Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive370

Consensus or not

 * The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.


 * This is at DRV now. Discussion should continue there. Mr.  Z- man  21:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Nokia 1200 is the discussion on a page that was changed to a redirect today. The votes look fairly even to me, and it looks to me that there was no overall consensus. Snowman (talk) 18:31, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Deletion review is the place to request deletion discussions to be reviewed. Jehochman Talk 18:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * To me, it appears that consensus was reached (more or less) and the result should have been keep. I'm not sure why it was made into a redirect. Notability for a popular cell phone is easy to procure. That's my opinion. However, it looks like it was shared by a majority - not that we use voting, but you get the point. It's possible that this could be reopened to allow for consensus. Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 18:55, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not requesting a deletion review here. I am reporting it as a process that may not have been done according to the rules. Are there rules about what is a consensus? Snowman (talk) 19:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I closed it as redirect because the article didn't show any independent notability and every Keep vote merely said "it's notable". DRV?  Fine. Black Kite 19:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What you've described is *exactly* what DRV is for. Orderinchaos 19:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Another option is to rewrite the article with improved sourcing, better establishing the notability of the topic, and replace the redirect with the improved article. The original version is still visible to work from. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:49, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed, which I why I redirected it rather than deleting it. Black Kite 19:51, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * ... and what did the closing summary say? Snowman (talk) 20:02, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You don't seem to understand the concept here. If the article had shown that this particular phone was notable for some reason, with supporting sources, it would've been kept.  It didn't, so it wasn't.  If you can alter that, fine.  But we are not a directory of every phone that Nokia ever makes. Black Kite 20:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Realy? List of Nokia products, Category:Nokia mobile phones MickMacNee (talk) 20:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * As in - we shouldn't have an article for each one, unless they're independently notable. The list is fine. Black Kite 20:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The ratio of blue to red links doesn't suggest to me only notable models (i.e. groundbreaking tech?) have articles MickMacNee (talk) 20:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Or, as maybe a better choice, you could merge any interesting, verifiable content into the redirect target page if there is not enough substance to support a full article. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There was a photograph as well, and the resulting merged page would not be a balanced article with the image of one phone and not the others. Snowman (talk) 19:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a classic case of a closure that reflects the personal opinion of the closing admin, not the consensus of the AfD participants.--PeaceNT (talk) 20:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you want to try that again, with WP:AGF enabled this time? Not a single Keep vote gave any policy-based reason for it do be kept.  I'm getting sick of this. Black Kite 20:17, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "Not a single Keep vote gave any policy-based reason for it do be kept." — Sure, reopen the AfD and add your personal input. I'm not comfortable with administrators who apparently think they know better than others and perform bizarre closure instead of actually participating in the discussion with a view to building consensus. Your view, right or wrong, is solely your own, evidently not supported by the debate; it belongs within the debate, not the closer statement. If an administrator let their own opinion influence their judgement on consensus (while not bothering to get involved in the consensus-making process), they shouldn't be closing AfDs. --PeaceNT (talk) 20:36, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Where do you get the idea it was closed based on his opinion?  Majorly  (talk) 20:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter to me whose opinion that is, redirection is clearly not the outcome supported the debate in its current state. Period. The task of an AfD closer is only to determine what the consensus is, and here the admin has not done their homework. --PeaceNT (talk) 20:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Admins are allowed to use their discretion and AfD is not a vote, the quality of arguments matters. If the closing admin participated in the discussion, he would not be allowed to close it. Please take this to DRV if you wish to contest it further. Mr.  Z- man  20:43, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It should be noted that the only user who !voted "redirect" didn't provide any argument at all. --PeaceNT (talk) 20:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, and I'm not happy with people who are presumptuous enough to think they know what is going on inside my head. I closed that AfD in good faith according, as far as I could see, to policy.  If you've got a problem with that, take it to DRV. Black Kite 20:44, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * WP:DRV . I think we're done here. - Rjd0060 (talk) 20:46, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe not. Catchpole has reverted the redirection. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And reverted and locked. Now go to DRV. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:59, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This is at DRV now. Discussion should continue there. Mr.  Z- man  21:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This situation was not accepted at WP:AIV because it's too complex, so I'm posting it here: - Also uses  and. Probable socks of. Slow motion vandalism of Garrison Keillor, A Prairie Home Companion (film), and related articles for at least six months. Thanks. Ward3001 (talk) 21:41, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If these are suspected socks, then I would place the requisite template (sockpuppeteer) on the IP's user page to identify that you have expressed concerned that these reflect the activity of a single user. Also, there is no restriction to opening up a sockpuppetry case that deal with anon IPs in order to have admins take a look at it. However, most of the time the outcome comes back to WP:AIV. <font color="#660000">Wisdom89  ( <font color="#17001E">T |undefined /  <font color="#17001E">C ) 22:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible intimidation
I got a 3RR warning on Reliable sources from User:Francis_Schonken, that I consider highly unjust and intimidating, as well as highly disruptive to a constructive solution.
 * 1) I am here publicly accused of editwarring by the same user that is involved in this dispute on extremist sources (he thinks there should not be any impediment to the abuse of reliable sources in highlighting extremist sources).
 * 2) I made three different proposals to make myself clear and all edits were accompanied by TALK:.
 * 3) Since I was seriously discussing a very serious proposal per TALK already, this hardly counts as sterile edit warring, the spirit of the rule.
 * 4) This user did not respond properly to the rejection of his arguments and recurred to reverting instead, thus provoking a 3RR situation.
 * 5) Reverts without TALK or per proven misunderstanding of the edit using TALK should be allowed to be undone per TALK or edit summary.
 * 6) Evaluating the Schonken answers, rephrasing was no luxury since he is obviously playing dumb to my anwers (for instance here: Re. "it is not paraphrasing I refer to". Exactly. We shouldn't need to be worrying about it being paraphrasing or exact quote).
 * 7) I esteem this action creating strife, rather than encouraging to engage in TALK to resolve the issue.
 * 8) If indeed User:Francis_Schonken is an administrator (?), his involvement should be addressed on this level as well.

As such, I experience this undue 3RR warning as an attempt to impose another point of view by force, avoiding TALK. Rokus01 (talk) 22:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You were warned that you were about to break 3RR...when you were, in fact, about to break 3RR. It is common for an engaged editor to issue the warning. I also notice Francis edited the talk page concurrently with his reverts of your edits. Further, the fact that you happen to be discussing a matter does not excuse you from edit warring, especially on a guideline page. Just take the warning for what it is, and stick to discussion for the time being, and follow dispute resolution as necessary. There's no need to get worked up over it. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:41, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible Threat?
Hi all, rather than being paranoid, I was wondering if an admin could cast their eye's over this comment and possibly ask the editor in question to cease making such statements. Thanks Shot info (talk) 03:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 03:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * NP, although I think his parting edit sum, gives his/her regard for your efforts. Thanks anyway and hopefully it will make a difference.  Shot info (talk) 03:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Is it just me...

 * Moving long thread over 50k to Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Oxford Round Table. Cheers, D.M.N. (talk) 16:01, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Would somebody make sure this thread gets archived properly? Somehow I don't think shunting it off onto it's own subpage is going to allow that to happen. Pairadox (talk) 04:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the thread has died now anyway. That tends to happen when these sort of threads get moved to a subpage. The thread was also naturally coming to an end, so maybe it would have archived automatically after a day, but we will never know now. I know Betacommand has been manually archiving some noticeboards. Maybe he could deal with this subpage? Carcharoth (talk) 08:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * And it still sits there, abandoned and forlorn... Pairadox (talk) 04:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Orderinchaos 05:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I moved the thread as it is over 50k. People who have slower browsers find that this page especially loads up very slow, because of the big threads. D.M.N. (talk) 09:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I was about to do a cut-and-paste archive of the ORT subpage, but I'm not sure which archive to put it into--should it go into the latest archive, or should I try to put it with other stuff that was discussed on Feb 11-12? --Akhilleus (talk) 20:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * All right, I've added the thread to the end of Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive366 and redirected Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Oxford_Round_Table to the archive. I hope I didn't screw anything up... --Akhilleus (talk) 20:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Hempbilly
has violated WP:3RR attempting six times to add poorly sourced derogatory information about accusations of pedophilia to an article about a noted person whose work opposed America's conservative agenda, in violation of WP:BLP. There is a report above concerning his warring in a similar way yesterday to the same ends on a different article. He is actively continuing this behavior at the moment (the last such edit was within the past few minutes), and indicated that he intends to continue. I believe we should run a checkuser on this editor inasmuch as he is clearly more experienced than his small edit count would suggest, has shown no interest in discussing or otherwise participating, has refused to answer directly whether he is a sockpuppet, and exists for the single purpose of adding controversial material about liberals and removing such material from articles about conservatives. Wikidemo (talk) 21:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * As for Wikidemo allegations, they are groundless. He accuses me of adding "poorly sourced derogatory information" although he fails to explain how its poorly sourced. Its sourced to the National Review, and last I checked, the NR certainly meets all the criteria for inclusion based on WP:RS. It also adds a check to Ritters utterly ridiculous claims that he was "set up" into meeting an underage girl in the bathroom of a BK.
 * The example Wikideom goves for the Bernie Ward page is similarly baseless. The material was cited and sourced to a WP:RS, and last I checked thats the requirement ... not some strawman about whether the material is too salacious or descriptive.
 * Another similarly poor argument of Wikidemo’s is that I only trash talk some kinds of people, and strip information from articles about other kind of people. Reading minds is not advised, especially considering that its not possible to do so. And while there may be some truth in the articles I have been editing … so what … iof that was grounds to ban or block me, there would be thousands of other editors who would fall under this wide net. (Don’t see you complaining about the others Mr. Wikidemo)
 * As for the checkuser request, sounds like someone is a bit to eager to go fishing .... but go for it, this IS' my only account, although I have edited under IP's before.

Hempbilly (talk) 21:53, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This is not the place to assess the merits of content, but rather behavior problems that require administrator intervention (i.e. blocking Helpbilly to prevent ongoing disruptive editing). A quick review of Hempbilly's talk page and contribution history reveals an escalating campaign of inappropriate edits, and more recently, cursing in edit summaries, personal attacks, etc).  He is now up to 6RR on one article with no indication of stopping, after being reverted by four different editors who agree the material is inappropriate.  My conduct is not at issue here.  This is a reading of Wikipedia edits, not minds.Wikidemo (talk) 22:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Last time I tried editing on this ID, I was chased off by individuals so hell bent on owning an article that I decided to go anon for a while, looks like thats where I will have to go agian. Congratulations everyone, you won! Now you can relish that victory cookie even more.


 * And calling my edits "poorly sourced" and "derogatory" would seem to qualify as discusing the merrits of the content. There goes that standard for some and a standard for others that you seem so keen on upholding. Hempbilly (talk) 22:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I was actually surprised that this is here -- I had just filed an AIV report. WP:BLP/N has information of Hempbilly's POV-pushing/BLP-vios. at Bernie Ward.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 22:06, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, that was a good first step. I brought it here because the problem has continued and expanded since you brought it there.  It's an immediate behavioral issue concerning more than one article now, and BLP/N is simply not set up to quickly handle people who become disruptive editors overall.  Note the admission, and threat, to continue these inappropriate editors anonymously.  Would a checkuser show these anonymous IP accounts?  Can we do an IP block here?  Wikidemo (talk) 22:46, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Update - this now-blocked[ editor has blanked his talk page and user page,, claiming as he does here that he is abandoning this account to continue the disruptive edits under anonymous IP accounts to avoid detection. This is a vow of and admission to abusive [[WP#SOCK | sock-puppeting]].  Accordingly I've filed a checkuser request to figure out what anonymous IP accounts he refers to sockpuppeting under so we can check for possible WP:BLP violations in those edits, and also to prevent ongoing disruption under the anonymous accounts.  On his way out he tried three times to insert the BLP violations into talk talk pages as a protest against their getting removed from article space.    I suggest that a longer-term block and/or IP block is called for under the circumstances.Wikidemo (talk) 23:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I've got the two pages in question (from Hempbilly) watchlisted to monitor for any abusive changes.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 02:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Why not just semi-protect the pages in question for a couple of days? Problem solved. One has literally no random edits and the other one that is has said random edits reverted almost as fast as they're made. HalfShadow (talk) 02:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There is little justification now that Hempbilly has been blocked for 3RR and for BLP vios. In the case of Bernie Ward, which has seen increased activity in light of recent news, the BLP vios. were reverted within minutes -- although that didn't stop from chit-chat from occurring on the talk page. If it escalates with various socks of Hempbilly or more random IP edits, then one can request RPP.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 03:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * A checkuser has confirmed at Requests_for_checkuser/IP_check that Hempbilly has three other accounts. I haven't even begun to look and see if they have been misused for edit warring, but  has quite a history.  The checkuser has blocked his IP for 2 weeks, so altering the 24-hour 3RR block I made this afternoon would be largely symbolic, but there is a question of what to do next.  The most obvious option is to indef all accounts but the original (User:TDC).  But beyond that, can anyone make a really good case not to impose a community ban?  That's the direction I'm leaning. --B (talk) 04:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I see no reason why a community ban cannot be implemented.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 04:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I've reviewed the edits from the three other accounts and only found four recent contentious edits worth reverting, all from TDC. Some raised BLP concerns and others were just contentious.  I reverted these four for BLP reasons and so as not to reward an abusive sockpuppet with being able to slant article point of views.  All four accounts showed history of disruptive editing, disputes, etc., particularly TDC, which has quite a block history.  However, other than the four I reverted all of the problem edits were at least a month ago and now buried under many subsequent edits.  Rather than try to undo any of it, I figured it's better to leave things up to the discretion of the the people actively involved in the articles. I'm pretty satisfied that the abuse was real but the damage not widespread.  Wikidemo (talk) 07:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

user:Vintagekits
It has been brought to my attention that recently reposted a deleted article,. As far as I can see, the reposted version was the same as the deleted version, which is a violation of GFDL as well as deletion policy. Somebody who does not have a history with this user (i.e. not me) needs, I think, to find out whether this was taken from a site he believed to be GFDL, or whether it was just another in the extensive series of problem edits from this user. Guy (Help!) 00:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The page history shows a restore a few days ago, and Alison protecting the page as a redirect. I also don't see it in Vintagekits' recent contributions. Can you be more specific? The Evil Spartan (talk) 01:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * FWIW, while I also have a somewhat adversarial history with this user, he seems to have been unaware of the backstory involved (User talk:Vintagekits and hasn't attempted to create this. He seems to have edited a few articles extensively worked on by David, but in a constructive fashion, as far as I can tell. I saw the briefly-recreated article on Lauder-Frost, and his edits to it (I think he added a reference or two) seemed temperate and not for the purpose of making a personal attack on the subject. It appears to me to have been a mistake rather than deliberate misbehavior. Choess (talk) 04:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you are wrong: is the diff where VK reposts the entire article, from what source is not clear. It's the deleted article in its entirety, without attribution. Guy (Help!) 08:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I expect the edit was in response to the indef blocking of David Lauder et al, whom he had clashed with on this and related articles previously. Its typical of his style to edit like that to make the point that the editor he is in conflict with can't respond. He got the contents of the deleted article from another wiki, I expect, and didn't consider the GFDL issue. He backed of quickly enough, though, when warned to do so, suggesting it was an error more than anything malicious. Rockpock  e  t  09:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * He did seem unaware of the lengthy and complex history of that particular article, and as soon as I realised what had gone on I tried to make sure the new history was deleted and redirects protected. I'm not sure what more preventative action could be taken at this stage, three days later. He stepped on a landmine, it's all been dealt with, think it's best just to quickly move on? One Night In Hackney  303  09:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I should add that in the course of my research into the history of this situation a couple of weeks ago I discovered at least one off-wiki mirror of the GLF article. Relata refero (talk) 10:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Page-move nonsense
The article The limit of the semantic web is currently the subject of an AfD, and the article's creator, User:Identityandconsulting, has taken it upon himself to move the article three four times in quick succession, leaving a trail of silly redirects and making it difficult for anyone who wants to participate in the AfD to actually look at the article. Could someone straighten this mess out? Deor (talk) 05:10, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks like it's being cleaned up, but the copy on his userpage needs to be stripped of all the article categories (I can't figure out what section he has them all in). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm cleaning it up. I left the AFD templated tagged page even though its currently only a redirect, because of the need for the content to remain while the deletion debate goes on. Keep an eye on this user, he's being incredibly disruptive, and trying to game the deletion debate.  &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Son of the Defender  06:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I changed the link at the AFD (we have to do something so people can find the thing). I would just call it snowballed, but I already commented and would rather avoid any sort of technicality arguments once he gets to the inevitable deletion review  stage.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Community ban of user:CompScientist
For a bit of background, I came across user:CompScientist after a WQA report was filed regarding incivility at Nissan GT-R. The problem was a bit deeper, with extensive edit warring by CompScientist and various IP addresses which were recreating content or edits that were, for all intents and purposes, identical or very similar in style. Similar edits were made at supercar and at Vietnam War, where original research was inserted or text that was known to be of dispute were recreated against consensus and/or discussion. In these cases, one of the IP addresses would challenge the validity of the discussion and consensus, and content therein, and there would be accusations of bad faith thrown about.

