Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive144

Community-imposed revert limitation?

 * Miyokan is currently blocked for 10 days. I suggest he post his comments on his talk page and someone can copy them over to here.

aka

This chap's an incorrigible revert-warrior, with eight blocks for edit-warring under these 2 different accounts, and a good deal more edit-warring in his contributions that he has not been blocked for. He can write ok content, but when it comes to disputes goes completely haywire in a manner both tendentious and disruptive. These disputes are usually related to recent Russian history and contemporary Russian politics, due to his intense Russian nationalist perspective. I suggest we, as a community, formally limit him to one revert per page per day for a period of a year, excepting obvious vandalism. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 15:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support generally in any cases like this. This is the best way to keep people that would or could otherwise be decent content editors from being totally booted. Lawrence Cohen  §  t / e  15:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Always better to try to reform than ban, so I support.  MBisanz  talk 19:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Nice to give this user some time to think about himself. This user has been doing the same thing on other articles and with other users.  I have been watching him for some time now, so I think this should do some good. —  Nuclear  Vacuum  19:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Object - too strict. —TreasuryTag —t —c 19:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support As a person's history of problems gets longer and longer, there is an expectation that something will be done. Proper enforcement of the policies may have a beneficial effect on a number of intractable disputes, especially those that involve strong national feelings. This revert limitation seems rather innocuous compared to blocking. EdJohnston (talk) 20:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. Sounds quite logical. Qst (talk) 20:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Why not hit them gently with the carrot, rather hard with a big stick? LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:38, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support - Seems logical based on his constant conflicts, users that edit war over politics are usually the harder to convince otherwise. Carrots? -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  20:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose - A year is a bit much, and might as well be permanent. If this is to be a temporary injunction in an effort to teach a lesson (and it should be), it should be a month or two at most, for now. The user can then be blocked or the time period stepped-up if they still don't seem to be "getting it". Equazcion •✗/C • 21:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Concern that it would do more harm than good. I've interacted with User:Miyokan on South Ossetia where he was a very positive force in that article to add much needed neutrality. From what I can see from Turkey it looks like Miyokan was in the right however he did make more than three reverts in 24hrs. Eventhough he's not a new user he might not understand the whole dispute resolution process as it is complicated to figure out. I suggest someone explain the dispute resolution process to him and let him know how to deal with situations where he is right without repeated reverts. My concern with moving the electric fence to 1RR might just mean more frequent crossing of the electric fence. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Dispute resolution is not that hard to learn. He's had eight blocks in just under a year. That's enough time to get to grips with the rules. Moreschi (talk) (debate)
 * If the longest he's been blocked for is ten days, I would rather see more stepped blocking first, rather than resorting to this exotic sentencing idea. The logistical complication this creates just isn't worth it yet. In other words, I'd rather block someone for 2 weeks and then a month and then 2 months, rather than create a "special situation" for an entire year. Imposing 1RR on someone for a year is in a way a punishment for everyone else who has to uphold that restriction. Again it's not worth it yet. He hasn't had to sit through any substantially tough blocks yet, so let's see if one of those gets the message across first. Equazcion •✗/C • 13:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Plus: I think the point of the suggestion is to be more lenient with this user, but I think the method is somewhat misguided. I have a feeling that given the choice, he would rather take even a month block than have to walk on the eggshells of 1RR for an entire year. I know I would.Equazcion •✗/C • 13:33, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. Unlike the longer block, 1RR is a good measure, because it exactly addresses the problem - RR warring. This does not prevent his positive involvement in the project if he can improve his style. And I think he can really improve a lot. I know him well. He can exercise self-restraint and discipline. Biophys (talk) 23:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose Too strict. While I agree that he does seem to engage in a lot of edit warring, and that isn't the correct way to solve disputes, I know first hand that he is a good faith editor and puts a great deal of effort into his work. Put yourself in the shoes of a (proud) American trying to edit American/history/cold war related articles on the Russian wikipedia and I think you might have a better perspective of his situation. I don't think that just looking at a number (of blocks, reverts, whatever) and deciding a punishment based on that is appropriate in this case. I think this highlights one of the most obvious and inherent flaws of wikipedia policy as a whole, the fact that it alienates those without a western conformist point of view, and promotes the "friends backing friends" aspect of edit warring, which goes hand-in-hand and allows some people to get away with edit warring while not others. All I can see this resulting in is the eventual permanent block of a positive and well informed contributer. Krawndawg (talk) 01:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What "Russian shoes" and "western conformist point of view" are you talking about? I am a Russian user, and I edited a lot of political articles. I had absolutely no problems with "western bias" and with good Russian users. Wikipedia is not a democracy, but rules are the same for everyone. Let's not bring nationalist feelings here.Biophys (talk) 02:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Biophys, this has nothing to do with nationalist feelings. I said point of view. Please pay more attention, I am discussing content not feelings. The fact that you contribute exclusively negative things about your country to wikipedia does not help your case that you "have no problem" with western bias (note, again, I didn't say anything about bias in my post, nor did I make any comments or inquiries directed at you to warrant such a reply.) Krawndawg (talk) 02:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment I don't believe this is necessary. I have been editing for over a month with no edit warring under Berkunt, check for yourself. My main work has consisted of fighting vandalism. When my contributions get reverted in almost all cases do not bother to revert them back, and in the rare cases when I do, I usually go to the talk page before. After that I do not bother with a third revert.--Miyokan (talk) 07:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

USER:Drstrangelove57
Hi all, long time no see (ha). Several months ago (1 March 2008) I trimmed the excessively long plot summary at, per WP:PLOT, via one edit. Apparently the user mentioned above (Drstrangelove57) started edit warring and issuing personal attacks once this was done (I didn't pay much attention). I returned yesterday to find the excessive plot summary reinstated, which I again removed. I'm again on the receiving end of some nasty personal attacks. Some highlights: Other really interesting stuff This is long term and completely unacceptable. Any help is appreciated. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 14:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * this guy is an unrepentant scumbag with an axe to grind
 * thought that since you lobbied to have the detailed summary destroyed...
 * This edit supported by this one.
 * Rant.
 * Another rant.
 * Final rant.
 * Rant & attack re: RFC
 * ...some wiki-thug like Blaxthos, a proven subversive that only edits when it is in his own political or personal interests...
 * Trashy!
 * Changes others comments! Unbelievable.


 * I've warned the user about personal attacks, citing the two diffs from this past week in the warning. I concur that there is a long pattern of incivility here, but I don't think a block would prevent harm to the project at this point - it would be punitive, at least in the absence of further shenanigans. No comment on the content dispute regarding A Simple Plan, but more eyes there probably wouldn't be bad, either. UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 14:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I've protected the page to prevent further edit warring until the disputes can be settled amicably. Edit warring never solves any issue, especially when they are peppered with personal attacks and character assassinations. seicer &#x007C; talk  &#x007C; contribs  16:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Unprotected, now that user Drstrangelove57 has used his right to vanish. Fram (talk) 07:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Have you tried other forms of dispute resolution yet (e.g. a WP:RFC on User Conduct)? If not, I would suggest you look into them as they might help. Sasquatch t|c 17:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Modoufa
Odd case, here. It seems that I had advised him on a speedy deletion back in January. So had at least one other user. Well, he's back with the same text dump as before. No other edits I can see. Can someone take a look at what's going on? Thanks. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 23:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It rather looks like he had hoped you had gone away, and wouldn't notice. I would tend to ignore it for now, hope that the editor becomes a useful contributor, and zap him the next time there is an attempt to recreate the article. I don't think warning them further is going to provide them with any more clue. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Permanent move protection for articles on countries
Some of you might have noticed this persistent vandal who's been moving articles on countries to "HAGGER" every single day. Since articles on countries are unlikely to be reasonably moved to a new location (and definitely not without a proper listing at WP:RM, lengthy discussion and adequate closure of the move proposal by an admin), perhaps they should be granted permanent move protection. That way we would avert any move disruption including this HAGGER pest. Please provide feedback. Hús ö  nd  11:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd support that, even in the face of WP:DENY. Rudget   (Help?) 12:59, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Count me in. Both Irpen and I mentioned the general idea in the thread above (see Grawp). - Regards, Ev (talk) 13:21, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, good idea. We ought to move-protect high visibility articles (which have no reason to be moved). Hut 8.5 14:27, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Really bad idea. Block the abuser (s). Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit. Let's not go down the slippery slope of prophylactic implementation of page and move protection because they 'might' be vandalized by lots of people. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 19:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Move protection doesn't prevent anyone from editing, but it does stop high-profile articles from vandalism from an extraordinarily prolific vandal. There is no reason to move country articles without discussion on the talk page. In the odd chance of a page move being decided through consensus (see Burma), an admin can make the move.  Horologium  (talk) 19:07, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The protection policy states that pages can be move protected under three circumstances: "Pages subject to persistent page-move vandalism; Pages subject to a page name dispute; and Visible pages which have no reason to be moved, such as the Administrators' noticeboard." Articles on internationally recognized countries meet two of the three criteria, the first (thanks to a certain persistent vandal) and third (because they're all vital articles). In the unlikely event one of these articles does need to be renamed, an admin can take care of it at WP:RM. This seems quite logical and shouldn't be harmful in the least. Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 22:05, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There's no point. S/he will just move to some other set of articles.  States, cities, actor bios, etc.  It's just moving the problem from one place to another.  It's not practical and it's not helpful.  —Wknight94 (talk) 22:09, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I support permanent move protection for countries. This is not anticipating a possible future problem, it's responding to an actual problem. Blocking the type of vandals who are listed in Long term abuse is an endless task, and may never be finished. By comparison, move protection is easy. Leave things movable where the likelihood of a good-faith move being needed is higher. EdJohnston (talk) 22:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's pointless, for the same reasons I do not allow semi-protection on my talk page - he'll just move elsewhere. It's an endless shell-game when protection is involved; the only pages that deserve a move-prot are articles he particularly favors and userpages he hits. -<font color="32CD32">Jéské  <font color="4682B4">(v^_^v E pluribus unum) 23:34, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, he'll move elsewhere. But since he seems to be sticking to country articles for the moment, I think that it will be an effective solution at least for those articles, which are by the way among the most viewed on Wikipedia. Articles on countries shouldn't be moving anywhere without lengthy discussions so why having them with the move tool enabled for all? It's a blatant invitation to vandals. Furthermore, move protection is certainly better than leaving everything just as it is (not unless some of you would find any joy in reverting Hagger's moves every day). Hús  ö  nd  03:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) No point, per Wassupwestcoast and Wknight94. Stifle (talk) 21:07, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I would like the HAGGAR/Grawp bullshit to stop as well. However, as already noted by many, arbitrarily protecting one class of articles will only cause him to bounce to other articles, not stop him, and only restrict legitimate edits to those protected articles.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  04:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Preventing articles like Australia from being moved doesn't "restrict legitimate edits", because there is no way a unilateral move of that article can possibly be legitimate. So we prevent move-vandalism with no downside. I support this, so long as we don't move-protect any country articles with disputed names e.g. East Timor/Timor Leste. Hesperian 04:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I move-protected a number of country pages that were vandalmoved before seeing this discussion. The main objection to this seems to be that he will move on to other articles. Ys, obviously, but he is clearly going for high visibility pages, where his vandalism has the most impact. If we can drive him to less visible pages, it may become less fun (best case scenario), and not so many readers will see his vandalism before it gets reverted. I don't see the downside to this move-protection (obviously not edit-protection), but people are free to undo it of course. Fram (talk) 10:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The HAGGER/Grawp nonsense hasn't been just countries, so protecting the country pages will only move the vandal(s) to other pages.--Fabrictramp (talk) 17:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Support move protection. As noted earlier, this does not restrict editing of the articles, nor does it adversely restrict editors as the pages should not be moved without extensive discussion. Like it or not, we have to accept that certain high-profile articles require extra protection to avoid disruption. --Ckatz chatspy  19:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support move protection. There are a few possibilities here:
 * The protection is done and he stops (unlikely, but the best case scenario)
 * The protection is done and he moves on to other topics he can move (likely, but since those articles won't ever legitimately be moved without consensus it won't harm the articles so there is no downside and the upside is that at the very least his edits will effect less important articles. A better scenario then we currently have)
 * We do nothing and he continues doing it until we can argue more strongly that it's "persistent"
 * I think #2 is what will happen, but will still be better then the status quo. Also, I think it might be useful to do a long term move block, but not permanent.  A month perhaps?  Then test the waters again. Chris M. (talk) 15:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Related issue - damage to watchlists
I think my watchlist may be suffering as a result of these page moves. Today a couple of countries, American Samoa and (I think) Antigua Anguilla appeared on my watchlist. Is this because other articles, articles on my watchlist, have been moved to or from these names? If so, there must now be two other articles that are no longer on my watchlist, and I have no idea how to figure out which ones they were :-(  S HEFFIELD S TEEL TALK 03:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * As far as I can tell, articles only get added, not removed, by pagemoves. This means your watchlist will tend to grow as a result of pagemove vandalism. --Carnildo (talk) 05:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, thanks. That's a relief. S HEFFIELD S TEEL TALK 13:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

User talk:HeatherRoseF
Bad uploads. Someone should look at the rest of them & possibly delete and block. – <font color="Indigo">Mike .<font color="Indigo">lifeguard  &#124; <font color="Indigo">@en.wb 11:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Whats wrong with wikipedia?
I really wasnt sure where to bring this up, so point me in the right direction if needs be. Is it me or has wikipedia become really slow in recent months? I often find that im not allowed to edit until the server catches up, pages an locked, the site is down etc. Is there something wrong or am i the only one having this problem, cheers. Realist 2 ( 'Come Speak To Me' ) 17:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No, you're not the only one. No idea why that is. Dorftrottel (ask) 18:04, May 7, 2008
 * It was just shut down for the last ten minutes or so. Pretty sure it wasn't just me because nothing on my watch list was edited in that time period. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 18:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That would've been due to an upgrade that caused a database failure. The general slowness I can't explain and wonder as well about.  MBisanz  talk 18:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Server just went down. Everything went nutso in #wikipedia-en. Nuts, I say! Bstone (talk) 18:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Forget this, I'm going back to Brittannica, who's with me? Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 18:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * LOL. I couldn't get any of my socks logged in.  Er, I mean....<font color="#21421E" face="comic sans ms">Keeper   |  <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">76   |  <font color="#ff0000"> Disclaimer  18:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Gwynand, i could never. ;-), but seriously, its getting worse and worse. Realist 2  ( 'Come Speak To Me' ) 18:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * You haven't been around long enough to remember the really bad days when the site would be down for hours at a time and error messages were common. Things have been pretty good these last 2 years or so.  Dragons flight (talk) 18:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed, reference February_2005_server_crash and one in 2006 caused by hurricane activity. You think the channels were bad now, the overflow crashed freenode IIRC.   Keegan talk 19:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, and I once 1 crashed teh Wiki for 45 seconds. Woot!   Keegan talk 20:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * 2005 was bad? That year was far better than the ones before it -- have a look at this archived page for the days when the servers sucked so badly we were never sure if the servers were running. Yes, once all of the Wikimedia projects ran on 3 servers (one was broken, the other was unresponsive), & we hated it. Weren't no "good old days" in that regard. -- llywrch (talk) 21:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And back in 1998, we wrote out Wikipedia in spiral notebooks with scratchy Rolling Riter pens, and whenever someone made a change we had to scratch it aaaaaalll out and start over. (And the only time we had to do THAT was when we weren't walking fourteen miles to work in three-foot of snow, uphill both ways--BAREFOOT.)Gladys J Cortez 01:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Luxury!! Orderinchaos 16:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to donate cash so we can buy more servers. :) -- Cat chi? 18:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If wiki needs money then maybe we should start accepting advertisement offers lol. -- Realist 2 ( 'Come Speak To Me' ) 18:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * OMG, please don't start that thread again...(not that you have yourself, realist, just, OMG dont. <font color="#21421E" face="comic sans ms">Keeper   |  <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">76   |  <font color="#ff0000"> Disclaimer  18:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * OOPS!!! ;-( Realist 2  ( 'Come Speak To Me' ) 19:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I would like to start a deletion review of Encyclopedia Dramatica
As a new source has just been published which focuses on the site and only on the site: (see here). However, I am afraid to do so for several reasons. First, there have been three separate reviews started for the site in (I believe) the past week or so, and I am afraid that my review will be closed immediately for being "too soon after the last review" (though all of the recent reviews were closed immediately and did not go through). I will explain to the best of my knowledge why the recent reviews were closed. The first of the three was started by myself but was closed immediately because I did not have a draft of the article at the time. I returned with a draft and started a second review the same day which was closed immediately by an editor who was not an admin who cited "disruption" as the reason. My attempts to reopen the review resulted in me being blocked for "the disruptive way in which I advocated the recreation of that artice" (though what that way is has still yet to be explained) and the review was never reopened (Here is a link to the two reviews I am describing). The most recent review was started by an editor other than myself without my prior knowledge using my draft as the draft of the article, but it was closed immediately for three reasons (only one of them being valid): 1. Too soon since the last review (since the article had not undergone a serious deletion review, this should not have applied) 2. Nothing new has changed, and 3. Just, no. (Yes, that was one of the reasons given. Here is the link) The second of the two reasons was however valid, as while my version of the draft was an attempt to make User:Shii's draft more in line with the sources, it did not contain any new sources, so that was a legitimate reason to close the review. But now, I have a new source, and one which covers Encyclopedia Dramatica exclusively, and I would like to start a real deletion review with this new source in mind, but I am afraid that doing so will upset certain editors, result in an edit war, and possibly result in me being blocked for "disruption" again, so I am giving prior notice of my actions. And also, I know that many editors get tired of hearing this, as they honestly believe that this site doesn't deserve an article here, but please try to remain objective on this issue. The site is crass and gross and I don't blame anyone for not wanting there to be an article on it (though on the other hand, the more public exposure it gets, the more likely it will be pressured into toning is attacks and content down), but Wikipedia is not censored, and finding something crass does not justify it not having an article if it truly does merit it. I personally find Saddam Hussein (for lack of a better word) "crass", but that doesn't mean that I think his article should be deleted. If you truly believe that ED does not have sufficient media coverage to warrent an article, I respect that, but I also honestly believe that much of the uproar that centers around the idea of creating an article on ED comes from the fact that it is a very crass website (until recently, for example, the rationale for why the article is protected for recreation read "Encyclopedia Dramatica will never be recreated. Ever."). So anyway, while I know that I am not required to do this, I would like to get prior approval before I start a new deletion review.--<font color="purple" face="comic sans ms">Urban <font color="red" face="Papyrus">Rose  19:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The link at the top says that the "article content does not exist". I don't think it's wise to go into a ED DRV with an essentially 404'd source. -<font color="32CD32">Jéské  <font color="4682B4">(v^_^v E pluribus unum) 19:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I just fixed the link. It should work now.--<font color="purple" face="comic sans ms">Urban <font color="red" face="Papyrus">Rose  19:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with your substantive point, but you're probably not doing your cause any good by pushing it so hard, so repeatedly... you come off as rather obsessed (speaking as one prone to obsessive behavior myself, so I know it when I see it). *Dan T.* (talk) 19:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ummm.. there is actually an ongoing DRV for Encyclopedia Dramatica (yes, yet another one) but this one will seemingly not be WP:SNOWed. So this is kind of moot.  Mango juice talk 19:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

User:I'm On Base
I'm concerned that this editor is not here to improve the encyclopedia, but rather user it as a MySpace. His contributions show that he spends all of his time in userspace, and none in mainspace. He has started giving a challenge on his userpage. When I asked him about this challenge, I made a point that instead of telling other users to edit an article as a part of a challenge, he should work on the article himself, and ask for help if he needed it. He responded by telling me he is not a good editor, and telling me to be bold and edit the article (which were my words in a comment to him). He has since blanked his page, but you can see my comments in his talk page history, and his comments on my talk page. He recently has had his IP blocked, and I believe been accused of sockpuppeting, I think. He also had an RfA, which he tried to re-open a few minutes ago, and opened an RfB for himself immediately after he tried to re-open the RfA. King  iMat  thew   20  08  22:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Update: He added a fair-use image onto his userspace, and I removed it, explaining that a fair-use image is not allowed on a userpage, and twice he reverted. I gave him proof that it is not allowed, he asked me if I'd like help editing an article to "make up for it." I then politely said that I was fine, but he should edit the article he used for his challenge. A few minutes later, he changed his challenge from editing an article, to creating a "cool" userbox by Sunday. King   iMat  thew   20  08  23:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Has this user done anything specifically against any policy or guideline? --70.109.223.188 (talk) 14:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The stated goal of this project is to create an encyclopedia; people who join but do not contribute meaningfully to this goal potentially take time away from those who do. A review of his edits will show that he has not contributed to this goal; so yes, he has been acting against established policy. Various editors like iMatthew have been encouraging him to contribute, because the alternative is to block the account indefinitely. -- llywrch (talk) 21:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * So should any actions be taken? King   iMat  thew   20  08  21:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe the problem is getting worse. King   iMat  thew   20  08  00:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

IINAA, but I advise you, iMatthew, to let it be. I'm On Base is not yet making much of a contribution to the encyclopedia, but nor are his actions threatening it. Who knows; when he gets bored with his userpage navel-gazing, he might blossom into a useful editor. There's little except friction to be gained by continuing to keep him under the microscope. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There's a pseudo-precedent for this: User:Nothing444, though Nothing was being a bit disruptive in addition to not contributing much to the encyclopedia. Nousernamesleft copper, not wood 02:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Who's abusing WP:TALK ?
Following a suggestion at WQA, User:John Carter posted a thread, asking for comments re opening one or two User conduct RfCs, at Talk:Hogenakkal Falls where the conduct occurred. One of the subjects, User:Sarvagnya, blanked the post with an edit comment indicating that JC was abusing the Talk page. Another editor User:Wikiality123 then restored the post and added a comment, effectively saying that it is relevant. Sarvagnya removed the thread again citing WP:TALK. I restored the thread and added my own opinion. An editor I've never seen before (User:KNM) then blanked the thread a third time.

