Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive48

Holywarrior block
I've blocked for 48 hours per the below (see relevant above thread):
 * "Third rate-liar" is a personal attack and any editor (admin or not) would be in the right to place an NPA warning on the talk page of the issuant. User:Holywarrior's user page is also inappropriate in my opinion by listing diffs with spurious added commentary by him (e.g. "CVU deletion trial" as opposed to an MfD that failed) and ("Admin who tried to bully me").  The entire commentary above is suggestive of trolling.

I submit the block here for review -- Samir  धर्म 20:57, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Despite the fact, that I don't consider User:Holywarrior to easy to deal with (and a change of username may be an option), the thread above has a prehistory, as User:VandalPatrol (now indef blocked) and socks were busy making threats against User:Holywarrior and try to give the impression of acting as delegates of the CVU. See userpage history of VandalPatrol of and Articles for deletion/Bhurabal. Anyway, 48h block may be OK for cooling down. --Pjacobi 21:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Just for clarification, I have no prehistory with User:Holywarrior (Please review my contributions). My only "Ganging up" activity was issuing a WP:NPA against this user, for reasons cited above (i.e. calling another user a "3rd rate liar"). Following that, I looked in the other comments in the talk page, and voted here in a CFD for renaming, which Holywarrior opposed (My comment there was : Rename: as per Mareino hardly even a comment). Holywarrior turned his actions against me (see his last 15 edits or so) and claimed I pretended not to know anything and was bullying him . Well, as I said, my only knowledge of this affair is ANB, and I don't really care to delve into the past or present disagreements this user has with others. That seems to be what Holywarrior has against me, and for this, I had the honor of making an entry in his attack page.


 * Well, I hope he cools down, and gets back to editing. His recent edits in the last week show only reverts or attacks in different pages, and a very dubious nomination of WP:CVU for deletion. I hope a 48 hour break will change such behavior. Thanks. --Ragib 21:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Holywarrior as a vandal, nominated by Debonshire, itself need a review.Possibility of story being the reverse is not ruled out.Wmnnzzr 13:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have had no interaction with Holywarrior prior to this incident. I first encountered him when I saw his nomination for the deletion of the CVU page, claiming that it had spawed User:VandalPatrol, who I knew nothing of. I then looked at his talk page and saw that he had refered to every warning placed there by VandalPatrol as vandalism, so naturally, I assumed that he had been comitting vandalism and was angry about it having been interfered with and therefore decided to nominate the CVU page for deletion as a means of retaliation. Then after the matter, I did some investigation and found that he had a right to be angry with VandalPatrol, as that user has had a history of trolling and harrassing him and is currently blocked indefinitely, though he is now using sockpuppets. While I disagree with some of his actions, I can better understand them now. I have personally sent Holywarrior an e-mail apologising to him for having misjudged him and letting him know that I have made an effort to have VandalPatrol's harrassement put to an end. Hopefully he will decide to come back.-- Conrad Devonshire  Talk  21:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it looks like he has.-- Conrad Devonshire  Talk  16:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Holy fancruft, Batman!
Deadhead documents the term "deadhead", meaning a fan of the Grateful dead. Most of what is in this article is uncited, and some editors are arguing that Usenet is a reliable source since no other source exists. I think this article needs to be around 1/3 the current length. Maybe some others with more experience of rock culture could have a look? Just zis Guy you know? 11:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * usenet isn't a reliable source if no other sources exist. Its a neologism, and if they can't find any primary or secondary sources using the word and have to rely on usenet, I believe that qualifies it for deletion. --Crossmr 21:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course the article needs to be properly sourced but deadhead is by no means a neologism--in fact it is very well known and has been used ubiquitously for decades to describe the fans of the Grateful Dead, who are (or were) really closer to a phenomenon, than any other fans I've heard tell of--thousands of people who essentially devoted their lives to following the band around and had an almost cultish entire culture centered on the band. In high schools in the U.S. for the last three decades, for example, cliques were often described as the preppies, the metalheads, the druggies etc. and deadheads (often for those who were hippieish but not even dedicated fans of the band. I'll see if I can drum up some reliable sources. --Fuhghettaboutit 22:35, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

User has consistently engaged in personal attacks on me going so far as to vulgarly proclaim to having sex with my mother.

1. 2. 3. 4.

I took this to the Personal Attack Intervention Noticeboard and the only action taken was a warning added to the users talk page. Shown here:. You'll see that it is at least 20-30 times this user has been warned about vandalism and personal attacks.

I understand he's using AOL, but that in itself is NO excuse to allow him to continously vandalise articles and engage in vulgar personal attacks on me. I find it highly inappropriate that he's allowed to continue his vile rampage simply because he's using AOL. If any other user had said the things he's said about me (i.e. accusing me of being a pedophile, having sex with my mother) they would have been permanently banned from editing here.

I look forward to hearing/seeing a more appropriate response to his personal attacks than a simple warning on a talk page to go along with his MANY other warnings for the same thing. Batman2005 19:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * User:Wikibofh blocked for the 15 minutes which is all we can give AOL IPs. Sorry, I know he's a pain, but that's the best we can do. I will re-semiprotect the John Wayne article if he continues adding his pet (unsourced, unverified, and hostile attack) section, but of course that won't prevent talk page spam. KillerChihuahua?!? 23:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, well, obviously its wiki policy on the AOL thing, so I won't go into my personal feelings about that. It just feels as if he's getting a free pass. Batman2005 23:17, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I need help at Chinky
Before I revert for the third time, I would like to ask for somebody's help at Chinky and the associated AfD. I found a crappy article about a slur and took it to AfD. In mid-AfD another user replaced the contents wholesale with another article on an British slang term referring to Chinese takeouts. Now the AfD has been obviated, AfD participants are getting confused, and I am losing patience and yelling at people. He's been a little too BOLD for my taste. Would someone calm please come and restore order? Thank you. - CrazyRussian talk/email 19:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * My advice would be to close the AfD yourself, as a keep, since you're saying yourself that if the decision on the now-removed version was "delete", you'd replace it with the version User:Uncle G has written. It does, however, need to be made plain in the "Uncle G version" of the article that "Chinky" is widely regarded as a racial slur, even when only applied to takeaways.  --ajn (talk) 19:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It is still a racial slur - and _if_ we need an article on UK chinese takeaways then it should be at Chinese takeaway. It feels like a dic def - and the article is poor and has pov issues. Secretlondon 13:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I will close the AfD. - CrazyRussian talk/email 19:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Batman2005
I took a look at this user's userpage, as he complained about personal attacks. I was suprised to therefore see a long list of celebrities being described as "racist whore, fuckin traitor, homosexual, murdering liar", and so on. Wikipedia is not a soapbox, don't own your userpage, etc. I removed the section, but he restored it. So, question - is the abuse of real people encyclopedic? Proto /// type 06:20, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it should be reomved and protected if needed. Ian ¹³  /t  12:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Clearly, this isn't encyclopedic, but I think the user page guidelines need to be clarified. It says that longtime users are often given a great amount of latitude, but to what extent? Some users have had pages devoted strictly to showcasing images of nudity; some are okay with it and some aren't (but the user page guidelines don't really help to clarify whether it truly is okay). And it looks like the same type of situation exists here. The question of whether we should give Batman2005 this much latitude is not answered within the user page guidelines.


 * However, I would like to note several statements that implicitly attack certain types of people. From his people I wish would die in a fire, he mentions Zac Efron and Jesse McCartney simply because he's homosexual. He says that people who think Freddy Adu is sixteen are dumbasses. This kind of statement...


 * This fucking page likely contains unnecessarily vulgar or offensive statements. If it bothers you, then you should go outside and play hide and go fuck yourself.


 * ...is just downright insulting. And this...