After CompScientist was blocked for 96h on 01:58, 9 January 2008 for initial sockpuppetry and for filing false AIV reports against myself and possibly other editors/administrators (my memory is a bit foggy), he protested the block but was declined. He was blocked not long after for 1w on 12:14, 19 January 2008 for vandalism at and elsewhere.

Checkuser was performed and confirmed that nearly all of the IP contributions at Nissan GT-R and elsewhere were in fact, CompScientist. The block length was increased to 1m on 18:12, 21 January 2008.

soon cropped up, with edits to Nissan GT-R and Vietnam War that were very similar, if not identical, to CompScientist. As a result, the block was reset and extended for 1m on 11:17, 3 February 2008.

As a result, I watchlisted all of the pages that CompScientist was involved in, and noted an edit by on Vietnam War at 01:42, 17 February 2008 that was an identical edit by Wikipedian earlier. Per a comment here, I believe that it is appropriate to call for a community ban of CompScientist, given that this has become a clear abuse pattern. I have listed, with the help of Daniel Case, an extensive list of prior edits and IP addresses and usernames used by CompScientist -- Suspected sock puppets/CompScientist.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 06:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I fully support this community ban. From the first time I encountered him, through spurious reports on AIV, I find him very disruptive and he has certainly exhausted my patience, not only through his constant sockpuppetry but his vandalism to my talk page, in which he has attempted to make it appear to me that an SSP had been opened on me. He has the benefit of a dynamic IP, so we need everything possible to convey our distrust of this user. Daniel Case (talk) 06:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Kborer at socialized medicine: 3RR violated several times

 * User:Kborer has essentially reverted to a specific version (see also talk page), removing a key distinction (that socialized medicine is a term as opposed to a single system) four times in less than 24 hours, and and six or seven times in approximately 48 hours:

one two three four five six seven
 * Note that while there have been minor changes, the primary fixation seems to be to remove a (documented and referenced) issue with respect to the use of the term. Note that this is also a repeated pattern on this particular page, reverting three times or more within a short period of time. There is a clear pattern of violation of the spirit of wp:3rr.
 * The use of POV sources is also more than tendentious: witness the lead sentence being changed to "Socialized medicine is any health care system that embodies the fundamental principle of socialism."--Gregalton (talk) 08:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I am cross-posting this to the 3rr noticeboard, didn't realise there was a separate one.--Gregalton (talk) 09:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Francis Schonken
Francis Schonken is repeatedly violating BLP policy on the Prem Rawat article by linking [][][][] to a anonymously written, self published web sites that contains enormous amounts of unsourced OR and such derogatory unsourced claims as Rawat is "an 'alcoholic'and "Rawat smoked cannabis "four or five nights a week" when in residence at Malibu" and "Dettmers described a collision between a cyclist and a car being driven by Prem Rawat, the cyclist was killed instantly. By Dettmers account, Prem Rawat left the scene without submitting himself to the normal police enquires that ensued."[]. If I try to remove this link in accordance with BLP policy that "Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used, either as a source or as an external link" he threatens me with a 3RR on my talk page despite BLP policy saying "Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals." I would appreciate it if Admins will ensure BLP policy is upheld.Momento (talk) 11:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That's not a clearcut BLP violation; if you can't get consensus, take it to WP:BLPN. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 11:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There's already Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The allegation of heavy drinking is also voiced in a reputable source i.e. Washington Post Parents Versus Cult: Frustration, Kidnaping, Tears; Who Became Kidnapers to Rescue Daughter From Her Guru by Chip Brown, Washington Post Staff Writer Monday, February 15, 1982. Andries (talk) 11:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Regardless, it's not a requirement that all of the content on external links adhere to WP:BLP. BLP is for the content of Wikipedia.  We don't need to enforce on sites X links removed from Wikipedia.  That's not an endorsement of keeping the links; I haven't read them.  But saying that we can't link to something because it contains OR is to radically misunderstand Wikipedia policy. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 11:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Really? That is new information to me and a positiion that was contradicted by he arbcom in several cases. Andries (talk) 11:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you link to one? Sarcasticidealist (talk) 11:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, rereading my comments, I definitely overstepped my position. Give me a couple of minutes to refactor. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 12:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Your view Sarcasticidealist is completely at odds with BLP policy which states = "Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used, either as a source or as an external link" and "Self-published websites should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article". And further from Links guidelines - "In biographies of living people, material available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all, either as sources or via external links. External links in biographies of living persons must be of high quality and in full compliance with Wikipedia official policies.Momento (talk) 12:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Momento,
 * please note WP:FORUMSHOP (part of a behavioural guideline here at Wikipedia);
 * "Prem Rawat aka Maharaji Prem Rawat aka Maharaji Information Resource" appears like a sound source to me. You're far from convincing me of the contrary. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know about that second point. Who runs this website? Does it have some form of editorial control? What is its reputation for fact-checking? Has it been quoted in known reliable sources? These questions should have been, to quote, asked and answered by now. Relata refero (talk) 14:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Relata Refero. There's very little in the way of citation in the pages of that site. While I'm not disputing the information there, the 'interviews' aren't dated or explained, just random information attributed to the persons mentioned. He doesn't state when he talked to them, and some sections are just 'analysis' of the guys' hypocrisy. Until and unless that information's sources becomes transparent, that site's not up to the level of a WP:RS, and does, in fact, come off as slightly vendetta-ish. I'd say it's very bad form to link it, and that the BLP clauses probably ought to be applied. ThuranX (talk) 17:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Bamford and that COI tag
User:Bamford is back to removing a COI tag that got him blocked just the other day. Prior thread is here. Cheers, Jack Merridew 13:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Per this diff here which appears to be a "threat" to continue removing the tag, should his block be extended? Wildthing61476 (talk) 15:19, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've blocked for another 24 hours, (see block review below). I'd say he's had his chances at WP:AGF after this one and if he continues, a week long block would be appropriate.  MBisanz  talk 15:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Alternate account
I want to create an alternate account User:Intercontinental ballistic missile. I have some questions.
 * Can I create such alternate account?
 * Will the name User:Intercontinental ballistic missile be acceptable?
 * If I create the acoount, then what will be the password. The same password I use for my present account, or other password.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 14:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Go ahead, just make it crystal clear on the user page of both users that each is an alternate account of the other, and don't edit as if you were two people. Use any good password you like. WAS 4.250 (talk) 14:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * And maybe read through the policy <span style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;">&mdash;αlεx•mullεr 15:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I have been created by User:Otolemur crassicaudatus. Intercontinental ballistic missile (talk) 15:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem here is that my log clearly telling that I have created the alternate account, but the other's log is empty. I have no idea why this happened.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 15:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It shows up here - note that I used the different text box. x42bn6 Talk Mess  15:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

IP 71.99...
This has been brought up here at least twice before, but the situation doesn't seem to be improving, please skim through the discussions located here: Abuse reports/71.x.x.x, it started out with this user using some articles as a propaganda machine and me reverting him, since then, he has started using misleading and offensive edit summaries, make personal attacks in English and in Czech and worst for me: going through my contributions and undoing my edits, these edits 99% of the time look to be good faith. The user has been active for months maybe even years, he has acquired over forty blocks and two range blocks, he's not active right this second, but last night he went to undo my edits again, when I reported him, administrators failed to block him and an administrator (not going to name) removed him from AIV telling me to report here, obviously not even looking through the abuse reports from which the situation is very obvious. Numerous users including many admins are familiar with the situation most notably user:Kubigula who has seen him in action and has received personal attacks from him as well. I'm here to seek help since I'm finding it difficult to receive it elsewhere and I'm starting to think that simple blocks aren't working and it's time for something else.--The Dominator (talk) 15:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Martinphi removal of POV tag
Martinphi removed a POV tag at Yi Ching. Despite being asked to replace it, he has not done so. Instead he has place a citation template there (my edit was cited). I do not want to edit war with this user who also wikistalked me to the Project Words_to_avoid and reverted me there.I'd be grateful if someone could help. Mccready (talk) 23:53, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * At the moment, this is not a drawn out edit war, and does not need admin attention. I would suggest politely pointing out that the POV tag should remain so long as one editor thinks the POV is present. That said, I also think you two should just stay away from each other and each other's talk pages: use the community talk pages. The Evil Spartan (talk) 01:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * User has been trolling on multiple articles which I happen to watch. He makes highly POV, pseudoscientific, or non/against consensus edits, then reverts, then goes to your talk page to scold as if you've broken policy (he apprently learned a small bit from all his blocks, but his basic manner remains unchanged).  In the current instance, he is acting as though the whole article is POV because the lead does not mention criticism; the criticism at the time consisted of one sentence.  This in spite of an  tag on the section.  POV tag was removed per general consensus that it shouldn't be there.  And I placed no  tags on the article.  Look at his block log and edit history .  —— Martinphi    ☎ Ψ Φ —— 05:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Martinphi is correct in removing the neutrality tag, IMO. Mccready has not explained what aspect of the article's neutrality is in dispute. He has been asked to state the neutrality problem in respect to: WP:NPOV, WP:VER, and WP:NOR. This he has failed to do . Sunray (talk) 06:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Could an admin now have a look at this. Both User:Martinphi] and [[User:Sunray have reverted the POV tag despite advice above in this thread and despite advice from another user on the talkpage. of Yi Ching. User:Sunray is also inserting OR. I have requested an apology from Martinphi for his inflammatory, uncivil and wrong accusation of trolling. Mccready (talk) 08:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I didn't remove it again. —— Martinphi   ☎ Ψ Φ —— 01:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I've restored the tag, but only under the condition that you hash out your arguments on the talk page, and then abide by the consensus. If you believe more of the community needs to be privy to the argument, try WP:RFC. The Evil Spartan (talk) 09:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

This should be referred to arbitration enforcement. Martin is under restrictions for making disruptive edits per Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist. ScienceApologist (talk) 12:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Block review
This user has just been brought to my attention. He has a long history of vandalism and unconstructive editing. WHOIS shows this is an ADSL connection, which I believe to be static, but the pattern of edits is more than persuasive that this is one editor. He has had numerous warnings, and stops when warned only to return with the same pattern of editing. My view is that we could do with a rest from this and have blocked him for a week (I was considering a month) to prevent further disruption and to bring home that his style of editing is unhelpful. There has already been discussion between two editors here, but my opinion is that this cannot continue. Would anyone care to review this block to make sure I'm not out of line please? --<font color="7F007F">Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 13:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a BT IP and probably dynamic. With those you're better off just blocking for short periods. One Night In Hackney  303  13:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * IPs in the ranges 81.145.240 - 81.145.242 are dynamically assigned by BT/AOL and best served by blocks lasting 31 hours at the very most. -- zzuuzz (talk) 20:41, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

JK Cromwell
Despite having been previously blocked for edit warring, JK Cromwell has continued to disrupt and add unsourced information to multiple articles. For more information, see her contributions. I believe her block should be reinstated and extended.  Serendi <sup style="color:#bb0000;">pod ous  18:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I have re-blocked and extended this to 48 hours. Returning to an edit war once a 3RR block has expired and replacing unsourced material is disruptive editing. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Sockpuppets of UkraineToday
UkraineToday is a banned user (I don't know how to format a link to a block, but here is the line from Yamla's log: # 20:02, 7 September 2007 Yamla (Talk | contribs) blocked "UkraineToday (Talk | contribs)" (account creation blocked, e-mail blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ (violation of WP:NLT, continuing email harassment).

Now UkraineToday's socks are springing up really quickly. We have Suspected sock puppets/UkraineToday (3 named socks, 3 IPs) from January 18, then this Suspected sock puppets/UkraineToday (3rd) (2 named socks, 7 IPs] from January 26, then Suspected sock puppets/UkraineToday (4th) (2 named socks and 7 IPs) from February 2, and Suspected sock puppets/UkraineToday (5th) (1 named sock) February 17, and two more IPs (one blocked by Jehochman, the other, User:80.97.94.178 I have not reported yet (the IP has been used by other editors in the past).

I have applied for semi-protection (granted a few hours later - jd2718) for the article WP:RFP he has been trying to edit. Do I just keep reporting the socks as they appear? Is there something else to do? Jd2718 (talk) 19:10, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Avoiding User:Douglasfgrego scenarios
There has been a fairly unpleasant incident this weekend with this user getting indefinitely banned as a result. I don't question the process as the user used, to say the least, 'intemperate' language. However, the reason I'd like to broaden the discussion from what anyone can read above - and it's a given that we'd prefer to avoid banning contributors - is that the situation clearly spiralled out of control before everyone's eyes. Nobody wanted the matter to end up as it did but it ended badly because everyone got mad.

Feelings were running high on both sides and I'd suggest that we need a 'red button' that anyone can hit in any such situation. This 'red button', a chill-out button, when pressed, would prevent any addition to any discussion for 24 hours. An enforced time out. Then everyone can come back a day later to sort things out. By button, I don't necessarily mean a red thing on the screen; just perhaps an admin, or maybe any participant, to intervene arbitrarily to shut a heated dialogue down. I think if this had been present yesterday, we'd have avoided the fracas we had. We need to avoid driving contributors away. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Threat of violence
<font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix talk  00:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

And another - The guy's jumping IPs.<font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix  talk  00:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Five different IPs in total, two appear to be proxies, two are dynamic (Verizon and AT&T), but the fifth is interesting - a college IP from Indiana. Match anyone we know? <b style="color:black;">Black Kite</b> 00:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know. Does it?  :)  <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix  talk  00:20, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know. That's why I asked. :)  At a guess, probably an off-wiki co-ordinated attack, I know this editor has had problems with this before, as have many others. <b style="color:black;">Black Kite</b> 00:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * (ec) He's been harassed for a long time; look at the history of Jack's user page and take your pick, though I suspect those are mostly the same person. It might be related to this; they're tagged as sockpuppets of "Grawp" but I don't know if that's significant.  Antandrus  (talk) 00:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... Maybe it means that we've found the specific location and institution of one of our most prolific current vandals. I don't know if this was known before. Grand  master  ka  00:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's just Grawp posting calls to vandalize on 4chan again... nothing to see... although the recent history of my user talk page is amusing... <small style="background:#fff;border:#daa520 1px solid;color:#000;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap">east<big style="color:#090">. 718 at 01:05, February 18, 2008
 * That's been going on for a couple of months. Frankly, if life is this empty for 4-chan members, one wonders why they don't consider suicide... HalfShadow (talk) 01:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Ironically, they probably say the same about us, but with this significant difference: we have created the largest encyclopedia in the history of the human race, while all they have done is ... is ... :) Antandrus  (talk) 02:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Started their frontal assault on Scientology.  bibliomaniac 1  5  03:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Norman Rogers

 * There is a complete moron vandalizing this article from various IPs and accounts with the name "Norman Rogers" in them. The article should be semi-protected and usernames with "Norman Rogers" in them blocked immediately. JuJube (talk) 00:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The article has been protected and if such users continue to vandalize, please report them to WP:AIV. SorryGuy Talk  00:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * (ec) I've semi'd the page for now (with full move protection), but I expect we might want to extend it to long term full protection in the near future. More about this rather old meme can probably be found on Google. -- zzuuzz (talk) 01:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Triberocker feuding
In a discussion of -puppetry by Triberocker, I noted
 * And he appears to look at this situation as a feud. For example, after the checkuser result, I gave myself a temporary link to his block log, so that I could see what (if anything) followed.  He responded as if this were a tit-for-tat thing.

I now note an edit in which Triberocker appears to declare just that.

