Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive181

User:LetsgoPhillies
This user admits to being a sock puppet for evading a ban here, and the user's talk page states it's a revenge account for the purpose of vandalizing. -- Kesh 16:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Blocked. Guy (Help!) 16:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * He's been blocked. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 16:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * This is listed in "Highways problem". V60 VTalk - VDemolitions 04:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism by User 71.70.92.135 on Waccamaw Page
I'm a Waccamaw Indian tribal council member and viewed the current page on Waccamaw. There were three incidents of vandalism on November 15, 2006 for the page showing the same user at 71.70.92.135 IP address. I will try to undo edit to correct, but I'm not terribly familiar with Wikipedia editing. Also, is there anyway of finding out the source? If this is possible, please email to  . Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.153.139.40 (talk • contribs).


 * The IP you mentioned resolves to Road Runner Holdco LLC. Crimsone 04:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Sasfatpogobsqalt
is constantly removing the speedy tag from the article he/she created, Edy Syquer. He/she has been warned to stop and refuses to. Heimstern Läufer 05:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * This sound like a job for WP:AIV. To the Wikicave! JuJube 05:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No worries now, the article's been deleted. Heimstern Läufer 05:51, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Are comments on this IP's talkpage considered worrying to the community? Personally, I don't care about the farcical accusations that the IP is leveling at me, but I do wish an outside person to give some perspective on the matter, as I don't seem to have a clear head on the matter anymore. Constructive criticism welcome. --210 physicq  ( c ) 00:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The constant references to the "Dear Reader" of the talk page is very Victorian, and very trolling; it's a recognized invitation of the audience to draw conclusions prefaced by the author. I say leave it alone and walk away.  Teke ( talk ) 01:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I say just semi the talk page and leave content on it; he can't complain he was "censored", but he can't keep trolling. Patstuarttalk 07:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Mr.Kannambadi and his elitism
Mr.Kannambadi (with his loyal friends) is removing the cited info at chalukya and rashtrakuta with other articles. he wants to push the POV of historians of his region and deleting my Marathi language and even English language citations. He is framing his own rules and bullying me by inventing new rules that google books and regional language books cannot be used in wikipedia. he has two books which I have quoted yet he is removing the info from those books as well also from the reputed source of Britannica encyclopeduia. I have given details of my citations.He told me he has located the book and he is still reverting. He is harassing me by asking ID no. but the book which i have (and he had claimed he has located them) are of 1924 AD which obviously dont have Id noes. Please help.Sarvabhaum 06:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

thejps being abusive to me
Hi, i hope you can help me. Im having a big problem with an administratorcalled thejps. When i joined i didnt know what i was doing and broke a few rules. I wasnt abusive but went about changing articles the wrong way. I was banned for 2 weeks which i completely agreed tp. Since i have come back i have followed all the rules, discused everything, have not edited 1 article and been overly polite to everyone. Wherever i start adiscussion on the discussion page thejps keeps following me and telling everyone to ignore me,that my POV is wrong and calling me a trol! All i want to know is how do i report him and warn him off. I enjoy reading articles and have only started a few discussions, yet i feel i am being taunted to react so he can ban me again. He has really taken it peronnaly, how do i stop him? Iwould appreciate any advice, thanks a lot. My email is hidden cheers Daveegan06 10:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Removed your email, it can still be seen by bots. We can use the email this user link from your userpage if you have an email set for wikipedia. Viridae Talk 11:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, when you want to indent like I have here, use a : at the start of the sentence, spaces just put the text into an endless box. The more of them you use, the more indented it is.
 * Like.
 * This. Viridae Talk 11:44, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Onto the actual issue. I saw the talk page comments you made/The JPS made that tipped you to making this report, and have to agree that The JPS was being a little over the top in his critiscism, I believe you being perfectly civil and not trolling at all, I would like to hear from The JPS as to why he took it that way. Viridae Talk 11:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The JPS has been notified about this thread on his talk page. Viridae Talk 13:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I apologise for what could be interpreted as being over the top. I will continue to monitor the user in a less vocal way. My concerns about the editor are based on the fact that most of his edits are ideologically motivated. The JPS talk to me  12:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Spammer account - created on behalf of a website
has consistently added links to the MadGamers website in many computer/video game related articles. See Half-Life 2, CS: S, Half-Life, CS: S again, RTS, CVG. The same message, with links, posted to the articles. —Vanderdecken∴ ∫ξφ 11:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Even more Primetime
Yes, it's tiresome. Looks like hasn't given up: his newest sockpuppet,, like a previous one, has once again nominated Panaca, Nevada (an actual town) for deletion. He also moved the previous nomination here, so someone will have to fix that by reverting the move, too.

(Officially, the previous Panaca troll was, whom I now assume was a Primetime sockpuppet, but even if he wasn't it's still abusive sockpuppetry, just by a different puppeteer.) --Calton | Talk 11:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and restored the last version of the original nomination by Calton and moved the new nom to Articles for deletion/Panaca, Nevada (2nd nomination). Obviously, should be dealt with as seen fit? -Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 11:47, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Bosniak - POV pushing, WP:POINT, and bad faith assumptions
An editor called my attention to an ongoing dispute at Srebrenica massacre. I've done some poking around, and I'm greatly troubled by what I see:
 * reverts any attempts to introduce neutral point of view terminology (for example, an editor changed the subheading "Denial of the massacre, revisionism and scepticism" to "Critical views" to make it less POV-laden).
 * he repeatedly introduces information in blatant violation of WP:BLP ("...accused of raping Bosniak women...") and has been adding this information despite warnings since August ("...accussed of participating in Serb-run rape camps..."). This information has no reliable sources and has in fact been widely discredited.
 * Bosniak accuses editors of "vandalism" when they make any changes contrary to his POV, using edit summaries like "rv to Psychonaut - Jim Douglas, this is not your personal web page to vandalize. Your vandalism will not succeed." and "rv to Psychonaut -- Jim Douglas, read discussion page before attempting to vandalize article". It should be noted that the user in question was discussing the issue on the talk page.
 * Anyone who disagrees with Bosniak is labeled a Serb apologist. Bosniak even goes so far as to compare their "destruction" of the article to the mass murders itself: an egregious violation of WP:AGF, to say the least.
 * The user threatens to have another user blocked for asking him to cease making ad hominem attacks, violating WP:CIVIL.
 * Bosniak persistently removes Serbophobia from the Anti-Bosniak sentiment article as part of an ongoing effort to make a point; see Articles_for_deletion/Bosniakophobia, an AFD the user was blocked for disrupting (see also this edit, where he falsifies votes for his bad faith nom of Serbophobia.)
 * The editor canvasses user talk pages, enlisting aid to preserve his POV within the article (characterizing the other editors as "genocide deniers"): ,
 * The editor's userpage is in itself a soapbox and clearly demonstrates his POV agenda.

The user had two previous AN/I reports, one in November and again in December. He was blocked for one week after the November report (in which he disrupted AFD processes). He lodged this complaint on AN/I against the admins who rolled back his soapbox canvassing, and it was suggested that he be blocked for two weeks if he acted again in this manner. It is clear that this user has not learned our policies concerning WP:NPOV, WP:RS, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, and WP:OWN. I confess that I do not have much knowledge of the tragedy at Srebrenica, but it is very clear that this user is interested in promoting a very particular POV to the exclusion of all others. Attempts to deal with this user are persistently met with accusations of vandalism, allegations of being a Serbian apologist, and threats to have users blocked or banned. I would like to ask for other administrators' input on how to handle this situation. --  Merope  21:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Talking about mission? Cheap shots. All of you who came here are on a mission - on a mission to ban me so you would be able to vandalize Srebrenica Massacre article. Talking about 'bad faith' you are the ones who have bad faith towards me and objective people building Srebrenica Massacre article. I have no bad faith, see - I am not complaining. I am just responding to your disagrements. Jim Douglas, Psychonaut, etc who came here are obviously on a mission. They can't achieve their goals with Srebrenica Massacre article, so they come here and complain. They treat Wikipedia as their personal page, and when they disagree with people, they want those people banned. By the way, Bosniakophobia is not an 'invented' or 'false' word. In fact, it's as much invented and as much as false as Serpophobia, but that's another story. Jim Douglas, Hadzija, Psychonaut, etc, have repeatedly ignored Srebrenica Massacre discussion page, and completely refused to take into consideration other people's opinions. Anyways, it's sad to see some people constantly complaining like toddlers. I would rather see them more productive in making this wikipedia better place for everyone. Bosniak 07:47, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I would recommend pursuing dispute resolution, starting with a Request for comment. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 21:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That may actually work if the editor were to be interested on dispute resolution, but looking at his contribution history it is easy to realise he is "on a mission". As a matter of fact, there is an ArbCom decision on Kosovo (see Requests_for_arbitration/Kosovo), which although not directly related was used in the past as rationale to block another user for disruption (Osli73). Regards, -- Asterion talk 22:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * We can also add to the list of grievances that he's a serial and unrepentant copyright violator. He has a history of contributing text and images without permission of the copyright holder, and continues to do this despite conspicuous warnings on his user talk page.  In fact, the most recent violation occurred just a few hours ago; see User talk:Bosniak.  For reporting such policy breaches I have been labelled a "Serb [who defends Serb interest on Wikipedia"], as have many other editors. —Psychonaut 06:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It looks like he may need another block, and quite possibly a community ban, given that he has not ceased soapboxing and violating copyrights. It's becoming clear that he is doing more harm than good to the encyclopedia and its community. I'm not sure if dispute resolution would work effectively in this case. --Core desat  06:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * As User:Bosniak has apparently decided there's no point in paying attention to my "Serb propaganda", I've asked one of his friends to have a chat with him. -- Jim Douglas (talk) (contribs)  07:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

My research
I, as a completely unconnected person conducted some research into the conduct of this user. I'm unable to make any judgements as to the quality or actuality of the edits since I am unfamiliar with the topic, but the pattern of behavior is clear.


 * Srebrenica massacre - edit warning
 * 04:49, 20 January 2007
 * 23:21, 19 January 2007
 * 05:16, 19 January 2007
 * 21:26, 18 January 2007
 * 21:34, 17 January 2007
 * 20:19, 16 January 2007
 * 07:55, 16 January 2007
 * 22:47, 15 January 2007


 * Soliciting help in edit war
 * User_talk:Bosniakk - 17 January 2007


 * Incivility and personal attacks
 * Ethnicity as an insult: (edit summary) "Duja is a Serb; stop reverting and deleting our comments. This is not your personal page. We have freedom of speech here." 17 January 2007
 * Insulting labeling: (edit summary) "(rv. Is Hadzija new provocateur?)" - 07:55, 16 January 2007 (2 more with similar language:
 * Incivil edit summary: (rv. Jim Douglas is a Serb apologist)'' - 22:47, 15 January 2007

