Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive238

Extra Inter language links
Please look at Inter language links part of Harrier Jump Jet article. Is it true?Gire 3pich2005 (talk) 16:16, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes as many other wikis have several articles on the Harrier and it's different versions all linking to this one article here. NtheP (talk) 16:26, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Crazy server lag
Up to 1,559 seconds. Who broke it? - Burpelson AFB ✈ 17:07, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * See WP:Village pump (technical). Dougweller (talk) 17:41, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Leontopodium alpinum


Unprotection: This page does NOT need protection. zzuuzz was asked to remove protection and refused to help. Unlike many of the editors involved, I do not have problem with IP editors or assume they are the bad guys. I want them to be able to contact me. This protection was instigated by a small number of overzealous editors continuously reverting an IP and agitating it in the process. The original edit was not even a personal attack as they put, although it was a bit harsh. Editors causing this problem need to read WP:DENY. Leontopodium alpinum (talk) 17:55, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * To elaborate on the comment recently on my talk page, as with all my actions any admin is welcome to adjust the protection as they see fit. If you've seen the proxy-hopping trolls, both(?) ANI threads, and the edit frequencies then you're not missing much. My reasons for protection remain unchanged, so I won't be doing it myself. -- zzuuzz (talk) 18:07, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Leon should do what I do and what the rules recommend: create a separate, non-protected pseudo talk page where IP's can "contact him", as he puts it. The "contacting" in this case is nothing more than a personal attack on another editor, and is not appropriate for Leon's talk page. And Leon's insistence keeping the attack there raises suspicions about his own alleged "good faith". The WP:DENY stuff is wrong-headed. You don't "deny" trolls by leaving their garbage untouched - you deny them by preventing them from posting. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:17, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I would say that the suspicions arise more from you wikistalking my edits and canvassing your pal Dave1185. You caused this whole problem by reverting edits multiple times that are really not personal attacks, and that's true no matter how many time you claim otherwise. Please refrain from adding your opinion unnecessarily, as you are not an admin. Leontopodium alpinum (talk) 14:59, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I have asked Dave to comment here. If he doesn't care, I don't care. If he does care, then your page should remain protected, so as to "deny" the trolls as you say. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:25, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This is a nice idea from you, but unfortunately for you or Dave1185 to "care" or not or what you think about what should happen to my talk page are not necessary or relevant. Please do refrain from your own agitation. Thanks for stopping by. Leontopodium alpinum (talk) 02:13, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You are under the mistaken impression that you "own" your talk page. You don't. If you allow incivility against others to remain on your page, you are approving of that incivility. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:57, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You are under the mistaken impression that your opinion is necessary or appropriate to add to this discussion. Leontopodium alpinum (talk) 05:30, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * As this is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit everyone's opinion is appropriate and even necessary any/everywhere. Can someone sort out these facts for me. Based on this edit history ;
 * La has minimal edits to article space - four although I may have miscounted.
 * La went around bestowing barnstars to those who complained about Dave1185's alleged incivility. So, per AGF they disapprove of such "personal attacks" occurring on WikiP. YET
 * They are perfectly happy for "personal attacks" against Dave1185 to be added to - and remain - on their talk page. The term "tag and bag" used for socks who have already betrayed the communities trust is far less offensive then the post about Dave1185 added by various IPs (and that alone should raise red flags of various sizes and vivid colors) to La's talk page.
 * As Bugs correctly state if La is here as someone who want to edit constructively then they can "create a separate, non-protected pseudo talk page where IP's can "contact him"" other wise can we please apply WP:NOTTHERAPY - among several others - and end this drama. MarnetteD | Talk 05:57, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You warp facts to fit the agenda of you and your friends. This has nothing to do for the actual comment left on my talk page, although I strongly disparage your view that it was a personal attack. If you think this is personal attack the you skin is far, far to thin for Wikipedia. It is clearly not a personal attack. Dave 1185 and his pals are simply trying to keep the Wiki clean of criticism of his actions.
 * The number of edits I have made does not matter: WP:DONTBITE. Of course I thank people that took the reasonable position in a long argument. Oh, and Dave1185 did the same thing.
 * You are grossly misstate what I am asking. I am not interested at all with this request to anything with the original edit on my page. I never mentioned it here. Good attempt, but again you do not tell the truth about this request. I am only demanding that my own talk page be unprotected.
 * You do not have a neutral opinion in this matter and should recuse yourself from the discussion. You were part of the Dave1185 clique that caused this problem by constant revert to my talk page.
 * If you wish to so nakedly have a personal agenda outside of the actual discussion please be a little more clever about disguising it. Bugs does not correctly state anything, and neither do you. You two are part of why there is a drama at all. If you had left it alone the page would never have needed protection and a mildly annoying comment (but NOT personal attack) would not have created the problem this IP wanted. Leontopodium alpinum (talk) 12:48, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Your screed proves my point. BTW we have both Attack page and NPA as policies that should be remembered in this situation. Oh and I am not part of any clique. MarnetteD | Talk 16:49, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No, you are completely and embarrassingly wrong on all counts. Recommend you review the literature and Wikipedia policies before making any further comments. Leontopodium alpinum (talk) 18:22, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Marnette has had an account here for 7 years, whereas you've had an account for 7 months. So there's a good chance that his/her knowledge of the rules is better than yours. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:37, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I note that Leon has removed the semi-protected flag from his page. That doesn't actually affect anything. The semi remains in effect until the 13th, at this point. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:43, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It should also be noted that although Leon does not approve of a message being removed from their talk page they have no problem with removing them from other another editors talk as can be seen here  and  MarnetteD | Talk 15:45, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Once again you are kilometers from the correct mark here. Removing a comment from my page 1. Not what this is about 2. Not something I ever opposed. I spoke against you and your pals edit-warring and agitating an IP on my talk page, not against the comment being removed. And you are most certainly not comparing removing my own comments from a page to this, because even that would too nakedly reveal your agenda and bias in this situation. Please do sit this one out unless you have something valid to contribute. You are acting as the "garbage truck", as your buddy Dave1185 likes to say. Leontopodium alpinum (talk) 16:56, 3 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Uninvolved admin here. I have been reviewing this situation, and come to the following conclusions:
 * The removal of personal attacks and the protecting of the page were entirely appropriate
 * Therefore the request for removal of protections is declined
 * Leon is reminded that this is an encyclopedia and that everything else is secondary to that goal. It's July, and you have made but 3 edits to actual articles this year. And no, it's not "biting" to say so, merely a reminder of what it is we are supposed to be doing here  which all of you involved in this should take to heart
 * As a show of good faith from all concerned I would ask you all to voluntarily topic ban yourselves from interacting with "the other side" in this conflict. There is an evident pattern of a long-term problem here going back several months. Continuing to have any contact at this point is only going to antagonize the other parties.
 * This matter should now be considered closed. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:51, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

That is fine. For the record I have no idea what "long-term problem" you are referring to. I got involved with this less than three weeks ago when this thread Administrators%27 noticeboard/IncidentArchive756 occurred at ANI and, thus, do not know what you might be referring to. That is why the accusation of cliques makes so little sense. Also, just for my information, will it still be closed when another IP restores the offensive message (which contains no examples of the behavior alleged BTW to say nothing of there being no attempts to "help" as a followup) after the page protection expires? MarnetteD | Talk 21:44, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit war and revert war on the article on Montenegrins
There is an edit war and revert war on this article: Montenegrins between the users. Parties involves in the edit/revert war:
 * User:23 editor
 * User:Navyworth

I reverted one edit and advised the users to discuss their differences of opinion on Talk:Montenegrins to discuss what the topic of the article should be about, as Montenegrins may refer to people as citizens of Montenegro, or an ethnic group in Montenegro that identifies as Montenegrin. The article is currently about the ethnicity of Montenegrins and the basis of this dispute is whether Montenegrins identified as an ethnicity prior to the 1940s. I asked for users to take part in a discussion and present their evidence. In spite of my request for the users to engage in discussions to resolve the problem, neither user has taken part in such discussions and the edit/revert war has continued. The hostility of the edit/revert war began to become very strong at this point: Navyworth reverting edits here and using combative language, 23 editor repeatedly reverted edits by Navyworth with no explanations of why he/she reverted them,  ,  - as can be seen, none of these revert edits explain why the edit was made.

I recommend that both users be given a warning to cease this edit/revert warring immediately, to discuss their differences of opinion on the talk page, to request a Request for Comment if they cannot find an agreement between each other, explain the reasons of their edits, and to immediately cease using combative language.--R-41 (talk) 00:42, 4 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Warned both (under WP:ARBMAC), and blocked Navyworth for a day, as I find his conduct even more objectionable than the other guy's. Question now is, is the IP who suddenly popped up to continue Navyworth's reverts and made personal attacks in the process the same editor? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:58, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - As a non-involved editor, wouldn't you agree that your judgement is injudicious? The arbitration case you cited in your judgement was striked out in 2007 and even if it still holds, the ruling states that an initial warning is prerequisite before taking any such sanction. The same warning that you gave to User:23 editor should have also been given to User:Navyworth. I think that would have been fairer because both were involved in edit warring which in itself is a blockable offense. If you are going to block Navyworth, then 23 editor should have also been blocked. Objectionability is also a subjective judgment. I am interested in what Wiki policy states. For the record, I am not affiliated with any of these two (and have never conversed with them), neither I am a contributor to the article in question. My comment are purely based on the spirit of Wiki policy. If am wrong in my analysis, I stand corrected with a direct link to the relevant policy.Tamsier (talk) 13:21, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:ARBMAC is very much still in effect and actionable, as you can see from the unbroken stream of new sanctions logged under it all the time. Yes, it requires a prior warning, so that's why I gave them just that warning now. The block of Navyworth is a standard edit-warring block and doesn't require any such precondition. I decided to treat his conduct as significantly worse than the other guy's because (a) he has been around longer, (b) he has a significant history of prior disruption, (c) he continued edit-warring beyond a warning, (d) he reverted more often, (e) his reverts were accompanied with personal attacks, (f) he was revert-warring against an apparent consensus of several other editors, and (g) the other guy at least tried to request help from others, indicating he was aware something was wrong about the situation. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:42, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I see no diffs other than having to take your word for it. With respect, that will not do. Policy is policy and should be judicially applied when passing such judgments. Ignorance of policy is no excuse no matter how new an editor. As regards to Navyworth's talk history, I do not see a massive list of severe issues (exc. this) other than FfD nominations and the one you added in July 2011 . Surely, he could not have been that disruptive since he registered in 2008. If he was, then surely administrators or other editors did not find his "disruptiveness" severe enough to warrant a warning on his talk page. As such, we have problem.Tamsier (talk) 14:19, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Why do you expect I should have to spend time digging out diffs for you in a matter that doesn't concern you, just on your say-so? I looked at both parties' conduct and made a decently well-informed judgment to the best of my ability. If one of the parties wants to challenge it, they are free to do so. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:46, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I am so sorry you feel that I have inconvenience you. I thought the application of Wiki policy (or lack of) is an issue that concerns every contributor on Wikipedia. By your edit, I can only conclude you don't believe so. Since you have blocked one of the parties, I doubt if they will be able to challenge your decision until after the block has expired, by which time, there is no point in challenging it. I am interested in "procedural fairness". I believe the decision to be injudicious, hence my comments. This is not about you digging diffs because of my say-so. This is about you justifying the action you've just taken which I believe to be contrary to Wiki policy (see above). With respect, you still have not done so (based on policy), and may be this is one of those incidents which needs to be taken to ANI. I would like to know what other administrators think, and would accept the consensus whatever it may be.Tamsier (talk) 16:02, 4 July 2012 (UTC)


 * What policy exactly is Fut.Perf. supposed to have applied badly? He warned both users per WP:ARBMAC, and he explained in detail why the conduct of one of the edit-warring users was worse than the other's. Even if he was mistaken about Navyworth's prior history, that still leaves multiple reasons why Navyworth's conduct was worse (chief among them the fact that 23 editor at least tried to get a discussion going). I'm not an admin, but I see nothing wrong with Fut.Perf.'s decision. The WP:Blocking policy explicitly mentions personal attacks and disruption as a block reasons, and Navyworth was significantly more disruptive. Also, Navyworth can request to be unblocked. He cannot request 23 user to also be blocked, but what purpose would that serve? Huon (talk) 16:38, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much Huon for your contribution. Perhaps I have gone blind or loosing my faculties, so would be so kind to show me where 23 editor had "tried to get a discussion going"? I have looked in the article's talk page (where discussions are held and consensus reached) but there is nothing there by either 23 editor or Navyworth. The only involved person I see there trying to get a discussion going is R-41, the editor who reported the two. Even R-41 in their report (above) states that : "I asked for users to take part in a discussion and present their evidence. In spite of my request for the users to engage in discussions to resolve the problem, neither user has taken part in such discussions and the edit/revert war has continued." Further, 23 editor has shown no interest, even in the edit summary. Indeed, he did not even leave comments in the edit summary expressing a wish to hold a discussion in the article's talk page and reach a consensus, instead, he kept edit warring. This is the problem I am having. So when I read 23 editor has been trying to get a discussion going, I ask how and where? Because he surely didn't do it in the talk page where it should be done, and still haven't done so. For the record, I am taking no one's side. I think they are both as bad as each other regarding their edit wars. My issue is the fairness (based on policy) in which Future Perfect has passed his judgement. At present, I have not been convinced. Tamsier (talk) 17:52, 4 July 2012 (UTC)


 * 23 editor went to Navyworth's talk page and asked for sources. Surely not the best choice of venue, but still better than nothing. Huon (talk) 20:15, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You've said it : "Surely not the best choice of venue..." As regards to whether it is better than nothing, I think that is a subjective opinion. 23 editor practically posted to Navyworth's talk page accusing him of vandalism (a civility breach especially in this heated issues) and then talked about general consensus which he had played no part in reaching even after being invited by R-41 on the talk page, which he still has not contributed to other than edit warring. Surprised he talked about discussion on the talk page but did not part take in the open discussion other than edit war. This brings me back to my point above, they are as bad as each other regarding their edit wars. Now if Future Perfect found it fit to block one, he should have found it fit to block the other. If he decided to give one a mere warning, then he should have done the same for the other.Tamsier (talk) 21:30, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Since I was the one who posted the original complaint here about both users behaviour, what I will say is that there are different levels of administrative action that I believe were needed here. On the issue of strong combativeness and highly uncivil behaviour in violation of Wikipedia principles - Navyworth required a reprimand on the account of combativeness, this will serve as a reminder that such behaviour will not be taken lightly. so I support Fut. Perf's decision on that issue. However I somewhat agree with Tamsier that 23 Editor's behaviour has been very uncooperative. Outside of the issue of Navyworth's uncivil combativeness that deserved a reprimand, I believe both Navyworth and 23 Editor require the following clear and direct warning: that any further revert warring between them or others will result in immediate administrative action via a topic-ban on the Montenegrins article for both users.--R-41 (talk) 01:02, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, considering the extensive edit-warring on the issue of whether to identify "Montenegrins" as just those who identify as ethnic Montenegrins or whether to identify "Montenegrins" as the citizens of Montenegro (that includes ethnic Montenegrin, Serb, Bosniak, etc.) needs to be resolved via an administrator-overseen Request for Comment - with the administrator serving as both a moderator between the more heated partisans who support one side or the other. The Request for Comment must also include asking users for sources that show when the earliest time that a Montenegrin ethnicity was used and evidence for when ethnic Montenegrin identity became extensively accepted.--R-41 (talk) 01:02, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

User:Cydebot
This bot is running amok and needs to be corrected - it is currently adding this:Category:American tempura painters to articles about artists who paint with tempera the category should read: Category:American tempera painters. Unless of course they all cook Japanese, someone needs to change the bot...Modernist (talk) 21:16, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Being taken care of by User:The Bushranger...Modernist (talk) 21:29, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Bot isn't running loose; it was told to move articles from category 1 to category 2, and it so happens that the instructions misspelled the name of category 2. Nyttend (talk) 21:31, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Copyright backlog at WP:CP up to 38 days
I decided I was going to remove it from my watchlist when I announced my break from CP because I can't keep up with it and I can't stand to watch the backlog grow, but I just have to point this out. The "Advice for admins" pages tries to make it easier for admins who want to pitch in. I'd say maybe we could use some more clerks, but I wouldn't even know who to approach. If anybody wants to take a stab at it, it can use all the help it can get. The more the merrier. Many hands, light work. Name your cliche. It just needs people. :/ --Moonriddengirl (talk) 21:28, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Copyright problems
 * Copyright problems/Advice for admins
 * I addressed the open issues on 18 May, so you can skip to 20 May if you want to work on oldest. (I've never closed a day before, so checking to make sure how.) I now know. -- SPhilbrick (Talk)  14:33, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding User:Carnildo
For exercising long term poor judgement in his use of administrative tools, including his recent block of User:Itsmejudith, User:Carnildo's administrative tools are removed. Carnildo may regain the administrative tools in the usual manner via a successful Request for Adminship.

For the Arbitration Committee, Alexandr Dmitri (talk) 15:34, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Discuss this
 * In response to my question, a link was posted — this decision was the result of an arbitration case, not an emergency decision. Nyttend (talk) 19:21, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Advertising
This websites ravensprogressivematrices[.]com/ created 4/2012 edit this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven%27s_Progressive_Matrices#External_links many times for Advertising and money. Please help — Preceding unsigned comment added by LANA5588 (talk • contribs) 01:01, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * We generally allow a link to an official website, so I've reverted your deletion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:17, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I also note that you have removed the link 5 times in the past 24 hours (and 11 times in the past 2 weeks), using your new account and the IP User:113.190.195.152. This is called edit warring and is not allowed under Wikipedia's policies, so please stop before someone decides to block you from editing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:53, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * LANA5588 reverted again, and another editor reported to the AN3 board. I suggest that there's nothing for admins to do here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:09, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

massive over-wikilinking
We have a new editor,, who out of enthusiasm has added wikilinks to phantosmia to several dozen articles. I am going to use rollback to revert most of them, because any other approach is too much work. This is not an incident requiring intervention; I am simply letting it be known what I am going to do. I will give the editor a pointer to this section. Looie496 (talk) 17:32, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I have now done what I said I would. Looie496 (talk) 17:52, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It should probably be noted that they were adding it to the See Also section, as opposed to wikilinking an already existing use of the term, which is what I thought "added wikilinks" meant before looking at the diffs. - SudoGhost 18:02, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, sorry, I should have been clearer. Wikilinking existing uses, or even adding new text that uses the term, would not have been a problem. Looie496 (talk) 18:18, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

List of Webkinz stuffed animals
The prod on List of Webkinz stuffed animals was removed one hour after the 7-day cutoff. Does this still go to AFD or not? Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 01:23, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Still goes to AfD. The point of the 7 days is to give someone a chance to object, but its the objection that counts, not the timing of it. You can also get a WP:REFUND of most prodded articles without much struggle, so it wouldn't make sense to delete it with an outstanding objection. Monty  845  01:46, 7 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Agree with Monty. I (as well as many other admins) undelete most PRODed articles upon simple request.  AfD is best course here, as you've done. Rjd0060 (talk) 02:47, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Article Ban for User:RJR3333 banning him from editing The To Catch a Predator article and the Chris Hansen article
I suggest that I be article banned from the To Catch a Predator article and the Chris Hansen article because my edits there have been to disruptive. --RJR3333 (talk) 05:18, 7 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Please see ANI topic.--Bbb23 (talk) 07:53, 7 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Why in (insert deity's name here)'s name would you open a separate section on a separate board when a related discussion is already underway? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:54, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Chronic Spammer
While patrolling WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology I reverted a spam edit by 115.111.32.134. When I visited their talkpage to leave them a notice of the action, I discovered that they have been warned repeatedly about spamming. I have two questions: Kthapelo (talk) 23:35, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Is this the appropriate place to address this issue? And
 * 2) Do I need to do anything else?
 * WP:AIV is the place for quick reports about obvious spam accounts. DMacks (talk) 23:42, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I just reverted several questionable links he inserted regarding for-profit business colleges. See and . 81M (talk) 01:05, 3 July 2012 (UTC)


 * You might alsowant to read WP:BLACKLIST. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:14, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikimapia
Concerns about the site Wikimapia's suitability as a citation source or external link have been raised at the reliable sources, and External Links noticeboards respectively. Feedback would appreciated as before starting to remove links (as opposed to mere commenting out), I was needing consensus. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Gang rape - unlock
I wanted to create a new article about gang rape, but I found out that the redirect is locked. Can anyone unlock it? --Clidog (talk) 11:55, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you try on the talkpage? 81M (talk) 13:28, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I didn't know about the template. I've added it to the discussion. --Clidog (talk) 13:42, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I recommend that you don't, not least because your common interest in climate might get people thinking that you're another sockpuppet of Giornorosso, whose edit warring was what got that article protected in the first place. If you are willing to weather such sockpuppetry investigations, then you would do well to work up an article at Articles for creation, or in your user space, first. Even better yet, expand Types of rape (properly!) to the point that it is obvious that summary style breakout is warranted. "I have written an article and here it is." is a far better approach than "I want to write an article at some vague point in the future; and I'm not that sockpuppetteer, honest.". Uncle G (talk) 14:13, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not a sockpuppet and I'm not interested in writing the article, it fact, I only wanted to use the text from the page it redirects to. In any case thanks for "willingness". --Clidog (talk) 14:48, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what the sockpuppetteer did. As I said, I recommend that you avoid looking like the edit warring sockpuppetteer.  How are we supposed to reconcile "I wanted to create a new article" with "I'm not interested in writing the article", by the way? Uncle G (talk) 15:24, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't give a fuck about this shit, I'm no sockpupeteer and I have no obligation not to act like one. I only wanted to create a new article and this is what I get. You can check my IP to see that I'm not "Giornorosso". --Clidog (talk) 15:50, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Personally, barring proof, I have no comment on the sock issue. It has been suggested that you create a WP:USERSPACEDRAFT of the article you wish to create.  A simple copy/paste of what's on the other article will not do, as it's horrifically incomplete and would not be a useful article.  If you're not a sock, don't allow yourself to be drawn in.  Draft a useful article.  Period.  (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:59, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * An interesting reaction to a perfectly legitimate question.-- SPhilbrick (Talk)  18:21, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I would like to politely ask you not to provoke me even more.--Clidog (talk) 20:49, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Nobody is trying to provoke you Clidog, you have to understand that when somebody uses multiple accounts to make the same page that community has decided is not wanted, then you come along and say you want to do exactly the same thing, it causes suspicion - we have no way of knowing you're a different person without running a potentially intrusive WP:CHECKUSER. As you have already been told, if you are interested in writing an article about this subject then please do so, in a sandbox page or at WP:AFC. Otherwise just leave it alone--Jac 16888 Talk 20:59, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * sock blocked. WilliamH (talk) 07:46, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

SPI backlog
It looks to me as though there is a substantial backlog at WP:SPI. Requesting that anyone willing and able to do something take a look. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 17:08, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Redirect needed
I need a file named  containing the wikicode   so that the last entry of PA icon will work correctly. Useddenim (talk) 19:05, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Couldn't you create it yourself?  Nyttend (talk) 00:58, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No; I kept getting a "prohibited filename" message that told me I needed an admin to create the file. But thanks for the fix. Useddenim (talk) 03:47, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Possible creation of hoax articles
I'm not sure this is the right place to put such a complaint, but it appears that is creating hoax articles for which there are no sources (at least not according to Google). -- Eastlaw  talk ⁄ contribs 07:25, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * As far as my tired brain can tell, he's creating complete hoaxes. I just tagged one for speedy, but the rest can probably be safely tagged for speedy as well.  Kevin Gorman (talk) 07:44, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I can testify that fluorine perchlorate is real. The others, however, are not. Never mind. I see now that he did not create fluorine perchlorate. In that case, they're all hoaxes. CSD'd. Evanh2008 (talk 07:52, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Indefinitely blocked by Materialscientist.-- Makecat  Talk  08:01, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have indeffed this user and deleted three article they created - those were claims of revolutionary discoveries which could not be confirmed by any web search (like superconductivity at impossibly high temperatures - better say hoaxes). The user was editing from an open proxy and was clearly familiar with the inner working of wikipedia (engaging the RFP and AIV boards from first edits). Likely a block evasion, but I don't know who. Materialscientist (talk) 08:04, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * He seems to be User:李煌教授 because checkuser has confirmed he used a sockpuppet named zh:User:赵明毅教授 on zhwiki. -- Makecat  Talk  08:06, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, this is a straightforward case for applying a checkuser scan. This is a good evidence of a web proxy that might need a proxyblock (maybe a rangeblock). Materialscientist (talk) 08:13, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

CSD backlog
Chaohu, which was tagged under CSD-G6 (db-move) more than 40 hours ago, has yet to be attended to. Also, the following have been tagged for at least 12 hours: I don't care that a few admins may still be in the dark after that nasty derecho back on 29 June&mdash;there should be other admins dealing with, and ideally preventing, backlogs globally, and this is unacceptable. GotR Talk 16:38, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) El Ángel, 37 hrs
 * 2) Thomas Massie, 20 hrs
 * 3) Soban Jat, 19 hrs
 * 4) Ying e Chi, 17 hrs
 * What's the rush? "Speedy" means "anything less than the 7 days required for PROD or AFD".  Have a little more respect for the project, policies (and admins).  There certainly is no backlog (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:46, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought the policy for CSD was 24 hours, so this is really a mis-understanding, not being "damned rude". Besides, up until now, every G6 I have tagged has been decided on within 12 hours. GotR Talk 17:01, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * There is generally no grace period with CSDs they are actioned as soon as an admin gets around to it. I've removed the tags on the last two, they should really go through AfD. Monty  845  17:06, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Dunno what a derecho is but the db-move requests are all sorted now. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 21:40, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * See June 2012 North American derecho. Graham 87 23:03, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Give us admins a goddamn pay raise and maybe we'll move faster :) The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 23:17, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, effective tomorrow, pay is doubled. Now, back to work. SPhilbrick (Talk)  01:19, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I know it's not quite the same thing, but when I glance at the CSD backlog and see 36 items, I decide to work on Copyright problems, where the backlog isn't 37 hours, it is 38 days, or OTRS, where the backlog is 47 days. SPhilbrick (Talk)  01:25, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Just a side comment. In the past I have declined CSDs that sit for over 24 hours.  These are ones that I do not feel comfortable deleting myself, but also are not clearly declinable under any other obvious reasons.  My logic is that, if they have sat at CSD for over 24 hours, and no admin has felt comfortable either deleting or declining in that time, then that fact by itself is an indication that Speedy Deletion is likely not the proper deletion system, and a fuller AFD debate is likely warranted. - TexasAndroid (talk) 20:30, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * "Speedy" doesn't really mean "Must be done immediately". It means "Obvious candidate for deletion so we can bypass the week of haggling at AfD". If there were G10s sitting around being ignored, that would be a big concern; but if something like a G6 or an A9 or maybe a db-talk is left visible for a day, it's not going to do the encyclopædia serious harm. bobrayner (talk) 21:20, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Merger
Could an uninvolved admin close the merger proposal at Talk:Church of the Nativity? Looks pretty clear to me, but as this is a very contentious area I'd rather follow the rules to the letter. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:42, 11 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I've made a closure, with a brief personal recommendation on how to proceed about the trimming. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:45, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:22, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit warring over User Page
User:ThomasMoore1852 is my alternative account, the user page is being edit warred over because I prefer to redirect it into mainspace. Rather than go to rfpp immediately, would someone here please address this issue. Thank you kindly. ThomasMoore1852 a.k.a. Penyulap  ☏  01:08, 9 Jul 2012 (UTC)


 * Stop redirecting it to mainspace. Problem solved. Somebody looking to direct a question or comment to a specific editor should not be directed away from that editor's user/talk pages. --auburn pilot  talk  05:59, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't get it. Is this guy asking to be blocked for edit warring? S/he's identified that it's an edit war and certainly violates WP:UP.  Toddst1 (talk) 06:20, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That policy only restricts user talk redirects, on what grounds did you delete the userpage? Also see WP:3RRNO, its not a violation of policy and therefor he is permitted to edit war on his own userpace. Monty  845  07:03, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree, WP:UP talks only about user talk pages not to be redirect to mainspace, and within an own userspace this is not edit warring - please undelete and stop vandalising this user's userpage. Thanks.  --Dirk Beetstra T  C 07:08, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Moreover, the warning on the user's talkpage should also be removed. --Dirk Beetstra T  C 07:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Mmm. Missed the specific about talk page. Apologies. Toddst1 (talk) 12:02, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I would have intended to put some clarification onto the policy page in the future, but I gave up in the present because of the inevitable shouts of creep made in the past. Penyulap  ☏  13:47, 9 Jul 2012 (UTC)

RfC
there is sufficient confusion over the issue elsewhere to warrant a RfC here. Penyulap  ☏  19:50, 9 Jul 2012 (UTC)
 * Now that there is an RfC on the issue, might I recommend that everyone stop reverting each other? This is getting ridiculous, and there's no reason to continue the conflict when we'll have a definitive answer to whether it's allowed or not once the RfC closes. Penyulap, the "letter of the law" may not currently say that you can't do what you've done, but the fact remains that if your editing is in dispute and you've been asked to stop, you're supposed to stop. Everyone who's reverting Penyulap, why get deeper into the dispute when the community will give you an answer soon enough? Leave it up to the RfC. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:08, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you figure it's time for me to ask at rfpp as I intended, to stop everyone, including admins, warring over my own userpage. Hey, quick show of hands, how many people think I'm doing this on purpose ? lol. Penyulap  ☏  21:42, 9 Jul 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, the RFC was improperly closed, which might explain why it is continuing. Since no one has demonstrated any harm by the redirect, and no one can show where policy prohibits it, and I can show where policy went out of its way to not prohibit it, I can only assume that a great many people are mistaken about this issue.  That I have to even spend the time to defend this silly little redirect shows how overly bureaucratic and domineering we've gotten as a community recently.  As Wikipedians, this is not our finest hour.  Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;  13:06, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, it is disallowed per policy.  UP#SUB and  UPYES.     Specifically UPYES, which states :

Details about yourself should not normally go in the main encyclopedia namespace (reserved for encyclopedia articles only), and encyclopedia articles should never link to any userspace pages.

Linking his userpage to a main page runs counter to this,explicitly. Further, while you don't have to have anything on your user page, you are allowed to redirect it to  your talk page only, per UP#SUB: User page Your user page has a name like this: User:Example. (This link is to yours.) Its normal use is to give basic information if you wish, about yourself or your Wikimedia-related activities. You don't have to say anything about yourself. If you prefer to put nothing here then you can redirect it to your user talk page for the convenience of other editors. It never allows for a redirect anywhere else. Just my .02 "....We are all Kosh...." <-Babylon-5-> 16:14, 10 July 2012 (UTC)


 * UPYES says "Details about yourself should not normally go in the main encyclopedia namespace ..." - this is information in the user namespace. "... and encyclopedia articles should never link to any uyserspace pages" (my emphasis) - this is the reverse, hence, there is nothing that says anything.
 * UPSUB says "If you prefer to put nothing here then you can redirect it to your user talk page for the convenience of other editors." - however, if a user prefers to have something else there (say, a redirect to mainspace) then there is nothing in that sentence that prohibits that. We may not like it, and we can talk to the editor and try to convince them, but in the end, there is no policy basis that prohibits this (and there should not be).  --Dirk Beetstra T  C 05:40, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * With links, they are one-way, and the policy doesn't really mention that. So when you read it with that in mind, that they link only one way, it will clear that up for you. Userpages just for the time being can state you're an alien from another planet, or editors can insult themselves and talk nonsense. No doubt there will be editors who will make demands one day in the future that userpages be regulated with maybe even a new BLP/U drama board for issues like "Editor X says they come from Africa, met Michael Jackson and they do brilliant editing, I dispute that, blah bla bla citation needed blah bla Jackson was already dead bla bla blah". But for now it's the locker where we can put our approved personal possessions prior to labouring at the cube farm. Penyulap  ☏  01:31, 12 Jul 2012 (UTC)

Has everyone finished yet ?
Not that I mind the attention from so many editors, admin and non-admin alike, fighting to own my userpage, but do you think if it is not too much to ask, that the page be returned to it's former state whilst people argue or get sick of arguing or whatever ? I've already enjoyed the lovely example of how Vet editors are followed about while they do their boring routine and are halted by critics yelling "HA! I found something" like a kid with a metal detector who just found pirates gold at the beach. I can see how they'd be concerned (I'm not) about continuing to work when admins itching to block and don't need real excuses form a throng. Because who cares if they are wrong ? I consider Toddst1 as both competent and trustworthy because he/she admits to being human, and let's face facts, we are all human. Toddst1 is not part of the editor retention issue I expect, being able to admit a mistake (even if he/she turns out to be correct) is an obvious hallmark of someone who we can build a community around.

Meanwhile, Future Perfect at Sunrise seems to have appointed them self supreme ruler of my userpage, may I be so daring and bold to ask why he/she thinks I approve of this state of affairs ? Penyulap  ☏  01:31, 12 Jul 2012 (UTC)


 * How about because you don't  own your userpage.

"....We are all Kosh...." <-Babylon-5-></b> 11:24, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Mop-wielders needed
The backlog at Copyright_problems is at 38 days, and now long enough that it is creating a technical problem, as the template include size is exceeded.

The best solution is to cut down the backlog. The backlog had been kept manageable most through the efforts of Moonriddengirl, who has temporarily "retired" from CP, if it is correct to call it a retirement—she decided to work on the longer backlog at CCI

There's ten or so items a day, for roughly 400 items in the backlog. If every admin addressed ONE item, there wouldn't be enough to go around.

Actively ensuring that we do not permit copyright violations is critical to the existence of Wikipedia. I'm not going to pretend it is fun work, but it often requires reading the whole article, and I've learned about some people and events I might not have learned about otherwise.

Please do at least one, and we'll have the backlog reduced in no time. SPhilbrick (Talk)  11:40, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Let me add my plea to this. The problem is actually worse than it appears, as there is much undetected copyvio. I seem to be removing copyvio almost every day without working at CCI. I'm trying not to add editors there, which may be a mistake as it makes the numbers look smaller than they are. Dougweller (talk) 11:54, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thirded. I'm helping out when I can but as I'm currently travelling this isn't very often.  As well as the technical issues this also means that there are probably hundreds of articles which are either partially or entirely blanked.  Advice for dealing with these listings is at WP:CPAA. Dpmuk (talk) 12:29, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Fourthed! I'm only a CP clerk, not an admin, so I can only completely resolve some types of CP listings, e.g. those not needing revision deletion or whole article deletion. If you're new to working at CP, be sure to leave a quick note under the article's listing saying what you have done and that it's resolved. You don't have to use the symbols if you find that too fiddly. But don't delete the whole listing when you've resolved it. We need to keep track of how many articles we've dealt with there and how we dealt with them. Doug is absolutely right. What is at CP is only the tip of the iceberg. :/ Voceditenore (talk) 17:02, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Welcome to yet another symptom of the decline of Wikipedia. Not to worry though, the Foundation's right on it sticking their thumbs in the cracks via editor retention. Smart, them thar folks. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:43, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Wonder what effect it would have if we restricted article creation to autoconfirmed users? Nyttend (talk) 18:41, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It's one potential solution of many. It may take many solutions. Bottom line, content over time is becoming increasingly static with less and less creation. With the decline in editorship (now in its fifth year I believe) there needs to be a strategic plan in place for long term survivability of the content. There is, to my knowledge, no such plan now other than ineffectual (to the overall purpose) attempts at editor retention. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:03, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Nyttend, we've been barking up that tree for over a year now; tell them. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 20:50, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * My edit summary linked the ACTRIAL page; I too was disgusted by the response from WMF. Nyttend backup (talk) 18:57, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

I also partially blame the RFA process for this. I for one would help with some but I am not an admin nor likely ever to be, so even if I found a problem, all I could do would be to refer it to someone with access. If admins weren't the only ones that could do some of the other tasks that currently are restricted only to admins and some of us old timers that have been around for years and with hundreds of thousands of edits, but have for various reasons been deemed as not trustworthy enough to wield the mop, then more admins would be freed up to do some of these other things. Kumioko (talk) 20:28, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I shoot a lot of these on sight while doing long stubs cleanup. Another list that is excessively large, but less critical.  One note on the list, it seems to be stale, probably due to what others have reported as database problems. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:24, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The list isn't really stale - the individual days are still being created and should contain listings - they're just not being transcluded onto the main page due to too many transclusions. Not idea but at least it means those listings won't be lost. Dpmuk (talk) 20:33, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Well it isn't blatantly obvious you can't be trusted? You haven't reached 500,000 edits yet without getting blocked. Of course, the fact that you have over 350,000 edits means you've been around too long to be trusted with the extra tools. I'm quite positive there would be an enormous amount of damage to the project if you were made an administrator, and worse since there's no effective way to remove an administrator who makes bad decisions, we're all terrified of the abyss the project would descend into if you were granted the admin bit. Besides, I'm sure the 9 admins we'll promote the last six months of this year will gladly step forward and focus on this area of concern. Your services just aren't needed! --Hammersoft (talk) 20:43, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Kumioko, I respectfully, but vociferously disagree. The most important tool in a CP task is editing ability. In second place is general commonsense judgment (which is not as common as it should be) and maybe in third place is access to tools. Open and shut, this was a pure copy of some site without question does require the admin bit to delete, but most of those are picked up and handled as CSD G12. If it gets to CP, it is probably because it is a mixture of copying and original prose, or there's some question about which was copied from what, or the paraphrase is a bit close for comfort. The solution to the first and third is editing, the solution to the second is a little detective work, neither of which requires the admin bit. I guarantee that if you rewrite some prose so it now complies with our guidelines, but think a couple revisions should be revdel's and post on the CP page that all is fine except for the revdel, you'll earn my undying gratitude, and I’ll happy wield the mop for the easy cleanup.


 * A perfect example is Bloody Knife (7 July). A GA review found some close paraphrasing issues. It is well-written enough that it should be fixed by someone who can take the care to improve it, not hack out some of the problematic sections. If done correctly, it will result in a GA, and no admin need be involved. (I don't think we need to rev del everything but don't tell MRG I said that) SPhilbrick (Talk)  21:40, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * indeed, i think the policy is or at least should be that rev del is needed only when the copyright holder requests it, or perhaps in certain exceptional cases where there is no possibility of a fair use defense, though I find it difficult to imagine any. In general, since WP has an educational purpose, our use is transformational in making a free encyclopedia, &  is most unlikely to cause anyone commercial harm,  even if the work were poetry or fiction & we used the whole work, a plausible US fair use defense is possible in essentially all cases.  We choose to restrict ourselves further (which I accept is a prudent policy and a wise choice by the Foundation) and therefore should delete to match our own self-imposed requirements; the only reason to rev del even upon outside demand is to retain good will in the conventional publishing community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DGG (talk • contribs) 03:50, 10 July 2012 ‎
 * Actually, not all that many articles require rev del. It's normally sufficient to simply remove the offending text from the article, either by chop or rephrase or by reverting to a clean version. And that's what we do on the whole. The value of rev del has to be balanced against (1) losing attribution for the intervening editors who didn't add copyvio, and (2) the complexity of the task for the admin. It's easy if it's all been added as one chunk, and no one else has worked on it. Otherwise, it's often best to leave the old versions unless we get a complaint. There are a few cases where the copyvio is so pervasive and foundational and often from multiple sources, that the only solution is a complete re-write on a temp page and deletion of the previous version. Even as a non-admin, I'm able to clean many many articles at CP either by excision or rewriting on a temp page, and only ask for an admin when an article needs to be replaced with the rewrite. Voceditenore (talk) 05:49, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Re the suggestion that requiring auto-confirmation to create articles would help this situation, I don't think it would make a real difference. The majority of the problems I see are copyvio added to the article after it's been created. For example, 3 years after Pasadena High School (Pasadena, Texas) was created, this little beauty was added. Two years after Yale Law School was created, this chunk of copypaste was added. Also, a fair amount of the copyvio I have dealt with has come from long-term and sometimes prolific editors—just take a look at Contributor copyright investigations. Voceditenore (talk) 07:59, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I have little experience with CCI work, but I tend to agree that most necessary work can be very effectively done without admin tools. I also have a vague impression that reducing our collective level of copyright perfectionism could help in dealing with the backlog. I don't think that going the extra mile by revision-deleting offending content adds much of value: As long as the problem content remains hidden in the history, it no longer exists for most practical purposes. Also, while close paraphrasing is a big deal to some, I find it hard to get excited about it: as long as there is a citation attached to the text that makes it clear where it draws inspiration from, I prefer close but accurate paraphrasing to an original but inaccurate representation of the source's meaning.  Sandstein   13:30, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

AE backlog
If any admin fancies getting roundly criticized and deafened by indignant protests and wrathful recriminations, please head towards the AE arena where your services would be appreciated. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'<font color="#990000">Ankh '.<font color="#000099">Morpork  16:25, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Draw another goblet from the cask of 43... I guess I'll do what I can, but we definitely need at least a couple other admins; I've commented in one discussion already, and I don't want to close that myself because it's not a particularly straightforward problem. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 21:43, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * We really aren't being paid enough for this... T. Canens (talk) 05:45, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

I stopped participating in AE after, when I made an AE block and another administrator undid it without discussion, I found that the Arbitration Committee was not interested in effectively and rapidly enforcing its rule which forbids such reversals - it took the Committee a ridiculous two months of full arbitration proceedings (WP:AESH) to come to a non-result consisting of ineffectual advisements, cautions and reminders. Based on this hugely time-wasting experience, combined with the tendency of regular AE work to attract the undying hatred of editors from all sides of all nasty ethno-religious conflicts that play out on Wikipedia (as noted by AnkhMorpork), I've come to the conclusion that AE is not a time-effective way of contributing to improving Wikipedia (although, of course, the experience of others may vary).  Sandstein  12:58, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Communications of Barack Obama
Could someone please move Communications of Barack Obama back to Barack Obama on Twitter until a proper page move request is initiated. The current content of the article does not support the recent page move.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:15, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Face it, Tony. The article will be restructured, rewritten, and re-evaluated in no time. Seriously, I like this title because we will take out all the crap about Twitter. Even though there is no consensus to delete, this doesn't prevent making changes to the article itself. --George Ho (talk) 20:22, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Basically, what you are doing is saying even though the consensus was that this topic is appropriate, you want to change it to have your own way without a discussion. This is not a minor revision and should await consensus.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:24, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * What you are doing is saying you don't like the fact that this survived the AFD, so I a am going to totally change the topic.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:28, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Look, I'm too tired to discuss anything about you. Not tired to discuss what matters for general readers primarily. Leaving this article as an article about Twitter by Obama would make both editors create such stuff to other celebrities and readers jump into conclusions generally about Wikipedia. --George Ho (talk) 20:43, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

NOTICE The AFD nominator has reverted this administrator change without consensus.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:35, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * What actions are appropriate against an AFD nominator who won't give up the fight. He needs to await consensus through the proper channels.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:39, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've restored the page to the version as of the close of AfD and protected the page for three days. -- RA  (talk) 21:52, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Downloading large numbers of pictures
I'm working on a project that will require me to download large amounts of pictures from Wikipedia. I've been trying to find some advice about the best way to do this without breaking any Wikipedia rules or guidelines, but have had no response to my question on the help desk. I have heard that using Wikix is the best way to do this, but some people have reported being blocked from Wikipedia by using the utility. There is one such example here. Can anyone here advise me on whether using Wikix is allowed? And if it is allowed, are there any restrictions on download speed or time of day? Thanks,Nozzleberry (talk) 11:41, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Let me ask what sort of numbers your talking about...a couple hundred or a couple thousand? IS there a certain category or filter your using to determine which ones you want? That might help to get a better idea of how best it can be done. Kumioko (talk) 19:10, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for your response. I think it will probably be around 10 thousand or so pictures but it may be less. It will be pictures from a large spectrum of different articles, not just a whole category or anything. I do want to download only pictures that have a copyright tag allowing re-use though. RegardsNozzleberry (talk) 13:50, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * From Wikipedia or from Commons? For example, if you look at the article Cancer all of the images except File:Breast cancer gross appearance.jpg are actually at Wikimedia Commons (and even that file may be moved before long).  Most re-usable images are stored there instead of at the English Wikipedia.  We mostly kee non-free images here.  If you want to download images from anything except those few stored directly at the English Wikipedia, then you'll need to ask for advice where the images are actually stored.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:13, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I see, it sounds like I may be able to limit my downloads to only files from Commons then. Is there a need to notify anybody or ask for permission if I wanted to complete regular downloads of up to 10,000 images (say once a month) from Commons?Nozzleberry (talk) 20:19, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've never seen a requirement for that, as part of the CC-BY-SA license is that permission is not required. Just be sure that you follow the individual license requirements for each image. (There may be a bandwidth issue, but you'd have to ask someone more technically minded). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:49, 11 July 2012 (UTC)#

Many thanks to all for the advice :) I'll probably just give it a go and see how I get on, but will use a low download speed so as to not hog the bandwidth. Regards, Nozzleberry (talk) 22:40, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Is the question here about the use of bandwidth that downloading 10,000 images would cause? I think that's a question for the foundation's tech guys maybe?  Commons would know better.--v/r - TP 16:16, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, the bandwidth is the main issue I was wondering about. Is there a place to post a question to the 'tech guys'? Or do you think I should just post it on the commons discussion page? Thanks Nozzleberry (talk) 17:06, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Ask your question here and specifically mention that you are concerned about bandwidth misuse.--v/r - TP 17:46, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll do that now...Thank you very much indeed for your time! :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nozzleberry (talk • contribs) 23:23, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Funny article
(first paragraph) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_A_Rock

Tee Hee... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.64.185.117 (talk) 13:49, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed and warning left for the editor in question, thanks. BencherliteTalk 14:07, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Problem articles - possible fraud?
I noticed a page with suspicious content today, and tried to get some help at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_China and Help_desk, but so far no useful suggestion. I apologize if this is not the right place to raise this issue, but since wiki may be used here to commit fraud, I thought the administrators might be interested in the matter.