(The administrative action taken in response to the -puppetry was to temporarily range-block anon edits from some Valparaiso University IPs. No block was applied to the Triberocker account itself.) —SlamDiego&#8592;T 01:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Marvellous.
Could someone close the 'tardgate, please? HalfShadow (talk) 01:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Semi-pp for three hours. --<font color="7F007F">Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 02:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)re
 * It seems our immature interlopers may have some sleeper accounts, one of which I have just blocked indef. --<font color="7F007F">Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 02:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikistalking by a 75 IP
I've blocked the same 75 dynamic IP a few times towards the end of 2007. Apparently this IP has been stalking me, with these mysterious edits - (these are users that I indefinitely blocked) -     - this is suspicious as well. This IP has been causing more trouble, see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_U.S._Roads. Could someone look at this situation? --Rschen7754 (T C) 02:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

continual lack of good faith and WP:OWN displayed by one editor
I wish to report the behaviour of user User:Mathsci who continually has tried to discourage me from contributing and editing articles on French localities in a significant display of WP:OWN and particularly WP:OWN. This first started with accusations of being lazy and unconstructive and being disruptive and having no "special knowledge of French or France"  and  then reverted a legitimate edit of mine  which I believe this was solely done as I did that edit. This developed into a personal attack as shown in the edit summary of and still displaying WP:OWN in. And then accused me of "not aiding the WP project" today at At no point has this editor assumed good faith about my edits. I have tried to reason and warn about lacking good faith on numerous occasions to no avail, , and given warnings ,. Michellecrisp (talk) 02:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have hardly edited recently because I am busy giving a graduate course/preparing a book. I did buy an 800 page book on the history of Marseille (in French) on a recent brief trip back to France: I have used this a little to check historical details mentioned by other editors on the page of Marseille and have suggested using it as the source for a detailed article on the chronology of Marseille (a similar article already exists on the French WP). Michellecrisp appears to have followed me to Aix-en-Provence. I own neither of these pages but have them on my watchlist. Much local information (eg detailed local history) on both these places is only available in French. If dates are added which contradict the chronology in an authoritative and encyclopedic history they will be corrected using the reliable source. Michellecrisp seems to have gone on a tagging spree on information added mostly by other editors long ago and has not tried to source the information on her own (such as population estimates from INSEE). Often sourcing information is not hard to do with a knowledge of French: the official information is often only available in French. I have no idea why she has brought this to WP:AN/I. Her choice of the word "continual" is odd considering my recent wikibreak. Mathsci (talk) 23:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * My original comments stand. I am not questioning Mathsci's knowledge of French topics. but the violation of principles of assuming good faith and clear WP:OWN (I have given seven examples above of this which has occured over the past month) which has regrettably developed to personal attacks. It is against Wikipedia principles to discredit or put down other editors for lacking knowledge. Michellecrisp (talk) 23:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Your content dispute does not represent what happened on the actual pages, where you added faulty information (mistaking a TGV station for an SNCF station, quizzing the climate of Aix, dismissing the ancient monuments of Marseille, getting dates wrong). I have no idea why, without adding any significant content to either of these pages but merely tagging indiscriminately, you have seen fit to bring your grievances to WP:AN/I. You have not made any very clear arguments on the talk pages and most of your taggings that I have had time to look at are easy to justify. They mostly concern long standing additions by other editors. If you tag without discussion and add faulty information, is it not to be expected that somebody with access to detailed information will check the information and add sources? That does not constitute ownership of an article: it merely means that sources are being provided. Data from dubious websites that contradict acknowledged encyclopedic history books will be corrected in this process. This "dispute", of your own making, should never have been brought here. Your tagging was provocative: you seem now to be objecting when proper sources have been added to justify material of long standing by other editors. That seems unreasonable on your part. It seem odd that you have been tagging with no intention of checking the information for yourself, which cannot be so hard, even in Australia. I think you have misrepresented the recent editing history: you seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill. Mathsci (talk) 01:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This is not a content dispute but an issue of user behaviour. My issues is here are your comments that you have directed to me that violate assume good faith and WP:OWN. ownership of article includes trying to discourage others from editing not necessarily "owning" in the literal sense. Please let this be reviewed by an administrator.Adding faulty information such as the SNCF edit was done in good faith. I have never deliberately added faulty information. Feel free to check the history of Marseille or Aix-en-Provence where I have found some references and tried to improve wording. I have brought this grievance here because after repeated warning you fail to assume good faith and have developed into personal attacks, and a deliberate campaign to dissuade me from editing articles. Michellecrisp (talk) 01:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "a deliberate campaign to dissuade me from editing articles"? On the contrary you have chosen a very public place to misrepresent my WP edits. Bonne nuit. Mathsci (talk) 02:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This is very clearly a content dispute. Please take follow the policy Dispute resolution in resolving this issue. Your dispute does not belong here. If necessary, please request mediation. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Please clarify how this is a content dispute? I am reporting the issue of user behaviour, specifically WP:AGF and WP:OWN as evidenced in my diffs in the original post. This is not related to specific content. I am not disputing the content of any article mentioned, I am disputing the validity of editors asking other editors not to contribute to certain articles. One of the things Mathsci is questioning is my right to tag articles. Michellecrisp (talk) 05:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I have removed "content". You still need to work through dispute resolution to get this taken care of. That's what it's for. So far, I don't see anything that specifically needs an administrator to do anything. Any user can warn another for violating policy or guidelines. You are having a dispute with Mathsci, and the steps on WP:DR are there to help you work through the dispute. Please take advantage of that information and the steps found there. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have said that I am on a wikibreak because I am otherwise occupied in real life. Michellecrisp is needlessly wikilawyering here because I have added "of note" after the word "fountains" in Aix-en-Provence to describe two particular fountains, picked out in the cited Guide Michelin for Provence. From her contributions here and on my talk page, she is simply trolling to make a highly ill-conceived point that appears at the bottom her user page. She is being highly disruptive. The presence of this inappropriate report suggests that she is set on harrassing me and does not properly understand how WP works. I unfortunately have no time at present to engage in interactions with Michellecrisp unrelated to actual content in WP articles. Thank goodness she has stayed away from mathematics articles. :) Mathsci (talk) 07:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Michellecrisp has added fresh citation tags to Marseille. She has inspired me to prepare a WP article on Pierre Corneille's play Médée when I return to France. Can someone please award her a barnstar? Mathsci (talk) 09:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Does anyone note the continual lack of good faith displayed by Mathsci towards me and less than subtle personal criticism in their above comments? Could an administrator please read my original post? I have attempted to warn the user in question of potential WP:AGF and WP:OWN violations and only came here because the user persisted with this behaviour to this point with no cessation as shown in the rather rude edit summary here . I have made several warnings which I stepped up to higher levels (the next level being reporting here) but this behaviour towards me continued (as shown in the seven comments I have provided in diffs above). I would like to continue editing or tagging article I see fit without being rudely discouraged each time I edit an article. With the exception of Masalai I have never experienced this in the 20 months I've been on Wikipedia. An example as shown in my original post was Mathsci reverting one of my edits simply because it was me, I changed some text to conform to policy WP:LAYOUT and removed non-relevant links .  is not a content conflict but one based on one editor disliking me editing French geography articles. Where is the evidence of my disruptive behaviour? Tagging is not disruptive but as per WP:CITE and WP:PROVEIT Michellecrisp (talk) 10:29, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There has been no revert war. One revert of your edits does not warrant the needless and inappropriate drama you have been creating here. You are behaving out of all proportion, apparently because you have been upset when some of your errors have been corrected. Please desist. Normally people with some knowledge of France or the French language edit pages related to France (the pages on Aix-en-Provence and Marseille are not "geography articles" as you quite wrongly suggest). When this is not the case, such errors are to be expected and should not be taken personally. Now you seem intent on exacting some form of revenge, quite outside wikipedia rules. Why not make yourself a nice cup of tea instead? Mathsci (talk) 22:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not a revert war, therefore not a content dispute. The above comments still reflect a lack of good faith and WP:OWN as displayed continously despite my repeated warning. This continues with Mathsci's recent revert of my comment. I might have said geography but perhaps more broadly cities and towns fall under a category of geography and places. My original complaint stands as a violation of WP:AGF and WP:OWN. Comment on content not editors as they say. Michellecrisp (talk) 08:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Michellecrisp, please, please, please, take some time to learn about WP. I can remove any comment on my own talk page if I wish. Your complaint is absurd and, as an administrator has already said, whatever your grievances, no administrator can help you. One remedy is to get a detailed book on the history/recent history of Marseille or Aix-en-Provence, read and digest the contents and then transfer that information to the English wikipedia. If the only books are in French, polish up your French. Become an "expert" on the topic. You are wasting time, space and energy here. Go and have that nice cup of tea now, it's starting to get cold :) Mathsci (talk) 08:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * BTW you risk being blocked if you continue publicly harrassing me here. You have read but ignored that I am on a wikibreak. You are starting to be extremely disruptive. If I am not editing/reverting how can you continue to make these very unreasonable claims about wikiownership? Please stop now. Mathsci (talk) 08:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This is not harassment, I am reporting your behaviour of accusations of being lazy and unconstructive and being disruptive and having no "special knowledge of French or France"  and  then reverted a legitimate edit of mine  which I believe this was solely done as I did that edit. This developed into a personal attack as shown in the edit summary of  and still displaying WP:OWN in . And then accused me of "not aiding the WP project" at  At no point has this editor assumed good faith about my edits. I have tried to reason and warn about lacking good faith on numerous occasions to no avail, .  Become an "expert" on the topic. is classical WP:OWN. Please provide diffs of harassment to back your claim. I have provided diffs of violation of WP:AGF and WP:OWN Michellecrisp (talk) 13:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * An administrator has intervened to tell you that you are mistaken and yet you persist. This might suggest that you have some kind of personal problem. Kindly address this problem in private and stop using this page as a WP:FORUM. Since I am not editing mainspace or talk pages at the moment (that is what "wikibreak" means), your behaviour here constitutes harrassment. You raised your points three days ago and nobody has agreed with you. What exactly do you expect to happen? If you have difficulty understanding these issues, please seek help privately elsewhere. Your comments on my advice "Become an expert on the topic" seem quite unintelligent. You should probably also remove this inflammatory comment on your user page:
 * "One thing I don't like is when editors display WP:OWN. No one owns articles on Wikipedia and no one can dissuade other legitimate editors from contributing. There is no hierarchy for more 'experienced' or 'qualified' editors."
 * It suggests that you are looking for "test cases" in your own faulty misreading of WP policies. You are acting as a vigilante and that is quite a serious offense. It suggests that you are set on disrupting the project to satisfy your own personal agenda. Mathsci (talk) 01:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * With all due respect (and noting full well I used to do the same in 2006 when I didn't know any better) administrators are merely users with extra rights and there's about 1,500 of us, so citing one of us is not going to mean much. However, you're of course welcome to cite *me*, as I like feeling important. :P Orderinchaos 19:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you: I am quite aware of this. The editor User:Michellecrisp seems to be wikilawyering. In the two articles under discussion, she has not added any actual content and seems intent on creating some kind of dispute. As I have already said, I am too busy at the moment in real life to edit the wikipedia, except en passant. Mathsci (talk) 21:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

with regard to your claims to harassment, unless you can provide diffs (which you have failed to) then it's WP:KETTLE. Secondly, an admin made a comment, but haven't you noticed that generally a resolved icon is shown to close off the incident report. Michellecrisp (talk) 06:51, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you are a particularly persistent individual who has made a faulty accusation that you are incapable of supporting. Since there has been only one reversion so far, your behaviour here seems to be highly irrational. Please nurse your bruised ego elsewhere. Mathsci (talk) 21:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * BTW, without making any attempt to analyse your mental processes, the fact that you have posted this non-existent "incident" is a proof of harassment. You have given no evidence of repeated reverts (because there have been none) or any other abnormal behaviour. You merely seem to be inordinately displeased and now seem intent on extracting your revenge. Is there something I might be missing? I am all ears, Michelle. Mathsci (talk) 21:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * ;)Mathsci (talk) 21:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not questioning any reverts except one. "Incapable of supporting" my claim? My complaint centres around your seven comments to me displaying WP:AGF and WP:OWN that's in my original post. It's that simple. It's plan to see that you have assumed bad faith about me all along.Michellecrisp (talk) 08:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * For the record, Mathsci claims above that "the two articles under discussion (Marseille and Aix-en-Provence, she has not added any actual content". Well I've added a few references to strengthen the articles,, , , , , how is that not helping? This is again another example of bad faith of MathSci. Michellecrisp (talk) 08:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Another example of Mathsci's assuming bad faith with their edit summary of which another editor commented as "these citation tags are more to do with your dispute with MichelleCrisp than anything else" . May also be considered evidence of WP:POINT. No coincidence that Mathsci wanted to disrupt an article that I was editing earlier that day? Michellecrisp (talk) 14:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

11,000 images tagged NFUR in one day
This discussion has been moved to Administrators' noticeboard/Betacommand. 15:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

More V-Dash socks
User:Supertoolbox is going around and changing the userpages of User:V-Dash socks to make it appear as if they were Jeske socks. Anyone want to handle this? sho y  17:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Blocked. But, we should ignore these to whatever extent possible.  I see no value in bothering to create userpages for throwaway troll accounts.  Revert, block, ignore.  Creating a collection of trophies only encourages them. Friday (talk) 17:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

(merging duplicate threads)

User's talk page has a personal attack against Friday and Jeske... dont know how this started or who's sock this user is, but it should be investigated. Queerbubbles (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 17:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for letting us know! The user has been blocked. ➔ REDVEЯS knows how Joan of Arc felt 20:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, guys. It's nice to know that I can sit down and play a video game without worrying about getting blocked due to this guy. -Jéské ( Blah  v^_^v ) 19:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Jeke_Couriano is another V-Dash sock who is going around...he just tried to say I was Jéské sock. -Sukecchi (talk) 19:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Another...—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 07:09, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * He's been blocked. Please only report unblocked socks, and, as Friday says, please do not tag them as V-Dash socks - he's taken to altering sockpuppet tags (meaning tagging them gives him more targets), and I notice he's now waiting until I'm not on.  -Jéské ( Blah  v^_^v ) 07:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn't realize it was already blocked. I'll go change that tag, since Slakr just banned it without a word (no offense)...—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 07:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of pop culture lists
has been removing "in pop culture" sections from articles unilaterally. Charles Stewart (talk) 09:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That's right. WillOakland (talk) 09:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

He also took it upon himself to do this. Charles Stewart (talk) 09:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep, I changed the passive "could be" (by someone else, it always seems) to "please do." —Preceding unsigned comment added by WillOakland (talk • contribs) 09:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I urge you to discuss these removals on the talk pages of the applicable articles, as large-scale removal of such sections generally results in a widespread edit war, which is very much unwelcome.--Father Goose (talk) 09:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

This edit summmary, being WillOakland's third edit since registering, and the user's general behavior strongly suggests this is a sock account.--Father Goose (talk) 09:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree Will seems pretty familiar with the swing of things which does suggest a previous incarnation. Though that in itself is not an issue unless it was a banned person. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:49, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

This WillOakland is also deleting large amounts of information in Trivia sections as well as taking it upon his/herself to change the trivia template without discussion so it appears that damage is being done on a large scale in different sections. I am talking about referenced items being removed unilaterally not long after a trivia tag is applied also. I really think Admins need to intervene with this person. UB65 (talk) 09:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I honestly did not imagine that a mere change in tone of the template would be a problem. WillOakland (talk) 10:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Trivia and "In pop culture lists" are almost always bad news - they trivialise important and serious subjects and make wikipedia look stupid and tacky. The pop culture list creators make the mistake of saying their subject has something to do with their pop culture item, when plainly it is the other way around *only*. If some video game has the Eiffel Tower in it for example, that is not a fact about the tower but a fact about the game (and thus should not go on the tower page). Further, their inherent listy nature (rather than seamless prose) is a major detraction. People don't read lists, but (bored teenage?) editors love adding their personal favourite pop culture tid bits. GAH!!!


