Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive253

Request to amend sanctions on Syrian civil war articles
The motion on Syrian civil war articles (see ) concludes that a number of Syrian conflict-related articles, which had been 1RR sanctioned under ARBPIA from March until July 2013 (including 3 blockings and 1 warning), in general do not fit the general category of Arab-Israeli disputes. However, since there is a general agreement that 1RR sanctions are required on relevant Syrian civil war articles due to edit-warring and sock-puppeting, those articles shall continue to fall under ARBPIA restriction for 30 days and in the meanwhile a discussion would be opened at WP:AN (this discussion) in order to determine whether there is consensus to continue the restrictions in effect as community-based restrictions, either as they currently exist or in a modified form; also any notifications and sanctions are meanwhile to be logged at Talk:Syrian civil war/Log. I herewith propose the community to apply on alternative sanction tool (perhaps "Syrian civil war 1RR tool") on relevant Syrian civil war articles, in order to properly resolve the existing edit-warring problem, prevent confusion of editors and administrators regarding if and when the sanctions are relevant, and in a way to reduce automatic association of Syrian conflict with the generally unrelated Israeli-Palestinian conflict.Greyshark09 (talk) 20:27, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Case summary
This request comes as a result of motion (see ), passed regarding Syrian civil war articles on 21 July, following an Arbcom request for amendment and clarification (see ). The issue was also previously discussed at Talk:Syrian civil war and recommended for Arbcom solution by an involved administrator (see [here]).

As an initiator of the original request for amendment and clarification, i would like to bring to community's attention the dilemma of problematic application of ARBPIA restriction on Syrian civil war articles, though acknowledging that 1RR restriction for some (or possibly all) Syrian civil war related articles is most probably required. As concluded by the Arbcom motion on July 21, there is no general relation of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the expanded conflict between Israel and Arab League (ARBPIA sanctions) to the ongoing Syrian conflict, except perhaps some separate incidents. In addition: It is hence required that ARBPIA sanctions would be replaced by other relevant sanctions tool on Syrian conflict.Greyshark09 (talk) 20:27, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * the several limited incidents (without fatalities) on Israeli-Syrian border during Quneitra Governorate fighting between rebels and government are a WP:UNDUE reason to extend 1RR over entire Syrian civil war topic area; moreover Syrian Ba'athist government is no longer a part of the Arab League, while its seat is supposed to be given to Syrian opposition, which is so far neutral to Israel.
 * the use 1RR tool at Syrian civil war articles prior to the above described motion had not even distantly related in any way to the Israel-Palestine topic (see sanctioned cases, ). Some editors also pointed out that application of ARBPIA tool, while referring only to certain aspects of Syrian conflict, creates a great deal of confusion for both editors and administrators when and where 1RR application is relevant.
 * the incidents of air or missile attacks, allegedly performed by Israel against Iranian, Hezbollah and Syrian Ba'athist targets in Syria, may fall under the Iran-Israel proxy conflict and most probably not the generally preceding and different conflict between Israel and the Arab League.

Discussion

 * Please put further comments and opinions here.


 * Proposed.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:29, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The Syrian civil war is far from an Arab-Israeli conflict. Not even close. Currently, only the Syria article, the Syrian civil war article and its military infobox template are under ARBPIA restrictions. Most of the edit-warring in the Syria conflict topic has been fought over the military infobox and also the what the legitimate flag of Syria should be. Other articles related to the Syrian civil war are not under any sanctions, and it should stay that way. These other articles do not frequently experience edit wars. I support replacing ARBPIA with something more relevant, but oppose placing any more articles than the 3 I mentioned under 1RR restrictions.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:59, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Given the on-wiki conflict over the real-life conflict, I see no reason to get rid of the sanctions. Yes, it shouldn't be under ARBPIA restrictions, but maintaining the 1RR etc probation is helpful.  Let's change nothing except for the reason behind the restrictions.  Nyttend (talk) 01:08, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Nyttend: this is an area of considerable controversy among Wikipedia editors, and the 1RR restrictions are necessary in this subject area in their own right. As such, they should be maintained. Nick-D (talk) 06:44, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As an editor that works in military history space in an (at the very least) equally contentious area (the Balkans in WWII), I thoroughly agree with Nyttend on this. Where 1RR has been applied under ARBMAC (for example), it has tended to reduce the amount of edit-warring and other nonsense. It encourages real contributors onto the talk page where these matters should be discussed, and deters trolls and other ne'er-do-well's. My point is that ARBMAC was originally only for Macedonia, but has now been applied to all Balkans-related articles, broadly defined. That, in my opinion, is a good thing, as it focuses editors on contributing, instead of edit-warring over minutiae. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:53, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Not only do I completely agree with Nyttend, but I actually think the Syrian civil war should be placed under discretionary sanctions on its own merits. Do you know what will happen if there's nothing in place to prevent POV-pushing? There will be two distinctive groups trying to reshape the main article and all other related pages based on their perception of the confict:
 * 1) Pro-Assad editors of every sort, whether they be patriotic Shiite Muslims or far-left conspiracy theorists. They will try to paint the dictator in an unduly positive light by mitigating the negative coverage of his regime, all the while emphasizing any and all incidents attributed to either the Free Syrian Army or the al-Nusra Front to make it seem as if the entire rebellion is an Islamist insurgency backed by Western governments.
 * 2) Anti-Assad editors who reject the very notion that significant atrocities have also been committed by the rebels (particularly the al-Nusra Front), and will work to sweep any mention of terrorism against the regime under the rug.
 * There is general consensus among independent observers that both sides have committed war crimes, but that the Assad regime's offences far eclipse those of the rebels. Nevertheless, we must avoid giving undue weight to either side. It needs to be made clear that Assad loyalists are behind most of the abuses, but their opponents have also staged attacks against security and civilian targets. The last time I visited the article, this was already achieved. Allowing either of the aforementioned groups free reign over pages related to the civil war will jeopardize our efforts to cover the topic in an impartial manner. Kurtis (talk) 16:18, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Fist, I'm opposed to shoehorning conduct into a policy that doesn't fit. Outside the Isreal related articles, its clearly outside ARBPIA, and the sanctions do not apply. As a practical matter, by the time we reach consensus on that, we could have already reached consensus on sanctions generally. The ARBPIA sanction regime is particularly aggressive, in that, in addition to the imposition of discretionary sanctions, it applies a blanket 1rr rule to the entire topic area, . I think standard community imposed discretionary sanctions would be more appropriate, which could of course involve revert restrictions on certain articles if required. Monty  845  20:57, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I support ongoing 1RR and discretionary sanctions as a community sanction in Syria-related articles, for the forseeable future. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:54, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Closing
I would like to ask a closure for this amendment request, since involved parties have already expressed opinions and the 30 day-period of temporal sanctions (resulted by motion on July 21 ) is about to finish.Greyshark09 (talk) 20:47, 13 August 2013 (UTC) Temporary sanctions are due to be in tact until 20 August, an administrator is requested to close this case.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:54, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Future timestamp: Armbrust The Homunculus 16:54, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

In the meanwhile the article 2013 Ghouta attacks was completely blocked for non-admin editors due to edit-warring. I would like to repeat my request to finalize this amendment request and determine a constructive policy for Syrian civil war topic articles.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:56, 31 August 2

Restriction appeal
A bit more than a year ago I agreed to two editing [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:John_Foxe&diff=next&oldid=506318302 restrictions] in order to be unblocked, with the possibility of those restrictions being lifted after a year. I would now appreciate that being done.--John Foxe (talk) 23:47, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Support NE Ent 01:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Support with understanding that further problems in the Mormon area could lead to a topic or site ban. I'm all for giving him a second chance, especially since I haven't seen a problem involving him during the past year.   GregJackP   Boomer!   01:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Support given his complete lack of presence on ANI or AN. Blackmane (talk) 12:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment For those of us not familiar with the past issues, perhaps someone would like to briefly recap why Foxe was put under restrictions? IRWolfie- (talk) 15:12, 23 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The 1RR restriction was made "everywhere on Wikipedia, on all material Mormon or not". However, he has been recently engaged in edit warring, for example here:, , and so on. In two last diffs he claims "consensus" (edit summary) as a reason for his reverts. However, there was no consensus about this, according to closing of the RfC by an uninvolved administrator: . Here he coordinates his reverts in this article with another user . He has been also engaged in sockpuppetry . Recent personal attack  (claim that I somehow "enjoy" an infamous dictator, although I did not edit anything about him for years). Not a good sign.My very best wishes (talk) 16:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The socking was in 2011 (2 yrs ago). -- Diannaa (talk) 19:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, indeed; this is only related to the reasons for receiving his initial restriction (question by IRWolfie). In addition, he received later two blocks for violating his restriction in 2012, did not he? My very best wishes (talk) 20:12, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I guess I misunderstood. Since the mention of socking was intermixed with your reasons why you think the restrictions should not be lifted, I assumed you felt this is still relevant today. I don't think it is, as there's been no evidence of further socking. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - It's been a year without obvious problems. --I am One of Many (talk) 06:08, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to be fair, I did not see him violating 1RR restriction during last year. Accordingly, I would expect him to make only three reverts per article per day in Mormonism-related articles if the restriction is lifted. That however will bring him a trouble. Therefore, I do not change my vote.My very best wishes (talk) 15:03, 24 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Note that this discussion had gotten itself archived at Administrators' noticeboard/Archive252 and User:NE Ent brought it back and closed it. Looks good to me. EdJohnston (talk) 01:17, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Um, no. NE Ent was the first to support the appeal, he shouldn't have been the one to close it. Bringing it back and asking for a close was the way to go here. Four supports and one oppose may be a consensus, but it's hardly WP:SNOW territory. It would be best if User:NE Ent reopened the discussion and let someone uninvolved close it. Fram (talk) 07:54, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I would like to ask: did anyone who voted "support", and especially NE Ent, ever interacted with John_Foxe and knows about his editing and way of inteacrting with others? On the other hand, this is probably something on discretion of administrator who imposed sanctions (EdJohnston). My very best wishes (talk) 01:26, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm the admin who issued the block in August 2012 where [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:John_Foxe&diff=next&oldid=506318302 John Foxe accepted the 1RR restriction and the ban from Mormon articles] as unblock conditions. Assuming I became the closer of John Foxe's appeal discussion, I do perceive a consensus to lift the restrictions. It should go without saying that any resumption of the previous problems would lead to more admin action. EdJohnston (talk) 04:34, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Right. If so, you or any other admin can close it now. My very best wishes (talk) 18:06, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Bradley Manning closure.
For the information of the administrators, pursuant to the unanimous determination of the three-administrator panel convened to close the Chelsea Manning/Bradley Manning move request, the initial move of the article to "Chelsea Manning" has been reverted, returning the article to the original title, "Bradley Manning". This move is without prejudice to a new proposal to move the page to "Chelsea Manning" being initiated no less than thirty days from the date of this determination, and without prejudice to immediate proposals to move the page to a compromise title such as "Private Manning" or "Bradley (Chelsea) Manning". This closure is likely to lead to further controversy, and the situation should be carefully monitored. bd2412 T 04:03, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Edits to remove "Chelsea" have already begun, as has an edit war over including the name "Chelsea" in the lede sentence. This was the utterly predictable result of a close that amounted to !vote counting and which failed (IMO) to actually deal with the policy questions that were involved in the discussion.  BD2412 is correct that more controversy is ahead.  EdChem (talk) 04:37, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * While the outcome is not what I would have preferred, ultimately whatever happened a lot of people were not going to be happy and it was going to continue to lead to disputes so thanks to the 3 admins involved for their time and willingness to deal with such a contentious and long discussion. Nil Einne (talk) 04:52, 31 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd say that this is something that PC2 was made for, except for the fact that administrators have been warring in there as well, at times. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 08:18, 31 August 2013 (UTC)


 * BD2412, I'm curious about your order, in the finding, that a new proposal to move the page to "Chelsea Manning" may not be initiated less than thirty days from the date of this determination. Is it usual for closers of move discussions to make such orders? Sorry, I've only followed a couple of these (Hillary Rodham Clinton and Santorum (neologism) and I don't recall such an order being attached to those - though I may have forgotten. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 12:25, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It has been done before and is generally accepted amongst the community as a drama-preventative measure. But it's not based in policy or authority.--v/r - TP 13:02, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It's the advice of three admins, and fair warning they (and others) might well look at something earlier as disruptive. Although part of the closing rationale is incomprehensible (namely "Competing examples were provided of some reliable sources changing their usage, while some retained their previous usage. The change that did occur was not sufficient to persuade the majority of editors, including some who indicated that their minds could be changed by sufficient evidence of changed usage." How did they reach that conclusion since the Associated Press and New York Times did not announce until the 27th?)  But regardless, it was reasoned if not flawless work.  If anyone wants them to clarify, under ADMINACT, those admins will, no doubt. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:05, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I have just answered this on my talk page, where I have suggested that the specific moratorium imposed is common sense, and done for good reasons. Revisiting this issue after a relatively short period was contemplated by a number of editors who supported reverting the title. In this case, a thirty day moratorium is as much for the benefit of those who would like to see the page moved back to "Chelsea Manning" as it is for anyone else. Undoubtedly, many would like to immediately turn around and propose the move again, but such an attempt may prove to be disastrous for the proposer, as emotions from the previous discussion are still running raw. In thirty days, there is more likely to be substantial evidence with which the proposers can build a WP:COMMONNAME case sufficient to achieve a clear consensus in favor of the proposed move. There is also an opportunity in that time to seek adjustments to the relevant policies in order to clarify the appropriateness of a title change under these circumstances. Note also that if the panel had not included that thirty day provision, it is entirely possible that a move request made after that period of time would have been dismissed by detractors as being too soon. With the thirty day provision, it is clear that a new proposal brought at that point is permissible. bd2412  T 01:27, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Who were the three closing admins? NE Ent 12:32, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * User:BOZ and User:Kww.--v/r - TP 13:02, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Admin Edit request Per the "admin accountability" thing the names of the panel should be on Talk:Bradley Manning/August 2013 move request. NE Ent 13:38, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I have asked the other involved admins to sign the decision. User:Kww has done so, on the subpage. I'm sure User:BOZ will, when he next logs on. bd2412  T 14:42, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Obviously I agree with the outcome, the consensus of the RM participants was measured correctly, and emotive arguments were rightly rejected. One thing that may be a concern going forward though are the attempts to undercut and subvert that decision as much as possible.  The article is now titled "Bradley Manning", but we can't have the lead reflect that, can't have the infobox reflect that (currently it sits at a compromise of "Chelsea (Bradley) Manning", though even   that is under fire by Josh Gorand at the moment.  Ther eis also the issue of my move request at Chelsea Manning gender identity media coverage.  I really don't see the sense in having disparate article titles, but so far the RM is seeing several appeal to emotion types of arguments, the type that were explicitly rejected by point 6 of the big RM close. Tarc (talk) 13:16, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Josh isn't a concern, really. If he was really the policy enforcer that he claims, he'd have attempted to move it back to Chelsea citing WP:BLP at this point and would've earned himself a block.  So we can just ignore him.  The rest of the article can reflect Chelsea.  The discussion was about the article's title.--v/r - TP 14:25, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Article feedback settings on protection form
Are there any announcements or documentation related to the sudden appearance of article feedback settings on the protection form? It appears to add an extra log action (something like "Changed visibility of the article feedback tool on "Some article" ([Visibility=Disable for all users] (indefinite))" or "Changed visibility of the article feedback tool on "Some article" ‎[articlefeedbackv5=aft-noone] (indefinite)") when protecting a page. From what I can tell, it looks like "disabled" is already the status quo, so it seems a little confusing to have a log entry for that when nothing has actually been changed. (I've never had much use for article feedback, so it's possible that my understanding of the situation is incorrect.) --Bongwarrior (talk) 19:07, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * See Wikipedia talk:Article Feedback Tool/Version 5. The problem is (a) there is an unnecessary log event each time an admin protects an article, (b) there is an unwanted random change of the visibility of AFT. If the visibility of AFT is already on, the admin might unknowingly turn it off. EdJohnston (talk) 20:50, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There's an "enable feedback" link in the toolbox links and on the article feedback subpage. This appears to be removed on most occasions when a page has been protected (or unprotected), usually (but not always) with an additional log entry. Peter&#160;James (talk) 22:55, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Advertising userboxes on categories which the userbox adds the user to.
This message is to inform the readers of this noticeboard that there is an on-going RfC on WP:VPP that I think you all may be interested in. Technical 13 (talk) 19:27, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Potential meatpuppeting campaign
According to CampusReform, FemTechNet is coordinating an online course with 15 participating universities, part of which is called "Storming Wikipedia" and involves writing "feminist perspective" into Wikipedia articles. I'm not sure how accurate it is, nor do I have a course syllabus that can prove what the blog post says, but it may be wise to keep an eye on gender-related articles to watch out for meat puppets. The Wordsmith Talk to me 09:15, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If you'd hop on over to WT:WikiProject Feminism, you'd see that several veteran editors in the wikiproject are helping coordinate this project. By most accounts, it seems to be a good-faith effort at getting broader coverage of feminism-related events, and to bring well-sourced feminist scholarship to Wikipedia. VanIsaacWS Vexcontribs 09:32, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If that's all it is then I have no problems with it. We just need to be careful to maintain NPOV and wary of off-wiki collaboration. From the linked article it smelled a lot like a meat puppet campaign; I'm relieved that it is not and that experienced editors are supervising. The Wordsmith Talk to me 09:39, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Asaram Bapu
I have previously brought my administrative actions on this article for review in this forum. My reaction is that there was no consensus that my actions were incorrect. Since that time, I've been trying very hard to move the involved editors to discuss the policy issues. At the same time I've been removing BLP violations from the talk page itself. Those removals have met the most resistance because many editors - wrongly in my view - believe that the issues can't be discussed without repeating the BLP-violating allegations. I have tried to keep my actions as consistent as possible, including most recently removing User:Jimbo Wales's addition to the talk page.

If there is a clear consensus, particularly from other administrators, that some or all of my administrative actions have been unjustifiable, I will abide by that consensus. If anyone thinks I'm enjoying this, they're dead wrong. It's a royal pain in the ass. However, unless and until that happens, I will continue to act administratively as I see fit.

I'm bringing it up again mainly because of the spill-over into so many other places on Wikipedia.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:27, 31 August 2013 (UTC)


 * This is ridiculous. The allegations are all over every Indian newspaper and (300) police are actively looking to question the person being charged. For a parallel case I suggest you look at the history of the Rolf Harris article, where mentions of the allegations were there long before he was formally charged. It is completely not a WP:BLP violation and that you stealthy removed my edits without even informing me is rather annoying. There is absolutely nothing in the BLP policy against mentioning these accusations and proposing text around them.
 * What's even worse is that you haven't tried to justify anywhere why it's a BLP violation, but are rather repeating a mantra that it is. A quick google search should show any reasonable person that covering this is not a BLP violation: . This is an incident, it should be at ANI. Jimbo Wales addition to the talk page was to list some reliable sources: yet this was also removed as a BLP violation by Bbb23. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:32, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Rather than move the discussion to ANI, I've left a small comment there to attract people over so this can be resolved quickly (considering the time sensitive nature of the coverage). IRWolfie- (talk) 18:45, 31 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd also like to note as far as I can tell, Bbb23 has been making changes to the article over about 7 days, and then looked the article in place and reverted to his preferred version. I think its preferable if an admin who locks an article is not one who has been editing said article ... IRWolfie- (talk) 19:03, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with IRWolfie on this one (but obviously I would). I have attempted to further the conversation there by posting exact quotes without editorialization from a variety of reliable sources, along with information to explain the nature of the sources - these are simple factual quotes from  the largest non-tabloid newspapers and television networks in India about allegations that are clearly of encyclopedic interest.  There is zero policy rationale for censoring discussion of what the article should say about these allegations, and furthermore Bbb23 has not even remotely attempted to justify his actions.  I hope others will revert because I'd rather not do it myself.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:42, 31 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I have never seen such a bunch of ill-founded accusations by experienced editors since I've become an admin. Twice I've taken this issue here for review. And twice there's been no consensus that my administrative actions have been inappropriate. As for the allegation that I haven't justified my actions, that's pathetic. I've done so over and over again. Editors may not agree, but I certainly haven't just stated conclusions without support for them. To accuse me of stealth is absurd. I have many faults, but sneakiness is not one of them. I've been as up front as I know how to be and as consistent as I know how to be. And now I have Jimbo telling me I know nothing about BLP and User:Crisco 1492 accusing me of edit warring. Ridiculous and offensive. If that's the way it's going to be - with virtually no attention to proper procedure - then I'm not going to continue trying to protect the article or the talk page, even if some think that's what should be done. As I said before, I'm not enjoying this one little bit. So, I intend to unlock the article and cease any involvement in the article or talk page. Knock yourselves out.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:50, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * What do you call your (at least) five reverts then, if not edit warring, particularly if consensus (a policy) is against you? That discussion is going to ANI. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:56, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I, too, would like an explanation for exactly how you thought that removing my exact quotes from reliable sources was in any way consistent with policy. It is incumbent on you as an administrator that you be able to justify and explain your actions with reference to policy.  This will be difficult, since this was merely aggressive and completely and totally unsupported by policy in every respect.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:04, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It is the policy which is creating confusion, not Bbb23: In addition to what I have told in Jimbo Wales' talk page, WP:BLPCRIME has a set of instructions on BLP crime, and right after that at Biographies_of_living_persons it is told, that BLP are applicable in talk page too. It is misleading. Since it means, one needs to follow the same guidelines in the talk page too which were instructed for article space. It should be clearly written that: editors may post reliable sources in talk page to discuss on the issue. But, the aim of posting such references should be attempt to improve the article and not to make fun of the subject or to defame him. Any irrelevant and unnecessary comment or references will be removed (so and so). -- Tito ☸ Dutta 00:10, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no confusion in policy. WP:BLPCRIME does not say, or even suggest, that discussion of exact quotes from reliable sources can be removed from talk pages.  Bbb23 has indicated that he lost his cool and asks to be left alone for a while to calm down.  That's what I recommend.  If he doesn't apologize and indicate an understanding of policy at the end of a cool down period, I'm going to recommend that he either resign the admin bit or have it removed.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:32, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I will respect your judgment to allow a "cool down" period; however, I independently already started a subthread below, "" after investigating the actions of Bbb23 wp:INVOLVED with deleting 3 sections (w/o prior consensus) and later full-protecting the article, then double-deleting talk-page sources, as evidenced in subthread. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:55, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I do agree that there is no such indication or suggestion, and I am one of the editors who were debating with Bbb23 over this. But, please note, when we were saying the same thing last week (BBb23 came here to have his admin acts reviewed by others), we did not get a single support, actually editors endorsed Bbb23's acts. This is surprising. -- Tito ☸ Dutta 00:45, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The sources that are here now where not the sources there last week. An admin should recognise when something has moved on. That no consensus you cite is just exactly the same people as are commenting here now. I'm not sure what you think that is meant to show, IRWolfie- (talk) 09:15, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, disagreeing with Jimbo isn't cause for desysopping. Threatening to have an admin's bit removed because he removed some of your comments from a talk page comes off poorly, to be honest. I'm not defending Bbb23's actions in this case, but it's clearly a good-faith dispute in which he's trying to err on the side of BLP compliance--that's not at all cause for de-adminning. Every admin makes mistakes, so calling for desysopping over one dispute is inappropriate. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:49, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Do you really believe that removing the sysop bit from Bbb23 will change anything? This is one of the attitudes that make people believe that being a sysop is some kind of trophy or high position rather than a responsibility. — ΛΧΣ  21  01:00, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * While there does seem to be consensus now that posting those quotes is fine, it seems that Bbb23was trying to uphold BLP policy. That is one of our most serious policies, and it is a major exception to the 3RR; possible error in upholding BLP in one case should not be grounds for desysopping, particularly since Bbb has now disengaged from the article. We do not want to institute a chilling effect on admins enforcing BLP. Lady  of  Shalott  01:19, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I doubt anything can have chilling effect on majority of admins. §§ Dharmadhyaksha §§ {T/C} 14:38, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I think it's perfectly possible to read our BLP policy in a way that makes the removal of Jimbo's comments from the talk page acceptable, even proper. If anyone thinks that Bbb was too heavy-handed, you may say so, but calling for an apology and his head on a platter is too much. Protecting BLPs and upholding the spirit and the letter of the relevant policy is one of the most important duties an admin can take up, and many of us are not prepared to go as far as necessary, or as far as they think is right. In the meantime, he has pulled away from the article, so a block would be just punitive. And we don't, of course, do punitive blocks. Drmies (talk) 01:46, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree with Drmies. Andreas JN 466 06:48, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Drmies, I'm not looking for an apology. I'm looking for a recognition that what he did was incorrect and is not in BLP, so that this silent deleting of BLP conforming talk page comments doesn't repeat itself. As an aside, what BLPCRIME says is that 1. Innocent until proven guilty 2. If the person is unknown consider not mentioning it. Nowhere does it justify removing links to high quality sources about a famous person who is the subject of lots of media attention, nor neutrally written text on the talk page which are based on said reliable sources. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:22, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You may not be looking for an apology, but Jimbo is, and presumably that's what Drmies was referring to: "If he doesn't apologize and indicate an understanding of policy at the end of a cool down period, I'm going to recommend that he either resign the admin bit or have it removed". Calling for an apology for a good faith disagreement between admins about how to read an (on this point) not very clear policy is pathetic. Please cool down, Jimbo. Well, calling for "apologies-or-else" is pathetic at all times IMO (see WP:CGTW point 16), but particularly in such a case. Bishonen &#124; talk 10:14, 1 September 2013 (UTC).
 * Agreed. Disagreeing with Jimbo is not grounds for sanctions, not is Exploding Wales a recognized method of desysopping. I don't personally think the material removed violates BLP, but I can see how BLP could be interpreted that way. If we err, it should be on the side of caution. The Wordsmith Talk to me 10:28, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Let's put the apologies stuff to one side and focus on the specific issue, which is to stop this repeating itself at some future juncture with a different article due to this misinterpretation of BLP. To move forward, that requires a recognition that this was in fact an overzealous action, and that it shouldn't be repeated. Also, good faith contributions from editors should never be silently deleted, no matter the circumstances. If there is an inadvertent BLP violation it should be deleted and then the person should be informed with precise reasons for why (and by this I mean beyond per WP:BLP or something). IRWolfie- (talk) 13:25, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I have followed the article since August 23, and it did contain a lot of egregious nonsense with pile-on BLP-violating links to accusations posted on the article and its talk page. The subject of the article is now facing legal processes so it is possible to work on BLP-compliant additions to the article. It is most unfortunate that those arriving late have not understood its background. The best way to guarantee future BLP violations in a wide range of articles is to abuse an admin who has been doing the thankless work of cleaning out the stable. Bbb23 deserves thanks, not this pointless drama. Johnuniq (talk) 03:47, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it did contain egregious stuff back in the 23rd when bbb23 first started editing the article, but that doesn't excuse deleting BLP conforming material a week later from the talk pages. If the cleanup strays into silently removing good faith edits which are not BLP issues then there is a serious problem. He stopped the coverage of a major controversy in an article during a period where approximately 80k people where looking for factual concise information on the topic and disrupted any attempt at talking about the issue. He edited the article multiple times, and then locked in his favourite version so that the very widely covered allegations etc had no coverage at all. Then Bbb23 censored every attempt to discuss the issue and refused and continues to refuse to justify his actions. This overzealousness should never be commended. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:10, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Wolfie, surely you know that a BLP violation is a BLP violation no matter where it is placed--article space, talk page, it doesn't matter. If an admin thinks something is a BLP violation they have the moral duty to remove it; User:Jimbo Wales could not disagree with this, I think. Now, it seems clear to me that you have a bone to pick with Bbb; I don't know why, I don't know what you two have been doing recently, but I do know that talk such as "'he' locked in his favourite version" is just tendentious language, pure rhetoric, and while I understand why you're doing it--you want Bbb censured--you know as well as I do, and I think everyone with a calm mind knows it too, that it's just hatespeak for "he protected a version he believed to be BLP-compliant". BTW, I don't see where Bbb refuses anything, though I do see that maybe you are the one who is here to right some wrong. User:Johnuniq, I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. I'm baffled that Jimbo Wales would take position here, and that he would take the position he did. Admins have a shitty job already; we don't often enough have the pleasure of simply blocking someone for the hell of it (this one's for you, User:Eric Corbett, because I love you and I'd make you admin in a heartbeat), and when we do act and take a position, a controversial one, you get shat on by the dramah regulars (and by the boss!) or are otherwise prevented from taking real action. Crisco, my friend, you know how that feels--see User_talk:Drmies. Now, I have a few words of my well-known fatherly advice to share with Bbb, in the privacy of his talk page, but fo shizzle, get off his back. Drmies (talk) 14:22, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, I have no bone to pick with Bbb23 and I think his actions are generally good as far as I am aware of them (I dislike this tactic that people that make a specific complaint about a specific incident are maligned as having some unspecified grudge, why does WP:AGF not extend to me, but do for the actions of an admin?). I can't think of any negative interaction we have had. " BTW, I don't see where Bbb refuses anything", Bbb23 was asked in several places to provide a policy based reason but did not do so (saying per WP:BLP is not a policy based reason) . Nowhere was it clarified why edits were viewed as BLP violations. The onus is on admins to explain and justify their actions when asked. This doesn't make Bbb23 a bad contributor, this is merely things from the incident for Bbb23 to bear in mind and to improve from as a result, IRWolfie- (talk) 15:53, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh lord, another Jimbo eruption. Either way, Jimbo's statement that he was going to "recommend" that Bbb23 be desysoped was ill-advised. I am aware that policies do not have teeth when applied to Jimbo, but what he wrote is really cringeworthy, a "Do you know who I am?" moment.  I am not quite sure what avenue or channel Jimbo contemplated using, but if it exists, I'm sure it is not there for the purpose of settling petty personal grievances.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:33, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * For the sake of rational discussion can we put aside demands that some have made for desysopping and focus on the issue, which can be resolved here. I would have suggested that the idea of desysopping is a straw man, but then from the subtopic "Involved admin should resign at Asaram", it seems there are people under all the straw. I think 99% of us can agree that we aren't talking about desysopping or anything of the sort, but some recognition that silently deleting good faith contributions in the face of massive coverage of an issue without discussion or subsequent justification is not desirable and that per WP:BLP isn't a get out of jail free card. i.e it should be explicitly shown why BLP is applicable when asked, IRWolfie- (talk) 09:26, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Admin here. After a brief look at the history of this issue, I think your actions may have been an error. However, I'm something of a BLP hardliner (I had a part in the summary deletions of unsourced BLPs a few years back) so I'm a strong believer in the idea that if we err, we should err on the side of protecting the BLP subjects. So I think you may have done the wrong thing for the right reasons. Also, re:above, I second the notion that disagreeing with the Godking is not grounds for desysopping. The Wordsmith Talk to me 09:36, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Bbb23 was quite wrong in gauging the whole situation. From the fact that numerous IPs, new users took efforts to come to talk pages and put edit requests to get the news bit inside the article, one should have reconsidered their stance and given a second thought about it all. Something that was found so important by so many new editors could very well be a big issue off-wiki. Majority, if not all, editors were requesting to write that the subject was accused of a crime and not that he was a criminal and these numbers spoke of how the situation fell under WP:WELLKNOWN. I understand that Bbb23's stance for being away from the radiations of Indian media was fair enough at the start but that should have changed. Now apologizing or desysoping is hardly a curative measure but learning to listen from fellow editors would be good enough for now. §§ Dharmadhyaksha §§ {T/C} 14:38, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You know, Wikipedia's rules and the administrators who enforce them should be so tight and organized by now that there shouldn't even be debate over what just happened here. The fact that they aren't shows that not only is Jimbo's legacy with WP is as an incompetent leader, but that WP's administration has never been able to get its act together to make its decisions and actions in cases like this so consistent that arguments are over before they even begin.  WP is broken, and there is no fixing it.  If WP's rules were enforced consistently, then Jimbo would have known what he can and can't do.  If WP's administration was consistent and competent in its actions, then the rules and consequences for breaking them would be clear.  You all lose. Cla68 (talk) 14:55, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, enforcing BLP is important. But it's a very big hammer, and it's incumbent upon the wielder of it to get it right. BLP does not override consensus, it just allows for preliminary enforcement while consensus is still being gauged. It doesn't allow continued enforcement if consensus does form and it's against that. Rather, BLP, like all our other policies, is determined and enforced by consensus. I don't care that it's Jimbo. When any long-term, good-faith editor disagrees with the summary actions you're taking under BLP, or especially when many do, it's time to step back and take a close look at whether you have consensus to do that. Bbb is finally doing that, but that should've been done without this blowup. I'm not saying that Bbb did it here, but BLP is far too often used as a "trump card" in legitimate content disputes where well-sourced material is available. We ought to sanction misuse of BLP as harshly as violations of it. Seraphimblade Talk to me 15:13, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thus, the period of admins not being willing to enforce BLP begins because they will be too afraid of whether or not them being wrong will make them lose their bit. One by one, we will lose admins who care about BLP, and be left with those who are too worried about their adminship. Makes total sense. Not. ~ Charmlet -talk- 15:17, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Charmlet, I'm afraid that makes no sense. Admins, like all of us, make errors sometimes. If we desysopped every admin who made an error, we'd have very few admins, if any at all. What we do desysop and otherwise sanction for is not editors/admins making decisions that turn out not to gain consensus. That happens. When sanctions are called for is when a lot of editors in good faith are disagreeing with you, and you keep plowing ahead anyway, attempting to steamroll them. That's not acceptable in any case, be it a question of NPOV, BLP, OR, civility, attacks, inappropriate use of reverts/protection/blocking.... It doesn't matter. When a lot of people start in good faith to disagree with you, it's time to stop, engage with them, and determine if your actions have consensus. If you don't do that, you're guilty of far more than an error&mdash;you're behaving dismissively and disrespectfully toward your colleagues. That is when sanctions are generally required. Seraphimblade Talk to me 18:16, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * A majority of people saying one thing does not make it right. That's an argumentum ad populum. Reaper Eternal (talk) 23:31, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * And hence, it's not always a flat majority. But with BLP issues, I've sometimes seen a small minority using it to overrule a large majority making policy-based arguments, when the underlying dispute is a regular old content dispute, and "BLP" gets played as a trump card. That's really not acceptable either, is it? Seraphimblade Talk to me 00:02, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Reviewing the article and talk history, there was a valid argument by several that the critcism section was over weighted. I don't know what led Bbb23 to start participating in the article, but early on he was removing unreferenced accusations made by a few registered and nonregistered editors...this is in keeping with BLP. Reliable sources were later added by editors including Jimbo which Bbb23 continued to remove. At some point, the BLP enforcement actions became too severe and not based in policy. I noticed in two cases where Jimbo added reliable sources to the talkpage, Bbb23 removed them within minutes, which indicates to me that Bbb23 didn't even bother to click the links to determine the veracity of the sources. Bbb23 may have simply gotten into a pattern of BLP enforcement where he continued to believe that the specific details of the accusations were BLP violations. A somewhat similar situation happened on an article on my watchlist...several editors were adding information to an article that wasn't referenced due to recentism and I removed it based on a lack of references. But within 24 hours I was able to independently confirm the information so I added it back myself and cited it. Jimbo isn't perfect, but I trust that if he's adding referenced material to a talkpage it deserves some scrutiny before it is immediately removed repeatedly.--MONGO 15:38, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've seen similar "BLP fundamentalist" interpretations of policy - for example, see Talk:Johnny Weir/Archive 2 and Talk:Johnny Weir/Archive 3. We need to rule out the abuse of BLP to remove well sourced information, per WP:WELLKNOWN - since it's already a policy, admins acting this way may need to be chafed, but we could also make it clearer.  We have a situation where sometimes the well-connected editors decide to rag on somebody (Qworty, an author still identified in the lede as mostly known for Wikipedia edits) and sometimes they shield them from all harm (even when it isn't harm).  That arbitrariness needs to be reduced, somehow. Wnt (talk) 16:15, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment from uninvolved non-admin: It's worth noting for the record that the aforementioned incident at Talk:Johnny Weir will not be completely visible on the archived pages because, as I recall, some of it was removed or even suppressed (improperly, imo) as part of the most egregious misapplication of WP:BLP I've ever seen. This case, and this admin, aren't comparable: here, Bbb23 was acting to protect a BLP subject from clear and demonstrable harm, made no chilling threats, and backed off (eventually) when challenged. It also might be noted that some of the publications used as sources in the Bapu article, while nominally reliable, do not have a stellar reputation for impartiality in their news reporting. While I have lately thought that Bbb23 may have been a trifle overzealous in enforcing WP:BLP elsewhere, I think the problem is with the policy and the community, not with this admin, and calls for blocking or desysopping are quite simply overreactions (and unseemly ones at that, especially on the part of Jimbo). In the short term, Bbb23—and others—should review WP:BLP vis-à-vis what it does and doesn't prohibit (and also WP:RS for what it says about certain blogs). Over the long haul, the community will have to deal with overhauling WP:BLP, a policy that often fails to protect innocent article subjects from damaging falsehoods while whitewashing the reputation of scoundrels more thoroughly than any PR agent could hope for. Rivertorch (talk) 18:37, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: I have subdivided this discussion into 2 subthreads, to separate the areas of focus: "" & "". -Wikid77 (talk) 23:33, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Recommendations on BLP policy from Asaram
Several users have commented above with suggestions to improve wp:BLP policies. Discuss below, for referal to wp:VPP policy pump or related. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:33, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Strengthen WP:WELLKNOWN. As currently written, the first "example" appears to invite questions of whether something is "important for the article", which is a very subjective decision for some people.  It uses the criterion of "public figure", which is also very hard to define.  I think that any fact reported in two independent newspapers (as a double check, perhaps specify from widely separated geographic locations) should pass WELLKNOWN and the policy should no longer be an issue for it. Wnt (talk) 01:14, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Let the subject have his say. This is a personal preference of mine that I think might actually be worth saying this in the policy.  If a subject has gone to the news media and given them a quote or statement presenting his side of the story, we should never use BLP as a justification to leave it out.  We're not here to put a muzzle on a subject "for his own good".  (I think this usually comes up in the case of racial extremists, but probably elsewhere as well)  We should also go out of our way to encourage responses to criminal charges and other allegations as a way of ensuring article balance.  I cringe when I read someone saying that "of course he's going to deny it" in regard to some charge.  It's not just pro forma - we should seriously consider the subject's statement as one of the valid perspectives the article should summarize. Wnt (talk) 01:14, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not like the idea of making WP:WELLKNOWN completely mechanical. One publication on the front page of NYT obviously means much much more than twenty publications in supermarket newspapers and zynes.
 * I like the idea of giving subjects of media controversy their say. Just I am not sure what to do if their defense consists of attacks on the other party. Suppose an alleged perpetrator of a rape claims that his victim was a prostitute giving a juicy examples of her alleged sexual behavior. Should we put those allegations verbatim? Tone them down but provide reference? Would it be fair to the victim of an alleged rape?
 * I think we need two more changes to BLP:
 * Blogs, opinion pages, personal sites - any self published sources that does not go through an independent fact-checking nor peer review should not be used as a source for negative information about living people. Period. No exemptions for "news columns presented as blogs". Blogs can be used only as sources of attributed opinions of notable bloggers.
 * Talk pages have much more relaxed BLP rules for discussion over article contents than the articles themselves. Any web-sources that are higher in search engine results than our talk pages should be allowed during discussions. Otherwise we are bound to go in circles: editor A in good faith believes that info about a BLP is well enough sourced and discusses it on talk page, editor B believes that the sources are not reliable enough and instead of discussion removes A's entry from the talk page. Editor A believes that his sources are well enough consider actions of B as vanadalism and restores them, editor B protects BLP and removes them again, etc... The only way to prevent this is to allow borderline cases to be kept on the talk pages during discussion of their reliability. Talk pages are way more obscure than the articles, all entries in them are attributed opinions of particular editors unlike the article presented as objective truth. In most cases discussion on talk pages does not harm the subjects of the articles. Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:31, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Involved admin should resign at Asaram
These events have gone too far, and wp:INVOLVED admin should resign as admin, after having edited the page "Asaram Bapu" to remove 3 sections without prior consensus (dif006) and then later full-protect locking the page (dif001), and double-removing sourced comments (linked to wp:RS reliable sources) from the talk-page (acting again as wp:INVOLVED admin) and edit-warring (or wp:WHEEL-warring) over talk-page comments with User:Jimbo_Wales, the founder (hello?). There were just too many out-of-control actions by Bbb23, who should resign, rethink wp:BLP policies, consider the import of linking sourced police charges, learn to talk with the founder, and reflect on severity of actions, before re-applying to be admin again. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:16, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, as nom. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:16, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose desysoping. I disagree heavily with Bbb23's reverts and unilateral redactions despite a clear consensus that inquiring about something which is in the news is not a violation of BLP, so long as it does not presuppose guilt (wonder what would have happened if the same thing had been attempted at Michael Vick...), and I still think a 24 hour block may have been necessary. However, I am going to assume good faith of Bbb23's behalf and only say that he had the best of intentions (and that being safe is better than being sorry). Jimbo, though he established Wikipedia, should not have any more power over the community than anyone else with the admin flag. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:21, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Black Kite, why do you suggest WP:RFCU when you closed this thread? No one is accusing anyone of sock-puppeting in this. Did you intent to say WP:RFC/U? Edison (talk) 04:42, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, sorry, just a typo. Fixed. Black Kite (talk) 06:18, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I just wish to point out that Bbb23 never took the "break" that he promised and is widely cited by many, which is evident from his contribution history.--Crème3.14159 (talk) 12:32, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The only "break" I see mentioned is the Bbb says they would unlock the page - an action that (s)he undertook four minutes after posting that comment - and disengage from the article and its talk page - which (s)he has followed precisely since making that comment. VanIsaacWS Vexcontribs 13:02, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Protect the article?
I still think BLP policy should be enforced at the Asaram Bapu, and currently some editors are trying to include wild claims into said article. Can someone please fully protect it to prevent the rather serious BLP violations that are going on? IRWolfie- (talk) 09:29, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised that you find that rather serious BLP violations are going on. It is my impression that the article is looking pretty good, and the talk page is courteous and shows cooperation.  I can believe that things could get worse, considering that both political and religious issues are involved in the article, but for now it seems just fine to me.  Gandydancer (talk) 01:04, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The article is a much better condition than what it was a couple of days ago. We may need full protection if the previous editors return (for these editors Bbb23 had to re-protect the article within few hours). -- Tito ☸ Dutta 02:10, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Considering I removed, yesterday, an accusation that he murdered someone I don't agree, IRWolfie- (talk) 09:00, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Considering that the section was added by an editor that has been barred from further edits for a few days and deleted by you on Sept. 2 without further difficulties, I don't agree with your suggestion that we are having article problems. Gandydancer (talk) 14:59, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Quick archiving help needed
No admin tools or privileges needed, but probably more admins than nonadmins know how to help me. The proposal about the article incubator has been closed, so it should be removed from cent — I can do that, but I don't have time to figure out the archiving. Could someone do both removal and archiving? Nyttend (talk) 01:11, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅ 64.40.54.117 (talk) 19:55, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to change the way the yearly Arbitration Committee Election RFC is conducted
I have initiated an RFC at WP:VPP that may be of interest to regulars here, widespread community input would be appreciated. Monty 845  22:47, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Competence/English issue
I've come across a contributor - that I believe may have an intractable English/Wikipedia competence issue. I noticed the page மேலப்பெருமழை, and tagged it with the notenglish tag, which the user changed to Tamil. This is the second time they have done this today. I've posted on their talk page, but since they have contributed solely in Tamil, I am afraid that the language barrier may prevent talk page messages from getting through. If anyone can write in Tamil, I would appreciate some help in communicating with them. VanIsaacWS Vexcontribs 01:35, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * To find a translator, you can try Translators available or Category:User_ta-N or Category:User_ta. Or you can try posting in English on the http://ta.wikipedia.org village pump.


 * I'm not an admin. But my hunch is that you don't need to bother finding a translator. The same user has created an identically-named page on the Tamil Wikipedia: see their contributions there. Just tell the Tamil user (in English) to stop posting non-English articles, and if they keep on doing so, block them. Once they are blocked, they will go back to the Tamil Wikipedia and resume contributing there instead of here.


 * [Edit: If it were me, I might start with uw-english plus uw-notenglish plus uw-create1. If that didn't help, I'd next jump straight to uw-create4. If that still didn't help, I'd request a block here or at WP:AIV. It might be possible to get the article deleted using CSD A2. Note that Twinkle provides a nice GUI which makes deletion tagging, plus user warning and reporting, easier: it's well worth using.]


 * Cheers, &mdash;Unforgettableid (talk) 03:30, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I've deleted the page, since it does indeed exist on the Tamil Wikipedia, and left a note for the editor; they may well have created it here in error, that happens surprisingly often. However, nobody made a section at WP:Pages needing translation into English, so potential translators were not alerted. Please remember that next time when applying the not English template. Yngvadottir (talk) 04:47, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I thought the template put it where it needs to go. I'll take a look at the template wording and see if it can be a bit more explicit. VanIsaacWS Vexcontribs 04:54, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There was someone who translated the uw-english notes to multiple languages and placed them as templates somewhere, I translated one of the notes to Tamil for them, I can't seem to find it, but those translations might be helpful in the future. cheers. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  05:10, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Found it., the category has a list of templates in many languages. User:Jarkeld created these if I'm not mistaken. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  05:25, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

RfC on a proposal to have links in "monthly" section headings in year-in articles
An administrator has stated that I should begin a request for comment (as in here).

The following is a request for comment on a proposal to have year-in articles henceforth add reader useful links within "monthly" section headings with respect to WP:MOS.

Manual of Style states in subsection Section headings that, "Headings should not normally contain links.

I have italized the word "normally" because I believe that I have discovered an instance where a section heading should have a link. The link would achieve the wikipedian editors' accepted practice of helping the reader. The linking would introduce a labor saving step of linking to the source whereupon the following data was drawn from.

Year-in articles (e.g. 2008 in the United States, 2010 in science, 2012 in film), as well as, year articles (e.g. 1982, 2013, 1603) are considered I quote, "intrinsically chronological articles" (as is stated here). As such, these articles gain a large, thou not complete, immunity from WP:OVERLINKING of dates.

In the "Events", "Births", and "Deaths" subsections of these year-in articles data is routinely added to the monthly subsections by editors. Since 1999 and most especially since 2004, the quote/unquote events and quote/unquote deaths have been daily drawn from pages such as these May 2011 and Deaths in October 2008. The year-in subsections "Events","Births", and "Deaths" have been filled into monthly subsections by editors whom believe that certain daily items warrant notability.

In particular, I state that I have for the last three years been far-and-away the major good-shepard editor of the year-in wiki articles for the United States (e.g. 2011 in the United States, 2012 in the United States, 2013 in the United States) as is proven here (ip 70.162 was me also), here, and here.

I would like to add links within the months subsection headings (as I have done here). I would like to add links to the months instead of a "{ {see also} }" since it would be less ubtrusive and more accurate, and thereby, more useful, to the reader.

Although I believe that all year-in articles should use this format I am only today seeking to change the year-in the United States wiki pages for the years that can be linked 1999 thru present since (1) these are the only years currently available and (2) "I" only routinely patrol the United States articles and do not wish to force other countries or catagories good-faith shepards to abide by this change if they are not so willing.--68.231.15.56 (talk) 23:02, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

A fix I can't make
Could someone rm * Category:Television series by Buena Vista Television to Category:Television series by Disney-ABC Domestic Television from WP:CFDW. At the time of nominating this for speedy renaming I didn't notice, that this rename was already discussed at a full CFD, and therefore it shouldn't be renamed speedily. Armbrust The Homunculus 08:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅ - The Bushranger One ping only 16:36, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * . Armbrust The Homunculus 16:53, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Seemingly heavy-handed semi-protection
The article David Mathison has been indefinitely semi-protected after one instance of IP vandalism in its entire history. If there are no further reasons for this protection (like oversighted edits), it seems to be rather misguided. But since one admin decided that I'm not allowed to post on the talk page of the admin that did the protection any longer, I bring this admin action (and probably needed admin re-action of unprotecting) here for discussion. If anyone else can post the necessary notification at User talk:Jimbo Wales, I'ld be grateful. Fram (talk) 09:51, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅ Armbrust The Homunculus 09:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Fram (talk) 10:03, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see any requests from IPs to edit the page, no do I see much IP editing in the history. Is there a specific request somewhere? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:11, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There could have been a personal request as JW and DM have been in contact before. Agathoclea (talk) 10:17, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think Casliber means there haven't been any edit requests, implying there isn't a reason for IPs to be able to edit the page. Having said that, this is not a relevant question. Protection policy does not allow for indefinite semi-protection based upon a lack of IP editing, nor based on a single piece of IP vandalism. Not even for living people. As an admin, I would have declined even a very temporary semi-protection following a single piece of vandalism. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:23, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Is there a reason why this has been posted here instead of WP:RFPP, where such routine matters are normally handled? I don't think that indefinite semi-protection was needed here, but there's a reasonable case for taking unusual steps to protect BLPs such as this which have few watchers and receive few page views and where the addition of potentially libelous material isn't removed for two days. Nick-D (talk) 10:33, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * @Qwyrxian - yes there are sometimes other issues that make the easiest approach a discrete semi. Not common but not unheard of. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:59, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That's why I mentioned the possibility of e.g. oversighted edits, and that's why I wanted to discuss it first instead of just removing the protection. Fram (talk) 11:17, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * RFPP step 1: "If you are requesting unprotection, it is almost always a good idea to ask the protecting admin first before listing a page here." I'm not allowed to do this. Fram (talk) 11:17, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Could you could have included a request to notify Jimbo as part of a RFPP post? Nick-D (talk) 11:23, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * @Agathoclea. I was unaware that there have been previous contacts between Wales and Mathison, but I notice now that you are right: . Whether the protection is the result of a direct request to Wales, or because Wales had the page on his watchlist and noticed the single piece of vandalism (or rather the reversion of it) is of course unknown. Fram (talk) 11:17, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've unprotected the page for now, but we should watch out for further vandalism. Just as a side note, I had to follow the links to even remember who this person is - he apparently interviewed me once a few years ago and then emailed me to inquire about the vandalism (which was pretty vicious and personal) so I semi-protected the page.  He did not specifically request protection, he just wanted to know what to do about it.  For those on the look out for conflict of interest editing - this is not a friend of mine nor even someone I actually know in real life at all.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:34, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I guess this can be closed now (and we should be watching out for vandalism on "every" BLP of course, that's what PC was supposed to be used for). Fram (talk) 11:41, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Is this legit?
I noticed that a new self-declared single-purpose account,, has appeared with the declared purpose of "Keeping a watch on Wealthfront". Its sole contribution so far appears to be a series of allegations posted to Jimbo's user talk page. It looks highly likely that this is a sockpuppet of an established user (whether in good standing or previously blocked). This doesn't really pass the smell test for me. What do others think? Prioryman (talk) 10:41, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree, Prioryman,  this is not a brand new user by any stretch  KoshVorlon . We are all Kosh ... 11:08, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's almost certainly exactly who you might guess it to be, as his latest hobby seems to be looking for anyone who I may have ever met or known and then researching their business and personal interests and then searching for COI editing in order to confront me about it. I suppose the angle he's pushing is that I allegedly take a dim view of COI editing, but in fact allow my friends to do it at will.  That's completely false, of course.  (I also don't immediately lecture everyone I meet about COI editing!)
 * Having said all of that, I think all the edits should be examined carefully and most of them reverted as obviously promotional. But for obvious reasons I'm going to personally stay out of it, since in fact, it has nothing to do with me at all.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:38, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

User:Jamie926
This user page bothers me somewhat. I feel that there is too much personal information on it, and things being the way they are I'm not 100% confident that it is autobiographical. However, I am loathe to just jump in and delete things from other people's user pages. Shortly after it was created I had noindexed it with the userpage template so that it would at least stay off the search engines, but now the user has deleted that template. Should I just leave it alone and walk away? Thanks. -- &#124; Uncle Milty &#124; talk  &#124; 16:05, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I put the NOINDEX magic-underscore-thingy, which is perhaps less intrusive, on the user's page. That being said, Google already got to it. Assuming that everything stated there is true, the person would be in their early twenties, which means that a 'for your own good' deletion isn't neatly as likely as if the user were broadcasting that they were in their early teens. I'm not sure if this is a cry for help, or if it's someone confusing Wikipedia with a social networking site, but it is, if not irregular, certainly not common. That being said, people are free to say what they want about themselves, and I can think of plenty of users that have put more information about themselves on their user pages with little or no controversy. More clarity will come in time, as we will see if the user ever makes an edit outside of the user namespace or not. If it's the latter, I'd have no issue deleting the user page, or any other less controversial user page, per WP:NOTSOCIALNETWORK.  S ven M anguard   Wha?  16:22, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I guess it's the third-person voice of it that worries me the most, as most of that text rightly wouldn't survive 5 seconds unreferenced in a BLP. -- &#124; Uncle Milty &#124; talk  &#124; 16:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Give it a few hours, and if nothing changes, I would say that deletion is in order. The user's last edit was less than an hour ago, so there's a chance that they could come back. Normally I would say wait a few days before making a NOTSOCIALNETWORK deletion, but this is a special circumstance.  S ven M anguard   Wha?  16:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not quite sure how this is a special circumstance. NOINDEXing it handles the privacy concerns, so a hasty deletion would be simply BITEy. — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  21:09, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with you. However, apparently someone disagreed with you, because they've oversighted the page and the deletion log entry.  Nyttend (talk) 01:57, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No someone, someguy (left note on user talk page) NE Ent 02:00, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

If someone had posted this as an article, it would be deleted immediately as a BLP violation. The fact that it is on a userpage makes no difference. The fact that the user who created the page claims to be its subject means only that we should be nice about it, not that we should allow the page to stand. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:13, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I feel compelled to voice an objection to all this. I don't know why the Oversight team feels they need to prevent people from identifying themselves as victims. You said some of the information on yours would be considered problematic if you turn out not to be the Jamie described there. I disagree. Saying that you were a victim of certain things, and that it had a negative effect on your mental health, is nothing to be ashamed of, and I struggle to see why it should ever be "considered problematic." Now, if you want to take a NOTSOCIALNETWORK stand, that's one thing, but I really don't think this merited OS. — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  02:16, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Look at it from a different perspective: Was it actually Jamie who created the user and posted the info, or was this a well-disguised attack page? -- <font color="#ffffff">&#124; <font color="#000051">Uncle Milty &#124; <font color="#005c00">talk  <font color="#ffffff">&#124; 02:24, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a valid-enough argument, though I'm not sure I agree. But since when do we oversight attack pages? — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  02:29, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't have (much) of a problem with the deletion since the editor had no edits elsewhere. I don't recall seeing a name other than "Jamie," which isn't specific enough to make it a BLP. NE Ent 02:22, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it did contain a full name. But, once again, I don't see why OS was necessary. — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  02:29, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you Someguy1221. I now have a better idea of how to properly handle these as I come across them. -- <font color="#ffffff">&#124; <font color="#000051">Uncle Milty &#124; <font color="#005c00">talk  <font color="#ffffff">&#124; 02:24, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Based on editing history and patterns, it is clear that User:Jamie926 and User:Morales91 are the same person. Although I would like to assume good faith, it's likely that User:Morales91 created this alternate account in order to avoid the scrutiny, for lack of a better word, brought about as a result of Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Morales91. The user has been wholly unresponsive to attempts to engage him/her in a meaningful discussion. -- Black Falcon (talk) 04:58, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The BLP violations still exist in the history here. FYI. Rgrds. --64.85.217.102 (talk) 05:18, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Never mind, they were nuked just as I posted here. --64.85.217.102 (talk) 05:23, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Proposing community ban of TheREALCableGuy
I have hesitated to take this action for months, but it is now obvious that I cannot hold off on this action any longer. The television station article community has been dealing with the combative for the last couple years as the user has steadfastly refused to discuss anything regarding their edits or to come to a compromise on such little things as the grids in digital television channel sections. The user also refused to discuss anything on their talk page and only did so when threatened with any kind of block. In April of this year after six short blocks through the last two years, TRCG received a six month block with the WP:SO made if they wanted to come back and edit in a cooperative manner. The block was changed to indefinite a month later after IP and username socks were discovered, but the SO was still in play if they wanted to come back.

