Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive362

JJJ999
This user is not assuming good faith and is making personal attacks in this AfD.

Past issues: He was discussed on ANI in September here when he accused someone of lying. He was blocked for edit warring and incivility on October 1st for a different incident here. He was warned again on October 20th.

Current: On January 21st, he nominated this article for deletion, speculating with no basis that the creator, Faithlessthewonderboy, created the article because he had a personal relationship with the subject. This would seem to violate WP:AGF.

On January 28th, Faithless nominated the AfD mentioned above for deletion. JJJ999 violated AGF by accusing faithless of nominating the article as retaliation.. He attacks him further here and here. There's more violations on that page, including accusing others (including myself) as voting because we are friends of Faithless (not true in my case, I don't know him). You can see for yourself on the page. V-train (talk) 11:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Reply- what a tissue of feeble complaints. You don't assume good faith either when it's clearly not deserved!JJJ999 (talk) 12:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * the article that JJJ999 nominated for AfD was in fact deleted by clear consensus & IMHO good reason by an uninvolved admin.  DGG (talk) 13:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The article Faithless nominated is still under discussion; opinion by independent eds. seems divided. The discussion there seems to show intemperate language by both Faithless and JJJ, but primarily by Faithless. I've had a number of disagreements with JJJ, but this does not seem like a situation where he is seriously at fault. DGG (talk) 13:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * My take is that JJJ999 is trying to stir up trouble with some very borderline and snarky comments. However I can't see what admin action is required here. I'd ask JJJ999 that he calm down a bit, and start assuming more faith, but it's hardly blockable. Pedro : Chat  13:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * As I've said several times, the article that I created deserved to be deleted, and I did not object to its deletion. DGG, please explain which posts of mine you find objectionable. JJJ999, on the other hand, repeatedly attacks me (even my username), refers to anyone you disagrees with him as "friends of Faithless," and in general is incredibly uncivil. The article currently at AfD is one that I've kept my eye on for some time; I gave it time to be improved, which it never appreciably has been. This is the reason I nominated it, not as retaliation for an article I didn't care about. JJJ999 hasn't committed any one, single blockable offense, but I just can't understand why he conducts himself the way he does. faithless   (speak)  16:09, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Pedro that JJJ999 is stirring the pot. FWIW, another incident, so far unmentioned in JJJ999 (aka Jembot99) that editors may wish to review to get some flavour of the history is Articles for deletion/Christopher Erskine (2nd nomination) (that's not the AfD I was thinking of I'll find the link later) Pete.Hurd (talk) 16:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What are we arguing about? It seems like we're trying to decide if he's a dick or not. Either way, it doens't matter. Dickery is not a reason to block someone. /thread Lumberjake (talk) 19:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, WP:AGF is just a guideline, but WP:NPA is a policy, I think he's demonstrated a continuing refusal to abide by either (while frequently invoking whenever his actions are criticised). Perhaps this really belongs at WP:WQA, or a user conduct RfC, but I think continued flagrant violations of WP:AGF and WP:NPA -if they occurred- would be blockable. Pete.Hurd (talk) 20:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Inappropriate discussion closure
Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents has been inappropriately closed three times. To prevent edit warring/wheel warring, I will not undo the closure again. However, I will strongly state my objection to that closure. I am being directed to the RFAR page, which is inappropriate because a pending RFAR does not preclude reporting incidents and behavior through normal channels and additionally so because the case is leaning towards rejection. As a further objection, both one admin s (JzG and SirFozzie ) who closed the discussion are is not an uninvolved admin s but an advocate s for the subject of discussion. I would like feedback on this issue. Vassyana (talk) 18:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Feedback: the section you added is inappropriate forum shopping and you should take your complaints to RFAR; the closure of the section is entirely appropriate. Hope this helps. ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 18:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd like to know what administrator action you or the user you are proxying for would like here. Ronnotel (talk) 18:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, this discussion was absolutely inappropriately closed. Please provide an explanation. Bstone (talk) 18:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The explanation is perfectly clear: there is an active debate at WP:RFAR and we do not need yet more forum shopping against ScienceApologist, especially by people who are not prepared to do their own dirty work. This is hardly controversial. Guy (Help!) 18:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Guy, dash it, I'm with you there, but could you please express yourself more temperately? See Ronnotel's remark below, which makes the same point, except without sounding pettish. Relata refero (talk) 18:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Vassyana, you can post a copy at Talk:Homeopathy/Article_probation/Incidents. Create the page, copy the text there and add a link from Talk:Homeopathy/Article_probation. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I would prefer not to post it there since that would be no less "forum shopping" than posting it here, unless those stating it is forum-shopping disagree. Vassyana (talk) 18:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Um, I would like to know how I am someone who "advocates for the subject of discussion". Please make sure you have your targets correct before you bring out the smears. SirFozzie (talk) 18:31, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If I am incorrect in remembering that you have defended SA in the past, please accept my honest apologies. Vassyana (talk) 18:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Apology accepted, as obviously you have confused me for another administrator. No harm, no foul, I guess. SirFozzie (talk) 18:38, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec)Thanks for accepting the apology. I've stricken the comment about you out. Vassyana (talk) 18:42, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * What admin action is required?
 * You know, I'm thinking of making a template for that. Every new incident must fill in a little thingie specifying what they expect to get out of coming here because this is not the complaints department. Relata refero (talk) 18:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The discussion SHOULD be closed. This is NOT the appropriate place for it.  As has been noted several times above, these comments SHOULD be added to the RFAR discussion instead, which si where they belong.  No one is censoring you, but it is a bad idea to start several threads in different places relating to the same subject.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  18:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Vassyana, I would like to re-iterate, what admin action are you requesting that you don't feel comfortable doing yourself? I'm not dismissing your concern, but this board is for requesting admin involvement and I don't see anything concrete in your statement. Ronnotel (talk) 18:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The intent was for an uninvolved admin who is familiar with the situation to review the situation. I know it is a complex and ongoing dispute with all kinds of accusations and tomfoolery flying around from all sides. As such, I intended to defer to those more familiar with the editors and the ins and outs of the situation. Hope that helps explain. Vassyana (talk) 18:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Without taking a position on the merits either way, it seems to me that situation is already being reviewed by ArbCom and they should be allowed to continue with their deliberations on this matter. Ronnotel (talk) 18:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And the tomfoolery being described is being looked at by ArbCom. It would be inappropriate for admins to take action where ArbCom is already dealing with it. The above comments are VERY APPROPRIATE for the open arbcom case on Homeopathy (see below), however there is no one to block or ban or pages to be protected on this yet. Make those comments THERE! --Jayron32. talk . contribs 18:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I am honestly confused by this. Not reporting incidents because there is a pending RFAR is a new thing to me. Certainly, when an RFAR appears like it will be accepted or has been accepted, such things should be entered into /evidence for the arbs to consider. But quite honestly, I have never heard of not reporting things when there is a failing arb request. Vassyana (talk) 18:39, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Which RFAR is it as there are several possibilities? Anthon01 (talk) 18:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The one where you have already commented. And now you should leave this subject as you are a meatpuppet of a banned user. Guy (Help!) 18:42, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Guy! Please! Relata refero (talk) 18:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Please what? Block Anthon01 for tendentious editing, trolling, POV-pushing, disruption and posting on behalf of a banned user?  Great idea, I'll get right on it. Guy (Help!) 18:53, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec) The one called "Homeopathy? Lawrence  §  t / e  18:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Civility?
Zenwhat continues to make public reference to me with perjorative terminology; ignoring WP:NPA, WP:ATWV, WP:DONTBITE, and the noticeboard rules. In his ANI, I am referred to variously as a "conspiracy theorist pusher,"  a "vandal," "troll," "editor with bad faith," and "possible sockpuppet." In his FTN, I am implied to be a " crank."

Overall, the attempt feels to be focused on marginalizing me, and driving away any further verifiable (perhaps, controversial) edits.

Thank you for any advisement on this matter. BigK HeX (talk) 18:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Admin protection of Talk:Homeopathy/Article probation
Editors who are involved in the disruption that caused the community probation, are editing the Talk:Homeopathy/Article probation page disruptively. I propose am indef protection of the probation page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Jossi, you propose that only adminstrators be allowed to notify other users about the probation on the Homeopathy articles? You suggest that I did not notify Vassyana here? Have you discussed your concerns on the notification page and sought consensus of other involved editors before reverting the page twice? PouponOnToast (talk) 18:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think Vassyana should be warned, not least, because he hasn't recently edited any of the articles. Addhoc (talk) 19:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not a warning, it's a notification. Vassyana has proxy edited for a user who is clearly interested in the article - as such, Vassyana should be aware that any disruption on the article (directly or by proxy) would result in sanction as severe as bans. Finally, Vassyana was notified, regardless of the correctness of doing so, and as such can be subject to sanction via the probation. Such a notation should remain in more than just Vassyana's talk page history. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * (ec)As I have proxied for a complaint in a heated topic, and have no intention of editing homeopathy information, I do not object to being listed as a notified party. No need to advocate on my behalf in that regard, though I appreciate the well-intended effort to indicate I am not an involved party to the dispute. Vassyana (talk) 19:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

This would cut out the ability of non-admins to issue and log notifications, which would be inappropriate. Anyone is entitled to do that, not just admins. If a user is violating an actual policy, that user can be addressed. In full disclosure, a number of users have expressed that they feel Jossi is too involved in the homeopathy issues himself, and should recuse, which he refused, as is his right. As the community ultimately decides anything and everything, an editor removed Jossi, who then re-added himself. Another user also added Vassyana as detailed above. Lawrence §  t / e  19:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think protecting the page is a good solution. Hopefully, with Vassyana's comment above, common sense can prevail for now. The purpose of the list is to ensure that people are aware of the probation. Vassyana is aware of the probation. Problem solved. It's not necessary to edit-war over whether or not his name appears on the page. He doesn't have any intent to edit the article, so it's a moot point in any case. Let's move on. MastCell Talk 19:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * As a note, to conteract the possible belief I was creating a "Wall of shame" - I had added myself to the list long before I added Vassyana. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps adding all editors that you have notified would help eliminate any appearance of a COI. Anthon01 (talk) 19:42, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I just removed my comment to that effect as unecessary (probably should have struck it instead), but you're right about that. MastCell Talk 19:20, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

If this becomes a problem again, we can split the list of notified accounts off onto another subpage, transclude it into the main Probation subpage, and hard protect the main Probation page without extending protection to transcluded pages. That accomplishes both goals. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Protecting the page would leave us with no place to discuss the matter. It is the talk page and I thought it was therefore the appropriate place to discuss it. I see my own comment has been removed. (I haven't read the responses yet, but there have apparently been some.) What can we do? -- Fyslee / talk 02:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I should note that there are several objections to Jossi listing himself as uninvolved on that page. Relata refero (talk) 20:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I second those objections to Jossi as being "uninvolved." -- Fyslee / talk 02:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Problem with a talk page
There is problems going on here: Talk:List_of_Virtual_Console_games_%28North_America%29. Several users are using it as a place to whine about the subject, and other off topic discussions. When I try to remove it (which I'm pretty sure is the right thing to do), it gets re-added for no good reason. One of the editors involved with this: User:Lamename3000, has been very uncivil about it, and refuses to listen when I post on his talk page. He just reverts it off, and has called me a pest and 'tard (short for retard) in the edit summaries. This needs some admin involvement, as everything else hasn't worked. I originally brought this up at Village Pump, but I feel this is the better place to discuss it now. RobJ1981 (talk) 19:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup, you're the master of civility. --LN3000 (talk) 19:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Which has nothing to do with the matter in hand. RobJ1981 is correct, Wikipedia is not a forum and while a certain amount of discussion about the article subject is permitted it should always be with the ultimate aim of improving the encyclopedia. It really helps if folk can stay on topic, in all instances. LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I am having the same problem understanding the difficulty as another user above. Somehow, we managed to create (not "me" in that "we" but Wikipedians in general) a full article about "Lourdes" which deals with the facts of the place and the beliefs that have made it famous. Why aren't Science Apologist and friends over making difficulties at Lourdes, there being not one shred of scientific evidence for its claims of cures? I'm not defending Lourdes or homeopathy, or attacking them, for that matter, but why can't the article at least be as polite in setting out that there are large numbers of people who believe it, like Lourdes, works? Both may be right; both may be wrong. Where is the need for such contention? ៛ Bielle (talk) 21:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

As we're all now very sick of Homeopathy, idea to modify probation
Anthon01 posted an interesting idea on my talk page just now. I propose we make an ultra-simple modification to the terms of probation, sound off here if supported. Once someone is aware of it (notification, editing the Probation page, etc.), they are subject to a hard 1rr on all articles that are under probation, and this 1rr will include the Talk:Homeopathy/Article probation page itself. This'll take care of all the edit warriors on any or all sides. Sound off with support or oppose. I support. Lawrence §  t / e  19:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose - if there is evidence of edit warring, any administrator can place any editor on 1RR within affected articles. Doing this automatically for all editors is too gameable. Who needs this now? Jehochman  Talk 19:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I was going to say the community, as we're averaging like 3-5 of these topics per day. :) Lawrence  §  t / e  19:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (EC x3)At risk of becoming involved, I support with the caveat that someone has to be involved in editwarring to start in some way. That way we don't WP:BITE the newbies who post and then wonder why six people are jumping on their talk page and yelling that they're a bad person, etcetera. We actually had something similar come from the Troubles ArbCom case (warning before being put on probation by a neutral administrator, once on probation 1 revert limit/week on Troubles related articles, and civility parole). SirFozzie (talk) 19:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose - too much rules and regulations make Wikipedia into a martial law state! Igor Berger (talk) 19:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And I'm sure too little rules and regulations make Wikipedia into a state of anarchy. We're trying to strike a balance between allowing folks to edit freely and not letting folks disrupt the encyclopedia with constant edit wars. SirFozzie (talk) 19:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The admins can intervene when necessary, that is their job. Igor Berger (talk) 19:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I have personally voluntarily placed myself on 0RR on these articles. What might calm things down is an aggressive attitude towards spamming of talk pages with nonsense.--Filll (talk) 19:38, 1 February 2008 (UTC) Can someone explain what the deal is with this Homeopathy article, it seems like such a mundane topic, why does it have such heated disputes about it on such a regular basis, its not like its a particularly contentious subject--Jac16888 (talk) 20:03, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Since the probation, so have I. Anthon01 (talk) 20:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (tons of e/cs) I don't think this is a good idea. What will happen is that there will be races to gather more friendly editors than the other side on a single page and gamble 1RR, which would lead to slow-moving edit wars. Let's give the current system a chance - give everybody lots of rope and the better editors will do well with their freedom while the more unrepenting edit warriors will fashion themselves nooses. east. 718 at 19:41, February 1, 2008
 * To put it in general terms, it's become a battleground between people with different interpretations of Wikipedia policies, especially with regards to the inclusion of material that some believe lends credence to pseudoscientific ideas. And as with any battle, there have been associated cases of incivility, edit warring, etc.  At least that's my take on the dispute. Dlabtot (talk) 20:15, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Which articles are covered by the probation? Those under  Category:Chemical elements, Category:Plants, Category:Organic chemistry?  -- SEWilco (talk) 20:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Essentially all articles in which the subject of homeopathy is mentioned. It is the mere mention, especially when deemed an unwarranted and irrelevant (for the article) form of homeopathic promotion, that ends up starting fires and edit wars. Many of the mentions are related to attempts to promote the use of a homeopathic editor's book as a resource in those articles. It's like reading the book's TOC, and then articles are created or visited in an attempt to create a means by which the book or its author can get mentioned. The probation enables admins to work with a shorter leash with which they can reign in parties who are improperly promoting homeopathy (advocacy is forbidden at Wikipedia), and anyone - regardless of POV - who acts improperly. No one is totally innocent. -- Fyslee / talk 03:49, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Users who appear to have engaged in post-probation reverting without consensus

 * TheDoctorIsIn PouponOnToast (talk) 19:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * ScienceApologist PouponOnToast (talk) 19:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Orangemarlin PouponOnToast (talk) 19:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Anthon01 PouponOnToast (talk) 19:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Levine2112 PouponOnToast (talk) 19:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Cobaltbluetony PouponOnToast (talk) 19:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I strike-out myself from this list. Anthon01 (talk) 20:42, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Please take me off that list immediately. I fear I am a marked man. Woe is me. PoupounOnToast, you are making it difficult for me to AGF in your actions towards me and others. Anthon01 (talk) 19:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

^ If you are gonna make such a list, shouldn't you include diffs? Such a list seems pointless unless others can examine the substance of your accusations. Dlabtot (talk) 19:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I am just about ready to ban PouponOnToast from these pages because they seem to be engaged in combat. This is not appropriate at all. Jehochman  Talk 19:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, PouponOnToast hasn't edited in the mainspace substantially since the probation came down. A ban from all related pages seems to be jumping the gun - perhaps a final warning that future attempts to turn a talk page or noticeboard into a battleground will result in blocks without warning? east. 718 at 20:00, February 1, 2008
 * PouponOnToast intends to participate in User Talk:Raymond arritt/Expert withdrawal and so will be making no mainspace edits for a month. Relata refero (talk) 20:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * To disputed scientific articles. We are the worlds formost and most valuable resource for Pokemon and obscure indirock, and I have no problem editing those articles. PouponOnToast (talk) 20:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I have explained this. Let's wait and see. Jehochman  Talk 20:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't belong on that list. But he saw fit to place me there. Anthon01 (talk) 19:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not see any reason to put Pouponontoast on the list or to block him. Can someone show me a diff of him being disruptive?--Filll (talk) 20:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Popupontoast made the list and signed each line, apparently. Mike R (talk) 20:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Is discussing ways to improve Wikipedia at User Talk:Raymond arritt/Expert withdrawal discouraged? I would hope not. I would encourage all to visit and contribute ideas to help improve things.--Filll (talk) 20:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: I'm not sick of Homeopathy. I don't even know who that is. I don't appreciate when people put words in my mouth and say such pretentious things as "the Wikipedia community this" and "the Wikipedia community that". A group of people say something and then associate themselves with the entire project to make themselves seem bigger. Lumberjake (talk) 20:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I am having the same problem understanding the difficulty as another user above. Somehow, we managed to create (not "me" in that "we" but Wikipedians in general) a full article about "Lourdes" which deals with the facts of the place and the beliefs that have made it famous. Why aren't Science Apologist and friends over making difficulties at Lourdes, there being not one shred of scientific evidence for its claims of cures? I'm not defending Lourdes or homeopathy, or attacking them, for that matter, but why can't the article at least be as polite in setting out that there are large numbers of people who believe it, like Lourdes, works? Both may be right; both may be wrong. Where is the need for such contention? ៛ Bielle (talk) 21:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Note that the sanctuary water article states as fact, "It does not have power in itself to cure anyone and has no special scientific or medical properties." So the question is then, why aren't there dozens of true believers in Lourdes Water edit warring to insert magical beliefs into the article? Homeopathy supporters claim their magic water has power to cure anyone and has special scientific and medical properties. That's why there isn't an edit war at Lourdes, and is at Homeopathy. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)


