Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive295

Removed section
(JzG’s response on a removed section)

Sounds like we deleted some self-promotion and maybe blacklisted a link that was being spammed. We've had this before at the spam blacklist and on OTRS, where people assert that not allowing them to advertise or link on Wikipedia is harming their business. The consensus view is that they can think again, since there is no expressed or implied right to use the resources of the Wikimedia Foundation to promote your business, organisation or other interest. However, there may be some courtesy blanking required if the complainant can identify the places where he feels his organisation is being denigrated. Guy (Help!) 12:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * A courtesy blanking would be prudent. What's more disturbing is the readiness to dismiss that comment as trolling. Mr. Lundgren is obviously not aware of WP:NLT, but it seems rude to simply censor any communication without at least offering an explanation. If anyone from the concerned organization is reading this, please be aware that this is a specialized forum for non-editorial maintenance tasks. Users/admins will not engage in any legal dialog on this page. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 15:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This is the case of the now-blocked User who supposedly tried to start a legal case with User:Durin with the organization (blanked above), which caused Durin to leave Wikipedia. Questions arose as the standing of the above organization to even hear an in-Wikipedia case, and various Users' searches for the organization and its standing came up with nothing concrete. See .  Corvus cornix 16:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Corvus got it almost perfectly, groups that try and take legal action against a contributor are not welcome here, whatever they have to say. If they have issues they can take it up with the foundation, but the minute they start coming here, they get blocked and whatever they've added gets removed.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  23:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Request feedback
Similar to the perennial proposals for standardizing on either American or British English, or for standardizing on AD/BC or CE/BCE, there is now a proposal to mandate "gender-neutral" language in all of Wikipedia. Since debate is getting rather heated ("How dare people use sexist language" - "How dare people endorse grammatical errors" etc), it may help if some experienced users give their opinion, either at User talk:Tony1/Gender-neutral language (draft), or Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  14:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I panicked for a second before realising you meant "all of Wikipedia's articles". I can't believe singular "they" upsets so many people. Neil   ム  15:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Radiant, I know this issue has generated a conflict between you and Tony1, but with respect to the gender-neutrality proposal, it's best to separate that and present the issue as neutrally as possible. The manual of style is a guideline; it doesn't "mandate".  And unlike the issue, for example, of standardizing to British/American English, the practice of not substituting masculine pronouns where gender is indeterminate and another option can easily be used (as in the examples on Tony's draft) is standard in news and many other world organizations, and Wikipedia would only be catching up if we enacted this guideline.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 19:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm also wondering what is the administrative action required here, and why this is posted here. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 19:18, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I suspect that "...experienced users..." was the focus, all admins having a minimum of 5,000 10,000  15,0... many x lots edits when sysopped. LessHeard vanU 20:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Votec
This user is making few hundreds of changes in article Jasenovac concentration camp during last 3 days (so that in history of article is possible to see only his versions). First day I have revert his POV changes and on discussion page it has been writen my reasons for revert.

In his answers he has made personal attacks on me with words that I am holocaust denier (4 times), that only "sick-minded or genuine retards" persons do not understand importance of Stepinac words, screaming again that I am "GUARDIAN OF THE HOLOCAUST DENIAL" and playing with my user name (with his playing I am becoming little river). In the end I believe that here is enough information so that this user can be blocked for long time. Sorry for taking so much place on this page. --Rjecina 20:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Shorter version --Rjecina 00:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Help with Copy-vio notice
Hi, not sure if this is the right place to ask. The article South Crofty has been replaced with a notice about a suspected copy-vio for several weeks now since 21 August, and the notice says the article must not be edited until an admin has dealt with it. I have produced a version of the article on a temporary page (as instructed by the copy-vio notice) which I believe does not contain the suspect material, and have noted that on the article's talk page as per the instructions. How do I get an admin to look at the article to approve replacing it? Thanks in advance. DuncanHill 20:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The article is listed on Copyright problems. However, that page has a backlog. I deleted the copyvio and moved the temp article. Garion96 (talk) 21:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you :) DuncanHill 21:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Backlog
A backlog has formed on Category:Rescaled fairuse images more than 7 days old of more than 350+ images. Can administrators pop in and clear a little up before it gets bigger? — M o e   ε  21:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Edit war with an IP on Port scanner article
Unknown user under the IP 84.194.78.230 tries to promote a port scanner called "NetTools", which is probably his own production and is irrelevant for the WP. Additionally he tries to keep a big list of "Online Port Scanners", who can be found using every search engine like Google, if you type simply "Port scanner". In my opinion WP is not a link portal, therefore I always remove those advertisement links. There is an edit war between me and the IP. I would like to ask the administration for help to keep Wikipedia clean.--Gerold 21:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerold Hennig (talk • contribs)
 * Wow, for a new user, you certainly hit the ground running! In future, if you don't want people to comment on your contribs, try posting a link to a diff or an article so people have somewhere else to start looking. The history of Port scanner seems to consist mainly of edit warring over linkspam external links. Perhaps semi-protection? Sheffield Steel talkersstalkers 23:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Article semi-protected, those in conflict given cool down period to review WP:3RR. — Ocat ecir T 00:45, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

User:213.178.224.164
is another User:CoCoWaWa sockpuppet. Corvus cornix 22:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Blocked. -- John Reaves 22:15, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Joe Szwaja & Jean Godden - campaign manager BLP and outing war
Need admin help on these pages, ASAP:


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Joe_Szwaja#Mikesmash_is_Hiding_Campaign_Connection_and_is_Vandalizing
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jean_Godden#Information_on_endorsements

On these pages, editors Mikesmash, Landsfarthereast, and a Peruvian editor who hops IPs in the 201.0.0.0 range are harassing each other and attempting to out each other. Mikesmash had posted evidence that Landsfarthereast was Godden's campaign manager, and now the Peruvian and Landsfarthereast are trying to out Mikesmash as her opponent's campaign manager. Add in gems such as this by User:Landsfarthereast:


 * ''because he is a woman beater, mike, and that hits close to home. maybe shattering a place in a woman's face is no big deal to you, but it disgusts me. so much for you being a progressive. i guess you're only a progressive when it's convenient. when it comes to calling out domestic violence, you're nothing but an apologist.


 * i've known a number of good friends whose lives have been tremendously affected by dv, and it is not something to gloss over. his son, who was 7 at the time of this incident, will live with this for the the rest of his life. shame on you for diminishing its importance. it is also something that TOTALLY DISQUALIFIES anyone from ever holding public office.

It sounds like they may well be the campaign managers, I do not know. I found the Peru IP hyper-aggressively doing blankings on the Joe Szwaja article, and RV'd once, which then led all these people to move their fist fight onto my talk page. There are accusations of libel as well scattered about, so they're into legal threats now. Help. I tried the other day to calm things slightly be rewriting one of the pages in a sourced neutral tone, which worked until they all just started up again today. • Lawrence Cohen  22:14, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Those comments should be removed as BLP violations. Corvus cornix 22:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer others/admins to do this and watchlist the pages. I'd rather detach from this mess completely, that's why I posted here. Thanks. • Lawrence Cohen  22:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and the Peruvian IP user has now become User:Bevinbell‎. I notified each of them about this post. • Lawrence Cohen  22:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Akhilleus and I have been involved in this issue (as admins, not as editors). See 1, 2, 3 Raymond Arritt 22:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I am not the Szwaja campaign manager. I provided evidance that Landsfarthereast is Carlo Davis, the Godden campaign manager, through his blog, listing Davis' AIM name as "Landsfarthereast". Too much of a coincidence for me. I called the Szwaja campaign. His campaign manager's name is Young Han. Not me. Mikesmash 22:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Crazy moves/redirects
Just looked at the contribs for, and there are many, many inappropriate redirects and moves. It is obviously vandalism (moving user pages to the pages of nonexistent users, creating Turkish wet dream of Europe that redirects to Panturkism, etc). Can somebody please block and undo all of the malicious actions? Thanks, The Behnam 00:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, the user in question also admitted to being a sock of a banned user . That's enough for a block as it is.  The Behnam 00:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we fixed everything.--Chaser - T 03:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Why, why, why , would you allow an idiot like me - to have access to edit ???????????? I'm sorry to all . It will not happen again (by me).
I haven't been to this site for awhile and I came on today and looked up info, on Dave evans (AC/DC's first lead singer) saw the word "edit". And like a stupid little kid, kind of shocked - a little excited (I just turned 40 !!!!!!!!!!!!), I started changing stuff and deleting it , all the time thinking something is wrong on the site !!!! Why is it letting me do this ? Then I went back to try to fix it, and I couldn't. Now I don't know what to do. How can I replace the stuff that I deleted ? I feel terrible that someone took the time to put up the info - and I deleted it without knowing, what I was doing !!! Why does Wikipedia allow this ? I don't think it should be this way. Everyone should have to sign up and read the terms - before they can change other peoples hard work. Can you help me fix it ? Or should I let it go ? Thanks for your time, Shannon —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kmjdjm (talk • contribs) 00:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is a wiki. Damage can be repaired easily with just a few clicks if you know how.  Don't worry about mistakes.  Welcome. :) –Gunslinger47 00:48, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You may wish to read the introduction, if you would like to edit. Prodego  talk  00:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Um guys...you are being trolled. That was that editor's first edit. The history of Dave Evans shows no edits at all since August 27th. IrishGuy talk 00:51, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Assume good faith, perhaps they made their edits anonymously then signed up to find out where to ask for help. Welcome. (( 1 == 2 ) ? ((' Stop ') : ('Go ')) 00:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The editor clearly states: I came on today. There are no edits to that article for this month, let alone today. IrishGuy talk 00:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, come on. The last blanking edit to that article was like six weeks ago (July 16).  Troll, troll, troll.  —Wknight94 (talk) 00:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe he didn't hit "save". --Masamage ♫ 00:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well I don't see the point in this type of apologetic trolling if it is indeed meant to disrupt. Even if it is a troll, there is no need to bite the bait and assume it is anything other than a sincere user. (( 1 == 2 ) ? ((' Stop ') : ('Go ')) 00:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It is possible the edit was not saved, a different page was edited, the list goes on and on. Best to assume that this is a real request, right? What is the point of leaving that comment otherwise? It is a pretty bad way to troll. Prodego  talk  01:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And a good way to troll would be what? Any statement that triggers a silly discussion like this is perfect trolling.  —Wknight94 (talk) 01:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

A lot of misinformation
71.254.52.213 is changing a lot of things, he might be running some sort of bot. Either way, he's been at it for almost two hours. This is an example of his work:. Some edits look fine but I think those are just disguised better. Jeffrey.Kleykamp 00:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Almost an edit every 2 minutes! Maybe not quite a Vandalbot, but definitely someone with an itchy Special:Random finger or something similar.  A r k y <font color= "#b7410e">¡Hablar!  01:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I've checked out the contribs. There seems to be quite a bit of sneaky vandalism in there.  A <font color="#964B00">r <font color="#B87333">k <font color="#CC7722">y <font color= "#b7410e">¡Hablar!  01:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Irishguy reverted most of it, and I got a couple. And now, the question remains. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 01:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I reverted the obvious cases of vandalism. Someone may want to look over the other edits. <b style="color:green;">IrishGuy</b> <sup style="color:blue;">talk 01:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Atulsnischal and WP:MULTI
User:Atulsnishcal had previously been advised about this, yet he persistently pastes same, unrelated content to various article and project talk pages. For example, he is now adding a "How to edit articles and add references" guide to the following:


 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Schools
 * Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Protected_areas_of_India
 * Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics
 * User_talk:Vaarunya.bhalla
 * Talk:Mayoites
 * Talk:Mayo College

This is not an isolated incident, the user has consistently done such mass-scale talk page flooding before. --Ragib 00:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Ragib has been stalking the articles I edit on wikipedia systematically since the past many months since my interaction with him on Bengal Monitor page, I request he be given a severe warning against stalking WP:STALKING, I have made complains before

Thankyou Atulsnischal 01:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Atul, please do not make unfounded allegations here. Am I undoing your every edit? Then, it's not stalking by any means. Also, I have virtually been away from Wikipedia in the last month.


 * But in any case, the diffs above show a clear ignorance of talk page etiquette. Given that the user is not a newbie, such behavior, when repeated, is just plain disruption. Thank you. --Ragib 01:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Last week he posted an entire conversation held on his talkpage to several different article talkpages and noticeboards under the heading "Hornplease is censoring Wikipedia". This was after I told him about wp:multi twice. Also, he copied a page going through an AfD to various other article talkpages. He has been around for a year. Hornplease 02:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Another editor and I (who have had had no other interaction/dispute with ), politely told him a couple of days back that he should stop spamming multiple talk pages and project notice boards, and instead post his comments on the appropriate forum. However, Atul simply blanked the message we left and has continued with posting lengthy, irrelevant and misformatted "How-to"s on multiple page. I trust that the user is acting in good faith (and I am not just AGFing), but he really needs to learn to: I don't think this is a blockable offense yet, but it would be good if some more editors/admins help get the message across. Abecedare 02:31, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Limit his posts to relevant subjects and relevant pages.
 * 2) Stop posting 50 words long bolded headers that make both the talk page, and particularly the table-of contents unreadable. See examples here, here, here  and here

Ironically, my reporting of this user's flooding behavior here unleashed the latest round of flooding from him. He has pasted the comments from above (including my comments) to his and my talk pages:
 * here
 * and here.

--Ragib 02:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I have not blanked any page just put it in my Talk Page archives.

Atulsnischal 02:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I find it really hard to believe in Atul's good faith, as he is continuously flooding various talk pages. Here again are some of his latest flood-posts:


 * Wikipedia_talk%3ANoticeboard_for_India-related_topics (added to his previous message)
 * Wikipedia_talk:Hinduism-related_topics_notice_board, same message, different project page

And he's adamant to have his "How-to-edit" manual in a large number of Project pages: (no matter how unrelated it is!!)
 * Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics added his How-to again using Undo.

(Note this related edit is interesting ... )

I request an uninvolved admin to make Atul stop his flooding. For some reason, he tends to take any advice coming from me as "Against him", and reacts to it. So, advice or admin action from an uninvolved admin would be much appreciated here. He's not a newbie, so ignorance of WP rules is no excuse for him. Thanks. --Ragib 04:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Hornplease is systematically censoring articles about Hinduism and removing mention of atrocities committed by muslims against hindus
He has been systematically deleting mass text from related wikipedia articles

and additionally he has continuously taken to stalking me WP:STALKING, please warn him too for both above and specially censoring wikipedia with his biased and bogus policy arguments for doing so

Thanks Atulsnischal 03:09, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This is a content dispute. You don't need admins to play nanny for you &mdash; and quite frankly, your accusations of "stalking" appear largely unfounded.  --Haemo 03:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please take a look at the dispute resolution process. This is a dispute over content, and no administrative tasks needs to be performed. --<font face="Harlow Solid Italic" color="black">DarkFalls talk 06:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Copyrighted material
I would like to request advice and perhaps also assistance in a case of a copyright violation. User:Squash Racket copy&pasted a sentence from Britannica into a lead of Wikipedia's article, leaving a funny threat in the edit summary ("once more you remove important referenced material, we will talk to an administrator"). After I removed the sentence and explained the reasons on the talk page, Squash Racket reinserted the sentence with only a slight change of wording, from "By the terms of the treaty, Hungary was shorn of at least two-thirds of its former territory and two-thirds of its inhabitants" to "By the terms of this treaty, Hungary was shorn of at least two-thirds of its former territory and two-thirds of its inhabitants". I am not sure if this change of one word is substantial enough, so I would appreciate if someone with more experience can evaluate it. Just in case the article is still violating copyright, could you also fix it? Squash Racket has removed all my previous messages from his/her talk page and is not extremely polite towards me, so my further engagement could be arguably perceived as a hostile act by him/her. Tankred 02:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I brought ONE SENTENCE from Britannica, it's been already changed in a number of ways not only by me, User:Tankred once again fell short of assuming good faith while not being shy about personal attacks himself.
 * Still the sentence is crucial in understanding the whole article and should stay in the lead in its present form. Squash Racket 03:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It's important to avoid copyright problems. I would like to point out that even if it was explained to User:Squash Racket the reasons why this cannot be used there, he/she continued to use it and the conversation with User:Squash Racket is quite impossible because of his/her continues accusations and a very hostile attitude. I would ask Squash Racket to try to have a more positive attitude and to try to collaborate with the other users instead of atacking them. -- R O  <tt> A M A  T  A A </tt> |<font style="color:blue;background:yellow;"> msg  04:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, then I'll repeat: I brought ONE SENTENCE from Britannica, it's been already changed in a number of ways not only by me, so no more copyright problems.
 * Please Roamataa assume good faith and try to collaborate with other users instead of attacking them. Squash Racket 05:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please be aware that Wikipedia does not accept copyright material. However, in this case, I am highly doubtful one sentence could cause a massive havoc about copyright regulations. Please calm down, it's not a big issue and can be solved easily. Just alter the text in some way (change wording, structure) and the issue will be resolved. --<font face="Harlow Solid Italic" color="black">DarkFalls talk 06:16, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

continues personal attacks
This editor continues to make personal attacks in the course of this discussion. he's been twice reminded about NPA and CIVIL, and has a long history of being blocked for this very thing. His latest. You can see the paypal talk page in the sections previous for several more examples.--Crossmr 15:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Fixed the template in the heading. x42bn6 Talk Mess  15:42, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * He continues his personal attacks with edit summaries like this: .--Crossmr 12:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * He's also editing disruptively by making edits like this, and additional personal attacks as such .--Crossmr 12:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think this user is disruptive, too - although I think it is down to being argumentative. I'm not familiar with this case and it does look confusing - but his block log seems empty .  x42bn6 Talk Mess  14:02, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Something wrong with your link: . He has 8 blocks--Crossmr 14:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected. x42bn6 Talk Mess  14:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * According to the summaries there may have been a previous arbcom case against this individual for this behaviour. While these were awhile ago, he's made very little edits in that time. Which just goes more towards showing a continuation of previous behaviour.--Crossmr 14:20, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, his previous arbcom case was about this exact type of behaviour it seems its not limited to just gender issues .--Crossmr 14:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I should probably address these blocks. There are only 7 if you exclude the block that was removed due to conflict of interst. ePlease try reading what they were blocking me for--basically I was forbidden from criticizing any admin actions.  Several of them were clear conflicts of interest.  Note how it was basically the same the one admin doing it, who held a grudge against me.  One of the blocks was even reversed by another admin because they thought they were deliberately distorting the meaning of what I was saying to be an insult and that it was a clear conflict of interest.  Another was for an alleged legal threat by the same admin involved in a conflict of interest.  I was blocked for criticizing him for abusing his power by one of his friends (David).  One of the admins involved even threatened to block me for creating a straw poll about policy.  Notably, one of them, snowspinner/phil sandifer, has had various RFCs against him and several arbcom cases involving abuse of admin powers that had nothing to do with me (although those were rejected because he knows the arbs involved much to the chagrin of users who thought it was clear favortism). -Nathan J. Yoder 06:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

