Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive269

Vandal
Hi, I would like to report User:Qurultay who has vandalized several pages, including adding dubious references, and so forth. Note that he is most likely a sockpuppett of banned User:AdilBaguirov as he has send waves of socks recently.Hetoum I 00:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * i've looked at User:Hetoum I contributionrs, it's increddibly disappointing to see such behavior from him, why such attacks??? we dont even know each other, yet such attack. this is testament to fact that Hetoum I has been acting in bad fais and engaging in editwar, by changing back my corection in the Denial of Armenian Genocide page. There I have corrected the word 'Jews' to Israeli, to make it consistent with rest of table list, which lists countries, not ethnicities. What 'dubious references'? There are none such references, all fully per encyclopedia rules. What is this 'sockpuppett' attack? Who is this? Why? Please don't act like this User:Hetoum I. I will be mindful of your contributions now. Qurultay 11:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm less concerned about the Jew/Israeli issue than Qurultay's removal of any mention of the Armenian Genocide from the Pan-Turkism article. Instead, he has made attempts to replace it with a paragraph intended to make Armenians look antisemitic. -- Aivazovsky 13:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Kindly protect or block
I kindly ask for admin to either block this user or protect pages Denial of the Armenian Genocide and Pan-Turkismas this is clearly a sock for AdilB along with Ehud. I am copy-pasting evidence of this user's harassment from the latest arbcom.

Among many reasons why AdilBaguirov has used socks, is also to have other members who were not restricted with the one revert per week restriction to be blocked. Marshall reverting what he saw obviously as sock was reported by one of those socks. and successfully blocked. More recently Meowy was blocked after Grandmaster reported him for 3RR. While according to checkusers Ehud Lesar who reverted Meowy and caused the block is not Adil, there are reasons to believe he is AdilBaguirov.

Ehud Lesar pretends to be Jew acording to his userpage. He also claims to be part of the Israel Wiki Project while his contribution on Jews is basically limited on things related to Azerbaijan. It seem as a cover. Besides, AdilBaguirov has already pretended to be Jewish with his account Weiszman. Both Weiszman and Ehud Lesar to have some similar editing patterns. First, both started contributing the same month. ,. In Ehud Lesar case, after his first edit which was on 28 March he stopped editing all together while Weiszman was contributing. Ehud Lesar only resumed edition after Weiszman was banned.

Hours after Ehud Lesar started editing the Church of Kish Qurultay register, while at first his edits seemed in good faith soon after he made edits on the Armenian reference on the Pan-Turkism and extended the edit war on the Denial of the Armenian Genocide. 

Hetoum I 18:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Minor "sock"
A user I reported here earlier (Gundor Twintle Fluffy) decided he was going to taunt me on my talk page here by telling me to delete his old page because he made a new one and faking his sig by hand and not with tildes so I "wouldn't know what his new account was". As an aside, it's really interesting what the history tab shows you.

Anyway, my point here is that I redirected his old user and talk pages to his new user and talk pages, but I was thinking there might be a cleaner way to do it than what I did, so I've posted here in case it needs to be done differently. It's not like he had any edits of value such that the accounts should be merged, but it's an option. MSJapan 03:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Does Wikipedia hand out Darwin awards? :) Tim Vickers 04:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I wish they did, as he apparently has User:Gundor Twintle Fluffy, User:Dark Grevious, User:Dark Lord Dylan and User:65.126.113.88 that he edits the others' pages with. He also faked an MfD  here and a warning, my sig, and a reply here, then changed the timestamp here.  This is stupid and ridiculous, but I'm not going to have him trying to play his petty little games and implicate me superficially.  I notified Theresa Knott about this, as she acted on this complaint, but I'd prefer it if it did not sit around.  This is sockfarming for some sort of warped socialization, and not for improvement of Wikipedia.  Said user doesn't even know how to sign his real sig, yet he's got over 500 edits to talk pages between the four accounts.  He might even have more, but I don't have the tools to find them outside of tracking cross-contribs  MSJapan 16:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Persistent copyright violations by User:121.210.34.183
User:121.210.34.183 is persistently posting copyrighted material to Wikipedia articles. This user is cutting and pasting the synopsis of TV show episodes from external websites. Almost every one of this user's contributions is identified as a copyright violation by Google. This user has been warned twice, and is continuing to violate copyrights. This user should be blocked. Andrew_pmk | Talk 04:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Gotcha. Left him a last plain warning. If he continues, I will block him. -- ReyBrujo 04:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * He's back again with an obvious copyright violation. Blocked for 31 hours. &mdash; Rebelguys2 talk 08:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Persistent removal of "Primarysources|date=July 2007" and "Notability|date=July 2007" tags
The articles City Harvest Church and Kong Hee keep getting their respective tags removed. - 222.164.83.43 05:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I have spoken to the other user involved,, and he sounded perfectly willing to discuss this. I believe this incident resulted simply from a lack of communication between those involved.  Someguy1221 08:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks to, I was highlighted to this "incident". Dear , I had reverted your edits as I had seen other users hightlighting their reasons for removing the tags in the talkpage for both City Harvest Church and Kong Hee. Perhaps you can provide your reasons for tagging both articles? Habbo sg 08:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Was this discussion formally closed?
User:Zscout370 just unilaterally removed the incident discussion in progress: I am unfamiliar with termination procedures for incidents. Is this appropriate? This incident began with an accusation against me and I need to be sure this matter is formally closed, and that it was not just terminated because the disruptive behavior of my accuser was being discussed. The edit summary removing the discussion said "take it to the talk page" but there are multiple articles where the user is engaged in the same sort of process, which is why discussing it here seems called for. The summary removal of the discussion resulted in this editor's view not being recorded in the thread:

The discussion was terminated when I raised the question of whether BalanceRestored has violated the terms of the block lifting. I hope that editors who are not familiar with the block history on BalanceRestored will read the conditions under which the block was lifted:. You just had a live demonstration of the disruptive behavior that we are facing on multiple articles, and I request some independent opinion on whether the block should be restored. Buddhipriya 07:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Background: was blocked indefinitely in May for disruptive editing, edit warring and sockpuppetry. His ban was lifted, under the assumption of good faith, by admin Vassyana under under stringent conditions agreed to by the user, which are listed  here. Here are links to earlier ANI reports on/by this user:  first,  second and third, and here are some other articles where he has made similar tendentious arguments (based usually on  preview snippets he finds on Google books): Talk:Vedas, Talk:Vishwabrahmin, Indian caste system.
 * While I understand that the discussion had to be closed because it was becoming too circular and silly (even for this page!) I must point out that closing it here simply means that it the editor has moved to other pages such as Talk:Nastika and Talk:Pranava Veda where there are, unfortunately, no admins and few regular editors to give him a clue. Abecedare 07:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Right, but by removeing an entire thread, it won't get archived, correct? Why not just mark it with discussion top and discussion bottom, and ask the editors to move further talk elsewhere? Flyguy649 talk contribs 07:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I have no objection to closing the discussion, I just want to be sure the closure was done in a formally correct manner. I will cease commenting on the assumption that someone who understands the process will close it out. Buddhipriya 07:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. I couldn't undo zscout370's edits due to intermediate revisions. Is there a way to restore it (for archival purposes) without losing edit history ? Here is the lisnk to the deletion Abecedare 08:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that what is needed is to restore the deleted material and tag it as suggested. I do not understand how to do that. Buddhipriya 08:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I have restored and archived the racial slur discussion. Abecedare 08:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You missed the comment I made on that thread (which got entangled with a different one due to removal of original thread. --Ragib 08:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I have readded it back now. Abecedare 08:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

And here is the latest example of 's hostility: biting a new editor because the latter has a better understanding of WP:NPOV ! I request an admin to take a good look at BalanceRestored's editing history, especially in light of the conditions and assumption of good faith that his previous indef. block was lifted. Abecedare 08:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Doing the proper procedure would have done nothing for this case; the reason why the editor moved to other pages is due to my statement saying take that clusterfuck discussion elsewhere. We can't solve it, it turned into a troll fest and it best to be removed instantly than let it linger for days until a bot comes and deals with it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I do not agree that removal of the material was the best approach, as the record of what is said here has potential future value. I am glad that the effort has been made to archive the discussion. I appreciate your postive intent, however. Buddhipriya 08:43, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Mukhran Machavariani
Can someone please revert vandalism on the above page, I have already reported the vandal and reverted 3 times, but it is still continuing. Xarr &#9742; 11:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The IP has been ARV'd. -- Zamkudi Dhokla queen! 11:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Vandalism reverted and the article sprotected by Theresa knott. MartinDK 11:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Bizarre vandalism involving Clint Boon and associated harrassment of editors
This is the strangest thing I've yet seen on Wikipedia. There appears to be a coordinated, distributed effort to insert random made-up altercations involving British celebrities and musical acts and Clint Boon from the Inspiral Carpets, usually involving alcohol and serious injury. (Here, have yet another handful.) The IPs are random, the accounts are throwaway, and it seems to have been going on for some time.

I've been reverting this whenever I see it, as has User:Kekslover. Unfortunately they've taken to pestering her on her talk page now, so this has gone beyond mere stupid vandalism and into harrassment.

Short of semiprotecting basically anything British students were into over the course of the 1990s I can't see that there's a solution to this. Any ideas? Chris Cunningham 11:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I would help to clean it up. Is there a regular time/day of the week this happens? If there is a spate of an evening or weekend (UK time) you could let me know on my talkpage and point me toward the active ip's for a short block. LessHeard vanU 12:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe semi-protect Kekslover's talk page to protect her from harassment? --Kaypoh 12:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

User:86.20.39.188
Last night, JetLover blocked 86.20.39.188 for vandalising my userpage, see here and this. The first edit says "being an asshole to everyone at school". I live in Coventry, UK and go to school. When I traced the IP address, it traced back to Coventry, see this. The user, has only blocked the IP for 31 hours. All of a sudden, the fact that I have a account here has been spread to most people in my year (thats 250 people), so therefore I think my userpage could be up for heavy vandalism later tonight. On the subject on the above IP address, can it be blocked for longer, as I think it could go on the rampage again tomorrow. Someone told me that I could try and create a new account, but given my current status with other users, seeing as I've just been unblocked, I think this is not the best option. Could a admin possibly lock my userpage if vandals strike later tonight? Thought I needed to bring this up. Davnel03 16:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh and this. Davnel03 16:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Given the above, I've semi-protected your userpage (which prevents IP's and brand-new accounts from editing it). It will expire in 1 month, but if you want the semi-protection lifted sooner, just ask an admin or mention it at WP:RFPP. MastCell Talk 16:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Doczilla and Wryspy
I've been looking through the contributions of these two users due to some suspiciously similar activity and suspect sockpuppetry. See this |CFD nomination by for the category "DiMera family", where the argument was "Delete per many, many precedents for deleting these family categories" which sounded familiar to me, and courtesy of google  I found the phrase "many, many precedents" is a phrase often used by  in CFD debates, examples here and here.

I also note Doczilla's most recent contribution is a request to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rational Skepticism about the article Jamie Hyneman which has often been edited by Wryspy but never by Doczilla. Both users started early in 2006, both with a lot of edits to the article Infinite Crisis. There is also an interesting pair of edits to wryspy's talk page by Doczilla here and here which looks like the user forgetting which account he is editing from.

Additionally I note both user's have been involved in exposing sockpuppets of the user see Suspected sock puppets/EJBanks and Requests for checkuser/Case/EJBanks.

I have only spotted a couple of examples where both accounts have voted together in nominations so I don't believe any XFD outcomes have been affected (Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_February_11 is one, Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_March_3 is the other) The instructions at WP:RFCU suggest this should be listed here, so I welcome any comments and suggestions of how to deal with this activity. Tim! 17:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Knickerless
Has received many warnings for vandalism. Has ignored all of them. Continues to vandalise pages. To be blocked please. Mangwanani 18:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. In the future, this type of report should be placed on WP:AIV for faster response. Newyorkbrad 18:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Personal attack by admin

 * As no urgent administrative action appears warranted and this discussion is ongoing at User Talk:JzG, I'm going to archive this. MastCell Talk 19:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The user User:JzG has launched a personal attack against me here.

Furthermore, the current debate there seems to be turning out of hand as some of his cronies have come to defend him by using certain straw-man tactics, and I alone cannot defend myself if he and zillions of his cronies are intentionally ignoring half of what I'm saying.  Impartial, decent admins are invited to monitor this situation in case it unfurls into chaos.

You will note that this is the 3rd personal attack that User:JzG has launched against me. I will find the other two and post them here. Rfwoolf 18:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to say that you didn't deserve that, but I agree it was over the top. Nobody would tell me to "edit articles or shut up you whining twat" (at least I think not), and that is rather incivil even if you do deserve it. -Amarkov moo! 18:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Dude, your user page was protected for 4 days, 7 months ago. What possible purpose could you have in dragging this up now?  Move on. Thatcher131 18:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I like to think that admins are held accountable for their actions in some way, don't you? Anyways to answer your question, it's appropriate right now. User:JzG censored my userpage because of what he called a soapbox piece (which was actually constructive criticism about Wikipedia), and then goes and puts a soapbox piece on his userpage. Seven months later I'm taking the opportunity to point it out, that's all. Now that you've successfully detracted from the issues at hand...Rfwoolf 19:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Rfwoolf, Guy's personal attack does not justify your name-calling ("cronies"). Please refrain from such comments. -- Black Falcon (Talk) 19:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Regardless of the issues, JzG's comments cited in the diff look like unacceptable NPA violations to me, although I appreciate they may have been taken out of context. WaltonOne 19:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Re: Black Falcon. Whom did I call cronies? Was it a personal attack? I don't remember calling anybody a crony. I don't believe in this case it counts as a personal attack. Perhaps another impartial admin can correct me if I'm wrong Rfwoolf 19:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Misconduct has no statute of limitations in Wikipedia. This is not to say if there was or wasn't misconduct. If someone wants to consider what happened, do it now and then forget about it, shake hand, and resume writing.JonnyLate 19:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's perhaps better if Rfwoolf doesn't resume writing, considering this damning evidence Nick 19:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Rfwoolf, if lots of different people are honestly ignoring what you are saying, then perhaps what you are saying doesn't warrant people paying any attention to it. Please consider that you could be in the wrong here as much as anybody else. Nick 19:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Nick, in order to provide me with the right of reply, I'd need to be able to see the link to your quoted "damining evidence". I cannot access it. Please either give me access to it, or explain what it is. Secondly, I always maintain that I could be in the wrong as much as anybody else as a philosophical rule. However, it would be nice if reason and civility were implemented, even logic perhaps, and using straw-men tactics, as you may pick up they are doing, is not nice. The focus of the debate there was supposed to be about censoring my userpage because of soapboxing, and then going and soapboxing on his own page, and the hypocracy thereof . Now go read the debate and see what they're doing -- talking about anything and everything else, bringing up all sorts of dead skeletons to try and discredit me in the discussion. Hense my use of the word cronyism Rfwoolf 19:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I disapprove of this being archived so soon. At least one admin has agreed that JzG violated WP:NPA. What action is going to be done about it? Furthermore I have been deprived of a right of reply over a link by Nick: "Damning evidence". How am I supposed to respond? Also JzG has done a personal attack 2 other times... This unilateral archiving seems blatantly unfair Rfwoolf 19:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Pay attention to the reason for archiving please. Venue of discussion has been moved. — Kurykh  19:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If only it was. The venue of the discussion has bene closed by (alleged crony) User:John who says any further discussion will be deemd WP:POINT. There was an incident. A personal attack was laid against me, the third one, and I'd like something done. By closing the discussion in two places, I am deprived of my recourse. Rfwoolf 19:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The discussion is not closed. It is the manner that you are presenting your argument that you need to change. And you said "I rest my case" quite explicitly on the page, and when nothing is done, well... — Kurykh  19:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Now now, I think it is quite clear the "I rest my case" is jargon to say "I no longer have to prove a certain case", JzG had made a personal attack, I was not saying that I rest *this* case. More over, I made that comment before I reported the incident! Please don't spin things. Rfwoolf 19:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * (After Edit Conflict) My right of reply: According to User:Nick, the this damning evidence link he posted above shows all the posts on Wikipedia that have been deleted. While obviously I can't see the link or know the specific contents, I summarily find it irrelevant to the actual case. If it was some attempt to show me as being a troll or vandal, I'm afraid you'll need to reconsider, because I'm not. Rfwoolf 19:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, it showed you wasting rather a lot of our time. BTW, you have no rights, other than the right to leave and the right to fork, AFAIK. Moreschi Talk 19:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Let me get this straight, you wait 6 months after your dispute until Guy's userpage shows he isn't feeling very positive about the project. Then you sucessfully troll him and come running here to complain? Do you feel proud of yourself for doing this? Spartaz Humbug! 19:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Amen - we're not in court here. I archived the discussion because this isn't the complaints dept, because no urgent admin intervention seemed necessary, and because Rwoolf is simultaneously maintaining a thread on this topic on Guy's talk page. The stated purpose of the post here was to attract uninvolved editors and admins. Mission accomplished; now let's centralize the discussion somewhere more appropriate. MastCell Talk 20:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Note: JzG has removed the section and protected his talk. I request that the discussion be moved back here, because this is far from a resolved issue. ATren 21:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This is what I'm saying Rfwoolf
 * What do you want us to do, exactly ? Nick 21:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you might clarify the exact rules as to when it's "OK" to call someone a whining twat? Or tell them to fuck off? Or call them a sweaty cunt? Where does it say that certain editors can engage in these kinds of destructive attacks? ATren 21:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No-one here is interested. Guy shouldn't have done it but no one is going to do anything because he was trolled and clearly isn't himself right now. If you had a shred of human decentcy you would also drop it to give him a chance to step away. All you are doing is trying to extend a dispute that Guy has tried to disengage from. How pathetic. Please stop now, no-one is going to play with you. Spartaz Humbug! 21:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * So if I happened to have a bad day and told you right now "Fuck off, you worthless twat", would I get blocked? I'm betting I would. In fact, I'm betting someone would consider blocking me just for raising this hypothetical. But then I'm not an admin with 10,000 edits so I don't have the right to attack people, right? If there is a double standard, then document it. Civility is one of the five pillars, and I am shocked that this community continues to tolerate long term, vicious incivility from a single user. ATren 22:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Please stop. We are being as tolerant of you as we are of JzG. JzG has since walked away, you do the same. Nick 22:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * ATren, just like everywhere in the world, anybody can say anything they like, as long as they're willing to live with the consequences. You might get blocked if you called somebody names, but only until you calm down and stop the name-calling.  Blocks are preventative, not punitive.  If somebody freaks out, yells a lot, and slams the door behind them, there's really no need to rub their face in the fact that they've just made a scene of their anger.  Most things you do wrong carry their own punishments, built in. As for long term, vicious incivility... I've seen several people de-sysoped for something like that.  Editors who've contributed a lot get cut more slack, but nobody can push and push forever. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

"Tolerant of me" - Are you kidding? Laughable! Go ahead and point us to the diff where I did anything wrong. Frankly, this whole thing stinks - why is everyone so eager to hide this thread? ATren 22:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm going to un-archive this thread, since no one's paying any attention to the archival anyway. As to the dispute, this really isn't the venue (see "not the Wikipedia complaints department" and "not dispute resolution"). If you're eager to continue this line of discussion, then I'd suggest a user-conduct request for comment. That way nothing is being hidden and you'll get plenty of outside input. Personally, I'd suggest letting it go, but if you don't feel like doing so, then follow the other steps outlined in dispute resolution. MastCell Talk 22:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I sympathise with the fact that JzG has recently been apparently provoked off of Wikipedia - by trolls and vandals and some such.
 * In response to the desperate attempt to archive and close this thread, in addition I've been asked "what I want done", in addition to the fact that I said I would post the other times that JzG has used a personal attack - so guys, I'm simply stating this for the record, then I'm moving on, okay? It's all relevant... Here goes...