 * But my rant above is not what ANI is for. Thus, let me say that WillOakland would likely have a better impact on wikipedia if he went about these removals in a more consultative rather than combative fashion. Sudden removal can really annoys people (who otherwise might have been persuadable), entrenches positions in place of reason, and starts edit wars. If he made a clearer case for removal first, and brought people with him, he'd have more luck, create less agro, and improve wikipedia. regards --Merbabu (talk) 10:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * PS, removing trivial trivia and pop culture additions when they appear is a lot easier than removing established lists which require more consultation. That's where your more likely to get quick results.--Merbabu (talk) 10:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I have reviewed some of these edits - Kermit the frog, Leonard Mccoy, Dilbert, parsec. He goes further than I would but they seem to be reasonable edits made with some care, rather than unthinking slashes.  Colonel Warden (talk) 10:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * rg ::PS, Ah, maybe that was what he was thinking in the case that I was mostly concerned with. The information had been a part of the article for some time as far as I can tell and then somebody added the trivia tag a few days ago and so boom, he removes all of it. UB65 (talk) 10:33, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * FYI at that point I was just going down the list of article that link to Family Guy. WillOakland (talk) 10:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That's exactly what I guessed you were doing. FWIW, my method was to review your contributions and then look at the few articles which interested me.  Colonel Warden (talk) 10:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

"...would likely have a better impact on Wikipedia if he went about these removals in a more consultative rather than combative fashion. Sudden removal can really annoys people (who otherwise might have been persuadable), entrenches positions in place of reason, and starts edit wars. If he made a clearer case for removal first, and brought people with him, he'd have more luck, create less agro, and improve Wikipedia. regards --Merbabu (talk)"
 * It really boils down to retaining the information rather than just deleting it. Incorporating the information into the article takes a few minutes but is much better than losing it by cutting. I agree with Merbabu's statement:


 * PS, articles do look way better with the information incorporated into the article rather than set apart as tivia and pop lists, etc..

UB65 (talk) 11:23, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * In the end, it boils down to "does this information enhance the reader's understanding of the subject?" If the answer is no, then excise it.  After all, this is (or was last time I looked) an encyclopedia. (And if the answer is yes, include it in the main article, rather than in a separate section). <b style="color:black;">Black Kite</b> 11:53, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Having done it a few times before, it is not that easy or quick to integrate trivia into prose. MickMacNee (talk) 14:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like Burntsauce reincarnated. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Obviously, disruptive editing. I'll start to revert these.  This kind of disruptive editing does call for administrative intervention.  We've been through this nonsense several times before already.  If the user won't stop he needs to be blocked.  Wikidemo (talk) 15:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't support sockpuppets of banned editors, but I fully support the outright, unilateral removal of poorly written, indiscriminate pop culture sections. When there's mostly bathwater and very little baby, sometimes it's best to start from scratch.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 16:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, you can only prune an overgrown bush when you've actually got a bush. --<font color="7F007F">Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 16:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Please do not simply revert these. In some cases, you have reverted original research and unsourced speculation right back into the article.  By all means put back specific references if they're notable, significant, encyclopedic, and well-sourced.  While I disapprove of this guy's methods, on the whole his edits are improving the encyclopedia.  And that should be the bottom line. Nandesuka (talk) 16:06, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree with the Fat Man and Nandesuka; such content is rarely useful, and if it could have been integrated into the article, it should have been. Reverting all of them makes no more sense than deleting them to begin with did.  And I'm not comfortable with logic like "sounds like" referring to previous banned users. Haven't we learned?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course I will simply revert these. I am looking through them and selectively reverting - a number of the deletions are clearly inappropriate.  In many other cases there is no useful content there so I'm leaving them as is.  It's not up to me to chase behind disruptive editors with a broom cleaning up their messes.  The editor admits here that he is conducting an "intervention" on Wikipedia.  Again, we have been through this ridiculous thing before, and it resulted in arbcom cases, administrators being de-sysopped, and so on.  We don't need that kind of thing here.  That is not what this project is about.  Wikidemo (talk) 16:11, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Nor is this project about defending the inclusion of unsightly, unencylopedic garbage in articles. I have no comment on the editor but generally support the edits.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 16:24, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, actually, it is. Keeping up the encyclopedia always involves being on the lookout for people who are more interested in making  points than actually contributing.  I'm not defending bad content, just dealing with a disruptive editor who is causing unnecessary drama.  Again, we have been through this issue before.  The issue has been settled already, which is why we have a guideline on the subject.  This kind of nonsense always causes trouble.  Wikidemo (talk) 16:31, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That's unfair to the editor. What point is this editor trying to make other than every article should be readable, well-organized and well-written? The editor is greatly improving the readability and presentability of articles in a minimum amount of time; I have a problem scolding anyone for that.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 16:45, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I'm done. I've looked through and carefully read most of this editors content deletions over the past few days, and reverted perhaps 1/3 of them. As a rule I've reverted when I saw that the deletions eliminated a substantial amount of encyclopedic material, and let them be in cases where there was very little or nothing salvageable. One thing that he, and some other users, gravely misunderstand is that many of these articles (e.g. Kermet the Frog) are pop culture phenomena to begin with, so that the subject's place in popular culture is part and parcel of their notability. For an actor to participate in popular culture (e.g. taking a role, voicing a character) is what they do. An important event such as the Tiananmen Square massacre is important not because people were killed and jailed but because it reshaped culture. To actually deal with the articles this editor disrupted would take days...and that's what we do here, deal with and improve articles. To go about deleting content you don't like is a lazy, pointless exercise that does more harm than good. If you don't like trivia, edit articles for real but don't come here to cause trouble. Wikidemo (talk) 16:37, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Deleting useless information is "editing articles for real." The text you restored contains encyclopedic gems like: In October 2005, Kermit embarked on a tour visiting 50 "incredibly fun - and some just plain strange - places around the world to celebrate my 50th year in show business."  You're pouncing on an editor and calling him names for trying to keep articles free of this nonsense.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 16:45, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Quoting a piece of material you object to is besides the point. If he had wanted to delete that particular line he could have.  He didn't though.  Instead, he deleted a bunch of other material that another editor partly restored, including some encyclopedic content such as "On Kermit's 50th anniversary in show business, the United States Postal Service released a set of new stamps with photos of Kermit and some of his fellow Muppets on them" and "A statue of Henson and Kermit was erected on the campus of Henson's alma mater, the University of Maryland, College Park in 2003."  I did not touch the Kermit article, and nobody deleted or restored the section you quoted.  Deleting large swaths of content as "trivia" is a disruptive activity that serves no valid purpose and sets us back instead of forward.  It is counter to guidelines.   Please don't encourage people to make disruptive edits. Wikidemo (talk) 17:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Including large swaths of content as trivia is also a disruptive activity. Simply reverting removals of it is even more disruptive. It's a very good thing you selectively reverted them, rather than just blindly reverted everything. &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Son of the Defender  04:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No, good faith edits aren't disruptive nor are rollbacks of disruptive edits. When someone makes a large number of improper edits all at once, the simplest thing to do is simply restore the old version and I wouldn't fault anyone for that.  But with trivia it's worth the extra few minutes to see if there is anything worth saving or not because 90% of all the content in trivia sections is usually useless.Wikidemo (talk) 19:41, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

It's too bad people choose to just delete content instead of fixing it. I know it's easier to delete...that's plain enough, but some effort needs to be put into improving articles by integrating content that belongs. No doubt, some content needs to go but it's a little lazy to just delete everything unilaterally. Put a little work into it and you end up with a better article, which is why we're here! RxS (talk) 18:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * So we've got a red-linked user, brand new on February 5th, and his first activity is to immediately start to whack trivia lists. Sounds like hosiery of some kind, eh? Aside from that, the meataxe approach contributes nothing. It's the lazy way, the "I don't like it so no one else can have it" attitude. Because actually working on the articles would require a time investment and would not be nearly as much fun as chopping. I feel like I'm repeating myself here. Oh, yeh... words like or similar to what I said about the now-banned user called Burntsauce, whose attitude and approach were similar (though maybe not identical) to this current red-linked user. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 20:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's worth pointing out to Mr. Redlink that the reason Burntsauce was banned was not because he deleted trivia lists, as such, but because he didn't care what anyone else thought about it and wouldn't take any corrective action to work with the wikipedia community. And Mr. Redlink's most recent edit as of this writing does not look encouraging in that regard either, with its "I'm right and everybody else is wrong" stance. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 20:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * He's already been warned, so the above is overkill, as of the moment. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 20:31, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Just so we're clear... yes, trivia sections should be dealt with... with a scalpel, not a meataxe. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 20:33, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Swatjester, removing large blocks of material deliberately on the basis of ones personal opinion about content without prior discussion is vandalism; that is not the way toward cooperative editing and is destructive of the encyclopedia. (As you say, the same would apply to similarly reckless additions--and we revert them as spam with hesitation, and block for them to prevent further damage). Vandalism can be reverted. If one doesnt think it vandalism, then it's B as the first step in BRD, and the second step is R. Either way, BB would have been fully justified in just reverting back these deletions, and suggesting that if it were constructively intended, they be done more reasonably.  I'm not all that happy with the entire principle of BRD, which i think leads to just this sort of problem, but if B is justified, so is R, as a necessary part of it. The rule does not read BD.   The Bold may be necessary to provoke the discussion, and the R shows it is not obvious, and lets the discussion proceed in a hopefully peaceful spirit. Its the subsequent insistence of repeating opposed Bold moves that turns it into edit warring.  The plain meaning of  "It's a very good thing you ... " is as an attempt at intimidation. DGG (talk) 06:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No, editing pages with the intent of damaging Wikipedia is vandalism, editing pages because one believes that they should be one particular way and disagreeing with everyone else is disruptive and/or tendentious editing. Neither is acceptable, but calling good faith but disruptive editing vandalism is not an assumption of good faith, and tends to engender bad faith in the person you accuse of being a vandal. I am also of the belief that while "In popular culture" sections are bad, but that wholesale deletion of such sections just because they include a "referenced in Family Guy, South Park or the Simpsons" entry is a bad way to go about it (personally, I'd like to see an external PopCultureWiki developed that houses these sections, since it is occasionally interesting to read them even if they're not encyclopedic). Confusing Manifestation (Say hi!) 01:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That's the best idea I've heard all day. Just as there is a separate wikisource and wikiquotes (the latter filled with unattributed stuff), there could be a wikitrivia, and then the stuff that's either questionable or "unencyclopedic" could be moved there, and then theoretically everyone would be happy. What would it take to get something like that going? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 14:20, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I vote we call it 'WikiPop'! We could then port over the WikiPop deletionist editors' versions to yet another version, called 'DietWikiPop'! (end humor.) ThuranX (talk) 14:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I also think this is a superb idea. I would totally contribute there.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 14:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Nihil novi on Spiritualism
I want to flag up a persistent pattern of reversion by Nihil novi on the Spiritualism topic. ,, , ,.

As one proponent in the development of the page, I am doing in an attempt to "do the right thing" and out of a wish to avoid flaming any further fires by dropping vandalism or WP:3RR warning on an other editors' talk pages.

I am perfectly happy for material to be removed from the topic that others do not feel is supported by the references and citations provided. I am cognizant of the relative policies and need for consensus but I have made the point that if they wish to remove offending content, they can do so with reverting entirely good reference formating [ ], improved images, or  versus  and layouts. Indeed, the removal of the Feminist, Abolitionists or religious principles sections is being done with any discussion and that where references were requested for Post-WWII section they were provided.

My feeling is that this a particular situation is being contrived with two or more editors performing identical and total revisions as a provocation, e.g.; Nihil novi and Anthon.Eff, etc and that the reverting have now become "personal" rather than topic related. There can be no rational reason for removing formatted references, improved images etc.

I offer that the edits I have done stand as good and I would appreciate practical assistance in this matter as it has gone beyond a mere content issue. --Lucyintheskywithdada (talk) 12:06, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * A quick response. User:Lucyintheskywithdada is doubling the size of the article with one edit, in the process removing preexisting text and images. Concerns have been raised that she has copied and pasted material verbatim from websites (if interested, here's where she was told), and that her "sources" don't say the things she claims they say (some discussion of that here). She has therefore been asked to bring in a little new material at a time, to give us a chance to build consensus, both with regard to her additions and her deletions. So far, she's not listening. --Anthon.Eff (talk) 18:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Anthon is the other party engaged in persistent reversions not just on this page but also over the mass deletion of an infobox from every page it was on. An infobox which he referred for deletion and which failed and so he responded by repeatedly removing every example of it. See 31 Jan to 2 Feb.


 * Anthon refers to a paraphrased section of a book I quoted ON A TALK PAGE to support the use of the term spiritualism in philosophy as having an entirely different use. (This has since been accepted and included in a disambiguation page).


 * Anthon repeats what he knows not to be true, as we discussed this before, by suggesting that it "came from a website" he found. An assertion I have clarified for him in discussion ... . I took it from a copy of the book, hence the paraphrasing. What he seeks to do here is avoid reference to the fact that the quote entirely contradicted his assertion of the lack of connection between spiritualism and E. B. Tylor.


 * I want to underline that, in essence, the issue here is of WP:BIAS with two or three editors wishing to pursue the generic term in use for the American movement only. I gave the example of the Football page but no one seemed to want to discuss it. Only two editors, Anthon and I formally discussion in move on the proper admin move page. --Lucyintheskywithdada (talk) 10:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

BetacommandBot is malfunctioning again
This discussion has been moved to Administrators' noticeboard/Betacommand. 15:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

BetaCommandBot and NFCC10c - New discussion page
This discussion has been moved to Administrators' noticeboard/Betacommand. 15:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Block review
Since this is my first block, I want to make sure I did it per protoccol. I've blocked for 24 hours as he's fresh off a block for disruptive editing and started blanking pages  and  and removing tags he's the subject of  and. Of course, if I was worng, feel free to unblock.  MBisanz  talk 15:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I added my $.02 on the above thread about Bamford, however this comment here makes me wonder if 24 hours wasn't long enough. Good catch those for at least the 24 hours, some cooling off is definitely needed, especially with being warned about the removal of the COI tag. Wildthing61476 (talk) 15:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * (ec) Support block. I suggest to anyone else reviewing this to have a read through his talk page, and a look at his contribution history.  He's also made a specific threat to evade any block using different IPs .  We don't need this kind of hostile, disruptive editor here.  Antandrus  (talk) 15:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yea, over at COIN, we've caught him or meatpuppets using over 30 different IP addresses. I'm beginning to wondering if this isn't a long-term abuser whose figured out how to spoof an NPIA IP address.  MBisanz  talk 15:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd have blocked at least 72 hours. The short ones seem to have no effect. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 16:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why we WP:AGF with people who are obviously just here to make trouble. This should have been indef IMHO. JuJube (talk) 18:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'll keep that in mind and will try to be around tomorrow when the block comes off to watch things. My rationale was that if he is associated with a semi-governmental law enforcement body (what WHOIS said), we really don't ned them getting mad at wikipedia.  But he's obviously used up his good faith and hopefully knows it by now.  MBisanz  talk 01:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

His block is over in a bit over five hours. He's made quite a mess of his talk page; it's rather bizarre. If he goes at it again, I say block him for a week and blank the talk page except for a fresh note and then protect it. Cheers, Jack Merridew 11:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Mattisse
User:Mattisse continues to attribute to me actions I've never done, attitudes I've never had, and opinions I never held or voiced. Her behaviour has escalated over the last two weeks. It seems like she is either unable or unwilling to check edit histories, and instead holds me reponsible as a scapegoat for any activity she disapproves of in the vicinity of the article Uvs Nuur, no matter who actually did what. A listing of the diffs disproving her numerous false accusations would fill several pages by now, but can be provided if necessary.

Her crusade began after I reverted two of her changes to Uvs Nuur (change a, revert a, change b bordering on vandalism, revert b). Before the second revert, I initiated a conversation on her talk page. Although I basically agreed with her intention to split the information about the Uvs Nuur basin from the lake Uvs Nuur, her responses turned increasingly hostile and accusatory, blaming me for a merge that another user had performed a year ago among other things. Other editors tried to explain to her what had really happened, which eventually resulted in an apology, which I accepted. Unfortunately, her false accusations didn't stop after that. After a while she even retracted her apology, for reason that in reality I had nothing at all to do with. She kept accusing me of "unilateral actions" that either other people were responsible for or that never even happened.

After all normal reasoning didn't result in any change, I formally warned her to stop the badmouthing. in her responses, she didn't seem to understand the problem, and tried to present herself as the victim. Other editors tried to talk sense into her, but without success. Caught in her assumed role as the "innocent victim", she continued to attack me with unsubstantiated accusations. At the same time, she announced she would leave the topic for others to edit, even though nobody had asked her to do that.