Can anyone figure this out?
 * Is it disruptive abusing WP:TALK to discuss user conduct on the Talk page of an article? What if the article is protected due to edit warring?
 * Is it okay to delete another editor's Talk page post when it's not directly related to improving the article? What if it's related to disruption of that same page? S HEFFIELD S TEEL TALK 22:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Article Talk pages are for article RFCs, not for user RFCs. There's a different process for that.  <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix  talk  22:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * To clarify, John Carter wasn't attempting to host an RfC on the page, just discuss one with the various editors involved. I've added the diff above. All he said was "It has been suggested on the page for the extant wikiquette alert that user conduct RfCs be filed regarding the two parties named above. Comments?" So my question really comes down to: Is it inappropriate to announce or discuss an RfC on the article Talk page where the involved users are to be found? S HEFFIELD S TEEL TALK 23:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * My view (IINAA) is that it is in order to use an article talk page to discuss the possibility of a user RfC where the subject of the RfC has given rise to the RfC concern on that article. It is not in order - and clearly not in order - for such a discussion to be removed. Other editors may well question or disagree with the discussion, but have no mandate to remove the discussion. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Accountcreator usergroup enabled
Just a notice, further input on how/when of assigning, etc would be welcome here. SQL <sup style="font-size: 5pt;color:#999">Query me! 01:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

New BAG candidacy
This is a note that I have nominated myself for BAG. You can find the nomination, and voice your opinion, at Wikipedia talk:Bot Approvals Group.

Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 02:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Notice: ArbCom granting Sam Korn checkuser and oversight rights
Given that the Arbitration Committee has promised to inform the community when they intend to grant people checkuser and/or oversight rights, this is notice that there is currently a discussion ongoing to grant User:Sam Korn checkuser and oversight rights on the English Wikipedia.

He previously served as an Arbitrator, and was a checkuser and oversighter. However, when the identity confirmation system was implimented, he did not confirm his identity and voluntarily requested that his rights be removed. As such, they were not removed controversially. He has recently asked that we grant him his rights again, as soon as we recieve confirmation of his identity. At present, it seems the Committee will be granting him checkuser/oversight rights, since his rights were not removed controversially and he now wishes to have them back.

Any comments regarding this discussion may be sent posted here, or mailed to the Arbitration Committee private mailing list if privacy is preferred. Contact details for the Committee mailing list are here. Please set the subject of your e-mail to "Comments on granting rights to Sam Korn", to let us easier sort the comments together. Although the Committee will take any and all comments into consideration, please note that the final decision resides with us.

For the Arbitration Committee,

Deskana (talk) 21:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * As long as he did not abuse or misuse it, this decision is fine with me. Welcome back. For future reference you may like to post on Community noticeboard for general notices like this  Majorly  (talk) 21:46, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Except that it's a redlink. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 02:32, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Template:Announcements/Community bulletin board was probably what he meant. It is transcluded at Community Portal. Community noticeboard was (briefly) the name for what became Community sanction noticeboard (it got moved there). It then got turned from a redirect into a noticeboard by User:Al tally, but then got deleted after a brief amount of discussion. The deletion was probably an over-reaction, as the discussion hadn't really finish. The discussion should probably continue elsewhere. Also, there are now a lot of redlinks for Community noticeboard, most of which should probably point at WP:CSN. Accordingly, I'm recreating it as a redirect to fix those redlinks. Carcharoth (talk) 08:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, I restored the history, as the reason given for deletion wasn't really a reason. Carcharoth (talk) 08:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Right. I requested it to be deleted. Maybe I should use a new sig for my new identity? Al Tally a.k.a. Majorly 16:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * He's a good admin, and frequents #wikipedia-en-unblock on IRC a lot. He seems trustworthy, and the fact that he gave up the tools voluntarily says a fair bit in his favor. No argument here. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 21:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sam Korn is one of the few individuals that I can recall having a disagreement over interpretation of some policy - although I don't recall which one it was, since it was some time ago... This likely means that they are eminently suitable for CU and Oversight. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:34, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I would definitely trust this user if he were to reacquire the tools. - Rjd0060 (talk) 00:34, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Since he has had them before, and had the rights removed in an uncontroversial manner, I don't see any reasons why not. <font face="Trebuchet MS">Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 00:40, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I would as well. For the record, I have an outstanding request for Oversight with ArbCom that I made some time ago. ++Lar: t/c 00:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No objections, I don't see any reason to believe that he will misuse the privileges. Seraphimblade Talk to me 00:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

No objections. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 02:32, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No objections, and taking note of Lar's comment I think it is logical that checkusers who are admins on enwiki should have oversight as well. Looking at the list of checkusers, out of about 30 enwiki checkusers there are only four who don't have oversight. EdJohnston (talk) 02:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow! Well, I certainly trust you - you've an excellent reputation. Welcome :) - A l is o n  ❤ 03:15, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Works for me.  MBisanz  talk 03:19, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I approve. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:20, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I trust him. Incidcentally, I would not mind the community also granting checkuser rights (in a manner agreed upon between the local wiki and the Foundation) NonvocalScream (talk) 16:30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

This is a travesty. The Arbitrary Committee has no legitimate authority granting any sort of access of this type. This is properly the purview of the community at large. I urge everyone to do everything in their power to keep his use of these tools from having any practical effect. Kurt Weber ( Go Colts! ) 23:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What the hell are you on about?  Al Tally  (talk) 23:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Kurt is having issues with reality (again). Raul654 (talk) 23:20, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I have no opinion in the matter, but there are people that feel that ArbCom doesn't have any legitimate authority. It's not limited to Kurt, here. —  scetoaux (T|C)  23:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I can sympathize with Kurt on this, but I am not at all certain why he is rolling Sam Korn into a policy problem. I would suggest, at least as informally as this thread indicates, that the community has no objection to Sam having these rights. Resolute 23:19, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Given that there have been no objections from anyone in the community, nor any objections from any Arbitrators, Sam Korn has been granted CheckUser and Oversight rights. For the Arbitration Committee, Deskana (talk) 19:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you meant "no objections except from Kurt" :) ++Lar: t/c 10:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "No objections except for Kurt" is a redirect to "No objections". -- Relata refero (disp.) 14:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Can we stop singling Kurt out, please? Deskana should apologise for the implicit snub that Kurt is not part of the community. I presume that was unintentional. Raul should apologise for what he said. And Lar and Relata refaro should think about what sort of culture they are promoting when they send the signal that it is OK to make fun of a single objector. I have no objection to Sam Korn being granted these rights, but that is only because I don't know Sam Korn well enough to judge whether he should be supported in this or not. I certainly don't have a problem with Kurt objecting. He is making the perfectly valid point (which others have also made) that some community input is desirable. I think that was the point of this thread, in case people have forgotten that? Carcharoth (talk) 15:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It has been pointed out to me that Kurt insulted the Arbitration Committee by calling them the "Arbitrary Committee", thus my public remonstrance of those commenting on Kurt was unbalanced. I'm happy to set the record straight and say that Kurt should apologise for calling the Arbitration Committee the "Arbitrary Committee". Deskana has also confirmed that no slight of Kurt was intended. Carcharoth (talk) 17:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Kurt hasn't objected to Sam, he's objected to the idea that checkuser/oversight rights aren't given by the community, but rather a tiny group of individuals with no accountability to anyone. However, since Sam lost the rights voluntarily in good standing, it's hardly an issue. It could have been an issue though. I have had issues with promotions by ArbCom in the past but my concerns were brushed aside as unimportant. If there is a single objection the right should not be granted, as this is seriously something that needs everyone's support, and any opposition means that there are checkusers out there not trusted by the community.  Al Tally  (talk) 16:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And while we're at it, the same should be true for the Arbitration Committee and Adminship, since we shouldn't have arbitrators or admins that aren't trusted by the community, either. --Conti|✉ 16:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Admins can't see people's IPs. There's a big difference.  Al Tally  (talk) 16:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, the point I was trying to make was that you will find not one (1) person who will get no oppose whatsoever nowadays, no matter what it's about. Especially considering there are certain people *cough* who oppose people on principle alone. --Conti|✉ 17:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, RfAs do still passed unopposed. 21 in 2008 so far, and that is not even including the ones where there are no opposes and some neutrals. It might be interesting to see how many of the single-oppose RfAs are due to certain patterns. Of the five single-opposed RfAs this year (that's over four months worth of data), there was one single-oppose by Nick, one single-oppose by Appletrees, two single-opposes by Anwar, and one single-oppose by Kurt Weber. Carcharoth (talk) 17:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And one single oppose by Iterator12n, not that I'm bitter. :-) <font color="#21421E" face="comic sans ms">Keeper  |  <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">76   |  <font color="#ff0000"> Disclaimer  17:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, I was looking at the single-opposes with no neutrals. I searched for "/1/0". Carcharoth (talk) 17:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I'm pleasantly surprised by the amount of unopposed RfAs. Still, an RfCheckuser would be an entirely different matter, since they'd gather much more attention, and therefore should probably be compared to RfBs instead. And the last unopposed RfB was in August 2004 (according to this). --Conti|✉ 18:00, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It's also been pointed out that we (the community) should consider thanking the arbitration committee for seeking our input on those that are appointed checkusers and oversighters. Do we approve of this and do we want them to continue doing this, is, I think, the simple question (I had been under the impression this was how it was normally done). Carcharoth (talk) 17:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That'd be like thanking the Mafia for asking for your input as to whether or not they should put you to bed with the fishes...Kurt Weber ( Go Colts! ) 02:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hail benevolent totalitarians. By the way Carcharoth, I'd like them not to approve their buddies as oversighters and checkusers. Let the community decide. Monobi (talk) 03:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Question on User:Plate King's block
Recently User:Gb blocked Plate King for being a sockpuppet of User:Spotteddogsdotorg. I asked Gb for the proof. Then 218.25.101.173 and 85.177.45.180 (both Tor exit node) left identical message   saying there is a conspiracy behind their goals, which is "to get good Wikipedia editors to go away". They also claim that they have an admin account to help with their goals and actions. I might be a bit paranoid, but it seems fishy for a user to be going bluff and spend the time to type a small essay. I would like to hear opinions from the community. <b style="color:#0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color:green;">Talk page</b> 03:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There's definitely some weird sockpuppet thing going on at U.S. license plate articles (see, for example, the history of Vehicle registration plates of Georgia). The socks leap out at you from that history, and a lot of them are "attack" usernames regarding a "Bradley".  I noticed this first a couple weekends ago, blocking at least one of them myself.  Notice that some of the sockpuppets include mysterious addresses and phone numbers with their edit summaries, as seen in their contribution histories (example; another example).  As of having an admin account -- a lot of persistent vandals and troublemakers claim that.  If only they knew how little it would help them.  Antandrus  (talk) 03:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Quite a bit of the IP's statement rings false, as well as claiming to have an admin account they claim to have an "IP spoofer" which would presumably be a program to allow them to edit under someone else’s IP. This would only be possible with very skilled hacking of the victims ISP or Wikipedia itself which is a doubtable occurence. -Icewedge (talk) 03:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * No wonder Plate King looks familiar with wiki-markup. For reference purposes, the link to CU is Suspected sock puppets/Bolly Nickers <b style="color:#0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color:green;">Talk page</b> 07:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

CAT:CSD backlog
Sure could use some reinforcements. They're ganging up on us!  bibliomaniac 1  5  04:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm tinkering away, but there's a couple issues. First is that many of these articles are being tagged A7 when there is an assertation of notability.  Or in some cases, such as this this one, the tag didn't even make sense.  It was marked as promotional, though the company was bought out by the government sixty years ago.  Waste of a speedy tag.  Second is the number of resumé-type submissions.  Those are easy to process, but have more fallout in terms of communication with the submitter.  Just observations.   Keegan talk 05:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Clarification on the Powell Duffryn link: it doesn't seem promotional to me. Seems like an actual history of the company.   Keegan talk 05:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That was me, sorry, tagged it for refs and the like instead. Apologies! <font face="monospace" color="#004080"> LegoTech ·(t)·(c) 06:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No worries LegoTech, it's why I didn't single out an editor. That just happened to be the closest tab open of about six.  Mistakes happen, there were just a plethora at CSD all at once.   Keegan talk 06:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Probably me too :) I discovered that if you pick "earliest" on new page patrol, you get the stuff thats 30 days old. Which is kind of nice, gives it enough time to "soak" and be given a chance to find its feet....but it also means lots of tags of various flavors.  I still consider myself a noob and try to read the articles and look at the policies when I'm not sure (like Music...I didn't know you weren't supposed to CSD albums...how odd!)  Its definitely a learning experience.  <font face="monospace" color="#004080"> LegoTech ·(t)·(c) 07:03, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If you think about it, not CSDing an album by a notable band is not odd. It will likely have reputable reviews by reliable sources, and notability forthwith.  Myspace and DIY albums are a different animal.  But we digress, you're doing a good job.   Keegan talk 07:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Gross incivility on the part of [Username removed]
See this diff. In the diff he refers to User:Dtobias as a "troll" and tells him that he is "unwelcome here" and also completely removes a discussion I started on his talk page concerning his closure of an earlier ED deletion review. It's also worth noting that in his comments, he blatantly admits to closing the review simply because of a personal distaste of ED. In his closure summary, he cited "just, no" as one of the reasons (see Here. I've informed him of this thread and I'm even considering requesting that he be desysopped, not so much because of the personal attacks (he also stated that he did not trust me), but because he has blatantly admitted to misusing his authority as an admin.--<font color="purple" face="comic sans ms">Urban <font color="red" face="Papyrus">Rose  21:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There's clearly an intensely personal dispute going on among a group of editors, and threads are being started here (see above) and at AN/I to pursue this. Probably if anyone uninvoved were to get involved (not a desirable task, I know, akin perhaps to the morning cleaning of the elephant house at the zoo), it should be to instruct all concerned to cease and desist, and to steer well clear of one another. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This has already been discussed tangentially at ANI in the earlier thread by Atren. This is just mischief making. DanT is well able to look after himself and doesn't need UrbanRose to fight his battles. Spartaz Humbug! 21:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * More at WP:SPIDER. Raymond Arritt (talk) 21:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, as Spartaz says, this has already been discussed. If Dan doesn't want to be called a troll, he might perhaps try not trolling me.  His sensitivity to the slightest hint of insult combined with his fierce determination to allow links to offsite attacks however vile speak to me of gross hypocrisy, but as I explained on ANI I find Dan to be irrational so that could just as easily explain the yawning disconnect in the standards he aplpies to others and those he insists are applied to him. Guy (Help!) 21:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Guy, see my comment above. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't just post this thread because of what Guy said to DanT. I also posted this because of Guy's first ignoring my post entirely, second because of Guy's blatant admission that he closed the ED deletion review because he personally dislikes the site, and third saying that he trusted Sceptre but not me (totally uncalled for) and fourth, removing my post on his talkpage altogether. This was about far more than him just calling DanT a troll.--<font color="purple" face="comic sans ms">Urban <font color="red" face="Papyrus">Rose  01:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * He didn't admit that, and it is, I feel, rather disingenuous to argue that he did. If I thought you were trolling, I'd probably remove your comment and ignore you myself.  Honestly, Urban Rose, give this one up.  Just one of more than fifty of your last edits has been concerning anything other than ED.  Sam Korn (smoddy) 15:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposal
Honestly, didn't we just do this two months ago? I think that - barring _major_ MSM coverage that would make the lack of an article a real embarassment to Wikipedia (hint: the sourcing in the drafts in the last few versions comes nowhere close to that) ED DRVs should be limited to at most one per year, just to limit the drama. --Random832 (contribs) 14:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Which was my point exactly. We reviewed this quite recently, not long before the first of Rose's three or four attempts, and the answer was no plus a lot of sturm und drang. We reviewed it in February and had a lengthy debate in March, resulting in endorse no article, and much as I know the drama queens are insistent that we debate this again every single time there is a new passing mention in the press somewhere, I don't think it's a productive use of anyone else's time. Guy (Help!) 17:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * We should put a 3-6 month break on this, if this current DRV (which should not be stopped, as many have weighed in) fails to show a consensus to recreate or relist in the end. Lawrence Cohen  §  t / e  18:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, too many are of the thought that if a drv doesn't give you what you want, then do another drv. We need to have some sort of moratorium on all this. Wizardman  18:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Would there be any harm in a general limit on DRV? Any one article, no more than every 31 days? Lawrence Cohen  §  t / e  18:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I can see a potential harm if the article's subject becomes definitively notable not long after a DRV fails. Though perhaps this is a case where we could simply invoke {{WP:IAR]]. --Infophile {{sup|(Talk) (Contribs)}} 18:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The DRV in question that this thread is about is Deletion_review/Log/2008_May_8, by the way. Lawrence Cohen §  t / e  18:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC) {{hab}}

Entru-meet
Can someone take a look at this? It appears that the article was created with the unref tag [] but I can't tell if it was deleted and recreated or moved over from someone's userspace. <font face="monospace" color="#004080"> LegoTech ·(t)·(c) 06:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * You can find move and deletion logs by clicking 'view logs for this page' in the upper left corner of any article's history. In this case, it was not created in user space and moved, because there were no moves in the page log. Unfortunately, it was a screaming copyright infringement of a URL with the same name, so it was deleted under WP:CSD. - Krakatoa  Katie  07:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that hint...how many history pages have I looked at and missed that link :) <font face="monospace" color="#004080"> LegoTech ·(t)·(c) 14:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I can't find the original for the copyvio - all I can find are mirror copies of the wikipedia article Sardar Vallabhbhai National Institute of Technology, Surat --Random832 (contribs) 16:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC) nevermind --Random832 (contribs) 16:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

picture
I was just wondering if there was a limit on the number of "pictures" an article can have, or is it free for a number of pictures to be uploaded. Buddha24 (talk) 08:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no actual limit - see MOS for guidance on how to use them. A good rule to go by is that there should be more text than pictures. If there are many many relevant - and free - pictures, then a gallery tends to be added to the article. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#060">Neıl  <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#060">☎  08:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Rather than fill articles with galleries, it's generally better to add a link to the relevant Commons category. Durova Charge! 09:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Forgot about that. Yes, that too, providing the images are on Commons. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#060">Neıl  <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#060">☎  10:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, if you're using fair use (copyrighted) images, you should use as few as are needed to get the point across. (And this probably should have gone to the Help Desk, but that's ok ;-) ) <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 15:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * en:Wikipedia's fair use rules are strict enough that I doubt they would support a gallery. Durova Charge! 16:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually many articles already have gallery's on them. Mr. GreenHit Me Up Userboxes 16:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If they're galleries of fair use images, they should almost certainly be removed. J Milburn (talk) 21:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's also worth pointing out that, from a purely stylistic viewpoint, articles with large numbers of images (even in galleries) can look ridiculous — see Fairlop Loop for a particularly sorry example, for instance.<font face="Trebuchet MS"> — <font color="#E45E05">iride <font color="#C1118C">scent  21:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Dispute at List of electronic music genres
There's a user by the name of True Steppa who keeps adding something called funky house to the List of electronic music genres page. The thing has inadequate data, it's vague, and there's no mention of the subject. Also, this person keeps deleting an external link to electronic music. I am requesting this person gets blocked or prevented from editing the list of electronic music genres page. Fclass (talk) 16:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The funky house thing seems to be notable enough for inclusion, if one considers that a Google News search gets 40 current hits right now. If you feel it's not notable, then I'd suggest an AFD, as I see a speedy deletion was already declined. The constant removal/replacement is more of a content dispute than vandalism or anything else, and should really be discussed on the article talk page to try and work it out there. As for the external link, it appears to be a user-submitted collection of information set on an ad-based format - a few of the definitions were actually our articles (see Chicago house on there, for example). I don't think it's really a good external link considering that. Tony Fox (arf!) 19:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I've warned both editors for 3rr; though they have both exceeded 3 reversions, I don't think a block is necessary if they are willing to discuss the matter. I do have a question, though - I see that one of the issues is over the inclusion of a link to electronicmusicstyles.com, but I'm not seeing where that site is a reliable source or a relevant external link. Am I missing something? I concur that there is some evidence to suggest that Funky house exists as a music style, so an AfD would be appropriate in that instance. UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 20:03, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * nb. opened a block request discussion on True Steppa at WP:ANI - which I closed as forum shopping, citing this discussion. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I'll delete the electronicmusicstyles.com link. The site is nit a very reliable source and it's mostly copied from Wikipedia. But, if True Steppa shows up again... Fclass (talk) 20:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If True Steppa shows up again, what? Threats are certainly not going to be looked at in your favor Fclass, and I can say that without even looking at the dispute. <font color="#21421E" face="comic sans ms">Keeper   |  <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">76   |  <font color="#ff0000"> Disclaimer  20:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * for some reason I was also asked to help, tho it certainly is not my field. I agree about the link, but I also noticed Fclass has been warned about just this fighting over genres  repeatedly before. DGG (talk) 20:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

A friendly reminder from WP:OP...
If you block an open proxy thats on the list to be checked at WP:OP, please mark it as blocked, so that those checking for proxies can see which proxies have been processed. Thanks! <font face="Trebuchet MS">Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 19:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Wikipedia talk:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage:
I just added my name to the applicants' list there. I also noticed that User:Guerilla In Tha Mist did too more than a week ago, but no decision in either way has been yet made for him, | while another user has already been approved. Since the page says If the list contains entries that are over 48 hours old, please mention this (nicely) at WP:AN, I thought I'd do so. Just wanted to let you know. --Do you know me?...then SHUT UP!!! Sarcasm is beauty 02:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * A reply from someone really wouldn't hurt... --Do you know me?...then SHUT UP!!! Sarcasm is beauty 03:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Image content guidelines
Please see Image content guidelines for an attempt to start a guideline to consolidate and improve our guidelines on image content on Wikipedia. Please discuss at the talk page and help improve this new guideline, which was inspired by this and other recent image discussion controversies. Carcharoth (talk) 23:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Watch out for Voped.com
I received an email from Voped.com today, requesting an opinion on a draft of a Wikipedia article they wrote themselves. I responded explaining COI and so forth. I also did a little searching and found this and this. Strangely this person says User:Jéské Couriano referred him to me, as a "dependable administrator". I have absolutely no experience with Jeske and I'm not an administrator. In case anyone wants to read it, I've included the email here via hidden. I'm reporting this here because frankly it's weird and interesting, and also because the website in question apparently just went live a week ago, so heads-up regarding promo material.

