Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive357

Distasteful? (in re death of Kissinger)
This isn't a concern about the editor whose page this is (although I'll notify her anyways), but I'm a bit concerned about how some other editors are conducting themselves at User talk:Asticky. Yes, we get it, she made the "is"→"was" edit on Kissinger. Yes, we get it, lots of people hated Kissinger. I'm all for fun in userspace, and all for people expressing political views in appropriate spaces, but this seems to rather push the limits of taste, keeping in mind that we have a reputation to uphold and our coverage of high-profile deaths sometimes draws media coverage, to the extent that Death and Wikipedia is (asserted to be) a notable topic. Per WP:UPNOT (you may not include in your user space material that is likely to bring the project into disrepute), I have half a mind to blank the page and leave a note directing well-wishers(?) back to their social network of choice. But given the presence of several usernames I recognize on that page, I thought I would ask for second/etc. opinions first. -- Tamzin  &#91;cetacean needed&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 18:29, 30 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I saw Asticky's comment on the Depths of Wikipedia Twitter account last night. I'm reminded of one of my all-time favorite Onion articles, "Area Man Honored To Be One Who Added Death Date To Heath Ledger's Wikipedia Page". I agree that it's in poor taste, and overinflates our self-importance of editors. Many of the WP:ITN/C comments were also inappropriate (like the nominator adding the unneeded comment "Been waiting for this day"). I consider celebrating anyone's death disreputable and would not oppose some actions taken to tamp this impulse down. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:34, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * And holy shit I just looked at her user talk page. I am really trying to remain civil right now, but, seriously, what the fuck? Everybody offering praise or a barnstar for changing "is" to "was" deserves a WP:TROUT at the least. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:37, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Kissinger probably earned the hatred being expressed in the celebrations of his death, but Wikipedia is not the place for it. WP:BDP clearly applies here, and the page is clearly being used as an attack page, and should be blanked. I would make the warning that anyone who subsequently leaves a similar gravedancing comment will be blocked from editing. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:43, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * But also I wouldn't trout anyone who's already commented per WP:STREISAND. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:45, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Aye. See also Margaret Thatcher, though I'm unaware that Kissinger's death provoked spontaneous street parties. It was probably lucky that I was offline for most of that day! Black Kite (talk) 18:47, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * On that note I've blanked and sysop-protected the page to stop the flood of inappropriate comments. Anyone is free to modify if they have a better idea. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:50, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * That's fine with me (given that it only runs 48h), although if Asticky objects to not having access to her talkpage in this time, we could bump down to ECP or semi and add a note to the page for those editors who ought to know better but don't. -- Tamzin  &#91;cetacean needed&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 18:53, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * No it’s all good. I really didn’t mean to invite the incivility here, I figured barely anyone would see my user page until the depthsofwiki post blew up. Asticky (talk) 19:27, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I’m also sorry if my conduct on Twitter has invited some of this, if you want me to take any measures to mitigate that please let me know. Asticky (talk) 19:33, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not your conduct, it was the gravedancing on the talk page overall by other users. If it's done on social media that's one thing, but not here. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:35, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Asticky: Usually when there's a rush of people to a page due to off-wiki attention, it blows over fast enough. If it doesn't, well, we have a variety of things we can do. So we'll see in ~48 hours if people still care. And yeah, as Rick says, what you do off-wiki is your business, as long as you're not harassing people or canvassing (inviting brigading). But this may serve as a cautionary tale about how when you talk about Wikipedia edits off-wiki, you never know what kind of attention that will draw. -- Tamzin  &#91;cetacean needed&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 19:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Bravo. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:56, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, decent plan. Black Kite (talk) 18:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Good call. Regardless of how you feel, Wikipedia isn't the place for gravedancing. RickinBaltimore (talk) 18:59, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I doubt that Asticky will object since the page was created with the first Kissinger comment, but yes I'm fine with reducing or even removing the protection if we add a warning that Wikipedia is not a platform for celebrating any person's death. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:01, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Per User pages, are you going to notify about your action? It's their userspace, after all, and they may disagree with your action. Ed [talk] [OMT] 19:24, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * They can disagree with it all they want, it's Wikipedia's user page, not theirs. They were notified of this discussion and can comment if they're around, but I don't think anyone here would disagree that urgent action was warranted per the second paragraph of that guideline. But I will find a way to leave a note. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:32, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Ivanvector: She's commented a few levels up. -- Tamzin  &#91;cetacean needed&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 19:33, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * For the record, I was referring to the second paragraph there, not the first ... although I see why my message may have led to other thoughts. Ed [talk] [OMT] 19:38, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Christ, that's stupid. Well, whatever. I guess there is not much we can really do about it. jp×g🗯️ 19:10, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Disappointing that none of those congratulatory comments pointed out that we don't change "is" to "was" without citing a reliable source. Fortunately another editor stepped in a few minutes later to add a source. Since the talk page is fully protected, perhaps an admin could post a gentle reminder to include a source the next time that new editor makes such a change? Schazjmd   (talk)  19:27, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Probably easier to talk to her in this thread, or by pinging from one's own usertalk, since if any of us post on her talk, she won't be able to reply there. (There's no own-usertalk exception for protections like with blocks.) -- Tamzin  &#91;cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 19:35, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Good point. @Asticky, if you ever need to update an article for someone's death again, please be sure you cite your reliable source in the same edit. Thanks. Schazjmd   (talk)  19:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I've replaced the blank notice with a customized notice warning users not to leave any more gravedancing comments, and a note to Asticky that she can modify it or remove it as she sees fit, or where to ask for help. I think enough of us are watching the page now that reducing to semiprotection is good enough, but anyone can modify that if there's more disruption. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Clear devil's advocate who has heard Kissinger's name, knew he was SoS, and left a barnstar, but nothing else: I don't see why the grave-dancing was so bad that this had to be blanked and fully protected (this was reduced while I was writing). Hell, most of the comments weren't even gravedancing, they were just wikilove for being the first to report a somewhat major event (albeit without sources), which is something wikilove-worthy because this encyclopedia is built on people like this who update articles. Of course, any wikilove that is gravedancing should be removed and their posters warned, but the vast majority of the wikilove was not gravedancing, genuinely thanking her in good faith. Personally, when I left a barnstar, I had no idea of the stuff Kissinger did and was genuinely thankful for what she did, and I would do the same for any person who changes "is" to "was" on a major BLP. From my count, only 5 of the over 50 thanks could be reasonably interpreted as gravedancing. These comments didn't need to be removed en masse and this talk page didn't have to be fully protected. At the most, it should be semi-protected (which was done while I was writing this comment) to prevent an influx of gravedancing from people from Twitter (I refuse to call it X) who don't know Wikipedia's rules (there are none, but you know what I mean) from gravedancing. Thanks, Queen   of   Hearts ❤️  (no relation) 20:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * These are fair and thoughtful points. In my mind the context of the comments is important: the influx didn't really start until there was off-wiki coverage of the edit, and that coverage was pretty clearly celebrating Kissinger's death first, and the edit that recorded it second. There were a number of accounts in this mix which clearly were created just for this "party" as one of them put it, and it's inappropriate for Wikipedia to be used for any celebration of someone's death, whether or not those comments are given in the frame of celebrating the edit. I don't have a better word for it than Tamzin's: distasteful. Maybe blanking was not the right tool for the job, but it seemed urgent at the time. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:48, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Beyond the specific nature of this situation, I do think it gets to an ongoing problem of people wanting to be "first" to edit something when there's WP:BREAKING news. I get it, it's a human pursuit of sorts. But, it is out of line with the purpose of Wikipedia. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:40, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I was about to say much the same thing. We've had many AFD discussions of hastily written biographies of people only covered for 1 news cycle.  Uncle G (talk) 21:51, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I disagree. It may be inappropriate in particular cases, but it's not fundamentally opposed to the basic purpose of building an encyclopedia. There's a difference between the arguably suboptimal (e.g., starting a new page because of a news event instead of inserting a brief comment in an existing article) and material that is fundamentally inimical to a reference work. Don't want people adding things on the spur of the moment? Then don't ask volunteers to write your encyclopedia. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 22:08, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Seems in the spirit of WP:DENY even if nothing was outright vandalism. Sennalen (talk) 21:32, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * It's an interesting illumination of priorities. Twitter people pile on to a verb change.  I'm currently wondering why our Nobel Peace Prize article has two different SEK amounts, and no third-party source for either, when it seems that there's a rather complex tale to tell, involving exchange rates.  Alas, this is paywalled for me.  Uncle G (talk) 21:51, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The current wording of the alert (Please do not leave messages here about the death of Henry Kissinger) is way overbroad. At face value, it means that I could be blocked for saying, e.g., "In the future, make sure to cite reliable sources when writing about the death of Henry Kissinger." That's not grave-dancing, but it's "about" Kissinger's demise just as much as it is "about" Wikipedia policy. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 22:29, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is a rather obnoxious pointed way to phrase it rather than just speaking generally about people who just died. The immediate threat of blocking also seems wildly out of touch with the usual gentle warning system for those engaging in antics such as page vandalism. They have the courtesy of making three violations in a row before any moderation action is taken. Apparently Henry Kissinger is some sort of special case, for some inexplicable reason? Pericles of Athens  Talk 18:00, 1 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Vice article, Daily Dot article, who's going to turn Changing of "is" to "was" in Henry Kissinger's Wikipedia article blue? <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 00:11, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Saw a random reel on instagram from Vice about this whole ordeal. <b style="color: #E2062C ;"> Iamreallygoodatcheckers</b><b style="color: #000000;"> talk</b> 01:51, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Surely this topic should just be a section in Verb tense controversies on Wikipedia. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 05:41, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I do hope we're not setting a precedent here that we're going to police user talk pages based on some people's interpretation of what "brings the project into disrepute." We have always given considerable latitude to the sorts of conversations people are allowed to have on their user talk pages, and I've certainly never seen this level of fun police kiboshing barnstars and other light-hearted messages. I hope this doesn't become a trend. – bradv  02:07, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This whole thread is fairly absurd, honestly. There was absolutely nothing urgent here that required an emergency courtesy blanking of someone's talk page. What exactly did doing that accomplish? What would've happened had we not? Parabolist (talk) 02:26, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Good questions. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 05:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * A noted, serial war criminal may not have been adequately white knighted for and come into marginal disrepute, I guess.  TheTechnician27  (Talk page)  05:42, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Wow, such a brave comment -- epic updoots for you, magnificent gentlesir, I'll see your cakeday and raise you a karma train! 🙄 Come on now, seriously though: there's no other circumstance in which a parade of seventy people throwing up random goofy shitposts on a person's talk page would pass without comment. Henry Kissinger being a douche has got basically nothing to do with it. I don't necessarily think that all of the stuff there has to be removed, but there's a point at which we have to consider the actual benefits obtained from uncritically indulging an epic le reddit social media mockery carnival, which seem pretty slim. Honestly, the way I see it, there are two possibilities:
 * Somebody sees that giant walltext, on the user talk page, of people vigorously (and, it cannot be stressed enough: redditously) high-fiving each other about how epic it was that some old guy died, and concludes that Wikipedians are a bunch of idiot 12-year-olds.
 * Somebody sees this giant walltext, on WP:AN, of people vigorously (although, at the very least, not redditously) arguing about whether to remove a bunch of smartass talk page comments, and concludes that Wikipedians are a bunch of idiot 12-year-olds.
 * I think the solution is that we all go touch grass. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 07:26, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "Henry Kissinger was a douche" reflects either such a shocking lack of understanding or such a deliberate oversimplification that it's to the point of nonsense. Also, as a counterpoint to some alleged reputational damage this will cause: the prevailing attitude I've heard off-site is that Wikipedia is governed by power-tripping "jannies" (often called "moderators" by people who don't know the terminology) who go largely unchecked in stamping out any contributions they personally don't like, and thus it's not even worth trying to get involved here. Obviously I don't believe that or I wouldn't be here, but this thread would strongly reinforce that belief as a perfect, high-profile example. TheTechnician27  (Talk page)  08:10, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The purpose of the administrators' noticeboard is not to accurately reckon out moral culpability for war crimes, nor to host public competitions for who can give the most morally righteous diatribe against the people who carry them out. I can assure you I've given truly brutal vituperations on any variety of political subjects, including this one, in places where it was appropriate and useful for me to do so. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 09:51, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * To be fair, not much can be done about the public perception that Wikipedians are a bunch of idiot 12-year-olds governed by power-tripping "jannies" who go largely unchecked. Levivich (talk) 01:27, 2 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Proud to do it for free. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 04:26, 3 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Well, there is the matter of our reputation, I suppose. My off-wiki social circles are 100% "rot in Hell, war criminal" right now, and yet I can step away from that echo chamber and see that it is not a good look for us to be hosting a gravedancing party about a very divisive figure, especially when we're already getting media coverage over this exact edit. This is why, pace Bradv, removing userspace content that has been policy since 2007. --  Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 06:31, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I did not want to, but I just raised protection on the talk page back to full. A bunch more reveling in this situation, including by ECP editors, led me to that. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:15, 1 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Again, why are you micromanaging a user's talk page over edits congratulating them on appearing in news articles? What's even going on here? Parabolist (talk) 04:45, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * i see we have our priorities straight. ltb d l (talk) 04:53, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not exactly sure why you're removing everything. Like if some people are gravedancing then remove the rulebreaking posts, but i mean, it is a significant edit and at the very least I think the press Barnstar is warranted. Agree with Parabolist here. Asticky (talk) 04:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Along with everyone else here, I think it's unjust to state that awarding The Press Barnstar to someone who's been cited in at least two new services (at the time of writing) off Wikipedia is somehow "against policy" solely because of the content of said edit (again, the primary criterion was met). As I said in my initial message in your talk page, I was merely congratulating Asticky for being cited in the news with the appropriate barnstar. If you interpret this as gravedancing then I would like to question your own neutrality of the situation. Sauriazoicillus (talk) 05:20, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this is not "reveling" or "gravedancing". Fully protecting a User talk page for two weeks over something that will blow over once it scrolls off people's Twitter feeds is an excessive measure. In this case, it's getting in the way of helping someone who hasn't made many edits become a more active participant in the community. What gives? XOR&#39;easter (talk) 05:21, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Two weeks is a mistake. I thought it was still two days. Ivanvector is right about the Streisand Effect. I lowered it down to auto again. – Muboshgu (talk) 05:24, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the whole idea of protecting a user talk page for any of the reasons listed is absurd. I'm very tempted to reinstate the deleted comments as well, as it appears to be the clear consensus of this discussion that deleting them was inappropriate.
 * There's very little, in my view, that's actually inappropriate to post on a user's talk page, especially if the user themself is okay with it. I don't care that people are gravedancing about Kissinger on 's talk page. It's 's talk page and, barring something obviously illegal, it's ultimately up to her what goes there. Loki (talk) 05:34, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I would like them reinstated if the admins deem that okay. I’m not really sure how much of a dog i have in this fight as a rando with like 20 edits who just happened to get lucky, but I think the decision to blanket wipe everything and lock the page seems excessive. Asticky (talk) 06:12, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That is objectively incorrect, although maybe not as incorrect as the idea that there's . But how about we say this: Asticky can restore any messages that she feels worth restoring and aren't clearly distasteful, and we play it by ear from there. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 06:24, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe just restore the entire page, instead of putting the onus on Asticky to decide what you mean by "clearly distasteful"? What's the line here? If she restores something you think "brings Wikipedia into disrepute", what happens then? Generally we've allowed an extremely large latitude to what's allowable on user talk pages, so it's extremely weird that we're suddenly so concerned about this. Parabolist (talk) 06:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That's what I was referring to by . There can be a dialogue. I don't think anyone's looking to block a new user who's wound up suddenly in the spotlight and has acted completely reasonably here. And no, we don't allow . We allow a lot, but it has its limits, and misusing Wikipedia as a webhost for politically sensitive material that may bring the project into disrepute is one of those limits. This isn't special treatment for Kissinger. I've removed grave-dancing in the past against everyone from Shinzo Abe to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 06:38, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I have no delusions that this is special treatment for Kissinger, I'm familiar enough with the you and the other admins enough to give you that respect, I simply think this is the lot of you getting out over your skis. This required admin intervention? Politically sensitive libel like and ? This is what's bringing Wikipedia into disrepute? My point is that if you think the content was removed inappropriately, which if you think it should be restored then it was, then the admins should have the courtesy and self reflection to do the damn deed themselves, rather than ask the new user they're embarrassing with a thread an AN to clean up after them. Parabolist (talk) 06:50, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * There's only so much I can say or do when most/all other admins from the initial discussion are asleep. I've made my opinion clear. Asticky has shown reasonable judgment so far and I don't see a reason that would change now, which is why I'd personally be fine letting her pick out certain comments to restore. That's just one admin's opinion. The world will not end if we wait for sunrise and get some more perspectives. (UK admins just waking up around now...) -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 06:59, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You've linked the completely wrong guideline. The one that governs a user _talk_ page is WP:OWNTALK, which is substantially more permissive. Especially considering that congratulations over an edit pretty clearly are related to Wikipedia.
 * And incidentally, the guideline about editing another user's page is WP:TPO, which strongly discourages removing other people's comments except in a handful of situations which don't apply here. Notably, incivility is specifically not an exception, so on-topic comments that are uncivil _still_ should not be removed. Loki (talk) 15:00, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If you're going to wikilawyer, make sure you're actually right. The user page policy explicitly applies to . -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 17:22, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hmm, you're right. I missed that.
 * That being said, the vast majority of the messages removed were "notes related to your Wikipedia work and activities" which is explicitly allowed, and the removals were still not allowed under WP:TPO even of the gravedancing comments.
 * While this call is admittedly subjective, nothing I've seen so far has been "extremely offensive" to the degree it could be removed immediately under the user page policy. If the removal is more likely to bring Wikipedia into disrepute than the inclusion (which is objectively what's happened) then it's clearly not covered by the policy. And in general I object both to editing comments and to editing another person's page against their wishes. The gun was clearly jumped here and none of the removals should have happened when they did. Loki (talk) 18:20, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and boldly restored all of these previous barnstars (minus the ones that could actually be seen as gravedancing), since Asticky themselves wants them restored and we shouldn't be policing what should and should not go on a user's talk page against their own wishes. SkyWarrior 14:03, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Again, user talk pages are not the property of users, they are community pages just like any other and subject to policies and guidelines just like any other; a user's desire to have or not have particular content on their talk page is a factor in what can be on the page, but not the whole story. I saw your edit, and I've just restored the notice at the top of the page, with slightly modified wording which I hope satisfies some of the concerns expressed here about its content. since the community seems to be endorsing these messages and you'll probably be seeing more of them, I'd suggest you set up automatic archiving (instructions here, or feel free to ask for help) or else manually archive the messages to a subpage once in a while, otherwise your page might get too long and hamper communicating with you about other Wikipedia business. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:40, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've reverted @SkyWarrior's bold restoration per WP:BRD. Most of the restored content is still that which I think most readers would find distasteful. The implication of dozens of people gathering around to congratulate someone for changing "is" to "was" is obvious unless you deliberately ignore it. I do not see any consensus in this thread to restore the content that was initially assessed to violate WP:UPNOT, neither by the numbers nor on the strength of the arguments. (A number of arguments are just the same misunderstandings of how Wikipedia policies apply to user talk pages.) There is no rush. We can wait for a clear consensus one way or the other, and in the mean time we should err on the side of caution. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 17:39, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If you're going to wikilawyer, make sure you're actually right. BRD is an essay, neither a policy or guideline, and is clearly about article content. UPNOT allows editors to immediately remove content without consensus when it is, which barnstars that simply say Congratulations! clearly are. Was this removal an admin action, or was it part of the extremely offensive clause allowed to all users? Why are you doing this? What is the caution for? What harm are you preventing? This is quickly veering into Streisand territory, good god. Parabolist (talk) 17:48, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I have repeatedly said which part of UPNOT applies: (emphasis original). And content wasn't immediately removed. It was removed after discussion. Why am I doing this? Because, despite spending a large portion of my time in a far-left extremely-online bubble, I also know a lot of people from outside of that bubble, and I care about Wikipedia's reputation among them. This is an own goal. --  Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 17:58, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * To be clear, that clause and the clause about removal of "extremely offensive" material are separate clauses. You cannot unilaterally remove any material that is "likely to bring the project into disrepute". Please stop edit-warring. Loki (talk) 18:23, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The implication of dozens of people gathering around to congratulate someone for changing "is" to "was" is obvious unless you deliberately ignore it. – Am I interpreting this correctly: you think the several editors here who do not object to the content in question are acting in bad faith? Furthermore, assuming for the sake of argument that BRD is applicable here, it was the reinstatement that was the revert here. What you're applying here is BRRD. <b style="font-family:Monospace">-- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH)</b> 17:51, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * There was rough consensus to remove, so that's D. SkyWarrior called their action a bold one, so that's the start of a new BRD cycle. We're now back at D. And I have no idea where you're getting that implication of bad faith, Maddy. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 17:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "deliberately ignoring" something would in my mind always be bad-faith behaviour. <b style="font-family:Monospace">-- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH)</b> 17:56, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Bad-faith? No. Naïve, a bit recklessly so. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 18:02, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Have you considered backing off? Edit warring over a user talk page seems absolutely ridiculous to me. You've boldly/super boldly reverted and been reverted. Is it worth the hassle? This isn't indexed - it's not a BLP violation. There's no blatant celebration. You claim it's not an admin action yet repeatedly revert bold edits, not to mention the hypocrisy of receiving barnstars, while deleting others is...petty, at best. <span style="color: white; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(darkred, red, Firebrick, DarkGreen, Green, ForestGreen)">GRINCHIDICAE🎄 18:23, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure, I don't have a lot of time right now but I'll look into that when I have a minute.
 * In the meantime, it seems like they were removed again, and I guess if this adds to the calculus, I don't really want people posting like "RIP Bozo" and stuff on my talk page, especially in light of all this, so that kind of risque/objectionable stuff that's beyond like "congrats on getting there first" will be removed by me. Asticky (talk) 18:22, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Asticky: I believe you now have the highest ratio of barnstars to edits of anyone in the history of the project. I'm confident that someone with that kind of record can manage their own talk page, just like the rest of us do. – bradv  18:30, 1 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Praxidicae and Parabolist are now edit-warring to restore the content despite the initial consensus to remove and what Parabolist acknowledges is "mixed" consensus since. I don't know why it's so urgent to anyone that these comments be restored without a full discussion, but that's where we are. We've reached the point in a dispute where otherwise reasonable editors reach into a grab-bag of policies and pick one at random to justify their edit, which is usually my sign to step away. I'll just say this, with whatever credibility my status as a Noted Controversial Anarchist Wikipedian gets me: I've always tried to be an editor who's a leftist, not a leftist editor . It saddens me that some others are seemingly unable to draw that distinction for themselves. The best of luck to whoever tries to sort this mess. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 18:26, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I really question your judgement if you think my single edit, save for a response to Parabolist to be edit warring. <span style="color: white; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(darkred, red, Firebrick, DarkGreen, Green, ForestGreen)">GRINCHIDICAE🎄 18:28, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * And even if we are, and we aren't, her edit doesn't also count? Because she quoted an essay about editing article space? Ridiculous. Removing talk page comments in userspace is not to be done lightly, and we don't need consensus to undo something done out of process. Parabolist (talk) 18:31, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, per WP:TPO: Cautiously editing or removing another editor's comments is sometimes allowed, but normally you should stop if there is any objection. (Emphasis mine.) The standard for restoring comments on a talk page is not "consensus" it is "any objection", because the assumption is that you should usually not edit comments without a good reason. Loki (talk) 18:35, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think this is grandstanding and I think it's clear that you are the one who's edit warring. I see a clear consensus here to restore the comments that are not gravedancing, and most importantly also wants the material restored. As far as I can tell you're the only one who's objected to the restoration of those comments, actually: the other admins involved in the original removal either haven't commented or are explicitly neutral. Loki (talk) 18:31, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * What the hell? I'm not super familiar with Kissinger, but 30+ congratulations messages for making an unsourced edit saying he died? BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:54, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * There is no policy-based reason to forcibly remove material from Asticky's talk page. There is no policy-based purpose in forcibly removing material from Asticky's talk page. There is no policy-based encyclopedic benefit in forcibly removing material from Asticky's talk page. And there is no policy-based consensus to forcibly remove material from Asticky's talk page.  ——Serial  19:06, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This. -- ferret (talk) 19:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * No, but there is a clear policy against edit warring, the aptly-named edit warring policy., , AND : consider yourselves warned, I will block you if you keep this up. None of this is urgent. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:09, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, can you please explain how I edit warred with a single edit to a talk page? I'll gladly take a block, even idenfinitely if something has somehow changed in my absence. This admonishment is absolutely ridiculous though. <span style="color: white; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(darkred, red, Firebrick, DarkGreen, Green, ForestGreen)">GRINCHIDICAE🎄 20:17, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * PS: This is why editor retention sucks. You threaten people without looking at any type of history, apparently. Go ahead and indef me, @Ivanvector 😘 <span style="color: white; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(darkred, red, Firebrick, DarkGreen, Green, ForestGreen)">GRINCHIDICAE🎄 20:21, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, @Serial Number 54129 you're too guilty to comment here. Judge has ruled. Bring in the lobsters. 🦞 This applies to you too,, you heathen. <span style="color: white; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(darkred, red, Firebrick, DarkGreen, Green, ForestGreen)">GRINCHIDICAE🎄 20:51, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Look, this is all getting blown way out of proportion. I get that it's a sensitive issue and emotions are thick here, but please, everyone, take a step back before you say something (or something more) that you regret. I am the one who originally removed the comments, if you have an issue with that then direct your ire at me, not anyone else who has commented here.
 * Regarding the original removal, there were comments among those I mass-removed which were unacceptable, and in what seemed to be an urgent situation it seemed better to me to remove them all then to selectively review and wait for discussion, as the policy suggests. The removed comments were available in the history, and subsequent to my action there have been many eyes on them and more rational (and some irrational) discussion here about what policy compels to be removed without discussion. While I would not have restored them at the point in the discussion where they were restored, there's also no compelling reason to urgently remove them again, nor is edit warring ever allowed, period. The discussion is trending in the other direction, by my reading, but some other unfortunate soul will have the burden of closing this.
 * I happen to strongly agree with Tamzin and some other administrators here who find this whole course of events to have been in exceedingly poor taste. However, taste is not a policy on Wikipedia, and administrators are not above consensus. None of us gets to remove material just because we don't like it, and we have a whole policy subsection on not removing material just because it might be considered offensive. If there isn't a clear affirmative consensus here that the remaining comments should be removed, then they shouldn't be. Someone can feel free to make that proposal with a policy-backed rationale any time, but it's certainly not improving the situation at all that we all keep sniping at each other about it. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:54, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Accusing people of being emotional after your comments is like some serious A+ Wikipedian shit. Bravo. And writing paragraphs about why everyone else is wrong. Well, mwah. 👌 <span style="color: white; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(darkred, red, Firebrick, DarkGreen, Green, ForestGreen)">GRINCHIDICAE🎄 21:03, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I mostly agree with you here, excepting that I think it's a good idea to spend a little more time in the future to consider if what seems like an urgent situation is really so urgent. Hasty decisions are usually not good ones, and the process of writing an encyclopedia contains very few situations that truly require an urgent reaction. Loki (talk) 21:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * While I agree with Loki above that this was never actually an urgent situation, the fact is that the situation as it stands (the talkpage is nearly fully restored, barring some of the worst comments) is roughly the correct one, so I'm fine with this. Parabolist (talk) 22:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the criticism. All I can say about the perceived urgency is that it's perhaps easy to say that a situation is not urgent when you are not in the middle of it and have the benefit of retrospect. I'm definitely not saying that makes it right, only that that's where I was coming from at the time. Looking back on everything a day or so later, I agree that it probably was not urgent, and this thread here probably made a bigger mess of things than if we had just let the talk page be, but none of us can fix any of that now so let's just try to get it right going forward. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 00:04, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Ivanvector, full disclosure: I certainly INVOLVED when it comes to Praxidicae but I am a bit sad you've ignored the question she's asked about why her engaging in the second step of BRD merits a blocking threat for edit warring. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:46, 2 December 2023 (UTC)


 * We shouldn't be policing harmless comments on user talk pages like this; blatant BLP violations should be removed, however BLP requires neutrality and it seems that perceived negative comments about a deceased person are being treated far more harshly than condolences would be. Editors should be given leeway to react to a death as they see fit, not restricted to mourning only. I would also add that the Vice and Daily Dot articles are silly throwaway pieces that will be quickly forgotten. Doubling down and banning these barnstars is a great way to appear in additional news cycles and be seen as an officially pro-Kissinger community, which may be even more damaging to our reputation than a bunch of thank-yous on some random user talk page. –dlthewave ☎ 23:28, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Now that I'm off of work, I'll comment further on this.
 * Yes, I'm aware that users don't "own" their user talk page, however it is my opinion that we should not remove comments from user's talk pages, unless it's blatant vandalism or BLP violations, which most of the barnstars aren't; especially so if the user in question objects to removal. I also object to the re-addition of the banner at top, though I will not remove it and will leave it to to decide if she wants it or not. I will also concede that maybe my restoration of the barnstars may have been done a bit hastily, but to be fair so was the removal in the first place. (And for the love of god the "Press Barnstar" is not gravedancing, the initial notice was not meant to be "broadly construed" (at least it shouldn't have been), and Asticky's user talk should not have been put back to full protection).
 * Contrary to what believes, I actually do believe 's invocation of WP:BRD was correct, though the edit warring was uncalled for. On a similar note,  why are you threatening to block users in a dispute you're blatantly involved in? You may be right but please leave that to someone uninvolved in this whole mess to do.
 * All in all, I believe everyone, including myself, could have behaved a little better, and I think we should use this as a learning experience. SkyWarrior  01:26, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * regarding the blocking threat - reading that in the thread above left a sour taste in my mouth to say the least. Best, <sup style="letter-spacing:-.1em;color:#737373;font-family:monospace">user: A smart kitten <sub style="color:#b842b8;font-family:monospace">meow  08:12, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * we have a new candidate for the lamest edit war. ltb d l (talk) 03:02, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:TALK is very clear - the situations under which you can remove other people's comments are fairly limited. Generally speaking, simple insults and "disruptive" things are considered borderline, which would certainly not support such sweeping removals once it's clear they're contested: This generally does not extend to messages that are merely uncivil; deletions of simple invective are controversial. Posts that may be considered disruptive in various ways are another borderline case and are usually best left as-is or archived. I'm also deeply unimpressed by the attempt to invoke WP:UPNOT, which clearly does not apply - the example given is "racist ideology"; it is not credible to put these barnstars on the same level as that. And remove-on-sight is restricted to extremely offensive material. It is not meant to be a blank check for anyone to remove anything whose presence they feel might offend someone; the idea that these barnstars could bring the project itself into significant disrepute isn't credible. The only really solid reason to repeatedly remove something once it was clear the removal was disputed in a case like this would be WP:BLPTALK - ie. something actually capable of harming a recently-deceased person's reputation - but to be a violation that would have to be contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced, ie. actually making some sort of claim; and I don't think that that applies to barnstars and the like. You can't blank most of an editor's talk page just because you think it's in poor taste, and if the goal is to avoid harm to Wikipedia's reputation then continuing to push the issue once the removal has been contested is only going to make things worse per the Streisand effect. --Aquillion (talk) 10:34, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Makes me wonder exactly how much reputational damage some of you think WP's going to suffer because we have this stuff on the Main Pag e the Kissinger article some mainspace article? oh a random User talk that now has less than 300 views a day and will probably go to 0 in a week. The reputational damage of all of us looking like constipated micromanaging megalomaniacs drunk on our own power seems a bit larger imo. AryKun (talk) 20:23, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Other user pages
We're also seeing this grave dancing behaviour on the user pages of other editors; for example, on the user page of an editor who vandalised the article. BilledMammal (talk) 05:23, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Random aside
Thanks for mentioning the Death and Wikipedia article in your original post; I just removed a blatant falsehood from it in the English version and all of the article's translations. (Graham87 (talk) 05:58, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

For the interested, the Kissinger-thing has some media-coverage: Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:52, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Awkward. Kissinger was a very divisive figure, seen negatively by large numbers outside the US. And I understand that the "recently dead until 6 months or so later" extension of WP:BLP was quietly changed a couple of years ago, and the discussion on whether to reinstate the former rules is only just getting started. I suspect many admins still operate under the old rules; but anyone looking for the policy will currently see The only exception would be for people who have recently died, in which case the policy can extend based on editorial consensus for an indeterminate period beyond the date of death—six months, one year, two years at the outside.—a requirement to achieve consensus before applying BLP rules to, say, Kissinger. As has just noted, we're getting press for what's happened here. And from where I stand, we've bitten a load of newbies who were not (so far as I've seen) gravedancing about Kissinger's death; they had discovered via social media that Wikipedia has a community of editors, and discovered we have talk pages, and discovered there's a barnstar generator. The term "party" used by some on 's talk page may make some of us wince—particularly in the context of the celebrated edit being to change someone from "is" to "was"—but what we've effectively done here is tell a whole bunch of interested new editors that we have byzantine rules and hate fun. I've half a mind to welcome em all, but it's probably too late. ( And that would use up most of my edits for this month. ) Please. Put a friendly note at the top of the user talk page, or let Asticky write one herself, restore the barnstars, wikilurve, and other effusions, leave it unprotected, and let's all go worry about more important things than whether it's nice to want to be first. Yngvadottir (talk) 10:13, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Definitely tangentially related, but having the Hong Kong 97 music in the background while reading this thread was a very strange experience. Drowssap SMM ( talk ) (contributions) 00:07, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Backlog at SPI
Kindly participate to clear the backlog of Sockpuppet investigations. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 12:36, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've pushed through the majority of the "endorsed for checkuser" cases, which did not really help the backlog. A large proportion of cases are the "open" set, which any administrator with a reasonable handle on the sockpuppetry policy can help out with. You don't have to be a clerk. Of course, if there's anyone (admin or not) who is interested in being trained as an SPI clerk, WT:SPI/C is the application page. We are actively discussing applications on the functionaries' mailing list. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 22:00, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I bet he wished he hadn't asked now. Asks for the SPI backlog to be cleared, 1 December; checkuser blocked two days later. Blimey.  ——Serial  15:54, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Closing the RfC question
I would ask the interested admin to close RfC question in the Christopher Columbus article. Thank you. Talk:Christopher_Columbus Mikola22 (talk) 14:54, 1 December 2023 (UTC)


 * @Mikola22 You can request a formal close at the close request noticeboard. Nemov (talk) 15:16, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * FYI, I closed the RFC last night, mentioning IMHO User:Mikola22's efforts on that article's talk page were pushing the envelope. This morning, they've started another RFC with similar focus. I'm almost ready to file something at ANI. BusterD (talk) 14:52, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

BusterD thanks for closing the RFC. As for the new RFC, it concerns information that was not in question in the old RFC. Previous RFC had a question based on sources(RS) Italian/Genoese, since I can't open RFC with a non-source based question. That RFC cannot give legitimacy to some information from Columbus article (in Italian note) which is possible without any confirmation in the sources(RS). Nor was my intention to legitimize some information(in Italian note) with previous RFC, which may or may not be in accordance with the rules. When in previous RFC I initiated a discussion in that direction because I did not want that my RFC legitimize this information, no one joined discussion. Now this RFC is an official discussion about this information. As an editor, I have to make sure that every piece of information is in accordance with the source. And this is my intention with the first RFC and with the second RFC. Unfortunately, in 40 days, not a single editor explained from where information (from Italian note) came from. The only thing is that one editor said that it was information from Gaius Plinius Secundus (AD 23/24 – AD 79), called Pliny the Elder. I've been researching that information for about twenty days, but I haven't found a single RS that contains that information. Mikola22 (talk) 15:56, 4 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Please keep your discussion about content on the CC talk page. My comment here is about your behavior. BusterD (talk) 15:58, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, I've explained my position and if I broke some rules you don't have to wait for anything. File something at ANI and I will answer there in a similar context. If the initiation of RFC is for ANI, then I can't do anything against it. Mikola22 (talk) 16:27, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Functionary candidates: December 2023 community consultation open
The Arbitration Committee has received applications for functionary permissions from several editors, consistent with its previous announcement that applications for CheckUser and/or Oversight permissions will be accepted at any point in the year. The following editors have applied for the CheckUser permission and have subsequently been reviewed and vetted by the functionary team, and the community is invited to comment on the associated consultation pages:
 * (consultation)
 * (consultation)

The community consultations will remain open through 11 December 2023.

For the Arbitration Committee, KevinL ( aka L235 · t · c) 04:15, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Discuss this at: 

Arbitration motion regarding Ireland article names - required location of move discussions rescinded
The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

For the Arbitration Committee, firefly  ( t · c ) 17:59, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Discuss this at: 

Village pump (proposals)
The OP would read:
 * Hi, while WP:ECR has recently been amended to specifically restrict interactions of non-ECP users on protected talk pages, pages such as WP:GS/RUSUKR have not been amended to reflect this change. Is there a process for these pages to be updated? Cinderella157 (talk) 05:43, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Please comment at VP. Cinderella157 (talk) 05:47, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Why I am blocked for Vandalism
Please administrators, why you blocked my account named Wilhelm the bad 2001:D08:229B:3F9E:90D7:A090:C79B:52D6 (talk) 09:47, 3 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Your account is blocked as a sockpuppet. Log in to your account to request unblocking, do not further evade your block. 331dot (talk) 10:00, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Appealing a temporary block on a page, as well as requesting more severe action against User:QuestFour
Following my report against User:QuestFour for edit warring on, QuestFour and I have been blocked by an administrator from editing the page. (Administrators noticeboard/Edit warring). I find this block to be unfair for me, as QuestFour continuously rejected the rationales we have listed on why the US/international single cover is more appropriate, instead of the UK single cover that QuestFour uploaded.

There is significant evidence that QuestFour has a history of inciting edit wars (User talk:QuestFour), including regarding album/single covers. Additionally, there is now a consensus on the article talk page that now supports my initial proposal to use the US/international single cover, which was distrupted by the edit war that QuestFour incited. Hence, I request that my temporary block be reassessed, as well as to impose a more serious block against QuestFour.

Theknine2 (talk) 10:14, 3 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The blocks, which are after all only on a single image page, do not seem unreasonable as neither party appeared to wish to stop their slow-moving edit war. As an aside, what a ridiculous thing to edit-war over, though - does anyone really care which of two very similar images which perform the same task are used in the infobox? Black Kite (talk) 11:36, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Touché. Makes it even more frustrating for me, wasting time in talk page discussions with QuestFour, and I assume the past users who have been in disputes with this user would feel the same too. Theknine2 (talk) 12:27, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * So why did you then? 17:23, 3 December 2023 (UTC) Nil Einne (talk) 17:23, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Just one point, Theknine2, which you sound like you might have misunderstood. Who is right and who is wrong in an edit war is *not* decided by who the consensus eventually agrees with. If two of you edit war (no matter who started it), you are *both* equally wrong. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:58, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If consensus has been reached then surely one of the others who agrees with you can change the image file? After that there will be no reason to edit it, so it doesn't matter that you are blocked from it. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:06, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * They already have. Black Kite (talk) 13:08, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Fair point, I'll just let the block expire by itself then. Thanks. Theknine2 (talk) 13:52, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I have closed the case at DRN as pending in a content forum (here). If this is a content dispute, the editors can resolve it at 3O or by RFC.  Robert McClenon (talk) 17:38, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * As Black Kite says, the images of Ms. Carey are not different enough to have been worth edit-warring about. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:38, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Serious question. Why is QuestFour still on the site? His talk page shows he's been being disruptive and edit warring since he joined Wikipedia. The term "edit war" is mentioned on his talk page 96 times. Qwexcxewq (talk) 03:01, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think raw counts like that can easily be misleading. QuestFour seems to have made just under 9000 edits since the beginning of 2021 which is a decent chunk. In that time there seems to have been 4 separate notices about edit warring including this one which while arguably still too high, is way less than 96 would suggest. Looking at the other comments from 2021 onwards, there are a few more which could related to problematic behaviour but frankly not that many, most of the stuff seems to be about orphan non free images. Further there are 122 matches for revert in their most recent 3000 edits, 292 in their second most recent 3000 and 483 in their third most recent 3000. Note that this will include stuff like reverted tags i.e. cases where they were reverted and potentially some edits may be counted twice or more. But it will exclude any reverts that missed any automatic tagging or edit summaries and where they didn't use revert in the edit summary.  If all these reverts were edit warring, it would be way too many but this is unlikely and it's difficult to know what percentage without further analysis e.g. random sampling. E.g. a RC patroler would likely have a edit history full of reverts without problem and while I'm fairly sure QuestFour isn't one it does show why raw counts aren't that useful on their own.  Note it may be that QuestFour was more problematic in the past but we don't punish editors for a troubled past. Nor for not archiving their talk page.  Nil Einne (talk) 07:43, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * P.S. A quick look at the specific edits suggests to me most of their most recent edits seem to be gnomish ones to articles on Japanese people. While I'm a bit surprised some of these edits are necessary especially the removal of unused fields from infoboxes since it seems to me a task better suited to an actual bot. Especially since these edits aren't made as part of wider edits. But they don't seem to fall into the clear disruptive category. And it doesn't look like anyone has talked to them about these changes. Also the main recent concern about edit warring or disruption seems to have been them replacing album artworks with ones felt less suited either without ever offering an explanation or like here where they did but people didn't agree with it.  So IMO, if some sort of action were warranted it would make more sense for this to be something like a topic ban on replacing album artworks. If it's felt some of their gnomish edits aren't productive they should be spoken to about this first.  I will say beyond the album artwork issue, several people have spoken to them about edit summaries and their use of summaries is arguably still low which may not be a good sign. Still they should be given the chance if there is some problem.  Nil Einne (talk) 08:14, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Withdrawal of my deletion request
Wondering if a administrator could help with the withdrawal of my deletion request here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2023_December_5#Untitled_Grand_Theft_Auto_game per WITHDRAWN its allowed if all the votes or opinions were keep and i think it qualifies as i dont see anyone support the deletion of it  Is la  🏳️‍⚧ 00:48, 6 December 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅ – bradv  00:54, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Topic ban appeal
Hi. I was topic banned from deletion related discussions in April of last year. While I have no urge to get back into doing or participating in deletion requests at this time I was still wondering if the topic ban could be lifted since a year has passed and my editing has been unproblematic since then. Although admittedly I haven't been editing that much to begin with, but I'm hopping that will change once the topic is ban lifted. As I have haven't been super motivated to participating in the project with the restrictions.