I will repeat here what I said in the other pages. Many of the items (possibly all of them) shown in the Ancient Old Jade page appear to be fakes, some of them obviously so. For example the figure of a servant girl holding a lamp is a copy of a bronze figure discovered in a tomb - second picture, while the warrior figure is copied from figures of the Terracotta Army (these figures are never found to be made of jade in ancient China). Since many of the others also have similar appearance, those are also likely to be fakes. It seems that the pieces used for illustration in these pages are sold at auction, for example the piece at this |auction site (which I traced from the editor/uploader's own website here ), the same piece is used to illustrate the article here (the last one in the section). There is a very strong suspicion that wiki is being used to commit fraud here - the pages are created and the images are posted in these pages to give spurious authenticity to the items which are then sold to the unwary. Other suspicious pages I found are Jade carved WuengJonq and Mutton fat white jade (although this is a legitimate term for a certain kind of jade), all involving the users Orionandhsu, Orionwebmuseum, and OrionHsu (all likely the same person, one of these accounts is blocked indefinitely). I don't know what the rules are for these and what should be done to the article or the users, I have placed a warning on Ancient Old Jade although I don't know if this is the right way of doing it. Hzh (talk) 23:39, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if there really is a right way to do it, so this was as good as any. I too am finding those images extremely suspicious, and I'd fully support their mass removal at least for the time being.  Better to discover some of them are real and reinsert them than have misleading images in articles.  I don't want to screw with the formatting, so I'll let someone who's better with such things handle it.  The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 01:49, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The discussion is about the topic Ancient Old Jade. Thank you. Only bronze or earth works of art would be used to copy jade carved works of art, because jade is much more expensive than bronze and earth. In ancient China, jades are the privileged items of Royal and Noble families. So they would not have been used to copy other works of art and became Fakes. Besides from the carvings of the jade, we can easily judge the finished years and dynasties of jade carved works of art. How can you find an Ancient Old Jade and an ancient imperial jade carving master to do the Fake in modern world? The carvings of Ancient Old Jade can tell the truth. Modern Fakes have no natural earth soakage colors at all. How can you create the extremely firm and solid jade soakage colors over 2000 years in modern world to cheat those trully experienced jade experts existing everywhere in the world? --Orionandhsu (talk) 03:02, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Authenticity aside, the number of images in that article is clearly excessive. We don't need five different images to show a single colour of jade, let alone five images of the same object at different orientations. One image of each colour would be perfectly sufficient. – NULL  ‹talk› ‹edits›  04:42, 12 July 2012 (UTC)


 * They are not authentic. The originals of two examples I have given were created for specific purposes - the terracotta warriors were used to guard the emperor in his after life, the servant girl holding a lamp is exactly that, a lamp.  Note the odd placement of the right hand of the figure in the bronze original, that's because it serves as a chimney for the smoke.  The form serves a function. The fact that the  jade figure  has the exact same form suggest that it is a copy because it has no function in jade.  Also note the difference in quality of the sculpture, the jade one is clearly inferior when it is supposed to be more valuable.  Note also the red outline in the jade figure, which I have never seen that in jade.  No figures of warrior in jade has even been found in China (nor in terracotta before they were found), so the jade one is likely to have been a copy, if the jade warrior is real, it would have made the news, and I have never heard anything like that. There are plenty of images of ancient jade in the web, and none of them look remotely like some of the pieces shown in the page (for example the pieces next to the girl holding lamp), that that would suggest that those aren't jade at all.  Hzh (talk) 09:02, 12 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I have nominated Ancient Old Jade for deletion. See here. Silver  seren C 07:11, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Can the other pages likely to have been created by the same user, Jade carved WuengJonq, be nominated for deletion as well? It is also suspicious, and serve no purpose apart from advertising for the creator of the page.  Mutton fat white jade, while a legitimate term in jade, may no warrant its own page, but I'll leave it to others to decide. Hzh (talk) 09:02, 12 July 2012 (UTC):::
 * I've also nominated these for deletion.  Sandstein   13:13, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Left a comment at the Commons AN asking for Special:Nuke. Nyttend (talk) 15:59, 12 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I have filed a sockpuppet investigation request at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Orionwebmuseum. -Zanhe (talk) 18:41, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This looks like a possible legal threat to me. DarkAudit (talk) 09:10, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

disprutive edits on Jim Parsons
Hello, Even though Jim Parsons has skipped "I'M GAY" on Time magazine cover User:Bbb23 removes LGBT cats and removes referenced content. See talk page I added 12 secondary references for coming out of Jim Parsons but there is too much WP:WL Ladsgroupبحث 18:49, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * As you know, there is plenty of discussion on the talk page, some of it contributed by you. It seems that you have not carefully read the comments made by other editors, which seem to lead to this consensus. At any rate, this does not require any admin attention, IMO. Drmies (talk) 21:41, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This is a sad indictment of some Wikipedia editors. We have a NYT article that tells us biographical information not in the Wikipedia biography &mdash; such as that the subject at one point wanted to be a meteorologist and took a course in it at university, and the occupations of his parents &mdash; and  and talk about for almost a month is a meta-issue about sexuality.  Stop obsessing over homosexuality and start writing an encyclopaedia. Uncle G (talk) 22:16, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

WP:PERM
Note to admins who patrol/sometimes patrol WP:PERM...due to some issues with non-admin commentary and closing of PERM requests, we're trying to gauge the need/possible roles of non-admin clerk-type work on WP:PERM. Your input would be appreciated at Wikipedia talk:Requests for permissions/Archive 4 (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:01, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Please briefly explain the issues you're referring to and provide diffs. Nobody Ent 12:34, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Go to the talk page Bwilkins pointed to and simply look upwards. Uncle G (talk) 12:47, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Spoiler vs copyvio
I've come across a situation and I am unsure how to proceed. In broad strokes, a current reality tv series contest has a loser at the end of the show, the reveal at the end being one of the major draws of the show (ie. why people wait until the end of the program). Someone posts that uncited result within scant hours of the show's broadcast. I get that we don't do spoilers and we aren't censored, but doesn't posting the results of such a series infringe on its copyright, or interfere with its ability to draw its intended audience? Should there be a waiting period or something? What is the imperative on posting immediately? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:08, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Facts cannot be copyrighted; a claim that just writing so-and-so won this reality show infringes on that show's copyright is about as valid as claiming that writing the Detroit Lions won the Superbowl infringes on the league's copyright. Too much detail, on the other hand, may be a violation. As for spoilers, generally it is accepted to post them as soon as possible. When The Dark Knight Rises is released we will have a fully plot summary within a day (if not hours), at which point the worry will be to avoid putting too much detail in (for copyright reasons). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Jack Sebastian's concerns are related to posts that he made insisting that immediately posting the results of The Glee Project somehow violated copyright because of advertising revenue. --AussieLegend (talk) 04:24, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Regardless of whether the fact is copyvio or not (it isn't), if it's unsourced it should be removed. Watching the episode then writing the final result here unsourced is original research. – NULL  ‹talk› ‹edits›  04:31, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The episode itself, with cite episode, is a perfectly appropriate source (assuming the citation is actually provided). It's a primary source, sure, but fine for reporting straightforward facts. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:14, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Exactly. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:06, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Jack mentioned the fact was 'uncited'. That said, as per WP:RS, 'material based purely on primary sources should be avoided'. It's my view that an episode with no supporting secondary sources is not sufficient. – NULL  ‹talk› ‹edits›  06:21, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The question above was not if it should be in the article, but if the inclusion is a copyvio (it's not). Primary sources in an article about the subject are fine (think of film plots, for example). They are not allowed for establishing notability, but for content it's okay. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:32, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * For content, especially mundane content, primary sources are fine. They are the exception to the rule. If the content definitely improves the article, and neither its neutrality nor its interpretation are in question, then there's nothing wrong with citing a primary source. Saying who won a contest is definitely an improvement to the article on that contest. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:40, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Crisco: Primary sources for film plots is not fine, though. That's a question that was raised in the archive at WT:RS here. Plot summaries necessarily require analysis and interpretation, which must be done by secondary sources.
 * Someguy: I don't agree. WP:RS is policy, and 'should' is a deontic imperative that denotes obligation. We're an encyclopedia, not a newswire; there's no rush to get to-the-second information in our articles. Given a day, I have no doubt there'd be plenty of reliable third-party sources available for us to make better quality use of. – NULL  ‹talk› ‹edits›  06:44, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Null, you'd be arguing against consensus. The plot summary has long been established as not needed secondary sources (or even footnotes). Analysis of the plot, themes, and whatnot does need references. Check out pretty much any film or episode featured article. Primary sources are, by consensus, acceptable for mundane facts and to fill gaps. Do we really need a secondary source to show that Bruce Wayne masquerades as Batman, when the primary sources already have it? No. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:48, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * There are plenty of secondary sources backing that fact up. We're talking about using a primary source where no secondary sources are present. That situation should not occur in our articles. – NULL  ‹talk› ‹edits›  06:56, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Feel free to open an RFC on that if you wish, but I doubt you'd get anywhere. The issue will not be resolved here. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:00, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Also the WP:RS discussion mentioned is almost 5 years old and had little participation. This discussion happened a few years later and while it was primary about spoilers the primary sources were discussed and most of the people in that discussion agreed that primary sources can be used. The discussion is Village pump (proposals)/Spoilers. Since this discussion happened at a later date and had vastly more participation than the other one I think it should take precedence. There are likely more discussions that support this.--70.49.83.93 (talk) 06:10, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Also the discussion Village pump (policy)/Archive 75 from April 2010 came to the same conclusion against requiring secondary sources for plot sections. Also like the previous discussion it had a greater participation that the earlier discussion mentioned. To get the use of primary sources overturned we will need more that a sparsely covered discussion from 2007.--70.49.83.93 (talk) 06:21, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * As long as the show has aired under normal broadcast situations, any normal summary of the contents is fair game on WP. --M ASEM (t) 05:32, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The broadcasted episodes are acceptable primary sources for plot summaries that do not require interpretation or analysis, and plot summaries tend to consist of uncopyrightable facts (of what happened on screen). The issue of spoiling viewers' entertainment, or limiting a show's commercial prospects, are not concerns of ours.  Sandstein   13:17, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It has been well established for years that straight-forward description of the plot of a show or book is acceptably and usually best sourced from the work itself, and that if it is reported in one's own words it is not copyvio. Analysis must be taken from a source; I do not think it is established whether the show's own summary of motivations and similar basic analysis is an acceptable source, but I think it would be--if used as a source, not for for a copypaste. That said, 90% of our plot descriptions are directly copied from the program's own descriptions,and this is not acceptable: first, it is copyvio, and second the program's summary is almost always deliberately a teaser that avoids giving the outcome, and is often written in such a way as to not say the specifics of what actually happens. That we do always give the conclusion if we know it has long been settled, and to persist in removing it is vandalism.  DGG ( talk ) 20:08, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That seems a pretty definitive answer, and I appreciate it. I brought the issue here because I thought there was something that I had only dealt with peripherally before. I realize that I was misapprehending the copyright guidelines we had in place. It seems wrong to ruin the reveal of a program/movie/whatever (in that it essentially steals their ability to generate, unimpeded, their income), but I am not sure how to see a way past SPOILER to do so. Thanks for the multiple responses clarifying the issue.- Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:21, 12 July 2012 (UTC)


 * . I remember hearing on the radio that Ken had lost is marathon winning streak on Jeopardy months before the show was aired. I wish they hadn't as they stated his total but didn't know the exact air date. Would it be out of WPolicy to put a big 'Spoiler' warning on article sections that do this? It may be too late for some, but others may appreciate it. If it is reverted then it can be discussed on the talk page?--Canoe1967 (talk) 03:13, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Used to be like that. Not anymore. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:10, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Also the consensus to delete the spoiler template shows that this is no longer the way things are done Templates for deletion/Log/2007 November 8. A few months later a similar template Templates_for_deletion/Log/2007_December_15 was deleted as well and that is pretty much where we still stand on this issue. Finally No disclaimers in articles is relevant to the no spoilers rules.--70.49.83.93 (talk) 06:35, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Rangers F.C. and Newco Rangers
It looks like Celtic supporters have managed to edit the Rangers F.C. to refer to the team in the past-tense, gotten the page locked, and created a new page at Newco Rangers to reflect the demoted team. This is the same as many recent financial actions - and the entire thing is still in flux. There's huge crystal ballery going on here. It's quite clear that there should only be one article on the existing team, at this time. However any attempt to fix the situation is quickly reverted. Suggestions? Nfitz (talk) 18:01, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Talk:Rangers F.C. is thataway; I suggest you keep there rather than trying to escalate this situation. PS what evidence these guys are Celtic fans? GiantSnowman 18:07, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * PPS - forum shopping is not cool. GiantSnowman 18:08, 13 July 2012 (UTC)


 * There seems to be full consensus in recent discussion at the Talk page at Rangers F.C. and still redirects back to that page are reverted. Forum shopping?  Everyone seems to want everyone to be notified by everything. I was trying to make sure I'd notified correctly. Violating WP:GOODFAITH isn't cool. Nfitz (talk) 18:12, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * AGF doesn't really apply when your opening gambit is to make such broad assumptions about editors you might be in conflict with. GiantSnowman 18:13, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, okay, there's no need for this to escalate into a heated argument. I've already created an AfD for the article, so things can be resolved smoothly and civilly there. <font color="sapphire" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  18:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * trust me if there was clear consensus i would be happy to follow it, this is goign to request for ocmmetn which i hjave just complete i have gather evidence for both sides of the argument nd there comply evidence that the club probally is alive but there nearly equal amount of source says the club is dead and liqudited wikipedia cant ingore sources we have to present it the wya it says in the sources. i am only reverting because ther eis no consensus yet teh request for comment hopefulyl will solve this final and hopefulyl the sitution in the media for sources will eb cler this week-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 18:21, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * the last afd was for keep penguin so i doubt it will change easily Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 18:23, 13 July 2012 (UTC)


 * oh nfitz i dnt liek be regarded as celtic fan because i dnt support you, and wher eis the discussion look at the ranger fc page there is about 100 threads ont eh subject not once is there a consensus-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 18:25, 13 July 2012 (UTC)


 * There seems clear consensus in the final, most recent thread. I never called you a Celtic fan. I called the person who created the new page a Celtic fan. He's been quite open about that. Nfitz (talk) 18:41, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The afd is coming to a close, and the Newco Rangers article is likely to be deleted, so I believe that the problem has been solved. I believe, however that this case should have been issued at ANI, not AN. <font color="navy" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  23:29, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm reading it as likely a no consensus close, with delete most unlikely. And I don't think this should have been at AN or AN/I.  This is clearly a content dispute, telling us that "Celtic fans" did this or that or the other thing wasn't likely to impress admins in the first place.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:47, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * While my contribution to the debate has been as constructive as possible (as can be seen from my indepth posts, evidence & sources within the talk pages) I don't want to threaten my own credibility with the "the celtic fans done it!" arguement. However, Nfitz does have a point, the creator of the 'newco page' is a user called "superbhoy1888", and another contributor, adam, has a badge on his own wikipedia page "this user is a Celtic fan" and his only contributions that are non-celtic related seem to be negative contributions on Rangers pages.  He even suggested an edit on the 'newco' page to read 'Rangers although a enw club are followed by the same set of fans who hate catholics".  Like i said, i don't want to call my own creidbility into question when I've put forward alot of well sourced evidence and objective points, but I don't think it's an unfair comment to say that self-confessed Celtic supporting contributors have essentially vandalized the article with edits that are fuelled by agenda and bias POV. Ricky072 (talk) 16:53, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

block me
for my disruptive edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thenextlike (talk • contribs) 19:14, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This editor is either forum shopping or trolling (I suspect that latter). He/she has left multiple messages at the Help Desk, bureaucrat noticeboard, and my talk page about matters unrelated to Wikipedia. Cresix (talk) 19:18, 15 July 2012 (UTC)


 * what's trolling?? also you all are volunteers then what's problem in helping me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thenextlike (talk • contribs) 19:21, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Would someone please block this troll who has repeatedly hounded me on my talk page after multiple warnings. Cresix (talk) 19:34, 15 July 2012 (UTC)


 * User blocked.  Tide  rolls  19:37, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Miranda Borman
Have any other admins received emails from someone claiming to be an actress who played a child in the Doctor Who episode, "Dragonfire (Doctor Who)"? She emails asking if she can talk to me, then doesn't reply to my good faith responses. After some Googling, I see she has previously emailed 23skidoo -- but she turned out to be a hoax. The JPS <sup style="color:purple;">talk to me  09:07, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Threatening to sock
If someone - not currently blocked, I think they're having a self-imposed WikiBreak following some heated debates with numerous editors last night - e-mails me saying "happy to disrupt wiki using multiple accounts if i have to", is that enough for an indef block? Never encountered the situation before & seeking guidance to get the best solution. GiantSnowman 16:34, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No it is not. If they actually do it that is a different story. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:46, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Further e-mail - "No I'm telling you what i am going to do. Its not a threat its what i will do" - I'm trying to dissuade him from socking, come back as normal and discuss whatever issues he has. GiantSnowman 16:48, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It is probably a good reason to block them from your email though. Tell them to be a drama queen elsewhere. Incidentally the merits of their "case" change the appropriate response, at least imo. Egg   Centri  c  19:24, 15 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Indefinitely blocking is not a particularly good way of stopping him from carrying out a threat which is predicated on his being blocked. Nevertheless, thanks for the heads-up. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:56, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I deliberately didn't name the editor in question to avoid potential drama. GiantSnowman 11:17, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * PS I've notified EW... GiantSnowman 11:37, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Undo rename of 2011 reform of succession to the British throne
Hello, please could this get undone, as the rename was not needed, and unable to be undone (matches some rule that prevents it from being renamed " It matches the following blacklist entry: .*[T₮ŢŤṬΤТЋҬtţťṭτтŧ][OÓÒÔÖÕǑŌŎǪŐŒØƏΌΟΩῸὈὉὌὊὍὋОӨӦӪọóòôöõǒōŏǫőøόδοσоʘǿọ].[Ccċĉ¢сćĉçčUÚÙÛÜŨŮǓŪǖǘǚǜŬŲŰ].{50,200}.* "?).--Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎  21:37, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Y Done Not sure what problem you were experiencing; you might have accidentally typed in a character somewhere. Magog the Ogre (talk) 21:49, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, No mistype as It was a copy paste 1st attempt, typed in 2nd attempt, copy paste/typed into wordpad copy/paste comparison, etc... I am not an all powerful "administrator" on Wikipedia, and do not have access to the same tools and unrestricted access!--Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎  22:02, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * PS, On sites/systems that I am a superuser/administrator/root etc... I always have a standard account to use in order to "repeat"/"replicate" the problem, in order to "verify"/"see what they are seeing" etc...--Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎  22:06, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It sounds like a problem with the title blacklist. Graham 87 00:03, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Anyone got any idea what that blacklist entry is supposed to block? "to?c" or "to?u" looks rather innocent to me. T. Canens (talk) 02:48, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * And how in the world it blocked this title?--Education does not equal common sense. 我不在乎  03:12, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It's more than "to?c". It's "to?c" that is followed by anywhere between 50 and 200 other characters, and it thus matched "to change the rules of royal succession in the Commonwealth realms".  You can find out what this was (and probably still is) blocking by looking at the edit history of MediaWiki:Titleblacklist, and looking at the page move log of the administrator who added the entry dated just before xe added the entry.  Uncle G (talk) 08:01, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * My guess is this. Meh...is a blacklist entry still needed? T. Canens (talk) 12:06, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Probably not, but if you remove it, you risk having NawlinWiki yell at you the next time a pagemove vandal targets that pattern. --Carnildo (talk) 23:54, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Reports going stale at edit-warring noticeboard
I'd like to make a request/plea for more admins to be active at WP:AN3 in reviewing and closing reports. Twice now in the last couple of months I've had the experience of reporting a clear-cut 3RR violation and having the report go stale for lack of administrative attention (29 May, 14 July). It is difficult enough to edit controversial topics like abortion or biographies of presidential candidates under the best of circumstances; when blatant edit-warring goes unaddressed despite being reported, it makes these articles essentially uneditable. I suspect I'm not alone in the experience of having reports declined as "stale" because no admin looked at them for 2 days.

I'm not looking to have the recent "stale" closure readdressed (although I will note parenthetically that after escaping a block due to administrative inattention, the user in question has unsurprisingly continued to edit-war). I just want to encourage more participation by admins. I am an admin and I will take responsibility to help address this problem by more actively reviewing reports at WP:AN3, but I also need to know that if I report a clear-cut case, it will at least be looked at by another admin before it goes "stale". MastCell Talk 20:35, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Slightly off-topic, but WP:RFPP generally suffers from that, as well. It does not help that most of the ones over at RFPP generally deals with disputes and what not. - Penwhale &#124; dance in the air and follow his steps 02:53, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This may be too bureaucratic, or maybe it was already rejected before, but maybe some experienced non-admins could volunteer to clerk these pages? Rgrds. --64.85.216.91 (talk) 03:17, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The issue is that both page-protection and blocking requires Admin tools, which naturally means that there's not much non-admins can do. - Penwhale &#124; dance in the air and follow his steps 03:56, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * What makes this an issue? Are there people cited in the stale reports still edit warring or have they ceased the edit war?  It makes a big difference in deciding if this is a problem.  If a report is stale, but no one is edit warring by the time that someone finds it stale, then there isn't a need for action anyways.  If the edit war continues while the report sits stale, then that is a problem.  Do we have evidence one way or the other which case we have here?  -- Jayron  32  03:26, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the issue is that a lot of blocking admins will use the block log as a primary source to determine the duration of the block. Stale reports naturally means there are fewer blocks (Because most admins will not block then), which also means that the block doesn't fit the level of disruption. At least that's what I'm reading, anyway. - Penwhale &#124; dance in the air and follow his steps 03:57, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Blocks are solely meant to stop active problems. If a report is stale, and there is also no active dispute, then there shouldn't be any blocks handed out, even if the nature of the dispute would have warrented a block had it been acted on at the time.  If the disputants have solved their problems (or at least backed off to a neutral corner for the time being) then one shouldn't block them just because there was some report lying around somewhere.  To block people who aren't actively disrupting Wikipedia is purely a punitive block; "punishing" them for their prior actions.  I don't see such blocks as productive or warrented even if they would have been warrented had the person been "caught".  That is, if a report is stale, and no one is still edit warring, there's no reason to hand out any blocks.  If a stale report allows an edit war to continue, however, that needs to be fixed.  It is the existance or non-existance of an active edit war that warrents a block, not the existance of a report on some noticeboard.  -- Jayron  32  04:46, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, what happened in the case I have in mind is that the editor in question continued edit-warring, but at a 2RR or 3RR level. So I haven't bothered re-reporting it, because a) it will probably be declined as not-quite-3RR, and b) it's actually a lot of work to file a well-formed 3RR report (as anyone who's wrestled with the cumbersome forms knows), and I don't want to waste my time if it's likely to end up being dismissed as "stale" anyway. In the case in question, a timely block would have prevented additional edit-warring, absolutely. At a more global level, my concern isn't bureaucratic; it's practical. These noticeboard reports are the officially endorsed way to deal with edit-warring, but that official way isn't working because of a lack of staffing. Honestly, if someone is faced with an edit-war, I can't really recommend that they spend 20 minutes filling out a confusing report template if it's likely to be dismissed for lack of administrative attention. MastCell Talk 05:11, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Let me try to answer this from a personal perspective then. My disdain for the 3RR rule, and its use to protect (rather than stop) persistant edit warriors is well established.  That noted, if I came across a report which explained, using unambiguous evidence, that a person was engaged in a slow-moving edit war, or was making a deliberate attempt to edit war while gaming the 3RR rule, I would block them regardless of whether they met the letter of 3RR.  It has always been, and as far as I know still is, the established policy that the use of reverting to force through one's actions is a blockable offense, regardless of the speed at which that happens.  Once the intent to edit war is established through evidence, a block should be coming, and I wouldn't decline a report merely because we can't find 4 reverts in a single 24 hour period, if the intent of the disruptive editor is clear.  Furthermore, I've never been one to stand on ceremony or bureaocracy.  You don't have to fill out a form correctly to get your point across.  All you need is diffs and an explanation.  -- Jayron  32  05:25, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that's the right approach, and one I share in how I appch edit-warring as an admin. But my experience is that only a minority of admins are comfortable and/or confident enough to block for "slow-motion" edit-warring that doesn't hit 3RR. It's pretty routine in my experience for reports of clear-cut edit-warring to be declined at WP:AN3 because the technical 4-reverts-in-24-hours limit hasn't been breached. It's also common for reports to be declined because they're not properly formatted. When I personally look at these things as an admin I don't need to see a perfectly formatted report and I'm comfortable handling slow-motion edit-wars. But when I, as an editor, try to get an outside admin to deal with egregious edit-warring, I haven't found this process to work. MastCell Talk 05:38, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That's why I reference the talk page/block log while looking at AN3 reports. A recent report made me yell "Gaming 3RR is gaming", but then I looked into the issue and found something bigger. The issue at AN3 is the fact that the form is rather troublesome, and majority of the time a cursory glance at the history of the article should have brought the violation to light. - Penwhale &#124; dance in the air and follow his steps 07:28, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * In my mind, AN3 is for 3RR violations and not for slower edit wars. The whole setup is formatted to show violations of the 3RR bright line (or edit warring that just barely avoids breaching 3RR, such as four reverts in 24 hours and 5 minutes), which can be done simply by linking a few diffs.  Such is not the case with slower edit warring, which needs more explanation and potentially more discussion, and for that reason I don't see it as being appropriate at AN3; it's better suited at WP:ANI.  Nyttend (talk) 02:14, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes, I wonder if admins have a hard time blocking established, long term users or getting involved in nasty ethnic debates. A couple of times, I've had to pull the trigger on an editor who I've seen around and generally thought of as a net positive (c.f. the AN3 report I just handled a few minutes ago), which is never fun. Conversely, I've also had to block someone who I know is going to try wikilawyering using all kinds of acronyms, which will in turn require me to go through everything point by point for clarification. And I know a lot of administrators (and regular editors, for that matter) who won't go near any major ethnic disputes, especially the ones covered under arbitration cases that are cited so frequently we've had to come up with shortcuts for them. If I had any ideas on how to get other admins to take on these sorts of thorny problems, I'd say something, but I guess the best suggestion I have is to find people with just the right combination of ASD traits to take up the fight, because that seems to be the majority of people willing to run head-on into this (I know if I didn't have said traits, I'd never go near AN3). The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 04:12, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Crosswiki späm, wrong language
User:Indeniseli and [][User talk:Indeniseli]], deleted from some wikipedias, thanks--Musamies (talk) 17:49, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Not sure why you refer to it as spam, it seems to be a copy of a legitimate article in another language. If you feel it does not belong here, talk to the user or nominate for WP:MFD. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:49, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

The Case For Rangers F.C to Remain Within the Same Wikipedia Article
Summary: On the 14th of June, 'The Rangers Football Club Plc', a company formed in 1899 entered liquidation proceedings. Liquidation is the process of selling of the assets of an insolvent business to recoup as much funds as possible to raise funds for the companies creditors. Charles Green led a consortium which purchased the 'history, business & assets' (as sources show) from 'The Rangers Football Club Plc' as a means to continue 'Rangers F.C' within a new company (NewCo).

So what is the debate? Well, this process has thrown up some questions. Is it the same club, or an entirely new club? Does this club retain it's history? Does a club operate within a company, or are they as 1? And should the club have a seperate Wikipedia page to be represented as a new club, or do we recognise it within the 1 Wikipedia page as teh same club but simply under new ownership?

1. What Do the Sources Say? Many journalistic sources have taken the viewpoint from both sides, the 'Talk' pages on the articles are littered with thm from each side of the arguement. The tabloid newspapers have often described the 'new company' as a "new club". Some ex-Rangers players even described it as so. However, many others have reffered to them as the same club, including Neil doncaster (SPL chairman), and even HMRC (whos decision to reject a CVA caused the liquidation). The 'new company' has often been refered to 'Rangers F.C' (the club name) within official documents from the SFA & SFL. Although it could be argued that the sources in favour of the "new club" arguement have only ever been journalistic view points and therefore documents from official governing bodies should take precedent, it is still a gray-area in regards to how the situation is being represented within the media. Therefore we need to evaluate further evidence.

2. Is 'A Club' a seperate thing from the company, or are they 1 and the same? 1 arguement being put forward by the "new club" camp, is that a club IS a company. That they are 1 and the same. It's a reasonable arguement as many official documents and sources purposefully define them as so, by stating the company name, and placing in brackets (the club). But perhaps this is simply to clarify to the readers that when they speak of 'the club' they are talking about the company. So what is 'a club' exactly? Well the FA in England produced this document on club structures: http://www.sportandrecreation.org.uk/sites/sportandrecreation.org.uk/files/The%20FA%20Club%20Structures.pdf says "The FA does not have any rules or requirements that specify that a club must be structured in one legal form or another." The term 'Club' is actually a pretty lose term, infact 2 people getting together to form any kind of association coudl call themselves a 'club'. Most professional football teams however are formed as companies. On page17 of the same document cited above, it details the process of turning a club into a corporate entity. After creating & registering a company, you then proceed to transfer the assets which make up the club, into the new company. If we move on to page20, it then outlines the rules regarding the transfer of membership from 1 legal entity to another. In other words, there is nothing to stop owners of a football club transferring all the assets out of 1 corporate entity to another, (if approved by the regulatory bodies). So, from that we can guage that a 'football club' is made up of certain assets (normally player contracts, a stadium, intellectual property), and these assets can be moved into a company during it's initial creation, and it can also be moved out of 1 company, and into another. So even if you take the viewpoint that club/company are 1 of the same, there is no evidence to suggest they cannot ever be broken apart, (otherwise a simple corproate restructure would be impossible without creating an entirely new club).

3. Precedents. Ofcourse, this is nothing new, it would be naive to believe Rangers F.C were the first club to suffer such fate. So what precedents can we draw upon? All of the following clubs have either been "liquidated" or "dissolved" and now function under new companies (NewCo's); Leeds United AFC Luton Town Charlton Athletic Middlesborough FC AFC Bournemouth Rotherham United

There are also examples of Clubs within Wikipedia which document clubs on different pages, such as;FC Halifax & Chester FC. So what's different? Well these are 2 examples of what is often described as 'Phoenix clubs'. When the old clubs were wound-up, fans groups got together and created these new clubs. The greatest fundamental difference is they did not acquire 'the business & assets' from the old clubs in liquidation. Therefore they have no legal link what-so-ever to the old clubs. They cannot lay claim to any of the intellectual property, use the same 'club name' or use the same cub badge/crest. In theory these clusb could have been created while the old clubs still in existence. So which sets precedent for Rangers F.C? Well since the NewCo purchased "the history, business & assets " of the old company, it is NOT a 'phoenix club'.

There is 1 other issue regarding the sale of assets. Within the sale of the assets was membership to the SFA. Even though it was sold, it still must be sanctioned by the governing body, and we await that decision.

4. History & Goodwill Another arguement made by the 'new club' camp is that the history ends with the old company, and the 'new club' is starting a fresh. Well as we can see from the above precedents, this certainly isn;t the case of Leeds United AFC or Charlton Athletic, who lay claim to their respective histories even though they present companies operating them were formed in 2007 & 1984 respectively. A more robust piece of evidence however is this Interim Creditors Report produced by Rangers Administrators Duff&Phelps, which details the transaction of assets from the OldCo to NewCo.

"4.2 The continuation of trading operations enabled the Joint Administrators to put the CVA Proposal to the creditors of the Company and after the CVA Proposal was rejected by creditors, the Joint Administrators were able to secure a going concern sale of the business, history and assets of the Company to Sevco (see Section 5 for further details)."

"4.4 Following the sale of business and assets of the Company, the responsibility for maintaining all trading operations passed to Sevco which continues to operate the Club."

So within this document the administratos clearly state the new company has purchased "the history" aswell as the assets. It also goes on to state that "the club" is no under ownership & operation of "Sevco" (the new company).

If we move onto appendix 2, the document then details the transaction with exactly what was sold and to what value. It is here we can see the transaction of "goodwill".

what is 'Goodwill'? Goodwill is an intangible assets, which aims to encapture the value of a brand, inclusive of history. If i were to purchase 'Fanta' the soft drink from it's owners 'The coca-Cola Company' this would allow me to continue to trade as if nothing changed (same name, label, intellectual property) lay claim to the soft dirnks history, and ultimatly keep the same customers & same market share. Without the goodwill, i'd still have the manufacturing rights & recipe, but i'd need to come up with a new name, and be percieved by as a new product, thus likely to lose many customers & the current market share of Fanta. Even though "Goodwill" may be a concept hard to grasp, it has been common practice in business for a long time and applies here, with clear record of it's transaction.

5. Conclusion with the above evidence provided, it's difficult to see how a case for 'new club' to be substantiated. The above evidence has dealt with the 3 main arguements heard from otherside of the debate, which thus far have been;
 * Sources in the media describe it as a 'new club'. All of these sourcesare simply a journalistic point-of-view, and each one is contradicted by another source which states it's the same club.  Where is the evidence beyond the wording of a news article?
 * Club & company are as one and cannot be broken. We have disproven that with a document from the FA and with the fact, such an opinion would mean even a simple corporate restructure would be impossible without forming an entirely 'new club'.
 * They are the same as Chester or Halifax. We have ruled these clubs as precedents as they did not acquire the business & assets as a going concern from the insolvent company (oldco), but instead are 'phoenix clubs'.
 * You cannot buy history, there is no such thing as goodwill. you cannot simply state goodwill does not exist because you dont fully understand it.  I have provided evidence in the form of a formal administrative document which states the history was sold & goodwill was purchased.

The wikipedia article Rngers FC was changed to reflect the club in the past tense, as if no longer in existence, and a new article set-up to describe a new club (in the same manner as the above named Chester or Halifax). such change was done WITHOUT concensus. In order to make such a drastic & hotly disputed change without concensus, the onus is surely on those who believe we are dealing with a 'new club' to prove as a matter-of-fact, and beyond all doubt, that this is a new club. So far there has been very thin evidence, if any at all to lead us to believe undoubtebly we are dealign with an entirely new club, and this arguement seems to be based almost entirely on point-of-view. Ricky072 (talk) 23:36, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This user has posted the same argument on the AfD page, which I have reverted. See WP: FORUMSHOP. <font color="navy" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  23:48, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Sadly a few editors continue to roadblock any attempt to get the article fixed which has been locked on a grossly inaccurate version for weeks. People have spent hours on the talk page providing endless sources showing the media and the authorities view it as the same club, numerous examples of precedents have been shown on wikipedia which treat the club as the same despite new companies. But no progress is being made because of the actions of a few editors. 1 of whom posted a sectarian video and the other posted a link to an opposing fans forum too. Its hugely problematic and something needs to be done. the article is grossly misleading and this is bigger than a mere content dispute. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:50, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * When it inevitably gets there, this may well become one of the silliest arbitration cases we'll have ever seen. I have to admit that my understanding of the Rangers FC case is shallow, but if it is basically "team went bankrupt, was sold to a new owner", then god help me, because I have to go split half of the National Hockey League team articles, as well as a couple baseball ones. Resolute 23:58, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Regardless, this is not a WP:AN issue. I'm closing this.  The merits of any action can be discussed in the appropriate fora.  Which isn't here.  -- Jayron  32  00:02, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Secular Islam Summit
I considered bringing this to 3O and to various noticeboards, but I think we're past the point where it's a content problem and significantly into user-misbehavior territory. At Secular Islam Summit, after discussion on several subjects mostly relating to RS-sourced criticism of the article subject, an RFC was held, as was subsequent discussion. Over a month afterwards, with a lengthy comment from myself explaining my reasons for preferring particular edits as the last comment on the talk page, I assumed that no one had any points to make against these arguments, and implemented the results of the RFC, which included minimizing the "back and forth" aspect between the summit and the Council on American-Islamic Relations and removing quotes from footnotes.

I was immediately reverted by Kwamikagami, whose refusal to compromise was what made the RFC necessary in the first place. Kwamikagami's edit included the restoration of original research about a living person (commenting that a person we quote in the article didn't say anything about the summit, which isn't in the source), the re-organization of the article to restore the "back and forth," the removal of sourced critical material (which s/he's been trying to remove since day one, in spite of a strong consensus for it), and, interestingly, the restoration of a quote to a footnote (which s/he opposed before, making it seem as though this is more about reverting my edits than actually reaching a preferred version of the article).

I responded on the talk page, pointing out that my edit had implemented a consensus that was the result of a discussion and asking Kwami to explain the reasoning behind certain parts of hir revert. Kwami refused to answer. I asked again. Kwami again refused to answer.

Consequently, we are at a standoff where Kwami will arbitrarily revert edits to the article, restoring problematic material such as original research about living people, while making it literally impossible to build a consensus for or against them. I would appreciate it if an administrator would step in to warn the edit warrior and let the normal process of consensus progress. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 04:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Roscelese has a history of thinking that if she leaves off the argument for a while, that the resulting silence is somehow consensus. I'm happy with the result of the RfC, she's simply resuming the POVs that she didn't succeed with at the RfC, and I'm not looking forward to resuming the nitpicking edits required to tiptoe around Roscelese's BLP problems. — kwami (talk) 05:24, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Kwami has hit 4RR and shows no signs of stopping. If I take it to EWN, I'm fairly sure an admin will full-protect the page for a day and blithely walk away, leaving the problem in no way solved. I ask again that someone come in and actually deal with this editor. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 04:34, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * User has hit 5RR (again) and was finally blocked. However, please do not consider this report closed, as I expect the edit warring will resume in 24 hours when the block expires. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 19:34, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

WP:PC2012
There's still time to jump in as a closer if anyone's interested. Progress is hard, and is going to get harder. I asked around at Wikimania, and it was roughly 50-50: "doing it will kill us" vs. "not doing it will kill us". I asked everyone if they would be willing to settle for some middle position or accept trying to get there in half-steps; the mildest response I got was "certainly not". I asked people to participate; they don't want to (until, of course, we get to some big vote, at which point I'm sure many will be more than happy to oppose the bits they don't like). One problem: although there's general support for The Blade and me as closers, I'm finding that I'm having to give this a bit of structure, and if the people who have strong opinions keep sitting this out, I'm also going to have to interject some kind of summary of opinions in order to keep this from crashing and burning at the RfC stage, which means I'm not really a closer, yet, I'm too active. My plan is to just do what I have to do, keep talking with people publicly and privately, have the first mini-vote, and then have another quick vote to approve the closers for the next stage (and I won't be offended in the slightest if people feel I've crossed a line and don't want me to close). - Dank (push to talk) 13:28, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I second the request for a fresh closer. For all you may have heard about how much it really sucks at times, you'll find it surprisingly engaging and thought-provoking.  All we need is one willing admin.  The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 23:06, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually ... considering the conversation below ("there is no circumstance wherein it is appropriate to simultaneously participate in and close a discussion" and other comments), plus the stuff that I felt I had to say at WT:PC2012 today, plus some information that I think it would be helpful to add, I'm stepping down as a closer. I'll continue to be active, and I'll continue to support both sides because I think a lot of good people are doing good work on both sides. I apologize for any inconvenience, and obviously, anything that's been said in confidence will remain in confidence. So now I'm guessing Blade would like a couple more closers. It's a tough problem ... but I agree with Blade, it's a fun problem to tackle, and the current supporters and opposers are working quite well together. - Dank (push to talk) 23:01, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

QRpedia edits
Has someone (perhaps inadvertently) oversighted edits to QRpedia In the last few days, Interwiki links in Estonian and Swahili were added, but I no longer see them in the page history. Or do we have a caching problem? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:50, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I haven't looked yet but I can tell you right now that if there was an oversight action, even one with errors, nobody is going to talk to you about it on wiki for the simple reason that we are not allowed to. The first rule of oversight is.... you gwt the idea. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:51, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Now I have looked and I see nothing in the suppression or deletion log. The only recent edit does not seem to have touched interwiki links so I am at a loss as to what has happened to them. I'm also not sure I would recognize either of those languages, it may be helpful if you could see if you can still see them in old revisions of the page. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:00, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The Estonian one has was added months ago, and there is no Swahili interwiki link. Mogism (talk) 19:07, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It's one thing to describe an oversight action, but if it had been performed, what would be wrong with simply confirming its existence? I can't imagine that being a problem except in the case of an offensive pagename, which obviously isn't the case here.  Nyttend (talk) 05:44, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * We just don't do that. We have a mailing list and the audit subcommitee specifically for review of oversight. If there had been a supression action here I most likely would have removed this entire thread and taken the whole conversation offline. See Streisand effect. Talking about something that is supposed to have been hidden only draws more attention to it. I've only even said this much because there isn't one here. Oversight basically means reviewing all sorts of innapropriate material, (most of it rather boring actually) removing it, and then promptly forgetting you ever saw it. This message will self destruct in ten seconds. Beeblebrox (talk) 06:54, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Perth closed
An arbitration case involving the article Perth has been closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:


 * 1) JHunterJ is advised to respond calmly and courteously to queries regarding Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions.
 * 2) Deacon of Pndapetzim is admonished for use of administrative tools while involved, and for reversing another administrator's legitimate administrative action without first entering into discussion.
 * 3) Kwamikagami is desysopped for use of administrative tools while involved in an editing dispute, and for reinstating a reverted administrative action without clear discussion leading to a consensus decision. He may regain the admin toolkit through a fresh request for adminship.
 * 4) Gnangarra is admonished for use of administrative tools while involved in an editing dispute, and for reinstating a reverted administrative action without clear discussion leading to a consensus decision.

For the Arbitration Committee, Lord Roem (talk) 14:38, 18 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Discuss this

Ram Kishore Shukla
A merger I proposed at Talk:Ram Kishore Shukla was closed within hours by a non-admin who had voted on the issue. This wouldn't be appropriate for a deletion discussion according to WP:NAC, does the same policy apply to mergers? Also, there is an issue about whether the page is violating copyright. It's a bit confusing and it would be great if a veteran editor could stop by and take a look. Tdslk (talk) 16:25, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that the page had copyright problems under investigation and that issue is being sorted out. However, that has nothing to do with the matter brought up here. As for the NAC is concerned, I shall look forward to response. VIVEK RAI : <font style="color:#ffffff;background:#800000;"> Friend? 16:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This edit is the one in question - if no-one else picks it up then give me 15 minutes (about to leave the desk!) and I'll sort it out on my return. GiantSnowman 16:57, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry - longer than expected but yeah, the close was 100% inappropriate and I will revert momentarily. GiantSnowman 17:54, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Completely agree, there is no circumstance wherein it is appropriate to simultaneously participate in and close a discussion. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:19, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

You are all invited to a discussion ...
... at WT:PC2012. We're especially looking for the input of people experienced in page protection. - Dank (push to talk) 19:58, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Admin noticeboard navbox
Howdy. Back in April I posted a suggestion regarding the Admin noticeboard navbox. Expectedly, but unfortunately, nobody responded. I thought that this might be the next logical place to point out my suggestion. Anyone have any thoughts regarding my suggestion? If this isn't the ideal place to bring this up, I apologize.--Rockfang (talk) 02:02, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Requests for page protection is backlogged
Requests for page protection has a backlog that could do with sorting. Mr Stephen (talk) 20:45, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Would commenting on Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents help at all?--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:01, 18 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I've gone through about a third of the backlog (the most recent requests), but I'm getting tired and need to go to bed. The backlog is still very long, with some requests two days old now, and it would be good if someone could finish it off. ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 21:47, 18 July 2012 (UTC)


 * It seems not to be backlogged any more. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 05:05, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Need an edit filter
See the page history at WP:BN and WP:AN. A checkuser may also help with finding a rangeblock, but an edit filter should help with the immediate damage. The filter should be easy to set up for anyone with the knowhow (i.e., not me). -- Jayron  32  05:21, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see the need if CU can stop the socking. For an edit filter I'd suggest conditions like "new_wikitext rlike '\=\= (Y|y)eah [\.{3,}] =='" and "new_wikitext rlike 'Password\:[\ ]\#[A-Za-z\d]', but let's wait for CU.--Jasper Deng (talk) 05:25, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Whatever works. Whackamole gets tiresome after a while, and I'm off to bed anyways.  -- Jayron  32  05:31, 19 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, I have located the range, but there is likely to be a fair amount of collateral damage for non-account good faith IP addresses. However, we have reason to believe that the passwords that are being posted are faked, so this may not be quite the serious situation that it appears. Thoughts on a short-term rangeblock, knowing this is more a trolling than a hacking? Risker (talk) 05:34, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * More than one range at play here, but the one I checked is too busy also. I'm going to throw up the filter Jasper sugguested. -- DQ  (ʞlɐʇ)  05:46, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Proposed motion on annotating changed usernames in arbitration decisions
A motion on annotating changed usernames in arbitration decisions has been proposed. Editors may comment in the general discussion section.

For the Arbitration Committee --Alexandr Dmitri (talk) 12:25, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

User:Armbrust
This user is aggressively removing my comments from his talkpage.Also, he has replied in very bad faith and rudely at Requests_for_permissions/Confirmed. He has posted a wrong message at my talkpage.I mean when I was engaged in edit war? He is removing without any reason or bothering to answer.Please reply respected admins and take a look at my request at Requests_for_permissions/Confirmed. Myownmilkshake (talk) 00:27, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, he said on my talkpage that I reverted.but,in fact he reverted my edits. Myownmilkshake (talk) 00:27, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that he has made a correct decision by declining your request Xentram (talk) 00:35, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * He's quite allowed to aggressively remove your comments at his talk page. If he deleted it, he had to have had the opportunity to read it.  Please don't reinstate something on someone else's user talk page once they have deleted it.  It is rude.  Otherwise, the best thing you, Myownmilkshake, is to just back down and go work on something else at Wikipedia.  I don't forsee this as a productive conflict.  -- Jayron  32  00:38, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but why not provide reason? what about warning on my talkpage that I had reverted and what about my confirmed permission? Myownmilkshake (talk) 00:42, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Sure, it would be nice if he provided a reason for deleing your message from his talk page, but he's under no obligation to do so. Let me state this again unambiguously.  Drop this matter and find something else to do.  There is no potential good that can come from pursuing this any further.  -- Jayron  32  00:48, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, there is the reason. I don't discuss private matters with other users, especially if they ask about it. Armbrust, B.Ed. <sup style="color:#E3A857;">WrestleMania XXVIII <sub style="color:#008000;">The Undertaker 20–0  00:52, 19 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Dump that into trashbin.I want an admin to review my request of confirmed. Myownmilkshake (talk) 00:55, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It's been reviewed and declined already by Armbrust. If you accumulate 10 edits, once your account is 4 days old, you get autoconfirmed. I suppose repeatedly ignoring advice that you drop this matter and do something else is a novel way to accumulate those 10 edits... -- Jayron  32  01:04, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * - Sorry to but in here, but I think Myownmilkshake, you are taking things a little out of context from what I have noticed upon checking edit histories. You sent a post to Armburst's talk page which he then deleted.  A user has the right to remove content from their own talk page without giving a valid reason.  Although you will find 99% of the time the user will state their reason in the edit summary, or the user will just archive it.  When Armburst removed the comment you should have really assumed that he had read and acknowledged it.  But instead you reverted his actions, which means you were in the wrong really.  Armburst then removed it again, and quoted WP:BLANKING in his edit summary, which highlights the fact that he provided an explanation to his actions.  You then re-reverted things back again, by which time you have stepped into edit warring territory.  The fact that Arburst has removed your posts twice doesn't mean he has done an edit war, he has rightfully removed content from his own talk page, and explained in his edit summary why he has done so.  The only thing that I can suggest to do, which is rather fair really, is to post some useful hints and tips on your talk page for you.  Take time to have a read of them, and if you have any questions then just ask someone - we are all here to help each other at the end of the day, and to work on building a massive on-line encyclopaedia for people to visit, we shouldn't be bickering over minor little things.  <b style="background:#807241"><font color="#FFE93E" face="Eurostile">Wesley  <font color="#FFFFFF" face="Eurostile">Mouse </b> 00:58, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay pal forget it and review my confirmed request.Myownmilkshake (talk) 01:02, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've indef blocked Myownmilkshake for being a disruptive single purpose account harassing Armburst. His first edit makes that conclusion eminently clear.  MBisanz  talk 01:03, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I would have blocked Myownmilkshake myself if MBisanz hadn't beat me to it.I have no doubt whatsoever upon reviewing this "new" account's edits that they created the account solely to troll Armbrust and/or cause disruption. <b style="color:Navy;">Jezebel's</b> Ponyo <sup style="color:Navy;">bons mots  01:23, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I do sincerely apologise for butting into something that I haven't been involved in here. This page is on my watchlist and the user name amused me, so I thought I'd come and see what was going on.  After reading the accusations I felt as if I needed to at least say something but calmingly (which I hope my comment came across that way).  Hope I haven't offended anyone by stepping in here.  <b style="background:#807241"><font color="#FFE93E" face="Eurostile">Wesley  <font color="#FFFFFF" face="Eurostile">Mouse </b> 01:13, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Nope, you didn't butt in and your advice was perfectly sound. Those sort of reasoned comments are greatly appreciated and encouraged. Just after five years and 180,000 actions, I can spot things a bit quicker then many others.  MBisanz  talk 01:17, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey, it's a free Wikipedia. You're quite allowed to make any good-faith comment anywhere you wish.  No one has the right to object.  Not that anyone here has.  If you have something to contribute to any discussion, anywhere on Wikipedia, feel free.  We appreciate your comments!  -- Jayron  32  01:19, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Phew, that's OK then, I'll get back to packing my luggage ready for my big London 2012 Olympic Volunteering adventure. Thanks for kindness.  <b style="background:#807241"><font color="#FFE93E" face="Eurostile">Wesley  <font color="#FFFFFF" face="Eurostile">Mouse </b> 01:26, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Xentram and Myownmilkshake are ✅ as each other, as well as at least a dozen other socks. --MuZemike 23:52, 19 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh I feel a little bit shaken by this now. Both the users literally had a conversation with each other at the start of this thread, as if they were two different people.  Not only that, Xentram sent me a message on my talk page stating he was also a volunteer at the Olympics.  I trusted him at word value, and now I feel mortified that I have been tricked.  Xentram even emailed me, and I told him my role at the games and where I would be staying.  Now I feel stupid in trusting someone and divulging so much information.  Is there anything that can be done?  <b style="background:#807241"><font color="#FFE93E" face="Eurostile">Wesley  <font color="#FFFFFF" face="Eurostile">Mouse </b> 00:56, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Certainly, one can endeavor in the future to be somewhat less naive, to learn from one's experiences as an editor, to makes better use of one's intellectual capacity to judge other people's actions, and not to jump to unwarranted conclusions – positive or negative – about other editor's motivations. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:40, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Adam Ant Is the Blueblack Hussar in Marrying the Gunner's Daughter
Just wanted to give a head's up. I've removed a song listing from this article per 2012041610008218 which violated the original synthesis rule. Basically someone correctly guessed song ids from ASCAP about this upcoming album. (The song database does not say these tracks will be on this album). Not only does this addition violate the original synthesis rule, the publisher has become so agitated they delayed the album release and cancelled this artist's world tour. See. Someone's already reverted my deletion once. But until the track list has been mentioned in a third party reliable source, they should not be on Wikipedia. -Nard (Hablemonos) <font color="mediumslateblue">(Let's talk) 01:35, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to clear something up - no "world tour" was ever cancelled. As the linked article (apparently sourced from a short  announcement on Adam Ant's official website) makes clear, only a *US* tour was *postponed*. This was not surprising at the time as reports had been circulating of possible US visa issues for Adam relating to his mental health issues and 2002/2003 convictions for affray.
 * As far as album delays go, there has been a constant stream of delays since 2010. That particular delay was no news story at all.
 * For what it's worth, I've made some inquiries and been reliably informed that the Wikipedia album page was *not* the cause of the postponement - in reality the removal request 2012041610008218 - whatever its send may have claimed - was sent due to concerns about the accuracy/up-to-dateness of the song list ... 95.144.241.149 (talk) 20:13, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Little help
My original account has been blocked for 24 hours in violation of 3RR rule.So, I have created this account temporarily with being aware of Sockpuppet policy just to ask would it be evasion of my block if I put a You've got an e-mail template on another user's talkpage? Laughifyouplay (talk) 01:45, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes it would be, as is your posting here. In the future, if you have questions while blocked, ask on your blocked account's talk page, and add an adminhelp template. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  01:48, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit war & resulting personal attacks
I submitted a dispute resolution request here regarding an issue on List of countries by beer consumption per capita. Shortly thereafter one of the editors involved made a pointed comment about my personal life. I removed the attack and another editor, whose edits are borderline meatpuppetry, reverted my removal. I reverted again and the orginal editor restored the talk page yet again. This is not the first time these two have gone 1-2-1 with edits/reverts on this particular wiki. It's worth noting (as I did in my request for dispute resolution) that the debate is over whether or not to sort the list of beer consumed per capita alphabetically or by volume consumed. Each is easily sorted, but there seems to be a lack of good faith for the "average reader's" ability to discern how to best do that. The issue started within the past two days, altering an article that had been established for about six years. All of that aside, the #1 concern I have is that these two editors are going 1-2-1 with reverts to avoid 3RR, throwing out personal attacks needlessly, and canvasing across unrelated wikis looking for support. <B>Erikeltic</B> ( Talk ) 02:19, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It is always astonishing to me how much emotion people can invest in issues that are so utterly trivial. Looie496 (talk) 03:13, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Oddly enough, this is something well noted in all walks of life. See Parkinson's Law of Triviality and Sayre's law.  -- Jayron  32  03:21, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Why do you think this discussion was the latest of many to top 300,000 kb of text? The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 03:56, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Comment. It was not a personal attack by Jbening. It was a question. See diff. I have not been canvassing. I have been leaving the rank order template on various list and table pages, or their talk pages, for awhile now. The other issues belong on the article talk page. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Eh, it was a bit over the line. Casting aspersions in question form is still casting aspersions, and saying it could only have one result: to insult the recipient of the question.  It wasn't the worst thing I've read at Wikipedia today, but in general it is best to avoid personalizing discussions like that.  It only serves to steer the discussion off course, and minimize the chance of having a satisfactory result.  Simply put: don't do things like that, because it makes it harder to work collegially with others.  -- Jayron  32  04:51, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey, for what it's worth, I think coming to the drama boards for such a small thing is, as Erikeltic would say, "NONSENSE". Note his use of capital letters. But what do I know. ;) --Timeshifter (talk) 05:39, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * There is a difference between a personal attack and saying an edit is nonsense.  <B>Erikeltic</B>  ( Talk ) 01:21, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This is the whole paragraph that Jbening wrote that contains the sentence in question (in italics):


 * Erikeltic, can I ask you please to dial it back a bit? I've tried to be civil in all my comments, even though I do confess to some frustration that it doesn't seem like you're hearing what I'm saying, while you keep coming out both guns blazing in your replies. Absolute nonsense? It was an attempt to be helpful. If you disagree with it, fine. I'm not wedded to it. But I think you're being a bit over the top in calling it absolute nonsense. Are you this way with your friends, or only online?