On the other hand I well know that he is old enough and ugly enough ( that's an expression, by the way) to not have to storm off like a baby. Other admins have (above) now said "please be tolerant of him, please be understanding, he got angry" etc etc - he's still an admin, he's still an adult, he has to keep the integrity of all admins.

So I don't think I want JzG blocked or banned, or somesuch, but are we on the same page: held accountable on some level. He seems completely intolerant of this.

Here is my list of at least 4 personal attacks by JzG. Two of them occured today:


 * 1) "Wolff you are a tossblanket" - |this Edit Summary
 * 2) "el ohesra" (arshole backwards) - | this Edit Summary


 * 1) "Areshole" -
 * 2) "edit some articles or shut the fuck up you whining twat" - this diff
 * 3) "Now go away and take your tiny mind with you" - this diff

As some users have pointed out, should this be tolerated by an admin simply because they've done a zillion edits? No, some receourse, some accountability is necessary. Wikipedia must remain civil. Rfwoolf 22:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There is accountability. Wikipedia is completely transparent, and we each have to live with everything we've said and done here.  JzG can never escape the fact that he's the guy who called you an "arsehole" and a "whining twat".  That's on display for everyone to see.  That's a repercussion.  It's a stain on his reputation; a highly visible case of incivility.  We don't do punishment here.  There's no need to take any kind of administrative action to stop JzG making further attacks, so what else is there to do? If you want to open an RfC, then please do so, but this is not a matter for AN/I. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * What, exactly though, do you want us to do. I don't want another stupid list of complaints, I want you to tell us what you want done, because up to now, it's all very childish "he did this and he did that". If you're not going to start making some meaningful suggestions to resolve this issue, I'm going to block every single person who complains for 24 hours in order that they have time to think of ways to resolve this situation. Nick 23:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Response: What can be done? I assume you can give a warning of some kind? A friendly reminder? I'm going to look into RfC. Arbitration seems a bit harsh - and I know JzG hates that and believe it or not I don't want the guy banned or nonesuch. I'll take some time to consider the injustices he has pulled -- and continues to pull - like SALTing an article for 7 months unnecessarily, etc, and then I'll try revert. For now the admins have been informed of the personal attacks, the spiralling debate that JzG has archived, and for now there is stability. Rfwoolf 23:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Why wasn't this followed up? ˜˜˜˜

Request assistance by an uninvolved admin.
I have, for weeks now, been under attack by an editor who has a grudge, apparently for my deletion of a page at some point in the past. They have repeatedly made accusations on my talk page that there are racist motives behind my deletions. The first two such I deleted as trolling. Then they made a third accusation, and began a WP:AN thread with the accusations. Others in that thread stressed that the user needed to back up their accusations with proof. I have since tried to engage the user on my talk page, but it has become obvious that the user does not care to actually read reasoned explanations why they are off-base, but just wants to continue lobbing the accusations of racism at me without making any attempt to back them up. Overall though, I have no clue which deletion of mine could be the cause of all this. Most likely an A7 speedy, from the user's comments, but who knows.

As I am definitely involved in this, it would not be appropriate for me to deal with the continual WP:NPA violations in these unfounded accusations. But if an uninvolved admin could look over the situation and help deal with it, I would appreciate it. - TexasAndroid 06:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I've blocked the IP address for three months, considering that it's been involved in this since at least early June. There's no indication he's done any of use for Wikipedia in the past, and there's no indication he's going to stop anytime soon. I think a nice, long block for such absurd accusations and egregious personal attacks can't hurt. &mdash; Rebelguys2 talk 07:45, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I guess he found a new address earlier today. I blocked that one for a week, because I can't yet tell if there's going to be much collateral damage there. &mdash; Rebelguys2 talk 07:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * He's back again. An account this time.  Sigh.  I'm now going to just resume deleting him as a troll and no longer dignify him with any more responses. - TexasAndroid 00:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Indef blocked. At this point, I'd completely endorse you going ahead and blocking any sign of him yourself, unless he happened to decide to engage you rationally. (Whatever happened to that kind of mentality, anyway?) &mdash; Rebelguys2 talk 08:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Anyone else have any objection to my blocking this guy myself? I've been hesitant to do so because I'm the subject of this guy's ire, thus making me a thouroughly involved person. But being able to block him myself would certainly simplify the situation. A lot easier than having to keep coming here for uninvolved assistance each time he pops back up. - TexasAndroid 13:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Looking it over, I think at this point it's pretty clear it's a basic troll. You've been more than patient and civil, and he's acknowledged he has no intention of providing details of the alleged offense or of doing anything other than posting racist personal attacks.  The AGF phase is over, and he's simply sockpuppeting his way past a block.  Block away.  Kuru  talk  23:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Kuru. Block on sight. --Anthony.bradbury"talk" 23:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Protection, un-protection and re-protection of WP:V
Hi there. Due to conflicts over a re-wording of this policy, WP:V was protected on the 6th July by Quadell. The edits were discussed on the talk page Here and three proposals put up to assess opinion here. There was clear and strong consensus for draft 1. Today, Jossi unprotected the page. Jossi had not been involved in the dispute and last edited the policy in June. I asked Jossi on their userpage here if it would be OK to add the consensus wording to the policy. I checked one last time here if people were OK with the wording. However, when I attempted to add this consensus wording, SlimVirgin, a party in the dispute, reverted this change and indefinitely protected the page. Tim Vickers 22:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The page has now been unprotected by User:John Reaves, who was not involved in the dispute. What do people recommend I do here? Tim Vickers 22:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest leaving it now - if edit warring continues, it will be quickly re-protected by an uninvolved admin per a WP:RFPP request, there's no point in getting into a wheel war over something so small.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  22:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Jossi is heavily involved in the dispute. This unprotection is completely inappropriate. There is no consensus for the changes Tim Vickers are been pushing for, and the page needs to remain stable. That is precisely why Quadell protected it in the first place. SlimVirgin  (talk) (contribs) 23:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well.... I still say let's see what happens. If there is a consensus, everything will be fine - if just one or two editors continue to edit war, they'll get blocked. If there really isn't a consensus, then it can be reprotected when we come to that bridge.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  23:04, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I've gone back to the version that has overwhelming support on the talk page. If I'm reverted I'll just try some more discussion on the talk page, and hope that the people with concerns will get involved. Tim Vickers 23:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

 If there is a consensus... There *has* been overwhelming consensus on the talk page if any impartial editor is willing to look at the discussions. The real question is whether SlimVirgin is willing to let go of her disappointing out-of-process and uncompromising approach and respect that consensus. — Zerida 23:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * This blatant disregard for due process is both alarming and extremely disappointing . — Zerida 23:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Um, without commenting on the actual content of the dispute, I think that reverting a blank edit just because it was made to a protected page (especially since at the time it had been only semi'd by mistake) is surely one of those signs that someone needs to get out and take a few deep breaths (Diffs: ). Confusing Manifestation 00:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * According to SlimVirgin: "There are a small group of editors agitating to add material that would fundamentally alter the policy. They've engaged in all kinds of unpleasant tactics, including personal attacks and starting forest fires in an effort to wear people down." diff No diffs for these supposed "personal attacks" were provided. Tim Vickers 03:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

This is some seriously trivial edit-warring right here. Behold, the great and contentious edit: "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine, and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context. Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text."

"Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources is also welcome in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context. Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text."

Some people need to chill. No one, beyond the most Wiki-lawyering hack would be able to derive any substantive editorial meaning from these two versions. --Haemo 03:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I've proposed that second version on the talk page as a possible compromise version (link), but apparently it isn't acceptable. Tim Vickers 04:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I appreciate stable policies as much as the next person, which is probably why I never edit them. Although I agree with the proposed changes to WP:V in spirit, I don't know what the best wording is, and more fundamentally, I'm not willing to expend a lot of effort fighting City Hall here. That said, the unpleasant tactics being employed to beat down TimVickers are disheartening and lame. MastCell Talk 05:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I completely disagree. I think sentences like "Material from reliable non-academic sources is also welcome in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications" are opaque, poorly-written and openly invite this type of abuse of what our policy actually is.  Notice that it says "particularly if..." which means they don't even have to be from mainstream publications! Wikipedia does not as a matter of policy "welcome" non-academic sources in any of these areas--that's absurd! And I have witnessed editors promote certain claims based on unreliable sources because of just how badly WP:V and WP:RS have become gradually over the past year. They do because they seem to think the policy supports their positions, and they are just as mistaken. — Zerida 07:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course we welcome reliable non-academic sources; we always have. Please give me one example of editors "promoting certain claims based on unreliable sources because of just how badly WP:V and WP:RS have become ..." I would like to see just one example of the policy being used (correctly) to justify the inclusion of nonsense from bad sources. SlimVirgin  (talk) (contribs) 08:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course we welcome reliable non-academic sources; we always have. And I have never said otherwise, but this is about academic topics. Until the most recent changes to WP:V, there was no indication at all that Wikipedia did give preference to academic sources in academic subjects, which it did a year ago. A year ago, we had: "For academic subjects, the sources should preferably be peer-reviewed", not to mention WP:RS was actually worth its megabytes.
 * This is a particularly egregious example of an editor who repeatedly introduced ridiculous claims into many articles through various sockpuppets (and apparently still does) based on the assumption that his sources were reliable within the perimeters of our policy. In fact, it was repeatedly pointed out to him by other editors that his sources were not reliable from a Wikipedia standpoint, but to me, at that stage, I did not feel that the policy made a strong enough case against what ended up being a mass assault on a significant number of articles, all sourced. That doesn't necessarily mean it would have stopped him, or that it will stop others like him in the future, but I maintain that the policy has to be clear enough to eliminate any potential misuse. It is not with that wording at all. — Zerida 09:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, but you're not giving me actual examples. I would like to see an example where an editor actually cited WP:V as giving him licence to use what turned out to be poor sources. I would like to see diffs. I'd also like to see a link for "For academic subjects, the sources should preferably be peer-reviewed ..." What page was it on and when? SlimVirgin  (talk) (contribs) 09:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There is this edit by you to WP:V last October that you described in your edit summary as the "consensus version" link. It states "For academic subjects, the sources should preferably be peer-reviewed." Tim Vickers 17:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Should we save everyone a lot of effort and acknowledge that only a few editors may edit certain pages, while even good-faith, constructive, civil and productive editors—who discuss and build consensus on talk pages—may be subjected to the "unpleasant tactics" described by MastCell if they attempt input on those pages ? Acknowledging and formalizing the status quo could save a future good-faith editor from being subjected to a similar debacle; Tim probably could have churned out a couple more exemplary FAs in the time spent on this.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 22:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Hear,hear. The only time I ever tried to edit a policy page - to return it to a stable version changed without discussion to something with a different meaning -in order to make it 'more readable', apparently! - I was reverted a few times without discussion and then told several times I was doing it to win a content dispute, even after I discussed at length how it was irrelevant to any dispute I was then in. Peh. Hornplease 23:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I've noticed that this "consensus version" was radically-rewritten 14 days later and, amongst other changes, the statement that "For academic subjects, the sources should preferably be peer-reviewed." was removed by SlimVirgin with the edit summary of - "tightened" on 23 October 2006 diff. There was no prior discussion or consultation on the talk page and her only comment on this major rewrite on the talk page was the statement "I've also tightened the writing a bit more." diff. Tim Vickers 22:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Rex Germanus' user page
User:Rex Germanus seems to be attacking the German people. Does this not go against official policy? Kingjeff 14:03, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Diffs to demonstrate this? Heimstern Läufer (talk) 14:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Check his user page. The link I provided goes right to the thing I'm talking about. Kingjeff 15:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You asserted that this editor is in violation of the "No personal attacks" policy. Please provide evidence that he or she has engaged in personal attacks.
 * Incidentally, have you notified this editor that you have raised this issue here? Or discussed it with him or her prior to posting to this noticeboard?  --ElKevbo 03:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record: Due to comments made in the case Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents above, I do not present my evidence against Rex here unless asked to do so by an admin. -- Matthead discuß!    O       03:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Likewise we will not do anything unless you provide evidence, as requested above by ElKevbo. — Kurykh  04:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay then - but where should I start with? It seems Rex has earned most of his blocks on Dutch-related articles, and manages to provoke Dutch editors, but I'm not into Dutch matters, and can only judge from what I have to witness (sigh!) on German-related articles. Rex openly states his motivation on his user pages and on talk pages, and he undoubtedly opposes anything remotely German within English Wikipedia. His countless unilateral attempts to move articles away from German loanwords like Sprachraum to dubious or clumsy terms like "Glottosphere" have been reverted by the community nearly every time - as was his attempt to establish a Dutch term on English Wikipedia that is "associated with the extreme right.". Rex is gratuitous with labeling others as vandals, which FayssalF found out himself on a related page, see below. It's even worse when Rex sees the chance to accuse others to be nationalists, for which he has developed Rex' nationalism scale, or the straigtforward superlative German nationalist . He openly brags about "cleansing this wiki of german nationalists". If nationalist or German nationalist is not enough, he uses Nazi wherever (im)possible. E.g. seeing that the result of the Battle of the Denmark Strait was marked as "German victory", he made the laughable attempt to declare the sinking of the British flagship Hood a "draw"  before he changed it to "Draw / Tactical Nazi victory". Regarding attacks on users, he is on parole for a year , yet got away with edits like "Getting pissed on DBachman and Matthead" and "User Matthead is, once again, looking for trouble ... because that idiot want to irritate people". Rex also developed a habit of replacing comments of others with  , something which he was repeatedly warned not to do . On the other hand, he removes these tags, and threatens a user  after he has falsely accused him of sock puppetry , like Rex did with me  believing I was . Rex even stalked me in an unrelated Arbcom case  were he called me "biased Polonophobic" for which he received kudos   and questions  also regarding his rather provocative German King user name . Basically, I advocate a permanent ban of Rex from all articles related to German, Germans, Germany and even Germanic tribes. As the recent case of  shows, Rex' edits on Wiki can make newcomers angry, yet alone established editors who have to witness his same patterns over and over again. -- Matthead discuß!     O       06:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I have provided a link to what is in question here. I personally haven't discussed this with him but this topic I brought here has been discussed with him. He either is or he isn't in violation. Kingjeff 03:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't see any violation unless you point out exactly how it is a violation. Please be specific. — Kurykh  04:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

"I systematically do not trust German(ophone) wikipedians who spend much time on articles dealing with Nazi Germany, fascism or the German military between 1933 and 1945. I also do not trust people who engage themselves in historical renaming. For example those who support naming Gdansk to Danzig, I'm convinced a large number of these people have a Hidden Agenda." This is a blatant attack on the German wikipedians. This page he has created is more blatant attacks on German Wikipedians. This guideline which states User pages may not have stuff that has "Extensive personal opinions on matters unrelated to Wikipedia, wiki philosophy, collaboration, free content, the Creative Commons, etc." is clearly violated. Kingjeff 04:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You haven't let the user know about this thread. Anyway, i just informed him. Whatever is the case, as i just checked one of the user in question contribs, i found this like bullying and warrant a block by itself. I'll leave some time in order to hear about the real reasons. -- FayssalF  - Wiki me up®  04:16, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Alright then, here we are once more. First let me make this clear:
 * 1) User:Kingjeff: I do not know this editor, and before he showed up at my talkpage and reinserted a removed personal attack by User:Cheiron1312.
 * 2) User:Cheiron1312: New editor, with 5 edits, all related to the Nemi ships. Making gross personal attacks.
 * 3) User:Matthead: This user is, regretably, a familiar name. Though he claims to be "mainly interested in motorsports" his contributions and talkpage comments tell a whole nother story. This person thrives on conflict, especialy with Polish wikipedians, and me, concerning WW2 topics.

I do not attack "the German people". Besides writing or rewriting numerous articles, I try to revert nationalism, and focus on German nationalism, simply because its the form I encounter most.

What User:Matthead posted here, User:Kingjeff seems unable to prove his statement of me attacking "the German people", are not only old comments, but terribly and I mean terribly out of context, not even mentioning unrelated.

To create some clearity in this mess, the entire timeline of this conflict will now be given:
 * Prelude
 * (Numerous conflicts with User:Matthead, due to his edits)
 * Start
 * 19:42, 8 July 2007 an anonymous IP posts a comment on my talkpage concerning the destruction of the Nemi ships. He claims the article is very anti-German, because it says that Germans burned during WW2. This information is referenced and I remind him of this. I also say he should trim down on the pro-German attitude ("defending nazis") he displayes for their conduct during WW2.


 * 05:31, 9 July 2007 the anyonymous IP, now as User:Cheiron1312, replies that he does not considers the source reliable, and then literally says the following: "But maybe i should trust you. The Dutchs have a lot of experience in commiting warcrimes"
 * He then continues his rant, claiming the Dutch are responsible for Apartheid ("the boers were of Dutch decend") he places numbers of Indonesian victims during the Police actions of the Dutch army, and consequently says the Dutch " tasted only a small dose of her own medicine!" during the German occupation. (Do note, that Dutch victims of the German occupation were twice as high as the numbers he gave for the Indonesians. Not that it matters though, as both events were terrible.)


 * 11:31, 9 July 2007  I'm infuriated and warn him this is not the way people discuss or prove points on Wikipedia. I tell him he may consider himself banned (ie I remove all his future comments) if he does not adapt his ways.


 * 18:05, 9 July 2007 User continues the rant. Somehow he interpretes my comments as an acknowledgement that the sources are unreliable (which they're not) and continues to make accusations to the Dutch and myself. Again defending nazis.


 * 18:22, 9 July 2007 18:22, 9 July 2007 as warned before, I remove the comment and replace it with a notice that I no longer wish to speak to him on my talkpage.


 * 20:27, 9 July 2007 User:Cheiron1312 adds a minor personal attack.


 * 20:28, 9 July 2007 I remove it.


 * 20:40, 9 July 2007 Out of the blue User:Kingjeff appears readds Cheiron1312s personal attack and adds his own below.


 * 20:46, 9 July 2007 I remove them again.
 * Aftermath
 * 03:33, 10 July 2007 User:Kingjeff and User:Matthead (who is of course more than willing to cooperate in making someone he hates look bad) start to conspire.