As to the behavior that originally got me topic banned, I'm not going to relitigate the ANU complaint since a lot of it was extremely spurious and I don't plan on editing in the area much to begin with. Nor do I remember many of the specifics at this point anyway. But if anyone has anything that they think I should have done differently or should do differently in the future then I'm more then willing to hear them out. Mostly I'd just like to have the topic ban lifted since my behavior hasn't been an issue in the past year though. Thanks. Adamant1 (talk) 05:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Convenience link to the topic ban discussion.—<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b> T/C 09:47, 30 November 2023 (UTC)


 * In Articles for deletion/Combermere School, what should you have done differently? Please tell us what you've learned and how your behaviour will be different going forward.—<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b> T/C 07:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I probably should have not responded to SeoR or Jacona as many times as I did since it was clear the conversations with them were going nowhere. I was also thinking about having the deletion request be procedurally closed, but then I changed my mind after the ANU complaint. I should have done it anyway though. Although It's not really something that I ever had an issue with doing before, but it probably would have at least been a good faith gesture in that case if nothing else. As far as what I'll do differently going forward, I just won't repeatedly respond to people who clearly aren't listening or where the conversation otherwise isn't productive. It's always been hard for me to know the line is when it comes to what is bludgeoning or arguing versus just vigorously debating a topic though. But that's definitely something I plan to work on and improve. Plus just not taking things so personal to begin with so I don't have to defend myself or my edits in the first place. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, that's reassuring. And now moving away from your behaviour to think about policy and sources -- with the benefit of hindsight, do you feel that SeoR and/or Jacona might have had a point, at all?  Or are you still of the view that, considering the sources and the policy, it would be right to delete the article?—<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b> T/C 08:53, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * With SeoR specifically I thought at the time and still think we were reading different books, which is why I said it was weird that their book sounded different then the one on Google Books and asked them for a page number I could read. It also never made sense to me that they ordered the book from their local library when it was free on Google. So I don't think they had a point, or maybe they did, but it was just one that had nothing to do with the book I was talking about. I could have made it clearer that I thought they had the wrong book though. With Jacona, I should have just taken them at their word that the sources were in-depth since I couldn't access the full versions and it didn't matter anyway. I was being more skeptical about then I probably would have been otherwise though because of the whole thing with SeoR. As to if it would be right to delete the article, that really depends. Based on their opinions no and I guess that's really all that matters. I can't really give a fair analysis either way though since I never read the sources. --Adamant1 (talk) 09:17, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * If you go back and read the ANI thread, it rapidly becomes clear that you were not discussing a different book to the one everyone else was talking about. Looking at the book again with fresh eyes (for the avoidance of doubt, it is Sandiford & Newton, Combermere School and the Barbadian Society 1995, available on Google Books here and archive.org here), do you still think that your analysis that In fact 99% of it is about "Barbadian Society" and less then 1% directly relates to the school is correct? Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:30, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm a little bit hazy on the details at this point, but the book you linked to doesn't look like the one I read or was referring to at the time. Nor was it even brought up in the DR until the second to last comment, which I think was after the ANU complaint got opened. So either there was a different book about Combermere School school by the same publisher or I was reading something different and thought it was by them. Neither SeoR or I ever brought up Combermere School and the Barbadian Society to begin with and that isn't the book I was talking about regardless though. At least not from what I remember. Although looking at the book now it does seem to be about the school. Although what I read and was discussing at the time wasn't. --Adamant1 (talk) 16:05, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The book I linked is the same one you linked in the ANI thread and describe as "wasn't even substantially about the school" [emphasis original], and its chapter titles match the ones listed by SeoR in the AfD discussion. I'm glad that you recognise now that the book is about the school, but very concerned about what this says about your approach to those discussions. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 16:51, 30 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support (uninvolved) reducing the topic ban to a less restrictive alternative (such as a limit of one comment per deletion discussion in a rolling 24 hour period). In his original post Adamant1 does rather worryingly call the original complaint "extremely spurious", which it wasn't, but his subsequent replies show his ability to reflect on what happened.  I'm happy to assume that he's learned.—<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b> T/C 09:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify that if you'll allow me to. When I said the original complaint was spurious I was mainly referring to some of the comments made by people who supported the topic ban. For instance the accusations of lying and racism. Plus someone supported the topic ban because I supposedly refused to withdraw the deletion request, which never happened. I'll also point out that the original complaint was opened by an IP editor who was connected to the school. So in any other instance it would have been closed with no action. That's not to say Girth Summit's topic ban proposal wasn't justified though. I said at the time, and will repeat again, that I think it was totally valid. --Adamant1 (talk) 09:52, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Years ago I suggested to you, Adamant1, that when you're in a hole you should stop digging. I wish you'd listened. Calling others' comments in the thread that lead to your topic ban "spurious" is the last think you should want to do. Even if they were spurious (which they were not), you shouldn't call them that. Drmies (talk) 14:38, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Following up more specifically to S Marshall's line of questioning, I notice that several deletion discussions were mentioned in your topic ban discussion; among these were Articles for deletion/St. Augustine's College (Malta), Articles for deletion/Combermere School, and Articles for deletion/Constantine 1 University. In these, I notice a tendency for you to take it personally and lash out whenever someone presents a view different from yours. Keeping in mind the assume good faith policy and the policy on treating Wikipedia like a battleground, can you briefly suggest how you could respond more constructively in the future when faced with opposition to your proposals? Remember that the goal of these discussions is to find consensus, not to win. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't want to go into to much, but I was being pretty viciously attacked by multiple users at that point, including Necrothesp. Which is why we got into the back and forth in Articles for deletion/St. Augustine's College (Malta). It had nothing to do with taking it personally and lashing out whenever someone presents a different view. I had just already been arguing with Necrothesp in other places and we continued it in the DR when we shouldn't have. As to the other DRs, there was clearly a miscommunication in the DR about Combermere School somewhere and I should have been clearer about what exactly I was talking about. Since me and SeoR were clearly talking about things. Regardless, I think it mostly comes down to being clearer about things and not engaging in or continuing unproductive discussions. --Adamant1 (talk) 16:05, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but vague aspersions won't do. Provide a link to these vicious attacks or withdraw your accusation. Also the only book published by the University of the West Indies cited in the article at the time of the AfD discussion was Combermere School and the Barbadian Society, and SeoR brought it up in the very first reply to your deletion nomination. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:BATTLEGROUND's very first words are "Wikipedia is not a place to hold grudges". Context is important of course, but editors not involved in your conflict won't be aware of your history, nor should they need to be. When someone like me looks at a discussion like St. Augustine's, what I see is Necrothesp leaving a rather mundane keep vote, and then you immediately attacking the person and not the comment, having not participated in the discussion at all up to that point. The two of you then went off on a wall of text tangent attacking each other and not really discussing the article at all. To a new user, it now looks like that sort of vicious abuse is to be expected from participating in a deletion discussion. Can you explain why that sort of thing is detrimental to a collaborative project like Wikipedia? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:57, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not holding a grudge. I was merely explaining to you why I acted the way I did at the time because you asked. I have no ill will toward Necrothesp or anyone else for how I was treated though. I'd just like to be un-topic banned and move on from this whole thing. As to why that sort of thing is detrimental to a collaborative project like Wikipedia, it creates a hostile, toxic environment that people don't want to contribute to. You can read through the DR that I linked to. There's plenty of the behavior I'm talking about in it. I'm not here to axe grind or relitigate anyone else's behavior though. Just explain mine. As to the book, all SeoR said was it was published by the University of the West Indies. He never said the title though and there's multiple books by the same publisher and author that discuss the school. So I probably just mixed them up in the back and forth. --Adamant1 (talk) 17:19, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * You talk about "the DR that I linked to". What do you mean by that? If you have been the target of vicious attacks then we need to be told clearly about them so the perpetrator(s) can be blocked. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:38, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * My "vicious attacks" on Adamant1 apparently involved not agreeing with them and objecting to their comments about my integrity. You've got to laugh! Incidentally, if they "had just already been arguing with Necrothesp in other places" I neither remember it nor can find it. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:21, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support, tentatively. Be advised, I do close a lot of AfDs, and if I see any walls of text from Adamant1, I'll be quick to suggest re-instating the topic ban. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  15:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Suppurt - We'll never know whether or not Adamant1 has amended their ways in this area, if we don't give them a chance to prove they have. GoodDay (talk) 16:08, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support, also tentative (basically per Ritchie333). I'm not really satisfied by the responses to the questions I asked above, I get the sense that they're more defensive than responsive. But the responses are in the right direction when they get around to it, they have been civil in this discussion even when defensive, and I appreciate the introspection with respect to toxicity here, so I'm satisfied enough to support lifting the restriction. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:33, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support with a short piece of rope, if that make sense - like Ritchie333, I tend to also read a lot of AfD's (and also close some now and then), and I'd be disappointed to see a reversion to the behaviours that led to the topic ban being implemented in the first place. Daniel (talk) 22:28, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose, "I'm not going to relitigate the ANU complaint since a lot of it was extremely spurious" gives me the impression that nothing has changed at all, as do the very dubious comments about them looking at a different book somehow (what, throughout the AfD and the ANI discussion, where you pointed to actual pages of the very same book?). "I just won't repeatedly respond to people who clearly aren't listening"? Everything points to a lack of awareness of the actual reasons for the ban, and nothing gives me confidence that their behaviour will be any different, or that they will not just stop the basgering, but actually be able to accept good sources presented by others. Lifting the ban would be a bad idea. Fram (talk) 09:23, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I see that as WP:EHP. We don't need him to admit he was wrong in the past. We need him to learn to take Wikipedia less personally and to disengage from confrontation. There's clear commitment to that in what he says to me.—<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b> T/C 13:04, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I do need to see him recognise that at least on the factual basis for AfDs, things like being able to fairly consider the sources presented by others, he was wrong in these instances. If he now will be less confrontational but still fundamentally wrong about things which are essential for AfD discussions (and completely unwilling to acknowledge that he was obviously discussing the same book, making fanciful excuses instead), then why would it be beneficial for enwiki to let him loose at AfD again? Fram (talk) 17:16, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I said I was confused about what book it was at the time and that looking into it now Combermere School and the Barbadian Society is actually about the school. The confusion was why I linked to the wrong book in the ANU complaint though. If I'm remembering correctly I copied the links from someone else's comment and didn't bother to check them because I just didn't care about it at that point. Since I assumed I'd be blocked either way. I think the keep to delete ratio for AFDs I've opened is on par with the normal average though. So it's not like I have a history of opening spurious AFDs or there's anything else that would be an issue if I just don't bludgeon discussions anymore. I'm more then willing to say that I screwed up in how I handled Articles for deletion/Combermere School though. If I could do it over I would have just had it procedurally kept after Jacona provided the articles instead of continuing to argue about it. --Adamant1 (talk) 17:50, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You were well aware about what book everyone else was talking about during the ANI discussion, just look at your 20:18, 31 March 2022 (UTC) comment. Fram (talk) 18:10, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You can say that, but your the one who had brought up the name of the book at the beginning of the ANU complaint and I never read your comment. Also, if you look at the first point when I replied to complaint I was focusing on the articles and Jacona's behavior, not the book or the back and forth about it with SeoR. So I wasn't really paying attention to which book we were talking about. Girth Summit brought up the book later, but never said which one he was talking about. Your the only who said the title, and again I didn't read your comment. BTW, I said as much in my first comment "unfortunately I'm busy with other stuff right now so I don't have time to read through this discussion." --Adamant1 (talk) 18:46, 1 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I get that it's hard to say you fucked up, but the fact that Adamant is doubling down now, eighteen months later, does not give me confidence. If Adamant was so focused on winning the argument that they didn't notice that the book being discussed was not the one they meant, even to the point where they, that's a major issue and one which I would need to see them addressing convincingly to support this appeal. I'm not seeing that here. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:53, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Being confused because I didn't take the time to completely read through the discussion when I should have is a fuck up. I should have read people's comments, including Frams, before leaving a message or discussing it and not linked to the wrong book. They aren't mutually exclusive. The confusion and mix up caused by not reading the discussion before I commented on it was a large part of the issue though. --Adamant1 (talk) 03:19, 2 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose. In this very thread Adamant1 casts very serious unsubstantiated aspersions against one named and an undetermined number of unnamed editors (I was being pretty viciously attacked by multiple users at that point, including Necrothesp). If he behaves like that when all eyes are on him so he is on his best behaviour how can we expect him to behave if he is let loose on AfD discussions again? Then there is the issue of the book, about which he is either not telling the truth or did not read or could not understand the simple English in the AfD discussion. I'm sure that he believes that he is right, but unfortunately he is not. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:04, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose, since being topic banned here Adamant basically semi-retired here and moved to Commons, being 99% active in images for deletion discussions, and there he has showed the same problematic, confrontational and bludgeoning tenure that led to his block here. I suggest to read this very recent Commons AN discussion, which ironically was started by him himself, and all the related links. So, while Commons is a different project with different rules, I don't really think anything has changed. --Cavarrone 09:06, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. I see e.g. this very recent discussion which shows basically the exact same issues which lead to the ban here. Fram (talk) 10:00, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose I'm very uninvolved and I didn't plan to comment here, but Cavarrone's links to the Commons discussion with another example on Commons from just two weeks ago brought up by Fram are very concerning. This comment on Ritchie's talk page is what ultimately led me here, since it directly contradicted people's AGF comments above: characterizing opposers as holding grudges (axe grinding; opposed [..] by the same couple of people who I've had past issues with) doesn't seem to suggest learn[ing] to take Wikipedia less personally and to disengage from confrontation (S Marshall's comment above), and then asking how to get around that next time ("that" referring to the supposed axe-grinding by people who opposed) doesn't match what Ivanvector has said above about discussions as to find consensus, not to win. <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x Deadbeef  →∞ (talk to me) 13:13, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose: what and others said. I could have supported lifting the sanction with a contribution limit, maybe, if they'd just stopped talking, but they didn't, and so they had to rehash, a time or two, things that were already covered last time. No, Adamant wasn't "viciously attacked" by  and others. No, there were no "spurious" comments or attacks in the AfD, the ANI thread, or wherever--besides those by Adamant, and this thread (and Ritchie's talk page) are full of spuriosities by the editor. No, that book was indeed the book...etc., I don't need to type it out again. This is quite disappointing because I'm all for second chances. Drmies (talk) 14:42, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm rather concerned by "I'll also point out that the original complaint was opened by an IP editor who was connected to school, which in any other instance would have led to the complaint being closed on it's face with no action." It's not my experience that we dismiss complaints on this noticeboard out of hand simply on the grounds that they are made by people who do not have accounts. Uncle G (talk) 23:51, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I should also mention that all of this "As to the book, all SeoR said was it was published by the University of the West Indies. He never said the title though and there's multiple books by the same publisher and author that discuss the school. So I probably just mixed them up in the back and forth." discussion rings a bit hollow. There wasn't a choice of University of West Indies books until I mentioned the 2nd one in the noticeboard discussion 3 days later. I find that if one totally mis-reads something, acknowledging the mistake doesn't seem to cause anywhere near as much kerfuffle as 18 months of noticeboard discussions. Uncle G (talk) 08:59, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Not that it matters at this point anyway, but the other University of West Indies book comes up if you click the Google Books link in the "Find sources" section of the original deletion request. So it was in fact a choice before you mentioned it. It was also published in 1998 and is by the same author as "Combermere School and the Barbadian Society." So it's not like I wouldn't have known about it before you brought it up even if it wasn't on Google Books anyway. That's kind of the problem with this whole thing. It must be that I'm being dishonest. Not just that we had different experiences and information at the time. I can kind of understand it, but the whole thing really just seems like punishing me for past behavior more then anything else. And just to clarify, by that I specifically mean the disagreement over the books. Not the appeal more broadly. --Adamant1 (talk) 13:41, 5 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose As tone and notifications make it pretty clear you don't understand why the restriction was put in place to begin with. Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 08:30, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Block needed
IP needs a webhostblock. Also possible block evasion from User:104.253.213.87. Nobody ( talk ) 15:07, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:AIV is good for such requests. ArvindPalaskar (talk) 16:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Caroline Karason
Could an admin take a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Caroline Karason? It's gradually being turned into a wall of text that includes the article under discussion being copied and pasted into the AfD. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:36, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * removed the copied-and-pasted content so probably nothing more needs to be done here. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:55, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree but that user is yet to repost the article again on the AfD. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 14:04, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I suspect the only way that discussion is going to get back on track is the editor being partially blocked from that page for the next ~156 hours.  ——Serial  14:21, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * They have ignored links to pages they should read. They have ignored requests to stop voting everytime they post. They have been told to stop replying to everyone with the same walls of text. They have been advised that their behavior is verging on WP:DE. They have ignored the advice of multiple editors. Yet they still continue. Why is this?  ——Serial  15:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * As I was writing up a p-block for the AfD, Valeriee beat me to the punch. RickinBaltimore (talk) 15:55, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Great minds think alike, :)    ——Serial  15:59, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Special:Diff/1101473126 The indefinite block is the right action. Uncle G (talk) 22:11, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Topic Unban Appeal
I'm asking the admins to please consider removing my Syria topic ban. I know what I was banned for, edit warring, causing disruption, not using a civil language with other users, sockpuppetry, and failing to reach an agreement through discussions. and I apologise to all of the Wikipedia community and promise that I will never engage any any disruptive activity again. During my topic ban ( more than 1 year ), I contributed so much to the community portal by fixing hundreds and hundreds of grammar, punctuation and spelling mistakes across many articles Whatsupkarren (talk) 13:48, 17 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The topic ban was applied here on 2022-08-11 and reads, "The community imposes an indefinite topic ban from Syria-related topics, broadly construed; this ban may be appealed after 6 months (and every 6 months thereafter)." This ban was logged at Editing_restrictions. I have not verified that Whatsupkarren has avoided editing about Syria-related topics. --Yamla(talk) 14:10, 17 November 2023 (UTC)


 * From what I found, it seems that, at least on this wiki (hint), they didn't edit Syria-related topics. Nobody (talk) 14:48, 17 November 2023 (UTC)


 * They seem to have skirted the edges with a series of edits on people of Kurdish ancestry in October last year (example) but appear to have stayed very clear on en:wp since. AirshipJungleman29(talk) 16:32, 17 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Just to add to the info, the topic ban was a step-down restriction from a full block/ban as a condition of a successful unban request. I've looked through their contributions and agree with the others, they seem to have abided by the terms of the ban and have edited constructively and without controversy. I'm all for rehabilitation so I'm minded to support the request. I'd be interested to know what kind of editing they plan to now do within the Syria topic area, but my support isn't conditional on an answer to that. Waggers TALK 15:50, 20 November 2023 (UTC)


 * @Waggers There are so many notable Syrian figures that do not have articles on English Wikipedia, to name a few: Paul Daher, Farid Boulad Bey, Benedicto Chuaqui. I’ll work on creating many of these.


 * I will also work on expanding articles such as, palmyra, Ebla, Ugarit, Umm el-Marra, and Tell Abu Hureyra


 * Wikipedia doesn’t have a lot of active users interested in Syria, I believe I can add so much value Whatsupkarren (talk) 14:12, 21 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support They seem genuinely constructive, and I don't see any further disruption their ban would prevent. EggRoll97 (talk) 06:11, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

My topic unban request was removed by a bot before being closed 2X. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1187091102 Whatsupkarren (talk) 15:04, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Fixed malformed copy and paste. QoH's dirty sock(talk) 15:28, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Whatsupkarren (talk) 07:08, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Whatsupkarren (talk) 04:29, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Since the topic ban includes a single-account restriction I ran a check; checkuser cannot prove a negative but I found nothing to suggest that the restriction has been violated. Support based on the other endorsements here. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:42, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This appeal has been archived a number of times without a conclusion. I've added a "do not archive" tag to hopefully prevent that from happening again. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:39, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for doing that. The discussion seems very slow for some reason but we have three admins favouring support and no opposes, after 18 days. Is that sufficient to close and remove the ban? <b style="color:#98F">W</b><b style="color:#97E">a</b><b style="color:#86D">g</b><b style="color:#75C">ge</b><b style="color:#83C">r</b><b  style="color:#728">s</b><small  style="color:#080">TALK  15:23, 5 December 2023 (UTC)


 * support based on the above. A quick look shows nothing troubling. Most recent contributions are Gnomish.  Larger contributions involve Turkey, but that's fine.  Hobit (talk) 14:25, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

block enforced without providing an indication of the problem: I made necessary changes as was indicated by the previous complaints
I can't provide the talk page notification as the editor has caused a block on the talk page. The administrator enforced the block without providing any warning.

Could someone review the problem please

The 1st complaint was made against: https://simple.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Schizophrenia&oldid=9206006 version 21 November 2023 at https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Simple_talk#User:Simpul_skitsofreeneea during 22 November 2023. I made the necessary improvements as was indicated by the details of the complaint (which was complexity, by adhering to the Flesch-Kincaid scores). I have been working with editors subsequently on the Talk page and the Flesch-Kincaid is greatly improved. The adminstrator didn't indicate there was any additional problem Talk:Schizophrenia so I couldn't provide any response. The reasons he gave in the Talk page aren't true. "As it stands this article totally fails WP:SI." please view the copypasted scores for the article which evidently don't indicate failure at all (the expected range is "70+" @ Talk:Schizophrenia The Flesch-Kincaid in the version 14:46, 10 October 2023 before I began to make changes for the intro was 58.5 the current intro is 84.8, before: the whole article (which the administrator was involved in): 48.6, the current version is 75.7. (using https://goodcalculators.com/flesch-kincaid-calculator/) these scores don't indicate the administrator has used a legitimate reason for blocking. Simpul skitsofreeneea (talk) 00:59, 7 December 2023 (UTC)


 * You're on the wrong Wikipedia - this is the English Wikipedia, your issue is on the Simple Wikipedia. Nobody here can do anything.  Acroterion   (talk)   01:01, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I cannot access the notice board there because of the block. If the block is for no legitimate reason this means I am blocked without recourse to unblocking without adminstration oversight (considering the block automatically blocked the adminstration noticeoard at Simple). Simpul skitsofreeneea (talk) 01:56, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This has nothing to do with en.wikipedia. You are complaining about a different project. We can't help you with that. --Yamla (talk) 01:59, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * And I note that having been blocked at Simple for disruption at their article on passive smoking schizophrenia, you're over here and making undiscussed page moves and a lot of edits to terminology, after other editors have disputed your edits to passive smoking on both en wiki and Simple. I've warned you for using the talkpage as a soapbox and move-protected the article. Please slow down and find consensus for your edits.  Acroterion   (talk)   03:24, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * On Simple Wikipedia, there's a guide for how to appeal blocks. The beginning tells you the technical method, and the rest is a guide on how to make the request convincing. Please follow the instructions there (as far as I can tell, you can edit your own talk page there). Each Wikipedia is independent; no Wikipedia tells any other Wikipedia who they may or may not block. While one of the Simple admins may happen to also read this noticeboard, it's unlikely that you will get any help here. Animal lover &#124;666&#124; 09:49, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry to bother you again. The second editor in the so-called discussion which produced a block of me: without a legitimate reason (which is provable) is now having deleted the complete article History of schizophrenia. "This article is very bad and would be better as a redirect to a section" could be a valid reason, but the editor didn't provide any evidence and I'm sure it csn't be true: I don't know how the editor knows it is bad, and if I think how it could be, I can't think especially of any particular bad to mention. The article had a daily average of 46 viewers (during November) this month 69: even if it is bad, it could be improved. Do you think someone could do something about the deletion since I'm sure it is against policy somewhere, and people could benefit - are relying on the work.Simpul skitsofreeneea (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 00:44, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * History of schizophrenia is an article in 4 languages Arabic, English, French, Suomi - the editor was obliged to retain the article as the title is vlid: he/she should have improved it not blanked the page. The sources were valid and I transferred from the sources as accurately as needed. I'm not a professor. Simpul skitsofreeneea (talk) 00:48, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Category that can only be created by an admin
I don't see why Category:Pedophiles is so controversial. There are clearcut examples, including world-renowned physicist Erwin Schrödinger to my shock and disgust. Some of them are already listed in Category:Pedophilia. So I would like to request its creation. Clarityfiend (talk) 13:07, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Because once it is created, it can be added to any article including BLPs. It adds more pain and work than benefit. I swear I remember this discussion a few years/decade ago. <small style="background:#ccc;border:#000 1px solid;padding:0 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap;"> spryde |  talk  13:14, 5 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I doubt that the issue is with 'clear cut examples'. The category seems to have been deleted 8 times so far. Almost certainly because of its potential for misuse. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:15, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * To be fair, most of those deletions are because people recreated it with vandalism, or WP:G4s. The last actual discussion appears to have been in 2009: Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009_January_15. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 13:23, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Protecting admin here. The final deletion actually involved a credible threat to misuse the category (from the person who brought you Category:Pervs and Category:Shitbags). It does have a great potential for misapplication, discussed in the CfDs, which I don't see addressed here. There's a risk of creating a category for either 'people someone said was a pedophile' or 'people who abused children'. In the case of Schrödinger, after reading the article and doing a quick scan for sources, it seems we're relying on either User:Clarityfiend or a journo at the Irish Times to make the determination. Actually I think the Irish Times merely says "[someone] whose behaviour fitted the profile of a paedophile", which is not a strong basis for a category. That said, if another admin wants to go ahead over my protection, after hearing about how it won't be misapplied, knock yourself out. Personally I think it should be only be used with an accompanying edit filter limiting additions somewhat higher than EC level, if it's to be used at all. -- zzuuzz (talk) 14:30, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Looking at the closing statement, this category is probably a BLP issue, unless some edit filter can be written/modified to prevent this. Animal lover &#124;666&#124; 14:38, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * And thus the oft-requested "'watchlist' a category for add/removal" feature. 'Related changes' does catch additions. DMacks (talk) 16:43, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You can do that now, just watch the category. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 18:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that the watch category function often misses edits for some reason. Maybe it has improved since the last time that was discussed, though. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 19:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It does look more reliable now than when last I stress-tested it. DMacks (talk) 19:28, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * There are also issues with inclusion criteria with this category, as the medical definition is different from the variety of common (mis)conceptions of the term. Also this involves the jurisdictional issue of age of consent, age of majority, statutory rape, age of agency, and whether actions are required or just thoughts or fictional creations. And of course, whether Elvis or Jerry Lee Lewis or Muhammad, etc, will repeatedly be editwarred over. Any such category should only be for people convicted of a specific offense with the age criterion in the statue of law, thus the proposed name is not a good one. would probably be a more objective categorization. There have been many  convictions of 18-year olds concerning their 17-year old fiancees/girlfriends, so even with an object categorization, there are problems. -- 65.92.247.90 (talk) 04:59, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I totally agree. And to give an example of the converse, there are people like Jimmy Savile who were never convicted during their lifetime and can't be convicted posthumously because that isn't a thing, so couldn't be added to that category. So whichever way you go, it's fraught with problems. <b style="color:#98F">W</b><b style="color:#97E">a</b><b style="color:#86D">g</b><b style="color:#75C">ge</b><b style="color:#83C">r</b><b  style="color:#728">s</b><small  style="color:#080">TALK  08:59, 8 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I really do think the creation of this category is a bad idea with a strong potential for BLP violations. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:48, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * See WP:Deletion review.—Alalch E. 01:30, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Declined request at WP:AFC/R as pending further discussion. NotAGenious (talk) 12:40, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – December 2023
News and updates for administrators from the past month (November 2023).

Administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg Ganesha811 · JPxG
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Ajpolino · Lourdes · Mairi · RockMFR · Somno · WilyD
 * Pictogram voting rename.png →



CheckUser changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Beeblebrox · Opabinia regalis

Oversight changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Beeblebrox · Opabinia regalis

Guideline and policy news
 * Following a talk page discussion, the Administrators' accountability policy has been updated to note that while it is considered best practice for administrators to have notifications (pings) enabled, this is not mandatory. Administrators who do not use notifications are now strongly encouraged to indicate this on their user page.

Arbitration
 * Following a motion, the Extended Confirmed Restriction has been amended, removing the allowance for non-extended-confirmed editors to post constructive comments on the "Talk:" namespace. Now, non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace solely to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided that their actions are not disruptive.
 * The Arbitration Committee has announced a call for Checkusers and Oversighters, stating that it will currently be accepting applications for CheckUser and/or Oversight permissions at any point in the year.
 * Eligible users are invited to vote on candidates for the Arbitration Committee until 23:59 December 11, 2023 (UTC). Candidate statements can be seen here.

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Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 15:55, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Non-free image - Page move
I'm coming here because I am not sure what the exact process would be for this. TP discussion on the non-free image talk page plus 2011 Smithville tornado article talk page proved that File:2011 Smithville tornado.png was the tornado right before it. When I went to move the image, I was unable to actually move the image. The file should be named 2011 New Wren tornado, as the photograph is of the New Wren tornado, which was just before the 2011 Smithville tornado.

Is there some special process or procedure to go through since it is a non-free rationaled image, because page mover permission does not allow for a renaming of the page. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:25, 8 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Only WP:FILEMOVER's can move files in general, you can use the Rename media template to request a file move. Galobtter (talk) 23:27, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ File moved. &mdash; Mdaniels5757 (talk &bull; contribs) 23:56, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

MelroseReporter unblocked
Following a successful appeal to the Arbitration Committee, is unblocked (as time served) subject to a one-account restriction. This restriction may be appealed after 6 months have elapsed. For the Arbitration Committee, Izno (talk) 03:50, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Discuss this at: 

Moko Koza
This page was recently (re-)created. However, I can't see any of the deleted history. I went to check because I'd previously G4'd it a while back and want to see if this was another G4 possibility or if it would be legit. - UtherSRG (talk) 22:21, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Instead of looking at deleted history, look at the the deletion log. There you'll see, for example, Articles for deletion/Moko Koza and some other relevant items.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:32, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * No yeah, I can see the deletion history itself, but I can't see the deleted history. What's up with that? - UtherSRG (talk) 22:42, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Weird, neither can I. Galobtter (talk) 23:25, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Is it possibly because you undeleted the page on 28 July 2023 28 and moved it to Draft:Moko Koza? CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 00:40, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Given the clear copy/paste from the draft to the article, I have histmerged them. Primefac (talk) 10:43, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Wow... how did I not see that? Thanks all! - UtherSRG (talk) 14:04, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * All roads to Moko Koza creation lead to Sockpuppet investigations/The Anonymous Earthling.-- Ponyo bons mots 18:32, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Dealing with WikiEdu editors adding complete junk to articles.
Over at Rabbit, WikiEdu student has been adding completely unsourced, unencyclopedic junk. Given that they are are a WikiEdu student, what am I supposed to do in this situation? Am I just supposed to let them add it for the duration of the class? Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:23, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Considering you're the vastly experienced editor and this student has made a grand total of 19 contributions, I'd hope you could avoid shouting at the student (in edit summary) as if they're totally responsible for your apparent resentment against the program. Adding feedback as opposed to merely reverting the entire work would be the preferred behavior. BusterD (talk) 00:41, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, no, this was pretty much a WP:TNT case if I've ever seen one. However, the edit summaries were way out of line, Hemi. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 00:45, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. If you see a student editor adding unencyclopedic content to articles, you should give them some feedback and encouragement, rather than a cryptic warning and then bringing them to ANI and calling their work "junk". Please show some respect for editors who are learning. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 00:47, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The one at fault here is WikiEdu, who compels these students to add poor work like this as part of college courses. People just want to pass the class, and I understand that, but it puts burdens on real Wikipedia contributors. WikiEdu editors should not be allowed to put content into mainspace unless it has been approved by volunteers. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:55, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Student editors basically never go on to become long-term contributors, so there's no reason to encourage them, especially if there initial work is very bad like in this case. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:54, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The above may be the single worst take on WP:AGF I've ever read on this board. BusterD (talk) 00:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My nineteeth edit. Hemiauchenia's nineteenth. I give the student editor full credit for their boldness. BusterD (talk) 01:10, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * As I have stated earlier, the problem here is WikiEdu compelling people to do add stuff like this for college credit without there being any quality control by the instructors before the content is added, not the individual students themselves. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:14, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * By the percentages, almost no one does: from Template:Registered editors by edit count, only 2.5% of registered editors who made one edit end up making at least 100 edits, and only 0.75% end up making at least 500 edits. (Select "Table 2 – successful editors" or "Show all" to see the stats for registered editors who made an edit.) isaacl (talk) 01:08, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I also note over on the Wiki_Ed/Western_Illinois_University/Teaching_Writing_in_Middle_and_High_School_(Fall_2023) page that one of the other WikiEdu students is apparently assigned the task of creating an article at Patrol Base Abate -- I've never heard of this, and a quick Google search turns up almost nothing -- setting aside videos and images or the "did you mean" suggested alternative spellings, there are only five hits, one of which is the WikiEdu page I just linked above.
 * I might be mistaken and Patrol Base Abate might actually be a noteworthy topic. If it isn't, however, this causes me to worry that the WikiEdu program coordinators might not be sufficiently familiar with Wikipedia norms to be coaching others on how best to write Wikipedia articles...  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:45, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Eirikr, it seems to be some type of veteran organization. (Spelled Abbate, not Abate) Schazjmd   (talk)  00:48, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I tried to fix that for them. Let's see if it will take.-- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 00:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Schazjmd, @SarekOfVulcan, thank you both. 😄 ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:38, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, thanks, I've watchlisted the page.  ——Serial  17:09, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * On what talk page did you engage with this editor before dragging them to AN? Shells-shells (talk) 01:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Student editors in my experience basically never directly respond to attempts to try to talk to them. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:07, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Did you engage them with the professor or Wiki Ed staff then? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:14, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I honestly do not know how that process works and did not really know the formal process for drawing up a complaint. I wanted to go to AN for advice. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This might be a good time to review WP:HOLES. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 01:18, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Treat a student edit like any other newbie edit. They don't deserve any special treatment, and likewise don't deserve to have to put up with Hemiauchenia's ranting in edit summaries just for the fact of being a student while making a bad edit. Here are the differences between a student editor and any other new editor: (1) when it comes to how to apply policy, there is no difference. Revert, warn, block, etc. exactly as much as you would any other new user; (2) student editors have to go through some basic training that other newbies do not have to go through, ideally making problematic edits (which these edits to rabbit certainly are) less common than your average new user's; (3) there are three people you can ping/nag/poke to deal with problematic student edits. In this case, that would be the student, the professor (, and the Wiki Ed staff person (. Rather than complain loudly about how all students are terrible, why not take advantage of the support system that exists specifically to help you deal with this, which doesn't exist for other new users? &mdash; Rhododendrites  <sup style="font-size:80%;">talk \\ 01:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see how Jesus christ the complete crap put into Wikipedia by WikiEdu students never ceases to amaze me. Zero sources whatsoever or don't care about you being a student editor. This is crap. There's zero sources, a basic requirement of Wikipedai editing, see Wikipedia:Reliable sources are appropriate edit summaries at all. Silver  seren C 01:24, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I equally would throw the filer's behavior here right back at them. The student here seems to be trying to make edits in good faith, and the filer is essentially engaging in attacks against them because they're a student. I'm fairly sure if anyone said these kinds of things to a veteran editor, talk of sanctions would ensue, or at the very least quite the stern warning. The filer gave the student a singular templated warning prior to bringing them to a noticeboard, and is violating essentially every tenet of WP:BITING. I'm more inclined at this venue to ask if I've missed some reason why the filer at this rate hasn't been blocked for biting the newbies, other than that the other editor involved just so happens to be a student. Likewise, much praise is in order to, for example, BusterD, seen here engaging with a new editor appropriately. EggRoll97 (talk) 02:20, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm no angel myself and I don't need to see User:Hemiauchenia grovel. They said something suboptimal. I have confidence they'll remember this AN thread they started. Every one of us is liable to misspeak occasionally. Hemiauchenia is quite correct in saying we don't normally get good communications, useful wikipedians or great work from these WikiEd students. I have zero disagreement with that frustration. For my part, I just wish there was a way we could take this thread and help move THAT effort forward. BusterD (talk) 02:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure, and I don't expect perfection, but generalizing all student editors as only adding "crap" is a brazen attack, and filer's communication here has been heavily lackluster, especially prior to bringing it to a noticeboard intended for severe problems, not two reverted edits. EggRoll97 (talk) 03:05, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I never said that all of what WikiEdu students add is crap. I have seen some genuinely good contributions. The problem is that of lot it is bad and that there is no proper vetting by instructors before the material is added, and ultimately that mess is something that regular Wikipedia editors have to clean up. As I have previously stated I am frustrated with the WikiEdu process, not this particular student, who is a symptom rather than a cause. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:09, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think we get great work from most editors. Instead I think WikiEd editors often give us work that ranges from serviceable to good as with another student's efforts from this class at Concrete mixer. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 07:12, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think we get great work from most editors Concur. Sad, but true. This is true even among prolific editors in my experience. Hemiauchenia (talk) 07:47, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It's too bad WikiEdu doesn't have some sort of vetting process for the instructors beyond their completing some module or whatever. Someone with 16 mainspace edits, 15 of them to Western Illinois Leatherbacks sports teams or coaches (and including a season article on the women's basketball team sourced solely to non-independent websites), done strictly between 2017 and 2020, is not even close to experienced enough with Wikipedia to be guiding new editors on proper Wikipedia editing... Honestly I find it baffling why professors would even want to run a course using a system they have essentially zero background in. It just seems like it would be frustrating and unproductive for both instructor and students to be at basically the same level of skill in the subject with evidently no desire to actually improve in or engage with the subject outside of class. This is like a marketing prof deciding that the semester project will require collaborating on GitHub, a tool no one, including the professor, has used, plus every time the students submit something it bypasses pull requests and just gets merged directly into whichever random person's external repo it forked from. JoelleJay (talk) 03:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, another of this instructor's students managed to 2200 edit-summaried bytes of seemingly DUE material, including mostly-well-formatted grouped references, to their chosen editing subject, "concrete mixer". So who knows, maybe the class is actually effective overall... JoelleJay (talk) 03:13, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah I looked at that one after this thread was filed and saw nothing problematic. While it's true that WikiEd professors could often correspond / teach Wikipedia better, we can't blame them or the general program for every student who does a bad job. Folly Mox (talk) 14:18, 5 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Okay, clearly Hemi is being kind of a dick here, but it's kind of flabbergasting that we have to do this stuff in the first place. Keep in mind that college professors get paid money -- a lot of money usually -- what we're being asked to do is do their job (i.e. evaluating and guiding the students) for free. Which we're happy to do, but on the other hand, some effort is required on the other end. How about this: every time someone has to copyedit, verify, trim or otherwise mess around with poor-quality student writing, we let them send the university an invoice? (Not to speak for other editors, but I'd also accept a non-paying faculty position, an honorary degree, and a .edu email address in lieu of cash). <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 09:19, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Having previously taught briefly in higher education, I think if I were held personally responsible for every bad behaviour any of my students engaged in, I'd be in jail for plagiarism. Folly Mox (talk) 14:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * a lot of money usually - lol. &mdash; Rhododendrites  <sup style="font-size:80%;">talk \\ 15:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * sob. -- asilvering (talk) 23:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The amount of cluelessness packed into this short paragraph is impressive. --JBL (talk) 17:48, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, a "lol" I will suffer gladly, but for "cluelessness" I have to offer a response. For the United States, the Bureau of Labor Statistics gives an annual mean wage of $87,960 for college/university/professional school instructors, which is about $42/hr. University graduates and programmers and such are disproportionally represented among Wikipedians, so this may not feel like a lot, but for reference, the last time I worked in a plant (as a fabricator with a few years of experience) it paid $18/hr, and the minimum wage in the US is $7.25/hr. Of course, professor salaries are a rather small component of overall spending by colleges (less than a third). Still, it is a lot more money than most normal people make (10th percentile hourly wage is $13.14, 25th is $16.03, 50th is $22.26, 75th is $35.32 and 90th is $53.03). But regardless: if college tuition costs, on average, between $10k and $42k per year, it's hard for me to really get on board with doing free labor for the sake of companies that already receive substantial funding (from both students and the government, i.e. taxes, i.e. everyone). It's one thing to put work into assisting other editors, even inexperienced ones, who are volunteers who contribute here out of a desire to improve the project. But, I think, it's a different thing to assist inexperienced editors who are being directed here by an organization they paid $30,000 to give them experience. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 01:11, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with your sentiment that we aren't being paid so the student editors aren't our concern. However most academic staff in the United States are on insecure temporary contracts working as Adjunct professors which have much lower pay. Some of the WikiEdu staff are paid quite generously though, over $100,000 per annum. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:28, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Today, these itinerant teachers make up a whopping 75 percent of college instructors, with their average pay between $20,000 and $25,000 annually. (USA )
 * University staff who can’t afford to eat ask for campus food banks (UK )
 * The first article deals with a case well-known enough that the instructor in question has a Wikipedia article: Margaret Mary Vojtko. -- asilvering (talk) 03:42, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The cluelessness is not limited to the assertion about faculty salaries (about which others have responded; I was not able in 10 minutes to figure out the BLS methodology, and the numbers you quoted are perhaps conceivable for tenured/tenure-track faculty but certainly not for people who perform the bulk of post-secondary education) but also every other part of the paragraph: the bizarre idea that fixing poor student contributions to Wikipedia is "do[ing] the job" of a college instructor, the incoherent grouping "non-paying faculty position, an honorary degree, and a .edu email address in lieu of cash", .... No part of it appears grounded in anything beyond a feeling of indignation. --JBL (talk) 19:47, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Invoicing when you clear up other editors mistakes? There's a couple of long-term editors I could make bankrupt. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:31, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * And if I screw up smth in my editing something should contact my dean to let her know. (I am actually surprised nobody had done this yet given that I get death threats for my Wikipedia editing on a weekly basis, and just some shit on a daily basis). Ymblanter (talk) 21:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I got someone threatening this in one of my first months here. Sure made me glad I have a pseudonymous account! (Not that my dean would care. She's seen worse.) -- asilvering (talk) 23:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah OpIndia started harassing me on Twitter after my edits to Ayurveda lol. JoelleJay (talk) 02:15, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If we are looking in this direction, my Facebook account was disabled after three false copyright complains, then I had to make my Instagram account non-public after two complaints (the third one would lead to shutting it down as well), and then the same person send e-mails to me and my family members with such content that we had to report to the police. Ymblanter (talk) 06:38, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've personally had mixed experiences with student assignments, but there's always the education noticeboard for issues with a class; I don't think the original post would've gone down well there either though. Graham87 (talk) 11:49, 5 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I concur with others that say that Hemiauchenia made the right point the wrong way. Calling a new editor's contributions "crap" flies in the face of several core policies that we all know about; however I have seen problematic edits from instructors eg: User talk:Tesleemah that makes me question what the qualification requirements are to be one. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  11:50, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Responding to the comments about vetting professors and their motivation. I'll give my personal take, having taught with Wikipedia before WikiEdu existed and later being involved with WikiEdu (call that bias or insight or both, I guess). I started teaching with Wikipedia because I was responsible for teaching students about digital media studies, media/information literacy, online rhetoric, etc. and here was this website they all used every day, even while teachers told them not to use it, and none of them knew how it really worked. Turns out, the best way to actually communicate all the lessons Wikipedia has to offer is by having students engage with it directly as editors. It can also be an effective way to teach about course subjects via an alternative writing genre that requires summarizing a bunch of literature. The moment I knew I was onto something was when I overheard one student tell another about how they'd been bragging about the article they wrote at a party. Students who do it well take pride in contributing to this resource that helps the public, as opposed to a term paper that just gets thrown away as soon as the class is over. And I took pride in their contributions, as someone who cares very much for Wikipedia. In general, professors who teach with Wikipedia are doing so because they care about this site, not because they hate it, and see it as a great way for students to learn. Here's the thing, though: students probably won't have a great learning experience if they contribute junk and just get reverted/scolded. Nobody wins in that scenario. Tons of instructors, especially those teaching around the time I was, learned the hard way that running a Wikipedia assignment can be a downright miserable experience for everyone involved if done poorly. So the question is how do you give them the best chance to succeed? That's what the whole Education Program, and later WikiEdu, was/is intended to figure out. When I started, it was really hard for anyone who didn't invest an unreasonable amount of time to understanding how it all works. There were help pages, sure, but they were scattered all over and often outdated. There was no teahouse. I had a leg up in that while I wasn't an active contributor yet, I'd been researching/lurking/hanging around for a while, but still struggled to find good resources for students and wound up making some of my own. The value of the Education Program/WikiEdu isn't that they bring lots of classes to Wikipedia but that they form a support system for those professors/students. It's not reasonable to expect that only professors with tons of experience can do this, and it would do a disservice to both students and our project. So there's a system where the instructor gets some training, but it's more about how to run this assignment rather than how to edit; students get editing training; and paid staff jump in when there are problems. It's far from a foolproof system. Anyone who's ever taught a class can tell you there are some students who manage to ignore all of the instructions. That seems like what happened here. It doesn't take a 15-year veteran with 100,000 edits to say "include citations". That kind of thing is in the training students and teachers both get and isn't exactly difficult to understand. It's a "students don't always follow directions" situation not "who's vetting these professors" situation. If there are course-wide problems, which happens maybe once in a while, that's another matter. I still say we should much prefer student editors to typical newbies. They come here with some training and motivation to do the right thing (even if it's extrinsic rather than intrinsic, many non-student new editors don't seem to have either), and they have not just a professor but paid staff who can respond to problems. What I really don't get is why some people seem to think student editors are somehow less deserving of basic decency than a typical new editor. Oof, this went long, sorry. &mdash; Rhododendrites  <sup style="font-size:80%;">talk \\ 15:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * While I'm not defending Hemi's comments, I think the issue is student and paid editors are alike in that they can be a drain on volunteer resources while drawing external benefit (payment, a grade, etc.)
 * If there were a better system for managing either of those, it would be less problematic. However, there aren't enough WikiEdu staff to handle the pressure that students are under to publish content leaving the cleanup work to us. With fewer active, experienced editors-it's a lot of work for zero reward while seeing content degraded. It's a broken system where no one benefits and everyone gets frustrated. Star   Mississippi  16:57, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Why is a student being assigned to edit a high-level article like Rabbit in the first place? And does anyone else think those diffs smell like the content has been copied and pasted from somewhere? <b style="color: teal; font-family: Tahoma">HJ Mitchell</b> &#124; <span style="color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman" title="(Talk page)">Penny for your thoughts? 17:29, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Absolutely copy pasta, and because the system as a whole is broken. Are there areas where students could improve our content? Almost certainly. Are articles about basic subjects that are well covered and maintained it? Nope. Star   Mississippi  17:44, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell, articles are self assigned by students. This has often led to absurd choices, like a student choosing Hamas right at the start of the current conflict even though they did not have ECP, or picking one of the main COVID-19 articles right at the start of the pandemic. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:00, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * They have to be self assigned, if the instructor assigns topics and edits thats WP:MEATPUPPETry which wiki-ed is not an exception from. What the instructor should be doing is telling their students how to pick an appropriate page for their first edits (avoiding controversial topics or feature articles for example). Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 18:10, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That seems to stretch the definition of meatpuppetry beyond our typical meaning. If I tell a friend, "Hey, the Wikipedia article about that TV show you like could stand some fixing up," and they go and create an account and start editing it, is that meatpuppetry? I'm not recruiting them to create spurious support for my side of an argument; I'm just giving them something specific to get excited about. If a professor, say, assembles a list of articles needing attention and lets their students pick desired topics from that list, I don't see how that would automatically be unethical. Where's the actual puppeteering? Of course, it could in practice cross a line, but that could happen even without the professor assigning specific articles; e.g., if Prof. Smith tells their students to add citations to the groundbreaking works of Prof. Smith, and the students go and do that across pages they find themselves. The issue of whether the conduct is ethical is orthogonal to the question of whether specific articles have been chosen. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 20:12, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That seems like a classic Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest? which is outside of our understanding of meatpuppetry. This would be the equivalent of telling your babysitter that as a condition of employment she had to fix up the wikipedia page of the show you liked. Making a list of suitable topics (but also allowing students to pick their own) is a completely different thing which I don't mean to disparage at all, IMO that is best practice and is not normally an issue as long as students are not restricted to the list. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 20:23, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * But even if the professor picks a specific topic, I'm hard pressed to think of how that would be intrinsically unethical. Yes, if the professor tells the student to push a particular POV, that would be bad, but again, that could happen without the professor pointing to a specific article. Yes, it would be bad for a teacher to say, "As a condition of getting a passing grade, make me look good on Wikipedia." However, that's not the same as a teacher saying, "The Wikipedia article on circles is in mediocre shape. Your term project will be to write a replacement draft. I will grade what you have in your sandbox page on the last day of the semester." Picking the topic for the student might be excessively strict pedagogy, but that's a separate question from whether it violates Wikipedia policy. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 20:45, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree that this is a separate topic, I don't think our two positions are all that far apart but this might be a good topic of conversation for later. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 21:20, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If it's a copyvio or ChatGPT product then they're both degrading the encyclopedia and cheating on their school assignment and so deserve much worse than BITEy edit summaries. JoelleJay (talk) 03:48, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It would be great if instructors really were choosing to run WikiEd courses because they care about Wikipedia, because that would suggest they care about doing it right when it comes to contributing and they would put in the time and effort to actually learn at least the surface level of our P&Gs. Like, enough to be able to recognize the problems with editing CTOPs or high-level articles, or creating BLPs (or really creating a new article at all). Or to notice when a student adds of unreferenced COI trivia, or to intervene when they see several of their students' "peer reviews" contain recommendations to take screenshots of (potentially) copyrighted videos and add them to their articles. And if they legitimately cared about improving the encyclopedia, wouldn't you expect them to edit themselves, even if merely to give their students some examples of good edits? JoelleJay (talk) 03:38, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd like to interject that the Western Illinois University class being taught "Teaching Writing in Middle and High School (Fall 2023)" is not about writing on Wikipedia, but does have a writing on Wikipedia component. I can only imagine what it takes to teach writing in such an environment (or to subject oneself to take a class on such a topic). I wish we could help more with that effort. Teachers and wikipedians should be natural allies... BusterD (talk) 17:54, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Don't bite newcomers... They should be treated with every kindness and patience than any other new editor would be. But I would suggest giving the instructor a short sharp shock. Perhaps we need a multi-level template for "Your wiki-ed student isn't doing great" Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 18:07, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the ping . To address the concerns brought up in this discussion, we do provide significant support and resources for students and instructors. They are encouraged to reach out to their assigned Wikipedia Expert at any point in time during the project with questions. But students are humans like all of us and sometimes don’t engage with the support offered, and think what they’re doing is correct, when it’s not. When there are editing concerns, usually it’s one or two students that struggle to follow WP:PG in a class that otherwise does good work.To emphasize what was already mentioned above, treat the students as you would any other new editor. Enforce policy as you would any other new editor. Editors are of course welcome to offer constructive advice to students if you come across them, but if you see poor content and don’t want to bother, click through the student’s user page to find the course page, and on that page it’ll list the Wikipedia Expert (either User:Brianda (Wiki Ed) or User:Ian (Wiki Ed)) that you can ping. We take WP community alerts seriously, and I try my best to reply to pings and address concerns as soon as possible, and I know User:Ian (Wiki Ed)) does as well. Also there’s the WP:ENB that’s on our radar, where you can drop a note for us.If anyone's interested to see/learn more about the wide breadth of student work, you can check out all the articles being edited by the 6,000+ students currently enrolled in our program here: https://dashboard.wikiedu.org/campaigns/fall_2023/articles. Brianda (Wiki Ed) (talk) 18:15, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * we all appreciate the work of wiki-ed, but when I followed the given link and clicked on a random article in the article creation list I got Ang Casein, which as you will note has already been removed from main space. Draft:Ang Casein bears reviewing, its a mangled translation into Cebuano (maybe?) which was created in main space on en-wiki. It would not be unfair or inaccurate to characterize the presence of this sort of thing on en-wiki as "complete junk" even if I would probably be more diplomatic. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 18:34, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It has been on Cebuano Wikipedia since 28 November. Whether or not it is a mangled translation is something not worth speculating about unless someone here can read Cebuano, though Google Translate seems to understand it pretty well. I don't see how anyone could fairly characterize this as complete junk. It was just put in the wrong place at first—a situation that seems to have been resolved quickly and with little fuss. Shells-shells (talk) 18:53, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * So something being somewhere it shouldn't be and serving no purpose where it is and has been discarded... What is the definition of junk if not that? Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 18:57, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I guess it's just that, in the spirit of fairness, I wouldn't want my own work to be called complete junk simply because I put it in the wrong place at first.And, I mean, your definition seems a bit strange to me. If someone puts the Mona Lisa in a dumpster I don't feel that it suddenly becomes complete junk just because it's somewhere it shouldn't be and serving no purpose where it is and has been discarded. Shells-shells (talk) 19:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * But the Mona Lisa doesn't fulfill the standard, it would still have value and purpose even in a dumpster. A Mona Lisa in this scenario would be an article which actually is notable and does have a place on our wall so to speak. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 19:30, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Precisely. So, in our analogy, remove the Mona Lisa (ceb:Ang Casein) from the dumpster (enwiki) and put it in an art gallery (cebwiki). It's not complete junk. Shells-shells (talk) 21:55, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * One wiki's junk may be another wiki's treasure, but that doesn't mean it isn't junk here on enwiki. If you would like to make a policy and guideline based argument that it isn't complete junk here do so now. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 14:37, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * One key concept for me around this topic is "induced editing" and "mitigated editing". What I mean by that is that by its very existance WikiEd causes some editing that was going to be happening regardless - because the teacher wants to use Wikipedia for whatever reason - to be more productive htan it would have been without its existance. That is some amount of bad edits turn into neutral (e.g. happen in Sandboxes rather than live articles) or good edits thanks to the training and support WikiEd provides. The existance of WikiEd also means that professors who would never have wanted to teach with Wikipedia now do so and so bad edits happen that if WikiEd weren't around wouldn't happen. I think it's the sense of problems being created that wouldn't otherwise that really create frustration among volunteers. I know I've experienced that frustration when dealing with some classes. This is especially acute because when something's not a problem, we're just not seeing it or at least not feeling it in the same way. So WikiEd gets dinged a lot for the induced problems it casues, doesn't get much credit among volunteers for the positive edits it induces among students, and gets no credit (because how would we even measure it?) for the problems that its training mitigates but which would have happened otherwise. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:27, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I would add that they also get little credit for the positive edits of student veterans (especially those who chose to WP:CLEANSTART because they were instructed to include personal identification information in their student editing name). They might be under wiki-ed's purview for a semester but they could edit for years and years to come and if they would not have been exposed to wikipedia editing otherwise to me thats a more impressive figure than the ones for student edits while within the student editing program above. A single prolific editor can do what those thousands of students did in a semester over a career. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 20:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Hemiauchenia I want to report I experienced this exact same thing right here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Women_and_religion&oldid=1189036156 I didn't know they were with wikiedu earlier and warned them on their talk page User talk:SabrinaRD Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 08:08, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Other than identifying them as a newbie and as somebody who might be under pressure to edit (both of which call for extra empathy and helpfulness if only to compensate for the roughness of our environment) why should someone in a such a program be treated differently based on one's opinion of the program? The program itself is a separate issue. <b style="color: #0000cc;">North8000</b> (talk) 20:22, 5 December 2023 (UTC) That edit summary is definitely newbie biting at best, incivil at worst. And just published less than 24 hours ago, this peer reviewed paper's title is "Toxic comments are associated with reduced activity of volunteer editors on Wikipedia". Bit of an irony when Hemiauchenia claimed "Student editors basically never go on to become long-term contributors" while generating that type of toxic environment. <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 05:43, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've had a cheerfully shameless request on my talk, after my changes at Pisa Griffin were reverted, to please lay off until today, when his "project is due". Then I can do as I like. Pragmatic, anyway. Johnbod (talk) 01:35, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Two things: (1), please go through the training again and find slides like this one. If your professor is grading you based on what "sticks" in the article, they're doing it wrong (professors are explicitly told not to do this). If contributions are graded, it would be based on evidence of what was added (even if it was removed). I'd recommend giving it another shot, though, perhaps asking for advice on some draft text before implementing it. It's hard to see what the purpose of the changes to the lead were -- they seem to reword/condense things, but the reason for that is unclear. You changed the translation but didn't provide an alternative citation (and removed the one that was there). Adding the original Arabic text may be useful, but probably as a footnote if anything. Would be good to open discussion of the changes on the article talk page. Asking for special favors because of an assignment is a sure-fire way to generate resentment from volunteers, as you may have noticed. :) (2) Hemiauchenia decided to swoop in and plop down According to [this thread], your school project doesn't matter to Wikipedia, and you still need to get consensus for your edits. If there is a consensus in this thread for anything, it is that your approach to students is needlessly hostile and doesn't help anything. Of course the project "matters" to Wikipedia -- it's a new user making changes to the article, and we all want it to go well. If what you meant was more or less what I said above, the precision got lost in the antagonism. &mdash;  Rhododendrites  <sup style="font-size:80%;">talk \\ 02:20, 6 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I haven't been able to confirm this yet (I need to apply for API access to the classifier program), but the dataset indicated by this article seems like it may categorize vandalism warnings as "toxic comments", and the methodology seems to categorize indefinitely-blocked users as having "abandoned the project". <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 06:37, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Examples of comments and their toxicity ratings are provided in Supplementary Table S4 (they are quite enlightening). A boilerplate notice of speedy deletion for vandalism gets a toxicity score of 0.21. Note that We define a toxic comment as a comment that has a score of at least 0.8 on any of the six dimensions provided by Perspective API. The 0.8 score means that on average 8 out of 10 raters would mark it as toxic. Shells-shells (talk) 07:42, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * (ec) The state that the main results are based on comments with a "toxicity score" of 80%+. Based on Table S4, a standard G3 CSD notice (vandalism or hoax) clocks in at 21%, so that would suggest that this is not a driver. However, it would be nice to see what a direct block notice, received after inserting "poop" into five articles, would score at - because those could well account for a bunch of those day 1 full stops show in Fig. 1. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 07:59, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Out of curiosity, I got myself developer access to the API they mentioned in the paper -- Uw-own3 does indeed give   for   -- but at this point I fear we may be getting somewhat far afield of the AN thread (I would be happy to continue discussing wherever else). <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 08:35, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Creator of a competing wiki with advanced user rights
A conflict exists that the creator of a competing wiki that is extremely critical of enwiki has a number of advanced user rights on this site. Justapedia's slogan, repeated consistently throughout their marketing, is: "With the benefit of hindsight, Justapedia is restoring the spirit of objectivity and neutrality Wikipedia has long since lost." Juspapedia is seeking donations and promising their editors that they are "getting closer to attracting big donors". It would be in the interests of Justapedia for sub-par articles to be published on Wikipedia. It would be easier if the creator would voluntarily resign their NPP or autopatrolled rights, but if not it seems they should be removed. 163.182.131.62 (talk) 12:25, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * We generally don't ding editors for their off-wiki projects if these do not affect their on-wiki behavior. Can you provide any diffs suggesting that the editor in question is causing "sub-par articles to be published on Wikipedia"? I see no evidence of this. BD2412  T 13:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that the OP is saying that this is affecting their on-wiki behavior, that they are deliberately sabotaging Wikipedia by introducing sub-par articles in order to build a case that their own personal project is superior and worthy of "big donors" contributing. Not saying I agree, just summarizing their argument. 331dot (talk) 13:51, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Now that the complaint has been specified, we can agree this is silly. We don't believe that our content can easliy be sabotaged by a small number of villains, do we?<b style="color: #0011FF;"> SPECIFICO</b> talk 14:13, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I have no opinion here, but I'll just mention that Atsme — I don't know why people are pussyfooting around saying the name, it's surely not a secret? — was asked by in September to resign from the VRT, a request which she declined. Bishonen &#124; tålk 14:15, 6 December 2023 (UTC).
 * IMHO, I should think Atsme is a less than ideal voice of Wikipedia irrespective of this subject. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:39, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Objective3000 my concern is that a competitor has access to what should be confidential information and which could, hypothetically, be used in ways not helpful to Wikipedia. And do we really want a competitor responding to messages on VRT?
 * I believe this is all hypothetical as I think she is inactive. In which case there is no reason not to remove her rights but that can only be done by a VRT admin. Doug Weller  talk 14:43, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes to the concern. I additionally think that an editor with a history of disagreement with some of our most active articles and about whom DrMies once said exhibits “cynicism toward reliable sources and reputable media” is not a good face of Wikipedia. Just my opinion. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:45, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't understand the concern around "a competitor". Forking and reuse of Wikimedia content is encouraged, so long as proper attribution is in place. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 15:49, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Proper attribution is not in place. Take, for instance, which is copied content from Wikipedia of a now deleted page. The only attribution given is "This page may contain content developed from Wikipedia." There is nothing in the page history. As the page cannot even be found on Wikipedia this is no way compliant with the Wikipedia CC-BY-SA license. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:15, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This is somewhat of a separate topic, but regardless: the content there is licensed under CC-BY-SA as required, and the attribution text you mention links back to the corresponding Wikipedia article. That seems acceptable per Mirrors and forks. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 16:31, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * But it doesn't, does it? Can you tell from that page who wrote the content? I can't. So no, it does not meet CC-BY-SA. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:39, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia's main license, the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License (CC-BY-SA), requires that any derivative of works from Wikipedia must be released under that same license, must state that it is released under that license, and must acknowledge the contributors (which can be accomplished with a link back to that article on Wikipedia). GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 16:54, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The problem that Sirfurboy is raising is that the original Welsh crown jewels that Justapedia forked, was deleted eight months after they imported it. Because the original page is deleted on enwiki, only those accounts with the deletedhistory permission, which on enwiki is limited to admins, CU, OS, and researchers can actually view who created the content. In this circumstance, the requirement to acknowledge the contributors seems to be unfulfillable. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:03, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, thank you for explaining that. That would seem to be an issue for any fork, though, no? Surely wikis that fork Wikipedia content are not required to delete any article that is deleted back on Wikipedia. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 17:15, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, I suspect it would depend on whether or not they imported just the latest revision (as Justapedia did), or all of the revisions. Special:Export allows for you to export the full history of a page, but defaults (at least on enwiki) to only exporting the current revision. If a fork imported every revision, then us deleting the page they imported wouldn't matter, as they would still have a full copy of the contributor log locally.
 * But if the fork is only importing the most recent revision...I don't know. Copyrights gives three possible ways to provide attribution history; link to the original, or link to another copy of the original that conforms to the license and provides credit in an equivalent manner, or provide a list of the authors of the original. You could maybe achieve the second way, if you provided a link to an archived copy of the Special:History page of the original on the Wayback Machine or archive.today, made at or shortly after the export. But I'm not fully up to date with the intricacies of how CC-BY-SA works in this scenario more generally. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:30, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, so I asked the lovely folks at WP:CCI over on Discord, and the gist is that Justapedia must provide one of the alternate methods of attribution, similar to those mentioned at WP:RUD. An example of this in practice can be seen with EverybodyWiki, like Justapedia they forked the Welsh crown jewels article prior to its deletion, but they also have a separate namespace (Edithistory, note can't link this because that Wiki is on our local spam blocklist), which contains a local copy of the page history that we've now deleted.
 * If Justapedia don't do something like this, and provide attribution to the original enwiki authors in some form, then they'll be in breach of the content license. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:20, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * But would the WMF pursue legal action to enforce the content license in this case? 331dot (talk) 20:24, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That would be a question for the Foundation's legal department I'd assume. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:25, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * IIRC no, as the copyright lies with the contributors. Good luck tracking down the author of Welsh crown jewels and getting them to take action. <b style="font-family:Monospace">-- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH)</b> 20:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks to Sideswipe9th for following that up. No, I don't suppose anyone will take action. Why would they? There is no recoverable loss, and that site is justanotherfork. But they are not compliant with the license, and that's the point. Incidentally, I know who wrote that article but it was just an example. All the deleted articles have this issue, and it is possible to find others too (for instance, any move without a redirect) Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 20:43, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Maddy is right. The guidance at Mirrors and forks lays out the process an aggrieved editor can take, if they so desire, up to the point of issuing a DMCA takedown against Justapedia's hosting provider. I'm not sure the DMCA requires there to be a recoverable loss however, just a breach of copyright. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:01, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * WikiProject Editors of deleted articles or those moved without leaving a redirect sending DMCA notices to Justapedia? <b style="font-family:Monospace">-- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH)</b> 21:09, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for hunting that down. (I'm replying to the CCI comment if that's not clear in this jumble of replies). This seems very much like an edge case Justapedia didn't consider, rather than an intentional flouting of Wikipedia's licensing requirements, given that most of us didn't really know what's required in this case. It'd probably be best to just notify the folks over at Justapedia so they can handle it, since they seem to be trying in good faith to follow the forking and licensure requirements. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 23:01, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * [Heck if I know where to indent to in this maze either.] The WMF does publish - very inconveniently - the list of editors of deleted titles. See for example query/78531 for Welsh crown jewels, and it's also available in the database dumps.  In particular, suppressed and revdeleted edits are not shown, and neither are edit summaries; which is why I've always thought it insanity that we recommend providing authorship information in edit summaries instead of requiring history merges.  This has been the case since before I started editing in 2005 (and for a while in 2005, before I became an admin, it was shown on-wiki too - anyone could see what admins do at Special:Undelete/Welsh crown jewels, sans edit summaries).I'd still be furious if it my CC-BY-SA content that I'd published off-wiki and some random person on the Internet imported onto Wikipedia were attributed only in such a manner.  That "You agree that a hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution under the Creative Commons license" line under the edit summary box has effectively made the license unusable by anyone anywhere who doesn't want to assign credit solely to Wikipedia, even without taking the issue of deleted pages into account. —Cryptic 08:23, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * +1 to GorillaWarfare's comment . --JBL (talk) 19:50, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @JayBeeEll sorry, I can’t figure out what you replied to. Doug Weller  talk 20:26, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * No kidding, impossible to make out with the tower of comments in between, sorry -- I have clarified. --JBL (talk) 21:04, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Per Doug Weller, the VRT issue seems like a valid concern, easily resolved. All the otherstuff is classic Otherstuff, (not our special OTHERSTUFF} and can be addressed apart from any behavioural questions concerning our friend and longtime colleague, Atsme.<b style="color: #0011FF;"> SPECIFICO</b> talk 17:48, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I see no issue with forking and reuse in general. If a fork is created because a group of people have an ideological problem with Wikipedia (which in and of itself is fine), that group then has a vested interest in shifting traffic from Wikipedia to their fork, and as such are not well-placed to be handling VRTS tickets that are asking for help or sharing confidential information. This is particularly true when the fork was created for political reasons; I'd be concerned, but much less so, if the fork being discussed was from the roads wikiproject, or the film and television one. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:28, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "With the understanding that Justapedia's content was forked from the vast corpus of Wikipedia, which includes over 6.5 million articles, and numerous templates, projects, categories, and other freely licensed content, we face an equally large task in adapting and refining or completely changing this content to comply with Justapedia's five fundamental principles and core content policies. Many of the Wikipedia articles that have received widespread criticism from academics and the mainstream media have been forked to Justapedia, where they will be rewritten by volunteers who (a) share our mission and goals of preserving and protecting history, (b) want to restore the spirit of neutrality and objectivity, and (c) believe in the power of diverse perspectives. Happy editing!"
 * Breitbart as described in Justapedia (which does say that some content may be from Wikipedia) "Breitbart News Network (commonly known as Breitbart News, Breitbart, or Breitbart.com) is an American tabloid-style news and opinion website co-founded in 2007 by the late Andrew Breitbart and Larry Solov during their trip to Israel. They founded Breitbart News based on their beliefs that a strong democracy depends on accurate reporting and the free and open exchange of ideas. After Andrew's death on March 1, 2012, co-founder/CEO Larry Solov, along with Andrew's widow Susie Breitbart, and the Mercer family retained ownership of the company.The company is headquartered in Los Angeles, with bureaus in Texas, London, and Jerusalem.
 * Our article:"Breitbart News Network (known commonly as Breitbart News, Breitbart, or Breitbart.com) is an American far-right syndicated news, opinion, and commentary website founded in mid-2007 by American conservative commentator Andrew Breitbart. Its content has been described as misogynistic, xenophobic, and racist by academics and journalists. The site has published a number of conspiracy theories and intentionally misleading stories. Posts originating from the Breitbart News Facebook page are among the most widely shared political content on Facebook." Doug Weller  talk 16:52, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Don't get me wrong, I don't think the site's content is an improvement. But forking an encyclopedia — even if motivated by the desire to divert traffic — is hardly a reason to yank NPP/autopatrolled. I'm also skeptical that it's a reason to remove VTRS access, without any evidence that that access is being misused, though I do understand the reasoning behind it. That said, if Atsme has indeed been on an indefinite break since June, it would seem her VRT account will be disabled shortly for inactivity anyway. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 17:02, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Atsme is active. O3000, Ret. (talk) 17:08, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * On VRTS? GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 17:17, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Ahh, got an EC trying to clarify that I don't know about VRT activity. But she is active on the project despite the edit on her UTP saying she is on indefinite break. O3000, Ret. (talk) 17:21, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * For me, the crux of the matter is in the VRTS activity policy. The VRTS admins only select the VRTS agents that they have the utmost trust in to represent the Wikimedia projects. While Atsme met that requirement when she was granted the permission, is that still the case when she's the founder and key driving force of a forked project that actively disparages Wikipedia (a Wikimedia project)? This is different from holding the other advanced permissions she currently holds, because they don't have that same requirement of being trusted to represent Wikimedia projects. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:11, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I didn't know that forks included non-mainspace pages such as List of administrators/Timezones and a table of admin numbers (complete with table heading 'Average number of active English Wikipedia administrators per month (January 2001 – present)'. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 18:10, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Or that, for instance, User:Acroterion and User:331dot were Admins there. Doug Weller  talk 18:36, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That must be the other me(j/k). 331dot (talk) 18:48, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Wow, RfA must be a lot easier over there.  Acroterion   (talk)   23:41, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Ping Emufarmers and Matthewrb as the current English-speaking VRT admins, given VRT membership is discussed above. My $0.02 - as an OTRS admin from what feels like decades ago (probably is actually a decade ago now), potential removal is definitely something that would have been considered based on these facts back then, but would naturally be a judgement call as to whether removal is appropriate or not. Daniel (talk) 21:39, 6 December 2023 (UTC)