This is an abuse of AN/I. Ultimately, this is a content dispute and he's using me accusing him of acting in bad faith and lying (which he most definitely has and you can read it yourself to see where I pointed out it) as an excuse to get support on a content dispute. Remember, this is a guy who violated 3RR on one of the articles, even though he claims to fervently abide by policies (he never even apologized or conceded that it was wrong to do). He's even carried his grudge further--following me into other talk pages just to disagree with me and add nothing to the discussion (including in WP:V andWP:RS) where I made considerable effort to write an essay for other people there and obstinately stated he didn't need to add to the debate and instead it was acceptable to just repeat that he thinks I'm wrong over and over. The arcom case against me was for personal attacks in part, but mostly it was about a content dispute, although arb isn't allow to rule on that so one arbcom member added a bunch of other random charges without providing evidence for them. People generally assume that because it was decided against me that they don't need to check it to see how true the claims are. -Nathan J. Yoder 03:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Your current behaviour and unending personal attacks and disruptive editing are all the evidence anyone needs as to whether your behaviour continues. You were reminded on your talk page that forums were unacceptable citations by another editor and yet you continue to edit war by reinserting text on the paypal article which clearly does not have citation. The burden of evidence is on you since you want to restore the material and you're failing to do so. Your arbcom case was very clearly decided against you and you're continuing that behaviour here.--Crossmr 04:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You selectively ignored what I said. You, yourself, are repeatedly accusing me of soapboxing and pov pushing, so don't act so innocent.  You are turning this into a content dispute, which is inapproprite for AN/I--it's a bad faith accusation.  You just commented on my essay on WP:RS yet again just to repeat how wrong you think I am, without contributing anything new and also bringing in this outside dispute (which has nothing to do with the wp:rs talk page) to accuse  me of soapboxing and trying to get support there.  If you were being honest, you'd take note that the person who commented on my talk page disagreed with you too that my edits were disruptive and even stated that the forum was notable.
 * YOU violated 3RR, not me, so who is the one making disruptive edits? "Edits I disagree with" is not "disruptive edits." That makes this .  You're poisoning the well (I expect you to ignore this).  My arbcom case was decided against me, and I acknowledged that, and I sp ecifically made the point that people aren't bothering to read through allt he claims to decide how true it is.  Good job being honest and addressing what I actuallyy said, though.  -Nathan J. Yoder 04:13, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * In fact even after being told again that forums are unacceptable sources . You continue to edit in the face of policy and consensus by reverting material without the proper citation. . If you are trying to draw a conclusion about whether or not a criticism is common you need a reliable source (e.g. a newspaper article) to say "This type of criticism about paypal is common". If you try to support your argument with an unreliable source (like a forum) and draw a conclusion on your own about the commonness of the criticism, you're violating WP:NOR. Even assembling a bunch of reliable sources which state a given criticism, you're still violating WP:NOR by drawing a conclusion which a reliable source doesn't draw for you. You don't have to revert more than 3 times in a 24 hour period to violate 3RR, maybe you need to not only read the policy again, but read the comment left on the complaint you made.--Crossmr 04:15, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And in addition you admit to violating policy, yet continue to do so.--Crossmr 04:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Why are you ignoring the points that they made stating that you were wrong? You keep ignoring when other people point out when you're wrong, but try to rub it in my face when they agree with you.  At best that's hyperbole and at worst that's a lie--I certainly never admitted that.  I never admitted to violating policy.  Considering WP:RS is a guideline, it would be hard to violate a policy and furthermore, arguing an exception (which is explicitly allowed) would also not be a violation of policy.  Again, you're using AN/I to argue content, oh well.  You are making a straw man argument, I was using the forums to determine notability of paypalsucks and the criticism therein, for the purpose of including it--I never stated that I'd include a statement saying they were common. WHat is wrong with "the people of paypalsucks.com have said...." or even just including a link to paypalsucks.com.  It is absolutely necessary, by your own admission, to determine commonality of viewpoints to determine due weight.  That's what I'm doing--assessing it to determine whether or not to include paypalsucks can be included, which doesn't require saying how common those criticisms are.  And remember, you've already stated that it's necessary o assess commonality for NPOV--you can't backpedal.  BTW, one of the reliable sources actually does say that many people hold a certain criticism, but you rejected that on the basis that the author allegedly doesn't consider it notable, which is irrelevant. Point ot the specific part of 3RR that supports you not violating it, but I think you'll refuse to do so.  The comment left on the 3RR was simply that they decided not to block you, not stating that you didn't violate it. -Nathan J. Yoder 05:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * they also stated that they felt you were edit warring to in violation of 3RR even though you didn't go over 3 edits, or did you chose to ignore that?--Crossmr 05:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Who stated that and where? Are you trying to twist someone's word again?  I don't recall anyone accusing me of violating 3RR.  In fact, I recall that guy said that I'm not technically violating it.  Can't you admit that you violated it?  Please be honest.  Since you started this ridiculous grudge-fest against me and are violating WP:NOT (bureaucracy section) by starting this arbcom case, I think I'll stop commenting in this place to you for a while, unless something unexpected comes up, especially considering I have made an extreme attempt to address everything you've said, and you've responded by running in circles instead of giving thoughtful responses. -Nathan J. Yoder 05:41, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The editor who commented agreed you were edit warring, but misinterpreted WP:3RR as he said because the reporter is also edit warring, even if not technically breaking 3RR however 3RR states you don't HAVE to commit 4 reverts in a 24 hour period to be considered breaking 3RR. But its moot since you decided to violate it last night when editing intellitxt.--Crossmr 13:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

He also continues to edit war in the face of policy and even though a third editor has stepped in multiple times to attempt to clarify appropriate sources for him. Here he asks for a hard consensus that it be required that the individual be an expert, yet WP:V has be referenced to him multiple times. Though in this case he feels WP:V shouldn't apply to his edits and only WP:RS should for some reason apply to them. All edits to wikipedia have to conform to WP:V. Here a compromise is even suggested by a third editor, but instead of taking that compromise and discussing it, he continues to edit war, .--Crossmr 05:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not a moot point if you tried to lie to make me look bad. Yes, in other words he didn't say I volated 3RR, so what you said was a lie.  I can't believe you are refusing to concede that he never said it even after quoting him NOT SAYING IT.  Go ahead, point to the part of 3RR where you don't need 3 edits to do this, I asked you and you still refused to provide it.  Yes, I did violate it last night, but by accident because I miscounted edits and I won't do it again.  See? I can acknowledge it, why can't you acknowledge yours? -Nathan J. Yoder 05:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure thing, from WP:3RR The rule does not convey an entitlement to revert three times each day, nor does it endorse reverting as an editing technique; rather, the rule is an "electric fence".[1] Editors may still be blocked even if they have not made more than three reverts in any given 24 hour period, if their behavior is clearly disruptive. The fact that you admit to counting edits to make sure your get your 3 to try and push unacceptable sources in to an article very clearly shows you're violating the spirit of that policy.--Crossmr 06:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you ignore CGD saying my edits weren't disruptive? Interesting, however, nothing supports me violating it. You are a part of the edit war too, so then you'd be guilty of the same, if it were true.  I count edits so I don't violate it, so does everyone else who does multiple reverts on a page within 24 hours--including you or are you going to lie and say you haven't counted edits?  I don't admit to trying to push unacceptable sources in the slightest, but you're free to lie if you wish.  It seems that whenever you make statements like this, I question them repeatedly and only after me asking you many times, you SCRAMBLE to find something to support yourself and then state that I "admitted" something, with your evidence being some deep, hidden implication in something I said.  You have repeatedly violated WP:CIVIL.  Remember when you claimed I was trying to WP:OWN an article after I issued a polite request to you?  The hypocrisy of you even trying to assess the spirit of a rule, when you've already indicated that you're strongly opposed to any descriptive interpretations, is enormous.  I can't believe you accuse me of being uncivil when you're here trying to ferociously pursue me me (you've been directly recruiting people to agree with you), you repeatedly accuse me of POV pushing, soap boxing, acting in bad faith (when I've PROVEN that you have), ignoring people after I directly replied and counter-argued, admitting things I never admitted, violating rules I didn't violate (e.g. 3RR accusation, OWN), you've harassed and followed me, etc...
 * I don't get it. Do you in all honesty believe that you've been acting in a civil manner?  Do you honestly believe that these accusations, based on me admitting something when I never did?  I guess all I can do is laugh it off, because you're getting so uncivil and out of hand while accusing me of the same...being oblivious to this. -Nathan J. Yoder 08:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you miss where he specifically addressed one edit and said he didn't see what was disruptive about that? He didn't address all of your edits. However someone else did, in fact two other people, someone in this very discussion and someone on the 3RR noticeboard, who felt you're edit warring and being disruptive. When a dispute is at an impasse, its quite common to bring in outside opinion, WP:DR. If you notice coolcaeser found the paypal article on his own. So did the two people who responded to your RfC that you dismissed because they didn't stick around and debate it. You very clearly told me that if I didn't debate in the manner you wanted, I shouldn't be involved in the discussion. that's a clear violation of WP:OWN. Whether you slap please on the front or not. You already admitted you violated WP:3RR whether it was "by accident" or otherwise, you violated it. In terms of violating it otherwise, it very clearly states you don't have to go over 3 edits in a day to violate, and two people have already held the opinion that you're edit warring and being disruptive, so yes there is plenty to support your violating it.--Crossmr 13:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Overstock.com/WordBomb/Judd Bagley
I've just blocked 65.116.112.0/21, which is an IP range (a) owned by Overstock.com (b) widely used by them for spamming, COI editing and attempted intimidation of administrators dealing with them. I strongly suggest against unblocking this range under any circumstances; requested unblocks should probably be run past the ArbCom, who are very aware of Bagley/Overstock's odious work, before acting - David Gerard 13:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I copied your message to Category:Requests for unblock, to advertise it a bit. -- lucasbfr <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk 16:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The spam problem will get plenty of attention on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam --Hu12 16:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I only get one IP from that range that has edited the project. Tagged it accordingly--Hu12 16:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * David Gerard is a checkuser so if he says that range has been used abusively, he probably knows what he is talking about. Thatcher131 16:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * And I've verified the finding. There are worse things than spammers. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 16:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You mean like Suppressive Persons or Unpersons? That seems to be how that guy is regarded by the WikiClique, resulting in actions being taken against anything to do with him without permitting anything resembling discussion or debate... you know, the sort in which there is more than one side allowed to present their case? *Dan T.* 17:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Bagley's case is that he's been stalking people with quite some viciousness for commercial gain. He even got writeups in the NYT and NY Post, so I can state he's an odious stalking arsehole with Reliable Sources! I urge you to start reading up - he's really at a new and exciting level of odiousness - David Gerard 18:59, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest, Dan, that you research before knee-jerk reacting. Informed opposition tends to be given a lot more respect than reflexive opposition. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 22:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * What I've seen is that there's a big pissing contest that's been going on for years between the guy at Overstock and a guy at Wikipedia, with some other people involved too, and the whole thing has generally proceeded with the maturity level of junior high school, and the dignity level of monkeys flinging feces at one another, and has generated much more heat than light. Each side postures about being knights in shining armor saving the world from dastardly evil-doers, and likes to slant the playing field so that only their side gets to be heard.  Frankly, Wikipedia would be better off rid of everybody in this dispute, regardless of which side they're on. *Dan T.* 23:20, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And I'm supposed to get balanced information on the dispute, in order to be well informed, how? On Wikipedia, where the topic seems to be taboo, and barely mentioned in polite company, and a lot of the relevant stuff has been reverted, deleted, or maybe even oversighted, and pretty much everybody from the POV opposing the clique here is banned?  On the infamous "attack sites", where you can see lots of relevant info, but it's probably mostly bullshit?  Perhaps in the New York Post (mentioned above in this thread), which from what I've seen of it (a co-worker of mine is an avid reader of it and brings it to work every day) is a sleazy tabloid not all that much above the National Enquirer in the area of providing objective journalism? *Dan T.* 00:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to do your homework for you in this case. And obviously I have no power to stop any admin undoing the block should they seriously consider it unrighteous. However, I do suggest that, in the case of receiving an apparently reasonable unblock request, they forward it to the arbitration committee rather than undoing it themselves - David Gerard 15:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)




 * The link however does seem to be a problem--Hu12 16:26, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I used virgil's wikiscanner, however reliable that is. LOL. --Hu12 17:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I got the IP range by doing a whois on an IP used by a pile of obvious overstock.com socks - David Gerard 18:59, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Here's the arin output: >whois -h whois.arin.net overstock.com

[Querying whois.arin.net] [whois.arin.net] Overstock.com (OVERST) OVERSTOCK.COM (OVERS-2) Overstock.com (AS25655) OSTK-COM   25655 Overstock.com USW-OVERSTOCK-3 (NET-216-160-9-16-1) 216.160.9.16 - 216.160.9.23 OVERSTOCK.COM Q0909-65-116-112-0 (NET-65-116-112-0-1) 65.116.112.0 - 65.116.119.255 Overstock.com SNGLDG-OVERSTOCK-NET-1 (NET-68-142-145-176-1) 68.142.145.176 - 68.142.145.191


 * 1) ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2007-09-03 19:10
 * 2) Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.

They have been very naughty. A good case for localy (en. only) blacklisting the url. The links realy don't have a place on the project outside Overstock.com's article. --Hu12 22:46, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I haven't run across Overstock.com's nasty Wikipedia work; I've only read about it in the newspapers and blogs. When it becomes that famous, IP range blocking is a good start. And when the IP range block is noted in a blog, there probably is more work to do. -- <font face="Kristen ITC"><font color="Blue">Jreferee  (Talk) 15:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Based on the above posts, "Overstock.com's nasty Wikipedia work" will soon have achieved sufficient notability for its own article. When I grow up, I want to fight spam.  Sheffield Steel talkersstalkers 21:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Might want to look at would appear to be related to --Hu12 06:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Matt Crypto
I have found that this administrator frequently will revert changes made by an editor even if they had every right to make the change. This has happened to me, but looking over his talk page, I am not the only one. He is abusing his admisistrative privelages by acting as a dictator, and not listening to people's opinions. Often, he will rule against a clear concensus by claiming that Wikipedia is not a democracy. While I agree that Wikipedia is not a democracy, one of the pillars is supposed to be collaboration and consencus. This administrator frequently throws that out the window. I would be happy to respond to any inquiries or questions you have, and hope that you can do something about this. Thank you.--TyGuy92 01:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Could you cite some examples in the form of diffs? Thanks. Picaroon (t) 01:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It looks like the locus of the dispute is Push up, which TyGuy92 is incorrectly attempting to redirect to Push Up (which itself is a redirect to Push up) Raul654 01:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The reason it is incorrectly linking is because I make the changes which Matt incorrectly reverted back by doing a sloppy job. Also, the "push up" dispute was just my bit, if you look over his discussion page you see other incidents where he has been unfair.  Just by skimming over his page you should start to see a pattern.  In one occurence that later ended with an agreement by the two partiies, he reverted "humor" to "humour".  Also, he has been accused of doctoring comments made by others.  Also, in this exchange you will see that he has been abusing his administrative powers seemingly just for the hell of it: here.  If you need further information, I would be glad to give it.--TyGuy92 01:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * TyGuy, you were performing a cut and paste move, which violates the license under which Wikipedia is copyrighted, because it splits the history. Matt Crypto was reverting your improper move as he should have, and I imagine the reason it seemed sloppy was due to you two editing at the same time. However, I can see no evidence that he bothered to inform you that cut & paste moves are inappropriate, which is somewhat disappointing, as this is a common error. Natalie 03:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * "He is abusing his admisistrative privelages by acting as a dictator, and not listening to people's opinions" - the administrator tools do not include a tab which says "act like a dictator and ignore everyone else". I seem to be repeating myself a lot recently on this, and here goes again: an administrator can only be considered to be 'abusing' their administrative privileges if they block or unblock a user inappropriately, delete, undelete or publish deleted content inappropriately, protect, unprotect or edit a protected page (including MediaWiki) inappropriately, or use administrator rollback inappropriately. Incivility, personal attacks, ignoring other users, etc. is not absuing their administrative privileges.  Daniel  07:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Given the matter that initiated this entry (Talk:Press up), I think it is worthwhile to duplicate my comment placed on that talk page here, which was prompted by some statements made by TyGuy92 about what he was about to do:
 * Thank you.  DDStretch    (talk)  10:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * As far as I can see, Matt Crypto's reversion of the page move (and his earlier intervention in the humour/humor debate) is in accordance with WP:ENGVAR, which states that if an article is written in a certain national variety of English, it should stick with that form. Also, I can't find any use of admin-specific powers by Matt Crypto at all in the page history, never mind abusive ones. Lurker (said · done) 16:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That viewpoint is essentially the same as mine&mdash;I can see no reason why Matt Crypto is accused of abuse of admin powers. But, I have seen some uncivil comments by TyGuy92, which I removed from Talk:Press up today as I considered that they were uncivil, irrelevant, and were potentially inflammatory. ( diff here.)   DDStretch    (talk)  17:09, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Raasgat - possible sockpuppet of User:Paul venter
I've been discussing some controversial edits by User:Raasgat with that editor regarding headings. Upon further investigation into the edits of this user found similar patters with a User:Paul venter, who was once blocked for copyright violations and personal attacks. I wasn't sure what to do or where to report this, but here are some links:
 * Paul venter created a copyvio article at Vibration-powered generator. Raasgat recreated the article at the title Vibration powered generator diff.
 * Raasgat's account appeared log a few days after Paul venter was last blocked log.
 * Raasgat's has edited the same articles Paul venter has edited:
 * A short list: Orothamnus, ‎Selmar Schonland, ‎Thomas Robertson Sim, ‎Cathy O'Dowd, ‎Arnold Theiler, List of South African plant botanical authors, etc.