<small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 23:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * My apologies, Equazcion, I thought you were an admin. Sorry.  Yes, I did refer him to you as your name is one I commonly see; I was the one who originally deleted the article in userspace and blocked the Voped account.  I have been in contact with him via email ever since, and have pointed him out to Wikipedia policies.  If I erred in asking him to send the article to you in order to vet it, my apologies. -<font color="32CD32">Jéské  <font color="4682B4">(v^_^v E pluribus unum) 08:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Not at all, no harm done. It just confused me a little. I've been directing this person to our policies as well. From my last communication with him, he didn't seem to be "getting it", and seems hell-bent on posting an article on his company. Guess we'll see. Thanks for the response. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 08:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

IP Exempt enabled for administrators on user rights
WP:IPEXEMPT and bug fixed. NonvocalScream (talk) 23:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Please note that details of how it should be granted, and what process is best, are still being finalized. There may be some changes during the first week. Please grant very cautiously and to a limited extent only for the first week, or until the policy beds in. FT2 (Talk 00:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I just looked at the user rights management and saw another thing, what is  for? -MBK004 00:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The accountcreator permission allows for user accounts to bypass the arbitrary account creation limit designed to prevent mass account creations. Nakon  00:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There's a throttle put on non admins accounts to stop them making more than 6 new accounts a day, but this has been stopping users who help create accounts for new users. This removes that throttle.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  00:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ahh, now I know. That's an area I've been far away from. -MBK004 00:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * How do we approve users for either of those new rights? Tiptoety  talk 00:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * IP block exempt goes through the unblock mailing list. I'm guess ACC can just go on any admins talk page.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  00:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Now all we need is some way to restrict accounts from preforming a certain number of page moves a day. Tiptoety  talk 00:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I need it now, but I'm thinking about doing some ACC work in the future...could a friendly passing admin give me accountcreator please? :) Thanks, dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 00:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ Tiptoety  talk 00:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh wait..it looks like me and Ryan edit conflicted on it, he is actually the one that gave it to you. :D Tiptoety  talk 00:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks to Ryan (and Tip for trying!). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 02:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The addition of the ipblock-exempt user group also means that anonymizing proxies should be exclusively hard blocked now (which is more or less already currently done), as all constructive uses of such proxies should be channeled into IP block exemption. Grace notes T § 01:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Is the idea behind this to allow trusted non-admin users to edit from otherwise blocked IPs, such as Tor? Lawrence Cohen §  t / e  01:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. Tiptoety  talk 01:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ideally, though, we should strongly discourage ipb-exempt users from using Tor specifically - its widely distributed nature has the disadvantage of making disproving checkuser investigations less easy, as well as making it possible for a rogue node op (of which there are plenty) to hijack your account if you don't go through the HTTPS gateway. Better to go through one of the many more reputable HTTP-based proxies if at all possible.  krimpet ✽  01:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of official statement from ArbCom on TOR and GWA, just so we know exactly where we stand - A l is o n  ❤ 01:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This is excellent news for checkusers, too. Note that ArbCom have already granted the first two exemptions to User:Exxolon (the first ever) and User:Deltasquared. This option really makes my day!! - A l is o n  ❤ 01:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow, thats kind of cool. How does this benefit Checkusers, Alison? Also, we should put up a list of "recommended" proxies for these users, as well as some kind of something (WP: page) explaining "why" this is good for everyone/checkusers and what purpose it serves. Lawrence Cohen §  t / e  01:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Because when applying hard rangeblocks, there's nothing more annoying than knowing that one or two editors will be caught as "collateral damage". Admins are normally blind to that, but range checking on checkuser shows it up. The two examples above are as a result of the "thousands of socks" vandal and were caught in the hardblock - A l is o n  ❤ 01:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Quick comment for now.

IPEXEMPT means a user can bypass any IP block at all - only a block specifically on their username will affect them. There are two main situations it'll be most useful - constructive users who edit via a vandalism range or shared IP we would like to hard-block, and users who would like to edit anonymously via Tor or another hard-blocked open proxy.

The main risk area with IPEXEMPT is it is wiki pixie dust to avoid checkuser. So it's likely to be a highly desired flag by wiki-abusers for its WP:GHBH and WP:SOCK deniability potential. Fortunately most uses will not be for anonymous access, but for hard IP block bypassing.

Users who want IPEXEMPT to bypass a hard IP block on their usual IP, aren't a problem. They don't especially want to edit via proxies, it just happens IPEXEMPT would let them if they did. To keep it simple, the suggested policy is that a user in this position who just wants to use their normal connection but there's an IP block on it (schoolblock, vandalism, etc), can be given IPEXEMPT by any admin, but there's a condition they may not use it to edit via blocked proxies, or else it'll be removed. Logging may be needed to track when the right should be removed (ie, block ends), perhaps. Nothing much more. Making non-proxied use a condition means minimal scrutiny is needed and avoids loads of needless inquiry and such. It also means most requests don't need anything more than a quick check it's justified (ie, due to an IP block on their native IP), since the right will be removed if used to edit via a proxy. Easy.

Users who want IPEXEMPT to edit anonymously need more scrutiny. That's still being discussed. Main risk - Admins might quietly give the right to socks or friends on a pretext (send self email). We've had a few sock-admins and some abuse proxy access and unblock methods. This should be a rare request, and it requires a high level of trust of the user, and certainty of uninvolved admin scrutiny (IPEXEMPT is effectively an admin level tool). But yes -- if there is a bona fide need for anon proxy access by a non-admin, and sufficient trust, then to answer Lawrence Cohen's question, we now would have a way to let them do so.

Thats the quick comment version, anyway.

FT2 (Talk 02:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you. We definitely need to create a page listing recommended "good" anon proxies for people to use, then. Lawrence Cohen  §  t / e  02:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, FT2. This is excellent - A l is o n  ❤ 04:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * ....So, the only really trustworthy admins will be the ones who don't request it? ;~) LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * ipexempt comes with the bit already ;) Trustworthy admins are those who don't ask it for their sockpuppets :P -- lucasbfr  talk 09:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Another email
I have a question that I would like to ask an admin via email. Any volunteers?--<font color="purple" face="comic sans ms">Urban <font color="red" face="Papyrus">Rose  03:46, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm open. <font face="Harlow Solid Italic"><font size="2px" color="teal"> « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @  '' 03:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sent.--<font color="purple" face="comic sans ms">Urban <font color="red" face="Papyrus">Rose  03:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Policy by proxy, one editor counting as 2 for consensus?
I'm baffled by this, where User:Hiding has apparently named User:Kim Bruning as his voice in policy discussion, and claims Kim now counts twice (???). Is this even remotely allowed? So if 100 editors name me their proxy I can roll into an RFA or AFD and wield supreme power? Lawrence Cohen §  t / e  15:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:PRX would appear to have been rejected, so no they shouldn't be doing it. DuncanHill (talk) 15:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think this comment was intended to be taken seriously, so don't panic. — CharlotteWebb 15:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Just because Hiding says it, doesn't make it so. I doubt anyone trying to judge consensus on anything will take this into account, so it's meaningless, and therefor harmless.   --barneca (talk) 16:00, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Barneca is speaking for me as well, so his comment counts twice. In fact, he is also speaking for my 100 abusive sockpuppets, so his comment has the power of 102. Since his strength is as the strength of ten because his heart is pure, that makes his total score 1020. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

This is an intriguing situation indeed. I'm going to have to think very carefully before I respond. --Kim Bruning (talk) 16:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You think you have to think carefully before responding? You're only thinking for two; I'm evidently thinking for 1020 1021.  The pressure, oh the pressure... Not that it isn't what I've always secretly wanted. --barneca (talk) 16:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Odd situation, yes, but it appears PRX and this idea have no popular support... Lawrence Cohen  §  t / e  16:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Doh. Does that mean that I'll now have to look up every page where e.g. User:Walton One commented and throw in a per Walton, only to have people tell me it's not a vote? Lame... Dorftrottel (ask) 16:14, May 7, 2008


 * Seems silly to say, but Barneca has captured my thoughts perfectly on this so. . .(no need for me to repeat). This strikes me as kind of funny, am I allowed to have an "anti"-proxi?  That is, suppose there's an editor with whom I usually disagree. . . everytime they comment somewhere, the "consensus talliers" could add in my minus 1 !vote.  But then we might need some kind of board to keep track of all the proxies and anti-proxies. . .seems complicated.  Well anyway, agree with Barneca.  Bemusedly, R. Baley (talk) 16:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What would happen if you delegated proxy to me, and I delegated my proxy to you?
 * More interestingly, what would happen if you delegated proxy to me, and I chose to have an ANTI-proxy to you? --barneca (talk) 16:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sure it's all amusing. First of all, the proposal involved is "delegable proxy," though, in fact, because no special meaning was assigned to proxies by WP:PRX, which was just about how one would technically name a proxy, not about what would be done with the information, the proposer understood that, later, proxies might be considered delegable, because that creates certain very interesting possibilities; among them would be the "election" of a standing assembly or committee with purely voluntary representation, revocable at any time, and without any necessity for formal election process. But that was all deferred. The question in front of us with WP:PRX was *if* proxies are to be named, set aside what they *mean*, how would we do it? And because there was some level of consensus on *how*, WP:PRX was reasonably done. Those "rejecting" WP:PRX generally gave the reason for rejection as "we don't vote," but the proposal did not propose voting, unless naming a proxy is voting (it's unanimous voting, by definition, so it isn't what we normally think of as voting.) I think the fact that proxies *are* used for voting, such as in corporate environments, confused a lot of people, and no matter how many times it was said that WP:PRX wasn't about voting, the comments that it was rejected because we don't vote continued to this day, as we have seen. Hiding *did* make that claim. But so what? It doesn't matter at all if nobody pays attention to it. If a closing admin thinks it means something, then it means something. To him or her. And if not, not. WP:PRX made no changes at all to policy or procedure, it merely suggested a new procedure for experimental use that did not bind or prejudice anyone or any process.


 * Indeed, a more cogent object found recently has been that it wouldn't do anything at all. And that's correct, if nobody uses it. And the labor of naming a proxy is trivial, so ... what, exactly, is the problem?


 * Now, some specific questions were asked. What if A names B and B names A. We have a proxy loop. It means that, if we *were* counting proxies for voting, as an example, if either one of them participates in a discussion or decision, the comment or vote of either one stands for both, unless the other also votes, in which case they each stand only for themselves. Generally, proxies only represent in the absence of the one represented. So proxy "votes" are not a fixed quality settled on the proxy, so that Bruning would automatically have two "votes" in any situation. I won't describe how to do proxy expansions. Why bother when few are naming proxies? But it can be easily done.


 * There are a number of groups around the world working on web sites with automated delegable proxy, and many have thought that "proxy loops" were a problem, because if neither A nor B participate, they are both not represented, so these systems have sometimes tried to prohibit such loops. But it's shallow thinking, actually. If everyone names a proxy, there *must* be loops, and the only question is how large the loops are. My own conclusion, after working on this idea for about thirty years, has been that the matter should simply be left to the individuals involved. At most some systems might notify consenting members when they aren't represented in a debate or decision.


 * Nobody ever brought up the idea of an anti-proxy before. It's an oxymoron, actually. A proxy is a person, an intelligent actor, not a remote voter, not a rubber stamp. An anti-proxy is a kind of rubber stamp, an automated vote, and a thoroughly offensive one. I'd say that anyone can name such a proxy, but who is going to pay attention to it? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and automatically voting the opposite of someone else could be pretty foolish. So if someone tries to be foolish, we will politely ignore it, I'd say. Instead of naming an anti-proxy, just name a sensible user who would, when this really bad editor votes, counter it based on an intelligent decision, not an automatic rejection.


 * Delegable proxy, if enough editors use it and enough of the proxies named are active, would allow far more efficient participation in, say, AfDs. Entirely aside from any consideration of voting. And how that would happen ... hey, how much of Wikipedia could all of you have anticipated, sitting and thinking about it theoretically. Wiki theory and practice didn't develop until there were wikis, and only a few were able to anticipate how it would all work out in actuality. That's why I say, "Just do it!" If it doesn't work, no harm is done, except for the wikifuss created by people who try to crush harmless things when they don't understand them.


 * I.e., just do two things: first, start an assembly. But also do it in a way that, as it grows, it can manage the traffic and follow true deliberative process, where ideas are broken down and considered in detail before being rejected in toto, or blindly accepted. This has been done countless times, it is how real democracies work, it is known how to do it. And, no, you don't just call a meeting and everyone shows up and starts talking. A few people set up procedure that then allows larger numbers to participate without it becoming a mob scene. And, with delegable proxy and committee systems, (we call committees "pages") it becomes possible to have direct democracy *and* representative democracy at the same time. And every time I try to explain this, the words multiply. Just understand that I see a *lot* more than I can say. --Abd (talk) 15:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I think I would then file an RFAR against myself (then again, I did AFD an article I wrote once, giving myself a notification via Twinkle, and I MFD'd an AFD another time, so stranger things have happened...) Lawrence Cohen  §  t / e  16:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Kim is male. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 18:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Then neither one of us would have to comment . . .no wait, that's not right. I know, we can make this all go away if one of us designates Kim as our anti-proxy, thus bringing her non-vote back to one -as if none of this had ever happened. :-)  R. Baley (talk) 16:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest for others to be very careful as well. Hiding has put us all in a bit of an interesting situation with this declaration. If you just respond without thinking, you might find yourself shooting yourself in the foot. I'm not going to say more now, I'm really going to think about this for at least 24 hours. --Kim Bruning (talk) 16:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you seriously considering this viable, that your voice now carries Hiding's authority as well in discussions? Lawrence Cohen  §  t / e  16:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I was going to just comment for Lawrence not to take this seriously as no admin or editor will in any discussion needing consensus. However, I'm confused as to what Kim Bruning wants us to be careful about. I am not in an "interesting situation" from Hidings actions, I don't know who else here is. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 16:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, that's your choice. :-) I'd like to point out that this comment was made (by someone ~in support of the consensus model) in a discussion on the topic of terminating the consensus model, which was originally started by 2 arbcom members. So things are a little twisted, and I'm going to keep thinking. --Kim Bruning (talk) 16:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Does that mean Hiding is still thinking about it, thus negating his outright acceptance of it? <font color="#21421E" face="comic sans ms">Keeper   |  <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">76   |  <font color="#ff0000"> Disclaimer  16:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * LOL, please don't hurt my brain further than it is already hurting. ^^;; The simple diff is torn out of a very very twisty context. Hiding could actually be saying the opposite of what they're saying... or something. Argh... <goes to get paracetamol > --Kim Bruning (talk) 16:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC) things get twisted when people start to invoke the system they are attempting to overthrow ;-P OR I'm reading too much into it, and it's really just very simple. But... ok, I'm really going off to just think about this now and come up with a properly sane comment. Have a nice day! 

Hiding can call leader till his... well, let's just say I agree with Barneca. Although I'm wondering if I gave an ANTI-proxy to Kim, would it cancel out Hiding's proxy? Screw it, WP:TINP. --Kbdank71 16:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You could do that, but you would likely end up rejecting consensus. The discussion where this occurred is long and twisty. :-P --Kim Bruning (talk) 16:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, so (theoretically), If I named Hiding as my proxy (which leads back to Kim), but also named Kbdank71 as my proxy, would I end time as we know it? : ) - jc37 21:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Reading this discussion is making my head hurt. Who's my proxy for that? UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 17:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't worry. Kim B already took a dose of paracetamol for you...<font color="#21421E" face="comic sans ms">Keeper   |  <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">76   |  <font color="#ff0000"> Disclaimer  17:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That's why each of them still has half a headache. S HEFFIELD S TEEL TALK 18:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Good editors count for an infinite amount of people when they are correct. Bad editors are worthless. That is, consensus is defined by the strength of an argument, the quality, content, and context of the argument, not by the mere quantity of arguers. Only appeals to reason and evidence are sufficient for consensus. Appeals to popularity (often mistakenly referred to as "consensus"), tradition, bureaucracy, etc., are irrelevant. The fact that questions like this come up is silly. Lawrence sounds like he's accusing him of voting fraud. If Kim Bruning and Hiding are both hypothetically making the same bad argument, it doesn't really matter that they're both making that argument. ☯ Zenwhat (talk) 04:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * To answer Lawrence's question, if 100 editors name me their proxy I can roll into an RFA or AFD and wield supreme power?, I'll pose one back. What do you seriously think? However, you seem to be misunderstanding the nature of the wiki here somewhat.  You are free to try it.  Consensus will determine whether it's a good model to be adopted. Obviously, having commented in this discussion I revoke my granting of proxy to Kim for this debate. You see how tiresome typing things like that will become? To answer the other question posed by Lawrence, "Is this even remotely allowed?", I would point Lawrence to WP:IAR. A fundamental part of the wiki is related to that great line from the movie Grease: "The rules are, there are no rules." obviously there are rules, but we find the rules by breaking them, breaking them even before we knew we had them.  It's that kind of place. It tends to work too. Yes it is remotely allowed.  Whether it is followed, indulged as eccentricity or thoroughly ignored are different matters.  Largely, based on this debate, I would suggest the latter two. Hiding T 09:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Thinking about it - I've seen a few things where Ive disagreed with Kim, but he then persuaded me. I'd happily let him have my proxy VOTE (let's stop kidding ourselves, a bunch of stuff is pure and simple voting (and worse, it's voting with low turnout)). An anti-proxy vote might be handy for any prima facie anti !votes. The discussion about proxy shows how much importance some sections of WP attach to voting. Dan Beale-Cocks 13:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Since it may have become relevant, here is how proxy assignments could be handled. First, very simple: there is a proxy table somewhere. To name a proxy, you add a line to it, naming the proxy, and you sign it. Most systems being set up suggest that proxies should be accepted to be effective, so the one accepting could sign it, or alternatively, delete it. But WP:PRX did it differently. For that, a proxy file was placed by a user in their user space. The file included templates that brought in the timestamp and verified the identity, in the file, of the one who created it, and when. Then the user went to a central proxy table and added a record transcluding the individual proxy file. It wasn't difficult to use, and you could change your proxy at any time by just changing the designation in your user proxy file. That was the process, more or less as suggested by Mangojuice and implemented by Sarsaparilla, though it was still a bit buggy, due to a bug in MediaWiki. I set up a somewhat simpler system that allowed the proxy table to reside anywhere, not just in one central place. Basic idea, though, was that the user has total control over the proxy assignment at all times, because it is in the user's space. And in my form, the central table could be anywhere, and there could be more than one of them; one could make up special tables with subsets of users whose proxies are transcluded. Who would want to do this? Well, one has to understand, first, the uses. Thinking of possible uses, one could, for example, decide only to look at proxies for users who have been registered for, say, a year. Or who have more than a certain number of edits. Or who are administrators. Who would make these choices? Someone who wants to understand and estimate a consensus for the subgroup selected. This is Wikipedia. Votes do not -- or should not -- control. Rather, they advise, and it is up to the person who is going to act to consider and weigh the advice. ArbComm has been seeking advice and some have proposed an Assembly. A system PRX could generate and estimate consensus on proposals, without elections. Have I gotten anyone's attention yet? This is a proposal to *preserve* the best parts of how we do things, while becoming more efficient, i.e., requiring everyone to look at every decision (something we never did, but then we have problems which arise when those who do look have been self-selected in a problematic way) or even to vote on members of an assembly, beyond the easist kind of vote: pick the person you trust most. It doesn't have to be perfect. --Abd (talk) 15:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Serafin, or not Serafin - that is the question
The article Nicolaus Copernicus has a long-standing problem with endless socks of User:Serafin. Usually, they are easy enough to spot. However, there's been an edit today that could be him, but might not. User:Shpakovich, who started editing in January, made a "Copernius is Polish"-type edit earlier today. While this editor differs from the ususal pattern in that the account has other edits, some aspects of it seem suspicious - specifically: Does this warrant a checkuser? --Ckatz chatspy  01:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The edit comment "Ok nationality i wont enter, but his Polish ethnicity should be mentioned", which reads as a continuation of the two socks that tried to make changes earlier. (Shpakovich has also never edited the article before.)
 * The comment on User talk:Shpakovich from early April, where the editor admitted to having been blocked and also to having socks that were blocked without stating outright who he/she was.)
 * Please see requests for checkuser. If you are not certain about that, you could go to suspected sockpuppets instead. Carcharoth (talk) 02:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks... I was actually hoping, though, to see if any other admins who have had more extensive dealings with either Serafin or Shpakovich in the past see a parallel here. (I don't want to block Shpakovich, or even suggest a link to Serafin, if someone who knows them better feels there's no connection.) --Ckatz chatspy  05:27, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have had a lot of dealings with Serafin. In my opinion its is unlikely that User:Shpakovich is Serafin - this just isn't his/her editing pattern. Serafin is much more single-minded and uses highly-recognizable edit summaries and rarely strays beyond three core articles Copernicus, Recovered Territories and Bureaucracy. Serafin, by the way, edits from IPs associated with the University of Guelph, usually Johnston Hall, so if you do request a checkuser, you might ask the CU to see if any of the user's IPs resolve to there. Gwernol 12:17, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Email
I would like to speak to an administrator via email concerning a dispute.--<font color="purple" face="comic sans ms">Urban <font color="red" face="Papyrus">Rose  00:36, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Then e-mail one...? --Deskana (talk) 00:37, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think he'd like a volunteer. He did the same thing the other day and I got a very productive email off him, which I dealt with appropriately. Unfortunately I'm a little busy - is anyone else free to help Urban?  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  00:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm a "she" actually. Just to let you know.--<font color="purple" face="comic sans ms">Urban <font color="red" face="Papyrus">Rose  00:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oops, I do appologise. I hope I didn't cause any offence.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  00:42, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Feel free to mail me, but can't promise I can help...<font face="Trebuchet MS"> — <font color="#E45E05">iride <font color="#C1118C">scent  00:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "This user is interested in beauty." is a dead giveaway, although maybe not. MickMacNee (talk) 00:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm interested in beauty, but perhaps for different reasons than Urban Rose :-)  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  01:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've sent Iridescent an email so I'm marking this as resolved, okay?.--<font color="purple" face="comic sans ms">Urban <font color="red" face="Papyrus">Rose  01:15, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think so, it's OK. <small style="white-space:nowrap;size:95%;color:#2F74FF">—<small style="background:#FFFFFF;border:#EB8500 1px solid;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px">TreasuryTag —<small style="background:#DBDBDB;border:#EB8500 1px solid;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px">t —<small style="background:#DBDBDB;border:#EB8500 1px solid;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px">c 13:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