 * Out of context, it may be as Jayron32, the admin, said. That is if you stretch it as far as possible, this may be "casting aspersions". But that even that is far from a personal attack. In context it is not remotely a personal attack or even casting aspersions. It is about as civil as one can be in pointing out another person's tone. Admins should know better than to take things out of context. I think this lack of admin ability to understand and deal with both personal disputes and content disputes is why there are more articles, but less editors. I can understand why average editors may get lost in all the disputes, but I do not see admins getting to the meat of issues by dealing with the content disputes. But that is a long story with many causes. See my link. --Timeshifter (talk) 06:38, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

User Erikeltic has escalated to removing talk page comments
It seems User:Erikeltic is now tag-teaming with User:Chipmunkdavis in removing my talk page comments on various page. This is a violation of WP:Talk. Specifically, they are removing a banner I created saying that it only belongs on articles. rank order. I mean I created the banner, and I know where I want to put it. I have been putting it on talk pages when people remove it from articles. Many people will not notice talk page banners, and so that is why I put it first on the article. If someone removes it from the article, then I know at least someone is probably also paying attention to the talk page. So I put it there to initiate discussion. I put it in a new talk section too so that discussion is possible. User:Erikeltic is blocking this discussion from happening. This is more of his pattern of obstruction. He has driven away Jbening from further editing of List of countries by beer consumption per capita. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Here are some of the talk pages involved:
 * Talk:List of national capitals by population
 * Talk:List of countries and dependencies by area‎
 * I notified both of the above-mentioned users. --Timeshifter (talk) 23:52, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

This is a no-brainer and gets but one response, so here it is. Editor Timeshifter and I had an encounter on another article. I look at his recent contribs and noticed that he was still canvassing and disrupting other articles to make a point about the first wiki. I reverted two of these edits, both of which were inappropriate templates that didn't belong on a talk page. He added no comments at all, just templates that didn't belong where he stuck them. That's it... the end. <B>Erikeltic</B> ( Talk ) 01:35, 21 July 2012 (UTC)


 * You obviously did not read or understand my reply concerning canvassing higher up. I think this illustrates the whole problem. And as for getting only one response, I would point out that it was you that started this whole thread on the drama boards. Over a trivial one-sentence remark from Jbening. --Timeshifter (talk) 06:11, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm only responding to your "removing talk page comments" silliness once. I've done that.  Responding to the reasons we're here initially is quite different.  The second reason I came to ANI was because you and another editor were going 1-2-1 on reverts and perpetuating an edit war.  And yeah... I read you reply, I don't accept it.  Creating your own template about sorting and then posting said template across a bunch of articles is, IMHO, canvassing and exceedingly pointy when you're in a "discussion" about sorting elsewhere.   <B>Erikeltic</B>  ( Talk ) 10:10, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You really don't get it, do you? As I said, I have been posting rank order for awhile now. Well before our interactions. See WP:CANVAS. That tag does not mention our interactions. Maybe it is a vast plot to undermine the reality distortion field of Wikipedia. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:31, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I took a look at your contribs, and I concede that you were not canvassing. My apologies.  However, you were still engaging in an edit war and doing reverts 1-2-1 over ownership issues.  Are you willing to no longer do that type of thing, except in cases of gross vandalism?  Make that promise and I'll drop the ANI here and now.   <B>Erikeltic</B>  ( Talk ) 10:38, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You were the one doing the reverts of the only editor (Jbening) to have done a major update of the list in a long time. There have been no reverts since your revert of Jbening on July 20. See diff. You have driven away Jbening. On July 19 he wrote this in reply to you: "Also, you went 15 months without doing anything about the major update you noted the need for back in February, 2011, which doesn't bode well. But looking back over the number of words spent discussing this piece of triviata, I grow weary, so I think I'm going to check out. Maybe I'll have a look at the page after the 2011 numbers come out, to see if you or anyone else has actually updated the table. Cheers!" --Timeshifter (talk) 10:47, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I'll buy you a beer and we'll drop it.  The ANI discussion here has nothing (in my opinion) to do with the content.  My issue was with your actions during that dispute.  I will consider the matter closed.  I only hope that in the future it doesn't happen.   <B>Erikeltic</B>  ( Talk ) 10:52, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Fake Admin?
User making some rather strange comments on a Talk page, claiming to be an admin. - LuckyLouie (talk) 23:20, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

My guess is that he has placed a in his signature, which is against WP:SIGN to begin with. However, the bigger concern is that he is trying to impersonate an administrator. I have removed the subst'd userbox from his signature and the top four misleading userboxes on his userpage. --MuZemike 23:31, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Update! They have released a statement at User talk:PoppingCorns. I think this is resolved. Rjd0060 (talk) 00:59, 20 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Regarding the comment by Beeblebrox on the editor's talk page, it looks to me like this editor simply copy-pasted a bunch of userboxes from some admin's user page -- all those userboxes showed up at the same moment. Even so, past experience says an editor who behaves this erratically is destined to be indef'ed within the very near future. Looie496 (talk) 01:19, 20 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Since they included when he was made an admin, it was easy to determine that he copied the page from Nightscream. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 05:07, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Especially since one of PC's userboxes said to contact him by "Leave a message here". Nyttend (talk) 13:52, 20 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Hmm the editor concerned apparently inherited the account with their laptop (with the blessing of the former owner but still....) Nil Einne (talk) 17:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * He reminds me of CrustyPores = LustyRoars, bless him. Just sayin' <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> Sean.hoyland  - talk 18:26, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you know, he does me as well. As do the other new accounts on that IP  - User:StrikingSimilarity and User:ShanklyMyDear User:Bonfondles and User:RugitVigoureux --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:40, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Snow closure?
Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Rollbacker_and_Reviewer_Cabal seems to be an obvious snowball closure. Any admin have the balls to close this thing? Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 15:24, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Deleted per WP:SNOW. <font face="century gothic" color="#0E6E2D">Kim Dent-Brown  <font face="century gothic" size="1" color="#0E6E2D">(Talk)  17:31, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Falun Gong 2 closed
An arbitration case regarding Falun Gong has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:
 * 1) Homunculus is banned from editing and/or discussing topics related to the Falun Gong movement and/or the persecution thereof, broadly construed, across all namespaces, for a period of one year.
 * 2) Ohconfucius is indefinitely banned from editing and/or discussing topics related to the Falun Gong movement and/or the persecution thereof, broadly construed, across all namespaces.
 * 3) At the discretion of any uninvolved administrator, editors may be placed on mandated external review for all articles relating to the Falun Gong movement and/or the persecution thereof, broadly construed. Editors on mandated external review must observe the following restrictions on editing within the designated subject area:
 * 4) Any major edit (defined as any edit that goes beyond simple and uncontroversial spelling, grammatical, and/or stylistic corrections to article content) must be proposed on the article's talk page. This proposal must be discussed by interested editors until a consensus to make the edit is formed.
 * 5) Once consensus has been reached in support of the edit, the proposal must be reviewed by an uninvolved editor for neutrality and verifiability of the information presented.
 * 6) When approval is received from the uninvolved editor, the editor subject to mandated external review may make the edit to the article. Violations of these restrictions may be reported to Arbitration Enforcement.
 * 7) Upon the expiry of the applicable ban, Homunculus is subject to mandated external review as outlined in remedy 4, with respect to articles relating to the Falun Gong movement and/or the persecution thereof, broadly construed.
 * 8) Should the applicable ban be lifted, Ohconfucius is subject to mandated external review as outlined in remedy 4, with respect to articles relating to the Falun Gong movement and/or the persecution thereof, broadly construed.
 * 9) Colipon is subject to mandated external review as outlined in remedy 4, with respect to articles relating to the Falun Gong movement and/or the persecution thereof, broadly construed.

For the Arbitration Committee, Alexandr Dmitri (talk) 14:41, 21 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Discuss this

Requests_for_permissions/Confirmed
Take a look at ongoing thread which may require attention on poor judgement and very bad adminship of User:GB_fan. Thanks! Olenglishaway (talk) 16:56, 21 July 2012 (UTC)


 * GB fan should have checked that User:OlEnglish had made the edit supposedly confirming the alt account, but since I've already blocked User:Olenglishaway I don't think there is really anything to see here. SmartSE (talk) 17:08, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * And I just hardened the block. T. Canens (talk) 17:11, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah yeah - thanks for that! SmartSE (talk) 17:13, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:PERM/C request. (NAC) ⇒ T A  P  17:16, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I made a mistake. GB fan 17:17, 21 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah, Thanks for blocking as I had already requested a harder block.But, My point is that I had played with system to insure that All admin task is correctly done.It's all safe now because it was a mock drill.But, what if a real vandal just impersonated another senior contributor and passed safely through confirmed rights and vandalized massively? What if same thing happens at rollback rights or any other flags? What about massive vandalism via Huggle? It would be damn harder to revert all those edits.I'm sure that You have learned a lesson to double check every request.Thanks.59.161.16.210 (talk) 17:22, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Given the minimal privileges that come with Confirmed status, this is just a silly waste of admin time. Looie496 (talk) 17:24, 21 July 2012 (UTC)


 * For the record, that was definitely not me. But I have strong suspicions on who it might have been. -- &oelig; &trade; 17:23, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Think about what if vandal was able to pass through rollback just like this? 59.161.16.210 (talk) 17:27, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Think about WP:Block evasion max.. you only had 1 month to do.. now your main account can be blocked indefinitely, nice going. -- &oelig; &trade; 17:39, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Somce this IP has admitted to being the engineer of this " breaching experiment" I have blocked it as well Wikipedia is not a toy and it is almost certain this is some sort of returning blocked user or troll. I think we have wasted enough time on their games. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:37, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I started a SPI before the block on Maxviwe. See Sockpuppet investigations/Maxviwe. Could be useful. Thanks! ⇒ T A  P  17:45, 21 July 2012 (UTC)


 * ✅ by CheckUser; Sockpuppet investigations/Maxviwe. ⇒ T A  P  18:08, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You mean ? T. Canens (talk) 18:09, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * yep. ⇒ T A  P  18:11, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Fæ closed
An arbitration case regarding User:Fæ has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:
 * 1) Fæ is admonished for making personal attacks and making ad hominem attacks on others based on perceived affiliation.
 * 2) Fæ is hereby limited to one account, and expressly denied the option of a fresh WP:CLEANSTART. Should Fæ wish to change the name of the one account he is allowed to use, he must receive prior permission from the Arbitration Committee before editing under any other username. Fæ must provide a list of all accounts they have controlled to the Committee, with any objections to making the accounts publicly listed. The Committee will then advise Fæ of whether they will need to list the objected to account(s) publicly.
 * 3) As Fæ likely would have had his administrator status revoked as a result of this case, his resignation of tools is considered as "under controversial circumstances", and they cannot get the tools back without first standing for a fresh request for adminship. Should they run for RfA again, they must publicly link to the statement on their user page announcing the accounts they have used previously.
 * 4) For numerous violations of Wikipedia's norms and policies, Fæ is indefinitely banned from the English Language Wikipedia. He may request reconsideration of the ban six months after the enactment of this remedy, and every six months thereafter.
 * 5) For creating a page on an external webpage designed to harass another user, Michaeldsuarez is banned indefinitely from the English language Wikipedia. They may appeal this ban one year after its enactment.
 * 6) Delicious carbuncle is severely admonished for posting another editor's non-disclosed private information on an external website and warned that should they do so again, they will face sanctions, up to and including an indefinite site ban from Wikipedia.

For the Arbitration Committee, Lord Roem (talk) 22:34, 21 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Discuss this

MPK Engin­eering
For some reasons the non-existing page MPK Engin­eering is restricted for administrators only. As an engineering subsidiary of Itera, I would like to redirect this page to the Itera article. Thank you. Beagel (talk) 19:34, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That's very odd. As far as I can see, the page has never existed, nor been protected.  Still, I have created it. Black Kite (talk) 19:40, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Probably the title blacklist. <b style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</b> 21:50, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Unless I've forgotten how my regex tester works, it doesn't match anything on the blacklist. --Carnildo (talk) 23:47, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

NewtonGeek - Arbcom block
<div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color: #edeaff; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">
 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I posted this elsewhere to allow Arbcom the opportunity to respond. I didn't expect a response and didn't get one, so here we are, as I planned to do anyways.

There was a discussion of privacy going on at the Fae case and I thought the parallels were interesting in relation to NewtonGeek's block. Of course, at least some of NG's privacy was already given away by Secretlondon way back when at the Factseducado SPI event. Now, it can't be confirmed whether the bureaucrat NG was in contact with was Secretlondon (unless Secretlondon would like to confirm it), but it can be highly assumed. Especially considering that, when asked by the bureaucrat whether certain information could be revealed in the SPI, NG said no, but then suddenly Secretlondon is at the SPI revealing said info anyways. Nice bureaucrats we have here.

Onto the current events regarding NG. It seems that because of the past information leak regarding NG and Factseducado, members of Wikipediocracy found out the real identity of NG and Factseducado (with later repeated leaking of information thanks to Jayen and DracoEssentialis not helping, though Elen fixed the leak Jayen had purposefully made). Around the same time frame as NG leaving Wikipediocracy, spam emails started arriving, computer viruses, and worse computer issues began happening, not to mention continued discussion on Wikipediocracy about NG's real identity and harassing comments. Thus, for the past few weeks, NG has been in email contact with Arbcom about the issues in relation to WO members and the continued referencing of personal information on Wikipediocracy (mostly because of Kohs and HRIP7).

Now, as for the block. The reasons are interesting. Trolling is the main one given, primarily because NG was advised to stop commenting on the Fae case, considering the involvement of certain Wikipediocracy members that then have a negative involvement with NG. But NG didn't stop commenting and NG didn't have to. NG had also found out a significant amount of information in relation to the harassment of Fae, including WO users looking for things to mock him for from his 1990's histories and the doxing of any account revealed to be related to him (which is likely why he doesn't want to reveal certain accounts publicly). There's no rule that NG had to stop being involved anyways without being ordered to and Arbcom could have quite easily just kicked NG specifically out of the talk page if they wanted to. Instead, they indefinitely blocked NG. Now, ignoring the block reason and all the stuff before it became an Arbcom block, that's all a sideshow, why exactly was NG blocked? Because "trolling" definitely doesn't fall under Arbcom block standards. I'm sure someone will bring up checkuser data, as was commented on at the ANI discussion. But this must be wrong! Because the results of a checkuser are already well known, in fact, that is related to the private information that was leaked. The relationship between NewtonGeek and Factseducado are well, well known and were already discussed far in the past. So what checkuser data could there possibly be? If there was socking issues, that would have been pointed out, but it wasn't.

So, what exactly is the background for such a block? "Trolling and competency"? As has been pointed out by multiple users, NG was one of the most coherent commenters on this talk page, making very pointed and accurate comments. and being a rather good help to revealing the harassment campaign against Fae. And, regardless, neither of the listed reasons fall under an Arbcom block at all, so it should be up to the community on whether the block is kept. So what really is going on here? Silver seren C 01:02, 22 July 2012 (UTC)


 * According to Roger Davis' block rationale. It's an ArbCom block "based in part on Checkuser data". I'd suggest that you take this up with Roger. Nick-D (talk) 01:10, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * But the checkuser data is already known. From the last checkuser. The relationship between NewtonGeek and Factseducado was already explained, look at NG's block log. And if there was a sockpuppet issue, then that should have been stated. What other kind of checkuser data could there possibly be? Silver  seren C 01:13, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I see that this has also been discussed, in considerable depth, at WP:ANI. I'm not sure what you're hoping to achieve by also raising it here now that thread as been closed. Nick-D (talk) 01:15, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The discussion on ANI didn't discuss it as an Arbcom block, because that was only enacted at the end, with no true reason why. There's no evidence for why a checkuser would reveal anything. Silver  seren C 01:20, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That isn't my reading of the thread. Your claim at the start of this thread that ArbCom didn't engage in that discussion is baseless - I see that several arbitrators commented there, and that there was also discussion of the block on the editor's talk page. There was also general (though not universal) support for the block from the editors who commented at ANI, so the community has in fact decided to uphold the block (not that this actually matters given that its an ArbCom block, and so would need to be appealed through ArbCom's procedures). This seems to be a case where WP:STICK and WP:WALK applies. Nick-D (talk) 01:32, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * While the block by Risker was not in line with policy, the block by Roger (given the nature of ArbCom) was in line with policy. Is this block final? I'm not terribly familiar with how ArbCom works. My impression would be that if you have a question for ArbCom, you would raise it on a page related to them, and if you can't find a satisfactory answer there, you might take it to Jimbo or WMF, if it is worth pursuing to that point. Considering that ArbCom has information we do not, I cannot second-guess their rationale and have to take it on face value that it was a proper block. If ArbCom at some point is found to be genuinely acting in bad faith, then we have a problem, but at present, their assertion of a block is sufficient for me to consider it a valid action. -- Avanu (talk) 01:43, 22 July 2012 (UTC)


 * You must count differently than me, I see far more people opposing the block than supporting it. So, where would be the place to appeal this then? The Amendments page? Silver  seren C 01:37, 22 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

<div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color: #edeaff; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">
 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WT:AC doesn't appear to be for that. Where's the proper place to discuss this? Silver seren C 01:43, 22 July 2012 (UTC)


 * NewtonGeek is presumably an adult, therefore he can handle his appeals on his own, and I believe Risker or others have noted that they and he have been in e-mail communication regarding this. So, perhaps it'd be better all around if you find another hobby.  No one here has appointed you some sort of wiki-public defender. Tarc (talk) 01:50, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I suppose I am more or less NewtonGeek's appointed appealer anyways, for the mere fact that Arbcom is purposefully not responding to him or explaining why he was blocked beyond "trolling". Of course, there were only 2 to three responses from Arbcom anyways, keeping in track with their usual method of blocking under "Arbcom block" and then not responding to emails about it. I'll just go to WT:AC for now and wherever else is necessary after that. Silver  seren C 01:54, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * (ec) On further reflection, if you really want a full appeal, possibly an amendment/clarification/arbitration request. But I warn you that this is just going to cause drama, and your request will probably be declined. I accept no responsibility for any consequences if you go this route. WP:STICK. I endorse Tarc's comments above, as well. --Rschen7754 01:51, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but no, i'm not going to sit by and allow a user to be wrongfully blocked without even a proper explanation just because we're all supposed to be afraid of Arbcom and not question them. Silver  seren C 01:55, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Based on the discussions at WT:AC/N, I don't think that many people feel that ArbCom can't be questioned ;) Nick-D (talk) 01:58, 22 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Leonid Michelson
I noticed that significant part of Leonid Michelson article is copy-pasted from rumafia. com / person. php?id = 69 (the url should be without spaces). However, I was not able to add this link to the maintenance tag as this site is blacklisted. Beagel (talk) 10:18, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Leave it out of the space on the tag for it, go back and edit the tag to add it just as plain text. Or put the info on the talkpage, but put the url on as plain text as you have done here. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:01, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

User Yehuda Falk
An IP added a deceased notice to Falk's user page. The IP then requested semi-protection of the page. I removed the deceased notice and declined the request per WP:DWG.

My concern is whether more needs to be done to find out if the user in fact died. He didn't edit very much, nor has he edited since February 2012, so it's unlikely anyone here knows him. Should we just wait to see if better confirmation is forthcoming (from his family or colleagues)? (I will continue to monitor his user page.)--Bbb23 (talk) 18:15, 22 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Of course whenever this happens we all hope it is not true. The crux of the issue, as with anything alse here, is verification. A claim from an IP is not considered verification. He used his real name and identified his places of residence and employment so there should be an obituary forthcoming if he has indeed died. Unless and until we have such verification there shold be no tagging or administrative action taken. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:51, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Please watchlist WP:ERRORS
Admins: I just got a note on my talk page that response time at WP:ERRORS has been slow. That page exists to correct mistakes on our welcome mat. Please watchlist WP:ERRORS and help us respond quickly. Thanks.--Chaser (talk) 18:28, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Wrong Name in Biography : Amar Mitra
The wikipedia article on Amar Mitra is on a separate person named Amar Mitra Peddireddy. Amar Mitra is a reputed writer in Bengali and a Sahitya Akademy award winner.

Due to this problem of linking, the link Amar Mitra in List of Sahitya Akademy Winners in Bengali opens up with the Biographical details of Amar Mitra Peddireddy

Please help — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.163.17.114 (talk) 09:08, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I fixed the references, now you can start the article about the writer.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:37, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Heading Ted Patrick and Heading Deprograming
I believe that parties have been changing the information about Ted Patrick and Deprogramming to portray Patrick and the process in a negative light. This has been happening over time and if you search under those heading and read them, I think you may be able to conclude why. There were some excellent links under Ted Patrick's name regarding testimony he'd given to public inquires on cults and some very good newspaper clippings that portrayed him in a more positive light. There're gone and a lot of negativity is creeping in. If Patrick were bad how come hundreds of parents hired him? Someone is distorting history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephennorth (talk • contribs) 21:01, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Insofar as this request concerns the article it does not seem to involve anything that requires the intervention of administrators, but rather the article's content, and is therefore outside the scope of this noticeboard. For general advice that may apply, see WP:BLP, WP:NPOV and, for how to address any disagreements about the content, WP:DR.   Sandstein   21:39, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Resurgence of WP:Non-free content review
This review process about non-free content, after slow traffic and disastrous MFD, has been picked up again and needs more administrators if help is wanted. Fortunately, it is becoming busy with editors, and I think I want some reviews to be resolved once and for all... appropiately. --George Ho (talk) 00:42, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Site errors in middle of move
I had just started moving Syrian uprising (2011–present) to Syrian Civil War (2011–present) as per the consensus on the talkpage - after about 4 minutes of "waiting", I got a Wikimedia error ... now I'm not even sure this will post. Obviously, I've been unable to fix the additional tasks (double redirects, formally closing the RM discussion) because I'm now getting more site failures ... can anyone finish it off who is not getting these errors? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:00, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Couldn't find the RM to close it, but I fixed the double redirects and posted a message at the talk page pointing people to this section of WP:AN so they understand what's going on. Nyttend (talk) 11:31, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the RM was Talk:Syrian_Civil_War_(2011%E2%80%93present) EatsShootsAndLeaves (talk) 15:54, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Did you mean to leave "(2011–present)" in the title? The proposal was simply for Syrian Civil War and I can't see anyone in the whole discussion mentioning "Syrian Civil War (2011–present)" as an option. Jenks24 (talk) 16:15, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I see a couple of references in the discussion adding it to the title, and a strong similar/related argument at the very bottom of the talk page <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda 16:21, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Just read over it again. Could you point out any comments that mention it besides Master&Expert at the bottom. In any case, if people were advocating for "(2011–present)", their votes should have been given very little weight per WP:PRECISION. Jenks24 (talk) 17:07, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to complicate this further :-) shouldnt' that be Syrian civil war, lower-caps, as with Libyan civil war and per WP:CAPS? I don't see the point in adding the parenthesis, as there is no other Syrian civil war that needs disambiguating.  Sandstein   21:43, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No, unless you first get consensus to move the long-established American Civil War, Irish Civil War, and English Civil War. Nyttend (talk) 01:31, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps these are capitalized because they are long-standing appellations and have thus become proper nouns? That's probably not the case with these newer civil wars.  Sandstein   06:06, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, my understanding is that it would be lowercase until the war is finished and Syrian Civil War becomes the official (or unofficial) name of the event. Until then, Syrian civil war is descriptive, not nominative, and is therefore probably more accurate. That's just my opinion though, not really based on much of anything. &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Son of the Defender  10:16, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

op5 Monitor salted?
Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/op5_Monitor appears to be salted. Cannot find any record at AfD. This iteration of the article appears to be ok, albeit a stub. Help please?  David_FLXD  (Talk) Review me 05:44, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It was salted after several speedy deletions for being blatant advertising (G11). These were all in 2008, so I'm inclined to unsalt it, but it's very late in the US so I'm going to go to bed instead of using the tools and not seeing something important. Keilana&#124;Parlez ici 05:56, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * See its log. I wouldn't be open to unsalting randomly, but since there's an AFC ready to go, I've removed all protection.  Nyttend (talk) 21:44, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Nyttend. I will go ahead and create it, and then keep an eye on it just in case this is the thin end of a wedge!  David_FLXD  (Talk) Review me 11:41, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Pagemove
This page-move request has been open 15 days and now has a consensus to proceed. Anyone wanna take care of it? Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 19:00, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Last time I looked the queue for requested moves was over 200 ... any reason why this one is more important than the others that it needs a rush? <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda 19:28, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ Secretlondon (talk) 22:03, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * But yes there were others ahead of it, but it looked simple. Secretlondon (talk) 22:10, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Religious discrimination issue
Dear administrators:

I have come to this forum in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines. The Dispute Resolution Noticeboard directed me here because my complaint is about another user's conduct.

To be brief: I have been participating in the User Talk page of the Intelligent Design article in recent weeks in an attempt to improve the text, and I observed the following posted by Raeky in an exchange regarding peer-reviewed sources:

"The first one, Kuhn 'Dissecting Darwinism', the front page of Baylor University states 'A top Texas Christian University.' If this publication by that university is properly peer reviewed I'd eat a copy of it."

I informed Raeky that this is a clear violation of policy against non-discrimination, and gave him the link to the policy. Baylor is a nationally accredited university, and as another user pointed out, the publication in question is peer-reviewed, although we don't know yet if the individual article in question was or was not. The fact that the university has a confessional status and is Christian in its self-identity is no reason to discard a source. If a user were to write that a nationally accredited university's secular nature disqualified its science, it would not be tolerated either.

Raeky reaffirmed his open discrimination against Baylor for being Christian in his response: "There's no reason to retract, the first is a journal from a Christian school, that right there calls into doubt it's scientific status, then the content of the article calls into doubt their standards."

Moreover, he also expressed his contempt for the non-discrimination policy, falsely claiming it isn't a policy: "Please note that that is not a policy, but an essay, and a failed essay at that, so it carries with it almost no power..." (I retract this statement about the falsehood of his claim -- in my rush to deal with this I did not see that it is not a policy --MatthewCHoffman (talk) 18:31, 23 July 2012 (UTC))

Raeky has repeatedly refused to retract or delete his statement. Moreover, not a single objection, other than mine, has been registered against his openly discriminatory statements, which indicates to me that the users who edit this article do not take this policy seriously and have motivations other than objectivity in editing this article. I respectfully request enforcement of the non-discrimination policy. Thank you. --MatthewCHoffman (talk) 16:19, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * IMHO this is not a case of religious discrimination, and there is no question about the formal status of Baylor University. The question seems to be more "philosophical".  Christian Faith-based institutions already have a particular bias towards creation a la Genesis.  Their in-house journals would be forced to continue the creation story, and not permit Intelligent Design/evolution on the whole.  As such, the question of the reliability of the source comes into play when trying to use it - how scientific is it if it must conform to faith-based teachings? <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  16:27, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * (e-c) First, I believe the editor who started this thread should perhaps know that this material more reasonabaly would have been placed at WP:ANI rather than here, as it is about a specific incident. Secondly, it is worth noting that the Kuhn "paper" mentioned above is, as per recent discussion at Talk:Intelligent design, an editorial in the publication. As is already said on the talk page in question, editorials are in general not subject to peer review, so the claim that it appears in a peer-reviewed journal is misleading. I do agree that some of Raeky's comments are less than optimum, but I also note that the editor above seems to be actively misrepresenting things himself. Specifically, Discrimination is, as per the template at the top of that page, an essay, and, as per the top template on that page, "Essays are not wikipedia policies," and is even marked in the second template on that page as a failed proposal. Therefore, there is no policy to enforce. I respectfully urge the editor who started this thread to familiarize himself a bit better with wikipedia's policies and guidelines as per WP:PG before filing such comments, on the wrong page, again. John Carter (talk)
 * Religious discrimination isn't OK, regardless of whether the page in question is an "essay", "guideline", or "policy". I wouldn't dismiss the original poster's concern on those extremely narrow and technical grounds. That said, I don't think this is really an issue of religious discrimination. On the one hand, the focus of the talk-page discussion is off-base. Baylor is a reputable university, and I don't think that its Christian affiliation is a rationale for discounting scholarly work published by its faculty. It's not really productive to focus on Baylor's religious affiliation. The focus should be on the source itself, which presents a number of red flags discussed (appropriately) on the talk page. MastCell Talk 16:47, 23 July 2012 (UTC)


 * In this instance the fact that it's an institution describing itself as Christian is irrelevant, we've discussed the paper extensively before and found secondary sources commenting on it, as well as noting that the paper in question wasn't peer reviewed science. The user name Matthew Hoffman also sounds familiar from the topic area, but that may be a coincidence. On a broader aspect, Christian affiliations can be a red flag, as in the Oral Roberts University medical school which the BBC's Mark Mardell called into question.. That may be unfair to ORU, another more blatant example which springs to mind is the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary flood controversy where ID wasn't YEC enough. . . dave souza, talk 18:03, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, the Oral Roberts medical school closed in the 1980s and never really participated in the scientific or scholarly communities. Baylor is well-established, and researchers there do excellent mainstream scientific work, collaborate with scientists elsewhere, receive NIH funding, publish in reputable journals, etc. It's a typical large academic medical center, and not in any way the same kettle of fish as Oral Roberts University or a theological seminary. Contrarians or people with odd, unscientific ideas can be found in virtually every reputable academic institution, but that's not unique to Baylor nor, as best I can tell, a product of its institutional religious affiliation. MastCell Talk 18:21, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I did err in my statement that the policy is clearly-defined (and I have stated my retraction in the original, see above -- I missed the statement at the top in my rush to deal with this), although I must say that if Wikipedia really doesn't regard this as bias then I have no place here, and neither does anyone else with integrity. One could claim that we shouldn't trust secular institutions either because they tend to have a bias against any conclusion that could be helpful to religion.

What I would like to know is: does Wikipedia regard it as acceptable for users to disqualify a publication because of the confessional status of the institution with which it is affiliated, even when it is a nationally accredited institution? Is this not evidence of serious bias, or is this kind of talk permitted on the talk pages? --MatthewCHoffman (talk) 18:31, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * In this instance Baylor medical school published an anti-evolution opinion piece by a rather eccentric surgeon, and ID proponents quickly claimed it as peer-reviewed proof of ID pseudoscience. Rogue papers slipped through without adequate peer review process do occur in controversial areas, as in the Sternberg peer review controversy. There have also been instances of Bible colleges requiring pseudoscience as an article of faith, it was reasonable of an editor to question this but in this instance everyone can be assured that Baylor has a sound reputation for good quality peer reviewed science. If the confessional status of an institution requires all its staff to reiterate YEC beliefs, as in the Dembski affair, then its publications would not be reliable sources on evolution or on geology, though they could be reliable primary sources of YEC views. . . dave souza, talk 18:45, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) @MatthewCHoffman: You have your answer; you're correct that the paper shouldn't be disqualified on the basis of Baylor's institutional religious affiliation. At the same time, people have identified numerous concerns about the paper that have nothing to do with Baylor per se, and the most productive approach going forward is probably to engage those concerns at Talk:Intelligent design. MastCell Talk 18:48, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * One could claim that we shouldn't trust secular institutions either because they tend to have a bias against any conclusion that could be helpful to religion - That is simply a plain wrong argument. "Secular" means "not affiliated with (any particular) religion". It does not mean "opposed to religion". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:28, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually "secular" means "not religious in nature", it has nothing to do with not being connected to specific dominations, nor does it carry the connotation of "anti-religious". Secular institutions are non-religious institutions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:04, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This is just pettiness. The lack of a religious confession can be a result of anti-religious sentiment. That is all I meant. I live in Mexico, where terms similar to "secular" ("laicista," and the related "laicismo") are used often in an anti-religious way. Besides, there are no explicitly anti-religious universities, but many secular ones seem to have a a bias against western forms of theism. --MatthewCHoffman (talk) 05:31, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This is just pettiness. No, this is using words to mean what they mean, not what one would like them to mean. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:47, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Affirming the consequent? Good universities educate students. This will necessarily result in a critical questioning of the more stupid forms of literal interpretations of religions. But that is not a sign of bias, its a natural outcome of teaching people to think and question - the core purpose of any educational institution, religious or secular. Most secular universities do e.g. have departments of theology or even divinity. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:24, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Still haven't really been "officially" notified of this yet, Matthew edited my user page not my talk page with the notice but that was apparently well after the topic was started. My point I was trying to make, hopefully it was clear, is that for a scientific source a source from a professed christian organization may not be the best source. I said this mostly after reading the article in the Baylor journal, which was just basically the same old ID arguments, so I called the journal into question, if they'd allow that in there, even as a review article. Sure Baylor makes scientific contributions and publishes in real journals. But that doesn't mean we accept anything they say as scientific truth or that we don't need to take closer look at some of their publications when used for making scientific claims. As was pointed out by numerous editors at the ID article that these sources are not peer reviewed, and I don't think it's controversial to state that publications from a professed christian school that makes pseudoscientific claims in those publications need to be carefully checked and weighed before you use them in a scientific article or to make a scientific claim. — raeky  t  18:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * As indicated above, it's unfortunate that this particular publication reflects badly on an otherwise reputable publisher. Your questioning of the source was entirely reasonable, and your opinion is supported by the expert views of Jerry Coyne who described the paper as "an embarrassment to the author, to the journal, and to the field of medicine as a whole. I call on the journal to retract this paper, for if it doesn’t, then the Proceedings of the Baylor University Medical Center will be forever tarred as a vehicle for creationist nonsense." . .  dave souza, talk 19:11, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Now if only we could get as much editorial effort devoted to the also Baylor-related question of &hellip;. &#9786; Uncle G (talk) 19:17, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Baylor is not at the level of the other institutions mentioned. It's just not true that because a publication publishes once an anti-evolution article as an editorial, it condemns everything else they may publish, and JC was presumably speaking as a participant in an argument; certainly what he said is hyperbole.  Good and sensible people have believed in ID. They're in my personal opinion objectively wrong, but they can't be treated as evil or ill-intentioned.  Some outside Wikipedia do, and they do not in my opinion help the cause of science. Rather they just reinforce each other and convince the ill-informed that evolutionists are insufficiently reasonable to be taken seriously.  DGG ( talk ) 03:04, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * DGG, I can't comment on the goodness or sensibility of people who believe in ID, but the claim is that ID is science and the Proceedings is presented as a scientific journal, not a faith based publication. As the Kitzmiller conclusion states, "while ID arguments may be true, a proposition on which the Court takes no position, ID is not science."
 * It was entirely appropriate for an editor to question the suitability of this source for a scientific claim: Baylor Medical School had in this instance published unscientific speculation. Curious wording "that evolutionists are insufficiently reasonable", who are these "evolutionists" you seem to be disparaging? . . dave souza, talk 05:52, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think DGG is disparaging anyone. He's just saying that overly strident arguments against intelligent design can backfire by making their authors seem shrill and unreasonable. In real life, as on Wikipedia, people often judge the correctness of an argument by the superficial civility of its proponents rather than by its objective merit. That's one reason why counterfactual movements like AIDS denialism, climate change "skepticism", vaccine paranoia, and intelligent design are so persistent. Such is life. MastCell Talk 16:18, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Funny, I thought this page was for resolving issues over the application of Wikipedia policy, not opining about the subject matter of an article. Your personal opinions about ID, which have no authority in and of themselves, are not relevant to the article, and especially not to my point. My point was about disqualifying a source because it is published by a nationally accredited confessional university that self-identifies as Christian, simply because it is Christian. That was my only question. Yet we see all of this open bashing of ID. Not all scientists agree about ID being non-science, although a majority certainly reject it. The ID article should indicate the views of the majority among scientists, and not give undue weight to minority positions, but it should present the subject matter accurately and not be an editorial for or against ID. Can we at least establish that? --MatthewCHoffman (talk) 17:04, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a bit unclear whom you are replying to. Anyways, given that in the concrete case the source was an editorial, neither peer-reviewed nor a reliable source for anything but the author's opinion, is there anything left to clarify? The source is bad - not because Baylor is a Christian university, but because its published as a non-reviewed opinion piece by a non-expert. This board does not make policy, nor sanction opinions, even if mistaken. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:13, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I think it has been well established that ID comes firmly under the Fringe theories guideline:


 * Wikipedia summarizes significant opinions, with representation in proportion to their prominence. A Wikipedia article about a fringe theory should not make it appear more notable than it is. Claims must be based upon independent reliable sources. An idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea, and reliable sources must be cited that affirm the relationship of the marginal idea to the mainstream idea in a serious and substantial manner.

AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:09, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I need to clarify & expand my comment. ID may be a fringe opinion, but Christianity is not. There have frequently been arguments that no Christian source can be a reliable source about the New Testament. This has also been used even for other less central subjects in which a Christian may be interested that relate in some way to religion. And it has also been used in--in the discussion above and elsewhere --to say that nothing in a publication from a college affiliated with Christianity is a RS for anything   which relates in some manner to religion. Such claims about other religions are rarer, because they could easily be  interpreted as one of the taboo anti-'s, but I've seen them about both Islam and Judaism, and the various branches of each. To put this is perspective,  in some religions believers hold the exact inverse, that unless on is a believer in  the religion, one can not be a RS about it. I consider all versions of this to be either examples of bigotry, or the self-defensive fear that one's opinions will not hold up to logical neutral argument.   DGG ( talk ) 20:17, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * DGG, you appear to be demanding that religious organisations be given unquestioning credence on a science topic. Organisations are entitled to hold views, but they are not entitled to obscure the overwhelming majority scientific opinion. We've been bending over backwards to give credence to Baylor's record as a university with reputable credentials in science, but looking a bit further they've had a rather chequered past record with specific regard to ID: their Michael Polanyi Center was apparently the first center at a research university exclusively dedicated to intelligent design study, though they may have had their finger burnt a bit with that. Your comments on bigotry are verging on personal attacks against other editors, please accept that logical neutral argument might not support your religious views. Of course religious colleges can have their place as sources on religion, for example the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary is no doubt well informed about theology. . . . dave souza, talk 20:54, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know about this particular Seminary, but, from my experience with some Souther Baptists, your last sentence is far from being a given. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:58, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, they really just came up because they threw out disciplined ID proponent Dembski for not toeing the YEC line: undoubtedly they'd have different theological views from evangelicals who accept modern geology. Perhaps best treated as a primary source. . . dave souza, talk 21:07, 24 July 2012 (UTC) amended 21:13, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Responding to DGG, I think I might see his point. His statement was basically that ID is a fringe theory, which I think we all agree, but that Christianity (or, for that matter, other religions) are not. Granted, I am a Christian as well, and some of you might question me on that basis as well. And, as he says, we should not discount any and all information relating to a subject which might broadly qualify as "religious" from a publication associated with a religious institution just on that basis. Christianity is one such example. Elsewhere on this page recently we have had disputes about apparently religious reference books, which some assume to be biased on that basis. Honestly, in some cases, they might be, and I hope we develop articles about the more clearly biased ones to make that easier to see. But, I do have to agree that it makes no sense to dismiss otherwise probably acceptable sources simply because of their association with an institution which is of a religious nature. Like with ID, there might be other reasons to consider them FRINGE or something similar, but that is a separate matter. But, as has been said elsewhere above, this particular source in question is an editorial in a peer-reviewed magazine, and I believe the consensus here is that the editorial in question probably does not meet RS for reasons other than pure religious discrimination, and on that basis the matter here is not actionable. SO, while I agree religious discrimination per se is a serious issue, this is not a clear example of religious discrimination, but more of WP:FRINGE and WP:WEIGHT, and actions in accord with those principles regarding this particular source is acceptable as per guidelines and policies. John Carter (talk) 21:59, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks John, well said. The point is that we have to be free to discuss and evaluate all references to meet WP:SOURCES policy. If I can illustrate the point, the Southern Baptist controversy discussed above is reported in the Florida Baptist Witness – a fascinating perspective, clearly Christian but probably a fringe view among Christians. Useful as a primary source, very questionable about geology. In contrast, I have to hand The Bible, Rocks and Time which covers the history of geology from the evangelical Calvinist viewpoint of two geologists at Calvin College – in my view, an excellent source on the history of geology, a useful source on Biblical and philosophical perspectives on the topic, to be treated with awareness that it's from one religious viewpoint. Critical assessment of sources is not religious discrimination. . . dave souza, talk 22:28, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

This discussion is too generic. If it were at WP:RSN the first response would have been to ask for the article text that is in question, and the source that is claimed to verify that text. Of course documents from a Christian university are not automatically disregarded, and the issue cannot be resolved without considering the details; that should be done on the article talk page. If there is a problem on that page which needs to be addressed at a noticeboard, the precise problem should be identified. An editor may have made an incorrect claim about a source, but the important issue is the actual text proposed for the article. Johnuniq (talk) 03:56, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, that's why this dispute sounded familiar. This paper was discussed at WP:RSN earlier this year: Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 116.  It also got a hearing at WP:FTN: Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 30.  Self-serving comments by the forum-shopping editor who filed both requests notwithstanding, the consensus in both discussions was the the article raised a number of red flags.  While it would serve as a reasonable source if we wanted to characterize the author's opinions on the topic of intelligent design and irreducible complexity, it was not held to be a particularly reliable or important source to represent widely-held views on those topics. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:55, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Deleting file redirects
Can we please call a moratorium on deleting file redirects on sight until there is an actual policy that supports this? This has been brought up several times with no progress made; admins are still doing it. If this should be done, we should have a policy that supports this. For those interested I'm hoping to start a dialog at WT:CSD. ▫  Johnny Mr Nin ja  17:48, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Who is (are?) doing the problematic deletions, and what rationale is being given? Redirects are cheap, and there is not often a good reason to clean them up.  I have, however, had files renamed without redirection on Commons per OTRS tickets expressing apparently legitimate BLP concerns. Jclemens-public (talk) 20:03, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * While I've not checked the deletion logs, I'm continually declining other people's attempts to get old filespace redirects deleted under R3 (recently created implausible redirect), and by their anger and persistence (one person is attacking WP:RFD on my talk page, for example), it's obvious that they're surprised at having these deletions declined. This is not the type of reaction that I'd be getting if most admins were declining these attempts.  Read on if you care about my analysis of the situation.  What happens is as follows: (1) Editor #1 uploads an image.  (2) Because we don't have any policy or guideline saying when a pagemove is appropriate, editor #2 comes around years after upload, doesn't like the name, and moves the file to a name that he prefers.  (3) Editor #2 observes that the oldest entry in the history of the redirect page is now just a few minutes old and thus figures that it's new, and because nobody is likely to look for the image under such an absurd and unlikely title, he tags it for speedy, either under R3 or G6 (housekeeping).  (4) I come along and decline the deletion because the filename has been a blue link for several years and because deletion would cause problems such as linkrot, as noted by WP:RFD#HARMFUL.  (5) Editor #2 begins arguing with me that the page is new or (despite my opposition to deletion) that deletion is noncontroversial, and discussion keeps going until someone is worn out.  Nyttend (talk) 02:06, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Traffic statistics quirk
If you take a look at Wikipedia's most visited pages, you'll notice Special:Export/Robert L. Bradley, Jr and Special:Export/William Kurtz Wimsatt, Jr at #5 and #7, respectively. Now, most people don't even know that Wikipedia has namespaces, let alone have knowledge of the export feature. So, what's going on? They seem like fairly ordinary and innocuous articles. Why would 58,317,471 people be interested in getting their XML files? I'm guessing that there's some sort of weird automated process going on that I'm not aware of.—Yutsi Talk/  Contributions  ( 偉特 ) 03:44, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You saw that those statistics were for December 2010, did you not? Uncle G (talk) 07:33, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * How are you able to discern that? Does 201012 translate in some number system to 2010?—Yutsi Talk/  Contributions  ( 偉特 ) 16:27, 25 July 2012 (UTC) Never mind, I figured it out. :D I'm still curious about the weird stats I noticed, though. And why don't we have an up-to-date page of article traffic statistics?—Yutsi  Talk/  Contributions  ( 偉特 ) 16:33, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Those pages are listed almost certainly because a script on somebody's website malfunction and fired 100 requests a second for them for several days in December 2010. Not sure why that page doesn't update automatically, presumably because its creator didn't make it update automatically. - Jarry1250 [Deliberation needed] 18:19, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Funny, I'd assume the servers would lock you out if you tried to request pages that fast. Someguy1221 (talk) 18:39, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm very impressed by the resilience of our servers; the Bradley page got 6.8 million hits in one day, which is 25% more than Main Page and 60% more than Special:Search got on the same page. Nyttend (talk) 02:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Criticism of Richard Dawkins
Why do we have a page for Criticism of Moses, Criticism of Jesus, Criticism of Muhammad, and etc. but any attempt to open an article with the slightest criticism toward Richard Dawkins is turned down? Why would discussions on whether or not to have a criticism section on Richard Dawkins's article -that by the way never reached consensus- can be used against creating a new article? Essentially, what policy would I be violating if I created the new page? Also, can we have a poll on Richard Dawkin's page to resolve this recurring issue once and for ever?--Kazemita1 (talk) 13:28, 25 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Adding a fourth stupid article would not be an improvement to the encyclopaedia. Formerip (talk). —Preceding undated comment added 13:30, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Fine, then let's delete them all. Why should there be double standard?--Kazemita1 (talk) 13:34, 25 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Reason why not WP:POVFORK, reason for would only probably be due to article length reasons for splitting WP:SPLIT. — raeky  t  13:36, 25 July 2012 (UTC)


 * One, in general, negative articles about Dawkins are held to a higher standard, per WP:BLP, and two - in the cases of Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad, they're sufficiently important that many artices are necessary to sufficiently cover them as encyclopaedic topics. It's possible the same isn't true of Dawkins. The correct place to discuss it is Talk:Richard Dawkins. Although I doubt Dawkins is sufficently important that a "criticism of " article is likely to be a sensible spin-out. Wily D 13:39, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You would start by adding coverage of criticism to the existing article, which if properly balanced and fairly weighted should be accepted. Then, if the criticism section(s) in the article start to get too large for the main article, a split might be reasonable. But a preemptive split will look like WP:POVFORK. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  13:42, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * (EC) I don't see this as an AN issue, but anyway regardless of the mertis of these article, they aren't particularly comparable. BLP applies to RD but not the other 3. On a related note, they are all very historical figures (well not everyone even except all of them existed) so there far more time for substanial scholarly criticism to emerge taking an overall view on the claimed history, rather then becoming a dumping ground for any minor recent flareup which tends to happen to critical artices on LPs (for that matter the BLPs) or for that matter even recently deceased people. Nil Einne (talk) 13:43, 25 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Didn't anyone know that Dawkins is the next prophet in the succession line? <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda 13:44, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Dear Monty,

Ok. I am going to add all the material I collected from the books I have read recently without the title of "Criticism". You are telling me that so long as they are from reliable sources, i.e. their author is a notable person, no one has a right to delete them, correct?--Kazemita1 (talk) 13:54, 25 July 2012 (UTC) There are criticisms throughout the article of both his philosophical views and his science. I see no need for a separate section, or article, on this. They (the criticisms) are well integrated in the current article on RD. On a side note, I have no idea what this is doing here at this noticeboard. Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:07, 25 July 2012 (UTC) (which I hadn't noticed) Kazemital created a separate article which looked to me as an attempt to get around consensus not to have a separate criticism section. I've turned it into a redirect. Now he's come here complaining while at the same time having a discussion at [{Talk:Richard Dawkins]], where he didn't bother to mention this discussion to anyone (I've done that now). I (also, but I'm rewriting this and originally wrote it before Dbrodbeck's post above) don't know what the discussion is doing here but it looks like another attempt to get around any talk page consensus. Dougweller (talk) 15:18, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * There are absolutely no circumstances under which "no one has the right to delete them", and thinking in that fashion usually means you're going to have a bad time. The content of articles is decided by consensus, it's worth reading. Wily D  13:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Kazemita1, you seem to have omitted a key portion of my response, to help I will bold it here: properly balanced and fairly weighted. That doesn't mean each and every criticism you can find in any reliable source. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  14:00, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with Monty here. The problem is a bit of a simple one. Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad were all at their time individual leaders of a large group of faith adherents. Dawkins, however, is far from being the only current leader of the New Atheism movement. While an article on Criticism of atheism, or possibly Criticism of New Atheism, is probably not unreasonable, if sources and sufficient material can be found, that is probably the primary place to put such material. I imagine most if not all of the criticism of Dawkins can be included in one of those articles, and the criticism, if any, of Dawkins in either the main article on him or in a possible spinout article should probably be basically limited to the specific theories or actions of Richard Dawkins within the New Atheism movement, or, potentially, his own individual scientific theories. But Dawkins does not even come close to the same level of prominence in New Atheism as Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad do in Judaism, Christianity and Islam respectively, and that very much calls into question the validity of any comparisons between him and them. John Carter (talk) 14:25, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, it also shouldn't be a puff piece. I saw only about three sentences in that entire article of any criticism.  Balanced doesn't mean equal amount of content for support and criticism of a subject, but it also doesn't mean suppression of legitimate criticism because someone likes the guy.  If Kazemita1 has something legitimate to add, it should be given appropriate consideration; not disregarded because we already have 3 sentences.--v/r - TP 14:41, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Userpage: User:Pepesjengglot
I deleted the original version of this page last year as a BLP attack page. I'm now thinking that may have just been bad translating/self analysis by the user. The new version is rather perplexing. See the user contrib history. I'm half inclined to delete it and half inclined to think that would be a bitey over-reaction. But on the other hand, is bite really apposite when dealing with someone who's been around for a year and contributed only to their own userspace? Views? --Dweller (talk) 10:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Can't speak of the old version but the new version looks to me just like an autobiography in both Indonesian (which I can partially understand due to some mutual intelligibility with Malay) and English. No comment on what to do with it. Nil Einne (talk) 13:50, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:NOTHERE seems appropriate. Either that or just ignore them. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 17:35, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Closing of a straw poll
Hi,

can a non involved admin please close this straw poll and decide if a consensus has been reached Talk:Rangers_F.C. this will help move this major dispute on Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 10:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Adding Quality (FL) to the Assessment table
In WikiProject_Israel, I have added the FL tag and created the categories like the FA does but when putting the class=FL in the talk page of the articles I only get ??? (like in here Talk:List of Israeli football champions) and an empty note in the FL-class category. After using the toolserver updater the FL was removed. Can an admin see what I did wrong and add FL correctly to the Assessment of WikiProject_Israel so we have it aswell. PS: I have added it here cuz I belive it might be something only an Admin can add. – HonorTheKing (talk) 13:56, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Answered at Template talk:WPBannerMeta. The page to be amended is semi-prot, so no admin is required. -- Red rose64 (talk) 16:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Proabably not the right place, but I'll say it anyway.
This article - which I do not how it was redirected, says this: List of Earth-crossing minor planets This is incorrect, as there are no minor planets crossing the Earth. It should say List of Earth-cross asteroids. I don't know how to redirect because I've been gone so long. Is this vandalism, because looking at the history nothing tells me about it. --<font color="BlueViolet">Hinata <font color="BlueViolet">talk   00:33, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * This article says, "A minor planet is an astronomical object in direct orbit around the Sun that is neither a dominant planet nor originally classified as a comet. Minor planets can be dwarf planets, asteroids, trojans, centaurs, Kuiper belt objects, and other trans-Neptunian objects." There are no dwarf planets which cross Earth's orbit, but there are many minor planets which do. Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 00:38, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Incredibly wrong. By your logic, there are many millions of them. --<font color="BlueViolet">Hinata <font color="BlueViolet">talk   00:50, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * And by your logic, the IAU is wrong. Do you have a reliable source for a competing definition? Someguy1221 (talk) 00:56, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Exactly what was it I said that was "[i]ncredibly wrong"? All of that is verifiably true. I don't like the IAU much, either, but Wikipedia (and the vast majority of the scientific community) has chosen to use their terms and definitions as standards. Unless you have a suggestion for improving the project, this entire discussion is pointless. Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 01:35, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Question regarding username block practice
A WP:BLP article of a (circa) 17-year-old that I'm watching has recently been edited by a new user account whose name matches the name of the subject of the article. The edits do not indicate to me that this is likely an attempt at impersonation; they are attempts at noting the exact year of birth (which has not been reported in reliable sources and is therefore not in the article). My question is, what is our current practice with regard to WP:IMPERSONATE? Do we routinely username-block all accounts with an username that matches that of an article subject, or only in cases where we suspect impersonation? (I'm not indicating the name of the user or the article here so as not to have to notify the user, which may confuse them if they are the article subject.)  Sandstein   21:30, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I say let another administrator handle blocking if there is to be blocking. You're far too close on this one, and would be adopting too many r&ocirc;les if you blocked the user accounts as well.  For what it's worth, the subject's precise date of birth is verifiable, and is what both of the accounts are changing it to.  See Margaret Fuhrer's profile on page 72 of the April 2012 Dance Spirit magazine.  Personally, given that neither account has been disruptive, and have actually (given what turns out to be the case) attempted to provide more information that is verifiable, I'd suggest that there's room for being nice to the article subject, here.  Uncle G (talk) 22:12, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Hm, I can't find the date of birth in the online version of the article you mention. If you have a source that contains it, can you add it to the article? I agree with the rest of what you said, but that doesn't answer my question about what our practice with respect to WP:IMPERSONATE is.  Sandstein   06:04, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Use . It has the complete page.  Or buy the magazine back issue, of course.  &#9786;  Uncle G (talk) 06:59, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, this has now allowed me to insert the sourced date of birth.  Sandstein   07:41, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not an admin but my old experience at WP:BLPN is if someone said they were person whoever the subject of an article (or someone else like a parent or friend) we usually just accepted what they said at face value and tried to help them as best possible without blocking them (unless they did something else to merit a block). Occasionally someone may have suggested they verify their identity but I don't think this was common, it didn't actually generally make much difference to what we could do given our requirement for sources. Although if the info wasn't that well sourced, but was sourced and the person claiming to be the subject suggested it was wrong or otherwise wanted it removed some people may have been more willing if the person verified their identity. Sometimes (well one time that I remember) we did get people apparently impersonating or trolling (e.g. they claimed something of the subject) but all evidence suggested they were lying) but generally I think it was felt unnecessary to worry too much about particularly with not that well knwon subjects. (If say Obama or Bill Gates or Britney Spears came to complain, we may be more suspicious.) AFAIK we did the same even if the person's username had part of their allegedly real name. I haven't really been involved recently but looking at BLPN, from what I can tell this still seems to be going on. Nil Einne (talk) 14:19, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You need an actual suspicion of a problem, not just a match on the name. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:18, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Judge a user not on the color of their username, but on the content of their character. -- Avanu (talk) 17:24, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It all comes down to cases. For example:  I've been dealing with Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard.   claims to be the subject and  claims to be his girlfriend.  I've not blocked them for impersonation because that would be unproductive.  (I've not blocked the both of them and Hullaballoo Wolfowitz for a nine month long edit war at Cliff Stanford, either, because I stopped the edit war, the purpose of such blocks, in another way.)  Although I don't know that they are who they claim to be, their actions are consistent with being Wikipedia novices who are who they say they are.  I'd rather that their first brush with the Wikipedia community at large, rather than just one person, not be an immediate Kafkaesque block for having the straightforwardness to state who they are. On the other hand, there are cases where the accounts behave rather differently to M. Stanford and M. Wrigley.  They are dishonest, disruptive, wikilawyering, combative, and in general just smell wrong.  Experienced Wikipedians do, as said above, judge upon behaviour, and bad behaviour does add up to an impersonation block.  Having the name of a real person is a contributory factor.  If you want another way to think of this: We don't, in practice, block solely for having the account name of a real person.  We block for doing so where it brings the impersonated person into disrepute or where our experience/information tells us that this isn't who it is claimed to be.  Witness the discussion of  at User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 110 for an example of such decision making. This is why the policy says "may".  It's a warning to the account holders that this may happen.  But it's not a requirement upon administrators.  We are expected to consider the case at hand, the circumstances and the consequences, and decide whether it's an appropriate course of action; rather than apply a rule like thoughtless robots.  I actually did this for the two accounts that are not named above.  I considered the circumstances and the consequences, came to the conclusion that these people are very likely who they claim to be and are Wikipedia novices whose interests lie in what is said about them in a biography of a living person, and decided that I wouldn't be exercising my blocking tool, and that Sandstein's exercise of the talking tool was quite the right thing to do instead. There are numerous people who straightforwardly log in under their own names here.  It's not wrong to do that, and we do not have a rule that forces us to make their lives difficult to no purpose. Uncle G (talk) 08:48, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