 * This entire discussion saddens me, but it doesn't surprise me. FYI, Justapedia supports 99% of Wikimedia Foundation projects, and that includes Commons, Phabricator (and when we can, we work with mediawiki techs), and other projects that are either dependent on or independent of the WMF. I don't know why there is even a discussion here about Commons or my work as a VRT volunteer, but quite frankly, what I do on Commons is not Wikipedia's concern. Commons is completely separate from Wikipeda, and Justapedia uses and contributes to Commons. Wikipedia does not have an exclusive. Perhaps the time has come for you to come to that realization. I have contributed over a decade of my time and efforts to help build Wikipedia, and while I may completely disagree with editors who use WP as a weapon to further their own agendas and biases, I have not broken any policies or guidelines relative to my work here as an editor, or NPP reviewer. Yes, there have been times that I was embarrassed by some of the criticism of WP launched by others, but the criticism was justified. What I consider even worse is the criticism of the WMF and Jimmy Wales by WP editors, as it brings to mind biting the hand that feeds you. As for proper attribution, I am not aware of any practicing copyright attorneys in this discussion, but be aware that our attorneys have already advised us that our method of attribution aligns with the licensing requirements of the WMF. As kindly pointed out, the link back to the article attributes the origins which provides access to the complete editing history including the psuedonyms/IP addresses etc. of whoever added the material, unless that material has been removed. If the material is no longer available, or has been deleted by WP, then those with a complaint about their material being missing resulting in it not being attributed properly need to take it up with the WMF. IOW, WP erased the attribution, we did not. Happy editing. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.2em 0.2em,#BFFF00 0.4em 0.4em 0.5em;color:#A2006D"> Atsme  💬 📧 22:39, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If the material is no longer available, or has been deleted by WP, then those with a complaint about their material being missing resulting in it not being attributed properly need to take it up with the WMF. I'm not sure that's the case, specifically for pages that have been deleted after Justapedia (or any other mirror or fork) has imported them. The Reusing Wikipedia content policy puts the requirements for demonstrating attribution on the part of the re-user, and gives three options for proper attribution on re-distribution; provide a hyperlink or URL (where possible) to the page you're re-using, or provide a hyperlink or URL (where possible) to an alternative stable online copy that conforms with the license, or to include a list of all of the authors of the original work. In this circumstance, it is no longer possible for Justapedia to provide a hyperlink to the original article, because it has been deleted, so in order for your site to be compliant it seems as though you must either provide a hyperlink to an alternative stable online copy that conforms to the license, or you must have a local copy of the list of original authors.
 * Could I suggest that you please re-check with your legal team on this specific set of circumstances, where a page that Justapedia has imported has since been deleted by Wikipedia and the attribution method you had previously chosen is no longer available, as it is an edge case that they or yourselves may not have considered? As I mentioned above, one other site that forks enwiki (EverybodyWiki) includes a local copy of an imported page's history on a separate namespace, to avoid the break in attribution issue where an imported page was deleted after it was imported. For everything else, I would agree that you are in compliance with the relevant policies surrounding content reuse, it's just this edge case that you might not have considered or been aware of. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:34, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Intellectual property attorney hat on. It cannot possibly be the case that making a legally sufficient copy of content on Wikipedia imposes upon the copier a permanent duty of continually checking as to whether Wikipedia has chosen to delete the original and its attribution. If this were the case, it would require even printed copies to be updated to reflect such changes, and even if the change was made decades later. I would submit that referring readers of the copy to Wikipedia remains sufficient even if Wikipedia deletes the content, because there are custodians of Wikipedia's data who are able to retrieve and provide the deleted data if needed. Intellectual property attorney hat off. BD2412  T 03:33, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not a lawyer but I agree with this interpretation; Wikipedia's own policies on forking and copyright also state that the copier has met their duty of care by providing a link to the original article, whether or not that article is still present or has been deleted. Since the WMF only owns copyright on the various logos around the website, the responsibility falls to the original authors if they feel that their work has not been properly attributed, and their grievance would necessarily have to be against the WMF, as they do continue to maintain the deleted content regardless of whether or not it's visible on the user-facing website. Duly signed, ⛵ <span style="color: white; font-family: Verdana; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(white, blue, navy, black)">WaltClipper - (talk)  13:45, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Since the WMF only owns copyright on the various logos around the website, the responsibility falls to the original authors if they feel that their work has not been properly attributed, and their grievance would necessarily have to be against the WMF, as they do continue to maintain the deleted content regardless of whether or not it's visible on the user-facing website. This much is clearly incorrect. It is the one making the copy who infringes copyright by making use of copyrighted material without permission. The grievance is against the infringing party, the one who made the unauthorised copy. But let's not get confused by copyright here. What we have here is licensed use. The issue is not copyright itself, but terms of a license. If the material is copied and used according to the terms of a license then all is well. If the terms of the license are not met then remedies exist or may be found in law. This is all hypothetical. The point BD2412T makes, however, is that if a copy was made according to license, and if the license is irrevocable, then what Wikipedia does with material cannot affect the licensed use.
 * Of course, the license is not quite irrevocable. It says: The licensor cannot revoke these freedoms as long as you follow the license terms. So it is irrevocable as long as (for instance) the licensee provides attribution, according to the licenser's terms. That the site owners have decided to rely on Wikipedia to maintain the attribution is a grey area, particularly considering the advice above from WP:CCI on how the license terms should be met. BD2412T says I would submit that referring readers of the copy to Wikipedia remains sufficient even if Wikipedia deletes the content. And that may be correct. But it may not be, and I do not see any prospect of this being taken to law to test that, for a whole bunch of reasons. The argument about printed copies is, I believe, quite different, because the spaghetti publishers I have seen who have printed Wikipedia's material merely credit Wikipedia, and not the authors, and so are already in breach of the license. You don't meet the license conditions for identification of the creator(s) of the Licensed Material by crediting Wikipedia. The CC-BY-SA license does not supersede an author's moral rights. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:36, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The grievance is the one making the copy who infringes copyright by making use of copyrighted material without permission. In the context of this discussion, my argument was assuming that a link has been provided to the original article, whether or not it has been deleted. The rationale I gave does not exist without that premise being in place. That said I will admit that despite my opinion and interpretation, determining whether or not the link is valid is indeed still an open legal question. Given such cases as Philpot v. Media Research Center there's absolutely no prediction about what courts would consider sufficient attribution for Creative Commons or if it's even a valid form of licensing. Duly signed, ⛵ <span style="color: white; font-family: Verdana; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(white, blue, navy, black)">WaltClipper - (talk)  17:41, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * it is no secret that Atsme and I tend to be polar opposites on a lot of things but CC by SA is what it is and while my political ideology is vastly different, well, again CC by SA. I don't see any evidence that her editing have changed to promote this, so I am unsure what the point of this being posted at AN of all places is.<span style="color: white; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(darkred, red, Firebrick, DarkGreen, Green, ForestGreen)">GRINCHIDICAE🎄 23:00, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Because it's highly effective advertising to disaffected editors on en.wiki. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:40, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Random two cents: (1) there seems to be no actual evidence that Atsme has vandalised Wikipedia by publishing "subpar articles" as suggested above. Without evidence this allegation goes nowhere. (2) Anyone unhappy with VRT team membership they should follow the instructions at Volunteer_Response_Team. Debates about VRT membership can't be resolved at this noticeboard. (3) People who fork Wikipedia articles are required to follow the attribution requirements, but they surely can't be expected to watch every single WP article forever and repeatedly update their attribution if the original source material is deleted or moved. Someone might perhaps email the WMF for a view, but resolution of this issue is off topic in a thread about one specific editor who contributes to both wikis. (4) More generally, why should we care if Atsme or anyone else also edits at some no-name wiki fork? If they're not doing any harm to en-WP then it doesn't seem like any of our business. -- Euryalus (talk) 23:36, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree entirely with Euryalus, just above me. If someone has any diffs of Atsme making bad edits here in order to damage en-Wiki's reputation, then please post those diffs. Otherwise, there is nothing to deal with here at AN. (And if you don't want anyone to fork your contributions here, don't hit the save button.) --Tryptofish (talk) 00:07, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * +1. I am also reminded of Veropedia, another unsuccessful fork where many admins and other people with higher permissions (more significant than VRT if you ask me) were involved. —Kusma (talk) 09:37, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with Atsme editing Wikipedia, so long as it is not in the political arena. My concern is only with VRT. I think she is a poor choice for VRT irrespective of Justapedia given her disdain for reliable sources and acceptance of poor sources. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:49, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * There are two very different issues being discussed here - whether User:Atsme should retain her permissions having founded a Wikipedia fork and whether that fork complies with copyright. I certainly do not agree with some of Atsme's political views, but I can see no behaviour that justifies removing any rights, and the right to fork is very important - it demonstrates that the Wikimedia Foundation does not own the content of this encyclopedia. On the copyright issue we should defer to our legal counsel, but I would say that this fork complies much better than some of the other forks that exist. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:54, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Where are the diff's showing Atsme violated editing policy? So far this seems like just opinion's so I'll offer mine barring evidence being presented. I don't think off-wiki activity should even come in to play unless it's egregious and there has to be some on-wiki evidence that Wikipedia is even being affected negatively. -- A Rose Wolf  19:35, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Clear WP:SNOW here, we can close this out, Atsme is fine. --GRuban (talk) 20:33, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @GRuban just checking, you’re happy about her having VRT? Doug Weller  talk 21:23, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm ecstatic about her having VRT. We have admins and arbs with Wikipediocracy accounts, after all. It is great that our shining lights recognize our flaws, and are not a monolithic hivemind. --GRuban (talk) 22:37, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @GRuban So far as I know, unless User:Atsme has edited recently, she hasn't used VRT for at least 15 months. Should someone have that right who isn't active? Doug Weller  talk 09:11, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Wait a minute. Is this about her not using VRT, or is it about her running a competing wiki? Is there a requirement for VRT use? Because if there wasn't, but suddenly one is being proposed, just for Atsme, because she has a branched wiki, that is starting to look pretty fishy. --GRuban (talk) 00:09, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment unless there is actual evidence of on-wiki COI activity and editing (no evidence has been provided), this thread should be closed. As far as I can tell Atsme hasn't actually done anything wrong. Polyamorph (talk) 09:24, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * There should be no sanction of an editor here for off-wiki activity and the right to create a fork of content is an essential aspect of Creative Commons and open source licenses. I think you (and GRuban's SNOW comment) are correct on that. There is no question of any editor sanction of Atsme. But there is an open question about VRT, and there is no unanimity on that one, and I cannot even see how the community can take a position on that. Can the community require VRT be withdrawn? I don't know. But should it be withdrawn?
 * On that last point, I agree with Doug Weller. If Atsme has the access but does not use it, and if the reason for that inactivity is because she made a POVFORK of the whole encyclopaedia and is busy with that, then I find it astounding that there is any question here. VRT should be withdrawn. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:42, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If it is true that Atsme has not been active on VRT for fifteen months then the permission should probably be withdrawn per Volunteer Response Team/Activity policy, but as the VRT applies to all WMF wikis then that is not a decision that can be taken by en-wiki alone. Go to Meta. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:03, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd go further. en-wiki as an entity has no particular role to play in the decision. People who happened to be en-wiki editors are welcome (and ecouraged) to share their individual views, but I don't think there is a formal role for en-wiki as an entity. S Philbrick  (Talk)  18:31, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I sincerely appreciate the feedback and the knowledgeable responses from my colleagues, despite the unfortunate attempts by my detractors to unjustly profile me as either untrustworthy or a detriment to the project, simply because I agree with some of the criticisms about WP articles, and decided to create the Justapedia Foundation and Justapedia. Try reading the criticisms that WP publishes about itself, and its own systemic biases. If you have time, take a look at what comes up in Google scholar about Wikipedia's systemic bias. I will just summarize my position with a quote from Wikimedia under the section Wikimedia stakeholders More generally speaking, Wikimedia stakeholders may also be part of the Wikimedia movement, i.e. readers of Wikimedia content, donors, schools, GLAM, similar-minded institutions, and companies co-operating with the Wikimedia Foundation or other Wikimedia organizations. Nowhere does it say stakeholders have to be like-minded. They say "similar-minded", and Justapedia fits that requirement, as do I in my position as an editor here, and as a VRT volunteer. And let's not forget the times when Wikipedia and Wikimedia have butted heads, which speaks much louder than anything I have ever done personally or in connection with Justapedia. Again, Justapedia supports the Wikimedia Foundation, and to this day, I continue to support the WMF movement as a productive volunteer here, at NPP, and at VRT. The same applies to JPF and JP per our participation at sister projects, Phabricator, Commons, and wherever else we feel our contributions are needed and appreciated. Happy editing! <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.2em 0.2em,#BFFF00 0.4em 0.4em 0.5em;color:#A2006D"> Atsme 💬 📧 19:51, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This thread should be closed. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:53, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 06:57, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Number of warnings
What is the maximum number of warnings a user can receive before facing a ban or block? A particular user (HistoricPilled) has accumulated more than six warnings within a week but continues to engage in edit wars and vandalize articles by adding unsourced information. Additionally, the user has removed these warnings from their talk page. Imperial [AFCND]  04:43, 10 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Signal the user to ANI, if they got six warnings in a week it would be good to have an admin take a look. There isn't a fixed number of warnings before a block, but if a user keeps ignoring warnings and behaving in a non-constructive way, you should definitely bring it to the attention of admins. Chaotıċ Enby   (t · c) 04:49, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This user is just mad and trying to make personal attacks, he's been vandalizing maratha pages and making fake articles HistoricPilled (talk) 05:20, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @ImperialAficionadoOne warning from a guy on my talk page has already reverted his own edit which was made by me go check himself Gama Wrestler's page talk and history. Also, it's my person talk page so I can always clear it whenever I want. HistoricPilled (talk) 05:21, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I haven't been warned by any admin yet @ImperialAficionadoKeep trying. HistoricPilled (talk) 05:25, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @HistoricPilled Warnings carry no extra weight if they are from an admin vs. any other user. Additionally, when you remove a warning from your user talk page, that is interpreted to be acknowledgment of the warning. —C.Fred (talk) 05:26, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The warning himself came from this vandalizer who's making this issue right here. I don't take him seriously at all. HistoricPilled (talk) 05:29, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Vandalism should be reverted. Thats all what I did. I am not only the one who warned you. Am I? Words such as "Keep trying" sounds like you are challenging about it?  Imperial  [AFCND]  05:29, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes I reverted your Vandalism which is why you seem to be mad and making personal attacks nothing else...6 times 😂😂😂😂😂 HistoricPilled (talk) 05:30, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @HistoricPilled @ImperialAficionado Diffs, please, both of you, for this alleged vandalism. Remember that calling a good faith edit vandalism can be viewed as a personal attack. —C.Fred (talk) 05:33, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I haven't made any personal attacks on you. The admins could make sure what really happened by checking our edit history aswell as the revisions of the articles such as the Battle of Balapur, the Nizam's Carnatic campaigns, and the Battle of Aror. @C.Fred, it would be helpful if you provide the assistance of a WP:MILHIST. Even though I am a member of it, I am sure that @HistoricPilled won't accept my advice because the user thinks that I have personal problems with him. It is clear from the statement "I don't take him seriously at all." Imperial  [AFCND]  05:37, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Both those Bajirao battles have already been talked about on talk page and I've not made any edits on them in 24 hours....Also, Battle of Aror was vandalized by you where you added a fake number different from the source which is also noticed on talk page. It was already solved and concluded on talk page and I didn't revert anything there from then. HistoricPilled (talk) 05:40, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * For battle of Aror, it wasn't a "fake number". See this discussion.  Imperial  [AFCND]  05:43, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, it's hard to take you serious when you claim I was warned 6 times on my talk page when in reality it only happened 2 times by random users and 1 of those already restored the edit I made on Gama's page. Go check talk and history. HistoricPilled (talk) 05:43, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Checking...
 * uw-unsourced2,, 25 Nov
 * uw-unsourced3, (admin), 28 Nov
 * uw-npov1,, 2 Dec
 * uw-vandalism2,, 6 Dec
 * uw-3rr, SKAG123, 6 Dec
 * uw-vandalism3, ImperialAficionado, 7 Dec
 * uw-vandalism4,, 7 Dec (warning not stricken, but user did self-revert their revert of HP)
 * So, seven six warnings from five  four different users, of whom one is an admin and two are  one is an experienced editor s . —C.Fred (talk) 05:50, 10 December 2023 (UTC), amended 05:53, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Vandalism mostly comes from him they're not particularly warnings. Reverts are normal. Also, I already mentioned the guy on my talk page who tried to warn me on Gama Wrestler's page himself returned to the edit I made. It's on the talk page. HistoricPilled (talk) 05:54, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @HistoricPilled Please provide a specific edit by ImperialAficionado that you are labeling as vandalism, or stop labeling his edits as such. —C.Fred (talk) 05:55, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This user has been making Personal attacks, his own edits are often controversial and reverted by different users many times. HistoricPilled (talk) 05:55, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Provide the evidence where I vandalised any article, where I added information without any sources, or I removed sourced information repeatedly. Nor I harrassed any user. Could you explain the reason why you called be a "clown" in this rev. Imperial  [AFCND]  06:00, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If you're going to attack my personal page multiple times, I'll definitely call you clown, just like I would do ang social media, I take it same as a dm. HistoricPilled (talk) 06:02, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Well you obviously haven't read WP:NPA Philipnelson99 (talk) 06:03, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This is an encyclopedia, not a "social" media site. Phil Bridger (talk) 07:48, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Battle of Aror - Here I restored a previous revision from a guy who made an edit without any reason or citation and removed an already existing text, this ImperialAficionado user reverted my revert when it was valid just because he feels uncomfortable with my edits. HistoricPilled (talk) 06:01, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The edit summary clearly says why they reverted... Philipnelson99 (talk) 06:04, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @HistoricPilled According to their edit summary, the revert was because the source did not support the claim. That is a good-faith, policy-based edit. —C.Fred (talk) 06:06, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @C.Fred apologies for the warning I did not strike. Philipnelson99 (talk) 06:01, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks @Philipnelson99 HistoricPilled (talk) 06:02, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @C.Fred, what will be the conclusion? @HistoricPilled have made an allegation aganist me, even claiming I manipulated the source Imperial  [AFCND]  06:30, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Just like you made allegations against me while spamming my personal page for no reason. A lot of time I add source to my edit and you claim I just make random edits unsourced. HistoricPilled (talk) 06:33, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Unsourced addition on Battle of Aror
 * 1.) Revision as of 20:32, 9 December 2023
 * Removal of cited information on Battle of Aror
 * 1.) Revision as of 12:57, 6 December 2023
 * Removal of cited information on Battle of Balapur
 * 1.) Revision as of 17:45, 7 December 2023
 * 2.) Revision as of 16:18, 7 December 2023
 * 3.) Revision as of 14:59, 7 December 2023
 * Removal of cited information on Nizam's Carnatic campaigns
 * 1.) Revision as of 17:48, 7 December 2023
 * 2.) Revision as of 15:41, 7 December 2023
 * 3.) Revision as of 14:22, 7 December 2023
 * note: This articles are those which are on my watchlist. Other editors who warned @HistoricPilled may have noticed his edits on other articles. Imperial  [AFCND]  06:45, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I already mentioned those 2 Bajirao related articles which you posted of from 4 days from now and didn't make edit on them for more a very long duration, also I mentioned my reasons and even made a talk comment. HistoricPilled (talk) 06:49, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @HistoricPilled, How can you say that I was manipulating the facts where I provided the source? I read many other sources to conclude that it wasn't 2,000, but 20,000. For evidence, read page number 5 of the book :The Cambridge History Of India,. Vol. III Imperial  [AFCND]  06:33, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Please stop trying to "own" each other, and either provide diffs to support the accusations you're making or quit wasting everybody's time by making them read gigantic walls of meaningless text. Nobody is impressed by this argument. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 06:34, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @JPxG, completely agree. I have provided diffs above. And will there be any action for the harrassment he made aganist me? Imperial  [AFCND]  06:47, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Harassment I made against you? You're the one trying to spam my talk page and trying to personally target me. Keep making fake harrasment allegations and playing victim card. HistoricPilled (talk) 06:51, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It's very evident that you feel highly insecure. HistoricPilled (talk) 06:34, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Do not make any more comments like this. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 06:37, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Anyways, I'll leave it to the mods. I will still continue editing as long I am here and try to follow rules as much I can for some reason this guy thinks he's admin himself. HistoricPilled (talk) 06:37, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

User keeps on posting to my talk page about a resolved issue. I've told him to stop and he refuses.
has now posted to my talk three two times after I told him to stop. Please make him leave me alone. ―Justin ( koa v f ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 15:59, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

This is at best a half truth. My last post on his page made it perfectly clear I was dropping the matter because it had been resolved but I was responding to his unnecessary rudeness with a warning that any repeat and he would be reported (he is already partially blocked for rudeness and trolling). The points I made were perfectly fair and valid and made in a perfectly reasonable way. However, his rudeness was/is not acceptable and I felt perfectly within my rights to point that out. Reporting me after he'd been told he might be reported seems a very childish response.Neilinabbey (talk) 16:12, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've begun a discussion at the page, you're both having a content dispute over. GoodDay (talk) 16:16, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If he tells you to stop posting on his talkpage, you are to stop. You don't get to get one last word in or "point out his rudeness" you stop posting on his talkpage. Don't do it again. 2603:7000:CF0:9E10:ACBC:5B6E:EB88:D2F2 (talk) 02:48, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Review of a range block
I've just issued a range block (or rather, expanded a page-specific range block to a site-wide range block) against Special:Contributions/2001:8F8:173C:0:0:0:0:0/46 because of the disruption documented at Sockpuppet investigations/Becausewhynothuh? (account creation included in case they try to make accounts again). None of the edits lately seem to be constructive, but since I know little about collateral damage etc. I'd like more experienced administrators to review this one, and to modify if necessary. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:14, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Looks fine to me, definitely a justified block. From checkuser, the IP edits since about the start of November are pretty much all the same person. There are a handful of unrelated accounts using the range but your settings won't prevent them from editing. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:53, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

General Discussion
As the dust settles from, something has been nagging at me: There are now about 1,000 blocks and 1,000 deletions, plus some other admin actions, that were performed in violation of an ArbComBan. To my knowledge, this is the first time this has happened in the modern era of Wikipedia adminning (i.e. since c. 2012). Now, editors have broad discretion to revert actions made in violation of a ban, and WP:RAAA would not apply here for multiple reasons, but in this case most actions will be trivially valid, anti-vandalism and -spam actions. But not all of them. Some will be judgment-calls, even tough ones, where we deferred to the discretion of a fellow admin, and where that discretion should maybe now be reviewed.

Should there be some kind of review, particularly of the blocks? I could put together a list of outstanding tempblocks and p-blocks, plus indefs of any established users, and admins could reblock in cases where we're willing to assume responsibility. Maybe that's too much, and I'm aware of the WP:DENY aspect here, but at the same time, if I got blocked and then found out the blocking admin was a sock, I'd be pretty damn pissed, and I think we owe it to those people to at least take a look at whether the blocks were any good. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 17:05, 4 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Are there any actions that stand out to be particularly egregious after a cursory glance?  The Night Watch     (talk)   17:53, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Probably, most of the admin actions she did are ones that no admin would have declined. Such actions should be left alone.
 * You probably won't get admins to mass-review her actions. Even her deletions, which non-admins can't.
 * If you believe any specific action she did was incorrect, feel free to request admin review.
 * Any admin may undo her actions without it being wheel-warring.
 * Animal lover &#124;666&#124; 18:36, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Reblocking will just give the user a longer block log, which they might not appreciate. I think it would be better to just list the blocks on a page somewhere (akin to a CCI), and have admins tick "yes, reviewed, I would have made that block". The willingness to assume bad faith shown in this thread suggests that yes, there might be some blocks which need to be undone. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 21:05, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Generally agree with above that we should 1) apply the reasonable admin standard and 2) not change blocks or other actions unless they don't meet that standard, which I think leads to 3) probably should only list the "currently active" things, whether deletion, block, or protection (or other action). WP:VOLUNTEER as to the utility/necessity of such work. Izno (talk) 22:27, 4 November 2023 (UTC)


 * If someone wants to do the hard work of going through 2,000 actions and bring them up for community review, I guess I can't stop them. But I don't think its necessary. The right thing is to do what we would do with any action committed by an admin removed for cause: review it when it comes up, and add that admin's conduct as a factor to be weighed. For example, ArbCom already does that. We occasionally get appeals from users who were blocked by now banned or otherwise disgraced users. We don't automatically undo the block because of who made it. But we do investigate more deeply than we usually would into whether the block was right in the first place. I would be opposed to unblocking or reblocking accounts sua sponte. For unblocking, we don't allow third party unblocks. Why unblock an account banned 5 years ago if the user is long gone? For reblocking, not only does that consideration apply, but further, reblocking after a long time is inadvisable because you weren't there when the inciting incident happened, and thus might miss something. That would also serve to obfuscate who got blocked by Lourdes in the first place, which might make undoing a bad Lourdes block harder. <b style="color:#6a1f7f">CaptainEek</b> <i style="font-size:82%; color:#a479e5">Edits Ho Cap'n!</i>⚓ 22:36, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know how this slipped through my radar, but that is an absolutely stunning turn of events. My jaw literally dropped reading that diff. It might be worth looking through anything active, but that is a lot of work that might not have much benefit. If there was ever consensus to undo actions en masse, bot ops with admin bots (like myself) could be pinged/contacted to assist. -- The SandDoctor Talk 23:15, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Isn't this the posterboy for a legitimate WP:XRV use? <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"> jp × g 🗯️</b> 23:54, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I would oppose a blanket reversal (which I don't think anyone has suggested yet, but it seems inevitable) but don't have an issue with more contentious blocks being listed for review. If someone is willing to do the excruciatingly boring work of compiling those, they have my thanks in advance. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't envy the work. This is like when a crooked cop gets caught and then all of the arrests the cop made need to be looked at. Lightburst (talk) 00:50, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't envy the work, and I've been involved in some of these mass review projects, from GNIS (still ongoing) to the one with all of the sportspeople. This seems worse.  CaptainEek, I have sympathies for someone who might have been illegitimately blocked and as a result just walked away thinking that Wikipedia was run by idiots.  We cannot necessarily rely on people coming to complain as a driving force.  We should at least look.  And we should differentiate between blocks to enforce bans (Are there even any?) and blocks that are not part of banning.  Uncle G (talk) 03:35, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Marking this with future timestamp (2 weeks) to stop bot from automatically archiving sections that still needs actions. <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 16:43, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that anyone who wants to say anything on the blocks has more or less done so. Are there any other things we need to review? Fermiboson (talk) 18:36, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Three blocks that still have "unfinished business" (Darshan Kavadi, Omer123hussain and Timfoley50). <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 03:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Here's my blessing on whatever is needed for the Foley potential unblock. They asked me to stay off their page and happy to oblige while simultaneously not obstructing you or any other admin @OhanaUnited Star   Mississippi  03:47, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

AN/I boards
As Lourdes herself noted, comments given on AN/I also carry admin authority, and randomly scrolling through archives I do see that she was quite active in terms of participating in discussions, threatening (or recommending) admin actions, or closing threads and sending people elsewhere. Is there a point in looking at those actions as well? Fermiboson (talk) 21:54, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

IP Blocks to review
These are the IP blocks made by Lourdes that are still active as of today. I suggest that an admin review each one and decide if it should be removed or kept (I've done some already). This is a very small subset of the above. There were no indefinite IP blocks. — xaosflux  Talk 00:03, 5 November 2023 (UTC)


 * For anyone interested, here are the username blocks (most are indef): Special:PermaLink/1183546654. — xaosflux  Talk 00:09, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I looked at two random username blocks. I suppose that a reasonably thorough administrator would not overlook deleting the page User:Journal of BIoresources and Bioproducts (obvious copyvio etc.) when blocking for the very reason of creating such pages. There may be omissions of this type or of some other type. —Alalch E. 00:34, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Blocks of users with 100+ edits
Without prejudice against looking at the full ~900 account blocks, I've triaged this to a list of users with at least 100 edits. My reasoning is that blocks of low-editcount users are much more likely to be routine vandal/spam blocks, and that a brand-new editor who was wrongly blocked will probably have either just created a new account, WP:SOCK be damned, or been scared away for good. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 00:48, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Darshan Kavadi

 * I would say that the block on User:Darshan Kavadi (DK) deserves a second look (and possibly reversed for being a bad block). DK was first warned of their disruptive editing behaviour on July 26. DK disengaged and edited other articles on August 1. No other edits were made by DK after August 2. ANI report was filed on August 8 but closed because Lourdes went straight for indef block on first instance. The appearance of non-communication by DK was a self-fulfilling prophecy because DK never had a chance to reply (or saw it too late). It's almost like DK was punished for disengaging from the disputed page in question. No admin would have issued a indef block on a single warning on an account who hasn't edited for a week, which makes Lourdes's actions punitive instead of preventative. <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 05:10, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Plus, Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1136 was in the area of single-purpose account Indian promotional editing, which Wifione should not have been touching at all. Uncle G (talk) 05:45, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Shall we unblock this account as time served and remind them about WP:ROPE? <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 16:50, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Unblocked with a stern warning for last chance and communication expectation. <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 20:18, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