User talk:FMGADMIN
I think this user breaks the Username policy by adding "ADMIN" to his/her username. Should anything be done?--<font color="navy" face="Times New Roman">RyRy5 (<font color="navy" face="Times New Roman">talk  ♠ <font color="navy" face="Times New Roman">Review ) 01:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the context makes it clear that he claims to be an admin of FreeMafiaGame (FMG), not of Wikipedia. — CharlotteWebb 01:49, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Regardless. Its still misleading and inappropriate. The policy clearly prohibits this type of username. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 02:21, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Update. Its been reported at WP:UAA, which is where this should have gone in the first place. Marking as resolved. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 02:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Cheers.--<font color="navy" face="Times New Roman">RyRy5 (<font color="navy" face="Times New Roman">talk  ♠ <font color="navy" face="Times New Roman">Review ) 03:42, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I see he's been blocked, adding insult to injury as I doubt anyone expected him to continue editing after the abrasive welcome. All in a day's work I guess. Blehhhh... — CharlotteWebb 11:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Usernames that need to be instantly blocked go to UAA. Otherwise it's better to take them to WP:RFCN, after discussion with the user. Don't forget that WP policies might be confusing to new editors, and that it's easy for a good faith editor to pick a "bad" username. We don't want to scare away good faith editors, eh? Dan Beale-Cocks 13:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Steelbeard1
User:Steelbeard1 and I are having a dispute that User:Lar is attmepting to mediate at[[User:Lar. These are somewhat complex issues that need to be parsed one issue at a time but steelbeard1 is burying my comments under comments of his own designed to distract from my point. Can somebody please ask him t ostop and wait for Lar to read my comments. I will be happy to discuss all issues with him but Lar needs to read my imost recent responses before we continue and he is burying what Ihave said.--Dr who1975 (talk) 06:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Rest assured, Dr who1975, that Lar is experienced enough to figure out what is conversation and what is fluff. Trust your mediator to mediate, even if the other side is perceived as disruptive.   Keegan talk 07:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * ok. I guess I should have more faith.--Dr who1975 (talk) 01:05, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

The disputes are about persons speculated to be running for public office or declined requests to run for public office who never become candidates for the public office in question. The consensus which developed is that sourced speculation is allowed in the body of articles, but is never allowed in candidates' lists because they were never candidates in the first place. The latest dispute involves speculation removed from candidates' lists but with most of the citations becoming dead links so they couldn't be verified before insertion in the body of articles. You can see what I mean at Talk:Louisiana's 6th congressional district special election, 2008. Dr. Who attempted to put clearly unsourced info on Ben Nevers in the body of the Louisiana's 1st congressional district special election, 2008 article which I deleted. The citation Dr. Who gave was from Nevers' official state senate web site which would never give out Nevers' congressional ambitions unless he gave it himself. Also, if you look at the User talk:Lar history page, you will see that Dr. Who had deleted then undeleted my rebuttal comments. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Discussion is now underway at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elections and Referenda. Steelbeard1 (talk) 02:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

See Talk:United States Senate election in Mississippi, 2008. Dr. Who is now discriminating against me by complaining that I made a new comment concerning a merge proposal when another editor did the same thing before I did and Dr. Who did not complain about that editor. Whatever actions are taken against Dr. Who by Wikipedia higherups I'm in favor of. Steelbeard1 (talk) 21:35, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Very Abnormal Problem
I think this is the right place for this, if not please redirect me.

A friend of mine wrote a wikipedia article about me. He was just being ridiculous, knowing it would get deleted. However, he used full names of people, and made the article pretty racey. This is not a huge problem for me, however, my father found the article, and was not impressed. The article was deleted. However, google "cached" it. This means it took a "Snapshot" of the article in case it got deleted so that it could be viewed in case of deletion. My father googled my name, and thus got this article. So regardless of it's deletion, it is still there.

My proposal was to make another article about myself ONLY UNTIL it was "cached" by google, and then just get rid of it. The article can be blank or whatever, I don't really care. I just want the new cache to replace the old one to get this off of the internet.

Also, I first asked "faithlessthewonderboy" for help, and he was of great assistance in redirecting me and stuff. Give him a cookie or something, he's a nice guy.

http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:jCg3nNE3KD0J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Feldmeier+Jacob+Keith+feldmeier&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

That's the google cache of it.

As I am new to wiki, and know nothing of how my account works, please respond to me by writing to. I realize this is a bit of an inconvenience, but it would help me so much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Forrizzledog (talk • contribs) 04:28, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If you have concerns about Google's caching, please contact them at . Nakon  05:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Unless I'm mistaken, the cache should clear itself, since the page no longer exists. -- Ned Scott 07:18, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's correct. Although, as said above, you can contact Google and request that they remove the cached version, I'm fairly sure they'd be happy to help out. J Milburn (talk) 07:31, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree not a bad idea to contact them, as the cache may show up for quite a while. Jussen (talk) 07:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's up to you whether you contact Google or not, do what you think is best. If you which to remove the cache as quickly as possible, then it may be an idea to do so, but it will inevitably disappear before long. <span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans-serif"> Lra drama 15:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

GFDL problem
Who Shot Mr. Burns? looks like a GFDL problem. If you look at this history snippet, two separate pages with greatly overlapping histories were both moved into this spot. As a result, you have a plethora of diffs like these where you jump back and forth between part 1 and part 2:  , etc., etc. I haven't determined how far back this goes but here are similar diffs from May 2007:. Do we need to try and untangle these or just leave it alone now? —Wknight94 (talk) 15:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * As long as all the material in the article was added by edits in the past and there are no current copy-paste issues in the article, this is just an ugly merge that doesn't need anything.  MBisanz  talk 15:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I understood that merges like this were not supposed to be done. Notice WP:SPLICE where various admins refuse to do merges with overlapping histories.  —Wknight94 (talk) 15:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * AFAIK this is the only way to properly merge two pages, where the cotent of the final revision reflects material from both prior pages. In the future we will have the Merge feature, but right now I think this method of overlapping histories is the only way.  MBisanz  talk 15:42, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * (I meant WP:SPLICE in my last message - so repaired...) Another thing to read is WP:HM which recommends skipping the history merge and simply adding a note to the talk page.  —Wknight94 (talk) 15:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I only know of one or two admins who have the skill and patience to undo a history merge, so it might be a moot point. User:Rjd0060 did the merge, so maybe ask him his thoughts.  MBisanz  talk 16:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Apologies. I know it is an ugly merge, but its done.  There is no reason to think that the merge shouldn't have been done.  Not sure what you want to accomplish here, Wknight94.  Feel free to let me know if I can be of any help.  Rjd0060 (talk) 21:00, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think it was supposed to be done like that, but if no one agrees, then I must be wrong. Hence why I didn't pursue any further.  If no one else cares, then neither do I.  —Wknight94 (talk) 23:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure Wknight is right; my understanding is, when you merge articles with long, overlapping histories, you add a null edit to the target article, and a note on its talk page, pointing to the other article's history, and keep that page alive, as a redirect. Otherwise, the combined history is almost useless.
 * I'm also pretty sure that MBisanz is right, this would be ugly to undo. I think we should just live with this.  The GFDL is technically satisfied, and there are certainly worse situations floating around out there. --barneca (talk) 00:21, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

History merges are not difficult to undo - just time consuming. Viridae Talk 03:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Template:In the news

 * From Main Page/Errors

Can someone fix the wording to "Skirmishes erupt in Beirut between supporters..."? Thanks, Spencer  T♦C 16:49, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Seems it's already been changed. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 16:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Not quite. The wording in ITN says, "Skirmishes between supporters of Lebanon's government and the opposition erupt in Beirut." while the prefered wording is "Skirmishes erupt in Beirut between supporters..." And you might want to see the following link: Template talk:In_the_news. Spencer  T♦C 18:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Now it has. Nousernamesleft copper, not wood 02:47, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Gavin Wims
Hello Wikipedia administrators, recently I have noticed a user editing my talk page requesting that I remove a mention to Gavin Wims (a deleted article), the user User:gavinwims (who claimes to be Gavin Wims) continues to ask me to remove this from my talk page. The said section of my talk page is a dicussion with another user about my placing a speedily deletion tag on Gavin Wims. After looking at User:gavinwims's contributions I see that I good persentage of his contributions to this site are to my talk page. This leads me to beleve that the user is a sockpuppet of the author of Gavin Wims. However, as the article is deleted; I would like the deleted history of the page to be sent to me so that I can see who created the page. I wish to be able to see this before I take it to Suspected sock puppets as I feal that without this information I would be in violation of WP:AGF. Thank you in advance! Mww113   (talk)    (Report a mistake!) 16:31, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The article was created by, and all significant edits came from, User:Jmccarthy96. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 16:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Mww113   (talk)    (Report a mistake!) 18:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: Gavin Wims has been cleared of all sockpuppetry charges.  M w w 1 1 3    (talk) 12:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Libelous?
Could someone please take a look at Erich Kofmel. The content is referenced, but highly POV and negative. I'm not sure if this counts as a G10 CSD, or if it should be dealt with in another manner. -- Deadly∀ssassin  10:03, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have deleted the article as a G10 speedy deletion and as a repost of an article deleted from Articles for deletion/Erich Kofmel. Davewild (talk) 10:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your quick action, I wasn't aware of the AfD discussion. -- Deadly∀ssassin  10:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Review of topic ban on User:DemolitionMan
Following a WP:AN thread a couple of months ago, was placed on a topic ban on British Raj related articles. This followed a RFC and a a previous editing restriction confirmed here. On the last thread it was stated that the restriction would be reviewed in two months time, now. I'm looking for a consensus of opinion on whether the topic ban can be lifted, or should remain. Thanks. Leithp 21:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * A quick review of the editors contribution history shows very little editing since the topic ban anyway, so lifting the topic ban shouldn't be troublesome - unless they return to the previous editing problems (in which case it is re-imposed longer/pernanently). I would point out that I was involved in some previous discussions - and may be included in some of the links, but haven't bothered clicking them - as a fairly neutral party. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the topic ban could be lifted if DemolitionMan is willing to express willingness to follow policies and abide by any community restrictions. One of the links above suggests he never recognized the 1RR as actually applying to him. In the thread about the topic ban he does not seem to recognize any problems with his editing or any desire to cooperate in the future. For a recent nationalist POV edit on Kashmir see, for which his edit summary was 'rv vandalism.'  EdJohnston (talk) 16:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And on the talkpage: I don't think that he's quite ready to acknowledge that changes in his editing are required. -- Relata refero (disp.) 11:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * His response to the review is here. Leithp 21:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Honestly, I don't care if my ban is continued or lifted as I don't see myself editing articles on wikipedia except for correcting grammatical errors. I take "facts" expressed here with a pinch of salt and usually double check them in another resource now. The views expressed here are more subjective than objective and I think that is a humongous shame. To elaborate further on what I said to Leithp - I personally think that this board is a sham - despite there not being a consensus last time, the ban was upheld on basis of comments by POV pushers. And I think Leithp was the plaintiff, judge and jury last time around - he will be one this time too. The ingrained racism masquerading as political correctness is painfully obvious to me and I am not going to bother civilizing him or his cronies. Honestly, they are not worth my time and effort. DemolitionMan (talk) 04:11, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, leaving my "ingrained racism" to the side for the moment, DemolitionMan hasn't expressed any indication that he realises why his editing was/is problematic. I'm unsure whether we should continue with the topic ban, and review future contribitions of DemolitionMan closely, or keep it, since he apparently has expressed no desire to change his style of editing. Would someone else care to close this out? Leithp 06:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

HAHAHA - There was no consensus last time to uphold a ban, but I was banned - this time time there was no consensus to withdraw the ban - so I remain banned. Thanks for proving my point. DemolitionMan (talk) 18:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

David L Cook
Hello, sometime back I requested slanderous information be removed from the abovementioned article on David L Cook. The information was inflamnatory and was to be deleted. I got a response that the information was removed and not able to be seen in the history. However, when I went to look this morning at the article, I found this;  and this one,. I cannot seem to get anyone to answer me at oversight. Can you please remove these from the edit history so that other people cannot find this stuff? It could prove to be very defaming for this subject. It was already removed by one admin at Oversight, but I guess somehow it did not get deleted from these two. Maybe it was because of the rollback? Canyouhearmenow 14:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The issue has been resolved. Thank you Canyouhearmenow 14:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Template:United Kingdom cities
I would like to bring to your attention about users and  and how they may cause an edit war. These two users are insisting that their home town of Manchester have a picture on the census population template on the UK. According to the census, Manchester is the ninth largest city, and the two images on these templates should be first largest city then second largest city. I wrote on the talk about it, and they still continue to insist on this. Can I get an opinion on this. — Nuclear  Vacuum  14:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * This should be taken to WP:Dispute resolution, not the admin noticeboard. Neither me nor Jza84 are seeking to start a war, it is yourself who is not trying to reach a consensus and is instead deciding only your opinion counts. ┌<font color="#000099">Joshii ┐└<font color="#660066">chat ┘ 14:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Spent convictions
- My mistake creating this, per the deleted talk page consensus. --1qx (talk) 18:37, 11 May 2008 (UTC) I'm just informing admins of this essay I wrote: feel free to tweak it as much as you want. Ta, --1qx (talk) 12:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Request for advice about I'd Do Anything (BBC TV series)
The above article covers a reality tv show which is currently airing in the UK. Each week there are two shows, one airs on Saturday and the Results show on Sunday. However, only the Saturday show is live. The Sunday Result show is recorded about an hour after the Saturday show finishes and then shown "as live" on Sunday without the results actually being released before the show airs. Each week on the Results show two contestants enter a "sing-off" and one of them is then eliminated from the show from that sing-off. There is a hidden message on the article on the "Finalists" section requesting that the details of the Sunday show are not added until after that show airs. Despite this for a number of the weeks details of the Results show have been added before the show airs. Yet again it has happened today with full details of who was in the sing-off, what song they sung in that sing-off and which one of them was eliminated. It usually seems to be IP users who enter this information. Should I be requesting semi-protection of the page at the relevant noticeboard so that IP users and new users can't edit? I have yet again removed the details from tonights show and added yet another hidden note asking for details not to be added until the show airs. Any advice would be great. Thank you. ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 15:19, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You could try asking at WP:RFPP on the Saturday afternoon for 31 hours semi-protection - that'd expire after the Sunday show had been broadcast. GBT/C 16:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If there are reliable sources that prove this is true, IMO it should stay in the article. D.M.N. (talk) 16:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The point being though that there are no reliable sources when it is added before the show airs. The content being added is not verifiable until the show airs, as the information is not being released prior to that. And with it being added in advance it is then ruining the show for those who watch it without knowing the result, which is the vast majority of viewers and readers of wikipedia. In addition at no time during the series when the details have been added in advance has it ever been added with a source - because there are no sources, the information is not released in advance. If you check the edit history you would see that none of these edits have included a source. And for all anyone else knows before the show airs, the edits could be completely false. Also the show is aired "as live" without the result being known beforehand. ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 16:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * You'll have to concentrate on the "lack of reliable sources" part to get anywhere. You'll find that no-one cares about spoilers, and it'll end up in some weird edit war.   Dan Beale-Cocks  17:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Which is fair enough and is easily done as when the edits are added there are never any reliable sources and so aren't verifiable until the shows air. And none of the edits have ever included a source simply because there aren't any when they are added. Cheers for all the replies anyway. ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 17:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Just as a FYI about the above. After the show aired tonight, the information added earlier today by an IP user about the eliminated contestant and the sing-off was all totally false. Wrong person, wrong song they sang and completely made up comments supposedly made about her by Andrew Lloyd Webber. ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 19:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If the information is factual, there is no reason to omit it from the article. Kingturtle (talk) 21:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Nothing could be further from the truth. Our bar is set at Verifiability, not truth; as Verifiability clearly indicates.  Unsourced factually correct material is utterly indistinguishable from factually incorrect material such as the "facts" that appear to have been added to this article recently.  Consequently, no form of unsourced content may be added to a wikipedia article.  If it is not reliably sourced, remove it on sight. <b style="color:forestgreen;">Happy</b>‑<b style="color:darkorange;">melon</b> 21:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course there is reason to omit the edits before the show airs simply because they aren't verifiable and especially so given todays false edits. None of the edits over the various weeks have been sourced as before the show airs there are no reliable sources to confirm the content. The edits made today were completely made up and false for whatever reason including a whole "speech" supposedly made by Andrew Lloyd Webber which he didn't make at all, the wrong contestant listed as being eliminated and the the "sing-off" song also made up and incorrect. There is no way of verifying whether they are factual or not each week until the show actually airs and given todays false edits it is impossible to say whether any edit made next week for instance prior to the show airing is factual or not until after the show. ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 21:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Questions regarding interpretation of WP:RS and WP:SPS
We have an ongoing discussion on WP:RSN regarding the RS-ness of the boxofficeindia.com site. I am of the view that it is not RS but some defenders of the site as a RS point to the less than a handful of citings of that site in RSes and are arguing that a source automatically becomes RS once it gets cited (even if only once) in a RS source. Atleast one editor has also opined that it is OK to use the "best sources we have" at hand even if they are not demonstrably RS. I neither see any merit in these arguments nor do I see any evidence of WP:RS and WP:SPS lending credence to these arguments. In fact, imo these arguments go against the very grain of WP:RS. I will be grateful if some eyes from here can take a look at the discussion and weigh in. Thanks. Sarvagnya 21:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

User talk:Bsrboy
The protection on User talk:Bsrboy has expired, and Bsrboy is once again asking to be unblocked. Since the protection has expired, could an admin please remove the protected tag on the page? <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix talk  22:24, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If the protection has expired, anyone may remove an outdated maintenance tag. Nakon  22:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't want to overstep. :)  <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix  talk  16:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Doritites bosniackii
For some reason I get a blacklisted noice when I try to add this page, one of many Parnassius previously submitted pages on Parnassius which wre without problems.My text with a taxobox links etc reads Doritites bosniackii is a fossil swallowtail butterfly in the subfamily Parnassiinae. The genus and it sole species was described from the Miocene of Tuscany, Italy Can you help please Robert (Nash) FRES aka Notafly (talk) 10:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ Some sort of glitch, obviously. -- Rodhull andemu  10:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Template:Last.fm TFD
An admin needs to close the Template:Last.fm TFD which has been going on for almost 3 weeks as there's a backlog. -Halo (talk) 17:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#060">Neıl <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#060">☎  18:01, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

need help unblocking
I am trying to unblock User:Ronmccaffer, a user I had blocked yesterday, but have come to an understanding with via email. Unfortunately, the network I am using right now has an Internet filter that is preventing me from performing the unblock. My guess is because it involves a URL that contains the word IPBlockList.

Can someone please unblock User:Ronmccaffer for me?