WP:OWN issue with Late Spring
I'm concerned about the behaviour of user User:Dylanexpert on the article Late Spring. For example, the user sent the article to the "peer review" process without the required notification on the talk page. The user also reverts any change which is not made by himself, including a reversion of removal of inappropriate fan reworking links on youtube, and a removal of addition of sourced and referenced material. Perhaps the material is not appropriate in some way, but he does not respond to my concerns on the talk page but simply reverts. I would be happy enough if he would at least justify himself, but he will not discuss it. This is not so much an edit war as a serious WP:OWN concern about this user's attitude to the article, which he seems to view as his personal thing. I have pointed him to WP:OWN article repeatedly without effect and am thus reporting it here. Thanks. JoshuSasori (talk) 01:57, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The accusations are unjustified in this case. The peer review notice appears quite clearly at the top of the talk page indicating that the peer review is now archived. It is true that I did temporarily revert the removal of the fan-reworking links, but I ultimately let the removal stand when the person objecting convinced me that the links were inappropriate. It is simply not true that I undid all changes other people have made to the article and indeed I have incorporated virtually all the suggestions made during the peer review process. I was in the very process of responding to JoshuSasori's comments on the talk page, when he posted the above, so his claim that I *refused* to debate him is simply not true. The problem is that JoshuSasori heavily edited the article on the fine Japanese writer and director Kaneto Shindo and appears obsessed by the idea of including quotes by him in the Late Spring article, whether appropriate or not. He included a long circumstantial description by Shindo of the daily working methods of Ozu and his screenwriter which may interest him (or even myself), but which I'm sure most readers will reject as padded and irrelevant detail. He included the single-sentence paragraph "Director and scriptwriter Kaneto Shindo describes it [Late Spring] as his favourite of all Ozu's films," a passage which sticks out like a sore thumb. Point 3 under Actions applicable to typical behavior relevant to WP:OWN states "An editor comments on other editors' talk pages with the purpose of discouraging them from making additional contributions." I have not discouraged but openly encouraged others to comment and contribute, including JoshuSasori, whom, if my memory serves me, I directly invited to review and comment on Late Spring. You may observe from JoshuSasori's own talk page that he can be very combative (e.g., "Re: Harakiri (1962) edit"). So this is indeed an edit war and not a case under which WP:OWN applies. Thank you kindly. Dylanexpert (talk) 03:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Reversion after failure to discuss
I do a lot of dispute resolution at 3O and DRN. All current DR forums require talk page discussions prior to requesting DR and requests are routinely rejected when they are made without prior discussion. It is not uncommon, however, to find a discussion where one editor has attempted to start discussion in good faith, with solid requests on the article talk page and, often, requests or notices on the other editor's talk page as well (I'll call that editor the "requester") but with no response of any kind from the other editor (who I'll call the "reverter"). (It's also common to find that the reverter also does not use edit summaries.) If the requesting editor can get nothing out of the reverter and cannot get DR, what are they to do? By the time a complaint at WP:EWN is appropriate, the requester is more often than not vulnerable to a WP:BOOMERANG. In many, if not most, cases page protection will not solve the problem because the problem will simply resume after the protection goes away. I made an attempt (see here and here) to modify WP:RFC to allow it to be used to try to get community input in this situation, but that attempt was reverted by a user who believes that continuing to revert after a discussion request has been made is either (I'm afraid that I cannot quite follow his logic, so I'm not quite sure which is right) itself a blocking offense which can be reported to WP:SPI WP:ANI or, alternatively, somehow immunizes the requester from accusations of edit warring. Is he right? If not, what should a requester be told to do? Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 15:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * If I'm following this correctly, and I know you said you have trouble following it yourself, so I'm not blaming you, you're asking if it is acceptable for someone to engage in reversion after a discussion request is made, right? By "discussion request," I'm assuming you mean RfC? Regarding the claim that reversion is subject to investigation at WP:SPI, frankly, I don't see that making any sense whatsoever. Regarding the contention that discussion immunizes someone from being subject to edit warring claims, I don't see that as being necessarily valid, although it might be useful to know the situation before the discussion started.
 * I know this isn't necessarily a lot of help, and I'm sorry about that, but it would really help to know some more of the relevant details. John Carter (talk) 16:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry for being somewhat obtuse. No, by "discussion request" I mean this situation, stated here in its simplest form: A makes an article edit, B reverts, A requests discussion on the talk page and drops a talkback on B's talk page, B makes no response of any kind. (A more typical situation is this: A makes an article edit, B reverts with no edit summary, A reverts with some explanation in the edit summary, B reverts with no edit summary, A reverts with an edit summary requesting discussion on the talk page and explains their edit on the talk page, B reverts with no discussion and no edit summary, A files a dispute resolution request at 3O or DRN, A's request is rejected because there's not been any talk page discussion.) Is A immune from EW'ing (presuming that B isn't reverting for a 3RR exemption reason) or does A have cause for a SPI an ANI complaint? If not, what should A be told to do? For a current example (though I don't want to focus on it) see This is PiL. Sorry about the reference to SPI; that should have been ANI, and I've fixed it above. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 16:51, 26 July 2012 (UTC) PS: I don't think that A is immune nor do I think that there is a complaint to be made to ANI, though I think that it should be a reportable offense. As it is right now, unfortunately, in light of WP:CONS I think that A is simply out of luck, he has no recourse, and his edit cannot go in. I don't think that's right or the way that it should be, but I do think that's the way it is. — TM 17:03, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No problem. Under the circumstances, it seems to me that A is, basically, screwed out of luck, as you put it. There might be reasonable cause, depending on the specific circumstances of the edit war, to maybe question whether B is trying to game the system, or might be seen as engaging in willfully disruptive editing, given the lack of communication, which could maybe give cause to raise questions here or elsewhere about that behavior. I can also see how it might be useful to add something to WP:EW to specifically cover non-communicative reversions. But, right now, things being the way they are, there is a very good chance A would be subject to sanctions of some sort, depending on the disposition of the admin in question. John Carter (talk) 17:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Anyone who refuses to engage after a reasonable request for an explanation is not acting in good faith. They should not be allowed to "win" through attrition. If they will not engage in a discussion, the other user should attempt to engage other parties in discussion so that a consensus may be reached. If the reverter doesn't deign to particpate in that discussion that is their problem, and if they keep revert warring later it will only end with blocking. However, edit warring is always the wrong thing to do. Unless you are dealing with blatant vandalism there is no "right" in an edit war, anyone who engages in one is wrong. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:48, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * A should just find someone in Category:Sensible admins, who will tell B that if they revert without discussion again, they will be blocked for disruption. Actually finding someone in Category:Sensible admins is left as an exercise for the reader. --Floquenstein&#39;s monster (talk) 18:06, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll tell you the solution I reached a long time ago. I came to the conclusion that in one-vs-one disputes, victory goes to the stubbornest party.  The only way to get anywhere against an uncooperative editor without being even more uncooperative is to convert it to an n-vs-one dispute, where the isolated editor always loses if the other editors are competent.  So, whenever I get into difficulties with an editor who won't play ball, I go straight to the appropriate WikiProject and post a message on its talk page, asking for additional eyes. Looie496 (talk) 18:54, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:09, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That was what I was trying to do with the RFC exception (not that RFC doesn't have it's own set of problems). Maybe I'll try it again, but the WikiProject idea is a good one, too. Best regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 20:26, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This is not what you were doing with the RFC exception. The language was not written like that asking for other input in a relevant wikiproject talk page; it is quite standard, and not obligatory prerequisite for initiating an and rfc.Curb Chain (talk) 06:43, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

TransporterMan, if the person files a discussion on the talk page, this makes them eligible for a DRN file. Problem solved.Curb Chain (talk) 06:27, 27 July 2012 (UTC) ::::This is not what you were doing with the RFC exception. The language was not written like that asking for other input in a relevant wikiproject talk page is quite standard and not obligatory prerequisite for initiating and rfc.Curb Chain (talk) 06:43, 27 July 2012 (UTC) And if indeed the requester is vulnerable to WP:BOOMERANG, he is probably not be being scrupulous in his editing conduct.Curb Chain (talk) 06:30, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I'm afraid it does not. The DRN instructions say, "[This] is not a place to discuss disputes that are already under discussion at other dispute resolution forums - but the issue must have been discussed extensively on a talk page - not just through edit summaries." (Emphasis added.) (Until recently it said "substantial discussion" rather than "discussed extensively", but that's the same idea.) 3O says, "Before making a request here, be sure that the issue has been thoroughly discussed on the article talk page. 3O is only for assistance in resolving disagreements that have come to a standstill." (Emphasis added.) Neither formulation would permit a single editor's talk page explanation or discussion request to be sufficient to start a case and, indeed, requests at those forums are ordinarily removed or rejected when there has been no back-and-forth discussion. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 13:24, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Persian Gulf / Arabian Gulf edits
Occasionally, someone will edit an article solely to change Persian Gulf to Arabian Gulf or vice-versa. I've read some of the controversy in various places here, but it's kind of scattered so it's unclear whether there was a clear consensus. Is there a policy as to what to do about these, if anything? I imagine that a revert will almost certainly start a (brief) edit war if the user is paying attention. Of course, it might happen anyway if anyone else is paying attention :) —&#91; Alan  M  1  (talk) &#93;— 13:37, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

User:Mnap25
This user has been frequently updating the statistics on baseball pages without bothering to update the date. This makes it harder to know when the stats in the infobox were updated and makes the articles appear more outdated than they really are. Here are this user's four most recent edits, 1, 2, 3, and 4. There are plenty of other examples of his failure to update the date. Furthermore, the issue has been mentioned on his talk page three times, but to the best of my knowledge he has made no response. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 17:04, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That has the effect of introducing errors into the text, since, for example, Harrison's record was not 42-24 as of 15 July. I would say that this isn't a big issue except for the user's apparent unwillingness to discuss; even good-faith addition of errors is problematic and needs to stop.  Accordingly, I've built off the three previous notes and left a final warning (seeing this as being akin to the various levels of vandalism warnings) that further edits of this pattern will result in a block.  Nyttend (talk) 17:46, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your intervention. AutomaticStrikeout (talk) 17:59, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

User:TheoA/Three.js
This user page contains mainspace categories that goes against WP:USERNOCAT. Because the page title ends with .js it generates the user page as a javascript page so I'm unable to edit and remove the categories. --Mika1h (talk) 16:38, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Has the thought even crossed your mind of asking them about it or at least informing them you were asking for admin intervention? Beeblebrox (talk)|
 * Who is "them"? --Mika1h (talk) 17:43, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * User:TheoA, of course. <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda 17:44, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I left a notice on the talk page. --Mika1h (talk) 17:45, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you discuss the issue with them first, before coming here so that they could fix it? AN/ANI are last resort, after you have attempted to resolve it with the user first <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  17:46, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * PS: and the last post on their talkpage was June 26. That said, they have not edited since June 19 <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  17:49, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, nevermind then, I didn't realize this was a major issue that needs discussion. P.S. Why are you all using plural form, it's confusing. --Mika1h (talk) 17:51, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * P.P.S I had left a notice on User talk:TheoA/Three.js. --Mika1h (talk) 17:52, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Always best to discuss on their usertalk, not the the subpage talk. Oh, and "they" (and therefore "their") is singular. <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  17:55, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No, "they" and "their" take plural verbs; use "he" or "she" or "s/he" or something like that if you want to have subject-verb agreement. Nyttend (talk) 04:09, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The subpage in question is the original source of an article draft (looks like it was copy/pasted to an actual article). As such, the subpage can be deleted.  Of course, I can't add the MFD tag :-)  <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  17:59, 27 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we need yet another noticeboard (WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Don't snap at me, or WP:ANDSAM?) where people can ask for simple admin help with something, without being accused of dragging someone else to AN or ANI. AN or ANI should be a last resort for conflicts, but don't land so hard on the guy for asking for simple admin help here.  He's not trying to get TheoA in trouble. When I run across article categories in userspace drafts, I usually comment them out myself, and leave a note for the editor, rather than asking the editor to do it themselves.  No discussion needed, and no editor has ever complained about this. All Mika1h is asking is an admin to do something he would usually do himself, but can't because the userspace draft is accidentally marked as a .js page. I'm sure he'll leave the explanatory note on TheoA's talk page if an admin will do the commenting out. --Floquenstein&#39;s monster (talk) 18:47, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I note that the user in question has removed the text; I think we're fine here :). I agree with Floquenstein that we need to get a lot better at assuming good faith of the people who bring issues to AN. Now, I understand why AN and ANI are places of last resort - practically-speaking, it's because they're hellish, dark, satanic mills filled with snark being used as an area denial weapon. But at least part of that stems from people telling users off for bringing other contributors to these venues - perhaps if people were nicer about it, their reason for being annoyed by it would partly solve itself? Ironholds (talk) 10:25, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

SPI Fix
I opened an SPI and right after I did it I realized that I had not opened under the sockmaster's user name but rather one of his old sockpuppets. I'm not sure if I can just move the stuff over and set the old case to 'closed' or if it even makes a difference. Can someone who understands SPI better than I please fix this if necessary? The SPI is currently listed at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Thonos but should be at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Giornorosso. Thanks! Sædon <sup style="color:#000000;">talk 08:17, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I moved it over and did a histmerge. Pretty sure it's all good now. Keilana&#124;Parlez ici 22:41, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I just saw that, thank you :). Sædon <sup style="color:#000000;">talk  22:54, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

A. B. Colton
I've currently got a text file with an article on A. B. Colton; however, I cannot create A. B. Colton. It isn't protected it appears to be on a blacklist of sorts. I also can't create User:Ryan Vesey/A. B. Colton. What is my best solution. Can an administrator make it so I can create the page? Ryan Vesey Review me!  03:22, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Note that I can't create it because colton appears at MediaWiki:Titleblacklist. Ryan Vesey Review me!  03:24, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Note that colton was added to the page by MuZemike with this edit. I left a note on his talk page. Ryan Vesey  Review me!  03:37, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Created the userspace page for you. Nyttend (talk) 04:07, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * As noted on my talk page, I removed the entry from the blacklist, as I know why I added it, and the abuse regarding that entry is no longer there. --MuZemike 07:15, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Corey Cogdell
Good morning chaps - it seems there is a bit of a kerfuffle brewing on the old social networks about this young lady and her prediliction for shooting zebras - a few extra pairs of eyes on the article might not go amiss, there's already been a couple of rather nasty comments inserted. Quintessential British Gentleman (talk) 12:27, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan
Resolved by motion at Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment that:

The India-Pakistan case is supplemented as follows: "Standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all pages related to India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, broadly construed."

For the Arbitration Committee, <b style="color:navy;">NW</b> ( Talk ) 18:24, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Discuss this

Persian Gulf / Arabian Gulf edits
Occasionally, someone will edit an article solely to change Persian Gulf to Arabian Gulf or vice-versa. I've read some of the controversy in various places here, but it's kind of scattered so it's unclear whether there was a clear consensus. Is there a policy as to what to do about these, if anything? I imagine that a revert will almost certainly start a (brief) edit war if the user is paying attention. Of course, it might happen anyway if anyone else is paying attention :) (2nd try - is this the right place?) —&#91; Alan  M  1  (talk) &#93;— 15:06, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The only relevant rule I can think of is "use common English". In this case, this would apparently imply using "Persian Gulf" or simply "the Gulf" in most situations, depending on context, as the "Arabian Gulf" usage has apparently not gained much currency outside the Arab world itself. I'm aware some editors have invested the issue with a very overblown ideological significance, spending a lot of time arguing why "Arabian Gulf" is historically wrong and evil and why its use must not only be avoided but actively deprecated, but that's really nonsensical and beside the point. What counts is just established usage in English. I don't think we've ever had any kind of formalized decision procedure over it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:21, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Our article is at Persian Gulf. Articles should link directly to the other article, and very rarely is there good reason to pipelink a proper name with another proper name. Any disputes about what to call the entity being talked about, in this case the Gulf, should be discussed at that page, and solved at that page. This isn't explicit in any policy, but seems a logical way to preserve NPOV and consistency. There is a precedent; Sea of Japan, which is called that throughout the wiki (although there is an odd clause to note it's also called the East Sea on articles specifically relating to Korea). CMD (talk) 15:33, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've just removed some pipelinks today which seemed to be pov (on another subject entirely). Piping shouldn't be done as a way to get around an article's name. Dougweller (talk) 20:39, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Redirected talk pages for deletion
I just looked at some sample NA-class articles from WP:BIO project, and they all look to me like talk pages of redirects. As far as I know, it is pointless to tag those within projects; and some I noted have improper classifications (as stubs and such). If there is a small number of articles that should be retained (and off the top of my head I cannot think of what could be classified as NA, which seems like a pointless use for a blank page classification), a deeper review may be needed, but as things stand, I'd be tempted to say that this entire category is due for a mass deletion, and we should probably look at other NA-class articles, with anything tagged as NA in the future coming up for a review for speedy deletion alert (or, if nobody can present any arguments for keeping this category, simply coming up for speedy deletion). PS. To be clear: I am not suggesting we delete the redirects, just their talk pages, which are useless and falsely inflate the article counts for WikiProjects. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 19:14, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Some projects like to keep track of redirects incase someone changes it to redirect elsewhere or incase someone puts it up for deletion. The project tags often work in conjunction with automated bots to warn the project that this has happened. As such some projects do very much rely on these even if you find them useless. I would also note NA pages can also be anything that isn't ranked by the project in question as it stands for Non-Article. For example in a project I am involved with anything that isn't an article gets tagged NA. Such as templates, images, project pages etc. -DJSasso (talk) 19:21, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The other issue is that sometimes those pages were articles at one point and did have discussions. We generally don't ever delete a talk page if the assosciated content is still here. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:30, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Eric mit 1992 Blacklight Power
A new editor, User_talk:Eric mit 1992, (125 edits) appears to be wikilawyering (just look at the last 5-6 threads) at Talk:Blacklight_Power, a company based on pseudoscience. Not sure how to proceed. Any admins or experienced editors want to have a look and provide any advice, or the best way to handle it? IRWolfie- (talk) 22:31, 30 July 2012 (UTC) Attempts to engage on the users talk page did not go well:. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:37, 30 July 2012 (UTC) The editor just got blocked for 24 hours for 9 reverts as well: Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring; the topic is under discretionary sanctions. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:33, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Alterations

 * An editor who also posted to Talk:Rangers F.C. got lost on the way to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football and thought that it was here. Uncle G (talk) 15:08, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Eyes on Syria
Could we have a few more eyes on Syria and related articles? Obviously there's quite the dispute about them at the moment in real life, and a couple of users (one whose entire talkpage just says "FREE SYRIA!" have managed to slowly edit war in their preferred infobox with no consensus on the talkpage (and most of those reverts, along with others, were without edit summaries). As well as steady admin hands, a few more opinions on talk wouldn't go amiss either. CMD (talk) 14:43, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Protected: see section "Question about protection" below. Drmies (talk) 17:11, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Sophisticated template vandalism; need admin help
<div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color: #edeaff; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">
 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.

While I was editing St. John, Indiana, someone vandalised a template that's on the page to blank the entire page. Since I was only on the page for a few minutes, it's definitely one of the template edits below, which I copied from RecentChanges:

(diff | hist). . Template:Albanians‎; 15:59. . (-33)‎ . . ‎79.160.40.10 (talk)‎ (For consistency and avoiding redirect.) (diff | hist). . Template:Sidebar‎; 15:59. . (+330)‎ . . ‎Frietjes (talk | contribs)‎ (Undid revision 505116282 by Ham Cork Fest (talk)) (diff | hist). . Template:ConvertAbbrev/ISO 3166-1/alpha-2‎; 15:59. . (+598)‎ . . ‎Ham Cork Fest (talk | contribs)‎ (new designation for Kosovo) (diff | hist). . N! Template:Db-negublp/doc‎; 15:58. . (+2,083)‎ . . ‎Mr. Stradivarius (talk | contribs)‎ (Substitute - see Template talk:Db doc#Too complicated?) (diff | hist). . Template:New York Jets roster navbox‎; 15:58. . (-24)‎ . . ‎The Writer 2.0 (talk | contribs)‎ (Otah trade voided) (diff | hist). . Template:Sidebar‎; 15:58. . (-330)‎ . . ‎Ham Cork Fest (talk | contribs)‎ (change) (diff | hist). . Template:TOC top‎; 15:58. . (-598)‎ . . ‎Frietjes (talk | contribs)‎ (Undid revision 505116024 by Ham Cork Fest (talk)) (diff | hist). . Template:NRHP style‎; 15:58. . (+574)‎ . . ‎Ham Cork Fest (talk | contribs)‎ (more parameters) (diff | hist). . Template:New York Jets roster‎; 15:57. . (+23)‎ . . ‎The Writer 2.0 (talk | contribs)‎ (Vacant) (diff | hist). . Template:Braille cell/eng&cell-id2dot-id‎; 15:57. . (+1)‎ . . ‎DePiep (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Abbr‎; 15:57. . (+427)‎ . . ‎Ham Cork Fest (talk | contribs)‎ (minor switch in coding) (diff | hist). . Template:2012 Summer Olympics men's handball game B5‎; 15:57. . (+6)‎ . . ‎Kante4 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:2012 Summer Olympics women's field hockey game A6‎; 15:57. . (+45)‎ . . ‎Kante4 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:URL‎; 15:57. . (+598)‎ . . ‎Ham Cork Fest (talk | contribs)‎ (remove excess whitespace after #titleparts) (diff | hist). . m Template:Valrep‎; 15:56. . (-40)‎ . . ‎RioHondo (talk | contribs)‎ (Renamed per Philippine LGU naming convention. See WP:MOSPHIL.) (diff | hist). . Template:Designation/colour‎; 15:56. . (+599)‎ . . ‎Ham Cork Fest (talk | contribs)‎ (change color settings) (diff | hist). . Template:New York Jets roster‎; 15:56. . (-41)‎ . . ‎The Writer 2.0 (talk | contribs)‎ (Otah trade voided) (diff | hist). . Template:Braille cell/core‎; 15:56. . (+51)‎ . . ‎DePiep (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . m Template:TOC top‎; 15:56. . (+598)‎ . . ‎Ham Cork Fest (talk | contribs)‎ (changing tr to wikitable tr, documentation modification) (diff | hist). . Template:Db-u1/log/doc‎; 15:55. . (-34)‎ . . ‎Mr. Stradivarius (talk | contribs)‎ (Remove template - doesn't look like it applies here) (diff | hist). . Template:Infobox settlement/impus‎; 15:55. . (+598)‎ . . ‎Ham Cork Fest (talk | contribs)‎ (*/ Usage */ expand usage info) (diff | hist). . Template:Braille cell/core‎; 15:55. . (+1)‎ . . ‎DePiep (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Album ratings‎; 15:55. . (+598)‎ . . ‎Ham Cork Fest (talk | contribs)‎ (add up to rev25score, per request) (diff | hist). . Template:Coat of arms‎; 15:55. . (+32)‎ . . ‎Ssolbergj (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . N! Template:Flag usage advice‎; 15:55. . (+750)‎ . . ‎Kevin McE (talk | contribs)‎ (At the moment, not proposing for use, simply for discussion at WT:Manual of Style/Icons#A related debate is raging elsewhere at this stage) (diff | hist). . Template:Braille cell/core‎; 15:55. . (+3)‎ . . ‎DePiep (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . m Template:Airlines of Bangladesh‎; 15:54. . (0)‎ . . ‎Ahnaaf (talk | contribs)‎ (Adding planned airline section) (diff | hist). . Template:Bio icon2‎; 15:54. . (+598)‎ . . ‎Ham Cork Fest (talk | contribs)‎ (#ifeq) (diff | hist). . m Template:Bio icon‎; 15:54. . (+598)‎ . . ‎Ham Cork Fest (talk | contribs)‎ (#ifeq) (diff | hist). . m Template:Airlines of Bangladesh‎; 15:54. . (+83)‎ . . ‎Ahnaaf (talk | contribs)‎ (Adding planned airline section) (diff | hist). . Template:New York Red Bulls squad‎; 15:54. . (+71)‎ . . ‎UncleTupelo1 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Redirect template‎; 15:54. . (+599)‎ . . ‎Ham Cork Fest (talk | contribs)‎ (*/ Template category */ fix small error) (diff | hist). . Template:Braille cell/core‎; 15:53. . (+1)‎ . . ‎DePiep (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Db-u1/log‎; 15:53. . (+75)‎ . . ‎Mr. Stradivarius (talk | contribs)‎ (Switch to template - see Template talk:Db doc#Too complicated?) (diff | hist). . Template:Did you know nominations/James Huckle‎; 15:53. . (+764)‎ . . ‎BlueMoonset (talk | contribs)‎ (promoted to prep 4) (diff | hist). . m Template:Arka Gdynia squad‎; 15:53. . (-531)‎ . . ‎Marekchelsea (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Did you know nominations/Schleswig horse‎; 15:53. . (+127)‎ . . ‎Montanabw (talk | contribs)‎ (Format alt 1 hook (I'm a co-nom, not a reviewer, needs a reviewer)) (diff | hist). . Template:Infobox settlement/metric‎; 15:53. . (+608)‎ . . ‎Ham Cork Fest (talk | contribs)‎ (*/ Usage */ expand section information) (diff | hist). . Template:Did you know/Preparation area 4‎; 15:53. . (+210)‎ . . ‎BlueMoonset (talk | contribs)‎ (+1) (diff | hist). . Template:Db-u1/log/doc‎; 15:53. . (-6)‎ . . ‎Mr. Stradivarius (talk | contribs)‎ (Formatting) (diff | hist). . m Template:Valenzuela City‎; 15:52. . (+49)‎ . . ‎RioHondo (talk | contribs)‎ (Renamed per Philippine LGU naming convention. See WP:MOSPHIL.) (diff | hist). . Template:Le Mans FC squad‎; 15:52. . (+14)‎ . . ‎Footballfollower89 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Braille cell/core‎; 15:52. . (+82)‎ . . ‎DePiep (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:2008 Summer Olympics men's volleyball game C2‎; 15:52. . (+56)‎ . . ‎Leesw616 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Braille cell/core‎; 15:51. . (-127)‎ . . ‎DePiep (talk | contribs)‎ (rm err check again) (diff | hist). . Template:Developments in Sri Lanka‎; 15:51. . (+3)‎ . . ‎CoolGin (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . N! Template:Db-u1/log/doc‎; 15:51. . (+1,794)‎ . . ‎Mr. Stradivarius (talk | contribs)‎ (Substitute - see Template talk:Db doc#Too complicated?) (diff | hist). . Template:2008 Summer Olympics men's volleyball game C1‎; 15:50. . (+27)‎ . . ‎Leesw616 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Did you know nominations/Schleswig horse‎; 15:50. . (+248)‎ . . ‎Montanabw (talk | contribs)‎ (Alt 1 hook) (diff | hist). . Template:Coat of arms‎; 15:50. . (+32)‎ . . ‎Ssolbergj (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . m Template:Braille cell/core‎; 15:49. . (+143)‎ . . ‎DePiep (talk | contribs)‎ (err check) (diff | hist). . Template:Zendaya‎; 15:48. . (-8)‎ . . ‎76.92.92.16 (talk)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Braille cell/testcases‎; 15:48. . (+10)‎ . . ‎DePiep (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:2012 Summer Olympics men's volleyball group A standings‎; 15:48. . (+4)‎ . . ‎Kante4 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Db-gfdl‎; 15:48. . (-23)‎ . . ‎Mr. Stradivarius (talk | contribs)‎ (Switch to template - see Template talk:Db doc#Too complicated?) (diff | hist). . Template:RT programs‎; 15:48. . (0)‎ . . ‎Yk Yk Yk (talk | contribs)‎ (update) (diff | hist). . Template:2012 Summer Olympics men's volleyball game A5‎; 15:47. . (+137)‎ . . ‎Kante4 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Braille cell/testcases‎; 15:47. . (-10)‎ . . ‎DePiep (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Db-gfdl/doc‎; 15:47. . (-5)‎ . . ‎Mr. Stradivarius (talk | contribs)‎ (Formatting) (diff | hist). . N! Template:Db-gfdl/doc‎; 15:46. . (+2,321)‎ . . ‎Mr. Stradivarius (talk | contribs)‎ (Substitute - see Template talk:Db doc#Too complicated?) (diff | hist). . m Template:RMS Titanic‎; 15:46. . (+63)‎ . . ‎MatthewHaywood (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:2012 Summer Olympics men's volleyball game A5‎; 15:46. . (+56)‎ . . ‎Kante4 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . m Template:FC Dynamo Kyiv squad‎; 15:46. . (+59)‎ . . ‎T-resh (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . m Template:Tourette syndrome‎; 15:45. . (-45)‎ . . ‎QuasyBoy (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Braille cell/core‎; 15:45. . (-8)‎ . . ‎DePiep (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . m Template:Colonial Governors of Rhode Island‎; 15:44. . (+52)‎ . . ‎Robert 68 (talk | contribs)‎ (ad german language = de:Vorlage:Gouverneure der Rhode Island Kolonie) (diff | hist). . Template:Braille cell/core‎; 15:44. . (-135)‎ . . ‎DePiep (talk | contribs)‎ (rm err check) (diff | hist). . m Template:Philippine legislative districts‎; 15:44. . (-7)‎ . . ‎RioHondo (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Zendaya‎; 15:43. . (+74)‎ . . ‎76.92.92.16 (talk)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Pittsburgh Pirates roster‎; 15:43. . (+1)‎ . . ‎75.135.68.171 (talk)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Footer Olympic Champions Judo Half Middleweight Men‎; 15:42. . (+77)‎ . . ‎Kante4 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:KidsTVBlocksUSA‎; 15:42. . (-11)‎ . . ‎72.49.35.66 (talk)‎ (ABC Kids was listed twice (once by itself only and once combined with "Disney's One Saurday Morning". Alphabetically "Toonami" should probably come before "Toonami on Kids WB".) (diff | hist) . . Template:Coat of arms‎; 15:42 . . (+24)‎ . . ‎Ssolbergj (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist) . . Template:Coat of arms‎; 15:42 . . (-127)‎ . . ‎Ssolbergj (talk | contribs)‎ (Undid revision 505114001 by Ssolbergj (talk)) (diff | hist) . . Template:Coat of arms‎; 15:41 . . (+127)‎ . . ‎Ssolbergj (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist) . . Template:Texas Rangers roster‎; 15:41 . . (-9)‎ . . ‎75.135.68.171 (talk)‎ (diff | hist) . . m Template:Philippine legislative districts‎; 15:40 . . (-101)‎ . . ‎RioHondo (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist) . . Template:Le Mans FC squad‎; 15:40 . . (+20)‎ . . ‎Footballfollower89 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist) . . Template:Db-fpcfail‎; 15:40 . . (+75)‎ . . ‎Mr. Stradivarius (talk | contribs)‎ (Switch to template - see Template talk:Db doc#Too complicated?) (diff | hist) . . Template:2012 Summer Olympics women's field hockey game A6‎; 15:39. . (+47)‎ . . ‎Kante4 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:2012 Summer Olympics men's handball group B standings‎; 15:39. . (0)‎ . . ‎130.138.227.11 (talk)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Db-fpcfail/doc‎; 15:39. . (-7)‎ . . ‎Mr. Stradivarius (talk | contribs)‎ (Formatting) (diff | hist). . Template:2012 Summer Olympics men's handball group B standings‎; 15:39. . (0)‎ . . ‎130.138.227.11 (talk)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:2012 Summer Olympics men's water polo game A6‎; 15:38. . (+108)‎ . . ‎Kante4 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . N! Template:Db-fpcfail/doc‎; 15:38. . (+2,053)‎ . . ‎Mr. Stradivarius (talk | contribs)‎ (Substitute - see Template talk:Db doc#Too complicated?) (diff | hist). . Template:Luton Town F.C. squad‎; 15:38. . (+64)‎ . . ‎Haruman215 (talk | contribs)‎ (Dean Brill) (diff | hist). . Template:The Get Up Kids‎; 15:38. . (-29)‎ . . ‎Rwiggum (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:2012 Summer Olympics men's water polo group A standings‎; 15:37. . (+4)‎ . . ‎Kante4 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Uncle Kracker‎; 15:37. . (+30)‎ . . ‎71.72.138.94 (talk)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:2012 Summer Olympics men's water polo game A6‎; 15:37. . (+111)‎ . . ‎Kante4 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Db-spamuser‎; 15:37. . (+74)‎ . . ‎Mr. Stradivarius (talk | contribs)‎ (Switch to template - see Template talk:Db doc#Too complicated?) (diff | hist). . Template:Db-spamuser/doc‎; 15:36. . (-7)‎ . . ‎Mr. Stradivarius (talk | contribs)‎ (Formatting) (diff | hist). . Template:BC Neptūnas roster‎; 15:36. . (+135)‎ . . ‎92.20.38.106 (talk)‎ (diff | hist). . N! Template:Db-spamuser/doc‎; 15:35. . (+2,022)‎ . . ‎Mr. Stradivarius (talk | contribs)‎ (Substitute - see Template talk:Db doc#Too complicated?) (diff | hist). . Template:Latest preview software release/Tribler‎; 15:34. . (-10)‎ . . ‎Skype565 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Latest stable software release/Tonido‎; 15:32. . (-2)‎ . . ‎Skype565 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Chicago Cubs roster‎; 15:32. . (+5)‎ . . ‎BravesInsider13 (talk | contribs)‎ (Braves traded Arodys Vizcaino and Jaye Chapman for Paul Maholm and Reed Johnson.) (diff | hist). . Template:Latest preview software release/Shareaza‎; 15:31. . (-2)‎ . . ‎Skype565 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:New Orleans Saints roster navbox‎; 15:31. . (-44)‎ . . ‎Eagles247 (talk | contribs)‎ (update) (diff | hist). . Template:Coal Chamber‎; 15:30. . (+20)‎ . . ‎Digital0000 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Db-hoax‎; 15:30. . (+75)‎ . . ‎Mr. Stradivarius (talk | contribs)‎ (Switch to template - see Template talk:Db doc#Too complicated?) (diff | hist). . Template:New Orleans Saints roster‎; 15:29. . (-11)‎ . . ‎Eagles247 (talk | contribs)‎ (DL Akiem Hicks activated) (diff | hist). . Template:Tekken series‎; 15:29. . (+57)‎ . . ‎Kokoro20 (talk | contribs)‎ (Undid revision 504849890 by MrWii000 (talk)) (diff | hist). . Template:2012 Summer Olympics football convenience template navbox‎; 15:29. . (+9)‎ . . ‎Lejman (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Cincinnati Bengals roster navbox‎; 15:29. . (-23)‎ . . ‎Eagles247 (talk | contribs)‎ (Clements activated) (diff | hist). . Template:Latest preview software release/Opera‎; 15:29. . (-2)‎ . . ‎Skype565 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Latest preview software release/Opera‎; 15:28. . (-82)‎ . . ‎Skype565 (talk | contribs)‎ (diff | hist). . Template:Db-g3/doc‎; 15:28. . (+77)‎ . . ‎Mr. Stradivarius (talk | contribs)‎ (Fix category) (diff | hist). . Template:Cincinnati Bengals roster‎; 15:28. . (-11)‎ . . ‎Eagles247 (talk | contribs)‎ (CB Nate Clements activated)

Please fix it and block/protect/everything else necessary, since I'm busy and don't have the time right now. Note a recent thread at WP:HD ("What's going on over at Current Events?") and the recent protection of PREVIOUSMONTH.YEAR. Nyttend backup (talk) 16:02, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * (non admin response) I'm not seeing any difficulties with the page (FF 13.01, WinXP). Was the problem already resolved before I looked? --Lexein (talk) 16:25, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but we need an admin to check each of these template edits for vandalism, except for ones by established users of course. Nyttend backup (talk) 16:27, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed --Lexein (talk) 16:36, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Been done, cleaned, protected. All should be back to normal-ish now. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 17:00, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hansle Parchment article hacked
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 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This is weird... the page comes up with the following error message when clicked :- "User:Earth Exploding Live sends friendly greetings to readers of this article. This message will be taken down within 24 hours if the link specified gets at least 2000 hits. Thank you."

I've checked the page history and source, and can't find any problems. Help please! (I have notified the user mentioned in the message)

Thanks, Mdann52 (talk) 16:13, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ Template vandalism.  Rcsprinter  (whisper)  @ 16:15, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily, please check User_talk:Earth Exploding Live - there are reports there of other articles being hijacked by this thing/person/whatever. Since he has so many socks, I'd assume he's found a way to make more. <font style="background:white;" color="purple"> BarkingFish 16:24, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've asked for emergency checkuser on a user who performed identical vandalism to another page. That user's already blocked, but CU will reveal other accounts.  Just hoping my email to the functionaries mailing list will go through quickly.  Nyttend backup (talk) 16:21, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

— Berean Hunter   (talk)  17:57, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Same thing happened at ASTRO and I can't figure out which template is affected. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 16:28, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Despite showing only the hijack message, the html of the page does contain all the information in the article, so you can find from that where the relevant html markup resides. (I found it in a stub template and tried to post it here, causing a mess.) -- <font color="#20406F"> spin control 16:50, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Just got a response from my email to the functionaries list; a CU ran a check, and the dementor's kiss (otherwise known as global locking) has been performed on at least one account. I'm guessing that everything's resolved for the moment.  Nyttend backup (talk) 16:56, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, these links still exist and the vandalism still remains to be found.
 * They're mostly the result of caching issues, since the link was transcluded by a template. A null edit to pages should immediately remove them from the list, or you can wait a few minutes and they should disappear.  Nyttend backup (talk) 18:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

L. Ron Hubbard
Could someone please take a look at the last few edits on this that weren't me, and look through the contribs of the obvious socks, maybe get a SPI together to block the originator? It's obviously someone taking the piss, mostly, though one of them did put a correct image of Hubbard's wife on her article at Sara Northrup Hollister. I don't have the time for concentrated investigation right now. Thanks. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:37, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've semi-protected LRH for now. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:29, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

User:HanzoHattori, now editing as Niemti: discussion regarding un-banning

 * Original ban discussion: Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive362
 * Original ban discussion: Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive362
 * Original ban discussion: Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive362

User:Niemti was recently blocked as a sockpuppet of User:HanzoHattori, having acknowledged in the SPI that they were said user. However, looking over the SPI archive for him, I note an extreme amount of fishing and likely false reports on other users, which makes me suspicious of anything included in Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of HanzoHattori that is based on "behavioral" evidence. One example of a perplexing case is User:Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog, where they were blocked because of this edit. I'm sorry, but how does that confirm anything?

Anyways, i've worked with Niemti before and he was of tremendous help on the Kony 2012 article, doing a ton of work on it. He's stated here on his talk page that he no longer has access to the Hanzo account from four years ago, so what would be the proper method of appealing the ban? Should he just do it on the Niemti talk page? Silver seren C 01:05, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Re "Captain Obvious": I think the username was the big tip-off there. I seem to recall that HH had less than cordial relations with one User:Estlandia, who once went by the handle "Miacek and his crime-fighting dog". The username was clearly intended to mock. Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:14, 28 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Do you believe this to be an accident made by a careless admin or a purposeful plot against Niemti by one of the user's enemies? <font color="navy" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  01:18, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Whoa, no, i'm not saying that, just that some of those checkuser cases in the past (all of which appear to have been initiated by different people) might have been hasty and relied too much on "behavioral evidence". That's kind of a criticism I have for the checkuser system in general though. But i'm more concerned about what Niemti's next step is, because he's a good editor and has done a lot of good work. Silver  seren C 01:24, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Blocks are supposed to prevent disruption to Wikipedia, not punish. Acoma Magic (talk) 04:04, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't see what this is preventing here. Silver  seren C 04:41, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Good editing. Acoma Magic (talk) 04:59, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Silverseren, the best venue for the discussion would be at WP:AN. Since they were banned via a comminity discussion, the un-ban would be done the same way. You could ask the user to put together a request for un-ban and it could be copied over to WP:AN for review. -- Dianna (talk) 05:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Can this be moved to WP:AN then? Silver  seren C 05:27, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Niemti should prepare a statement first, asking to be un-banned. I will post on their user talk, and see if they would do that, and someone could copy it over to AN for them. Not me, though; I am tired and will be logging off in a minute. -- Dianna (talk) 05:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

No just block him, Niemti is threatening me again and again that he will block me and has a rude behaviour just because I did a mistake once. He doesn't deserve to be on Wikipedia. Please I appeal you to block him and somebody please remove those block warnings from my talk page. --MegaCyanide666 (talk) 04:35, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I suggest you keep quiet for the time being, MegaCyanide. The quickest perusal of your talk page showed things like "I am not talking about you I am talking about Niemti that idiot of a buffoon", from you. That's a clear personal attack, and if you continue to complain about the behaviours of other editors on this board, it might boomerang on you. <font color="#8C0099">OohBunnies! <font color="#8C0099">(talk)  04:39, 28 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Apologies if I don't take your word for it, considering this personal attack (and this) you made on his talk page. You seem to have been far more rude than he ever was. Silver  seren C 04:41, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * If you're going to propose an unblock and unban of HanzoHattori, then do it. All this talking here is going to do nothing. Personally, if we have allowed this user to continue editing while banned, then why not unban him? We'll just re-hash all that has gone on before again. --MuZemike 07:30, 28 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd support any unblock, personally. Ironholds (talk) 12:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know if I would support an unblock yet, but I would be willing to consider it as it has been 4 years, it sounds like his contribs are decent, his claim that he forgot his password is plausible and a reason to overlook "block evasion" (which he is technically guilty of). If he requests it, this would be consistent with my goals assuming the accounts were linked and the community had a chance to discuss the merits.  Blocks are pretty cheap nowadays. I always say to forgive in the same manner you want to be forgiven. Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;   Join WER 12:44, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Exactly, Dennis. And the fellow is spending 90% of his time editing articles, which is very high, and have done lots of good gnomish work. I helped with copy edits at Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, an article they have contributed to extensively. Browsing through their talk page and user talk page edits, I don't see any evidence of the confrontational behaviour that got them banned in the long-ago. Four years is a long time, and it looks like their behaviour has changed. We can't afford to throw valuable contributors away over technicalities. I would support an unban motion. I am going to move this discussion to the AN board, which is the usual venue for these motions. -- Dianna (talk) 13:57, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Something to consider: this is the thread that discussed the block. I didn't participate at the time, but that proposal was only discussed for just over 13 hours (which I don't consider to be sufficient, but eh.) Maybe someone could check with Nietmi? - Penwhale &#124; dance in the air and follow his steps 15:20, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sure as this discussion drags on, there'll be plenty of bystanders weighing in with this basic sentiment: "Support indefinite block/ban. I don't care how good his contributions have been; they were done through evading a community-imposed ban, which demonstrates a flagrant disregard for Wikipedia policy. If he wishes to be unbanned, he may submit an appeal to the Arbitration Committee." To that I say, phooey! It may be the six or seventh most popular website in the world, but it's still just a website &mdash; it's not like he committed a felony offense. We don't mete out justice here on Wikipedia. Sure, he behaved like a bit of an @sshole back then, he didn't get along very well with people, and the community eventually got tired of it and told him to begone. This was in February 2008, over four years ago. He came back, dropped all connections to his old account (AFAIK), and is now a collaborative and productive member of our community. Unless someone provides hard evidence that his presence is counterproductive to the collegial atmosphere of Wikipedia, I'm very firmly opposed to blocking the Niemto account.  Master&amp;  Expert ( Talk ) 18:59, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I totally get that, but what about the precedent this would set? Every WP:LTA headcase will start trying to do the same thing. Some of them have been banned just as long. This is why we don't let people sneak in through the back door like this. the fact that he got caught is also telling. Of he had never returned to old habbits no one would have even suspected socking. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:24, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I figured someone would make the argument that it'd set a bad precedent. I think HanzoHattori is different from most of the people on LTA, though &mdash; he hasn't been leading a sockpuppet crusade against Wikipedia for the purpose of exhausting the patience of any admin who has the misfortune of cleaning up after him. What got him banned wasn't his idiosyncratic editing manner, it was his disregard for the concept of being polite. I've not seen any evidence that he retains said issue, so to me the point is moot. I stand by my above comments.  Master&amp;  Expert ( Talk ) 19:32, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It's just a website, so what's the big deal that he can't edit it, why should we bend over backwards for him? If he really wants to come back, play by the same rules as everyone else: fulfill the obligations needed to satisfy the Standard Offer.  If ihe doesn't want to do that, let him find something else to do with his time -- it's just a website, after all, and no one has a right to edit it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:36, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, some users cannot bear to part with the website, and that's a fact. That's OK. If he gets unbanned/unblocked, I'm sure we will be discussing numerous ANI incidents, culminating with another ban proposal, within a year. Then, a couple of years later, the community will consider another unban/unblock. Wash, rinse, and repeat. --MuZemike 22:11, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily. People do change, after all (especially if they're relatively young; teenagers can have a totally different personality within less than a year's time, from what I've seen). I have yet to be presented with recent evidence that Niemto is rude or abrasive towards other people. In fact, all I've seen from viewing his recent contributions are constructive edits and a pleasant (if blunt and slightly sardonic) demeanour.  Master&amp;  Expert ( Talk ) 22:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm always reading comments on the problem of editor retention. Can a brave admin just unblock him so time and valuable edits can stop being wasted? Acoma Magic (talk) 19:58, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not sure if he would be blocked or unblocked, so I will remain neutral. I think the last time he edited before the Niemti account was, who has the same problem of incivility and tendaticidous editing, as well as the same interests in articles such as the Mortal Kombat series, the Soul Calibur series and the Max Payne series (see Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive742). Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:50, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Per the comments above, I believe an unblock/unban proposal is needed in order to reach consensus. <font color="navy" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  20:00, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Proposed Unblock/unban

 * Support As proposer. <font color="navy" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  20:00, 28 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I do have to agree that by today's standards the original ban discussion was inadequate, nut it appears they were already blocked at that point anyway. If the IP identified above was the same user, I cannot support unblocking at this time despite the "reformed" sock account. I would say WP:OFFER. They have proven they are capable of making good edits, but it also seems like they have yet to put aside the troubles of their past. The total between the socks considered confirmed and those that were just suspected is 27, if even half of those are accurate that is too much to just look the other way on this one. If they can just walk away and not sock at all for a few months I think the community would be more accepting of an unblock.Beeblebrox (talk) 20:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - What's the point of walking away for a few months? If his edits were disruptive, then that would be the correct remedy. However, his edits have been constructive and a ban from Wikipedia for a few months wouldn't improve Wikipedia. Bans are supposed to prevent disruption to Wikipedia. Whereas a ban of this user for a few months is just punishment. Acoma Magic (talk) 20:35, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Offer, per Beeblebrox. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:38, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Agree with the concerns by Beeblebrox, we should give them the standard offer. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:47, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Support I don't see anything preventative about this block, just punitive action based on past socking. The point is, if this sort of thing happened more often with people that socked, namely, they returned with a new account, made tons of productive edits, and didn't exhibit the tendencies that got them blocked before, then I would be all for not blocking them. The whole point of the block system is to get rid of unproductive editors who are, in some way, harming the encyclopedia. If this fact is no longer true, then I don't see the purpose of blocking them any longer. At this point, even with using the standard offer, we would be harming the encyclopedia far more than we would be helping it. Silver  seren C 21:00, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, the standard offer six months length isn't set in stone, per the Variations section. It is completely within policy and even within OFFER for us to decide to unblock now. Silver  seren C 21:05, 28 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Support immediate, unconditional unblock.  Master&amp;  Expert ( Talk ) 21:25, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: I've left a note at JBW's talk (the blocking admin.), but judging from comments on his talk page - he may be off-line for a while. Chedzilla (talk) 21:30, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The persistent incivility and disruptive nature of this user, in addition to the admitted intention to continue socking and ignore our rules, clearly indicates this user is a net negative to the encyclopaedia. To unblock him now as a result of his further socking would send the wrong signal, "socking can you get you unblocked", to other users, making a mockery of our rules. Nanobear (talk) 22:20, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The persistent incivility and disruptive nature of this user, doesn't apply to his edits regarding this current account. This encyclopaedia is for the reader, not for admins to be offended if people don't follow their rulings. Therefore he is a net positive to Wikipedia; I can't see anything negative he brings to Wikipedia. People edit Wikipedia because they enjoy it, they're not going to stop because of a piece of text on their account reading "blocked". When people don't learn their lesson and continue editing disruptively from various accounts, block those accounts. However, when they edit constructively then what is accomplished from blocking? The wiki rules aren't sacred or holy, they exist to improve Wikipedia. WP:Ignore all rules. Acoma Magic (talk) 22:48, 28 July 2012 (UTC)


 * You do realize that's something from two years ago, right? And, amusingly, the sockpuppet statement isn't followed by the usual reasoning, but the reasoning that he's going to make new accounts to continue writing new articles and improving the encyclopedia. I'm perfectly fine with that. If only all sockpuppetters followed that reasoning. Silver  seren C 22:57, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Support unblock/unban By all accounts, the editor is peaceably improving articles. Let's not loose sight of the forest for the trees, we're here to build an encyclopedia, not to uphold a set of rules. Remember: We don't have a lot of spare hands. If he's willing to avoid past mistakes (and I'd suspect he'd be watched for a while) then jeez, why not?--Wehwalt (talk) 23:13, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per Acoma Magic's second comment. When we ban someone for problematic behavior and find that the behavior in question has ceased, we're cutting off our nose to spite our face if we prohibit that person from contributing positively.  Let's watch HH/Niemti to ensure that the civility issues do not return, but unless that happen, no complaints.  Nyttend (talk) 00:07, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Beeblebrox and (wait for it...) Acoma Magic's second comment. This is why we have the standard offer (and yes, at a reduced time, say 60 days), and I think there would be support and forgiveness if he went that route.  However, as much as I want to bring back constructive people back into the fold, I am aware that if I condone or reward socking, even if they are doing good things, I am encouraging it and I will see more of it, with the socks using this as a justification.  We can't do this.  I can be open minded about forgiving it after the 60 days, but it is in our collective best interest if we don't reward socking today and make them wait at least a token period.  I think if you work SPI a few weeks, you will understand why.  Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;   Join WER 00:30, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You would be encouraging people who have been blocked to return to Wikipedia in a constructive way. Vandals, trolls and POV pushers already disregard the wiki rules. Acoma Magic (talk) 00:38, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. At first I was a little confused, by after reading Acoma Magic's second comment, I must say that supporting this unblock is the right thing to do. If a blocked editor wishes to improve Wikipedia, and if consensus allows it, it is an admins duty to unblock for the improvement of Wikipedia. Here, I think it is a wise choice to unblock, as both standard offer apply and the editor has made substantial contributions as well. The only problems are the some admins do not want to make a fool of themselves "rewarding" socking. I have to say, the editor has shown good behavior in the past, and if he 'misbehaves" again (I don't see how he could, he isn't a troll or POV pusher) then you can just block him again. <font color="navy" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  01:30, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Oppose You betray the communities trust. You evade your block and make mostly useful edits. That is a nice start but it is the simplest thing in the world to accept the standard offer - apologize - and get back to work. I know that sitting quietly behind a keyboard and never having to react to an actual human makes it seem like this isn't a community worth acknowledging but that isn't true. MarnetteD | Talk 04:38, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to Strong Support: per Wehwalt. Interested in comments by both the user and JBW tomorrow. Chedzilla (talk) 03:19, 29 July 2012 (UTC) (edited to "Strong" support per users statement on his talk page - listed below) Chedzilla (talk) 23:43, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, to be a devil's advocate here, from looking at the original ban proposal back in February 2008, while there was some support for a ban, I don't know if that was enough support there, even given our higher standards of enacting one now. Obviously, there was a bit of support (just without the "support/oppose" !votes), but the timeframe seems a bit rushed. That means that betrayal of the community's trust is fairly low if there was only a small amount of support for the ban. (Though, from my early Wikipedia experiences in 2008 and 2009, ban proposals didn't seem as structured as they seem now, and they're still not terribly that strictly structured.) --MuZemike 07:22, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Until the user themselves makes an unban and unblock request, there is nothing to discuss. No other user has standing to make such a request.  Sandstein   07:08, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * He obviously wants to be unblocked. There's no point in throwing away our current progress in this proposal because of a technicality. Acoma Magic (talk) 07:41, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Support. Look, if he comes back and takes advantage, I'll be the first to kick him in the ribs - hell, I'll be happy to make the block myself. But based on his contributions I've got no reason to think he won't be productive. Ironholds (talk) 10:22, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Support I never encountered HattoriHanzo, but I've edited alongside Niemti (and also come under personal attack from MegaCyanide666 on my own talk page, FYI and their edits have always been solid and constructive, especially in the area of improving grammar and formatting, something a lot of articles are hurting for.Euchrid (talk) 10:46, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment I remember Niemti editing some articles on my watchlist (I'll have to recheck which). Does this mean if the ban on HH stands, his sock's edits will have to be reverted?--Eaglestorm (talk) 12:14, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Edits by socks only get reverted if they're not constructive, unless the person is a long term vandal, then it'll get reverted without even checking the edits. Acoma Magic (talk) 17:10, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Technically, WP:DENY encourages people to obliterate all edits by users violating bans, the better to disincentivise ban evasion. Ironholds (talk) 19:26, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That's only for vandalism though. Acoma Magic (talk) 19:41, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Ironholds is right. Precisely why I heartily ignore whenever it conflicts with WP:DENY, since it's just an essay.  Nyttend (talk) 06:15, 30 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Strong Support (unbanning user) - I've have never encountered HanzoHattori (for obvious reasons), but Niemti and I have edited similar articles. The user is definitely productive and is also a good vandal-fighter. See nothing really disruptive - the HH incident was, how many years ago? Cyan  Gardevoir  (used EDIT!) 08:20, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - What evidence do we have that Niemti is HanzoHattori? Did an unban request come from the HanzoHattori account? Has anyone bothered to confirm with the banned user that this is actually him? I don't see the connection apart from some questionable behavioral evidence as laid out by SilverSeren, and suspect we're being trolled. In any case, even if the user is HanzoHattori, I oppose an unban because for one thing, he says he's quitting straight away, and for another thing, the terms of the standard offer were not met. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 19:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Support unbanning because I believe that he would be a great asset for the project. As a note of order, I collaborated with this user from the very beginning when he just started editing as Hanzo. Let's give him another chance. My very best wishes (talk) 12:47, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement from user's talk

 * Hi, I've already stated pretty much all I wanted at and I'd rather not start writing any kind of a tl;dr rant about it. Regarding past, I don't even quite remember what had happened 4 years ago and don't really want to recall (it was probably some embarrassing Internet drama that would make me roll my eyes about it nowadays). I don't have any emotional or other attachment to the old account, it's like an ancient history to me, and I'd rather rather talk about my current activity which is more relevant I think.