 * Now, cry babies, don't go crying to the admins (who will likely be included) this isn't a personal attack, i don't wish you dead (most of you) this is just my way of saying..."hey, no matter what you say to me on here, you're still dead to me, so i'm not going to pay any attention to your comments.


 * ..., once again, just creates hostility. There's even an explicit death wish in there (for those who don't fit under most of you).


 * In addition, I'm quite fascinated by your question: So, question - is the abuse of real people encyclopedic? Wikipedians are real people too, aren't they? Okay, okay, I know what you're saying. But let's pretend Bill O'Reilly were to become a Wikipedian. Or perhaps Paris Bennett were to start editing Wikipedia. Then Batman's page would absolutely be making personal attacks against Wikipedians. So, the personal attacks against famous people in reality are equivalent to personal attacks against Wikipedians. We would not (I hope) allow something to say about an Wikipedia editor, no talent, ugly, annoying voice, cocky, ugly, etc, etc., or allow any editor to call someone else a fat ass windbag, so why should we allow people to do the same for celebrities who may or may not be Wikipedians? Batman's user page is far from encyclopedic and serves only to create an uncomfortable environment for people (albeit famous people). Portotype, in my opinion, you did the right thing. joturn e r 12:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

The invitation to "hide and go play fuck yourself" near the top of the page is pretty clearly a PA toward real users, not potential ones. As such, the above question (while interesting in theory) is kind of a moot point. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 14:02, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Firstly i think its ridiculous that this was listed without me being told about it, how disrespectful! Secondly, this has been brought to this very page several times in the past and several times in the past it has been established that my user page violates NO set wikipedia policy! None whatsoever!  There is not a single personal attack towards a wikipedia user on my entire page, if Paris Bennett were to become a wikipedian and object then I would remove the offending comment about her.  As is though, there is no policy violation on my page, simply put...if it offends you, then discontinue looking at it.  Batman2005 14:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * i actually see how inviting users to play "hide and go fuck yourself" could be construed as a personal attack towards wikipedia users, as such I shall remove that. Batman2005 14:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Note I have decided on my own to remove the offending part of the page, it still contains a list of people who I do not like...however it does not now implore them to die in a fire. As I added the information in the first place it was done to illustrate a point, that while wikipedians claim that wikipedia is not censored, it is in fact VERY censored.  As such, the point has been proven to my satisfaction and I have declared myself the victor, bring me the finest wine in the land. Batman2005 14:56, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * As another note, I think the swearing should be removed (infact, from any userpage where it is used). Some find it offencive (it doesn't really bother me), and although the Wikipedia isn't censored - people don't expect to find that on a userpage. Ian ¹³  /t  16:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Note, I'm going to disagree there, requiring me to remove swearing is blatant censorship, let me point out that MUCH more offensive stuff is on wikipedia...(Note: disturbing image warning)  If this garbage is allowed to stay on wikipedia but a couple curse words aren't how is that not censorship?  Batman2005 16:46, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * As I implied, a userpage is not where this would be expected. I think you need to understand that the content of the encyclopedia may not be censored - but that does not mean people can say or do what they like. Also, talk pages and userpages are not part of the encyclopedia. Please see Profanity (Including information about offensive material is part of Wikipedia's encyclopedic mission; being offensive is not.) If you are looking for somewhere where nothing is censored - then you are in the wrong place. Your usages of such possibly offencive words does not improve the content of Wikipedia. Ian ¹³  /t  17:40, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem here isn't that its offensive, the problem is that it violates no set wikipedia policy. You highlighted an article that is a guideline, but not a policy.  If certain users find my userpage offensive, as you do, then you are free to navigate away from it and spend your wikipedia time elsewhere.  There is no policy about foul language on userpages, if you believe there should be one then there are ways to go about getting that policy enacted.  But to require/request that I remove it is censorship at its finest, and that is specifically against wikipedia policy. I also grow very tired of people saying stuff like "I think you should understand " as if i'm too dense to read and understand wikipedia, or as if they're somehow more educated on the subject than I am.  I have read all the pertinent policies, which is why i'm safe in my contention that I have violated no policy.  Perhaps other users should become as familiar with said policies as I am. Batman2005 17:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia policy isn't intended to be interpretted word for word. Otherwise we would have loads of people reverting 3 times a day just because they feel they have the right too. Ian ¹³  /t  17:52, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I have been MORE than reasonable during this discussion. I chose, on my own, to remove the offending part of the userpage, which was the reason it was brought here for discussion.  I did so without needing to be convinced and did so against past consensus that my page was acceptable by all standards and violated no policy whatsoever.  I will not remove the profanity as it violates no current policy on wikipedia.  To contend that the policies herein shouldn't be interpreted word for word is both ludicrous and laughable.  If we don't take policies word for word does that mean i'm free to interpret it however I see fit?  Am i then free to levy personal attacks because i'm not interpreting that part as written?  Policies are meant to be interpreted exactly how they are written, unwritten rules do not apply here nor do they carry any weight with me.  If the editors en-masse want to get together and pass a policy specifically against profanity on userpages then I will follow that policy exactly as written.  Until that time, I will not remove profane words from my userpage, nor should any user be expected to.  If someone is offended, as I said earlier, they are free to navigate away from the page and abstain from visiting in the future. Batman2005 17:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Right. Please see Interpret all rules (yes, yes, it's not official policy - but we are a community here). Ian ¹³  /t  18:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Would you care to show me a policy i've violated? Or are you just going to continue to link to things that have nothing to do with my userpage and don't prove your position right? If you want to interpret the rules to say that my userpage is offensive fine, then don't visit it in the future...problem solved.  I however will interpret wikipedia policy to mean "policy" and guideline to mean "guideline."  Policies are things I will follow to the letter as that's the meaning of a policy.  As such, you and everyone else, has failed to show me a wikipedia policy that my userpage violates, thus...it will remain. Please do not waste more of my time by linking to things that are irrelevant, if you are able to link to solid policy about my userpage than I will entertain that position, if not I have better things I could be doing, as I'm sure you do. Batman2005 18:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It seems you havn't considered anything I have said.  Ian ¹³  /t  18:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:CIVIL I notice several references to that on your talk page. Your user page is only a continuation of that behaviour and is uncivil. --Crossmr 18:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * While I have been warned about incivility in the past, you'll notice that in no way is a userpage covered in WP:CIVIL. You no doubt have read the policy as I have, and i'm sure you saw the first sentence where it clearly says Civility is a rule for the conduct of edits, comments, and talk page discussions on all Wikipedias.  None of my edits that are deemed "inappropriate" occur on a talk page or edit summary.  Are YOU able to provide a policy that my page violates? If not I would also ask that you not waste my time with things totally unrelated to userpages. Batman2005 18:26, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Quite the contrary, I have considered it and gave it some thought, however...you fail again to produce a policy discussing the use of profanity on userpages. Like I said, if it really offends you that much you're free to propose a new policy specifically outlining userpage profanity, until such time as a policy like that is enacted, my page will remain, regardless of how one or two users feel about it.  I stand by my contention that wikipedia is not censored, and i'm both shocked and amazed that someone like you who so clearly understands wikipedia policies would fail to understand that basic concept. Batman2005 18:20, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Not at all. The policy directly addresses the issue here. You are required to be civil in ALL edits, your edits to your user page are not civil. They don't need to address profanity, because the profanity is only a part of the greater uncivil behaviour exhibited by your actions on your user page. Protection from censorship does not give you the right to be as uncivil as you like. --Crossmr 18:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You may also wish to reread the policy on censorship and pay close attention to this sentence: " some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links if they are relevant to the content (such as the article about pornography)" The exception is only set forth if the objectionable material is necessary to the article, it is not a blanket protection for user pages. Nor a protection to insert objectionable language in articles unless required by an article, for example one on profanity, or perhaps listing a famous quote from a movie/individual/etc--Crossmr 18:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you should spend less time linking to things that are irrelevant and more time trying to find a specific policy that I have violated. You cannot do so, thus my page will remain. Batman2005 18:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll also point out that the page on censorship is a guideline, not a policy. Thus it is irrelevant, guidelines are not final.  