 * I don't think the characterization is quite right. No plausible method of action has been found for homeopathy. So Anti-Homeopathy editors would like the article to reflect that in more words and ways then I just stated. Pro-Homeopathy editors want less, and it's been suggested, (not confirmed) a few want no criticism in the article at all. In the middle are editors who want a balanced article but it is difficult to achieve that with pro and anti editors constantly at odds. Anthon01 (talk) 22:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * But method of action has been proposed, and their are specific claims of it having scientific and properties, and of it being a treatment for specific ailments. That's why the thorough debunking of these things need to be in the article.  Anything further discussion should be on the article page. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)


 * This whole Homeopathy thing is WP:LAME Igor Berger (talk) 22:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * obiovusly, but when you get a lot ofpeople who feel strongly that the words on wipkipedia shape reality, then thats what you get. some Pro-homeopathy types think that any criticism fo homeopathic science on their aritcle is tantamount to HOlocaust denial, and some pro-Allopathy types think that anything non-critical of homeopathy is pretty much a rejection of all science now and forever. Thats what i have decided to take a brief sabbatical form editting the article itself to give me some chance to get a better perspective on the whole sitaution, because currently the situation that i am in right now is contraversial to the whole issue of why Wikipedia exists as a community. Smith Jones (talk) 00:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What needs to be decided is what constitutes an NPOV article here. Will it contain 1% material debunking homeopathy? 10% ? 20%? 30%? 50%? Also, Lourdes is not promoting itself aggressively across the internet and in many communities. Lourdes also does not make scientific claims about itself, or claim that allopaths are evil, or that Big Medicine is part of a conspiracy, or that Big Pharma is some malevolent force, etc. Lourdes does not claim that people should not be vaccinated or should not take antimalarial precautions. I cannot buy Lourdes water in my drugstore or my grocerystore, but I can buy homeopathic products there. I do not see Lourdes water being advertised on TV or the radio, but I see homeopathic material advertised in the media frequently. Lourdes does not claim all kinds of strange theories for how it works including misapplied QED or water memories or dozens of other strange bits of scientific nonsense for which there is no evidence. Lourdes is not pushing for government funding and grants for research studies. Lourdes does not frantically lobby people and claim fraud when studies show that their water does not have an effect. The priests at Lourdes managing the spring do not insist on being called doctors. And there are many other instances in which the two are not quite parallel. --Filll (talk) 04:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocking Problem
I am having trouble getting to any pages related to blocking, who seems to be another sock (see Requests for checkuser/Case/Qwerty of Man and compare his contributions). Every time I try, I insta-timeout; is anyone else having this problem? -Jéské ( Blah v^_^v ) 20:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Brion committed a bad revision that was undone before you posted. <small style="background:#fff;border:#8b0000 1px solid;color:#000;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap">east<big style="color:#090">. 718 at 20:09, February 1, 2008

User just doesn't stop uploading the same image
See User_talk:Sidhugill. This user just keeps uploading the same fair use violations:. I even asked him to stop. I don't know what to do. He keeps on uploading fair use violations, even months later after being asked. The Evil Spartan (talk) 01:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * User:Shell Kinney blocked the uploader until a resolution is reached. I deleted the images. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 01:15, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, indef'd until we get some kind of acknowledgment out of the user and an agreement to stop the copyright infringement. Probably going to take some explaining if the user finally communicates since they're grabbing text and images from all over the net and tossing them up here. Shell babelfish 01:19, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * {ec}OK, I hope that's useful. I know indef blocks take care of the problem, but I hope he's able to figure out how to ask for unblock and return.
 * As for the text, I wasn't aware he did it any other than that one time, but it isn't really surprising. The Evil Spartan (talk) 01:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Dethzone and BRIEFCASE FULL OF GUTS
Resolved. Hello. I'd like to voice concerns that is a sock puppet of blocked user. The account BRIEFCASE FULL OF GUTS was created about three days after Dethzone's block. Both make similar edits to Sandbox and enjoy music. They both appear to be fans of Metalocalypse, their signatures reference the show, and BRIEFCASE FULL OF GUTS once edited a comment made by Dethzone. This is highly suspicous. JetLover (talk) (Report a mistake) 01:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There's also this. JetLover (talk) (Report a mistake) 01:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * They also both seem to have problems with a stuck caps lock key: . If this wasn't so obvious, I would say take it to WP:SSP. But it is. Does this user deserve another chance? The Evil Spartan (talk) 01:47, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Iam Not A Sockpuppeter But iDo Like Metalocalypse But that Dos not Mean That Iam Deathzone But Its A Small World iThought iWas the Only Fan With There T-Shirts And Album The deathalbum But there Is A Resembles But iShould Check His Page iHave Know Idea What His Page Looke Like Seriously Plus caplock is my thing some times But Not Always. Nathan Corpsegrinder Wartooth (talk) 01:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If it looks like a duck. It'd be very unlikely that Briefcase isn't a sockpuppet. Useight (talk) 01:57, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Rather than have people waste their time further, can I just say


 * - A l is o n  ❤ 02:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * All blocked and tagged. <small style="background:#fff;border:#008080 1px solid;color:#000;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap">east<big style="color:#090">. 718 at 02:42, February 2, 2008

Disconcerting
Resolved. I'm not sure what to make of this, but at 1:37 this account was created and edited until 1:41. At 1:42 this account was created and started making identical edits. The edits appear to be constructive, so I don't know if another editor is creating accounts and reverting vandalism rapid-fire, or what exactly is going on here, but I thought I'd point it out. Useight (talk) 01:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Their edits don't look constructive at all -- they both look like they're removing a bunch of article tags (notability templates, etc) that were added by User:Gavin.collins. The edit summaries claim to be "Reverting vandalism by single-purpose account disrupting Wikipedia to make a point" but that doesn't seem plausible, given that User:Gavin.collins has been around almost a year, I doubt it's a single purpose account.  And the edits being reverted don't look all that disruptive to me; see this for example.  Doesn't look at all like they're reverting vandalism.  To me this looks like an abusive sockpuppeteer. -- Why Not A Duck 02:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This sounds like it's related to Requests for checkuser/Case/Grawp - same sockpuppeteer who was reverting edits by User:Gavin.collins some weeks back - A l is o n  ❤ 02:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Coincidentally, Jéské just reported at the above checkuser request and it's now ✅ as being Grawp.  is now also confirmed, as well as  and .  also - can someone move these over to the Grawp case at RFCU? I have to run here :) -  A l is o n  ❤ 02:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You're right, the editing wasn't as good as I initially thought. I was at work and couldn't do more than take passing glances at Wikipedia as my contribs pattern for the last 4 hours shows. I see that the IP has been blocked. Useight (talk) 02:27, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Rolling back the edits, indef semi-protecting the articles, tagging as sockpuppets. -Jéské ( Blah v^_^v ) 02:57, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

122.148.180.50‎
To keep this short and sweet, this ip adress has been vandalizing wikipedia. Check contribs-- <font color="Blue" face="Verdana">Durza <font color="green" face="Verdana">Twink TALK (talk) 02:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Click Here to check contribs. Thanks-- <font color="Blue" face="Verdana">Durza <font color="green" face="Verdana">Twink TALK (talk) 02:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Has been reported at WP:AIV. If you report it there, it (usually) gets dealt with faster.  x42bn6 Talk Mess  02:49, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you-- <font color="Blue" face="Verdana">Durza <font color="green" face="Verdana">Twink TALK (talk) 02:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Have also semi-protected talk page for same period as the editor vandalised the block notice and continuing not to make any sense. --<font color="7F007F">Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 03:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible return of V-Dash?
My spidey sense is tingling at - his contributions look a hell of a lot like indefinitely-blocked user 's, and, as V-Dash did on  and, he's stonewalling discussion at  and edit-warring (albeit slow-mo) over the genre of the game. I have an RFCU out on him, but I wanted other administrators' opinions first. -Jéské ( Blah v^_^v ) 03:31, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Grawp
Banned vandal,, is back. See, , , , etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. --Yamla (talk) 04:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * See Requests for checkuser/Case/Grawp, too. He's been back for a few weeks now; he's just mainly been stalking . -Jéské ( Blah  v^_^v ) 04:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Indefinitely semi-protected all pages edited by these socks. Post any further ones at the checkuser case above;  has it top-priority. -Jéské ( Blah  v^_^v ) 04:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * We're on some sort of Grawp paranoia. AIV just got a request to block Dickmann1960 (with NO contributions) as a Grawp sockpuppet.  Folks have got to calm down about this.  I'm not saying they're not, but there is NOTHING to say they are.  - Philippe &#124; Talk 04:27, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * We'll see about that; I'm submitting the names above to the checkuser. -Jéské ( Blah v^_^v ) 04:31, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * ✅ - it's Grawp yet again; same narrow IP range, also . yet again -  A l is o n  ❤
 * Damn, you're quick. I just submitted the above. -Jéské ( Blah  v^_^v ) 04:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Regarding User:Dickmann1960 (created 4:12) - the previous sock User:My dick is bigger than yours. was blocked at 4:11, and an autoblock (with ACB) for this user was set on 4:13. From my technical understanding it is excluded that this is a Grawp sock. --Oxymoron83 04:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * - fun's over. I rangeblocked his main range for a month. There are a few others, mind, but I'll prolly hit them, too, as he returns - A l is o n  ❤ 04:49, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have asked WP:D&D to supply me with a list of articles that both have tags (or have had them recently) and aren't protected. Once I get this list, I will post it on a user subpage as a reference. However, I will state that one Grawp sock attacked the completely unrelated Perfect Hair Forever article; keep an eye out on any unprotected articles bearing cleanup tags. -Jéské ( Blah  v^_^v ) 05:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Serious Vandal. This guy is creative
OK, several users, particularly User:Thingg, have been reverting vandalism by a single IP vandal that is using a dynamic IP assigner to circumvent the blocks he has been given. In one of his edits, he said what he was doing. As far as I can tell, all his IPs are 75.100.x.x. While it may be drastic, I think someone is eventually going to have to block all IPs from 75.100.0.0 to 75.100.255.255. Seriously, this guy is really starting to get on my nerves. He is laughing in our faces, and us non-admins can't do anything but keep heading him off hundreds of times. J.d ela noy <sup style="color:red;">gabs <sub style="color:blue;">adds 05:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Even if I knew how to rangeblock, I don't think we can block such a huge range anyhow. -Jéské ( Blah v^_^v ) 05:27, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure we can. We don't like to, but as Ryulong just demonstrated, we can when required.  I was going to rangeblock 75.100/16 for 3 hrs to discourage them, but he did for 2 weeks.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Will (film)
Numerous editors, in general anons but not always, keep adding unsourced cast members to Will (film). What's there now has citation needed tags on it, and I'm going to remove them in a few days if valid sources aren't provided. I don't know if this is some kind of orchestrated hoax being perpetrated, or some sort of PR campaign, but I keep removing these unsourced names, and will continue to do so, but I could use more eyes watching this. Thanks. <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix talk  06:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Spam-blacklist/UnrealRoyal
Unrealroyal.com was blacklisted as spam (which it is not) by User:Hu12 who seems to be partisan on the subject as is clear from User_talk:Hu12. The subject was looked at rather perfunctorily at MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist/archives/January_2008 in which User:Lazydown participated. He is a sockpuppet of User:Kingofmann who is David Howe (claimant to King of Mann). Would an independent admin please have a look. CarbonLifeForm (talk) 18:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * As to whether it is spamming, I have no idea. But I see no reason to think it would qualify as a reliable source (it appears to be a personal site, even if a well-researched and well-written one), so the point seems to be moot. Am I missing something? - Jmabel | Talk 20:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The first point is that it is not a spam site. Which is the purpose of that list. WP:RS is not the issue. The second point is that it is not for User:Hu12 to determine the issue as he has been involved throughout. CarbonLifeForm (talk) 21:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * My past experience with User:Hu12 is that I talked to him, and he fixed the problem. Bearian (talk) 17:55, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well he would say that, wouldn't he? It should have been closed by an uninvolved admin. More than one person who has looked at this thinks it was improperly resolved by an involved person - namely he who put it on the spam list in the first place. CarbonLifeForm (talk) 21:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It wasn't blacklisted as "spam". Also, an univolved admin (also meta admin) closed the removal request, not I. Repeating the same request 3 days after that close, does not become re-opened by virtue of repetition--Hu12 (talk) 01:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Not only was Hu12 the person who added the link to be blocked, he was the original creator of the article which the content from the site was criticizing. Hu12 is apparently camping-on the blacklist, any removal requiring personal approval, and ignoring consensus. The blacklist additionally, in my humble opinion, is being used to stifle criticism and suppress dissent. The use of the admin bit, by an involved admin, in content issues, is at-odds with the project goals. Any question of reliable sourcing should be taken to that board to discuss, not pre-emptorily blocked by a blacklist addition. This disruption has already led to one ArbCom case. The issue of community involvement in the blacklist should be taken up somewhere, I'm just not sure exactly where. Wjhonson (talk) 22:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The site in question is based on this blacklisting of a attack site. The "Criticism", as claimed about the subject of the BLP's was not the reason for the blacklisting. This site contained an entire page devoted to outing various editors ("Wikipedia.htm" located at unrealroyal.com/page_1199151805093.html) in an attempt to identify and harass several Wikipedia users. No Personal Attacks and Harassment apply to any kind of attack or harassment in any context.  see also WP:NPA and Harassment. Linking to off-site harassment, attacks, or privacy violations against Wikipedians for the purpose of attacking another or multiple Wikipedians has never been acceptable on wikipedia. Websites outside Wikipedia that are used to facilitate, promote, or encourage the harassment of individual Wikipedia editors and those who choose to edit the encyclopedia is a serious matter, as evidenced by ArbCom rulings.


 * Consensus was achieved by multiple admins in the first request for removal, yet in pursuit of a certain point, despite that concensus, Wjhonson re-requested within 3 days of the other request being declined. This type of tendentious re-request is normamaly unusual, however it was uncovered there was something else going on . It was uncovered that Wjhonson was acting in a Meatpuppet capacity for the purpose of influencing the blacklisting, shows of support and for performing reverts and edits related to the interests of the site owner of unrealroyal.com. See here.


 * "You solicited to the owner of unrealroyal,(MAR), on groups.google.com, in a thead entiltled <U>Wikipedia is exceeding its own record of stupidity "By the way MAR, if there is something in particular about that article to which you object, let me know. I'm not adverse to battling it out on Wikipedia.", which clearly demonstrates your intent to misuse wikipedia. Of course MAR replies to your offer by linking direcly to the article, my userpage and the blacklist."


 * This ongoing "forum shopping" is continued evidence he is infact following through with his off wiki threat to "battle it out" by using wikipedia as a battleground and  foregoing aims of Wikipedia in order to advance outside interests. Reinforcing that Wjhonson states himself that "I don't think the argument of citing your article however will win" ....the site owner himself states..."I actually *agree* that under the policy, my site should not be used as a citation or reference", conclusively there is no valid reason for pursuing this matter except to WP:DISRUPT Wikipedia to illustrate a point.


 * Although the link is no longer on the blacklist (moot), this, does not excuse Wjhonson's behavior in manipulating Wikipedia in order to advance outside interests by acting in a capacity for the purpose of influencing, shows of support and for performing reverts and edits for the site owner of unrealroyal.com. Although his behaviour is clear misuse wikipedia and disruptive, I'll leave it to some other admin to propose sanctions. thanks--Hu12 (talk) 00:09, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * So at some point are you going to publicly admit that you created the article that started us down this long trail of tears in the first place? I think that's fairly relevant to your long-winded counter-attack above.  As for all the above I'll invoke WP:KETTLE which covers it quite nicely.  Have a great day. Wjhonson (talk) 09:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Nothing on MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist/archives/January_2008 justifies putting unrealroyal.com on the spam blacklist. All the arguments for doing so come from Hu12 who is a wiki spamcop. He should step well back and let someone else sort out this mess. CarbonLifeForm (talk) 10:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Wjhonson, did you somehow miss that tidbit in the KOM/Rfa? Arbitrators did not express any concerns, nor was there any to express. Interesting manor in which you phrase it, however. Guess you would find it relevant if your defense to my comments above is to mischaracterize that fact, to seem somehow unreasonable or improper. See article history. I'll invoke bothWP:SEI and the Duck test
 * CarbonLifeForm, in all your objectiveness, please explain then why was the offending page ("Wikipedia.htm" located at unrealroyal.com/page_1199151805093.html) was deleted from the site? Which, infact, occurred just prior to Wjhonson's removal request, and shortly after his "offer" to the site owner of UnrealRoyal? Perhaps your application of WP:COI is misplaced.--Hu12 (talk) 13:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no idea. I have never seen it. CarbonLifeForm (talk) 10:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Fine. It's not technically a spam site, so it does not technically belong on the spam blacklist.  However, it is unacceptable as a source or an external link, as described to you many times.  Therefore, there is no pressing need to take it off the blacklist, is there?  Because you certainly wouldn't want to get into an edit war by using it as source, would you?  Of course not. So, issue closed. Thatcher 13:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * As it is agreed that it is not a spam site, let it be removed from the blacklist of spam sites. Then the issue will be closed CarbonLifeForm (talk) 09:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * As I stated above its no longer on the MediaWiki blacklist. Agree, the issue is closed --Hu12 (talk) 11:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

