Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive326

User:Neverpitch
User:Neverpitch's only contributions have been to randomly remove PRODs from articles in bad faith with the same reason of "Wikipedia is not supposed to be a bureaucracy, Wikipedia is not paper." Appears to just be a POV/ideology push rather than legitimate PROD disagreements (it looks like he just went alphabetically through a list). Originally reported to Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism. An admin left him a note about being distruptive, and his responses seem to confirm that he is only doing it to make a point about his disagreements on the deletion process. The vandalism case was closed as not being obvious and it was recommended I posted here. Here are the comments from other admins about the issue from there including one that notes this may be a sockpuppet account. Collectonian 20:37, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've had a look. I don't see how proding makes us bueracratic, it's a good way to get around AFDs when the result will obviously be delete but the article meets no CSDs. I think an admin should have a word with him--Phoenix-wiki (talk · contribs) 20:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It looks like a second admin has left him a note, to which he seems to basically be responding to with "I'm not disruptive, you are." He is also continuing to both remove PRODs and notability delete tags in bad faith and repeat the same "reasoning" across a plethora of AfDs. Collectonian 02:36, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * He is also now adding to his seemingly disruptive behaviour by running through other PRODs and redirecting them to other articles, without actually merging anything from them, such as Undermine (Warcraft) and Tarren Mill. Collectonian 02:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I have no idea why you are complaining. With the PRODS in place, the articles would have been deleted without any merges being done either, yet I don't see you whining about the people who inserted the PRODS into the articles.--Neverpitch 03:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Probably because we don't care either way about gamecruft being preserved. JuJube 08:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Need a regex
Can someone write me a regex so that I could use AWB to deal with this? It's going to be deleted as a result of a TfD, but I have no idea how to regex it and I don't want to remove them by hand. RyanGerbil10 (Говорить!) 01:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You could go to the "Find and replace" feature of AWB and put to be replaced with nothing (or if that doesn't work then a new line). I'm not great with regex's though so it may or may not work.  James086 Talk &#124;  Email 02:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm quite familiar with the find and replace function, the only problem is that the template has variable parameters, so find and replace has trouble with a text-based search. RyanGerbil10 (Говорить!) 02:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's me to the rescue again. Try, or if you're feeling adventurous,   east. 718 at 02:17, 11/14/2007
 * I'd recommend  instead and set AWB to case insensitive. There could be multiple spaces and your last wildcard could match more than intended as it's greedy. -- JLaTondre 02:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I hate to tell you guys, but none of those work. Does anyone think that these link templates are inadvisable for these reasons? Why do we need templates to do the links, it makes them nearly impossible to remove easily. RyanGerbil10 (Говорить!) 03:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Done manually, thanks for the help though. RyanGerbil10 (Говорить!) 03:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * : ( Just for the future, you can use these two sites to craft your own. east. 718 at 03:54, 11/14/2007
 * Out of curiosity, why was this posted on the board for incidents requiring administrator actions? Neil   ☎  10:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I actually tested it in AWB before posting it. It's possible I copy-n-pasted wrong, though it looks right. Are you sure you selected the Regex checkbox? AWB won't treat it as a Regex unless you do. -- JLaTondre 11:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Moon question
I don't deal with any of the various moon articles, but can someone tell me if Metebelis is being constructive or not with his/her edits? IrishGuy talk 02:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks fine to me... Some cleanup and adding Moons of (Planet Name) collapsible boxes. Seems OK  FlowerpotmaN &middot;(t) 03:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Just a PS. I was looking at the edit histories of some of the articles, and there seems to be something that was either breaking boxes, or ... well, I'm not sure, but it was leaving fragements of what looked like code from a template: for example in Tethys (moon), it left "... | Enceladus | Telesto, Tethys and Calypso | Polydeuces, Dione and Helene | ...".
 * I thought it was a particular bot, but I found a couple where that bot hadn't been. So, if anyone sees this, they might want to take a look. That said, Metebelis's edits are cleaning them up.  FlowerpotmaN &middot;(t) 03:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Thanks for looking into it. IrishGuy talk 18:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Clive Bull has been incorrectly protected against "vandalism" by User:The-G-Unit-Boss
The Clive Bull article has long been a target against vandalism by people adding insults and uncited material. Several days ago I reverted some vandalism and removed some claims that have been uncited for 10 months. I have previously asked for citations in edit summaries, but none were added. I have asked the editors who added the material on their talk pages for citations, but none were added. I have added "citation needed" tags for these claims, but none were added. I have added a huge hidden comment in the article asking for citations, but still none have been added.

So I removed the unsourced claims a few days ago, there followed a few reverts by a disruptive editor/s, claiming my edits were "rascist" (sic) and "sickofantic" (sic).

Now the article has been reverted to the version that includes the 10 month old uncited statement (it has a fake citation, ie the name isn't mentioned anywhere on the url cited), and User:The-G-Unit-Boss has protected it. I don't mind if the article is protected, as that will stop people vandalizing it and adding dubious statements, but can someone please at least revert it to this version, which contains up to date citations for everything]. 172.159.155.145 04:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * m:Wrong Version. You may be interested in that article. - Penwhale &#124; Blast him / Follow his steps 04:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The article is only semi-protected, and based on the level of IP edit warring, that was a good call.
 * As administrators, we are not really supposed to pick a "right" version during an edit war. If you believe there is a genuine sourcing problem, I suggest taking it to the Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Please be very specific about your accuracy concerns. -- Satori Son 04:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If it's a content dispute, it's fully protected. Doesn't matter who is edit warring.  Semi-protection is only for vandalism.  — bbatsell   ¿?   ✍  05:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * True enough - my bad. Still, if they have BLP issues, the noticeboard seems the way to go. -- Satori Son 06:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The first step should have been to take it up with User:The-G-Unit-Boss, not come here. EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 06:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I was going to ask him first, but I saw he hadn't made any edits for several hours and I was hoping this could be corrected before waiting until tomorrow. I asked for help with this article 3 months ago here, all I am trying to do is make sure everything in Clive's article follows WP:V and WP:RS. This may seem like a minor thing, but I listen to the show and I haven't heard this caller identified by his full name. I could say I heard Howard Stern phone the show calling himself "Howard from New York", that wouldn't be true but no one can prove it didn't happen, which is why I think citations are especially important for claims about things people heard on the radio. I will try the BLP board later. Thanks for the advice here. 172.216.235.122 06:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Abusive sockpuppetry suspicions
Hi, I've been harrassed by a bunch of sockpuppet accounts vandalising my user page and talk pages:
 * User:Fkpg8
 * User:Diupg8
 * (after an intermission during which my talk page was semi-protected)
 * User:Niuxoi

My suspicion is that the series of sockpuppet accounts are related to User:Peter zhou, based on the facts that:
 * 1) User:Peter zhou has been the sole representative of the opposing side of a dispute on Talk:China.
 * 2) The vandalism started on November 11, and the dispute on Talk:China really got going on November 10: see this and subsequent edits.
 * 3) Since that time, I have not been involved in any other disputes.

I'm wondering if an admin could help me to confirm that these sockpuppets are linked, and moreover whether they are linked to User:Peter zhou. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 05:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Administrators do not have the power to check users. You want Requests for checkuser. -Jéské ( Blah  v^_^v ) 05:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * They have all been indefinitely blocked.-- Sandahl 05:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * okay, thanks - I have submitted a checkuser request there to check the vandal accounts against User:Peter zhou. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There are related SSP cases on this, see SSP on Sumple and the RFCU. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 13:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Massive copyright violations
I would prefer that another admin more well-versed in copyright issues than me check out the history and uploads of. Thanks, east. 718 at 06:28, 11/14/2007
 * All of them should be speedied, IMHO. Max S em(Han shot first!) 07:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * All deleted as copyvios. User appears to be editing in good faith, so I don't want to block, but I will have a word with him on his talk page.  Neil   ☎  10:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Neverpitch (2nd discussion)
User made a personal attack towards me. I added a note to the discussion page that those are not acceptable. I also left a notice on the users talk page. The user then made another personal attack and I left another warning on the users talk page as well as struck out the personal attacks from the AfD page, as that is not relevant discussion, obviously. The user then reverted the strike out (which to me seems like additional personal attacks) so I re-struck them and left a final warning for the attacks. The user then removed the strike outs once again, hiding behind Wikipedia is not censored, which doesn't apply to personal attacks. I'd appreciate it if an admin could re-strike the personal attack comments on the AfD Discussion and have a word with the user. - Rjd0060 07:01, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * User warned and attack removed. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 07:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the speedy response. I'm glad all the admin's dont have a bedtime.  - Rjd0060 07:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Seconding CBW's response, for what it's worth. – Luna Santin  (talk) 09:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I noticed the user has C&P'ed the same "Keep" criteria to many AfD discussion pages, mostly on gaming-related ones. Sounds disruptive to me. JuJube 08:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, he did, after he randomly went through and removed PRODs from multiple articles with those same criteria. His behavior seemed very disruptive, and was noted above :) Collectonian 08:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Detroiterbot malfunctioning
Detroiterbot malfunctioning

Can someone block the bot until it is repaired? See history on San Diego, California to see problem; bot changing information in infobox rather than just changing labels and style, etc. as designed.--Markisgreen 16:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The bot hasn't edited that page. Am i missing something. From its contribs it seems to be working fine. Woodym555 16:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * sorry I put the wrong link, i was looking at both pages, i corrected the link above, it was San Diego not Walla Walla--Markisgreen 16:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Still not seeing it. Got a diff? spryde | <font color="#000">talk  16:52, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think he's talking about San Diego County, California, where the bot made this edit. --Onorem♠Dil 16:56, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You got it. Sorry for misdirection.--Markisgreen 16:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems to be an isolated incident where it got confused with the comma. Looking across it's other contribution randomly, i couldn't find any other problems. The user is aware that it malfunctioned. Woodym555 17:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Its also been inactive for about 3 hours. Mr.  Z- man  18:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Concerns about User:TougHHead
Hello, this user has been constantly adding non notable references to aircraft related articles, particularly F-15 Eagle and F-22 Raptor. . Looking at his contribs and talk page warnings, he has been disruptive as well. Perhaps suggestions would be in order? Thanks. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 01:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Leave me and those users alone. I got banned from Wikia and all Wiki Projects and now not here too. PsiSevereHead and Angela banned me without showing how long I am blocked and finally someone plots to get me banned everywhere.(TougHHead 01:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC))

Perhaps I misread that, I am can tell you that I am not plotting to ban you everywhere. No one is. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 01:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry to interrupt but I have noted a particularly uncivil and intemperate series of exchanges involving TougHHead. The following are recent examples of editwarring: removing an admin's cautionary note, edit war with two other editors, replacing titles established under WP:AIR/PC guidelines, inappropriate edit note, edit conflict and an indication that this is a banned user. FWIW Bzuk 06:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC).


 * Also, this example of blatant vandalism ensued after this admonishment by me to do right in his edit warring. The user appears to be continuing a pattern of bad behavior from his time on Wikia until he was bannished. - BillCJ 07:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * For the record, he's had one short block (which I now understand from Angela should have been longer), and he's now received multiple warnings, so any further disruption, in my opinion, is grounds for a much longer block. When he transgresses again, I'll be happy to take care of it, unless another admin happens to get to it first. A note here would probably be best to keep everyone coordinated.  AK Radecki <sup style="color:#62BB32;">Speaketh  14:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

That block will never happen and I will stop you. I only edit for peace and you guys kept doing edit wars all the time besides Blocks are for people that tries murder. You will leave this peace loving user alone because I don't like people talking about me or having negative concerns about me.(TougHHead 01:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC))

Some peace. And besides, blocks are not for those who "murder". That is their own business. See WP:BLOCK. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 01:20, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Also that This Wikipedia is mostly an American Website because most users are turned out to be Americans like me and finally there is also Freedom of speech.(TougHHead 01:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC))

You have freedom of speech, but your speech is often uncivil and disruptive. User talk:Angela,, not to mention you continue your crusade on F-15 Eagle and F-22 Raptor despite repeated warnings. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 03:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The banishment will never happen and I will stop you no matter the cost. I won't be treated like Banished Dark Templars that had been banished for eons.(TougHHead 06:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC))

I am sorry, TougHHead, but if you want to stop me, please start abiding by our rules, particularly WP:CIVIL. Like this recent edit. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 22:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * TougHHead: The First Amendment gives you the right to say whatever you believe to be true.  It also gives the Wikimedia Foundation the right to not give you a forum to say it in.  Just because you can say it doesn't mean that people have to listen--or that they have to help you say it.  Rdfox 76 00:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It never ends
Why is this allowed? "In 1975, the Treaty of Alvor integrated Cabinda into Angola, but this treaty was rejected by all Cabindan political organizations. These organizations argue that because they had no input on the document, it was, and is, illegal, and therefore does not bind them to Angola. However, according to Perspicacite, Portugal annexed Cabinda from Belgian Congo in 1927" If Alice.S isnt blocked after an edit like that then something is seriously wrong with Wikipedia. Jose João 08:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Is anyone going to seriously dispute that that's vandalism? Not to mention she has followed me onto every other page I edit. Jose João 08:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Apparently she realized her error and fixed it, making sure it linked to my userpage. No doubt, using the logic of most administrators, I should now be blocked for complaining about vandalism. This is of course the logical action to take. Jose João 08:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The other editor was way out of line, but your lack of faith in others is kind of disappointing. <small style="background:#fff;border:#daa520 1px solid;color:#000;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap">east<big style="color:#090">. 718 at 08:40, 11/14/2007
 * This editor has followed me to at least six other articles, restored vandalism to "Rhodesia" four times in one day violating WP:3RR, has kept a mirror copy of my archive despite administrators telling her otherwise, and continues to spam the talkpages of articles I edit with a copy and paste of Wikipedia policies. My faith in this system dried up a long time ago. Jose João 08:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This page is also troubling; I also see that Guy talked to her about it before. <small style="background:#fff;border:#191970 1px solid;color:#000;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap">east<big style="color:#090">. 718 at 09:04, 11/14/2007

...and, yet again, this results in no block. surprise surprise. Jose João 09:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Have you considered that I might be waiting for wider review? Your bad vibes and pushiness isn't really helping you here. <small style="background:#fff;border:#ff8c00 1px solid;color:#000;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap">east<big style="color:#090">. 718 at 09:21, 11/14/2007
 * The last comment is not directed at you. It's directed at the administrators who took no action the last time this happened. Jose João 09:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Problem is, when you say "vandalism," most Wikipedians used to dealing with such issues will go looking for giant penis images, or lots and lots of swearing and caps, not specific historic information -- if somebody is completely unfamiliar with the issues in question, they're going to have a hard time telling right off the bat whether a particular set of claims is ridiculous or not. History of South America is hardly my strong point. Is this user being abusive in ways which would be blatantly obvious, without the need for area-specific knowledge? Ignoring messages, bypassing strong consensus, being combative, and so on. Mainly asking because if so, you should point it out right quick. If they're not, then I'd suggest you find somebody who is familiar with South American history, or try to go through the motions of dispute resolution (requesting sources and debate, and such) just to see how reasonable or unreasonable this person may be -- if they're a troll, they're likely to show their true colors around that point. – Luna Santin  (talk) 09:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why it is so hard to see the abuse here. If user A inserts into the body of any article a derisive remark that "According to user B ..." that is obvious harrassment of user B by user A.  Alice.S inserted "According to Perspicacite ..." into the article — not the talk page, the article itself.  That is way over the line of acceptable behavior.  Why on Earth do we need a subject matter expert to understand that point?  --MediaMangler 09:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ...d'oh, I've been foiled by User:Perspicacite's piped signature. I had the impression that was some third party, another site or such. Taking a second look, but I see east already left a message about it. – Luna Santin  (talk) 09:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a good thing there was an edit conflict just now. I considered posting some "historical information" regarding certain editors in this conversation. Divine intervention from the wikiprophets no doubt. Jose João 09:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Luna Santin's response to a personal attack added to an article was this: Wow. Jose João 09:57, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, actually, it was. I don't block people willy nilly just because you ask nicely. I'm asking her for an explanation because I value hearing both sides of a story before taking action. Now, as East said, your attitude is not helping anything. – Luna Santin  (talk) 10:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks Luna for handling this case. :) -- lucasbfr <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk 10:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There are two sides to a personal attack in an article? Uh, no Luna, there arent. You are right on your second point though, you dont block users based on my asking nicely. You block them based on violations of WP:NPA and WP:VAND. Jose João 10:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It think it's time to take a break here, Perspicacite. Alice was blocked for 24h for other reasons, so you can relax and stand down from needing to guard things. You're a little angry, and I can see why, but you're biting at an administrator who came to this cold and was trying to figure out what was going on. I know you're frustrated, but Luna was taking the time to make sure that any actions she took were just and completely defensible. You would want her to do the same if Alice had come here first complaining about you with a series of differences selected to make you look bad. Assume Good Faith means that, whenever an admin enters the fray, they do indeed need to assume good faith from EVERYONE....which means that while things might clarify rapidly, at the very very start, yes, we do indeed assume that there are two valid sides to the story. --Thespian 10:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I blocked AliceS. for 24 hours. See this note for detail. El_C 10:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I will put in a word for User:Alice.S - Perspicacite/Jose João has a confrontational style, particularly with edit summaries. Alice.S could find no supporting references for Perspicacite's assertions, and, rather than deleting his contributions, attributed them to him. Indeed, not the wisest move, but she provided many references supporting her position. Wizzy&hellip; &#9742; 17:03, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, Alice S. has replied here on her block. SGGH speak! 19:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * While she was undoubtedly right on the content issue, she was wrong to attribute the mistaken edit to an editor in the mainspace, and she is wrong to continue to argue it out as though she has done nothing wrong. I endorse the 24 hour block and have declined her unblock request. She and Perspicacite may need further help to either edit collegially or avoid each other entirely; this is not the first spat between them. --John 19:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * A question for you guys: how is Perspicacite able to intentionally insert unreferenced material over and over with no repercussions. Yet he reports (using a piped sig for disguise, apparently) a relatively new (5 weeks) editor for placing the admittedly point-y "according to perspicacite" into an article he had forced this unsourced material on, and she's 24hr-Blocked? It seems a bit bite-y to me, and very lenient on a persistenly over-aggressive editor. Just my $0.02 ... K. Scott Bailey 01:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Point of information... The information focused here was sourced and referenced, but disputed. I have reviewed the source (on google books) and a graphic in the source (pp 8)  claims what Perspicacite says it does.  I have no grounds to find the source either accurate or inaccurate; our default assumption is that anything which is properly cited and verifyable is includable.  It may be wrong, but it's verifyably in the book / pamphlet / whatever.  If anyone wants to come up with a better source to discredit it, that's fine, of course.  Georgewilliamherbert 01:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * My point about the bite-yness of the block remains. (For the record, I looked at that source on GoogleBooks, and never noticed it, but that's beside the point.) What disruption is this block supposed to "prevent", since blocks are not to be punitive? She changed the "according to Perspicacite" thing on her own, so how is this block justified as "preventative"? I really respect El_C a lot, but I think this block was a mistake, both because it bit the (relative) newby, and because it doesn't appear to have much preventative value. K. Scott Bailey 02:28, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I talked past you. I believe that you have a point; I'm still considering the situation along those lines.  Whatever damage was done is done; I want to make sure that anything I do that follows works to clarify and help and doesn't end up making anything worse.  Georgewilliamherbert 03:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

<---undent
 * So, are you saying that you see the point about the apparent lack of a preventative value for the block? Based upon what I've seen here, the block was improperly placed, as there was no real ongoing concern it addressed and prevented. Alice had reverted her own bad act. K. Scott Bailey 04:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I declined the unblock because I had previously warned them both to avoid each other, and here she was, making the situation worse a few days later. I still see no evidence, through her (two) unblock requests and the other things she has written on her talk page, that she has learned from this. She seems to have it in for one particular user, who also has civility issues. If I saw evidence she has learned to stay away from Perspicacite, I would support an unblock. I see no such evidence. Read her talk page. This block is, on the available evidence, preventive, because from everything we have seen she is prepared to repeat the behaviour. I would love to be proved wrong. --John 05:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The content she added is not inaccurate... per se. She does not know about the history of Angola - this is not an uncivil statement, it is a fact demonstrated by her very edits to the Angolan Civil War article. Portugal did have Cabinda as a protectorate. They later lost it. The Belgians got control and the Portuguese did not regain it until 1927. One point seems to have been ignored in all this discussion. The only reason she edited the article was to pick a fight with me. It's not a coincidence. I'm trying to get it to featured status - she did not come across it coincidentally. I'm disappointed the block seems to have been more about the attack page she created weeks ago and not about the edit she made the other day. The attack page did nothing more than hurt my ego. Her edits to ACW lowered the quality of Wikipedia's articles. A block for a WP:STALK violation would have made more sense, but whatever. I'm not picky. I just want her to stop following me. Jose João 06:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Copyvios on the featured article?
I've no idea where the proper place to raise this is - so please move the thread if this isn't good.