What I see here is the aggressive pattern of an activist... someone who is here to push a point of view. (every revert changes "criticism" to "revisionism", etc). I don't know if a short-term block will get the attention of this user or not, but it might be worth a try. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 07:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If a community ban is the only solution, then by all means. My problem is what would stop him/her of creating a sockpuppet. (Well, I guess these would be easy to spot anyway). -- Asterion talk 09:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Indeed, I think he's worse than Gibraltarian and/or Beckjord (although I do NOT condone the behavior of these two people either), so I think that if he were to be permabanned, his user talk page should also be locked to prevent him from soapboxing on it. Scob e ll302 19:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Funnily enough he does remind me of User:Gibraltarian. -- Asterion talk 19:57, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Any sockpuppets should be easy enough to spot, given this user's behavior pattern. --Core desat  20:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I concur. Truth be told, I'm hesitant to call for a community ban because I feel it would result in martyrdom and a plethora of socks, but they would be easily spotted.  The user, however, runs a blog on this subject and would likely recruit meatpuppets to his purpose, which would be more difficult to control.  --  Merope  21:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not so sure whether meatpuppets would be a big problem - take Beckjord for instance: at one point he posted a notice on his website calling on his supporters to revert to his preferred version of Bigfoot, but with little success; the notice was eventually taken down. Scob e ll302 04:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Anything User:Bosniak does in retaliation for being banned couldn't be much worse than the situation we already have with pro-Bosniak POV warriors and policy violatiors. In the past month we've already had to deal with the likes of, , , , , , and probably a couple more I'm forgetting. —Psychonaut 03:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Talking about mission? Cheap shots. All of you who came here are on a mission - on a mission to ban me so you would be able to vandalize Srebrenica Massacre article. Talking about 'bad faith' you are the ones who have bad faith towards me and objective people building Srebrenica Massacre article. I have no bad faith, see - I am not complaining. I am just responding to your disagrements. Jim Douglas, Psychonaut, etc who came here are obviously on a mission. They can't achieve their goals with Srebrenica Massacre article, so they come here and complain. They treat Wikipedia as their personal page, and when they disagree with people, they want those people banned. By the way, Bosniakophobia is not an 'invented' or 'false' word. In fact, it's as much invented and as much as false as Serpophobia, but that's another story. Jim Douglas, Hadzija, Psychonaut, etc, have repeatedly ignored Srebrenica Massacre discussion page, and completely refused to take into consideration other people's opinions. Anyways, it's sad to see some people constantly complaining like toddlers. I would rather see them more productive in making this wikipedia better place for everyone. Bosniak 07:47, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I've made a point of staying out of this discussion, but I didn't want to leave Bosniak's comments above unanswered. No, I'm not "on a mission".  I explained how I came to be involved in that article here, in response to a suggestion that I was acting on some hidden agenda. -- Jim Douglas (talk)  (contribs)  08:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked Bosniak for 31hr for violating 3RR: ; ; ;. His comments above further cement my assertions that he fails to recognize WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. Any editor interested in this discussion can see that the above-named editors have in fact participated on the talk page of Srebrenica Massacre, explaining the WP policies of WP:NPOV and WP:BLP, but this user has failed to recognize their contributions. --  Merope  08:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that outburst removed any doubts I had about a long-term (not sure how long) or indefinite block. I would now support one since it's clear that he has no respect for policies or guidelines and is here to push a POV. --Core desat  08:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Based on what I've seen happening on Srebrenica massacre, a page that I've followed for years and where I sometimes try to mediate, I've come to the conclusion that it's nigh impossible to conduct a discussion on Talk:Srebrenica massacre in User:Bosniak's presence and thus I fully support a long block. And I implore all people looking in the matter to watchlist Srebrenica massacre; my experience is that User:Bosniak's fear that Serb apologists will vandalize the page is unfortunately well founded. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 10:54, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Earlier today I did some minor reformatting of the Srebrenica massacre article, which consisted entirely of what I thought to be noncontroversial typographical changes: replacing hyphens with dashes, trimming whitespace, fixing indentation, etc. You can view the diff between my first and last edits today. User:Bosniak seems to have flown into a rage over this, accusing me of "deleting important paragraphs of the article", "total desecration of the facts", vandalism, and genocide denial. I asked him politely three times to identify the information he alleges I removed from the article, but he refuses to do so, instead responding with insults, further accusations, and personal attacks.  See User talk:Bosniak for details. —Psychonaut 11:19, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I have increased the duration of the block to 1 week in the light of the evidence produced against this user; after seeking permission from the orginal blocking admin (Merope). (ref. WP:POINT, WP:3RR, WP:BLP) &mdash; Nearly Headless Nick  12:25, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Add WP:CIVIL to the list. &mdash; Nearly Headless Nick  12:33, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Lucy-marie consistently deleting warnings on own talk page and other problems
I recently left a warning on Lucy marie's talk page in about her recent conduct.

Her recent conduct including creating multiple disputes on one article, deadlocking the article and keeping it at a factually inaccurate version (incorrect quotes and references) for a month, a duplication article split, and carrying her dispute to other articles. 

She deleted my warning, and left me a rude note on my talk page, saying that she had deleted my warning because she had stopped editing the various person articles a week before.

I replied to her explaining why I felt the warning was important, but not to worrry about it, that it wasn't a big deal. I then restored the warning on her talk page and left her a slightly modified removewarnings template warning.

She took this as her cue to hide the warnings instead by taking them off of her short talk page, removing them from her short talk page and instead adding them to her 38 kb archive page.

I replied to another comment she left on my talk page explaining that the removewarning note on archiving did not mean that she could archive warnings she disagreed with or to hide them and referred her to the Help Desk.

When she didn't unarchive the warning, I did instead, and left a note about the archiving on her talk page. She responded to that by deleting the warnings yet again, and asked me what authority I had to leave a warning on her talk page (she seems to be under the impression that only administrators can warn users).

My warnings on Lucy-Marie's talk page

Lucy-Marie's comments on my talk page

I would appreciate assistance in handling this situation. I got in way over my head. I'd read a few of Lucy-Marie's comments when editing the various person's articles, so I knew that she had a habit of continually reverting people's work and was a POV pusher and it didn't really matter if she was presented with evidence that what she was saying was incorrect, but she'd never been particularly hostile (I thought) and was at least sorta attempting to discuss things with people, even if only to tell them that they were wrong. I thought a gentle warning from an outside party showing her that she'd gone so far in her edits as to tred on quotations and references might pull her back a little.

I didn't expect her to be rude and hostile from the get-go, to ignore all authority and show no respect for anything offical or the person she's currently disagreeing with. I kept trying to get her to take her problems with the warning to the helpdesk, but she seemed to think that it was easier to simply constantly revert warnings, and for the moment at least, it has been. She has no warnings on her talk page, and instead I have comments on mine with her complaining that I'm harrassing her. I haven't had any interaction with her before this, but I've read her comments on the person articles' talk pages and her talk page and I don't think any amount of "fact" I could point her to would help, because it would be coming from me. I've also now seen her get angry (vandalism), and I'd like to avoid escalation. She obviously does good work on Wikipedia when not getting into fights with people, so I'd really appreciate if someone could step in.

I think she needs to be warned--looking back at her edits she not only edited quotes and references (which she may not have noticed), but she changed the intro of the article (to avoid using the word personhood) which is having consequences now as the future role of the article is debated, and put in other POV pushing lines which couldn't be taken care of because of the deadlock. It took three separate people to revert her edits on non-person. She reverted back giving "no reason for revert" as her reason for reverting back, even though a reason was provided and there was an ongoing Rfc about whether persons was a word where even the dictionary definition she gave for people used the word persons 5 times to define people.

Which is why I warned her originally. And her subsequent behavoir, removing multiple warnings multiple times also I feel needs warning. This isn't a case of a newbie not knowing something (for example, if I'm screwing this up completely, or this is the wrong place, let me know), this is someone who's been warned multiple times but doesn't believe that they are valid or that other people are right. This is someone who has NPOV and a million other Wiki policies linked to her in talk pages reglarly and ignores them anyway. Thanks for any help you can provide.TStein 02:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If I were an admin, I'd probably have asked for a block based on her behavior related to this. JuJube 02:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * And you'd have been told that blocks aren't punative.--Docg 02:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It is really best to avoid putting warning notices on the pages of users whom you are in dispute with. They seldom help, and mostly tend to inflame the situation. And the user is perfectly entitled to remove them. If civil discussion is failing, I suggest you try one of the approaches at dispute resolution e.g. mediation or an RfC. This is not really a matter for admins.--Docg 02:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I wasn't in a dispute with her at all. I had zero contact with her until I warned her--our only contact and dispute has been about the warnings and her violation of Wikipedia policy in removing them. I wouldn't have had a problem with her going to the help desk or somewhere else, I had a problem with her deleting them--making a uniform decision that she was right, and I was wrong and it didn't matter what wikipedia policy or convention was, she could do what she wanted.  This was especially problematic as it was exactly the behavoir I was warning her about.
 * When I came to the persons article and saw the dispute, I originally never intended to warn her or anyone else about what I saw as a content dispute on the person article. I came to the article when it was deadlocked over the "persons" v "people" issue and over the "personhood" v. "being a person" issue--the article was deadlocked because everyone who had commented before was seen to have a bias.  I had no prior edits on the article or any associated articles and unlike the Rfc debacle, I didn't know anyone on the article beforehand.  I provided sources and fixed the problems.  In the following days, I found that what was going on was much bigger than a content dispute, and I saw to what extent Lucy_Marie had knowingly violated Wiki policy to POV push.  I looked carefully at edit histories and comments, and saw that there were points where she had blatantly lied to other editors, and when she was told that her edits had changed quotes she still deadlocked the article leaving quotes and references incorrect for a month to push her POV.
 * I saw what I felt was a fairly serious problem, and was probably the only person who saw the extent of it and couldn't be considered biased--I'd had no interaction with her or any of her articles. I left what I thought was a fairly mild warning, which spiralled quickly out of control.
 * There's nothing that we need additional comments for, so an Rfc is entirely inappropriate. I wasn't leaving a comment about a content dispute on her talk page, so we don't need dispute resolution or mediation.  There was a dispute on the person article, between herself and everyone else, and she's apparantely no longer interested in editing the article and the dispute doesn't exist anymore.  I wasn't involved in the article when the dispute did exist anyway, and the dispute was about the correct pluralization of the word "person" something that can and has been looked up several times.  I really can't help someone if they can't understand or don't want to listen to every dictionary, including the one that they cited.
 * Also, if users can simply delete warnings if they don't like or disagree with them, why is there a template warning about removing warnings? Does that only apply to certain warnings?  Can only certain users use this template?  I'd appreciate some clarification, especially as I thought that user talk pages (and their archives) were supposed to be records.  TStein 12:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * This has been discussed before. It is clear that users ARE entitled to remove warnings and are not obliged to archive.--Docg 14:33, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Chris Rix
There has been a tremendous amount of vandalism going on at the Chris Rix article with several IP's, and one account created under the name Creiree (merely to remove any negative comments about Rix ), continually vandalizing the article. Several editors have reverted the edits and left warnings on the user's talk pages to no avail. Attention and a checkuser of the new account name Creiree would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Quadzilla99 02:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * A checkuser should be requested at Requests for checkuser. — Mets501 (talk) 03:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok. The check user is minor though as the user has done 2 edits thus far, the constant vandalism is the issue. Quadzilla99 04:31, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The article has been fully protected. This was rather annoying though as he/she created an account to avoid 3RR. Oh well... the problem has been solved for now. MartinDK 13:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Daybreak Community
There are an IP only accoutn and 4 registered users are hammering in the smae links to Daybreak Community and connected entries (like Daybreak and Utah and property entries) - you can see the talk page for a list of them and the history for the back and forth revisions over the last month. As more accounts have signed up and got involved and this happens a number of times a day now I was wodnering if someone could look into this in more depth (check if they are all sock puppets that kind of thing and it maybe that the link they are trying to add should be blocked). There are a few of us working on reverting the vandalism but it is getting to be a pain. Warnings have been issued but they tend to spread across accounts so it takes longer for them to reach critical levels and the only banning so far has been temporary. (Emperor 04:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC))
 * Looks like a pile of socks to me. Since you appear to have an IP to work on, how about filing a WP:RFCU case "A"? In the meantime if the vandalism is getting too hard to deal with, you might wish to request semiprotection on the articles. Yuser31415 05:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for looking it over and the tip. I'll get on that now. (Emperor 05:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC))
 * Cool, I see you've filed a WP:RFCU. I added the code letter for you. Cheers! Yuser31415 05:28, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I added another one (Perpetualmachine) -- the one that deleted your comments above and also re-added the spam links. Antandrus  (talk) 05:31, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the help and spotting another account. They have also taken to blanking their user page too. (Emperor 05:33, 21 January 2007 (UTC))


 * I blocked them all except the anon, per the confirmation at Requests_for_checkuser (not that there was really any doubt: they don't get much more obvious than this).  Have we blacklisted the spamlinks, or do you think we should?  Antandrus  (talk) 06:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd recommend blacklisting the spamlinks, and at your discretion blocking account creation for the IP. This is the kind of thing we can do without. Yuser31415 07:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree - they are awfully persistent so I suspect a number of measures would be needed to stop them. Thanks again for the help - its the first time I've had to take things this far and your help made things go smoothly. (Emperor 14:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC))