A number of editors have participated in editing the related articles recently. That activity also triggered some content disputes. I am not directly involved in those content disputes myself, mainly because I haven't formed a final opinion yet on the matters involved. Other than adding some information on the lake, I've primarily done minor formal edits to the related articles. Most of what I did in the respective discussions was to ask questions. The latest episode of those debates has evolved on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Central Asia. This discussion was overshadowed by an independent user conduct conflict between two other editors. When I tried to get the discussion back on topic, Mattisse took that as an opportunity to attack me once more, as if the uncivil behaviour of another editor had been mine.

Although I have no idea what Mattisse is trying to accomplish with all that hostility, I don't see any sign of her stopping any time soon. After I and several other editors have exhausted our good will in trying to talk with her, I have now finally to ask for admin support. Sorry for the lengthy explanations, and thanks for any constructive ideas. --Latebird (talk) 16:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've interacted with Mattisse on occasions prior to this event (which I have no knowledge of) - I don't mean to come to an assumed position where I am "protecting" her, but in consideration of the much effort you've already put into this statement, could you provide some diffs for the turning responses which were becoming "...increasingly hostile and accusatory, blaming me for a merge that another user had performed a year ago among other things". I know this case is already pretty apparent, but would appreciate some further diffs for clarification, even though we have a sufficient amount of other arguments being presented here, the additional elements can help for the conclusion. Thank you. Rudget . 17:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Her user talk page below our initial conversation contains a sizeable chunk of that stuff. Interestingly, in her very first response, she already suggested to "have an RFC over it" (over naming questions that I wasn't actually interested in at that time). In my next contribution I stated that I'd support a split of the topics. A little later she claimed "I see you have merged many articles I wrote", which is utter nonsense. It just went downhill from there. Other relevant discussions can be found at the following locations:
 * Talk:Uvs Nuur
 * Talk:Uvs Nuur Basin
 * Talk:Ubsunur Hollow Biosphere Reserve
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Central Asia (starting here)
 * my user page (specifically: User Talk:Latebird)
 * Fortunately, most of the article talk pages (and article edit histories) are not very long, so that it's relatively easy to find most evidence. But of course, I'll be happy to provide other diffs as required to clear up specific questions. --Latebird (talk) 18:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not all are sure what it is you're asking for. The options which appear open to me are Requests for comment, Third opinion, Wikiquette alerts, and maybe Mediation Committee. The editor appears to have an opinion, perhaps based on some evidence, perhaps not, and seems to be regularly insulting you. Some of the insults might qualify as personal attacks, some might not, but I'm far from certain that anyone would block her on the basis of them alone. John Carter (talk) 18:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Dear John Carter, while your comments may look reasonably neutral on the surface, I still suggest that you leave this issue to other admins, who haven't also recently insulted me. --Latebird (talk) 19:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I asked you a reasonable question about what you wanted to see done. You chose to respond with a completely off-topic snide remark, which was the result of your own irrational and summarily closed request for deletion of several pages because you were "pissed off" at their existence for no acceptable reason, despite having been told in advance that your original basis for complaint was not a valid one. I realize you may have some difficulty in general in assuming good faith, but you still haven't indicated what you seek to gain from your own posting here. The options I indicated are, basically, the only ones available barring some specific outside intervention for cause. Are you indicating that you see some specific cause for action from an administrator? Please respond directly to the question, so that people can know what it is you are seeking to achieve by posting here. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 20:19, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The purpose of a report here is to bring an issue to the attention of administrators, both to get their opinions and possibly their assistance. Then, out of more than a thousand at least theoretically available admins, the single one who was recently involved in a conflict with me and has explicitly stated to hold a low opinion of me, enters the stage and gives the appearance of trying to help. Independently of any assumptions of faith or any potential grudges, just plain common sense tells me that this is not a good idea. In the interest of avoiding even the appearance of a conflict of interest on your side, I ask you again to stay away from this issue. If another admin needs help in understanding the purpose of ANI, I'm sure they'll let me know. --Latebird (talk) 06:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow, this does not surprise me. I knew Mattisse would eventually push someone to the point where they would have to come here to settle a dispute. What you, User:Latebird, described about her attributing edits to people who never made them is exactly what she did to me on the talk page for Chinese architecture. Have a look. As to her playing the role of the "innocent victim" in talk page disputes, look to her several-month-long quibble with User:PalaceGuard008. I've noticed she has a bizarre habit of accusing people on talk pages for articles of a certain topic, playing the "victim" while everyone else is out to own and destroy articles she is interested in, and then shifting on to a completely different subject where she unfortunately repeats the process. Just my 2 cents on the matter in order to give wider context.-- Pericles of Athens  <font color="#0000CD">Talk 08:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree with Pericles. I tried once to get involved and all I got a page-long complaint, then when I first attempted to assist, a complete striking out of the whole thing and a "looks like everyone is going to attack me so I'll go do something else."  This is just her habit, and as I've learned, you just accept it or others will attack you for picking on her.  You just have to accept that being passive-aggressive tends to actually work in this environment, so I'd suggest a detailed timeline of diffs, Latebird, to make it harder for others to complain about you being too thin-skinned.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Set expiry date on protection of Association of Members' Advocates and Esperanza
I originally posted a request at Village_pump_%28miscellaneous%29, thinking that this needed community consensus. But after looking again at Page_protection, this seems to me like a clear-cut issue of policy application. An expiry date needs to be set on protection of these pages. Ron Duvall (talk) 18:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * aside from arguing process, is there a reason you want the protection altered? Spartaz Humbug! 18:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I am also concerned for the reasons listed in Protected pages considered harmful. And the language currently on the Esperanza page, "This essay serves as a warning to all editors that existing projects must be open and transparent to all editors at all times, not to be overly hierarchical lest they are to meet a fate similar to Esperanza's" seems like uncalled-for obiter dictum that should be edited out, although that is a separate issue from page protection. Ron Duvall (talk) 18:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Er, please lets not rehash the esperanza deletion debates. I can't see any benefit of restarting the arguments and the reason why it was shut down is nicely captured by the wording of that essay. There is no good going to come from trying to rewrite history after all this time. I'd say you need to get consensus to rewrite the essay before trying to get the page unlocked. Spartaz Humbug! 18:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The page goes beyond saying why it was shut down to warn that if people start something like it, their project will get deleted too. I don't propose getting in an edit war over the content but permanent protection is not allowed for content disputes. The standard process, even with sometimes-contentious pages like policy and guidelines, and certainly with essays (which is what Esperanza purports to be), is to allow users to be bold (within reason), experiment with tweaks in wording, and work things out on the talk page as necessary. Ron Duvall (talk) 18:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Its not a content dispute. Its a locked page that we don't need any more drama over. Spartaz Humbug! 19:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * So basically you are saying we should apply WP:IAR in this instance? Ron Duvall (talk) 19:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No that's not what I'm saying. There is a community consensus to leave things as they are. If you want to change the page you need to change the community consensus first. Spartaz Humbug! 19:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What about CONSENSUS? "Consensus decisions in specific cases are not expected to override consensus on a wider scale very quickly - for instance, a local debate on a WikiProject does not override the larger consensus behind a policy or guideline. The project cannot decide that for 'their' articles, said policy does not apply." Why should the consensus expressed in the MfD override the larger consensus behind the policy that protection is only to be temporary, with an expiration date? Interestingly, neither of those two project pages are listed at our "list of pages that are permanently protected or semi-protected, in line with the protection policy." Maybe it's because their permanent protection was not in line with our protection policy. Ron Duvall (talk) 19:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I would only comment that the Association of Members' Advocates may have been substantially replaced by WikiProject Accessibility. Maybe it could be turned into a redirect there? John Carter (talk) 18:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * They don't seem to be that similar and there are so many internal links to ama that I would be very loath to endorse a redirect. Spartaz Humbug! 18:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Concur - wikiproject accessibility seems to be trying to improve the project - let's not make any suggested link between their good works and the vile waste of space that project:wikilawyer was. --Fredrick day (talk) 18:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I see no reason why an editor would need to change the esperanza page, the community consensus on this matter was very clear and no good reason has been presented to revisit the matter. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Given the extensive warring that occurred over these two, I would say the appropriate date for protection to expire is three days after the fifth of never. I also wonder about a new user raising this topic.  What was your old account, Ron?  Guy (Help!) 20:19, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree-ish. It is not the case that all protections should usually have an expiration date.  Quite a few pages are permanently protected.  Merkinsmum  21:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Really? You mean, not just deleted and salted against re-creation, but we actually protect them and put up a notice like that? What's an example? Ron Duvall (talk) 22:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I thought there were lol, the one I meant seems to have been unprotected, I bet there are some, though. I don't see why you want this unprotected, except you want to remove the statement thing at the top.  But it all reads as very ironic in the light of recent debates about the wikipedia IRC channel :)  Perhaps just ask for the bit at the top to be removed, as you would ask for a change on any protected page? Is it not NPOV, what's written there?  Looks like it. It just says the concerns people had about it.   Merkinsmum  23:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

(un-indent) From Protected pages considered harmful, "What about theoretically already calm third parties who will be turned off by the inability to edit?" (That would be me; I was not involved with Esperanza at all but I'm considered about the impact of that notice on freedom of association here in general. I realize we do not have rights here other than the right to leave and the right to fork, but as a practical matter, it is useful to extend freedom of association for non-disruptive purposes. Arguably, the disruption from Esperanza may have been caused primarily by people freaking out about it; and accordingly we reward the fomenters of wiki-drama by letting them successfully use the drama they caused as an excuse to delete a project?) Other disadvantages of protection listed: "Difficulty of editing; Legitimate community policy changes, and even minor spelling corrections and linking, have to be mediated through sysops; If there is low sysop interest in some page, requests may not be noticed (sysops as bottleneck)" all of which represent a disruption of the normal WP:BRD process. The WP:AMA statement seems fine to me (although I favor eventual unprotection because policy requires it and because of those protection disadvantages listed above) but the Esperanza one should just provide the information given in the first couple paragraphs and briefly explain the reason why it was deleted, rather than saying that it's a warning to others not to do something like this. It's the wrong place for such directives. Ron Duvall (talk) 00:25, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The issue is that the community has largely agreed that AMA and Esperanza were harmful to the community and should not be recreated. Granted, the wording is POV against the projects, but it's projectspace and the community consensus is against the organizations anyway. Why would the wording need to be changed? Unlocking it just invites more drama over the /precise/ wording when that drama is un-needed. (Personally, I'd rather not drag through AMA again). <b style="color:#c22">^</b><b style="color:#000">demon</b><sup style="color:#c22">[omg plz] <em style="font-size:10px;">02:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And if anyone genuinely believes the wording to be a problem there is always editprotected. Regardless, the long history of bitter dispute is a powerful argument for leaving this closed at a point where most people (I'd have said all, but then we had this pop up) have moved on. Guy (Help!) 12:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Mctrain
McTrain currently blocked due to unacceptable over-reaction, everyone encouraged to use a term like "functionally unverifiable" or something similar instead of hoax, since it is clearly causing McTrain to go completely overboard.

This fellow has gone off the deep end—ranting at Articles for deletion/Grace Talarico di Capace‎ and on users' talk pages, removing valid tags from unlicensed images here and here, etc.—to say nothing of the damage that he's been doing to the article Barbaro family in this and previous guises. Can he be stopped, at least for a while, to give others some peace? Deor (talk) 18:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Untrue, nonsense, all of my good work is being destroyed because of a belief in a hoax that does not exist. I proved to Deor early on about Vitus as being a real person in www.avoision.com, and you can go to Deor's talk page and get the details on that, details which he choses to gloss over becasue it meant people who wanted to say that he wasn't a real life person, were in fact wrong. I even consulted with Deor early on on his talk page under "please advise" in fear that any work on that particular article was going to be deemed as a hoax- and what has happened exectly that, as it has for any person of good faith working on that topic. Now, Thorp Academy has been flagged, for no good reason, just becaus I worked on that too- give me a break- you people shout hoax, destroy good work that took days and weeks to build, and then you expect people to just be happy with what you did to their work. You people lie, set up arguments that are not based on fact, slander peoples reputation and then don't even have the class to make things right after their work becomes flagged. I see, massive gross mistakes on Wikipedia, attributing families to other families, etc.- but this one topic always gets picked on- enough is enough. Wikipedia is no longer a joy to be involved in, and if Deor can't be fair enough to correct all of the damgae that he created by perpetuating the hoax stupidity- I am gone for good, as have many others before. I have proven that the so called hoax person is in fact very real person, not a hoax at all, and I have also proven that there were  people out there who wanted to play games with him by the very crude comments that were made about a very innocent person on www.avoision.com- the source of where all of this hoax garbage started.Mctrain (talk) 19:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I left the user a note to calm down and approach this calmly, but as you can see, it's not working well. As for the 'hoax' charge, I don't think that's true at all, but it's really riling this user up, and he's playing right into a block for incivility and a cooldown. Not a good situation. ThuranX (talk) 20:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

All edits to Barbaro family and any associated articles must be very carefully examined due to the history of hoaxing surrounding this and other related articles. <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix talk  20:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't read the signatures on Image:Gilbert Julian Snowbirds Seriograph.JPG‎ and Image:Gilbert Julian Riverboat lithograph.JPG‎, but they sure don't look like they read "Gilbert Julian" to me. Plus, Mctrain repeatedly removes a request for copyright information from the two image pages, claiming that the claim that they are owned by the artist's descendents is sufficient, despite the fact that there are watermarks on the images which clearly show that the images themselves were downloaded from an ebay sale.  <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix  talk  20:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have removed the Fulco Ruffo di Calabria information from Skull and crossbones because two of the links are dead and one is not reliable. <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix  talk  20:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The Gilbert images were put up by the "Joel Gilbert archives" themselves, go check, and people question the images authenticity?. I said many times that if you just search "Ruffo di Calabria skull" you will have your pick of many refrences to chose from that talks about his symbol-and this is what I mean, no matter what anyone does, no matter what anyone proves- a culture of a hoax mentality will continue to exist on wikipedia- and that is proven time and time again. That is why I will not participate with Wikipedia any longer, it is just a waste of time. Final closing remarks.Mctrain (talk) 20:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The links you provided for your claims were not reliable, don't tell other people to go search for reliable links for the claims you make, that's your responsibility. <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix  talk  20:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that the links weren't working right when I put them in, but I can fix it. All of my work doesn't have to be removed and flagged and everything else that is going on. In any normal situation if there is a problem, one just puts a citation notice- not removal and everything elese that is happening. Things that you know, as well as I, that are only occurring because of some supposed hoax with Vitus. A hoax that only started because people saw his name in www.avoision.com when he posted to take on his title, which is normal. Then they found him in Wikipedia and chose to make him a traget for placement in bogus articles. The guy is proven to be real- and is and was always innocent, and I discussed everything with Deor pior to any work in that area, to avoid just this situation.Mctrain (talk) 21:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Admin eye needed at Grace Talarico di Capace's AfD which is rapidly spiraling out of control between Deor, Mctrain and their meatpuppets. his meatpuppets. I was about to come file that here when I saw this thread. Can someone rein it in? Travellingcari (talk) 23:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "Their" meatpuppets? So anybody who agrees with Deor is a meatpuppet?  I would also like to mention that Mctrain has removed the AfD tag from the article, and has removed the puidisputed tags from the image pages above.  <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix  talk  00:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * struck it, someone's meat puppets. Kids? I can't tell to say the least since the AfD has turned into their war over another article or two. Since it takes two to have an argument, I blame them both, but struck the 'their' since I'm not sure whose meatpuppets they are but the AfD is a disaster at the moment. I am a disinterested party who was reading today's AfD log and thought it could use some help. Travellingcari (talk) 00:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You haven't read it very carefully, then, apparently, since the only people who think this hoax should stick around are Mctrain, his sockpuppets (who he claims are his daughters), and ThuranX, who has apparently not read the nomination very carefully. There are no reliable sources.  The person does not exist in any Google searches I can find, except for the name of a Chicago-area realtor.  There are no references to any of the supposed other members of the family that appear to be reliable, although there are some Italian refrences which I can't read, so I don't know if they're any good or not.  But look into the history of the Vitus Barbaro hoax and the Barbaro family hoaxing and the Fenwick High School (Chicago, Illinois) hoaxing (as well as the Pugalist Club (sic) hoax and the The Sacred Order of Skull and Crescent hoax).  Its hard to keep assuming good faith considering this history.  <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix  talk  00:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There is no hoax with anything that I have written- why do you keep saying that lie! How can also Vitus be a hoax when I have also proved to you his existence by www.avoision.com, and how can you also gloss over the four letter words used to talk about him in that source, isn't quite clear that someone was out to play a prank with the guy when they found him listed in wikipedia, they found his name referenced in a legit wikipedia articles and placed him into a bogus one. You are the guys that probably ruined the Fenwick High School articles yourself. This sacred order of skull and crescent sounds like stupidity, and that is where your hoax garbage is probably coming from, his name was probably plunked into some bogus page- the guy is real, and the work I done is correct- also, what is this focus with this Vitus dude anyway, he is not listed in any of the articles I worked on. This is all stupidity, moreover, check every source I gave, what I wrote is in the sources, so whats all this BS. irrational fears on your part, do not constitute a hoaxMctrain (talk) 01:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you may be misunderstanding me. I !voted delete due to a lack of sourcing. I don't know the life story of the hoax, but I didn't think this article was notable.My issue with the AfD is it's an absolute mess right now and consensus can't come from something that can't be read. Mctrain is responding to himself in several places. It seems clear the subject is nn, but that doesn't mean the AfD can't have an eye at it -- plus it broke the formatting of the day's deletion log due to the headers in it. That's what I was talking about. Travellingcari (talk) 00:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but you said that Deor is equally at fault, and I strongly disagree with that. <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix  talk  00:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've reviewed Deor's contributions up to now, and I disagree as well. Deor is acting rationally and appropriately.  Travellingcari, could you have another look at the (admittedly messy) situation, and consider revising your apportionment of the blame here?  Darkspots (talk) 02:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I struck it. I still think it takes two to argue and while it's 99% Mctrain flooding it, I think responding is encouraging him. I wasn't around for the start of this so I don't know the full history between the two. Deor is clearly more in the right but I still think something needs to be done to fix the mess that is that AfD, and spilling here per Mctrain's comments in the middle of this discussion. At this point it's going to spiral for five days? At least it seems a clear case for WP:SNOW to get the issue taken elsewhere and off the AfD log, which now has a few more headers to break the whole log. Travellingcari (talk) 02:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Let's examine the arguement