Today's FA, Restoration of the Sistine Chapel frescoes (which is excellent btw) contains a number of composite "before and after" images Image:Sistine Chapel Daniel beforandafter.jpg Image:Sistine Chapel TwoSpandrels.jpg Image:Jesse spandrel beforeandafter.jpg Image:Daniel project 03.jpg - the uploader claims these are PD. Now, there's no doubt that Michaelangelo's' work is PD - and a simple photograph of it is probably too. But, in each of these cases someone has taken a picture before the restoration, and then taken an identical picture after it, and then spiced these into the same image. This is a lot more than a simple collage. That would seem like a creative act - and thus copyright. Maybe it is borderline, but borderline copyvios should not be in a Featured article currently linked from the main page. Should they? If I'm wrong here, I apologise - but I thought the issue worth raising.--Docg 13:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. It's not clear who took the 'after' images and who spliced them together. If the uploader did both, or even just the 'splicing', then there is no problem. But is putting 2 images next to each other without modification an act of creativity? I think your concern rests on the 'after' images, so determining that is the important point. Splash - tk 13:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It isn't just the splicing. Someone took a picture in the Sistine chapel (not hard) - then thought to return months later to the exact same spot and take the same picture - and then (probably he) spliced them together. If I take a series of pictures of my house at different times of the year, and then put them together for comparison - isn't that copyright?--Docg 13:38, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Your house is three dimensional, the art in this case is two dimensional. Reproduction of 2D art isn't re-copyrightable. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 13:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Individually, the pictures are without a doubt not eligible for copyright as faithful reproductions of an artwork. Simply putting two together next to each other wouldn't to me meet the threshold of originality. <font color="#B38F00">henrik •<font color="#AFA29F">talk  13:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think Doc has a point but I do not think it is obvious enough to go after the pictures at the present time. In the US, Bridgeman v. Corel applies to the original photos, and I don't think the act of composing them in a before/after arrangement is sufficiently creative to create a separate copyright (as opposed to say, this).  It's worth seeking additional guidance on, maybe, but not immediate action. Thatcher131 14:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The other point on the photos is that they appear to me to be before and after photos set up by the restorers as a part of the restoration project, and therefore might fall under their copywrite as part of the restoration report/documentation. --Rocksanddirt 00:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If that is the case, these pictures have probably been published somewhere, for instance in a brochure. The Sistine Chapel is administered by the Musei Vaticani, they might know if such a publication exists. A  ecis Brievenbus 00:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There are more than one published books on the restoration, but Bridgeman v. Corel should apply. I also don't see that a simple juxtaposition is creative or original. Whoever made the juxtaposition was clearly aiming at objective & factual reporting, with as little creativity as possible. Johnbod 03:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

AIV backlogged
Hi guys. Administrator intervention against vandalism appears backlogged. • Lawrence Cohen  19:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Again?? Wow - things are busy this morning - A<font color= "#FF7C0A">l<font color= "#FFB550">is o n  ❤ 19:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * School time in America, mostly. Clear now.  E LIMINATOR  JR  19:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Makes me wonder what they're learning if they're still this stupid... HalfShadow 19:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * They're learning how to vandalize Wikipedia, obviously. --Elkman (Elkspeak) 20:01, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

This user deserves a lengthier block than the one he just got handed for 1 week. He has a history of compulsive vandalism over the last year with more than 150 edits. This is his 7th block but he continues vandalising immediately after block expiry. SWik78 20:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This should really be discussed with the blocking admin, User:Delldot, before being reported here. Thanks, Satori Son 20:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

User talk:Wormwood66
Persistent disruptive editing at Winston Churchill - see - Special:Contributions/Wormwood66. The user has not responded to request to stop, and following a 24 hour block imposed for this behaviour has once again repeated his disruptive behaviour. Jooler 23:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * As incrimental blocks simply aren't working, he is now indef block as a persistent edit warrior. <b style="color:green;">IrishGuy</b> <sup style="color:blue;">talk 00:04, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

More Jo Wiley defamation
There's been a whole load more defamation today. I think I previously reported the last outbreak a few days ago, but can't find it on the archive. Please can you consider some form of protection. Thanks -- John (Daytona2 · talk) 23:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Alternatively, you can request page protection at Requests for page protection. — <font color="007FFF">Save_Us _ 229 23:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I missed that, and I looked at the table at the top of the page <g> ! Too tired.... -- John (Daytona2 · talk) 00:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Cody is back again
This guy is persistent, I'll give him that. Banned user has returned yet again. .

other aliases (all blocked as sock puppets)

Jeremy (Jerem43 02:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC))


 * I caught Zombieds and Codyfinke1992 yesterday. <b style="color:green;">IrishGuy</b> <sup style="color:blue;">talk 02:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Another Dereks1x sock looking for a block
Can an admin take a look at this checkuser request where Dmcdevit just returned a likely for a check on for being the 57th sock of  and give Jessica Bell an indefinite block? Evidence of being a sockpuppet is on the checkuser request. Thanks! --Bobblehead (rants) 03:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Indef blocked and tagged. -Jéské ( Blah v^_^v ) 04:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

A newbie casualty of this war
A casualty of the user:Ryoung122 wars (which now includes an attack on the notability of Stephen Coles by the same editors), has been the indefinite blocking of user:StanPrimmer as a sockpuppet, when actually he is at most a meatpuppet. For those of you who've not lately reviewed the difference, see WP:MEAT. Specifically: "As opposed to sock puppets, meatpuppets are actual newbies, and it is important to not bite the newbies." The obvious reason being that newbies do not know what meatpuppets are, either (far less than administrators seem to). Now, Stanley R. Primmer is a newbie and real person (for photo of him and talk he gave while founding the Supercentinarian Research Foundation, see ), and this inconvenient fact was pointed out by to editor user:BrownHairedGirl, who had specifically acccused Primmer of being a sockpuppet for Robert Young. Apparently on no other basis but supporting comments Primmer gave in defence of Young and Coles. Apparently, if you disagree with an administrator and have a new account, that makes you a sockpuppet until proven otherwise, and perhaps without anybody bothering to look one way or the other (as in this case). In any case, user:BrownHairedGirl went to administrator user:Maxim's webpage and asked for a range of Young IP sockpuppet blocks, and included Primmer as a meatpuppet. Whereupon Maxim blocked Primmer as a sock, indefinitely, giving sockpuppetry as the reason  without adequate checking of ISP locations. Wups. The two men (Young and Primmer) are on opposite sides of the country, as their ISP's show. A mistake, and not a good one for an admin (who is supposed to be careful about permanent blocks of nameusers) but perhaps honest. From here on, however, is where things go beyond honest mistake. Editor NealRC and I pointed out that Primmer was not a sock, but a newbie. At this point BrownHairedGirl thanked us, simply characterized him as indeed a meatpuppet, and went so far as to reference WP:SOCK. Apparently not reading WP:MEAT. When I pointed out the obvious difference, I got no response from BrownHairedGirl. My next action was to notify administrator user:Maxim on his TALK page that Primmer was not a sock, but rather, as a newbie, had been blocked by mistake at somebody else's request, and that this was pretty ironic action for people who were afraid of "meatpuppets" (people recruited into an argument!) At least meatpuppets only give unwanted opinions and don't do administrative damage! . Maxim's response was simply to erase my comment from his talkpage, not reply, AND do nothing about Primmer. After the initial block for being a sockpuppet, Primmer had previously been both unblocked and then RE-blocked indefinitely by Maxim, both without stated editorial reason. So it's not as though Maxim didn't think about it. This newbie remains blocked, due to his opinions (which he gave, by the way, in a case involving public notability of a wiki-BIO figure, so it's not as though outside opinion wasn't appropriate). In summary, both editors know what they are doing, and they know it is against policy, having been notified. Neither deign to answer ME. But they did it anyway, because they wanted to, and it got rid of a "disruptive" opinion in two debates (one on Young, the other on Coles) which didn't agree with theirs. I suppose they figure they can let it stand so long as nobody brings it to ANI Now, I've been editing Wikipedia for a while (in fact, a lot longer than either Maxim or BrownHairedGirl !), and I've seen how administrative abuse works. If you leave more than one message on a TALK page you open yourself up to charges of harrassment, and if you're too good at argument someplace else, you find that you're accused of being that nebulous thing which nobody wants to be: "disruptive." The last being a little difficult to use against me, with my rather wide range of constructive and still existant edits, but I know when it's time to leave the matter in the hands of people who can't get stomped on for their views. I've personally done all I can. You have two badly-performing administrators. So, your dead fish. S B Harris 04:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Sbharris has omitted the crucial point here: that Ryoung122 has already used several socks, and is using his Worlds Oldest People yahoogroup to campaign for as many meatpuppets as possible to come and swamp AfDs. I will paste one example below (there are several others)
 * Also, Harris has alleged that other editors (apparently including me) have been "recruiting associates and friends to echo you from among people who are already here". I have asked for the diffs, without success, and if Harris is acting in good faith, I hope that they will now be produced. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There's nothing "crucial" about the point. Meatpuppetry is not a blockable offense. What part of this don't you understand? Second, I'm making an assumption that you're communicating with the group of editors you have going around with you examining geriatrics-related subjects and authors. But it could be mental telepathy, or it could be like a school of fish. I admit it. The difference, however, between this and other kinds of recruiting, is that you're doing it as administrators, and doing joint administrative power-tricks with it, like labeling articles as non-notable and unreferenced, and blocking newbies from fixing their references so they are. That makes it an entirely different thing. Basically, you're using software, not persuasion, to enforce your point of view. S  B Harris 04:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Harris, you really seem to have great difficulty with assuming good faith. I have told you umpteen times that I have not been canvassing or recruiting people, and even though you have no evidence you have assumed maliciously that there must be unseen canvassing: wrong. Wrong, because it's not happening and because it won't happen, because I despise that way of work (WP:CANVASS is particularly stern about "stealth canvassing").
 * So far as I can see, what has happened is simply that my talk page is on the watchlists of a lot of editors, and some of those watching it an/or my contribs list decide to join in the discussions which are referred to there. I have no control over who these people are, or what views they take, and have often found that people who I know to be watching my talkpage join in to disagree with me, which they are quite properly entitled to do. Any communication is taking place on wikipedia talk pages, apart from the emails from those editors who decided (without being approached from me) to forward copies of Young's campaigning emails. Watch my talk page and my contribs list, and you will miss nothing.
 * The semi-protections were applied to articles simply because Young's confirmed sockpuppets were busy editing them. But all these are details; I'm curious that you are full of fury at anyone who does anything to restrain people who abuse wikipedia to promote themselves of their friends and colleagues. That's an interesting arrangement of priorities. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggie_Barnes

I am reminded of the saying by Martin Niemoller:

First They Came for the Jews First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

So, group members: do we really care, or not? If someone 115 years old is not immune to this, then who is? Again, one man is no army. I cannot be the only one standing up for these articles. If you think that supercentenarians are notable, then you all (800+ members) had better make your voices heard, lest it be too late.