User:Chuachenchie

 * Here's another questionable block. User:Chuachenchie has been editing since November 2020 and had 9k edits. Edits are a mixture of bad (OR, BLP) and good (ITN noms). Lourdes once again went right to indef block and not start off with short blocks and escalate from there. Editor remains active on zh.wp. <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 05:17, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * That block was made as a result of this report. That editor managed to make over 9k edits without once talking to anybody or even leaving an edit summary. Communicating with other editors isn't really optional. Lourdes did leave a warning, which was ignored, and there were numerous previous attempts by other people to talk to this editor, which were also ignored. The block doesn't look unreasonable.  Hut 8.5  14:33, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The fact that Lourdes went for an indef block as the first block shows a series of trigger-happy blocks that dish out maximum sentence from the get-go (at least I wouldn't in that circumstance). <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 19:06, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * For a lack of communication I would generally go with an indef since editors who don't communicate will usually ignore a short term block - an indefinite block forces communication. I don't really see an indef as a maximum sentence here, just "blocked until they communicate". Galobtter (talk) 04:33, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Has anyone tried contacting them on zhwiki in Chinese? I may be able to if someone tells me what to say. As far as I can tell the issue here is language proficiency and CIR, which can be discussed with the editor. Fermiboson (talk) 22:40, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, looking at their edits on zhwiki, they have no edits outside of template and mainspace there either.. <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x Deadbeef →∞ (talk to me) 17:10, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I warned them with on zhwiki. Got ignored there too. <span style="font-family:system-ui,Inter,-apple-system,sans-serif;background-color:#f3f3fe;padding:2px 5px;border-radius:3px;white-space:nowrap">NM  02:04, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @OhanaUnited, an indef for refusing to communicate is not a "maximum sentence". It's IMO a completely reasonable way to require communication commence rather than simply allowing someone to wait it out. An indef can be lifted five minutes later by any admin. Many admins are reluctant to lift a timed block, so an indef can actually be much shorter. All it takes is convincing someone the person is able and sincerely willling to address the issue. Valereee (talk) 11:19, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This exercise is to review the indef-trigger-happiness by Loudres. We already have two indef-block accounts overturned by other admins (and another two accounts that has the potential to be overturned) because the block length is not in proportion to the severity. And in my opinion, this is more borderline than those cases. But this user continues to edit in zh.wp, which makes a stronger case that we should review the possibility to reattract this editor back into the en.wp project (unlike other dormant accounts) with a clear explanation of communication expectation by the community before being unblocked. <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 17:03, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd be willing to consider a conditional unblock: the editor agrees to respond to messages on their user talk (which they've never done, not even once, literally zero edits to any talk page including their own, and if I'm reading it right, has also never done on zh.wiki) and to start using edit summaries (which they've done once in 9000+ edits). Valereee (talk) 10:41, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I've left a message at their talk. Valereee (talk) 10:51, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I am the original author of the ANI discussion. Just for the record, the editor still continues to exhibit the exact same behavior (OR, BLP, no edit summary, never respond to TP messages) on zhwiki that should have got them banned there a long time ago. <span style="font-family:system-ui,Inter,-apple-system,sans-serif;background-color:#f3f3fe;padding:2px 5px;border-radius:3px;white-space:nowrap">NM 02:10, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Omer123hussain

 * I made the report on that led to the block above. I think it's justified; there's serious OR issues there; but nobody else seems to want to engage with it. I will not be taking any admin action, though I'm not necessarily capital-I Involved. Vanamonde (Talk) 05:38, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I saw that ANI report and didn't have time to look into it, but I was glad someone did and took action (those kind of ANI reports get very little attention). I checked Talk:Hyderabad which Lourdes linked to and Omer123hussain's use of a 100 year old source and simple refusal to provide the quote from the source that supports their material looks very problematic. I can look into this more and take over the block if needed, but I don't think this block should be overturned simply because of the situation with Lourdes.
 * It seems these block reviews are less "that was a bad block" but more some admins think Lourdes should've been more lenient, 🤷🏾‍♀️. Galobtter (talk) 04:38, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the block needs to be looked at. I've raised it with Omer123hussain and I'll see if the is an option that doesn't involve going straight to an indefinite ban from mainspace. I agree that there is an issue with their editing, but with 9000+ edits and multiple GAs I'd like to look for an alternative solution. - Bilby (talk) 05:22, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, Lourdes was Wifione and per Wifione's Arbitration Committee restrictions should not have been involving xyrself in this at all. They were Indian topics and at least one was a biography of a living Indian person.  This was most definitely bad.  Uncle G (talk) 11:43, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * , I believe what is saying is that the block stands on its merits. We're not planning (I assume) to revert every one of Lourdes's ~24k contributions; by the same logic we shouldn't reverse a block that another admin endorses. Your logic is applicable to any block Lourdes made, including the obvious vandals, because Wifione didn't have any restrictions that were ARBIPA-wide; just Indian BLPs and educational institutions. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:01, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
 * No, it clearly only extends to topic that Wifione was prohibited from, not any blocks. This block is squarely an administrative action in the prohibited topic area.  At least one of the articles in the complaint about Omer123hussain was a biography of a living Indian person, and as it was about more than the specific edits cited but about Omer123hussain's editing history in general, which extends to a lot of India-related stuff, that would have likely touched upon more prohibited Indian topics.  Lourdes should never have touched this.  Xe was prohibited from it as an editor, let alone as an administrator.  Uncle G (talk) 21:28, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Ptb1997

 * I'm on the fence about . As is sadly often the case when an admin places a block "Until user resolves issue X", the implied promise there hasn't been upheld in subsequent unblock proceedings. Sadly the accept/decline-focused nature of unblock requests leads to a lot of situations like this, where a user has said most of what they need to say but maybe needs to go into a bit more detail, and instead just gets declined on with little explanation. So with all that in mind I'd tend toward an unblock, with a warning about communication. However, there's also the matter of, their sock. Evading a block imposed by someone who was in turn evading a ban is not something that WP:SOCK as a policy has ever contemplated, but either way, first offense for socking by an otherwise constructive user is normally 1-4 weeks, so I think commuting to time served, with warnings about communication and socking, would still be reasonable. Or at least I've mostly convinced myself of that in the course of writing this comment. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 06:24, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Personally, I'm in favour of forgiving the sockpuppetry (which was also handled bureaucratically, with its edits reverted because it was a sockpuppet), unblocking, with a statement that the community expects Special:Diff/1176584689 to be made good on, and will be found a more welcoming place for editors who talk to other editors. Especially as the warnings going back "8 years" turn out to be disambiguation 'bots, bracket 'bots, people talking about where punctuation goes in lists, why not to boldface things, birthdates in biographies, and which sportsperson gets player statistics.  Only 7 of the warnings/requests were over the whole of 2023, and 3 of those were 'bots.  And clearly the accountholder does communicate on occasion: Special:Diff/841858412.  Hence why I think that it was a trigger-happy block.  Uncle G (talk) 08:50, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This seems a case of someone who genuinely wants to contribute but made some communication errors. I'd favour unblocking, at least as a trial. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:35, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with Espresso Addict. I think we can unblock and keep an eye. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 06:52, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Unblocked with warnings for non-communication and sockpuppetry. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 16:01, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Yafie Achmad Raihan

 * I am involved with this in the sense that I raised the initial discussion about this user. Luck has it that they have just requested an unblock on promise that they will not do any more wrong page moves. There is something weird with their usage of the unblock template so it may not have turned up on any admin's radar yet. – robertsky (talk) 16:22, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The problem was that it was in a &lt;nowiki&gt; section. Animal lover &#124;666&#124; 19:20, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Restricting someone editing from article space just because they messed up on moving articles appear to be unproportional response. This is another case of using the sledgehammer-size block on something minor. Could have simply impose a "don't do any more moves or you will be blocked" warning. <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 19:20, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The block served its purpose; the editor has acknowledged it and promises to avoid the disputed behavior. I'll unblock. Mackensen (talk) 20:03, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I realise I'm not an admin, but would it be of help if I was the one to go through the 900+ other account bans and raise anything that I find here? I want to help to clean up the mess in any way possible. Fermiboson (talk) 19:11, 8 November 2023 (UTC)


 * @Fermiboson Yes please. That will be appreciated. Most of the activities that resulted in blocks can be viewed by anyone. It'll benefit from more lights shining onto this issue. <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 00:40, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Blocked accounts with 100- edits
A non-admin review of the rest of the blocks which could potentially be mistakes. The log has been reviewed up to the date of 19 March 2019. There are also a number of promotional userspaces which were not deleted, which I have CSD tagged on my own.

Anything beyond that is probably very, very moot. Fermiboson (talk) 10:41, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't see how counts as an attack page or is a negative unsourced BLP. Perhaps I'm missing some context here, though I'm also not sure if this user should be unblocked. <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x Deadbeef →∞ (talk to me) 07:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I wouldn't have deleted that as a G10 either. That said, it appears to be a hoax (unless anyone else can find evidence of a landscape architect named Donald J. Guest), and with the account's only other edit being this, I'd say it'd be best to let sleeping dogs lie at this point. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:08, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't have deleted it G10, but I see what Lourdes meant in terms of the tone of the second paragraph. I sometimes delete things G11/G10 where there's a mix of adulation with "struggled with drug abuse"/similar without any reliable sources. Espresso Addict (talk) 22:53, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This may be borderline on the attack aspect, but it's very clearly not a serious attempt at an encyclopedia article; it's a joke at best and is probably trolling. I might not have blocked immediately, but I'd have given a 4im warning at the very least. There are multiple real-world people named Donald Guest, FWIW. I would not reverse this block. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:00, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * +1, not an obvious attack page afaics; block can stand. Lectonar (talk) 12:40, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

The deleted edit, from 18 October, is basically identical to User:Thegreatbooboo!/sandbox. I don't understand why Lourdes blocked more than three days after the last edits, but the account is obviously WP:DISRUPTONLY and there'd be no benefit to unblocking. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:15, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I have deleted the sandbox too; block can stand. Lectonar (talk) 12:41, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

The account's sole comment can be read here (it was just caught up in oversight collateral): Support Clearly a bad actor bad faith etc. Does this ring any bells in terms of sockpuppetry? Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:25, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd say almost definitely. I've done a CU and it's exclusively on proxies with another single edit account that's been blocked by another admin. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Endorse, received email harassment from the account. Not sure if that appears in the CU logs, but the block is good. Jip Orlando (talk) 15:40, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

That's where three single-purpose accounts intersect, only one of which was blocked. The second is named after the article subject, and is a very clear conflict of interest editor. The third is a simple partial-blanking vandal. There's an acknowledgement of multiple accounts on one of the first two's user talk page. Draft:Himalaya Jet is a different situation, and clearly the single-purpose account that did it, taking over almost immediately (which is highly suspect), is far more experienced with editing a wiki. The edit summary (non-)usage is very different, too. A cynic would no doubt say, given how quickly the second single-purpose account took over, that someone else picked up the undisclosed paid editing gig. &#9786; Uncle G (talk) 21:23, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

This might well be one for the Project:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. This is one of those what-you-are-saying-about-me-without-any-sources-is-wrong-but-I-cannot-edit-a-wiki-for-toffee situations. The article discusses 2020 and one of its only two sources pre-dates that by quarter of a century. It's also one of those which-band-members-are-the-"real"-band situations. &#9786; Clearly the account is named after the band. We should regard this as an attempt to challenge unverifiable content, for which the rationale on User talk:Wfynde should not be overlooked, and the onus is on the people wanting to claim events happening in 2020 to provide some actual sources from the current century. Uncle G (talk) 21:53, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. While I stand by my initial block and don't think he'll be a net positive, I reiterate what I said then, that I welcomed any additional input. If editors, admin or otherwise, feel it should be lifted, that's fine with me especially with so much time passed. That talk page got unecessarily ugly and I'm not going to engage with Foley directly as he asked me to stay off his Talk, and I'm happy to respect that. His immolation was a good example of why it's hard for editors to work in areas with which they have a COI. Star  Mississippi  14:13, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I find BrownHairedGirl (BHG)'s initial complaint on ANI that led to Timfoley50's block flawed at best, disinformation and misleading at worst. So many things were wrong in the initial report (characterizing someone as SPA, making it sound like someone with COI didn't declare), spinning "part truth" into a narrative that suits her goal (suggesting that Tim was forumshopping when it was spread out over 5 years) or coming up with her own metrics about talk page discussion length which is not backed by any policy (very similar to ArbCom's portal case). IMO this looks like a bad newbie-biting block. <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 14:54, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * My first-impression 0.2c is that, while the editor in question is clearly incivil, the BDP issue could very much hvae been resolved with methods other than a block. No comments or opinions on BHG's behaviour, and I haven't delved into the content dispute itself. Is reopening the AN/I thread a good idea? My main concern here in the context of this mass review is the fact that Lourdes stepped in in the middle and cut short a developing AN/I discussion, even if there is a case for NLT, and had Lourdes not done that AN/I may have reached a different conclusion. Fermiboson (talk) 15:14, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Having seen no end of this sort of stuff over the years, that has escalated to Arbitration, full-blown user RFCs, and banning discussions, this does seem to have all of the makings of yet more of the same, and I echo Star Mississippi's prediction that this will not go well. Would Star Mississippi's block have been overturned had discussion progressed further?  It possibly would have, although that's not a certainty.  There's not much to fault about Star Mississippi's offer at the end of Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1132 and it might have been taken up. Wifione/Lourdes's legal threat block did rather curtail that possibility.  I agree with you that it's a bit borderline.  I don't think that we need to re-open AN/I, though.  After all, here is the Administrators' Noticeboard.  &#9786; Uncle G (talk) 20:22, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm probably not going to have much on wiki time this week so if you (collectively: @Fermiboson @OhanaUnited @Uncle G) think an unblock is the best way forward, feel free to do so. I'm never attached to blocks should they no longer prove necessary. Whether it needs to be here & ANI, I agree with UncleG. I feel like it can be handled here after or in conjunction with extending an offer of unblock to Timfoley50 and semi independent of the Lourdes block since mine was the basis. Star   Mississippi  03:28, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
 * What about status quo ante? We can restore TP access, and if the user continues down the path they are continuing down, we can reblock per NLT or civility; and if they don't, we continue the conversation as a standard unblock appeal. If they don't say anything, they don't say anything. Fermiboson (talk) 12:47, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I suggest to leave a note on Timfoley50's user talk page to see if we can reconcile and move beyond that. <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 18:19, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I've left a message on his usertalk and lifted the block on editing his usertalk page so that he can participate in the discussion. <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 20:36, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

There are warnings on this user's talk page, albeit relating to edit warring not incivility (which is what the block was for). The incivility in question was very mild, so I agree it should have been met with a (further) warning instead of a block. However it's from so long ago that I suspect their interest in Wikipedia has long since waned. If they request an unblock I think it would be looked upon favourably but I don't see much merit in unblocking an account that's going to remain dormant anyway. <b style="color:#98F">W</b><b style="color:#97E">a</b><b style="color:#86D">g</b><b style="color:#75C">ge</b><b style="color:#83C">r</b><b  style="color:#728">s</b><small  style="color:#080">TALK  11:24, 14 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Well, the account is a suspected sock, which would make an normal unblock moot. – robertsky (talk) 15:01, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Duplicate, biased, false article prevented from editing.
This article is prevented from editing "to prevent vandalism".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_permit_regime_in_the_Gaza_Strip

This article is a duplicate article as this one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_workers_in_Israel

The first article should be deleted since it's a duplicate and extremely biased. Gmanley253 (talk) 16:42, 11 December 2023 (UTC)


 * WP:ARBECR. Non EC editors may use talk pages to make edit requests, that's it. No standing here. Selfstudier (talk) 16:48, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * (after edit conflict)You wouldn't be able to edit it anyway, because the whole subject area is such that you would require 500 edits and a month's service. You have one edit and a few minutes' service. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:53, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

BanEX for potential spam
Can I ask for clarification about the BANEX policy for potenial spam? Example re: User:Joelphotofix (owner of Photofix). One of many diff Light show (talk) 00:00, 10 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Can you clarify your issue with me? 94.10.15.143 (talk) 00:15, 10 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Spam has always been an issue on WP. The article about the policy should help. Light show (talk) 01:15, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * , BANEX only allows for the reversal of "obvious vandalism" - spam does not fall into that category. When in doubt, just don't edit. Primefac (talk) 09:51, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clarifying. However, my reading of BANEX states it includes reverting obvious vandalism . . . or obvious violations  of WP policies. Per image use policies, "for images considered self-promotion,". . . "the Wikipedia community has repeatedly reached consensus to delete such images."
 * Although has used or uses his self-description (with his business logo,) image descriptions, and change summaries, in a way that would imply self-promotion, maybe some admin should warn him about such policies. The change I diffed came to my attention since Hal Linden is on my watchlist. Light show (talk) 19:23, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Is that better? Removed logo
 * i. Really not interested in self promotion or spamm. Get a life. ing Joelphotofix (talk) 20:12, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "Get a life" is a personal attack, and as such a violation of WP:NPA. Please strike it out. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * BANEX says "Reverting obvious vandalism (such as page content being replaced by obscenities) or obvious violations of the policy about biographies of living persons." So the only exceptions are obvious vandalism and obvious BLP violations - nothing about general obvious violations of "WP policies". Seconding Primefac's comment about "When in doubt, just don't edit." Galobtter (talk) 00:57, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * BANEX goes on to say "cases in which no reasonable person could disagree". Primefac and Galobtter are both rather reasonable persons. A good rule of thumb about BANEX is that if you have to ask if an edit is allowed, it's probably not. Reporting the issue here was probably a better approach regardless. Anyway, I don't think these edits are blatantly promotional: the Flickr account these photos come from is titled "John Mathew Smith & www.celebrity-photos.com" and Joelphotofix is referencing that in their upload summaries, which I think the form suggests to do but it's been a while since I've uploaded an image. Joelphotofix asked a couple years back for advice on properly contributing photos to Wikipedia and seems to have been following that advice. Yes they own a photo restoration business but their intent here seems to be to contribute to Wikipedia, not to promote their business (at least not primarily). Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:08, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

INNACURATE AND HURTFUL/FALSE INFORMATION
This is Our business and not updated by us - but by a racist hurtful person. If you want to have facts about our school - fine - but the information contained is not factual and was not placed there by anyone affiliated with the school. We have many families from all different backgrounds and the information does not represent our institution

This is libel 64.203.186.69 (talk) 18:43, 7 December 2023 (UTC)


 * For reference:  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) 18:50, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * it's not libel, it's just adding what sources say. See NPOV, or possibly, in this case, COI. Babysharkboss2 was here!!  ( Talk to me ) ( Waif Me! ) 13:58, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * No one edits the articles affiliated with them or their businesses. That's the point. Wikipedia articles are written from a neutral point of view. Please raise your concerns at Talk:Liberty Christian Academy. Folly Mox (talk) 18:51, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 64.203.186.69], please be careful using terms such as libel. See WP:NLT. If you believe the information in the article does not reflect what the citations claim, or if you believe the citations do not meet Wikipedia's definition of reliable sources (WP:RS), you definitely need to specifically state that on the article's talk page. --Yamla (talk) 18:56, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The third paragraph of the "History" section looks somewhat irrelevant to this school, but everything before that appears to be sourced. I'm not sure why the OP is massively concerned, to be honest, because it clear states that this was a segregation school that became one of the first to not segregate.  That is surely a positive. Black Kite (talk) 19:09, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll concur with the editors above. I see nothing hurtful, inaccurate or false data. Reconciling history is sometimes painful when it is ignored for a long time. This is why Wikipedia draws on WP:Reliable sources, not a connected person's emotional reaction. If wikipedians had found any material which WAS placed there by anyone associated with the school, we likely would have removed it and sanctioned the contributor for undisclosed connected editing. BusterD (talk) 19:17, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Well yeah, but having the segregation school stuff included at all is probably a concern from where they're sitting. What perhaps could be done is expanding the history section with more content on other stuff. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:35, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I note they removed "Lynchburg" from their name, good call IMO. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:39, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Why is that a "good call"? Buffs (talk) 18:46, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Any information that could be construed as hurtful is clearly marked as history, and supported by independent reliable sources. If you wish to add some more content about the school as it is now (also supported by independent reliable sources) then please do so, or, if you work for the school, put your proposed changes at Talk:Liberty Christian Academy, but don't try to rewrite history. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:28, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The reality of human history is complex. It is full of every emotion known to us. Sometimes it can hurt to know the truth. What I could say to the IP as far as Wikipedia is concerned would look a lot like the editors above my post. We present what is in reliable independent sources. What I would say about their feelings is to understand that they are only in control of their actions right now. We all have a choice about how we live and our interactions with other humans today. So be the best version of you and nothing else really matters. -- A Rose Wolf  19:33, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

People have been trying to excise any whiff of the word "segregation" from the article for a decade. And "FALSE INFORMATION BY HACKERS" isn't even the worst edit summary. In Special:Diff/550418204 in 2013 someone made the spurious claim that a book was behind a paywall, so couldn't be used to support article content, and the word "segregation" disappeared then, too. Several of the IP addresses such as geolocate to the institution next door. And the single-purpose accounts have made some utterly specious edits over the years such as Special:Diff/804557717 removing a pronunciation guide because the International Phonetic Alphabet, of all things, is somehow designed for the sole purpose of insulting a relative of the school's founder. Uncle G (talk) 19:30, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've taken the opportunity to add Shared IP edu template to identify the IP to later editors. As it turns out, the ip was registered to the university and not the academy. BusterD (talk) 19:35, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * With that history, wouldn't an indefinite semi-protection be justified? It's infrequent enough that a definite-length protection would be just waited out, and practically every IP edit to the page (especially in the past year and change) has been revisionist. —<i style="color: #1E90FF;">Jéské Couriano</i> v^&lowbar;^v  Source assessment notes 19:38, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Probably. I've got it on my watchlist now, so if no one acts and it gets "fixed" again I will protect. Primefac (talk) 19:42, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The sad thing is that had editors used Downland's 2015 book more, instead of Downlond's 2007 doctoral thesis, there wouldn't have been so much fuss for 10 years. Downland does not actually paint things as one-sidedly as our article does.  And there's at least a UCP book by professor Andrew Hartman that supports a more two-sided analysis here, as well, and probably others too.  So it does seem to be in actual need of some fixing, albeit not of the section-blanking-vandalism form. Once again people who can only vandalize but who cannot write perpetuate a problem and don't actually fix it.  And these are people going to a university! Uncle G (talk) 20:36, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "OUR business"? Might be these are the people who work at the school, not merely attend. BusterD (talk) 23:59, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm not seeing anything here that is explicitly wrong (NPOV is not wrong in any manner with respect to content), however, I think it's too heavily weighted on its segregationist past: 8 of 10 sentences regarding the school's history cover this topic. While contentious and it should be discussed in the article, I would encourage the OP of this thread to add to the content. On the flip side, some of this could be condensed without losing any significant information.
 * If the OP has specific examples of something that is "hateful" or "false" information, please post here and we can discuss. Buffs (talk) 18:44, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Mis-click by admin Shirt58 has restored deleted history of article Storybooth and they are not sure what should be done next
Good morning (9:30 am or so UTC) all,

, who has been described as someone who decided to take time from their busy admin duties to come to AfD themself, but also self-identified as a Wikpedidians who are a absent-minded creature


 * clicked on Storybooth just to look at its revision history and thought that it he was just looking at the page history
 * went off on a bicycle ride (Surly Disk Trucker with the standard wired disk brakes replaced with hydraulic disc brakes)
 * came back to find that I had restored that page's history.

Obviously I've messed up something here: attribution, deletion review, any number of other things.

I seek assistance about this. 10:24, 11 December 2023 (UTC) Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 10:24, 11 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Isabelle Belato 🏳‍🌈 10:29, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅. Should be fixed now. I just deleted the article and restored the most recent edits, starting from the most recent page creation. Isabelle Belato 🏳‍🌈 10:32, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My cat undeleted a page once while I was out for a bike ride (Miyata Triplecross with the squealiest canti brakes in the world). Afterwards I forced myself into a habit of always locking my computer reflexively when I step away from it. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:21, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The first time I used the undelete interface I thought it was a prank or something... it's so bad as to be comical. It is practically designed to make you embarrass yourself by undeleting articles. I think it's just that only a few hundred people ever have to deal with its awkwardness. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 18:37, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Might I suggest User:SD0001/quickViewDeleted.js, which automatically previews deleted pages for you? Without it I'd probably have had an equal number of embarrassing encounters with Special:Undelete by now... Extraordinary Writ (talk) 18:47, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Template talk:Did you know
Wasn't sure where to report, but the text has gone tiny halfway through the page and needs fixing. Govvy (talk) 20:57, 11 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I closed some unclosed formatting tags. Feel free to tweak as necessary. 57.140.16.1 (talk) 21:04, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Question
I had created a vandalism-only account as an idiot 9 year old. Could my current account be considered a sock? I had forgotten about the previous account at the time of creating this account. Drowssap SMM  12:48, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * There is some advice at WP:Clean start. As long as you don't behave like an idiot 9 year old now there will be no reason for anyone to investigate you for sockpuppetry. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:06, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, if the account isn't blocked, then you should be fine. Primefac (talk) 13:08, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok. Thank you for letting me know. Drowssap  SMM  13:37, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd like to reopen this to ask the question in some more detail -- is our official answer really that anyone, at any time, can cause OP to get got by revealing the identity of this account, and we have no choice but to block them as a sock, even if it was three peepee poopoo edits ten years ago? <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 18:33, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think our official answer is if the account isn't blocked, then you should be fine; As long as you don't behave like an idiot 9 year old now. Eddie891 Talk Work 18:56, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * But what if it is blocked? I think probably 99% of admins would WP:UCS and say "oh come on, that's not what sockpuppetry really means". The under-30 admins might have similar accounts of their own, in fact! But what about the other 1%? I'll ask any admin reading this: if, tomorrow, the OP says "yeah my previous account was ___" and it turns that account was indeffed ten years ago for a five-minute spree of the aforementioned peepee poopoo edits, would you block, and demand they request unblock from the original account? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 19:52, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It is in fact indeffed, and I no longer have access to it in any way (losing both an email and a ). The account in question's vandalism was just content removal and number-changing. Not sure why I was obsessed with Billy Ray Cyrus, but there you go. Drowssap  SMM  20:46, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Seeing as I'm the blocking admin... thanks for being open with it, but I'm not going to say you have to request an unblock. Letter of the law, yes you're "evading" a block, but I would say that you the person that's blocked, are more than OK to edit here. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:53, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Drowssap  SMM  20:55, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Even if the account is blocked then, as long it is a few years since the nine-year-old used it, an unblock request should be successful if the editor is transparent. I doubt if anyone would insist on that bit of bureaucracy, but who knows? Phil Bridger (talk) 19:50, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I would not block in this scenario nor I suspect would anyone else. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:02, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I would hope the account would not be blocked under such circumstances. Even if, strictly interpreted in most prosecutorial manner, we have IAR as a pillar for reasons such as this.   78.26  (spin me / revolutions) 20:55, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Eddie891 Talk Work 00:34, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

User moving pages without any discussion
User:ShivaniLocks is constantly moving pages without any discussion. He isn't replying in the talk page also. He just replies with an OK and nothing further than that. TuluveRai123 (talk) 14:15, 12 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Sorry ShivaniLocks (talk) 14:16, 12 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I've blocked ShivaniLocks as a sock. Perhaps someone could review the moves to see whether they should be reversed.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:54, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Looks like everything's reverted now. <b style="font-family:Monospace">-- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH)</b> 17:59, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

STOP asking for donations!
If the donations were ACTUALLY going to the editors who make this website, I would pay. But no, that money goes towards the Wikimedia "Foundation" and their ludicrously overpaid executives. Why can't they just relinquish some of their salary? WHY do you act like Wikipedia will fail without these donations? You DON'T need that money for servers so stop acting like you do. It's absolutely pathetic, sleazy, and utterly dishonest. I don't CARE about Wikimedia's projects, I ONLY care about Wikipedia, and if I'm going to be paying money, that money should be going to the ACTUAL users who create this website, not a bunch of overpaid bourgeoisie "staff" who accomplish absolutely nothing.

Absolutely disgusting. And the INSISTENCE is utterly obnoxious - EVERY time I load a Wikipedia page your misleading begging loads up top and forcibly scrolls upwards to the top. Enough is enough. STOP LYING. 1.157.92.55 (talk) 21:59, 15 December 2023 (UTC)


 * There is typically a fundraising push this time of year. There is no way to know that the person on your IP has seen the donation requests. If you create an account, you can turn off the donation requests in the account preferences. 331dot (talk) 22:01, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not us. It's the Foundation that owns the encyclopedia. And yes, one of the many benefits of account creation is being able to turn off those donation requests. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 22:16, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Why Is There Foul Language?
I Ask The Administrators: Why So Much Foul Language On Wikipedia? I Think It's Not Family Friendly. 2600:1700:9A60:2620:64E1:6A81:11B3:336F (talk) 16:50, 16 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not censored for any reason. Words and images inappropriate for minors will be present. If another user has used vulgar language as a personal attack against someone, that is not permitted and can be addressed, but using adult language is not prohibited. 331dot (talk) 16:55, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * What If Kids See It,I Don't Support Foul Language,There's No Reason To Keep It 2600:1700:9A60:2620:64E1:6A81:11B3:336F (talk) 17:13, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Protect article
I'm asking for a protect the article Mannlicher M1888 for editing only by registered users. Article is regularly vandalized by IP-user Sumek101 (talk) 12:19, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Request for file ‘un-upload’-ing
Hello - firstly, sorry for the post at AN; I’m not sure which /noticeboard would be best for this request.

File:Raat.jpg (logs) was originally a file redirect as an R from move. A file was then also uploaded at that name, after which the page was deleted.

I made a request to the deleting admin for the page’s undeletion, as (per WP:FILEREDIRECT) my understanding is that redirects from filemoves should be kept except in limited circumstances. The page was then restored; however, the file that was uploaded at that title has also now been restored. I’d therefore like to request that the file at the same title as the redirect be ‘un-uploaded’/deleted, so that the only thing at that title is the redirect. (I’m not sure what the correct terminology is here, apologies if I sound stupid)

Let me know if there are any queries about anything I’ve said. All the best, <sup style="letter-spacing:-.1em;color:#737373;font-family:monospace">user: A smart kitten <sub style="color:#b842b8;font-family:monospace">meow  12:32, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ -<span style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS';color:Indigo;font-weight:bold;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-size:120%;">Fastily 12:58, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:ANI
Would an admin please close this discussion? The editor who was reported has since been indeffed; and I cannot NAC the discussion myself because I was mentioned in it (although I did not open the discussion).  Erpert  blah, blah, blah... 12:39, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I NAC'd it. Nobody  ( talk ) 13:16, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * just a note on the closing comment; OP typically refers to the original poster, not the subject of the post (see also Wikipedia abbreviations). In that discussion the OP was, not , it might be a good idea to clarify that the editor was blocked and not the IP editor that started the discussion, just to avoid any confusion. - Aoidh (talk) 13:40, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Aoidh My mistake, got fooled by Convenient Discussions. Will correct now. Thanks for calling it out. Nobody  ( talk ) 13:48, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Checkuser candidates appointed (December 2023)
The Arbitration Committee is pleased to welcome the following editors to the functionary team: The committee thanks all members of the community who participated in the community consultations and helped bring this process to a successful conclusion.
 * is appointed as a CheckUser.
 * is appointed as a CheckUser.

For the Arbitration Committee, KevinL ( aka L235 · t · c) 13:53, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Discuss this at: 

Edits/username for revdeletion
Don't want to draw attention to what it is here but there is an account that has edited the pages Hannah, Hannah (name), and Social connection in which the username should be revdeleted and the username should also be suppressed from the whole site due to having a real person's name in it and saying bad stuff about them. Additionally, the username is mentioned at User talk:Zzuuzz/Archive 44 where it should be redacted and the person's name exists in past edits of User talk:190.37.228.24 and User talk:83.23.224.24 where it should be revdeleted. 156.205.220.126 (talk) 03:10, 16 December 2023 (UTC)


 * See Special:AbuseLog/36458374; it's an LTA, and it's not my first rodeo with them. – 64andtim  ( talk ) 03:20, 16 December 2023 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.46.59.229 (talk)
 * @Paul Erik you missed the edit summaries of edits reverting that username on the three in articlespace. 41.248.11.169 (talk) 04:55, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, got them now. Paul Erik  (talk) (contribs) 16:53, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Palestinian expulsion from Kuwait - request to fix history
Primefac (talk) 13:16, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Arbitration/Requests/Case/Industrial agriculture closed
An arbitration case, Arbitration/Requests/Case/Industrial agriculture, has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:


 * and are prohibited from interacting with, or commenting on, each other anywhere on Wikipedia (subject to the ordinary exceptions). This restriction may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter.
 * Leyo is admonished for battleground behavior, personal attacks, and use of administrator tools while INVOLVED. Leyo is INVOLVED in the topic area of genetically modified organisms, industrial agriculture, commercially produced agricultural chemicals, the effects of all three, and organizations or companies involved, broadly construed. Future instances of this kind of conduct may result in sanction, including removal of adminship, without warning, especially if it is INVOLVED tool use.
 * KoA is warned for edit warring and is reminded to engage in good faith when resolving their disputes.

For the Arbitration Committee, ~ ToBeFree (talk) 16:00, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Discuss this at: 

Please keep an eye on IOF
Please keep an eye on IOF - the last entry is an issue here. Animal lover &#124;666&#124; 17:06, 17 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I think there had been protection requests for this page before, and these had been declined due to a lack of disruption justifying protection back then. That was probably correct, but it isn't anymore; I have now extended-confirmed protected the page for a year. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:15, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Report
I want to report the user HiltroMilanese about the page to draft. He/She has made my page as draft. Please help me. FI.214 (talk) 10:39, 16 December 2023 (UTC)


 * This isn't an administrator issue. They reasonably placed your insufficiently sourced text in draft. If you disagree with this, please first discuss it with the user. 331dot (talk) 10:53, 16 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I've also moved Mau—Lokmanya Tilak Terminus Express to Draftspace. The only ref was an obviously false one, which I removed.  I think this editor -- FI.214 -- needs to be admonished in some way. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:56, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Articles for deletion
Hi admins. I'm trying to nominate an article for deletion, but the subject of the article is on the title blacklist. The AfD page should land at Articles for deletion/Ryan Hampton (writer) and with this deletion rationale:

I've reviewed the sources listed and they are all either passing mentions, short quotes from Hampton, or the work of Hampton himself. He does not appear to meet the notability requirements. I'll add that enough sockpuppets have attempted to create articles on this person that his name made it to the title creation blacklist. See Sockpuppet investigations/New baba/Archive for one of the sockpuppet investigation pages.

Thanks Oiyarbepsy (talk) 05:31, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:13, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

User:Scoutguy138 is acting quite questionable
Hi, I am a well-known and NOTABLE signed musician from NYC, USA. I was editing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_(record_label) to add myself to the roster as I saw I was not listed. I have legal clearance, and I am legally affiliated with "Opium". User:Scoutguy138 has decided to start an undo war on the main article. I was trying to de-escalate the situation, but this user did not believe my claims. I believe I put sufficient evidence to prove my claims. The subject of being signed to labels is hard to prove in itself. I believe I am being treated unfairly with regards to editing this article. I am asking for help in any way. I just need my edit made, that's all. I have no idea why I was threatened for "vandalism". Thanks. Snvrk (talk) 03:20, 18 December 2023 (UTC)


 * First off, you need to use reliable sources in claims on a biography of a living person. Second, may I asked why you the WP:COI notice on your user page...? Philipnelson99 (talk) 03:24, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * How was it blanked? I'm curious. Snvrk (talk) 03:35, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The correct link is . <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x Deadbeef →∞ (talk to me) 03:37, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I just fixed it. Snvrk (talk) 03:40, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Lil Snvrk does not exist as an article. Why would you presume that you would be notable? <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x Deadbeef →∞ (talk to me) 03:27, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, I have been signed to that label in question. I work closely with those artists mentioned, in real life. Snvrk (talk) 03:34, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Note that OP has a previous account: <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x Deadbeef  →∞ (talk to me) 03:40, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's mine. Forgot why I stopped using it. Probably email related. Snvrk (talk) 03:41, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Homixide Gang doesn't have an article yet, however they are listed. If that is the case, they shouldn't be. Snvrk (talk) 03:43, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know the best way to get my name in the article without starting any problems. I am stating that I am signed to the label. I should be linked to the article, or the article shouldn't be formatted this way. Snvrk (talk) 03:45, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

"Classical Hollywood cinema" fanboy article is a disaster
This article seems to have been monopolized by an individual or small group of individuals whose perception is warped...and no one's doing anything about it.

There are a couple of major issues. First is the timeframe used to define "Classical Hollywood". Some Joe Schmo has put 1969 as the cutoff, but the reference that immediately follows this dubious claim - Oxford Dictionary website - says 1960! Which means the editor who put '69 is lying (misrepresenting, fabricating, whatever).

For perspective, Raquel Welch said that she thought of classic Hollywood as finishing off in the '50s, while TCM's Alicia Malone considers a classic film to be anything before 1980. There is no clear definition.

Even if you approximate, 1969 is such a random year. Smack dab in the middle of counterculture, it's completely inappropriate to use as a cutoff. 1959 or 1979 would make sense.

The second major issue is the compilation of actors and actresses that are ostensibly "major figures from classical Hollywood cinema". Some of the names on there are laughable. Tippi Hedren? She starred in exactly two films. And while she was born in 1930, her first credit isn't until 1963. By that standard, Ron Howard should be on the list, since his debut well precedes Hedren's. By that standard, there are hundreds of names you could add to the list. The inclusion of Clint Eastwood is also absurd, as he didn't star in a Hollywood movie until 1968 when he was 38. Fabian Forte and Tuesday Weld, both of whom are 13 years younger than Eastwood, were household names a decade before he was, yet they aren't even on this bogus list. The list even has Zsa Zsa Gabor (!) as a "major figure from classical Hollywood cinema". Unbelievable.

It looks like someone has thought up all the famous or semi-famous performers born within a certain time, and that's the measurement they've used to determine eligibility....regardless of whether the performers were part of "Classical Hollywood" or not. It's ageism and pigeonholing, and it has nothing to do with "Classical Hollywood". Parts of this page have been written by editors who don't even understand what classic Hollywood is.

This isn't going to get resolved without administrative intervention. The talk page is no use. There have been attempts to start a discussion over the years, but nobody ever replies.

If you're going to pick a cutoff, the cutoff should be backed by a consensus. As for the index of actors and actresses deemed "major figures from classical Hollywood cinema", the only names that should be retained are those on AFI's 100 Screen Legends, since it's the only criteria that has been established. Namwidow (talk) 06:37, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * To prevent future abuse, it might be a good idea to remove the "major figures" list altogether. I'm looking through the edit history and no such section even existed until a decade-plus after the article was forked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Namwidow (talk • contribs) 07:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Canvassing via email in an RfC
Needing to alert administrators that there is a report of a blocked sock-master using email to canvass at the Talk:2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel, a CTOPS article and discussion. The alert at the RfC was done by. I am not sure if further steps at ArbCom or further investigation is needed, but Nableezy stated that was asking people to vote a specific option in the RfC via email. This is just to alert administrators to the email canvassing at a CTOPS RfC. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:13, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * already been reported, nothing to do here tbh but be aware.  nableezy  - 21:43, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Draft:Proposed article translations
created Draft:Proposed article translations in an attempt to have Japanese Wikipedia articles into English and added to English Wikipedia. I'm pretty sure that this not the best namespace for something (perhaps it would be better off as a user sandbox page, but it now is being used like a talk page to discuss the various articles listed. Immanuelle was indefinitely blocked by for CIR reasons and some other things, but most likely they are continuing to push this project using various IP addresses like Special:Contributions/95.233.233.43. Since IPs don't have user sandboxes and Immanuelle is currently indefinitely blocked, it's not clear where the content on this "draft" page should be moved to. Is it OK to leave as is or should it be moved somewhere else? -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:20, 18 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The easiest solution is to move it to Immanuelle's user space, although the page is somewhat symbolic of the issues raised above and is a clear misuse of draft space. As an alternative, the text could probably be copied to User talk:Immanuelle, where it originally came from. CMD (talk) 03:38, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know what should happen. I guess it's ok to have a page where random IPs discuss continuing Immanuelle's work? Johnuniq (talk) 03:46, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure the Italian IPs are LTA. See, e.g. contributions from 87.5.17.159, or other IPs recently editing Immanuelle's user talk. To the mastermind question, Immanuelle has edited while logged out before, and it was from a completely different part of the world. The "proposed article translations" draft is not an article draft, so moving it to userspace is sensible, but I would suggest semi protection to reduce its use as command and control for further LTA activity. The requests are largely for non-notable/difficult-to-source topics that will simply burn up the time of well-meaning editors trying to figure that out, which is the "A" part of LTA, I guess. Indignant Flamingo (talk) 04:27, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks to those who commented so far. FWIW, I first became aware of this after the IP address I linked to in my OP posted about it on my user talk; however, it didn't really click that this was in the draft namespace until after seeing another post about the page at WT:JAPAN. I don't think any of the registered accounts posting on the page realize this might by a case of LTA; they're more than likely just responding to posts left on their user talk pages. Anyway, if moving the content isn't appropriate, then perhaps deletion via G5, G6 or MFD would be the thing to do. At least that way, those not connected to the IPs can copy-and-paste the content into their user spaces if they want. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:42, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Page moved to User talk:Immanuelle/Proposed article translations. Primefac (talk) 08:46, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * She regularly does nonsense like this, c.f. Draft:Reminder to help 95.239.125.51 if my editing restrictions are not in place anymore and appeal them if they are. That said, if the IPs are her, they need to be blocked. Either she's blocked, which seems to have support and she has not appealed, or she appeals it. The editing on Simple is what was suggested, this isn't it.  Star   Mississippi  13:46, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * There are several possibilities here, none of which lead to that article being in draft space:
 * This is Immanuelle, in which case she should appeal the block before doing anything else.
 * This is intended as one editor's todo list, in which case it should be in that editor's user space.
 * It is intended to be shared between users, in which case it belongs in Wikipedia space, maybe under some project such as WP:WikiProject Japan.
 * Phil Bridger (talk) 14:09, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the additional comments. As posted above, moved the page to Immanuelle's username space which takes care of the draft. Whether there are other issues (e.g. EVADE, SOCK, NOTHERE, etc.) regarding Immanuelle that need to be addressed, I'll leave that for admins to sort out. In my personal opinion, the other users engaging with Immanuelle and the IPs about these proposed translations on Immanuelle's user talk page and on the draft's page aren't really helping matters, though. Immanuelle should be focusing getting unblocked before anything else, and trying to edit via WP:PROXYING is going to make that happen anytime soon. I thought about posting something along these lines on Immanuelle's user talk page, but perhaps such a thing is best left for an admin to do. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:19, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've left a note reminding her that SO requires no logged out editing and the block applies to the person. I hope it helps. Star   Mississippi  03:13, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * and the explanation is reasonable. Star   Mississippi  03:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Vandalism by user
User:Shurpanakha is reverting and removing sourced content and making the article from his POV. He is not even replying in the talk page also. He did few edits on Bunt (community) and Santara dynasty. TuluveRai123 (talk) 12:11, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You failed to notify the user of this complaint, as you are required to do. You've also provided not a single diff of the user's supposed POV edits. Finally, calling the user's edits vandalism is a personal attack. Don't do it.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:41, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry for not doing those.
 * I notified the user and these are his POV edits Edit 1 Edit 2
 * TuluveRai123 (talk) 14:09, 19 December 2023 (UTC)



Please go through this, I have written about the issue in detail here. I am only restoring deletions made without any basis. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Varna_section_of_Bunt_(community)_page) Shurpanakha (talk) 14:43, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ,, , and all seem to be having a slow-motion edit war at  and  for about a month. We have false edit summaries like "Added links" and "Added links" flying around, massive essays in edit summaries, use of Victorian-era sources, an SPI case at Sockpuppet investigations/Vicky4197 with a "possible" result, "vandal" accusations such as Special:Diff/1190714931 and Special:Diff/1190715063 also flying around, an open incident report at Project:Administrators' Noticeboard/Incidents. I have taken  out of play straightaway, given the checkuser result and the deceptive edit summaries that go back to February, just to make this a little easier to disentangle. And since this has been going on for roughly a month already, I've protected those pages for 3 months, as clearly 1 month isn't enough to get this whole mess to stop.  The sad thing is that out of them all, only the possible sock-puppet with the demonstrable months-long history of deceptive edit summaries has used the talk page at all. Uncle G (talk) 14:58, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Request for review of editing restrictions
I have had several editing restrictions in place since march.


 * Immanuelle is limited to one user account.
 * Immanuelle is prohibited from using any AI-assisted editing tools, or machine translation from any language, in any article or draft. They must also ensure that no content added to articles violates copyright.
 * Immanuelle is prohibited from self-publishing articles to mainspace or reverting draftification. Any new articles must be submitted via Articles for creation.
 * Immanuelle must not merge content into other articles as a response to having a draft declined or an article nominated for deletion.

I have been having a lot of success with making high quality articles recently.

I want them to be reviewed and possibly loosened now.

I have two main requests


 * 1) Some kind of review of the merging restriction. I do not believe it is fulfilling its purpose
 * 2) The opportunity to attempt to prove my translation competence

Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 20:28, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Merging

 * Immanuelle must not merge content into other articles as a response to having a draft declined or an article nominated for deletion.

This one causes a lot of problems because a lot of draft declines are done with explicit requests to merge the content into articles, or are declined because the article already exists under a different name. I want some kind of a system in place to allow for the merging from a declined draft, or the lifting of the restriction altogether. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 20:28, 3 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I want to clarify here that I have violated and received a 24 hour block in the past over this. @Galobtter can speak more on it and how I have found this one particularly obtrusive. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 21:13, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Proving translation competence

 * Immanuelle is prohibited from using any AI-assisted editing tools, or machine translation from any language, in any article or draft. They must also ensure that no content added to articles violates copyright.

I want to have an exemption to this restriction for Draft:Horaisan Kofun to attempt to prove I am competent. I want that draft to be reviewed with a lot more scrutiny than a typical submission so people can judge my competence with it, because I believe I am more competent than people have thought I was, and want to attempt to prove that to the community. This was suggested by @Knowledgekid87 who has also agreed to help with looking over my translation, and who already established the notability and good sourcing of the Japanese article.Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 20:28, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Knowledgekid87's userpage lists their level of competence in Japanese as 0.5 (i.e. between "none" and "basic"). I don't think they would be the best person to verify the accuracy of Japanese translations. Spicy (talk) 20:37, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Spicy ideally I would want either @Eirikr or @Dekimasu to do the reviewing. They are the people I personally trust the most in this area. But KnowledgeKid87 is the only person who has volunteered so far. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 20:59, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My time is limited of late, and will likely remain so for the foreseeable future. That said, if a review is either short, or can take place over an extended period, I am happy to help as best I can. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:59, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I am willing to review a translation if the block on Immanuelle is lifted, with a few caveats. I am not an expert on tumuli or scholarship on them in Japan. I can tell you if a translation related to kofun is accurate based on the sources cited, but I will not be able to tell you whether the best set of reliable sources is being used. This would limit my ability to truly review the translation. But with precisely that in mind, I do not believe (based on prior examples of machine translation prior to the old ANI thread, and exchanges after the restrictions were put in place including User talk:Immanuelle/Archive 4 and User talk:Immanuelle/Archive 4) that Immanuelle knows what the best set of reliable sources is either. Therefore I think Immanuelle should have modest expectations about what my evaluation of the translation will be if this plan is implemented at some point. Dekimasu よ! 13:59, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Clarifications

 * Immanuelle is prohibited from self-publishing articles to mainspace or reverting draftification. Any new articles must be submitted via Articles for creation.

I want to clarify whether I am allowed to create disambiguation pages without going through AFC


 * Immanuelle is limited to one user account.

I want to clarify whether I am allowed to ip editImmanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 20:28, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Comments

 * Immanuelle is prohibited from self-publishing articles to mainspace or reverting draftification. Any new articles must be submitted via Articles for creation.