 * This entire report is bogus. I do not attack "the German people" (and no refs have been provided to prove otherwise) I target German nationalism, and as opposed to what Matthead says, I and other wikipedians nearly always succeed, of which this isn't even a real example and Cheiron1213 never implemented his (doubtfull) version.Rex 11:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The original subject of this complaint is a section of Rex Germanus' user page that says: "I systematically do not trust German(ophone) wikipedians who spend much time on articles dealing with Nazi Germany, fascism or the German military between 1933 and 1945. I also do not trust people who engage themselves in historical renaming." I would prefer that Rex not assign editors perjorative labels, but at least his prejudices are out in the open for all to see. I have seen arbitration cases involving editors who were far more POV-prone than Rex but who swore up, down and sideways that they were unbiased and it was the other guy who had an agenda. I see two main problems with Rex; first, the labeling of editors as a way of dismissing their opinions, and second, a strong POV that manifests itself as incivility on user talk pages and edit summaries (exacerbated by people being uncivil toward Rex).

The problem is how to deal with this. Rex's arbitration case places him on probation and allows any admin to ban him from any page he disrupts. However, the allegations reported so far have not been about article disruption, and he has not violated his revert parole recently. Incivility was not part of the Arbitration case, and in any event the Arbitration Committee has recently deprecated civility parole as a remedy (and we all know that "cool down" blocks are rarely effective). In a couple of recent cases the ArbCom has authorized the use of blocks for incivility of a maximum of 1 hour duration, probably on the theory that someone who gets dinged several times briefly might start to think twice before hitting the Save button. I could support this remedy, as long as the blocks were thrown in a timely fashion. Otherwise, I think an RFC focusing specifically on incivility and perjorative labeling might be the next route. Admins don't have a lot of tools for dealing with people who are rude and who have strong points of view when those things are not accompanied by edit warring or other overtly blockable behavior. Thatcher131 15:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * What I posted on my talk page is not a secret, nor is it unbased. The allegation that I target Germans is nonsense, I target the nationalist ones and keep an eye on them. There is nothing wrong with that. I hope I don't have to qoute Jim Wales's statement on neo nazism on Wikipedia? I'm not saying all Germans who edit WW2 articles are nazis, or nationalists, I'm saying I don't trust them. Rex 15:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding "allegations reported so far have not been about article disruption" and "The allegation that I target Germans is nonsense", Rex was in action at Ethnic_German and Germans -- Matthead discuß!    O       16:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think your user page targets users specifically, but I think you should avoid labeling users in your direct dealings with others. For example, you could have addressed Cheiron1312's complaint without labeling him a "revisionist."  Even if it is true, sticking labels on people shifts the focus from the facts at hand to their to their personality, which is rarely helpful in a dispute. Thatcher131 15:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I understand, but that doesn't mean it makes him less of a revisionist or weird editor. I for one can't make out why he objected against nazi amry, but was okay with replacing it with german army.Rex 16:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * As anyone can see from my contribs, I've started editing on Wiki in 2004 mainly in sports-related matters, and got dragged into ongoing disputes only in 2006. Regarding User:Rex Germanus/Original articles, it was him who introduced the List of terms used for Germans into Wikipedia, a list that mainly collects and presents offensive terms. Talk:List of terms used for Germans shows that Rex did not make many friends with his article and his edits. The comparable List of ethnic slurs by ethnicity and Offensive terms per nationality are younger, thus Rex really is a pioneer. Regarding his beginnings, on his 3rd day on Wikipedia, his 8th edit overall claimed that the Franks "originally inhabited the Netherlands and Flanders before they started to fight their way south" which illustrates his Dutch POV on the people that "eventually developed into France and Germany respectively". Indeed, Rex Germanus started to fight his way through Germany on Wikipedia. When will he be stopped? -- Matthead discuß!     O       16:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Boy you're really trying hard aren't you Matthead? You're forgetting one important thing though aren't you? Sources. That's the main difference between you and me, I use them you neglect them. List of terms used for Germans, was inspired by a very interesting boek, onbekende buren, and was never intended (nor ever was) a bash article. It is currently a perfectly acceptable wikipedia article, something you have yet to produce.Rex 16:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The neutrality of this article or section is disputed and the factual accuracy of this article is disputed and both are listed on User:Rex Germanus/Original articles. Rex has contributed to these articles. His personal opinion on a group of people has affected his ability to contribute constructively. Kingjeff 16:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You are seeing ghosts. I am by no means the sole contributor of these articles, and the information I suplied was fully referenced, and my feeling of responsibility ends there. Like I said you're seeing ghosts. I also made an article on Oliebollen a kind of pastry, care to explain how they're anti-German?Rex 16:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

You are the main contributor to Dutch influence on German. This article is factual disputed. Kingjeff 16:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * So? It is still referenced. I'm not responsible for possible errors in a book I choose as a reference. Rex 16:36, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Rex. You haven't addressed my point above (i.e. reverting a legit edit and accusing others of vandalism when it wasn't the case at all). Do you have any reasonable explanation for that? -- FayssalF  - Wiki me up®  16:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh yes of course (though you seem already to have an opinion). If you'll check the history around that specific edit, you'll find a "revert spree". Matthead was inactive for a while then started to revert my edits (without edit summaries) en masse. Including the readding of a template while taggs would have been much better and a false/unsupported merge proposal. Such edits are extremely bath faith and I consider him a vandal for making them. Rex 17:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The opinion i have is that neither you nor Matthead, nor AjaxSmack are well aware of the process of editing.
 * You started an unreferenced article.
 * The article was tagged thanks to User:AlexNewArtBot.
 * User:AjaxSmack added the tagged. It is expected from editors to be aware of How to merge pages before tagging and leaving no starting discussion at any one of both talk pages.
 * Then you came removing both tags w/o any explanation. All your explanation above is irrelevant because at this stage User:Matthead was not involved yet.
 * The first Matthead's edit to the article was reverting your edition. Again, Matthead left no explanation whatsoever.
 * Matthead's innapropriate action was considered vandalism by you. It was not the case. It is not appropriate but it is not vandalism at all.
 * Please note that only User:Haddiscoe's edit, the bot edition were in place and appropriate which is very sad for an encyclopedia supposed to be edited by humans. Also, please follow the advice of Thatcher131 above to not assign editors pejorative labels. I have therefore blocked all the parties (pls read Outcome below). --  FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  20:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Rex, the whole problem is your point of view pushing onto other users and articles you contribute to like the one I just mentioned. Kingjeff 17:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I do not push my view on to others. My point of view has a clear disgust of neonazis and German nationalists hurting peoples feelings by revisioning history. That's not negative, thats positive for the factual and moral accuracy of Wikipedia. Rex 17:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Outcome
As per the above diffs of disruption and totally inappropriate reverting by User:Rex Germanus -adding to that his ArbCom revert parole i've blocked him for 2 weeks. As for User:Matthead, i am blocking him for 48 hours for tedious reverting w/o attempting to discuss which is not helpful at all. User:Kingjeff has already been blocked by Moreschi for 24h for canvassing. I'm extending that block to 48h because of his reverts at Rex Germanus' talk page. User:AjaxSmack has been informed of the merge case and was asked gently to try to discuss in parallel when tagging {merge}. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  20:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Updates


 * User:Rex Germanus has just stated at his talk page that The reason [of this block] is totally unclear and that blocking him because he used the term vandal at his edit summary was a wrong decision. I explained to him again that he was blocked because of the removal of {unreferenced} tag which was totally out of place. As for the 2 weeks period i explained to him that that period is fair as he is already under parole. I haven't blocked him because he designated someone a vandal as i already excplicitly adviced him to follow Thatcher131 advice re that matter.


 * User:Matthead has just accepted his block of 48h. - FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  22:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry FayssalF, I know it must have been one of the tougher calls, but I don’t think blocking anybody here was the right approach. What did the guys do that couldn’t be resolved by our regular processes? And yes I know, I’m using the standard argument to ease on the blocking, but think about it, wasn’t this the "too" quick a solution? What also worries me a bit, is your pointing out of Matthead’s content with the desired outcome, that's is a bit... let’s say... slightly naïve. --Van helsing 23:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see your point Van helsing. It wasn't a quick solution at all. If you check this you'd see that i had explicitly declared yesterday that i can't take any action until i hear enough. What i heard today wasn't something new. Everybody was treated fairly as per all the discussion above. Removing an {unreferenced} tag when the article clearly lacks any single reference is called disruption and warrants a block. 2 weeks for Rex was fair as he has been under parole. Matthead was just reverting non-stop w/o discussion which is called disruption as well. 48h is fair in those kind of situations. As per kingjeff, i fairly extended his block from 24 to 48h because he already know that reverting others' talk pages is called disruption as well. Your suggestion (i.e. DR) has become something very unlikely to happen. There was even an attempt to community ban Rex. Matthead has explicitly acknowledged that he is not ready to discuss anything with Rex. So? If all these people are not listening to others and indeed go on on reverting than i see no other relevant or appropriate action except letting them having a break to ease tensions and avoid that in the future as what they have been doing is just disruptive.
 * Indeed, it was me who closed the community ban case against Rex. This shows that everybody has been being disruptive and maybe these blocks would change their minds when they are back. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  23:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Under Rex's revert parole he is limited to one revert per week, excepting obvious vandalism, and must discuss all reverts on the talk page. He has two reverts on on the same day (July 5) with no discussion, which is a clear violation (and mislabeling them as vandalism, another violation). My first reaction is that 2 weeks is too long, and that something between 48 hours and 1 week would be appropriate. However, his last two blocks for violating his revert parole were a week each and he doesn't seem to have gotten the message. Also, kudos to FayssalF for taking the time to thoroughly examine the behavior of all parties. Thatcher131 23:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your synthesis Thatcher131. I indeed never double when blocking someone who has been blocked before for no reason. 2 weeks instead of a week or 48h instead of 24h really mean (no less no more) that all these users have to take issues seriously and stop edit warring, stop labeling each other pejoratively (vandals, nazis, xenophobic, etc...), start good faith discussions, bring reliable sources. Rex indeed claims above in a reply to Matthead that he is keen to bring sources in contrast with what Matthead is doing. The truth as everybody noted is that i blocked him because he was removing {unreferenced} tag from a really unreferenced article whose he had created! See? Which one would you believe? It is time for people to be responsible of what they are saying and doing here in Wikipedia and be more civil w/ people w/ whom he is interacting. After 48h Matthead should try to discuss his issues w/ people instead of stating that he has decided not to! Kingjeff should calm down and not violate policies re canvassing, reverting and disruption. As for the unknown User:Cheiron1312, that i suppose he is a sock or at least a meatpuppet of someone i don't know. Do you still have CU tools Thatcher131? -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  23:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Not a checkuser. I am suspicious that right after registering he would make Dutch and Afrikaans attacks on Rex, although that information could be found from Rex's Babel boxes.  Even so, it would be far better for Rex to have said, "You may disagree with my source but your theory has no sources at all" than "You are a revisionist so shut up" (more or less). Thatcher131 00:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thatcher131, I've made this update after reading a comment by you that made me believe you had noticed that  made remarks at Nemi ships and Rex's talk before continuing as . I have the impression that the person in question had read the Wikipedia article and decided to protest against the content and those who wrote it.  -- Matthead discuß!  <font style="color:#ffff00;background:#0000cc;">   O       22:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I must admit it didn’t follow what happened yesterday. What I did see is that two guys conspire to get someone blocked. And it appears, the "victim" actually did violate his revert parole 5 days ago, and thus they succeed in their effort. That’s a bit sour if that "victim" had to respond to a lot of flak from similar users in the past. --Van helsing 00:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No worries Van helsing. I don't think it was a conspiracy. It was canvassing in fact and that's why Kingjeff was blocked for before i extended his block. If you follow my short discussion between me and him yesterday at my talk page you'd notice that he left almost the same message there. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  00:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Babakexorramdin
I would like to draw attentions of the admins to. He edits an FA article Iranian peoples in a very aggressive style, edit warring, making personal attacks, assuming bad faith and including his original research. Please check the recent history of the article. Here he rvs the article accusing me of vandalism:  He keeps on including Azerbaijani people in the list of Iranian people and restoring the claim that “due to their historical ties with various ancient Iranians, their cultural ties with Persians, and their proven genetic ties with Iranian peoples, they are sometimes included as an Iranian people, although the modern Azerbaijani language is a Turkic language, with a large lexicon of [Iranian languages|Iranian]] words”, but fails to provide any source that calls Azerbaijanis an Iranian people and removes the tag that I attached to this claim. Moreover, he adds Uzbeks as Iranian people and removes Iranian-speaking Hazaras from the list of Iranian people. In addition to the extreme POV editing, he assumes bad faith and makes personal attacks on other editors, such as this: You, DUE TO POLITICAL RESAONS OF ANTI_IRANIANISM, are violating and vandalizing our pages. Note that POV editing of this person caused objections of some Iranian users as well. I would like to ask the admins to take measures to stop abuse of editing privileges by this user and help maintain the FA status of the article. Regards, --Grandmaster 05:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I would not call all that personal attacks. I've just reminded him of the guideline WP:CITE and the burden of evidence when it comes to the verifiability policy. If they persist, please let me know. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  00:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Calling edits of other editors "vandalism" is a personal attack, in my opinion. In the very least it is a violation of WP:AGF. Thanks for your interference, I'll let you know if this user persists. Regards, --Grandmaster 04:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Stalking by Bharatveer
User:Bharatveer is wikistalking User:Hornplease undoing the latter's edits. While the former is a revert warrior and pov pusher, the latter supports all his edits with arguments, and references. It is clear that the former is vandalising to push his pov. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.91.253.167 (talk)
 * Do you have any diffs to provide that demonstrate stalking? --Hemlock Martinis 08:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. Removing reference, simple unexplained revert, again unexplained revert, no reverting, still stalking, reverting Ragib, revert,

Repeated rv, , , removal of comment about his editing behavious from talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.91.253.167 (talk • contribs)
 * Side comment this IP looks familiar.--Konstable 11:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * To be more specific - the guy is in the IP range used by banned user User:Kuntan might need a block.--Konstable 12:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Stop trolling, Konstable. A good faith edit is a good faith edit. When did you get the checkuser right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.111.87.20 (talk)


 * This looks fairly certain to be a Kuntan sockpuppet, and I've blocked the IP for 31 hours, which should be enough to convince him to move on to another IP. Actually, from the above, it looks like he already has. Even if weren't a sock, it's clearly an experienced user trolling AN/I and equally worthy of a short softblock. I haven't looked at the supposed dispute between Bharatveer and Hornplease, but I'm sure either of them are capable of bringing it to our attention if there's a problem. MastCell Talk 16:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't,though I am undeniably capable of it. There is no problem at this time, of course. I was notified of a complaint filed on my behalf on my talkpage, so looked in here to reassure all those breathlessly concerned. Hornplease 21:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I should add that the second anon IP that commented here,, is a TOR proxy server according to TORstatus, so I've indefinitely hard-blocked it. Is that the proper approach here? I know there's been some recent controversy about how to handle TOR servers. MastCell Talk 16:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You're not the only one who's totally confused about it/ Hornplease 21:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

A Continual History of Harassment from 69.118.129.76
This user is engaging in harassing and disruptive behavior on the page List of people from Ridgefield, Connecticut and is engaging in baiting behavior towards anyone who reverts his or her edits by flaunting warnings on their user talk page. It seems that unless you are an admin, the user will only ignore warnings and harass others even more. I would love to detail each incident but the trail of contributions this user has made speaks for itself. Here is his or her talk page and here is a view of what the user has done on the List of people from Ridgefield, Connecticut  page. And it apparently has been going on for months. —SpyMagician 16:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. Nearly the entire, long, long talk page for List of people from Ridgefield, Connecticut has been an attempt to reason with User:69.118.129.76, and an attempt to come to consensus. But we seem to have had a slew (more than a handful) of single-user accounts suddenly pop up to this user's defense. Then he claims he's got a consensus on his side. He's taking up a lot of time of a lot of productive Wikipedia editors. His participation in discussions has more to do with scoffing at other editors' opinions rather than trying to convince anybody of his own position. Nothing seems to help. Noroton 18:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Just an update but the same user is now doing it again . What exactly needs to be done by this user to get admin attention? The user has skirted 3RR rules, but seems to exist on Wikipedia only to disrupt this one page. A quick glance at the history shows a concerted effort by other users and admins to keep this user in line, but to no avail.  The page was even locked until a concensous could be made and was unlocked when that concensous was reached in the assumption of good faith that this user would abide by group concensous.  And they clearly haven't. --SpyMagician 23:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Personal Attack
I have a personal attack from the user Neptuniandroid on my talk page. How do I remove it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.240.136.81 (talk • contribs)
 * That's not really a personal attack, but removed if it bothers you... you two should endeavor to leave each other alone.--Isotope23 19:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "Dumbass" is certainly a personal attack.-Wafulz 19:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * True, and User:Neptuniandroid shouldn't have said it, but this IP did leave a rather rude comment on that user's talk page first. Both of them need to chill out and be civil, in my opinion. -FisherQueen (Talk) 20:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh, I'm probably a bad judge of that; I've got a very thick skin. To me it was grossly incivil and wholly unecessary, but not a personal attack.  I removed it per the request.  If someone wants to warn Neptune about it, go for it, but as FisherQueen said, there was a history of contact that went back beyond this particular comment.--Isotope23 20:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't find the alleged comment, but regardless, IPs are not always the same person, so this could be one person receiving an insult intending for another. Either way Neptunian shouldn't have made that edit.-Wafulz 20:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You can edit it out yourself by clicking "Edit this page" at the top. However, we're going through some weird technical issues right now, so things might not work correctly.-Wafulz 19:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The Godmother (book)
Hello, would someone please intervene at this article, if you look at the article edits you can see that I believe both the front and back covers of the book in the article should be allowed others do not. Would you please help to make a decision on this to avoid edit waring. Thank you. PianoKeys 20:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Multiple editors have reverted you. If you want to avoid edit warring, I'd say now is a good time to start a discussion on the Talkpage for the article and explain why you feel 2 fair use images are warranted and not decorative.--Isotope23 20:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * WP:NFCC requires minimal use, and the rationale on the back-cover image is not nearly enough to justify overlooking that. There's an easy way to avoid edit-warring on this one, PianoKeys: listen to the users who have told you, over and over, here, on your talk pages, and on article talk pages, that you continually misuse non-free images in various contexts. We'll stop enforcing policy when you stop violating it. (ESkog)(Talk) 20:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Deletion Debate clearly no consensus needs to be closed
Can an admin close Benoit family tragedy as no-consensus. I know it's only been open for two and 1/2 days, but looking at it, one or two users have said that it's a clear no consensus, and just about everyone has different views. Thanks in advance. Davnel03 20:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * At the very least rename that article. "Benoit family tragedy" is patent editorializing.  Try, perhaps "Benoit family murder" or "Murder of the Benoit family".  --Haemo 21:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Except that one member of the Benoit family committed suicide, so your two proposed titles are not only patent editorialising too, but factually inaccurate editorialising. The AfD should run its course, since there is a fairly clear debate between only two options going on, and an admin declaring 'no consensus' at an early stage would just be seen as an attempt to shortcut the process in order to prevent a consensus forming for the 'Merge' side. --82.45.163.18 22:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see any reason why the debate shouldn't go on for the normal period. Who knows, a consensus may indeed form eventually - odder things have happened.  I don't see why there is any pressing need to decide this any quicker. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 22:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed with Morven. No big deal, if there's no consensus when someone does come to close it, it gets closed that way; if people can come to consensus before then, well great! Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Silly request... the concensus is on merge/keep, not delete. This should have been a proposed merge and discussion, not AFD.--155.144.251.120 02:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Fudzilla
Five days has passed on this deletion discussion, and it's still open. I bring this up because the AFD has a ridiculous amount of meatpuppetry in it: we have a large amount of editors (many blue-linked, don't be fooled!) who are from the site (which advertised the AFD) and are !voting keep: claiming that Wikipedia "has no right to decide what anyone reads", "should keep the article undeleted to avoid the appearance of fighting a competitor" - and other brilliant arguments. Any help in closing this dicussion would be appreciated. Thanks. The Evil Spartan 21:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, you could help out by tagging all of the meatpuppets with tags, where they apply.  This will help the closing admin sort of who is making a reasonable argument, and who is not.  --Haemo 21:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I've closed it (I've got my helmet on and I'm ready for the hate mail). Good pickup on the forged signatures that some of the participants were using... MastCell Talk 22:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I guess I wasn't expecting it to take this form: Suspected_sock_puppets. Sigh. MastCell Talk 04:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