Ok, Deor is right for having an unfair prejudice in his mind about certain topics being "hoaxes", and all of my good work is punished because I happen to unknowingly be interested in these similar "taboo" topics- even though I have no record of hoaxing, a stronmg commitment of editing on Wikipedia, and have written with full creditable sourcing- but that makes me guilty of hoaxing- or my good work deserving to be destroyed, flagged etc. So I guess if anyone ever writes about these topics, they are going to be labled hoaxers automatically- which in fact is what has happened when you check the back log, I have, do you know how many good editors by people like Deor and Gustave and Corvus and Gianno etc. have been labeling peole as hoaxers because they are interested in these topics. Why does Corvus keep flagging the images to the Julian Gilbert page for deleation, when it was even the joel gilbert group themselves that posted it with full rights into the public domain to be used- why was half of all of this stupidity and lies being perpertuated- because these guys want to perpertuate hoaxes. Now you tell me, how a person who is a baroness of Alaric, linked to the fashion house of pucci with interelation to other noteworthy fashion groups is not deserving of an article on Wikipedidia- Bull Shit! this page would never be an issue, if these guys like Deor and their meatpuppets didn't already have prejudices of hoaxes in their mind- and nothing more. I saw the House of Borghese page that has two people on there listed as being of significance to the Borghese family that are not even y related, and we have Vitus, the real deal, being picked on, because someone up and decided to use his name in a bogus secret order whatever BS society article- what is the justice in that. The article I have worked on has better sourcing than most anything that I have scene on Wiki. This is all BS. The whole premise to this page is BS, she is sourced in those sources listed. This whole witch hunt is BS. And every editor that has experienced this injustice has wlaked away angry and HATING WIKIPEDIA. YOU ARE ALL TO BELAME FOR THAT, and no one else. A person writes an article with perfectly good sources and that is not enough becuse you have hoax issues and prejudice- a therapist can help you deal with that. you say that Vitus doesn't exist, he is proven to exist, and then you try find another avenue to justify destruction of good work that took hours and research to put together. It is not right and you are all to belame, GO TO HELL  Mctrain (talk) 02:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I find nothing in Google for the existence of a "Joel Gilbert Group". And even if there were, there is nothing to prove that the person who uploaded the images had the rights to the images.  You keep avoiding the question as to why the images are watermarked with the mark of the person who is selling them on ebay, and who is not the "Joel Gilbert Group".  <font face="Arial"> Corvus cornix  talk  03:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

First of joel gilbert is Joel Gilbert- as for ebay I have no idea what you are talking about. The single person that has fueled my interst in this topic is the artist julian gilbert, of which I became interested about Grace and her family through him because she is talked about and her family in the bio listing of her portrait. That is why I wrote about Gilbert and Thorp etc. She was talked about in the catalogue, and then I did some additional research in to it more- i'm into art. And why don't you go send a message to joel who put the images up- I wasn't the one who did that- I just hate seeing the images destroyed- Why don't you get off of my case and leave my good work alone and go pick on that crappy House of Borghese article or something else to focus your hoax theories on, that  borghese crap has no real sources and at least two people that are clearly not related, not to mention lorenzo who is a shame, while Vitus is listed as completely the real deal in my sources- but I guess in Amerca, fame and google searches is what counts, not listings in creditable, and official sources- enough- life is too short to deal with what began on nothing more than a BS premise and a witch hunt. Mctrain (talk) 03:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I've been viewing the development of this thread with some interest. Does, perhaps, finally merit administrator attention? Deor (talk) 15:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

LET"S ALSO TALK ABOUT ALL OF THIS BS HOAX GARBAGE

I just got a message from ThuranX that also said I was a hoaxer, What BS!!! All of this stupid hoax trash is pertaining to some some BS frat group, Sacred Order Skull Society that used Vitus' name as their head- is that not the truth where all of this started- of course it is! Then, the society is proven to be BS, and every reference that Vitus was attached to went through the grinder- did it not, of course it did, becuase Vitus was "Not Real", but he is very real, www.avoision.com proves that the guy exists- as well as strongly indicates where the hoaxing came from, these guys found his name in Wikiedpia in "LEGIT" articles and placed his name into a bogus frat article. Now you administrators target unfairly any artcle topic that has a correlation to Vitus,or you also love to target 65IP's, which is a general IP for Microsoft service, and you love to also pick apart everything unfairly, beyond the scope of reason. Why the hell was Thorp Academy attacked, you know why, becasue the topic has corellation to Vitus, why was Grace TdC and Julian Gilbert attacked, becasue it has correlation to Vitus, and no matter that sources check out, and info is cited from reputable sources- you still will always say that there is a hoax with Vitus. THERE IS NO HOAX WITH VITUS. Just his named was put into a BS frat article- when will you get that reality, the guy is proven to exist. I am sick and tired of anyone who is intersted in a topic of overlap is called a hoaxer- grow up!!!! What audacity you have to place belame and ruin people's reputations based on your own ignorance. You were the ones that went and trashed countless articles based on not even understanding what the nature of the hoax was, it was a BS frat society that was desperately looking for a cool figurehead to give their group some noteriety and found the name of Vitus that they could use- that is it, get over it- they guy and his family is real. Enough with the hoax BULL SHIT already.Mctrain (talk) 16:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bot is not marked as a bot?
There doesn't seem to be any bot involved or other intervention required. --Tikiwont (talk) 09:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Blofeld of SPECTRE appears to be a bot but it is not marked as one. What's the deal with this account? Gary King (talk) 20:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC) There have been bot requests for this: Bot_requests/Archive_16. Link to former AN/I thread: Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive362. Gimmetrow 21:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * we did this before. Its just an extremely productive editor iirc. Spartaz Humbug! 20:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * We had the discussion about a fortnight ago; it is not a bot, but way more productive than I can ever be. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Productive, terribly prolific, whatever adjective you want to use. Not sure why it was confused for a bot though. Even people can be formulaic or robotic. The individual was creating articles about communes and towns that were obviously missing from wikipedia. <font color="#660000">Wisdom89  ( <font color="#17001E">T |undefined /  <font color="#17001E">C ) 20:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * BEEP DOES NOT COMPUTE --Haemo (talk) 23:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

What makes every last village in France notable? Last I checked, WP is not a directory. rudra (talk) 23:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * How can a town, village, or any other location where people actually reside fail notability? <font color="#660000">Wisdom89  ( <font color="#17001E">T |undefined /  <font color="#17001E">C ) 00:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The notability of villages in France has been discussed before, at ArbCom, who agreed to it. Evidently, they are, I dunno why. And I can attest that Blofeld is not a bot. He is just an editor whose total edits have passed 100,000, including a lot of images, and an extremely productive editor. He decided to create articles on villages in France, for whatever reason, and he did so. If I could prove they weren't notable, I probably would, but I can't. He might not be the only editor who has had many of his edits of strikingly similar phrasing. I have too. And we're not the same person, trust me on this. You aren't tied to MI6 at all, are you? :) John Carter (talk) 23:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I can attest that Blofeld of SPECTRE has a sense of humour, or at a minimum, is programmed to display what appears to be a sense of humour. If you wish to enquire further, I suggest posting a Turing test on his/her/its talkpage. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I happen to be lightening quick. The fastest editor on here. Infoboxes will be added later and translated from French. Basically I am half way through putting 36,000 new French articles on wikipedia to develop and I should be thanked. Notability is without question if you saw these places you;d realise you could actually write many articles on places within the towns. Fast forward a year or two and theres no reason why most of these stubs can't become decent articles. As for a robot, I must be the least robotic person on here. <font style="color:#fef;background:black;">♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦     <font size="-4"><font color="Black">$1,000,000? 00:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

If ArbCom has opined that WP is a directory, then ArbCom has lost its way. rudra (talk) 00:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * They have not opined that. What they have said is that, basically, given the amount of information available out there on France, it is, basically, a given that each village, based on the virtual certainty of each village being written about in one or more WP:RS-qualifying newspapers in France often enough to establish notability, as well as any number of French tour guide books, that it is a moot point. Yes, probably the same thing could be said about towns in the US, UK, Canada, and anywhere else in Europe. And, if in time the notability is not established, then it will be possible to nominate the articles for deletion individually. However, there is no reason to believe that they have said it is a "directory", and that actually is a bit of a misrepresentation. When several of these articles were being suggested for speedy deletion, Blofeld appealed to ArbCom, presented his reason for saying they were notable, and his arguments were accepted. Could this flood us with a lot of bad articles if the pattern is followed elsewhere? Very easily. But our policy WP:PAPER indicates that we should not worry about whether the articles will be long enough before they're given a chance to be developed. Otherwise, about half the articles we do have would have been deleted by now. John Carter (talk) 00:18, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Does Ottrott look like a directory. Have some sense. They are being blue linked en masse ready to build full content on <font style="color:#fef;background:black;">♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦      <font size="-4"><font color="Black">$1,000,000? 00:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * See Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive362, we've done this before. Tim Vickers (talk) 00:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Normally I wouldn't evne think about not adding some facts but because of the sheer amount missing it is quicker to ge them up and running to develop first. I'm more than half the way through now <font style="color:#fef;background:black;">♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦      <font size="-4"><font color="Black">$1,000,000? 00:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC).

OK prime example. A typical "directorial" stub like Albas, Lot. Now see this, the French equivalent and tell me wikipedia wouldn't benefit from 30,000 new articles in english like this <font style="color:#fef;background:black;">♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦      <font size="-4"><font color="Black">$1,000,000? 00:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Will the next project be every last street in France? (After all, people live on them, so how can that not be, um, notable?) rudra (talk) 03:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see much point in creating such bare stubs as Albas, Lot. Why not slow down and do a decent job?


 * I'm doing something similar to you at the moment, making sure that every settlement in New Zealand large enough to have a primary school has an article. At the moment I'm writing one or two articles a day. Today, I wrote Aranga, New Zealand, and I significantly expanded Tangiteroria. Neither are good articles - the first is somewhere on the cusp between a stub and a start-class article, and the second is a little more meaty but I haven't bothered to fix up the poor quality prose that was already there. However, these are useful articles for an encyclopedia to have. Albas could as easily be created at the time someone is ready to spend some time adding content to it.- gadfium 06:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Most creative use of a thesaurus in a post?
You gotta love this guy's use of adjectives not sure whether it should be viewed as a personal attack..what do other folks think? cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Those words reflect accusations of bitching, whining and moaning. I would label it as uncivil. Personal attack? The user is definitely treading the border. I would take offense to such "adjectives". The user is also acting pretentious for even bothering to use those words. <font color="#660000">Wisdom89  ( <font color="#17001E">T |undefined /  <font color="#17001E">C ) 20:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, umm... I don't like it. It's unlikeable, deplorable, belated, encrusted, bejesused, detrimented, and xenophobic. It is however incidental, occasional, decapitated, rejuvenated, ambiguous, pansexual, accelerated, and altruistic. I would not be opposed to describing him as stingy, cleansed, adamantine, fallacious, erudite, descriptive, infertile, and a whole other mess of adjectives that have nothing to do with him (I don't own a thesaurus. those are just big words I know). <font color="Black">Jus <font color="Red">tin  (c)(u) 20:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you kidding! It's a linguist's dream come true. — Zerida <font color="RoyalBlue"> ☥ 23:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Clearly someone in the 1800s has devised a time machine for the express purpose of coming to the 21st century to insult Wikipedia users. Genius! Editmaniac (talk) 09:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

User: Sarvagnya
This editor's obnoxious behavior towards several editors and articles is appalling and out of control, and needs to stop. It's steadily been escalating to a point that requests, warnings and alerts have not deterred the editor from changing his/her ways, even after a number of months.

The editor has made it a habit of being incivil with editors who make edits that he/she disagrees with. The editor has been requested and warned on several occasions. Once here, and on another occasion, I myself requested the editor to stop being so overly-critical of others contributions and start giving some recognition so that editors don't leave as a result of the unnecessary incivility (evidenced here). There are several other examples which can be found through this editor's talk page history (unfortunately, this editor has made it a habit to delete many of the comments on his/her page) and through some article talk pages where this editor has made comments.

However, he/she continues to resort to using a judgemental tone in edit summaries evidenced-here, assumes bad faith, is rude, calling others contributions names, and making it a priority to direct personal attacks at editors who do not support his/her edits and/or reasoning. The editor also forces others to the point of breaching civility without seeming to commit such a breach themselves. This can be seen as he/she scatters some valid points among an extensive attack on an article or on those who have contributed to it. This is evidenced especially here. Again, there are other examples, but i cite only this one as it was the final straw that prompted me to report such behavior. (On a separate note, he/she has also made other attacks on the article and its contributors over the last couple of years, and yet, in all this time, has made no actual positive contributions towards improving the article significantly. In stark contrast, the editors involved have made a major improvement from the nonsense it was to begin with.)

The editor uses mannerisms like 'I'm just obsessed with improving this article', 'This article is dear to me' and 'I am just as frustrated with the state of the article as you are', or the like, as a justification for the impolite, incivil and inconsiderate communications he/she uses, when really, such communications are unwarranted under any circumstance.

This editor in addition to often assuming bad faith, often assumes WP:OWN over the articles he/she concerns himself/herself with. He/she has vandalized articles (or blanked material without explanation), and when left a warning about it, has deliberately deleted the warning (seen here). Similarly, the editor removed a request (that an otherwise reasonable editor would have taken the time explain to the concerned editor who made the request) labeling it 'trolling' here. It is ironic that he/she expects reasoning from others, when he/she often fails to provide any when he/she makes edits or removals of information. He/she in effect thinks its justifiable to do anything as he/she sees fit, without any explanation to support it. For example, the editor has blanked out entire references in an article without properly explaining how or why the references are 'extremist' (as he/she indicates in his/her edit summary here), perhaps in an attempt to advance his/her position that content from this article should not be mentioned in another article, Carnatic music. Having deleted these references, the editor then goes one step further and adds tags that there are no references for the article here. In several other instances, editors have requested for some sort of explanation for his/her reverts and edit wars evidenced-here, but again, no explanation is given as he/she asserts WP:OWN over these articles. Similarly, when an editor has requested that he/she stop making derogatory statements, his/her reply involves telling the other editor to stop whining evidenced-here.