Since I've been so involved in the discussion with User:Raasgat I'd appreciate some help determining the correct course of action here. Thanks! --Rkitko (talk) 16:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC) Venter was never indef blocked, he could edit with that account now if he wanted to, as far as I know. Is he actually violating WP:SOCK? They're really so similar there's no need for a checkuser... but I'm not sure there's anything blockable here? --W.marsh 21:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, another likely sockpuppet appeared in the DRV of a Paul venter article: Deletion review/Log/2007 July 17. . --W.marsh 19:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the info. diff sure looks like the editing pattern of all three. Any thoughts on what to do? Should I try to get a checkuser or place this discussion at the appropriate place for suspected sockpuppets? Cheers, --Rkitko (talk) 19:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm not sure. I'm not too familiar with WP:SOCK, but in my opinion he was approaching WP:OWN and WP:POINT with some of his edits regarding style issues (and quasi-personal attacks, but nothing too obvious to warrant action beyond a warning). I haven't checked his articles for copyvio, since that seemed to be a problem for the Paul venter user account. He did, however, edit the same articles the Venter user account had to re-establish his preferred style on articles that had since been edited by others to comply with guidelines. The issue is moot, though, as it seems he's backed off on editing. A real shame since the articles he had been creating were of value. He just hated to see infoboxes and what he considered bad style on his articles. I do wonder if he'll create another account, though, to circumvent discussion. --Rkitko (talk) 23:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps... "Avoiding scrutiny from other editors"? Those who were tracking the Venter user account missed the almost two months of activity on the Raasgat account. Raasgat had indicated he might not continue editing, but new contributions appeared today that consist of mostly edit warring over grammar (diff) and style issues (diff). Contributions that have substance are good, but all the others are combative attempts to institute style preferences. --Rkitko (talk) 15:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, I'm apparently a "clueless chum" (not the worst thing I've been called...) diff after I placed an image in a taxobox against this user's wish diff, which he then attempted to change in this botched edit which only duplicated the image. --Rkitko (talk) 15:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have a feeling that this was also the editor in question, since the IP reverted all the style issues Raasgat has confirmed to abhor. --Rkitko (talk) 15:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

User : 194.144.111.210
User:194.144.111.210 has repeatedly reverted edits on the list of thrash metal bands. User reverts the removal of a groove metal band Devildriver from the list. Here is the diff of his latest edit. The user has been blocked previously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Weltanschaunng (talk • contribs) 16:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Please report at WP:AIV ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I did that before I reported it here (me being new to the admin process). It is being ignored there, I guess. Can you do something about it? Weltanschaunng 16:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the problem at AIV is that, while the edits may not be great, they are really not strictly "vandalism". It's also not particularly current, with only a single edit today, over 4 hours ago.  I've seen the report there for a while, and decided to let some other admin handle it.  If other admins are doing the same, that may end up being why it is sitting there unanswered.  - TexasAndroid 17:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Well after i reverted his edit, he reverted my edit again, stating that 'Encyclopaedia Metallum [www.metal-archives.com] is not a credible source, while he himself provides no credible source to support his claim. Here is a diff of the last edit. As you can see he is persistent in adding 'devildriver' to the list, without providing sources. Weltanschaunng 15:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Phil Sandifer/Rambutan
Phil Sandifer and Rambutan are engaged in a long-standing dispute about lots of petty things. Phil just blocked Rambutan for the umpteenth time while at the same time engaged in an editing dispute with him, as evident from this, this, this etc. I do not endorse Rambutan's actions, but Phil shouldn't block a user whom he (admittedly) had lots of negative interactions with.  Melsaran  (talk) 19:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Phil provided a reasoning for the block here.  Melsaran  (talk) 19:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't get along with Rambutan, but even I have to speak up. Phil clearly has a grudge against Rambutan, I've seen a lot of baiting (on Phil's side), clearly he wishes to block him [Rambutan]. I'm still trying to figure out the problem this time, it appears to be about some "swatch" that overlays a page? Matthew 19:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conf)Amongst other things apparently, yes, and blocks the copyright information, as well as messing up the user buttons on smaller browsers which could make it impossible for other users to get in touch with him. Really though, he's being warned for messing with other people's talk page comments, then he attempts to totally remove and hide his block notice, and then leaving an unblock notice that seems to want the reviewing admin to think the previous one had given no reason for blocking outside his block summary. Not to mention saying he thought he was working in IRC consensus, I was on the IRC channel at the time he was talking about it, and the opinions were OVERWHELMINGLY that it was inappropriate for a user page and did nothing to help further the encyclopedia -- lucid 19:18, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Since I wrote the above message, the user has readded the above message, but hidden any fact that it is a block message from the header or the box, in addition to trying to hide the message itself -- lucid 19:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed - I think hiding the block explanation and then requesting an unblock perfectly encapsulates the problem here. Phil Sandifer 19:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It was a banner that blocked out the link to the text of the GFDL, and thus violated the GFDL. An honest mistake, I'm sure. But that he repeatedly restored the template even after being told the problem is not and cannot be anything but disruption. Phil Sandifer 19:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * As for the accusation of baiting, I object most strenuously to the idea that warning people about policy violations is baiting. This "damned if you do, damned if you don't" approach benefits only trolls and rules-lawyers. This matter is simple - Rambutan has been repeatedly disruptive. Rambutan has been warned. Rambutan continued. Rambutan got blocked. It's a simple, straightforward story. Phil Sandifer 19:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I honestly feel the only person being disruptive is you. I've seen nothing to convince me that you aren't intentionally going out of your way to annoy this user. You're bullying him — just not in the usual sense of the word. Matthew 19:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * In general, glancing at the contributions of a user with a past pattern of disruption has not been considered bullying or stalking, and warning about disruptive behavior has not generally been treated as bullying or disruption. If I've made frivolous or undue warnings, initiated conflicts with him, or otherwise done anything to elicit a response, by all means point it out. But for the most part, I feel strongly that I have done nothing that is not a routine administrative task. Phil Sandifer 19:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This is not a useful application of "long-standing dispute." My only dispute with Rambutan has been enforcing 3RR and disruption policies - I have never had an editing conflict with him. It is not (and cannot be) a COI to have previously enforced policy - in fact, the idea that there is some continuity in policy enforcement from first warning to lengthy block requires some consistency in who deals with it. That Rambutan has gone out of his way to try to create a COI by fast-nominating articles for deletion does not create a meaningful COI.


 * Furthermore, Rambutan is disruptive - he misleadingly edits talk pages, removes warnings from his page, and knowingly restores content that is disruptive. He misidentifies edits as vandalism, he excessively polices pages using automated rollback tools to rollback non-vandalism edits, he does not use the talk page to discuss his removals. He has been warned about all of this, he persists in doing it. That is to say, the block not only does not violate COI, it is a good idea. Phil Sandifer 19:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Removing warnings from one's talk page is allowed (but not really nice), and using automated rollback tools (not admin rollback) in content disputes isn't really harmful as long as he provides a reason in the edit summary and doesn't use it to mass-revert; the result is the same as when he had done the edit manually. And you should have left the decision to block or not to another administrator.  Melsaran  (talk) 19:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Could you show me your rule that prohibits him from removing comments from his user talk page? Could you also show me a rule that prohibits him from using a javascript tool to revert with a reason. Simply it seems he would be using it out of convenience. Matthew 19:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Using tools that mimic the administrative rollback tools in ways that violate the rules for those tools is pretty much a no-brainer, I should imagine. And while he is welcome to remove comments from his user talk page, removing warnings is frowned upon. In all cases, though, the relevant policy is "don't disrupt Wikipedia." If you're behaving beligerantly and in a way that makes it difficult for people to communicate appropriately with you about that, you're violating that policy, which is a very flexible one. Phil Sandifer 19:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * For the record, I do not frown upon my warnings been removed from userspace. Such deletions are not permanent and can always be looked up in the histories of the respective pages. Edit-warring over restoration of such notices however, specially on the talk pages of other users can be considered disruptive, and sometimes be considered as baiting. — Nearly Headless Nick   {C}  17:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I would note that, in addition to hiding my block text before requesting an unblock. Rambutan has simply removed User:Majorly's declining of the block to ask again. This, needless to say, is also disruptive. Phil Sandifer 19:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * For the record, he restored the block text in a visible but default-collapsed box within 6 minutes of deleting it, and only 2 minutes after the unblock request. It wasn't a permanent text deletion.  Georgewilliamherbert 21:13, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * He also changed the text so that there was no way an admin would know that there were block reasons there. Phil Sandifer 21:14, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It said "From Phil Sandifer", subtitled "Take a peep if it interests you". He didn't change what you wrote, inside the collapsed box.  I would hope that an admin would look to see what was there before doing an unblock, if you were the listed blocking admin.  I'm not disagreeing it was disruptive (nor that his earlier stuff was... PRODing Science ???) but this particular bit wasn't that bad.  Georgewilliamherbert 21:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I fully support Phil's actions here. When I have even one run-in with a disruptive user, you can bet I put that user on my watchlist and keep an eye on them from then on.  That is not stalking, baiting, what have you.  If they disrupt again, I'm even more vigilant about their actions.  Seems pretty cut and dry to me. --<b style="color:#6666FF;">Spike Wilbury</b> <b style="color:#000000;">♫</b>  talk  20:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Rambutan has been persistently disruptive, combining this with querulous and unreasonable behavior when blocked. Phil acted correctly here. --Tony Sidaway 11:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

POV pushing on Tim Lahaye
recently popped up on Tim LaHaye, a leader of the Christian right in America, and insisted on removing the entire criticism section because "it has no references" and it apparently violated WP:NPOV and WP:NOR (so says his edit summary, anyway). To highlight his cherrypicking of policies, citing BLP, I removed everything else in the article that was unreferenced that Itake had conveniently ignored in his eagerness to enforce BLP on the criticism section. Itake has responded by trying to remove the only cited sentences on the article, ones that I had added about a month previously stating LaHaye's son is gay. I am starting to get rather tired of Itake's blatant POV pushing and mischaracterisation (from his comments on the talkpage he seems to think I'm a left winger who hates Tim Lahaye, when I'm really just unimpressed with his obvious POV removals and the only reason LaHaye was on my watchlist was because I was making sure the sentences I added didn't get taken out by people such as... well, Itake). If someone could warn him or do something, I would be grateful. I'm happy for the article to be restored to its previous state, I just want whatever incarnation it takes to not be skewed to any partisan liking. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 08:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think your responce there is bordering on a WP:POINT violation. Od Mishehu 08:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed with the above. Retributive partial blanking was not the best choice of reactions. Kyaa the Catlord 09:16, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Somehow, I don't think even the most imaginative reading of WP:POINT can produce "enforcing WP:BLP in its entirety on an article is disruptive and should not be done". Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 12:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That's why its called "gaming the system". You're abusing "the system" to illustrate your point. Kyaa the Catlord 13:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If WP:BLP weren't involved, I don't think the above blanking by Dev920 would need to be considered as a WP:POINT violation. However, BLP quite specifically says that unsourced critical information about living people must be removed from articles. WP:3RR contains an exclusion clause for this type of edit. Removal of non-critical information, even if unsourced, does not have the same level of importance. Sheffield Steel talkersstalkers 14:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Let's face it, WP:BLP is fundamentally a lawsuit-avoidance protocol. People aren't going threaten to sue over saying something good about them, whether sourced or not. Raymond Arritt 14:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * BLP aside, every piece of information needs to be referenced to an independent reliable source if challenged. (( 1 == 2 ) ? ((' Stop ') : ('<font color="Green">Go ')) 14:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism by 80.231.198.xxx
This range has vandalized a number of articles over the past hour -- see as a for-instance. Somehow all this vandalism has gone unnoticed, but I'm cleaning it up currently -- but I think a range block may be in order? This looks very deliberate. Gscshoyru 14:09, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I anon blocked the 80.231.198.0/24 range for 1 hour, to calm it down. It's my first range block so don't hesitate to unblock if I made a mistake. -- lucasbfr <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk 14:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * From the whois, it appears the range could have been made even smaller. 80.231.198.64/28 perhaps.  If it continues after an hour, I'd try that smaller range for a longer duration.  —Wknight94 (talk) 14:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Samantha Brady-Roberts
There's something going on on this article such that this article, Sami Brady, and Samantha Roberts Roberts are in a redirect loop, though the talk page works (I think). I fixed one redirect, but got into the loop somewhere else as a result. I'd guess this is edit-warring, so can an admin clean up the redirects and lock pagemoves so the article is visible and the dispute can be resolved? MSJapan 15:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This sounds like double redirects. Admins are not needed to fix those.  It seems to have been caused by someone recently performing a couple page moves.  If you think an edit war (or move war) is actually going on, try WP:RFPP, but I don't see one now.  —Wknight94 (talk) 15:31, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Dishonest behavior during RFC
While reviewing Requests for comment/Italiavivi I noticed that one of the parties certifying the action (USER:Ryan Postlethwaite)and who had previously been involved in some sort of dispute with the "defendant" had acted as if he were an uninvolved party, posting an Outside View (complete with endorsements). When I made a comment questioning the appropriateness of an "Outside View" from an editor previously involved with the situation, the editor removed my comment. I restored my question, and USER:Ryan Postlethwaite again removed it. I do not have a position regarding the RFC, I only question how fair of an RFC this will be with such blatantly dishonest conduct coming from one of the persons bringing the case. Disclosure: I have no previous involvement with USER:Ryan Postlethwaite, and have only seen USER:Italiavivi (defendant) around a few articles I haunt (no prior relationship). I have no idea whom to tell about my concerns of this conduct -- I'm not going to get involved in an edit war on an RFC (especially one in which I have no comment), but I believe that relegating my questioning of this conduct to the RFC talk page means it will be overlooked by the majority of people reviewing the RFC (and thus the conduct will also be overlooked). /Blaxthos 15:26, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Generally, anyone who feels they have something to say can add a view. Also, we need to be careful of suggesting that having any previous conflicts with another editor forever taints one's status with respect to that editor.  If Ryan says he's not an involved party in the RFC, let him say that.  There's nothing you've said here that requires admin attention, so you may want to bring this issue up at the RFC, if you think it's relevant. Friday (talk) 15:31, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * How exactly would I do that, other than the RFC talk page (which is, as I say, generally overlooked). /Blaxthos 15:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If you feel you have something relevant to say, feel free to add a view of your own. Friday (talk) 15:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The RFC page is for comments about the subject of dispute only. Comments about the comments, such as Blaxthos's comment, belong on the Talk page of the RFC.  That's what it's for.  Ryan endorsed the RFC and added his view.  If your only problem is that his view appears below the "Outside Views" heading instead of above it, I'm sure he won't object if you move it.  Meanwhile I notice that you didn't see fit to notify Ryan on his talk page that you'd opened a complaint against him here; you don't think he'd want to know?  -- Zsero 15:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I should clarify that the second time I removed your comment, I put it straight on the talk page and answered there, as it had no relevance to the conduct of Italiavivi. Could you please tell me how my conduct has been blatantly dishonest? I put my view down on Italiavivi's conduct, if people don't agree with that, they don't have to endorse it and can add their own view of the users behaviour. It's one of the key things to RfC's - all users should get their views accross to stop conflicts arising in the future. I should also note, that my involvement in the dispute is very minor, I simply gave him a civility warning a few months ago. In future, I would appreciate it if you could alert me if you plan to go to an admin board to discuss my conduct rather than go behind my back.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  15:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Removing tags placed on non free images with no fair use rationale
User:Chaosdevil101 has uploaded 3 non free image with no fair use rationales. See Image:Pro Evolution Soccer 2008.JPG, Image:FIFA 08 PS3.jpg and Image:Pro Evolution Soccer 2008.JPG, which the user claims that the user made himself and uploaded it under a free licence. I tagged Image:Pro Evo 2008.JPG twice, see and. However both times the user has removed the tag, see. The user seems to have treied to disguise the revert by reverting my edit, then reverting his own and then reverting again, removing the tag. The second time, it is likely that the user used a sockpuppet to remove the tag. The user also made an attack on a user page, see. For the user's overall contributions, please see. Could an admin pelase take a look. Thanks. <font COLOR="blue">Tbo 157 <font COLOR="red">talk  16:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I've reverted to your revision on Image:Pro Evo 2008.JPG and informed him that editing game covers in MS Paint does not give him the right to release them into the public domain. You can report him to Administrator intervention against vandalism if he removes your tags again without adding a rationale. Picaroon (t) 16:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Linkspamming by new editor??
Not sure if this is the right place to report this, but I'm a bit disturbed by the treatment of a newly registered editor, User:aaa intern, by several other editors, including at least one admin. This editor has been blocked from editing (just 7 minutes after a first warning!) for adding links that other editors have acknowledged improve the articles. See discussions here, here, and here. The editor may or may not be involved in linkspamming, but it seems that Wikipedia policies of Assume Good Faith and Please don't bite the newcomers are scarcely in evidence. It seems to me that such aggressive enforcement of anti-spamming policies will ultimately do more harm than good. Moreover, User:Hu12's block of aaa intern has apparently had the unintended side effect of blocking at least one other registered user. MrDarwin 00:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Some discussion is located Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam
 * Contributions to wikipedia from that account consist soley of adding external links to an organization the account is associated with. The account seems to be a WP:SPA Role account which is a violation of Help:Username. "Role accounts for the purposes of conducting public relations or marketing via the encyclopedia are strongly discouraged and will be blocked for violations of the Conflict of interest guidelines." The block does not affect User:Aaa intern's ability to edit or discuss on his/her own account talk page. No discussion, nor unblock request has come from this account, however the only discussion seems to be from MrDarwin. Account was blocked for 24 hours, I have now indefinatly blocked it as a spam only account and per ubove policy, which now should no longer affect any one sharing IP 160.111.254.11, any subsequent addresses they attempt to edit from or preventing new account creation. It appears there was an Autoblock, ID: 613575 attached to the account, this should no longer be an issue as it has been corrected.--Hu12 01:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Contributions to wikipedia from that account consist soley of adding external links to an organization the account is associated with. The account seems to be a WP:SPA Role account which is a violation of Help:Username. "Role accounts for the purposes of conducting public relations or marketing via the encyclopedia are strongly discouraged and will be blocked for violations of the Conflict of interest guidelines." The block does not affect User:Aaa intern's ability to edit or discuss on his/her own account talk page. No discussion, nor unblock request has come from this account, however the only discussion seems to be from MrDarwin. Account was blocked for 24 hours, I have now indefinatly blocked it as a spam only account and per ubove policy, which now should no longer affect any one sharing IP 160.111.254.11, any subsequent addresses they attempt to edit from or preventing new account creation. It appears there was an Autoblock, ID: 613575 attached to the account, this should no longer be an issue as it has been corrected.--Hu12 01:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If the intern wishes to register a new account, and agrees to follow all policies, I expect they could do something productive. Instead of adding COI links to articles, the intern could leave notes on the relevant talk pages suggesting these references/links and explaining why they'd be appropriate.  The Smithsonian's online collection may be worth linking to, but this should be decided by editors independent of the Smithsonian.  - Jehochman  Talk 01:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * From an actual examination of the links that were added by aaa intern, I'm hard-pressed to see that these edits were made for the purpose of "conducting public relations or marketing via the encyclopedia". Moreover, I fail to see how aaa intern violated Help:Username; as far as I or anybody else knows, these edits were made by a single person, editing under a single user name.
 * I'm also bothered by the implication that editors will be prevented from editing articles in which he or she has any particular knowledge or expertise. For the sake of improving Wikipedia and making it the best that it can be, I hope that these policies will be re-examined and leavened with a modicum of common sense.  MrDarwin 02:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I've verified that the user was adding links to Smithsonian Institution archives materials on specific artists to articles on those artists. It seems to me, to say the least, highly questionable that the only possible purpose of adding links to Smithsonian Institution materials to articles on (often very obscure) artists is solely the marketing and public relations of the Smithsonian Institution. Therefore, it seems to me that it is by no means certain that WP:COI WP:SPAM, which requires such a purpose to justify an indefinite block, has occurred. I believe WP:COI in fact specifically permits interested parties to make an edit that would be clearly appropriate if done by a non-interested party, and this would seem to be such a case. Moreover, WP:COI is a guideline, not a policy, and relevant materials in Smithsonian Institution archives would seem to be sufficiently relevant to the articles involved that discretion in applying the guideline seems appropriate. I have advised the user that a block can be appealed. I would recommend that the user be unblocked, or at least not indef-blocked. Best, --Shirahadasha 02:05, 5 September 2007 (UTC). Clarified --Shirahadasha 03:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, but the username violates WP:U and needs to be changed. There's not so much value in adding links to articles.  Google works pretty well if somebody wants to find something. I think this sets a bad example for others if we allow it. I'd rather have the intern use the article talk pages. - Jehochman  Talk 02:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have unblocked the user. If I am further overridden I will not act again on this matter, but believe that WP:SPAM simply hasn't been met since the material is not promotional in nature, is specific, relevant, and useful to the articles it was added to. I also believe that this material would be accepted by a non-interested editor if added by an ordinary user, hence WP:COI does not require interfering. I will ask the user to voluntarily refrain from adding links to the Smithsonian Institution for the time being and discuss the issue. One can question whether articles should have links at all, but the link policy permits it. Best, --Shirahadasha 02:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Fundementally, spamming is about promoting your own site or a site you love. Even commercial sites are often appropriate. Links to sites(any) for the purpose of using Wikipedia to promote it, are not. my 2 1/2 cents. For now, let see how this pans out. Contributions relating to COI need to made on the article talk pages. We all want the best for the project. Lets hope this doesn't set a bad example ;)--Hu12 03:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * For those who are interested, there have been several lengthy debates about spamming behavior by representatives of libraries, archives, what-have-you, but no consensus so far. We really need to develop a policy on this. See the discussion here and the previous discussion linked from it. There's a thread on how it's possible to be non-profit but still have a vested interest in driving traffic to your site. Katr67 03:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the deleted Archives of American Art links should be restored. User:Hu12 might suggest this to User:Aaa intern. Thanks - hopefully alls well that ends well Modernist 04:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I suspect User:Aaa intern is unfamiliar with policies here and needs some help learning the guidelines. Modernist 12:07, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it is clear that everyone involved in this situation has acted in good faith according to his or her understanding of the situation and what is best for the project. Nonetheless, the net effect was a very serious WP:BITE violation against a good-faith new editor with valuable information to offer, and I hope this sort of thing can be handled very differently in the future. Newyorkbrad 12:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure mass reversion by Modernist of the links added by Aaa intern and deleted by Hu12 is the answer. The Spam policy is clear, even if Hu12's actions were a bit bitey. Katr67 20:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I've restored the links. The Archives of American Art should be communicated with by you guys. Ty - Modernist 20:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I also am not sure if the mass reversion by User:Modernist is a good answer. I hope that we all do understand, that we are trying to write an encyclopedia here, not a linkfarm.  You say that the mass linkadditions of good, on topic links is OK (even with a conflict of interest, then what witholds a museum to add en-masse external links to a number of pages.  Apparently that is all OK, even without discussion.  So all car-musea can add their link to the external links sections of all pages about cars .. and all these pages can be turned into linkfarms (etc. etc.).  WP:SPAMHOLE is that way.  --Dirk Beetstra T  C 23:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Modernists revisions seem to be independent of consensus and is one that contradicts Wikipedia policy. Perhaps we should demote policies and guidelines in place preventing such behavior to essays? Perhaps We should rethink the entire purpose of wikipedia and allow sites like Overstock.com/WordBomb/Judd Bagley pursue their own adgenda by allowing mass additions to their various products to each article that is related to shoes, shirts and electronics. Surely this would ad value to the reader. "I went to wikipedia and saved 10% on an Ipod"...LOL... seriously. Overstock.com and aaa.si may be fundamentally different, however the behavior we are condoning is the same. Aaa intern has made no attempts to communicate in any of the multitude of discussions that have taken place. Bite or not, the Duck test needs also considered.--Hu12 05:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Modernist is an established editor with significant contributions to art-related articles and there is no indication he has a COI here, so he is entitled to make an editorial decision that these links have added value and should be kept. This is open to challenge as with any editorial decision. A good solution has already been found in an identical situation with User:VAwebteam (from V&A Museum), namely to set up a mini-project so that they could work with other editors to assess each proposed EL. This was very successful and they were fully co-operative.  See their user and talk pages for more details. Obviously when a major institution participates in wikipedia, we don't want to chew them out.  That said, we can't allow mass unsupervised insertion of links either.  Careful dialogue is the way forward in such cases. See also Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts/Infoart articles, where an editor, Infoart,  associated with the Saatchi Gallery had created over 150 articles on artists associated with that gallery. Rather than mass speedy deletes, a team of editors worked with him and attended to each article, with the final result of the addition of much useful content to the project. Tyrenius 13:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The Archives of American art is an important source of valuable and valid information for visual arts articles. I actually thought there was a mixed opinion about the links with four or five editors including an administrator or two in favor of restoring the links. I acted with the spirit of WP:AGF and WP:UCS, if I restored the links too hastily - (it was a lot of work) I apologize if I offended anyone, that was not my intention. I think the links add value and valuable information to the encyclopedia. Modernist 13:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