Moderator


 * I find it ironic that you assume bad faith in alleging the assumption of bad faith. Are you helping User:StanPrimmer to help us to rectify this mistake? I don't see any actual evidence of that.  I have left a message on his Talk page to try and straighten things out.  Looks like he's being a bit more sanguine about this than you are. Guy (Help!) 12:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Say what? Are you addressing me?? Your questions have been more than answered by now on Primmer's talk page, but for the record, he and I have not communicated. Part of the reason for which is that it is frowned upon for a blocked editor to make their case here on AN/I by proxy, so I was keeping it pure. Are you asking me why I haven't done that? Help Stan to help YOU rectify this mistake?  Why in the wrold would I, or should I, need to do that? I showed it was a mistake; there was no question it was a mistake; and you didn't need Stan's input to figure out that it was a mistake! Do you mean to imply that unfairly-blocked newbies should be helping to fix their own problems on Wikipedia? Guess what-- that's not going to work. The specialty at Wikipedia for stiffling dissent, is to stiffle the dissenters. And it usually works. Robert Young, above, is a pretty good example: not a newbie-- enough experience to put up a good fight. In fact, too good-- good enough that they had to tape his mouth. Not a vandal, not an edit-warrior (until somebody tried to wipe out his presense), but good at lengthy self-defense. So, he obviously must be banned indefinitely, just like somebody trying to destroy Wikipedia. Why, how dare he, after being blocked, use other ISP addresses and sign his name (wups), in order to be heard? Isn't that pretending to be somebody else-- see sockpuppetry? Well, no. It's evading authority, certainly; always a crime. Robert Young's apparently wasting administrative time with his long diatribes, when the administrator is fixated on really *important* editorial subjects, like 2007 Siberian orange snow and the Stanley Cup. While gerontologists and their ilk and their fans --humor :)-- are interested in yucky stuff like why you are getting older, and are closing in on the Grim Reaper. Don't think about it! Administrator user:BrownHairedGirl, for example, as part of what appears to be a crucade against the field, has recently called into question the notoriety of James Birren, one of the founders of geriatric psychiatry (see the page history), and added proscriptions for new editors from editing the Birren page, which still stand. Notwithstanding that she gives no evidence of knowing anything about the subject or the person, and apparently did not bother to read the references the article had, which were entirely sufficient (I recently added a lot more, for the benefit of the lazy, but the information was already there, for anybody). And why the proscription against new editors? Now, consider: what about the practice of adding tags about problems in a Wiki, along with blocks against new editors doing anything to fix the tagged problem? Does that not amount to prosecution of a biased agenda by an administrator who uses administrative powers to block any avenue of academic disagreement? BrownHairedGirl seems to be doing this in connection with any article she can find, on gerontology or gerontologists. Alas, her problem now is that there's a gerontologist who was here before her-- namely me. I suppose from what she posts, the badness is that that many newbies will come into wikipedia from a gerontology mailing list (there are roiling hoards of us-- we outnumber scientologists or even Mormons ;)), and begin editing. Goodness, the Idea that Anybody Could (Potentially) Edit! And (even worse) start Editing For a Specific Reason! Out of interest! See BrownHairedGirl's hair-raising post about this, above. Use of electronic mailing lists in an attempt to undermine Wikipedia, by influencing its content. Great Merciful God, then what? Next time, it might be the English Dept faculty, discussing some screwup or stupid bias in Wikipedia during a luncheon, and joining up as editors, in order to take care of the problem. And then…? Well, then, instead of fighting and ignoring Wikipedia, perhaps the academics will join it en mass. Then, control it. Which may be the real fear, who knows? Meanwhile, the stink about "notoriety" goes on, with biased admins blocking any discussion originating from people who join Wikipedia in order to have a voice in a specific matter! And, you know, Wiki admins function as cops, but unfortunately nobody guards the guards. They're cops without an Internal Affairs Department; one where only volunteer cops look into allegations of bad policing-- if they feel like it. Which has just the result you might imagine (yup, enjoy the TASER). If it weren't for the sunlight which shines on the process every so often in AN/I (sunlight is a good disinfectant), it would stink even worse.  S  B Harris 04:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Sbharris, if you want to rip up WP:COI, WP:SOCK, WP:CANVASS, WP:TPG, and all the other guidelines which Robert Young repeatedly ignored despite countless warnings, then you are entitled to your view. But rather than heatedly posting here about the wickedness of those who have upheld these guidelines, why not see if you find a consensus to delete them? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think what Sbharris is looking for is WP:RFC. The users section. Carcharoth 02:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * An update to this. User:StanPrimmer has now been unblocked by Maxim. I am concerned that Maxim failed to leave a note in the log when performing the unblock, and I've said so on Maxim's talk page. I also fail to see any sign that Maxim has bothered to talk to User:StanPrimmer at all. User:BrownHairedGirl has apologised (she initially alerted Maxim here), but I'd like to clear a few things up here: (1) administrators must use the logs to give reasons for blocks and unblocks; (2) even if someone else alerts an administrator to a potential problem, that administrator must take responsibility for their own actions, and not leave others to apologise instead if it later turns out that apologies are needed. Carcharoth 03:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Not sure if this is the right place to add, but while we're on the topic of R. Young's sockpuppets, user:Cjeales has also been accused of being Robert Young (user:RYoung122). Claiming Stan Primmer of Florida is Robert Young of Georgia (both from U.S.A.) is more understandable in the sense the 2 areas (states) are geographically bordered, but user Cjeales is from United Kingdom, and I don't suspect Robert Young flew a plane to impersonate. Neal 21:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC).
 * Doesn't this remind you a bit of Arthur Miller's The Crucible? Each person in turn who shows up in defense, is accused of being a witch themselves. Lordy. S  B Harris 23:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Hopefully the people involved in this case will in the future (a) be less prone to making accusations of sockpuppetry; (b) learn the difference between sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry; and (c) learn that sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry need to be handled in different ways. Carcharoth 02:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The distinction between a sockpuppet and a meatpuppet is something which may only become clear after investigation, and it seems that these cases are now being sorted out. However, Carcharoth should remember that there was a clear history of sockpuppetry by Ryoung122, and that he was known to be canvassing for meatpuppets to join.  Indeed, I have certainly learnt that some care needs to be taken in differentiating the two, but it remains disappointing that some editors display apparently limitless concern for the feelings of editors who ignore COI and canvass repeatedly and for those who consequently join up with a clear agenda of tipping the balance in discussions, but are very quick to point the finger at the actions of admins who try to deal with the mess created by people who use wikipedia as a vehicle for self-promotion. This is a strange set of priorities, and it's an issue which most real-life organisations deal with rather firmly. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:19, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I was the one who blocked per the duck test. Having received an e-mail where he (more or less) admits to being a meatpuppet, but not a sockpuppet, I'm inclined to trust it, and will unblock (heh, we were specially asked not to WP:BITE recently). That being said, Houston, we have at least one problem at Articles for deletion/Marie-Rose Mueller, which should either be speedily closed as "moot" for canvassing, or carefully analysed by the closer. The Young's off-wiki canvassing is real ugly, and I'm really stunned by how the AfD looks like. Duja ► 07:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * While I am grateful that Duja unblocked me promptly, and I was more than glad to take on board his comments to me regarding the situation leading to the block and so on, I refute the above assertion that I admitted being a "meatpuppet". I looked at the Wikipedia definition of this term and it is defined as "a user solely for the purposes of influencing the community on a given issue or issues acting essentially as a puppet of the first user without having independent views and actual or potential contributions". In no way does this decribe me or my actions, nor did I indicate that to Duja in my email to him. I have contributed to only two AFD discussions. The first was about the article on Robert Young, and centred around notability. I commented that I would like to see the article kept, as I felt he is notable in an emerging field, and indicated I was dissapointed to see the tone of the AFD as it seemed to be getting personal (in hindsight I wish I'd kept my thoughts to myself on that occasion, but hey, live and learn!). The second was an AFD on a supercentenarian, and again centered around notability. I commented that I would like to see it kept as I felt that supercentenarians are notable as they are so rare. If my arguments were weak, or not relevant to wikipedia policy and guidelines, then so be it. But that does not mean I was echoing someone else's opinions, nor doing them a favour by expressing them. That was an assumption on Duja's part (albeit an understandable one I suppose, looking at the big picture). Sorry to have written such a long comment this time, but I find it insulting and belittling to have someone imply that have no "independent views and actual or potential contributions" as this is patently not true. Nor did I enjoy Duja's comments that I admitted to being such a thing. I did not, and there was no need for me to do so. This has been one hell of a tough ride this week, I hope my troubles are over. One thing is certain, I will be taking Duja's advice in future and being a lot more cautious.   Cjeales 16:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Sarvagnya
Please would somebody note the actions of User:Sarvagnya. Edits such as this are clearly disruptive and vandalising yet nothing was done about it and this which shows a clear aim by this user to remove existing content and damaging the encyclopedia - to destroy a whole license which has been previously been authorized and would affect hundreds of articles and then attempting to persuade the authoriser User:Riana at the commons to "nuke them all" on the grounds of his belief it isn't adequate. There is a clear purpose from his recent actions to attempt to erode existing articles related to Indian cinema and destroy the weeks of work and effort from other contributors brnading their work a "pile of garbage". If new editors did all this they would have been blocked. He has excessively tagged many main existing pages with often 4 or 5 different tags to portray the articles as terrible such as the Bollywood article. Addressing tone and ordering references is fine but this editor has gone so far that it is clear he isn't acting in good faith when many articles will be under threat. Is this what people want? He has been warned by an admin before Please avoid making personal attacks. because he personally attacked one editor. But it is time to do something about this. It is rude and it is disheartening to other editors, and is certainly not an environment I want to work in particularly when content is under attack and I am having to continously against my wishes having to become involved in it and try to protect existing content. I haven't got time to waste on people or this sort. I seriously fear that hundreds of articles or going to be degraded in this way and going unnoticed  ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦       "Talk"? 14:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment: How do you qualify this as disruptive? Shouldn't a user be allowed to express his opinion on Wikipedia? So what do you want to indicate? That people who are notifying copy-vios in Wikipedia are damaging it and should be blocked? Nice try.. And if you are complaining about personal attacks, may be you should see this, arse jockeys, eh? -- ¿Amar៛ Talk to me / My edits 17:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Not a bad try yourself there. Now, if someone could address the substantive issues of the user in question's repeated apparently unjustifiably tagging content for speedy deletion, repeatedly adding other tags without any explanation, and the other substantive complaints made here, the discussion might rise above the level of the comment above. John Carter 17:54, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't normally react, count it lucky I didn't react even worse and leave permanently - I was crying out at the same procession of editors following Savagnya in bringing things down and that an ameniable alternative wasn't made from discussion first  ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦       "Talk"? 17:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Lucky, eh? Lets leave out the personal attack business from the discussion... -- ¿Amar៛ Talk to me / My edits 18:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Sarvagnya seems to have developed a bit of a history misusing the speedy deletion template, as per his talk page and elsewhere. Is there any way to formally recommend that such misuse cease. Regretably, he doesn't seem to misuse it often enough to qualify for a block, but he does seem as per his talk page to misuse the template with some regularity. John Carter 16:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Please notify the user of this thread. - Jehochman  Talk 16:49, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * See the above thread Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents Woodym555 16:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC) (threads merged) Woodym555 16:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

This user has been warned many times about this the latest warning about speedying existing articles and images and general disrpution was removed as "nonsense". I don't know what it'll take for him to get the message. He has actually been warned more times than I had previously though see User_talk:Sarvagnya but continues to ignore warning at disruption. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦      "Talk"? 16:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I would ask anyone interested to review the contents of the editor's talk page. Placing all sorts of templates without any justification given, removing verifiable and appropriate content, making legal threats, etc. User seems to have a history of unilateral action without any explanation. John Carter 17:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * blah blah blah.. I made legal threats? Where?  Point out or shut up. Sarvagnya 17:15, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Seeing the editor's talk page would only be like looking at the one side of the coin. If some one is reviewing, I request to review the complete conversation, which could have happened in multiple talk pages. Thanks - KNM Talk 17:09, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If I am misstating the content of User talk:Sarvagnya, my apologies. However, I cannot help but be amused that much of the content of your talk page, and the purpose of this discussion, is your own failure to abide by that principle, given your repeated failure to justify any of the seemingly irrational tagging you so often engage in. John Carter 17:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

(unindent)Much of the content on my page has a history of which you know nothing about. Many a time the allegations are as ill informed and ludicruous as your own here and so I dont even bother replying to those.. that doesnt make those allegations true! So stop shooting your mouth off and making a fool of yourself. If you find the contents on my page amusing, good for you but keep it to yourself. Dont waste people's time on ANI by misrepresenting conversations and slandering others. And next time, do your homework before you come on ANI.

And oh, Blofeld that applies to you too. Before you crib that I reverted or attacked someone, make sure that the user was not a banned troll. Also if you're going to complain that I tagged 'brilliant prose' as nonsense, be ready with a diff to back it up. You're surely not faulting me for removing that gem of a "Bollywood is entering into the consciousness of western audiences" etc., on Bollywood, are you?

Can anybody here say honestly and with a straight face that articles havent improved after I've paid them a visit? Can you say that Zinta didnt improve after the FAC? Can you say that Bollywood hasnt improved in the last 12 hours? The amount of bad faith and witchhunt against me is appalling. This is probably the second such thread in a week. For what? Because I opposed your article on FAC on the grounds that it lacked RS sources?! Sorry, I'd rather clean up non-RS and copyvio cruft on wikipedia than make friends.

If you have a problem with me cleaning up cruft, too bad. You can cry hoarse on ANI.. but its not going to change the way I go about cleaning cruft. And dont make it sound like I've tricked Riana or Yamla or Guy or anybody else into buying my POV over those images. They're sensible and intelligent people too and your insinuations against me are really an insult to them. Blofeld, if you werent wikipedia's 'most productive editor', I wouldnt be dignifying this screed of yours with a response. You should work on assuming good faith and examining the edit and not the editor next time. Nichalp, a bureaucrat, also supported my stance on that FAC. Have you considered opening a thread like this on ANI against him too? Anyway, I'm out of here.. dont expect me to keep replying here. Sarvagnya 17:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah Nichalp I'm wondering when he'll turn up. If you concentrate on adding content and really improving articles I support you 100%. Its when articles are made to look pathetic and hard work attacked and branded as a "pile of rubbish" that I find offensive. Each time I log into wikipedia I find you have gone further and are attmepting to ruin something else or putting articles up for speedy, when I really want to continue with something else. If you got on with adding the content and improving articles like you claim to do which I beleive you are capable in a half ameniable fashion I wouldn't give you a second glance. I don;t know how you expect to systematically pursue your course of actions and not expect anybody to be evne slightly concerned ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦       "Talk"? 18:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Boy.. should I be concerned that people get worked up for no reason? I simply cannot help it.  If people are going to keep taking ill informed stances about me, I cannot help it.  And I didnt make the articles look pathetic.  They were pathetic.  I merely tagged it and brought it to people's attention!  Nothing gives me more joy on wikipedia than writing articles.  But I wouldnt be able to sleep at night if I wrote nonsense like Bollywood.  Writing articles takes time and diligence.  at the moment (as you can see from my talk page), I am too busy in RL to write articles.  I've been working in snatches last few weeks and I only have time to do drive by cleaning.. and that is waht I am doing.  Also when I create articles, I usually create them on notepad and hoist them up in one shot like I've done

here, , here, here, here, here, here and several other places. For that matter, even at this moment, there's a half done article sitting in my sandbox. Those edits obviously get buried in my contrib history and all that someone assuming bad faith can pick out is edits like the one you've chosen to misrepresent here. I usually hate making a case for myself even when I run the risk of being misunderstood, because I see it as vanity. This isnt the first time I've been dragged to ANI nor will it be the last. Only this time, it isnt the usual rank troll who would drag me here. It is you, Blofeld and that is why I'm even bothering to reply.


 * And what do you mean by irrational tagging? I tagged and got dozens of images deleted by dozens of admins and I've been doing it for months now.  So you're accusing all of them of acting in bad faith?  Same with articles.  For your information, there used to be a List of Tamil film clans or some such which I tagged as unencyclopedic.  Another editor, a Tamil himself and one who considers me his sworn enemy supported me, took it further and tagged it for speedy.  And it got speedied.  So that is what I had in mind when I put Bolly clans up for speedy.  Its appalling how people can think that such a list is even encyclopedic!  And stop making up stories like the edit war on Shahrukh had anything to do with my edits on Zinta FAC.  I've explained this before and let me explain again.  If I remember correctly, from SRK I went to AB where again I saw the same non-RS sources.  From there I clicked on several Bollywood articles and all of them turned out the same.  So I went to WP:INB to leave a message where I saw your message about Zinta FAC.  It was from there that I landed on the Zinta FAC.  You led me there! Sarvagnya 18:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Look that Bollywood article did have some misleading statements -thankyou for identifying them. Statements such as "Bollywood is generally making a breakthrough in the west" or whatever it was is a dreadful generalization to make in an encyclopedia article - its not about that -we both know there is some bad text in a number of articles. Many of the Bollywood articles need serious work to address comments and bad references and if this improves and eventually builds content this would be ideal. However, it is the way that you conduct yourself and your course of action that I am concerned with with little regard to the concerns and protests of others time and time again and it is clear you look on many editors and their work with disgust and in a condesending manner.. Now I have done no real editing on Bollywood articles at all, in fact my only editing there has been with adding film posters or templates and cast sections on existing film articles rather than actors. However terrible you think articles are, you just don't make decisions to nuke articles with no consensus with other editors and however terrible you think an article is ,you most certinaly should not discourage anybody who attempts to add constructive content to this encyclopedia. You keep claiming good faith, but how can your continous disregard for the genuine efforts of hard work, whether it is in article content (or with images which I helped with) be acceptable. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦      "Talk"? 19:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment - He has been warned by an admin before Please avoid making personal attacks. - No, that user who warned is not an admin. Also, the user on whom Sarvagnya is alleged to have made a personal attack appears to be an obvious sockpuppet, and his edit in the same page was reverted back by admin. - KNM Talk 17:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Either way, within minutes of the edit war and vandalism here on the Shahrukh Khan article, when his edits were reverted within minutes he influenced the Preity Zinta FA nomination by declaring "strongest possible oppose" as a response. This is when this user came to me attention as I was rather surprised at how it seemed to be overly degrading. Follwoing each of these events his close friends such as KLF turn up to offer their support. Nobody seems to be notice the misconduct here -this is what worries me. Would somebody please see the edits here and how entire paragraphs of article being removed and branded as nonsense  ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦       "Talk"? 17:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Influence?? What do you mean by influence? The article did not pass the GA review, because the lead editors could not address the review comments. Why do you want to make Sarvagnya as the scape goat, when the lead editors inability to move the article to a GA was the reason for the failure? Didn't you see the page history of Preity Zinta after the GA review, where a lot of cleanup is in progress? Please be more objective than trying to put in your opinions... -- ¿Amar៛ Talk to me / My edits 17:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It is possible for such a profound statement as "strongest possible oppose" to sway votes, even if that "swaying" is accurate. It is also legitimate to point out that the party seems to have certain "tag-alongs" or "defenders" who appear shortly after the initiatior himself. And I don't find a User:KLM. Was Blofeld perhaps referring to User:KNM, who has posted here already? John Carter 17:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello Mr. Carter, may I point you to the history page of the Preity Zinta article to show you the clean up happening after the FA review. This is ample evidence that the article did not deserve to be an FA. What do we want next? Half baked articles being promoted to FA? Please... "Tag-alongs" and "defenders"? Would User:Shshshsh and Mr. Blofeld be an example of what you call as "Tag-alongs" and "defenders", since they seem to edit together? -- ¿Amar៛ Talk to me / My edits 18:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I used the example because it seemed highly suspicious and quite a coincidence that is occurred within minutes of that conflict. That article had some issues which have nothing to do with this editor. Now please don't try to justify all of his latest actions as good faith, it is clear he has gone beyond this. I am amazed how the same group KNM and Amargg turn uo in the same succession everytime to run to his aid  ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦       "Talk"? 17:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Exactly Blofeld. Exactly! Shahid  •  Talk 2 me  17:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

This is quite serious, worse than i thought.This article was vandalised and emblazened with a "hoax" tag and he received a warning about this. This is a serious threat to our encyclopedia on major articles such as this. The question is are people happy to let him undertake such actions to our articles? ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦      "Talk"? 17:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * All that tag summarily says is "The truthfulness of this article has been questioned.", which is perfectly fine for an article like in that state, where there is absolutely no references (not even single citation), and when a long-standing editor has concerns over its truthfulness. Looking from the positive perspective, that edit would only help bringing the article into a better shape by having references, inline citations and removing the original research. Once we start assuming bad faith on an editor, everything from him/her will be start appearing as -ve contributions to Wikipedia. Thats the whole purpose of, WP:AGF. - KNM Talk 17:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, such, potentially conscious, misstatements of fact are themselves troubling, particularly from an editor who so frequently seems to rush to defend the editor in question. I presume you didn't bother to read the second sentence of the template, "It is believed that some or all of its content might constitute a hoax." Such distortions of fact for the purpose of defending actions could themselves be seen as being potentially problematic. And perhaps the editor could explain on what basis clearly and specifically alleging something is a hoax without foundation can be counted as being acceptable. John Carter 18:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What distortions and what potential problems are you talking about John? Do you see any references in that article? One single reference at least for it's sake? What is the notability of that err...committee? I believe Sarvagnya was well within his rights to tag the article as hoax. There is no distortion or misrepresentation here. Things are just fine. Gnanapiti 18:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, yes. By any stretch of imagination, I cannot see that as a vandalism. Perhaps I must request you to see WP:Vandalism. Thanks - KNM Talk 18:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Look you know that my main concern is to improve article content and quality this is why I am here. Often sources and tone does need addressing yes but if you exmaine the course of actions over the last fortnight the actions and attitude of this person which is pretty obvious in this disccusion you'll see why I am concerned. Now it has become plainly obvious these edits are not done in good faith. How can anybody possibly justify the edits and behaviour identified as in good faith? ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦      "Talk"? 18:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This whole complain thing is nothing but trolling. Not even one legitimate diff to back the complaints. All I see are incomplete complaints about personal attacks, hasty lies about legal threats and not so wise ways of looking at things. Tagging hoax for that completely unreferenced article was absolutely fine and well within wikipedia polices. And you wanted Preity Zinta to qualify as an FA? That would be a dishonor to all other well deserved FAs. I know what's coming next. Keep them coming, only if at all I need to reply. Gnanapiti 18:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No, there is also the matter of the absolute refusal to address valid points on the part of those who are defending the subject of this thread by attacking those who have commented on his misconduct, and the clear evidence on his talk page of possible repeated abuse of the speedy delete template. It would be interesting to see if anyone will actually directly address that matter. As they seek direct evidence, I would point to the following threads from his talk page:


 * User talk:Sarvagnya (possibly legit),
 * User talk:Sarvagnya (in which hoax and OR tags were placed without any comments made to justify their being placed),
 * User talk:Sarvagnya (in which the party removed cited material without any discussion),
 * User talk:Sarvagnya (removed a reference without any apparent prior discussion),
 * User talk:Sarvagnya (removing cited material without discussion again),
 * User talk:Sarvagnya (regarding tagging articles),
 * User talk:Sarvagnya (in which the party is suggested as possibly "causing more edit wars of this kind"),
 * User talk:Sarvagnya (again adding tags without seemingly bothering to indicate why),
 * User talk:Sarvagnya (another reversion of information),
 * User talk:Sarvagnya (reverting again),
 * User talk:Sarvagnya (yet another complaint about sources, with allegation of a "jehad" from the Karnataka workgroup),
 * User talk:Sarvagnya (yet more reversions),
 * User talk:Sarvagnya (being told about misuse of the speedy deletion tag),
 * User talk:Sarvagnya needed (regarding personal attacks),
 * User talk:Sarvagnya (marking templates for speedy deletion),
 * User talk:Sarvagnya (again regarding tagging images for deletion),
 * User talk:Sarvagnya (in which an admin questions the suggestion for speedy deletion and warns that going admin shopping when he can't accept a decision won't work), and
 * User talk:Sarvagnya (changing a cited quote without discussion). Rather a longish list. I would welcome any defense of the complaints individual, but I also believe that the sheer frequency and repetitive nature of them are more than sufficient for this editor's actions to merit scrutiny. John Carter 18:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps incidentally, Sarvagnya has archived all the discussions above. Here is the permalink to the talk page before archival. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 03:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * User talk pages represent only one side of the issue and I had expected an experienced editor like you to realize this already. More legitimate and trustful would be actual diffs of misconduct and any further discussions done on the issue, if you have any. Gnanapiti 19:05, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but about three of those are explicit statements from admins about misusing the template. I note that once again no direct responses regarding points made are forthcoming from the subject's apparent allies. And I think it can be understood that the sheer weight of allegations of misconduct regarding this party from both admins and regular editors can be seen as being at best reason to question the actions of the editor, particularly when they come in such rapid proximity to each other. John Carter 19:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah I wondered when Gnanapiti would turn up, Sarvagnya gave you an award didn't he. Has anybody noticed that so far all editors supporting him are from the same close group from India  ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦       "Talk"? 18:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I just want to point out that I normally stay far away from such discussions as possible and have never reported an existing user before. However over the last weeks it has become plainly obvious the actions of this user are disruptive time and time again to the point I have become shocked-and he has a clear attitude problem in ignoring these warnings as nonsense which is very disappointing from a user who I feel has the ability to constructively edit this encyclopedia. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦      "Talk"? 19:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding non-RS. Previously, on the Shahrukh Khan page, Sarvagnya came from nowhere and started removing references and placing fact tags instead. A few days ago, I requested Sarvagnya to turn always to the article talk page and list his non-RSes there. Because it definitely can be subjectve, and every source can be proven as RS. This is a debatable case. That's why removing references without prior discussion is unacceptable.