Since that point however, TRCG has decided to sock relentlessly, and continue with the tenuous edits, along with a bizarre obsession with removing any mention of the FCC required E/I programming in articles, and an irrational hate of anything involving the Parents Television Council and Action for Children's Television, calling them "liberal" organizations that should not be mentioned at all in articles. I have attempted to reason with this editor over and over again, to no use, and through IP socks and several attempted usernames, they now edit using public terminals at libraries, cafes and Apple Stores, along with playing keep-away using what is either a Sprint phone or broadband stick where they dodge the moment they're discovered and continue to unplug their modem to grab a new IP number. They continue blank their IP talk pages without comment as seen here. Therefore I ask for the backing of a community ban; I never wanted to take it to this step as TRCG would have been good for the project if they followed our guidelines, but their refusal to do so has brought me to this step. Any further questions/concerns, please let me know. Thank you. <font face="Myriad Web"> Nate  • ( chatter ) 20:03, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, but it is superfluous: all of his edits can be reverted and all of his accounts can be immediately blocked based on the block evasion alone, and no sane admin would unblock at this point.&mdash;Kww(talk) 20:13, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support as pew Kww; there is already a de facto community ban in place, so making it explicit shouldn't be a problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Wordsmith (talk • contribs) 20:53, 2 September 2013‎  (UTC) . Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 21:19, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">GSK ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 21:29, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support I'm not an admin, but I support this ban. It's unfortunate because his factual edits tended to be solid, but he was notoriously uncooperative with the community, and he deleted any and all criticism from his talk page almost immediately without responding. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 21:53, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support per Kww. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 22:04, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support and propose speedy close as per WP:SNOW. John Carter (talk) 22:21, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Normally these things are held open for at least 24 hours.&mdash;Kww(talk) 22:26, 1 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I'm the CableGuy's only champion here, I suppose, and a lousy one at that. Moreover, as is pointed out above, he's de facto banned with Kww hitting mass rollback, no doubt, every time he runs into him. I've tried to connect with CableGuy, always unsuccessfully, but--as is pointed out above--his edits are solid. What a shame. Drmies (talk) 23:27, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment - I regret to say that I don't know whether "mandatory editor review" is an option that can be imposed by the noticeboards here, or whether only ArbCom at this point can do so. I wouldn't myself necessarily object to imposition of a topic ban pertaining only to the article-space pages themselves, not the article talk pages, to allow him to at least propose the changes he would want to make and allow them to receive discussion. If anyone thought that would be workable, I would definitely prefer that. I just don't know if it would be workable, or whether this individual is one who would accept such restrictions. John Carter (talk) 15:49, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Problem is, Cable Guy don't talk. Drmies (talk) 17:15, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * As he hasn't posted since 10 July 2013 (and that  was on  his talk  page), and as it  appears that  he has resorted to  socking  anyway, I  don't  think he's likely  to  respond. The ban won't  stop  the socking, but  it ought  to  be imposed;. That  will  leave no  question open as to  whether his sock  edits can be procedurally  deleted or not. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:04, 3 September 2013 (UTC) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:04, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I wish it would work to use that suggestion, but we've tried to help the user over the last couple years and the user would only make a hurried comment when they were on the edge of a block rather than work with anybody (it took them a couple blocks before they ceased adding fair use television station logos to their userpage for instance). Seeing as they think the conservative PTC is somehow a "liberal" organization and made a revdel'ed personal attack against me and Kww in a sock edit though, I'm afraid it wouldn't work. <font face="Myriad Web"> Nate  • ( chatter ) 13:48, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support to make it crystal clear that evasion of a legitimate block won't be tolerated, and also because, as his defender Drmies points out, "Cable Guy don't talk".  Cullen <sup style="color:purple;">328  Let's discuss it  06:55, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Query about closing discussions
I'm asking here in case I'm totally off-base - is it possible for one user to repeatedly remove another user's statement of withdrawal from a discussion? I'd previously opened a thread at ANI (WP:ANI), but after some discussion, have come to the conclusion that RFC/U would be a better venue, and closed the thread with a withdrawal of my request (as a close upon withdrawal seems entirely usual), explaining that RFC/U seemed like a better venue and that the thread was devolving into personal attacks (unsupported complaints, "bitchy," users who had been following me coming in to stand on a soapbox about unrelated issues, the user the topic ban was proposed for repeatedly ascribing my edits to my sexual orientation). User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz reverted this close (and reverted it again when I closed again). Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he can actually compel me to pursue the request for a topic ban (which he seems to want to do because most of the users who have commented are supporters of the misbehaving user, although some others did support a block/topic ban after the user repeatedly brought up my orientation). I think that if he has his own problems with Esoglou, he's obviously welcome to copy my diffs but should start a new thread, rather than trying to force me to see a request through that I've repeatedly stated I do not wish to pursue in that venue. Is this correct? –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 13:38, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What, precisely, is your query? It looks from here that you ascribed the edits of an editor to their religious beliefs - which is quite likely equally culpable on your part as their improper comments about your sexual orientation were.  When two are equally culpable, I wonder what the proper result ought be. Collect (talk) 13:54, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Using Wikipedia to promote a company or organization is not permitted whether or not one is personally affiliated with it. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 16:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the precedent is that if you have been involved with the discussion, which has seen substantial discussion from other editors, it is rather poor form to just close it saying that you are choosing to pursue an alternative route. Particularly as sanctions have started to be discussed. Preferably, you probably should have opened a subsequent section laying out that you are intending to pursue an RFC/U and would be incorporating diffs from the open ANI into it then asked an uninvolved admin to consider closing it up and redirecting it to RFC/U. I believe that you should let the topic ban discussion run its course and from that decide whether an RFC/U is worth the effort. It would probably be looked upon as a bit of a pile on though. Blackmane (talk) 14:48, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I largely agree with Blackmane. While we do allow people to withdraw requests and sometimes this may allowing simply closing the request like if you're the only participant or if you're directed to somewhere else, it's important to differentiate between your request and a community discussion. For example, if a nominator withdraws an AFD when no one has commented yet, people with be happy if they do the needful and close the request. If a nominators tries to close an AFD they initiated because they changed their mind when most people are supporting delete, then this generally won't be acceptable. They can withdraw their comment, but the AFD should be closed as it normally would. Similarly here, while you are entitled to say you are withdrawing your request, if there has been a substanial amount of community discussion, that's now seperate from you request and you can't just shut it down. It may be someone will feel that nothing is likely to happen and nothing productive will come from it and close the discussion, but leave that for a neutral closer. Even if you believe it's resonable to close your request, once someone has reverted you should take that as a sign the other person disagrees and leave it at that. You are free to ignore the discussion from now although bear in mind this won't stop any possible sactions on you being discussed although a request for you to be notified if that starts to happen seems resonable (and of course it could be something will happen which will make your RFC/U moot). To put it in the terms you did, no one can compel you to pursue a topic ban, but you also can't compel others to stop discussing that or any other possibility having been made aware of problems by you. Nil Einne (talk) 15:21, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable. What do you propose for allowing other users to continue discussing Esoglou's edits without disrupting any other administrative processes? (and preferably without serving as an open invitation for more personal attacks of the sort we've already seen) What I'm concerned about is that my decision not to engage further in the thread will be taken as evidence that the diffs did not show wrongdoing, when in fact the purpose of the RFC/U will be to explain them for people like those who have commented, who aren't familiar with the sources or subject matter. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 16:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Like Blackmane intimated above, withdrawing your proposal and closing the discussion are two distinct acts. Especially if the conversation ever discussed your own actions, it was probably improper for you to unilaterally close the discussion - essentially you were closing down a complaint lodged by other editors about your behaviour. So feel free to put a strike through your original complaint and add a note that you are pursuing the matter in an RFC/U, but closing down the entire discussion is bad form. VanIsaacWS Vex<sup style="margin-left:-7.0ex">contribs 00:48, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, as I alluded to above, something that's an issue in the current discussion is that people are flinging accusations left and right but, because it's a thread about someone else's misbehavior, they evidently don't feel compelled to present any evidence to back up what they're saying (even when asked). A new thread might give them the opportunity to do things the right way. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 00:57, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm curious as to why Roscelese has not reverted their closure yet given the advice given above? NE Ent 01:30, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm hoping we can come up with a solution here to the problems I mentioned above, so that when the discussion is re-opened, neither I nor other users will again be subjected to the personal attacks and other off-topic discussion that went on before the thread was closed. Hopefully we can find something that allows people to air their concerns without making ANI a forum for unspecified and vague grudges, slurs, or homophobic commentary. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 03:03, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism
Please block this user TheRedPenOfDoom, because this user added vandalism tags & edits, and this user deleted/deletes infobox, television box and references on every articles. i think this user TheRedPenOfDoom is crazy. Please check their Contributes Or their edits [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pyaar_Ka_Dard_Hai_Meetha_Meetha_Pyaara_Pyaara&action=historysubmit&diff=571506397&oldid=570830119 diff] in  [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pyaar_Ka_Dard_Hai_Meetha_Meetha_Pyaara_Pyaara&oldid=571506397 New] & [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pyaar_Ka_Dard_Hai_Meetha_Meetha_Pyaara_Pyaara&oldid=569746098 Old]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.37.224.180 (talk) 15:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There is nothing wrong with those edits by TheRedPenOfDoom. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  16:53, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There is apparently a pretty wide range of articles about Indian television shows that have had little input and oversight from experienced editors and so the pages have long functioned as free fansite blogs. The conversion towards more encylcopedic articles and coverage of the topics will likely be painful for those who have long simply used Wikipedia to post whatever they want. As the editors are mostly very dynamic IPs, getting communications to them is difficult. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  18:58, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Mafia state
Was reading a few pages today and noticed that at Mafia state there is a 4 day old edit war going on. Think an admin should take a look. -- Moxy (talk) 17:34, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There is already an open discussion regarding the article at ANI.--<b style="color:Navy;">Jezebel's</b> Ponyo <sup style="color:Navy;">bons mots 20:16, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

User talk:SymbozOnline
Continues to use talk page for spam after being blocked. Ginsuloft (talk) 21:11, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Re blocked without talk page. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:48, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you Beeblebrox. Ginsuloft (talk) 22:03, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement closed
An arbitration case regarding the Tea Party movement has now closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:

For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:00, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Discuss this

Please close RfC at Talk:Tea Party movement
There was a merge proposal at Talk:Tea Party movement on August 8 (27 days ago) — suggesting a merge of Agenda of the Tea Party movement with the parent Tea Party movement article, and while these things normally last 30 days, I see no reason to wait another three days for a close. The "voting" ended on August 10 (9-3 opposed to the merge, and the opposition presented policy-based arguments against the merge). The discussion ended on August 12. Accordingly, please close the RfC and remove the templates from both of the articles. Thank you. regards ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 18:35, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The page you're looking for is Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure. What do we gain from not waiting a few more days? Hasteur (talk) 20:25, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Requesting block of User:Thisgalladumc
As this users history shows, they keep editing a single article by removing content that is well sourced. They seem to object to the negative implication of the addition & so continuously remove it. They seek to legitimize their removal by mentioning IMO arguments that have no relevance to the Wikipedia policy that they claim to seek to uphold. I don't trust that they are objective editors regarding the article in any sense.Fotoriety (talk) 08:01, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, I've removed your edit from that article. That is extremely weak sourcing, the source only mentions her in passing and all it says is "A Korean official claimed she had used her title for personal gain." (emphasis mine).  We don't write negative information about living people because a single source has a minor mention about a claim.  You yourself should be afraid of a block.  Please do not restore it, I'll be watchlisting the article and you'll be the one reported here if you do.--v/r - TP 18:09, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * And read our policy on biographies of living people.--v/r - TP 18:09, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

RFPP
There is high backlog at WP:RFPP. Mops are needed there. Armbrust The Homunculus 09:11, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Will look and try to help. Thanks for the HU. -- Alexf(talk) 12:57, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Semi'd one. Everything else looks taken care of already. Cheers. -- Alexf(talk) 13:11, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There's still a massive backlog, and it was far from sorted when this was marked as resolved... Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 18:58, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Removing "resolved" tag - we've been doing them a bit randomly so there are a few still to do. I need to hop off now so anyone else is welcome. There are some which require some thought too. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:47, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The page is caught up again as of now. Everyone please continue to monitor though, as the situation can change rapidly -- Diannaa (talk) 00:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Mark Blocked Users script not working for me. Anybody else with this issue?
A few days ago (about when some clearing bots went on strike), my Mark Blocked Users script stopped working. I've checked my monobook and see the script is there (from ru.wikipedia.org), but it is not working for me. The blocked users mark is very useful and a pain to work without. Anybody else sees this problem? I do not know who to contact for a resolution or fix. Thanks. -- Alexf(talk) 12:54, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm using NW's script (User:NuclearWarfare/Mark-blocked script.js), which also just imports the ru.wiki script, and I'm not having any problems. Try that instead? Or compare the way NW's page imports it to the way your page imports it (they seem to have slightly different syntax). --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:35, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It is the same as I had already except mine had http;//ru.wikipedia.org... I replaced with yours and saved. It works now. Thanks! -- Alexf(talk) 14:53, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I had the Russian script to. All I did was remove the "http:" from the beginning so it was protocol independent.--v/r - TP 18:00, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

User:VeblenBot/C/GAR/56
The archive page is not displaying well. I notified the operator of User:VeblenBot, but he won't return until November. --George Ho (talk) 17:53, 5 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I am busy most of the time and have little time to respond. The problem is that the page is too large, so the software cuts it off. There is a "partial transclusion trick" that the GA people used to use to handle this, by editing the longest reviews so they do not transclude. But the bot is not set up to handle the problem, it merely lists all the pages in the appropriate category. If any enterprising person would like to replace the VeblenBot system for GA and Peer Review, I would be happy to turn this task over to them. I will not have time to add any significant functionality in the forseeable future. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 00:35, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

News shortage
We could use some nominations at WP:ITN/C. Have you recently updated an article about a current news event? If so, please nominate it for appearance on the home page. Jehochman Talk 00:48, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

AIV helperbots making edits while logged out again
I'd just like to notify that you may want to indef softblock 185.15.59.201 and while you're at it, extend the block for 185.15.59.211 to an indef one. It's not me who's being bureaucratic, it's that the toolserver rules are rather strict and we don't want the helperbots to lose their account there. Thanks! Ginsuloft (talk) 11:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Should I be nuked?
Today I've moved and edited quite some pages of Kiev related articles from Kyiv to Kiev as per our use English title policy, but now I doubt my actions as the English official sites of these entities do (deliberately) use "Kyiv" which may justify the usage of this non-English name of the place. "Kiev" on the other hand is not welcomed by Ukrainian users because it is transliterated from Russian language of the name. But in order to avoid unnecessary controversies with Ukrainian users, please nuke my edits to previous versions since 6 September 2013. Sorry for all the troubles. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 02:01, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * See WP:NUKE. Unfortunately, we have no way to do a mass-undo of your edits; we'll have to do them manually.  Regarding your request — are you simply asking that we undo every action (except for your request here, of course) that you took on 6 September?  I don't want to revert something that shouldn't be reverted.  Nyttend (talk) 05:44, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, my request was just undo my Kiev/Kyiv-related edits on 6/9/2013 (sorry for my silly rhetoric). Some action (article move and deletion of new category) requires admin privilege. I made the Kyiv-Kiev edits halfway through today but I realized that some of those might not be justifiable so I would rather undo them until we have a better clarification on this specific matter. The Kiev-Kyiv issue is increasingly more complicated because the Ukrainian/Kiev Governments and media insist on the renaming in English media. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 06:20, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Do the edits violate a policy? If so, then WP:MRbk could be used. 64.40.54.22 (talk) 07:09, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * They don't, and mass rollback would revert other legitimate edits as well. Ansh666 07:47, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sameboat, please check your contributions. I've moved back all the pages that I saw, but I probably missed something.  I really have to disagree with this move, because as User:Taivo says at Talk:Kiev/naming, "The most common name in English is the name of the article and Kiev is, by a factor of ten, the most common name for Kiev in English" — not to mention the fact that the article is at Kiev, so it seems confusing for related articles to use a different transliteration.  Finally, Ansh/64.40.54.22/Sameboat, we can't use rollback on pagemoves; it only works for normal edits to pages.  Meanwhile, this would be a common-sense exception to the rollback policy's prohibition of using it on non-disruptive edits: you're always allowed to use rollback on your own edits, so there's nothing wrong with asking someone else to do it for you if you think that you mangled a bunch of pages.  Nyttend (talk) 20:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thx. The reason I made this request despite mixed opinion on the matter is that I don't want to get involved in the debate which I am in no position to partcipate. I did the moves and edits because I thought they were clean cut cases but it turns out not that simple as the English official sites of those entities use Kyiv instead of Kiev. One thing I must stress that this request and admin's response to this request do not instantly translate as WIkipedia now prefers Kyiv over Kiev. Anyone can perform the same move again. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 00:34, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions review
Since March 2013, various individual members of the Arbitration Committee have been reviewing the existing Discretionary sanctions process, with a view to (i) simplifying its operation and (ii) updating its procedures to reflect various clarification and amendment requests. An updated draft of the procedure is available for scrutiny and discussion here. Roger Davies talk 07:27, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Discuss this.

Interaction ban
Is it appropriate to request an interaction ban with. To my recollection, I have been banned blocked three times on WP. Two are in the last month in heated discussions with Crisco 1492. He has MFDed three of my pages last month, each garnering 2/3rds suppport keeps or more. He ANed and ANIed me three times in the last month. We just don't seem to be able to get along. I think most folks around here are aware of the issues, but I'll provide diffs if necessary.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:09, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you mean blocked? I'll be back later with an opinion.-- Gilderien Chat&#124;List of good deeds 17:48, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought there was a such thing as an interaction ban. I am making inquiries. Is that a possible request here. I have seen such outcomes in the WP:POST reports. I don't know if I can seek one here.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:10, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You are still required to notify. There is such thing as an interaction ban, I was referring to your "banned 3 times" - you were blocked, not banned, as banning cannot be done by a single editor.-- Gilderien Chat&#124;Contributions 21:40, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Tony, despite at least two red-letter warnings on this page, you failed to notify Crisco of this discussion. I've done so here. Also, still awaiting that apology for libeling me.  Cdtew  (talk) 19:46, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Where were the red-letter warnings? People now get autopinged when you link their ID. Are direct notifications still required?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:10, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Libel? Maybe we shouldn't interact either.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:10, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Have you ALREADY forgotten about your unfounded accusations of racism directed at Cdtew that basically are libel ?
 * Yes, there is a red-letter warning at the top of this page, and a warning in orange at the top of the edit page. They both say "you must notify", not "the editor will automatically be notified". As for libel, you stated five times I was a racist with no basis for that statement beyond your own malice. The textbook definition of defamation per se - putting it in writing makes it libel per se.  Cdtew  (talk) 03:21, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I fail to see the motivation here. If Crisco 1492 is successfully identifying things you have created that you shouldn't have, why should we discourage him from continuing to do so?&mdash;Kww(talk) 20:28, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I meant each one has 2/3rds support for keeping.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:10, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I fail to see how asking for an interaction ban is warranted when both times you've been blocked for something you really shouldn't have been doing anyways (edit warring and implying that other editors were racists without proof). I'm still waiting for an apology after you implied that I and others who disagreed with you are racists, but given your previous behaviour I know that's an uphill battle that's going to take over a month. Now, if you want me to stay out of your user space, I don't mind, and only ask that you return the favour (with the obvious exception of notifying each other when required, such as with ANI postings) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:26, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * For those who don't know the background, the first ANI thread that led to Tony being blocked (started by The_ed17, actually) and the current one. I also brought Tony to ANI here, but he did not get blocked after that excursion. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:53, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

STRONG oppose - This is just TTT's latest attempt to say "I am right, the rest of the universe is wrong!". PantherLeapord&#124;My talk page&#124;My CSD log 23:56, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose I-ban which looks to me like an attempt to prevent Crisco 1492 from making legitimate complaints about TTT. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:43, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * How can you oppose a ban I am just inquiring about?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:13, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose I-ban - this appears, to me, to be yet another symptom of Tony's habit of not listening because clearly the problem is everyone else and not him. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:52, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * How can you oppose a ban I am just inquiring about?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:13, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you can read that as "No, it isn't appropriate". — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:16, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it is inappropriate to ask for an interaction ban in this case since there can really only be one objective: to shut Crisco up. Bad faith question--if the editor is interested in improving matters here he could listen to what others have to say, on the off-chance that they may have a point. Drmies (talk) 23:30, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose as an inappropriate attempt at censoring valid criticism. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 17:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose We all know what Tony the Tiger is like..♦ Dr. Blofeld  15:49, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Interaction ban between TTT and Khazar2 (close requested)
"I need a break from Tony. As a quick recap, I started a brief RfC at WT:FOUR after voting against Crisco's proposal for deletion and a failed attempt to get Tony to moderate his own draft RfC. Like Cdtew, I thought I was something of a neutral outside party on this--I'm not involved with MILHIST and have never won the award--but both us of quickly learned that anyone who's not 100% behind Tony gets on the enemies list in a big way. I believe Tony's now approaching 200 posts on more than 150 pages accusing me of bad-faith rigging of the RfC.
 * Request I-ban for me - I withdrew my earlier request for this, but if Tony's volunteering for interaction bans, I'll have one of those with fries. He's not only posted about me around 200 times this month, but also followed me to another, unrelated project to pick a new fight. Several direct, explicit requests for him to leave me in peace have been unsuccessful. Details and diffs here. I'm going on Wiki-break to get away from the madness, but would love to have a Tony-break on my return. -- Khazar2 (talk) 22:58, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support requested i-ban. 200 postings of this (an implicit swipe at Khazar2) without a single apology, then further ABF everywhere Tony mentions Khazar2? No thank you. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:07, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong support - Khazer doesn't have a truck in this (or a toy truck, even), yet he's getting insulted around the entire site. Definitely time for an interaction ban. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 23:21, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose-obviously an almost baseless sanction request.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:26, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You may feel my RFC notification was inappropriate, but what is wrong with giving advice to a person starting up an award? What have we fought about at an unrelated project?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:26, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Have you read Khazar's post? Let me copy it out in full (diff still as given above): — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:29, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Ranging from: to this a few hours ago:
 * "In case you are wondering why both of these RFC questions are getting unanimous support, you have masterfully conflated two issues with each one making impossible for anyone to give you anything but the meaningless answer you seek.
 * "*I continue to feel that this is one of the most disingenuous processes I have been involved in on RFC... this sneaky process seems to have been used to make statements about having any leadership without any discussion of the rest of the organization of the project. There seems to be no interest in discussing the organization of the project other than to use an RFC about one role of the leadership to make statements about the overall leadership of the project. This all seems to be an attempt to throw the project to admins who have never expressed an interest in the project"

Or see the 150+ posts he made between 6:00 and 8:00 on 20 August, all copies of his claim that I had deliberately crafted my RfC "to conflate issues so as to keep people from expressing meaningful opinions".

Simultaneously, he's shown up at another project I'm initiating; he's already made about 15 posts critiquing it at WT:GAN, going so far as to spend hours creating a massive dataset in his user space to prove his points. Finally another user had to tell him to lay off there, too.

Despite direct and explicit requests from me that we not interact with each other for a while, Tony's pinged me back into the debate ("All along, I have said that Khazar2 either did not understand the issues or purposely conflated them so that they were not really posed to the audience"), continues to post at the Million Award page, and continues to post his accusations at WT:FOUR.

I've turned the other cheek on most of this--I voted against the last proposal to topic-ban TTT, for example, and I've voluntarily withdrawn from further discussion at WT:FOUR--but now that we're approaching hundreds of posts, his persistence is starting to wear me down. Is it possible for me to request here that Tony leaves me in peace for just a few weeks, or is the best solution to simply take a break from Wikipedia until this blows over? As a third alternative, is it allowed for me to simply withdraw my RfC? Frankly, the FOUR debate strikes me as a fundamentally trivial issue, and it's not worth this level of harassment. If there's no administrative will to police something like this, I'm prepared to just say he wins, take a break, and then get back to regular editing. -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:30 am, Today (UTC+7)"

Support - If there is one less editor for TTT to hurl baseless libel at then it can only benefit the encyclopedia. Before you start attacking me; Khazar2 is not making valid criticisms of you while Crisco is and as such your attempt to I-ban him is attempting to stop legitimate criticism while this one is to stop YOU from throwing around BASELESS LIBEL at another editor as though it was candy! PantherLeapord&#124;My talk page&#124;My CSD log 23:56, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks fairly convincing to me. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:30, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I am not sure what behavior you are trying to curb. Advice on an award is not problematic.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:48, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I was stating my continued displeasure with an RFC, it was nothing personal about you.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:48, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Since I wrote the RfC, and you've stated so many times that I did so from manipulative, masterful, sneaky, dishonest, etc. motives, it rather obviously is personal. Tony, I hope we'll work together again in the future without hard feelings, but for now I want a break from your ongoing drama, and I've said that to you over and over again without result. Since you're asking for mutual bans for people you can't get along with, I'm simply asking you to add me to your list. We can make it short-term--a few months or so--but you need to leave off for a bit. -- Khazar2 (talk) 01:20, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Since TTT seems good with being I-Banned, here's one that makes sense. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:41, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What behavior toward Khazar is this attempting to curb. Commenting at WP:GAN at a discussion about a formative award, WP:FOUR on a RFC that I have always disagreed with.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * He's repeatedly asked you to leave him alone temporarily, and instead of doing that, you seem to be following him about. Did you know he is working very hard to bring some articles on core topics to GA? For example, he and I just finished bringing Auschwitz concentration camp to GA. Not everyone is capable of working on these articles, it's not easy material to work on. So I definitely don't want to risk losing this valuable contributor, so when he asks you to leave him alone for a while, I do so wish you would do that, rather than the opposite. -- Diannaa (talk) 03:01, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Don't worry, though, I'm not going anywhere--will be back in October chugging away regardless of outcome here. -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:44, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong support - This puts an end to the hounding, and the horrendously false allegations. Not that I have much confidence in Tony abiding by an IBAN, but there we go. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 13:16, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * At the very least an IBAN provides the grounds for formal sanctions if Tony is unable to abide by it. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:25, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Which was also something at the forefront of my mind, and what my second sentence leads on to. :) Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 17:46, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support temporary interaction ban of three to six months duration. -- Diannaa (talk) 13:37, 2 September 2013 (UTC) This would include making reference to or commenting on each other's activities anywhere on Wikipedia, whether directly or indirectly; commenting about or posting at the talk pages of initiatives being worked by the two editors such as the Four Award or the Million Award; posting on one another's talk pages, except to give official notices; and undoing one another's edits in article space. -- Diannaa (talk) 13:49, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What counts as an official notice? Every 3 months, as the director of WP:CHICAGO, I thank all editors who have produced a new WP:GA or WP:FA for the project. This is sort of an official capacity, but not something policy mandated. I consider it as official as a quarterly project newsletter.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:28, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think notices on behalf of a wikiproject could be counted as "official notices"; it's just a boilerplate message, right? what do other people think? --- Diannaa (talk) 16:56, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure it counts as boilerplate because from quarter to quarter I usually phrase it differently, but they usually look something like this.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:03, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Why would you thank Khazar when specifically asked not to interact with them? If the purpose of the message is to thank the contributor, and therefore encourage them to continue contributing to Chicago related articles, why would you want to jeopardise further contributions with a message they clearly don't want? Unless something like this is automated, I'm confused why you'd even ask whether it is permitted, rather than just avoid it (which seems an easy thing to do). - <font color="Blue">Shudde <font color="Blue">talk 12:00, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Tony, I specifically and explicitly told you just two weeks ago that I didn't want any more of these. I appreciate your efforts to thank other users, but to apply for special permission to keep "thanking" me is disingenuous and obnoxious. -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:40, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, that's a pretty strong consensus that wikiproject notes are not welcome and would be included in the ban. -- Diannaa (talk) 02:54, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong Support Per Dianaa. Why not just make it an indefinite one? My spider sense tells me that this would just rear its head again in 6 months. Blackmane (talk) 14:34, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as per Diannaa. I would also recommend an indefinite ban (Indefinite =/= infinite), simply because I know that Khazar would feel free to request that it be lifted if circumstances required it (i.e. if there were some potential collaboration with Tony in the offing). I don't see any reason to sunset the ban in 6 months and risk disruption once it expires. Tony's comments in this thread smack of WP:IDHT, and that cemented the case for me. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 12:54, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This logic makes sense to me. Thanks. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:53, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support Tony can be an incredibly fussy editor, I'm sure this is perfectly valid request.♦ Dr. Blofeld  15:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support This seems like a legitimate and indeed necessary request. Intothatdarkness 20:37, 5 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Since discussion has slowed to a halt over the past few days, I think an uninvolved admin should make the proper closure here. It is, I think, a fairly self-evident one. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:55, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Since TTT came here asking about an interaction ban (if I understand what TTT is referring to correctly, partially because he ended up being blocked for false accusations of racism based on an apparent long running lack of understanding of what racism even is). Then started complaining when people said no to the interaction ban, because he hadn't actually asked for an interaction ban just asked if it was appropriate (which while nominally true is clearly missing the point). And since TTT's explaination for why he doesn't want an interaction ban in this particular case doesn't really seem particularly convincing, but Khazar2's reasons for the request are. I give my wholehearted support. Nil Einne (talk) 13:49, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Second close request - It's been a week, and discussion has slowed to a trickle; is it possible to close? -- Khazar2 (talk) 12:12, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong Support. The IBAN should be enforced ASAP. Khazar has had enough of it already.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  18:02, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Administrator Nick-D, editor EyeTruth, former editor Blablaaa and the battle over the Battle of Kursk page
I raise this complaint regarding administrator Nick-D over his handling of the disputes over the Battle of Kursk article. I believe the actions of this otherwise sound administrator were inconsistent and were the result of manipulation on the part of a rather elusive and argumentative editor currently editing by the name of EyeTruth. Though the actions of Nick D may appear as favoritism, I believe they were actually done in good conscience and represent an honest mistake.

The administrator became involved following a conversation on the administrator’s talk page between editor EyeTruth who had a lengthy history of contention and edit warring on the page. I was one of a number of editors that opposed a change in the wording to the article. I was not a party to the conversation on the administrators talk page, nor did I receive a knock regarding it.

Editor EyeTruth has been persistently arguing for a change in the wording of the page to include the term "blitzkrieg" in reference to describing the German plans for the battle. This had been contested by a number of editors over the past three months, and had resulted in warnings and blocks being administered (see collapsable below). Nick D came in on request of user EyeTruth as an administrator to help resolve the dispute. Soon after Nick's involvement a discussion was started on the talk page to resolve this issue. While the discussion was underway editor EyeTruth inserted the term again here on 17 August at 17:45. This disrupted the ongoing discussion by short-cutting it. No action was taken by Nick-D against EyeTruth for changing the page.

EyeTruth then immediately went to Nick D's talk page, saying:
 * Hi Nick, please can you keep a close watch on how things will unfold from here on. I've done what I believe is the best solution to this. I've given both sides their due weight; in fact, equal weight. And I took care to word it to perfectly reflect how the dispute runs. That is, some describe it as envisioning (or intending) blitzkrieg, while others simply make no mention of the term in their description (instead of saying that others do not consider it a blitzkrieg, which so far there are no sources explicitly supporting such claims). Also I kept it as brief as possible so as to not disrupt the flow of the text. Check it out. Please stay alert because I'm sure if the dispute continues past this point, it will generate an unnecessary keyboard-war, but I really hope not. EyeTruth (talk) 06:27, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Twenty minutes later I returned the phrasing to as it was before, with admonition to EyeTruth ''“You were asked by the administrator not to change the article until the weekend had passed. You are not in position to decide what is or is not equal weight. EyeTruth, you need to participate in the talk page and await a consensus.”'' It should be pointed out that two other well experienced, sober editors, Sturmvogel 66 and Binksternet, had reverted earlier attempts by EyeTruth to insert his preferred phrasing (see collapsible below).

Shortly after this, Nick D issued a block against myself here, not just from the article in question, but from all of Wikipedia. I responded with an explanatory statement on my talk page, which was the only option available to me, but no response was offered from Nick-D, which is his right.

An hour later administrator Nick-D blocked the article’s page from any further editing for the duration of one week here.

Given the above, it seems curious that no block was placed upon editor EyeTruth when he inserted the contentious material on 20 August at 06:03. It would seem inconsistent to then block editor Gunbirddriver for simply returning the wording to the consensus opinion, especially in light of the fact that an ongoing discussion was underway on the talk page which had promise for reaching a conclusion that was workable for both sides. What role did EyeTruth’s comments on Nick D's talk page play, seen here at 07:34:
 * “Ok, Gunbirddriver has reverted it. His edit summary is the most striking thing about this action. The way he bends words is very scary.”

Is such influence appropriate? His comments on the talk page are responded to within thirty minutes with this response by Nick D: here:
 * Blocked, and I've fully protected the article for a week to provide time to hash out a solution to this matter.

Is it right for editors to be essentially requesting blocks from administrators on their talk page? If the administrator felt it necessary to fully protect the article for a week, why was it also necessary to first block editor Gunbirddriver, an otherwise steady and reasonable contributor?

As to the talk page discussions, the tone on the talk page had been marred by harsh language from EyeTruth for some time, and I believe the discussion would have been well served if Nick-D had noted the contentious manner in which EyeTruth was conducting himself and encouraged him to keep a civil tone. The repeated calling me out as delusional, a liar and as an editor attempting to insert original research into the article needed to be restrained (see collapsible discussion below). Here is a sample of some of the fair:


 * It is only in your delusion.

followed by


 * I never called you delusional; instead, that particular claim of yours is the delusion. Aren't you tired of flashing the "I've-been-insulted-card"?


 * "Trying to insult you"? You're funny. Insulting you, or any other person, is not worth my time. I feel this kind of discussion belongs in a forum. I WILL NOT REPLY AFTER THIS! 

This particular phrasing with all caps was repeated over and over again on the talk page.

A sample exchange:
 * Phrases like "Hahaha", "LOL" and "OMFG" are completely inappropriate and they need to stop. Gunbirddriver (talk) 03:42, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmmmn, interesting opinion. OK, this is now way too hypocritical. How about "hmmmn" and "BTW" and "hehehe". Oh wait, how about "cowboy"? Hahahaha! I won't even bother wasting anymore words on this one lol. EyeTruth (talk) 06:23, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Or this on the Wkipedia Administrators' Noticeboard/Incidents
 * Gunbirddriver is now out to contend every step I take on that article. But I'm not giving in until he justifies his contentions, which thus far he has categorically failed to do.

Or here:
 * I finally took a much closer look at what you did in this article. THE END: a more compact article. THE MEANS: merciless butchery. Reading the lead, I saw an outstanding job but as I went down...! I think we need to bring in other editors on these recent cleanup of yours to save us both an unnecessarily deadlock. You're refusing to comprehend simple explanation and at the same time insisting on the credibility of your original research. EyeTruth (talk) 06:11, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Personally, I think this sounds like he is not in full possession of his senses. Why would I be out to contend every step taken by EyeTruth? My editing amounts to merciless butchery? I have made over two hundred edits to the page. Throughout EyeTruth has displayed an array of deceptive and manipulative practices. On the administrators' talk pages he is very servile and feigns ignorance, when in reality he is a very experienced editor and is well versed in wikipedia administrative policies. He has moved warnings and blocks off his talk page over to his archive section seen here on 5 July and here on 20 August.

He has also been threatening:
 * ''User:Gunbirddriver, you can heed my advice on the article's talkpage or be blocked. And this won't be a block based on biased, false information, like you did. It will be real and stick to your account for good. So heed my advice and the advice of many other editors and admin. EyeTruth (talk) 23:35, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

This editor has an extensive past history editing on Wikipedia that we are unaware of because he has hidden his identity by creating a new user name. He has misled and manipulated two administrators through deceptive practices. He has removed content of warnings to an archive record, feigned ignorance, and perpetrated lies of omission and half-truths, while routinely mis-characterizating the positions of others, and their motives for taking their positions (see Collapsible space):

I have strong reason to suspect that User:EyeTruth is former User:Blablaaa. User:Blablaaa received a block of indefinite duration in August of 2010. User:EyeTruth began editing about seven months ago and has a rather limited track record of working upon Wikipedia. Despite this apparent lack of experience, both editors are extremely well versed in more advanced editing techniques, and are well experienced in the Wikipedia administrative processes of attempting to resolve conflicts and its methods for dealing with disruptive behavior. Both editors are aggressive in argument and assume bad faith on the part of their dissenters. Both editors are willing to pour a tremendous amount of time and energy into their arguments. Both are not native English speakers, though EyeTruth shows significantly expanded use of the language over Blablaaa. Most striking is the history of highly contentious arguments both editors have been involved in over seemingly minor points. In undertaking these arguments both editors tend to insult the intelligence and integrity of the editors they are in argument with, frequently make accusations of lying, improper citations and original research, and they both undertake convoluted arguments that not infrequently assert contradictory positions. Both make use of internet acronyms such as lol, OMG, :¬), @, will place sections of text in green to highlight a section, and in their comments will use bold and all caps frequently when attempting to drive a point home. Both have a fair amount of knowledge in military history, and both will sometimes take peculiar positions which though reflect some truth, tend to distort the record in some manner.  Both lean heavily on David Glantz as a secondary source of information and insist upon what they would consider to be proper citations for any entry made.  Both have received unequivocal support from User: Caden .   Both have a tendency to forum shop until they achieve their desired outcome.  Both were involved with the articles of Battle of Kursk and Battle of Prokhorovka. In addition to making edits on the English Wiki page, User:Blablaaa made edits to the Deutsch Wiki page on the Battle of Kursk article. There is no corresponding German page for the Battle of Prokhorovka. User:EyeTruth has stated that he has been speaking English since the age of three. User:Blablaaa had edited under a number of other identities prior to the series of blocks that constrained his editing in 2010. User:Blablaaa announced he was leaving Wikipedia in late 2010. As to administrator Nick-D, I believe he was taken advantage of and ill used by User:EyeTruth. In the past I have taken note of his work and admired it. I think he is a fine administrator of sound judgment, and I have no issue whatsoever either working with or taking direction from him.

I apologize for the length of this statement. I have notified both individuals. Gunbirddriver (talk) 00:26, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

References:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=EyeTruth&prefix=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27+noticeboard%2F3RRArchive&fulltext=Search

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history/Archive_95#General_Question

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Blablaaa


 * Before, I suspected you enjoyed trolling, but now you've proved it for real. This is too fukin funny XD. EyeTruth (talk) 02:49, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Any admin that will look at this report should please consult with other admins that have been involved with this issue. Gunbirddriver has a solid history of reporting very warped version of this dispute. The above report is so twisted, it almost amount to a lie. The admins that have dealt with this before are: User:EdJohnston, User:Mark Arsten, User:BBb23 and User:Nick-D. EyeTruth (talk) 03:23, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Trivia: Gunbirddriver was able to get me blocked by reporting an extremely warped account of this dispute. Oh well, the admin later pointed out that he didn't dig in deep and apologized for the mistake (See my block log). Well, Gunbirddriver continued edit warring as usual and thus was blocked, so he has come back with a vengeance. His proficiency at miscoloring a situation scares me. Please talk to the other admins that have been involved, or dig into all the links he posted and look through their respective contexts. EyeTruth (talk) 03:29, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone's going to bother. VanIsaacWS Vex<sup style="margin-left:-7.0ex">contribs 03:26, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Wall of text is it, Vanisaac? Well, let me try to clarify the issues:

1) Editor EyeTruth is an editor with an unknown history. Under the current identifying name, his history goes back 6 months, but he admits below that he has edited on Wikipedia for well over five years.  I have edited on Wikipedia for almost three years, starting in October of 2010, and all my previous edits can be found, and all administrative actions can be seen as well.  This is not the case with EyeTruth.  We do not know his history, as he has chosen not to disclose it.

2) Editor EyeTruth has a history of deception with administrators. The deceptions include mischaracterizing talk page discussions, mischaracterizing other editors, moving warnings from his talk page to an archive, failing to disclose the move to editors involved in discipline measures, asking that the block administered by reduced under false pretext, and then mischaracterizing the whole event in an attempt to again attack my character.  I do not find this to be a helpful manner for an editor to be conducting oneself. Gunbirddriver (talk) 05:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I have to confess to not having read all of the above lengthy post in detail, but I'd like to address a couple of points on my actions:
 * I warned EyeTruth after he made this edit on 16 August: . I didn't think that a block was appropriate as the edit added material and was made in good faith as part of a strategy in which EyeTruth was inviting Gunbirddriver to edit and add to this material - it struck me as being an honest mistake rather than deliberate edit warring. EyeTruth's subsequent editing was better as it included attempts to acknowledge both sides of the dispute, and so wasn't edit warring given that it represented a shift in their earlier approach. The article history shows fairly productive too-and-fro editing between EyeTruth and  Gunbirddriver over the next few days, so there was no reason to block anyone or (I thought) fully protect the article. I blocked Gunbirddriver as their edit on 20 August  removed material which was under discussion on the talk page (where it had a reasonable amount of support), and seemed to have been a bad faith recurrence of the edit warring (especially given the misleading edit summary - I had suggested that both editors walk away from the article for a while several days before). I then fully protected the article to prevent any further edit warring - in retrospect I should have done this several days earlier, but I'm always reluctant to fully protect high-profile articles.
 * I was the main admin involved in responding to and I don't see any similarities between them and EyeTruth.
 * I'm not sure why this post has been made now - I instituted the block and protection over a week ago, and have deliberately taken a 'hands off' approach to the discussion on the talk page, which seems to now be well on track to resolving the content dispute - I've commented a few times to suggest ways to resolve the dispute, and I think that the resultant discussion is going well. Nick-D (talk) 04:00, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

The post is made now because I had been away for a week following the block, and then it did take a bit of time to try to pull together the various threads. The talk page discussion is not at issue. For the record, I would not mind the term "blitzkrieg" being used in the article, but I believe it would be better to place it in a discussion section at the end of the article rather than in the section attempting to describe the German plans. The main reason for this is because the term is vague and there are multiple understandings of its meanings. EyeTruth himself is forever telling the other editors that the problem is they do not have the right understanding of the term, thus making my case. In addition, the German’s never used the term, and German officers writing about the battle after the war who were well aware of the term did not use it in reference to this battle, when they did use it in reference to other battles.

Leaving EyeTruth aside for the time being, I believe the events that occurred and the order they occurred in were not good.

To review, Nick-D made a statement on Mark Arsten’s talk page here which ultimately would support EyeTruth’s position, i.e. insertion of the phrase into the article. EyeTruth then arrives at the talk page of Nick-D to request his assistance in resolving a dispute here, already knowing that he supporedt his preferred action.

EyeTruth then adds the same version back in, which Nick pointed out was not likely to help the situation here.
 * Your edit appears to belie what you've written above: you have re-inserted your preferred claim that "the operation envisioned a blitzkrieg" without noting alternate viewpoints.

Precisely so. What EyeTruth claims on administrator talk pages is not at all consistent with his interactions with other editors.

EyeTruth then inserts the phrase in again with a call to Nick D to watch the page. I remove the phrase, as we still are in discussion on the talk page. EyeTruth goes to Nick’s talk page again, Nick blocks me.

It does not seem right for an editor to be calling for an administrator to block another editor. I also do not understand why when moderating the talk page no time or attention has been given to curbing Eye Truth’s poor behavior. I do not understand why he is allowed to attack my character on an administrator's talk page with no effort made to check him, or to contact me so I have a chance to respond. I find it offensive for him to call me a liar, which he does over and over again. I also find it offensive when he accuses me of original research, yet no effort has been made by any administrator to curb his language.

For administrators to maintain the moral authority required to command respect, they must act in a manner that is even handed. They must avoid acting in an arbitrary manner. Blocks placed must not reflect favoritism. EyeTruth inserted the same term into the article in the midst of a discussion. He could have offered a version of rewording on the talk page, but he did not. He circumvented the process and added to the conflict. Reinserting the term where he did and how he did did not move the process forward. There is no explanation for Nick-D allowing EyeTruth to change the phrasing in the article to what he preferred and then block myself when I attempted to maintain the phrasing until the discussion had concluded on the talk page. This is not even handed. Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:31, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Everything was going so bloody well. GBD the non usage of blitzkrieg argument is still viable. The vote is 6 to 3 with over a week to go. I must say I feel some responsibility for proposing the vote, I did not realise you could not contribute at the time. It took 48 hrs to sink in that your silence was enforced. I really apologise for that. But. They are not the same person! Its bloody obvious. Look at the style of language, the radically different approaches. This baaabaa or whatever is not the same person. Ive looked at the language, style of argumentation, even the attempt to reach consensus is radically different. I sense you are pissed off because the recent block stopped you from contributing for a few days. Dont let it blind you. Please drop the stick. Drop it now. Its not too late. And EyeTruth, do not retaliate. I have tried to be a bridge in my modest way in the short period ive worked with you two. You may not have even noticed. I dont care. I have respect for you both as good eds. its only WP :) Irondome (talk) 05:03, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Everything is still going fine in terms of the discussion. Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:31, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The block stopped him from contributing for just a day and that was before the poll was even conceived. I do respect GDB's point of view. Irondome, you probably have noticed that I fully understand you guys' perspective on this issue, and even agree to its factualness to an extent, but I'm just working with WP's idea of notability. EyeTruth (talk) 14:39, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Suggestion Why dont we reset the vote, so you GBD can submit your own propsals? Its doable. And I am sure EyeTruth would agree. Wouldnt you Eyetruth? Thats a good way of proving you are not baabaa or whatever BTW, behaviourally. Lets just strike all this through. Hopefully not many eds have seen this yet, so we will all be saved from a show-up. can we do that Nick? Lets just get out this place. Cheers Irondome (talk) 05:56, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Naah. There is nothing to retaliate. There is also no need to reset the vote. This dispute has unnecessarily gone on for way too long. Adding another month to it is not palatable, at all. EyeTruth (talk) 14:39, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

A separate issue is the past history of EyeTruth. Whether or not he was previously the editor Blablaaa, he clearly has hidden his past, whatever it was. EyeTruth has reflected upon his personal history of previous editing of Wikipedia:
 * P.S. It was all subjective 5 years ago, and although the guidelines has tightened up since then, they are still open to the user's discernment. However, since the editors' consensus for this article is one wikilink per article, then I'll submit to it. (Anyways, I've been following the consensus ever since the last discussion). EyeTruth (talk) 07:26, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Here is Sturmvogel 66 being surprised to learn that EyeTruth was well familiar with Wiki editing techniques:
 * I beg your pardon, most editors with barely over 100 edits don't fully understand how to consolidate refs.

So clearly EyeTruth has a history of editing Wikipedia of at least five years duration, but the account name he currently is using only goes back to 19 February 2013, some six months. That should cause some pause.

In addition, there is clearly a history of deceptive behavior when dealing with administrators, as can be seen in his movement of warnings from his talk page to an archive, which subsequently convinced administrator Bbb23 that his block had been administered in error, when in fact as can be seen above in the collapsable section, it was not administered in error. Further, EyeTruth knew it had not been an error and did nothing to inform Bbb23 of that fact. A lie of omission is still a lie, and the earlier movement of the warnings onto his archive was most likely done for the purpose. He then went on to mischaracterize the event on Mark Arsten’s talk page here, portraying himself as some sort of victim. This behavior should not be given a pass. Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:31, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You are becoming too funny Gunbirddriver. FYI, my history with WP goes back far more than 5 years, so I do feel thoroughly underrated when you say it is just 5 years. And if you really didn't know about WP, or how to do very basic edits in it, five years ago... then I'm speechless! Also Bbb23 is not stupid. Stop thinking that your are the greatest genius that can comprehend anybody's mind. I gave Bbb23 links to every single thing related to this drama and he dug into it and came to his own conclusion. Your words are full of so much %#$@%&#%, I really don't want to give anymore comments. (BTW the censored text is nothing vulgar and it is not the four-letter word shit as some may insinuate). EyeTruth (talk) 16:16, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay EyeTruth, to clarify the deception seen in the sequence of events on the block issue, they were as follows:

Editor EyeTruth is warned by Administrator Ed Johnston on 3 July here, with warning
 * To avoid admin action, please don't restore that word until such time as you have consensus.

The warning was removed from the EyeTruth talk page by user EyeTruth on 7 July and placed in an archive here. EyeTruth was warned a second time by administrator Mark Arsten on 3 August here. After ignoring the previous warnings, EyeTruth was blocked by administrator Bbb23 on 5 August here.

When EyeTruth protested the block, Bbb23 appeared to become confused, commenting here:
 * I've reviewed what happened again, and I believe my block was misplaced, although not for any of the reasons you've mentioned here or in the unblock request on your talk page. The tipping reason for the block was your alleged failure to heed a warning from another administrator. However, now that I've reviewed the events, your last revert on the article was before the warning, not after. And the other administrator had declined to block either you or the other editor when evaluating the first report.

Here Bbb23 is clearly referring to Mark Arsten as the first administrator, who in response to EyeTruth’s complaint warned both EyeTruth and myself, though he declined to block either of us. In reality this was the second administrator warning EyeTruth. An earlier warning had been issued to EyeTruth on 3 July by EdJohnston here and here, where EdJohnston had said:
 * Currently you seem to have no support from other editors in your desire to use the word 'blitzkrieg' in this article. To avoid admin action, please don't restore that word until such time as you have consensus. Thank you.

If EdJohnston’s warning had remained on EyeTruth’s talk page Bbb23 would not have been confused. If the move had just been an incidental transfer of information from his talk page to an archive, EyeTruth had the opportunity to correct the misunderstanding in the mind of Bbb23, but instead responded thus:
 * It just felt so partial, and I was wondering if it was some planned and calculated move to help the other editor. I was just really curious. But it turned out to be a honest mistake. Apology accepted. Nothing else needed.

Later, he went on to mischaracterize the whole event:
 * Do you know that Gunbirddriver was able to get me blocked by reporting an extremely warped account of this dispute? Oh well, the admin later pointed out that he didn't dig in deep and apologized for the mistake (See my block log). His proficiency at miscoloring a situation scares me.