User:A31lover
User:A31lover uploaded a junkload of improperly licensed images. I warned him to stop licensing images he got off the internet as pd-self, to which he replied with this and this. Someone please block this guy. The Evil Spartan 22:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I deleted most of his stuff today (something like 20 pd-self images), seems he didn't get the message. indef blocked. -- lucasbfr <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk 23:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Ed Fitzgerald relocating clean-up templates
First, let me start off by saying that I do not believe this is in any way malicious and/or vandalism, but I do think it's necessary to bring it to others' attention. User:Ed Fitzgerald has been relocating clean-up templates in articles so that they are placed at the bottom of the page with a "pointer," or short message, at the top of the article. Several of his changes have since been reverted by various users. I have contacted the user on three separate occasions: 1). when he moved a template to the article's talk page, 2). when he moved a couple templates to the bottom of the page, and 3). recently when I noticed the new development of the "pointer" and after another user attempted to contact him regarding the relocations. Although the user is mostly civil, I find their dismissal of guideline and clearly stated reason mystifying.  I'm concerned that his personal opinion ("the tags, especially multiple tags, disfigure the article, and discourage readers from accessing the material") conflicts greatly with accepted Wikipedia guideline/procedure and that he is not willing to take his (admittedly well thought out and articulated) concerns to the proper channels.  He seems to have dismissed my final attempt at advice (as can be seen by his further template relocating here. María ( críticame ) 22:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Discussion concerning this can be found on my talk page here, and my further thoughts on this and other (related and unrelated) subjects can be found on my user page. Thank you. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 22:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Tags, especially dispute and cleanup tags, play an important role -- they alert a reader that what he is reading may be disputed, confusingly written, poorly sourced, or what have you. It is important that readers are aware of these issues before they read the content on the tag; that is why most tags go at the top of a given article.  You seem to feel that tagging is a way for users to contest the content of an article without editing it -- this is not the case; "drive-by-taggings", that is, without substantive discussion on the talk page, can and should be summarily removed.  --Haemo 23:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There are a number of issues here, but I think the only one in question at the moment is the position of tags, since I'm not eliminating them but relocating them, and providing a pointer to their placement. Anyone interested can follow the pointer and see the tags, as will everyone who reads the article to the end. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 00:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The position is important; people need to be aware of issues on the page before they read the article, not after. Nebulously stating "This page has been tagged" does not help anyone, and would be totally opaque to a general reader.  --Haemo 01:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Precisely. It may appear that tags are addressed to the general reader, but because they represent only the opinion of an editor, and are not in any way definitive, they are better considered as communications between editors, expressing views on how articles can be improved.  If the purpose of a tag is to warn the reader, then there should be some sort of process in place to control their use, to make it the subject of consensus, which there is not.


 * A tag is a flag, saying "Here there is a problem, in my opinion", not a definitive statement, and the audience that cares about possible problems (as opposed to definite ones) is the editors of Wikipedia, and not the readers, two separate but overlapping groups.


 * By the way, you referred earlier to "drive-by-tagging" as if this was merely an occasional thing. In fact, my experience is that the vast majority of tags are placed without any discussion at all on the talk page, and therefore represent the view of a single editor.  They can't even be considered to have been accepted by follow-up editors (as article content can when it passes review and is not changed) because of the taboo against removing them, which is what I'm (in part) currently up against.  (In fact, I'm not removing them, only moving them.) Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 02:00, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * As you have moved unsourced tags on articles which have, in fact, no sources whatsover, I must disagree that the tags constitute "the opinion of a single editor". No sources is simple enough to view and confirm. If there are no sources, this is not opinion. Further, I concur with Haemo - the time to inform readers there is a potential problem or issue with an article is before, not after, they have invested their time and effort in reading it. By burying the tags and adding your non-informative notes in teeny font at the top, you are damaging the credibility of Wikipedia. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua?!? 02:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree with your premise that there is not "some of process in place to control their use, to make it the subject of consensus". The inclusion of maintenance tags, just like any other material added to or taken away from an article, is a matter of consensus among the editors who contribute toward it. As for disfigurement: I'd much prefer a disfigured article than one that incorrectly gives the a reader the incorrect impression that they're looking at well-refined material. There's been mention of "drive-by tagging," but what about the "drive-by readers"? An aesthetically dis-pleasing "Hey, this article is missing reliable sources or is short on citations" can effectively give pause to the folks who are trying to get info. on some nugget they just saw on CSI or are scrambling to write about for English class. I'd much rather "inconvenience" users by making them look at clashing colors and scrolling down a bit more if it also means they know to put a few more grains of salt next to their mouse. --EEMeltonIV 09:39, 7 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Let us come to face with the facts, please: unsourced articles are more the rule than the exception on Wikipedia -- but that doesn't mean that the articles aren't authoritative, factual, informative and interesting. (There are other ways to ascertain an article's value than whether it has sourcing or not.)  But let's not get caught up in ancilliary matters -- to answer your on-topic question, I am not "hiding" tags -- would you say that Categories are being hidden, or External Links, or See Also links?, or links to other Wikipedia projects?  All of those things are at the bottom of the page, which is where I'm putting the tags.  That's a place where they don't discourage readers from using the encyclopedia as a resource, and yet they're available to the people that are interested in them, and to whom they are addressed, the editors of Wikipedia.


 * I'll reiterate, if the intent of tags is as a warning to readers, than there are only a few tags that should be at the top, none of which are internally directed, and the use of tags should be regulated or controlled so that when a reader sees a tag that says there's a problem with an article, they know that to be a reasonably definitive statement, and not an offhand opinion. Failing that, tags are better viewed as communication between editors, and not as warnings to the reader. 02:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Citation tags can be construed as warnings to the reader, as the absence of citations can imply the advice to the reader to take the article with a pinch of salt given the lack of a solid foundation for the article. Citation templates can serve both as a alert for the editor and a warning for the reader, as do most other tags. — Kurykh  02:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Exactly right, Kurykh. I find the implication that there is an audience we as editors should be catering to rather absurd; this isn't a play and we aren't stage hands.  Everyone who reads Wikipedia is a potential editor, and therefore the templates are relevant to everyone.  The reason why they are placed at the top of the page, as is said by the style guidelines, is visibility.  María ( críticame ) 12:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I find the implication that there is an audience we as editors should be catering to rather absurd; What an absolutely extraordinary statement! I'm totally flabbergasted.  What do imagine is the point of Wikipedia, to be a fun place to play around in?  It exists to create a reference work to be used, and the people who use it are the "audience".  Call them what you will -- user base, clientele, whatever, it is for they and them only that the project exists, and considerations about ease of use and functionality should be second only to considerations of factuality of content.


 * Obviously, this aspect of Wikipedia has been given short shrift for much too long, if an editor can make a statement like that in all sincerity. Everyone's all tied up in policy disputes, which serve (badly) to regulate editor behavior, to the exclusion of consideration of the needs of the user. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 13:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You stated that "users of the encyclopedia [are] supposedly our clientele, the people for whom the encyclopedia exists." This is a misstatement: the encyclopedia exists for everyone.  If any reader is a potential editor, than templates are useful for them, as well.  María ( críticame ) 13:56, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, incidentally, very nice attempt to tie in my professional background! Bravo, points for research! But, unfortunately, stage hands don't cater to the audience, they do what other people (director, designers, stage manager) tell them to, so that rather messes up your metaphor.  Besides, as a rather famous thespian once said "All the world's a stage." Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 13:41, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Please be WP:CIVIL, as you have shown you are capable of doing in the past. Not that it means much to delve into the personal, the stage hand comment was a metaphor I pulled not from your life, but my own (speaking as an ex-theatre major).  I was not aware of your profession, nor do I think it pertinent to the discussion.  Let's remain on topic.  María ( críticame ) 13:56, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It's a category error to treat the class of Wikipedia editors as being equivalent to the class of Wikipedia users. It's certainly (and obviously) true that all Wikipedia editors began as users, so that Editors is a subset of Users, but in actuality they have totally different relationships to Wikipedia, and should not be treated as equivalent.  (I'll also say that many editors become so involved in internal Wikipedia matters they really cease to be, in any meaningful sense, users of the encyclopedia.  Their concerns are no longer the concerns of the casual user, and it's this disfunction that I'm suggesting needs to be addressed.)  It's my contention, which I think is obvious from even the most cursory examination of internal pages such as this one, or from a close look at Wikipedia policy, that ease of use and other user-function matters are not given their proper due, and need to be made more important.


 * Also, let me play the Wikipolicy card and cite WP:BB and WP:IAR as justifying my actions. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 15:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Both of which work until and unless one meets with resistance, which you have - quite strong resistance. Please re-read the pages to which you have linked. IAR and BB have limitations - they are not a blanket permission to do whatever you wish against consensus. KillerChihuahua?!? 15:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * "Strong resistance"? I see here three people arguing against what I'm doing, and two people agreeing with it.  I'd hardly categorize that as "strong resistance". Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 16:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Ed is right on this. The tags are opinion graffiti of no value to an intelligent reader. They deserve as much respect as a sidewalk passerby stopping to tell construction workers how to build a building. If an editor wants to express his opinion on an article, but is too lazy to make the changes, look up some citations, or just explain politely on the talk page, he isnt worth listening to. I propose we require editors to earn the right to hang their opinions on articles--- you can place one criticism tag for every measly 2000 characters of text you contribute. Wikipedia needs more workers and less sidewalk supervisors. alteripse 02:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I hadn't heard the phrase "opinion graffiti" before, but it's spot-on. Thanks. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 02:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You are welcome to it. I was tired of feeling like the Lone Ranger on this. Or maybe you can be the Lone Ranger and I'll be Tonto. alteripse 02:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * In many cases I strongly support the approach taken by Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) – I've seen a very good expert editor infuriated and driven from the project by the row over a "TONE" tag placed at the top of an article as a quick and easy way of someone expressing the opinion that the writing was too interesting, without having to bother with explaining themselves on the talk page. There are occasions where, for example, an "Unreferenced" tag is important at the start, but I've seen that tag added to articles that clearly do have references – again, the tagger couldn't be bothered with checking the article or explaining themselves. Tags within sections or at the foot of the article achieve the aim without disfiguring the article as a whole, tags at the head should only be used in specific circumstances. Oh, and we've probably all come across tag vandalism..... dave souza, talk 15:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow, this makes three of us. Anyone else out there? We could start our own cabal. alteripse 19:08, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * dave souza: Tags within sections or at the foot of the article achieve the aim without disfiguring the article as a whole, tags at the head should only be used in specific circumstances. I agree with this, and wouldn't be undertaking my current windmill-tilting if tags were controlled and perhaps redesigned to be less visually disruptive.  I'd also like to point out that I have not been in any way relocating or disturbing the vast majority of section tags, since moving them to the end of the section would not be in any way less disruptive than leaving them where they are, and moving them to the end of the article would make no sense.  I'd still like to see section tags be redesigned to take up less real estate and be less annoying, and their use in some way regulated, but I don't see much point in disturbing them. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 22:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not as conversant with Wikipedia's internal processes as others are, so I'd like to ask: what is the purpose of bringing this particular complaint here? A cursory look at the instructions on the page makes it appear to not be the correct venue for this, but, as I said, I'm not knowledgeable in this rather esoteric area. What is the administrative action that the editor who filed the complaint wishes to bring about? Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 16:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, the pointer I've been putting at the top of articles after moving tags to the bottom has said this: ' This article has been tagged by one or more editors &mdash; please see the bottom of the page for more information. ' This is perhaps too non-specific and presumes that the reader knows what a "tag" is, so I plan to replace it with this: ' Note : For information about the content, tone or sourcing of this article, please see the tags at the bottom of this page. '

Would this be more acceptable to those objecting to my actions? Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 22:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I am admittedly a newbie, but it strikes me that this sort of tag would only be well understood by Wikipedians who have some experience with editing. As a newbie, I find the large references at the point of infraction to be useful, even if only to teach me about what is considered to be good/bad writing. From this point of view, I would advocate a larger notice Jddphd 01:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Point of clarification -- what I'm really trying to say is that Ed's proposal above seems a little too small. Jddphd 02:00, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Jddphd: a little too small That's a very useful suggestion, thank you. I have no objection to increasing the size of the typeface of the pointer, and trying that, so I'll make that change. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 02:36, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * All tags aren't the same. A simple "cleanup" tag might benefit from shrinking and/or relocation. NPOV tags, totally-disputed, unsourced tags, and so on definitely need to be front and centre; they provide vital information to all readers. My apologies if this is obvious. Hornplease 19:23, 7 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Now, I have a complaint: I have not made a massive project out of this, my "initiative" has extended only to articles that I come across in my everyday use of Wikipedia, my thought being that such a small semi-random sampling could be seen and evaluated by the users in context, and perhaps (forlorn hope) catch on. On the other hand, it seems that at least one of the people arguing here against my actions is following me around and reverting my changes (see:, for instance and the editor's contribution page), thus subverting my attempt to allow people to see this and judge it, in context, for themselves and without prejudice.  His action leaves me with no reasonable action besides reverting his reversion, the first step in an edit war that noone wants, least of all me, or meekly acquiescing in his mass reversions and doing nothing.  This doesn't seem fair, especially when the issue is under discussion here.


 * I haven't been around Wikipedia for all that long, just over two years, but I guarantee that the way things are done here is  not  the way they were done when it was founded, or five years ago or three years ago, and at least one of the ways that evolutionary changes come about is by people trying things out and other people taking a look and giving the change a fair shake. The actions of this editor in undoing my changes take away that possibility and is not, I submit, at all in the spirit of Wikipedia.  I think my suggested change has clear value, I think it deserves a chance from editors without an axe to grind to look at it and either leave it or revert it, so I ask that KillerChihuahua be asked to stop following my contribution trail and undoing my efforts. Thank you. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 00:37, 7 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I have updated all the articles I changed so that they have the new pointer I listed above, and also added the pointer to a few articles where I moved the tags before I had come up with the idea of using a pointer to redirect attention to the tags' new location.


 * I have also found it interesting that in going through those articles, only a very few were reverted by everyday editors, the vast majority were reverted by three editors: KillerChihuahua,Maria and AxG -- so there has been, so far, no true picture of what the "grassroots" of the Wikipedia community thinks about this idea, because these three editors have not given them a chance to see it. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 02:31, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you should start a discussion on WP:MOS on the style manual to get a feel for what the community thinks. --Haemo 02:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Last time I checked, there has never been consensus to put the tags at the top or at the bottom. For example, I've been placing unreferenced tags in the references section for some time now. Just recently, there was a message on Template talk:Cleanup by Rich Farmbrough who stated, "many of us support sending all/most of the cleanup-tags to the end of the page. They could also be mad more subtle once there."  I support Rich and Ed in this endeavor as only one small baby step towards a better solution to a serious problem. &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 02:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Haemo: Perhaps you should start a discussion on WP:MOS Sure, that's a possible avenue, but my experience of Wikipedia is that it's generally such an open system that there are a number of valid ways to get things done. Despite (or perhaps because of) my propensity for long-windedness, I'm not a big fan of talking an idea to death as a means of getting something done.  That's why I chose the route I've taken, which appears to me to be justifiable under Wikipedia's (admittedly crazy-quilt) policies. Also, and this may be a sore point, I'm much more interested in the response of the everyday, ordinary, run-of-the-mill editor to this then I am in the response of the editors who gets caught up in policy debates deep in the bowels of Wikipedia.  I think the everyday editors have a relationship with Wikipedia which is closer to that of the user who is a non-editor, and their responses will be mnore indicative of whether the change is useful to the user, as opposed to upholding current Wikipedia practice (which it obviously is not). Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 03:00, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I am a "everyday, ordinary, run-of-the-mill editor" and I believe it is a big mistake to hide what is perhaps critical information from the reader. If an article is potentially deficient, especially in terms of content as opposed to style, a reader should be forewarned in as bold a manner as feasible. A fine-print tag is something I associate with tobacco warnings, insurance ads and snake-oil salesmen, rather than an open honest system that wikipedia aims to be. Abecedare 04:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I would agree with you if the tags were a reasonable guarantee that the problem they announce is actually true, but, in point of fact, anybody can slap a tag on an article at any time, without having to provide justification or proving their case. (I'd also want the tags to be redesigned to be less obstructive, but that's another matter.)  If there was some kind of process or procedure in place to insure that tags were only placed in serious cases, after either extensive discussion or soul-searching on the part of the editor, that would be one thing, but, as I mentioned above, the vast majority of tags that I've found have not been justified or discussed in the article's talk pages, and it's clear that some editors do almost nothing except seek out articles that they disagree with, or which fit some preset conditions, and hitting them with tags.  This kind of "drive-by" tagging is what's created the epidemic, and it's diluted the value of the tags to the point where having them up top is not justified.  But, in any case, the tags are not "hidden", since the pointer to them is right there at the top of the page.


 * I will make an analogy I've made before: if we make an analogy between Wikipedia and a print encyclopedia, opening an article with multiple tags at the top is equivalent to opening the reference book and finding that the article you want is covered in post-it notes containing messages from the book's editors: "I think this article needs some work," "The sourcing on this article is deficient", "Let's get a more global view on this" and so on. This does not increase the user's appreciation of the diligence of the editors, it serves to decrease their respect for the reference work.