The AFC restriction used to cause me a lot of issues, but since the backlog drive, I have been receiving timely reviews for all my submissions. I am happy with this and do not want to appeal it now. But I have had some comments from AFC reviewers saying my submissions seemed like they shouldn't have to go through AFC. So long as the backlog does not become massive again, I do not have much desire to get this lifted.

Tagging @Galobtter the restriction imposing admin. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 20:27, 3 December 2023 (UTC)


 * @Immanuelle: this is a very long request, but doesn't show that you fully understand the problems this was imposed for or how you will prevent it in the future. You have a recent block for violating one of these restrictions, which does not give me confidence to support loosening restrictions at this point. You should have been upfront about this in your request. See WP:GAB for some help with what makes a good request. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 20:44, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Femke I apologize for that. However I did tag the admin involved with the block.
 * This particular violated restriction is one I believe no longer serves the purpose it was imposed for. It was put in place to prevent me from merging in content from articles rejected due to bad translation or ai generated content. As I am not producing said content it now generally has played the role of preventing me from merging not independently notable content into articles. @Asilvering and @Galobtter have both experienced situations of ambiguity where I was really unable to do simple requested merges or partial merges from such drafts. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 20:55, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The block occurred when I attempted to merge Draft:Content I want to merge into Mechanical and organic solidarity into Mechanical and organic solidarity as it was an already existing article and the draft declined on the basis of not establishing notability. This is an example of a situation where I have no way of actually getting permission to merge the content. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 21:03, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Immanuelle, thanks for tagging me here for clarification. I'm glad you've been focusing more on quality recently and have made efforts to find better sources. Your success rate at AfC is going up, and that is very good to see too. But I don't think you are ready for any of these restrictions to be removed yet. For clarity, it is my understanding of your restrictions that you are allowed to edit in mainspace, and that there is nothing preventing you from editing a mainspace article in response to a draft decline at AfC; what you can't do is directly merge declined content into an extant article. I have not yet declined a draft of yours that has made me think "this should go as-is into mainspace, just in a different article", so I don't see any reason why you would need a restriction lifted that would allow you to do that. Moreoever, if you want to lift editing restrictions that were applied after consensus on an ANI thread, you're going to have to show people that you have been editing successfully with those restrictions. You were only just at ANI a month ago for the issues with your drafts, so I don't think you're going to be able to do that. Please - you need to be patient, and you need to slow down. -- asilvering (talk) 22:46, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Asilvering Yeah it might be prudent to be a bit more patient
 * At the same time though I am made a bit afraid of lots of edits. I feel I'd like at least something of the form where I can ask for approval from an AFC reviewer or admin or similar to get an exemption for the first restriction. Such as being able to rewrite a declined draft into a paragraph or section and ask for approval. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 00:05, 4 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose as not ready yet, and I still have concerns about hat collecting and needing credit for creations. This is an example of a situation where I have no way of actually getting permission to merge the content. if someone else thinks it's necessary, they'll do so. There is no reason you need to be the one doing the merge. Focus on quality over quantity and also maybe do something about the sig? Not a policy issue, but doesn't seem appropriate for an encyclopedia. Just my 02. Star   Mississippi  02:46, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Star Mississippi you make a good point about that tbh. Would you consider it against policy for me to post on the talk pages of articles that I want to merge these paragraphs from the draft but have the restriction in place, or to ask other users to do it? I am concerned that declined drafts will just end up being never seen. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 03:36, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I believe that would fall afoul of WP:PROXYING. What's the concern about them never being seen? That's the case for many drafts. YOu might be able to leave the suggestion as a comment for an AfC reviewer but that's a question for @Asilvering Star   Mississippi  03:55, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It looks like WP:PROXYING has an exception for content that is verifiable and productive, with the proviso that whatever editor does the edit takes full responsibility for it. I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but I wouldn't want to do that. -- asilvering (talk) 04:39, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * A lengthy observation that might clarify some otherwise strange-seeming claims above: Immanuelle seems to create content like someone creates a scrapbook: assembled from pieces they've taken from elsewhere. I don't mean (necessarily) plagiarizing. I mean more fundamentally that if they don't already have a sentence in front of them to shuffle/reorganize, they are effectively unable to produce content at a pace faster than a slow crawl. That's why so many of their 50k edits are just shuffling sentences and paragraphs from other articles and other wikis into different arrangements. That's also why they've introduced copyright/close paraphrasing problems, and why some of their recent AfC successes contain basically the same structure and statements as entire passages of cited sources, just with simplified vocabulary and grammar.I think this observation explains two otherwise inexplicable things about this request. First, to 's point, why bother copy/pasting rejected content wholesale into an article rather than just writing new content directly into mainspace? Because they can't, at least without slowing waaaaaay down. To go fast, they have to assemble content from other bits. But the bits are in the rejected drafts, you see, so they're basically stuck, from their perspective. Second, to 's point, why use machine translation if you're sufficiently capable in the language that you can verify the sources anyway? Because they can't quickly or easily produce new sentences/paragraphs that summarize claims in their own words. That's why they "need" machine translation: to generate the pieces that they can rearrange/rewrite. If they have to actually slow down and manually translate into their own words, their productivity will greatly decrease. In my opinion that's good for the encyclopedia, but I can also see how it's frustrating for Immanuelle personally. Indignant Flamingo (talk) 00:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Indignant Flamingo with AFC as it stands right now I'd be happy to adhere to your older proposed restriction of only 20 drafts at a time, and really put high levels of effort into them and spend long periods on them. That was not a feasible restriction back when every draft took 4 months to get reviewed, but now that it is more like a week, it is quite feasible, although I am afraid it will rise up to a 4 month wait period again.
 * I am currently at 2,491 drafts now, down from a high of 3,946 drafts so almost a 40% reduction in the count, and I have no doubt that I will be able to get the count down a lot lower in the future. There's a lot more pages out there that I am not bumping.
 * My ideal workflow on Draft:Horaisan Kofun if the request were accepted would likely go something like this
 * Make a machine translation of the Japanese article and have the original text
 * Go through each sentence painstakingly correcting and writing comment notes about how I interpreted each part, and in edit histories
 * Once that is finished go through all the claims, try to find English language sources and compare what they say. Maybe try to find Japanese language sources myself, but stay on the simpler side for Japanese language sources
 * Then add any new information I think is missing or necessary in the article.
 * Ask someone like @Eirikr or @Dekimasu to look over everything I did
 * Submit to AFC if they think it was well done
 * This would take a long time to do. But I'd be very happy to do it. It's an area I'm passionate about, and I believe I have the specific competency for this, but just as with earlier, last year I needed to slow down to actually do it well.
 * I think your heart is really in the right place with the appeals to slow down, but I feel without being given the opportunity to edit more freely, it won't let me improve as much as you are hoping.
 * Among my drafts I am through a lot of the drafts that I considered my best ones or the ones most likely to prove notability. And I am also not under the pressure to rush everything through that ANI gave. I also don't feel the strong temptation to attempt to get everything through the short AFC queue because although it is lengthening. It looks like it will long term be more like this, and the ones I was most concerned with are already through. I currently have only one active draft submission Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 02:48, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * But why would you do this, and use up a lot of another editor's time checking your work, when you could write articles for which sufficient English-language sources exist? There's no shortage of these topics. -- asilvering (talk) 04:55, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Asilvering ideally I would be able to gain enough trust to not need my work checked long term, only short term, and I feel if I manage to achieve this, then I will be able to offer something to wikipedia that I couldn't otherwise.
 * An example is my attempts at investigating this quote
 * "In Shinsen Shōjiroku, the descendants of Amatsuhikone, Ame-no-hohi, and Amanomichine, together with the descendants of Amenohoakari are referred to as Tenson-zoku. The Tenson-zoku descended from Takamagahara (Plain of High Heaven) to Owari and Tanba provinces, and are considered to be the ancestors of Owari, Tsumori, Amabe, and Tanba clans.

However, it is clear that Amabe-shi Keizu, which records these four clans as descendants of Amenohoakari, is a forged document, and that these clans actually descended from the sea deity Watatsumi. In addition, Owari clan's genealogy includes the great-grandson of Watatsumi, Takakuraji, as their ancestor, and this is considered to be the original genealogy."

- 太西


 * Which revealed a lot of interesting context I believe I could add to it if I was allowed to use Japanese sources. This is a topic that I do not think any English publications have been written on yet.
 * There are definitely a lot of areas that I could help with that I think would be worth at least giving me a shot for. In the end I am just requesting to do something in draftspace that won't be overwhelming editors. It isn't like I'll submit 200 such articles all at once to AFC or anything. I'll be taking my time with this to be especially careful I get everything right. Eirikr said he'd be willing to help and he is really competent with Japanese.
 * This won't be disruptive if done at a small scale in draftspace, even if I end up completely failing at it. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 07:35, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If you machine translate an article, then you would not be interpreting any of the parts. Your point 3 is also highly worrying, why would you not go directly to sources instead of having prior steps? CMD (talk) 06:07, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Chipmunkdavis I would be interpreting parts because I would not be doing a pure machine translation, I'd just be using it as one of many components in my translation efforts.
 * It would be probably more useful for me to directly interpret Japanese sources for a lot of situations. But I cannot offer as much transparency about what I am doing there since it would involve hosting copyrighted materials on wikipedia
 * As far as english language sources go, I could definitely make an article on Horaisan/Horaiyama Kofun entirely with English sources. But the problem is that it will not accomplish this goal of demonstrating competency. In reality the steps will be mixed together and not always firmly differentiated, but I generally believe this will be able to demonstrate competency and help create articles which are better than ones that would be made otherwise. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 06:30, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * , you say But I cannot offer as much transparency about what I am doing there since it would involve hosting copyrighted materials on wikipedia. This sounds very much like you're planning to violate the WP:User pages guideline. Why would you do this? You could 'host copyrighted materials' on your own device. Or if you haven't space there, in cloud storage. Why must everything be stored on Wikipedia servers? (See also my unanswered question from last month about the possibility of Immanuelle's keeping drafts on her own computer.) BlackcurrantTea (talk) 07:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @BlackcurrantTea I think you are misunderstanding
 * Translating wikipedia article content due to the licensing is something I could easily show transparently through edit history what I am doing and my thought proces for it.
 * I can definitely copy the text of a website I find into a word document, write my own translation with notes and such and send it to another editor for review. But that is harder and requires me to actively send it
 * This is why I believe for proving my competence, wikipedia pages are preferable. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 08:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I read this yesterday, and thought I'd come back to it with fresh eyes today and it would make more sense. It sounds as if you're saying that it's preferable to keep copyrighted material in your user pages because that way it's easier for another editor to compare the copyrighted material with your translation of it. Is this what you mean? Please explain if I've got the wrong end of the stick, because there aren't any exceptions listed for keeping copyrighted material in WP:User pages. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 12:35, 6 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks I think this observation explains two otherwise inexplicable things about this request. is absolutely true., you've made it clear why you want to do these things, but not why the project needs them. AfC review time is low now, but it will go back up. It always does after a backlog drive. You're going to need to learn to be patient, as there is no rush to create content. Several thousand drafts is not necessarily a good thing. Improve those you have, and then maybe worry about the restrictions. Things will get to mainspace eventually.  Star   Mississippi  15:03, 5 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Question what is the purpose of drafts like Draft:Reminder to help 95.239.125.51 if my editing restrictions are not in place anymore and appeal them if they are and why isn't it just on your userpage? Star   Mississippi  15:56, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Proposal
I'd propose that the following occur, perhaps as a way to give a little rope while still keeping the restrictions basically in place:


 * The first restriction, titled is interpreted to prevent the intentional usage by Immanuelle of an IP address rather than their user account, as this would prevent transparency regarding their editing and compliance with the restrictions placed on them.
 * The second restriction, titled is modified to read, "Immanuelle is prohibited from using any AI-assisted editing tools, or machine translation from any language, in any article or draft. They must also ensure that no content added to articles violates copyright. This restriction may be lifted on individual drafts by any administrator, so long as an experienced translator, in the opinion of the administrator, is actively working with Immanuelle on the draft in question."
 * The third restriction, titled is interpreted to include disambiguation pages.
 * The fourth restriction, titled remains in effect. Any uninvolved editor remains able to merge content for Immanuelle, in accordance with WP:PROXYING.

The basic summary of the proposal above:


 * Immanuelle cannot edit from an IP to conceal their contributions. (Pretty much covered by WP:LOGOUT anyways.)
 * Immanuelle can only utilize AI-assisted editing tools/machine translation under the supervision of an experienced translator, and must gain permission from an administrator prior to doing so.
 * The restriction against self-publishing to mainspace or reverting drafticiation shall include disambiguation pages.
 * The restriction against merging content remains. WP:PROXYING already covers any merging that needs to take place, and I don't see any way that the community would consider lifting this restriction given the block not even a full month ago for violating the restriction.

EggRoll97 (talk) 08:03, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If you're under a restriction that you must use one account, then editing while logged out is evading the restriction. Fine to clarify that here but the restriction doesn't need to be amended. The second restriction, that they may not use AI assistance or machine translation, does not restrict them from manually translating an article (with the proper attribution please) and having an editor experienced in both languages review it, and copyright violations are not allowed anyway; that restriction also needs no amendment but I oppose the amendment proposed, since nobody should be publishing AI- or machine-assisted translations anyway. The rest I have no comment on. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:13, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Ivanvector machine translation is allowed on wikipedia if you properly verify it with your own knowledge. My intention would be to mostly rely on English sources to verify things, but occasionally cite Japanese sourcs. I do believe I have the required knowledge, but was being negligent earlier. I wouldn't be doing raw content Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 23:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Counter-proposal
Why are we even entertaining this? This is a well-meaning editor who takes away an enormous amount of community time and patience with their edits and with AN sections like this one. Meanwhile, they are editing like this, which was already an improvement over, with the edits before these being more of this. An unlucky run? Well, not really, they did the exact same thing to some 20 other drafts 3 hours earlier, and again to dozens of drafts yesterday evening, and a minor variation to again dozens of drafts yesterday morning. Or the day beforeThey are clearly running some automated tool in unsupervised mode and are making a mess with it again and again and again.

Deny these appeals, stop them from appealing for a year, and give them a restriction against using automated tools. Fram (talk) 09:07, 12 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I am not using automated tools. This is all manual. I am trying to avoid the disruptive effect of too many drafts getting warnings all at once, which renders my talk page unusable. In those cases I was disabling a category I inappropriately added earlier, while also scheduling some articles to get g17 warnings on weekends when I'd be more able to decide whether they were worth keeping.
 * Doing something quickly does not imply the use of automated tools.
 * The results speak for themselves. I have been very effective at reducing my draft count. imo I will clearly be at a reasonable amount of drafts in 6 months if not sooner.
 * November 4, 2023: 3,522 drafts
 * December 12, 2023: 2,252 drafts
 * Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 12:12, 12 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree completely with Fram's counterproposal. The most important resource of the encyclopedia is the time, energy and optimism of constructive editors, and they're all being squandered here, by Immanuelle's editing and by this great big discussion. It's pretty shocking that Immanuelle made the edits Fram gives diffs for today (please click on them if you're going to comment, dear reader!), and even more shocking that Immanuelle responds to Fram without any explanation or excuse for them. I don't consider "This is all manual" to be an explanation. The question is whether declining the request and stopping them from appealing for a year is enough. If that's really all manual — and we are of course expected to AGF that Immanuelle is telling the truth — they need a CIR block, IMO. Bishonen &#124; tålk 14:49, 12 December 2023 (UTC).
 * (PS, adding: and by a CIR block I mean an indefinite block.) Bishonen &#124; tålk 17:53, 12 December 2023 (UTC).
 * +1. CIR because otherwise volunteers' time, energy, and goodwill is wasted. Levivich (talk) 15:35, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. I've spent so much time on correcting Immanuelle's drafts and articles, including adding edit summaries on what they should do instead, only to never have those comments acted upon. - UtherSRG (talk) 15:48, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * CIR block for the reasons above. I don’t see evidence that her behaviour wasting the time of other editors who have to fix it will change. Doug Weller  talk 21:36, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Every edit is a chance to prove competence. 55,000+ edits into this account, we're still having to ask questions like "does Immanuelle understand basic content policies?" and "can Immanuelle accurately summarize sources in their own words?" and "what is Immanuelle even doing right now?". Instead of clear answers, we get a pitch to prove competence in translation by...not translating? Enough is enough. Having already put a lot of time into AN(I) efforts to harness Immanuelle's enthusiasm productively, I now think that Immanuelle's motivations and priorities are simply incompatible with the goals of this project, and well-meaning efforts to fix that discrepancy are both futile and a waste of valuable editor time. So I support CIR indef. Indignant Flamingo (talk) 23:36, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support for more or less the same reasons I opposed above. I don't think Immanuelle is ready to edit without restrictions, nor has a case been made for why we need the majority of these 2,000+ drafts. Let them expire unless edited by someone else and impose an AfC quantity restriction to avoid this in the future. Star   Mississippi  17:27, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support the proposal to deny these appeals and stop Immanuelle from appealing for a year. (I believe Immaneulle is telling the truth about not using automated tools, and so therefore adding a restriction against automated tools might as well be added since it will have no effect.) Most important I think is the ban on appeals: it shows very poor judgment on Immanuelle's part to have brought this back to AN so soon, when the original drawn-out discussion was clearly a drain on everyone. I can't find it in my heart to support an indef block for such a clearly good-faith editor who is improving -- the junk edits that Fram highlights make logistical sense in Immanuelle's draft-management system, and I have seen Immanuelle making more constructive edits at AfC -- but I think Bishonen is right that we need to take action to make sure the time, energy and optimism of constructive editors is spent wisely. Evaluating Immanuelle's behaviour as an editor is even more costly in time, energy, and optimism than addressing their individual edits: no appeals until it is plausible that something can have lastingly changed. ~ L 🌸  (talk) 18:44, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support It was clear in the last thread that Immanuelle should slow down and focus on improvement other quantity, instead we have this thread. I feel editors have been patient enough dealing with all this. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:57, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I haven't been involved thus far, but looking at your appeal it looks like restrictions on your drafts are causing you a lot of headaches and interfering with your enjoyment of editing. Can I ask why you don't just spend a while improving existing articles? Reading things like a lot of draft[s are] declined because the article already exists under a different name makes me think you're not putting enough effort into even looking for an existing article before starting a new one. Why focus on creation? Also a reminder that you can move drafts to your userspace to take your time working on them without worrying about deletion. Speaking of which, I see and others mention that other folks should be the ones to merge content from Immanuelle's drafts. It occurs to me I don't know the typical process for doing that while preserving the history/attribution once the draft is deleted after six months? Is an edit summary saying ~"written by Immanuelle" really sufficient? Attribution aside, I don't love the idea of saying someone else is required to merge their content even when they've been encouraged to do so by a reviewer. Volunteers aren't unfeeling robots -- even though there's no authorship here, we do certainly feel a sense of pride/gratification from having good edits attached to our usernames, as meager a kind of "credit" as that is. &mdash; Rhododendrites  <sup style="font-size:80%;">talk \\ 18:35, 12 December 2023 (UTC)


 * @Rhododendrites with respect to the merger and attribution, I think that once Draft:Immanuelle's Coverage of Ninjas is merged to Ninjas, the draft would redirect and therefore no longer be subject to G13 which solves that. I think Immanuelle means well in her creations, but there's been a lack of demand for the content. They're encouraged to do so to save their (reviewers,etc.) time, but no inclination it's necessary. Like @Asilvering, I have yet to see one of her drafts where I thought mainspace had a need for the content. Just my .02. Star   Mississippi  18:53, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The focus on creation appears to be a product of how Immanuelle finds topics to work on: by finding articles in other Wikipedias that have no corresponding article in English, and attempting to create it. I don't think the issue here is "not putting enough effort into looking for an existing article" so much as it is "assuming that every article ought to exist on every Wikipedia". That is, I don't believe any effort is being put into looking for an existing article, but I don't see that as a problem per se. The problem is more that Immanuelle has not demonstrated a strong grasp of notability, or of what defines a reliable source.
 * Speaking as someone who has reviewed many of Immanuelle's AfC drafts, I think "reviewers are encouraging Immanuelle to merge content into existing articles" is not precisely correct. Yes, one of the declines you can use when you think "this doesn't belong in a separate article and should be dealt with in some other article" is called "mergeto" and does include the canned message The proposed article does not have sufficient content to require an article of its own, but it could be merged into the existing article on the same subject. But I'm not sure most reviewers really think of that as encouragement to merge so much as an expression of "please don't resubmit this, and why aren't you editing the article that's already in mainspace?!" I know I personally tend to say "please don't merge this directly, but articlename is where this information belongs, not in a separate article" or something similar. -- asilvering (talk) 18:59, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Rhododendrites well the big issues I have with the restrictions really come down to the fact as I see it, they are ambiguous, and the ambiguity puts a lot more issues on me than the restrictions would on face value.
 * I fear that even citing the same book chapter in a related mainspace article could be construed as self plagiarism violating the rule, since you can't look into my head to see what is going on there.
 * This is similar to how no machine translation equals no foreign language sources at all.
 * @Asilvering is right generally I'd say, about the drafts. I am most concerned just that even if the content itself is good, there might be only 3 people who are interested in the particular topic and active editors, so it might take oer six months for such a person to find the drafts.
 * @LEvalyn explained to me that there was a lot less of a demand for me to go through my drafts as I had thought. I appreciate their attempts to help me on this. They have changed my perspective. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 01:45, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Block Discussion
After reviewing as much of this discussion and recent edits as was reasonable, I have indefinitely blocked because, as explained above, far too much time has been wasted. Of course this is the action of an individual administrator and any admin happy to unblock can do so. Johnuniq (talk) 03:16, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I haven't reviewed this entire discussion but I interact with Immanuelle a lot because I work a lot with draft articles and Immanuelle creates a lot of drafts. I'm surprised that this discussion came to the point where an indefinite block was felt to be the next step. I guess it came out of frustration? Because Immanuelle is a prolific content creator and while many drafts go nowhere, it's hard for me to see the editor as a net negative to the project. I'll come back and review this discussion more thoroughly tomorrow. Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 04:45, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Not an admin, but can't say I agree with this block. Immanuelle's been making a good effort to improve, and I don't see how a block at this point helps the project. Elli (talk &#124; contribs) 05:23, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * <sup style="letter-spacing:-.1em;color:#737373;font-family:monospace">user: A smart kitten <sub style="color:#b842b8;font-family:monospace">meow  12:36, 13 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment I was a bit suprised to wake up this morning to find that Immanuelle is now blocked, seemingly out of frustration, which should have never been a reason for a block. The editor is capable of producing good work, Ikagashikome.  scope_creep Talk  08:08, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I have stayed out of this discussion so far (despite being pinged to it, I have not had enough time to participate; yes, Immanuelle has good intentions, and yes, the editing causes strain on the resources of other editors)—but I do not think this is a good example. For one thing, the article discusses a legendary figure as though she were a historical figure. There is no reliable source that will state that Ikagashikome was the empress dowager beginning in 97 BC, because there are no reliable sources in Japan from that period. Thus the article on her purported husband, Emperor Kōgen, notes from the lede that "his actual existence is disputed" and lists dates of his "alleged" reign. Plus he is said to have lived until the age of 115. But Ikagashikome presents legend as fact. Second, Ikagashikome is clearly a translation from another Wikipedia or has material that was copied and pasted without attribution. The article was created in March 2023 but gives source access dates in 2010 and 2019 and 2020. Third, I am not convinced that Immanuelle is aware of the problems in the sources presented for the article. There was a question above about whether Immanuelle can be a competent translator. Competent translation requires not only the ability to translate the words in external sources, but the ability to determine whether the sources being cited are reliable, and I still lack confidence on this point.
 * For example, one of Immanuelle's primary topics of work (including after explicitly stating that there would be no more translations from Asian languages in the previous ANI discussion) has been related to Japanese Shinto shrines. I recently received a well-meaning talk page message from Immanuelle asking for help on an article on a particular Shinto shrine because "it is currently the highest ranked shrine in the Modern system of ranked Shinto shrines without an article, being an Imperial shrine, 2nd rank." Since the time when I did not reply to that message the article has been created. I do not have any specific problem with the article's creation, but Immanuelle appears to be engaged in an extended effort to systematize the English Wikipedia's articles on Shinto shrines according to a ranked system of Shinto shrines. Why is this a problem? Well, the ranked system of Shinto shrines no longer officially exists. Why does the system no longer exist? Mainly because it was only implemented as a way to implement State Shinto, one of the primary ideological pillars of the Japanese empire and what has often been called "Japanese-style fascism". In other words, there are good reasons not to use this as a benchmark for what shrines should be covered on Wikipedia and how they should be arranged, but I have not had the energy to attempt to alter the pace at which Immanuelle has been going through this, and the subject is a niche area where not many active editors will know the problems involved in this system of organization. I am no expert on Shinto sects or "doctrines", and thus I have never really edited in that area, but to be frank, I doubt that Immanuelle has considered whether statist ideologies should be the basis of our article categorization, and that has not stopped Immanuelle from proceeding. It is perhaps unfair to make these points while Immanuelle is blocked, but it is undoubtedly the case that it is not only the output and editing of machine translation that is an issue here. It is also the level of knowledge of the subject matter being introduced to the encyclopedia. I do not want to argue for or against the CIR block that was currently put in place, but the editing restrictions were certainly needed and a boomerang could have been foreseen here. Dekimasu よ! 13:41, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I tried to draw this to Immanuelle's attention recently, apparently without success. -- asilvering (talk) 22:37, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * (non-admin, involved to the extent that I forwarded 's original post to ANI.) I admire everyone's patience with this but I really think it needed to happen. Fixing bad translation should not be a structural expectation. It is important to realize that the articles were being flagged for WP:PNT, which is a small project with no support and few regulars. In particular there were no Japanese-speaking editors eagerly awaiting articles like that to fix up. That, and several other problems in the way en-wiki handles foreign languages were a problem not of Immanuelle's making, but the sheer scale of such work in mainspace really could not be sustained. We still have hundreds of similar articles about the French Foreign Legion, streets in Paris, and fortifications in France from....2019; I think it was. I would be very interested in a conversation about better ways to handle translated material but the small ad-hoc current system has a five-year backlog, during which some quasi- incomprehensible articles have remained in mainspace. Have they contributed to misinformation? Maybe. Is anyone currently working on this? As far as I can tell, no. Elinruby (talk)


 * Liz and any others who are surprised by the block, did you click on the diffs offered by Fram above? Immanuelle responded below Fram without saying anything about them, and instead talked about the importance of keeping her own talkpage usable — something she still seems quite focused on, even though nobody but her has mentioned it as the problem here. My own proposal for an indef block was explicitly based on those same diffs and on the strain that dealing with such terrible edits puts on constructive editors, but there was still nothing relevant from Immanuelle. What about you guys, did you look at them at all? Please review them. Bishonen &#124; tålk 13:57, 13 December 2023 (UTC).
 * This is inaccurate. Immanuelle said immediately below In those cases I was disabling a category I inappropriately added earlier. Turning it into a nonsense redlink category appears to have been their way to remove it from another category. That's a weird thing to do, and not the ideal way to do it, of course, but at the end of the day ... is it really a big deal? It's not in mainspace. Do you not have goofy things you've done outside of mainspace which, collected and judged in isolation, would look odd? I certainly do. &mdash; Rhododendrites  <sup style="font-size:80%;">talk \\ 21:04, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, immediately after Fram's post, ? OK, I see it. You reckon that was what she meant? I'm sorry, that post by Immanuelle was a bit of a blur to me, still with the unexpected focus on her own talkpage, and the rather extraordinary talk about "scheduling" articles to get G17 warnings at particular times (I can't find any G17 criterion, but maybe that's me), and I didn't pick up on what she meant by "those cases". I do see it now you mention it. OK, Immanuelle did address Fram's diffs, though not, in my opinion, in a helpful or sensible way. As for me doing goofy things outside mainspace, I have no idea what you mean. Bishonen &#124; tålk 21:28, 13 December 2023 (UTC).
 * While I wasn't the blocking admin, I supported it and here's a little more on why in the form of one example in addition to Bish's point above. Right now, she does not have the competency to be a productive editor within the project framework. In her original request, Immanuelle asked for This one causes a lot of problems because a lot of draft declines are done with explicit requests to merge the content into articles, or are declined because the article already exists under a different name. I want some kind of a system in place to allow for the merging from a declined draft, or the lifting of the restriction altogether., made the point that But I'm not sure most reviewers really think of that as encouragement to merge so much as an expression of "please don't resubmit this, and why aren't you editing the article that's already in mainspace which I wholly agree with and act same when I'm reviewing at AfC. Just because (generic) you want credit for an article, doesn't mean we need a separate article, please edit the information where it primarily exists rather than create redundancy. The material does not literally need to be merged, and if it did - someone else would have done so. While Immanuelle edits in under-trafficked areas, she is not the only editor who can handle these, and the project won't collapse without that information. Rather than understand this or take it under advisement, or ask if she doesn't understand, Immanuelle writes that she fears that even citing the same book chapter in a related mainspace article could be construed as self plagiarism violating the rule,. This is one example of the continued failure to get it despite multiple time-wasting AN* threads this year. Immanuelle wants to edit and is editing in good faith, but cannot or will not make the changes needed to be a productive editor. Indefinite isn't forever is a cliche thrown around here a lot, but I think some time away - reading as folks have suggested on her Talk - and not having to worry about 2K drafts and the AfC backlog will be a re-set. Maybe she can productively edit elsewhere in the interim, I don't know. But coming back and appealing with a manageable article limit is probably the only path to productive editing.  Star   Mississippi  14:13, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I argued against the block, but when it came, I felt a little like the admin was saving me from myself. I spent a few hours yesterday grappling with Draft:Bekko candy. None of the three drafts submitted to AfC (Oct 17, Dec 3, Dec 4 were well-conceived articles with reliable sourcing. I spent ages combing through library databases, google books, etc, seeking high-quality sources and ultimately decided that the best use of the information was two sentences at "hard candy" and one sentence at the article for a particular shrine. Immanuelle had already added the candy to the shrine article, with an overkill of low-quality sources and the unverified claim that many Kotohira Shrines sell the candy, whereas the sourcing only discusses one. I spent quite a while discussing editing with Immanuelle on their talk page  and even after I pointed them to WP:BACKWARD and WP:NOTDICT they would say things like I feel Ame (飴) as a kind of candy is likely notable. Yes, candy is notable. What reliable sources has Immanuelle seen about ame? None. Immanuelle is earnest, sincere, good faith, and frankly more hardworking than me -- but also, perhaps, not really listening or thinking about the feedback they receive so their work can have appropriate encyclopedic outcomes. I can't shake the feeling that if I had spent all day yesterday editing off and on while focusing on any other topic, it would have had a greater positive impact on the encyclopedia than three sentences about candy.  ~ L 🌸  (talk) 16:32, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This, it seems to me, is another problematic example; Draft:Bekko candy contains a sentence describing kamiyo-ame as "a kind of Bekko candy [ja] that is eaten by breaking it apart with a small hammer," cited to an English language source, and the quality of the English sources is one of the issues that was raised with the draft. However, the sentence looks to be a direct translation of the corresponding Japanese Wikipedia page on kamiyo-ame, which instead uses Japanese-language sources for corroboration—something that Immanuelle was probably trying to avoid mentioning in order to appear to be following the letter of the editing restrictions. This results in the awkward English "eaten by breaking it apart", following the Japanese grammatical construction which would really be "broken apart and then eaten" in English. It also ignores the more in-depth description on the actual English page that is cited, which notes that the reason for breaking the candy is to share it with family members who didn't visit the shrine. In the second ANI discussion I noted an isolated example of a red-letter violation of the merging restriction which included merging information from a declined draft and then moving the resulting merged article to Immanuelle's preferred page title. I have not gone back and tried to figure out whether there were more examples of that, but this appears to show a problematic desire to test the boundaries of the editing restrictions, which at the time were described as lenient. And I am not sure how many editors would be able to check Immanuelle's contributions against the Japanese Wikipedia in all cases, but I certainly do not have time to do so; WP:TNT was already being discussed in previous ANI threads. As an aside, the first ANI discussion resulted in the blocking of two sock accounts, so while I continue to agree that Immanuelle is editing in good faith, it may be necessary to monitor associated pages if the indefinite block is left in place. Dekimasu よ! 23:01, 13 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I would like to follow Star Mississippi and LEvalyn above by suggesting that Immanuelle has escaped blocks before because only uninvolved administrators may block, and to uninvolved people what is most clear about Immanuelle is their abundant energy and obvious good faith. Why block someone who is so obviously trying so hard to be useful? It's hard to justify - until you become involved. Then the issues are extremely apparent. And your involvement quickly becomes a timesink, as LEvalyn has found most recently. I am saddened by this block. I would not have argued in favour of a block here. But neither can I argue against one. The argument in favour is too clear; I just haven't the heart. My hope is not that this block is reversed, but that it becomes more like a forced wikibreak. Indefinite but not forever, indeed. -- asilvering (talk) 22:35, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I came here to find out why the user was blocked following their friendly notification at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Korea. Having reviewed the above, while I see no compelling reason to lift restrictions, I see even less compelling reason to block them. I'd support an unblock. Fram's revised restriction conditions are fine with me as well. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Disagree with block The editor is prolific, yes, sometimes naïve, but asks questions in good faith. I see them as a net benefit. I reviewed a great number of their drafts in the AFC backlog drive and accepted a far greater proportion than I pushed back for further work. 🇺🇦  Fiddle Timtrent  Faddle Talk to me 🇺🇦 10:54, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I also disagree with block for the reasons given by others. Skyerise (talk) 11:31, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I probably wouldn't have blocked Immanuelle at this time, but being aware of their history on this account and others, I'm increasingly convinced that an indefinite block is inevitable. When we talk about editors with CIR issues we often imagine someone who is trying to improve the encyclopedia but struggles to understand policies and guidelines. But looking at bizarre edits like the ones Fram linked above, or the >1 million byte Draft:Immanuelle/Draft Staggering, or really just their editing pattern as a whole, one gets the impression that Immanuelle's goal in editing here is primarily to satisfy some sort of odd internal compulsion. That this process sometimes results in the generation of acceptable content is a side effect. I think LEvalyn's comments about Bekko candy are instructive in this regard. I would like to see Immanuelle abide by their restrictions and become a better editor, but I'm not sure that's possible when their motives are fundamentally misaligned with Wikipedia's goals. Spicy (talk) 14:53, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Good block per LEvalyn and asilverling's comments above and on Immanuelle's talk page (which if you haven't read, you should read), and as examples of problems, the issues with Ikagashikome and Draft:Bekko candy. Levivich (talk) 15:15, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Good block even a limitless supply of the highest form of WP:CIVILITY cannot bypass basic WP:CIR issues. AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:20, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Bad block. I'm generally a believer that we should not treat prolific content creators favorably, but that obviously has to be the case when "competence" is the blocking rationale. They've shown efforts to change their behavior, and have successfully published many articles as is; there is no reason to believe that they are a net-negative to the project. Mach61 (talk) 17:31, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Also non-admin comment Good block. An awful lot of good faith and attempted mentoring has gone into Immanuelle and their previous accounts. At some point a block like this was inevitable. However well intentioned at some point to much of editors time has been expended. I wouldn't be opposed to an unblock based on Frams earlier terms if they can show they understand the problem.-- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:06, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Bad block. This is a shameful abuse of the administrator toolset and a failure to assume good faith. Something asilvering said stuck with me though, through reading through the discussion, where they mentioned that . I feel it appropriate in this instance to point out that's the entire point of WP:INVOLVED, in that an administrator (or even an editor) who is involved in a dispute is not likely to be of a clear mind and may not be able to make impartial decisions. It similarly seems that the blocking administrator has issued a block based on frustration (?) with Immanuelle rather than an actual issue that they have impartially assessed. I would further ask to explain their action a bit better than what essentially boils down to "their complaints were too tiresome to deal with". EggRoll97 (talk) 23:52, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Everyone knows that Immanuelle is trying hard and acting in good faith. I expect they will return to editing when they are ready to receive advice and act on it. Due to a desire to avoid being overly negative, it's not easy to write a rationale for a case like this—it's essentially an opinion regarding the balance between good intentions, time and resources, and outcomes. However, the rationale is nothing to do with frustration or something being tiresome. There are plenty of people supporting Immanuelle's edits but there are also quite a few either supporting a block or saying they thought one would occur. Apart from the support above, consider the comments at the end of this section of Immanuelle's talk. At any rate, any administrator is free to overturn the block—it does not have to be discussed with me because this WP:AN discussion is enough. In due course, this discussion will close and an unblock might be the outcome. Johnuniq (talk) 00:56, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hm. As much as I maintain that I don't believe the block is necessary, I am at least satisfied with the explanation provided, and accordingly retract with apologies my word choice of "abuse". EggRoll97 (talk) 01:27, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I would like to be clear that my point was not "when you become involved, you are annoyed, and want to block Immanuelle" (this would, indeed, be "the entire point of WP:INVOLVED"), but "when you become involved, you realize that the problems are much greater than was apparent to you when you were still uninvolved". Observe, for example, Dekimasu's extensive and damning comment in reply to LEvalyn above. -- asilvering (talk) 21:20, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, Dekimasu's comment really underlined it all over again for me. Did anyone ever figure out the reason she insisted on translating material she couldn't evaluate from languages she couldn't read? As you pointed out, he really demonstrated quite a potential for harm. Elinruby (talk) 01:09, 19 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm generally all for giving good-faith editors the chance to learn, but here I'm not seeing any direct acknowledgement that the edits Fram highlights are a problem, nor am I seeing a clear explanation of why that sort of thing won't happen again. I don't see how any outcome other than a block is reasonable. Indefinite is not infinite; a clear and convincing statement of what Immanuelle would do differently may be good enough for an immediate unblock. Vanamonde (Talk) 12:18, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Good block - Immanuelle has been a tiresome time and energy drain. They need to work on fewer items at once, research whether the translated articles have adequate sources before translating them, and general listen to the advise given by the numerous folks willing to give it. Repeatedly, none of this has been done. All second chances have been used up. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:22, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The ongoing discussion on their Talk, specifically this shows a continued lack of understanding of the problem. Regardless of whether there's support for the block (although I personally do), there was clearly no support for lifting of restrictions which seems to be her continued focus. If she's unblocked, she should not be allowed to appeal her restrictions for a minimum amount of time or we'll be right back here for a fourth time within a year. Star   Mississippi  16:54, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Gosh, what a shame: Someone so enthusiastic, so wanting to participate, and, to be honest, with something to offer, also so unable to see the issues with their editing. Good block, remembering that it isn't forever, because of the above and the talk page not-understanding-comments. Happy days, ~ LindsayHello 17:52, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Good block: This lengthy thread itself (and other ANI discussions in the past as well) is an example of the waste of community time and resources we had to try to get Immanuelle to edit constructively. This is a plain and simple case of WP:CIR, IMHO. ~ Prodraxis  ( Merry Christmas! ) 20:40, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I hope this doesn't open another can of worms when this thread really ought to conclude, but after this conversation on their Talk, I think Immanuelle should be required to go through the 2nd chance process in order to request an unblock. The concrete challenge posed by the 2nd chance process will, hopefully, make it clear whether Immanuelle has acquired the competence to produce valuable encyclopedic material. ~ L 🌸  (talk) 07:24, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * bad block I don't think users should be blocked indefinitely for submitting a good-faith appeal, even if that appeal is strongly inadvisable. The precipitating discussion here was closed quickly, as it should have been, and therefore wasted no more time than any other good-faith but doomed appeal attempt. The subsequent continuation was a failure on our part part to keep a closed discussion properly closed, and I can't in good faith blame that on her, because that way "wasting editor time" would just become a synonym for mob justice. That being said, she should understand (and demonstrate that she understands in her actions going forwards! whether that be in any future unblock request or just in general) that these editing restrictions are, right now, not a negotiable part of her being here, and following them both in letter and in spirit is the one thing that can keep her here. --Licks-rocks (talk) 12:28, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think we have a hard time dealing with editors who are genuinely in good faith are trying to improve but have enough CIR issues where it's simply not productive to help them. We can apply as much good faith as we can, but first and foremost we are an encyclopedia and so we need people to be contributing accurate information. Per Dekimasu's comments above (e.g. presenting legends as fact at Ikagashikome), Immanuelle is not and doesn't seem to have the competence to do so. So I will have to endorse the block. Galobtter (talk) 16:45, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Good block Coming completely fresh to all this - being well-meaning is not enough when your actions waste significant amounts of experienced editor time. Johnbod (talk) 21:41, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Good block per WP:CIR. Its good to be nice but at some point we've got to bite the bullet. Nigej (talk) 21:52, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I believe it is worth noting that, since their block here, Immanuelle is continuing to edit drafts in their userspace on Simple English Wikipedia. They are also blocked from article creation on simple-wiki, for the same reason they initially were put under editing restrictions here. Immanuelle does not appear to attempt to maintain simple English while editing simple-wiki, and, before put under editing restrictions regarding translation, used to "translate" articles from simple-wiki to en-wiki. While, obviously, a block here does not mean Immanelle cannot edit simple-wiki, I can hardly see this as evidence that their editing behaviour will improve if unblocked. -- asilvering (talk) 21:55, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Not everyone is suited for encyclopaedia writing and some people need to be disinvited to participate. We tried hard to support this editor to work with us and didn't succeed. Time to move on and close this. It's not helping Immanuelle or anyone else.—<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b> T/C 10:53, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Anyone watching this might like to see below. Johnuniq (talk) 03:47, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * We need to put a firm foot down on well meaning but incompetent editors. I see no reason to lift the block. Hemiauchenia (talk) 08:19, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Botched move needs fixing
See https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Independent_Counter-terrorism_Police_SubdivisionPolicji&action=history where the history is. First we have one user moving something to a new mispelled title, then another "fixing this" with copypaste of the content. I RfD the mispelled title before I realized the entire history is there. Sigh. Please revert and restore under original name, as the new English name (Independent Counter-terrorism Police Subdivision) may be ORish. <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * History merger and swaps (for the talk pages) done to fix up the copy-and-paste bogus "move".  now has the full original history and  has the redirect history that is at RFD.  I leave it to others to determine what the right name is.  But the edit history is in one place to be moved (with the right tool) around as decided, now. It has travelled from Samodzielny Pododdział Antyterrorystyczny Policji to Draft:Samodzielny Pododdział Antyterrorystyczny Policji to  to Independent Counter-terrorism Police SubdivisionPolicji to Independent Counter-terrorism Police Subdivision so far. Uncle G (talk) 06:21, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Persistent unhelpful IP edits on Singapore Wikipedia pages, despite attempts to engage in dialogue
A number of IP editors have adopted a few Singapore-related pages, particularly on politicians and elections, for themselves. They edit templates arbitrarily without heeding consensus, add and remove content without sources or edit summaries (often inaccurately), and refuse to engage in talk page discussions despite their edits being commonly reverted. Because of the similar nature of their edits, which are done often on the exact same pages and consecutively, I suspect that these IPs belong to a single editor. Even if they aren't, their persistent unexplained and unhelpful edits, combined with a lack of interest in engaging in the rules of Wikipedia, make their edits troublesome, difficult to deal with, and non-constructive — I seek, for at least the first two IPs, a block on their editing abilities.

Examples: Dawkin Verbier (talk) 08:21, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * unexplained template changes
 * unsourced content addition
 * confusing, unexplained edits
 * refusal to engage in dialogue; see User talk:121.6.221.174
 * unexplained template changes
 * unexplained content removal
 * unexplained content addition
 * refusal to engage in dialogue despite multiple warnings; see User talk:121.7.146.201
 * unexplained template changes
 * puzzling content removals
 * refusal to engage in dialogue or use edit summaries
 * unexplained template changes
 * puzzling content removals
 * refusal to engage in dialogue or use edit summaries
 * refusal to engage in dialogue or use edit summaries

Possible bug on Wikipedia
To begin with, I had no choice where to post my issue but here, even though I may not be in the right place. My issue regarding a welcoming message posted to new or unregistered users, particularly the one on my talk page, is that there is no space after the exclamation mark. This is situated at the first line of the concluding paragragh. Can this coding glitch be addressed?197.3.152.166 (talk) 20:59, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * may be able to explain. (Looking at the edit summary, it appears Aaron started with a template and added modifications, so that missing space might not be in a template.) Schazjmd   (talk)  21:07, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's basically why. I created a sandbox for the template at Template:W-graphical/sandbox and there's a missing space after the exclamation mark. After posting the welcome message I noticed that and fixed the sandbox, though I may have forgotten to edit your welcome message; sorry! <span style="color: rgb(6,69,173); text-decoration: inherit;">Aaron Liu (talk) 21:10, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, you probably want to post to the Help desk or maybe Teahouse next time unless you need some stuff that only administrators can do :p <span style="color: rgb(6,69,173); text-decoration: inherit;">Aaron Liu (talk) 21:18, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Year-long extended-confirmed protection of Lara Trump
Hello. Following discussion with Dennis Brown at his talk page, I am bringing his protection of the Lara Trump article to this noticeboard for wider review. In short, I am contesting it because extended-confirmed protection should not be used as a pre-emptive measure when no disruption from autoconfirmed accounts has occurred. I would be happy with a proportionate length of semi-protection. Thank you, Sdrqaz (talk) 12:51, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: I believe Sdrqaz is acknowledging substantial disruption from non-autoconfirmed accounts, just pointing out no disruption from autoconfirmed accounts. The deleted edits from non-autoconfirmed accounts are pretty offensive. --Yamla (talk) 13:06, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The protection level involves a broad range of disruptive behavior from a particularly nasty LTA. I believe the issue is that the LTA who has been posting threatening misogynistic messages about female celebrities has been known to use autoconfirmed accounts, and is particularly persistent in their abuse. An appropriate level and length of protection the subject of an ANI discussion during the last attack by the LTA a couple of weeks ago.I am not certain about the autoconfirmed disruption, and will look for the ANI thread.  Acroterion   (talk)   13:18, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1144. I would have to look farther to find evidence of autoconfirmed accounts doing this, but the accounts would easily have become autoconfirmed with a little more persistence and restraint. See the recent editing history at Lara Trump. I think IAR is a reasonable response.  Acroterion   (talk)   13:28, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That thread started by the very same sockmaster. It's extremely rare for CalebHughes to do vandalism with autoconfirmed accounts. In fact having blocked hundreds of his socks, I can't recall it happening once. Caleb doesn't have any particular interest in Lara Trump. He vandalises a huge range, hundreds of articles, and we really don't want to ECP them all. Brand new accounts = semi-protection. -- zzuuzz (talk) 13:43, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I wasn't sure about whether CH had used autoconfirmed accounts. I am OK with semi.  Acroterion   (talk)   13:49, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Dropping it down to semi seems like the best course of action. For what it's worth, I tend to set random expiry dates on protections in cases like this but he'll be back no matter what we do. <b style="color: teal; font-family: Tahoma">HJ Mitchell</b> &#124; <span style="color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman" title="(Talk page)">Penny for your thoughts? 14:28, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:ECP actually doesn't allow jumping straight from unprotected to ECP in most cases, but that rule gets broken pretty often. Not particularly a criticism of Dennis, mind you: We should either all do a better job at holding ourselves to that rule, or just get rid of it. As long as the rule is in place, though, if this is going to be ECP'd, it should be as an AE action (ARBBP or AMPOL), which is one of the four exceptions to the rule. That said, on the facts, I tend to agree with downgrading to semi. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 04:47, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I have dropped it to semi per the consensus above. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:21, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Unblock/unban request for 20 upper

 * This has been carried over from UTRS appeal #81911 pursuant to the discussion there.
 * found no recent evidence of sock puppetry, so checkuser consideration has been cleared.
 * Talk page access has been restored.
 * User was WP:3X banned earlier this year, and had been blocked earlier for one year by for unsourced content,  and other concerns which user has addressed in this request.
 * User was WP:3X banned earlier this year, and had been blocked earlier for one year by for unsourced content,  and other concerns which user has addressed in this request.