After talking with JzG, will be unblocking user a few hours after the conclusion of the original 48h block. Orderinchaos 10:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Earlier today (or, depending on the time zone, yesterday or tomorrow) I blocked and  for forty-eight hours (essentially for edit-warring against each other). Apparently, Lucyintheskywithdada is the same person as the users noted at Suspected sock puppets/Lwachowski, from December 2007 (she openly admits that here). Now, the question is: should I/we indefinitely block Lucy and unblock Neal? I ask because none of the accounts on that page received progressive blocks, so it's not clear that Lucy is evading a ban. Additionally, Lucy does not appear to currently be using her current account alongside other sockpuppets, as she appeared to be doing when the SSP was file. Granted, as one can see by Lucy's contributions, she (particularly in conjunction with Neal) has been highly disruptive on articles related to Spiritualism. So, any thoughts? --  tariq abjotu  03:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I was toying with blocking Lucy as a tendentious and disruptive editor, so an indef there is good. I refrain from comment on Nealparr.  I have indefinitely blocked Lucyintheskywithdada for the reasons I noted on her talk page. Guy (Help!) 18:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn't see this until just now, but was also reviewing this situation as my experience with Neal has been that's he's a solid and constructive editor, albeit one whose views I often do not share. I too was about to indefinitely block User:Lucyintheskywithdada as a disruptive editor and questionably legit alternate accout, but I held off and left a note at User Talk:Orderinchaos, as that admin had more experience with the sockpuppetry issues surrounding this user. In any case, I am in general agreement with Guy's indefinite block, unless Orderinchaos has something ground-shifting to say about it. Personally, I would have given Nealparr a bit more benefit of the doubt on the 3RR thing, partly because he's had a long track record of constructive editing on tough topics, and partly because his "opponent" in this case has a quite different track record. Still, he did edit-war rather than seek outside help, and he did lose his patience. I'd favor a good-faith unblock of Neal and commutation to time served, with the understanding that this was an isolated and regrettable incident, won't happen again, lesson learned, etc. MastCell Talk 19:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I support unblocking Neal. I'd gladly do it myself, but have had previous interaction with him (perhaps ironically, we've often been on opposite sides of an issue). Raymond Arritt (talk) 22:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I support unblocking Neal, but I believe Lucy's should be commuted to the original block as imposed. On the Arbcom-probationed BK articles they have shown a newfound ability to work constructively with the other side and I think having the entire of one side blocked when the other side has an open conflict of interest is not a good idea. (For the record I believe both should be there so the article exhibits balance.) That being said, we shouldn't tolerate bad behaviour in unrelated areas for this reason alone, so I believe the original block should stand. Orderinchaos 02:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Developments since mean this thread is probably unnecessary now. Orderinchaos 10:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, sounds fine to me. MastCell Talk 18:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Indef'd User:Wfgh66
After escalating blocks, I have indef'd for copyright vio on his talk page. He was apparently enraged that his pet site, priory - of - sion (dot) com, was blacklisted, so he resorted to uploading the content to his talk page. Please be on the watch out for potential socks posting the same material. Ronnotel (talk) 20:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Correction, it was User:Sam Korn who indef'd. We seem to have ec'd on the indef button. Ronnotel (talk) 21:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have done a history delete on the talkpage, we don't need the information to be linked via e.g. a permanent link. --Dirk Beetstra T  C 21:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * How is uploading your own content to your own page a Copyvio? Thanks. Wjhonson (talk) 23:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not a copy vio, it's a violation of WP:POINT.  Horologium  (talk) 23:15, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Is Point now a violation that can cause a user to be indef'd? I don't recall that consensus gathering meeting where that was decided.  The entire episode from top-to-bottom here is a bit of an extreme reaction to the actual situation, imho. Wjhonson (talk) 23:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (EC) I was just going to post this: It is a violation of the GFDL if the text hasn't been released on a free license. Otherwise you end up with text under two licenses and that's a recipe for disaster. That's why even the authors of text need to formally release their material into a free license before we can host it. Spartaz Humbug! 23:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (responding to Wjhonson) He was blocked because of his abuse of the wikipedia e-mail system. That's why Pwok got indef-blocked, too. Look at Wfgh66's block log; the POINT violation was the straw that broke the camel's back, to use the old cliché. He was engaged in edit-warring, disruptive behavior and spamming. (That is why the site was blacklisted.)  Horologium  (talk) 23:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:POINT violations are disruptive, which is blockable. This users conduct severely Disrupted the project and persistently violated multiple policies or guidelines, where there is a consensus among uninvolved users that the violations were disruptive. Repeatedly he was warned and chose in pursuit of a certain point, to reject community input and consensus that his edits were disruptive.--Hu12 (talk) 06:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

If the rules stand in the way of blocking a blatant troll, we should ignore them.

Wjhonson, you don't appear to be addressing this user's behavior or what impact he has had on Wikipedia, but argue, "But WP:POINT says X! And policy says X!" This is a red herring.

In order to defend the indef block, others say, "No, but policy really says Y!"

My comment: The specific, technical wording of policy is irrelevant, per WP:IAR. The man was blatantly spamming Wikipedia with his website on the Priory of Sion, which reeks of self-published conspiracy theorism. He was blocked over doing this several times. He disrupted Wikipedia again, so now he should be banned. Again, the specific, technical wording of policy is irrelevant, per WP:IAR. &#9775; Zenwhat (talk) 00:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I respectfully disagree with your analysis of what actually occurred.Wjhonson (talk) 00:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And I respect your right to disagree. However, please be aware that this user was found by multiple admins to have engaged in seriously disruptive behavior. As stated above, it was a single purpose account with a WP:POINT agenda to flog his web site and willing to do pretty anything he could to do so. Disruptive editing, badgering emails, trolling, sock-puppetry, you name it. What's described above is literally the very last straw. At some point, WP has to accept that a certain individual has nothing useful to offer and move on. That point was reached. Ronnotel (talk) 02:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Pookeo9
Pookeo9 has had a history of creating tests, doing nonsensical things, and overall semi disrupting Wikipedia. So far, he has nominated 1 AfD (but then closed it as keep), and closed about 2 others. That's not so bad, but so far has files 2 RfA's that seem to be tests, or vandalism (Also 1 request for mediation). He might be trying to do good, and I am assuming good faith, but he is doing things that I have never seen before, and it is likely to continue. Just as an extra note, he has been given a final warning for vandalism. <span class="plainlinks" style="font-size:95%;font-variant:small-caps;font-weight:bold;letter-spacing: 2px;"> Soxred93 | talk count bot 23:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Vandalism and improper AfD closure by non-admin

This covered several categories, so I hope it's okay here. User:Pookeo9 has closed several AfDs, for example Articles for deletion/The Southern Cat Rocks On (check the history). User contribs: Special:Contributions/Pookeo9. It was suggested at the Help Desk that I bring this here. Wyatt Riot (talk) 23:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oops, see the above notes. Wyatt Riot (talk) 23:31, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * :) Yeah, I should have actually just posted here instead of both. But oh well. Thanks for reading that reply so fast! <span class="plainlinks" style="font-size:95%;font-variant:small-caps;font-weight:bold;letter-spacing: 2px;"> Soxred93 | talk count bot 23:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Just a note, it would be good to hear from Pookeo9 and his/her mentor/adopter - JetLover. I'll direct them here.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamunknown (talk • contribs) 23:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I have seen what you wrote and i did not know it was vandalism. I will remind my adopter one more time to look and comment if he/she can.--Pookeo9 (talk) 23:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC) P.S: Some things on wikipedia i have done were good and bad and i knew some bad things but i just couldnt stop doing it. As i said before i will remind my adopter one more time about this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pookeo9 (talk • contribs) 23:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I would like to politely suggest, until you gain quite a bit more experience, that you don’t try to close any more AfD debates. — Travis talk  01:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok Travis.--Pookeo9 (talk) 12:39, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Linkspammer issuing legal threats on talk page
(among many other IPs as well as the username 'Mondrago') has re-added the link to their personal website (which adds nothing to promote the content of the article and vios WP:EL) has gone 10RR+ and has some sort of "if we don't get our way we will sue you" jargon posted on their talk page. 156.34.222.28 (talk) 03:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Blocked for 31 hours. The user has also been warned for legal threats, and there is a sockpuppet case open regarding this IP, 3 others, and User:Mondrago. See also: Suspected sock puppets/Mondrago. UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 04:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The article has now been semi-protected due to increased vandalism of external linkspam from 5 IPs. UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 04:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll go ahead and add the link to the spam blacklist. Nakon  05:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I dunno man, are you sure you want to risk being sued for deformation (sic)? Resolute 05:59, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Good point, you could get bent out of shape... -- ChrisO (talk) 13:15, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Continuing
This discussion from the top which has since been archived.. I'm concerned about Lumberjake's actions on Wikipedia. Besides the above mentioned issue, see this. Editors removed his PROD and began sourcing the article. That wasn't good enough so he sent the article to AfD. Bells go off when an account only 5 days old is on a PROD removal spree, or PROD/AFD placement spree.. Then his edit summaries such as this, this, this and this PROD reason only further make me wonder what is going on here. - <font size="+1" color="red">&#10032; <strong style="letter-spacing:1px;font-family:Verdana">ALLSTAR <font size="+1" color="red">&#10032; echo 05:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * User is currently blocked; block is being reviewed. What is it that you would like us to do? El_C 09:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Nothing now. At the time I posted, he wasn't blocked. - <font size="+1" color="red">&#10032; <strong style="letter-spacing:1px;font-family:Verdana">ALLSTAR <font size="+1" color="red">&#10032; echo 10:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There's a puzzling thread on the mailing list about this. Relata refero (talk) 13:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible suicide note
<div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color: #ffeedd; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

... on Talk:I Hate Myself and Want to Die: The 52 Most Depressing Songs You've Ever Heard by. Someone from IRC said I should post it here instead of G8'ing it, so here I am. :P Cheers =) -- slakr \ talk / 09:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * By the way, the RWHOIS on the ip block (from shaw) says that it's an allocation for Medicine Hat, which is presumably a town in Alberta (Canada). Those would likely be the popos to call/notify so that they can call up the ISP and obtain customer info from their DHCP.  Cheers. -- slakr  \ talk / 09:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sadly enough, it will be too late by the time someone would get there. The average suicide note is left within 15 min of the action. This would be an interesting medium for someone to use - for what, attention? Sad. Rarelibra (talk) 09:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a sick joke or vandalism? Jmlk  1  7  09:24, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Disruptive Editing by user 3rd complaint
This user has been engaging in disruptive editing practices again on Jee Shim Weng Chun Kungfu. He was previously blocked twice for these practices. This includes consistently adding WP:OR, and material that violates NPOV. He has been engaged via the talk pages for his entries in the past as well and has had it explained how he needs verifiable references, not references to his own blog and forum pages. He has responded with continuous reverts to strong arm his edits. The user has also used multiple anonymous IP's. He just engaged in a revert war at Jee Shim Weng Chun Kungfu. I have stopped before violating 3rr. I'm requesting administrator intervention again. Here is the record for the previous blocks: IncidentArchive347 IncidentArchive348 Here's the current listing of anonymous IP's: 61.18.170.141, 61.18.170.108, 61.18.170.107, 61.18.170.129. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 09:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll sprotect it, for now. El_C 09:31, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Jay Brannan
162.84.234.178 has repeatedly over the last several days removed content from this article. Now the IP claims to be Jay Brannan on the IP's talk page. Then, I'm assuming this user registered and is now known as Jaybrannan, a user that just blanked both the article and the article talk page. I restored the article and talk page. The user then just now left me a message on my talk page regarding the deletion. Someone have a look? - <font size="+1" color="red">&#10032; <strong style="letter-spacing:1px;font-family:Verdana">ALLSTAR <font size="+1" color="red">&#10032; echo 10:09, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * User:slackr has blocked the account for 31 hours, and i've done the same for the IP —<font face="Trebuchet MS"> Reedy  Boy  10:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well before seeing this post, I blocked him for 3RR, since he was a bit out of control. I still have no idea if this is actually the dude or not, but if it is, it's still a huge conflict of interest issue, which I warned the IP he was editing under about.  -- slakr  \ talk / 10:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Help with possible rangeblock
Hi - my first post here as a new admin. I've noticed that Nancy Kulp has been subject to the same vandalism from Carleton University IPs (134.117.0.0 - 134.117.255.255 according to WHOIS) for several months. I think all the vandal IPs fit into 134.117.137.0/24, so I was thinking of blocking this range. Could someone confirm whether or not I'm right and if so for what sort of period I should block? Thanks! —S MALL JIM   12:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well Maxim has protected that page, but as I suspected, it's just made the vandal move on - see . —S MALL  JIM   14:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC) Oops, that was an old one!  —S MALL  JIM   14:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not an admin and not an expert on blocking, but I'd certainly hesitate to block a whole university. How many good edits are also coming from that range? Would it be the type of block that allows logged-in users to still be able to edit?  Do you have a feel for how many good contributors are using that range of IPs?  Is only one page affected by the vandalism, and if so, why not just semi-protect that page instead?  Surely a university is a fertile source of new, good contributors.  Putting a barrier in their way such as making them get an account in some more complicated way before being able to edit might just turn away potential excellent contributors before they ever discover what editing Wikipedia is really like.  Congrats on your RfA, by the way. --Coppertwig (talk) 15:46, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd be more inclined to avoid the rangeblock and leave the semi-protection in place. Unless we can demonstrate vandalism ac cross the project coming from that range. But one article can be protected and such is less damaging than a rangeblock. And thanks for asking first. Always a good idea. -JodyBtalk 15:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict; agree with JodyB.) My impression is that a rangeblock would be way overkill. I looked at the article and what I see is anon-IP's repeatedly inserting "(ironically)" into the article.  If you want to stop that, just semi-protect the article (or have a non-involved admin semi-protect it).  I looked at the contribs of one of the anon-IPs that added in that "ironically" thingy: .  I see a bunch of apparently (at a brief glance) good-faith edits on other articles plus one edit adding the word "ironically" to this article.  That's nowhere near enough vandalism to block even just that one IP, let alone a whole range, even if you consider  it to be vandalism rather than a content dispute which is discussed on the talk page.  I realize you're proposing to block a certain range, not the whole University, but still.  Just my opinion as a non-admin. --Coppertwig (talk) 15:59, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks both of you for the feedback. I certainly wouldn't have gone ahead with a rangeblock with my current level of knowledge without checking first: I know they can be problematic. You're right, of course that semi-protecting the page is a far better idea, though I was concerned that would just encourage the vandal to move on to other pages (as he has done at least once ). He's also been making a repetitive edit to James Lipton since the end of December.
 * It looks like most of the addresses in the range 134.117.137.18 - 134.117.137.253 have been active, so I guess dynamic allocation is being used. I've checked the contributions from a number of them and while there were quite a lot of good edits up to around 2006, there's not been so much since. Anyway, it's been more an exercise in detective work than anything actually useful, but at least it's made a change from continually rolling back "poop"! And I've learned some new stuff today, which is good. —S MALL  JIM   17:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

This is an honest question...
...but it could be absolutely trivial, so if I'm making a tempest in a teacup, please be kind...

Exploring the contributions list of ACMEMan(as part of an AfD issue I recently discovered) I discovered the following:

# 17:54, 29 January 2008 (hist) (diff) User talk:76.230.233.240‎ (←Created page with '(blocked)') 

This user is not an admin, and thus can't block anyone. Is it appropriate for non-admins to do such things? As I said--this is an honest question, and though it's a bit stale, I'm not trying to waste anyone's time--I'm still trying to learn my way around here a little better. Thanks... Gladys J Cortez 16:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you could leave a polite note for ACMEman explaining things. It seems like this could be a simple misunderstanding of how things work. Jehochman  Talk 16:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It's an ongoing misunderstanding, then. He's been doing that to IP user talk pages for a month now, as his contribs page shows. ThuranX (talk) 16:57, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec)Normally that's what I'd do...but if you'll take a peek at his talk page, you'll notice that much of it is dominated by AFD notices, placed there by yours truly. I have a sneaking suspicion that he would not take kindly to even the politest question, especially since there's a potential appearance of stalking. (NOT the case--I found one non-notable article he wrote, then discovered another on the same general topic, and figured I'd check his contribs to see how many more there might be--but I can see how it might look bad.)Gladys J Cortez 17:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've left them a note. <b style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</b> 17:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You are indeed full of awesome. Thanks! Gladys J Cortez 17:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

BrownHairedGirl involved in tendentious and disruptive editing
has just reverted much of my work from December and January, of converting external map service links to the more general geographical coordinates, improving existing coordinate tags, reviewing the quality of the results, and then removing the links from articles. She abused administrative and other tools by blindly reverting 220 edits, restoring all the removed links, and in many cases making the reusable coordinate information unavailable for now. Her tendentious and disruptive reversion spree was a result of an ongoing discussion on Wikipedia talk:External links, where she wasn't capable of thinking the situation in a wider perspective and her personal viewpoint of "any map link in all articles" wasn't supported by other participants, as opposed to clicking on the coordinates and choosing a link from the first page, though the same procedure had already been done with book sources and ISBNs. She was pointed out the Wikipedia policies against the inclusion of such links, but she decided to ignore those fundamental principles and go by her personal preferences. During the heated debate the last couple of days I had stopped all article editing related to this issue until more people voice in, but BrownHairedGirl lost her cool regardless and decided to go solo.

For background on this: My original edits were part of WP:GEO goals to "have a uniform, extensible way of accessing all types of map resources, avoiding having direct external links to maps in articles" by consolidating and standardising coordinate and map link use on Wikipedia. This goal is based on Five pillars, that Wikipedia information should be reusable, that external links to general map services are not information about the articles' topics when there exists dozens of other similar services usable with the same geographical coordinates, and that Wikipedia has a neutral point of view and it doesn't offer to readers or support any single external advertising supported map service over all the others, but readers will have to choose themselves. More details on these at Wikipedia talk:External links.