Policies are.  Once again, my page will remain. Batman2005 18:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've linked you to the policy you violated. Just becuase you choose to bury your head in the sand and ignore that fact doesn't mean no one has shown you it. WP:CIVIL is a policy, not a guideline. As is WP:NOT which discusses objectionable content. --Crossmr 18:34, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * And WP:CIVIL does not pertain to userpages, if it did it would clearly state that in the paragraph, as such it only pertains to talk pages and everything else in there. There is no policy that my page violates.  If you don't like the page, don't visit it, simple as that, problem solved, stop wasting my time saying the same wrong stuff over and over again. Batman2005 18:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It doesn't need to specify user pages becuase it specifies "Civility is a rule for the conduct of edits, comments, and talk page discussions on all Wikipedias" it doesn't say "This only applies to articles and their talk pages" or "only to articles and all talk pages" it says "edits" and the content added to your userpage was done via an "edit". WP:NOT which is a policy only extends protection to articles where the content is relevant. It doesn't say user pages can contain whatever objectionable content they want. --Crossmr 18:40, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You are wrong my friend, and I'm sorry my page offends you, but like I said, you're free to visit the million other pages. I have provided the "what can my user page not have" link and nowhere does it say profanity, WP:CIVIL is all well and good and I'll be civil in my edits, on talk pages and elsewhere, but it does not pertain to userpages, i'm sorry you don't see it that way, but I do.  My page will remain.  I would also like to point out the thousands of other user pages that have profanity on them and are not the subject of such heated debate here.  I would advise those people who are offended to surf elsewhere and discontinue visiting my page.  Batman2005 18:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You've given no evidence to show that this does not extend to userpages. I've given evidence that it extends to all edits, which were necessary to create your user page. i've also made a list of things you have to remove as per the guideline you wish to follow after stating above that you wouldn't follow any guidelines. You also need to remove anything that falls under "Opinion pieces not related to Wikipedia or other non-encyclopedic material" which covers everything I listed before but also the dead to me list and that would fall under "or other non-encyclopedic material". And you might also want to have a look at this statement: "Community policies, including Wikipedia:No personal attacks, apply to your user space just as they do elsewhere" This means WP:CIVIL applies to your user page. --Crossmr 18:52, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, my only question here is...what right do you have to tell me what to do? Are you my mother? Batman2005 18:55, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Now that you've been proven wrong, you're going to resort to that? You do not own your page, and it currently contains content in violation of more than one policy. You can choose to remove it, or procedure can be followed to remove it permanently. --Crossmr 18:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Let me also point to which clearly states what a userpage cannot have on it, and profanity is NOWHERE to be found.  AGAIN....my page will remain. Batman2005 18:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * thats a guideline, as you've pointed out, they have no bearing here. --Crossmr 18:40, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * But if you'd like to use that as some basis, things you can't have "Personal statements that could be considered polemical, such as opinions on matters unrelated to Wikipedia", which means you need to remove your reference to kevin federline being a douche, the reference to the frats, this comment "I'm not afraid to say that I want to marry Ashley Leggat and provide her with lots of children." this statement I'd do the same to Amanda Bynes, Kellie Pickler, Nikki Reed, Autumn Reeser, Sabrina Bryan, Ashley Leggat, Cote de Pablo, Scarlett Johansson, Katherine Heigl, Emilie de Ravin, Jane Krakowski, Kristin Cavalleri, Amber Tamblyn, Lacey Chabert, and Brooke Hogan (but for gods sake don't tell her dad) This list "People who are alright...if not spectacular" as it has nothing to do with wikipedia, this list as well "People who are not alright"--Crossmr 18:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You are wrong again, as the "what can i have on my user page" clearly states that I may have things that I like and dislike. The stuff about linking Kevin Federline has been discussed previously and was allowed, thus i'm inclined to leave it there.  You continue to try to find stuff to get me on and you'll continue to be proven wrong, I've been through this pointless excercise a few times now and EVERY time it has been decided that my page violates no policy.  Proto had a complaint, I removed it, end of story. Batman2005 18:52, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You can list likes and dislikes, it doesn't say you can call someone a douche on your talk page. And as I pointed out above, those guidelines you now wish to hold onto state that all community policies apply to your user page, which includes WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. "There are quite a few users who I think are losers that edit here. One is the administrator who blocked me awhile ago for basically nothing." This is a personal attack and must be removed per those policies, and the rest of your page has to be made civil as per those same policies. --Crossmr 18:56, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Very well, i will delete the bit about people I think are losers, you're right about that, it is a personal attack. You have, however, not proven me wrong my friend.  If you've proven anything its that you are vainly searching for any policy which I have violated.  And that you are incapable of forumalating an argument centered around solid policy rather than you own interpretation of guidelines and policy.  My page, minus what I just said I would delete will remain.  If you want to keep debating that's fine, but I suggest you find some solid policies as I'll continue to shoot you down like I have been doing. Batman2005 19:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You said you wish to follow what is on User_page This page clearly states "Community policies, including Wikipedia:No personal attacks, apply to your user space just as they do elsewhere. This means all policies apply to your userpage, which means WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL applies to your userpage. WP:CIVIL clearly states: "Starting a comment with: "Not to make this personal, but..." Which clearly covers your "Dead to me" section which also attacks all administrators by calling them dictators. You choose the guideline you wanted to follow, I've shown you the policy which it covers. You can choose to follow it or not. I'm going to assume good faith here and assume that now that you've been shown the proper policy and shown the offending segments of your userpage you will make a good effort to be a positive part of the commmunity. --Crossmr 19:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll remove the bit about dictators, NPA has been shown through the last time i had this conversation that it does not cover those who are not wikipedia editors, thus the stuff about Kevin Federline can stay, as was decided by consensus previously. And i think if you bothered to look past my userpage you'd see that I have been a positive member of this community for quite sometime, but alas, you only seem to focus on the bad. Dead to me is not a personal attack, it is my way of staying out of arguments with those users who insist on being disrespectful. It too will stay. Batman2005 19:14, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You can create that list without it being a personal attack. NPA doesn't apply to non-wikipedians, however WP:USER covers that statement with "Personal statements that could be considered polemical, such as opinions on matters unrelated to Wikipedia". Kevin Federline being a douche seems pretty unrelated to wikipedia. My Frat is cooler than your gay Frat is also covered by this. Reworded you could probably keep a lot of this content, but the attitude on it has to be tuned down. Instead of Dead to me, perhaps "editors I do not communicate with". You also don't need to repeat that admins are dead to you several times. Its obvious you don't like or agree with the admins in general, so simply stating that you don't see eye to eye with them would make your stance clear without resorting incivility. And while your other edits might be stellar and worthy of publication, its not a free pass to be uncivil elsewhere. --Crossmr 19:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think something you need to address here is that we are a community - and arguing over technicalities of policies does not aid the Wikipedia, and is rather disruptive. Your tone is not in my opinion following WP:AGF. If you want a freewebhost, go to geocities or something. Your "Dead to me" section, no matter what you say, seems to violate WP:NPA (a policy!) in that you are commenting on users and not content. Remember no-one owns any page (even a userpage), so your commenting of "it will stay" is invalid. Ian ¹³  /t  19:25, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