User:TSLcrazier
User:TSLcrazier, has been causing a lot of trouble lately with Disney Channel articles. He constantly uploadeds images with no copyright info, or a source. He is also mass producing episode articles with little to no information, having only a sentance saying its an ep from what ever show, and an infobox, occasionally it contains the same summary SENTANCE that is on the list of episodes. He also has a habit of removing deletion tags from any article/image he creates. ( & for example) His contributions have been causing a lot of editors much grief trying to fix all of his work. --Malevious Userpage •Talk Page• Contributions 15:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * (originally started as a seperate thread, this was merged when I noticed this thread) This user is being a bit of a problem editor. He's uploading lots and lots of photos without fair use rationales (though they can be used under fair use), and seems to ignore rules as he sees fit, such as removing AfD tags, which he's done before and been warned for, if I remember correctly, and has done it again today. He generally seems to have the attitude "Screw the rules, I'll do what the hell I want", which is a dangerous attitude for someone without knowledge of the rules to have. What can be done, here? I was tempted to block him but that seems way over the top. --Deskana (request backup)  17:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Nobody going to comment on this? We could use an outside opinion. --Deskana (request backup)  21:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks like he's blocked now for a week, (thanks CambridgeBayWeather), and there's a couple of new warnings and explanations on his talk page. I really think this is the only thing we can do with a user as uncommunicative as this:  he's made no contributions to the talk space, excepting a page move, and here is his solitary contribution to the user talk space .  Even if there is a plausible fair-use rationale for these images, he has to begin giving source information.  Antandrus  (talk) 18:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Move of Homophobia to Misohomo by User:Topses
I believe this action constitutes WP:POINT. I can't find "misohomo" in any dictionary, only 17 results return on Google. Would someone change it back? Joie de Vivre 17:19, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks like someone already fixed it. Sorry for the interruption, and thank you!  Joie de Vivre 17:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I've left a warning at his Talk page not to do that sort of thing. It looks as though  is a bit of a problem editor in general, though, creating unsourced stubs on non-standard notions in linguistics, and on minor notions that are already part of longer articles. --Mel Etitis  ( Μελ Ετητης ) 18:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Repeated old vandalism
I really do not know what to do. User:VinceB repeated his vandalism, for which he was blocked in October. He is persistently trying to Hungarize official geographic and personal names in other languages. Moreover, he moved an article about a region in Slovakia to its Humngarian name,, though this kind of moves contradicts WP:NCGN, has been reverted by admins in the past, and was refused by a poll at Talk:Spiš. He also removed a category in a funny way (hiding it into a comment). Can anyone deal with him please? All the previous warnings and blocks of that user can be found at User talk:VinceB/Blabla1. Tankred
 * In all truth, this looks far more like a content dispute than vandalism. In the block mentioned his "vandalism" was the removal of messages from his talk page, and even then the blocking admin said the block was primarily for edit warring. If you look at his block logs, they are all for edit warring and NPA violations. --Wildnox(talk) 17:31, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I am sorry, you are right, that old incident just triggered an edit war, which lead to VinceB's block. But what to do with that recent disruptive edit, which is both against WP:NCGN and the consensus reached in a previous case Talk:Spiš? Why do we have any naming conventions, if they are not protected? Similarly, if you have an article called Petar Zrinski and you delete any mention of this official name from a link to that article, leaving only a Hungarian version of the name ( "Péter Zrínyi" , is it a content dispute or vandalism? Tankred 17:59, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If there was no consensus to move, it was a disruptive move, just move it back. As for the other thing, it is a content dispute, POV pushing most likely, but still a content dispute. --Wildnox(talk) 18:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Immediate attention needed at Stephen Colbert
Stephen Colbert History A revert every three minutes (automated bot?) - Immediate attention needed... wasn't sure where to put it. /Blaxthos 21:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Sprotected. --210 physicq  ( c ) 21:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Mastcell wikistalking
Closing pointless and fruitless finger-pointing discussion to save everyone's sanity. --210 physicq  ( c ) 22:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC) 
 * The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this page.


 * Note: comments moved from above discussion of Milo, to avoid muddying of issue

Yes, and I responded to you here. Please don't respond with groundless ad hominem attacks every time your behavior comes under scrutiny. MastCell 22:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You admitted on ANI to creating a sockpuppet which you used only to comment at Barrington Hall, and I have left numerous articles to avoid you, as you aware. The WP:STALK evidence is very clear in your case, and I think you have gambled that I would not report you because you know I don't want to have anything to do with you, not even an ANI case reporting you for wikistalking. But I would do it at this point, and ask any admins who are paying attention to bar Mastcell from stalking me. (Especially because he has done so twice now in order to escalate disputes at Barrington Hall/is having a dispruptive effect on the article.) This should be clearly marked as a separate issue from Milo if it continues, and moved to a WP:STALK complaint against Mastcell.-Cindery 22:48, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Sigh. Cindery, the "sockpuppet" situation you're referring to was reported (by me) at AN/I and received admin attention here. As far as my "disruptive" effect on the article, I invite any and all to review my contributions at Talk:Barrington Hall (I've made no edits to the article itself), and everywhere on Wikipedia for that matter. Cindery, your claim to the moral high ground on matters of disruption and sockpuppetry is tenuous, at best, and since you've shown no lack of vindictiveness, I can only assume you haven't "reported" me because I have not, in fact, violated WP:STALK, WP:DE, or any other policy. MastCell 22:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I have reported you because you stalked me from Emergency contraception to Depo Provera. In November, I left all birth control articles, specifically to avoid you. (And I was an excellent contributor to those articles, so it was a loss for Wikipedia). You then stalked me to Barrington Hall, using a sockpuppet. When I inquired on my talkpage in general about who "Girondin" was, you admitted on ANI to being Girondin. Your "confession" was archived by JMabel, in case I wanted to make an issue of it. Barrington Hall is an article you have never made an edit to, and which you aware I will not leave. You crop up at this article only during disputes, to escalate them.  You should be barred from stalking me to any articles, but Barrington Hall in particular.-Cindery 23:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you provide a timeline for this stalking and diffs to back up your position? How recent was this? Spartaz 23:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Much of the evidence can be found here: -Cindery 23:20, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Its nearly a month since then. Have you anything more recent to report? --Spartaz 23:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, please actually click on the "diffs" supplied there, and judge for yourself whether I was in fact being disruptive. MastCell 23:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Yes, but I just ignore him when he comments elsewhere. I will dig up the diffs. What I am concerned about is Barrington, because it really gives the creeps--he know he's "cornering" me at an article I'm personally committed to, and he shows up only to try yo escalate disputes. The recent diffs are all on the Barrington Hall talkpage. Someone else already pointed out to him "perhaps you are editing the wrong article," to which Mastcell responded with WP:OWN b.s, I think because he thought I wouldn't report him-- reporting him means having to be involved with him. For him, it's a win-win situation. I just want him to leave me alone, I already left all the birth control articles, and his presence at Barrington Hall is making things worse for everybody, not just me.-Cindery 23:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Note: here is a good example of him wikistalking, me just ignoring him. (Everyone else ignored him as well.) This was an ANI complaint started by J.Smith, in which J. Smith, Nick, and Guy were all involved, but dropped it for obvious good reasons. To their credit, they admitted they weren't unbiased, since they were all involved in the big You Tube/EL controversy at EL, taking the opposite position from me. Mastcell appeared at the end to try to continue the argument (and by doing so let me know that he was reading/stalking all of my contributions to EL, saying, in essence, "I am following every one of your edits, I read everything you write, and I will chime in if I think it will bother you, or make a situation worse,": -Cindery 00:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC) And here is a link to the entire discussion, so you can see his comment in context:

I started to respond, but since the above is mostly personal attacks and bad faith, maybe I'll just wait for diffs. It's all at Talk:Barrington Hall, if anyone cares. MastCell 23:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The point is that if it has been well-estabished that you and so and so don't get along, so and so has left articles where they were a regular editor to avoid you, and asked to be left alone, you should try to stay away from them--not stalk them. That's disruptive in and of itself. As for your "de-escalation" absurdity, no, it does not de-escalate disputes if you join them when they are heated and unbalanced, and you join on the unbalanced side against someone who has already asked to be left alone and pointedly avoids you. Since you stalked the EL issue and the EL You Tube issue at Barrington Hall specifically, you were already aware that the side you were joining was the "EL" side--editors who are not neutral, and arguably not disputing the issue at hand. So, seeing a bunch of people disgruntled that the You Tube link was allowed to stay try to pick a fight about something else, and deciding "hey, this would be a good time for a stalker to join! That would de-escalate the issue, if I sided with the disgruntled EL people!"  is ridiculous, and you know it. Now everyone else knows, too.-Cindery 03:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd refer the reader to the following diffs:, , which are my responses to her initial charges of "Wikistalking" and an attempt to de-escalate any conflict we had. Both were deleted by Cindery, with an edit summary describing them as "further harassment". I'd also suggest that my input at Depo Provera was not disruptive, and would note that you also "left all birth control articles" at a point where other editors (besides the two of us) were getting involved and a consensus was developing against some of your more strident edits. Perhaps most importantly, I'd invite anyone to review my input at Talk:Barrington Hall, which was aimed at de-escalation. But isn't this more appropriate for WP:DR? MastCell 23:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Note: and if you read what I wrote to him in those diffs, hopefully the irony of him providing a message in which I asked to be left alone, which he refused to honor, as evidence that he is not wikistalking me months later to is not lost.-Cindery 01:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Everyone agrees that my contributions to Emergency contraception. Mifepristone. amd Depo Provera were stellar. You have wikistalked me, and I consequently left all those articles to avoid you. Then you created a sockpuppet to stalk me to Barrington Hall, to escalate a dispute with baiting, uncivil language. Now you have returned to Barrington Hall, and are doing the same thing. You should leave me (and the article talkpage) alone.-Cindery 23:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I really have nothing else to say about this. For every further personal attack you make, just assume that I respond by disputing your charges, noting that others at the talk page don't agree with you, and referring any interested parties to review your behavior on Wikipedia. It will save time and space, and I can move on to more productive things. Think Ford Prefect asking Prosser to lie in the mud in front of the bulldozer in place of Arthur Dent. MastCell 04:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's very clear that you should stop stalking me. If you do it again, I will note it immediately at the location with a link to this page and make another report. -Cindery 04:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * YOU need to stop assuming bad faith. Someone uses an alternate account for a legitimate purpose, and you immediately jump on it and start calling it wikistalking. You have no proof for your claims. Therefore, stop calling it such unless you have much, much, more proof than flimsy speculation. --210 physicq  ( c ) 04:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem is that he only used the sockpuppet to make inflammatory uncivil comments to me. (And he admitted they were uncivil.)  That's a nice story--I invented this sock puppet for some noble purpose, but then I accidentally only used it to harass you?


 * Let's also note that I left all the birth control articles/Wikipedia entirely for a month, and when I returned, it was to Barrington Hall. Mastcell's first edit ever to Barrington Hall talkpage occurred then, after I left all the birth control articles--since he could no longer harass me there. Thinking I would ignore/avoid him, since I was actively avoiding him, he used a sockpuppet.-Cindery 05:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

And the stalking continues in spite of this complaint:

Per WP:STALK, you should not be here. [9]. Cease your disruption at this article. Do not stalk other editors.-Cindery 04:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC) It almost feels like you're trying to bully me (and Localzuk, and J.smith, and Milo) with ad hominem attacks and accusations of ulterior motives. There is actually constructive discussion going on below about the issues which got this page protected. Why not contribute to it? MastCell 04:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC) You're a special case all by yourself of WP:STALK. Why are you harassing and stalking someone who completely avoids you? It's not helping the article. As Astanhope said "you are editing the wrong article." -Cindery 05:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