 * Regarding tags. It is very hard to work when tags are being added. Yes, as Sarvagnya said, the Bollywood article has improved (I have cleaned up), but not because of these tags. It is also subjective, and again, if he has a reason to place these tags there, he must provide his reason on the article talk page with explanations. If you say, it reads like a magazine, so you probably have examples, so why not intrduce them on the discussion page? I've cleaned up the Bollywood article and it had a major tone down. Yet, I forgot to remove the tags. The only important thing is to discuss things before making drastic edits (and these were drastic), and then act further. Best regards, Shahid  •  Talk 2 me  19:30, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

image again is a blatant copy vio and I'll be putting this image for deletion soon. If you guys have problems with this image getting deleted, please fix the license now. Gnanapiti 20:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

That image has nothing to do with the Bollywood blog agreement. It is isn't from that site. I can get a replacement  ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦       "Talk"? 20:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

comment I think Blofeld should take this discussion off ANI and workout the issues on each other talk pages.thanks Dineshkannambadi 20:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Now Dineshkannambadi is a clearly constructive editor who I have a lot of respect for. All I want is for articles and images to be secure and not under attack so I can continue editing in peace and not be concerned hundreds of articles are going to be chopped up  ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦       "Talk"? 21:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

All this guy needs is some serious lessons on consensus to stop speedying or attempting to delete existing content without real justification and in doing so try to treat other editors with an ounce of respect  ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦       "Talk"? —Preceding comment was added at 22:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I fully agree on the consensus part. This user has a history of unilateral removals, massive rewrites, POV pushing, as well as calling disagreeing edits "BS". See Talk:Tolkāppiyam, Talk:Tolkāppiyam, and Talk:Tolkāppiyam for example. He has not responded to my query regarding his removal of cited info here despite a reminder. He has been warned several times by different admins and has been reported here on more than one occasion. His violations have been mostly borderline and his disruptive edits are interspersed with good edits making it difficult for stronger action. I seriously wish that he be more amenable to discussions and NPOV, and stops using rude edit summaries. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 04:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * As I have said elsewhere, user:Sarvagnya is the rudest editor I have had the depressing privilege of encountering on Wikipedia. I have reported him once on ANI (see here) and once on Wikiquette Alerts (see here).  In each case, the attending admin/volunteer (user:Samir and user:Bfigura respectively) warned him on his talk page, but to little avail.  However, what is more worrisome for me are his "cohorts."  These editors: especially, user:KNM and user:Gnanapiti, but also a few others like User:Dineshkannambadi and Amar seem to turn up, all at once, on different pages, especially when on or the other is in an edit conflict.  They have in the past been accused of colluding and at least two of them, user:Sarvagnya and user:Gnanapiti were once asked to not edit the same articles by the presiding administrator at RFCU.  Perhaps, it is time for an admin to step up and issue user:Sarvagnya (and the others) more than just a mild warning.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  16:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Dineshkannambadi has over 10FA's to his name,calling him a cohort is nothing short of a dastardly personal attack. I instituted the original checkuser, but was told by that the two were not the same and have noted their contributions to Kannada history and Indian related items on wiki. Reporting someone on Wikiquette/ANI doesnt make you a concerned observer, it makes you a whiner looking for attention ready to waste time with bureaucracy. Baka  man  04:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Some fascinating links which the above user recently directed me to suggests that he thinks civility is overrated anyway, so perhaps his comments on personal attacks and Wikiquette should be taken in that light, and irrelevant to the conversation. Relata refero 06:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * PS. The cohort's continuing to add the official Indian honours and decoration template to a private literary award, the Jnanpith Award (see history here) is but the latest example of such collusion.  It is the equivalent, as I say on that page's talk page (see here) of adding the Booker Prize or the Whitbread Award alongside the Victoria Cross (if one made such a template for Britain.)   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  16:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * False analogy. The jnanpith has no equivalent of similar effect in the US. Baka man  04:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I see no analogy to the US. Relata refero 06:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I think Fowler&Fowler is trying to pile on to someone else's ANI complaint, be opportunistic and push in his views too. If he has any issues, I suggest he take to a different forum. This is his new method to gain some mileage, after his straw polls lost popular appeal.Dineshkannambadi 16:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "Straw polls lost popular appeal." Really?  user:KnowledgeHegemony, user:Blacksun, user:Ragib and are against mentioning the Kannada writers on the India (culture section).  Who do you have on your side?  That is, in addition to the cohort?   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  16:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Theres a lot more to it Sarvagnya than me being miffed at wasting weeks of work and effort. It is not just a response at your clear "good intentions" to remove copywright or bad sources or POV. What deeply concerns me is your attitude and clear disrespect for other editors and wish to delete content including valid content or over tagging articles to suit your own needs and not listening to at least the 15-20 warnings you have had form many editors. Your attitude is diabolical -your edit summaries show this. It really has shocked me how such a spiteful tone can come across on the web. Everytime he responds its like being spoken by a hissing snake spitting poisonous venom at you <font style="color:#fef;background:black;">♦ Sir Blofeld ♦     <font size="-4"><font color="Black">"Talk"? 18:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Fowler&fowler completely with everything he's said, "seem to turn up, all at once, on different pages, especially when on or the other is in an edit conflict." - Exactly. they all seem to interact in some ways to enforce their opinions on others. Both these users (Sarvagnya & KNM) went to User:Spartaz to ask for my block initially, providing false claims and false diffs of "3RR" violation. First came Sarvagnya, and then, from nowhere, came KNM to support him. They appear always on different pages at the same time, when one of them is in troubles, or as said, in edit conflicts. A few days ago, KNM and I had some edit conflict on Preity Zinta's page (The reasons are clear, but it's irrelevant here), and suddenly, from nowhere came Sarvagnya, reverting my edits (just from nowhere!):, reverting my edits without even being aware of the issue. It has always been like this. Even the Preity Zinta GA reassessment. KNM nominated it for GA review, and within 30 minutes (even less), all of the above mentioned users voted to delist it. How can it be possible? It's impossible! And it's only a little example of many more. Oh and don't forget the quick and sudden appearance of these users here. Please do something. It's tiresome. Shahid  •  Talk 2 me  18:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Let's stay on topic here. We've suddenly gone on a tangent discussing our problems with particular editors. Nishkid64 (talk) 18:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, part of the problem seems to be that these editors seem to have a consistent,predictable way of almost instantly jumping to each others defense. This could be seen as a possibly consistent attempt on the part of these editors to game the system. I would acknowledge that some editors do show an interest in defending others, but the apparent consistency and regularity of all these editors appearing whenever any of their numbers is challenged could potentially be a concern, as such conduct could be seen as being at least potentially very problematic. John Carter 18:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Like how? Like you jump to Blof's defence or blof jumps to shahid's defence?  Or like how blof got "25 votes" piled on in double quick time on a FAC where the article didnt have one RS-source in sight?  Or like when you guys got together to pile it on on an AfD and even close it within hours of opening it and not even bothering to leave the customary notices at India deletion project etc.,.  Or how he gets the likes of you and Shahid to support him when he uploads copyvios by the hundreds?  huh.  Sarvagnya 19:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * None of which actually addresses the point made above, though. John Carter 19:36, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What's your point anyway? Or is there any point? Gnanapiti 20:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Can you confirm that every image on that site is copywrighted except the screenshots or promo photos? You still haven't answered on how you think they obtain often twenty to thirty images of an event within hours of it occuring. If such images were copywrighted I seriously doubt they would have twenty or thirty differnet photos, different angles of people etc available and have it organized so quickly. You;ll believe what you want to, and manipulate things and people to make sure you get your way. As John said this is very worrying for wikipedia <font style="color:#fef;background:black;">♦ Sir Blofeld ♦      <font size="-4"><font color="Black">"Talk"? 20:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Aren't you guys already talking about those images in length? Drag the discussion here too? No please! Gnanapiti 20:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

- In the past few months has appeared to have been running an unauthorised blocking bot and an unauthorised deletion bot under their main account. These bots may be doing a good purpose but I must complain about this as there has been other sysops who have been blocked and had their rights took away. for example. I don't see why one admin should be allowed to have unauthorised blocking and deletion bots when another hasn't. Please inform me if I have made a mistake here. The sunder king 21:13, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Everybody knows this...<font color="2D80F2">Qst 21:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * See User:Curps, he was a block bot (although still a user), he made over 26,000 blocks during his time here. <font color="2D80F2">Qst 21:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict x2) Betacommand didn't get desysopped for running an unauthorized bot. They are two different situations. In many ways, it is one of those "as long as it ain't broken, don't fix it" situations, IMO, such as the Curps blocking and rollback bot a while ago. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed, the community generally takes a laissez-faire attitude towards adminbots as long as they aren't disruptive. Misza13's bot has been running for quite a while, performing a useful service without disrupting the project -- krimpet ⟲  21:23, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The resolved wording is a bit insulting... the Betacommand decision included a "Admins should not run bots on their sysop account that are enabled to perform sysop actions (blocking, deleting, etc) without specific community approval from Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval and/or WP:RFA". It can hardly be a mistake to actually think that would be fairly applied. --W.marsh 22:48, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Arbcom rulings only apply to the case they are part of and do not set policy or precedent. Sometimes rulings follow established convention or the consensus of the time and sometimes rulings lead the establishment of consensus, which later coalesces around the ruling, but consensus can change.  If it is the current consensus that adminbots are OK, then that supercedes the ruling.  Maybe an admin RFC should be opened to determine what the current situation is? Thatcher131 00:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Bot policy is policy though. "Prior to use, bots must be approved at Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval", "Administrators should block bots if they are unapproved"... I mean, my point is just that it's reasonable for someone to be surprised that everyone's all apathetic about an unapproved adminbot. --W.marsh 01:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Generally agree but since this seems to be a tolerated open secret, it should probably go to a bot talk page somewhere or an admin RFC, rather than directly blocking Misza at this time. Thatcher131 01:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If the only reason it's a problem is "But... but... it's policy!" then it doesn't seem to be a problem... is this bot causing any harm to the project? – Luna Santin  (talk) 05:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Please don't try to mock me for pointing out what policy is. I didn't say either way what I think we should do here... I'm just explaining what policy says. --W.marsh 13:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * A user running an unapproved bot on his own account takes the full responsibility of the edits made by the account. The way I read the Bot consensus is that bots must be approved if they need the bot flag, or run under a separate account. Most of us sometimes perform AWB runs to fix things under our accounts. -- lucasbfr <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk 10:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The Curps block-bot was not in line with the bot policy, but it was still reasonable in the exceptional circumstance that we had. Curps had gone through several precautions to minimize any accidental collateral damage, such as posting an automated ANI message asking for a quick unblock if the block was mistaken. At the time, rapid fire page-move vandalism was a major problem for us, and breaking a policy in order to attack that problem can be justified by pointing to the emergency we had at the time. A single fling of vandalism with 6 vandal accounts could take an hour to clean up and to check that no mistakes with accidental article deletions had been made in the process. Sjakkalle (Check!)  14:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Long-term abuse by ROHA
A person using a variety of anonymous IPs has made racist and incivil comments in Talk:Cat Stevens. EG a comment on another wikipedian being a Jew,,. The person identifies himself as "Hans Rosenthal" (coincidentally, the same name as a holocaust survivor and television personality) or ROHA. A few (but not all) mentions of previous misconduct can be seen in: December 2005, same incident mentioned elsewhere some of the IPs involved, August 2005, February 2006. Does such a user need any more warnings, or should they get blocked? Andjam 01:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Have they been busy recently? Those examples are from a while back and ROHA has always been on a shifting IP so there's little point in blocking. The article was semi-protected in OCtober because of their edits. Just remove the remarks from the talk page. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 07:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, the recent comment on Talk: Cat Stevens which was specifically directed at me was on October 14, and it remained there until yesterday - I thank Andjam and Raymond Arritt for objecting to it, and Raymond's removal of it, but the problem seems to me to be deeper than the temporary semi-protection on Cat Stevens, as this gratuitous and unmotivated anti-Semitic comment was on the Talk page which of course wasn't protected - and the article's sprot has since expired. Perhaps the sprot should be made permanent, or much longer-range which might deflect his attention - ROHA has disrupted there before, but he has done so in other places as well, and that wouldn't have stopped his attack  on the talk page anyway.


 * I see a similar discussion going on below about a different IP abuser.  Maybe it's time to rethink IP editing if you're not willing to range-block because of worries about collateral damage to innocent editors who use the same IP range.  ROHA freely gives his email address, for example - why can't the Foundation's lawyers step in and  try to deal with him at that level?   Where is the protection against harassment of good faith editors?


 * If you'd like some more diffs about this person, try here and here. There are more disruptive edits too.  Yes, these are old, but that's the point: he's been doing this for years, but now it's gotten personal.  I am asking for something more to be done about this abuse. Tvoz | talk 07:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I just found this discussion. Maybe it will help to know, there have been several incidents with a user "Hans Rosenthal" using the name ROHA on :de Wikipedia. Among other statements he clearly states that he is allways using the name ROHA ("Mein Kürzel ist stets ROHA." ). ROHA claimed to be "invulnerable" and will continue as a IP ("ROHA: "Ich bin nicht angreifbar. Weiter unter IP." /I'm invulnerable and will continue as IP). His account was blocked on :de indefinite for being a troll-account (see ). He is listed in several :de users'"vandallists", eg. :de admin's de:Benutzer:PDD. The related IP range had to be blocked repeatedly. A request on the :de administrators' noticeboard for detailed info on him (German) shows that he is clearly considered a serious vandal and edit warrior by the admins on :de. I would therefore recommend extreme caution. In this case AGF didn't work out on :de for quite a while. Regards. --Nemissimo 15:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Cool Hand Luke is harassing me
After an ArbCom where Cool Hand Luke was on the losing side, he is now trolling my edits and reverting edits that satisfy all guidelines. I ask that he be spoken to and desist from harassing me. This is becoming a problem. --<font color="#0000C0">David <font color="#0000C0">Shankbone  16:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This is absolutely untrue. I've followed the entire debate, and the only reason CHL got involved with Shankbone again, is that Shankbone was once again editing biographical information about a person with whom he has had a very heated on-wiki conflict. The only harassment here has been Shankbone's steadfast refusal to let it go, even though the editor in question is long gone from the project. Shankbone has now done an interview for Wikinews in which he raises inflammatory allegations about one of this editor's colleagues (i.e. allegations of extramarital affairs), and is linking it to that person's BLP. CHL reverted that link, and that's the extent of his so-called "harassment". I can think of half a dozen reasons why Shankbone shouldn't be adding that link (RS, BLP, COI, WEIGHT, EL, OR), and he's reverted 4 times in 3 days. ATren 16:36, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Please provide some diffs. Jeffpw 16:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ATren is the other person who was involved in the ArbCom dispute. In fact, if you look at this version of his User page he has a lengthy diatribe about me and the ArbCom case.  So we have two people who were on the losing side of an ArbCom now harassing me.  --<font color="#0000C0">David <font color="#0000C0">Shankbone  16:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There was no "losing side" as the case was dismissed. Please show diffs of the edits so we don't have to go fishing through all of both of your recent edits and guess where the problem is. Thatcher131 16:52, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Every finding of fact was working out against THF, and CHL and ATren were arguing his side. It was only dismissed because THF left the project. --<font color="#0000C0">David <font color="#0000C0">Shankbone  17:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If you really want to dig up that case: (1) I was not "involved". I participated in the debate, because I felt strongly that a good editor was being hounded for his views. (2) At the time the case was closed, the only proposed negative finding that got 6 votes was the one that discussed your behavior. (3) When I defended THF in that case, you harassed me by repeatedly bringing up a completely unrelated dispute from well over a year ago - harassment that went on for several weeks even though I asked you half a dozen times to stop. Shall I go on? David, I've tried to ignore you, even though I very strongly disagree with your attitude and approach here, but when you continue to add questionable material to THF's bio, even though many respected users have asked you to stop, that's when I feel compelled to get involved again. When are you going to let this conflict die? ATren 17:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I added no questionable material to anyone's bio. Ever.  And you were very much involved the ArbCom case, ranting and raving. There was only one finding of fact against me--that I could have handled my pursuit of THF better--and it was one I had admitted to going into the ArbCom.  --<font color="#0000C0">David <font color="#0000C0">Shankbone  17:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm done with it. Do whatever you want, and when someone else objects you can dig into their edit histories and attack them with it. You are engaging in the exact same behaviors that you supposedly "admitted to going into arbcom", except that now you're targetting CHL and me as well as THF. It's obvious what's going on here, and I will not be chased off like THF was. I'm disengaging. ATren 17:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You can continue to make preposterous allegations (I remember you calling the ArbCom a kangaroo court) with no basis in reality. I'm the one being trolled and reverted here, not you.  --<font color="#0000C0">David <font color="#0000C0">Shankbone  18:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The case was dropped because THF had been harassed off wikipedia by you David. Then THF made the mistake of thinking that wikipedia policies ment what they said, which they don't if you have friends like newyorkbrad. <font color="#000">(<font color="#c20">Hypnosadist )  13:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

See also the discussion on my Talk page. Raymond Arritt 17:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The only thing I'm asking for is for Cool Hand Luke and now ATren, two people who were unsatisfied with the ArbCom as it didn't work out the way they wanted, to stop trolling my edits and reverting me. This is harassment.  If they have a problem with one of my edits, broach it with an uninvolved admin to take a look.  It's really that simple.  But neither of them have a clear head coming out of the ArbCom.  --<font color="#0000C0">David <font color="#0000C0">Shankbone  17:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Could you provide some diffs to show the edits in question? You have a lot of edits, to your credit, but that makes it hard to sift through your edits and theirs to correlate a pattern of stalking/trolling. If you can provide a few diffs, that would help everyone who's trying to get to the bottom of this. Thanks! Arakunem Talk 19:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The situation is at and is also being discussed at WP:BLPN. Briefly, Shankbone conducted an interview with Craig Unger, author of two books on the Bush administration, and posted it at Wikinews. He then linked to the interview at Paul Wolfowitz,, which some editors including Cool Hand Luke, objected to. Thatcher131 19:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

It strikes me as seriously problematic that David has created this content and linked it from the article. As I understand it, no independent editorial party has ever evaluated this content. As basically unreliable material, we should seriously question linking this at all, let alone giving it a privileged position simply b/c it is on a sister site.