Indeed. Gunbirddriver (talk) 05:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * First off thanks Gunbirddriver for not telling me about this thread. Since you took the time to mention my name the least you could of done was let me know. Secondly, EyeTruth is not User:Blablaaa. I do agree with EyeTruth that the term should be used in the article and I've said so on the talk page. Things were being discussed and it was going well so I'm not sure why it was brought here. As for admin Nick-D I do agree with you Gun that Nick tends to favor certain editors with favortism. I've had my share of problems with Nick in the past and he was never fair to me and never fair to Blablaaa. If you feel your block was wrong then try to do something about it. In the past Nick was questioned over whether some of his blocks were correct.  Caden  cool  13:49, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, well that’s helpful, Caden. This complaint is not directed specifically at the discussion on the Battle of Kursk talk page, but is a more general complaint.  I filed it when I did because I had gone away for a week, and upon returning it took some time to attempt to pull the threads together.  I do not believe EyeTruth has been forthcoming in his interactions with administrators.  In addition, during the discussion on the talk page it was clear that EyeTruth had extensive experience on Wikipedia, much more than his six month history would support.  I do not believe the discussions he has been a party to have been conducted in an open and honest manner, and I believe this to be counterproductive to cooperative editing.  I have been attempting to determine the prior identity of this editor.  I take your word for it that he is not Blablaaa.  That means then that we have yet to learn the prior identity or identities.Gunbirddriver (talk) 05:25, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Gun. When I first posted here, I didnt take enough time to look at your evidence. I have since read all of your posts here and I checked all of the links you provided. I believe you may have a case. I'm not so sure anymore about EyeTruth. After reading all of your links it's possible that he could be Blablaaa. Or he could be another banned editor. I'm really not sure. One thing I'm sure of is that his behavior towards you was far from civil and I'm surprised no admin did anything about that. Another thing that must be looked at is how Nick-D handled things. He didnt handle it well. The block Nick gave you was a bad one. He blocks you but lets EyeTruth off the hook? Makes no sense and looks like favoritism.  Caden  cool  06:22, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "In the past Nick was questioned over whether some of his blocks were correct". Actually, only one of my blocks has been overturned as being a bad call, and that was the indefinite duration block I imposed on Blablaaa. He or she was later blocked for an indefinite period for basically the same reasons I blocked them. As the note on the top of my talk page says, I don't have any delusions of perfection as an admin (far from it in fact), but what you're trying to allude to here isn't correct. Nick-D (talk) 10:59, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes one of your bad blocks was correctly overturned by an admin that called you out on it but you were also questioned over others that were said to be also bad blocks. Blablaaa was NOT blocked for the reason you claim and you very well know he was male and not female. Come on Nick you should know better than that.  Caden  cool  11:16, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * According to their block log, Blablaaa was blocked for an indefinite period with the reason of "Disruptive editing" as a result of this entirely damning RfC into their conduct. This disruptive conduct was the same reason I blocked them several months earlier. Nick-D (talk) 11:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Gunbirddriver would have easily avoided a block if he hadn't rushed into editing right after Nick-D suggested that all editing should temporarily pause for some days. Also, summarily reverting an edit that had incorporated new points from the discussion and characterizing that action with a very misleading edit summary is what ticked off Nick-D (See Nick's post above). Normally, it would have ticked me off as well, but I'm already used to stuff like that from Gunbirddriver. Caden, you should see that edit summary. One of the most blatant lie I've seen in a while. EyeTruth (talk) 14:39, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The block was instituted after you essentially drew a red flag on Nick-D's talk page. The back and forth on the talk page seemed inappropritate to me.  How can an administrator be impartial if he is allowing an editor to carry on an ongoing chat, and then essentially take direction from him?  The edit summary I offered was accuarte, and the admonition was one you should have heeded.  If a term or phrase had proved to be contentious, as it had over the previous three months, what made you think adding it back in had suddenly become acceptable?  Further, if you were certain, as you claim, that the edit would be acceptable, why the heads up note on Nick's talk page at the time of the edit that you were changing the text again, followed by a second note telling him that darn Gunbirddriver had reverted it back?  You clearly anticipated being reverted.  That being so it would seem paramount to run the phrasing by the other editors engaged in the discussion before inserting what you claimed to be a neutral compromise back into the text.  Would it not have been better just to propose the change to the other editors, and leave Nick-D out of it?  As it was played out it appears to me as a heavy handed version of dispute resolution.  I did not have an administrator that I was using to back me up, and I do not think it would have been appropriate if I had.  As to what "ticked Nick off", you do not know that Nick was ticked off.  I would say he was not, but simply attempting to help resolve the conflict on the page.  It was the manner in which the information about what was going on was conveyed to him and the obvious plea for administrative action that I find objectionable.  The lion's share of responsibility falls upon EyeTruth.  Nick's share was in allowing himself to be used in this fashion.  Gunbirddriver (talk) 00:09, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * So what part of the "back and forth on the talk page" seemed inappropriate? The edit summary you offered is terribly misleading. And yes it ticked Nick off because he just explained above that it did tick him off. I gave Nick heads up because at that time you were the only editor that was still actively hell bent on not accepting a balanced solution: Sturmvogel, Binksternet, and every other person from the DRN (except Hasteur) already agreed to go with the balanced solution. And I NEVER pleaded for an administrative action from Nick-D. Show me where I pleaded for such. EyeTruth (talk) 01:04, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "So what part of the "back and forth on the talk page" seemed inappropriate"
 * All of it. You went to the administrator not to resolve conflict but to push your opinion. The mischaracterizations and feigned naivete was all a part of it. It was just another means to an end. This strikes me as inapporpriate. Gunbirddriver (talk) 16:53, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I was not at all "ticked off": this was a routine block made for continued edit warrig, and this article doesn't excite me all that much. I watchlisted the article after I agreed to help cool things down, and would have spotted this edit warring and responded without EyeTruth's note on my talk page. Nick-D (talk) 01:17, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps so, but with EyeTruth commenting there and you responding it gives an appearance of impropriety which should be avoided. Gunbirddriver (talk) 16:53, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't follow your logic at all, especially as my post was simply "Blocked, and I've fully protected the article for a week to provide time to hash out a solution to this matter". I also posted on the article was protected on its talk page. Admins who don't explain their actions aren't doing their job properly IMO, and it would have been bad form to have not responded to a post on my talk page by stating what the actions I'd taken were. Nick-D (talk) 23:14, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * In all fairness to Gunbirddriver, he didnt see Nick's edit until after it was to late. As for Nick being ticked off, that's just not acceptable. He's an admin so he's expected to do far better than that. I do believe Gunbirddriver was and is trying to do a good job as an editor on the Battle of Kursk. I dont agree with the block Nick gave him though.  Caden  cool  15:02, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I can't tell when he saw it, but the fact that he attempted to use a very misleading edit summary to miscolor the situation was pretty bad, but that alone may not warrant a block. And I do agree Gunbirddriver is trying to do a good job, but he also has a few lapses in his good job. I'm not against his block, neither do I support it, nor did I wish for it. EyeTruth (talk) 15:44, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Convienence section break

 * Eyetruth, please start making positive assertions showing the misstatements by Gunbirddriver instead of just saying "You are becoming too funny" as a euphamism for "You're full of ****". Also consider disengaging from this thread other administrators will look over the thread and ask questions of you if necessary. At this time, all I see is a very large boomerang that is in transit. Hasteur (talk) 13:07, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hasteur, I already spent so much "making positive assertions showing the misstatements by Gunbirddriver". Sorry, but I'm not wasting it again. I explicitly pointed out Ed Johnston's verdict to both Mark Arsten and Bbb23. They both know fully well about it. You should also look at the full verdict in WP:ANI. It was fully binding on how the DRN turns out, of which you clearly knew how it turned out as unresolved with a slight majority in favour of a "compromise". This drama has gone on for too many months, but this time around I just don't have enough spare-time to keep dragging myself through this quagmire anymore. Frankly, really don't. (Oh BTW, pls don't even start by insinuating that I said "You're full of ****". I didn't censor a four-letter word. So no, I didn't say "you're full of shit" nor was I even remotely implying that.) EyeTruth (talk) 13:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Why not just let us know what user names you used in your prior editing on Wikipedia?Gunbirddriver (talk) 05:25, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There is a link titled "user contribution". EyeTruth (talk) 01:04, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * P.S. If you want to see Gunbirddriver in action then see the Battle of Kursk talkpage and see our discussion on his talkpages. I would start posting them all here one by one if I still had that much time on my hand as before. You see stuff like "cover your mouth because it is disgusting when your food is flying out" or "kid now grow up" (maybe not exact wordings). And almost half of our convo is nothing but his attempts to twist the hell out my post, and me trying to figure out what the heck is going on. For example, I once stated that Dianna had pulled out from the drama and later Gunbirdriver came around and wrote that I claimed or suggested that Dianna conceded to the argument. Stuff like this just kept happening over and over again. Even in the essay he posted above certain things are presented out of the chronological order just to miscolor the whole situation. For example, while he is talking of stuff that happened in August, he throws that Sturmvogel and Binksternet also reverted my edits (which actually happened in early June) but he conveniently forgets to mention that both editors are now in support of a balanced solution to the dispute and have now advocated the inclusion of the term in carefully worded passage. The above essay he wrote has so many stuff like this, and I've shown his misstatements time and again in different venues over the past four months. But doing that all over again now is simply beyond the capacity of my schedule, as I don't have 2 or 3 days of constant editing to spare anytime soon. So before you digest just one side of the story take some time to look deeper or talk to others who have gotten closer to this drama. The only thing anyone could prematurely hold against me is my sometimes harsh language to Gunbirddriver; but the guy have sometimes used language harsher than anything I've used for him as well. BTW, "harsh language" doesn't include when I call him out on violating WP:V or WP:OR. Even Sturmvogel, Irondome and Howicus have very politely called him out on it. (But those mistakes were most likely made in good faith). EyeTruth (talk) 15:44, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Certainly I would be fine with any administrator reading through the discussion on the talk page. I think I was fairly constrained.  In contrast, I would not expect creating section titles such as Blunders in the article and The real discussion would be the best way to go about reaching out to the other editors and create a consensus. Gunbirddriver (talk) 05:25, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I noticed this discussion by chance; I should have been notified immediately that my name was mentioned. Eyetruth, you need to notify everyone above that you mentioned by name. You can use the template provided at the top of the page to do so. The reason I left the Battle of Kursk page was remarks by EyeTruth such as (directed at me) and  (directed at Gunbirddriver). These are examples of the toxic environment and time-wasting discord I encountered when I edited the page again briefly in June (I have edited/watchlisted on and off for over three years). During the period I was on the page, EyeTruth was at the root of the discord, in my opinion, not Gunbirddriver. -- Diannaa (talk) 02:25, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry for not notifying you. I only mentioned your name incidentally in an example. BTW Diannaa, your actions back then did look very sketchy. You kept claiming that the sources didn't say what was being attributed to them, even though that clearly wasn't true. Till today you still haven't clarified whether your claims were mistakes or intentional. Also, GBD did mess with WP:OR, or at least with WP:V, but of course those were likely done in good faith. EyeTruth (talk) 11:35, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * See, this is a good example of why I departed from the Battle of Kursk article. It's disheartening to be expected to defend my integrity every time I post an edit. Insinuating that I would falsify sources in an attempt to win an edit war is a personal attack, and I refused to stick around to be insulted in that manner. -- Diannaa (talk) 13:25, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Diannaa, don't expect a dude that can't even see or hear you to know what's in your mind. You need to clarify whether it was a mistake or intentional, else I won't know what to make of your actions back then. If you really expect me to just assume that you're a righteous angel, then I see nothing but arrogance. You shouldn't feel insulted if your claims were made in error. EyeTruth (talk) 14:27, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, no. We have a policy, you have no choice in the manner, you are to assume good faith unless you have explicit evidence to the contrary of which you need to lay out here.  I suggest you learn the policy quickly.--v/r - TP 19:30, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I do have something that could amount to explicit evidence, but whatever. I will assume all she did was 100% in good faith, and I will let bygones be bygones. EyeTruth (talk) 01:04, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * @Diannaa. I notified User:EdJohnston, User:Mark Arsten, and User:Bbb23.  Caden  cool  09:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have consistently supported GBD in terms of the present blitzkrieg discussion in terms of content. Till now I have not had any doubts as to the impartiality of involved eds. I did not look until recently at the long and often nasty discussions before I began to participate. ET, you obviously have loads of experience on WP. Your smooth navigation from procedures to technical skills admit that. I do not think you are baablaa, but you are a former ed. Lets just cklear the air here. It may wipe the slate so we can all move together constructively. GBDs theories have slightly poisoned the well, so clarity would be good. No way taking sides here. Just like to know where I stand re other eds. Cheers! Irondome (talk) 02:57, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * GBD is actually older than me on here as far as serious editing goes, so he should be proficient with "technical skills" and "smooth navigation" as well. Is it collapsible tables? Sturmvogel had to only use it once for me to learn it. Is it referencing and intext citing? WP has done all the explanation you would ever need such that you can never mess any of it up. If all fails, the sandbox is also there to practice. So I really don't see why he wouldn't know as much as I do on here. That is why what he's been saying lately actually makes me laugh out loud. I have edited on and off as ip as far as I can remember, at least for past 6 years and have even had tenminutemail accounts; one or two or three, I can't remember. I really usually don't keep track of online accounts unless I take the thing seriously, which I started for WP early this year and may be dropping it soon as I'm slowly getting too busy for it. EyeTruth (talk) 11:35, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It is not a question of editing skills. It is a question of operating on a level playing field.  My past activity is known.  Yours is not.  You should provide the previous user names and IPs. Then we can approach the discussion from an equal level of transparency. Gunbirddriver (talk) 00:15, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You should provide all the IPs you've used on Wikipedia before in your entire life, then we can have an equal ground here. EyeTruth (talk) 01:04, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. I have only edited as Gunbirddriver.  Oh, and Gunbirddriver2 for images.  Your turn. Gunbirddriver (talk) 16:53, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I suggest we drop it and close this down. It may be that ET has a long IP stalking, or whatever. I just do not think it is this baablaa person. I see discussion has resumed on our subject talk page. I think work done there would be far more profitable to everyone. Cheers Irondome (talk) 00:09, 7 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, it was a bad block, insomuch as it done with (quite appropriate) page protection. Since Gunbirddriver couldn't edit the protected page, it's hard to see the block as other than punitive. Since the standard for admin behavior is not perfect I'll simply suggest Nick-D not do that again. Folks concerned about the unfairness of the admin action: please see no justice.
 * Gunbirddriver and EyeTruth are being given an implicit message here which I'll make explicit: You've been going back and forth at each other for a week and not getting much response from the admin community -- while the community values ya'll spending your time contributing it's expected you figure out how to get along or use the available content dispute resolution mechanisms. (WP:DRR) There's just not going to be much interest in sorting through accusations ya'll throw at each other to declare a winner and a loser. The pattern I've observed in similar situations in the past is the eventually folks lose patience and both participations get sanctioned. NE Ent 15:10, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I am ready and willing to get along. However, the bar for “getting along” is being set rather high when the other editor involved, EyeTruth, is threatening to have me blocked, succeeding in having me blocked, hiding administrative actions taken against him on an archive, misrepresenting himself to multiple administrators, and keeping his extensive past history editing  Wikipedia hidden from all other editors.  It is an environment that does not readily lend itself to open interactions, dispute resolution and assumptions of good faith.  ‘No action taken’ will likely be perceived as a tacit approval of the behavior.  I have no means to correct it.  I merely present it to you as clearly as possible.Gunbirddriver (talk) 22:38, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Very slow but long-term disruption
I don't really know how best to handle this, but some admin action (or edit filters or other solutions) seems necessary. I first noticed this when deleting Siamese Twin Mental Disorder, written by User:J341933. It contained BLP violations against a person I'll not name (to avoid the intended purpose of coupling his name to diseases or other negative aspects on search engines). Looking at other pages created and deleted by the same editor, and looking at other instances of that BLP being named on Wikipedia, I noticed that this seems to be a case of on-wiki harassment of a BLP (and other BLPs related to his family) that has started at least as early as 2005.

J341933 created this page, which was first created in 2006 by User:Yairhaim. That first version was about the same family as the Siamese twins article deleted today, and contained nonsensical BLP violations like " Shortly later she gave birth to two sets of twins in 1968 but Mr. and Mrs. X only kept one child." J341933 also created Achael Drorim, which is about the same person as the Siamese article and about the same family X.

Another article, with this variant title, was created by an IP address in 2005. This seems likely to be the same person as User:Yairhaim, who created this page in 2006, about the same family as the Siamese twins article deleted today, and contained nonsensical BLP violations like " Shortly later she gave birth to two sets of twins in 1968 but Mr. and Mrs. X only kept one child." That page was recreated by J341933 as well.

The 2010 edits by User:X1041261m and User:027441205ha are also about the same issue, e.g. this page (created by both), where the second instance again has ridiculous "twin" assertions: see e.g. also this edit, and yet another variation of the same title. User:Yotvata is yet "another" editor from the same period involved in this (see his deleted contributions or something like this).

Perhaps this article, a thrice deleted article that was recently kept at AfD with no consensus, should get wome extra scrutiny witth this report in mind as well, but it may be that it turns out to be perfectly acceptable.

Perhaps someone here remembers the circumstances surrounding this user, who is clearly related to this mess and has already some sockpuppets, e.g. this cat and this cat. One of these created yet another variation of the same title, this one, which was deleted 6 times before being salted... This leads us to other users, like User:Wachovia, from 2005, but also to very new ones like User:Bitachonalim.

Sorry for the lengthy report, but I wanted to show the number of accounts involved, the long term abuse (it is too persistent and negative to be a prank IMO), and the number of articles they have created over the years (plus a fair number of other articles that were vandalized).

Any suggestions for the most efficient way to minimize their potential for further disruption? (Note: I have only notified the current user, all others have either been blocked or haven't edited here in years). Fram (talk) 12:49, 6 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This user left some rather strange shit on my talk page. I can't tell if they're intentionally trolling or incompetent, but they are most definitely not here to contribute positively. <font color="Blue">Ish <font color="Green">dar <font color="Red">ian  22:16, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Ishdarian, that diff was blatantly disturbing. I'm pretty sure it's a troll. 173.58.96.144 (talk) 04:02, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. I have blocked that editor indefinitely, and started Sockpuppet investigations/Douglaseivindhallgerber because I found at least one other sock of him, and he used many socks earlier, so there may well be sleepers and other undetected socks. Probably not much more that we can do, unless someone is willing to write an edit filter on the BLP name? Fram (talk) 07:21, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * All known socks blocked, and no further socks or sleepers found (as far as CU can determine). Will keep an eye on this, any help is still welcome. Fram (talk) 07:15, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Easy close. Who wants it?

 * Templates for discussion/Log/2013 August 26

TFD is pretty backlogged, and this one is super easy.

Also, I had this idea: NinjaKiwi has recently increased activity at their games exponentially by dividing all its registered players into clans, posting leaderboards, and awarding points and "medals" and such for the most active clans and players. Let's put all the admins into clans, have them compete for top closing tallies, and watch those backlogs disappear! Go team! <font face="Century Gothic" style="text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #999;font-size:12px"> Equazcion ( talk )  05:11, 9 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * It was the first time I have closed a TFD in a long time, so I don't know where to put any record-keeping templates (e.g. "this template was nominated for TfD on X date; see link here"). Could someone help me out please? <b style="color:navy;">NW</b> ( Talk ) 06:02, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I added the talk page tag. Thanks for the close, NW :) <font face="Century Gothic" style="text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #999;font-size:12px"> Equazcion ( talk )  06:11, 9 Sep 2013 (UTC)

Edit protected
Both the editprotected and editsemiprotected categories have active requests from August, and there are more than forty editsemiprotected requests. Please deny unfulfillable requests (or ping requesters) instead of letting them hang out for a month and a half. 2001:18E8:2:1020:A0B7:B544:704A:6325 (talk) 20:33, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

SPI backlog
Just a friendly notice that Sockpuppet investigations is becoming slightly backlogged with cases that require administration. At the time of this message, there are 11 open cases received CheckUser verification and 16 open cases are standard behavior cases and 9 cases that have already been dealt with and need housekeeping. Respectfully, Michaelzeng7 (talk) 02:03, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Template edit protection
Can we stop with this fucking bullshit fully edit protecting every template out there with more than about, I don't know, 500 transclusions? Iw-ref has been doing fine with semi since 2009. Why did it need to be sysop'ed now? — Lfdder (talk) 17:47, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Before we answer that, you need to explain why you're abusing User:Mark Arsten and why you completely failed to notify him about this thread. Nyttend (talk) 18:41, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Abusing Mark Arsten? ....what? Mark Arsten is not the "subject of the discussion"; I'm not obliged to notify him. That was an example. — Lfdder (talk) 18:47, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You come here with inflammatory language about protection issues and then use Mark's action as an example, and you don't think you have to notify him? To use your own term, bullshit.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:01, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter to me who did it this time. This issue is much more pervasive. — Lfdder (talk) 19:13, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Have you attempted to discuss the protection with any of the protecting admins? NE Ent 19:16, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Am I supposed to identify all the admins that have made dubious edit protections and go ask them all individually? This is the place to discuss admin actions. — Lfdder (talk) 19:23, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a place, not necessarily the place. I'd maybe ask a few what their thought processes are as a starting point. The policy at High-risk templates is rather vague and open-ended, so it might be useful to see how admins are currently interpreting it. Then I'd start a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:High-risk templates and/or WP:VPP, if you feel strongly about it. NE Ent 19:36, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, see all the comments here. — Lfdder (talk) 19:32, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * While I entirely agree that 's approach to starting this discussion was inappropriate, I also agree that there has been a widespread full protection of templates that "may" not have needed to be fully protected. I suggest that  have a read of WP:CALM, and lets discuss this like mature adults (even if not everyone here is an adult, as that is not an excuse not to act like one in a forum such as this). I personally would have opened such a discussion as an WP:RfC on the appropriate forum to get a community consensus instead of coming to this toxic wonderful AN forum, and I certainly wouldn't have come here shout vulgarity and bitching / complaining in such a manner, but to each's own I suppose. Technical 13 (talk) 19:36, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, first things first, I'm all for establishing exact numbers about how many transclusions merit semi or full protection. I'd strongly support getting a less vague guideline on the issue for starters. But, in this case, Iw-ref has over 13,000 transclusions, so I think that it qualifies as "high risk" in pretty much any definition, right? Mark Arsten (talk) 00:07, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's never been hacked or vandalized and a non-admin successfully edited without harm [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AIw-ref&diff=297028294&oldid=294182156]. I'd call that low risk. Can anyone provide a diff of a template being hacked recently? NE Ent 00:15, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Particularly now that there are WP:BEANS all over the place. Resolute 19:49, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If we're to go by the philosophy that prevention is better than having to cure, we might as well full-protect everything on the wiki. But we don't, because we don't. Full-protection is more akin to a pound of prevention, and the general wiki/wikipedia philosophy is to prevent only when demonstrably necessary. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;"> equazcion <small style="font-size:75%">( talk ) 19:55, 9 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * I've personally found the increase of protection on Template:AFC submission and Template:AFC submission/declined to be quite annoying where I am unaware of those templates being hacked. Since there are no admins specifically as part of the WP:AFCH project, it can take quite some time to get changes to these templates enacted... Technical 13 (talk) 00:56, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Let me start by saying that the current system, as I've witnessed it, seems to be the best plan in my opinion. In my experience, the default is full protection for heavily-used templates (although of course we have no definition of what makes a template heavily used or not), but we've generally been open to unprotecting or reducing protection when there's good reason.  For example, see the logs for NRHP date for lists/dates: this is definitely a heavily used template, but I unprotected it with permission from the protecting admin because it was a regularly-updated template and because a non-admin was doing most of the updating — in short, the protection was causing problems, because it was definitely not a good idea to require someone to file an editprotected request every week.  If you know of a template at which protection is causing more problems than it prevents, you should ask the protecting admin to unprotect, or file a request at the bottom of WP:RFPP, but remember (1) this generally isn't applicable unless the template needs to be changed often, since you could always make an editprotected request; and (2) template vandalism can be quite insidious, especially because nobody thinks to check obscure subpages.  For an example, see the second section of Village pump (technical)/Archive 69.  Nyttend (talk) 02:19, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Speaking for myself, if, in my wiki Brownian walks, I stumble upon a template that could use tweaking, if it's unprotected I'll fix it if not I'll go find something else to do. So if ya'll want to add template work to the list of things only admins can do ... NE Ent 02:30, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * As a template guy I agree with Technical 13 and NE Ent. I've been noticing full protection much more often now. To put yourselves in your template coders' shoes for a moment, imagine if the articles you tend to edit required a talk page posting and explanation every time you had an idea for a good tweak; you'd be far less likely to contribute your skills quite as often. Traditionally full protection was reserved for the "top 1%", so to speak, of heavy-use templates -- ie. it was rare. It was actually further reserved for low-level technical templates that were generally transcluded several layers deep and weren't broadly watched, and could therefore do extensive damage easily without immediate notice. I don't think it's all that necessary for most of the actual displayed article tags, save for the very very top used ones. Templates (even heavily-used ones) should continue to benefit from crowdsourcing the same as other content. PS. We could resolve this easily by creating a new non-admin rights group for template coders (just for editing full-protected templates, while others would be editable by everyone) if the community would be amenable to that. <font face="Century Gothic" style="text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #999;font-size:12px"> Equazcion ( talk )  06:07, 9 Sep 2013 (UTC)


 * Lfdder, I agree with the users above: your use of inflammatory language and attacks negates any legitimate points you otherwise raise in your comments. That, combined with the fact that you completely failed to notify the involved admin of this discussion, or even attempt to discuss this directly with him, makes you look even worse. Looking through Special:WhatLinksHere, I can find at least 5000 mainspace transclusions, mostly on BLP-related articles, and I'm still counting. Also, the template itself states that it's deprecated, so why would you like to edit it? I see no reason to dispute Mark Arsten's full-protection. Lfdder, even though we see your frustration (you are a frequent template editor), you need to calm down your tempers before taking the issue to a noticeboard. And I'm not saying all this just because I reverted one of your edits yesterday. Hey  mid  (contribs) 05:33, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The bandwagon's in town. — Lfdder (talk) 09:07, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * A change that would've fixed Nastaliq is 3 days in the queue. This system just isn't working, is it? — Lfdder (talk) 09:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Usually it shouldn't take more than a couple of days before an administrator responds to an edit request. However, in this case, it appears that there is indeed dispute over your proposed edit, which I believe is why no administrator has made a decision yet. Sometimes, dispute resolution needs more than just a couple of days. Hey  mid  (contribs) 14:43, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * A couple of days is too long. Where is this dispute? Not that it matters; it took two days to get a response in the first place. — Lfdder (talk) 14:45, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

As one of the people who is marginally involved in the maintaining templates, my idealized formula for determining preventative full protection is somewhere in the range of "If transclusions > 10000 and count of changes needing to be undone in a 1 week period > 3 => full-protect; Else semi-protect". I petitioned recently to get the locked down because we had a few editors somehow go on a spree of putting their own thoughts in to a heavily transcluded template. My personal viewpoint is anything that would take the backend wiki-database to spend more than ~5 hours to do the re-evaluation is enough to warrant the preventative protection. Hasteur (talk) 14:08, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, we've have chosen to decide who can edit templates by choosing from the (IP, unconfirmed, confirmed, admin) set. Given the potential pain of a bad edit to a high transclusion template, I understand why we don't want the extremely low hurdle of "confirmed". One can be pretty close to clueless about templates and be confirmed. The additional challenge is that admin is too high, it just isn't right. It means I can edit such a template. I have played with templates a bit, but I am very much the newbie. I was sweating bullets the other day when I edited a template with maybe a few hundred transclusions. The "only" rational for the admin hurdle is that I hopefully have enough clue to realize the impact, and check with someone who does have a clue.


 * Dare I suggest a new user right?(Edit: It occurs to me I do not know whether this would be feasible. Can one condition edit rights on name space?) I know we propose these at the drop of a hat, but the right editors to be editing templates are editors like Hasteur and Technical 13, not the average confirmed user. (I could even support that admins would not get it automatically. I don't think I should have it.)-- SPhilbrick (Talk)  14:30, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * As I suggested above, I think a new non-admin user rights group just for editing full-protected templates is all we really need. Restricting template editing across the board to a new rights group would a be much more major change, and is not likely to gain acceptance right now. <font face="Century Gothic" style="text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #999;font-size:12px"> Equazcion ( talk )  14:34, 9 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * Equazcion, oops sorry I missed your suggestion above. In an attempt to turn a blunder into a positive, this means two independent suggestions were made, not simply one and a "me, too" :)-- SPhilbrick  (Talk)  15:02, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Still at the mercy of sysops then. I see that you're already making ground; my nick's been left out of the editors in this discussion that might get this right, even though I've been doing little else other than fixing up templates lately. — Lfdder (talk) 14:40, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Part of why you weren't listed in the editors for whom it makes sense to have this right is (IMO) because your temperment is not the right for the extra privileges afforded being able to edit through full protection. As evidenced in this thread and WP:ANI your method in attempting to get annother volunteer to do something is significantly lacking in clue. Hasteur (talk) 14:55, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * My temperament? Just because I swear doesn't mean I'm temperamental. What a load of bollocks. — Lfdder (talk) 15:19, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I look forward to another WP:RfC on this topic... The last one closed as no consensus just under four months ago. Technical 13 (talk) 15:00, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't read every single oppose, but most raised issues relating to article (as opposed to templates). User:Beeblebrox made a strong case in opposition, and, as noted by the number of "per Beeblebrox" follow-on opposes, his opinion carried weight. Note that his strong oppose carried within it the possibility that templates should be a special case: If there is evidence that there is a specific problem with backlogs of requests to edit fully protected templates I would prefer some sort of solution that was technically limited to an the template namespace but as of yet I have not seen evidence that such a problem exists in any namespace. In addition, at least one oppose, by Manning Bartlett specifically noted the possibility t hat templates should be considered separately. (and of course, many of the supports cited template issues).


 * I see that there was an alternate proposal for PC2, specifically covering the template issue, but PC2 is not the same as a template edit user right, it is the use of an existing mechanism to try to accomplish something similar. Being qualified for PC2 is not simply not the same as being competent to edit templates, it is close to orthogonal. Many of our fine prose editors and admins ought not to be touching highly used templates. In contract, we have highly technical editors who should be allowed to, yet may not be close to having the wide range of experience need to pass RfA.


 * I do note that the prior RfC went down in flames, but I think that it might go differently for a user right for template editors.-- SPhilbrick (Talk)  15:25, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll also note the Trappist RfA, initiated specifically to edit templates. While I appreciate the general argument (if we trust them to do X, we should trust them to do Y, so let's approve admin or not), I think a good case can be made that template expertise is a very different animal. Editors can fail an RfA because they aren't active enough in AfD. Fair enough, but what if an editor wants to work on templates? We don't require general expertise to operate a bot, we ask for bot specific expertise, so many bot operators are not admins, and many admins are not allowed to run a bot. The technical expertise to understand the ramifications of a template edit are far closer to the concept of bot expertise, than they are to the admin skill set. Maybe Trappist will become an admin, but it is a close call at the moment, and it would be a travesty if the editor's interest in improving templates were stymied because the editor hasn't the set of experience relevant to getting the block and delete buttons.-- SPhilbrick (Talk)  16:30, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hopefully the next RFC on the topic is narrowly focused on the editing protected templates issue. Perhaps a proposal to allow PC2, ONLY in template space, and only on templates that would otherwise have been fully protected on high visibility grounds. The main reason we protected them is to defend against vandalism, not to protect against misguided but good faith edits. Thus we would only be concerned with the trust aspect of the reviewer right, not competence. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  17:01, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed, Monty. Let's do it (the RfC). <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;"> equazcion <small style="font-size:75%">( talk ) 17:03, 9 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * Show me the link to sign up. ;) Technical 13 (talk) 18:42, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think I've been starting too many RFCs recently, I'm gonna leave it for someone else. Though would be happy to comment on a draft if requested.  Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  19:36, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I just noticed this discussion and I have to say I have very strong feelings about this as well. There are very few templates out there I cannot edit and I find it extremely annoying that I have to do all the work and then ask an admin, often who wouldn't even know if the coding was correct, to apply the changes. That has gotten me to the point I will not do any of the coding for a protected template anymore. If I find a problem I just submit an edit request and let them deal with it. If I cannot be trusted to implement the change, I shouldn't be trusted (or expected) to do the work. It is extremely frustrating. I would also add that the higher the visibility of the template, the less likley vandalism will last long. For example, if someone were to vandalize Template:WikiProject United States or any number of others it would be reverted in seconds. We simply do not need anything higher than semi protection on most templates. Kumioko (talk) 20:10, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Kumioko, I say this with all respect, but get over it. Your repeated verses of "If I'm not trusted with all the tools, I should be kicked out"/anti-admin/"I was mugged by a conspiracy" are getting old. Your supposition that vandalism to a template would get quickly noticed and reverted does not deal with the initial problem that the protection was put in place.  If a user does (accidentally or intentionally) modify a high visibility template, that change puts a significant load on the back end page generation servers in that the template has to be re-evaluated and will not show consistent results to what the base template looks like until the refresh has completed.  Take into account then the efforts of the reverter, which adds another re-evaluation to the stack and more effort.  I would think you'd prefer to have fewer changes that require undoing (and subsequently fewer inconsistent pages) than submitting great update requests and causing a great backlog on the page rendering. Hasteur (talk) 20:35, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but I know you haev no respect for me or my editing so you need not hide your contempt from me. And frankly, I don't care if people are tired of hearing about it. Don't like it, tough shit, not my problem. I'm trying to help build an encyclopedia not worry about hurting the feelings of a few editors who want to keep me out of their little club. Your right though, it does put some load on the servers but just like we don't need to worry about edit loads, we don't need to worry about that. Visual Editor puts a lot of load on the servers too and were stuck with that piece of crap. There isn't any proof that fully protecting hundreds of high use templates prevents any harm. In fact, given that I could point to several templates that need to be edited but haven't been because they are protected, the evidence suggests the opposite. That full protection prevents needed edits from being done. The alternatives would be to promote some of us to admins so we can pitch in or make a new role for template editor. None of which will pass because....honestly...because it would be a loss of control on the part of the admins. Kumioko (talk) 20:51, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I've also started a "few" WP:RfCs lately myself..., I'd say the honor is probably yours... :) Technical 13 (talk) 20:21, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * With my fan club if I started it they would vote it down just because I submitted it!:-/ Kumioko (talk) 20:34, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Please remember WP:AGF. Thank you. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:59, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think Kumioko was making more of a lighthearted self-deprecating remark there, Bushranger. I'll maybe get an RfC draft started soon, although I'm not calling dibbs, in case anyone else feels motivated to start something first. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;"> equazcion <small style="font-size:75%">( talk ) 23:07, 9 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * True, but I was referring more to the comment just above the outdent. - The Bushranger One ping only 09:57, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Your both right, I was making a self deprecating comment/joke and I was inferring that the community/admin process needs to make more use of the AGF guidelines. If an editor has been here for 6+ years and has 450, 000 edits, then its unlikely to the extreme they are going to start vandalizing pages. On the other hand, once a person is an admin they can pretty much do anything they want and the process says that it requires an Arbitration hearing to remove the tools. So that process works? No, it does not. Kumioko (talk) 13:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * RFC started please see Village pump (proposals). Could somebody add this to cent? That template is semi'd so I can't do it. Thanks. 64.40.54.181 (talk) 03:19, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I would rather there have been a draft posted somewhere for our review before it was put to the community. This one is very scant on rationale (it has none, actually) and only poses a single yes-or-no question, when a full RfC could've listed a couple of possible eventualities. I appreciate you wanting to move forward quickly, but please consider withdrawing this so we can put together something that has a better chance. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;"> equazcion <small style="font-size:75%">( talk ) 05:36, 10 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * , could you elaborate on your comment at proposals, regarding a possible non-userright solution? I'm working on an RfC draft that might include more than one option. Thanks. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;"> equazcion <small style="font-size:75%">( talk ) 06:04, 10 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * I started Requests for comment/Template editor userright. Feel free to add/tweak, discuss via its talk page, or just watch its development. With the Village Pump proposal already existing, I'm thinking the two can be merged when ready. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;"> equazcion <small style="font-size:75%">( talk ) 07:31, 10 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. It is premature, and a premature RfC will almost certainly go down in flames, which may taint subsequent ones. For example, there is a possibility that PC2 limited to Template space for designated templates may work, but it would be smart to have a little discussion about that before launching an RfC. In addition, someone noted the lack of specificity as to what constitutes high volume templates, so it might be smart to include that specification in the discussion. As another point, if it is to be a new user right, as opposed to using PC2, I'd like some feedback from the developers or other knowledgable parties about how difficult that is.-- SPhilbrick (Talk)  13:23, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If anyone knows of any devs they can contact for a general feasibility assessment of the current proposal, that would definitely be helpful. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;"> equazcion <small style="font-size:75%">( talk ) 13:29, 10 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * Folks as much as we may all agree that this is a good thing, we are all being naive to think it will actually pass. There are simply too many people that want to keep the status quo. If they start breaking tools out of the admin set then the admin power shifts and regular editors start to be able to do things for themselves. Of course they will phrase it into an issue of trust or some silly thing but the bottom line is, they will not be able to hold it over our heads and they will not be able to hold editors hostage anymore. I know I'm, throwing AGF out the window with that statement but from my experiences dealing with many many admins over the years (some are really good and some should have never been promoted) there are a lot that do not want things to change and will not allow it. Since the admins have a significant chunk of the experienced editor population the only way for this type of thing to succeed is for a bunch of them to agree to this or something like this. Its just not going to happen. Kumioko (talk) 14:04, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I would've agreed with you before I started watching Requests for adminship/Trappist the monk. It is the only reason I decided to start the RfC. Everyone on all sides of the debate, admin and otherwise, appear to predominately wish for something like this. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;"> equazcion <small style="font-size:75%">( talk ) 14:08, 10 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * I know I sound unnecessarily pessimistic but my skepticism is based not on contempt of the process alone but on repeated historical observation. Earlier this year Dank championed a very well thought out and articulated RFC to make several improvements to the RFA process. Even after significant support and an exhaustive collaboration it failed as have nearly every other (with the exception of only a select few like Rollbacker and Filemover). Just look at the comments made, many of the comments in that RFC state both directly and indirectly at a perception of a loss of power. I personally hope this passes and intend to support it but I have the feeling this will end the same as the others in the past because too many have a vested interest in keeping the status quo. Those who perceive they have power want to keep it and no matter the net benefit to the project, they will prevent this from passing. Kumioko (talk) 19:13, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Could you link to that RFC? I'd be interested in having a skim. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;"> equazcion <small style="font-size:75%">( talk ) 19:30, 10 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah its a monster though, Requests for adminship/2013 RfC. It was in three phases. There are also a lot of discussion about it in the archives of WP:RFA starting about archive 118 or 119 and going to about 223 as well as Dank's talk page archives. Kumioko (talk) 19:43, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Wow that's a doozy. When I have a free couple of weeks I'll wade through it :) <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;"> equazcion <small style="font-size:75%">( talk ) 20:15, 10 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * And that's just one, there have been several such RFC's regarding RFA reform's which eludes to my skepticism of this noble task. The community isn't very accepting of change. I am hoping for the best but expecting the status quo. Kumioko (talk) 20:18, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Bot use by blocked users
Please see this edit:, and discussions at User talk:Citation bot/Archive1 and Wikipedia talk:Bot Approvals Group. An editor who is currently in the middle of a three-month block appears to have (indirectly) edited a page that was involved in the reasons for the block. The edit was actually carried out by a bot, rather than by direct editing by the blocked person. The edit was also an entirely benign one, from a content perspective. However, it seems to me to have been, arguably, block evasion nevertheless, although I recognize that different editors might interpret the action in different ways. What do administrators think about the situation? (I'm going to notify the blocking admin.) --Tryptofish (talk) 17:20, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If I understand the situation, anyone, blocked or not, can cause the bot to check a certain page. That person has no control over what the bot does there, the bot will do what its programmed to do, and the only input from the person is to send it to run on said page. If that is the case, I think its harmless, if practical, it would be better if it stopped blocked users from triggering it, but its minor concern, and I think it can be fully dealt with at WT:BAG or another BAG page. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  17:28, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * A decision to select and use a particular bot, knowing what that particular bot will do sounds like editing to me. Maybe not clearly enough to smack someone over, but nevertheless editing.  Doing it on the article where they were involved in a  conflict on adds to that. North8000 (talk) 17:49, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a...minor edit. Why do we care who told the bot to do it?  I see no reason to suggest that Viriditas was able to issue instructions to the bot (i.e. able to control its actions), and there's no possible way in which problems can arise based on who told the bot to run this task.  Blocks are levied to prevent disruption, and the only disruption that's resulted here is by those who are trying to prevent Wikipedia from being improved through edits like this.  Nyttend (talk) 18:14, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Nyttend, with respect to what I am "trying" to do, you may want to revise that. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:21, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Why? You are trying to prevent someone from doing something that only improves the encyclopedia.  Nyttend (talk) 23:29, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * We don't normally say that blocked editors are permitted to make minor edits, or noncontroversial edits, or edits that are deemed to improve Wikipedia. I think it's reasonable to examine whether bot edits fall into a different category, because the editor has limited control over what the bot ends up doing, or whether bot edits are essentially comparable. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:26, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It's clearly block evasion performed in a roundabout means. I think that the block timer should be reset to 3 months from the time of the edit.&mdash;Kww(talk) 18:34, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * How do you know who it was? Apperently the bot doesn't verify the username you put in at, so we don't actually know who triggered it. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  18:37, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's a further complication. It's possible that someone else could use this as a way of impersonating a blocked user. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:45, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * (ecx2)Personally I think its perfectly fine but this precedent has already been set so its really out of our control. Rich F was blocked for using automation because they considered the use of excel and offline tools to be automation. So the rules are pretty clear, if that was considered automation in his case then this, absolutely is also and is a violation of the ban/block. Further, if this bot allows blocked users to use it then the bot logic needs to be updated to not allow blocked users use of the bot or the bot should be stopped. Also, under the current rules it doesn't matter if its a minor rule, its basically socking and block evasion. He is blocked/banned and using another account, to make edits. If we don't like it, then we need to change the policy, but policy is clear here. Also, unless we haev some evidence to prove otherwise, we should assume it is the user. Kumioko (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This is one of the most absurd discussions I've seen on here. Even if a blocked user (as  said above, unverifiable that said user triggered it) triggered a bot over which they have no control of what the bot does I don't see how that could be construed as block evasion.  In fact, I would argue that knowing that they have no control over the actual content of the bot's edit, the fact that they triggered the bot to clean up an article is a show of good faith (I mean, we are suppose to AGF, right?) and they shouldn't be admonished and punitively punished for this. Technical 13 (talk) 19:07, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm all in favor of AGF where appropriate, but calling this discussion "absurd" does not seem to display much of that. I think Kumioko raised a significant point about the ArbCom precedent. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I would like to think that's true, unfortunately history shows otherwise. When I got fed up and left I made some edits as an IP. Some insisted that was socking...so I created a new account in the hopes of a clean start...apparently that is socking...so all I could do was use the same account (or a variation at least). Kinda the same thing here. The user knows they are blocked/banned and willifully used another means of editing. Call it a sock or not, but the result is the same, they used an account other than the one that they have, which is curently blocked. Personally I thnk we need to modify the policy to allow this, even if we specify this bot specifically, but that will never happen. because WP is incapable of doing that sort of meaningful change. So we are stuck with a one size fits all policy that will not allow this type of editing. Wiht that said, you are correct that we don't know for sure its the user. However, I think its very likely that it was. Its the same sort of stupid practice that caused Rich F to get baneed for a year, our own bullheadish incompetent and inflexible policies. But they are what they are and this one is clear. Kumioko (talk) 19:15, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


 * A blocked/banned editor should not be making even harmless edits. Any bot which asks editors to type in their name is just begging for malicious "false flag operations" to get some blocked editor in bigger trouble. It would not be appropriate or fair to extend a block because of an edit which cannot be linked to the banned editor (unless the editor admits editing by invoking the bot). But asking the editor if he did it, then extending the block if he says yes, does not seem like a sensible practice, since it provides a benefit for those who lie and punishes those who are truthful. If there really no technological to have the bot page record who edited it to cause the bot to operate?   If not, then perhaps they should remove the unverifiable data about which editor invoked the bot. Edison (talk) 19:34, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In all fairness your absolutely right, but again that brings up a bigger problems. Do we allow the bot to be used by anyone, including blocked users or users who would try and get another user into troubel, or do we require the bot op to fix it. I think the latter would be the most responsible thing to do but I'm not sure if that's possible. Again though our personal feelings are irrelevant. We are stuck with a bad policy and it states clearly that this is socking, block evasion or both. Kumioko (talk) 19:52, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * One thing to keep in mind about the "arbcom precedent" that Kumioko brings up is that Rich wasn't blocked simply for using Excel and offline tools. He was blocked because his use of such created errors and piles of junk that he blindly inserted into articles and left for others to clean up.  People who like to complain about Rich's ban tend to disingenuously forget that part of it.  As to the active question here - I'd think telling a bot to go forth and edit is no different than using something like AWB or twinkle.  And since you can't use the latter while blocked, nor should you use the former.  Practically, however, without knowing for certain who makes such a command, there's nothing that could be done. Resolute 22:10, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Citation bot does not check the username at all. I started it as an experiment on Progeria and put in a username, User:Aswcdevfr, that is not registered to see what it would do. It processed the request and made edits to the article. A blocked/banned user should not be making any edits to article even through a bot like this, but in this case we do not know who made the edits for sure and should not do anything to the editor. The BOT should be looked at though as to how it works to see if this can be corrected. GB fan 20:18, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * At this point in the discussion, I'm pretty much convinced that Edison and GB fan are correct. Edits of this sort are improper evasions of blocks, and the editors who have argued otherwise here are incorrect. It's no different than a blocked user creating a sock account, or editing as an IP, and making helpful noncontroversial edits. However, there is such a large risk of a "false flag" in this situation that I cannot in good conscience support any sanctions. We need to find out whether it is technically possible to set the bot to reject requests from blocked accounts (or set the bot to determine and enter the name of the requesting account automatically, or set the blocking software to extend to blocking submissions to bot activation pages), and to make that the default for all bots. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:17, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I asked at Wikipedia talk:Bot Approvals Group, and the answer is that it's technically feasible to set bots to reject requests from blocked accounts, but impractical to do the things that I suggested above in parentheses. However, it's enough of an undertaking that there would have to be a clear consensus that the community wants it to be done. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:43, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It is very possible to allow me to input someone else's username into the bot and it run. This should be fixed. As of now, since there is no guarantee the blocked user made the edit, no action can be taken. I recommend the bot be shut down until such time this impersonation cannot take place. ~ Charmlet -talk- 21:55, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Unless the bot is causing harm, I think that would be something of an overreaction. Resolute 22:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think I agree. I think what is important now is fixing how bot software works. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:17, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The bot allowed me to input User:Howicus' username and it made the edit. As far as we all know, Howicus made the edit (request). Thus, it is impersonation, and is inherently harmful. Either include a verification (maybe have someone create a page in their userspace at User:Example/citationbot/run with the page name, and that's the verification), or disable the inclusion of who made the request. ~ Charmlet -talk- 22:18, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm in favor of just not asking who's operating it anymore. I never saw a need for it. Jackmcbarn (talk) 22:35, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I disagree with that. It allows block evasion, by just pretending that it doesn't happen. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:53, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think of that as block evasion much more than purging a page while blocked is block evasion. Jackmcbarn (talk) 23:05, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that once we go down that road, then making a minor edit from another account while blocked isn't block evasion either, and I don't accept that as being a good idea. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In fact, purging doesn't really edit a page. It just makes sure that the most recent edits are displayed. Bot edits, in contrast, are edits. If, for discussion's sake, we temporarily assume that the editor requesting this bot edit really was the editor whose username appears in the edit summary, then this is a situation in which the blocking administrator had determined that this editor should not, for a period of time, be making edits to that particular page. We really need to change the way bots respond to requests, whether or not the username of the requesting editor is displayed in the edit summary. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:19, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * [ec between 23:12 and 23:19] In one way, you're correct. That's why WP:EVADE says that we shouldn't remove helpful things like spelling fixes when they're performed by banned socks, and the same is true of telling a bot to check a page to see if it's eligible for a pre-approved fix.  If WoW or JarlaxleArtemis decide that they'd like to tell the bot to improve pages, it won't cause problems to those pages, it won't inspire disruptive editing by other people, and it won't enable them to move pages to "Citation bot on wheels!" or "HAGGER bot".  Blocks may not be used as punishment; per WP:BLOCK, we impose them to prevent damage and deter similar damage.  Nothing is damaged when a page is improved in this manner, but this encyclopedia is disrupted when people use the letter of policy in a way contrary to its purposes.  Nyttend (talk) 23:29, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It is not "disruption" to insist that blocked users cannot edit, that is, that they cannot make changes to the encyclopedia. Blocked means no editing,  period . That's neither hyperbole or being overly "bureaucratic", that's just basic policy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:42, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Isn't this basically just asking someone to make an obvious fix and them making it? Such edits are allowed. We don't extend blocks for editors making such requests.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 03:37, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it's not the same, because in that case the editor who makes the change has to be willing to take the responsibility for the edit upon themselves.  Bots can't take responsibility, so any change that comes about is solely the responsibility of the editor asking for the change, and since a blocked editor cannot make edits, they also cannot take responsibility for edits. Blocked is blocked, they should go do something else. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:08, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The policy isn't about taking responsibility. It simply means that the one making the edit is making an appropriate edit for reasons that are independent of having been asked to do it. Here the bot is making an obviously appropriate edit and would not make said edit unless the bot's programming determined independently that it was an appropriate edit to make. The bigger concern you should have is that any editor can apparently do this without it being possible to find out who is actually responsible unless that person tells you.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 04:39, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually: "Edits by and on behalf of blocked editors Anyone is free to revert any edits made in defiance of a block, without giving any further reason and without regard to the three-revert rule. This does not mean that edits must be reverted just because they were made by a blocked editor (obviously helpful changes, such as fixing typos or undoing vandalism, can be allowed to stand), but the presumption in ambiguous cases should be to revert. Wikipedians in turn are not permitted to post or edit material at the direction of a blocked editor (sometimes called proxy editing or proxying) unless they can show that the changes are either verifiable or productive and they have independent reasons for making such edits."Being able to justify the proxy edits one makes is indeed taking responsibility for them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:30, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * One further point, although "obviously helpful edits, such as fixing typos or undoing vandalism may be allowed to stand", that is a judgment about the edit, and not about the action of the editor. Even "obviously helpful edits" made by a blocked editor in defiance of a block constitute block evasion, and should result in the same consequences, i.e. resetting of the block clock. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:34, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * [double ec] Precisely. Some of us are here to build an encyclopedia, and the primary purpose of this website is not to stick it to blocked people.  We block people because their editing patterns have demonstrated that we can't trust them to edit generally in a productive manner.  Our blocking policy is one way of ensuring that the encyclopedia is improved, and when you use the blocking policy to suppress helpful edits of this sort, the blocked user is doing more to help the encyclopedia than you are.  Unless someone's put this username in as a hoax, Viriditas has found a way in which he can contribute in a way that unambiguously helps the project without causing the problems that led to his block.  No problem can possibly arise from this kind of thing, except for the time wasted by people who care more about the blocking policy than about improving the encyclopedia — and he's not to blame for that.  Nyttend (talk) 05:41, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There are many blocked editors who contributed productively to the encyclopedia before they were blocked, but they were blocked because of their behavior, which was, in some way disruptive and made it more difficult for the rest of us to edit productively. Their behavior brought on the block, and the result was they cannot edit.  That's the bottom line: if you're blocked you cannot edit.  Blocked editors who have productive edits to make to help the encyclopedia can make those edits once their blocks are lifted or run out - there's no hurry and no deadline.  Your interpretation of policy is unusual to say the least, and I would suggest that if you are interested in changing our policy about blocked editors not being allowed to edit, positively or not, you start up a policy change discussion on WP:VPP.  In the meantime, though, blocked means not being allowed to edit, period, no exceptions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:43, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey, I happen to have User:Viriditas's talk page on my watchlist, so I saw that the user requested passing on the following message to this thread:

"I was logged in and browsing the March Against Monsanto page yesterday when I noticed a new link in the left pane under my 'Toolbox' menu that I never saw before called 'Expand citations'. Curious about what this link actually does, I clicked through it and noticed that it allowed me to use the citation bot while blocked. This was an unintentional mistake and I have no intention of doing it again.  Viriditas (talk) 03:29, 10 September 2013 (UTC)"
 * Just passing this on... Sailsbystars (talk) 06:37, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Technically, Viriditas was editing while blocked, which is unacceptable. However, Wikipedia does not have firm rules, and I see no point in pursuing this. If Viriditas does the same again then we can reconsider the matter, but at present I see no reason to think that as at all likely. I am sure we can all find things to spend our time on which will be more helpful to the project. JamesBWatson (talk) 08:41, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "I am sure we can all find things to spend our time on which will be more helpful to the project." +1 to that... This whole topic is a tiny bit over the top.. I could say soemthing about the butterfly effect but I don't feel it is worth the time.  ·addshore·  talk to me! 09:53, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I am entitled to say this. This discussion was closed before I had the opportunity to reply to some very unfortunate comments by User:Nyttend directed at me. He said that I was being disruptive by raising this topic in the first place (18:14), and that I am trying to prevent edits that improve the encyclopedia (23:29). I'm fine with expressing differences of opinion, but Nyttend, as an administrator, should know better than to say those particular things. I'm clearly not trying to prevent a constructive edit. Look at what I said in my opening comment, about the edit being benign. I brought this up at AN, not ANI, as a discussion about a non-urgent issue, not an urgent incident. I didn't revert the edit. I made it clear that, once there was the issue of a false flag, I was opposed to any sanctions. Having a discussion that leads to a recognition that bot configurations may need to be revised is not disruptive. And, now that Viriditas has explained that it was a good faith mistake on his part, his explanation is fine with me. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:51, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You've wasted enough of everyone's time by trying to prevent someone from improving the encyclopedia. Please heed the "this is closed" and don't prolong the discussion.  Nyttend (talk) 01:04, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Where's the undeletion list?
Greetings all. Where's the list of who will respond to undeletion requests and can someone link it on the word "undelete" at WP:Administrators please? Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) 11:00, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's at Category:Wikipedia administrators willing to provide copies of deleted articles. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;"> equazcion <small style="font-size:75%">( talk ) 11:08, 10 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * And I have added it. PantherLeapord&#124;My talk page&#124;My CSD log 11:15, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Although, WP:REFUND is the appropriate noticeboard for such requests ES  &#38;L  11:18, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Remember that WP:REFUND is only for pages "that were uncontroversially deleted via proposed deletion, under certain speedy deletion criteria (such as maintenance deletions or rejected Articles for creation drafts), or in "articles for deletion" debates with little or no participation other than the nominator." PantherLeapord&#124;My talk page&#124;My CSD log 11:23, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Otherwise you might just get the templated advice for the next step if you ask for something controversial. This may be WP:DRV. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:31, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Right, so my point being well established above that linking to a "category of admins who will provide copies" is blatantly wrong ES  &#38;L  12:03, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've retargeted the link to Requests for undeletion (or WP:REFUND), which is at least a quasi-official page. It in turn has a link to Category:Wikipedia administrators willing to provide copies of deleted articles. Graham 87 08:38, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:List of hoaxes on Wikipedia/Amorica (legend)
Can someone please remove File:BlackCrowesAmoricaalbumcover.jpg per WP:NFCC? Werieth (talk) 18:54, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅. Thank you for the hint. De728631 (talk) 19:06, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes closed
An arbitration case regarding behaviour around the use of Infoboxes in several articles has now closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:

For the Arbitration Committee, — ΛΧΣ  21  00:26, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Archived discussion

RFC on a new user right for trusted template coders
An RFC is under way to determine whether or not to create a new user right that would allow trusted template coders to edit fully protected templates: Requests for comment/Template editor user right. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;"> equazcion <small style="font-size:75%">( talk ) 10:09, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)

Request for topic ban exemption (Arthur Rubin)
suggested this would be the appropriate venue, although I suspect ArbCom requests would be more appropriate. Per Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement, I am topic-banned from pages concerning the Tea Party movement. I would like to request an exemption from that ban, solely for the purpose of reverting the blocked IP-hopping "Michigan Kid", some of whose IPs are listed at User:Arthur Rubin/IP list (which I'm not often maintaining, myself). See Administrators%27 noticeboard/IncidentArchive756 (August 2012) for some background. I recently discovered a mass rollback tool, and I would prefer to be able to use it against this blocked editor. Some of the IPs were blocked for a year in late 2012, and, since they are continuing to edit, I believe the block should remain in effect until at least September 7, 2014. I first reverted those edits which were obviously unnecessary; and then changed to reverting those edits which were not probably useful, but he (or she) edits faster than I can keep up. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:30, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Two questions
 * Why is it that you are substantially more likely than others to notice Michigan Kid?
 * Can you make assurances that your ability to notice him is unrelated to your involvement with Tea Party articles?
 * &mdash;Kww(talk) 01:55, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hm, I am wondering if we (the community) really have the authority to approve this exemption request. Maybe Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment or an email is a more appropriate venue? Tiptoety  talk 04:53, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit summary deletion
I've been assigned this IP and it has many old edits from 2009. The edit summaries of these, are in fact personal attacks against I don't know who, but the edit summaries should be removed. Thanks 149.254.56.90 (talk) 22:40, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * While I sympathize with you, and your request may be at least partially granted by an admin or oversighter due to some of the terms and language used, have you considered creating yourself and account? Technical 13 (talk) 22:54, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, the earlier edit summaries should be rev-deleted per WP:CRD#2 (grossly insulting). (Hopefully we can skip the sewing circle debate about whether they're "ordinary incivility" And how many Wikipedias can dance on the talk page of the pin article. NE Ent 00:10, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Revdel'd the edit summary of all of them. If someone has a script that could have done that in a batch, instead of one at a time, don't tell me, because I'll get depressed at how much time I needlessly wasted. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:42, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If there currently isn't one, I could probably build you something similar to User:Kangaroopower/MRollback.js for revdel instead of rollbacks... Let me know if you might like this for the future and I'll see what I can do. (I personally have no use for it at the moment as I'm not an admin, but I could develop it on where I am for you. Technical 13 (talk) 01:26, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the offer, but I wouldn't use it often enough to make it worth your while; this is the first time I've needed to do it since I became an admin. But perhaps a script that all admins could use would be worthwhile.  Revdel'ing multiple edits in one article is relatively easy, but revdel'ing one edit from multiple articles manually is time consuming.  Doesn't happen often enough to be a crisis, though. And it's possible one already exists; I'm more technophobic than average, and don't have all the latest bells and whistles installed. They frighten and confuse me. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:13, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, please do develop it. :) It is bound to be useful to people. — <span style="color: #194D00; font-family: Palatino, Times, serif">Mr. Stradivarius  ♪ talk ♪ 10:03, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Request closure review
I am requesting a review of this closure by User:KrakatoaKatie. The discussion strongly favoured removal of the contentious and contradictory entry, so I'm a bit baffled that she would close it counter to what the obvious consensus of 17 to 7 would indicate. GabeMc (talk&#124;contribs)  07:58, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm requesting GabeMc disclose with closing editor on their talk page before opening AN threads. NE Ent 09:56, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The first step in WP:Closure review is to discuss with the closer. You have not done this. Talk to Katie, and see what the basis for the closure was. (S)he may have discounted !votes because they were not based in policy, they were made by single-purpose accounts, or there was a recent policy discussion that placed a higher burden of consensus than a 2:1 ratio. Until you talk with them, and find out, in detail, what the basis of the close was, there is nothing to actually review. VanIsaacWS Vex<sup style="margin-left:-7.0ex">contribs 14:12, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This AN thread is put on hold until discussion concludes on KrakatoaKatie's talk page. -- Jreferee (talk)


 * I will commence discussion with Katie at her talk page. Sorry to break procedure, but as far as I can tell consensus is quite strongly in favor of removing the contentious entry, so her closure baffled me. GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  19:31, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have replied on Gabe's talk page, and I welcome the input of the community. I apologize in advance if I don't participate in a discussion here about it; I've obtained a commission and I'm on a deadline, so I might not be back on Wikipedia for a few days. The MOS is important, but I have to put the food on the table, and I'll be back as soon as I can. Thanks. :-)  <font color="FireBrick">K <font color="2F4F4F">rakatoa  <font color="FireBrick">K <font color="2F4F4F">atie   22:48, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Works for me. (Support KK's closure.) NE Ent 00:13, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I feel that I have now made the obligatory effort to discuss the closure with Katie and I reiterate my request that the closure be reviewed. GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  00:17, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, you haven't even come close. You have so far done zero discussion with Katie. Simply putting in a request for information is not a discussion. You actually have to ask questions to understand the closure, disagree with parts of the answer and discuss those so that both you and Katie actually understand each others' perspective and have tried to bring a different understanding of the issue to each other; you know, actually discuss the closure with the closer and try to resolve the issue like in every single other dispute resolution process on Wikipedia. This requirement is not pro forma - you actually have to try to come to a resolution with Katie before we can even entertain a review. Furthermore, the review will largely consist of looking over your and Katie's discussion to see if Katie's reasoning was a reasonable approach to this particular matter, so it is in your interest to actually discuss, in depth, all aspects of the close with her. VanIsaacWS Vex<sup style="margin-left:-7.0ex">contribs 01:19, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

A question pertaining to page moves and WP:RM
The two articles in question, currently titled iPhone 5s and iPhone 5c, are using the lowercase letters for the spoken letter. Both articles were created as iPhone 5S and iPhone 5C, both using uppercase for the spoken letter the same as iPhone 3GS and iPhone 4S, but were moved without discussion to the lowercase letter format. Another user has begun RM discussions on both pages in order to restore the original titles. My question is, shouldn't the original titles be restored and let the person or persons wishing to move the articles to the lowercase format have the burden of requesting a WP:RM? The precedent being the Chelsea/Bradley Manning RM. Is there an admin willing to do this because when the articles were moved, it basically locked those redirect pages, so basically only admin tools can move the page or at least delete the redirect pages so the original titles can be restored. JOJ <sup style="color:#CC9900;">Hutton  21:34, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Lets not use the Manning dispute as a precedent for anything outside the Manning dispute. Actually, anyone can undo a move, as long as the redirect page automatically created by the move is not edited. Unfortunately, both the redirect pages here were edited by User:CaseyPenk, so non-admins can't undo the moves. Ideally, people wouldn't do that, but the existence of the template kind of encourages that, and I see no reason not to AGF. I'm not aware of any policy or guideline that would authorize an admin to move it back, or delete the redirect to make way for a move, as the move would be controversial, there is no consensus yet, and there are no compelling policy reasons, such as WP:BLP at issue. Perhaps we should have a discussion to change that, but you need consensus somewhere. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  00:45, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually there is now a header provided at WP:Requested moves/Technical requests where you can leave such requests. Reverting the move of iPhone 5c was requested there on Sept. 11 but it was declined by an admin. At this point a move discussion is already running at Talk:IPhone 5c so it should be allowed to finish. If the 5c move discussion ends in no consensus you could always ask the closer to default to the status quo ante, and they might do so. EdJohnston (talk) 01:04, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You see thats the problem. The "no-consensus" close. Thats why its so important to not have people moving pages without discussion and then have the burden of trying to change it back to the original fall on the ditors who simply feel that the article should not have been moved in the first place. Thats a pretty big flaw in the process.-- JOJ <sup style="color:#CC9900;">Hutton  02:00, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions review
(This is a repeat of an earlier notice.) Since March 2013, various individual members of the Arbitration Committee have been reviewing the existing Discretionary sanctions process, with a view to (i) simplifying its operation and (ii) updating its procedures to reflect various clarification and amendment requests. An updated draft of the procedure is available for scrutiny and discussion here. AGK [•] 16:46, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Discuss this.

Off-wiki canvassing
What is the correct procedure if a discussion is being swayed by off-wiki means? At Talk:Paris, the !vote after being slightly against changing the infobox photo has suddenly gained another 5 !votes for it, explained by Talk:Paris.-- Gilderien Chat&#124;What I've done 16:09, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I've poked in that page the odd time, and it might be helpful if someone with a lot of patience were to help mediate the overall dispute. There definitely are factions pushing for control of various aspects of the article, which certainly is unfair to Dr. Blofeld's efforts to bring it to GA status. Resolute 23:22, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * No need for patience, really - This complaint isn't about the article content itself, but the WP:MEAT tactic used to 'force' certain POV's; it doesn't matter whose POV's they are. There is no call to discuss article content at all. <span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#ddd7a3;font-size:95%;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;">THE PROMENADER  08:35, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

. All non editors, most with new accounts all turn up within a few hours to try to sway an argument. Isn't that sort of organized canvassing of non editors to try to sway an argument on wikipedia considered disruptive and blockable anyway? Not that those "votes" have an ounce of credibility anyway, but it is very concerning that Der Statistiker has no respect for other editors and seems intent on pushing his opinions whatever the cost. And yes, I've heard little but whining and sniping about my edits to the article which passed it as a GA. At one point they were proposing to revert back to the April version, which if you compare it to now it sums up what I've had to deal with.. I think if Der Statistiker continues to cause disruption and making derogatory remarks then a topic ban from Paris related articles might be the best thing.♦ Dr. Blofeld  07:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Following comment moved from separate section below. —  Scott  •  talk  15:24, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

A long and heated discussion over which picture to use to represent Paris has taken place. Some want to show famous Parisian sights, others want to show skyscrapers outside the city. Both arguments have merits. Unfortunately the discussion has turned ugly. Minato ku suggested that those who don't share his opinion want to show a city where "everybody is white". Completely beside the point, and a thinly disguised attempt at calling other users racists. Then, when the consensus seemed to go against his preferences for skyscrapers, the same user decided to go on a WP:MEAT-campaign. At the website skyscrapercity.com (hardly a neutral place), the user repeatedly encouraged members to go to English Wikipedia to comment and vote in favor of Minato Ku's preferred picture, ,. He even went on to instruct them how they should modify their profiles to appear more credible,. His meatpuppetry did have the desired effects, a number of new users turned up, their only edits consisted of being in favor of Minato Ku's desired photo change, , , .Jeppiz (talk) 19:53, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Mentioned above, Wikipedia:An#Off-wiki_canvassing. Might want to merge the sections so that all the discussion is in the same place... Ansh666 02:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. —  Scott  •  talk  15:25, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Why was this archived? (Perhaps the 'done' in the message above triggered the bot) <span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#ddd7a3;font-size:95%;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;">THE PROMENADER  04:37, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The bot is set to archive 2 days after the last comment. The only thing that changes that is a fake date stamp to manually delay archiving. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  04:40, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Or . Be sure to remove it once the thread is closed so it can be archived. I have added it above. PantherLeapord&#124;My talk page&#124;My CSD log 05:16, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Much thanks - will do. <span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#ddd7a3;font-size:95%;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;">THE PROMENADER  08:26, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The DNAU template doesn't seem to keep this from being archived - perhaps I implemented it wrongly? <span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#ddd7a3;font-size:95%;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;">THE PROMENADER  16:55, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

A 'two-cents' second thought about this episode: Minato ku has been making (a few) edits to Paris-based articles since 2007, so should have known better than to rouse the off-wiki campaign as he did, but one question is bothering me: How is it that his first edit since a year and a half is a vote for the 'La Défense' image on the Paris talk page? It seems evident that someone involved in that debate before the vote 'put out the call' to draw that contributor here, so I (for one) would feel badly if he alone took the blame if he was not alone in organizing the drive. If this is the case, it would be kind (to Minato ku and all contributors involved in this) if that 'someone' came forward. <span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#ddd7a3;font-size:95%;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;">THE PROMENADER  11:53, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd put good money on it being one particular editor, who opposes any Dr. Blofield-initiated edit with an apparent disregard for whether it's an improvement or not, but there we go. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 13:20, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It is not because I am not active that I don't read Wikipedia. The Paris article was quite calm until a few months ago, I had no reason to participate here if nothing happened. In the few previous months, I was too busy and I didn't go in Wikipedia. When I decided to go again in Wikipedia page, I have seen big changes and debates, I had to put my opinion.
 * ThePromenader seems to think that my interventions is only based on la Défense (I don't know what he has against La Défense). This is not true, my interventions are mostly based on a bad impression that I notice in many media and here. I have the impression that everything is done reduce to the minimum facts that are not according to the homogeneous, touristy, old and quaint stereotypes of Paris. I was even accused of calling people 'racist' when I have given this bad feeling about what is happening here.
 * I hope I am wrong but many of the talks seem to confirm this fear rather than the opposite.
 * I only put my two cents in the talk section, I didn't edit the article, I didn't bring people here for a vote that did not not even exist at this time. I have rebuked those who came and insulted some editors because of me (I am sorry for that).
 * I find some reactions to be quite exaggerated here, as if it was a problem or suspicious thing to have people who don't agree with them. Minato ku (talk) 00:10, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Apologies, your first intervention (after a year and a half) was two months earlier than any vote. Just goes to show that off-wiki maniplation can give everything a 'suspect' angle it shouldn't have. <span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#ddd7a3;font-size:95%;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;">THE PROMENADER  06:52, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * PS: personally I don't care about 'sanctions' (I didn't begin this thread - but it doesn't look as though anything is going to happen anyways), I just don't want to see anything of the sort happening again. <span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#ddd7a3;font-size:95%;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;">THE PROMENADER  17:39, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

This has been here since two three weeks now, can someone close this issue please? <span style="font-family:Futura, Helvetica, _sans;color:#ddd7a3;font-size:95%;text-shadow:1px 1px 3px #a0a0a0;">THE PROMENADER  05:53, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Virginia Society for Human Life
Perhaps an admin or two could keep an eye on this AFD. An IP user has already been blocked for harassment over, shall we say, the way he chose to express his dislike of the fact that the article was up for deletion, and the AFD is now full of SPAs that may have come from off-wiki; the latest is that, apparently sore over being labeled an SPA on the basis of having, well, a single purpose, one of the sockpuppets/meatpuppets has taken to labeling all the editors he disagrees with as having been canvassed, without any attempt to provide evidence of same. Admin watchfulness may be helpful. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 17:54, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, per Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion, both the article Virginia Society for Human Life and its talkpage should be semi-protected through November of 2014. I'm going to go ahead and do that. The AfD is a mess, but I'm going to leave that for another admin to clean up. Discounting the obvious influx of single-purpose !voters and the sniping, there's probably still some useable input there. MastCell Talk 18:05, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I would say that all four IP addresses !voting Keep are actually the same editor (certainly the three of them that are on the same mobile network), and clearly not a new one judging by their knowledge of WP:ALPHABETSOUP and certain other editors. The last three entries should probably be struck as duplicates. Black Kite (talk) 18:17, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Competenence/Point making/un-civil behavior from editor with concerning reactions


I happened to catch this diff on my watchlist and found it peculiar that WP:POINT would be cited in a revert on the request for undeletion page. After I started digging in I discovered a persistent methodology in their responses when met with adversity, with resepect to dealing with some of the more sensitive portions of the project, and in the way that their behavior is disrupting the project as a whole. I do see in their talk page they have had permissions revoked and dis-invitations from specific sections of the project. At this point I am unsure what the appropriate preventative action would be, though I can see anything from an admin strongly taking them in hand up to a WP:CIR block. Hasteur (talk) 19:01, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I wonder if a WP:CIR block can also be handed out to someone who cannot spell "competence"? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:29, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I have encountered Barney a few times before, and earlier today I removed his auto-patrolled status due to his continued mis-use of page curation tools (i.e. repeatedly incorrectly tagging articles for CSD, repeatedly adding BLPPROD tags to articles about dead people etc.). His talk page responses are sarcastic, and he shows no respect for other editors or Wikipedia's rules. POINTy !votes at AFDs today and the past few weeks, sarcastic posts on the talk pages of new editors are among issues I have spotted recently, and his reaction to the AN notification was more of the same. Basically, I agree than Barney lacks the correct attitude or competency to be a useful Wikipedia editor and I would support an indefinite block. GiantSnowman 19:27, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This sentence is rather telling for POINTY because he opens with, "I am told that I am not competent enough to judge new article are promotional or not, and that promotion is now allowed." If its indicative of anything, it shows their understanding is flawed, but without going too deep into the matter, maybe a language barrier exists? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:33, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

This doesn't look like a long term issue, but kind of a blowup today in reaction to GS's criticism and removal of the auto-patrolled right. I don't really think his comment in the AFD a few weeks ago (GS's 2nd link) is pointy; are there any other examples of what you consider pointy behavior from before today? Saying he "lacks competence" because he's pissed off, and saying he "can't be a useful editor" when he has been one for a year and a half, seems unfair. Looking through his contribs, it looks like he might be a little too aggressive in page curation; he certainly wouldn't be the only one. He hasn't edited in 45 minutes, perhaps rather than propose indefinite CIR blocks we could, I don't know, talk to him like he's an angry human being or something first? --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:56, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Regarding the AFD comment, it was definitely POINTy. Basically I removed his BLPPROD (twice!) as it was not eligible, and took the article to AFD. He then made that comment where he !voted keep and delete at the same time. Further background - he was at WP:ANEW four days ago, and had to be prompted to actually engage by Bbb23. I'm not sure how far you want me to go back, but a comment at AFD 2 months ago that there is "Keep - no valid for deletion given" even though there clearly was a lengthy rationale by an experienced editor show he either hasn't read it, or he has read it and ignored it - neither is good. Dismissing this behavior as a "bad day" will simply not suffice. GiantSnowman 20:07, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand that it is frustrating, but this doesn't seem to rise to the level of CIR on a short term analysis. People make mistakes, have bad days and do things they will later regret - including replying to things without reading. If it was all foreign language, gibberish or something that is incomprehensible over a longer period of time - it may be an option, but I think this is premature. BtBB has not even responded here and I'd like at least their input before deciding on any action. Think of it as more ROPE, and remember that POINTy is a lot easier than CIR to block for. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 20:34, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * (e/c) So, one AFD vote that might be borderline pointy (I still don't think so, but I can see how you reasonably do), an AFD keep vote with no real rationale (but on an article that was kept) from two months ago, and not responding to an ANEW thread (but one that was closed with no action).... i don't see anything close to a WP:CIR issue, nor anything really out of the ordinary before today's blowup. Not a perfect editor, but you and I aren't perfect either, let's not try to make that a criterion for others to keep editing here. If we get rid of imperfect but better than average page curators, the quality of page curation still goes down. I would imagine that, like most people, BTBB is relatively open to constructive criticism, not so open to jibes. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:35, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * My comment is directed only at the ANEW issue. Sometimes when evaluating an EW report, I tell an editor that they "must" respond at ANEW or risk being blocked. Sometimes I just tell them I've issued a warning at ANEW, and leaving the message makes sure they're aware of it. In Barney's case, my message was unusual (don't think I've ever left one before like it). I found the whole report mystifying and was curious as to Barney's thinking. I was mildly suprised when he didn't respond to the message, but it was no big deal, and, as you say, there was no violation and it was closed for that reason.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:23, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

From Gate to Wire was flagged for speedy deletion by Barney. Snowman didn't agree that it fell under WP:CSD and reverted Barney's flag.

Now whether it technically falls under that clause or not, From Gate to Wire looks like fluff to me.

Snowman's reprimand seems unduly harsh and negative, with a threat to block. He could have easily said, "I get why you marked the article, but that wasn't technically the right tag" (assuming that it wasn't the right tag, which is not entirely clear here) or "The article looks okay to me because..." or something.

Barney responds to Snowman's harshness/negativity with sarcasm. Snowman responds by revoking Barney's autoconfirm rights!. That seems excessive and clearly retaliatory against Barney for him not buying Snowman's original claim (whether the claim is true or not).

Barney proceeds to make a WP:POINT.

It would be a shame to lose Barney over this one issue, which, while the POINT stuff is clearly his bad, it was nonetheless instigated by Snowman's negativity and later escalated by it. It looks to me like Snowman took the "respect my authoritah" kind of approach, whereas dealing with others constructively as peers may have prevented the problem in the first place, or at least not inflamed it.

Just speaking for myself, I met Barney during my dealings with Rupert Sheldrake fans, and it would be a shame to lose another eye on the article (which he fixed again just two days ago). Vzaak (talk) 20:46, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Wow, I just noticed Snowman is advocating an indefinite block. This is way over the top and continues pattern of escalation I mentioned above. Vzaak (talk) 20:51, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment- I agree that Snowman's approach was excessively heavy-handed and officious. Removing Barney's autoconfirm rights was unnecessary, and advocating for an indef block is so over the top it doesn't even pass the laugh test. Both strike me as vindictive. Barney's passive-aggressive sarcasm doesn't help much, but if you go out of your way to annoy people on their own talk page you should not react with shocked outrage when they snap back. And, for the record, that article did qualify for CSD. Reyk  <sub style="color:blue;">YO!  21:59, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * User:RHaworth has flagged From Gate to Wire under the same clause, CSD#A7. Vzaak (talk) 23:50, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * They have a disagreement over notability guidelines (a non-admin style interaction): and then following on from that Snowman removed his autoconfirmed: . Doesn't the negative interaction (which is not related to operating in an admin capacity) constitute being WP:INVOLVED considering his obviously strong feelings? (This isn't rhetorical, I would like to hear opinions) IRWolfie- (talk) 23:56, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment If Barney wasn't utilizing the tools he was entrusted with (observed over time, not a single day) then removing the rights could be warranted. But I don't think being disrespectful and sarcastic warrant an indefinite block. I also don't think it's fair to dig through someone's edits over months and selectively pick out the bad ones and claim they are typical. No editor could pass that kind of scrutiny. I agree that we've all had bad edits and had bad days. To warrant a long-term ban, a pattern of misconduct or poor behavior has to be demonstrated. At least, that's how I've understood the process to work.  Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 00:12, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've redirected it to Ottawa, Illinois. I would have sent it to the newspaper, but it doesn't have an article.  I'm pretty sure that an article on a column in a paper that doesn't have an article can't stand alone. Black Kite (talk) 00:24, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Though FWIW, I am against any type of block . Let it go. Black Kite (talk) 00:34, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support WP:BOOMERANG block for WP:CIR. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:29, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Now I've slept on it and had another review of the situation, I'll agree I was perhaps overly harsh yesterday with my threat to block, though I stand by my removal of his auto-confirmed rights. I think he is competent, but he just doesn't like the way we operate. He also has a lack of understanding of notability, such as telling a newbie GNG doesn't mater. This PROD removal summary, combined with his !vote at the subsequent AFD, shows he clearly hasn't read the notability guideline he is citing. Furthermore his attitude stinks - I've seen good content work from him, but that's no excuse for continued incivility. GiantSnowman 08:33, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * He also needs to stop biting [good faith new editors. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]]Snowman 09:06, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * He's been given some straight talking to by Floq. For now that will suffice. If he ignores said advice, he can't say he wasn't warned. In any case, more admins are keeping an eye on him now, so I think you can rest easy. Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   09:33, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The WP:BOOMERANG is strong with this comment. The decision to revoke auto-confirmation was in direct response to Barney's sarcasm. He thought the A7 argument was bogus, and others here agree. He mirrored the incivility he was shown in the harsh warning and block threat. Because he didn't show proper "respect for authoritah", he was taught a lesson with the auto-confirm revocation.


 * Barney had a right to be aggrieved, but not to keep making WP:POINTs thereafter. All but one of the above links re behavior occurred after this incident -- sarcastic remarks made after the aggravation you spurred.


 * User:RHaworth also marked the page with A7. When is he going to be issued a stern warning with block threat?


 * I hope I'm not burning bridges with this comment, I just think that the authoritarian dynamic is very strong here, and someone needs to say it. Treat others as peers and they will respond in kind. Insist on the correctness of what is clearly an opinion through warnings and threats by exercising "authoritah", and expect a wide range of reactions, including self-immolation. Vzaak (talk) 10:22, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * If somebody is going to template RHaworth with something akin to uw-disruptive4 then I want front row seats and a large tub of popcorn..... Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   10:54, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Your lack of good faith distubs me. The auto-confirmed right was removed due to mis-use despite previous warnings. I told him he was able to re-apply for it, and I am more than happy for another admin to re-instate it if they feel my removal of it was incorrect. I've offered my help to Barney previously and got no response; I also issued comments and warnings about page curation tools, again to no avail, and I've already said I accept my threat to block was OTT. GiantSnowman 11:24, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This isn't related to good faith; I'm just looking at what happened. Barney responded sarcastically to your warning plus block threat. Twenty minutes later you say, "Do you know what's not helpful? Your attitude." Five minutes after that comes the revocation of autoconfirm. Among the incivilities here I would rank that retaliatory abuse of authority among the highest, greater than sarcastic remarks and sarcastic POINT proving. Abuse of power is a very strong trigger, and it's no surprise that real-life riots are often related to it (e.g. LA 1992). It has the ability to remove inhibitions because "fuck it, the system is broken". Barney is still at fault for his reaction, but you are not able to point that out in a non-boomerangy manner.


 * If only the block threat was OTT, then shouldn't User:RHaworth at least deserve a polite warning saying that he got it wrong? Where's the warning? Vzaak (talk) 12:15, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I actually removed the status - now restored - after seeing this, but please continue to accuse me of abusing power/retaliation all you want. GiantSnowman 18:04, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

(ec) ..... This came in while I was asleep last night. I regularly patrol the queue of proposed CSDs to see if there are any I can commute down to PROD, AfD, tagged or even improve with sources. (The White Mandingos being a personal favourite - A7 to DYK.) I saw From Gate to Wire and thought "hang on, that's print media ... Ottawa Times? National Canadian newspaper?" I dug around a bit and discovered that, no, it was actually an insignificant column in an insignificant web-only paper of no importance. I endorsed the A7 and left it alone.

That's my opinion of the content. Regarding the conduct - it's an A7, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't is blatant edit warring, and as an admin, Snowman, you should know full well that it was. Barney's conduct (eg:, ) is not helpful, but edit-warring and discussions that can be paraphrased as "go ahead punk, make my day" is not the way to resolve it. Now let's all calm down, take a deep breath, and improve an article. Ritchie333 <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   08:41, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Perhaps my review of the events is different from others. From what I see, GS saw a single, somewhat problematic issue.  They approached the editor (good idea).  Having arrived at the editor's talkpage, they noticed a few other similar issues and started digging deeper (good idea).  While GS was digging, the editor decided to be extremely sarcastic/caustic (bad idea).  GS noted a larger number of issues, and appears to have made the decision to remove a userright before the smartassed comments (good idea).  The editor became more caustic (bad idea). It escalated from there (bad idea).  Based on the ratio of correct page patrols to very much incorrect page patrols, the user-right modification appears correct in face as a temporary solution.  The editor reallllly should have taken this in a better way (good idea), but escalated it through their sarcasm (bad idea).  GS should not have responded to the sarcasm.  In the end, with a little "training" the editor will eventually get that user-right back (good idea), UNLESS they continue to resort to sarcasm/caustic/POINTY behaviours (bad idea).  GS was not WP:INVOLVED because it was not the sarcasm that made him remove the user-right, it was the history of edits.  ES  &#38;L  11:46, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I must be missing something terminally obvious. GiantSnowman has removed Barney's autopatrolled status here. Unless there's strong evidence of Barney creating articles himself that get CSDed, and since you don't need autopatrolled to actually do patrolling (I did NPP and AfC work for literally years before getting autopatrolled), then I can't see removing that right as directly preventing disruption - therefore it has to be a punishment. Or have I got this all wrong? Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   12:11, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Preventative, to stop him disruptively tagging articles (as I have already shown) and making comments like this. GiantSnowman 12:18, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think it does, though, does it? From my understanding, reviewing pages requires autoconfirmed, which is checked automatically, while you removed autopatrolled. I'm just a bit worried you've got your terms mixed up. Indeed, the autopatrolled documentation explicitly states "It does nothing at all when the user is looking at or patrolling pages." So, by my understanding, you haven't technically prevented him from reviewing. Can another admin clarify this? Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   13:01, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh dear, maybe I have - in which case please come a-trouting for me. GiantSnowman 13:09, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, after a review, autopatrolled has nothing to do with page curation. Since there have been no problems with new pages he's created, I've restored that flag. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:56, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

To all the Editors calling for boomerang (i.e. Doesn't Boomearang assume that the editor bringing the complaint is at fault?  I did not interact with EITHER of these editors prior, and only noticed the interaction and exceedingly poor communication from BtBB and brought it here to see if there was perhaps another admin that was willing to step in as a "good cop" to try and diffuse the situation.  Glad to know that the reading skills of the average AN reader are first line only. (And yes that last sentence is snark) Hasteur (talk) 12:38, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Um, what? It should be perfectly obvious that I wasn't referring to you. To construe WP:BOOMERANG so narrowly as to apply only to the person that happens to start an incident report doesn't make sense. Whether someone happens to launch an attack from an existing incident report or a new one is not relevant. It wouldn't make sense to grant everyone immunity from WP:BOOMERANG except the person that happened to open the incident. Vzaak (talk) 00:03, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Er...on AN and ANI, "WP:BOOMERANG" is, in every other time I've seen it used, used to refer only to when an OP's complaint, well, boomerangs back at them. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:01, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Vzaak, who are you hoping to BOOMERANG then, me? GiantSnowman 08:49, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Filter 188 is not working
Do not know who's able to fix this but Filter 188 (accessible from UAA) is not working since Sept 4. The other filters from UAA are working fine. -- Alexf(talk) 18:41, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Special:AbuseFilter/history/188 shows that the filter was deleted by on 4 September 2013. I've asked them to comment here. 64.40.54.143 (talk) 23:23, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Filter 188 was an exact duplicate of Special:AbuseFilter/148. I have deleted 188 and updated the UAA list. Triplestop (talk) 23:51, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Thanks! -- Alexf(talk) 00:10, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

MFD
As an IP, I can't create Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Meeples10/School1st.

Please create it, content as;

Thx

88.104.27.75 (talk) 02:15, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. Why is this on AN? --erachima talk 02:23, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * 'coz I required an admin. Where else should it be? It's not an ongoing incident or anything. Sorry if it was any hassle, but srsly... this is actually more what AN is for than most of the shite you get here. Anyway - thx 88.104.27.75 (talk) 02:28, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * You don't need an admin to create pages. I'm not an admin. For general assistance that doesn't require admin tools, the WP:Help Desk is the better option. --erachima talk 02:37, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Amendment to Requests for arbitration/Locke Cole
The Arbitration Committee has resolved by that:

For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:17, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Discuss this

Stalking, owning, edit warring, NPOV and Uncivil Comments/accusations on my talk page by Roscelese
Below are incidents of going behind all my edits and changing them which I believe qualifies as edit stalking. They violated no rules. I noticed a comment left on my talk page and checked to see who left it only to find Roscoles reverted all my edits concerning abortion. My edits mostly linked articles with common themes through the see also page and did some minor editing on a couple. Roscoless also accused me of spamming whatever that was meant to imply on my talk page. That was not assuming good faith. They were not unreasonable edits and made it easier to link common articles and did some other minor edits also. Roscoelese clearly does not adhere to WP:NPOV and has stalked my edits. Please warn Roscolese to not stalk me, post on my talk page or consider a block Roscolese for some time if this continues. I do not appreciate Roscoeles's accusations and have asked Roscoelese to leave my talk page alone. After looking at Roscoelese edits and comments I have decided I have no desire to interact with that editor on my talk page. I do not mind edits to my edits but following behind my edits and reverting all of them was not in the best interest of wikipedia's neutral editing goal. An obvious point of view and likely agenda is apparent in Roscoelese's edits.

Ramblings not Really Pertinent to the Above Concern: Apparently Roscolese has some friends who support that type of editing. They are in no doubt done with a extreme bias yet nothing I could see has been done to limit Roscolese from violating Wikipedia rules regularly. Roscoelese likely will email or otherwise contact them. The comments here about my concerns will highlight those in Roscoelese's camp and their similar agendas and edit warring. Oh well what else would one suspect? Welcome to the "honest discussion". I may decide to take another extended break from editing again but who truly cares right? Wiki truly has come to petty agenda pushing and having to resort to this forum all to often. This may be a huge waste of my time that could be spent improving articles that are less agenda driven which I prefer to do but will not be bullied by uncivil editors. That would allow the agenda warriors to win and grossly cast Wikipedia as non-neutral. Apparently some see no need to remain neutral when the bands of mischievous monkeys have formed under the pretense of "consensus". That may sound negative but I bet that statement would have much consensus among the infrequent editors and quite possibly the many regular ones as well. I previously edited as 208.54.40.220 and have no control over the IP changing as millions of others do not also. Sorry to disappoint all you paranoid sock puppet conspiracy buffs. This occurs to millions of internet users, so save your specious claims and learn how the internet works before making accusations based on technology you do not comprehend. I suppose some hyper banner could ban this IP but sometime soon a new one will be assigned which is beyond my control. It is really nice though as I do not have to deal with nasty uncivil comments on my talk page for long periods. I have no desire to give Wikipedia my email address and thus will likely always be an outside infrequent editor as I have for many years. But I believe my concerns can be addressed based on their merits and not a paranoid viewpoint that he's not one of us paranoid behavior. '''I guess I sound a little negative and apologize for that but I showed much restraint being that I have no fear to not do so. I believe in good faith, don't bite, civility so I have limited my pessimism somewhat.''' Well off to undue the vandalism of my edits. Maybe this squeaky wheel will get some grease. 172.56.10.73 (talk) 04:14, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Edits of Roscolese directly following my edits below: 14:08, 13 September 2013 (diff | hist). . (-52)‎ . . Abortion-rights movements ‎ (I get what you're trying to say, but this is convoluted and possibly redundant; mine might not be much better, but it's a try) (current) 14:05, 13 September 2013 (diff | hist). . (-297)‎ . . National Pro-Life Religious Council ‎ (Reverted to revision 503749238 by 75.114.225.30: Rv spam. (TW)) 14:04, 13 September 2013 (diff | hist). . (+290)‎ . . User talk:208.54.40.220 ‎ (→‎Please stop spamming: new section) (current) 14:04, 13 September 2013 (diff | hist). . (-293)‎ . . Concerned Women for America ‎ (Reverted to revision 571536139 by Roscelese: Rv spam, unconstructive edits. (TW)) 14:03, 13 September 2013 (diff | hist). . (-1,632)‎ . . Anti-abortion movements ‎ (Reverted to revision 572737582 by Jamesmcmahon0: Rv spam. (TW)) 14:02, 13 September 2013 (diff | hist). . (-38)‎ . . Right to life ‎ (It's already in the pro-life orgs category; please don't spam it everywhere) (current)


 * I'm really tired of this user's harassment (he's already been blocked once under a different IP for harassing me). Dude needs to learn that the right response to a user nominating for deletion an article on something he likes or is affiliated with is not to go ballistic and harass people (or to spam the article into unrelated ones). I think this insane rant really speaks for itself. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 05:04, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Calling me names shows lack of civility and respect. You stalked me and reverted my edits that did not fit your viewpoint and now you call me names. You continue with false accusations. You need to learn how to be civil and quit stalking editors in order to promote your view. You seem to mock, harass, and ignore sources, editors, and organizations that dares challenge the way you demand things should be. No wonder people leave wiki. You do much more harm to the community by your name calling than good. Your stereotype shows lack of sensitivity to mentally ill people. If I was "insane" as you mocked my character consider how that would be taken. There is no tolerance of that by the wiki community. Please seriously consider that and show some respect to other people even if you do not agree with them. How you can avoid a temporary cooling off block for comments like that are beyond my understanding. Are going to use racists comments or call me mentally challenged next? Shame on you!!! 172.56.10.73 (talk) 06:04, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, where did Roscolese call you a name? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:46, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I spy, with my little eye, something rapidly approaching that begins with 'B'. - The Bushranger One ping only 09:12, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What does providing your email address have to do with anything? Nil Einne (talk) 12:21, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Maybe we need something like an AN/ANI blacklist for the protectors of the wiki who toil to keep articles on abortion and other fanatic-attracting areas decent? Would that be technically possible? People like User:Roscelese and User:AndyTheGrump get precious little thanks for their good work, and they keep getting dragged to AN or ANI by the zealots they disoblige.
 * As for "stalking" you, 172.56.xx, each userpage contains a link to the user's contributions. This feature exists among other things to allow people who find tendentious or otherwise disruptive editing to go check what else the editor in question has been doing, and to revert in case those edits were also disruptive. Because that has been known to happen. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Roscelese "following" you in the way you describe. Heck, I follow users' edits in that way all the time. The term "stalking" for Wikipedia actions is discouraged nowadays (please see here), precisely because the word can mislead people into thinking there's something wrong with following someone's edits. If you have wikihounding in mind, please follow the link and see that it doesn't apply here. Bishonen &#124; talk 21:55, 15 September 2013 (UTC).

Just some advice, 172.56.10.73: It doesn't serve you well to file a complaint here and then complain about the process and claim it is unfair before people even have a chance to assess your claims. I'm talking about statements like this: "Apparently some see no need to remain neutral when the bands of mischievous monkeys have formed under the pretense of 'consensus'." "Sorry to disappoint all you paranoid sock puppet conspiracy buffs." You might not have been directing them against the readers of your post but they read like they are accusations. You're unlikely to get much sympathy if you assume from the start that Editors commenting here will take sides against you. Liz <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 10:44, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Can't start AfD
I just tried to start an AfD discussion for the Niggers in the White House article. However, after I added the template to the article and tried to click through to create a page at the AfD location, it won't let me. It says that it is locked and only for administrator access. What's going on? Why is the AfD page that hasn't been created locked? I assume that it's been salted, but why? Silver seren C 05:42, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Seems to be working fine on my end...  Erpert  WHAT DO YOU WANT??? 05:47, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe it has something to do with the "nigger" part of the title tripping a filter of some description. PantherLeapord&#124;My talk page&#124;My CSD log 05:49, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's presumably the title blacklist. Gimme a sec, I'll create it for you. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 05:50, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * @Silver seren: done. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 05:52, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll go and finish it then. Silver  seren C 05:53, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Couldn't this have waited until the article was off the main page? See point 5 at Speedy keep. -- John of Reading (talk) 06:11, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Whoa, good catch. I'll close it.  Erpert  WHAT DO YOU WANT??? 06:31, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If you do that, i'll just reopen it. It shouldn't have been let through DYK in the first place. Silver  seren C 06:32, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I think an article on this sort of subject, which is newly created, quite possibly offensive, and has sources that don't seem to be about the subject at all, deserves an AfD even if it is at DYK. Really, this is something the DYK reviewer should have caught in the first place. But I guess they were lured in because the article looked pretty and appeared to have a bunch of sources. Silver  seren C 06:32, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Any article with "Nigger" in it is bound to be offensive to a select some. I can say no more — a seasoned administrator approved this article, and another seasoned administrator approved it for its Main Page appearance. I'm thinking two seasoned admins can't be wrong about their decisions, but oh well, let's just let the AfD flow. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/  Nonsensical Babble  ☯ 09:48, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems deliberately provocative. Yes, it has some historical information but most people won't read beyond the title. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 09:55, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I have warned BTC for comments such as this and this on the article talk page. Provocative, childish, and the latter is outright racist. GiantSnowman 09:57, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * On the article itself, I think it could probably be saved with a bit of fancy footwork in the editing arena- I doubt, for instance, that there's actually any reason for that particular adjective to be used anywhere except the title. And arguably it is quite a significant historical issue. <b style="color:Green;">Basket </b><sub style="color:orange;">Feudalist 15:28, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

AfD needing a WP:SNOW closure
Could an uninvolved admin please close Articles for deletion/Kevin Rudd behavioural and personality related controversies? There's a very strong consensus there to delete the article as soon as possible. Thanks, Nick-D (talk) 02:15, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, just delete it per any reasonable admin exemption to wp::adminaccount. Send complaints to my talk page. NE Ent 02:25, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Given that I'd participated in a related discussion in the lead up to the AfD and have, from memory, had disagreements with the article creator in the past, it wouldn't have been a very good idea if I'd speedy closed the AfD discussion and deleted. Nick-D (talk) 01:08, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

UTRS help requested
UTRS could certainly do with some fresh admin eyes. I appear to be the only consistently active admin/CU there, and I can hardly review my own blocks. Any help would be appreciated! --<b style="color:Navy;">Jezebel's</b> Ponyo <sup style="color:Navy;">bons mots 21:09, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It might help if there was information on that page as to how admins can help or at least a link to admin instructions or similar as there are on many pages. I would have no idea where to begin or where to find information. Dpmuk (talk) 22:03, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * http://toolserver.org/~unblock/p/register.php is a good place to start.&mdash;Kww(talk) 23:22, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If you're an OTRS user, UTRS works in a similar (but not exactly the same) manner that should feel more or less familiar. Users submit appeals/tickets, which can then be reserved and handled (using templates or custom responses) by administrators with UTRS accounts. Give it a try if you're willing to help out; I find that it's a remarkably user-friendly experience compared to both OTRS and the old unblock-l mailing list. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 03:05, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

File needs deleting
This file is overdue for deletion: File:The Myth of Mental Illness.JPG. 203.118.187.214 (talk) 21:25, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

AWB request
On Wikipedia talk:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage User:Vanquisher.UA has requested access to AWB again. Earlier I granted it, it was then withdrawn after it was used to remove whitespace. Can an independent admin decide whether or not to grant access for Vanquisher.UA? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:27, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Mathsci
The Arbitration Committee resolves by that

For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:19, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Discuss this

Harassment from an admin
This may be a new one, but...I feel as though I have been being harassed by User:Spartaz when it comes to pornography-related articles. The situation stemmed from a bad-faith AfD (granted, there wasn't really any harassment there, but it became pretty clear that he doesn't like pornography; more on that later), but recently I re-created the article Elexis Monroe that ended up being speedily deleted (not by him/her), but then when I brought the situation to DRV, Spartaz closed it early because s/he claimed that the situation was getting too heated and that certain users were personalizing things. I then told him/her on his/her talk page that I didn’t think s/he should have performed the close due to his/her apparent bias, to which s/he once again accused me of personalizing things but s/he also suggested that I take the situation to WT:DRV. I instead opened a thread here, and eventually I excused myself from the whole thing and even went on a wikibreak not merely because people didn’t agree with me, but most of said users were users that I have had disagreements with in the past (some people might conclude that that might be saying something about me, but I think I presented myself fairly).

The thing is, now there’s a discussion at DRV about am adult film star named Deauxma (which I didn’t create, btw; I merely !voted in favor of it), where Spartaz is once again attacking me and accusing me of personalizing things. This seems to stem from the thread creator (User:Rebecca1990) suggesting that all the delete !votes coming from people who don’t like pornography (which I do agree with), but the thing is, when Rebecca suggests something like that and then I (and other users) agree with it, Spartaz doesn’t come after all of us, s/he comes after me alone (this is milder, but this and this are harsher). And then s/he comes and says I'm personalizing things? (BTW, how is this (line 38) personalizing anything; and why isn’t that a good suggestion?) Speaking of that, I didn’t discuss this further at DRV because, frankly, that isn’t what DRV is for; in addition, carrying on a discussion like that is steering away from the purpose of the actual DRV.

Basically, all I want is for Spartaz to leave me alone. Now, this aspect I am personalizing because of how s/he has been coming after me (I’m not sure now if his real bias is against porn or against me). If you don’t agree with me about a topic, that’s fine, but don’t just continue to berate me and then wonder why I get upset about it. Frankly, Spartaz is an admin, and admins are supposed to be setting good examples for other users to follow; this is not one of those examples.  Erpert  WHAT DO YOU WANT??? 19:37, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I think you are mistaking editors that don't like our pornography articles for editors that don't like pornography. So long as you continue to fail to draw that distinction you are going to appear to be personalizing disputes in this area. Spartaz's actions seem to me to be a reasonable application of admin discretion; if you want to make the assertion Spartaz doesn't like pornography and so imply that he is acting from bias then we would need to see diffs to demonstrate that assertion. CIreland (talk) 19:55, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "I think you are mistaking editors that don't like our pornography articles for editors that don't like pornography"...and I personally think that's frequently a distinction without a real difference. In my experience on Wikipedia so far, there are obviously some editors that dislike pornography-related articles and will sometimes come up with some pretty far-fetched or invalid ideas for why they should be deleted. A lot of this activity appears to predate my involvement in the Pornography Project, since around March of this year. Is "Spartaz" one of those editors? I'm actually not sure, but "Erpert" and "Spartaz" certainly do seem to rub each other the wrong way IMHO. I actually have a lot of respect for some of the tough calls that "Spartaz" has made as an administrator in the past, but it may be the case that their experiences at DRV (see below) may have colored their usual response to pornography-related articles over time. Guy1890 (talk) 23:05, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I think your characterization of others' votes is a little off. Guidelines are there as an aid to try and depict and organize the current practices, rather than to codify them in a binding way. Practice can indeed disagree with the guideline and choose to ignore it; and when that happens enough, hopefully the guideline will change to reflect the new practice. I have no opinion on PORNBIO in particular though, as I have no experience with that area of the encyclopedia. That said though, I do think Spartaz needs to calm down. He appears to be sick of you and is overreacting to some of the things you say. I don't think it rises to the level of harassment, but "conduct unbecoming", maybe. I'd say you guys should both keep a distance from each other for a while. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999"> equazcion ( talk ) 20:05, 15 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * Just for convenience, I wanted to provide a link to the early closure Erpert alludes to: Deletion review/Log/2013 August 8. I do think Spartaz was a little too previously involved with this topic and this user to provide a close. Not so sure about this anymore, most of the quoted issues seemed to crop up subsequent to this close. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999"> equazcion ( talk ) 20:23, 15 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * For convienience, here is a link to the previous AN where Erpert complained of my early close. . It appears that his charactarisation of that situation was not supported on review. DRV has zero tolerance of disruptive use of DRVs as platforms to attack other users and my early closure was consistent with DRV practise for years. Also relevant are S.Marshall's comments in recent porn related DRVs where Erpert's (amongst others) aggressive badgering and labelling of opposing views is clearly discouraging them from offering opinions. This clearly is not acceptable and this disruptive behaviour is distorting discussions. . Spartaz Humbug! 00:33, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "Also relevant are S.Marshall's comments in recent porn related DRVs where Erpert's (amongst others) aggressive badgering and labelling of opposing views is clearly discouraging them from offering opinions." I don't get the sense that anyone that might be on the anti-porn side of things on Wikipedia is a "shrinking violet" by any stretch of the imagination. Like it or not, there's a real disconnect between what happens at AfD and DRV when it comes to PORNBIO, and it's not going to get any better unless something is done about it. Maybe this isn't the forum for that. Guy1890 (talk) 03:04, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I was reading a little more at DRV and AFD. Does it seem that the people who hang around DRV and AFD respectively have different views on whether or not PORNBIO is to be followed? The so-called "bad-faith AFD" seems to stem in my mind from Spartaz' experience at DRV, where the feeling seems to be that PORNBIO no longer reflects consensus; but it failed because at AFD they still abide by it. This discrepancy (if I'm correct that there is one) seems like it's bound to cause trouble in the future. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999"> equazcion ( talk ) 21:19, 15 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * "This discrepancy (if I'm correct that there is one) seems like it's bound to cause trouble in the future." That's a very true and astute observation. I've recently come to the conclusion that taking pornography-related articles to DRV is a giant waste of time for this very reason, since there appears to be hardly any respect or deferance at all for PORNBIO (which is a guideline that I've had no input into myself) there. Again, a lot of these issues appear to predate my involvement in the Pornography Project, since around March of this year. Guy1890 (talk) 23:05, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Anyway, I'm not even talking about pornography mainly here; I'm talking about harassment. Disagreements are one thing, but people can't just invade every discussion I'm in with accusations (btw, does Spartaz have a different definition of "personalization" than I have?). Speaking of that, Spartaz, you keep accussing me of badgering and labeling people when all I'm doing is responding to other people's comments (and if it were badgering, wouldn't I have been warned via WP:UTM?). And per Guy1890, my intention is never to rub anyone the wrong way; I just feel Spartaz is mean toward me alone (if I'm wrong, prove me wrong right now). When I asked simple questions in discussions like this, people didn't want to answer them; opting instead to make comments like HW made above (thankfully, not many users did that this time around). And saying that I'm disrupting the discussion is ridiculous because I'm one of the people who tries to steer the discussion back to the original topic. For instance, if the validity of a guideline seems debatable, it should be discussed on the talk page of that guideline. Am I wrong about that?  Erpert  WHAT DO YOU WANT??? 02:17, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The irony of a prolific badgerer like Erpert complaining when I respond to his comments is far from lost on me. What relevance my admin bit has to that discussion is beyond me as I have taken no admin actions in regard to this DRV. I have been a regular at DRV since sometime in 2006 and I do not believe that any of my comments or opinions I have expressed are inconsistant with my practice over the last 7 years of advocating for BLPs and mainspace content to have proper sourcing as required in the GNG/N/V and BLP. That some editors believe that reconstituted press releases and industry awards that garner no real world coverage or commentary are sufficient to justify our maintaining unsourced BLPs does not mean that editors who disagree with this and respond to their badgering and frankly spurious objections and labelling of opponents by reference to community norms and standards are harressing them. Spartaz Humbug! 00:14, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There is at least one form of admin abuse occurring. Killiondude (talk) 00:35, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "That some editors believe that reconstituted press releases and industry awards that garner no real world coverage or commentary are sufficient to justify our maintaining unsourced BLPs"...that's really an unfortunate and not an especially fair representation of the kind of discussions that have gone on at DRV about these topics recently. Guy1890 (talk) 03:04, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It would be outstanding if any animosity or ridicule expressed here were met with an attempt to defuse it rather than escalate it. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999"> equazcion ( talk ) 00:40, 16 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, this is a behavioral situation that needs to be confronted; we are well part the point where defusing it is a plausible alternative. Just a month ago, Erpert made similar accusations against Spartaz, only to have them unanimously rejected here. Rather than accepting community guidance, Erpert has continued to cast aspersions on, and level accusations of bad faith against, editors whose positions he disagrees with. The failure to sanction him for this disruptive behavior has led, unfortunately, to at least two other editors who share his opinions to emulate his behavior (one of whom Erpert canvassed regarding this discussion). The latest dispute has been marked by some deliberate baiting of Spartaz, followed by complaints about his response. This is unacceptable, uncivil behavior, taken in order to gain advantage in a content dispute. Erpert has been repeatedly warned about this type of behavior for nearly two years (I believe this is the earliest occasion), but his refusal to conform to applicable standards has become more pronounced and more disruptive. Summarily closing this complaint as groundless will not likely produce immediate results, but it would be a good first step. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 01:27, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * HW, why do you keep bringing that old AfD up? You seem to think everything I do is in bad faith. I clearly explained why I opened this here instead of on the DRV page, so I'm not going to explain that again. Also, notifying Rebecca1990 about it is not canvassing; she is the one who opened the DRV, and WP:AN rules clearly state that she must be notified. And do you think it's disruptive behavior because there are other editors that share my opinion? I'm far from a battler, so if you think that's my intention, you're way off.
 * Disputes are very stressful and should be avoided whenever possible. You should all return to Deauxma's DRV discussion only if you can avoid getting sidetracked again. Most of Deauxma's DRV isn't even a discussion about Deauxma anymore. I keep reminding people not to get sidetracked but they keep on swaying away from the main topic somehow. Rebecca1990 (talk) 06:33, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

So, what are you asking for here,  Erpert  WHAT DO YOU WANT??? , an interaction ban? That is unlikely to be successful if you both continue to participate in DRV. I'm not taking sides here, I just wonder what resolution you are hoping to get by filing this here at AN. Liz <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 10:31, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I just want Spartaz to stop being so rough on me; that's all. I'm not asking for an interaction ban because I know that's impossible; you can't help running into different people here and there. (OAN: Per S. Marshall below, I'm actually not a member of WikiProject Pornography; in fact, I'm not a member of any WikiProject.)  Erpert  WHAT DO YOU WANT??? 16:38, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * As one of the DRV regulars who generally leans toward inclusion and has no problem with porn coverage, I do feel that there is a significant problem here. Partly there is badgering on the part of Erpert.  Partly there are editors that I would say show up to porn bio discussions with a clear leaning toward deletion.  But mostly because of WP:PORNBIO.  It does seem to create a SNG where folks are generally notable even though they really have no chance of meeting WP:N if you ignore press releases and reprints of press releases.  One could argue that's because mainstream news doesn't really cover these folks, so there is a cultural bias that the SNG addresses.  But one could also argue that these just aren't notable folks and in any case we shouldn't be writing articles based on press releases.  That fundamental issue needs to be resolved.  And I think it can be resolved if we work hard to identify actual reliable sources in the field and find a way to narrow the list of awards that we consider in the SNG.  Put another way, personalities are in part to blame here, but mostly its a policy problem.  And S Marshall notes, that's solveable by getting a wider range of folks involved in getting these issues (RSes for porn, awards that make one notable) resolved. Hobit (talk) 17:23, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This discussion is getting sidetracked as well. My main concern here is mistreatment, not pornography. Will Spartaz actually leave me alone for making simple comments that s/he might disagree with? (Also, Liz, in regards to your earlier comment, I actually rarely frequent DRV.)  Erpert  WHAT DO YOU WANT??? 06:29, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I really don't think Spartaz has a problem with you making simple comments, Erpert. Everyone's allowed to state their case.  I think the problem Spartaz has is with a combination of the sheer quantity of comments, responding to almost every individual point, their tone, the tactic of seeking to control and manage our discussion processes by channelling them onto the narrow track you think appropriate and the tactic of trying to rule out discussions you don't like as "irrelevant" to what you personally want to discuss.  You do not have authority to set or manage the topic of discussions.  I would advise you to acknowledge that your own behaviour is one of the problems we have here.— S Marshall  T/C 08:01, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't have the authority to do what? "Manage the topic of discussions"? What does that even mean? And you can't call "behavioral problem" just because you and I have different viewpoints.  Erpert  WHAT DO YOU WANT??? 17:58, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Close - This request was opened with conclusory phrases such as: harassment, being harassed, bad-faith, he doesn't like, apparent bias, attacking me, accusing me, people who don’t like, his real bias, berate me. Numerous conclusions are being made about Spartaz without any supporting consensus and there is no effort to seek consensus on any of these personal conclusions. AN is then asked to take action based on these personal conclusions. This thread is set up in a way that will not lead to a consensus regarding the basis for the request, but will bring in replies. When replied come into this thread, they are used as opportunity to continue leveling unsupported accusations. -- Jreferee (talk) 08:16, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Please could this not be closed quite yet? The accusation that DRV is being unfair on porn-related content is made by several editors above, and it seems to me that this is something that people reading this noticeboard can help us evaluate.— S Marshall  T/C 11:48, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Reformatted the discussion to create a thread to discuss DRV treatment of porn-related content below. -- Jreferee (talk) 15:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Stale AfD
Could an uninvolved admin please close Articles for deletion/Now That's What I Call Music! 86 (UK series). It's been open since 21 August with no comments since 30th. On 11 September the article was redirected to Now That's What I Call Music! discography. Cheers. Ritchie333 <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   11:24, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Discussion had been closed by an admin, but was undone by an unregistered user; I've reverted to the closed version. Peter&#160;James (talk) 18:23, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That's actually happened several times by anonymous users there. Since there's no real reason for anons to be editing there anymore anyway, I've semiprotected it. Seraphimblade Talk to me 18:29, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Watchlist oddity
My watchlist this morning contains several IPs adding the same link to 'archive.is' with the same edit summary (example one, two, and three). Linking to an online archive to maintain the integrity of our sources would appear to be a helpful activity, but is the link legitimate? The IPs have disparate geolocation (proxies?); is this sneaky link spam? --<b style="color:Navy;">Jezebel's</b> Ponyo <sup style="color:Navy;">bons mots 15:32, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know about the number using the same summary, but archive.is at least seems okay, and has some pages that archive.org and webcite don't. Chris857 (talk) 15:54, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

The legitimacy of archive.is is a matter of debate, but anonymously running bots over a worldwide proxy network is not. The additions of the links are being blocked by filters now, I've been blocking any new IP that tries, and the list of IPs that need to have all their contributions rolled back is at WP:ANI. I don't have a script for it, but I'm certain that someone does.&mdash;Kww(talk) 17:32, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Mop alert
If there's anyone around, there's a hella backlog at WP:AIV. I gotta go to work, myself. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:14, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Nooo problem, most people here are school children, and it's nearly half-four now so they'll just be settling in front of their computers. Which may or may not be in basements or trailers, I dunno. Have a good day! <b style="color:Green;">Basket </b><sub style="color:orange;">Feudalist 15:20, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * A totally irrelevant  and inaccurate comment.  Such  comments do  not  help  the serious work  of admins on  this page, and would also  be inappropriate anywhere else on  Wikipedia.. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:10, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Nonsense
THIS WAS DELETED BY (Redacted) SO I REPEAT: Mugginsx, who is MySweetMelissa? Re:this here? <b style="color:Green;">Basket </b><sub style="color:orange;">Feudalist 15:52, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I was working on two Wikipedias at once. Mybad. I answered you on your page but something keeps happening.  Is there a virus there? Mugginsx (talk) 16:16, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * My IP is not supposed to be revealed here. Would an administrator please remove.  This editor is one year old and apparently does not know this guideline.  Thanks Mugginsx (talk) 16:34, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes you have posted there and I have answered you each time; you ask if there is a virus on the page and then call me inexperienced? Your I.P. was treated like all vandalising-I.P's, and made public. Perhaps you would like to delete this message too? I don't care if you edit from an IP, but you now have TWO accounts on the English Wikipedia and seem to be going out of your way to NOT have to say so. <b style="color:Green;">Basket </b><sub style="color:orange;">Feudalist  16:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It is Nonsense as another experienced editor has told you on your talk page. Stop cluttering up the page and learn the guidelines. Mugginsx (talk) 19:29, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeeees... I'm afraid I take that kind of interjection with a pinch of salt. Far too timely, you see! Actually you probably don't. Never mind. I am willing to reply robustly, wherever I am questioned. In fact, let's keep it public here, rather than on my TP. Cheers. <b style="color:Green;">Basket </b><sub style="color:orange;">Feudalist 19:41, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Non-admin comment: Why is this on AN? I can't see anything that requires administrator intervention, or even anything that could be of interest to administrators. There is an ongoing discussion on User talk:You Can Act Like A Man (the user account behind the alias "BasketFeudalist"), a discussion that IMHO is an interesting case of attempted cyber bullying, where I have pointed "BasketFeudalist" to Wikipedia's rules regarding multiple accounts. Which, again IMHO, ought to be more than enough. And then I see this... <font face="Comic Sans MS" color="#164D0B">Thomas.W <font face="Comic Sans MS" color="#164D0B">talk to me  20:15, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This is here because the issue is not as simple as it  looks. Firstly,  (aka Basket Feudalist)  needs to  take a lesson  in  civility and adopt a more professional  approach  to  their interaction  with  others, while editors who  reveal  their IP either by  accident  or design must  understand the consequences. Warnings  to  IPs are always accompanied by  the caveat that  IP  addresses may  be shared and that  messages might  not  be addressed to  any  particular individual. Users of multiple accounts must  be prepared to  account  for their use. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:04, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

(nao)Hello!! Isn't this the Administrator's Noticeboard? Instead of removing the IP address from this discussion and revdeleting the edits made by the same (and requesting it to be oversighted), you are just watching the discussion? Mugginsx has already said that they want the IP address to be removed. What are you waiting for? ···V ani s che nu「m/Talk」 23:05, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 July 23
Can an admin please review this, it has been open for 2 months and needs a close - I am involved as I have !voted. GiantSnowman 11:14, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Amendment to Requests for arbitration/Scientology
The Arbitration Committee resolves by that

For the Arbitration Committee, Rschen7754 00:17, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Discuss this

Discretionary sanctions for transgender issues
The Arbitration Committee wishes to remind administrators that standard discretionary sanctions were authorised for all articles dealing with transgender issues in the Sexology case. For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:02, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

SPI Backlog
SPI is getting quite backed up. We have enough checkusers checking cases, but we need some more people administrating them. I'll try to take a shot at it tomorrow, but there is a tremendous list of cases that have been checked, and are awaiting administration and close. Instructions can be found at Sockpuppet_investigations/SPI/Administrators_instructions. If any administrators want to help but have questions you can drop any of the clerks about procedure, as well as myself. We can also be found in the irc channel. Anybody willing to help would be really greatly appreciated. NativeForeigner Talk 06:34, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Or if you want to be a clerk... we could use a few more! --Rschen7754 09:20, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

SUL account creation problem from 79.233.0.0/16 range
The 65536 IP range (registered to Deutsche Telekom AG) was blocked on 11:40, 8 July 2013 to expire 11:40, 8 January 2014 by a retired admin with "anon. only, account creation disabled" due to "Block evasion: Autonomous account creation is blocked from this range of IP addresses. Users wishing to edit under an account must request one here." which directs users to use Request an account which leads to https://toolserver.org/~acc/.

A user (meta:User:Xnrand) on IRC complained that SUL wasn't creating an account when using the tool. He stated: when trying to use https://toolserver.org/~acc/, I get I'm sorry, but the username you selected is already a part of a SUL account. Please try another username, or look at this page for more information on SUL.

I think a /16 range is too vast for a lengthy block causing collateral damage but I also suspect a significant amount of abuse was coming from this range. That said the range looks like regular household IPs and not that of schools & proxies we normally deal with so maybe the block duration could be a bit excessive.

However I would have thought SUL creation would not have been affected by the block. Before filing a bugzilla entry I wanted to get opinions on the matter.

-- A Certain White Cat chi? 12:52, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * WilliamH is also a former checkuser and was one when he made the block. MER-C 13:13, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * There's a sockpuppet investigation at Sockpuppet investigations/Sascha30/Archive, in which several IPs in the range were mentioned. If a block is still necessary it could probably be reduced to 79.233.0.0/17, but a checkuser would have to approve. Peter&#160;James (talk) 18:25, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

If the account is not created even when logging in it's definitely a bug, unless there's a global block - Bug 37765 was resolved as "won't fix" as this is the problem it would cause. Peter&#160;James (talk) 18:25, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I've checked the range. It's a /16 but a fairly quiet one. The block made was reasonable, and has minimal disruption considering. The abuse coming out of the range was persistent. Furthermore a block on a /17 would prove ineffective. The rangeblock needs to remain (in that anonymous users cannot edit) although it wouldn't be unreasonable to allow account creation, judging by the history of that SPI. NativeForeigner Talk 23:37, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * That's strange - I've looked at contributions and there are distinct areas of editing limited to certain parts of the range. The IPs associated with the sockpuppet case (54 in the category, plus others not tagged) are all between 79.233.0.65-79.233.86.118. It may be possible for a user to choose where to edit, which point of view and tone to present, or whether to use an account or edit logged out, based on the IP address they are randomly given, it just seems unlikely, particularly for this type of disruption. Peter&#160;James (talk) 01:19, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Using CU it is evident there are users that have edited on these areas outside of the /17. However looking at it again you are correct in your assessment that the /17 would be adequately effective. (Only a few IP users outside of it, they are stale as far as action is concerned) NativeForeigner Talk 09:13, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Can Storming Across Heaven redirect to Dragonland?
Can an administrator create Storming Across Heaven with "#REDIRECT Dragonland" in the body? Thank you very much. --Jax 0677 (talk) 13:23, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks like that has already been done, but I'll remove the redlink. (FYI, you don't have to be an admin to do that.) ;)  Erpert  WHAT DO YOU WANT??? 18:11, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds like it could have been a title blacklist problem to me. Graham 87 06:46, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Request either 2-way interaction ban or dismis this 1-way interaction ban
This is getting borderline WP:GAMING, as the very editor I'm banned to interact with has made himself involved into an AfD discussion and there's little room at all for me to contest what he's saying.

How is it that an editor is allowed to interact with me? And I'm not even able to make a stance? I suggest either 2-way interaction ban or dismiss this interaction ban in general.Lucia Black (talk) 04:39, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Unless your interaction ban has unusual provisions, you're allowed (and indeed expected) to mention the user in question and to bring up links to bolster your point. The discussion can't easily happen without context, and we're not in the business of issuing superinjunctions or prohibiting banned people from discussing their bans, except when the banned people have already disrupted the ban-discussion process.  Nyttend (talk) 05:17, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * currently I'm banned from 3 months (down to 2 months now) from interacting with this editor. Unfortunately even after I bring a subject up, it doesn't stop this editor from getting involved. You can see here Articles for deletion/Spira (Final Fantasy). And even as I attempt to go around his comments it becomes difficult.Lucia Black (talk) 05:22, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Lucia Black has been warned more than a half a dozen times about violating the topic/interaction ban, both in discussions and on her talk page. Violations include things I am not even been party to, and on pages I don't even edit, including a warning by Canterbury Tail on Sept 2. Prior to that Lucia decided to bring up the conflict for which she was topic banned on Only in death's page and got warned. Lucia argued further and got warned by Bushranger too. After repeatedly violating the spirit and letter of the topic/interaction bans, Lucia got a 48 hour block on Sept 5. The reason was because Lucia started attacking me on GAN calling me a "GA Nom ninja" after I put a few hours into fixing something I made clear I was going to work on even prior to her topic and interaction ban. I did not even reply or speak to her, but it was a tacit, but clear violation. Lucia Black also tried to get this topic ban/interaction removed before, unsuccessfully. Yes, I posted my Keep !vote at the AFD, but Lucia should not have replied to it and Bushranger warned her about that. Also, before fixing the page I addressed Bushranger and explained how I felt forced to reply to the AFD and that I could easily save the page from deletion. I have since rewritten much of the page and added multiple sources and found paywalled ones that assert notability. The reason for this discussion is to allow her to argue with me because Lucia wants the article deleted and does not want me to rescue it. Anyways, I've said my peace so I'm going to remain silent unless asked directly to answer questions. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:10, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Clarify, please. Does Lucia Black's ban prohibit her from interacting with ChrisGualtieri, or does it apply to someone else, or to multiple people, etc.?  A link to the ban discussion would help everyone.  Nyttend (talk) 06:39, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I've already explained to Canterbury Avatar: The Last Airbender/The Legend of Korra doesn't fall into WP:ANIME's scope as its not a series from japan, but the topic ban isn't even clear on that, so I avoided it for the sake of avoiding any more issues on trigger-happy admins who consider those series anime or manga.


 * Despite being blocked for 48 hour ban due to bringing up an issue "related" to the topic ban, it was still about something much more general which is GAN an article without consent from the editors who made significant contribution. In which there is an etiquette that you should inform the editor or even suggest GA nomination if they made significant contribution as a sign of recognizing their edits. The fact that you only did minor expansion, and GANed it shows that your contributions overshadow mine. And this is an issue many editors have brought up in the past. Recently Folken del Fanel has argued the same with you over Neon Genesis Evangelion (anime).


 * However: NONE of this should be relevant, and it only looks bad on you ChrisGualtieri as your the editor pushing for this interaction ban based on events that don't concern you (which again...only serves to defame). Recently you also attempted to report me to ANI because I attempted to revert a comment of my own talkpage just because it seemed like I was modifying his comment. It just shows you want to get rid of me. You're only causing more conflict between us and you have no intention of fixing it. but the issue is you can enter any discussion I'm involved in and force me to not respond to any key points you bring up. So if another editor believes what you say simply for not contesting. You can see how a discussion can close quite easily. That's why I proposed either A) 2-way interaction ban (this is definitely my first choice.) Or B) Dismiss the interaction ban. I'm already severely limited from interacting with you due to the topic ban anyways. Anything outside would be on you getting yourself involved.

@Nyttend: Yes, I (Lucia Black) am banned from interacting with ChrisGualtieri. I currently don't have the link and its trouble enough.Lucia Black (talk) 06:53, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it might help to avoid editing similar topics of interest. After all the wiki has a wide topic range. Just a thought. -- A Certain White Cat chi? 12:55, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I am already topic banned from anime and manga. I think the interaction ban is overkill espeially for 3 months.


 * While Chris isn't interaction banned, I would suggest he voluntarily avoid commenting in discussions LB has opened to avoid the appearance of baiting her to violate her restriction, although I'm sure that was not his intention. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:18, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Diff [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=566652215&oldid=566652176], found on WP:Editing Restrictions. Lucia, instead of disagreeing with CG, simply wait until other editors post. E.g. on the Afd New Age Retro Hippie, ProtoDrake, and Tarc are supporting deletion, so simply agree / amplify what they're saying without referencing CG. NE Ent 16:38, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Not the point. The problem is this editor (even when uninvolved) attempts to report me everytime hance he gets the chance, and it just causes more tension. And even now he shows he wants to keep the interaction ban with reasons unrelated to the ban itself. I've had enough of this mudslinging. It should be made so both of us don't get near eachother.


 * I believe if no action is done now, he's going to do it again and again.Lucia Black (talk) 16:48, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The quickest and easiest way to avoid interaction with CG would be to not edit where he edits. There's lots of stuff to edit around here - plenty of room for every one, even with the topic ban on anime and manga (and, I note, ANI). Mark Arsten makes a good point, above - and on that basis I'm going to join him in asking ChrisGualtieri to refrain from commenting in discussions you've started or in which you are already a participant. I don't see a need to extend the interaction ban, though CG may wish to voluntarily agree to leave you be. But there was no consensus for a mutual ban, and I'm starting to see why. If a situation is frustrating you, as this one clearly is, then find something else to do - and come back calmer in a few months. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 17:14, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm already topic ban and I'm well versed in similar media. So the only other space I'm familiar with is video games and as you can plainly see. So what you're suggesting is "if chris makes his way there, go somewhere else). Which to me translates as me being pushed around.


 * I'm tired of admins asking for me to being the calm one. Yes I am fustrated, but its not affecting my judgement. And I ChrisGualtieri manages to bring more conflict even when I can't interact with him. How is that fair? I wish admins would judge more of the situation that caused the stress and not the level of fustration itself.Lucia Black (talk) 17:36, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * ....which is why I've asked Chris to leave you alone. You two edit in the same areas, which is part of what started this mess. If you go edit somewhere else, and he magically follows you there - put it this way, your case just got a lot stronger. And if he doesn't? You get a vacation from someone who is clearly and obviously causing you a lot of stress. I understand that you don't want to edit outside this topic, but please consider that a plan b. See also my comment below. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 01:34, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * - Any chance I could talk you into avoiding Lucia Black for the remainder of her interaction ban with you? I understand that you are not under sanction, but I think it would go a long way to settling this drama down. It would be appreciated. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 01:34, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * While I do not like the idea of being unable to comment on deletion discussions, I believe it may be the only option to prevent further conflict. I'll refrain from edits relating to the Square Enix project after this AFD, okay? I'd like to remain free to edit other video game articles during this time, considering the related GANs (like my re-nom of Persona 4) and subject matter around visual novels. Would that be acceptable? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:14, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Given that there have been no objections, that seems like it'll work. Thanks. I think we can close this. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 01:25, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

abuser Yopie
I warn that to the abuser Yopie. Yopie only phanatically delete (Yopie is neither a linguist nor a native speaker!) the word Czechia,, , here with Vandalism.

And Yopie do not understand history, , because Yopie do not delete for example Japan or Lapland, Yopie delete only the word Czechia!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.168.13.98 (talk) 14:04, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Boomerang incoming! IP 62.168.13.98, I'm afraid to tell you that it is you whose edits and conduct are problematic. Instead of calling an established editor abusive and a vandal, you should have provided reliable sources for your edits in the first place. You've already been blocked for edit warring and it seems to me that you are still merely pushing your point of view. So I strongly recommend that you read up on the Czechia issue as you have been advised here. Please see also 'what is not vandalism', because Yopie's edits did not constitute vandalism. If you continue your confrontational route you will be certainly be blocked again for harrassment and disruptive editing. De728631 (talk) 14:43, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Removing one thing that doesn't fit and leaving something else in a long list is very different from actively adding something that doesn't fit; presumably Yopie simply didn't notice bits such as Japan. I have no clue whether the Romans were aware of the Laps or Lapland (let alone whether they had a concept of "Finland" or "Poland"), but I've removed Tartary and Japan.  Nyttend (talk) 17:04, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

History merge
Can someone move the history of User:Tomica/Sandbox9 to "Talk That Talk (Rihanna song)".--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:11, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Should be ✅. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  15:27, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You lost the original redirect from several days before the sandbox.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:16, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a deleted edit in the history of the article, right now. Keeping the redirect (which was by Calvin999) in the page history would be confusing, since it would interrupt the flow of the page history.  Nyttend (talk) 20:36, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban, some doubt about edits being allowed
Are these edits allowed within the topic ban for Laurel Lodged published here: Editing_restrictions? I have some doubt, so I prefer to check. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 08:25, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Not really knowing the editor or the circumstances of the ban, my opinion was tentative (Banner asked me on my talk page) but I'm inclined to say the edit certainly violates the spirit of the topic ban. Drmies (talk) 14:03, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * She is under "editing restriction from adding, removing or altering the names or significance of Irish counties" and the two edits (the first being |this) imparts a change that modifies the significance (via categorical listing) of County Limerick which is a different county in Munster. The same edit also did this for County Tipperary which is further east of County Clare and the "epon" cat of "History of County Clare" is by all accounts modifying the historical impact of the Dál gCais on the area; essentially removing them categorically from the geographical area to essentially omit the tribe's control of land in County Limerick as noted at King Brian Boru's page. If not violating the letter, it violates the spirit and lowers the significance of the tribe which by all accounts seems to have had control of land and influence in those counties. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:06, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed --- she's violating the spirit of her ban <font style="color:blue;background:white"> KoshVorlon .<font style="color:white;background:blue;"> We are all Kosh ... 16:28, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The change from Tipperary to North Tipperary violates the restrictions (as well as being a non-existent category), but moving to the relevant subcategory would be to increase precision, rather than to reduce significance; following the revert by User:The Banner the article became one of only three directly in Category:County Limerick. The explanation of the "eponymous categories" change isn't clear, whether it's being done consistently, and whether consensus exists for changes such as this, as it's a change between two options in WP:EPON. Peter&#160;James (talk) 20:46, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * So that's a "yes, it violates the ban"? Drmies (talk) 01:04, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The Tipperary change does. Peter&#160;James (talk) 10:26, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Defence Firstly, gender check:male. Secondly, I am dismayed that the nominator chose to go down this path rather than engaging in the Dal gCais talk page. At the first opportunity I went to the talk page and explained my position. All I got was gnomic two word responses. Requests for clarification went unanswered. At no point in the "discussion" was the question raised as to whether or not the edits were in violation of the topic ban. Had that been raised, I would have been happy to reply per the third point below. So this is overkill and this is the wrong forum. Thirdly, it is my opinion that the Dal gCais is an important part of the history of the region. While their fortunes ebbed and flowed over the centuries, at their most stable period, their rule extended over most of what would be now known as counties Clare, Limerick and North Tipperary. At no point did they hold sway over South Tipperary which was held by their rivals in Munster, the Eóganachta. So precision demands that a more wide-embracing use of County Tipperary be avoided. It goes without saying that none of these geographic areas existed at the time of the height of Dal gCais power; they were Norman inventions centuries later. Why then the removal of the categories? Simple. They already existed for the articles eponymous category - Category:Dál gCais. Why have double directs? How was this going to improve navigation? Everything that was needed for the Dal gCais article - and more - was contained in its eponymous category. It is sufficient for the article to have no other categories than its parent; everything else is clutter and superfluous. You will note that I did not delete any county category from the parent category. Instead, I increased the category precision from a generic "County Foo" to a precise "History of County Foo". Indeed I added a category - North Tipperary - on the assumption that it too would have the same county naming structure. I was surprised that the county did not have a History sub-cat. It was my intention to create it later but did not want to muddy the waters once the nominator's reversions kicked in. None of the above violates the letter or spirit of the ban.
 * I recommended that the nominator be asked to cool his/her jets and engage more faithfully in future before taking the sledgehammer to solve the nut situation. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:58, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry if this sounds insensitive, but I am not seeing a defense to why you violated your topic ban and on the contrary it sounds like you knowingly violated it instead of discussing it on the talk pages. Something which you are allowed and highly encouraged to do by explicit wording of the editing restriction. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:00, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, my mistake. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 13:56, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

genre warring by user Y45ed after returning from block for genre warring


User Y45ed was blocked on 3 September 2013 for genre warring. Since returning from that block, this editor has resumed genre warring and adding genres without sources or consensus. This editor has been warned multiple times about this disruptive behaviour, both before and after the original block.

Diffs:
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * In this instance he reverted a properly sourced genre while claiming "Source doesn't mention thrash metal", though the source states "The origins of thrash metal can be traced down to two songs – ‘Stone Cold Crazy’ by Queen and ‘Symptom of the Universe’ by Black Sabbath."

There are also several instances in which this editor sourced the genre changes with citations that do not actually confirm in any way what is being added or altered.


 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 

This is classic genre warrior behaviour. The vast majority of this editor's Wikipedia time is spent altering the genre field of dozens of music infoboxes. Obviously the block didn't get the message across. Perhaps another is necessary. <i style="color:#999999;">ChakaKong</i><sup style="color:#0033FF;">Let's talk about it 21:50, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh please, for each of those edits i have either cited a source or explained the edit in the Edit Summary. Whoever reads those diffs, please, unlike this user, just use some common sense, and read my descriptions, sources, and, if you need to, previous edits. Don't just assume this unreasonable, ignorant user is right just because he can't seem to stop hogging the moral high-ground. Thank you. Y45ed (talk) 22:08, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * No, for "each of those edits" you did not; the first just has a "because I said so" edit summary, the fourth has no edit summary or reference, and the fifth has an edit summary that borders on WP:SYNTH. Also please remember WP:NPA. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:21, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The first, i don't know why ChakaKong is still crying about, since that problem was solved,, the whole article now redirects to the album it's on. Get over it. The fourth was based on the agreement on the talk page, and the fifth, you could have just given me a friendly notice to inform me that what I did was wrong. Please just read them carefully, and don't automatically go with what ChakaKong says just because he is, as some people may say, "up his own arse". Y45ed (talk) 22:33, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * You obviously just don't get it. <i style="color:#999999;">ChakaKong</i><sup style="color:#0033FF;">Let's talk about it 22:38, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Right, anything you're going to add to that, or are you just going to leave it as one super-effective, jarring, mysterious line? Y45ed (talk) 22:43, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll simply add that you are now also in violation of WP:NPA. <i style="color:#999999;">ChakaKong</i><sup style="color:#0033FF;">Let's talk about it 22:51, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Your assumption of bad faith is disturbing, as I did, in fact, "read them carefully", and if you continue with your personal attacks then you will be blocked regardless of the validity or not of your edits. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:51, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * ChakaKong's "assumption of bad faith" towards me is also pretty disturbing, as my edits do not mean to "hurt the article" or "vandalize" it. All my edits are done purely to help or improve an article, not do damage it in any way. Let me also add that the diff "68" was a misunderstanding by the reverter, who obviously didn't read the source properly. The link i provided takes you to the track listing of On Air - Live at the BBC Volume 2. When you scroll down, you will find text that says "view track details". Click on that, scroll down to "You Can't Do That", and you will find that it calls it a "swaggering R&B workout". That is why i added Rhythm and blues to the song's genres, my source was just not read properly. Y45ed (talk) 16:38, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have no doubts whatsoever that you are attempting to help the project, not consciously harm it. There is no assumption of bad faith. The issue from the start has been your flagrant disregard for the guidelines and the fundamental principles by which Wikipedia operates. The last time you had your editing privileges suspended you were strongly advised to familiarize yourself with these guidelines during your time away, but you apparently came back with a chip on your shoulder instead. This is a collaboratively edited encyclopedia and your etiquette is lacking. If your goal is to share your opinions about music, start a blog instead. <i style="color:#999999;">ChakaKong</i><sup style="color:#0033FF;">Let's talk about it 17:35, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Need to fix a move
User:Jujhar.pannu has moved content from Amrit Sanskar to Amrit Sanchar by cut and paste. Due to that, the history and all the talk page content is left behind. Can an admin delete Amrit Sanchar and move Amrit Sanskar properly to Amrit Sanchar. --<font size="3" face="Corsiva Hebrew" color="green">Vigyani talkਯੋਗਦਾਨ 04:31, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅ Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  04:42, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. --<font size="3" face="Corsiva Hebrew" color="green">Vigyani talkਯੋਗਦਾਨ 04:52, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Have blocked User:ChetArthurNow
For 24 hours for trying to edit war in referenced content. Have edited the article before thus if other wish to change the block feel free. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:29, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This was a good block, preventing damage to the article. Plenty of warnings were issued. Everything checks out ok in my opinion. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:27, 23 September 2013 (UTC) You might like to try posting at the edit warring notice board next time, where quick blocks are usually issued for cases as clear-cut as this. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:37, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Happy-melon invoking IAR inappropriately


has closed Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 September 10 as delete despite the lack of consensus to delete, the fact that these redirects meet the requirements of the WP:RFD reasons, and the fact that these redirects are all immune to deletion as they are PNR redirects. I wish to discuss this here, and the redirects which are now breaking multiple templates and userscripts and project should be restored during this discussion to prevent widespread disruption. Technical 13 (talk) 12:33, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * He left a rationale for his deletion that was rather detailed; my only comment is that "Creates problems that need to be cleaned up" is usually not a reason to keep something in a deletion discussion, nor is it a reason to overturn a deletion. This seems like a run-of-the mill deletion review request, and really belongs at WP:DRV and not here.  There is absolutely no misconduct here, merely an administrator acting within their discretion in closing a closely divided discussion, and then an objection to that closure. DRV is the correct venue for this, not here.  -- Jayron  32  13:08, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Disclosure: delete !voter. H-M did not invoke IAR in his close. He did not mention it at all, contrary to the title of this thread.
 * I'd also like to point out that WP:DRV would be the correct venue for this, not that I think it'll go anywhere. OSborn arfcontribs. 13:11, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm suggesting that should have his actions as an administrator reviewed.  WP:DRV is not the appropriate place for that.  Even the nominator of the Pseudo-Namespace (which shouldn't have been nominated at WP:RfD in the first place due to its immunity to it, which was ignored) declared that there was no consensus in the discussion and because of that it should have been closed as such.  Which  blatantly and maliciously (okay, maybe not maliciously, but I'm upset and have a right to be) ignored.  I'm going to take the rest of the day off to practice CALM and I hope to see some reasonable discussion here when I return.  Thank you. Technical 13 (talk) 13:30, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Did you politely ask Happy-melon for an explanation? I don't see a diff in your original post.  When a user's first action is to complain in a public forum without even attempting to speak with the other editor, that's a red flag that somebody might be a trouble-maker, rather than a problem-solver. Jehochman Talk 13:51, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If you are contesting a deletion, Technical 13, do it at DRV. If that results in overturning the deletion, and during that discussion it emerges that the closing admin may have acted improperly, then bring it here. Do not try and use this noticeboard as a shortcut to getting your way in a deletion issue.
 * By the way, you don't have "a right to be upset". Trying to paint yourself as a victim will not win you any sympathy. Also, I certainly do not appreciate the unsubtle implications of the comment "I hope to see some reasonable discussion here when I return", and I would counsel you not to take that tone here. —  Scott  •  talk  13:56, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Missal
Please delete old interwiki in the article Missal. It is protected for me. Thanks Šárka Praha (talk) 14:50, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I see 15 interwiki links at Missal. Which one is the "old" one? Beeblebrox (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * ✅ as a non-admin, since the page was only semi-protected (though I'm not quite sure why it's protected in the first place). For future reference, you can request edits on a page's talk page, or, in the unlikely event that the talk page is protected too, at WP:RFED.  Xe was referring to the "oldschool" interwiki links that were previously on the page; 7 were on Wikidata, and 2 were links to redirects to foreign-language versions of Roman Missal.  Sorry for any confusion I caused in the delay between fulfilling the request and posting here.  Something came up right after I removed the links. —  PublicAmpers <font color="FF1493">&#38; (main account • talk • block) 15:13, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Comments requested before I implement consensus at WP:VisualEditor/Default State RFC
<div class="metadata" style="background-color: #edeaff; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">
 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Most of you are familiar with the Visual Editor problem. Despite an overwhelming consensus that the tool should be opt-in (see WP:VisualEditor/Default State RFC, which had the highest response rate of any Wikipedia RFC that I am aware of ) WMF has insisted on keeping the editor opt-out, and issued a response that basically dismissed the community's concerns at Wikipedia talk:VisualEditor/Default State RFC.

WMF cooperation isn't actually required to implement the consensus at the RFC, though. It's fully within any admin's power to replace MediaWiki:common.js with User:Kww/common3.js. That would have the effect of requiring an opt-in to use VE (using the existing preference), and would remove access to VE from IP editors, just as the RFC required. Please don't do so just yet, as it needs another test round due a recent edit.

Before I proceed to implement community consensus, I invite comment and code review.&mdash;Kww(talk) 17:08, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Note that as a result of Catrope's review, it is apparent that User:Kww/anonpatch.css will need to be applied to common.js as well.&mdash;Kww(talk) 06:13, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Live

 * And, WMF has officially made English Wikipedia opt-in and removed the temporary change.

For the record, I will point out that I have demanded that Jdforrester retract his false accusation that I deployed "known broken code". It did exactly what I intended it to do, and passed all tests.&mdash;Kww(talk) 23:46, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Poll

 * No See Phillipe's request [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AKww&diff=573890336&oldid=573812058]. Disrupting users' experience -- increasing load either client side or server side -- to prove a point is childish -- let's key our toys in the pram. WMF is the owner of this website, and they have every legal and moral right to be stupid stupid and hurt the encyclopeida, even if we don't like it. Getting into a pissing contest will not be a positive step, and they could simply revert the edit per wp:office. NE Ent 17:52, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * They are not just being stupid, they're hurting the encyclopedia. Yngvadottir (talk) 17:53, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Amended. Nonetheless I've never believed another's stupidity justified my own. NE Ent 18:03, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The technical problems alluded to in Phillipe's request have been corrected, and his foundational premise is flawed: WMF has been approached about this many times, and is the group that is refusing to compromise. I would certainly hope that no one from WMF would abuse WP:OFFICE in a way that did not relate to a legal issue, and we could freely revert such a change.&mdash;Kww(talk) 17:59, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm a little confused about the load issues. Would this actually increase server or client load more than it currently is with VisualEditor displayed? <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999"> equazcion ( talk ) 18:12, 22 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * An earlier version did, and that's the context of Phillipe's comments.&mdash;Kww(talk) 18:16, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * NE Ent: It's difficult to read your comments as more than an attempt to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt. For example, you mentioned a possible office revert. Which part of that policy specifically would you say is applicable here? Please feel free to quote liberally. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:26, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * See terms of use and common sense NE Ent 18:40, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You've pointed to a section about how Wikimedia wikis deal with long-term problematic users. It seems pretty clear, at least to me, that you're grasping at straws. You've come pretty close to comparing a long-time admin in good standing with the likes of Grawp. Please stop. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:46, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The WMF rarely edits Wikipedia directly outside of legal reasons, and if they abused their access to administrator privileges (i.e. editing the common js and css) it would make them a laughingstock in outside media. Heck, this whole thing makes them already look like a laughingstock, so I'm not sure that kind of misuse of WP:OFFICE would be out of the question. ~ Charmlet -talk- 18:48, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The WMF does, however, regularly make bold and sweeping changes to the site's software, which is their prerogative. Every single week, configuration changes and new code gets deployed. Mucking with content is something WMF only does if it's really forced to. Managing the software is something it does literally every day. <span style="font-family:Georgia, serif;">Steven Walling &bull; talk   00:39, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. If WMF allows other projects to opt-in rather than opt-out, as it appears they have, then they have no basis for ignoring consensus here.   GregJackP   Boomer!   18:14, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, of course. Not once in this whole farrago has the WMF explained why the RFC at de.wiki resulted in VE being switched to opt-in, yet an RFC here with a similar result was completely ignored (and, indeed, met with a response which basically told the community "we know best, and we're going to ignore your concerns"). Coming on the back of the Notifications fiasco, I can only assume that the WMF has lost sight of the fact that the people who actually create the vast majority of quality pages on its website are its regular community, and it needs to take notice of them. Perhaps actually implementing the results of a very clear community RfC will actually achieve that. Not to mention that it will save huge amouts of editor's time which is currently being taken up with fixing pages still being broken by VE pn a regular basis - such as these. Black Kite (talk) 18:18, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Neither Philippe nor NE Ent are in a position to evaluate the technical aspects of this proposal. Previous versions of the code would have needlessly hit the MediaWiki Web API. The current code being proposed for deployment should be fine. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:22, 22 September 2013 (UTC) I should add that if Philippe, NE Ent, or anyone else has criticisms of the code being proposed for deployment, they are of course strongly encouraged to speak up. Please point to specific problems in the code. Vague and general statements about the code's unsuitability should simply be discarded as attempts to unfairly influence the discussion. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:33, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You're quite right that I'm not competent to evaluate the code myself. Assuredly, I wouldn't then post that it was problematic code unless I was pretty sure of it. I've been assured by our engineering group that the code is still badly flawed.  I have requested an analysis of that that I can post, knowing that you'd want specifics (in fact, it wouldn't be fair to say that without specifics), so hold tight - I think they are working on it now.  But they assure me that the script as currently written - contrary to MZ's assurances - is not, in fact, fine, and that if implemented, would create an unacceptable load on the servers. If nothing else, please don't proceed with this code until our engineering team can weigh in on it.  That's not a matter of consensus, it's a matter of ensuring the basic reliability of the site.
 * Addendum: it's been suggested that the WMF might use the WP:OFFICE policy as a vehicle to block this.  I would personally not support that, and I'm the person most frequently asked to make OFFICE actions.  That policy is written specifically to address content issues - it does not address core site maintenance or feature issues.  That's not to say that the WMF wouldn't revert the code - I honestly don't know whether or not we would - but we wouldn't dilute the WP:OFFICE policy to do so.  That policy is sacrosanct, as far as I'm concerned - we won't misuse it, because that weakens it for future, legitimate uses.  So let's just take that off the table right now, okay?  Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 21:14, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for taking the office policy off of the table.
 * This is the relevant diff being discussed here. Awaiting any and all feedback. --MZMcBride (talk) 21:39, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * And please bear in mind, Philippe, the issue is not whether it's less efficient than a server-side implementation. Yes, it is, but I believe it to be well within the range of tasks typically done in common.js. If you would perform the task on the server as was requested of you, the efficiency issues would all disappear.&mdash;Kww(talk) 21:47, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd rather hear this from the developers, so we at least know who is arguing with MZMcBride over the code... Maybe then MZMcBride can work with whoever doesn't like the code to improve it! The ball is in your court - let the community implement the current code, or work for a better solution that still implements the huge consensus forming here that the other consensus will be implemented somehow. ~ Charmlet -talk- 22:09, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The code fails the basic software quality of not meeting the functional requirements of the owner (that's WMF, not you or me) of the site. NE Ent 18:59, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's increasingly clear that you have a very distorted view of how Wikimedia operates. --MZMcBride (talk) 19:07, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * As opposed to the existing code, which fails the functional requirement of actually improving the encylopedia - as per the results of the RfC. Black Kite (talk) 19:11, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. We've been assured it will not hurt the servers, and it will assuredly help the editors, and avoid further damaging the project, which the WMF appears to have forgotten is why we're here. That plus a clear consensus. Yngvadottir (talk) 18:32, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Wikipedia is run via consensus decisions from its community of users. That's the basis of everything we do, and arguably it's the reason we're all actually here. We're not here to implement traffic increase strategies determined by some committee; if we were, and had known that from the get-go, I doubt many of us would've been interested in getting involved in the first place. A foundation owns the site and made WP:OFFICE to tell us the various rights they nevertheless reserve, and that's fine, but they continue to claim they uphold the original ideal that this encyclopedia is a community-run entity. That's a tough claim for them to vigilantly maintain in practice, especially in the wake of the power this encyclopedia now wields thanks to us. Sadly there's been an evident, gradual trend towards it becoming mere lip service. I think it's our responsibility to make them prove the ideals that keep us here when necessary, or else be forced to change their party line. It's only fair that we should know exactly who we're working for based on something more than empty words. So long as this action doesn't contradict WP:OFFICE and it won't increase load on either side, let's implement the community's well-established consensus. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999"> equazcion ( talk ) 18:50, 22 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - It's about time someone stood up to the pen-pushers and incompetents in the WMF. Regardless of that fact, community consensus was clear that this is the way forward - I may not see eye-to-eye with Kww on everything, but I respect them for having the guts to stick their neck out on this one. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 19:22, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per community consensus. Andreas JN 466 19:48, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support — →Davey 2010→ →Talk to me!→  19:58, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. Please go ahead and implement the RFC result. It is up to the community alone to decide what has to be done.--Aschmidt (talk) 20:32, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support implementation of community consensus. The WMF's failure (or refusal) to provide an explanation of why the parallel de-wiki determination cannot be similarly implemented here is at best disquieting. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 21:10, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support -- Technical 13 (talk) 21:19, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:48, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, and I believe the message this will effectively send is "go pound sand". Tarc (talk) 23:38, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose NE Ent hit the nail on the head with "Getting into a pissing contest will not be a positive step". Breaking deployed features and pretending you don't need to collaborate with the site's technical leadership is a road to pain and conflict, not consensus and a better editor for all. Furthermore, site JS and CSS were frankly not made to implement this complex and far-reaching of a change, which is why you're probably going to create performance problems like MZMcBride told you. You can try this, but don't say people didn't warn you when bad things happen, like the API breaking and readers getting a screwed-up experience. The VisualEditor team (of which I am not a member) was able to show an ability to compromise and rollback some of the bolder aspects of the VE launch. I encourage us to meet them halfway, as a community. <span style="font-family:Georgia, serif;">Steven Walling &bull; talk   00:33, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If you read the comments above, Steven, you will see that I have addressed the issues that MZMcBride had, and he agrees with that assessment. My first version hit the API unnecessarily hard.&mdash;Kww(talk) 00:41, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If you did, that's good. I still don't see why we need to get in to a fight over this. Today less than 10% of edits an hour come from VisualEditor. The thing is being used by a minority of people in beta mode, as requested by the community. It's not breaking the site en masse and anonymous/new people are mostly using wikitext to edit these days. There is no emergency that requires forcing this issue right now. <span style="font-family:Georgia, serif;">Steven Walling &bull; talk   00:46, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, earlier versions of the code were not as performant. The proposed code being discussed here is much better.
 * SW: The frustration levels are so high on the community's side due to VisualEditor/Default State RFC and the response to it (found on the talk page).
 * I think everyone agrees that there aren't easy answers here, but there is obviously something to be said for wiki sovereignty and (overwhelming) community consensus. --MZMcBride (talk) 01:00, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That argument smacks of WP:POINT to me. I don't care about making a point to WMF that we are fully "sovereign". This isn't geopolitics. It's about doing what's best for the thousands of editors and millions of readers of Wikipedia. Using an ugly hack to disable VE in local CSS/JS is not what's best, not when it's a optional, beta feature that a relatively tiny number of edits are made with. <span style="font-family:Georgia, serif;">Steven Walling &bull; talk   01:15, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Steven, given that you are a WMF employee, you have a conflict of interest here. It would have been better to declare it, just like Philippe did above. Andreas JN 466 01:24, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * SW: I don't think anyone is trying to disrupt Wikipedia and I'm not sure it's very helpful to suggest otherwise.
 * While I might agree with you regarding the scope of VisualEditor (optional, beta feature), hundreds of editors have come together to state (emphatically) that they disagree with the deployment timeline. Honest question: When and how do you think it's appropriate to discount such a community consensus? --MZMcBride (talk) 01:27, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:POINT is about doing something just to make a point. This is something that has overwhelming consensus. That's why it's getting put through. If it also makes a point, so be it -- that's not a bad thing, and never is. Any time we follow policies we believe in we're making a point to some degree. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999"> equazcion ( talk ) 01:31, 23 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * Andreas: I declare my employment on my userpage and use a separate WMF account when necessary, for the purpose of separating work/volunteering. I was elected as an admin four years before I ever drew a paycheck from WMF, so a post on AN is something I'm pretty well cleared to participate in as a Wikipedian. MZ: I am not here to make constitutional arguments. I want to do what's right in this case. If it was right to disable VE this way, I'd support it. The discussion is to gauge the temperature of the community when it comes to KWW's proposal, not to discuss hypotheticals. <span style="font-family:Georgia, serif;">Steven Walling &bull; talk   01:36, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't say you shouldn't participate, only that you have a conflict of interest and didn't declare it here. Andreas JN 466 01:42, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * As the Texas State Board of Nursing says to nurses - it's not possible to separate the knowledge from the person. In essence, once you became employed, you lost your ability to contribute to discussions only as a community member. You cannot separate your foundation employment from yourself. By the way, the TXBN said that in response to a nurse asking if she went on a camping trip for a scouting organization as a parent, would she be required to use her skills. It fits nicely here, in my opinion, as Steven cannot comment here without it being a comment from a Wikimedia Foundation employee, no matter how much he tries to separate the two (volunteer and employee). ~ Charmlet -talk- 04:14, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Steven, I think its pretty dishonest and unfair to state that "Breaking deployed features and pretending you don't need to collaborate with the site's technical leadership is a road to pain and conflict..." when that is exactly what the WMF did and continues to do in relation to the community. The community asked and then begged for the WMF to pull back and regroup after the massive and ogoing failure of VE, the WMF refused so we did an RFC and hundreds of editors concurred to pull back on VE. Again the WMF declined so now, the community is doing what is in its capacity. If you or the WMF doesn't like it, then you should have worked with the community rather than tell us you know better what we need and want. If you want to criticize about working together then you should try looking in the mirror.71.126.152.253 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:59, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, the issue can always be revisited in a future RFC in six months or a year. —Locke Cole • t • c 01:32, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Those (Redacted) should NOT be able to overrule community consensus on this issue! PantherLeapord&#124;My talk page&#124;My CSD log 01:51, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, in this thread alone, I've seen staff referred to as "pen-pushers", "incompetent", and "pricks". In the meantime, I've sat here and taken it.  I get that you're frustrated, but civility is one of the five pillars of this website, and it's sorely lacking here.  The WMF may have it's flaws, but I don't see any of our staff out here calling people names. I'm appealing to you as a person here - let's keep the discussion civil?  Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 02:22, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * With all due respect; If you had LISTENED to us and RESPECTED our decisions on this issue then we would not be using such terms! PantherLeapord&#124;My talk page&#124;My CSD log 02:32, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Why I can not condone the use of "prick" I think it nicely shows the strengt of feeling here. I've long argued that the major problem with this roll out and others has been communication.  If you've been reading this thread why haven't you answered what's the difference between en.wiki and de.wiki.  I think a lot of the bad will has been caused by the staff seeming not appearing to listen - repeatedly saying "not going to happen" without addressing users concerns or entering into a discussion is one of the worst examples.  This thread is another example of that.  A valid question of the difference between en.wiki and de.wiki was asked, a WMF person has been watching and yet we have no answer.  The WMF is shooting itself in the foot with how it communicates with editors. Dpmuk (talk) 02:45, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to condone the language etc, but at the same time it would be a shame if you didn't also attempt to understand where all this is coming from. People feel slapped in the face by an organization that they perceive to have all the power; this isn't the first time it's happened; and they're slapping back in the only way they can. They don't feel that they're arguing with another individual from the community on equal footing, with whom they work with regularly and need to maintain a civil relationship. Individually you're people who don't deserve to be called names, but as a collective, you've done things that, to us, feel rather uncivil. <font style="font:Futura;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #999"> equazcion ( talk ) 02:46, 23 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * If I ever called staff any names, I'll stand up right now and apologize, to their faces. Sorry. But at least don't tell us to "compromise" with you when we already had our consensus. You don't like what's happening - well, you caused it. ~ Charmlet -talk- 02:50, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I made the "pen-pushers" remark, Philippe, and I stand by it 100%. The entire VE project has been about "pen pushing" - you've set a bunch of unrealistic goals, wrapped things up in red tape, whilst not focusing on the core issue; what the community want. Instead, you've made a half-arsed, half-baked hash of a project, which is the result of people who have no idea what they are doing as the project leaders, and are so detached from reality/their customer and client base, that they think they can do whatever they want. If anyone tried pulling the stunts some of the WMF members have, or produced the same godawful code that you lot have, in any programming company... you'd have been fired very, very quickly for sheer incompetence. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 22:01, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

@ . I'm willing to compromise. Just do it the way that the community wants you to do it, and everything will be fine. See, we can compromise the same way that the WMF VE group compromises. @ . I don't think you do get it. Has anyone talked to Jdforrester, who basically told the community to pound sand? This isn't the first time that WMF has done what it has wanted to do against community consensus. Seeking consensus is in the same pillar as civility, and I don't think that the community lost its way first. GregJackP  Boomer!   04:07, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - If the WMF isn't going to take our concerns on board, or worse seemingly ignore us (see my comment above), then we need to take things into our own hands. I strongly suggest that any reversion of this change by WMF staff be reverted and the user blocked for ignoring consensus. That is of course unless it's an office action which will open up an entirely new can of worms. Dpmuk (talk) 02:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If the revert is an office action then the media will pick it up rather quickly and create yet another PR nightmare for the WMF! And Arbcom will doubtless be dragged in as well! PantherLeapord&#124;My talk page&#124;My CSD log 02:56, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Re:ArbCom. Unlikely, they have no remit concerning office actions and will defer to WMF.  As to the media response, you're are probably correct.  The issue isn't very "sexy", but any kind of dissension within Wikipedia is likely to generate press. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:06, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. Furthermore, we should ban all Foundation staff involved with this bullshit (and Echo, Flow and WP:ACTRIAL) whose ... um... conduct... have done damage to the encyclopedia exceeding that of many banned users. It is clear from this very thread that community patience has been exhausted. MER-C 03:17, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Whilst I agree with your sentiment, to accuse the WMF representatives of being on par with even the lowest-common-denominator banned users is wholly inappropriate. Granted, they're being stubborn and attempting to short-circuit consensus, but they're still ostensibly acting on what they feel is the best interests of the community, as opposed to an outside ideal or their own twisted amusement. — Jeremy  v^_^v  Bori! 04:26, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Regardless of the motive, the disruption is the same. I consider a ban a signal of no confidence in the relevant staff members. However, I find it difficult to believe they are acting WP's best interest when they ignored their own research that VE was making newbies do less productive work. MER-C 08:58, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The disruption is only because they're employed directly by the Foundation and working on their behalf. Banning them would be unnecessarily punitive, especially since it's a given that they wouldn't be doing as they are doing now if they weren't on WMF payroll. — Jeremy  v^_^v  Bori! 18:28, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, I can't believe that we're actually needing to have this discussion. 1) It's important for the WMF to respect consensus; 2) This piece of software is terrible in its current implementation with usability issues; and 3) The VE, while a good idea in practice, isn't going to work at all, judging by what has transpired. StringTheory11 (t • c) 03:30, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, it goes without saying. I don't support banning the WMF representatives that have most exacerbated the situation (Whatamidoing and Jorm) but I certainly support them (and any of the obstructionist coders) being fired for gross incompetence. — Jeremy  v^_^v  Bori! 04:26, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Why am I the target of your immature demand for people being fired? I'm not on the VisualEditor team.  Please leave me out of this.--Jorm (WMF) (talk) 04:46, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Your implication that only VE would be supported with Flow certainly exacerbated the situation, Jorm. Note that I did not call out VisualEditor team members (except for any coders participating in the WMF stonewalling) only; I called out the representatives and coders who're causing the situation to escalate and causing the most loss of community trust. Were this any other charity suffering a similar amount of backlash from its volunteers, they'd backtrack faster than you can say "Susan G. Komen" and remove the ones causing the volunteers' distress. The same should happen here. — Jeremy  v^_^v  Bori! 06:18, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - Unfortunatly the "you will take your medicine and like it"-esque comments regarding VE have seriously damaged the WMF's credibility with the community. Accepting the community's consensus on this matter instead of continuing to complain about being made to lay in the bed they made would be a good start at repairing that credibility. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - If you can apply the RfC consensus, that's just great! Tired of seeing articles damaged, and most of the time seeing that the bug has already been reported weeks ago, but is not even prioritized by WMF, while they say that almost all damaging bugs are already fixed. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 05:06, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Reading the last VisualEditor updates, I see that they are still planning to deploy VE on 2 dozen more wikis just tomorrow... Their way of saying that they want to compromise ???
 * Comment: I made a point of not commenting directly in the RFC because, to be honest, I really, really want VisualEditor to be an effective editing interface, and I know there has to be activity in order to identify problems and give the developers the chance to improve them. At this point, however, we're 12 weeks into what the WMF insists on calling "Beta" testing, and multiple core functionalities are still terribly bad, if they exist at all. ( is core functionality, not a low priority enhancement.) Meanwhile, hundreds of bugs have been identified, a significant number of which have been fixed only to recur. (Agile development does not mean you skip doing proper regression testing.) English Wikipedia was the first testing ground for this software, and we reported bugs like there was no tomorrow. We started off with good faith that things would be fixed quickly; however, it became apparent that there were (and still are) major gaps in what VisualEditor can do, and major issues in some of the things that it does unintentionally. Our colleagues on other projects saw how bad this software is, and how far away it is from being fully functional, let alone a suitable alternative to wikitext editing, and RFCs on other projects that showed a clear consensus for "opt-in" to VE were respected by the WMF. There seems to be no reasonable excuse for not respecting English Wikipedia's RFC.  We have done our share of active, daily, intensive testing of this software. It is time for the WMF to respect this community's consensus, and apply the necessary settings from the server side so that VE is opt-in on this project. I note Catrope's post below with respect to Kww's script, and it appears that his code might not do quite what it's intended to do, to the point that it might be taken down for technical reasons.  I cannot stress how provocative that would be; even if there is a good technical reason for removing that code, the correct solution is for the WMF to apply the code it already has written and implemented on other projects, from the server side.  Risker (talk) 05:53, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm able to address the technical issued Catrope has brought up, so even if WMF fails to cooperate, we will still be able to move forward.&mdash;Kww(talk) 06:04, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per NE Ent, and, taking a page from User:MER-C, support bans of the key figures in pushing this idiotic crusade. We all know what's going to happen here:  Someone will make the change to common.js, the Foundation will revert, someone will re-revert, and things will get painfully tense until the admins stand down in the face of blocks or desysops (or the blocks/desyops will actually happen, though my guess is people will chicken out first).  You have two rights on a wiki: the right to leave and the right to fork.  People who have a problem with the Foundation's management of this wiki are welcome to take either course.  At least that way we wouldn't have to watch them all masturbate one another in honor of their brave rebellion against The Man. —  PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  06:01, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I cant think of any precedent that would dictate banning someone who implements an established consensus. It's generally the other way around. <font style="padding:1px 5px;background:#6CB6FF;color:#fff"> equazcion �  | 06:28, 23 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * One has to wonder exactly what substances PinkAmpersand was taking in order to come out with that bunch of rubbish. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 14:18, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not what I was under the influence of. It's what I wasn't under the influence of: this mass hysteria of "why do they get to be in charge?" petty anger that has spread from the perennially malcontent to a disturbing number of editors who should know better.  Glad to know you care about my health, Luke (the answer to your question, by the way, is a small amount of tobacco and maybe a little bit of caffeine), but I think you should be far more concerned about the health of the editing community. —  PublicAmpers <font color="FF1493">&#38; (main account • talk • block) 14:41, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * So you've been hiding off-wiki since the VE came in then? The VE is still a steaming pile of dogshit, which is fundamentally flawed (the woeful performance is one obvious sign) and still can't handle the most basic of tasks properly, or at all. The response to the WMF has nothing whatsoever to do with who is in charge of whom; it's a case of "this doesn't work, it won't work any time soon, and you won't listen to one of the clearest consensuses there's ever been" - anyone with any experience in coding should realize just how much of a mess VE is. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 17:35, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that the WMF made a lot of mistakes with this. They launched without sufficient beta testing, when a few extra months would've hurt no one. However, I think there's been a massive overreaction to what happened (just like the massive overreactions involved in the last dozen "controversies" involving the WMF), and that overreaction troubles me far more than whatever's wrong with the VE. People have this idea that because this is a wiki, that means we all get to be in charge of the business side of things. Any time the WMF acts unilaterally, it's taken as some gross affront to the editors here. Does the WMF have a problem with pushing software too early? Definitely; they should conduct an internal review. Does that problem significantly disrupt my editing experience?  No, and I honestly don't believe it does for most people either.  WMF screw-ups are a proxy for the latent conflict between the decentralized wiki structure and the centralized business structure, for the unqualified resentment many users seem to feel against the WMF employees. I report bugs all the time. Some of them are rather serious. Some of them are because of carelessness on the part of various paid programmers. And guess what? I never pull the kinds of stunts that people have pulled throughout this whole shitstorm. As with most shitstorms on Wikipedia, the problem isn't that there's no valid complaint, the problem is that people are complaining in the most obnoxious ways possible.  I pray that someday the community will have the sense to forbid the drama-whoring that goes on in these things, to require that discussion of serious issues be polite and measured. If the community doesn't get that sense, I can only hope that the WMF or Jimbo will intervene for our own good. (In something of a catch-22, I'd like to think that Flow will help with this—that the simple act of being able to minimize, instead of scrolling down, will make it easier to ignore unhelpful comments. But that's probably overly optimistic.) —  PublicAmpers <font color="FF1493">&#38; (main account • talk • block) 18:56, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Pink - the problem here is not "did the WMF make mistakes". The problem here is do we implement community consensus or not. You are not opposing the code, you are opposing the implementation of community consensus in a way that, frankly, the Foundation has never claimed control over (a local config file). ~ Charmlet -talk- 20:22, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * And, if you ask me, that was a shitstorm where the outrage was far more justifiable than it is here. — PublicAmpers <font color="FF1493">&#38; (main account • talk • block) 20:45, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Come off it. If you truly abhorred the "drama whoring" you're complaining about, then you'd have stayed a million miles away from any VE debate, and you certainly wouldn't have posted an oppose !vote against a consensus that is already clear. And one dodgy site notice is nothing compared to an editor that literally breaks the encyclopedia. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 21:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose, largely per NE Ent. I'll add that I think that implementing this, which will affect all users, would require a great deal of support; it's not possible to assert that everyone who supported the RfC would also support this response.  A change so potentially divisive needs a minimum of hundreds of users to support it.  Even that would not justify this in my view, for the reasons given by NE Ent, but please don't try this without an overwhelmingly positive response.  Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 06:53, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Um, why would the results of an RfC overwhelmingly supported by one of the largest numbers of editors ever on en.wiki be "divisive"? Black Kite (talk) 18:06, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * support But give the devs a full working day to spot any server killing bugs. So 2-3am UTC.Geni (talk) 07:07, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support, thank you KWW. If the WMF feels that the solution is giving performance problems, then they are encouraged to provide their own solution which gives the same results with less problems. Fram (talk) 07:40, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Has this code been tested anywhere? Like say, test2.wikipedia.org, or in your personal .js? --Rschen7754 08:12, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The results of the RfC were clear: VE should be opt-in, at least until the editing community is satisfied that the major issues have been addressed. It should not fall to Kww to have to implement this consensus using a client-side script. Rather than asking their developers to spend time analyzing Kww's ad hoc solution, the VE team ought to do the honorable thing and implement this consensus themselves, the right way, as they apparently have done on the German Wikipedia. I understand that the VE team thinks the clear consensus of editors here is "wrong", and that they know better than the editing community, but the first thing you learn when you sign up for a project like Wikipedia is that you must respect consensus even if you disagree with it. If they are unwilling to do that, then they have no business being involved with Wikipedia and should find something else to do. 28bytes (talk) 08:34, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Firstly as this is the norm on German, and Dutch wikipedia so it would remain consistent. Secondly untested Beta software should never be the default. Thirdly It is the wish of 70%+ of active editors. Fourthly en:wiki had no input in the design phase. Fifthly there never has been a place to discuss the merits of the proposed flawed VE, merely to collect instances of where it is broken. Sixthly, it is a colossal waste of time patrolling each entry on your Watchlist to see what VE has broken. 7: While this issue has been live, my productivity has plummetted, I haven created any pages and done single figures of edits on the encyclopedia. 8: Total frustration, having this elephant in the room has stopped meaningful development of alternative visual editors that work.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 08:40, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Do it. —  Scott  •  talk  13:01, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I am concerned about this action. It seems like it would set up a battleground between the English Wikipedia and the WMF. Have !voters above considered how that would effect the project? This would seem to be directly confrontational, and, as others have noted, could simply lead to the WMF locking admins out of common.js etc. We'd all be right back where we started, except now there's been what amounts to direct confrontation between EN-WP and the WMF. Do !voters believe that's an acceptable situation? OSborn arfcontribs. 13:18, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * (Note: I have added a link to this discussion to the talk page of the RFC. Kww has added a warning encouraging users who would only come here to rant/insult/etc to not do so. OSborn arfcontribs. 13:20, 23 September 2013 (UTC))
 * No, the battleground was set up by the reply from the WMF to the results of the RfC. The confrontation has been set up by their refusal to take the community input into account without providing good reasons. Yes, they probably have means to make our lives a lot harder, and vice versa. They perhaps have to reconsider whether the small amount of edits with the VisualEditor, and the large amount of corrections and reversals needed after these edits, are really worth such a confrontation. Perhaps it's time that they took a good look at what is happening here and why people are reacting this way, and reconsider whether the forced introduction of clearly buggy software to many other wikipedia language versions should really be their priority now. Note that we aren't the only Wiki-language version with serious doubts about the wisdom of the approach wrt VE. Fram (talk) 13:52, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm a bit surprised to find myself here, but Support, pending a reasonable period for code review, per Geni. In the past I've been one of the voices calling for community compromise on issues where the WMF has stonewalled, but I'm afraid I can see no good argument for not implementing a very strong community consensus that it is within our means to implement. We have a responsibility to our users to make sure that the new code we deploy doesn't degrade the site's performance and that it does what it says on the tin, but we're not obligated to artificially restrain ourselves from implementing consensus because it would inconvenience the Foundation. Incidentally, the vociferousness with which the community is coming out on this issue is, I think, the chickens coming home to roost Idiom definition here for the Foundation. If this were the first time that strong community consensus had been overruled, the community would be much more hopeful about and receptive to useful compromise; however, we've seen this played out enough times to know that no compromise of any value is likely to be forthcoming (not from deliberate obstructionism by the WMF so much as because bureaucracy just works like that), and therefore we're more inclined to "That's ok, we can do it without you" than we might otherwise be. Or, to put it another way, the Foundation has veto power in extreme circumstances, and that's as it should be, but the extremity of the circumstances in which they attempt to deploy that power is steadily decreasing, and as The Boy Who Cried Wolf learned, extreme measures employed too often will lose their power for when they're really needed. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:20, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I commend Kww for the work he has put into this, and the RFC, and related matters such as protective templates, for the benefit of this community. He deserves a huge amount of respect for that. I also Support this implementation, iff the Foundation do not finally look sensibly at this issue and implement the RFC results themselves, properly, and very quickly now, as they have done elsewhere on other language wikipedias. It is an absolute tragedy that it comes to this - the potential for disruption and confrontation here is immense, and the damage that could be done, and linger, over this issue is terrifying. And for what? A stubborn insistence that "we know better than you", and some bruised egos because what was deployed, and the way it was deployed is hugely sub-par, and to back down and do the right thing now would bruise those egos some more? No, WMF, do the right thing and implement this consensus in the face of the largest groundswell of honest consensus I've ever seen here - because it's right, and deep in your hearts you damn well know it's right, and that by taking that step you would instantly begin to regain the support of a community which is eager to, and can, help you do this properly. In the absence of that happening very quickly I support the community implementation, and god help us all. Get a clue, WMF guys - we're supposed to be in this together, so act, right now, like we really are. Please. The alternatives are appalling. Begoon &thinsp; talk  15:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Just do it. Insulam Simia (talk · contribs) 16:31, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. If the WMF folks are concerned this is not an optimally clean and efficient way of doing it from a technical perspective, they know they have it in their hands to implement something better: just do the same they did on de-wp. Unfortunately, the attitude we are seeing from those responsible on the WMF side indicates there's little hope for something constructive from them. Philippe's whiny display of incompetence and argumentative dishonesty shown in his reaction here is nothing short of nauseating. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's pretty dismaying to see, but seems pretty par for the course on how the VE developers seem hell-bent on screwing over this community. If WMF-folk have a better way of doing this, by all means, I would welcome it. Until they decide to stop spitting on this community and actually abide by the overwhelming consensus here, we need to just stop this abomination in any way possible. VanIsaacWS Vex<sup style="margin-left:-7.0ex">contribs 17:58, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment - VisualEditor/Updates/September 19, 2013 - 2 dozen other wikis are apparently getting VE (as pointed out by User:NicoV above). I wouldn't be opposed to letting them know the situation and offering our code fix. <font style="padding:1px 5px;background:#6CB6FF;color:#fff"><font color=#fff>equazcion <font color=#fff>� | 18:18, 23 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. First of all, looking formally, everything is good: WMF has a right to change the MediaWiki that is being run on the servers, the community and administrators have a right to change pages in MediaWiki namespace. Also, while the RFC might not have been formally binding for the WMF, it is "more binding" to the administrators. Second, as to what is going to happen - I would guess that, most likely, WMF will not really do anything significant. The previous actions could easily happen "by inertia", but for such revert (or anything more drastic) that might be less likely to be enough... After all, what formal reason can they supply..? Another objection is that such action is confrontational. Well, it is. We shouldn't be acting like this with our friends. But at the moment WMF are not acting as our friends (friendship is not defined as a relationship where one side often does or says something that another side finds to be insulting) and I do not see a reason to pretend that they are our friends. Though, of course, it does not mean that we cannot collaborate and negotiate - even real enemies in real wars often did negotiate (otherwise we would have no peace treaties to write about). And thus the call to ban the representatives of WMF is a bad idea - yes, too many of them are not going to get the title of "great communicator" any time soon, but are they going to communicate better when banned..? Anyway, we should not be too harsh in criticising the instances when representatives of WMF at least show some efforts to communicate politely and respectfully (like in [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AKww&diff=573890336&oldid=573812058])... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 21:00, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment from IP, crossposted from talkpage. I tried to post my comments to the discussion but it seems IP's aren't welcome on this noticeboard so I'm posting here instead. Feel free to post it to the discussion or leave it here. The mere fact that the WMF is choosing to implement the VE application to a couple dozen more wiki's this month only shows they aren't listening. There are literally hundreds of bugs that need to be fixed. It still doesn't work at all with any version of internet explorer and multiple Wiki's are on the verge of a revolt. There is absolutely no possible good that can come out of continuing this implementation before a large group of the problems are fixed. 138.162.8.57 (talk) 20:47, 23 September 2013 (UTC) Crossposted by ~ Charmlet -talk- 21:15, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe the plans for rollout of VE on other wikis were planned over a month ago and discussions have been occurring on VilagePump, etc. those wikis before the ANI. Informed by enwiki discussions such as this one, there has been discussion on reversing, delaying, or canceling on rollout on other wikis to the point of confusion amongst the staff as to the rollout date/plans which happens whenever you reverse something that people have been working on for a while. Furthermore, things are complicated by the fact that some of those wikis have specifically asked for VisualEditor to be enabled there. Anything beyond what is being done (perhaps a bit schizophrenically) begins to make a claim that Enwiki should dictate what goes on in these other wikis, which I'm sure nobody wants.
 * You have a point as there are just over 800 reported bugs on VisualEditor of which under 30 should be considered before delaying release. These bugs should inform decision-making as to rollout, and should be discussed, but not in the way it has been framed as a go-no go-rollback. For reference, the bug numbers for MediaWiki and MediaWiki extensions are (over the 5000 limit) reported bugs of which 512 are major or critical. I'm sure you're not advocating the WMF put Wikipedia in read-only mode until the five hundred critical and major bugs in MediaWiki are fixed.
 * VisualEditor doesn't work in Internet Explorer, but it's also not enabled for them. Since the wikitext editing works and is enabled on (nearly) all browsers, I wonder the Harrison Bergeron justification of punishing everyone because Microsoft can't implement decent support of a web standard. Besides, from the comments, it seems some of you would consider the disabling of a feature a feature. :-)
 * I hope my comment doesn't sound condescending because that isn't the intention. Your comments evoked a lot of thinking on my part and I spent some time looking up the justification for some of the decisions (or in the case of rollout to other wikis on Sept 24 or 30th or later, the lack of me to find knowledge of the current decision). - tychay (tchay@wikimedia) (talk) 21:37, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Tychay, Hi, and thank you for your post. I have major concerns when you speak about bug counts and comparing them to MW bugs:
 * First, I've been around here a long time and even with the number of open bugs for MW, I don't see them damaging articles, which is very far from what I can say about VE. So, comparing number of bugs is meaningless in my opinion.
 * Second, your count of VE bugs that should be considered before delaying the release (30 according to you) is way underestimated because many, many VE bugs haven't been prioritized or given a criticity, including many that are damaging articles on a regular basis.
 * --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 21:50, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You make some good points. I'm not comparing bug counts, I'm advocating against the use of bug counts in decision-making because it leads to an unworkable state that nobody wants via reducto ad absurdum.
 * I would disagree on the qualitative point of "very far away." for various reasons
 * A number of unresolved bugs in mediawiki have drastically harmed logged-in performance and editor experience has suffered drastically vis-a-vis reader performance to the point that it may have significantly contributed to editor decline.
 * Because I, a rare editor at best, have been burned by a number of mediawiki bugs in parser (some I noticed are actually corrected in parsoid/VE), that has forced me to do re-edits — I'm sure you've run into stuff that should work, but don't, gone in and fixed them in preview or on re-edit — the difference here is rendered output by the current parser-based wikitext transform is the canonical and thus forces you to implement workarounds, while parsoid is not, so that "broken" behavior is okay, but not a fair standard
 * the major bugs left uncategorized applies to my MediaWiki example above. Fourth
 * While there is a lot of anecdotal evidence of breakages due to VisualEditor, the research shows that it is "manageable."
 * I use the word in the last point in quotes because the research doesn't really say that: it looks at reversions and other factors and show that the quantity of reverts/blocks generated possibly by VE bugs during the period of the research were overwhelmed by regular wikitext vandalization rates. I think it's important to be specific because we want to use the data when available to inform decision-making, but not be driven by it. (In other words, just because the data doesn't reveal the VE bugs as harmful, doesn't mean that the significance of VE bugs can be dismissed.) - tychay (tchay@wikimedia) (talk) 22:59, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This is an interesting but, ultimately, useless conversational digression. en.wp had an RFC on this. It was massively supported to make VE opt-in. You guys had a chance to head it off by making some adjustments there and you decided not to. Why not pull back for 6 months and deploy when VE isn't broken? AnswerTheQuestion (talk) 23:33, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Note from VE developer

 * Comment
 * Hi everyone, I'm a developer on the VisualEditor team at WMF. Since people have been making various claims about what the proposed Common.js code does and doesn't do, I figured I'd review and analyze it. Here's what this code will do, as far as I can tell:


 * If the user is not logged in (anonymous) or is logged in but has never made an edit (edit count is zero), then the script will attempt to disable VisualEditor on the current page.
 * If the user is logged in but has never made an edit, and the “disable VE” preference isn't already set, then the script will set it (asynchronously, by calling the API).


 * Re 1, note that previous versions of this code checked whether the user was autoconfirmed (only disabling VE if the user wasn't autoconfirmed), whereas this version checks the user's edit count (only disabling VE if the user has no edits). It's not clear to me why this change was made or where it was discussed (same for the original decision to go with autoconfirmed-ness as a criterion), but I haven't been paying very close attention to this, so I might have missed it.


 * Re 2, note that there is was a typo in the current version of the code that results resulted in the script always setting the "disable VE" preference, even if it's already set. This is the "hammering the servers" issue that Philippe was talking about.


 * A larger issue related to #1 above is that while the script attempts to disable VE on the current page, it will not succeed. It tries to disable VE by overwriting what MediaWiki's JavaScript believes the user's preferences to be, but VisualEditor checks the user's preferences early on in the page load to decide whether it should enable itself, long before this script has a chance to run and change that state. For logged-in users, that's mostly fine, because the script does an API call setting the “disable VE” preference, which means VE will be disabled for real on all subsequent page views, just not the first one. If the user's first page view is not a VE-editable page, they won't even notice. However, for anonymous users, the script won't set a preference (because anonymous users don't have preferences), and so it will fail to disable VE on any page view. It's possible that lingering caching issues will cause the script to work more or less by accident on some rarely-edited pages for anonymous users, but as far as I can tell it will fail to disable VE for anonymous users in all but a few if not actually all cases.


 * (The paragraph above assumes that ResourceLoader (the JavaScript loading framework in MediaWiki) works correctly. Right now there is a bug in ResourceLoader (with a fix under review) that causes the VE code to load after the Common.js code, and so right now disabling VE on the current page view works for logged-in users. It still doesn't work for anonymous users, though, because caching issues have made the preferences store for anons so unreliable that VE doesn't trust it.)


 * A larger issue related to #2 is that if a user who has zero edits attempts to opt into VE by going into their preferences and unsetting the “disable VE” preference, the script will set it right back as soon as it gets a chance (which is when the user views any page that's not the preferences page or the login page). So a user who has no edits but tries to opt into VE can edit their preferences all they want, but those changes won't stick because the script will fight them.


 * Once the user does have an edit count of 1 or higher, VE doesn't magically turn back on again. The script will stop trying to disable VE (both on the current page and in the user's preferences), but VE doesn't get reenabled and the user doesn't get any indication that they are now able to opt into VE. The only thing that changes is that if they go into their preferences and opt into VE, the script won't fight that anymore.


 * This produces the following, quite counterintuitive (and probably unintended) situation:
 * Anonymous users will see VE exactly the way they do now, except possibly on some pages (due to the caching mentioned above).
 * Logged-in users who have never edited will not see VE and will be actively blocked from using VE if they try. Adding ?veaction=edit to the URL won't work, and unsetting the “disable VE” preference won't stick.
 * Logged-in users whose first edit was before this script was deployed will have exactly the same experience as they do now, an opt-out experience: they will see VE unless they explictly opted out.
 * Logged-in users whose first edit was after this script was deployed will have an opt-in experience: they will not see VE unless they explicitly opt in. Really they have to un-opt-out by unchecking the “disable VE for me” box, if they can figure how to get there.


 * The most concerning consequences, in my opinion, are:
 * Certain classes of users have an opt-in experience while others have an opt-out experience, and there's no easily apparent reason why.
 * There is no realistic path for new users to discover and enable VE.
 * The fact that anonymous users are offered a feature that's hidden from some but not all logged-in users causes obvious issues (start editing as an anon with VE, create an account, where did that editor go?), but it seems the intention was to also hide VE for them.
 * If VE is hidden for anonymous users and editors whose edit count is zero (and opting in is actively suppressed for them), then it is by definition impossible to make one's first edit with VE. It is an explicit design goal of VisualEditor that it should be usable by people who have no experience with wiki markup. If users have to make an edit in wiki markup before they can use VisualEditor, then by definition no one in that target group (which isn't our only target group, but is an important one) can use VE on enwiki.


 * So, in conclusion, I think the outcome achieved by the code as written) is weird and undesirable, and probably not what was intended. Apart from the typo (which was fixed after I wrote this but before I was able to post it) there are no big technical issues that would block this from going live, but I think people might object to the current version's strange behavior. Generally, though, I don't think this is the right approach to disabling/hiding VE. There are other approaches, such as using CSS and dynamically setting classes to hide the VE edit tab, that would be lower-impact on a technical level and have simpler, more predictable behavior.


 * Even more generally, and going beyond the technical aspect, I think it would be nice if we could make it at least not impossible for anons and new editors to use VE, while still respecting the RFC consensus, particularly the part about how "editors should make explicit choice to become beta testers". My coworkers at WMF are working on a proposal that I think could accomplish that. It's not quite done yet (I mean, it's Sunday night here in San Francisco; that's why this response is relatively late), but I hope they'll be able to propose something in the next couple of days. --Catrope (talk) 05:17, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The behaviour with new users is as good as it can get (unless you just truly made the editor opt-in like the community has requested). It is an explicit goal of that patch that VE is not presented to inexperienced editors which means that by definition, it is not possible to make one's first edit with VE.
 * I believe that adding


 * to common.js will address the issue for anonymous editors and avoid the race condition. I was trying not to patch both files, but it's a simple fix to get around the race condition.
 * Please bear in mind that the goal is to prevent anonymous and new editors from using VE. The only people that should be using VE are experienced editors that are able to verify their edits, correct those that have gone awry, and issue intelligent reports about it.&mdash;Kww(talk) 06:00, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Catrope, I think you know perfectly well what the appropriate solution would be here: It is for the WMF to enable the same code on English Wikipedia that it has enabled on German and Dutch Wikipedias. It is not as though we haven't already given you 12 weeks of very intense data. It's not like we aren't trying our best to review the 7000 VE edits a day because we *know* they're significantly more likely to have messed something up somewhere on the page; at least with source edits, we only need to look at the edit while doing recent changes patrol.  We've done our share. I know that you and many others have been working very hard to fix the problems the community has identified (or at least some of them, since there's quite a bit of dispute between the community and senior VE leaders on what is core functionality, what is a bug, and what is an enhancement) — I don't want to take away from that. It's time for the WMF to respect this community's participation to date, and allow us the same respect as our peers on other projects. I hope you and your colleagues will advocate for that within your own organization.  Risker (talk) 06:02, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I concur with Risker. Additionally, the WMF has this bad habit of wanting to "work with the community" after the fact and that needs to stop. You can't just decide to work with us when it seems your going to lose an argument and then go ahead and do whatever you want anyway. You had ample opportunity to work with us for the last several months and months before that in the design and development phases when we weren't consulted at all. Honestly, the time for democracy has ended. You can either chose to implement the correct solution that has been asked for by the community and has been implemented in other wiki's or we can do it ourselves in the method that is available to us. If the WMF had listened to the community in the beginning and hda done a thoughtful release this wouldn't have happened but because you wanted to rush it, you lost the faith and support of the community. Now you have to earn that trust back and so does the VE app. That always takes longer than just doing things right the first time. 138.162.8.58 (talk) 14:33, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I also agree with Risker here. Especially the bit about us having done our share: I have taken the time to report several issues to the VE feedback page, only to learn that in most cases those were already known problems, some of them known for months. Those of us who supported "opt-in" for VE are not elitists who demand everyone learn wikitext to edit; I would love for an intelligent, fully functional visual editor to be in place to make life easier for newbies and old hands alike. I want Wikipedia to be easy to edit, because familiarity with wikitext and familiarity with an article's subject manner are two unrelated areas of knowledge, and we shouldn't require the former to benefit from the latter. What I and other "opt-in, please" supporters want is for the developers to fix the known issues – or at least the big known issues – before resuming the beta test. We're not Luddites who fear Change and Progress; we just want software that works and doesn't damage the encyclopedia or require a coterie of "cleanup artists" tidying up after the VE edits. I don't think that's unreasonable. 28bytes (talk) 17:44, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Risker, yes, of course the most appropriate solution would be for WMF to implement something server-side. On technical grounds that would be much preferable to any sort of JS/CSS hack. All I care about as a VE developer is that the solution we end up with isn't ugly from a technical perspective, and I would like for it to not make it completely impossible for important groups that we're targeting to use VE. I think there are many ways to achieve that. Hopefully one can be agreed on. But I'm going to limit my involvement in this discussion to technical matters (and expressing the wish that a nonzero number of people in important target groups have the opportunity to use the software I help build, but I've said that enough times now), and otherwise focus on VE development. --Catrope (talk) 18:44, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it's a dispute over timing, not goals, Catrope. There will come a time when exposing new editors to VE is both prudent and necessary. That's sometime after it has basic functions like cut-and-paste between windows, tables, a complete template-editing system, support for all of our current templates regardless of how they intermix styles and content, a stable user interface, and no backlog of uncategorized and unevaluated bug reports. To me, that is the most frustrating part of this whole problem: you are working on something that could be quite useful in the future and there is probably a large pent-up demand for, but the deployment rush is souring things. It's hard to reconcile the concepts that WMF is listening to our concerns but is releasing the code to 25 more wikis anyway. Regardless, any comment you might have on the current contents of User:Kww/common3.js is greatly appreciated. I'm certain that neither of us actually wants to break Wikipedia.&mdash;Kww(talk) 18:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm sorry, but you need to give up on target groups and spend a couple thousand man-hours fixing all the things that are horribly wrong with the VE. Hearing you talk about making sure that you get enough people to use this POS tool so that you have some sort of data is just insulting to those of us who have to clean up after the innumberable messes this thing leaves across this project. Just to let you know, I automatically revert all visual editor contributions to any page I watchlist because invariably, that thing has broken every piece of functioning code on the page. I know I'm talking to a brick wall here - if the last several months haven't convinced everyone that the WMF doesn't give a shit about this community, nothing will - but you need to know that, in response, we don't give a shit whether you get a single edit from any of your target groups because every last one of those edits is a plague on this community, and helping you in any way is a direct threat to this community. VanIsaacWS Vex<sup style="margin-left:-7.0ex">contribs 19:44, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Please, people: we don't need this. We're in a bind here, where the community goals and the WMF goals are at loggerheads. We need to work out an answer, but this kind of vitriol doesn't help. You can express the concept that the tool isn't ready for deployment outside of a controlled test environment without this kind of insult added on.&mdash;Kww(talk) 19:58, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Concur. The developers aren't the ones causing the problems here. It's not their fault their code was thrown at enwiki before it was anywhere near ready. Black Kite (talk) 20:03, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Well being nice and holding RfCs about this cluster%$&* of a situation sure hasn't worked, so maybe letting one of those people know that parts of this community view them as a plague that needs to be wiped from the face of this project will do some good. Just remember that these people have taken the record of the scorched earth left across English Wikipedia, and somehow seen fit to impose this unholy piece of dessicated excrement on another two dozen projects this week. That's what we are dealing with. The WMF developers are actively hostile to the wellbeing of this project. Until they understand just how badly they have screwed up, and make serious amends to this community, starting with withdrawing VE until it actually doesn't ruin everything it touches, the only acceptable response is to fight them whenever, wherever, and however we can. So if Catrope has a chance of reading this and somehow manages to do the right thing and let others at WMF know that they have royally &%*$ed up, then I'm not going to pull a single punch other than censoring some of my choicest anglo-saxon verbiage, as is my habit. VanIsaacWS Vex<sup style="margin-left:-7.0ex">contribs 20:24, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm about to place my future with this project on the line to do something about this problem. Believe me, I don't find it helpful to have an environment where my detractors will say that I did so out of anger, spite, and hate.&mdash;Kww(talk) 20:30, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have never quite understood how people seem to think that adding personal insults to "I think you did X wrong" is going to make people MORE inclined to listen to them. It doesn't and it won't, Vanisaac. If anything, it's going to make people more inclined to discount your opinion, because you sound like you're responding to VE and the devs based on emotion rather than logic. It's not helpful to either the conversation or the formation of consensus, but it does manage to disrupt the discussion disproportionately and I'm pretty sure most or all of the people here wish you weren't doing it. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:35, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed with Kww. We can stay civil and polite, even if we're so many thinking that VE's deployment hasn't been handled correctly, and that VE is still in no way stable and trustworthy enough to be put in the hands of complete beginners. I hope WMF will at least act to put back VE in opt-in mode for the moment, but otherwise I strongly support Kww's work for implementing the overwhelming RfC consensus. --NicoV (Talk on frwiki) 20:37, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Comment from an autoconfirmed user

 * Edit filter 550 is already logging the addition of "nowiki" tags. How about changing it to block and log? Would it be possible to have it block only when the Visual Editor is used, but allow "nowiki" tags to be added with the text-based editor? Would it be possible to direct authors to the log diff of the attempted edit, so they could make another attempt or ask for help, without losing their work? &mdash; rybec 06:35, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've looked, but have not been able to find way to block them without also blocking valid nowiki tags (and there are times when VE really does need to insert them).&mdash;Kww(talk) 06:42, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * We could just block only the empty nowiki tags (or the ones containing nothing but spaces, or whatever the VE glitch puts in there). I'm assuming the empty ones aren't ever required legitimately. I'm not sure how much good it would do, but just musing. <font style="padding:1px 5px;background:#6CB6FF;color:#fff"><font color=#fff>equazcion <font color=#fff>� | 06:54, 23 Sep 2013 (UTC)
 * Um, no those empty nowiki tags are actually needed. That's why VE adds them... Legoktm (talk) 16:58, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, they are not actually needed in many cases. Looking at the log for the last 30 minutes I see [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Emperor_Wu_of_Han&diff=prev&oldid=574204713 this] (VE makes part of the linked term unlinked, which is almost certainly not what the editor wanted) and [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Agricultural_Involution:_The_Processes_of_Ecological_Change_in_Indonesia&diff=prev&oldid=574205900 this] (which is a known "WONTFIX" issue with VE failing to handle double brackets properly.) There are plenty more like that in [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:AbuseLog&wpSearchFilter=550 the log]. In neither case is VE actually implementing what the editor clearly wanted. 28bytes (talk) 17:23, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * VE is implementing what the user typed. The user linked "riot" but left the "ed" part unlinked. Had they linked the whole word, there would be a piped link there, instead of VE using a nowiki to prevent the link trail. Regarding the nowikification of double brackets, the whole point of VE is so that we don't have to use wikitext. The way VE has been designed is that you either use the source editor and use wikitext, or use the VE editor and insert links in the VE-way, via the toolbar. Legoktm (talk) 21:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, sure, I know how it happened. I'm just saying that's almost certainly not what the editor(s) intended. Because VE is not intelligent enough to turn link into link, someone will now have to clean that up. In this case – and many others – the presence of the &lt;nowiki&gt; is a hint that the edit is broken. Whether we choose to blame the editor, VE, or a combination of both, is sort of beside the point. 28bytes (talk) 21:58, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Blocking good-faith edits is the last thing we want to use the AF for Legoktm (talk) 14:01, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. Unfortunately, we haven't previously had to cope with editing software that breaks articles even when the user has done (as far as they are concerned) absolutely nothing wrong. Black Kite (talk) 17:58, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Notification of RfC: Should CSD: be an exception to the immunity of pseudo-namespaces to deletion?
There is an ongoing RfC going on at Talk:CSD: that anyone visiting this page may be interested in. Technical 13 (talk) 16:45, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Please note that Technical 13 has created this at Talk:CSD:, the talk page of the now deleted CSD: redirect. Is this eligible for G4/G8 (the rfc, if it really needs to continue, could be moved somewhere else)?
 * Dogmaticeclectic has independently nominated the page for G8, I have nominated the now recreated CSD: for G4. Admins reviewing these CSDs should note the other recreated pages, if they choose to delete, see contribs
 * Technical 13 has now reverted my CSD tag, despite being the creator of the page. OSborn arfcontribs. 17:11, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * These pages are part of a WP:Pseudo-namespace and are immune to deletion and tagging as such until the RfC which these users are trying to cover up in an attempt to prevent the outlined process of WP:RfC which says discussions should take place on the talk page of the topic in question. Please remove these invalid tags, they are disruptive and not becoming of someone that is suppose to be here to build an encyclopedia.  Thank you. Technical 13 (talk) 17:22, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've warned this user for violating WP:AGF; it's the second time I've done so in this specific dispute. Dogmaticeclectic (talk) 17:30, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Lordy T13, so "your" redirects were deleted as the result of a valid deletion discussion, were they? Here's an idea - stop running around being pointy everywhere you can, starting silly RFCs on invalid talk pages, and asking for watchlist notices, and file a review request if you disagree with the closure, like what us normal, unimportant mortals would do. Or would that not generate enough "look at me" drama? Sheesh... Begoon &thinsp; talk  17:33, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I moved the RFC page to Requests for comment/CSD pseudo-namespace. I removed the CSD tag following the move, since the criteria no longer applies -- I know this is normally a no-no, but I IAR'd in the interest of restoring a little sanity to this situation. The article space redirects should probably be deleted now and all advertised links changed. <font style="padding:1px 5px;background:#6CB6FF;color:#fff"><font color=#fff>equazcion <font color=#fff>� | 17:49, 23 Sep 2013 (UTC)

CSD G13
There are just under 50,000 submissions to AFC which qualify as G13 (submissions that have been declined or abandoned for a period of time no less than six months.)

Some admins take the position
 * 1) That these can be deleted without yet another layer of scrutiny. (All have been reviewed, although the competence of the reviewer may be uneven. All has gone without a single edit for at least six months).
 * 2) Others feel that each one should be examined individually, and would prefer a lower throttle on transfer to the CSD backlog, while some feel that the throttle should be slower to give reviewers a chance to look at the inventory again. See DGG discussion at my talk page.

I've taken a middle approach (though to be fair, closer to the first than the second):
 * I reviewed the code of the bot, to convince myself that it is unlikely to identify items in error
 * I do spot checks to make sure that the articles have indeed, been unedited for over six months (no errors yet found)
 * I glance at the content just in case something looks like it deserves more review. E.g. L. S. Ettre,Gus_Wilson's_Model_Garage

That said, I have little doubt that some editor will find something in the pile of dross that with some polishing, could remain as an article. The question in my mind, is one of resources. Given finite resources, how much should be diverted to reviewing these submissions one more time?

If anyone is scratching their head wondering why this is an issue, I've handled several thousand over the past couple weeks, so the CSD backlog is rarely large. I've stopped, pending feedback on this issue.

One option is for those interested in doing one more review to set up a process to review them before they hit the queue. That would allow non-admin reviewers to help out (once deleted, only an admine can do a post-deletion review). That would be the option I think would work best (while still being a waste of talent). If that is unworkable, then we need to recruit more admins to do the individual reviews, as the volume is large enough that we will either have a permanent backlog at CSD or a growing backlog of submissions in limbo.

Or perhaps someone will come up with a better idea.

You many be interested. SPhilbrick (Talk)  17:10, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

(In case someone wonder why this is posted here, rather than at the AFC page, it affects all admins who review the admin dashboard, many of whom might not follow the AfC talk page)-- SPhilbrick (Talk)  17:10, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * As the bot operator I'd like to observe a few things.
 * The community endorsed the creation of the speedy criterion on April 6th of this year.
 * There have been several clarifying discussions about how the CSD criterion should be applied. ,
 * A long and convuluted consensus building exercise was conducted at Bots/Requests for approval/HasteurBot and Bots/Requests for approval/HasteurBot 2 in which a plan for how to go about tapping the editor who created a page on the shoulder and let them know that their creation had become eligible for G13
 * The bot's tasks were approved with the following provisos
 * The bot will not nominate for deletion any page that is not eligible for G13.
 * The bot will give the creator of a AfC draft at least 30 days from when the draft became eligible to remedy the issue (even with a single character change to the page).
 * The bot will nominate articles up to a approximated limit of 50 articles in Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as abandoned AfC submissions.
 * After the bot went through notifying creators of stale drafts, the bot remained silent while waiting for the 30 day timer to expire. Once the bot started nominating, editors who had participated in the consensus building exercises and had been politely declined raised the same issues again and attempted to get the bot's code to be changed to an even lower threshold.  The threshold that was being asked for was so low that it would not keep up with the new inbound AfC submissions that are being added every day.
 * For these reasons I express my dismay in the administrators who are raising the objection refusing to do work that the community has on multiple occasions endorsed. Hasteur (talk) 17:31, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * (sorry, this written before the last two posts)I feel that it is worth giving these one more glance before a bot decides their fate. For example, I found an article about an audio book in which one of science fiction's most celebrated authors was narrating his iconic stories, which had been declined because it didn't pass Notability (music) (perfectly true...). Hasteur has set up a very easy way to delay deletion of an article-in-waiting that even one editor thinks is worth fixing up. There are even a number of editors that are interested in checking them. The problem is in coordinating our efforts. The bot nominates by date; If we had a page somewhere where we could have a list of dates, and interested editors could check all of the ones in a certain date range and then sign their name beside that date range, the others would feel that their efforts were more worthwhile, and sections wouldn't be missed. It really shouldn't be left on the shoulders of a few admins to deal with 50,000 old submissions. &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 17:47, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * After reading Hasteur's reply, I just want to add that I am in favour of the bot nominating the old drafts for deletion, and I am in favour of the admins deleting them. I think it's up to those community members who want to save the drafts to organize themselves to remove any useful material from the path of this process.  &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 17:54, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I tried to check them, and kept up just fine until the bot started working. I found I could do about 10 days per week, but those were smaller groups than at present. . I'm going to try again, Starting in Jan 2012--the way I will do it is to look simply for people in my spheres of interest  (researchers & authors) & anything really obvious., which is less extensive than I did before, where I looked for any rescueable article. This is why I opposed the bot as planned, but i was led to  de-emphasise my opposition by the promise of it doing no more than 50 a day. 50 a day + people going manually from the oldest,  I can keep up with. I can not keep up with the way the bot does it now, which is to add another 50 as soon as someone of the admins who deletes mostly without checking removes them, which typically takes them about 5  minutes-10 if they make any effort at all to look at the articles, not just the dates.  No one (or two or three) human being can keep up ahead of something moving that fast.  Since it takes at least 50 minutes to check 50 articles and make the necessary edits to keep them from deletion, we need 10 people at least, and that's more than we have.. Unless the bot slows down, you're asking too much of volunteer humans. A bot marking for deletion  should never work faster than people can check it.  If every admin who deletes would check, there of course would be no problem, but the other deleting admins are divided between those who think checking is totally unnecessary, and those who don't think they have time to do it. I think that an abdication of admin responsibility--no admin should be doing any form of deletion process who does not  check to a reasonable extent everything they delete.
 * If there were an emergency, that's one thing--but even in an emergency we still want to delete the right articles, And there is no emergency. If we clear up the backlog in another 6 months we're doing fine, and can keep up after that. I don';t think the new ones should overwhelm us, because if the patrollers patrol right the first time, it all gets much easier. So once Kudpung's efforts have removed the unprepared patrollers, and we have a chance to educate the others, we'll be OK. &#39;DGG (at NYPL) (talk) 18:41, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Please keep the bot working as it does now; we are finally getting somewhere in removing this backlog. The amount of truly problematic AfC articles justifies the deletion of potential articles that had been dormant for years before G13 was decided upon; in most "potential" cases, these ones are on a subject with potential, but with an article attempt where next to nothing can be reused anyway. It really isn't worth waiting for. Fram (talk) 18:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Not seeing any consensus to overturn the prior consensus, I'm going to return to deletions. I hope others will join Anne in the task of vetting those headed for the queue.-- SPhilbrick (Talk)  22:54, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Sub-discussion about early advancement option

 * I'm unsure as to why left me out of the ping and notification of the discussion here as CSD:G13 development and processing has been one of my main contributions here on wiki, and I appreciate the notification that I got from .  That being said, and after watching this discussion develop on various talk pages and discussions, I think I may have come up with a potential compromise that may assist in resolving this so that "the poor bot operator" doesn't have to continuously modify the bot's thresholds and limits in an attempt to make everyone happy (we all know how easy it is to  make everyone happy).  What if... the bot had a little recoding that would make the bot do what it was originally approved to do with a button/link accessible on the bot's userpage that would allow any admin that saw an empty queue and wanted to get the next batch of nominations early to have the bot run a cycle? Technical 13 (talk) 19:38, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Obviously we don't want to let any random user to trigger a glob of nominations, but at the same time, having to detach the process so that we don't have a constantly running background process slapping around the servers repeatedly. Here's what I'm thinking of:
 * A fully protected page with instructions on how to trigger the bot. A monitoring process will wake up every 5~10 minutes and see if the page has been edited since the last "firing date". If the last edit date of the page has changed, it spins up the nominating bot and the nom bot goes on it's merry little way. The monitoring process writes the updated edit time to it's check file and terminates.
 * We gain the benefit of a detached system that the admins can advance more nominations as they're ready and moves the throttle on nominations from a procedural time based firing to one that admins have to know where to look for. If we do go this route, I really think we need to increase the maximum number of nominations the bot is allowed to push to something more (say 100~150 pages). Hasteur (talk) 19:52, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * , because the admins will have the ability to queue up more nominations on demand, I don't see any reason to increase the base threshold when they aren't specifically asking for more. Unless of course I've misunderstood you, which is entirely possible due to my human nature. ;) Technical 13 (talk) 20:34, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've started a page to keep track of which G13 submissions I've already checked. It's at User:Anne Delong/G13 Rescue squad.  If anyone else wants to use this page to indicate which sections they've checked, please feel free to take ownership of a section or mark on off as done. If it proves useful, I'll move it to project space.  &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 20:23, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to push a compromise where both sides get something they want and both sides give up a little of what they originally had. I guess I misinterperted your suggestion in that I thought you said "Remove the 1 time an hour trigger that will nominate enough to get up to 50 nominations. Add a trigger so that admins will advance nominations at their whim (including not advancing any nominations)". If what you were suggesting was giving admins a way to advance nominations early (i.e. They finish the current batch of nominations in 15 minutes and want more NOW) then I have no objection to wiring that in, but right now, we need to push nominations in front of the admins as much as possible. Perhaps once we're down to 9000 total G13 eligible pages then we can go to a Admin triggered method, but not while we still leave ourselve open to being an abused web host. Hasteur (talk) 20:57, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * , I was indeed suggesting to add a "Gimme moar NOW!" button in addition to the 50/hour (max 50 in category) currently nomination schedule. This way the bot is going nice and slow as it seems the majority of people want (including me), unless there is a bored admin that wants to sit there for an hour or two and has run out of nominations to say, yeah, give me more please.  I think this "more now please" option should still refuse to add more to the category above the 50 limit, but if the admin has really cleared out the queue, it shouldn't be an issue. Technical 13 (talk) 21:06, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll wire the logic tonight to have this option. Of note: If an admin triggers the "moar now" and the category is already over 50, the bot is not going to do any nominations because 50 - 50 is less than 1. Hasteur (talk) 21:24, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Trigger page is at User:HasteurBot/KickoffNom but I have left the code that checks the page turned off until the page is protected so only admins can give it the nudge. Hasteur (talk) 00:06, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hasteur I tried, nothing seemed to happen. Did I do something wrong, or did I jump the gun?-- SPhilbrick (Talk)  00:35, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I had the interlock disabled to prevent random users from hitting the button. Stand by Hasteur (talk) 01:21, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, just engaged the lockout circuits. Trigger page is checked every 5 minutes, so there is a balance between requests and being patient. Hasteur (talk) 01:27, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

User:John
Apparently he associates my comments with fecal matter just because he didn't like them, he has also closed this section without apologizing for calling another editor's actions "retarded" in such a way that it made more than one person think he was calling the editor retarded.

"That seems pretty retarded. This is a "content dispute"? Seriously? --John (talk) 3:24 am, Today (UTC−5)" - relevant quote from his talkpage.

He furthermore, when questioned by multiple users, took one (mine) message off of his page, and responded to the other with "Get over yourself", and saying that "[retarded] just means 'stupid'". He also told an editor that they are "deeply, deeply confused".

Can someone have a word with him about improving his civility a little bit before someone actually gets driven off the project because of it (especially new users)? "retarded" is not appropriate in any context other than mental disability itself, and even then it's not generally appropriate, much less when talking about another contributor.

Oh, I've been requested to not post on John's talkpage, so if someone else could notify I'd really appreciate it. I'll be notifying the others in a second. ~ Charmlet -talk- 18:09, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Notification ✅ NE Ent 18:20, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks NE Ent. I try to respect peoples' wishes for me to stay off of talkpages. ~ Charmlet -talk- 18:21, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Pursuant to As I know you are not a fool, I counsel you to think long and hard before making any further edits of this type. posted on my UT page as a result of me posting on noticeboards, and as he is likely following my posts (he responded to a post I made which did not mention him by name at all with I didn't happen upon your posts; every time you mention me I get an alert on the new notifications system which, frankly, is an extraordinary claim, indeed, deleted as I had confused my noticeboard posts with the post on Bbb23's user talk page

I am not going to follow this section. Cheers, and best of luck to anyone following this. Collect (talk) 18:16, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Regardless of rights and wrongs, "every time you mention me I get an alert on the new notifications system" is correct, as long as he has the "mention" box checked. Mogism (talk) 18:28, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem is that the post did not mention him by name at all. ESP notification? Collect (talk) 18:51, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes it did, and the notification system duly notified me. --John (talk) 20:44, 22 September 2013 (UTC).
 * John is clearly correct that not only was he mentioned, but his username was linked, guaranteeing an echo notification. I suggest we let that part of it rest, it is hardly the most problematic aspect of the actions under discussion here. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:20, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Mea Culpa -- I had not mentioned him by name in any noticeboard posts, but I was concerned about the implicit threat made by him. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:00, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I've blown up at another user once or twice in my day and said some intemperate things that I probably shouldn't have. But I have never blocked a user I was involved in a content dispute with. And that is what is really problematic here. Not just the word "retarded" (as unacceptable as that obviously is) but the unwillingness to see this for what it is. He was clearly WP:INVOLVED and should not have issued that block.