(Note I am the author of most of the "constructive discsussion below.") -Cindery 05:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * So, he makes admittedly incivil mistakes a month ago, and now you make accusations based on events way long past? Ludicrous. --210 physicq  ( c ) 05:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * And the quote you give us is a great example of irony: You say that you won't discuss with him because he violated WP:STALK (a flimsy pretext in itself), and when he asks you to stop, you continue with accusations of WP:STALK and hound him wherever he goes. --210 physicq  ( c ) 05:20, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) No, I completely avoid him,l eft all articles I previously edited, and did not even make the prior ANI report I should have made about stalking because I didn't want to interact with him; I just want him to leave me alone. He's fixated on me, he has been for some time, and it gives me the creeps. "A month ago" shows a pattern--he has been stalking me for a while. If he doesn't stop, I will point out that he's doing it every time he does it, with a link to this page. -Cindery 05:28, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I am of the opinion that Cindery is disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point. Cindery - let it go.  if someone really is wikistalking you, someone will notice, especially after this AN post.  You're only digging yourself into a hole here, really - for if an admin is to take any action in this case, they would have to consider the actions of both parties, and your actions have been less than stellar.  Cheers, ✎  Peter M Dodge  (  Talk to Me  &bull;  Neutrality Project  ) 05:24, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * AStanhope has noticed. I haven't advertised  that I have a stalker, because I hoped he would go away if I ignored him. but he should leave me alone. "If you find that you can't get along with someone, perhaps it is best to avoid them," per Wiki--not stalk them after they leave all the articles they used to edit in order to avoid you.-Cindery 05:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you have proof that he's doing it right now? --210 physicq  ( c ) 05:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * [edit conflict):::::I posted above what he posted to the Barrington talkpage during this discussion. (Around the same time he said he had nothing more to say on the subject, and I said I would point out his stalking in the future if he did it again, he posted to Barrington talkpage. While this discussion was/is ongoing.) There's no benefit to Wikipedia in him stalking me; there are a million other articles for him to edit, etc. Again, I completely avoid him and left articles to which I was a significant and productive contributor just to avoid him--there's no need for him to stalk me to articles he doesn't edit at all, let alone to join disputes, use sockpuppets to make inflammatory remarks, etc.-Cindery 05:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see him stalking you; I do see, however, you harassing him. Unless you will provide convincing diffs instead of futile rhetoric, I will hold this opinion. --210 physicq  ( c ) 05:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Less rhetoric, more proof, please, Cindery. Cheers, ✎  Peter M Dodge  (  Talk to Me  &bull;  Neutrality Project  ) 05:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Following people --who leave articles to avoid you and ask to be left alone-- to articles you don't edit is stalking.-Cindery 05:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That's not proof, that's rhetoric. Proof in the form of diffs, please, or your complaint will be dismissed as frivolous. --210 physicq  ( c ) 05:44, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Starting from when? (To establish that I contributed 60 citations--half the research--to Emergency contraception, while he contributed only to the talkpage, in comments addressed only to me, I could provide diffs, but there would be hundreds. It's boring research, too. A glance at the edit history of the article and the talkpage will give you the overall picture. I'll give you a diff which shows a clear personal attack on me which I did not report, and includes a statement from me that I would report him for harassment, and points out that I had already asked him not to address me on my talkpage because he was overly emotionally engaged with/fixated on me. I never reported him--I just left.  The story is: after a fairly minor disagreement at Emergency contraception, he stalked me to Depo Provera, so I left Depo Provera, after expressing concern that he had imported anger from the EC dispute directly to Depo. He was very emotionally overangaged on my talkpage, so I asked him to disengage/leave me alone, stick to articles. He then devoted all his time to harassing me on the talkpage of Emergency contraception until I left. After I left, he stalked me to Barrington Hall.)-Cindery 06:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * And here is a recent diff of his response to User:Astanhope, who told Mastcell, "perhaps you are editing the wrong article. I think you are needed elsewhere.": -Cindery 06:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Frankly, I see no personal attacks by MastCell, but I see instances of incivility by you. Though minor, you are now only serving to discredit yourself, not the person you are disagreeing with. I find your post of "Sorry, you just have no case" particularly interesting. --210 physicq  ( c ) 06:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Cindery, you keep saying you "left articles to avoid me" and that I "harassed you away from articles". It seems a little incongruous that someone who dishes out as much abuse as you is so thin-skinned as to be chased away by our relatively mild (in the grand scheme of things) content disputes at emergency contraception or Depo Provera. So I just took a look at the chronology. Your last edit to Emergency contraception was Dec. 1. Your next edit was to post a Wikibreak notice. You then returned early from your break specifically to fight about YouTube and managed to accrue 3 blocks in rapid succession. After which you wrote that you would no longer contribute constructively to Wikipedia, and would limit your involvement to a campaign to de-sysop someone you had a disagreement with (and for good measure, went after Essjay, who had run a checkuser case on you). And now here we are. So to claim that you left emergency contraception to avoid me is convenient for you at the moment, but it seems equally likely that the above sequence of events, which had little or nothing to do with me, was responsible. MastCell 06:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, look, I'm fairly thick-skinned, but Cindery's now made dozens of edits today calling me a "stalker". You've presented your case. If you want to add more diffs, do it. But further unsupported accusations are really just personal attacks, and at this point I'd ask that they be treated as such. MastCell 06:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * This is about you, and the fact that you are stalking me, and that it serves no good purpose for Wikipedia. (Anyone with the patience to read your 40 pages of nitpicking harassment on the Emergency Contraception page will want to leave that article too.)

But I will address what you have said, for the benefit of readers, with the caveat that it does not mean I will allow you sidetrack focus off of your stalking.


 * 1. I had a sterling rep prior to the block--which was one extended block, and if I wasn't already disgusted enough by you to have left all the articles I used to edit, I would have contested the blocks, as the first, for "npa" was extremely weak. The block was for a draft of an RfC against Nick on my talkpage. The next person to make a draft saw their draft deleted and protected from recreation. There was definitely concerted interest in preventing people from organizing transparently to file an RfC against Nick. If I had intended to "personally attack" Nick, I would have left a message on his talkpage. Putting together an RfC is not a personal attack.


 * 2. User:Mumblio is not a sockpuppet, he is a human being. His unblock request and his letter to Essjay were ignored. No one "went after" Essjay--it was pointed out that he ignored an email in the hope that he would reply. Mumblio, incidentally, interviewed a lawyer this week, in his capacity as a journalist, who turned out to represent a member of the Foundation. (They traded stories and gossip.) He does idly sometimes want to contribute again--about some guy named Gene Savoy. He thinks the lawyer will help him. I told him just to create another account and stay away from me (his home IP is not blocked.) He likes the name "Mumblio," though. He was blocked after making a single comment re the Barrington You Tube dispute.


 * 3. Yes, after you, and then that, I was completely disgusted, and I still am--I agree with a lot of "Why Wikipedia is not so Great." Nevertheless, I followed through on the Nick RfC, and the EL issues (I felt somehwat better about Wikipedia at the Foundation level after the Foundation's comments on that, but still feel there are too many people-with-problems.) I also massively improved Rheingold Beer--it's hard to resist improving articles sometime, even if one agrees Wikipedia is not so great because of the people.

In closing, maybe I haven't made myself clear enough about your stalking: you give me the creeps. Leave me alone. I will never like you. You crossed the line when you stalked me to Depo Provera and then refused to stop posting on my talkpage after I asked--your emotional over-engagement was the creepiest thing that has ever happened to me on Wikipedia. There is no chance I will ever change my mind and want to have anything to do with you if only you stalk me enough. I know that you feel rejected. That is not my problem. Invest emotionally in something in the real world. What part of stay away from me don't you understand? The "dispute resolution" that you desire/keep asking for, where I end up liking you is never_going_to_happen. The way to resolve this is for you to stay away from me. I left all the birth control articles--you can stop stalking me.-Cindery 06:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Comparison of contributions
Out of curiosity, I've tried to compare the contributions of both of these editors. I don't promise that this is all correct, but I've tried to match pages that both have edited in their past 1000 edits, to see who was 'first'. None of this proves or disproves anything, but just in case its interesting to anyone.

First instance of each user editing at the same page:


 * 1) Depo_Provera
 * 2006-11-03 23:01 MastCell
 * 2006-11-16 02:49 Cindery
 * 1) Emergency_contraception
 * 2006-11-02 19:11 MastCell
 * 2006-11-11 01:50 Cindery
 * 1) Mark_McClellan
 * 2006-11-11 01:38 MastCell
 * 2006-11-11 19:32 Cindery
 * 1) Mifepristone
 * 2006-11-11 22:02 Cindery
 * 2006-12-19 18:49 MastCell
 * 1) Talk:Barrington_Hall
 * 2006-12-07 07:06 Cindery
 * 2007-01-17 06:43 MastCell
 * 1) Talk:Emergency_contraception
 * 2006-11-02 19:03 MastCell
 * 2006-11-11 01:57 Cindery
 * 1) Talk:Mifepristone
 * 2006-11-12 03:34 Cindery
 * 2006-12-19 19:40 MastCell
 * 1) User_talk:Cindery
 * 2006-11-07 05:28 MastCell
 * 2006-11-13 07:42 Cindery
 * 1) User_talk:Milo_H_Minderbinder
 * 2007-01-17 19:49 MastCell
 * 2007-01-19 20:30 Cindery
 * 1) User_talk:William_M._Connolley
 * 2006-12-21 07:02 Cindery
 * 2007-01-17 19:44 MastCell
 * 1) User_talk:Wizardry_Dragon
 * 2007-01-18 00:22 MastCell
 * 2007-01-20 05:44 Cindery
 * 1) Administrators%27_noticeboard
 * 2006-11-21 19:49 Cindery
 * 2007-01-15 18:32 MastCell
 * 1) Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents
 * 2006-11-28 23:44 MastCell
 * 2006-12-21 01:14 Cindery
 * 1) Requests_for_comment/Sir_Nicholas_de_Mimsy-Porpington
 * 2006-12-29 17:12 Cindery
 * 2007-01-04 21:54 MastCell

Checked MastCell back to 20:34, 26 October 2006. (1000 edits) MastCell was 'first' 8 times.

Checked Cindery back to 01:50, 11 November 2006. (1000 edits) Cindery was 'first' 6 times.

Regards, Ben Aveling 09:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Your diffs don't make any sense--at Depo Provera, for example, I was a long-time contributor--Mastcell showed up there 30 minutes after the dispute at Emergency contraception (and a day after I sent a message to another editor saying that article meant something to me). After he was (and admitted he was) "more argumentative" than he should be, I left.  His knowledge that I edited that article didn't come from the article.  At emergency contraception, I returned after a long break and didn't even notice him until he fixated on me/began responding directly to me. Your Barrington diffs don't take into account his sockpuppet, Girondin, in December...and so on.-Cindery 10:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * ...and your diffs for Milo's talkpage, William M. Connelly's talkpage, and the admin noticeboard refer to instances in which one or the other of us was discussing something completely unrelated/wasn't aware of the other. (But the idea of "first" leaves out the concept of "repsonse"--so while you have included two completely unrelated comments we made on ANI, you have left out his responses to me on ANI.)-Cindery 10:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Absolutely. This is looking only at the fact of editing.  For example, it 'shows' that MastCell was first to your talk page, which clearly isn't true.  It's just that in his past 1000 edits, he has some edits on your talk page that are older than any of your past 1000 edits, so he appears to be 'first'.  Regarding Depo Provera, all my report says is that he too is a long time contributor.  That doesn't mean he wasn't stalking, it just provides an alternate explaination for why he might be at the page - he probably already had it watchlisted.  I guess I could list all of your edits at each page, would that be more useful?  It might be quite long.  What about I take this to your talk page?  Anyone interested can follow us there.  Regards, Ben Aveling 10:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * This is an example of a meaningful comparison: I left on Dec. 1. I returned on Dec 20--to the Barrington Hall talkpage. (an article I have edited for a while, far away from birth control articles.) Mastcell made his first appearance there on Dec 21--as a sockpuppet.-(How would he know I was back if he weren't stalking me, etc.)Cindery 10:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * He might have seen your edit at Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents. More likely he may saw that you had edited your own talk page.  What I can say is that you didn't edit any other pages that I would expect him to have on his watchlist, based only on his last 2000 edits.  Below are all the edits from either of you on pages that you have both edited, from when you left to when his sock appeared at Barrington Hall.  At a complete guess, he either followed your contributions or the link on your user page.  And I'm going to log off.  Back tomorrow.  Regards,  Ben Aveling 12:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Note: thanks, Ben. I would like to point out that there was no link to Barrington Hall on my userpage at the time. As you have noted that I didn not return to any articles I previously edited/that might be on his watchlist, I think it is safe to guess that he was stalking my edits.-Cindery 21:37, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * No, that's not what I said. He edited your talk page in November, so it's quite likely that he knew you were back as soon as you edited it.  I'll annotate below.  For me, there are two issues here, of which I'm only looking at one, but you should consider them both.  The issue I'm not looking at is what did he say, was it valid?  The issue I am looking into is why did he say it?  Was he following you, and why?  There are valid reasons for following people.  For example, I'm following you both around at the moment for what I hope is a valid reason - to try to help you both contribute better to Wikipedia.  But rather than you and I guessing, let's just ask him.  MastCell, I assume you're reading this.  What took you to Barrington Hall?  Regards, Ben Aveling 22:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * 2006-12-07 06:55 Cindery User_talk:Cindery
 * 2006-12-07 06:57 Cindery User_talk:Cindery
 * 2006-12-07 07:06 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
 * Last edit by Cindery
 * 2006-12-08 05:27 MastCell Talk:Emergency_contraception
 * 2006-12-15 18:20 MastCell Talk:Emergency_contraception
 * 2006-12-17 00:25 MastCell Talk:Emergency_contraception
 * 2006-12-18 23:25 MastCell Talk:Emergency_contraception
 * 2006-12-19 19:40 MastCell Talk:Mifepristone
 * 2006-12-20 18:21 MastCell Talk:Depo_Provera
 * 2006-12-20 18:22 MastCell Talk:Depo_Provera
 * 2006-12-20 18:32 MastCell Talk:Depo_Provera
 * 2006-12-20 18:43 MastCell Talk:Depo_Provera
 * 2006-12-20 18:58 MastCell Talk:Depo_Provera
 * 2006-12-20 21:57 MastCell Talk:Depo_Provera
 * 2006-12-20 21:59 MastCell Talk:Depo_Provera
 * 2006-12-20 22:02 MastCell Talk:Depo_Provera
 * 2006-12-20 23:29 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
 * Cindery returns
 * 2006-12-20 23:46 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
 * 2006-12-21 00:18 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
 * 2006-12-21 00:30 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
 * 2006-12-21 01:14 Cindery Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents
 * 2006-12-21 01:23 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
 * 2006-12-21 04:01 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
 * 2006-12-21 04:59 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
 * 2006-12-21 06:42 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
 * 2006-12-21 07:02 Cindery User_talk:William_M._Connolley
 * 2006-12-21 07:29 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
 * 2006-12-21 22:58 Cindery User_talk:Cindery
 * Cindery edits her own talk page
 * 2006-12-21 23:08 Cindery User_talk:Cindery
 * 2006-12-21 23:16 Cindery User_talk:Cindery
 * 2006-12-21 23:34 Girondin Talk:Barrington_Hall
 * 36 minutes later, the puppet makes its first edit
 * 2006-12-21 23:35 Girondin Talk:Barrington_Hall
 * 2006-12-21 23:42 Cindery Talk:Barrington_Hall
 * 2006-12-21 23:49 Girondin Talk:Barrington_Hall