Aside from those general concerns, this interview strikes me as uncritical and an example of poor journalism. In short I hardly agree that David's edit "satisfies all guidelines." Christopher Parham (talk) 20:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The "poor journalism" argument is misguided. An interview is not always set up to challenge a person, but can also be to record their views.  Here, we have a renowned journalist who has been a contributing editor, editor-in-chief or deputy editor of major publications.  The idea was to talk about his book, not challenge him on it.  That does not make it "poor journalism".  --<font color="#0000C0">David <font color="#0000C0">Shankbone  21:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * In fact, Shankbone added the link to 8 or 10 articles about conservative people and organizations, and Cool Hand Luke removed it from two, Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas J. Feith‎, which seems to be the basis of the "stalking" claim. Thatcher131 20:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I picked out only the BLPs, where the Wikinews link had already been removed by other editors and reinserted by David. People inserting information into BLPs bear the burden of justifying it, and these links looked like a BLP issue to me. I did not revert his work or hassle him for the sake of it. I just pulled out the narrow subset that looked like a serious problem. This is not frivolous or harassment. Many users seem to agree that the edits were questionable. Cool Hand Luke 22:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the page history, there is edit warring without use of the article talk page. That is inappropriate behavior. I've protected the page in question temporarily. If consensus is reached on the subject of the edit war, any admin can unprotect. GRBerry 21:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Another weird legal edit
Got another weird one. After the legal threat last week, I'm a little warry about this one. An IP user has blanked a redirect for the acronym PIPC, claiming that it's a registered trademark, and they will be making reports to the US Patent office if the redirect is continued to be used to point to an unrelated organization. Really hard to tell if there is any validity to the issue. I'm not really certain what, if anything, needs to be done now. Maybe just a few more admin eyes on the redirect in case something blows up here. - TexasAndroid 21:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a crock. The patent office has nothing to do with trademarks in the first place, and the use of the trademark is fair use when referring to it in this matter.  Block the User for making legal threats, and move on.  Corvus cornix 21:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've put a WP:LEGAL warning on the anon's Talk page. Corvus cornix 21:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You're right that the claim is a crock, but you're wrong about the patent office: the full name of the organization is the United States Patent and Trademark Office. --Carnildo 23:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Just an update, this appears to be far from over. More updates this morning on the PIPC redirect, including continued trademark claims. Thanks to those who jumped in to deal with it. - TexasAndroid 17:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I am asking that an administrator enforce the conditions laid upon Cladeal832 for constantly reverting articles with no rationale. I reported Cladeal and his/her sockpuppet/meatpuppet, an anon user, and was kindly helped by GTBacchus. Refer to these pages for GTBacchus' response: User talk:Charles, User talk:Cladeal832 and User talk:GTBacchus and also Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive325. Currently, the user is still reverting without posting again to the talk pages, saying that I am not following the administrator's advice, which I have been doing. In an effort to preserve peace and maintain this articles, I ask that this user be dealt with according to the conditions/consequences already laid out. He/she has not shown him/herself to be willing to discuss anything beyond saying "there is nothing wrong with my edits", essentially, ignoring all discussions thereafter. Note the differences at GTBacchus' talk page after the user was warned to discuss edits. He/she simply reverted after without discussing them, yet calls on me to discuss them (which I have done). I do not want to engage this individual in edit warring. I would like to see him or her dealt with. Charles 22:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Really get a bit sick of my best buddy Charles here. The guy will not let up. He keeps tracking my edits, adds unnecessary edits, then goes to every adiministor he can find, then one responds to just discuss it on the article Talkpage, and stop edits, but instead just reverts edits anyhow. I would like Charles dealt with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cladeal832 (talk • contribs) 22:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have not been stalking the user's edits. Obviously, he or she has been stalking mine as he or she found his- or herself here three minutes after I posted. I have some 1300 pages on my watchlist. Almost all of them (about 98%) are royalty articles and I check most changes in my watchlist in an effort to combat vandalism and the like. When the ancestry charts were first created, I and others began implementing them and either then or after, the names in them have been adjusted to reflect the standard at WP:NC(NT). Cladeal's petty reversions amount to vandalism on a consistent, bothersome and sad basis. I have followed the administrator's advice of explaining my edits on the talk pages but have not been treated to the courtesy of discussion. Cladeal simply reverts the changes and says anything along the lines of "this is better" or "this is consistent" when there is absolutely no rationale for such. "Consistency" is brought with the naming conventions I have cited and it also reflects the article names (generally the simplest and shortest way of linking). It states that kings, emperors and their consorts are named Name (Ordinal) of Place and that all over royals are Title Name of Place or Name, Title of Place (if holding a substantive title). I have explained this but with no response from the other user. Charles 22:38, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, for the purposes of this report, the previously mentioned anonymous user,, is active again. Charles 03:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

What's wrong with a redirect? Cladeal832 04:28, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * For the record, the exact same question asked by the anon user on a number of talk pages. As I explained elsewhere, there isn't a problem with redirects, but they are bypassed if possible and especially where the case warrants it, such as applying titles and ordinals to individuals where it is not warranted and contravenes naming conventions for the sake of "consistency". The naming conventions themselves are as consistent as possible in how they treat royals as I explained in my previous post here. Charles 05:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked both Cladeal and the IP for 48 hours for obvious puppetry in the furtherance of an edit war, best evidence seen at the history of Sophie of Württemberg. I however suggest to Charles to take further conflicts up the dispute resolution chain, as serial blocking is not a good course to take, and edit wars are never good. --Golbez 05:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Flat out blatant personal attack
I'd like to draw attention to Articles for deletion/Fruit (slang) and the ridiculous personal attack left by User:72.68.121.10 towards User:Benjiboi. The comment can be seen in the AfD history here: history. It was removed, so User:72.68.121.10 went and posted it again on User:Benjiboi's talk page. User:72.68.121.10 should be perm banned from WP for this outrageous attack. --  ALLSTAR    ECHO  02:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Jumped straight to an npa4 on the user's talk page (no warnings had been left there — one had been attempted on their user page, but there is about a 0% chance that they actually saw it — no orange bar) and reverted the message left on another editor's talk page. Post back here if it continues and no one catches it.  — bbatsell   ¿?   ✍  02:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * They did it again 6 minutes after your warning. I've blocked for 1 week. Anyone who wants to extend the block is welcome to do so. ··coe l acan 02:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

And he's back under another IP and has attacked User:Benjiboi again. See User_talk:Benjiboi comment by User:72.76.11.153 --  ALLSTAR    ECHO  05:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Is there nothing to be done about this? This asshole has been stalking and harassing Benjiboi (and to a lesser extent, me) for the better part of a month now. This is not the first time this has gone to ANI, yet the abuse continues, with very little attention from administrators. Is this to be yet another example of a solid editor being harassed off of Wikipedia? To me,. this is one more example of why anon IPs should not have editing privileges. Jeffpw 06:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, like it or not, that's not going to change. We're not going to block obviously dynamic IPs permanently for things like this; it's just pointless.  --Haemo 06:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, ok. So we lose one solid editor and gain one anon IP stalker/harasser who pushes a conservative religious right agenda. That's a real net gain for this project:-s Jeffpw 06:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Jeff, I don't think it's that Haemo doesn't care, but that there are real technical and other limitations to what we can do about dynamic IP harassment.--chaser - t 06:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Echoing chaser. Jeff, remember when Nkr*s had the long knives drawn for me, and admins had to just keep whacking each of his IPs until he got bored? There's really very few technical solutions available to us. I've semi-protected Benjiboi's talk page for a couple of weeks so the troll has fewer troughs to feed at. The full solution is just to maintain the vigilance of a neighborhood watch. ··coe l acan 06:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know whether it's bad enough for a Long term abuse file, but having documentation somewhere (like a userspace subpage) so that admins know to block the IP on sight might at least get you a faster response. The range of IPs is too large to block all of them.--chaser - t 06:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, to second the above comments, what Haemo is saying is NOT that this person should be allowed to continue to harass, its that playing whack-a-mole with the huge number of IP adresses they use is fruitless. Ideally, this person should not be allowed to continue.  Practically, since they use an ISP that dynamically assigns IP addresses to its users at each log-in, there is no practical way to block the person.  Each block is to an IP address they are unlikely to ever use again.  As mentioned above, this is a technical problem, not a uncaring-admin problem.  --Jayron32| talk | contribs  06:28, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Bingo. The only solution is a blanket block on anonymous IP editing, and since the higher-ups have made it abundantly clear that this is not going to happen, we can't really do much more.  WP:DFT is the only line of defense, coupled with vigilant blocking. --Haemo 08:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Benjiboi is documenting the incidents as they happen, and Mangojuice knows a bit aboutt he situation, too. If Benji hasn't done it before I get a chance, I'll provide a link to the page he documents on. Thanks for listening, and sorry if I came on frustrated. It's just that this is the second time we came to ANI about this and the first time got no real reaction at all. Jeffpw 11:20, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Why not semi protect his talk page and leave a note at the top directing genuine anons elsewhere? User:Veesicle 11:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh it already has been, never mind. User:Veesicle 11:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Would it be possible and/or useful to contact Verizon to complain about their customer's bad behavior? Powers T 13:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's absolutely possible, but whether or not its ever useful is a completely different question. I'm not aware of any ISPs responding in any helpful way, although it's possible that's happened. Natalie 15:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Pictogram voting keep.svg Unprotected - per Benjiboi's request on WP:RFPP - I'll keep a watch on things, though - A<font color= "#FF7C0A">l<font color= "#FFB550">is o n  ❤ 17:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

All of the drama surrounding User:Green Kirby (not all his fault)
See User_talk:216.166.78.9, the history of User talk:Green Kirby and a lot of the edits made by both, not only to each other, but to several other users. Some civility time outs may be needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Corvus cornix (talk • contribs) 03:22, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I completely agree. None of them seem capable of letting the smallest thing slide, or letting any of this go. These kids are in serious need of time outs. GlassCobra 05:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Myself and Chaser have been attempting to work with these guys. Green Kirby is on his final chance having been released from a previous indefblock. I've just archived Kirby's talk page and am watching things closely there - A<font color= "#FF7C0A">l<font color= "#FFB550">is o n  ❤ 10:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Huge vandalism problems at Noob
Tonight, I happened to look back across some edits at the Noob article. I ended up reverting 98 edits back to a version 6 days old. Apparently, there's a huge vandalism problem going on there and I'd suggest semi-protection for a finite interval until things cool down a bit. &mdash; Dave (Talk | contribs) 05:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * There's something almost poetical about novice users vandalizing Noob, but I've semiprotected for a week. Raymond Arritt 05:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * LMAO!!!!!!! That hadn't occurred to me but you're right. But, hey, thanks for the sprot, anyway. :-) &mdash; Dave (Talk | contribs) 05:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Also consider that the article is (now was) a copy of an existing article Newbie. I boldly redirected the article to the other copy, which notes (correctly) that the article "Noob" should redirect to "Newbie". --Jayron32| talk | contribs 06:01, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Rape threat by Spotsnever
Vandalism only account made this threat. PrimeHunter 11:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Indef-blocked already. Not much to think about though. Typical vandal threats. - Aksi_great (talk) 11:36, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Hormones page moves
A user named seems to be playing silly buggers with Hormone. Multiple page moves, and I can't quite figure out where things started or are supposed to be. Help? --Calton | Talk 13:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Fixed it: just the two moves, hormone to life hormones and then to hormone signalling. Note that you can investigate this kind of thing by using the move log. --bainer (talk) 13:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Footnote to Doctor (Doctor Who)
I'm adding as a footnote to this article the possibility that the Doctor and the Master may be brothers, and it keeps geting reverted as a theory. Thing is, it's essentially the same information as a footnote found in the Master (Doctor Who) which nobody seems to have a problem with, so if my footnote keeps getting deleted, shouldn't the same footnote also be deleted from the other article? HalfShadow 18:07, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This isn't an administrative matter. <b style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</b> 18:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Bingo. This is a content dispute; refer to the fact that other stuff exists as an un-compelling reason for inclusion, and instead pursue our dispute resolution venues. This not an issue which requires admin attention.  --Haemo 18:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I was about to issue a short block to, but thought I'd bring it here for pre-emptive review instead. I first noticed this user when he posted vague, unsupported accusations of anti-Semitism against another editor while simultaneously complaining about violations of WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. I warned him at the time, he argued with me, but ultimately there were no further problems and the issue dropped.

Today I noticed that User:TShilo12 added new "evidence" to the "Allegations of apartheid" ArbCom case, which closed several weeks ago. The "evidence" in question was not evidence at all, but merely a rehash of the unsupported, inflammatory accusations he's made in the past. All the worse, this was added to a difficult and controversial ArbCom case long after its closure, in what appears to be an attempt to inflame and perpetuate the dispute.

I view this sort of baseless accusation of anti-Semitism as a problem for 2 reasons: first, because it violates the core of WP:NPA by attacking the character of another editor rather than his arguments. Secondly, there are real, dyed-in-the-wool anti-Semites on Wikipedia, and abusing the term to smear someone in a personal dispute without any sort of evidence cheapens what is a very real problem. I see no mitigating factors to what appears to be a serious, unsupported attack, made in a long-since-closed ArbCom case, designed to inflame a dispute, and coming after a previous warning. My inclination is to issue a short block here, but as NPA blocks are always a bit controversial and I generally don't issue them (not to mention the underlying issue is inflammatory), I'm bringing it here for feedback before I do so. MastCell Talk 19:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I could be happy with the NPA block but a stern warning and reversion of the addition might work too. I certainly agree with your thoughts here. JodyBRoll, Tide, Roll 19:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm surprised and disappointed to see that TShilo12 has done this again. As far as I know, I'd never had any interaction with this editor before he made his unprovoked personal attack on me and other unnamed editors ("an opinionated and misinformed gaggle of know-it-all admins") back in August. I've not had any involvement with him since, other than asking him on his talk page to withdraw his attack (see User talk:TShilo12), to which he did not respond. I have no idea what prompted this fresh attack, since I don't habitually edit Jewish-related articles and my editing lately has been fairly light. Once again it seems to be completely unprovoked. What makes this especially disappointing is that I see he's actually an admin of about two years' standing, so he of all people should know that No personal attacks means what it says. Given all of this - the repeated attacks, the lack of any contrition, and the fact that as an admin he knows that this isn't acceptable conduct - I think a more significant penalty is merited. I'm not calling for a desysopping (though his conduct does make me wonder about his fitness to hold the sysop bit), but I do think this requires more than a 24 hour block. As an admin myself, I think we need to show that we can hold ourselves to a higher standard, particularly when it involves repeated, willful and unprovoked misconduct of this kind. -- ChrisO 20:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm going to go ahead with a 24-hour block for repeated and very serious personal attacks, aggravated by the choice of venue. If there is evidence that an editor is an anti-Semite then that's certainly a valid issue, but it's absolutely not acceptable to repeatedly make such a claim without any supporting evidence, based on what appears to be personal animus or something, and to aggressively complain about a lack of WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL at the same time. Unsubstantiated and repeated accusations of this sort are corrosive to any sort of dialog or community-building here. I recognize this is potentially controversial, so if there's a strong feeling (i.e. multiple editors/admins) that this block is inappropriate, then I'm willing to undo it (or if I'm offline, I don't object to it being undone provided there is real discussion about it here rather than a unilateral reversal). MastCell Talk 22:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think this block is totally inappropriate. MastCell was involved in the arbitration in question, and had a particular viewpoint, and should not be blocking people who take a different viewpoint.  I also don't think TShilo's comments necessarily violated the rules cited.  When an editor (and admin) such  as ChrisO consistently takes a particular viewpoint, in this case on articles involving Israel, and has been accused (including by me) of using his admin powers to promote that viewpoint, I think it is acceptable for someone to speculate on his motives.  (Compare this with ChrisO's past repeated references to a group of "pro-Israel editors", I can find some diffs if necessary.) The real issue here is that MastCell's use of his admin powers in this manner is an abuse of his authority.  I also agree with the statements of IronDuke and Briangotts, below.  6SJ7 04:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no lack of admins around that are not involved in these disputes; why not to just ask an uninvolved party to look at the situation? I just do not understand what is the rush to put oneself in a compromising situation with these type of blocks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello? What rush? I brought it here for comment before imposing the block, and I asked for review after imposing it. The thread sat here long enough to be archived, and the only response I received was generally in favor. If you disagree with the block, then fine, but you really need to check your facts before accusing me of being in a "rush" or a "compromising situation" here. MastCell Talk 18:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The point is, you really shouldn't have been involved at all. 6SJ7 00:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Somebody neutral please take a look at this
Ummm… my God? This block is wrong in so many ways. First of all, MastCell, you seemed to me to be very much a partisan in the very arb case from which you excised TShiloh’s comments. To have blocked someone who you disagree with therefore is inarguably an abuse of your admin role, not to mention that blocks for NPA are not generally given except in very severe cases (which this clearly is not), nor am I aware of a block policy regarding adding evidence to a closed case—and if that were a policy, I’m sure the clerks/arbs could handle it.