Request carried over below. (Formatting adjusted.)


 * I'm writing to request the removal of my block placed on me in February 2023. Despite the fact that the block log stated that I had been barred for repeatedly adding unsourced content, there were other reasons for my blocking. I was originally blocked because I included redundant deletion requests, produced original research, tried to game the system, removed talk page notices, failed to properly cite my sources, and included copyright infringement in publications.
 * I've since been studying copyright, and have devoted numerous hours to honing my skills in avoiding plagiarism and too-close paraphrasing. After using AI for several months, as well as YouTube tutorials, expert assistance, and publications, I now know enough about copyright to be able to paraphrase properly. In an attempt to see if I could create an account and make changes, I made my first sockpuppet account (Kodfounder). I had no knowledge of the sock puppetry policy at the time and naively believed it to be acceptable. After a failed attempt to request an unblock on my main account, I was furious and decided to edit using my sockpuppet. However, there was a catch: the sock account had been automatically blocked. At this point I understood that having multiple accounts while blocked was bad, but I instead issued an unblock request to deceive any administrators that this was an instance of collateral damage. The administrator who was evaluating it and who also happened to be a CheckUser was simply intrigued by this. As a result of the affirmative check, I was indefinitely blocked.
 * My fury increased as a result of the block on my sockpuppet, so I went ahead and built another sockpuppet (Dancing Dollar). I edited on this account for a few months in an effort to show the community that I could be a useful editor. I then made the decision to indirectly confess to my behavior after learning about the UTRS and standard offer, and as a result, I was banned per WP:3X. I gave up trying to maintain the act and decided it was for the best.
 * My sockpuppetry behavior was completely unnecessary, and only made things worse. I couldn't control my urge to edit Wikipedia. I feel awful for my sockpuppetry. I never intended for my behavior to be disruptive but failed to acknowledge the sockpuppetry policy. I humbly admit to using sockpuppets, and I have now permanently disclosed those accounts. While I was blocked, I went ahead and personally insulted some of my fellow Wikipedians (SandyGeorgia and UtherSRG), which caused access to my talk page to be suspended. My behavior was wrong, and I shouldn't have done it. My block was also brought on by a lack of understanding and communication (WP:CIR and WP:IDHT). I was incompetent to edit Wikipedia, as can be seen in the Administrators' noticeboard/Archive349#User:20 upper, because I disregarded straightforward directions, gave the impression that I hadn't read everything, and worst of all, I made no attempt to collaborate with the community.


 * Since then, I've come to understand the value of the community. Since my block, I've improved my communication abilities significantly, and I truly feel competent to edit Wikipedia. I have now been gone from Wikipedia for 6 months without any sock puppetry or block evasion. In that time frame, I've been editing Wikimedia Commons. I've read Wikipedia's policies and guidelines extensively and I'm happy to respond in my own words to any inquiries the community has on policy. If unblocked, I will concentrate on undoing vandalism, general copyediting, new page patrolling, and taking part in community forums like the Village Pump. Even though there are no justifications for my conduct, I am prepared to take action in order to demonstrate to the community that I genuinely care about this project and never intended any harm. I'd like my talk page access to be restored, and this request to be taken to the Administrators' noticeboard. Sorry for the long read.

carried over by-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 20:15, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * User:20 upper, you say a lot of the right things, but I can't help thinking that we couldn't believe what you said before, so why should we now? I note that you say you "couldn't control [your] urge to edit Wikipedia". Please try to control it: editing Wikipedia should be a pleasant experience, not an urge. And I also note that you say you will take part in new page patrolling. I don't think that someone with your history should be passing judgement on others' work. One last question (which you may choose not to answer for privacy reasons): how old are you? Phil Bridger (talk) 20:46, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Reply carried over-- @Phil Bridger: Regarding your initial query, I have changed my ways. In the past, I've said good things while acting inappropriately. However, I've since realized that socking is wrong, which is why I've chosen to acknowledge my actions and finally abide by the rules. Considering that I haven't socked, complied with the policies & guidelines, and edited Commons while away from Wikipedia, I believe that the block is no longer necessary. How old am I you ask, well, all I can say is that my brain has not fully developed, so yeah. 20 upper (talk) 4:46 pm, Today --carried over --  Deepfriedokra (talk) 00:12, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The whole "brain development lasts until 25" is a myth, for the record. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 18:08, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That just goes to show what I believe: that some teenagers are very mature and some old people are very immature. The difference is that young people almost always change faster, i.e. that the first differential is usually greater. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:05, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That's not really a myth, brain development still happens into the 20s, it's just that there is no hard boundary, e.g. 25 or 24 or 26. Laurence Steinberg is quoted in the piece you linked saying "There's consensus among neuroscientists that brain development continues into the 20s, but there's far from any consensus about any specific age that defines the boundary between adolescence and adulthood." It should be noted, though, that "brain development" is a relative measure, not an absolute one, so a 20-year-old may not be as mature as they will become, and yet already more mature than some other people will ever be. Levivich (talk) 19:39, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support conditionally Based on the ban on 3X, personal attacks made towards others, and their last socking activity being just over the usual 6 months, I'm hesitant to support at all a ban appeal, but their extensive editing history on Commons since is what tilts me over to supporting. However, given the first few problems, I'd only be able to support this on the condition that 20 upper is restricted to one account, and may be blocked without warning for any continuation of unsourced content additions. EggRoll97 (talk) 21:12, 15 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Support conditionally per EggRoll97 above.-- Deepfriedokra (talk) 22:19, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Very weak support - it deeply concerns me that an editor blocked for copyright violations now "know[s] enough about copyright to be able to paraphrase properly". To me, having spent several months working with AI tools to learn how to "paraphrase properly" strikes me as learning to more covertly copy from copyrighted works, rather than learning how to write properly in their own words. We also know that LLM content generators are capable of crafting completely fabricated references to support their completely fabricated content. It would be an oppose from me, but EggRoll97's assertion that their contributions to Commons have been productive tips me into the WP:LASTCHANCE column. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 23:06, 15 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Non-administrator note User:20 upper, if you want to be unblocked, you need to show the Wikipedia community that you are competent just like you are with your 700,000+ edits on commons.wikimedia.org, not only promise that you will change your behaviour. If your UTRS appeal gets accepted, this will likely be your last chance here. We, at English Wikipedia (as well as all other wikipedias), take a serious view against personal attacks. Personal attacks are very harmful towards the community and deter other users in a negative way. Also make sure you cite a reliable source when you add or change content. Furthermore, you must not use more than one account for inappropiate reasons (please also read about that). So to summarise, always stay cool while editing and do not repeat the same behaviour that caused you to be blocked. This is all so that the Wikipedia community can trust you again. ST7733B (talk) 02:41, 17 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Support conditionally per Eggroll97. ArvindPalaskar (talk) 16:53, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support conditionally as per Eggroll97's request above and also ST7733B's request that the user understand this is a last chance reprieve. The community has a tolerance level that once breached the offender may not be able to come back from. I believe 20 upper would also benefit from some mentoring/guidance though it needs to be understood that whether they select to accept mentoring/guidance or not they, and they alone, are still responsible for their edits. -- A Rose Wolf  16:04, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Changes to two MediaWiki pages
Could a sysop please implement the changes proposed here? Seems to be uncontroversial and hasn't had any objections for a while. To summarize, proposed changes are:

1. To delete MediaWiki:Abusefilter-warning-email.

2. To move MediaWiki:Abusefilter-disallow-email to MediaWiki:Abusefilter-disallowed-email.

Thanks. EggRoll97 (talk) 22:57, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Did those talk pages get notified? Perhaps the folks that created those pages would want to weigh in. – Novem Linguae  (talk) 23:05, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Notice tossed on the talk pages of both MediaWiki pages as well as the talk pages of both creators, and WP:VPT. EggRoll97 (talk) 23:58, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * VPT probably wasn't necessary, and I already pinged the creators, but I suppose it doesn't hurt. – Novem Linguae (talk) 02:08, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see any real issues with this, but, filter 247 is going to need to be updated, and I have a question that I haven't seen answered: I'm pretty sure there's a way to find which filters are using which warnings, like you see in any filter's history. Any idea where that is and can you confirm usage? -- zzuuzz (talk) 11:30, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Correct, filter 247 will need either an EFM or an admin (who will need to assign themselves EFM if not already assigned) to make the change to the template used to change it from disallow-email to disallowed-email. The warning-email template states it is used by filter 247, but since filter 247 is disallow, it does not actually use the warn template anymore. As for a way to find out which filters use it, I'm not sure of one, but I just checked all the filters manually, 247 is the only one using those pages as messages. EggRoll97 (talk) 21:56, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅, thanks. -- zzuuzz (talk) 23:06, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

CU check by Bbb23
I would like to draw your attention to a recent CU investigation conducted by administrator Bbb23, leading to the blocking of the user Dynasty Power. Despite the completion of the CU check, no conclusive results were presented by the administrator to affirm the alleged connection between the investigated account and Dynasty Power. Upon inspecting the CU check page, it is evident that the administrator proceeded swiftly with the blocking action without providing explicit evidence or establishing a clear connection between the account in question and Dynasty Power. This lack of transparency raises concerns about the validity of the decision and the fairness of the process. In the interest of maintaining a just and accountable administrative environment, I kindly request other administrators to conduct a thorough and impartial review of this case. It is essential to ensure that any punitive actions are based on concrete evidence and adhere to established protocols, fostering a sense of trust and fairness within our community. Your prompt attention to this matter is appreciated, and I look forward to a resolution that upholds the principles of transparency and due process in our administrative procedures. 62.74.55.242 (talk) 09:15, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You are confused, no CU investigation occurred there. --Yamla (talk) 10:13, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Then why was Dynasty Power blocked? 62.74.55.242 (talk) 10:33, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:DUCK. —  Wasell ( T ) 10:37, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Dozens upon dozens of questionable redirects created by now-blocked user
Today I've discovered that Special:Contributions/JailBrokenIPODGoneWild, a user now blocked for harassment, had created dozens upon dozens of questionable redirects related to public transportation. The redirects are all from color terms to a specific transportation line or service in systems where lines are depicted with colors on maps but not referred to by color in conversation or in official operations. The problem is that these redirects have qualifiers in front of the color terms like "Dark" and "Light", when nobody speaks like that, at least not in America. Nobody will say "Take the Dark Red Line"; people just say "Take the Red Line". If a given system has multiple lines or services that share a core color with different shades, the core color title should be a disambiguation page. Example of redirects that I just turned into disambiguation pages today are Green Line (Metra) and Orange Line (Metra). Again, very few if anyone would actually use the color qualifiers in conversation and thus I'm led to conclude that these redirects are implausible. The issue is the sheer quantity of them - way too many to list at RFD. How do we proceed from here? Taking Out The Trash (talk) 21:52, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia talk:Redirects for discussion. – Novem Linguae (talk) 22:09, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Holy crap. This user has created a whopping 12,000 redirects, and that's not including the 500ish additional redirects that have already been deleted. There's no way that all of those are valid. This may be a bigger issue than it seems on the surface. Taking Out The Trash (talk) 22:00, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Some redirects appear valid (e.g. List of countries by calling code) but the majority appear to be nonsense. I think we need community consensus to allow admins to review and delete at their discretion. GiantSnowman 22:03, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Looks like a 13k editor that was not blocked for socking, so WP:G5 and WP:NUKE is not an option here. Their activity and the block were both over a year ago. Looks like they were on the redirect autopatrol list at the time of their blocking, so all their stuff got autopatrolled. RAL at the time of their blocking, with them on it. – Novem Linguae (talk) 22:07, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * (from RFD): This is, uh, not good... The worst part is that many of the redirects look plausible, at least the most recently created ones. I think the best way to proceed is to have a formal, community-wide discussion on Are Such Redirects Helpful or Valid, preferably at the Village Pump, and if community consensus is that they are not, and that they would be deleted at RfD, then mass-delete them as a community action. Cremastra (talk) 22:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This user has had plenty of redirects come to RfD before and I think they should probably continue to be handled that way; I fear that the mere fact of being blocked for an unrelated reason could place unwarranted scrutiny upon these redirects. While some of these redirects may be undesirable, their problems seem at a glance to generally be in the class of "implausible search term", not very harmful, rather than "targets wrong place", actively harmful. At the least, the most recent redirects are very helpful creations.  J 947  ‡ edits 01:51, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I skimmed through a few hundred of these redirects and most seem at first glance to lie somewhere in the space between "probably fine" and "implausible search term"; nothing Neelixual. Is there a way to find the ones that have inbound links? Folly Mox (talk) 03:06, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Was it unrelated? Was it for harassment at all? It is unclear from Special:Diff/1106477198 what prompted the 2022 block by Daniel Case, or the determination that this was a trolling/harassment-only account. I haven't found any noticeboard or talk page discussion since the 2009 discussion of the creation of redirects at Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive579. I haven't found a single talk page contribution from this account in 13 years, so it is perplexing what the trolling/harassment was. And the block log entry is no help. Uncle G (talk) 02:33, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Looks like it was in response to this AIV report, which just expressed concerns about the redirects. I'd be curious to hear how people reached the conclusion that this was a vandalism-only account/troll: at a glance most of the redirects appear to be pretty clearly in good faith, whatever one might think of their usefulness. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 02:51, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

I RfD'd a few of JBIGW's creations, and wasn't surprised to see them blocked eventually. (I'm not dismissing Uncle G's concerns about the procedure of the block, but in either case that level of WP:COMMUNICATE was going to lead to a block sooner or later.) My perception of JBIGW's redirects in general, though, is similar to Folly Mox': Most probably weren't worth creating, but at the same time don't need to be deleted. Before we go too far talking about a CSD X3 or whatever, could someone put together a list of, I dunno, 20 redirects they think would almost certainly fail RfD, and say how many redirs they had to go through to compile that list? Right now it's hard to get a feel for the shape of the problem, and if it is such a massive issue, this shouldn't be too hard to put together. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 04:50, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It is more that Taking Out The Trash said above that JailBrokenIPODGoneWild was blocked for harassment and J947 commenting that this was unrelated and could result in unwarranted scrutiny. But from what Extraordinary Writ has turned up the block log entry is misleading, the block was actually directly about the redirects, and they were characterized by Sir Joseph as vandalism. That report was made on 2022-08-24; the most recently deleted redirects, created on 2022-08-20, were the ones from Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 18; and the most recently not-deleted redirects were the likes of Postal code (United States) and List of Internet top-level domains (country) which may be useless, but which as Extraordinary Writ says do not really say vandalism-only account let alone trolling/harrassment. They also contain KOP, Pennsylvania and 84, PA created that day which seem unlikely but conceivable search terms that are fairly obviously in line with the target articles's contents.  And from the previous month Geography of State College, Pennsylvania and its ilk seem uncontroversial and Government of Veracruz actually got used by someone else in an article. So I think that you are right, and both a case for vandalism and a case for "Holy crap. 12,000 redirects" need to be made with examples. Uncle G (talk) 10:47, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * For the record, I think Postal code (United States) is a great redirect. How am I supposed to remember what they call their postal codes? Zippers? Something like that.  Cremastra (talk) 15:15, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * In this case, the best solution is to have Postal codes have a list of links to individual countries' pages where they exist (possibly as a navigation box); I believe that parantheticals generally make unneeded redirects, except where either there is the potential for a future article, or where an ENGVAR-alternate article with the parenthetical already exists (e.g Orange (color)). Animal lover &#124;666&#124; 08:58, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm generally lenient on redirects – my criterion is, is this potentially useful to a reader?, as they are after all WP:CHEAP and generally harmless (they are usually a small net-positive, even if they seem unusual), but we should probably leave theses specifics to later. (And I'm aware I'm probably not wholly within policy with my views). 🎄Cremastra 🎄 (talk) 13:05, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

On the block of User:沖倉瑶里
On Special:Diff/1187948591, User:沖倉瑶里 (CentralAuth) was reported to AIV as a "Japanese LTA", probably recognized as a sock of w:ja:LTA:ISECHIKA, a WMF-banned user. However, this is likely to be a false accusation. ISECHIKA tends to create socks on jawikinews (like this) and autocreate accounts on other ja projects (沖倉瑶里 created their account on jawiki instead). Additionally, the LTA often engages in disruptive edits like adding insulting comments on articles about people (like this, adding "gross") or rewriting valid descriptions to invalid ones by replacing characters (like this, rewriting 水 "water" to 氷 "ice" in a company's name). These tendencies aren't observed in any of 沖倉瑶里's contributions on jawiki, and the edits aren't even disruptive. It looks to me like an innocent user was wrongly reported as an LTA, so I would like to request a review of the block. Thank you. Dragoniez (talk) 09:51, 25 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I assume you’ve approached the blocking Administrator and failed to convince them? And have notified them that you’ve posted here? Doug Weller  talk 09:57, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Note that the person who made the AIV report also asked for the account to be unblocked here. I've notified the blocking admin. <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x Deadbeef →∞ (talk to me) 10:04, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you 0xDeadbeef, and I apologize if I failed to follow how this kind of matter is usually processed on enwiki. Dragoniez (talk) 10:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Happy to unblock if there's been a mistake. It would have been quicker just ti ask on my talk page but never mind. <b style="color: teal; font-family: Tahoma">HJ Mitchell</b> &#124; <span style="color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman" title="(Talk page)">Penny for your thoughts? 10:23, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the prompt reply! @Dragoniez: on enwiki, it is usually preferred to contact the blocking admin before posting at the noticeboards, please keep that in mind in the future :) <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x Deadbeef →∞ (talk to me) 10:29, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I appreciate all your help. And I WILL keep that in mind. Thank you all again! Dragoniez (talk) 10:34, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

An IRC for users who need to discuss their onsite relations
Say that I need to have a conversation about onsite interpersonal relations. It need not necessarily be confidential, but it is the sort of talk that I would rather only users rungs on the ladder higher than I (the admins) be reading, and I would detest it appearing anywhere in the site's talkspace and being recorded and logged in a page history. I thought there was an IRC for lower-ranking users like me to discuss things like this with admins only, but as it turns out, I might be wrong. This conversation would be about me, and my request for one cannot go ignored. I checked the IRCs at WP:IRC, and not one of them seemed like the chat room suited for general discussions related to onsite editing to be read only by admins and the users starting them. All I have left is this noticeboard with nowhere else to look and no better place to go to. I still want the conversation, but not so openly and definitely not on this noticeboard. Is there a place for such discussions that I have been unaware of?  Free Media  Kid$  10:06, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If there's any sort of privacy-related aspect, always err on the side of caution and contact the oversighters. But from what I can gather from your message, it sounds like you just need to find an admin (or other user) you trust and send them an email. I'm not aware of anything on IRC or the like that would be quite what you're looking for (you can't access #wikipedia-en-admins, and #wikipedia-en-revdel is designed only for revdel requests), but maybe someone more familiar with those programs can correct me. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 17:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Assuming this has something to do with User_talk:FreeMediaKid! - Wikipedia values transparency and everything within reason should be conducted on-wiki. If you still think something needs to be oversighted, instructions on how to contact the oversight team were provided in that section. In my opinion the request does not meet the threshold for either oversight or revision-deletion, but the oversight team are the experts on that. By emailing them, there is a record kept of your request internally, which is also advantageous for transparency reasons to the alternative (which is IRC where no records are kept). Daniel (talk) 18:37, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with Extraordinary Writ that emailing an admin of your choice seems like a good way to handle this. – Novem Linguae (talk) 11:34, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @FreeMediaKid! Admins are not "higher" up on the ladder than you are. They have permissions that allow them to do things like delete articles or block users, but other than that they are just users like you and me. Their opinions don't count any more than any other users. Counterfeit Purses (talk) 18:44, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * For the record, there is an IRC channel that fits the bill of "admins are the only ones who will see it" - . All admins in the channel are voiced and only admins can see what is posted by non-admins. Primefac (talk) 23:43, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

To clarify, I was not talking about oversight, although the original post did have the appearance of being about that. I apologize for not being clear. Instead, I was talking about my interactions with users dating back years. I admit, it being that far back might make such dwelling on the past seem frivolous, but the thought has persisted long enough that I now find myself needing to talk with an experienced user, an admin being a good start. If trading emails is the only way to go about it, okay. Also, excuse me for treating site adminship as some sort of noble profession. To be fair, "superiors" did actually come to mind as I typed the original post, but I decided against using that term as I sought to avoid overtly exalting admins, who are, after all, "just users like you and me."

Indeed, I did email the oversight team not long after the start of this discussion to suppress bits of revisions of my talk page that did not need to be posted then.  Free Media  Kid$  00:32, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Any Wiktionary admins out there?
One of our LTAs has decided to vandalize there. Check out the entry on "subglacial", but be prepared. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:26, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Solo curated list of sites to slander
First of all, most of the links, are not listed under original sources, which suggest insider information or an insider posting.

Generative AI portion is not literally fake as per the original introductory definition which feeds the theory of a vendetta from the one user. Nearly the entire article is written by one user further suggests a strong bias.

Lastly, the idea that Wikipedia will take a stand of what it determines to be fake news sites is a slippery slope and easily weaponized 65.222.189.194 (talk) 02:53, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Have you considered bringing this up at the article's talk page? Beach drifter (talk) 03:00, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It was deleted from their 65.222.189.194 (talk) 03:02, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It was deleted from their page. 65.222.189.194 (talk) 03:03, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Please can you explain what was deleted from which page? I have had a quick look at Talk:List of fake news websites and, apart from the automated archiving of idle discussion threads, the only things I see being removed from there recently were blatant attempts at trolling. DanielRigal (talk) 13:16, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My concern is it almost feels like Wikipedia is taking a responsibility way beyond its purview.
 * I support a white list (which we have) but a black list feels a bit much. 38.127.143.248 (talk) 15:05, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * What? Seriously, I don't know what you're arguing here. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 18:22, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Page move revert needed
Lebanese Forces (Lebanese Resistance) needs to be moved back to Lebanese Forces (Christian militia). This isn't a report but the move was undiscussed doesn't appear neutral. Please let me know if there is a more suitable venue at which I can request such a revert. Thanks, Nythar  (💬-🍀) 22:08, 28 December 2023 (UTC)


 * @Nythar ✅ per WP:RMUM, please use WP:RMTR in the future. --Trialpears (talk) 22:27, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – January 2024
News and updates for administrators from the past month (December 2023).

Administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg Clovermoss
 * Gnome-colors-view-refresh.svg Dennis Brown
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Julia W · Marasmusine · PBS



CheckUser changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg Aoidh · HJ Mitchell · Sdrqaz · Spicy · ToBeFree · Vanamonde93 · Z1720
 * Gnome-colors-view-refresh.svg Maxim
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Enterprisey · Izno · SilkTork

Oversighter changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg Aoidh · Firefly · Sdrqaz · ToBeFree · Z1720
 * Gnome-colors-view-refresh.svg Maxim
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Enterprisey · Izno · SilkTork

Arbitration
 * Following the 2023 Arbitration Committee elections, the following editors have been appointed to the Arbitration Committee:, , , , , , ,.
 * Following a motion, the Arbitration Committee rescinded the restrictions on the page name move discussions for the two Ireland pages that were enacted in June 2009.
 * The arbitration case Industrial agriculture has been closed.

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Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 11:53, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

IRC Ban Apppeal
Hello, I originally posted this on my talkpage with the Unblock template, but was advised the template was for unblocks only and was suggested to post this here.

I will post my post again here (I just made a minor grammar change here)

The post:

)Hello. Years ago, I was making too many bad requests on the EN Wikipedia Revdel Channel (I don't remember the specific year as it has been around 4.5ish (?) years since it happened. Basically, my requests fell nowhere within the stipulated criterion for the request to be considered, and I was disrupting the channel more than I was making valid requests, so for that reason I was banned from that channel (I was a lot younger when that took place (I am a lot older and mature now (But for privacy, can't state my actual age here). Since then, I have learned what REVDEl is, what qualifies for it (hard to list examples here as its' not really possible) and when and when not to request it. I have learned from the ban/block, and I fully take responsibility for my actions in the past. If it is possible, I am requesting if I can be unbanned. Thank you for your time.

Thanks.

-- つがる  Talk to つがる:)  🍁 02:06, 29 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Do you recall your username on IRC? Do you know who banned you? – bradv  02:12, 29 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't remember my IRC username. As for who did the ban, I can't remember. I do remember at all correctely (?) left me a message about the ban, but I don't think he was the one who did the ban. Its been too long and I can't remember, But I haven't went in the IRC channel for REVDEL ever since I was banned  つがる   Talk to つがる:)  🍁 02:16, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If you don't remember, chances are no one else does either. So if you have a need for revdel or oversight help, the channel is available to you. (Please note that we have moved from Freenode to Libera.chat, so you will need to reconfigure your client.) –  bradv  02:36, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I do remember you. Your username at the time was "Thegooduser", and I do remember that we banned you from -revdel many years ago. That was back when Wikimedia projects still used Freenode as their IRC network; nowadays, we use Libera Chat, and it appears that the ban on Freenode never got carried over to Libera. I think it is safe to say that you are effectively unbanned and are welcome to join -revdel again if you need to request revision deletion. Mz7 (talk) 06:33, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I find it a bit odd that you don't know your IRC username. That is needed both to login and to issue the unban command. Anyway, have you tried visiting the channel recently to confirm that you are still actually banned? – Novem Linguae (talk) 10:27, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Any COI experts in the house?
I've come across an article, Antoine Schneck that I tagged as COI. It seems a major contributor that has been maintaining the page, and the French language version, is actually the artist's partner. And now they've come to the talk page to ask why it's different to them paying a third party to write and and asking for the COI tag to be removed because the artist can no longer use the Wikipedia page in their personal advertising due to it. It seems pretty clear the page is being maintained for the sole purpose of advertising for the artist subject with massive COI involvement. Any advice? <b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b> <i style="color: Blue;">talk</i> 13:19, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Just a first tought: does he really pass WP:ARTIST, and do we have sources for it? If there are doubts, an AfD might be the way forward....if it gets deleted so be it. If not: the AfD is a chance to get more eyes on it. The article in FR-Wikipedia is virtually the same as the one here, btw., but has survived an AfD discussion over there (although the sources used were considered "light"). Lectonar (talk) 13:43, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:COIN might be a good noticeboard for this in the future. The article doesn't look too bad to me. I just made an edit to remove a word of promo (the word "leading" in "a cameraman for a leading French TV channel"). I don't really see any additional promo in the article. It now has the correct factual tone. Now its major problem is that it is a BLP that is lacking citations for some of the early career sentences. Overall this looks like a fairly normal article for a visual artist. It is common for these articles to list their works and exhibitions. It may seem counter-intuitive, but once the article's issues are cleaned up, the COI tag should be removed. The COI tag is only for if the article has demonstrable, articulatable issues that are a direct result of COI editing. At this point I'd suggest tagging the article as Orphan and BLP sources, and removing the other tags, including COI. The authority control template with 6 entries hints that this person passes WP:NARTIST, but would take an AFD to find out for sure. Hope this helps! – Novem Linguae (talk) 10:42, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Closure request for "Inside Voices / Outside Voices"
Per my inquiry at WP:HD, I am requesting a procedural close or snowball close for Articles for deletion/Inside Voices / Outside Voices (2nd nomination). --Jax 0677 (talk) 13:08, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Wrong venue
Need to removed the words Israeli-occupied and re[lace with '...the Golan Heights in the country of Israel,...' 68.229.190.208 (talk) 15:41, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello! This is an edit request, which should be done on the talk page of the article mentioning it, rather than on here. Chaotıċ Enby   (t · c) 15:49, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

2024 Arbitration Committee
The Arbitration Committee welcomes the following new and returning arbitrators following their election by the community. The two-year terms of these arbitrators formally begin on 1 January 2024:

Upon meeting the Wikimedia Foundation's criteria for access to non-public personal data and signing the Foundation's non-public information confidentiality agreement, all incoming arbitrators will be subscribed to all Committee-managed email lists, assigned the CheckUser and Oversight permissions for use in office, and given access to the CheckUser and Oversight queues on the VRTS system.

We also thank our outgoing colleagues whose terms end on 31 December 2023:

Outgoing arbitrators are eligible to retain the CheckUser and Oversight permissions, to remain active on cases accepted before their term ended, and to remain subscribed to the functionaries' and arbitration clerks' mailing lists following their term on the committee. To that effect:
 * Stewards are requested to remove the permission(s) noted from the following outgoing arbitrators, who have not elected to retain them, after 31 December 2023:
 * CheckUser: Enterprisey, Izno, SilkTork
 * Oversight: Enterprisey, Izno, SilkTork
 * Outgoing arbitrators are eligible to remain active on cases opened before their term ended if they wish. Whether or not outgoing arbitrators will remain active on any ongoing case(s) will be noted on the proposed decision talk page of affected case(s).
 * All outgoing arbitrators will remain subscribed to the functionaries' mailing list, with the exception of Enterprisey, who has elected to be unsubscribed.
 * All outgoing arbitrators will be unsubscribed from the clerks-l mailing list, with the exception of Izno, who has elected to remain subscribed.

For the Arbitration Committee, KevinL ( aka L235 · t · c) 04:24, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Discuss this at: 

Welcome user
Can you please take a look at the username. I tried to welcome the user after the user themselves made anti vandalism efforts. It is currently a problem because the page is protected that only Adkins, template editors and page movers can create it, and suggested to come here or at WP:RFPP/E. Please take action as needed, maybe advise the user to change their username because non Admins, template editors or page movers can't initiate their talk page. Thank you. Toad ette ( Merry Christmas, and a happy new year ) 12:38, 25 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I’ve welcomed them, that doesn’t seem like a new user to me. Seawolf35 <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">T--C 14:18, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, their username is currently against the title blacklist, but they were created on the 22nd of this month. Not sure how their account creation didn't get blocked by the TB. EggRoll97 (talk) 14:23, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * According to Merriam-Webster the word "snigger" goes back to 1706 in its current meaning of scornful laughter. It has no racial connotations and is often used in reliable sources. The "n-word" did not become a slur until decades later. Personally, I think this username is a bad idea, but I am not convinced that it is a policy violation. Cullen328 (talk) 09:32, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Scunthorpe problem. You're right, it's a common word that just happens to contain the letters of a racial slur in it. So that could be causing some filter issues. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 17:35, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Could the word "snigger" be added to MediaWiki:Titlewhitelist? Animal lover &#124;666&#124; 19:14, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Off topic to the ability to welcome this user: the name was automatically flagged at WP:UAA but I declined the notification for the reason given by Cullen328. It's not uncommon for legitimate usernames to contain strings that would be offensive if separated from the whole, and a review of their edits is then required to determine the context. Also agree with Cullen328 that I personally think this username is a bad idea because "scornful laughter" isn't an ideal editing approach. But overall, while this was a legitimate name to be flagged for attention it wasn't one that warranted an immediate UAA block. -- Euryalus (talk) 22:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The user has now renamed themselves to . Mz7 (talk) 07:19, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Why does this new account smell like an experienced editor? They found WP:UTM on their 3rd edit. At best it's a clean start account, at worst it's a sock. <b style="color: #0000FF;">OhanaUnited</b><b style="color: green;">Talk page</b> 17:37, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

NARMADA PUSHKARAMS 2024
Sir, Good Afternoon. it is seen that you had mentioned the dates of upcoming NARMADA PUSHKARAMS as April 22–May 5, 2024. As per Telugu Panchangam, the dates of Narmada Pushkarams are shown as " from 01-05-2024 to 12-05-2024. This creates confusion. Kindly appraise me the exact 12 day period of Narmada Pushkar for the year 2024.                                                                                  THANKING YOU SIR                                                                                    I.S.N MURTHY @ HYDEARABAD 49.204.29.125 (talk) 07:05, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This question is best asked at Talk:Narmada Pushkaram. I will do so. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:11, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

S201050066 again
User:S201050066 has resurfaced and posted messages on my talk page and User:Tenryuu. These are his accounts: It seems he is now able to create accounts again. Andykatib (talk) 11:43, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Special:Contributions/2001:56B:3FE4:490F:0:58:2B00:4D01
 * Special:Contributions/S201050066 number 20.3
 * Special:Contributions/S201050066 number 21.3


 * Thanks for your help in reverting S201050066's attacks. I have filed a report on WP:ANI. Andykatib (talk) 11:44, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * There is a 22.3 now. —<span style="font-family:Poppins, Helvetica, Sans-serif;">Panamitsu (talk) 11:49, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for doing some of the reversions, Andykatib. Could we get yet another IP range block with account creation disabled? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 16:13, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Proposed motion to create Reliable source consensus-required restriction procedures and add the restriction to the Lithuania topic area
The Arbitration Committee is considering a motion to amend the procedures and to extend reliable source requirements to Lithuania as a topic area. Comments are welcome at the relevant request for clarification.

For the Arbitration Committee, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:33, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia Hack - Vandalism
DuckDuckGo search for "Seven laws of Noah" brings up a preview page with homophobic hate speech, "https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Seven_Laws_of_Noah Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia The Seven Laws of Noah include prohibitions against worshipping idols, cursing God, murder, adultery and Abominable Detestable Hideous h*m*s*xuality, Abominable Detestable Hideous tr*nss*xuality, Abominable Detestable Hideous imitation of the opposite sex Abominably Detestably Hideously in ..." 71.211.134.163 (talk) 23:23, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That would be due to some recent vandalism at Seven Laws of Noah which has been reverted with the IP being blocked. Johnuniq (talk) 23:31, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Should it be revdel or no? Chaotıċ Enby   (t · c) 23:56, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Alexf has now done so. DMacks (talk) 00:51, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Wrong Telephone Country Code for Bangladesh !
Hi, I don't know why and who made this mistake, but the Telephone Country Code (+690) for Bangladesh is WRONG. Actually the Phone code for Bangladesh is +880 So, could you please correct the phone code for Bangladesh in your Wikipedia. Thanks in advance. 120.18.89.131 (talk) 03:07, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Thanks for alerting us! DMacks (talk) 03:11, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

RFC closure review request - Enrique Tarrio

 * RFC
 * Follow-up discussion with closer
 * Diff of closure
 * Notification to closer
 * Notification to closer

Discussion focused on whether the infobox image should be of the subject posed in a suit or a candid at a rally. By vote count, opinions were split close to equally, but the main rationale against the "suit" image was not founded in policy and this was not addressed in the closure statement. The closer also closed the RFC as "No Consensus" but has since clarified that they interpret that to mean "Consensus against both options" and used that result to justify negating the previous consensus for the suit image, which has been the lead image in the article since mid 2021. I believe both the closure and the follow-up interpretation merit review. VQuakr (talk) 04:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Endorse the no consensus closure, and interpret as reverting to the consensus of the previous RFC, meaning the suit image should still be used. EggRoll97 (talk) 05:59, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I do want to clarify that while there was a discussion that resulted in unanimity amongst the five participants, there was not a previous RFC to my knowledge. VQuakr (talk) 06:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The RFC clearly established that there's no consensus to include the very controversial promotional image uploaded by an SPA photographer -- its restoration would likely constitute a behavior issue at the point.    Meanwhile the alternative also proved controversial, with multiple editors suggesting no image would be better than either of the candidates.    We should keep looking -- lots of people have spoken of the possibility of using a  cropped mugshot, that's probably the solution. Feoffer (talk) 06:32, 29 December 2023 (UTC)


 * [uninvolved] Partial endorse - Looking at the discussion, I find the arguments against the suit image to be the strongest. Fundamentally, images on Wikipedia are supposed to be an aid to understanding, and I think those supporting the alternative effectively argued that the suit photo, while, yes, a professional studio shot, does not aid the reader's understanding of the subject (and in fact presents an impression of the subject incongruous with the way we write about him). That said, those supporting A have a good point that B isn't ideal either, but I don't see those arguments as disqualifying as the arguments against the suit photo. We settle for subpar images all the time -- the important thing is that they aid understanding. We're not identifying a bird species such that the best image is always going to be the sharpest, clearest photo depicting a typical specimen; we're determining how best to illustrate an article on an American far-right activist and convicted seditionist, and I think that kind of distinction -- and its relation to our guidelines about what an image is supposed to do -- comes through in the arguments. TL;DR - It does look like there's consensus against the suit image, but I'd just call it "no consensus about a replacement". &mdash; Rhododendrites  <sup style="font-size:80%;">talk \\ 06:53, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how much weight should be put into arguments that a professional studio photo doesn't aid the reader's understanding of the subject. As a practical matter, we seem quite happy to use such photos of politicians, judges, CEOs and heck plenty of other people even when alternatives exist. While I've sometimes seen arguments against this saying they're too promotional, this rarely seems to be accepted so I'm unconvinced there's any community consensus on this, probably the opposite in fact. The only minor difference here is that professional studio photos of others will often photograph them in something akin to their more everyday clothes, which may very well be a suit for a politician. Although even that can be complicated and it's hardly uncommon they dress different generally in a way that comes across as more professional than they do most of the time. I mean for someone in the military they'll often be in their dress uniform even if they're in a role which means they spend most of the time in their regular uniform. (There's also the question of how we should interpret people encountering the subject. For example, for a politician especially a member of a legislature, there might be dress codes requiring them to dress in a certain way. And people might see them on TV or in the legislature dressed in this way. But practically, people might be more likely to actually see them in person at a rally or walkabout or constituency office or whatever where they might dress different.) Nil Einne (talk) 12:45, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * we seem quite happy to use such photos of politicians, judges, CEOs [...] The only minor difference here is that professional studio photos of others will often photograph them in something akin to their more everyday clothes - That's not a minor difference. A studio shot of a politician looking like a politician makes sense for a lead image. If we had 10 so-so photos of a politician looking like a politician and one of a politician in a baseball uniform even though nothing in the article talks about a baseball, we wouldn't use the latter even if it were a perfect 30 megapixel studio shot because it doesn't aid understanding. Likewise the studio shot here does not aid understanding. It can always be added to the article further down if folks feel like it's important, but the arguments that it shouldn't be the lead photo are IMO persuasive. &mdash; Rhododendrites  <sup style="font-size:80%;">talk \\ 14:40, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * this seems like verging into rehashing the RFC rather than the close, but I do want to clarify that the reason we wouldn't use the image of the politician in the baseball uniform is because it would be confusing, not because it didn't look like the politician. It is an imperfect analogy because anyone can wear a suit, and wearing a suit doesn't cause confusion in the same way that a baseball uniform would. The primary purpose of a lead image in a biography should be to see what the person looks like. Wearing a suit doesn't detract from the purpose of being an identifiable image; face turned to the side and wearing hat and sunglasses does. VQuakr (talk) 18:07, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I understand that's your perspective. I'm saying I found the arguments against that perspective to be stronger in the discussion. We're not identifying a species of animal, we're illustrating a subject about a specific person to aid understanding of that person. The color of the subject's eyes, the shape of his pores, etc. do not aid understanding as much as seeing him engaged in the activity he is best known for. &mdash; Rhododendrites  <sup style="font-size:80%;">talk \\ 18:19, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok but getting back to the closure review, "my perspective" is based on PAG. MOS:IMAGEQUALITY specifically calls for a portrait photo in the lead. "the color of the subject's eyes" is a weird way to say "what the subject looks like" but yeah, that is absolutely the main purpose of a lead image. VQuakr (talk) 18:49, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "portrait photograph" doesn't mean "with fancy clothes in a studio" -- it means it's a photo taken with intent to depict the subject. Going back to my example, we could have a portrait photograph of a politician in some random non-politiciany outfit and we would still use the photo that makes them look like a politician. That guideline also says For example, a painting of a cupcake may be an acceptable image for Cupcake, but a real cupcake that has been decorated to look like something else entirely is less appropriate. The policy, WP:IUP says The purpose of an image is to increase readers' understanding of the article's subject matter. WP:NPOV includes images as a possible WP:WEIGHT issue. There's plenty. It's not the same calculation the subject uses to decide on a profile picture; it's what best aids understanding and accurately depicts the full subject. I feel like I'm repeating myself, though, so I'll leave this be as it waits for additional input. &mdash; Rhododendrites  <sup style="font-size:80%;">talk \\ 19:08, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The closer was right to find no consensus, but wrong to understand that as consensus against both. The correct finding would have been "no consensus, restore the status quo ante".—<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b> T/C 08:01, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree that no consensus seems a fair close of that discussion. However as others have said, the correct outcome of a no consensus here is to keep the previous image until consensus is found for a new alternative. In other words, it's fine to encourage continued discussion, but not to say the previous images can't be used. Nil Einne (talk) 12:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I would add that there's no chance in hell that an NFCC image could be used for simple identification of the subject who not only is a living person (albeit currently in prison) but for whom free images do exist. And so any discussion that involves the premise it could is a non-starter. In case there's some confusion, while Non-free content is technically only a guideline, the living person issue actually comes from the foundation's wmf:Wikimedia Licensing Policy so is not even something we can just change by ourselves. I mean if someone really wants to petition the WMF to change the policy, they can try I guess, but until that happens we should just ignore the possibility it could. Nil Einne (talk) 12:25, 29 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm involved, but I endorse close as written, including the consensus against the previous image. Loki (talk) 20:18, 29 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm also involved, but for what it's worth, I endorse as written, including the consensus against the previous image. Notably there had been no previous RfC, this was the first. Additionally prior discussion on the issue, by my reading did not result in that much of a clear consensus, despite the claims of others. The only grounds for reversion to the previous image is that it was there for a while and I think that frankly we can do better than that. <b style="color:#ff0000;">Tar</b><b style="color:#ff7070;">nis</b><b style="color:#ffa0a0;">hed</b><b style="color:#420000;">Path</b><b style="color:#bd4004;">talk</b> 02:34, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * the previous discussion was unanimous, and therefore pretty clear. The only grounds for reversion to the previous image is that it was there for a while is simply not true. VQuakr (talk) 03:28, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Incorrect by my reading. <b style="color:#ff0000;">Tar</b><b style="color:#ff7070;">nis</b><b style="color:#ffa0a0;">hed</b><b style="color:#420000;">Path</b><b style="color:#bd4004;">talk</b> 04:16, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * the previous discussion was unanimous My reading is that the image has been controversial since its first inclusion even before the attack --  after only days it was removed by Graywalls as unrepresentative.  In June 2021, before Tarrio is indicted and arrested, User:Jason Quinn started a thread titled Propaganda image must go, Loki concurred.   Now that the subject has been convicted, an always-controversial unrepresentative image has been  demonstrated at RFC to have no consensus for inclusion.  In the unlikely event the RFC was ruled to be "poorly worded" or "incorrectly closed", we'd just write a new RFC and re-ping everyone to demonstrate the image is too controversial for inclusion.  No pre-conviction status quo is gonna hold as binding on future editors. Feoffer (talk) 06:05, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The 2020 diff you linked was for a different, related image than the one discussed in 2021 and 2023. It has the Betsy Ross background. No, the subject's conviction has precisely zero bearing on the selection of lead image. VQuakr (talk) 06:20, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Removing the Betsy Ross Flag does not do much to remove the fact that Tarrio is portrayed as something he is not. Jason Quinn made a lot of same arguments in that discussion as he did in the RfC. <b style="color:#ff0000;">Tar</b><b style="color:#ff7070;">nis</b><b style="color:#ffa0a0;">hed</b><b style="color:#420000;">Path</b><b style="color:#bd4004;">talk</b> 06:26, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * the subject's conviction has precisely zero bearing Well, not to put too fine a point on it -- before the conviction, some of us were willing to overlook a NPOV violation out of abundance of BLP caution;  Post conviction, there's no possible BLP issues with using a mug-shot or a protest photo. Feoffer (talk) 07:08, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, even while supporting the gray background image over the flag background image, I supported what became option B over either. Option A at no point ever had "unanimous" agreement. Loki (talk) 07:12, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If it was reverted mere days after being added and has had multiple discussions challenging it, then it didn't have implicit consensus per WP:EDITCONSENSUS and shouldn't be left in following a non-consensus RFC. Part of the point of EDITCONSENSUS is that editors who object in that manner shouldn't be forced to immediately go through the entire dispute-resolution process or to aggressively assert a lack of consensus via editing (which would result in unnecessary busywork and could encourage edit-wars to "deny" something implicit consensus); my interpretation has always been that once someone has lodged an objection to a relatively-new edit, it can no longer gain implicit consensus no matter how much time passes, ie. any future RFCs that fail to reach a consensus on it will result in removal unless it's had explicit consensus confirmed for it since then. If the people who defended the image in 2020 or 2021 or were certain it had consensus, they should have started an RFC to settle the matter permanently; by quietly restoring it in 2020 and letting the discussion die in 2021, they merely deferred the issue, they didn't settle it. EDITCONSENSUS and QUO are for edits that many editors have seen and implicitly accepted which remained without controversy the entire time, demonstrating implicit consensus; they're not for things that remained in the article because people who liked them there were aggressive about putting them back in the face of objections or because nobody had the time and energy to start a proper RFC at the time. --Aquillion (talk) 23:08, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * that's not what actually happened, though. The image was contested because it had an obnoxious flag background, an alternative with a gray background was proposed, those present agreed it was acceptable, then it was added to the lead where it remained for the following two years. VQuakr (talk) 23:23, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That's not entirely my reading as evidenced by Jason Quinn making the similar arguments back then as he did in the RfC. Notably when the photo the non-flag background was proposed in 2021 Jason didn't form part of that sub-thread discussion, perhaps he was otherwise disposed or over it by that stage? Who knows, however the important factor to my reading is that an individual editor who had shown very significant opposition to the image never voiced an opinion on the non-flag photo. Per @Aquillion above, I don't see that consensus was ever formed, just that the issue was left to unresolved until the recent RfC. <b style="color:#ff0000;">Tar</b><b style="color:#ff7070;">nis</b><b style="color:#ffa0a0;">hed</b><b style="color:#420000;">Path</b><b style="color:#bd4004;">talk</b> 01:42, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I mean, I don't actually think there's any denying that there was a rough consensus at the time. Not necessarily for the portrait image over the hat image though, but for the gray version of the portrait image over the flag version. My reading of the situation back there is that people assumed that that consensus carried over to the overall situation without actually discussing it. Maybe everyone was just tired of arguing. Loki (talk) 02:46, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * For me what stands out is that the editor (Jason Quinn) who started the main thread Talk:Enrique Tarrio/Archive 2 talked about a lot more than just the Betsy Ross Flag and then when it got to the subthread Talk:Enrique Tarrio/Archive 2 the only thing that was addressed was the Betsy Ross Flag and Jason Quinn wasn't part of that subthread discussion. Personally if I was the person proposing the alternative image I would have pinged the person who started the main thread, along with everyone else that was involved at the very least to ensure consensus. Better yet as @Aquillion suggested run a RfC. <b style="color:#ff0000;">Tar</b><b style="color:#ff7070;">nis</b><b style="color:#ffa0a0;">hed</b><b style="color:#420000;">Path</b><b style="color:#bd4004;">talk</b> 05:56, 1 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Involved and I would partially endorse the close. As others pointed out, if there's no consensus this should roll back to the status quo. The closer should have said to further discuss alternatives instead. Nemov (talk) 17:53, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This is getting confusing now. When I wrote "partial endorse", I was basing it on what the closer actually said (consensus against both pictures). Now those supporting the suit picture are using "partial endorse" to mean something completely different -- an interpretation of the closing statement that isn't, per the closer, what they meant at all. It would be helpful to treat the closing statement as the closer intended it rather than focus on two words out of context which happen to support your preference. &mdash; Rhododendrites  <sup style="font-size:80%;">talk \\ 14:48, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That's why I wrote "endorse as written", so there could be no misunderstanding about my meaning. <b style="color:#ff0000;">Tar</b><b style="color:#ff7070;">nis</b><b style="color:#ffa0a0;">hed</b><b style="color:#420000;">Path</b><b style="color:#bd4004;">talk</b> 15:11, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Same. I agree this is confusing. Loki (talk) 00:01, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Edit request to (hopefully) unbreak the Main Page video for mobile users
I was just wondering if an administrator could take a look at my edit request for Main Page/styles.css. Apologies for the post to AN as well as the edit request, I'm just conscious that the video on the Main Page is currently broken for mobile users. Any questions let me know.