"Dead to me" would be a personal attack if it said "i wish all these users would die" it does not say that. It simply says that they are dead to me, which is completely acceptable according to consensus the last time it was brought up. I name no admins by name, thus no personal attacks there either. If arguing over policies does not aid wikipedia, why did you guys start it? A bit of the pot calling the kettle black it would seem. I am aware of what wikipedia is, if you have such a problem with my page, then like i said, you're free to create a policy specifically adressing it. Batman2005 19:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Whether you're attacking on individual, or a group of individuals, its still a personal attack. You're not attacking to them by wishing them death, you're referring to them in a disparaging manner which is a personal attack. You're devaluing them, whether by calling them names, or simply referring to them as "dead to you". It amounts to a personal attack and is not civil. There are two policies addressing it, and you've subscribed to a guideline which addresses the issues. Why create another policy you'll choose to ignore when there are 2 and a guideline already covering it? --Crossmr 20:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I personally think the current version of Batman2005's user page is acceptable - tame, even. Confessing to disliking someone isn't the same as insulting them if done tactfully, and could be useful to know in disputes. While I advise Batman2005 not to ignore users just because he dislikes them, it's pretty clear to me that this section is just a playful emulation of the Colbert Report's "Dead to Me" feature, not a hitlist, and we really have bigger fish to fry. Deco 23:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * no one said it was a hitlist. --Crossmr 23:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Nor did I intend to imply that. Deco 23:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * this section is just a playful emulation of the Colbert Report's "Dead to Me" feature, not a hitlist, then that statement was pointless if that isn't what you were implying. Just because he's emulating, or trying to emulate part of humour doesn't justify its use for attacking other users, nor does it justify uncivil behaviour. --Crossmr 01:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * For gods sake its not attacking anyone, nor is it uncivil, in fact...one or two of the users on there told me that they are honored to be listed. If they're not sensitive about it, why are you?  Would you like me to put a big giant photo of people giving high fives, or how about people laughing and shaking hands?  Is that how civil you want it?  That section of the page doesn't offend the people on it so why does it offend you? Batman2005 01:40, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Have you asked everyone in these two groups: "# Power Hungry Admins...you know who you are! OH yeah! Admins who lecture you as if you're a child, then go on and do the same thing they were lecturing you about." I doubt it. --Crossmr 01:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The fact of the matter is your userpage has a confrontational, aggressive and uncivil feel to it. You asked for which policy you violated. It was provided for you. --Crossmr 01:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Whatever, I do not believe that it is uncivil, if you think it is then just don't look at my page. Problem solved. Batman2005 02:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well - we could say that about any page. If someone dued me for making defamatory comments on my userpage - I don't think 'well just don't look at it' is a very good defence. Ian ¹³  /t  08:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Also - your linking of certain words to people's biographies (especially your 'douche' link) is defamatory, and within Wikipedia uncivil. (Wikilawyering comes to mind here). Ian ¹³  /t  08:29, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No, its not, in fact that was the topic of a very long debate one of the times it was brought here and it was clearly established that it was not defamatory. You guys can keep reaching for things to get me on, i don't know what your hard on is for getting my user page changed but its pathetic that you've spent so much time arguing over a page you likely never visited until you started commenting here.  I think my "then don't look at it" approach is the best way possible.  Perhaps you guys are incapable of understanding that this has been discussed numerous times here and i'll continue to go with consensus there (as it was MUCH more than two guys teaming up for no reason) and keep my page as is because it violates no wikipedia policy. Seriously, its about time you guys stopped wasting your time and mine with this ridiculous excercise and just admit that while you find it upsetting to look at, that it doesn't break any policies. Batman2005 13:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Like I said, it breaks two policies, and just becuase you sit there and go "no, no, no" doesn't mean that it doesn't break those policies. Why don't you link to this previous discussion you keep citing, and one thing you have to remember is that concensus can change. --Crossmr 15:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Because it was two months ago on this very page, if you think i'm lying and you're not assuming good faith in my contention about it, then you can do the work and find it, you say it breaks two policies, i say it breaks none. Why does your opinion matter more? Why is your intrepretation of the rules better than mine?  Are you implying that you're smarter than I am?  Are you the wikipedia god?  Is yours the final say in this?  I must have missed that somewhere.  No, you're not, right now there are two people saying it doesn't break those policies and two people saying it does.  Thus...no consensus this time and i'll default back to previous consensus, if you want to see it you can do the work to find it, clearly you've got nothing better to do than wage war on my user page.  Batman2005 15:49, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No. I wasn't part of the first discussion and had no idea where to find it or when it took place. You've referenced it several times, but wikipedia is a big place, you need to provide links. Now you've just assumed bad faith by saying all that. There are also three people who don't agree with your page. See Joturners comment above near the top. You still haven't linked to the previous discussion. --Crossmr 16:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps if you had bothered to read what I had written, rather than spouting off the same stuff you always do you would see that if you want to see it, if you're assuming i'm lying you can check the archives of this very page. I don't care if I assumed bad faith, you're waging your personal ethics war on my userpage.  Your opinion is that it breaks the civility policy, fine, we all know that, great, super...what do you want? I'm not changing it because it offends you, I don't feel that its a violation of policy, i don't feel as though its uncivil, its not defamatory and whoever said that it was needs to read up on defamation, as opinions can't be defamation as long as they're not presented as truth...which...my god they're not!  The other user you reference commented MUCH before I removed the offending material that prompted it to be brought here in the first place.  You've stated your opinion and for the last 6 or 8 posts you've made you've done nothing to further it so why keep posting?  If you don't have anything new to add then just be safe in the knowledge that you put your piece out there and let the process run its course.  Batman2005 16:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The process has run it course, 3 individuals feel its inappropriate and 2 do not. Which is a solid 60% concensus for its removal, but you'll ignore that too won't you? You've referenced a discussion as your defense and failed to provide a link for it, and replied with "find it yourself". Thats also a violation of WP:CIVIL. Tell me, can you prove Kevin Federline has never edited wikipedia? or that all of the people who's frat you refer to as "gay" have never edited wikipedia? This is your content that has been called into question and you have to defend it, which you haven't done other than repeating "No, no, no". Did you ask everyone in those two groups I mentioned whether or not they mind being on your page and referred to in that manner? I don't care if I assumed bad faith maybe you don't, but the community does. You don't exist in a bubble on wikipedia. --Crossmr 16:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * IF you're going to make stuff up (like your 3-2 consensus) then you should at least use people who commented on stuff that's still in the article, the user you cited hasn't commented since I removed the section he commented on! Yet you're clearly ignoring Deco who said that he thinks the current version of my page is acceptable, so lets see...tally up the votes here...mine, deco and proto, that's 3. You and Ian, that's 2.  SO you're right...a 3-2 consensus as of now, so it'll stay, I like how you reference a comment from somebody about something completely different, yet ignore a comment that's perfectly relevant because it doesn't fit your argument, then say that I'm ignoring things.  I have more than defended my position, its not my fault that you either don't understand it, can't accept it, don't want to hear it or whatever.  And telling you to find the discussion yourself is not a violation of WP:CIVIL you're the one who wants to see it so you can find it, i know what it says.  You seem to spend most of your time here trying to lecture me as if you're somehow more qualified or better than me in some way, which I find HIGHLY offensive, you're a user just like me so don't presume to think that you can lecture me about what wikipedia is or is not.  Batman2005 16:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually joturner commented on your dead to me section which is still in the article, and I'm not ignoring deco. i'm ignoring you. Its your content thats being debated, and while you can defend it you can't form concensus becuase you're biased on your own content. And actually I attempted to find it and it doesn't exist in any time frame or location that you've claimed it to, so as far as I can tell, you're inventing it unless you can provide it. I've gone back to March 1, 2006 in the Incident archive and February 5th on the noticeboard. So if any discussion like this took place here, it was never archived. --Crossmr 16:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Now you're accusing me of lying, for someone who tries to put themselves up on the wikipedia pedestal you sure break a lot of the policies you preach about. Joturner commented on the part that was deleted, if you read his comment you'll see that. Here you go, consensus from the very last time, after you accused me of lying about it beind discussed You'll notice that "The King of Kings" "Teresa Knott" "Calton" and "Petros" all supported (petros after suggesting I tone it down, which I did), while only Paul Cyr did not and one guy put a thing about free speech, there'a  4-1 consensus there that a page...which at that time was much more inflammatory was FINE. Now, i'll wait for you to apologize about calling me a liar. I'm sure you won't do that though, as you are incapable of admitting you're wrong. Batman2005 16:42, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * did you not say 2 months ago? That was only 3 1/2 weeks ago. Oh you did "Because it was two months ago on this very page" Joturner commented on the part that was deleted, if you read his comment you'll see that and he also commented on the dead to me section, go back and read it. That entire long comment is his. He's commented on both content that was removed and content that is still there. Calton didn't support you on that. He said the content may or may not be appropriate. Petros also suggested you tone it down, so while he didn't believe you violated a policy, he also didn't feel your content was appropriate either. so that drops it down to 2 support, 2 opposed and a neutral. and Sean Black clearly disagreed with what you had on your page, so thats actually a 2 support to 3 opposed and 1 neutral tally. You had no concensus previously. adding the new count, it is now 4 support, 6 opposed 1 neutral and again a concensus for removal. --Crossmr 16:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Did you not say you went back to March 1st and couldn't find it? Seems like you still called me a liar.  You're clearly changing things around to fit what you want it to say, I will not change my page just because you are tallying the votes up so that no matter what they fit your pov.  You are, like I said, engaging in your personal ethics war on this page and I think its ridiculous. I imagine you're familiar with "wikipedia is not a democracy" your simple voting method that you seem to think should be used (even though you're interpreting the votes to fit whatever you want them to say).  You were proven wrong, there was a consensus the last time, you STILL cannot accept that, which is both hilarious and ridiculous. I don't, for the life of me understand, how you can say that sean black "clearly disagreed with what i had on my page" when he simply said "Incorrect. There is no right to free speech on Wikipedia. If you wish to publish material espousing your political/social/economic/sexual/religous viewpoints, go elsewhere.-Sean Black"  There's nothing on my page about my views on any of those things.  Once again you change things around to fit your pov.  I think that throughout this entire process you have been both insulting and incivil, as such unless you have anything positive to offer to this discussion (which you have shown you do not) then I suggest you go edit elsewhere and stop trying to push your ethics and values on others.  There is no consensus to delete as you falsely claim, i'm sorry you can't understand that. Batman2005 17:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thats right, because obviously I skipped a couple of archives. Why would I search last weeks archive? or the last 4 weeks of archives, when you told me it was 2 months ago? I assumed good faith and that you would not mislead me on the time frame. I dropped in about a month ago on both archives and started going back. There was a concensus last time, it was for the removal of the material. You only changed it around to fit what you wanted to believe. Sean Black stated that that material wasn't appropriate on wikipedia and if you wanted to write those things you should take it elsewhere. You're writing those things, so they're not appropriate here. Kevin Federline being a douche is a social viewpoint. That frat being gay, is a social viewpoint. Who you want to have sex with, is a sexual viewpoint. There is a concensus to clean up the material. You choosing to ignore that, doesn't make it any less true. Your talk page speaks to your uncivil behaviour, your behaviour in this discussion also speaks to that. Your userpage is an extension of that behaviour. Telling people to go locate the evidence to support your point of view because you don't want to is uncivil. Assuming bad faith is uncivil, which you've done and indicated you don't care about. You've also broken WP:OWN by claiming that the page will not change. The concensus is there, the policies and guideline broken have been clearly spelled out for you. In spite of all your uncivil behaviour I'm going to assume good faith and leave you to clean it up appropriately. Good luck with it. --Crossmr 17:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm through with this discussion with you as you are completely close minded, i will not change my user page and if you do it will be reverted, there is no consensus here, there was previously, you just refuse to believe it, just as you refuse to admit to implying that I'm a liar. You are NOT the wikipedia final authority as much as you would apparently like to be.  You and Ian do not constitute a consensus, I'm sorry you can't understand that.  You're right, I don't care about assuming bad faith with you as you've repeatedly done so with me, you called me a liar, you proceeded to lecture me on wikipedia policy as if you were the one who wrote it.  You are not a better person regardless of how much you continuously try to place yourself as one.  You've spent this entire conversation lecturing as if you're a parent disciplining a small child.  You are uncivil and your proposal to censor my userpage based on your own interpretation of the rule is more damaging to wikipedia than anything I have ever done here.  I have been supported in this in the past, yet once again you ignore that.  Like I said, i suggest you go and edit elsewhere if you don't like my page, wikipedia is not run by you and you do not constitute the final say, this is an ongoing discussion and will continue to be so, as is, there is no consensus, a consensus is not simply a majority vote (were that the case my page would still remain as i have the consensus...its ok though, i know you'll disagree and change things around to fit your pov again).  Batman2005 17:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * you called me a liar where did I call you a liar? I simply pointed out that with the information you gave me I could not find the discussion and from where I sat there was no evidence the discussion had taken place. I gave you ample opportunity to provide a link to the discussion, instead you gave me false information about its location and told me to go find it myself. That is the very definition of uncivil behaviour. I was simply debating a point. If you view that as lecturing, you're free to read other conversations. No one is forcing you to read this one or continue to participate in it. You've made your position clear that you feel your page doesn't violate those policies. --Crossmr 18:33, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Guys please! Batman, I don't think he was calling you a liar. Crossmr, is it possible that he miscalculated the length of time between discussions, obviously one took place before..it doesn't seem to me that Batman was trying to mislead you. I think you have both made your positions clear, just wait and see.  I think a cooling off period for both might be in order. FordTuffinIt 18:50, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * agreed. --Crossmr 18:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm rather new to this encyclopedia thing. I looked at the page in question after seeing some of his posts on the national soccer team page for the usa, and I personally disagree with some of the people he doesn't like and that kind of stuff, but i don't see any reason that it should be deleted. FordTuffinIt 18:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Note please also see for more support of my position in this pointless debate. Batman2005 15:53, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Consensus on redirect and delete
Several admins have been deleting and/or changing the original research redirect so it no longer redirects to No original research and instead redirects to an article such as research. The reason User:Cyde wishes to change the article is b/c Wikipedia should "NEVER allow a cross-namespace redirect to squat on what could be a legitimate encyclopedic page." I personally disagree with this b/c the redirect has been around for more than two years and is linked to by well over 1000 talk pages. In addition, there is no obvious article that the redirect is squatting on. That said, I am willing to go with whatever the consensus decides to do.