 * Also the truth is I actually wanted (want) to take some kind of a vacation from Wikipedia anyway, like to post an inactive tag here and log off, log in infrequently. I'm wasting way too much time, it's like an addiction; also, like Klimov once said about his films, I did pretty much everything that I wanted to, at this moment anyway. Minus the stuff that I didn't even want to touch, because it's just too much work. (And so the only thing I'd immediately do it would be to revert back a bunch of totally ridicalous reverts "identified as vandalism" by a "brony" who has retaliated this way for my removal of his non-notable My Little Pony'crossover fanfiction story during my cleanup of the Fallout'' series article.) For example I realized that I almost don't even play video games anymore, I just write about them on Wikipedia, not to mention personal life and work. So I'm not even all that mad about it. --Niemti (talk) 23:09, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 * copied from User talk:Niemti by Chedzilla (talk) 23:40, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I reverted those reverts; some had already been undone. Acoma Magic (talk) 23:58, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 * User now unblocked after discussion with blocking admin. — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ? 08:58, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll be much less active now, which is what I planned anyway. --Niemti (talk) 09:07, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Laughable
The ban of the original account was in place for 2 years, with the editor socking thereafter. The unban discussion here pretty clearly showed no consensus to unban, yet he was unblocked anyway. How is this a correct way to undo a 2 year old community ban? - Burpelson AFB ✈ 16:27, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Can someone at least remove the banned tag from the original account and redirect it to his current account? - Burpelson AFB ✈ 16:31, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This is a cpmpletely bizzarre result. I can't say I see the strong consensus that would normally be expected to overturn a ban, and it seems the user in question doesn't really care and plans to quit anyway, meaning the entire discussion was a waste of time. This is why unban discussions are usually initiated by the banned user themselves instead of relying on conjecture and assumptions. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:54, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree also - the discussion was only open 12 hours and I don't see a community consensus to unblock here - I would also have opposed under the conditions of this discussion -  You  really  can  17:03, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The ban of the original account was 4 and a half years ago. It's correct, per Wehwalt, we're here to build an encyclopaedia, not uphold a set of rules. Acoma Magic (talk) 17:10, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Your opinion may have value - but then the unblock is not a community unblock of a community ban, its an admin WP:IAR unblock - You  really  can  17:16, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * 5 admins are fine with the unblock. Acoma Magic (talk) 17:38, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Acoma Magic, you created your account less than 30 days ago yet show impressive knowledge of how Wikipedia works. What other accounts have you had prior to this one? - Burpelson AFB ✈ 19:36, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * A month ago I didn't know much about how Wikipedia works. I've spent most of my time on Wikipedia reading rather than editing. For instance I spent about 3 hours reading through stuff to do with User:Hopiakuta but I only wrote a paragraph. Acoma Magic (talk) 21:43, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You do understand though, Acoma, that such an uncanny knowledge of Wikipedia for somebody so new will arouse suspicion from people. Your fourth edit was to ITN/C, and you managed to discover the incidents noticeboard a mere four days after creating your account. You quickly learned how to undo an edit, as well as how to access the Wikimedia toolserver, both of which are quite technically advanced for someone who just registered an account on Wikipedia for the first time. Now bear in mind, I'm not making any assumptions &mdash; there is such a thing as someone simply being a very fast learner, and I suspect you are of a brighter mindset than the average Joe. But by that same token, please understand that I do have a certain degree of skepticism towards the notion that this is, in fact, your first account on Wikipedia. Nevertheless, I shall give you the benefit of the doubt until I'm presented with evidence that you are not a good faith contributor; thus far, you seem like a force for good. That's all I really care about. :)  Master&amp;  Expert ( Talk ) 07:55, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * There's no way that people without accounts who have been editing Wikipedia for years would ever have developed any knowledge about policies or watch the admin noticeboards for their delicious dramas. OH WAIT. 192.251.134.5 (talk) 13:54, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Urgh. There's no way this was the proper procedure for undoing a community ban, consensus or not (and I agree that there's no way 12 hours on AN and a quick note on the blocking admin's talk constitutes consensus anyway). This doesn't reflect at all well on the unblocking admin, who can hardly be trusted not to summarily overturn future community bans on the same basis. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:43, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. One admin isn't able to undo a community ban. Bans can only be reversed by community consensus or by ArbCom. The unblock was out if process and should be reinstated. And the discussion above still shows no consensus for reversing the ban. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 14:58, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I'd repeat what I've previously said about self-important unblockers being the principal enablers of disruption and other misconduct on Wikipedia, but I'd only be repeating myself.   Sandstein   16:29, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That which the community does (and this appears to have been a community ban) the community can undo (as can Arbcom or Jimmy). I know of no precedent requiring arbcom to un-community-ban, and I think there have been prior counterexamples.
 * I am concerned about the discussion above, but also the current ANI discusion where it appears to me that he's back to his abusive behavior again. The combination of odd consensus determination / process here and apparent immediate return to (at least mildly) abusive behavior...  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:02, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Not only am I also concerned about the discussion above, but the ANI discussion is now closed. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:08, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It was closed because you complained about nothing. There's nothing there to be concerned about. Acoma Magic (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I was seriously concerned about the user's apparent incivility, despite his good intentions. If I did anything wrong, then I am deeply sorry. It was not my intention to hurt anyone. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:33, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't buy it. Acoma Magic (talk) 05:36, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I feel that the unbanning of HanzoHattori/Niemti clearly violates a fundamental policy: the banning policy. The policy states that administrators are forbidden "from reversing or overturning (explicitly or in substance) any action taken by another administrator pursuant to the terms of an active arbitration remedy, and explicitly noted as being taken to enforce said remedy." The only exceptions are with the written authorization of Arbcom, or if there is a clear, substantial, and active community consensus to do so (see Banning policy for more information). As such, there is no consensus to unban HanzoHattori/Niemti as he's still banned; however, the user is unblocked at the moment. Also, bans apply to all edits, good or bad. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 06:46, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought that I may have to type a list of reasons why "I don't buy it." That's enough though. Acoma Magic (talk) 10:31, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * A vast majority of banned contributors do not contribute positively to the project, to tell this politely. Therefore they remain banned and rightly so. However, if a contributor clearly contributes positively, he should be allowed to continue per WP:IAR. The exact procedures is a different matter. If he wanted to follow procedures, he had to either contact appeals at Arbcom (arbcom-appeals-en@lists.wikimedia.org) or follow WP:Standard offer. The fact that he did not follow these policies is not a good sign, but WP:IAR still can prevail. Punishing an administrator who acted by WP:IAR would not be a good idea, in my opinion. My very best wishes (talk) 12:17, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I stand by my earlier opinion, and add that I feel the original discussion attracted only a few people, far smaller than I would find acceptable for a ban, and it is worth very little respect. If there is no present consensus to keep the user blocked, then there should be no impediment to his editing.  Yes, he has said he intends to scale back involvement, but I know that it's hard to stay away.  Let it go.  If he does harm, deal with it then.  I'm not expecting it.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. Since HanzoHattori/Niemti is unblocked per WP:IAR, I think we should just leave him be, but if the user does get in trouble again by being incivil, using personal attacks, disruption, or tendencious editing, we should just deal with it. Unless and until that happens, I think we should just drop it for now. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:07, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * All your edits so far have been the opposite of the view you just expressed. Even the rewording and added comment at the top of the discussion you just performed suggests you're not sincere. Can an admin close this discussion so we can get on with our lives? Acoma Magic (talk) 18:27, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please don't make assumptions about me. I was only trying to be civil, but if I hurt anyone, I am deeply sorry. It was not my intention to hurt or upset anyone. Even if there is no consensus to unban HanzoHattori/Niemti, I also think that we may at least close this discussion. Only if he does harm to the encyclopedia should we go through the proper channels. With that said, I think we're done here. Far too much time has been wasted. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:32, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Unblock requests being handled by non-administrators
Hi, folks. I was not able to quickly find an answer to this question: is there a policy/guideline/consensus that precludes non-administrators from handling unblock requests? I've seen an increasing number handling them. Given the often-controversial nature of blocks, this struck me as odd. <font face="Tahoma">NTox · talk 19:19, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * That's probably not ok. Do you have any specific examples? Keilana&#124;Parlez ici 19:26, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Non-admins may not directly act on unblock requests. Period.  The instructions on the unblock request are pretty clear.  They may comment in some cases, but not action.  Some examples would be beneficial <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  19:29, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * And so the unblock/unban request in the above threads would not be valid then. <font color="navy" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  19:30, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you mean with that statement, Penguin. <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda 19:35, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Non admins can't unblock. A consensus of people that includes people other than admins might direct a block to be overriden, but without admin rights, they can't "directly" act. -- Avanu (talk) 19:41, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) I proposed the unblock request for User: Niemti. I am very sorry, I thought that anyone could propose unblocking on a discussion page. I have done this before in the past, so those requests should be overutrned as well. <font color="navy" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  19:48, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Robby - we are talking about users requesting to be unblocked on their own talk page, not editor X proposing that editor Y is unblocked on a notice board. GiantSnowman 19:49, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Specifically, the question is whether non-admins are permitted to edit an request template to set it to "declined" status -- which is all they could possibly do, since they do not have the buttons to physically perform an unblock. This would be similar to non-admins closed an AfD as "keep" -- except that policy never permits it. Looie496 (talk) 19:56, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, non-admins should not set an unblock template to declined or otherwise. Besides engaging with the blocked user, the only other thing a non-admin should be permitted to do is remove obvious trolling or abuse of the unblock template, then report the user to an administrator if the user talk page needs protecting. Ol' Willy probably isn't serious about his requests. — <font color="DD0000">Moe <font color="0000FF">ε  20:06, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Reading this, a part of me wishes I had written down some of the recent cases I have run in to. In any case, here is one from today, which prompted this thread. <font face="Tahoma">NTox · talk 19:51, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've notified the user in question about this thread. GiantSnowman 19:55, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah. Now I see (*facepalm* -.-). That does look very bad, only an admin should close an unblock request. Just a general question, can a non-admin inform an admin of an unblock request? <font color="navy" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  19:57, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, your example is inappropriate. Obviously, it was made in good faith; but the non-admin editor should be encouraged to engage with the blocked user if they like (as they did in the comments following the unblock request), and not act on the unblock request itself. --Tgeairn (talk) 19:58, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 * My closing of that unblock request was erronous (in that case), but I think that non-sysops should be permitted to close unblock requests is obvious (such as at AfD).  Ebe  123  → report 20:01, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * [EC] I've changed around the signature on the Explorationofspace talk page from Ebe123 to mine — I agree with the unblock rationale that Ebe gave, so it's my hope that my signature as an admin will resolve this specific issue. I see no reason for nonadmins closing unblock requests, since unlike AFDs, they're always contentious.  Conversely, I see no reason for objecting to the idea of non-admin informing admin of unblock request; it can be done wrongly (e.g. WP:CANVASS), but we should permit the practice itself.  Nyttend (talk) 20:02, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't have an issue with non-admins declining or removing unblock requests that tell someone (usually the blocking admin) to go fuck themselves with a knife or threaten to murder an entire family, and I'm fine with non-admins procedurally declining unblocks from AE and CU blocks. Beyond that, I'd rather only admins handle the request itself; I'm more than happy if a non-admin wants to comment on some aspect of the block to give context or engage the blocked user, but ultimately I think an admin should be handling the request itself. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 20:03, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Or those that say "I want to continue Spam Wars!" Ebe  123  → report 20:06, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, those too. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 20:33, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

The instances mentioned here as qualifying for NAC would, in most instances, require further admin attention; i.e. the locking of the blocked user's talk. With the unblock request acted upon the page is removed from the dashboard. Perhaps there should be a closer examination of this situation.  Tide  rolls  20:55, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * When I think talkpage editing access should be revoked, I go to the blocking admin's talk page.  Ebe  123  → report 21:06, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Not a bad idea, but an extra step.  Tide  rolls  21:13, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I do go to the talk page already.  Ebe  123  → report 21:28, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It is an extra step whether the unblock request is actioned or not. Again, it's your time. If you want to notify admins of talk page abuse, go for it.  My point is that we have a process in place to handle the situation.  Tide  rolls  21:34, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * What should I do? Get an RfA in 1 hour?  Ebe  123  → report 22:16, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Catch the 100 bug while you can! <font face="Tahoma">NTox · talk 22:41, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll cool down about this before.  Ebe  123  → report 22:48, 29 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment There is no such thing as a NAC of an unblock request. Non-admins can not decline an unblock request because it implies they would also have been able to accept it, and that's not the case. If the unblock request is an obscenity-laced attack, it can be reverted just like any other vandalism. 64.40.54.127 (talk) 00:36, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Very good point. Thanks for the reminder; I don't know why nobody else thought (or spoke of thinking) of treating obvious bad-faith requests like the vandalism that they are.  Nyttend (talk) 01:42, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "Non-admins can not decline an unblock request because it implies they would also have been able to accept it, and that's not the case." I don't think that's the case. Some editors close AfD (I used to close MfD) discussions without being able to delete them. Some people do treat them like vandalism, although most just decline it and some others put Unblock abusive.   Ebe  123  → report 10:49, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You're not permitted to use unblock abusive because it clearly states "an administrator has reviewed this request and identified it as abusive", which you're not. Indeed, all unblock closing templates say the same thing. <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda 17:44, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I was not stating "I", but stating different groups of people, including sysops.  Ebe  123  → report 00:11, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

The only thing being an "admin" means is that we have the tools to action accepted unblocks. There is no reason that any uninvolved editor in good standing should't be able to perform an action that doesn't require the sysop bit; and indeed I've seen non-admin editors with significantly more common sense than some of my fellow sysops. :) Me included. Restricting such mundane things on the principle of an RFA is silly and simply enforces the elitest "us and them" attitude that currently exists between some admins and editors. --Errant (chat!) 11:20, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Admins are vested with not only technical tools but also responsibilities to go along with them, it isn't about being "better" or "elitist". There should never at any time be any such thing as a "non-admin unblock decline", and if I ever happen to see one I'd revert in a heartbeat. Tarc (talk) 11:48, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * RFA is a political process that serves to make sure someone is not going to go "batshit" crazy with sysop tools. The idea that this comes with "great responsibility" (beyond the expectation of not going mad) is a faux elitism that is one of the reasons our community is so dysfunctional. --Errant (chat!) 10:40, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Other than obvious vandalism, non-admins shouldn't decline or remove unblock request. If you aren't allowed to accept it (and non-admins are incapable of it), they aren't allowed to decline it, either. Obviously bad-faith requests are the exception to this rule; it may, some times, make more sense to decline those than remove them, and if it clearly is one of these cases, a non-admin should be able to do it. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:43, 30 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I take a very limited view of what actions that don't require the tools should be restricted to admins. Just because a non-admin lacks the ability to action a request if decided one way, doesn't mean they should be restricted in actioning that request if the result is one they don't need the tools for. That said, I would still make an exception for unblock requests, as a blocked editor has very limited avenues to appeal a block, and can't just go to AN/I to request the non-admin unblock decline be reviewed. Being blocked is a serious thing, and deserves review by an actual admin in response to the unblock request. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  14:09, 30 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I think there's an important part here: if a non-admin closes an abusive, repetetive, or otherwise wildly non-compliant unblock request, it removes it from the queue, and therefore may not be seen by an admin who can take the proper action in locking the talkpage, extending the block, etc. <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda 14:13, 30 July 2012 (UTC)


 * In the period before I was an administrator, I would not have considered it appropriate for me to close an unblock request on a user talkpage. However, at times I would comment on the merits of the request, or when it seemed clear to me that the block was unwarranted, post to ANI urging that admins take a look at the unblock request promptly (rather than have it sit unattended in the queue until someone happened to get to it). Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:17, 30 July 2012 (UTC)


 * There's no problem with anyone commenting on an unblock request, but except for cases of obvious bad faith only admins should actually be declining or accepting them. The reason for that is simply that admins are vetted by the community and, as has been pointed out, only an admin can actually take any real action to unblock or harden the block. Beeblebrox (talk) 14:31, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with Beeblebrox There's nothing wrong with commenting on an unblock request. In fact, if an editor is thinking of applying for admin status in the future, it would be good practice to think about how you would close the request. A comment, starting with "I am not an admin, so can neither accept nor reject this request, but I think the request should be accepted/rejected for the following reasons..." would be helpful for multiple reasons. If the admin concurs that the rationale is fine, then the admin can copy the wording, or refer to it and accept or reject faster than otherwise. If the admin agrees with the proposed close, but not the rationale, or disagrees with the proposed close, the admin can use it as a teaching moment. If the unblock request is deficient, as many are, and the non-admin points out the shortcomings, then the blocked editor has more time to work on a proper requests. However, as EatsShootsAndLeaves points out the request should not be closed, as that removes it from the queue. (Just now read comment from Newyorkbrad, agree with that as well.)-- SPhilbrick  (Talk)  19:38, 30 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the rule here is that applies here is: "Never accept a 'no' from someone who isn't empowered to say 'yes.'" Although this would be sort of the reverse: don't say no unless you are empowered to say yes.  Determining consensus at an AFD is not the same as unilaterally declining an unblock.--v/r - TP 21:07, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "Determining consensus at an AfD" is an admin-only task as well. If there is even a question as to the possible close then NAC is inappropriate. As to the matter at hand, the words "This blocked user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request" don't seem especially ambiguous to me, and I'd advise Ebe123 of informing the community in advance if he decides to take the NAC concept and extend it to impersonating an administrator in random other areas of the project in future. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:54, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Non-admins should certainly not decline unblock requests, because they cannot accept them or change the block settings if that would have been appropriate, and also because they have not been elected to perform such functions. I would have thought that this ought to be self-evident.  Sandstein   16:25, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll IAR edit almost anything but I wouldn't even think of editing an unblock request. While I kinda agree with ErrantX's comment above that admins aren't angels or supermen, they at least have some charter from passing an Rfa; a blocked user ought to have a "hearing" from an admin, even if it's it's blatantly obvious to use peanut gallery editors a decline and talk page removal is on it's way. Nobody Ent 19:07, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I would say we have a pretty fair sampling of uses here, several admins, non-admins, and a sitting arbitrator all seem to agree that while commenting on an unblock request can be done by anyone, only actual admins should handle the requests themselves. I think we can call that a consensus. If anyone wishes to expand the scope of the concept of non-administrative closes to include unblock request they should make a proper proposal and seek community approval of it first. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:48, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. I'll close this. 28bytes (talk) 03:48, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for removal of adminship
Comments welcome. - jc37 03:50, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Requests for removal of adminship
 * I'm a bit confused about asking for comments on that when Requests for Comment/Community de-adminship proof of concept is still open. Shouldn't that be settled first? Dougweller (talk) 11:49, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * See also: Request for Admin Sanctions. There seems to be a theme here. Chedzilla (talk) 12:04, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess it's because every other proposal for a similar process has been shouted down and maybe people think that if they propose several processes at least one of them will stick? Or maybe they can eventually be merged into one good solid process. In any case, it's long overdue. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 14:51, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This appears to me to be massive, bureaucratic, unnecessary bloat. What we definitely don't need is for everyone to waste ungodly amounts of time on re-RfA'ing an admin every time he/she screws up.  There is already a process for removal of adminship (it's called arbcom), and no one has provided solid evidence that it is dysfunctional (to my knowledge).  Yes, it is time-consuming and the bar for desysopping is currently high, but again, there is no solid evidence that it shouldn't be high (e.g. there is no evidence that a significant number of admins are causing damage to the project and need to be stripped of the bit, but can't because the process has failed).  <span style="font:small-caps 1.3em Garamond,Times,serif;color:#444444;letter-spacing:0.2em;">-Scottywong <span style="font:0.75em Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;color:#442244;">| gossip _  18:40, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The current method is just as bureaucratic. Ryan Vesey 18:44, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * So, two overly bureaucratic methods are better than one? What is wrong with the current bureaucratic method that requires such major changes?  <span style="font:small-caps 1.3em Garamond,Times,serif;color:#227722;letter-spacing:0.2em;">-Scottywong <span style="font:0.75em Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;color:#224422;">| confess _  18:47, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Scotty.
 * "What we definitely don't need is for everyone to waste ungodly amounts of time on re-RfA'ing an admin every time he/she screws up. "
 * The RRA proposal is specifically designed to avoid that actually.
 * As for arbcom, yes. And it still is at the final stage of this proposal too. What this does is stand in for the many WP:DR steps in between. The path to having arbcom review an admin's admin actions is a LONG, drawn-out, often drama-filled process. So the idea is to make this a straight-forward simplified process, while making sure there are safety-valves to avoid "pitchforking" and wasting the community's time.
 * If you have suggestions after looking over the proposal, I'm all ears. - jc37 19:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've looked over the proposal, and the only change from the current process that I can see is that it makes it far easier to initiate proceedings against an admin. The "long, drawn-out" process you describe is the current safety valve that avoids pitchforking and wasting the community's time.  The intermediate dispute resolutions on the way to arbcom are not necessarily useless drama-fests.  They serve as a venue for voicing complaints about an admin's actions and offering an opportunity for the admin to defend or correct their behavior without the immediate, looming threat of desysopping.  Again, there is no reason for spending our time inventing new processes.  You are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist and/or has already been adequately solved, and all of the proposed solutions (including yours) just create different problems.  <span style="font:small-caps 1.3em Garamond,Times,serif;color:#774477;letter-spacing:0.2em;">-Scottywong <span style="font:0.75em Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;color:#222222;">| communicate _  21:01, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The intermediate discussions are pretty much only a paper trail creating process. (It's been discussed several times about how RFCU has no teeth.) That same process can be done through the nomination/certification.
 * the point of having three admins certify is exactly to stop this from going beyond "attack page" status if it turns out that that's all that particular nom is. Similar to how such threads on AN/I are dealt with. - jc37 13:32, 2 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Part of being an admin is occasionally making difficult and unpopular decisions. The nature of difficult and unpopular decisions is such that a lot of people disagree with the decision.  If all it takes is 3 admins to disagree with a decision to force a week-long re-RfA on an admin, then I think you'll find that there will be a major shortage of admins who are willing to make difficult or unpopular decisions, for fear of having to deal with the giant pile of bullshit that comes along with it.  We've all already been through RfA at least once, I certainly have no desire to go through another one (especially since all the previous unpopular decisions I've made in the past will come up at the re-RfA, and anyone who disagreed with any of those decisions will be calling for my head).  If I make a mistake and 3 admins came to me and told me they thought it was the wrong decision, then I would probably discuss it with them and reverse my action in most cases.  No giant bureaucracy required.  If there are admins out who are causing damage to the project, then they can and will be taken to arbcom.  Just last week, arbcom desysopped 2 admins.  The current process works just fine, let's stop wasting our time on inventing a new one that has no additional benefits apart from making it extremely easy to initiate (which is not a benefit, in my opinion).  <span style="font:small-caps 1.3em Garamond,Times,serif;color:#774477;letter-spacing:0.2em;">-Scottywong <span style="font:0.75em Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;color:#772277;">| communicate _  19:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The three admins would be certifying a nomination filled with evidence similar to an RfC/U. - jc37 20:19, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Which basically makes it a mini-ArbCom... except any admins can chime in. That makes it far more likely we'll get into these debates, for no real gain. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 20:26, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No. because it's very limited and very specific in outcome. (Any thing more would and should require a full arbcom case.) And... if arbcom does not review, the process is overturned automatically. Arbcom is still at the top of DR, including this process. - jc37 13:32, 2 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Scotty, the whole idea behind any of these new plans is to reduce bureaucracy, not increase it, as well as deal with issues in short order, with less drama and headaches, with a lot of checks and balances to protect admins from false claims.   One or more of the plans requires a very high bar, multiple ways to be shut down instantly and sanctions given to the certifying parties if they made a bad faith case, and allows for the admin to themselves to stop a proceeding if they have an epiphany.  I would suggest reading through all of the information available before jumping to a conclusion, as it would appear you haven't.  Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;   Join WER 15:34, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't feel it's necessary to read through thoroughly until someone demonstrates that there is actually a problem that needs solving. <span style="font:small-caps 1.3em Garamond,Times,serif;color:#774477;letter-spacing:0.2em;">-Scottywong <span style="font:0.75em Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;color:#442244;">| chat _  18:04, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That is certainly within your rights, although your opinions about the plans would have more weight if it were based on the actual information therein. As many, many others have expressed an interest in such a plan, and this discussion has been ongoing for many years, I'm confident that a great number of people are already convinced there is a problem that needs solving.  But again, you certainly aren't obligated to join in the discussion, only invited to.  Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;   Join WER 18:15, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

BLP violation in Articles for creation
WP:ANI is protected from editing, so I can't put this there, and I'm not really sure where else this should be reported. I listed Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/addisoning for speedy deletion as a personal attack, but my db tag was removed by another editor because the article is supposedly not easily identifiable. That may be true to the general world, but not to the person who is being attacked. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 00:50, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * And I have discovered that the editor who removed my deletion tag also removed the warning of creating attack pages from the IP Talk page of the editor who created the attack page. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 00:54, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I am the editor who reviewed the initial AfC and declined it (as a neologism). I then noticed the atack warning on the user page in my watchlist (auto-add).  I contested the CSD (by removing the tag) and deleted the warning from the creator ip's talk page (as the CSD, and reason for the warning, were both contested).  The article seemed simply an unreferenced new term.  While the name "Addison" was used, and in a likely negative way, there was no way of a visitor determining which "Addison."  As I pointed out, it could have even been referring to the author as a vanity page.  I will suggest it is even something certain people might be proud of doing.  --Nouniquenames (talk) 01:06, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It may be useful to understand how these things come about: kids teasing each other.  One kid creates an article making fun of another kid's name, and then tells the other kid to look at it, and starts laughing hysterically, and maybe tells his friends to look at it too.  The sensible response would be to ignore it, but since we're dealing with kids here, sensible responses are too much to expect.  When you see something like that, you really should just delete it. Looie496 (talk) 05:28, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Nounique, I think your understanding of the speedy deletion process is a bit flawed. Being contested does not in any way negate a speedy deletion nomination. You may be confusing that process with proposed deletion. If you are not familiar enough with the criteria for speedy deletion to evaluate whether a nomination was correct or not it is probably best that you leave it for others to evaluate. I have deleted that page as blatant vandalism. The removal of the warning from the IP talk page is also completely inappropriate. You should never be removing anything from somebody else's talk page unless it is clear cut vandalism, which this obviously was not. Reviewing AFC subbmissions is great, we need those backlogs cleared put, but you should be able to recognize vandalism when you see it. Beeblebrox (talk) 07:22, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Attack pages must be deleted summarily, whether they originate from schoolmate teasing or something more serious. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:05, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Per the template itself, "If this template does not meet the criteria for speedy deletion, or you intend to fix it, please remove this notice, but do not remove this notice from pages that you have created yourself." I did not create the page.  Perhaps my wording (calling it contested) was incorrect, but the procedure of removing the template was entirely within established guidelines if the template is improperly applied.  An attack page is a page that attacks.  My logic would dictate that such would require both an attack (arguably present, see my last comment) and a target.  I disagreed with the tag in both respects.  The "attack" allegation might be sustainable if (and only if) it were made against a defined target.  A quick search at the US Social Security Administration shows the name "Addison" to have been within the top 13 female baby names since 2007.  Were there an indication of a last name, then it could properly be called an attack.  (To give a real-life example, a punch is only an attack if it either hits or is clearly intended by observers as intending to hit another person.  Punching open air, such as in celebration, is not an attack.)  As for the note on the talk page, it was inexorably tied to the validity of the CSD tag.  If the CSD is invalid, the note (which is formatted as a warning) is also invalid.  Further, note that the history of the user page in question did not show any previous warnings, supporting a stance of WP:AGF.  --Nouniquenames (talk) 05:37, 2 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I think you're taking things a bit too literally. We regularly delete "[insert some common first name] is a dweeb" and such, despite the fact that we don't know which individual is the recipient of this attention. It was quite clearly vandalism. Not necessarily hateful vandalism, quite possibly it was all in good fun, but it's not the type of thing we need to keep around in an encyclopedia for posterity. 28bytes (talk) 05:54, 2 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed. You might want to consider the possibilty that the admins here telling you handled this incorrectly know what we are talking about. The page was in no way a serious attempt at creating an encyclopedia article. It was at the very least vandalism although it can easily be considered an attack page despite your somewhat novel attempts to argue that it is not. As such the warning was entirely apprpriate and should not have been removed by anyone but the user whose page it was posted to. Relevant policy on that subject is at WP:TPO and reads, in part, ". The basic rule—with some specific exceptions outlined below—is that you should not edit or delete the comments of other editors without their permission." The CSD was valid, the warning was valid, your decline of the CSD nom and removal of the warning were incorrect. As such I have deleted the article and restored the warning. Those are the facts. I would hope you could accept that and learn from it instead of continuing to argue to keep obvious vandalism. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:37, 2 August 2012 (UTC)


 * My apologies, I was only looking to provide the logic behind my actions. --Nouniquenames (talk) 04:36, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

User:Sundostund
I would like to report this user since he no intentions to stop removing important part of article. In the article List of Presidents of Serbia hes non stop removing section Since independence i don't know whats problem Serbia gets there independence from Union of Serbia and Montenegro. That part should stay in article and the use is non stop removing with out explanations in my edits i explain to him but he refuse to listen. Snake bgd 13:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Sundostund blocked for ARBMAC-related edit warring, Snake bgd warned about edit warring and formal ARBMAC warning issued. Block and warning logged.  Toddst1 (talk) 22:09, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Sundostund
Proxied over to AN on behalf of the user Hasteur (talk) 16:36, 2 August 2012 (UTC) ''Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).''


 * Appealing user : – Sundostund (talk) 13:59, 2 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Sanction being appealed : Banned from editing for 1 week, for edit warring and breaching WP:ARBMAC rules


 * Administrator imposing the sanction :


 * Notification of that administrator : The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Notification.

Statement by Sundostund
I am completely aware that I made a mistake when I entered an edit war yesterday. I also know that I am blocked because I breached WP:ARBMAC rules. I completely recognize my guilt here. All of that was very stupid thing to do, and I promise that I will not continue to do that. If you look my edit history, you will see that I am not a vandal, but constructive member of this community, and that I only want to improve this encyclopedia. I just want an opportunity to continue my work here. Cheers! --Sundostund (talk) 13:59, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Toddst1
I support unblocking as editor has acknowledged issue and there is no indication that it will continue. Toddst1 (talk) 17:27, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Sundostund

 * This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Unblocked with the blocking admin's consent. You could have just done the unblocking yourself, you know... T. Canens (talk) 17:44, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

NPOV and politics interjected into List of British words not widely used in the United States‎
I recently removed "citations" from List of British words not widely used in the United States‎ that sought to define "backside" by making what seems to be a political slight at an American political candidate. I mentioned that these were not reliable sources as they were "op-eds" not facts (per WP:RS), that it wasn't a neutral portrayal (per WP:NPOV, and that Wikipedia is not a soapbox (WP:SOAPBOX). Independent of political sentiment, I assert that there likely infinite better sources and neutral explanations on the web to discuss the usage and interjecting politics in an apolitical article does not seem kosher or necessary. User:Mutt Lunker continues to add unreliable "citations" of various blogs as an inappropriate biased slight.  When I have removed them citing the above policies, he claims "they are relevant" and reverts.  I have advised him and other users of such on the article's talk page.  Because of the political nature of this, and the stubbornness, I believe this is an insidious form of vandalism.

Edits:
 * 1 - User:MattLunker's insertion:
 * 2 - My first removal of material:
 * 3 - User:PRL42 reverting:
 * 4 - My second removal of material:
 * 5 - User:MattLunker's reverting:

I will avoid reverting for a third time, and will instead, advised said users of this AN, place a vandalism warning on User:MattLunker's page, and put a tag to request protection on the article.

I ask the following intervention:
 * (1) Please advise the User(s) to not continue inserting NPOV political material into this article to elucidate points that can be better explained with nonpolitical material, per NPOV/SOAPBOX/RS
 * (2) If this behavior continues, appropriate sanctions to combat these anti-policy edits.

Thank you for your attention to this matter. --ColonelHenry (talk) 15:14, 2 August 2012 (UTC)


 * How is that entry an "an insidious form of vandalism" or even a "political slight at an American political candidate"? It seems to be a rather notable and well-sourced recent example of precisely the kind of difference in word usage that the article is about. And why is this even a matter for AN? --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:20, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * There's a discussion already on the talk page. Which is where this should be discussed, not here.  <span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;"> Hot Stop   15:27, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Further talk page discussion, I predict, would be futile. Users are intractably opposed and inclined to revert. Brought here because subtle political sentiments that are not necessary shouldn't be inserted into apolitical articles. There are better and myriad apolitical examples, they should be cited. Save the political discussion for articles on political issues. Unforunately, the behavior I'm bringing to admin attention seems to let the article turn into a battleground of political sentiment that I feel is inappropriate. --ColonelHenry (talk) 15:36, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh good grief! This doesn't warrant placement on the Administrators' noticeboard, which is for announcements, notices, and information of general administrator interest. At best you want a Third opinion and perhaps /Edit warring. It is certainly true that a huge dose of clue and knowledge of American English is called for. Do I have to point you to professor Spears' Dictionary of American Slang ? "backside" in this sense is a perfectly fine American word, used by NYT columnist Ben Brantley about an hour before I wrote this. Now get a grip the lot of you. Uncle G (talk) 18:01, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

User:Hopiakuta


Can someone tell me what exactly is this user doing? I've been looking over his history and he's taking a lot of non-existent pages and making them into redirects. Especially his edit summary is impossible to decipher. All I guess by this is that he's doing some sort of google bomb in association with these terms and his edits goes back years. Judging by his talk history, there hasn't been much notice at all about this habit. ViriiK (talk) 10:18, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * What is it you want an admin to do here exactly? You don't appear to have tried simply asking them. Beeblebrox (talk) 10:28, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Look at his edit history. I'm guessing he's manipulating wikipedia to his advantage to implement some sort of Google bomb or something similar.  ViriiK (talk) 10:34, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * While his edit summaries are incomprehensible, the redirects themselves look good to me. Have you tried contacting the editor? I've notified him of this discussion. Huon (talk) 10:50, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that this should have been brought up with the user before running to ANI with it, but if garbage like this and this and this is not SEO then I don't know what it is. See User talk:Hopiakuta/ index Samantha Geimer Lot Elizabeth Ann Smart Gilmour Deon Baptiste Ian Baptiste Emmett Louis Till Stanley Ann Dunham Anneke Frank Annele Frank Charles Augustus Lindbergh, which is the user's talk page before it was moved to a hidden sub-page in May. Nearly every edit since the middle of 2007 has been like this.

Is this something like the Sven70 situation? It looks that way, except there was no problem with Sven's articlespace edits, while these ones are indistinguishable from SEO spam to me. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:13, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Treat me like I'm dumb. I've been contributing to Wikipedia for years and I've read people's edit history which this was just the first time I've seen this long list of incomprehensible changes in the edit reasons.  I felt like there was some motive behind it like a google bomb or some form of SEO manipulation since the edit reasons do have links to the articles or redirects.  ViriiK (talk) 11:21, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Requesting some time, leaving a note with Xeno, who at one point was mentoring said user and might be able to shed light on this. - Penwhale &#124; dance in the air and follow his steps 11:30, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

You make up fantasy crimes that are not supported by evidence, then delete honest questions.

You have even made Uunartoq_Qeqertaq  inhabited, which is absolute nonsense.

hopiakuta  Please  do   sign  your  communiqu%c3%a9 .%7e%7eThank You,   DonFphrnqTaub  Persina. 11:40, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I never made up any "fantasy crimes". I simply said that your edit history is incomprehensible and it warranted my suspicion that there was some motive behind your edit reasons.  As for "Uunartoq Qeqertaq" where did I do that?  It never was inhabited in its entire history so it never was deserted in the first place.  How can you desert something if no one has lived there permanently?  ViriiK (talk) 11:44, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * (ec, responding to Penwhale:) Xeno seems to be inactive; I asked them about this some time ago (User talk:Xeno/Archive 29) and received no response. In view of talk page contributions that are ... inscrutable ... at best, maybe a preventative block is appropriate? If only because Hopiakuta appears unable to meaningfully communicate with others, which isn't good for a collaborative project like ours.  Sandstein   11:46, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The only reason how I came across you was because of http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stericycle&action=history where you made these modifications http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stericycle&diff=502742089&oldid=502714710 that made no sense whatsoever. The company, Stericycle, has nothing to do with any of these categories.  Can you explain how you come to these conclusions?  ViriiK (talk) 11:47, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

A desert island is uninhabited island is an island that had yet to be (or is not currently) populated by humans. Uninhabited islands are often used in movies or stories about shipwrecked people, and are also used as stereotypes for the idea of "paradise". Some uninhabited islands are protected as nature reserves and some are privately owned. Devon Island in Canada is claimed to be the largest uninhabited island in the world.

Small coral atolls or islands usually have no source of fresh water, but at times a fresh water lens (Ghyben-Herzberg lens) can be reached with a well.

Collaborative fraud.

I do not need to copy them all; this is from google:

Report: Romney made millions from investing in abortion related firm

article.wn.com/.../Report_Romney_made_millions_from_investing_i...

Jul 3, 2012 – Romney Invested In Abortion Cleanup Company Stericycle ..... $100000 and $250000 in the Bain Capital Asia fund that purchased Uniview.

hopiakuta  Please  do   sign  your  communiqu%c3%a9 .%7e%7eThank You,   DonFphrnqTaub  Persina. 11:55, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Didn't answer my question on the Stericycle changes. The modifications you made to Stericycle specifically with those categories did not belong there nor was there a valid reason to do so.  Also I reverted the changes from that IP address regarding Stericycle because Wikipedia is not a newspaper. WP:NOT  As for "Desert Island", I'm talking about this change I made specifically because you made this change http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Desert_island&diff=502406239&oldid=492458336 which you happened to include some non-related article's discussion on an already deleted article.  I don't care about the whole "desert island" (although you just answered your own question but I can say that this is a case of WP:COMPETENCE).  I'm calling into question how do you come to bring unrelated stuff into the talk pages or any article anywhere on wikipedia?  Doing investigation of my own, I assume you own a site called altacalifernia.com and altacaliferne.com which thankfully is broken although your name is implicated in the broken links. Chrome actually prevents me from going via to the redirect site but in the link it says var/chroot/home/content/h/o/p/hopiaku/html/htttp://reltime2012.ru/frunleh?9  However had it properly worked Chrome actually let me visited the site, it redirects I would have been sent to a malware website.  I'm suspecting that you are doing SEO manipulation on google or some other website to redirect users to malware websites.  ViriiK (talk) 12:07, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Your argument is too convoluted & I have not the slightest knowledge how to do most of what you have described, let alone the intent.

that had yet to be (or is not currently) populated by humans.

hopiakuta  Please  do   sign  your  communiqu%c3%a9 .%7e%7eThank You,   DonFphrnqTaub  Persina. 13:00, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * So you're saying that you don't own these websites despite the fact you linked them in your talk pages (which I've removed) but are now malware redirects? ViriiK (talk) 13:09, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Frankly, a few minutes looking at this user's 'contributions' reveals that regardless of the motivation for making them, they are gibberish. On that basis, a permanent block per WP:COMPETENCE looks a foregone conclusion. Trying to figure out what is behind this is an irrelevance. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:17, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Egads. Block this nonsensical user now so that the cleanup can begin, i.e. "Condo Rice" redirects to Condoleeza Rice, "Mars Won" to Mars One, etc... Tarc (talk) 13:24, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * He also has the following sockpuppet accounts which are: User:persina & User:Kutahopia ViriiK (talk) 13:33, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Neither account seems to have been used since 2007. I suspect they were never intended for socking - they should likewise be blocked, per WP:COMPETENCE, which is the only relevant issue. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:38, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I understand that. I would also cite the case of WP:ELNO because his sites which he's linked (all of which I have removed) were redirects to malware websites.  He can't simply claim that he doesn't own them since the registration is still intact and not going to expire until 2013.  The links were inserted in his sockpuppet account & his own account including external wikipedia sites.  See:, , ,  ViriiK (talk) 13:50, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I have blocked and his alternate accounts indefinitely because the above contributions show that they lack the ability to communicate (and, at least to an extent, edit) meaningfully.  Sandstein  13:45, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * If I may comment in place of Xeno, as I followed some of the mentoring he has done with Hopiakuta at the time. Hopiakuta is a user with good faith, who is suffering form some kind of disability. If I remember correctly, Myofascial pain syndrome, probably blindness - and maybe more. He seems to be using outdated assistive technologies. It's very difficult for him to participate, but he seems to be attached to it very much.
 * I understand your choice to ban this user, as collaboration with him is difficult. But I fear it might be a harsh decision for him. The least thing to do would be to treat him as a person with good faith, and not a vandal. Cheers, Dodoïste (talk) 14:41, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I fully endorse this block. I attempted to communicate with this user in the past and they not only ignored me, but removed their talk page history by moving their talk page to this ridiculous title. This suggests unwillingness to edit helpfully (or at least incompetence), but the links to malware suggest malice. How exactly do you accidentally link to malware sites? Even if somehow this is all an innocent misunderstanding due to their disability, Wikipedia is not therapy, and their disruptive editing should not be allowed to continue.-<font color="#000">Running <font color="#00F">On <font color="#080">Brains (talk) 16:03, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't recall any links to malware in previous AN/I threads or in my previous "interactions" with him. Perhaps his computer is infected.  Otherwise, I believe the situation is unchanged from that point, in which (IIRC) close monitoring and mentoring was recommended, essentially per WP:COMPETENCE.  If mentoring isn't working I see no other choice.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 16:27, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I also don't see any other solution than to block him at the moment. The mentoring seemed to work as long as Xeno was around. If I was near from Hopiakuta in real life I would do the mentoring, or do something to help, as I have experience in the field. But from a distance, and through the obscure Wikipedia discussion system, it seems hardly feasible to me. I feel sad for him, but can't do much. Dodoïste (talk) 16:42, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Not to open a can of worms, and it is quite possible (likely even) that these are two different people, but the behavior of creating meaningless redirects is exactly what Bowei Huang (and all of his incarnations) eventually got indeffed/banned for. I think his most recent account was User:Bowei Huang 2, which clearly shows the redirect creation situation.  Now, something in the patterns of speech doesn't match exactly for me, so I'm not convinced of the connection, but given the similar MOs here, I thought it worthwhile to bring up.  Any thoughts or ideas?  -- Jayron  32  02:51, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure; it could be, but I'm getting the same sense that the communication styles aren't quite a fit. The other banned user I can think of is Shakinglord, as I remember at least one of his socks going around creating redirects like Bling Crosby, but that doesn't quite seem like a match either.  In short, you might be onto something, but I have the same pangs of doubt as you. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 04:15, 18 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The problem for me isn't really the redirects: it's the addition of nonsensical "similar" words to see also sections, the way that all edit summaries consist exclusively of these chains of mechanically similar words, and that nearly all other edits (stretching back for years with seemingly no break) are completely incomprehensible garbage. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 08:36, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Though I haven't currently got the time to go back through the AN/AN/I archives to link to diffs, I've got to say I am struck by the decrease in compassion, empathy, and AGF displayed in this forum. In earlier discussions, while editors and admins were equally conflicted about what the best course of action might be, at least they showed some desire to help this user work within WP policies. Earlier discussions took into account not only Hopiakuta's unknown disabilities, but also the ancient technologies he's forced to use; editors actually tried to conceive of workarounds and assists for him, all with the goal of making it possible for him to continue editing. Now, even though he hasn't been brought up here for a while, he's immediately accused of being a bad-faith user, a vandal, a sock, or some sort of evil entity. His contributions, rather than being viewed through the lens of his own experiences and abilities, are immediately disparaged as "garbage" and "gibberish". Even if these contributions are NOT up to article standards, the fact remains that they are good-faith contributions from a good-faith user; even if we can't keep them, they represent effort on his part (probably more effort than we can even know) and shouldn't be mocked or insulted. I'm not saying Hopiakuta is likely to become a model editor; sadly, I'll even concede that his combined challenges may make it impossible for him to continue editing at all. But there's no reason at all to make hostile assumptions about his intent, nor to disparage or dismiss his efforts at contributing. I believe there's a very strong connection between the kind of baseline hostility level shown here and the slow hemmorhage of established contributors; fortunately for all concerned, I haven't got time to go on about THAT, either. But show some compassion, people. (And Dodoiste, thank you.) GJC 17:57, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not therapy and Competence is required. Helping out fellow users is laudable, and something I do whenever possible, but we're not here to hold hands or enable the disadvantaged, we're here to build an encyclopedia.   If smart people proceeding from a stance of assuming good faith cannot make heads or tails of what an editor is saying, then the editor shouldn't be contributing here, because the net result is indistinguishable from vandalism or trolling.  I'm sorry if that's rude or appears to be lacking in compassion, but that's just the way it must be.  Our energy needs to go into writing and improving an encyclopedia, not into providing social services to the disabled.  If the latter is what  one is interested in, there are any number of worthy projects and organizations one can work with. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:32, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
 * If you'll re-read what I posted, you'll find that I did not suggest that anyone "hold hands", "provide social services", or anything else along those lines, nor did I contradict either Wikipedia is not therapy or Competence is required.
 * What I DID suggest was that we stop implying bad faith, sockpuppetry, vandalism, trollery, malice, Googlebombing, SEO manipulation, and complicity in the downfall of Western civilization; and instead see this for what it is: a good-faith user who, for a combination of reasons, seems unable to make encyclopedic contributions to Wikipedia. I am not saying that we must accept contributions that the majority of readers would find difficult to comprehend; I am not saying that this user should be coddled, babied, or condescended to (in fact, if I recall correctly, that's like a brief catalog of ways to piss this user off.) What I -AM- saying is, just because you don't understand someone, that doesn't mean that person is malicious; it's always better to assume good intentions even if the result falls short of your standards; don't accuse people til you have SOLID evidence; and if you have to "fire" an editor, there's no need to parade along behind him as he leaves, telling him his contributions were "garbage". In other words: be kind. I'm not sure why that's such a difficult thing to do. GJC  07:33, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Please unblock this user. They have been editing in good faith since 2006. Every year or so, a user like ViriiK comes around and starts wondering what is going on without knowing the backstory and tries to get Hopiakuta blocked because the only way users like ViriiK know how to deal with something strange or different is to eliminate it. That's very sad, but typical of human nature. Hopiakuta's contribution history shows that the user has made constructive edits for six years now. The "let's block first and then find out what's going on" reaction is really not appropriate. Please do the due diligence. Viriditas (talk) 01:18, 23 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Wiki-gnoming for half a decade doesn't outweigh... what ever this sort of thing is, sorry. There's a fundamental lack of an capability to communicate here, and it is ridiculous to demand that an entire project bend backwards to cater to one person in this manner. Life sucks. Tarc (talk) 01:36, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I do not see that a person who makes easily identifiable & correctable mistakes seriously harms the encyclopedia. I think we are right in trying to be just a little more charitable than the world in general when we can act collectively. It might compensate for the unfortunate tendency of all too many individual Wikipedians to be less friendly than the expectations of that world.  DGG ( talk ) 03:09, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * First off, saying "the only way users like ViriiK know how to deal with something strange or different is to eliminate it" is uncalled for. Second, you've made a contradiction: somehow, ViriiK doesn't know the backstory, yet he does this "every year or so?"
 * If you can explain the situation, I'm all for it, but this isn't exactly helping things. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 22:23, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You're having reading comprehension problems. I said "every year or so, a user like ViriiKnot" does this, not the user does this.  Huge difference. This evidence is fully supported by the AN and AN/I reports and block logs. Evidence is neither  "uncalled for" nor a personal attack.  It might be time for you to look at the block logs and the associated noticeboard reports.  That hopiakuta is still blocked speaks volumes about the Wikipedia community, which I'm sad to report, I've lost all respect for. Viriditas (talk) 02:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Straight to the ad-homs, nice. I did miss the like, you're correct; that does not give you license to go straight to the insults. Your comment that was uncalled for was stating that users (and ViriiK in particular) just try to get rid of things that are "different." You weren't discussing evidence, you were just disparaging another user.
 * As to your comment about your level of respect for "the community:" "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn." &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 12:36, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It's directly discussing the evidence—evidence that apparently you refuse to look at when pointed to it. Users like  ViriiK have reported hopiakuta over and over again for this same thing, assuming bad faith the entire time, and the reports and blocks show that. There is no ad hominem or insult here at all.  It's perfectly obvious you don't give a damn, which is why I have no respect for users like you. You've never commented about the discussion or Hopiakuta at all; instead you've gone on and on about your own personal misinterpretations of what you think someone might have said instead of what was actually said and what the evidence shows. Those type of comments are quite distracting and annoying and pretty much demonstrate the problem with the community.  Instead of getting down to brass tacks and investigating the problem, you've created your own.  What an incredible waste of time!  You're good at generating drama and distracting the discussion, but poor on reading what others are saying and understanding what you've read. Viriditas (talk) 19:28, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Now there's the pot calling the kettle black. I understand, I simply disagree with you. That it drives you to such vitriol & self-proclaimed superiority just tells me you need a break. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 16:23, 28 July 2012 (UTC)


 * If you two are done snarking at each other, perhaps we can get back to the question at hand. I strongly believe unblocking Hopiakuta is a good idea, because:
 * They are operating in good faith; comments about SEO or trolling or trying to infect others with Malware are 100% off target
 * Historically, most of their edits have been useful
 * Those that aren't really useful (like some of the recent redirects) are not really harmful either, and can be fixed fairly easily.
 * If you make the effort to understand what Hopiakuta is saying, you will see that they are often correct on the underlying issue
 * If you don't want to make the effort to understand what Hopiakuta is saying, you can ignore them without harming yourself, or the encyclopedia.
 * It's good for us to have some good faith editors with a very non-mainstream approach. Helps avoid groupthink.
 * I'm not around enough to replace Xeno as a mentor (for lack of a better word), but am willing to look in from time to time, or be pinged by someone with questions. Looks like one or two others in this thread might be willing as well. That seems a better way to go. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:28, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I do not believe that unblocking an editor who is simply not able to communicate with others in an understandable manner - as their continued contributions indicate - is beneficial to the project. We are a collaborative project, and without communication, no collaboration is possible.  Sandstein   06:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * "...simply not able to communicate with others in an understandable manner..." is an unhelpful exaggeration. If this is your sole rationale for the block, then you should unblock. --Floquenstein&#39;s monster (talk) 18:13, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment I came upon this user's condition and block totally by accident and decided to look into their history. I  believe the editors above arguing his case have raised very important points and I agree with them totally. If Wikipedia is a collaborative project, then that means working together as a team to built an encyclopedia, from all experiences and knowledge regardless of disability, ethnicity, religious beliefs, gender, etc. Someone who may not be a "meanstream editor", can certainly bring a different dimension and add something of value to the project, knowledge which others do not possess. Blocking them on the grounds of their limitations (which is exactly what is happening here) is contracdictory  to the spirit of Wikipedia. Yes, Wikipedia is not a therapy, and a certain degree of competency is required, however, this editor seems to have been doing well when he was under the mentorship of Xeno. If other editors who have interacted with him are willing to assist, then I find no justifiable reason for not unblocking this user. To my understanding, "colaboration", in order to build an encyclopedia of knowledge is the spirit of Wiki. Although other policies are very important, they are secondary to what Wiki was originally meant for. I stand corrected if I am wrong in my analysis. And for the record, I undertand exactly what Hopiakuta is saying because I want to know, and have taken the time to understand it. In that regard, I agree pretty much with  Floquenbeam. Tamsier (talk) 09:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Oppose the block. It's not that hard to understand this user. I've been reading through a lot of archives and past discussions for a few hours regarding this user and the problem isn't in his edits, which are usually good, but with his communication. That's the same reason for this block and discussion. From what I can piece together, his problem is antiquated equipment combined with several disabilities. His contribution is mostly redirects which are nearly always kept and is useful. He's been contributing for at least 6 years with over 6000 edits and in that time there have been few incidents taken to this and other noticeboards. He's definitely a benefit to Wikipedia and I don't think the difficulty to communicate with him is a good enough reason, since it's not impossible to piece together what he's saying. Acoma Magic (talk) 06:39, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've been looking over their remarks on their talk page, and I can't make any sense out of it at all. The only thing I can say for sure is that they have not provided a coherent reson they should be unblocked. If they can't or won't do that, even with help, I can't say unblocking them sounds like a good idea. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:35, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Should it be the proper time to restrict access to the talk page by now? He seems to be playing around with it as much as he did to articles and other talk pages.— Ryulong (<font color="Gold">竜龙 ) 23:32, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No. I'm having a conversation with him, and he's not disrupting anything. --Floquenstein&#39;s monster (talk) 23:58, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Only on Wikipedia is communicating with another user considered "disruption". Viriditas (talk) 02:33, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think your conversation includes this addition to the section title or whatever these edits concern.— Ryulong (<font color="Gold">竜龙 ) 02:44, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * And, there's nothing wrong with those edits. Viriditas (talk) 02:47, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Since I just realized that this user was being debated again to unblock this user. I wasn't informed that Viriditas was questioning why I reported this user.  Even though his edit history was odd, I found in his contribution history that he operated malicious websites all of which he had linked here at Wikipedia.  They were his own websites that were redirect loops to a malware websites see :, , , .  Also his own websites apparently mirrored articles of Wikipedia which if a user on the internet had come across one of his articles, they would have been sent to the malware website.  WP:ELNO applies here.  He claimed that he doesn't have the expertise to operate them but I find that odd since he still owns those websites and still linked them here recently.  If he wants to truly get unblock, he needs to fix his websites first and remove the redirect loops to malware websites.  ViriiK (talk) 09:08, 30 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Support the block. Linking to malware is terrible.  Doing it repeatedly with signs that you control the links and/or the malware is absolutely not the kind of behavior that can be tolerated here, even if the editor was perfectly capable of communicating and a big-time large-scale contributor.  --Nouniquenames (talk) 01:24, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm planning on unblocking Hopiakuta in a little while. There is no consensus here for a block, nor for an unblock, and it's just dragging on and on now.  Lack of consensus about a block should default to unblock.  I have a great deal of respect for Xeno, and believe that if he was still active this whole mess would likely not have happened.  Because this is not a case of an inappropriate block, I'll agree to "own" the unblock, and will keep an eye on Hopiakuta's contributions, and will step in if necessary. It is possible a future block might become necessary, but I hope not.  I think the accusations of intentional linking to malware are seriously uncool, but agree that links to that page shouldn't be re-added, accidental though it may have been (see Hopiakuta's explanation on his talk page). --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:41, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * One of the diffs mentioned above is mine. That may have been my first interaction with them, and I did call that 'gibberish'; in the context of its place, an article talk page, I believe (and still do) that it was justified to revert. If memory serves me right, I tried to engage the user on their (a?) talk page--one of the ones with a really long name, and I can't find it in the history of the 'regular' talk page. I talked this over with Floquenbeam as well, and concluded that I personally couldn't make heads or tails of it and that, as long as the user wasn't making such odd edits in mainspace, that I should leave it alone, which I did, and that if I didn't understand something it isn't necessarily the other party that's at fault. I don't understand the antiquated machinery argument--but that came from Xeno, whom I consider to be older and wiser than me. Floq, you probably mentioned the word "mentoring" in those conversations as well. I know little or nothing about malware and will leave that to the experts--in the meantime, I don't think this is something the community can't handle in other ways than blocking and am content with Floq's unblock. Drmies (talk) 04:22, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * < http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=user_talk:hopiakuta&diff=505044401&oldid=505030811 >.

hopiakuta  Please  do   sign  your  communiqu%c3%a9 .%7e%7eThank You,   DonFphrnqTaub  Persina. 06:00, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * don't know how anyone can even pretend they are able to have a coherent conversation with this user. If Floq is somehow able to parse some meaning out of this cryptic weirdndes, I hope they are ready to act as a translator so that those of us that can find no meaning whatsoever in the majority of this users comments are not left wondering how they translate into some sort of understandable English. This is a collaborative project. It is difficult to colanorate with someone who is basically speaking their own language and often seems not to have even read comments before replying to them. Beeblebrox (talk) 07:10, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that is likely quite true, as even my grammar,  punctuation,  syntax,  spelling, et al, are completely different, & I never read anything on this page, as I cannot; I am incapable.