 * Now, it's true that Wikipedia is not a print encyclopedia, it's an online encyclopedia (one in the midst of discovering exactly what that means, if people would only let it find out), but the analogy still holds. Tags could be messages to the reader, if they were authoritative (as authoritative as the articles aspire to be) and well-regulated, but in the absence of those attributes, they are merely (at best!) post-it notes between editors, if they are not actually "opinion graffiti". Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 04:38, 7 July 2007 (UTC)


 * But, this is patently untrue; again, you appear only to object to "drive-by" tagging &mdash; a practice which is contrary to the purpose of tags. Tags, especially ones that go beyond simple clean-up requests, can be summarily reverted if they are not discussed.  This has been repeatedly affirmed on numerous pages -- only uncontroversial tags should remain in place.  If you feel a tag is not appropriate, then remove it, don't systematically undermine the purpose of tags by removing them out of sight, and thus, out of mind.
 * Your analogy to a print encyclopedia is perhaps apt. Print encyclopedias are edited, the published -- one would not expect to see "post-its" in a published work.  But, Wikipedia is in the process of being edited.  That is its very nature -- what you are looking at is a work in progress; and its readers are the editorial staff.  The "published" versions of Wikipedia are the CDs the foundation publishes; and you won't see "post-its" in those.  --Haemo 17:03, 7 July 2007 (UTC)


 * To say Wikipedia is a "work-in-progress" is a little misleading, because we generally use that expression for something that's in the process of moving to some pre-set state of completion, but that's not the case here. Wikipedia will never be "completed" unless it is shut down and abandoned.  As long as it exists, it's going to be in the process of being worked on, much like a living entity.  And a living entity exists in the here-and-now just as much as it potentially exists in the future, but we don't expect to relate to other people as they might be someday, we interact we them as they are right now.


 * So as a reference work, we really can't behave as if we're saying to the reader "Please excuse our appearance while we get ourselves in order", the reference work is meant to be used right now, and anything in its makeup which gets in the way of being used right now should be strongly considered for renovation. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 02:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * A fair assessment, in my opinion. Editors in good faith feel they are improving Wikipedia by adding tags when they vaguely feel that improvement is needed. If they raised their concern on the talk page this would be useful, even if half the time the most appropriate response would be sofixit. However, tags provide a message to the world that "this article's rubbish", insulting editors who are doing their best and leading to arguments when the tag is deleted. Where an article is completely unreferenced at tag at the top can be a suitable caution to unwary readers, but when it has at least one reference a more detailed and nuanced criticism is needed: a tag under a "References" heading makes the suggestion, and adds the article to a category for anyone using such categories to find something to do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dave souza (talk • contribs) 09:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with you, dave souza, but your example can be best fixed by common sense; the tag states that the article has no references, so I would hope that any Joe or Jane editor would see that if the article contains even one references, it is not, in fact, entirely unreferenced.  I am obviously one for putting necessary tags for overlong plots, trivia, and similar other section-specific templates in the section it belongs; that's also common sense, I should hope.  I would also hope that templates that deal with POV or OR are placed in a corresponding section, unless it's an extreme case and it is obvious that the entire article needs help.  My concern is mostly with visibility, and the mistaken belief that articles need to be cleaned-up for the sake of aesthetics.  Tags are useful, they serve a purpose, both categorically and accessibly -- why hide them at the bottom of the page?  The "pointer" is also fairly inconspicuous and easily overlooked by Wikipedia's "readers." María ( críticame ) 12:47, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Woops, sorry for failing to sign. It's really a question of balance, and a lack of common sense from some taggers. Dr. Gene Scott desperately needs cleaned up, but the two tags are a bit iffy – "This article has been nominated to be checked for its neutrality." relates to a recent comment "There is not one mention of the man's controversial nature, and bizarre presentation" - there's a source for that in the talk, why didn't the tagger just add a mention? "This article has been tagged since July 2006" as not citing refs or sources, technically true, but the nine external links listed look very much like sources from the days when references which were external links were commonly put under "External links". So, the tagger couldn't be bothered checking to see if these were sources for the article as written, and for a year no one else has bothered either. Tags can tend to be a way of not doing anything. .. dave souza, talk 19:23, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Maria: The "pointer" is also fairly inconspicuous and easily overlooked by Wikipedia's "readers." A number of people have made that objection, here and elsewhere where this is being discussed, and I think it's a valid one. I made the pointer small because I found that the tags at the top get in the way of using the article, but perhaps I made it too small, perhaps there is an aesthetically acceptable middle ground where the pointer is large enough to attract the kind of attention that folks want, but not so large as to disfigure the page and get in the way?  Also, perhaps my second revision of the pointers wording could be beefed up in some way.  Does anyone have suggestions, I'd be very interested in hearing them. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 03:04, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I came here after finding the tags on Dr. Gene Scott at the bottom of the page. (Please don't ask me why I was looking up Dr. Gene Scott :) ) In any case, I disagree that editors and readers should be seen differently. Since all readers are potential editors, a tag at the top of the page encourages participation.  I don't see good articles being tagged.  Tagged articles that I see are usually tagged for a reason.  Especially as a generation grows up with wikipedia, it is important for wikipedia to be honest about its limitations, to be seen as a first source of collective knowledge, and not the authortative source on anything. Tags at the top remind everyone of the limitations of what wikipedia is, and encourages deeper study of the subject, which also encourages better editing of articles. 16:48, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I wrote the above statement, sorry for screwing up the wikicode XinJeisan 16:49, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That is not my experience at all, I'm sorry to say. I haven't done any kind of formal survey, but I use Wikipedia extensively on a daily basis, not primarily for editing, but to look things up, and what I've found is that close to 50% of the articles I reference have tags on them -- and I'm not looking only in a limited range of subjects, I'm generally all over the map. If 50% of Wikipedia's articles are really so deficient that they deserve pointing out their deficiencies to the reader, then Wikipedia is a lot less useful than I've actually found it to be, and it hardly deserves to be used as a reference work.  I don't think that's the case, since most of the articles I read are functional and informative.  (In fact, the biggest problem I've found is that some of the articles are very poorly written.)


 * Perhaps some kind of blue-ribbon panel of well-respected Wikipedia editors should take a look at the tagging situation to see if, as I contend, it's out of control and needs re-vamping. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 03:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I have done a formal survey -- in fact, I've done five of them. In general, less than 5% of all articles are tagged, and even in the most-tagged group, biographies of living persons, only 15% are tagged.  Either you're viewing a very atypical selection of articles, or you're experiencing confirmation bias. --Carnildo 04:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Really!? That very much surprises me, because I spread out across a fairly wide range of subjects, and it's not my experience. I'd love to see whatever information on your survey that you have -- methodology, sample, results.  Thanks.  Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 15:37, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The surveys are at User:Carnildo/The 100, User:Carnildo/The 100 Biography, and User:Carnildo/The Living 100 Biography (partial survey, only 65 pages rather than the intended 100). Sampling methodology was to click Special:Random until I found enough articles that met the criteria for the survey, recording interesting information about each article.  "The 100" was re-checked three months, six months, and nine months later, to see how the articles changed over time. --Carnildo 02:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm with Ed, alteripse, and dave. References go at the bottom; that's why they're called footnotes. For exactly the same reason, tags, which are a sort of anti-reference, also belong on the bottom. All that needs to be at the top (if that) is something to indicate that the tags exist, and then anyone who's interested in seeing them can look at the bottom, just as people do now if they're interested in seeing the references and other footnotes. Zsero 02:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I see no analogy between tags and footnotes. As I said, some tags need to be front and centre, to alert all readers that an article's content is disputed. Hornplease 08:14, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * First of all, I think a similar activity (and one which is almost universally recognized as positive) that you may want to consider is moving tags to the appropriate section for articles where the tag only applies to a small part of the overall article (especially true for POV problems).
 * That said, I think whether to tag on the top or the bottom depends very much on the nature and severity of the problem. If an article is sourced but is just not particularly well-written or formatted according to WP standards, okay, tag it at the bottom.  That's more of an administrative issue than a warning.
 * On the other hand, for articles that have significant POV problems or have literally no sources, I strongly feel the tag needs to go at the top. By the time a reader gets to the bottom, they may already have changed their opinion, possibly based on wrong information.  This is a very bad thing.
 * To sum up: If there are no major concerns about the accuracy and neutrality of the article, okay, I think Ed Fitzgerald has a point.  The tags on top is a bit ugly.  But articles that are inaccurate or biased should be made ugly with a tag, so that all readers are 100% clear that what they are reading may not necessarily be on the up and up.  --Jaysweet 17:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I strongly support that as a reasonable compromise. Hornplease 00:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I hope so -- any ideas about what direction that compromise should go in? Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 02:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Jaysweet: But articles that are inaccurate or biased should be made ugly with a tag If the tags were authoritative, that would be a different situation, I agree, but what mechanism could be put in place to assure that? Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 02:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I strongly support continuation of status quo. There appears to be a contradiction - Ed wanted to prevent articles from being defaced he is still leaving a tag up front. So he went in for small text. But he is not adverse to increasing their size, as per his comments above. This then contradicts the whole purpose. Any tag is ugly! If we dislike the tags, time is better spent addressing the problem and removing the tag - by cleanup, referencing, etc. By shoving the tag you only hide the issue - that there is a problem with the article. AshLin 16:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I think there's a clear aesthetic difference between a single line of bolded text, even if it's bigger than the small type I used, and those huge and unsightly tag boxes which seem to grow bigger and uglier, with more and more text in them, every day - especially (as is the case with some frequency) when there is more than one tag on the article. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 02:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

This issue is being discussed at Templates for deletion/Log/2007 July 7, where the "pointer" and templates at the bottom is meeting very strong resistance. I also strongly support keeping the status quo, in which tags will remain either at the top of the article or the relevant sections so that they will be readily visible, therefore fulfilling their purpose. María ( críticame ) 13:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Mariam83 blocked indefinitely
This user has created havoc in all main North Africa-related topics' talk pages since she started editing a few weeks ago. Mariam83 tried very hard to prove that she is right and the rest weather they are real self-hating negro Sudani black man(s), lunatic(s) or anything related to offend black people in particular. While she could have been a benefit for wikipedia -like when she is not slurring she brings some notable sources although blurred by the noise, this user has been more a disrupter than someone keen to work w/ others w/o intentionally trying to offend them. I may feel sad for wikipedia for losing a potential positive contributor (editing since June 2007) but my zero tolerance to racist and very offending slurs makes me feel no sorrow for any potential thought whatsoever especially that she was given more than few or little chances to stop that behaviour and contribute safely and gently. Her talk page history is full of comments of a dozen of editors and a few admins' notes/ re her behaviour as well as two block notices. That same talk page that nobody cared for so long to revert as it was made sure to be kept empty at all times. It was like ohh you bastards and filthy and uncivilized negroes, do not talk to me! And between this and that (chrono order):


 * This i consider the most awful one. It was against User:Deeceevoice. That was very sick
 * accusing me of being corrupted,
 * block evasion or meatpuppeting (according to her). She acknowledged that she really had some off-wiki consultations w/ some friends
 * making legal threats against four contributors
 * "You are also in dire need of a history lesson" This is what i was told on June 24th as if i she was believing that i had to believe like she does as we both come from North Africa
 * a kind of interrupted wiki-break w/ the minimum edits possible and some kind of reasonable and civil conversations mixed w/ references from Britannica and some other notable ones
 * ...and then came today when i noticed these new ways and stylish and more sophisticated racist remarks

Since this user has been more active in violating NPA many times i blocked her for that said reason. This means that she could have been blocked for disruption, BATTLE, edit warring, ABF as well. All in all, Mariam83 has been having conflicts w/ around 5 admins and around 6 or 7 editors. That's quite a real battle. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  02:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I endorse this block. Mariam83's behavior has been absolutely inappropriate. FayssalF did the right thing in blocking her to prevent further incivility and harassment. Picaroon (Talk) 02:16, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Quite right, block with/due to extreme prejudice. Tim Vickers 03:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Probably a troll. (I hope it was a troll, would be even scarier to imagine someone really thinks that stuff...). In either case, goodbye, don't come back, very strongly endorse block, etc. etc.. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks mate, the behaviour was impossible to deal with - pity as I noted at Bouha talk page, as it was clear "Mariam" had some real knowledge, but either trolling or really bloody loony (the usages of Abid etc struck me however as real profound racism). collounsbury 15:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC).
 * She was back emailing me as usual w/ her rant and slurs (i.e. accusing me of having some weird sexual relationship w/ you in particular). Added her few email addresses to spam. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  17:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I wholeheartedly endorse this indefinite block. This alone should be anyone's last edit.Proabivouac 07:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, and in fact I'm disgusted this person was allowed to stay here for an additional three weeks. --Golbez 07:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * User:Mariam83 has gone too far with personal attacks. I too support indefinite block --Aminz 07:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * ...She even sourced her racist attacks against DCV indeed. Something new at wikipedia. Now she is back w/ socks. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  07:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It is new indeed :) --Aminz 07:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Accusations
User:Raul654 user has accused me of being someone from the Intelligent Design folks. This is a defamation and a personal attack. See. He also blocked me. User:Filll alleged that I promote Intelligent Design. That's no better. See These are gross violations of WP:AGF and WP:NPA. --rtc 18:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The comments themselves aren't particularly actionable, as far as I can see. The block strikes me as a bit of a strong reaction but contraversial articles sometimes require a more stronghanded approach to disruptive editors (I'll admit I'm quick to apply a block at Talk:Muhammad).  Have you tried talking to Raul654 to find out exactly what he finds objectionable about your behaviour?  Your logs are kind of funny, and it's hard to see what's going on sometimes - anyways, Raul654 is one of the best and most reasonable administrators around - without a lot more to go on, people are unlikely to take complaints about him seriously.  Cheers, Wily D  19:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * As below, my reading of your logs was complicated by the Wikipedia:Wikipedians issue, and I was unable to get a complete picture. Wily D 19:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I was a little bit pissed off one day at the Intelligent Design talk, but that doesn't justify calling me a creationist or intelligent design guy. I find that a highly objectable accusation. I tried to contribute some knowledge I have about philosophy in general and Karl Popper in particular, who was a quite liberal philosopher (see Critical Rationalism), and some of his adherents seem in fact to argue pro Intelligent Design (I added a note about it to the Critical Rationalism article), which I didn't know until recently. But calling me a ID proponent just because I try to contribute with knowledge about Critical Rationalism is a little bit too much. It may well be true that Raul654 is a good contributor, but he is quite hostile towards me. I didn't even know him before I found myself blocked by him. I never talked to him, neither before nor afterwards. Why does he use these personal attacks without knowing me? --rtc 20:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That's something you would have to ask him. Try talking to him, rather than about him.  Wily D  20:16, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Is this a technical problem?-Wafulz 19:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, every single link in your log is messed up.-Wafulz 19:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Nevermind, it's a general technical issue.-Wafulz 19:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps RTC means well. However, it is difficult to tell sometimes, particularly on very contentious articles. If he really thinks that we have misinterpreted Popper's views, he should write an article in a sandbox with lots of references, so we can understand what his point is and how well supported his views are.--Filll 15:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Bizarre glitch?
Can someone look at the edit history of Wikipedians? It looks like various reverts and maybe other edits of articles are getting dumped into that page for some inexplicable reason. You just have to look at the last 10-15 versions in the history to see what I mean... I edited a different article and Wikipedians showed up in my contribs list. --W.marsh 19:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Same here. The specific page I was attempting to edit was Conestoga High School.  --ElKevbo 19:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * My sister went to school there :)--Tom 20:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I thought I was the only one getting that. It's showing up on several people's contribs lists. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 19:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Every diff comes up as having edited "Wikipedia:Wikipedians, [correct page]"-Wafulz 19:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I full protected the page... seeing if maybe that will at least alert people before they waste an edit. --W.marsh 19:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah good, I thought I was having a flashback...--Isotope23 19:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

There is some problem with the mediawiki software after an update. Please stand by and wait for it to be fixed. --rtc 19:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Being discussed at VP Tech as well. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  19:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Since Wikipedia:Wikipedians is fully-protected, articles which are normally unprotected can now not be edited by reverting to an earlier edit, I think. --Fbv65 e del / ☑t / ☛c || 20:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Not exactly. When this glitch kicks in, the content is for the article you think you are editing, but if you look at the top of the screen is actually says Editing Wikipedia:Wikipedians. The articles themselves aren't becoming protected...you just aren't actually editing those articles. <b style="color:green;">IrishGuy</b> <sup style="color:blue;">talk 20:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The protection was the first thing I noticed; I went to do an edit and saw that I saw editing a page that only administrators could edit. I was confused at first, but then I realized it was a bug. Acalamari 20:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Apparently it's been fixed now? --W.marsh 20:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yup, all better now. <font color="#151B8D">K <font color="#7D1B7E">O <font color="#6D7B8D ">S | <font color="#461B7E">talk  20:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi. You know, this is a very bizzare and rare occurence. So, how about adding this story to Signpost? It would make a very interesting story. Thanks. ~ A H  1 (TCU) 16:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

SCOX Issues User:Kebron
This user is an SCOX troll here to follow me around and revert edits. He has been repeatedly told to stay away from me on the site and is not listening. This is the third time this person has been warned. How about a block for him to send the message home. Thanks. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 20:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Jeff, can you post some diffs where he was warned?--Isotope23 20:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Would take some time. I could post them this evening.  Will take some time to research.  Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 21:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * What's the point of warning a harassment-only account? If the user actually listens, they would leave Wikipedia, exactly the same result as if they were summarily indefed. More likely, they will do a few unrelated edits or just wait until people have stopped paying attention, as Kebron has. Not that Kebron has not made some valid points here and there, for Merkey is not always correct…but even were Kebron always correct, there is something deeply unwikipedian about following someone around and confronting him at every turn. Wikistalking is an offense in itself in addition to whatever disruption might (or not) accompany it.Proabivouac 01:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Eagerly awaiting to see this evidence. He made a similar claim when he got me blocked over my complaints about his POV and COI re Mormons, but never offered proof that I was ever warned specifically re him. Pfagerburg 16:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Indeed, Kebron is an anti-Merkey-only account, see contribs. He went and did a few Canada-related edits when the harassment was being discussed on WP:AN, but is back to Merkey.Proabivouac 23:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Mr Merkey has edited 20 articles +/- in the last month.... I have edited once or twice here and there.... this is considered following and harrassement? I do not agree. --Kebron 13:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Excuse me.... once again... I have requested what I have did wrong? I am not allowed to revert something that needs reverting? Was I wrong in the reverts that I just did? --Kebron 03:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not individual edits that I'm taking issue with, it's the overall pattern of your contribs since you started. There is one and only one common denominator which ties together the areas you've edited, and that's Jeff Merkey. Why is that?Proabivouac 04:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * So I... personnaly as an editor am forbidden from touching ANY artcile edited by Mr Merkey for all time? Have I been insulting to him? Have I violated a three revert rule in a edit war with him? I wish to make it clear. Are you requesting that no matter what, I am forbidden from editing ANY article at the same time as Mr Merkey? EVEN IF the edits are correct? --Kebron 10:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, in light of your edit history, that's exactly what I'm saying. As if someone in the real world followed you around all day correcting your grammar and telling all your faults to everyone you meet, that they might (or might not) be correct is entirely beside the point. Merkey feels stalked and harassed by you precisely because you are stalking and harassing him, and have been for several years now. "Good faith wikistalking" is not a concept we should be willing to accept. Harassment-only accounts aren't respected members of our community. Go find something else to do, either not involving Merkey or not involving Wikipedia.Proabivouac 11:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * See this SCOX thread, where this issue is being discussed, and the fate of Username:Kebron is being taken…quite personally.Proabivouac 11:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Probiviouac, that post you cite also accuses Merkey of lying about Kebron, no doubt because, to the best of our (as a user of the SCOX board) knowledge, Kebron doesn't actually post there. Even if it was true, being a user of the SCOX board isn't, by itself, a crime against Wikipedia - guilt by association is never good policy, and anyways, Jeff often posts there himself. If SCOX is concerned about Kebron, it's because 1) they're always happy to find some reason to complain about Merkey 2) Nowadays they tend to complain about Wikipedia admin a lot, for their tolerance/kowtowing of Merkey and 3) Some of us are Wikipedia users who've been witchhunted before over this issue and it's something that genuinely concerns us. I've already been (wrongfully) indef blocked mostly for an edit that was in part trying to correct an admin's impression that Kebron was a SCOX troll. When I see people being threatened with adminnery partly because Jeff just asked someone to do it, then this is what springs to my mind. Kebron doesn't have to be a user of the SCOX board for the SCOX forum to be interested in his fate. --Aim Here 14:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I am not responsible for what happens on that board. I have stated many times that I do not use that board, no matter what Mr. Merkey says. That board is obsessed with Mr. Merkey and since I happen to edit on occasion an article by Mr. Merkey they comment about me. I expressly request a second opinion on the matter. If my edits are considered harassement, what about the edits on any Morman topic by Mr. Merkey? He has stated on Wikipedia his beliefs on the suject and has made extreamely hatelfull edits. So following your logic why is Mr Merkey not banned from editing anything Mormon? --Kebron 12:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Your first edits were to a now deleted version of the bio page on Merkey. Most of your subsequent edits relate to Merkey, SCO, and Groklaw as well (excepting the occasion edit elsewhere and your late May interest in Candian topics).  I'll stop short of calling it stalking, but even assuming good faith you seem to be preoccupied with editing articles Merkey has edited.  Maybe it's time you took a break and went back to the Canadian related edits for a while.--Isotope23 14:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

SCO and Groklaw are now under the umbrella of Merkey? Wow. Just WOW.