If the Archives of American art is so important of a source for visual arts articles, then why not endorse it as such at WikiProject Visual arts. Perhaps the proper approach should be incorporating a template approved by the project in to articles. Modernist said himself, "there have been several lengthy debates about spamming behavior by representatives of libraries, archives, what-have-you, but no consensus so far. We really need to develop a policy on this", there is a policy, its located @ WP:NOT. The External links policy on Advertising and conflicts of interest states You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked, which is in line with the conflict of interest guidelines. I fail to understand how actions of an obvious WP:SPA spam account who has not participated in any of these discussions, has no edits outside of spamming links(77 in less than two hours, 116 in total) to his own organization, have support for his behavior by established editors. I can undrstand if there was participation/clarification by Aaa intern, however the silence is deffening, telling and quite indicitive in pattern and action of the thousands of spam accounts seeking traffic from wikipedia we see @ Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam. As it stands should we allow (a new user) to freely conduct public relations and marketing via the encyclopedia also?. I appreciate Tyrenius' examples they are very helpful and I know how much work goes into cleanup, Modernist, its work, alot of work.--Hu12 16:16, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, it was me who mentioned the other discussions. I realize we have a policy, but this comes up so often, that the policy needs to contain a very clear librarian clause. Katr67 16:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with User:Modernist. The links enrich the articles by connecting them to an unimpeachable, public, institutional, non-commercial, and thoroughly accredited source. Regardless of the fact that the links may have been added by some automatic means, they should remain, as welcome and legitimate sources of information. MdArtLover 18:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd endorse Tyrenius's comments above. The V&A approach has worked, as the European Library one earlier really did not, because the COI user there was not prepared to do things the WP way. I'd add that modern, still in copyright, artists present special problems as it is often impossible to get the images needed onto WP because of copyright. So good external links are especially useful. Johnbod 19:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Funkynusayri
User Funkynusayri is insistently using the n word on the talk page at Talk:Negroid. I think his excessive use of the term is inappropriate. Furthermore he deliberately misspelling my username, I don't know why. Muntuwandi 21:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I've asked him to not call you "Mutu" anymore. As to use of the "n word", there's nothing inappropriate about this as long as he is not using it as an insult - it seems he's referring to the article nigger itself, and there's nothing wrong with calling an article by its name. Remember, Wikipedia isn't censored. Picaroon (t) 21:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * As I've already explained, I've referred to the article by the name "Nigger" itself every time I've used it. So I don't see the problem at all, unless the article itself gets changed to "N Word". I think this whole thing is extremely silly.

I quote, from here, in italics:

''Fourdee was blocked by Jimbo Wales himself? Are you sure about that? Anyway, there is an actual Nigger article, I don't see you complaining about that. If that isn't deleted, there's no reason to delete this one, if the justification is that it is almost as bad as having the "Nigger" article. Why use this article as a "proxy for the N word", when that word already has its own page? Your logic is quite flawed, reeks of desperacy.'' Funkynusayri 18:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

''Please Funkynusayri, try not to turn this page into a shock site, if you do I will have to report you. This is the intent that I was talking about. Yes Fourdee was blocked by Jimbo. So for others interested in continuing being a wikipedians, should take note that wikipedia is not stormfront, a place for xenophobic bashing. It is a resource for education and an encyclopedia.'' Muntuwandi 18:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

''What the heck are you talking about? "Shock site"? There is an article by the name Nigger here on Wikipedia. I'm referring to that.'' Funkynusayri 18:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Odd.

As for "Mutu", I called him that when we were still on good terms, and he didn't seem to mind at all back then. So I should stop saying it now just because he has ceased to like me? Also, I should maybe mention that he has manipulated my messages a couple of times, I don't know whether it is an offense or not, but it is highly annoying and inappropriate, far worse than my "offenses", if I may utter my own opinion.

Watch: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ANegroid&diff=155883725&oldid=155882803

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ANegroid&diff=155767819&oldid=155753230

Funkynusayri 18:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The replacement of your loving nickname for him with his user name is appropriate, the censorship of "nigger" is not. I'll ask him to stop. Picaroon (t) 18:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * He himself has referred to me as simply "Funky" on numerous occasions (take a look at that same talk page, for example), I had no problem with that, so I smell hypocrisy. If I get threatened here for referring to him by a nickname, I have an equal right to complain about him doing the same. Funkynusayri 18:45, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly, you have no problem with that nickname. If you desire him to stop calling you that, tell him so. Picaroon (t) 18:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's say that then, if he wants to keep calling me Funky, I'll keep calling him Mutu. Or well, let's see if he agrees with me just calling him "Muntu" from now on, he proposed that himself. Funkynusayri 19:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Scientology deleted
Scientology was deleted, but the deletion logs show it should still exist. See all logs for Scientology and all logs for HAGGER???????????????????. Anyhow, can someone resurrect this? Thanks. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  03:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * All is ok. A vandal moved Scientology to the HAGGER??????.... page. It's been fixed. Flyguy649 talk contribs 03:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

What does "HAGGER" mean, anyhow? Burntsauce 16:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Haggar is how Hagrid (in the Harry Potter Novels) is refered to by is 1/2 brother Grawp. --Rocksanddirt 19:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Bmedley Sutler
has recently been blocked for disrupting the project. He, once again, states that one of his goals on Wikipedia is to "out" people he considers right wing. In the second link, he invites another editor to try homosexual sex. I really don't have a problem with gays, but that sort of language is in extremely poor taste. A recent ANI discussion showed that the community is running out of options for improving Bmedley's behavior (see here). I believe that Bmedley should be blocked for a lenghty period of time (perhaps indefinitely). Pablo  Talk  |  Contributions  05:10, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Discussions about long-term resolutions should be had on Community sanction noticeboard. -- Avi 05:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I came to the noticeboard to post regarding this edit of Bmedley [] - Clearly taunting and he's been blocked for it before. I cant say I'm suprised to see he's been alerted on for other behavior already.  Dman727 05:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * "Try it. You'll like it." That is really grossly inappropriate. Any language of that sort wherever it be heterosexual, homosexual, pansexual, or Furry is unacceptable. In a workplace that would be considered sexual harassment, and considering this user's habit of pushing it to the limit always there should be consequences. Seriously. --MichaelLinnear 05:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I found this sentence especially disgusting, he's bringing children into it and promoting pedophilia - "Its okay, (IMO) to have a wife and kids and enjoy some Gay sex now and then!"[[[]] Dman727 05:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No he's talking about closet cases who have a family to keep up the facade for whatever reason. I'm sure that's what he meant. --MichaelLinnear —Preceding unsigned comment added by MichaelLinnear (talk • contribs) 05:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC) where did the time stamp go? temporal shock for the fucking win
 * Michael, your right. I parsed that sentence wrong.  At least I think that you are right. Even with the clarification, I really find these kind of posts appalling. Dman727 05:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * User:DHeyward is Wikistalking <B>me</B> He is following me around and (IMO) trying to provoke me. He showed up on an article I am active on for months Western_Hemisphere_Institute_for_Security_Cooperation that he had <B>never</B> edited, <B> right after</B> my block ednded, made a 'troll edit' and then erased my message to him aasking him not to troll the article. The fact that he wont communicate about this issue which I posted to him in good faith and his troll edit to the article shows that he lacked good faith intentions on this article and is just trying to provoke me (IMO). There are millions of articles on Wiki. Could you ask him to leave me alone  and find another article? IMO his only object is to haunt me and get me to bite. I have now decided to avoid certain articles like Larry Craig so I wont be provoked. I am staying away from Crockspots favorite articles as much as I can. And I have since my block!  And now I go to an article that I have been editing for months and Dheyward Wikistalks me there and haunts me and provkes me. <B>Please</B> get him to stop and leave me be on that article. Thanks. <B> Update</B> That was a few days ago. Then I ask someone in the LBGT community to mentor me, and [[User:DHeyward] Wikistalks my edits again  and teams up with one of his RW friends (who are <B> all </B> showing up now because they're a <B>team</B> (I won't say Cabal!) to talk about his Wikistalking. After my block I <B>completely</B> avoided any article any of <B>them</B> work on, and Dheyward followed me to <B>bait</B> me, as many say is their plan. Now they will all pile on. This organized RW harrassment from the same group of  approx 6 editors must stop! Please, if they leave me alone, Like I tried to do them there will be no problems! [[User:Bmedley Sutler|<font color="#000000">•smedley ]]<font color="#CC00CC">Δ <font color="#CC0000">butler•  05:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You are all interested in the same topics, American foreign policy, politics, and everything involving the nebulous Allegations of state terrorism by the United States article. Why is it all a surprise when you meet each other? --MichaelLinnear 05:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Judging by your asking them to have gay sex, your attempt to leave them alone is unsuccessful. I would like to hear you defend your actions, instead of trying to change the subject to other editors (as you always do).  Also, please quit reducing this to a "left vs. right" thing; it is not about political affiliation.   Pablo   Talk  |  Contributions  05:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I've seen this user's name mentioned far to much here on AN/I in recent months. Unfortunately Bmeldey's actions have shown a habitual use of incivility, harassment, personal attacks, edit warring and disruption. I have decided that, considering past discussions on this issue (where the possibility of indef blocking was specifically brought up), it is reasonable to say that the community's patience has been "exhausted". The user has been talked to, by several users on several occasions about this conduct and still actively refuses to stop it. Hence I have decided to indefinitely block the user. I want to remind all of you that indefinitely blocked does not mean infinitely blocked. I specifically left a note on the block log saying that the user should be unblocked if he agrees to cease all such conduct and to abide by established wikipedia policy. Anyone can feel free to discuss my block below.--Jersey Devil 05:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with your consclusions on Bmedley's behavior, and I support the block.  Pablo   Talk  |  Contributions  05:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I would have liked to have seen mentorship, which he agreed to yesterday, tried first. &larr;Ben B4 05:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, but I think the operating word for Bmedley was incorrigible. --MichaelLinnear 06:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong support of this block. I'd intended to comment (pre edit conflict), "I believe we're being trolled."Proabivouac 06:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It appears that Bmedley Sutler has retired.  Pablo   Talk  |  Contributions  06:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * He is angry at this point which explains his most recent edits. I'm going to wait until he cools down a bit to listen to his response. I ask that people be respectful and not try to egg him on below this point.--Jersey Devil 06:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * He responded, and once again has used his two favorite defenses (neither of which are legitimate): accusing his opposition of being "right wing" and changing the subject to other editors.  Pablo   Talk  |  Contributions  06:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to endorse Jersey's actions here. I've spoken up for him once or twice in the past, but the edits posted in this thread are unacceptable in pretty much any context. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 20:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

As Bmedley Sutler has (almost certainly falsely) stated that English is not his first language, I asked him what it was. I reproduce his response in full:
 * "That is private. Don't try and 'out' me by asking these personal questions especially now that I have caught the USMIL and BUSHGOV in 100% proofed lies. Outing of this type is not allowable on Wiki, and I <B>will</B> follow up on it. I consider this a harrassment."Proabivouac 07:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That response is, of course, ridiculous considering that Bmedley Sutler has tried to out the supposed sexual orientation of several individuals, while maintaining that his first language is private.  Pablo   Talk  |  Contributions  07:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * When it gets to the point where good will and AGF cease being effective it is often time for something else. (( 1 == 2 ) ? ((' Stop ') : ('<font color="Green">Go ')) 14:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

My God, that block log is genormous. After looking at the guy's talk page, I honestly think this should an infinite community ban. It's obvious others have had saintlike patience with him--enough is enough. Ban. Blueboy96 19:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If he's retired, then we've done with him. Sexual harassment is totally unacceptable, and this user has shown no ability to improve his behavior, or even understand what is inappropriate about it.  --19:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd be inclined to agree, but guys with his profile usually have a hamperful of smelly socks ... I was suggesting a ban as a preemptive measure. Judging by the fact that he's apparently a meatpuppet (at the very least) of a banned user, my hunch was right. Blueboy96 20:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

In this edit summary, Bmedley admits that he is a sock of User:Fairness And Accuracy For All, who was banned for a year and recently had his ban reset. Perhaps an extension of FAAFA's block to indefinite would be appropriate. Pablo  Talk  |  Contributions  20:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's been obvious for some time that he's FAAFA; e.g.:
 * Republicans, gay sex and meth:
 * "Busheep"
 * He'll be back either way, and, if history is any guide, we'll have to go through the entire process again. Perhaps he'll be able to sink a few more RfA's, maybe start an arbitration case, who knows?Proabivouac 20:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, indef indeed. Laughing in the community's face like that?  He's banned himself, I think.  Blueboy96 20:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Should any action be taken regarding his "sinking" of the RfA (User:Crockspot's, I assume)? It's kind of unfair that the RfA process was sabotaged by a meatpuppet who was finally "sunk" himself for, among other things, the very type of "outing" behavior that sunk the RfA.  BmS's ad nauseum quoting of one flip comment from Conservative Underground as "proof" of Crockspot's homophobia really did a lot of damage; BmS even used that remark to accuse me of being gay, which I neither confirm nor deny, then turned around and say, "Well, Crockspot said it!"  It doesn't seem right that such sabotage should go uncorrected, but I don't know that there's any way to correct it except to try the RfA again. Calbaer 22:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well he has now pretty much admitted that he let the banned user FAFFA use his account for edits. By the way, about 50% of my edits were FAFFAs who would log into my user, he thought I might only last 1 week, and we went 2 months! Sinking that racist homophobes RFA is our proudest moment! Toodles which leads me to say that though I was open to unblocking initially (had he made a commitment to change his ways) now the block will stay.--Jersey Devil 22:48, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm opening a discussion of FAFFA's fate at WP:CN ... just so it won't get lost here. Blueboy96 22:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see the need. Bmedley is indef blocked. I believe FAAFA is banned already. If he comes back it will simply be an abusive sockpuppet, and we can just block him indefinitely. There's no real need for CN on Bmedley. &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Denny Crane.  23:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * He's only banned for one year, but given what's been revealed today, I really think it ought to be ndef. Discussion is here.Blueboy96 23:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the anti-homosexual comment on his user talk, as well as redacted something that appeared to be an outing of an editor's real name (I didn't delete the edit because I wasn't sure). &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Denny Crane.  22:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * point of order, the above redaction of the editors real name was actually not. See . As it is, his user talk is blanked and redirected to his user page, so that's a moot point. &rArr;  <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Denny Crane.  01:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Indefinite block of User:Gaby de wilde
After telling this user to desist soapboxing on the talk page for the 9/11 article, I retired to bed. Apparently, in the interim, he was blocked for harassment and sockpuppetry by another admin. Though I had nothing to do with this block, he has taken it upon himself to send me a number of harassing emails, despite my polite responses. Given that he has made no substantive contributions to the project, and he already has multiple blocks for harassment and personal attacks, I have therefore indefinitely blocked his account, and his email privileges, until such time as he decides to comport himself in a reasonable fashion. Since his talk page is protected for the duration of his previous block, I'm inviting external review by other admins. Unblock, or shorten duration, if you feel this was excessive. --Haemo 16:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I have also received a harrassing e-mail. Though I blocked him for one week, I support the indef block. Rklawton 17:26, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I am somewhat involved - made previous blocks (for harassment, attacks) and the sockpuppetry block for using an IP to repost soapboxery. I would have blocked indef at another incidence of harassment, trolling, POV pushing, etc. The emails are just that. Mr.  Z- man  17:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I am completely uninvolved, and I support the block for the reasons given. (( 1 == 2 ) ? ((' Stop ') : ('<font color="Green">Go ')) 17:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yup... if anything, probably overdue. Good block. MastCell Talk 17:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not an admin but I did have experience of trying to prevent Gaby from de-railing the 9/11 Talk page. I'm grateful for any reduction in disruption there. Sheffield Steel talkersstalkers 18:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

unjustified page reversion User:goethean
I posted a merge proposal for Quadrupel on 25 July. There was a discussion Talk:Brouwerij_de_Koningshoeven with the majority (3-1) in favour of the merge (as the one proposing the merge, I am including myself in the vote). Yesterday, user:goethean, voted against this merge, but instead of giving reasons against the merge, he made a personal attack against me and another user. Even assuming his vote was valid, the vote was still 3-2, so this morning, I completed the merge. This afternoon he reverted it. He has made personal attacks against me a number of times. Mikebe 17:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * In case anyone looks into this incident, I would like to make a few points. User:Mikebe has attempted to delete the article by fiat previously, and I told him to take it to articles for deletion. Apparently, he doesn't want to do so. So he proposed a merge, closed it, and then merged one well-referenced article (Quadrupel) into a footnote of another article, deleting most of the well-referenced material. I again suggest that if Mikebe wants to delete the article, he take it to articles for deletion. I would also add that his proposal to merge a beer type article into a brewery article is prima facie absurd. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 19:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

AlptaBot
In its effort to update fn/fnb templates, the bot is wreaking havoc on at least a few articles where the standard template is used for source citations and fn/fnb is used for textual amplifications--often, for clarity and utility, within the body of the article, rather than as endnotes. The conversion performed by the bot confuses the numbering and layout. Here are the four examples I am tracking where the bot has repeatedly caused this problem (in order of severity): English plural, major film studio, Hollywood blacklist, and film noir.—DCGeist 18:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Bot blocked. You are correct in that the bot was causing harm on at least a few pages.  Please start a dialog with the bot's owner on getting this straightened out.  Any admin is welcome to unblock once the owner has dealt with the problems. - TexasAndroid 18:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I too have had problems with this bot, some seemingly different from DCGeist's, and some obviously the same. I've documented them more fully here on Alpta's talk page. In brief, the additional problem is that in articles where a single footnote is referenced several times, the numbering goes all awry. (This version is a case in point. It includes a link to a note, [8], despite there being only 7 notes in total: four amplifications and three citations.)  I've reverted the affected edits that have crossed my watchlist. — ras52 22:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I too had problems with it in the Kargil War page and had to revert it because it couldn't distinguish between 2 types of notes and the internal link to the note was removed (reverse linking did work though). Idleguy 03:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Xenubox
Account indef blocked.LessHeard vanU 20:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a vandalism-only account that's posting "humorous" additions to pages such as Scientology. It's obviously a user who knows what they're doing (they created an extensive infobox) so I'm not sure that warnings are necessary (although several have been given). I think it's mop and hammer time. Sheffield Steel talkersstalkers 19:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Morton Christopher and possible sockpuppetry
The userpage of User:Morton Christopher is an exact duplicate of that of User:Rutherfordjigsaw, and I noticed that both have voted keep on the AFD of List of traps in the Saw film series. I haven't checked other edits too far, but I suspect we're dealing with a sockpuppet (Rutherford being the original). Am I reporting this in the right place? --Lenin and McCarthy |  (Complain here) 20:31, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks it. GDonato (talk) 21:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It looks like Morton Christopher copied Rutherfordjigsaw's userpage to me. Rutherfordjigsaw has been here almost a year, and surely after a year you'd know the ins and outs of wikipedia well enough to come up with a much less obvious sockpuppet than that. If you think there is problematic behavior, I'd file an request for checkuser. AniMate 04:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Sikandros Removing Material from Hassan ibn Ali
Sikandros has been removing cited, scholarly material from the Hassan ibn Ali page because he doesn't like it. He's now begun to refer to the material itself as vandalism. I've made note of it on his userpage but he's only responded angrily. Elijahmeeks 21:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

one question
dear sycops and users i wish you ask i simple question .is it alowed to put such photo in english wikipeida or not?link this photo?--mardetanha 22:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * actully i mean to ask is it normal to put it in melody max article or with obsenity criteia it is not allowed?--mardetanha 22:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There aren't any obscenity criteria - Wikipedia is not censored. However, were a new article on Melody Max to be created (the old one was deleted per Articles for deletion/Melody Max two days ago), the image would be disallowed for a different reason: it does not meet the non-free content criteria. Hope this helps. Picaroon (t) 22:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * as i am using wiki for a long time i haven't seen such nude photo in english wiki (photo not a drawing or ...).so will u alow put such photo in english wiki or not?--mardetanha 22:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There are no obscenity laws on Wikipedia. Images uploaded to the Wikimedia servers do not conform to real world or local laws on obscenity. This image is allowed under that bare minimum. However, if you're going to write a new article on Melody Max, that image cannot be used on that article because we do not accept copyrighted images of people to illustrate what they look like in articles if they are still alive.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龍 ) 23:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * thank for your quick replys. actully the problems back on artice in fawiki which it goes aroud melody max.so i decide to refer to english wiki. though i could't find any photo like that in english wiki!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mardetanha (talk • contribs) 23:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia isn't censored. Use your editorial judgment when evaluating image usage like this. The Manual of Style states:
 * Words and images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Wikipedia readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available. Including information about offensive material is part of Wikipedia's encyclopedic mission; being offensive is not.


 * In this case, the image is copyrighted and I don't see a valid fair-use argument. So don't use it.


 * As an aside, many wikipedians think pictures of men sucking their own wieners is just fine. --Duk 23:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

thanks--mardetanha 00:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

User talk:Witmeall
Could somebody please speedy delete the pyramid scheme at User talk:Witmeall and block the User? Corvus cornix 23:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * User:DarkFalls deleted the page, and I gave the user a stern warning. We'll see whether they repeat it or not.  bibliomaniac 1 5  Two years of trouble and general madness 23:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Was I not supposed to block then?— Ryūlóng ( 竜龍 ) 23:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * A conflicting series of events... I already declined a block on AIV but... --<font face="Harlow Solid Italic" color="black">DarkFalls talk 23:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * OK. I guess if they do it again, I can bring it up at AIV again.  Thanks.  :)  Corvus cornix 23:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * See above, Ryulong just blocked them... Also, it's more of a copyvio than anything else... --<font face="Harlow Solid Italic" color="black">DarkFalls talk 23:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, yeah, I figured it was a copyvio, but I thought getting it off the page was the best way to go, and db-ad worked. As did my appeal here. :)  Corvus cornix 23:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Atomic Bombings
This article, Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki, was recently removed from full protection. It is tagged as a controversial article. Several things have happened:

Anonymous IP's have made a couple of poor edits, and one vandalism edit. An established editor created a new page out of a subsection, and deleted the subsection.

Is it possible to block only anonymous IPs and new accounts? The article creation and section deletion was done "unliaterally" (editor's words) without any discussion, so I undid it. (Also, I don't agree with it.) But I don't know how to delete the page the editor created (or if that is proper). So right now, there is duplicate text: the section which I resored and the article the editor created out of the section. I'm not sure what to do about it. Bsharvy 23:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * We have something called "semi-protection" which prohibits anonymous editors and newly created accounts from editing pages. See WP:PROT for more. If you want to request semi-protection, you need to go through the WP:RPP. As for the article, you can always prod the article. And if that fails, take it to WP:AFD. I do not believe it qualifies for any speedy criteria. If you convince the article's creator that the spinout isn't necessary, then the article meets G7. Hope this helps.-Andrew c [talk] 00:59, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:BatWave
...has been replacing various images with Image:0906_vanessa_hudgens_nude.jpg. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dcfleck (talk • contribs) 23:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's not good. Image deleted, editor blocked. Currently thinking about how best to admonish the uploader, who seems to be a good faith editor. Picaroon (t) 00:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why you think that, as all of this user's contribs appear to be adding in this one image. --Dcfleck 00:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * BatWave, who I already said I blocked, was not the uploader. was. Picaroon (t) 00:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, understand now. Thanks. --12.226.239.122 02:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, BatWave is a checkuser-confirmed sockpuppet of KingMorpheus. I've asked for an explanation. Thatcher131 03:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I knew that name looked familiar, see

Home-born vandal
A user has vandalized Wikipedia over and over again! His name is Gavrun. He still doesn’t stop, you should see how many messages are on his talk page! I request his blocked forever! Please! He’s making matters worse!--Angel David 00:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What you should do is submit a report to WP:AIV and tell them what he did. An admin can then decide what to do. Thanks! Ne ra n e i   (talk) 00:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * First of all, as Neranei points out, the proper place to report vandalism is WP:AIV (and you have to make sure the person has been given a final warning and vandalized past that final warning). Also note, the user in question WAS blocked yesterday for 31 hours, see the block log. If the user returns after the block and continues with the disruptive editing, then we can consider longer blocks. I'm confused why you say "he's making matters worse" because he hasn't edited since his block yesterday.-Andrew c [talk] 00:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: That's the face of countless Wikipedia vandals on a day-to-day basis. No need to fret or get too worried.  As far as over and over, 1 days worth of vandalism isn't really considered that.  Don't get me wrong, vandals are easily blocked within minutes when they vandalize that blatantly.  If he pops up again, just take the advice of others and report to AIV asap.<b style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:purple;">¤~Persian Poet Gal</b> <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  01:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Mhart54com
User blocked for 24 hrs.  <font color="#084C9E">Mi <font color="#4682b4">r <font color="#6495ED">a <font color="#4682b4">n <font color="#084C9E">da 

I remember there being a specific noticeboard for this, but I can't seem to track it down. I've reported this guy up to uw-npa4, yet he persists in throwing insults. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That's not cute. --Haemo 02:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Romanianization 'see also' section
Please someone put back those links as I don't want to break the three revert rule. I stated my case at User:Tankred's and User:Dahn's talk page, but I got no answer. I tried to ask questions on the article's talk page too, but it somehow won't display them. Romanianization is a form of discrimination connected to the Treaty of Trianon just like the links that I'd like to provide. I think they should be included there, so the reader gets an idea of the whole concept. Squash Racket 03:59, 7 September 2007 (UTC) (copied here from Administrators' Noticeboard, more appropriate here)

Personal complaints on Newsvine article
I am having trouble with an anonymous user who continues to make edits like this one to the Newsvine article. I've reverted the edits because the user is clearly just using Wikipedia as a soapbox. After numerous reversions, I even opened up a discussion on the talk page, to no avail. Is there something that can be done to take care of this situation? – Mipadi 15:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Have you tried talking to the user? ˉˉanetode╦╩ 16:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Judging by at least one of Mipadi's edit comments, I think there is no shortage of language here. Sheffield Steel talkersstalkers 23:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * User is an anonymous IP. In my experience, such users don't reply to comments on talk pages. – Mipadi 16:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * People using anonymous IPs are editors, much like me and you. Getting angry and edit warring with other editors only serves to create a hostile environment which could result in both parties being blocked. While no one will advocate for a submissive attitude to tendentious editing, a little courtesy and communication is not much to ask for. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 08:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Occupations of Latvia
The article Occupations of Latvia was placed on article probation by Requests for arbitration/Occupation of Latvia and it could use some outside comments. The major outstanding issues from the arbitration case still have not been resolved. There are actually 3 occupation periods—by the Soviets 1939-1941, Nazi Germany 1941-1944, and the period of Sovietization 1944-1991. The outstanding issues are, (1) should the article be split into three to cover the three periods or kept as one, and (2) is "occupation" an appropriate title to describe the period of 1944-1991 (Latvian SSR).

Right now there is a particularly silly argument being made by two editors that since a number of books they have found deal with all three periods together, it would be original research to divide the 1939-1991 time period into 3 articles. As an admin answering a request at WP:AE I have tried to point out that splitting the article is a matter of editorial judgement and would violate no policies; I have pointed out that the books are probably divided into chapters (they are too obscure for google scholar), and that there is no similar problem in splitting articles related to other historical topics. Since this article is under probation. allowing disruptive users to be banned, I think a little more admin attention and comment would be helpful. Thatcher131 21:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd like to point out that the 4 books were cited to refute the main argument for splitting the article: that the 3 periods are unrelated and are tendatiously presented together in order to synthesize something that is not present in the original sources. These books (two available at Amazon Books ,) advance the position that the three occupations are inter-related and the period can only be properly understood when discussed together. The story of the Baltics is about how they fell prey to two cooperating totalitarian regimes in partnership (later dissolved), and the exploitation by the Nazis of Soviet atrocities for their propaganda and the exploitation by the Soviets of Nazi atrocities for their propaganda; the historical consequences and the continued misrepresentation of those consequences. Martintg 05:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Its very simple really. There are event articles and historic articles. Each of the events above are article-worthy. No one questions that really. What is not legitimate is to arbitrary paste separate events under a tendentious title to push one's political agenda.

There is a way to have articles devoted to a series of events that cover a country's history over a significant period of time. Such articles are called "History articles" and should be neutrally called  History of Country (Year1-Year2) . If one, however, does not want a history but wants its POV presentation, one starts from a title with a skewed lead section being a second next important step. This is exactly what we've got here. --Irpen 09:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think I understand, you mean a country's sequence of history sub-articles should be named like  History of Country (Year1-Year2) , just like it's done in History of Russia? :) Seriously, how can someone continue to claim a series of events are unrelated and are tendatiously presented together, when there are published sources that do consider these events are related and presents them together. Seems your issue is with these sources, if so you should consider writing a paper and having it published in a journal. Then your view that this is illegitimate would carry more weight. Martintg 10:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

It has already been mentioned that the history of latvia 1940 - 1991 is not correct term. The article analyzes Latvia under occupation and events related to that. As it is very important part of Latvian history. For the same reasons why are there articles like WWII anyway? The world war II consisted of many different events. But they all came together in the concept of WWII. This article brings together the event of Latvia being under occupation and links to subevents through.

It might be hard to understand for people who don't know much about Latvian history but in short it is:


 * 1) Latvia declared independece and became republic.
 * 2) Latvia was occupied by Soviet Union.
 * 3) Latvia was taken from Soviet Union (not from Latvia) by Nazi Germany.
 * 4) Latvia was retaken from Nazi Germany (not from Latvia) by Soviet Union.
 * 5) Latvia became free from Soviet Union and redeclared independence.

Latvia was taken in 1940 and didn't have nothing to say about the matters until 1991 when together with collapse of USSR it regained it's independence. So there is clear continuity here. Suva 10:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It might help for people to see History of Latvia. This gives a good overview. Blueboar 15:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Following the Russian Revolution, every village of the former Russian Empire declared independence and some even succeeded in gaining a measure of international recognition (e.g., Don Cossack Republic). Of a hundred plus post-imperial polities, Latvia did the most to impose Bolshevism on Russia (see Latvian Riflemen). The official position of the Russian Federation was voiced by Pres. Putin: "Now, on the subject of occupation. As I see it, in 1918, Russia and Germany concluded a deal that was sealed in the Brest-Litovsk Peace Treaty, under which Russia handed over part of its territories to German control. This marked the beginning of Estonian/Latvian statehood. In 1939, Russia and Germany concluded another deal and Germany handed these territories back to Russia. In 1939, they were absorbed into the Soviet Union. Let us not talk now about whether this was good or bad. This is part of history". Amen. --Ghirla-трёп- 06:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Not sure what your point is... Except maybe you and mr. Putin should familiarize yourself with the terms of "Annexation of region" and "Occupation of Internationally recognized republic". Suva 12:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Admin Radiant!
A conflict between admin and users  and  began over a proposal for a gender neutral guideline. When the conflict first surfaced, at Radiant!'s specific request I provided an example of the past issues to Radiant!, with diffs. Radiant! has taken this conflict to the Community sanction board (subsequently withdrawn), asking for sanction against a long-standing editor with a clean record, here to AN/I (request feedback above on gender neutrality, where it was mischaracterized) and in two different threads to Wikiquette alerts (where Tony1's comments were also mischaracterized). Tony1 was warned (templated no less) and Radiant! was advised to cool off and review his own part in the conflict. Radiant! has mischaracterized other poster's content, for example posting to my talk page that I had labeled Pmanderson "as an evil disruptive nasty person". I removed that from my talk page (I believe that's a first for me) because of the mischaracterization. Because I answered a direct request to explain the conflict, and did so with diffs, Radiant! has now threatened me with a block, although I've committed nothing remotely close to a blockable offense. I suggest that Radiant! needs to remove him/herself from this conflict in which he finds himself personally involved, and not be threatening to use admin tools to further the conflict. Because I removed the mischaracterization from my talk page, and Radiant! removed my posts from his/her talk page, I have summarized the conversation, with all diffs, at User:SandyGeorgia/RaToPm issue. I am concerned that Radiant! has several times mischaracterized other editors' content, has threatened me with a block because I responded to a request and provided diffs, and appears to be personally invested in this conflict. I'm asking uninvolved admins to step in and oversee the ongoing conflict in the editing of Wiki's manual of style, including numbers and links, as well as the issues at the gender neutrality proposal, and to assure there is no misuse of admin tools to further one version. As an admin, Radiant! has not worked to de-escalate the conflict, which is now spreading, partly because of the unnecessary esclation due to Radiant!'s personal involvement. Thanks, Sandy Georgia (Talk) 13:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a needlessly exaggerated issue. Simply put, PManderson made some WP:BOLD changes to a guideline page. These changes appear to be minor, and the primary reason that people object is because "it has not been discussed properly" . What these people need to understand is that it is quite acceptable to edit pages, even guidelines, without requiring lengthy discussions beforehand, and that it is inappropriate to throw around accusations of disruption, and terms like Nazi.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  13:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, the original issues were minor in relation to what this has become; the bigger issue now is you threatening to use admin tools inappropriately, in this case, because I responded to your request with only one example of diffs. You are personally vested in this conflict and threatening to use admin tools to further your version; outside admin oversight is needed.  You are also now harassing continuing to post to my talk page, although I've politely asked you to refrain from posting there.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 14:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Enough. Sandy, while threatening you with a block was certainly inappropriate, I don't think Radiant's comments at your Talk page constitute harassment. Everyone needs to cool off here. You are both, of course, welcome to remove anything you're not interested in reading or responding to; but this sort of edit summary is really, really pushing it, Radiant. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 14:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Changed word "harassing" above to "continuing to post to", thanks for pointing that out, Fvasconcellos. Just because I may *feel* harassed doesn't mean I am :-) Sandy Georgia (Talk) 14:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd like to note that I am in no way an uninvolved party here, as I've interacted extensively with Sandy and Tony in the past and wandered into this the day before yesterday while responding t an RFPP request. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 14:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Excuse me? First, standard civility warnings are not "threatening people with blocks". Sandy is construing this as if I said "I will block you if you don't do what I say", which is an outrageous falsehood. Second, Sandy made a long post on my talk page where she accused PMA of disruption. I investigated, and concluded it was biased and misguided, and explained on her talk page that editing a guideline is not a big deal. She responded with personal attacks and accusations of harassment, and demanded that I stop using her talk page. If, as you claim, you are "in no way an uninvolved party here", you shouldn't take sides as obviously as you're doing here.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  14:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Mischaracterizations. Personal attacks?  Radiant! you are vested in a personal conflict; please cool off on this entire matter and stop escalating it with mischaracterization. Step back and look at your part in this, as advised at Wikiquette alerts. Let other admins handle the pages you are involved with.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 14:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * (outdent and edit conflict with Sandy) Everyone, please: I'm willing to cool it, and I hope others here are as well. I'm sorry to Radiant for my unmeasured comments yesterday (which I've struck out), and in return I ask that he approach interactions in a calmer manner. This is making WP very unpleasant for everyone, and I want an end to it. We still have to fight through the GNL issue, and frankly, it's all too venomous. Can we all agree to disagree in a less confrontational manner? From a sysop, I'm expecting assistance in calming others, whereas I'm finding the opposite. Please use your skills at conflict resolution rather than inflaming what is already a heated situation at GNL and other places, Radiant. Tony 14:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It is interesting that you apologize for unmeasured comments (most of which you have not, in fact, struck out) and in the same breath make more unmeasured comments. For several days I have been trying to get through to both of you that no, editing a guideline is not the big deal you make it out to be, and as a result I get shouted at and called names. Consider that, then ask yourself who is escalating what.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  14:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Tell me where they are, and I'll strike them now. Manderson's edits are often poorly written and controversial; as such, they require discussion (indeed consensus where they're significant changes in policy) on the talk page. That is what the template says at the top of every MOS. It causes tension among the folks at these policy pages (not just me) and makes the page look unstable when reverts are necessary. It's destabilising to a consensus-driven culture. But I really don't want a full-on war right here about this. Can we take the emotion out? Tony 14:53, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please do tell how referring to users as "Mandy" and "Radio" can be anything other than remarkably childish. Anyway, the point is that, for guidelines or indeed any page, you should talk about content rather than process. "This has not been properly discussed" is never an argument, unless you specify what you want to discuss - otherwise, what is there to discuss? Don't say "people might object to this" without specifying what the objections actually are.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  15:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh heck, man: loosen up. It was light-hearted. And light-hearted is in alarmingly short supply on this page. Tony 01:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for an example where Radiant threatened to personally block anyone for anything. Or any other threat to abuse sysop tools in any way. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * "I must point out that if you persist in attacking PMAnderson, or assisting Tony in his childish antics that amount to the same, you may be blocked from editing." Not only does he threaten a block and mention "attacks" that never happened (I responded to his request with diffs), he warns me not to assist Tony, whatever that means. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 15:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * People who make personal attacks may be blocked from editing. That's not new, that's policy.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  15:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That's right. And answering your request for an example, with diffs and my interpretation of them, discussing the edits and how they destabilize MOS, is not a personal attack.  You should certainly warn a user and threaten to block them once they've actually committed an offense. And what does the warning not to assist Tony mean?  Am I supposed to no longer edit any page Tony edits or agree with any of his edits?  Since we have similar interests, that's going to be interesting. Please clarify. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 15:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Radiant did not say that he would personally block you. If you engage in personal attacks, you will be blocked - but probably not by any admins you are in a dispute with.  Very important distinction.  —Wknight94 (talk) 15:26, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Wknight, when an editor has about 45,000 edits as I do, and has never been warned or blocked (and Radiant! was the one who approached me and asked for feedback), there's really only one way to take his posting. Radiant! knows that I don't need to have Wiki policy cited to me, that I've been around long enough to know policy, or I doubt he would have approached me to begin with. I don't think I misinterpreted the veiled warning, and I notice that he still hasn't answered my query about assisting Tony.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:16, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you are forgetting the "childish antics"-part Radiant! used in his assisting Tony remark a bit too easily here. While on the other hand you’re making sure to use the word "mischaracterization" in combination with Radiant! no less than nine times in three of your posts. Do you think that helps? --Van helsing 16:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, right. Tony 15:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC) PS Hoary says he feels quite left out, not being a target. Tony 15:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I see that your apology above was hollow and meaningless . That sums it all up, doesn't it?  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  15:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it's just that this is going around in circles, and we've all got better things to do with our time. No, my apology you can take at face value. But this is getting silly here. Off to bed. Tony 15:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

By the way, to clear up another mischaracterization, Radiant! said earlier that I was asking for an outside opinion on a conflict. I should clarify that Radiant! initiated the conversation on my talk page, and specifically requested my feedback, after I successfully intervened to stop an edit war he was engaged in (he was at 3 reverts), by suggesting a compromise solution. Adding edit warring to the rest of what's happening here, there are troublesome issues in evidence for an admin in conflict. I've got a plane to catch so I won't be weighing in further, but this situation needs de-escalation. I see Tony's apology has been rejected; not encouraging. Good luck to all! Sandy Georgia (Talk) 16:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please see Non-apology apology. You're really clutching at straws here.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  16:09, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Calling someone a Nazi is a blockable offence and Tony needs to refrain from such comments. I wouldn't support a block in this situation as Tony is contributing to discussions, and I'm glad to see it struck out. violet/riga (t) 16:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Just to be sure we're all on the same page; Tony1 said he was acting like a Nazi. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:16, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * While technically true the difference is not so great. violet/riga (t) 16:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's also worth mentioning that Tony did later change that comment, striking out parts of it. (I'm an uninvolved third party who attempted to help defuse this situation over on Wikiquette Alerts.) &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 21:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * "Hoary says he feels quite left out, not being a target"? Wow, how strong a fix does Hoary need? Marskell just told him to fuck off for recommending the singular they, won't that do? I actually have an explanation to propose for what we may term MOS rage. Radiant: you say, rightly, that WP:MOS is only a guideline. But: people who don't frequent WP:FAC probably aren't aware that MOS is treated as policy there. "It complies with the manual of style" is one of the sacred Featured article criteria, and "complies" is interpreted with extreme strictness. "MOS breach"  is a common objection offered to a Featured article candidate. (Example "breach": there are spaces round the emdashes.) I think that's the reason changes to WP:MOS make tempers flare among the FAC aficionados. Bishonen | talk 16:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC).
 * Would there be support for changing the relation of MOS to FAC? It would probably improve tempers in both places; permitting MOS to deal in good advice, applicable to most articles, and requiring FAC reviewers to justify their complaints by appeals to what English does. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

How sad that this was even brought to ANI. I'm speechless. Burntsauce 16:26, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This edit, "analyzing" Radiant's "ploys", is probably responsible for any vehemence Radiant may have shown. If I were Radiant, I would be tempted to bring it further. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * When I see a pattern of decptive language, I feel that the public benefit is served by exposing it. I'll repeat the exercise if Radiant continues that strategy. Oh, and just one minor point: I've seen no rebuttal of the substance of what I said. That's probably because my analysis was hard to buck—quite plain, in fact. Tony 01:16, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps they understand that meeting paranoia with reason is unlikely to be productive? Christopher Parham (talk) 11:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * For the record, I do not regard any of Tony's three ploys as an accurate or useful description of Radiant's post; and the final crack about working for a politician is uncalled-for. It did not seem useful to add this to the discussion of gender-neutral language; but that's why I mentioned it here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Given how much they interact, I'd guess that Tony's comment re Hoary was meant as friendly ribbing and nothing more. Hoary and I are amicable, as well. Wanted to clear that up. Marskell 16:51, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Confirmed. I'd been dozing off at the keyboard, and being told to fuck off gave a much-needed little fillip. Another editor did seem somewhat upset by its possible upstaging of his earlier present to me of vomit, but I think I've assuaged him. I sent Marskell a tankard of Young's Special London Ale, and am thrilled to wake up and find that he's sent me just what I'd wanted as both an admin and a high-spirited boulevardier: an axe. I'm looking forward to meeting up with Marskell soon, preparing ourselves with London Ale, and then going out for some good hacking. Now, what was the question? -- Hoary 01:24, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment from a completely uninvolved editor It is frankly quite depressing to see two of the editors I most respect involved in such... fractiousness. I wish the two of them were able to step back and apply the commonsense, decency, and good faith they invariably show when mediating or otherwise dealing with other editors and disputes. LessHeard vanU 20:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC) Which two? Tony

Block evasion and revolving IP vandalism
appears to be a sock of the permanently banned and  (same SPA topics). He appears to have made a brief revisit as an anon 'bad hand' to repeat nuisance edit pattern of removing tags from a range of Salamis articles (and vandalize the page of the editor who had placed the tags ) then come back immediately as DCBMSNB to edit those same articles. See identical edit pattern at Ampelakia, Agios Georgios, Salamis etc. Does anyone have any ideas on how to handle this long-term? While registered edits can be tackled as and when they appear, the main problem is that this editor is using revolving IP addresses to keep obstructing cleanup on this block of articles. Gordonofcartoon 22:20, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That was the previous notice, now he's back as User:Dsjgfwutvgeyxg U, who continues to vandalize Salamis pages, and now my User page: User:El Greco Something MUST be done. El Greco (talk · contribs) 16:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. See edit history - . Apart from ranting in edit summaries, this user completely refuses to communicate with other editors, which makes the problem impossible to address by discussion. I appreciate it's difficult to get long-term semiprotection on articles, but this cretin should not be allowed to carry on disrupting work across so many articles. Is VoABot II a possibility? Gordonofcartoon 17:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * User:Dsjgfwutvgeyxg U, now been block see his talk page, but lets see how long that lasts. El Greco (talk · contribs) 17:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * And now in action again as . Gordonofcartoon 11:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Chaosdevil101 removed no fair rationale tag using sockpuppet again
Following the action taken by User:Picaroon on User:Chaosdevil101, see Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents, the user has again used an ip address to remove a no fair use rationale tag on Image:Pro Evo 2008.JPG. I was told to report straight to WP:AIV if it happened again but the user used an ip address. Thanks. <font COLOR="blue">Tbo 157 <font COLOR="red">talk  20:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * ip addresses can be reported to AIV. Use the template and a quick explanation, such as mentioning sockpuppetry and name of previous account. LessHeard vanU 20:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC) resigning my post - typo and all - as it was changed accidently ps. I'm pants at image stuff, can someone else check the violations and take the necessary actions?
 * Chaosdevil101 is blocked and it appears that the IP needs a range block which I don't know how to do. -- John Reaves 20:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I will report the user to AIV since he has removed another tag. Thanks -- <font COLOR="blue">Tbo 157  <font COLOR="red">talk  20:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * According to the block log, the user hasn't been blocked yet, despite there being a block notice on the user's talk page. Thanks. <font COLOR="blue">Tbo 157  <font COLOR="red">talk  17:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Individual removing WikiProject templates from numerous pages
To whom it may concern,

I would like to bring to your attention that recently, there have been mass removals of the template called WikiProject Dravidian civilizations from the following users: Sarvagnya, Gnanapiti, and Mbrdnbry. NOTE: Mbrdnbry is a new user who has recently joined and edited as of Sept 7, 2007. With all due respect I find this users action to be rather odd by just joining and all of a sudden doing these mass removals of the WikiProject Dravidian civilizations template back to back here, right after users Gnanapiti and Sarvagnya have done the same to other related articles back to back here and here.

Furthermore, I would like to explain that there has been an AfD case against the page on Dravidian civilizations here. The outcome of this AfD was a "no consensus to delete". However, the same users who have tried to get this article deleted have condutcted these mass removals of the template for our WikiProject. Strange enough with this new user Mbrdnbry, this individual has stated "rm possible hoax until issue is resolved" when in fact this new user account wasn't around at the time of the AfD. How could this user have known about this? This leads me to believe that someone who has been invloved in this case could either be behind this or perhaps be using this acount as a sock. The leads are too convincing. I am a little confused with this user's statement. For one the issue regarding the AfD has been resolved or ended and the closing admin has stated that the article was not a hoax. Another strange thing is calling our template a hoax when in fact it was the article itself that these individuals are calling a hoax. The template that has been removed from Mbrdnbry along with the other two mentioned above is from our WikiProject Dravidian civilizations.

Lastly, I would like to respectfully resquest for your advice as to what to do. My WikiProject group have had a lot of problems with some of these individuals, not to mention the numerous removals of our WikiProject templates. Your advice and assistance would be very much appreciated. Thank you. Wiki Raja 07:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Pfenzer
This user is making it their sole purpose to continually insert a dubious claim into the Snake Rattle 'n' Roll article: that the developers ripped off his idea when making this game, and of course, he's the only one who knows "the truth". After he posted a message on my talk page, I explained that such statements can not be included in articles without actual sources to back them up. However, he has continued to re-insert the claim, and left this message on my talk page. WarpstarRider 09:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Block evasion (again)
Another sock of User:Float954: see WP:ANI above.

signed up and made a few trivial edits to the same block of articles, but quickly shifted to the same long-running pattern of removing templates and tags witout consensus. . Gordonofcartoon 11:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Dikd has now been blocked.<b style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:purple;">¤~Persian Poet Gal</b> <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 17:00, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Don Murphy
Can someone take a look at the current edit war happening over the external link to Murphy's site? I'm bringing it here instead of WP:RFPP because it is a bit more complex than a general edit war over an external link (see talkpage). I'm a bit too close to the situation to feel comfortable handling this one. Also, just as fair warning, this involves a subsection of a linked website that is trying to out the identities of Wikipedia editors, so if you are concerned about your identity being investigated/revealed you may not want to handle this one.--Isotope23 talk 12:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Lame. Murphy's site itself is fine, the stupidity on the message board is the problem, and nobody's linking to that (although it's on the home page). Guy (Help!) 12:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Someone brought it to RPP already. --<font face="Harlow Solid Italic" color="black">DarkFalls talk 12:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That was me, I submitted it to RPP before I saw this posting. I'll withdraw it since Isotope got here first Lurker (said · done) 12:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, request was declined anyway Lurker (said · done) 12:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortunate because the edit war is still happening... page should be protected or the edit warriors dealt with.--Isotope23 talk 12:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * has protected it. I've opined on the talk page as to what I think the right thing regarding the site link is. Oddly enough, my opinion wasn't met with universal acclaim. :) ++Lar: t/c 16:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks... marking this resolved as the edit warring is over for now.--Isotope23 talk 17:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Deliberate, repeated violation of WP:BLP by User:Sesmith + incivility
I recently noted that User talk:Sesmith had, contrary to WP:BLP, made large numbers of additions to categories such as Category:Latter Day Saint entertainers, Category:Latter Day Saint artists, Category:American Latter Day Saints etc., despite providing no citations from reliable, published sources to justify the subjects' inclusion in the categories, and despite the fact that the subjects' supposed religious affiliation often played little or no part in the reasons for their notariety.

I pointed out to User:Sesmith with a friendly reminder that WP:BLP requires that: "the case for the category must be made clear by the article text"; [t]he article must state the facts that result in the use of the category tag and these facts must be sourced"; "[c]ategory tags regarding religious beliefs... should not be used unless two criteria are met:


 * The subject publicly self-identifies with the belief... in question;
 * The subject's beliefs... are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources."

None (or very few) of his additions to these categories, as far as I could ascertain, satisfied any of these criteria, let alone all of them: there was usually no mention of the subject's religious affiliation in the article text, which is a requirement. The absence of such information in the body of the article also tends to suggest  that "the subject's beliefs" were not "relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life." As well, of course, the requirement "these facts must be sourced" from "reliable published sources" was completely unmet.

User:Sesmith responded with a dismissive note inviting me to be more specific. He deleted my notice from his talk page with an edit summary that suggested he was already familiar with the policy. I took his request for greater specificity at face value, and responded with a selection of the offending inclusions and citations of the relevant portions of WP:BLP to make it clear what was at issue.

User:Sesmith responded with a hostile note asserting, essentially, that he was already aware of the policy, and claiming that the violations were negligible and anyway (for some reason) not his responsibility because they were part of a "batch update" and were ancillary to category additions by previous editors -- implicitly conceding that in spite of being aware that they violated WP:BLP, he had made such changes to, in his words, "hundreds" of articles.

I responded by saying that he is responsible for his own edits, reiterated that the edits violated WP:BLP, and pointed out that he had created a large mess he should now clean up, and that he could consider removing any similar violations he might find in the articles which now required cleaning up. User:Sesmith deleted my message with an abusive and uncivil edit summary.

Not only did User:Sesmith not revert his improper additions to these categories, he actually restored specific ones I had mentioned as being violations and had removed -- again, evidently in full knowledge that doing so violated WP:BLP.

He then proceeded to the article List of Latter Day Saints, an article likewise afflicted with large numbers of unsourced claims about religious affiliation, and is the subject of a notice on the BLP noticeboard. I have been in the process of moving through the list removing entries involving living people where no citation from a reliable, published source justifies keeping them on the list and had explained the rationale here. User:Sesmith, who now appears to be following me around, intervened in the exchange with this uncivil and abusive response and then promptly restored all the violations to the list -- now without any doubt deliberately and in the full knowledge that restoring these entries violates WP:BLP. (Admin User:Jossi has since deleted the offending entries, and placed a warning against restoring them on the article talk page).

In my opinion, User:Sesmith:


 * Should face a block for disruption (specifically, "persistently posting material contrary to the biographies of living persons policy") for:
 * deliberately and repeatedly violating WP:BLP, and in particular WP:BLP, in spite of having a clear understanding of the policy.
 * his repeated abusiveness and incivility ("ignoramus," "anal," "on a personal power trip" and so forth).


 * Should be instructed to cease his incivility in the future or face the possibility of further blocks.


 * Should be prevented from editing articles in this subject area unless he can commit to observing WP:BLP henceforth, and should face a longer-term block in the event he resumes violating the policy.

--Rrburke(talk) 17:01, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you give us the Cliff's Notes version of the above discussion? Raymond Arritt 17:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll try:
 * He did this, this, and this after I told him here that doing so violated this. Doing it after being informed of the policy, which he said he already knew anyway, means that he did it deliberately, knowing that the edits were violations.


 * He claims to have made similar edits to "hundreds" of articles,  and in that last set of diffs implicitly acknowledges he was already aware of the policy, which confirms he was not acting ignorantly, simply ignoring the policy.


 * If more confirmation were actually needed that he engages in deliberate violations, he restored a whole host of WP:BLP violations with this edit, long after he'd been informed of the policy (the edits were later removed as WP:BLP violations by an admin in this edit) and after reading and participating in this discussion -- so he is not just violating the policy in question, he's repeatedly violating it actively and deliberately, and presumably plans to go on doing so.


 * He's also abusive and uncivil, as this edit summary and this edit, for example, make clear.


 * But the long version is better :) --Rrburke(talk) 18:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If people making mechanical category changes (category renames/merges, etc) are to be held responsible for the categorizations of every article they touch, nothing will ever get done (except, possibly, deletion) at CFD. Why not go further and say that ANY violation of ANY policy in ANY part of an article is the responsibility of the last editor who touched it, even if they didn't insert it. This is essentially the same as holding someone who edits a template responsible for a pre-existing BLP-violating transclusion of that template. --Random832 19:53, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * A further question - why is it that BLP#Categories applies to ALL categories whereas BLP itself applies only to "contentious" material? This even seems to apply to stub sorting: Picking an article at random, Joe_Allen_Evyagotailak provides no sources for the claim that its subject is canadian, or that he is a politician. Or for that matter that he was born in 1953, that he's Inuit, that he's from Kitikmeot Region, or anything else the categories say. I'm not going to violate WP:POINT by actually removing the categories, but CLEARLY there is something wrong with WP:BLP as it stands. --Random832 19:57, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure this is a live issue in this case: this case is these about improper additions of categories to individual articles -- lots of them -- not about changes to the categories themselves. --Rrburke(talk) 20:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The letter of BLP#Categories (and this complaint is definitely sticking to the letter in some of those cases) forbid ANY unsourced categories, which severely impacts stub sorting (no, this is not a case of stub sorting, the point is it's a clear example why the rule is messed up). And, the words that he's twisted into "admitting that he's deliberately violating BLP" (those words, incidentally, constitute no such admission) are clearly a case of (regardless of if it's true), him claiming that he's applying something akin to a category naming convention change rather than actively categorizing articles. --Random832 22:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you mean by "sticking to the letter": this is about as cut-and-dried an example of violating the policy in question as I can imagine: the policy requires that if you're going to add a living person to the category Religion X, the article text must also say the person belongs to Religion X. These (and a great many more I didn't include -- "hundreds" according to the editor himself) didn't.  The policy requires that a reliable published source be provided to corroborate that the person actually belongs to Religion X.  These didn't.


 * The policy is especially precise about category tags claiming religious affiliation: they "should not be used" unless "the subject publicly self-identifies with the belief" and "[t]he subject's beliefs... are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life," with the requirement of verifiability: "according to reliable published sources." A great many of these category tags were added to articles on sports figures and entertainers, and so didn't satisfy any of the criteria -- and all of them need to be satisfied.  Also, no sources were cited.  Adding a category tag for Religion X to an article about a baseball player, when the article itself doesn't even mention the player's religion, let alone contain a quote establishing "self-identification" together with an inline cite, fails every one of the criteria -- and there were lots of examples just like this one: Roy Halladay.


 * I have to say I take some exception to the claim that I've "twisted" anything into anything else, if that's supposed to imply some intention to mislead. First, I never used the words "admitting that he's deliberately violating BLP" -- those are your words, not mine.  If you're going to claim that I'm "twisting" something, please at least quote me accurately.  I sent a short note to the editor on the assumption he was violating the policy innocently, asking him to remember to observe WP:BLP.  He replied, "I always do, thx."  So I gather from that he's already familiar with the policy, and was familiar with it when he made these "hundreds" of similar edits -- which is a different thing altogether from violating it innocently.  If he then continues violating it, it can't be because he's never heard of it.  Even if he had never heard of it, I then, in response to his request for greater specificity, quoted the relevant portion of the policy and gave specific examples of edits of his -- a few among "hundreds" of similar edits -- that violated the policy.


 * After you've had the policy cited to you and been given specific examples detailing edits that violated it, if you go ahead and do the same thing again, you're violating the policy deliberately, in full knowledge of what you're doing -- even if you hadn't already acknowledged you were familiar with the policy to begin with, which this editor did. And it's not a question of misinterpretation or different people having different understandings of the policy, because WP:BLP is a very straightforward and uncomplicated couple of sentences with a handful of easy-to-understand criteria.


 * You seem not to like WP:BLP. Naturally, that's fine and I respect it.  I'm sure plenty of people agree with you.  But your responses appear to confuse your dislike of the policy with the question of whether it was violated in this instance, matters which don't really have anything to do with each other.  --Rrburke(talk) 11:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If there were so many examples where it wasn't mentioned in the article text, why didn't you use those diffs in this ANI posting instead of the ones where it was? The reason I took exception to this was that you were listing articles where it _was_ present in the text - not sourced, but not contentious either, and seemed to be using a loophole in BLP that inexplicably makes it stricter with categories than with article text. The other thing that it seemed clear that in many cases he was simply adding subcategories to articles already in the latter-day saints category, and it's really not reasonable to hold him responsible for that - CFD would never get anything done if people can't make mechanical category changes based on already-present categories without opening themselves up to BLP accusations. Can you point to any examples where both of the following apply?
 * The article text did not already state the subject's religion
 * The article was not already in an LDS category not added by User:Sesmith
 * If not, I have to wonder if you have some other motive. --Random832 23:41, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * A couple of things: first, this is not the first time you've tried to insinuate that I'm acting from some ulterior motive. As you have no basis and no evidence for such an insinuation -- it also happens to be wrong -- I'll thank you to stop making it.  Absent evidence to the contrary, you can assume I submitted this report for precisely the reasons set out herein, and not for any other.


 * Second, I chose the examples I did precisely because they were ones I had already specifically raised with the editor -- violations he decided to restore even after being made aware of the policy in detail. My purpose was to make it as clear as possible that these were not innocent violations, but ones made deliberately -- after being aware both that they were violations and how they were violations.  They illustrated the point best, because they were ones about which there couldn't be any confusion.  These were not mechanical mass additions of subcategories, but one-at-a-time manual restorations of categories in cases where the editor had already been made aware that the addition of them in the first place had violated WP:BLP. [split response, this paragraph is Rrburke(talk)]
 * The majority of the diffs you cited in this ANI post either had a statement already in the article text that the subject was LDS, or had a _category_ that was already on the article, saying the subject was LDS. "when the article itself doesn't even mention" the religion is simply false for most of the diffs you cited. --Random832 14:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The addition of these particular category tags has to satisfy all the criteria: some failed certain ones; others failed other ones; still others failed all. These are the ones he chose to restore even after being made aware of the policy. So?  --Rrburke(talk) 20:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I chose these edits and not others because they and not others are the strongest examples of the disruptive editing I'm attempting -- with little success, evidently -- to draw attention to. The "hundreds" (the editor's own words) of others are the background to these, but the editor acknowledged early on that he was already aware of the policy and didn't need me to remind him of it, which appears to me to mean that even at the time of adding these categories to hundreds of articles, the editor was familiar with WP:BLP and so couldn't claim ignorance as an excuse.  There's a difference between being ignorant of a policy and ignoring it. [split response, this paragraph is Rrburke(talk)]
 * A single edit where he was actually newly inserting the claim that the subject is LDS would be a MUCH stronger example of a BLP violation than any number of diffs where he is not doing so. --Random832 14:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That would only be the case if, to use the example again, the fact that someone previously added President Bush to the category "War criminals" would somehow negate my responsibility for adding him later to the category "American war criminals". Since it wouldn't, and the prior presence of offending categories has no bearing on a later editor's addition of more, neither does it have any bearing on the strength of the examples -- which, moreover, were offered to illustrate disruption, not simple, even knowing, violation. --Rrburke(talk) 20:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If any confirmation of the deliberate nature of the violations were still required, consider that he later restored a whole host of WP:BLP violations with this edit, both long after he'd been informed of the policy and after reading and participating in this thread where the fact the material he later restored violated WP:BLP was being discussed. That edit more than any other demonstrates that the editor not only violates the policy but does it for a disruptive purpose, from a "wilful refusal to 'get the point' despite the clear statement of policy," as it's described in WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.


 * Finally, the issue of whether the articles were already in LDS categories not added by User:Sesmith is irrelevant: if some vandal adds George W. Bush to the category "War criminals," would that somehow excuse me from responsibility if I then come along and add him to the category "American war criminals"? What's my defense?  That's it's not my fault because I'm merely compounding somebody else's vandalism, not coming up with it all on my own?  That's not just specious but silly, and I should expect to be held accountable for my own edit, whatever the earlier vandal might have done.  --Rrburke(talk) 09:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't excuse you, but it would make it at least suspicious for someone to choose you alone to go after when the person who added the other category is equally guilty. Why are you going after him and NOT the person who added the other category, or the statement in the article text, in each of those cases. Is there any particular reason you have singled him out? --Random832 14:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * (outdent) The reason is exceedingly simple (and not "suspicious"): when I glanced at the edit histories of the articles in these categories, I saw that this user's name appeared time and again in a large number of them, each time adding one of more of these categories. That is not why I "singled him out" -- because in fact I didn't single him out: I sent him a very innocuous note asking him to remember to observe WP:BLP when adding religious-affiliation categories to articles.  He responded dismissively with an (erroneous) assertion that he always did so.  Since that obviously wasn't the case, I cited the policy in question to clarify the matter, which occasioned an increasingly shrill and finally abusive string of responses, together with a restoration of the offending edits with no attempt to provide the required citations -- followed, finally, by a disruptive spite-edit which there can be no question he knew to be a violation.  So I didn't "single him out": he escalated a simple matter with an easy remedy to the point where in order to prevent further violations, which he showed no likelihood of stopping on his own, few options were left but to bring it here.  --Rrburke(talk) 20:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * One reason that BLP applies to all categories is that those seeing the category pages cannot see the citation or back-up, so looking at Category:Criminals if you see Joe Blow there you know that Joe Blow is a criminal and (if all is well in WP) that something in his bio is sourced saying that he was convicted of a crime. For me, I think that religious/ethnic/race labels are inherently contentious anyway: think not? Do you think that Bill Graham would object if you changed his religious category to something else - say Atheist, or Nelson Mandela would care if his race were changed to something else - say Afrikaaner? WP shouldn't be in the business of categorizing by these characteristics for a number of reasons (WP:V, WP:OR, WP:SYNTH, WP:OCAT, arbitrariness, and yes, WP:BLP). Carlossuarez46 02:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Regardless, it seems pretty obvious to me that "the facts supporting a category's inclusion MUST be sourced" (even if they're not contentious) is one of those rules that only applies if someone has it in for you. --Random832 22:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That doesn't seem at all obvious to me, and the issue seems pretty straightforward: "these facts must be sourced" in this instance merely means that in order to add a living person somebody to the category Religion X, the person in question has to have said "I belong to Religion X," and a reliable source has to be cited to prove he or she actually said it. This is a simple question of verifiability, a core policy -- with the added burden to get it right that WP:BLP places.  --Rrburke(talk) 11:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * But even BLP doesn't put that much burden on anything other than a category. I brought up stub sorting because stubs are the articles most likely not to have sources cited for anything. What BLP is saying is that even the most uncontroversial statement, that would NEVER be removed if it appeared in article text without a source, is cause for accusing the person who added a category of repeated and deliberate policy violations. The written policy is not the same as what is actually done every day by thousands of users. --Random832 23:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The issue here is not any uncontroversial statement, but the claim that someone is affiliated with a particular religion -- a claim that would face the same scrutiny if placed in the text of an article, so there is no extra burden being placed on categories. Surely you're not saying that if I pick a biographical article at random and insert the unsourced claim  "X is a member of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church" that that insertion would go unchallenged?  It would be reverted immediately.  Moreover, WP:BLP specifically sets out strict criteria for adding category tags claiming religious affiliation -- and the editor was aware of these criteria, because I had made him aware of them, and he chose to restore the categories anyway.


 * So it is completely erroneous to claim that on the basis of an "uncontroversial statement that would NEVER be removed if it appeared in article text without a source" I am "accusing the person who added a category of repeated and deliberate policy violations." Talk about "twisting"!  First, the kind of statement in question is not uncontroversial.  Second, it would be removed -- immediately -- if it were inserted unsourced into the text of a biographical article.  And finally, that's not even the "cause" for the accusation anyway: the cause for the accusation is that the editor restored specific categories to particular articles when I had already made him aware that the addition of them in the first place had violated WP:BLP -- and that then, presumably for spite, he restored other unrelated violations after participating in a discussion which detailed how and why they violated the same policy.


 * I won't question your motives, although you've questioned mine, but I could be forgiven for ending up with the impression that you're trying not to understand. --Rrburke(talk) 09:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Daniel Rona - not only does the article text say he's LDS, it asserts notability solely on that basis. If the claim were removed from the article, the entire article would be db-bio. No, it's not sourced, but neither are a lot of stubs. I could probably take an afternoon and clear out most of any given stub sorting category if I felt so inclined. (this is the other part of why I was suspicious - if you have to rely on a policy as fundamentally broken as the current WP:BLP to do what you're trying to do, is it really what's best for the encyclopedia?) That you cited an edit to that article as one of your three top pieces of evidence does NOT help your claim. --Random832 14:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The article Daniel Rona is completely unsourced, so none of the claims in the article are verifiable anyway, which means that any addition of a religious-affiliation category tag would WP:BLP. The article also seems fairly spammy and cites no reliable, third-party sources to establish notability.  If it did, which it should or else be deleted, adding the categories in question would've been defensible.  So if the editor wished to restore the categories he could have chosen, having been made aware of the policy, to seek out reliable, third-party sources to establish the claim in order to make the category restoration comply -- and he would at the same time have been improving the overall quality of this until-then entirely unsourced article.  Instead, he chose a reflex-revert to show that he wasn't going to be told what to do, no matter what the policy says.


 * Let me try to clarify again why I chose these edits using a list of three ways to violate a policy. The list is not meant to be exhaustive:


 * I've never heard of that.
 * That doesn't seem important so I'll just ignore it.
 * Screw you, I'm going to ignore what you told me and do it again anyway.


 * I chose the examples I did not because they were the strongest examples of violating the policy, but because they were all Screw yous and Screw yous constitute disruption. It's the fact that they were Screw yous, otherwise know as a "refusal to 'get the point'", that made the edits disruptive -- and it's the disruption that the primary basis of this complaint.  The "That doesn't seem important so I'll just ignore it"s, which are the majority, are ancillary.  They're violations, certainly to be distinguished from "I've never heard of that"s; they merit reversion and a caution, but they're not the main thrust of this complaint:  "That doesn't seem important so I'll just ignore it" is knowing violation; "Screw you, I'm going to ignore what you told me and do it again anyway" is both a knowing violation and disruptive.  It's the disruptive edits I'm trying to highlight, because disruption is the basis of the complaint.


 * I notice, by the way, that you've studiously avoided addressing this edit in which the user deliberately restored a whole list of WP:BLP violations even after participating in a discussion whose headline was "Large number of unsourced entries violating Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons." That's not just a Screw you, that's a "F--k you: I'm going to go on doing this and worse as long as I like".  There no mistaking what's going on in this one.  It's called disruption, and it merits a strong caution or temporary block.  Is there a reason you've chosen not to address this example?


 * And who, exactly, says the policy is "broken"? It sets out a handful of simple, commonsense and defensible rules: don't put a person in a category unless the basis for doing so can be readily discovered from the article, otherwise it's not an important-enough part of the reason for their notoriety to include.  The part of the article that is the basis for the inclusion requires a source -- like any claim that might be challenged.  In particular, don't add a person to a category that claims they belong to a religion unless they've said they do, and don't add such a category unless their affiliation with this religion is an important part of what they're known for.  What's unreasonable about any of that?  --Rrburke(talk) 20:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

""He replied, "I always do, thx." So I gather from that he's already familiar with the policy, and was familiar with it when he made these "hundreds" of similar edits -- which is a different thing altogether from violating it innocently."" You're SEVERELY violating WP:AGF here by assuming that his claim that he's following the policy means that he is in fact aware of it and deliberately violating it, rather than simply not sharing your interpretation of the policy. Many experienced editors misinterpret policy, or don't keep up with changes to it. It was absolutely unwarranted to take his statement that he was following policy as anything other than that he honestly believed that his edits were in line with policy. --Random832 14:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What's special about religious affiliation tags is they're specifically mentioned in the policy:
 * ''Category tags regarding religious beliefs and sexual preference should not be used unless two criteria are met:
 * The subject publicly self-identifies with the belief or preference in question;
 * The subject's beliefs or sexual preferences are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources.''
 * The criteria are very simple, exceedingly clear and unequivocal. There is really no "interpretation of the policy" to founder on here.  A person would have to be wilfully obtuse to pretend to be confused by it once it's been shown to him.


 * And taking the editor at his word is not a "severe" violation of WP:AGF -- or any kind of violation at all. Res ipsa loquitur.  Moreover, you still seem to be misunderstanding me: the only instances in which I'm saying the editor is violating the policy in a way that constitutes disruption is in those instances I've cited.  In the others, he appears to be aware of it and is choosing to ignore it -- which, as I've said, merits reversion and a caution but is not by itself disruptive.  The disruption begins after you've had the policy, which is not complicated, explained to you in detail and you restore the material anyway -- and then follow the editor who's informed you of your violation of the policy to a wholly different article just so you can violate the policy again just for spite, and toss in uncivil abuse and infantile name-calling just for good measure.  That's disruption, plain and simple, and signals an intention to keep at it.


 * Finally, you keep using words like "suspicious" and intimating that I have "some other motive" despite the fact that I've asked you to stop doing that unless you can produce some evidence. So here it is in plain English: if you've got an accusation to make, then come out with it already and I'll refute it point-blank.  The insinuation and innuendo are getting tiresome.  It's time to decide whether to put the matter out there or else drop it altogether.  --Rrburke(talk) 20:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Article: Jasenovac Concetration camp
Kindly asking for the mediation in the case of the above mentioned article, due to the fact that all of my contributed and 'documented info-s and photos' have been deleted by the user Rjecina, who in my opinion tries to block the influx of valuable informations to the article and subject involved(see discussions to relevant article too,pls).

Sincerely, --Votec 22:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I accept mediation but still demand block of user:Votec because of his personal attacks on me and his 200 or more edits during last 3 days in this article. --Rjecina 22:57, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

...well, 200 or more edits were done because I am just on my third day on Wiki-line, did not know how to apply changes efficiently and as well have done a lot of grammatic corrections of the article...in addressing of member Rjecina 'demand for blocking': first of all be so kind and do not demand anything, but do try to kindly request:)...second of all, it won't help the mediation and third of all, calling you possible 'Holocaust denier' ( due to your activities concerning article 'Jasenovac concentration camp' and involving relevant discussion of the article) is not the insult, but in contrary my argumented claim.

....with hope of having constructive mediation.

sincerely, --Votec 00:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You seem to have started a single purpose account. You have accused two WP editors of being holocaust deniers. Please read WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, WP:NPA and WP:POV. All edits must be supported by verifiable sources. Mathsci 01:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

...well, as per calling yourself 'pure profession mathematician', Mathsci, you should not be starting direct and explicit qualifications before doing some basic readings!...what about, just my comment above your one: there it clearly states that I am registered and on line user just for, now it would be four days so, as per following that simple fact you certainly CAN NOT label me with 'single purpose account' label...and for that 4 days I have addressed only 2 articles...so, your claim is per such just intentional fantasy!!!

...and BTW, in the major contrary to your deliberate above claim yours 'two WP editors - namely Rjecina and Ante Perkovic' are the one and the members with 'single purpose account'...that is clearly obvious after just a short look to their activities!!!...with your 'pure profession math brain' you should certainly agree ? :)...right?

...secondly, the article (Jasenovac), I did partially contributed, does have EXTRA verifiable sources, clearly two of them, as per bellow: <<http://www.arhivrs.org/jasenovac.asp>> 'Archives of Republic of Srpska' = for your kind attention Web page being listed on the UNESCO's Archives Portals !!!...and...

<<https://cp13.heritagewebdesign.com/~lituchy/index.php>> 'Jasenovac Research Instite' = which does state in it's first sentence:  " The Jasenovac Research Institute is a non-profit human rights organization and research institute committed to establishing the truth about the Holocaust in Yugoslavia and dedicated to the search for justice for its victims. The JRI promotes research and activities designed to enlighten the world to the crimes of genocide committed at Jasenovac and wartime Yugoslavia against Serbs, Jews and Romas and provides assistance to all groups and individuals who likewise seek justice for these victims." >>>goal which sounds very noble to me...humbly hope you certanly agree too !!!

...thirdly, concerning the two WP editors ( members Rjecina and Ante Perkovic, I believe ) being accused by me( as you wrongly claim ) of being Holocaust deniers: It is not an accusation, but argumented claim, due to the deliberate activity of this two members!!!...kindly visit discussion page of the member Ante Perkovic and there you will find member's Rjecina claim that they are practising here on WP 'reversing wars' !!!!...HOPE THIS IS CLEAR ENOUGH..AND ANY TRY TO MINIMISE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE CARNAGED IN THE HOLOCAUST OF WWII...I DO NOT TOLERATE AND CALL HOLOCAUST DENIAL!!!

