Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive274

Useitorloseit unblock request


This user requests a WP:OFFER unblock: I'm requesting the standard offer. It says to contact willing admins by e-mail/IRC but I can't find a list of the willing admins nor anyone's e-mails, so I'm just posting this. I have stayed away for over 6 months, and while I am not the world's most frequent Wikipedia contributor (I am not an expert on a lot of things), I believe I have made helpful contributions and can make more, and I'd like to move past the drama that took up all my time/attention before. 129.174.252.6 (talk) 17:05, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
 * What went wrong: I made a textbook example of disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point. 1000% guilty there.  After that point (mid-February 2014), I think I was a lot better at keeping to the rules, but by then there were understandably very few people who had the time/inclination to bother with me.  One person who did, retired admin SGGH, noted the before/after split by saying my earlier behavior was "not particularly good" but later I had been "appropriate and diplomatic."  But arguing about changing consensus for a contentious edit that is not that important was not going to convince many other editors, for obvious reasons.  Going forward, to avoid a repeat of the situation I would: follow the rules very closely and ask if I was uncertain about the proper etiquette; work collaboratively and if faced with contentious editors, use the dispute resolution process and let the chips fall where they may; understand that not every edit is worth a huge amount of time fighting over; and remember that there's no time limit on improving an article so some things take time and that's fine.  Useitorloseit (talk) 21:07, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Please share your thoughts. Max Semenik (talk) 21:14, 22 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I would like to know what the sanctions mentioned in the block log were, and where we can see any discussion that may have resulting in your final block. Chillum 22:42, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: Assuming that the IP 129.174.252.6 is assigned to, the claim that they have stayed away for 6 months may be a tad premature([//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/129.174.252.6]). However, the edit done under that IP address ([//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Warhammer_Fantasy_novels&diff=prev&oldid=656297305]) was not disruptive and appears to be a good edit.  That being said, I weakly Support the user's petition for unblock.  User has owned up to their past mistakes and I believe that the user has demonstrated that they understand why they were blocked in the first place.  In addition, editor has promised to strive towards following Wikipedia's editing guidelines and to follow WP:DR in the future. --Stabila711 (talk) 01:25, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Stabila711, the April usage of this IP address is irrelevant: it's assigned to George Mason University. It's highly likely that these edits were made by other people, especially if it's a dorm address.  Nyttend (talk) 03:20, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Well then, let my comment be stricken. Thank you for clearing that up Nyttend. --Stabila711 (talk) 03:28, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
 * You're welcome, and thanks for striking it. I found my on-campus IP addresses changing almost daily when I was in graduate school, so I know how unlikely it is to get an address you had months ago.  Nyttend (talk) 03:42, 23 August 2015 (UTC)


 * User clearly acknowledges what was wrong before and what will be different this time if they're given a second chance. Yeah I'd have no problem accepting this request per the standard offer, WP:AGF and WP:ROPE. S warm   ♠  05:51, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:OFFER. GregJackP   Boomer!   16:26, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support, all the right noises being made here. Worth giving them another chance.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 13:08, 25 August 2015 (UTC).
 * Oppose, He was reblocked in august for abusing alternative accounts so i dont think he should be unblocked
 * That wasn't a reblock. That was a change in settings done so the user can edit his own talk page to request WP:OFFER. The last time he was actually blocked was in July of 2014. --Stabila711 (talk) 23:09, 26 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Support per Lankiveil, WP:OFFER and WP:ROPE Nil Einne (talk) 19:24, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support. The worst that happens is that we end up coming back here in a few days.  Second chances are cheap. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:44, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support. All water under the bridge - give him another go. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  11:46, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Appeal against Topic ban
With a sense of disappointment and most humbly i wish to appeal against a topic ban enforced against me at the article Bhumihar, here. I must admit that i could see the ban coming for some time, or may be some harsher sanction, given an administrator's continued displeasure, expressed at all times, at any suggestions made at the talk page Talk:Bhumihar and some previous unsuccessful effort of his to get me sanctioned for similar reasons at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#CIR_at_Bhumihar. - Sitush (talk) 20:22, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

The eagerness to ban me could be gauged from the fact that the last edit i made at the talk page Bhumihar was partially accepted, although grudgingly. The other part of the edit, which was rejected and is the apparent reason of my ban (apart from some perceived POV pushing) consisted in my removing a vague reference made in the article sourced from a book by Jeffery Witsoe (citation no 16 ). The reference in question commented upon the official categorization of the Bhumihar caste as Shudras by some "earlier British colonial censuses" conducted in India (Earlier here implies - prior to 1889 A.D.). The colonial census in British India is a well documented, systematic, annalized historic record which can be easily accessed and is not so inaccessible so as to be left to speculation and guesses. The administrator instead of appreciating the records made some unrealistic speculations as to the date of the census without ever giving the catual date or the exact census in question.

The edit and removal act i did at the article was at least 4-5 days after i requested all editors to clarify the vagueness of the reference in that it neither gives the date of the census it refers to, nor it's number nor anything about it that could make it identify which exact census it was referring to.

The reference to categorisation of Bhumihars as Shudras is wholly incorrect and unfounded as they were never categorised as Shudras. Many people had pointed out the same thing on the Bhumihar talk page earlier than i, but none was replied to.

The same administrator has dismissed authoritative sources such as James Prinsep as every Tom, Dick and Harry unworthy of being quoted and didnot even bother to reply to my suggestions insofar as i did not edit the article.

That i did not edit the article after the warning and yet the ban.

That i should be 'judged' for my last edit which was partially accepted and is worthy of full explanation and eventual acceptance should anybody bother to verify.

I call upon all the reviewers in supplication if any to afford me a just hearing.

rahila 20:10, 25 August 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrishitch (talk • contribs)

rahila 20:11, 25 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Note: The above may be a little confusing, but I've followed this user somewhat, and so I know that by the references to an/the administrator they mean User:Sitush. Chrishitch, Sitush is not an admin, just an editor like you, and he didn't topic ban you. Abecedare did. Bishonen &#124; talk 20:34, 25 August 2015 (UTC).
 * What Bishonen said. Some relevant links for reviewers:
 * Locus of disruption and IDHT-behavior that led to topic-ban: Talk:Bhumihar
 * Prior complaints about and feedback to user: ANI discussion and user talk page:
 * Rationale for topic ban given here. See also prior appeal on my talkpage.
 * If there are any questions, feel free to ask. Abecedare (talk) 20:42, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Acknowledging the ping from Bish. - Sitush (talk) 23:16, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

They strive to see a pattern in my editing (disruptive) with the intent to push a POV but what they can't see is the simple fact that each one of the suggestions i made on the talk page (yes precisely the talk page) were different from the other.

I raised some very relevant issues, few of which were addressed very reluctantly and after repeated pointers at my incompetence ,tendentiousness ,disruption and the rest.

They say it's been a long circular effort on my part to push my POV. Well, there was a series of efforts ,linear in shape and undefined in dimensions with many marked by article improvements and marred by warnings and complaints which was as is solely aimed at pointing out the flaws in the sources and vagueness in the content.

If anybody wishes to research a bit in order to help the article, go through the fallacies i have pointed out; because i follow the errors , not any patterns -neither circular nor rectangular.

User:Chrishitch rahila 22:31, 25 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Why are you having problems, signing your posts, properly? GoodDay (talk) 23:59, 25 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Endorse topic ban. There are competence issues here, exemplified by the inability to learn how to sign a post, despite attempts to educate. The request for overturn is phrased in such a strange manner that it does not give confidence in the opening party's ability to contribute constructively. DrKiernan (talk) 13:01, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

May i hope there could be issues more important than the One about my signature ? The particular wiki article is spreading lies and whosoever points at it is met with a stern warning not to indulge and is accused of being a POV pusher. The new editors are scoffed at and reminded about their incompetence subsequently. I don't deny i am taking time to get used to wiki methodology and technicalities to say the least. However, i am very sorry to say that the other editors seem so much more concerned about my inability to contribute Constructively ( i don't know if pointing out the specific misinformation or lies in the article, albeit with trusted sources qualifies to be called so) that none appears to have had the time to read the talk page or even spare a few minutes to get into the details of the article.

Is anybody interested in going into the details of the ' dispute ' ? Or is my incompetence the biggest issue facing the article Bhumihar on wiki ? Can anybody spare some time and efforts to check the veracity of article ? rahila 15:08, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Ruse (book)
Would an admin close Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Ruse (book)? The MfD template says, "You are welcome to edit this page, but please do not blank, merge, or move it, or remove this notice, while the discussion is in progress." I would like to move the page to mainspace, but the MfD notice says to wait for a close first. Cunard (talk) 03:13, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think you can move it anywhere until the MfD has been closed as "Keep" or "No consensus". And if it's closed as "Delete" there won't be anything to move. BMK (talk) 04:53, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is why I am asking for a close instead of moving it. Cunard (talk) 04:55, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, an admin should close it on the basis of whatever the consensus is, not because you want to move it, so that's pretty irrelevant. Why is it so darn important that it be closed right now?  Are we on deadline or something? BMK (talk) 04:58, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It's been open for 17 days, I don't see the harm in asking for a close. Jenks24 (talk) 07:58, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Point taken. BMK (talk) 21:55, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Copyright cleanup help
At articles for creation we have a category of submissions declined as copyright violations. Many should have been deleted under G12 but were instead simply declined and retained. Many of those that were not proper G12 candidates should have been sent for copyright investigation or the violating material removed and the history assigned for RevDeletion using. Regardless, it is a bad idea that we have a category that amasses an index of copyright violating drafts with the copyvios retained in most of their page histories. Anyway, I have spent the past few days cleaning out the category in various ways, and created a new template function and category for the CV cleaned drafts. The CV declined category had 657 entries when I started and I have it down to just 232 left. If everyone reading this will do just five, we can clean out the majority in no time. Here's my suggested procedure, if anyone is willing to help:
 * 1) Go to the category and choose five (maybe use the third letter from your last name or something like that to select what letter in the category to take from, so randomness will avoid duplication of efforts);
 * 2) The AfC reviewer's copyvio decline will state what page they found text copied from (in some you will have to click edit to see the url);
 * 3) Compare the draft against the page flagged by the AfC reviewer and delete copied text. Then, as is often the case, the balance of the text will also be a copyvio, but from one or more other sites. Take a few small but unique snippets of the remaining text and throw into Google in quotes. It's fairly fast if you delete and save as you go. See the history here for an example;
 * 4) Delete under G12 if appropriate (no non-infringing revision to revert to and substantially all is a copyvio);
 * 5) If G12 is not appropriate, Revdelete the history to hide the infringing content;
 * 6) Change the decline parameter on the page from  to   – that is, the existing decline template will appear in edit mode as (parameter you will be changing in underlined red):   to (change in underlined green):
 * 7) Go to the talk page and add  (note template automatically signs for you).
 * That's it. For each admin that does not help, God will kill a kitten. Please think of the kittens.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 05:25, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I did some! It's not hard. -- Diannaa (talk) 16:32, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Articles Utigurs/Kutrigurs vandalization
Hello,

Since 28.8.2015 the user 78.159.147.70 is vandalizing the articles "Utigurs" and "Kutrigurs" with his edits of the articles:  https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Utigurs&oldid=678429983

He/she is constantly adding a statement to the articles which:

1. is not supported from the cited sources - in the cited books there is no such conclusion on the referred pages, it is completely imaginary thinking

2. it is off the main topic, the articles are for particular Bulgar tribes (Utigurs and Kutrigurs), not for the Bulgars as a whole

3. it is copy-pasted from the article Dulo/Origin - the last sentence

4. the statement is illogical - by what logic " claiming Attilid descend" should means that the Bulgars were Turks? Probably the guy who wrote this sentence was not very sober. (As if I claim Habsburgs' descend should this mean that I am from Spain? - no logic here)

5. It contains a blatant grammar/spelling mistake.

Thank you 93.123.105.178 (talk) 19:49, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Regulation Committee and alternatives to consensus

 * Pictogram voting wait.svg

Members of the community are invited to give their thoughts at a request for comment to discuss Wikipedians' alternatives to consensus, and the formation of a proposed Regulation Committee. Thank you, --ceradon ( talk •  edits ) 04:20, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Business picking up at WP:COIN
This is a heads-up, not a request for admin action at this time.

COI editing is picking up over at WP:COIN. The latest generation of COI editors mostly follow Wikipedia rules. They disclose their COI, they don't edit war, they add references, and they write well. The end result is heavily promotional. Writing by COI editors is not from a neutral point of view, and presents WP:NPOV problems. Such articles contain only positives for the article subject; negative info is not mentioned. Advertising-like language is used. (My current favorite: “Our design is an integration of volumes that flow into each other and, following a coherent formal language, create the sensibility of the building's overall ensemble.” - article about a proposed condo for sale in NYC.) Subjects of marginal notability are pumped up with weak references to give the subject a Wikipedia presence.

All these problems can be dealt with within Wikipedia policies. It's a lot of work. Balancing an article written by a PR firm requires searching for references and writing substantial amounts of text, and may require subject matter expertise. It's not a quick "delete" or "block" action. Toning down promotional language per WP:PEACOCK is quite possible but time-consuming. Dealing with paid editors is a huge time sink for volunteer editors. Deleting a promotional article where notability is marginal means a full AfD, which requires the attention of many editors, especially when the COI editors argue strongly against deletion. For uninteresting articles, getting enough votes to close the AfD may take weeks.

We also seem to be developing an ecosystem where PR firms use a pool of paid editors recruited on freelancing sites, so that no one editor is associated with many articles. (Many ads for such editors are showing up on freelancing sites). There are people advertising as their portfolio the actual Wikipedia articles they edited for pay..) This is probably sock/meat puppeting as Wikipedia usually defines the term, but it's hard to detect and deal with.  This is a growing problem.  See the last few weeks of WP:COIN. Somehow we need to get a handle on that. Suggestions?

It was easier when the paid editors were incompetent. Their actions were blatant and obvious. Eventually, they'd be blocked for disruptive editing or sock puppeting. The new generation of COI editors present new problems. We have no way to block a PR agency and all its minions. John Nagle (talk) 19:45, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The problem is that this pulls people off quality article writing to instead having to clean up the COI editor's mess, in order to get it to Wikipedia standards, so we are essentially working for the PR firm, for free, instead of on core articles. Allowing COI editors to edit if they disclose is better than trying to disallow it and forcing it into the shadows, but it seems to me that part of the problem is that WP:CORP has the bar too low for many of these, which get just enough mentions on marginal sources to slide by.  The only way to deal with it is to change GPG/CORP to a higher standard for inclusion, from what I can see.  Then we AFD the fluff off the site.  Changing GNG (and by extension WP:CORP) in regards to corporations would require an RFC and would be a fairly large undertaking with plenty of contention.  Personally, I think we have the standard for WP:N too low as it is.  Yes, we are digital and there is no risk of running out of space, but the manpower to police every song, every minor band, every minor company is huge and takes away from our core responsibility.  The entire encyclopedia suffers due to all this marginal baggage.   Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 20:29, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with Dennis. Since policing is becoming impossible, raising the notability bar will help.  Mini  apolis  20:40, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Darn! I was just looking for a NYC condo that is an integration of volumes that flow into each other that follows a coherent formal language to create the sensibility of the building's overall ensemble. The place I am living in now has a really incoherent formal language and no overall ensemble sensibility at all.


 * Seriously, though, other than what we are already doing (COIN, encouraging the good guy paid editors who create encyclopedic and non-promotional articles) there is another method that Wikipedia has not tried. Now I am just throwing this out as an idea, not a polished proposal, but what if the WMF used a tiny percentage of the millions it has in the bank to run some sting operations and get some lawyerly cease-and-desist action going? We could pretend to be a customer, contract for a page that doesn't belong on Wikipedia, study how they respond to our current anti-POV efforts, then sue the bastards. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:44, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * We might not need to change policy, just interpret it more strictly. WP:CORP, WP:PRODUCT, WP:GEO (which covers buildings) and WP:BIO set out tougher notability criteria than Wikipedia generally enforces.  WP:CORP discusses whether all NYSE-listed companies are notable, and says even some giant companies might not be.  WP:PRODUCT discourages product articles separate from company articles unless the product is really well known, as with Diet Pepsi.   We could take the position that, in the presence of promotional/COI editing, Wikipedia's existing rules should be strictly enforced. We need to think this through, to keep it from being used as a bludgeon. Comments?  John Nagle (talk) 22:40, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree. A major problem is that people take a way-too-loose interpretation of policy in many cases.  Nominate an article for deletion because it's gotten nothing but flash-in-the-pan news coverage, and all the keepers claim that they're secondary sources because they're not affiliated with the company.  Close a different deletion discussion as "delete", ignoring the keepers because they make the same argument as in the first discussion, and you get hauled to DRV and shouted down by the Randies who call you an idiot and idiosyncratic when you attempt to explain slowly and carefully (using academic sources) that their precious newspaper articles about the subject's latest activities are primary and unable to demonstrate long-term significance.  We need to begin more systematically ignoring "keep" votes at AFD from people who haven't a clue about the actual meaning of the terms they throw around.  Nyttend (talk) 00:18, 28 August 2015 (UTC)


 * It is entirely within expectations that as WP becomes the major place people go for information, every commercial and noncommercial organization in the world will want a page here. We have various mechanisms to deal with the undeclared paid editors, but we will never eliminate them as long as we maintain that the principle of anonymity is more important than anything else. For declared paid editors, we need to deal with the articles, not the editors. I have three suggestions, which would help individually, but would help best in combination:,
 * One This requires no policy or guideline change, just a change in our attitude: At afd, accept the argument that Borderline notability combined with promotionalism is a  reason for deletion.
 * Two Increase the notability requirements for organizations, particularly new organizations. That's not where all the problem is, but its the key area at present. The problem is how to do it fairly across all organizations. I like a previous suggestion, I think by, that the presumption for a new organization is that it is not notable. This would be a change in the WP:Deletion policy or in the guideline WP:ORG.
 * Three accomplish the same effect by a change in the guideline for WP:ORG or WP:RS that Sources primarily giving information about the motivation for founding a company and its initial financing are not reliable for notability on the basis that they are inevitably PR or inspired by it.      DGG ( talk ) 17:20, 28 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I concur entirely with everyone here. However, the major problem that everyone is missing is that we only have one firewall against using Wikipedia for promotional purposes. It's called NPP and it's the most important single operation on Wikipedia; anything that slips through, 'patrolled' and untagged, is safely and securely in Wikipedia for ever. The total paradox is that unlike Rollback, PC Reviewer, or the AfC that persistently creates more talk than action, NPP requires absolutely no prior experience and no demonstration of maturity or clue whatsoever to check 1,000 pages a day, and the New Pages Feed & Curation Toolbar which I/we fought tooth and nail to  get  the Foundation  to build for us is only  as good as the people who use it.


 * In order to  seriously  address the issue of professional spammers, we would have to start by significantly  racking  up  the criteria for AUTOCONFIRMED,  insisting  that  all  non-autoconfirmed accounts and IPs create their articles through the Article Wizard in the non-indexed Draft space, merge AfC to NPP (we already have consensus for that), add a couple more boxes to  tick in the Curation Toolbar, and merge Rollback and PC Reviewer together with  NPPer into  a user right with  a suitably  high threshold of competence. What's left of AfC which is basically a minor project, could be merged to WP:ARS.


 * It still wouldn't completely solve the problem of spammers who  apply for and get those rights in order to  patrol and pass their own articles (it happens more often than one would care to believe) but  it would be a major step in the right direction. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 19:01, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * DGG's proposal, "Borderline notability combined with promotionalism is a reason for deletion," sounds like a good start. That would presumably apply to AfD, deletion review, and proposed deletion, and would make it much easier to remove promotional material. How can we make that formal policy?
 * We might also want to reconsider who can remove a PROD. Right now, WP:PROD policy says "Any editor may object to the deletion by simply removing the tag". That's an old policy, and predates newer restrictions on article creation. This forces many promotional articles to AfD, which takes a lot of editor time.  Many such AfDs fizzle out, simply because few editors spend time on the boring process of voting on AfDs for uninteresting articles.  Perhaps PROD removal should require the same privileges as those required to create an article without going through Articles for Creation.  Also, at present you can remove a PROD on an article you created.  Is that a good thing? This requires a bit more thought. Comments?  John Nagle (talk) 19:33, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * And who tags articles for PROD, BLPPROD, CSD, and AfD? The NPPrs. Some of them (far too few) do an excellent job, but far too many of them don't fully understand what they are doing and haven't read WP:NPP or WP:DELETION before starting to use the Curation tool as a MORPG. If I spend an hour a day at NPP, I find myself spending more time educating the patrollers and correcting their tags than actually patrolling the new articles myself. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 21:14, 28 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Pinging User:CorporateM who I suspect may have some valuable insight on this. ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:07, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * DGG and I are on the same page about promotion or misrepresentation of the total body of literature being a factor at AfD. This guide is useful for identifying promotion or coatrack in org pages and already discourages separate articles for companies and products under WP:ORGVANITY. Most promotion is pretty obvious if you know what to look for. Axe dedicated Awards sections, remove promotional quotes lifted from the source, remove primary sources, remove off-topic information about executives, and question articles that contain no negative material at all. If the article is say B class, it is better than what most volunteers write and marginal bias is tolerable. However, I'd say about 85% of requested edits fall under the categories mentioned above (adding awards, primary sources, etc.) and they can be politely rejected, pointed to WP:ORGAWARDS, etc.. Disclosure: I am a sponsored editor. CorporateM (Talk) 15:46, 30 August 2015 (UTC)


 * In addition the article side points that many bring up (and I'm mostly in agreement with), there's also the user side stuff that brings up. As a first step I think we should start changing our SPI titles in such cases to the names of the PR companies itself, and not the first user. Take a couple of SPIs -- Smileverse and Kabir Vaghela. The former includes a bunch of freelancers who have been working together for multiple PR firms but typically coordinated under the Bangalorean name, while in the latter it is from "EveryMedia Technologies" and the sock farm is plain ridiculous and they've covered everything from Hyundai to Hindi films. Getting the firm names provides COIN patrollers easier identification marks and also a list of clients is more easily accessible to do the spot checking here. At the end of the day this is wasting the time of numerous good-faith editors because these sockfarms are relentless. In less than a week I've had to block a dozen socks for just one article, most of them off SPI. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  06:51, 29 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Perhaps not entirely related, but there is also an issue with inaction. Regularly I see or I nominate article for deletion that are promotional or plain advertising but not entirely scream that of the roofs. Unfortunately, those article are hard to deal with. Quite often there will be comments like "this can be solved through normal editing". Comments that are blurted out and that nobody, not even the commentator, will act upon. And the article is kept afterwards. This inaction is also allowing a lot of advertising in Wikipedia... The Banner talk 10:15, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * When we know the PR firm, that's reasonable enough. It's been done before; look up "Rockwick" in the AN/I archives. But often, we don't know, or are not sure. There's also may be a WP:OUTING issue.  The inaction problem is a big problem with AfDs. AfDs on promotional take a lot of editor time, and often close as "no consensus" due to lack of interest.  There, I'd suggest "Borderline notability combined with promotionalism is a reason for deletion," and "You cannot delete a PROD on an article you created" as policies. This would make it easier to delete promotional articles via PROD, which is mostly automated.  I can't speak to the Articles for Creation end of the process; I mostly work WP:COIN, and once something gets there, it's already been created. John Nagle (talk) 20:03, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Coat of Many Colours
[Cross-posting in accordance with Arbitration_Committee/Clerks/Procedures.] is hereby banned from the English Wikipedia. For the Arbitration Committee, -- Guerillero &#124;  Parlez Moi  01:12, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Supporting: Courcelles, DGG, Doug Weller, Euryalus, GorillaWarfare, Guerillero, LFaraone, Seraphimblade, Thryduulf, Yunshui

For the Arbitration Committee, L235 (t / c / ping in reply ) 03:04, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard

Motion: Longevity
The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

For the Arbitration Committee, L235 (t / c / ping in reply ) 22:53, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard

Whoops
I inadvertently made an edit without logging in at Shooting of Michael Brown, then made a dummy edit saying the edit was mine. For the edit where I inadvertently didn't log in, could someone remove my IP address from the history? Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:25, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Motion: Activity
[Cross-posting in accordance with Arbitration_Committee/Clerks/Procedures.] In accordance with the standing procedure on inactivity, the checkuser permissions of: and the oversight permissions of: are removed. The committee thanks them for their many years of service. For the Arbitration Committee, -- Guerillero &#124;  Parlez Moi  18:37, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Supporting: AGK, Courcelles, Doug Weller, Euryalus, GorillaWarfare, Guerillero, LFaraone, NativeForeigner, Roger Davies, Thryduulf

For the Arbitration Committee, L235 (t / c / ping in reply ) 20:26, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard

Arbitration motion regarding Argentine History
The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

For the Arbitration Committee, L235 (t / c / ping in reply ) 01:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard

Blanking stale warnings from IP talk pages
Seeing stale warnings for edits they didn't make is confusing to IP users. I would like to use AutoWikiBrowser to blank the warnings from any IP talk pages with no warnings from 2014 or 2015. Notices regarding the identity off the users' ISPs would be preserved. I am posting here before starting this task to ensure that it has consensus. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 19:08, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Be sure to read the related essay, WP:OLDIP. Thanks. -- zzuuzz (talk) 19:13, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Since about 2010, I have been replacing the content of stale IP pages with an OW tag. This removes harsh and accusatory language, and leaves a minimal footprint and a clear message, while preserving (and pointing to) the edit history of the page for further information. This was actually approved as a bot task in a Village Pump discussion, but it has not been undertaken. bd2412  T 19:30, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Bots/Requests for approval/EllisBot is started. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 03:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * And withdrawn, since hundreds of exclusion rules are apparently required if this task were to be run in fully automatic mode. If I proceed using AWB, I will be careful to avoid the removal of open proxy, sockpuppet, and active block notices. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 05:50, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I frankly don't see why a bot can't be programmed to follow those rules. Surely we can generate a list of IP talk pages that meet the criteria for templating (long unused, long unblocked) and have a bot run through that list. bd2412  T 17:17, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Is this going to remove Shared IP address templates? That would not be a good thing. Doug Weller (talk) 09:39, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm leaving the Shared IP address templates, if any, intact. While there's no doubt that in principle a bot could be written for this task, I'm not the one to write it. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 17:39, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Should we allow IPs and socks to file requests for arbitration enforcement?
Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement redirects to Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests, which is a low-traffic page. Putting this proposal there would hardly generate sufficient discussion, let alone a reasonable consensus, so here I am. A couple of WP:AE requests against Collect have been filed recently by IPs: 20 August and 23 August. (The second link is just a diff, sorry. Unfortunately I can't give the most helpful kind of link, to a section, since there's an absurd number of recent requests against Collect, all with the same headers.) People have complained in the discussions:
 * Floquenbeam, 20 August: "Wait, are we accepting AE reports from IP addresses now? I thought it said somewhere that we don't do that. If it doesn't, it should."
 * Fyddlestix, 23 August: "This reporting-as-an-ip nonsense is incredibly petty and lame, and I think Collect is quite right to call for an SPI here. If the IP can be tied to another editor then that editor should obviously face some serious sanction."
 * Chillum, 23 August: "This complaint also strikes me as being made in bad faith. The filer is clearly someone trying to evade scrutiny while attempting to seek action against another Wikipedian."

Neverthess, the requests have essentially been discussed in the normal way (then declined), which I believe is noticeboard creep and a waste of time. Of course there have also been earlier AE requests by IPs and new accounts — I think I blocked one of those for abuse of process myself once.

Proposal
We should make up our minds about the propriety or otherwise of non-autoconfirmed users (=IPs and less than four days old socks, I'm sorry, I meant to say new users) filing AE requests. I propose that we don't allow it, and that any user in good standing be encouraged to remove such requests. People should use their main account to complain about others. If indeed that main account isn't blocked; if it is, they shouldn't be posting at all. To believe that a user who genuinely doesn't have an established account would know the background of arbcom sanctions, would find their way to WP:AE, and would comply with the requirements and templates there, is AGF run mad. Bishonen &#124; talk 11:19, 29 August 2015 (UTC).


 * Support as proposer. I'll add that IMO, if a request is filed by an account that is gaming the autoconfirmation requirements, or is otherwise an obvious sock (on this particular board it's not really that hard to tell), it shouldn't be removed, but the AE admins ought to decline and close it briskly. Bishonen &#124; talk 11:19, 29 August 2015 (UTC).
 * Support While I suppose it is possible a new user would know enough about our proceses and how to find out if an editor is subject to AbrCom sanction it is so unlikely that any potential 'injustice' suffered by the 'new user' is far outweighed by the injustice of bad faith enforcement requests. The same can be said for IP editors although I have heard of, but never seen, a few long time editors who edit only as IPs. Those people have been around long enough to know that there are some things that IPs can not do. Again, the potential 'injustice' of not allowing IP reports is far outweighed by the actual injustice and potential harassment suffered by those who the anonymous report would be made. J bh  Talk  11:34, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Additional comment. - Disagree with as per the recent AE ArbCom case this would be an Admin action and not easily reversed. If an out of process case is opened by an new user or IP it should be closed but that should not be a bar from an established editor filing an Enforcement request based on the same issue. Otherwise false false reports could be easily used to game the system.  J bh  Talk  11:38, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * No, it absolutely shouldn't be a bar to an established editor filing an enforcement request based on the same issue. I didn't mean to suggest it should. Do you mean re-filing the same complaint would be a reversal of the admin action of declining it before, Jbhunley? I don't think so — it seems far-fetched to me. Certainly, if it was declined for the reason that the filer was not respectable, a refiling by a user in good standing wouldn't be a reversal of that decline. But, anyway, that was just a side comment of mine — not a part of my proposal. Bishonen &#124; talk 21:15, 29 August 2015 (UTC).
 * thank you for clearing that up. My concern was really just how closing/dismissing a request would be effected by section [//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration_enforcement#Dismissing_an_enforcement_request_.28alternate.29 4.1.5.1 Dismissing an enforcement request (alternate)] of the recent ArbCom AE case. I am not familiar enough with the 'usual and customary practices' at AE to know how things would actually pan out but I think any new procedures should explicitly address the matter. Rationally I would guess that a procedural dismissal would not be an 'administrative judgement call' so 4.1.5.1 would not apply but I can see disputants claiming otherwise. J bh  Talk  04:25, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

— Berean Hunter   (talk)  15:37, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support only when it's obvious that the IP is acting in bad faith. IP users are users and some people don't want to register accounts.  If they make a good faith complaint, that should be treated as such.  If it's not, close and dismiss it as a bad faith filing and sanction anyone else who tries to hold it against those named in the filing.  If someone else involved in the dispute wants to refile under their account, that would be acceptable.  Ravensfire  (talk) 13:28, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support - I suggest a threshold of editing for at least 30 days and at least 100 edits before an IP can open an AE request, or something similar. Also, we shouldn't ignore the ubiquitous elephant in the room. ← If you don't know what that means, just ignore it. - MrX 13:37, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support - although if an IP wants to comment or add evidence, I assume this would (and should) still be allowed. Regardless, if a registered user logs out just to file a request, that is the definition of evading scrutiny, thus shouldn't be allowed.  As a safeguard, preventing all IPs is a reasonable step as the necessity of an unregistered editor needing to file doesn't exist...they can ask an admin to file or take action at ANI/AN.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 13:43, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment Isn't pointless complains like the ones mentioned already covered by the AE rules? In that big red box at the top is the following line, "Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions."  So wouldn't the vexatious complains qualify those requests to be rejected anyways?  I have an issue with banning all IPs from filing with the Arbitration Committee.  Some of them have been around a while, edit from static IPs, and are useful contributors.  Should they not have the same avenues that registered editors have?  Perhaps we should just change the "may" in that warning to "will" and be done with it.  If you make a frivolous complain you will be blocked.  But banning all IPs from using a part of the dispute resolution process seems a little harsh. --Stabila711 (talk) 13:45, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I believe the idea here is to keep the targets of anonymous complaints from having to answer them. If we say no new/IP editors can file complaints it short circuits the kind of crap just had to go through because the presumption will be that anonymous complaints are not valid rather than the target being required to spend time and effort showing the complaint to be vexatious.  The very few static IP contributors can add a note to their filing linking to their contribs. We can then use the oft miscited WP:IAR for what it was meant for - to keep big picture rules from hurting the encyclopedia - and let the request continue as an exception .  J bh  Talk  14:14, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I would support contribution restrictions much more than a blanket ban on all IPs. I like how the autoconfirmed restrictions are set up.  IP exempt users on a TOR network have to have 90 days and 100 edits before they are autoconfirmed.  Perhaps those same restrictions can be used for AE? --Stabila711 (talk) 14:25, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * There are a lot of things we could do by adding something like a 'voting rights' group or raising the bar for 'autoconfirmed' that would address more issues than just this. The problem is that it still depends on some static identifier (Read UserName)  to grant/log those privilages to. IPs change - sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly and in some cases several people are editing from a single IP at the same time - so there is no way to track an editor without an account through IP changes so there is no way for them to build trust.  J bh  Talk  15:56, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support, as it would restrict filiers who are avoiding scrutiny. GoodDay (talk) 13:48, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose strongly - IP editors are WP:HUMANs and not second-class users. We only restrict IP access or editing abilities on a page when there are clear patterns of abuse, and only then temporarily unless there's years of abuse. Two filings in a week is not an "absurd number" and does not warrant such extreme restrictions. Frivolous filings should be closed as such, not because of the account status of the user.  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) Please &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; 14:09, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support If an IP or user is truly new to Wikipedia then they just do not know enough to make a valid case. If they somehow know enough about Wikipedia to make a valid case then it is likely they are hiding their identity through or evading a block through sock puppetry. Chillum 15:07, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support to prevent abuse of process and gaming the system by those who would avoid scrutiny.
 * Support - If a new user wants to file an AE, but are incapable of doing so themselves, they can always contact on the AE enforcers on their user talk pages, or, for that matter, pretty much anyone else, have that other individual look over the request for merit or lack of same, and, if they see fit, have the complaint taken care of in that way. John Carter (talk) 15:44, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support It's the scrutiny aspect for me. AE is a heavy hammer.  It shouldn't descend by anonymous denunciation.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:06, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support While it should be obvious if an IP is acting in good faith, the examples Bishonen has provided indicate that some threshold is needed so that this process isn't misused to hound others via a throwaway account or IP.--MONGO 16:45, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support Being able to edit as an IP can't be compared to being able to bring something to AE. Doug Weller (talk) 16:56, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support While one might dream up a plausible counterexample it is so rare that it isn't worth worrying about. In addition, a legitimate counterexample will know how to find ways to arrange for a filing.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  17:06, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support No brainer.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 17:23, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Weak Support The only concern is that we may stop someone who has a real problem from solving it. But, getting an account is trivial or waiting four days, and if thats all that stands in the way, its a no brainer. AlbinoFerret  18:12, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment First, this same issue came up months ago with Gamergate controversy editors so it's not a situation limited to the current complaints. Secondly, reading the instructions for the page, it appears as though the procedures have been instituted and changed by the Arbitration Committee and I'm not sure a proposal on AN can be used to revise the filing procedures. Finally, I suggested that Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement not to be redirected and to have its own talk page a few months ago but since I was just a AC clerk, I had no authority to make this change. But I think AE warrants having its own talk page to discuss issues that emerge in enforcing arbitration decisions. Liz Read! Talk! 21:39, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Regardless of the red tape needed to change procedure I find that arbcom is always open to the input of the consensus of the community. This discussion has value even if ANI does not have the authority to make this change(I have no idea if this is the case) because it will inform arbcom of the community's desire. Chillum 21:50, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * If this discussion results in consensus for the proposal, it should IMO be added to the Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Header as well as to the instructions in the editnotice (Template:Editnotices/Page/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement). I know you're the arbcom Kremlinologist here, Liz; could you clarify where you see an implication that community consensus wouldn't be sufficient authority to modify the AE instructions? It's not strictly an arbitration page, as far as I'm concerned, and arbs rarely have any input into the business conducted there. A look at the history tab of Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Header (=the AE page instructions) shows editing it isn't restricted to arbs and clerks, the way some arbitration pages are. It would be civil to ask the committee first, no doubt, since this would be a big change and no mere copyedit, and maybe they'd like to pass a motion or something. Though, appearances sometimes to the contrary, I've always assumed they're no fonder of busywork than the rest of us. Bishonen &#124; talk 09:58, 30 August 2015 (UTC).
 * P.S, speaking of the devil, an arbitrator can be seen supporting the proposal in this section, though I presume not as arbitrator. Bishonen &#124; talk 16:51, 30 August 2015 (UTC).
 * I've unredirected Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement and left a note there, and the arb committee has been notified of this discussion via their email list. NE Ent 17:53, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * And it turns out it takes an Act of Committee to change to ... see notice below. NE Ent 22:27, 30 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Supportper Bishonen. BMK (talk) 21:54, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WMF: You do not need to create an account to use any Wikimedia Site. . NE Ent 22:43, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Just pointing out the obvious, which should have occurred to even you: AE is not a "Wikipedia site", that would be Commons, Meta, Wikiquotes, another language's Wikipedia, Wikivoyage, stuff like that. AE is an area of this Wikipedia site, which IPs normally have access to unless the community or admins decide that IP editors should be barred, as happens everytime an article is semi-protected.  Saying that IPs "cannot use" en.wiki because they can't access a specific part of it is exactly the equivalent of saying that a non-admin "cannot use" en.wiki because certain pages are fully protected. It's a bogus argument, as the suggested change does not violate the quoted WMF policy.BMK (talk) 03:11, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * You've also conveniently neglected to quote the end of the sentence "...except under rare circumstances." Clicking on the link provided explains what "rare circumstances" means: " I thought I never needed an account to read or contribute! Under what circumstances would I need to register to read or contribute? You never need an account to read a public Wikimedia Site. And in most cases, you don't need an account to contribute to a Wikimedia Site. However, there are a few rare instances where you will need to register an account if you want to contribute. A local community of editors or contributors (for example, the English Wikipedia community or the Malay Wiktionary community) or the Wikimedia Foundation itself may decide to place temporary or permanent restrictions on what you can change. For example, a specific page may be temporarily restricted from editing to allow only experienced or administrative users because of vandalism or copyright concerns. You may also not upload content such as images or videos without being logged in because we need to verify that proper permissions have been obtained from the copyright holder (if the media is not already in the public domain) in order to post the content." So, there is no WMF policy restriction to this proposal. BMK (talk) 17:46, 31 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Support with suggested amendment IPs should be allowed to report at AE if they're involved in the situation related to the request and have made substantial edits in the topic area. IPs popping out of nowhere with no edits outside AE on the other hand... Brustopher (talk) 23:03, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
 * IPs popping out of nowhere with no edits outside are probably on a dynamic address anyway. The existing scary pink box at the top of the page says "Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions," which should be sufficient authorization for admins to deal with bogus IP complaints. On the other, what if an IP posts a totally righteous report after "the rule" goes into place? Are ya'll going to to ignore a AC violation because the reporter didn't have standing? NE Ent 02:25, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm very sorry to see that you've decided to return to your self-appointed position as contrarian and ombusdman-at-large, as it was rather nice when you had absented youtself from that role. BMK (talk) 03:18, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * In one of my more ridiculous moments, although, granted, given my history, it's hard to decide what goes higher and what lower on that list, I actually more or less presented the case of an individual who was the subject of an arbitration case because that individual chose not to do so herself, and added my material based on my e-mail exchanges with that person. I think it would always be possible to maybe add a comment, somewhere on the arb pages or in the box, to the effect of "if you find yourself unable to edit this page, there is a list of editors [here] who would be willing to act as intermediaries and post evidence they consider reasonable and appropriate for inclusion that is conveyed to them by others through e-mail, provided, of course, if there are individuals who would be willing to do so, and I guess I might count myself as one of them. John Carter (talk) 16:35, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support This is a good idea. Capitalismojo (talk) 03:45, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support Assuming good faith is fine, but perpetual disruption from obviously tainted sources such as a throw-away account or IP proposing AE action is unhelpful. Knowing that an attack is being mounted on someone accused by an IP is corrosive for the community—if the accused needs to be taken to AE, someone in good standing will notice. IPs can't edit semiprotected pages and cannot vote in Arbcom elections, and the WMF don't care about arbitration so long as they don't have to do anything. Johnuniq (talk) 05:11, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose We should make up our minds about the propriety or otherwise of non-autoconfirmed users. I've made up my mind, and I feel IPs are still just human beings behind a keyboard, and have as much "propriety" as anyone else. i.e. none. Shame on an experienced user allowing such wooly thinking even close to AN. Pedro : Chat  20:40, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Pedro, that's a crudely misleading way of quoting a fragment of my sentence "We should make up our minds about the propriety or otherwise of non-autoconfirmed users (…) filing AE requests." Shame on you for pretending I've been putting the "propriety" of non-autoconfirmed users in question, whatever that might mean. You're a native speaker, I believe, so surely the syntax wasn't beyond you. Bishonen &#124; talk 21:50, 30 August 2015 (UTC).


 * Oppose. You do not have to have an account to edit. IPs are already abused by the regulars and the admins, now they can't complain about it either? GregJackP   Boomer!   20:41, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose  Unless the IP's  are shown to be socks or some banned editor evading their block, then the case should be allowed IP user or not.  Outright dis-allowing IP's to post, just because they're IP's is straight up ABF (again, with the exception previously mentioned being the exceptions!)    KoshVorlon  We are all Koshundefined  11:09, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * No, that is not the proposal. IPs are welcome to post at AE—the proposal is to require that an AE request be started by a logged-in editor. Johnuniq (talk) 11:43, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * , I read the proposal, and again, dis-allowing an IP to post just because they're IP's, anywhere on Wikipedia, even to open a case, except if they're socks or banned users is ABF  KoshVorlon  We are all Koshundefined  16:34, 31 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Support People who bring cases here should have something to lose if it is judged that the report is not in good faith. I'd restrict filing of cases to autoconfirmed users.  Others can add their comments after the filing. Zerotalk 12:03, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support: Piling on, for the many good reasons given above. It beggars belief that good-faith IPs would even know about WP:AE, let alone know the proper procedure for filing there. In any case, they can easily create an account, or let other people know, who can assist them in this. IPs are of course human, nobody is preventing them from writing content, this will simply reduce drama. Kingsindian &#9821;&#9818; 13:18, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed, for the reasons outlined here: . There are, indeed, good faith editors who choose not to create accounts but have made useful and insightful comments at AE. I think there are about 3 of them.  To my knowledge they've never initiated an AE thread.  All the rest are people with accounts evading scrutiny.  --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:50, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support - IP's creating anonymous AE requests clearly has more negatives then positives. This is not only matter of IP user rights, it is also matter of rights of accused editors who are being dragged to AE. Most obvious reason for such anonymous requests is filing party fearing a potential WP:BOOMERANG action.--Staberinde (talk) 16:09, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support - The set of users who happen on one of the topics where an Arbitration remedy is in place, that would recognize a violation of the sanctions, that would know where to report said sanction, that were either newly registered accounts or IP editors with little edit history, that needed to file a new ArbEnforcement petition is so astronomically small compared to the overall set that I feel this rule is reasonable. I would seek one caviat that if the petitioning "editor" has a valid cause that we not close it because they didn't fill the Form 22-B cover in triplicate the right way. Hasteur (talk) 19:58, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support - IPs should have their editing priviledges on Wikipedia severely curtailed, not enhanced. Guy1890 (talk) 05:52, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support - Because we really need to make these pesky IPs know they are second-class wikipedians. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:54, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support - Of course brand new users won't have a clue what AE is. Simple common sense should apply. Jus  da  fax   08:56, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Discussion: IPs and socks
I realise now that although I support this personally, I should have pointed out that at Arbitration Enforcement we pointed out that "Arbitration enforcement (AE) is the noticeboard, set up by the Arbitration Committee and staffed by administrators, for editors to report suspected breaches of arbitration decisions. When enforcing arbitration decisions, administrators act as delegates of the Arbitration Committee and, in that role, they review the facts and, if necessary, take action." As it is an extension of ArbCom, it seems to me that we are the only ones in the end who can revised the instructions. Doug Weller (talk) 20:33, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Is there any reason to expect that Arbcom would not assent to a consensus here, assuming that one will be reached? - MrX 13:57, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * That was my thought when I voted. I expected it would take Arb to make the change, but if a large enough showing is made, you would hope that Arb would see where the consensus was, as as agents for masses, would make the change, or at least hold a public vote on it.  If it doesn't pass an Arb vote, we should be able to see who supports it and who doesn't, just as they can see who does here.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 00:05, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That's what I would expect and hope. Doug Weller (talk) 09:41, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Here's an example of where an IP brought a successful case to AE (even though the IP was quickly blocked). I know for a fact that both the editor sanctioned and the topic area are the target of an off-wiki campaign and the IP was clearly a banned or blocked editor still able to reach out to AE successfully. Doug Weller (talk) 12:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Amendement request
I've requested the committee give AE its own talk page. NE Ent 22:29, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * In the extremely unlikely event that as an IP editor I should ever need to initiate a report at AE, I would expect to be able to so, unless the page was temporarily semi-protected due to ongoing vandalism, in which latter case I would hope to be able to submit a semi-protected edit request on the talk page as with any other semi-protected page. Presumably no confirmed editor would approve a frivolous talk page request. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 15:54, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Example
There is absolutely zero reason why anyone who isn't autoconfirmed needs to edit User:Example or User talk:Example. The amount of vandalism and test posts from new users isn't large, but it is steady and there is absolutely zero advantage to the encyclopedia to allowing it to happen at all, and the posts are highly visible because so many pages link to these two example pages. So before I go to the effort of posting an RfC, could we please just decide to indefinitely semi-protect the pages? --Guy Macon (talk) 18:20, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * User:Example is already semi-protected. As for the talk page, I don't see why not that can't be semi-protected as well. --Stabila711 (talk) 18:27, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅. Semi-protecting the talk page seems eminently logical and uncontroversial. -- Fuzheado &#124; Talk 19:43, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Not sure about this. I would rather someone vandalized there than on an article. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:40, 1 September 2015 (UTC).


 * What makes you think that a vandal is going to hit that one page and stop? "Whew, I'm glad I got that out of my system!" BMK (talk) 00:51, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, although if they're caught early a surprising number either stop after a warning or get blocked after 4-6 edits. If some of those are wasted on User:Example, there's that much less damage elsewhere.  GoldenRing (talk) 04:49, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I need experienced editors to comment
Hi guys. Sorry for spamming this, but it's for a good cause. I would like to encourage editors to comment on my idea lab request here. Input would be greatly appreciated.—cyberpower  Chat :Online 20:14, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Sock abuse under protection
Hi. How do you look at this abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Biruitorul&diff=679140123&oldid=679006619 ?

The suspected sock master forced admin to defend him User_talk:Drmies

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Drmies&diff=679144252&oldid=679141844

Is there any non-involved part to analyze this case?

--220.255.3.185 (talk) 00:08, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Doesn't look that suspicious to me. was not the only one to deny the investigation . --  Orduin  Discuss 00:14, 3 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Biruitorul didn't force me to do anything. Your alternate IP/meat puppet/internet pal thought they knew better than the people running SPI. Go troll elsewhere. Thank you Orduin--but the next troll is going to say that I made you say this. Also, I just dropped off the $20 at Western Union. Y'all, what does "confirmed proxy server" mean? Drmies (talk) 00:28, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't believe that what is considered a 'confirmed proxy server' by whatismyipaddress.com is actually an open proxy, without more study. But I've filed this IP for checking at WP:OP. EdJohnston (talk) 02:45, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Where it was confirmed. Making sockpuppet reports using open proxies is never going to end well. -- zzuuzz (talk) 03:41, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Reliable Source Question
Need some other admins' opinions on some confusion I am having regarding a reference and if it is a reliable source or not. On the WBCM-LP article, I was previously using the station's official Facebook page to cite their official launch date. removed it saying it wasn't reliable since it is a Facebook page. Understandable. Later that it could be used, per WP:SOCIALMEDIA since "Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves". Harrias said while "it is still not considered reliable, but a special exception can be made for limited use of such references."