What Tshiloh was up to, near as I can tell without having talked to him, was blowing off some steam because nasty things were being said about him in an arb case that he was not informed of until after it closed; I think most of us would find that pretty frustrating.

And you leave this up for just a few hours on AN/I (when you can clearly see TShiloh has stopped editing and can’t respond), and get exactly two responses, one lukewarm support at best, the other from ChrisO, who I think we can all agree would not be a neutral voice as this concerns him directly, and you take this as what? Community endorsement? Consensus? I recognize that there are tough calls to be made in blocking form time to time; this is not one of them. I urge you, or some uninvolved admin, to reverse this ASAP. IronDuke 05:30, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not willing to unblock at this time. Is MastCell in conflict with TShilo?  Because simply "disagreeing" with someone does not prevent you from blocking them; that's not part of the blocking policy.  I don't think MastCell is claiming community consensus; he made it clear in his message that he is planning on blocking, does anyone object?  No one objected, so he did.  I don't understand what would compel someone to make accusations (and that's using a far milder word than I think could apply) of the sort TShilo has made while being entirely unwilling to present any sort of evidence or support.  Judging from the previous responses of TShilo to questioning, I'm unsure that a block will do anything to deter him from his actions, so it could be argued that the block is punitive rather than preventative.  I'm not entirely convinced of that, which is why I'm unwilling to unblock myself without knowing much, much more background.  If the actions do continue, then steps up the dispute resolution ladder must be taken; this behavior is absolutely not acceptable in any shape, fashion, or form.  — bbatsell   ¿?   ✍  05:49, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * bbatsell, thanks for the quick and thoughtful reply. When I say that MastCell is in conflict with TShiloh, I mean that he was a party to a case that was brought against people who are, or who are perceived to be, pro-Israel, and that the strong possibility exists that, as no remedies of any kind were enforced in that case, MastCell is using a tenuous excuse to block someone he's had a political dispute with. See here among many other instances of MastCell’s taking a decidedly political position on this issue. If I may offer a mild global criticism; I think admins are far too willing to overlook fairly obvious conflicts of interest when other admins use blocking to gain an advantage in content disputes. It troubles me greatly. IronDuke  06:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The conflict of interest here couldn't be more clear. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 17:19, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Just chiming in here, but I find: "Secondly, there are real, dyed-in-the-wool anti-Semites on Wikipedia, and abusing the term to smear someone in a personal dispute without any sort of evidence cheapens what is a very real problem." an incredibly important and valid point, just for future readers. <font face="Book Antiqua" color="black">DEVS EX MACINA  pray 04:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with IronDuke and Briangotts, and also see my comments before the section break. The block here was unjustified. 6SJ7 04:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You guys really need to take a deep breath and check your facts before you go off here. I don't even know where to start addressing such ill-informed vitriol, and I don't see the point in refuting every poorly conceived attempt to paint me as "politically motivated" here. I'll just refer the reader back to the diffs I originally cited as the justification for the block, and point out the following: I brought the proposed block here before imposing it and asked for review afterward; the truly neutral parties who have commented have no problem seeing the utter unacceptability of TShilo12's behavior; making excuses for him ("blowing off steam"?) instead of holding him, as an admin, to a slightly higher standard is incredibly lame; and I've never been in any sort of content dispute with TShilo12 and have no idea how I'm supposed to have contrived this block to win a content dispute. If you can't see this situation for what it is - a block for egregious, repeated, unapologetic, and unacceptable personal attacks - but instead see me pursuing some sort of poorly fleshed-out political agenda, then that's a bit problematic. Or perhaps it's just more "blowing off steam". MastCell Talk 19:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think those of us who know the situation can see the block exactly for what it is. You were breathlessly urging arbcom to employ “the stick” against those you disagreed with in the case to which TSHiloh was a party. When they failed to do take action, you contrived an excuse to wield it yourself. Shameful. IronDuke  23:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Once again, all of this falls into the usual death spiral of conflict among those of a supportive-of-Israel bent and those of a critical-of-Israel bent, of which I am admittedly/regrettably a part of as well. Any administrative action taken by a participant (or a perceived participant) of one camp against a member (or a perceived member) of the other camp is instantly met with suspicion, accusations, and voices of support for their respective members/adherents/whatever. This is a larger beast than Tshilo12 and WP:NPA that is rearing its head here, and something really needs to be done to address it. The latest ArbCom attempt went out with a whimper, so what else is there? Tarc 22:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I just want to say that this a rare case indeed: I fully agree with Tarc. This is only the 2nd time it occured. 3rd time I'll have to buy him icecream. Zeq 15:36, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Tarc, I basically agree with you; there is a great deal of suspicion and mistrust on this issue. What can admins do to help? How about not make blocks to further their own political agendas? What troubles me most about Mastcell’s serene indifference to how his actions would be perceived is that he was right that nothing would happen! He used admin powers to punish someone who disagrees with him politically, and all you hear on this board is the sound of crickets chirping. IronDuke  23:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You've succeeded in completely undermining your credibility, and I don't think your comments warrant any further response, particularly as the block has expired and has been supported by the uninvolved editors who have commented here. It may be worth noting, regarding the ArbCom case, that while I argued against any sanctions for TShilo12 there, I did present evidence that you and 6SJ7 had disrupted Wikipedia to make a point. Now here you two are, defending this sort of inexcusable crap as "blowing off steam" while attacking the admin responding to it. One might be inclined to wonder which of us, exactly, is gleefully pursuing a political grudge here. MastCell Talk 03:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * MastCell, you’re welcome to stop responding; I think that would actually be a positive thing for you to do right now. I will say, however, that the diff you provide makes my point better than I made myself. You were involved in a spat with TShiloh, who was a party to a case and grouped with editors whom you strongly disagreed with for political reasons. You saw an opportunity to pick him off, and you took it. Yes, you had ChrisO’s support (who was himself involved in a dispute with Tshiloh) and one other lukewarm support; did you need even that much to do what you had already made up your mind to do? You have now me, and Brian, and 67SJ and Jossi all telling you that you made a bad blunder, but you’ll admit to nothing. I understand the block has expired and nothing can now be done—I’m not asking for anything to be done, other than to make plain to you and to others that what you’ve done is wrong, and that it will be called wrong again if you try to bully others with admin powers in a content dispute. That is all. IronDuke  04:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You know, the sound you're hearing isn't crickets chirping. It's people ignoring your attempt to turn yet another corner of Wikipedia into a battlefield. MastCell Talk 04:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * MastCell, you were one of the people with the torches and pitchforks in the arbitration (in which, by the way, neither IronDuke nor I were found to have done anything wrong), and you accuse someone else of turning Wikipedia into a battlefield? Give me a break.  6SJ7 05:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I think I've said everything I have to say about this. MastCell Talk 06:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) Whether or not a block of one's political opponent is "proper", it is usually inflammatory and that's a good enough reason not to do it. A good block accompanied by thoughtful commentary from a neutral admin can make the block recipient become a better contributor. Blocks by opponents are less likely to have that effect. It would be really nice for admins from both sides to decide that henceforth they won't be blocking anyone from the other camp. BTW I've had the privilege of having both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian editors tell me that I'm clearly on the other side. Kla’quot (talk | contribs) 07:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Well it sure is lovely to see Ironduke and Zeq so agreeable, but I think they missed the point entirely. Statements such as Duke's "How about not make blocks to further their own political agendas?" are becoming the essence of the problem here. Admins are being called to recuse themselves, etc...on the basis of their perceived beliefs and ideologies, not because of specific actions or circumstances. Even the proverbial "uninvolved admins" get savaged when they go against one bloc or another, as we saw in one of the ArbCom-related DRVs. That is what has to stop; this neverending second-guessing of motive. Tarc 15:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Look. Sanity check. I'm not a member of any "camp" here. The fact that I disapproved of IronDuke's and 6SJ7's behavior in the ArbCom case does not make me "pro-Palestinian" or "anti-Israeli" or a "political opponent" of anyone. It makes me an admin who's fed up with the fact that users are allowed to turn those articles into battlegrounds and pursue exactly these kind of vendettas with zero consequences. The (apparently successful) effort to cast anyone who disapproves of the tactics of specific editors as de facto political opponents is exactly the problem here. Leave the rhetoric behind and look at the facts. I have never edited any articles touching on Israeli-Arab relations, nor ever expressed a political stance of any sort that I'm aware of. I had no interaction with TShilo12 other than to warn him, months ago, for an unacceptable personal attack. He repeated the unacceptable personal attack, and I blocked him after seeking feedback. The neutral parties who commented were generally supportive. Two editors with a grudge against me from an old ArbCom case showed up in tandem to level a bunch of unsupported accusations, as if the problem here was not TShilo12's unsubstantiated, corrosive, repeated personal attacks (remember those? anyone?) but the fact that I blocked him for 24 hours for them. 24 hours. No admin saw fit to unblock him, despite a plea from IronDuke to do so and an explicitly stated willingness on my part to accept an unblock. TShilo12 didn't request an unblock himself. You're seeing a group of editors addicted to drama using this as an excuse to fight about something. The block expired days ago. It's time to move on. MastCell Talk 17:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If you were so interested in reducing tension in these "battlegrounds", why then was your evidence overwhelmingly on the side of the anti-Israeli position? That doesn't make you a referee, that makes you a combatant. And again: you posted here for feedback, waited just a few hours, got one uninvolved editor to comment with lukewarm support, and blocked someone with whom you very much appeared to differ politically, and had tangled with in the past. And FWIW, if TShiloh had decided to block you, for good reason or bad, I would be having this same conversation with him. I'm sorry Kla'quot struck out his point, as it was a good one--you talk about drama addiction; did you really not think anyone was going to object to your using admin powers in this manner? Anyway, it's all water under the bridge now. I just hope you'll let someone else do the blocking when it comes to editors you've had bitter content disagreements with in the past. If you could commit to doing that now, that'd be great, but I won't hold my breath. IronDuke  17:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * (Response to MastCell) Good points. I agree the "evidence" that you have different politics from TShilo12 is awfully thin. I've struck out my statement above because although I think it's true in a general sense, I'm not sure it applies well to this particular incident. Kla’quot (talk | contribs) 17:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * (Response to IronDuke) Exactly my point. I took the position, in the ArbCom case, that you and several other editors view Wikipedia as a battlefield and were entirely too willing to disrupt the encyclopedia to make a point. That position is in no way "anti-Israeli", it does not make me a "combatant", and the fact that you are unable to see it in any other terms reinforces my point. MastCell Talk 18:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If you're not going to respond to my points, you could just stop responding altogether (as you keep threatening to do). IronDuke  18:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I did respond to your points, but you twice moved your comments out of chronological order and made it look like Kla'quot was responding to you and I to him . I regret participating in a discussion this petty, and I think I'm done here. The Last Word is yours. MastCell Talk 18:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully, the last word is mine. I have, as I've implied elsewhere, received offWP email in which a number of the foremost contributors to the whole "Allegations" fracas have been characterized as antisemitic. I singled out ChrisO for particular criticism in my original remarks back in August because I regarded his closure recommendations as an open endorsement for the suspension of AGF in an apparent last gasp effort to keep anyone who might disagree with his stance from closing a particularly contentious AFD. That said, however, I am being accused of whimsically brandishing the bludgeon of Allegations of Antisemitism. The bludgeon here, however, is MastCell's finger on the "block" button, just as ChrisO's bludgeon back in August was attempting to drag as many people into the Allegations ArbCom case as possible. Contrary to what some people seem to believe, I was not an involved party in that dispute, although I found that ChrisO attempted to make me one by pointing out that I had !voted in the fifth reincarnation of AFD/AoIa. If anyone cares to take the time, they will see that I never called ChrisO an antisemite, I said that I could see why others might. OffWP emails aside, this is not something you all need to see my emails for. If you look at the evidence and reams of pointless "foul!"-crying in the relevant RfAr, you will find that ChrisO himself says people have accused him of antisemitism. Why I should be bearing the brunt of MastCell's misdirected rage is beyond me, but in the discussion that followed above, I am flabergast by the amount of effort being poured into defending the indefensible. If what I have done warranted a 24 hour block, what MastCell has done, coupled with the time and effort wasted in its aftermath, warrants someone removing the mouse and keyboard from his computer.

With respect to my crime of editing the evidence page of a closed RfAr, ok, that was dumb. I should have known better. The "evidence" is still pathetic. If I were actually involved in the RfAr, I probably would have even known it was closed. Seriously, the entire thing was a complete waste of time. The articles all need to go, as I stated in my !vote (oh no3s! my "involvement"!). Cerejota put it best. (And no, I would not have voted to delete Israeli apartheid.) What's sad is that HOTR created the mess, in an effort to push his anti-Israelism on WP, and succeeded spectacularly...but is now gone (at last check) from WP. His lieutenants, however, are keeping up his legacy nicely. !Kudos.

As for my not sitting around waiting for MastCell and ChrisO to respond to their solemnly worded remarks on my talk page, in August or now, I do not have as much time to edit WP as I did back in the day when I was unemployed. If something irritates you so badly that you feel a need to block me for it, try email next time, I'll probably get to it sooner. I must say, I was shocked to return to WP tonight and find not only that I'd been blocked (thanks for blocking me over Shabath, btw), but that the ridiculous block had generated this much discussion. Enough standing around the water cooler, people. Enough rambling from me, as well as from the rest of you. Go write an encyclopedia. Tomer<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk 04:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The takeaway message I'm getting here is "only an admin with a hole in his head willingly gets involved in Israel-Palestine articles." How about we cordon off that whole topic from the rest of the encyclopedia, let the partisans fight to the death, and indef block the survivors? Raymond Arritt 05:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, you know what Oscar Wilde said.... or is it the other way around? Tvoz | talk 05:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I've read this discussion with some bemusement, but I have to say that it's symptomatic of the problems Wikipedia is having in this area. Leave aside the subject matter for a moment. The issue at hand is a behavioral one on the part of certain editors who happen to be supporters of a particular political POV. (It could just as easily be pro-abortion, anti-Scientology, pro-Ron Paul or any one of a number of other controversial topics. It just happens to be Israel-Palestine in this case.) Some of these editors - who don't by any means represent everyone who shares their POV - are using obnoxious methods to delegitimise and intimidate anyone who disagrees with their views. In particular, critics of their views are tarred as racists, regardless of any actual evidence. They go further, by attacking in similar terms anyone who disagrees with their debating or editing tactics. They also behave as a faction, using Wikipedia policies as a club to attack their perceived opponents while minimising policy violations by their perceived friends. We can see exactly this dynamic playing out in the discussion above. For criticising what I regarded as policy violations, I'm attacked as a racist; for acting against a policy violator, MastCell is attacked as politically biased; for violating policy by posting anonymously sourced smears, TShilo12 is defended as merely "blowing off steam".

This is a nettle we're going to have to grasp at some point. We can't have a situation where admins are reluctant to intervene against blatant policy violations because rabid partisans are going to gang up and attack them if they do. [Some editors] aren't just addicted to drama (though they are, of course); they're purposefully trying to create a situation in which Wikipedia's policies and conduct standards aren't applied to them or their faction because admins are too intimidated to intervene. This, of course, isn't acceptable. It's not going to be an easy problem to fix, since the rot is pretty deep by now, but it would certainly help if some of the worst offenders were banned or at least given a topic ban. .

Finally, I have to say I'm disappointed that TShilo12 still doesn't seem to understand why what he did was wrong. His defence amounts to "I was only forwarding unsubstantiated anonymous smears." If he doesn't recognise the wrongness of that he's lacking in common decency, let alone common sense. During the allegations of apartheid arbitration, I was sent a number of fairly rabid e-mails smearing some of the other editors involved in the arbitration. I deleted them on the spot, and I have no intention - unlike TShilo12 - of posting something to the administrators' noticeboard (!) repeating anonymous smears against named editors. I'm totally unconvinced by his claim that he hasn't had time to respond to my request back in August for a retraction (since when he's made over 500 edits); he likewise hasn't responded to my second request a week ago, despite taking the time to post here and reply to two other editors in the meantime. So I'll ask him a third time: TShilo12, will you retract the anonymously sourced, unsubstantiated libel that you posted about me? -- ChrisO 16:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There's a tendency for trolls and partisans to attack any administrator who attempts to set limits on bad behavior. We need to not fall for the lie that enforcement actions cause an administrator to become "involved".  If that were the case, there would be no way to enforce policy.  An involved administrator is one who has a bona fide editing dispute with a party.  I don't think this was the case here, or at least I don't see the diffs that would make such a case. - Jehochman  Talk 17:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I also don't see how MastCell qualifies as partisan or involved in this fracas. I further share ChrisO's concerns about the disturbing tone and atmosphere in the Middle Eastern related editing spheres. <font color="#B93B8F">T <font color="#800000">i <font color="#B93B8F">a <font color="#800000">m <font color="#B93B8F">u <font color="#800000">t  20:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

ChrisO, you can't have it both ways. Either people have characterized the anti-deletion of AoIa "cabal" as antisemitic or they haven't. I have not done so myself, neither regarding you nor anyone else; I have simply said that others have. You have said the same thing. If you don't remember, go look at the rest of the evidence you presented on the /evidence page. I have never said anything to the effect that I agree with the assertions, I have simply said that I can understand where the impression has come from. Empathy does not equal agreement. And as for your assertion that you AGF, I think your statement above, in which you call me a liar, pretty effectively puts the lie to that. Tomer<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk 03:51, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Fake accusations of antisemitism are a problem on Wikipedia, and are usually accompanied by silly attempts at deniability of the sort TShilo12 indulges in above (I have never said anything to the effect that I agree with the assertions, I have simply said that I can understand where the impression has come from – yeah yeah, whatever). I don't know that blocking is the answer, and I'm not much for blocking/banning editors involved in incivility infractions in and around I/P articles anyway, because those seem to go with the territory, but it must be said that MastCell went about it in the right way.--G-Dett 06:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * How you can pompously believe that what you have just said isn't a blatant personal attack against me defies reason. But reason has long since been abandoned in this discussion, so I guess that's par for the course.  Why should you be any different?  Disgustedly, Tomer<sup style="font-variant: small-caps; color: #129dbc!important;">talk  06:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