Thank you. Kingturtle (talk) 12:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Viridae Talk 12:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Redundant User Groups
Is there any reason why any of us administrators would need to have our accounts added to usergroups that gives us redundant permissions? (e.g. +sysop and (+ACC/RBK/IPBE)? — <font color="#FF9933" face="monotype">xaosflux  <font color="#00FF00">Talk 04:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No.  MBisanz  talk 04:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * My feeling is no as well, unless it's right before you give up your +sysop under non controversial circumstances, but wanted to get a wider view among others here before doing any cleanups. — <font color="#FF9933" face="monotype">xaosflux  <font color="#00FF00">Talk 04:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Or it's just toying with the permissions in a way that won't effect an any other account. UserRights management is a new thing for admins, and two more permissions in a day seems like a county fair.   Keegan talk 05:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That is the other issue, messing with user-rights to test things creates ugly, hard to monitor logs.  MBisanz  talk 05:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Note:I'm playing devil's advocate. I haven't messed with my own rights.  Well, how am I supposed to practice an learn how to use the function in a safe and secure manner unless it's on an account I own?  I'm not going to download MediaWiki and try to figure out how to install it because I know nothing about computers.  I can sympathize with the mushy logs, but as I said it is new and I don't anticipate this lasting forever.  Even practicing with test WP:NAS accounts will cause log entries.  I'm just going to put down a "Wet Floor!" sign.   Keegan talk 05:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I dont mind Rollbackery nonsense or even Account Creation, but IP block exempt is a powerful tool and tracking log entry adds and removals is tedious.  MBisanz  talk 06:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Wots IPBE? With regards to rollback, I prefer having that installed, so that should I ever temp desysop I have that straight away without the fuss of requesting it. That was used when I last went on a short no-tool break. Viridae Talk 06:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * IP block exempt, a tag long ago written by Werdna IIRC and is part of the admin package, is now available to be doled out by admins to unflagged editors with UserRights managment. Check your new shiny Special:UserRights options.   Keegan talk 06:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * While I know first had the struggles of all these new userrights management options and can understand one or two test, like MBisanz it screws up the logs and confuses users. I say that admins should not add themselves to "rollback" or "accountcreator" as there is really no need. I am all for going through and clearly out the large amount of new admins that still have "rollback". Tiptoety  talk 18:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If clogged logs are really an issue, going back and removing rollback from admin accounts will clog them even more. --barneca (talk) (see note @ top of my talk if I don't reply) 11:35, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, I went ahead (with the help of giggy and SQL) created New admin school/Accountcreator granting and revoking just in case anyone was curious. Cheers, Tiptoety  talk 18:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, all of the Mediawiki:Grouppage-* links have been filled in, so Special:ListGroupRights and any related links at least fill in properly now :-P <b style="color:#c22">^</b><b style="color:#000">demon</b><sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz] <em style="font-size:10px;">19:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Out of interest, could an admin upload a screenshot of the Special:UserRights panel? Thanks. <small style="white-space:nowrap;size:95%;color:#2F74FF">—<small style="background:#FFFFFF;border:#EB8500 1px solid;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px">TreasuryTag —<small style="background:#DBDBDB;border:#EB8500 1px solid;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px">t —<small style="background:#DBDBDB;border:#EB8500 1px solid;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px">c 13:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Here you go; that's what it looks like to an admin, it's more interesting for a 'crat and even more functional for a steward. --ais523 15:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that; of course, we don't have local Stewards, do we? <small style="white-space:nowrap;size:95%;color:#2F74FF">—<small style="background:#FFFFFF;border:#EB8500 1px solid;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px">TreasuryTag —<small style="background:#DBDBDB;border:#EB8500 1px solid;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px">t —<small style="background:#DBDBDB;border:#EB8500 1px solid;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px">c 15:56, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No, but Jimbo has a permission that lets him do the same thing. --ais523 08:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Well technically the Founder flag is the same as the Steward flag minus the Central-auth facility used for SUL renames and merges.  MBisanz  talk 08:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Sock block request
Kindly request that this sock be blocked. RFCU came up as "obvious". One of the socks as been blocked already, so the user was appropriately warned. Bstone (talk) 03:38, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Backlog
Just an FYI that we have a backlog at Editor review that could use some eyes on reducing.  MBisanz  talk 09:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Help requested on Templates for Deletion
We have a couple of issues happening at TfD. First of all, we have a backlog that goes back a couple of weeks. Any help would be appreciated. Secondly, right now, the bot that has been updating the pages daily is malfunctioning. So the pages are not being updated promptly. What does updating the pages involve? At 00:00 UTC, the previous day needs to be put under Current discussions and the 8th day before today needs to be put under Old Discussions so they can be closed. This is a summary of what needs to be done. Also, the current day needs to have ===Current Date=== added to the top of it. For example, today is ===May 11===. Any help would be appreciated as right now I'm the only one doing it and I can't get to it until 6-7 hours after 00:00 has been hit. It's causing discussions being placed in the wrong spot and other formatting stuff. Thanks! --WoohookittyWoohoo! 09:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Never mind :) Bot is working again. --WoohookittyWoohoo! 11:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Blind reversion of edits, despite earlier warnings
User:TharkunColl has been reported previously for blindly reverting articles without reasons or discussion. See here Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive414 for details. He is also the subject of the thread above entitled "Edit-Warring/Repeatedly deleting text with deliberately misleading edit summaries". It is clear that this editor is behaving in a disruptive manner. Whether or not he agrees or disagrees with the other editors or content, he must accept that this behaviour is not acceptable, and is disruptive. --Bardcom (talk) 11:46, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Please stop harrassing me with spurious and frivolous complaints all the time. Reverting an edit is not vandalism, as you have repeatedly called it. TharkunColl (talk) 13:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Tharky, as has been pointed out to you before on numberous occassions, reverting an edit without discussion or comment is vandalism. This is an incident requiring administrative attention and possible intervention. --Bardcom (talk) 14:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * No, it is not vandalism - as has been pointed out to you, on your own talkpage, by others. In any case, in my last edits I provided a summary. Satisfied? TharkunColl (talk) 14:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Despite your protestations, it *is* vandalism. And should an admin take the time to check your behaviour, they'll find that your behaviour is very disruptive, and whether it is related to a concept of content-dispute or not, this behaviour should not be tolerated.  --Bardcom (talk) 15:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * And as another case on ANI demonstrates, TharkunColl's edit summaries may not be based on truth or facts or the references. Wotapalaver (talk) 21:46, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No uninvolved editor agreed with Wotapalaver on AN/I that there was anything misleading about TharkunColl's edit summaries. This is forum shopping- the editors involved have already made 2 threads on ANI in the last few days- now they make a thread here instead because they're not happy with the responses they've got there IMHO.  If they'd posted this on ANI it would have been merged in the previous one perhaps.  Even if they believe this is a separate incident, there's no need to be posted on this board instead except in the hope of eliciting a response they prefer (i.e. forum shopping.) Even if they see Wot's issue as different from Bard's, bard already posted about it on AN/I a few days ago so why choose a different forum to raise his complaint I wonder.:) <font color="#FF1493">Merkin's   <font color="#FF1493">mum  22:50, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * On the subject I'm involved in TharkunColl's edit summaries were 100% misleading, untrue, non-factual, inaccurate. The diffs prove it. That may or may not have been the case with Bardcom's case.  The only reason it's worth mentioning is that TharkunColl is here claiming that the fact that he's making edit summaries means that there's no problem.  That may or may not be true.  As for a "they" making complaints, Bardcom and I are independent, unrelated, non-cooperating.   Hints otherwise are nnot only speculation, but wrong.  Wotapalaver (talk) 23:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

After reading on AN, I took a quick look.

Bardcom was making large scale changes, changing Great Britain to British Isles wherever they went, and this is what TharkunColl was reverting. I was almost fooled though, because TharkunColl uses rather succinct edit summaries when reverting these, (to wit "Rv.".) It might have been better to provide a somewhat longer summary or even a link. :-)

Note that this was a quick look. There might still be other things going on that people "forgot" to mention. ;-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 00:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Rv. means revert doesn't it, lots of people use that in edit summaries when they revert, so it just describes what he did. I don't think not mentioning what he was reverting specifically, if that's what TharkunColl did, is misleading.  Anyway he seems to be explaining all his edits in the edit summary very thoroughly now, in a fair few of the last ones Special:Contributions/TharkunColl.   Of course that he has to explain in an edit summary, hints that he fears he will be reverted by edit warriors other highly motivated contributors.:) <font color="#FF1493">Merkin's   <font color="#FF1493">mum  11:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Non-deletion proposal at MfD needs to be closed
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Sharkface217/Award Center 2 isn't a page deletion proposal - it's a proposal to delete certain types of entries from a page, and therefore doesn't belong at MfD. It also involves setting policy about how barnstars can and cannot be used, and policy proposals don't belong at MfD. Someone please close the discussion. Thank you. The Transhumanist 04:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * As an outside observer who closes XfD's I agree. This acts like a content issue. Whether parts are removed is negotiable yet its in userspace and for the good of the pedia. I'd close it myself but I'd be reverted as its semi-controversial now. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 04:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Deletion policy states: Disputes over page content are not dealt with by deleting the page. Likewise, disagreement over a policy or guideline is not dealt with by deleting it. Similarly, issues with an inappropriate user page can often be resolved through discussion with the user.  The content issues should be discussed at the relevant talk page, and other methods of dispute resolution should be used first, such as listing on Requests for comments for further input. Deletion discussions that are really unresolved content disputes may be closed by an administrator, and referred to the talk page or other appropriate forum.  The Transhumanist  05:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I have closed the MfD's discussion. The closure was not an endorsement of Keep, Delete, or No Consensus, but rather that The Transhumanist is correct about the policy.  XfDs are not forums to force community discussion when there is not a true belief on the part of the nominator that the content is inappropriate for Wikipedia.   Keegan talk 06:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I can't find the appropriate Request for Comment template, so I'll initiate a discussion on the talk page, most likely where it will be ignored. But, meh. I just see an issue with certain tasks. If they're ignored, then so be it. <font face="Lucida Calligraphy" color="blue">Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 06:11, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hm, I can't find a proper template either. This should probably go to RfC, any ideas of how to process it?   Keegan talk 06:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'd like one, there is no doubt that a Request for Comment is required. I'd also like to note that The Transhumanist never commented on my talk page, unlike how Sharkface did. There are issues that need to be addressed here, and ignoring them isn't going to help anyone, especially our new editors. <font face="Lucida Calligraphy" color="blue">Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 06:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I haven't responded yet, because the discussion hasn't been posted in the proper forum. If restrictions are going to be made on barnstars (on what they can and cannot be offered for), the discussion should take place at Wikipedia talk:Barnstars.  The Transhumanist  16:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Prem Rawat
This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. Evidence presented did not disclose a history of problematic editing, in terms of basic content policy, by Jossi, and the Committee commended Jossi's self-imposed restriction to edit only talk pages for Prem Rawat related articles. Due to a history of incivility and personal attacks surrounding articles related to the Prem Rawat movement, the preexisting community enforced one-revert rule on Prem Rawat and related articles that commenced March 4, 2008, has been superceeded by Arbitration Committee enforced article probation. John Vandenberg (chat) 15:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Users talk page
Would someone please have a look at this users talk page - User talk:Irishman66 which claims to list the full name and address of a boy who they claim is vandalising an article on wikipedia. Surely that is not acceptable on wikipedia? Thank you. ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 16:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

And just to point out that despite the above being removed, the user has recreated it here Wikipedia talk:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive59. ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 16:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Both should be gone <span style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;">— Alex . Muller 16:24, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Deleted from talk page and will notify Oversight assuming nobody else has done so. -- Rodhull andemu  16:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Aye, thanks for the quick responses, both are gone now.I presume they were made in good faith to report a vandal, just not the way to do it, so maybe someone could point the user in the right direction how to report the vandal? Thanks again. ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 16:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

DRV backlog
Looks like there are quite a few DRVs that need to be closed. Is there some way we can add old DRVs to a queue of some kind, like WP:AFDO? GlassCobra 07:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ironically, the AfD backlog is meagre, for a change. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it'd help if someone would just to close a few. Deletion review/Log/2008 April 26 has one outstanding, after that the next with any open is Deletion review/Log/2008 May 4.  I don't think we need anything special done to them, except a few closes would be nice.  Cheers.  --<i style="color:green;">lifebaka</i> (Talk - Contribs) 22:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikistalking
What are rules for Wiki stalking ? Is it allowed ? I being wikistalked by Ragib. I will be making a formal complain to Wikipedia. Misaq Rabab (talk) 20:16, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Diffs? EVula // talk // ☯  // 20:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

This is a ridiculous accusation. The user Misaq Rabab has recently made a lot of disruption in various articles, some of which are on my watchlist. Some examples are below:


 * Modifying a direct quotation to change the word "Pakstan" to "Pakistan" (see the article for the scan of the pamphlet which includes the spelling "Pakstan")
 * Repeating the above in other articles as well ,


 * Unilaterally removing many articles from Category:Bangladesh Liberation War to Category:Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 (which are two separate, but related wars), (,  (this one also includes blanking references and reference list sections) etc.


 * Incorrectly replacing any reference/wikilink for Bangladesh Liberation War (March 26-Dec 16, 1971) to Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 (Dec 3 - Dec 16, 1971). (e.g. and several more).

Note that, this is not an isolated behavior pattern by the user ... he has recently also removed categories from many other articles in the same manner .. see User talk:Misaq_Rabab for details.

This user has also been involved with creating many non-notable or copyvio articles, such as Karakoram Motors, Ahmad Ali Jinnah, Category:Name, Kiani (cartoon).

Since this user displays such disruptive behavior, I have looked into some of his edits which violate wikipedia policies. In each case, I notified the user about his disruptive behavior and requested to stop. Under no circumstances did I edit or undo any of his other non-disruptive edits. So, I find his accusation of "stalking" quite objectionable. --Ragib (talk) 21:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed research test for better editing
I would like to propose a research experiment that may help better Wikipedia.

Hypothesis: Anonymous editing leads to less responsible editing, more edit warring, worse encyclopedia.

Practical considerations: Naturally, changing the requirement that prohibits editors from hiding behind a user name is such a large change that it will not happen.

How about asking people to do so, instead, so it is purely voluntary?

Research design: I propose to edit by my real name and will verify it with a trusted person, such as an Administrator who edits by their real name. Then I will ask up to 50 new editors if they wish to participate. After 30 days (can be extended), I will look at the behavior of these editors versus up to 50 randomly selected new editors and see if disclosure of real names promotes better writing compared to the other group.

Opinions? Are you opposed to this research or will you allow it to start? JerryVanF (talk) 06:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I just thought of how some cynics might think. So we'll use a random number chart to select the users whom we will ask to participate. The details are not yet important. The first step is to get opinions about this research project. JerryVanF (talk) 06:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I have a structural "issue" with your proposal: there are 2 variables. The first is use of a "real" name. The second is the message from you asking them to participate in a study and to use their real name. To make this a randomized controlled trial, you'd have to be able to assign editors to the "anon" and "realname" groups. Self-selection, which is what would happen here, is a powerful contaminant.
 * You could create a cohort study, wherein you ask the next X hundred editors if they are editing with a false or a real name, then aggregate their activities into "anon" and "realname" groups for purposes of analysis. This would still be subject to self-selection, but then at least you're asking both groups the same question. It wouldn't really answer the question you're trying to ask, but it'd be interesting, anyway. Antelan <sup style="color:#b00000;">talk  06:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply. I was afraid the first reply would be "shut up Jerry".


 * Self selection is a factor. However, it may be a practical first step.  I think it is too big a change if the research project shows better editing with real names so that effective Jan. 1, 20--, all editors must edit this way.  A more practical change would be that Wikipedia encourages people to edit by their real names and this would be based on our study.  If the new policy is voluntary then it's ok that we allow people to choose real names or not when then start participation.


 * The trouble with asking if people are editing with real names is that few usernames even sound like real names so I would think that <1% of editors do that. JerryVanF (talk) 06:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, my name is my name, for what it's worth, and that's an interesting idea for a sociological experiment. From my practical experience, I've found that continuous  edit warring usually comes from registered accounts and the fact that registering an account hides IPs, thus anonymizing the edit warring with sock puppets.  IPs usually just prove that Friends of gays should not edit Wikipedia.  So I think that your hypothesis would prove what we all have observed to be social practice.  Is it practical?  Give it a try.   Keegan talk 07:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Using your real name online is rarely safe, and it is officially advised against by at least the British government. Why would you encourage people to perform dangerous activities when government (expert?!) advice is to the contrary? <small style="white-space:nowrap;size:95%;color:#2F74FF">—<small style="background:#FFFFFF;border:#EB8500 1px solid;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px">TreasuryTag —<small style="background:#DBDBDB;border:#EB8500 1px solid;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px">t —<small style="background:#DBDBDB;border:#EB8500 1px solid;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px">c 07:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This is not encouragement, but asking for willing participation.
 * Now, to get philosophical, Wikipedia was started to flesh out articles for Nupedia, whose articles were authored with real names. From what I understand (I wasn't there), Wikipedia started out with everyone knowing everyone's name, an signing with initials.  Now as the project grew in size, membership, and web ranking, obviously anonymity became important and still is.  Off wiki harrassment is a very real thing.
 * The point of the GFDL and free distribution is the selflessness of authorship- some are proud to put their name on the work and then release it, others do it under a pseudonym. It's not an exercise in vanity, but an exercise in awareness of freedom from intellectual property.
 * I think that however one chooses to participate online in a community of such internet standing should be fully aware of the consequences of either anonymizing or openness. Such a study could be greatly interesting in that regard.   Keegan talk 07:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Why is this on WP:AN? MickMacNee (talk) 11:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC). And the proposed 'experiment' is clearly set up to prove a point. The Kansas schoolboard would be so proud. MickMacNee (talk) 11:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

We have done some number crunching already. Over half of unregistered edits are useful, that's why the wiki tends towards order over time. --Kim Bruning (talk) 12:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC) There's this company this one economist(?) ran (he down-shifted from his previous job to an office confectionery delivery company ;-) ), where he relied on the observation that ~80-90% of his customers were honest. I'm sure the story is on wikipedia somewhere in an article. Now where was that again?
 * You probably mean Paul Feldman. GlobeGores (talk page | user page) 18:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

HYPOTHESIS: Editors who tend to edit responsibly would be more willing to disclose their real name than editors who do not. How does this proposed experiment distinguish between this hypothesis and your original hypothesis? I don't believe it does, which means you can't distinguishe between cause and effect. Andrew Jameson (talk) 15:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC) (not my real name, BTW)

Nice idea, but selection bias would be too big a problem. Andrew Jameson (if that isn't his real name), says it best: There's no way to tell if people are editing well because they're using their real name or their using their real name because they intend to edit well. --Tango (talk) 15:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There is the possibility that a person could be using another person's name and claiming to be them while potentially ruining that person's name by making really bad edits. We have seen that on AN/I before some one (no names will be mentioned) used some one else name and blanked AN/I. I my self use my real name to edit and as so I try to make non-controversial just in case. But that is me. There is the second part here. A user could use their real name to edit but not care what others think and just make whatever edits they feel regardless of it's potential post-effects. I myself am not opposed to this. But I do see it being a little flawed. <span style="font-family:Papyrus, sans-serif; color:#775ca8;">Rgoodermote  20:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * We're not in Kansas analogy territory anymore; more like Durham Country Council, I think. Regardless of flaws, I can't see how this project could ever generate benefits that would outweigh the harm. How do we reconcile "use your real name" with "the encyclopedia anyone can edit" and with the longstanding policy that registration is not necessary? The majority of contributors would be put off registering, I think, and we have enough issues with death threats and harassment already. S HEFFIELD S TEEL TALK 20:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You forget lawsuits. (added) I really thought this guy was studying the difference between those who use Pseudonames and those who use their Real Names to edit. I was kind of for that. <span style="font-family:Papyrus, sans-serif; color:#775ca8;">Rgoodermote  20:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

HYPOTHESIS:The research proposer wants to prove anonymous editing is bad for the 'pedia, and therefore once proven we can launch the zomg bots on them and the world will be a better place, free of lies, bullshit and deceit. I ask only for US$3m to be able to research this. MickMacNee (talk) 01:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for all of your replies. (unlike MickNacNee, I will work for free) I plan to begin a very small pilot study of maybe as few as 10 users. I plan to find an administrator who could work with me as either co-author, question answerman/woman, ethics review panel, etc. Since I will ask users if they are using their real names, I will ask the same question to myself and reveal my real name. I do listen to others. One said that there should be some sort of privacy. So I will change the research design so that only a first initial or a shortened family name will be requested (for example P. Hilton or Paris Hilt instead of Paris Hilton).JerryVanF (talk) 02:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments on mail below. JerryVanF (talk) 17:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Any administrator with a post office box?
REQUEST relating to above discussion: Is there an administrator who has a post office box and is willing to receive a letter from me. I wish to send a legal document for my study. You don't need a post office box but I would feel more comfortable not asking for your street address. You can e-mail it to me. JerryVanF (talk) 02:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You need to [mailto:info-en-o@wikimedia.org email the Foundation] about that. Administrators are volunteers, and we have no affiliation with the legal matters of Wikipedia.  The WikiMedia Foundation maintains in-house as well as outside counsel for document review.   Keegan talk 05:41, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This is not a legal document pertaining to WikiMedia. I wish to send me research plan and my real name to an administrator, who will act as sort of an ethical review board.  This is the best way to run a research project.  If I mail it to WikiMedia, they will have no idea what is going on.  There are some administrators who say who they are and whose address can be easily googled but I want them to volunteer, not for me to force a letter on them. JerryVanF (talk) 05:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * In what sense is the document a "legal document", then? <small style="white-space:nowrap;size:95%;color:#2F74FF">—<small style="background:#FFFFFF;border:#EB8500 1px solid;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px">TreasuryTag —<small style="background:#DBDBDB;border:#EB8500 1px solid;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px">t —<small style="background:#DBDBDB;border:#EB8500 1px solid;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px">c 13:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It may just simply be an agreement. Dunno. Does it have to be an administrator? NonvocalScream (talk) 14:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Jerry, I have a postal address and I use it for WMA and a number of people here have it already. If I knew you and if you had taken the time to establish a reputation here I would have been willing to accept mail from you, but you've been here for a week and have around 100 edits to your name and I think anyone willing to accept mail from you under these circumstances should seriously reconsider, especially given your very short wiki short career here (at least with this account). Frankly, saying you don't want to force snail mail on one of us by looking up our addresses is extremely alarming. If you have a legitimate reason for sending mail then you need to send it to the Foundation. There are administrators who work there and if your purposes are genuine and legitimate then I'm sure they'd consider helping you. Other than that I do not recommend any users give out their real world identities and postal addresses to a new user with one hundred edits to their name and some very strange and suspicious behaviour. If this is in relation to User talk:JerryVanF then you don't need our mailing addresses to do that. You can simply email an administrator you trust (although that may be difficult for you to decide given your short wikicareer) and provide said information electronically, if you really want to. The rest of that proposal, selecting the fifth username after "troublemaker" usernames and making them part of your study whether they like it or not ("I will then ask every 5th name if they want to participate...If they don't, they will be assigned to the anonymous group.") sounds very peculiar and I might suggest that you would do better spending the time working on the actual encyclopedia, which is what we're here for, not mandated studies of other users. Sarah 00:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The purpose of my request is simple. I want to let an administrator know who I am and prove it to the administrator. Anyone who proves their identity is going to be on their best behavior. This is the first step of doing a good research project. I think it even has worked with me. I was going to edit something a bit silly then I thought that people will know Jerry did it and not some anony-user.JerryVanF (talk) 17:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Question...
What's the current position regarding a WP:BADSITE's campaign to add a slogan to your wikipedia page, which they then google to contact you? More specifically, should this be reverted? Blocked? Ignored? Could someone who understands our current policy (there must be someone) have a look?<font face="Trebuchet MS"> — <font color="#E45E05">iride <font color="#C1118C">scent  21:27, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * My past interactions with this user suggests he seems to have serious issues understanding what Wikipedia actually is, and now he appears to simply be trolling. I support the removal of the comment and another reminder of what Wikipedia is about, and that his right to free speech is not what he thinks it is. J Milburn (talk) 22:02, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree with removal of that...it really has no place here, badsites or not. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 07:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I should point out BADSITES is, thankfully, a wholly failed proposal. My reaction would have been to ignore it. There's no policy against a user writing "tell the wikitruth". (just don't say it three times in a row!!) <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#060">Neıl  <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#060">☎  09:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing what you guys are discussing here (If I got this right) is that I posted TELL THE WIKITRUTH in my page and it caused a problem? It seems the other problem is my debate on the Freedom of Speech and my site? If so what do you want me to do?