That's where the confusion for me lies. Can the source be used, once in the infobox and once in the text (citing the same thing) and still be be in line with all the various rules. I am considering taking this to GAN, so I kinda need to be certain. Thanks...<small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> Neutralhomer •  Talk  • 01:18, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I notified both users mentioned of this discussion. Just for the record, I am not upset with either of these editors.  Just contradictory information has me confused. :) - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 01:22, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Why does this discussion need to involve administrators? Does anyone need to be blocked?  Does any article need protection?  Does any article need deletion?  If the answer to these three questions is "no", then you have no reason to involve any administrators at all.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 01:47, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Better to ask the people who are knowledgable on policies, rules, guidelines and such and those people are admins. Plus, it doesn't hurt to ask. :) - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 02:00, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If that is all you wanted to do, WP:RSN exists for that purpose. This board is for issues that need to involve admins acting as admins, using their admin tools.  The harm is this is the wrong venue, and isn't suited towards attracting the best responses.  RSN is, and will do that for you.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 02:09, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Kalakannija's derogatory comments
has made several personal attacks/disrespectful-comments over the past few months and has been warned adequately. Diffs:1, 2, 3, 4 (This is a serious vulgar attack against against the other party in discussion which states he/she should be a Norwegian slave instead being a Sri Lankan. After being warned multiple times he still continue to make personal attacks. Diff: 5. He recently broke my talk page with this edit to reply to a discussion (sparked due to this warning by me) that has been archived a long time ago. I had to revert him back and comment on his talk page instead. Initially I thought I could resolve this dispute by a talk page discussion, but I'm unable to, and I have no idea what I should do next. He also claimed that I should not participate in a discussion if my nationality is irrelevant to the topic, which is ridiculous. -- Chamith   (talk)  01:46, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Have you tried inviting uninvolved editors to mediate the dispute through one of the methods listed at WP:DR? Unless someone needs blocking or an article needs protecting or deleting, I'm not sure what admins have the power to do to help you,  I agree that derogatory comments are verboten, and we should not tolerate it, but we need to separate the issues of "how to solve the dispute" versus "how to encourage users to behave civilly".  Your post seems to indicate that the former problem is the major issue, and the latter problem is the symptom of not handling the first problem correctly.  If there is a block needed, WP:ANI would actually be the proper venue. -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 02:07, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The thing is, I'm not sure whether a dispute resolution might help as this is not a content dispute rather an issue related to personal attacks. I agree that my post made it look more like a content dispute. It's just I didn't want to be rude saying Kalakannija should be blocked outright. And I'm in no position to give orders either. What I wanted to suggest is that he/she should only be blocked if it seems necessary to admins. --  Chamith   (talk)  02:17, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Like you said I'll move this whole thing to WP:ANI. Thank you. -- Chamith   (talk)  02:20, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

User RHB100 and GPS article/topic
As per WP:CBAN, I'd like to respectfully suggest that impose upon himself (or herself) an article ban on GPS and its talk page, and possible a topic ban on related articles. Several different users have tried to interact with him over the last couple of months years but he doesn't seem pleased and insists on controversial edits. It's detracting potential contributors to the article -- e.g., I'm about to unfollow that page. The situation brought by his 332 edits is vastly documented in Talk:Global Positioning System and many of its archives. Thanks. Fgnievinski (talk) 22:23, 6 August 2015 (UTC) (Pinging users who have edited Talk:GPS: .) Fgnievinski (talk) 22:23, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I have provided competent, honest, and objective criticism of the GPS article on the talk page. In proposing that the section "Geometric interpretation" of the GPS article is a disaster and should be removed, I have discussed what is wrong with the section and why it should be removed without mentioning any editor. It is important to look at the article and judge it objectively without biasing the judgement in any way by who may have written and edited the material. This is what I have done. I have noticed there has been a systematic deterioration in the quality of some of the sections in the GPS article and the Geometric interpretation section is one of the worst. This criticism is desirable since it can lead to a better quality GPS article. I have pointed out in "Geometric interpretation section is a disaster" on the talk page of the GPS article that there are statements made attributed to a reference which are in no way supported by the reference. I have pointed out that there are misleading statements which are incompatible with good quality GPS references. The "Geometric interpretation" section of the GPS article is terrible and should be removed. RHB100 (talk) 00:04, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure this is the wrong place for this discussion. I think you want WP:AIN. Having said that, I have come to the reluctant conclusion that such a ban would be best for WP. I know I would engage more at the article and on its talk page if things were less hostile there. RHB100 agreed to stay away from the GPS article, and although he has toned it down a bit, his hostile attitude continues on the talk page. Kendall-K1 (talk) 00:22, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Kendall-K1, criticism of the GPS article does not imply a hostile attitude. The criticisms I make of the GPS article on the talk page are in no way motivated by hostility. Your accusations of a hostile attitude are in no way justified. I criticize the Geometric interpretation sections of the GPS article because this section is bad. This section involves the use of a reference to justify a statement which the reference in no way supports. It is quite proper to point this out. This does not imply a hostile attitude. RHB100 (talk) 18:09, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


 * WP:CBAN says: "Community sanctions may be discussed on the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard (preferred) or on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents." Fgnievinski (talk) 01:49, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected. Thank you. Kendall-K1 (talk) 03:11, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I feel forced to agree with User:Fgnievinski. As I discussed a few months ago in my post to WP:ANI/3RR, the situation has been uniformly frustrating for years now. User:RHB100 has an extremely narrow view of how the GPS article "should" be written, and primarily reinforces it by questioning the credentials and intelligence of his fellow editors. Additionally, he has shown very little interest in familiarizing himself with wikipedia policy or making any attempt to work with his fellow editors, insisting that they are not "licensed engineers", and has no regard for the uniform and consistent consensus against his narrow view. I have essentially stopped contributing to GPS, despite GPS being the main subject of my professional work, since it results in nothing but frustration and repetitive arguments over the same topic. siafu (talk) 03:14, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I think this is the link to the 3RR report that mentioned: Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive285. Fgnievinski (talk) 13:48, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I have engaged with other editors in debate after debate. I have the view that the GPS article should be written correctly and in accordance with good quality references. I have stated my own qualifications but I have never questioned the credentials and intelligence of other editors. My focus has been on the content and not on people. We should continue to remind ourselves what is wrong with the Wikipedia article since that is the first step toward improvement. RHB100 (talk) 04:15, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


 * "Never questioned the credentials and intelligence of other editors". Really. Just a couple examples:  siafu (talk) 05:20, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, and this just in: siafu (talk) 05:35, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I make no apologies for these statements, siafu. These are honest, objective, and true statements. There is nothing wrong with these statements. The section, Geometric Interpretation, in the GPS article involves using a reference to justify a statement which the reference in no way supports. It is quite proper to point out this misrepresentation. RHB100 (talk) 17:58, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


 * As you do not regret any of the offences below demonstrates your incivility and why your long-term violation of Wikipedia's conduct policy deserves a topic ban. Fgnievinski (talk) 03:01, 9 August 2015 (UTC)


 * "Well if you people say [...] then you do not have the level of competence characteristic of a licensed Professional Engineer."


 * "I hold advanced engineering degrees from both the University of Arkansas and UCLA. I am a licensed professional engineer. I know that I am right"


 * "The fact that the equations in the Problem description are equations for spheres is certainly well known and should be obvious. Nevertheless, I have provided a detailed explanation of what should be obvious.  Authors may not always point out that these equations are spheres but this is because it is obvious."

What these people are calling hostility is valid and much needed criticism of the GPS article. I am not criticizing people, I am criticizing a part of the article which is wrong. We should never censor valid criticisms of the article. If you check the references I have given rather than the expressions of resentment of siafu, Fgnievinski, and Kendall-K1, you will see that my criticisms are valid. My attitude is based on improving the content of the GPS article. These other editors are just expressing resentment over my criticisms. We need free and open criticism of the article on the talk page. RHB100 (talk) 04:33, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

It should be kept in mind that a situation can arise where one editor is right but is in the minority. There is such a thing as tyranny of the majority as pointed out by de Tocqueville. This is the thing that we are experiencing in this discussion where these other editors are trying to censor me just because I make valid and correct criticisms. This problem should be fought against by making sure we have the talk page open for valid criticism. RHB100 (talk) 04:47, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I think the folllowing list of archived talk sections, dating back to 2010, speaks for itself: and finally: Nothing seems to have changed: persistent orthogonality to wp:CONSENSUS. Unless he gets his way, RHB100 does not back off, so I tend to avoid both the article and its talk page. - DVdm (talk) 06:55, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Talk:Global Positioning System/Archive 6
 * Talk:Global Positioning System/Archive 6
 * Talk:Global Positioning System/Archive 6
 * Talk:Global Positioning System/Archive 7
 * Talk:Global Positioning System/Archive 7
 * Talk:Global Positioning System/Archive 7
 * Talk:Global Positioning System/Archive 7
 * Talk:Global Positioning System/Archive 7
 * WP:Wikiquette assistance/archive94 (about questioning the credentials and intelligence of other editors)

The example I looked at, from the list above, Talk:Global Positioning System/Archive 7, does not show this so-called persistent orthogonality to wp:CONSENSUS accusation that DVdm makes. I look at this and I see my remarks as quite reasonable. So DVdm own reference shows that I am engaging in rational and reasonable editing and that the above accusation of disruptive editing is false. RHB100 (talk) 20:35, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I have had disagreements with DVdm. He has accused me of doing personal research when I have merely stated the obvious. Some may have gotten a little contentious and the heated nature of the discussion may have resulted in some unflattering remarks. However, we should concentrate on what triggered the complaints. And that is my writing of the section, "Geometric interpretation section is a disaster" on the talk page of the GPS article.

Here is a copy of the "Geometric interpretation section is a disaster" section from the GPS article talk page. This is what triggered the accusation of disruptive editing. This is what we should be concentrating on. Now tell me, what is disruptive in this post? Keep in mind that critical editing in no way implies hostile or disruptive editing. Some editors may be slow to see what is obvious to me. This post contains new information showing false use of a reference. Tell me what is disruptive about this post? RHB100 (talk) 20:35, 8 August 2015 (UTC)


 * You don't follow the Talk page guidelines, to start with. Fgnievinski (talk) 21:44, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, Fgnievinski, I have investigated your accusation that I do not follow the Talk page guidelines. I read the Talk page guidelines and I read the post below that I made on the talk page of the GPS article. I claim that I do follow the Talk page guidelines completely. A criticism of a section of the article and pointing out that the GPS article can be improved by removing the section is not a hostile edit nor a personal attack on anyone. I am using the talk page in exactly the manner in which the Talk page guidelines say the talk page should be used, to discuss how to improve the article. RHB100 (talk) 02:13, 9 August 2015 (UTC)


 * You don't even follow Help:Using talk pages. Not to mention all the rest -- WP:TALK, WP:MULTI, etc. Fgnievinski (talk) 02:31, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Fgnievinski, You make this trivial comment about this so-called not indenting. This shows just how pathetically trivial your complaints are. You fail to mention the dishonest use of a reference by some editor, possibly you, who refers to hyperboloids. RHB100 (talk) 20:59, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Geometric interpretation section is a disaster
The Geometric interpretation section is a disaster and should be removed. It would be more correctly titled if it were called the Geometric misinterpretation section. It looks like a forum for people to enter their favorite shape. All we need to have in the Navigation equations section is a statement of the equations to be solved as in the Problem description section and methods for solving these equations as in the Solution methods section. In the Spheres subsection of Geometric interpretation, there is a statement that the solution is at the intersection of three sphere surfaces. This is a completely misleading statement which is incompatible with the need for four or more spheres as concluded in the Langley paper and as we have tried to make clear in the Problem description section.

It is also stated in the paper,, that "GPS fixes are found as the point of intersection of four spheres centered on the satellites with radii given by the PRs corrected for user clock bias".

The Hyperboloids sub-section does not in any way enhance the understanding of GPS. The paper by Abel and Chaffee referenced does not even mention the word, hyperboloid, in any form. The Langley paper talks about the intersection of four or more spheres and does not mention hyperboloids.

For gaining an understanding of GPS, the concept of four dimensional spherical cones contributes nothing but instead only adds confusion. You don't need to know anything about four dimensional spherical cones to understand GPS and you should not waste your time on this unrelated topic. RHB100 (talk) 20:12, 6 August 2015 (UTC) ..


 * "We have discussed this several times already. See Talk:Global Positioning System/Archive 8. Kendall-K1 (talk) 20:39, 6 August 2015 (UTC)"
 * [Please note that the above line, although written by me on a different page, was inserted here at WP:AN by User:RHB100, not by me. Kendall-K1 (talk) 02:23, 9 August 2015 (UTC)]

Well what I have said before is absolute truth and what I say now is absolute truth. Although I clearly understand the incorrect and misleading nature of this section, there are some who don't seem to understand. I am here presenting the great disregard for honesty and integrity which characterizes the writing of this section. No one has ever presented good arguments why this section should be retained. I am a licensed professional engineer. I hold advanced engineering degree from both the University of Arkansas and UCLA. When you say, "We have discussed this", that is a very vague and ambiguous statement. There are several points that are made in what I have said above, you don't say whether you are talking about hyperboloids, three spheres, spherical cones or what. RHB100 (talk) 03:57, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Discussion (User RHB100 and GPS article/topic)
This looks a lot like WP:SYN and WP:TRUTH. There is substantial evidence of behavioural issues. A topic ban seems likely. Guy (Help!) 09:42, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Guy, you say a topic ban is likely. Based on what? I have done just what I have agreed to do. I have refrained from editing the article, without a clear consensus on the talk page, as I have agreed to do. I have concentrated on making clear and objective statements on the talk page in order to show what is wrong with the GPS article. I make an objective criticism of the GPS article on the talk page and you want to put in a topic ban for that. Look at the section "Geometric interpretation section is a disaster" on the GPS talk page and tell me what is wrong with that. This is honest and objective and correct criticism of the GPS article. My writing of that section is what triggered the complaint. You tell me what is wrong with that. RHB100 (talk) 17:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


 * In my exchanges with user RHB100 (s)he has often been rather insulting, not willing or able to actually discuss the matter on hand cooperatively and technically, and refusing to accept well sourced alternative views. &minus;Woodstone (talk) 11:28, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Woodstone has consistently refused to engage in a reason based discussion. He has insisted on putting material on spherical cones which have nothing to do with GPS into the GPS article. He regards any disagreement with his views as insulting. He seems to be motivated by the desire to make the GPS article confusing. RHB100 (talk) 17:04, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

''
 * Quote from the reference (my emphasis):
 * ''"P4P is the pseudo-ranging 4-point problem as it appears as the basic configuration of satellite positioning with pseudo-ranges as observables. In order to determine the ground receiver/satellite receiver (LEO networks) position from four positions of satellite transmitters given, a system of four nonlinear (algebraic) equations has to be solved. The solution point is the intersection of four spherical cones if the ground receiver/satellite receiver clock bias is implemented as an unknown."
 * No more comment necessary. &minus;Woodstone (talk) 17:59, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Well this is an obscure reference. The better quality references such as the Langley paper explain GPS clearly working with ordinary three dimensional spheres. Since it is explained quite clearly with three dimensional spheres there is certainly no need for these four dimensional spherical cones. It appears, Woodstone, is trying to make the article confusing as seems to be his habit. RHB100 (talk) 18:46, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


 * We're here to discuss user behaviour, not article content. Fgnievinski (talk) 20:23, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Fgnievinski, you complain about my edits on the talk page saying they are controversial. But edits on the talk page are quite often controversial and there is certainly nothing wrong with that. My post on the talk page of the section, "Geometric interpretation section is a disaster" is what triggered your complaint. But this is a valid criticism of the GPS article. Your attempt to stifle criticism of the GPS article is very harmful to Wikipedia. RHB100 (talk) 21:06, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Closure of RHB100 - GPS

 * I now count three of us who have been driven away from the GPS article because of this. Is there some way to expedite a conclusion to this issue? Is there some more formal process we should pursue? Kendall-K1 (talk) 02:35, 9 August 2015 (UTC)


 * WP:CBAN says: "Sanction discussions are normally kept open for at least 24 hours... If the discussion appears to have reached a consensus for a particular sanction, an uninvolved administrator [emphasis added] notifies the subject accordingly. The discussion is then closed..." I kindly request to close the present discussion, as he/she seems to meet the requirements and has commented here before. Then if he/she is unavailable, it'd seem we could request closure at Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure. Fgnievinski (talk) 03:21, 9 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I did briefly contribute to the discussion, and have been watching since, reluctant to get involved. I support the consensus proposals above. Burninthruthesky (talk) 09:41, 9 August 2015 (UTC); edited 06:21, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I've taken the liberty of filling in a request at Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure. (There's some related material at User_talk:JzG.) Let's wait and see what the admins say about the strength of the consensus. Fgnievinski (talk) 21:23, 9 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Good point. Thanks. Burninthruthesky (talk) 06:21, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Kendall-K1, I don't know what you are talking about here. But criticizing a section of the GPS article and proposing its removal so as to improve the article is the way the talk page should be used. I am very proud to be a licensed professional engineer and I am very proud that I hold advanced engineering degrees from both the University of Arkansas and UCLA. I know that I am well qualified and I know that the section, Geometric interpretation, in the GPS article is definitely incorrect and should be removed. My edits are good and I am very proud of that. RHB100 (talk) 03:13, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Examples from the talk page
Here are a few examples of things RHB100 has said on the article talk page after his voluntary restriction was imposed on 23 June:

"On the other hand if you want to degrade the GPS document make it less understandable, you may oppose the inclusion of this explanatory material. So let's find out who the good people are and who the enemies of Wikipedia are or otherwise explain your position."

"What you say, Fgnievinski, is idiotic nonsense... You don't have the competence to decide what will be taken and what will not. I don't believe you even possess a license to practice engineering."

"Siafu, if you want to be taken seriously on Global Positioning Systems, you need to go back and review the equations for a sphere in Analytic Geometry or elsewhere. Your comments indicate that you do not understand the equations of a sphere."

"I find your comment that the equations above do not represent spheres completely ridiculous. Do you actually believe that? ... It is absolutely mind boggling that you would make such a statement. Haven't you studied Analytic Geometry and Calculus?"

"We should devote our efforts to maintaining the superiority of the GPS article over the inferior GNSS article. GPS was developed by Americans using the money of American taxpayers. GPS shows American technical superiority in navigation and position finding. This should give us the incentive to maintain that same technical superiority of our GPS article over the GNSS article."

"Woodstone, nothing you are saying is of any value for the purposes of GPS, as far as I can tell. And it's certainly not interesting."

— Kendall-K1 (talk) 19:48, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

It is sometimes necessary to be honest and objective in discussions on the talk page. Several of these statements were made long before 23 June 2015. The honest and objective statement made to Woodstone was made after 23 June 2015 as was the statement about the superiority of the GPS article. The two paragraphs made to Siafu were long before 23 June 2015. According to Wikipedia guidelines that I have read, you are allowed to say that someone has made a stupid statement but not allowed to say that someone is stupid. I have followed Wikipedia guidelines in all cases. RHB100 (talk) 20:43, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
 * is correct. These quotes [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] are timestamped after the restriction of 23 June. Burninthruthesky (talk) 08:24, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Alright, this conversation with siafu was more recent than I recalled. I made the mistake of relying on memory rather than looking up the dates. But I think these remarks need to be put in context. Here is the context, "For n satellites, the equations to satisfy are:
 * $$(x-x_i)^2 + (y-y_i)^2 + (z-z_i)^2 = \bigl([ \tilde{t} - b - s_i]c\bigr)^2, \; i=1,2,\dots,n$$

or in terms of pseudoranges, $$ p_i = \left ( \tilde{t} - s_i \right )c$$, as
 * $$\sqrt{(x-x_i)^2 + (y-y_i)^2 + (z-z_i)^2} + bc = p_i, \;i=1,2,...,n$$.

Comparison of these equations with the Equations in R3 section of Sphere in which $$(x-x_i)$$ corresponds to $$(x-x_0)$$, $$(y-y_i)$$ corresponds to $$(y-y_0)$$, $$(z-z_i)$$ corresponds to $$(z-z_0)$$, and $$\bigl([ \tilde{t} - b - s_i]c\bigr)$$ corresponds to $$r$$ shows that these equations are spheres as documented in Sphere.

Since the equations have four unknowns [x, y, z, b]&mdash;the three components of GPS receiver position and the clock bias&mdash;signals from at least four satellites are necessary to attempt solving these equations. They can be solved by algebraic or numerical methods. Existence and uniqueness of GPS solutions are discussed by Abell and Chaffee. When n is greater than 4 this system is overdetermined and a fitting method must be used.

With each combination of satellites, GDOP quantities can be calculated based on the relative sky directions of the satellites used. The receiver location is expressed in a specific coordinate system, such as latitude and longitude using the WGS 84 geodetic datum or a country-specific system. RHB100 (talk) 18:27, 23 June 2015 (UTC)


 * This is essentially the exact same argumentation used before, and as before not only do the equations not, in fact, represent spheres, the sources you have cited also do not, in fact, claim that they do. siafu (talk) 22:17, 23 June 2015 (UTC)"

Here, siafu is saying that the above equations do not represent spheres which I find to be absolutely ridiculous. And I still don't know what in the world he could have been talking about. I can't understand why anybody with any kind of an engineering education would make such a statement. I then made the comments below. These comments in this context are certainly quite proper.

"Siafu, if you want to be taken seriously on Global Positioning Systems, you need to go back and review the equations for a sphere in Analytic Geometry or elsewhere. Your comments indicate that you do not understand the equations of a sphere."

"I find your comment that the equations above do not represent spheres completely ridiculous. Do you actually believe that? ... It is absolutely mind boggling that you would make such a statement. Haven't you studied Analytic Geometry and Calculus?" RHB100 (talk) 18:08, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

And this whole discussion seems to be aimed primarily at taking frank and honest comments out of context and pretending there is something terrible about being frank and honest. But telling someone they need to review Analytic Geometry is sometimes quite appropriate. But the more important aspect of human behavior, putting correct critiques and proposals for improving the article is ignored. No one has been able to point out anything wrong with the technical content of "Geometric interpretation section is a disaster" which I placed on the GPS talk page. RHB100 (talk) 18:24, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

RHB100 time too valuable for Wikipedia GPS article
I have decided that in view of the fact that all indications are that I am better educated and more professional being licensed as a professional engineer, my time is too valuable to spend further contributing to the Wikipedia article on GPS. The fact that other editors seem incapable of comprehending the fact that the section, Geometric Interpretation is a disaster and should be removed causes me to conclude that these people are not of the quality I want to continue to work with. I have been one of the primary authors of the section now called Problem description and I have written much of Error analysis for the Global Positioning System but now we have very hostile, highly disruptive editors working on GPS and I do not care to work with these kind of people. RHB100 (talk) 00:34, 11 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you for agreeing to impose upon yourself an article ban on GPS and its talk page, as kindly requested initially; your understanding is very much appreciated. fgnievinski (talk) 16:23, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Request to close AN/I sanction discussion
Could some foolhardy stalwart admin with a lot of patience and some time at their disposal take a look at closing "Hounding by Hijiri88"? The discussion has been open for 11 days, and there's been a request for closure for the past 4 days. I believe that the discussion is just spinning its wheels now, and numerous contributors on both sides of the proposed sanction have agreed that it's ripe for closure. BMK (talk) 22:30, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Please? Some sort of "decision," whether it is a decision on which sanctions to implement, or even one to seek a clearer consensus on which sanctions to implement, or, honestly, at this point, anything, would help a lot. Please? John Carter (talk) 23:54, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I though perhaps that we were waiting for most of the admins in the northern hemisphere to return from their vacations, but now I wonder if many of the most active admins were busy working on the OrangeMoody case (see below).I wish that AN/I had some way to tell if a thread had been perused by an admin, who did not think that a sanction was needed, or didn't want to spend the time evaluating the discussion, or for some other reason passed it by, as opposed to no admin looking in at it at all. Right now, the absence of a close tells the participants nothing about the status of the discussion except that it isn't closed, if there was some kind of check-off which showed that, say, 10 admins had passed on dealing with it, it would at least give everyone an idea about what was going on, and not that the thread was just being ignored. BMK (talk) 00:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Bribe being offered to the closer now. Bribe, not bride. Get your minds out of the gutter. I only offer brides to people who support some of my dreadful writing at FAC. John Carter (talk) 17:51, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Student editors
There seem to be a lot of students registering accounts just now, it being that time of year, and quite a few seem to be of the form 123456Luke (not a real example) and have links to the course they're involved in. Am I right in thinking the number is their student ID number? If so, is there some way we could point out the inadvisability of disclosing this sort of personal information when they are creating the account? GoldenRing (talk) 02:58, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * A lot of them are also using their real names which is probably not a good idea. I think this falls more on the instructor who probably told them what to use as their account name. --Stabila711 (talk) 03:07, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As may be. Is there some established channel of communication with educators?  GoldenRing (talk) 03:48, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There are the various education noticeboards Education noticeboard and Education noticeboard/Incidents although they are somewhat dead. Still, they may be useful in trying to identify who's in charge of these and if they have any wikipedia contact. Nil Einne (talk) 03:58, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I've left a note at Education noticeboard. I hope someone sees it.  GoldenRing (talk) 04:15, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If you email me the usernames, I'll see if I can track down the teacher and communicate with him. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:21, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

If the class page is already set up would it be appropriate to just post on the instructor's user page regarding the use of real names? For example, this one is already set up and ready to go and it looks like almost every student is using their real name. --Stabila711 (talk) 04:27, 2 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, that would be fine if they are already "in the system". I think it's important for instructors to communicate to students that the attachment of their name to their on-wiki work is permanent less a name change. I know from my OTRS work that a lot of people freak when they figure that part out. I'm more concerned about the possibility of students using their ID number in their username. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:35, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I haven't kept a list. But I'll see what I can dig up.  GoldenRing (talk) 05:07, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Bad news. There are over 5,500 users registered since the start of August with usernames that match the regexp '^[a-zA-Z ]*[0-9]{5,8}[a-zA-Z ]*$' ie they have some text, a number between 5 and 8 digits long, and then some more text (both sections of text being optional).  Some of these are obviously not student names & numbers, but a fair number could be.  I guess it'd be possible to query their user pages through the API to find out if they have a link to a wiki ed project page on their user pages, but it might take me a while to sort out.  GoldenRing (talk) 05:51, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

We always try to put good username advice in front of instructors and student editors before they get started, but it's pretty much inevitable that many of them will use identifiable usernames anyway. Here's the the advice we give to instructors in the training they go through before they set up a course: Training/For educators/Creating accounts. That said, if anyone becomes aware of a specific case where a student editor runs into trouble or gets harassed because their username led someone to their real identity, please let me or another Wiki Ed staff know! That's something we'll take very seriously.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 16:19, 2 September 2015 (UTC)


 * As mentioned, the educator training has a page addressing usernames. The training for student editors also links to the username policy and suggests consideration of anonymity. There's also a mention of the same in the Instructor Basics brochure. Instructors and students who work with the Wiki Education Foundation generally go through the training and receive advice about usernames.
 * Of course, it still happens that students use their real name or personally identifying information. In some cases, no amount of warnings short of an absolute requirement will deter some students from doing so. Other times, they might skip the training or they may create an account before going through the training and then not know how to change it. I think there's an opportunity in the course page timeline we should explore, adding a little more information or advice about usernames (for the part of the timeline I'm referring to, see the first week of this random class).
 * In general, I'd say the best practice is to reach out to the instructor directly. Feel free to reach out to Wiki Ed staff, too (especially if it happens that, for example, an instructor is requiring students to use their real name or if there's an unusually high portion of the class doing so).
 * I think it would be a good idea to avoid this kind of message as much as possible, though. As helpful and well-intentioned as it is, it creates a connection between the username and specific personally identifying information that many people would not otherwise have figured out. In fact, it may be best to keep mention of specific names and interpretation of their usernames off-wiki as much as possible.
 * Always good to see conversations looking out for student editors. Thanks for voicing your concerns. --Ryan (Wiki Ed) (talk) 17:44, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your response. I'm glad to know someone has done something about this.  It seems the message is not getting through, though.  As I said above, there are about 5,500 users registered since the start of August that match a basic 'Name + numerical ID' pattern.  Eyeballing these, quite a few look plausibly like they are names and some sort of ID number.  Give me a couple of days and I'll come up with a list of ones that are reasonably certain.  I don't think it will be a short list, but I'm not certain yet.  GoldenRing (talk) 04:42, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

So what exactly is wrong with being open about who you are on Wikipedia? I am and always have been. This is the norm in academia. When one pushes something they put their name behind it. In fact it is expected and we are the outballs out. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:36, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * My concern was not so much with people using their real names (which obviously many do) as using their real names, connecting it to their course and revealing what seems very obviously their student ID number. Given some of the lowlife we encounter around here, it's not hard to see someone, after a particularly nasty dispute, calling the school with, Hi, it's Luke Martin here, student number 123456 — I'd like to make some changes to my enrollment...  GoldenRing (talk) 04:38, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It is also problematic that these students probably didn't have a choice as to their usernames. The instructors probably told them what to use (whether that was their real name or their student IDs) in order to make it easier for them to identify a particular student.  People who use their real name by choice are not a problem.  People who use their identifying characteristics because they are told to do so by a third party without regards for their own privacy is where it starts to be a problem.  Students should be aware that any post made on Wikipedia is permanent and will remain in edit histories (unless specifically deleted by a revdel or an oversight).  Those that made their accounts using their real names (or IDs) because their instructor told them to should be informed of this so they can make an informed decision. --Stabila711 (talk) 04:47, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * While you may be able to infer that a known student editor's username of [optional letters][5 or 8 digits][optional letters] could be based on a student id and name, it assumes too much to say that any username that fits that regex is likely a student. In fact, I would be inclined to think it's unlikely they're students. There are a whole lot of 5 or 8 digit numbers. That regex would include everybody who included a MMDDYYYY date in their username, everybody who included a zip code in their username, etc. There are also many schools that don't use 5 or 8 digit ids (the school where I last taught used 9 digits). It may be more fruitful to look through past class pages to see if you notice patterns in usernames of people we know are students.
 * Students also aren't likely to include their id in a name they choose themselves, and the number of instructors who require specific usernames is pretty small. Every once in a while I do come across an instructor that dictated username requirements to their students. Most of the time the requirements are for students not to use personally identifying information, but I do remember one that had them use real names (no student id) and a couple others had them use something generic like classname-[001-025]. You shouldn't see that very often, though, as we would consider it a red flag to address right at the start. To reiterate something I said above, student privacy is a serious subject and if you see a class in which the instructor looks to have such requirements, please do let Wiki Ed know (WP:ENB gets fewer eyeballs than this page, but you would get a response for something like this). In addition to the general ethics of information/digital literacy (people should know what it means to be have their personal information online), there are legal and institutional policies about student "records" (a flexible term) that the professor should consider. -- Ryan (Wiki Ed) (talk) 14:49, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Student privacy is a big deal, and perhaps we should have an informational essay on it for class leaders or some such. However...  PLEASE stop discouraging people from using real names.  There's nothing wrong with the practice.  That it's not the norm does not mean it's a problem.  It in fact solves several problems.  Thanks.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:28, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Real names are fine. But student IDs are like bank account and social security numbers: they shouldn't be posted publicly online, ever. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 03:47, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually in some places it isn't uncommon for bank account numbers to be posted publicly online by people for various reasons, and there's little risk from doing so. Obviously not for for a wikipedia account username though. Nil Einne (talk) 14:25, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

That's why I said that eyeballing the list of names, a fair few look plausibly like student numbers but I'm not sure yet. As for the message I left on one student's talk page, I don't think I'm particularly bright or likely to come to this conclusion - it just seems painfully obvious. If it's obvious to me, it's obvious to others. When I get a chance I'll try to come up with a more solid measure of just how many accounts follow this pattern, but it is still looking like early next week at the soonest that I'll get more time to spend on this. GoldenRing (talk) 13:01, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents
I'm sure no one wants to read this entire thread, but someone needs to close this. If it's not closed, you'll have the same thread again in two weeks. And then again, and again. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 01:34, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * How does closing the thread stop anyone from starting it again in 2 weeks, and again, and again? -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 01:45, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Drmies was imprecise in his language; if the thread just needed "someone" to close it I would have down after BMK posted his request above. The thread actually needs an admin to close it with some variant of one of the many sanctions suggested. NE Ent 02:09, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Ent, that's why I posted here. I still think that AN is for admins, not for riff-raff and ancient, slow-moving creatures like Ents. Booyah! Drmies (talk) 03:41, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There's a specific proposal that people have !voted on, and there are alternatives suggested by Drmies and others. Somewhere in that discussion there's gotta be a consensus for doing something, because pretty much everyone on all sides agrees that the interplay between the two editors is disruptive and needs to be controlled in some fashion.  At this point, doing nothing is the worst option I can think of. BMK (talk) 04:02, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, please have some uninvolved admin close it.  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 04:17, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * , does this answer your question? There's roughly two proposals. One is to topic ban them both, which would eliminate their running into each other. The other is for a limited topic ban for the one, which would certainly lessen the chance of them running into each other. (I hope this was not too biased a reading. I'd close it myself if I hadn't proposed/endorsed one of the options.) Drmies (talk) 14:23, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Discussion was NAC'd without sanctions. I'll take bets on when the issue will reappear on AN/I. BMK (talk) 18:34, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It might be quite a while, since Catflap has told me that he thinks since yet again the admins failed to act he does at this point find it hard to convince himself to participate again, roughly paraphrased. He has also added this comment to his user page. In short, there is a very real chance that he might be gone for the indefinite future, at least from English wikipeda. John Carter (talk) 18:44, 3 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Great. Now has closed the damn thing, blatantly passing over the two proposals that were made. Good thing they're not an admin; God only knows what they would have pulled. For instance, "Catflap08 and Hijiri88 need to resolve their content disputes in appropriate venues" is real nice, but Catflap and Hijiri are under an interaction ban, so they can't do what Schonken wants them to do. Note that Schonken showed up, most likely, because they got a bone to pick with me: poor old Catflap now must suffer for it. And why? Because no admin wanted to touch this with a stick, and I can't deny that I am disappointed in my fellow admins. I totally understand where Catflap is coming from. Drmies (talk) 03:41, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "poor old Catflap" again, seriously? Do you honestly believe he's some kind of victim here? Sure Hijiri is long-winded, a little paranoid, and reactionary, but Catflap's poor sourcing put them into conflict in the first place, he ran laps through the loopholes in the IBAN and got away with it, he's been pulling this "I'm retiring" stunt to gain sympathy, and I can go on with further examples and explanation if need be. He isn't innocent in the least in this year-long dramafest.  ミーラー強斗武   (StG88ぬ会話) 04:03, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Closing discussions is clear: don't come here (WP:AN) before you tried to solve it with me (the closer).

I've got no bone to pick with Drmies. I was a bit dismayed with a WP:BITEy answer Drmies gave to a quite inexperienced user at WP:RSN, and replied in that sense on that noticeboard. Then Drmies said some nice things about the guy (on a now deleted talk page), and that was that, no residue of feelings one way or another.

Yes, I closed the "Hounding..." thread a bit different than a previous closure by Drmies with the same disputants (as quoted in the thread I closed). With all due respect, I closed in the fashion I thought would work best. If Drmies feels slighted because I didn't build my closure on their previous one, I can only say that I stepped over a lot of things I read in the thread (and other related discussions) when summarizing all that in three paragraphs. I think I caught the essence: that is: the few disparate blocks (in fact: grains) of underground that would allow to cast this in a different direction than eternal discussion.

If you want particular answers on why I overstepped this or that (e.g. Catflap08's obvious good intentions), come to my talk page and ask these questions. Only if you can't sort it out with me there should we come back to this thread at WP:AN. --Francis Schonken (talk) 04:55, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Your close was worthless: it solved nothing, did nothing to prevent future disruption, and was full of Mary Sunshine boilerplate nonsense. BMK (talk) 14:07, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Worthless in that it doesnt resolve anything but accurate given the discussion. No consensus to topic ban, no consensus to take heavier action, no consensus to do anything. As their problems are almost entirely of a content dispute nature, the problem will only be resolved when one or both are completely topic banned (broadly construed) and interaction banned from each other. Short of a complete great wall of wikipedia between the two, the problem will come back. What is *not* Schonkens problem is that consensus didnt rise to doing any of the above. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:21, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There is a consensus to do something. The supposedly bitey answer Francis Schonken is referring to wasn't bitey at all: an editor (of his own article) submitted a list of links they thought were reliable sources, and I answered that they were not reliable. Judge for yourself--and the result of that discussion is at Articles for deletion/David B. Axelrod. And my problem with the close isn't that it somehow differs from something earlier, it's that it did not reflect the discussion carefully. There were at least nine editors in favor of BMK's nuclear option--one of the opponents was me, because I proposed a milder form, which is what an uninvolved admin could have decided on, since it had support from others and would likely be supported by the nine proponents of the stronger one (and one of BMK's opponents,, supported it as well, and , while opposing BMK, supported a narrower topic ban as well). In addition, it seems that both Catflap ("good old" is rhetorical, SG88) and Hijiri supported that milder form. Finally, I see no consensus that we were talking about a content conflict. In short, it was a very poor reading of the (admittedly lengthy) thread. Very poor, and I wish an uninvolved admin had taken the time to read the thread, or to overturn this close. Pity. Drmies (talk) 15:45, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I can't speak for everyone who supported my proposal, but I specifically pointed out to what I had hoped would be a closing admin that there was considerable sentiment for a sanction that was less severe then my own suggestion, and that some sanction would be better than no sanction at all. I can't help but think that, as Drmies points out, a careful reading of the discussion would have shown that as an option many of the participants would have accepted, but what we got instead was a close that said, basically "everyone has to behave better."  Well, of course, the problem is that the editors involved have not been behaving well together, and that has been the case for quite a while, which is why some kind of action was necessary, not just boilerplate nonsense.  It was a non-closing close, which is why it was totally worthless. It didn't help the community, it didn't help the editors find their way to a way of getting along (which was the actual purpose of my proposal, to force them to find a modus vivendi if they wanted to keep editing the same subject), all it did was put a box around the discussion and leave the problem for someone else to solve some time down the line. BMK (talk) 00:44, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If admins wanted it closed properly, then they had ample opportunity to do so: but they all studiously danced around it for a week. It smacks of hypocrisy to then complain when someone actually has the bollocks to do their job for them  Fortuna   Imperatrix Mundi  12:15, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Clarifications
I tend to ignore sections of a discussion where a disputant presents his or her summary of the discussion. I've done so in the past, I've done so here. Such summaries usually don't help a closer. They don't establish consensus (if they would, a listing at WP:ANRFC would be frivolous). Note: "tend to ignore" doesn't mean I didn't read & assess them on a case by case basis, of course. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:12, 5 September 2015 (UTC) The no-consensus part of the topic ban proposals was not the breadth of the topic area where it would apply, that was established fairly early in the discussion. The no-consensus part was whether it would apply to both Catflap08 and Hijiri88, or only one of the two. All scenarios appeared equally untenable: In short, I was convinced both Catflap08's and Hijiri88's content contributions to the topic area were an asset to the encyclopedia. I didn't have to go outside the ANI discussion to find defenses of these content contributions. In that sense topic banning either of them would not be in the best interest of Wikipedia. There was no consensus on any well-defined topic ban proposal, and seeing the whole of the discussion that seemed logical as both editors proved to be an asset to the topic area. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:12, 5 September 2015 (UTC) I contend "Further frivolous postings in this sense will be responded to with appropriate short time blocks, increasing duration of such blocks if the disruptive behaviour repeats" is extremely actionable. Let me give an example of how I see this working: Now, that's how I would like this to work out: i.e. either Hijiri 88 comes to their senses and keeps content discussions to content discussion venues, either they get blocked almost WP:RBI style ("almost" as we're not talking vandalism here but severe disruption). If my closure should be rewritten in a style that makes clearer this is the actionable part of the closure, I'm open to that.
 * Disputants "preparing" closures
 * The no-consensus part of the topic ban proposals
 * 1) Apply to both Catflap08 and Hijiri88 was not borne out by any consensus, and would leave the closer open to criticism to apply it as a preventative or vindicative measure against Catflap08;
 * 2) Apply it to Hijiri88 exclusively had even less consensus: those who were adamant on applying it to both had good reasons, those who were adamant on applying it to Hijiri88 exclusively had good reasons, but there was no consensus on either. "...would likely be supported by..." (bolding added), i.e. unsupported extrapolation, would leave the closer open to interpreting beyond what was there.
 * 3) Apply to Catflap08 exclusively had even less support, but there were some cogent remarks that the case brought to WP:ANI by that editor was "lightweight" ("I fail to see a solid case for hounding", etc.)
 * Actionability of the closure
 * At this very moment tensions are rising at Talk:History of Japan. Two options are mentioned: taking the article to WP:GAR, and/or ask wider community input on the behaviour of disputants. Let's suppose does either of the following:
 * Takes it to WP:GAR: content dispute, kept on a content dispute page. Assuming comments on editors are left out of the WP:GAR listing there's no problem with such action.
 * Asks wider community input on behaviour of disputants: whatever forum Hijiri88 uses for that, the first admin that passes along closes the section where Hijiri88 brought the behaviour of disputants to "wider attention" (it is immediately clear Hijiri88's behaviour is below standard in the discussion), and blocks Hijiri88 for 6 days (their last block having been 72h). No discussion: the closure of Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive897 is clear that the endless discussion of behaviour on noticeboards *initiated* by Hijiri 88 is the part the community objects to, and the same closure *mandates* increasing blocks.

The reason I formulated it rather "soft" in the closure itself was in order to not deter productive content contributors. I went from the assumption that admins would pick up on what they are mandated to do per the closure. To make it clearer (and if needed I'll ammend my closure in that sense): any admin is mandated to do so, without reproach, including admins that previously took a stance in the discussion: the closure covers that. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:12, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to argue over the close too much and said I would respect it even though I disagree with it. It isn't like anyone else was willing. I gave my ideas on it at the end, NE Ents comments might have been a better solution but in the same vein.  I would agree there was a consensus to do something but it required an admin to really step up, and I'm out of surgery, yet having to do more manual work than I should, and not up to a protracted debate or I would have acted myself, giving a month block to both simply to give the community 30 days of rest.  The system failed well before the close but it is a difficult area.  All we can do now it seems is be quicker to simply give out generous blocks to provide an incentive for the future.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 11:56, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, I said in that thread, I'd be disappointed if there were no sanctions resulting. I'm disappointed.  I can't see how the close is for the good of the encyclopedia, or, for that matter, how a NAC was appropriate, especially after there were several requests for an admin to close it.  Wait and see what happens next time, innit?  GoldenRing (talk) 15:40, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

AE block appeal by Collect
Applicable remedy: Arbitration/Requests/Case/Collect and others, "Collect is banned from any page relating to or making any edit about US politics or US political figures, in any namespace."

Diff of violation: [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=679138211 ]

Block notice: [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Collect&diff=679173101&oldid=679163785 ]

Background: Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment


 * The edit involved had absolutely nothing to do with US politics whatsoever.  I posted no comments whatsoever on any page of the actual political BLP.  If the meaning is that I can not post on any project-space page which evens mentions anything remotely involved in US politics, I fear that such a broad interpretation would include any noticeboard entirely, and my own user talk page entirely. The sanction specifically states the edit must not be about US politics - and the edit I made was not about  politics.   If the interpretation is "any imaginable page in which anyone or anything remotely connected to US politics is even hinted at"  then I find such to be neatly absurd ab initio.


 * I ask you all to understand that such a broad interpretation, when it is clear my opinions on BLP/N have nothing whatsoever remotely to do with politics, is untenable.  I note my particular issue that MastCell, an "involved admin" if such exists, has stalked my every edit for some years as evinced by any fair use of the Edit Editor Interaction Tool.


 * My edit on the BLP/N page stated clearly "Asserting that these comments are not "political" for those following my edits and that this noticeboard is not a "political page") - the libel suit results make clear that this stuff under no circumstances whatsoever belongs in any BLP - the suit was won by Turner, and later thrown out due to the requirement of "actual malice" for a public person and not just "deliberate falsity  This is not a "political opinion" but clearly one of stating a fact under WP:BLP and anyone who supports such claims should be the one removed from Wikipedia.


 * has, for example, stated that his user talk page is also an exempt area, and it is reasonable that apolitical edits about policies on the appropriate policy noticeboards should be an exempt area, else we would still have the Kochs linked to Ilse Koch.


 * I would also note this extreme interpretation would mean I could not even opine at RfA if someone mentions a "political article" to any degree whatsoever on such a page, and that, since my very User Talk page "mentions" politics, that I am eternally estopped from using my own user talk page.


 * When such a "literal interpretation" of something results in a clear injustice, I suggest that WP:IAR applies. Collect (talk) 11:28, 3 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Appeal copied verbatim from Collect's talk page. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  13:24, 3 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Endorse block - The remedy is very clear: "Collect is banned from any page relating to or making any edit about US politics or US political figures, in any namespace". Sylvester Turner is a US political figure. WP:BLP/N is in project namespace, which is a member of the set "any namespace". There is no other possible interpretation than that Collect violated his topic ban. - MrX 13:52, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * , I'm sorry, but I have to echo the comment above. Your edit was "about US politics or US political figures, in any namespace". You may not like that interpretation but it's hard not to read it as applying to your edit, and I doubt you'll be IARed until you state explicitly that you recognize that. Sorry. Drmies (talk) 14:21, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 *  Endorse Block  - Sorry,  hit the nail on the head, your ban covers not just politics, but political figures  in any namespace.   Commenting on  Sylvester Turner anywhere would violate that ban.   KoshVorlon  We are all Koshundefined  16:10, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Endorse block I am sorry Collect, the fact is that you were given a pass on several cases near the line. Either you see the line or you don't but you have been dancing next to it and have stepped over. <b style="color:Chocolate">Chillum</b> 16:20, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Endorse block as the three above said. As on the clarification request said, it seems Collect has difficulty understanding the scope of his ban.  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) Please &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; 16:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Endorse block per all the above. BMK (talk) 18:31, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Endorse block. I recently argued against an over-broad reading of Collect's topic ban in a previous AE discussion; it's not good for the project or its editors to play 'gotcha' by overreaching the bounds of topics bans.  (Indeed, that discussion at AE ultimately closed with no penalty for Collect.)  Unfortunately, there's no such overreach here, nor was there any overarching or overriding protection-of-the-project justification – gross vandalism, serious BLP violation, etc. – in play.  Collect's edit was unambiguously within the ban's scope. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:59, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Endorse. The edit in question clearly relates to US politics. So do this one he made a couple days ago and was not yet sanctioned for.   Calidum   19:08, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Any CheckUsers around?
Please see the streak of vandal edits at Quranism, and this edit summary by User:Vaultloopb. Maybe you can find the remaining 99. The fun started a couple of days ago, it seems, with IP 146.7.41.67; seems to know more about this. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 02:18, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I just found Sockpuppet investigations/Rahibsaleem/Archive;, you're all over that. Drmies (talk) 02:20, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yep, currently taking a look. <b style="color:#151B54">Mike V</b> • <b style="color:#C16C16">Talk</b> 02:20, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * From what I've seen, it's doubtful that there are any other accounts right now. This account is ❌ to the Rahibsaleem case. <b style="color:#151B54">Mike V</b> • <b style="color:#C16C16">Talk</b> 02:28, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks Mike. Drmies (talk) 02:34, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Where to report possible paid editors/spammers for fuller investigation?
Do we have any place where we can report editors who seem to be focusing on promotional spamming / likely paid editing / advertising for further investigation? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:45, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:COIN is the place. Max Semenik (talk) 05:58, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Please delete
Uploader has been removed twice my OTRS-request from picture File:Nithya Menen Picture.jpg, please delete the picture--Musamies (talk) 10:59, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅ -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 12:58, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring
Could an admin please take a look at [ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Portal:Current_events/2015_August_27&action=history]? There looks to be a-lot of reverting going on. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:36, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I would post at the edit warring noticeboard but I cant pending on my topic ban review. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:41, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * the editors involved were notified. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:48, 4 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Drmies (talk) 17:19, 4 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I posted a note to the edit warring notice board. —Largo Plazo (talk) 17:21, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Histmerge needed
Could a knowledgeable admin (i.e. not me) please help with a histmerge of two SPIs per the request here? As a reward I will present you with your choice of wikikitten or wikipint. -- Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 16:34, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅. --M ASEM (t) 16:39, 4 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I am not a Wikipedia administrator but I am certainly interested in obtaining a wikikitten. ^__^ Regards, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Yamaguchi%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F&action=edit&amp;section=new Yamaguchi先生] 00:01, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by Nagarukhra
Failing attempts to communicate with directly regarding their continuation of disruptive editing and page moves, I am now requesting the attention of the administrators' noticeboard.

Nagarukhra joined Wikipedia in February of this year. Since then they have initiated a series of disruptive page moves without consensus, at times requiring administrator intervention to revert. The contributions overall by Nagarukhra are by and large unconstructive, unsourced, and unhelpful.

This editor has refused to respond to all 20+ messages and notifications left on their talk page since March, while carrying on the same pattern of disruption. I feel we have exhausted communication attempts and am requesting advice on how to best proceed. Regards, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Yamaguchi%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F&action=edit&amp;section=new Yamaguchi先生] 17:41, 4 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Page move history for : page move log Regards, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Yamaguchi%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F&action=edit&amp;section=new Yamaguchi先生] 17:47, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Motion: AUSC Extension
The Arbitration Committee is currently examining several reforms of the Audit Subcommittee and asks for community input on how they would like to see the Subcommittee function in the future. Because of this, the current Audit Subcommittee (AUSC) members' terms are hereby extended to 23:59, 30 September 2015 (UTC).
 * Supporting: AGK, Doug Weller, GorillaWarfare, Guerillero, LFaraone, NativeForeigner, Salvio giuliano, Thryduulf, Yunshui
 * Opposing: Courcelles

For the Arbitration Committee, -- Guerillero &#124;  Parlez Moi  02:10, 5 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Discuss this and the future of the AUSC at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard

Speedy deletion needed
Can anyone tell me why Merrill Heatter, a simple maintenance speedy deletion, has been sitting in the queue for TWO DAYS? This should not be the case, especially since the speedy deletion isn't currently backlogged. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 04:44, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No idea, but it's ✅ now. Black Kite (talk) 09:38, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

User ManofThoth using Wikipedia as a platform for self-promotion.
has been using Wikipedia as a means of self-promotion. He created his personal page, Michael_Biggins, in 2007 and has maintained it since then. For some evidence to match his Wikipedia account to his real identity, see the following page, where he talks about 'Thoth' (he is 'Blackout'): http://www.blackout.com/blackout/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000163. However, he denies that he is Michael Biggins for obvious reasons.

He's recently reversed edits made by other users multiple times for the sake of his own personal gain, including reverting changes made to his personal page (Michael_Biggins) by, calling her changes "vandalism", presumably because he doesn't like having warnings/notifications on his article. He has also recently added some self-promotional material to the Periscope_(app) article, and once again reverted changes made by other users when they've removed his additions (multiple times!), calling it vandalism yet again, purely because it doesn't benefit him.

Looking at his contributions (Special:Contributions/ManofThoth), it's incredibly obvious that he edits Wikipedia primarily to promote himself. His personal page (Michael_Biggins) also suffers from multiple problems, including lack of reliable/appropriate sources, as well as being written from a blatantly-biased perspective.

