Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive248

Daviiid & Landev operating as Sockpuppets of blocked user Davnel03 (aka Neldav)
Daviid and Landev are sockpuppets of the block user Davnel03 (also operated the now blocked sockpuppet account Neldav. He has admitted these are his accounts here and is using at least one of them to make disruptive edits. Can an administrator block both these accounts asap. AlexJ 12:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Request
Will an admin with an established non-admin account please email me? I want to test something. I'm afraid it might be very important. Mango juice talk 14:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Will do. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Mike Ashley (businessman)
The wiki entry for Mike Ashley (businessman)is being vandalised quite heavily : you may want to lock it down. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.72.110.12 (talk • contribs).


 * The page has been protected by Alphachimp; thanks for bringing it up for attention. Doc  Tropics  14:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Large scale scandal: Group of admins abuse authority to protect ciber criminals
Group of admins closed this disruption and trolling mixed w/ WP:LEGAL nonsense w/ authority to protect wikipedia from ciber stalkers. --  FayssalF - Wiki me up®  16:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Trojan Horse Virus stealing passwords and codes launched from WP Sandbox – WP Users safety compromised – Wikipedia security concept flawed
 * Complicity of left wing Bullies: allowed to monopolise economics pages – Thousands of tilels vandalised – WP neutrality compromised.
 * Extreme left users like User:El_C... openly claim discretion over the WP blocking policy on the administrators notice board.
 * False accusations spread over tens of talk pages. Abuse of Wikipedia credability to damage reputation of adversaries in google searches - WP trustworthiness compromised
 * Qualified intimidation of disliked newcomers – Users privacy disclosed – Hundreds of bona fide contributors scared away
 * Large scale cover-up operations – systhematic vandalism on talk pages.
 * User:Advocates-For-Free-Speech unveil scandal, get silenced and indefinately blocked
 * Call on bona fide admins to intervene and stop criminal gang taking over key admin positions and WP content
 * Call on bona fide admins to intervene and stop criminal gang taking over key admin positions and WP content

--Advocates Defending Free Speech 15:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, this just isn't convincing without more capital letters. Friday (talk) 15:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Welcome to the board. Is this a kind of trolling? -- FayssalF  - Wiki me up®  15:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Doesn't this user constitute some sort of legal threat? There are official advocacies that users can use. I would think that this user, and any users they are "defending" in a "legal case" should be blocked per WP:LEGAL. Wikipedia is not a "free speech zone", it's an encyclopedia. Want free speech? Go start your own blog. They're free. - Crockspot 15:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It's a group account and banned-user sockpuppet .  --Dynaflow   babble  15:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd have speedily archived this, but it is so funny I decided to leave it for a bit :-) Guy (Help!) 15:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I needed a chuckle today. This is just the thing. KillerChihuahua?!? 15:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The parrot is particularly entertaining. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * ROFL at title of this thread. WjBscribe 15:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Excuse me, can all bone fide admins line up over here, please? Rouge admins will have to leave the room while we talk ;) - A l is o n  ☺ 15:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * His links return error messages. They've obviously been oversighted by the Cabal. ;-) ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 16:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

66.99.250.130 attempting to harass a third party
This edit to Charles contains a supposed phone number. It might be best to remove this from the database.--Ray Chason 15:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Ask over at Requests for Oversight. Mr.Z-man  talk ¢ 16:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Quinnling & Ahmoi

 * likely sock of Quinnling only edit was to vandalize Ahmoi using the exact text that Quinnling had been using.
 * Quinnling was involved in a 3 month long content dispute that degenerated into a vandalism spree on Ahmoi. I attempted to engage him in a dialog to create a useful article, but he ignored me & continued with his vandalism. Eventually, the page was deleted, as it was about an unremarkable website. (log entries below). Prior to today, I had warned this user up to uw-vandalism4. Today, this user recreated the page with the content he had been using to vandalize the page. I'm not sure what, if anything should be done here, all but one of Quinnling's edits have been to Ahmoi, and based on information in the article history & the username of the other party, I believe the whole situation started out as a content dispute with an individual who had a COI as one of the site owners. I leave this in your capable hands :)
 * Quinnling was involved in a 3 month long content dispute that degenerated into a vandalism spree on Ahmoi. I attempted to engage him in a dialog to create a useful article, but he ignored me & continued with his vandalism. Eventually, the page was deleted, as it was about an unremarkable website. (log entries below). Prior to today, I had warned this user up to uw-vandalism4. Today, this user recreated the page with the content he had been using to vandalize the page. I'm not sure what, if anything should be done here, all but one of Quinnling's edits have been to Ahmoi, and based on information in the article history & the username of the other party, I believe the whole situation started out as a content dispute with an individual who had a COI as one of the site owners. I leave this in your capable hands :)

--Versageek 16:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 03:52, 21 May 2007 Mark (Talk | contribs) deleted "Ahmoi" (Speedy deletion CSD A7 - Unremarkable website. Article does not does not assert the importance or significance of its subject.)
 * (diff) (hist) . . N Ahmoi?; 15:33 . . (+782) . . Quinnling (Talk | contribs) (?Created page with '{Orphan|date=August 2006} http://www.Fuck_ahmoi.com Ahmoi is an Online Adult Community in Malaysia. It is the first online adult friends portal ...')
 * (diff) (hist) . . m Ahmoi?; 15:40 . . (+12) . . HeirloomGardener (Talk | contribs) (Requesting speedy deletion (CSD g11). using TW)
 * 15:43, 23 May 2007 Anthony Appleyard (Talk | contribs) deleted "Ahmoi" (content was: '{db-spam}{Orphan|date=August 2006} http://www.Fuck_ahmoi.com Ahmoi is an Online Adult Community in Malaysia. It is the first on...')


 * Given that the article has been re-created in its promotional state and speedily deleted twice in the past week, I've salted it to prevent its re-re-recreation. Since all of the accounts' edits have been to that article, I think that will solve the problem. If not, let me know. Thoughts on the appropriateness of this solution? MastCell Talk 16:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Potential violations of WP:CITE at Khmelnytsky Uprising
I'm having some difficulty dealing with a couple of editors at Khmelnytsky Uprising regarding the number of Jewish casualties in the uprising. In the past there have been serious issues with these editors of insertion of unsourced original research, a generally belligerent refusal to provide citations, and in some cases blatantly false attributions (for example this sentence: Paul Robert Magocsi estimates that the casualty rate was 50%, out of a total Jewish population of 60,000. - I checked the source, and could find no such claims). In the past few hours one of the editors there, User:Galassi, has inserted claims based on a series of articles he has listed in the article itself. Aside from being extremely poorly written (we don't list sources like that in the body of an article), it is quite clear from the Talk: page that this is merely a list of "better" sources that a "professional historian" has sent him, with no indication that Galassi himself has actually read what they say. I've asked him to provide specific page numbers in the text backing up his claims, and to quote them, but he has refused several times. His latest statement is that he can provide citations after he gets "home", an 11 hour plane flight. He's been saying the same for several days, but it's unclear when he will actually ever get "home" and read the sources he insists on citing anyway.

I myself have provided citations for casualties from approximately two dozen different sources, and I've quoted every one of them. He's been quite belligerent about the sources I've used, describing people like Sir Martin Gilbert as "unscrupulous journalists". Now, Galassi has decided to separate the information I have provided from the information he prefers, insisting "his" sources must go in a "Modern estimates" section, and mine in an "Earlier estimates" section he has created. I've pointed out that many of my sources are from 2002-2004, while one of his major sources is from 1988, but this has had no impact on him. In addition, he has made it clear that any work I do must go in "my" section, and that only he and User:Piotrus are allowed to add information to his "Modern" section.

The discussion can be found here: Talk:Khmelnytsky_Uprising Jayjg (talk) 16:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Jayjg's summary of the situation completely. In fact, not only are they inserting their OR and poor sources, Piotrus and Galassi are tag-teaming him order to do it. I can anticipate the objection that WP:CITE isn't too serious because it's "just a guideline" but I consider it to be a serious violation of WP:V, and I've never see it "broken" for anything other than pov-pushing and/or original research. &lt;&lt;-armon-&gt;&gt; 23:13, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Not only is Jayjg’s summary accurate, it is modest. He has repeatedly requested the  editors conform to WP policy and guidelines, only to be met by repeated failings to do so. -Doright 16:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I had a look at the page, and I agree as well. Musical Linguist 21:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Notice: User:Badlydrawnjeff blocked, unblocked
No specific action to be taken. The issue is being discussed and dealt w/ (part of the Requests for arbitration). --  FayssalF - Wiki me up®  22:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

See: ; Jeff was blocked by admin User:Zsinj with the stated explanation (on User talk:Tony Sidaway) of: Per approximately two hours of IRC discussion, it had been determined that the disruption caused by that user outweighed any efforts to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia. The amount of drama and all around chaos that has come as a result of his actions and the resulting actions of others caused is a disruption and an exhaustion of the community's time, as noted in the block reason. As one of many administrators, others have been in contact with the user and have taken actions that you described, such as warning the user. This issue is no longer a single admin's responsibility, nor is it the responsibility of the community as a whole. While I am not suggesting that this is elitist, it is the responsibility of all administrators, of which there has been consensus, to act when events like this occur to prevent any further damage to the project. Zsinj 02:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC) User:Gaillimh unblocked shortly afterwards.

Also this comment by User:Mackensen:.

Let's not do that again, shall we? Georgewilliamherbert 02:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. This block was a very bad idea. Mackensen said it all, really. --Deskana (talk)  02:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This "explanation" was the biggest load of bollocks I've ever read. Don't play with your buttons when you're drunk, kids! --Tony Sidaway 02:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If we throw a stick, will irc go away? Friday (talk) 02:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * IRC is a brutal double-edged sword. Sean William 02:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I will give in to the temptation just this once: What. The. Fuck? Johnleemk | Talk 02:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Lolz, so between bots flooding and people talking about Shrek 3 and the Spur's game, this decision was made. Two hours of discussion, wonderful. It would be nice if those others involved would step forward. &mdash; Michael Linnear   02:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Not that it matters in the end anyway. This is an example of why decision making on IRC is bad- it is not representative of the community's wishes. --Deskana (talk)  02:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It just doesn't seem fair to have one person take the blame for a bad group decision. &mdash; Michael Linnear   02:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems that the block rationale neglected to address the potential disruption of the block itself. Gasoline on the fire. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 02:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * On the one hand, I agree that this was horribly, horribly out of line. I don't like BDJ myself, but this was, as Johnleemk said, a real "WTF" moment. Something of this magnitude should not be done without on-wiki discussion, no matter how long the IRC discussion is.
 * On the other hand, #wikipedia-en-admins is a genuinely useful tool. I know that I've used it to get quick advice from other admins on what to do in situations where I don't feel a whole AN post is necessary. Veinor (talk to me) 02:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

This chills me considerably. I have no doubts whatsoever that Badlydrawnjeff is acting in good faith, and that any percieved disruption by him could be viewed by other editors as attempting to improve the encyclopedia. It greatly disturbs me that a block can be a result of a discussion on IRC, where not all editors have access to and which is not a valid means of gauging community support. Without being committed to either side of the ongoing dispute at the RFC, I feel compelled to comment here because of the potential far reaching effects of this action on any editor on Wikipedia who may espouse an unpopular or contentious viewpoint and attempt to use the established channels to try to resolve a dispute.--Xnuala (talk)(Review) 02:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Blocks of this nature aren't normally decided on IRC; this is the exception more than the rule. I wouldn't worry about it too much, Xnuala. BDJ is now unblocked and no harm was done in the end. --Deskana (talk)  02:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * No harm? Utterly ridiculous. --Irpen 03:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Blocking another user in the middle of being involved with a dispute with them is a HUGE no-no. If it comes out that involved parties in the dispute were responsible for this, someone ought to lose a sysop bit. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 02:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

This is rich. Absolutely friggin' rich. And people wonder why other people bitch about cabalism? There you have it. If anyone tells me to back off of this one, you may as well hold your breath. This will not stand. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Stand? It's already been undone.  It's over. Friday (talk) 02:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * There needs to be some accountability, though. Zsinj was obviously not the only one behind this decision, but IRC doesn't have public logs to tell us who else was. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 02:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Bull shit it's over. Who are the guilty parties? When are they stepping down? This is unacceptable. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflictrs galore) Johnleemk said it all. The only explanation that makes the slightest bit of sense is that somehow Zsinj confused BDJ with User:Gordon Watts. Not being privy to IRC, this is only a wild guess. Raymond Arritt 02:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That had better be the issue. The timelines don't add up, though, because I was around when the Watts stuff went down.  This was over a 90 minute period I wasn't at my computer - how convenient. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I understand that this is very annoying for you Jeff, I can understand why you're pissed, but I think you need to cool off a bit. Adding that note to WP:RfAr was a good call; just wait and see what ArbCom have to say. --Deskana (talk)  02:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * So many edit conflicts, this one comes late, but I fully support Deskana. BDJ, you are furious, but let the formal dispute resolution channels to work. -- ReyBrujo 03:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * As long as it works, I'll be fine. --badlydrawnjeff talk 03:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The IRC channel is a way for admins to communicate with some other admins. It is sometimes used to bring attention to vandals who should be blocked, pages needing attention, etc. In this way, it is used by some admins to help decide what their own individual actions to things should be. IRC discussions should never be said to result in a "consensus of admins" or anything of that sort, though. If you do something based upon discussions on IRC, you're doing so as an individual admin. - Mark 02:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

This is utterly disturbing to me. I see no specific misconduct being alleged, not even the hint of a warning on badlydrawnjeff's talk page. Somebody should get a warning themselves. I may be concerned that Jeff's getting a tad overzealous, but there is no call for the response of a block at all. I hope whoever is involved is deeply ashamed of this behavior. And while I hope Jeff is strong enough to just accept an apology for this misconduct, I can completely understand that he's probably going to be justifiably pissed at this kind of behavior. FrozenPurpleCube 02:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * (ec) Ah, nothing better than agreeing to block someone through IRC: nobody can defend the user, the logs can't be made public, and it makes you feel better. Mwhahaha! Now, my ear is itching... Unblock should have stated something more than "inappropriate", though. -- ReyBrujo 02:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yup. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, having pulled my periodically confounded senses together, I am really tempted to suggest that Zsinj is intentionally trolling to pour gasoline on the flames, but I'll AGF for the moment. Seriously, what the hell was he thinking? That explanation is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen on Wikipedia, and it shows a major lack of sanity on the admin's part. How the hell could anyone not see that blocking Jeff, even (especially?) for only two hours, would just cause this disruptive chaos to continue for even longer? (And as an aside, I would really like to know what on earth possessed anyone to think this is causing permanent damage to the encyclopaedia, or how they calculated the costs and benefits of Jeff's actions. Not to mention that they seriously overestimated the portion of the community which has been wasting its time on this tripe.) Johnleemk | Talk 02:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm holding my tongue very firmly right now. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Bad decisions happen folks, no need to cry out for blood. ( H ) 02:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Wrong. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well if blood is your goal, then I don't know what advice to give you. ( H ) 03:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm in the IRC channel where this was discussed right now, and I would like to say that, even before the discussion, there were multiple people saying that this is a really bad idea. Right now, the general feeling seems to be one of contrition, not aggression. We're not a bunch of dicks. Therefore, Jeff, I suggest that you not immediately go for the jugular, but just think it out. Veinor (talk to me) 03:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * no, the jugular's about the right place. This has been dealt with before through Arbcom.  Do mistakes happen?  Yes.  Do mistakes happen after two hours of discussion in an unaccountable place by a bunch of people I'm not allowed to identify?  No, they do not.  This was not a mistake.  I can forgive mistakes.  I can forget mistakes.  This was not a mistake. --badlydrawnjeff talk 03:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The point I'm trying to make is that any sort of reaction that involves getting rid of the admin IRC channel is probably a bad idea. Because do you know what else is an unaccountable, unloggable place with a bunch of people you can't identify? Real life discussions. Veinor (talk to me) 03:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * as a matter policy WP:BLOCK doesnt exclude discussion prior to a block whether it takes place here, or off site. While the discussion reached a conclusion its the responsibility of the editor who takes the action. Gnangarra 02:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Jeff, he's been roundly yelled at in public, told by Tony Sidaway not to "play with his buttons while drunk", and is unlikely to make such a mistake ever again, as is anybody else who's watching. What more do you want? -GTBacchus(talk) 03:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This was a very bad decision. I'm not sure I know what should be done, and perhaps those who are saying that nothing should be done are right, but I don't think so.  There are some really scarily naive admins.  IRC isn't much use for sanity checking if the only people watching the scrolling text at the time aren't thinking straight. --Tony Sidaway 03:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Tony, doing "nothing" stopped being an option about an hour ago. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * My suggestion is that the person responsible acknowledge their misconduct, not just get yelled at by everybody else. FrozenPurpleCube 03:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * At the very least, I want names. At most, I was full accountability through Arbcom.  Who knows if I'll get either, but i won't say I didn't see this coming. --badlydrawnjeff talk 03:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Names of whom? — Kyриx  03:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Of who's responsible. --badlydrawnjeff talk 03:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Who? The people who discussed the possibility of the block? Only the guy who pushed the button is responsible. ( H ) 03:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yup, not buying that. --badlydrawnjeff talk 03:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Jeff, a good general rule is that when you try to seek "justice" at Wikipedia, things don't go your way. I've seen it happen again and again; please learn from the mistakes of others. I value your presence here too much to watch you shoot yourself in the foot. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm doing everything properly, don't you worry. --badlydrawnjeff talk 03:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * We fucked up very badly today. I fucked up badly by not doing anything except nod my head absentmindedly. We all feel bad, and we're all sorry. Sean William 03:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Who are "we?" --badlydrawnjeff talk 03:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The people for whom I cannot speak for. Sean William 03:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Then I accept your apology on the matter, although it's still a problematic situation. Since you can't speak for the collective "we," I'll assume otherwise on the rest. --badlydrawnjeff talk 03:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Calling for blood won't be very productive at the moment, and I think we need to take a breather. I really want to know what possessed Zsinj and the IRCers who supported this move so we can determine whether this was a really bad example of a mistake made by groupthink, or whether there was an actual intent to detonate a nuke in the flaming wreck of this controversy. Then we can start determining whether we should accept an apology or call for stronger sanctions. Johnleemk | Talk 03:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

No no no no! Told you shouldn't do it, Zsinj, that it was a bad bad idea. -- drini [meta:][commons:] 04:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC) by that user outweighed any efforts to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia." when the "disruptuion" consists of legitmate compaints (whether anyone agrees with their substance or not) in legitimate fora for rasing such issues, is simply unaceptable. Thsi is doubly true when it is know that a number of other establisehd editors have joined in soem or all of the complaints, and that a RFC and an arbcomn case is in process. Even bans users are often unblocked during arbcom cases, to block someone for this sort of "disruption" during one shows very poor judgement on the part of the block, on the part of anyone who seriously advocated the balock, adn anywho who now defends the balock as 'not unreasonable" or the like. DES (talk) 16:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I just need to make my view celar: this block was outragous. i trust that other admins will remember this. It seems as if the use of IRC to determine blocks of established editors is probably a mistke. But wheter IRC is sued or not, a block defense of "it had been determined that the disruption caused

Move it to ArbCom
I think it is too obvious and needs to be moved to the arbcom page where this surely belongs. Zsinj is not the sole perpetrator of course. Those who advised him to block through IRC instead of bluntly referring him to post his thoughts here for public review are responsible. Channel's sysops under whose watch this happened are responsible. This whole mess smells so familiar. It also shows vividly that the measures undertaken by ArbCom early in the year to prevent #en-admins IRC from causing further harm to this project utterly failed. --Irpen 03:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * While a bad decision, let's not make this into more than it has to be. In the end, Jeff was blocked for less time that Zsinj will take just to read all the criticism he is getting. Let's get a sense of proportion. I'll be glad to add more criticism... :-) ... but don't think stronger action is called for unless the situation repeats. The best of us screw up, much as we try to avoid it. You know, "The best laid schemes o' mice an' men gang aft agley". Hopefully we learn each time, but we are remarkably inventive in finding new ways. As long as we do learn, and it is meant in good faith, we shouldn't be flambeed for it. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 03:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * A longtime contributor is blocked per a discussion off Wikipedia - I don't think people are taking this out of proportion, frankly. – Riana ⁂  03:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Arbcom is for when dispute resolution fails, I don't think it is even close to that. ( H ) 03:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The RfC is not going to create consensus, and anyone who thinks it can patch up the disagreement between Jeff and the others is living in a dream world. This discussion here is only creating more calls for blood. I don't think mediation would be more than a temporary stanching of the wounds. No, the Arbcom has to step in now - as I already stated on RfAr, they have to clarify whether there was disruptive wheel warring, and whether the BLP policy was used correctly. I think the Arbcom is also best placed to investigate the Zsinj incident. Johnleemk | Talk 03:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The community process failed as the user was hit by a grievous block implemented by the members of a certain segment of this community. When a bad edit is undone, it's over. When another IRC concocted block hits us the harm cannot be undone by merely unblocking. Too obvious to even explain why. Thankfully we are getting less and less of IRC influence lately but its outcome I am sure will reduce that influence further. Jeff I am sorry this hit you. --Irpen 03:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Irpen: the block was in force for a short time, has been undone, and the user in question is able to edit. The user in question is not unaware of the controvbersy his actions and attitudes attract.  The user in question does not have a clean block log, which some people prize and would be disappointed to lose.  Right now I find it hard to see what irreperable damage has been done.  This is no different to a block "concocted" on ANI, other than that the log is not publicly visible.  There are blocks "concocted" on irc all the time, most of them are comletely uncontroversial and nobody ever knows they were "concocted" on irc - and there are blocks which are averted by irc as well.  The irc channel is not some monstrous entity, it is just folks.  I have only very recently subscribed to the irc channel, I find that, far from there being a cabal of some sort, there is a lot of sense.  David Gerard, for example, is usually about and far from reluctant to point out when one is being an idiot, which helps save face and reduce controversy in the public forums.  As with any place where groups of people gather together, sometimes there can be misunderstanding, sometimes there can be a mob, sometimes there can be a collective bad call, but mostly - really, mostly - what you get is a better and more reasoned result than an admin relying solely on their own judgement.  Try it some time.  I was sceptical, but I am a convert.  Guy (Help!) 09:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I still don't get what IRC has to do with it. I was there the whole time while this was going down. Guess what, in the end it came to Zsinj's actions, nobody elses. Calling for everyone else's blood is completely irresponsible and shows that anger and emotions rather than reason and rational thinking are in use here. There were ....something like 60 users there. Gonna desysop them all? That's ridiculous. Take your anger out on Zsinj, keep it away from the rest of us. And honestly Jeff, one of the reasons that Zsinj blocked you was due to threats. While I can understand your anger, threatening statements like "If anyone tells me to back off of this one, you may as well hold your breath. This will not stand." are not helpful at all. This will be my only statement on this, if you want an answer from me ask me on my talk, I'm not going to check this here, this page is going to get too long. &rArr;   SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.
 * Clarify: Out of the 60 or so users, maybe 10 of them were active. Don't condemn the rest of them for simply being there. &rArr;    SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  03:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * If a statement of commitment to an issue is taken as a threat, I'd say that's the problem of the person reading it. Jeff's entitled to the same righteous zeal as anybody else. Given that there's no threat of explicit disruptive action or harm to another user, the best thing to do is not to overreact to it. The worst thing to do is something like a block. That will guarantee the issue will continue to be a concern, and if anything get worse. I feel (and I worry), that Jeff's probably taken this ill-guided act as vindication. FrozenPurpleCube 04:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, and IRC is an issue because that's where the blocking admin said he decided to make the block. That's a problem, and reflects a bad decision making process on the part of the blocking admin, who I hope owns up to the mistake. FrozenPurpleCube 04:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I second that. When someone presses an admin button, the responsibility is primarily theirs. That ensures that admin actions are done with the most contemplation. Future blockers should not be able to claim "I did it because X, Y, and Z told me too", because that's a lame cop-out.  If an admin can't properly decide whether other people's advice is good or bad, then adminship may not be the best thing for them.  --Interiot 04:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Veinor nailed it: many of us told Zsinj that it was a bad idea, I didn't believe however he would go and actually do it. -- drini [meta:][commons:] 04:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm going to second this, I specifically warned against group think. There were a few, not many in support of his actions. In any case I will say I never supported a block. ——  Eagle 101 Need help? 04:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I am having a hard time resisting the urge to revoke Zsinj's access to the admin's channel; his actions indicate that he lacks the necessary judgment to be a participant in that forum. Might not be a bad idea to revoke it for a time, or something, but then again, I don't really care that much.  (Not to mention I haven't been in the admin's channel in weeks.)  Kelly Martin (talk) 04:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This WTF moment is brought to you by: IRC. Internet Relay Chat: The cabal's playground for over two years. Internet Relay Chat. Expect less. Grand  master  ka  04:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Um... am I missing something here? We didn't accidentally execute BDJ. Instead, he was blocked. Wrongfully. He was unblocked. Rightfully. Zsinj was wrong. Okay... duly noted. There's no need to prepare a report to bring before the UN. --  tariq abjotu  04:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The issue people are bringing up is that it's part of a larger problem with admins deciding things badly on IRC. I'm not sure if I agree or not, but that's the concern. -Amarkov moo! 04:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I realize that (and, just for the record, I don't use IRC). However, there's no need for the same Zsinj was a dum-dum argument to be repeated over and over again. That is, unless we're trying to make WP:400 (in which case: fire away). I have no idea how to punctuate that last sentence. --  tariq abjotu  04:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I guess I just don't understand how Zsinj thought this was not going to be immediately undone, and end up biting him in the ass. How often does blocking an established contributor help a situation like this? How did (allegedly) several people lose their minds like this? Grand master  ka  04:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Did several people block him? Or did Zsinj? We report. You decide. &rArr;   SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  04:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Zsinj blocked him, others were (allegedly) dumb enough to think he might be able to get away with it. Without the logs, I can't fault anyone but Zsinj (and maybe not even after reviewing the logs.) Grand  master  ka  04:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Without the logs, I can't fault anyone but Zsinj. It's okay; BDJ is going to bring everyone responsible to justice Jack Bauer style. Soon enough. --  tariq abjotu  05:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Superman wears badlydrawnjeff pajamas. --badlydrawnjeff talk 05:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't the ArbCom case include those in IRC? And there was only one notification reported.  (SEWilco 05:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC))
 * Depends. I'd expect anybody who has the logs to at least provide them so they can look through them and observe anybody's misconduct.  As far as I'm concerned, this is hopefully just one person's mistake, and while they should account for it, from what I know right now, I'd be satisfied with just an acknowledgment of the mistake.  I sincerely hope no more than that is needed. FrozenPurpleCube 05:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Nearly 50% of the users in IRC channels are idling at any given time. I can say that I was in the channel, but I was not actively participating in the discussion at the time. There is no reason to include 50 people in any sort of arbitration case (if one gets accepted) when maybe 2 or 3 are at fault.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龍 ) 05:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Providing logs is a violation of freenode.net policy, Wikipedia IRC channels policy, and that specific IRC channels policy. There may be even bigger restrictions on the disclosure of recorded material from a private IRC channel. There was a big stink about someone leaking logs a few days ago. Releasing logs is out of the question. I should know, I got in big trouble over IRC logs, so big it sunk my first RFA. &rArr;    SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  07:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Providing logs to the public is a violation of various policies. Logs have been mailed privately to the arbcom in the past, and in all likelihood, that'll happen again in the future.  --Interiot 08:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh dear. I am not going to say too much here because I don't think it will help, but here goes anyway.  Jeff is not evil.  I repeat: Jeff is not evil.  He is a likeable guy who actually does want to help build the encyclopaedia, and has done a lot of work to that end.  Blocking him should be a matter of long deliberation, however vexatious he may occasionally be, and that deliberation should take place here.  There are other ways of halting a problem Jeff is causing, he is not (completely) immune to reason even when in the grip of one of his occasional crusades.  I don't mind the cabal (TINC) getting together on irc to get together a posse to run a bandit out of town, and I'll likely be right at the front, but not for Jeff, I really do think he's earned better than that.  Having said which, as my comments on the RFAR make clear, I do think Jeff has a problem right now.  Quite a serious one.  His vision of Wikipedia is distinctly off the community's midpoint, and he seems to be trying to change this in the wrong way, with the result that he has made many enemies and lost some friends.  Time to take a deep breath, see if the RFAR case is accepted and if not then start an RfC.  I think that Jeff may be persuaded, with patience, to adopt a different and more helpful approach.  I don't think we need to run him out of town just yet.  But we do need to at least start the process before things get any worse. Guy (Help!) 08:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, for f (*beep*) k's sake, you don't block people just because a cabal of 5 or whatever are whinging on IRC. When will various people get in into their heads that IDONTLIKEHIM is not a fu (*bleep!*) ng well valid reason to block anyone, especially not established contributors, especially not just because some people are in a bad mood and taking their frustrations out on IRC. Will the block stick? No. Will wikidrama be prevented? No. Will it cause more? Yes? Will the encyclopedia benefit? No. We've all been here before.


 * Some people seriously need to start thinking with their brains and not with their fu (*beep*) ng d (*bleep!*) cks. Please do not confuse your admin tools with your penis. Moreschi Talk 09:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * All that hostility, and whose dicks? What cabal was there? Where you actually there to see what happened? Of course you weren't because if you were, you'd know that there was no "cabal of 5 or whatever", it was a handful of people for, a handful of people against, and more than 75% of the channel not even paying attention. &rArr;    SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  10:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Moreschi, have you not been reading the various discussions regarding Jeff lately? See WP:RFAR, where one arb. opiones as follows: If, indeed, he's announced his contempt for community and consensus and policy as stated above ("meteors" and "heaven"), the community can provide those meteors.  I think blocking Jeff was wrong, and I think the irc cabal should have said no, but there is no doubt that Jeff has been, and promises to continue being, disruptive.  So: a bad call by one admin, but not an indefensibly bad call, and not capricious, just ill-judged.  I suspect he has learned his lesson.  If the bogeyman of irc had not been named then we'd probably not even have this thread. Guy (Help!) 10:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * So what? No, I wasn't there at the time, and agreed it's one admin's call, and what I said still stands, even if you do remove my profanity. Jeff is not a troll. As such, we can talk to him, not block him. IRC or no, this is so stupid. We probably don't need to desysop anyone, but some people need to consider what they're doing here. This is not a power game. IRC maybe irrelevant here, maybe not. Jeff probably is being disruptive: talk to him, don't block him. The two are mutually exclusive. We need to act in an adult manner, not one based on playground notions of eyes for eyes. This block reeks of puerility.
 * Oh, I'm frustrated, but we've effing been here before. When will people learn? The lessons are not difficult ones. Block the trolls and talk to the regulars. How hard is that? Moreschi Talk 10:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Community sentiment re IRC blocks is starkly clear, and has been for some time. The trouble is that this has not been heeded. Clue: it will never be heeded, and frankly doesn't deserve to be heeded, if it is not accompanied by action at some point or another.Proabivouac 10:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It is not an irc block. Clear?  Everybody who hangs out on irc and has ventured an opinion here, has expressed the view that this was misguided, a bad call.  And that's all it was: one bad call by one admin.  That, and nothing else.  If you want to use this as an excuse to prevent admins from using irc to blow off steam, feel free, but all you will do is (a) move it elsewhere or (b) icrease the burnout rate.  Guy (Help!) 11:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * How can I or anyone else be clear on that, when the logs are not released? Zsinj claimed it was based on consensus on IRC, you say it's not. That's all the rest of us know. Are you saying that Zsinj completely fabricated this claim? I doubt it.Proabivouac 11:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * So what happened to AGF? Is there any evidence that Zsinj et al acted in bad faith? No? Then why assume bad faith? You have to also bear in mind that how people perceive things is very different. Zsinj may have thought there was consensus when there was none; it's not an impossible or even unlikely mistake. Johnleemk | Talk 12:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * JzG, try to get your hands on the logs. Seriously. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You know what? Let's stick a fork in this once and for all -  I have not been disruptive.  Disruptive is not attempting to get an article undeleted.  Disruptive is not reversing the improper closure of a deletion discussion.  Disruptive is not "well, a bunch of people who don't like BDJ for a variety of reasons think so."  This is a classic case of "keep repeating it, and it becomes true," and it's not.  so, unless you have some good evidence that I've been disruptive, because I'm very careful not to be, I suggest people stop saying as such. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I have not been disruptive - Since the issue isn't a question of what's going on inside your head but rather its effect on other people and interactions outside of it, allow me to say that "because I said so" is less than convincing.
 * ''This is a classic case of "keep repeating it, and it becomes true,"..."" - speaking of which. Also which, it's a pretty good pocket description of your general plans of action -- keep pounding away trying to get your way -- especially in the present case.
 * ...unless you have some good evidence that I've been disruptive... - I'd say that multiple AFDs and DRVs, two runs at ArbCom, multiple insults aimed at people who have the temerity to oppose you, attempted end-runs around policy and the process you say you value so much -- and spare me the spin as to why it's justified or it's really different for you -- is prima facie evidence of disruption, however much of whatever point you seem to be trying make. --Calton | Talk 14:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for proving my point, Calton. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Since your "point" bears not the slightest resemblance to anything I wrote -- or that much of a resemblance to "consensus reality", as they used to say in the 70s -- that particular rhetorical disconnect is even less convincing than your previous "because I said so" rationale. --Calton | Talk 21:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is completely unacceptable. While I disagree with the direction in which Badlydrawnjeff would like to take Wikipedia, at this point IRC > block is just about all I need to know. Blocks should not be discussed and decided on IRC. Per JzG's comments above, the point isn't that the culture of IRC is reasonable or unreasonable, but that it is by design immune to scrutiny. There is strong community consensus for this principle, and strong action is warranted to uphold it.Proabivouac 10:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * please see JzG's comments &rArr;   SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  10:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * edit conflict, you obviously have. &rArr;   SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  10:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This is a particular variety of foolishness that is expressly unwelcome on -admins, per rules on WP:WEA and past problems - it's one thing to come to -admins for sanity checking your urge to block someone, it's quite another not to flag it here afterwards! I'll try to have a word with the guy and see what on Earth he was thinking. My apologies to all, and especially Jeff - David Gerard 10:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

WTF? Anyway, we have a range of choices: I don't know any of the parties involved here, but this seems like such a horrendously bad decision that I am well beyond #1 into #2 (the discussion above will pass for "stern talking to" already) and tending to #3. -- ALoan (Talk) 10:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) ignore this as water under the bridge
 * 2) give Zsinj a stern talking too - i.e. do NOT do this again
 * 3) move to get him/her sanctioned by ArbCom - i.e. some sort of official censure, probation or desysopping
 * "An eye for an eye" is inappropriate here: there is no need for any particular sanction on Zsinj, or a block as he'd blocked BDJ, but merely the preventative measure of desysoping, to ensure that he will not do this again. I propose a motion to desysop on WP:CSN. If we the community can ban an editor (presumably this at least in principle includes administrators?), then why can we not desysop? If adminship is truly no big deal, then taking it away isn't a big deal either.Proabivouac 10:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Arbcom should be for problems that the community fails to solve after exhustive discussion, are we really that feeble that we have to run off crying to arbcom at this stage? --Fredrick day 10:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * And are we really so unforgiving that we can't let an admin make a tit of himself even once without calling for the tar and feathers? Guy (Help!) 10:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No, JzG, I'm not calling for tar and feathers, I'm calling for desysopping. Not a block, not a censure, not a ban. I'm not an administrator: am I tarred and feathered? Most editors aren't admins: are we in a state of disgrace? Following the premises underlying your sympathetic post, so one must conclude. A non-adminstrator is an editor in good standing, and that is exactly what Zsinj has every right to be. He's abused the block tool at another's expense, so it should be (at least for now) taken away. No punishment, no hard feelings, just prevention.Proabivouac 10:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes unless this is part of an established pattern of behaviour - then a single block in error is frankly not a big deal (I'll qualify that by saying conversations on IRC should not be the basis of blocks). --Fredrick day 10:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't play it down too much: this is a big deal, as it shows a serious error in judgement from an administrator. I'm not saying a desysopping is necessary, but this was an incredibly bad idea. Jeff's net effect on the project is (in my eyes) overwhelmingly positive. Trebor 10:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * We don't block you if you fuck up once, so there's no real point to desysoping if you fuck up once. It only creates a huge incentive to refrain from doing anything lest it be wrong and you end up losing the tools. Some people would obviously prefer this situation, but since the rest of us are humans and do make mistakes, I find a "one strike, you're out" policy quite disturbing. Oh yeah, and community desysopings generally do not occur because of the risk of lynch mobbery; desysopings normally occur under an Arbcom order or via a steward decision based on some extraordinary incident (e.g. real rougery). Johnleemk | Talk 10:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I concur. It was an incredibly bone-headed move, but as long as there's no damage -- temporary or permanent -- and Zsinj recognizes it as flat wrong, the whacking he's been getting here from everyone should be punishment enough. --Calton | Talk 14:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Badlydrawnjeff blocked, unblocked: arbitrary section break
When I cussed out Zsinji on the channel last night (after waking up from my nap), I warned him that this was the exact sequence of events that would take place, although the virulence of the some of the comments above still staggers me. You'd never know from reading above that everybody commenting agrees that the block was a bad idea. You're not going to get Zsinji's head on a pike for one bad block. You all know better than that. I would hope he's learned from the experience, and per Kelly Martin revocation of access to the admin channel might be a sensible step. It has said at IRC channels/wikipedia-en-admins, and has said for some time, "Important: The channel is useful for double-checking yourself, but don't decide things based solely on an IRC discussion." This came about after last January's unpleasantness, and it's not for show, nor is the outrage from regulars at this daft idiocy. Ultimately, the question of who thought Jeff ought to be blocked doesn't matter. Really, it doesn't. We don't punish people for thinking (or saying) somebody ought to blocked, or desysopped, or hung from a streetlamp. We address things that actually happen. Zsinji blocked Jeff and asserted a consensus on IRC--there's no such thing. Either you believe in the correctness of your own action, or have substantial on-wiki support, but murmurmings in a chatroom is not consensus. It's his mistake and he'll have to answer for it. For my part, I shouldn't have snoozed off else I would have been there to scream "No, don't do it!" For that, I do apologize to all involved. Mackensen (talk) 10:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

If I were to make an apology to Jeff and to the rest of the community, where would be the best place for it? I am willing to throw myself to the mercy of the community and I recognize I made a hasty decision without knowing all the facts. Thanks. ZsinjTalk 11:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Doesn't really matter, does it? Here's as good as anywhere. Trebor 11:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I think some of the stuff said here - by me not least, even with Phaedriel adding bleeps - will serve as admonition enough. A pointless desysopping will serve no purpose. Just this once, we can say "Never again" and forgive and forget, and maybe kick from #wikipedia-en-admins (note: that channel is not Requests for Blocking). Clemency is the virtue of the great. Moreschi Talk 11:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Zsinj. What I would like to see is your and everyone else's support for the notion that any admin who in the future blocks based upon an IRC discussion or encourages others to block on IRC should be immediately desysoped. The clearer we make this, the less likely it is that another well-meaning admin will find him or herself in your position: it is ultimately the community's responsibility for not making this crystal clear. Obviously you weren't aware of how much controversy this would engender, which is proof that the message wasn't clear. So let's make it clear now and call it a day.Proabivouac 11:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That is stupid. IRC can be used to doublecheck whether an account should be blocked indefinitely as troll-only, for example, or to discuss whether a user looks like a sock. There can be useful and good blocks based on IRC discussion. Blocking long-term contributors for disruption is likely not going to help no matter where it is debated. Kusma (talk) 12:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * So if I were to delete an image as "replacable fairuse" when it was in fact not replaceable, should I be desysoped too? Your rationale sounds more like a personal vendetta than a solution to this one incident. ZsinjTalk 12:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * So let me get this straight...admins are not human and should not be given any leeway to be human and make mistakes? And you believe the encyclopaedia can run smoothly like this? If this were the case, I'd stop making decisions on anything remotely possibly controversial, and so would many other admins. It's one thing to hold admins to a higher standard than editors - that's only sensible because they have more tools. But it's a completely different thing to hold them to an inhuman standard. Johnleemk | Talk 12:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * In light of the feedback this suggestion has received, I have to think that I overreacted. Nothing personal here at all, Zsinj.Proabivouac 17:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No harm, no foul. :-) ZsinjTalk 18:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the right thing for this is an RFC. I'd also recommend it be focused. There really are 3 issues (IMHO) that are being addressed:
 * What are the facts of the case. That is what specifically happened that led to the mistake and how can it be avoided in the future?  -- It appears that is getting resolved.
 * What should happen to Zsinj? There seem to be a few people who feel that the act was stupid enough to carry serious consequences in and of itself (like the old policy regarding legal threats).  Others people feel that getting insulted 2 dozen times on AN/I plus an apology is probably enough punishment for what was a momentary lapse of judgment.
 * What is the appropriate role of IRC?
 * -- This issue is very serious. I think its time to open this 3rd question up fully.  People on a regular basis are being attacked based on IRC.  It has become a very destructive influence (it may always have been so).  A broad IRC guideline should be created which indicates what sorts of activities are acceptable.  For example
 * getting advice on how to handle issues seems to be useful.
 * Instant moderation on IRC has had a positive effect (though people should never be pressured into using IRC)
 * Coordination against vandals seems to be useful
 * Coordinating attacks off wiki against long time users because of policy / content disagreements should be banned absolutely and completely. And this has been regular behavior of many long standing administrators.  And that is what IMHO is generating the anger at Zsinj (who AFAIK has never done this before).
 * jbolden1517Talk 14:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

This will be crossposted to the RFAR as my comment on the matter:


 * To Badlydrawnjeff, members of -admins, fellow administrators, and to the community as a whole:


 * My actions last night are the result of trying to play the devil's advocate which resulted in an administrative action. For approximately two hours, I asked questions about the issue with the Jeff and in responce I received the impression that Jeff was doing more harm than good. Some voiced frustration about how the situation was becoming lenghty and filled with drama. However, realizing that this all took place in an internet chat room, and a private one no less, that those individuals have nothing to do with the action that only I committed.


 * I recognize that the decision to block the user was a relatively hasty and uninformed one. Part of the decision was based upon ending the frustration of my peers and trying to get the involved parties to calm down. Through two RFARs and an RFC, I did not see the discussion reaching any compromises and by myself decided to take the action I did. While I did ask for assistance in wording, the block length and reason are my original thinking. 60 hours would have been Friday and I would have hoped people would have been able to think rationally without Jeff breathing down their necks (figuratively) during that time.


 * In my opinion, last night I made one block that was clearly not in the community's interest. I have seen proposed consequences of my actions range from nothing and a "stern talking to" to desysopping via CSN. While my opinion on the consequences would be clearly biased, I would like to make it known that there are people out there who are asking for blood, while others are being more rational and realizing that I am not the person to go on an inappropriate blocking spree. Up until the block last night, I stuck mainly to CSD backlogs and the occasional blocking fo vandals (which I noticed on *gasp IRC). If my efforts are not welcome by the community, I will acknowledge that. If it can be seen that I cannot improve, I will disagree, but I am at the mercy of the community and the decisions they make. <b style="color:#22AA00;">Zsinj</b><sup style="color:#888888;">Talk 11:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I honestly didn't think that you would do the block. Most, if not all, of my comments to the discussion on IRC were in jest, or only partially serious. It up the community to decide if those in the channel are responsible as well, though; I could have stopped it if I was thinking. Sean William 12:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * On another note, I will gladly release everything I said into the channel last night. Regarding privacy concerns, I said I would release what I said. If others feel like doing the same, that is up to them. <b style="color:#22AA00;">Zsinj</b><sup style="color:#888888;">Talk 12:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * We need the names and logs of all involved in the shameful episode. No "ifs and buts" just the names and the logs. Now. The need to be published openly on WP ANI for everyone to see what is going on. Giano 12:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be against established protocol. I will not make any more potentially controversial actions as a result of this. <b style="color:#22AA00;">Zsinj</b><sup style="color:#888888;">Talk 12:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * and how do you plan to get this information? with a time machine? or by breaching the T&Cs of service on freenode and the channel ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fredrick day (talk • contribs)


 * You've got the name of the person who blocked. He has taken responsibility for his actions, as he should. What you're really asking for is a list of persons who muttered, at some point, that they thought Badlydrawnjeff ought to be blocked. What, exactly, do you intend to do with this list? Of what value could it possibly be? If there's something worth arbitrating the arbs will get the logs privately, as with all private communications. We've been over this before. Mackensen (talk) 13:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Anyone who actually believes that IRC (unencrypted, untrusted server-web arcitecture) communications are "private communications," is wrong. I noticed that the channel's documentation page here gave poor information regarding this alleged "privacy." I have corrected this. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 13:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Obviously it's insecure, but then so is email. It's private in the sense that it is not a communication meant for public consumption, that's all (and, furthermore, one whose publication is prohibited by the host). Mackensen (talk) 13:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The prohibitions against logging / publication are neither legally nor morally enforcable in this case. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 13:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * So, let's see, the argument is that people on IRC have a right to privacy. If anything, that lack of transparency makes the idea of using IRC for anything of this nature even more disturbing.  Secret courts and hidden evidence are the sort of thing that makes for trouble and conflict.  Certainly there are things which should be kept private.  This is not one of them.  I admonish *anybody* thinking of using IRC for dealing with problems of anything but the most routine and unambiguous nature to not do so.  It's unhealthy for Wikipedia.  And yes, I know it's fundamentally impossible to stop people from talking off Wiki about whatever they want.  I do not suggest any proscriptive action.  I merely advise all admins that the best way to do things is upfront and open to the public.  To do otherwise risks creating an atmosphere that causes problems, not solves them.  FrozenPurpleCube 14:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Which is why people are encouraged to justify blocks on-wiki. You'll notice the chorus of administrators denouncing what happened. This kind of screw-up makes everybody look bad. Mackensen (talk) 14:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * A list of people who were aware of block but did not take action to correct it would be easily determined from a log. I missed the part in our privacy policy that allowed any-given-adminstrator access to non-public information. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 14:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You seem to be laboring under a fundamental misapprehension. The policy is freenode's, not ours, and applies to all channels, not just that one. This isn't a question of administrators vs. non-administrators. As to your first point, I'm not sure what action could be taken prior to the block, other than stated disagreement, and afterwards there was indignation followed by a prompt unblock. You seem to wish to penalize people for thinking a block was a good idea. What about people who voiced support on-wiki? Do we punish them to? Mackensen (talk) 14:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * We have no obligation to assist in freenodes enforcement of their policies. Specifically, the posting of such logs to wikipedia where appropriate is appropriate, and (currently) is not prohibited. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 14:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, all those who were present on the freenode channel, do have an obligation to conform to freenode's policies. If this means no public dissemination of channel logs, then they must not publicly disseminate channel logs.  --Tony Sidaway 14:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Freenode's policies are located at this page and do not mention any prohibition on logging whatsoever. Beyond that, a user of the irc network is not required at any time to affix a signature, digital or otherwise, to said policies. Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 15:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Given that Jeff seems to have already seen the logs, my point may be moot, but whatever the policies are of freenode or WP, doing the right thing should take precedent. daveh4h 15:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * There's agreeing with a block, and then there's egging someone on to do the block, up to and including assisting with the wording of the blocking statement. The former is simply opinion, and you can't go after someone for uneducated or ignorant opinion, but the latter is just as bad as pulling the trigger, if not worse if you're trying to get someone else to do the dirty work.  --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I can agree with that to a point, but ultimately we have to expect that our adminstrators are capable of independent judgement. I can't speak to the direct circumstances--I wasn't active, nor was the conversation in my scrollback. Mackensen (talk) 14:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Despite your (Jeff's) own opinion, I was not forced to take out the laundry or to do another person's dirty work or anything like that. I asked questions. I made my own opinion (here's where it started) and took action (here's where it ended). Please do not join the crowd of people who are assuming without first having evidence to back up your claim. Asking for more than one bird to be hit with your stone is simply trying to do as much damage as possible before the ArbCom case is concluded. <b style="color:#22AA00;">Zsinj</b><sup style="color:#888888;">Talk 14:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The issue, of course, is that I have the evidence. Yes, you asked questions, and yes, you made your own opinion based on those questions.  I'm also convinced, seeing the flow of the discussion, that you were played very, very hard.  Which is unfortunate.  You don't need to try and be the fall guy here. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Your seemingly sympathetic concerns are making me go back and look at the conversation myself. Perhaps my opinion will change once I have reread it. Thank you. <b style="color:#22AA00;">Zsinj</b><sup style="color:#888888;">Talk 14:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Given I haven't set up mIRC to log since I got my new computer, can someone email the log to me? Thanks. :( <b style="color:#22AA00;">Zsinj</b><sup style="color:#888888;">Talk 14:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It was a matter of me getting home later than usual from class and seeing what was up on IRC. There was no secret evidence. There was no secret court. There is no cabal (seriously) and even if there were, I wouldn't be a part of it. IRC is a place I go to see how people are doing and to have lively discussions about whatever. When people make IRC a mystical secret court with secret rules and evidence, they are creating a dream world for the justification of their attack. I had decided I was not going to return to the channel before Mackensen removed my ability to do so. <b style="color:#22AA00;">Zsinj</b><sup style="color:#888888;">Talk 14:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The block was wrong. The unblock was right. Zsinj has already apologized. This is w/o precedent. The case is already being discussed and dealt w/ at the related ArbCom case. Can we please close this thread and if you like open [Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Decisions and blocks based on IRC discussions are BAD and should be immediately be reverted and sanctioned]? -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  15:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that this can be closed. The only comments still coming in are from people just piling on the "This block was bad! Zsinj is bad!" comments. Put a link to the ArbCom case up at the top and let this get archived. <b style="color:#22AA00;">Zsinj</b><sup style="color:#888888;">Talk 16:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Once again the community (that's you) has proven that it is incapable of doing anything productive, but is instead willing to take a shit on other people whenever something "bad" happens. Nice job, guys. Conservapedia could use few more idiots like yourselves. - Pilotguy hold short  16:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

And where is Giano when you need him? He digs stuff like this. Oh well, he's brianwashed and told you enough bedtime stories about IRC enough as it is already. Kudos. - Pilotguy hold short  16:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Please remember to be civil, even when discussing difficult issues. Thank you. --BigDT 17:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Vintagekits reblocked
Someone need to attend to this where an admin is acticing out of a fit of pique! and ignoring discussion above. Giano 13:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Personal attack blocks never work; I thought we'd learned that. Mackensen (talk) 13:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately not everyone with an admin bit has learned it. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 15:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Then they should have the bit taken away from them. There is a very ugly situation developing over the Kittybrewster business, tens of pages many with uncited (or worse deceptively cited) gross exaggerations, a constant stream of deletions is not the answer, especially as there is a practised team supporting these pages, refusing to believe proven inaccuracies.  I suggest some responsible and reputable admin concerns himself with it before it gets completely out of hand. He has been warned but blanks his page.  I do  not say he is a liar, but he certainly is retentive with the truth. I understand Vintagekit's anger, others are equally angry at this charade. I strongly suggest someone like Mackensen with experience of the peerage deals with it. Finally, for what it is worth, no European titled person, of ancient lineage, would ever dream of editing of an internet page concerning their own relations - they leave that to others - it is considered vulgar.  That is as it may Kittybrewster only claims to be a second baronet - so I suppose the behaviour of those in the Libro d'Oro does not apply.  Anyway - whatever - it needs sorting before it becomes completely out of hand. Giano 16:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggest that Kittybrewster is put on a parole of having to cite page numbers and ISBNs of almost every verb he writes. He will not be allowed to cite his own web-sites or books published by his own relatives unless they follow the same guideline. Short of banning Kittybrewster completely I can see no alternative to restore trust in anything he writes, perhaps we need an arb com case to enforce this, it would be more pleasant to all if a guiding admin could just act as a mentor to him - to see if that helps - Mackensen? Giano 18:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm certainly willing to lend a hand here, particularly with the sourcing issues. I would think that self-published sources may only be used if they can be corrorborated by secondary works–and if they can, why use the self-published source? If we can reliably source these articles, we can also resolve lingering notability questions. I'm also willing to play the role of unofficial mediator between parties as proves necessary. We should probably start with a thorough review of the articles in question--Giano, I know you've done a lot of these leg-work already. Adjourn to my talk page? Mackensen (talk) 18:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

John Brown (abolitionist)
Could we get, perhaps, a several hour block or so on the 167.135.48.x IP range? Someone is constantly IP hopping on this range to vandalize John Brown (abolitionist). Either that, or a short semi-protection for that page. Thanks. The Evil Spartan 17:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I rangeblocked User:167.135.0.0/16 for 3 months: apparently that entire range is registered to Salem-Keizer public schools. The article was semiprotected but I wouldn't want the vandals to move on to another target.  Mango juice talk 17:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Given the fact that school will be letting out soon (at least here in the states), three months will probably overshoot when the vandals will still be using it. That said, it doesn't hurt anything, either. ;) EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 19:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Crystal Gail Mangum
Someone recreated this as a redirect after deletion. Please protect it while discussion is ongoing. The way, the truth, and the light 19:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Done ... I'm surprised that it wasn't turned into a protected title. But anyway, I have protected the redirect.  If someone has any severe heartburn about whether it should be a protected deleted title or salted instead, feel free to change it - I don't really care one way or the other. --BigDT 19:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * A redirect with no history seems right to me, people will probably be searching on the name. Thatcher131 21:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

User:64.251.54.66
64.251.54.66 has been vandalizing numerous pages. For instance, Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University,Pig,Moctezuma I, and so forth. he has been warned several times. jwadeo 19:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Already blocked --BigDT 19:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

User:67.87.69.5
needs poked with a stick (preferably a banstick). Once I determined the first five games he added "released for PS3, PSP" to were not true, I had to go through and revert pretty much all of his edits starting from last week-ish (as all of his edits from before then were already reverted). Nifboy 20:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Darkcurrent
I'm fairly new to Wiki, but have noticed that this user constantly berates and belittles users. If you look what he mentions on people's userpages and in the edit summary, it's really childing and immature. Isn't there something anyone can do? -- s u m n j i m  talk with me·changes 20:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Providing some diffs of these statements would help. EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 21:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC) Statement made before the username was corrected... otherwise, yes, a cursory glance would have done the trick. :) EVula // talk //  &#9775;  // 04:48, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming you're talking about User:Darkcurrent and not User:Betacommand... in which case even a cursory glance at the contributions makes it pretty obvious. -- <strong style="color:blue;">Kinu <sup style="color:red;">t /<sub style="color:red;">c  21:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * whoops, yes i'm so sorry, talking about DarkCurrent -- s u m n j i m  talk with me·changes 04:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Holy shit! has blocked them for 31 hours, and I've placed the talk page on my watchlist. If I spot another edit summary like that, I'll indefinitely block them. EVula // talk //  &#9775;  // 05:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Cendyn
This user has already been associated with the Hotel Internet Marketing SEO scheme using Wikipedia, and has been warned about spamming, but is now back and creating more hotel ads disguised as articles. Corvus cornix 21:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I just deleted their blatant hotel advert. However, there seems to be a multiple accounts thing going on here. Who's User:Cendyn.marriottharborbeach? - A l is o n  ☺ 21:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I've added "cendyn\.com" to Shadowbot's blacklist in case they move to article space again. Shadow1  (talk) 22:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Benfeing
Could somebody take a look at 's image uploads? He's listing all of these movie poster thumbnails as PD-Self, which I find highly unlikely. Corvus cornix 21:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Adding speedy delete tags to the images, with links to the sources. Pastordavid 22:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I've tagged a number of the images, but there are more. Perhaps someone with more experience could do this a little faster?  I won't be able to get after any more until tomorrow.  It does raise the larger question of at what point this stops being mis-labeled images and unintentional copyright violations, and starts being intentional and disruptive vandalism.  Pastordavid 22:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It's vandalism after the user has the situation explained at least briefly, is given links to WP:NONFREE and whatever else is relevant, is warned they can be blocked for it, and then keeps doing it. Copyright is a big enough problem that we have to block when someone refuses to understand. 48 hours is usually enough time to read the policies. ··coe l acan 06:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Bad sources being kept in on University High School (Los Angeles, California)
<div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color: #C7BEFA; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">
 * The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this page.

Take it to article talk, this seems to be nothing which requires admin intervention. --pgk 06:19, 24 May 2007

Ok, so the majority of the page is fine, but the part about the filming is highly negative, and highly critical of the high school. I have been removing the sections that either had no source, or were sourced unreliably. 100% of the negative information comes from a single source: "my.highschooljournalism.org" which is where the high school student newspaper is hosted online.

Student newspapers are not reliable sources. They are not required to be fact checked. They do not educate their writers about the dangers of libel and defamation. They are written by students, by minors. This is clearly an unacceptable source. If this information is such a big deal, where are the other sources? Google shows nothing.

User:Badagnani and User:Miss Mondegreen continue to insist on including the negative information. If this article were about a person, I would have deleted it immediately, but it's not. If this article wants to contain that material, it needs to have a REAL source from it. I'd appreciate it if some other admins looked into this. &rArr;   SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  21:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Incorrect. Student newspapers, like commercial newspapers, strive to be fair and accurate, and stories by student journalists are copyedited by other student journalists. Whether their writers are old enough to drink is irrelevant. The reason a high school newspaper is the best source of information in this case is that the news item happened in its backyard, in the same way that the best source of information about a murder is likely to be a newspaper published in the city where the murder took place. --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 22:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Why does this require admin attention? What steps in dispute resolution have been tried?  --ElKevbo 22:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Because users are locked in an edit war - And the participants are rather adamant about reverting. That's why. WhisperToMe 22:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * And the dispute resolution steps that have been employed are...? --ElKevbo 22:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict)Note that I just reverted swatjester (my second revert). The edit I reverted is swatjester's fourth revert. The other reason this is here is because we had a hard time getting people to the talk page--swatjester didn't comment on the talk page until his second or third revert (though he left comments on user talks some of which I found insulting). I've been asking people to use the talk page for days, because in an effort to get rid of sources that they don't like we've had numerous blatantly incorrect edits followed by a revert war where too many parties refused to come to the talk page. The revert war also happened while I was actually writing parts of the section which made actually doing anything (like adding the other sources people wanted so badly) very difficult.
 * You reverted people other than me. And we HAVE been using the talk page, you are refusing to listen there. Please stop misrepresenting yourself. &rArr;    SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  23:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, additional source include the latimes, the christian scince moniter and the daily news Miss Mondegreen talk  22:23, May 23 2007 (UTC)
 * And note they weren't deleted. Only the student newspaper was. Note that none of those sources you provided were alleging the negative material, only the student newspaper. &rArr;    SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  23:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps discussion on the talk page counts? Talk:University_High_School_%28Los_Angeles%2C_California%29

This began as a debate over how to properly word a sentence. It veered into a new direction when a third party deleted the section, stating that the source was improper. Just read the talk page sections. WhisperToMe 22:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * So you've engaged in the first step of the WP:DR process. I fail to see why this was so quickly placed on ANI by experienced editors.  If additional DR steps have been taken and I have missed them, please let me know.  --ElKevbo 22:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I placed it here for two reasons: a) because Miss Mondegreen was revert warring to include negative, defamatory information without a reliable source. That clearly belongs here. Secondly, b) it was in response to her threat that if we didn't "stop" it at her preferred version she'd report us at AN/I. So I did it first. &rArr;    SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  23:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * New people entered the debate, but I cannot tell if it ever really stopped. But, the reason why this was listed has to do with accusations of 3RR made by the parties. WhisperToMe 22:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Whisper and I had been semi-seccesssfully being bold, reverting and discussing when swatjester came in and decided that a large portion of the sources in question were unusable. I replied to him on the talk page about the validity of his argument, and overnight, rewrote the section adding in more outside sources and hopefully, dealing with the wording issues whisper had raised. without replying to any on the comments on the talk page, swatjester reverted again, starting an revert war, during which I continued to work on the section--because no comments were left on the talk page and because i happened to be editing in between the warring, I wasn't even aware of the war until the second or third round of reverting when swatjester left a comment on my talk page. at this point i tried again to bring people to the talk page and really, i failed. swatjester only came to the talk page after his fourth revert, after i'd threatened ani if he didn't come to the talk page and after this was filed here. Miss Mondegreen talk  22:44, May 23 2007 (UTC)

I posted a request for comment here: Requests_for_comment/University_High_School_%28Los_Angeles%2C_California%29 WhisperToMe 22:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * While that's a fine theoretical idea, the current version of the page is well, very different than what you're asking for comments about so I don't know why you're asking for comments about those two versions unless you're simply trying to prove that you were correct. First, I've found more recent sources, and the older version is inaccurate, and second, I rewrote the section and I believe that it takes care of your complaint.  Your complaint was that it was that small words like "only" made the language not neutral, and that it was not clear who the complaints were attributed to.  I believe that both of those issues should be cleared up.  If they are not, let me know what areas you think need work, specifically.  On the talk page, not here because this page takes forever to load.  This issue now, is that some editors are saying that the high school newspaper can't be used as a source--if it's being critical of the school.  That's a completely seperate issue from the one you raised.  Miss Mondegreen  talk  22:50, May 23 2007 (UTC)

User_talk:Badagnani was one of the comments swatjester left that I found insulting. Miss Mondegreen talk  22:52, May 23 2007 (UTC)
 * You found "if she wants to include the information, fine, but she needs to have a real source for it." insulting? Either you need to assume good faith, or stop trolling. &rArr;    SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  23:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I've protected the page due to edit warring. ·:·Will Beback  ·:· 22:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

3RR allegations
14:55, 22 May 2007 SwatJester removed almost the entire section (because student newspaper is not an adequate source for negative information), including parts with additional sources

I rewrote the section: adding more outside references and reorganizing the section so that it was clearer and more neutral per whisper's concerns

13:18, 23 May 2007 13:23, 23 May 2007 In two edits, SwatJester removed all negative information about the school that used the student newspaper as a source

13:34, 23 May 2007 swatjester reverts and removes move of the same

15:00, 23 May 2007 standard revert

15:43, 22 May 2007 Swatjester's first comment on the talk page, 12 minutes before his first edit to the article

15:01, 23 May 2007 Swatjester's next, and as of now, only other comment on the talk page, four reverts later. In the comment he warns other editors to be wary of 3RR

In the time he didn't comment on the talk page, I had four page touches, Bagani had 2, WhisperToMe had 1 and 66.253.139.45 had 2

Technically, swatjester is five minutes away from violation of 3rr. However his complete unwillingness to comment once on the talk page during that time, and then his warning other users about violating 3rr leads me to believe that he knew exactly what he was doing. He single handedly started an edit war where their hadn't been one before, by raising an issue and then refusing to discuss it. It's not like he wasn't online or watching the page--he was, and he was doing something about it, forcing his opinions on everyone else because he didn't want to be bothered to answer the questions we posed about the fallacy of his arguements or lay out any real arguements. This has locked an article in a version with enormous chunks missing, and fact tags everywhere, and taken a lot of time from a lot of editors. Miss Mondegreen talk  23:32, May 23 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow, so you came here to tell me how I didn't violate the 3RR? As if I wasn't aware of it? Perhaps you should have attempted to work towards finding alternate sources, instead of unreliable ones. &rArr;    SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  23:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It's real close. You purposefully minute counted and didn't go to the talk page until you were out of reverts--until you'd reverted four times in 24 hours and 5 minutes.  Tell me that's not a violation of 3RR.  You realize that without the high school newspaper sources the entire ficus tree section is gone and that I don't even have a source for the mascot changing so whoops, there goes that section too?  and the filming list of course.  Of course, you didn't remove any of that in your edits.  do you have a problem with a high school newspaper as your source or with parts of the article mentioning critisms of the school?
 * Yes, we do have a problem with a high school newspaper. The problem is, any freshman can walk in and write something. Since the Supreme Court says the school can't censor it, they're able to say whatever the heck they want. High school newspapers do not have to tell the truth, especially when they have no competition. Now, find a reliable source, or don't put the information in. Period. Sean William 23:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't care about the ficus tree section. The ficus tree doesn't potentially affect someone's career. I only care about how the high school section criticizes the school......criticism needs to be from a RELIABLE source. &rArr;    SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  23:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, the Supreme Court has upheld the right of public school administrators to censor high school newspapers. But this discussion, like everything else in this section, belongs on the article's Talk page.  --ElKevbo 00:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I was alluding to Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier. I have a counterargument, but I'm not going to bring it up here; we're already plenty off topic. Sean William 00:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Inapplicable in California. From the link you included "An important caveat goes along with all of this information about the Hazelwood decision: the Supreme Court was only ruling on the protections the First Amendment to the United States Constitution offers to public high school students. They left open the possibility that other avenues of protection, including everything from state constitutional provisions or state laws to school board regulations, might still prevent school officials from censoring. Arkansas, California, Colorado, Iowa , Kansas and Massachusetts have state laws that protect the free expression rights of students"   &rArr;    SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  00:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Faculty oversees the paper. And, administration at the school has censored the paper before.  Anyway, all my version said was that an editorial accused x.  It had both the editorial as a source and the reply from the administration.  I can easily change it so it that the reply from the administration is mentioned and not just a source.  Anyway--it's pure WP:V.  We're reporting that an editorial accused x--we're not agreeing with it or saying that they were correct.  Just that it happened.  Besides, if that's swatjester's only issue, why did he remove so many other sources as well?  Miss Mondegreen  talk  00:17, May 24 2007 (UTC)
 * That one quote is not my sole issue. My issue is the continual use of bad sources. &rArr;    SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  00:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Article Talk page, please. No need to continue cluttering up ANI. --ElKevbo 00:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Kevbo, it's involving an edit war, a subsequent protection, and the use of unreliable sources to allege negative material. If that were a person, we'd be calling it.....BLP. It most certainly belongs here. &rArr;    SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  00:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not involving a person so drop the BLP comparisons. Edit wars and even protected articles don't routinely belong on ANI - that's why the various dispute resolution procedures and WP:RFP exist.  This is not the Wikipedia complaints department and you, an experienced and respected editor, should know that.  --ElKevbo 00:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention the ridiculousness of this allegation: From the times up there: the first edit was a removal, not a revert. The second (two-part) was my first revert., the next was my second revert. The next revert after that was WELL after 24 hours, as was the one after that. Wow, I wasn't even CLOSE to violating the 3RR! You know what they say about numbers...... &rArr;   SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  00:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * "'A revert, in this context, means undoing, in whole or in part, the actions of another editor or of other editors'"
 * By definition, your first edit was a revert. Miss Mondegreen  talk  00:23, May 24 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, I should mention that the IP on the talk page, that was me while logged out. &rArr;    SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  00:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

attn:swatjester - not a content dispute
This is not a content dispute.

Miss Mondegreen's version

Swatjester's version

diff between versions

Swatjester keeps claiming that he removed unsourced text and removed the student newspaper sources as non-reliable and placed fact tags where necessary.

But really, he took out all criticism of the school no matter how well it was sourced.

This is his first tagging:

"'The administration, which allows filming during school hours,[citation needed] moves classes as needed[citation needed] and allows productions to make minor changes to the campus[citation needed], has a long history of bringing in filming (and the money that goes with it) to the school.'"

There had been two references at the end of that sentence, he removed the school newspaper one, leaving the latimes one.

Let's quote from the Latimes article, shall we?

"Galedary said administrators allow crews to work during school hours and are willing to move teachers or students out of classrooms and other areas to make way for cameras."

Those showy birds of paradise blooms out front spoil the Ivy League effect. ''Not for long. The tropical-looking plants with their spiky orange- and-blue blossoms are about to be torn up.''

Of course, the school newspaper had additional instances of changes to the campus, but let's move on.

---

He removed: "These disruptions are a cause for students complaints." and "The usage of the school for filming is a controversial one. "

Why, I'm not sure. Because the only controversy is sourced in the high school newspaper? Because the complaints are only sourced in the student newspaper? Well, even that's controversy and complaints, and, it's sourced elsewhere:

latimes:

"'Although some students and teachers complain that filming is disruptive and messy, administrators say they are as welcoming as possible because they need the money.'"

CSM:

"'But not everyone agrees that auditioning for movie and TV roles is the right way for public schools to recoup such losses. Filming sometimes disrupts class time, and the revenue stream it creates is uncertain at best.'"

more CSM, particularly in regards to complaints about money at UNI:

''But not everybody is thrilled with the production companies' recurring role at University High. In December, a student opinion piece in the campus newspaper, complained that administrators didn't keep students and teachers informed about how the money was being spent.''

''School officials at University High have said that students would be welcome to attend budget meetings and see for themselves, but skepticism persists. One teacher says the money would be better spread among departments, not just allotted to the groups or classes who might have been displaced during filming.''

He removed: "University High charges the standard district fee for each day of filming (currently $2,500). 12 percent of the monies earned goes to the EIDC (Entertainment Industry Development Corp.), which acts as the middleman between the LAUSD and the entertainment industry. Of the remaining funds, the school receives 75 percent, and the district recieves 25 percent which goes into a fund that benefits schools that do not generate film revenues of their own. Of the money that the school recieves, the first $12,000 made each year is distributed amoung the departments. The Budget Committee makes spending recommendations for any additional monies."

Almost all of that was sourced through the daily news--not reliable enough? How about education week on the web? One line came from the high school newspaper--only it was not something published by a student, but by an administrator. It was a response to a student editorial.

He removed: "In 2005, LAUSD officials revised the district's fee structure for the first time since 1992. The revision included extending a full day of shooting from 14 to 15 hours, and a daily rate increase from $1,700 to $2,500."

Again, daily news.

Then he removed a section on drillbit taylor at the end and he removed a section in the middle that refered to student complaints in articles and editorials.

He may or may not actually have a serious concern about the reliablity of a high school newspaper as a source. But, I don't buy it. If that was his concern, Swatjester shouldn't have focused on removing stuff that was supported by other sources, and should have instead turned his attention to the rest of the article removing the rest of the school newspaper sources from ther. He didn't even remove all of the ones in that section--he jusr removed what made the school look bad.

I think that the discussion we're having on the Rfc is an important one, though I don't think it will affect any of the sources we use, but I'm very upset by swatjester's actions and his continuing accusations when his edits don't reflect a word he's saying. Miss Mondegreen talk  03:04, May 24 2007 (UTC)

"He may or may not actually have a serious concern about the reliablity of a high school newspaper as a source. But, I don't buy it."....Good job assuming good faith. I especially like the part where in the same paragraph you say: "But really, he took out all criticism of the school no matter how well it was sourced." and then seconds later "he removed the school newspaper one, leaving the latimes one." See this edit: I've had it, the trolls win. You can criticize this article all you want, source it from the national enquirer, source it from Daniel Brandt. I don't care. I have no interest in this article, and I have no interest in my blood pressure raising to astronomical levels, from a hypocritical troll who misrepresents my position over and over again. You did it all over the talk page, you did it all over here. You insinuated I violated 3RR, when I came nowhere close. You then claimed I never was on the talk page, when I clearly was. You refuse to work with me, or listen, you refuse to even consider for a second that this might violate the WP:RS policy, or that people at the school could get hurt over this. So you know what, fine. You want to own the article so bad, have at it. &rArr;   SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  04:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You left the source in, but put fact tags around the statements, as though they were unsourced. I still am so confused by your position.  First it's on the editorials in the school newspaper, which have been referenced in a major news article, and, regardless of whether they're right or not or whether or not the school newspaper is a piece of !!!, it's verifiable that there have been editorials in the newspaper saying x.  We don't avoid WP:V because it might hurt people's feelings or be bad for their careers.
 * And, I provided several other sources, not just school articles, and as I've continued working on the section in my sandbox, I've added additional sources still and cleaned up a few spelling mistakes etc.
 * If the issue that will hurt the school is anything that is in their newspaper--any fact whatsoever, I don't buy that. First, you didn't remove school newspaper stuff that didn't reflect badly--the school newspaper gets the facts right when it's good for the school but not the rest of the time?  And second I've yet to see you join in a meaningful debate on the quality of the source in question.  You say one thing, do another and then shift to another position and that's very frustrating, especially for someone who was interrupted from writing and researching early this morning by an edit war.  I don't know what your positions or your motives are.  I do know that you removed information as unsourced that was sourced reliably and not contentiously (i.e. not the school newspaper) and you put up fact tags for stuff that there was still sources there for (latimes etc).  I don't get it and I've been asking you to explain it to me since the edit war started and you haven't bothered.  Miss Mondegreen  talk  05:06, May 24 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this page.

129.133.124.195 and related IPs
An anonymous editor at and some other IPs in the same range  has been occasionally edit-warring at Wesleyan University and a few other articles, with incivility and intransigence almost rising to the level of a full-on troll. Since the user has shown no inclination to become more civil when cautioned or to familiarize him/herself with Wikipedia guidelines, I'd like to ask an admin to have a word, apply a brief block, and/or keep an eye on the account. -- Rbellin|Talk 22:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Here are example diffs for problem behavior, incivility:  and revert warring:   etc. -- Rbellin|Talk 00:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

User Rbellin engages in uncivil, erratic, and confrontational behavior, and apparently engages in stalking. Since the user has shown no inclination to become more civil when cautioned or to familiarize him/herself with Wikipedia guidelines, I would like to ask an admin to have a word, apply a brief block, and/or keep an eye on the account, but since the whole of his episodes amount to little more than childishness it does not seem worth anyone's bother. I do not know why he seeks to escalate the issue.

User:Wendel67 requesting lift of autoblock
has been requesting a lift of an autoblock on his talk page and through helpme for several hours now. Could someone answer him please, as he seems pretty frustrated. Cheers, &#10154; Hi DrNick ! 23:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Lifted. Sean William 23:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Bobby Sands man
Hi all. Can someone review the above editor's edit history? He's just come off a previous block, which I imposed due to incivility and harassment. He was previously this anon & had exactly the same problem. Right now, he's posting comments on my talk page and that of another admin, User:Fire Star. Frankly, it doesn't look like he's here to assist the project and my instinct here suggests indefblocking the guy as a troll. Comments? - A l is o n  ☺ 00:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with the above assessment. His consistently agenda-driven editing and not-even-subtly abusive comments to those whom he disagrees with are at a disconnect with his own stated perceptions of his behaviour, IMO. That seems anomalous enough to me that I also request another admin review the histories. --Fire Star 火星 00:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * He might be a troll, but I've run into users before who have been utterly convinced that their strictly-defined versions of logic are utterly necessary for the encyclopedia to continue functioning without ... I dunno ... creating a singularity and collapsing the universe or something. While they might be trying to be helpful, they do not know the meaning of compromise and thus cannot be helpful to a consensus-based, massively-distributed project.   --Dynaflow   babble  00:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This guy doesn't edit mainspace, other than to remove categories from articles to make a point. He's only interested in the Bobby Sands article. - A l is o n  ☺ 00:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * His edits in Talk space are revealing, though, as he also has an apparent interest in the logical categorizations of Seung-Hui Cho, Woody Allen, and John Edwards. I can sort of see how his thinking works.  He's taking prominent figures who are [fill in the blank], but not known for being so and removing the "irrelevant" categories, or at least lobbying for their removal.   --Dynaflow   babble  00:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I've been lurking at Alison's talk page and have seen some of his posts there. I think she has been very patient. ElinorD (talk) 00:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

It almost looks like an autistic-type thing, or perhaps someone imitating that behavior pattern rather well. From this post, though, the user starts to smell a lot more like troll. --Dynaflow  babble  00:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Even with my minor interactions with this user he has not been very civil and has made near to or just outright attacks on other editors (all depending on interpretation). Anyway, thanks that is what I have seen of his conduct on a very minor issue he dealt with with me. MrMacMan  Talk  02:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC) Spelling error... gah.  MrMacMan  Talk  07:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This user's latest words to Alison are borderline open threats: "Alison, I know how you think, don't try to cover anything up and expect me not to catch it, it makes you look foolish. You are like a little child and I am your mother, I know what you are doing and what you are thinking. You can't sneak anything past me." The only reason why I'm not issuing a block here is because my friendship with Alison, that can be openly seen at our talk pages, might cast suspicion on the motives of the block, warranted as it is in my eyes.  P h a e d r i e l  - 03:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I blocked him indef, we don't need users like this around. -- John Reaves (talk) 05:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Lexie Kaye
This is an archived version of this page, as edited by 208.250.55.163 (Talk) at 01:06, 23 May 2007. It may differ significantly from the current version.

Lexie Kaye is an American on-air personality at WSRV-FM in Atlanta, GA. As you can see by this detailed Wikipedia listing, Lexie is a relentless self promoter.

I respect that Wikipedia exists as a free enclyopedia enabling anyone to make edits. However, when it's abused to cause insult or inflict harm on someone or something it should not be tolerated. The last line of the above paragraph was added to my wikipedia entry and I would like to user to be banned from accessing my entry so that further more hinderous comments are not allowed. I have deleted the entry, but I know this will only be the beginning of something and I'd like to put an end to it here and now. "69.180.19.234 00:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)"


 * Much as I understand the discomfort this can cause, there's not really much we can do here. The edit was by an anonymous editor (that is, not logged in), and was the only edit ever from that IP address (or, for that matter, from the hotel that editor appeared to be staying at.) --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 00:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll keep an eye on your article, for you. --Haemo 01:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * FYI, under certain conditions (such as potentially libellous information), problematic revisions can be permanently removed from the visible history - even to admins. This can be done using Oversight - see here for details. Od Mishehu 03:50, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Gene Wojciechowski
I'm having trouble with a couple of IP addresses that keep changing the Gene Wojciechowski to make half the substance of the article consist of an allegation of racism. The edits are quite clearly agenda-driven and disproportionately slant the article. I could use some help in perhaps warning these IP addresses or reverting the page. Chicken Wing 00:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a bit contentious - I do feel it should be mentioned, though I do think there is a little too much information that the IP is adding. The sources appear to be emails but I don't think those are verifiable in that case.  Also, they ask users to buy the complete document, making this a not-so-reliable source, in my opinion.  Personally, I would like that paragraph to be trimmed down and some more solid sources to be used rather than things that ask you to buy the full article.  x42bn6 Talk Mess  01:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I looked into this a few months ago and it's all reliable sources cited... it just seems like undue weight. I think this version is about right. I'd say this is a WP:BLP issue but that would probably get the article instantly deleted without discussion... --W.marsh 03:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Page Move Vandal- User:NavalPower
- In closing: Revert, block, ignore. Teke talk 04:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC) User:NavalPower is moving pages. --RabidMonkeysEatGrass 03:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow, reverting all those edits is going to take a long time... -N 03:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I strongly suggest everybody stop what they're doing and let the admins do their job. Any more page moving around just adds to the confusion. Sean William 03:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * And I suggest anyone who knows where the Seattle article went to post it on this page. — Kyриx  03:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It's been fixed.  Teke talk 03:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Good job Sean, I'll help with the redirects.  Teke talk 03:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Holy freaking crap, it looks like a lot of them haven't been fixed. Use the last 500 contributions list... Grand  master  ka  03:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Everything fixed...finally. — Kyриx  03:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Good job, everyone. Sean William 03:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks like they're all done & the redirs deleted. Geez - A l is o n  ☺ 03:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Whew. I think my deletion count just went up +150 :). Sean William 03:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to all who helped :). WjBscribe 03:53, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

See. Help in reverting appreciated. WjBscribe 04:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Page move vandal is back
 * Keep an eye on the move logs, all. This should stop being fun for the vandal since it has been had.  WP:RBI and let's have them lose interest.   Teke talk 04:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * All done, I think. Nice of them to tip you off, hm? - A l is o n  ☺ 04:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

User:UBX/Suicide at WP:DRV
Can someone please close this? It's been open since the 17th and I think a consensus can be read from the debate. Mango juice talk 17:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Even though I've withdrawn my opinion, I've participated in the discussion enough that I shouldn't close it. I agree that it is ready for close, but the relisting earlier today has probably moved it off Xoloz's radar, and the other regular DRV closers have almost all opined in the discussion.  GRBerry 20:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I've got to learn to do it sometime. I think the consensus is pretty clear, especially weighing the strength of the arguments. If somebody decides I've done it wrongly, either in substance or in form, please do correct it; I won't be upset. William Pietri 03:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Mechanically correct. I also believe the right decision was made.  The amount of explanation is a matter of individual judgement; which I make on a case by case basis myself.  GRBerry 13:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It seemed a little wordy to me, but I wanted to make sure everybody felt heard, and to allow people to check my newbie-closer thinking. I'm sure if I do a bunch of these I'll become much more terse. :-) -- William Pietri 14:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Warren Allen Smith and Philosopedia
The above-mentioned User is egregiously spamming Wikipedia with his website, Philosopedia. On many pages he uses this Wiki site he founded in external links, or as a primary source. Another issue is he is linking words in articles like "secular humanism" not to Wikipedia, but to Philosopedia with an external redirect. A search for Philosopedia comes up with many articles where this has transpired. He is also spamming project pages asking for help with Philosopedia. --David Shankbone 17:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I looked a few examples. He provides links to his site as "External links". These links seem to be completely appropriate and convenient for reader since they provide some helpful information not included in the corresponding WP article. I think he is not spamming but improves WP articles. Biophys 18:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

These sorts of examples go on and on. Aside from Conflict of Interest issues, Wikifying links to redirect to one's own website is the very definition of SPAM. --David Shankbone 18:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Philosopedia is a Wiki site, meaning that it's information may or may not be accurate; it is not a peer-reviewed or journalistic site. Also, linking terms found inside Wikipedia, secular humanism for example, and taking them outside to his own website is certainly spam.  Third, asking for help on his website to project pages, such as he has done twice.  Here are some examples of Mr. Smith's "improvements":
 * 1) *.org/index.php/Arthur_Ochs_Sulzberger_Jr. Sulzberger Jr. is an agnostic, according to Philosopedia.
 * 2) "A June 1969 Stonewall riots veteran, I have practiced what the present WikiProject preaches. Some entries have already been added as "external links" to Wikipedia. But with no staff, I've made errors and welcome volunteers who can help by correctly Wikifying entries such as the following, as well as suggesting new ones:"diff
 * 3) Asked about philosophy in 1951, when he was a member of the .org/index.php/American_Academy_of_Arts_and_Letters American Academy of Arts and Letters, he responded that he was a .org/index.php/Van_Wyck_Brooks secular humanist and .org/index.php/Naturalism naturalist. (from Van Wyck Brooks)


 * Garden-variety spam. I have warned Smith that if he continues the site will be blacklisted. Guy (Help!) 18:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I can agree that this is advertisement, but his external links in the articles did not seem to  advertise his site, but provided some additional information. So, the redirection to "one's own website is the very definition of SPAM".  I did not realize that.Biophys 19:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The link summaries made it pretty clear that he is promoting himself, his website and his agenda. Guy (Help!) 13:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * See also, , . I spy vanispamcruftisement. Guy (Help!) 22:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Right. There is no questions that he trying to make self-promotion in WP. But he also seems to be a notable and intelligent person, who might actually help to improve WP. So, may be one should not consider all his activities as entirely destructive and antagonize him by deleting all his links? Biophys 23:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That's one of the strangest reasons I've seen to allow someone to SPAM Wikipedia (using three User names) for his own website that competes with Wikipedia (which explains why he doesn't particularly add content, just links).  --David Shankbone 23:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Clear and straight forward case of linkspam coupled with a clear COI - he should suggest his links on the talkpages and then leave it to other editors. --Fredrick day 23:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It's a one-man band site anyway and therefore is not the sort of high-quality link we want to be adding. --Fredrick day 23:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * He may seem to be a notable person, but there is a fair bit of self-promotion among the sources which say so. Guy (Help!) 16:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a confusing issue. He is published, but a 2,000 printing by a small press.  He has about 330 Google hits for his name (once repeats are factored out).  Right now his Wikipedia page, Warren Allen Smith, written by himself, is a resume of everything he has written, contributed to, or appeared in.  It would be worthwhile to get some input from other editors on that page.  --David Shankbone 16:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

POV edits relating to Binary Economics
I am concerned about a number of edits made to pages such as Riba, Monetary reform, Geothermal power, Solar cell and others regarding Binary economics. The problem is that the edits typically add very POV pitches for Binary Economics to only marginally related topics, and often include those pitches in prominent positions such as the introduction. The edits in question were made by user:Rodney Shakespeare (see Special:Contributions/Rodney_Shakespeare).

There are too many affected articles for me to deal with tonight, and I am not comfortable stepping in potential edit war territory (not that there is anything like that yet). So if someone more experienced could look over a few of them and maybe leave a message on the user's talk page, that would be helpful. marginoferror 05:55, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Good sweet mike - those articles are disaster areas. I'm trying to fix this up, but holy cow.  Especially Binary Economics, which needs a total re-write.  --Haemo 06:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't suppose we've got a What were you smoking? template? --Carnildo 06:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm been spending my evening, before Law and Order trying to re-write this mess. In addition, from my reading in the course of this editing, user:Rodney Shakespeare has a serious conflict of interest editing articles about this topic - given that his entirely livelihood centers around it, and he's sourced no fewer than 20 times in the article in question  --Haemo
 * My word - almost of all of his edits had to be removed, or seriously edited down. This is basically just self-promotional canvassing to promote his pet theory.  --Haemo 07:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot, Haemo. I noticed the conflict of interest too.  I think it would be best to notify the user on his talk page about these issues; honestly, I expect a fight or at least a long discussion, and I'd rather it happen there than on the articles.  I'm on my way out the door, but if no-one has notified him by the time I get back from work, I will try to do it myself.  marginoferror 11:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Mikkalai RfC
Somebody filed a user-conduct RfC against User:Mikkalai. I think it's invalid and am considering to delete it. Please see my comments at Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Mikkalai. Thanks, Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm confused - if it wasn't listed at WP:RFC/U, then how did the second editor even find it? I know I only found it when it was listed there.  --Haemo 08:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted and delisted the RfC. See my comments on its talk page for detail. In light of strange happenings that took place after I deleted RfC/Kelly Martin (4) a few weeks ago, I feel compeled to instruct other administrators to please ensure that the talk page remains undeleted. El_C 18:17, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Block-evading sockpuppet
Right after Juro was blocked indef (for the second time, after some probation), up pops Koonjo28, starts to [ edit the same pages as Juro used to], including [ Juro's userpage], and vandalises [ the userpage of the admin who blocked Juro]. Please block. Thanks, KissL 09:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Attended to. -- Hoary 09:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Request to block sockpuppet of banned editor
is a clear sockpuppet of. Please block, thanks. One Night In Hackney 303  11:11, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 13:54, 24 May 2007 Alison (Talk | contribs | block) blocked "Marylee Gupta (contribs)" (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Abusing multiple accounts: Sock of RMS) --<b style="color:#22AA00;">Zsinj</b><sup style="color:#888888;">Talk 14:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Hinngonowbenny
Keeps vandalising the Benny Hinn page with idiotic comments. Gareth E Kegg 12:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Ifdef blocked by The Anome -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 13:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Sacrumi
Apparently, newbie user Sacrumi is a troll, who has taken hostage of the "diplom" article. User engages in edit warring and makes unfounded and awkward contributions in horrible English while removing credible/cited information. When approached with the issue, user makes personal attacks. Please see the series of recent edits by user. InfoAgent 14:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't see trolling; I see a newbie editor who's a little rough around the edges and a garden-variety content dispute. There's been incivility on both sides; the best approach is for both of you to step back from editing the article, and discuss concrete proposed changes on the talk page. If you can extend a little patience, things may smooth over. If not, it would be best handled via dispute resolution, through a third opinion or request for comment on the content issue at hand. I don't see any cause for administrative intervention at this point, nor do I see a "good guy" and "bad guy" - just two editors with different ideas on how to improve the article who are getting a little hot under the collar. Other thoughts? MastCell Talk 15:50, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Block Evasion by User:Matrix17
See also [archived discussion].

Matrix17's previous block expired. She returned and created Ebba von Sydow. She was immediately re-blocked for creating a non-notable biography. Unfortunately, the biography wasn't non-notable and survived AfD as a strong keep. This would seem to invalidate the reason for the most recent block. Matrix17 therefore requested to be unblocked. The admin rejecting the unblock stated as a reason, "Yawn." I asked this admin for a further explanation and learned that Matrix17 has a long and sordid history. Unfortunately, this user hasn't been formally banned, so she has a right to return when her block expires, and we can't just block her again until she actually does something wrong. Matrix17 then started using the IP listed to repeatedly post to WP:AN out of frustration at what seems to be on it's face an unfair situation. That's block evasion, yet another issue.

I am not nearly smart enough to figure out how to resolve all this, but hopefully some of you are. Perhaps this user should be banned or unblocked, but the current position seems half-assed not well planned or executed. Jehochman ☎ / ✔ 14:55, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * IP has been blocked for 3 months as well. Given Matrix17's history, I see no reason to refactor either block.  If Matrix17 comes back and demonstrates that he/she has learned from his/her past mistakes, great.  If not, he/she will likely be blocked again.--Isotope23 15:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not trying to advocate here, but would like to understand better. Presumably, the user was blocked for 6 months for creating a nn-bio.  The bio was then decided to meet the criteria for inclusion via a keep decision at AFD.  Were there other bio's which were created which did not survive deletion which I don't see in the logs?  Wouldn't you conclude that the 6 month block should be rescinded based on this?  If not, presumably there is additional reason for the block which was not expressed. --After Midnight 0001 16:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * See User talk:Steel359. – Steel 16:42, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * If someone wants to request an unblock or refactor from, or if wants to request an unblock, he/she is free to do so.  I don't want to speak for Yamla in any way here, but I suspect that the block was influenced by Matrix17's history here (i.e. creating low quality poorly sourced content about marginal subjects and then responding to any requests by other editors that he follow the Manual of Style and our guidelines/policies with wikilawyering and argumentative claims that everyone is against him/her.  Given that Matrix17 has routinely returned from blocks and gone right back to this behavior, I personally don't see a compelling reason to unblock.  Creating a large number of substandard articles that need extensive cleanup and sourcing to demonstrate notability doesn't help the project and Matrix17's tendentious editing practices just make it worse.  It's about more than just the Ebba von Sydow article, it's a pattern of behavior that doesn't help the encyclopedia in any way.--Isotope23 16:53, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. – Steel 17:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The bio did indeed survive an AfD. However, the article as initially created by Matrix17 most certainly was not sufficient. Now, if someone else wishes to unblock Matrix17 and will monitor to make sure future articles meet WP:BIO, I would not object and would not consider it wheel-warring. However, it seems clear to me that this user does not yet understand the notability requirements (shown by continued creation of substandard articles) and so I am not intending on unblocking. Especially if the user is violating WP:SOCK. --Yamla 17:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Give the current request spamming by at Unblock-en-l with rather silly name calling directed at  and  I think it is safe to say that as of right now Matrix17 does not deserve to be unblocked.--Isotope23 17:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Nope, I'm fine with all the explanations above. I knew there had to be something more, thanks for your responses. --After Midnight 0001 17:11, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I am fine with the above resolution. Steel, thank you for blocking the sock. Jehochman ☎ / ✔ 18:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Strange account
I've just come across the userpage of User:Mscomic and I am wondering what is the stance to adopt (beside looking away) with that kind of users. He didn't do anything wrong that I know of, beside writing a weird message on my talk page. -- lucasbfr <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk 16:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Mscomic's userpage reflects a declared intention to edit for the purpose of disrupting Wikipedia. ("Wikipedia is a place for people like me to talk absoloute rubbish and spread mischievous rumours and falsehoods. Join me in my goal to annoy the moderators....") Accordingly, I have blocked this account indefinitely. Newyorkbrad 16:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok thanks, the "don't preventively protect a page" rule was making me wonder :) -- lucasbfr <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk 16:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

User: Roswalt44
This user has engaged in vandalism past warnings. His/her first vandalism was, and shortly after vandalized the same page , and vandalized said page with the previous vandalism after it was reverted at. They vandalized it one more time at, which I reverted and added a warning. Only then I realized he had numerous past warnings from vandalizing KFC, Scott Goodman, and added gibberish nonsense to Zimbabwe. His warnings can be found here at. This user is very disruptive to Wikipedia, has attacked Wiki multiple times past warnings and must be stopped ASAP. Deletion Quality 17:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Although this person hasn't vandalized in a day, it's abundantly clear that they aren't here to help. In the future, please report things like these to WP:AIV. Cheers, Sean William 17:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Deletion Quality 17:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Merkey, again
Despite allegedly being on "wikibreak", user Jeff Merkey continues to be disruptive. See this diff, where he vandalizes a talk page based on unproven allegations of sockpuppetry against other users. *Dan T.* 16:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That's not vandalism. Jeff attempted to revert User:RhodiumMiner who was shuffling other peoples comments around the page. Given the name and edit history there isn't much doubt this is a single purpose trolling account. I'm reverting RhodiumMiner's edits and blocking him. --Duk 17:15, 19 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, the user was copying the comments. The comments stayed in their original locations, and a copy was placed in the Straw Poll, and only where they were germane to the poll.  There were plenty of other comments that were against the removal of all the tribes, but did not specifically answer the poll, and they weren't copied. The first one copied supported Jeff's case, so it can hardly be seen to be trolling (apparent trollish username aside).  The comments that were clogging up the poll were then moved to the bottom of the poll, and they were labelled where they came from.  A note at the bottom explaining exactly what had been done was included.
 * Pretty useful all around, it was certainly much easier to see what was going on. If an individual user had a problem with their comments being copied, then that would be fair enough, and they could pull them out.
 * It doesn't take much to see that Jeff's wholesale removals aren't popular, and his arguments regarding WP:V are not convincing. His complete dismissal of the validity of anthropoligical evidence and insistance on a single criteria makes it difficult for any consensus with him.
 * The sensible approach would be to admit his valid point regarding federal recognition, and note those that have it, and include the other tribes where there is other sufficient evidence. SeparateReality 05:41, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This account is another sockpuppet of vigilant -- the name is from personal attacks "Merkey lives in a separate reality" used by vigilant on SCOX -- another single purpose troll account. These people have access to botnets so checkuser may not reveal much.  Their editing patterns give them away. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 14:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It seemed from looking at the diff that Merkey was deleting several users' comments, and made the edit summary "Remove edits of banned user Vigilant", implying that he was being judge, jury, and executioner on an alleged sockpuppet (without actually going through proper channels of requesting a checkuser). *Dan T.* 17:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I assumed the removal was unintentional. The RhodiumMiner name comes from the SCOX message board. --Duk 17:33, 19 May 2007 (UTC)


 * And your proof is???... I see nothing disruptive in the editing and yet Jeff is allowed to make edits while on a wikibreak and admins are around to support him. Jeff has no idea who the editor is and neither do you without a usercheck. --Jerry (Talk) 00:44, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Checkuser isn't needed for a single purpose trolling account with an inflammatory name that is brought in from an off-site conflict. I note that you are active on the SCOX message board so you should understand how this account name is inflammatory - and yet here you are saying that you see nothing disruptive by that particular username tinkering with a conflict that Jeff is engaged in? Jerryg, you might want to think about this. The only problem I see here is identifying the account as a specific sockpuppet, I'll remove that note. But the block is perfectly acceptable.


 * ...and yet Jeff is allowed to make edits while on a wikibreak' Jeff may edit whenever he wants. He's not blocked or banned. Do you know what a wikibreak is Jerryg? It's when an editor takes a break and puts a wikibreak note up to let people know that they might take a while to respond to any notes left for them. --Duk 02:15, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. Yes, I post on Yahoo! SCOX board. I post on a lot of boards. Jeff posts on a lot of boards, including SCOX, LKML and Wikireview. Jeff tends to make the assumption that *anyone* who disagrees with him is a troll and somehow connected with the SCOX board. Whatever you and Jeff have read while perusing that board means nothing, really. You *really* don't know where and who made the edits. If the name wasn't what it was, would the edits have been disruptive? Jeff's claims of owning a Rhodium Mine are fairly well known within a fairly large group of people, a large number of which have nothing to do with Yahoo! SCOX. In the end, of course, wikipedia admins will have the last say. I hope, for all involved, we don't go down the same path we went down the last time Jeff was here. I've had my say and am done with this --Jerry (Talk) 02:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Whether or not RhodiumMiner is a sockpuppet is one question, but it's not just him/her/it that Mr Merkey has been busily labelling. My account got a "sockpuppet" tag (I'm a sock of "Talks_to_birds", apparently).  It's not the first time Mr Merkey has labelled me as such, my initial questions regarding his tagging everyone as trolls were instantaneously reverted out of his talk page. here and here.  I have since explained my motivations (on Talk:Cherokee) in direct response to a question from Mr Merkey, but he still labels me as a sockpuppet.  It would be nice if there was a reason for this other than "Mr Merkey thinks so".Teseaside 08:32, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This account is a single purpose troll account. The edit history speaks for itself. Also, talks_to_birds, based upon his claims to be the proprieter of finchhaven and his public statements on Wikipedia he lives on Vason Island in Washington, "next to T(h)e sea side". Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 14:25, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Teseaside (talk · contribs) has emailed me in private using his ISP-based email address and I can tell you from the headers that his claims of residing in France are indeed true. I think you're jumping to conclusions with this one. --  Netsnipe  ►  06:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Explanation of these folks intent

I am going to take a moment to explain these folks from SCOX and their behavior. They have only one intention, and that's to "ambush" me here at Wikipedia and make life so miserable that 1) I leave or 2) I flip out to te point I get blocked. All one need do is review their posts at SCOX (thousands upon thousands) to realize these people are stalking. Their motiviations are blackmail, jealousy, and tortious interference. Several of them have sent letters, called me on the phone, posted demands in online forums, etc. demanding money or jobs or some other garbage to stop their stalking conduct. These gadfly's started following me around after I offered to buy out a Linux license for 50K for Solera Networks. Not for Gadugi or anything else. The most recent incident occurred two weeks ago when one of the more phychotic of the lot sent letters to the attorneys handling the lawsuit over Natural Selection Foods and the E Coli poisoning of my 2 year old son libelling me. This psycho then sent a letter to Randall Spencer demanding money from me or they would keep sending out hate mail. Most of these folks smell the money and that's what they are after. The rest of them appear to be bent on just destroying any enterprise I try to start. They send letters and anonymous emails to business partners, associates, customers, etc. Bottom line, its jealousy, greed, and hate directed at someone who succeeds as opposed to a bunch of has beens, fired employees, and jilted business associates from the Linux movement who tried to stick their hands in my pockets to take money out and got sent on their way. Hope this gives folks an idea. You cannot reason with them, you cannot teach them, most of them are over 40, you can only block them. Don't waste your time with them. Were I am admin here, they would not dare set foot on this site for the purpose of this conduct -- they know I would block them on sight. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 14:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * These gadfly's started following me around after I offered to buy out a Linux license for 50K for Solera Networks. Not for Gadugi or anything else.  Really?  Then why did you say at http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/linux/kernel/501632 "The purpose behind the buyout was to convert as much Linux code over as possible to another open source operating system project which is sponsored at www.gadugi.org. This project is hosted by the Cherokee Nation and is sovereign under US Federal Laws. This project is merging the Linux Kernel with the Open Source NetWare project and distributing the operating system. The site is operational and the full code repository will be posted with the merged operating system after the Cherokee Nation Public License is published in January."  Inquiring minds want to know.


 * Well, it's a good thing you're not an admin then... it's never a good idea for somebody with a personal involvement in a conflict to be exercising admin powers over people in it... that's too much of a conflict of interest. Can you actually prove such assertions as that people are demanding money from you to stop hassling you?  I seem to recall that you made such assertions in the course of some of your legal cases, and never did back them up then either. *Dan T.* 15:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree, but that's ok. As for your other question, yes, Randall Spencer has copies of two letters, one sent to Mordeci, the firm representing Natural Selections Foods, and another letter from this person sent to him, and he represents my son (not me).  This person also called Randall Spencer on the phone.  My wife and I are no longer involved in the case since its about our son.  The first letter was a smearing attack on me and offer to "help" nsfoods "defeat" "my evil claims" about my baby boy being hospitalized for a month, nearly dying, and my wife in a state that is indescribable.  The second letter demanded money from me for this person stopping "use of free speech" to continue these attacks.   He then followed it up with a phone call the Randall Spencer making more forceful demands for money.  All of this was reported to me about a week after it happened -- I did not witness it directly.    My son has some permanent health issues from all this.  For an individual, group, or community like SCOX to do such a thing over issues with an innocent 2 year old just to demand money from me is beyond evil.  Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 16:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Those who are interested in seeing what type of a person Merkey is, and what degree of credibility any claims of his should be given, should read his complaint in a past lawsuit, where he goes on and on about how the open source community is supporting Al Qaida and other terrorism (while also noting that he tried, and failed, to launch an open source project himself), and makes bizarre accusations of conspiracies to murder him (apparently one such case actually consisted of somebody saying in an online forum that Merkey should be put in an e-mail killfile, which he interpreted as a "list of people to be killed" physically). Thus, nobody should put the slightest scintilla of credibility in any assertion this guy makes. *Dan T.* 16:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Dan T. your last edit to this section doesn't belong here. Do you understand why that is? --Duk 16:17, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I guess it might be seen as a personal attack... though it's only a link to his own legal filing, not anybody's attack on it. *Dan T.* 16:18, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * No, that's not it. The reason it doesn't belong here is that it's unrelated crap that you are dredging up to run down another editor. It doesn't have anything to do with the post that started this section. --Duk 16:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If Merkey can bring in stuff from other places, forums, and situations to justify his own attacks on other editors, why is it wrong when I do it? Are you going to give Merkey a warning for his "Explanation of these folks intent" section? *Dan T.* 16:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Because Merkey isn't stalking people who are honestly trying to do work here, it's the other way around. He's defending himself. He didn't open this door. And most of the stuff Merkey brings up is relevant to the stalking. Dan, I've assumed the best intentions from you so far, but that's starting to run out. --Duk 16:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)--Kebron 18:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No, Merkey is accusing ANYONE who disagrees with him of trolling, sock puppetry. It is irrelevant if the corrections are true or not they are removed. It is irrelevant is one has proof of sock puppetry, it is irrelevant that no check user has been done, Merkey is right. Sorry,  this premise is unacceptable. According to a sitting judge, "Merkey is not just prone to exaggeration, he also is and can be deceptive, not only to his adversaries, but also to his own partners, his business associates and to the court. He deliberately describes his own, separate reality."
 * This is from a court document. A judge said this in an open court room. Merkey has been banned before for behavior similar to this. I fail to understand why now that he begins again EXACTLY as before, why it is NOW acceptable. --Kebron 17:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * That document is a preliminary ruling in a case that was settled and never went to trial and that happened 11 years ago. Its also the work of a Judge who was removed from the case by the Utah Judicial Conduct Commission for conducting secret meetings with Novell and its attorneys.  It was also written by attorneys at parsons, behle, and latimer and not the court (hence his removal).  Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 17:47, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * To Kebron, Merkey was reverting a single purpose trolling account that was shuffling talk page comments around. What does some unrelated lawsuit have to do with that? Your last post doesn't belong here either, Kebron. I've assumed the best intentions from you so far, but that's starting to run out.--Duk 17:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Once again, why is HE allowed to accuse everyone and puppetry and of trolling without proof. --Kebron 18:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Kebron, are you honestly disputing that is a single purpose trolling account? --Duk 18:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yet I was accused, where is the proof? DTobias was accused... once again... where is proof? I stepped away... watching the madness continue and it just gets worse and worse. It would not surprise me if HE would be doing it himself... has someone actually done a checkuser... on ANY account? --Kebron 18:12, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * You didn't answer the question, Kebron. This section is about . It's also now about your trolling. Tell me, Kebron, what does some court document from more than a decade ago have to do with Jeff reverting a blatant troll.--Duk 18:21, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, the people demanding that checkuser be run are often people who know how to circumvent it. --Duk 18:25, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * OK... I agree... he is one troll.... but has anyone checked THE IP address of said troll, against the others or against Merkey. Court documents also give a personality of the person concerned. Merkey has been banned before as well. This has no relation at on on him? My edits were simply removed... why??? Because I was a troll according to him. It was irrelevant if my edits were correct or not. I gave up. I stopped. Now... DTobias is the next. As an admin could you do a checkuser on all the users concerned please? What are the results?--Kebron 18:32, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't have check user authority, but you can request one at Requests for checkuser. My edits were simply removed... why??? Because I was a troll according to him. ... Well, you've been following him around on this website for a year and a half. --Duk 18:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Best method to ascertain who is who is to use ocams razor. Accounts which are dormant for months then all of sudden become active again simply to follow me from article to article and revert, argue, straw poll, etc. are single purpose accounts here to harrass.  Kebron is one of these.  You can simply review their utter lack of useful contributions.  As I stated previously, trying to reason with these people is pointless.  If you block them they just come back with a plaethera of sockpuppets.   They also have insiders in the Community to act the same way they do.  If they appear to be stalking, they they probably are.  Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 18:36, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Part of my taking the time here is for the benefit of the admin community. I mean, just look at it! Jeff reverts a simple troll and it brings down a hailstorm of indignant chest thumping that goes on and on and on -- by a never ending stream of sister trolls! Utterly amazing. --Duk 18:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If I was acting like Merkey, I could accuse you of being a sockpuppet of Merkey. But, I won't... Now, comments from Merkey like : "...I will remove any content about them placed into this article under WP:V. They are not indians, they are not Cherokee, and they make false claims they are Federally recognized. They may have their own article titled "Southern Cherokee Wannabees" or "Southern Cherokee Fake Tribe who claim they are Federally Recognized are are not" or some other title that drops the Federal BIA desgination "Nation" as unverified. Wikiality does not work with unverified materials. Sorry. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 23:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)" A debate the continues in the "real" world. It is not resolved in the "real" world. Yet... in comes Mr Merkey stating THIS is the authority, end of story. Unacceptable. Like I said before, I have had it. Y'all decide what you want. I am done. I have said my piece. Wikipedia and Merkey. A match made in purgatory. Enjoy each other. --Kebron 19:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This section is about Merkey reverting a simple troll. Did you miss that part, Kebron? -- Duk 19:38, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, one more think Kebron. This is at least the second time you've promised to be done with Merkey. here is you previous promise. Please try to be as good as your word this time. --Duk


 * Duk, you're somewhat wrong. User:Kebron isn't a troll in the manner that the User:RhodiumMiner etc are, or even the manner that I supposedly am (i.e. someone who watches this mess with interest and therefore is subject to the wrath of Jeff from time to time) . You have to seperate the very few people here (maybe just one) solely for the purpose of taunting Merkey, such as User:RhodiumMiner or User:SeperateReality, with people who are genuinely worried about some of his more pisspoor and self-aggrandising edits, his agenda-pushing, ignoring of consensus, his habitual assumptions of bad faith, his ridiculous accusations of vandalism, trolling and even spambotting and use of bizarre legal sort-of-threats to get his way. Jeff is just one big ball of Wikipedia disruption, even if you do disregard the actions of the one or two bona fide trolls deliberately goading Jeff (Jeff's vanity does make that an endlessly entertaining sport, alas). Kebron is a good faith editor who just happens to be embroiled in this saga. --Aim Here 09:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Duk, you're somewhat wrong. User:Kebron isn't a troll... Hmmm ... Jeff properly reverts a troll; Kebron responds with seething personal attacks and - you just can't make this stuff up - dredging up old court documents from some lawsuit. And you guys think Jeff is a little odd? As for the rest of your post, there are some grains of truth there, rolled up in trolling, personal attacks and intentional disruption. --Duk 18:57, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, since someone suggested a CheckUser, RhodiumMiner = SeparateReality = ThreeVryl, which was pretty obvious already. Dmcdevit·t 20:52, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * What about the others? Merkey seems to be happily throwing accusations of "botting", "sockpuppeting" and "trolling" all over the place with blatant disregard for WP policy, and nobody is picking him up on this.  His latest set of accusations are over on the Mountain_Meadows_Massacre page where he appears to be trying to get the mormons all riled up.  Honestly, the biggest troll of the lot is none other than Jeffrey Vernon Merkey.

Mountain Meadows massacre
Mountain Meadows massacre is again facing protection because Merkey is perpetuating an edit war there, re-adding disputed edits almost immediately after the article was un-protected yesterday, and labeling the subsequent reverts as vandalism. He is also attacking editors (mostly via edit summary) who dispute his edits. I can provide diffs if requested. I personally feel that his behavior is disruptive, and I invite admins here to take a look and judge for themselves. Thanks, alanyst /talk/ 17:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * There are a large number of editors failing to observe WP:OWN on that article. They roost on it and revert edits with a remote spambot based at BYU.  Anyone who edits the article gets accussed of being an anti-mormon (they are all LDS church members) and accussed of disruption. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 17:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

These are extraordinary claims. (A remote spambot based at BYU???) They should be accompanied by extraordinary evidence to support them; else they are simply baseless attacks. alanyst /talk/ 22:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I live 20 minutes from BYU. How many times have you been in the LDS Church data center?  I've been there several times.  I sold tons of equipment into there.  Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 01:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe that non-sequitur translates to "I have no evidence". alanyst /talk/ 02:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The edit history on the article is the evidence. Rotating IP addresses accross wide IP ranges and proxy servers with the same statement "remove anti-mormon POV" at regular time intervals, like a timer is going off.   Excuse me, but I know LDS culture and the term "anti-mormon" is a vulgar stereotype and inappropriate personal attack.  Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 03:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Please be more specific. Which diffs in the history?  What is the regular time interval?  Which proxy servers are involved?  I see no edits like the ones you describe, so I need your help in identifying them.  alanyst /talk/ 03:53, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * alan, lets move on to discuss the content. The article should remain semi-protected IMHO.  Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 04:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Then I see no reason to pursue this further on this page, for my part. If you are not going to acknowledge that your attacks were unfounded and apologize for them, then I leave this conversation for others to judge and take action, if any is warranted. alanyst /talk/ 04:39, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Alan, Here are some diffs for you.
 * 07:06, 21 May 2007 207.179.28.20 (Talk) (42,254 bytes) (rv anti-mormon POV changes. Please discuss these changes on the talk page before making them again)
 * 06:37, 21 May 2007 65.54.155.43 (Talk) (42,254 bytes) (enough "anti" POV -- revert to earlier version on 20th May. Take all future changes to the talk page.)

Two accusations of "anti-mormon" edits. How about "pro-truth" and "pro-WP:V" instead. At 30 minutes appart no less. I believe a person posted them, after getting alerts from a monitoring system (like the ones we build). The IP Addresses of one of these comes from a known spam proxy in CO that appears to edit predominantly LDS Church articles. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 05:02, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Regardless of whether they are "Pro Mormon", they do not back up your wild accusations of coming from BYU, or being remote spambots. 65.54.155.43 is located in Ocala, Florida, and 207.179.28.20 is owned by Virtela Communications, Inc, and may well be located in Colorado. Neither are at BYU.


 * Now, as to whether they are spambots or not, I would suspect they are, in fact, merely people who disagreed with your somewhat radical edits. The diffs, which I note you didn't link to, support this hypothesis. and . These edits merely form part of an ongoing edit war, the combatants in which seem to be you vs everyone else. Again, what we see is Jeffrey Vernon Merkey not getting his way and flinging mud at all who stand in his way. If you think someone is a troll or a sockpuppet, report it. If you think an IP address is a spambot, report it. There are procedures for this. You're not making any friends here with your current behaviour. But you knew that.

Note to administrators: This appears to be resolved -- at least, it's now being addressed at an RfC regarding Merkey's behavior. alanyst /talk/ 22:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Disruptive Pattern of Behavior by AKliman
The same editor, Andrew Kliman - who just a few days ago demanded that another editor place $10,000 in an escrow account as a precondition for him re-filing a request for mediation (which was discussed in this forum) - has continued his pattern of disruptive behavior. More recently, he deleted the RFCs posted on RFC/ECON posted by another editor. He did this to 3 different RFCs, one of them twice. RFCs are an important part of the dispute resolution process at Wikipedia and their deletion was a very serious offense as it was an attack on the entire Wikipedia community. The same editor then altered the content of WP:SHUN so that it now allows for the questioning of "disruptive" editors in an effort to get those editors to "reveal" their "motives" and as a "behavior modification technique"! The same editor then used that changed guideline on the TSSI talk page as a rationalization to ask aggressive and disruptive questions and thereby harass WP:HARASS another editor. Watchdog07 12:19, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * J.smith suggested writing a 'user conduct RFC'. What's the point?  He has already repeatedly deleted RFCs which I have authored and no administrator has done anything about that. Why should I - or any Wikipedian - continue to author RFCs if other editors can simply delete them?  If no action is taken against Andrew Kliman then you will be sending a message to Wikipedians that the RFC process no longer means anything.  If that's the case, why have it as a part of the dispute resolution process?  Watchdog07 23:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * First, long story short, Andrew Kliman did not "demand" any money. I discussed this with him and I will attest to this in detail if necessary, but it's a dead horse now so let's stop beating it if we could, please. On the current matter, User:Akliman is not an admin so he can't "delete" anything. What exactly do you mean? Did he blank RFC requests somewhere? If you could provide diffs that would be a big help. It's very difficult to follow up on your statement without diffs. Finally, his edits to WP:SHUN were allowed; in general, anyone may modify a Wikipedia page according to editorial discretion. Other users disagreed with him and reverted his changes. No big deal. Separate from that is any questioning, itself. If you feel that Akliman was disruptive in questioning you or other editors, diffs would help. ··coe l acan 00:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * First, he did demand that money be placed in an escrow account of his attorney as a pre-condition for his re-filing a RFM. I have read all of what transpired. Have you? In blanking the offensive paragraph, this is what he wrote: "blanked para because I was compelled to, under threat of being blocked".  He was referring to what you allegedly had written when he wrote "compelled" and "threat".  I, of course, did not view what wrote as a "threat".  You can call it a "dead horse" if you want to - I will continue to cite it as evidence of a pattern of disruption and bad faith.  Next, the editing of WP:SHUN was also part of that pattern of disruption as the other editors of the essay clearly saw.  Lastly, as I wrote previously, he blanked three different RFCs which I sent (one he blanked twice) to the RFC/ECON page.  It's all there in the history of that page. Watchdog07 11:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I should have checked on his latest messages before replying: there is yet another example of disruption by Andrew Kliman: he demanded that Giano II, who may or may not also go by the user name of Bishonen , blank a part of his user talk page and implied that if he didn't do so Kliman has a right to blank, i.e. vandalize,  a section of his talk page.  Watchdog07 12:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Giano and Bishonen, a pair of socks? Snort. -- ALoan (Talk) 21:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * While I have been patiently awaiting responses from others, Andrew Kliman's harassment and disruptive behavior continues: he actually had the audacity to remove the 'neutrality disputed' tage from the TSSI article. When are you going to do something to stop his abuse of Wikipedia?  Watchdog07 17:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Depending on the level of misrepresentation or abuse present in a message, blanking it from someone else's talk page is not inherently vandalism. Again, for pretty much everything you want admins to look at, you need to provide diffs. It is not obvious to me which edits to which pages you are talking about, without diffs. As to the "demand" you claim happened, it was not a demand. Kliman said he was not interested in taking the time to file another request for mediation if you were going to back out of it again, and he wanted to be assured that you wouldn't do that. He completely left open the option for you to file the request for mediation instead. A "demand" that leaves a person completely free to pursue another option entirely, or no option at all, is simply not a demand under most people's understanding of the word. I suggest you drop this one, because it doesn't imply what you seem to think it implies: disruption. Kliman removed this language entirely when I pointed out that per WP:NLT, we prefer that there be no mention of lawyers 'round these parts. Quick compliance with reasonable request = no disruption. For your other complaints, please provide diffs. ··coe l acan 20:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Is anyone awake on this board? Andrew Kliman - yes, him again! -  continues his abuse of Wikipedia and Wikipedians. New references include his comments on his own user talk page and the comments he made on the talk pages of Giano II and Bishonen.  Then, there's the TSSI article which he reverted once again.  He claims that he can revert the article as many times as he wants to and not violate the 3RR rule. The reason he gives is that the article supposedly violates WP:BLP and he has the right to unilaterally blank out anything he thinks is in violation of that rule.  What he claims to be in violation of BLP is the expression "New Orthodox Marxists" which he himself introduced into the article and properly sourced!  Then, he has the audacity to claim that "New Orthodox Marxists" is the "N-word equivalent" (yes, you read that right) - despite the fact that he introduced what he now calls the "N-word equivalent" into the article to begin with!  While he was reverting the TSSI page he also (repeatedly) took out all of the tags, including the NEUTRALITY tag, and removed links without justification. WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO DO SOMETHING TO STOP HIS ABUSE OF WIKIPEDIA? Watchdog07 20:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

You know, if you tried to sound less like a pundit, maybe someone would pay attention. JuJube 20:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This seems to be about whether proponents of the Temporal single-system interpretation of Marxism can/should be described as "New Orthodox Marxists" (whatever that means) or not.


 * I do not care two figs (one fig) for the argument - I am slightly surprise that people bother arguing about it today; whatever - but the article's recent edit history is just plain shocking. -- ALoan (Talk) 21:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I am not feeling very good about Wikipedia today. Your inactivity is disheartening to say the least.  I have invested a lot of time and effort in Wikipedia - and have edited far more articles than Andrew Kliman and his 3 meatpuppets combined - but I will have to reevaluate my participation in this project.  This would make at least one person very happy since it would allow him to succeed in his effort to get away with his laughably one-sided edits.  Watchdog07 21:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I know Akliman claims he's entitled to revert ad libitum because everything's a BLP violation according to him. I hope you have also read my replies to him on that score.  I have now blocked him for 3RR vio. Bishonen | talk 21:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC).


 * To the people who reply to Watchdog here, by the way: he's a new user (Akliman is fairly new too). It seems a little bitey to me to keep complaining about his style, lack of diffs, etc. Dear reader, how long had you been here before you knew how to make diffs? Me, about six months. Bishonen | talk 21:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC).


 * I am sorry, but for most of these complaints, I do not even know which pages Watchdog is talking about. I linked to help:diff. I don't want to bite, but most of us are unfamiliar with these users. I have had only very minimal interaction with them, and I can't follow the issue without diffs. ··coe l acan 21:49, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I know, but I bet you know how unhelpful help:diff actually is. I'll go offer him a simple diff tutorial. Bishonen | talk 22:04, 22 May 2007 (UTC).


 * I thought it was more coherent than most of the Help namespace. If you write a simpler page, let me know so I can add it to user:coelacan/useful. ··coe l acan 22:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Will do. It's in process. Bishonen | talk 00:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC).

A quick look at the contributions of these two editors is enough to indicate the locus of this dispute, diffs or no. I posted a link to the edit history of the article in question above.

A more troubling question than the blatant edit warring on that page (which is bad enough) is the constant refrain of WP:BLP from an editor who seems to think that the labels attached to an esoteric branch of modern Marxist thinking, and criticism of his own behaviour as an editor, is a BLP issue. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I find this discussion very disturbing because unsubstantiated charges have been leveled against me here. This may affect my reputation.  Unsubstantiated charges have seriously affected my reputation in the past.  I use my own name on Wikipedia and, in case people can't figure out what "Akliman" is short for, "Watchdog07" tells us at the top of this entry.  So I definitely think there is a WP:BLP issue here.


 * The only reason I am not more upset is that coelacan has told the truth, setting the record straight, about some things s/he knows about, for which I am quite grateful.


 * WP:BLP says that controversial material about a living figure must be properly sourced. I simply don't see how "Disruptive Pattern of Behavior" can be properly sourced:  this phrase draws a very negative conclusion about a living person.  It goes well beyond a recitation of facts.


 * I respectfully ask that action promptly be taken to protect me from damage or potential damage to my reputation. Thank you.


 * andrew-the-k 01:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * You think there's a BLP issue because he uses your real name, which is listed on your user page, and accuses you of disruptive behavior? This isn't biographical material. Phony Saint 01:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem seems to be that you use your real name on Wikipedia, plus you edit in a controversial and high-profile manner. Don't do that then. Ceasing to do either of the two would fix the problem. Bishonen | talk 01:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC).


 * Wikipedia isn't for everyone... thats all I got to say about this whole bloody quagmire. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 18:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I examined the phrase "Disruptive Pattern of Behavior" to illustrate that claims are being made that cannot be properly sourced. In terms of the damage to my reputation, however, this is just the tip of the iceberg:


 * Watchdog07 has repeatedly charged that I have committed fraud in a professional capacity by claiming to co-edit a journal that is non-existent. This could potentially jeopardize my job and thus my livelihood. The journal's website is .  For Watchdog07's repeated charges of fraud, see, entries 15, 26, 45, 49, 52, 54, 55, and 67, and , entries 14 and 21.  (This is not the first time I am notifying the Wikipedia administration of this.)


 * At, Watchdog07 refers to my "efforts to subvert and undermine Wikipedia for [my] own personal benefit."


 * Watchdog07 placed a comment on the talk page of someone with whom I have never had any contact whatsoever, claiming that I made an "anti-pluralist, logically inconsistent and duplicitous proposal to suppress the YER [Yale Economic Review] article." See . (I placed a tag that said the article read like an ad; JoshuaZ evidently agreed, since he removed the promotional language in the article.)


 * At, Watchdog07 alleged that an article contains an "external link whose only purpose is to sell a book written by one of the two editors of the article." Readers can easily verify that it is my book.  The external link is to a page on my website which contains short reviews of the book and its Table of Contents, and which links to pages that allow readers to read the start of the Preface and the Index.  The book is not sold at my website.


 * At, Watchdog07 charged that I am a suppressor of ideas and an opponent of pluralism. At , he charged that I am "opposed to pluralism in economics" (I am a co-organizer of an organization, and co-editor of a journal, that are dedicated to pluralism), and he implies that I am "duplicitous," "self-serving," "petty," and "vindictive."


 * These charges, too--and there are more--could potentially jeopardize my job and thus my livelihood. Moreover, all of them are certainly harmful to my professional reputation; this can have financial and other implications.


 * The controversy in which I am embroiled is not one I chose. I was compelled to overhaul the TSSI article because the original version contained many biased, harmful, untrue, and unsourced statements, such as "TSSI claims Karl Marx was literally correct ... and that there are no important logical or mathematical errors in his theory of value"; "supporters of TSSI claim that they have Marxist orthodoxy on their side"; "Supporters of TSSI typically believe that neo-classical economics does not offer any insights or concepts that could be helpful in understanding a capitalist market economy." "[A forthcoming journal consists of] an international academic faction of TSSI sympathisers and supporters."  See  The reason I can speak about these statements being biased, harmful, and untrue is that I am a reliable source for purposes of that article and some related ones. See.


 * If I request an anonymous replacement username, how will I be able to verify that I am a reliable source with respect to some articles I am editing?


 * Also, requesting a new username takes time and is not granted automatically. My professional reputation needs to be protected in the meantime.  Damage has already been done. There are most definitely WP:BLP issues here.  WP:BLP doesn’t pertain just to biographical articles.  It states that "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just highly questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space."  I ask that the material cited above and similar material be removed immediately, or that it be agreed that my removal of it will not be interfered with.


 * In my capacity as a reliable source with respect to the TSSI article, let me note again that the phrase "N___ O___ M___," in the particular context and manner in which Watchdog07 inserted it, is also a WP:BLP issue. Specialized knowledge of the implications of the term makes it easier to understand this, but the very fact that proponents of the TSSI object to the phrase as vociferously as we do should suggest that we don't do so for the hell of it.  We vociferously object to it because it is indeed exceedingly non-neutral and detrimental to the professional reputations of living persons.  For an analogy that requires no specialized knowledge, take the word "pervert."  In the body of an article, it is noted and properly cited that X was charged with being a pervert, and X's denial of the charge is also noted and properly cited.   Then, near the top of the article, W changes "X" to "X, also called a pervert."  W claims that this is ok, given that the word "pervert" is used and sourced elsewhere in the article!   X protests, says it’s a BLP issue, and reverts.  So then W changes "X, also called a pervert," to "X, known to others as a pervert".  X continues to protest, continues to say it is a BLP issue, and continues to revert.  That's what took place. andrew-the-k 03:21, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Sigh. This is yet another instance of the WP:WL that I have been subjected to for an extended period of time.  As noted by another editor, Andrew Kliman chose to use his real name here.  It is not a violation of WP:BLP to refer to someone by their chosen user name(s). This was perhaps an unfortunate choice by Kliman but it was his choice.  What is done is done. If he thought that there were violations of Wiki policies then he should have acted in a timely manner and followed the Wikipedia procedures for registering complaints. To change what has been written would be to re-write the history of our discussions, a form of revisionist history which would suppress the content of those discussions.


 * At the risk of being repetitive, the claim that the expression New Orthodox Marxists is the "N-word equivalent" is both absurd and self-contradictory. It is self-contradictory because Kliman introduced it into the article and sourced it. His rationale is similarly absurd - he claims that he as an individual is a "reliable source" on this question and therefore he has the right to have his own wildly silly and contradictory interpretation of the meaning of the expression accepted by others.  This is simply not acceptable ... or logical.


 * Everything else that he comments on has been discussed previously. Don't even think of asking me for diffs - see my comment on that on my user talk page.  I should not have to devote my entire life to answering - over and over again - the same absurd claims of Andrew Kliman and/or spend it filing out forms for you. Watchdog07 07:59, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't think of asking you for useful information for people who might actually want to help? Do you know how impossible to read those talk pages are? 3/4's of it are accusations and the rest is incoherent to outsiders. Read my opinion and review below. MrMacMan  Talk  08:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * You know -- when both started this (or whenever I saw the huge mess you guys got into) you guys actually wanted to find a middle ground. Now you just want to be 'the winner'. As a request for mediation has failed and since you yourself brought this WP:ANI report here yourself you actually have to provide specific examples so people can understand what is going on instead of PUTTING EVERYTHING IN CAPITAL LETTERING AND BOLDFACE TYPE.
 * This is what you have to do, you have to show specific changes to the articles in question that were bad or against policy. You can't ask people to read some 90+ KB of talk page that doesn't even include the even bigger archives -- its just not feasible. You have to show specific things so people can clearly understand what you are saying. My personal feeling is that neither of you are anywhere near 'clean' when it comes to WP:CIVIL so don't even try to point the finger -- just bring up content disputes against policy. MrMacMan  Talk  08:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I dispute your claim that Kliman et al ever wanted to find "middle ground"., , and  have all been determined by J.smith "infact" to be meatpuppets who have single-purpose accounts which intervened on behalf of Andrew Kliman in an edit dispute.  This was not the action of people who wanted to find a "middle ground".  From the very beginning, Andrew Kliman has acted like he owned WP:OWN the article.  Watchdog07 12:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It is my belief that everyone involved in this dispute should be blocked from editing that article. I'm sorry, but this proven to me that not everyone gets wikipedia.  I blocked a few meatpuppets and ended a edit war and you wouldn't believe the number of emails I got from BOTH sides.  If everyone involved was less eloquent I would have called it childish whining and bickering.  As it is I'm very close to proposing a community enforced restriction from the article on both parties in the dispute. ---J.S  (T/C/WRE) 23:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Lee Nysted, the continuing saga
Banned user is back with more sock puppets ( and ). I filed a case with checkuser, but this edit and the edit the IP address made at the checkuser case seem to me to definitively establish that they are the same person. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 21:37, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

'''Here is the letter sent to isotope23 and Yamla. It was also sent to Obiterdicta. It was also sent to the Wikipedia office. Mr. Nysted hopes this will end it.'''

If it does not, the letter will be posted from Aruba; on Mr. Wales' talk page. 67.163.7.227 21:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Isotope23,                                           May 22, 2007

My user page has been altered to reflect a charge of being a Puppet Master. Although the user that has chosen to make this a crusade may be well within his rights to slap the badge on me, I suspect, he could have left the other information about me on said page.

I am hereby requesting, per Wikipedia policy, that my said account and all information about said account, be deleted. I have mailed an appropriate number of people (herein) who can bear witness to this request.

I have been the subject of vandalism, harassment, as well as, slander and libel, on Wikipedia. My good name, Lee Nysted, and my business associates have been wrongly accused of being puppets of various sorts, shapes and sizes.

I admitted last year to having been involved with Wikipedia and in order to use my real name, I attempted to have my name unprotected and unblocked. That happened, only to have the whole thing start again.

It is obvious that vandals and various cabals of administrators are intent on making a mockery of the project so I will not attempt to use my real name or likeness on Wikipedia at this time.

Re: Wikipedia and Lee Nysted:

I think what started last year as a swarm of vandals from MySpace attacking an attempt by someone to write an article about me, has now taken on a decidedly different tone.

People have been accused of puppetry that have stayed at the same hotel or live in the same community in Beaver Creek Colorado as I do. "Billy Bob Steakhouse." ??? Come on people. People from radio stations and web sites have been accused of being my puppets. The whole thing is really quite insane. It appears that even teens from a local college are involved with this mess. My drummer even took down his web site because someone is harassing him and his team on Wikipedia. I suspect there are people in my community (Illinois) that feel a need to tamper with things on Wikipedia. I have daughters in Illinois. I am quite sure my daughters and their friends have been active in all of this.

I have been in Aruba and will return to the U.S. for a brief time May 30, 2007. One of my firms has been accused of being a sock puppet? How can 20,000 people be accused of being a sock puppet? (Please see IP addresses of accused puppets.) Am I in St. Louis at the same time I am in Aruba? How was that proven? It was not. You are advertising that it is established.

Please end this. I am working on finishing a new album project and I do not want to have this whole Wikipedia issue involved with that, in any way.

Truly yours,

Lee Nysted

Courtesy Copies:

Lee Nysted Senior Vice President, Investments A.G. Edwards and Sons, Inc. Lake Forest, Illinois  U.S.A. Established 1887 Over 700 U.S.A. Offices Offices in London and Worldwide Member N.Y.S.E.

Lee Nysted, Owner; Managing Partner NystedMusic, LLC. Colorado, Illinois, Wisconsin (U.S.A.)

Tierra Del Sol, Aruba Dutch Caribbean

www.NystedMusic.com<http://www.nystedmusic.com/>

Lee@NystedMusic.com<mailto:Lee@NystedMusic.com>

www.MySpace.com/LeeNysted<http://www.myspace.com/LeeNysted>

www.isound.com/lee_nysted<http://www.isound.com/lee_nysted>

Legal Counsel:

Frank W. Pirruccello, Esq. www.Musiclaw1.com<http://www.musiclaw1.com/>

Roger White, Esq. and Associates, Ltd. Lake Bluff, Illinois U.S.A.

S.D. 5-22-07


 * For the OTRS volunteer who has to handle this, some explanation of the above may be useful. Nysted has some idea that "MySpace vandals" participated in Articles for deletion/Lee Nysted, Articles for deletion/The Lee Nysted Experience and Articles for deletion/Nysted Music, even though the sigs on the deletes there are mostly (in some cases almost entirely) from the usual xfD crowd.
 * His charge that his drummer (I assume he means Matt Walker.) was harrassed on-wiki is simply bizarre. Walker's site has been down for some time, but AFAIK, this has nothing to do with anything that happened on Wikipedia.  I do not know of Matt Walker editing Wikipedia, nor do I know of any editor from Wikipedia who has contacted Walker.
 * Checkuser has established a number of sockpuppets that were used by Lee Nysted. Pretending to be a family member when confronted with a charge of sockpuppetry is fairly common, but I don't think I've ever heard of anyone actually blaming his child before. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 16:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Most of these "sockpuppets" are probably meatpuppets. WP:BEANS I don't really want to say too much more about it here... but suffice to say there is a strong likelihood that most of the Nysted stuff is not actually being done by Nysted himself.--Isotope23 16:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Your account can't be deleted. However, you do have a Right to vanish. Sean William 22:00, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Can this be construed as a legal threat? Corvus cornix 22:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. Tell him to send it to OTRS if he has a problem. Until then, he needs to be blocked. &rArr;    SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  22:05, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Can we perhaps delete the links in there that serve nothing more than to promote his music? Tony Fox (arf!) 22:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think I got most of them yesterday. I would have thought that Nysted and his sock/meat puppets would have given up by now, but they tried to readd them less than an hour later.  I'm simply fed up with dealing with this, hence the "crusade" (tagging a few accounts, filing a checkuser).  He was banned months ago, but just won't go away. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 22:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, please? I am just the messenger. Mr. Nysted sent this via e-mail. He is in Aruba. He does not want an article and wants nothing to do with Wikipedia. Please delete the account per his request. That is my final statement on this issue. 67.163.7.227 22:08, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Stop spamming. End of problem.  ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 22:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Checkuser confirmed. I indef blocked WhispersofWisdom and blocked the IP for a week; the IP appears to be static and thus safe to block for a longer time, but I'd like input from other editors before extending the block--I don't want to cause undue collateral damage. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * You could try blocking it for a month at a time. The problematic edits are pretty easy to spot. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 13:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Right to Vanish
Per Wikimedia and Wikipedia

If you have used your real name, or a longstanding pen name, on Wikimedia projects then in principle everything you write can be traced to that name, and thus to you, as discussed above. However, if you decide to leave Wikimedia projects, there are a few steps that you can take to weaken that connection. They are:


 * If you have made fewer than 200,000 edits, change your username to some other name, one which is not directly associated with you (see Changing username).
 * Change references to your former username to be referenced to your replacement username (you can do this yourself).


 * Delete your user and user talk subpages (contact an administrator). (1)


 * Add a brief note indicating that you have left Wikimedia projects and asking that people not refer to you by your name.

You should note that while these measures afford a degree of practical obscurity, they will not stand up to assault from a persistent investigator, and Wikimedia projects has no control over its sublicensees, or over archiving services such as the Internet Archive or Google. Further, these actions require a degree of co-operation from the other users of the project, so Wikimedia cannot make guarantees on this matter. However, a few users have taken advantage of these kinds of measures in the past, and appear content with the results, which is enough reason for us to continue to offer this service.

See right to vanish (meatballwiki)

(1) This is the right Mr. Nysted is expecting to have accomplished per his letter.67.163.7.227 02:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * No administrator is required to take administrative action. Nobody is REQUIRED to delete said page. &rArr;    SWAT Jester    Denny Crane.  09:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You know something? Our Lee Nysted Experience has really, really sucked. We are not just dots in a computer screen. Given this, extra demands are not really clever. Moreschi Talk 13:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I gotta say, I hadn't heard the name Lee Nysted before this saga, but you can guarantee lthought I now know it, the mention brings a displeasurable taste to the mouth. Viridae Talk 13:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I just saw the email this morning (I have extremely limited connectivity right now) & sent it along to the foundation for their consideration because I will quite likely be almost completely offline for then next couple of weeks and the copies to his legal council would denote at least an implied legal threat.--Isotope23 17:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

From Aruba: May 23, 2007

Mr. Nysted has asked politely to have his user name, user: Lee Nysted removed/deleted

He has also asked that his user talk page be deleted. That is all that should be required, per policy. Anything short of allowing Mr. Nysted the right that Wikimedia and Wikipedia state above, is a violation of normal policy. 204.212.123.221 02:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * He can have his username changed to something obscure, but his edits nor his account can be deleted, due to GFDL issues. In addition, everyone else is correct, administrative action is never an obligation. Administrators can choose not to take certain action if they wish. --Deskana (talk)  02:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * We are not obligated to delete user pages. Reread our policies; nowhere, absolutely nowhere, does it state that we must delete userpages upon request. Continuing to assert so is absurd, ridiculous, and wrong. Further requests or demands will be denied and/or removed. — Kyриx  02:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I've deleted his userpage and talk page per his (above) request. I see no reason to deny his request to vanish. -- John Reaves (talk) 07:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * John, that wasn't the best move to do. The account, to what is presented here, is engaged in spamming Wikipedia and by using multiple accounts. On the page you cited, there is a clause at m:Right_to_vanish that says the following: "The right to vanish does not extend to pages retained for the purposes of protecting the website against disruption; for example requests for arbitration, requests for check user, or sockpuppet categories." The user is disrupting Wikipedia and doing so by using many accounts. Due to this, the pages are going back up. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 07:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keeping these pages benefits no one and only serves to glorify a banned user. -- John Reaves (talk) 09:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Frankly, if it makes him go away, deleting them is probably for the best. A number of editors have the usual targets of his promo attempts watchlisted, so if he comes back, it shouldn't be too difficult to spot. The RFCU pages et al that were associated with him are still here and not likely to be going away any time soon. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The purpose of the right to vanish is to permit troublesome users to leave with some dignity and Nysted is the perfect example of a troublesome user who embarrassed himself on-wiki. I would be in favor of honoring his request to the extent of deleting his user and talk pages.  Of course, it would be a good idea for the OTRS volunteer who handles this to make it clear to him that "vanish" means you go away, not that you come back to spam and then blame your sockpuppetry on your daughters. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 15:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree... I've finally had a bit of time to look at this and IMO, deleting the User/Talkpage history, tagging the userpage, then protecting both would seem to be a good middle ground. Tony has it right... this is on quite a few editor's watchlists so I don't think we are doing much admin hinderance by deleting this. I was going to go ahead and boldly implement this, but then I noticed that the pages were deleted and restored.  I'm going to go ahead and be bold here and implement this.--Isotope23 16:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted both the userpage and talkpage. I did so after I saw discussion on User talk:Jimbo Wales but before noticing this thread. Nonetheless, I strongly believe deletion is the correct course here. The deleted content will remain accessible to administrators, and yet by advising this individual that the pages will remain deleted if and only if he stays away from Wikipedia, we increase the chances that he will do so. Newyorkbrad 16:26, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That works too.--Isotope23 16:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * If the Big Man (Jimbo) wants the pages gone, then I will agree with him (I been wrong before, so no big deal here). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 18:50, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Newyorkbrad has taken the right path on this. If the users actually vanish then that's good for the project. There have been cases where people have demanded the right to vanish but then have kept returning. Folks need to understand that the right to vanish is contingent on them actually vanishing. ·:·Will Beback  ·:· 20:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Creationism POV edits at dinosaur articles
Recent vandalism and Christian fundamentalist POV-pushing on dinosaur articles has gone way up in the last week or so, perhaps due in part to a recent news item which compared Wikipedia's article on Dinosaurs with Conservapedia's. I've never seen my dinosaur watchlist this active. I would have posted this at WP:AIAV, but many of the edits aren't vandalism per se, though some come close. List of dinosaurs gives an idea of the number of articles which are getting hit, and which itself has come under some attacks. Velociraptor, Parasaurolophus, Deinonychus, Dinosaur, Gorgosaurus, Acrocanthosaurus, Sinornithosaurus‎, Alwalkeria, Ankylosaurus, Argentinosaurus, others have been vandalized during the past couple of days. Mostly, the stuff is easy to fix, but these incidents seem to be increasing. Might some nice folks add some dinosaur articles to their watchlists? Firsfron of Ronchester 06:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)‎


 * I've watchlisted all the ones you mention specifically, and I'll add several more from the List of dinosaurs. Thanks for bringing this up; it could use a lot more eyes. Doc  Tropics  06:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You know this is like the fourth time this week you've saved my bacon, Doc. I think some award is in order... Firsfron of Ronchester  07:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Also watchlisting. Protecting our dinos! :) --Ashenai 11:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes indeed. Save them from extinction. ;-) ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 14:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If you let me know on my talk page of any articles you want me to check monitor after the initial surge dies out that the above aren't taking care of I'll be happy to help. jbolden1517<sup style="color:darkgreen;">Talk  15:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If you run into persistent problems with any specific editors, I would be glad to have a little chat with them and see if we can bring them around to NPOV editing - I have had some success with similar situations in the past (and don't know enough about dinos to really help with the watchlist). Just drop me a note to point me in the right direction. Pastordavid 15:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, all. Much appreciated! :) Firsfron of Ronchester  18:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The interest by creationists in changing Wikipedia articles may have been recently stimulated by this new museum which shows animatronic friendly dinosaurs interacting with early humans, and which explains how the Grand Canyon could have been created in a few days by the Noah's Ark flood in Genesis. There is a very well funded effort in the U.S devoted to "refuting evolution and expanding the flock of believers in a literal interpretation of the Bible". Expect much more of the same in any articles which disagree with fundamentalist creationism. Edison 17:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Lovely. Well, we've always had a problem with Creationist IPs adding in random stuff ("THEY DIDN'T EXIST!" or "THEY DIED BECUASE THEY GAY!", etc), but there's been a surge over the past week or so. At one time, all the articles were watched by as few as five editors. Hopefully, that has changed now. Firsfron of Ronchester  04:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

If this gets excessive, semi-protection may be appropriate for a period of time. Georgewilliamherbert 20:21, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Canadian Royal Family (second nom)
Right guys, I closed the above AfD discussion yesterday as redirect to Monarchy in Canada, and the creator of the article is continuously recreating the article in a slightly different name (Royal family of Canada), he’s basically doing a cut and paste move of the orignal article. Can someone else go and have a nice word with them, because every time I try and redirect the new page – he reverts. Cheers.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  15:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The AfD was for an article titled Canadian Royal Family. The result was a redirect, with no decision reached on what should happen to the cited and verifiable content of that article that wasn't, and still isn't, repeated anywhere else.  The information cannot simply be deleted, so without other option, it goes in a new article.  The title Royal family of Canada corresponds to the topic therein. --G2bambino 15:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The result was redirect, not merge, or copy and paste into a new article, the consensus was that the content wasn't needed.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  15:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Cited, verifiable and relevant content cannot be simply deleted. --G2bambino 16:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes it can, it was the result of the AfD.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  16:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, if that is the consensus of the AfD, then that is the consensus of the AfD. Pastordavid 16:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, that's censorship, and against WP:DEL. --G2bambino 16:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Nope, that's consensus.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  16:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't care. The consenus is wrong. If anyone has any suggestions as to where else the content should go, I'm all ears. But there's patently no reason to delete it, what-so-ever. --G2bambino 16:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You do realise that the above is usually step one on the road to a ban, don't you? Guy (Help!) 16:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, so now we're resorting to threats. I can see how the co-operation Wikipedia is built on is coming into full effect here.  I'll repeat myself, so it's clear: the content is cited, verifiable and relevant information; no part of WP:DL justifies its deletion.  If everyone's adamant that there will be no article called Canadian Royal Family, then so be it, but I'm at a loss as to where else to put the contents that aren't currently anywhere else. Got suggestions or questions, please raise them, but don't blindly resort to bullying. --G2bambino 16:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter what people believe here, what matters is the consensus of the AfD, in essence, the content isn't required here so you don't have to put it anywhere else, and that includes creating pages with slightly different names. since the history of Canadian Royal Family isn't deleted, you could put content in Monarchy in Canada if there is consensus to do so on the talk page.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  16:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * G2bambino: it's not a threat, it's a statement of fact. Asserting that you are right and consensus is wrong, and continuing to go against consensus on that basis, is an absolutely certain route to a ban.  Do not ignore consensus, or those who have told you that you must respect it, engage on the talk page of the redirect target and see if there is a way your content can be acommodated. And if it can't, then learn to live with it.  Guy (Help!) 17:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Canadian Royal Family was re-established precicely because a plethora of content was moved out of Monarchy in Canada after the latter grew to an immense size. Putting it back there - ie. making Monarchy in Canada longer again - is against WP guidelines.  Regardless, I'll move it back, for a second time, and start a discussion about it, but nobody besides me really makes major edits to that article. --G2bambino 16:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

This was briefly discussed at DRV today. The only reason there was a case to consider was that a merge occurred last year, and we needed the history back. As I commented in the DRV, the consensus of the AFD is blazingly obvious, and any changes to it need to be the result of the formation of a different consensus in the appropriate place. Ignoring the AFD consensus is disruptive editing. My initial opinion was that the redirect should be protected, but others at DRV disagreed. I see that the edit war over the redirect is continuing, so I reiterate the call for a protection. Normally, we would always protect at the wrong version, but since one version has a consensus and the other doesn't, one is more wrong than the other. GRBerry 16:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I completely agree, and have ion fact already protected the redirects. Guy (Help!) 16:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree, G2bambino please respect the consensus in this matter. ( H ) 16:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Consensus is wrong? Even if it is, you still have to wait for it to change G2bambino. Sancho 16:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, yes. A number of people involved in the AfD (obviously the majority, but certainly not everyone) operated under the clearly mistaken belief that almost all the content of Canadian Royal Family was already covered at Monarchy in Canada; it was, and still is, not. Poor research before casting a vote, it seems. The consensus can indeed change, but there needs to be a forum where that can happen.  Completely obliterating the content under question doesn't allow for that. --G2bambino 17:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The correct forum is Deletion review. You can raise your objections to the outcome of the AfD, especially the one you just mentioned (poor research, etc.) and hopefully a more informed consensus will result. Sancho 17:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * WP:DRV, and if that does not work, then the community has spoken. ( H ) 17:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * While DRV often rejects disputes over redirecting and merging, instead referring them to a consensus to be formed on the article's talk page, per the discussion here I've opened a new review at Deletion review/Log/2007 May 23 to discuss the redirection issue. I didn't reopen the earlier review as the GFDL history issue should be kept separate.  GRBerry 17:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I was mulling over whether this would be necessary/useful as I'm not particularly driven to have the particular article reinstated, just to ensure that the valid content goes somewhere appropriate. --G2bambino 17:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Just a suggestion, but what I do when something is going to be deleted that I don't think the world can live without is I save a snapshot of the page into the edit history of my own sandbox. Then it can always be retrieved down the road. If it's already gone, you can request a copy of it in your user space, save the content into your sandbox, then have it deleted. - Crockspot 21:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem that all of this leaves is that editors at Monarchy in Canada are more or less compelled to keep doing what Gbambino is doing - it is the right editorial decision. Content gets merged per AfD - article is way too big, so it needs to be split out again, et cetera.... WilyD 12:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I also don't like that tone of the consensus was wrong. ALL Afd's should be respected by all editors (majority opinon must be upheld). GoodDay 23:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

YAFN
Anyone see any reason to keep User:Sixth Reich around? --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 20:10, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Please nuke him asap, thanks, --Tom 20:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't see any obvious sign that they might be here to do something other than push POV. Would that be unfair conclusion-jumping on my part? --YFB ¿  20:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * With the possible exception of some deleted edits, his only edit other than his userpage is this claim at Talk:The Holocaust. It does not appear that he is here to contribute to the encyclopedia. GRBerry 20:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I have blocked indefinitely, trolling. Someone else already got the userpage. Newyorkbrad 20:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that it should also be known that User talk:207.193.115.183 is also operated by Judson High School. Right after I gave User:William Henry Harrison a Barnstar for helping me out big time I saw that he was blocked, I thought that was kind of strange. His username is not a vandal account I looked at his contribs and they were all good.--Uga Man 21:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I've deleted it. Far as I can see, it fails WP:USER for a number of reasons; soapboxing / Polemical content, not to mention WP:DICK. Apart from the fact that it's offensive in the extreme - A l is o n  ☺ 20:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * School kids. I did a CU and to no surprise it turned out he's from a school with almost nothing but vandalistic contributions from a dozen or so differently named editors. I've hardblocked the school until next fall. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 20:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, a great editor. Let's see: "Let's ask Monica what the shit tasted like", something about George Washington and crop circles... think it over. That's why I said "almost" nothing but vandalistic edits; only some of this editor's contributions were vandalism. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 22:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I ask you to look at his recent edits especially to Commons and see that his most recent edits were not vandalism. All he did was put a dirty word on a Talk Page. The edits to George Washington look like a Test Edit to me because it was this editor's first edit. It doesn't really seem like this is a candidate to be blocked indefinitely because other editors have done far worse and gotten away with it.--Uga Man 22:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * He's not blocked from Commons. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 00:39, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I've unblocked him (but not the school); we'll see what happens next. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 18:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Block of 143.231.249.141--US House of Representatives IP
I have blocked the IP belonging to the United States House of Representatives for a period of three hours for vandalism despite being issued multiple warnings. Nishkid64 (talk) 17:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * E-mail ComCom. If you've already done that, there's not much else to do but wait :). Sean William 17:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I e-mailed Michael Snow, and left a message at the Communications Committee's talk page. Nishkid64 (talk)  18:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I blocked that address for linkspamming before without any problems. Just mail ComCom & it'll be just fine - A l is o n  ☺ 19:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Joke edits, self-nom at RfA, now threatening to report me at this board. Could someone else please take a look and take whatever action they deem appropriate? Thanks.--Guinnog 18:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, and if the USSR really has re-unified in the last weeks and I missed it, I apologise in advance. --Guinnog 18:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * He's been blocked for 24 hours by another admin, which seems appropriate. I get the sense this is a joke account and not the first time around the block for this editor, so I'd have a low threshold for extending the block if we don't see some constructive contributions in the near future. MastCell Talk 18:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I see he wasn't happy about it. I agree it may be someone we have seen before, and that his days here (under that account anyway) may well be numbered if edits don't improve. --Guinnog 18:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * RfA closed early by me per WP:SNOW - A l is o n  ☺ 18:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Ongoing IP vandalism at Islam by country
There seems to be a persistant IP vandal at the Islam by country article. While the change (in a table from 60 to 30 entries, and altered numbers) might otherwise be some sort of content issue, there is no attempt at discussion, and many of the edits are accompanied by offensive edit summaries (here and here). If a couple people could add this to watchlists please, or semi-protect if necessary.

The IP is usually different each time (most recently, but all are assigned to "FPT Broadband Service" in Vietnam, from their 58.186.224.0 - 58.186.239.255 range. This seems to be some sort of sectarian POV warrior in Vietnam, related to this Talk comment a few weeks ago, and some related edits to Buddhism (diff). - David Oberst 18:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I hope somebody takes a look at the case for range blocking here. I'm out of my depth in such matters, but meanwhile, El C and Steel359 have semiprotected Islam by country and Buddhism respectively. Bishonen | talk 19:55, 24 May 2007 (UTC).

Legal threat.
Jeffery Vernon Merkey has accused myself and others of "violating State and Federal Laws." Is this permitted, persuant to our No legal threats policy, which JVM is well aware of? Hipocrite - &laquo; Talk &raquo; 18:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if that could be construed as a legal threat. However, reading the whole comment through, it's apparent that this guy has a lot of issues. - A l is o n  ☺ 18:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * As I said at WP:CN, this whole dispute really should be moved to WP:ARBCOM.--Isotope23 19:02, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I have filed an RFC Here, given that neither CN nor ANI are forums for dispute resolution.
 * I agree with Isotope's statement.. this is a long-standing off-WP war among some (but not all) participants in this, and I was sincerely hoping that WP would not become the latest battleground. I would say that when/if the RfC breaks down, that hopefully ArbCom will be willing to step in and enforce a stop to the wars (at least on WP!) SirFozzie 19:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Jeffrey O. Gustafson on Requests for mediation/Frank Rossitano
User:Jeffrey O. Gustafson has repeatedly deleted the request for mediation on his talk page rather than leaving a proper "disagree" signature on Requests for mediation/Frank Rossitano. Jingra11 19:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * What's the problem with that? He can do what he wants to.  Ral315 » 19:51, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I blocked Jingra11 as a self-evident sockpuppet, no genuinely new user starts two threads on ANI this early in their editing. Guy (Help!) 19:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Holy crap! Look at this: .  And that was the cause of all this nonsense?  Wow.  Guy (Help!) 20:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow. Some people just lose it. Apparently they don't know that this kind of direct behavior ends up hurting their side far worse than helping it. The Evil Spartan 00:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Repeated reinsertion of copyvio material into Winshill
On 19 April I noticed that all previous versions of the article Winshill were copyright violations from this article. Consequently I rewrote the article from scratch as a short stub, and explained this on the talk page. On 22 May 86.140.90.82 reverted to the copyvio version (diff), which I reverted again. 81.132.19.166 reverted again twice on 23 May, , and I notice it's been reverted again today by 213.249.162.132 with a belligerent edit summary. I assume that this is actually the editor, with a dynamic IP. I don't want to breach 3RR, even though this is simple vandalism (intentional copyright violation) rather than a content dispute. Could an admin take a look please? Cheers, DWaterson 20:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 81... blocked for a brief time as they had been warned already. 213... given an "only warning" style warning. If the material is inserted again, 213 should be blocked. (ESkog)(Talk) 20:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Surprisingly enough, nearly everything ever did on this encyclopedia was copy and paste garbage from other web sites. I'd bet a fair amount that this is the same person. (ESkog)(Talk) 20:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Has been vandalised again from a different IP, with an abusive edit summary. Semi-protection perhaps? Cheers, DWaterson 22:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * God this person is determined... Cheers, DWaterson 00:26, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I've semi-protected the article.--Isotope23 00:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Mentor for User:AFUSCO ?
If anyone has some time; has been blocked by me a couple of times for various user and user talk page abuses after having impersonated an administrator yesterday morning and being warned repeatedly to stop. They have some good edits in the past, before this started; if someone wants to try mentoring them it might work. They don't seem to be listening to me, though. Georgewilliamherbert 21:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

User making death threats against article subject
See Benny Hinn,, ,. Users are both indef'ed, TobyHilton's talk page is protected, the article is sprotected. Should we notify anyone else, OFFICE? Georgewilliamherbert 22:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * WP:OVERSIGHT. Newyorkbrad 22:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't appear to have personal info; are threats oversightable? I haven't seen that in the Oversight policy, but I don't work with it much.  Georgewilliamherbert 22:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Another User:Brya sock
User:Brya is so busy on Wikipedia Commons reformatting everything to his/her desire, I would think that en.wiki could simply be left alone. Still, the same italicizing of taxa higher than orders and hidden by edit histories that claim the edit is something else. Exactly what caused the discussion about a community ban in the first place. Please block this sock puppet. Block history, there is also a lengthy RFA somewhere and reems of commentary on this editor. Thank you. KP Botany 22:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot to post the sock's user name User:Groosy. KP Botany 05:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Also please block the User:Clyb Brya sock which we let slide last year on AGF, but has begun, with the other two, to revert to Brya styles, which the community has jointly and repeatedly decided against. KP Botany 22:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Is there anything in the WP:MOS against his format? I dont know to much about the area, but this looks like an editing dispute, not blockable offenses. - M  <sup style="color:#000000;">ask?  05:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Banned users are not allowed to edit Wikipedia, so there is no editing dispute with this user. KP Botany 05:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Dokdo
For whatever reason, someone is destroying the RM at Dokdo after the poll had been running smoothly for a few days. A half dozen or more users on their first edit came in to vote (which would be okay I guess), but they are now modifying/duplicating other users' votes, adding unrelated comments, etc. Looking at the history it appears that a bunch of newly created accounts are basically vandalizing the poll. It seems odd to request page protection on an ongoing poll page. Would that be appropriate? Or should it just be allowed to play out and sorted out at the conclusion? --Cheers, Komdori 23:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I have semi-protected for a couple of days; someone needs to review for cleanup. Georgewilliamherbert 23:34, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that helped a lot. The disruption continues a bit, perhaps because the RM made news in South Korea's largest newspaper (here).  I guess they are mostly older accounts now, so I'm not sure how serious it is, but the poll is still getting hit. --Cheers, Komdori 00:50, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Jimblack evading a block.
The Evil Spartan 00:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC) is evading a block. The block was placed yesterday wit a 72 hour duration. He's now editing with his account called. I've long suspected that this was a sock puppet of his, as it was created shortly after his first block a few months ago and has virtually identical editing patterns. He's now confirmed it, though: in this posting he signs as "Jimblack".--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 23:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)