 * Note that his reapperance at talk:Barrington Hall was January 17th, and his mea culpa about the sockpuppet harassment was Dec 25 (and the long notes re his previous wikistalking, in which I stated "I completely avoid you.) There's nothing innocent about returning to the page three weeks later.-Cindery 11:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * User:Girondin? I'll check, see what I can see.  Just let me do the washing up first.  Cheers, Ben Aveling 10:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It would be nice if there was a way to get a count of the mainspace edits I made to emergency contraception vs. the mainspace edits he made (and a count of his talkpage edits) for November. Is that possible?-Cindery 11:24, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * In the mainspace for that page in November, you made 220 edits and he made 48. On the talk page you made 159 and he made 88.  Why do you ask?  Do I want to know?  Regards, Ben Aveling 12:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Unwanted attention
I looked at the contributions from Girondin and can't relate this to stalking. Stalking should involve some form of harrassment. It looks like a normal content dispute to me. In this interaction above girondin is trying to explain to Cindery the ins-and-outs of wikipedia. It borders on being helpful!!! Closer to a mentor than a stalker. David D. (Talk) 22:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * He found this page by stalking my edits, used a sockpuppet to make comments he admitted were uncivil, during a dispute. (And clearly was not much of a "mentor" as WP:SIG doesn't advise having a username and sig which are not obviously the same to the casual reader--it can be considered disruptive. There's no reason a user couldn't apply right now to register the username "Nearly Headless Nick," as it is not registered to anyone, but the sig of Mimsy.)  Let's also note that you are currently involved in the Barrington Hall dispute.-Cindery 22:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * WP:SIG is not policy as far as I am aware. Many users have signatures that differ from their user account. The fact he was trying to point this out to you was quite helpful considering your first post in that section. The only uncivil bit is the "self congratulatory" part which is not exactly OTT given what you have on your user page, re: the "Barrington six".
 * My involvement in the Barrington page is due to the arguments overflowing on to this page. There is no reason why i should not edit the page and give my opinions on whether your sources are reliable, or not. David D. (Talk) 22:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Note that 1) WP:SIG states: "While not an absolute requirement, it is common practice for a signature to resemble to some degree the username it represents. Signatures that obscure an account name to the casual reader may be seen as disruptive" and 2) I edited my userpage to note Barrington six, etc two days ago 3) please keep content dispute on the page of the article. Noting that you are involved in the content dispute is helpful here, in my view. Let's not confuse the issues. This is about a clear case of stalking.-Cindery 23:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Just discovered it was a recent edit (added link to my original comment for clarification) but still the fact you wrote still shows it is not an OTT observation. I repeat WP:SIG is not policy, I know what it says. Look around you and note how many other users do not follow the guideline. It is no crime, although I personally would not recommend it.  Also it is quite normal for people who are involved in a dipute to comment on WP:ANI, this is a place for community input. To be frank you probably need to learn a little more about how things work in wikipedia.  It seems that all your disputes involve people trying to help you understand how to sucessfully contribute to wikipedia. If you refuse the advice from others on what can be considered a reliable source then you will be in many more disputes. Please listen to what other have to say, believe it not, many are trying to help your write an article that will be stable. David D. (Talk) 23:24, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Perception is reality
Stalking should involve some form of harrassment. --David D.

Remember though, that unwanted attention is itself harrassment. Suppose a colleague kept giving you gifts, even after you asked them stop. It's important to look at what was said, but it's also important to look at other things as well. I've looked though both users contributions at some length. I have not checked the quality of the contributions, but they do match the pattern Cindery is complaining about. At Depo Provera, Emergency contraception, Depo Provera and Talk:Emergency contraception Cindery was editing regularly, then MastCell started editing, both of them edited for a while, then Cindery stopped editing. At Mifepristone Cinder was editing then stopped, and MastCell is now editing. At Talk:Barrington Hall Cindery was and still is editing, and MastCell occasionally drops by. Let's just say that if MastCell were to show up at any more pages where Cindery is editing, I'd look badly on it. Regards, Ben Aveling 23:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest you look at the "quality of contributions", then. I stand by the fact that I've improved both Depo Provera and emergency contraception, and not disrupted either article. I explained what should have been obvious with a basic assumption of good faith here (which Cindery rejected as "further harassment"). I don't see why I need to check to see if Cindery's been at a page before I edit it, so long as I contribute constructively and don't disrupt/attack/violate policy - and I think that's a really questionable precedent to set. MastCell 23:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The short answer is "Because it would make the universe a happier place". It doesn't take long to check the last 50 edits once and it would save a lot of stress for a lot of people.  Right or wrong, Cindry is convinced that you are still following her around.  Regards, Ben Aveling 00:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That is a dangerous precedent to set, though well-intentioned. Should we cater to Cplot because he perceives there is a pro-government cabal on Wikipedia? No! Doing so would be absurd. Likewise, doing so here would be akin to acquiescing to disruptive forces on Wikipedia, though I do not equate Cindery to such undesirable elements. We are not here to make everyone happy, warm, and fuzzy. If we are to edit peacefully in this world, we either must swallow what bitter medicine others force down us or we grow a thicker skin. --210 physicq  ( c ) 00:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Note: I do not think it is necessary that he check the last 50 edits of every new article he edits to see if I have edited there. What I would like him to stop doing is harassing me at a specific article, and following my contributions in order to make inflammatory comments, like the one at ANI regarding the You Tube/EL dispute. He doesn't need to check every article (I edit so few anyway) what he needs to is stop adressing me directly in a hostile way.-Cindery 00:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That does not explain why your sockpuppet appeared at talk:Barrington Hall a half hour after I edited my talkpage after a long break (you did not answer Ben's question about that) and it especially does not answer why you would return to the same talkpage after I pointed out that I was purposely avoiding you. There was nothing "innocent" about returning to the Barrington Hall talkpage after you used a sock there, and after I explicitly told you that I completely avoid you. That was clearly stalking and harassment, not accidentally stumbling on a page you merely hadn't noticed I had edited before--you were aware I edited that article because you had already harassed me there with a sockpuppet. -Cindery 00:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

PS. I suggest we all try not to repeat ourselves. Let's try to find the things that haven't yet been said. Regards, Ben Aveling 00:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Ben, it is not harrassment to correct people who are not willing to adhere to WP:RS and WP:V. It is common for editors to try and limit the damage that such individuals bring to wikipedia. To suggest it is stalking and protect editors such as cplot flys against reason. Not supporting Mastcell now is a bad precedent to set and is the wrong thing to do, in my opinion. David D. (Talk) 13:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Note: David D. is heavily involved in a dispute at Barrington Hall, and has started several others, apparently after an uncivil "request for input" from Hipocrite, who was involved in the EL dispute (read towards the bottom):.-Cindery 22:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Request for the admins
Since this is being discussed here, could an admin persuade Cindery to stop bringing up her stalking accusations at Talk:Barrington Hall? We're trying to edit an article there, and repeated "go away, you're stalking me" messages just sidetrack the discussion. Thanks. --Milo H Minderbinder 14:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks
I feel a little ridiculous even continuing this, but if nothing else, look at WP:STALK. It defines Wikistalking as "following an editor to another article to continue disruption... the important part is the disruption." Look at emergency contraception, Depo Provera, Barrington Hall, or at any of my contributions - can anyone (besides Cindery) say that I've been disruptive, there or anywhere on Wikipedia? The User:Girondin edits are here, and were made to correct a misunderstanding in a debate I wasn't involved in. Judge for yourself if they're disruptive. The situation was reported, by me, to AN/I and discussed here. Finally, when I've said anything about Cindery here, it's been backed up by diffs. On the other hand, her posts (this one in particular) consist mostly of personal attacks and abuse. Like I said, I'm thick-skinned, but aren't there some standards, even in a dispute? MastCell 17:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikistalking
Is defined as:

"Following an editor to another article to continue disruption (also known as wikistalking) The term "wiki-stalking" has been coined to describe following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor."

That means that if on Dec. 25th you admit to using a sockpuppet to harass someone at an article you have never edited before, after they have left previous articles to avoid you, and you are aware of that because they write:" I completely avoid you. For you to then create a sock account and use it only to make inflammatory comments on the talkpage of an article where I returned as a regular editor and you have never before made a contribution appears to be very clear use of a sock to harass/wikistalk in the worst faith possible. What is creepy beyond-the-pale to me is that you were harassing/wikistalking someone who left articles in order to avoid you/was very actively avoiding you." --returning to the same article only three weeks later is very clearly wikistalking (and harassment).-Cindery 19:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * No. I haven't been disruptive there or anywhere, a fact that others at Talk:Barrington Hall agree with (,, , , etc). These are continuing personal attacks by an editor who's been blocked for the same in the past, occurring on WP:AN/I no less. I'm asking you to stop. If you don't, I'm asking that someone put a stop to your constant, unsupported personal attacks. MastCell 19:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * No, the regular editors at Barrington Hall do not agree with you: . As for disruption, you are not only wikistalking/harassing someone at an article where only three weeks ago you used a sockpuppet to make inflammatory remarks/tried to inflame a dispute, but you are doing the same thing again: you returned to Barrington Hall precisley when the You Tube/EL people picked a fight about something else (a dispute that has no lack of contributors, and is now an extremely long thread completely out of proportion to the importance of what is being disputed.) As your ANI stalker comment  made apparent that you followed the You Tube/EL dispute, you aware of exactly what you are doing.-Cindery 19:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * What you need to do, which I have repeatedly pointed out, is stop stalking me, if you don't want me to point it out. There are a million articles for you to edit, and it does not serve Wikipedia for you to stalk anyone, i.e., return to any articles where you have used a sockpuppet to harass someone whom you are aware completely avoids you, as I explicitly told you I completely avoid you, and left all the articles I used to edit.-Cindery 20:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact that you see a distinction between "regular editors" and other editors is a perfect example of the attitude of ownership you and Astandhope have over the article. I have seen no disruptive behavior by Mastcell there, and based on the lack of action taken by admins it looks like they don't either.  However, your continued accusations there are off-topic and becoming disruptive, please keep the whole stalking thing here and not at the article.  --Milo H Minderbinder 20:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * He hasn't stalked me there in the last 16 hours or so--he stopped last night after I began pointing it out (at the article, but after this report). Hence I have not pointed out on the talkpage that he is stalking me during that time. There is a distinction between the regular editors of the article, and a small group of people leftover from the You Tube/EL dispute (and then there is Mastcell, who is in a WP:STALK category all by himself, who opportunistically joined them.)  As I have just made a complaint against you, Milo, for blanking a section against consensus instead of discussing--when the consensus included all parties, even the YT/EL crew--I do not find that you are an impartial judge of whether Mastcell is wikistalking. Clearly he is. Again, he created a sockpuppet to harass me on the talkpage, was aware that I completely avoid him because I explicitly said so, and then returned to the talkpage only three weeks later, to inflame a dispute.'-Cindery 20:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see that he's stalked there in the past month. You're not saying that you plan to respond to every post of his on the talk page with a stalking accusation, are you?  And you're still insisting on that "blanking a section against consenus" thing, even though at least three other editors have removed that same passage and more have agreed with the deletion on the talk page?  Who exactly do you feel is part of that "consensus" besides you and Astandhope?  --Milo H Minderbinder 20:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