What can be done with administrators who disregard Wikipedia policies and revert other editors in a tendentious manner with nothing but their personal opinion behind their actions? Arbitration is probably too drastic as the damage she has done is only temporary and the information is easily recoverable, but there must be something to discourage such admin behaviour? --Para (talk) 07:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * BrownHairedGirl has the same right to edit as any other user, but mass-reverting good-faith edits doesn't seem to me to fit the intended purpose of admin tools, and puts Para at a severe disadvantage. Can we agree to stop these high-speed admin-tool-powered reverts now, and then work something out at WP:GEO, please? -- The Anome (talk) 07:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * WP:GEO would indeed be the right place for the discussion, but whenever users new to a debate join a discussion that has for the most part taken place on a wikiproject page, they are fast to point out that the participants haven't represented the views of the community, and that the discussion should not be continued there. The proposed correct location is often the village pump or other central dumping ground, but all discussions can't be had there, which is why they are separated on pages focused on some very specific topics. Should all wikiprojects that simply enforce Wikipedia policies and guidelines in an organised and centralised way then have the wikiproject connotation removed from their names? --Para (talk) 06:46, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * On review: yes, Para has a point -- this is very much like the links-to-Amazon issue for books. Sure, the ISBN link system is clunkier than a simple link to Amazon, but it gives the reader more choice, and avoids any suspicion of commercial promotion. -- The Anome (talk) 07:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * First thing: if a complaint is raised about someone at ANI, it is helpful to notify the person complained about so that they can respond, and it's a pity that Para did not to do so. Thanks to Luna Santin for pointing me to this discussion, which I would otherwise have been unaware of.
 * On the substance of this, there has been a lengthy discussion at WT:EL about Para's mass removal of all direct links to external map services. The discussion was an exceptionally difficult one, because of Para's repeated refusal to take seriously the deep concerns about the usability of the GeoHack system which were expressed by every other contributor to the discussion other than Para &mdash; everything was repeatedly and arrogantly brushed off as "resistance to change" or as "nonsense".
 * Para's summary above the discussion at WP:EL is a gross misrepresentation of that discussion, and in particular Para's attempt to conflate a series of policies into a ban on any direct links to map services is highly misleading. Para is acting as if there is a clear policy supporting his actions, when there is not, and refuses to listen to any objections.
 * It is quite clear from that discussion that there is no consensus for this mass removal until the usability of the GeoHack system is improved. (I believe that the discussion shows a consensus against, but Para disagrees on that point),
 * For now, the relevant guideline is at WP:EL, whose nutshell says "Adding external links can be helpful to everyone, but they should be restricted to those that are most meritable, accessible and relevant to the article." One or two direct links to a relevant map at an appropriate resolution are entirely in keeping with that guidance.
 * There is no objection from me (nor, so far as I can see from anyone else) to the addition of GeoHack links to articles which do not have them, and I would welcome that addition. The issue in dispute is solely Para's unilateral mass removal of all other links contrary to the existing guideline at WP:EL, before usability issues have been resolved.
 * Unfortunately, Para is engaged in a one-man exercise of mass-removal of direct map links, before usability problems have been resolved, and has adamantly refused requests from several editors to desist until the usability problems have been fixed, decrying the consensus against him as "resistance to change", which is a bizarrely arrogant description of widespread concerns about poor usability.
 * The folks at WP:GEO are doing good work in developing the GeoHack system, and I wish them well in developing the system further to improve its usability to the point where it is welcomed by other users as a satisfactory replacement for all map links. However, it's not there yet, and there was a very sensible proposal last night by User:Wikidemo, who wrote "The best, I think, is for anybody who feels strongly about this and/or wants to do a lot of good to develop our technology a little further, and maybe the usability of the way geocodes are displayed in articles. Once it's so good that everybody loves it, we can set about converting external map links to geocodes using bots."
 * Unfortunately, that wise proposal was immedaiately rejected by Para, who wrote "The best solution is to just go for it and then see about the comments.".
 * In response to that, I warned Para that any mass removal of direct links without consenus would amount to disruptive and tendentious editing ... and when I later checked Paras' contribs and found the extent to which this had already been done, I reverted those edits of Para's which were described in the edit summary as the removal of map links. (Note, I did not revert edits which described the addition of geohack links, or even of those which replaced map links with geohacks &mdash; in those cases, the map links should be restored but the GeoHack should stay, and simple reversion would be inappropriate).
 * As to a solution, it is not for the WP:GEO project to impose its system on the whole of wikipedia. I wish them luck in improving the GeoHack system, but for now the guidance at WP:EL permits a limited number of relevant links to external sources, and there is no consenus to ban any direct links to map services. If, as Wikidemo suggest, the folks at WP:GEO improve the usability of their system to the point where "everybody loves it", I'm sure that there will be consensus to change the guideline. However, we are not there yet, and Para's mass-removal should stop.
 * (BTW, in reply to The Anome, this is not the same issue as links to Amazon. Amazon exists to sell books, but Google Maps or Line Search Maps or Yahoo Maps are not trying to sell a product. Like online newspapers to which there are squillions of links, they are advertising-supported information services, which is a very different matter to a sales site.) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:02, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * BrownHairedGirl continues to ignore fundamental Wikipedia principles, doesn't even try justifying why they could just be brushed aside with her personal opinion, and seems to be completely ignorant of the fact that what she has done is not appropriate for someone who supposedly has the trust of the community and is expected to know Wikipedia policies. The book source system was taken into use and Amazon links removed, and the map sources system works exactly the same way, except that more attention has been given to usability. Both types of services benefit from incoming links, and with such services that have dozens of alternatives usable with a known identifier, Wikipedia should not promote any single one over the others. Even if the usability was on the same level for both, we could already move to using the centralised map sources page as there's the precedent and supporting policies, but BrownHairedGirl insists on imposing her personal preferences on all Wikipedia readers.
 * The only people to ever have complained of my removal of map links are, who then alerted BrownHairedGirl to speak for her, and we all know now how she delt with that. All comments of her disruptive actions have been negative, and people have already started reverting her reversions independently . I am not alone at all in converting map links to coordinates, see for example the entirely independent edits from these users during the couple of days I was monitoring external link changes:
 * 201.38.195.168
 * Americasroof
 * New World Man
 * Blinadrange
 * Asn
 * Majoreditor
 * Nyttend
 * See also the WP:GEO discussion on getting rid of all external map service templates, at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geographical coordinates, where there was a clear consensus to remove the links. The people opposing the change there only had concerns that have been taken care of since.
 * In addition to the direct map links BrownHairedGirl restored, she also restored a WikiMapia link to 900 articles through a template, though the links had been gone for almost a month already without a single complaint. WikiMapia in particular is an ad infested website that, despite the name, only has the community editing part of the site common with Wikipedia, but keeps the results of the work for themselves. Such a site shouldn't be supported in any Wikipedia article except the one about the site itself. People who really want to use it can choose it from the list of all other Google Maps mashups.
 * I expect BrownHairedGirl herself to have to revert her own reversions. Meanwhile, as there is obviously a majority supporting the removal of external map links, how do we get that in the guidelines so that other opinionated revert warriors ignorant of Wikipedia's goals won't go on the same path? Guidelines are after all just extensions and longer explanations of the existing policies, but obviously a direct note about this is needed in WP:EL. Generally it has been very difficult to get people comment on a minor issue such as map links or coordinates. Should everyone identified in editing map links or coordinates be contacted directly, or can we just act based on the existing fundamental policies? --Para (talk) 21:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Use of rollback
Just as an aside, isn't the rollback tool only allowed for "obvious" vandalism? Lawrence §  t / e  21:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The mass removal of valid links which are not deprecated by policy or guideline seems to me like a very appropriate use of rollback, and I will not revert my rollbacks. Despite Para's long posting above, the fact remains that in the discussion at WT:EL, I can see no-one else supporting Para's purge of all direct map links.
 * Para points us to a discussion at WP:GEO, but a wikiproject does not make policy or guidedline for wikipedia as a whole. And it's very depressing to see that despite a clear consensus at WT:EL not to support the amendment of the guideline, Para claims that "there is obviously a majority supporting the removal of external map links". That's a transparent falsehood, and it's very disappointing to see Para trying to make all these false assertions. In two years of editing wikipedia, I have never before encountered any editor so utterly unwilling to listen, and so determined to ignore consensus. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Which part of the discussion on WP:EL makes you think there is consensus in any way? Perhaps I'll summarize: I support removing map links, Wikidemo supports removing map links, SEWilco supports removing map links, DanBealeCocks prefers the list of map services over single links, Sarah777 likes Yahoo and WikiMapia and would have liked to have been notified of changes, BrownHairedGirl likes any map link as long as it's directly on the page, some anonymous user dislikes the WikiMiniAtlas, and EdJohnston seems yet to have decided on an opinion. No matter how many ways I try to count this in or weigh the arguments, I can't see how anyone could come to the conclusion that the discussion is finished or is showing any consensus at all. Above I provided diffs of edits where 9 different people have removed map links from articles. What kind of inverted view of consensus do you have?? --Para (talk) 01:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Para, I don't know why you persist in repeating so many untruths, but I have never before come across a wikipedia editor who will so blatantly claim that black is white.
 * I'm not going to waste time summarising how you have misrepresented several editors, but I'll just repost wikidemo's latest comment in full, highlighting in bold the points where wikidemo specifically opposes the mass removal of links at this stage:
 * "Maybe everyone should take a little chill. This issue isn't new and it's not getting resolved soon, so no emergency worth getting personal over. I don't think it's a good idea to link directly to map services, and I would probably remove such a link if it appeared for no good reason in an article I was working on. At the same time we have 300,000 and it's premature to delete them en masse from articles without having a really good system in place. The best, I think, is for anybody who feels strongly about this and/or wants to do a lot of good to develop our technology a little further, and maybe the usability of the way geocodes are displayed in articles. Once it's so good that everybody loves it, we can set about converting external map links to geocodes using bots. We could even give people some notice and warning time so they can put a "do not convert" flag somewhere for the bots, if they strongly feel that a particular external link to a mapping service should remain. Of course they could always just revert the bot too"
 * If you really think that "it's premature to delete them en masse from articles without having a really good system in place" should be read as meaning "I support Para's zealous insistence on immediate mass removal of all direct links to maps", then you need to do some urgent remedial work on your reading comprehension skills.
 * Anyone else concerned about this issue should read the thread for themselves rather than relying on the bizarre misrepresentations posted here and elsewhere by Para. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The only remaining usability issue that has been reported is the interpretation of the title "Global", on whether it indicates map sources with data on a global scale, or if it means services that only show a globe. Nobody has confirmed the issue or suggested other alternatives, but it is of course listed in the appropriate place for further comments. Absent any other issues, we can say that the system is good or at least as good as the book sources list, and the quoted comment from Wikidemo is therefore unrelated. To further quote the same editor :


 * "for the sake of consistency and fairness, where we have essentially the same need on 300,000 articles we shouldn't be linking to external web services on an ad-hoc basis. Best to have a standardized, predictable way of doing it so that all the users know what to expect and we're not in the position of favoring one advertising-supported commercial service over another. I like the system where the coordinates bring up the template, and the template gives users a choice of which mapping service to use for a display. We should then discourage people from including their own maps"


 * Making Wikipedia's external linking neutral is an ideological issue, and BrownHairedGirl's personal opinions are irrelevant when keeping Wikipedia's principles in mind. Book sources have already been centralised, and so will map sources. BrownHairedGirl is acting from a minority viewpoint mostly represented by herself alone, and any of her attempts to keep Wikipedia biased should be reverted. --Para (talk) 06:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * cough* Alone? I have not been silent in my opposition to it, nor have other users. Orderinchaos 11:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I participated briefly in this discussion and overall, it's pretty clear that the way to go in the long run to remove links to specific mapping services in favor of a universal geocoding system promoted by the appropriate wikiproject. It seems that 282,000 of 300,000 articles already take this approach but that there's some objection to mopping up the last 18,000, on account of the geolinking service on Wikipedia is clunky and takes extra clicks to use. That's a fair criticism, and if the community really thinks so, it's valid request to ask the geo people to go back to the design lab and come back when the feature is perfected. I don't know what it even means to talk about consensus in such a context, but in any event the bickering between BrownHairedGirl and Para at the village pump has gotten so intense that it's very hard to tell what's going on, and unpleasant to participate in the discussion. Perhaps a full review would reveal that one or the other started it or is being unreasonable, but I'm just an editor and it's not worth the frustration to wade into someone else's flame war. In any event I don't see any chance of a new consensus emerging as long as the discussion is so hot (which leaves open the question of what the current consensus really is about these articles). Perhaps they both need to take a short or long-term break from this issue, or invoke some kind of mediation. In any event it would seem inappropriate for any party to such a dispute to use administrative tools or privileges to have their way - even if administrative action is called for it would be a lot better if it could come from a disinterested party. Wikidemo (talk) 11:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The proposed Rollback policy does not seem to me to countenance rollback for "the mass removal of valid links which are not deprecated by policy or guideline seems to me like a very appropriate use of rollback" as suggested by BHG above. Can those in favour of rollback for such purposes please get consensus on that page either for changing the rollback policy/guideline or for correcting that document's mis-statement of WP policy? Thincat (talk) 11:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Allowing the use of mass-rollback over content disputes in this manner, sets a chilling precedent for editors without this tool. It is not an appropriate manner for dealing with the issue.  The previous versions should be mass-rollbacked and dispute resolution should be entered.  This is a content issue.  Admin tools were not given for the purpose of engaging in content wars. Wjhonson (talk) 16:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * So far we have four people who feel that this was an inappropriate use of rollback. Anybody else care to weigh in, or is this "chilling precedent" going to stand? Pairadox (talk) 01:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally (and I'll admit a past involvement with this matter) my perception of this situation is that Para and SEWilco have been quite difficult to deal with with regards to this. They seem to have decided in absence of any community consensus on what they are going to do, are mid-way through implementing it, and there is nothing anyone can do to stop them. It's an approach that flies completely in the face of consensus-building. Developers of the map link templates such as myself are getting occasional bouts of criticism for doing nothing about these incursions. It seems like WP:OWN on a grand scale where a small wikiproject has decided to take ownership of a particular attribute on thousands of articles. While there have been some minor improvements, a quick inspection of the WP:GEO talk page will put paid to any notion that there is a consensus or that they take criticism on board. As far as they are concerned, this is going to happen whether we like it or not. As such, I support the actions taken by BrownHairedGirl to date. When we become admins, we are expected to protect the encyclopaedia from vandalism and disruption. This is very much a behaviour issue, not a content issue. Orderinchaos 10:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd like to add with regards to "inappropriate use of rollback" that rollback is a tool. It's a technical mechanism that works as a fast undo. Any editor who can make a snap decision that a particular edit should be reverted (either because of the nature of the editor or the nature of the edit) is going to do so, rollback or no. I don't think the method of reverting is relevant. • <font color="#539">Anakin (talk) 11:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Rollback is for controversial edits. During December and January when map links were removed from those 220+900 articles (and others), only a single editor protested the removal from her 3 articles. This is not a sign of the kind of community wide controversy that would give reason to a massive retroactive rollback by one deeply involved administrator. Using rollback in this manner is abuse of a tool which is restricted to the use of people who have been trusted not to do anything controversial with it. Orderinchaos seems to be disgruntled for having been left in a minority when trying to oppose the removal of another more organised linkspamming. I cannot fathom how people can even think that promoting some specific external service over all its alternatives would be following WP:NPOV, when it in most cases isn't even the "most popular" and therefore not the most relevant or the most useful for the article. --Para (talk) 12:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I completely object to the above characterisation of my actions. As a user and admin with 26,000 edits and a two-year history including getting one of the geographical articles to FA status in a project which has thousands of articles which are affected by these arbitrary decisions, and getting asked by others in my project why I had not stood up for common sense in the face of such blatant hostility, I finally decided a month or two ago that enough was enough and something needed to be done. As Para will recall, we had previously been on cooperative terms when another now-Arbcom banned editor was causing all manner of havoc at a Geo-related page, and I supported the introduction of Coord on just terms. There seems to be two disputes here, one of which relates to the direct placement of links in articles, which I have always opposed (apart from being messy, it's also impossible to manage from any point of view), the other relates to the indirect placement of links via Mapit/Geolinks templates, which I have always supported. This is not "linkspamming", and to use such language towards a long-standing user is, in anyone's language, inflammatory. My genuine concern, and I've seen evidence of it, is that since WP:GEO started trying to force change on the latter issue in November last year, users (not including myself) have been fighting back by removing the templates entirely and resorting to manual links. This moves us from a situation which we can manage, to a permanent battleground. Orderinchaos 18:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There is not, and has never been, any kind of policy, nor consensus, that restricts the usage of rollback to "only vandalism", nor anything similar. Rollback is a tool, not a big deal, and does absolutely nothing that cannot be reproduced by many script tools, as well as the default edit button. All these allusions to a non-existent policy must stop, just like we weed out the equally misleading non-policy idea that "you may not remove warnings from your talk page".  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  13:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict)Comment from previously uninvolved editor/admin Rollback is for non-controversial reverts; vandalism, countering 3RR violations, etc. Notwithstanding its possible inappropriate use in the context of the above content dispute, the attempt to have BrownHairedGirl sanctioned for using it in that dispute has not gained traction. It is not "abuse" of the tools since it only replicates the effect of the undo option or choosing the previous edit in the article history - it confers no special or unique power to a sysop.
 * WP:ANI is not the venue to continue the content dispute. There are other places to pursue resolution; please use them. I am marking this resolved since there is nothing that any admin can or will do. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it's an appropriate discussion to have here. Any use of administrative tools to gain the upper hand in a content dispute is abuse.  The argument that they simply achieve the same thing as a non-adminstrative tool is spurious.  If the administrative tool were no better than what we non-administrators have, then why use it?  Administrative privileges aren't granted to allow some people to be super-editors.  Wikidemo (talk) 16:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know where you were a week or so ago, but there was quite a few discussions relating to the fact that Rollback had been made available to all editors of "good standing" via Twinkle (not that I had remembered this when I wrote the above a few hours ago). Also, the point stands that Rollback achieves nothing that Undo or choosing the previous edit in the article history doesn't means that this tool gives a sysop any extended power in a content dispute. Therefore the argument should not be about the tool but why it was used; and that is a content dispute, and this is not the right place for such matters. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

(OD) Perhaps I misunderstood the first above. It appeared that the objection was that admins have some sort of special tool for mass-rollback, not one-by-one rollback. I'm sure we can all agree that blind-reverts of 220 edits in one long spree is tendentious editing. I actually respect BrownHairedGirl, I've seen some of her comments and they seem spot-on in many situations. But this shouldn't be simply igored as a typical editor reaction. This isn't the way we want to approach consensus editing. Instead, if Brownhaired Girl felt this was highly inappropriate, that is why we have dispute resolution. An RfC, Mediation, etc would have handled it quite properly.Wjhonson (talk) 00:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * (resolved label removed - an important point has yet to be made). I've reviewed the edits that were of concern, and I agree that rollback was being used inappropriately here because, and this is important, the edit summaries were not informative enough and the edits were being marked as minor. Three styles of edit summaries were used:
 * (1) "Reverted 1 edit by Para. using TW"
 * (2) "Reverted 1 edit by Para; Rv, per discussion at Wikipedia talk:External links, there is no consensus for this mass removal of links. using TW"
 * (3) "Reverted edits by Para (talk) to last version by Raymond Cruise"
 * The third one is the rollback summary, the first and second are TWINKLE summaries. The second edit summary is good, and (except for the use of "minor") should have been used for all the other edits as well. Please, please, please, do not use rollback for mass non-vandalism reversions like this without using a custom edit summary (pointing to where there was consensus to use rollback in this way) and removing the "minor edit" label. Rollback is very bad at leaving a paper trail to help editors reviewing the edits to work out why the reversion was done - unless, of course, it is obvious vandalism! There are several scripts available that enable people to modify rollback to output custom edit summaries. One is User:Gracenotes/rollback.js, described at Wikipedia talk:Requests for rollback/Archive 5. Another is User:Mr.Z-man/rollbackSummary.js, described at the bottom of Wikipedia talk:Requests for rollback. I am going to update WP:ROLLBACK to include this, and I will notify BHG, Radiant!, Wjhonson and other people in the above thread. Carcharoth (talk) 01:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks to Carcharoth for a productive and pro-active approach to a sticky situation!Wjhonson (talk) 01:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No problems! :-) Those who are interested, please see here for a discussion on how best to phrase all this in the documentation. I've left various other notes around, so hopefully people will realise the sense in using custom edit summaries for non-vandalism reverts (regardless of what tool is used to do the reverts, be it rollback, undo, or some combination using scripts). Ideally, people on a dedicated run of rollbacking vandalism (eg. RC patrolling) would also have a custom edit summary enabled (eg. "rollback of vandalism reviewed during recent changes patrolling"). People spotting the ocassional instances of vandalism during normal editing will still find it quicker to hit rollback, and I am aware (before someone says this) that there is no requirement to use edit summaries at all, but it makes a great deal of sense to use informative edit summaries where possible. Carcharoth (talk) 01:43, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous IP's anti-semitism.
Someone posted on WP:FTN about some people pushing the fringe theory that Jewish women did not originate in the Middle East.

So, I posted on the talkpage :

Talk:Palestinian people

then made this rant. 

I'm not Jewish, actually. And characterizing those you disagree with as Jews is a bit off-the-wall, aside from the claims that the Jews are all lying about their heritage.

Looking at his contribs list, he actually was making genetic comparisons between Jews and Palestinians on the article on Palestinian people!  &#9775; Zenwhat (talk) 21:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No opinion on whether the IP is being used for antisemitic trolling, because I haven't looked, but I've posted to that talkpage and to WP:FT/N that studying genetic differences between populations is fairly standard in population genetics. Actually, to tell the truth, its almost all they ever do, the boring fellows. Relata refero (talk) 22:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * When IPs make racist remarks, remove the remarks and move on with your life. Maybe warn 'em, or block 'em if they've been a problem before. Wily D  22:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Please look at the diff above before commenting. The population genetics of Jews do not belong in the article on Palestinian people. WilyD, I'm not a politically-correct person who is particularly bothered by racism. I just brought this here because this is where it belongs, no?. Telling me to "move on with my life" and "maybe" warn them in response to being accused of being a Jew is quite frankly absurd. &#9775; Zenwhat (talk) 22:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * "accused of being a Jew"? Wow. That's...an interesting sentence construct, there. Wow.Gladys J Cortez 19:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The IP sounds like a bad lot, but comparative genetics are not per se racist or antisemitic. Can we establish that, please? And the comparative genetics of X people is hardly an irrelevant subject for the article on X people. I have no opinion on the specific content that the IP added to the article, but your general claims are overstated. Relata refero (talk) 23:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Err, once IPs go dormant, there's often little point in blocking them - unless they're a) actively misbehaving, or b) persistantly misbehaving, there's really nothing to do, and you've not suggested either is the case. Wily D 00:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Population genetics are not anti-semitic. I never said they were. &#9775; Zenwhat (talk) 23:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

It would seem obvious to me that the relationship of the palestinian people to others peoples is relevant in an article about them; population genetics is probably the most reliable objective evidence. The difficult come because, like all evidence, it can be interpreted or quoted in ways that unfairly emphasize a particular point of view--as is routine in this particular topic. the rule of citing all positions holds, as it always does. . DGG (talk) 00:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think I see what Zenwhat was getting at - it's not the use of population genetics that's looks a bit antisemitic, as that's merely a standard research technique, it's the rather hostile comments about "CURRENT jews got caught red handed ( historically) stealing a land that their recent or ancient ancestors never been to" (sic). I've seen worse, to be honest. As the others have said above it's not really worth blocking an IP unless it's doing this kind of thing routinely or in large volumes. I'd just remove the anon's comments from the thread as not being relevant to improving the article (see WP:TALK). -- ChrisO (talk) 01:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible oversight required
Creator of this Mike Ward (TV director) article has unfortunately put a private email address in the edit summary. Pollytyred (talk) 23:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ without oversight...nat.utoronto 23:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The deletion has been oversighted, also. <i style="color:#FF00FF;">~Kylu ( u | t ) </i> 02:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Jw120550 in continual edit warring
Jw120550 is a new user, but recently engaged in an edit war on Nancy Pelosi. In fact, he violated 3RR a few days ago, after being warned, and I had the report completely typed up, but right before I was ready to submit, he promised to stop:. He did not:. He has also vandalized the same page via his IP:. I ask for someone to please block this user. The Evil Spartan (talk) 01:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And I believe I've found a second IP used for vandalism: . The Evil Spartan (talk) 01:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know what his deal is but again tonight and for some reason this .  R. Baley (talk) 09:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I want to ask that any admin looking at this, hold off on any action (involving the "buttons". . .any other assistance is, of course, appreciated) at this point. Thanks, R. Baley (talk) 10:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Is someone going to respond to this? Why do my ANI posts go unheeded so often? The Evil Spartan (talk) 22:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Repeated false additions to World Heavyweight Championship
User Charaxes‎ and IP's 64.85.130.207‎ and 64.85.130.139‎

Are adding information to World Heavyweight Championship that is incorrect and completely false. I beleive all ips are from the same. Always posting and deleting the same material. Has refused to pay attention to numerious warnings. --DanteAgusta (talk) 03:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Add IP 64.85.131.147 to the list--DanteAgusta (talk) 05:02, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:RFPP? D.M.N. (talk) 09:57, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This is fundamentally not something that belongs at AN/I; it's a content dispute and you should pursue the standard dispute resolution options. If it needs to be brought to admin attention, take it to WP:AN3 and note that you, too, appear (at a cursory glance) to be risking a 3RR violation, too.  Rdfox 76 (talk) 16:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok thank you. I am new and have been trying ot read through all the information about this, but it is vast. --DanteAgusta (talk) 18:47, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Sharadtriyama inserting fair use images on Julia Allison
Someone else watch the page, because I am taking it off my watchlist.  m <font color="#4CBB17">ir <font color="#ADFF2F">a <font color="#4CBB17">nd  a   02:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC) After many warnings, Sharadtriyama is continuing to insert a fair use image to Julia Allison even when there is a plain consensus that a free image of her is on the page. She uploaded and. She inserts the image here and here. I told her to stop doing so, but she continues the behavior here. I am not violating 3RR due to the free content exception, but one of two options need to happen. Either fully protect the page, or block Sharadtriyama from editing.  m <font color="#4CBB17">ir <font color="#ADFF2F">a <font color="#4CBB17">nd  a   04:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And, she has broken 3RR.  m <font color="#4CBB17">ir <font color="#ADFF2F">a <font color="#4CBB17">nd  a   04:26, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've left her a note explaining the situation. If it continues, blocks will follow, but hopefully that won't prove necessary. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This is turning into a wheel war. I would strongly ask someone to fully protect the page, because I am tired of reverting the page because of some picture of her not putting on her best dress, etc. (i.e. pathetic minute details which are disruptive). Cheers.  m <font color="#4CBB17">ir <font color="#ADFF2F">a <font color="#4CBB17">nd  a   21:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Condoleezza Rice Article
Somebody who knows how needs revert the obvious vandalism to the photo used in the Condoleezza Rice article. I attempted to revert it myself, but could not revert back to the correct photo --TommyBoy (talk) 04:26, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, that's a doozy. I've replaced the image with a cropped version of the original from Commons, but I'm not sure how to get the good original back. The article is OK for the time being, but we should probably fix the original image. UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 04:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It was a vandal on Commons who also vandalized Image:Rumsfeld1.jpg and Image:Oprah Winfrey (2004).jpg. I've reported it to the vandal board over there, but it's a bit of a ghost town. If any Commons admins see this, please go block Commons:User:Downstage. - <font color="#0000cd">auburn <font color="#EF6521">pilot  talk  05:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Has been blocked by Commons:User:LX. Sandstein (talk) 18:49, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

User talk:129.133.124.199
Could an admin or admins please review User talk:129.133.124.199? The IP editor is making a lot of claims against a couple of other people that need to be addressed and the editor either admonished or their complaints resolved. <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix talk  06:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Warning again... perhaps an umpteenth opinion will set him straight? Sasquatch t|c 08:02, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This is from two weeks ago... How is this an incident? Or, why did it come up now?El_C 09:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Because there was an edit war going on over removing and reinstating the comments. <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix  talk  20:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Assistance needed with restoration of "Ecovillage" article
I am in a bit of a state and need the help of someone with more tools than I have. Here's the situation:


 * On January 26, KVDP put a note at Talk:Ecovillage that proposed a move to Sustainable neighbourhood. He put a merge tag on the "Ecovillage" article, but then, inexplicably removed it that same day.
 * On January 27, DWaterson put a merge tag on the Ecovillage article suggesting a merge to Sustainable city.
 * On January 29, following comments by these two users at Talk:Sustainable city, but no comments at "Talk: Ecovillage," KVDP moved "Ecovillage" to "Sustainable neighbourhood."
 * I only happened on this latter discussion on February 2. By that time four users had commented at "Talk: Sustainable city." Two, (myself being one) were adamantly opposed to any merger of the "Ecovillage" article. Only one (KDVP) has spoken in favour of such a move. However, I then discovered that the move had already taken place.
 * Unfortunately I freaked out and, forgetting everything I had ever learned about page moves, copied the old ecovillage article back to its original location. Of course, the problem with that is that the page history remains with Sustainable neighbourhood.

There seems little doubt that there should continue to be an article for "Ecovillage." The term is well-known and there is a worldwide network of ecovillages. The term "ecovillage" gets 287,000 hits on Google; "sustainable neighbourhood" only 9,500. Moreover, two days (or even five days) seems insufficient for discussion of a move of an article that has been extant since April, 2002. Would someone be willing to restore the "Ecovillage" article's page history? I would think that "Sustainable neighbourhood" (whatever that may be) could be a redirect to "Ecovillage," but not the other way around. Sunray (talk) 00:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I got the history of Ecovillage out of the way, so you can do whatever you want now. <small style="background:#fff;border:#000 1px solid;color:#000;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap">east<big style="color:#090">. 718 at 02:23, February 3, 2008
 * Many thanks. Sunray (talk) 02:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Recommend that somone adopt
has a history of making irrelevant, "chatty" comments on article talk pages that do not pertain to improving the article, with no additional substance. Some examples are here, here, here, here, and here. The inappropriateness of such comments has been pointed out repeatedly to this user. Most recently, he/she has tried to use his/her talk page as an opinion forum or social networking website. I'm not sure if this is just a user who simply doesn't "get it", or if it's a practical joke. But I think if the user will agree to be adopted it might be a step forward. Thanks. Ward3001 (talk) 00:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The portal for adoption is at Adopt-a-User, The user has expressed a desire to be adopted Diff. I will point them in the correct direction. Jeepday (talk) 01:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Continued problems over Sumerian kings


Could someone please intervene with a relatively new user User:Sumerophile who has repeatedly been adding parent categories to all of the Sumerian king articles that are already in subcats. I have asked him numerous times over the past few days, including on his talkpage, to read WP:SUBCAT and at least engage in meaningful discussion as to why he feel an exception should be made, but he has not deigned to address this question at all, and instead continues to revert me without explanation whenever I remove the parent cats on all of these articles, and back and forth it goes. He will not listen to me and I have also been trying for some time in vain to get anyone else to take an interest in the overall situation, to no avail or response, so this is like a last resort. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, so much for my "last resort". I told you, I have tried everything else but it seems like nobody these days gives a crap about Sumerian Kings or their articles besides me and him, and he is meanwhile becoming increasingly hostile. I don't know where to turn now. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 02:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Can you provide some diffs linking to hostile remarks? It isn't that no one gives a crap about Sumerian Kings, its that administrators have no power over article content - merely conduct. If you can demonstrate that some intervention is necessary regarding editor conduct, then the noticeboard can help you. <strong style="color:#fff;background:#000;border:1px solid #ccf">Avruch <strong style="color:#fff;background:#000;border:1px solid #ccf">talk 02:40, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Notification of injunction relating to episodes and characters
The Arbitration Committee, in Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2, have voted to implement a temporary injunction. It can be viewed on the case page by following this link. The injunction is as follows:

"For the duration of Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2, no editor shall redirect or delete any currently existing article regarding a television series episode or character; nor un-redirect or un-delete any currently redirected or deleted article on such a topic, nor apply or remove a tag related to notability to such an article. Administrators are authorized to revert such changes on sight, and to block any editors that persist in making them after being warned of this injunction."

As noted in the text of the injunction, this restriction is in effect until the Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2 case is officially closed by a clerk, following a successful motion to close by the arbitrators. Please note that, for the purposes of enforcement (cf. the final line of the text of the injunction), all parties in this case at the time of this message (link) have been notified of this injunction.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Daniel (talk) 02:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

swatjester
I had my user page history legitimately deleted today. An admin called went and restored it against my wishes. Pleawee can another admint ake a look and warn him. It appears to eb part of a dispute he has with me at Perverted-Justice. Thanks, SqueakBox 04:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Being discussed two sections below. Nakon  04:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * ... of course...everything that isn't exactly as SqueakBox wants is some sort of personal vendetta against the king of personal vendettas. That "because of my protection against his poor edits on X article" accusation/reason is getting old... VigilancePrime (talk) 04:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Legal threat
<font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix talk  04:02, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Gone. Nakon  04:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The legal threats continue - . <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix  talk  04:18, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Talk page blanked as a courtesy and protected. Nakon  04:28, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Image renaming

 * Bugzilla link: 709

While it's not currently possible to move/rename images, Betacommand has a bot that can perform the function for us the hard way.

Requests for image movement should be placed at the bottom of Wikipedia talk:Image renaming. Admins are automatically authorized for the use of this tool, and non-admins may be added by having an admin list you at the bottom of Image renaming, which also includes instructions on using the tool.

There is no "Requests for" process involved, you just need to have a reasonably good edit history.

Related pages can be found in Category:Image renaming <i style="color:#FF00FF;">~Kylu ( u | t ) </i> 06:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Bizarre behaviour of User:Dbmoodb
Frankly, I'm not certain if this is appropriate for this forum. But anyway I'm puzzled and frankly rather irritated by the sub-troll behaviour of User:Dbmoodb. He mostly confines himself to user page stuff which he defines as "silly" but makes an occasional foray into article editing. All very teenage. No big deal - many of us have kids.

Most of his edits are reverted but (and here's the troll thing) he comes back much later and either re-does the edits or makes stupid comments on talk pages. It's parasitic on the goodwill of other editors and the openness of WP. The example that's prompted this is a series of "silly" edits to one paragraph in a boring little article called Moriah College, Sydney.

Here's my question: do you leave this sort of thing alone (i.e. Don't Feed The Trolls) and accept a minor level of corruption to WP, or do you tackle it head on, which is like smacking a child for doing childish things (i.e. you usually end up apologising for being a brute?

Answers on a postcard please.

andy (talk) 21:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "Penzance: A View of the Art Deco Lido (circa 1952)" (other side) This is an encyclopedia - children should use a colouring book if they wish to draw doodles. Remove the vandalism, and if they don't get bored or grow up then send them to their room without biccies; i.e. warn them. Hope that helps. Weather horrible. Wish we weren't here! LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "Greetings from Baltimore, Maryland" When in doubt revert, block, ignore. The weather is here, wish you were beautiful. Wildthing61476 (talk) 22:15, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks. RBI it is. Winter weather gets me down sometimes. andy (talk) 10:03, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello there Andy. I did warn you that I was watching you. Some of My early behaviour was incorrect, changing languages to suit the traditional English, but if you wish to look through my edits you will notice that I am not some sub-troll. I do not just edit user pages, Barkochbar's page was altered because I thought he was South African after I found out he was not I stopped adding this erroneous information to the page. I do have fun and do not follow normal behaviour at times. However, when I edit articles I edit articles seriously. I edit them for wikipedia and the world. I do not edit them to troll. If i see an error I will fix it. Andy you seem to want to attack me for correcting your grammar to the Moriah college article after I had put a hold on to the Milw0rm page. The Milw0rm page you deleted and would not provide me with a full explanation DGG will hopefully soon (I have contacted him and provided my email). DGG told you off for not being polite. You are incorrect to post here. This page is to be used after you have posted on my user page the exact issue. I have posted on your user page and given you warning for personally attacking me. Thus, we must go through the dispute process and "This page is not part of our dispute resolution process". Hence would an admin please inform Andy about how to use this page and remove mine and his post. Andy I wish to proceed down the dispute resolution process. Remember Andy I am watching you. I openly invite users to review my contributions. It will get you silliness points. Dbmoodb (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 04:04, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have warned the above editor with regard to the comments "I was/am watching you." I consider them and the tone of the above to constitute harassment. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not consider my post to hassmesnt. I notify andy of what we should do and give my version of my history on wikipedia. It is not an offense to watch a user the logs are made public for good reason. Threatening or hassasing him would be. I have informed you of by believes here and suggest that you and everyone watches me. I urge you to reconsider your warning LessHeard in this case. I have not attempted to intimitate just inform. I also suggest that this is remove or moved elsewhere because it does not belong here.Dbmoodb (talk) 08:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous IP has threatened an editor

 * has just made this threat. Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 21:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh. Him again. Looks like the little monkey has learned how to use random IPs this time. Marvellous.HalfShadow (talk) 21:35, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Blocked by Jéské Couriano. Sandstein (talk) 21:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Reported all IPs to the Grawp CU case to see if they're possibly related to Group I (Senang Hati (impersonator) and his socks), and left a warning on one of the IP's pages that any more death threats will result in an abuse report to the ISP. -Jéské ( Blah v^_^v ) 21:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, all. That's the D&D vandal/Grawp alright. I've seen that same text either on my talk page before or on that of User:Gavin.collins; would have to look in the histories. The IP's are throwaways and Jéské and Alison seem to be on top of this guy. I say that Alison blocked a large range the other day, but the problem child seems to have a deep toolbox. Cheers, Jack Merridew 07:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not Grawp, unless he decided to move to where Grawp was in the books, according to Alison. All five IPs are British; the range Alison blocked resolves to Bloomfield, Colorado. -Jéské ( Blah  v^_^v ) 10:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

PresterJohn continues misrepresenting source in BLP
In article David Hicks /Religious and militant activities/Afghanistan a source lists allegations against David Hicks. US charges David Hicks

Prester John continues to edit to present the allegations as facts/admissions. This problem has been discussed on the talk pages of David Hicks with PresterJohn and on Talk to the Hand/"David Hicks allegations" section.

Misrepresenting edits

Revision as of 00:43, 3 February 2008

Revision as of 01:59, 13 January 2008

Revision as of 00:10, 12 January 2008

The same edits have also been performed by IP

Revision as of 03:10, 1 February 2008 by 124.180.162.217

PresterJohn had been blocked for 1 month starting 09:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC) by Save_Us_229 according to page Talk to the Hand. The first of the misrepresentation of sources began 12 January 2008.

SmithBlue (talk) 02:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * See here for relevant talkpage discussion Prester John -(Talk to the Hand) 08:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Discussion continues on this topic. However, given that there are multiple sources for Hicks' training with al-Qaeda, SmithBlue's fundamental dependence on the use by a newspaper of the word "alleged" seems a wee bit precious, and I wonder if this ANI report is aimed at resolving an edit dispute by nobbling those with opposing views. --Pete (talk) 02:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

See my reply to this content dispute at the David Hicks talkpage. Prester John -(Talk to the Hand) 02:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * see also: Talk:David_Hicks/Archive2 cygnis insignis 03:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No dispute that "Hicks trained with AlQ" from me and I was pleased to see PresterJohn's recent removal of many POV headers and phrases from the article. This issue is more fundamental to editing an encyclopedia. Accuracy of representation of sources is essential to WP. Without it? ... what do we have? SmithBlue (talk) 03:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

HELP
The user styrofoam1994 keeps on deleting my supporting evidence from the sockpuppetry case that he filed against me even though he did it before and it was dismissed. Please help me as soo as you can. Thanks-- <font color="Blue" face="Verdana">Durza <font color="green" face="Verdana">Twink TALK 02:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * For convenience, here's a link to the page I think is meant: Suspected sock puppets/Durzatwink --Coppertwig (talk) 03:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No big deal. Just fill out a 3RR report.  One or both of you ought to get blocked.  Maybe they won't block you because you were just restoring evidence that had been deleted -- maybe that could count as reverting vandalism?  There were definintely more than 3 reverts, anyway. --Coppertwig (talk) 03:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I posted a warning at User talk:Styrofoam1994, focussing mainly on 3RR, though really I suppose deleting evidence is worse. --Coppertwig (talk) 03:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * seems to have stopped reverting. I think this thread can be considered resolved. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:56, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The rest of the story is on WP:AN Agathoclea (talk) 14:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

82.45.166.24
Please block 82.45.166.24, because he has vandalize pages such as List of programmes broadcast by Boomerang UK & Ireland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hmr (talk • contribs) 11:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Also and Block 65.78.194.114 please, because he has vandalize List of programmes broadcast by Boomerang UK & Ireland as well, Thanks. HMR 11:57, 03 Feburary 2008 (UTC)


 * You need to take these to WP:AIV. Ros0709 (talk) 12:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. HMR 14:30, 03 Feburary 2008 (UTC)

Barry Wellman
The page Barry Wellman has a potential conflict of interest that is being covered up. The primary editor that has put most of the promotional language on the page is User:Bellagio99. After what appears to have been an incident where he continually defends edits that try to make the page more objective, it seems to have a new defender in User:Anthon.Eff that is quickly reverting the addition of a WP:COI2 template tag and he waits until a few minutes after 24 hours to revert edits to avoid a 3rr. It seems that the two editors are in cahoots to defend a rather self-interested self-promotional page that reads more like a resume than an encyclopedia entry. Please take a look at both editors and the page in question to help determine what is going on. Are there 2 accounts for the same person perhaps? Or are they just helping each other out to maintain self-interested and self-promotional language? 64.171.57.46 (talk) 15:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm seeing a lot of discussion via edit summary. Has anyone tried talking in the wikispaces dedicated for such interaction? LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

User:58.177.113.21
This users history is providing Chinese translations of names in Hong Kong related articles and nothing much else. Basically doing good work (but maybe a little too much and cluttered for my taste). However, he has just gone to work on a chemistry article, here's his/her first diff on it. This is just weird, surely we don't want Chinese translations of every chemical name in Wikipedia? But as I don't know any specific policy he is violating, I have not reverted him. Also, I would not want to scare away someone with a valuable skill to us. Can somebody please advise?  Sp in ni ng  Spark  16:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * True, our practice per MOS is to a non-english language term only when relevant to the actual subject, not for terms like "anticholinesterase inhibitor" DGG (talk) 17:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Rollback and a polite note on the users talk page would be appropriate? Oh no, have to do it the hard way, rollback for clear vandalism only.  Sp in ni  ng  Spark  17:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Gwernol
Noting to see here. Spartaz Humbug! 17:28, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Gwernol blocked me for adding a block quote to an article ( See: [] and [] ), then suggested an edit I'm suggesting would be considered vandalism( See: [] and[] and[] ). Chuck Marean 17:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * What is the point of this forum-shopping? The matter is currently the subject of an arbitration request, Requests for arbitration, in the course of which all three arbitrators that have commented so far have endorsed the block. I see no need for administrator action here, except possibly another block of Chuck Marean if this wasting of community time continues. Sandstein (talk) 17:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

King of Mann
Please would you semi protect. I suspect puppetmaster User:Kingofmann is back.CarbonLifeForm (talk) 18:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I can't see any recent vandalism worth protecting the page against. For future reference, such requests usually belong on WP:RPP. Sandstein (talk) 18:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Just a reference if missed, it looks like he made and removed this edit here. Lawrence §  t / e  19:26, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Kingofmann self-identifies in that edit. We need to relink the old ArbCom here showing that he was voluntarily leaving the project, for future reference.  I do not cherish rerunning the whole thing from scratch.Wjhonson (talk) 05:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Here it is (cf Kingofmann ArbCom case dismissed). It was dismissed because, in part, he was leaving the project.  If he's back, then it may need to be reopened.Wjhonson (talk) 05:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Can someone review this decision please?
User:HanzoHattori just has been blocked indefinitely: . Of course his incivility is obvious, but I think such harsh decision would require a community discussion or ArbCom ruling. I know him as a good, reasonable and highly productive editor (~28,000 edits) who was always willing to discuss any disagreements with me.Biophys (talk) 04:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I endorse this block. The incivility is unacceptable.  Note that the block is indefinite rather than infinite.  If he wants to return and edit without making personal attacks, he can be unblocked.   Nakon  04:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

This User has been blocked 12 times. Indefinite doesn't mean infinite, if they'll agree to quit making the incivil edits, they might be unblocked. <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix talk  04:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I blocked because they obviously didn't get the message from increasing blocks, I highly doubt that they'd reform. Keilana | Parlez ici 04:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, for practical blocking purposes, indefinite and infinite mean the same thing in the block entry. As for HH, being highly productive does not give one the right to be uncivil. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 04:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I certainly agree with that. Being highly productive does not give one the right to be uncivil. To tell the truth, another user just came to my talk page and blamed me of bad faith and "manipulations" . I tried to explain him about WP:CIV and delete his uncivil comments, but he reverted me three time at my talk page to blame me of "lie" without any proof... With regard to Hanzo, I can only hope that he will rethink his behavior and ask for unblock.Biophys (talk) 05:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I must also endorse this block, this editor has a long history of incivility, edit warring and tendentious editing. User has ignored a long list of warnings, recommendations and blocks.  Dreadstar  †  06:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Due to the continued incivility on his talk page, I have protected it. Dreadstar  †  06:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Ban proposed
HH's behavior has gone way beyond tolerable. I propose a formal ban. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 11:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree, the community has shown an incredible level of tolerance towards his lack of civility and, which is an almost bigger problem, tendentious editing.--Aldux (talk) 15:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Having read just a few of HH's comments, I think a ban is in order. 28,000 edits is no excuse to throw civility out the window. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 19:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I have to endorse as well. Wikipedia is not therapy, period. GlassCobra 19:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I also endorse this ban. Long-term, ongoing problems with this editor.  Dreadstar  †  20:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I encountered this editor a while ago and found their poor demeanor egregious. Jehochman Talk 20:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It seems he is gone forever. Let's save our time. If he asks to lift his block (which I strongly doubt), then such discussion would be meaningful.Biophys (talk) 20:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This uncivil message cited by Dreadstar was addressed to me and in reply to my message.  May I ask you please not to impose a community ban on him, since that is partly my fault? I should not ask him and should not post this review request here at the first place. Besides, that would be an excessive and unnecessary punishment for someone who already has serious problems.Biophys (talk) 21:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I bet his "departure" is only temporary. He's had plenty of chances to learn to behave and only gets worse. Wiki is neither therapy nor a counseling center. It all boils down to that the rest of us shouldn't have to put up with this stuff. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 22:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I think we've been very patient with him for a long time. If he can't learn to be polite, then there's no place for him on Wikipedia. Rudie M. (talk) 22:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * At the end of the day, Wikipedia is a project to create an encyclopedia through collaboration by its editors. If an editor's actions are disrupting that objective, the wider interests of the project have to take precedence. That applies to repeated incivility just as much as it does to more obvious forms of disruption such as vandalism. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There is nothing to dispute here. Hanzo was able to work productively and collaboratively with me and other users who gave him these barnstars . He worked a lot and edited in a good faith. Unfortunately, he lost his temper many times. I saw the problem growing and tried to mediate his conflicts on several occasions but missed this one. I wish I could help...Biophys (talk) 00:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

User:SqueakBox/right to vanish and User:SqueakBox/gone
Can we get a consensus together to delete these pages? It's the history of SqueakBox's userspace, he doesn't want them there, he said he was excercising his right to vanish, but it's clear he just wants to remove the userpage history. He's had a death threat because of the history in November and he is more than entitled to get rid of the history per WP:SPEEDY. has decided to restore the pages, I've attempted to discuss it with him, but he won't redelete, hence why I'm bringing it here for further review.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  04:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * We were still discussing this. &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Son of the Defender  04:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No we weren't, you refused to redelete it, even given it's quite clearly a U1 deletion, I also see no attempt to discuss this with the deleting admin.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  04:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh really I didn't? So while I was attempting to figure all of this out, you filed an AN/I complaint prematurely, without finishing discussing it with me first? As for the deleting admin, did you look at Squeakbox's talk page? The deleting admin is quite confused by Squeakbox's actions, saying "I deleted two pages you tagged for deletion. I am confused that you seem to have recreated your user page. You can ask for your user page (not talk) to be deleted at any time, without moving it. But "right to vanish" only applies if you actually vanish, and recreating your user page seems to contradict that. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)" &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Son of the Defender  04:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Per WP:USER he cannot have it speedy deleted under U1 if he has significant conduct issues, which he does. That's the "admin reason to keep" clause in the U1 speedy. WP:USER is very clear about that: He MUST submit it to MfD if he wants it deleted. For the record, SqueakBox's conduct issues were that he had a bad night editing, blanked all his pages and called Wikipedia a hate site, and said he didn't want any more part of it. Fine, he has a right to do that. He invoked right to vanish. Fine, he has a right to do that. But as soon as the page was deleted, he came right back, saying that all along he didn't intend to vanish, that he only wanted to have the edit history deleted. So, he intentionally lied to have his user page deleted. That's no bueno, and that's significant conduct issue that I'm contesting the speedy deletion, as WP:USER explicitly allows me to do, and explicitly says I should undo the deletion, and that Squeakbox must put the deletion up on MfD. &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Son of the Defender  04:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Significant conduct issues generally means the user is banned, Squeak is nothing of the sort, and his conduct issues are nothing compared to many users here. U1 overrides WP:USER just about every time - you have not yet stated a reason for your undeletion, and the reason why this is significant enough to override U1. Many users delete their userspace, and given there's been a death threat, I'm a little astounded you won't meet the request.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  04:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 21 block log entries, and an ArbCom parole with 5 violations is not significant user conduct issues? &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Son of the Defender  04:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There are people making death threats against me. Swatjester is helping them by providing information about me and my family. This has got to stop now. Thanks, SqueakBox —Preceding comment was added at 04:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the above comment is about, nor did I look to see who wrote it. But as for evidence of significant user conduct problems: SqueakBox's block log fills up my entire 15 inch screen. He is only a few months off of a 1 year personal attacks/civility parole which he was blocked 5 times for violating. For that reason alone, he cannot have his page deleted via U1. &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT Jester    Son of the Defender  04:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

BTW I've offered to individually delete the death threats. No response from him yet. And I don't take that accusation kindly. &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT Jester    Son of the Defender  04:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh look, he lied again, the death threats are not even on Wikipedia. Why isn't he blocked yet for disruption? &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT Jester    Son of the Defender  04:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's his userspace for god sake, let him delete it, like we would anybody else. WP:USER does not let you undelete a page with no discussion whatsoever, especially when you're going against the deletion criteria.Open your eyes, the death threats came because of his userpage, they didn't happen on wiki.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  04:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe you guys should just tone it down. This kind of tone is not helpful in this situation.  I don't see a serious problem in deleting his userpage, since his talk page will be preserved which contains all pertinent material relating to his blocks. --Haemo (talk) 04:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem was that it was an invalid speedy deletion in the first place, and that he's lied now twice to get the page deleted to cover his history. I'm about 15 seconds away from indefinite blocking him for disruptiveness to the project. Haemo there is no problem in him MFD'ing his user page, but he is expressly NOT allowed to speedy it per WP:USER precisely for reasons like this that he is trying to do. &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Son of the Defender  04:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the issue is that his user page contains(ed) information which could be used to personally identify him. Understandably, since he has received death threats due to his on-wiki actions, he would like this removed.  This shouldn't be a contentious request &mdash; perhaps he made a mistake in saying he wanted to "vanish".  Fair enough &mdash; I don't think it matters, or has any bearing on what we should do here. --Haemo (talk) 04:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Why isn't this U1? Any conduct issues are documented on his talk page, not his userpage. WP:USER is a guidline, WP:SPEEDY is policy, we really should be following that. I strongly suggest you don't block him indef.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  04:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Except he can't have his talk page deleted, and this is about his user page, not his talk page. &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Son of the Defender  04:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Whoops; fixed. That doesn't change the content of what I said.  I couldn't care less if this was a U1 or J8 or whatever; the issue is more basic than that, and it shouldn't matter what guidelines we cite. --Haemo (talk) 04:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If SqueakBox is actually leaving, then why not go ahead and let the pages be deleted? If he comes back, either with this name or with another name, then it can be undeleted.  <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix  talk  04:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * He's not leaving, he just wants his userpage deleting which meets U1.  Ry an P os tl et hw ai te  04:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Then what's the problem? --Haemo (talk) 04:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is it doesn't meet U1. He's not leaving, he's deleting his user page history to cover up his misdeeds over the past years. This is specifically one of the exceptions to U1: Significant user conduct issues. 14 blocks, an arbcom parole for a year, recent personal attacks, etc. that's the exception. &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT Jester    Son of the Defender  04:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Question, how does deleting his USERpage (not the talk page) hide his misdeeds? SirFozzie (talk) 04:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah; I don't see the issue here. The talk page comments are well-documented. --Haemo (talk) 04:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Your reason would be valid if only the user page was the locus of those misdeeds. The mere existence of sanctions does not preclude an invocation of CSD U1 on pages unrelated to said sanctions. — Kurykh  04:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is that he has a history of harrassing others. He called Wikipedia a "hate website" (in user page edit summary, hence deleting the page hides at least one personal attack/incivility/disruption/whatever-you-want-to-call-it). As has been noted, his block log takes up more than one page. He has engaged in personal attacks, harrassment, bad faith, and so much more, and much of that can be evidenced (could have been) or documented there. And the moment that Swat took a breath to evaluate the situation, Squeak demended he be de-admin-ed. It's a longstanding history of attacking and threatening anyone who dares to disagree blindly with Squeak. VigilancePrime (talk) 04:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * We're discussing his user page, you're discussing his behavior. We're not even talking about the same thing. The user page is independent of his behavior. — Kurykh  04:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it is not. His behavior is clearly demonstrated ON his user page. That's why he wants it gone. The two cannot be seperated. He made an attack on the whole of Wikipedia on his user page (edit summary). How is that not related to his (chronically disruptive) behavior? VigilancePrime (talk) 04:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * One edit summary, which is unrelated to any sanctions, is not a reason to deny his reasonable claim. --Haemo (talk) 05:04, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The fact that the user received death threats due to his user page is sufficient reason for deletion irregardless of whether the user has "significant user conduct issues." Since when did we start valuing transparency over human life? — Kurykh  05:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Allegedly recieved threats. There is no evidence to support that, that claim surfaced only after this brouhaha started, and he has explicitly refused to share that info with an admin. Pairadox (talk) 05:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Squeak claimed (apparently inaccurately) that he was vanishing. He may have misunderstood the right to vanish or he may have other motives for not accurately stating the reason to delete. Either way, he induced an admin to delete his userpage under a pretense that doesn't match reality. If he wants to vanish, then by all means, he should. But if he wants to stay, he shouldn't be able to wipe away part of his edit history considering his historic and ongoing conduct issues. I've tried three times to ask Squeak about this issue, all to no avail. In short, WP:VANISHing is fine, but it's not a pretense to get an unsuspecting admin to delete. Transparency is key to this project. It's the user's conduct in giving the deleting admin an inaccurate reason that raises a concern with me. If the deletion is for good cause, then why not say so to start with? It's the inaccuracy that is the locus of both the deletion and conduct issues. --SSBohio 04:56, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If he isn't trying to leave, why is he claiming right to vanish? <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix  talk  04:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Does anything happen to the block log if the user page is deleted while the user talk page is kept? R. Baley (talk) 04:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed with R. Baley. The block log speaks for itself. I see no reason why the user page SHOULD be kept if the person wants it deleted and suggest SwatJester step back, and have a Nice cup of tea and a sitdown and reign his temper in. SirFozzie (talk) 05:04, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The general rule is that userpages (as opposed to talkpages) may be deleted on the user's request. I know of no circumstance that would warrant an exception to this rule for an editor currently in good standing. Talkpages are a more complex matter, and sometimes we decline deletion where the user is not leaving the project permanently and there are significant contributions by other editors on that page. However, these rules should be enforced, however, with a view toward minimizing unnecessary disruption and avoiding creating a dispute about nothing in particular. In this case, we have an editor whose controversial history is reasonably well known, and reflected in his block log, so there can be no legitimate concern that the user is trying evade administrator scrutiny by these deletions (which in fact are causing more attention to be focused on him than ever). In light of the claim that the user is receiving death threats based on information that has been revealed on his userpage or talkpage, and out of a desire to avoid unnecessary disputation or disruption over a matter not of importance, I see no reason not to grant the deletion of all the relevant pages, without reference to any technicalities or norms that would otherwise apply. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This is what I've been saying; agree completely. --Haemo (talk) 05:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You said it yourself brad: Editor in good standing. He is not an editor in good standing. &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Son of the Defender  05:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see any current ArbCom cases. I don't see any current ArbCom Sanctions against him. So, I don't see your point. As things stand, he's an editor with a checkered past (to be kind), but right now, he's an editor in good standing. Once again, Swat, please take a step back. SirFozzie (talk) 05:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no reason to engage in edit-warring or wheel-warring to keep userpage content (or user talkpage content, for that matter) intact against the wishes of the relevant user, even in ordinary circumstances. Beyond that, in view of the allegation that death threats have been directed against the user, an emergency situation is presented. Common sense suggests that discussion concerning alleged death threats and similar problems should not take place on-wiki. These pages are not to be restored. Any further concerns about the matter should be presented privately to the Arbitration Committee. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec's) Agree with the deletion of the user page (assuming the block record is preserved) however, the talk page should be deleted and then restored with any offending/problematic edits redacted. Or in the alternative, problematic edits to the talk page can be oversighted.  But in general, the bulk of the talk page history should be kept, and the details of what to remove should be conducted privately.  It should be OK to delete the talk page immediately, and work out what to restore in a timely fashion.  R. Baley (talk) 05:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * To my comment above, I will add that I can see little reason to fight to keep userspace content which a contributor, rightly or wrongly, believes presents a danger to himself and his family. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Allegations that he's already misled us about once, coming hot on the heels of having just lied about invoking right to vanish. Right. Emergency situation. Got it. Glad to know that we lend tendentious editors with extensive block histories and known credibility issues every protection, including allowing ArbCom to sweep this under the rug, while we chastise an admin for following EXACTLY WHAT THE TEXT OF WP:USER SAYS. If that's where our priorities lie, I don't want to be a part of this. &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Son of the Defender  05:28, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think the fact that this user has a contentious history and a long block log is going to be forgotten if we delete some userpage content by request. If the request turns out to be ill-founded, that can be dealt with in due course. I do not, in the least, understand the level of importance that is being placed on this entire matter. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed we do. If he's a liar the full weight of process can of course be brought to bear. In the meantime please direct further hatemail to Arbcom. Cheers, Mackensen (talk) 05:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And a representative of the arbitration committee will post an on-wiki notification of the result of said discussions, including the veracity of any reasons for deletion? If that is a given, then fine. Carcharoth (talk) 05:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Swat, I can completely understand your point. From his history, he seems to have been a real pain, and I can certainly sympathize with your point. However, I don't see any point in not allowing him to delete his user page. I think his talk page should stand, or be deleted with the block history replaced. If he's going to change identities, it won't help us to leave his old info up on the old user page, so I'd err on the side of caution. If he's claiming death threats, let him vanish. I'm sure he'll pop up again and we'll deal with that when it happens. Snowfire51 (talk) 05:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * A side-effect here is that by requiring a long debate about whether to allow this deletion or not, the amount of administrator and community time devoted to dealing with an allegedly disruptive user is substantially increased. I don't see how that could be considered helpful from any perspective. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What is arbcom's role in this matter? To make clear my concern, I only worry that by having the page speedied under a pretense, edits which should be part of his history will disappear from scrutiny. Has an admin taken a look at the history of the deleted page to see if there are actual issues here, or just possible ones? If there are no problem edits in the deleted history, I have no problem with its staying deleted. --SSBohio 05:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no formal ArbCom case or anything of that nature. The reason I have referred this to the Arbitration Committee is that if someone has to post along the lines of "the personal information is in this revision and this one and this one, and the death threats are here and here," that type of information cannot and should not be posted on-wiki. The confidential Arbitration Committee mailing list is the customary repository for sensitive information of that nature. Therefore, while my first preference would be to allow the deletion to stand, and not expend any more time on this (see my comment above), in the event people insist on pursuing it further it should be done confidentally as indicated. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There's no reason not to delete a user page upon reaquest - doing so does not erase the block log. The talk page should at least be blanked, and any possibly harmful edits oversighted. SwatJester appears to be assuming bad faith which isn't helpful. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 05:43, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Will, it's a prima facie challenge to good faith to claim WP:VANISH if vanishing isn't his intention. The admin making the deletion was surprised when Squeak recreated the page.  SwatJester isn't making any unwarranted assumption that I can see. --SSBohio 05:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * SSB is right. Perhaps it was simply an accidental mis-wording (as had been noted elsewhere), but that Squeak refuses to answer a simple question about why he deleted the page and there is coniderable background and potential for information to be lost, the motives are paramount to this discussion. That said, I generally support userreq deletions of both userpages and user talkpages, but this is a possible exception. VigilancePrime (talk) 05:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The user page contains a lot of personally-identifying information. If a user wishes that to be deleted it is a priority. People often post such material, without at the time realising the possible consequences. As Will Beback observes, deletion of contributions does not affect the block log at all. Tyrenius (talk) 05:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm solely concerned that there may be edits or edit summaries deleted which bear on this user's ongoing conduct issues. If someone could take a look at that, I'd be happy.  No one should face off-Wiki risks from on-wiki editing.  --SSBohio 06:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * For the record, I just went to SB's talkpage. He moved it to a user subpage, which was then deleted. This effectively removes his entire talkpage history. Perhaps this is one of the problems SJ had with the deletion? I'm genuinely not certain, but it seems to be a problem to me. 71.54.57.168 (talk) 05:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * SqueakBox is a user in good standing, and if there's anything identifying in his user page history, the usual practice is to delete it. SlimVirgin  (talk) (contribs) 06:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Reposting of information (on hate websites no less) is a procedure used by some admins (Link in text) and supported wholly by SqueakBox. In a way, what goes around comes around. How's it feel now, Squeak? The point is, I can see the need to delete personal info (it shouldn't have been posted in the first place, and Squeak, as a 45-y/o man - something he points out at every opportunity while harrassing and impuning others - should know better), but the editing history - including the accusation that Wikipedia is a "hate site" - are of great import in describing Squeak's chronic, consistent disruptive behaviors.
 * Note: SqueakBox is hardly an editor in good standing...! VigilancePrime (talk) 06:04, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You are treading very close to a block for harassment. <small style="background:#fff;border:#008080 1px solid;color:#000;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap">east<big style="color:#090">. 718 at 06:17, February 3, 2008
 * You who? Me for pointing out the reasons? How am I harrassing for linking to an admin's edit? How am I harrassing for backing up an admin who is following WikiPolicy? How am I harrassing for contributing to the discussion? Or were you referring to someone else, cause it was ambiguous what or who you're talking about. Or if you were referring to SqueakBox, then I understand (and agree). VigilancePrime (talk) 06:35, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's clear you have a history with Squeakbox, so it's hard to take your recommendations at face value &mdash; even though you may feel you are unbiased in your assessment, comments like "How does it feel" and "What goes around, comes around" indicate that you have an axe to grind, and should probably recuse yourself. --Haemo (talk) 06:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I can see that. FWIW, he has a history with me more than the other way around... But you're probably right. I would refer to my additional comments below to point out that I support the admin in this and support total deletion if the pages are to be deleted. Generally, I don't see any reason not to delete user talk pages with the user talk pages when requested. I generally remain unbiased, even in areas where I'm invested, but I do see your point that I might have a particular POV in this from having been on the receiving end of Squeak's hostilities and attacks. Maybe that's why my thoughts are needed, but I'll recuse myself (mostly) I guess. I do think it's ironic, though, that he's claiming similar issues to ones he has supported in the past. You have to admit there's irony in that. VigilancePrime (talk) 06:56, 3 February 2008 (UTC) :-)

RTV, oversight, and talk history
I thought we didn't delete user talk pages, even under Right To Vanish, and only deleted/oversighted identifying information in them. My understanding was that eliminating user talk history, as seen here, made it so that non-admins had no ability to review an editor's public records and history for things like Dispute Resolution. All his old talk page archives are now lost in three files which are:


 * User talk:SqueakBox/right to vanish
 * User talk:SqueakBox/gone
 * User talk:SqueakBoxArchivehsitory

Is this user leaving and doing a RTV? If not, why not just Oversight the material in talk? I don't see the need to hide his entire talk history from the public. What is the need for that? It gives a user a false new start to people that don't know to look closer. If this is an actual RTV, where this user will need to disclose his new account if any to the Arbitration Committee given his disruptive history, do we delete talk pages in those cases? Lawrence §  t / e  06:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think there's a problem necessarily with deleting user talk pages. This is a special case, which is why it's here. I'd say all or nothing... if it is decided that the deletions are legit, then there's no reason not to delete user talk pages too. The issue is whether or not there is sufficient reason (meaning "evidence") to keep the user page. If so, keep all. If not, there's nothing wrong with deleting the talk pages too. VigilancePrime (talk) 06:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well the user page: who cares? People can delete them or ask for their deletion because of a death threat, an upset stomach, or for the hell of it. I'm just talking about the talk history, since it looks like an absolute mess and I've seen mention before that we don't delete those. If Squeak is gone, full RTV, and that page with his history of interactions is going to go, perhaps editing access for the account should go too. If he decides to come back later, the talk page then gets recreated with history. But the user page itself, who cares? How is this usually done? Lawrence  §  t / e  06:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Point of Information: SqueakBox is not gone. He said he was vanishing and half a day later started all this and article editing. It has a red herring look to it, or perhaps a change of mind, or perhaps an emotionally-distressed decision rescinded with a later clear head (who of us has never had something like that?). I don't have a problem with deleting the pages, user and user talk, per se, but there is some controversy as to whether it removes (and intentionally so?) evidence of some of his past bad acts on Wikipedia and to other Wikipedians. That's the only issue here. VigilancePrime (talk) 06:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no deleted history at any of those three pages. The history of SqueakBox's talk page is still available for non-admins, you just have to know where to look. <small style="background:#fff;border:#000 1px solid;color:#000;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap">east<big style="color:#090">. 718 at 06:59, February 3, 2008


 * "You just have to know where to look"?!? I'm sorry, but how exactly is that done? I've been around for a while, think I'm fairly conversant with how to find things with limited access, and I can't figure it out. Why are editors being made to jump through hoops to find the talk page history? Why is finding it being made so difficult? Pairadox (talk) 07:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The same way a number of other users have been stalked in the past by Wikipedia attackers. The broad overview of how it was done is on a few attack sites, but that doesn't mean we need to spread it around. John Nevard (talk) 09:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * How do we locate those redlinks above, which contain the edit history of his user talk page? They look like any other redlinks, and their effect is to obscure the talk page history.  Delete any personal identification that others have posted, but bring back the history to User talk:SqueakBox in the interest of transparency.  --SSBohio 14:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what the big problem is here - his talkpage was deleted in error, restore it and remove any revisions necessary. His userpage is a userpage, has no relation to any conduct issues, bears on the potential for death threats and should obviously be removed/stay removed. I understand some people don't like him, but the comments here are beyond the pale. <strong style="color:#fff;background:#000;border:1px solid #ccf">Avruch <strong style="color:#fff;background:#000;border:1px solid #ccf">talk 14:09, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I've supported SqueakBox more than once on other issues. I have one concern;  I believe it to be legitimate:  Are there any edits in the edit history of User:SqueakBox that should be kept for reasons of user conduct or content?  I don't see where they've been looked at WRT the issue I've raised.  For now, the history was deleted under a pretense and no one has established what was there before deletion and what might need to be kept for purposes of maintaining an accurate user history.  Edits to deleted pages not only disappear from those pages, but from the user's contribution history, as well.  Avruch, if you look at the history and say "there's nothing there for you to be concerned about," I'm prepared to endorse the deletion.  If no admin wants to check, then undelete the page and I'll look for myself.  --SSBohio 14:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Per NYB's above comment, the pages are not to be restored. Questions should be directed to the Arbitration Committee, via arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org. <strong style="color:#fff;background:#000;border:1px solid #ccf">Avruch <strong style="color:#fff;background:#000;border:1px solid #ccf">talk 15:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no deleted history in User talk:SqueakBox/right to vanish. My impression is that SqueakBox moved his user page and accidentally move the talk page at the same time. Then he moved the talk page back, and I deleted the redirect. I apologize for the bad deletion summaries; there was a bug in the deletion reason script at the time. At the moment, the talk page history is at User talk:SqueakBox/Archivehistory. My impression is that SqueakBox was simply confused about how to archive the talk history, since most of the deletions are for redirects. See my discussion with SqueakBox on the archived talk page. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 15:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

discussion bottom

I can't for my life imagine that this issue is actually resolved. Inconvenient? Yes. Resolved? No. As I see it, the three issues here are: Now, if someone wants to revert my doing this, then so be it. To my mind, calling this a resolved issue beggars belief, but I'll accept the community's consensus otherwise. We at least have to know that there is personally identifying information at stake before invoking ArbCom. No one has checked, or if they have, no one has stated that such information was there. There has been no indication that ArbCom has taken up this issue. The talkpage issue is still open, as well. Please, do something other than disappearing the issue. --SSBohio 16:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Squeak had his userpage deleted under a false pretense, and there's been nothing presented to verify that his second pretense is more valid than his first. To my recollection, there was no personally identifying information requiring deletion on his userpage, and no one has shown differently or even asserted same.
 * 2) Squeak has had a checkered history involving making impassioned comments, both on pages and in edit summaries. Despite my request, no one can assure me that the history deleted didn't contain problematic edits such as those.
 * 3) Squeak's user talk page history is now obscured in a subpage, which is explained as his being confused about how to archive. He's been archiving his talkpage for years without any confusion.  The history should be back at User Talk:SqueakBox in the interest of transparency.

Ultimate Issue

 * I have been thinking about this over the night. Really, I came to his one conclusion: This is only an issue because he asserted a Right to Vanish while he had absolutely no intention of actually vanishing. But, if he had simply said db-userreq with "rationale=no longer wish to have a user page, please delete", this would not be an issue as much as it is. Yes, there would still be the questions of motives, and there'd be the issue of his poor behavior in some edits and edit summaries, but there wouldn't be the issue of trying to "trick" admins into deleting the page.
 * That said, I really don't have a problem with the deletion. I don't think anyone else should either. So SqueakBox wants to delete his user page. If he wants to delete his user talk page, that's fine too. Whether this is to protect against alleged death threats or because he's trying to hide his bahaviors is actually pretty irrelevant. Let him delete his own pages. Just as I feel a user should have virtually unlimited discretion in creating and maintaining userspace pages (something SqueakBox has, of late, gone after in attacks like the great crusades), one should have virtually unlimited discretion in deleting their own userspace content.
 * TO BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, SWATjester did exactly what he should have done, followed policy to the letter, and was illegitimately attacked and harrassed for it. Here we (finally) have an admin who goes to great lengths to do the right thing and he is vilified for it. That's the real tragedy here. That is the real bastardization of justice. That an admin can be impuned for doing his job and doing it extremely well is a problem that we all should be much more concerned about. EVERYONE here should go to his talk page and leave him a note saying that he was right, he is valued/appreciated, and requesting that he stay at Wikipedia. Those who attacked him through this discussion should also note an apology for vilifying him.
 * Let the pages stay deleted.
 * Thank SWATjester for his service and careful oversight.
 * Live and Let Live.
 * There's still plenty of fodder for an anti-SqueakBox campaign if anyone ever wishes to mount one... he has made it so very easy through his name-calling, attacks, and harrassment. These couple pages are hardly missed in that. Let the dead rest, and the past remain the past, eh? VigilancePrime (talk) 16:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What is past is prologue & those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Squeak has pressed for deletion before with the effect of removing troubling elements of his own history.  This has the hallmarks of being more of the same.  It's that simple. --SSBohio 17:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * While I don't want SWATJester to leave (we need all the good editors we can get!), no he was not right on his interpretation of WP:USER, and should not take that he was right from this discussion. That point has been made clear by several arbitrators, and the consensus of this discussion. As for an apology, that depends on if he will apologize for being strident, dismissive and repetitive in his comments. And let me also say that I'm not amused about this thread continuing after it was made clear that further discussion of this issue should be made to ArbCom, privately. SirFozzie (talk) 17:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Even granting that something should go to ArbCom, that's no requirement that it must. Do you assert that this is a resolved issue, as the closing editor did?  I honestly can't see that anything's been resolved, or that anything is required to go to ArbCom.  If either is true, that's fine, but simple assertions are no way to establish consensus. --SSBohio 17:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Not only do I assert, but NewYorkBrad, an Arbitrator, asserts as well. SirFozzie (talk) 17:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "an emergency situation is presented" (from your link)? That's ridiculous. If these threats have been longstanding as Squeak has alleged, what makes it suddenly an emergency situation? Because he has finally decided to delete content? No, that is an extreme reaction. ArbCom is, as many are becoming concerned, for sweeping things Wikipedia doesn't want public under the rug. That's what some are trying to do with this discussion. Now, it is a simple matter of reading policy that SWAT was right. If "we" don't like that, perhaps we should rewrite the policy. The pages might as well stay deleted, per my lengthy comments (in support of Squeak) above. SSB is correct about past and future behavior, but even without the user pages and user talk pages (and other article pages he has managed to delete), there's still plenty of SPOV and SqueakAttacks to be documented if ever there is a need. I agree that this should be dropped. But dropped here, not in the ArbCom under-the-rug committee. VigilancePrime (talk) 18:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

And there is NO WAY an involved party should be closing this issue... come on, that's a highly dubious closure, and this clearly is not resolved.
 * I was just restoring the LAST Archiving that was promptly ignored. ArbCom has spoken, ignore it at your own risk. SirFozzie (talk) 18:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a threat. Maybe it isn't. Sounds like it though.
 * As you have pointed out, Fozzie, one ArbCom member said it should go there. But there has been nothing to say that it must or that it has. Has it? And if so, where can a peasant, second-class Wikipedian watch for results of such an ArbCom? VigilancePrime (talk) 18:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not a threat. It's attempting to give you warning, VP. And cut it out with the, "Help, help, I'm being oppressed, come see the violence inherent in the sysadmin" (to mangle Monty Python). It ill behooves you. With the privacy issues claimed by SqueakBox, ArbCom is the one to handle it. A public kicking is NOT in WP's best interests. If you have questions, email NewYorkBrad privately, or the full ArbCom mailing list. SirFozzie (talk) 18:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Huh? Where's my claim of oppression or violence in admins? I don't even understand what you're talking about, unless it's just unfounded accusations (personal attacks?) intended to cloud the issue. As it stands now, there are no privacy issues as the privacy-issue pages are deleted. Maybe if you read my earlier comments endorsing the deletion you'd understand. I don't get why you're so into vilifying me now. I'm agreeing with you (in the original question). VigilancePrime (talk) 18:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

HEY. Sorry to shout. Any chance we could all stop discussing this and come back to it tomorrow when we've all had a good night's sleep and we might not over-run the page? Just a thought. It's unlikely we will resolve this right now, and it might save us all a bit of, you know, feeling a bit wrought or fractured. Hiding T 18:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I did sleep on it. VigilancePrime (talk) 18:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC) :-)
 * Hiding, that's the best idea I've heard today. I intend to bow out of this discussion until tomorrow.  Perhaps then I won't have to remind people that should and must are two different words with distinct meanings.  --SSBohio 18:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've put in a request to have things clarified for those who are arguing with this on NewYorkBrad's talk page. Hopefully THAT will settle things once and for all. Instead of Reductio ad absurdum, perhaps this should have been tried a while back, rather than undoing two archivals? (and yes, I am guilty with that too until now) SirFozzie (talk) 19:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I went to Brad's talkpage after reading your comment, and, to clarify your clarification, what you're asking is that he change materially what he wrote. He already indicated what he thought should happen.  If he changes his stated position to support yours, it would be after the fact.  His words were plain, and his abilities as a wordsmith are well-regarded.  --SSBohio 21:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Bill edmond
User:Bill edmond recently deleted a large portion of the article Igbo people with the somewhat odd summary "For the sake of posterity in keeping the RULES of WIKIPEDIA, let this article be edited, but not be deleted." Judging by his talk page, he has been admonished in the past, and even blocked for a month, for disruptive edits to this article. I haven't really been tracking this, and I don't have time to look into it, so I'm not the one following up on this possibly complicated matter, but I suspect that another long block is in order. - Jmabel | Talk 06:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I see no response here. Is someone taking this on? - Jmabel | Talk 17:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I find it near impossible to get through to Bill edmond (having dealt with both this account and past ones). He's a good faith user, but he just doesn't seem to want to cooperate with other editors of Nigeria-related articles. Your assessment here is correct, too; that article is impossible to keep in good condition. Picaroon (t) 22:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Suicide note update
Don't Worry, It is extremely unlikely that this was a genuine suicide note:

"i am going to kill myself. i have to i am nothing anymore and i wish i was never fucking born. I have a shitload of pills and it will be ok soon. Tell Shonna I Love Her And that I'm Sorry."