I tried to start a discussion about this at Talk:Original research but another admin has also deleted the article. I've reverted it yet again but have no wish to start a wheel-war over this. Since a bunch of admins are involved in this, can we get other admin opinions. Personally, I don't see any reason why this redirect should be deleted without a AfD since there is no speedy delete reason to justify this action.--Alabamaboy 13:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Please read WP:ASR. We are writing an encyclopedia, not perpetuating Wikipedia. --Cyde 13:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Kill it with a stick. "Original research" is hardly a Wikipedia-specific term. freakofnurture 13:56 30 June, 2006 (UTC)

Changing it to an appropriate redirect doesn't require an AFD or speedy deletion. I personally agree that cross namespace redirects should be kept to a n absolute minimum and certainly not exist for a term which has a strong context outside of wikipedia like Original research does. Length of time of existance I can't see as relevant, we wouldn't allow OR itself to remain in an article just because it's been there a long time etc. etc. --Pgk 13:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No, changing to an appropriate redirect doesn't require an AfD. But admins keep deleting the redirect (see ) am I wrong in believing this is no justified reason for deleting the redirect without an AfD? As for changing the redirect to another redirect or an article, consensus should be gained before doing that.--Alabamaboy 14:00, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You are wrong in believing that there is no justified reason for deleting the redirect ... please read WP:ASR. And you sure as hell don't need AFDs for redirects!  --Cyde 14:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I restored the deleted revisions. It's a redirect now, there's no harm in having cross-namespace-redirects in the history of an article. And someone should run a bot that changes all these links to the appropriate page now. --Conti|&#9993; 14:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm quite familiar with WP:ASR. The problem is that there will now be over 1000 talk pages linking to a wrong place. If you go to Neutral point of view or NPOV, the page is a disamibiguation page which includes a link to Neutral_point_of_view. Perhaps we could do that. That's why I proposed seeking consensus on this issue so we can find a solution everyone could live with instead of having 1000 plus pages linking to the wrong place.--Alabamaboy 14:09, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

If consensus develops to change the redirect, then that bot would definately be needed. Excellent idea.--Alabamaboy 14:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd still be interested in hearing from other admins on if it was right for three admins to delete this redirect (see ) without an AfD. Under Criteria_for_speedy_deletion, this does not appear to have been a valid reason for deletion.--Alabamaboy 14:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * No, it wasn't. But why do people keep lumping my edit of the page in with them, as you did above? -- SCZenz 14:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see any reason at all for deletion here, simply changing the redirect would do the thing. --Conti|&#9993; 14:24, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Apologies for doing that, SCZenz. I was only trying to refer to the admins who deleted the article. Best,--Alabamaboy 14:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

The approach taken by a small set of admins in dealing with cross-namespace redirects appears to be as follows: Now will one of the editors in question (Cyde would be a good candidate) tell me why this is the optimal way to approach this situation? -Splash - tk 14:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Delete them and hope no admin notices enough to restore it;
 * 2) If anyone notices, delete it again;
 * 3) Tell the restoring admin how stupid they are, with the additional use of profanity to help make things clear;
 * 4) If they still notice, change its target;
 * 5) If someone changes you back, change it again;
 * 6) Tell the editor how stupid they are, with the additional use of profanity to help make things clear;
 * 7) Regularly cite a policy which doesn't exist (ASR is only a style guideline) in support of your various actions;
 * 8) Iterate until RfC.


 * This appears (partly) to be a problem looking for a solution: What shall my bot do now? There also appear to have some difficulty understanding the difference between policy and guideline.  Some things which should be Wikipedia 101: A) Don't do controversial changes en mass. B) Don't insult people who complain. C) Engage in productive dialog that supports your edits.  Is that so hard?  --brenneman 14:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I suggest to wait until things get calmer again, then use the bot to pipe the links to Be bold in updating pages. And might I suggest: D) Don't do whatever the heck you want because you're convinced that you're right. --Conti|&#9993; 14:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * LOL, nice attempt at slandering my motivations, but if you actually look at my actions you'll see that I've been trying to push the redirect fixes off on other people because I don't want to deal with the hassle. Ditto for everyone else, actually (I think Gurch eventually got roped into doing some).  But let me just go on record saying that your accusation of the reason for this is totally false.  --Cyde 18:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't really see what the problem is here. If No original research exists, there's no reason for No original research. Just fix all the internal redirects and delete the redundant main-namespace redirect. We have multiple namespaces so we don't need to clutter our encyclopedia with non-article material. --Tony Sidaway 18:46, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

what Tony said, and use a bot. But be more laid back about these things, please! It doesn't need to be fixed by tomorrow, and there is no need to wheel-war about it! For the time being, you can softredirect it, perhaps making it a dab page. There is no need for an original research article or redirect (nothing should link there), because the term is tautological (all research is 'original' at the time it is done, otherwise it wouldn't be research but citation, although it may of course transpire later that the same result had been found before). dab (&#5839;) 21:24, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I strongly favour Dbachmann's approach. We should avoid redirecting common English phrases that aren't Wikipedia specific to project space, and the links to it need to be fixed, preferably in an automated manner. Meanwhile, create original research, and put links to research and WP:NOR on it. Is it self-reference? Sure, but it's temporary. Don't panic. Deco 23:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * To Tony, (&#5839;), and Deco: The problem was that several admins were deleting the redirect without following speedy delete criteria or going through an RfD and were also ignoring attempts to discuss the matter. Personally, I don't have an issue with deleting the redirects. What I have an issue with are admins who ignore calls for consensus, initiate personal attacks when someone asks why they are doing something, and also don't follow the guidelines for deleting redirects. As admins we are supposed to follow Wikipedia guidelines and policies, not do as we wish merely b/c it is too troublesome to bother with said guidelines and policies. Best,--Alabamaboy 13:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * As one of the older folks, I must say Splash's characterization seems most accurate. We've had these things for ages, but suddenly they must all go, go overnight, and anyone who disagrees is screamed at.  That's not good practice.  It's not how we "make an encyclopedia," either.  It's how we pitch a fit.  No one likes to have a fit pitched at him unless he has a bat in his hand.  Now, cut it the heck out.  Get your guideline made policy by consensus, after plenty of discussion, then get a solution in place other than "Whoopsie, it went away," and then unleash your bots.  Otherwise, it's that moronic "I have 85,000,000 edits to pages I have never read" impulse that's making writing anything impossible.  (Try linking to a month somewhere because you want people to read up on the month.  I'll bet it'll be unlinked within a week by some helpful bot.)  Geogre 17:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

subst:
When going though 'Review and restore deleted pages', if I preview a page with an afd notice in (even if it has been subst'ed) it shows an error saying it needs to be subst:'ed (  ) and I can not see any of the following page content. Any ideas why? (To replicate please go here and click preview.) Ian ¹³  /t  17:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't even get that! My toolbar is all over the page, and a big blank space, and the article's text does not appear :S Iola k ana |T  19:59, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Text is added to certain templates wishes causes it to replace the template with the "must be subst" template. This is added to certain templates to get people to subst them. Voice -of- All  21:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the point is that this very much breaks the Special:Undelete view of things. Probably the conditionals code controlling this needs to be fixed or taken out. -Splash - tk 22:55, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I've noticed that. Quite annoying, since you can't see any of the article text and can't fix it. Why is it doing that? The template IS substed. --Lord Deskana Dark Lord of YOUR OPINIONS 22:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I have filed a BugZilla bug (#6505). Ian ¹³ /t  14:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Mu'tazili/Mihna and User 171.64.90.X
This user has added vast amounts of unformatted material to Mihna and Mu'tazili. I didn't know what to remove and it wasn't sourced... so, I figured this might expose it to more people who may know better what to do. gren グレン 21:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * You can dicuss this and present the facts and diffs on the discussion page of the article. Alternatively, you can also notify other active users interested in editing the article. --Nearly Headless Nick 09:42, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It looks like he's adding sources now. - Merzbow 18:21, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Ban IP 68.46.191.11
This IP needs to be banned. He was warned twice before and recently went on a vandalism spree, including Talk:Manhattanville College and Clark University, and my own talk page, Talk:Thomas.macmillan. All of his edits were reverted. He has been vandalizing pages related to me, particularly on the Manhattanville College page. He is someone I know and he is harassing me. --Thomas.macmillan 00:48, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Judging by his contributions, the vandal seems to have let up. If he starts again, he'll be blocked. --Mr. L e fty Talk to me! 04:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Just a little correction. it's IP not ISP. :) --Woohookitty(meow) 04:37, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Leaving such messages on WP:AIV would rather be more effective and helpful. Regards, --Nearly Headless Nick 09:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate username
Is Gdsrtangl13 an inappropriate username? I'm guessing that the "13" is leet for "le" and that combined with "srtangl" it is meant to be "strangle", so the meaning could be something like "god strangle", "good strangle" or the strangling of someone named Gd. -- Kjkolb 10:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course it could also belong to GoodSortOfAngel&mdash;a 13-year-old girl from the Midwest who likes to use the internet but got tired of typing out a really long username. Meh.  My two cents is that it takes a pretty tortured reading of the username to get to something even borderline offensive. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Ha ha, brilliant! Thanks, TacoDeposit 16:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that it would be stretching it a bit to imply that the username in question was inappropriate. FordTuffinIt 18:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll bring the torches if you get the pitchforks. Sheesh. --Golbez 21:27, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I was suggesting that she be burned alive. ;-) -- Kjkolb 22:37, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Infinity0
This case has closed.