(undent) editing there at all is stalking me (perhaps you are confused that Girondin=Mastcell).-Cindery 21:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That statement shows a blatant misunderstanding of wikistalking. "Following an editor to another article to continue disruption" is the definition you provided yourself.  Now you insist that if he edits the same article as you it's stalking, even if there's no disruption?  --Milo H Minderbinder 21:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You need to reread the definition--wikistaking is itself disruption, and is defined as following abother editor around.-Cindery 21:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There's an important part of the definiton that nobody has pointed out: "This does not include checking up on an editor to fix errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, nor does it mean reading a user's contribution log; those logs are public for good reason. The important part is the disruption - disruption is considered harmful." Cindery has shown disregard for WP:RS and WP:NOR at the article in question (not to mention WP:OWN) - I hope someone is keeping an eye on the articles she edits.  It seems like there's some circular logic going on here - it's stalking because it's disruptive/it's disruptive because it's stalking.  --Milo H Minderbinder 13:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Note: Milo is the subject of a complaint above which got the article protected, is not participating in discussion at the article now, and was involved in the EL dispute.-Cindery 22:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Done pointing fingers yet? It seems like everyone has dropped the issue except you. --210 physicq  ( c ) 22:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Redux
It seems to me that this entire thread (or rather, these threads) boil down to Cindery complaining that some other users are nearly as argumentative as she is. Can we please archive this and send it to dispute resolution? Guy (Help!) 21:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * This thread is about stalking. ( Let's note also that you were majorly involved in the You Tube/EL dispute, and are in no way impartial. You probably shouldn't be commenting at all without noting that--unless you're trying to derail the subject?)-Cindery 21:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * "Editing there at all is stalking me?" That's interesting, but not what WP:STALK actually says ("...disruption is the important thing") and seems to fly in the face of "anyone can edit any article at any time." You've "settled" disputes in the past by bullying those you disagree with - Severa comes to mind - or accusing others of harassment. That's generally not a productive way of settling disputes. But Guy is right - no one seems inclined to block me for "Wikistalking", nor to block you for your constant, unsupported attacks, so why not go to dispute resolution? It wouldn't be the first time you've filed an RfC to try to settle a score. MastCell 22:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Attempting to derail the issue with false accusations will not work. Wikistalking, again, is: Following an editor to another article to continue disruption (also known as wikistalking) The term "wiki-stalking" has been coined to describe following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor. As you admitted to using a sockpuppet to harass me at Barrington Hall three weeks ago, returning to that talkpage is very clearly stalking. There is no dispute to resolve: what you need to do is stop stalking me. It's very simple.-Cindery 22:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, my edit has diffs; yours has accusations. Here is what I "admitted to", which you keep misrepresenting. My point was that you use accusations to bully editors with whom you have content disputes. A question to any masochistic admins who are still reading this thread: Cindery's now made nearly 75 edits in the past 24 hours containing my name and some variation of the word "Wikistalking", without providing any convincing evidence. Is there some point at which these become personal attacks that warrant preventive action? I'd like to move on, but it's hard to do so with a constant drumbeat of unfounded accusations. MastCell 22:55, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I have made no edits to Barrington Hall pointing out that you are stalking me, since you stopped. It's very simple: do not stalk me if you do not want me to point it out. You shouldn't be stalking anyone, period, whether they are forced to point it out or not. Do not stalk other editors.-Cindery 23:19, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * ENOUGH. You have not substantiated your claims, Cindery, you have merely spouted off groundless accusations on this thread. If you have definite proof, lay it out for all to see; if you don't, stop whining and avoid MastCell (MastCell, also avoid Cindery). Further harassment of MastCell (yes, I am now calling it harassment now) will be seen as disruption, and will result in a block. --210 physicq  ( c ) 23:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * There should also be a ban on Cindery ever using the word "stalk" again, since she's used it here enough for one lifetime ( 71 72 73 by my count). ^_^ JuJube 23:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Resolution?
I have a proposal for both of you. MastCell, you agree not to edit Barrington Hall or any page that Cindery is editing, excluding the birth control articles. Cindery, you agree never to mention MastCell again. MastCell, you agree never to mention Cindery again. Both of you take each others' talkpages off your watch lists, as well the other pages I've proposed you agree not edit. How does that sound? Regards, Ben Aveling 23:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That is all I want.-Cindery 00:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * (Note: his talkpage is not on my watch list; never has been.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cindery (talk • contribs) 00:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Since part of the problem appears to be Cindery's WP:OWN issues regarding Barrington Hall, encouraging that idea and seeming to reward behavior which enforces it seems like a lousy "compromise" to me. --Calton | Talk 00:19, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * All compromises are lousy. It's in the nature of the things.  But it seems the best tradeoff to me.  Most, maybe even all of MastCell's edits on that page are not about the Hall itself, so I suggest that it's an acceptable loss.  Regards, Ben Aveling 00:59, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I do not own Barrington Hall, I am a significant contributor to that article. I think the unfair compromise (to Wikipedia) was that I left all the birth control articles already, to avoid Mastcell. It's not much to ask that all he do is desist from following me around elsewhere, esp. desist joining/inflaming a dispute against me at the talkpage of an article he has never edited, and where he has admitted to harassing me with a sockpuppet. I think Ben's suggestion was extremely balanced/fair-minded.-Cindery 00:25, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * As I said ppreviously, not an admin, just a watcher, generally. However, I do agree with Calton. It seems that your solution rewards Cindery for assuming someone's out to get her, and raising a stink about it. Even worse, your solution is one sided, because it says MastCell can't edit anythign Cindery does, but not vice versa. Thus Cindery could easily use this restraining order to ruin his wiki-life, by editing his more usual haunts, and then run for admins when he goes to them. While I'm sure the admins would see through it quickly, why set up for more AN/I filings about this? I think Cindery set herself up for most of this by giving the statements about her personal relationship with the subjects of the article, and it came back to bite her. ThuranX 01:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not one-sided, as I already avoid all articles he edits/avoid him entirely, and will be happy to state that I would never go near any article he edits--I have clearly stated since late December that I want nothing to do with him, nor have I edited any articles he edits. (Thanks for claiming I "set myself up"--nobody deserves be stalked/harassed; there is no possible justification for it.) If he's truly interested in "conflict de-escalation," the very simple thing to do is stay away from me. It takes zero effort.-Cindery 01:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd agree with Calton as well. The article has serious ownership issues, and I don't think using stalking as an excuse to make people who aren't "regular editors" go away just encourages it.  --Milo H Minderbinder 13:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

A few things: Here's my proposal for resolution:
 * I haven't violated any policy or guideline. I've been civil and content-focused at Talk:Barrington Hall, and I've been as civil as possible here. Every claim I've made here is backed up by diffs. (Compare my behavior here to Cindery's). Therefore, I don't see why I should be constrained, every time I'd like to edit an article, to first make sure Cindery hasn't been there first.
 * I cited the diffs above to indicate that Cindery has a history of responding to content disputes by bullying editors she disagrees with. That's what's happening here, and I think your suggested resolution only rewards such behavior.
 * I don't have any plans to comment further at Talk:Barrington Hall, because my concerns (which had to do with WP:V and WP:RS) are shared by a number of other editors there and are being addressed by them, and contrary to Cindery's assertions, I really don't enjoy dealing with her. But at the same time, I reserve the right to comment civilly and constructively there, or anywhere on Wikipedia. If, as Cindery suggests, she considers my very presence on the same page as her to be "stalking" and a policy violation, regardless of the content of my contributions, then I'd suggest that the issue here is primarily Cindery's and not mine.
 * If Cindery has a problem with me, follow WP:DR. Isn't that why it exists?
 * In the meantime, further unfounded, unsupported accusations against me should be treated as personal attacks. Is this an acceptable edit anywhere, under any circumstances (much less on WP:AN/I, from an editor with a long history of disruption and personal attacks)? I'm patient, but 70+ edits calling me a "stalker" in 24 hours, without any convincing evidence, seems to me to cross a line. MastCell 01:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Strongly seconded &bull; Giving in to unfounded abusive claims of stalking is counterproductive and promotes a negative environment on Wikipedia, where if one yells loud enough people will get their way. This is in no way desirable, and should be avoided.  Cheers, ✎  Peter M Dodge  (  Talk to Me  &bull;  Neutrality Project  ) 01:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: I think the sockpuppet and Ben's diffs are evidence aplenty. But, as I state below "I avoid you; you avoid me" is perfectly acceptable, and not unilateral.-Cindery 01:43, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't have any plans to comment further at Talk:Barrington Hall--that's good. As long as you continue to have those "plans" and do not respond directly to me anywhere else, we're done here. I avoid you; you avoid me.-Cindery 01:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You don't have to avoid me; you're welcome anywhere on Wikipedia (including any page I edit) so long as you're civil and not disruptive, as everyone should be. That was my point. And as I said above, I reserve the right to comment civilly and constructively anywhere on Wikipedia. If I hear my name and the word "stalking" or "harassment" in the same sentence from you again, it should be in an WP:RfC, WP:RfM, WP:RfArb, or other form of WP:DR. Those caveats aside, like I said I have no plans to involve myself further at Talk:Barrington Hall, so hopefully we're done here. MastCell 01:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The first 2 steps of DR are Talk and Disengage. We're doing the first, and I think we're close to agreeing to do the second.  If by "have no plans" you mean "plan not to" then yes, I think we're done.  I assume you've removed Barringon from your watchlist?  And Cindery's homepage?  Regards, Ben Aveling 02:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I've made it very clear that I want nothing to do with you, intentionally avoid you, and that the DR contact you want with me is never going to happen. If you stalk me again, I will report it to ANI again. The solution that's best for Wikipedia is: I avoid you; you avoid me. Goodbye.-Cindery 01:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Stalk you "again"? Sigh. I'll let that (presumably) final completely unsupported personal attack slide. It might demonstrate a commitment to disengagement if you changed this, but that's your call. I've said my piece above. Good night. MastCell 04:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Stay away from me. Disengage. Start by not reading my userpage.-Cindery 06:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd caution you both that if this becomes a game of "can't touch me", you're likely to both be blocked. Cheers, ✎  Peter M Dodge  (  Talk to Me  &bull;  Neutrality Project  ) 06:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

So Cindery is suggesting that it's OK to attack me on her userpage, and that if I complain about it I'm continuing to "stalk" her. Got it. "Disengagement" isn't unilateral. By the way, if any of you ever find yourselves in my shoes - if a disruptive editor with a history of settling content disputes by bullying or accusing others of "harassment", who has a personal dislike for you, comes to AN/I and starts what amounts to an attack thread, calling you a "stalker" 70+ times with the amount of "evidence" Cindery's presented here - I hope that someone steps in with a preventive block somewhere around the 20th or 30th personal attack. It's surprsingly hard to disengage unilaterally in the face of continuing attacks and abuse - especially as these things tend to acquire a certain believability through repetition, regardless of the complete lack of evidence. By the way, I apologize to the community for taking up so much space here with this. MastCell 17:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Strive to be better than disruptive users, not the same, or worse. Cheers, ✎  Peter M Dodge  (  Talk to Me  &bull;  Neutrality Project  ) 22:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this page.

Violation of recently closed ArbCom case
In the recent changes channel, I found that was moving several episodes of the series My Name Is Earl to disambiguated titles, which recently is found to violate the arbitration committee ruling on naming conventions. I originally reported to AIV, but this is something that should be posted here.— Ryūlóng ( 竜 龍 ) 09:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, and there is currently one page that I cannot move back due to the editor editting over the redirect, Stole Beer from a Golfer should be at Stole Beer From A Golfer (it seems that every episode uses capital letters in each title).— Ryūlóng ( 竜 龍 ) 09:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Were they a party to the arbitration? If not then there seems to be no reason to believe they would be aware of the situation and may indeed have been acting in good faith so diving in with a block would seem harsh. I've posted a warning to their talk page. I would guess the right place for these would actually be arbitration enforcement --pgk 09:37, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I was not aware of the arbitration case when I made the moves, and apologize for what I now see is a blatant disregard for a standing policy. I've fixed all the disambiguation changes I've made. However, the capitalization changes I've made should stand. Regardless of how the producers wish to name the episodes, Wikipedia has a Manual of Style which overrides the show's conventions. Therefore, Stole Beer from a Golfer is correct, as well as all of the other naming changes I made. Evan Reyes 21:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * There's no reason you should have been aware of the arbitration case; most editors have probably never been near an arbitration case. That's why the arbitrators cautioned admins not to enforce it in a "mechanical" fashion. Thatcher131 23:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Yarillastremenog
This user is using personal attacks and is engaged in revert war. I asked him politely several times to provide proof of the salacious pictures he is inserting in the text and as a responce I get insults like stupid and degenerate. I also challenged the validity of the salacious picture he is inserting in multiple topics on Wikipedia and would like a fair use rationale on it reviewed again. I would like to ask for administrators to intervene and protect the article until the decision on its deletion is confirmed. I would also ask that the aforementioned user be made aware of the inappropriatness of this behaviour and the language he is using. --Chuprynka 18:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Warned him about the personal attacks. I'll need someone else to look at the images - I can't do it now. | Mr. Darcy talk 19:19, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Chuprynka started the personal attacks [here] by claiming I was 'avid viewer of pornography' that is a totally unfounded allegation posted in response to the source of the documentary video which as these links show [] and [] is NOT a pornography movie. I ask you to warn the user to make make personal attacks in this manner. --Yarillastremenog 19:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Follow-up: Yarillastremenog made a legal threat on his talk page, and I have blocked him 24h and pointed him to WP:LEGAL. | Mr. Darcy talk 20:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think calling someone an "avid viewer of pornography" is a personal attack, even if it is a few points shy of civility, compared to saying someone is "obviously too stupid" to understand something, which is clearly one. JuJube 22:28, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I would ask administrators again to protect the page I mentioned from edits until the decision on its future has been made. The revert war around it still rages on, it is very disruptive. I also hope that the questions about the picture I raised above will be adressed in due time. Thank you.--Chuprynka 22:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Improper article for deletion protocol used by SuganthinifromJaffna
This user, as can be simply seen from his contributions is tagging multiple pages for deletion, without putting a pointer into AfD, aseveral times even puttinjg in his "deletion" vote into an already closed but kept AfD. Maybe someone should talk to him and explain to him the correct process for AfD on an article?