SurferDude7 Engaged in a Personal Attack
SurferDude7 posted a very uncivil comment on the Talk Page for Fighting for Justice. This comment contained a personal attack against the editor, who was called an "absolute pervert" and was told that he "belong(s) in jail." Although the offensive commentary has already been removed and I just posted a warning about personal attacks on SurferDude7's Talk Page, administrative action may also be in order. ~ Homologeo 02:22, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Needs be warned, but only made one single edit. A bad breach of WP:NPA, so one and only warning issued with . David Ruben Talk 03:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Misleading signature
The Parsnip! is using a totally different username in his/her sig. The sig points to "Nobody of consequence". Can we please force them to change the sig? - Nobody of consequence 04:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * People use pseudonyms in their signatures frequently here. If his signature was inappropriately linking to a user page that wasn't his, then it would be an issue.  I do have concerns, by the way, about your post here considering you just registered 3 minutes people you posted this.  This feels like a WP:POINT violation to me and probably a bit of WP:SOCK as well.  Metros 04:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If a person is posting on one account and signing as another, should the account not be blocked for being a socketpuppet?--Dacium 05:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Block away, I'm not going to use the account. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, that's not what's happening here. User:The Parsnip!'s signature is as follows: Nobody of consequence. It links to xyr user page, but the text reads Nobody of consequence. Because User:Nobody of consequence seems to have created that username solely because the reasonably established User:The Parsnip! was using that text as a signature, should User:Nobody of consequence be blocked for impersonation? <font color="#4169E1">W<font color="#191970">ODU P  05:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * User:Nobody of consequence registered the account for the sole purpose of wasting our time here, and has been indef-blocked accordingly. Cheers, ··coe l acan 06:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Wrong. Not created to "waste your time" (if you have enough time for WP:AN/I then you have too much time). Signatures should be clear. This one is not. Also, that's a pretty cool username. There's a good chance that someone woudl have eventually created it. What would someone do if they create and start using the username after this editor uses the misleading signature? Do you see where the problem lies? - Ta bu shi da yu 07:19, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks also for sharing your opinion of those who donate their time to ANI, that they merely have 'too much time on their hands.' --Golbez 08:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't say it was not worthwhile, I just said that they have too much time. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It would only apply if that was an actual user; since you created the account only to complain about the sig, I would have to say you aren't an actual user yet. --Golbez 05:56, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I created it. This clearly gets in the way of the signature. It's a bad move. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. not resolved. The sig needs to be changed. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps before demanding we might wait to see if The Parsnip!, having been told, apparently in good faith, that his signature is, at least to some, confusing, expresses a disinclination to change his signature. I'm not at all certain that WP:SIG would counsel that he change his signature, which, after all, is really, in the absence of the Nobody of consequence account, no more confusing than is any other signature that differs from the attending username, but I'm certain that it, and, you know, all of those conduct policies that mean to codify the collegial, collaborative spirit that underlies the project, would counsel that one make a civil request (preferably one that stems from legitimate confusion or prospective confusion) that a user change his signature before bringing the issue to AN/I; here, a request from the Noc account was made just two minutes before the issue was posted here (even as Ta bu, at least, subsequently requested that TP! change his signature, the request wasn't, IMHO, ideal), and I cannot imagine that there is anything further to be done here before TP! has occasion to reply.  Joe 07:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. Looks to be fully resolved. In plain English - you had a beef with the way his sig read so you went and registered under the name, then minutes later came to ANI to complain about it (WP:POINT). In that case, YOU are in violation and not The Parsnip. Had you (or someone) created that username and started to contribute, and after a short time then had a problem with it (also after properly contacting and informing The Parsnip about it) - that would have been a valid ANI entry. As stated above - you are wasting people's time here. Rarelibra 07:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh come off it. I'm hardly wasting any time here. You're basically telling me that you spent 3 minutes on this thread, and that this "wasted" your time? And no, I'm not in violation of anything. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm rather shocked you would waste our time with this Ta bu shi da yu. Especially since you should know the signature and sockpuppet policies, and know that your actions have violated both. &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT Jester    Son of the Defender  07:26, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I know the signature policies. That sig is misleading. As for sock puppets: come on off it. There are heaps of sock puppets, many of them do great work. I used it for one edit, didn't disrupt anything, unless you think me reporting this to WP:AN/I as "time wasting". Had I reported this to WP:AN/I with my normal username, we would have had the same conversation, and I can assure you that accusations of time wasting would not fly about. How is this any different? - Ta bu shi da yu 08:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Because you initially came off as a troll, instead of a long-time valued member of the community. --Golbez 08:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Doesn't change the substance of what was being requested. - Ta bu shi da yu 09:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll quote WP:SIG here:
 * While not an absolute requirement, it is common practice for a signature to resemble to some degree the username it represents.

So there is no pressing need for us to make him change his signature. He has a right to do it if he so pleases. It never interfered with another user name until you created the new user name. There is nothing an admin has to do here. Metros 11:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It interfered with me, as it wasn't immediately obvious when I was trying to respond to them who I was actually talking to. It is disruptive, and we've blocked for this before. So, no, it is something an admin must do. Again removing the resolved! It is NOT resolved!!!! - Ta bu shi da yu 12:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Given that Nobody of consequence is now indefinitely blocked so cannot be used or recreated then this particular problem is now moot.  <font color="#000000">WebHamste <font color="#0000ff">r  12:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * My God, I wake up this morning and this is what I find? There is absolutely NO RULE that says I can't change my signature to show as a pseudonym, in fact the preferences tab explicitly allows for it. If anyone should be blocked, it's who should be blocked for violating WP:POINT, for deliberately creating an account just to try to force the issue, and for being highly disruptive with this absurd shrillness. All kinds of people do what I do and I can't think of anyone ever having a problem with it. Nobody of consequence 14:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent) NOW I see why this person went on their WP:POINT spree with me. I MFDed Facebook, which then speedy closed out of process. That page is NOT an official policy or guideline, so there is absolutely no call whatsoever to speedy close it. Someone really needs to look into this and deal with it because this person is seriously overstepping his authority. Never mind, I see it's been listed at DRV. Nobody of consequence 14:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * With Ta bu shi da yu being an admin, I would have assumed he would have first brought up the concern with the signature on The Parsnip!'s talk page with either a personal note or by using, which exists for this exact reason. Then I would have thought Ta bu shi da yu would suggest to The Parsnip! to create an account as User:Nobody of consequence and redirect it to The Parsnip!.  Even as it is, I would still recommend an admin allow the account to be reset so The Parsnip! can usurp it and mark it as a  account.
 * On a different note, I would like to see Ta bu shi da yu bring this up at WP:U and initiate discussion to change the policy exactly as he has stated here. I have agreed with for some time now the same points he brings up here, only to be rebuffed by the policy.  I would actually support such a change in username policy, but this is not the platform nor manner in which to do so.  Making a point, I have unfortunately found, usually works (but can be harmful to the point maker's reputation in the long run).  Regards.--12 N oo n 17:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've modified my signature so the "C" is now uppercase and created a corresponding doppelganger account that redirects to my original account. Nearly Headless Nick, for example, has done the exact same thing, so hopefully this is kosher and eliminates the signature problem. Nobody of Consequence 18:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You didn't make a doppelganger account - you made a user page for a non-existant user. Which is different from what Sir Nicholas did. He registered the "Nearly Headless Nick" account so it actually exists. Yours doesn't, and technically the User:Nobody of Consequence and User talk:Nobody of Consequence pages could be speedied under WP:CSD. Awyong Jeffrey Mordecai Salleh 01:35, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The complaint here does look a troll, but I do wish that WP:SIG unambiguously required a sig which displays the username. It's a pain having to mouseover a sig to find out the username of the editor concerned, which is essential if trying to track contributions. I don't mind sigs of the form  Foo (myname) so long as the "foo" is displayed. If "The Parsnip!" wants to change username, that's fine, but a sig which displays something completely different is at best unhelpful. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The start of this thread looks like the absolute most ass-backwards way to bring up what otherwise could be a legitimate issue. If you want somebody to change their sig, I dunno, just ask them? Build consensus? No need for silly sockpuppetry or other attempts to make things a bigger problem than they are. I don't have a strong opinion on the policy matter itself, other than to be glad it's being discussed, now. – Luna Santin  (talk) 20:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

What is there for admins to do?
At this point, what is there that admins need/have to do with this situation? The Parsnip! has tweaked his signature and created a doppelganger account. Nothing needs to be done as far as I can tell. Any further issues with this should probably be directed to WP:SIG as that would be the place to debate the logistics of whether these signatures need to be eliminated or not. Other than the ridiculous point violations of Ta bu shi da yu, is there anything else here that admins need to discuss on ANI or can this be marked as resolved? Metros 20:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Not yet since all s/he has done is to create a couple of userpages for a non-existent user. Awyong Jeffrey Mordecai Salleh 01:35, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm a "he." If you want to speedy the redirects to enable me to create a doppelganger account, go ahead. But please tell me what it is you want me to do (how to create the dop account satisfactorily) so we can be done with this. Nobody of Consequence 02:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not possible anymore, Ta bu shi da yu has already registered an account with a similar name. Although I don't think anybody cares anymore. <small style="background:#fff;border:#000 1px solid;color:#000;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap">east<big style="color:#090">. 718 at 02:23, 11/16/2007
 * I just tried it and yep, it won't let me. Although the error message said I can ask an admin to create the account for me. If someone here wants to help me by doing that, then that would be lovely, however I've done all I can do. Nobody of Consequence 02:34, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Check your email. <small style="background:#fff;border:#ccc 1px solid;color:#000;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap">east<big style="color:#090">. 718 at 02:38, 11/16/2007

Media director of national presidential campaign editing article
At John H. Cox, inserted this edit into the article. In that edit, the user states that she is Linda Harrington, the media director for Cox's campaign for president. The edit was later reverted and I just gave her a warning for conflict of interest issues. Since this is a campaign for the presidency (albeit not one of the "big guns"), should anyone "up the ladder" in Wikipedia be made aware of this much like a sensitive IP being blocked or is it perfectly fine to leave the situation as is? Thanks, Metros 04:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we should assume good faith and say that this person is trying to edit helpfully, dispite the fact that the claim should have been linked to a verifiable source ;) We're going to get plenty of problems over presidential candidates in the coming year. this is a minor one not meriting more than standard action. Physchim62 (talk) 17:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree. There's nothing special about a presidential campaign.  Certain sensitive IP addresses should not be blocked without going "up the ladder", such as the US Congress IP range, but otherwise any disruptive user can be warned by any editor, or blocked by any administrator if there's a reason.  You should invite Linda to use the article talk page to recommend edits.  She's just unfamiliar with the way things work here.  Additionally, Business' FAQ provides useful guidance. - Jehochman  Talk 17:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Corticopia
Note - since this hasn't been addressed but had been archived, I'll copy the discussion here. If this is the wrong thing to do, my apologies. Vizjim 06:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

This user is abusive, adopts a confrontational stance at all times, and makes the experience of editing Wikipedia less enjoyable for others. This is a long-running low-level irritation at the Cyprus page, and I would ask interested editors to refer directly to both the talk page and to the edit summaries on the article history: similar issues can be seen at Geography of Mexico, Metropolis, North America, and so on. It is not a question of accuracy, but of incivility (and, on a side note, an insistence on incorrectly marking changes as "minor"). I and others have repeatedly requested that the user abide by the usual WP:CIVIL guidelines, but he refuses to do so. I note from his contributions history that he is engaged in similar low-level unpleasantness on several other geographical articles, involving many other editors: this reassures me that, while my own behaviour is certainly not perfect, I am not alone in finding Corticopia a disruptive and aggressive presence. An experienced administrator's intervention would be useful here. This complaint was originally posted to the Wikiquette alerts section, and has been redirected here with the comment from User:Jamessugrono as follows: "This should be at either WP:AIV or WP:AN/I, this user has been blocked far too many times for this to be simply a matter of incivility - there are plain, obvious, disruptive edits". Vizjim 10:33, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I totally agree, since he created that account he's being contributing mostly to Mexico-related topics, for reason that couldn't explain in one paragraph but if you check his record you'll see what I mean, I myself have had countless confrontations with him, usually reverting my changes with the excuse of NPOV, and it's not just me, users Jcmenal and AlexCovarrubias (who's been absent for a while) have had the exact same problem, Alex even suspected he was a sock of a previous user that was banned, he even has some evidence but for some reason nothing happened, I would really like the intervention of an administrator here, he uses profanity and uncivil manners and it should not be toletared in Wikipedia, there has been too many warnings for him. Supaman89 17:13, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll just add to the list the constant playing around and gaming of the system with respect to 3RR, again visible at Mexican and Cypriot pages. Vizjim 08:03, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I guess I'm being dumb but... I don't see these disruptive edits. Any chance I could have some specific diffs for the violations you mention (i.e., incivility and edit warring)? If you can substantiate these allegations, I will certainly take them seriously, given Corticopia's history of being blocked for these reasons. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 08:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

He constantly deletes his talkpage to hide his messages but here are some of them:

And those are just a couple of examples, I could easily keep looking for two more hours, but I think it gives you an idea of what this user is like and how he's been behaving all this time. Supaman89 16:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Edit War - Geography of Mexico
 * Bad Attitude - Cyprus
 * 5 reversions in less than 24 hours - Hawaii
 * Erased the whole comment and only left the part where the other guy looked bad - Hawaii
 * Someone told him that he could archive his talkpage instead of deleting them - He erased it anyways
 * He's blocked again for one month for engaging in edit wars
 * Again he erased another comment listing all his negative and disruptive attitude
 * Once again blocked by 72 hrs by breaking the 3RR rule
 * Look at the summary, what's up with "crap will be expunged"?
 * 3RR breakage
 * Another edit war in Mesoamerica
 * Couple of add-ons - Rude edit summaries, e.g., and abusive arguments - e.g. . Vizjim 19:05, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * He is perfectly allowed to blank his talk page; in fact, it acknowledges he is reading the messages. I see the Hawaii link you listed was from August and he was blocked for two weeks for that.  It would be helpful if you focus on any post-block activity (or just add the dates so that it's clear how long this covers); listing specific events through his entire history (especially activities for which he has already been blocked) will probably be counterproductive.  I've also informed him but it looks like he doesn't tend to respond. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. Also note that I was eventually vindicated on Hawaii, when a later proposed move to 'Hawai'i' -- perpetuating ostentatious use of the okina -- was overwhelmingly rejected per my position.  I make no apologies. Corticopia (talk) 22:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Corticopia is not the wiki's most civil user but we also shouldn't allow him to be constantly poked and proded like this, either. Wily D 14:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The rudenesses in the dit summaries and on the current Cyprus talk page aren't old news, though. As I say in the complaint, I originally brought this up at Wikiquette and only brought it to AN/I on a suggestion received there.  Basically, Corticopia's refusal to be polite, achieve consensus, etc, in the discussion on that page suggests that he's going back to his own tricks: as such, I was hoping that an admin might be willing to have a quiet word and let him know that his behaviour is (again) being watched.  This seems preferable to waiting until he does something for which a long outright ban will be required.  I certainly didn't mean for this single action to come across as "constant" poking. Vizjim 22:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Given the admittedly petty, childish, and dilettantish behaviour of the two reporting editors above and their consorts, I will not -- nor am I required to -- respond to these comments beyond this note. Wikipedia is not your mother, so (to extend that metaphor) please stop acting like bastards and get on with editing. Given the above, throughout and hereafter, one policy above all guides my actions and edits: ignoring all rules, or at least certain pernicious editors. End communication. Corticopia (talk) 21:51, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

who cares

User:Cheeseatme
This is an odd page, which I found while using the "search" function: 350 Kb of ... line noise. That's the best description for it. Only contribution this user ever made, deleted or otherwise. I only looked at it because the username reminded me of a banned user. If the page's harmless, I'm happy to ignore it; if someone tried to upload a worm or other maleware, then this page needs to be deleted. (I didn't see any ill effects after viewing this, but my system is non-standard.) -- llywrch 19:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed the nonsense, but I doubt an administrator would have deleted this page - just incase the user ever did return to contribute constructively. <font style="font-variant: small-caps; font-size: 105%">Qst 20:28, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The first three bytes of the zeroed user page (BM6) are part of the header for an image format used in portable devices. It's possible the user was trying to copy the image here, but it is obviously not capable of rendition in a browser not running on Symbian (for example). No harm done. --<font color="7F007F">Rodhullandemu  (please reply here - contribs) 23:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked User:Privatemusings
Drama ended with amicable resolutions on both sides. No need to further engage. — Kurykh  05:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC) <div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color: #f5f3ef; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following discussion is an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The page at User:Privatemusings is (now) pretty self-explanatory. You can match the contributions of those accounts to the claims made by "Privatemusings" yourself. Wikipedia is not an MMORPG - David Gerard 20:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This is not going to be pretty. Some claims made by others about PM appear to be false (editing articles with both PM account and main account). This is a cursory review but I am still looking. No comment on the block though. <small style="background:#ccc;border:#000 1px solid;padding:0 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap;"><font color="#000">spryde | <font color="#000">talk  20:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Good block. That set of accounts created too much noise and not enough signal.  - Jehochman  Talk 20:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with the block. Considering that this "gossip page" was apparently one of his first edits, it's hard to believe that this user came to the project with good intentions. The extensive use of socks, even after promising to stop using them, is ample evidence of abuse. This is an encyclopedia project, not a puppet theater. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 20:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I fully support this block. This user has created many accounts, with intent to disrupt this site from the beginning. Crum375 20:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * At last. Guy (Help!) 21:22, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Fully support this block given this users continued disruption and general oar-sticking-in-where-it's-not-wanted-fuckery they've engaged in. Nick 21:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, whatever. Prepare for a long argument though--Phoenix-wiki (talk · contribs) 21:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Anyone unblocking after seeing that user page has, um, bulletproof assumption of good faith - David Gerard 21:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Although the cat's out of the bag, is anybody opposed to a courtesy deletion because of his concerns about his real-world identity? I propose replacing Privatemusings' user and talk page with a message only admins could view. <small style="background:#fff;border:#ccc 1px solid;color:#000;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap">east<big style="color:#090">. 718 at 21:45, 11/15/2007


 * I said yeah, I endorse the block, just warning that there might be an argument, like there was last time--Phoenix-wiki (talk · contribs) —Preceding comment was added at 21:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Support for the same reason I declined to unblock him previously. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 22:08, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * WP:TROLL (which, as has been pointed out before, is an essay and not a policy or guideline) has nothing about blocking being an appropriate response, so my first impression is that the block is improperly applied. If it is a case of abusive sockpuppetry - not that anyone has mentioned it - I would ask if a checkuser has been requested and someone to point out the abusive edits; diffs would be appreciated.
 * To counter some specific points from the chorus of approval; Jehochman, signal to noise is an article, not even an essay - are you able to articulate any reasons why this block is appropriate using valid criteria? Will Beback admits disregard of WP:AGF while unsure what a supposed alternative account's first edit might be - and the criteria is "abusive sockpuppetry", not "sockpuppetry is abusive". Crum375 believes he can read minds, or at least guage intent, while also being unable to recognise that creating alternative accounts (if that is what happened) is not prohibited. Nick is at least honest in how they feel about other peoples contributions they they might not agree with - not that there is anything in policy that supports him but, hey, why not ignore WP:CIVIL as well?
 * All in all this appears to be an extremely badly executed block, not backed by any resemblance of policy or guideline, and resoundingly (if just as incoherently) applauded by The Usual Suspects without any provision of supporting evidence. LessHeard vanU 22:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree. Considering he has restricted himself to a single account (evidence the the contrary???) then a block for sockpuppetry is complete invalid. Viridae Talk 22:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * He said, as Privatemusings, on 05:52, November 2, 2007 that he'd stick to one account, then 22:04, November 4, 2007 he posted using the Purples account. I don't think his commitments to stick to one account have credibility. He even created a new account on November 1, and another on October 8, that he'd hadn't used yet. Far from creating a single sock to deal with a contentious uissue, he seems to use socks regularly. This account appears created solely to create a negative biography on a barely-notable living person, again back on October 8.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 00:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree. To say Wikipedia suppresses dissent may sound dramatic, but appropriately summarizes this block. To say "he's only here for the drama" doesn't set him apart from the people trying to ban him. Those busy writing the encyclopedia probably aren't even aware of this dispute.66.195.186.69 23:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I too think the block invalid. I have another question: why was it considered necessary to plaster, among others, the name of the original account, the one that has a name the most like a real life name, across the page? I don't expect a reply from David Gerard, since he has for a very long time not deemed it proper to reply to anything that I say to him. But perhaps somebody not considered a pariah would like to repeat the question, thereby hopefully rendering it visible. A reply from the user who removed all the sock templates except that possibly revelatory one would be good too. And may I have a good reason why PM's e-mail has been disabled? If not, I will restore it.
 * While awaiting further discussion here, I have honored PM's reasonable request to have the Privatemusings userpages deleted, to protect the privacy that he is so concerned about. Bishonen | talk 23:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC).