 * is placed on standard revert parole for one year. He may not perform more than one content revert per page per day and every content revert must be accompanied by discussion on the relevant talk page.
 * is banned from editing Wikipedia for one year for continued violation of his previous ruling, by incivility and edit warring,

For the Arbitration Committee. --Tony Sidaway 11:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Election
This case has closed.


 * Article probation: The articles which are the locus of dispute, Requests for arbitration/Election/Proposed decision, are placed on probation. Any editor may be banned from any or all of the articles, or other reasonably related pages, by an administrator for disruptive edits, including, but not limited to, edit warring, incivilty, and original research. The Arbitration Committee reserves the right to appoint one or more mentors at any time, and will review the situation in one year.
 * The editors involved in this Arbitration proceeding may continue to edit the articles using the wiki process.

For the Arbitration Committee. --Tony Sidaway 13:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Wikimanagement
I have blocked this user partly because of the username but also because they were making contentious edits to Australian articles. The edits are similar to others made over the last few days that have been reverted several times. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 14:25, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

User Rjensen is edit warring at American Civil War
He's been pretty good this last week or so, but JimWae and he got into it over necessary citations. I tried to make neutral statements, and other editors are trying to help, but User Rjensen has multiple (2 by my count) 3RR violations on this page in last 24 hours. see ACW talk. BusterD 16:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I could be wrong, but i think I saw a page the other day where you could report 3RR violations, i'm kind of new so i'm not 100% sure. FordTuffinIt 18:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The page is here. - Merzbow 18:09, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Have posted request on appropriate page. Original request was intended to convey a general tendency, and merely not report this specific incident. Thanks for standing up for policy. Double posting not intended, if I should delete this notice, please revert. BusterD 19:32, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

AFD closure for review
My closure of Articles for deletion/Economic System of Islam (book) as "keep" has been called into question, especially for my closing comment that "AFD is not a substitute for cleanup". I have offered to have the closure reviewed here for maximum transparency. (ESkog)(Talk) 16:42, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * As the nominator and the person who prompted this review which was offered without my asking, I simply want to state that I support the decision, though happen to disagree with it. I think this was a difficult AfD, and wikipedia will be stronger for a further pair of eyes.  There is no criticism of ESkog in my asking for clarification of the term used, as you may see from our discussion on User talk:ESkog. -- Fiddle Faddle 16:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Delete my account?
I'll be leaving Wikipedia permanently, and would like my account deleted. Is that possible? RJII 19:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * We can't delete the account, but we can delete your userspace. Jkelly 19:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * We would also never delete an account based on a request posted by someone who is forging another user's signature. User:Zoe|(talk) 20:38, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense Article
A nonsense article was created at Jimmy Tolland, seems like a teen wanting a biography of himself. I've blanked the page for now, and I'm hoping an administrator can delete it. Thanks. PerfectStorm 00:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * PerfectStorm when a page like this appears tag it with db-nonsense. I've tagged it with that. An admin will delete it faster because she or he will notice the page in the category. ForestH2 00:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Since a relatively coherent article that neither asserts the notability of its biographical subject nor appears to be about a notable individual isn't really nonsense, db-bio is likely more appropriate; speedy deletion will likely occur in any case, but the distinction between nonsense and no assertion of notability is sometimes of import. Joe 05:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Joe's appraisal of the situation is accurate. Speedy deleting for the wrong reason confuses new users and gives them grounds to raise it for undeletion - don't do it. Deco 01:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

AutoWikiBrowser requests are piling up...
There are at least 5 days' worth of sign-ups on there, 19 users who have requested to be approved for use of this special editor. This requires the attention of an admin. Here's the link: Wikipedia talk:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage --Transhumanist 19:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Need for Speedy Keep (update- Speedy Kept)
Would an admin kindly Speedy Keep this overwhelmingly snowballed Template:Fact TfD so that the template can be returned to it's normal appearance? Thanks. Netscott 22:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This has been speedy kept after the TfD nominator withdrew his nomination. Cheers. Netscott 22:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Images appearing in Category:Orphaned articles
Can someone get around to speedying some of the dozen images in Category:Orphaned articles that are both orphaned and unencyclopedic? We don't need cheap porn filling up wikimedia's servers.--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 22:07, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I just deleted all of the copyvios there. The freely-licensed ones should be moved to Wikimedia Commons or taken to WP:IFD if they are absolutely useless.  Jkelly 01:59, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'll get around to listing them on ifd.--The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 16:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Page Size
''This page is 284 kilobytes long. This may be longer...'' Isn't Crypticbot supposed to keep it below 256 kb!? Fr e ddie Message? 23:29, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, unless something is wrong, crypticbot does so everyday at 00:00 UTC. :-) Netscott 23:32, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll wait 15 mins. Fr e ddie Message? 23:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You'll have to wait another full day; a quick look at Special:Contributions/Crypticbot shows the bot stopped working half a day ago. I'll leave a message to User:Cryptic about it. --cesarb 00:05, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Edit/conflict - Just what I was about to say: Maybe you'll have to wait slightly longer judging by history. ;-) Netscott 00:07, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Cryptic hasn't edited since March 20 and therefore has not responded to comments since then about his bot or anything else. Does he monitor the bot at all? Not just while it is running, I mean at all. Does he just leave his computer on or is the bot set up somewhere else? If he is willing, perhaps someone else should take over operation of the bot. -- Kjkolb 09:57, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I have a dedicated machine availiable if needed for a backup. --mboverload @ 10:28, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Cyptic appears to have left the project. I have no idea if anyone has a copy of the bot or where it runs from. Secretlondon 11:10, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Crypticbot is still running, apparently entirely on its own since Cryptic left, unsupervised, for five weeks now. It hasn't malfunctioned, but shouldn't it be blocked for being completely unsupervised?  --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - &lt;*&gt; 11:16, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've just blocked indefinitely - but I won't revert if anyone wants to unblock. I think we should check to see if all our active bots have active owners. Secretlondon 11:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Curiously I've just tried to remove its bot status and it didn't have it set.. Secretlondon 12:13, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Tut tut! Iola k ana |T  15:07, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It would be very nice to get a new operator or a replacement bot, since manually archiving frequently used pages every day by the date of the last post in a discussion is rather tedious. Maybe the bot should be unblocked for at least a few days so that we can explore our options. The pages that it archives will fill up pretty fast. Finding orphaned AfD nominations with it was very helpful as well, but it looks like it hasn't been doing that for a while. I don't know how orphaned nominations are identified now, or if it is done on a systematic basis at all, so restarting that might be good, too. Whoever decides to try to make contact should probably trying emailing him, since he doesn't seem to be checking his talk page. I'd go for it, but I don't understand all of the technical aspects of bots. -- Kjkolb 19:27, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I messaged User:Werdna648 who owns User:Werdnabot about potentially archiving these pages. Hopefully we'll get a response soon. Netscott 19:32, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Cryptic appears to have jsut reemerged to reply to a "bot broken" message on his talk page. I messaged him to reply if he was going to "stay with the project" at least in capacity as a bot operator; and if so I would remove the block on the bot account. Waiting for a reply... —  xaosflux  Talk  00:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And Essjay has offered to run it on the toolserver if someone helps him with perl knowledge (see Cryptic's talk). --cesarb 18:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Protected deleted articles
Is there any sort of consensus about how long an article needs to stay protected against recreation? I'm looking at SALT and WP:PDP, seeing article titles that have been protected for many months. At what point should the protection be lifted and the tag removed? I don't think most re-creation vandals have multi-month attention spans. Joyous! | Talk 00:17, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Post to WP:RFPP and put it under Requests for unprotection. An article is usally only kept semi-protected or full protected for a few days. There are some ones that are protected indefinte or longer. --ForestH2 | + | √+ | √ | √- | - 00:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * "indefinte or longer" - you can get longer than indefinate?! Thats like Infinity plus 1! :P Ian ¹³  /t  14:21, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Need copyright help
Image:Rudy Giuliani face.jpg is marked with a federal PD tag but plainly appears to come from a Washington State government source (per Commons). This is especially important, since this is a very popular image, part of a popular userbox. Can anyone deal with the situation please? - CrazyRussian talk/email 07:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Currently it looks fine as they've found a cc-by image to replace it with. Secretlondon 11:04, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Commons:Commons:Village pump or Commons:Commons:Help desk is over that way. =P Kotepho 20:40, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah. silly me - CrazyRussian talk/email 17:02, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Nguyen Thi Hong Vaan