A brand new user who's edits consist of AFDing articles? WP:AGF doesn't mean we stick our heads up our arses right? --Fredrick day 20:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Correct, I'M just totally unsure what kind of intervention is needed here. Help from an experienced admin would be appreciated.--Ramdrake 20:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks to me like it must be some user who knows how articles are deleted, i.e a sock of some existent user. I would keep an eye out for any existing user who consistently votes in favor of his deletions and open a WP:SSP case on him then. Eli Falk 20:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * What about the fact I see none of his Ad listed in WP:AfD. That's a major concern to me?--Ramdrake 20:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * All AFD's created by the user were deleted by me, Race and intelligence AFD was kept. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 21:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, the R&I AfD was removed as well by User:Mytwocents--Ramdrake 21:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Race and intelligence (explanations) looks eminently AfD-worthy, in fact. Is it a PoV fork, or is there some other reason for such a peculiar article? --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 00:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

User: 70.134.225.98
he/she has vandelised the siamese cat page again after it was reverted last time, i though i should reported here.

You should probably post that on. This is more for long-time troublemakers. HalfShadow 23:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Blocked ip editing from other ips in same domain
An anonymous ip has been stalking my edits and warring across several articles. His vandalisms earned him a block. . One issue also is that I have been attacked similarly before by another ip from what looks like the same domain system.

http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/whois.ch?ip=87.74.34.17 http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/whois.ch?ip=87.74.49.93

This attack is similar in tone and content to that old one for which he is blocked. Now, another ip from the same domain is making attacks against me of the exact same nature, evading the block Rumpelstiltskin223 00:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Racial percentages of Sean Paul
A line continues to be removed from a Sean Paul article relating to his racial percentages. The line in question is "Racially, this means that Sean Paul is 62.5% White, 25% Chinese and 12.5% Black". This is based on testimony which is already shown in the article. However, I calculated the percentages and posted them, because it is in general easier to understand. Since many users will be going to the Sean Paul article specifically to find out about his racial background, this information is important. The user Guettarda has removed it, stating that it is original research. However, in my opinion, this is not original research, but a simple math calculation that anyone could perform in their head. The only difference is, this makes it easier for readers who are less math-saavy than I am. I have once again replaced the line, but I informed Guettarda that I would report the issue to administration to find out what should really be done. Rhythmnation2004 14:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If it's not original research then you will be able to cite a reliable secondary source which says precisely this. Otherwise, it is original research. Quite why anyone would care about these percentages is an exercise left to the reader. Guy (Help!) 15:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Have you tried WP:DR? What administrators abilities are you looking for? I find Third opinion is a great venue for such things. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 15:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Apart from the issue of what value it adds to the article, the "percentages" (to 0.5%!) really are not supported by the source - "mixed black and white" does not necessarily mean half and half, while "Portuguese descent" does not mean pure Portuguese, especially since he claims descent from Solomon, making the family Portuguese Jews (like many in the Caribbean) - after 500 years in the Caribbean, the default assumption is that these people are mixed, not that they are unmixed. So the "percentages" are not in keeping with the available information - the info is too vague. Guettarda 15:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Generally, when a person says they are "mixed black and white", that usually means that it's half and half. It's not as if Sean Paul is perfect when it comes to the English language. He speaks the typical lingo of Jamaicans, who always consider "mixed black and white" to equal half Black and half White. And Portuguese Jews are white - since when are Jews a separate race? That's a little bit Hitler-ish, if you ask me.Rhythmnation2004 15:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Please continue this on the talk page of the article in question or take it to dispute resolution. This is not the forum for this sort of thing.-Localzuk(talk) 15:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Even if you're 100% correct, articles can only include information that's verifiable, not based on facts that might "generally" be true. SuperMachine 15:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflicts) #1, this is a content dispute and doesn't belong here. #2, without a clear-cut source, this constitutes original research. #3, "race" is an extremely fuzzy concept (which many people don't realize) and calculating the exact percentage of one's racial affiliations is laughable to me. #4, why would the average reader care? Grand  master  ka  15:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * And #5: implying and insinuating that another way of thinking is "a little bit Hitler-ish" is absurd. Please leave such rhetoric out of this. Wikipedia is not a chat room. A  ecis Bravado 15:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I would point out that this editor seems to have a thing for original research and then making uncalled for comments when he does not get his way. I to the editor would suggest that you study wikipedia policy a bit more closely, especially [WP:AGF] when interacting with admins and other editors. Especially if you plan to take a 4th run at RFA. --Fredrick day 16:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I hadn't seen that. Slightly odd considering I'm neither adminned nor a crazed Michael Jackson fan, but I won't hold it against him. Trebor 19:29, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

As others have said, this is not the place for this discussion. However, seeing as it's here: Giving percentages to 0.5% is false precision. I doubt anyone is the world is 100% one race (I don't think race is well defined enough, for a start), so the chances of anyone being 50/50 between two races is pretty much 0. It's much better just to state the approximate races of his ancestors and let the reader decide how to interpret it. I don't think it is really original research though, it's just misrepresentation of verifiable facts. --Tango 16:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Indeed, as a recent channel 4 show indicated (anyone remember the one I'm on about - they genetically tested various people), even if you know your family tree back - 6 or 7 generations, your ethnic mix is far more complex than that. It's a nonsense to come up with such numbers. --Fredrick day 16:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * To Tango, it is original research as he is taking the vague descriptions of the persons racial heritage and drawing his own conclusions from them - namely the figures. -Localzuk(talk) 19:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There was no intention to interpret the facts. The editor sincerely thought that was what the sources said, and was simply representing those facts incorrectly. It was bad research (which is excusable - being able to fix people's mistakes is what makes wikis so great), not original research. --Tango 00:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify - I was not saying that Jews aren't white (although in the English-speaking Caribbean Portuguese weren't "real white", which is why they tended to intermarry with the light-skinned mixed lower middle class, rather than the white upper class descendent from the plantocracy or the upper middle class originating from the English civil servants). I'm saying that Portuguese Jews were expelled almost 500 years ago, and that after being in the Caribbean for 500 years a lot of them would have intermarried. With respect to "mixed black and white", this means just that, mixed. In the English-speaking Caribbean we have families who have been mixed for 200 years, and have continued to marry mixed people. They had their origins not only in slavery, but also in the "poor whites" (mostly Scots and Irish indentured labourers who were sent to the Caribbean in the 1600s and 1700s (see redlegs for the Bajans), who often intermarried with the mixed lower middle class). So to say someone is "mixed black and white" says nothing about the proportion of each race; there is no reason to take it as "half and half". Guettarda 19:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Sarenne

 * has been warned more then 4 times and has continued to disrupt articles on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Planetary Chaos (talk • contribs) 23:33, 21 January 2007
 * Those warnings are all from you over an issue that is not vandalism, and on which there is a live discussion. Please settle your disputes through talk page discussions. | Mr. Darcy talk 23:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Put shortly for others reading this: The issue here is using SI prefixes in articles where our sources quantify numbers using binary prefixes.  I believe that WP:NPOV and WP:V will always override MOS guidelines.  The MOS says that converting from binary to SI in articles fine, but I'm of the opinion that doing so where our sources are explicit in using another format is decidedly not fine.  Wikipedians don't usually have the leeway to restate what a reliable source says with different units of measure, just because some people prefer that measurement.  Apple (and publications who report on them) almost never use SI... as a result, neither should we.


 * Sarenne's edits have now been reverted by no less than five different established editors, and yet this single-purpose account still insists on pushing changes on a wide number of articles (though limited in scope almost exclusively to Apple consumer hardware articles). They're claiming "consensus" by pointing to a discussion from a year and a half ago, but if this many editors are reverting their changes, then this mission of theirs needs to be put on hold, and discussions need to happen BEFORE wide-ranging changes are made.


 * Sarenne's talk page is not the appropriate venue for this discussion. I've started a discussion on the issue of SI prefixes here, and I hope people with an interest will participate. -/- Warren 00:39, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Warren, that seems like a reasonable course of action. | Mr. Darcy talk 00:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Impersonation of Hamsacharya dan redux
The user previously impersonating Hamsacharya dan as is back, this time as. He's also incompletely nominated for deletion. I think this article has survived AfD twice. Either the nomination should be reversed as done by an impersonator, or completed. Up to the admin answering this, I guess. A Ramachandran 00:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm going to report this to Requests for comment/User names as a problem username, which doesn't fully address the problems you've noted, but may jumpstart the process of getting the account blocked. -- John Broughton  |  (♫♫) 02:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. You may also want to take a look at Suspected sock puppets/NoToFrauds, as there's a history behind this... A Ramachandran 02:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

NLP update – Incivility, argumentative editing and COI – Some positive improvements though
Hello all. Further to the previous notifications on the NLP article  : The most constructive effort now seems to me to be the encouragement of a civil atmosphere that allows editors of different viewpoints to get along  and to present an article that includes all relevant views “presented in a balanced manner and that each is summarized as if by its proponents to their best ability.”. There are some problems remaining:


 * Despite being reminded of the importance of civility for constructive editing - some editors (possibly the same one) are continuing to be uncivil by demanding blocks in edit summaries ( (under “serious examples”))


 * Editors ignoring suggestions to civilly discuss edits (diffs as above)


 * Some editors (possibly the same one) persistently restoring argumentative phrasing


 * Editor trying to marginalize (ignore) critical discussion by using spacing


 * Continued obscuring of relevant science views eg

On the positive side:


 * Editors have stopped actually removing critical discussion from the talkpage:


 * Concerning evidence for sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry: Some editors are editing using predominantly single use accounts   :  The recent COI issues on the article are perhaps more important  considering the cultic issues inherent in the subject. Apart from this I see no evidence of any sockpuppeting actually going on in the article.


 * There has been some compliance with Cleanuptaskforce suggestions. Also - though they do tend to try to marginalize critical suggestions critical influence shows some effect and there is a delayed positive response towards some of those suggestions afterwards.