Just to make it clear my intentions are not to bring down the Wikipedia or to make it look bad. The only goal we have if you read our Freedom of Speech page is to ensure the protection of certain inalienable rights to the people. PediaOpeness.org is all about keeping options open for people and making sure that their freedoms are in tact. If we wanted to make the Wikipedia look bad we would write up bad things about the Wikipedia but the Wikipedia Administrators and other Wikipedia users already did that for us. All I'm stating at my Wikipedia link is that others agree that there is an attitude or belief at the Wikipedia that the Freedom of Speech needs to be much more limited than it is on our site. I don't understand this. Neutral777 (talk) 00:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Is NPW dead?
Posting here to attract a few more eyeballs to the issue as posting to the relevant talk pages has gone unanswered. For over a month now, New Page Watcher has been unable to populate it's list of new articles. A user can log in, but that's as far as one can go. Early reports were that it was a server-side problem, but it's been several weeks since any replies have come in. Martin is apparently still on a wikibreak, and Snowolf quit completely. Is there anyone left to fix the problem, or is it time to declare NPW a dead project? DarkAudit (talk) 15:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Reedy Boy and Martijn Hoekstra may be able to help out, but they, as far as I am aware, were not as active as Martinp23/Snowolf in keeping the program running. Have you tried contacting them? It'd be a shame to lose it- I used it for ages before it died, and it's a great program. J Milburn (talk) 15:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * My only contact with them had been through their talk pages. Martinp23 hasn't responded, and Snowolf quit before I could leave a message. DarkAudit (talk) 16:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've pinged everyone on the NPW IRC channel (me, Martinp23, Snowolf, Reedy and a bot who I didn't realise was a bot) and alerted them to this thread. J Milburn (talk) 16:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * User talk:Martinp23/NPWatcher - I've just been busy lately. And Martinp23 has been away since a wiki-drama... As per the NPW Page, when im past exams (about a week from now), i'll have time to look into sorting out the bugs and such. Martijn is semi-active on the launchpad, and sometimes on IRC. It wont die, just inactive for a bit... I need to start pumping more time into AWB too, but that will come post exams too =) —<font face="Trebuchet MS"> Ree dy  16:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've just been busy with exams recently, and remain as such. The bug was reported some time last week I think.  Hopefully we can get a fix out within the next week or so, exams and our time pending. Martinp23 16:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

User keeps removing sourced statistics and suspected sockpuppet
The user Muscovite99 is continually removing sourced statistics from the Putin article. First he said the material was OR, then after I explained it to him he attacked the sources (Associated press and MSNBC). He said "The hacks you quote have absolutely no idea what they're writing" and "the figure plucked from MSNBC wiretape was written by some one who (CIA or not) is an absolute ignoramus." (see discussion), even though I made it clear that he was violationg WP:V. He ended up getting blocked for 48 hours for violating 3RR. Now he's back from his block, and the first thing he does is revert back and remove the statistics. He now says the material is poorly sourced/original research, even though the material is clearly and perfectly sourced.

Also, during his block a suspected sockpuppet, Trysty, removed the same material here. The suspected sockpuppet is a one purpose account (looks like he made some very minor edits to other articles to try and make it less obvious, as well as making his name blue), and notice how he used the comment box citing wiki policy, and even uses the same rationalle for removing the statistics.

Muscovite99: "Put back the proper source - the article is about Putin and his word should be taken over AP claims or Krawn's original research about PPP and "nominal GDP"

Trysty: "Apparent WP:OR -- the cited source does not speak of PPP or "nominal GDP" -- per WP:V" Krawndawg (talk) 19:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

One of those articles Trysty edited, Gennady Timchenko, rather obscure, has been edited by Muscovite as well diff. Krawndawg (talk) 19:45, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Just a note: i removed Krawndawg's conjectural interpretation of a source (the AP article he bases his claims about GDP in terms of "PPP" and "nominal GDP", contains no such thing, and thus his frivolous insertions of the terms constitute original reaearch) in accordance with WP:BLP, which inter alia states: "The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals". I mention the latter as I avail myself of this opportunity to state that my recent blocking was not per WP:POL.Muscovite99 (talk) 19:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Also I should like to draw the attention to the exceedingly rude and obscene language that is habitually employed by Krawndawg in his communication with other editors, such as these .Muscovite99 (talk) 19:56, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Lets look at the differences here.


 * The version you just reverted said: "the economy bounced back from crisis seeing GDP increase six-fold"


 * The article says: "Average wages rose eightfold during Putin's eight years as president, from roughly $80 a month to $640, and GDP sixfold."


 * What's original research? What's contentious? (do you even know what that word means?)
 * And even though I've already explained it to you, Putin was talking about the PPP GDP, which did indeed grow 72% over the past 8 years. There is no conflicting information here, the only problem is your ignorance on the subject and your inability to differentiate between nominal (normal) and PPP GDP.Krawndawg (talk) 20:02, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not going to discuss any thing related to the subject of the article as it is pointless to debate with a person who had already opened the debate with the assertion addressed to me «you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and I don't feel it's my job to educate you». I shall only repeat your correct words (apply them to your very fascinating inquisitions about "PPP" et al): "That's a very interesting opinion, but wikipedia is not a soap box or blog, nor is it the place for original research.".Muscovite99 (talk) 20:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * [Also all this economics numbers have no place in a biographical article per WP:BLP].Muscovite99 (talk) 20:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Please look at this. That's the economic growth of Russia, in both nominal and PPP figures, according to the IMF. Those figures are identical to the sourced figures that I inserted into the article and that you continually remove.


 * Please revert yourself and in the future do your research the next time you decide to bring up such a silly debate about verifiable facts. Krawndawg (talk) 20:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * This appears to be a content dispute, although one that appears to also include possible socking, allegations of incivility, the questioning of sources that have been held as reliable in many other contexts, and the interpretation of sources. In all, this is not a sysop matter (as yet). I suggest that a form of dispute resolution is attempted, possibly a request for comment. That said, my reading of the above suggests that Muscovite99 is arguing from fairly shaky grounds - the statement of a politician (especially regarding their own constituency) being more reliable than a reliable source? I think not. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:28, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It is obvious that nominal GDP is irrelevant. Most serious studies analyze real GDP (i.e. inflation adjusted GDP). --Doopdoop (talk) 20:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * My main complaint here isn't about the content. It's the fact that he's violating WP:V by removing correct and well sourced information (regardless of what it is), and is suspected to have used a sockpuppet during a block. Krawndawg (talk) 20:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Is there a consensus you can point to that indicates that the sources are agreed as being reliable, rather than quoting the policy? While I have sympathy with your argument that reliable sources are being removed it is not considered vandalism where there is good faith belief that it isn't a reliable source - or can you provided evidence that it is not a good faith belief no matter how inappropriate it might seem. Until there is evidence that the editor is acting either against consensus or in bad faith there is nothing an admin can do except suggest taking it to dispute resolution. Once there is a clear line then an admin can act to ensure there are no violations of policy/consensus. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:02, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well isn't the fact that he keeps changing his story enough evidence? He stopped calling them unreliable sources, then started using the "PPP" argument to justify removing it. To me it's pretty clear that he just doesn't want the information that GDP grew 6fold on the article no matter what, this is evident if you look at his posts in the articles discussion page. Krawndawg (talk) 21:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Is there a consensus you can point to that indicates that the sources are agreed as being reliable, rather than quoting the policy?" - Does that mean if I gain consensus on the reliable sources notice board it will change anything? Krawndawg (talk) 21:24, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have taken the opportunity to fully review the complaint, and while I feel that it is still in the basis of a content dispute I acknowledge that Muscovite99 was incorrect in insisting that the sources mentioned should be removed, and for edit warring over their removal; the guideline being Bold, Revert, Discuss. The content should remain unless Muscovite99 can change the consensus to that they are inappropriate by use of debate on the article talkpage. I shall advise Muscovite accordingly, commenting that any further removal of content without consensus is vandalism and can therefore be reported to WP:AIV as such. I suggest, although with little expectation of agreement, that you continue to engage this person in discussion regarding the validity of sources and their interpretation. I hope this suffices. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Krawndawg (talk) 21:50, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

This is not a dispute about sources. It is a dispute about which facts taken from the sources are relevant for the article, and which of them amount to POV pushing. As nominal GDP is distorted by inflation, citing nominal GDP growth as an example of a successfull policy is misleading POV. Real GDP growth should be cited in such contexts in order to comply with the NPOV requirements. --Doopdoop (talk) 19:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia Review Part of the Porn Smear Campaign
My guess is that it's WR's resident high school music teacher, TheFieryAngel, but somebody has been engaged in trying to whip up conservative frenzy over pornography, tarring me in the process and bringing in Wikia boy scout stuff that has nothing to do with Wikipedia. Here are two posts on "The Lonely Conservative" website (the second clearly placed by a WR member - perhaps the one who suggested they bring it into the mix: TheFieryAngel): So, for all you Wikipedia people who go on WR, if the defamation of the Deputy Director of the WMF wasn't enough, and their extortion negotiations of Newyorkbrad wasn't enough, now we have a porn smear campaign that doesn't even involve our website. --<font color="#0000C0">David <font color="#0000C0">Shankbone  20:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia porn feedback - boy scout spanking art on Wikia
 * Parent alert Wikipedia contains porn
 * Oh, ignore. Wikipedia Review are a bunch of silly fools with little influence. Also, they are highly prone to changing their minds. Six months ago they were painting me as the biggest villain in the West since Al Capone. Now I'm actually reasonably popular over there. Doubtless six months from now they'll be so pleased with you they'll be trying to get jobs for you, and I'll be done in the tar pit again. Life goes on much as it did before either way. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 20:32, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, considering the Valleywag stuff may very well cost someone their job and working status in the U.S., this is quite serious. They have attributed statements to Erik that he never made - complete defamation.  They have repeated my psychopathic troll's allegations that I live with Michael Lucas - which is why I came down so hard on User:SqueakBox, for listening to them and then coming here as if I live with Lucas and have a COI.  They only have influence because some of us are foolish enough to hang out over there, and then bring their words over here.  --<font color="#0000C0">David <font color="#0000C0">Shankbone  20:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * David, not only have I never said or thought you live with Michael Lucas or encouraged others to do so but I also shifted that thread away from its focus such mindless gossip and onto talking about your actions and interactions at wikipedia, which IMO was a helpful thing to do as your actions here are anyway public and also what WR should be about, ie reviewing wikipedia instead of trying to out wikipedians rela life activities, which I have not ever engaged in and which i oppose always in principle and practice. Indeed I retuirend to posting at WR after several months of not doing sdo in order to get my pic removed from the old Hive Mind site that got reposted, and successfuilly got that page reduced 40% in content. Now that is really helping real live wikipedians. Thanks, SqueakBox 20:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * To be honest, SqueakBox, that is why I was so pissed off with you - you had replied in that thread and quoted the allegations, and the thread was over my COI, and then you came here talking about my COI with the photos - that's why I thought you were repeating those allegations. For three months I had some psychopath vandalizing my work and threatening to come after me at Wiki events, and TheFieryAngel had to go searching not only on the Polish Wikipedia to find my troll's "I live with Michael Lucas" ridiculousness, but she had to find it in a cache since I removed the comments back in April (also on the Italian, French, Dutch, German...).  The fact is, this pretty typical for WR - and their behavior has gotten more outrageous in the last few months.  --<font color="#0000C0">David <font color="#0000C0">Shankbone  20:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * David, Squeak is a constant troublemaker when it comes to sluething other users he thinks are rotten apples. He's always quick to label them wikipervs and try to get them banned. I'm not surprised that he engaged in dubious tactics when it came to you. He's given cover to at least one SPA who come here solely to wikistalk and to attack editors who they believed to be immoral. I'm sure we all remember Pol from a few months back who was harassing everyone with all caps unfounded allegations for just editing a page tangential to the articles which shall not be named. Those two managed to drive away a pretty decent contributor who got sick of their screwing around with cats so that they could continue to fight so-called evildoers. Nobody dares to edit the controversial pages anymore, lest he go crying to arbcom with lies and innuendo about you being a supposed PPA. Just ask SwatJester, who he was terribly hostile towards for having the temerity to dispute him on a page about an anti-PPA. But his actions do lead to many lulz for the channers, so if we want to continue the dramaz, then by all means. --Dragon695 (talk) 19:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

David does have a point. We would all be better off ignoring Wikipedia Review as much as possible, though very occasionally the site can be useful. If people think something unethical is going on as regards Wikipedia's internal processes, I hear The Register is always eager is listen :) Moreschi (talk) (debate) 20:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I certainly do not want to fight with you, David. I think WR makes for a good read but Moreschi may be right that posting there can create issues, David is nott he only person to have commented on my return there to me. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Moreschi. I think we need to stop paying attention and taking up their issues.  I made the point over there that they only have themselves and Wikipedians as their audience.  Good faith editors (like User:B, User:SqueakBox, User:Lar, User:Alison, User:LessHeard vanU and User:David Shankbone (me), amongst others) go there, listen to them, but in the end they are only trying to hurt Wikipedia - not improve it.  Sometimes they have valid issues, and I used to think they were not so bad, but now they have gone crazy.  Newyorkbrad was the last straw, and their defamation of Erik is OTT, actually attributing false statements in quotes to him that he never wrote or said. Repeating my troll's sociopathic comments is just par for the course. --<font color="#0000C0">David <font color="#0000C0">Shankbone  21:01, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * David, with the greatest of respect you are a bit wide of the mark regarding Newyorkbrad because 1) Daniel Brandt is not Wikipedia Review. He is a member, just as you are and isn't even a mod, etc and 2) Brad quit due to a thread on Don Murphy's forum, not WR. Let's not try and criticise them for things they haven't done. If one person on Wikipedia uploads pictures of someone molesting a dead body, does that make me and you necrophiliacs? George The Dragon (talk) 13:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * In cases like these, I think we should just ignore them. I've been lurking around on their forums for the past few days.  For the most part, it's filled with just crap.  Every now and again, though, they bring up a few points about BLP subjects that no one else noticed, though, so I don't think we should shut them out entirely.   Celarnor  <sup style="color:#7733ff;">Talk to me  22:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * We need to be exceptionally careful that no one does anything irresponsible like try to remove references to this brewing controversy from article space, if it's properly sourced--even if that sourcing "names" Wikipedia users or WMF employees. Many, many eyes are on this, and even if those are eyes we don't like, that doesn't matter. If we play games with this in any way it will burn a hole in us with the media. Lawrence Cohen  §  t / e  22:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed policy change
There is a proposal at WT:PROT to ensure that it is the "right" version (rather than the "current" version) that gets protected when protection is applied to stop edit wars.--Kotniski (talk) 08:44, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It ended a little while back. It appears that they are singing "In the Army Now", "Down Down" and "Pictures of Matchstick Men". LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Edward G. Nilges edit warring on Herbert Schildt
An anonymous user with various IPs from Hong Kong, identifying himself as Edward G. Nilges – also known as – is edit warring on. He claims BLP issues because we are reporting public statements by experts saying that Schildt's books contain factual errors. Looks like a conspiracy theory to me. I am not familiar with the exact status of this user (banned or just blocked) and the fine points of our policies. Is it OK to edit war with him? How about temporary semiprotection of this BLP page? --Hans Adler (talk) 08:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * While I haven't decided on the third source in that section, "public statements by experts" are irrelevant as far as BLPs are concerned, when those statements are negative. In fact, no criticisms should be included that are sourcable only to self-published sources. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:50, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * From the BLP noticeboard discussion I was under the impression that this is not a BLP issue. If you think otherwise you should comment there. --Hans Adler (talk) 09:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Could someone please have a look at Talk:Herbert Schildt? Edward G. Nilges seems to claim that while the user account Spinoza1111 is banned, he, as the person behind it, is not affected. Does this make some sense because of BLP exemptions? Note that he doesn't claim to be the subject himself.

As a German mathematician I am also a bit sensitive to comments like the following:


 * I think what you are doing is creating a mathematical model of ethnic cleansing and genocide, since all you have to do is say I am "banned", to have people disrespect anything I might say.
 * This is in fact a cybernetic and virtual way of calling a person a "jew" in order not to have to deal with him. I say that subconsciously you may be repeating a nasty historical theme in a new way.

I don't think I have done anything that warrants such an extreme reaction. FCYTravis has protected the article on Nilges' version after these absurd accusations (probably without reading them). Since Nilges is currently the only person who argues for the "wrong version", do we have to seek a consensus with a banned user to get it changed? --Hans Adler (talk) 09:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Since User:Spinoza1111 is indefinitely blocked, if he edits using an IP, that represents block evasion, and the IP can be blocked without further ado. (I'm willing to do so, but since it seems to be a dynamic IP such a block would be pointless. It would be more logical to semi-protect Herbert Schildt). Since Nilges is not banned, his edits don't qualify for immediate undoing without discussion. I'm tempted to think he has a point about Schildt's book. Though Schildt's work may be of dubious value, if the only negative review is from a self-published site on the web, that makes it questionable whether we should include the criticism. I bet there is a way of rephrasing the point so the criticism doesn't entirely depend on self-published material. Maybe there is published criticism elsewhere.


 * I see that Hans Adler removed a lengthy tirade by Nilges from Talk:Herbert Schildt and that removal seems correct to me. Nilges' claim that we have to listen to him since he is not banned doesn't make sense; I believe that editors on each talk page can agree to remove Nilges' comments. Before getting into an edit war with Nilges you should first ask an admin to semi-protect whatever page it is. EdJohnston (talk) 20:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the careful explanation, and especially for the clear instruction not to edit war with Nilges. I actually agree now that a section "Criticisms of Schildt's books" was too much, even though I still believe that this criticism is his main claim to notability and must not be swept under the carpet. --Hans Adler (talk) 22:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Centralized discussion/Image placeholders
Would it be possible for an uninvolved and impartial admin(s) to close this centralized discussion?

I set up the discussion on 11 April, following a proposal (to suspend use of the image placeholder graphic on article pages) here. The debate was widely notified through WP (as a centralized discussion, RFC, on the Signpost and various projects). More than 50 editors participated in exchanges about this controversial issue. The discussion closed by agreement on 23 April. Conclusions were debated between 23 April and 11 May.

AFAIK none of us had prior experience of managing a centralized discussion and it's been difficult for to keep the process moving forward to secure a satisfactory outcome, given the lack of general guidelines and the inevitable difficulty of applying consensus policy to such a large and polarized group of people.