2602:306:C53F:830:3855:D8E5:F5DC:B874 (talk) 09:49, 5 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I've taken a knife to it and carved out most of the unsourced BLP problems, will keep an eye out and clean up more. I don't want to be pedantic about it, but any BLP must be sourced and non-promotional.  This isn't the worst I've seen, but it definitely had problems.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 13:47, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It's been gutted. Just like him! lol  Fortuna   Imperatrix Mundi  14:11, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * did a lot of work as well, but I wouldn't call it gutted. Most of the promotional stuff was trimmed, the unsourced stuff was mainly removed except a dead link that isn't so terribly contentious.  Basically, BLP was enforced, but nothing else was removed.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 14:35, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed, more accurate way of putting it. In the mean time though, I looked at the rest of his contributions as the IP suggested, and


 * That is one hell of a cliffhanger! Drmies (talk) 16:11, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well I won't change my name to Goohan yet... mind you can't remember what I was going to say now. Any way: the article's looking much better now- nice to see AN/I pulling it's weight eh!   Fortuna   Imperatrix Mundi  16:20, 5 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks all :) 2602:306:C53F:830:3855:D8E5:F5DC:B874 (talk) 18:20, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

What's happening here?
What do admins and non-admins see when they go here? I see the contents of a deleted page (last time deleted by me) that has no delete, history, or edit tabs. Make sense as the page is deleted but why does the old content show up? Same behavior when going there as an IP. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 00:02, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I see the same thing but I noticed a line at the bottom that says it was copied from meta (specifically here[//meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Rakibhasan786]). That page has edit tabs and all history on it. --Stabila711 (talk) 00:04, 3 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Non-admin here, I see content, but no delete, history, or edit tabs. It has a "nominated for speedy deletion notice" which says "Page edited 0 minutes ago by . Page information: deletion log • link list • delete page". DuncanHill (talk) 00:05, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, and the copied from meta notice. Seem to recall something a month or two ago about meta copying deleted articles and mirroring them back here. DuncanHill (talk) 00:06, 3 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Appears to be something about Global User Pages. Beyond that, I have no idea. -- Orduin  Discuss 00:07, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay, I made a test edit on meta and it was mirrored back here. en-wiki admins not being able to control what appears on en-wiki user pages seems not good. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 00:13, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I saw the same thing the other day. Dumb idea to do this, I don't remember the discussion on this, betting no one gave a damn what we thought about it anyway.  This is the kind of crap you get when you let engineers make design decisions.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 01:01, 3 September 2015 (UTC) I could have been more polite in stating this. I assumed it was a WMF decision, whom I was complaining about, but not so much.  Apologies to .  I'm still strongly against this, but that's not a justification for being rude. Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 13:37, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Did you know you're talking trash about Legoktm? Keegan (talk) 07:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm betting that Lego did not make this decision on his own and it would have had to been authorized by WMF because it affects every wiki. In fact, he might not have been in the decision making at all, just implementation (I assume).  No matter how it was done, it is a problem.  I assume Lego understands my comment wasn't about him personally, but about the decision making that authorized it. Regardless, it is a very bad idea due to the high potential for abuse that is easy to take advantage of, regardless of who the responsible parties are. Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 15:17, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You'd be wrong then. Legoktm (talk) 16:05, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Someday, Dennis Brown, I hope you look back and realize that you think it is acceptable to violate WP:AGF, WP:NPA, and a host of other civility policies as long as the account has (WMF) after the name. That's what you're saying, no matter how you want to paint it. It's okay, though, no one cares to enforce civility when it comes to the WMF anyway. Trash talking is perfectly a-okay. Keegan (talk) 03:15, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't remember trashing any account with WMF. They do have a history of doing things, usually with the best intentions, that negatively affect the community, without sufficient input.  Visual Editor comes to mind, as do other "events".  This change seems to give a single vector for vandalism that would affect multiple Wikis, and reduce the control (and increase the confusion) for admin patrolling these pages.  What is acceptable on one wiki, isn't on another, for instance.  So I do think it is a horrible idea to essentially transclude pages across multiple Wikis.  And it takes a great deal of imagination or hyperbole to take my statement and call it a personal attack.  Defending the program by using ad hominem and hyperbole when describing my statement doesn't change the wisdom of this change to the system. I could have been kinder, true, but it is a frustrating change with seemingly insufficient input.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 12:07, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah, that's it: meta:User:Rakibhasan786. And that's where the deletion tag was placed above it. Thanks. —Largo Plazo (talk) 00:12, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I hid the global page by creating the page again here, with an empty source. Not sure how "legal" that was, but the user's probably about to get an indef block anyway. —Largo Plazo (talk) 00:19, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Worst case you could always gold lock it but yeah I agree. English admins should have control over the English wiki.  I understand global accounts but bleed through from another wiki should probably be looked into and stopped.  The only reason I looked for the "copied from meta" tag was because the speedy delete notice was markedly different from ours.  You shouldn't have to know other wiki's delete tags to realize that you aren't looking at an en.wiki page. --Stabila711 (talk) 00:30, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Would you care to disable mirroring file pages from Commons? Keegan (talk) 07:35, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keegan, not the same. If we remove a file from a en-wiki article it doesn't appear on en-wiki any more. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 12:24, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If the file is also on Commons, yes it does. Keegan (talk) 03:15, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Please read what I wrote. If we remove a file from a en-wiki article it doesn't appear on en-wiki any more. I would have thought it was obvious I am referring to the article. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 06:42, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Keegan, and having pictures on Commons isn't all a bowl of cherries. While I agree that having one central repository far outweighs the negatives, it introduces extra steps when handling copyvios. You need to remove the picture here, warn the user here, and then tag the picture there and warn the user there. And as far as I'm aware, there's no handy script on Commons to do automatic warning and tagging. If the WMF wanted to make the MediaViewer (a lot) more useful, they should add an option to it allowing an editor to nominate the file for deletion. It would then figure out if the tag and warning had to go on the local wiki or on Commons. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 13:36, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Commons has all kinds of neat tools. commons:Help:VisualFileChange.js, commons:MediaWiki:Gadget-QuickDelete.js as two examples. Keegan (talk) 03:15, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's useful. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 06:48, 6 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Yea, GlobalUserPages are good for cross-wiki users and I love them! Very useful that I now automatically have a userpage on any project I edit indicating that my "home" project is enwiki and that I can edit all these bare pages with a single edit to my meta userpage. Of course, for projects where I'm more involved (such as enwiki), I've created a more detailed userpage. Inappropriate content can be reported/removed on meta on the global userpage or "hidden" by creating a blank local userpage to supersede the global userpage. We've had Commons file showing up as files on enwiki with the mention "this is actually on commons", global userpages are the same thing (with meta instead of commons). ☺ ·   Salvidrim!   ·  &#9993;  01:52, 3 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Re: "Inappropriate content can be [...] "hidden" by creating a blank local userpage to supersede the global userpage." That works on enwiki, but those meta pages get copied to all Wikipedias, including the ones that are closed down and read-only. I ran into this when I tried putting "if your are reading this on any page other than X you are reading a mirror. The original page is at X" notices on multiple Wikipedias. The one on Meta got copied to some Wikipedias that I could not edit. I don't understand why I can't turn off this "feature" in the configuration. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:29, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Did you read the documentation? It clearly explains how to turn it off. Legoktm (talk) 16:08, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Just create the page locally and content from Meta will stop showing up. Legoktm (talk) 16:05, 3 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Is it appropriate to have a user page for yourself that shows up in the same language on every language's Wikipedia, including the ones that are going to flag you with a "Speak _______" tag when you do? —Largo Plazo (talk) 18:40, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Overall, I'd say this was a bad idea that sounded neat to a developer-type, but serves only a small audience, meanwhile creating problems for a much larger group of people. BMK (talk) 23:23, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * My thoughts exactly. S warm   ♠  02:05, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Just chiming in here to say that users, not developer-types, have been requesting global (across Wikimedia wikis) user pages for years. As the number of Wikipedias grew and other projects such as Wiktionary, Wikinews, etc. formed, the ability to have a centralized user page has been a recurring request. This particularly true of users who venture outside of a single wiki such as the English Wikipedia. The fact that we now have global user page functionality is a Good Thing. --MZMcBride (talk) 03:35, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree, and I am not fan of the WMF's development team. This was something that has been asked for and has been provided in a (relatively) bug-free and smooth manner. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:30, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Great, users had for years been requesting a feature that may violate guidelines on individual Wikipedias (communicating in languages other than the language of the wiki). So why shouldn't the answer have been "No"?
 * Because there is no technical reason nor real legitimate policy reason to say no. Universal user pages are a wiki-wide issue and such not really subject to local policy except where locally implemented. The operative word you used is 'may'. In fact it does not in itself violate guidelines on individual wikis', that would be the fault of the person who abuses it. It is easily resolveable in the short term, and I dont doubt will be fixed in the long. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:13, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * In creating a global user page in my language that will then appear in my language on scores of other languages' Wikipedias, I would be abusing the guidelines of every one of them. So to have a global user page would inherently be an abuse by the user. —Largo Plazo (talk) 11:48, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As far as I was aware, switching on the global user did not automatically create a userpage on every other wiki and copy over the meta-page. So with global user on, you would need to actively go to the other wiki (either logging in, or already logged in via SUL) at which point it would create the userpage from Meta. If you never go to that wiki it wouldnt create a page there. If thats *not* the case, and it does copy/create a userpage at every wiki at the point you turn it on on meta, that is something that needs tweaking. Perhaps Legoktm could clarify. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:15, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Please re-read the earlier part of this discussion, which makes it clear that your assumption about how it works is not correct. BMK (talk) 01:49, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Hmm, well that could be an issue. If it *is* automatically copying/creating userpages on multiple (read *all*) other wiki's regardless of if I have been there or not: hypothetically if I created a bot to create users on meta, enable global user-pages, creates a largish user page - how long/many users would it take before the server falls over due to resource overload? Only in death does duty end (talk) 05:17, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I've never been on the Latina Wikipedia and yet --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 06:55, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

One solution would be for all admins on all WPs to automatically become admins on Meta. Happy to start a RfC regarding this if their is interest Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 04:48, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure that isn't going to fly, Meta is mainly developers and the like and they don't want less technical admins mucking about. I don't blame them really. I will refactor but echo my previous comments that this concept is problematic because of all the reasons others have said above and the loss of control and addition of confusion. That it can be "turned off" means admin have to read more instructions, and it just makes a new vector for vandalism a problem.  Making it easier to transclude across the wikis (ie: opt IN) is probably better than having it automatic and an opt OUT, since the overwhelming majority of editors don't want or need the service, and it would remove most of the risk. Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 11:43, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Dennis: That's actually been a perennial problem with new features, that they're made to be opt out and not opt in. For the life of me I don't understand why the community of developers hasn't yet cottoned to the fact that the efficiency and effectiveness of long-term productive editors is negatively effected when things change without their advance knowledge or approval.  They have a tendency to throw these things at us willy-nilly, fully in the expectation that we're all going to welcome the change, and then have to scramble when they get the usual blowback from the editing community.  It really ought to be a watchword among the developers: "When it's possible, make it opt in, not opt out."  If they did that, these problems wouldn't continually pop up. BMK (talk) 23:04, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

BMK questioning Stabila711
Who are you? BMK (talk) 01:16, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't understand the question. Who am I?  I am a user who responded to a question about a page. --Stabila711 (talk) 01:19, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You're a user who created their account about three weeks ago, and all of a sudden is all over the noticeboards with in-depth information on some very esoteric Wikipedia-related subjects. Yeah, yeah, you edited for a long time as an IP and that's how you picked up all this insider know-how - and my bfWowrother is a toadstool.  Who are you, really? BMK (talk) 01:24, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I have never edited Wikipedia as an IP, this is my only account, and I am a fast learner. A few days is enough time to figure out how Wikipedia works, let alone a few weeks.  It isn't that hard.  If you have evidence as to a previous account, or any wrongdoing on my part, I suggest you file an report.  Please don't make accusations you cannot back up. --Stabila711 (talk) 01:37, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That's poppycock, no one learns what you've "learned" that fast. So, straight up question: was your previous account blocked or banned? BMK (talk) 02:00, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Your first edit was correctly editing a complicated table. You got rowspan, templates, and bolding all right on your first try. Your 4th edit was even more impressive Gah that took me years to figure out. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:42, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Seriously? It is called copying what was already there and using the show preview button to make sure it was right before hitting save. I certainly didn't do it right on my first try but I didn't hit save until it was right so those edits are not recorded.  You both are acting like learning wikisyntax is some mystical experience that can only be mastered after months of rigorous training.  Again, I invite you to find something I did wrong and file a report if you feel that is necessary. --Stabila711 (talk) 02:48, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You've demonstrated intelligence and restraint from your earliest edits. For a denizen of the internet, that is extremely suspicious. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:50, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * While User:Stabila711 welcome. I was not complaining I was just stating I am impressed. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 03:09, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I apologize for jumping down your throat then. I tend to get a little upset when I am accused of something without evidence that I know I didn't do.  I have been a part of dozens of different boards over the years so I know to be aware of the rules and policies before posting (at least the ones relevant to the particular post).  If you want to see an early screw-up just to be sure there is this [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nationwide_opinion_polling_for_the_United_States_presidential_election,_2016&diff=next&oldid=675533460] which shows my copying what was already there did not take into account the wikilinks that had to be changed. --Stabila711 (talk) 03:48, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I regularly check the help desk and I must be honest that I had the exact same question with BMK. Your user page isn't particularly informative so some speculation might be expected. Though your edits seem entirely good faith, it is quite odd (at least from my experience) that an editor would have such an editing pattern. Usually people just go to main space to start with and slowly get access to things like Twinkle, then perhaps AWB, Huggle, STiki, then other spaces such as becoming an AFC reviewer, and after quite some effort become administrators and then start to go on the many boards on Wikipedia such as this and the Arbitration committee. It's just very rare and no one could be sure of your intentions, hence causing doubts. Perhaps you could explain on your user page to clear up the questions. Also, it is very difficult to know all about Wikipedia policies especially in such a short matter of time, so perhaps you could explain some of that as well. These are just my personal suggestions as I see that you're not very happy with this thread. That said, sometimes it would be good to just play it safe and let more experienced editors deal with sticky situations. Happy editing! The Average Wikipedian (talk) 07:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

And what do you think I should explain on my user page? User pages are extraneous nonsense in my opinion and I would rather keep mine minimal as it has no bearing on the actual work Wikipedia is supposed to be striving for. I started with the 2016 election page since I am interested in politics. I then completely rewrote forensic anthropology since forensics is what I do. I also plan on nominating that page for GA status once the merge question is resolved. The only reason I even know about these boards is because I had to report an IP that was part of Arthur Rubin's list and therefore was block evading. As to knowing the policies of Wikipedia, I don't know them all. I never claimed to know them all nor will I ever claim to know them all. However, when something comes up it is not that hard to look up the relevant policy. The WP prefix makes that pretty easy to do. Once I read the section it is also not that hard to remember it for future use. As to my Twinkle use (which is the only one of those things you mentioned that I actually use), I decided it was time I started helping clean up the various bits of random vandalism that crop up on Wikipedia. Is that wrong of me to do? Is anything I have done wrong? Have I broken some unspoken rule about being involved in an area I shouldn't be? What exactly qualifies someone as an "experienced" editor so I can make sure I stay away until I pass that arbitrary barrier? I ask again, and I would really like an answer, what have I done that is wrong? --Stabila711 (talk) 07:39, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There is no chance that this is your first account and that you just picked all this up as a truly remarkably "fast learner". Most people have trouble signing their name when they start here, let alone accomplishing the feats in your earliest edits. Doc   talk  08:05, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, there were instances of Stabila711 not signing posts on, for example, the help desk, as I can recall.
 * You seem to have missed my point quite far. I meant to suggest that it would be easier to avoid suspicions from others by explaining on your user page. I never said that you claimed to know all the policies, I just noticed that sometimes you seemed to have been a bit careless about the use of some policies (just my personal observations from the help desk). I also never said that using Twinkle was wrong, I was simply referring to a more "normal" editing career. I never ever said that anything you did was wrong. I'm surprised by your response (and a little confused). However, there is a minimum requirement of experience for many tools, including Twinkle, AWB, AFCH and Stiki. And sometimes, considering that some people pose less trivial questions requiring more knowledge about specific things, I was just suggesting that it would be better to let more experienced editors do the answering than to say something potentially wrong and mislead someone. The Average Wikipedian (talk) 08:29, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You say you're surprised by Stabila711's response, but go back and read the beginning of this thread. BMK was confrontational and accusatory. Doc9871 has just treated him the same way. Given the general belligerence he's experiencing here, it isn't surprising that Stabila711 is reacting to all this questioning of his activities with a uniform defensiveness, instead of making the fine distinction that you, perhaps, weren't actually attacking him. —Largo Plazo (talk) 08:50, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * All I'm saying is that in my 7 1/2 years here I've never once seen a brand new account be this proficient out of the gate. Your mileage may vary. Doc   talk  08:56, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I understand, but if you look closely, Stabila711 pinged me and was attacking what I said as opposed to what the others have said. I didn't think it was fair nor justified for me to have been answered aggressively, so I was surprised because I personally wasn't the one being aggressive. I was just giving a few suggestions because the situation was indeed a little bit odd and I wanted Stabila711 to understand this, and I spoke in neutrality, saying that although the situation seemed a little bit suspicious, Stabila711 did not do anything violating Wikipedia policies and that s/he could avoid suspicion by explaining on his/her user page. The Average Wikipedian (talk) 09:08, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

An experienced wikipedian would know that:
 * Per privacy_policy, We believe that you shouldn't have to provide personal information to participate in the free knowledge movement. You do not have to provide things like your real name, address, or date of birth to sign up for a standard account or contribute content to the Wikimedia Sites.
 * The best to deal with off-topic ad hominem nonsense on Wikipedia boards is to totally ignore it (at least if it's directed at you); if someone wants to have a legit conversation with you, they'll at least start by posting on your talk page, not a WP:PITCHFORKS board.
 * That written assume good faith policy, unfortunately, is often more notional than something that is universally practiced. (Corollary: any mention of AGF will soon be followed by the phrase suicide pact. ) NE Ent 12:44, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, his first edit was to create a deletion discussion - that's a typical new user thing to do. He's been here less than a month, and he already has 232 edits to Wikipedia space. He's a nooby and he jumped in to help at the Help Desk.  Still, he's got 23.6% of his edits to mainspace, which is almost three times your percentage, NE Ent, and we allow a free rider such as yourself to stay without making a significant contribution to the encyclopedia, so why shouldn't we allow an obviously-not-new-"newbie" to have the run of the place? Makes perfect sense, I guess, if you don't believe in logic and empirical evidence.  Or you're an ostrich, or one of those "perceive no evil" monkeys. BMK (talk) 23:14, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Closedmouth&dir=prev&limit=2&target=Closedmouth Indeed it is!] --Closedmouth (talk) 07:12, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Wow, one other editor did it, therefore it's "typical". How about I select a thousand new editors at random and look at how many of them started their editing life with the creation of a deletion discussion, how many do you think I would find?  If it's "typical" newbie behavior, I should find at the very least 501 of them - more really, to make it "typical" and not just above average.  Do you think I'd find 500 of them?  If not, why are you posting your specific history and calling it "typical" of a newbie, when we both know that is patent nonsense. BMK (talk) 00:31, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The lead bullet point is there because... why? Asking an account if they have had a previous account is not asking them to violate the privacy policy. That's ridiculous, actually. Doc   talk  05:15, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I wonder how many people here are expecting an apology for Stabila711 at this point...  Fortuna   Imperatrix Mundi  13:53, 3 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Competence and helpfulness are regarded with extreme suspicion by many on Wikipedia. For a newish editor to display both shews that he hasn't yet understood how Wikipedia really works. Incompetence and obstructiveness will get you the respect of many admins and more established editors. DuncanHill (talk) 14:57, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

It's quite amazing that even after the huge OrangeMoody scandal, you folks still think you're living in a libertarian fantasyland. Sweet dreams, and let me know whenever you visit reality, I'll throw a pizza party. BMK (talk) 18:41, 3 September 2015 (UTC)


 * These threads, which serve a simple purpose to interrogate someone, are extremely unhelpful. If there is some form of illegitimacy going on here, then there needs to be firm evidence for any CU or SPI to go confirming anything. All we have here is suspicion. Myname is not dave (talk/contribs) 19:12, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly BMK (talk) 20:35, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Uh, I haven't looked carefully at their contrib history but it doesn't seem to me it would apply to Stabila711. Are you suggesting it would? BTW, I should say when I first saw Stabila711 show up in the RD, and then later saw them a lot in ANI, I too thought they were probably either an IP, or a returning hopefully never banned/blocked editor. And I'll admit, the fact that they denied it rather than saying they were, or ignoring the question makes me more suspicious in some ways (although it would also be easy to say there was some history but refuse to provide details so it isn't that much more). But in the absence of evidence of harm, or some connection to a previous editor, I don't see anything to do but AGF that they are telling the truth at worse keeping an eye on them if you think they may get up to no good in the future (which frankly would seem a bad idea now that they know they were noticed). Actually, I somewhat doubt the foundation would ever allow us to run CUs solely based on the fact an editor showed up suddenly with a lot of apparent knowledge of processes etc unless there was some good evidence of actual possible problems in their behaviour. Nil Einne (talk) 17:27, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No, Nil, you are correct, the specific discussion I linked to was about making it easier to use CU for spammers, however my comments in that discussion were more generally oriented toward making it easier to get a CU run in all situations, not just for spammers. I see now that my use of "Exactly" could have been taken to mean that I thought Stabila711 was a spammer, which is not the case.  My point (badly made) was that SPI clerks should be willing to endorse a request for a CU when experienced editors point out anomalies in other editors' contribution pattern, such as with a newbie like Stabila711 being born as a Wikipedia editor like Athena bursting out of Zeus' head, with complete knowledge of esoteric Wiki-information.  The bar is too high, legitimate suspicion should be enougth.As far as the WMF goes, my understanding is that en.wiki has some of the strictest rules about using CUs, and that other WMF projects are much less restrained, so I don;t think WMF would be an issue, as long as their was a reasonable basis to take a looksee.  An editor who within 3 weeks is offering advice at the help desk, spouting off deep info on the noticeboards, and otherwise acting in a way that newbies do not generally act, is a reasonable basis for a CU check, in my opinion.  (And what's, there are scores of other Wikipedians who know precisely what I'm talking about, know that the behavior is very, very unusual, but don't take steps tp confront the editor because of the fear of getting the same kind of blowback that I'm getting here in this thread -- not from you, but from the "head in the sand" crowd.) BMK (talk) 23:21, 5 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I have tried exceptionally hard to just ignore this thread since I am a firm believer in due process and actually having evidence before convicting someone of a crime. It seems to me that denying the allegations against me makes me suspicious.  Ignoring the allegations against me makes me suspicious.  The only thing that wouldn't make me suspicious would be admitting to something I did not do.  This inquisitional witch hunt has done nothing more than try to bully someone off the project simply because they happen to take the time to read through the policies set by the community.  I have never vandalized an article.  I have never maliciously edited anything.  I have never harmed the project in any way.  If this is what it is going to take to end this nonsense interrogation, I Stabila711 give my explicit consent for a CheckUser to examine my IP address for past contributions to Wikipedia (there won't be any).  I will also gladly give my IP address to any administrator that requests it.  I invite all other editors to comb through my past contributions with a fine tooth comb.  I have made mistakes, I admit it I'm not perfect.  But I have never purposefully harmed the project nor will I ever purposefully harm the project.  This nonsense has to stop.  I refuse to be bullied off the project but if this is what it is going to take to stop this I consent to being examined. --Stabila711 (talk) 17:51, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah... I'm sure you had no idea whatsoever that under our current rules CUs will not do exculpatory "innocence" runs, with or without your consent. Good strategy, though, offering yourself up like that.  I've only seen editors under scrutiny do that, oh, several dozen times.  Must be in a handbook somewhere. BMK (talk) 23:30, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * User:Stabila711 you have just been given a large number of compliments from some very long term Wikipedians. We are all saying we have never seen a user catch on so quickly and are impressed. Nothing further needed here. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 01:35, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

please delete duplicates
User talk:BanEvasion and User:BanEvasion are duplicate to page Hemmema, please delete--Musamies (talk) 17:52, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅ and also blocked. GiantSnowman 17:58, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Odd spammer/vandal
Does anybody recognize this odd spammer/vandal that hit Asterion's archived talk pages? I revdel'ed the content because of the massive amounts of NSFW links and I blocked them for spamming. I can't figure out if this was somebody trying to do SEO, vandalize, or harass Asterion. I don't recognize it as a sock. Just curious. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 08:49, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I would consider to blacklist all those domains on meta - if they return it becomes quickly visible in the logs.  It may be that the user is the target, but in any case that stuff does not need to be (re-)used.  I could not find any other additions in content space.  --Dirk Beetstra T  C 13:20, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Comments needed
I posted a thread on ANI about personal attacks and COI editing (Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents), but up till now nobody except the involved parties have commented there. I'd appreciate if an independent editor could have a look, even if it would be to tell me that I'm being overly sensitive here, so that this can be put to rest. Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 09:15, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Standard Offer unblock request for Technophant (restored)

 * Restoring improper deletion by Cluebot. This isn't closed yet. -- BullRangifer (talk) 17:40, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Section transcluded from Technophant's talk page

 * Please do not directly edit this section; if you must reply in-line, do so on the user talk page. ☺ ·  Salvidrim!   ·  &#9993;  02:30, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Discussion: Technophant

 * Wasn't there just an unblock request here at WP:AN for Technophant? Did it get removed somehow, or am I just remembering wrongly?  Nyttend (talk) 03:25, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Check out the last bit of his above post -- there was a request for his TPA/email to be restored so he could appeal the block properly. It was successful and TPA was restored to allow him to appeal his block. ☺ ·  Salvidrim!   ·  &#9993;  03:29, 16 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't see any reason to believe that the behavioural issues that led to this block won't return. Technophant was blocked both for the topic ban violation and for repeatedly lying. I don't see anything in his unblock request that addresses the issue that he lied and lied again when he was confronted about the lies. Instead, we get a big waffle about how Wikipedia policies have shifted away from "verifiability, not truth". What would be the motivation for unblocking?&mdash;Kww(talk) 03:43, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose I'm not seeing it. The comments from Technophant in this discussion are not at all convincing to me that he's here to edit in a way that will improve the encyclopedia. My impression is that he is trying to Wikilawyer his way out of a block.  That does not sit well with me. BMK (talk) 19:58, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Too soon. There are half a dozen edits, all in the short period since Talk access was requested. The purpose of the Standard Offer is to allow people to demonstrate commitment to the goals of the project and a track record of acceptable quality contributions - a handful of edits in the last 48 hours does not do this, and the last edits before that were in May. Come back when you have several hundred uneventful contributions over a period of months. Guy (Help!) 20:28, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, you are talking about the simplewiki edits, correct? ☺ ·  Salvidrim!   ·  &#9993;  21:01, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes. That's the Standard Offer, is it not? Guy (Help!) 14:41, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * That consideration was taken out of Offer quite a long time ago. Blackmane (talk) 14:55, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * That's an interesting new use of "taken out" that I hadn't come across before. "Banned users seeking a return are well-advised to make significant and useful contributions to other WMF projects prior to requesting a return to English Wikipedia per this 'offer'. Many unban requests have been declined due to the banned user simply waiting the six months out, without making any contributions to other projects." - Standard offer . --RexxS (talk) 18:16, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It's under "Variations", previously it was part of the numbered list such that banned editors who seek to return here would invariably go to Simple EnWiki. Simple EnWiki editors raised a complaint that they were feeling like the dumping ground of EnWiki's banned users, hence it was removed as a requirement. That's not to say it's not considered but it's no longer an expectation. Blackmane (talk) 03:28, 31 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Inconsistency Although the editor makes a vague reference to a "Wikimedia child porn scandal", their previous account was blocked for one or more WP:FRINGE-related topic-ban violations which have not been addressed.  Mini  apolis  23:00, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The block was apparently related to this notice. This block was quite inappropriate: Technophant was simply remarking about his opposition to the use of "fringe" and using a commonly accepted medical concept as an example.  Not alternative medicine and not acupuncture, and unless the ban were extended at some point between the initial banning and the block, this wasn't a ban violation.  This is where verifiability, not truth comes in, if I understand correctly: he's saying (quite correctly) that WP:FRINGE is routinely used to advocate The Truth by demeaning positions that aren't widely accepted.  Nyttend (talk) 02:12, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Let me translate that: FRINGE is routinely used to advocate accepted mainstream scientific and medical positions held by the vast majority of scientists and doctors and validated and verified by more references from reliable sources that you can shake a stick at, as opposed to unproven and speculative fringe positions not accepted by the vast majority of scientists and doctors -- yes, that is quite true. BMK (talk) 06:16, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Which perfectly illustrates the point that he was making. GregJackP   Boomer!   09:14, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Sure, it's sorta like complaining that "WP:RS is routinely used to advocate VERIFIABILITY by demeaning sources that aren't widely accepted." BMK (talk) 18:35, 17 August 2015 (UTC)


 * - note that Kww was recently desysopped. Thanks.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 14:05, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support unblock request. Editors are judging too much on past editing. Technophant has convinced me he has changed and I welcome him to return to Wikipedia. People make mistakes. We are all human. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 22:30, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Changing to Strong Support. Anyone you can handle this level of criticism by others and remain cool should be allowed to return. QuackGuru  ( talk ) 16:14, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support, per QG. GregJackP   Boomer!   23:35, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support User:Technophant are you requested both an unblock and a lifting of your topic ban or just an unblock? Best Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 01:33, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I would like to see reassurances that high quality sources will be used and paraphrased going forwards as their was issues with both of these in the past. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 02:23, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * User acting in good faith. Desires another chance. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 03:23, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Conditional support, provided the Alternative Medicine topic ban remains in place and the user commits to stop "banning" people from their talk page and to be less combative. In my opinion the sock block stuck not because the logged out edits were disruptive (they were pretty much harmless) but because Technophant showed an inability to disengage from conflict. There was also some WP:IDHT exemplified by their choosing to interpret an (admittedly less than tasteful) comment as a "death threat" despite evidence to the contrary, and excessive "talk page banning". The user's statement above is encouraging, and I think they're a good candidate for the "standard offer", but I'd like to see more of a commitment to avoid the more serious problems as well. ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:55, 18 August 2015 (UTC) Also, could this not have been done with a standard unblock request? This was just a regular old block, not a community-imposed sanction. ~Adjwilley (talk) 15:58, 18 August 2015 (UTC) EDIT: Removing support based on edits of the past 24 hours, which go directly against the conditions of my "conditional support". Besides, I can't support an unblock request that attacks other editors. ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:20, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support Believing that any other bans should be raised separately, should Technophant wish to appeal, to avoid them overshadowing the central issue. Per wikipedia's blocking policy: "Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Wikipedia, not to punish users ". Banak (talk) 17:24, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support It's been long enough for Technophant to have worked out whether they are going to edit according to accepted norms. If they are, then an unblock is a good idea; if not, then reblocking won't be a problem. --RexxS (talk) 18:16, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support I agree that it's been long enough and they should now be prepared to edit under accepted wikipedia norms. I'm not aware of the topic ban on Alt med that Adjwilley mentions but if it was indefinite it should remain intact. Technophant can later ask that it be lifted. There also seemed to be somewhat of a personal dispute going on here at the time. I don't see a need for a iban but I would urge caution on the part of technophant in interactions. I'd also urge caution in any prior areas of conflict.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 19:37, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support Seems a reasonable request.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 06:46, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Support. Technophant was blocked for somewhat minor infractions. I believe the main reason they have remained blocked this long is because of his generally unpleasant disposition, ridiculous talk page banning and his zero-tolerance for criticism of his edits and behavior, resulting is some comments and e-mail that exacerbated the problems. Aside from that his editing was generally pretty good and it has been 8 months since the block, so I'm willing to give another chance.--Atlan (talk) 12:39, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Switching to oppose an unblock at time, per this edit, in which he snubs GregKaye, tells us he isn't answering questions pertaining this unblock request not because he's being evasive but that he simply won't respond to "verbal attacks", and that his block was a "silly misunderstanding". Clearly nothing has changed in the past half year. If you can't even muster a bare minimum of cooperation in an unblock request, you are not suited to edit Wikipedia.--Atlan (talk) 13:44, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Switching to oppose an unblock at time, per this edit, in which he snubs GregKaye, tells us he isn't answering questions pertaining this unblock request not because he's being evasive but that he simply won't respond to "verbal attacks", and that his block was a "silly misunderstanding". Clearly nothing has changed in the past half year. If you can't even muster a bare minimum of cooperation in an unblock request, you are not suited to edit Wikipedia.--Atlan (talk) 13:44, 23 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment. I was notified because he and I encountered some extremely peculiar oversighter behavior, where people were being prohibited from mentioning the name of David Cawthorne Haines even though all the non-British and even some of the British media were using it.  That was around October 20 and by November 10 he was blocked over a Syria-related edit.  I don't have the time let alone the patience to look up the whole history of his life on Wikipedia, but my feeling is that the breakdown in civil order here started at the top with heavy-handed oversighting decisions and that this loss of confidence in the system set the stage for any problems that followed. Wnt (talk) 15:20, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment This user was very thoughtful, kind, and patient with me when I was still learning how to navigate this site, especially in regards to censored topics and the lack of a documented policy in regards to an explanation regarding the need for the censorship. At the time, I had no knowledge of the undocumented policy of site censorship regarding hostages. In hindsight, I understand why it was done, however the lack communication from oversight (there was none) and the lack of an actual documented policy to help guide a new user of the circumstances, in combination with still learning how to navigate the site, created a very frustrating and confusing situation. This user was one of only a small number of users who actually made an effort to help me.MeropeRiddle (talk) 01:05, 20 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment I think that everyone ought to read User talk:Technophant, and consider if Technophant has addressed that issue in his unblock request. To read Technophant's talk page one has to look through the history because Technophant has in the past selectively deleted comments which Technophant dislikes (eg diff). While there is no prohibition on doing that, my experience is that editors who do that are often in denial when it comes to understanding why they have been blocked. It concerns me that in the new section User talk:Technophant (dated 18 August 2015), Technophant is reopening a contentious issue even before his block is lifted! Not withstanding my comment on Technophant's talk page at 14:13, 16 November 2014 (diff), I am therefore of a mind, that if Technophant's block is lifted, to impose a six month ISIL ban under the SCW and ISIL general sanctions, to see if Technophant has learnt anything from this block, by allowing Technophant to edit in other project areas of Wikiepdia where he is not so emotionally involved with the subject, or other editors. I would be interested to hear if any editors have opinions on such a temporary ban option.-- PBS (talk) 20:24, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It has not been my impression that Technophant is emotionally involved with the subject, if you are referring to the ISIS page, where I used to edit regularly. His edits there were predominantly on technical matters (layout, etc), not on the subject matter. ~ P-123 (talk) 19:15, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Unresolved issues In his second unblock appeal here and, with no relation that I could see to a sock puppetry case, Technophant made uncited accusation that I was hounding him. I questioned this at the time in one of the sections of comment that Technophant is shown above to have deleted.  In a recent post I again addressed the hounding claim, in what was turned into a talk page subthread to present the view that, "I would prefer for either evidence of this to be presented so that the matter be discussed or for such claim to be struck."  Technophant then framed the issue within a context of forgiveness which, in effect, is just another way of revisiting a claim of wrong.  I think this fits with the interpretation by PBS that denial may be an issue.
 * As context to this, on my own talk page another editor commented"I have had many email exchanges with Technophant about all sorts of things and am at a loss to understand why he has been as he has recently, especially to you, .."1 and "I am glad my words helped in your attempt to settle things with Technophant, but never dreamed they could be influential."2. All my edits were made in good faith and I would welcome other editors thoughts on content.  In contrast to my talk page interactions Technophant jumps into other editors conversations which in this case involved the cryptic leaving of a pain related reference to a Latin text that I still do not understand.
 * GregKaye 07:23, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Support I made this comment on a user's Talk page at the end of April this year: "Interesting that three out of four editors here no longer edit in Wikipedia, after various debacles involving them.  (1) Worldedixor - indeff blocked; (2) Technophant - indeff blocked; (3) P-123 - three-month IBAN and TBAN, now expired.  Only GregKaye - three-month IBAN now expired - still edits.  WP has its ways of driving productive editors away to the extent that they no longer wish to return."  I still hold to that view.  I think there should be no more fuss and that Technophant should be unblocked.  It seems to me that he has been given unnecessarily harsh treatment in connection with this block.  He was a colleague on the ISIS page from July last year and was very helpful to this neophyte editor.  He was also a valuable contributor to the ISIS page, dealing with technical issues in a way that no other editor could match at the time.  His loss as an editor would be Wikpedia's loss, in my opinion.  ~ P-123 (talk) 23:34, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * This was exactly what I didn't want overshadowing the unblock request, and why I specific didn't want any other blocks or bans to be mentioned here, so they can be appealed seperately. Let's focus on the matter at hand. Banak (talk) 01:23, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry the comment upset you. This unblock request has to be taken in full context, in my view.  ~ P-123 (talk) 22:51, 22 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose mainly to counteract influence of other involved editor P-123 and to present further information relating to the information above. Firstly,, who has not otherwise been mentioned in this discussion, was banned following an I think highly evolved content at User:Technophant/Requests for comment/Worldedixor 2 that I allege was gratuitously co-presented with P-123 and which I have called into question here.  In the final section of the RfC Technophant's behaviour of repeatedly refusing to answer direct questions is blatantly apparent and this is a behaviour that Technophant currently persists with on his talk page.  Editors must be accountable for the things that they do and say.
 * The IBAN between P-123 and myself came in response to a reaction of mine to an edit on the ISIL talk page with content "... Cannot justify this view, just seems common sense to me. It is also a caliphate with a caliph, whether or not this accepted by anyone else. ISIL are also terrorists by any common sense view. Any lawyer can weasel out of it, but these are all hard facts, and they have to be dealt with as such in this article. These facts should not be twisted or denied with sophistries." Not wanting to escalate drama on the talk page I raised issues privately with P-123 in this then much edited thread.  In my third post on the thread I overstepped the mark by saying "you continue to argue dirty".  Again, this wording was presented privately on a talk page, was instantly redacted on protest and came in context of substantiations presented in that thread.
 * To, I think, P-123's credit her 11:27, 13 December 2014 (as at Talk:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant/Archive 23) was redacted to remove not only the uncited accusation of the weasel out and twisted or denied with sophistries accusations and also to remove opposition to a proposal that, I think, had otherwise been entirely opposed on the basis of OR.
 * My only issue with P-123 was on the basis that I did not view it as practical for two editors to edit the same contents effectively with an IBAN in place I, for this reason, raised a number of issues at ANI, a process that we both contest should be for dispute resolution. We both had qualms in regard to the rapid closing of the case which occurred prior to final evidence being presented.
 * I can also cite efforts that I made to circumvent a difficulty that was arising between Worldedixor and P-123 at latter date and this is just to contextualise both his irrelevant mention here and the irrelevant mention of other bans.
 * None of this, however, has relevance to the current case which other editors should consider on its own merits. GregKaye 09:17, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * User:GregKaye says there "Technophant's behaviour of repeatedy refusing to answer direct questions is blatantly apparent" in the RfC. This comment has to be put in context.  The RfC collapsed because Worldedixor was failing  to answer the "charges" brought in the RfC and diverted proceedings by asking Technophant questions irrelevant to the RfC.  The RfC collapsed after that last set of questions from Worledixor on that page and was then closed down (but not by Technophant). (I might add that GregKaye knew nothing of the events that led to the RfC and his comments on it are out of order, in my opinion.)  ~ P-123 (talk) 18:56, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Again, should editors want to you can follow the links such as at the final section of the RfC in assessment of Technophant's behaviour in regard to the irrelevantly mentioned Worldedixor (whose actual misdemeanors, BTW, I am not defending). GregKaye 20:25, 27 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose - per BMK, Atlan and Guy. This editor is not ready to rejoin the community, as I see it. Jus  da  fax   02:11, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose (This is a withdrawal of previous support.) I'm rather shocked by the "Protective IBAN" request above. I got to my PC and found a ping about this among the 72 tabs(I love Firefox!) I currently have open. It's rather bizarre, considering I actually was among those requested to comment on whether Technophant should be allowed to return. I !voted for them to be allowed back. Now I regret doing do.
 * Here was my !vote to allow them back, which was seen, accepted, and thanked by Technophant:


 * I hate to retract my initial support. I extended an olive branch and was really hoping for the best. My trust was obviously misplaced. I hate to be naive, and when in doubt I like to AGF, but this repetition of former behavior makes it clear that we cannot AGF in Technophant. They still have the same basic mentality which got them blocked. (There were many other, and much more serious, issues involved in their blocks than just block evasion and socking.)
 * The repetition of the weird paranoia over a supposed "death threat" is even more bizarre. Does Technophant have a very short memory? When they first complained about my comment, I explained to them very carefully that they had nothing to fear and that my comment was obviously metaphoric. Then, when they persisted, several other prominent editors and admins also explained to them that they were wrong to persist in this way of thinking. It should be a long-dead matter and deeply buried, but instead of letting this go, they now revive it! There is a lot of deja vu over this behavior. Wikipedia will not be well-served by allowing this unbalanced (by their own admission) individual back.
 * We have a boomerang situation here. Of all times, while seeking reinstatement here, this is the worst of all possible times to immediately launch into attacks on other editors. It totally violates point number three at the top of this whole thread:
 * 3. Don't create any extraordinary reasons to object to a return.
 * Their response to that was:
 * As per #3, I'm not sure what this was statement is intended to mean but I don't think I've created and "extraordinary reasons to object to a return".
 * Well, we now have a nasty demonstration. We don't really care much what blocked users do in their private lives while they are blocked and not active here. We DO care how they behave here, and this is beyond the pale of acceptable behavior. Note that the long list of undesirable behaviors in my posted list above was very carefully worded and considered. I didn't just throw out some vague, emotional, personal attacks. Each point will be recognizable to multiple editors who were dealing with Technophant before and up until they were blocked. This attack on me demonstrates that those issues are very accurate, serious, unresolved, are currently lurking, and are already breaking out as behaviors we can assume will reoccur when Technophant returns. I therefore must oppose any return, and we may as well rescind their talk page access and email privileges once again.


 * My response here may scare Technophant into retracting their request for an IBAN, but that won't solve the matter. They have tipped their hand and we now know what they are really thinking and what they are really like. We're dealing with the same old Technophant. I was prepared to completely let bygones be bygones, AGF, and really start over with a fresh page, but this is a total dealbreaker. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:49, 26 August 2015 (UTC)


 * More observations:


 * As I look through his most recent comments during this proceeding, I find disturbing signs that he still does not acknowledge or understand his faults in this whole debacle. He says he was blocked for "a silly mistake", when it was much more complicated. Socking and block evasion were only a minor part of the problems, but since it's easier to make a sock block than a behavior block, the socking was used as the reason for the block. Actually a whole lot of serious behavioral problems were involved, and they were anything but "silly mistakes".
 * When he again minimized his problems as a "silly misunderstanding", User:PBS rightly called him on it. (Edit summary: "You were not blocked for a "silly misunderstanding."") His very unwise and revealing response was to say that PBS was "making a mountain out of a mole hill."
 * He also speaks of this AN proceeding as "kangaroo court proceedings" He is clearly not taking this very seriously, but just as something to be endured as a means to getting back here. There is no contrition or understanding.


 * Here he addresses User:QuackGuru and says that he will forgive/forget QG's past: "People should be judged for who they are now and not what they've done in the past." Yet he then requests an IBAN against me, who poses no threat and has had no interaction with him after his blocks/bans. He's not very consistent.


 * This adds more damning evidence for why he should not be allowed back. -- BullRangifer (talk) 20:10, 26 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose I will spare the closer from reading yet more prose, but in a nutshell, I simply do not trust the editor is being honest, and don't want to relive more drama when he gets indef blocked again in a month. It boils down to risk vs. reward, and I don't like the odds. Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 22:05, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Response to Technophant's Request for closure
There is definitely no consensus. In fact, some editors have stricken their  support  and changed to oppose because you have yet to show any understanding for why you were really blocked. You even attack other editors and still try to shift blame to them. This is the very worst time to do such a thing. You have really shot yourself in the foot.

By failing to respond to other editors' comments about you right now, in this very AN, including mine above, you demonstrate that User:GregKaye is right when he says that you repeatedly refuse to answer direct questions and deal with problems brought to your attention. You haven't even responded to comments above or even tried to defend yourself. Serious charges against you have been made above, with diffs and quotes, but you show no evidence that you have even read them.

Your way of dealing with such things has been (this is a very exact description):


 * to call critical comments "personal attacks",
 * to claim that editors with such concerns are "hounding" and "harassing" you,
 * then block them from your talk page,
 * then seek IBANs against them, and
 * continually refactor your talk page and delete unpleasant information so that it was unintelligible what was going on.

That's the exact behavior which got you blocked! This is not how we deal with conflict and disagreement here. First of all, we try to not get into trouble in the first place, than we act like adults and discuss things, even if they are difficult and unpleasant matters.

For the thousandth time, you are NOT in danger! NONE AT ALL! No one has threatened your life. Many editors and admins have explained to you that you misunderstood the comment originally and are now deliberately misunderstanding a metaphoric comment. Even though you misunderstood it in the beginning, I and many others reassured you of the actual meaning and that you had nothing to fear. Here is a notable one from admin User:Adjwilley to refresh your memory:


 * "Note: BRangifer's comment on my talk page was not a death threat any more than your "cease and desist" comment above was a legal threat, and I have already seen several users correct you on this point. Continuing to repeat this claim in the face of contradictory evidence is not helping your case. (It's also slightly ironic that you invoke WP:AGF in the same paragraph.)" - [User:Adjwilley]]

That you resurrect the matter is on your own head and reveals you have a real problem, one we can't help you with. Your perseveration over an explained misunderstanding is pathological, and Wikipedia and its editors can't help you. -- BullRangifer (talk) 02:46, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * @Brangifer, I think you are taking this way too far. Technophant is obviously extremely stressed and seems to be suffering from medical problems at the moment. He seems to think that you somehow have it out for him, and your extended participation here seems to be proving him right, further aggravating him. He's already done more damage to his unblock request than anybody else could have, and you've already had more than your say above. Also, with the many times your less-than-tasteful comment as been dredged up I don't recall seeing anything that looks like an apology from you. That alone would have gone further than all the free advice you've given Technophant. Rant over. ~Adjwilley (talk) 06:33, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I support Adjwilley's judgment and comment. ~ P-123 (talk) 10:34, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Adjwilley, yes, you "probably shouldn't be posting angry rants this late." Let's get some needed perspective here. If you were aware of it you wouldn't have written as you did and you would retract much of what you wrote. Here's the timeline:


 * 1) I have had no interaction with Technophant since he was blocked (except for getting that very nasty email from him, resulting in him losing email privileges). I had completely dropped any issues with him.
 * 2) When he applied for removal of the block, I was notified and posted a tentative support for his return. I was trying to help him!
 * 3) Then this whole AN proceeding started on August 16 without my knowledge. Note that I still have had no interactions with Technophant.
 * 4) Suddenly I get a ping that he's posted an IBAN request against me above. That was a shock, since I expected a favorable response to my support.
 * 5) THAT is when I wrote my long Oppose !vote above. He had provoked me without ANY cause and I responded, but only after carefully examining all his edits since his attempt to return. In that search I found plenty of evidence that he's not ready to return, is still the same old Technophant we knew from before his many blocks, and I did what we are supposed to do; I presented that evidence, with diffs, and no one has refuted it, not even Technophant.
 * 6) Then, still without having responded or interacted with me in any manner, he posts his "Request for closure" above, and in it he doubles down on his attack against me.
 * 7) That's when I wrote this response. I have only responded to his direct attacks on me. I have not initiated any type of aggressive actions against him. I had supported his return!
 * 8) Now you object, but I suspect it's because you don't know this history.

Please reconsider/retract some of what you've written. -- BullRangifer (talk) 15:52, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * @BR, I was well aware of the timeline, including a point you missed: on 18 August you got a notification of this discussion on your talk page. (Minor point, but it seems relevant between items 3 and 4 in your list.) Anyway, my issue isn't with your reaction to Technophant asking for the interaction ban, or with the substance of your arguments. I too changed my vote when he asked for an I-ban with no provocation. What is bugging me is you becoming accuser #1, creating an entire new section to counter Tp's request for closure, and this when you know that he's in a bad state and wants nothing to do with you. It's like continuing to kick somebody after they're down, when the right thing to do would be to walk away and let an uninvolved admin take care of things. ~Adjwilley (talk) 19:43, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Adjwilley, first off, I totally agree that we shouldn't kick someone when they are down. My impression is that, although he is now placing notices that he's having an exacerbation of his mental health issues, at the time he made the attacks on me he wasn't down enough to keep from making strong attacks. I responded. What would you have done?
 * If you'll look here (Special:Contributions/BullRangifer), you'll see a gap from August 14-22. That notification was on the 18th. I was on vacation and literally out of internet and cellphone range. I was in the mountains and fishing. It was a blessing to get some fresh air and take a break from internet activities. (I also caught 29 trout.) When I returned I had literally hundreds of emails to deal with and many other duties. If I even noticed that message, I chalked it up to a duplication of the other similar notification higher up on my talk page from August 10. The notification you mention had no link to indicate the location of activity, so I didn't do anything about it.
 * As I wrote above, the first thing I knew about this discussion was when I was pinged by his posting of his IBAN request. I followed the link and discovered that the old discussion was gone, the one where I supported his return, and that there was a new thread in progress. I had no idea it was happening.
 * I will take your advice seriously and will try to back off. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:07, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

I have not been the aggressor here and have only responded to his attacks. I suggest someone get him to drop his attacks on other editors and follow his own declarations that he was prepared to forget the past. He is obviously not prepared to do that, but seems to be returning here in battlefield mode. -- BullRangifer (talk) 21:07, 28 August 2015 (UTC)


 * @BullRangifer, Thank you, I think the closing admin will see it that way as well. My own hypothesis is that the stress of having this thread rolling for over a week and not being able to respond in-line contributed to pushing him over the edge (figuratively). Also, I wasn't trying to say that you knew about this new discussion and had chosen not to participate...I figured you had gotten the two threads confused, as did User:Nyttend above. ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:51, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Several times I have attempted to shorten some of my comments by collapsing/hatting them, and if successful would hat more of the longer ones, but the codes aren't working. Invariably it ends up with everything (the whole page!) after the code disappearing from view. If someone can help me, please contact me on my talk page in the section about Collapse. -- BullRangifer (talk) 14:39, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

My template editor user right
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #EDEAFF; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">
 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Per, I'm requesting further input on the revocation of my template editor user right and the discussion that ensued at WP:PERM/TE, which can be seen here. A timeline was provided by Opabinia regalis at 07:56, 5 September 2015 (UTC). Alakzi (talk) 08:24, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Give it back. Seems to be the a specialized area for Alakzi, it might allow a final dropping of the stick for him and a goodwill gesture by the community. It was a rather stressful day. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 13:23, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The request was marked as not done by . I would also oppose granting it as Alakzi has shown little hesitation edit warring on templates when they think it's "justified". --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 14:57, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "Whether I can be trusted is rather a question of whether I trust the community. I do not. I now operate according to my own principles, with little regard for community norms" sums up their editing behavior, I think. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 15:05, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I wonder why you omitted to quote the following sentence. Or provide any context. Alakzi (talk) 15:07, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Because no "reparations" are going to be made. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 15:15, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * And who's made you judge, jury and executioner? Alakzi (talk) 15:16, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "Do this or I'll act however the hell I want" has rarely worked here. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 15:30, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd give it back. Given the regrettable, and, I understand, regretted, nature of the block, it's best all around to reset things back to the way they were and see what happens.  I'm not technical, but from what I understand, Alakzi, when not under stress/upset, does good with the userright and this is a plus for Wikipedia.  Obviously it's his job that nothing happens to justify taking it away, but that's true of anyone with a userright beyond autoconfirmed. And if he screws up and winds up at an edit warring board or something, someone will take it away.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:40, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with Wehwalt. Drmies (talk) 15:57, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Drmies, why are you expecting Alakzi to change their behavior after they get the right? --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 16:01, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, what behavior? I assume they won't be edit warring because they understand very well they'll be blocked. Their attitude, and especially their attitude toward admins, is shitty of course, though partly understandable, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't get this right. Thanks Neil, Drmies (talk) 16:07, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm always happy to help people and happy to discuss my editing with others, so long as they do not attempt to exercise their authority over me. It's really quite simple. No, my attitude is not universally "shitty". Alakzi (talk) 16:12, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll take your word for it. :) Well, here's the thing. We have a hierarchical system so one way or another there's someone with some measure of authority. In the end, the community itself has that authority too. A collection of admins, some bureaucrat(s), a sufficient number of editors could yank my admin tool away from me. In your case, I have some anecdotal evidence that plenty of editors appreciate what you're doing and that your use of this tool is fine, which is why I sort of overlook some of the rhetoric. And I won't hide the fact that I admire you for having gotten into trouble over WP:COLOR, which is incredibly important and enormously underrated. Good luck with it, Drmies (talk) 16:21, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * My understanding was that Alakzi did a lot of good when they had the right and that the behaviour that resulted in it being removed was not related to template editing. Can you elaborate on how he has mis-used the right in the past, and provide some examples please? If I am incorrect about the reason for its removal or the level of benefit/disruption Alakzi having this right has resulted in then I am open to correction. <b style="color:Chocolate">Chillum</b> 16:05, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm referring to their behavior with regards to WP:COLOUR after they lost the right. As one example, have a look at the Aug 24th-26th editing history here and its aftermath., This sentiment was reinforced at the requests for permissions discussion. No idea why others aren't taking it at face value. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 16:17, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That's what I was referring to as well, except that I agree with Alakzi on the value of COLOR. Their comments afterward, yeah, not great, not diplomatic, not helpful, but to me they're minor. Drmies (talk) 17:21, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * From the issues I've processed, Alakzi can help avoid edit warring by editing in COLOR-compliant colors, instead of just removing them which other editors object to. And the comments, if they were an isolated case, could be overlooked. They're not. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 18:08, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If you'd actually processed any of these "issues", you'd have noticed that I did - indeed - edit in brighter colours; and my corrections at the California wildfires navbox were reverted twice before the other editor (Zack) approached me on my talk page and appeared (or pretended) to agree with me following a brief exchange. Later, Zack and an IP edit-warred between the non-compliant and default navbox colours; and they had both breached 3RR. The IP took to the talk page to discuss the issue, but they were blocked soon after - by none other than Neil. The day after, Zack recruited Wikimandia to resume the edit war; and I reverted her twice, for having reinstated the violating colours while discussion was ongoing. Zack got off scot-free, despite having reverted six times in total in the span of twenty-four hours, and so did his buddy. But - for whatever reason - you thought it wise to deliver an officious warning to my talk page, to which I responded in kind. Alakzi (talk) 19:25, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that the right was taken away due to a dust up that had little or nothing to do with template editing. I have seen many users go to this user's talk page for advice about templates since it was taken away, it is clear to me that the community appreciates their talents in this area. While Alakzi's combative attitude is hardly encouraging my position, I think it would benefit the encyclopedia if the right was returned. If they use the right to abuse templates, then we can remove it and block as well. <b style="color:Chocolate">Chillum</b> 16:02, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I would oppose giving the template right back to Alakzi. I'm concerned as well about Alakzi's comment about disregarding "community norms". The TE right requires users to implement the technical changes derived from consensus and stating that he or she would not follow these norms is a red flag. Our general guidelines also suggest that we should not grant this right to users who have behavioral blocks in the past 6 months. In the past 3 months, Alakzi has been blocked multiple times for disruptive editing, personal attacks, and block evasion. This behavior is not consistent with what we come to expect for template editors. <b style="color:#151B54">Mike V</b> • <b style="color:#C16C16">Talk</b> 16:13, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell all but one of those blocks were undone. Jenks24 (talk) 19:16, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No, some of the blocks were reduced in duration. That doesn't change the fact that the concerns are still there. <b style="color:#151B54">Mike V</b> • <b style="color:#C16C16">Talk</b> 19:35, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Noting for the benefit of uninvolved commenters that Mike V is the CU who responded to the original SPI. The passive-voice "has been blocked..." warrants a little more context. Opabinia regalis (talk) 19:48, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I was the checkuser who responded to the SPI case. However, I had no involvement in Alakzi's blocks. <b style="color:#151B54">Mike V</b> • <b style="color:#C16C16">Talk</b> 22:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC)


 * It is my understanding that Alakzi has only stated they would ignore local consensus in the case of accessibility issues, where local consensus is to ignore our accessibility guidelines. This is actually a stance supported by WMF policy, as the non discrimination policy from which the accessibility guidelines derive states that "It may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored by local policies." See here. Even in this area, Alakzi has taken a much more moderate approach lately, see . Alakzi is the most skilled template editor I know, whether or not they have the user right. Their use of the user right is undoubtedly a net positive for the project, something I've seen no-one dispute. ~ RobTalk 16:39, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I concur with Wehwalt and Drmies. Ultimately it's about what's best for the project and my opinion is that Wikipedia will be best served with Alakzi being a template-editor. It's also the fairest outcome because, let's be honest, it wasn't removed in the first place because of some lack of trust, it was removed because of the complete balls-up at the SPI and then further at AN. I'm sure there will be plenty of people keeping an eye on Alakzi if the userright is returned and in the (IMO) unlikely event they edit war with it, I'm sure it will be yanked quick smart. Jenks24 (talk) 19:16, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I support returning Alakzi's TE right, for the reasons I already described at some length in the permissions request. I'll add here that expressing strong opinions about the Wikipedia internal power structure should, for hopefully obvious reasons, not be grounds for withholding user rights from the otherwise qualified and productive. He was even making useful template suggestions from his talk page while blocked, which is sure as hell beyond my level of available patience. Opabinia regalis (talk) 19:48, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support restoration - Per the comments and rationale(s) of Opabinia, Jenks, Dr. Mies, Chillum, Wehwalt and HIAB above. I'm not going to recount the detailed rationales of those thoughtful editors, but I will simply say that denying Alakzi's TE rights harms the project, not protects it.  Notwithstanding some of Alakzi's less-than-ideal interactions, the SPI and sock-puppet block which led directly to the removal had no substantive basis, and therefore the SPI episode was not a valid reason for removing the TE right in the first instance.  We have hopelessly muddled these issues to get where we are, and we are only denying the project the benefit of this talented editor's skill set by not restoring the TE right.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:03, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support restoration To reiterate my comment at WP:RTE: This bit should never have been removed. The removal was done in relation to an incident which did not involve use of TE status, for a reason outwith the TE policy's list of reasons for doing so, and without community discussion. This happened at time when Alakzi was subject to unacceptable hounding. Alakzi is both one of our most capable, and most active, template editors. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:46, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support restoration - I personally believe that Alakzi being able to edit template-protected pages is a net positive to the project. Behavioural issues aside (nobody's perfect and I can sympathize with their reaction to what seems like not-necessarily-justified administrative actions towards them), their skill, technical knowledge and desire to help is something we could all benefit from. Disclosure: I declined Alakzi's request for TE restoration at WP:PERM/TE a short while ago because I still believe that undoing MSGJ's removal of the permission would've run afoul of WP:WHEEL and thus requested a somewhat broader discussion, but I personally am in favour of the restoration in question. I also want to take the opportunity to thank Alakzi for accepting to submit this for community comment at WP:AN, as I initially suggested. ☺ ·  Salvidrim!   ·  &#9993;  20:53, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As I pointed out to you at WP:RTE: MSJG invited Alakzi to reapply ("of course you are welcome to... reapply at the usual page where it will be looked at by other administrators"), so WHEEL does not apply. If you declined his request on the basis of WHEEL, then your doing so was also out-of-process. Your resultant forcing of this matter to WP:AN is utterly unnecessary and is piling on the hurt to an editor for no good reason. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:32, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Regardless, other admin patrollers at WP:PERM/TE were also unwilling to restore the user-right directly, so this AN discussion will establish the community's consensus one way or the other. Discussion is a good thing, mmmkay? :) ☺ ·  Salvidrim!   ·  &#9993;  21:59, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose - per NeilN and MikeV. The template-user right is for trusted users.  As long as Alakzi carries his current attitude of "my way or the highway", I don't believe he can be trusted. BMK (talk) 22:56, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support Seems to know what they're doing with templates and stuff, hence being given the rights in the first place. Doesn't seem to be up to anything particularly evil with regards to templates which needs to be prevented. Brustopher (talk) 23:04, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support restoration. The way this was handled doesn't reflect well on users granted far greater privileges that what we're proposing to give back to Alakzi. Mackensen (talk) 01:46, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I've dealt with Alakzi enough to know they do go work with templates. I'm definitely inclined to support restoration of the template editor right as a definite 'net positive' for the project in regards to templates. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:40, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support because en.wiki has shown itself to be indifferent to civility or following community norms when it comes to prolific maintainers and creators. Create or maintain enough content, know enough about the system (and of course make friends in high places who'll back you when you're inevitably dragged to ANI repeatedly) and you too can find yourself immune from the basic rules even if your interpersonal conduct is akin to a junkyard dog protecting its territory. tutterMouse (talk) 07:12, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Restore Give it back, not convinced by any of the oppose arguments that he cant be trusted to edit templates. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:12, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As the consensus seems to be leaning firmly towards "restore" I have now done this. Obviously there are a significant number of editors (myself included) who have reservations, but hopefully Alakzi can prove us wrong. Thanks all for participating. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:53, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b>  No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk page editing when blocked
If a user is blocked, and "Prevent this user from editing their own talk page while blocked" was not selected, they can use the "New section" tab; but are they prevented from editing their own talk page by the usual methods that don't involve starting a new thread? See the multiplicity of threads at User talk:Gothaparduskerialldrapolatkh created on and after 1 September 2015, particularly I am logged in and the one immediately below. -- Red rose64 (talk) 09:34, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm putting my money on the block duration expiring before the "technical" reason of this being resolved.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 12:34, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No idea what that user is experiencing, but in principle blocked users can edit their talkpages in all the normal ways, and other blocked users do it all the time, so either there is something decidedly irregular going on with this person's page or they are just overlooking something. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:55, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That part of the TP is certainly looking rather artistic in a Warholesque kind of way; perhaps because of that curiously long 'double sig' he's got going on.   Fortuna   Imperatrix Mundi  13:06, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Possible due to an autoblock(#6312063)? Related T17812 from way back. - 185.108.128.17 (talk) 13:42, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I wondered if tweaking the block might help, so I reblocked with a bunch of different settings (indefinite block, no autoblock, account creation permitted) and then restored the original block. But perhaps this wouldn't be enough?  Remembering that completely unblocking causes all related autoblocks to cease, I unblocked him and then restored the original block.  Let's see what happens now.  Nyttend (talk) 00:38, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Per this message, the problem persists. Huon (talk) 17:23, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify the user is having no problem editing their talk page and hasn't claimed that from what I read. The fact that they have started numerous new threads that the last few days shows that they can edit their talk page. What they claim is that they were not able to edit their "unblock" request on their talk page. I have not seen any other blocked editor have this problem so it could be hard to determine what the trouble is. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 18:07, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Had to strike through one part of this post as I had missed the message Huon linked to. However they are still editing the page regularly so IMO there has to be a misunderstanding somewhere. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 18:10, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Every single post of theirs [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Gothaparduskerialldrapolatkh&dir=prev&offset=20150831204959 since they were blocked at 20:49, 31 August 2015] has been to create a new section. None were edits to existing sections. I note two things about those posts: (i) the edit summary is "New talk section: ..." rather than the usual "... new section"; (ii) they have tags "Mobile edit, Mobile web edit". -- Red rose64 (talk) 18:42, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Just did some testing on this. On the mobile web interface users can't edit their talk page or sections in it when blocked, but they can still click Add Discussion. If they click the edit button for the page or a section they get a "you've been blocked and can't edit..." pop-up. That appears to be the issue here. Sam Walton (talk) 19:11, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Nice work on getting to the heart of the matter . Would it help to get input from the Village pump (technical) at this point? MarnetteD&#124;Talk 19:52, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:VPT created. Nyttend (talk) 20:44, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Christianity and Sexuality
The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

For the Arbitration Committee, L235 (t / c / ping in reply ) 03:48, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard

Please delete
User:HighwayResourceSolutions non registered userpage--Musamies (talk) 09:20, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It was created by, note difference of capitalisation on second letter. You can mark it . -- Red rose64 (talk) 09:34, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Paid editing template series
Just a heads up. I had already started them and after the Orangemoody sockpuppet case I completed and have added to WP:WARN a template series for paid editing and compliance with the ToU. See, , and. Tweaks are welcome.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:52, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Do we really need 4 levels of warnings for that? How about just uw-paid-or-else? :P Max Semenik (talk) 19:56, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Four levels of warning are appropriate for edits that by themselves are problematic, but not hugely. One level of warning (whether single-template like uw-copyvio, or first-and-final, like uw-vand4im) is appropriate for exceptionally problematic editing.  This is a completely different situation.  If we want warnings at all, I'd say just have two: the first being a somewhat stronger edition of uw-paid1, and the second being essentially uw-paid4.  Nyttend (talk) 20:22, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I question whether we need this at all. It's rarely clear if edits are paid, and accusing an editor of paid editing without clear proof would be uncivil. On the other hand, COIs are often obvious or claimed and the COI template covers paid editing anyway through a link to our COI policy. I can't imagine any circumstance where uw-paid1 et al would be preferable over uw-coi. Not to mention that editors accused of paid editing have no obligation to respond or risk blocking; only behavior that is independently disruptive (or proof of paid editing, which is essentially impossible to come by) could result in a block. ~ RobTalk 21:27, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This doesn't accuse and is not uncivil. The first level asks for disclosure or a statement they are not. If they respond that they are not, or provide disclosure, it ends there. All the following are in the nature of "you still haven't responded and you need to, before continuing editing". The paid editing disclosure requirement under the TOU is toothless if we don't have an enforcement mechanism before a person is caught, like Orangemoody. A link to our COI policy in the COI templates is utterly indirect. The whole page is about recommendations if one has a COI while stating explicitly 'even though all editing with a COI is allowed and all we have is disapproval', and buried among all that "we hope you will but won't stop you if you don't" is the mandatory disclosure requirement. COI is fangless because it is permitted. We run around telling people all day long you should not be editing articles you are involved in because you have a COI (though it is permitted). You should not edit directly but make suggestions to the talk page (though you can and it is is permitted). The very first time we ever had the ability to actually do anything and not mealy-mouthedly recommend something we disprove, was when the mandatory disclosure requirement came in. But we've done nothing to enforce it. Here's the mechanism for the theory. What do you mean they have "no obligation to respond or risk blocking". The opposite is the entire point.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:24, 7 September 2015 (UTC)


 * , there is also Paid-contribution disclosure, a policy that explains the disclosure requirement. Sarah (talk) 00:01, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Backlog on new merger requests...
Proposed mergers has a backlog back to 2014. MSJapan (talk) 02:35, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Help with File:Ruinruin.jpg
Will an admin please assist me with some maintenance on File:Ruinruin.jpg? I'm preparing to move the file to Commons, as it carries a free license, however there is a non-free revision present that needs to be deleted first (it was uploaded over the original at some point, then quickly reverted, however the non-free file remains in the history). If someone would delete the 2 most recent versions of the file, leaving the original version with its original summary, I could then move it over to Commons. Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but I couldn't locate a template or other page to handle this type of issue. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:32, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Done. If you feel like it, you can explain the image on the talk page and then tag the image with, but no complaint that you came here.  Nyttend (talk) 22:28, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Thanks for the assist. --IllaZilla (talk) 22:32, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Bulk userspace deletion request
Could an administrator please delete all of my user talk page archives? They were all created via cut-and-paste (and via a bot), so per my understanding it is permitted to delete them per WP:CSD upon user request (since the discussion history stays with the main talk page and thus remains viewable). Mdrnpndr (talk) 23:23, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅ (log). I'm thankful to Twinkle's D-Batch module! ☺ ·  Salvidrim!   ·  &#9993;  23:46, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Orangemoody
This post is to inform the English Wikipedia editing community that the Checkuser team has identified a very large group of socks creating promotional articles, inserting promotional external links, and otherwise editing disruptively on this project. The investigation is named "Orangemoody" because this was the first sock identified.

During the course of this investigation, evidence has been identified that this group is editing for profit (i.e., that they are paid editors). Only a few of the accounts have made any disclosure related to paid editing, and those which did failed to make complete disclosures. The investigation began in early July. Many functionaries have participated in the investigation and identification of accounts, as well as the review of articles created by the accounts. The Community Advocacy department of the WMF is also an active participant, focusing on issues best addressed by WMF staff.



It is important to note that the 381 accounts identified in this investigation are only those that were editing from the end of April to early August. This reflects the time-limited availability of checkuser data. Many of the identified accounts were editing before that time, and the nature and quality of the edits suggests that this paid editing scheme had been in place for some time before it was fortuitously identified. The WMF in particular will continue its liaison with article subjects, and will be reviewing data to determine further steps that are not directly available to the community.

The socks
There are 381 socks currently being blocked as a result of this investigation. All of the socks are linked by both technical data and behavioural evidence. The list of socks has been posted at Long-term abuse/Orangemoody/Accounts. All of these blocks are checkuser blocks. They are being performed by EgressBot using a standardized block summary and user talk page template, so that reviewing administrators and editors will be able to identify that they are part of this group. A copy of the block summary and template is posted on the page listing the identified socks. Unblock requests can be brought to the attention of checkusers; this can be done by posting a link at the SPI talk page. It will take the blocking bot approximately an hour to complete all of the blocks; if for other behavioural reasons an administrator needs to block any of the accounts in the interim, the block will be superseded by the bot with the applicable summary and template. The same will apply to any accounts that have already been blocked.

The socks all exhibit at least one of the following behavioural traits:
 * "Article creation" socks create articles in draft space or user space mainly based on submissions to Articles for creation that had been declined, or articles that had been added to article space and deleted as being too promotional.    These articles do not give proper attribution to the original authors.  There are occasional variations to this process. Most of the articles created in this way have been moved to article space; a few are still in draft or user space.
 * "Helper" socks will usually complete a series of useless edits in order to be autoconfirmed. They then continue making gnoming-type edits that will periodically include the addition of spammy external links. Some of these socks also participate in Page Curation, and they will “mark reviewed” articles created by the other socks.
 * Examples of "useless edits" include adding  or wiki-linking words like Asia and United States, or making minor formatting changes.
 * The groups are not entirely distinct and some socks have acted as both article creators and helpers.

Paid editing
Early in the sockpuppetry investigation, it became apparent that several of the articles and the individual socks were tied to deletion discussions, OTRS comments, and complaints directed at specific administrators, where allegations of either demands for payment or complaints that articles were being deleted despite payment were made. The WMF Community Advocacy team were contacted, and User:Jalexander-WMF and User:Kalliope_(WMF) have both been directly involved in working with article subjects and complainants. The work being done by this socking group is unsolicited.

The editing pattern has been identified as follows:
 * An AfC draft is declined, usually because of notability concerns or excessively promotional content. There are variations on this, including deletion of articles in article space for similar reasons.
 * An Orangemoody sock begins work on the article, usually based on the original contributor’s content, and develops it sufficiently to prepare it for a move to article space
 * In some cases, the sock will create a redirect page with the article being redirected to another topic. Most of these redirects are very implausible
 * External contact is made with the article subject and/or the original draft/article creator. An offer is made to publish the article in article space for a fee.  The person making the contact will usually claim to be an experienced editor or administrator. The names of genuine editors and administrators are often used (for example,  the names of  administrators who have deleted related material), and this has been reported to this noticeboard in the past.
 * Money is exchanged. The article is moved to article space. It will frequently be marked reviewed by another sock, sometimes with the addition of tags.
 * Some time later the article subject or person who has paid for the article to be moved to mainspace is then contacted again and advised that, for a specific monthly fee ($30/month in examples that have been confirmed), the “editor” will continue to protect the article from vandalism and prevent its deletion, claiming that they had previously done that without charge.

The use of declined drafts (and in some cases deleted articles) to identify and approach potential clients is a new wrinkle in the way paid editing is being conducted. The return to demand further money to "protect" the article is also significant, and we do have examples of socks proceeding to request deletion of pages.

The articles
The list of articles created by the socks is located at Long-term abuse/Orangemoody/Articles. This list is not considered complete; due to time constraints, there may be additional articles created by these socks that are not included here. Most articles relate to businesses, businesspeople, or “artists”.

Review of this list of articles reveals that the overwhelming majority of them would qualify for deletion under one or more speedy deletion criteria. In this specific case, however, in order to prevent article subjects from continued shakedowns by bad actors who are causing significant harm to the reputation of this project, the articles are all being deleted. It is important to break the cycle of payment demands, and to make it clear that the Wikipedia community, and not a small group of paid editor accounts, controls the content of this project. This mass deletion is without prejudice to recreation by experienced Wikipedians who believe that the subject is sufficiently notable for an article. We emphasize again that all indications are that the editing was not solicited by the article subjects.

Because so many of the articles contain unattributed material and/or copyvios, administrators are urged NOT to undelete articles or move them to userspace.

What the community can do to help

 * Review the edits of the sock accounts for quality and for spam links, and make repairs as needed
 * Review the edits of the sock accounts for any undeleted article creations. It may be appropriate to delete these articles as well
 * Continue to be vigilant for allegations of similar schemes
 * Review the list of deleted articles and consider creating new, well-sourced, independently written versions of articles about notable subjects. Some suggestions have been made  at  Long-term abuse/Orangemoody/Articles
 * A special OTRS queue, info-orangemoody@wikipedia.org, has been set up. Please feel free to refer any complaints from article subjects to this email address. The English Wikipedia Volunteer Response Team will work with the subjects, and this queue will be monitored as well by WMF’s Community Advocacy team if further assistance is needed.
 * Please be kind to the article subjects. They too are victims in this situation.

On behalf of the Functionary team, Risker (talk) 23:05, 31 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Account are all blocked: . <b style="color:Chocolate">Chillum</b> 23:31, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Bot has been de-botted and de-adminned. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 23:38, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

 * This is quite something. A big thanks to all involved in this. Sam Walton (talk) 23:40, 31 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I sincerely hope the WMF can get enough evidence to refer the case to the proper authorities. I'm not a lawyer, but this should be criminal-level extortion. "Nice article you have here, would be a shame if anything happened to it..." Thanks a lot to all involved for their work, and I feel sorry for the people who suffered financial losses through this scheme. Huon (talk) 23:44, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I concur with Huon. Legal action would be ideal in sending a message to undisclosed paid editor sock networks that what they are doing is illegal and unethical. Can any functionaries confirm if this is connected to recent cases of impersonation as documented at WP:COIN? Winner 42 Talk to me!  00:05, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, as far as I can see -- Guerillero &#124;  Parlez Moi  00:09, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Holy shit. Thank you to all involved in rooting out this abuse. I take it that the spam links can be blacklisted unconditionally? MER-C 00:03, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * To quote the above: "Please be kind to the article subjects. They too are victims in this situation." I recommend reviewing each one individually as they may or may not be relevant to the article in which they are used. There is no reason to blacklist a link to an external site if it is a valid link to have in the article. We don't want to put the blackmail victims through any more frustration than necessary. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 00:07, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Difficult, twisted, complex case. My hat's off to those determined souls who hunted down further information, making connections, helping to lay out the pattern. Binksternet (talk) 00:09, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Just noting for procedural purposes that the limited-run adminbot task was advised to the bureaucrats' mailing list and the technical function of the bot was reviewed and approved by a Bot Approvals Group member prior to the run. –<b style="font-family:verdana;color:#000">xeno</b><sup style="color:#000">talk 00:20, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I concur that I was wearing my BAG-hat when I reviewed and approved this prior to its run.  MBisanz  talk 00:25, 1 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks to all crat's and BAG members involved for helping expedite the temporary flags for the bot run. It was all very timely and I was able to test and run without a hitch. <b style="color:Chocolate">Chillum</b> 00:27, 1 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I've blocked 300 plus in a few days marathon with WilliamH, so I have a pretty good idea how big this is. We did it manually with CU and behavioral analysis, this saves over a few dozen man-hours of grueling and thankless work. Good work.  I would be shocked if the two groups weren't related, as there is only a few outfits prepared to do this scale of socking.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 00:31, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes thanks to all those involved. Your work in much appreciated. Do we have plans to prevent this from happening again / spreading? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 00:54, 1 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Just to clarify, we know that OrangeMoody was active on Upwork receiving paid editing contracts. These appear to be standard contracts, and not part of the particularly nasty process described above. I'm inclined to include them in the list anyway, if only because I can't know if there were any additional requirements per what has been outlined. Any thoughts on deleting these as well? - Bilby (talk) 01:03, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The short answer is that it's complicated. The longer answer, that offers no help at this point other than to report and document, is that the source of this particular pattern of disruption has not been identified, only the network that we have found that they are actively using. I'm confident that most of the accounts "worked" for "Orangemoody," as we're calling the pattern. As the graph shows, most of the CU evidence is clearly within a defined system. However, it's also clear that there are some freelancers that worked on other Wikipedia-related contracts whose requirements and modus operandi are outside of "Orangemoody"'s. If it's not 100% their method, it doesn't clear or assuage them of guilt. Such accounts future accounts should be held to judgement by their own merits, I think. The pattern to be 100% "Orangemoody" is pretty darn clear with research. Keegan (talk) 02:47, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I guess my emphasis is that "Orangemoody" is just what we're calling the ring, the Orangemoody account is not "the sockmaster." Keegan (talk) 02:49, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That makes it a bit more complex. My assumption was that these accounts were part of a sockpuppet ring that was blocked largely based on CU and clear behavioural evidence. Therefore the (now blocked) account that was also active on Upwork was using socks (Arr4). If I understand this, some were socks and some were meatpuppets, and I can't assume that a given account was operating as part of a sockfarm. I'll go over my notes about the user in question and see what I can tie in, but in that case I can't regard their previous work as anything other than normal paid editing, and therefore is not covered in this action. Thankyou. - Bilby (talk) 03:23, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Think of a user like Arr4 as an exception rather than the rule, as I think I noted something similar for the same account during the investigation. As the graphic illustrated, most of the socks/meats are clearly within boundaries, but there a few that are not. Keegan (talk) 03:58, 1 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Wow, just.... wow. I too extend my thanks to all the functionaries and WMF people involved, and I would also urge WMF legal to strongly consider pressing charges is that is feasible.  I feel as though we really need to draw a much harder line regarding paid editing, if not to totally ban it, at least to put some teeth into our disclosure requirements.  I know that wouldn't have stopped this from happening, but no rule can stop someone who really wants to break it (I believe people are still being prosecuted for blackmail and running Ponzi schemes and so on, despite they're being illegal).I would really like to know if, in the opinion of the people involved in this investigation, you have the tools that you need to stop this from happening again. I believe Philippe mentioned a while back that when he was at AOL he had much better tools to deal with this kind of thing - what is preventing us from having those same kinds of tools, and what will it take to get them? BMK (talk) 01:28, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * User:Beyond My Ken if we ban the specific type of paid editing that takes place via Upworks and similar sites, Upworks states that they will take down all Wikipedia related jobs without us needing to ask individually. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 01:43, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Doc: That sounds like it would be a step forward, and doable. BMK (talk) 01:48, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Much of that was because AOL is an internet service provider -- they had access to more data than we do (e.g. addresses to send bills to), and had more resources than WMF Legal. At the very least, we can lobby for things like T5233 and T106930 from the Community Tech team. Further additions to blocking tools may require privacy trade-offs and modification of the privacy policy (e.g. requesting for MediaWiki to collect device IDs). MER-C 02:43, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That's exactly correct, MER-C. AOL had a suite of tools we could never have, because we don't have/don't want/would refuse access to the level of data that they collected.  Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 06:55, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks for the clarification - but is there anything that can be done to beef up the tools available, within the constraints acceptable to the WMF? BMK (talk) 20:49, 2 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Remember, WP does not have a policy against paid editing. So, the only violation of WP policy here appears to be sockpuppeting.  Correct?  So, how many individuals have been identified as operating these sock accounts? Cla68 (talk) 01:32, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * We have a policy that has requirements for paid editing, requirements that I am pretty sure were not met. <b style="color:Chocolate">Chillum</b> 01:41, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * (ecx2) The TOU requires complete disclosure from all paid editors, and it says right in the second paragraph of this report that only a small portion of them did that, so the others are all in violation of the terms of service. Please don't try to minimize what amounts to Wikipedia being used as a basis for extortion.  You OK with that, Cla68, you good with Wikipedia being used to extort money from people? BMK (talk) 01:45, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Who was extorting money? All they said was that they would help keep the articles looking good for a fee.  That's not extortion. Cla68 (talk) 07:56, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Except this sock farm would actually seek the deletion of its own articles when clients didn't pay up. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:15, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * In principle we can't know how many actual humans were behind the 381 accounts. And even if there hadn't been any explicit policy violations, the kind of extortion this sockfarm was carrying out calls for an IAR block regardless. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:44, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Our rules are clear "These Terms of Use prohibit engaging in deceptive activities, including misrepresentation of affiliation, impersonation, and fraud. As part of these obligations, you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation." And yes many of them were broke. And yes some of us would have acted earlier if we would have had clearer/stronger rules in place.
 * This user was clearly a paid editor months before this issue.  Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 01:50, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * COIN needs to get together and figure out a way to enforce disclosure or block the user in question. Arr4 had 3 different COIN threads about them but no action was ever taken until now. Winner 42 Talk to me!  02:30, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Per Arr4's talk page, they are active on more than a few other Wikipedia sites. Has this information been sent over to them?  While some of them have other policies related to paid editing, the extortion aspects would alarm most other sites.  Ravensfire  (talk) 02:45, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes I have come across a number of paid editors who work across multiple languages. Their is always so much to do here that I rarely get to other languages. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 02:52, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There are extensive violations of the TOU there. Frankly, disruptive sockpuppeting is the least of this person's problems.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 02:01, 1 September 2015 (UTC).
 * This is, of course, the logical consequence of WMF wanting to have both a "registration not required" rule and a "no paid editing" rule. They really ought to pick one because trying to have both simply isn't tenable. It's not my intent to diminish the efforts of those who volunteered to track these folks down -- it's really appreciated -- but given the WMF's fantasy they can have it both ways it's ultimately a Sisyphean task. NE Ent 02:01, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * strongly not wearing WMF hat NE Ent, "registration not required" is an English Wikipedia community ideal, enshrined well before the Wikimedia Foundation was ever established. Wikis, in principle, are meant to be free and open for anyone to edit. If you think registration should be required to edit, I highly encourage you to start a request for comment and see how the community feels about the subject before pointing fingers. It's also a red herring because these articles and edits were largely created with accounts and took the time to meet all the requirements to become autoconfirmed on the tech side, and participated in the community enough to generally not be initially shut down. The only people to blame here are the actual ones behind the fraud/extortion/whatever. Keegan (talk) 02:58, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I have put together 6 ideas here Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 03:15, 1 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Many thanks to all those involved in this difficult task. Excellent work. Johnuniq (talk) 03:50, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * In order for people to protect their anonymity and private details, they cannot disclose their paid affiliations. I notice that the TOU is posted in Wikimedia space, not WP space.  Again, I'm not seeing any legal violations here.  The only violation I'm seeing is running a massive sockfarm.  Saying there was "extortion" is a gross exaggeration. Cla68 (talk) 08:01, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The WMF terms of use apply to all WMF properties, including Wikipedia. Guy (Help!) 08:42, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, this should be clear from the fact every time you edit you should see the "By clicking the "Save page" button, you agree to the Terms of Use". And everytime you view a page, at least on the desktop site, you see "By using this site, you agree to the Terms of Use". The idea there wasn't exortion is just bizzare. Does Cla68 also believe that when criminal gangs ask for "protection" money to keep a business "safe" and causes damage to the property or persons involved when they don't pay up as an incentive for everyone to pay "protection" money aren't extorting the business? Nil Einne (talk) 13:47, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, there's WP:PCD in WP space. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 13:31, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Nil Einne, it isn't extortion, because there is no negative consequences if the customers don't pay for the service. Their article gets deleted?  Big deal.  They are also free to edit the articles themselves, no one is stopping them.  These sockpuppets were building articles that handn't previously existed.  In other words, they were actually improving the 'pedia, but WP admins are now deleting them all!  WP is one strange place to be trumpeting this investigation as some kind of huge victory. Cla68 (talk) 22:50, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * By definition, extortion is "a criminal offense of obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion." Telling someone, "You have to pay me or this article gets deleted," very clearly fits that description. From the point of view of the person being told that, it's definitely a negative consequence. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 23:38, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Also note, their promises to prevent articles from being deleted do not seem to have worked out too well. Outright fraud? Choor monster (talk) 18:09, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * BTW, it was a good job uncovering this sockfarm. Cla68 (talk) 22:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That's clearly nonsense. Obviously many people think losing their article (or having it vandalised, although I'm not sure if there's any evidence OrangeMoody was carrying out vandalism to punish those who didn't pay) is a negative consequence, otherwise they wouldn't be paying the money. And whoever is doing the extortion is an idiot because they're asking for money for something which no one is going to pay, because not paying isn't liable to lead to any negative consequence (even though we know they did get paid, and this has been going on for long enough that it must have been worth it to them). Frankly, I don't understand how anyone who has any resonable experience with wikipedia can say that. The reason why there is so much paid editing and businesses and sometimes even individuals wanting articles (or changes to their articles) is because many of them do in fact see wikipedia as a genuine big deal, and a good article can make a big difference to them. Also, they couldn't simply edit the article. For starters, if they wanted to do so they would have to obey the TOU (which I hope you now understand is binding on everyone editing or using wikipedia, including you) which means they would have to declare who they are. Technically of course they've paid someone who was violating the TOU, but from what I've read, the person or people behind Orangemoody approached companies who didn't really have time to try and understand all that.  Which underlies the other point, declaring who they are is only the start, they then have to try to understand how to actually edit wikipedia, without getting in trouble for promotionally editing, NPOV violations etc, which isn't easy. In fact, once they had understood all that editing wikipedia entails, they'd probably realise they shouldn't edit the article at all, but simply make proposals to talk pages.  Which would then lead to the problem that some random small company making random suggestions will often be ignored since many volunteers won't be bothered dealing with that. And of course, they can't make suggestions when the article has already been deleted, or will be. They could try to stop it being deleted, but the request of the company isn't likely to stop the deletion in many cases, and similarly it would be difficult for them to get an undeletion. (Perhaps if they'd mentioned the extortion attempt stuff would have happened, the fact we only found out about this recently is as I said evidence of the success, since clearly enough people were confused and simply paying.)  They could make suggestions for a new article, but that entails a lot of work, for something which is likely to amount to nothing, because if getting changes to an existing article from a random small company is hard, getting a fresh article from volunteer efforts is often next to impossible.  To be honest, I'm not sure the relevance of having other options any way. If the mafia asks someone for protection money, the business could just suffer the consequences and try to rebuild. In much of the developed world, and even some parts of the developing world, they could hire a very expensive legal security firm to protect them. They could just go to the police and do their best to protect themselves. They have other options, but the protection money request is still nearly always an extortion attempt. Not that I'm saying the mafia analogy is perfect, for starters, although I mentioned it I'm not aware there was any neigbourly effect here, like OrangeMoody saying, look what happened to company Z when they didn't pay. Also there isn't really a comparison to the police etc, and the consequences, even if still negative are clearly far less hence why the protection money demands were far less. Still it doesn't mean it isn't extortion.  Nil Einne (talk) 03:37, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Calling it extortion is an overstatement. Extortion would be a demand for money in return for not doing something damaging. These socks were engaged in aggressive business practices, more like "sampling" than extortion. I don't approve of paid editing in the least, but let's not make this something it wasn't. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:26, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That's just splitting hairs. Po-tay-toe, po-tah-toe, if you will. It amounts to the same thing, and "sampling" (as you call it) would fall under extortion as far as a crin=minal offense. "Give us money or we will delete/vandalize/etc. your Wikipedia article" qualifies as extortion, even under the broadest application of the term. It is not an overstatement in the least. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 05:54, 6 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Kudos to the team that carried out this investigation. Beyond disbanding the culprits, a legal action deterrent would do the community a lot of good. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#ADFF2F 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#01796F -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000"> —M@sssly ✉  08:16, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Great work there. I would consider the work of the socks to come under extortion or trying to obtain money by false pretences - convincing editors that they need to pay to get articles up on Wikipedia. I had no idea that there was all this going on behind a discussion on my talk page. I wish I had... Peridon (talk) 08:35, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you to Risker and colleagues for the excellent post on this incident - it's really well written, and does a great job of explaining what's happened and what's going on. Nick-D (talk) 08:54, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I have been looking through the accounts that have been blocked. Most seem like they could be socks, though I'm not sure that the edits of User:Arr4 fit the pattern. Most of the accounts I've looked at edit only English Wikipedia, and occasionally upload some images to Commons. Arr4 looks like they might have been caught in the crossfire. They have edits to a whole load of different wikis including Wikisource, Wikiquote and Wikibooks in languages like Bengali and Simple English and so on. I'm not saying the functionaries have necessarily made a mistake, but it just seems like this account might not be a sock to me. They could just be someone who happened to edit from the same public wifi or whatever and got caught in the crossfire. Could someone who did the CheckUsering take a look? It would be rather inconsiderate if a productive editor gets blocked by mistake. —Tom Morris (talk) 11:21, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The results for Arr4 were sanity-checked with a few checkusers, at least in part because it was a well-established account. Aside from the technical evidence, there is also interweaving of editing on several articles/topics of the socks. Risker (talk) 12:27, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * User:Arr4 has a bunch of issues. They were noticed to be editing for pay back in Feb of 2015. They disclosed some of their paid editing. And we let them continue. They than requested an account move and fell of my radar. Other issues is they like to copy and paste from press releases. They were warned for it once. And then continued afterwards . Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:46, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Kudos to Risker and everyone involved with this case! Very impressive work. --Varnent (talk)(COI) 14:21, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Just joining with others above to thank the team, and to support legal action. Actual real world consequences for fraud and extortion for the perpetrators would hopefully change this landscape, something I'm not sure blocks and reproaches can do. Bishonen &#124; talk 11:20, 2 September 2015 (UTC).
 * I've long thought that NPP can be too easily gamed, this isn't the first time we have socks patrolling/reviewing new pages by other socks. I've made a preliminary suggestion to restrict patrol and page curation to reviewers/patrollers. Cenarium (talk) 18:47, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Technical question
Given what's been posted here, I thoroughly agree with the actions that have been taken. My only concern is technical: where did EgressBot get the list of users to block and tag? Did the checkuser(s) give the bot a list offline, or a list on a full-protected wikipage? I'm just afraid of hearing that it was an unprotected on-wiki list, for fear that someone would have vandalised it by adding or subtracting names. PS, the original version of this question may sound like I'm questioning the contents of the list. I'm not: this is solely a question about the provenance of the block-list from checkuser to bot. Nyttend (talk) 01:51, 1 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I was supplied a list by the checkusers, the block summary, settings, and block message was all specified by them. All communication was private and off-wiki. <b style="color:Chocolate">Chillum</b> 02:00, 1 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Chillum is correct. The list of accounts to be blocked was developed solely by the checkuser team and included accounts that were both technically connected and edited within the rather narrow behavioural confines. Chillum was provided with the names of the accounts in advance; however, the list of accounts was also made available to all functionaries in advance (as a sanity check), and was posted onwiki on the LTA/Accounts page about 7 hours prior to the announcement and initiation of the blocks.  I've compared the block log with the list provided to Chillum and the one posted onwiki, and it appears to be identical.  All of the messages used were written by the checkuser team, the block settings were determined by the checkuser team, and the checkuser team facilitated the bot admin and flag process with the bureaucrats.  Risker (talk) 02:10, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay, so you did the comparison: sounds fine. I wasn't attempting to ask how the names list was compiled, or anything like that.  I was just wanting to be sure that the list of usernames caught by the checkusers was identical to the list of usernames blocked by the bots.  Nyttend (talk) 02:38, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Taking down Upworks/Elance accounts
I have been in discussion with Upworks/Elance and they have agreed to take down accounts we feel are involved in undeclared paid editing (and have taken down a fair number on my request). Do we need a structured method to do this? Do we need a specific group of functionaries to help? Are we will to make an exception to WP:OUTING for Elance/Upwork accounts? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:15, 1 September 2015 (UTC)


 * We have long made exceptions to the outing policy (actually, it's not an exception, since the foundation policy includes this) to communicate the IPs of extremely disruptive users to their ISPs. So I think this is precedent for allow information to be shared with jobs boards to prevents editors from violating the TOS. Though permission to carry out this sort of communication should come from the foundation first. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:42, 1 September 2015 (UTC)


 * No. There are joejobs galore on there. -- Guerillero &#124;  Parlez Moi  03:26, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you mean User:Guerillero? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 03:34, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * People pretending to be other people. "Hi, my username on Wikipedia is Doc James. Let me edit your article!" Keegan (talk) 03:44, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes of course. But often links says X company is offering $300 for an article about Y and it was posted a week ago. Than an Elance account picks it up. And wow we have a new Wikipedia article on the subject that is promotional and created today by a brand new account that looks very experienced and does not disclose that they are paid. So what if the Elance account that picked it up called themselves Doc James. We would be dealing with the brand new account that created this new promotional article and might be tempted to run a check user on them. Especially if we find a half dozen other new accounts that edit just like them and picked up jobs using the same Elance account. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 03:56, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Connecting Wikipedia accounts to Elance/Fiver/etc accounts isn't as easy as you think. There has been more than one case where another person has used information scraped from a user's userpage/website/facebook/linkedin to pose as them. I can think of one case where a person was convinced that a connection between a freelance account and a Wikipedia account existed. When push came to shove CU evidence showed that the editor was lucky enough to have forgotten to update their userpage when they moved and was exonerated. This is why arbcom has such high standards for off wiki evidence. I am strongly opposed to relaxing our standards of outing or tasking anyone who has a bee in their bonnet about paid editing so that we can replay the Durova-!! affair. -- Guerillero &#124;  Parlez Moi  04:12, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You are not going to get what I described through impersonation. We more want to be able to give others a heads up that an article on subject X is likely going to be created soon because someone is paying for one on Elance.
 * I occasionally put these non articles on my watch list so I can than pick up the paid editor who creates it. They generally use throw away accounts. It is one account per job. Making them create new Elance accounts is more of a burden for them as often it takes a reputation before one can get a job their.
 * This is the same thing with "copy and paste" issues. One usually needs to think a little before accusing someone of plagiarism. A large portion of the time it is the other site that plagiarized from an older copy of us. This does not mean that we should not investigate these issues. Or tie one of our hands behind our backs when we do. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 04:22, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah it seems to me most people are thinking of this in the wrong way. AFAICT, this isn't a suggestion of taking action against editors here because of accounts on other sites. This appears to be solely a suggestion of taking action against accounts on other sites, when they appear to be doing stuff against our TOU (and therefore I guess the TOU of the other site). If someone on another site is pretending to be Doc James, closing that account isn't generally going to be harmful to the real Doc James, if anything it will be beneficial. The only question is whether the account on the other site is really being used by someone who's violating the TOU here. Who they actually are doesn't matter so much. There is I guess some risk of inappropriate action. In particular, it's possible a rival or simply a troll will see an account on one of these sites accept a job, and come here and create or modify the article. People will assume this came from the account which accepted the job, and if there was no disclosure this would be a TOU violation. Still, there may be ways we could minimise this, depending on the willingness of the other site and their policies. For example, we could wait a week or whatever before doing anything. If the person who accepted the jobs tell the client they completed it, either they lied to the client, or they were the one who edited here, so the site might be willing to close them. Another option although perhaps more controversial and more work for the other site (so less likely to get their cooperation), if the account on the other site has accepted and completed a wikipedia job before, if they claim the person who made the recent edits wasn't them, they could be asked to disclose privately to that other sites admins, what their wikipedia account is. The other site admins could then confirm that disclosure had taken place in the past here, and check via email here that the account here is really who they said they were on the other site.  Nil Einne (talk) 14:03, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If someone is pretending to be me on another site that is "impersonation". It is not allowed by our TOU per "These Terms of Use prohibit engaging in deceptive activities, including misrepresentation of affiliation, impersonation, and fraud." or Upwork's TOU per "Any offer of illegal activity or services that would violate the intellectual property rights, copyrights or terms of service of another service, product or website. Content that is offensive or contains false or defamatory remarks." Doc James'  (talk · contribs · email) 18:31, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi all, I want to share a few thoughts from a legal perspective on the issue of connecting Wikipedia accounts with accounts on other job sites.


 * 1) WMF Legal already protects the Wikipedia trademarks (like the puzzle globe) from misuse, including when someone uses them inappropriately on a job site. This is part of our standard practice and can sometimes take a little while to resolve, but is consistently successful in removing accounts that violate our  Trademark Policy. You can report trademark violations here: legal@wikimedia.org.
 * 2) Most job sites will take down job postings that are clear violations of the WMF  Terms of Use. If someone writes “I post under account X and I never disclose my paid clients,” then any community member that catches it can report it to the job site and usually get the job posting taken down. Similarly, it's a violation of our Terms of Use to edit once you are banned, so a community member can report job postings that are using banned accounts.
 * 3) Job sites are not so quick to take down postings that aren’t clear violations of any rules. It can sometimes be really hard to tell if a person is offering properly disclosed paid editing, or to provide off-wiki editing and writing assistance, both of which may not be forbidden by our Terms of Use. Most job sites err on the side of not removing a post if there isn’t a clear problem. We, as a community, want to be careful to avoid over-reporting so that when we do find a problem, it's taken seriously and gets a good response.
 * 4) In cases where there is a major on-wiki violation, evidence of the on-wiki investigation (e.g., long-term abuse or sockpuppet pages) can help you report a page where the job posting links to a known long-term abuser but doesn’t contain anything in the post itself that’s an obvious problem. In other words, if you can go to a job site and say “this person is banned from Wikipedia because of X, Y, and Z,” they’ll be much more helpful in taking down the posting than if there’s an uncertain violation that can’t be easily seen from the content of a job post.
 * 5) Regarding the outing concerns, there are a few ways that the community can address harmful off-wiki activity while still protecting innocent users’ privacy:
 * If there is a clear connection between an abusive Wikipedia user account and an account on another site, it can be resolved anywhere: the account can be banned on Wikipedia, the account on another site can be removed for a Terms of Use violation, or both. For example, a user pretending to be a Wikipedia user could be banned on Wikipedia, the job site, or both.
 * If non-public data is the only way to connect a job posting to a user account, then a checkuser should contact legal@wikimedia.org to discuss the case. The WMF may be able to speak directly with the job site to determine if the account is the same without sharing any private data.
 * Finally, we should err on the side of protecting people's privacy and not out someone with ambiguous off-wiki connections.


 * What that all comes down to is we think it’s great if community members help report clear cases of abuse when they’re found, but we should all be careful to avoid too much reporting on unclear cases to make sure that these job sites stay on our side and take requests from the Wikimedia community seriously. Jrogers (WMF) (talk) 00:46, 5 September 2015 (UTC) (Note, as attorney for the Wikimedia Foundation, my statement is not intended as legal advice. Read more)

Official company accounts
Maybe it is time we consider the German model of official company accounts that are verified and only allowed to comment on the talk pages? If we give corporations a clear method they can communicate with us than they may be less inclined to use the underworld services such as the above. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:23, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * How would this change anything? The accounts here had no interest in following any of the community norms -- Guerillero &#124;  Parlez Moi  03:24, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Companies are willing to turn to these sorts of entities as they are not clear how to engage properly. If we made it easier and clearer to engage properly less companies would turn to undisclosed paid editing. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 03:33, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * +1 --Prolineserver (talk) 07:11, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Bear in mind also that for years now, any English Wikipedia user account named "Acme Widgets Inc." or similar has been instabanned under the user name policy (WP:CORPNAME) and told to come back with an account name like "GandalfTheGrey". The English Wikipedia has had over 100,000 businesses come here guilelessly, naively, openly, transparently, under their real names, only to teach them instantly that to edit here, you have to hide who you are, because everyone else is hiding, too. And year by year, it continues. Utter madness. Andreas JN 466 16:38, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There are several predictable downsides:
 * 1the undisclosed paid editing would be less; the promotional editing would not be. And when their promotional pages were deleted, they would complain we had deleted the advertisements that they had thought they were entitled to. They tend to think they own the page on their company now, and making such editing legitimate would be seen as confirming it.
 * 2it would also discourage even such small amount of NPOV volunteer editing of such pages as we have, if the volunteers had to compete with paid editors.
 * 3even more than at present, the volunteers who care about quality would spend their time rewriting the work of paid editors--doing the work for which other people are being paid. The amount of this already is quite discouraging.
 * It is none the less possible that the balance would be positive,and is worth considering.  DGG ( talk ) 16:05, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You saw the part where the registered corporate account is only permitted on the talk page of the article, and not permitted to edit related content? That should limit the impact, and perhaps provide reasonable and more transparent communication with an organization that may have legitimate concerns about content.  What occurs to me, though, is that a great deal of the paid editing relates to articles that don't exist until someone pays for them to be created, which would make this option pretty much impossible for the organizations that are most likely to engage paid editors.  Risker (talk) 16:24, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This would be a lot better than the current scenario. If the PR manager at XYZ corp is allowed to identify (through OTRS maybe), use the talk page and submit a modified version of for changes and/or requests that an autoconfirmed editor could act on there's a lot less incentive for them to hire a PR firm. This would also free up some time of the COIN volunteers to address the other nonsense that creeps up related to new articles. This may be a small step in reducing some of the problems, but a positive one nevertheless. — Spaceman  Spiff  17:06, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * To make this even clearer. I am proposing that these account ONLY be allowed to comment on the talk pages of the article about them. They are not to comment at AfD or other places. They are also not to propose rewrites. They are to only point out grievous errors. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 18:25, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I've started an RfC on this issue. Mdann52 (talk) 18:50, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'd prefer we do something like this. –<b style="font-family:verdana;color:#000">xeno</b><sup style="color:#000">talk 17:16, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I would support official accounts with OTRS verification. Regards, Yann (talk) 18:14, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I have always advised any company representative to register an account, be open about who they are, and stick to the Talk page. That was the standard advice template on OTRS (I know because I wrote it). I firmly believe that is the best way of doing things: we have been round the loop with shared accounts, it's not going to fly, but "Jan (MegaCo PR)" would be a perfectly acceptable username I think, provided they could verify the claim to company affiliation by email to OTRS. I wish we could have an editnotice on all articles relating to commercial entities advising this. Guy (Help!) 22:14, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion to Wikipedia_talk:Long-term_abuse/Orangemoody?
I want to note that this fine discussion here is going to be swept up the by the archive bot fairly quickly. Might you folks want to have coordination take place at Wikipedia_talk:Long-term_abuse/Orangemoody? -- Fuzheado &#124; Talk 01:49, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * While you are correct that discussion specific to Orangemoody accounts may best occur there, we have a significant amount of discussion about the general principles of undisclosed paid editing that isn't specific to this case, and in fact in some ways doesn't relate to this case at all. I suppose that could go somewhere else too, but every time we take these discussions to discrete locations, they wind up with the same people talking about the same things, and miss out on the broader perspective of the wider community. This discussion has been going on for less than 4 hours. I'd like to see it continue here, at least the bigger-picture issues.  Risker (talk) 02:32, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

What to do about additional articles by Orangemoody socks
Nyttend stopped by my talk page to inquire what the expectations are for deleting further sock-created articles, and it is a good question. The functionaries as a group had a long and vigorous discussion about how to handle the ones that had been specifically identified during the course of the investigation, and the consensus (which involved about 18 very experienced administrators, which is a lot more than you'd ever see at an AfD) was to delete all of these articles that had been found. A few functionaries expressed concern about deleting a few of the articles where either (a) the subject was thought to be very likely to pass even enhanced notability criteria, or (b) where we could not locate the original article/draft that had led to the sock creation. The investigation was always intended to be a constrained one - we knew it would be impossible to reliably confirm the that socks that didn't edit within the narrow checkuser window were definitively linked to the larger group - and we knew that when we reached the point of checking what we could, we would be turning this over to the community for further action.

So now....the next steps are in the hands of the community. Based on the hard evidence that can be dug up with diligence without using checkuser data, we could locate prior versions of articles/drafts for about 90-95% of the articles that have been deleted; it takes some digging and admin tools to look at deleted pages, and a good deal of poking around in AfC and similar areas. My personal suggestion would be that if a prior version unrelated to a sock is identified, it is probably the best evidence that we will have that it is an example of undisclosed paid editing, and that the article subject is likely to have been contacted by this sock group. Myself, I would probably delete that type of article using the same basis that has led to the deletions today: that article subjects should not be asked to pay for articles or for their protection, and that the article is almost certainly at least a copyvio if it started off from someone else's unattributed draft. I'd suggest normal admin review of any articles to determine if they meet our currently existing speedy deletion criteria, even if that specific criterion isn't mentioned in the CSD request; admins do that all the time when CSD requests are posted. But maybe the community might want to have a discussion and determine if, for these specific articles that are from these specific socks, they want to just say "clean sweep, they can all go and start afresh for the notable subjects". It's not appropriate for me to make that decision alone, and to be truthful, I don't think it's even a call for the functionary team despite its many years of experience. This has to come from the community at large.

I'd urge the community to give serious consideration to deleting any article that they identify as being from an OM sock; we knew at the time we posted the list that it didn't include all of them because we did not go back and see what the accounts had done since we'd done the initial checks that put them on the list. We have identified quite a few examples of how the article subjects have been abused, and even on this noticeboard there have been multiple reports over the last few months of people assuming the identities of administrators and experienced users in order to leverage money out of hopeful article subjects/draft creators, many of whom will be unwilling to report what has happened to them. I'd be curious to understand how the community would be in a position to find out from the article subjects whether or not they were paying for the article about them; the team that worked on this specifically pushed that to WMF staff because we didn't feel it appropriate for Wikipedians (not even those of us who work with sensitive information all the time) to make that kind of contact. I don't know how you'll be sure that someone isn't getting told "see, we told you your article would be protected, and our rate has just doubled". But this is a decision for the community. We took this investigation as far as we could. Risker (talk) 03:32, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Convenience link — I declined a speedy deletion because I wasn't sure how to interpret the comments given up above, one saying basically "delete it all" and another "admins may delete these pages". Nyttend (talk) 03:54, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's kind of a tough question. While I don't think any functionary is trying to wash their hands of this, as a group we probably invested 800+ hours into this investigation, and other things didn't get done; other parts of the project also need our attention. Nothing is left to do that absolutely requires our bits - we're confident that all the socks are confirmed socks and that the community can treat them as such. But we know we cannot *force* the community (or any individual editor/admin, for that matter) to follow precisely in our footsteps. Risker (talk) 04:04, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * that article can be speedy deleted as a copyright violation. It was take from Draft:The_Spent_Idols. At that point the code is taken and modified without attribution, violating CC By-SA 3.0. It was then used to probably extort poor User:Angel Spent, who originally wrote the draft. Keegan (talk) 04:20, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly. I have deleted it as a copyright violation. These accounts are not writing this stuff and therefore are not its authors. Other accounts are the authors. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 04:31, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Before this was announced I took some time to look at some of the articles, and without fail they were either copyvios or unambiguous spam. Admins should feel free to delete any other articles created by the sockfarm where they meet CSD criteria; basically just business as usual.  If you strike one that has originated from the sockfarm but doesn't obviously fit into any of the speedy deletion criteria then that's something we can discuss here.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 05:25, 1 September 2015 (UTC).
 * What about this one Jerry_G._Blaivas? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 06:15, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There are about 20 articles, including this one, that I could not find the source through normal means of checking Draft or AfC. Intuition tells me that these articles were likely created in User:FooBar/sandbox space, which the ring watched CSDs for, and they grabbed content from there before deletion. The only way to check would be a database grep of all deleted userspace sandboxes for the key term, and that's not very feasible. Keegan (talk) 06:29, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks User:Keegan. Due to the very high likelihood that it is a copy and paste of someone else's work I have deleted it. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 18:18, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * What about Axel Von Schubert? MER-C 08:40, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That one was a copyvio of http://axelvonschubert.com/ and has been deleted as such. Lankiveil (speak to me) 10:08, 1 September 2015 (UTC).


 * Review, check for bias, nuke the obvious spam, I would say. I note that one of the socks was active at the quackmungous, where he tried to whitewash criticism of their exploitative cancer quackery, so even if there are obviously notable subjects the content itself is likely to be problematic. Guy (Help!) 09:06, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Articles for deletion/Koozai is an ongoing AfD for an article created by a user blocked last night as an OM sock. (I started the AfD before this all happened.) Feel free to take a look. —Tom Morris (talk) 09:10, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I just went through the list and deleted what I thought was deletable according to our CSD criteria, marking the criterion or criteria that I think applied. I left Dion Johnson and one or two others that seemed salvageable to me. Drmies (talk) 18:57, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I noted that the article Enterprise Value Tax had not been deleted yet. After a quick look, it seemed sourced, so I started editing it for balance, but when I re-read the article it was obvious that, however many sources it had, it was a promotional article pushing one view of the tax (opposition, because it would hurt investment management firms).  Because I don't think it's usual for us to have an article on a proposed change in the US tax code (of which they are many every year), I redirected it to Capital gains tax in the United States, but I really think it needs to be deleted instead, per WP:CRYSTAL and WP:PROMO.  Over to you, admins, for possible deletion. BMK (talk) 20:38, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
 * A question: what should be done with the images uploaded by the socks? Many have been orphaned by the deletion of the page they were originally on, but only the fair use images have been automatically tagged for deletion. Some of the free images, like File:Como brothers band.jpg, are still out there. Altamel (talk) 03:10, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Speaking only for myself, I'm inclined to leave free-use images that are properly attributed and whose license has been verified. As is noted in the statement that starts this entire section, it's quite possible that article subjects are actually notable enough for an article; that will take some sorting by our community of editors. Therefore, it's possible that the properly attributed free images may be used. Again, just my own personal opinion.  Risker (talk) 03:27, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Process question - the request not to usefy is a challenge
First, kudos on the awesome work done by the team. I think I have some sense of the enormous amount of work required to get us to this point as well as the logistical complications of organizing this effort.

I note the request not to undelete or userfy articles deleted as part of this investigation. This request is much tougher than it sounds. I routinely field requests for restoration of a deleted article. I always check to make sure that it wasn't deleted as a copyright violation, attack page, or office action, but I am generally pretty lenient when it comes to giving people another chance to create a good article.

While I may remember to check the article name against the list of deleted articles over the next few days, it is not a reasonable process to expect an admin responding to a request for userfication to check against that list forever. I had hoped the deletion log would identify the deletion as a G5, but I looked at two on the list and did not see that. I have userfied articles which were deleted under G5 but I normally do some checking to make sure I understand what's going on.

For example, if someone requests a restoration of Eddie Gear a few weeks from now, I don't see anything on the deletion log which would suggest to me that it should not be restored. Again, in the short term, it might occur to me to check this list, but a month from now that won't occur to me. Plus, it is an unreasonable process step to expect someone to do the normal process and then also check against some list every single time.

Would it be possible for a bot to go and mark all of these as deleted under G5? When I'm asked to restore an article that was deleted under G5 I do a little bit more homework, but if I simply see that it was deleted as an A7, there's nothing to suggest that it shouldn't be restored.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  14:29, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Good question, Sphilbrick. This is one of the articles that was deleted before we closed the case (we did not interfere with any community-based processes that occurred while the investigation was occurring), and thus does not have the "standardized" deletion summary of Speedy deletion per Long-term abuse/Orangemoody/Articles without prejudice to recreation. Administrators: please read the LTA page before undeleting.  Perhaps that should be added? Open to the thinking of others on how to address this.  It applies to 38 pages; the other 210 have that summary.  Risker (talk) 14:53, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the prompt response. I guess I got lucky (or unlucky depending on your point of view) in my random selection of articles to check. The fact that 210 have summary will certainly be a heads up for me to review those cases. If there is a way to add that note to the other 38 it would be helpful. I fully understand there are a lot of things still going on so this doesn't constitute a high priority but it would be helpful if it's relatively easy to do.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  15:41, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It would take a willing administrator to undelete the page, and then redelete with the standard summary; lather, rinse and repeat x38 times. Probably about an hour's work, all told.  The previous deletion summary would remain in the page's deletion logs, so that information would not be lost.  I'm not in a position to do it today, but perhaps there is a cheerful volunteer who can pitch in.  Risker (talk) 15:48, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If I'm not mistaken Twinkle batch undelete and subsequent batch delete could be used for this and it could be completed in a couple of minutes, if the list (and only that list) of 38 articles is in one page.&mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  15:54, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅. T. Canens (talk) 16:00, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Didn't see that Timotheus had already done it. I did it also so now it is there twice.  -- GB fan 16:05, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks to both of you.-- S Philbrick (Talk)  19:07, 1 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Good work, guys! 2601:84:8A00:DA6B:1C30:E280:1C61:7266 (talk) 01:42, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Note about additional accounts
Just a note that, now that the major portion of the investigation has been completed and reported to the community, checkusers will be reviewing the data to look for additional accounts that may have been missed in the main report. It is likely that we will find a few; in order to address the bulk of the problem, we had limited time to go back and review data that had been collected in the earliest days of the investigation. Those additional accounts will be added on the LTA/Accounts page when they are identified. Risker (talk) 20:02, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That's excellent news. BMK (talk) 21:19, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Revisit G13 eligibility?
One of the contributing factors to this mess is the availability of declined drafts for extended periods of time. In some cases this extended availability may be justified, but for the most part, if no one is editing the draft, what's the point in keeping it for six months during which time such misuse can happen? At the very least we should look at carving out a quicker form of G13 for organizations/products/services and BLPs as this is where most of the paid editing would take place. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  02:44, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Is that needed? A lot of the most junky pages are taken to MFD. The bigger problem I see if the removal of the AFC header all the time (especially after it's declined) so that no one knows when it is G13 eligible. If someone made a bot that treated that as vandalism and reverted it, that would save a lot of headaches. Some more experienced editors massively object to that notice being put on their articles as well but there isn't a policy either way on the matter. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:48, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The problem is that if the page lives in Draft namespace, editors are not obligated to keep pages in the AfC project. The draft page is not eligible for G13 unless there's at least one AFC submittion template on it.  I have lobbied multiple times to have some sort of process for sorting through draft space pages and raise them to the attention of human eyes/brains to determine if we need to keep the page with no success.  I have lobbied multiple times to have a process that restores AFC submission banners if the editor who is removing them isn't a trusted user to prevent the "permanant stealing" of the draft out of the G13 drogue, with no success. Now if a proposal were to happen at the AFC wikiproject that positively asserted this requirement (or on the Draft namespace talk page) then I could look at coding up a bot that covered these cases. Hasteur (talk) 17:58, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * , the misuse of drafts is what I was concerned about, not the real junky ones. I doubt the likes of the Orangemoody group would target the junky ones. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  20:20, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Destruction of evidence
Someone must stop Ricky81682. While there is discussions about these citation templates Ricky continues to flood TFD with deletion requests. Someone must immediately close Templates_for_discussion/Log/2015_September_6 and all the rest until we have a real consensus supporting their disuse. We cannot have chaos as people like him delete the evidence that these templates are in use. 166.176.59.41 (talk) 21:41, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Just leaving this here.... Seems like our friend here just keeps pushing it.... Same behavior as last time. -- Orduin  Discuss 22:15, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * it's not just me. See the discussion above. There is no consensus to remove these templates. 166.176.57.211 (talk) 23:56, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Wow, IPs playing with sticks in Australia. In all seriousness though, as Orduin pretty much pointed out, the IP is the one who is causing chaos, not Ricky.  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 00:17, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There was a consensus on AN/I to topic ban this IP editor, is this not a violation? The editor's IP range should be blocked for WP:TE. BMK (talk) 03:20, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The consensus for the T-ban was over areas related to the wikiproject WOP, and their pages of interest; so no, this is not a violation of the T-ban. TE maybe, but not T-ban vio. -- Orduin  Discuss 18:38, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Hmm, not sure where else to put this, but could someone close Template_talk:Cite_isbn as unnecessary? Not to mention it was never properly formed.... Thanks -- Orduin  Discuss 00:46, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Inna discography
Somebody please take a look at this, I think the intention of the nominator was to undo my NAC, but he moved the closure down the page and relisted it. The nominator User:CFCF also did not restore the AfD tag at the article, and did not revert the log at the article's talk page. I think the bot parses this still as a closed AfD. I left a message on his talk page, but didn't get any answer. Kraxler (talk) 22:42, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that is confusing. I personally don't think an NAC was appropriate in this case, although I do think that the discussion is leaning toward "keep".  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 00:13, 9 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I've provisionally restored the close as it was obviously inappropriate to try to reopen one's own nomination, but I'm not convinced this close was appropriate. The discussion had been relisted about six hours prior to your closing it and the consensus was not particularly clarified in that time period. In fact, the discussion was evenly split with two editors in favor of deletion and two in favor of keeping. I'm not sure there was any consensus, much less a "clear keep" consensus. Also, you appear to have closed the discussion based on your own rationale rather than a reading of consensus, contrary to WP:NAC. I'll see if anyone else has any input though. S warm   ♠  01:01, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * AfD is not a headcount. The nominator says "no proper sources" which is ludicrous, and qualifies actually for WP:SK # 3, considering that there are 136 refs in the article, and even dicounting iTunes, there are lots of sources, and a goodly number of them seem to be as proper as they can be. The only other "delete" !voter states "As with all Inna albums and songs, the sourcing is atrocious. She apparently has nothing like a press agent working to make official announcements. Instead, there are interviews she has with bloggers, and the contradictory things she says are interpreted different ways by other bloggers. Huge questions remain about this or that album being official, or what is its name." That's not a reason to delete, it's a content question which must be debated on the pertaining talk page, per WP:BEFORE C 1. The two "keep" !votes actually address these two points, one states that there are enough reliable sources to support the content, the other cites AfD is WP:NOTCLEANUP. There's nothing more to say, any other !vote will repeat these same points. The result is clear consensus to "keep and improve" as pointed out. My closure assesses consensus, it's not a WP:SUPERVOTE. Kraxler (talk) 18:52, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Ping & ! – You're linking to the policy you violated. There sources are atrocious, and none of them are decent enough to build an article upon. This clearly does not live up to WP:NOTE when you take into account the sources. -- CFCF  🍌 (email) 20:11, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Why didn't you answer to my message on your talk page? Kraxler (talk) 23:58, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Uninvolved editor who works in music related article's two cents: As a participant, I would have probably gone "keep", but as a closer, I would not have closed it as "keep" yet. With so few participants and it just being relisted, it just didn't need to be closed yet. Sergecross73  msg me  00:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Requesting Administrator review
I'm not even sure if this, or ANI, is the "correct forum", but I am requesting a wider administrator review of this reversion.

The relevant discussions can be seen here, here, here, and my Talk page, here. This absolutely strikes me as an Admin trying to impose a "supervote" over a previous consensus that was reached. I'm interested to see if other Admins think I'm way off base here, or not. Thanks in advance. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:37, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I fail to see where I have cast a supervote. As stated, I'm not in the slightest concerned with the outcome of the RfC but but your methods of acquiring 'consensus' and implementing them certainly give me pause. I have already suggested that if you would like a review of my performance as an admin (there are neither super-votes nor admin actions involved on my part) is concerned, that you are more than welcome to take the issue direct to Arbcom;  I shall not be commenting further here. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:54, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not interested in "reviewing your performance as an Admin". I am interested in reviewing your actions in this instance. Again, there is no requirement that an action such as was taken at WP:Autopatrolled requires an RfC – as per WP:TALKFIRST, there only needs to be a discussion held. In fact, two recent discussions were held and there was no objection to the change. And the discussions were held in the appropriate forums. If all you want is a wider RfC to confirm the consensus for the change, there was zero reason to revert the change to the lower article threshold at WP:Autopatrolled, with the an inaccurate edit summary. Now, that's all I'm going to say at this point, unless other Admins request more info from me. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:06, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * In Kudpung's defense, I had no idea there was a discussion about reducing the article threshold for autopatrolled either, and I'm probably more active at PERM than he is. A note should have been left at WT:PERM. To be clear I am in favour of the prerequisite reduction, but this situation overall sounds like a big misunderstanding &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  05:01, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Honestly, that never occurred to me, and it's hard to know which forums to post these things to. I certainly would have added a notice to WT:PERM had it been requested. But I had assumed that a topic at WP:VPP would be deemed sufficient, especially after starting at WT:Autopatrolled. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:06, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree, and also not blaming you for not posting at WT:PERM, as it is a lesser known corner of the admin backlog. I don't really want to get involved with all of this, I just think an admin review might be as unnecessary as the RfC &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  05:13, 9 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I was also confused and very surprised by Kudpung's action here. There was a month of discussion about this proposal and both the relevant talk page and WP:VPP were perfectly legitimate places for it. The discussions garnered plenty of input from the community and the consensus was unanimous. RfC is a great dispute resolution/discussion tool but it's certainly not mandatory nor was it needed in this case. I don't think anyone's questioning Kudpung's integrity as an administrator, but I honestly don't see how the extensive discussion and clear consensus behind this can be simply written off because one admin thinks it needs to be "reviewed" via a different forum. By all means, start an RfC if you feel it needs further discussion, but even admins can't simply block the implementation of proposals that are clearly supported by consensus. S warm   ♠  06:21, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The discussion was open for more than a month and was unanimously in favour of the change. So I agree that the change needs to be re-implemented. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:07, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I note that Kudpung has set up an RfC at Autopatrolled/RfC to change threshold. To avoid this issue taking up more time, I propose to close that RfC and reimplement the change based on the previous discussion. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:25, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and formal RfCs are unnecessary a waste of time when the matter has been unanimously decided at the relevant noticeboard. In a discussion that runs for the requisite length of time and has unanimous support, closure by the proposer isn't so inappropriate as to make the whole process void. —Kusma (t·c) 08:37, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Likewise. RFC seems excessive process wonkery at this point given the previous participation. Decisions are based on consensus. An RFC is one method of gathering consensus, a discussion is another. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:28, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I have reimplemented the change and closed the RfC. Hopefully we can move on now. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:44, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

permission
Dear Admin, I would like to ask a permission to write a new page about the CEAS Private Business School. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramcso (talk • contribs) 10:11, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Suggest you read Notability (organizations and companies) to see if the school meets our criteria for inclusion. If so, try the article wizard. Regards &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:28, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Forwarding paid editing report
A concerned person sent an email to  noting, , and uk.fiverr.com/nickaang/create-a-wikipedia-page (protection filter triggered, so link removed) and accused  of being that person. They did not state what their evidence is, but as the accused is already indefblocked as a sock of a paid editor, I feel OK passing on the accusation. Clearly the initial report was sent to the wrong forum, however I thought it would be appropriate to bring it up here. I will now proceed to close that ticket, which for users with OTRS access is available here. Storkk (talk) 15:00, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I now see that there's a dedicated queue - I have moved it there (though kept it closed) so that an OTRS agent does not need to be permissioned for the photosubmission queue. Storkk (talk) 15:08, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That was the right thing to do, thanks. Keegan (talk) 02:16, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Unprotect
Can someone please immediately unprotect or suitably edit List of monarchs in Britain by length of reign? Linked from the main page, much in the news, needs to be updated ASAP but can't be by ordinary editors for no apparent reason. W. P. Uzer (talk) 17:05, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It's been protected this morning and until tonight. In theory the time where the current monarch becomes the longest reigning is in about 2-3 hours. ☺ ·  Salvidrim!   ·  &#9993;  17:15, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It was full protected because people were edit-warring that QE2 had surpassed Victoria - Technically she didnt surpass her until some point today so people were reverting it out. Seriously if it was going to happen, edit-warring to not allow the change until the exact minute she noses ahead is beyond lame. And the the BBC says that she surpassed her at 17:30 BST (it is currently 18:17 BST) Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:17, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

✅ --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:37, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Inappropriate edit summaries
Sockpuppet investigations/Escoperloit targeted Persian people and its talk page Talk:Persian people. Many of his edit summaries are inappropriate, racist and ethnic insults. For example see this diff. It will be very helpful if some admins remove those edit summaries. Should I provide all related diffs? --Zyma (talk) 05:21, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I think I got them all. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:15, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Would these count for deletion too? Thanks --  Orduin  Discuss 22:06, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, someone needs to revdelete that nonsense and block the IP (again).  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 00:21, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Got them. IP is already blocked was blocked at the time. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:35, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The IP doesn't appear to be blocked...  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 08:55, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Rephrased! We wouldn't generally block for longer unless problems reoccur. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:23, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Regards. --Zyma (talk) 23:07, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Alan Kurdy related articles
We now have three articles, somehow related to the recent (a week ago) death of Alan Kurdy. All of them have been nominated for deletion: Alan Kurdi (with a redirect Death of Alan Kurdi), Photographs of Alan Kurdi, and Nilüfer Demir. There are three independent AfD discussions, and also a number of merge discussions, since some of the articles were proposed to be merged. I voted in two of the AfDs, and I will certainly not be an admin summarizing the discussions. However, I think it would be beneficial if these discussions were summarized by one person, since the most possible outcome (as it looks now) would be merge and redirect, and different discussions have very different ideas on what should be merged where. Any ideas how it could be helped? To be clear, I am not soliciting the opinions on the notability of the articles (which should be left in the corresponding AfD discussions), I am asking for the suggestions how these independent discussions could be closed in the most efficient way, taking into account all opinions. Thanks.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:19, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * One suggestion would be to implement any consensus with no out-of-article effect (i.e any plain "keep", "no consensus" or "delete" decisions) and if consensus is to "merge" or "redirect" to have a centralized discussion on how to implement it.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 18:56, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest closing the AfD for Nilüfer Demir first, then Photographs of Alan Kurdi, and finally Alan Kurdi. The general chain of thought process among those supporting a merge appears to be in that order for a merge, and a final destination of Death of Alan Kurdi. I'm making no claim that this is the consensus, but if the results are merges, that is the order that makes sense. ~ RobTalk 21:26, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * My superficial reading is that the boy's article should be kept and renamed (I am considering both the AfD and the merge discussions) to "Death of ...", considering that the consensus seems to be that it merits an article but more over the death than the victim. The photographies article is murkier; probably more of a consensus to merge but the direction is an issue. Milüfer needs more input for now. This is assuming that current trends don't change. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 21:41, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and merged the merge discussions with the AfD discussions:
 * Talk:Alan Kurdi
 * Talk:Alan Kurdi
 * Talk:Photographs of Alan Kurdi
 * Hopefully this should reduce the fragmentation of the discussions a little bit. I am wondering whether it would be a good idea to close Articles for deletion/Alan Kurdi as speedy a WP:SNOW keep, and then defer the question of whether to move the page to the move discussion at Talk:Alan Kurdi. This depends on whether the discussion qualifies for speedy keep WP:SNOW, though, which I'm not sure it does. — <span style="color: #194D00; font-family: Palatino, Times, serif">Mr. Stradivarius  ♪ talk ♪ 06:07, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks to all of you who responded so far. Now Alan Kurdi was closed as keep, waiting for the other two.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:09, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * , it's by accident that I see this. Yes, the boy's article is closed, and I closed the photograph-article as "merge", which I think is properly seen as "merge back". That was a very unwise split-off from the main article. The photographer, there was no way to close that (early); we'll just have to let it run its course. There's some support for deletion, some support for keeping; much will depend on what the news cycle produces in the next few days. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 22:37, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking care of the first two requests. Yes, now we need to wait for several days until the nomination about the photographer could be closed.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:29, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive user (again)
I believe that the disruptive and blocked user is back since my last report. Sock now uses IPv6 addresses:, ,. SLBedit (talk) 21:03, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Tell that irritator that if they ever want to accomplish anything they'll have to play by the rules. It starts on the talk page. I'll be glad to extend protection indefinitely if they keep fucking around. Drmies (talk) 22:14, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

WP:COP-related CfD closure review
Per WP:CLOSECHALLENGE I'd like a closure review on Categories for discussion/Log/2015 May 25:
 * 1) Trying to sort it out with the closer, to no avail: User talk:MER-C
 * 2) Prior to that I had attempted to stop the bot implementing the closure, but the bot already had completed the task

Problem with the CfD as closed: overrides WP:COPDEF and WP:SEPARATE by adding categories like Category:15 BC to biographical articles. I'm OK with merging BC "birth by year" categories in BC "birth by decade" categories, and recategorizing the affected biographical articles along these lines, not with the "dual upmerge" of "birth by year" categories in biographical articles to both a "birth by decade" and a "by year" category (e.g. ) while this is undesirable overcategorization ("birth by date" categories are covered by WP:COPDEF, "by year" categories are not), and makes the BC by year categories mixed people/non-people categories (not allowed by WP:SEPARATE).

I started removing "by year" categories (diff), which is uncontroversial per WP:COP, but there are too many and any cooperation of bot operators seems to be impossible as long as there's no apparent consensus this is indeed what should be done. Also Bot policy proved to be ineffective in this case (see Wikipedia talk:Bots/Requests for approval)

pinging initiator of the CfD to know their view whether they were aware about the COPDEF/SEPARATE issues when submitting the CfD, and if not, whether it would have made any difference when being aware? Same question to the others participating in the CfD:, and.

Tx for considering this. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:43, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed that "dual upmerge" of "birth by year" categories in biographical articles to both a "birth by decade" and a "by year" category, would be highly undesirable. The non-birth year categories would be flooded with birth trivia, when they're suppose to contain other events, and have the births in a subcat.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  13:08, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware of any issues, for what it's worth in this stage. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:43, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Similar
The closure at Categories for discussion/Log/2015 May 30 has the same problem, I notified bot operator  and closing admin  of the topic being discussed here. --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:25, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Too late – contents already merged, see WP:CFDWM. At least we can hold off deletion of the old categories. – Fayenatic  L ondon 17:58, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Forward
Are we in agreement about these points:
 * 1) The closures of  on Categories for discussion/Log/2015 May 25 and of  on Categories for discussion/Log/2015 May 30 are undone, in view of the WP:COP incompatibility;
 * 2) The recategorizations and (partial) category deletions resulting from the now suspended closures are undone by bot
 * 3)  or whoever thinks this a good idea are of course at liberty to resubmit a similar CfD that keeps within the provisions of WP:COP.

I'd agree with a simple removal of "year" categories on biographical articles by bot, but as this may lead to other issues, I think it best to fully retract our steps to the situation "ante", and take it from there. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:42, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I would have no objection against removing them from "year" categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:52, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The consensus was a double upmerge. If the bios may not be categorised in the year categories, the other contributors may prefer to revert to the old births-by-year categories, rather than remove biographies from the year hierarchy altogether. Removing the bios from the year cats may make it harder to revert, as we would then not be able simply to reverse the contribs of Armbrustbot – which would be quite an arduous task on its own. – Fayenatic  L ondon 17:50, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Then I'd say just leave everything as currently is. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:42, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Are we in agreement then to close this thread on the three points I outlined above? --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:17, 14 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose overturning CFD discussionions on this page. The correct venue is WP:DRV. Armbrust The Homunculus 02:59, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Nah, WP:CfD does not stand for "Categories for deletion", it stands for "Categories for discussion", so, per WP:CLOSECHALLENGE "Challenging other closures" applies for which this is the right venue. please stop wikilawyering, the consensus is clear. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:25, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Doesn't matter, whether the D stands for deletion or not. CFD is part of the deletion process, and is therefore reviewed at WP:DRV. Also please don't close this discussion in violation of WP:INVOLVED again. Armbrust The Homunculus 11:50, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Which part of "please stop wikilawyering" was unclear? E.g., WP:INVOLVED is about admins, I'm not. --Francis Schonken (talk) 04:59, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Updated the closure, inviting a closer look from uninvolved users only. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:01, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * You keep to close this as an involved editor, and then say that "a closer look from uninvolved users only". That's boardering on hypocrisy. You can request uninvolved closure at WP:ANRFC. Armbrust The Homunculus 06:50, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Again: which part of "please stop wikilawyering" was unclear? E.g., shouldn't be listed at WP:ANRFC, doesn't meet its criteria. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:46, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Again: which part of "don't close this while being "involved" in the discussion was unclear." WP:ANRFC doesn't have any such criteria. Armbrust The Homunculus 06:32, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:ANRFC's criteria: "Formal closure by an uninvolved editor or administrator should be requested where consensus remains unclear, where the issue is a contentious one, or where there are wiki-wide implications"
 * "...consensus remains unclear..." – consensus is clear
 * "...issue is a contentious one..." – nobody thinks application of WP:COP to be contentious in this case
 * "...wiki-wide implications..." – well-defined limited set of articles, standard application of guidance: no wiki-wide implication
 * There is no rule that an involved party can't assess a clear consensus, close accordingly, and not burden ANRFC with such a trivial matter. So please stop wikilawyering: all procedural arguments against an uncontentious assessment of a clear consensus are clearly off-topic, no more than artificial red tape far from the ground of the matter (a series of categorizations not allowed by WP:COP on which everyone agrees it is applicable guidance here). --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:17, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * No, the consensus isn't clear in this discussion at all. Nobody really agrees with your proposal in the forward section. Armbrust The Homunculus 08:42, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * If an uninvolved editor thinks so, they can assess my closure. For the WP:INVOLVED admin I recommend Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:01, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not an admin, so WP:INVOLVED doesn't apply... according to your comment at 04:59, 19 August 2015 (UTC). Armbrust The Homunculus 09:08, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm going to say support MER-C's original close (as it was summing up the consensus). If another category needs deleting, this can be done separately (Personally, I say empty the "by decade" category, and change it to a parent cat of the "by year" ones, but that's just my 2 cents). This is probably dealt with best with a new CfD, not by overturning a perfectly valid close of a discussion from the views expressed. The close is valid with the arguments provided there. Mdann52 (talk) 10:25, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I asked for an uninvolved admin to review this discussion at Wikipedia talk:Deletion review. Cunard (talk) 06:02, 24 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Agreed that this discussion belongs at DRV.— S Marshall T/C 07:28, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Blank AFC submissions
More convenient here rather than CSD tagging. The criterion is G2.


 * Draft:09july1993
 * Draft:Article
 * Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/brian sedze
 * Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Denitria Lanise Santiago
 * Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Hakan Dogu
 * Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Justin Matthew
 * Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Lourdes Mount College of Engineering & Technology
 * Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Pune:all information about pune
 * Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Raphael Gentry: A Man of Great Faith and Empowerment
 * Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Sitda Bisballe - Nirvana is close by - Suan Mokh retreats
 * Draft:AnshuWap Inc.
 * Draft:Bamanghta
 * Draft:Dan Samson
 * Draft:David Cant (Chartered Safety Practitioner)
 * Draft:David Monroe (Christian Shade)
 * Draft:Hi
 * Draft:HAU SHI SEN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.6.159.92 (talk) 16:34, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅ except for the one that actually had content. ☺ ·  Salvidrim!   ·  &#9993;  17:31, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Skamecrazy123
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #EDEAFF; padding: 0px 10px 0px 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">
 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I can't leave a msg on the User:Skamecrazy123 talk page. Some of the recent reverts being done by the editor are wrong and are unexplained. 203.173.186.163 (talk) 19:43, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It's protected from vandals. And what exactly were you adding to the articles that I reverted, hmm?--Skamecrazy123 (talk) 19:44, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * In one case I fixed a link that you broke and for the email client article I cleaned it up a bit. 203.173.186.163 (talk) 19:47, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Why didn't you explain that in the edit summary, instead of wasting my time dragging me here? It didn't look like you were cleaning it up at all, hence the revert. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 19:51, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I explained one of my reasons in a hidden comment in the edit (which you should have noticed), and the rest of it should have been obvious. To say it is wasting your time is a spurious argument. I could say that you are wasting my time. Also, the quality of your edits had to be raised.  If I saw two problematic edits in such a short space of time in=t calls into question all of you other edits. 203.173.186.163 (talk) 19:55, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Also, why didn't you explain YOUR reasons for the reverts? 203.173.186.163 (talk) 20:06, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * This is another bad edit from Skamecrazy123. 203.173.186.163 (talk) 19:58, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b>  No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Llanfair­pwllgwyngyll­gogery­chwyrn­drobwll­llan­tysilio­gogo­goch" should redirect to "Llanfairpwllgwyngyll"
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llanfairpwllgwyngyll


 * It does. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:04, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. In theory the silly Victorian long name is the "official" one, according to some sources anyway. I must have a look at this. Guy (Help!) 18:06, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

"Llanfair­pwllgwyngyll­gogery­chwyrn­drobwll­llan­tysilio­gogo­goch" should redirect to "Llanfairpwllgwyngyll", take two
Llanfair­pwllgwyngyll­gogery­chwyrn­drobwll­llan­tysilio­gogo­goch is different from Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch; the former link includes a bunch of soft hyphens, as you'll see if you click it. This is why someone requested creation up above: non-admins can't create pages with soft hyphens in the titles. Question Do we want to create page titles with soft hyphens in them? Nyttend (talk) 01:45, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Per MOS:SHY: Use of soft hyphens should be limited to special cases, usually involving very long words (...); this would qualify, but I'm not sure it would be useful nor necessary as a redirected title. Wikilinks can be piped so that the displayed link has the soft hyphens while still linking to the soft-hyphen-less title. ☺ ·  Salvidrim!   ·  &#9993;  02:20, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No, we definitely do not want page titles with soft hyphens! They are an extremely unlikely search term. As Salvidrim points out, the piped text can incorporate any necessary differences from the linked title. --Mirokado (talk) 02:28, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

WP:TFD backlog
WP:TFD has got a significant backlog, beginning with 2 August. All closures are now performed by about three or four non-admins and. I've repeatedly tried to bring this to the attention of admins at WP:AN/RFC, but without any luck. It's come to the point that I've stopped commenting on the nominations of others so that there will be someone to perform the closures and relistings. Alakzi (talk) 17:26, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * And it would've been quite a laugh if the NAC delete closures RfC had been rejected. Alakzi (talk) 17:28, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If any admins lack the technical knowledge to close these or have questions about closing procedures in this area, please feel free to ask. Admin instructions can be found at WP:TFD/AI, and they do differ significantly from other deletion procedures, especially with regards to the process for the deletion after a close. ~ RobTalk 17:30, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If anyone is interested in helping out with this, I just dumped a list of un-closed TfDs at least a week old in my sandbox here. Sloppily script-generated, so there may be some errors or items missing, but it's easier to read than the bloated WP:TFD main page. Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:54, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Four motions about Discretionary Sanctions and Article Probations
I have posted four motions to alleviate overlap in our existing sanctions and to retire the last of the article probations. The community is asked to comment on them. -- Guerillero &#124;  Parlez Moi  23:46, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Black List
Dear Editors,

I would like to make a new page for the CEAS Business School, which is a private univertity in Vienna. But the system told me this headline is on blacklist. Please, can you help me?

The link for the school: http://www.ceasinst.co.uk/en/principals-message-european-business-school-in-vienna

Thank you in advance,

Ramona — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramcso (talk • contribs) 10:09, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The problem maybe that the user is not autoconfirmed. BMK (talk) 17:21, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Autoblock automatic reset
Hi. Could somebody please clarify an issue regarding Autoblock expiry after 24 hours, as WP:ABK is not clear on the issue. It states that:

"There is an internal autoblock expiry time variable, which is set to 24 hours, meaning that autoblocks only last for 24 hours."

Does that mean that the autoblocking function will only be active for the original underlying IP for 24 hours, or does it mean that users who become autoblocked will only be blocked for 24 hours, or both?

In the following situation:


 * Oct 1st - User:Bob is blocked indefinitely, with autoblock enabled
 * Oct 8th - Bob creates a sockpuppet (User:Jane) using the same IP as he used on the 1st

Given that there was no activity from the IP address for a week, will User:Jane be autoblocked?

Any input would be appreciated. TigerShark (talk) 11:55, 14 September 2015 (UTC)


 * It is my understanding that the autoblock is reset to 24 hours any time a user attempts to edit or create an account with the same IP. I may not have the details correct though, anyone who knows better feel free to correct me. <b style="color:Chocolate">Chillum</b> 15:45, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Two editors knowingly disruptively misquoting references to advance a position in an article
'''Moved to AN/I. BMK (talk) 00:31, 15 September 2015 (UTC)'''

Era style
User:Ldvhl is evidently on campaign to convert the era style of multiple articles against from one era-style to another. He does this against Wikipedia policy Manual of Style/Dates and numbers, but claims to do so to match "Wikipedia standards" in the edit summaries.


 * 
 * 
 * 

He is not edit-warring at the momment, and is discussing the issue with me at Talk:Ay kingdom but does not yet seem to understand that we should leave the era style on pages unchanged (unless first a clear WP:CON to change arises a discussion). He does not seem to ever start a discussion first, and seem to do this mosly on pages that are not patroled very much. tahc chat 17:27, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * tahc has been confrontational and not assuming WP:GOODFAITH. tahc reverted multiple times when there was no clear need to do so. ldvhl (talk) 21:55, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * ldvhl, at Talk:Ay kingdom you wrote, "This isn't a Christian topic, so it shouldn't be shoehorned into a Christian calendar." That is not a sufficient reason for changing the era style of the article. Please read WP:ERA carefully, especially where it says "Do not change the established era style in an article unless there are reasons specific to its content. Seek consensus on the talk page before making the change." I see no specific reason for changing the era style in that article other than an attempt at making it conform to your own preference. Making (often inconsistent or incomplete) changes to era style can be disruptive and irritating to other WP editors, so I advise that you drop the matter of era styles unless you can manage to handle it with more discretion than you have shown heretofore. Deor (talk) 22:11, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As someone who often makes era changes, I'll not jump in here. [edit of 2015-09-15, 0427: I meant to say "jump in here by doing anything". Of course I'm jumping in by offering a comment!]  Just wanting to bring in a reminder: era changes like  and  are good because they harmonise discordant usage, as mentioned by WP:ERA, Use either the BC-AD or the BCE-CE notation consistently within the same article.  That's significantly different from a campaign to replace one with the other.  Nyttend (talk) 00:04, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't understand where "discretion" even comes into this. I made a mistake in one place, which I corrected after it was pointed out.  One Wikipedia user got in a twist because they saw edits I made well after I made them after nobody else complained.  I admit I wasn't 100% aware of the policy, but it doesn't seem like tahc was either, since they, again, didn't follow WP:GOODFAITH and instead was combative and condescending.  This probably could have been a lot easier on everybody if tahc weren't so condescending.  ldvhl (talk) 02:19, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd say by "discretion" he's meaning that you just drop the subject, ignoring era styles entirely until you're more familiar with how we normally do things here. Nyttend (talk) 04:29, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Undisclosed paid editing: Walter Baets by User:Jebblz
It has become clear in OTRS 2015090810008488 that User:Jebblz is an account of Rothko, a company that has been or will be paid to create an article about Walter Baets. So I think the article has to be deleted and the user indef blocked, possibly with a sockpuppet investigation. But I leave that up to you, because I'm not that familiar with local EN wiki procedures. Kind regards, Jcb (talk) (OTRS agent) 17:01, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * After viewing the OTRS correspondence, speedied as G11 and user warned.  Mini  apolis  23:04, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I suspect that this was the best solution. The user has since made a statement on their talk page. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:16, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by Nagarukhra
Failing attempts to communicate with directly regarding their continuation of disruptive editing and page moves, I am now requesting the attention of the administrators' noticeboard.

Nagarukhra joined Wikipedia in February of this year. Since then they have initiated a series of disruptive page moves without consensus, at times requiring administrator intervention to revert. The contributions overall by Nagarukhra are by and large unconstructive, unsourced, and unhelpful.

This editor has refused to respond to all 20+ messages and notifications left on their talk page since March, while carrying on the same pattern of disruption. I feel we have exhausted communication attempts and am requesting advice on how to best proceed. Regards, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Yamaguchi%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F&action=edit&amp;section=new Yamaguchi先生] 17:41, 4 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Page move history for : page move log Regards, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Yamaguchi%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F&action=edit&amp;section=new Yamaguchi先生] 17:47, 4 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Reposting, as this is an ongoing issue and assistance in this matter is requested. Regards, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Yamaguchi%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F&action=edit&amp;section=new Yamaguchi先生] 17:31, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The vast majority of his edits are to Nagarukhra and related topics. He has never posted on an article talk page, and his first attempt at communication was today. His edits seems to be in good faith but are unsourced. you are required to advise this editor about this discussion. Let's see if he has anything to add. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:09, 14 September 2015 (UTC)


 * The editor in question was notified 4 September 2015 when this was first raised at WP:AN, and the notification stands.  While the edits may be in good faith, the continued disruptive page moves despite numerous warnings, are an issue.  The only response from this editor, after receiving continued warnings between the months of March and September, was a request to not change their (highly problematic) edits.  There is no indicator that this person has reviewed and taken heed to any of the warnings left thus far.  I am requesting additional eyes on the articles affected and a restriction on page moves if at all possible until we can confirm that this disruption will cease.  Regards, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Yamaguchi%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F&action=edit&amp;section=new Yamaguchi先生] 22:18, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I have posted a follow-up requesting they comment here ASAP. I don't want to block just yet, but if problems persist and they won't discuss then there may not be any other options. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

After yet another disruptive page move without any attempts to communicate here or with, I've blocked for 48 hours. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 04:29, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Good block. I probably would have gone for indefinite, until they start talking. From their editing pattern he/she might not even notice this block. But we can see if it makes a difference. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:27, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Sponsored content
Today I learned of Template:Toodyaypedia - Robyn Taylor, which apparently is meant as an articlespace template to provide attribution for content written by Robyn Taylor for WP:Toodyaypedia. For use in articles see Raffaele Martelli and Annie Stack. What I find problematic here is (among other issues) the "enabling grant from Lotterywest" - in effect, Lotterywest is paying to have its name mentioned on Wikipedia articles in a kind of back-door advertising. I don't think that's appropriate. I'm not entirely sure who owns the copyright for that content, or what Wikipedia-compatible license, if any, it's released under, but if an editor added edit summaries to his edits that said, "This edit brought to you by Lotterywest", we'd block them as a spam account, no matter the merits of the edits themselves. I'm not a lawyer and don't know whether the CC-BY-SA 3.0 requirement to "attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor" means they can require us to attribute the sponsor, too, but if so, I'd say we should politely decline to use that content. Personally I'd say the edit summary used by Gnangarra here should suffice as attribution; we would allow less rather than more if Robyn Taylor directly edited Wikipedia to add the content. Thoughts would be welcome. Huon (talk) 00:58, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I think this is what you meant to do. ;) Anyway, I'm not really sure about the appropriateness of the situation, but WP:PAID should be able to steer you in the right direction.  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 02:46, 16 September 2015 (UTC)


 * See also User_talk:Gnangarra
 * We do not want companies to be able to pay to get their name mentioned on Wikipedia articles where their brand name is irrelevant. The template used to be gigantic but it seems I was able to explain to Gnangarra that it was too way too big. The Quixotic Potato (talk) 05:09, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It appears that this template is used on talk pages, not articles, so the statement "We do not want companies to be able to pay to get their name mentioned on Wikipedia articles" is a straw man. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:41, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No, in reality the template was used on articles, not on talkpages, so that statement was not a straw man. The Quixotic Potato (talk) 11:59, 16 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I've listed the template for discussion. Please see Templates for discussion/Log/2015 September 16. I'm also going to remove it from the few articles on which it is transcluded until a consensus develops. Regards &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:43, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * an email has already been sent to OTRS which lays out the terms of using the content, Lotterywest is a Government agency that provides grants to community organisations to enable projects to take place... The Shire of Toodyay through it Museum are the people who received the grant and organised the Historian to do the draft articles. This is not paid editing as every article content is independent of the Author and Lotterwest there are no conditions on what material will or wont be included in the articles... At no time does the creation of these article result in any gain to anyone except Wikipedia and sum of all knowledge, all subjects meet the requirements of WP:GNG. The majority of funds from the grant are towards the production of the QR plaques with the remainder being directed to providing tourist materials to promote the project, explain how it works and to provide maps. Robyn Taylor is notable Google returns 153,000 hits on Robyn Taylor Historian and the State library of WA catalogue returns 32 publications Gnangarra 09:28, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Controversial bold move
User:Ewawer moved the page from History of the bikini to History of swimwear 18 July 2015 without discussing with anyone. A move of this size and scope is a very WP:BOLD move (the policy suggests extra care for Good Articles and above). The article was History of bikini, before it was moved. It was a good article, and a fork of the Bikini article. It was changed without any discussion. Some sloppy consequent edits were made to make it look like History of swimwear, but the it still remains essentially an article on the history of bikini. Meanwhile, I have drafted an history of swimwear to go under the current title. I need help to move the article back to its original title, and have two articles on a. History of bikini, and (b) History of swimwear. Aditya (talk • contribs) 03:17, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Having just read over the talk page, I agree that there was no consensus for the move or to broaden the scope of the article and make it a bit of a mess. I've reverted the move and all subsequent edits to it. You might want to go through that diff just to check there some good fixes to the original content that wasn't also reverted. Is your draft ready for mainspace yet? Seems like it still needs a lead at least. Let me know when it's good to go and I'll be happy to move it to . Jenks24 (talk) 04:19, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * [Ewawer notified] Blackmane (talk) 04:23, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you. The draft isn't ready to go yet. And, yes, some of the subsequent edits need to be retained. I can do that by salvaging them from history. Aditya  (talk • contribs) 04:42, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

User page deletion
My user page was deleted as "inappropriate and antagonistic", which isn't any speedy deletion criterion. Therefore, I request that it is restored and the deletion message expunged. Alakzi (talk) 16:31, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That'll be the one you created with an edit summary of "Looks like I'm gonna have to revive the wall of stupid", displaying one diff by one named user? CSD G10, as it was nominated, would seem to fit. -- zzuuzz (talk) 16:43, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Quoting other Wikipedians falls under G10 now? Alakzi (talk) 16:48, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "Pages that disparage, threaten, intimidate, or harass their subject or some other entity, and serve no other purpose". If your intention was not to disparage this user, it was not made clear. Who were you referring to with the remark about stupid? -- zzuuzz (talk) 16:54, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Edit summaries != content. If you're concerned by the edit summary, revdel it. Alakzi (talk) 16:56, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I guess the summary was pertinent to the intention of the page. How about don't create a wall of stupid? -- zzuuzz (talk) 17:02, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * How about you stop telling me what to do and restore the page that was speedily deleted out of process? MFD is that-a-way. Alakzi (talk) 17:09, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The first step should have been to talk to the deleting admin and ask for them to reverse their decision. The next step is to take the issue to deletion review.  -- GB fan 17:18, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not affording the deleting admin a courtesy they did not afford me. And this is a fine subsitute to DRV, seeing as it involves misuse of the tools; a speedy deletion criterion wasn't even cited. Alakzi (talk) 17:19, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Alakzi, do you want to crawl up on a soapbox, or do you want your page undeleted? You've been given the information about how to seek reversal of the deletion.  As for "misuse of the tools", you just now made that claim, and you would be a fool to pursue that further.  I could explain further, but my gut says you really just want to crawl on a soapbox, and I'm not likely to be as patient with that as some others right now.  Go appeal.  Continuing this nonsense further here is just disruption for disruption's sake. Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 17:34, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't understand how, in the spirit of community good faith and civility, anyone would want that crap on their UP anyway. Bizarre. Fortuna   Imperatrix Mundi  17:40, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

So, was the first user page also a "wall of stupid"? Doc  talk  04:01, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

IP edits
IP 85.76.140.223 made changes to here in same pages that blocked user FiCiW in Finnish wikipedia has tryed to made. I have restored the edits ones but IP made same edit again. What we can to do to get text back to original state.--Musamies (talk) 18:37, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Your post makes no sense. Please provide diffs of what you think is at issue. I would say in any case, that the IP you have reported seems to have made generally positive edits- some of your reversions of which could almost been construed WP:VANDALISM. Probably best to slow down on reverting him so fast. Fortuna   Imperatrix Mundi  18:44, 16 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Here are some diffs 26 July 1919  and, second pair 4 August 1944. and  , there are example--Musamies (talk) 19:17, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi, I was asked by Musamies to comment about this. I blocked FiCiW on fiwiki, because I concluded that he is the same person as WPK who is blocked until the end of this year and who has had several sockpuppet accounts on fiwiki. WPK has had problematic activity on Commons, too (see Commons:Requests for checkuser/Case/WPK, contributions of WPK~commonswiki). He is known for violating the policy about original research, edit warring and imposing his sourceless personal interpretations on articles of his interest. I must add that I haven’t followed his actions on enwiki. –Ejs-80 (talk) 09:31, 17 September 2015 (UTC) EDIT: –Ejs-80 (talk) 09:39, 17 September 2015 (UTC)


 * New IP 85.76.41.44 will made changes to same pages--Musamies (talk) 18:14, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

RfC closure challenge: Template talk:Cite doi
WP:CLOSECHALLENGE: User:Gigs's closure of Template talk:Cite doi, by his own admission, was difficult to determine: !votes were 9–6 against, and voices were raised against the close immediately.

The result has had repercussions confounded by a number of ideas:


 * Despite never being advertised to users of other citation templates such as cite isbn the close has been broadly interpreted as applying to them:
 * This is a violation of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS.
 * These users never had a voice in or were even aware of the discussion until after citation templates started being mass subst-ed out of articles.
 * Several points Gigs cited do not apply to other templates: e.g. there are no bot-generated s and few single-use ones.
 * During a follow-up RfC a user declared that a result of "no consensus" should be interpreted as maintaining the "deprecate" status quo. I don't think that's an interpretation of "no consensus" we should defend, as it invites gaming the system to sneak through a "consensus" on a poorly advertised RfC and then clinging to that "consensus" in the face of opposition.
 * Is reference data content? Gigs concludes thus: "The claim that many of these are used only once or not at all seems to indicate that this is indeed article specific content."  A -specific conclusion that editors are applying to  despite how rare one-time usage is with it.

Gigs is not responsible for the behaviour of editors who have applied the close too broadly, but these editors are using the close as a weapon to disrupt the work of other editors—the attitude is: "We have a consensus, now drop the stick."

The amount of opposition from editors who were not aware of the initial RfC to a close that was against the numerical majority suggests that perhaps there was no consensus overall. The RfC should be overturned and the discussion rebooted so:
 * the discussion can be properly advertised
 * those affected can have an honest chance to have their voices heard
 * the scope of the RfC can be clarified

Notifying:


 * Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:09, 8 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I encourage administrators to hold off on assessing this consensus until the ongoing discussion at Template talk:Cite doi to assess current support to deprecate is closed. If that discussion were to close in support of deprecation, which it's looking like at this point, then this review would be unnecessary. If it closes as "no consensus", then this would be helpful to determine what status quo we should be maintaining. ~ RobTalk 05:16, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Except there are issues of scope mentioned above—decisions made at are being applied outside its scope, and that needs to be dealt with. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:22, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I also note the timeline here. Any dispute about the application of the cite doi discussion to cite isbn has nothing to do with the cite doi RFC closure. This was close was in September 2014. It's not Gigs' fault that other people chose to apply the closure elsewhere. Also note that there was a separate discussion at Template_talk:Cite_isbn six months after the cite doi RFC closure which shows much stronger support to deprecate cite isbn so I think that's further evidence that the cite doi closure was in fact a correct understanding of consensus. The current cite doi discussion was started after those two closures once the prior RFC decision was actually started to be implemented. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:24, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that the cite doi consensus should not be applied to other templates, absolutely, but that is fairly obvious I would think. The discussion linked by Ricky above is why ISBN should be currently listed as deprecated. I would support an immediate clarification that the decision to deprecate Cite DOI should be narrowly construed, as is hinted at heavily in the original consensus decision. ~ RobTalk 05:28, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * One would think it would be obvious, but tmeplates were being subst-ed out en masse before any discussion ever took place at —and the rationale given was that there was consensus for it at . Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:45, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * But when brought up, consensus ratified the choice so where is there a problem? Nevertheless, I started a clear proper RFC at Template talk:Cite pmid (which never really had one) and Template talk:Cite wdl (which no one seemed to care about either way). I think we now have three ongoing discussions but I'm hopefully the consensus parallels each other on this issue. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:31, 8 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment To the accusation that the RFC wasn't properly advertised, the original RFC along with these notifications followed this TFD discussion and this discussion at WPT:Template namespace which were similarly related but not directly related to the same issue, namely should citation information be considered text. As noted by Jonesey95, I believe that all the individuals from the TFD discussion and the WPT discussion were notified. I'd like to know where else notifications belong that would present a neutral view from the community. This was not a one-off discussion and while the cite doi discussion can be narrowly construed, I think there's evidence supporting a broader consensus for it. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:35, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * For reference, this October 2014 edit was the cite isbn change, later updated in February 2015 and then the April-July discussion supporting deprecation. Template:cite pmid had a weaker discussion in February 2014 that didn't go anywhere but had a similar documentation change. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:42, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Another good place to announce this sort of thing would be Help talk:Citation Style 1. This is the talk page for the style that cite doi produces, and has become the centralized location for discussion of most cite-series templates. (I found this discussion via a pointer there, for instance.) User talk:Citation bot is another possibility, although the bot has been blocked for months because of some serious bugs and a lack of a maintainer. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:56, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok, I provided notice and notice about the three now on-going discussions (Template:Cite wdl, Template:Cite pmid and what is Template:Cite doi round 2). That should resolve the separate discussions issues and I hope that cuts off the lack of notice arguments. I hope the next step is not a demand for a central discussion-point. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:27, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Dexbot's edits must all reversed IMMEDIATELY. There is no consensus to allow disruption from all these orphaned templates being taken to TFD so that Ricky and his ilk can hide the evidence of their destruction. We are talking about ruining almost 60k citations with no recourse. 166.176.59.107 (talk) 07:06, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment This challenge serves no useful purpose as there is a current RfC about precisely the same proposal, namely deprecation of the cite doi template. Any consensus derived from the current RfC would override the previous RfC. Why confuse matters further? Finally as I have explained elsewhere, the previous closure did not violate WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. Including the WPMED consensus, there was previously a clear global consensus to deprecate the cite doi template, hence the closure was proper. Boghog (talk) 06:12, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Note that Boghog is the editor who most forcefully argues that the results of the RfC apply to all the others—in other words, the source of the problems I brought up. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:40, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The potential need for this derives from a comment I made at the current RfC encouraging the interpretation of a "no consensus" result as "no consensus to stop deprecation" given the previous consensus decision. I agree that review of the previous consensus decision would become worthwhile if the current RfC closes as no consensus, although this is somewhat premature. ~ RobTalk 06:25, 8 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment I think the "consensus" principle has been misused in this case.
 * "Consensus" means that everyone should agree. It does not mean that every single user has veto rights; it means that an effort should be made to reach a conclusion which respects everyone's opinions. It means that, if there are two options A and B, then, even if option A has majority support, an effort should be made to find option C, which can be agreed upon by supporters of both A and B. This has not been done in the present case. One opinion - pro-deprecating - has been unilaterally accepted and coerced over all Wikipedia editors. No attempt has been made to find an alternative which would be sufficiently good for the other editors. This is not the way conflicts should be resolved in Wikipedia. --Erel Segal (talk) 08:35, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well I think sometimes consensus in this case depends on policy grounds and there are winners and losers. There isn't really a middle ground here other than the "ignore it" option which doesn't really solve the problem. There have been editors for years with their own citation templates and the rule has generally been that we consider not just the editors who use and like to use the templates but the other editors who maybe years later go to a page and have to figure out what's going on with the page (the cite GG01 templates were two years old when I found them and ridiculously difficult to strip out, almost dozens of similar templates everywhere). The issue was: should the full citation details be found on the page itself or not? For many templates, it is permitted because those citations are repeatedly used all over the place. The reason these template "work" is because a bot in the past was doing the work for the editors here, namely an editor put up the equivalent of a bare url and a bot fixed it for them. The bot here has been disabled but that still doesn't change the real issue. We could have a bot do the full citation formating as it does with bare urls but not create subpages to do that and that would be a middle ground which frankly doesn't exist because the defenders here are pointing to a system that requires someone else to create the work for them. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:48, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There isn't really a middle ground here other than the "ignore it" option—the mind numbs when the world is thus painted in black and white—and why you've made no effort to solve whatever problems there may be outside of "destroy, destroy, destroy". And [|cite GG01] wasn't even remotely like the  and  templates. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:05, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * What middle ground do you have in mind? I support the elimination of the subpages. You've proposed four alternatives (apart from your "don't deprecate" vote) that are variations of "subpages" absent Alternative 2 which I can't figure out is anything different than what I suggest. The point is that cite GG01 was the same in that in the end it was a wrapper for another citation template, and if we ever change the main templates, these wrappers have be to checked and cleared out to make sure every parameter passes through in the exact same way. That was ugly esoteric silliness but it's still the same problem: layers and layers of template require layers of checking to verify. Here, we don't even know what every cite doi subpage is doing, and if there were errors or differences, the bot in the past forced the citation to be the same even if it was wrong. I'd rather trust the eyes of all the people on the article pages than trust that citation bot (if it created the subpage) did it perfectly right the first time or only those can figure out how to find these pages. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:41, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I proposed only alternative 4—the rest were Erel Segal, but that discussion is for that page, not here. Have you looked at how  worked?  It never used a bot and doesn't force people to use any particular style—it leaves open options such as what citation style to use (one can use s or not, etc), and there's no bot to revert to an undesired style.  Get rid of the bot and force people to hand-code the templates and it sounds to me like most of the issues you have disappear. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:09, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As Daniel Mietchen just pointed out work is actively being done on realizing alternatives—they're more than "theoretical" and all these deprecations, substings, and deletions and disrupting that work. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:29, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * By the reasoning that the templates are usually just used once, we also should remove Template:LSR and Template:LPR, which create 1-2 subpages for any software just to store the version number... (see Category:Latest stable software release templates and Category:Latest preview software release templates, about 1500 templates total) I really liked cite doi, because it usually lead to higher quality citations (except for the fact that CiteBot never used "cite conference", for example - it did frequently need manual correction, unfortunately); in particular if they are shared across multiple articles. I do not see much of a benefit of getting rid of all these articles, but I do see the benefit of better quality. I don't think inlining the citations is the way to go; instead the data should probably be migrated into WikiData and included from there, if templates are really too expensive. --Chire (talk) 09:10, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This misses the point of many of those seeking to deprecate, in my opinion. The point is that many of us, myself included, think that not including the data in-line or in a similarly easy-to-edit manner is akin to barring new editors from editing the citation because we cannot reasonably expect them to figure out how to do so. My other concerns are secondary. "Anybody can edit" is a fundamental philosophy of the English Wiki, and I see it as under attack here. That wording is possibly strong, but I think it's justified when you look at some of the comments at the current RfC, such as an IP who stated that new editors should learn programming and templates or deal with not being able to edit. ~ RobTalk 14:43, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Personally, I always found it easier to edit a Cite Doi citation by clicking the 'edit' link that appears next to the citation where it appears in the bibliography than I found it to trawl through the wikicode of the whole article to find the original invocation of a Cite Journal citation, particularly if the citation had been cited multiple times in the document. I also found it harder to edit paragraphs when they were repeatedly interrupted with numerous multi-line templates.  But that's just my experience.  Is there any actual data suggesting that the choice of citation template affects editing behaviour, or is this simply based on guessing what inexperienced users may or may not find more intuitive? Martin  (Smith609 – Talk)  18:06, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The original use of the template isn't the issue; it's subsequently finding the reference information if you weren't involved in adding the reference. If you use Cite journal, even if a new guy knows nothing about templates, he can see syntax like "|title = Hey look, I'm a title!", which is somewhat obvious. On the other hand, if he gets a Cite DOI, he sees something like " ". Unless he knows not only what a name space is but also how to find this specific template, which would be at Template:Cite doi/10.1017.2Fs0080456800030817 (note the change from a / to a . and a | to a /), he cannot change this reference at all. I think it's intuitive that this is harder for a new editor. The knowledge of name spaces alone is not something an editor can possibly know about on their first edit, not to mention the specific syntax changes needed to find the subpage. ~ RobTalk 00:38, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That's an argument against an awful lot of templates. What are new users to make of  ?  Should we deprecate that and subst them out, too?  The thing is, even if someone has used one of these templates in an article, one can still use a different template or plain s, and nothing is broken—there are even FAs that mix styles in the code—it makes no difference as long as output is uniform. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 00:55, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If there is a more accessible alternative to the template you described, then YES!, we should pursue it. That's incredibly obvious, actually. My argument is "We should make templates as easy to use and edit as possible." Are you actually arguing against that? I would think that we'd universally agree on that point. ~ RobTalk 01:40, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If there's an easier-to-use alternative that offers the same functionality, I'd use it. Until there is, deprecating such templates is simply disruptive and makes editors' jobs harder.  I get far more done with these templates than I did before I knew about them, and they make the article source overall more accessible.  Copyediting articles whose text is flooded with inline citation data is a chore—but at least I know how to do it.  What's a newbie to do?  "Where was that teh ... shit, I can't find it among all these ref tags ..." Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:58, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It is a much smaller assumption to assume that a newbie can Ctrl+F "teh" than it is to assume they know about the template name space. There is no functionality in this template currently, as no bot is running. There is also around zero chance of gaining clear consensus for such a bot task. I'd oppose any bot task that creates templates-within-templates like this, as would several of the other supporters for deprecation I imagine, based on their stated rationales. Even if consensus is not to deprecate, the use of this template is essentially finished. It's a matter of choosing whether to leave behind a mess by not deprecating or clean it up. ~ RobTalk 02:01, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Is anyone arguing for the bot to come back up? No, we're arguing against deprecating the template, not it's implementation—and as I have to keep repeating, the deprecation has led to the substing of  templates, which never used a bot.  This is disruptive and has already happened, and the justification for this disruption is this RfC close. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 02:08, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't mean to be argumentative, but that is simply untrue. There was a separate RfC for Cite ISBN that has been linked on this page already that strongly supported deprecation. Even if this RfC was wrongly used to support that deprecation originally, the follow-up RfC affirmed that consensus is to deprecate Cite ISBN. The route taken to get there may not have been ideal, as I don't know that history, but the RfC on deprecation of Cite ISBN was a clear consensus that resolves all issues regarding whether consensus supports its deprecation. ~ RobTalk 02:17, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No, the mass subst-ing happened before there was any RfC at cite isbn (in fact, without any sort of notification that subst-ing would happen), and the explicit rational given was the cite doi RfC. Further, there was not a consensus to subst out cite isbns. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:31, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I completely agree that if the events happened like that (I wasn't around, so I don't know about them), then that was wrong. But subsequently, there was a consensus to deprecate cite ISBN in particular. We are not a bureaucracy. When a mistake happens but the community later agrees that the effect of the mistake was desirable, we don't undo the mistake for the sake of process. It shouldn't have happened the way it happened, but the community subsequently endorsed the deprecation in a RfC specific to Cite ISBN. That has no bearing anymore, unless there is continued active substituting of templates in areas where there's been no consensus to date. If there is ongoing substituting of templates against consensus, feel free to point it out, and after consensus is gauged, we can undo those actions if they are against consensus. ~ RobTalk 03:48, 9 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I would make further comments regarding the closure, but since there's a new RfC already open, I don't think this discussion serves much purpose other than to fracture discussion. I would say that the consensus was weak at the previous RfC, so comments toward the new RfC should probably find a better rationale than merely citing my closure.  Gigs (talk) 00:06, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * you should just admit you screwed up and let us fix things before we lose all those citations. 166.176.56.255 (talk) 01:23, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think he screwed up, but the opposition that has risen following the close shows that perhaps the difficult-to-determine consensus wasn't really there, and there are editors who are using the RfC's close to muffle further voices or to apply the close where it is not appropriate. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:38, 9 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Restored from archive. Cunard (talk) 05:14, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Do not archive until added. Please remove the Do not archive until tag after the review is closed. (I am adding this because RfC closure reviews frequently have been archived prematurely without being resolved.) Cunard (talk) 05:14, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Closed, and Do not archive until removed. I don't think there was much to be gained from bringing this back here. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:44, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

AvicBot
Please will an admin stop User:AvicBot until this is resolved. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:02, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Bot has been stopped on this task. Avicennasis @ 10:08, 4 Tishrei 5776 / 10:08, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Edit filter guideline
Editors are invited to join a Request for Comment regarding the introduction of a proposed guideline for edit filter use. Please join the voting and discussion at Edit filter/RfC. Sam Walton (talk) 17:24, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

RfC closure review: Talk:Kosovo
I have started a closure review for Talk:Kosovo. The RfC was closed by on 5 August 2015 in response to an WP:ANRFC request. The close was hidden as a contested close by. There is discussion about the closure at Talk:Kosovo.

There is a re-closure request here at WP:ANRFC, where Red Slash wrote: "Administrators, is there any chance one of you could close this? A non-admin stepped into a really complicated RfC and kind of made a mess of closing it, and we really could use a full-on administrative close. Thank you." But per the RfC at Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Archive 12: "On the question of whether an RFC close by a non-admin can be summarily overturned by an admin, in most cases, no, and never if the only reason is that the closer was not an admin." Kingsindian put a lot of thought into his close. His close should not be summarily overturned by an admin. Therefore, I am taking the close here for review by the community. Cunard (talk) 05:03, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Do not archive until added. Please remove the Do not archive until tag after the review is closed. (I am adding this because RfC closure reviews frequently have been archived prematurely without being resolved.) Cunard (talk) 05:03, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Kinsindian did a good job on the close. I say leave it the way he closed it.   KoshVorlon  We are all Koshundefined  11:10, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Here is my version of events.

There was some disruption by a sock in the RfC comments. suggested on WP:ANRFC that the closure be handled by an admin because of the sock disruption. However, by the time I got around to closing, the sock had been blocked and its comments struck out. I asked Robert on his talk page as to his judgment about whether this needs an admin close, and he said that since the sock has been eliminated he does not see any obvious need, and told me to use my judgment. So I closed the RfC.


 * According to comments on the talk page, Red Slash thinks that my closure is vague and that it is a "supervote". I am not sure what he means by this. I explained my reasoning in detail, and my closure is unambiguous: consensus against option "#1" and consensus for option "#2 and #3", which I even clarified on the talk page. It is not a "supervote" in any form: I just assessed the consensus of a complicated discussion by looking at the arguments for all options, and determined that "#2 and #3" is the best (or the least bad).
 * As to the point about non-admin closure, my feeling is that Red Slash in not acquainted with policy here (especially since he asked for re-closure at WP:ANRFC instead of starting a closure review, as I advised on the talk page). As I explained to him before, there is nothing special in being an admin; any uninvolved editor can close RfCs, provided they explain themselves thoroughly. Please see WP:ANRFC (point 3). Kingsindian &#9821;&#9818; 13:24, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you wrote a very detailed closing, and I want to ask before assuming, did you find any consensus in that RFC, or just something close to consensus but not actually consensus? AlbinoFerret  13:51, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I am not sure exactly what you mean, perhaps my last paragraph in the RfC close is not as unambiguous as I think it is. I definitely found that the consensus is against option #1. For the rest of the options, option "#2 and #3" came the closest, and in my judgement, was close enough to be considered consensus. I clarified this on the talk page here. Kingsindian &#9821;&#9818; 14:11, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I am another editor closer. I have found when a 50/50 question in my mind arises to just as the person to make sure. While I personally would not have touched this RFC with a ten foot keyboard cable, its a good close. Since the sock issue was cleared up, I dont see why an editor couldnt have closed it. AlbinoFerret 14:17, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * If I may be allowed to comment here, firstly - no disrespect to admins - but just as trained judges are not "superhumans", persons with admin status are not somehow better qualified to cast judgement than any third party uninvolved editors. I cannot help but think that the editor to request admin closure is using this track as a sneaky "appeal" because he personally disagrees with the decision of Kingsindian. Seeing the closing statement by Kingsindian, I see all the hallmarks of a good judge who read every comment and weighed through them to arrive at his rational conclusion. If he became an admin tomorrow I doubt he will have suddenly acquired new observation methods, we are all human beings. --Edin Balgarin (talk) 22:52, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Deleted edits
I have some deleted edits below:


 * File:Court of Arbitration - Indus Waters Kishenganga Arbitration (Pakistan v. India).jpg 1 edit
 * Portal:Current events/2002 February 2 2 edits
 * User talk:Awardgive/Archive 50 1 edit
 * User talk:A Texas Historian/Archive 50 1 edit
 * User talk:A Texas Historian/Archive 2 1 edit
 * User talk:A Texas Historian/Archive 1 1 edit
 * File:Crowd.jpg 1 edit
 * IPad Pro 1 edit
 * Draft:HolidayJet 1 edit
 * User:User:Sagardev1998/guestbook/icon 1 edit
 * I'm Rose, Darling 1 edit
 * Talk:September 1913 2 edits
 * Requests for adminship/16ANJOHN 1 edit
 * Articles for deletion/Log/Tomorrow 1 edit
 * Category:Articles with unsourced statements from January 2, 2015 1 edit
 * Category:Articles with unsourced statements from December 24, 2014 1 edit
 * Category:Days in 2004 1 edit
 * Category:Days in 2003 1 edit
 * Talk:Andy Mackie 1 edit
 * Https en.wikipedia.org wiki Main Page 3 edits
 * Http en.wikipedia.org wiki main page 2 edits
 * Edouard Campos 1 edit
 * Template:Primary education 2 edits
 * Template:Primary and secondary education 7 edits
 * Kennedy number 2 edits
 * Talk:Territory (disambiguation) 1 edit
 * Category:Articles lacking in-text citations from Aug 2015 1 edit
 * Category talk:NA-importance NIOSH articles 1 edit
 * Template:RfA closed 1 edit
 * The use of missing addends in early education 2 edits
 * Talk:List of chess variants/Archive 2 2 edits
 * WOMAD Sri Lanka 2005 1 edit
 * Talk:Al Khor 1 edit
 * WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk/Archives/January 2012 1 edit
 * Triangle circumcenter vector 1 edit
 * RagTime (computer program) 1 edit
 * Dr. Willis N. Pitts, Jr. 2 edits
 * Willis N. Pitts, Jr. 1 edit
 * Nested (disambiguation) 1 edit
 * Portal talk:Current events/2014 January 25 1 edit
 * Module (category theory) 1 edit
 * Portal:Current events/Calendar/2013/363 2 edits
 * Talk:Internet Explorer 12 5 edits
 * February 29, 1900 1 edit
 * Category:1967 by day 1 edit
 * Category:Exceptional common years 1 edit
 * Exceptional common year starting on Friday 1 edit
 * Exceptional common year starting on Wednesday 1 edit
 * Exceptional common year starting on Monday 1 edit
 * Talk:Groupoid (disambiguation) 1 edit
 * Groupoid (disambiguation) 3 edits
 * Portal:Current events/Sidebar/June 2015 2 edits
 * 12th month 1 edit
 * 11th month 1 edit
 * 10th month 1 edit
 * 9th month 1 edit
 * 8th month 1 edit
 * 7th month 1 edit
 * 6th month 1 edit
 * 5th month 1 edit
 * 4th month 1 edit
 * 3rd month 1 edit
 * 2nd month 1 edit
 * 1st month 1 edit
 * Twelfth month 1 edit
 * Eleventh month 1 edit
 * Tenth month 1 edit
 * Ninth month 1 edit
 * Eighth month 1 edit
 * Seventh month 1 edit
 * Sixth month 1 edit
 * Fifth month 1 edit
 * Fourth month 1 edit
 * Third month 1 edit
 * Second month 1 edit
 * First month 1 edit
 * Portal:Current events/DateHeader2/doc 1 edit
 * Portal talk:Current events/DateHeader2 1 edit
 * 2034 FIFA World Cup 1 edit
 * Vowel-ban number 1 edit

Can an administrator please find some recent deleted edit by me that is not in the above list? Do you, an administrator, know what the page name was? GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 04:23, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I took a look and the first few were all in the list above. What's the purpose of this exercise? &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:52, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't understand this either.  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 03:45, 19 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I just emailed you a complete list of your deleted contribs (yes, ugly plain text but it should be sufficient). Figured that would be the best way.  Since they all belong to you, there shouldn't be a problem with you given access to them, as you own the copyright.  If there is one in particular that you need to get more info on, email me and I can help.  I will be out much of the day, but I'm here most every day at least some, so as long as this isn't time sensitive, I'm pretty sure I can help. Otherwise, any other admin can help do the same.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 13:30, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Presidential candidate is Wikipedian?
Hey could somebody check Harry Braun, there is an editor there August 18 through August 27 who claims to be the candidate himself, but it doesn't look like any measures to authenticate have been taken. — 206.188.36.153 (talk) 18:35, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As much as I hate to do so when I do believe the person behind the account is legit, this security measure is necessary for their and our protection. ☺ ·  Salvidrim!   ·  &#9993;  16:10, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Wheel war?
I wonder what's happening with the page Farnham Park FC? Deletion, restoring and so on.. Not what I expect from administrators who have the tools to block editors for edit warring. And we have the author in #wikipedia-en-help questioning the promise that  kept to restore the article, and it was an embarrassment for me. Hmm.. Regards— ☮ JAaron95  Talk  09:45, 19 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you, . I had been intending to self-report this sorry saga, but I was waiting to see what said or did before I did so. There is no excuse really, admins should be expected to discuss rather than revert, especially as it's over a simple matter of whether this team meets the notability criteria for sports teams and players. I've posted a message on Geni's talk page, but perhaps I should have done so before deleting. I think the link referred to above is this and/or this <b style="font-family:chiller;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> -  talk to me?  11:11, 19 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Did you ask any of the participating administrators before bringing it here? Lankiveil (speak to me) 11:07, 19 September 2015 (UTC).
 * I wonder what is there to ask? Warnings can be given to editors who edit war.. You want me to give them warnings?— ☮ JAaron95  Talk  11:21, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Looking at this talk page comment, it's clear that there was some confusion over the notability of local football clubs. The article has been deleted and now salted, I don't believe more action is required unless there is an attempt to unprotect and restore this article. Liz Read! Talk! 11:31, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Confusions should be clarified by discussing and not by deleting and restoring. Nawlin deleted the article at 15:16, 18 September 2015. This was then restored moved to sandbox by Gene at 16:41, 18 September 2015. At 20:50, 18 September 2015, the page was again deleted by Nawlin, since the user again created a live article. But the page was again restored by Gene at 20:54, 18 September 2015 before leaving that single line comment on Nawlin's talk page. Finally, the page was deleted by Jim, before discussing with Gene. And I don't think those are discussions. I thought discussion meant exchange of opinions and I don't see them anywhere. Deleting and Salting? That can't prevent admins from continuing the same, can they? Such admin actions are highly unacceptable and I can't accept fellow kindhearted admins trying to nullify their actions by asking me why I came to ANI before individually asking admins why they did so. I quote from WP:WHEELWAR,
 * Regards— ☮ JAaron95  Talk  12:09, 19 September 2015 (UTC) Edited 13:25, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Also for the note, I'm in the verge of requesting an arbitration. — ☮ JAaron95  Talk  12:27, 19 September 2015 (UTC) Edited 13:38, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * We need to hear from NawlinWiki and Geni before forming judgements. NE Ent 12:38, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps this should go to deletion review, seeing as it is a contested speedy deletion? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 12:47, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes. Part of this discussion should go to Deletion review. Regards— ☮ JAaron95  Talk  12:53, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree this does not look good. Before escalating the situation we should give the three admins involved (, and ) an opportunity to account for their actions and provide some assurance that they would act differently in future. It might also be helpful if someone could provide a detailed timeline of what happened. Regards &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:59, 19 September 2015 (UTC)


 * We must hear from the admin before doing anything. WP:WHEEL clearly states " Wheel warring is when an administrator's action is reversed by another admin, but rather than discussing the disagreement, administrator tools are then used in a combative fashion to undo or redo the action." (emphasis added).  If the admin involved understand and accept the actions of each other, then it isn't wheel warring, it is just a confusing mess.  As none of the admin involved have complained, it is premature to say it definitively is wheel warring, and an Arb case would be dismissed as out of process, due to a lack of evidence.  What happened?  That is a good question, but only the involved admin can say. Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 13:22, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Concur. These are all veteran admins.  Let's hear from them.  Plenty of time for someone to file a request later, but let's do them the courtesy that their service to the wiki demands by hearing from them first. That will likely dispose of the matter.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:40, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * From the logs, this appears to be the chronology:
 * Article 1: created the page, A7 tagged by, deleted by ; time: 23:04, September 17, 2015‎ to 06:23, September 18, 2015
 * Article 2: created the page,  tagged as A7, deleted by ; time: 14:21, September 18, 2015‎ to 14:25, September 18, 2015
 * Article 3: created the page,  tagged as A7, deleted by ; time: 14:32, September 18, 2015‎ to 15:16, September 18, 2015
 * Article 1, 2, 3: restored and moved the article to 's sandbox but left behind a redirect from article space; time: 16:41, September 18, 2015
 * Article 4: then converted the redirect to an article and it was deleted A7 by ; time 20:44, September 18, 2015 to 20:50, September 18, 2015
 * Article 4: then reverted that deletion at 20:54, September 18, 2015
 * Article 4: then deleted that at 06:40, September 19, 2015
 * Article 4 is an unattributed copy-paste of the sandbox and if restored, it should have the history moved back. Given the number of independent creations and authors (at least three creating authors for the four articles) there's more than meets the eye . &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  13:48, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment I don't know if it has much relevance to this discussion, but at least the last of the SPA's creating this article has a self-declared COI. Also and  are obvious socks of the blocked , even editing each other's pages. I'd block them, but this probably wouldn't be good timing <b style="font-family:chiller;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> -  talk to me?  14:36, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Does a football club at that level have paid officials? It appears that they are a new club, playing in what seems to be a rather local league, though possibly someone better at maths than me can calculate what level of the pyramid. Judging by the trees that line the pitch in the Facebook images of the first home match, I should imagine that they do not play at Old Trafford, nor likely will this half-century. Notability I shan't get into, but the COI seems trivial.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:45, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * COI is evident. Because Morganmcl in #wikipedia-en-help, told me that he will be meeting the manager of the club. And he was always in a hurry. Regards— ☮ JAaron95  Talk  14:53, 19 September 2015 (UTC)


 * ,, and are ✅ and blocked and/or tagged accordingly. Thealdershotwriter is the master.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:55, 19 September 2015 (UTC)


 * And that is an impressive bit of newbie biting. FarnhamParkFC was blocked for procedural reasons and the other two have been used in accordance with policy.©Geni (talk) 15:51, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Newbie biting? The master was created in 2012. Although FarnhamParkFC was soft-blocked (not a decision I agree with - sorry ), the account was already a sock, thus the idea that they could create another account is not in accordance with any policy I'm aware of. As for the overall disruption, promoting an article using three different accounts is obviously disruptive socking. Perhaps you should focus on what others here were waiting for you to comment on rather than incorrectly criticizing the CheckUser block.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:30, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * raw age doesn't mean much when they make 3 edits and disappear for a couple of years. I don't think anyone dealing with them was confused by the situation. Ask them to stick to one account sure but throwing blocks around is a little excessive.©Geni (talk) 16:36, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Long comment is long.

Lets start with the human side. I was trying to help someone in IRC. I know from experience of how the UK local media works that even football teams so far down the English football pyramid that they couldn't see the top with a very powerful telescope will pass or come close to passing the general notability guidelines. Local newspapers have worked out that they can send a journalist around a random selection the local teams at the weekend and get a bunch of content. Over the course of a season this results in pretty much everyone getting covered (due to various market factors and intense conservatism among local media types most of this won't be on-line though). Thus A7 does not apply. Prod or AFD may be a better choice. Thus I said that if he could find some actual refs the article should pass A7. This creates a problem when an admin goes and deletes it anyway. Since we are meant to be being nice to new editors I pull the deletion, explain why and go off to write about Cut steel jewellery‎. I'm online for the next 4 hours or so but sadly I need to sleep from time to time so I'm not around when 9 hours later it gets deleted again. Happily JAaron95 appears to have resolved the IRC issues so I don't see the need for any further action there.

Okay policy side. Two people have cited Notability_(sports) one going so far as to link to the Association_football subsection. This deals with players not teams. If you are going to cite guidelines please read them first. The relevant guideline is Notability (organizations and companies). Local newspapers pass the Independence of sources and Audience test (for now anyway, readership is falling). That leaves us with Depth of coverage. I would argue that we have passed the standard for A7 at this point. The news pieces tend to be written as human interest so they tend to pass the depth of coverage requirements. In terms of online sourcing those given in the article again edge it past A7.

Someone raised the issue of the article history in the cut and paste move. Since FarnhamParkFC, Morganmcl and Thealdershotwriter are all the same person all the copyrightable interest is held by Morganmcl thus there is no need for them to preserve the history.

The dust appears to have settled now anyway as long as our over keen checkuser friend pulls at least one of the blocks and people read the guidelines they are citing I don't see the need for any further action.©Geni (talk) 16:32, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Expanded timeline, based on Spaceman Spiff's above:
 * Article 1: created the page, A7 tagged by, deleted by ; time: 23:04, September 17, 2015‎ to 06:23, September 18, 2015
 * Article 2: created the page,  tagged as A7, deleted by ; time: 14:21, September 18, 2015‎ to 14:25, September 18, 2015
 * Article 3: created the page,  tagged as A7, deleted by ; time: 14:32, September 18, 2015‎ to 15:16, September 18, 2015
 * Article 1, 2, 3: restored and moved the article to 's sandbox but left behind a redirect from article space; time: 16:41, September 18, 2015
 * Article 4: then converted the redirect to an article and it was deleted A7 by ; time 20:44, September 18, 2015 to 20:50, September 18, 2015
 * Article 4: then reverted that deletion at 20:54, September 18, 2015
 * Geni leaves note on NawlinWiki's page.
 * Article 4: then deleted that at 06:40, September 19, 2015
 * Jimfbleak comments on Geni's talkpage

Since the admins involved were deleting / undeleting different content (I think), and communicating fairly respectfully which each other, I don't see this as wheel warring. I do see it as a group of admins collectively causing unnecessary drama by being hasty; lacking BLP / copyvios issues, there's no urgency to delete / undelete an article, and the wiki-zen thing to do was leave it place during discussion and utilize the WP:AFD process, or alternatively move into the Draft: namespace pending discussion. NE Ent 17:05, 19 September 2015 (UTC)


 * To clarify leaving behind a redirect from article space was me forgetting to untick the relevant box.©Geni (talk) 17:07, 19 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm in the same park as here.  I don't have a problem keeping it open for a bit so the community can weigh in, but I'm not sure it is completely required.  As I suspected, I don't see wheel warring, I see a weird clustermess of bit usage on the same title but different articles by three admin that just happened to notice it at the same time.  It is unusual, but it happens, and since they were communicating and not making claims of bad faith here, I can't fathom any action that needs to be taken.  Stuff happens.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 23:22, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Yogesh saini
The subject article has been tagged for CSD A7 <S>twice</S> few times and the tag has been removed by creator. The article hence doesn't get included in the speedy del category, which I suppose would be the place where admins frequent and delete the stuff. Hence posting note here for attention. Or is this wrong venue? §§ Dharmadhyaksha §§ {Talk / Edits} 09:02, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The correct course of action would be to replace the tag and warn the user with ; in this case, however, I've just deleted it. Yunshui <sup style="font-size:90%">雲 <sub style="font-size:90%">水 11:17, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks! §§ Dharmadhyaksha §§ {Talk / Edits} 11:40, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Free bleeding
Looks like Talk:Free bleeding still exists, even though Free bleeding was deleted. —danhash (talk) 07:43, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Marked it for deletion. In the future, please use for talk pages of deleted pages(more info here). Regards— ☮  JAaron95  Talk  08:01, 20 September 2015 (UTC)Edited --12:03, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * FYI . When an admin deletes a page they usually delete the talk page as well - though occasionally one gets missed. In this case a bot deleted the page and they are not programmed to get the talk page as well. Thus as JAaron95 states you just need to add the "db-talk" template to take care of things. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 17:13, 20 September 2015 (UTC)


 * It probably isn't known by non-admin, but we have two ways to delete a page: through Twinkle, which has a checkbox, and through the direct interface. This doesn't count the other scripts we use at AFD and such.  I'm not sure how many total ways we have to access the same function, to be honest.  Sometimes, we just forget to tick a box. I didn't even know we had a bot cleaning up after us janitors, for that matter. Regardless, JAaron95 is correct, just tag with that template and someone will be along soon after. Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 17:18, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Kazakhstan
Would someone please indefinitely semi-protect the articles listed in this WP:COIN thread? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:06, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * After looking at the log, I went ahead and indef SP'ed it. The other articles should be taken to RFPP if needed, but that one was obviously the leading target for this round of SPA POV/COI.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 19:52, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:50, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Request closure review for RfC at Monsanto Legal Cases
I request a closure review by any editor with no history or involvement in the issue or the cluster of controversial issues around Monsanto, agrochemicals, and the food industry to please review the closure that was done by an editor at RfC: Should this article mention current lawsuits by U.S. cities against Monsanto? The close that was delivered seems to be strangely oblique to me, neither solidly giving a resolution to the actual concrete question of the RfC, and also peppering in odd aspersions. The reason that i request a closure review is that the editor who did the closure, JzG aka Guy, is definitely involved in the subject area and i had specifically asked for a neutral, uninvolved editor to do the closing. User JzG did the closing despite knowing that he is involved in the subject matter, and also personally with me in the past, in an oppositional manner. I simply wish to see a closure by an uninvolved and fair-minded editor. Others also share my concerns about the neutrality of the closer, as shown in this discussion which also provided multiple links that clearly shows that the closing editor is not at all neutral in regard to the subject matter. I have asked editor JzG / Guy to voluntarily revert his closing to allow another editor to make the closing call, and he did not do so. This is seen at his talk page where other editors also requested the same. Please help. I would appreciate the time and unbiased mind of any totally uninvolved and neutral editor on this question. Please be totally uninvolved with the whole controversy cluster around agrochemicals and the chemical industry in general. Thank you for your consideration. SageRad (talk) 18:32, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I do very much encourage other admins to read the above, assess its implicit assumptions of the OP's zealous belief in his own rectitude and neutrality, and especially what constitutes "fair-minded" and "involved".
 * SageRad is an anti-GMO and anti-Monsanto activist. I have no significant history of edits in respect of either GMOs or Monsanto. I've spent a lot of time trying to explain to SageRad the fallacious nature of his apparent belief that anybody who is not vehemently anti-GMO and anti-Monsanto, is by definition pro-GMO and pro-Monsanto. He does not want to hear this, or indeed anything else that runs counter to his internal narrative of heroic advocacy of The Truth&trade;, and hence he will not accept an RfC close which only gives him most of what he wants, but falls short of giving carte blanche endorsement for every conceivable anti-Monsanto story he might bring along.
 * Frankly, I think SageRad is a huge time sink whenever he edits any article related to GMOs or Monsanto. And that is my entirely fair-minded appraisal of the situation. He is not capable of checking his bias at the door (e.g. this edit where he adds to a WP:BLP an accusation of censorship based on the article subject removing SageRad's own comments from his blog - and SageRad edit-warred over this; he has no clue what neutral means in respect of his own agenda). Guy (Help!) 19:00, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks for that, Guy. Please note that i did not represent myself as neutral, but i did request someone neutral to review an RfC, which is the purpose of holding an RfC in the first place -- to get outside perspective on a topic, and then have it assessed in as neutral way as possible. I did not close the RfC myself because i am an involved editor, and that would defeat the purpose. Your closing of it also defeated the purpose. Please be accurate when you attribute statements to me, as you were inaccurate above.
 * Secondly, i am not an ideological anti-Monsanto activist, and i reject that aspersion. I have a long view on the history of Monsanto and harms the company has caused to people and the planet, because that is rooted in the reality of the company. I am for integrity and i wish Wikipedia to represent reality as best arrived at through the good faith dialogue among editors of many different perspectives, to try to work out the best approximation to a neutral point of view as possible. I am very serious about this. Often, my role at an article is to try to balance it out so that it does not read like a brochure in defense of the chemical industry, but that is to counterbalance the bias that is already embodied in a page.
 * Why do you have objections to my calling out that you are involved this topic, and to ask for a closure review by someone who is not involved? As for your aspersions, i don't find them appropriate or accurate, personally and i think your attacking tone is uncalled for, and further shows the problem of bias that gives me pause that you were the closer of the RfC. SageRad (talk) 19:18, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You have made the claim of being involved before. I have yet to see anyone other than your fellow anti-GMO activists agree with this claim. Your statement of the case highlights, as usual, your perceptual filters. You have an issue with cognitive dissonance, and you seem to think that anybody who id not your friend is your enemy. That is not the case, and the battleground mentality implicit in your approach is, in my view, a serious problem. Guy (Help!) 20:51, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You seem to be missing my point, again. Let me put it very simply. I am involved. You are involved. I was seeking an uninvolved editor. I resent your use of the phrase "your fellow anti-GMO activists" as well, for the insinuations upon my character that it contains. Your assertions of my "perceptual filters" and the rest of your comment here is also full of aspersion. Please cease and desist. I am aware that people have biases of various kinds, and this is precisely why we need outside and neutral eyes. That is why RfC's exist, and that is why i am troubled that you closed the RfC despite being involved, and then refused to undo your closing when asked, and now you are actively arguing against my request to have the closing reviewed. All of these add up to "thou doth protest too much". SageRad (talk) 21:05, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This seems absolutely ridiculous! It appears that SageRad is simply calling for an uninvolved admin to take a look at the closure.  In response to that, Guy has launched personal attacks and is repeatedly commenting on the editor rather than the edits.  Guy, why not take a backward step and let an uninvolved admin look at this.  We are all, including admins, accountable for our actions. DrChrissy (talk) 21:25, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * See the comments of AGK on the RFAR. I am uninvolved. SageRad sees this as "skeptics v. integrity" (explicitly so, again in his statement on the RFAR). That is absolutely emblematic of the problem: skepticism is the default in the scientific method, and the pro-science editors are interested in integrity not supporting an agenda. Guy (Help!) 21:32, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well if you are uninvolved, you have nothing to worry about by letting another admin look. This is simply like getting a second opinion from a Dr. DrChrissy (talk) 21:37, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * N.B. Skepticism is a quality, an attribute, that i admire. On the other hand, there is a particular ideological group that has co-opted the word and use it currently to promote an agenda that is pro-industry without the skepticism that is implied by their moniker, and actually shut down skeptical inquiry into their claims when it challenges them. The latter sort of self-named "skeptics" are who i must refer to as "skeptoids" to make the distinction. Skepticism is a quality i highly admire, and cultivate within myself in questioning my own assumptions as well as those of others. Gorski and Novella do not define science. Real working scientists define science every day, and generally with integrity, though sometimes with less integrity. I've worked in science and done science, and i've seen how the endeavor works in the real world. I've seen plenty of skeptical inquiry within science, and i've sometimes seen questionable ethics at play was well. Integrity is what i respect, in dialogue, in science, and in life. SageRad (talk) 22:01, 22 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Support close, no need to re-open. BMK (talk) 22:02, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Care to offer a reason, justification, any commentary on the issues that i have brought to the table, other than a vote? To engage in the dialogue? SageRad (talk) 22:03, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The close was an appropriate result of the RfC, that's all that matters. BMK (talk) 23:05, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * SageRad clearly does not have the same view. Why do we not all just sit back and let an indisputably uninvolved admin take a look.  There is nothing to hide here - is there? DrChrissy (talk) 23:14, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, let's decide if it's worth the energy to do so at all, instead of simply taking SageRad's view as being gospel, considering that he or she is a partisan requesting the reexamination of an RfC that went against them. We generally don't jump to do that without good reason, and I haven't seen one yet. BMK (talk) 00:27, 23 September 2015 (UTC) BMK (talk) 00:24, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Point of clarification: The result of the RfC didn't exactly go against me, but it just seemed to be strangely written and partisan in some judgments that it made, with some language that the closing editor never clarified when asked, and not giving a solid statement on the actual question of the RfC itself. It seemed vague and evasive to me. Ultimately, i am simply seeking a process that has integrity, in which another editor who is not involved in the topic would take the time to read the RfC and make a summary of the results from a less biased point of view. It seemed clear to me that the RfC results from uninvolved comments clearly shows consensus in favor of including the content, and i could have closed the RfC myself, but i chose not to, as it seemed appropriate to have an uninvolved person do the closing, and after all of the work of the RfC, i would like everyone involved to have that peace of mind of having a good process. SageRad (talk) 00:52, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you've made all that clear, and I'm saying that there's no need for re-examination just because you're unhappy with the result. Almost every RfC ends up with someone unhappy with the outcome.  You've made your request, and my opinion is that the close is just fine. BMK (talk) 01:29, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Weak Support for Overturn of Close, but .... - This is a difficult and complicated case. On the one hand, Wikipedia is not a courtroom, and some of the usual rules of courtrooms do not apply.  On the other hand, one that should apply is that it is not enough that justice be done; it is also necessary that the appearance of justice be maintained.  There is a history between User:SageRad and User:JzG aka Guy.  The history does not reflect well on SageRad, and is self-inflicted by SageRad, but it is important not only that the close have been fair, but that the close appear to have been fair.  The history is that Guy is one of several editors who have cautioned SageRad about tendentious and combative editing, and that SageRad has taken all cautions as threats and as bullying, and is unable to accept advice.  (User:SageRad also has a history of insisting that on a right of free speech on private web sites including the WMF servers.)  Guy acted in good faith in closing, and made a reasonable close, but SageRad, who sees other editors who disagree as bullies and enemies, wants a perfect close, by an absolutely uninvolved editor.  Although SageRad is a remarkably combative editor even compared to other anti-GMO editors, many of whom are combative, it would be the path of discretion to dispel any lingering questions of whether the close was WP:INVOLVED.  SageRad has made a mess by treating every editor who tries to caution him as an enemy or a bully or a heavy.  However, there are three ways that we can deal with the mess.  First, leave it as a mess.  Leave the close, which was itself reasonable, but which may leave other anti-GMO editors claiming bias.  Second, overturn the close and request a completely uninvolved closer, possibly one who hasn't dealt with SageRad.  Third, topic-ban SageRad from articles on genetic modification as a disruptive and destructive editor.  The community can do the first, or the second, and I think that the second is the course of prudence and greater restraint.  The community can also do the third, but I would suggest that, since ArbCom is about to open a case on genetic modification, ArbCom can examine the disruptive track record of SageRad and determine whether a topic-ban is sufficient.  Robert McClenon (talk) 02:27, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Wow. That is a remarkably contentious remark. I appreciate the support, but with friends like this, who needs enemies? You are saying that i am a disruptive and destructive editor? I am seeking integrity and balance in Wikipedia articles. I am seeking to transcend ideological polarization, and to represent reality as it is, as we can best determine it through reliable sources. These comments sound like aspersions, followed by a threat of advocating for a topic ban for me. What did i do? I requested an uninvolved editor to close an RfC. And i insist on freedom of speech. That is what i do. Is that a crime in the New Wikipedia? SageRad (talk) 03:09, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * An "uninvolved editor" has already closed the RfC, which is why there's no reason to pursue your request. That you don't recognize him as uninvolved is your problem, not ours. BMK (talk) 04:27, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The editor is not uninvolved, and shows a pre-existing ideological bias in the topical area. That is not my problem, but a problem of Wikipedia's integrity. It is not only my assessment. This is not about the appearance of justice, but justice itself.
 * I cannot believe the level of ridiculousness that my simple request to have a clearly uninvolved editor close the RfC, has resulted in this editor who wrote so disrespectfully to me above, to then go right over to the ArbCom case and advocate for a topic ban upon me (in veiled language but as clear as daylight), simply for voicing a serious concern about integrity of the process that is also shared by many others, and for which there is evidence. This is sick and twisted. This is nastiness here. This is partisan gaming on a deeper level, and it is rotting away Wikipedia from the core. There is no longer apparently even a semblance of justice within the system that is supposed to help editors obtains a semblance of justice in the normal content editing. You people ought to be ashamed of yourselves. The very act of requesting an uninvolved editor should not bring about attacks of this sort, followed by an action to pursue a topic ban. This is ridiculous. It's intimidation. It's "shut up and go home, little lamb, you've lost your way"... the twisting of things in such a way. Wow. SageRad (talk) 08:15, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment - I am on neither "side" in the GMO debate that is so polarized. I have seen POV pushing and extreme behavior on both sides ...to the point that many of these involved editors assume the very worst of others and react accordingly.  That mentality cannot persist here.  Whether or not JzG is involved, this was a good close and it was fair, neutral and policy-based - but JzG, you should know that you are going to catch hell because several of the Arb parties have said you're involved.  Even if you think you're not, I think you should know that closing an RfC on these issues is going to escalate the battleground behavior rather than calm things down -- and for that reason judgment would suggest that you stay away from using the bit in this topic area.  My two cents. <b class="nounderlines" style="border:1px solid #999;background:#fff"><span style="font-family:papyrus,serif"><b style="color:#000;font-size:100%">Minor</b><b style="color:#f00;font-size:80%">4th</b> </b> 03:40, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Some parties to the Arbitration Request may have said that Guy was involved, but my recollection is that at least one Arb specifically refuted the request to add him as a party, saying that Guy was just doing his job. It seems to me that the opinion of a neutral Arb pulls more weight that the opinions of partisans, so there's really no basis for saying that Guy is "involved", especially when the close was "fair, neutral and policy-based."  I wish more Admins would do the right thing more often instead of playing it safe. BMK (talk) 04:23, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You do have a point. <b class="nounderlines" style="border:1px solid #999;background:#fff"><span style="font-family:papyrus,serif"><b style="color:#000;font-size:100%">Minor</b><b style="color:#f00;font-size:80%">4th</b> </b> 04:34, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * JzG can be described as involved, even though he has no history editing Monsanto articles, base on: his comment on the recent Arbcom filing, his past block of SageRad, and, not mentioned before, his significant interaction history with Jytdog, who made a number of statements in the rfc opposing inclusion.Dialectric (talk) 09:07, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Interactions with an editor in an administrative capacity (eg, blocking someone) are not 'involved'. If he was involved he wouldnt have been able to block him. Interactions with another editor are also not 'involved' or even relevant unless there is some suggestion Jzg was canvassed by the other editor in the dispute (which I cannot find any evidence of). Long term editors and admins (when both are very active in the 'dispute' areas of wikipedia - JzG because he is an admin, Jytdog because...well Jytdog) will undoubtedly interact significantly.
 * The only problematic bit is the arbcom comment. As JzG's comment at arbcom expresses an opinion on the argument itself (he states a stance towards the scientific consensus on GM food) and was made *before* he closed the RFC, there is a credible argument that he would be involved and biased towards one side. However having looked at his close I cant see any indication that any bias he *may* have affected his judgement or his closing rationale. Essentially as per above, the closure was in line with policy and the arguments provided, however he probably should have left it to someone else. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:34, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I can accept this assessment somewhat. I just looked back into JzG's edit history and found that he's not been especially interested in the GMO / agrochemical cluster of topics much in the last few months. However, some of his recent comments on pages like Kevin Folta and Vani Hari as well as his ArbCom statement as you mention, do show that he has a polarized vision that tends to lump people like me into a strong category of "anti-GMO" and that he thinks that people he's classified as such are ignorant of science and essentially fringe elements. I realize that he wrote these comments a few days after the closure of the RfC, but they do still show his essential outlook and to me it reads like bias that would make me uncomfortable submitting to his judgment in this matter. I don't think that he's able to put down his perspective long enough to fairly assess an RfC like this one. The RfC question was simply whether to include some well-sourced lawsuits against Monsanto regarding PCBs. The consensus among outside comments was simply "yes". SageRad (talk) 10:58, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Support review of close Since the user JzG or Guy (same), is involved with a strong POV, and now begins to frame rather neutral editors such as SageRad above as activist (which also hints at the emotional level of involvement). Thus, the user is not the right person to close a related RFC. In particular because in that RFC the user injected his opinion as well. prokaryotes (talk) 11:19, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Support close - This is a confected attempt to have another bite of the cherry. The close was fair and reasoned. The closer gave reasonable conditions for insertion - coverage in national media - and these conditions have not been met. There is no consensus for insertion and this whole affair has now generated much heated discussion and has spread to several noticeboards and touched ArbCom. Claiming that there is "a reasonable consensus" for insertion in the face of an RfC to the contrary is ridiculous. --Pete (talk) 11:27, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Support review of close - I'd very much like to see an uninvolved admin come in and review the text-wall RfC, the close, and all parties involved. I also doubt that is going to happen because of the ArbCom case pending. In the meantime the ongoing standoff at the article continues, where 3 editors and one admin refuse to allow information that directly pertains to the atricle to be included. That's how I see it, anyway. Jus  da  fax   11:50, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * So what are you saying? You'd like it to be reviewed but you doubt it's going to happen because of the ArbCom case, but you start off a new discussion on your perception of the situation anyway??? And unless you are responding to my comment below, please don't place your comments directly after mine. I placed it below all the !votes for a reason. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 12:00, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

User:SageRad inserted the material saying that there was "a reasonable consensus". This goes directly against the RfC closure and I see no other authority for the insertion. Perhaps SageRad could leave this topic area alone. There seem to be any number of more experienced editors in this subject area who have more respect for wikipractice. If consensus for insertion ever develops then there will be no need for appeals and discussion and edit-warring; someone will insert the material and it will stick. Because consensus. --Pete (talk) 11:22, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, i did insert the material. This speaks directly to the need for a clear close on the RfC, because you apparently read the closing to not support the insertion of the content, whereas i read it to support it, though lukewarm and strange in its language. This is a direct consequence of not having a clear answer to the RfC question in the closing, although i do interpret it to support including the comment. The RfC was closed by JzG here with the phrase "Solid consensus for including those with national coverage", which does include the lawsuits in question, which was the exact question of the RfC. More is explained by JzG in this discussion, although still in strangely vague language in my opinion. So, are you really claiming that the closing does not support including the content, and if so, by what reasoning? Thanks. SageRad (talk) 12:09, 23 September 2015 (UTC)\
 * The comments of the closing admin: "…those [cases] which are not subject of national level coverage in mainstream sources should not be included…". If you thought there was support for insertion, then why did you lodge a request for review here and stamp around on every noticeboard you could find including WP:RFAR to complain about the closure? --Pete (talk) 12:20, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


 * By the way, Pete/Skyring's very strong diatribing against me, and what i would call abuse of dialogue, is apparent in the latter discussion, including his wheat-pasting of posters mocking me with speechifying people's photos, and his clear mischaracterization of thew situation with this accusation: "We've spent far too long on this RfC which commenced because SageRad couldn't edit war his way to his preferred outcome" and more like this: "What I object to is the behaviour of crusaders who want Wikipedia to reflect their views without question, and when someone questions their behaviour, that someone must be an agent of the Great Evil." .... In this sort of language, Pete/Skyring has taken a simple question about content and brought it to a battleground level. Yes, i advocate for including these lawsuits on the page about lawsuits involving Monsanto. Yes, i have a healthy distrust of Monsanto as a company based on its history. But no, i am not a "crusader" who wants to control Wikipedia. I want to take part in the healthy dialogue among different perspectives, and use Wikipedia's guidelines and mechanisms like an RfC, for instance, to work out differences. How he misrepresents and polarizes. SageRad (talk) 12:15, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I'd have to check SageRad's addition in detail. It looks to me as if it meets the criteria of being sourced to news sources of national reputation.
 * There appears to be a body of thought here that conflates having an opinion with being involved. The two are not the same. My "history" with SageRad consists basically of explaining policy to someone who doesn't want to hear it (see his edits to and comments on the talk page). The close basically supported SageRad, but placed a limit on dumpster-diving to build a case attacking a company against whom he has a strong agenda regardless of his protestations to the contrary.
 * As has been noted in many RfCs related to heavily polarised topics, it is not possible to close the RfC without making someone unhappy. The vexing thing here is that SageRad actually got what he wanted (material can be included) but clearly wants to be able to interpret that as a mandate to include everything, however insignificant, and the policy-based arguments against inclusion within the RfC make a good case that this should not happen. And that is the meat of his complaint: he did not get a free pass to include every anti-Monsanto factoid wheresoever published. I don't like Monsanto much (read: at all) but we have policies about balance and undue weight.
 * So, feel free to review the close. Feel free to overturn it and impose a different result. My strong belief is that an "include" result without any caveat regarding significance of sources will be abused, not least because the RfC exists only because that's why the RfC existed in the first place. The mark of POV warriors is determination to get their way. I don't have a "way" to get here, I have no caring if some other admin wants to re-close it, and I have said so from the outset. It's just a pity that SageRad chose to argue for days on the Talk page first before doing what I advised, and when he did do what I advised, he did so in terms that are rude and arrogant. I am rude and arrogant too, but at least I know it and I don't assume that my view of any subject is the only defensible one. Guy (Help!) 12:19, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * JzG/Guy, that is really a strawman there. You are imputing motivations that i do not have. I do not fit your description as "clearly wants to be able to interpret that as a mandate to include everything" -- simply not true. The RfC is for one question on content, whether to include it or not, and that is all it asked. You also insult me, calling me rude and arrogant. I am demanding integrity in simple language. How is that rude and arrogant? For not submitting and obeying others, i become "arrogant". You seem to be so sure that you are always right on all matters, such that when i don't obey you, i am therefore at fault. That's a fallacy of thinking you're always right. I do not think i am always right, but i do have a voice and a right to use it. I don't have a "way" to get here, other than to insist on a process with integrity, and in this case, it was ugly gaming against including the content, so i called an RfC, and i want simple integrity in the process. Please, some civility and respect. SageRad (talk) 12:34, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm seeing two local sources ("www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local…" and "www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news…") and a couple of bloggy sites. If these cases are significant, without a word given in evidence and no result, then where is the national coverage in MSM? Are we acting as PR agents for lawyers working on speculation now? --Pete (talk) 12:29, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Note that we have all of these sources to choose from. If the sourcing i used is not suitable for you, then you could help edit the article and improve it, by adding sourcing that satisfies you from this list, if any do. We could be editing this article together, to improve it, rather than being in a battleground mentality. SageRad (talk) 13:00, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Weak Support for review of close per Robert McClenon. His post sums up my thinking on the topic. That Guy had made a statement at Arbcom which shows strong opinions on the subject before the close. That the close looks good. But that Guy should never have closed it because of the statement at Arbcom. How things are perceived is sometimes more important than the outcome. That said, its a two edged sword, should really consider withdrawing this request as the next close may be less to his liking.  AlbinoFerret  12:27, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, i was making an attempt to withdraw this request so that we don't have to go on and on, like this, and so i added the content that the RfC was about in the first place, and i was going to come here and say let's just call this whole thing off, but then comes Pete/Skyring reverting the content and claiming that the RfC did not support it, which directly speaks to the need for a clear resolution on the RfC in simple terms without the loaded language. The RfC was for one specific content inclusion and that's all. Strange paradoxical situation. Anyway, as i read the RfC results, every person who came there without pre-involvement supported the inclusion of the material. As i read the closing by JzG/Guy, as vague as it might be, it also supports the inclusion of the material with indirect language. So i added it, and it got reverted, and here we are again. SageRad (talk) 12:39, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * if thats all that stops you from withdrawing this, then dont stop. Simply source it to national coverage, which appears to be at the top of the RFC (Reuters). This is a review of the close of the RFC, not the events that happened afterwards. AlbinoFerret  13:33, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok, then. I withdraw my request for a review of the closure. This does not mean that i think the closure did real justice to the content of the RfC, but it's simply a nolo contendere for the purpose of saving us the trouble when there are other things to worry about in the world. Thank you for your kind advice, Albino Ferret. I'll go over to the article and add it back with national coverage, and hope that we can finally be done with this long saga about adding one sentence to an article. SageRad (talk) 14:02, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment. While it looks like this has been withdrawn, I would highly suggest that people read WP:INVOLVED in terms of admins if anything comes up in the future. Robert McClenon summed things up pretty nicely, although I would argue that statements at ArbCom made as an admin commenting on general behavior also fall under uninvolved. Either way, I'm closing this since the request with withdrawn. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:15, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Problems with off-topic complaints at Talk:Flower of Life over a different article
Can anyone think of a solution to all of the complaining at Talk:Flower of Life? Ever since the deletion of the article about the geometric shape and the move of Flower of Life (manga) into the name because there were no other, the talk page has been inundated by random individuals doing nothing more than complain about the deletion of the other article. I've closed a previous tirade about this a few months with what I though was an apt description of the purpose of talk pages, but that has been completely ignored. I have just closed another line of complaints about the deleted article. I don't want to seam heavy handed, but should future off-topic complaints be summarily deleted? —Farix (t &#124; c) 03:23, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:RBI time? Collapse the discussion and tell them to move on. That talk page is not DRV and then they can go there and make their case there if they want. Else, temporary protection can be warranted. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 12:01, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I gave a stern but specific warning here at User talk:Odarcan. I hope that knocks some sense to the editors to at least go bother the right people. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 12:13, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I've added  to the talkpage. --  Orduin  Discuss 16:16, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I don't think those coming to the manga's talk page to complain about the deletion on the article about the geometric shape will read such notices. They clearly didn't read the closure of the previous discussion. —Farix (t &#124; c) 16:57, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If it keeps up I'm willing to semiprotect it for a little while, sometimes it does come to that and I've seen it work before. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 22:19, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Why not just explain Wikipedia policies to them, and what they need to do if they want to create an article? Throwing around templates and page protection seems awfully BITEy to me. The vast majority of people don't know anything about the project's arcane internal workings. --71.119.131.184 (talk) 04:12, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration Committee Motions
There are currently four motions drafted by the Arbitration Committee (at Arbitration/Requests/Motions) that involve rescinding, extending or changing editing restrictions in previous arbitration cases. The specifics of the restrictions and links to each case are included in the motions and your input as community members is invited. For the Arbitration Committee, Liz Read! Talk! 21:43, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Possibly dangerous external link
Not sure if this is an appropriate place for such notice. If not, please move it to a better place.

Page Music education for young children, reference 5. from www.brighthubeducation.com – when I shift+click it to open in a new window, my MSIE 11 hangs up for a moment and then it says it closed the page to protect my computer... Can anyone check, please, if the page is actually dangerous? If so, probably the link should be removed? --CiaPan (talk) 20:32, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I was feeling adventurous so I loaded it in Chrome and Firefox, no warnings. I will say the page looks completely different in the browsers, even the colors are radically different, plus Firefox showed two huge ads (I have adblock plus installed in Chrome). Whatever malware testing service MS is using, they are either extra smart and catching something Chrome and Firefox can't, or more likely it is a configuration or other error.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 20:38, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It's likely misbehavior by one of the third-party ad/tracking networks they use. Ghostery blocks a bunch of them and I had no issues loading the page. However the source does not back up the content cited and I don't see why Germany is specifically mentioned in the article. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 20:52, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Other odd things:
 * If you send it a GET / HTTP/1.0 it returns HTTP/1.1 403 Forbidden but if you sent it a GET / HTTP/1.1 it returns HTTP/1.1 200 OK.
 * If you disable javascript it sends you to http://www.brighthubeducation.com/distil_r_blocked.html
 * It sends you different content depending on what browser you claim to be in the user agent string.
 * I don't think they are serving any malware, but I do think they are trying to be overly clever with browser sniffing, and that Wikipedia should not link to this URL for the simple reason that we don't know what the person clicking on the link will get. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:35, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Maybe a report should be filed at WP:SBL then.  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 00:11, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Could you do that, please? I don't feel fluent enough in English, in Wikipedia policies and in technical details of browser-HTTP-server communication to prepare a good report. --CiaPan (talk) 09:16, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I can make a report, and am pretty much an expert on technical details HTTP requests/responses, but first, do we have a consensus that an otherwise benign website that (in my opinion) is overly clever with browser sniffing should be blocked? Wikipedia does browser sniffing. When I fake my user agent to say I am an iPhone I get the mobile version without asking for it (with a link to the desktop version in case Wikipedia gets it wrong, which in my opinion makes the browser sniffing OK). --Guy Macon (talk) 04:19, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 26 pages link to the website, only six are contained in articles. I have no opinion really, just some data. Keegan (talk) 05:29, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It looks like someone removed the link from the article. That's just as well. That's basically a content farm site stuffed with ads, anyway. See Demand Media for a bigger player in that industry. Wikipedia shouldn't send people to sites like that. Not WP:RS. The site itself didn't show any technical problems, but then I'm looking at it from Firefox on Linux with heavy ad blocking, and probably never got the bad stuff, if any.  John Nagle (talk) 05:53, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Request for a block
Since the issue about Hijiri 88  has been ongoing since … ages? I am now officially asking to be blocked from editing en.wikipedia. I am sure as there is a procedure for almost anything here there must be one for that one too. Me not to request this step would actually support Hijirii88’s ongoing tactics which to my mind are sick. I am sick of quoting diffs but the named user’s activity within the category of Nichiren Buddhism will factually disable me to further contribute to the project without violating the current IBAN – Nichiren Buddhism is my expertise and so far I was able to discuss issues on a sane level – even outside Wikipedia. I acquired this expertise by practising Nichiren Buddhism, being part of a NRM and afterwards seeking NEUTRAL information. My request for a topic ban for Hijirii88 on Nichiren Buddhism was factually declined. Since de.wikipedia works on a slightly different mode I will be able to contribute still with less conflict and focused on the project’s purpose. On a very private note, and why not stating this here, I am professionally unable to deal with, what to my mind are, clear mental issues. Who would have thought that highlighting the little Kenji man’s (Kenji Miyazawa) bibliographical skeletons in the closet would lead to all this. Dealing with Hijrii88 is nerve racking as long one does not agree. Personally I find the complete deletion of sources and refs manipulative as this medium does allow for means to keep them visible to the reader even though one might fail to disagree on the article’s wording … so much for no censoring on Wikipedia. This all turns to a kindergarten level and I do have a job, family etc. and let there be no doubt about it, my participation here was also part of a healing process coming out of a cult. Dealing with the SGi article under current guidelines is futile though. Cheers for nothing and sorry for having waffled on. So please just block me :-) As you guys do not seem to care what information is made public so why should I --Catflap08 (talk) 19:56, 22 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Clearly, I am not in a position to stop an administrator from blocking the above individual if they so see fit. However, I do think that, if he honestly believes his comments above, which I have no doubt he does, perhaps the better alternative for the project as a whole would be to request that ArbCom review the situation and decide whether there is sufficient support for his allegations and, if they find that there is, they might be able to take some sort of action which would reduce the likelihood of further troubles for all those involved in the future, through whatever form of sanctions ArbCom might choose to impose. John Carter (talk) 20:06, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Catflap08, aside from John Carter's suggestion, my answer is Not at the moment for two reasons. (1) What kind of block?  Indefinite or for a specified period of time?  Do you want to be able to create another account, or not?  Do you want to be autoblocked or not?  Do you want to retain talk page access?  I'm open to granting a self-block request, but only if I know exactly what you want.  (2) Are you sure this is the best choice?  Remember that you have the right to vanish: if you wish, you can simply stop editing here, with no block required.  This is a good deal simpler, if for no other reason than that if you change your mind, you can pick right up again on editing, with no need to request unblock and no risk of someone contesting your request (believe me, this happens!), let alone no one misreading your block log to say "Catflap's been blocked twice!"  So, (3) Tell us that yes, you understand RTV but you still want to be blocked, and specify the block settings, and I'll block you if nobody else responds first, but just remember that it's not a good idea in many situations.  Odd to see that I was the one who levied your original block; I don't remember the incident.  Nyttend (talk) 22:16, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Catflap08, I encourage you to take a wikibreak (a week? a month? longer?) and return to editing when you feel like you can make a positive contribution. It sounds like you are burned out on conflict in your subject area. I know I was absent a few months and came back with a much healthier attitude. But if you insist that you want to be blocked, you can approach admins, like Bishonen who I know are willing to impose a self-requested block if you meet her criteria. But I encourage a bit of time away first, in can help you get a perspective on where editing Wikipedia fits into your life. Liz Read! Talk! 22:19, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * And just to note, we wouldn't be here if an uninvolved admin had closed the last fracas between these two instead of leaving it for an ineffective do-nothing NAC close. BMK (talk) 23:08, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with Liz; WP:RTV might be the healthiest option here.  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 01:00, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay, I wasn't going to comment here because this is not a discussion of our IBAN but rather a discussion of Catflap08's supposed decision not to edit Wikipedia anymore, so my posting here might be an IBAN violation. Also, there has been no incident between me and Catflap08 for weeks, so I don't know what brought this on. But since Catflap08 invited me I guess I will. Catflap08 should have been blocked his lack of ability to edit Wikipedia constructively (without engaging in original research and misrepresentation of sources), his complete lack of talk page etiquette (he seems incapable of disputing something without resorting to sarcasm and personal attacks) and his general tendency to take anything personally. I have no idea why he wasn't blocked years ago. I'm frankly sick of the Wikipedia community's inability to deal with the Catflap08 problem. Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 01:04, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for once again displaying your rather pathetic grasp of policies and guidelines. I know few editors of any experience who would mistake a notification for an invitation. I think this may well qualify as another violation of the i-ban on this individual's part, and would welcome the input of or  on that. John Carter (talk) 01:22, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Seriously, Hijiri? You are not helping.  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 02:06, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Blocked for a week for ban violation; this was not a case of "Engaging in legitimate and necessary dispute resolution, that is, addressing a legitimate concern about the ban itself in an appropriate forum", to quote WP:BANEX. I welcome input from Dennis Brown or Drmies (or anyone else, for that matter) regarding (1) whether the block were appropriate in the first place, and if so, (2) whether the length were appropriate.  Nyttend (talk) 02:26, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As Hijiri had said moments before being blocked, these two hadn't interacted in weeks, and suddenly Catflap feels overwehlmed by Hijiri's presence on Wikipedia? And requests to be blocked as oposed to walking away from the project or vanishing? I would like Catflap to at least explain his thought process in that respect. I also agree with BMK; if admins had been willing to deal with the problem instead of a you'll-get-in-trouble-next-time slap on the wrist this would have been resolved years ago.
 * Nyttend just wondering, how was Catflap's post here not an IBAN violation? I thought simply mentioning the other editor's username was sanctionable?  ミーラー強斗武   (StG88ぬ会話) 03:06, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There is some scope for seeking a review of an IBAN on the admin noticeboards without drawing a block. One could view this as an unusual review of the IBAN. Also, endorse Nyttend's block. Blackmane (talk) 03:20, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't see how you interpreted this as a review of the IBAN. He wasn't requesting for the IBAN to be removed or modified in any way.  ミーラー強斗武   (StG88ぬ会話) 03:52, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Like I said it's an, read "my", unusual interpretation, but let's not quibble over the semantics here as that is entirely another discussion and not really relevant or germane to the point being discussed here. Blackmane (talk) 04:18, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


 * FTR, I endorse John Carter's ArbCom suggestion, basically as per BMK. This has been going on for months, and it's seems too "hot" for any Admin to tackle, so it's probably time this was passed on to ArbCom to see if they can finally take a crack at resolving this once and for all. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:23, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Block of Hijiri

 * Oh FFS, you block Hijiri for responding to an AN where another editor who is in a mutual interaction ban with him posts a self-serving 'Look at me, I am so sad and want to be blocked from wikipedia because of this bad person' post that is *entirely* about Hijiri and blames all of Catflaps woes on Hijiri? Terrible bad block. If anything its deliberate baiting to get someone to violate their IB and should have been responded to with a block as soon as it went up. Disgusting. Did you actually READ what Catflap posted? "Me not to request this step would actually support Hijirii88’s ongoing tactics which to my mind are sick." There is almost no situation where this comment would be allowed to pass as its a)a personal attack, b)a violation of the interaction ban between them. This block needs to be either overturned or applied to both parties in fairness. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:50, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Cf. "mental issues": Why You May Be Passive-Aggressive, and Not Even Realize It zzz (talk) 13:26, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I second Only in death. Not only should Catflap's original post have been an IBAN violation in and of itself, this isn't even the first time he's claimed to be "retiring" because of Hijiri (this is the fourth in fact). There is an obvious double standard here. If Hijiri isn't going to be unblocked then Catflap should also be blocked (that's what he wants anyway right?).  ミーラー強斗武   (StG88ぬ会話) 14:14, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Block of Catflap08
I've blocked Catflap08 for a week as well. If Hijiri replying to this section after being pinged and being directly discussed (with things like "Hijirii88’s ongoing tactics which to my mind are sick.") is sufficient to get a one-week block for an IBAN violation, then it is not really defensible that the original post would not get the same response. Fram (talk) 14:47, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That's interesting, since he literally asked for it. asked for my thoughts, and I am seriously not sure. I can see how, in this thread, what goes for Hijiri should go mutatis mutandis for Catflap. But what I agree with most in this discussion is 's comment that an earlier ANI thread should have been acted on, one way or another, by an admin. Too many of us seem to be unwilling to wade into the muddy areas, with the result that they get muddier until someone takes it to ArbCom. In my view, sending cases like this one to ArbCom loudly proclaims our inability to handle things the way this community ought to handle it. Perhaps it's symptomatic of something larger--US politics seems to work the same way, with a legislation that can't handle anything properly and lets the Supreme Court decide. In this case I'd have preferred the blocks to be for NPA or something like that, but maybe that's just semantics, and at any rate we don't always seem to be able to decide what does and does not fall under an iBan. No, as BMK suggested, it would have been much better if topic bans had been issued for the two (that was one proposal) or for the one (that was another proposal). It's no use crying over spilt milk, but we will do it again in a few weeks' time. Drmies (talk) 18:03, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Based on John Carter's words above, I've made a case request with Arbcom. Fram, if Catflap wants an unblock to participate in the case, would you mind unblocking?  I've already promised Hijiri that I'll unblock if he asks to be unblocked to participate in the case.  Nyttend (talk) 18:06, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I see. BTW, after looking over your comments on Hijiri's talk page, I think you make a pretty cogent argument for the Hijiri block--thanks. Drmies (talk) 18:09, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * . I'm not as often around Wikipedia as I used to be. In general (and in this specific case), I have no problem with anyone unblocking or changing a block without discussion (although in such a case it is nice to be notified, like you did here). I do what I believe to be the best (within policies), I don't believe that I necessarily know better though. Fram (talk) 19:15, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Dalal Mughrabi

 * Dear administrators, I wish to bring the page Dalal Mughrabi to your notice. There have been numerous attempts in the past 7-8 years to amend this page and use the word "terrorist" to describe Dalal. Please refer discussion here and here. I requested for semi-protection for this page (which was done till 28 Sep 15). May I request if the admins can consider placing WP:PCPP on this page for indefinite term? Kindly consider. Many thanks,  Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk)  07:33, 24 September 2015 (UTC)


 * If you create a thread on the article talk page suggesting this and consensus agrees with you then I will be happy to do so. Another admin is welcome to have their own criteria though. <b style="color:Chocolate">HighInBC</b> (was Chillum)  16:16, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Hello HighInBC, reason I placed this request was that this page is subjected to constant POV disputes and it has been going on for 8 years now. I leave in your good hands. Cheers,  Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk)  19:11, 24 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Again, if you want my good hands to do this then I will want to see a consensus for it on the talk page. If it is a serious problem then you should have no problem finding agreement. Other good hands may feel differently. <b style="color:Chocolate">HighInBC</b> (was Chillum)  23:40, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Hello HighInBC, no need to mock what I said. I placed this request only in the interest of helping Wikipedia. Besides, I read WP:PC and it does not talk about consensus to be build for applying PC. It funny that requesting for PC meets "bureaucracy", whereas vandalizing a page for almost 10 years is a free ride for all? Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk)  04:45, 25 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I was not mocking you, I was just engaging in a bit of humour. I am sorry if my personal standards for using my admin tools are considered bureaucracy by you, perhaps another admin will be willing to provide a simpler path. <b style="color:Chocolate">HighInBC</b> (was Chillum)  04:48, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your time on this matter. Being from different parts of the world, lets say our sense of humor is different :-). I will leave the page in discussion to it's fate. Have a good day. Cheers, Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk)  05:15, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Proposal to topic ban from reference desks
It is with sad heart that I propose to topic ban User:Sagittarian Milky Way from the reference desks. At the worst, he's trolling. At the best, he's phenomenally unhelpful, and totally uninterested in helping with the primary function of the Ref Desks, which is to provide users who have questions with either Wikipedia articles and/or external references to help them find the answers to questions they may have. Sagittarian Milky Way seems to be primarily interested in using it as a chat room, and more troublingly, with putting forth an offensive personal agenda. Recent diffs from recent days include BLP-level violations pondering the sexual attractiveness of female U.S. Supreme Court Justices, Religious bigotry, a long Personal political rant, etc. That's just from the past 24-48 hours. It has to stop. The ref desks are not supposed to be the "comment section" from HuffPost. It's supposed to be a place where users can get links to further reading on topics that they don't understand, full stop. I hate to have to do something like this, but I am having a hard time finding much redeeming contributions from Sagittarian Milky Way on the ref desks, the above links are not comprehensive, but rather merely a sampling of his recent contributions. For that reason I formally propose a full ban from the Ref Desks for Sagittarian Milky Way. -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 01:38, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support as nominator. -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 01:38, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support. Clearly WP:NOTHERE. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:47, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support This user is always on the edge, usually asking the sort of science questions you'd get from a smart pre-teen. The inappropriateness shown at Humanities as mentioned by Jayron is all-too often over the edge.  But even good questions usually devolve into nonsense and show a lack of true interest in the topic.  I decided deliberately after this post which I put over an hour into answering that I would not answer him again on any question.  Since then I have noticed several of his posts and not been surprised by their disruptive nature. I have changed my vote back from "final warning" I see he's been talked to about this behavior and the response below evinces no conscientiousness of the issue.  At the least a block is a good idea, and a topic ban is fine with me. μηδείς (talk) 04:28, 20 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I guess I don't have much to defend besides that I wasn't trolling. Trolling is intentional. You people really don't believe that one could live to teenagerhood in New York City before seeing an animal mate in real life outside a zoo? I hadn't okay. I'm not judging it unreasonable if some people wanted to do that, not that was I sure they existed or not and don't mind either way. I didn't make anything up, especially not to troll. People on the Ref Desk and other parts of non-article space not hidden their political views all the time, some left of most of the US, some right of US center. Have they gotten banned for it? I do appear to have violated WP:BLP. Removed. I haven't erased anything on my talk page, Medeis. Oh, and the Magic School Bus was where I learned many years ago the very simple thing of which color is absorbed by what if you're still wondering why I said that. That cultural reference might not be understood by other generations. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:29, 20 September 2015 (UTC)


 * That ANI question was only hypothetical, honest. I worry about low probability terrible things that could happen to me often. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:34, 20 September 2015 (UTC)


 * And then you were all acting like that really happened. Sheesh, that never happened (but I guess that was an unanswerable question for the desk in any form anyway). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:39, 20 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Pedantically, I wasn't actually pondering Justices' sexual attractiveness either, as I was thinking about whether I liked or might like their younger faces before and after I saw them and I already knew their recent sexual attractiveness levels. Also I didn't look up their 20th century pictures just now to have (offensive) examples, that pondering happened 6 years ago and I was just recounting it. Clearly I need to be more conscientious before saving. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:02, 20 September 2015 (UTC)


 * SMW, I'd recommmed you read WP:Competence is required. I have changed my vote back to ban in the face of your response. μηδείς (talk) 04:28, 20 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Support Contributions highly suggest trolling. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:24, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support, although I don't think he's a troll exactly. Sometimes people just don't know how to act appropriately on the Internet, whether because of age or brain chemistry or both. I remember being dumb and annoying on the Internet once too. For starters, it would help a lot if he asked himself "does anyone really want to hear about my masturbation habits?" Because the answer is always "no, just no." Adam Bishop (talk) 11:20, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support Taking up far too much space with inappropriate content, demonstrating persistent poor judgment = abuse of the RD. -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:09, 20 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment I don't know if may opinion may count since im not a regular, but has Jayron already warned SGM? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.79.50 (talk) 16:18, 20 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose. In my evaluation of the situation, "Sagittarian Milky Way" fails to appreciate the potential for intellectual accomplishment in the Reference desks and tries too hard to bring his own version of intellectual accomplishment to the desks. This results in longwinded (for the Reference desks) creative writing such as this. I didn't even read that. I may be missing the next great writer. But it would be somewhat off-target to call this trolling, in my estimation, because the intention is to contribute to/participate in the dialogue taking place. While the Reference desks are not a chat room there are ample examples of asides that we all participate in. I would give "Sagittarian Milky Way" another chance to try to stay more on topic. Bus stop (talk) 16:41, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I am somewhat sympathetic with that, and was thinking a medium-length block might be better. But then SMW could not be guided towards actual contributions to the project, since he couldn't contribute at all.  So I think a topic ban, which he could appeal after, say, six months, by pointing to his contributions to the project makes a lot more sense. μηδείς (talk) 17:36, 20 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Support - Trolling, bad judgement, whatever, since it doesn't matter. The end result is that the individual doesn't need to be working the reference desk if that is the kind of participation we can expect.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 17:20, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support Even though the instruction near the top of each ref desk stating "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate" is ignored at times there is a difference between "participating" in a thread and "initiating" it. There are plenty of other places on the interwebs where SMW can turn to for this sort of thing. MarnetteD&#124;Talk 17:43, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Multiple Socks? This user has long seemed to resemble other trollesque users quite closely.  Currently we have a questioon by  here.  This user has been trolling the refdesks and the site for more than half a dozen years, with the same typical subjects.  See this 157K edit on "Gravitational Field vs. Electric Force Field. Why?"  I suggest an SPI be performed as well, since the topical overlap is quite obvious. μηδείς (talk) 02:19, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support Obviously unsuitable for the refdesks, and SMW's comments above make it appear they are unsuitable for Wikipedia—we don't care if a pattern of behavior is intentional trolling. Johnuniq (talk) 02:39, 21 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose - SMW is at times off-point, and needs to better learn our community standards. But I do believe his intent is not to disrupt. And if we're going to topic ban ref desk users who don't intend to disrupt but still do disrupt on occasion, then there's several users I'd ban before SMW. A WP:TROUT and a firm suggestion to think twice about posting should suffice. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:41, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support; whether this is intentional trolling or genuine stupidity doesn't matter—his continued presence at the reference desks is serving no useful purpose and wasting other people's time. 9% edits to mainspace pretty much says it all. @SemanticMantis, "there are other trolls at the reference desks" is certainly true, but the cleanup has to start somewhere. &#8209; iridescent 15:52, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * My recollection was that SMW has provided good refs and info in the past. But I could be mistaken. Maybe could provide a list of diffs that show their good, helpful replies. Failing that kind of evidence, the !votes seem to be showing support for topic banning. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:03, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Search for my name [|here] which is an oldid with a lot of my posts. I had things to do today which explains why it took so long. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:19, 22 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Weak Oppose per SemanticMantis. Although I agree that SMW's posts are more entertaining than informative and are in violation of WP:NOTFORUM, SMW is by no means the only regular contributor to the reference desks who uses them to express political opinions and personal beliefs, rather than providing sourced answers to questions.  If SMW is banned, I think we need to clearly establish which element of his behaviour distinguishes him from the many other contributors who have not been banned for similar reasons.  If it's lack of constructive contributions, that's probably OK.  If it's his sexual (or, worse, political) opinions that make the difference, that isn't.  I wouldn't have any major objections if some other offenders against WP:NOTFORUM were banned from the reference desks, but I don't see why SMW, in particular, is being singled out for sanctions while others are left free to amuse themselves on the desks. Tevildo (talk) 18:56, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Or we could warn then topic ban the other regular contributors to the reference desks who use them to express political opinions and personal beliefs rather than providing sourced answers to questions. I'm just saying. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:38, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I would support that - if SWM is to be sanctioned, then others who do the same thing should be sanctioned. The issue will be setting the limits of "the same thing". Tevildo (talk) 20:38, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I do "the other thing". Interjecting my opinions and beliefs with the sourced answers, not rather than. That's not to say I can source those opinions and beliefs, so I'm still filling heads with unsourced and unprofessional information, but that's just the gravy, not the meat. We can not give up on the gravy. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:39, 21 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Weak oppose per Tevildo. I was on the fence at first before his/her argument.  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 00:08, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support completely uninvolved; I hardly ever even look at the ref desks, but that first diff (and really that whole thread) has me sold here. The ref desks are in effect public-facing positions; not only BLP violations but the level of juvenile sexism in general is not appropriate. The other links and comments suggest that we're getting a mostly-unfiltered view of an immature internal monologue. There's plenty of other places on the internet to do that if you really must. Opabinia regalis (talk) 01:51, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose, not so much because there are other editors who also disrupt the Reference Desk equally, which there are, so much as because I see that no one has admonished or cautioned User:Sagittarian Milky Way on his own talk page that his posts to the Reference Desk have been inappropriate. He hasn't been warned at all.  I recommend that this thread be closed as No Consensus in favor of a topic-ban, but with a link on his talk page as a formal warning.  The idea that vandals have to be given four escalating warnings before they are blocked is a myth, but the idea of giving a clueless good-faith editor one warning should not just be a myth.  Robert McClenon (talk) 01:58, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose I can find no warning and no diffs of warnings have been provided. Although many of the contributions to the Reference Desk have been problematic, I see no evidence that User:Sagittarian Milky Way is not willing to listen. I agree with Robert McClenon's analysis. --I am One of Many (talk) 02:15, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Really, guys? Read the whole thread in that first diff. We can't ask someone to stay out of a public-facing position because no one warned him that it was an inappropriate place to discuss what makes him horny? Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:03, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose None of the diffs really show anything rising to the level of a ban, yeah, some of the comments were juvenile, but that's about it, and  Like I said, his comment was juvenile, but the reality of wikipedia is: WP:NOTCENSORED  Kosh Vorlon   11:11, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Fine, I think everyone's heard enough of that anyway, I'm going to keep it to myself. The point was you're going to affect many males too much if everyone goes topless, because humans have hidden estrus. Who knows, maybe me and my father's sex drive is not actually near average (at least for the desk) which makes it sound too exaggerated to not be trolling? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:43, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I thought saying this was futile but it's clearly not now.

Okay, I get it, 1. This is too far with explicitness even if there's a point (satire, showing that an opinion's not from repression or prudishness, etc). 2. Self-coitus mentions aren't just somewhat disturbing. 3. If I'm too lazy to show sources, find more than an iota to add, edit (or even read) long posts till they stop flowing terribly, or analyse until deciding the least miscontruable way to say something, then wait till I'm interested enough in a topic to do those things. 4. If I'm too lazy to analyse exactly where to cut an interesting line that's going too off-topic then default to cut.

If I was warned I would've stopped. The only other time I was brought to AN didn't exactly inspire confidence in the idea that significant numbers of people are objecting (to say the least), that's why I kept on. It's unfortunate that these posts all bunched up around the same time (and that a racist troll was right before the mine), but less bunched up posts like this would not be an ANI and the bunching up is unavoidable per the law of truly large numbers unless I changed and didn't decide to push my luck here. I think if I hadn't pressed the button at the top and even saw the racist question before it was deleted I wouldn't have asked the fundamentalist Q just because of the appearance of bad faith. Otherwise, if I knew someone would get offended (especially unconvincably), I would've thought until I asked "Does anyone have evidence of someone saying people shouldn't go to zoos before a certain age?" Full stop. At least it would just sound like a non-sequitur at worst.

And what's with the sockpuppet oversuspiciousness? Like a guy who's user page is pages of nearly 100% programming is so obviously me (who hasn't made a single question that shows knowledge of any programming language). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:19, 22 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose per I am One of Many. Ssscienccce  (talk) 11:19, 22 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Support. Trying to imagine how Reference Desk is perceived by women and religious minorities, in particular, when such disruptive, non-productive and highly offensive editing is allowed to continue. Let an example be made and enforce same standard of civil Wikipedia behavior on others if problems persist. This disturbing pattern of tolerated behavior is affecting my motivation and ability to contribute to Reference Desk in good conscience. I will not be tarred by association with such. -- Paulscrawl (talk) 17:19, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm a religious minority and I can easily tolerate this. For what that's worth. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:59, 22 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Based on recent actions, and the general trends here, I'm inclined to let this matter drop, and withdraw my support for a ban. SMW has changed significantly since the discussion started, and has both apologized, changed their behavior considerably, and tried to make amends.  I'm inclined to let this go as a "lesson learned the hard way" matter, and per WP:ROPE, let SMW know he's on a short leash from now on... -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 18:19, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Support but amend proposal to suspended topic ban There's a sufficient consensus that a topic ban could be levied. Instead, as a show of good faith, the current consensus is suspended for 1 month with a view that further disruption within that period will lead to an automatic enforcement of the topic ban. Should further disruption occur after the 1 month moratorium, a new consensus for a topic ban should be sought so that this consensus won't be viewed as a Sword of Damocles . Blackmane (talk) 04:37, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose as per Robert McClenon above, who has pointed out that the editor has received no warning, no counsel, and little by way of a complaint. Let us not just jump straight to the gallows, but follow the usual process and give him a chance to make amends and show a willingness to change.  --   Jack of Oz    [pleasantries]   07:48, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "No counsel"? Are you under the misapprehension that Wikipedia is a judicial system? BMK (talk) 01:28, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps Jack meant counsel in the sense of counseling rather than legal counsel. Blackmane (talk) 03:36, 25 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Weak Oppose largely along the lines of and . Most standards on the refdesk are not effectively upheld, and while many of SMW's contributions are silly and/or inappropriate, it would be very easy for a new user to get the impression from regulars that the refdesk is a place for joking around and musing guesswork. Without a warning to the contrary while regulars receive endless warnings with no action, a topic ban seems inappropriate. In the only recent case I can think of of someone being effectively topic banned from the refdesks, the person had to go so far as to repeatedly declare an explicit intent to continue disregarding rules/standards (and contempt for Wikipedia in general). SMW, to the contrary, seems to be expressing that he's taking something away from this thread. &mdash;  Rhododendrites  <sup style="font-size:80%;">talk \\ 16:01, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Proposal to Topic Ban User:Swamiblue from editing Swaminarayan Related Pages due to long-term disruption
(Moved from AN/I. BMK (talk) 05:10, 26 September 2015 (UTC))

Basic Information
Based around Wayne State University, User:Swamiblue began disrupting Wikipedia beginning sometime around April 2013. The user earlier carried a host of controversial sock puppet account names and multiple IP addresses: Swamifraud, 6Duarf.imaws (which is a reversal of Swamifraud upon being warned to switch name), Duarfimaws, etc (a full list of user accounts can be accessed here see link and most recently carries the username User:Swamiblue.

List of Blocked accounts: (Note: non-exhaustive list - additional sock accounts exist)

Earlier blocks were due to persistent sockpuppetry as seen through their initial block history. User declares on their talk page: "My expertise and general interest is with controversial topics within Hinduism". However, more than 99% of their disruptive edits are targeted towards Swaminarayan Hinduism showing account created for specific agenda.

Later blocks were for edit warring, persistent personal attacks and BLP violations (mainly targeting Swaminarayan’s current spiritual lineage guru: Pramukh Swami Maharaj). User even makes it evidently clear of their agenda with one of their sock account: “I am traveling to Rajkot, India and Siem Reap Province in Cambodia next month and have a scheduled appointment with the Mahant of that temple to go over the original Swamini Vato. BAPS has changed words in that book and I have enough evidence to make the claim that baps fundamentally has to change scriptures to make them fit their ideology. I have posted sent the link for the Aarti changes, Swamini Vato preliminary copies to researchers currently studying swaminaryan cults.” diff here. User has issues with punctuation and competency problems in comprehension of sources thus often ends up making copyright violations. None of this stops user from continuing their tendentious editing.

Earlier Blocks
Prior to listing Swamiblue’s current diffs evidencing user’s continuous disruption since the user was last unblocked in May 2015, I have also briefly listed user’s previous block logs to show that not much of user’s behavior has changed:
 * Block Log 1
 * Block Log 2 BLP Violation
 * See for a detailed BLP block
 * Block Log 3 which also shows user is currently “Blocked for Personal attacks or harassment” for 48 hours:

Topic Ban Appeal
The reason for assembling all these diffs is to convey the fact that the user’s disruptive behavior hasn’t changed despite user’s repeated assurances that such behavior would stop. Based on this diff compilation, I would immediately appeal admin/community to (a) “topic ban” WP:TBAN the user from editing topics related to Swaminarayan (See this link for a full list of topics) due to user’s disruptive edits on this topic and/or (b) Preferably “page ban” and not “article ban” WP:PBAN the user from editing the following pages: Swaminarayan, BAPS, Pramukh Swami Maharaj, APJ Abdul Kalam, Shastriji Maharaj, and related pages since user has been posting content on talk page that violates BLP policies despite repeatedly blocked for such violation in addition to using the talk page as a forum and/or (c) Indefinitely block user from editing related pages to enforce the ban due to their continued disruption.

Such behavior disrupts the collective work of creating a useful, encyclopedic reference as it discourages editors from continuing to work on a project where they constantly have to deal with a user who behaves immaturely, ignores and constantly violates Wikipedia policies despite being regularly warned about doing so, engages in edit-warring, constantly makes unfounded COI accusations when user’s edits are not adopted, and continues to make willful BLP violations despite being warned several times. To attract sympathy when on the verge of being blocked, the user makes short-lived promises that user will correct such behavior - only to see all of this disruptive editing repeated once user is unblocked clearly indicating that user has little regard for the consequences of their persistent disruptive actions. Thus, I see an urgent need by admins to protect the encyclopedia due to Swamiblue's uncontrolled disruptive behavior, as demonstrated in the diffs discussed below. Such behavior needs to be immediately controlled or restricted by banning the user because in my opinion it has become way beyond excessive.

BLP Violation diffs
The article notes that, “In his final book, APJ Abul Kalam, explains that he considers Pramukh Swami as his guru”. User Swamiblue wrote on the talk page: “do not believe it is appropriate as pramukh swami was accused of rape and sexual assualt last year and it might bring negative attention to Dr. Kalam.” (diff here) The user had been warned earlier that such insertions on a talk page constitute BLP Violations and user had even been blocked for a similar issue in another article: (diff here) and here is the block log for the violation link here. When I or another editor had removed the offending material on Dr. Kalam’s page with an explanation that this is a BLP violation, Swamiblue is persistent to add it back stating “Not BLP violation. Discussing valid point”, despite having been blocked for a BLP violation previously: diff here

And more recently User, seemingly emboldened by any lack of consequence for his persistent violation, added the following edit on Pramukh Swami’s talk page: “Has anyone gotten news regarding this mans passing? I know any day now but some people have been posting on messenger services that this guy has croaked this weekend and someone else has taken over but so far that is not true unfortunately.” (diff here) Wishing for the death of one of the leaders of the Swaminarayan group shows not just a simple bias but a form of hatred. Not only is this a BLP violation, but the comment that “he is unfortunately not dead” should get user banned from editing any Swaminarayan related articles because of a conflict of interest that emerges even more clearly when we see that user appears to have a single purpose account (WP:SPA) with more than 95% of his 600+ edits related to the promotion of a particular point of view on articles related to Swaminarayan. That is, all of user’s disruptive edits are targeted towards Swaminarayan Hinduism, suggesting a conflict of interest. Based on his previous disruptive activity on Swaminarayan-related pages, such uncivil comments as wishing for someone’s death, the fact that user’s edits betray a single purpose account, user cannot be trusted to be neutral on topics related to Swaminarayan. Thus, I feel there is grounds that User:Swamiblue be banned from editing such topics due to their long-term abuse on such topics.

(a) Diffs where user accuses other users of vandalism when his edit is reverted:

 * “Reverted Vandalism Vandal erased everything including information that was agreed to be kept” - diff here
 * When he tried to contact other admins to complain, he was told, : “You contacted me, but this is a garden variety content dispute, something you calmly discuss on the talk page and hope to reach some sort of consensus. There is no vandalism, so drop that line of attack completely; content disagreements are explicitly not considered vandalism. The world is not going to come to an end in the time it takes to continue the conversation you're having here.”
 * User responded back, either calling other editor’s edits vandalism or COI: “I should have not used the term vandalism but rather conflict of interest. I hope there are more people that are not directly involved with the group can be a part of this discussion.” diff here

Despite making an assertion "I should have not", User repeated accusations of vandalism and as a result is currently serving a block for personal attack.

(b) Diffs where user makes persistent and malicious accusations of COI without any evidence whenever their edits are contested:
If the User finds himself in the minority view in a talk page discussion, instead of factually responding to arguments, he constantly accuses other admins/editors of Conflict of Interest without any evidence.
 * For example, instead of sticking to facts, user accused some editors saying, “you do not want this particular thing being shown about your temple” : (diff here)
 * “there is a persistent conflict of interest from the users above but from their follow-ups, there intentions will be clear” (diff here)
 * “Please wait for other administrators and users not affiliated with sect to give input: (diff here)
 * “There is no consensus because several people in your claimed consensus have a conflict of interest in the group BAPS” (diff here)
 * Changes to “There is no consensus because several people in your alliance claimed consensus have a conflict of interest in the group BAPS.”
 * User again accusses when edit reverted: “Also would you disclose if you are a member of this group as it would create a conflict of interest as per [WP:COI]” (diff here)
 * “...because there are those users that have conflict of interest and even though it is due, they do not want this information on 'their' templed” (diff here)
 * “Go ahead and call your friends to support you even though you have a strong conflict of interest as you a member of this group” (diff here)

(c) Diffs where user makes false accusations without any evidence:

 * User sent a message to User:Abecedare “I was getting bullied there because they want to portray their building in a way that ignore all factual issues that came with it.“ diff here
 * Notice board for India Related Topics - “There seems to be a group of swaminarayan followers who refuse to allow cited information in the article.” (diff here)

There is no evidence of any of user’s accusations, yet user continues to make persistent accusations that editors are vandals, have conflict of interest, and are bullying the user. User shows clear failure to engage with editors in a mature collegial manner.

[1] Akshardham article:

 * Reverts 1st time: “Reverted Vandalism Vandal erased everything including information that was agreed to be kept” - diff here
 * Accuses edits made in good-faith as vandalism for which admin warns him on talk page: “Please take the time to consider that Wikipedia policy does not consider content disputes, such as at Akshardham (Delhi)‎, to be WP:VANDALISM; and that unwarranted accusations of vandalism in edit summaries constitute personal attacks, and must be avoided. You've been doing this often, for quite a while, and it really must stop; the next time you refer to a good faith editor as a vandal, you'll likely find yourself blocked.” (diff here)
 * User ignores this warning and reverts a 2nd time and also calls it Vandalism “Reverted Vandalism”: diff here
 * Admin warns user of edit-warring: “you are starting to tread the line of WP:EDITWAR and the spirit of WP:3R with your reverts. I prefer to see users productively editing and discussing problems properly and thoughtfully” - (diff here)
 * User eventually is reported and gets blocked by admin for 48 hours block log when another editor reverts and accuses him/her of vandalism: “Reverted Vandalism or just misguided user” diff here
 * When admin warns user after getting them blocked, user continues to accuse: “There has been several new users that have been reverting that particular topic and it has been vandalism so I don't think that it was necessary to block me.”

[2] BAPS article:
Also edit warring on BAPS page until admin User:Bbb23 blocked the page until Sept 19th:
 * Reverts 1st time: diff here
 * Reverting disruptive content reinstated without requested talk page discussion: diff here
 * Reverts 2nd time: diff here
 * (I reverted)
 * Reverts 3rd time: diff here
 * Admin forced to protect page for edit warring: diff here

As soon as user was prevented from editing the BAPS due to page protection, user threatened to revert the BAPS page at an opportune time. “I am glad that I have gotten your attention because once I get a chance, I am updating that and expect to be reverted right away.” diff here

Soon after the protection was taken off, user began engaging in edit warring despite requests for talk page discussion from other editors. To the point of which another editor had to warn him: “Leave the article in the condition it was in before the Bold edit was made (often called the status quo ante), but don't engage in back-and-forth reverts” diff here

[3] Shastriji Maharaj article - mis-stating facts and reverting:

 * Reverts the edit even after the incorrectness of the edit was demonstrated: diff here
 * Doesn’t respond to the arguments in the talk page and reverts: diff here

Summary
To summarize, the user has violated all of the following Wikipedia polices: WP:BLP, WP:DISRUPT, WP:NPA, WP:HARASS, WP:Outing (attempted outing), tendentious editing WP:TE, WP:CONSPIRACY, WP:CIVIL and WP:EDITWAR.

Clearly, Swamiblue's continuous disruption is self-evident based on the above diff compilation since the user was last unblocked in May 2015. The user’s disruptive behavior hasn’t changed the slightest. I urge admin to (a) “topic ban” WP:TBAN - the user from editing topics related to Swaminarayan due to user’s disruptive edits on this topic and/or (b) Preferably “page ban” and not “article ban” WP:PBAN the user from editing Swaminarayan related pages since user has been posting content on talk page that violates BLP policies despite repeatedly blocked for such violation in addition to using the talk page as a forum and/or (c) Indefinitely block user from editing Swaminarayan related pages to enforce the ban due to their continued disruption on such articles and personal attacks.

Hollow Apologies
Admins/community should not fall for user's apologetic appeals as evidenced by this diff when they were last blocked: “You're not an ordinary editor. You're a user who was indefinitely blocked for socking on a relatively large scale, and that included using IPs to edit. You were given a second chance, but there's only so much WP:ROPE given to an editor with your history. With respect to the edit warring, you knew very well that editing the article while the current dispute was still ongoing was not permissible, but you did it anyway, and to wikilawyer your way out of it by saying it wasn't exactly the same as the other material, etc., doesn't justify it. Finally, as for the personal attacks, this is not a new issue. Your accusing others of bias because they don't agree with you has been commented on before, by me and by other users. Persisting in that conduct constitutes personal attacks, even if it's followed by an apology because the apology rings hollow when it's repetitive conduct.” link here There is also ample evidence on the same link that shows user has been warned several times for making personal attacks, disruptive editing etc.

Action Requested: Topic Ban
Such behavior disrupts the collective work of creating a useful, encyclopedic reference as it discourages editors from continuing to work on a project where they constantly have to deal with a user who behaves immaturely, ignores and constantly violates Wikipedia policies despite being warned about doing so, engages in edit-warring, constantly makes personal attacks, makes BLP violations despite being warned several times. Thus, I see an urgent need by admins and the community to protect Swaminarayan-related pages due to Swamiblue's uncontrolled disruptive behavior, as demonstrated in the diffs above. Kapil.xerox (talk) 05:03, 26 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi, Kapil.xerox. I agree with you that there has been some disruption. Pages related to India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, and also pages related to biographies of living people, are troubled areas, and are therefore subject to Arbitration committee discretionary sanctions. This means that it's easier for single uninvolved admins to sanction users who edit disruptively in these areas. For instance, topic bans can be imposed by a single admin, instead of trying to get consensus for them here on AN, something that's rather difficult if not enough people are interested enough to read a proposal. (Your proposal is overly long, you know. Readers get discouraged.) However, discretionary sanctions only come into effect once the user has been alerted to the existence of these sanctions. I have now posted alerts on the user's talkpage. Let's hope that the alerts themselves lead to more collaborative editing; if not, they can be sanctioned down the road. Bishonen &#124; talk 12:51, 26 September 2015 (UTC).