Isotope23 and Proabivouac, have you considered that Kebron is not following Merkey around, but rather following a disruption in a certain area, namely Cherokee-related articles? After all, if Kebron were a SPA as Merkey claims, and you are inclined to agree, then why isn't Kebron editing every article that Merkey touches, including all of Merkey's unsourced or unverifiable statements in Mormon-related articles, the outrageous libel in the Eric Schmidt bio (material that has since been removed), or the Daniel Brandt saga?

Carefully review the diffs of Kebron's edits. Merkey removed sourced materials, and Kebron put it back with questions about why an entire paragraph should be removed because of a problem in the last sentence. Kebron scrubbed a very POV "(wannabe)" from a title, and suddenly he's committed a federal offense by aiding and abetting Indian identity fraud. Kebron denies being a "SCOX Troll" and so the accusation is repeated more vehemently. Kebron is working through very serious issues of disruption and POV-pushing, usually with a polite response, but at every turn, Merkey lobs accusations of "SCOX Troll," "wikistalking," "sockpuppet of banned user Vigilant," and so on, rather than responding to the questions and valid criticisms.

I don't think Kebron is an SPA against Merkey, but rather against the disruption that Merkey is causing in the Cherokee articles. Following a user is "wikistalking" (which does not show up as a word in any reputable dictionary, BTW), but following a disruptive action and attempting to minimize it is part of being a good wikipedia editor. Pfagerburg 14:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * This is another single purpose stalking account User:Pfagerburg. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 15:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It seems that disagreement equals trolling or stalking in your mind. Check my recent contribution history, particularly post-unblock. Pfagerburg 16:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Who said anything about SCO & Groklaw being under the "umbrella of Merkey"? My point about Groklaw, SCO, etc. was simply that  apparently started editing here on those topics, all of which have some relation, then seems to have changed gear and started showing an interest in Native American related articles that Merkey was editing.  As I said above I stop short of calling it stalking, but Kebron's contributions don't exactly bear out your theory of "following a disruptive action and attempting to minimize it"  and I reiterate my comment above that if he wants to be a "good wikipedia editor" as you've put it, perhaps he should find some other set of topics to edit for a while.--Isotope23 16:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You brought up SCO and Groklaw as if they added weight to the SPA allegation. If they are unrelated, then leave them out.  What if Kebron is knowledgeable about Linux and Cherokees?  (Don't say it can't happen - Merkey claims knowledge of both.)  So Kebron is editting the SCO and Groklaw articles, and becomes awake of Mr. Merkey, since Merkey was a topic of discussion in those areas.  And then Kebron sees that Merkey is concentrating on two main areas: Cherokees and Mormons.  Not knowing much about Mormons, but knowing about the Cherokee, Kebron tries to contain the damage from the POV pushing.  And now gets labeled a "SCOX Troll," a stalker, and an SPA.


 * I began making contributions to the Atmel AVR articles about a month ago; I've been using chip since 1999.  If someone begins inserting unsourced material there, pushing a POV like "AVR is a wannabe-RISC," or accusing people from the ATML stock board of coordinating an attack on him, would I be an SPA for trying to contain his damage to the Atmel AVR and related articles?


 * So who's going to tell Mr. Merkey to "find some other set of topics [other than Mormons and "wannabe" Indians] to edit for a while"? When does Merkey's disruption and his litany of sockpuppet allegations rise to the level that he gets told to knock it off?


 * Pfagerburg 16:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * My point was simply that there is the appearance of a pattern here. Your contention that we suddenly have 2 contributors who are interest and or involved in that disparate range of topics is something I find a bit unlikely given the fact that there is a much simpler possibility here.  Looking at the edit history, Kebron was inactive while Jeff was on his Mormon bender and when Kebron returned to editing he did get involved in category deletion discussions that Jeff was involved in.  The data seems to invalidate your theory.  The bottom line is that I don't see any reason to block anyone at this time, but Kebron would do well to expand his horizons here before his contributions cross the line into actual stalking.--Isotope23 17:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * And my point is what is wrong with any of my edits? As was pointed out, I have been and continue to be polite in my requests to cite sources, or reverting. Please, aside the fact that I am editing articles by Mr. Merky, are any of my edits wrong? Against Policy?--Kebron 17:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm glad that you agree that there is no cause to block Kebron. Now how about admonishing Merkey for bringing his off-wiki battles to this page and to checkuser?  See the link below - someone disagrees with him, and suddenly we need a checkuser.  See this entire thread - someone disagrees with him, and is trying to contain his damage in a single subject area, and suddenly we need to get admins involved to talk about who's stalking whom.  I chime in with my two cents (being a recent victim of Merkey's complaints resulting in a 2-week block) and suddenly I'm stalking, too. Pfagerburg 17:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It seems Mr. Merkey continues to accuse anyone who disagrees with him of being a SCOX troll, sockpuppet, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACherokee_Freedmen_Controversy&diff=143843707&oldid=143837850
 * Are you surprised? That issue will never actually be dealt with, though, because we're too busy hunting SCOX trolls to actually consider Merkey's behavior. -Amarkov moo! 16:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It's blatantly obvious that account is SPA at Cherokee Freedmen. The editor inserted uncited statements attributed to four Cherokee Nation officials and the Chief of the Keetoowahs claiming they made racist statements.  None of the cited materials contained the statements.  Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 17:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Abusive sockpuppetry by The Cunctator
recently reverted the edits I made to to bring it into compliance with WP:BLP. In performing this reversion, User At Work restored much unreferenced, inadequately referenced, or original research controversial material concerning a living person, in blatant violation of WP:BLP. He also added the offending material to the talk page of the article. In response, I issued a warning to User At Work, removed the offending material, and made a report on Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. recently responded to this report as though he were User At Work! The Cunctator claimed that "I don't argue that he can find policy justification for repeatedly threatening me with being blocked", even though I issued the template:blp2 warning to User At Work, not the The Cunctator, and I reverted edits on by User At Work, not the The Cunctator. Employing an abusive sockpuppet to in engage in blatant violations of WP:BLP is not appropriate behavior for a user entrusted with administrative privileges on Wikipedia. John254 01:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Abusive sockpuppetry would be using a sock to avoid blocks and 3RR violations, or create the appearence of a non-existent consensus. Is there any evidence he actually did this?  WP:SOCK does allow sockpuppetry under some circumstances.  Do the two users have a history of taking part in the same discussions (while not posing as the same person) or editing the same articles?  Someguy1221 01:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That has never happened. The only reason John254 is able to make this incorrect claim is because I obviously wrote that comment as User At Work but accidentally logged in as The Cunctator. --User At Work 04:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Sock_puppetry expressly prohibits the use of sockpuppets to engage in policy violations, even violations unrelated to any actions with one's main account: The use of alternate accounts for deliberate policy violations is specifically proscribed: The Cunctator's use of User At Work to engage in severe WP:BLP violations on is a clear violation of WP:SOCK. For an administrator such as The Cunctator to engage in this sort of abusive sockpuppetry is indefensible. John254 02:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * All users, but especially admins and potential admin candidates, are proscribed from operating a "bad hand" account for the purpose of policy violations or disruption.
 * But until the sock is actually confirmed by community consensus or administrative action to have violated policy, he's still not assumed to be in violation of WP:SOCK. Someguy1221 02:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm not an administrator, and I don't claim to speak on behalf of the Wikipedia community. However, I would submit that some of the material that The Cunctator restored on  constitutes a blatant violation of WP:BLP.  I would submit that controversial material concerning living people sourced to political attack websites, political blogs , and original syntheses of sources to draw general disparaging conclusions  is inappropriate for posting on Wikipedia. John254 03:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, until recently, The Cunctator maintained User:User At Work/Pols under investigation as an entirely unsourced list of accusations of crime -- see the revision as of 15:19, 15 August 2006, which was in place for nearly a year. If such entirely unreferenced and blatantly negative information concerning living people doesn't constitute a severe WP:BLP violation, then I don't know what does. John254 03:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * ...In this case i believe you may need to request a CU instead. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  02:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I will submit a checkuser request. However, I also believe that The Cunctator's recent edit provides almost certain proof that he is using User At Work as an abusive sockpuppet. Consider the following "I did not summarily revert John254's mass deletion of content -- I restored some of the content, edited much of it, left some deleted." (as User At Work ) then "I will simply respond to say that my comment 'I did not summarily revert John254's mass deletion of content -- I restored some of the content, edited much of it, left some deleted.' is factually correct." (as The Cunctator ) John254 02:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I have posted a checkuser request at Requests for checkuser/Case/The Cunctator. John254 02:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Good lord. There's no need for a checkuser. User At Work is an account I use for perfectly legitimate reasons. John254 has been harassing me in ever escalating fashion over a disagreement with a single edit I made restoring some content he deleted. I'm starting to get pretty irritated at his vitriolic and histrionic claims. --The Cunctator 04:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing abusive about Cunc's use of a sockpuppet in this case. And from skimming that revert, I don't see any BLP problems. So unless until John254 wants to mention some specific BLP issues, I see no problems here. Raul654 04:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Some specific WP:BLP problems with this diff include:

(1) Restores "2004 criticism of Ohio Governor Bob Taft" section, which constitutes inadequately referenced controversial information concerning a living person, since it is sourced only to a political blog.

(2) Restores "Personality" section, which constitutes inadequately referenced controversial information concerning a living person, since it is original research, using the synthesis two opinions to advance a general negative claim

(3) Restores "Alleged money laundering" section, which constitutes inadequately referenced controversial information concerning a living person, since it is sourced only to a political attack website (later removed from the article, but added to the talk page; the prohibition on inadequately referenced controversial information concerning living persons applies to talk pages.)--John254 08:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * And what did John254 do? He redeleted those sections. I was fine with that, as I've stated before. His interpretation of those sections is frankly biased. His judgment of what constitutes an unacceptable attack on a living person is highly skewed. And since my bias leans in the other direction, if he were willing to assume good faith and edit the articles with me, we would end up with a better encyclopedia. But that doesn't seem to be his goal.--User At Work 14:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, as User At Work, The Cunctator has been maintaining this WP:BLP violation for nearly a year. The use of a sockpuppet account to engage in these WP:BLP violations is inconsistent with Sock_puppetry, which states that "All users, but especially admins and potential admin candidates, are proscribed from operating a 'bad hand' account for the purpose of policy violations or disruption."John254 08:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, all throughout 2006, both accounts were heavily involved in editing articles related to the Jack Abramoff lobbying scandal. There are definitely some edits to the same articles, although I didn't count them, but more generally a pattern of editing articles within the same constellation.  The Cunctator also protected and semi-protected Jack Abramoff several times even though he was involved in editing the content, although no one seems to have complained at the time.  User At Work's contributions are so politically charged that I doubt he would ever pass RFA if he ran on his own record, see for example the creation of Americans Against Hate (Stephen Marks).  Also, his edits to Grover Norquist definitely have some BLP problems, although perhaps not as severe as John254 would allege.  And, of course, User At Work wass never acknowledged to be an alternate account, something that is preferred.  This situation troubles me, but I would like some more feedback before I do anything else. Thatcher131 13:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Noone complained at the time because my edits and actions were responsible. I doubt I would ever pass RFA on my own record; see User:The Cunctator/Bias Talk. I've never claimed to be perfect, but I've always been a serious contributor and have always respected fellow Wikipedians. The Norquist thing is antagonizing -- this whole kerfuffle is arising because John254 is yelling about a single edit he disagreed with. So he reedited Norquist in what I thought was a reasonable compromise. There hasn't been any editwarring. Just his repeated accusations of bad faith. --The Cunctator 14:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I think this is probably ripe for arbitration. The allegations of abuse of admin powers, and of long term disregard for the biographies of living persons, should at least be given a sniff test by the arbitration committee. --Tony Sidaway 13:19, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Arbitrate away! I've been waiting for the Great Review of The Cunctator. Maybe you should check if any of these allegations have merit before you call for arbitration, though. But if you want to waste people's time, feel free. --The Cunctator 14:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Recommend strong warning/admonishment, immediate disclosure, and acknowledgment that this is a problem never to be repeated by user TC/UAW. The basics of WP:SOCK is not to pretend to be two people. The easiest and classical way to do that is to try hard never to edit the same articles. I don't see "would never pass RFA" is necessarily true, given that User:The Cunctator is one of the oldest users on the whole Wikipedia (debated with Larry Sanger!!!), and controversial subject matter isn't necessarily a disqualifier (heck, I passed RFA, and roughly half of my focus is rather controversial too). However, editing the same articles is bad. I recommend:
 * User Alternate Acct on User:User At Work and User:The Cunctator
 * Same on any other accounts that edit the same articles
 * Strict adherence to never using admin powers on an article any identity is in a good faith edit dispute about, with good faith interpreted very broadly - if there is any doubt, ask someone else to do it, we have a thousand admins
 * The equivalent of an arbcom admonishment; if similar questionable behaviour is repeated, fast track desysopping by arbcom.
 * Agreement to all these terms by The Cunctator/User At Work, and, ideally, a couple of arbcom members, so the above proviso has teeth. If not, unfortunately, this should be taken to Arbcom, where, I'm afraid, the above terms are the best TC/UAW can realistically expect. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 14:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting recommendations. Heh--"debated". We had an all-out flame war. If someone can demonstrate where my behavior was actually problematic, I would love to see it. So far all I've seen is accusations and calls for punishment based entirely on assumption and legalistic readings of policies meant to handle bad-faith editors. But hey, if you want to involve the ArbCom, let's do it! --The Cunctator 15:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Discussion has spread to my talk page. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 17:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Replaceable non-free images
Greetings, all. I've been taking care of the backlog of Category:Replaceable fair use images, and I deleted Image:Almstilhs052030.jpg, since it was a portrait of a living celebrity and had been tagged with rfu for over 7 days. User:Badagnani seems to have goaded the uploader, User:Mosquera, and it seems to have worked. See User talk:Quadell. Mosquera re-uploaded the image, and I redeleted the image and warned him not to reupload images that has been deleted according to process, but to list them on Deletion Review if he thinks they were deleted inappropriately. I noticed that most of Mosquera's uploads were violations of WP:NFCC #1, and I tagged them as such. He's not happy, and he's accusing me of abusing my administrator privileges. Any comments? I'm going to bed. Maybe some one else could step in. – Quadell (talk) (random) 04:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Update: He has now removed the rfu tags I placed on the images he uploaded. – Quadell (talk) (random) 04:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

He's wikistalking me, pure and simple. I posted lengthy rationales like this one. I believe these are the most detailed ones ever posted here, as I tried to prevent just this sort of problem.

This is not a case of good faith disputes. He is retaliating at me for saying that he violated policy. The existence of fair use images is no excuse to harass and attack contributors who act in good faith. ''Policy does not call for autodelete of a "portrait of a living person." Period.''

This admin refused to discuss these issues, apparently because I know that the English-language Wikipedia permits such fair use of copyrighted images within certain guidelines, including pictures of people who still function. As is par for the course, he cites his own opinion as consensus, then tries to attack every possible contribution for disagreeing with him.

Part of my lengthy rationale is this text:
 * 1) The contributing editor uploaded this content in a good-faith effort to comply with policy and further the goals of the English-language Wikipedia, recognizing that a non-free image can only be used in an article under strict circumstances.  Once these basic requirements are met, the burden of proof is on those who dispute the validity of the content.  If the use is a valid fair use and the rationale is a valid rationale, disputing the image is destructive and uncivil.
 * 2) The contributing editor understands that image-tagging rules are necessarily complex, are sometimes subject to varying interpretation (which reasonable people can disagree about), and play an important role in safeguarding the project and avoiding ethical issues and potential legal exposure.
 * 3) The contributing editor uploaded this content as an important, irreplaceable visual representation of a subject that contributes significantly to at least one article. There is no legitimate question that the image is perfectly appropriate.

At minimum, Quadell must respect that image-tagging rules are necessarily complex, are sometimes subject to varying interpretation, and that honest people may differ. I do not wish to be the victim of about some bizarre campaign against individual users. I acted in good faith and ask to be treated as such.