Shown here and here is the manner in which this editor has (consciously) chosen to interact with another editor recently, in response to being told to be more civil and assume good faith. This display (on another noticeboard) is yet another example of his/her hostility (or troll-like tendencies) and lack of regard or respect (as well as any sense of etiquette or civility) towards editors who disagree with him/her at Wikipedia.

This overall style of interaction between editors has resulted in driving away some contributors. Whether it is a lack of patience, or just a deliberate attempt to assume WP:OWN over certain articles he/she concerns himself/herself with, driving away editors is the direct opposite of a postive contribution. It is a serious issue that us editors have been forced to tolerate such incivility, disrespect and persistent assumption of bad faith by him/her, when it shouldn't be happening in the first place, (nor is it necessary).

For these reasons, I request that this editor be blocked for a period of time, both to prevent this happening again (until he/she cools off), and to make it clear that such behaviour is not tolerated at Wikipedia. This editor needs some time so that he/she can refresh his/her style of interacting with other editors (this would involve learning to show more respect for other editors contributions to Wikipedia, and also, learn to show more control over what he/she edits and how emotionally involved he/she gets in disputes). Warnings and requests have clearly not worked, and I, nor any other editor, wishes to stoop to the same obnoxious level as him/her, nor would any editor like to leave as a result of such obnoxious behaviour, or gaming of the system. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Huh! So, here is an ANI which is a result of content dispute from Carnatic Music.
 * Ncmvocalist, how did you conclude expressions such as 'I'm just obsessed with improving this article', 'This article is dear to me' and 'I am just as frustrated with the state of the article as you are', etc as " unwarranted under any circumstance" ? I do not see any logical reasoning why they are unwarranted under any circumstances.
 * Regarding removing the warning, I would like to see the policy which states not to remove the warning. On the other hand, Ncmvocalist has been templating the warnings on a user who has written almost a dozen FAs!
 * And again what is all this with this diff? Those tags are completely relevant to that article, and Sarvagnya has done a good job to that article by those tags. By addressing those tags, the article can only be improved further. Oh, yeah, I observed the previous diff given above, regarding extremist ref. Thats again a content dispute, and a prolonged discussion had happened tamilnation.org and other such sites.
 * And the plain allegations of assumption of bad faith is just reciprocative on Ncmvocalist's conduct here. Where is the assumption of good faith here? - KNM Talk 15:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Stop twisting my words out of the context in which they were used - such mannerisms are unwarranted (under any circumstance) as an excuse/justification for incivility. Civility is not an optional policy. Most editors feel the same way about Wikipedia articles in terms of how much they value them or care about them, yet, they are more than capable (and make it a habit) of interacting and behaving in a much more desirable, and appropriate manner, whether it is a content dispute, or just a basic discussion or edit summary.


 * Again, just because an editor has contributed to some FAs, does not mean that behavioural policies and standards of etiquette are optional.


 * By addressing those tags? If this editor was truely concerned about improving the article, he/she would've at least opened a topic on the article's talk and then would've been bold and begun actually improving the article rather than expecting others to do it after he/she has done quite the opposite to what existed. The same applies for several other articles. He/she has not been bold enough to add any noteworthy material. Tags don't automatically improve an article.


 * The assumption of good faith has been prevalent over this period of a couple of years, where such behaviour was not reported in the false hope that it would eventually change, as he/she had been reasonably alerted of his/her civility and behaviour. Yet, this hasn't happened, and it seems to continue to escalate out of control rather than improve, which is why I've reported it now. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:59, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I've added one other para to the original incident report, above. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I've just taken this out of the archives as it has not been resolved. The editor has clearly refused to respond here, even after being informed on his/her talk page. I request that appropriate action is taken against the editor. Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I regret to say that, based on the above and my own limited knowledge of these matters, what seems to be the case here may not be necessarily one which is best resolved here. I do certainly think that maybe a User RfC and/or Wikiquette alerts might be in order however. Then, there might be other actions taken thereafter as well. But I'm not sure that there have necessarily been such obvious breaches of policy that any block is likely to occur right now. John Carter (talk) 18:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Red links (Category:Rouge admins)
I'm confused. Is this(diff no longer exists due to User:East718 deleting his userpage history) and this some sort of adding of categories to make a point, only this time by admins? Should they be blocked for edit warring over a category on their user pages? If a category gets deleted, especially for the reasons this one was, should admins (especially) be insisting on keeping it on their user pages? I'm just curious. This is very confusing to me, considering what I've been through over this. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 02:44, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)


 * This is really pointy in my opinion as someone involved in the CfD. <font color="#000">(<font color="#c20">Hypnosadist )  03:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Having a red link isn't disruptive whereas lying about being an admin is. John Reaves 03:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The reasons the category was deleted still apply to having it posted after it was deleted. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 03:08, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes it is disruptive and disrespectful, and he wasn't lieing about being an admin "IT WAS ONLY A JOKE CATEGORY HONEST". <font color="#000">(<font color="#c20">Hypnosadist )  03:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Ahh, so they can be rogue admins and have a rouge category to prove it, nice. Well, I don't really see the deleted category anything to fuss over, it's deleted, so lets move on. — <font color="007FFF">Save_Us   †  03:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The Cat was banned because it was disruptive to wikipedia by setting up a class structure. This new "Joke" the rouge admins have come up with is less funny than the first and is a clear demonstation of the their attitudes to wikipedia process. <font color="#000">(<font color="#c20">Hypnosadist )  03:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No. The category was not banned. It was deleted. It is still deleted. There is nothing wrong here. Move on.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 03:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No its still on pages and its still disruptive. Something wrong here. Stay here. <font color="#000">(<font color="#c20">Hypnosadist )  03:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how it makes a difference that it was deleted if it's still posted on user pages. The deletion basically just got rid of the category page. If people are going to have the link and be included in the list, what was the purpose of deleting it? Do we need to create a new process, "Categories for banning"? <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 03:13, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)
 * If you want the category on your userpage, you can put it there, there is nothing wrong with that. I may go make this point by adding it to mine now. Prodego  <sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk  03:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

← Just want to reiterate how entirely inappropriate this is. If the category is still posted in admin pages, the problem still exists. This seems like an act of defiance. You can bet that if a category the admins didn't like got deleted, they'd make a huge stink about editors continuing to post it. Are we all allowed to continue posting categories even after they get deleted? Just trying to understand this. 'Cause I've got a hankering for some deleted categories myself. Maybe I'll take a look through the category deletion archives and see what might tickle my fancy. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 03:33, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)


 * Village pump (policy)/Archive 19. - <font color="#0000cd">auburn <font color="#EF6521">pilot  talk  03:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Doesn't seem to be any conclusion there... <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 03:40, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)


 * You know, I supported you whenever you got blocked for when the whole fiasco occured, but honestly your stated intent to readd deleted categories that could be contentious, may be the kind of disruptive behavior that administrators were pointing out beforehand when got you blocked. The deleted category serves no purpose and them having it is literally harmless now as the category is now obsolete and is no more. You pursuing the matter could make you wind up on a path you don't want to travel on. — <font color="007FFF">Save_Us  †  03:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * But it wasn't actually deleted, now was it? The category page was deleted, but if you click the red link or go to a page with the category posted, you'll see that it's alive and quite well. And me posting deleted categories on my userpage shouldn't be seen as disruptive... I'm not interrupting or wasting the time of others, like creating XfDs for things I don't actually think should be deleted, etc, as is the spirit of WP:POINT to prevent. I would just be adding deleted categories to my own userpage. No one should actually mind that, no matter what my reasons, if it is indeed okay to post deleted categories. I appreciate your past support, but disgusting behavior like this, especially by those "in charge", is worth making a big deal over, for precedents' sake. In my opinion. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 04:02, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was deleted, and I will repeat this again, the category is now meaningless as the category page is now deleted. The page was put up for deletion because it gave a false sense of "authority" among those in the category and because it was a category meant for humor but was used seriously. The page deleted was in no way contentious material (or at least from what I saw before it was deleted). What I'm saying is if your digging through CFD to find deleted categories to add to your userpage, I would be very wary of deleted categories that were deleted because of them being offensive or contentious in some way, or otherwise you could be on the path to the similar-style dispute you were already in once. — <font color="007FFF">Save_Us  †  04:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Would I be on a path to a similar-style dispute if I now posted Category:Rouge admins on my userpage? Because if I would be, then the deletion meant nothing, as it was done to prevent that disruption. If I can now post it then fine, the deletion served its purpose -- but I have a feeling I still can't, and it IS still being taken seriously. Don't you see? Deletion means nothing for categories if people still have them posted. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 04:36, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I meant other categories that were deleted other than this one. Anyways, while the categories very existance is now deleted, identifying as an administrator when you are not one is not something that would be encouraged. I'm sure others (not so sure about you Equazcion) would agree that if another user said if they were an administrator in plain text on their userpage, that they would have been treated the same way (the text in question removed and warned them about it, and if they persisted, a block). Identifying as an administrator is not funny or seen as humor when you are in fact, not one. It doesn't mean the person who said to remove the text and blocked you didn't read the humor box or is trying to be particulary spiteful, it means that identifying as an administrator when you aren't one, period, isn't allowed, and shouldn't be allowed. — <font color="007FFF">Save_Us  †  04:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And therefore, a joke category for making such an identification shouldn't be allowed, because regular editors can't be in on the joke, which is why it was deleted, yet it still exists (for all intents and purposes, despite the fact that MediaWiki's definition of category deletion is simply deletion of the category page), and it is still a joke exclusive to admins. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 04:55, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)
 * How is it even a joke category or a category meant for humor anymore? It's deleted. Now it is simply a category that identifies an administrator as rouge (or red? ironic to the red-link, no?). It makes since that an administrator can identify as a administrator and a non-administrator can't. To put it quite frankly Equazcion, there is no reason for you to identify as a adminstrator, the only thing coming out of it is someone mistaking you for an admin. — <font color="007FFF">Save_Us  †  05:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You seem to be focused on the "delete" nomenclature, but try to look past that. What is a category? What does deleting it mean? The only difference between then and now is the category page. That's it. We can call the category "deleted" all we want, but if a category is defined as a named grouping of users or pages, then the category is still very much there. I'm not saying I want to post it again on my page -- I'm saying the deletion meant nothing and, if I can take that a small step further, isn't being respected; The page was removed, but that was never the problem; the grouping itself, which is what caused the problems noted in the deletion discussion, is still there. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 05:09, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you not find it ironic that you want all the other editors removed from the category, and you want yourself to be in the category, making Category:Rouge admins consist of a sole editor, you? Your logic is flawed by all means. I understand your intentions, your intent is to not have the category cause you any trouble if you get added in it. You seem to be missing the very important element of being added to a category that has the word 'administrator' in it, you're not an admin. It's not about a joke, its not about being excluded from a joke, it's not even about the category itself, its the fact you're being called an admin when you're not. — <font color="007FFF">Save_Us   †  05:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "I'm not saying I want to post it again on my page". No that's not my intent in not "having" the category, but whatever my intent or your disagreement with it, we shouldn't "have" it anymore anyway, because it has been deleted. This isn't about me wanting to be in the category -- that's long forgotten. I don't want to be in the category. I thought this was clear but if it was not, I hope this clarifies things. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 05:21, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)


 * Its not really edit warring if they've only made one revert. Mr.  Z- man  03:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The only point worth making here is that some of the arguments for deletion were based on the assumption that people can't or won't tag their user pages into a category that doesn't exist. Those arguments are now shown to have been spurious. Hesperian 03:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Hm, I don't see a problem with my being in a nonexistent category. (For what it's worth, there's Category:Rouge non-admins, but it can't be deleted...) Keilana | Parlez ici 04:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If you're in it, then it exists. Only the page is gone. Hey aren't you the one who offered me an RfA? How do ya' like me now? :) No seriously, I appreciated that, but still, this needs to be dealt with. If people are still in a category, with a listing and all, the concerns addressed by the closing as delete continue to persist. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 04:08, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)
 * This isn't actually a problem, and there should be no concern. Take Category:Gayass Wikipedians for example. The cat was deleted, yet there are still 6 editors who have chosen to reinclude themselves in the redlinked cat. It doesn't cause any harm. - <font color="#0000cd">auburn <font color="#EF6521">pilot  talk  04:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That's debatable... And the reasons the rouge category was deleted didn't have as much to do with the page as it did with the problems the grouping itself caused. So now that it's deleted, can regular editors post it too? Or would that cause the same trouble again? I'm not saying I want to post it again myself, but if doing so would still cause the same trouble, then the so-called "deletion" didn't actually do anything. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 04:31, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing short of an ArbCom decision that will stop anyone from including themselves in a category that does not exist or has been deleted. There is nothing that is within the purview of an administrator's duties here. Have you tried asking them to remove themselves from the category instead of coming directly here to complain about it?— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 05:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No, they had it removed once already, and their edit summaries when re-adding it told me that that would be a fruitless attempt. Besides which my problem isn't with one or two specific users. I'm sure not all the admins who had the category posted prior to the deletion are online now, and I find it more than probable others will revert the removal once they see it, so I wanted to deal with this centrally. If it's true that people can still post deleted categories, CFD is a complete sham and a waste of time. It should be called "category pages for deletion", and in that event, you can bet it would almost never get used. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 05:14, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you ask them to remove the category, or did you remove it yourself and then they reverted you? Because that's what I get from your response.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 05:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't do anything. The admin who closed the deletion discussion removed it, and they reverted it. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 05:30, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, did you ask them to remove it this time?— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 05:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No, for the reasons I just stated above. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 05:35, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)
 * All this appears now is a "If I can't be in it, no one can" mentality.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 06:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You're welcome to think that, but my motivation doesn't matter, as the decision has already been made. There should no longer be an "it". <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 06:06, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)


 * Deletion does mean something when it comes to categories: the page can no longer be reached through the category system nor found via a search. – Black Falcon (Talk) 05:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * In other words, the page is deleted. The category is still there. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 05:43, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)
 * Essentially, yes... Technically, a small grouping still exists, but it's not publicised and is significantly more difficult to find. With articles, I think it's worthwhile to insist that all deleted categories be emptied; with user pages, I don't feel that it's a worthwhile endeavour. Black Falcon (Talk) 06:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * However, I don't think it's a reason to give on CFD (or UCFD). In most cases, deletion results in emptying without any objection. This type of situation is relatively rare. – Black Falcon (Talk) 06:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's finally time to put WP:UCFD up on WP:MFD SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Perhaps as a compromise, and assuming we don't have an inclusive category:Rouge Wikipedians, then perhaps those with redlinks on user pages would agree to change them to category:Rouge Adnims, allowing the extension of th "joke" both to an entire extra word in the category name, and to the inclusion of non-admins. Of course, we would need to make sure that no one was blocked for claiming to be an adnim without proof. Jay*Jay (talk) 05:25, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Should editors (inclusive of admins) keep on their userpage a category that has been deleted? Probably not, since it clutters up Special:Wantedcategories. Is it worth trying to force editors to remove a redlinked category from their user page? Probably not. – Black Falcon (Talk) 05:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe so, but it would be nice if we didn't need to force people to do the right thing, least of all admins. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 05:44, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)

By the way, the technical problem really is that non-existent categories still produce a listing. This basically means anyone can create or revive pretty much any category, and no process has any control over their existence. If that functionality were disabled, the problem would basically be solved -- although I think even in that event, it would behoove admins, as well as editors who consider themselves in good standing, to not post deleted categories. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 06:05, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)
 * Why is this such a big deal to you? SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
 * (ec) I'm not sure how easy or difficult it would be to disable that functionality, but I don't think it's worth the effort required. In addition, the functionality can be useful at times (for instance, when a user adds a category to various pages but doesn't create the category page itself, the fact that the non-existent category page has members helps other editors to find and create it). – Black Falcon (Talk) 06:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Frankly, I'm amazed at the mileage Equazcion and his cohorts are getting out of this assault on anything funny about Wikipedia. After the Rouge Admin cat, I now see they're going after any essay or guideline that's funny. This is me calling for a community ban on two editors who seek to disrupt as much of the project as possible to ruin the experience for anyone else. I can't take their actions as seriously being made in Good Faith. ThuranX (talk) 06:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I second this motion. I had not even heard of Equazcion until he was only temporarily blocked, and my patience has been exhausted. The category is gone, and the page is at MFD as we speak.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 06:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * (many ec's -- this response is to SchmuckyTheCat)Because I feel that in similar reverse situations, admins would make a similar-size deal, and get their way. Ie., if there were a user category admins felt strongly against, it got deleted, and a few select users continued to post it in a kind of pointy protest, I seriously doubt that's something they'd let easily go. As I said earlier (above somewhere), this is more about precedent than it is about this particular little scenario. A wise man once said my mistake was bringing a knife to a gunfight. Well, maybe their guns shouldn't be quite so big.
 * (and to Thuranx) I voted to Keep the Rouge page.
 * (and to Ryu) Get me banned if you like. My crime is not blindly yielding to the status quo. I care much more about Wikipedia than I do about my own personal ability to edit it. If you find my comments unhelpful, simply ignore them. Ignoring someone is the first step towards eliminating their "disruptiveness". All I'm doing is talking -- you don't need to listen. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 06:19, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)