Please note I have no intention of criticizing any of my fellow editors here (or indeed of replying to any personal attacks). I just think it is time to hand over the discussion to neutral and disinterested parties for closure. Is this the right place to make that request? Thank you and regards. --Kleinzach (talk) 01:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I've moved this from ANI (where there was no response). Maybe this is a better place for it? --Kleinzach (talk) 00:55, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I've taken a stab at drafting a solution: Centralized_discussion/Image_placeholders. Not being an administrator, I cannot impose a binding resolution, but this should help anyone who wants to step forward. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 21:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Much appreciated given the scale of the discussion. I hope a 'closing admin' can draft the wording for Centralized discussion/Conclusions and indicate a suitable place for technical discussions to continue. --Kleinzach (talk) 23:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

User name
Is it ok, for my username to contain celebrities, or famous leaders, or is it prohibited. Buddha24 (talk) 21:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not ok - see WP:Username policy. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#060">Neıl <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#060">☎  21:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you referring you your current one? Buddha24 is ok, if thats what you meant. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 21:34, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * As someone that's very active on WP:UAA, I can safely say that I would steadfastly decline a request there in regards to your username. I think it's perfectly fine. EVula // talk // ☯  // 22:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It's generally only not accepted if you use the name in a way that either (a) looks like you're impersonating them, or (b) constitutes a verbal attack against them. Confusing Manifestation (Say hi!) 23:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Edit war
Endless edit war in Olympiacos F.C. during the 3 last days. - Sthenel (talk) 22:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It started a while ago. Multiple IPs are involved, and some logged in users too. <font color="#000080">Cena <font color="#1560bd">rium <font color="#000090"> (talk) 22:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

MFD Backlog
Any non-involved administrator is invited to close the backlogged discussions at MFD. Thank you, — <font color="#FF9933" face="monotype">xaosflux  <font color="#00FF00">Talk 00:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Unauthorized bots
I recently discovered two new accounts making repetitive tasks: and. Their userpages are not linked on Wikipedia, so I doubt they have been approved. They have not been really disruptive at the moment, but WP:BOT says that unapproved bots should be reported. <font color="#000080">Cena <font color="#1560bd">rium <font color="#000090"> (talk) 17:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Plonker bonker looks like a bot. Kwhit244 looks like a bored person. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 18:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that Plonker bonker defiantly looks like a bot. And with Kwhit244 I still this account is a normal user although he does make the same sort of edits repetitively, but things such as his summary, Major/minor change. Also he isn't editing to fast and seems just to have made edits in one block.
 * Agreed, Plonker has over 100 edits between 17:00 and 18:00 UTC; quite a few, even though it's a tiny change repeated over and over. UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 18:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Concur. Block or warn?? There have been no warning so far Spartaz Humbug! 18:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Also agreed, makes various contributions.  makes always the same edit. <font color="#000080">Cena <font color="#1560bd">rium <font color="#000090"> (talk)  18:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd say warn; their last edit was 10 minutes or so ago, so it appears that they've stopped for the moment. Now would be a good chance to keep them from starting again. UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 18:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think either look like bots. That speed of editing is fairly easy to acheive with tabs, and the occasional lack of an edit summary by Mr. Bonker isn't very bot-like. --AnotherSolipsist (talk) 20:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not a robot! Plonker Bonker (talk) 15:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Add to this that he is making valid edits and you'll have to wonder what it is he's getting warned about. Editing too fast? As long as he is manually reviewing each edit there is no problem. are his edits violating/igonoring some consensus? Policy? Guideline? In that case which one? EconomicsGuy (talk) 20:17, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, he's probably not hurting anything - I even noted that. It doesn't necessarily bother me, but if he were operating a bot, I'd prefer to have it be a properly approved bot to prevent problems for him in the future. On further analysis, though, there are inconsistent edits that point to a human's active involvement. No problem here. UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 20:38, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I also thought like this, the users make no harm. I hesitated to open a thread here, but I still was puzzled by the fact that they immediately started with this kind of editing. I'm unfamiliar with bots, so I preferred to let you know. <font color="#000080">Cena <font color="#1560bd">rium <font color="#000090"> (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Commonsense wins this round. WP:BOT is only about malicious or potentially dangerous bots. Where were you guys when ol' miterbox got WP:guidelined out of existance? "I am not a Bot!" is the best and worst defence for this type of baseless charge. --Lemmey talk 17:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Dramatica restored

 * Link: Deletion review/Log/2008 May 8

I have closed the DRV here with a "recreate" result. I realize that opinions on this have been very strong, and for good reason, since the subject of the website is responsible for a reprehensible culture of harassment and attacks against volunteers who have done nothing wrong, but reading the discussion, it appeared clear that the consensus was against simply leaving the article deleted due to the presence of an independent source. (Personally, I continue to doubt the notability of the website.) The option of AFD is something I have left open, and I suspect someone will be nominating it in a few hours. Sjakkalle (Check!)  07:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * no biggie, but could someone unprotect the talk page please? - Privatemusings (talk) 07:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Have done so. Davewild (talk) 07:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

zOMG - nuked!

 * ... and it's gone again! Deleted by User:Adam Bishop with the cryptic message, "nice try". I was in the middle of declining a pre-emptive prot request on WP:RFPP when it vanished. Ah well - A l is o n  ❤ 07:57, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What the hell? Perhaps its a mistake? (ie wasn't aware of the DRV) Viridae Talk 08:01, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Appears not to be the case. BencherliteTalk 08:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And you'd think that people would realize that it isn't exactly a good idea™ to wheel war with an article of this nature :/ ...<i style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:purple;">¤~Persian Poet Gal</i> <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 08:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but per this DRV, I'm seeing that as an out-of-process delete, but I'm not about to wheel-war over it - A l is o n  ❤ 08:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Its only a wheel war if someone restores at this point...  MBisanz  talk 08:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It would also be common sense prevailing, considering it has *just* gone through a DRV to not force it through another one. Viridae Talk 08:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry, I didn't realize it was on here and DRV and all that. I saw Encyclopedia Dramatica and instinctively reached for the delete button! Adam Bishop (talk) 08:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Figured :) Viridae Talk 08:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright, no harm no foul! Just restore it so we don't have to plummet into further drama.<i style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:purple;">¤~Persian Poet Gal</i> <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  08:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Undeleted as above and Adam Bishop's comment - hope to god I got that right! FT2 (Talk 08:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

... and back again!
FT2 has restored it, referencing Adam's comment above, so I guess that's that! Drahmaz over:) - A l is o n  ❤ 08:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * (e/c) ... Unless I undeleted the wrong version. I followed the "recreate" comment by the closer, plus Adam's comment that the following redeletion was mistaken. If that was mistaken, then someone correct it, of course. FT2 (Talk 08:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see what purpose this could possibly serve. Wouldn't this just create more "drahmaz"? Adam Bishop (talk) 08:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you explain that? The outcome of the DRV was to recreate - hoepfully the drama on the article itself will be kept under control by the watchful eye of many people. Viridae Talk 08:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I did not say my re-deletion was a mistake. I was trying to imply that I do not care one whiffle for whatever process says we can keep a re-created Encyclopedia Dramatica article. If such a process exists I'm sure we can safely ignore it. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Given the strength of involvement in the DRV - i would say anything other han an AfD would be a very bad idea at this point. Viridae Talk 08:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * To be honest I would say an AFD wouldn't accomplish anything either. As rubbish as the website is, there is an expressed consensus to restore the article and all that another AFD would do is generate more heat and no light. Stifle (talk) 09:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If the article is to remain, I would submit that there will be quite a few admins and editors ready to regulate on any shenanigans that crop up. Hell, if it's neutral and well-sourced, it doesn't bother me. UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 14:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it would be a very good idea to have the page protected fully - Acalamari, Nakon, and Maxim can all attest to the fact that semi-protection doesn't stop trolls from ED/slash-b-slash/4chan. Sceptre (talk) 14:11, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Only too true. Acalamari 17:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Links everywhere
Just a note that I mistakenly blocked (and then unblocked) User:I LIVE IN A HAT for adding a link to the ED article to Alternative outlets‎. However, I see they are adding this link to lots of borderline places. I can understand that if there is consensus the site is notable, it should have an article, but I suggest coming down hard on adding links to ED's article in places like List of encyclopedias by branch of knowledge‎, etc. It's not like the floodgates have been opened. --barneca (talk) 14:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Requests for arbitration/MONGO disallows links to ED anywhere on Wikipedia, including on an article about the site itself. You may request clarification, but if he continues, he can be blocked because he knows not to. Sceptre (talk) 14:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * He isn't linking to the actual site; just the article. I don't think anyone sincerely hope no one thinks external links to ED are now OK. --barneca (talk) 14:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec) There is a difference between an external link to ED on the article about ED, an external link anywhere else on Wikipedia, and internal links (wikilinks) to the article. I think barneca is talking about wikilinks to the article, not external links. Sceptre, have you misunderstood things here? Carcharoth (talk) 14:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Adding a reference to and a wikilink for an article unrelated to the topic in question can itself be disruptive. That said, I think the inclusion criteria of that list of encyclopedias could use some shoring up. I don't know that the other links are relevant to the topic, but - if they aren't - then they should be removed. UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 14:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If anything ought to be banned, it's citing that awful MONGO case... by its own admission, ArbCom neither makes policy nor intervenes in content issues, so it has absolutely zilch authority over whether an article on a particular site should include a link to that site as is normal practice. *Dan T.* (talk) 16:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Another victory for the trolls. Splendid. Guy (Help!) 14:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Is that a drive-by comment? Carcharoth (talk) 14:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * How so? It is another victory for trolls. <font color="#CC0000">seicer | <font color="#669900">talk  | <font color="#669900">contribs  14:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I voted to overturn because it just pushes into notability for web content. Just. Still, I can see where you're coming from: I do agree that wearing a Guy Fawkes mask passes WEB, but I don't agree with WEB's leniency itself because just a small spate of notability (q.v. Canada on Strike's plot) can get an article on a somewhat forgettable thing. Sceptre (talk) 14:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If it only just pushes over, it should stay out until it's unambiguous. They need Wikipedia to drive up their traffic and advertising revenue, they nearly went bust once.  Incidentally,  has zero contributions outside of ED / 4chan and banninating him would be a rapid net gain to the encyclopaedia.  We need ED trolls almost as little as we need 9/11 conspiracy kooks. I honestly think this was one of the most stupid things ever done on Wikipedia, after all h work we did to get d of their pointless elf-aggrandising article, they have agitated and agitated until it came back, but all their attacks on Wikipedians who advocated deletion remain, so the world is a bit more shitty thanks to this article. I remain unconvinced that anyone outside the ED community cares about the site at all. Guy (Help!) 15:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * More like a victory for common sense over fear and loathing, in the direction of something closer to NPOV even regarding sites our members don't like. *Dan T.* (talk) 16:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Precisely. Doc remarked on several occasions that our deleting Daniel Brandt would demonstrate our having, as a project and as a community, "grown up" (with which proposition I, of course, it happens, disagreed), and I'd suggest that our permitting recreation here, consistent with the principles that would guide our editing with respect to any similarly situated website, is a sign, albeit for reasons significantly different from those to which Doc refers, that we have matured in some not insignificant way.  Joe 18:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't have a problem with trolls, but this is a trashy article about a trashy subject. I would attempt to make it less trashy but I don't have the faintest idea what it is about.  An encyclopedia article should be reasonably informative to the average reader.  This reads like some in-joke article written for a schoolboy magazine.  There probably should be some article covering 'web culture', but it shouldn't be written in the language of 'web culture'. Translation required.  Peter Damian (talk) 17:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Backlog
There is a backlog at Requested moves, in clearing which any help would be much appreciated. DuncanHill (talk) 08:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism only accounts
I often see accounts blocked as vandalism only accounts, yet when I listed Special:Contributions/RedHeffer which has only made negative edits since September, 2007 at ANI it was removed because it hadn't edited for 4 days. Isn't this completely mad? The editor clearly has no intention of making positive edits so should be blocked. If they really want to contribute positively they can start another account. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 11:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Vandalism in the sense of AIV has to be 100% obvious to everybody. A more complex situation is best handled elsewhere like on WP:ANI -- Agathoclea (talk) 12:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * LOL Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 13:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * A couple of comments:
 * I can't speak for everyone, but if it's an account and not an IP, I don't care about the "must be vandalizing right now" requirement; it's the same person, they've seen the warnings.
 * If it's blatantly someone out to damage the encyclopedia, I don't worry too terribly much about warnings either; but in the absense of clear, irrefutable evidence, I usually assume plenty of good faith that it might just be someone goofing around, who might, just might, be turned from the Dark Side, so I'll give 1 to 4 warnings clarify: I mean, between 1 and 4 warnings, depending on the severity, not that I always use the level-1 thru level-4 sequence. I don't. RedHeffer seems to me to be someone goofing around, and until your level-4im warning a few days ago (4 days after their last edit), they had never been warned, or welcomed, or anything.  They haven't vandalized since you gave that warning.
 * I don't think the account should be blocked now. If vandalism resumes, whether you catch it "active" or not, an indef "vandal only account" block is warranted.
 * --barneca (talk) 13:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That seems pretty nonsensical to me. This person has repeatedly added false information to articles using possibly real names of people they dislike, some which stayed there for days. If they decide to contribute positively they can start another account. By tolerating this you just allow people to game the system and make a lot of unnecessary work for WP users in reverting vandalism. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 13:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The issue is twofold. AIV deals with obvious and warned vandalism in progress - We also warn editors before they do get blocked - which now it has been done can serve as a precedent for a future block. Gaming the system? No as people like yourself will be quick to point out that a User X is following a particular pattern of blocked/banned User Y. In fact many do get blocked without warning if their vandalism gives the impression of someone familiar with Wikipedia (it does not matter whose sock they are - they are an abusive sock). In this case it would not be a case of reporting to AN/I like you did as reporting "vandalism" will get the static response "Go to AIV". You would need to report the situation why a block outside the usual parameters of AIV is warranted. As a matter of fact more often that not I succeeded in getting blocks on complex reports on AIV before I was admined myself by being verbose enough in the report "xyz was rcently warned as user zxy (and blocked) continuing same pattern". Content misinformation has to be very obvious though and it is best to get one of two admins to familiarize with the case at hand and notifying them of future incarnations. In this particular case we are no way near that scenario and I do recommend to let things be after your warning until there is further reason to act. Agathoclea (talk) 13:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Seems like we will have to monitor this account more closely and try and get the warnings on the day and preferably after each edit, as per the numerous edits 09/05/2008, before referral to Administrator intervention against vandalism--Rockybiggs (talk) 14:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No, if this user returns in June, (presumably) reads the warning, and then makes another vandalism edit, and then we stumble across it in July, I would have no problem blocking the account as vandalism-only. The emphasis on "currently active" is mostly for IP addresses, which are often shared and dynamic.  What we're trying to say is, for run-of-the-mill vandalism, which this is, we generally don't block without warning.  And I must say, implying that admins who work at AIV are "allow[ing] people to game the system and make a lot of unnecessary work for WP users in reverting vandalism" is a little galling. --barneca (talk) 15:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That would all be fine if people placed warnings on people's pages when they revert but very often they don't therefore the system doesn't work properly and we are left dealing with a lot more vandalism that could easily be avoided. We should now look at the situation, and say this person knows very well that they are vandalising yet people have forgotten to place warning templates on their page but it is clear this person is not editing in good faith so we shouldn't give them further license to muck us about. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 15:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Possible IP trolling at help desk
This thread Help_desk strikes me as being inspired by recent less-than-honest reportage in WND and other far-right muck sites. Would some admins care to take a look? DuncanHill (talk) 15:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Editing on page Samrat Hem Chandra Vikramaditya or HEMU
While I was putting citations on above mentioned page, someone edited half the page. I am finding it difficult to re-frame it. Please help.

[email removed] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.198.130.63 (talk) 16:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

For advice: Putative anti-wikipedia-"porn" campaign probable
Admins may wish to be advised that the one Matt Barber, policy director for cultural issues of the Concerned Women for America, a Biblically principled organization, is currently [ http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=63590 fulminating in the press] at sexually explicit images on Wikipedia, and his press release has turned up on the Christian Newswire as "Wikipedia Peddles Porn to Kids".

You may want to anticipate some incoming flack from this - we've had a first inquiry on the reference desk this evening. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * So, somebody nobody has ever heard of is attempting to use Wikipedia to generate free press for themselves then? Resolute 23:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the statement "Children will be exposed to this destructive material if you fail to protect them." sums it up pretty well. Of course, so does Raul's comment here. - <font color="#0000cd">auburn <font color="#EF6521">pilot  talk  23:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * zOMG think of the children if we don't BAN THIS EVIL FILTH it's a VICTORY FOR THE TERRORISTS . We survived Daniel B & his chums, I assume we'll survive this.<font face="Trebuchet MS"> — <font color="#E45E05">iride <font color="#C1118C">scent  23:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I personally find it odd a man is in charge of making policy for a religious woman's group. Hypocrisy much? -<font color="32CD32">Jéské  <font color="4682B4">(v^_^v E pluribus unum) 23:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hypocrisy and religion? Those have never crossed paths before, have they?  Regardless, if mommy and daddy are going to use religion as an excuse to hide natural functions of humanity from their kids, better Wikipedia teaches them than most anything a google search would turn up, imo. Resolute 23:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * A women's organisation founded by Christians as part of the opposition to the Equal Rights Amendment. Quite.<font face="Trebuchet MS"> — <font color="#E45E05">iride <font color="#C1118C">scent  23:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not certian wikipedia articles stick to natural functions.Geni 23:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Neither does google, heh. Resolute 23:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmmp wikipedia.com again.Geni 23:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Scary, dont these people have jobs? Realist 2 ( 'Come Speak To Me' ) 23:38, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's minds of their own they lack, not jobs. DuncanHill (talk) 09:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Suggest we prepare a statement with our site's disclaimer, a selection of family-friendly mirror sites, and some suggestions about parental control software. Durova Charge! 23:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Is there any open source parental control software?Geni 23:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * FWIW, when even WR thinks they're a pack of crackpots, I think we're probably safe (note to the badsites police - that link is permitted as it it's directly relevant to the topic and not to ED) <font face="Trebuchet MS"> — <font color="#E45E05">iride <font color="#C1118C">scent  23:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure that's the Foundation's job, not the community's. As for wikipedia.com... sigh .   Keegan talk 05:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Could someone show me where the "hundreds, if not thousands, of hardcore pornographic images and online sex videos" are available here or on Wikicommons for, ur, my research into this terrible obsenity? Seriously, haven't responses centred around WP:NOT been the standard response to these kind of campaigners in the past? Nick Dowling (talk) 23:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * zee only video would be Image:Blonde_stag_film.ogg. Only hardcore photos (we have a lot of softcore tends to pick a lot of copyvios mind) would be commons:Category:Pornographic film.Geni 00:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There are some fairly dubious photos here - anyone want to explain exactly how NudeSamStripper.jpg, Model in bondage.jpg or my all-time favourite ridiculous image (and Jimbo lookalike) Suspension-bb-lorelei-9016-jonwoods.jpg are encyclopaedic? (Warning; all three are NSFW!)<font face="Trebuchet MS"> — <font color="#E45E05">iride <font color="#C1118C">scent  00:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No idea about the first image, but the second & third are used to illustrate the article Hogtie bondage as any fule kno . --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Commons isn't concerned with 'encyclopaedic value', it is a repository of free media. -- <font face="verdana" color="hotpink">Naerii 04:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Not specifically "encyclopedic value", per se, but images on Commons do have to be potentially useful to current or future Wikimedia projects. Powers T 13:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yikes!!, i mean, its all in artistic taste obviously. -- Realist 2 ( 'Come Speak To Me' ) 00:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I thought I was really conservative. Not that much, apparently. I don't think this will turn out to be anything big. I still think, however, that a parental control option would be good.  bibliomaniac 1 5  Do I have your trust? 23:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, i think it falls under the usual CENSORED argument, ive fallen victim to that thing a number of times, yet i respect it. Wikipedia is not censored, we shouldnt give in to the political/religious ideology of ANY group. It will be bad for the community, a lot of people are already tired of this sort of pushing. Realist 2 ( 'Come Speak To Me' ) 00:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * But not one wikipedia will support. Of course if some third party were to develop one we could hardly object.Geni 00:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * They also say "With great power comes great responsibility." Good thing to keep in mind in case you get bitten by a radioactive spider. *Dan T.* (talk) 00:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I think a boilerplate message as outlined by Durova would be quite handy, both in this instance, and in the future, and to me personally. I know I, for one, would be interested in the location of family-friendly mirrors (if any exist) that I could feel comfortable sending my kids to. I seem to recall hearing about a CD version for school, I wonder if there's also an online version. No need to make fun of people who want to take advantage of the best online encyclopedia in the world, but don't want to expose themselves, or their kids, to images or subject matter they find objectionable. Delicately pointing out that they are responsible for what their kids see on line, not us, but giving them other options would be quite magnanimous of us, I think. --barneca (talk) 00:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Online version of the Wikipedia for Schools CD at ]. DuncanHill (talk) 09:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Barneca, I think you have a valid question - but I wonder why parental controls for pages aren't being used? After all, most of our images that are objectionable are on the body part and pornography articles.  Setting parental controls to filter for certain key words would take care of many of these articles.  --<font color="#0000C0">David <font color="#0000C0">Shankbone  00:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * So a teenage boy couldn't read about testicles, but could read about testicular cancer? A teenage girl couldn't read about breasts, but would be able to read about breast cancer?   Dan Beale-Cocks  09:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Could we also have something for article that link to hate sites aswell then? There are a number of articles that provide URL's to some very hateful places. Do we need something for that aswell? I find thinks like that more worrying than a few naked bodies. Realist 2 ( 'Come Speak To Me' ) 00:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

& if no family-friendly mirror sites exist, we should certainly encourage CWA or anyone else interested to create one. If someone wanted to create a 99% mirror that specifically left out the 1% or so sexual content, they could presumably filterg mainly on the basis of removing all articles that are in certain categories, then do some blacklisting and whitelisting to deal with the outliers. I think that would be a great project. I'm actually surprised that no large city school system (for example) has done this. Of course, knowing CWA, they have a lot of other objections Wikipedia & are just using this as a convenient stick to beat us with. But objecting to us containing reasonably neutral articles on socialism and the like wouldn't make as big a splash in the press. - Jmabel | Talk 00:38, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * In case no one's linked to this here yet: Village pump (miscellaneous). <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 00:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * *Ahem* *Cough* <font color="#CC0000">seicer | <font color="#669900">talk  | <font color="#669900">contribs  01:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Following up on the above, I'm planning a blog post about family-friendly options. Some outreach and communication could help here.  Really, a lot of the public doesn't fully understand how wikis operate and North American social conservatives are accustomed to asking for child-appropriate content at the provider level on a local or regional basis.  We can't fulfill this type of request in the way they expect.  Any unprotected page could get vandalized at any time, so it's possible that someone's eight-year-old could download an article about a Disney movie two seconds after someone replaced the content with obscenities.  If we tried to prevent that from ever happening we'd stop being a wiki.  What we can do is educate them about their other options.  I welcome input from other Wikipedians about preparing this post and making it useful.  Durova Charge! 07:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I think we need to


 * After communication with Bastique, I have a list of images that one of the emails to OTRS has got. I, along with him and others, are going to sort thru the images and see what should stay and what should go. As for their location, many of the ones pointed out to OTRS exist on the Commons. Plus, porn to them is probably a lot broader definition than what we think. I found many pieces of historical art in the list of images to look at. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 07:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You're aware that I'm an admin on Commons? Durova Charge! 07:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No, but I do now. I am also a Commons admin, so I can help you. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Won't fly to well. We need something like a firefox plugin that can blacklist certian pages. I'm sure there would be wikipedians who would help in provideing blacklists.Geni 16:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

As an interesting aside, I'd like to point out that when I checked earlier today, we were getting anywhere between 1 and 5 emails per hour to OTRS about this. That's a significant amount (though not nearly what the height of the muhammad controversies were). ⇒ <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT Jester    Son of the Defender  07:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm actually in favor of such a campaign. I find it disgusting that there are Wikipedia users who will do things like crap on plates and then insist such images be used in articles. We don't need explicit stuff when a scholarly diagram or something similar can do the job just as well. Jtrainor (talk) 08:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, not all images in such articles can be done up in such a manner without confusing the picture. Any diagram of smegma, for example, is going to end up looking "moldy" and thus be confusing.  And, indeed, there's been some concern about the image on the page currently (as well as some glacier-mo edit-warring over it), but unless we have a useful diagram (read: one that doesn't make the subject look like mildew, cum (pardons), or bread mold) then we can't remove the picture quite yet. -<font color="32CD32">Jéské  <font color="4682B4">(v^_^v E pluribus unum) 08:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * While I do not see how poop on a plate would be worthwhile (I do not see any value in the stripper picture linked to above, either), I think that images that some people find objectionable have a place on Wikipedia. Most of the potentially objectionable images I have seen relate to medical topics, and you find graphic images all of the time in certain high-quality medical publications. Dermatology books and journals have some particularly delightful ones. ;-) In regards to diagrams/drawings, unfortunately, it can be hard to find one that can be used on Wikipedia legally. Also, as Jéské Couriano mentioned, it can be difficult for Wikipedians to create their own.
 * It's not poop on a plate, it's in a toilet, for pete's sake. Powers T 13:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we should have a drawing request page for articles for which a photo or drawing cannot be found. We already have photo requests, and this would allow those with the skill to create drawings know what topics need them. -- Kjkolb (talk) 10:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If anyone complains just redirect their user page to Category:Bad images Jackaranga (talk) 12:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The way to deal with issues like this is to make absolutely sure that when we include content that is of an explicit nature, it is clearly evident to the impartial observer that it has self-evident merit in illustrating the subject. The image at fluffer seems to me to fail that, as do many other images originating in the world of "teh pr0n". We should aspire to a quality of image that would not be out of place in an anatomical textbook.  Such images tend not to be particularly titillating.  Guy (Help!) 07:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Allegations of Kiddie Porn?