 * User:Gidonb keeps vandalising this page. --Haham hanuka 16:23, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Excuse me? I never vandalized any article or page in the entire Wikipedia. If you disagree with the speedy you should have inserted the "hangon" tag or spoken with an administrator. One is not allowed to simply remove speedies one disagrees with. Calling me a vandal with my name in the edit summaries, while vandalizing the speedy tag, is very insulting and violates civility.  The rules for removing the speedy tag are in the box.  gidonb 16:57, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 2 cents: Gidonb: Don't do this. The correct way is to fix the nomination then vote for a speedy delete.
 * Haham hanuka: learn how to list AFD pages. See WP:AFD and follow the instructions. As much as we appreciate the help, you need to do it correctly. Sasquatch t|c 23:49, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sasquatch, again I have no problem with the nomination. My only problem is with the continuous disrespect for our procedures. I clean up after him all the time. Haham hanuka has been told hundreds of times not just to drop AfD templates, cleanup templates, expand templates, POV templates and other templates. All these require some work, something he seems not to be interested in. He just continues to attack all those around him, vandalizing, lazy-dropping templates, falsely quoting consensuses, pushing POV, recreating deleted articles in AfDs, as if nobody is talking to him and nobody is out there. The Wikipedia in his mother tongue has banned him forever, I think it is time to consider the same. gidonb 00:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Created within the last 15 minutes or so; awfully close to User:-Ril- but, rather than block immediately, I thought I'd get some opinions first. RadioKirk (u|t|c) </tt> 06:29, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Good catch. It is unlikely that the two are the same, or that good ole Cheesedreams will repeat herself, but I blocked the account and left a note to be safe.  --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - &lt;*&gt; 07:41, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I agree with the unlikelihood now that the user has had contribs; I'd go so far as to say it's almost undoubtedly not the same person. Still, that user will want another name ;) <tt style="color:#161;">RadioKirk (u|t|c) </tt> 08:21, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

JzG the edit warrior
I am involved in a content dispute at Association of British Drivers. This group campaigns actively against "inappropriate" (in the eyes of the speeders) enforcement of speed limits, asserts that car ownership should be more affordable, and claims that fuel taxation is too high.

In the section on criticisms of ABD we have the following facts, cited from reliable sources:


 * Taxation per car in the UK is around the European average, similar to France and Italy, higher than Germany, much lower than the Netherlands or Ireland . Comparing individual elements of motoring taxation, such as fuel duty, between countries is of questionable relevance, as different countries strike different balances between fuel duty, vehicle excise duty and road tolls.
 * The overall cost of motoring in Britain in 2003 was below the 1980 level in real terms, although the real cost of fuel was 7% higher, and bus and coach fares rose by 34% and rail fares by 36% in real terms over the same period . According to the RAC Foundation the major cost of motoring is the capital and depreciation costs of the vehicle, with fuel costs and excise duty being around one third of the cost of running a small car.
 * ABD claim they are opposed to inappropriate automated speed limit enforcement, but this is widely seen as opposition to all automated speed limit enforcement, or even that they actually oppose speed limits. There is robust evidence that reducing speeds reduces both the incidence and the severity of collisions.

User:DeFacto is generally a decent chap, but insists on removing these as he asserts the link between these criticisms and the stated policy of ABD is WP:OR. I disagree, and the comments have been in there a while.

I am bringing this here because I am personally involved, I don't want to block anyone or lock an article when I am involved in the content itself, and because I might be wrong (obviously I don't think so, but then I would say that). Just zis <span style="border: 1px; border-style:solid; padding:0px 2px 2px 2px; color:white; background-color:darkblue; font-weight:bold">Guy you know? 15:06, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Transcluding individual WP:DRV debates
WP:DRV has a gargantuan history, and is unwatchable if you're only following one discussion. We ought to start transcluding individual debates, quite like AfD. Has this been proposed before? It makes eminent sense. I would like to start a discussion - perhaps here - or at a better place if one is available. - CrazyRussian talk/email 16:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Iola <b style="color:#50C878;">k</b> ana |<sup style="color:orange;">T  16:30, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * This has ben discussed many times on WT:DRV (you know, where you would expect the discussion? there is even current discussion of it!) and per-debate subpages are not well liked by some. Currently, debates are on one page per day.  There is little reason to change that. Kotepho 19:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * (copied from WT:DRV) Well, the daily logs are already being transcluded. I don't think there are enough entries to warrant having a subpage for each and every review. --Deathphoenix ʕ 04:22, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Travb
I'd like to make an exception to him not commenting on fair use images on Fair use criteria/Amendment/Consensus. I think we need to use some common sense here, obviously it's not fair that he can't state his opposition on that page, even if that might be in the strongest possible terms! I don't agree with the stance he takes, incidently, but I have promised him that if he adds his comments to the page and someone blocks him then I will reverse the decision, with the caveat that no personal attacks are allowed. If I'm not on the site and someone blocks him for commenting, please leave a polite note on the admins page and then reverse the decision. Let's be fair here, and not silence debate! - Ta bu shi da yu 15:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd support Travb being allowed to state his opinion and why he opposes the proposal. --Alabamaboy 17:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

"Bed-wetting liberal" not deleted properly
This was an attack page that was repeatedly recreated and was a candidate for speedy deletion when it was tagged with deletedpage without deleting the history. The page was then protected but the content of the original page is still in the history:. I hereby ask that someone remove the aforementioned edits from the history so that they are only accessible by administrators (or not at all). 69.117.4.237 18:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Having trouble remembering what is and isn't criteria for speedy deletion?
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WikipediaRules are a series of fully printable guides to rules we have. I currently have 3 easy to read pages ready to print and keep as a reference on your desk. They include the code (A7 and such), a quick name, more description, AND the tag to use to delete them!

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User:Mboverload/wikipediarules --mboverload @ 19:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * (In Microsoft Word format. —Keenan Pepper 20:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC))
 * Open Office. Would you like me to convert them to PDF? --mboverload @  20:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Converting to PDF would be a good idea, because of the fonts; not everyone might have the same fonts you used, while they would be embedded on the PDF. --cesarb 20:44, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It uses Verdana and Times New Roman, which all computers should have. I tried to install CutePDF Writer but I'm having problems right now.  Sorry =( --mboverload @  20:49, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Converted it to PDF without problem with Open Office. I suggest you to install PDFCreator, which installs a virtual printer. Then open your document, print it, and select the virtual PDF writer as printer. That would generate the PDF version. -- ReyBrujo 21:04, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * (By the way, is this the right place to announce this? :)) -- ReyBrujo 21:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the Village Pump, but Noticeboard is only for geographic-realted notices; so... my guess is as good as your guess. Iola <b style="color:#50C878;">k</b> ana |<sup style="color:orange;">T  21:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * All computers should have as long as they use either Windows or the core fonts for the web ☺. --cesarb 21:23, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Why not make a wiki page and print that? As for announcing, it could go in Wikipedia Signpost —Quarl (talk) 2006-07-04 08:32Z