Mosquera 04:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * May I disagree with you on your first point. It is often when an image may not be valid that it is subject to dispute. And the requirements of keeping a nonfree image are much more stringent than uploading them in good faith; they must also actually comply with the appropriate policies itself. Calling such discussions regarding validity of images "destructive and incivil" is an assumption of bad faith in itself. — Kurykh  04:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Like I said: If the use is a valid fair use and the rationale is a valid rationale, then disputing the image is destructive and uncivil. In an attempt to prevent this exact problem, I drafted the the most detailed rationale possible]]. My posting a "portrait of a living person" is not an a priori justification for abusing administrative privileges to make a WP:POINT. Mosquera 05:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I've never seen a rationale prepared with more detail or care. It's not clear the content of the rationale was even read, let alone considered or addressed, and User:Quadell did not even take the time to post to the uploader's talk page. This is very poor editing practice, and I agree with User:Mosquera in that s/he does appear, now, to be being wiki-stalked. Considering the detail in the rationale, I would like to point out that the above editing practices have demonstrably driven away numerous formerly productive, knowledgeable contributors and must not continue. Badagnani 05:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * To be fair, he did post a template to my talk page, but I cleared it off. I assumed he would see that I was dead serious with my rationale and try to touch base with me personally before deleting.  I know this is a hot button issue, so I lay my cards on the table from the start.  Today he bombed me with templates, which I see as retaliation.  Mosquera 05:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I see no such template from this editor on your talk page history fitting the date range in question. Badagnani 05:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The template is right [ here], and the time between "templating" and deletion is longer than 48 hours, which is the requisite time for deletion per WP:CSD. --Iamunknown 05:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You could write a 5 word rationale or a 5000 word rationale, but pictures of living people are still generally considered replaceable on Wikipedia (See #3 at and #8 on []. Having said that, I don't think I can pass judgment on this particular photo since I have not seen it and don't know how it was used. Still, it seems you've reacted too aggressively to the deletion. Isn't this just a simple matter of asking for deletion review?  nadav (talk) 05:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That's not the question. I see no evidence the rationale was even read or addressed. Whether you claim review is the best option now is immaterial; the behavior of the deleting editor was clearly improper; s/he prefers to simply go ahead and delete rather than address the rationale's points. As I stated earlier, this sort of thing, in addition to the wiki-stalking (which is very bad) does drive away productive, knowledgeable editors. Badagnani 05:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Nadav, I think the image was from  (combine the two; sorry, it was too long).  I could be wrong about the image.  Could Mosquera or Quadell clarify?  --Iamunknown 05:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * (e/c) I've taken a look at the images about which Quadell posted notices on Mosquera's talkpage. (I agree it would have been more polite to post one custom-written message instead of all the templates, but editors upholding image policy deal with so many backlogs that I don't think he can be faulted too much) Almost all of them seem to fall rather blatantly outside the standard interpretation of the nonreplaceability criterion. None of the tremendously long-winded rationales satisfactorily explain why there are outstandingly exceptional circumstances that would permit the non-free portraits of living persons. Regarding the "wikistalking," I believe arbcom has declared that editors may use logs to check if a user has repeated a similar error elsewhere. Quadell was right to check if this non-standard interpretation of the nonreplaceability criterion was employed on other images. nadav (talk) 06:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

If these images are replaceable, then I invite you to go find me a replacement. Those images areproperly used under current Wikipedia policies and guidelines. If "free", "freely licensed" or "libre" images ever become available, they may be uploaded as replacements. Such an event is highly unlikely in the next twenty years, even if it were somehow in theory possible, given the intellectual property issues involved.


 * 1) The English-language Wikipedia is the most widely used, most comprehensive, and possibly the most important reference work available. If it degrades the quality of the articles for a perceived lowest common denominator of potential re-use, then it will make itself less relevant and could eventually fail on this issue.
 * 2) Creation of "free", "freely licensed" or "libre" content does not have a higher priority than the creation of encyclopedic content.  Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a social movement to create "free", "freely licensed" or "libre" content.  A reference work that refuses to use a professionally distributed image meant specifically to identify a subject faces serious credibility issues.
 * 3) Editors cannot be expected to do original work for the English-language Wikipedia, as stated in the five pillars. They cannot be expected to do the original work of creating an entirely new, "free", "freely licensed" or "libre" replacement image. Nor should they be expected to convince rights holders to donate their intellectual property.  Further, non-lawyers should not be forced to write ad hoc rationales and legal justifications for fair use on a case by case basis.  The law does not require fair use rationales.  Mosquera 07:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * These are all open-and-shut cases of replaceable non-free images of living people, and no amount of wikilawyering will change that. Plus, the sourcing is poor; I tried to check on a few of them and not in a single case could I verify that they were indeed "promotional" as the uploader claimed. By the way, have a look at the articles in which they are used: mostly stubs. If the uploder had invested ten percent of the time and energy he wasted in defending the images to instead improve the articles, we'd be better off now. Or ten percent of the time and energy to instead write to the people in question and ask them for a free release. -- Anyway, I hereby state my intention to delete these images shortly. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The emperor has no clothes Nothing in policy says that fair use images of living people are automatically to be deleted. The images come from places like NBC and Fox, who aren't going to donate content.  Be serious. Mosquera 07:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * (e/c) Point 3 goes completely against everything I know about Wikipedia ("The Free Encyclopedia") and especially WP:NONFREE and WP:FURG. I am also surprised and disappointed that you have now reverted the re-tagging of the images as replaceable by Abu badali, and I have re-added the tags myself. Please follow the instructions on the tag if you disagree with the claim of replaceability. But remember that policy holds that portraits of living people are replaceable in almost all cases. (See #3 at and #8 on WP:NONFREE) nadav (talk) 07:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Those tags do not reflect a good faith dispute. They represent wikistalking.  By replacing the tags, you are stalking too.  You would not know of the tags had one admin not decided to attack me for following policy on fair use.  Let it be.   Mosquera 07:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * So by following up a WP:ANI post I become a wikistalker? It is uncivil to call everyone who disagrees with you names. nadav (talk) 07:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Mosquera, these tags do reflect a good faith dispute. Editors, who are concerned about the inappropriate use of non-free content on a free encyclopedia, have identified this and challenged the assertion that these images should be used.  They are acting within the established processes and, as such, are acting in good faith.  Any assertion that they are not acting in good faith is contrary to the guideline assume good faith and the fourth pillar.  --Iamunknown 08:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The original admin already showed bad faith by refusing to discuss the issue, then retaliating by slapping a bunch of dispute tags on any image he could find bearing a human face. This is not the established process. By repeating the tags, you implicitly endorse the stalking campaign. I call that uncivil. Mosquera 08:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * What is important is how to go forward from this point on. There is no stalking campaign, there are simply editors tagging images that they believe are replaceable non-free images as required by policy. That is not uncivil. Have you read Non-free_content? How did you wish editors to contest the fair-use of those images without using tags? Sancho 08:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It is established process to tag non-free images one thinks do not meet the criteria for inclusion. Unfortunately, Quadell aggravated the situation by putting many templates on your user talk page, as opposed to putting one long custom message.  No one is perfect; he has the opportunity to adjust his practices in the future.
 * Looking through someone's contribution logs for allegedly inappropriately tagged images is not wikistalking; that is why we have contribution logs. Otherwise they would be hidden from editors and administrators alike.  Quadell has not engaged in wikistalking.  No one here has engaged in wikistalking.  --Iamunknown 08:12, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Canvassing
The recent canvassing on the part of User:Quadell does not absolve his/her aforementioned actions.


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Andrew_c&diff=prev&oldid=143894205
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chowbok&diff=prev&oldid=143894270
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Videmus_Omnia&diff=prev&oldid=143894309 Badagnani 05:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Badagnani, have you read Canvassing lately? How do you reconcile what the guideline actually says with your baseless accusations?  --Iamunknown 05:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The mention of deletion without addressing the rationale, and wiki-stalking are right there in the history; no accusations are necessary. The canvassing is similarly right there in the edit history. Badagnani 05:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Badagnani, leaving relatively-neutral messages to three people is not canvassing. Seriously.  Re-read Canvassing.  "An arbitrator clarified the position: "Briefly, I think a reasonable amount of communication about issues is fine. Aggressive propaganda campaigns are not....""  Was this an aggressive propaganda campaign?  No.  Was it reasonable communication?  Yes.  Not canvassing.  --Iamunknown 05:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Any rational person can guess what he is up to. He is looking for people to back him up, since he is unwilling to rationally discuss this issue on his own.  He is trying to retaliate because I showed that he acted against policy.  I ask that he not carry this wikistalking campaign against me to other users. I further ask that he apologize immediately and try to undo his destructive actions. I realize that policy ordinarily does not apply to administrators, but in this case I insist.  Mosquera 07:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, I consider myself "rational", and I completely reject your thesis. Quadell isn't looking for people to back him up, he brought this to ANI for review by uninvolved administrators and editors.  And thus far the review has been unanimously in his favour and against the use of the images you uploaded.  He is not retaliating, he is actively seeking out images that seriously violate policy, as has been described to you multiple times.  His actions are not destructive, they are constructive attempts at maintaining a free encyclopedia.  --Iamunknown 07:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but wasn't User:Chowbok (one of the editors canvassed) involved at one time in a massive campaign of Wikistalking against numerous users, some of which actually left the project as a result? Maybe it's just a coincidence, but I do see a lot of justification of Wikistalking in these pages in recent weeks. Badagnani 07:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * To answer your question: No, not that I am aware of, and no, Chowbok was not canvassed (see my previous posts). --Iamunknown 07:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Repeated tag reverts by Mosquera
Mosquera has now decided to systematically revert placement of the tags on his images (See contrib history ), even though they were re-added in good faith by both me and Abu badali. This refusal to follow the usual processes is tendentious, and, in my opinion, warrants sanction. nadav (talk) 07:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikistalking
The refusal to cease wikistalking as regards tagging image uploads is also tendentious, and, in my opinion, warrants sanction. We've seen it previously with Chowbok and Abu Badali and the consensus was that that practice is disruptive and wrong, and drives away editors. Badagnani 08:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * So now every editor who reads this post, looks at the images, and agrees they are replaceable is "wikistalking"? Please stop throwing out this epithet and address (on the image talk pages or at WP:FUR) the issue of whether the images are replaceable or not. nadav (talk) 08:19, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * No one is wikistalking. Looking through an editor's contribution logs to identify what one thinks might be errors is not wikistalking; it is established practice and, when the editor in question is properly notified and the proper process is gone through, established process.  --Iamunknown 08:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

A few brief comments
Good morning. In regards to Badagnani's claim that "it isn't clear that I even read the rationale", I'm not sure what would make it clear -- I didn't videotape myself reading it. I read the rationale, disagreed, commented on it in the image talk page, and deleted the image. Since the deletion debate had been open to discussion for 48 hours and the uploader had already commented at length, I saw no need to leave an additional message on the uploader's talk page. (I always leave a message when I tag images, without exception, though.) Regarding the wikistalking accusation, I have tagged hundreds of images with rfu over the past few days. Sometimes I looked through a particular category with lots of image violations (e.g. "Heavy metal bands"), sometimes I looked through a licensing type (e.g. Publicity photographs) looking for obvious violations, and sometimes I look through the contributions of an uploader who obviously doesn't understand our policy and has uploaded other images that are clearly against policy. That's not stalking. I'd like to point out, too, that there are many other images the Mosquera uploader which are almost certainly against policy to use here (e.g.) -- I didn't nominate those for deletion because I was only looking for RFUs, not trying to tag all a particular editor's images. Regarding the multiple notes on Mosqera's talk page, I use a tool that adds such messages, and when I had tagged all messages (not two minutes after I had tagged the first one), I went to consolidate all the messages into one in order to not leave so many templates on a user's talk page. But he had already deleted them all. Thanks, – Quadell (talk) (random) 11:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * What User:Nadav1 said above is entirely accurate . We simply do not permit the use of fair use imagery for the purpose of depiction of a living person. Such imagery is replaceable. We do not wait until it is replaced. We delete. We do not consider whether a fair use rationale is detailed or not. We consider if the image is being used for depiction purposes only. If so, it is deleted. There's no grey area on this issue. It's been decided by the Wikimedia Foundation and is echoed in policy and practice.
 * I have now removed a dozen of these images from articles (example) by reviewing the image contributions of User:Mosquera . Anyone who considers this sort of action as "stalking" should read and understand Harassment, especially where it says "This does not include checking up on an editor to fix errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, nor does it mean reading a user's contribution log; those logs are public for good reason. Using the edit history of users to correct related problems on multiple articles is part of the recommended practices" Those editors who have worked to correct User:Mosquera's errors should be commended, and not accused of stalking unless evidence comes forth of harassing behavior. To date, none has been presented.
 * If User:Mosquera is not willing to abide by our policies and Wikimedia Foundation resolutions, and continues to act against same despite multiple warnings, then a block is indeed in order. --Durin 14:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to take the opportunity to endorse what Durin's saying here. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 16:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't want to repeat too much of what has already been said, and I don't know how much my opinion will count because I was "canvassed" :), but I agree with most of what is said above. What shocks me is this statement by Mosquera: The images come from places like NBC and Fox, who aren't going to donate content. And that is ironically hitting the nail on the head. The reason why we cannot use this non-free content is because WP:FUC #2. Just because a company takes a picture and wants to protect their copyright and profit from their property doesn't give us a right to steal their hard work, upload it here, and distribute it for free. Even if you wrote a 10 page boiler plate rationale, in good faith, doesn't excuse stealing another's livelihood just because you want some stub articles to look pretty with decorative images. We still have option: either go out and photographing the individuals in question, searching flickr or other websources for free replacements, or even contact the individual in question and asking for a GFDL image donation. And if someone doesn't want to make a donation, that doesn't give us an excuse to steal their livelihood and distribute it for free. This is exactly why nearly all images of living people are unacceptable here on wikipedia. And a boilerplate, good faith rationale, that isn't individually catered to each individual image just isn't going to cut it. Finally, if multiple, uninvolved editors agree with tagging these images, there is no reason for Mosquera to remove the tags. There is a specific process for disputing tags, and continuously removing the tags after multiple admin review is not good faith editing.-Andrew c [talk] 16:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Mosquera's believes that "El Patrón" (the Spanish Cabal?) is out to suppress him . He doesn't see this as a policy issue, apparently, but as fighting the good fight against the repressive admins. nadav (talk) 16:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, it's not by any means the first nor the last accusation of cabalistic behavior by administrators. I hope he learns from the above comments, and I've directed him here. --Durin 16:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Harassment by John254
In response to a single edit I made restoring some of the content he deleted from an article, John254 has made repeated threats that I would be blocked, both in the edit history of the page as well as on my userpage. He then called for the speedy deletion of a page in my userspace (User:User At Work/Pols under investigation) which I use to keep track of my work (my interest is corrupt politicians and political scandals), raised this to the level of an ANI, and has since accused me of "abusive sockpuppetry" to merit a checkuser investigation; the claim of abusive sockpuppetry is entirely without merit -- User At Work is an account I (The Cunctator) use, and I have always been assiduous about avoiding intersecting the two accounts (except for the ANI conversation when I responded logged in to the wrong account). The entire time I have tried very hard to be respectful of John254's motives, for example responding to the comments he left at Talk:Grover Norquist and editing the page to address what I believed were the concerns he was expressing.

John254 seems to be entirely unable to admit that his judgment of what is acceptable content for Wikipedia may be imperfect -- in particular, his invocation of BLP to justify the removal of well-sourced, accurate but controversial or critical information about a famous person who deliberately seeks controversy is in my judgment incorrect. But I would have happy to work with him to improve the tone, style, and balance of the Grover Norquist page. Unfortunately I can no longer trust that he would operate in good faith.

I respectfully request John254 to retract the claim of abusive sockpuppetry and I hope he will not be so quick to threaten people who question his edits with blocking. --User At Work 04:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The best way to avoid such problems is to add to the UAW account. --  FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  05:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How does that help avoiding being harassed and attacked by another user? --User At Work 05:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * At least it could have saved us some time instead of going through a CU and accusations of sockpuppetry. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  05:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The person who is spending the time making the accusations of abusive sockpuppetry and asking for the CU is John254. I've been trying to de-escalate the situation each time he launches a new attack.--User At Work 06:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll be keeping an eye. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  07:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think John254's concern is, to a certain extent, legitimate. See the thread above.  I'm not sure how to proceed, though. Thatcher131 13:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Then a block is warranted. I haven't paid attention to the update by John254. However, due to the specificity of this issue i believe a RfA could decide it. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  13:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I took your suggestion on adding the notice. I'm disappointed that you have decided not to consider John254's behavior in this matter.--User At Work 14:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I follow updates and i am still having an eye on him of course. Filing an ArbCom case is not all the time a negative thing. The ArbCom can rule out the case of decide if you or him deserve something. This is a very specific situation and admins cannot do things that only ArbCom can deal w/. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  16:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

He is now accusing me of using this account as a "bad hand" account, commiting "blatant violation of WP:BLP", "severe WP:BLP violation". If he is correct, then of course it is not harassment. If he is not, then, I submit he is in blatant violation of WP:CIVILITY. --User At Work 14:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, John does have a pattern of overreacting, as indicated in the Dmcdevit and Cunctator issues. I have so far been unable to make him understand that no, Wikipedia really is not a bureaucracy. Perhaps someone else will have better luck?  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  13:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * (This is The Cunctator issue) Thatcher131 13:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * With respect, you are an administrator, you need to accept that you will be held to a higher standard than people you argue against. That comes with the mop. Also notice that -- if you want to keep the mop -- that you are in a hole, and it is advised that you stop digging. Thank you for adding User Alternate Acct. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Erm, one digs with a shovel, not a mop. Your judgment of whether or not I am in a hole may be incorrect. Please avoid using the passive voice when admonishing me. I continue to submit that John254 is in violation of WP:CIVILITY.--The Cunctator 16:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, John254 has gone overboard in his pursuit of you. However, I think that his initial concerns are at least partly justified. Now that this is being dealt with by several other admins, let's hope that John254 moves on to something else.  He should not continue an independent pursuit. Thatcher131 17:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

How do we do a spam block again?
I think someone is in the testing stages of a bot spam attack. There used to be a spammer constantly adding links to serialkillercalendar.com -- which was just a calendar for sale featuring artwork of killer. Today links to PainandPaintings.com showed up on Ed Gein and some other articles about killers, which has the exact same art work, site design, etc. as the serialkillercalendar.com, including a link at the bottom to go to the other site to pruchase the calendar... so exact same purpose, exact same spam. When I removed it the anon IP address who had added it created an account to repost it and to yell at me with threats to "have you blocked for senselessly deleting links". So I removed it again... and another editor got it on the new add at Charles Manson.

But I just went to Ed Gein and see about five different accounts adding the link -- some anon IPs, some registered accounts, and sometimes in External Links, sometimes in References and sometimes at the top of the page as if it were a disambiguation link! And I think it's a bot because at one point in a manner of not too many minutes the page had accumulated some six or more links to the same site.

I've never gone about getting a site blocked or trying to track various IPs and stuff as sockpuppets like this, but it looks like it needs to get done. Plus I have to get to sleep here soon and can;t follow up on this. Can someone else take over on this please? DreamGuy 07:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The following accounts/IPs all added the link just to Ed Gein in about an hour and a half (which means I've been editing here way longer than I should be tonight anwyay):


 * User:72.73.109.20 </BR>
 * User:Killercalendar </BR>
 * User:68.194.48.146 </BR>
 * User:24.193.216.136 </BR>
 * User:24.7.91.60 </BR>
 * User:Killerguitargod </BR>
 * User:71.111.117.212 </BR>
 * User:203.134.15.157 </BR>
 * User:72.189.105.125 </BR>
 * User:Mo daget


 * And I think I spotted at least one other IP adding the same link to another article about a killer, but I didn't check it against the main list to know if it was a repeat... and I don't have more than a handful of such articles on my watchlist, so it may be spreading across a bunch of others at this very moment. DreamGuy 08:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * No it's not. you can check by doing a search at special:linksearch. If the spamming gets bad it can be added to the spam_blacklist on meta. But I don't think it's necessary at the moment. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 08:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That's handy to know about. There are some other frequently spammed sites I look for periodically, and that'll be useful.