...can I kindly question your good intention and ask you...are you possibly the friend of above ones and trying to advocate in their behalf ? !!!...team work, maybe ? :)

very sincerely,

--Votec 12:31, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Please comment on the content not on the editors. The editors are not important, the content is. --Rocksanddirt 19:09, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * This page is not a blog and comments here are usually designed to be helpful. Please read the links I provided to avoid any future misunderstandings and kindly refrain from any form of personal attack. --Mathsci 22:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

...you certainly haven't done much of reading of above...as I can see I am the only one who is using the argmented talk and not the only direct attacks!

--Votec 20:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

For the note of administrator: by --Votec 20:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

On Wednesday, September 5th I have requested the 'mediation' of the 'English speaking page administrator' due to the repeated vandalism and deliberate deletion of the chapters in this article( not only contributed by me, but in his vandalism, by everything what did not suite his fancy...deleation have happened twice and with his second deletion on September 5th at 23:35 user Rjecina deleted (-3034) contributions by me and other users by not giving the explanation!).

If you kindly look and follow mail exchange of user Rjecina with his fellow user Ante Perkovic( and on the profile of Ante Perkovic), you can simply find that they do claim that they are doing 'reversing wars'!!! In addition following their 'line of interest' ( which can easily be concluded following their discussions) they are 'single purpose members', and if I may use the therm 'sel-made quasi WP historians'!!! Following their malicious work they do not deserve to be the part of this vibrant community.

In addition, following the history of discussions with the article 'Jasenovac Concetration Camp' I am free to conclude that this article has been constantly vandalised ( most horrible example being...(kindly read relevant comment in dicussion)...statement added on the page by irrelevant user: 'Dear Catholic God, make all fucking Serbs die!!!"

This article is not about Serbs, Croats or Jews...it is about HOLCOAST and humans being exterminated in the horror of thier coexistence and as such should be adequately protected.

Once when I started added to the article 4 days ago, I found article to be genuine ruine: written in pour English, with obvious numbers of delations in the chapters by various members with their various 'interests'...which have made article hardly cosequent and readable. As well, due to the primitive involvements of the numbers of users from all sides, the 'most elaborated' chapter was about recounting the victims, but not about, for example, the conditions in the camp, human suffering, history, background. Shameful!!!

My editing on article was focused on conecting 'the bits and peaces' in one readable story. I did have added historical facts about Zagreb's WWII archbishop Stepinac( using the info's from the relevant WP article about him). Also I have added 29 photos and related informations from the two Web pages:

<<http://www.arhivrs.org/e_index.asp>> "Archive of Republic Srpska" which is listed on UNESCO Archives portals!!!...and...

<<https://cp13.heritagewebdesign.com/~lituchy/index.php>> "Jasenovac Researh Instite" which on its first page states: "The Jasenovac Research Institute is a non-profit human rights organization and research institute committed to establishing the truth about the Holocaust in Yugoslavia and dedicated to the search for justice for its victims. The JRI promotes research and activities designed to enlighten the world to the crimes of genocide committed at Jasenovacorganisation and wartime Yugoslavia against Serbs, Jews and Romas and provides assistance to all groups and individuals who likewise seek justice for these victims."... cause I do certanly find noble and justify.

Both Web pages being mentioned, have been attacked by user Rjecina in his malitious manner and informations concerned and relevant( including the pictures of children bing victims in camp DELETED by this vandal!!!).

As well I have deleted with explenation short sentence towards the end of the text, addressing the awards given, finding it inappropriate( reasons and notice for deletaion given at the end of my above comment, in section discussions ).

Following all above mentioned and the history of the article I do consider and kindly ask for this article to be fully protected. Certanly I do not expect, that version which is actuall now ( being last edited by myself and in my opinion still very poorly elaborating the subject) should be the protected one, but I do ask for your mediation in finding indepentent and prominent source ( for example, United States Holcoast Memorial Museums, which is having the info-s, certanly willinness to do so, and computer knowledge to contribute). After their contribution article should be fully protected.

I do respect Wikipedia philospohy of being the open information source, meant to built up the knowledge and share, but in the certain ocassion ( as I have noticed you have implemented it few times with 'difficult subject'...example 'Roma people' ) and this is certanly, in my opinion, the case ( due to the expolosion of primitive emotions accumulated and due to the wars in ex-Yugoslavia), I beleive that this would be the adequate solution.

If no, I am certain and positive that after this, or any other future conflict situation and mediations, this article will be repeaditly and repeditly vandalised and missused.

Holocaust thematic and Jasenovac as World Heritage Site do certainly ask for full protection.

Thanks for you readings and kindly advise with your point,

--Votec 20:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

User:RJ CG editwarring again
Blocked for 119h by Stephanie. Suva 21:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

He seems to have started the old reverting on Bronze Soldier of Tallinn and Rein Lang again. Together with editmessage chatting. He also accuses everyone of personal attacks while throwing personal attacks himself.

I am not sure wether or not he has broken WP:3RR yet, he apparently tries to avoid it by claiming that some of his several edits are one revert or something similar.

Every time his block expires he seems to start the same stuff what he has been doing for a month again. Don't know what to do about that, maybe someone else does? Suva 21:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

User:130.132.208.28 sockpuppetry
An anonymous user from 130.132.208.28, is now claiming to be more than one person (alter-ego calling themselves Cyrus) to attempt to win their argument on Talk:Guitar. This discussion on NPOV has been going for some time no with no resolution in sight. The user refuses to follow Wikipedia etiquette such as signing their posts, no personal attacks, and use of sockpuppets. MegX 02:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

User MegX has abused me and avoided addressing my point of view since I started posting on the page. She has attacked me as a sock puppet and as a nationalist. She has similarly abused a previous editor on the site and was engaged in an edit war with them. She continues to be discourtious and does nothing but attack other editors personally. She insinuated herself into a discussion I was having with Peter Blaise and subsequently tried to intimidate me by playing tricks such as above. CyrusMilani —Preceding unsigned comment added by CyrusMilani (talk • contribs) 19:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There was no other editor. You are the person pretending to be anoher user. You are using sockpuppet tactics to disrupt Wikipedia. If you continue making false statements against me I intend taking this matter further with your provider Yale University and to sue you for libel. In fact I intend right now to write a letter of complaint to your IT admin. MegX 01:53, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No legal threats, and grow up. Don't label anyone anything, and sign your posts. Also, if you can't find a solution then ask someone else for a third opinion but that's probably why you're here. Ok, I'll help. Describe the problem on the bottom of Talk:Guitar and I'll see what I can do. Jeffrey.Kleykamp 02:06, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * My statement on this whole matter can be found here User:MegX/Statement. MegX 02:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Is this allowed, for her to threaten me with legal action after abusing me? I thought you said I was Australian. Make up your mind. We really need an administrator to sort this out. She is trying to intimidate me from disagreeing with her with legal action. btw how about you come out from behiund your cloak of anonymity so I can take my own action. CyrusMilani —Preceding unsigned comment added by CyrusMilani (talk • contribs) 03:18, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey there Cyrus, I would not waste my time with this rubbish, it does not deserve the time and the effort. You could argue about Elam vs Anshan until you are blue in the face, and then she'll just revert it. btw it is Irwin not Irvine. Enough said!?!?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.29.126 (talk) 04:06, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

You are right there dude. She has succeeded in dissuading me from contributing. It is a waste of time. It is a very uncivilized forum. CyrusMilani —Preceding unsigned comment added by CyrusMilani (talk • contribs) 04:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Is this acceptable?
Is keeping a record of (spurious) sockpuppetry accusations, such as held here User talk:Kitrus accepted? Interesting juxtaposition of warnings and records http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Kitrus&action=history. Thoughts? -- Avi 06:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I always enjoy accusations of sockpuppetry against the likes of Jayjg, they make it so much easier to work out that the accuser is deluded :-) No, this is not an acceptable use of user space. Guy (Help!) 08:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought so. Thank you, and it's good to see you back, Guy! --- Avi 12:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Funny, before other things came up for Jayjg, he was editing so heavily any sockpuppeting would have prohibited a job, eating, and sleeping. --MichaelLinnear 23:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Needahotel.com
Please help! I created a factual and non flattering article on a company called Needahotel.com. In it's first draft it appeared to be advertising which I quickly corrected. It is a very similar entry to those of other corporate entries. The admins basically just agreed with each other one after the other and made no atempt to assess the pages content independently. They were very unprofessional in their approach. Only one or two bothered to suggest ways in which the article could be improved or brought up to standard. All arguments centered around the page seeming to be SPAM. How could it be SPAM? Please help in resolving this and having the page reinstated. The page has not been given a chance. If it is not aloud to remain then how are other independent sources meant to be able to contribute to the article?--Darragh.Flynn 10:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi there Darragh, on wikipedia, we have guidelines which show how a company is notable. Take a look at WP:CORP which is the guidline for companies and WP:WEB which is the guidline for websites. You will have to find reliable sources that show how the company/website is notable for the page not to be deleted. I'm sorry, but I don't believe this website at present is notable enough.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  10:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Ryan Postlethwaite for the advice. I was in the process of locating further references on the site when it got deleted. Now I am unable to recreate it. Bit of a bother.


 * , and  were all promotional in tone and written entirely by single purpose accounts with usernames suggestive of roles within the company.  Travelport is the parent of ;  is also a single-purpose account.  Articles for deletion/Needahotel.com shows clear consensus.  Looking at the history of these articles, and Darragh.Flynn's advocacy for this article, I'd say we've wasted enough time on this, Wikipedia is not a business directory and has no aspirations to be one. Guy (Help!) 11:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Nor would I ever consider Wikipedia as a business directory. This is corporate information on a company that is researched and studied by academics around the world as being a prime example of the Irish economy boom times. I am constantly answering the phone to students who are seeking information on the company and details such as the ones I put on the Wiki entry. Also, how dare you suggest that I am wasting your time. I posted here looking for help. GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE GUY. --Darragh.Flynn 12:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I looked at the deleted article and it is excessively promotional in tone. If you want to write a neutral article, that would be fine, but there's no way the article as it stood was appropriate. Regarding your final remarks to Guy (one of our most respected editors and administrators) you may want to look into a Dale Carnegie course. Raymond Arritt 13:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think what Guy and Raymond are saying is that Wikipedia, by virtue of its prominence on varous search engines, is targeted for quite a lot of promotional material. People who are serious about the encyclopedic mission of the site tend to react strongly, and negatively, to such material. Articles on companies and websites need to be based on independent, reliable sources that establish the company's notability; the more you avoid promotional material drawn from the company's website, the better. If you feel that needahotel.com can meet the criteria set forth in WP:WEB and WP:ORG, then the best course of action may be to work on a less promotional version of the article in your userspace (e.g. at User:Darragh.Flynn/Needahotel draft). When you feel it meets the notability criteria, you can propose that the article be re-created, using your draft, at deletion review. If you want to recreate an article that was deleted via the "Articles for deletion" process, then it needs to go through deletion review. Best of luck. MastCell Talk 15:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It's also worth adding that, because Wikipedia uses nofollow tags, it won't boost the search engine rankings of any website you mention/link to —  iride scent   <i style="color:#5CA36A;">(talk to me!)</i>  16:11, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks to those who took the time to explain their position. It is appreciated. If the article in its current form is regarded as advertising then I did a poor job on the second edit. The company in question has an annual turnover of 100 million and it is not seeking to boost search engine rankings. They pay another company thousands for that task. This was purely designed in the hope of publishing some basic stats on the company so they would be easily accessible to students who seem to favour writing papers on the success of the company. To be honest, I am exhausted and disappointed at the poor attitude of some of the admins. I guess you resign supreme in your little kingdoms. I really couldn't be bothered trying anymore. Let someone else contribute if they want.--Darragh.Flynn 17:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * "I am constantly answering the phone to students who are seeking information on the company and details such as the ones I put on the Wiki entry." - That's not what Wikipedia is for. If you work for the company or act as some sort of PR/representative agent for the company, you should probably not be writing about it here as you have a conflict of interest. Wikipedia is not the place to just post information from personal knowledge about a company. It needs to be notable, it should have reliable sources or at least be verifiable with reliable sources (ideally sources independent from the company), andit needs to be neutral.  Mr.  Z- man  17:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I've userfied the the article for Darragh and I'll keep my eyes on it. If it gets up to scratch I'll run it through DRV.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  17:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Good solution. I'd be willing to advise him on how to bring the article up to snuff. Raymond Arritt 20:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

2 CFD discussions
Perhaps not exactly the right place to raise this, but it's probably the most expeditious and not wholly out of line, so here goes...

Would another admin please look at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_September_5 and Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_September_6 and see whether it is appropriate to close the latter one which only began after a user depopulated the first cat under discussion in an effort to moot the debate. Although there seems to be good rationale for closing one and merging the debates, I have participated in both so I would like an uninvolved 3rd party evaluate and decide whether to do so and actually do it. Cheers, Carlossuarez46 18:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look at it. --Kbdank71 18:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, I've repopulated the first category and closed the second discussion. --Kbdank71 18:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Carlossuarez46 19:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Long term vandalism by 201.9.xxx.xxx IP range
Someone has been vandalizing The Fairly OddParents and related articles for some time now. The vandal will make a few to several dozen edits every week or so under a different IP starting with 201.9. The edit is subtle, almost always changing a date to be one year earlier, such as this recent series of edits. This has been happening at least since March 2007, earliest edit I found was this one.

Checking the other contributions of the vandal's IPs on these two pages shows that many of the edits go unnoticed, and many are still present. I corrected quite a few before discovering the number of edits (may exceed hundreds).

CoJaBo 21:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I've rangeblocked 201.9.0.0/16 for 1 week. Its a big IP range of a Brazilian ISP, so I did not block account creation to avoid excess collateral damage. Be on the lookout for possible similar vandalism from new logged in users. If that occurs or vandalism persists from more IPs or after the block expires, contact me. Mr.  Z- man  22:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Vanessa Anne Hudgens
I have protected this page, because it is the subject of some vandalism regarding the recent release of a nude photograph of this actress, including the posting of the photograph itself. I don't have time to do this now, but I'd appreciate a few admins looking at the "Photo Controversy" section, determine what, if anything, should remain (it's all well sourced, but may not fit BLP), and possibly looking through the history to see if there's anything that needs to be oversighted. Ral315 » 21:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Persistent vandalism on The End's Not Near, It's Here
Hey all,

This is an issue that's been ongoing since early August, as far as I know. A string of very similar IPs have been vandalizing the above named article, all adding the exact same ridiculous block of text, suggesting that Donkey Kong and Rosie O'Donnell were guest stars in the episode, among other things. I've submitted this to AIV previously, and the IPs in question were banned, and the article was semi-protected. However, it expired three days later and the vandalism was picked up almost immediately by a fresh set of IPs.

216.208.153.226 (this one slipped through the first time)

209.226.39.141

216.208.153.230 (this IP also vandalized a string of game show-related articles)

206.47.105.218

206.47.105.212

209.226.39.147  (this IP also vandalized a page previously vandalized by 209.226.38.87, which was blocked after the previous AIV report)

The last one listed is the most recent; I've bypassed AIV to come here, as I think this deserves more than a standard vandalism block. I'm not going to suggest another range block, as I am aware that many innocent users would be affected, but perhaps an admin wouldn't mind going through and blocking the couple IPs that have been active thus far, and then keep an eye on the article to block any further disruption? Thanks. GlassCobra (talk • contribs) 22:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll submit the article to WP:RFPP for you; if semi'd again that should give admins time to root out the IPs responsible and block them for the disruption. - Jéské  ( v^_^v Kacheek! ) 05:29, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

A little help at Dragon Ball Z, please?
Apparently, theres some disagreement as to whether there is a live-action movie coming out soon and it's getting a little edit-warry over there. Perhaps if an admin had a word? HalfShadow 22:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I am getting very tired of this user. This user is not following fair use image rules. I have tagged a lot of their images. Can someone else deal with this user? <b style="font-family:monospace, monospace; color:#009900;">Alpta</b> 23:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have had a word with her and offered her assistance in making fair use claims. If she continues to ignore the notices and uploads more images en masse then we may have to take further action. I'll try and keep and eye on it, but drop me a note if you see another upload spree occurring before I do. Rockpock  e  t  06:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

User harassing me
User Rjecina sent me this message after i reported him for encouraging edit wars. Now he has written on his userpage that he is going to spy on me and a couple of other users. I am not sure if thats against the rules, but it most certainly feels uncomfortable. Paulcicero 23:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If by 'spy' he means 'take notes on behaviour', then that's acceptable as per this arbcom decision. It's bad manners to use that term though. &mdash;Crazytales talk/desk 23:11, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes... on the other hand, if by "spy" he means follow you around to other articles and make trouble there, then that's a problem. MastCell Talk 23:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * To be fair, though, it doesn't seem as though English is Rjecina's first language. HalfShadow 23:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Paulcicero has been spying my edits and has reported my for creating Croatian Wikipedians' notice board. This is funny because "my" notice board is copy of Serbian Wikipedians' notice board from word to word but his home notice board is OK for him. !! About spying evidence is his action about notice board and his reaction on my comments on Wikipedia:Hungarian Wikipedians' notice board about user:PANONIAN. I have writen comments in 15:23 he has send warning to PANONIAN about this discussion on 16:56. It is possible to see that my moves has happen only like reaction on his moves. About others which I spy they have confirmed before that they are spying on me so there is no problem Rjecina 23:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You are the one with stated POV pushing on their user page and said you have to spy on others. Left warning on your userpage.Rlevse 23:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If we will play about "spying" please see list on PANONIAN user page. There is 33 users which he spy or better to say he is looking "contributions of other users that are interesting to me". Is this wordings OK ?? Rjecina 23:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well rjecina if you werent spying on me, how did you find out about this incident-report? Paulcicero 23:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Quit fighting, it's lame and not helpful to Wikipedia. If you really have problems then both of you stop editing the articles where you overlap. Jeffrey.Kleykamp 23:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You are right, sorry for the discussion. I just wanted to find out if he could write that on his user page. Paulcicero 23:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I have been looking on user:Ante Perkovic discussion page if he has answered to my writing about Croatian Wikipedians' notice board . In my surprise I have noticed that somebody has deleted this notice board and then I have started to look how when and where has this been deleted. It is very ease to see how I have been on wiki around 2 hours before I have noticed this. Better question is from where have you heard about this notice board ?? From spying ?? Rjecina 23:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Ja, really. Besides, he says the other users are interesting and should think it a compliment. You all need to learn to get along. Also, it's better to bring specific actions here, they speak louder than words.Rlevse 23:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * He just wrote that now, earlier it said he wished to spy at us, by the way isn´t his whole page in violation with wikirules? See  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulcicero (talk • contribs) 23:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * People have more freedom on their user page in general. Jeffrey.Kleykamp 23:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes and I am interested in work of other users like they are interested in my work. Definition on my user page is changed ! Rjecina 23:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If it spawns "behaviors that are found threatening or disturbing, and beyond those that are sanctioned by society" it's harassment which isn't condoned by Wikipedians, see Harassment. Jeffrey.Kleykamp 23:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * PS: It might be this: Harassment. Jeffrey.Kleykamp 23:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If we want to speak about stalking my only comment is that person which stalk me from August now demand that I be blocked because of stalking. Examples of this statement is possible to find on pages: Independent State of Croatia, Jasenovac concentration camp, Chetniks... My edits have been very soon reverted from this user. In my thinking I must survive users like him if I want to be on wiki. I do not even demand that he be blocked because I know very good that on 1 user which let me know that he is looking my edits there is minimal 2 - 3 which are staying in shadows.. I will not take anymore place on this noticeboard. Rjecina 23:58, 7 September 2007 (UTC)