Overall things are slowly moving forward. Civility is clearly very important on Wikipedia (as I see it in a nutshell - to “Participate in a respectful and civil way. Do not ignore the positions and conclusions of others. Try to discourage others from being uncivil, and be careful to avoid offending people unintentionally) and especially for articles such as the NLP article. None of the other articles I edit on have editors who persistently restore argumentative phrasing (WP words to avoid) into the text. It seems to me that as long as civility is properly adopted and reasonably maintained though - then all relevant views can be fairly presented and constructive article proceedings can be maintained long term. Again - if I inadvertently make any suggestion or action that is not constructive then I would be grateful if an admin could point it out here or on my talkpage. Thank you AlanBarnet 07:18, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks like the article has been trimmed down considerably, which is major progress. When I was a mentor on that article, it was ridiculously large. Good work! --WoohookittyWoohoo! 08:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the encouragement Woohookitty. Yes there's definitely room to make the whole article more concise in criticisms and in the general presentation of the subject. Redundancy can be reduced and the style can be made more encyclopedic. Moving forward. AlanBarnet 08:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Woohookitty for some positive remarks. As for AlanBarnet, the reason why he is sidelined and/or ignored by all the other regular editors is that they are all of the view that he is a sockpuppet of Long Term Abuser HeadleyDown and therefore attempts to negotiate/discuss civilly or compromise with him are a pointless waste of time. Several of these editors lived through the previous mediation/arbitration marathon and therefore have experience of this. The major improvements in accuracy of citations and quotations took place in the teeth of his interference and major improvements in trimming have taken place since all editors agreed to ignore AlanBarnet as a sockpuppet of HeadleyDown thus enabling some constructive work to be done.Fainites 18:00, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello Fainites. This is a good opporunity for you to try to get along with editors who hold different views from you. Some infrequent editors on the article seem to be in agreement with me concerning the need for civil discussion.. However, the prior assessments  : indicate that you seem to be part of a domimating group who encourages COI editing and the promotional obscuring of views. You seem quite resistant to reasonable admin suggestions . According to policies on sockpuppetry  the dominating group in this case could possibly be considered meatpuppets when following the same NPOV non-compliance and can all be considered the same editor when voting about other editors. I'm not particularly interested in banning COI editors or rooting out all possible meatpuppets though - and I'm sure admin will deal with any sockpuppetry. The main solution is to encourage editors to get along civilly so they can present all relevant views in concise form without obscuring the most relevant. I believe that above all - admin suggestions and scrutiny have been helpful in improving the NLP article and I'll continue to make helpful notifications to encourage civility and constructive editing for as long as its needed.  I believe its inevitable that at some time you will have to show that you can get along with editors of different views. For the sake of civil discussion and a balanced article of course - the sooner the better. AlanBarnet 05:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * AlanBarnet is viewed by six independent regular editors      as a bannable sockpuppet of long-term abuser HeadleyDown. This is AlanBarnet's 4th effort gaming WP:AN/I    -- and his message is again overflowing with sugar-coated bait, arbitrary diffs, and flat-out lies. No-one has corroborated any of his stories and lies -- ever. The current success of the NLP article is due exclusively to all other editors indepedently deciding to ignore AlanBarnet completely -- enabling them to discuss and debate issues with sincerity. Even without an ear on the NLP talk page, AlanBarnet has nonetheless persisted in trolling both there and here. Please check out AlanBarnets talk page and you'll see his conflicts began with his arrival at wikipedia and have continued up to this date. Please, can an admin please review this situation? 58.178.97.116 05:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi 58. I am not gaming anyone. I have shown commitment to civility and that will continue in cooperation with admin. I believe my discussion behavior complies with how a Wikipedian should communicate on Wikipedia and follows how other admin communicate. Criticising it probably doesn't help. I believe my userpage is full of undue harassment towards me and shows a particular group's pressure to stifle criticism. If anything it shows that the more pressure I get - the more civil I become. I hope to encourage this civility reaction in others long term on the NLP article and all the other articles I am editing on. Feel free to join. AlanBarnet 14:28, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I just want to add a quick note. It has been a pleasure collaborating with 58.* and Fainites. I believe these editors tend to be on the healthy skeptical side. Together we are working on NPOV. We have systematically worked through the entire article to checking facts and references. It has come a long way on the road to become a wikipedia feature article standard. We want to promote an atmosphere in the article and discussion so that more experienced wikipedians are willing to weigh in. --Comaze 12:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello Comaze. Judging by the past notices there is a dominating group on the NLP article (and there are COI issues) who tend to obscure relevant views for the purpose of promotion. Just yesterday Fainites and 58 added defensive writing to the lead section dressed up as criticism. The Cleanuptaskforce just asked for less defensive writing from proponents yet it was added as if its criticism. Criticism has been obscured. The science fact is that NLP is unsupported. The main criticism and concern is that NLP is pseudoscientfic and there are concerns about it being promoted as a therapy in self development and in HRM. Its fairly clear that as a group there is no substantial skepticism. It took a lot of work and even scrutiny from this ANI to make the basic fact present on the article (unsupported). The obvious solution: If more experienced Wikipedians are to be encouraged to edit there then it would help if you as a group would show that you can get on with editors who hold diffent views and who want to report straight. AlanBarnet 14:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Absolute nonsense.Fainites 16:11, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Fainites. Professor Devilly appeared on the talkpage a while back and said he held NLP as an archetypal pseudoscience . His paper also supports the view that NLP is a pseudoscience. Professor Drenth (1999) and others call it pseudoscientific.  Its discussed in books about mind myths and pseudoscience and the main reason for mentioning it is because it is promoted in fringe psychotherapy - pop psychology and human resource management. Editors have persistently been suppressing that information in the lead section eg . I'm glad to see that the incivil edit summary has been omitted though. Now in order to be properly civil it is necessary to discuss with all editors whatever their view. I believe most here would deem that to be in the spirit of constructive editing on Wikipedia. AlanBarnet 04:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I put in accurate quotations from Drenth 1999 and 2003 and also verified Devilly. Comaze was the one who invited Devilly to comment. I also corrected the references and citations and quotations from Lilienfield, another scientist who calls NLP a pseudoscience, also the other scientists who call it 'neuromythology' and the like. AlanBarnet does none of this work yet he accuses me of being part of a pro-NLP group. Alan Barnets main contribution to the article is false quotes and references and misleading summaries, eg a completely untrue entry, not mentioned in the edit summary, that three reputable scientists called NLP a cult. Do not be misled by the sugary, pseudocivil admin notices. There are miles and miles of the same misleading nonsense on the talkpage. all ignored. Fainites 17:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Persistent trolling by User:193.219.28.146 on Talk:Ass to mouth - 3RR violation?
I submitted a 3RR violation report concerning anonymous User:193.219.28.146 persistent re-adding an unconstructive and inflammatory comment to Talk:Ass to mouth, because he objects to the existence of the article rather than suggesting improvements (the article recently survived an AfD). His comment has been removed by 5 different editors (including one admin) over the past few days, and the anon editor has recently re-posted the comment a 6th time today. He has been warned multiple times, and claims on his talk page that (a) his talk page comments are meant to improve Wikipedia; (b) he is not doing any reverting, others are reverting him and they shouldn't be deleting talk page edits; and (c) there isn't a precedent for reporting 3RR violations on a talk page.

My question is, is this appropriately reportable as a 3RR violation, or is there a better place to report persistent trolling? Details of the incident are documented in my 3RR report at Administrators' noticeboard/3RR. If there is a better place to report it, please let me know. =Axlq 00:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You're within your rights to remove the comment (within 3RR), but my advice would be to leave the comment in place and answer him. Or leave the comment in place and ignore him.  He's wrong, but he's within his rights to ask the question, so long as he doesn't 3RR.  Regards, Ben Aveling 00:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict) With all due respect, I agree with the anon - not about the substance of his comment, but about the fact that you shouldn't be deleting a reasonably civil talk page comment. He writes that this article is one of the differences between the Wikipedia and Britannica. Well, in that, he is absolutely correct. I personally believe that makes us more useful, but that's just an opinion. In any case, it is less disruptive to just let it stand. Trying to delete those three lines of text has already wasted ten times the effort of writing them. AnonEMouse (squeak) 00:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Second this. Viridae Talk 00:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Not me. He was answered repeatedly on his talk page, civilly. =Axlq
 * I had blocked the IP for 24hr for disruption, and then saw this (and then 3RR). Feel free to alter the block. Thanks/wangi 00:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Endorse block. Endorse the anon's right to ask the question again after the block expires.  Regards, Ben Aveling 00:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * What question? He didn't ask any. He posted a comment about how articles like this devalue Wikipedia. =Axlq 00:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If someone repeatedly places the same message on some one's talk page that they have acknowledged (deleting a message is the same as acknoledging that you read it) then it becomes harassment and incivility. The only time you should -ever- force a message to stay on a page is if a user is currently acting to vandalise the pedia and an easily accessible log needs to be there for a WP:AIV note. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 02:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That is kinda irrelevant - we have been removing a trolling comment from an article that has had a lot of scrutiny recently. The comment is completely non-constructive and its removal is in line with WP:TALK (ie. the second sentence, namely 'Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views.') Also, as I have stated elsewhere, 4 editors agree that his comment is inappropriate for that talk page and have removed it.
 * I disagree with the earlier editor who said it is wasted time removing them. If they stay it leads to other users adding similar comments which are also pointless (for example just prior to this silly incident there was another anon who went on a bit of a rant about it being anti-christian). Keeping a talk page tidy and on topic is just as important as actually working on the article in my opinion.-Localzuk(talk) 12:29, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

This issue has restarted. I removed the comment (and that of a supporter as it would have been redundant without the thread opener). It has been reverted again. Can this talk page be semi-protected to avoid this? Also, the block imposed seems to have no deterrent effect. Malla nox  01:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Not only has the issue restarted, but the anon editor has already violated 3RR yet again -- and has promised to keep doing so on his talk page. =Axlq 05:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Siokan
This user is totally denied the cleanup in the few articles, Special:Contributions/Siokan. Few days ago, i make the cleanup in few articles for Asian football competitions with the appropriate Manuel of Style. However, in this days, this user are reverted my cleanup with unapproprate reason "degrading a page" without remark my cleanup editing. With the account just create in this New Year, i believe that he is not read the Manuel of Style of Wikipedia and even not browse any examples as references to editing he articles, while like to edit with his style. I hope admin can resolve this problem. Thank you.


 * I having talk to him regarding my cleanup editing, he seems arrogantly denied it and not accepting my cleanup. --Aleen f 1 16:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll have a word with him. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 18:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, the work was reverted back to old version. However, this time is from Special:Contributions/210.253.171.2. I suspect it is a same user to do it. Please help me again. And i won't revert back to cleanup version until problem resolve. Thank you. --Aleen f 1 05:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Help me!!
I tagged an article for a speedy delete. Mike_Gaun and an editor of the page. This wikipedian User:Ncole vandalized my talk page and removed ALL of my tags on the Mike_Gaun page. In my mind, this requires and immediate ban. The article Mike_Gaun is a memorial not wiki content. Admin needed! Thx --Zrulli 02:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Calmness, calmness. No, it doesn't require an immediate ban (although continuing behavior of the same type might result in a block, which is notably different from a ban). The page has been deleted. Don't worry. Yuser31415 04:11, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

"United Front Against Deletion"
User:Criscokoenig seems to be quite intent on making a WP:POINT, after his autobiography was flagged for deletion. See, , and many other similar edits. Seraphimblade 03:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It appears that this user has just been blocked for 24 hours. -- moe.RON   Let's talk  03:43, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * He was blocked for 24 hours only? I would have indef-blocked as a vandalism-only account. --210 physicq  ( c ) 03:43, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Changed the block to indefinite. I was wondering that myself - 24 hours seems way too lenient in this case, especially as the user in question has no good-faith edits aside from creating the page that ended up getting deleted. --Core desat  03:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I blocked 24h to stop his spree, but wanted to scroll through the contribs before an indef-block to make sure there weren't legit edits in there. If we're comfortable that this isn't a regular editor who just went off his rocker, I have no objection to the indef. | Mr. Darcy talk 03:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I just got an e-mail from the user claiming that his original intent was not to vandalize (but to edit Will & Grace-related and other articles), and he agrees with the 24-hour block and not the indefinite one. I'm going to AGF and reduce his block to the 24 hours. His edits should be monitored when he returns. --Core desat  04:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure, why not. But one chance only. --210 physicq  ( c ) 04:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Edit war and likely sockpuppetry at Shinigami (Bleach)
An edit war has been ongoing between and, both of whom have reverted four times in today. I only chose not to report them at WP:AN3RR because neither had been warned. Now, is making the exact same reverts as the anonymous, which makes me suspect sockpuppetry. I have reported this here because I'm uncertain exactly what to do in this case: if this is worth taking to Checkuser or if it can be handled without this. Heimstern Läufer 03:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

New sockpuppet
The latest sock, who is vandalizing RFCU requests. An RFCU was filed against some folks who AD doesn't like, and when they were proven to not be socks or puppetmasters, he began attempting to re-add more and more to the RFCU (in spite of Essjay telling him that the evidence had already been reviewed). .

The Art Dominique sock insists on trolling this RFCU, re-adding info that has already been checked. .



The "Virtual Realities" is pretty clearly an Art Dominique sock, based on AD naming conventions, the consistency of huge, tedious piles of misinformation, and continuous trolling and stalking of, and. TheQuandry 04:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

In lieu of WP:PAIN…
…I would like my fellow administrators' opinions as to the acceptability of the following edits. Am I being a bit too sensitive, or is this a tad over the line?

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Jakew&curid=8980070&diff=102367812&oldid=102366949 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:TipPt&curid=4554553&diff=102366338&oldid=102245504

-- Avi 04:39, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * He pretty much invited that by saying "So why is it bad that I am this person?" -Amark moo! 04:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Anyway, to answer the question, I think that's not really crossing the line. Rude, yes, but not really over the line. -Amark moo! 04:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Calling someone a troll and a "circumfetishist" (learn something new every day) in their AfD isn't very cool in my book. Especially when it's being done based on Google results rather than on-wiki activity.  I think it does cross the line into PA territory, but I can sorta see it being interpreted either way.  Sorta.  —bbatsell  ¿?  04:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's highly questionable if the someone is spotless in terms of on-wiki record. But as some of the opposes on that RfA show, he is not. -Amark moo! 05:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying that he doesn't have the right to bring up off-wiki events; it's up to individual !voters to determine whether that holds any water with them. My main issue is with the uncivil tone with which it is written and the name-calling.  —bbatsell  ¿?  05:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Revert such edits on sight per policy WP:CIVIL and warn the user suitably. Yuser31415 05:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) I have to say I look askance at critical mentions of the off-wiki activity of fellow editors unless it 1) violates WP:COI and/or WP:AUTO, or 2) involves off-wiki activity specifically designed to disrupt WP (and even there, caution would be advisable). I don't see evidence of Jakew disrupting WP, so the comments would seem to violate WP:CIV, at the very least. IronDuke  05:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Controversial 3RR violation
This IP has violated WP:EW on article Ateneo School of Law. However, I'm not sure exactly what motives the user has for doing so; but since my attempt at conversation has been ignored, I'd be tempted to treat such edits as spam, blanking, or vandalism. I request third party input in this case. Yuser31415 05:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I've made a fourth revert to the article; after both a 'spam4' and '3RR' warnings, followed by a legitimate request for civil conversation, I can only assume the editor is acting in bad faith. Yuser31415 05:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * (S)he's just explained his/her reason in the ES. Wait a minute while I look into this ... Yuser31415 05:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)