 * the “love point” (point d’amour: point d'amour.svg)
 * the “certitude point” (point de conviction: Point de conviction.svg)
 * the “authority point” (point d’autorité: point d'autorité.svg)
 * the “acclamation point” (point d’acclamation: point d'acclamation.svg)
 * the “doubt point” (point de doute: point de doute.svg)

hopiakuta  Please  do   sign  your  communiqu%c3%a9 .%7e%7eThank You,   DonFphrnqTaub  Persina. 07:50, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Whereas this is internet, I do opt for «  cryptic   wiredness » & rather than «  colanorate », I do try to «  colonorate » with this  okole   cabal.

hopiakuta  Please  do   sign  your  communiqu%c3%a9 .%7e%7eThank You,   DonFphrnqTaub  Persina. 08:30, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * So you edit with "cryptic wiredness" by choice? The okole cabal is not pleased.--Atlan (talk) 09:45, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Linking to malware, says he is "incapable" of reading this page but responds to posts here anyway, and states that he's trying to be difficult to understand... why are we still debating this? I'm sympathetic to those with disabilities, but this is just intentional trolling. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 13:30, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I do find that ψ  is on the  punctuation  page; but, does not link to  irony_punctuation, which does amount to its own ψ. Anyhow, you do pretend to not comprehend the ψ that in each very accusation comment, you contradict that accusation with other evidence.

I have not crossed much more ocean than to drown, so, therefore, I only, likely, know American English, which, I think, is  devoid  of «  weirdndes  », «  colanorate  », as is this website, other than this  webpage. Please do quit the pretense.

I am not capable of your « ...grammar, punctuation,  syntax,  spelling, et al,... » which I have said, is true, & is ψ.

I have no idea how to create malware  @ all. What I know about these machines is entirely by trial & error, except that, a few times, people have shown me where is the  electric power button, as well as some of the other relatively tiny  minuscule  elements of operation.

Your sympathetic  is certainly stated in the further irony.

hopiakuta  Please  do   sign  your  communiqu%c3%a9 .%7e%7eThank You,   DonFphrnqTaub  Persina. 15:15, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I...what? Look, I'm sympathetic to how annoying and sometimes error-prone disability-accomodating software and such can be. Something like that could explain the formatting, the weird linking habits, etc. But The complete lack of sense in these comments alarms me. I just looked over your most recent article edits, Hopiakuta, and it looks to me like those (and their edit summaries) don't make much more sense than your talk comments. Now that Floq has unblocked you, you need to really, really make an effort here - and again, I acknowledge that that might be a pain in the ass to do, depending on what technical accommodations you use - to make yourself understandable. As much as many people are willing to accommodate and help you, we can only do that if you give us something to work with. If you remain incomprehensible to all but two or three people on the entire project, the good we're assuming you can do here is going to end up outweighed by the fact that no one can make sense of the good. P.S. Your signature is sort of a disaster...any chance you're willing to neaten it up so it's shorter and links more prominently to your userpage and talkpage? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:39, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, I know that millions, even billions, like to call disabled troll; but, much like my opinion of  niggerhead,  kike, et al, I do  interpret  it as equally  racist,......  handicappist,  handicappism. Each of these can, only, be justified either by linguistic  commentary or by a truly excellent  pun.

Also, I have, accurately, stated my name for six years, including @: user_talk:hopiakuta/editnotice.

hopiakuta  Please  do   sign  your  communiqu%c3%a9 .%7e%7eThank You,   DonFphrnqTaub  Persina. 15:40, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The unblock by Floquenbeam of Hopiakuta is disruptive, in that it went against the consensus expressed in this discussion, and also in that it enables Hopiakuta to continue making edits that many editors have considered to be problematic at best, while at the same time being incapable or unwilling of communicating meaningfully. Frankly, anybody who writes this amount of pure nonsense is either considerably mentally disabled or a troll; in either case they should not contribute to a project that contains much-read biographies of living persons. I consider Floquenbeam to be personally responsible for any continued disruption on the part of Hopiakuta.  Sandstein   16:18, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * @Sandstein, please focus on the facts. Expressing your opinion is a good thing for the project. Uncivil comments affects everyone's moral, thus its harms the community. It also a waste of characters. :-) You don't seem to know what a "considerably mentally disabled" person is. From my experience as a student in occupational therapy, such people are absolutely unable to edit a complex website such as Wikipedia - even most normal people don't figure out how it works. Let alone using such a varitey of words, complex sentences, jokes, and cynical humor. According to your definition, I would be mentally handicapped myself.
 * I'm not against nor in favor of a block, as interaction does seem difficult. Just remain fair. For now, there is no consensus to block him so he should stay unblocked. As for taking people's time, I guess this whole AN/I affair did take more time than Xeno gave to mentor Hopiatuka. So let's move on and put our brains to more rewarding tasks. Cheers, Dodoïste (talk) 17:49, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Was expecting to be near a computer this morning but I'm not. Will comment at AN in a couple hours. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:46, 31 July 2012 (UTC) (copied from user's talk page.) Chedzilla (talk) 16:52, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure the unblocking was necessarily wrong, but I also do support the initial blocking for the hassle alone - while those familiar with the editor can ignore the weirdness, there are many other editors on the project who are not familiar with it. That this seems to come up again and again is evidence of that, and of the time wasted each time as someone else tries to make sense of it, and that's just the times the matter makes it here. Plenty, myself included, have wound up on one of the various and bizarre talkpages for some reason or other, gotten a response that was at best confusing and more often just plain nonsensical, and brought in others to see if they could figure it out... before finally just giving up and leaving. Now I suppose we could mandate a large sign on the userpage or something saying 'this user makes no sense; ignore it', but that... I dunno, just seems kind of wrong.
 * Point is, while I believe those who say he means well, the fact of the matter remains that if the assistive technology is so lacking and the editor himself doesn't care, then there is a problem here regardless of intent. It is affecting other people, and I'm not so sure the good edits do make up for it in light of some of the more recent weirdness as well as the cleanup in general that is oft required, and the much confusion that results even when it isn't. -— Isarra ༆ 17:05, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is a matter of the assistive technology failing. What I can garner out of these bizzarre comments is that this user doesn't care that we cannot understand them and is deliberately making vague replies that seem to be an attempt to show how clever they really are. Disability is not the issue here or I would be completely on the other side of it. Being arrogant and self centered knows no race, gender, creed, or level of physical or mental ability. There is a long established precendent on this site that at some point we quit babying people who cannot or will not effectively communicate with others. Floq chose to ignore that precedent, and as I'm sure he is fully aware he has the second mover advantage in his pocket now. Of course he also used his admin tools in a situation he is bery much directly involved in since he was the principle advocte for unblocking. I stronlgy suggest that he re-instate the block, with no comment on its merit if he likes, and allow an impartial uninvolved party to determine what, if any, consensus is reflected in this discsussion. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:41, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've read through a lot regarding this user and the problem is poor assistive technology combined with several disabilities. He's not trolling or being intentional difficult. According to him, typing normally as we do causes a lot of pain. He's obviously using some sort of equipment to edit in this way, the best he can. Unless his edits on the whole damage Wikipedia, then difficulty communicating with him is a weak argument for blocking. Acoma Magic (talk) 19:10, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I've advised Hopiakuta not to post anymore to this thread, so claims of "disrupting WP:AN" shouldn't happen anymore. Claims that he is disrupting his user page by posting things there that some can't understand make no sense.  Claims of disrupting the actual encyclopedia will have to wait and see what happens. I hope not.


 * I have never interacted with Hopiakuta before this thread started; I am not previously involved with him. I made very clear the rationale for the unblock; it wasn't because there was consensus for an unblock, but there was no consensus either way, which should default to an unblock. I am no more involved in this than Sandstein; he was a principle advocate for blocking, and then did so, and it would be silly to fault him for that.  I deserve the same, though I don't expect it.


 * It seems unproductive to continue the part of this thread about whether Hopiakuta's past editing was disruptive. I've given him another chance, and I suggest we see what happens.  I've added my name to the big sign at the top of his page, so if someone is puzzled by something he does, hopefully they will ask me to help clarify, if I can.


 * Obviously I think the part of this thread about what a bad faith, disruptive, involved admin I am should die too, but if people feel there is some new viewpoint not yet expressed, I'll continue to read every word of it, and reply where appropriate. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:12, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Good unblock. All that is different is not wrong; if posting odds things in talk space is grounds for blocking I've got a long list of editors... Nobody Ent 20:02, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not "different" that's the problem. I've worked with people using accessibility software to help them type before. This? He seems to be deliberately obtuse, combined with "

I am not capable of your « ...grammar, punctuation,  syntax,  spelling, et al,... » which I have said, is true, & is ψ."
 * Where ψ, if I'm parsing correctly, is supposed to indicate sarcasm. So, it's both true and sarcasm... uh, okay.
 * Not going to contest the unblock, but my AGF has run out on this one. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 20:11, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Is there a reason his signature has to take up a whole line on the screen, too? That's a bit unnecessary because it has absolutely nothing to do with his disability and it's just disruptive.— Ryulong (<font color="Gold">竜龙 ) 23:51, 31 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm more than happy to support Floq's efforts here. While I admit that on first read, Hopiakuta's discussions are difficult for /me/ to follow - if another editor is willing to work with someone to bring them into an acceptable editing style, then I fully support that effort. Chedzilla (talk) 10:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This discussion has gotten a bit long, so I could see how you missed the point that this has already been tried. It didn't work. I deal with disabled people on a daily basis at my job. I can't see how any disability or flawed assistaive technology can explain a reply   like the one above, with all the nonsense about  "the love point" etc. This is a user who is deliberately not communicating clearly because they don't want to and they are blaming it on a disability because it's an easy thing to hind behind if you want sympathy. And of course he cries discrimination when it is pointed out. is it discrimination that we do not allow blind people drive cars? Is it discrimination that deaf people cannot find work as telephone operators? Is it discrimination when a quadrepalegic cannot get a job as a bicycle messenger? No. It is also not discrimination when we tell someone who refuses to even try and commuicate in a sensible fashion that they cannot be part of a collaborative project that relies on commmunication to accomplish its goals.I remain convinced that this is a problem of their own making. Plenty of folks with very serious disabilities manage to particpate here without such issues.   Beeblebrox (talk) 20:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, you might be right on the spot - although we can't really know for sure. But Hopiatuka's contributions in article space seems to be okay at a first glance. I still don't see a good reason for a block. Cheers, Dodoïste (talk) 22:09, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * There's still stuff like usurping this AN report and turning it into a scratchpad to get sorted out. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:20, 3 August 2012 (UTC)


 * 6 years is a long time to troll. Acoma Magic (talk) 23:52, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * This thread has been open more than 2 weeks. We may all disagree on whether Hopiakuta has been "disruptive" in the past, but he is not currently disrupting anything, and the unblock seems not to have resulted in catastrophe, and I'll do my best to take over Xeno's spot going forward. At this point, every casual comment in this thread resets the archive clock back to 48 hours.  Can we please either (a) close this (obviously I can't/won't do this myself), (b) rename this thread to "Floquenbeam is disruptive and unfit to be an admin", since that is the only conceivable remaining issue, or (c) at least sign but not date our comments, so this can finally be put to bed in 2 days? Floquenbeam (talk) (fourteen thirty-six Aug 3rd)

Wikipedia talk:Edit filter permissions requests
My own request and someone else's request have not been answered by anyone there. Can there be eyes on that page?--Jasper Deng (talk) 18:27, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Question about protection
I have just fully protected Syria for a week as a result of an content dispute. However, the article was previously semi-protected until October because of persistent vandalism. I have no intention to remove the semi-protection that is already in place, as the full protection is for a different, shorter-term issue. However, when the protection expires, the semi-protection will also be lost (as happened at Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories). Is there a way to prevent the current semi-protection from expiring when full protection expires? If not, is it worth talking to the developers about? Thanks. ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 15:37, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The logical solution would obviously be to reinstate the semi-protection once the full protection has expired. I take it you're specifically looking for a technical peripheral where you can fully protect an article for a specified period of time, and upon its expiration will revert to semi-protection until a pre-determined date? I'm thinking it might actually be a good idea to speak with the developers about exploring the ramifications of enabling such a feature.  Master&amp;  Expert ( Talk ) 01:38, 2 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It is manual Zippy. I'm guessing they are different states of the same bit, not different bits, so you are changing the state, not adding a new state.  That comes up all too often, actually, and you have to remember to check back later,  read the log, apply the semi-protection back, etc.  It is not an optimal system. Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;   Join WER 13:49, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the replies. I thought it might be manual; that's annoying. ItsZippy (talk • contributions) 15:13, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Sock puppetry Notice
I have already reported User:J77890 in the sock investigation archive of User:Mughal Lohar here. But no action has been taken from last two days. Request for a quick action. Milescoast.wiki (talk) 06:22, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That's because you edited the archive and nobody noticed. If you have evidence of sockpuppetry, please file a case at WP:SPI. Thanks ​—DoRD (talk)​ 11:04, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Hello? Votes, anyone? Please read!
I'm posting this here because this is one of Wikipedia's most public pages, and there's not really a general community noticeboard, at least as far as I know. I'm not trying to canvass; what I'm doing is kind of like relisting an AfD discussion and linking to it in a very public place so a consensus can be reached. I'm holding a vote on the top 10 lamest edit wars in all of Wikipedia's history, but only one editor has voted in almost a month. See here: Wikipedia talk:Department of Fun. I just want people to vote, that's all. Thank you. C h r o m a Nebula  (talk)   02:03, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it would be more appropriate to post this over at the village pump. You could also post it over on Wikipedia talk:Lamest edit wars.—Yutsi Talk/  Contributions  ( 偉特 ) 05:11, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Help needed
Rather than post this at several noticeboards, I was wondering if an administrator could help with the vandalism described at Australian Wikipedians' notice board. A number of editors, it seems have been doing some tag-team vandalism. At least, it looks like vandalism - it involves page moves and creating purposely ambiguous categories, in an effort to make University of Newcastle (Australia) take precedence over University of Newcastle (disambiguation). The cut and paste moves have been reverted, but I was wondering if anyone could do a speedy merge of the recently created Category:University of Newcastle into Category:University of Newcastle (Australia). I ask this here because there is no such thing as a speedy merge at WP:CFD (only speedy moves), and a category created by vandals shouldn't have to go through a long process in order to be deleted. StAnselm (talk) 06:13, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Note that there is also a thread on this at ANI. --Rschen7754 06:15, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Requests for adminship/StuRat
I wanted to nominate StuRat, as I am impressed with his answers. but, he hasn't responded to this nomination (And, his contributions show that he has seen notification on talk page) Therefore I am asking any admin to delete that page. Thank you. GiantBluePanda (talk) 20:55, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I've asked on his talk page for him to explicitly accept or decline the nom. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:13, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Java code to stop me from logging in
Hello. Please, place in the java code that stops me from logging in for at least two years. I want to go on a break.--Kazemita1 (talk) 21:30, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know that such a thing exists. However there are a few admins, including myself, who are willing to consider self-requested blocks. My conditions for doing so are rather limited, you can see them at User:Beeblebrox/Self-blocking requirements. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:40, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Assuming that Kazemita1 meant to say "javascript", there is a temporary wikibreak enforcing script that can be placed in one's common.js here. →<font color="#BA0000">Σ <font color="#036">σ <font color="#036">ς . 22:09, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is indeed what I meant. Please, go ahead and do so.--Kazemita1 (talk) 00:30, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Enjoy your break, Kazemita1. Jafeluv (talk) 06:03, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Unblock request from Kmarinas86
<div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color: #edeaff; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">
 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.

filed an unblock request on UTRS. I believe this request would benefit from more input, so I'm placing it here with permission of the user in its entirety:
 * Why do you believe you should be unblocked?
 * I am sorry for disclosing personal information I disclosed about a certain individual, which I orginally intended to be a way to show that this person was not a shill. It upset me that this individual was being construed by another peson as someone that, in my opinion, he is not. What came after that I did not expect at all. The person who I was trying to establish correctly the identity of, surprisingly to me, did not appreciate what I did. Out of some sort of desperation, I lashed out at the other person who I felt was bearing false witness on this guy. Well, that is in the past, and I want to show that I can return to being the polite Wikipedia editor that I have been for years. Sincerely, Kevin Marinas
 * If you are unblocked, what articles do you intend to edit?
 * Raelism articles
 * Various math articles
 * Automation articles
 * other articles which I have edited in the past.
 * Is there anything else you would like us to consider when reviewing your block?
 * You may look at my previous edits on Wikipedia, which are many thousands. What I did as of recently was an abberation, partially carried from some real life problems with some family members, who don't feel confident about my financial risks that I have chosen to take with my present employer. This argumentative behavior caused me a kind of passing angst, because I do not regret the risks I have taken. I wish the best of my future relationship with the members of Wikipedia. Sincerely, Kevin Marinas

I know nothing of the case myself, so input from people who are more in the know would be welcome. I find the request in itself to be reasonable. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 22:41, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
 * works for me. Unblock

. Nobody Ent 01:27, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I have no qualms with an unblock if the user realises that what he did was wrong (which he seems to). — foxj 14:49, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Same here. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:39, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree with foxj. — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ? 15:46, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I have no problems with the user being unblocked. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 15:48, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I've unblocked them, this is more discussion than most unblock requests ever get, and we've got the blocking admin agreeing to it. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:02, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Non-admin edits to Wikipedia:List of banned users
For discussion - there is not currently any ban or protection on non-administrator edits to the list of banned users. Obviously much mischief over long term scales could be caused by misinformation there, and its more than usually sensitive to conflict behaviors.

Should we be considering protection at some level? Or is watchlist monitoring "enough"? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:13, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I would consider watchlist monitoring. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:15, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

No need for non-admins to edit that page. Full protect it. Administrators can update it at the same time as they close the discussion that results in the ban. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:17, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Adminship is only extra tools not any special trust. Why would you full protect a page and encourage such a position? Adminship is no big deal. 65.96.75.57 (talk) 02:25, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I would think that it would be an admin only page, although I don't know if there is a hard rule, simply because blocks and ban determination tend to be admin functions, and it is easy to make a good faith mistake. It is about accountability.  And IP, quoting Jimbo on "not a big deal" doesn't make it true.  This is one of the biggest websites in the world, so there is some responsibility involved and required.  Quoting that is very 2002 of you.  Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;   Join WER 02:42, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * (ec) Well what is the page? Is it a list of banned users, or is it a place to add whatever thought you want to add about a particular banned user on a particular day? If it's just a list of banned users, then only administrators can close a discussion with that outcome, so their editing the list should be fine. If it's a "let's say bad things about people" place, then why is it there? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:43, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

All right. First of all, I would like to owe everyone a sincere apology for my unintentional personal attack on the banned users page. I am fully aware of the no personal attack policy, and I believe it was a good faith mistake on my part, and I did not intend to break Wikipedia protocol in doing so. Now, if I would consider either full protection or watchlist monitoring, I think watchlist monitoring may be a necessary measure in this matter, because as User:Dennis Brown pointed out to me, it is probably not really a good page for a non-admin to edit only because of the potential ramifications of an improper addition to this page, and that would be a very easy mistake to make. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:51, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I only think this list should be kept in orderly fashion. If user X was banned, there should be an official closing of the banning discussion by an uninvolved administrator. Then, a simple notice that user X was banned, with appropriate links and conclusion made by the closing administrator should be included in the list. Such records would be fully consistent with policy. But most records in the list are just fine, so I do not see any pressing problems out there. My very best wishes (talk) 03:38, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * This looks like a solution in search of a problem. In the absence of any history of serious vandalism or mischief on the page, having a number of admins and long-term editors add it to their watchlist would seem to be sufficient. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:58, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * There's no reason to restrict this page to admins-only. It's just like any other page. Maybe more admins need to watch it. Keep the permanent semi-protection if you must, and don't restrict it from the other good-faith editors who help out the comparatively miniscule admin force (who can't be everywhere all the time). Doc   talk  06:53, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree with Doc9871, there is no reason to restrict the page to administrator only. It's a list of banned editors, something that can be easily verified by checking the blocked user and adjusting the page for administrators and non-administrators alike. In fact, as it seems the number of active administrators is slowly growing smaller, this actually compounds the problem. Regards, — <font color="DD0000">Moe  <font color="0000FF">ε  09:17, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I see no reason to restrict ths to admins only. I do think that semi protection is necessary here, but not full. In fact, there is one reason for non-admins to edit this, and that is to remove reports of expired bans. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 12:46, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The proper response to an erroneous edit is to revert it. The page exists to provide a certain link location to actual ban statements, no significant harm comes from a transiently incorrect entry. Given the shortage of active admins, we should only require admins to do actual admin functions, not gnome stuff. Nobody Ent 16:07, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * If this came through as a request at WP:RFPP (which is currently backlogged by the way) my reaction would be Pictogram voting oppose.svg Declined – Pages are not protected preemptively.. Semi seems warranted, but this one minor incident, for which the user has already apologized, does not warrant full indef protection. Disruption would have to be pretty severe to justify that. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:11, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised that this isn't protected. Why would non-admins need to edit this list? It's not like the page has a backlog.—Yutsi Talk/  Contributions  ( 偉特 ) 17:07, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Possibly because of the reasons I mentioned in the remark immediately preceeding yours. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:15, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * There should absolutely not be any restrictions againt non-admins editing that page. Non-admins should be allowed to edit any page at Wikipedia and do any task which does not require the admin tools.  That is, unless it needs to be deleted, protected, or blocked, there is no compelling reason to arbitrarily exclude non-admins from any task.  -- Jayron  32  04:23, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Notification of RFC/U concerning Youreallycan
I'd like to notify the board that I've initiated a Request for Comments/User concerning. The RFC/U can be read at Requests for comment/Youreallycan. Prioryman (talk) 14:30, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to note, it appears tempers over this issue are heated on all sides. If any admins are willing to keep an eye on the RfC/U, it might be helpful. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 23:35, 5 August 2012 (UTC) (I am involved in the RfC)
 * I see it .. I just don't know where to even start. — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ? 01:16, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Where else has this been cross-posted? Forum-shopping? Secretlondon (talk) 01:18, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Forum shopping is going to different areas hoping for a different result. This was pointing editors to the RFC/U, I wouldn't consider that forum shopping. Ryan Vesey 01:21, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well he's promoted it on AN too, where it got quickly closed. Secretlondon (talk) 01:23, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ahh, I thought you were talking about the notification, not the discussion. Ryan Vesey 01:25, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Extraneous, yes. Bad-faith, definitely no.  Both the notice here and the notice at WP:ANI are basically "Hey, this RFCU has been started; please offer your input", and because both WP:AN and WP:ANI are read by people who hold all points of view on this RFCU, he's clearly not trying to stack the deck in favor of one position.  Nyttend (talk) 05:22, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I've been informed that a link to the RFC/U is automatically transcluded onto this page and AN/I so the notification was extraneous after all. Apologies for that. I'll know better next time (though hopefully there won't need to be a "next time"). Prioryman (talk) 06:26, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Note: More than ten editors were notified of the RfC/U by Prioryman on the basis that they had disputes with YRC. In addition to noticeboard posts about it. The RfC/U rules require they be about a single dispute and I suggested at the RfC/U that notifiying a large number of people looks a great deal like vote-stacking at the very least. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:50, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Your claim that I notified them "on the basis that they had disputes with YRC" is false. I have already told you here that I notified only those whom I mentioned in my opening statement, precisely as the third bullet of WP:CANVASS requires, and solely so that they could review and correct any misrepresentation of their involvement. Numerous other editors have already stated that there was no canvassing and the certification comments make it clear that the dispute concerns a long-running pattern of behaviour, not a single incident. You know all of this perfectly well and it is dishonest of you to pretend otherwise. Prioryman (talk) 21:26, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that we close this here and confine the dispute(s) to the RfC itself at this point. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:40, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

"var authorId =" in thousands of refs
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- a glitch in about 12,600 articles, because of a reckless editing by sume users. I just thought, maybe some bot could be used to clenup up this mess? Sometime it's var authorId = "" by, sometimes it's var authorId = "[various numbers]" by . --Niemti (talk) 18:12, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Must be something to do with the Reflinks script: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Artix_Entertainment&diff=501219180&oldid=501219041. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:16, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * And just reckless editing, because some users are just ignoring the script's own guidelines to first check if everything is okay, before saving ("When done, click the "show preview" button at the bottom of the page. If things look OK, then click the "save page" button. If things don't look OK, then fix what needs to be fixed in the preview edit window.")  - and also ignoring me telling to start doing it. But it's over 12,000 articles already and something needs to be done about it. --Niemti (talk) 18:23, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Whoever caused the problem could presumably use the same script to fix it. Alternately, it seems lime a task for someone with WP:AWB skills. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:12, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * What is the correct? I could do it using AWB. -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:16, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I think it was User:Derek R Bullamore. As stated in his talk page, Derek uses the Reflinks tools in good faith. As such the "reckless editing" claims are unfounded in this case. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:26, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Good faith or not, it is a mess that needs to cleaned up. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:37, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That's fair enough. I am going to help do the cleanup as well. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:40, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's "Resolved" yet, as according to Google it's about 12,700 now (that is, not only not any less but also actually 100 more than yesterday). --Niemti (talk) 12:38, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


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RevDer please
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This really needs to be rev deleted. First, because of the content itself, but secondly,  the default  edit summary is being repeated by anyone replying to it. Considering who's page it's appearing on (the summary and content ) it's very much inappropriate. I've already erased it from the page. Thanks <b style="color:#000">"....We are all Kosh...."<b style="color:#000"> <-Babylon-5-></b></b> 22:14, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Note who added it; I'm sure he's capable of deciding what he wants on his talk page. As you've been repeatedly warned, stop trying to act as the self-appointed Chief Censor of Wikipedia. Mogism (talk) 22:18, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Technically he just restored it after it was removed, which he is completely within his rights to do. Some people prefer to keep trolling instead of removing it, pointing it out again later only gives the troll exactly what they want, so let's not do that. Thanks. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:34, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * While Fae has made his wishes clear on the matter of keeping the vandalism in place, I think it may be a topic for the community to discuss whether it's appropriate to go with what Fae wishes here. My personal feeling is that for the good of the encyclopedia and that of others in the vulnerable classes being insulted in those comments, they ought not to be preserved. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 23:38, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I think it would be better for both the project and Fae in the long term if that filth was expunged from the talk page, followed by a semi protection at least. Allowing this sort of grave dancing serves no legitimate purpose, and it's demeaning to the entire project. &mdash; Coren (talk) 01:55, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I can't really disagree with either of those perspectives, and if this had been handled with the discretion usually expected of requests for revdel it would probably be done already. Unfortunately we've got a Streisand effect situation here now, if anyone wants to revdelete it they should probably remove this thread as well in order to reduce the attention paid to it. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:06, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think he almost wants it there. I'm not happy that he's editing and commenting on it. Secretlondon (talk) 09:03, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Inappropriate material should be removed. Editors have a lot of lattitude in their user space, but no page belongs to a user and trolls should not have a haven where their diatribes are retained. Given the background, it is not reasonable to ask for the user's agreement regarding a cleanup—it would be better for the community to simply apply normal standards. I won't promote the trolling by repeating offending comments, but the post at "04:43, 27 January", and all the similar junk, should be removed (including the two "Your Recent Edits" sections—see the poster's user name). Perhaps just archive the page? Johnuniq (talk) 03:30, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Its sometimes a good thing that a record of attacks persist so that others can more easily see what is going on. While it is certainly reasonable to revert such content in the first instance, where the sole editor targeted by the attack has chosen to restore it, and leave it as evidence of what is happening to them, their wishes should be respected. It is not appropriate to white wash what is really going on, at least if the victim doesn't want it. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  17:59, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That's true — which is why we have diffs. I am not convinced of the benefits of leaving egregiously offensive material like that out in the open, and am reluctant to trade in a user's right to edit their own talk page to restablish grave-dancing and other highly unacceptable behaviour like that. At any rate, the page has been fully protected and redirected. Banned users shouldn't be editing their talk page anyway: a ban is a ban from editing whatsoever. The only reason the technical ability for blocked users to edit their talk page was enabled is to allow them to appeal their block, which obviously doesn't apply here. WilliamH (talk) 22:53, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Non-admin actions at RPP and RFPERM
Do we generally allow editors who are not admins to decline requests at RPP and RFPERM? --Rschen7754 05:39, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Define "allow". Are they making decisions that the average "reasonable person" would not?  That is, if an admin had made the exact same action, would you object?  If you wouldn't, then you have no basis to object when a non-admin does it.  If you would object had an admin made the decline, then the basis for the objection is that the objection is faulty, not the status of who made it.  Either way, it doesn't matter who commits the action: if it is a good action it should stand regardless of who made it, and bad actions should be likewise dealt with regardless of who made them.  Since declined requests don't need the tools to enact, I see no problem in principle with any long-standing editor with a good standing in the community declining them. -- Jayron  32  05:45, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * There was a discussion last week about declining unblock requests: Administrators' noticeboard/Archive238. The consensus was that non-admins should not be declining unblock requests to ensure that users are given a "fair hearing." --Rschen7754 05:52, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you're comparing apples to oranges here. I agree that non-admins should not be handling unblock requests, but that is because of the nature of the block itself.  Our default should always be "everyone can do it", and we should only careful restrict non-admins from doing tasks on a careful basis.  I agree with the crux of that discussion, as it applies specifically and only to that situation, because of what a "Block" is; unlike deletion and protection, the damage done by a poorly handled block (and that includes a poorly handled unblock request) are permanent.  The social problems of a block go way beyond a minor inconvenience, messing up a block one time will cause irrevocable damage to the relationships between the blocked person and the encyclopedia at large.  Not protecting a page that maybe should have been protected is not an issue.  If a few more vandalisms show up, it can always be protected later.  A declined unblock request is like a second door slammed in an editors face.   Not all mistakes are equal.  I don't really have any problem with a non-admin declining a protection request as I would with an unblock request.  So the fact that the community made that decision doesn't surpise me, and I endorse it.  However, I would vehemently oppose any further attempts to imply that admins get special access to most tasks that a non-admin could do; especially where the penalty for being wrong is trivial.  Let's rephrase this.  Show us a diff or diffs where you believe a specific person has made errors in judgement.  If you can't, this isn't a problem.  If you can, lets deal with that one person.  There's no need to set arbitrary rules just to have them. -- Jayron  32  06:14, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The arguements are precisely the same: since a non-admin cannot protect a page or authorize a new permission, they should not be declining one either. As was said in the previous discussion "Never take a 'No' from someone who is not authorized to give a 'Yes'."  Were I turned down for either of these by a non-admin, I would have restored the request immediately, since the closer had no authorization to answer "yes".  That's not what we want, we want a close to be a close. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:09, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * An editor who puts in a good faith request for permission is, IMO, entitled to have his request reviewed and determined by an administrator. Besides, RFPERM is hardly overburdened. T. Canens (talk) 11:08, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Just a note: before I got rather tied up with an aggressive defense, I was soliciting input on WT:RFPERM in order to determine a) non-admin "clerking" requirements, and b) what limitations those "clerks" would be working under. More input from admins would probably be good there. <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  11:14, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I've recently been working at RFPP after not doing so for quite a while. The new thing I am seeing there is "clerk notes." They will comment on a request but usually don't actually close it. As an admin I am responsible for investigating the need for protection myself so I can't say I find that particualry helpful, but it does no harm either. I would disagree with expanding the concept of non-admin closures to request for permissions or protection. Unlike AFD, most of these are not community discussions where what is needed is a correct interpretation of consensus. These are requests for specific admin actions and admins are vetted by the community based on their perceived ability to make such decisions. It is only fair to the person making the request that a user who is properly vetted in that manner and has the technical ability to grant the request be the one to make the call. That is why have admins in the first place, if it was just a matter of robotically responding to requests based on some formula we woildn't need admins to make these decisions. Hell, we wouldn't even need real people, a bot could do that. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:08, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with T. Canens and Beeblebroz - editors are looking for a review by an administrator and should be given a reponse by an administrator. Dougweller (talk) 17:28, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Admins are just regular editors with extra tools. If an action can be performed by an editor without additional permissions, the default should always be that they are permitted to perform it. If you request a response from an administrator, and a non-admin gives you the correct response, whats the problem? That said, Unblock requests are different, most other times if you dispute a quasi administrative action by a non-admin, you have a variety of ways to request review, such as raising the issue with them on their talk page, or heading to AN/I. Blocked editors have no such ability, and so its particularly important that they not be on the receiving end of a bad non-admin action. Likewise there is clear consensus that the rules at WP:NAC apply to closes of deletion discussions. But otherwise, until clear consensus to the contrary is developed, the default should remain that no permission is required. If there are specific editors taking bad quasi-admin actions, they should be individually corrected. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  17:51, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see anyone saying permission is required. I think the point is that the non-admins cannot directly act on the requests so any "commentary" is simply the non-admin spending their volunteer time in an unproductive exercise.  I can see the possibility that an admin may overlook something important in a request; at that point input from others would be helpful, from any party.  Tide  rolls  18:09, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Some of the comments above suggest that a non-admin may not reject certain things, for instance an RFP request. In other words you can't do it without the admin right. I'm disagreeing and saying that be default any editor can. Sorry if there was any confusion from my use of permission instead of userright. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  18:14, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Requests for admin actions should be responded to by persons who can actually fulfill the request and who have been vetted by the community to determine if they have the judgement necessary to make such decisions. anyone can comment on anything they like but they shouldn't present themselves as persons who can actually take action on the request. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:55, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That said, "anyone can comment" leads to ridiculous comments like "I don't think this person should get it" (with no policy-based argument to follow), or worse ... or engaging a horrifically WP:COI/WP:PROMO editor with a WP:UAA violation over a period of 7 or 8 posts that sometimes just gets ugly. Non-admin comments in those locations need to be properly worked with in order to set expectations, and ensure quality of responses <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  18:59, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is consensus that someone needs to be able to accept a request to reject it. Any editor can reject a CSD, only an admin can delete. Any editor can perform a WP:NAC keep close at AfD, only an admin can delete. It seems there is consensus in favor of allowing non admins to act in exactly the type of situations you object to. Why is an RFP request different? Also, if anyone shows up and says they don't think someone should get a permission, given how rare that is, it deserves investigation to determine if it is founded, even if the rationale isn't stated. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  19:38, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Read NAC again. Note how it specifically says that NACs are only appropriate in cases where there is an unambigous consensus. Requests for page protection are not discussions and adjudicating them does not require a consensus, it requires a proper understanding of the protection policy. Of course any responsible admin will take into account any good faith comments made by other users, but ultimately they are charged with actually making the decision to protect or not. This is because the community has explicitly said it trusts them to do so. The same cannot be said for self-appointed clerks. They may provide some extra detail or insight, but they are not entrusted by the community with the responsibility of making such decisions. We need to get it straight here, what is being asked is if we are going stretch the definition of NAC to include decisions currently not covered by that essay. And it  is an essay, not even a guideline, so cotiing it as an excuse to do something not even mentioned there is not going to cut it. If you wish to seek consensus for NA closes in other venues, open a proper RFC on the subject and ask the community, we can't just shoehorn it in based on a few comments here. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:29, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Check out Village_pump_%28policy%29/Archive_91, where an RFC was held. While it was not formally closed, my reading of the consensus there was that it supported the broad use of NACs. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  05:59, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Monty, if you ever raise anything like this again at the Village Pump, this board is the first place you should notify. ANI is for actions, this is for " issues affecting administrators generally – announcements, notifications, information, and other matters of general administrator interest." Like non-Admin closures. The closure statement simply asks that the guidelines be clarified. Dougweller (talk) 06:24, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not the one that notified AN/I, and generally it should be enough to add an RFC tag, though that one was mentioned on WP:CENT as well.  Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  06:59, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think there's 2 portions to this... First is the question about mop level activities (Blocking/Unblocking/Page protecting/Permissions/etc.) and the other is users opining on requests that do end up with a mop action. I know I've recently taken to trolling the Category:Requests for unblock for the purpose of trying to cut down on some of the bogus requests that get filed or to help get the appealing user the information they need to make a successful unblock.  As such I see it in the same vein of commenting on a WP:AIV or WP:RFPP request, to justify and help the administrator figure out what the community conesnsus is. This has the side benefit of helping me get a feel for the spirit of Wikipedia to ensure that some time in the future when I do decide to make a bid for the mop, my viewpoint won't be that far out of line.  I think I removed one "Request for Administrator" template from a blocked user's talk page because it was obvious to me that they were having a tantrum and not willing to work collaboratively.  I noted this in my response and waited for anybody else to revert the striking of the template to as to learn, but as far as I know, the action has not been reversed.
 * TLDR: Admins are busy. Having Gnomes/Clerks scurring around to help is not a bad thing. Hasteur (talk) 19:25, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This issue has been discussed at WT: PERM. Non-admins are allowed to help out by confirmed, as many of the requests there do not actually require an admin. There are also a few admins who work in conjunction with non-admins at confirmed. Best, Electric Catfish 21:18, 6 August 2012 (UTC).

Troll needs a block
(no not me :)

This guy  he's repeatedly trolled  Pinthicket's  page with various garbage. He's gotten multiple warnings. He's not listening, so perhaps a block would be in order <b style="color:#000">"....We are all Kosh...."<b style="color:#000"> <-Babylon-5-></b></b> 12:28, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Apparently, someone's creating multiple disposable accounts
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And then quickly abandoning them right after making a few edits, only to create another, repeat:
 * 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Smoortsixe
 * 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Street_Kombat (brand new and specially created immediately after my edit, just to revert it)

I have no idea who may be really that, and I don't know about other such disposable accounts belonging to him/her but I guess there were lots of them and it's his/her standard practice, used also elsewhere (that is, in various other articles). Do with it what you want. --Niemti (talk) 12:32, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

No. This person is adding unsourced material to articles and making personal insults. That is the issue. Street Kombat (talk) 15:16, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Just because others remove your unsourced spam doesn't mean anything other than your edits are unconstructive, and unsourced. Street Kombat (talk) 15:21, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This should have been on WP:ANI. However, Niemti is adding unsourced WP:OR, and Street Kombat clearly is socking.  Both are edit-warring.  Block'em both <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  15:24, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Clearly? I see something about Niemti here

Street Kombat (talk) 15:28, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * So? A past block log is not necessarily indicative of current behaviour.  Focus on your behaviour <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  15:34, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Everyone involved is now blocked. (seem to be having trou le getting Twinkle to deliver the block notices though) Beeblebrox (talk) 15:42, 6 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User rights for the Education Program extension
Hi! I'm seeking feedback for the configuration of user rights on the revised version of the Education Program extension, which we're hopeful can be deployed in the next few weeks. The user rights configuration will be rearranged to avoid a Wikimedia staff role as bottleneck or control point for the user rights. Please take a look at the proposed configuration and give feedback. The nominal plan would be to have bureaucrats control the "Education Program administrator" flag, which would be the main right for controlling other user rights and administrative features within the new "Education Program:" namespace. Thanks!--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 18:41, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

(As the signature suggests, I'm now working for WMF. I'm essential the community liaison for the education program, so please feel free to bring related issues and frustrations to me. -Sage)


 * What administrative action or issue are you asking for? Do you realize that this board is for issues which require administrative review and action, not for general discussion? Simply because you work for the WMF (this is yet unproven) does not mean you can violate policies of the English wikipedia. 65.96.75.57 (talk) 01:25, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * This page is for "General announcements, discussion of administration methods, ban proposals, block reviews, and backlog notices." In other words, issues that you'd like to bring to the notice of administrators as a group. The Education Program extension and its configuration is such an issue, and I don't see how my posting was inappropriate.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 02:00, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Again, this board is for administrative action, not for you to WP:canvass for support for your pet project. In addition your supposed position within the WMF is still uncertain. 65.96.75.57 (talk) 02:23, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Two points. The first is that the IP above, as well as the main account, have been blocked for WP:SCRUTINY reasons. This was done by other checkusers, but I think it only fair to note this. My second point is that I believe it's inappropriate for the WMF to create its own namespace on this project, and further to institute user rights over which this project has no control. This namespace is going to be used only for the administration of WMF-certified education programs. They have their own Outreach wiki to do this, making interwiki links where necessary. I can think of a few possible additional namespaces that this project might want to consider. Having a separate namespace, with its very own special user rights attached to it, for the purpose of administering a WMF program, is very far down the list of "good reasons for creating a new namespace" in my mind. Although this is probably a fait accompli, I will still point out that Wikipedia is not a hosting service, not even for the WMF.  I've also commented at the link added by Sage. Risker (talk) 04:50, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * This does seem a bit odd. As our policies extend to every portion of this site, are we to assume that our existing admins, functionaries,  new page patrollers, etc will be expected to do maintenance for this new namespace that has not been approved by the community? Just tacking on a whole new namespace without even asking us first seems like more muscle-flexing by the WMF. Why here? Why not their own wiki that they already have set up, as suggested by Risker?  Beeblebrox (talk) 23:52, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * See update here.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:33, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Ivan Gašparovič
Please, protect the article of Ivan Gašparovič, because a noname user (here permanently deletes a sourced text from the article. Without discussion. Thanks forward. --Norden1990 (talk) 23:45, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I was tempted to block both of you, and the reason I chose instead to levy full protection for 24 hours is that the IP, unlike you, was attempting to engage in sustained discussion. It would have helped had you heeded the big bold notice and notified the IP, whose talk page has never been created.  Nyttend (talk) 00:02, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The discussion to the question is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:The_Banner#Re:_Gasparovic_revision 89.173.110.130 (talk) 06:17, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The offending section been removed, and the protected article, as it stands is better for it. However, once the protection is lifted, I assume the section will again be added. What can I do to ensure that changes are not reverted again?89.173.110.130 (talk) 13:41, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * [Rearranged your comments for readability, but without changing anything] All I can say is that you need to obtain consensus, because discussion by itself is not enough to keep you from being blocked or the page from being protected with the content instead of without. Nyttend (talk) 13:51, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * And where can I get this consensus? Whom must it include? 89.173.110.130 (talk) 13:55, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You need to gain it at the talk page. Perhaps you could post a request for input at the talk page for the Slovakia Wikiproject?  Or perhaps the Slovak noticeboard?  Remember that any notices you post must be neutral, according to our canvassing policy; you're free to ask people to offer input (although please don't bombard lots of pages with requests), but you may not make a "Vote for my position" request.  Nyttend (talk) 14:01, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I have done so in the two pages you recommended. If I have not been neutral in representing the dispute, please feel free to rephrase it. If there is anything else I need to do, please let me know. I am a bit worried that the pages are dead, but perhaps it will be fruitful. 89.173.110.130 (talk) 14:16, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

User:Neogeolegend
Hi, can you please take a look at User:Neogeolegend? This user has essentially created a nazi shrine, at Portal:Nazi Germany. He's also creating userboxes like Template:User interested in Nazi Germany in main template namespace (not saying it would be okay in user namespace) and has some other unacceptable content on his user page. --rtc (talk) 03:13, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * What content on his homepage is unacceptable? Still reading contributions, but so far seems to be historical interest not advocacy.
 * If he is advocating somewhere please show us specific diffs. Thanks.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:37, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please take a close look. He is showing an exploding swastika, commenting "this user believes that removing history is destroying history itself". The meaning of this message is clear. The user shows the nazi flag in a userbox, commenting "This user is interested in Nazi Germany." It cannot be tolerated per WP:CIVIL that the nazi flag be shown, and such comments cannot be an excuse. The user has another userbox saying "This user admires Nazi Germany uniforms." Again, the message is as clear. I think any ambiguity that might be in these messages has been purposefully put into them to trick people into believing it is covered by policy, which I think it is clearly not. If you look at the portal, it clearly embraces and excessively uses nazi symbolism, colors, quotes, etc, instead of describing things in an encyclopedic and disassociative manner. Again, the portal purposefully tries to make things look ambiguous by having this anti nazi section, which cannot be any excuse at all for the rest of this propaganda portal. BTW, I'm not sure if he is advocating the nazis per se, rather than merely having an completely uncritical and naive view about them, but I think already making use of this kind of nazi symbolism in this almost obsessive manner, including the advocacy of such symbolism, is clearly disruptive and not WP:CIVIL. --rtc (talk) 06:03, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * There is a difference between "I am offended by this" and "you must take action". You are clearly offended, and from a personal taste point of view for the sake of argument I agree, but he seems to me more of a historical fan than advocate or booster.  Good history, even of offensive things, requires dedicated historians focused on the topic.
 * I am not saying we won't act, but not without actual cause. Focus on finding that, if it's there.  We need an actionable policy or behavior problem to act.  Merely being offended is neither.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:41, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * "The user has another userbox saying "This user admires Nazi Germany uniforms." Again, the message is as clear. " Yes, it is very clear - the Nazis wore damn sexy uniforms. Objectively the hottest ever worn. Doesn't make me a Nazi apologist for saying so, just means I'm a human with needs.. --Golbez (talk) 15:22, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2lKq794fII#t=1m20s --rtc (talk) 15:27, 7 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with Georgewilliamherbert. There is nothing particularly wrong with having an interest in Nazi Germany &mdash; I find it fascinating myself, and we need articles that cover the topic extensively. It's when someone starts professing such an ideology that it becomes something of an issue.  Master&amp;  Expert ( Talk ) 09:24, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If you're writing about Nazi Germany, you're doing readers a disservice if you don't include some of the more prominent imagery; intentionally omitting the flag would be one of the best ways to damage the page, and its inclusion is not by itself a violation of WP:CIVIL. There's also a substantial difference between admiring Nazi uniforms and admiring those who commanded their wearers.  Nyttend (talk) 13:19, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No, there's no substantial difference. This is exactly the kind of ambiguity I'm talking about, which cannot be an excuse for this. "intentionally omitting the flag would be one of the best ways to damage the page"? Nonsense. No damage whatsoever is being done if users omit nazi flags from their home page, and stop using nazi symbolism on portals, instead showing such symbols only in an dissociative context for encyclopedical purposes. --rtc (talk) 14:25, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Find me the Wikipedia policy that permits censorship of topics from portals. Find me a scholarly consensus that says "If you admire someone's clothes, you admire his actions".  I just looked through a couple dozen portals for countries worldwide, and all of them included the current national flag.  Why should this one be different?  It's displaying the national flag that was current during the time in question.  The same is done for Portal:Austria-Hungary, and while no flag is displayed at the top of Portal:Soviet Union, we use a massive image of the country's coat of arms.  Nyttend (talk) 14:41, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey, the nazi flag, it's just a national flag, isn't it? Why should it be different? sorry, but are you kidding me? There is a reason why showing such symbols in any non-academic context is even against the law in many countries, which clearly means it is not civil to show them. Noone asks for censorship. The flag can clearly be shown in an appropriate context. Noone is contesting that. But it is completely unacceptable to make a nazi shrine in nazi style and symbolism. This is not using the nazi symbols for descriptive purposes, it is showing them as an end in itself. Is it so hard to understand?  --rtc (talk) 14:54, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * As everyone except you has agreed, this is an appropriate context. Please read WP:HORSE and after that explain how it's any different to use the symbols of Iosif Dzhugashvili, which I already mentioned.  Nyttend (talk) 15:00, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you have any real argument? "we are the majority" is not one of them. And no, you can't conclude anything about the truth of a statement from the fact that many believe in it. --rtc (talk) 15:04, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. It's the one I've already told you: that this is an appropriate context.  Here at Wikipedia, everything depends on consensus; we specifically have a page that discusses what's going on here.  Nyttend (talk) 15:09, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No, it is clearly not an appropriate context. And I think you misunderstand consensus. It means everyone should try to come to an agreement, not that only everyone except one needs to and then the majority is right and the one is wrong. --rtc (talk) 15:16, 7 August 2012 (UTC)