The following observations lead me to conclude that this is a hoax:


 * "I have a shitload of pills", suicide notes almost never contain references to the intended life-ending method.
 * Suicide notes are almost always written to a specific person.
 * This message does not contain a rationalization, a reason why this person feels it is ok to end their life.
 * The note is too short. (The reason why someone writes a suicide note is to basically talk themselves into it. Sometimes a suicide note can can reach 5-10 pages long)
 * Contrary to popular belief, suicide notes are usually written with a calm, purposeful hand. The disparity between the style of writing at the beginning and at the end is frankly not believable.


 * Compare this: "i have to i am nothing anymore" with this: "Tell Shonna I Love Her", the sudden capitalization of "I" does not fit. Also, the writing style is more likely get worse as the person writes, than to get better.


 * The final nail in the coffin, pardon the expression, is this: "I'm", first of all, this is too casual in context with the rest of the sentence. And second of all, contractions are a sign that the person is lying. It is one of the only signs of lying in written prose.

'''However, This does not discount the possibility that this person may be someone on the brink. These observations would likely be seen in someone who is not yet ready to take their life, which means that we may be able to do some good here'''

Hope this helps. --<font color="10172F">BE <font color="04228E">TA  06:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What is this referencing?— Ryūlóng ( 竜龍 ) 07:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, First ANI thread --<font color="10172F">BE <font color="04228E">TA  07:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

'' The above "observations" by BETA is NOT helpful, and should be struck out, not just closed. Not even a professional would say such a thing as BETA has done here. ←<font color="Red">Gee ♥<font color="Green">Alice  10:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

People are free to advocate a policy that would force us to feature these notices prominently, coordinate efforts, etc., or, push for the opposite. But, in the meantime, disrupting day-to-day administrative operations, as BETA did upon creating this 'non-update' analysis of the note, which goes explicitly against my asking for no further comments and archiving the first thread, needs to be actively avoided. Thanks. El_C 23:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Mass date format changes
Looking at diffs such as Adolf Hitler and Phil Collins, it is clear that User:Wtimrock‎ has mass changed date formats in the article from International Dating format to American Dating format, against the guidelines of the Manual of Style. I've asked him to change them back, but I can't force him to do this, and it's a lot of work to go through and change each date individually. --Pete (talk) 08:02, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * They are interchangeable. 14 January, 2008 is the same as January 14, 2008 per DATE. While you are technically correct, given that both are not native to America, it's really no big deal, and it would really be a waste of time to go through and revert all of the edits when the date format works the same.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 08:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Most of our users are readers, without accounts or date preferences. Perhaps you should log out and see it as an average user would. Obviously the two formats are not then interchangeable. --Pete (talk) 08:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you want a cookie? 72.193.12.47 (talk) 09:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Logged out and the dates were exactly the same. Obviously the two formats are interchangeable. You are merely making a mountain out of a molehill.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 01:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

He shouldn't do it. It may well be annoying for editors who chose the other style. There is no reason to make the changes. Tyrenius (talk) 09:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it's annoying. Phil Collins is, at least, British (and is as influential as John, George, Ringo, Paul, The Who, Floyd, etc), so the date format should remain British. Will (talk) 10:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The latter part of your argument is severely compromised by comparing a drummer who got lucky when the lead singer/songwriter left, to the subsequently named bands. In reverse order those bands invented or were the leaders of British psychedelia, hard/art rock, and... British post war musical everything. Phil Collins possibly invented British post divorce melancholy pop rock... ooh, looky - red link. He is a better actor than the rest of the above combined, though. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC) ps. I agree with you about the date thing.

Well, thanks, guys. In the old days, there'd be an ArbCom case when editors changed BC into BCE or something similar, but all I get is murmurs and the usual misunderstanding about date prefs. Anyone gonna give the editor a boot in the balls? Looks like he's a problem, from the number of warnings on his talk page. --Pete (talk) 00:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Blue eyes gold dragon
I became aware of this user because of this Wikiquette alert. What I have seen is worse than what was reported there:      . Perhaps someone can have a look at this until their adopter User:JetLover is online again? --Hans Adler (talk) 10:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC) Blocked 72h. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 19:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Pure Reason Revolution
This is a complicated case about the article for the band Pure Reason Revolution. User Justpassinby has only ever edited this and related articles. His/her posts generally have a negative attitude towards the band and its members, but, earlier on, edits made tended to be more reasonable and followed policy. More recently, Justpassinby's edits have been unreasonable; various editors considered these edits to be vandalism and left warnings. These were ignored and this led to Justpassinby being blocked. Since then, there were a sequence of vandalising edits by 78.105.130.169 (the first ever edits from this IP address): these largely repeated Justpassinby's edits and I presume are Justpassinby avoiding his/her block. Yesterday, was the first and only edit by user Joncourtney. Jon Courtney is a member of Pure Reason Revolution. However, the edit made by the user Joncourtney was insulting towards Jon Courtney and the band and was in a similar style to edits by Justpassinby and 78.105.130.169, so I am concerned that the Joncourtney account is a sock-puppet and raises further issues of impersonation. There have been two further edits by 78.105.130.169 since too. I would like to suggest semi-protection for the page and further administration action against Justpassinby and the Joncourtney account. Bondegezou (talk) 13:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think a condensed version of the above should be submitted to WP:SSP. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I can vouch for his accounting of the events, I just took a look. The vandalism reads like it's being done by either a former member of the band, or that former member's supporter. SSP might be able to give it a good block, but maybe it should be semi'd until they get to it. ThuranX (talk) 16:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I've reported the case to WP:SSP as Suspected sock puppets/Justpassinby. Bondegezou (talk) 23:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Whitemartian
Keeps creating socks (Whitemartian3.0, Whitemartian2.0), etc., for pure vandalism. I think there's history between him and User:David A - can an IP block stop him? gb (t, c) 15:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * To try and get an IP block for him, unless you can give a provable IP address for this vandal, you need to request at WP:RCU. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the random pornographic image added to this section by User:Juno24631 and given that user a warning. --Masamage ♫ 20:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Personal attack.
Here an editor came at me with a level of vitriol far above what was called for. This is not the first time Mactographer has stirred up trouble related to the Mike Huckabee article. Since this comment reflects his extreme POV as well as a cheap shot, I'm asking for a block for him to cool off and remember taht we're all here to improve the articles, not to attack each other, or at least a warning from an admin. ThuranX (talk) 16:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe I'm misreading the diff, but I don't see a "level of vitriol far above what was called for". Also, WP:BLOCK specifically mentions cool off blocks as something that shouldn't be done. - <font color="#0000cd">auburn <font color="#EF6521">pilot  talk  16:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've seen worse. Perhaps a level one warning. DGG (talk) 17:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Not even a level-one warning. If there's anything that stands out in the diff, it's ThuranX's remarks about Huckabee. --  tariq abjotu  21:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. Huckabee's actually spoken about his ability to mis-speak, and I made a joke about that. The return was an insult both about Clinton, which was thoroughly out of place, and at me for being ignorant. The article in question was later edited to reflect that if 'acting' governors are not counted (although they are sworn in) it's 44, if they are counted as sworn in governors, it's 54. Whether or not Huckabee knew this is beyond our ability to source. That I made a joke to an editor I'd previously edited with,  without this level of acrimony, and got that insult in return is absurd. OF course, it might just be that since he's on the of the Huck'sArmy editors I've brought up for CoI multiple times, he's decided to get proactive and blatant about his attitudes. ThuranX (talk) 22:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

That diff doesn't seem all that bad to me, barely warnable. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 22:35, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the vindication of the obvious. If ThuranX hadn't provoked the incident in question with his rude and uncalled for attacks on Governor Huckabee, I wouldn't have had the slightest reason to reply in kind.  And, in fact, he was ignorant in the classic sense of the word since he was unaware of the correct numbering system ... of which the Governor himself was fully aware. It seems to me if someone doesn't want to get into a verbal sparing match, he shouldn't throw the first punch and then come running to the admins complaining about it. --Mactographer (talk) 05:19, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok, so I admit it. mactographer has no sense of humor at all. He's too vociferously defending Huckabee on the article and everywhere else to see a JOKE. Next time, I won't make jokes with a member of Huck'sArmy.com, I'll just report the COI and off-wiki canvassing again. It was a clear joke, one that came with an explanation. He's now picking a bigger fight about this, and it's clear he's not about to stop. This is ridiculous. HucksArmy was upset months ago when I presented their COI to bot AN/I and the BLP boards here, and now he thinks he's got a chance to get me in trouble. His continuing personal attacks and misrepresentations are getting tiresome. I'm requesting he be block to prevent further attacks. ThuranX (talk) 05:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Forgery & misapplication of WP:RPA by User:Gustav von Humpelschmumpel
GvH feels i violated WP:NPA by describing a series of his article-talk edits as an "intermittant rant". I'll find a wording that should ameliorate that before i go offline in the next half hour or less. But in the meantime, he has cited WP:RPA in justifying a far more aggressive editing of the talk page than i remember ever seeing, even when Remove personal attacks was a frequently cited essay instead of a Rdr. (He excised half of one contrib including its sig, and the whole of an apology that was a separate contrib, leaving the appearance that the whole was a single contrib. I trust no one will suggest i am overly prissy in holding that every modification of another editor's signed contribution must
 * be signed by the modifier,
 * maintain clarity about where removals have been done, and what that remains is original and what modified

to avoid condemnation as forgery.) I am about to rv all his removals on that talk page of my writing, with edits of my own wording to address his sensitivites, but in light of his responses, in summaries and on my tk (lk'd above) to my expressed concerns anticipate the possibility of another reversion by him. In that event i will block him for 8 hours and revert, before leaving to attend to an overdue commitment lasting something like 6 hours, and hope for the attention of another admin, to counsel restraint by him (in place of his self-righteous advocacy of restraint by me) and remove the block.  --Jerzy•t 19:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I am usually weary of comments being removed. But your comments are too personal and inflammatory, needlessly so. Up to and including the title you chose for this notice, with the first word being "forgery." Can I press on you to tone down the rhetoric and, generally, limit your interactions with him to impersonal, dispassionate, matter-of-fact communication? Thanks. El_C 23:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for needed feedback, with which i could use some less abstract assistance if you are willing. (I fear your efforts will be wasted on me if they stop here.)
 * I need more help from you or someone.
 * In particular, it is all very well for me to intend to apply what may be learned from this, but in the meantime there is the present situation to be dealt with.
 * And, excuse me, but i cited forgery first bcz that is the most objective and least defensible offense; if it seems inflammatory, it is IMO simply bcz forgery of talk contributions
 * is a threat to WP in the same way and degree that forgery in society is a threat to the reliability of contracts and other important documents, and
 * is so obviously intolerable that there is no Rdr named forgery to direct us to the neologism that might have developed for it, if there had ever been a defense made of forgery in certain circumstances (as there was a essay page Remove personal attacks, even tho it was so problematic that the page is now vigorously deprecated), and the term that sounds like a criminal act does quite well, thank you, except for those who want exceptions made for them to forge contribs.
 * (Of course, that editor's conception of RPA does not even live up to the now suppressed examples in the old essay, which presumably were too encouraging of misuse to survive the, uh, refactoring.)
 * I would like to be the first to say that the editor who is the victim of forgery is not an ideal enforcer of the no-brainer prohibition of forgery. The proper response to that fact is not to try to get me tie to my own hands, but to intervene, now, to solve the forgery problem first, ameliorating the personality and passion issues, instead of exhorting me to to the Herculean task of rising above them. This is personal bcz am the immediate victim, but it is worthy of a passionate attitude for far better reasons than its being personal, and it is not matter-of-fact.
 * Since i first wrote here (but before receiving ElC's counsel), i moderated my terminology (without labeling as a PA what IMO was not), and solicited feedback on whether my use of "utterly unfounded insinuation" was something he would like ameliorated. GvH simply said on my talk page
 * Right, now you seem to be deliberately drawing attention to the personal attack that you made in the first place so I am just going to revert you again. Regards
 * and reverted, with summary "rv harrassment". I have seen no hint that he is prepared to seek what he wants without forgery, and every reason to think that he simply wants a veto power on mentions of him. The effort to remove my comments, without attempting negotiation of a rewording, began some 25 hrs ago, under the cryptic summmary "rv to me, i made that comment and it is directly related to the thread". (I took that to be a proprietary statement that he was free to delete, in the refactor i began, a hdg he originally created, and which i had until then assumed we both wanted to preserve -- Hey, no biggie.) No one else has shown the least concern about the forgery aspect, and the time will soon arise when i do my best to take the counsel of User:El C (who hasn't edited in about the last 4 hours) as i enforce the crucial (if de facto) prohibition of forgery of signed contribs. --Jerzy•t 04:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

French village stubs
Consensus was that this is not a problem. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Blofeld of SPECTRE is creating unrefernced stubs on French villages at the rate of approximately 5 per minute. I am discussing if these articles are useful, or if they should be deleted on the user's talk page, but more input would be appreciated. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Infoboxes will be added once the articles are set up. Info can be transalted from the official websites on each of the at a later date. These can soon by developed into articles like Ottrott and eventually into full length articles. Other wikipedias have had these articles for at least four years and we are lagging behind. Use your head. This is wiki. Articles won't remain "useless stubs" forever. They are here to build up into full articles. This is the most efficient way to get them up and running of which I see precious few other people bothering. The links to other wikipedias are there which show that they are valid. <font style="color:#fef;background:black;">♦ Sir Blofeld ♦      <font size="-4"><font color="Black">$1,000,000? 20:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Examples include Saint-Félix-de-Bourdeilles, Saint-Étienne-de-Puycorbier, Sainte-Sabine-Born etc... Tim Vickers (talk) 20:43, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, we do have a precedent of sorts with the US and Canadian place articles... — Kurykh  20:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * They most defintely should not be deleted. Creation of articles about all real places which we do not yet have articles for, should be encouraged, not discouraged.  <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix  talk  20:47, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd be perfectly happy if they included something like a link to a French government website, or even an atlas, but creating completely unreferenced one-line stubs? Tim Vickers (talk) 20:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Note to Tim. Look if anybody on this website knows how to build an encyclopedia it is me. I haven't put 109,000 edits into this and not learned a thing or two about what wikipedia is. Info boxes can be added within seconds from french wikipedia as above. This is the quickest way to get articles which were on the other wikipedias five years onto here. We are laggin behind. If more people helped me develop them rather than sitting around moaning how bleak they are it would take off in no time. Please think about the future of wikipedia rather than dwelling on how it is this second. I really dislike being disrupted like this <font style="color:#fef;background:black;">♦ Sir Blofeld ♦     <font size="-4"><font color="Black">$1,000,000? 20:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you Blofeld for adding the infoboxes to the stubs I linked to, they look pretty good now. If you could do this with the other stubs and add something like an external link, that would solve the problem entirely. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Blofeld isn't the only editor creating French commune stubs, although his are a bit on the short side. It looks like an effort is being made to create an article for every French commune. It would be better if a little more info could be provided - e.g. the infobox as used on the French Wikipedia (see Carnoy). Mjroots (talk) 20:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

As I;ve told you I almost always add a reference or a locator map and infobox or something -why do you think the other day I went through all the Category:Cities in Kazakhstan etc etc and added infoboxes and locator maps because I know how important this is. WHo do you think the guy is adding infoboxes to articles like Karakol etc and thousands of others?. But because of the sheer amount missing I need to methodically get them on to here first and this is the best way to start it. It would take months otherwise. I am all for articles being referenced and quality, I actually spend a lot of time taggin articles as unreferenced myself. I appreciate your concerns but there isn't anything stopping you from helping. INfoboxes can and will be added within seconds afterwards. PLease please believe me that I wouldn't create an article for the sake of it however it may seem <font style="color:#fef;background:black;">♦ Sir Blofeld ♦      <font size="-4"><font color="Black">$1,000,000? 20:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Quick side note from an uninvolved non-admin-As someone who works with a lot of French wine articles as part of the Wine Project, I find Sir Blofeld stub articles to be quite useful-particularly once the infobox and location coordinates are added. For users not familiar with French locations, knowing what department a city is in and its relative location within major wine regions can be quite useful. In the past, I have also expanded some of the stubs when they involve a notable wine village. Having a good starting point, infobox and all, makes those efforts much easier. AgneCheese/Wine 20:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

As a new page patroller, I have see a lot of Sir Blofeld's articles. I think it is a shame they are unreferenced, but he says that he is going to add references and infoboxes, and I trust him. These articles are valid, and useful additions to the encyclopedia. J Milburn (talk) 21:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Although unreferenced they are linked to the French wiki version. I see no reason why these will not develop more if given time. i can think of wrose and less relevant micro stubs. David D. (Talk) 21:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Well what reference can I add ? I feel the french and dutch wikipedia links are enough to show they are valid. When the infoboxes are added the external links/references will be copied straight from french wikipedia. This can be done in seconds. There are other editors gradually doing this but I would really appreciate it if a few more people got together and helped out. The best way things like this can develop is through people working together not against each other. I don;t generally create articles without external links either but this case is special because of the sheer content missing which should have been done years ago. <font style="color:#fef;background:black;">♦ Sir Blofeld ♦     <font size="-4"><font color="Black">$1,000,000? 21:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Next stage will be to developed them like Sainte-Sabine-Born within seconds and later translated from french on various sites <font style="color:#fef;background:black;">♦ Sir Blofeld ♦      <font size="-4"><font color="Black">$1,000,000? 21:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The basis of inclusion - I do newpage patrol as well - is whether the articles are verifiable (these are) and noteworthy (places of habitation default are); so no problem - they stay. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This is exactly what we need, more real world content. WP:NOT#PAPER is a perfect way to get a full gazetteer style set of pages in here. I think this is one of the best applications of our time and pages, far more useful and informative than fighting to keep 22 pages for the third season episodes of My Secret Identity. ThuranX (talk) 22:40, 3 February 2008 (UTC)