I will take your advice User talk:Bishonen and start by taking a break from wiki and more importantly watching my words. I tried so hard to get other users involved and making sure that my edits have citations but I don't know why it hasn't been working. I want to collaborate more and have asked user:kapil.xerox many time to expand the gopalanand swami article with me and at other places. I will respond to this in depth as soon as the content dispute is over at the akshardham and baps page. I would like to eventually move away from those topics and contribute elsewhere. Swamiblue (talk) 19:51, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Appeal to reduce scope of ban
Hello, my behaviour has been interpreted as disruptive due to use of resources which I was not able to understand reliable or not. Many editors have left messages and warnings on my talk pages which I have tried to adhere to. The broad conflict which I was able to understand was related to historical Indian Kings and Dynasties. None of my other edits were opposed. But the ban imposed on me is very broad in nature I.E. all the articles on Indian Religions. I invite administrators to check my contributions on Jainism related pages on which I am requesting here to lift the ban. Hence, I request very limited lifting of ban for pages of Jainism (not related to historical Kings) only since there has been no conflict whatsoever on these pages in my past contributions. Few of the examples are Jainism, Tarunsagar, Digambara, Sallekhana, Rishabha, Tirthankara, Mahavira etc. I have contributed positively on these pages and received a barnstar and many thanks for the same. Please reconsider and reduce the scope of my ban, thanks. If any of my edits on these (jainism not royalty of history) pages was disruptive please help me identify. I also want to state that I havent engaged in editwarring ever. Thanks -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Capankajsmilyo&project=en.wikipedia.org count])  10:42, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Can we have a link to the ban discussion please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.118.31 (talk) 14:08, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for replying, the discussion is on my talk page. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · [//tools.wmflabs.org/xtools-ec/?user=Capankajsmilyo&project=en.wikipedia.org count])  14:33, 26 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment I have been discussing User:Capankajsmilyo's edits with them for the past month, and while I don't doubt their good intentions and the non-controversial and helpful nature of some of their contributions, there have been a whole lot of issues with page moves, page-tagging, categorization, templates, and especially following WP:RS and WP:NPOV guidelines and correctly summarizing sources that go beyond the failure to recognize WP:HISTRS references. Each of the individual errors have been rectifiable but, as User:Bishonen noted in their topic-ban notice, the sheer number of edits/errors makes the cumulative effect disruptive. Most significant of all is the editor's failure to fully comprehend and follow the advice given to them by many experienced editors: see for example
 * the sections Can you please go slow?, Please stop, Again, please slow down on the editor's talkpage that at best had a very temporary effect;
 * this notice about a problematic pagemove, the response to which missed the specific highlighted advice to start a page move discussion; and
 * most glaring of all, the ~30 edits after the topic ban was placed that inarguable violated the ban, without any prior attempts to clarify its scope or application. FWIW, I don't think this was a willful defiance of authority; just another failure to recognize the seriousness of the issue.
 * So for the moment I cannot support a narrowing of the topic ban. Instead, I'd second the suggestion User:SpacemanSpiff had made that the user treat this as an opportunity to edit in areas where they have real-life expertise (though, they should avoid subjects with conflict of interest) and use that experience to better understand wikipedia policies. This will help them to contribute more constructively in the area of Jainism in three months time. Abecedare (talk) 23:23, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I see no reason to change the scope, this user still has quite a bit of work to do before their editing is appropriate. Guy (Help!) 22:38, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

What happened with the sidebar?
What happened with the sidebar (I think it is Women in society sidebar)? It is present on Women's rights, Women in France and many other pages. It seems to have collapsed: it is spread over the top of the page. Can someone fix it? 2A02:2F01:505F:FFFF:0:0:BC1B:B971 (talk) 01:42, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * A formatting error in an earlier edit to the template. I have found and corrected it. --86.130.118.31 (talk) 01:58, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Liancourt Rocks
The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that: For the Arbitration Committee, L235 (t / c / ping in reply ) 10:31, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Remedy 3 of the Liancourt Rocks case is rescinded.
 * 2) In its place, Standard Discretionary sanctions are authorised with immediate effect for all pages relating to the Liancourt Rocks;
 * 3) Nothing in this motion provides grounds for appeal of remedies or restrictions imposed while the article probation for the foregoing case was in force. Such appeals or requests to lift or modify such sanctions may be made under the same terms as any other appeal.
 * Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard

Arbitration clerks seeking new volunteers
The Clerks of the Arbitration Committee are currently looking for a few dependable and mature editors willing to serve as clerks. The responsibilities of clerks include opening and closing arbitration cases and motions; notifying parties of cases, decisions, and other committee actions; maintaining the requests for arbitration pages; preserving order and proper formatting on case pages; and other administrative and related tasks they may be requested to handle by the arbitrators. Clerks are the unsung heroes of the arbitration process, keeping track of details to ensure that requests are handled in a timely and efficient manner.

Past clerks have gone on to be (or already were) successful lawyers, naval officers, and Presidents of Wikimedia Chapters. The salary and retirement packages for Clerks rival that of Arbitrators, to boot. Best of all, you get a cool fez!

Please email if you are interested in becoming a clerk, and a clerk will reply with an acknowledgement of your message and any questions we want to put to you.

For the arbitration clerks, L235 (t / c / ping in reply ) 10:42, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard

Arbitration motion regarding Asgardian
The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

For the Arbitration Committee,  Jim Car  ter  15:18, 28 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard

Userpage of GregJackP
Thought I'd throw this out for admin attention. GregJackP "retired" (I use the quotes because a good many users have placed the retired template on their page only to come back or even better, continue to edit the encyclopedia while the template's on their page), he left a | rather polemic message on their page on the way out. I saw the comments and | removed them for violating WP:POLEMIC, which is policy. | reinstated his comments stating no particular policy, rather he stated the GregJackP should be allowed to have his last words. | reverted again, also claiming WP:Polemic,  | reverted back, again citing no policy at all, just an edit summary of "nope",  | reverted something (not sure what as the edits and summary are rev del'd) but in any case, he reverted back to GregJackP's WP:POLEMIC violating screed as well. | removed the screed also citing WP:POLEMIC and finally | put the screed back on, again citing no policy.

What I'm looking for here is, that policy, namely WP:POLEMIC be enforced and the screed be removed, there is clear consensus that WP:POLEMIC is being violated, none of the individuals restoring the screed have offered anything resembling any policy or guideline that states why this should be kept. Kindly enforce policy and remove the screed from GregJackP's page. Kosh Vorlon  11:02, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The edits are suppressed. I was removing inappropriate content, not added by any of the editors listed above, prior to suppressing it. That's the extent of my involvement,though I would questions whether this really matters. If GJP wants to say his piece, nobody's obliged to read it, and the encyclopaedia would be better off if folks went and wrote an article instead of arguing of meta issues. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  11:08, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * HJ has this right. Traditionally, we let leaving statements stand, unless they're extraordinarily problematic and especially if they're personal. GregJackP's comments are not. If you have an issue with the comments, unwatch the page and don't go back there. They do not fall under "Very divisive or offensive material". <b style="text-shadow:0 -1px #DDD,1px 0 #DDD,0 1px #DDD,-1px 0 #DDD; color:#000;">Worm</b>TT(<b style="color:#060;">talk</b>) 11:22, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The only part of WP:POLEMIC this could be considered to violate is perhaps "statements attacking or vilifying groups of editors" with the bit about assholes who harass people at will, and admins who are too lazy to take action on it, or who agree with the asshole's political views. But even that's a bit of a strech as no group or clique of editors is specfically named, no specific admins are attacked. It's a general criticism of wikipedia so why should anyone actually care or be offended? Is anything of value (other than the joy of kicking a vanquished opponent when they're down) gained by removing this from his userpage? Brustopher (talk) 11:20, 28 September 2015 (UTC)


 * The OP shows a grave misunderstanding of Wikipedia in general and WP:POLEMIC in particular. Johnuniq (talk) 11:28, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I've left the arbitration committee a note. Hopefully they'll get the case open and start managing this kerfuffle. NE Ent 11:48, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

With millions of articles in dire need of improvement, I find it odd that wants to waste their time moaning about the contents of a statement by a retired user. It is clear KoshVorlon has some sort of axe to grind, but they really need to forget about it and move on to improving an article somewhere. If he/she'd have invested the same amount of time on a stub somewhere, we could've added a good article to our archives by now. KoshVorlon: take your axe and your policy and go and do some good somewhere, or have you forgotten about the concept of how to build an encyclopaedia?  Cassianto Talk  14:08, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

To me it is nothing more than a parting rant, that said I agree to just let it go. Yeah I can for-see some editors who are also unhappy with Wikipedia linking the page later down the road but as Cassianto has said we are here "to build an encyclopaedia". Time to move forward... - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:23, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

A heads-up note to all those named and those who commented here : is back to removing GregJackP's parting comments stating he has consensus to do so? . Also, please see the following:. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 17:19, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh for crying out loud. I've blocked Kosh for 48 hours to prevent this dispute from escalating and causing further disruption. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  17:29, 28 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Good block, I would have done the same if you had not. <b style="color:Chocolate">HighInBC</b> (was Chillum)  18:45, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Good block Harry. Let's hope KoshVorlon learns by it and drops the issue when they return.  Cassianto Talk  18:51, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed. <b class="nounderlines" style="border:1px solid #999;background:#fff"><span style="font-family:papyrus,serif"><b style="color:#000;font-size:100%">Minor</b><b style="color:#f00;font-size:80%">4th</b> </b> 22:04, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Im a bit surprised here seeing you had already warned that blocks would be handed out, oh well. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:58, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Who are you talking to?  Cassianto Talk  19:59, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry if it wasn't clear, I was replying to Chillum (Now known as HighInBC). - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:02, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Eyes needed for BLPN thread
Please see WP:BLPN thread Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard.

All sources cited need to be checked at this page, one-by-one, for failure of WP:RS especially about WP:EXCEPTIONAL claims and Conspiracy theories.

This page could stand to have some aggressive removal of sources that fail WP:RS for controversial claims about a 14-year-old boy.

Thank you for your attention to this matter,

&mdash; Cirt (talk) 21:31, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Admins please see also Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 21:54, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Blocked 24 hours. Still have outstanding issues with page in question at Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard, with regards to lots of sources that fail WP:RS. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 22:08, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Admins please see Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard. &mdash; Cirt (talk) 23:22, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Kindly unblock my page
While trying to create a page for my pastor and the church, i notice that some rules were violated.

I here by request for your permission to allow me make needed corrections as soon as you unblock me.

morealso, i want to edit my account and make necessary corrections but i don't know

thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pastor Ogunsanya (talk • contribs) 13:47, 29 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I see no indication that you have been blocked. However, it does appear that you are trying to create an inappropriate article.  The article appears to be an autobiography and is promotional, and will almost certainly be deleted if added to article space.  This noticeboard is for requesting administrator action, and you haven't requested an administrator action.  I suggest that you ask for advice at the Teahouse, but the advice is likely to be discouraging, because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a directory, and you are not allowed to create an article where you have a conflict of interest.  Robert McClenon (talk) 15:25, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It may be that the user is referring to the "A previous article by this name was deleted" notice on Bible Pattern Church, although I don't think the name has been salted (I didn't try to create it, as I could not delete it if it worked). BMK (talk) 16:42, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Not salted. BMK (talk) 16:49, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * User:Bible Pattern Church is blocked. They created the article Bible Pattern Church, which was deleted as A7 (not notable enough for inclusion in the encyclopedia) and G11 (unambiguous advertising). -- Diannaa (talk) 18:34, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It should be noted that a person is not disallowed from creating an article where they have a conflict of interest. It is just strongly discouraged because of the likelihood of the article not being neutral. If they are able to create a neutral article with multiple reliable and verifiable sources, more power to them. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 18:56, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If the quasi-article which is their user page is an example of what they created, and want to re-create, it doesn't stand up to notability requirments. BMK (talk) 22:06, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Backlog at WP:CFD/Speedy
Hello.

There is a backlog at WP:CFD/Speedy. It would be great if an admin could do at least a small effort there to get the bot working.

Thanks in advance.

HandsomeFella (talk) 16:29, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Civility?
Nonconformity Civility by the User:Sanderron. see--<span style="font-family:phalls Khodkar, B Fantezy, B Ferdosi">SaməkTalk 09:36, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * A death threat, even if not a very convincing one, is a bit worse than uncivil. Blocked for 72 hours. Sometimes people are indeffed for this kind of thing, and I won't object if another admin extends my block. However, the complainant doesn't exactly sound alarmed, and I'm sure they have no reason to be, either. Bishonen &#124; talk 09:49, 27 September 2015 (UTC).


 * I have increased it to indef. The calmness of the complainant is laudable, however this person is likely to saw something else to another editor given their opinions about Persians. I don't want this person coming back in 3 days and I doubt anyone else does either. As always my actions are open to review. <b style="color:Chocolate">HighInBC</b> (was Chillum)  15:58, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

One more thing...
Would an admin consider revdeleting this though?  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 03:29, 30 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Done. <b style="color:Chocolate">HighInBC</b> 03:31, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Best practices for BLP subjects and date of birth
Hello everyone. I am requesting guidance as to best practices when determining date of birth for WP:BLP subjects, and when we should publish such information when available sources are poor.

Take for example the Nadeshot article. There are no reliable third party sources which report on this subject's date of birth. That said, there are two self-published sources (Twitter and YouTube) which make vague or passing references to the month and day of the birthday, and a third party source (Business Insider) which identifies the subject as 22-years-old at the time of publication. See the discussion at Talk:Nadeshot. Is this sufficient?

My concern is that this strikes me as synthesis of published material/original research, with the added concern that living subjects are not always truthful with their date of birth. I take a conservative viewpoint when dealing with WP:BLP articles, but as this may be a grey area for some I am requesting community feedback.

Regards, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Yamaguchi%E5%85%88%E7%94%9F&action=edit&amp;section=new Yamaguchi先生] 22:49, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Is their date of birth relevant to their notability? Does having their exact age and date of birth in the article increase our understanding of them in any way? (Other than knowing how old they are.) Given this person is only notable for being quite good at a videogame, just leave it out and dont worry about it. If someone uses synth/OR to work it in, call them on it and remove it, taking it to the BLP board if necessary. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:46, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Took a closer look, I dont think it qualifies as synth or original research. 'X happened on X - 2 days before my birthday' is fairly conclusive when coming from a primary source. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:57, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * We have Age as of date btw - so if a RS confirms they are X years old on Y date, use that template. GiantSnowman 08:04, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It seems to be okay per WP:SELFPUB, but if he lists other dates as his birthday then it can be contested as an exceptional claim. I agree that the thank you tweet isn't sufficient but the other one where he says "August 1, two days before my birthday" appears to be legit as long as it's not acting. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 01:21, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

New revdel script
Hey, all, NeilN suggested I advertise my new script on AN, so here it is: User:Writ Keeper/Scripts/massRevdel.js. Install to your vectorjs/monobook.js/common.js as usual. It adds an interface to directly revision-delete (or undelete) a user's edits from their contribution page, along with select all/select none capabilities and the standard assortment of canned log summaries. As always with scripts in general and admin scripts in particular, please take care when using it; especially be aware that there might be surrounding edits by other users that need to be revdeled that this script won't catch. Still, it's there if you find it useful. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 21:14, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, fantastic script! I will write here with some additional thoughts I had about this, since this page is much more heavily trafficked: How about we revamp WP:NAS to show the script-assisted ways of doing things? Right not it just says "here's how to do it the hard way" and it's up to the new admin to find out there's a wealth of scripts like massRevdel that will make your life easier. We have User scripts but that is rarely checked and out of date, and also doesn't show you how we would use the scripts in practice. Thoughts? I'm willing to put a good amount of effort into this &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  21:23, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me -- Guerillero &#124;  Parlez Moi  02:37, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Non-admin endorsement. In my experience, these "helper scripts" are among the most useful things existing in Wikipedia's backrooms. Listing the admin ones on the new admin pages seems like a good idea to me.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:22, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Promotion of Liz to full clerk
The Arbitration Committee is pleased to announce that is promoted to full clerk, effective immediately. We thank Liz and the entire clerk team for their dedication and helpfulness.

For the Arbitration Committee; Courcelles (talk) 02:00, 30 September 2015 (UTC) Cross-posting in accordance with procedure. For the Arbitration Committee, L235 (t / c / ping in reply ) 02:06, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard

Backlog at WP:Geonotice
Hi all, I was wondering if someone with a few more technical chops than I can have a look at WP:Geonotice, which has a number of requests that haven't been addressed for some time. As full disclosure, I have my own request there awaiting action. Lankiveil (speak to me) 12:22, 30 September 2015 (UTC).

Usernames for administrator attention
I have been editing Wikipedia for some years now. I have good understanding of username policy. But these days I am noticing that most of the inappropriate usernames are not getting blocked. Some of the blatant violations of usernames are taken to WP:UAA/HP. I never recommend to bite newcomers but practically only newcomers can be reported at WP:UAA. I am confused now, what is the blatant violation of the username? I know that blocking a new user is not actually something we want to do, it is something we do when it is needed to protect Wikipedia from harm. Generally, editors whose usernames are a technical or borderline violation of the Username policy should be given an opportunity to discuss the username and how they may register a new username, but blatant violation should be blocked. Even now we are holding pen on obvious violators. Either we should change the policy or we should be informed more clearly why a blatant violator of username has been given an opportunity when they are obvious promitional and a single purpose account. Hitro  talk  19:25, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I have to agree that sometimes the admins who patrol UAA get a bit blasé about enforcing the policy. I don't recommend changing the policy, I think it might be better if admins who have been doing UAA take periodic breaks from it in order to reset themselves.  At one point I had been told so many times that an obviously problematic username I reported was not going to be dealt with that I just stopped reporting them entirely for a while, since it seemed to have become an empty exercise. BMK (talk) 21:39, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the admins are sticking strictly to policy. WP:USERNAME states except in extreme cases, it is probably not worth taking action unless the user has made at least one recent edit. Usually no action is taken unless the editor is actively editing. Sometimes users register accounts with awful names and then never use them. As far as I've seen, typically no action is taken then.
 * Also, policy states:
 * Blocking a new user is not actually something we want to do, it is something we do when it is needed to protect Wikipedia from harm. Generally, editors whose usernames are a technical or borderline violation of the Username policy should be given an opportunity to discuss the username and how they may register a new username. However, users who are reluctant to register a new username and are otherwise showing a positive history of contributions to Wikipedia should be allowed to continue editing in a positive fashion and the matter should be dropped.
 * This is basically advising admins that if the editor is productive, usernames shouldn't be an issue unless they cross this "borderline" of offensiveness. It might be worth initiating a policy discussion on what is "blatant violation" and what is borderline because when you see the usernames that get reported, there is quite a range of what editors find inappropriate. Liz Read! Talk! 21:57, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There is a long list of supposed blatant violators who will never get blocked at WP:UAA/HP. I would like input from . I have noticed her refusing most of the reports.  Hitro   talk  22:11, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The instructions say to not use blocking as the first course of action. It says "Wait until the user edits"; "We do not want to welcome productive editors with a report at UAA. Nor do we want to waste our time dealing with accounts that may never be used." It's been my experience that usually if the new account does not start editing immediately, they never edit at all. Cases tagged as "wait" and "discuss" are moved to the holding pen, where they are checked within the next couple of weeks. Any who persist get blocked at that point. The vast majority (well over 99 per cent) cease editing when they are made aware of the policy. I see BMK's point that admins should take a break from this task now and then, and I agree. Someone else can look after it for a while; I have been doing it daily since March 11. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:16, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a crappy, crappy job and you should be thanked every day for doing it. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 22:23, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That policy needs a good dose of consistency. One of your quotes is preceded by "If the name is not unambiguously problematic..." We have the unambiguous, "The following types of usernames are not permitted because they are considered promotional..." Are these technical violations or something else? We have admins who hardblock anything remotely promotional even if they're asking a question at the help desk. Other admins wait to see edits but shouldn't blarf.com be blocked no matter what and doesn't the softblock message (" Welcome to Wikipedia. Because we have a policy against usernames which give the impression that the account represents a group, organization or website, I have blocked this account; please take a moment to create a new account with a username that represents only yourself as an individual and which complies with our username policy.") adequately convey what the user needs to do? --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 22:20, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Many users think they are naming their article when what they are actually doing is selecting a username. Many users come here purely with the intention of creating the one article about their company, their band, or themselves. Once they find out they will not be able to do that, they leave. There's generally no reason to expect them to change their minds and start improving articles on other topics. Adding: The quotes in my earlier post are from the "Instructions" page, which does not agree with the "Policy" page. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:31, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Users are reporting them per policies. They know what many users may think. You gotta give some extra comment other than "Being discussed with user" while denying the report. I believe the people who report are equally aware with the guidelines and policies. Hitro   talk  22:40, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * What extra comment do you expect? --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 22:45, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I need proper reasons for refusal, specially when something is blatant and obvious. Not an extra comment. I guess you are not understanding me. I have opened this thread here cuz the word "blatant violation of username" is getting out of  understanding. Some Usernames are getting blocked some are not . There should be some consistency.  Hitro   talk  22:53, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As Diannaa pointed out, there is an disconnect between policy and Usernames_for_administrator_attention/Instructions. Resolve that and you'll probably get more consistency. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 23:47, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I raised this topic after reading all related policies and specially essays like these. THIS IS NOT MY PERSONAL PROBLEM. We need consistency NOT specifically me. I have contacted Diannaa 2 or 3 weeks ago and took her view too, it must be in her talk page archives. By the way Usernames_for_administrator_attention/Instructions these instructions are for reporters not  for administrators. I am not talking about wrong reports, I am talking about how the reports are being dealt with.  Hitro   talk  01:40, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm probably not going to be liked for this but IMHO UFAA has become a complete joke and it's why I never bother reporting anyone there anymore, In my eyes if someone creates a stupid/offensive username they deserve blocking even if they've only vandalized once (If you block them least you know for sure they're not gonna come back & finished what they started), I appreciate not all reports are block-worthy but compared to say a year ago barely anyone at UFAA is getting blocked these days and as I used to always report there I began to feel like I was simply wasting my time which is why as I said I don't bother anyone, But that's just my 2¢ anyway – Davey 2010 Talk 23:39, 27 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't really understand the reasons for not blocking usernames that are obvious violations of policy if they haven't edited as I don't see what difference it makes. If a username is an issue then why would we wait for them to use that username before we block? I don't understand the argument that most accounts don't end up editing because noting that the issue is being dealt with, putting them in a holding pen, and checking back periodically to see if they've edited is far more work than just blocking with a block notice that explains why that username has been disallowed and that they should create another. Sam Walton (talk) 23:49, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree, especially since the "username block" notice is, IIRC, fairly softly worded. If necessary, if it would encourage more immediate blocks of obviously untenable names, the template can be softened even more: "Welcome to Wikipedia, my friend, but I'm afraid you've made a wee bit of a teensy mistake: unfortunately the username you've chosen violates our policy about that sort of thing, so, please read our policy here, and then go to here and ask for your name to be changed.  It'll be easy, and then you're all set to edit Wikipedia" kind of thing. Waiting for editing before notifying is just plain silly: the only reason a name is created is, presumably, to edit, so why not clear up the problems with it right off the bat, instead of hoping that someone will catch it later along the line?  It's been caught now, so deal with it now. BMK (talk) 01:15, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 85% of the time I soft or hard block promo user names when they're reported to AIV (offensive/disruptive usernames get a instablock). 15% of the time the editor is editing and responding to others in a friendly way so I nudge them towards WP:CHU without the unpleasantness of a block. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 02:30, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Then you're doing a good job, Neil, and I thank you for it. BMK (talk) 03:23, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't block unused or stale usernames because blocking's purpose is to stop someone from editing: If the person isn't editing, a block stops nothing. If someone came with an IP edit from three years ago to AIV and reported them demanding a block, it'd get laughed off the page.  Yet, people bring 3-year old usernames to UAA and expect their pound of flesh for what?  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 05:01, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If a person has made a username in violation of policy, a block stops them from editing with that username, which is a positiive thing. It's attitudes such as the one you've presented here that I object to on UAA.  Who gives a flying fig if the username is three years old?  If it violates username policy, it violates username policy , whether it's discovered when it's created, three years later, or when it starts editing.  A little preventative action would go a long way towards protecting the encyclopedia, since there is a definite positive correlation between username policy violations and policy-violating edits.   This is obvious to anyone who's been here long enough and hasn't been blinded by AGF-fever. BMK (talk) 05:32, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Your thirst for blood is telling, but thankfully not a requirement for being an admin. Indeed, most admins are much more level-headed and uninterested in vengeance, as your tone implies that you are.  This difference in worldview is likely the source of your misunderstanding of how this situation should be handled.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 05:36, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, incidentally, on the meat of your objection, I never once brought up AGF. I said we don't block unused accounts because we only block to stop editing.  If you're going to disagree with someone, don't invent words they didn't say and the disagree with your own invented words.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 05:39, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "Your thirst for blood is telling"? "Vengence"? -- hold on a second, let me check something.... Wow, you are an adminstrator. I thought you were, but your hyperbolic overkill made me wonder there for a moment, since I generally expect better from admins. Why don't you dial it back a little, champ, being an admin doesn't give you carte blanche to whip the rank-and-file editors when they dare to disagree with you.  We eben got da vote now, massa.I suggest that your approach to UAA is not supportive of the username policy, and that you might want to voluntarily withdraw from duty there in the future, since you apparently can't see the benefit of blocking violating usernames before they have a chance to edit, which a number of -- admittedly non-admin (i.e. lower caste) editors -- seem to feel is a worthwhile thing to do. A violation is a violation , whether it takes places before editing or after. BMK (talk) 06:17, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * So, in other words, you alone get to decide how admins should handle UAA. Nice.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 06:48, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I will note that Usernames for administrator attention/Instructions states "Wait until the user edits. Do not report a user that hasn't edited unless they are clearly a vandal. We do not want to welcome productive editors with a report at UAA. Nor do we want to waste our time dealing with accounts that may never be used.." If you wish this rule to be changed, so that admins are allowed to block accounts based on reports from before a user edits, feel free.  Until then, I'm going to continue following the rules I am told to follow, exactly as they are written, even if you tell me to violate the rules in bold letters.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 07:06, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I guess you didn't actually read the thread before you decided to bless us with your interpretation of the situation, specifically the place above where Dianaa makes it clear that the "Instructions" you just quoted are at odds with the policy they are meant to enforce. Now, do you imagine in that situation that the instructions prevail, or the policy they are meant to interpret? The works of man are often errant, but in the final account, the policy is what it important, not that insttuctions, which are secondary to them.  I suggest you read, and enforce, the policy, or simply bow out of enforcing UAA if you're not willing to do so. BMK (talk) 08:00, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There's a difference between a violation and the proper response to a violation. Sometimes, the proper response to a violation is to do nothing, especially where the use of resources to handle the violation outweighs the benefits of doing anything at all.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 11:02, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Blocking all unacceptable usernames on sight would just encourage username trolling. The laissez-faire approach seems more practical. Debouch (talk) 14:16, 30 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Admins are a scarce and busy resource and have other more pressing backlogs to prioritise. So UAA is designed like AIV, to prevent admins being presented with lots of unnecessary reports where admins are not required to act immediately (though they could act), so they can concentrate on blocking those who need blocking most. Most of these users just need the policy or the problem pointing out to them, which doesn't take an admin. Informing them of the policy usually serves the same purpose as a block. When it doesn't, then they can be reported and blocked. -- zzuuzz (talk) 07:32, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Of course admins are a scarce resource, and no one expects them to scour the project to find usernames to block, but if an editor is good standing reports a username which is in obvious violation of policy, then it is incumbent on an admin policing usernames to block it .' I'm getting a little annoyed with the idea that admins are a independent force not answerable to the community of editors at large. Admins are there to enforce the policies which the community has agreed upon.  Although no individual admin at any one time is required to act if they do not want to, any admin who does not agree with the bulk of the community's policies ought to turn in their bit.  They may refuse to act, but they  certainly  should not reject the reasonable requests of editors to block violating usernames: there is a distinct difference between standing aside and not acting, and turning down and archiving a request, which is a typical non-response at UAA. BMK (talk) 08:12, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * So again, you're stating that admins are only to do what you, BMK in the singular, tell them to do, and are not to follow any other policies or rules, and are definitely not allowed to have a good faith difference in interpretation of those policies, because you write with bolds and italics and underlines, and therefore your particular way to understand a policy is the only possible way, and that others with a difference of understanding of those policies are wrong merely because they don't agree with you? Or are they wrong because you've vigorously highlighted your responses to them in every way known to Wikipedia?  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 11:02, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Jayron: Your attempts to personalize a policy discussion are disturbing, especially coming from an admin. BMK (talk) 19:44, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * pots should refrain from noting the colors of kettles...-- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 05:06, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry that I forced you to use "pound of flesh" in your very first edit to this discussion, and that I made you respond to my comment with "thirst for blood" and "vengence", and then twisted your arm to make you post comments like "So, in other words, you alone get to decide how admins should handle UAA. Nice." I'm not quite sure  how  I made you do it -- and would like to find out so I can bend the will of others to my advantage in the future -- but I must have, because you're an admin and I'm not, so it must be all my fault.  Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, and I apologize profusely for your inability to hold your temper.  Perhaps you should take a break, turn in the bit and relax a while. (What am I saying?  I can make you do that!!!  Trying now...) BMK (talk) 14:56, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You obtusely and deliberately mischaracterized an argument based on policy as "AGF-fever", when AGF was never mentioned as a rationale, and when called on it, immediately claimed to be victimized by evil admins out to get you. I'd call that firing the first shot in the mischaracterization war.  -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 06:28, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That's a very interesting perceptual filter you've got going there, Jayron. You should take a closer look at it, since it badly distorts reality, and could potentially get you into trouble in the future. BMK (talk) 12:06, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * zzuuzz, to be fair to BMK, a hard/soft block takes up less admin resources than messaging the editor, moving the report to the holding pen, and then checking back to see if anything should be done. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 13:03, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * User:Mathematics without Borders this one is a good example. A blatant violation of username policy, that got reported accordingly 2 days back. They came back today read the message left by an admin on the talk page and they recreated the promotional page again. 5 admin actions are already wasted on this user id. When will this one get blocked? I am talking about this kind of consistency. If this is not blatant then what is blatant. Why this one was taken to WP:UAA/HP? It's commonsense sometimes, some accounts are really made for one purpose and that purpose is to promote their company or firm. You can't expect a cat to bark, at least not every time. Hitro   talk  19:26, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Uneven enforcement is something that has been going on since back before we had formal noticeboards for usernames. The solution now is the same as it was back then, if you disagree with a block or a failure to block you can take the name for further discussion at WP:RFCN. Once there you will get a wider set a views rather than depend one whoever happened to review the report. <b style="color:Chocolate">HighInBC</b> (was Chillum)  19:39, 28 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I'd just like to throw something out there regarding preemptive username blocking. Most of the time, even when the name itself is an unambiguous violation, it's best to wait for edits to determine whether or not there is actual disruptive intent behind the username. If there is, they should be hardblocked immediately. If not, they should be softblocked and allowed to choose a new name. Many websites don't have any sort of restrictions on usernames, so it's not entirely unreasonable that new user User:Poopmonster666 might honestly be here to help, but is unaware that we even have a username policy. Until they edit, we have no way of knowing. There are exceptions, however; I've blocked plenty of names without waiting for edits, but that's for stupidly obvious worst-of-the-worst names whose intentions are clear. But the response has to be proportionate to the damage done. We're not out for blood - if we're telling new users to go away forever for trivial username infractions, that kinda makes us look like dicks. --Bongwarrior (talk) 06:03, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but no. Poopmonster666 obviously knew exactly what they were doing, even if they were totally unaware of the specific policy, and should be blocked immediately upon being found, even if they never make an edit. The same goes for Hitlersbuddy88.  Some things are just too obvious and AGF runs out almost immediately. BMK (talk) 15:01, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Trivial usernames should only be soft-blocked; if there's a username which implies shared use it should only be softblocked with the hardly aggressive sounding Template:Uw-softerblock. Sam Walton (talk) 08:33, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Pretty much 100% of what Bongwarrior said. -- Jayron <b style="color:#090">32</b> 13:33, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I do not support blocking any username unless they have made any edit. Usernames can mean anything in any language unless we interpret their intentions while reviewing their edits. Fucking is a place, kiss means pee in swedish, slut is the word for "the end" (Danish) and fart means speed in Denmark. A username like NeedForFart can be acceptable and appropriate unless the user's edits are malicious. Poopmonster666 does not deserve a block unless they blank Kanye West page and replace it with "I am a poop monster!!! yay!!!" (for e.g.) .  Hitro   talk  19:14, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, no. "NeedForFart" is not written in Danish, it's written in English. There's no ambiguity whatsoever about what it means. "Fart" as a user name might use that excuse, but if the name were created here, then it's judged by the standards of en.wiki, in English.  There's absolutely no need to extend AGF to that kind of quasi-vandalism. Admins need to take a much more pro-active response to this issue. BMK (talk) 20:12, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You have a valid point. There is always an upper limit to AGF and it should not be breached. AGF attitude at it's extreme may become a burden to the project in some situations. Hitro   talk  21:38, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Would it be worth an RfC to settle the debate surrounding pre-edit username blocks? Sam Walton (talk) 11:42, 30 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Reporting usernames that have not edited is a waste of time for both the reporter and the handler. Sometimes I wish we would do away with usernames altogether, enforcement of username policy is intrinsically BITEy. –<b style="font-family:verdana;color:#000">xeno</b><sup style="color:#000">talk 13:26, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a "waste of time" only if the admin doesn't do something about it. If they let it sit so it can fester, yes, then the reporter has indeed wasted his time, which I believe was the essence of the initial complaint. WP:BITE is just a guideline, so the WP:USERNAMES policy takes precedence. BMK (talk) 19:21, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

If people think policy should be changed that should be proposed on the policy talk page. I see no reason not to block on sight obvious violations, regardless of if they have edited or not. The goal is prevention after all. <b style="color:Chocolate">HighInBC</b> 15:23, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Floquenbeam
If anyone has private contact with Floq and would not mind passing on a message, can they please email me? Thanks. Guy (Help!) 16:17, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

MFD
Anyone else notice that the entirety of MFD is being created by one person's listings? It's just one person who's responsible for probably close to half of the recent MFDs and they are problematic to say the least. Someone should speak to them about whether all these listings are a good use of time. 166.170.51.8 (talk) 04:53, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree. Someone should talk with Ricky81682 about the huge backlog he's created at MFD for listings that are all wrong. It's not helpful to have everything he finds deleted. 166.176.58.100 (talk) 05:07, 4 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Can you share some more details about why these nominations are "wrong"? The ones that have attracted comment generally have supported the nominator.  Do you have any article that has been listed by User:Ricky81682 at MFD recently?  Lankiveil (speak to me) 05:46, 4 October 2015 (UTC).


 * I should add that it is quite the impressive coincidence that the two completely separate anonymous IP users agreeing with each other here should happen to be using the same ISP, which geolocates to the same metro area. Lankiveil (speak to me) 05:50, 4 October 2015 (UTC).

Range block of disruptive IP editor needed
This undoubtedly is the same editor using two different IPs, and undoubtedly the same editor who's been out for Ricky81682's blood for a while now. They've filed numerous reports on AN/I, including one just recently which was closed 3 times and ended in a block for 166.176.58.105. We could do with a range block here. BMK (talk) 05:50, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I think a rangeblock was evaluated by, but WP:RBI should be applicable. I do that when I see it and it's unlikely to be helpful right now. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  06:01, 4 October 2015 (UTC)


 * This may help. These are some of the 166 IPs who are involved:

-
 * 166.170.44.22
 * 166.170.47.240
 * 166.170.48.130
 * 166.170.49.106
 * 166.170.49.189
 * 166.170.50.131
 * 166.170.50.141
 * 166.170.50.153
 * 166.170.50.156
 * 166.170.51.185
 * 166.170.51.211
 * 166.170.51.218
 * 166.170.51.8
 * 166.176.57.153
 * 166.176.57.66
 * 166.176.58.100
 * 166.176.58.105
 * 166.176.58.155
 * 166.176.59.12
 * 166.176.59.124
 * 166.176.59.18


 * BMK (talk) 06:05, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Range 166.170.32.0/19 (covers 8192 IP addresses) has over 500 edits in the last two weeks, only a handful of which come from this person. Range 166.176.56.0/22 (covers 1024 IP addresses): nearly a hundred edits in the last coupla weeks, and again too much collateral damage to consider a range block. -- Diannaa (talk) 15:04, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Nuts. What about an edit filter for anything from those ranges which mentions Ricky81682? BMK (talk) 15:35, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the simplest thing to do here would be to revert at sight before any response or hat the section if there are any responses. As seen above, he hops IPs within a few minutes when it's needed. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  15:52, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh this guy again. He's generally pretty easy to spot, which I won't mention per WP:BEANS, but those familiar with the editing history on Koch Industries may have an inkling what I mean. Blackmane (talk) 01:30, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

remove my account creator and epcampus permissions
I haven't used my account creator or epcampus flags in more than a year and I don't expect to anytime in the near future. Please remove them from my account. Chris Troutman ( talk ) 20:09, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Done. --<b style="color:navy">Neil N </b> <i style="color:blue">talk to me</i> 20:16, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

RfC about RfA's admin production
Anyone watching this page is invited to comment on this RfC concerning whether or not RfA is producing enough admins to meet the needs of Wikipedia. Please do not comment in this section, but rather take all discussion to the RfC itself. Thanks. -- Biblio worm  20:50, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Harmful posts on my talk page
A user from IP address, whose only contributions are several comments on an ITN nomination in which he mentions a "Russian propaganda" made from two different IP addresses (Special:Contributions/93.215.73.242 and Special:Contributions/93.215.69.93), is bothering me from a third IP address by complaining on incivility on my talk page and requesting apologies (Special:Contributions/93.215.90.216). Could anyone help me deal with this user, who is apparently not here to contribute in building an encyclopedia but to gripe on his wounded ego and bother other users? Thanks.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 07:00, 5 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I can semi-protect your talk page for a little while if you like. Let me know. <b style="color:Chocolate">HighInBC</b> 15:27, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Semi-protection for 24 hours so that only registered editors can edit is enough for now. Thanks.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:33, 5 October 2015 (UTC)


 * No problem, I have done that. You can contact me on my talk page if there is any further trouble. <b style="color:Chocolate">HighInBC</b> 20:41, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Note that what prompted all this were personal attacks by User:Kiril Simeonovski, and his refusal to retract the personal attack or to apologize (but apparently being asked to be courteous bothers him.). Quite a misrepresentation he offers above, including the claim that I am not here to build an encyclopedia. So thanks everyone for the warm welcome and the collegial atmosphere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.154.214.126 (talk) 22:10, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Please provide diffs of these personal attacks.  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 22:40, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

CSD request for admins willing to think out of the box
Could someone please delete Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Supdiop per WP:G9 and 3/4, pointless nonsense and/or trolling on the talk page of a closed Rfa talk page? NE Ent 09:38, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Nonsense, Jester. What harm does it do, and how is it either nonsense or trolling? Obviously the candidate, User:Supdiop, was frustrated at not having time to answer these questions before the early close of his RFA, and now he's answering them on the RFA talkpage — logged out to evade a block, yes. But those responses to RFA questions are a lot more constructive than the venting he's been doing "legally" on his talkpage during the block, and IMO they show, if anything, an attempt to return to constructive interactions. How does that hurt Wikipedia? What would be the point in upsetting the user further by deleting it? And I don't understand your conditional flattery about "thinking outside the box", either. Genuinely outside the box would be to let it stand, to ignore the block evasion, and to try to keep this user even though they got upset because of the painful RFA process. That's my recommendation. Bishonen &#124; talk 09:57, 5 October 2015 (UTC).
 * Oh, I didn't realize they were blocked -- had the Rfa but not their talk page watchlisted. Thought it was some other person. Now that you point that out ... Block evasion? What block evasion? I see nothing ... NE Ent 10:21, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Non-Admin closure
I contest the non-admin closure of Monica Beverly Hillz by User:Sam Sailor. The close is not non-controversial and you can tell from the comments that there is activism involved with the keeps. Would an admin please check this out? Thank you Hekerui (talk) 13:34, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah someone else who thinks admins have magical consensus-divining powers. Nothing controversial about it. Passes GNG (albeit barely in my opinion) due to the amount of sources and coverage. The Huff Post one being the most reliable. Best case scenario for you - someone *might* have closed it as no-consensus due to the various arguments for/against, but it would still have defaulted to being kept then. Nothing to see here. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:41, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Why make assumptions about me? When one reads "to delete this page would constitute transphobia" in the keeps one sould get cautious and not close this as non-controversial by claiming a "wast majority" in the argument. Hekerui (talk) 13:51, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Wait, you're not an admin, this request was not directed at you at all. Hekerui (talk) 13:52, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It looks like the close reflects the comments made at the AFD. Looking at the sheer numbers there are three delete recommendations and six keeps.  Of the 3 deletes, I would discount the one from the IP as they are using a non-policy related reason (not popular) to argue for deletion.  Of the 6 deletes, again I would discount the one IP as their argument is also not policy related (what they personally believe and transphobia).  Every other argument is based on whether she meets GNG or not.  All the arguments from the 7 remaining recommendations are of equal weight as far as their policy implications.  With 5 editors saying she does meet GNG and 2 saying she does not, the only possible outcome for the AFD is keep.  -- GB fan 14:11, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * That analysis not what I came here for, I merely wanted to point out that a non-admin close is only appropriate if it's truly non-controversial, and an admin can redo it properly. Hekerui (talk) 15:13, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Wrong venue. If you wish to contest the AfD do the following:
 * First discuss with the closer on their talk page.
 * File a deletion review.
 * There is nothing to be resolved at this page. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:19, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not contesting, I asked for the normal process to be followed. That means a real admin closes the discussion. That has nothing to with deletion review, so please don't be so dismissive. Hekerui (talk) 15:13, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * (EC with closer) There is nothing controversial about the close or the subject matter. Sexuality-based topics are not inherantly 'controversial'. To explain - controversial in the case of closing a discussion would be where it is a close call, arguing rationales could go either way etc (as an example). Where a close is obviously a keep/delete due to the discussion, the topic at hand does not make it suddenly controversial and require an admin. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:25, 5 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Vacate NAC by Sam Sailor, and proceed with admin closure, as requested by OP. Per WP:BADNAC - Sam Sailor made two comments in the discussion, showing a definite stance on the issue. That definitely bars him from closing the discussion. Also, this is the correct venue for this case. The OP complained about wrong procedure, and NACs are supposed to be undone only by uninvolved admins. Kraxler (talk) 15:36, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Based on this information which I was not aware before of I have undone the closure and closed it myself. The result is the same, I hope that the same answer is more palatable from an uninvolved person. <b style="color:Chocolate">HighInBC</b> 15:38, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, HighInBC. User:Hekerui, if you disagree with the result, you may file a report at WP:DRV which is the venue to debate the merits of the result of an AfD. However, by far most users frown upon a request to change "keep" to "no consensus". A "delete" outcome, in this case, assessing the !votes, seems to be out of the question. Kraxler (talk) 15:43, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:NAC/WP:BADNAC is an essay. Looking at the history of the page reveals a little more about Sam Sailor's close.  All three edits, the two comments and the close were all done within minutes of each other.  To me it looked like Sam was just commenting on those in the course of his close.  Since the comments were on two comments that were non-policy related and should be discounted, one keep and one delete, it wouldn't change the outcome.  The close should have been left to stand.  -- GB fan 15:50, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The closer is supposed to assess the !votes "as is", not to first comment on them or on anything marked with other bolded introductions like "comment". Also, AfD is not a ballot, the closing rationale as "by vast majority" is totally off the mark. BADNAC is a rewrite of WP:NACD, I should have quoted the latter. It says: "Closing discussions in which you have offered an opinion...should be avoided." Sam Sailor has offered two opinions, it doesn't make any difference whether it was yesterday or just before closing a discussion. Kraxler (talk) 16:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

This is really getting into the realm of process wonkery. We could get 10 admins to close that and they would all come to the same conclusion. It does not really matter which name is on the closure. Perhaps we can all just move on? <b style="color:Chocolate">HighInBC</b> 16:04, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You're absolutely right. Good bye, for now. Kraxler (talk) 16:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Paul Trussell Edits
Hello, I wanted to inform you guys that User:86.20.223.120 is making edits on Paul Trussell claiming to be Paul Trussell. I have a hard time believing that a famous person would give out his identity knowing that somebody could trace his IP address. To be quite frank, I do not believe this editor is Paul Trussell, but I don't know how to handle this situation. CLCStudent (talk) 17:26, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * There's no reason to doubt it's him—since UK IP addresses are generally hyperdynamic, all his IP address is going to disclose is that he's somewhere in the UK (it will almost certainly have changed again by tomorrow). Contrary to popular belief, Wikipedia has no rule against editing the article on yourself, provided one adheres to WP:COI, and the edits don't appear excessively promotional. &#8209; iridescent 20:15, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * However, one should inform the IP address that if it is him, he would do best to create an account and follow the COI guidelines to avoid a giant COI notice slapped on the front of the article or anything like that. The minor things can be done via talk page edit requests and serious issues can go to OTRS. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:51, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Yep. And don't assume that "famous persons" know all about IP addresses and Internet privacy. I fairly often work with bio article subjects (especially pro pool players) who make no efforts of any kind to hide who they are and from where they are editing. I myself being part of the old "digirati" crowd with a well-know public history and face, a published book, etc., make zero effort to hide my identity here, and I even publish my IP addresses here in a transcluded box on my talk page, on purpose so no one can ever accuse me falsely of socking or suppose that fake edits spoofing me are really from me (both of these have happened in the past). I'm even an Internet privacy maven (much of the book I co-authored is about this). You have little to fear from IP address disclosure unless you are or are likely to be the target of cyberstalking, in which cause use some form of proxy to randomize your IP address. IP addresses generally reveal little but what ISP you are using in what general area, unless you are editing from a compay address and the company has their own class-C IP address block that pinpoints a street address.  Anyone who's a celeb can have their tech-savvy entourage members help them with proxies if they feel the need.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  05:50, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration temporary injunction for the Genetically modified organisms arbitration case
The Arbitration Committee has enacted the following temporary injunction, to expire at the closure of the Genetically modified organisms arbitration case: For the Arbitration Committee, L235 (t / c / ping in reply ) 10:55, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all pages relating to to genetically modified organisms and agricultural biotechnology, including glyphosate, broadly interpreted, for as long as this arbitration case remains open. Any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in this topic area, after an initial warning.
 * 2) Editors are prohibited from making more than one revert per page per day within the topic area found in part 1 of this injunction, subject to the usual exemptions.
 * Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard

Questionable Deletions
'''No admin assistance needed. Nyttend (talk) 20:09, 6 October 2015 (UTC)'''

User:216.151.52.59 is making questionable deletions to The Underwater Menace‎ which are supplied with explanations, but I have doubts about the explanations. CLCStudent (talk) 18:04, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Really? Sheesh. Wikipedia isn't a dumping ground for procedural discussion of every nuance of every issue.
 * For everyone else's benefit, here's the issue. There's a Doctor Who serial, which is coming out on DVD. A subsection of the serial's page discusses commercial releases of the serial. The DVD was announced a couple of years ago. It now has a solid release date set.
 * Previously there had been a long, meticulous paragraph detailing the ins and outs of the serial's progress to DVD between 2014 and 2015. It was announced, it was delayed, it might have been canceled, except no -- it was still scheduled! Then it was cancelled! Then it was on the schedules again!
 * I replaced all of this with a statement that it had been intended for release in 2014, then after a series of delays and uncertainty, the BBC announced this release date. Because... really, why detail all of this? The page isn't about the drama of DVD scheduling. When the DVD is actually out in a couple of weeks, none of this information will be of consequence or relevance to the page's major topic of the serial itself -- as indeed none of it is now.
 * It's worthwhile to state that a DVD is set for release. It's maybe sort of interesting to state that after being prepared the DVD sat in limbo for a while before release. But detailing every step of the way? Somebody explain how this is constructive. 216.151.52.59 (talk) 18:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Clearly someone thinks it is, since they would argue to keep it. But that's what we call a content dispute, and that discussion belongs on the article's talk page. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 20:03, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with Ultraexactzz: this is a content dispute between two good-faith people, neither of whom are seemingly doing something wrong. Nyttend (talk) 20:09, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Copy / paste moves
It was nothing unfixable (and, indeed, I fixed it) but I would like to notify you that Mr Hall of England moved five articles by copying and pasting their content to new titles. I find it rather bizarre that it happened more than one month ago but went unnoticed until now.

For the record, the articles were:
 * Grand Duke Vyacheslav Constantinovich of Russia
 * Prince Igor Constantinovich of Russia
 * Prince Constantine Constantinovich of Russia
 * Prince Gabriel Constantinovich of Russia
 * Kirill Vladimirovich, Grand Duke of Russia

--The Traditionalist (talk) 19:43, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

2012 Jacksonville Jaguars season
Can someone please respond at Talk:2012 Jacksonville Jaguars season. Thank you! --74.130.133.1 (talk) 02:15, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

WP:UAA is off the charts
I've tried to clean up a bit, but I need to get some sleep. WP:UAA has a ridiculous backlog. Any admins who want to pitch in to help out a bit would be most appreciated. It's something over 50 or so at last check. --Jayron32 (talk) 04:34, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

2015 Arbitration Committee Electoral Commission
The RfC to appoint 3 individuals to the 2015 Arbitration Committee Electoral Commission has begun. Nominations will be accepted through 23:59 (UTC), 16 October 2015. Following the nomination period, comments will be welcomed to discuss the suitability of the candidates.

Best regards, <b style="color:#151B54">Mike V</b> • <b style="color:#C16C16">Talk</b> 01:51, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I hope will offer. Guy (Help!) 12:32, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm flattered, Guy, but typically the individuals are those who have been on the elections committee in the past. But thanks for the alert, I want to keep up on the election. Liz Read! Talk! 12:40, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It's not a job for life, maybe they will want to let someone else have a go :-) Guy (Help!) 14:23, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Appeal
Hi, according to a January 2015 for creating unsourced BLPs. Realizing my mistake, and reading the rules clearly, now I am appealing against my ban. 10:32, 9 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Royroydeb (talk • contribs) 10:32, 9 October 2015 (UTC)‎
 * back in July, you appealed this ban, and you failed to respond to anyone's questions, I'd like for you to answer the question  posted in that first appeal: What do you plan to do to address the concerns raised at the topic ban discussion?  Kosh Vorlon   10:49, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Reposting from my talk page to keep the conversation in one spot  Hi, you wrote "What do you plan to do to address the concerns raised at the topic ban discussion?" in the appeal section where I posted. Sorry, I cannot understand the meaning of the question. Can you please tell me clearly. RRD13 দেবজ্যোতি (talk) 10:53, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You were banned for creating non-notable and/or poorly sourced BLP's. How do you plan to not have that happpen again ?  Kosh Vorlon   11:16, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi, as I have said that I did not act wisely then. Now I have gone through all the rules and regulations and I will not create BLPs of non notable persons as I have created before. I will also make sure to properly reference the informations in the created articles. RRD13 দেবজ্যোতি (talk) 12:04, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I cannot find any substantive edits to BLPs other than the addition of career statistics tables for footballers. You need to evidence that you know what you have done wrong, and simply not doing what we've told you to not do is not enough. GiantSnowman 12:14, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I have promoted Harry Kane, Josh Walker, Cillian Sheridan to GA; Serdar Tasci is under review. Also Cristian Bustos has been promoted to DYK. 12:34, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Quick look at Harry Kane - you have added the Daily Mail (not a RS) and simply added a bunch of direct quotes. Your conduct at Roberto Firmino, where you just added heaps of sports commentary, is also a bit too recent for my liking. You seem to not know what an encyclopedia is. GiantSnowman 12:39, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Fixing mistakes in the CSD log
I just deleted Javier Pérez-Ramírez as a copyvio of his university biography, but selected "G11" instead of "G12" by mistake in the drop down list. I'm sure anyone challenging the deletion can spot what I meant to do, but is there any way of correcting the log entry other than restoring the article and deleting it again (which seems a little pointless)? <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  10:42, 9 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I believe that oversighters may have the technical ability to suppress/hide these types of log entries, but it would take someone with very low-level (high-privilege) access to the database to actually modify a log entry.
 * That said, unless you make a mess with an automated process and need to do a very large number of these, restoring and re-deleting with a correct log entry (perhaps with the added explanation of correcting previous deletion rationale) is always going to require less time and effort than trying to modify the original log entry. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 11:31, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Personally, I would, in stead of restoring the page, simply create it with one character (since you can't create it empty); this leaves the log cleaner. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 11:59, 9 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I've rewritten the article from scratch as a short stub and left a note on the original creator's talk page. Crisis averted :-) <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  12:10, 9 October 2015 (UTC)