 * The only hope I see for this thread having any effect is if John sees that the community, not just me, see it as such. I don't want or expect an apology or for John to grovel at my feet or anything like that, but an acknowledgement that he did in fact violate expected norms of administrative restraint as well as civility would be nice. The user he blocked was not vandalizing the article, this was an argument over the appropriateness of a source. An argument that up until he issued the block was confined entirely to reverts and edit summaries. That is just not how we do things, and anyone who has been here more than a week knows that so I would certainly expect an admin to know better. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:38, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I did just recently issued a 31 block a user I had been involved in a dispute with, User:Greengrounds, but that was to really over the top commentaries on others, and I don't think that there necessarily is a similar case here. This probably could be seen to qualify as a misuse of administrative tools, which is another serious concern. I know at least as well as anyone else around here how thinly active admins are spread through the ground of the project here, but this sort of thing is really beyond the level of acceptability. Like Beeblebrox, I don't expect any grovelling or even an apology to the editor involved, but I do believe that it might well be reasonable to at least hope that John realizes that there were other and better ways of dealing with this. I personally think and hope that this isn't considered grounds for anything drastic, and will refrain from any somewhat jokey options like talking about trout whacking. I think every admin, who has gone through a few years generally of good behavior and demonstrably earned the trust of the community, is entitled to at least one error before any action is taken, if maybe only one. And if this is the first such action, I also hope that it is the last. John Carter (talk) 21:25, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * "I didn't call him retarded, Bbb23. I called his action retarded, which it was. It just means "stupid", get over yourself. --John (talk) 17:56, 22 September 2013 (UTC)" Oh dear. There are multiple issues within that one edit alone. Personal attacks, and an apparent lack of empathy/understanding of what a "retard" is... Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 22:38, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * , I've only once had an interaction with, and although I wish the situation would have been handled differently, I don't have any issue with them and think that this conversation is slightly silly (not saying anyone here is silly, well... other than myself, but the conversation itself is silly). Technical 13 (talk) 22:51, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * John is being disruptive at various places on Wikipedia these days, as recently documented at Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive812 and elsewhere. Nothing silly about it. What's silly is that he continues to get away with such disruption. Flyer22 (talk) 23:19, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * And as far as I'm concerned, this report on him at this noticeboard should have remained. He barely considers anyone's views but his own, and is clearly going to keep on acting in the disruptive/inappropriate ways he's been acting...the Wikipedia community be damned. Flyer22 (talk) 23:25, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Stalking. I think it would be useful if John just retracts the R word and apologises for its usage. It looks better on the record and aplogies are usually a sign of strength, not weakness. Which makes me Superman considering the number of times I have apologised on here. Then all can move on. It may be the Real-Life stress thing, or many factors. Flyer lets not go on the offensive here. You offer fellow eds a "Golden Bridge" no matter what their position in the community. Cornering someone is usually seriously counterproductive. Irondome (talk) 23:40, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * My WP:Assume good faith is largely, if not entirely, empty with regard to John...for reasons that should be obvious. And if they are not, I certainly don't know what to state to that. Wanting John to not continue to get away with his disruptive/inappropriate behavior and to have a better understanding of why that behavior is disruptive/inappropriate, or to at least admit that it is if he knows that it's such, is not about "cornering [him]." He barely sees any fault with his aforementioned behavior, even though various other editors see it...and no matter how many times it is pointed out to him. Flyer22 (talk) 23:52, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * While I can clearly understand the frustration of Flyer22, and to some degree sympathize with it, I think that the frustration is over an entirely different matter, and I would regret having this thread turning into a case of people piling on with various and sundry complaints. I don't know John enough to know his individual social milieu, and it is certainly possible that in some social setting the "R" word does not have the same degree of bite that it might in others. Also, honestly, so far as I can tell, the complaints are about comments John has left on his own user talk page, and I think that there is rather a longstanding consensus to allow possibly purple language on such. Honestly, the content of this discussion seems to be becoming rather more drahmatic than the comments which instigated them. If criticising and individual over how he comments on his own user talk page is the greatest concern people have here, honestly, I suggest that they take a look at all the other open threads on the various noticeboards, which are almost all more pressing than these incivilities. If the conducted continues in a grossly unacceptable manner, a User RfC is certainly an option, but I think the discussion here is rather degenerating and losing focus to the point that it is becoming at best nonproductive. John Carter (talk) 00:04, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree with user John Carter. I think his comments are totally apt and that the thread should be ended. A consensus appears to be that User John should apologise and chill out for a bit. End of.Irondome (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * John Carter, I always appreciate your comments. However, my frustration with John has to do with every disruptive/inappropriate edit I've seen from him these days. Anyone trying to make my frustration with him simply about the BLP dispute that recently happened between the two of us (me and him) is mistaken; my frustration started there and has continued in the days since. It is not difficult to see why, given the various editors who have commented similarly on John's aforementioned behavior at that time and since then. Nor is it about dramatizing a situation, which should be obvious. After all, before the report was removed (shown in the diff-link I provided above), he was recently reported here by an administrator who somewhat shares his views on BLP matters...but believes that he has been going about those views in the wrong way. I cannot help but think that if John were not an administrator, he would not continue to be given the free passes he has been given on these matters. Flyer22 (talk) 00:19, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Flyer22, You may well be right that he has been getting a bit of a free pass lately. I don't know. But the BLP concern, honestly, seems to be under discussion elsewhere. And I wasn't necessarily describing your additions as "drahmatic", but the tone of the discussion in general seems to be drifting off base. I do note, with some reservations, that John does not on his user page describe himself as an admin open to recall. That being the case, I think of the two choices which really would possibly address this matter, a User RfC and ArbCom, considering the matters he is being criticized over are not necessarily topically related so much as temporally related, that if there are serious concerns regarding his conduct in a broad area, that maybe ArbCom might be the best way to go. Personally, I remember once arguing against an admin being seriously criticized for telling someone to "go to hell" (in some foreign language, I forget which). With reservations, I must add, although it arguably isn't so much an attack as a speculation upon the likely future destination of one's soul, depending on religious affiliation of course. If there are concerns of that serious level, though, I tend to think that a simple discussion like this, which at this point doesn't contain all the relevant evidence of recent misconduct, might not be the best place for such discussion. Starting a separate thread or sub-thread regarding his broader recent dubious conduct would be reasonable, as would, possibly, an RfC/U and/or ArbCom. But adding material on another matter to this thread makes the nature of the thread itself more drahmatic, intentionally or not, and that can make it easier for John, or anyone else facing a similar "pile-on," to write off the concerns related to the central discussion of this thread. I don't myself know if RfC/U or ArbCom are necessarily better choices, not knowing all the particulars, but it might make sense to let this thread just deal with the issue it was apparently started to address. John Carter (talk) 00:45, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Very wise words. The John matters aren't at ArbCom level yet, though. Hopefully, they don't get to that point. Flyer22 (talk) 00:51, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to simply hope John dials it down a bit but if a more formal discussion is required RFC/U would be preferable to ArbCom. NE Ent 00:59, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

While I can't say that I regularly interact with him, John is a good guy. Charmlet: Perhaps you could take a break from project-space and instead focus exclusively on article-space? --MZMcBride (talk) 00:09, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Articles aren't my thing :) But why can't we wait for User:John to comment before you all bash him? I don't want anything to happen to him, other than what someone suggested - he acknowledge that he was in the wrong with the tone/wordage of some of his comments. ~ Charmlet -talk- 01:57, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Per MZ. John is a good guy. I don't think there's any need to extract an acknowledgment, though one would be welcome. I'm sure he'll take on board what's been said here. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 00:09, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I am not involved in the instant case here having to do with reliability of sources and have thus refrained until now from commenting on this matter. In the light of the above discussion, however, I have decided to do so now because of the similarities they describe with an unsettling interaction I had with this user/admin in the past ten days. I believe this may now be useful for others to consider in evaluating this user's patterns of behavior toward both editing and dealing with other WP contributors. My case had to do with the use of the words "however", "just", "actually" and "virtually" in the article Charles Lindbergh (which in a posting he misspelled as "Lindburgh"), an article that I have been helping to develop and expand with others for more than five years (almost 1,000 edits). On September 11 and 12, User:John unilaterally deleted all these words from the article (and in some cases substituted words for them that made no sense), did so only with an amorphous, uninformative edit summary "ce", and when asked why claimed as his grounds that the use of these and any similar words on WP is prohibited as a matter of WP policy because they constitute "worthless padding" (no, I'm not kidding). I pointed out to him here that these words have specific meanings that show relationships to other persons, events, chronology, etc, and that his removing or changing them materially changed the clear and intended meaning of the text. (I later asked him to cite any specific policies or guidelines that support his contention that these words are banned from WP, but that request was met with silence.)


 * As I had never seen this user make any edits to the Lindbergh article in the five years that I have been working on it as the entry's most active contributor by far, I also pointed out that the language he was altering had been in place for years and observed that he was "apparently not aware that all these various issues have been discussed, worked out, and agreed upon over the years among this article's most active editors." I advised him that the changes he was making also "go against that long established consensus", and that I would therefore ask him "to respect that and not reintroduce these issues in the name of 'style' over 'substance'."


 * User:John's response to that observation about his non-activity/unfamiliarity with the article was to claim that 'Hmm, I've been editing this article since 2006" which surprised me as I had never seem him edit the article or, for that matter, had ever even heard of him before. It also didn't take me long to determine that his claim about his "experience" editing the article to be completely false and misleading.  A review of the entire history of the Lindbergh entry going back to its creation on September 9, 2002‎ reveals that prior to John's mass deletions made on September 11 and 12, just two edits' (out of more than 6,000) to it had ever been made to it by this user—one (removing several wikilinks) on June 2, 2006 and the other (an RVV) on September 6, 2006. This represented just 0.032% of the total activity on the Lindbergh article—and none in more than seven years.  This certainly did not comport with the spirit or implication of his statement that "I've been editing this article since 2006" nor did it in any way serve to support that he could possibly be familiar with the history of development of the article. He also again unilaterally removed the "offending" words and "advised" me that I should "resist the temptation to revert others' copyedits."


 * I responded to this with a long and detailed explanation (giving many specific examples) of why the usages of the words he objected to were appropriate, essential to properly communicate the precise meaning intended, did not constitute POV or "editorializing", did not violate well-established editing practices, and were not inconsistent with the article's neutrality. I then again asked him to accept the long standing consensus achieved about the use of language in this article (with which he had no demonstrated history of either following or editing), and to respect how it has been developed over the years by myself and many other editors. His "response" this time was to ignore all the points that I made in my posting and instead accuse me of being "out of line with the rest of the project and indeed the worldwide community of good writers of English." He followed this up with saying "Why not request some other opinions?"


 * In my detailed reply I again pointed out that "getting other opinions" had been "a continuous part of the ongoing process of developing this article" over the five years I have been working on it, that "plenty of opinions had been offered and discussed from time to time as issues arose and when necessary compromises and/or consensus reached on the language used in this article", and that "in all that time nobody had ever expressed that they had any problems with the usage or style" of the language and/or words that seemed to be bothering him. I also pointed out that if he had ever been a contributor to (or follower of) this article (which he clearly had not been) he would have already known that.


 * In addition I also pointed out to User:John that "there are no "Editors in Chief" on WP, and that being an Admin comes with no special rights to unilaterally enforce one's personal views on the rest of us just plain editors, and that actually the function of an admin is quite the opposite." Instead, I observed, that "When the community entrusts a user with sysop tools it does so with the expectation that he or she will assume good faith on the behalf of other contributors, will act objectively and with neutrality, will honor the consensus of the community even if they may personally disagree with it, and never to use (or even threaten to use) his or her sysop tools in a dispute in which the admin is personally an involved party."


 * His written response to this was to ignore all the points I made and instead tell me that I should master "the difficult niceties of writing clear, encyclopedic, English prose." (As an aside on my writing ability, I have been a professional writer for more then 45 years, have written many hundreds of published articles on a variety of subjects, and am also the author or author/editor of seven published non-fiction books four of which are on the history of railroads in North America.)


 * In my final posting in the thread with John (which he had started), I expressed my concern and uneasiness with his approach to making blanket, unilateral deletions and other changes in the Lindbergh and other similar articles as well as how he deals with their contributors as being inconsistent with what is expected by the community of an admin. In addition I advised him that I also found troubling his apparent pattern of abjectly refusing to accept—and his attempts to unilaterally revert—long settled community consensus if he personally disagreed with it, his condescending and dismissive attitude toward fellow volunteer editors and apparent failure to assume good faith on the behalf of other contributors with whom he disagrees, his failure to act objectively and with neutrality in such cases, and his penchant for making implied or actual threat(s) to employ his sysop tools in disputes in which you are also an involved party.


 * I have no personal emnity for, nor any previous history of interactions with, User:John on WP. The sum total of my contact with him consists exclusively of his edits to the Lindbergh entry and the thread discussed here that he opened on my talk page on September 12 and which was closed five days later on September 17. Centpacrr (talk) 02:26, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This must be the silliest AN thread in a long time. --Epipelagic (talk) 07:30, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * With respect, Epipelagic, no discussion of misbehavior or failure for follow the policies and guidelines of the Project, or to respect and accept the consensus of the community, on the part of an Admin is ever "silly", and especially one that has already drawn comments supporting these concerns from almost a dozen users in little more than 24 hours. Centpacrr (talk) 07:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes Epipelagic, comments like yours are neither helpful nor welcome, so cut it out. If you want to chime in that you personally think there's no real case or problem here, that's OK, although either some refutation (brief and cogent to the extent possible) of the points made, or else counterpoints or new data, would be a lot more helpful. We're trying to get work done here.


 * As to case in question, it looks knotty because the man's been here awhile and has, I assume, been doing yeoman work generally. I'd like to get a sense of his overall contributions. There's maybe an Ed Poor-type vibe here (for those of you with long memories) or perhaps the man is just tired or dissatisfied, which God knows would be understandable. At any rate, I'd request the admin corps to keep eyes on the overall situation as it develops. Hopefully this will just be a bump in the road (and we all have those!) for the editor in question. Herostratus (talk) 13:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't know, Herostratus, John has been making a lot of wholesale deletions of content that have prompted discussions at the BLP Noticeboard and the RS Noticeboard. It might be appropriate to issue a "cease and desist" request until the issues surrounding these mass deletions is concluded. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 15:36, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, OK. I didn't know there was such as thing a "cease and desist" order but yes OK that seems to be in order here. Herostratus (talk) 16:02, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

This discussion is most certainly silly. Some might even call it retarded. :-) --MZMcBride (talk) 21:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Frankly, I'm astounded that you would make what you apparently think is a joke in the context of this thread.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:42, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry. No levity allowed, I suppose! --MZMcBride (talk) 23:56, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This topic was opened as an incivility complaint. It has devolved into a discussion of multiple issues (BLP sources and involved). Although I know there's a tendency on these boards to explore other conduct than that which initiated the topic and there is some linkage between these topics, I would like to see John apologize for the comment and explore any other issues in separate topics. And, yes, I believe he should apologize for using the word "retarded", regardless of whether it was aimed at a particular editor or not. I don't think any formal sanctions are called for.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:47, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * While the original issue raised may have been a single use of the word "retarded", a variety of users have brought up a number other more pervasive and serious issues of concern relating to what appears to be long standing ongoing patterns of misconduct and/or disruptive behavior that I think deserve to and should be addressed here and now as opposed to just "kicking the can down the road". Centpacrr (talk) 00:45, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * As one of the editors drawing John's barbs this week I see no use forcing an apology from him. He's been editing today so is probably aware of the status of this thread. Apologies to Centpacrr but I do suggest we "kick this can down the road" with the hopes that the BLP issues drawing John's passion are settled by the community and he can dial his remarks back a bit. -- Neil N  <sup style="font-family:Calibri;"> talk to me  01:07, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The reason I suggested that these issues be handled here is that the patterns of the user's disruptive behavior appear to be considerably more pervasive and go far beyond some isolated BLP deletions and sourcing issues and therefore should be addressed in their totality in one place. Centpacrr (talk) 01:28, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You have good reason to be annoyed with his behaviour at Charles Lindbergh. And he has been uncharacteristically intemperate elsewhere. But, having watched John's behaviour here for many years - we've never interacted directly, I think - I'm confident that this little review is all that's required at this point. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:38, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * John did not direct the word retarded towards any editor, but towards a silly claim that when he removed content inappropriately sourced to tabloids he was involved in a content dispute. The other crime John is accused of is improving the standard of English in articles. This is a frivolous and disappointing thread, which includes gratuitous drama mongering by some people who should know better. --Epipelagic (talk) 01:42, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think any sanctions are necessary, and I agree that "retarded" was directed toward a statement, not toward an editor. Nevertheless, that word (just like "retard") is hurtful to many people. Basically, it uses a medical diagnosis (which in itself is not without controversy when phrased like this) as a hyperbolic simile, saying "this statement is so stupid, it's retarded". Whether directed toward a person or a statement, it can be seen as using a group of (real) people as a benchmark of stupidity. This is painful to a lot of people. Sure, not everyone who has loved ones who struggle with mental challenges on a daily basis will be offended, but some will. Admittedly, the "euphemism treadmill" isn't always logical (we can say "idiotic" or "moronic", and it's politically correct, though still offensive :-), but why offend uninvolved people for no good reason? So, why not just not use those words in the future. I'm positive John didn't mean to be offensive in that way, and I don't think an apology is necessary, but let's just not use that word. Shouldn't be that difficult. --Sluzzelin talk  01:56, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Just for clarity's sake I'd like to point out a few things. I did not open this thread and I am not asking for sanctions or frankly any other admin action. However I stand by my unblock 100% and reject any suggesting that repeatedly reverting another user who was not vandalizing does not constitute involvement in a content dispute. Admins are not granted the authority to control the content of articles by blocking those they disagree with. Whether the other user was in the right or not is irrelevant. If John felt admin action was needed he should have asked for an uninvolved admin to handle it. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:08, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, I don't altogether disagree with your unblock. John has got a bit testy lately, and maybe needs to recharge. But the baying for blood going on here testifies more to a dysfunctional community than something wrong with John. --Epipelagic (talk) 03:04, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I never wanted this - All I wanted was an apology and an acknowledgement that he was in the wrong with his comments. Instead, he has blown off the substance of this AN thread, which makes me think that frankly, he does need a break from Wikipedia. Whether or not this needs to be an enforced break should be determined. ~ Charmlet -talk- 03:07, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The sum of all this is that John said "flush" while removing a comment he didn't like, and his calling a comment "retarded". I don't think I would use the word "retarded", but when I was growing up it was not the words of words, and I think John and I are the same age. If there is more, start an RfC/U. If you want to rap him on the knuckles for using the R-word, well, that's been done enough by now. FWIW, I would not have made the block he made, and I think it was an error. But all this for one flush and one word? That's not what AN is for. Somebody please close this. Drmies (talk) 03:26, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * While the use of the word "retarded" was the reason this thread was started, a variety of other related issues have since been raised in it by a number of other editors so that is no longer only about "one word" but also about considering evidence of patterns of disruptive editing and improper use of sysop tools by an admin. Centpacrr (talk) 04:03, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. Like I said, start an RfC/U if you like. Drmies (talk) 04:24, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait, their using "flush" was part of this? Geez, next thing you know somebody will be rung up over the round file. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:41, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Topic Ban Removal Request
In this thread, I was topic banned on all matters related to the Falkland Islands. This is an area of editing in which I had made a significant and prolific contribution. I am requesting that topic ban is revoked.

The basis of the topic ban proposed by User:Dpmuk was that the constant back and forth between us was making consensus impossible. At the time, I did really defend myself as I was utterly despondent after nearly a year of harassment from User:Gaba p.

As shown here the animosity stemmed from a block as a suspected sock puppet of User:Alex79818. You will please note that one of the factors in unblocking him, was that I gave additional details to User: JamesBWatson. As a result, he was given another chance to edit. Please note that both the original blocking admin and User:JamesBWatson considered the original case for sock puppetry to be compelling.

As a result of this Gaba p continued to follow my edits attacking me personally it was constant and unremitting. He was incapable of commenting on content but was constantly pointing fingers, a good example is the archive.

The thread was opened on 13 May. Please note that I agreed to a self-imposed moratorium on April 30, in which I agreed to stop commenting to allow others to comment. An agreement User:Gaba p broke almost immediately wikilawyering to claim it was only on one thread. The only reason I had in fact commented was at the request of User:Dpmuk.

The basis of the topic ban was the allegation of a constant back and forth. As I have noted I had in fact ceased to be active in the talk page for a period of two weeks before this was started. On my talk page User:Dpmuk acknowledged that "my gut feeling is that Gaba_p is more likely the root cause".

I ask it to be noted that I remained civil, I discussed content not personalities, I went to WP:ANI to ask that an editor repeatedly warned for incivility and blocked for personal attacks simply be stopped from bullying me. A number of false allegations were made and diffs falsified (I even demonstrated this was the case). By using smoke screen tactics he got away with it repeatedly.

Can I ask that is the message you wished to send was that remaning civil and discussing content, when faced by an editor that was uncivil and commented on editors not content, is a complete waste of time. Wee Curry Monster talk 21:33, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

As requested ANI threads, ,, (please note and forgive a certain frustration on the last diff).

Attempts to resolve at WP:DR eg (Note who walked away) and  This was a bizarre occasion where I was accused of blocking something I never commented on. Wee Curry Monster talk 22:05, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * First, I note it hasn't been six months since the topic ban was imposed, which is the general "ask for a review after this time" line. Secondly, I note that this sure looks like a violation of said topic ban. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:27, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Rubbish. Firstly, a topic-ban cannot remove an editor's right to complain to AN/I for redress, and secondly, the six-months period is effectively imposed on those who wish to show they have understood and appreciated the reason(s) for the TB. If the TB was unfairly / incorrectly given, it should be dealt with immediately. Cheers! <b style="color:Green;">Basket </b><sub style="color:orange;">Feudalist 09:18, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Except that's not a complaint to AN/I for redress - that's an interjecton into a discussion other editors had been involved in on the topic-banned subject, about issues that had arisen after the topic ban was imposed, in which he had not even been mentioned prior to his interjection, and for which the diff he gives that alerted him to a discussion on ANI was for another subject entirely. Although we've sniped a bit in the past at times I like WCM's editing style and honestly thought the initial topic ban was a bit OTT myself, but a topic ban is a topic ban and I'm having a very hard time seeing that as anything other than a violation of it. - The Bushranger One ping only 10:25, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Bushranger, my comment that you refer to was not about the topic ban but that the two guys I mentioned should be banned from anything to do with WP:MOSNUM relating to units as their advocacy of the metric system leads to damage to wikipedia as a project. The current Falkland Islands discussion is simply another manifestation of it, another example is Munro (a Munro is a mountain in Scotland with a height over 3,000 ft) where User:Michael Glass edited the article to give preference to the metric system (so the lede now gives the definition in one order and the rest of it in the other).  It also touched on premier league football, with editing to change height to give preference to metric first.  Petty as their campaign may be, its also infuriating and irritating for anyone concerned with article quality.  They have caused numerous problems at WT:MOSNUM with various proposals to metricate wikipedia and cannot accept it it doesn't have consensus.
 * As I commented above and amplified by reference to my attempts to use WP:DR, I consider the topic ban to be both punitive and unjust. Hence, I am asking for it to be removed.  When I had problems in the past I have always acknowledged my faults and have not had a problem with editing restrictions being imposed.  In this case it is decidedly punitive, treating me as the victim of a bullying campaign as equally problematic as the perpetrator.  This is fundamentally unfair and unjust.  Wee Curry Monster talk 11:36, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Following WCM's topic ban I offered to help them in a mentoring role. If WCM is interested, that offer stands. During the discussion of the topic ban I suggested that WCM take a voluntary three month break from Falklands-related topics, a position which did not win any other support. While I don't endorse all of WCM's conduct (especially the edit warring), I think that he or she genuinely means well, so it would be a positive if an arrangement was in place which enabled them to edit Falklands-related topics again - I would suggest that a 0RR or 1RR restriction for six months or so would be particularly helpful. However, I'd be interested in the views of other editors who work on this topic as it's not one which I follow closely. Nick-D (talk) 10:31, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Nick, I keep hearing the comment it takes two to edit war. Such comments are a rather trite response to something I kept asking and never got a reply to.  If you're editing in an area where one editor constantly edit wars to impose their views and you as a good content editor don't revert, then they always win and article quality suffers.  If you try WP:DR and WP:ANI and you're constantly told to work with a disruptive editor to get a consensus, with an editor whose idea of consensus is to edit war their views into the article what the hell are you supposed to do?  If it were an area of general interest then you do get a number of editors interested who will pitch in but if you're editing a niche area there isn't the wider pool of editors.  Then you're left with editor behaviour and I will reiterate I remained civil and focused on content, which was supported by sourcing.  You would find it difficult to claim the others involved reciprocated, where their behaviour was uncivil and has remained uncivil and despite repeated warnings to desist no one did a damn thing about it.  The lack of action on warnings only emboldened them to escalate their disruptive behaviour and even then I didn't reciprocate.
 * If you wish to convert this topic ban on me into a 1RR restriction fine, I don't edit war, I was simply placed in an impossible position. Wee Curry Monster talk 11:36, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This is pretty much the problem. Curry Monster's use of the word "win" is un-PC on Wikipedia, but the fact is that that's the way it works in practice.  An editor - Gaba - puts their version on.  If you revert, they revert back and start abusing you on talk.  If you stop reverting, and no consensus is reached for the point on talk (which is unlikely because they're stonewalling and abusing you), the non-consensus material remains on the article regardless - because if you try and bring the article back to consensus after the end of the discussion, they just revert you again, and start accusing you of edit warring.  You take it to the boards, and admins won't do anything, which emboldens those who are stonewalling.  Or if they do, they punish you (as they did Curry Monster) for not being able to reason with someone who refuses to be reasoned with.


 * As Curry Monster says, if there were a few dozen regulars, more than one person can deal with it. But when there are (say) three or four, this no longer works.  The article just gets worse as the consensus process is subverted. Kahastok talk 21:33, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: I see Wee Curry Monster is sadly attacking me once again, this time for no apparent reason (not the first time since the topic ban either ). I won't bother posting long comments about the other side of the story that Wee is obviously leaving out, if some editor/admin wants to hear that the ANIs are a good place to start and they are more than welcome to ask me for anything that needs clarification. That said I'll just make two minor comments: first, when the topic ban was imposed we were told that in order for it to ever be removed we should spend several months outside of the disputed issue editing WP in other areas as a sign of good faith. If anybody cares to look at my contribution history they'll see that I've made quite an effort to start editing on a great number of new topics, which I do to this day whithout a single issue. Wee on the other hand slapped a "Retired" banner on his user page (at least the third time he's announced his retirement from WP) and edited as an IP a couple of Gibraltar articles. It isn't fair that he gets to ask for a removal of the topic ban based entirely on making me look once again as the disruptive user and himself as the victim (which he has been doing for the good part of a year now), something he is forced to resort to since he has absolutely nothing else to show for. Second, The topic ban violation that The Bushranger points to is actually his third one as I pointed out at the time.
 * Before the accusations of WP:HOUNDING begin (or continue actually) I was notified of this post since Wee used my full WP user name which triggers an immediate notification. Wee apparently didn't think it was necessary to post a notice in my talk page about this ANI (something he is required to do, specially since it is is 90% based on me) but he made sure to do so at the talk pages of anybody that he thought could stop by to help him. Had he not resorted to lambasting me as the center of his request I would certainly not be here. Anyway. Regards. Gaba  <sup style="color:green;">(talk)  12:13, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This edit was reporting user misconduct of concern to an admin, without violating my topic ban. Please review the full topic and  someone having the last word in the usual uncivil manner.
 * This edit should be read in context with this one, where I advised Marshal I would not accede to his suggestion to circumvent my topic ban off-wiki by email. An example of User:Gaba p quoting a diff out context.  Please note I don't think, in fact I know, Marshal did not intend anything untoward with that suggestion.
 * Pls note I edited occasionally as an IP as I did scramble my password and I made sure my edits were identifiable, I reset my password via email and disabled the wikibreak enforcer. I may remain retired as I am still not sure about contributing again.  But I want the topic ban lifted as it was and remains unjust. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:19, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Strong 'Oppose I believe that Wee Curry Monster's topic ban should not be lifted. One reason is this | foul-mouthed rant. WCM changed this rant - after I called him out over it. However, the fact that he made it in the first place demonstrates the appropriateness of his banning and the desirability for his banning to continue. Michael Glass (talk) 13:33, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * For information, refactored my comment because the language was inappropriate. The tit for tat nature of Michael's opposition, demanding I provide evidence knowing that I can't reply because of this topic ban. His strong oppose should be read in that light.  Wee Curry Monster talk 15:19, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Strong Agree to Topic Ban lifting User Gaba p thinks he is clever in what he writes here. He perceives that many administrators are often too busy to go back and look at the entire history of these articles.  Gaba p's irrational vendetta against Wee and anyone who disagrees with him stems back to a very old disagreement.  When, as an editor on these articles, I agreed with Wee, a sexest and vial remark was put on Gabap's page about me in the form of a question by his alter ego, Langus txt, to the effect that I had some kind of inappropriate relationship with the subject editor whom I have never met nor worked with.  I will be happy to provide it for anyone who asks. If he thought to run me off he was disappointed in that it made me all the more determined.  Apparently he still does not realize that this kind of talk is no longer tolerated by women or Wikipedia.  I should have reported him at the time but did not.  Now I am sorry I didn't.  He has obviously not learned his lession.  There is something very strange about this editor's motivations and I, unlike him, will not specualate except to state that it is my firm belief that he sees Wikipedia as a "game" and anyone who comes between he and his "game playing" is shot down in the most vulgar terms. He will act the "innocent" when he reads this as he has before.
 * The important fact is that the articles have suffered significantly as a result of the departure of Wee and editors who agree with Wee's unbiased POV on these articles. A short read of the Falkland articles will show they now show a significant Argentine non-neutral POV.Mugginsx (talk) 15:27, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * God Mugginsx please not this again. Every time you make the accustion of "a sexest and vial remark" I am forced to go through the history of my talk page to provide the diff (because you won't) showing how ridiculous it is. Here's the diff with the comment Mugginsx refers to in my talk page. You'll immediately notice two things: 1- it was a completely sensible and reasonable question brought up by the aggressiveness with which Mugginsx both defends WCM and attacks anyone who she see as his "enemy"; 2- the comment was not made by me but by User:Langus-TxT. The fact that it was another editor who made that comment has been pointed out to Mugginsx not only by me but by an admin in a previous ANI but that apparently hasn't stopped her from trying to use it as "evidence" of me being sexist. There's really not much more to say about this. Regards. Gaba  <sup style="color:green;">(talk)  17:50, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I see that the remark has been amended to make it less offensive. The "relative" question was not originally in there. Nice try though.Mugginsx (talk) 18:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Amended?? Mugginsx for the love of god I can't believe after all this time editing you still don't know the basics of how WP works. That is a single edit made in a single block. See how before there was nothing and then the comment was made? That is the same comment you referred to and it has been since the moment it was made. If you have any doubts then please go though the history of my talk page and convince yourself that it of course was not refactored ever. Whatever you do please let this be the last time you accuse me of making a sexist remark since the fact that you are wrong has been explained to you over and over again. Regards. Gaba  <sup style="color:green;">(talk)  19:11, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You changed it to make it seem harmless. Mugginsx (talk) 19:25, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Could somebody please explain to Mugginsx that I can not change what's archived in the history of a talk page ? She will clearly never believe me for some reason. Gaba  <sup style="color:green;">(talk)  19:36, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "She" doesn't know, after five years, how things work here in general, I'm afraid. You may be wasting your breath... <b style="color:Green;">Basket </b><sub style="color:orange;">Feudalist 19:38, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What's this? another one of your "friends" Or perhaps another alter-ego?  You sure can pick them.  This is an ANI about whether or not the topic ban should be lifted on Wee.  Try to focus.Mugginsx (talk) 20:19, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I give up. Please remember this thread for future reference Mugginsx, because I really wish that this is the last time I have to withstand your ridiculous accusations. Regards. Gaba  <sup style="color:green;">(talk)  23:53, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I know what it takes to remove an edit and the edit summary and I stand by my accusation to you. Mugginsx (talk) 17:00, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Strong Support lifting. The ban was always wrong.  Curry Monster has long been an productive editor on Falklands topics, and his knowledge and understanding of the topic have been sorely missed over the past few months.


 * I said at the time that if we had just banned Gaba and nobody else, the page would have carried on exactly as it has done. Other than an outbreak of the units debate, things have been broadly peaceful.  OTOH, if we had just banned another editor (including Curry Monster) and not Gaba, the page would have carried on exactly as it was before, with continual confrontation and no possible progress.  No other editor who did not start at Gaba's position was having any more success with reasoning with him than Curry Monster was.  It was just that Gaba seemed to have it in for Curry Monster.


 * I understand Curry Monster's frustration on the current dispute; while the way he put it originally was not the most appropriate. It is certainly frustrating that editors who have done so much damage to the topic - continually bringing up the same points, over and over again, week after week, month after month, year after year - are allowed free reign with no admin willing to do a thing about it, while he, a good content editor with a strong interest in the topic, is topic banned.  It is frustrating for me, let alone him.  Curry Monster should be allowed to edit on these articles, for the good of the encyclopædia. Kahastok talk 20:25, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * More attacks on me by Kahastok, who would've guessed. Please note that Kahastok has been topic banned in the past for teaming with Wee Curry Monster in Gibraltar related articles. He'll do and say pretty much anything to have Wee's ban lifted and since Wee has nothing to show for in terms of editing (except for the "Retired" banner announcing his "retirement" from WP for the third time), attacking me is the last resort. This is exacerbated by how things are turning out here, where Kahastok is rapidly losing the firm grip he and Wee use to have in all things units-related regarding the Falklands.  Gaba  <sup style="color:green;">(talk)  23:53, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * That comment is little more than a personal attack, ironic seeing as mine was based around why Curry Monster should be un-banned, as a good editor who has contributed greatly to Falklands topics over the course of many years. I don't think Gaba should be un-banned because the above - with an additional dose of stonewalling - is pretty typical of his contribution style on Falklands topics.  All we'd end up with is paralysis. Kahastok talk 17:31, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Strong support lifting Irrespective of the "political" nnd personality background of which I am well aware, I think the original ban was excessive. I've always tried to be neutral here but editors with great subject(s) knowledge and productivity, such as WCM are sorely missed by the project. I would say that of any bloody good ed. Cheers Irondome (talk) 22:48, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose. I have participated actively in discussions that led to the topic ban, and I think that I can confidently say that:


 * User:Wee Curry Monster has not made a "significant and prolific contribution" in this topic in regards to history and the sovereignty dispute, but rather entered a biased version and then defended it staunchly, aided by a systemic bias that exists on these topics due to language, and resorting to indiscriminate reversals, misrepresentation of sources and straw-man arguments that resulted in the obfuscation of talk pages.


 * User:Gaba p did not bully him but simply persevered in his opposition to these actions, demanding proper grounding and discussing content all the time.


 * This behaviour can be seen by carefully examining talk-page archives (e.g., starting here) and you can visit this page for hints on how biased WCM's version is, although I just scratched the surface there. This is a sensible subject, which WP should not falsify. I never felt that banning WCM would solve the root problem, but it will probably make matters worse if his ban is lifted without there being any signs to expect more-productive behaviour. On the contrary, his latest feat was to ignore his ban and intimidate User:MarshalN20 from requesting sources from me in my user space. in what I see as yet another disturbance to an attempt to improve reliability. -- Andrés Djordjalian (talk) 00:01, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You appear to be a bastion of NPOV from your input. I think kettles calling pots black applies here. Your pro Argentine POV is palpable. Irondome (talk) 00:23, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * His pro-Argentine POV is valuable. Furthermore, Andres has demonstrated to aim for NPOV when editing. The Argentine slant at times does appear, the same which happens to pro-UK POV editors, but it is nothing the community cannot balance. Not only that, but the contribution of quality material and display of academic honesty makes Andres an editor worthy of respect. Regardless, he is entitled to an opinion different from ours with regards to Wee.-- MarshalN20 | <font color="Olive">T <font color="Silver">al <font color="Olive">k 00:42, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that academic personal expression is inviolable. However, how is any POV valuable? In the context of the projects NPOV mission? I am not attacking, merely exploring an idea. Maybe this is the unsaid elephant in the room that needs admitting, by all sides, if we are to go forward. Irondome (talk) 01:18, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * POV is valuable because it provides a context and starting point (much like a hypothesis prior to experimentation). I think Wikipedia is wrong in trying to censor editors (or sources) based on their viewpoints or beliefs. What should be evaluated is the content contributions, which should aim for the five pillars.
 * Yes, the unsaid elephant you mention is always present (throughout Wikipedia, not just here), but its presence is always silent because its taboo to speak of it. This causes situations where non-neutral editors masquerade as neutral, increasing distrust among contributors and preventing the possibility of balance by forming a false NPOV standard.
 * Moving forward just requires that editors acknowledge their own bias and stop pretending to have a NPOV. Andres is a fine example, and I consider myself one as well. Of course, using myself as an example is pretty poor since the current incoherent system has punished me with an excessive topic ban on Latin American history. But, if there was a solution to the problem, then it would not exist. Pessimism at its finest, I know, but undeniable.-- MarshalN20 | <font color="Olive">T <font color="Silver">al <font color="Olive">k 03:13, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * , did you read, for example, this review that I'm writing? Why would you disregard that work? Are the sources unreliable, my arguments silly, or what? I see no substance in your criticism and I hope readers will visit the review before buying it.
 * Of course I have my POV, but I have read a lot on this subject and I'm caring to debate properly and provide the most objective position that I can. What makes you think that WCM or whoever's version is not a POV? I am not criticizing WCM for having a POV, please read more carefully.
 * It's better to avoid personalization like in "You appear to be" or "Your Argentine POV" and comment on work instead. And let's not fall into a middle-ground fallacy. The fact that I'm opposing a view that I deem biased (occasionally with passion because I'm facing harsh opposition and I'm human) doesn't mean that my position is also very biased. Don't disregard so easily the possibility that it is the published version that is very much biased and I'm simply trying to correct it. -- Andrés Djordjalian (talk) 03:57, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

What would remain an outstanding issue is how to prevent talk page discussions from reaching a WP:TLDR point of no return, but this is an issue which Wikipedia has yet to resolve in a comprehensive manner. Perhaps taking up Nick-D's mentorship offer would not be a bad idea, but another good option is a suggestion for Wee to make better use of other venues (Third opinion, Noticeboards, etc.) and let community consensus work its magic. Best wishes.-- MarshalN20 | <font color="Olive">T <font color="Silver">al <font color="Olive">k 00:42, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Strong Support (with some restrictions): There is no good reason for either Wee or Gaba to be topic banned from Falklands-related articles. The problem here is that both of them have clear irreconcilable points of view, and neither of them can properly interact with each other. Moreover, both editors also find it difficult to distance themselves from discussions (in other words, matters become very personal, very easily). As a result, discussions eventually become long, boring, pointless. But, to be fair, most Wikipedians behave that way...and Wee is certainly nowhere near the worst of them. In fact, Wee's knowledge on the subject is (as Irondome states) important, and his editing is (with rare mistakes) rational, well-intentioned, and positive for the project. That said, I recommend that the following restrictions be placed for the sake of stability:
 * 1) Interaction ban between Wee and Gaba. If they can't behave well with each other, regardless of where they edit, there is no reason they should interact at all. Also, Wee's harassment concerns need to be addressed, and this is one way to do it.
 * 2) 1RR rule in all Falklands-related topics. This suggestion is mainly to diminish the margin of error from the above analysis (assuming I am missing something in the analysis). Plus, it's a good way to protect users from edit-warring accusations.
 * I would agree with 1/ above. Clarify please, are you saying WCMs accusations of harassment should be officially investigated? 2/ totally support until situation is finally stabalised. In terms of talk page interaction, WCM from his talk page history has clearly requested that he not be the receipient of any messages by G. Both parties should be mentored, or none. Gaba is deeply at fault also, if we are discussing behavioural issues. I think taking up other venues should be for both parties. Or neither. Irondome (talk) 01:27, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, ideally Wee's harassment accusations should be investigated. But, who really wants to spend time on that? I doubt even Wee wants to revisit matters he considers uncomfortable. The point here is that there is a clear interaction problem between Wee and Gaba, and the best solution available is the interaction ban.
 * Therefore, assuming the lack of a benevolent harassment analysis, the interaction ban is also a good way to address Wee's harassment concerns. It's also a good way to address Gaba's concern about being accused of harassment. Win-win at its finest.
 * Removing the topic ban for either Wee and Gaba should have, as requirement, both of the restrictions mentioned above. I would also add the mentorship as a requirement, but trust Wee's final decision on it. Of course, additional venues should certainly be for both parties...but I have the irksome feeling that the community banned them because they were tired of their discussions.-- MarshalN20 | <font color="Olive">T <font color="Silver">al <font color="Olive">k 03:13, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That it did. An acute point. Irondome (talk) 03:29, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support both and encourage WCM to accept offer of mentorship. NE Ent 11:00, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I would dearly love the WP:HOUNDing to be investigated, I have had enough. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:43, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think you are summarizing the trouble between Gaba and WCM well. Consider, for example, this discussion. We are still waiting for WCM to point out where in Destefani he believes those statements to be, so that he justifies his reverts. (Hint: they are not there!) As you can read there, the source he does provide states that Port Egmont was founded before other settlements, which we know isn't true as zillions of sources (official & independent) clarify, but WCM believes it to be encyclopedic material anyway. Or take a look at this other discussion. WCM keeps saying that Argentina rejected uti possidetis juris in 1848 and I am left begging for a source. Apparently he offers Metford 1968, so I ask him where in that paper does Metford say that. Again, silence. Hint: Metford doesn't say that! The discussion continues here, where Metford 1968 becomes a magic paper that contains several claims imagined by WCM. I request precision from him but obtain nothing. I could go on and on. Apart from the citation fraud, many straw-man arguments are presented and practically all of the edits I attempted were reverted, often with no justification given. This is not just a matter of irreconcilable opinions. Please examine those talk pages more carefully.
 * Interaction bans will only serve the permanence of the status quo, which is extremely poor. There is a systemic bias in this subject. If those few who can counteract this bias have their possibilities diminished due to interaction bans, then the systemic bias will become stronger. -- Andrés Djordjalian (talk) 16:51, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Academic dishonesty is quite serious, but Wee (and Gaba) were topic banned for other reasons. If you want to make a case for dishonesty, the matter should be addressed through a RFC/user or maybe even ArbComm. However, my suggestion here is to keep things calm (stop the "war" between Wee and Gaba in a positive manner). Interaction bans are meant to stop users from commenting/interacting with each other, and that does not mean Gaba is not allowed to work in Falkland Islands topics.
 * It's also important to understand that much of the problem is a result of dispute intensification due to lack of community contributions. Third opinions are often either not asked or ignored, "consensus" is attained with insincere intentions, and dispute resolution is resolved through blocks/bans instead of comprehensive solutions (so, going that route is inherently discouraged).
 * Ultimately, what other solution is available than this one? Keeping Wee and Gaba topic banned has only stopped discussions, but is that good for the articles? Best regards.-- MarshalN20 | <font color="Olive">T <font color="Silver">al <font color="Olive">k 19:13, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe the ban was due to their general behaviour, so I wanted to point out that there was more than a confrontation of opinions. I wouldn't say that was mischievously dishonest. I can imagine him believing, for example, that Destefani's narration of two British invasions on colonial dominions of Spain during a war, plus its assertive mercantile interests in the region, is support for stating that, according to Argentina, Britain wanted territorial conquest in the emancipated Americas 25 years later. But that is absurd on so many levels! Yet he wants that statement to remain so he disrupted any question that was raised. I would rather classify it as a case of bias-based lack of competence amplified by a systemic bias. That's not good for the articles. As I imagine it, an interaction ban will simply mean that I will have to deal with this nonsense by myself. And now he wants free reign by banning Langus's interaction and mine too? How would the mechanics be if he edits in something that I find questionable or vice versa? -- Andrés Djordjalian (talk) 22:07, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see how Wee's suggested interaction bans with either you or Langus has any strong justification. The ban simply needs to be between Gaba and Wee. In any case, this is not about giving Wee free reign over the article. The lesson we all have to learn from this situation is that using resources such as Third Opinion, Reliable Sources Noticeboard, etc. should be a standard (rather than an option), and the community must be allowed to freely contribute in such cases (instead of filling up the requests with more of the same arguments and fights).
 * As bothersome as it may be for some, a good example of the community's effective "invisible hand" is the current dispute over the metric units.-- MarshalN20 | <font color="Olive">T <font color="Silver">al <font color="Olive">k 00:42, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Strong Support. Wee Curry Monster has been contributing greatly to the Falklands topics articles for quite some years now, developing in the process an extensive and deep knowledge of the subject matter, and keeping a fair NPOV balance in his WP activities too.  The topic ban was misguided and should be lifted, I believe.  As a matter of fact, we now see an effort (the metric/imperial units affair) apparently aimed at placing in a similar situation another important contributor to the Falklands-related articles, Kahastok.  That is not beneficial for WP and ought not to be encouraged. Apcbg (talk) 06:15, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I run the risk of sounding confrontational but I need to say this. Please think of this. is here saying that he believes that a clause in the 1849 Arana-Southern treaty stipulated that "Inglaterra se quedaba con las Malvinas" (England got the Malvinas). This is a gross mistake, but I want to point out something else. If the treaty really said that, it would change everything. The dispute would be settled, full stop. Can someone who is inquisitive and informed on this subject make that mistake? Wouldn't she or he at least bother to look up this all-important clause in the text of the treaty? The treaty can be easily found on the web. To my judgment,  Kahastok's frequent vehement arguments on this subject were rather poor, and now this. Would it be too crazy to claim that he has been infringing WP:COMPETENCE and simply opposing the edits of someone who didn't share his opinion? Can we really say that he is "another important contributor"? Just think of it. -- Andrés Djordjalian (talk) 17:19, 18 September 2013 (UTC)  I misunderstood what Kahastok meant, please read below. -- Andrés Djordjalian (talk) 02:11, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * First point of fact is simply not true. I was quoting a reliable source, which says that there was effectively an eighth clause.  That, while the clause may not exist in black and white, it was understood as existing by the parties.


 * The rest is little more than a personal attack and I see little benefit in responding to it further. Kahastok talk 17:31, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * a clause in a treaty is a written thing. You're even using the item numbering used by that author as if it were something pertinent to the treaty. What the author you cite actually does is interpret the treaty, and he does so in a singular way. If you wanted to mention this interpretation by an author, you should have spoken of a secondary source instead of affirming 'that there was effectively an eighth clause to the Arana-Southern treaty: "Inglaterra se quedaba con las Malvinas"'. That means something completely different and the difference is crucial. WP:COMPETENCE requires entering a personal level, sorry about that, but after months of senseless diatribe it is about time to raise this issue. -- Andrés Djordjalian (talk) 20:17, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * And more personal attacks. Need I point out that you are quoting me out of context?  Here is the full sentence:


 * "I find it ignores sources that are inconvenient to the Argentine POV - including Argentine sources that have been raised on talk in the past that say (for example) that there was effectively an eighth clause to the Arana-Southern treaty: 'Inglaterra se quedaba con las Malvinas'."


 * It is clear from the quote that I was citing a source. It is clear from the quote (and particularly the word "effectively") that the source was not claiming that the quote was written into the treaty.  That said, the source I have in front of me - an Argentine source (Pereyra) - does actually put exactly those words as the eight clause of the Arana-Southern treaty, with nothing to distinguish it from the others but the bracketed words at the front "no escrita" ("unwritten").  The source I was referring to when I wrote the text above cited Pereyra and noted that the point Pereyra was making was accurate.


 * When it comes down to it, just as in the RFC at Talk:History of the Falkland Islands, you don't get to discard evidence just because you don't like it, and the ability to cite reliable sources accurately is not a sign of incompetence. Kahastok talk 20:49, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * , Pereyra uses the Spanish word bases (translates as bases or foundations I guess), which unlike clauses does not imply writing. However, I see your point with the usage of effectively and I understand that your original comment doesn't demonstrate that you thought this "clause" was in the treaty. I exaggerated my previous criticism and I apologize. What I meant before is that you should have written that an author (i.e., secondary source) said that Inglaterra blah blah, not that the treaty said that, as I was interpreting from your words. It may be due to my limited English but I still think that there are clearer ways than "there was effectively an eighth clause" to express that. More so considering that I did mention that interpretation in the review that you were lambasting due to this hypothetical omission.


 * Regarding your last comment, please think of this example. You present Pereyra as reliable (actually you wrote that "reliable sources" said that, although it is only him as far as we know). (I made a mistake, please see my next comment. Kahastok mention of an "eighth clause" is taken from Pereyra but he extracts the citation through Pepper & Pascoe. It's them who he considers reliable. They aren't, but that's a different story. -- Andrés Djordjalian (talk)) Pereyra, who was not Argentinean but Mexican, was a nationalistic politician and a controversial revisionist. It is not just me saying, he was an influential figure, mentioned in literature. I don't know if you are familiar with Latin-American revisionism, but I am quite sure that you don't want to be seen as someone who calls their work reliable, where every single word is god-spoken truth. Thankfully we are not sharing this conversation with a certain editor that MarshalN20 knows, whose nick begins with L. :)


 * Just as in the previous conversation you refer, you are cherry picking a singular statement from a dubious source ( probably indirectly through P&P, who present this whitewashed citation) and then exaggerating it (this time, at least by transforming Pereyra into " reliable sources"). As I told you before, this is not how one seeks accuracy. Even the best sources contain subjective interpretations, ambiguous statements and factual errors occasionally. A comprehensive process is necessary, where many sources are read critically and compared. Particularly if we are using controversial, politically-laden material. Anyone who has properly delved into published history with a cold head realizes this. I could analyze Pereyra and this particular issue in length, but I'm afraid that, once again, nobody will seriously read that much and you and some other editors will obfuscate the material with lectures to me on how I'm "discarding evidence" because "I don't like it". Even though I was wrong about believing that you thought the treaty included an "eighth" clause, I honestly don't think that those kinds of remarks constitute competent participation in constructive discussion. -- Andrés Djordjalian (talk) 23:28, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I later realized that, according to your comment, the reliable source is not Pereyra but Pepper and Pascoe, which presents the Mexican as simply a "diplomat and historian" and borrows his statement. Of course I disagree with calling P&P reliable. I gave you hints on this in the past and you ignored them. As you're now ignoring that I did mention Pereyra, though he's hardly worthy of a mention, but still you keep lecturing me for supposedly having omitted that "evidence". The quid of my comment remains, but I'm ammending it. -- Andrés Djordjalian (talk) 02:11, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. I don't like edit-warring, particularly when it is ideologically-motivated, but WCM was a productive community member. The one thing I would note is that the articles which formed the subject of previous edit-wars (e.g., Self-determination) have been very quiet since WCM and Gaba were banned from editing Falkland islands-related topics, and that perhaps this quiet should be respected and previously discussed issues need not be re-opened - if you look at what was being argued about, it was normally a fairly minor issue of word-choice anyway. FOARP (talk) 09:52, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Strong Oppose. I'm sorry to have to vote this way but WCM left me no other choice. His request for lifting the topic ban is based entirely on me having the absolute fault on everything, he takes no responsibility whatsoever for what happened. By supporting the topic ban lift as it is WP is sending the following message:
 * 1) You don't have to work hard and show good faith to have a ban lifted. Just announce your "retirement" (even if it is the third time you do so), lay low for a while and then WP:CANVASS as many old friends as you can to vote yes on your proposal, making sure to leave out every editor who could possibly raise a concern, including the one your whole request is based on, as Wee did, which in itself is already a serious offense for an established editor. Even for a brand new editor the "You must notify any user who is the subject of a discussion. You may use  to do so." notice on the top of the page would be pretty hard to miss.
 * 2) You don't even have to follow the terms of the topic ban. As has been pointed out here by The Bushranger in this thread and here by Lukeno, WCM violated the terms of his topic ban just yesterday. As pointed out by me, that was his third violation:
 * I do take responsibility for my share of the blame and I have been making a real effort to have the topic ban lifted at some point. In my contribution history you'll see that since the topic ban I started editing at least half a dozen new articles, as instructed, to show that I am genuinely interested in contributing to WP. In Wee's history you'll see nothing.
 * I would understand (and even give) support if this was his first offense. It is not. Leaving aside the topic ban on Gibraltar related articles imposed on Wee a couple of years ago, I am not by far the only editor he's had trouble with: . How many second chances will an editor be given before he truly admits to have at least some of the guilt and agrees to modify at least a little bit his problematic behaviour?
 * To make myself absolutely clear: if this request was based on actual merit instead of the other editor (me in this case) being the one to blame for everything, I would vote Support. As it is, I can not. Regards. Gaba  <sup style="color:green;">(talk)  12:55, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * And now Wee is asking (off Wiki of course) for me to be blocked. Yet again. But surely I'm the one who's out to get him. Stricken as per James' comment. Note that, as Wee keeps complaining about me not leaving him alone, this request on ANI plus that message shows that the exact opposite is true . Gaba  <sup style="color:green;">(talk)  14:34, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The above message links to talk page content referring to an email that Wee Curry Monster sent me. I don't know how Gaba p thinks that he knows the content of the email, but I can assure him that he is mistaken. Wee Curry Monster's email does not ask for Gaba p to be blocked. My talk page post refers to the question of a possible block, because that is what I, not Wee Curry Monster, suggested nearly a year and a half ago, when I last had dealings with the issue, not because WCM is asking for it now. It would be as well not to jump to conclusions about the contents of communication that you have not seen. JamesBWatson (talk) 18:03, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I will ask James to comment here but my private comments to him by email did not ask for a block. My email was of a more personal nature, hence email.  I do things openly.
 * Any editor who has edited in a controversial area will attract a fair share of abuse, I am no exception.  Once again User:Gaba p attempts to abuse this as evidence I am the editor who is the problem.  Its yet another example of abusing diffs to give an appearance of misconduct where none exists.  This is one of the smokescreen tactics he has used for a long time.
 * refers to and his block for personal attacks and harasment .  Occupy Marines was one of a whole series of Occupy articles, most on non-notable subjects where wikipedia was being used for self-promotion of various groups.  The encyclopedia content was preserved and moved to Occupy movement in the United States.  Many content editors will recall that these was a problem for a while, where any attempt to bring Occupy articles into line with wikipedia norms led to some quite vicious personal abuse.
 * Is simply irrelevant, the editor misunderstood I remark I made to User:MarshalN20 (an editor I respect immensely) but what is interesting from that remark is his reference to the fact that I am being discussed off-wiki by a number of editors.
 * Please check the contribution history, this was an editor actively disruptively recreating deleted material and making some fairly unpleasant uncomments about User:Nick-D see . Wee Curry Monster talk 15:25, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The discussion referred to is here Talk:Falklands War/Archive 12. Mabuska was aggressive but I did keep my cool and remained civil.  Are my comments problematic?
 * Do I need to continue? Because if investigated with an unjaundiced eye, you'll find I was quite reasonable, remained civil and followed WP:DR.  I was once topic banned from editing on Gibraltar, can anyone point to me whining about it?  The difference is this stemmed from a period in which I was suffering from problems related to PTSD.  I was uncivil at the time, I accepted my edits were problematic for a time but the behaviour that led to the topic ban has not been repeated.  Again I repeat, this is another example of User:Gaba p abusing diffs to present a picture that is misleading.  Wee Curry Monster talk 15:25, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No Wee, what that is is a perfect example of you assigning the blame to others all of the time. Another good example of that is you now asking for an interaction ban with Langus and Andrés accusing them of producing "false allegations" (?).
 * If you had only followed the advice given to us (as I did) and contributed to other articles in WP like any regular editor would, you'd now have something to show for in this request instead of having to resort to once again attack me (and every other editor who dares disagree with you, like Michael, Langus and Andrés). This shows you have no intention whatsoever of modifying your conduct in the least and that my friend is truly a shame. Regards. Gaba  <sup style="color:green;">(talk)  16:01, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. Frankly, Gaba, this isn't/shouldn't be about you. This is about Wee. If you want my opinion, I'm for you being unblocked as well, but only if both you and Wee commit to an end to the arguments or an interaction ban is in place. This thread is turning into an example of why some people supported the ban from editing FI-related articles in the first place. FOARP (talk) 18:20, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Quite right, FOARP. This was supposed to about a proposal to remove Wee Curry Monster's topic ban. Gaba p has been trying to make it about his disliking of everything to do with Wee Curry Monster. Wee Curry Monster says that Gaba p has been harassing him. I looked, and failed to see evidence that this had been happening recently, but Gaba p has now very conveniently provided evidence here, in this discussion. Way back in April 2012, I warned Gaba p that if he continued with his "aggressive and confrontational" approach to other editors, he would be likely to "be blocked ... and stay blocked". Really, if I see a little more of this then I will be likely to decide that the time has come for that to happen. (Note that I say this purely on the basis of what I myself have seen, not because anyone has asked me to block Gaba p.) JamesBWatson (talk) 20:28, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * JamesBWatson that's an incredibly unfair thing to say. Did you read the request Wee posted? It's based entirely on trashing me all over the place . Am I not allowed to defend myself? How am I the "aggressive and confrontational" one after all of the accusations he made above? Did you read the part where I said that if this request would have been based on actual merit instead of assigning all the blame to me I could have even considered supporting it? Did you read the part where I said that had he simply not mentioned my name I wouldn't have found out about this and thus not commented? Have you nothing to say about his three violations of his topic ban, his canvassing on this very thread, his refusal to post the appropriate and mandated ANI notice on my talk page, his request based 100% on attacks directed at me...? Seriously, this makes it very hard to assume you are acting in good faith. It looks as if I rubbed you the wrong way at some point and now you are just waiting for an excuse to block me, no matter what. If this was "supposed to about a proposal to remove Wee Curry Monster's topic ban" then how come you say nothing about the fact that he resorted exclusively to throw mud at me to accomplish that? Would you have been so lenient if it was me posting a similar request? Am I wrong to assume you would have considered that "aggressive and confrontational"?
 * I was not the one who made this about me. In case you haven't noticed Wee made it about me from the very beginning. Gaba  <sup style="color:green;">(talk)  23:44, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The fact that that post is your defence against a charge of being "aggressive and confrontational" speaks volumes. JamesBWatson (talk) 07:57, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Gaba, twice in this thread you have made veiled accusations of canvassing or "friends" joining in this debate. Remember this is where we came in when you accused me of being canvassed when I had no previous interaction with either you or Wee before in an ancient FI dispute thread? There you had the grace to aplogise voluntarily when the reality was clear to you. For the record I can state that since WCMs ban I have had no interaction whatsover, and zero communication to this moment. I wish you would stop doing that. I thread stalk, and have tried to work with you all. The subject and talks interested me since I have been on WP. It just doesnt help the atmosphere. Ok. Cheers Irondome (talk) 00:04, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Irondome from our past interactions I know you are an editor who acts in good faith and I always thanked you for interceding between me and Wee when things started to get out of hands. After Wee called you in back then, he admitted that he had made a mistake and was actually trying to get an admin of a similar user name to close an RfC. He was not trying to canvass you but actually an admin and if I apologized to anybody it must have been you who entered a very heated discussion the wrong way; which was not your fault at all.
 * When I refer to canvassing I do not mean you Irondome, I'm referring to this: Not even Wee could deny that he hand-picked those editors he thought would intercede in his favor. You know what makes it 100% certain that this is canvassing? The fact that he did not leave a notice to me, something he is required to do and something he of course already knows. This was done deliberately and I make a point of this because it amazes me how no admin here thinks that this, along with the violation of the topic ban and his request composed in its entirety of attacks towards me and nothing else, is something to be concerned about or even mentioned. Had it been me who did even one of those things, you can be absolutely sure that I would be blocked by now.  Gaba  <sup style="color:green;">(talk)  04:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Oppose - I find WeeCurryMonster's topic-ban highly justified in my experience with this editor. Their claim about me: "Mabuska was aggressive but I did keep my cool and remained civil. Are my comments problematic?" is false and a look at that discussion, related edits, and previous discussions/acts will show this editor is prone to letting their own POV affect certain articles enforcing their personal favoured wording whilst convoluting other editors comments to denigrate that editors arguments. I do not like being dragged into discussions such as this where situations are twisted to imply a different situation for that users own benefit. Mabuska (talk) 22:40, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If WCM was to have a mentor then maybe they could have their topic-ban lifted, however I'd suggest the same for Gaba as WCM's behaviour incites antagonism with editors they disagree with - why else have they been topic-banned at least twice? Gibraltar and now Falkland Islands - both British dependencies with degrees of controversy. In fact maybe being topic-banned from controversial British dependencies may be a better idea... Mabuska (talk) 22:47, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This seems to be a comment on your opinions on Wee, not on his subject-ban. Like or dislike of an editor shouldn't come into it. FOARP (talk) 06:27, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Please don't make assumptions about whether or not I like or dislike an editor. I have neither feelings for WCM. My opinions above relate to my opposition for them to have their topic-ban lifted. Mabuska (talk) 21:39, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Anyways any admins will make up their own mind on how they feel about this situation from what they see above, and whilst we may all throw around our supports or opposes in regards to WCM's request, it in all eventuality accounts for diddly-squat as it is up to the admins.Mabuska (talk) 21:46, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Amendment to my request
May I add the following:


 * If Nick-D wishes to mentor I will gladly accept.