 * By the way, the person who did this claims on my talk page that it was the result of posting a note on MySpace calling for people to come here and add the link. We could be in for more of this later. DreamGuy 08:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Account to be blocked
As per this checkuser is a confirmed open proxy SPA and likely JB196 puppet that needs blocking, anyone care to oblige? –– Lid(Talk) 09:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It's been done. MastCell Talk 16:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

A very particular debate at WP:SSP involving a presumably husband and wife
Well, this issue has been brought to the ANI a few days before. It can be found here. This is a situation where User:Tovojolo and his alleged wife User:Caprisa are being accused of sockpuppetry. The problem is that it is hard for both claiming parties to claim it is true or not. Personally, my first opinion about this matter is that i don't buy that they are married. I brought this issue here in order to get more feedback about this issue. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  10:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Just when I'd removed my own report. This is completely ridiculous. Is there a policy that states that Wikipedia is not clueless, or would this be trumped by WP:AGF? Besides remote proxies, there can be no better example of how CU cannot solve our sockpuppet problems, as here it is admitted that CU will give a match. We need responders who can tell two people from one by contributions alone and are willing to act on this judgment.Proabivouac 10:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I've done enough researches about vandals/trolls/socks/disrupters today and i am feeling tired of that. If you could provide some diffs showing that they are controversially editing the same articles than i can use my bat. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  10:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think it matters, really, whether they're married or the same person for our purposes. The practical difference between sockpuppets and meatpuppets is nil. There's evidence at the SSP report that the accounts have been used to reinforce each other, give the impression of greater support, double-vote, etc. I propose indefinitely blocking Caprisa as a sock/meatpuppet, and applying a block of ~72 hours to Tovojolo. Any objections? MastCell Talk 15:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  15:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Done. MastCell Talk 16:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

As ANI does not seem to be done with this on-going conflict, see also
 * June 19, 2007 3RR UpDown – article protected; UpDown stated as viloating 3RR.
 * July 3, 2007 SSP – Tovojolo blocked; Sock indef. blocked
 * July 6, 2007 ANI – UpDown – Matter handled at Tovojolo's July 3, 2007 SSP
 * July 11, 2007 ANI - A very particular debate at WP:SSP involving a presumably husband and wife - Matter handled at Tovojolo's July 3, 2007 SSP
 * August 25, 2007 ANI Geraldine Newman – Material not in violation of copyright
 * - <font face="Kristen ITC"><font color="Blue">Jreferee  (Talk) 17:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Ghirlandajo pushing his political POV in inappropriate places
<div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color: #C7BEFA; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">
 * The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this page.

''Please don't bring personal grievances and sour grapes to this board. It won't achieve anything but annoy the community. I'm afraid, though, that the conflict in hand is bound to an ArbCom case, for too much bad faith, bad blood, personal attacks and stalking by all sides therein (it's not for me to judge the respective amounts)'' Duja ► 13:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Latest examplew was when that user continues trolling on AfD page which have no relevance to the current discussion in hand. He has been called to stop it several times but instead of this he continues. This behaviour is not only related to the article in hand, but also several other places. Suva 10:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, we don't know about other articles unless you help us providing some diffs. As for the AfD, i really do not see anything alarming. It is a debate and one has to expect some comments that would hurt although within Wikipedia policy. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  10:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, comments on the order of "Estonians are evil Nazis who must be hated" in context of an article on Anti-Estonian sentiment are certainly inappropriate, wouldn't you think?
 * The real story here, however, is not so much as POV-pushing, as WP:TROLLing. Ghirlandajo is making inflammatory remarks not because he wants his POV to be seen, but because he wants the AFD participants to be inflamed, in the hope that this would derail the discussion. Digwuren 11:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This is what he said exactly Yes, the Nazis are primarily responsible for the extermination of 99% Jews in Estonia.  Are you refering to that? If yes than where is the problem? Remember that the AfD is a debate and as i said above, in heated debates you would expect things you'd not like to hear. Obviously, in our case, i really do not see any problem with unless other editors or admins can prove me wrong. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  11:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I'm referring to the fact that he would make irrelevant accusations in the AFD. And, well, then, there are plain lies. Digwuren 11:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I've seen more than a thousand of similar ways of debating AfD's in Wikipedia and i don't remember someone was blocked because of that. Have you tried to approach him re the matter? I don't see any edit at his talkpage refering him to this thread! --  FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  11:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Once, there was a time when I actually tried to contact Ghirlandajo every once in a while. His reactions, such as, have convinced me that this is futile. Digwuren 12:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't care about the trolling of Digwuren and Co., either on this page or elsewhere,  but I'm concerned to see how low WP:ANI has degenerated. I'm surprized that the community still tolerates a bunch of meatpuppets, apparently based in the same dorm, who have turned one of the most quiet segments of Wikipedia into a never-ending battleground, without bothering to contribute a single meaningful sentence to the project. "Don't feed the trolls" is still as valid a policy as ever, as is "Don't publicize the dispute where there is none". That their regular rants on this page are not summarily removed serves to encourage their disruption and effectively spawns new bouts of trolling, as the number of one-purpose accounts seems to be increasing steadily. Digwuren's activity is especially disruptive: each of his edits is either revert or trolling. If he had appeared a year or two ago, I'm sure he would have been banned within a month or two, but, given the current lack of interest in sanitizing Wikipedia, he is allowed to roam freely. This is my first and last reply to this. --Ghirla-трёп- 12:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait a sec. How are those diffs supposed to be trolling? Please explain. Suva 12:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Wanna bet no explanation will ever come? Digwuren 12:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It most definitely will not. However, Ghirla, once again, prove the meatpuppet accusation - or apologize. You expect your editcount to carry you through everything - but you still must follow Wikipedia rules. Which you have not done for a long, long time. Sander Säde  12:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Please calm down guys. If you are talking about that specific AfD then be sure that you are mistaken. If you are talking about his general behaviour which you think it is not acceptable than → WP:RfC and/or WP:RfA. Are you newbies? no. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  12:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * may I point out that this user has in the very recent past ended up on this very board already twice, here and here!
 * --Alexia Death 12:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If that is the case than why not try the links to RfC or RfA i gave you above? -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  12:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Have you ever put together RfC? I have, against another user with a bit less of rudeness and more of POV push. It got tossed out because apparently we had not made enough effort in making up with the user. Under constant accusations and in spite overabundant amount of diffs... So, Ive lost all faith in that procedure. As to arbitration. Hes been trough that one with another, and it is in suspension since February IIRC. And hes still around. --Alexia Death 12:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is not easy i suppose! But hundreds of other cases succeeded. I think it is about providing proofs. Here neither as we can't block someone relying on vague accusations. It is just like i can't block you just because he believes you are meatpuppeting (vague accusations). -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  12:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If it had been rejected because of lack of proof, it would be fine. It was not. There was so much proof that some commented it was TOO much. It was because we did not try hard enough to get along... Witch is VERY hard when every other word is an insult either directly or in a roundabout way.--Alexia Death 12:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * FayssalF, as an administrator, you can access deleted pages. Check out Requests for comment/Petri Krohn so you can see first-hand the amount of evidence, and make informed assessment. Digwuren 13:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Could you please stop commenting as everyone is repeating himself? Wait for another admin to help out. I said enough above. -- FayssalF  - <sup style="background:gold;">Wiki me up®  12:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's a non-repeating remark. Ghirlandajo has made unveiled accusations against me so many times, despite his standing ArbCom warning against incivility, and refused to back them up, that I'm recommending administrative action to deal with the continuous WP:CIV violation. Digwuren 13:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * the case I refered to is Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus-Ghirla. It was dismissed because Ghirla became inactive.--Alexia Death 13:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Digwuren, I repeat for the umpteenth time: I don't consider myself in dispute with you and I don't care about Estonia-related articles, in general. I have not seen you, much less talked with you, for several weeks, until I saw you and other Tartu accounts enflaming this page behind my back. I don't consider you or your friends an asset for Wikipedia, rather one of its greatest liabilities at the moment, and I challenge anyone to prove the contrary, as I have done many times before. --Ghirla-трёп- 13:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Please don't take content disputes and political quarrels to this board, Suva, Digwuren, and Alexia. Alexia, your remark that Ghirlandajo "has in the very recent past ended up on this very board already twice" defies all logic. "Ended up"? No, this isn't a place where people "end up". It's a place where anybody can post an attack on any user. Anybody who doesn't care what the board is for, that is. That Ghirlandajo has been attacked previously here isn't an indictment of him, but of the people who have no scruples about clogging up the administrators' noticeboards with irrelevancies. Have you read, any of you, the instructions at the top of the page? "This page is for reporting and discussing incidents that require the intervention of administrators... this is not the Wikipedia complaints department. If your problem concerns a content issue and does not need the attention of admins, please follow the steps in dispute resolution." So, what do you expect administrators to to about your collective beef with Ghirla? Block or warn him for trolling at that AfD?  (After they look at the way Digwuren behaves on the same AfD, yet? Come off it.)  Bishonen | talk 13:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC).
 * What's wrong with my behaviour there? Digwuren 13:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "Another form of trolling can occur in the form of continual questions with obvious or easy-to-find answers" (WP:TROLL). --Ghirla-трёп- 13:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * My comment about "ending up" was made without any hidden agenda, if it was out of place Im sorry, English is not my native language. To general public - Bishonen was the admin who rejected the RfC above so she has a little insight to the troubles of Ghrila. Making accusations and overall trolling is an incident, that IMHO needs admin attention. The rest is explanation as to WHY we feel it needs admin attention, because apparently nobody cares and all is well.--Alexia Death 13:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Dear, I was informed that you are in contact with a Ukrainian editor who advised you and your friends to follow the strategy pioneered by User:Piotrus and bring every petty grievance to this noticeboard, so as to inflate them into huge threads and to represent your opponents as inveterate troublemakers. This is an old trick, perhaps as old as the noticeboard itself, to slander a person without notifying him about the ongoing discussion. -Ghirla-трёп- 13:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I have NO clue who you are referring to...--Alexia Death 13:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this page.

I find Ghirla's remarks about my person (and about others), very incivil and I do hope the readers of this noticeboard will not stand for continuing accusations that certain users are trolling or spamming this board with petty grievances. Considering how often Ghirla's actions are brought here, and by how many various editors, we are far and long past any coincidences. FI do agree that this board is not a substitute for complex DR such as incidents involving Ghirla; steps of DR should be taken instead of discussions here; for the record, at least one ArbCom in which Ghirla is a party, has presented evidence and had evidence presented about him is still active.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 13:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Your forum-shopping activities on this very page are still under scrutiny on Requests for arbitration/Piotrus/Workshop. --Ghirla-трёп- 14:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Your mutual grievances are an old story. Like I said, I won't be a judge (although I do have my opinion). The best course of action for both of you is to disengage from each other. Please. Continued grievance on this board won't persuade anyone who is familiar the situation to change any opinion he might have formed so far; rather, they just show both of you in the worst light. Your mentioning of Piotrus on an unrelated problem was less than helpful. Piotrus's reply was even less helpful. How about each of you writing a DYK article? Helps relieve the stress. Duja ► 14:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Requesting opinions on constant deletion of image from pages
The following image Image:Nbodybuilder.jpg has been constantly deleted from pages it has been placed on, mostly by anonymous editors who leave no summary or label the image as "vandalism". The image is a quality image of a bodybuilder who released the rights of the image to me which I uploaded to Commons. The consensus to place the images on thepages it has been placed on has been discussed on all of the talk pages it's on. Therefore I ask this, Would simply erasing the image without a summary despite the consensus on the talk page be considered vandalism? Especially after the person has been asked to discuss their changes on the talk page and refuses to do so? I don't want to violate 3rr by re-adding the image over and over on a page without being sure. Thanks.  Wikidudeman  (talk) 12:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It depends. Repeatedly deleting the image from a page where there is consensus to use it could be vandalism, yes. To avoid 3RR problems, it's better to let another user (like me, for instance) know what's going on, and let someone else re-add the image if it's called for. If you let us know what page it's being removed from, that will help. All the best, – Quadell (talk) (random) 12:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * That would be great if you could take a look at the situation and determine if removing the image over and over constitutes vandalism. The image is placed on the following pages.


 * Human abdomen
 * Bodybuilding
 * Muscle
 * Muscular system
 * Physical exercise
 * Masculinity
 * Skeletal muscle
 * Muscle tone
 * Somatotype
 * General fitness training
 * Muscle hypertrophy


 * You could add them to your watchlist, I think all of them have talk pages where the image placement has been discussed and either a consensus exists for the image or all except the one who removed it supports it's being there, which sometimes just includes 2-3 others which may or may not constitute a "consensus". Most of the objections to the image are blatantly absurd, for instance in the Masculinity talk page, the image of the bodybuilder was called "Small and girly" in an attempt to get it taken down.  Wikidudeman  (talk) 12:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * An Anon IP has removed the image from Masculinity again. Same IP as last time and still no summaries. See the talk page of the article. Wikidudeman  (talk) 14:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I just blocked a couple of editors for WP:3RR over this image at Bodybuilding a few days ago. Anon removal with no summary can be reverted as vandalism (and if the same IPs are making a habit of this I'd say take it to WP:AIV so blocking can be explored), but as I said when I blocked the editors in question, if there is a dispute about using this image in any of those articles it should be discussed on the talk page.--Isotope23 14:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It should be pointed out too that there has been some "discussion" of this at Masculinity by the anon, though not especially useful or civil discussion.--Isotope23 14:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * He seems to be a troll from my determination. I tried explaining the situation clearly and calmly but I was told to "Get a life" and that I "Should be banned". Do you think I should revert this persons edits as vandalism? Perhaps you could revert them for me so I don't get close to violating 3rr.  Wikidudeman  (talk) 14:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * He's been warned. If it continues, hit my talkpage with diffs and I'll deal with the situation.  On a side note, looking at that articles it appears that the image is warranted in most of the articles (especially the one or two that didn't previously have images), but I can see at least one article where it seems redundant.--Isotope23 15:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Messed archives
Not sure which Administrator help page go to. I've messed up trying to move my archive talk pages. I tried to match the history with that archived pages. I realised things weren't right and I tried correct things back. I tried to #redirect them, but ended up worse. I've stopped any #redirects now, but can't sort it out. The pages involved are: Hopefully you can sort things out. I've saved any posts and sandbox records, so if neccessary they can be deleted. The only page I know is fine is my main User:Cwb61 page. Really sorry for all this. Cwb61 (talk)  13:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * User talk:Cwb61/Archive
 * User Cwb61/Archive
 * User talk:Cwb61/Archive1
 * User Cwb61/Archive1
 * Talk:User Cwb61/Archive (don't know what I was thinking with that one)
 * User talk:Cwb61 which doesn't now have the original history
 * even User:Cwb61/sandbox1 which I didn't realise at first.


 * Okay, finally found where the history of your talk page is - it's at User Cwb61/Archive. I'll fix it now, hold on.  Neil   ╦  14:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Your talk page archive is now at User talk:Cwb61/Archive1. The history has been dredged up and moved back to User talk:Cwb61, where it probably should be.  As all talk page edits are signed and dated (or should be), you don't need to worry about the history going with the archive to retain the appropriate GFDL attributions.  Neil   ╦  15:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much for sorting things out. Cwb61 (talk)  15:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Thedec
recently made the folowing edit to my talk page. As can be seen from the usercheck links, he was previously investigated (at my instigation) for sockpuppeting following earlier vandalism and inappropriate comments on my talkpage. At that time he claimed that the sockpuppeting had a come about as the result of a schoolmate coming into possession of his password, but that he had now changed the password and his main account was secure again. I, and the admin who reviewed the sockpuppet case, took this at face value and his account was not blocked (for the sockpuppeting). It now appears that either the account has been compromised again, or he was lying in the first instance. The account seems to have made few useful contributions, but there is a fair amount of vandalism and inane comments on talkpages. He doesn't seem to be here to improve the encyclopaedia. David Underdown 15:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Either he was lying the first time around, or his account is unforgivably insecure and prone to being hacked. My money's on the former, but either way it's time for an indefinite block, which I've applied. MastCell Talk 15:40, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, good faith only stretches so far... David Underdown 15:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

ED trolling
tag added by HappyFarmerofAsparagus 20:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC) Please extend the block on per finding of fact 16) and enforcement 1) of Requests_for_arbitration/MONGO - Specifically, vandalising my about page with a very offensive cutpaste of ED's article on me. Will (talk) (Originally posted 20:57, 7 July 2007 (UTC)) 11:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That edit was a couple of days ago and there has been no further edits from that IP, which, correct me if I am wrong, is a dynamic IP address. <font color="#FFFFFF" face="Arial Bold"> Jody B talk 12:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Correction, it's been blocked. But I still think its a dynamic IP address so extending the block will not accomplish much. <font color="#FFFFFF" face="Arial Bold"> Jody B talk 12:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * While that vandalism is certainly childish and offensive, I don't see how ED and enforcement of the ArbCom case are involved; the phrase appears nowhere on ED according to Google. This appears to be just a run-of-the-mill cheesed-off vandal.  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  20:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Edit was oversighted on my request due to it containing personal information. Anyone with access to oversight-l can confirm this. Will (talk) 21:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No one has to tolerate that kind of harassment...sorry Will.--MONGO 21:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah, OK. My bad.  Ƙ ɽ  ɨ  ɱ  ρ  ᶓ  ȶ  22:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thankfully, it was only my last name (which, though I did divulge at one point, would rather not plaster on my page), but still, my ED article is sickening to put it politely. Will (talk) 00:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It looks like your "friend" Geoffrey Mitchell is the one responsible for that Sceptre, or maybe Sixty Six, but I feel more confident about the former. --MichaelLinnear 20:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not blaming either Geoffrey or Sixty Six for the vandalism to the page (AFAIK, neither lives in Canada), but the ED vandal does have an overt obsession with myself and Matthew. Will (talk) 14:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No I meant the attack article the ED account "Die clown die" and Geoffrey Mitchell are the only two users I have ever seen refer to Wikipedians as "Wikians." It seems to be an unusual trait. --MichaelLinnear 00:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Weirdness
added by HappyFarmerofAsparagus 20:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC) Could someone check out and ? The first appears to be impersonating, and IMHO there's something seriously weird going on with the latter (ICanDoItNineTimes)... Attacks? Puppetry? I could use a hand figuring things out here :) Fvasconcellos (t·c) 19:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: Anyone else get a chuckle out of the fact that has a picture of a sockpuppet, and says that's them?  Dan 20:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed the personal attacks on user:ICanDoItNineTimes' user page. (non-admin) Flyguy649 talk contribs 20:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)