 * What is going on here!!. Users talking about me! this is really great. Anyway, we can't remove the history, it has been a history and we should live with it. The portal created when I couldn't see any portal related to Nazi Germany article. The template which say "this user is interested in Nazi Germany", it shows my interest only. There is also a template i thought to create which say "This user admires Nazi Germany organizational not ideological". I have no extremist purposes with these pages and templates.--Neogeolegend (talk) 14:00, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That's precisely what everyone except the original complainer thought you meant. You're not in any trouble.  Nyttend (talk) 13:58, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * any ambiguity that might be in these messages has been purposefully put into them to trick people into believing it is covered by policy, which it is clearly not. Showing nazi flags or showing admiration for their symbolism, uniforms, quotes, whatever, is not WP:CIVIL. It is completely unacceptable to show the nazi flag on any user page, regardless what comment you put next to it. It is also completely unacceptable to make a nazi-style portal shrine that presents nazis in an alarmingly stupid and naive way. This is the same as putting lots of penises on user pages and making portals full of penises. Would that be accepted? No. Should this be accepted? No, certainly not. --rtc (talk) 14:25, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yet. Be careful with how you cover topics.  It's one thing to create content about the history of Germany during that time frame, it's a different matter to comment about how wonderful it was.  It's one thing to report the facts associated with the topic, it's annother to only present information that is only glamorous to the ideological standpoint.  Just a fair warning as you'll probably get more "He's interested in Nazi's, let's form a mob against him" attitudes as this was. Hasteur (talk) 14:28, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * And because nothing about the ideological standpoint has been praised, there are no problems. There's nothing wrong with having a portal on this period of German history and the beliefs that drove its government, and unlike a user who puts a penis gallery on a userpage, this is a single image being used to identify the subject.  Nyttend (talk) 14:34, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Nonsense, I can as well put a penis on my user page and write an ambiguous comment like "this user is interested in human anatomy" and obviously that wouldn't be an excuse. "nothing about the ideological standpoint has been praised" This is just stupid. It's like saying, oh no, it's not okay to praise Hannibal Lecter, but if I praise his face mask, that's okay! --rtc (talk) 14:54, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Rtc. Without comment on the topic at hand, and just a note for future reference.  If and when you start a thread on an admin. board about another user - you are supposed to inform that user about it so they may respond.  Just a FYI. — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ?  15:05, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I actually did that a long time ago, and actually the user has responded above already. He's saying he "admires Nazi Germany organizational not ideological" That's nonsense. You cannot separate the two Nazi Germanys. It's like saying "Oh, I'm not admiring the nazis killed so many jews, just the efficient way they did it" It's just completely unacceptable. Pars pro toto --rtc (talk) 15:10, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

RTC, I say this will all the respect in the world, but let it go. Several editors/administrators have told you that there's a difference in the interest of the history of Nazi Germany and the support of their ideals. I notice that you've claimed that you edit on the German Wikipedia. In that case there's very specific and explicit rules about Nazi iconography and symbolism. This isn't the German Wikipedia and your attempt to drum up sanctions or stir up a lynch mob is not going to win you any support. Hasteur (talk) 15:11, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This isn't Nazipedia, the encyclopedic standards are the same on all wikipedias. I do agree that there's difference in the interest of the history of Nazi Germany and the support of their ideals. But it depends on what kind of interest. Describing Nazi history, I'm okay with that. Using their symbolism for an end in itself, in a completely unacceptable context, I'm not okay with that. --rtc (talk) 15:16, 7 August 2012 (UTC)


 * @Rtc - apologies. I was looking for a "section", and didn't notice that it was tucked under another thread. — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ?  15:15, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

"We have a very daring and skillful opponent against us, and, may I say across the havoc of war, a great general."
 * Rtc, I have to agree with the others. For example, I have an interest in WW2 air fighter tactics, and airplanes.  I admire the different tactics - and yes, it means I admire how the Germans fought air-to-air.  That does not make me a Nazi sympathizer.  I also admire the uniforms, again, I'm not a sympathizer of their cause.  I also have studied the psychological and leadership methodology, and can honestly say that some things were incredibly done - again, that does not mean I think that Nazi's were cool.  Having an interest in a subject does not mean I support the subject's goals. <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  16:02, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying it's disruptive that some users have some uncritical and naive views; that's just a fact, although an unfortunate one. I'm saying it's disruptive to put such userboxes on a user page or create such a nazi-shrine-like portal. It was part of the nazi's propaganda methods to make it seem as if everything were just some good-looking uniforms, war heroism, lots of symbols etc. The problem is it was not just that. This matches pretty much what the user has done. Thus: What the user was doing is nazi propaganda. --rtc (talk) 16:36, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This has devolved into a "Nazis are bad" thread. Suggest that this thread be closed down as no administrative action is likely to occur from this report and rtc look at the numerous WP:VP threads about Nazis before trying to peruse a current non-starter. Hasteur (talk) 16:57, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This is not about whether Nazis are bad or not (they clearly are) -- it is about Nazi propaganda being against WP:CIVIL, which means including nazi flags on a user page, with ambiguous comments, or creating a nazi shrine portal that uses nazi symbolism as an end in itself. --rtc (talk) 17:37, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, the discussion is closed. But I've dispensed a little advice anyway at User talk:Neogeolegend. Uncle G (talk) 20:01, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * He is now trying to bully me by putting my complaint from above on top of his user page. This is another clear violation of WP:CIVIL, and, if I may add, it is a tactic frequently used by the nazis: publicly denounce the critics. He is also adding further ambiguous userboxes, like "this user is opposed to any form of socialism" (including national socialism? or in the way the nazis said they opposed any form of socialism?), "This user respects Erwin Rommel" (because he was a nazi? or because of being an alleged "war hero"?). This is also standard tactic: saying something by stating the accessory parts of a statement and omitting the core. Taken his userboxes together, they are very consistent with saying by omission that he supports nazi politics. Don't let yourself be fooled by the way he does it. --rtc (talk) 20:12, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Whoa whoa whoa. You lost the argument; stop calling people Nazis. You know who else denounces critics? YOU. You are denouncing your critic, herr rtc. And I look forward to your pogrom against me for saying: I respect Erwin Rommel. The man was a hell of a tactician, one of the smartest generals to ever have command. --Golbez (talk) 20:21, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * omg you guize: "Popular stories of his chivalry and tactical prowess earned him the respect of many opponents, including Claude Auchinleck, Winston Churchill, George S. Patton, and Bernard Montgomery. " CHURCHILL WAS A NAZI --Golbez (talk) 20:24, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Whoa indeed: Rtc, you just called them a Nazi ("it is a tactic frequently used by the nazis[sic]"). That is blockable. You might wish to retract that by adding around that part of the statement, and by never repeating it. <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  20:24, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. It's a direct personal attack and must be retracted. --Golbez (talk) 20:26, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

- Churchill


 * Br&#39;er Rabbit (talk) 20:28, 7 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Golbez, what critic did I denounce?! What did he criticize? I repeat again, he is bullying me by putting my complaint from above on top of his user page, denouncing me as a critic. He is adding further ambigous user boxes. Stop claiming that it's me who is doing something wrong here. It's inappropriate. I now put a notice in German wikipedia that it needs to be discussed that you start tolerating nazi symbols in unserboxes and such portals. Obviously nothing has been learnt from history. That's poor. Perhaps more people will voice their opinion and be able to explain you (=en.wikipedia) why it is inappropriate to deal with this topic in such a lax way. I will retract nothing. It is a fact that this is a tactic frequently used by the nazis. I stated at the very beginning that I am not sure if he actually is a nazi or just naive. And if you incorrectly understood my statement as ambigous, why don't you apply the same standards with respect to Neogeolegend, who is intentionally adding ambigous userboxes etc.? About Rommel: He was not a member of the nazi party, but he didn't have any objections against it, either. His relation to nazi idiology is still controversial. It's clear, however, that he certainly wasn't the person with the clean slate as the myth suggests, and at best politically naive, just as many of his fans today. --rtc (talk) 20:32, 7 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Let it go., and will experience the fairly obvious consequences down the line.  And no you may not add that veiled implication in the same breath as waving WP:CIVIL around.  Let it go.  Those of us who've been here a while can predict exactly what's going to happen here.  It's happened before.  This noticeboard won't have anything to do with it.  Uncle G (talk) 20:29, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed. The end is completely predictable, Neogeolegend is ensuring that, let it run its course. I'm re-closing this. Black Kite (talk) 20:33, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

user boxes
hello everyone. there was a deletion talks regarding a box says this user is interested in nazi germany. the debate closed so fast. There are two templates were not the main part of the talk Template:User respects Erwin Rommel and Template:User admirs Nazi uniforms. I don't no what is the problem with last two templates to be deleted. then I thought to create a reasonable one which is more better and with no category. I think there is no reason for deleting it.

--Neogeolegend (talk) 02:08, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * By now it seems you get a kick out of posting swastikas all over the place. I've no-wikied your precious template; I have a problem with your other advertisements for Nazi fetishism as well. Drmies (talk) 02:19, 8 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I think you're coming very close to the WP:IDONTHEARTHAT level of disruption that normally earns a block from editing, if you haven't passed it already. I would strongly suggest you confine your interest in Nazi Germany and its trappings to improving articles on those topics rather than fiddling around with userboxes that clearly antagonize your fellow editors. 28bytes (talk) 02:29, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This seems to be a global issue, see Ar:مستخدم:Neogeolegend (see boxes on the bottom, which can be shown via clicking on [أظهر]; one of them contains a Rommel fan box too) and Ar:بوابة:ألمانيا_النازية which he seems to have created and which essentially is the arab version of Portal:Nazi Germany -- which BTW I just RFDd. --rtc (talk) 02:34, 8 August 2012 (UTC)


 * This is history not advertisement. The deletion to other two templates was not right since they were not part of the talk. we should wait for other admins and experience editors to see if i did anything wrong.--Neogeolegend (talk) 02:37, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Admins and experienced editors are telling you that you did something wrong, please pay attention to what they are saying. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:45, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't be terribly unhappy if ever single userbox on Wikipedia was deleted, but the community has decided otherwise, and allows editors to advertise their interests on their userpages, within boundaries that the community sets. You have no inherent right to have any particular userbox on your page, and if consensus decides that a userbox you want is disruptive, then you cannot use it.  Recreating a userbox in a slightly different form immediately after it has been deleted is not the  way to endear you to other editors. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:51, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Neogeolegend - In this particular matter, what you intended to state (which only you know for sure) is of secondary concern to how the userbox is perceived by other editors and administrators. And it's being widely perceived by many people as overly enthusiastic regarding Nazi-ism.  Userboxes and user pages and so forth are not your property per se, they're part of the community, and community standards do apply.  Subjectively, by the other community members.  Again, regardless of what you intended when you made them.
 * Beyond My Ken is correct here - if the community judges that the content is inappropriate it has to go. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:56, 8 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I my self a Semitic because people from my decent are from Shem the son of Noah. The only I listen now you will be blocked you are trolling you are kid playing around and so on. I can't find any thing harms wiki a I need a reasonable reasons for the deleting.--Neogeolegend (talk) 03:05, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please do not fall back on the "Arabs are Semitic too, so Arabs cannot be anti-Semitic" canard. Whatever its etymology, "Antisemitism" in English means prejudice or hostility towards Jews  and not "prejudice or hostility towards anyone descended from Shem". You need to understand that since the fall of Nazi Germany, the world has has a lot of experience with people and movements which have an unhealthy interest in that regime, and it's not very often that it's been shown to be a benign thing. Most often, such enthusiasm is an extremely good marker for people who are Fascist, virulently anti-Jewish, bigoted and, in some case, fully subscribe to Hitler's agenda.  Wikipedia's policy of assuming good faith encourages us to believe that you may be the exception to that experience, but if that's the case, you're not going to convince us of it if you keep pushing the envelope.  I guarantee you that bona fide historians who are experts on Nazi Germany do not have websites adorned with swastikas. Who does?  Neo-Nazis and the like.  If you truly are simply someone who is interested in a particular period of history, then please stop acting like those people who adopt these symbols for reasons that are highly objectionable and totally beyond the pale for this project. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:48, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Several people have been somewhat rude to you, which was not OK, but there is a legitimate content issue here. I have asked people to not be rude to you (below and elsewhere).  Hopefully that will calm down.  It is clear that you are upset about the responses right now, which I understand.  It may be best if you stop editing for a while (go get some sleep, perhaps), and respond in the morning.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:09, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

With my apologies to all for probably getting this spread out to yet another page... Neogeolegend, if you believe the deletions were improper, the place to take that discussion is WP:Deletion review. <font face="Lucida Calligraphy"><font color="#cc2288">Lady <font color="#008888">of <font color="#442288">Shalott 03:05, 8 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks LadyofShalott and George William you are very kind to me. I will take your suggestions George and lady and go there to review. I will sleep soon.--Neogeolegend (talk) 03:21, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Please tone this discussion down
The question of whether the degree of Nazi symbolism shown here is appropriate for an encyclopedia is entirely valid and up for discussion. However, here and several other venues this has broken into borderline and in some cases over-the-line personal attacks on Neogeolegend. I am not personally a fan of Naziism or excess use of swastikas or other symbology (here or elsewhere) and know it touches a lot of people's hot buttons. And I am entirely willing to block policy or behavioral problematic antisemitic editors (did earlier this week for another one). But Neogeolegend is not from a western country, and therefore culturally should be given some leeway for discussion, is perhaps enthusiastic but mainly focused on the history, and is not making personal attacks on people or antisemitic comments.

If you think his useboxes and other content are excessive please focus on that. If he starts showing actual Nazi ideology or antisemitism that's another issue. But unless he does, please treat him with reasonable respect and focus on content questions, not attacking him. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:41, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please note that the user page does not merely contain nazi symbols, but, in addition, a statement proclaiming "this user believes that removing history is destroying history itself", where by "removing history" he means removing said symbols (which is clear from the picture above the comment I quoted). --rtc (talk) 02:56, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, and on this particular matter the community already told you up a few conversations that it's OK. Please stop bringing this back up again.  You are approaching disruptive editing here on this point, rtc.  See WP:STICK.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:58, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Just stressing that showing nazi symbols is on the user's agenda, ie., he's doing it deliberately, not merely accidentally out of enthusiasm or something. He apparently knows very well that what he is doing is controversial, to say the least ... But you are right, I am probably beating a dead horse. gnite --rtc (talk) 03:07, 8 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Professing admiration for Naziism is crossing a bright line as far as I'm concerned. There should be no wishy-washy "he's from another culture" excuse-making here. Tarc (talk) 03:29, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I personally find it disgusting, but some other cultures do not see the big deal. Here in Indonesia I see people with Nazi swastikas (as opposed to the Hindu ones) on their motorcycles, and they seem to have no understanding that Hitler would probably have put them in the gas chambers too. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:23, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If a US or European person were doing this I'd have already blocked myself, as nobody here grows up without the cultural and historical references and context. Someone in Wisconsin, say, clear neo-Nazi.  Historians here who have grown intimately involved in studying the Reich and admire non-Holocaust aspects are always very very careful (i heard one preface his comments with "they were great bloody monsters, but let's talk about their industrial programs and research...).
 * Many others around the world don't get the context and aversion. They just don't.  You have to use analogies in Iran ("like what Ghengis Khan did to you...").  Etc.  I've met plenty of foreigners who are educated and aware but just don't inherently get it except by analogy like that.
 * That won't cover actually espousing Nazi ideas in my book, but earns non-adherents whose historical interest is academic or personal and not ideological enough of a pass to at least explain the context sensitivity and not go straight to leaping down their throats.
 * There are both actual multiethnic Nazi sympathizer / believers out there and many antisemites (antijewish / antizionist) who are Nazi boosters out of common cause, some in the middle east. Had I seen that here I'd support a stomp.  So far I have not read such a diff or comment, though I could have missed something.
 * We cannot and must not turn Naziism into a toxic, forbidden topic which cannot be dynamically and enthusiastically discussed or covered here. The light of open truth is the best way to defeat the remnants of its actual supporters.
 * We cannot and must not BITE newbies from other cultures who venture into this area without our sensitivities. As long as they are not Nazi adherents or promoters, enthusiastic students of all origins should feel welcome, to help shed light etc.
 * Neither of those should stop us from ending participation of actual adherents and promoters. We need a reasonable balance allowing it to be a viably covered and curated topic without allowing its promotion here.
 * Again, I indeffed an antisemite a few days ago without guilt or delay. If I saw that here I'd do something myself.  What I see is either one of the worst cases of BITE in some time, or a Nazi whose comments I have manifestly misread but 20 or so of you have failed to find clear examples or diffs as evidence.  Usually evidence diffs are easy and rapid.  If some come I will read them.  I could be wrong.  But haven't seen them yet.  Either they aren't there to find or people are being unusually slow about showing their work.
 * Post 'em if you find 'em...
 * Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:43, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Diffs: Viriditas (talk) 10:29, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed, that leaves little to doubt. Indef-blocked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:14, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Beat me to it. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:16, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict)This seems to be against a particular country, not a religion. Specifically, it is related to P-I dispute. There are plenty of places in the world where this is perfectly acceptable, where this type of thing regularly appears in the mainstream public (non-English) press, often in political cartoons that play to local sentiment (Emad Hajjaj's "Mahjoob" comes to mind), and indeed, where it is not wise for anyone who has a problem with it to publicly express an opinion. A discussion needs to take place about why it is not acceptable here. Neotarf (talk) 11:29, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, it isn't acceptable here, period. Actually, I don't care so much about the anti-Israel vandalism in and of itself, but the anti-Israel vandalism in combination with the Nazi symbolism gives the lie to the claim that the Nazi stuff was "just" neutral historical interest, rather than a desire to promote. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:36, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's the combination of edits that leads to the obvious conclusion this guy is trolling and trying to get a rise. Bye, bye per WP:BATTLEGROUND. --Folantin (talk) 11:38, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yup. It might have been okay to have "interest" UBX's, but once the editing pattern proved full-blown racism/nationalism/hatred, it was time to say "bye".  One would think that a wise editor, knowing they were being watched carefully, would have amended their ways <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  12:01, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe the deletion of the user boxes (by Drmies), as they were written and presented was the right call in the end. They were too disruptive, if for no other reason. As I recently said, it they were changed to reflect an interest in the historical study of the time, that would be different. So I agree with that point, mentioned above. Kierzek (talk) 13:59, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Good block, obviously. Now that it's clear what Neogeolegend was here for, can we close this? 28bytes (talk) 14:22, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Your find does add weight to the matter. It should be closed. Kierzek (talk) 14:30, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, it was Viriditas' find. But vandalizing Israeli templates leaves little doubt in my mind what's going on. 28bytes (talk) 14:39, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks to Viridas for some specific evidence. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:35, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Mitt Romney VP Selection
I don't know if this has been brought up anywhere, or if this is the right place to mention this, but I find this CNN article to be very interesting. So who's it gonna be? It appears we will decide :> Doc   talk  12:12, 8 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Village Pump is probably more suitable. Safe to say that the articles of anyone remotely linked to it should be getting watched for speculation / trolling until it's announced. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:18, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Interesting indeed, and this article has a little more information. Personally I think the spike in edits in 2008 was the result of information about the selections (which had already been made) having become known to staff members (who need to know so they can help get the two running mates together for the announcement the following day) who then try to sanitize the article of the person selected. What we are seeing here, involving multiple candidates, may be something different, where the selection has not been made yet and the staffs of the candidates are trying to improve their boss's chances by clearing any discouraging words out of his/her article.  Neutron (talk) 17:26, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That article also points out that it's just as likely that fans of candidate X who happen to see anecdotal evidence of the sort elsewhere on the Internet are responsible. It would be daft for any staffer to go editing an article on his boss from a government IP in the circumstances today. But again, not an AN issue. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 17:36, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * There was a flurry of vandalism edits to a few potential candidates last night, so a few of them are semi-protected anyway. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:59, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Politically-motivated alterations to biographies of living people? That's bread and butter for the Project:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Uncle G (talk) 20:48, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Talk: Arab (rapper)
Can an admin respond to me at Talk: Arab (rapper)? I left a message. Jawadreventon (talk) 20:17, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Why did you create a talkpage for a deleted article? A non-existent page does not require a protected tag on it <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  20:23, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Rename discussion, may be of interest
Administrators may be interested in a rename discussion at Wikipedia talk:Administrators' noticeboard/Geopolitical, ethnic, and religious conflicts. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:37, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

TfD backlog
Hi Administrators. WP:TFD has quite a backlog at the moment. User:Plastikspork, who's been doing many of the closures recently seems to be away at the moment. Is anyone able to help out? Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 02:00, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Please comment in this thread about blocks
Hello, everyone. Any administrators or users who are knowledgeable about blocks are invited to please comment on a proposed change to the username policy, which would affect how administrators assess a decent chunk of blocks on the English Wikipedia. There has been little participation so far, making consensus-building difficult. See this section. <font face="Tahoma">NTox · talk 21:35, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Humboldt Cave AFD
An editor has tagged Humboldt Cave for AFD, following a dispute with another editor over an unrelated AFD. I've asked at the first editor's talk page for him or her to remove the tag, but it looks like the AFD for Humboldt Cave should be closed, as it does not appear to have been made in good faith. It hasn't been added to today's AFD log page yet. Lone boatman (talk) 10:48, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I have removed the bad-faith AfD tag from the article and deleted the associated AfD page. Will explain on the talk page of the editor concerned. <font face="century gothic" color="#0E6E2D">Kim Dent-Brown  <font face="century gothic" size="1" color="#0E6E2D">(Talk)  11:35, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The name pretty much says it all.  is mad at some Olympic boxing judges and created a spate of one-line articles on judges concerning their "controversial and scandalous" decisions. Unfortunately, the references don't actually name the judges in conjunction with the press coverage of the dispute - the names were derived from the match scorecards.  I deleted them all as unsourced negative biographies. Rather than create a policy-compliant article on 2012 Olympic boxing controversy (there's probably been one for every Olympiad) as I advised, they've chosen to argue.  Having failed to gain traction at WP:DRN, where they were told to go to WP:DRV, they've chosen to start a retaliatory AfD on Humboldt Cave, one of my recent articles.   Acroterion   (talk)   11:37, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Since the AfD was speedily deleted, I removed the AfD tag from the article. Hope that's alright by everyone  p  b  p  13:16, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * They're at it again, .  Acroterion   (talk)   13:29, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Have re-removed, and will block if it's added a third time. <font face="century gothic" color="#0E6E2D">Kim Dent-Brown  <font face="century gothic" size="1" color="#0E6E2D">(Talk)  13:31, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I just noticed that Angryjo2012london has not been notified of this discussion. This should have been done when the first report was filed, as it says in angry red letters at the top of this page.... I have now notified and I hope the user concerned steps back now. <font face="century gothic" color="#0E6E2D">Kim Dent-Brown  <font face="century gothic" size="1" color="#0E6E2D">(Talk)  13:58, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Please revoke talk page access
User talk:PsiEpsilon needs talk page access revoked. There are too many diffs see talk page history. Ryan Vesey 14:27, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅. 28bytes (talk) 14:30, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I had already asked the blocking admin to take a look. Thanks for doing it. -- D<font color="#DA500B">Big X<font color="#10AD00">ray  14:32, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Paul Ryan
If past experience bears out (and this CNN article can attest to) we're likely going to see a lot of activity on Paul Ryan's wikipedia page over the next 24 hours. There is already some edits/reverts being made dealing with the rumors that Mitt Romney is going to name him VP tomorrow. Still just a rumor and nothing is getting out of hand, yet, but this may be a page that a few admins will want to put on their watchlist real soon. AgneCheese/Wine 04:50, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * In addition, there are claims that Stephen Colbert has asked his viewers to vandalize articles on Romney and his VP candidates. <font color="navy" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  04:54, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Not claims, it actually happened. --M ASEM  (t) 05:15, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Policy question
WP:BLANKING says the following may not be removed by a user from their own Talk page: "Declined unblock requests regarding a currently active block, ArbCom-imposed edit restrictions currently in effect, confirmed sockpuppetry related notices, and any other notice regarding an active sanction." Does the phrase "any other notice regarding an active sanction" include an active block notice?--Bbb23 (talk) 16:17, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I would think so. If we wanted to allow removal of active block notices, I think we would need to make a specific exclusion. Ryan Vesey 16:25, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I recall this question being raised some months ago. I think consensus was in favour of prohibiting removal of active block notices, but I'll look for the discussion. Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:32, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Here is the discussion. Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:33, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks much, Lothar, very helpful. I can now see in the edit history where the phrase "any other notice ..." was added. FWIW, the sentence should be reworded in my view as the added phrase encompasses the first phrase. It was that redundancy that gave me pause.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:42, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * How does that work with normal talk page archiving? Obviously you can't create a talk page archive if you're currently blocked, but people with active Arbcom topic bans who aren't blocked are able to archive their talk pages.  Nyttend (talk) 21:48, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It's unnecessary. Checking user's contributions clearly shows active blocks, no need to force editors to maintain a badge of shame on their talk pages. Nobody Ent 00:31, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Why not? People don't generally go to the contributions page to find out about an editor, they go to the talk page first.  A block may or may not be a "badge of shame", it all depends on the circumstances, and the talk page can provide a lot of additional information which can help put the block in context.  The block log has no context, just the naked facts - and strictly from the admin's point of view.  Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:22, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Am I correct that any comments related to the block but not in a template can be removed? Ryan Vesey 04:35, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Excluding the block notice if it wasn't given in template form. Ryan Vesey 04:35, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That's my understanding -- only the block notice itself cannot be removed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:48, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * In my case, the user blanked the entire Talk page. I restored ONLY the current block notice. I haven't seen an answer to Nyttend's question. I also agree that current block notices should not be removable. Checking the log isn't an easy matter for most users, and I don't see why we should have to. It only has to stay in place while it's active.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:07, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * How do you know what people do? All I know is what I do -- user or talk page then immediately bounce to user contributions. Look at page of last contributions (what have they been up to?), then go to earliest (see how old account is) and then down to the toolserver edit count (total number and distribution). That's all real data.
 * If an editor is blocked I don't understand why vultures editors need to be circling around their talk page -- they can't do any harm to the encyclopedia. Nobody Ent 19:37, 11 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Nobody Ent is 100% correct about how it should be, but as I recall there was no clear consensus on this issue the last time it was discussed. I know that for blocks that I make, I don't care if the user blanks the block notice, and if some Rulz Enforcer comes in and replaces it, I'll revert them. For cases like this where there's no consensus, I guess deferring to the blocking admin seems a reasonable compromise (even when, if they disagree with me, they're wrong). --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:26, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Heh, I'd be happy to agree with you when you're right.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:40, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Request for review from uninvolved editor
Hi, I have been accused of edit warring on a controversial article Liancourt Rocks and so I would like a review by an editor that has had no previous involvement with this article or any related article. I have removed text from this article which claims administration of the islets by South Korea as none of the sources given actually state this. My reverts are based on Wikipedia guidelines, however I will not make any further edits to prevent an edit war. Thanks. Clover345 (talk) 11:54, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a valid warning -- at a minimum, you should be explaining your reasoning at Talk:Liancourt_Rocks Nobody Ent 12:01, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not disputing the warning. I'm asking for a review of the edits I've made and I've just added a section on the talk page. Clover345 (talk) 12:16, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Divineabraham
Divineabraham is requesting the removal of his present indefinite block, which was levied a year and five days ago after an SPI. The user seems to have socked more after the block; he last posted an unblock request in January, after the most recent discovery of a sock, but was given WP:OFFER and told to wait six months. After not editing for more than six months, he just now posted a request for unblock:"I believe that I deserve to be unblocked, its been more than 6 months. I think I have gained some maturity as well."I declined the request procedurally, since I don't think that this type of block should be removed unilaterally, but I promised him I'd submit his request to the community. I am neutral on this specific situation. Please offer your input so that we can have a solid consensus on this user's future. Nyttend (talk) 14:21, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Generally commensurate with an SO response, I expect the user to explain what they did wrong that got them blocked in the first place, what the intend to do differently, and what areas of Wikipedia they intend to contribute to. Saying "I've waited and now I'm not going to be bad" isn't usually enough.  If he can make it clear that he knows why what he did was wrong, and can explain why Wikipedia needs him around, that would go a long way towards gaining my support for an unblock.  -- Jayron  32  20:18, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I wonder about the vague assertion: "I think I have gained some maturity". There should be a greater certainty expressed that maturity has increased, what the previous bad behavior was, and that the behavior will not be repeated. Binksternet (talk) 22:45, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * By the way, Divineabraham produced several unblock requests between August 2011 and January 2012; you may want to read them to understand his thinking more fully. I've invited him to participate by using the helpme template, so it's possible that he'll respond to what you say here.  Nyttend (talk) 00:34, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Unarchived, since this probably should get more discussion. Nyttend (talk) 18:19, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Generally, lack of discussion = lack of community interest in unblocking. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:59, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I virtually never participate in these things, and to me it seemed right to get someone to close it, among other things. Nyttend (talk) 22:37, 11 August 2012 (UTC)


 * They've repeatedly been told to review WP:OFFER, I don't see any indication they have done so. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 20:49, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Manning
Hello I believe my edit is correct because it doesn't say Bradley Manning leaked the info it just states that there was a leak which is not in question and User:Srich32977 thinks that his belong I have no malice towards him I just don't want edit war.TucsonDavid U . S .<font color="Blue">A . 01:12, 12 August 2012 (UTC) Never mind discussion opened on the talk page. TucsonDavid U . S .<font color="Blue">A . 01:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC) — Berean Hunter   (talk)  01:21, 12 August 2012 (UTC) — Berean Hunter   (talk)  01:32, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This is a content dispute and best dealt with on Talk:Bradley Manning where Srich attempted to start a discussion with you earlier but you have either missed or ignored and reverted him anyway. None of this merits an ANI over and I'd watch that you don't shoot yourself in the foot with an edit-war claim. Have you notified him of this thread?
 * I applaud your self-revert as moving in the right direction.


 * I didn't notice the discussion until just now I am making no claim against him of edit warring and I even revert my edit until such time as the discussion is complete with a consensus.TucsonDavid U . S .<font color="Blue">A . 01:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Unban request of User: Shakinglord
As per a discussion on User: Muzemike's talk page, I publicly reveal that I, User: Penguin 236, am actually a sockpuppet account for User: Shakinglord. I am very sorry to any editors disturbed by this fact. I have come to AN to request my unban. I believe that I am a substantial editor, my goal is not to disrupt Wikipedia at all. I come wanting to improve Wikipedia, like each and every good editor here. I merely made one fatal mistake, and that ruined my career editing Wikipedia. I would like to clarify the matter of my socking, a matter that is seen as "strange" to my blockers. I admit that my first socks were bad. I was both depressed and paranoid and I wanted to arrange a test as to whether people cared about me on Wikipedia if someone ranted about me. I was blocked, and the rest are simply just the spawn of panic, out of a sort of need to edit and improve Wikipedia. I know that banned editors are not supposed to request their own unbans, but please, hear me out on this one. I firmly believe that I can make decent edits to Wikipedia. I do NOT want to return to Negapedia. I feel that I can better improve Wikipedia here. <font color="navy" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  01:56, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * In the discussion at his talk, Muzemike refers to checkuser data (he's a CU) connecting Penguin with Shakinglord, so we can take it that Penguin is telling the truth and not trolling by pretending to be someone else. No opinion on the unban request.  Nyttend (talk) 02:03, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * CheckUser wasn't even necessary. All one had to do was make the connection with his old account here. --MuZemike 02:16, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay; I happened on this by accident and assumed that you connected the two with CU. Nyttend (talk) 02:22, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Just out of morbid curiosity, what is actually true about who you say you are on your user page?--Bbb23 (talk) 02:07, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If you mean the user boxes, those are my real views and hobbies. <font color="navy" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  02:10, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose: I'm sorry, but lying which you have been persistently in the past does not signify any change in my opinion. <b style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:14px; color:#4682B4;">Elockid</b>  ( Talk ) 02:17, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I am deeply sorry for that, I was simply fearful. My intentions are good. I do have to admit, my socks are not. I am simply trying to say that a clean slate will alleviate the problem. That is all I want. Then, I will acknowledge that my previous transgressions are bad and I will never sock again. Isn't this what WP: ROPE is for? <font color="navy" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  02:30, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Fact of the matter is that you still tried to deceive us again. If you were truly, keyword, truly deeply sorry for your actions, then you shouldn't have tried to pull off the same stunts as last time. You blew the previous chance you gave yourself with, threatening legal action and trolling. Let's not forget this which is essentially the same as this situation. <b style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:14px; color:#4682B4;">Elockid</b>  ( Talk ) 04:04, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose at this time. The time-wasting silliness of this, among other things, tells me that the standard offer would be a wiser course of action. WP:NOTTHERAPY is pretty apt here as well, I think. 28bytes (talk) 02:23, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That, again, was a mistake. I was simply freaked out that I may not be able to help Wikipedia. <font color="navy" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  02:30, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose There is a a correct way to request to be unbanned, but he choose to use a sock instead so I don't see how we can trust that he will not disrupt Wikipedia again.TucsonDavid U . S .<font color="Blue">A . 02:57, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Let us examine the possibilities. If I am unbanned, why would I further sock or disrupt Wikipedia? What do you have to lose by unbanning me? I am a good editor, had I not posted that I am Shakinglord, you would have not thought of me as problematic. True, this has turned into a bit of a case of The Boy Who Cried Wolf, but I simply could not keep living a lie. <font color="navy" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  03:12, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please, I implore you, let us forget those horrible, foolish mistakes. Those were awful, yes, but there is no need to dwell on them. I can do good, and you know it. Please, if we leave my past mistakes, I promise that there will be no more sockpuppetry, lying, or disruption of any kind. And, on the first sign of disruption, you can block me forever. Also, if I am unbanned, I promise to stay off ANI and AN unless the discussion directly concerns me. You really have nothing to lose. Quoting ABBA, take a chance on me. <font color="navy" size="2px">Robby The Penguin  <font color="blue" size="1px">(talk)   <font color="blue" size="1px">(contribs)  03:23, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Nice try with the popculture quoting and flowery appeals at forgiveness. I don't think that's gonna change the attitude of people towards you given what you've done. --Eaglestorm (talk) 04:30, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment - I find myself somewhat annoyed that I spent the better part of an hour last night attempting to assist you with determining the nature of your block and with how to request an unblock, only to find that you knew perfectly well why you were blocked all along. I did start to smell "something" along the way, and I even strongly suggested that you grok the implications of the attention you were about to bring upon yourself. Although it is unlikely to have a significant impact on the outcome of this discussion, I don't know if you realize that your actions have (among other things) resulted in a complete block of an entire school from editing on Wikipedia. That kind of impact is FAR more detrimental to this project than pretty much anything that you did as an editor. I don't have an opinion as to whether or not your ban should be lifted, that will be for others to determine. I do have an opinion that your actions in the past have been severely detrimental to the project and create a high bar to overcome. --Tgeairn (talk) 03:50, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose This editor could have created a new persona and tried to quietly edit and help the project without fanfare. Instead, he has been prominent in recent discussions on ANI, calling for blocks and bans on other editors.  This is a strong indication that his motivations are far from clear, that his intent is not necessarily to improve the encyclopedia, and that he cannot be trusted.  Follow the Standard Offer and come back when you have done so, to ask again. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:56, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Leaning towards Hell no and block the sock until the discussion is finished. --Onorem♠Dil 04:07, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - It's a good thing Penguin owned up as a Shakinglord sock, but that doesn't excuse a circumvention of a block on sockmaster. I agree with BMK and TD's votes. After screwing up with all those edits, to trust this sockmeister again is an issue of concern to the project. Rebuilding a reputation via the original account and not socking ever again seems to be too steep a road for this guy...what's Negapedia anyway, some Newspeak-version of WP?--Eaglestorm (talk) 04:24, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose and block the sock When an editor is blocked (especially one with the history of Shakinglord), we occasionally grant them WP:OFFER.  When that happens, and someone does unblock as per WP:OFFER, that is the WP:ROPE.  One may not simply seize a rope of their own, using their own rules, and of their own accord.  Evading a block is evading a block, period. <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  09:46, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. We had this public appeal at 01:56, 12 August 2012, yet at 00:10, 12 August 2012 Penguin had still been lying about it and would clearly not have come clean if not caught. A period of honesty of just 106 minutes between the last lies and the unban appeal is nowhere near enough to convince me of good faith - I'd recommend a minimum six months of no socking and no lies, as per WP:OFFER, and block this latest sock at the conclusion of this discussion. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:09, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - there are channels to go through and socking is not one of them. Yes Robby/Penguin revealing himself is a good sign, but let's not forget it was only inevitable before it MuZemike or somebody CUed him. GiantSnowman 10:14, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Blocks prevent disruption. Bans formalize block-on-site of long-term disruptive editors who have exhausted community patience. This editor has again demonstrated that he is not willing to comply with site policies but instead to disrupt and waste many others' time. Therefore I see nothing to gain with unbanning an editor who causes us to waste more time and refuses to obey policies. DMacks (talk) 12:45, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Shakinglord's final contribution to his account on November 21, 2011: "I formally retire. I ask that no one disturbs my userpage, in memory of me. Farewell, perhaps we will meet again someday." Prophetic but too often true of a sock. On April 24, 2012, SL created the Onepier account. On June 3, 2012, when the Penguin account was created, SL said on this board: "Not a big thing. I am simply retiring my current account and starting a new one, simply because I hate my current username. Just didn't want any administrators thinking I was socking, so i'm announcing it here.".


 * Since being here in his new guise as Robby, SL has trotted around like a self-important puppy, spending most of his time here and at ANI, making pronouncements on all sorts of things as if he is already an administrator with 10 years of experience. When told by many that he should spend his time elsewhere ( & ), he ignores the advice and continues to do what he likes best, game-playing drama. I actually think he doesn't necessarily care whether he's doing "good" or "bad" as long as he's entertained. He's a precocious, emotionally immature boy (I'm assuming he's really 15) who has no boundaries in his behavior. He states above that at the "first sign of disruption, you can block me forever." I submit that his responses here are just as disruptive as the rest of his conduct and we should accede to his request. His contrition is absolutely hollow, and he has exhausted this community's good will.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:22, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment I think we all are just wasting our time with this discussion. and that a Admin should just go ahead and close this unban request per WP:SNOW. TucsonDavid U . S .<font color="Blue">A . 19:40, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * After the admitted ban-evading sock has been blocked, of course. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Requests for adminship/Ekabhishek
Don't know if I am right or wrong, but I think this needs to be clarified. I am stating it in good faith.
 * Looking at the support section of above WP:RFA, I can figure out that it has a devoting effect of regionalism. As, the candidate is from India. Major supporters are also from India, who are supporting with a formal rational.(i.e. Voting in the RFA after long time, or more perfectly voting for the first time) I think these activity could change the results of RFA and also the consensus. Possibly, I could be wrong about this perspective. but, It is the thing that needs to be clarified. GiantBluePanda (talk) 07:36, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that this best belongs at WP:BN. Nick-D (talk) 07:44, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * At least say few words about it. GiantBluePanda (talk) 10:53, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * As long as nobody is engaging in canvassing or sockpuppeting the votes are perfectly valid. I trust that the bureaucrats can distinguish between "Support - He's Indian", and "Support - ". (Disclaimer: I supported Ekabhishek.) Reaper Eternal (talk) 11:56, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * But, It could be non-wiki canvassing. (Please I am not assuming bad faith) You can easily figure out that half of Indian users have voted in support, while they have rarely voted to any RFA in past. GiantBluePanda (talk) 12:02, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, please ban editors from WP:INDIA from participating in any RfA related to members. It's a simple solution really. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  12:05, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why you think this is an issue. Obviously editors monitoring the talk page of the candidate and/or the various nominators would know about the RfA and would be motivated to !vote in it. If this brings more editors into the RfA process, that's a good thing. And, should we really be monitoring ethnicity of editors? --regentspark (comment) 12:09, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No, we shouldn't. Rfa's are some of the more highly watched WP areas so I don't think any action is necessary. Nobody Ent 12:18, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Wow, please say you were being factious with that comment, I literally choked on my coffee when I read that. I find that patently offensive to even suggest (joke or not), and certainly a violation of policy and common sense. I can confidently say that we will NOT be monitoring the ethnicity of voters, and not barring good faith votes based on any Project the participants belong to.  That is a strike-worthy comment. Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;   Join WER 12:17, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No more offensive than the OPs suggestion that I supported the candidate because I'm Indian. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  12:26, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, I wasn't aware of your ethnicity, so the sarcasm wasn't obvious. I would agree that both are equally offensive, yes.  Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;   Join WER 12:30, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I have to say this all seems in bad taste to me - if someone works extensively in India-related areas, they will be well known to other people working in India-related areas, who will be more likely to !vote in an RfA than people who don't know the candidate - and (surprise, surprise) a lot of those will be Indian! Although a candidate's ethnicity does not play a part in my decisions, I am pleased when I see good candidates from other parts of the world than the Western/American/British culture that forms the great majority - it's the best (and probably the only) way to address the systemic bias that is unavoidable in a project dominated by one culture/ethnicity. What matters here is whether Ekabhishek will make a good admin, and people's !votes should be assessed on their actual words, not on their ethnicity. (Mind you, did you see the number of Americans who supported Dennis, and Brits who supported me? What a disgrace!) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:01, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * GBP, how do you determine that many of the supporters are from India? Simply their activity?  You'll notice that I've done a good deal of work on Liberian topics this year, but I've never been to Liberia and am ineligible for citizenship there.  The whole RFA appears to be devoid of problems.  Nyttend (talk) 13:11, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

User:GiantBluePanda
Furthermore, appears to be some sort of troll intent on disrupting RFA, RefDesk, and. See especially these edits: (he claims to be a cleanstart account; he should know this), disruptive question, disruptive question, disruptive user talk post, disruptive question, questions BWilkins's autochecked alt account, CU violates privacy policy, nominating people for adminship , desysop Bwilkins #1 & #2, and more in his edit history. This is in addition to the initial CU misfire (visible on his user talk page, which he currently has at MFD) and bumping into checkuser blocks. Reaper Eternal (talk) 12:20, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You are correct in that this is an odd looking contrib list, the question on user rights that you linked  is particularly telling, as that isn't something you stumble across accidentally as a new user.  Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;   Join WER 12:28, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a false alarm. Please see . I asked Bwilkins' advice on my behavior. I was confused whether my behavior was disrupting or not. GiantBluePanda (talk) 12:29, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a cleanstart account, not a new user. Nobody Ent 12:31, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That doesn't preclude them from being a a troll, and his added diff doesn't disprove that either. Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;   Join WER 12:32, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I have e-mailed Coren my previous account name. User:Reaper Eternal has fired too many questions at me. Dennis! I am willing to explain all your doubts, if you have. GiantBluePanda (talk) 12:38, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This isn't a disruptive post, neither is. You can call this [] a adult question. Ask the user himself about [] whether it is disruptive or what. GiantBluePanda (talk) 12:49, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I held myself back from using the word "troll" to describe GBP more than once. Their unhealthy fascination with me (on both of my accounts) indeed has raised some concerns. Unrelated to that, I actually believe the original block on them was correct, based on WP:DUCK alone. Clearly, they have been around awhile - whether it's a valid cleanstart or a block-evasion, someone else can find out. Overall, they're a pain on the project so far - an unfortunate net-negative based on their entire editing pattern - not including the surreal attention I have garnered from them <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda 12:50, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't have intention of disrupting the project.If I had, I wouldn't have asked advice from you.My problem is, I am trying to adjust my self returning after 1 year. GiantBluePanda (talk) 12:53, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I've dropped a note on Coren's talk page. I'm not inclined to offer any more good faith in this situation and think his input as CU is required. Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;   Join WER 12:59, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I've seen talk of getting checkuser input, but what exactly is it that you want us to do? --(ʞɿɐʇ) ɐuɐʞsǝp 14:00, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The user started their career with a checkuser block, which was then reversed due to a possibility of it being in error. I was wanting a second review, per contribs.  Since Coren has received an email from the user and knows the circumstances best, I was thinking he would be the best to re-review. The contribs here are quite arguably trollish and Coren might be able to shine some light on the situation. Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;   Join WER 14:04, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I have very little confidence that this editor is legitimate. The user contacted me after my original block giving a plausible explanation and naming an account as his past account after a clean start.  His story was just coherent enough to give an AGF unblock – and no more.  There are a number of other indicators of trouble and connected accounts that make the situation smelly enough that I had discussed the case (after my unblock) with the other functionaries in case someone recognized a long-term abuse pattern.  While nothing concrete popped up, it's not clear how reasonable continued good faith remains reasonable at this point.  &mdash; Coren (talk) 14:48, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Blocked - Based on the evidence here, including the opinions of ES&L, Reaper, myself and Coren, I have reinstated the original indef block. Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;   Join WER 15:04, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree with the block, unfortunately ... but expect a loud whine in 3...2...1... <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  15:10, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * And he requests an unblock, while not logged in, and geolocating in the exact same geolocation and ISP as previous socks, thus further proving the sock issue. Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;   Join WER 15:16, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Cleanstart revocation
From the above, is it a reasonable assumption that this isn't a CLEANSTART candidate? If so, how does one go about piecing together the paper trail from whatever account was abandoned under a cloud to start trolling as GiantBluePanda? Is it as simple as assuming he's a sock of the puppetmaster that he geolocates to? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Coren know his past identity. GiantSnowman 10:21, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * More precisely, I know of an abandoned account GBP claims to have been his. I'll be keeping an eye on it, and I'll pipe up if it wakes up, but I see no way to reveal a link that may or may not be true between the accounts at this time.  &mdash; Coren (talk) 12:24, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Controversies at the 2012 Summer Olympics
Can somoeone put this debate out of its misery? I attempted WP:SNOW closure a while ago but someone reverted, and since then it's only garnere even more keeps, with 5 days still left to run. HeCameFromTheShadows (talk) 19:23, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * With 24 edits (currently), you attempted a non-admin closure of a controversial AfD without marking it as a non-administrative closure and without even signing your, uh, decision. And someone reverted you? Gee, what a shock.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:32, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * What's controversial about it? It's tanking keep. It was when I attempted closure, it still is now. The revert was only made on the basis that they believe it's not a SNOW case, it had nothing to do with the fact I failed to sign it or anything else as far they were concerned. Do you see something to gain for Wikipedia by letting the article be tagged for a further 5 days? Bearing in mind it's one click away from a number of links exposed to the masses via the Main Page both right now, and in a short time too. HeCameFromTheShadows (talk) 19:41, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * From the definition of controversial: Disagreement, typically when prolonged, public, and heated. Several editors !voted delete in that AfD, so there clearly is disagreement (controversy) in the AfD. VQuakr (talk) 20:26, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * But the argument now is that a keep consensus has been established after the initial snow close. It might have been too early then but is sure as hell (mind the pan) justified now. &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 22:19, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

HeCameFromTheShadows, please tell us who you are a block-evading sock puppet of. --MuZemike 22:15, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ad-hominem. Address the argument, not the man, or take it to a proper venue. &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 22:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No. Given that his very first edits were to remove the cleanup tags and then close the AfD, I think this user owes us an explanation. --MuZemike 22:42, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * My thoughts exactly.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:45, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Wiki-lawyering and rules-parsing by a "new user" to retain articles? I'd bet a plugged nickel on . Tarc (talk) 22:54, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm generally a fast learner, but this time I am a bit slow: Why a plugged nickel? Either you bet something of value or you avoid speculation. Otherwise you are plain rude. &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 23:14, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Otherwise. Tarc (talk) 23:17, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think, however, that you'd lose your nickel in this case. Black Kite (talk) 23:20, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I only take virtual nickels. Tarc, why don't you make yourself useful and pick the nickel in the section right above us? &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 23:30, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, there was a SPI created a couple days ago in which this editor was mentioned; but it wasn't created correctly, so isn't listed at WP:SPI . --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:21, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

In other news, I have closed the discussion as snow keep. BencherliteTalk 22:44, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * In other, other news, the reporting editor has been blocked as a sock. Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;   Join WER 12:43, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Drmies needs to be banned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Drmies is falsifying reasons in order to remove legal notices. Should be dealt with.Rul3rOfW1k1p3d1a (talk) 03:30, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * For reference, this is the diff in question. VQuakr (talk) 03:32, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I've blocked for 24 hours to stop the disruption they were intent upon delivering.  I believe this individual is not here to edit constructively, but I've been wrong before.  Tide  rolls  03:49, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * They're now blocked indefinitely. Of course, if I do get banned, I got a whole drawer full of socks, bwuhaha. Drmies (talk) 15:46, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Admin help needed in ARBMAC area
Cross wiki POV pusher added unconsensus map to the ARBMAC area Kosovo article. I restored original neutral map that was in the article for years, and after that, several reverts occurred, last one by highly involved admin. Kosovo article is under 1RR parole, so i am asking for a some neutral admin to restore original map until talk page discussion is over. None is allowed to push its own povs without agreement, especially when nationalistic causes are fuel. So, admin should restore old consensus map, and wait for a new agreement on talk. We must follow rules. Old map must stay in article until (if) new map is agreed on. -- WhiteWriterspeaks 21:31, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * What's the substantial difference between map #1 and map #2? Obviously I see the topographical elements in one of them, but I mean: why is one neutral and the other not?  Nyttend (talk) 02:49, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The one added by Hannover95 gives Kosovo a bit of extra territory to the north and east. Looie496 (talk) 02:57, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I hadn't noticed that until now, but yes, you're right, the grey one does chop off quite a bit of area from the diamond shape that every other map depicts. Nyttend (talk) 04:10, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please, restore old consensus version! That is essential wiki rule. After we agree on new one, we can easily put it in. This old map is also a default one, as seen in List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe. Each entity should have the same map. -- WhiteWriterspeaks 10:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * There is already extensive discussion on the article talkpage. If that discussion doesn't go your way, coming here to ask for somebody else to revert on your behalf (allowing you to sidestep 1RR), as well as taking it to AN/I is really not a good idea. bobrayner (talk) 13:12, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No, that was great idea. Without neutral editors, who cares about wiki neutrality, Kosovo article would now be pro-RoK altar of nationhood, with coat of arms and Albanian heroes/freedom fighters all over fighting for use of Wikipedia as propaganda tool. -- WhiteWriterspeaks 20:15, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Request for a rude commentary about me be stricken from history
Hello, could someone please remove this insulting commentary about me from the Gumbo article history:



It would be greatly appreciated. --<span style="font-family:lucida sans, sans-serif;">Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 04:29, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Revdelled. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:31, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Worrysome
This might be of administrator interest, since it would be a massive copyright violation. Since Penguin 236 is indeffed and also has no TPA, I'm not quite sure if I should notify him or not. Thekillerpenguin  (talk)  01:40, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you for letting us know. 98.213.109.159 (talk) 01:50, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Where's the allegation of a planned copyvio? Remember that we're set up to permit copying, and some policies that harm the quality of the encyclopedia, such as no-noncommercial-licenses and no-WP-only-permissions, are in place specifically so that others can copy our content without difficulty.  Nyttend (talk) 02:13, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, there would be a copyright problem if they start copying every article. They would be considered a mirror or fork at that point. You are free to copy information from site to site, or wiki to wiki, as long as you attribute where you got it from. Wikipedia operates under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License. So if they don't hyperlink where they got it from on Wikipedia, or attribute the authors on the talk page, edit summary or otherwise, it would be a violation. At that point, you would go through the process of having their content taken down. Since it is a Wikia site, the proper thing to do would notify someone on there to notify them instead of going through the steps of sending a DMCA takedown notice. Regards, — <font color="DD0000">Moe <font color="0000FF">ε  09:04, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * And from a copyright perspective, there's nothing wrong with a mirror or fork that attributes us as its source. Nyttend (talk) 01:50, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

TPA is a write right, not a read right, so I think parties ought to be notifed, even if they have no TPA.-- SPhilbrick (Talk)  20:10, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I have to say I'd be pretty surprised if a schoolkid could get the server capacity needed to host a full Wikipedia mirror. And if he copied 1,000 pages a day it would take him more than 10 years to copy just the articles we have now, before he even started on talk pages, project pages, archives... -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:15, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Psst! This is Negapedia. Uncle G (talk) 12:43, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I saw it - 140 pages so far! -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:50, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I have a sneaking suspicion Penguin 236 is not the only account Mr. Shaking Lord has been using. Any checkusers about? 28bytes (talk) 09:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Extensive copying of enwiki content can also cause problems with circular sourcing &c in future. (I could point out a case where an editor made up a bunch of stuff, it got removed but not before being scraped by a third-party site, then the editor came back and restored the content, citing that third-party site as a source). However, I wouldn't lose much sleep over a site with 140 articles (some effectively blanked), one active editor, and no googlejuice. bobrayner (talk) 13:01, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The only active editor being..da da dun..Shakinglord himself. And as of today, they've given up on their silly little project. Blackmane (talk) 13:05, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Poo. Regards, — <font color="DD0000">Moe <font color="0000FF">ε  14:35, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Request for unblock review request
Sorry to bother you all, but we have an unblock request that's now 10 days old and with the exception of a minor interaction, no administrator has deigned to deal with it. If one of the mop-ers could take a look at it and resolve it one way or annother what would be wonderful. Hasteur (talk) 12:47, 14 August 2012 (UTC)`
 * Heh ... just 'cos I'm not doing unblock reviews right now, doesn't mean the rest of you can't sneak in and do the job ;-P  <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  13:45, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * ESAL, since you seem to be the only administrator who can be bothered to do anything currently, what would the appropriate period to wait on this talk page before I make a pointed repost at ANI? Hasteur (talk) 18:30, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

SPI backlog
Just a heads-up that over 40 cases are now piled up at WP:SPI, some dating back about 3 weeks. A few mops would do well to clean things up around there.... Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:30, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I wished I could help. Don't have the tools. Kumioko (talk) 20:58, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Try this backlog, then... no tools required! 28bytes (talk) 21:54, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Possible need for a deletion of edit summary
It seems like this might meet the criteria for a edit summary deltion. Kumioko (talk) 20:57, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Two things:
 * It is generally contrary to the idea of revision deletion to post in the most public possible forum to ask for it. Email or the talk page of anyone in Category:Wikipedia administrators willing to handle RevisionDelete requests is preferable
 * I don't see how this would qualify, it is the phone number and email of an organisation, not a minor child or unrelated private citizen.
 * I,am going to revert the edit though, something being known to members of a semi-secritive organization is obviosly not proper verification. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:35, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought that having the Phone number and Email address was sufficient to del the summary. Thanks for the link to that Category. Kumioko (talk) 23:19, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

RPP Backlog
Request for Page Protection has a larger backlog than normal. Can someone try to clear it out? Ryan Vesey 21:07, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Youreallycan

 * - Requests for comment/Youreallycan

Hi - looking for wide as possible input - I have made an offer and hope to resolve this with that offer without returning back to the drawing board - imo - its a good offer for me/you and the en wikipedia project in general - please review and comment - thanks - You  really  can  17:55, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I am missing context here, who is this aimed at and what is this about? &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 18:27, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I'm much more interested in some context on Yaniv256, who shows up a month ago with apparent full knowledge of Wikipedia (yeah, I know, you edited for a long time as an IP) and then is suddenly very prominent on the noticeboards. Very interesting, and worth watching to get that context. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:38, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I actually edited as an IP just 3-4 times and signed in as soon as I was reverted and asked to. I'm just fast. Is that so hard to believe? BMK, why don't you go over my contribs, start from the first ones, understand that this is my summer break and it will be over quite soon, and that human beings come in many varieties. And civilly apologize for the bad faith that is implied by your last post.