 * If you want to impose a 1RR limitation I will accept, it will quickly become apparent that I do not edit war but as I note above was placed in an impossible position of being asked to gain a consensus with an editor who was uncivil and edit warred to impose their views.


 * I request for the fourth time, an interaction ban. I note that one way bans are frowned upon so will accept a two way ban; I have no need to comment on editors again.


 * I request that there is consideration to extending the interaction ban to User:Andrés Djordjalian and User:Langus-TxT. I would just like to edit in peace without having to defend myself against their false allegations.  Wee Curry Monster talk 15:43, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd be pleased to act as WCM's mentor, though I think that sticking to 1RR regardless of whether its mandated as part of this discussion or not would be highly beneficial. In regards to the above discussion, it is a bit concerning that the dispute over the content of these articles has spilled over here. Nick-D (talk) 23:04, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There is way too much linking to ancient and angry out of context fights. Ban all linking from now on. It just makes old crap fester anew. No more linking to prove points by any party. Not just Wee and Gaba. Anyone. Irondome (talk) 00:29, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I note that a significant problem that caused the original ban was the wall of text often created on the talk page, something which a 1RR restriction would not stop. If you were willing to support a "one reply per user per topic (unless permission is given by your mentor)" on related talk pages then I would give serious consideration to this request.  Obviously such a restriction is a bit ill defined, and would be need to be treated with some common sense, but I can't think of a better way to implement it.
 * Regardless of the outcome of the result of this request I think an interaction ban between WCM and Gaba_p is a very good idea. As to the other users mentioned personally I don't think such an interaction ban would, at this stage, be necessary.  If the topic ban is lifted I would like to see how things go before we enacted such an interaction ban.
 * Finally I note that most of the contributors to this discussion have been involved with the articles in question and that once again we have a wall of text that is probably deterring comments.  This is starting to get disruptive.  Therefore I suggest that if we have a concrete un-ban proposal a new section be started with that proposal and that it be left to neural users to comment.  I would consider any wall of text comments, or multiple replies, by users involved with these articles to be disruptive and possibly worthy of a block.  This may be somewhat unusual but neutral editors need to be able to have a conversation about this issue without having to wade through walls of text.  Dpmuk (talk) 05:48, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In answer to Dpmuk, I will gladly limit my replies but I would request that you review the talk pages and simply note for now who is largely responsible for the walls of text; I agree they're unhelpful and personally believe the intention is to deter outside comment. Wee Curry Monster talk 14:17, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * See below, I understand now what you're driving at. Wee Curry Monster talk 20:56, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support amended proposals 1,2 and 3, oppose 4. (One of the ironies of Wiki-conflict is not only does an editor not have to defend themselves against false allegations, it's often better not to.) NE Ent 10:34, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. There are many fanatics on Wiki who reply to editing that does not entirely agree with their POV with vitriol. There is simply no point in responding to such rhetoric since it simply serves to amplify it and crowd out meaningful discussion. Wee would be well-advised not to bother responding to personal attacks if he thinks he is being attacked. FOARP (talk) 11:58, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Advice duly noted. However, may I ask a question.  At WP:ANI a large number of false allegations were raised, with diffs used misleadingly to give credence.  My experience is that the diffs aren't examined in detail and the allegations taken seriously;  how do you respond then?  Wee Curry Monster talk 14:17, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * And how's the strategy of engaging in long arguments with your detractors been working out for you lately? FOARP (talk) 16:42, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Believe me the point has now been truly taken on board, I've not engaged in long boring arguments here as much as I might have in the past. Moreover, I have come to the realisation that at least one of the editors who appeared to take those allegations seriously on the basis of those false diffs was a wind up merchant and a troll.  Thank you for your comment, you could say it has just provoked a Damascus moment in me.  You are welcome to WP:TROUT me anytime I forget such an important lesson. Wee Curry Monster talk 20:54, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose for multiple reasons. One: the user claims to be retired, and as such, any restrictions should be irrelevant to them. Two: their participation in the latest ANI was almost certainly a topic ban violation (particularly as they explicitly mentioned the Falkland Islands in one of their posts) and should've resulted in a block. Three: the abusive manner in which they attacked several editors in that thread (a long time after a notification had been placed on their talkpage as well) is indicative that their presence in this topic area is not helpful. Four: The abusive manner in which some of WCM's strongest proponents posting here have acted is actually detrimental to the case: I have no idea what Muggins thought they were doing, and I've already voiced my issues with Kahastok. Five: it hasn't yet been six months, and WCM is yet to demonstrate that they will not be a problem in this area again; regardless of whether they were right or not. Six: WP:CANVASSing actions by WCM. For what it's worth, I also support a two-way interaction ban between Gaba p and WCM. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 15:46, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that Wee is nowhere near the title of congeniality, and that some of the people in favor of his topic ban removal are also not paragons of virtue. However, I ask only where the limit between deterrence and punishment stands in this case? Wee has accepted Nick's mentorship and 1RR on Falklands topics. I trust this is a step in the right direction, because Nick (a remarkable administrator and content contributor) surely understands the responsibility he is placing upon himself, and Wee is most certainly aware that this is pretty much a last chance to prove his trustworthiness. Moreover, the two-way interaction ban is (as most can all agree) another huge leap into a positive direction. Will waiting the full six months really make a difference or produce better results than the ones currently in play? I recommend to let Wee have his chance and, ultimately above all, trust Nick.-- MarshalN20 | <font color="Olive">T <font color="Silver">al <font color="Olive">k 06:43, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Very well said, and showing the positive way forward in my opinion. I fully agree. Apcbg (talk) 09:48, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If you read my comment, you'll see that the issue of six months is only one of many concerns I have. Don't forget, this user is still claiming to be retired, and their retirement was under a cloud in the first place. And they violated their topic ban very recently - and did so deliberately. Why should we willfully reward violations of valid enforcements? Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 09:51, 22 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support I have been following the contributions of User:Andrés Djordjalian after commenting on his RFC at Talk:History of the Falkland Islands. I was left with concerns about his editing and I am seeing similar behaviour here.  Reading this discussion, I see evidence supporting User:Wee Curry Monster's claims of cyberbullying.
 * There are a number of postive comments about his being a prolific contributor and given his agreement to a mentor, 1RR restriction and limiting talk page comments I see no reason not to lift the topic ban. BedsBookworm (talk) 11:49, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. From what I remember seeing the last time I looked, his editing in the Falklands area was about as tendentious as that of his opponents and had an equal share in poisoning the atmosphere there. The fact that he still can't recognize anything wrong with his editing is not a good sign. Somebody above said that the area has gone a lot more quiet since he and some of the others on the other side were topic-banned. That means the topic area is better off without them for the time being. I see no reason to unilaterally lift the topic ban on him but not on the editors on the other side of the issue. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:52, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That was me who said that the area has generally got quieter. It's true.  But it would have been just as quiet with Curry Monster not topic banned.  There is no preventative reason for Curry Monster to remain topic banned.  The topic area is not better off without him, because it also means that we do not have his knowledge and expertise, which is sorely missed while we go through an agreed process of attaining consensus for a large-scale change in particular to Falkland Islands.  Frankly, if you topic banned every editor on Wikipedia from the Falklands it would be much quieter still. Kahastok talk 15:08, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

non-arbitrary break

 * Question Is WCM banned from editing at the moment? He has been editing  Munro | as can be seen from this edit history. It certainly doesn't look good if he has been defying this ban while asking for it to be lifted. Michael Glass (talk) 09:53, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * He is not. NE Ent 10:07, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It is a topic ban from everything related to the Falkland Islands; Munro is not covered by that topic ban. - David Biddulph (talk) 10:11, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Oppose - As long as WCM singles me out for being disruptive, I cannot support the lifting of his topic-related ban. For the record, one of the key features of this so-called disruption has been WCM's unwavering support of the page WP:FALKLANDSUNITS - a page that is currently under heavy scrutiny. Martinvl (talk) 22:06, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * So, your oppose is entirely retaliatory? Kahastok talk 14:56, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, his oppose highlights the fact that WCM cannot edit in this topic area without being combative. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 17:29, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Oppose - I have noted the revised proposal for supervision of WCM. However, this | rant, just six days ago, (17 September 2013), is evidence that he has not changed. The discussion above pointed out that he can edit elsewhere on Wikipedia. That is enough for now, providing that he removes the misleading notice about | not being active on Wikipedia from his talk page. Michael Glass (talk) 00:04, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Michael, I do not think you realize it but you have already voted once to Oppose above (Sept. 17th). Since this is just a break and not a new vote, you need to strike through one of your votes.  Thanks. Mugginsx (talk) 12:47, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Clarity is needed to be honest as Michael Glass' vote could either be considered a duplicate of that given for the initial topic-ban removal request, or an oppose for WCM's amendment which is technically an amended request that seeks a response. I believe it is an oppose for WCM's amendment seeing as the initial request conversation has ended and been superceded by the amendment on that followed and the non-arbitrary break which I see as concurrent with the amended request - however it is up to the admins to make the final decision regardless of votes by ordinary editors. In regards to his rant, I can understand WCM losing patience and posting such a rant with such a section title, as we have all come across situations of what we'd call lameness that never gets tackled - however it wasn't the best way to do it. Mabuska (talk) 22:33, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Strong Oppose for the time being

If WCM had shown evidence of an ability to edit elsewhere without the cloud of combative atmosphere (whoever causes it) that led to the original topic ban, and showed some sort of understanding of the role he plays in it, I might be more willing to support. However, sadly I see nothing in WCM's original statement or his amended request like this. Instead he is essentially claiming that he is a victim and that everyone else was at fault. Additionally, rather than editing elsewhere since the ban, WCM retired in a huff and has pretty much only returned to editing to make this request. I would prefer to see him serve a topic ban whilst editing elsewhere to prove that he can edit without controversy rather than just stopping altogether. If he can demonstrate this and some sort of understanding of the original issues that led to the topic ban, then in a few months time I might be tempted to support Amendments 1 and 2. Ranger Steve  Talk  13:58, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Eurofighter Typhoon
I have protected Eurofighter Typhoon as users continue to edit war despite ongoing discussion on the talk page Talk:Eurofighter Typhoon and at DRN Dispute resolution noticeboard. I had commented on the discussion in the early stages (last on 28 August) but have not been involved since. Just like a sanity check that the protection was OK, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 19:09, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks like a good idea but you of course protected the WP:WRONG version. :-)  19:36, 24 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wee Curry Monster (talk • contribs)


 * Someone mind adding a protection template? — PublicAmpers <font color="FF1493">&#38; (main account • talk • block) 18:16, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Inappropriate redirects
A slightly complicated redirect issue has arisen regarding List of Roman deities. A user moved the page, via redirect, to List of Roman mythological figures some months back just over a year ago, without prior discussion; and likewise the article's talk-page. A helpful admin moved the article back - List of Roman mythological figures now redirects to List of Roman deities - but didn't do the same for the article talk-page. Unfortunately, the redirects are inappropriate. Neither subject is interchangeable, and neither one is a subset of the other. The Roman deities list doesn't deal with "mythological figures" as such - some Roman deities have a mythology, others have none whatever, and any distinctively "Roman" mythology concerns Rome's early proto-history, for the most part - founding legends, origins, relationship with the gods etc. Can someone help out here, by somehow completely removing those redirects? Haploidavey (talk) 21:04, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I notice Template:List of mythological figures by region is used by a number of articles, and links to List of Roman mythological figures. Although List of Roman deities may not be the best target for that redirect, it's surely better than a dead-end red link, no? 28bytes (talk) 21:58, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * In this instance, I have to disagree. A template that includes local or regional deities that have no myths attached should not define those figures as mythological. A red-link indicates that there's an article to be written. A blue-link, via redirect or otherwise, suggests that it's already written - which in this case just ain't so. The terms are simply not interchangeable. Haploidavey (talk) 22:17, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm surprised that there would be deities with no myths about them... how would anyone know about them? Regardless, if you think the redirect is inappropriate, the best options would be either an RFD discussion or to convert the redirect into a stub. 28bytes (talk) 22:22, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Indeed, many obscure deities have no mythology whatsoever. Their names and cults - and usually their functions - are known only through ancient images, calendars, inscriptions and speculative literature. This is so for much of ancient Roman religion; thus the rather long and uninformative alphabetical sub-list at List of Roman deities. Thank you for the advice; stubbing might be a good thing. Haploidavey (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:36, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The template was one editor's project and that editor's article moves of lists of deities to lists of mythological figures caused some fuss at the time. In addition to the lack of myths for some deities that comes up with Roman paganism, there are non-divine mythological figures in many pagan religions. I have just removed Norse from the template for that reason. I'm tempted to nominate it for deletion. Yngvadottir (talk) 00:28, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I didn't notice who'd authored the template - whose deletion I'd support, by the way - but I was involved in that fuss. The situation at the List of Roman deities is part of its aftermath. Messy. Haploidavey (talk) 01:12, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

(non-admin observation) As 28bytes says, this would get more of a response at WP:RfD and/or WP:TfD, to be completely honest. Ansh666 18:35, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Bonkers the Clown
When I google "Barack Magic Nigga Obama", the second result is User:Bonkers The Clown. Is that appropriate for a user page? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:58, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Highly doubt it. I did see the reference on his page, it's down at  "Favorite people".  Might need to be changed to a more appropriate reference, per BLP. <font style="color:blue;background:white"> KoshVorlon .<font style="color:white;background:blue;"> We are all Kosh ... 16:07, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I have notified Bonkers about this. I suppose a simple solution would be to add the NOINDEX magic tag (WP:NOINDEX)? Although as KoshVorlon points out this may be something we'd want to remove for BLP reasons. OSborn arfcontribs. 16:11, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've NOINDEXed it pending discussion. Monty  <sub style="color:#A3BFBF;">845  16:13, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It should be removed. No need to use that term except if it were the title of a notable work of fiction or scholarship (i.e. something chosen by others). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:14, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

This user seems to have an unhealthy obsesion with the N-word, see User talk:Bonkers The Clown and the article(s) related to that discussion, as well as talk page posts such as this and this. This editor seems more and more to be nothing more than a sophisticated troll. GiantSnowman 16:16, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Er, yeah - I couldn't help but notice that too... I usually balk at that sub bridge denizen term when applied to an editor supposedly in good standing, but recent "events" lead me to believe it's time to explain to "Bonkers", unambiguously, that he needs to stop doing that. Kind of right now... Begoon &thinsp; talk  16:26, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Boldly removed it. Per our userpage guideline, very divisive or offensive material not related to encyclopedia editing should not be included in the user namespace. And if that is debatable, it certainly falls under WP:BLP, as calling someone a "magic nigga" is contentious and inappropriate. If this editor wants to stick around, he has to learn where and where not to use this word. In context is one thing, calling a notable individual on their user page it falls short of that by a mile. Regards, — Moe   Epsilon  16:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah - kudos for doing what none of us did, and removing it instead of talking about it. Endorse that move, and thanks. Begoon &thinsp; talk  17:39, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

It should be noted that the content in question predates Bonkers's self-imposed n-word moratorium. If it didn't I'd be pushing for the race-issues topic ban that Maunus suggested at Articles for deletion/Niggers in the White House. This isn't the first time this has been an issue either... IIRC, once upon a time Bonkers had a swastika in his signature. But I'd like to AGF and believe that he simply forgot about his use of the word on his userpage when he agreed to the moratorium. — PublicAmpers <font color="FF1493">&#38; (main account • talk • block) 17:56, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Since his last two article-space edits were this and this, both earlier today, I don't think he got the memo about any "moratorium". Mogism (talk) 18:20, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The edit summaries are somewhat troubling, if only because he explicitly and categorically said he wouldn't use that word any more, and it would have been fairly easy to avoid in that context. The edits themselves, however, are entirely gnomish, and in fairness he never said he wouldn't edit n-word-related articles. If he goes back to tossing it around in conversation with other users, don't get me wrong, I'll be the first to jump on the sanctioning bandwagon, but I don't see this as rising to that level. — PublicAmpers <font color="FF1493">&#38; (main account • talk • block) 18:29, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Those edit summaries are perfect examples of his trolling. I suggest a topic ban for Bonkers from using the word "nigger" or similar in any context whatsoever. GiantSnowman 19:59, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support that. Amazing that someone can see them, in context of everything else, as just "somewhat troubling". We need to be clear that this is not acceptable, and, despite my qualms about the term, I'm with GS here - it's trolling. If it's not, it's incompetence to edit in this language. Whichever, it needs to stop, now. Begoon &thinsp; talk  20:10, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support topic ban - and make it entirely clear to Bonkers that any further trolling behaviour will result in an indefinite block. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:23, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * If we're gonna go the topic-ban route, personally I'd want something a bit broader and a bit more nuanced. Something like is indefinitely prohibited from using any phrases or imagery that can reasonably be construed as racially insensitive, in any context whatsoever, except for in the course of contributing to the main namespace, and then if and only if it is unambiguously relevant and appropriate (e.g., an image of a Nazi uniform in an article on a Nazi military unit). In more complex cases, any uninvolved administrator may impose any sanctions necessary on Bonkers The Clown within the topic area of racially sensitive matters (broadly construed), up to and including a ban from the area as a whole (though only as a last resort). Personally, I think it would be better to wait a little bit longer and apply a broad sanction (if necessary) than to apply a narrow sanction right now. —  PublicAmpers <font color="FF1493">&#38; (main account • talk • block) 20:36, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "Racially insensitive" is a useless term since different cultures and different individuals see different things as insensitive with a long list of "insensitive" things that may not be fully known to any given individual, a list that is ever-growing without some sort of regular update to all the hapless citizenry who might find themselves faced with someone who is clued in on all the recent changes to the Guide to Living a Politically Correct Lifestyle Unoffensive to All Recognized Victim Groups TM .- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 20:54, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * A fair point. You ever read Fahrenheit 451?  Anyways, I was serious when I said "something like" that, though; that was just a rough draft.  If we were to implement such a sanction, we could easily modify it to specify which racial groups we're talking about, or take any number of other approaches. —  PublicAmpers <font color="FF1493">&#38; (main account • talk • block) 21:11, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone has made an actual case for any restriction. People are just reacting like "Shit! Someone said nigger! Get that ni- . . . uhhh . . . guy!"-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 21:22, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Those edit summaries are poking at it a bit, but if someone looking for an article with the word "nigger" in it is actually shocked that someone used the word "nigger" when editing the article then that person needs to get a clue. His user page preceded all this hubub so it isn't really sufficient. Bonkers likes him some abrasive humor and that, obviously, is abrasive to some people. Unless someone can point to an egregious action on his part since his pledge, then I think this type of action is unnecessary.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 20:43, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. Without Pink Ampersand's exception. I don't want this person touching anything to do with race or nazism, period. When he was called out on having a swastika in his signature he said, "Heck, why is everyone so fussed up over swastikas? They embody peace, not Holocaust or anything-Nazi." He claims to be all naive about wearing a swastika while greeting newbies here and calling people niggers. His excuse is he's Singaporean so doesn't understand these weird Western ways (but when invited to a meet-up in Singapore, declined). I've met lots of Singaporeans - lots of people from all over the world - with not a tenth of his English skills, and they all know you don't call people niggers and the Swastika is offensive to Westerners (at the very least). In fact, he says in the above link he knew the swastika would upset people. He's trolling in the most offensive way possible and should be shown the door. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 20:47, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * To be clear, are you supporting GS's proposal, my suggestion (minus the mainspace exemption), or a new proposal of your own? Because GS's proposal only actually prohibits him from saying the N-word "or similar"; it sounds like you're talking about something broader than that. —  PublicAmpers <font color="FF1493">&#38; (main account • talk • block) 21:03, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In descending order of preference: a permanent site ban; if not that then a permanent ban on discussing or editing anything race-related, broadly construed; if not that then a permanent ban on using the word "nigger" or any racial epithet in any space here; if not that, this place is in worse shape than I thought. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:14, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Why was Anthonyhcole Googling "Barack Magic Nigga Obama"? HiLo48 (talk) 20:51, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Because I saw it on the user page. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 20:52, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - Anything Bonkers seems to edit includes the word nigger which isn't very healthy, Plus anyone with common sense would know the swastika's offensive, - .... IMO He's trolling... - Davey  2010  Talk  21:16, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support GS's proposal, although I would reword it to "use of any word, phrase or image which could reasonably be expected to cause offence". There are 3 million (or thereabouts) articles on Wikipedia, and I'm sure avoiding the tiny subset in which it's actually necessary to use racial slurs would cause no hardship. I concur that this looks like trolling, since it's beyond coincidence that he would just happen to come across Niggers in the White House, Nigger (2002 book) and No Niggers, No Jews, No Dogs. I agree with Anthonyhcole above that his claim not to understand why this is causing offence isn't plausible. Singapore is an English-speaking country with high standards of education (and one in which you can barely walk half a mile without finding some memorial or other to its occupation in WW2), and it's not plausible that any Singaporean over the age of 10 wouldn't know that the word "nigger" and the swastika are offensive. Mogism (talk) 21:18, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You do realize that he created two of the three articles you just mentioned, right? Of course you don't, as that would require a bit of research on your part. Joefromrandb (talk) 11:27, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's okay. I have learnt that the typical American is fat and lazy. Not my words, don't chastise me for that. ☯ Bonkers The Clown  \(^_^)/  Nonsensical Babble  ☯ 11:31, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose ban, but caution user. The edit summaries are pushing the boundaries, but they do actually describe the edit, and they were good edits. In the same way that Niggers in the White House is a good article (not in the technical sense, but it was featured on DYK, is likely to survive AfD, and has already produced a couple of spin-offs articles). I don't think we can fault Bonkers simply for editing pages that have the word "nigger" in them. I think the moratorium was self-imposed in good faith - Bonkers seemed to be saying he would refrain from using the word on talk pages. If all we are going on is the fact that he's been - like, writing articles, then I don't think that's enough for a topic ban. StAnselm (talk) 21:31, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm going on the fact that he added a swastika to his name, knowing it would upset people, and then addressed people at The Teahouse and The Reference Desk as well as user and article talk pages, and he called African Americans "niggers", and I don't believe for a second he didn't know what he was doing. If I'm wrong, and it was ignorance or insensitivity, then he displays a degree of ignorance and insensitivity on issues around race that disqualifies him from working in that area, per WP:COMPETENCE. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:56, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, I just Google'd that phrase and Bonkers is further down on the page. Interesting that #1 is Wikipediocracy which picked up the conversation from this noticeboard. Liz <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 22:17, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support topic ban Bonkers is trolling and playing the "cultural differences" card when called out on it. There is no cultural difference that makes overt racism like what was on his userpage ok. He knows what he is doing and he needs to stop. Now. Frankly, if there weren't already so much discussion of a topic ban here I would have just indef blocked him until he agreed to cut it out immediately and permanently. There is no place for racist trolling here. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:32, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support topic ban. Clearly lacking the degree of competence required to contribute in the area of race and ethnicity. Or trolling.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:50, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You know that this guy is almost certainly, right? He's clearly trolling, in the pure sense of the word: he's being intentionally provocative. Given the community's general inability to ignore trolling, the next best response here is a block. MastCell Talk 22:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've heard the name. The timing's a bit different. CoMBTC. But, whatever. He doesn't belong here. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:28, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Begrudgingly support topic ban. Though being from Singapore might explain his initial ignorance about the Nazi swastika and the n-word (I've met numerous Indonesians who put a swastika on their motorcycle, for instance, and in Indonesian "negro" is still the most commonly used term for a person of African descent), it fails to explain why Bonkers has avoided provoking people once he learned it was provocative and likely to get him blocked. He does some decent work outside race areas, so no need for a site ban. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:57, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Advocate total ban. At the moment this sophisticated former user troll is playing WP like a fiddle. Irondome (talk)
 * Support total ban. We've topic banned people before, and it was about as effective as wearing shorts in the snow. Someone who knowing uses a sign that could really offend people and uses words like that should be eliminated from this site. 173.58.95.171 (talk) 00:08, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose as absolutely fucking ridiculous. While Bonkers was absolutely disruptive during the early stages of the recent AfD, it's utterly absurd to call those two edits "trolling". The edits in question were not only to articles that involve that word, but both edits concern the word itself. It's not unreasonable, therefore, that the word would appear in his edit summaries. (Bonkers has also recently edited many topics unrelated to that word.) I'm not suggesting for one second we "suffer his malfeasance much longer", as John Cline perfectly put it. He should rightfully be on a very short leash. But to topic-ban based on those two edits is bullshit. Joefromrandb (talk) 00:57, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support either a topic ban or an outright user ban.  Gamaliel  ( talk ) 01:06, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment What exactly would this "topic ban" cover? I don't support outright bans on Editors that come out of the blue without even a warning notice.
 * Well, this thread would prevent any blueness, I suppose. I hope Bonkers is going to come by and explain a few things. Drmies (talk) 04:02, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * To be honest I'm more than happy for my original topic ban proposal to be extended as wide as deemeed necessary. GiantSnowman 08:14, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support topic ban. Absolutely no excuses whatsoever for using this sort of language. Regardless of any "trolling" intent or not, any usage of such language is so wildly inappropriate that I find it extraordinary that people are defending it at all! Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 09:05, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Statement by yours truly This is hillarious, a bunch of admins and whatnot debating over one word. That edit regarding "Magic Nigga" was made, what, over a year ago? (Reiterate: A year ago; before any of the "White House" nonsense) And that was in reference to a rather popular song perhaps all ya politically correct souls have never listened to before. Since the swastika was mentioned, let me tell you: To all the ignorant little souls out there, the swastika used to be a symbol of peace a long time ago. Enlightened men of the Buddha-faith carried it like a badge of honour, until a German/Austrian man with a moustache perverted its meaning. Add: More than a few million Buddhist/Hindu temples today still have the sign in its grounds. But no, no, I'm wrong, it's simply a Nazi sign, and I'm a Nazi blah blah. Woe is me. Oh, you aren't discussing about my non-nigger edits, are you? You just like to nitpick on my choice of vocabulary, eh? What me ignorant... ☯ Bonkers The Clown  \(^_^)/  Nonsensical Babble  ☯ 09:38, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Good ol' bunch o' people, made me realise that we really do need to conform to the politically correct society. It's no use going against them. I'll just wait till y'all middle-aged guys kick the bucket and we Gen Ys take over. You'll see change. ☯ Bonkers The Clown  \(^_^)/  Nonsensical Babble  ☯ 09:38, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In case I wasn't so clear, I just meant that I would not use "nigger" in talk pages. ☯ Bonkers The Clown  \(^_^)/  Nonsensical Babble  ☯ 09:38, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Incompetence to edit in this language? Pfft, yeah I'd suppose Greek suits me more. ☯ Bonkers The Clown  \(^_^)/  Nonsensical Babble  ☯ 09:44, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Bonkers, read the swastika article. Note the difference between the Nazi one and traditional Hindu one (and also note how often the traditional symbol is misunderstood as the Nazi symbol). Even if you mean well, there's not going to be much but drama coming from that. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:48, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The swastika in my old signature was never slanted. ☯ Bonkers The Clown  \(^_^)/  Nonsensical Babble  ☯ 09:58, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What is "The swastika in my old signature was never slanted" supposed to mean? This is the Nazi swastika. Note the distinct lack of slanting.94.196.155.7 (talk) 10:21, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Opened up the link. Bonkers had this swastika in his signature: 卐. There is no way to say that is a Nazi swastika or not. It's not red, it's not black on red, it's not tilted, etc. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:42, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per StAnselm. His use of the word nigger is discontenting, but most of his edits are good and a lot of the time he's using "nigger" in an acceptable sense. Give him a warning and be done with it. —  Richard  BB  09:41, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose, per Devil's Advocate and Joefromrandb. That BTC likes to be shocking is plain. But it is also plain that people here can't make the distinction between writing about racist slurs versus actually insulting people using racist slurs. The swastika-in-username thing is irrelevant since he doesn't have it anymore (AFAIK). When he will be actually acting racist, we can discuss it again. -- cyclopia <sup style="color:red;">speak! 09:42, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "Of course there is satire... The white presidential family and the niggers are heavily ridiculed in the poem. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 09:13, 16 September 2013 (UTC)" He's a racist, or a troll, or a racist troll. Or he is so ignorant and stupid regarding race and racism that he's not fit to edit articles on those topics. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:21, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh please. Have you seen the title of that article? The context is obvious. Look, I understand the way he throws the N-word around can make some people squirm, but it's just because of the reflex reaction to the word, not because of its actual usage. Again, he clearly wants to be controversial, and I'd rather he didn't (I understand, I've the same childish temptation sometimes -but I try to keep it out of here). But it doesn't deserve crying outrage. Give him rope. -- cyclopia <sup style="color:red;">speak! 15:11, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course I've seen the article. Is it OK to call African Americans niggers provided you do it on the talk page of an article that has "niggers" in the title? So, you think this person is worth keeping here, without any restrictions on his behaviour? Frankly, I'm not surprised. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:14, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Bonkers is a good editor, but lacks the maturity to deal with sensitive situations. I was inclined to oppose a topic ban, waiting for Bonkers to give a response, but having done so, I can see he has no understanding of the other person's point of view, is not taking anything seriously. and does not indicate that he won't use racial epithets again. I would strongly advise Bonkers to drop the rhetoric immediately otherwise he might find the only place he can write it is in unblock requests. I'll further remind him of what happened to his friend can easily happen to him too, and I do not particularly want Bonkers to dig his own grave.  Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   09:49, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Alright, I'll let the more mature 'pedians do their squabbling then. I'll keep quiet and watch what unfolds. Sorry man, I don't know if it's this place or my house, but something stinks. I have to go. ☯ Bonkers The Clown  \(^_^)/  Nonsensical Babble  ☯ 09:58, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support (12 month?) topic ban - the reason we give topic bans is to channel editors away from areas that they are likely to not benefit themselves or others. Per User:Ritchie333, verbatim. This is for the User's own benefit. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:56, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Addendum: I declare that I am not racist. Do I look malicious to you? I have many black friends. Period. You guys really don't appreciate thrills in life. ☯ Bonkers The Clown  \(^_^)/  Nonsensical Babble  ☯ 10:15, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, you don't look malicious to me; you look like a troll and every single one of your recent edits is just confirming that opinion. You should be indeffed, not just topic banned. Salvio Let's talk about it! 10:19, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Bonkers, not a single one of your posts here at AN has filled me with any confidence. Saying "I'm not racist, I have black friends" is the oldest trick in the book. The more you post, the more inclined I am to support an indef. GiantSnowman 10:22, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeffing him seems to be a gratuitous overreaction. —  Richard  BB  10:27, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I was not going to post more, but my hormone-fuelled pseudo-ire told me to do otherwise. The heavens will weep in agony and the earth will crumble to cookie dust if I really am indeffed. ☯ Bonkers The Clown  \(^_^)/  Nonsensical Babble  ☯ 10:29, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sure we'll cope. GiantSnowman 10:40, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the best piece of advice I can give you Bonkers is to 1) not restore what was on your userpage and 2) work on other areas of the encyclopedia where you are not using racial epithets productively for a while, to convince the community that you are here in good faith. If you don't, you're not looking at a very bright future here. Regards, — Moe   Epsilon  10:46, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I am not going to, anyways. Have you seen what I've been doing for the past two years or so? ☯ Bonkers The Clown  \(^_^)/  Nonsensical Babble  ☯ 10:48, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * So you want him to work where he is "not using racial epithets productively"? Is that some sort of reverse psychology? ;) -- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 15:48, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose I should have added some commas or something so you wouldn't jumble what I actually said up. Essentially, he needs to stop targeting topics and articles with the word "nigger" or any variant and work on something else for a while productively. If he has good intentions, this shouldn't be hard. Regards, — Moe   Epsilon  16:23, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. I'm inclined to oppose, because I don't see any evidence in Bonkers's edits of a racist or neo-Nazi agenda. He's just a bit of a jerk who likes to be provocative, and who evidently thinks that US-based PC pieties are rather absurd and insular. There are several active editors here (who shall remain nameless) who clearly have a pro-Nazi and racist agenda, but who have learned to play by the rules while adding material designed to "demonstrate" the validity of racial hierarchies and downplay Nazi atrocities. Bonker's just isn't one of them. He edits mainly in the area of pop culture. He's obviously fascinated by US racial stereotypes as part of that, and has created several competent articles on those topics. Unfortunately has a rather adolescent desire to provoke, which is pretty tiresome. But like a lot of kids who seek attention by acting up, he's best ignored. Paul B (talk) 12:19, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's appropriate for us to let ignorant, provocative jerks edit this encyclopedia at all - especially not one who and wears a swastika. Did you see what he and his friend User:Arctic Kangaroo did at AfC? I'm not sure this is a kid, actually. Have you met him Crisco? And if he is a kid, we're not daycare. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email)  13:06, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If you are asking Crisco, why is this inset under my comment? His preoccupations with Barbie-doll girls and naughty words are somewhat suggestive. He castigates "middle aged" editors, and self-identifies as an anarchic yoof. He may be 96 years old for all I know, but he sure acts like a teenager wannabe. I'm not sure why his biological age is relevant. In any case, my position is that his actual edits are not racist and there is no evidence in his edit history that he is pursuing a racist agenda. Sid Vicious wore a swastika. He wasn't a Nazi; he was a punk. Paul B (talk) 14:19, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree, he doesn't appear to be pursuing a racist agenda here. He appears to be trolling here. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:14, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Anthony, it's called "AGF". Might want to try it some times. I don't condone Bonkers' use of the word in such edits as this, but there are non-trolling alternatives. Also, where did I bring up age? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:32, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Paul did. Bonkers acts like (and I think claims to be) a kid ... a reckless kid. Or he acts like an old troll. You're in the town Bonkers claims to live in. Have you met? It matters because implicit or explicit in most of the enabling going on above is, "Awww. He's just a mixed-up kid. Cut him some slack." --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:14, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Note that the word "nigger" links to Booker T. Washington. Is there a benign explanation for this attempt to have Wikipedia call Booker T. Washington a "nigger"? Kablammo (talk) 20:12, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support topic ban. While I have somehow picked up an obsession of saying 'nigga' in the past week, I certainly do not bring it here, for obvious reasons. Insulam Simia (talk · contribs) 18:49, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Question: The original DYK nomination for one of the articles read:  ... that "Niggers in the White House" (1902) was written after the President invited a nigger to the White House?
 * Support, and I can't believe we're debating this. Sceptre (talk) 20:22, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Never mind a topic ban, that original diff of the DYK submission presented by Kablammo is enough for me to think about pressing the "indef" button. Black Kite (talk) 20:27, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "Relax, negroes ain't gonna chop off our heads" didn't already do it for you? In BTC's words, "If anyone were to offer negative criticism of this hook, then the person would be deemed to have issues".89.240.40.140 (talk) 20:32, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I hadn't even seen that. I'll wait for more input, but my inclination at the moment is, to be blunt, that we don't need that sort of shit. Black Kite (talk) 20:37, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't forget "Niggers niggers niggers niggers. There!". 89.240.40.140 (talk) 20:39, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with Black Kite. I don't use the term often, but seriously, ya'll are being trolled.--<b style="color:Navy;">Jezebel's</b> Ponyo <sup style="color:Navy;">bons mots 20:35, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The latest edits sealed the deal. Indeffed. Salvio Let's talk about it! 20:40, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You beat me to it by about four seconds. Good riddance. Black Kite (talk) 20:45, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Block
Bonkers got upset that people were going after him for the fact an article he created had "nigger" in the title and got put on the front page. He lashed out in response and when that inflamed the situation he backed away. Maybe he used the word in some edit summaries because he was still sore over the hostility exhibited towards him, but that is not trolling and it wasn't done gratuitously. There have been many people in this very thread who opposed a topic ban, never mind a block, and the basis for the block has been almost entirely due to conduct prior to the editor committing to not use the term "nigger" in discussions. I strongly oppose this block without consensus, which is clearly based more on personal emotion than any reasonable argument for preventing disruption.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 21:28, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You did read this diff? Anyone who is going to troll the community like that needs a rest from editing until it's clear they're going to stop. An indefinite block, is, of course, not infinite.  It is up to the user themselves now to show us that we can unblock without this issue coming up again. Black Kite (talk) 21:38, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I actually read it days before this thread even started, and I recognize two things: 1. The comment was not trolling, but an annoyed response to this comment suggesting Bonkers have the article deleted because another editor found the subject offensive and "unutterable". 2. He made this statement in response to subsequent criticism. Since then his only edits related to that subject have been to create a short article on a notable play protesting racism and discrimination that used the term in its title for effect and to use the term in some edit summaries where the article had "nigger" in the title. You could paint that maybe as a minor rebellion against such objections, but it is also not throwing the term out without reasonable cause.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 21:55, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I could go with that were it not for the editor's obvious fascination with many other articles containing the word (or simply just using it). Either it's trolling, or it's deliberate provocation of others, which in the end amounts to the same thing. Black Kite (talk) 22:11, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There's nothing wrong with being fascinated by any topic as long as the edits themselves are legitimate. Some people are fascinated by serial killers and write articles about them. We don't accuse them of promoting murder. Paul B (talk) 08:35, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Apparently, you're confusing Wikipedia with 4chan, TDA... When Bonkers provides assurances that he'll stop being wantonly provocative, then he'll be unblocked; until then, he should be prevented from trolling. Salvio Let's talk about it! 21:50, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * See my comment to Black Kite.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 21:55, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of Bonkers but I find this Admin decision-making on AN/AN/I mystifying. Where was everyone's outrage during this discussion: Articles for deletion/Niggers in the White House? What's changed? Well, yesterday someone Googled "Barak 'Magic Nigga' Obama" (why? no one asks) and Bonkers' name came up in the search engine results and that fact was shared here for some reason. That single observation prompted this discussion and an indefinite block, from out of nowhere. I'll admit that Bonkers himself didn't help his case and added fuel to the fire. But he's never had any blocks before, look at his long talkpage and you'll see no warnings about conduct at all.

Again, I find Bonkers irritating, personally, but being irritating isn't a crime, there are plenty of Editors here in good standing who are abrasive. As I said, I'm not a fan, but I hate that this is how Wikipedia works...you can be editing for two years, have been granted rights to be a autoreviewer, reviewer, rollbacker. Then, someone posts a negative comment about you at AN/AN/I, it snowballs and, within 36 hours, you're indefinitely blocked.

What changed from 15:58, 23 September 2013 to this moment? I'm a relatively new Editor but I'm seeing this over and over again. A person gets reported or, worse, files a complaint against someone else and the gang that hangs out here immediately starts calling for indefinite blocks. It's like throwing chum in a shark tank, people don't want an Editor to get a 24-hour or week-long block, either the problem is ignored ("no consensus") or you get indef'd...there is no middle ground.

Sorry if this seems like drama to you but I'm beginning to think that any Editor can be hung out to dry if enough people start calling for a block or ban. Look through anyone's contributions and you can pull out a few questionable decisions and ill-tempered remarks. Who is safe? Only those Editors who keep their heads down, don't alienate well-known users or who have allies who will speak up for them when these discussions spiral out-of-control. It's discouraging to see, as they say, how the sausage is made. Liz <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 23:13, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * - but he has been warned about this before, by me, links in above discussion. GiantSnowman 09:04, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Someone had asked "Why was Anthonyhcole Googling..." and it was answered. Due to the irritation caused by Bonkers the Clown, Anthonyhcole has written Booker T. Washington dinner at the White House and Jessie DePriest tea at the White House-like the way pearls are formed. &mdash; rybec 00:26, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm hoping to merge them into an article on White House hospitality to African Americans. There is quite a bit of interesting and controversial history there. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 19:55, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it is a matter of experience. I have no doubt in my mind about Bonkers. They were not just irritating or misunderstood, they were very obviously being deliberately provocative in an extremely sensitive topic area. All they had to do was show some sign that they would stop doing that as it constitutes trolling, and they would not have been blocked. The "magic nigga" comment is a reference to an overtly racist song attacking Barak Obama. Not a political song, a racist song. We cannot, should not, and do not tolerate hate speech on Wikipedia, and that is exactly what Bonkers was engaging in, regardless of whatever weak excuses he offered to the contrary. We were being trolled, and now it's been stopped. That is all that happened here. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:33, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


 * But Beeblebrox, he did stop. The blocking admin falsely claimed he was reacting to the "the latest edits" by Bonkers, which in fact date from several weeks ago, . Bonkers had already agreed to desist from such obviously provocative silliness before the AI thread began. IP 89.240.40.140 quoted Bonkers as saying "If anyone were to offer negative criticism of this hook, then the person would be deemed to have issues". In fact that referred to a completely different hook: the one that was actually used. And the "niggers, niggers" line is comment about 'rich vocabulary', and, again, it is from some time ago. Was he being tiresome, yes? But it is in a context, and he had already agreed to stop days ago. This block demonstrates simply incompetence in reading the diffs in context - along with a desire to demonstrate a response to "racism" which punishes mere childishness while real racists roam free. Paul B (talk) 08:14, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Saying "the latest edits" does not mean "the edits he has made most recently" - it can also mean "the latest edits I have become aware of", which I presume is what was meant. GiantSnowman
 * I'm afraid I don't find that explanation very convincing. Those edits were made on a major forum weeks ago. If they had been seen as seriously problemartic in context by the many experienced editors at DYK Bonkers would have been reported. Salvio made a knee-jerk reaction to edits taken entirely out of context by the editors who posted them here. That is not competent use of adminstrator powers. Reading long threads and working out the context and sequence of events is boring and difficult, I realise, but that's what full debate on this noticeboard is supposed to be for. Paul B (talk) 09:18, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You're calling a block after a 2 day discussion "knee-jerk"? GiantSnowman 09:24, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh please. My point is precisely that Salvio did not follow the discusion ( he made one brief comment) or he would have recognised that those diffs were taken out of context as TDA has already explained; that they were from weeks ago and that Bonkers had already agreed to stop being silly. All of that is documented. Paul B (talk) 09:38, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah right, because he didn't comment he can't have read the entire thing? By your logic only blocks could/should be made by admins who have commented in the discussion i.e. only INVOLVED admins should make blocks - interesting. GiantSnowman 09:43, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Some people are being creative with the truth; so here are a couple of explanations: first, it's not true that Bonker didn't receive any warnings. He received various ones, which can be read in . Also, I have followed this discussion and even and, finally, the "latest edits" bit means exactly what GiantSnowman says. As a side note,  who you think is suited for an adult encyclopaedia?  Salvio Let's talk about it! 10:01, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are being creative with the truth, as is GS. My point has been very clearly that your comment demonstrates that you did not properly follow the discussion. I've explained why that is clear several times. Your "one comment" was not the reason, as any sensible reading of my explanations should make clear. This is just defensiveness, as the substantive points are not being responded to. You know that he agreed to stop using the word because you responded to the (now hatted) discussion on this talk page in which he agreed to do so. That's also why your explanation of the "latest edits" phrase makes no sense. Paul B (talk) 10:05, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * An adult encyclopedia? Did you forget that this is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, including anyone under 18 (like me)? <font color="FFCC00">My<font color="4000FF"> name <font color="FFCC00">is<font color="4000FF"> not <font color="FFCC00">dave (talk/contribs) (formerly Insulam Simia) 15:12, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Support the block of the troll . He can appeal the block on his talk page. Doc   talk  10:14, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Good block. The trolling from that account had reached a level of disruptiveness that had long since superceded the level of constructive edits by the editor. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:18, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Endorse block The initial racist DYK hook alone was enough to justify an indefinite duration block in my opinion. That it was combined with other trolling makes this very straightforward. Nick-D (talk) 11:50, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support block given his response in his unblock request blaming the blocking admin and telling us that he will "continue editing as usual" if he is unblocked is not encouraging that he understands why he was blocked or that he is going to modify his behavior in the future. Regards, — Moe   Epsilon  12:04, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Bad block Just to make this clear. To Moe, his statement that he would "continue editing as usual" should not be taken as saying he will continue saying "nigger" for no good reason, but more that he would continue to do work he has done for the past two years. He did, after all, say in the very same unblock statement: "I did accommodate to early requests, which I deemed as very reasonable." The problem is that this block came after he agreed to those requests to avoid gratuitous use of the term and without any sign of him going back on that promise.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 13:48, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Bad block. Per The Devil's Advocate. This user has apologised and will not use the phrase again, as far as we are to believe. This block seems punitive, not preventative. <font color="FFCC00">My<font color="4000FF"> name <font color="FFCC00">is<font color="4000FF"> not <font color="FFCC00">dave (talk/contribs) (formerly Insulam Simia) 15:12, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You're right, because he  the n-word after promising he wouldn't do that again and neither did he troll some more during the very discussion about his trolling.  Salvio Let's talk about it! 15:39, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The trolling here is certainly unacceptable, but it doesn't warrant indef. An indef block after another block would be acceptable, however. <font color="FFCC00">My<font color="4000FF"> name <font color="FFCC00">is<font color="4000FF"> not <font color="FFCC00">dave (talk/contribs) (formerly Insulam Simia) 16:38, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Excessive block Dropping an indef on someone with a clean block log, even for low level trolling is off the mark. Blackmane (talk) 15:22, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * How is repeatedly describing black people as "niggers" anywhere near "low level trolling"? GiantSnowman 15:26, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Good block - obviously. No place here for racists, no place here for trolls, certainly no place here for racist trolls. GiantSnowman 15:41, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: If someone could clarify the timeline here, that would be helpful. From the discussion above, apparently Bonkers was obsessed by the n-word and not in a constructive way. The discussion lead to a discussion on a topic ban that was (apparently) not quite concluded. Salvio blocked Bonkers. If the questionable behavior (i.e., use of the n-word in any context) continued while the topic ban discussion was ongoing, then this is a good block. If it didn't, then I'm not so sure. --regentspark (comment) 16:14, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak support block - I'm not 100% convinced an indef is the best solution for this case; but there are definitely serious problems with this user (that have continued after their block, given their response to the blocking admin) that may take an indeterminate time for this user to mature through (crappy wording, hopefully you'll work out what I mean!) - so I'm weakly supporting. Racists have no place here; nor do trolls, and Bonkers the Clown is not an eccentric; they're a troll, pure and simple. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 16:51, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


 * To everybody opposing the block - was this an appropriate thing to say to the blocking admin in response to the block? GiantSnowman 16:59, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, but when someone is using official powers against you while wrongly labeling you a racist and a troll it can be a little hard to keep your composure. I am a firm believer that behavior of the accused in a conduct noticeboard discussion or immediately following a sanction is not relevant to whether any sanction would be justified. That is often the time when people are least likely to be calm and composed.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 20:07, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

After seeing all the things Bonkers has done, I'm going to say that the block was a good idea. 173.58.53.65 (talk) 19:36, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hasty block, but not worth reversing. I'm somewhat split on this. First of all, I hate racism, and can't stand people who deliberately walk the line between "political incorrectness" and outright bigotry. On the other hand, it's not fair to block someone for saying things they've since agreed not to say, and, as has been noted above, Bonkers's race-related contributions subsequent to his agreement to stop using the N-word were not blatantly deliberate provocation. I appreciate that in combination with his past edits they are much more problematic than if they simply existed in a vacuum, but I think the appropriate administrative response here would still have been to leave him a final warning, saying that if he didn't steer away from race issues right now, he'd be blocked.  (Not saying I'd agree with such a warning, but admins are entitled to demand anything they want of other users if they're willing to press the button if they don't comply.)  On the third and most important hand, though, I'm about 90% confident that if all that had been done, Bonkers would have still slipped over the line at some point within the next month. He would have probably gamed the system in a variety of ways, pushing the envelope until he did something truly worthy of a block.  I'm not a huge fan of precrime, but now that Bonkers is blocked, I seriously doubt unblocking him will do anything more than add extra complication the next time he's (more deservedly) indeffed. I welcome Bonkers to prove me wrong (which would involve demonstrating that he understands why many people take offense to non-black people using the N-word, regardless of context), and I also encourage Salvio to be less impulsive in the future. —  PublicAmpers <font color="FF1493">&#38; (main account • talk • block) 18:12, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Good block. It's a racist troll. Not because he wrote Niggers in the White House and No Niggers, No Jews, No Dogs per se. But because he casually refers to African Americans as niggers, wears a swastika, and is churning out articles with "nigger" in the title so he can put them on Wikipedia's front page. Didn't he groundlessly decline hundreds of AfC submissions, like his friend or sock User:Arctic Kangaroo? And attitude. Check out the attitude. If you're going easy on him because you think he's a child, you're being had. What the fuck are you people doing, nurturing and protecting this? Jesus. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 19:50, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. I am constantly amazed at the kind of behavior that some editors will defend.  This is why civility and behavior policies have turned into unenforceable jokes.  Gamaliel  ( talk ) 19:51, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Good block - Sic semper troglodytarum. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:19, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Copyvio / Revdel request
I know revdel requests don't go here, but it's just a copyvio so no worries regarding the Streissand effect. I followed the instructions here for non-admins (check my contribs), so can an admin follow the instructions here and do steps #2-9. Rgrds. --64.85.215.87 (talk) 06:27, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * <span id=""> Mark Lamping ( [ edit] &#124; talk &#124; [ history] &#124; [ protect] &#124; [ links] &#124; [ watch] &#124; [ logs] )
 * RevDel done. Dpmuk (talk) 07:23, 26 September 2013 (UTC)