Best, &zwj;—&zwj;a smart kitten[ meow] 12:11, 1 January 2024 (UTC)


 * ✅ by :) &zwj;—&zwj;a smart kitten[ meow] 13:18, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Closure Review Request on Neopronouns guidelines in MOS
(I'm new to editing wikipedia so apologizes if I make any mistakes doing this)

In November 2022 a RFC discussing use of neopronouns across wikipedia was closed (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=1124226138#Neopronouns_RfC_(moved)) claiming that the vast majority of respondents were in favor of mentioning the neopronouns once in the article lead and defaulting to singular "they" otherwise. (The closing post didn't include any numbers but I counted around 70% first choice votes for option E or C)

I'm requesting review on this by an impartial, uninvolved admin because


 * 1) This is a politically-charged and controversial decision that affects every article on wikipedia that mentions someone who goes by neopronouns.
 * 2) I believe that the discussion was closed prematurely
 * 3) There was still ongoing discussion and new votes and arguments were being made when the RFC was closed.
 * 4) This issue is still discussed.
 * 5) Many of the votes did not provide an argument, were based solely on personal political opinion, or made strong claims that they did not back up. The closing post did not provide any explanation for how it handled these votes, and it appears that they just chose the option which got the most votes (E+C since they were pretty similar). This is not how wikipedia works, to my understanding. Additionally, there being multiple similar options, options being added partway through the discussion, and users voting for more than one option complicates making this decision solely based on the number of votes.
 * 6) Many of the arguments given for option E (and other options) were that modern sources weren't using neopronouns. Option H was added partway in the discussion, which was to defer to the pronoun usage in recent reliable and independent sources. Many of the arguments were more in-line with option H but were presumably counted as being for other options as option H was not there from the start. The options that were initially presented to editors did not represent the range of opinions that emerged in the discussion.
 * 7) An argument voiced by some participants was that the ESL audience may be confused by the use of neopronouns so they should not be used. The closing post claimed that "there is broad agreement among the vast majority of editors" for this argument and presented it as the argument that decided the issue. However, in actuality only 13 out of 46 respondents voiced support for this argument. The closing post gives the impression that the discussion reached a much stronger consensus than it actually did.

We went though and summarized every respondent's argument and vote(s). We'll include that here since it could be useful. We bolded votes that did not include an argument/reason. I don't know enough about wikipedia policy to judge whether arguments are relevant to it though.


 * A "Allow all neopronouns"
 * Sideswipe9th (disrepectful to ignore people's preference)
 * Thatbox (agrees with Sideswipe9th, using neopronouns represents people's identities)
 * GreenComputer (second choice, thinks misgendering people is in violation of WP:BLP)
 * Tewdar (thinks its in the intended spirit of the gender identity section of the manual of style)
 * B "Don't use noun-self pronouns, use other neopronouns (e, xe, xir, zir etc)"
 * Sideswipe9th (disrepectful to ignore people's preference)
 * Thatbox (agrees with Sideswipe9th, using neopronouns represents people's identities)
 * MSG17 (neopronouns are used by acceptable sources and present in dictionaries, doesn't think neopronouns will be notably confusing for readers)
 * MarjinFlorence (neopronouns are not new and it is fair to respect people's preferences, nounself pronouns are more like nicknames so they don't count)
 * C "Retain status quo (use singular they)" (note - some respondents pointed that this was not the status quo but was just the result of an isolated non-binding discussion & that the actual status quo was MOS:GENDERID)
 * Rosguill (selects C as a fallback, prefers taking cues from RS coverage when a consensus exists)
 * Crossroads (claims neopronouns aren't words and using them would not be grammatical)
 * SMcCandlish (second choice, no reason for support given, implies people supporting neopronoun usage are "irrational")
 * Masem (neopronouns are non-standard and don't belong in an encyclopedia)
 * Slywriter (thinks wikipedia should only adopt styles that are widely used in scholarly sources)
 * Rhododendrites (second choice, agrees with bluerasperry/funcrunch)
 * WhoIs 127.0.0.1 ping/loopback (thinks that we should prioritize comprehension and stick to words that every reader knows)
 * Elli (Will make articles confusing to people who aren't familiar with neopronouns. little benefit to using neopronouns and they/them or the person's name works fine)
 * Girth Summit (second choice, no reason given)
 * David Eppstein (second choice, thinks we shouldn't use neologisms people aren't familiar with)
 * Ficaia (no reason given)
 * SWinxy (agrees with masem)
 * JoelleJay (harms readability, doesn't want to have to determine whether pronoun usage is sincere or satirical)
 * Levivich (readers aren't familiar with neopronouns)
 * Satellizer el Bridget (no reason given)
 * Some1 (agrees with masem)
 * John Cline (feels the issue was adequately resolved earlier)
 * Darwin (second choice, no reason given)
 * D "Refer to subjects only by name"
 * SMcCandlish (fourth choice, no reason for support given, implies people supporting neopronoun usage are "irrational")
 * MikutoH (its how ptwiki does it)
 * Elli (Will make articles confusing to people who aren't familiar with neopronouns. little benefit to using neopronouns and they/them or the person's name works fine)
 * Girth Summit (second choice, no reason given)
 * E "Mention the neopronouns once in the article lead, default to singular they otherwise"
 * Bluerasberry (thinks it will make reading harder for ESL audience)
 * Crossroads (second choice, thinks neopronouns aren't words and using them would not be grammatical)
 * SMcCandlish (no reason for support given, implies people supporting neopronoun usage are "irrational")
 * Funcrunch (agrees with bluerasperry, thinks its a reasonable compromise for non-binary people)
 * Rhododendrites (agrees with bluerasperry/funcrunch)
 * Dsuke1998AEOS (thinks neopronouns make reading difficult because they look unnatural, feels they're controversial in the LGBT community, would support their use on wikipedia once/if they become popular in reliable sources)
 * GiantSnowman (no reason given)
 * Guerillero (believes neopronoun usage will cause accessibility issues for esl, older speakers, and uneducted readers, believes we should be following trends rather than spearheading them)
 * Dickylon (feels we shouldn't be endorsing/spreading changes to the language that are still unfamiliar to most readers)
 * Elli (Will make articles confusing to people who aren't familiar with neopronouns. little benefit to using neopronouns and they/them or the person's name works fine)
 * Girth Summit (no reason given)
 * David Eppstein (thinks we shouldn't use neologisms people aren't familiar with)
 * TreyMaturin (thinks neopronouns are too startling. Feels like singular they is inoffensive except to people it offends and that they are irrational and shouldn't be pandered to. Also says that neo-pronoun users offended by being misgendered are irrational.)
 * dudhhr (believes neopronouns would be confusing to ESL speakers)
 * 109.255.211.6 (thinks we should follow the tone of mainstream publications)
 * SWinxy (agrees with masem)
 * Valereee (confusing to readers, E>H>B>C>A>D)
 * Hentheden (harms readability, particularly for ESL)
 * JoelleJay (harms readability, doesn't want to have to determine whether pronoun usage is sincere or satirical)
 * Levivich (readers aren't familiar with neopronouns)
 * Satellizer el Bridget (no reason given)
 * Necrothesp (if we use neopronouns, soon we'll be removing factual information because the subjects want us to)
 * Darwin (no reason given)
 * Carter (Tcr25) ("seems the most workable")
 * small jars (least confusing for readers)


 * E.1 "Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress" "brother/sister") that reflect the person's most recent expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. This holds for any phase of the person's life, unless they have indicated a preference otherwise." (added mid-discussion)
 * Tamzin (thinks pronoun usage should be avoided altogether for people who object to being referred to with they/them)
 * JoelleJay (harms readability, doesn't want to have to determine whether pronoun usage is sincere or satirical)
 * Carter (Tcr25) ("seems the most workable")
 * F "Only use neopronouns if the subject does not also use one of the common sets of pronouns. To avoid potential reader confusion, the usage of neopronouns should be noted with an appropriate hatnote/footnote/in-text note before or at the first usage" (added mid-discussion)
 * GreenComputer (thinks misgendering people is in violation of WP:BLP)
 * Madeline (agrees with greencomputer, roxysaunderes, and endwish, thinks its ironic using the AP stylebook as an argument to support singular they over neopronoun usage given the AP stylebook recommends against using either)
 * H "Use the pronouns most common in recent reliable and independent sources" (added mid-discussion)
 * SMcCandlish (third choice, no reason for support given, implies people supporting neopronoun usage are "irrational")
 * BilledMammal (believes wikipedia is obligated to agree with primary sources)
 * MSG17 (neopronouns are used by acceptable sources and present in dictionaries, doesn't think neopronouns will be notably confusing for readers)
 * XOR'easter (believes its in line with wikipedia's policies. Thinks its wrong to sacrifice providing accurate information for the sake of readability)
 * Sariel Xilo (thinks neopronouns are comprehendable and that they're used in acceptable sources)
 * Aquillion (thinks overriding sources is inappropriate)
 * Bilorv (thinks a blanket rule is inappropriate when there is no consensus among professional sources, and that deferring to sources is how wikipedia works)
 * Levivich (readers aren't familiar with neopronouns)
 * MarjinFlorence (neopronouns are not new and it is fair to respect people's preferences)

Mousecat111 (talk) 16:27, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Stealth Canvassing for RFC
Can anything be done about a controversial ongoing RFC on the names of deceased trans people, and this RFC being shared on a Discord server called "LGBT Wikimedians"? Comment revealed the post here, though since the person commenting is not being accused of impropriety, I didn't ping their talk page.

Discord server posting is specifically called out on WP:CANVASSING as "inappropriate notification (and may be seen as disruptive)". <b style="color:#AF7817">Cuñado</b> ☼ - Talk  18:06, 29 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Do you have any reason to believe that the discussion refered to by (btw this is obviously you starting a discussion about an editor, it's ridiculous that you didn't inform the person you mentioned) is designed to persuade [people] to join in discussions?  I see you haven't bothered to ask LilianaUwU or anyone else about it before coming to WP:AN.  Maybe we need a guideline about not jumping to negative conclusions about other users' motives or something.  --JBL (talk) 20:56, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * In addition to this, Cuñado was warned about casting these exact sorts of WP:ASPERSIONS only a few months ago. And then nearly got topic-banned from GENSEX for immediately running out and doing it again, literally days later. Loki (talk) 02:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi. Server mod here (speaking just for myself). One user gave a neutral pointer to the RfC on the 10th. While the server generally disallows discussion of ongoing disputes (a higher standard than held by the main Wikimedia community Discord), the mods left this mention (to which no one replied) because this was a discussion at WP:VPP, linked from WT:LGBT, so a very large audience was already aware of the RfC. On the 27th, during a discussion about inclusion of Near's legal name, a different user mentioned their intention to comment in the RfC, without endorsing any specific stance or encouraging anyone else to participate; there was then brief discussion of how the RfC's proposed rule would apply to Near. Under WP:INAPPNOTE, both posts were limited, with neutrally-worded messages, in a semi-transparent setting (server is publicly listed at WP:DISCORD and Discord and open to anyone with a Wikimedia account). As to the remaining prong, partisanship, it may be tempting to assume that LGBT Wikimedians will be on the "pro" side in the RfC, but that's not necessarily the case. Personally I'm moderately opposed, although I've abstained from !voting so far. With all this in mind, I (again, speaking just for myself) stand by our decision to not remove these two policy-compliant mentions of the RfC's existence. And I commend Liliana for her transparency (above and beyond what's required by policy) in acknowledging that she had seen the RfC discussed on-server. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 21:58, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Come on, Cuñado, you've been extended confirmed for longer than I've been a Wikipedian, you could've sent me a notification despite the blue lock on my talk page. With that said, I know I've been blocked for canvassing before, so it's understandable to be worried... also, I did say I had intended to weigh in prior; this was true, and the link in that Discord server simply reminded me, as I had forgotten about it.  Liliana UwU  (talk / contributions) 23:56, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * my post here was not about you, it was about whoever posted in the Discord chat. I have seen people get in trouble for posting an RFC on a wiki project page, or pinging people on-wiki to join a conversation. Trying to drum up more participants on a Discord server seems even more obviously inappropriate. <b style="color:#AF7817">Cuñado</b> ☼ - Talk  01:39, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Posting a neutrally worded statement and link on wikiproject talk pages or article talk pages is almost always OK, in my opinion. Pings, user talk pages, and offwiki, not so much. – Novem Linguae (talk) 09:50, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I wish I could remember the example, but WP:CANVASS came crashing down on someone who posted an RFC to a wikiproject that would likely vote the same as the poster. For example, if there were an RFC about whether the images of Muhammad should be displayed, someone could seek comments from WikiProject Islam or similar, and not seek comments from WikiProject Democracy or similar. Clearly that would be a form of WP:VOTESTACKING (part of WP:CANVASS). Posting this particular RFC to WikiProject Conservatism, for example, would clearly have generated a discussion about the poster canvassing, regardless of how neutrally worded.
 * Votestacking aside, it seems that Discord is specifically called out as "inappropriate notification (and may be seen as disruptive)", and that's why I brought it up here. <b style="color:#AF7817">Cuñado</b> ☼ - Talk  20:14, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've heard of people told off for only posting to certain wikiprojects and warned not to do it again, but from my experience provided there was some reasonable justification for informing that wikiproject, in terms of outcome it's not considered a big deal unless it's something only noticed after the RfC is finished. This makes sense since unlike with a non-neutral notice or pinging random people without a clear rationale (or a poor rationale), it's something that can be easily corrected. On the "after outcome" think, this is why editors should always mention on the RfC that they've informed whatever wikiprojects. That way people can see what happened and decide if there's some wikiproject that was missed etc. Nil Einne (talk) 22:39, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks . I didn't notice previously but the wikiproject share was mentioned on the RFC, below in the comments section. <b style="color:#AF7817">Cuñado</b> ☼ - Talk  17:40, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * In my view, if an editor is concerned about a biased wiki project being informed, they can always inform wiki projects of their choice as well to balance it out. I don't see anything controversial about informing wiki projects, personally. – Novem Linguae (talk) 02:26, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

The server does not hide previous messages from new users, so anyone here with a Discord account can verify that the only mentions of the RFC are the ones Tamzin described. &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times"> MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 17:43, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment. Though I am not very active, I am technically a moderator of the server as well. I can confirm what said above. I am very paranoid about Discord stealth canvassing (and coverups thereof), so I checked the audit logs as well to see if messages were deleted from the server in the last 45 days. Only 1 WikiAuthBot message was deleted during that time-frame.

Appeal of the removal of EC membership for User:DMH43
I (@User:DMH43) recently obtained EC membership. Since then, I have made several edits to ARBPIA pages (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/DMH43). Today, I had my EC membership revoked by User:ScottishFinnishRadish, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DMH43#Extended-confirmed_revoked. Quoting this user's message:

you rushed to 500 total edits and then immediately switched entirely to editing ARBPIA topics exclusively. That is a clear case of WP:GAMING just to regain access to ARBPIA.

I argue that my edits were not a case of gaming based on the rules described. The Gaming page describes restrictions as being preventative rather than punitive. I would consider the removal of my permission as punitive since no one has brought an issue with the contents of my edits (which I don't think have been controversial in any sense). The Gaming page does describe a case of gaming to gain EC access:

An editor makes many unconstructive edits in a sandbox to become extended confirmed, and then makes controversial changes to extended confirmed protected articles.

This is very different from my case. The example described is a clear manipulation whereas my edits have been valuable phrasing, formatting, citation and content improvements.

User:ScottishFinnishRadish also suggests I edit strictly non-ARBPIA pages for a few months. But this is not mentioned anywhere in the rules. This suggests that the action taken against me is punitive.

User:ScottishFinnishRadish also linked two recent cases (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1144#User:President_Loki and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1144#500/30_gaming_for_ARBPIA_editing) of users Gaming to gain EC access. Both cases are very different from mine. Specifically, the user mentioned in the first link has ~296 edits wikilinking "genus". The user mentioned in the second link has a HUGE number of very tiny, arguably useless edits. In contrast my edits are arguably much more substantial, very few are under 20 characters changed.

Based on the above, I think the action taken against me is unjustified (and strictly punitive, not preventative) by the rules and I should have EC membership restored. DMH43 (talk) 17:11, 24 December 2023 (UTC)


 * 1) This account was open on 15 November.
 * 2) The first actual edit was on 1 December - just over 3 weeks ago.
 * 3) The first 100+ edits were in ARBPIA, in violation of 30/500. The user continued to edit in ARBPIA after being warned by me and other users, and stopped doing so only after I opened a complaint in AE.
 * 4) After the complaint, the user started editing in other topics, many of the edits not very substantial.
 * 5) As soon as the user got to 500 total edits, including many violation edits because they had edited in ARBPIA, they again started editing exclusively in ARBPIA, adding much POV material.
 * Seems like a clear case of WP:GAMING. Dovidroth (talk) 17:36, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Everyone can feel free to check that discussion which has now been archived without action. And they can check that I messaged you to notify that I would undo your reverts. None of my edits were controversial or malicious. None of my edits have been challenged as POV. DMH43 (talk) 17:43, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * How can the first 100+ edits be in ARBPIA where EC is the standard? Buffs (talk) 21:38, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Buffs, There are many, many BLPs which have WP:ARBPIA4 related content. Most are semi-protected but not all and not many are fully protected. I've seen quite a few instances of Non-EC editors editing these articles and have had to warn them a number of times. I've seen instances new accounts making their first 10 edits by adding and removing spaces to article to get past semi-protection and then moving to editing BLPs which are semi-protected in sections which are WP:ARBPIA4 related. I've brought it to WP:AN/I when I've detected it. It's a very live issue and I don't think enough attention is paid to it. I've seen quite a few RfCs which are WP:ARBPIA4 related and where there are a lot of editors who have just over 500 edits who all vote in exactly the same manner. I'm not going to accuse each of those specific editors involved in those RfCs of gaming but it's hard not to draw conclusions when the same phenomena is seen a number of times. <b style="color:#ff0000;">Tar</b><b style="color:#ff7070;">nis</b><b style="color:#ffa0a0;">hed</b><b style="color:#420000;">Path</b><b style="color:#bd4004;">talk</b> 07:46, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've also notified Dovidroth of this thread since they seem to have been quite invested in reverting you.
 * As for my opinion on the merits of the request, I'm not convinced that this was really gaming the system. Did the user rush to 500? Sure, but the edits, in my opinion, seem to be at least fairly reasonable on the surface. I'm also not really convinced the standard generally established in other cases like this was met here. I don't think ScottishFinnishRadish was wrong here, but I also don't think the revocation of extended confirmed was particularly necessary, and I don't see a reason that it shouldn't be returned to them. The links ScottishFinnishRadish gave to the editor on their talk page as examples of gaming don't seem very egregious, and it seems like the editor, while maybe a bit inexperienced, does still know what they're doing, and the page they made in ARBPIA is still up. Based on this, I would support returning extended confirmed to the editor. If they're really becoming that problematic in ARBPIA even with extended confirmed, blocks still exist, and so does a friendly talk page discussion. EggRoll97 (talk) 17:42, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I would say that immediately reverting one editor a half-dozen times as one of their first actions after gaining autoconfirmed demonstrate problematic ARBPIA editing already, and also demonstrate the problem with gaming extended-confirmed with minor copyedits with the goal of returning to ARBPIA. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:08, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Those reverts were undos of reverts performed because I didn't have EC. No issue with the content was raised at the time. And I notified said user. DMH43 (talk) 18:10, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I would argue my reverts are the most benign edits I could have made, since no issue was raised regarding the content when i originally made these edits. DMH43 (talk) 18:14, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * To be clear, I didnt go on a reverting spree of a specific user. DMH43 (talk) 18:14, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The fact that this user is calling POV-filled edits “benign” shows a lack of sensitivity to ARBPIA and that they are not ready to edit in this area. Dovidroth (talk) 02:56, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Those arent POV-filled edits, and if you had a case for removing them except for them being made by a non-ECP editor you could offer that. You dont though.  nableezy  - 14:23, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with nableezy above. You could have explained that instead of just spamming "reverting editor not 30/500". You could have put a detailed edit summary in there, for what you actually thought was wrong with the edits. The editor was trying to contribute in good faith, which frankly it's a shame we don't just IAR these early ARBPIA edits and actually put a descriptive edit summary instead of spamming the same non-descript "user not allowed in here" garbage. Getting new editors acquainted is a problem, and this is part of it. EggRoll97 (talk) 14:34, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I disagreed with the edits, but there was no need to state that as you were non-EC and not allowed to edit in those articles in the first place. And I did not receive any notification that you were reverting me. Where do you think you have notified me? Dovidroth (talk) 18:59, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I had tagged you on the talk pages. For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Scars%20of%20War,%20Wounds%20of%20Peace?title=Scars_of_War,_Wounds_of_Peace&diff=prev&oldid=1191425028 DMH43 (talk) 19:01, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * As a matter of procedure, I'm pretty sure your reversions on Scars of War, Wounds of Peace above are actually a violation of ARBPIA4, remedy 6, stating in part,  As that particular article is part of, ARBPIA restrictions shouldn't apply unless the editnotice and talk page template have been applied. Regardless, it seems the editor wasn't actually prohibited by 500/30 from making those edits. POV is a different issue, but that can be hashed out separately. EggRoll97 (talk) 19:30, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * , while there are separate additional requirements for sanctioning editors for restriction violations, there is no such requirement for the extended-confirmed restriction to exist and apply in the entire topic area. Special:Diff/1188566854 is a fine revert and Special:Diff/1187991384 (2023-12-02), from an account created 2023-11-15, is a clear violation of the extended-confirmed restriction independently of the edit count. This doesn't mean that has to be blamed for not knowing about it; it just means that your procedural concern is invalid. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:05, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You used the automatic edit summary that says that you are reverting me. That is not exactly informing me. Either way, your cannot assume if I reverted you saying that you are a non-EC editor that I otherwise agree with your edits. Dovidroth (talk) 02:59, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "Rushing to 500" GAMING, and the policy at WP:PGAME should be updated to reflect modern understanding. This isn't the clearest cut obvious case of gaming ever, but yes if the first 100 edits, three weeks ago, are in violation of ECP, then someone putters around for awhile making edits like this and this and this (all trivial) and  (non-trivial, editor's most-edited article outside ARBIPA space, may be a genuine improvement, lots of references removed), and then immediately abandons the prior topic area to leap back into EC with seven reverts of the same editor and then publishes this (removing balance from Wikivoice, refbombing POV statement including a citation "by" Nast Condé with the balance unformatted, adding contentious material with a built-in cn tag at time of edit, then reinforcing the POV with an added paragraph at the end of the subsection): this demonstrates both intent to game, and unreadiness for constructive editing in ECP topics. Folly Mox (talk) 04:01, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The first and third edit are also nontrivial from a conceptual standpoint, which i am happy to explain.
 * I also don't consider what I've done as abandoning. I am excited to edit pages which I havent had a chance to edit yet, which is why I am engaging more with ARBIPA content recently. DMH43 (talk) 04:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "Trivial" was not the most appropriate description of your edits in the statistics and mathematics space. Your contributions were definitely better than the type that (for example) changes a single punctuation mark or adds a single wikilink. For what it's worth, I do sympathise with your position, and having looked more fully into your post-EC edits in ARBIPA, I definitely picked the most problematic one to link to (it was chosen arbitrarily).What I was trying to convey was that your editing while waiting for EC wasn't the kind that engaged with any policies that will be necessary to understand for editing non-disruptively in contentious topic areas. I do see you've engaged appropriately at Talk:Oslo Accords, and your ARBIPA edits like this and this seem unproblematic. But both this edit and the one already linked above show that you haven't learned yet how to correct problems with your citations, which is going to be important in a contentious area; this edit and this edit display a propensity for placing quotes that align with your POV in eye-catching blockquote templates in prominent locations, the bit about removing balance to put your POV in Wikivoice I mentioned above, and the removal of all the references that didn't align with your vision for Statistical hypothesis testing concerns me.Reverting the same editor on seven articles as soon as you were technically able to does give the impression of an antagonistic perspective. It's fine to disagree completely with someone else, but hopping straight to reversion instead of attempting to reach a compromise is how articles get disrupted. Reversion should feel icky, not triumphal. The goal is always productive collaboration, not our own preferred prose.One major problem with ECP is that it's a purely numeric threshold standing in for what would ideally be a qualitative test of applicable competencies. The assumption behind the idea is that if someone has been editing for a month and made five hundred edits, they'll be sufficiently familiar with the rules for constructive collaborative editing, and sufficiently invested in encyclopaedic improvement, that they should be able to edit whatever articles call their interest. But if someone spends that month (not even, in this case) and those 500 edits making small edits in a space where they're not even interacting with other editors and then leaps directly into the most contentious topic on the project, the process hasn't worked.I'd like to see an understanding of WP:NPOV, an approach of attempted compromise before resorting to reversion, and closer attention paid to citations. I'm not an admin and I don't usually edit content in contentious topics, so my opinion here shouldn't be taken too seriously, but I wouldn't oppose restoring EC after a brief period demonstrating collaborative editing in a non-ECP CTOP, or even just a personal reflection accurately describing the problems with the edits made before the permission was revoked. Also, WP:PGAME should be updated. When policy lags behind practice, it confuses people. Folly Mox (talk) 14:05, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, I characteristically forgot: please don't add unsourced prose with a cn attached at time of edit. Even if done for the best of reasons it can lead to undesirable results.Noting also for the crew that (per Zero0000 and nableezy) my understanding of PGAME as practiced may be in the minority, on the "overly strict" side. Folly Mox (talk) 14:50, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Ive brought up several GAMING violations in the past, they were all for doing mindless edits repeatedly with a clear intention to get to the restricted topic. But doing mindful edits with that same intention has never been treated as GAMING before, even when the intent to return to a CTOPIC is plainly evident. This editor, from everything Ive seen of their edits, will be a positive to our goals as an encyclopedia. There were editors previously who very plainly edit from the polar opposite of the POV spectrum that I encouraged to stick around because I also saw their edits would be a positive as an encyclopedia. Eg here. I think it would be healthy if we saw more of that instead of editors attempting to use procedural roadblocks to stop what is plainly a good faith and productive editor who is trying to follow the rules. I dont mean you to be clear, but it seems pretty plain to see that is motivating some of the comments here.  nableezy  - 22:08, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The points you brought up are:
 * I didn't edit pages which allowed me to engage with other users
 * I started editing ARBIPA pages when I was given access
 * I have shown some issues formatting citations and possibly other content
 * I haven't made edits outside ARBIPA that clearly show an understanding of WP:NPOV.
 * I reverted a user's edits who had reverted me for no reason other than I was new and did not have EC permission.
 * But none of this is close to breaking any rules, as far as I know. I followed the rules in good faith which is clear from my edit history. If the rules aren't sufficient and the "process hasn't worked" isn't that a call to update the guidelines rather than to punish me as a new user?
 * In response to your other comment, thank you for pointing out that I shouldnt use cn expecting someone else with find a citation. DMH43 (talk) 14:55, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think this thread provides adequate guidance, and I'm feeling convinced by nableezy above that the string of reverts were reverts of technical reverts of DMH43's own edits (which I didn't realise at first). Levivich makes good points below, as does Zero0000 in their response to my question.Emotionally I feel bad for taking a stance which I wrongly assumed to be consensus, but turns out to be stricter. That's not the person I want to be. I note also DMH43 engaging productively again in non-ECP space. Switching to Support restoring EC at 30 days since first edit (i.e. 01 January) per Black Kite somewhere in this thread; wouldn't oppose restoring earlier. Folly Mox (talk) 21:44, 26 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Endorse SFR's action, close AN thread appeal, user should receive a warning. The user does not understand what they did wrong. They should read Gaming the system and Righting great wrongs, and receive a warning. Andre<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">🚐 05:04, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Can you be more specific? DMH43 (talk) 06:18, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If this is a case of gaming, someone should be able to show me a case of another user who made similar edits and also had their EC membership revoked. So far, I have only been shown users with a history of very clear bad faith edits. DMH43 (talk) 14:57, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That is not a reasonable request as there is no way to either contact every Admin who has removed ECP or search every instance. And it shows to me at least you aren’t listening or not understanding what you are being told. Doug Weller  talk 21:53, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this is bordering on WP:NOTHERE Andre<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">🚐 22:17, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That is highly uncivil, the editor is clearly here to build an encyclopedia and even the briefest perusal of their edits would demonstrate that.  nableezy  - 22:18, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Read NOTHERE, it talks about gaming and attitude conflicts similar to what we see here. Andre<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">🚐 22:21, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * There isnt any gaming. Constructive editing is not gaming.  nableezy  - 22:22, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * There's a clear consensus here of users and admins saying that racing to 500 to revert the same user 7 times along ideological lines is obvious gaming. Let's not go back and forth. You disagree, but there's a consensus here against you. Andre<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">🚐 22:24, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Dont think any of that is true at all. And I expect if people look at it a bit more deeply they will see it is not true. But no, I dont think your description of this is accurate either.  nableezy  - 22:28, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't believe that they're NOTHERE, I just believe that they rushed edits as quickly as they could to meet EC by the letter of the rules and immediately dive in to conflict, gaming the system so they could revert to their preferred version. That shows a critical lack of understanding of how Wikipedia, and CTOPs in particular, work. If I had seen any editor in the topic area go around to half a dozen articles reverting the same editor I would have taken some action. With the circumstances in this particular situation I figured removing ec was a reasonably light touch. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:51, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don’t think that’s really what happened, they were restoring their own edits. Not simply reverting another editor. If they had been following Dovidroth around then sure that’s its own issue, but they returned to articles they had previously edited and had their edits removed for reasons that no longer applied. I don’t think that’s even remotely gaming or evidence of any bad faith at all, those edits were all fine and were only removed for EC reasons. When he was EC then it made sense to return them.  nableezy  - 23:06, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Proposal: issue warning, endorse permission removal, restore permission at 30 days after first edit and 500 main space edits, notwithstanding any findings of misconduct, which should be treated separately. DMH43's account will be 30 days old on 30 December, and has made 490 main space edits. I agree that gaming against the spirit of 30/500 has clearly occurred, but the edits seem to be themselves in good faith, even if they are trivial or minor. Their request to restore permission has also provided greater scrutiny on their editing. Onetwothreeip (talk) 06:40, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I also note that this is not the designated process for requesting restoring permissions, but we might as well determine this here; the relevant editor brought this here and we are not a bureaucracy. Onetwothreeip (talk) 08:13, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Since this was a logged AE action, I told them they could appeal here. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:02, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Deny appeal and use the standard process for restoring in the future. No need for other sanctions.  It is a bit of gaming, but they are also a new user (we assume).  I would imagine that  would be willing to restore after a short period of worthwhile contributions.  SFR was within their authority to issue the sanction and I see it as a reasonable admin action, but the actions that led to the sanction weren't the most egregious case of gaming, so I have faith a balanced approach will be taken when reinstating EC.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 07:22, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Deny appeal per Folly Mox and Dennis Brown. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Weller (talk • contribs) 08:00, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't get it. It is true DMH43 did many early edits contrary to ARBECR. No argument there. But I wonder when editing exclusively in ARBPIA after becoming EC became a crime. Many editors edit exclusively or almost exclusively in ARBPIA. I also don't see the "gaming" claim. I've seen lots of gaming of the 500/30 rule and they didn't look like this. Most the edits are substantial, including some of those described above as trivial (such as this and this which correct actual errors; as a mathematician I am qualified to say that). Specifically, I contend that on looking at DMH43's first 500 edits (your prefs might determine how many display at once) they don't look out of the ordinary. They do not consist mainly or even largely of trivial edits. And it took 20 days to reach 500, which is not a particularly fast rate of editing. Zerotalk 13:16, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "Trivial" was an inapt descriptor. Pretty much everything in that paragraph was inapt to a degree, particularly the structure, and also on reread using "balance" in two different meanings a few words apart. I've attempted to explain myself a bit better above in the cold light of day., are you able to comment on the filer's rewrite here, and whether there's anything concerning about it? Folly Mox (talk) 14:26, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * your question is one that belongs on the article talk page, as there are no obvious behavioral problems. As far as this case is concerned, note that making a lot of changes to an article in a single edit is exactly the opposite of what people do who are making rapid trivial edits to get EC. Zerotalk 01:03, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Restore after 100 more edits - I dont see any GAMING at all, there were ECP violations, not gaming ones, earlier. Those edits shouldnt count towards the 500 to become extended confirmed, but this is not gaming, those are constructive edits that took time, not mindless adding whitespace or changing and reverting their own change, or making slight modifications to categories or templates. But the claim of gaming appears to have little to no substantiation, I see no "rushing" to 500, and I think it pretty normal for an editor to revert edits that were made for a reason that no longer applies. Hell, when Dovidroth was unblocked as a sockpuppet he restored his edits that had been reverted for BANREVERT. And why wouldnt he? The cause for the removal wasnt valid, so he was entitled to restore them.  nableezy  - 14:27, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * In the middle of this appeal, this user complained about me on another user's talk page. This continues into a possible WP:Battleground behavior. Dovidroth (talk) 16:49, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The battleground page describes behavior which disrupts Wikipedia. Nowhere in my post do I suggest any disruptive behavior, rather I point out a few cases that seem to me to be bad faith edits. This post of yours suggests you are taking my edits personally, whereas none of my posts have been personal in nature; they are all content based. DMH43 (talk) 17:26, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Posting a complaint about a user on another user (not an admin)’s talk page is inappropriate and borderline WP:battleground. And on what basis do you claim my edits are bad faith? Seems like an ordinary edit dispute. Dovidroth (talk) 17:32, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You haven't engaged with the content of any of my edits, just reverting them despite some of them were correcting obvious factual errors (such as misattributed quotes). DMH43 (talk) 17:43, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I am glad to engage with EC users. I am allowed to revert anything in ARBPIA from a non-EC user that I disagree with without providing further explanation. “Anyone is free to revertany edits made in violation of a ban or block, without giving any further reason and without regard to the three-revert rule.” WP:Banrevert. A non-EC user in ARBPIA is effectively the same thing as a ban. Dovidroth (talk) 17:56, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Any reasonable third party would consider your reverts as irresponsible and borderline harassment of a new editor. DMH43 (talk) 19:10, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I showed you in the policy that what I did is legitimate. Falsely accusing me of acting irresponsible and abusive because you don’t like it will not get you anywhere. I hope the admins reviewing this case will see that this user is interested in pushing his POV without following the rules and that they should not be allowed to edit in ARBPIA. Dovidroth (talk) 19:14, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That accusation of harassment is incivil. Propose that DMH43 should be warned for incivility Andre<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">🚐 22:12, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd say it's spot on, actually. I'd instead propose that Dovidroth be warned for violating WP:BITE. EggRoll97 (talk) 23:19, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "I am allowed to revert anything in ARBPIA from a non-EC user that I disagree with without providing further explanation." Are you saying that you wouldn't revert a contribution from a non-ECP editor that you did agree with? Black Kite (talk) 22:15, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:Banrevert states that “This does not mean that edits must be reverted just because they were made by a banned editor (changes that are obviously helpful, such as fixing typos or undoing vandalism, can be allowed to stand), but the presumption in ambiguous cases should be to revert.” There have been cases that I have decided to leave something, but obviously if another EC editor reverts them, I will respect that. Dovidroth (talk) 05:15, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Frankly, the most troubling behavior in this thread is being displayed by Andrevan (for misstating the degree of consensus in an apparent attempt to shut down the discussion, as well as the hyperbolic, bolded demand for a warning above in response to a comment that is well within the norms of discussion on AN if not necessarily wise), and to a lesser extent Dovidroth (a new editor asking on a 3rd party's talk page for advice on how to respond to what they perceive to be harassment is completely reasonable behavior, and in general if Dovidroth had followed correct protocol and started with alert/first like we're supposed to there's a decent chance that this discussion wouldn't be happening at all right now). signed,Rosguill talk 22:51, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I didn't say the consensus is that the thread should be shut down, but that gaming is gaming. You can disagree. I stand by the statement that the accusation of harassment is inappropriate and I still feel the user should be warned; nothing hyperbolic about a warning, nor does bolding indicate anything, it is standard to bold opinions in discussions. I was not aware the user was not alerted, however, which is unrelated. Andre<span style="border:2px solid #073642;background:rgb(255,156,0);background:linear-gradient(90deg, rgba(255,156,0,1) 0%, rgba(147,0,255,1) 45%, rgba(4,123,134,1) 87%);">🚐 22:55, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Endorse removal, but I would look favourably on restoring the permission when the user has made 500 non-ARBPIA edits (and has reached 30 days, of course). Obviously, if they then behave disruptively in a CTOP area after that, then that's a separate issue. Black Kite (talk) 23:06, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep removed, but restore after 500 mainspace non ARBPIA edits, and take further issues (if any) to arb enforcement.VR talk 23:28, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support appeal/restore EC now - I don't understand how anyone looks at this editor's mainspace edits and sees them as trivial or gaming or anything other than normal editing: adding sourced content, removing unsourced content, fixing/adjusting content. The edits aren't perfect but they're normal edits.More broadly, as someone who strongly supports ECR (and its expansion), I don't understand why some editors refer to a pattern of editing in non-ARBPIA edits until EC, and then editing ARBPIA once EC, as "leaping" or "jumping" into ARBPIA or "abandoning" the other topic area. I don't get how other editors don't get that editing in non-ARBPIA areas before EC and then editing ARBPIA after EC is exactly what we want editors to do, and the whole point of ECR. We want new editors in ARBPIA, and we want editors to get experience elsewhere before editing ARBPIA. This is exactly what this editor has done (thank you for your volunteer work, sorry for this unpleasant experience). (This is also exactly what I did when I first got here in 2018. Nobody took away my EC. I don't see any meaningful difference between this editors first 500 edits and my own first 500 edits. And if someone had yanked my EC, Wikipedia would probably have lost my next 25,000 edits over the next five years. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot by driving away new volunteers.)Folks, whenever there is a major world event, new editors will show up wanting to edit topics about that event. When the event is in ARBPIA, as here, you can expect to see editors editing non-ARBPIA topics and then editing ARBPIA topics after EC. There is nothing wrong with this. This editor's mainspace edits show me they have enough experience and understanding of policies to edit in the ARBPIA topic area. Their edits aren't all perfect, but neither are mine or any other EC editor's."Gaming" is when someone makes 250 edits adding a period and then 250 edits removing a period and then edits ARBPIA. This is plainly not what this editor did.If someone reverts an editor's edits because they're not EC that's allowed per ECR, but we shouldn't be surprised when the editor reinstates their edits after hitting EC. Again, this is what we want: new editors volunteering to edit this topic area. Levivich (talk) 18:34, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Many of the 500 edits are very minor and trivial, and were made very rapidly. The first edits also began two weeks after the account was created. This is why I see this as gaming, but it's not particularly egregious. Giving this editor EC permission does not jeopardise Wikipedia. Onetwothreeip (talk) 21:33, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Here are DMH's first 50 edits -- none of them are very minor or trivial AFAICS. You can tell just by looking at the size of the edits that they're not trivial. The most trivial edit in the bunch is one edit that adds a wikilink, and that's not trivial. Here are their next 50 edits -- I see one edit that adds a period, the rest are plainly not trivial (I can't see the revdel'd ones). So that's 99 non-trivial edits out of their first 100. I haven't looked at all 500, but here are their first 500 and again, just by looking at the sizes of the edits, we can see that the vast majority, like almost all of them, are non-trivial. It makes me wonder what other editors consider "trivial"? Levivich (talk) 21:46, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I saw various edits which were adding or removing a word that had little to no effect on the meaning of the sentence, when I was looking at the later edits. However, this is too trivial to necessitate any sanctions or permission removals. Onetwothreeip (talk) 23:47, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I returned here to write more but I see that Levivich has written more or less exactly what I wanted to write, so I'll just say that I agree completely. Zerotalk 03:53, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Restore now per Levivich. Curiously, some participants in this thread are now topic banned from ARBPIA by SFR. <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x Deadbeef →∞ (talk to me) 12:04, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * After reflecting on the discussion here I think 's proposal is a good way to split this particular nickel. If I weren't a meathead I would have made that the restoration criteria when I removed the permission. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:10, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Procedurally restore permissions. Levivich makes excellent points above. Likewise, the idea that fulfilling bright line requirements (50/300) is somehow indicative that they are attempting to game the system is absurd. Blocking someone from "the club" based on the fact that they met the rules "too quickly" is ridiculous. We have the 30 day requirement and 500 edits for a reason. It's not like he added a space 250 times and deleted a space 250 times to achieve that. He was making substantive contributions. Now, the quality of those edits and other issues notwithstanding, EC should be restored forthwith. Any additional issues should be addressed in a different thread (the user seems remarkably versed in WP terminology for a noob). Buffs (talk) 21:50, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks everyone for the thoughtful comments and followups. I believe SFR has come to a decision about my EC status (see my talk page). My question for the group is: is there any kind of behavior not described in the rules that I should avoid? For example some have mentioned that I should spend a few months editing non ARBIPA topics for a while; should I head this advice? Should I make sure to have a daily mix of EC and non-EC edits? It seems my focus on EC specific pages raised a flag for users and I would like to avoid that. I'm open to suggestions and advice. Thank you DMH43 (talk) 22:12, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * And as for the reverts that Dovidroth has done from most of my edits, when can I undo them? Should I open discussions on the associated talk pages for these changes? DMH43 (talk) 00:29, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * For the reverts, I suggest a talk page message and give it a couple days to see if there are any objections. You don't need to have a mix of edits, but it's good to get experience in not one of the worst areas to edit, and the same goes for editing in other topics before diving in. That's my take, other views will likely vary. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:38, 28 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Endorse SFR's action, with consideration of restoring after user has shown a pattern of productive editing and an understand of what brought this about, using the normal appeal process. I generally agree with Dennis Brown's comment. SFR has shown abundant evidence to support their action.  // Timothy :: talk  22:06, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Endorse SFR's action, close AN thread appeal, user should receive a warning. The fact that there first 100+ edits were in WP:ARBPIA and that they only ceased when warned and that they immediately resumed editing WP:ARBPIA the second they reach 500 speaks for itself. Additionally DMH43's description of their edits "my edits have been valuable phrasing, formatting, citation and content improvements", sounds mostly like minor editing designed to reach EC as fast as possible. In recent similar cases in AN/I, I've seen editors lose their EC rights. <b style="color:#ff0000;">Tar</b><b style="color:#ff7070;">nis</b><b style="color:#ffa0a0;">hed</b><b style="color:#420000;">Path</b><b style="color:#bd4004;">talk</b> 07:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * So you're saying that he was warned, complied with the warning, and so now should be warned again? "Speaks for itself"? What does it say: that the editor follows instructions? "Content improvement" sounds like minor editing to you? Seriously? This is an even worse rationale than the one above it. Levivich (talk) 14:43, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Procedural note. I roughly count DMH43's non-IPA mainspace contributions at ≥520, and in about four hours it will have been 31 days since the account's first edit. Folly Mox (talk) 01:31, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

CommanderWaterford unban request
has requested an unban through the standard offer. (community ban discussion)

— Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 15:15, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * While this is certainly a better request than some that come here, to me, there are still too many questions and unresolved issues to unhesitatingly say that i would support the SO for CommanderWaterford. I don't want to come across harshly, i mostly fall in the Almost Everyone Should Be Able To Edit camp, so if i phrase them as questions to him perhaps my meaning is clear and it's also clear i hope for good answers:
 * What “mistakes that led to this” are you referring to?
 * Do you mean your continued assumption of bad faith, that many actors in the discussion which led to the current indef block were either incompetent or out to get you?
 * In the category of “kind of rude” would you include this arbitrary, unbelievable process of a single sysop with not even having 1/3 of my edits being unsatisfied with my behaviour because I did not answer properly in their eyes and the only comment I will make on this witch hunt and I already demonstrated it a thousand times so no need to repeat it. If you still think so, I have to accept this but that also would mean that you are free to disable my account immediately or would you say that these (and many other examples) are undeniably fully rude and disrespectful?
 * How is it that you didn't realize then how my actions were out of line with what Wikipedia stands for then but do now, i.e., what has changed in you and for you?
 * Would you ~ and what reasoning would you use ~ accept a request from a user whose block log already contains the phrase User has accepted there were issues in the past, and committed to do better regarding their last unblock? How are we to accept essentially the same words from you this time? Happy days, ~ LindsayHello 17:28, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * CW's responses, copied from their talk, are as follows:
 * Do you mean your continued assumption of bad faith, that many actors in the discussion which led to the current indef block were either incompetent or out to get you?
 * I was pretty upset 2 and a half year ago, so at this time I would have answered yes to this question. In retrospect, it was total nonsense. As I said in the appeal - I was in the stupid idea of just being the most active editor at this time my opinion would valued more than others
 * In the category of “kind of rude” would you include this arbitrary, unbelievable process of a single sysop with not even having 1/3 of my edits being unsatisfied with my behaviour because I did not answer properly in their eyes and the only comment I will make on this witch hunt and I already demonstrated it a thousand times so no need to repeat it. If you still think so, I have to accept this but that also would mean that you are free to disable my account immediately or would you say that these (and many other examples) are undeniably fully rude and disrespectful?
 * Without a doubt, fully rude and disrespectful.
 * How is it that you didn't realize then how my actions were out of line with what Wikipedia stands for then but do now, i.e., what has changed in you and for you?
 * In me? 2 Heart Attacks in 2023. I honestly did not care much in 2021 about Wikipedia's collaborative aspects, my Ego and Edit Count were unfortunately much more important to me at that time.
 * Would you ~ and what reasoning would you use ~ accept a request from a user whose block log already contains the phrase "User has accepted there were issues in the past, and committed to do better" regarding their last unblock? How are we to accept essentially the same words from you this time?
 * I would probably not if the request would come soon after the block and if I would not recognize any insight.
 * — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 20:19, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose this is not their first indefinite block/ban. They were already indef'd once before they were banned, successfully appealed it, and then went back to doing the exact same things. My standard for unbans has always been To support an unban the editor needs to convince me that the potential benefits to the Encyclopedia outweigh the known risk of disruption. That's true for a first unblock/unban, but even more true for a second.In short, this user was given a second chance and said essentially the same thing as they did above and then they went on behaving poorly. I do not support giving a third chance. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I recall this editor well and he's simply too prolific to manage. Monitoring and checking that quantity of edits isn't feasible, and I'm unwilling to support his return without monitoring and checking. So for me this is a non-starter.—<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b> T/C 00:45, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Ick. I had hopes that my asking certain questions would trigger some reflection in CW, and maybe the first couple did.  The response to the final, however, makes it impossible to accept this request:  He, himself, says he would likely not accept if it came soon after the block (OK, we're two and a half years into it) and "if I would not recognize any insight."  I'm afraid there isn't sufficient recognisable insight, so oppose. Happy days, ~ LindsayHello 09:51, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Meh. I find this unconvincing. For one, This would be their second unblock. Second, I am concerned about how they would deal with disputes with other editors. They mention that they edited eswiki and Wikidata; hovewer their edits there at Wikidata appear to be virtually 100% interwiki or description tweaking, and as such don't tell me anything about it. I am less certain about their track record on eswiki given that I don't speak spanish, hovewer, what I found likewise doesn't convince me they would work well with other editors, given that their talkpage edits appear to be mostly translation attributions; and the user talkpage edits are mostly templated (speedy deletion) notices. I am also still trying to wrap my head around what to make of es:Special:Redirect/revision/150296768, but it doesn't look great. Victor Schmidt (talk) 11:56, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose My viewpoint only, but I don't think that we need an editor whose username is that of a fictional serial rapist and domestic abuser. (previously discussed about half way down this section). I'm unconvinced that even a name change would be useful; after all, it doesn't address why it was chosen in the first place. Black Kite (talk) 12:08, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I was involved in the second indef discussion, and I remember what a damned mess that was. Like Tony, I feel we should be cautious when judging a second request to lift an indef block, and I just don't find the unblock request convincing, given CW's documented history of making commitments that he immediately disregards. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 16:03, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose request and answers to LindsayH don't convince me we won't be right back to the old problems. CW lacks the temperament for a collaborative editing environment and per Victor, their edits elsewhere don't show behavior has changed. Time served is not enough to indicate this is no longer a necessary block. Star   Mississippi  17:55, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Can someone find the link to the 2022 request referenced here here and at User_talk:CommanderWaterford/Archive_1 Thanks! Star   Mississippi  18:17, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * it's Special:Redirect/revision/1066660412. Victor Schmidt (talk) 18:43, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks @Victor Schmidt!
 * For the sake of history, User_talk:CommanderWaterford/Archive_1 doesn't appear to have ever adequately been addressed. If unblocked, should be absolutely limited to one account. Star   Mississippi  21:19, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Per WP:ROPE, I'd probably support an unblock. Two & a half years is a long time to (perhaps) recalibrate one's approach to collaboration. It's also a period of maturation (hopefully). And the pandemic was not the best time for anyone; while NOTTHERAPY clearly applies, judging someone's actions in that period as symptomatic of fundamental irreversibility would be looking at them through a glass (darkly). While coming back from a site ban is, all things being equal, more unusual than otherwise, I'm sure CW is under no illusion that there would be a second chance should recidivism raise its ugly head. No. Their feet, as they say, would not touch. At even one single hint of trouble. It would not be the case that there would be an outpouring of anger against the blocking admin; there would be no massive report at AN; and there certainly would not be such a lack of consensus for the block that it was deemed unsafe. On the contrary. The process would be: . Les jeux sont faits. By the way, in case anyone thinks we were friends  :)    ——Serial  19:06, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I saw this request yesterday but decided to think about it before commenting. I'm usually in favour of giving some rope after this length of time, but I see two reasons not to. One is the username, as pointed out above by Black Kite. This did not get much discussion at the time of the block because the user was going to be blocked anyway, but it betrays some boneheadedness to appeal the block without changing it or even mentioning it. The other is that this editor presumed to pass judgement on other people's efforts by taking part in new page patrol. I don't believe that anyone who does that without looking first at whether they have it in themself to be a good editor can change significantly, unless they are a child, of which I see no indication. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:48, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Given the history, there are too many reasons to conclude that an unban would not be worth the likely downsides. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:50, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose: in their UTRS appeal they mention editing the Spanish Wikipedia and staying out of trouble, and here they mention one of their past issues was assuming bad faith. As it was pointed out above by, CW was ibanned at eswiki for assuming bad faith and accusing another user of sockpuppetry with no evidence. Isabelle Belato 🏳‍🌈 14:17, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment - Why was your talkpage re-blocked, a few days ago? GoodDay (talk) 14:23, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Unless I'm missing something, TPA was restored on the 30th to allow CW to reply to concerns listed here. I don't see anything else at the moment. RickinBaltimore (talk) 14:27, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * My boo boo. I misread enabled as disabled. GoodDay (talk) 14:39, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose The fact that they have continued their behavior at another Wiki while banned here, leading to sanctions being placed on them, tells me all I need to know. Lifting the ban will result in being right back where we are now soon after. RickinBaltimore (talk) 14:25, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

No reply on an ANI section
Hello, I made a report at ANI, which has been closed without any reply. Was there an error on my side, or did it just go unnoticed? Should/could I reopen the report? And finally, why is it possible for a section to be archived without any feedback to its opener? Janhrach (talk) 15:30, 1 January 2024 (UTC)


 * If a section has no activity, it gets archived. The archiving bot doesn't know that there's no activity due to a lack of replies. 331dot (talk) 15:34, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I find it surprising that the bot doesn't have a feature to archive sections with replies only. This means that there are many sections that got archived without any response from admins. Janhrach (talk) 07:55, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * That's on purpose. If no one at all finds the section worth even commenting on, there's unlikely to be any action taken. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 18:07, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Create N-word redirect pls
From bibliography of the slave trade in the United States, link from Nigger Trader White (original language used in primary source article) redirect to John R. White. Please and thank you and also I'm sorry. jengod (talk) 03:51, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 07:57, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Appreciate it. I hope you have a wonderful week. Best, jengod (talk) jengod (talk) 08:01, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it be better if whatever filter this is allowed creations by ECP users? Mach61 (talk) 01:19, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This is from Mediawiki:Titleblacklist, not a WP:EF. There's an option to allow autoconfirmed editors, but I'm not sure if allowing EC editors is possible. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 02:16, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Given that any template editor, page mover, or sysop can bypass the title blacklist when needed, I don't see much reason to move down the prohibition on the title blacklist. Probably best to keep this as a fully-blacklisted part of the TB. EggRoll97 (talk) 02:32, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. The harm of blacklisting these titles (a small number of legitimate requests to create pages or redirects, although no automatic restrictions on editing them once created) is probably minimal; the risk of removing it from the blacklist (anyone, including sockpuppeteers, as long as their IP address isn't blocked, can create an account and create such pages 10 edits and 4 days later) is much greater. Animal lover &#124;666&#124; 17:31, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Or anyone in draftspace or talkspace; some other namespaces can be created by non-autoconfirmed registered users. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d c̄ ) 01:29, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I also agree. It took me less than one minute to verify that this was a valid request.  The request was filled about 4 hours after it was made, on the day after Christmas, which I think is very timely.  The current system seems to work fine.  Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 01:59, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Rangeblock request
Hello! Could someone please rangeblock 2604:3D08:2F84:2000::/64? Two IPs from this range, along with accounts Israelisascourge and Blooperman12345 (since blocked), have been repeatedly adding the same unconstructive and possibly defamatory content to Perpetrators, victims, and bystanders. IP disruption seems limited to this /64 (and I think it's likely that the accounts are on the same range), so I believe a rangeblock would be helpful. (Also, is this the right venue? I don't know if AN/I would be more appropriate — the stated scope in its header seems to have been limited to only "chronic and unmanageable behavioral problems" sometime since I last looked.) Thanks. Tol (talk &#124; contribs) @ 01:49, 3 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Blocked by . WP:AIV is the venue for reporting active, obvious, and persistent vandals. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 03:04, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you both. I thought this might be a bit more complex than AIV's scope, so I took it here — I'll take similar cases there in the future. Tol  (talk &#124; contribs) @ 03:13, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Administrators are generally familiar with /64 IPv6 ranges being handled similarly to single IPv4 blocks. See also WP:/64. DatGuyTalkContribs 13:32, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Unblock request of Sbb1413
The following is the unblock request of Sbb1413. I am transferring it here as a courtesy, and make no endorsement in doing so, I will also provide the link to the discussion leading to the block, Special:Permalink/999244891. 331dot (talk) 09:58, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I have already understood why I was banned in February 2021. I used to create zillions of useless redirects and behaved negatively towards other users (intentionally or unintentionally) under the username Soumya-8974. Now I understand the consequence of disruptive editing and behaving negatively towards other users. I have worked in English Wikivoyage, Wikimedia Commons and Bengali Wikipedia for more than two years, and I have largely avoided anything that could prevent working there. I know that banning is undertaken as a preventative measure and not as a punitiative measure. I hope the English Wikipedia community will unban me with certain terms and conditions, including topic bans on certain topics. I promise that I will avoid any disruptive editing in English Wikipedia and I won't behave negatively towards any users. I want topic bans on China, Pakistan and all redirects, and focus on topics related to India and transport systems instead. So many years have passed and everything has changed. I have already translated many English articles into Bengali. Now I want to translate Bengali articles into English. Thank you for your support and happy new year 2024. I want to copy this post to an appropriate venue by an uninvolved experienced editor.
 * Weak Oppose. One of the reasons for the block was "racism" and this is not addressed, unless "behaved negatively towards other users" is meant to cover this. Which it doesn't, not anywhere near sufficiently. I can imagine changing my vote here, given an excellent response from the user or given strong arguments in support of unblocking. CU data shows no immediately obvious recent block evasion. --Yamla (talk) 19:55, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Weak Oppose. One of the reasons for the block was "racism" and this is not addressed, unless "behaved negatively towards other users" is meant to cover this. Which it doesn't, not anywhere near sufficiently. I can imagine changing my vote here, given an excellent response from the user or given strong arguments in support of unblocking. CU data shows no immediately obvious recent block evasion. --Yamla (talk) 19:55, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Topic ban appeal
I'm here to appeal my topic ban from caste related articles that i recieved on 21 June 2021 : BLP, POV issues along with civility issues were cited as the reason for topic ban. :

In the future, I will only rely on broad perspective scholarly sources for the changes i wish to make and utilise venues such as WP:RSN and WP:DRN incase the dispute arises.

I will avoid making any edits that might be deemed promoting a POV. If I get reverted, I will seek consensus on the talk page and refrain from edit warring. I will not accuse or cast aspersions against any fellow editor. I will maintain civility and take additional time to seek the consensus.

It has been roughly two and a half years since I was topic banned from caste related articles, during this time my contribution has been constructive to Wikipedia, having brought Brajesh Singh to DYK section on Wikipedia's front page aswell as participating in recent NPP and AfC backlog drives. I have also been granted permissions such as new page patroller, rollback and pending changes reviewer. I have stayed out of trouble and I have not been blocked or received any other sanction other than this topic ban. I hope my topic ban will be lifted. Ratnahastin (talk) 11:21, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support Convincing appeal. ArvindPalaskar (talk) 12:52, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support - Ratnahastin deserves a chance to prove themselves. GoodDay (talk) 14:28, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support - I have been watching Ratnahastin edit since he was on a verge on getting topic banned. He has reformed big time as his appeal clearly shows and has been significantly productive for this site. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 16:57, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding reliable source consensus-required restrictions
The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

For the Arbitration Committee, &#8211;<span style="font-family:CG Times, times"> MJL &thinsp;‐Talk‐☖ 21:43, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Discuss this at: 

Proposed motions on email canvassing
The Arbitration Committee is considering a series of proposed motions related to allegations of inappropriate email canvassing within the Israel-Palestine topic area in violation of Wikipedia policy. Community statements and evidence submissions are welcome at the above link, or by email to if information cannot be posted publicly. For the Arbitration Committee, KevinL ( aka L235 · t · c) 21:56, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Discuss this at: 

English Wikipedia block and ban jurisdiction
Hello administrators. I have one question before I give the wrong advice. If an editor is blocked or banned in the English Wikipedia, are they also supposed not to edit in Simple English Wikipedia? Regards, Thinker78  (talk) 04:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)


 * No, English wikipedia bans/blocks only cover English Wikipedia. In fact editors often edit Simple English wikipedia to help their case at an unblock/unban request. Galobtter (talk) 04:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Jeffrey Epstein's associates list
This discussion is heading for a SNOW delete, if someone wants to look in at some point. BLP/crime issues too, possibly amounting to G10. ——Serial 20:47, 4 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Speedy deleted as a potential WP:BLP violation. Isabelle Belato 🏳‍🌈 20:51, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I get the feeling that the haste of this deletion process, even if the article really was a turd, is not going to go over so well among the general public. It's always a timesink hassle to have AfDs for breaking-news articles, and it's also a timesink hassle to have to see all kinds of breaking-news articles -- but I guess it is a chicken-and-egg issue. Oh well. I wish there were some way to just make everything hold off for a week. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 06:16, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * If news of the AFD "gets out" to people who don't understand Wikipedia processes, yeah it probably wouldn't look good. At the same time, the article was a massive BLP violation in its entirety, WP:BLPDEL unquestionably applied, and the speedy was the correct decision by our own policies. If I had seen it before the AFD opened, I would have resorted to summary deletion right off the bat. The Wordsmith Talk to me 06:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * This is an unpopular opinion but Wikipedia is not a newspaper and shouldn't cover breaking news at all. Breaking news reports are inherently unreliable as the focus is on being the first to report, not on being correct. It takes days, sometimes much much longer, for rational critique and neutral discussion to evolve for any topic, and Wikipedia should wait. We won't, of course, but it would be better if we did. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:27, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * While this has a whole bunch of BLP atop it that weighs easily in favor of deletion, we have a generally broad problem that editors want to create articles on any news-breaking event, which is against NOT#NEWS and NEVENT. We are to summarize news, and the release of these lists should only be a few lines in the associated trial article, until something more comes of them. We need more editors to be thinking about that for events that have existing reasonable targets. M asem (t) 14:51, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Basing a decision-making process around the ways that clueless or bad-faith actors will respond to your actions is simply substituting the values of those actors for our own; it should not be a consideration. --JBL (talk) 19:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Several people in the AFD discussion seem to be unaware of Ghislaine Maxwell. Uncle G (talk) 10:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm sure most editors in that discussion knew, if they needed to, that a near-5000 word article devoted less than 30 words to a similar topic and managed to do so without naming "associates" or committing any other gross BLP violations.  ——Serial  15:28, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The ones who pointed at the wrong article for the "couple of sentences" did not. Uncle G (talk) 16:49, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Dozens upon dozens of questionable redirects created by now-blocked user
Today I've discovered that Special:Contributions/JailBrokenIPODGoneWild, a user now blocked for harassment, had created dozens upon dozens of questionable redirects related to public transportation. The redirects are all from color terms to a specific transportation line or service in systems where lines are depicted with colors on maps but not referred to by color in conversation or in official operations. The problem is that these redirects have qualifiers in front of the color terms like "Dark" and "Light", when nobody speaks like that, at least not in America. Nobody will say "Take the Dark Red Line"; people just say "Take the Red Line". If a given system has multiple lines or services that share a core color with different shades, the core color title should be a disambiguation page. Example of redirects that I just turned into disambiguation pages today are Green Line (Metra) and Orange Line (Metra). Again, very few if anyone would actually use the color qualifiers in conversation and thus I'm led to conclude that these redirects are implausible. The issue is the sheer quantity of them - way too many to list at RFD. How do we proceed from here? Taking Out The Trash (talk) 21:52, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia talk:Redirects for discussion. – Novem Linguae (talk) 22:09, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Holy crap. This user has created a whopping 12,000 redirects, and that's not including the 500ish additional redirects that have already been deleted. There's no way that all of those are valid. This may be a bigger issue than it seems on the surface. Taking Out The Trash (talk) 22:00, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Some redirects appear valid (e.g. List of countries by calling code) but the majority appear to be nonsense. I think we need community consensus to allow admins to review and delete at their discretion. GiantSnowman 22:03, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Looks like a 13k editor that was not blocked for socking, so WP:G5 and WP:NUKE is not an option here. Their activity and the block were both over a year ago. Looks like they were on the redirect autopatrol list at the time of their blocking, so all their stuff got autopatrolled. RAL at the time of their blocking, with them on it. – Novem Linguae (talk) 22:07, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * (from RFD): This is, uh, not good... The worst part is that many of the redirects look plausible, at least the most recently created ones. I think the best way to proceed is to have a formal, community-wide discussion on Are Such Redirects Helpful or Valid, preferably at the Village Pump, and if community consensus is that they are not, and that they would be deleted at RfD, then mass-delete them as a community action.  Cremastra (talk) 22:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This user has had plenty of redirects come to RfD before and I think they should probably continue to be handled that way; I fear that the mere fact of being blocked for an unrelated reason could place unwarranted scrutiny upon these redirects. While some of these redirects may be undesirable, their problems seem at a glance to generally be in the class of "implausible search term", not very harmful, rather than "targets wrong place", actively harmful. At the least, the most recent redirects are very helpful creations.  J 947  ‡ edits 01:51, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I skimmed through a few hundred of these redirects and most seem at first glance to lie somewhere in the space between "probably fine" and "implausible search term"; nothing Neelixual. Is there a way to find the ones that have inbound links? Folly Mox (talk) 03:06, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Was it unrelated? Was it for harassment at all? It is unclear from Special:Diff/1106477198 what prompted the 2022 block by Daniel Case, or the determination that this was a trolling/harassment-only account. I haven't found any noticeboard or talk page discussion since the 2009 discussion of the creation of redirects at Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive579. I haven't found a single talk page contribution from this account in 13 years, so it is perplexing what the trolling/harassment was. And the block log entry is no help. Uncle G (talk) 02:33, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Looks like it was in response to this AIV report, which just expressed concerns about the redirects. I'd be curious to hear how people reached the conclusion that this was a vandalism-only account/troll: at a glance most of the redirects appear to be pretty clearly in good faith, whatever one might think of their usefulness. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 02:51, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

I RfD'd a few of JBIGW's creations, and wasn't surprised to see them blocked eventually. (I'm not dismissing Uncle G's concerns about the procedure of the block, but in either case that level of WP:COMMUNICATE was going to lead to a block sooner or later.) My perception of JBIGW's redirects in general, though, is similar to Folly Mox': Most probably weren't worth creating, but at the same time don't need to be deleted. Before we go too far talking about a CSD X3 or whatever, could someone put together a list of, I dunno, 20 redirects they think would almost certainly fail RfD, and say how many redirs they had to go through to compile that list? Right now it's hard to get a feel for the shape of the problem, and if it is such a massive issue, this shouldn't be too hard to put together. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 04:50, 23 December 2023 (UTC) (Undid automatic archival) So what exactly should be done here? I haven't had the chance to comb through all 12,000+ redirects, but I can tell you that the ones like "Dark Red Line", "Dark Green Line", "Light Green Line" etc when referring to transit lines are implausible, since nobody talks like that. The problem is that there are simply too many of these alone to send them all to RFD. Taking Out The Trash (talk) 19:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It is more that Taking Out The Trash said above that JailBrokenIPODGoneWild was blocked for harassment and J947 commenting that this was unrelated and could result in unwarranted scrutiny. But from what Extraordinary Writ has turned up the block log entry is misleading, the block was actually directly about the redirects, and they were characterized by Sir Joseph as vandalism. That report was made on 2022-08-24; the most recently deleted redirects, created on 2022-08-20, were the ones from Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 18; and the most recently not-deleted redirects were the likes of Postal code (United States) and List of Internet top-level domains (country) which may be useless, but which as Extraordinary Writ says do not really say vandalism-only account let alone trolling/harrassment.  They also contain KOP, Pennsylvania and 84, PA created that day which seem unlikely but conceivable search terms that are fairly obviously in line with the target articles's contents.  And from the previous month Geography of State College, Pennsylvania and its ilk seem uncontroversial and Government of Veracruz actually got used by someone else in an article  So I think that you are right, and both a case for vandalism and a case for "Holy crap. 12,000 redirects" need to be made with examples.  Uncle G (talk) 10:47, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * For the record, I think Postal code (United States) is a great redirect. How am I supposed to remember what they call their postal codes? Zippers? Something like that.  Cremastra (talk) 15:15, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * In this case, the best solution is to have Postal codes have a list of links to individual countries' pages where they exist (possibly as a navigation box); I believe that parantheticals generally make unneeded redirects, except where either there is the potential for a future article, or where an ENGVAR-alternate article with the parenthetical already exists (e.g Orange (color)). Animal lover &#124;666&#124; 08:58, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm generally lenient on redirects – my criterion is, is this potentially useful to a reader?, as they are after all WP:CHEAP and generally harmless (they are usually a small net-positive, even if they seem unusual), but we should probably leave theses specifics to later. (And I'm aware I'm probably not wholly within policy with my views). 🎄Cremastra 🎄 (talk) 13:05, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see a problem with them. Take, for example, Light Green Line (Shanghai). The target notes that the line is displayed as "light green" on the system maps (Green Line (Shanghai Metro) correctly redirects to Line 12), and there's no ambiguity. It is 100% plausible to call it the "light green line" because that's what it is. 🎄Cremastra 🎄 (talk) 19:57, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * We're not quite in Miniscule boobies territory, but the similar situation with Neelix in 2015 is what WP:X1 was created for. With consensus we could just reactivate it, add this user's name to the criterion, and let it be handled naturally until no longer needed. The Wordsmith Talk to me 22:17, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * What should be done is make a case with examples, as two of us stated above. Because the rest of us looking through this edit history haven't seen one leaping out at us.  Actually make your case.  You're leaping to the next step of asking something to be done assuming that a case has been made.  It has not been. Uncle G (talk) 14:26, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I have been blocked on it wiki in an irregular way
Dear Administrators, months ago, I have incorrectly been given an indefinite block on the Italian Wikipedia against the guidelines. Considering the inappropriateness of the block, I created several multiple accounts, with which I contributed constructively, however, they have all been blocked. I tried to ask several times to Italian Wikipedia Administrators if I could be unblocked, but my requests were almost immediately removed and ignored. What can I do to get unblocked? If you would like major details about my situation, you are free to ask me. Thank you and Kind regards 14 novembre (talk) 15:57, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed gained largely through ECR violations
recently gained extended-confirmed permissions, but looking through their history it appears that a large portion of their earlier edits were ECR violations. I don't have the time right now to handle this, so I'm leaving a note here. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:06, 2 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Hi @ScottishFinnishRadish, what's an ECR violation? And which earlier edits? I'm not really sure what this is about so if anyone can explain that would be great. Chavmen (talk) 14:44, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised you're asking what an WP:ECR violation is because you seem to have understood it on Nov 30 and also on Dec 26? Also a question for admins: why didn't this creation trigger edit filter 1276? Levivich (talk) 15:47, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * It looks like the filter was using the "page_id" variable to check if the article was just created, which according to the documentation is unreliable. I've switched it so it uses the "page_age" variable instead, which should hopefully fix it. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 15:54, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * More likely that the page was created in userspace and then moved to mainspace, while the filter only checks for new creations in the mainspace. DatGuyTalkContribs 17:05, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, that would make sense. I've edited the filter so it should match pages moved into mainspace as well. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 17:30, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately there's no way to access the wikitext during a page move. I've modified the filter to check the new title, which is the best we can do. (Also, there's nothing wrong with  anymore; WP:EFD is just really out of date.) Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:11, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not familiar with all the Wiki lingo, so you mean EC protected?
 * When I knew the page was EC protected I always put in edit requests? Isn't that how things are done? I didn't think this was unreasonable or against any rules.
 * The edits mentioned above, I was involved in prior to any EC protection on the page and when I noticed the protection was placed on the page I left the page and didn't edit it further. You can see that looking back at when the tag was placed.
 * I also created a page about an organisation to do with Israel which I didn't think controversial. I've edited several other organisations in the same area that weren't EC protected - NGOs etc.
 * I also requested EC protection on several pages (Bassem Eid, UN Women for example) that were previously vandalised and then I did not edit them.
 * This feels like a technicality that isn't very clear and I can't see how my edits were negative in anyway or controversial. Chavmen (talk) 23:03, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorting this, stand by. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 22:51, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi Tamzin,
 * Just to clarify, if a page doesn't have the EC protection tag but still falls under an Israel/Arab/Palestinian topic I shouldn't have edited it?
 * For instance, pages like LGBT rights in Israel, notable people pages Israeli Arab etc, NGOs, history pages.
 * Because majority of my edits were in non-EC protected pages.
 * The claim is that the majority of my edits were in EC pages which I don't see how that's possible since I had stayed away from them or put in edit requests.
 * Shall I count them manually to demonstrate? Chavmen (talk) 23:27, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, not all pages that fall under the ARBECR are extended-confirmed protected on a technical level. Non-extendedconfirmed editors are expected to abide by the ARBECR on all pages. As I've written in your user rights log, when you hit 1,000 edits you may re-apply for extendedconfirmed to me or at WP:PERM/EC. It seems you're interested in LGBTQ topics, so if you're looking for things to edit not about the Arab-Israeli conflict, there's no shortage of LGBTQ articles to work on. I started a vague outline of Draft:Judaism and LGBT topics a while ago, if you're interested.Also, since Indigenous Coalition for Israel has been PRODded and de-PRODded, but hasn't been substantively edited by EC editors, I won't ECR-delete it, but I'll split the difference by draftifying and EC-move-protecting it. Any EC editor willing to take responsibility for its contents can move it back. --  Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 23:48, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi Tamzin,
 * I do feel like this is an unfair sanction placed on me for editing in good faith, with constructive edits and with as much neutrality as possible - given everyone has their own opinions (which I openly admit) and try to keep them out of Wikipedia and use sources correctly and justly.
 * I have had a long think about this and took the time to go through my 555 edits and make some pertinent notes in order to appeal the sanction, or at the very least have it reduced to a fair number seeing as over 400 edits were on non-EC protected pages and I received no warning from any editors regarding my edits on these pages.
 * I know time is precious so I will try to keep this simple and to the point.
 * 1) There are a minimum of 100 edits which are all newcomer tasks and me getting used to the platform. I created my account on 18 October and started editing on 1 November after taking time to read WP:MOS and standards.
 * 2) I also initially edited articles on Thermobaric Weapon and Bearing Witness (film). On the page Thermobaric Weapon, I took various issues to the Talk page with another non-EC editor and one EC editor, and was not told that this was not allowed due to restrictions. Both pages were NOT EC protected when I was editing it - hence my understanding that if the page is NOT tagged with EC protection, any editor can edit it (including IP users which I have seen done).
 * 3) After this I made edits on civil marriage in Israel, Maghrebi Jews, Toshavim, Austerity in Israel, The Jerusalem Post, Negev Bedouin, LGBT rights in Israel, Pride House Beersheba and made translations for pages on Israel (I am working on Haya Shenhav) and was never told specifically that I needed to be EC for any of these edits. Further, no edit was controversial or flagged for any reason. I also expanded this non-EC protected stub with no comment from any EC editors that I couldn't.
 * 4) I edited pages on Bassem Eid, Yoseph Hadadd, Sima Sami Bahous, Sara Jama and UN Women and improved the pages by adding neutrality and sources as they were coming up in the news a lot. In fact, I recall making 20-30 edits on one page purely based on an editor misquoting and misrepresenting sources, and I then asked to have the page EC protected and didn't edit it anymore . This demonstrates my understanding that if the EC protection is NOT on the page, I am free to edit.
 * The UN Women page was particularly vulnerable to a POV IP user which I spent several days correcting the poor sources used and making the criticism section more neutral than it was to start, see here . The user also accused me of being a "sockpuppet" even when I am obviously not and the user was making the page heavily POV.
 * 5) I also expanded this article with again no editor commenting that I couldn't. I also think the article is better for it as are the various articles I edited in the area. I also asked for EC protection on this page and then didn't edit it.
 * 6) Whenever I did encounter a page that was EC protected and needed an edit that I thought valid, I followed procedure and did a non-EC edit request. When the conversation was going in circles I followed WP:LETITGO and left the page and actually didn't return when I hit the 501 edits.
 * 7) Even here, another example of a non-EC protected page where I queried an edit in the Talk page and was not told I shouldn't. I also think it shows an example of taking things to talk first, before editing because I know these areas can be sensitive.
 * 8) Final point, I created an article and several editors questioned the notability but none mentioned anything about an EC violation (re the ICFI article).
 * TLDR: My edits are constructive, thoughtful, and non-combative. I was unaware of what is referred to as an ECR violation and was not warned as such over the last three months in any of my edits. Hence, why I find it a shame now that I am being reprimanded for this without a warning first.
 * I wanted to keep my opinions to myself, but I am allowing myself one, I am not here to break rules but if these technical rules were not mentioned to me at any point by more senior editors - then shouldn't a warning be issued first? I do feel like this process will drive away good editors (which I consider myself to be, in my free time, between work and kids). So I appeal to your good faith and of the other admins here.
 * Best, Chavmen.
 * P.S. I would love to work on the page you drafted. Thanks for the invite. Chavmen (talk) 03:29, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I must admit that until relatively recently, I didn't understand that editing a page that isn't formally locked is still a violation. This is not at all obvious.
 * The sanction of resetting the counter to 0 and imposing a 1000-edit goal, as if the user has done nothing and needs to start from scratch, despite the significant constructive work demonstrated by Chavmen, appears punitive, excessive, and demotivating. @Tamzin, I urge you to reconsider this. The rationale for EC protection is to deter edit-warriors and sockpuppets, which Chavmen does not seem to be, based on their edit history.
 * I would like also to point to different treatment of @IOHANNVSVERVS, who continues to edit with no sanction, and @DMH43, who had EC rights revoked (for gaming) but then restored after 576 mainspace edits, without resetting the counter to 0. Marokwitz (talk) 07:11, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * My rough count, based on a read through contribs and XTools, was 40ish non-ECR-violating comments, which I rounded up to 53 to allow for an even 1,000 edit count as a target. Looking again at XTools, I think I undercounted non-mainspace. Let's call 900 the target. Still rounding up a bit on the number of non-violations, I think, but I like round numbers. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 07:41, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I think this is inaccurate, I looked at XTools now and personally counted 151 non-violating edits in the article space alone, not including talk and other spaces. The number of EC-related edits broadly construed was 261, so I propse that Chavmen should do another 261 edits to regain EC, for a total of 761 - for your consideration. Marokwitz (talk) 12:42, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, let's see. Pride House, sure. Some aspects of Negev Bedouin don't fall under PIA, but these all do. Ditto these edits to Maghrebi Jews. Jay Ruderman is a mixed bag; I guess one could count the 4 edits on the 7th and 8th as non-PIA but at this point we're really nitpicking. Shenhav, sure. Alfred Ngaro, 7 out of 9 are fine. LGBT rights in Israel are heavily politicized within the Arab–Israeli conflict, as I'm sure you know, and Chavmen's edits largely concern that politicization. And I'm going to stop here because there's no way the remaining pages are going to get us to 139, and non-mainspace edits aren't going to bridge the gap either. I stand by 900 as a target. And look, that's not a binding admin determination. That's my recommendation as removing admin. This isn't an AE action; any other admin is welcome to restore EC before 900 edits if they feel Chavmen has done the necessary work. (And, conversely, an admin could decline restoring at 900 if they feel she hasn't.) But for me at least, consider this a final answer. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 18:39, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, let's see. Pride House, sure. Some aspects of Negev Bedouin don't fall under PIA, but these all do. Ditto these edits to Maghrebi Jews. Jay Ruderman is a mixed bag; I guess one could count the 4 edits on the 7th and 8th as non-PIA but at this point we're really nitpicking. Shenhav, sure. Alfred Ngaro, 7 out of 9 are fine. LGBT rights in Israel are heavily politicized within the Arab–Israeli conflict, as I'm sure you know, and Chavmen's edits largely concern that politicization. And I'm going to stop here because there's no way the remaining pages are going to get us to 139, and non-mainspace edits aren't going to bridge the gap either. I stand by 900 as a target. And look, that's not a binding admin determination. That's my recommendation as removing admin. This isn't an AE action; any other admin is welcome to restore EC before 900 edits if they feel Chavmen has done the necessary work. (And, conversely, an admin could decline restoring at 900 if they feel she hasn't.) But for me at least, consider this a final answer. -- Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 18:39, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Consistent response to gaining ECP through ECR violations
It seems how to respond to this various considerably; some editors, like and  (who I raised a few years ago), are allowed to keep ECP, while others like  and  have it removed.

I think it would both be possible and beneficial to determine a consistent response to this; when an editor is otherwise believed to be acting in good faith should ECP be revoked or allowed to stand?

This would both ensure equity in a case where equity is possible, and it would let editors know whether they should or should not bring these incidents to admins attention - I note that I've seen several other examples, on both sides, that I haven't raised because I assumed it was seen as a non-issue and fait accompli. BilledMammal (talk) 07:48, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Related to this, I went through editors who have edited 2023 Israel-Hamas war and have less than 1000 edits, and found the following:
 * - Possibly gaming. 653 edits, first 500 are primarily rapid-fire adding short descriptions.
 * - Gaming. 663 edits, first 500 are primarily adding and removing one letter from sentences in an article in the draft space. I think the purpose was to be able to edit articles related to the Russian-Ukrainian war rather than the Israel-Hamas war, but the result is the same.
 * - Possibly gaming. 664 edits, first 500 are primarily rapid-fire adding categories.
 * - 256 edits. Hasn't earned ECP yet, but well on their way with edits to articles that should be under ECR.
 * I didn't find any that were both not banned and had earned ECP through editing ECR pages, but I felt these still warranted mentioning somewhere. BilledMammal (talk) 09:04, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Reviewing other pages, I found:
 * - Possibly gaming. 599 edits, first 500 edits are primarily rapid-fire adding wikilinks, as well as a few edits to pages that should be under ECR.
 * - Possibly gaming. 599 edits, first 500 edits are primarily rapid-fire adding short descriptions, as well as a few edits to pages that should be under ECR.
 * BilledMammal (talk) 09:11, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * User:Bishonen removed ECP from President Loki on the 21st, no edits since. Ronash stopped editing in October, I've removed ECP just in case. Both were obvious. I'm wondering if both just abandoned their accounts and, who knows? Doug Weller  talk 13:32, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, there should be a consistent response. Remove it and have them do 500 normal edits. That will hopefully learn how to edit and it is no big deal to have to do 500 more edits elsewhere.  Doug Weller  talk 13:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The goal of ECP is to limit articles to users who have reasonably familiarized themselves with Wikipedia's norms, and who have put in enough effort on the current account that it's much less likely for a sock to have done so. My standard for removing EC is1. where the user's course of edits does not show that level of effort and familiarization and

2. where it appears that this is due to a deliberate pursuit of EC statusThe latter can be inferred by speed and by whether they dive right into ECP'd/ECR'd areas. There might be a new user who just loves copy-editing or updating box office figures, and hits 30/500 without learning much of how to edit. But they typically won't have done that in one rapid series of edits, and typically won't start arguing about body counts in Gaza on edit #501. Conversely, if a user's intent is clearly to edit about ECP/ECR areas, but they put in their time and make 500 meaningful edits (or, well, 500 edits of which a reasonable proportion are meaningful; everyone makes some number of typo fixes and vandal reverts), they should not have ECP revoked. They may be at risk of being declared tendentious, but they haven't gamed anything.As to restoration, we should probably settle on what I've done above (crediting a rough estimate of the number of non-violating edits, subtracting that from 500, and saying "talk to me/PERM after that many edits"), or just making it a flat 500. I have a slight preference for the former, but only a slight one. Although there should be leeway for some discretion in either direction, e.g. someone who hits the magic number but has also been blocked for an ECRvio in that time might still be denied, and someone might get an early grant if they showed exemplary behavior and did some really high-quality content work. (In a non-ECR context, we had one editor recently get a GA before hitting EC, so anything is possible.) --  Tamzin  &#91;<i style="color:#E6007A">cetacean needed</i>&#93; (they&#124;xe&#124;she) 18:57, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Just a comment regarding @Levivich's comments above RE: not knowing about EC violations. The two examples brought up here and here  actually show that I didn't know I was doing anything wrong:
 * In 1) I asked for a non-EC edit request on a protected page and in 2) I had started my comments before the page was actually placed under protection and then noticed several comments later and left. These examples prove my point that I didn't know I was doing anything wrong in editing pages with non-EC protection because as soon as they became EC protected, I closed the talk and left or asked for an edit request (this also occurred on the Thermobaric Weapon page BTW).
 * I also want to point out here, on a talk page with several (I counted 6 so far) non-EC editors, none are told that they can't comment when the page is protected and related to ARBPIA. In fact, @Levivich didn't mention it then and is involved in this talk.
 * So the rules are not being made clear and this is a shame, because it seems that this is only placed on me now because I hit EC but other editors such as in this talk page are not warned.
 * As I worked hard and in good faith, it is disappointing seeing as it just seems like different rules apply at different times.
 * Thanks @Tamzin for collating that list - beyond my tech skills - some of those edits were made after 500 - Battle of Latrun, Use of human shields by Hamas, 2023 Israel-Hamas War hostage crisis totaling 12 edits which I would have had no idea violated anything seeing as I was EC at the time. I also didn't "jump" to these articles and believe I edited the Road to Recovery page (8 edits) first which you have placed as borderline. Anyway, that would be a total of 20 edits after EC status in this area reducing the 261 so-called "violating" edits to 241.
 * Again though, it's not the number I care about to be perfectly honest, it's the fact these rules seem to apply now that I have made EC, with no warning, and still as per my example, in countless other articles and talk pages non-EC editors are not warned or reprimanded. Chavmen (talk) 00:04, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * P.S. Thanks for everyone's input, it has been fun to learn about these things nevertheless :) Chavmen (talk) 00:05, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify - The tables are not signed, but I posted them, not Tamzin... Sorry for being unclear Marokwitz (talk) 06:04, 4 January 2024 (UTC)


 * The consistent response should be a topic ban from whatever protected topic they tried to game the system to edit. Such a topic ban should of course be open to negotiation in the future when the editor becomes genuinely established. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 06:26, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi @Horse Eye's Back, is this comment pertaining to me? Or to other user comments?
 * As I stated, there was no "gaming" on my part. As far as I was aware I wasn't violating any rules with my edits and no editor nor admin told me otherwise for a full two months of editing. There were no EC restriction tags on pages I edited when I was under 500 edits. I made two non-EC edit requests in total before this time as per the rules.
 * I still don't see how this qualifies for violating any rules when this page here has several non-EC editors not being reprimanded for being involved in discussions on ARBPIA topics (several senior editors are involved in these discussions - User:Levivich and User:Dimadick).
 * Also here, this user made changes to an ARBPIA related section (which was not EC protected at the time) with no warning or reprimand after. I had been watching this page previously and commented on the Talk at 11:10, 18 December 2023 (UTC) that several users shouldn't edit-war here and to discuss instead. This then brought the eyes of other senior editors who then EC protected the page at 20:27, 18 December 2023 (UTC) and I subsequently left the discussion when I noticed.
 * Even when I created an article on an Israel related organization, no editor warned or reprimanded me, see talk, and as far as I was aware the articles that were EC protected were the only ones out of bounds. Hence if you look at this table by Markowitz (thanks) you can see that only 3 of the articles are EC protected and I edited them after I reached 500 edits as per the rules.
 * To illustrate the double standard a little more, just see this section above. User:DMH43 edited ARBPIA related articles that were not EC protected for the majority of their edits pre EC status, then when they hit their 500 edits solely edited ARBPIA topics. DMH43 appealed, regained their EC status, and continues to edit, yet I am reprimanded far harsher and have not made controversial edits nor been in edit wars.
 * To me, it seems that the rules pertain sometimes but not all the time and not to everyone.
 * I can't say that I am not disappointed. The rules are either blanket rules for everyone and are told to everyone all the time, or there are no rules. Chavmen (talk) 10:51, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * It was a response to BilledMammal and I would only support it going forwards, I would not expect it to be retroactively applied to you or any other account. IMO if the effect is the same as gaming we should treat it the same. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 11:04, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I do think that it's also worth noting the extensive canvassing in the topic area (and I'm sure that the one reported there isn't the only incident, just the only one we've gotten proof for.) The 500/30 restriction is an important backstop against that - in fact, my recollection is that that was one of the main things it was originally created for - and is likely the main reason that that hasn't been worse. That doesn't mean every editor who gamed the system was canvassed, of course, but it's a serious enough problem that I'm of the opinion that it should be enforced rigorously. I do like the idea of a topic ban from the area they seemed to have wanted to game the system to get access to, if it's obvious - I think it's reasonable to interpret 500/30 gaming as a sign that an editor is at a high risk for WP:TEND issues, especially if they immediately become a WP:SPA after they have access to the desired area (which the ones who get reported generally do.) After all, a major sign of tendentious editing is a willingness to game the system; if an editor games the system to gain access to a particular topic area and has a clearly discernible POV (which, in my experience, has been true for basically every editor where this has come up), I think it's reasonable to presume that they'll continue to game the system in other ways in the service of that POV once they start editing, which amounts to a tendentious intent. To me, the easiest way to resolve that concern isn't "do X edits elsewhere", it's "spend a while editing meaningfully enough in other topic areas that we can be sure they're not just going to leap straight into a 500/30 WP:CTOP area and start gaming policy in the service of a POV the same way they gamed the 500/30 restriction." The really big problem with gaming the 500/30 restriction ultimately isn't that it undermines the 500/30 restriction (though that's bad), the real problem is that someone who games this restriction is almost always, by definition, an SPA with strong feelings about a particular topic area, who has also devoted most of their first edits to demonstrating their willingness to game policy. --Aquillion (talk) 11:31, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Implementing a consistent response
It appears there is a desire for a consistent response; while it isn't clear what form that should take going forwards, going backwards it seems agreed that it should involve removing ECP from editors. I see that most of the editors I listed have been addressed, leaving only, , and ; see below for an assessment of their current edits. For IOHANNVSVERVS and Osps7, I would support removing their ECP, with it not to be restored before they reach 900 and 1200 edits respectively. For Onesgje9g334, I would support an indefinite block that may be lifted by any administrator; their gaming is far too blatant and of no benefit to the encyclopedia (for example, deleting the word "military" letter by letter;, , , etc), and so I feel they should have to explain that gaming before they are allowed to continue editing.

List of violations by Onesgje9g334; note that I haven't reviewed articles where they only made one edit.

List of violations by IOHANNVSVERVS; note that I haven't reviewed articles where they only made one edit; instead, I've extrapolated from the articles where they made more than one edit to produce the figure above.

List of violations by Osps7; note that I haven't reviewed articles where they only made one edit; instead, I've extrapolated from the articles where they made more than one edit to produce the figure above.

BilledMammal (talk) 05:05, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Question about ARBPIA sanctions
Can somebody clarify this for me? Honestly I still do not understand it. The ARBPIA policy this page states:

and: and: and: What is the basis for enforcing EC sanctions on pages lacking a template?Marokwitz (talk) 06:19, 4 January 2024 (UTC)


 * The instructions say ask at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Clerks if you aren't clear. Doug Weller  talk 15:33, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok, done. Marokwitz (talk) 20:11, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

This is probably in the wrong subsection
I had been planning this morning to open a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Gaming the system regarding the wording of WP:PGAME, but now that I see this thread, I'm wondering if it might be better suited to WP:VPP. However in the course of background compilation, I found what I think might be all the discussions at AN and ANI on this topic since the um problem: Related discussion at. Haven't looked at AE. Folly Mox (talk) 16:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * (not directly related)
 * (involved)
 * (live, above)
 * (this thread; circular link)
 * (involved)
 * (live, above)
 * (this thread; circular link)
 * (involved)
 * (live, above)
 * (this thread; circular link)
 * (this thread; circular link)

Arbitration motion regarding GiantSnowman
The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

For the Arbitration Committee, firefly  ( t · c ) 19:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Discuss this at: 

Looking for admins for ARBPIA related Signpost interview
I am drafting next WP:SIGNPOST WikiProject report about Israel and Palestine, and specifically looking for admins to answer last few questions, seen on Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/WikiProject report draft. Given niche sensitivity of ARBPIA, I am posting it here. Any/other feedback welcome of course ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 23:48, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Request for batch revert
I'd like to request that the edits done by permanently blocked editor Daxtonlab with "created references section" in the summary (1639 edits) be reverted. These edits create empty References sections in all those articles. Note, these edits can also be selected by a date range.

If the tools can't do this, all of this editor's edits (4107 edits) should be reverted. His other (all well intentioned) edits aren't as bad, but none of them are improvements. They mostly make meaningless changes to "website=" parameters or add incorrect "journal=" parameters to citations, or introduce WP:OL in text. Dan Bloch (talk) 00:47, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * , thank you for blocking that editor. User:Danbloch, the incompetence was quite overwhelming. Drmies (talk) 02:53, 4 January 2024 (UTC)


 * @Danbloch. All done, I think, (the revert of "created references section") except for those where there had been a subsequent edit, I spied the use of WPCleaner on some and a redirect. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 02:59, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Dan Bloch (talk) 03:26, 4 January 2024 (UTC)


 * No comment on the reversion, just a note that I've seen several editors advocating adding blank references sections to unsourced articles in VP, the idea being that it encourages the addition of sources. Espresso Addict (talk) 10:00, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I've been giving that tip since 2005 in User:Uncle G/Wikipedia triage. Are we blocking people for adding   to unreferenced-tagged articles and mass-reverting that, now?  (Example mass-reverted random edit Special:Diff/1190018596 seems to do exactly that.)  You've lost the plot, people.  The overlinking and citation parameter twiddlings are one thing, but adding a references section is quite another.  It is a positive edit and is a step in the right direction for the article.  Whereas taking it out is a step backwards.  This request was wrong to make and wrong to fulfil.  Uncle G (talk) 14:05, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that it would have been better to have waited for a consensus to emerge before the edits were rolled back (no opinion on the block). In general, I think my opinion is: the larger the number of edits to make and/or reverse at once, the more important to gain consensus beforehand. All the best, &zwj;—&zwj;a smart kitten[ meow] 17:13, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, what?? I do that all the time -- every time I make a draft article I start with a empty ref section and I'd think formatting one for an unreferenced article would be a constructive change (at the very least it reduces the amount of work for a later editor who adds refs). <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 21:38, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Uncle G, between you and me, I don't see the point of removing that empty section--my note on the editor's incompetence was related to the edits of theirs that I objected to. Drmies (talk) 17:19, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Indefinite block plus reverting every single edit of a well-intentioned user for this (creating references sections and not following MOS:OVERLINK) is a bit overkill, especially compared to the discussion above where a user with 30 blocks is still given a "second chance". There's absolutely a double standard between regular editors and WP:UNBLOCKABLES and it should honestly be addressed before it becomes too entrenched as a standard. I don't think removing all of these edits was a "net positive" for the encyclopedia. Chaotıċ Enby   (t · c) 21:49, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Like and, I don't quite get the point of removing the blank References sections.  I also don't see the point of adding them in bulk like that, but it would seem to do slightly more good than bad to do so to individual articles that need references.  I agree it might spur someone to add something.  A very minor thing, and this seems like an overreaction to the situation.  I can't support keeping someone blocked if the primary reason is they added Reference sections. Dennis Brown - 2&cent; 01:12, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Looking into this in a little more detail, it looks like Daxtonlab's main problem was with overlinking, with the edits that I examined being tagged as a newcomer task. We might need to make sure that the newcomer task instructions are better, as the instructions on meta suggest linking "planet" (which I would consider on the boundary with useless) under good examples. There also seems to be a dispute over whether it is necessary/acceptable to relink in the infobox; some of the edits is objecting to appear to fall mainly into that category. Espresso Addict (talk) 01:40, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * No comment on this particular block as I haven't reviewed the situation. I share Dennis Brown's concern generally with blocking a user for adding reference sections, but we also advise against mass-editing that makes no visible change or only minor cosmetic changes to articles, which I think this falls under. But I had a thought: can we make the relevant code automatically produce a tag similar to unreferenced if the references section is empty? That would make adding empty references sections pretty useful. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:12, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Like you I haven't looked into the ins and outs of this particular case, but I would welcome a bot that adds a "references" section to articles that don't have one, so welcoming a human editor who does the same is a no-brainer. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)