 * Oh, one last thing, please ask for a check user on me. I would do it myself, but that would get me blocked. Trust me, I would be grateful if you do. &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 21:32, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Just one request. Please don't out me. It should be quite easy to find out who I am, but it would hurt my career if my colleges knew how I have been wasting my time. They are quite under the impression that writing papers is the meaning of life. &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 21:39, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It's easy to link Yaniv256 to an IP with around 35 edits, but not particularly helpful to do so. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 21:45, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Would you mind sharing that IP with me so I can check if they are really mine? I am on a university network, which I think is dynammic. You all know which university, but don't say! &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 22:53, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

BMK, is there anything you would like to share with the community? &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 23:36, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

RM backlog escape
The editors on 2007–2012 global financial crisis have an RM that is stuck in Requested moves limbo for almost a week. The page is kind of a high profile one so some favoritism seems in order. I'm posting this request here following a referal from the teahouse. &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 18:34, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Is there a form I can fill to get this thing going? &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 00:30, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Just trying to get some attention here. &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 01:44, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd recommend posting at Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure, if you haven't done so already. Patience, Grasshopper.... Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 01:47, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you sure? Because, a) It's an RM, not some general discussion and is already in the proper backlog, and b) There is only one poster in Requests for closure, suggesting it is effectively deserted. Do you have any other ideas? &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 02:09, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Eh, getting more exposure wouldn't hurt. Maybe drop a line at WP:AN/I as well. Not within the scope of the board, yes, but at least it'll have a chance of being seen (even if only to be turned away officially there). Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:12, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but it is not important enough for me to get disruptive. The teahouse sent me here and for now I'll stay. While we are on the topic of getting admin attention, did you ever consider the fact that the first hit on a google search of bureaucracy is a Wikipedia page? &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 02:29, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * W/e, not too worried about it. Just another system to learn the ins, outs, shortcuts, and hidden passages of. Ain't that life.... Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 03:04, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

The following is addressed only at the 1,465 members of the admin class: What is wrong with you people? This is a clear consensus routine RM execution on a high profile page. You don't even bother to look? You sure seem to enjoy executing your powers in other cases, why not this one? No chance of block implies no fun? As an economist this is quite clear to me, without incentives there is no reason to expect effort. As a humen being I can't help but be somewhat disappointed and find the loops you guys jump through to protect your lifetime appointments quite tasteless. And please don't answer me. I am not here looking to make conversation. Just get the job done! &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 05:00, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Be patient, mon - this has been here but a day. Someone will get to it when they get to it, and even though there is a pretty chart, anyone actually closing the discussion would still need to look at the actual comments and read through the thing themselves. This takes time, and that there is a backlog of these requests in general is evidence of that, but they do get done. Meantime why not go poke some other backlog youself? -— Isarra ༆ 06:07, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * And being abusive to people (who are all volunteers) is really not an effective way of asking them to help you. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:36, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I went ahead and closed the discussion. Have spent a week trying to avoid doing so (who needs grief and, for Yaniv256, a 'slow to close discussion' usually implies that admins are trying to avoid grief) but somebody's gotta do it. --regentspark (comment) 13:37, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for taking the initiative. Action was needed. I am just curious about one thing, is there any particular reason why you considered participating in the debate inappropriate? &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 16:09, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No, action was not "needed". Last time I checked there was a queue of over 200 RM's waiting to be closed.  Articles can still be edited whether they have the consensus-based title or not, so an RM is not an urgent action.  Nobody's RM is any more important than anyone else's RM.  Because there's no time limit on editing or renaming articles, patience is indeed a virtue.  Using up your "get out of jail free" card on an RM was a waste <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  17:55, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Is that what I used? I was positive I put my "get into jail free" card on the table, but have been known to err in such matters. &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 20:05, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that was a pretty dumb way to draw attention to the very non-urgent RM...you did almost get blocked for that, and rightly so. <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda  19:08, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * In my calculation if I got blocked that would only be good for me as it would clear my mind from the obsession to try and change that which seems wrong and mutable, but carries no private benefits for the reformer. Is that line of thinking truly alien to you? &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 19:29, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Requesting your own block in order to draw attention to a non-urgent RM situation was disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, which you can note often carries an indefinite block <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda 19:36, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Again, in my calculation even an indef block has possible downside only for Wikipedia. I, personally, have much to gain from such a "sanction". It will be a prize I have not yet earned, but a prize nonetheless. If I ever switch sides and claim that it is good for me to be here, please call the doctor because I havn't been taking my meds. &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 20:06, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If you don't want to be here, the solution is quite simple: go away. There's no requirement that you edit Wikipedia. In the meantime, stop fucking around. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:19, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Ok, lets start from the basics. Please read the following with long long pauses, in the voice of your father, if he loved you, or your mother, if she did. What, in your view, is the proper notion of duty? Does it mean anything at all? Where are your duties? Would it be common for a duty to be pleasant and win one many friends? Does one often stand to gain personally from fulfilling his duties? Who defines your duties? What would happen if you disregard your duty? And finally, since it is likely that people like Hitler and Stalin operated under a strong sense of duty, how do you make sure that you are not making similar errors when carrying out your duty? &rarr;Yaniv256talkcontribs 05:46, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Enough, please. Black Kite (talk) 08:24, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Request Administrative closure of merge discussion at Talk:Mass (liturgy)
This discussion has been static for two months: only the proposer favoured the merge and three editors rejected it. There seems to be clear & well-founded arguments against merging, but as one of the involved editors I feel unable to close the discussion. Thank you Jpacobb (talk) 00:50, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Univolved admin
- needed for an SPI closure here. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:49, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

BLOCK MEEE
I think I will never be editing Wikipedia again with this account.So, I am requesting you to block my account permanently to avoid misuse.BiologyArtist (talk) 10:06, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please review WP:BLOCKME. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 10:12, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅. For several reasons besides user's own request. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:44, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

IP user giivng personal attacks
the ip user who has been posting here Talk:Rangers_F.C. and has said the same thing on ANI at one point in the last month

quote

"How can The Rangers have a rivalry with Celtic if they have never played them before or are even in the same division ? it does not make sense Andrew Crawford, oops sorry 'british watcher' — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:13, 10 August 2012 (UTC)"

im not happy at the contunied assessertions i ma the user british watcher just because the content dispute being resolved in a way that doesnt suit there pov, im the focus of the attack because i was the one that steered the direction of content dispute-- Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 14:57, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That particular IP only has 3 posts and they were all on the 10th. In any case, I don't think this noticeboard is the place for the discussion. Maybe WP:AN/I, but without knowing what other IP addresses they've used, I can't say for sure. --Onorem♠Dil 15:37, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * here is the other ip




 * here is the original accusations they made :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive761#I_am_being_threaten_by_a_ip_user<font color="Light Blue">Andrewcrawford ( talk  -  contrib ) 16:00, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Background

 * Sockpuppet investigations/Peter Damian (Sockpuppet investigations/Peter Damian/Archive)
 * Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive44
 * Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive554
 * Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive555
 * Administrators' noticeboard/Archive209
 * Administrators' noticeboard/Archive214
 * Administrators' noticeboard/Archive222
 * message by Peter Damian to the Foundation-l mailing list on 2011-10-24
 * Administrators' noticeboard/Archive222
 * message by Peter Damian to the Foundation-l mailing list on 2011-10-24

Request by Volunteer Marek
Over at Wikipediocracy the topic of the Core Contest has recently been raised (in a positive manner). User:Peter Damian, who has been banned on Wikipedia, but who is a specialist in the field of late 13th century philosophy indicated that he would be interested in massively improving the Duns Scotus article for the contest. Duns Scotus is one of the top three medieval Philosophers, along with Aquinas and Ockham so the article definitely falls within the purview of the Core Contest.

It is my understanding that Peter was originally blocked for some mutually problematic interactions with another particular, single, user. Notably, AFAIK there has never been any question as to the quality and integrity of his content related edits in the Philosophy area, and importantly for this request, the “other user” involved in past conflicts with Peter has never edited or shown an interest in that particular article.

Hence, I would like to propose that Peter Damian is provisionally unblocked for the sole purpose of improving the Duns Scotus article. Effectively Peter would be “topic banned from all of Wikipedia EXCEPT the Duns Scotus article and its talk page” (and also his own talk page, since I think he’s not blocked from that either). He would work on improving the Duns Scotus article, hopefully get it up to GA or FA status, and then submit it to Core for review. If he does edit anything but the Duns Scotus article and its talk page, his block can be reinstated.

If all goes well, this would be an opportunity for Peter to show that he is capable of non-controversial participation in Wikipedia and after the contest ends we could have another discussion about whether the ban could be relaxed further. Volunteer Marek 16:10, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think something worth noting is that the history of his talk page notes that if he wants his talk page unprotected and/or wants to be unbanned, that he contact ArbCom. I don't a simple relaxing here would be appropriate without contact with them first. Regards, — <font color="DD0000">Moe <font color="0000FF">ε  16:35, 11 August 2012 (UTC)


 * As per above, this is outside the remit of ANI/the community as a whole. <font style="color:#ffffff;background:black;">dangerous <font style="color:#000000;background:white;">panda 16:39, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the (very quick) closure of the request here - Peter Damian wasn't banned by the ArbCom but at AN/I. Hence, it is within the scope of the community decision whether to allow this or not. Volunteer Marek 17:12, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the history here it seems the last unblock discussion took place at WP:AN, which is probably where this request should go, right? Volunteer Marek 17:23, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Unarchived; while Peter Damian was under arbcom sanction the ban was a community ban by ANI discussion. The community is per policy allowed to unban those it bans (arbcom is another appeal point, but we can undo anything we can do). Unarchived on this procedural basis. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:10, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Should it stay here or be taken to WP:AN? Volunteer Marek  18:15, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Formally AN, but we've allowed discussions starting here to stay here. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:23, 11 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Support conditional unban: Peter Damian (under whichever account he chooses - but just that one) should be allowed to edit Duns Scotus, over the next couple of weeks, upon which his efforts should be evaluated and a full unban should be considered.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:24, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support as proposer. Volunteer Marek  20:33, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:BEANS. We shouldn't condone editors evading their bans to disrupt Wikipedia to win a contest. Per below. Regards, — <font color="DD0000">Moe <font color="0000FF">ε  20:38, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Dude, chill out. He's not "disrupting Wikipedia to win a contest". He's trying to improve an important article. If it makes you feel better, we could just say that if he does somehow win the Core Contest, his winnings (which I think are like 20 bucks or something) will be donated to Wikimedia foundation. Volunteer Marek 20:41, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * He's not? His article choice was rejected in part as it wasn't a tier 4 article, to which he promptly quit promising "mainstream press" about Wikipedia article quality, then reverted his edits to the article he intended to help by reinserting misinformation. What part of that is helpful? Regards, — <font color="DD0000">Moe <font color="0000FF">ε  20:52, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It was not "rejected" (I think it's hard to get an entry "rejected" from that contest) - someone just pointed out it wasn't on the Tier 4 list. The subsequent discussion on the talk clearly indicates that people think the article is certainly significant. Volunteer Marek 01:31, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Let me rephrase, then. Peter felt it was rejected based on a judges opinion, to which he quit and then redacted all his edits to the article. Regards, — <font color="DD0000">Moe <font color="0000FF">ε  01:48, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * That's unfortunate, but also easily correctable. This is a Wiki and editable.  Why not try to talk to the guy.  He obviously wants to play on the Wiki but is also pissed off at the shunning. Don't make it all some all or nothing, decide it now, drama.  Give the man a chance and try to make it work.TCO (talk) 01:55, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Support For this very specific editing purpose that I believe Wikipedia would benefit from, as Peter Damian can easily be acknowledged as being an expert on the subject of Scotus. I should add that he should also be allowed to edit the Core Contest entry page, obviously, and also be allowed to respond to any dispute resolution processes that are started directly about him. Silver  seren C 21:54, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support It's been years. Nobody Ent 22:08, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. Subject matter expert wants to improve article.  Please let him. Antandrus  (talk) 22:39, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Strongest possible oppose. Looking through the behavior when he was banned, there seems ample evidence that this is somebody the encyclopedia does not need - and given that he's still socking right now it's blatantly obvious that he has not reformed in the least. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:47, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose I will never support unbanning this editor. His past behavior showed a level of malice of the sort that does not go vanish over time, and his capabilities make him too dangerous to fool around with. Looie496 (talk) 23:43, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * and his capabilities make him too dangerous to fool around with - what, he shoots lasers from his eyes? Volunteer Marek  01:30, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * He's way more dangerous than that. Count Iblis (talk) 20:07, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I might just love you for that reference. Arkon (talk) 03:04, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Support for a valuable contributor, provided Peter drops any vengeful agenda he may have against various editors and administrators. I've seen a lot worse than Peter get second chances...Modernist (talk) 23:49, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose for two reasons: 1) per The Bushranger - Peter has a long record of causing problems, and appears to be clearly acting in bad faith 2) if Peter wants his ban lifted, he needs to apply for it himself, and make appropriate commitments himself as part of this. VM doesn't state that he's acting as Peter's proxy in this matter, and even if he was this would be unacceptable. Nick-D (talk) 00:02, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I linked to the Wikipediocracy discussion above, which should be sufficient. And I'm not sure what exactly is supposed to be "unacceptable" here (did you mean "even if he was not"?) Volunteer Marek  01:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If he wants to be blocked, he can make a genuine request by emailing ArbCom per the usual arrangements for banned editors whose talk page has been turned off. His posts on Wikipediocracy makes no meaningful commitments to stick to a single article or behave in an acceptable fashion, and it appears that this is entirely about proving some kind of point about how foolish Wikipedia is by not letting him contribute. Nick-D (talk) 06:35, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Symbol support vote.png|15px]] unban. Yeah, the dude is not perfect, but who is.  This ban crap is much more about some sort of social forum shunning game than really defending the editorial content process at Wiki.  Makes me sick.  Let the guy in.TCO (talk) 01:21, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Peter Damian does not appear to understand why he is banned, and says at Wikipediocracy, "It would be newsworthy if I were blocked for trying to improve the Wikipedia article on Scotus." While it is unfortunate that the Scotus article has been neglected, I can forsee conflict.  TFD (talk) 01:55, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose First, we should be considering the interests of the encyclopedia; it is obvious from this individual's statements elsewhere, that the interests of the encyclopedia are not why he wants to edit the article in question. Second, banned really does mean banned, and creating extra sockpuppets to get round a ban, does not result in the lifting of that ban. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:02, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Support, Hell, full-unban him and welcome him to the Re-Established Editors Association. PD's a sharp guy and will do good work. Remember? Project. Build Encyclopaedia. Anyone Canz Edit. I've seen a lot worse than 'Peter' editing without restriction. And nobody go and block him; ya might piss him off (oh, right, that would be the intent). Br&#39;er Rabbit (talk) 02:16, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ambox content.png nb: Article needs attention from an expert on the subject.


 * Oppose, I was ready to support this, but revelations that he's still socking despite a ban scotched that. If he's not willing to follow the "don't edit when banned" rule, what other rules is he not willing to follow?  Lankiveil (speak to me) 02:23, 12 August 2012 (UTC).


 * Oppose - Are we not yet tired of having our chain yanked by people like this? Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:06, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose unban. Why should he get an unblock just for his own personal gain? Jtrainor (talk) 08:13, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * because in this case his gain is also wikipedias gain.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 12:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I've no opinion about this particular editor's history or merits, but on general principles, oppose unban of any banned editors who are actively socking (as per the section below).  Sandstein   14:00, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Life can be very lonely if you live by such a black and white rule book. "I've no opinion...but rules is rules". Ceoil (talk)


 * Perhaps Peter could rewrite the Scotus article in wiki format and post it, cc-by-sa, somewhere off Wikipedia (Wikipediocracy?). If it's an improvement, an editor in good standing may replace the existing article with it, or parts of it. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:32, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment - As a pro-WP active Wikipedian who also posts with some regularity at Wikipediocracy, I just want to share a couple thoughts for what they are worth. There are a range of anti-WP folk who post there who range from frustrated barred editors to out-and-out jihadists seeking the day in which they can dance on the grave of a completely annihilated Wikipedia. Do not act presumptively and treat them all like the latter, it only fuels the hatred. Strive for both calmness and rationality in decision-making. Even if the answer is "no thank you," make sure to do the legwork to provide a rational basis for that opinion. Carrite (talk) 17:24, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Support. Note that he could remained blocked; he can then contribute from his talk page. Count Iblis (talk) 20:07, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment My take is that Peter is a very capable and knowledgable editor, who got eaten up and thrown to the wolves as part of a personality driven power struggle. Which is now irrelevant; it was friggin eons ago in internet years, and most of the principals are long gone. There is a clear need for people like him here, and any keeping the block in place is self defeating and feeds adigation. Ceoil (talk) 00:04, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Strongest possible oppose. I'm shocked that this is even being considered. "Peter Damian" has behaved appallingly towards multiple editors, including myself. Even though he and I had never previously quarrelled, as far as I'm aware, he gratuitously and vindictively posted personal information about me off-wiki to assist the campaign of a banned editor who had carried out multiple campaigns of harassment against others. He knew perfectly well what he was doing and that he was likely to cause harm by doing so. He has never apologised or even expressed regret for his actions, which forced me to abandon my previous account here. If he had not already been indefinitely blocked, I have no doubt that he would have been for his actions. This individual is utterly unfit to be a member of this community. If someone is foolish enough to unblock him I guarantee that he will spend more time before Arbcom answering for his actions than he will on editing any articles. Prioryman (talk) 00:40, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * thats a fairly brutal accusation there Prioryman; lets me understand this correctly, once an editor is blocked, NPA is off, and you can say what the hell you like, with no need for diffs to back up the claims? My openion is you should be blocked yourself now, for this. "likely to cause harm". Jesus. "forced me to abandon my previous account here". Right. Your unsupported mud sticks tactic is getting tired. Ceoil (talk) 01:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If he is unblocked then there will be evidence aplenty in an arbitration case against him. I wouldn't be saying this if I didn't have a leg to stand on. I'm not providing diffs here because of the privacy issue. As for NPA, truth is an absolute defence. Prioryman (talk) 07:46, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Wow, ChrisO/Prioryman/Helatrobus continues his favorite tactic of accusing others of "campaigns of harassment." Prioryman used the same tactics on behalf of a friend in a recent arbcom case, rather amazingly avoiding fresh sanctions on top of his long history of sanctions under previous accounts. Good for him. Still sleazy as hell though. Here's how it ended for his friend, who favored the same tactics .Bali ultimate (talk) 16:25, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Why is ChrisO allowed to still spin unsupported untruths like this with so little challenge or you know, diffs. This is exactly like the unsupported PA's that let Fae damage other editors for so long. If ever there was argument for a damaging blind spot on wiki <hear no evil; or we will will grind you with solipsism>, here, this. Ceoil (talk) 01:37, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose I'm with Prioryman on this one; this is an appalling idea. As has been noted, most effectively and concisely by Bushranger, this is not a teenager who has now matured. This is someone whose effect on the encyclopedia has been overwhelmingly negative, and I see no reason to think that would change. KillerChihuahua ?!? 00:52, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support For the exact limited proposal. That some regard him as being on an eternal "anathema list" should not mean we never use him for limited purposes.  Heck - the Pope even preached at a Lutheran church.   We ought not be less forgiving, ought we? Collect (talk) 00:56, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I like the pope anology, there have been two active popes at times ;) Ceoil (talk) 01:22, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Strong Oppose - simply put, no one who is actively evading their ban should be unbanned. I'd be willing to consider an unban if Peter Damian could demonstrate that he understands and is willing to abide by our policies, but the fact that he's continuing to evade his ban using sockpuppets demonstrates his continued unsuitability for Wikipedia. If he's not willing to show any respect for us and our rules, why should we show any respect for him? There are some who are able to learn from their mistakes and change themselves, and some who aren't, and Peter Damian has sadly demonstrated he's in the latter category. Robofish (talk) 02:01, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - I've read a number of his articles and find them to be impressive. We need content editors of his caliber. I have no idea of the background. Truthkeeper (talk) 02:27, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - banned is banned, and this proposal is in direct conflict with that ban; the community weighed his contributions then against his behaviour and considered it an acceptable loss, so we really should stick to that consensus unless we actually intend to reverse it in full. Unfortunately, while this would be the place to discuss doing that, he apparently hasn't exactly made a very good case for himself in the meantime for that, either. -— Isarra ༆ 07:26, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Creating content is what we're here for, but the only way that works in the long run is if everyone plays by the same rules. AFAICS, PD is utterly recalcitrant and continues to either directly act towards or to agitate for disruption to the project. That is quite different from the likes of Br'er, whose return to good graces was due to his having ceased the behaviour which caused him to be originally sanctioned. There is nothing preventing PD from going that same route, and we essentially standardised the process years ago. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:09, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * oppose If a banned user is currently (or quite recently) socking, they are basically letting us know they aren't willing to play by our rules. I'd favor the "standard offer" being open to this user, but those conditions clearly aren't met at this time. Even editors who have been abusive in the past (Jack/Br'er) are allowed to return if they can keep their nose clean for a good long while.    Hobit (talk) 14:49, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Conditional support. Can somebody tell me if hi socks are disruptive? If no, I see no reason not to extend WP:OFFER. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 16:03, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * OFFER doesn't apply to users who are actively socking, he would need to stop doing that first. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:26, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that this isn't a proposal to completely unban him. It's a proposal to just unban him for a single article. Volunteer Marek 17:26, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I've made that sort of deal with him before and found that he was  unwilling to abide by it. Nobody has brought up anything here to change that impression, quite the opposite. We banned him, and he chose to ignore that as well. He has no respect whatsoever for Wikipedia's consensus based model. He has made  that abundantly clear again and again. That's fine, he doesn't have to like it, and we don't have to unban him. I don't buy all this hogwash about how we will never have a good article on these subjects if we don't let him do it personally. That's complete nonsense. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:35, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * But this just isn't true. I don't see any kind of "deal making" there. You unblocked his talk page access because there was a discussion on ANI (your first diff). While unblocked he posted suggestions for article improvement (!) on his talk page. Then some one else got in a huff and said "oh noes, we can't have suggestions for article improvement beying posted to this talk page!" and reblocked him (your second diff). As far as I can tell the actual suggestions for article improvement were good ones. And that same admin who insisted on reblocking him simply for making article improvement suggestions on his talk page went and deleted a whole bunch of completely legit and well written articles, simply because Peter was the one who edited/wrote them. These deletions also had to be undone - creating much unnecessary work and drama in the process - quite simply because they were improvements to the project. So, no, there was no "deal" that he somehow broke, rather as User:WJBscribe said at the time "If what someone chooses to do while banned is write decent content, then I think that's a pretty clear indication we made a mess of things in the first place." . It's this same mentality as described by WJBScribe (and at this point probably a bit of personal grudges) that are the clear roadblock here, not Peter Damian. Volunteer Marek 22:01, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I know what the diffs are. The first one is me telling him he is unblocked from his talk page for the sole purpose of appealing hos block and nothing else. Thesecond is him being reblocked because he did everything but the one thing the talk page unlock was intended to let him do. Whether his ushgestions were valid or not is not the point. An arrangement was made to allow him to do something, and he did something else instead. I see no reason to believe he won't do it again. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:09, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Support. Drmies (talk) 18:54, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Hell no. This person's only interest in Wikipedia is as a platform for his own opinions and his own activism. Guy (Help!) 08:16, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Allowing him to build up that article sounds like a nice idea. He's not diseased or anything, pretty sure you can let him touch an article without it destroying Wikipedia.--The Devil&#39;s Advocate (talk) 14:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - In my opinion this is a skilled editor with specialist knowledge that would be a plus for the project. I challenge opponents to actually take a look at the editor's previous contributions. If disruption takes place in any form, I don't doubt there are a legion of editors and administrators ready to swarm. Carrite (talk) 15:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose: There is no place whatsoever on WP for a block-evading user that was blocked for very good reasons. Unblocking would bring no benefit to the project. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 13:03, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. Don't see the harm if he's restricted to a specific article that needs work. Opposing that is like cutting off our nose to spite our face—at least if we're serious about wanting to be a competently written encyclopedia.  J N  466  13:09, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose of course Peter Damien should be welcomed back. But first we need assurances that he has reformed sufficiently to be trusted here. Six months without socking would be a start, though we also need assurances that he will comply with the rest of the rules here. But allowing him back to edit one specific article is the wrong approach - we don't dispute his competence, he was banned despite being a subject matter expert not because of it. Letting him back to edit one article would be an appropriate return route for an editor banned for copy vio or lack of competence, it isn't the right route back for him.  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  13:56, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Did he engage in sockpuppetry before he was banned? If not then I do not think sockpuppetry should be used to argue against lifting his ban.--The Devil&#39;s Advocate (talk) 15:22, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * What utter nonsense. We hold it against blocked users all the time, every day, if they evade their block. Evding a ban is even worse. What is the argument here, that he is such a valiable comtributor tha the rules should nto apply to him? That he ignored his ban because he knows we need him to keep going? What? Beeblebrox (talk) 17:03, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose Not worth the potential disruption. wctaiwan (talk) 16:40, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Possible sock
Well, I just found this: Sporadic edits between 2010 to now, including edits to talk page of Jimbo. Peter Damian writes on Wikipediocracy on August 9: "I'm thinking about entering on behalf of the beleaguered article on Duns Scotus (T-H-L). Not actually listed as vital, but current academic view is that Scotus ranks in the top three medieval philosophers (together with Ockham and Aquinas) in terms of notability, and probably is in the first position, so it should be there." The same day on August 9, Quisquiliae returns to editing and writes in User:Quisquiliae/sandbox: "Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy and Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy both agree that Scotus is up there with Aquinas and Ockham as the three most important philosophers of the High Scholastic period (c. 1200-1350)." and then proceeds to make sweeping changes to the Duns Scotus article mentioned, entering it on The Core Contest/Entries for the above mentioned contest. He also messaged Casliber, another participant in the Wikipediocracy thread, about editing the Scotus article. WP:DUCK seems to be quacking with this one. Regards, — <font color="DD0000">Moe <font color="0000FF">ε  16:48, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Sock confirmed, User:Quisquiliae is banned editor User:Peter Damian posting on Wikipediocracy "Oh well Scotus has been disallowed " and "So this towering giant of the Western intellectual tradition is not allowed on a list that includes Bing Crosby" in reply to his message as Quisquiliae. Any administrator willing to block this sockpuppet of Peter's for evading his ban? Regards, — <font color="DD0000">Moe <font color="0000FF">ε  19:26, 11 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Seems to be a fairly poor idea to block Peter Damian or his sock for trying to improve the article which is the topic of his professional expertise. Bound to send a bad message to potential expert editors. Has User:Quisquilliae caused any problems on wiki? Any disruption? Any block worthy behavior? Would we really be helping wikipedia by blocking him, or might this be one of those occasions where adherence to the rules are an obstacle to the improvement of the encyclopedia?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:10, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * "Any block worthy behavior?" How about being a block-evading sockpuppet of a community banned editor? That's all the reason needed, full stop. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:49, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If he's banned, he's banned. There's no point in having a banning policy and community ban discussions if we're just going to close our eyes to violations of the ban. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:15, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Au contraire There is no point in keeping people banned if their not being banned would benefit the encyclopedia. The rules are useful when they are useful - when they are not they are not. In this case it seems to me that disallowing an expert from editing the particular topic of his expertise will be harmful both to wikipedia's content and its reputation. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:21, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Letting somebody who disrupted the encyclopedia to the point of being given the boot by the community freely sockpuppet and get away with it scot-free will harm Wikipedia's content and reputation far more than blocking the block-evading sockpuppet ever could. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:49, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This is plainly silly. And false. Letting somebody who sockpuppeted to improve an article, actually improve that article "legitimately" will clearly NOT "harm Wikipedia's content and reputation far more" than, well, than pretty much everything else. How exactly would it? This is just empty hyperbole. Look, not all sock puppets are created equal. Some people sock puppet to insert vandalisms into articles, some sock puppet to win a content dispute, and some sock puppet to gain an admin-ship after being disgraced. This is none of these. This was sockpuppeting just simply in order to improve an article. "Full stop". You can scream "them's the rulez!!!" as loud as you want, but mostly you just make yourself sound close minded and silly, especially since commons sense (and WP:IAR) clearly indicate the opposite. Volunteer Marek 00:10, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't believe accusing Jimbo of enabling theft is exactly the most appropriate behavior. On wiki, that is probably the only unhelpful of edits (all the edits in that conversation to be exact). Off-wiki is another matter, because he gives his intention to cause disruption to Wikipedia on the Wikipediocrasy thread because his article wasn't chosen. He was banned in the first place because he was disruptive and he caused disruption with sockpuppets to the point the community got sick of him. Since his article wasn't chosen for the contest, he went and reverted all his edits to the article back to a previous revision. He only wanted to participate in productive article writing since there was an award incentive and since he can't win, he doesn't care anymore. He has no intention of helping Wikipedia, it is quite apparent, and Quisquiliae needs to be blocked for evading his ban. Regards, — <font color="DD0000">Moe <font color="0000FF">ε  20:31, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * However, if he's unbanned by community discussion, that's a different matter. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:19, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Until then, Quisquiliae needs to be blocked. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:49, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Might be best to lay out the previous discussions (has no-one linked to them yet?) So we have a community ban discussion here from this enforcement request from this discussion. There will be more. I do think it needs to be considered with all the background on the table. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:56, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Been thinking about this as this has been discussed by the arbitration committee at some point (can't remember exactly when and I need to refresh my memory). It is worth noting that many of the discussers of the community ban are no longer actively editing, and this issue could be considered as deriving from an arbitration process. Furthermore I think some history needs to be absorbed by folks considering this. My initial question would be whether the community wants further discussion to be by the committee or by the community. So that'd be a good question to sort out first. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:21, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * There's a lot of material from the Arbcom mailing list on Wikipedia Review. It should let you find when things happened.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:31, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I tend to think that ArbCom need to be involved at some level, since that was the root of the issue, and there seems to be a bit more than meets the eye going on. If he was socking (which has not been "confirmed" as far as I can tell, at least per the standards at WP:SPI/CU) that would complicate matters.  I don't have an opinion on the unbanning although I'm obviously for bringing back highly skilled (but policy respecting) editors, but I think it does need more than a day's worth of chat at WP:AN.  Dennis Brown -  2&cent;    &copy;   Join WER 22:54, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * There's a lot more than meets the eye, here. Casliber was quite right above.  This is one of those things that has years of accumulated history.  I put the background in above &mdash; because I had the same thought as Casliber at about the same time.  There are several things that I did not put in.  Some will just stir up issues that I'm sure we're all sick of hearing about.  But others are things like, , , , , and , only one of which is even on the SPI casepage, notice.  The SPI case isn't the whole of the matter, by any means.    Uncle G (talk) 23:23, 11 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Not sure why nobody else was willing to block this self confessed sockpuppet, but it is done now. Obviously I oppose unbanning anyone who is actively evading their ban. We set a very bad precedent here recently by letting someone get away with this. I said at the time that it would only lead to more banned users and WP:LTA cases trying the same thing, and here we are already. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I will give notice here that if "Peter Damian" is unblocked I will bring him to arbitration for his off-wiki campaign of outing and harassment against me. This is not just a sockpuppeteer, people, there have been very much nastier things going on here. Prioryman (talk) 00:53, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * An interesting position, indeed. Collect (talk) 00:58, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Especially considering Prioryman's own history. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:10, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Message from Quisquiliae
He left a final response here. To some extent, I agree with him. Silver seren C 11:54, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Why was he banned?
Could someone give an executive summary of why he was banned? (But a somewhat longer summary than him being a nuisance). I remember trying to figure this out after I came across a note by a valued colleague who stated he left WP because, among other things, the "situation with Peter Damian," but soon gave up after having to follow a whole mess of linked discussions. I wasn't even able to figure out whether he left because PD was banned or because he wasn't banned soon enough. (Upd.: I'm now pretty convinced it was the former.) The discussions Casliber mentioned above also seem to be from after the situation had apparently escalated. —Ruud 19:29, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * He was banned several times for a variety of reasons; however enough time has passed - he has a clear capacity to create high quality content - and the time has come to give him another shot at editing with perhaps a few provisos from arbcom. That seems fair given the recent return of a couple of problematic editors who are now making significant and positive contributions again, (thorny persona and all)...Modernist (talk) 20:53, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem here of course is that history is repeating itself. See archive 214 of this very noticeboard.  What happened there is what's happened here:  An unban is requested by a third party.  People discover that sockpuppetry to evade the ban was ongoing at the time.  They object because of that.  Peter Damian withdraws the request.  It happened there.  It's just happened here.  History has repeated itself more than once on this, and not only when it comes to the unban requests.  Uncle G (talk) 21:43, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * No. No-one can do that.  There is, at this point, some six years of history here.  Peter Damian's first edit using an account was in June 2003 and things went bad in 2006.  The six years since cannot be boiled down into a short "executive summary".  The history here includes a whole lot of things including (a) the Wikipedia-promotes-paedophilia dispute, (b) Peter Damian's interations with other editors, (c) a ban by Jimbo, (d) the whole FT2 incident including accusations levelled at FT2 and legal threats, (e) the Foundation-l mailing list ban, (f) the current Ash/Fae incident, (g) currently ongoing disputes over images at Commons, (h) currently ongoing disputes with Wikimedia UK, (i) breaching experiments (reported by SlimVirgin in 2010), and (j) the off-wiki "destroy Wikipedia" incident.  With the best will in the world, Ruud Koot, the only answer here is to do the reading.  Uncle G (talk) 21:43, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Just noting that Uncle G's reference above to "breaching experiments (reported by SlimVirgin in 2010)" isn't quite correct. I proposed in 2010 here that Peter Damian be unblocked, and within that proposal there was reference to past incidents that might be described as breaching experiments. I've asked Uncle G to strike that part of his post in case it gives the impression that I opposed an unblock, but he hasn't, so I'm leaving this note instead. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:07, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I think that "further reading" only shows how ridiculous Wikipedia can be at times. For example the "destroy Wikipedia" incident, from the comment by the closing administrator (and current arbitrator) User:Xeno: Peter has been unblocked and has been asked not to destroy, or attempt to destroy, Wikipedia. Similarly, several folks have admonished Law for blocking a user for off-wiki hyperbole. Nothing more productive shall come of this discussion. Note also that of course, Law who did the blocking of Peter that time, got desysopped, sock puppeted, got adminned again then had to be blocked and desysopped again (and original account indeffed ). Of course THAT user is still merrily editing away as if nothing happened. I think Peter has much to contribute, so why doesn't he get another chance? What's the difference? Lack of powerful friends?
 * Additionally, like I said in the proposal, while there was some trouble with FT2, FT2 has *never* expressed interest in the Duns Scotus article, so that shouldn't be an issue. Volunteer Marek  22:53, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I find it ironic that you try to drag the whole Law/undertow thing into this. You left out the part about the undertow being banned for six months, and the two admins we lost because they did not reveal that they knew he was a sock. So the real precendent here is that we do not put up with block evasion, even if you do have so called "powerful friends." Beeblebrox (talk) 01:29, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * "Ironic" how? It was brought up by someone else above, more or less as a "you should look into the background" kind of thing - so yeah, the background should be looked into. But it's apples and oranges. One guy - Law/Undertow - was evading a ban (with full knowledge of some "powerful friends") in order to essentially get the admin powers back so he could start abusing these privileges. The other guy - Peter Damian - evaded a block to ... improve a freakin' important encyclopedia article! And that's what he did. Do you have your priorities straight here? This ain't facebook, it's still an encyclopedia. Volunteer Marek 02:34, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I assume the irony would be if you were aware of his socking. In that case you'd be bring up a case where others were punished for not reported known socking of a banned user. Not sure if ironic is the right word though... Hobit (talk) 15:24, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Note that it is possible to eliminate the problems regarding interactions with other editors. Just keep him blocked and giving him access to his talk page, so that he can put whatever he wants to edit there and someone else can take move that to article space. Count Iblis (talk) 01:46, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This is a reasonable proposal. Volunteer Marek  02:34, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps whitelisting pages for him to edit via requests on his talkpage? If he wants to edit something (mainspace or otherwise), he can make a formal request on his talkpage to be reviewed by an admin. If he edits a page without approval, he could be subject to varying warnings and sanctions. Idk, maybe a bit bureaucratic, but might alleviate concerns of renewed disruption. But that would be just an editing restriction; any unban should come from community discussion. Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:08, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * We don't need anyone who would require that level of supervision to be able comtribute without causing drama. And what you are suggesting would be unbanning. By banning user, the community is stating that no matter how good their contributions are, they are outweighed by the problems assosciated with them. I don't see any indication that the problems with PDs behavior are resolved, instead I see gullible users playing right into his hands by suggesting that he, and he alone, is the only person who could fix this article and we must construct some byzantine structure to allow him to edit it or the project is doomed. I can't believe you folks can't see that you are being suckered. This is exactly what he wants, to be held up as the expert white knight who doesn't need to observe community norms because he is too valuable to be restricted by them. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:21, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Snip, snip, snip! If you had read carefully, you'd find that that that was not an unban proposal at all: "any unban would come from community discussion". Punkt. What I detailed was an idea for an editing restriction should he be unbanned that would hopefully address concerns of all sides here. I don't have many ponies in this parade at all; I was merely throwing out some musings of mine after passively watching this thread develop. Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:16, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Blocked from user talk page
Is there a serious negative to allowing Peter to edit his talk page for the purpose of rewriting the article? Let's face it: it wouldn't exactly be difficult to reblock him, even on flimsy grounds, given his history here. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 08:38, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Ed, I think that there is - he's been socking, and this 'request' from him appears to have the motivation of proving some kind of point (from what I can be bothered reading on Wikipediocracy, he seems to view his ban as evidence that Wikipedia is unwisely preventing supposed experts such as himself from contributing). As such, enabling talk page access would validate his approach. Regards, Nick-D (talk) 09:58, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It's time to let this vindictiveness go and move forward in a positive direction - if he screws up again - he'll be closed down again; let's have some light and lighten up here...Modernist (talk) 12:48, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This isn't just about socking, he's also participated in deliberate off-wiki outing and harassment of Wikipedians. There's no way that he should be allowed to resume any involvement in this project without at the very least an apology and a guarantee that he will never do it again, and even then, to be honest, I would be leery. Prioryman (talk) 12:59, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to add that Prioryman is correct here. Earlier this year he was banned from UK Wikimedia chapter-run events (excluding London meetings) because of this. Dougweller (talk) 14:43, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please be a little careful; I believe Peter disputes those assertions heavily, and that the emails in question were removed from the mailing list archives because they were, basically, slanderous. I have no idea of the merits of his case, or his ban, but throwing out such comments - which people far more "in the know" than you or I judged a legal risk - seems, at the least, a case of poking the bear. --Errant (chat!) 14:52, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I also believe that he has been told that he is welcome to attend WMUK events. John lilburne (talk) 14:57, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, I may not have kept up to date, I'm just reporting what I have in my emails. If he's actually been told he is welcome to attend WMUK events, I apologise. I'm not trying to stir and I know that he has had friendly contact with the chapter more recently. Dougweller (talk) 16:16, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The thing with chapters is that they do not consider blocking or banning from any WMF project as a reason not to deal with somebody who might have money to donate. I can't believe things have devolved here to the point where we are once again considering letting an active sockpuppeteer, in this case one whose stated purpose is to try and embarass this project, get unbanned by violating the terms of their own ban. We are giving him exacrty what he wants by even having this discussion. Until he is ready to stop socking and to use the proper channels to request a lifting of sanctions I don't believe we should even be talking about this. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:39, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * We should focus on the editing of Wikipedia. It is precisely because other irrelevant things are taken into account that Wikipedia can be gamed so easily. Assuming that Peter cannot be let back in because of the problems mentioned above, if he can work on some article via his talk page in a constructive way, we should let that happen. The lifting on sanctions requiring a change of attitude from him should be considered a separate matter. Count Iblis (talk) 18:07, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Beeblebrox; I know nothing about the circumstances (and no one has posted any detail, apart from a very hand wavy overview) so I can't comment on whether he should be unblocked. However I was aware of the situation with WMUK and was commenting on the allegations made here, which the charity has (as far as I can make out) rescinded. --Errant (chat!) 19:11, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The allegations above by Prioryman and Dougweller are not true and they should stop repeating them. Cla68 (talk) 22:47, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Um, I actually have a copy of the original email announcing his ban. Are you saying that I am lying about the contents? Dougweller (talk) 08:57, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the issue here is that Wikimedia UK later retracted the allegations they made in that e-mail (actually going to the trouble of removing the mail from the list archive), and that therefore it is not a good idea to rehash them. Jon Davies and PD worked hard to put this behind them, and it's therefore disappointing to see it raked up again.  J N  466  13:03, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Doug; I'm happy that you were aware of the email that was sent, but unaware of the subsequent follow up (which you can read about at WO if you like). Having now been appraised of that, however, it would behove you to stop pursuing it, I think, as you are skating very thin ice. --Errant (chat!) 14:17, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Alternative Suggestion
Why not try an idea of Durova, which was done successfully for ScienceApologist? (In 2009, with the article Optics.) Peter Damian would write a better article on Duns Scotus in his user space on Wikisource, using the current article as a starting point. Then, if the resulting article was indeed greatly superior to the current one, the new article would be moved to the current one. I seem to remember that there were issues with which made the move non-trivial, but they were solved. I don't know what the issues were, but likely Durova would since, as I remember, she worked for a while on solving them. Cardamon (talk) 23:19, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * ScienceApologist and Peter Damien are both talented editors. The question is not so much whether either is capable of contributing useful content as whether that content outweighs the disruption and whether it is feasible to steer the editor toward behaviors that put less strain on community volunteer resources.  ScienceApologist worked in controversial subjects and was baitable.  He basically needed a more positive/uncontroversial path to reduce interpersonal conflict. It took considerable energies to mentor with a few lessons learned along the way that I would gladly share with any editor who undertakes mentorship in a similar situation.  Yet are these two situations are similar enough to apply the same solution?  ScienceApologist accepted community norms in principle; his problem was overstepping the line when other people's poor conduct tried his patience.  Mentorship has its place, but I stopped mentoring in part because its use broadened until it burned out mentors with no appreciable good for the project or anyone in it.  An editor who has no intention of abiding by site policies will almost always accept mentorship as a way out of sitebanning, and then attempts to maneuver the mentors into becoming a buffer between unacceptable conduct and its normal consequences.  The purpose of this type of undertaking should always be to help an editor adapt to Wikipedia, not vice versa. <font face="Verdana"> Durova  412 01:01, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well said. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:23, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The ultimate purpose of any activity to do with Wikipedia should be to improve what people learn when looking for information on the internet. If working with some individuals in special ways achieves this without too much of an overhead, then the undertaking is worthwhile.--Peter cohen (talk) 19:41, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * "Without too much of an overhead" being the core problem here. Note that even the intial proposal does not support an actual unban, just a limited one under close supervision. Peter isn't stupid or incompetent, he doesn't just need a little guidance, he knows exactly what he is doing. If he can't be trusted to control himself if he were completley unbanned then we are better off without his contributions, no matter their quality. There are plenty of other users who manage to make high quality contributions without being a constant source of drama, without feeling the need to resort to sockpuppetry, and without deliberately trying to embarrass this project. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:06, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Dougweller outing vio
Dougweller just outed Peter Damian's real name on wiki. Admins, please correct his behavior. Thank you. Cla68 (talk) 12:35, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't realise it wasn't known here. I've rec/del'd it. What happened was that Cla68 accused me of making up allegations and I posted the email (which is from a public mailing list) on his talk page. It mentioned his real name. Many apologies if it isn't known on Wikipedia. Dougweller (talk) 12:46, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Cla68 - I like how you discussed it with the editor in question first, before mentioning at ANI. GiantSnowman 12:52, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It's now been suppressed. For future reference, please ensure that all outing violations are suppressed before parading them around AN? Pointing it out here is only going to increase the harm caused by the outing. <span style='text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD;'><font color='#000'>Worm TT(<font color='#060'>talk ) 13:43, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep. Note that GiantSnowman was being (I think) sarcastic. I certainly felt Cla68 should have mentioned it to me before bringing it here. I hadn't realised that Cla68 seems to see himself as a representative of Wikipediocracy here. Dougweller (talk) 14:07, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If you are going to use allegatiosn of off-Wiki outing to justify your position, then you should take an appropriate amount of care not to out people on-wiki yourself.--Peter cohen (talk) 14:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

A whole school of fish Trouts to DW for the outing, Cla68 for the drama instead of OTRS and minnows to Snowman and DW for the sarcasm. Nobody Ent 14:16, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought he had outed himself at some time in the past. I was correct.. He didn't name himself but gave links that showed his name. Those links are now dead but I followed them when they were posted. Dougweller (talk) 16:09, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

It is clear that there was no intentional policy violation or intent to harass or cause harm. The edit in question has been deleted and everyone is reminded of the relevant policies. I think this subthread can be considered resolved. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:36, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I think this whole discussion can be closed. There is obviously not a consensus to unban him, this has been open longer than most ban-related discussions. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:59, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Main page images
A few minutes ago I was contacted on IRC because all of the images on the Main Page were unprotected as they came from Commons. I've uploaded local copies and protected them all, but I'm wondering how this happened... --Rschen7754 09:28, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess because on Commons, the Picture of the day is protected a couple of days before and after being featured on the main page. This picture of the day is used in about a hundred projects. However, English Wikipedia does not use this image selected on Commons (I believe this is the only project who rejected the selection). Then it is not really surprising that the images which appear on the main page are not protected on Commons. They have no reason to protect them.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:50, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * But why were there not protected local copies of them already, given the need here? Who normally does this? -— Isarra ༆ 17:05, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've talked with some people, and tried it manually, and if you are not an admin, the software blocks you out from uploading over a protected image at Commons. (This is not how it was a few years ago). --Rschen7754 18:26, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * There's a bot problem I think. I'll investigate. Secretlondon (talk) 19:29, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know/Archive_83 Secretlondon (talk) 19:31, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If you are not an administrator, you cannot upload a file to [[File:Example123456.jpg]] if commons:File:Example123456.jpg also exists. This is how it has been for as long as I can remember. It is done like this for security purposes I believe, so that Commons images being used in articles aren't accidentally swapped out when a local image isn't uploaded. <b style="color:navy;">NW</b> ( Talk ) 22:35, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Input requested
I have started an Rfc on verbiage on the TITLE policy page; currently sentiment is against my proposal, but the two opposes both suggest that article renaming be handled exactly like Afd; this would require changing the ability to move or rename to be admin only. As their counter-proposal would affect all administrators, and runs directly counter to past and current practice on Wikipedia, I am listing the Rfc here to gain a wider audience, specifically of Admins who would have their roles changed by this. The Rfc is here. KillerChihuahua ?!? 16:58, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Oops, just noticed this. See the section above for an example of the bureaucratic time-wasting rigid misinterpretation of AT policy can cause. . . dave souza, talk 21:45, 16 August 2012 (UTC)