 * At least one of the OTRS messages concerns children in pornographic images (full frontal, prepubescent, sexually provocative)which are posted here. Maybe we should reconsider our demand that anything goes. After all, if a child posts personal information on his talk page we delete and oversight it - but if they are nude it's acceptable? Doesn't make sense. -JodyBtalk 11:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Kiddie Porn" images is a favourite meme of pro-censorship interests. Are the pictures intended as sexually provocative? If a picture of a naked child in a "natural pose" excites sexual desire in someone then it is the problem of that viewer, not the host of the picture, and the potential of the reaction of a small minority should not disallow the use of an image in an appropriate context. So, are examples of images of naked children acceptable? Within context, yes, as this is an encyclopedia that uses various media to illustrate subjects. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I can only think of two images of naked children - one is a child (and her father) in the naked bike ride article and the other is an album cover. Neither is porn. Viridae Talk 12:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "Sexually provocative" is the key word (well, words). If we have any sexually provocative photos of nude children, that's undoubtedly against our policies and they should be deleted, rather than defended with the usual "no censorship here" rhetoric. But I doubt such images actually exist here currently -- people tend to just see nudity and recoil in terror. I know beans and all, but specific links to the photos people consider to be "sexually provocative" are in order in this case, if we are to discuss this productively. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 12:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I suspect it refers to the Scorpion's album cover, which the "World Net Daily" (whatever that is) is currently trying to publicise as much as it possibly can, see [ http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=63722 ]  DuncanHill (talk) 12:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Virgin Killer - That's an interesting problem. It's provocative, but at the same time it's not merely a photo taken for that purpose, but a historical (artistic?) album cover from the '70s. This could really go either way. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 12:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Its also not the only one. Srsly, and I speak this as a born-again Christian myself, these people are only out for self-aggrandizement and aren't really making these statements to "make the world better".  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  12:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There's also the famous re-imagining of Dejeuner sur l'herbe in the Bow wow wow article. -- Relata refero (disp.) 14:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, yes, those news sources have questionable intentions, but that doesn't mean we can't re-examine the issue for our own purposes. That first article does feature a provocative photo of a naked 10 year-old, whether or not some tabloid-esque news magazine is who's responsible for informing us of it. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 12:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Do we have to use the girl Virgin Killer picture? Since there is an alternate and the girl album cover is not the subject of the article or of any critical analysis...I'll be bold. <font color="FF0066">Seraphim♥ Whipp  13:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Btw, when I said critical analysis, I meant that what was there already wasn't really enough to make a strong argument to keep the image. <font color="FF0066">Seraphim♥ Whipp  13:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Why give in to a few hate-mongers on a fringe website? DuncanHill (talk) 13:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I would have done it anyway if I had known before. It was brought to my attention from this discussion. <font color="FF0066">Seraphim♥ Whipp  13:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I oppose what you did. The album cover was controversial and having it in the article does help greatly with illustrating the controversy.-Wafulz (talk) 13:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a wiki. Feel free to revert. <font color="FF0066">Seraphim♥ Whipp  13:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with Wafulz that the image does help the article. The only thing I'm not sure about is if the image is in line with our policies -- but if it is, then it should probably stay, as the replacement image isn't just as good. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 13:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

OMG CHILD PORN. WND is horribly sensationalist and they’ll put a spin on anything to rid the world of "liberal" values. I suggest we carry on with business as usual.-Wafulz (talk) 13:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * An earlier removal of the image was reverted as vandalism, I think content issues such as this should be discussed on the article talk-page. DuncanHill (talk) 13:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have already left a message on the talk page. <font color="FF0066">Seraphim♥ Whipp  13:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Yes, that is the image I was referring to. It was simply a gratuitous image that was even dropped by the record company. I appreciate Seraphim's boldness. As one who has professionally with victims of child pornography I will not give space to those who seek to excuse it. As a parent of three young boys the image was horribly offensive. This is not merely a naked picture, but a deliberately provocative pic of a child. We should at least have some small standard of decency here. -JodyBtalk 14:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's... a mass-market heavy metal album cover, of which no doubt tens of thousands (if not more) were produced. Everyone who owns this Scorpions album is a child pornographer now? Come on. World Net Daily is a right-wing Christian fundamentalist "news" (used very loosely) outlet pushing an extremist, anti-American censorship agenda. We should not be gratuitously publishing porn, because we're an encyclopedia, not a porn shop. But if the worst that WND can throw at us is "omg noes an ALBUM COVER," I'd say there's really not much to be concerned about. FCYTravis (talk) 17:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This might be the appropriate point to mention that Balance was one of the biggest selling albums of the 1990s - is every record store on the planet distributing kiddy porn, too?<font face="Trebuchet MS"> — <font color="#E45E05">iride <font color="#C1118C">scent  17:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, indeed these emails are fun to deal with. But we are not censored, and in this case in particular the image does help the article (IMO; note, it's been removed). The album isn't porn, and I'd be more worried about people who think it is than the image itself. – <font color="Indigo">Mike .<font color="Indigo">lifeguard  &#124; <font color="Indigo">@en.wb 15:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * perhaps the positions should be reversed, and the revised cover put at the top, changing the labels appropriately. DGG (talk) 15:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with both Mike.lifeguard and DGG on this. DuncanHill (talk) 15:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * As was suggested, this is being discussed at the article's talk page. Come take part in the discussion there :). <font color="FF0066">Seraphim♥ Whipp  15:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I do recall a situation a couple of months ago where a minor was taking photos of his bits and uploading them here to articles such as "Puberty" and "Penis", and we dealt with it by speedying the photos and warning him. I'm not sure what came of it, but it seemed a thoroughly sensible approach. Orderinchaos 16:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's a pretty obvious "delete, no questions asked" issue. FCYTravis (talk) 17:14, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, World Net Daily is certainly right-wing, but it's not particularly Christian, unless "Christian" is just taken as code for "Moslems not welcome." This bit of moral panic is sheer opportunism. - Jmabel | Talk 19:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Exactly. It's interesting that they hired Matt Sanchez, former gay porn star as one of their correspondents, isn't it?  --<font color="#0000C0">David <font color="#0000C0">Shankbone  20:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The image is up for ifd in today's log anyway. Thanks, SqueakBox 20:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That IfD should be closed extremely quickly as it starting to garner unwanted attention. <span style="font-family:Papyrus, sans-serif; color:#775ca8;">Rgoodermote  18:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Er, have these people taken a good, long look at the genre of medieval paintings? An awful lot of them show the Virgin Mary with the naked infant of Christ. So when will they get around to nominating for deletion all of that smut on Commons under Category:Circumcision of Christ? -- llywrch (talk) 21:24, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

On a related topic...
Might I point some admins besides me to Talk:Smegma? I've practically been the only one to rebut the calls of IPs for censorship on that page, and other IPs are being emboldened by this and deliberately removing or redlinking the image on the article, seeing it as consensus. I need to walk away from it at this point; if I continue there I might blow a gasket. -<font color="32CD32">Jéské <font color="4682B4">(v^_^v E pluribus unum) 08:49, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Fully protected for 1 week. Rudget   (Help?) 11:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The article, yes, but not the talk page, which is where I'm asking for assistance. -<font color="32CD32">Jéské <font color="4682B4">(v^_^v E pluribus unum) 18:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

A solution
I knew this would come up someday. In fact I'm surprised it took this long. I can sit here editing from behind an educational filter, look at Vagina, and see some of the sort of images such software was intended to block. All because it only reads the domain name.

And only Geni, in the above discussion, seems to have hit on what is to me the obvious way to solve it, that could make everybody happy. We (wisely) rejected TOBY a long time ago. But that doesn't mean the problem went away.

MediaWiki is open-source. I'm not a programmer, but it seems to me that would make it very easy to write a similarly client-side open-source free filtering program that could block images some people and institutions do not want displaying on their computers. Not that we have to develop and make it available ourselves, but certainly someone could. I'm sure there are enough programmers out there, and enough money in the constituencies CWA claims to speak for, that it could be created independently of any effort on our part.

We don't censor ourselves, but we can't stop other people from doing it as our experience with China demonstrates. And I wouldn't want to, even if I find the example I gave a regrettable one. For our right to run this project the way we want to and not censor it for the protection of minors is someone else's right to censor what goes on a computer they own and administer.

Such software might also help us ... a cooperative LAN administrator could issue client-side blocks to the local accounts of vandals, sparing us the auto and unblock requests from users at large shared IPs and overall reducing the amount of blocks we have to administer. Or, a school could perhaps protect its own article from its own vandalizing students, so we don't have to.

Any thoughts on this? I've thought about this for a while and mentioned it at a few meetups, but this is the first time I've posted anything about it. Daniel Case (talk) 15:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * While I agree with what you're proposing, I sincerely doubt that it will work to alleve the fears of people like CWA. You're offering a solution that would handle the pictures, but their principal problem is not about the pictures, but that they'll read the articles & might start thinking for themselves. -- llywrch (talk) 21:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Why do you think conservatives created Conservapedia in the first place? :-) Daniel Case (talk) 17:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Blocking articles would also be posible. Some of the hostility towards web filtering software is due to it's secretive nature. In theory a far more open version should appeal to the free software community but in the end there isn't much we can do to make it happen.Geni 12:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Is it worth it?
I have serious doubts that most pornography-related images are even needed. I mean, take a look at Sex industry. What purpose does the image in the adult films section of that article fulfill? Is it illustrative? Educational? Does it demonstrate something that would not be as easily grasped or understood if the image was not there? (I also have problems with a gay pornography image when straight porn is by far the best-known and most commonly depicted form of porn, but that's a different discussion) If we're putting pornographic images in articles just to fill up blank space on the sides, or for aesthetic reasons, or (worst of all) to stick it to our critics, we should reconsider it from an editorial perspective. In short, does having an image of two guys having sex really improve the encyclopedia? --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 19:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "I also have problems with a gay pornography image when straight porn is by far the best-known and most commonly depicted form of porn, but that's a different discussion" indeed it is a different discussion - so why raise it here? And why use "an image of two guys having sex" as your example? You have a problem with pornography-related images - OK, discuss it and see where that goes. Don't single out one form of sexuality for special treatment unless you can demonstrate really good reasons for doing so. DuncanHill (talk) 19:38, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Because that was the first link I clicked on from this whole grandiose discussion? I wasn't singling out any form of sexuality. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 20:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I really fail to understand how a photograph of the making of an adult film, complete with filming crew, is in any way questionable when attached to a section about adult film. I seriously doubt the same kind of skeptical questioning would arise if there was a photo of an assembly line next to a section about the automotive manufacturing industry. Vassyana (talk) 19:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Whatever one thinks about the debate overall, I think it is highly dubious to claim that there is no difference between a picture depicting a sexual act and one depicting a car assembly line. This does not mean the former should not be included, but the contention that there is no difference between them is not tenable.  Sam Korn (smoddy) 20:00, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Car manufacturing and hardcore pornography are two different things. Good thing too, or else we'd have even more problems with gas prices. But we're digressing from my point: what purpose does that image serve? What educational value does it provide? --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 20:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The fluffing picture shows a fluffer, complete with latex gloves (sensible chap). Try substitution: would you object to a picture of a welder welding on a welding article? Or a car fitter fitting on a car fitting article? --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Or let's not try substitution, since all we're getting are examples that have nothing to do with the topic at hand and are just red herrings. Was I talking about the fluffer article? No. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 20:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I's an article about the sex industry. It shews people who work in that industry doing their jobs. DuncanHill (talk) 21:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, sorry, I had fluffing on the mind. Okay, we'll do this on your terms: What purpose does the image in the adult films section of that article fulfill?: Per Duncan, above. Is it illustrative?: Yes. It illustrates a gropup of people in one aspect of the sex industry. Educational?: Yes. It reminds us that there are others in the studio besides the naked guys on the bed. Does it demonstrate something that would not be as easily grasped or understood if the image was not there?: At a glance, yes. Were there enough well written text, perhaps not - though given that a picture =1,000 words, I do not find your last test very compelling. In short, whether by substitution or whether by point by point answers, your doubts are at least being met; whether to your satisfaction is entirely your business. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that there is a good argument to be made that showing a gay porn image in an article on adult film might be seen as, to choose three words at random, violating undue weight. That said, there's a balance to be struck between avoiding illustrations simply because some people might be offended by them, and adding dirty pictures as fast as we can upload them, simply because WP:NOT. S HEFFIELD S TEEL TALK 21:52, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Is the image released under an editable licence? Why don't people just crop the shagging people out of it (whatever their sex) and leave the film crew?  Dan Beale-Cocks  15:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Or people who don't want to know what goes on in the sex industry could simply not click on sex industry. DuncanHill (talk) 15:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Of the two pictures in that article, the picture discussed was in the top screen--a non-objectionable picture was further down. I want to maintain non-censorship as strongly as the law permits. The way to do that is to insist on having the material that is needed, but using some degree of discretion in how to show it. This could even be done without rearranging, simply by expanding the article, (which it very much needs in any case) so the picture does not show up on the initial screen. Then nobody would see it who a/ did not come to this article specifically, as DH says just above,  and b/ did not actually continue reading it. Any reasonable person who actually scrolls to see all the content on an article such as this knows what to expect. As Samuel Johnson said in 1755  to two young ladies who congratulated him for omitting naughty words from his dictionary  "What! my dears! then you have been looking for them?"  DGG (talk) 13:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Andrew Schlafly
Since Doc glasgow, who closed Articles for deletion/Andrew Schlafly (2nd nomination) as delete, has apparently retired, I'd like to forward this question to other admins. It seems that there is sufficient reliable news coverage to have an article on Schlafly, beyond that which should (and mostly is already) included in Conservapedia. One examples of a source is here (NY Times), more can be found via Google News Archives here. Is it ok to create that article from scratch? Not asking for undeletion, just for your estimate of whether or not it would endure. dorftrottel (talk) 11:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Since most of the information would be pieced together from coverage of larger topics, I'd say it's pretty borderline-notable at best. Because he's involved in controversial topics, we should err on the side of our living persons policy and keep the information on him within parent articles like Conservapedia, Phyllis Schlafly, and others.-Wafulz (talk) 14:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thanks and nevermind then. (logged out Dorftrottel) 78.34.130.176 (talk) 18:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * To paraphrase the above, who needs the hassle? Schlafly is a minor, minor figure. Guy (Help!) 11:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Question
I've noticed a relatively new account that I suspect may be operated by a particular indef-blocked user. Are such accounts usually tolerated unless they do something blockable themselves (so far this one has only some borderline incivility and disruption to its credit, but nothing rising to the level of a potential block) or is this something I should be reporting to SSP or RFCU? Deor (talk) 02:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that such accounts would constitute evasion of the original block, and as such are not permitted. Let me know if I can help. Cheers. --Ckatz <sup style="color:green;">chat <sub style="color:red;">spy  04:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. If it's likely evading a block, you have good evidence indicating who it likely is, and the new account does have some incivility/disruption, I would suggest you request a checkuser as such behavior is generally unacceptable. Best, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 04:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Two things to be clear about for this to make sense: there are users, and there are accounts. Users operate accounts.
 * If an account is blocked, it is to prevent further disruption. Creating a new account to continue edit patterns of disruption is sockpuppettry on the part of the user, and that account is blockable to prevent further abuse.
 * If an account is blocked and the user goes a makes a new account an edits constructively, that is acceptable. This often happens in the case of inappropriate usernames, early vandalism, etc.
 * A ban is prohibiting the user from operating accounts. Those accounts can be blocked on sight because the user is unwelcome, no matter the account name.
 * So it depends on the situation.  Keegan talk 06:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the responses. I'm going to hold off on SSPing this guy until I see whether he's going to ramp up the disruption a bit more. Deor (talk) 23:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Have a nice night!  Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 00:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Desione
Is making several uphelpful edits on wikipedia, in particular on Invasion of Goa, which he decided to change without any concencous and totally off his own back the actual name of the page to `Liberation of Goa` as with edit. Can you please help and administer this user. Please also see the concencous agreement for no change which was ignored by Desione --Rockybiggs (talk) 09:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I just fixed a double redirect here. This needs some more attention I can't give at the moment as the issue involves cut&paste moves. Agathoclea (talk) 09:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I made the necessary moves, deletions, and undeletions. El_C 10:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I just want to clarify: 1) user Rockybiggs has been following me around for months and will continue to do so in future. For him this is a personal battle. 2) There is no consensus on the name "Invasion of Goa". The original name of the article was "Liberation of Goa" and the name was changed to "Invasion of Goa" without any discussion and consensus when no one was watching. I am simply restoring move to original name. 3) I have shown evidence for the fact that the most common english name for this article is "Liberation of Gao" (see WP:COMMONNAME). Thanks Desione (talk) 18:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Barbara Bauer
Due to the newfound newsworthiness of this subject (see, e.g.    etc), I'd like to create a new page about her. However the page is currently protected from creation with the comment 'Per WP:ANI'. I can't find any discussion about protecting this page, though; the only reference to Barbara Bauer is in this discussion, which doesn't concern Bauer at all.

Any chance of unprotecting the page? JulesH (talk) 10:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Please don't. The links (from May 2008, not from March/April 2007) are here and here. A WP:OFFICE action was taken to remove the planned Signpost story about this lawsuit. See here. I am presuming that this extends to the article itself. See the deletion log of Bauer v. Glatzer: "OFFICE-requested deletion; concerns should be addressed to Mike Godwin via e-mail." I presume something similar should be placed in the deletion log for Barbara Bauer, but possibly not. Maybe someone should contact Mike Godwin to get confirmation that Barbara Bauer should not be recreated either? I'm not even sure we should be having this discussion! But someone has to say "no", otherwise someone else might unwittingly unprotect and allow recreation. Please do just e-mail Mike Godwin and do not discuss here (or wait for him to say something here). Carcharoth (talk) 10:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Found it. See the diff from Mike Godwin here. That clinches it. I'm marking this as resolved. No action can or should be taken here, except possibly updating the article deletion log in light of recent events. Carcharoth (talk) 10:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I've appended that diff to the Protection Log, so that it comes up when an attempt is made to recreate the article. Given that diff, I'm hesitant to restore the article, even briefly enough to append that notation, but the protection log skirts that issue. I also protected Barbara bauer, lower-case "bauer", as a possible alternative article title, citing the same diff. UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 14:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Page creation is protected case insensitive - so the article is now double protected. Will need to keep this in mind in case of a future unprotection. Agathoclea (talk) 14:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Whoops, you're right - this is why I don't do that many protections. Is it worthwhile to unprotect the lower-case article, or would that also unprotect the uppercase article? Or, given that the article is unlikely to be properly recreated in the near future (as per Mike Godwin), is double-secret uber-stealth protection acceptable? UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 14:32, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I will do some testing. But at the moment I have the feeling either the case insensitivity has changed or it does take a while for the servers to catch up with it. See User:Agathoclea/ProtectionTest. Will check again tomorrow and then unprotect one to see how the second protect affects it. Agathoclea (talk) 14:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Awesome, thanks. UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 14:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I had it wrong. Only the leading char is case insensitive: . -- Agathoclea (talk) 22:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:VPT to the rescue. Thanks again for checking on that. UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 13:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Some personal attacks
So perhaps I'm just growing soft, but I figured I should bring this here. I deleted an attack page that created, and another had been deleted before that. I warned him that if he continued creating attack pages he would be blocked from editing. He then proceeded to entertainingly curse me out on my talk page, and hasn't edited since. He probably could be blocked, because he has continued personal attacks, but a) I didn't want to be the one to do it, because he's attacked me, and it could be a conflict of interest and b) He hasn't edited since, so I'm tempted to just ignore it if/until he continues. But I may be going soft, because it does seem pretty much like a vandlaism only account, but yet, I figured I'd bring it here to have another admin take a look. Thanks, -- Nataly a 18:01, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've blocked them. You warned them for the creation of the page, but I would say that kind of attack warranted a block regardless. J Milburn (talk) 18:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. -- Nataly a 18:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)