 * Because those are the names of the accounts he was sockpuppeting to cause drama with. If you want to make trouble on Wikipedia, using your real name with it is your own problem. It's like IP data not being protected by the privacy policy if you were using an IP as a separate "persona" - David Gerard 01:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that's reasonable, especially if the user does not return under a new sock to circumvent a block. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 23:48, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Now that he's returned to using the "Petesmiles" account I don't see any further rationale for deleting the Privatemusing page. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 02:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * No reply about the e-mail block, as expected. I have therefore removed it. Bishonen | talk 00:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC).


 * I support this block too. Bishonen, you were the person who persuaded me to assume good faith of Purples when I felt he was causing problems before, and I did because I respect your judgment. But for him to create yet another sockpuppet to cause more problems over the same issue really isn't acceptable. Think about the inconsistency of his position. He insists that his first user name be protected in case it IDs him (do we even know that it might?) He further insists that his wiki-accounts that don't ID him not be named, because he doesn't want to be criticized and therefore reserves the right to create multiple accounts to split up his contribs. But at the same time, he uses those accounts to add external links to articles (or to argue for their addition) that out and in some cases defame Wikipedians. That's not really a position anyone can defend. SlimVirgin  (talk) (contribs) 01:27, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a gross oversimplification. When you introduce real-world complexity to the problem, you'l discover there's considerable internal consistency in his actions, however irritating. Relata refero 05:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I oppose this block as politically motivated. *Dan T.* 00:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Dan, I remember when you pledged not to make arguments based on what you think people's motivations are. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:56, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * *Dan T.*, I believe that you are jumping to conclusions. David Gerard is a strong believer in freedom of speech. I trust his opinion on this block. WAS 4.250 01:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Was it the commies, fascists, republicans, democrats, greens, scientologists, labor or Larouchites?--MONGO 00:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * MONGO, that was not helpful. WAS 4.250 01:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This block is similar to Jimbo's block of Miltopia. None of PM's accounts have acted in an overtly bannable way, but he is a drama hog, a low-level persistent pest, a time-sink for many admins, and seems to exist mainly to stir up trouble of various kinds.  If we are going to welcome this sort of individual with open arms as long as he doesn't do anything grossly obnoxious or foul, then expect the environment here to continue to degrade.  I can see a strong argument for showing this sort of person the door, politely but firmly. Thatcher131 00:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Well said. Crum375 00:31, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If by "well", you mean, "full of needless ad hominem attacks," then yeah. -GTBacchus(talk) 03:56, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The idea that people can be banned for the subjective concept of "low level trolling" (meaning anything that others find annoying) is a dangerous meme. *Dan T.* 01:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Disagree (with the block) on principle that WP should be open to reasonably dissident and iconoclastic voices. (Agree with Less Heard.)—AL FOCUS! 00:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is open to such voices to the extent they improve the encyclopedia. However, Wikipedia is not a free-speech zone. It's certainly not a place where it's acceptable to create sockpuppets to increase the volume of your voice. Chaz Beckett 01:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The connection between this account, and Privatemusings has been made public, and I consider that to be a betrayal of trust. I am unclear whether it is permissible or appropriate for me to comment on some of the gross distortion, and dishonest posturing above. I am furious and confused, and upset. Ideally I would like Privatemusings to be unblocked, and this account to be deleted. Can I please contribute further here? Thank you, Petesmiles 01:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It can't be deleted, but given the circumstances, yes, you can trade the blocking of Private Musings for the blocking of Petesmioles. Wily D 01:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * That sounds like a good way forward to me. I'd like the userpage and talk page deleted if that's ok (at your discretion). Many thanks indeed, Petesmiles 01:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You don't have a right to act in bad faith - David Gerard 01:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I understand that. Petesmiles 01:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If you come to Wikipedia to make drama with sockpuppets, choosing to use your real name is your problem. May I note for others that it's dedicated sockpuppeters like this who most often request deletion (and frequently oversighting) of pages about them, to cover their tracks. I would strongly recommend against deletion of information linking the many accounts, particularly deleting it from the obvious place, i.e. the userpages of the sockpuppet acccounts - David Gerard 02:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I understand your perspective. Would you consider this solution? - How about you indef block petesmiles, and all other accounts mentioned, and unblock privatemusings, leaving notice on privatemusings' user page which I promise not to remove pending further discussion, or any other process you suggest. I hope that will minimise both my stress, and this stupid disruption. It also gives us a way forward. thanks, Petesmiles 02:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've done so as I see little functional difference in the two situations. <small style="background:#fff;border:#000 1px solid;color:#000;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap">east<big style="color:#090">. 718 at 02:09, 11/16/2007
 * Beat me to it by seconds. Viridae Talk 02:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Private Musings is unblocked Petesmiles is blocked Note that this causes no net change in the number of accounts active. Cheers, Wily D 02:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to all. Now move along. Privatemusings 02:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This was a very good solution to it all. PM seems to have inadvertently run afoul of the sockpuppet rules-- or at least approached a gray area.  Now he's promised to use one and only one account, and if he adhere to that, at the very least we won't have to deal with the abuse of sock allegations in the future. --Alecmconroy 03:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Will Privatemusings renew his promise to stick to one account, and if so will he adhere to it this time? ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 04:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There is essentially a community restriction in effect here. Privatemusing has undertaken not to create or use alternate accounts, and that seems to be supported by the consensus. I recommend recording this restriction, as well as any others like it, in a central place. - Jehochman  Talk 04:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you just did that! (seriously - it's on the record here, but I'm more than happy for a sign to go up somewhere if you think that's necessary too...) Privatemusings 05:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I am glad you agree with the resolution. These archives are voluminous and hard to search.  Probably this should be discussed elsewhere, but it would be a good idea to record community restrictions in one place with links to the relevant discussion, an index. - Jehochman  Talk 05:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

New move proposal on Talk:Burma
Last month I proposed changing the name of the article Myanmar to Burma. After a very extensive and exhausting debate where even Jimbo participated, the proposal was closed as "move". A few days ago, I discovered that a new poll/discussion intended to move the article back to Myanmar had started. The proposal wasn't even listed at WP:RM so I speedy closed it for violation of procedure and for the temporal proximity with the last proposal which consumed so much of many editors' time. However, User:SqueakBox decided to undo my closure today and reopened the discussion, which I reverted, and informed SqueakBox that he should bring my closure to WP:ANI if he disagreed with my reasoning for it. SqueakBox wrote this reply and started yet a new move proposal at the bottom of Talk:Burma. The proposal was listed at WP:RM but I still don't think it's productive to restart such a painstaking discussion all over again. I would like to hear the opinion of fellow users (as I don't wish to be accused of acting on conflict of interest) on whether or not would it be valid to speedy close this new move proposal so to allow more time before a new discussion may take place. Thank you. Hús ö  nd  20:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Since the previous move discussion had been scrutinized so carefully by so many editors, a new discussion is both unneccessary and dilatory. In my opinion, Squeakbox was wrong to reopen it. Cumulus Clouds 22:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Though another view of that would be that so much discussion and scrutiny could be a sign that there wasn't really a solid consensus for the original move to begin with? AgneCheese/Wine 22:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The closed discussion was a genuinely disputed event and Husond said that the problem was that it hadn't been posted at Requested Moves, which I then proceeded to do. This is a genuine controversy that needs sorting, the redirect was completely messed about here which kind of closed the debate in a completely non-wikipedia way, and I am opening it again. As the proposer Husond clearly had and has no right to close. Thanks, SqueakBox 01:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Abuse by 71.62.25.150
I encountered certain users of this IP address gleefully vandalizing articles. I spoke to them in RL about it. They responded with a sort of disjointed tirade about truthiness and how people have the right to edit the truth on Wikipedia. I have left a final warning on their user page, on top of a small pile of other warnings. Considering that none of the edits made by this IP address have ever been in any way valuable, and in light of a general disregard for rules and regulations and a vow to continue vandalism expressed by the involved parties, I recommend the IP address 71.62.25.150 be blocked from editing. Fifth Rider 20:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Well they have only actually made 4 edits in total. If they come back I'm willing to block, but at the moment I don't see the need. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 20:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

This account is a suspected SPA that I would like to be investigated.

So far, he has spammed many of the AFDs with Keep votes with an irrelevant argument with some personal attacks. Along with that, he reverted SPA tags without mentioning anything in the edit summary and added a minor blank template to his userpage to apparently diverge suspicion. He has only started the account in two days and already have started participating in a large majority of AFDs. This should be checked out. 164.106.16.21 22:07, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * In the context of deletion discussion, SPA usually refers to someone who is only editing in relation to one article, or a very narrow range or articles. In my opinion, the term doesn't apply to this user, who is participating in AfD discussions, appropriately or not, about more than one article or subject. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, this editor is obviously disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, not to mention that numerous of his keep votes violate our civility policies, and therefore I have blocked them indefinitely. Let's look at contribs; re-creates deleted NN page, page gets deleted, spams AfD with random invalid Keep votes.  Not a difficult decision.  E LIMINATOR  JR  00:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey, you should unblock him because "all administrators have a moronic, unthinking hivemind". That's as perfectly reasonable as "Keep, notable"! x_x JuJube 03:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism of Sock puppetry
Previously warned and blocked. Could someone review the block situation following this edit? Gordonofcartoon 22:36, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism of Images uploaded from website WWII in Color
After reviewing the images from the website WWII in Color, it is clear on the website's FAQ the following about the images: This does not mean that all images on this site are in the public domain. The majority of the images, unfortunately, have an unknown copyright status and therefore it is recommended that you do not distribute or copy them for any commercial purposes unless they are specifically stated to be in the public domain (some images have a “public domain” notice in their captions). I have spent some time reverting the copyright tags of these images which have ben uploaded to Wikipedia and the Wiki Commons, however, there are a few particular users who are trying to revert these blatant violations of copyright license: Denniss (Talk Contributions) Akradecki (Talk Contributions) The images which I have reverted the copyright tags can be found with the appropriate notices at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bzuk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Signaleer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Felix_c

Please help me control these revisions by users who are trying to revert these copyright tags. -TabooTikiGod 23:04, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Bzuk's Response
What gall! You are reverting an admin's work BTW. This is the notice I posted to the Aircraft Project Group due to a widespread attack on images. Help needed on Image challenges== HELP, The following images have all been challenged:
 * 1) Image copyright problem with Image:P-51D Tika IV 361st fg.jpg
 * 2) Unspecified source for Image:P-63 Kingcobras.jpg
 * 3) Image copyright problem with Image:P-59 Airacomet.jpg
 * 4) Unspecified source for Image:B 26.jpg
 * 5) Unspecified source for Image:B-25 refuelling.jpg
 * 6) Unspecified source for Image:P-39N.jpg
 * 7) Unspecified source for Image:B-25s in New Guinea.jpg
 * 8) Unspecified source for Image:B 24 in raf service 23 03 05.jpg
 * 9) Image copyright problem with Image:Capturedfw190 red.jpg
 * 10) Image copyright problem with Image:Fw 190A starting up.jpg
 * 11) Image copyright problem with Image:Fw 190As in flight.jpg
 * 12) Image copyright problem with Image:Me 262 Abandoned.jpg
 * 13) Image copyright problem with Image:Junkers 88.jpg
 * 14) Image copyright problem with Image:Junkers 88.1.jpg
 * 15) Image copyright problem with Image:Junkers 88k2.jpg
 * 16) Unspecified source for Image:Stirling of 7 sqn.jpg
 * 17) Image copyright problem with Image:Spitfire V 316.jpg
 * 18) Image copyright problem with Image:Mosquito Fighter-bomber.jpg
 * 19) Image copyright problem with Image:DH98 Mosquito bomber.jpg
 * 20) Unspecified source for Image:Hawker Typhoon.jpg
 * 21) Unspecified source for Image:Beaufighter252sqn.jpg
 * 22) Unspecified source for Image:Short Shetland.jpg
 * 23) Image copyright problem with Image:Fairey Barracuda.1.jpg
 * 24) Unspecified source for Image:Westland Whirlwind prototype.jpg

All of these images will be removed by TabooTikiGod who has made the sweeping challenges. I believe they can all fall under PD-BritishGov or PD-USGov-Military-Air Force or other appropriate PD tags. Can you help! Bzuk 23:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)." I believe the challenges were well-meaning but looked like a singular editor's interpretation and then he has the gall to call the editors who reacted to a "crusade" as vandals! FWIW Bzuk 23:29, 15 November 2007 (UTC).


 * In reference to your claim, the webmaster of the website WWII in Color has a FAQ website which states the following:


 * "Most of the images stored on ww2incolor.com were collected from government sources or submitted by their respective owners. This does not mean that all images on this site are in the public domain. The majority of the images, unfortunately, have an unknown copyright status and therefore it is recommended that you do not distribute or copy them for any commercial purposes unless they are specifically stated to be in the public domain (some images have a “public domain” notice in their captions)."


 * It further states:


 * "However, some of the images were photographed by private individuals, media or other government entities (such as the United Kingdom) that do not fall under public domain law."


 * Therefore, the images which you have uploaded directly from the website, unless specified, are not public domain. These images all have unverified sources which you have uploaded to Wikipedia and the Wiki Commons. -TabooTikiGod 23:36, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

-TabooTikiGod 23:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Without reference to any talk pages, sweeping challenges were made to images that previously were thought to have no contentious issues. I believe a resolution can still be achieved without resorting to the loss of many unique images. FWIW, I did not approve of the blanket assessment that any questioning of these images was vandalism. That is not fair to the editors involved who have made significant contributions to the aviation project. Bzuk 00:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC).


 * Actually I did create a notice on your talk page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bzuk#Copyright_Status_in_Question I am an editor who is trying to enforce the rules in reference to copyright images on Wikipedia. Please see WP:IUP, furthremore, I am not stating that you, Bzuk are vandalising Wikipedia by uploading the images, I am stating that the users Akradecki and Denniss have reverted the images which I believe to be vandalism. -TabooTikiGod 00:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Vandalism is a strong term. While they might have not been following policy, this case is not blatant and it is probably just a misunderstanding of some unknown copyright.  A lighter tone might have been more appropriate. <span style="font-family: Segoe UI, Trebuchet MS, Arial;"><font color="#2E82F4">O2  (息 • 吹) 02:28, 16 November 2007 (GMT)

User:Arrnous
See this version of is User page, which I have blanked. has come into Wikipedia with a POV and all of his edits are BLP violations and personal attacks. I have issued a warning about the User page, and he blanked the warning. He needs watching. Corvus cornix 23:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * For some reason, this got deleted from here. I'm readding it, and adding a notice that all warnings have been removed from his Talk page and he continues his POV editing.  Corvus cornix 23:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * User was reported at AIV, and I have blocked them for 24 hours. TigerShark 23:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It got deleted in User:Bzuk's edit Darkson (Yabba Dabba Doo!) 23:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, didn't read carefully. Won't happen again. FWIW Bzuk 00:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC).
 * 'Sa'right. :)  Corvus cornix 02:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

AGF
It might be helpful for an uninvolved user to step in and notify the user that posted this (see the last paragraph) to please try to assume good faith. I have enough trouble when engaging in lengthy discussions with conspiracy theorists without the added hurdle to finding common ground when I'm being labeled the enemy. Thanks. · jersyko   talk  01:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've left a friendly note. --Haemo 01:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Speciate
Special:Contributions/Speciate. . |dorf|trottel| |mess|age| 03:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Messages reverted by me, blocked by .  Daniel  03:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've unblocked after reading Speciate's explanation. This is a lesson about WP:AGF. As they say, never assume malice when stupidity will suffice. Stupidity, it turns out, will suffice for a whole lot.
 * My unblock message and comment on Speciate's talk page may be less civil than is ideal. I find myself not really caring that much, but if somebody wants to block me for it, I'll find it really funny. Phil Sandifer 04:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm logged out and have left the project, but would like to add this note of support for Phil. That sucks man. - 211.30.71.131 04:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No, Phil, you were kinder than I would have been. I think that this user ought to be blocked for a very long time, especially given the statement "be warned" or whatever and the clear meaning behind it. Charles 04:33, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If there was ever a case to use IAR to trump CIVIL, this is it. I'm calling Phil next time I need to give somebody what-for.  I assume I'm just being paranoid by raising the question whether this might have been the person responsible for the report in the first place. -- <font color="White">But |<font color="White">seriously |<font color="White">folks   04:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The eagerness to simply post it around as the user did leads me to believe so, or at least that the user simply does not care about the reputations of others. Charles 04:50, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Phil's actions and reactions were totally justified. It is suspicious, too, BSF... hard to assume good faith when someone does something as despicable as this.  <font face="Book Antiqua" color="black">DEVS EX MACINA  pray 05:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC)