Wikipedia:AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/September 2006/Hkelkar

Wikipedian filing request:



Other Wikipedians this pertains to:



Wikipedia pages this pertains to:



Questions:
Have you read the AMA FAQ?
 * Answer:Yes

'''How would you describe the nature of this dispute? (policy violation, content dispute, personal attack, other)'''
 * Answer: content dispute

'''What methods of Dispute Resolution have you tried so far? If you can, please provide wikilinks so that the Advocate looking over this case can see what you have done.'''
 * Answer:Discussion in Talk Page has failed despite my position being wholly or partially supported by several users. Bogus complaints and personal attacks have resulted.See my talk page User_talk:Hkelkar or Talk:Tipu Sultan.

What do you expect to get from Advocacy?
 * Answer: Some objective perspective as to the edit war presently going on and hopefully more experienced users could convince the fundamentalist (IMHO) elements from keeping their jingiosm off wikipedia and/or provide a solution acceptable to all.Personally I am happy to cooperate with any objective mediators.

Summary:
The issue is as follows. Tipu Sultan was the name of a Mohammedian ruler in the Kingdom of Mysore in Southern India in the 18th Century.Muslims in India generally regard him as a saint and have a kind of Rasputin syndrome when it comes to the figure, as well as a Cult of personality. He is regarded as a "patriot" for resisting (but ultimately failing to prevent) British colonial incursions into the area. However, historians such as Sita Ram Goel and others have raised issues with him. There are claims that he inflicted massive genocides on Hindus in the region, as well as his contempt for the local language (Kannada) which he actively tried to suppress and relpace with the more Semitic language Urdu. As of this moment, I have written the section here as objectively as I can, listing the other side of the debate (previously, the Goel & PCN Raja side was mentioned only briefly and ridiculed, together with apparent "refutations" of the claims of genocide with no citations or sources whatsoever).However, the users I have listed as (of the other side) have formed an informal cabal and have been mass-reverting to the POV & OR version, making ethnic/religious attacks (I have been called a "Hindu Fundamentalist" which is amusing as I am not even a Hindu) in the Talk page. Further POV in the article is where he is mentioned as a "Patriot","Linguist" and a "Freedom Fighter" (in the latest version as of now). This is not written in a neutral narrative and maintained as fact despite the points that:
 * He couldn't be a "patriot" of anything as India as a nation did not exist back then (he was the monarch of a tiny and relatively insignificant kingdom and his loyalties lay exclusively to his lineage/tribe/kingdom and loyalty to a kingdom is hardly "patriotic"). However, he is generally regarded as a "patriot" though the article does not use that narrative.
 * It is mentioned that he is a "Linguist" based on a single sentence in a partisan website. Yet, no linguistic works are cited. It is true that he was bilingual, perhaps even trilingual. However, many people of nobility spoke multiple languages in India and none of them are regarded as "Linguists".If he was a "scholar of language" then surely his works would have been documented.None of those (I think nonexistent) works are cited though.
 * The term "Freedom Fighter" (mentioned/that was mentioned) is equally laughable as there was no "Freedom" to fight for. India was divided into kingdoms, principalities, military dictatorships and Islamic theocracies.Opposition to the colonialist British does not constitute "Fighting for Freedom" as Tipu only cared for his kingdom and his authoritarian rule over the region.He is "regarded" (irrationally) as a "Freedom Fighter" but again, the narrative is not neutral.

I have made corrections as of now but the users may revert as no resolution has been achieved in the talk page.Muslim (presumably) users have even asserted that because Tipu is regarded as a "saint" he should be respected on wikipedia. I have responded that his "sainthood" (bear in mind that no Islamic cleric has declared him a saint or any Mohammedian equivalent) is irrelevant to his status on wikipedia and our edits need to remain neutral and scholarly.No coherent response.

Furthermore, there is a contemporary controversy concerning him that has been deleted completely by the Mohammedian editors (still is as of the latest version at this time). The version where this was entered is here.

I believe that this edit is completely neutral and non-partisan but it was removed by the cabal and more insults made both in my user page and talk page.

I also believe that claims that he "fathered" or "originated" modern rocketry are absurdly exaggerated and his involvement with rockets (actually firecrackers) should be toned down and narrative neutralized.

ADD:User:Mujeerkhan has extended the olive branch, so to speak, and seems to be the most reasonable one of the lot. He is receptive to mediation as stated in the talk page.

UPDATE:User:Mujeerkhan tried to create a POV-fork AMA request at AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/October 2006/Mujeerkan (presently a candidate for speedy deletion).I have copy-pasted his version of the summary (itself a copy-paste + POV'ised job of my original request).His version is below:

Mujeerkhan Asserts:

The issue is as follows. Tipu Sultan was the name of a Indian ruler in the Kingdom of Mysore in Southern India in the 18th Century.He is regarded as a "patriot" for resisting (but ultimately failing to prevent) British colonial incursions into the area. Some users have made making ethnic/religious attacks against me and user User:Hkelkar ( as discussed in in the article) who has made statements like Islamic Thinkers Society which has links to terrorism, I tired to explain that this reference was [] which i can say its similar to alzajeera but worth to be referred and [] which is clearly indian website on human rights in India and when i tried to link this references to his references like [] and [] which both spread fundamentalist, extremist ideas that leads to communal hatred in india and when i tried to say that if the references stated by the other user is fundamentalist then why not yours, he said " Remove my verifiable edits and that is vandalism" and user TerryJ-Ho was against this idea.He also said that "entire countries in the muslim world that massacre non-muslims and spread hate against them"  and user Mysorebhai warned him in this regard and User:Hkelkar"The fact remains that every single thing that I said was correct". When i tired to make corrections in the articles which where edited by other/previous users which was not related to the "conflict" of the article, he remarked my efforts as "rubbish" and user Naziakhanum tired to explain her remarks were not answered by User:Hkelkar. For time there was a good discussion between both of us and suddenly he again showed his colours. when Shezaad786 tried to put up facts User:Hkelkar again said "nationalist/religious jingoism hard at work"

His other comments were

"but here we have a particularly nasty breed of localized Islamist tribalism at work" "mohammedian" term is a direct insult to muslims as they are followers of Allah and regard mohamad as a messenger. "fundamentalist nutbags reverted it anyway"

All these show he has acted in a racial, extremist, immoral, uncivil, hurting other relegious sentiments.

Talk page. in the article is where he is mentioned as a "Patriot","Linguist" and a "Freedom Fighter".
 * He was a "linguist" [](he was the monarch of a vast area of land and relatively significant kingdom)[]
 * he is a "patriot" [] is a indian post website which clearly shows and says "Tipu Sultan patriot" this was termed as partisan by User:Hkelkar
 * The term "Freedom Fighter" [] clearly depicts him as the first freedom fighter of india.

All these terms were argued when there was credible evidence that linked the above terms to tipu. But at present this is not shown in the article as some user has edited them

Lastly, i had also given credible information on rocketry where tipu is mentioned as "perfected" for serious purposes [] which is an indian defence website and The Indian President remarks on tipu []

This is from a leading indian newspaper which says tipu "fathered" rocketry [], indian newspaper where the indian President wanted to know how tipu built the rocket [], indian newspaper []

On the issue of relegious tolerance and anti kannada there were a number of articles, website which were credible were also disapproved by other members which are mentioned and discussed Talk:Tipu Sultan I tired to "turn away" from some time but to no avail, i tried to warn him of edits which amounted to more than 3-4 a day. tried to negiotiate matters with him and also conflits between him and other members. If you have a clear look in the discussion you can find out that a reasonable members were against his ideas. There is a user vikramji who is a sock puppet of Vgowda as claimed by srs Inspite of all the proff, articles which I/users have put forth were rejected by User:Hkelkar all the above inspite that the articles are from defence, newspapers, government website. The picture clearly shows that he wants to run the article on his own terms despite other members appeals.Also he does not take positive points from a point of view but insist to make rather all statements on negative terms. 

Discussion:
Similar request filed at AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/October 2006/Mujeerkan. -Royalguard11 (Talk·Desk) 03:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Another request, in the same vein, filed at AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/October 2006/Uzumaki - there seems to be a pattern emerging - I'll take on this case, and see what happens with regards to the other two (deletion tag removed from the other - just let it run its course).  M  a  rtinp23  20:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * "In the same vein"? What "vein" is that exactly?Please be more specific.Hkelkar 00:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I should have clarified. I'm just referring to the fact that they all seem (or did seem, without close examination) to be realated to similar disputes.    M  a  rtinp23  16:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Followup:
When the case is finished, please take a minute to fill out the following survey:

Did you find the Advocacy process useful?
 * Answer:Definitely

Did your Advocate handle your case in an appropriate manner?
 * Answer:Yes

On a scale of 1 (worst) to 5 (best), how polite was your Advocate?
 * Answer:5

On a scale of 1 to 5, how effective do you feel your Advocate was in solving the problem?
 * Answer:5

On a scale of 1 to 5, how effective do you feel the Advocacy process is altogether?
 * Answer:5

If there were one thing that you would like to see different in the Advocacy process, what would it be?
 * Answer:Couple dispute resolution with admin action against vandalistic and WP:NPA/sockpuppet violating participants.

If you were to deal with this dispute again, what would you do differently, if anything?
 * Answer:Can't think of anything. Maybe if it went a little faster...

AMA Information
Case Status: closed

Advocate Status:
 * Hi, I'll be your advocate. I'll take a careful look through your case, and will be copy-pasting the text from here onto my desk, where I will conduct all of the case business.  I would be grateful if you could post any comments there.  I'll probably get started advocating for you after I've thoroughly researched the case - probably tomorrow eventing (UTC) - sorry for the delay, and if anything changes with the case, please just mention it on my desk :)  Thanks  M  a  rtinp23  20:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Marked as closed (please see my desk M  a  rtinp23  19:13, 18 October 2006 (UTC)