 * I've yet to see you touch an article page since your block expired.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 06:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Then you're not looking close enough. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 06:23, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)
 * My bad, I thought the block had been more recent. Then I've yet to see you touch an article in the past 48 hours.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 06:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That could be true. Although I doubt I'd be the first person to go 48 hours without editing an article, or even the first person to go 48 hours only participating in discussions rather than editing articles. I don't quite see anything wrong with that. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 06:33, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, you're really the bigger man for voting keep. I suggest that before you run to nom WP:DICK, you read it while holding up a mirror. ThuranX (talk) 06:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No no, you are definitely the bigger man here, as evidenced by this comment. I was responding to your citing the rouge page discussion as part of my disruptiveness, so my Keep !vote would preclude that, or so I had thought. Perhaps I misunderstood. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 06:28, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)


 * I do believe we have a dead horse here. The animal is expired.  It is an ex-horse.  It is, indeed, quite beaten into a paste.  Equazcion, you may put down your club.  Thank you, Antandrus  (talk) 06:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't. I'm quite confident that if Equazcion is not made fully aware of the bad faith his continued actions engender, he will continue to go after various policy, guideline and essay pages, until all the humor is expunged. I've got no interest in seeing that happen. This is an editor who has decided that bringing down the big bad elitist system of Admins is his priority. My only comfort is that this sort of stupidity usually precludes an editor from ever getting the Admin nod. ThuranX (talk) 06:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Accuse and indulge in bad faith in the same comment. I like that. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 06:35, 18 Feb 2008 (UTC)

I'm archiving this, as it's going no where fast. If Equazcion is causing disruption to the point that it is exhausting the community's patience, post a separate thread to gauge community consensus on the matter. As far as the category goes, get over it. It is a dead horse and the one that shot it should really stop beating it.  Lara  ❤  Love  07:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Spamming from different IPs
220.224.204.* has been inserting *.brainbubbles.biz under external links for various articles (particularly kindergarten). This is just some kind of search engine. IPs that have done this so far include:


 * 220.224.204.17 - Kindergarten, Medical gloves
 * 220.224.204.67 - Kindergarten
 * 220.224.204.70 - Golf courses
 * 220.224.204.194 - Kindergarten, Pre-kindergarten

I'm not sure what to do about these. WP:SPAM doesn't really provide a course of action for where to report SPAM that isn't current and persistent, so I'm listing these here. <font color="#9C4F4F">&mdash;To <font color="#4B0082">rc.  <font color="#4F7C4F">( <font color="#4F7C4F">Ta <font color="#4B0082">lk. <font color="#4B0082">) 04:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The IP looks pretty solid. What sort of damage would a lock do? HalfShadow (talk) 05:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * not much, unfortnately. is there any way to report this infomration to his ISP and get his connection yanked??. Smith Jones (talk) 05:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, also don't forget to check Special:Linksearch (he'll change to a log-in soon enough), and if nothing else, blacklist time. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

http://spam.brainbubbles.biz

In the future, you should report these to WT:WPSPAM. MER-C 10:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It would really help if WP:SPAM or even WP:WPSPAM indicated this. <font color="#9C4F4F">&mdash;To <font color="#4B0082">rc.  <font color="#4F7C4F">( <font color="#4F7C4F">Ta <font color="#4B0082">lk. <font color="#4B0082">) 20:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

User:David Shankbone "anger" photos
User:David Shankbone has uploaded pictures of himself in a political gathering and added them to various articles on wikipedia such as Anger, Body language, Gesture, Index finger, Type of gesture, Logical argument‎, Eye contact, Staring (please see the history as well, as I have tried to remove the pictures from some of them now and on some I have not been successful). Because of the large number of these articles including his pictures and that they follow the same pattern I'd like to notify the community about them.

For example, please take a look at this section in Anger article:. It is my belief that adding political-flavored images to articles that are not notable or known for any political issue is not appropriate. The concept of anger itself is rather independent of politics; If the images were notable (they are not), they were only justified to represent the concept of anger in the context of politics (but there is no such section there); and lastly the image is not historically notable; there are thousands of images available on the internet that do not have political flavor but represent the matter and I believe there are already such images in the article.

User:Durova proposed other historical and notable images like but David rejected this approach saying: "We need a modern example that isn't a statute."

There are already similar images on the same topic here --Be happy!! (talk) 07:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry but this is not the venue for content dispute, please go to WP:Dispute Resolution. nat.utoronto 07:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Nat, I brought the case here because of the large number of articles involved. If it was one, I would not have brought them here.--Be happy!! (talk) 07:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * None of those pictures even have David Shankbone in them. You should thank him for the pictures, not complain here. John Reaves 07:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * John, both pictures involved are of the same man who looks similar to him. Be it himself or someone else, my point is something completely different. I would thank him if he adds his pictures to the relevant articles (not on general concept such Anger etc ). --Be happy!! (talk) 07:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * How can this be encyclopedic? --Be happy!! (talk) 07:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This is David Shankbone, those pictures do not have him in them. John Reaves 07:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That guy is certainly angry, what is the problem with it being in the article? John Reaves 07:25, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * John, thank you very much for the link but my argument here does not revolve around the identity of the person in those images.
 * He is angry but the image has an additional political flavor. This relevant section explains how body reacts when a person becomes angry (but nothing more). I of course agreed with User:Durova proposal of focusing on the angry man itself by cropping the picture (focusing on the emotion itself) and rename the image title to something neutral. --Be happy!! (talk) 07:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see the problem with these, Aminz. The images aren't being used to promote any particular POV. They're just images of angry people. SlimVirgin  (talk) (contribs) 07:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Please zoom on the image or See the Image title. These are good for a section on "Anger in the context of politics" if there was such a section and if the pictures were notable. Another thing is that there are many other non-notable images that do not have political flavor.
 * But yes, of course they do not promote a POV except that they link and reinforce the concept of anger with politics in reader's mind. --Be happy!! (talk) 07:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Why does a political context disqualify a photo? That doesn't make any sense to me.  Any photo of someone who is angry is bound to have a context behind it.  R. Baley (talk) 07:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The images don't even have an overt political context. It seems like you're just grasping at straws for a reason to delete. John Reaves 07:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter if the images have overt political context. By adding them, we are providing a specific strong connection between contemporary politics and the concept of anger in the subconscious of the readers if not in their conscious. The images are not encyclopedic at all. --Be happy!! (talk) 07:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That's utter nonsense. John Reaves 07:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I can refer to related experiments in psychology and neurology if you are interested. For user:David Shankbone, there might be some correlations between concept of anger and politics just as for a football player there might be similar correlations in the context of his life but these connections are specific and have irrelevant component to the topic of this article: that is body's reaction to anger. This has been already shown using encyclopedic and historical artworks. My logic here and elsewhere is that when an image is not related to politics, it does not have to involve it.--Be happy!! (talk) 07:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The picture doesn't cause me to relate politics to anger. I see an overtly angry man, and nothing more. It isn't our job to worry about the subconscious mental health of the reader; our job is to inform the reader, which this picture does by showing a man with physical signs of anger. <font color="Brown">Sexy <font color="Teal">Sea <font color="Olive">Bass  08:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There is another picture in the same section that expresses the body's reaction when someone is angry(and the person is nude) . What's the point of adding that particular image that shows more than what it is supposed to show.--Be happy!! (talk) 08:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * David Shankbone is an interviewer and photographer. That is obviously not him in the photo, unless he suddenly aged about 20 years, besides which he apparently took the photo. That dispells the original complaint. And tell me if I'm wrong (my PC won't play the sound bite), but I don't see where he's taking sides on anything, he's just illustrating anger, finger-pointing, etc., so the complainants can't make the "POV" argument either. The picture's title simply identifies where it was taken, it doesn't say who's right or wrong in the argument. And it's a lot more interesting than some statue. I don't get what's up with wikipedians. They've got robot jobs clobbering thousands of fair-use images on the grounds that they only want "free" content in wikipedia. So here's a bit of "free" content and wikipedians are trying to shoot it down. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * One Wikipedian is making a completely illogical and desperate argument, and a group of other Wikipedians are putting a stop to it. Don't stereotype, <font color="Brown">Sexy <font color="Teal">Sea <font color="Olive">Bass  08:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Hold on thar. Is there anything about the photo or the sound bite (which I can't hear) that suggests whose side anyone should be taking? Because if there is, the complainant has a legitimate complaint. If not, then not. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I can not open that file but my point is about its political nature. --Be happy!! (talk) 08:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The Hybrid, Please tell me what aspect of anger is that picture supposed to show? --Be happy!! (talk) 08:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm assuming this is a WP:OWN issue since you brought Anger up to GA status. John Reaves 08:16, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Why are you not assuming good faith? I am simply more concerned about the quality of this article simply because I spent much time on it and want to see it in a good shape. That picture however lowers the quality. I am however completely open to any addition that can help the article become FA. --Be happy!! (talk) 08:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Body language, I haven't checked the sound file, but if anything is wrong with it, then it can be removed. The sound fil I assume is to show verbal signs of anger, such as a raised and combative voice. BTW, something being political in nature is irrelevant so long as it doesn't push any one POV, which this does not. <font color="Brown">Sexy <font color="Teal">Sea <font color="Olive">Bass  08:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If the article is about anger, body language, etc., why does it matter what he's angry about? It's a good generic illustration of anger. And the statues don't necessarily work. The statue of the Biblical David, alleged to be anger, looks to me like "concentration". He looks like a lot of photos I've seen of baseball pitchers in mid-delivery. As for the "fury" statue, it doesn't say "anger" to me. But the photo does. And who cares what he's angry about? He could just as easily be yelling at somebody for blocking him into his parking space... or for deleting his fair-use image on wikipedia. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:20, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm bowing out now, BTW. I also suggest undenting this whole thing, as John did. <font color="Brown">Sexy <font color="Teal">Sea <font color="Olive">Bass  08:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd agree 100% with Baseball Bug's comment. It doesn't matter if the guy is upset because of something political as much as it be if he was upset because he only got two pickle slices with his burger instead of three. It really should be a moot point. David's photo is very encyclopedic in content and serves as a worthy illustration for the concept of Anger and in some of the other articles it was added to. As for the statue pic, it is certainly an interpretation piece. I see more agony rather than anger or fury, but that is me. David's pic illustrates anger much more clearly. AgneCheese/Wine 08:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * User:David Shankbone gives his perspective on this dispute in Wikipedia talk:Images. Apparently the "political" context of this image is the protest against Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at Columbia University last year. Shankbone has changed the image caption and retitled the image to accommodate User:Aminz, but apparently this is not enough. / edg ☺ ☭ 08:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The compromise that I agreed to was to crop the image and include only the man. And also change the image title to something related to the emotion. --Be happy!! (talk) 08:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Shankbone's reasons for having both disputants in the image are given in Wikipedia talk:Images. He proposes Aminz is trying to get the barely legible flyer on the bottom right removed from the article, at the expense of showing both disputants. I'm going to stop arguing Shankbone's position now. / edg ☺ ☭ 09:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I confess, as yet another argument starts up about David's images, that I really don't understand what's going on. And I'm not saying this because I am David's friend; as time has gone on, and David has been hauled into disputes for illustrating topics as diverse as public hair, Orthodox Judaism, and now anger, I find myself more and more baffled as to why people are so determined to harry an editor who has done nothing but provide good quality images for Wikipedia. Call me stupid, but when people claim that, say, a drawing of pubic hair, or a statue expressing anger, or unbelivably, no image at all, is preferable to one of David's images of a real life person illustrating the article in question, I really, truly do not understand why they think this makes sense. Is anyone on here to write an encyclopedia any more?

To move to this specific case: why this man is angry is utterly irrelevant, as stated above. Few things get people so riled up as politics, so why not show it? Yes, David suffixes all his images with "by David Shankbone". So what? The man has spent hundreds of hours developing free images for us, is it so awful that he might want some credit? Do we not release images under the Creative Commons licence for this exact same reason?

Again, I am astonished that David has yet again come under fire for illustrating an article with a better image than what there was before. Seriously, what the hell. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 08:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * A vaguely related question: there are identifiable minors in the image, does that matter at all, or since it was at a public place we are okay using them? Jd2718 (talk) 08:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Another issue, the sound file gives out the names and locations of these two people (though the man gives an obvious fake name). At the very least, this should be edited out for the sake of privacy. -- M P er el  09:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * How do you know it's fake? What is it? I can't play the thing. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 09:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm just guessing that Rumpelstiltskin was a fake name : ) The woman seemed to give her real name though. -- M P er el  09:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * He looks more like an Ichabod Crane than a Rumpelstiltskin, but you never know. Maybe her name should not be made available, though, unless she gave permission. And if not, it's probably a little late now. Again, it would be best to check the policy manual. Logic tells me if you're in public and someone is photographing or videotaping you, you might assume that's going to be published somewhere. But I don't know the law on that matter. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 09:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Cropping is inappropriate, as it amounts to censorship. The viewer might be interested in who he was yelling at and why. As far as privacy goes, I have raised this question before. In a public place, there is no particular right to privacy in terms of simply being photographed. And since this guy was drawing attention to himself by yelling, he has even less grounds to claim privacy. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 09:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Censorship is a spurious argument in this case. The expressed aim of the photo is to illustrate the emotion, not the event. Just imagine David having used a higher zoom level (for a smaller field of view) when taking the picture - would he be censoring as well? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If the photographer decides to crop the photo, that's his editorial judgment, and is only an issue if cropping it makes it misleading. If someone else tells him he has to do it, just because he doesn't like what's in the picture, that's censorship. The photo is a good illustration of anger, regardless of the context. And someone who might be interested has the right to know why he was angry. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 09:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * So if David crops it, that is editorial judgment, but if we do it, its censorship? Sorry, no. We want to use the photo not to describe the event in question - this is purely coincidental. We use it to shown the emotion of anger. In this context, the user does not have the right or even the expectation to know why the user is angry - and in fact, the photo is useless in telling us the reason. He may very well be shouting at the woman because her minivan scratched his SUV on the parking lot. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I was asking about the privacy of the two young people watching the dispute. Jd2718 (talk) 09:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * They are not identified, and I expect you'll find other photos that show minors. However, it would be best to consult the policy manual, wherever that may be. Regarding the flier in the lower right, as someone brought up earlier, Mr. Shankbone could perhaps be persuaded to blur it out, but I say again that it doesn't really matter. Whose side would the picture compel the viewer to take? The viewer might feel sympathy for the woman who's being yelled at. Or the viewer might side with the guy because he thinks he's right. It's not our place to tell the viewer what point of view to take on a political topic. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 09:18, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There are thousands of non-political drawings, pictures and statues of people expressing anger. Why is it necessary to use the controversial ones? --Be happy!! (talk) 09:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What's controversial about it? What are you seeing that I'm not seeing? And how do those non-descript statues express anger better than this photo does? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 09:35, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Something tells me that had the picture been taken at a rally against, say, George W Bush, this thread would never have happened. rudra (talk) 09:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This is frankly bonkers - David spends a lot of time providing good quality photos and other material to the encyclopaedia and the thanks is that some users want to kick him in the bollocks. --Fredrick day (talk) 09:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * We are specifically talking about addition of certain pictures to certain articles. That's all.--Be happy!! (talk) 09:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Which you examined so closely, you concluded that David was in them! I can see nothing wrong with any of those photos and there placement on the anger article, nobody else here seems to have a problem. This is a content dispute and does not actually require admin action BUT this thread shows that current community thinking is that there is not a problem with including those pictures. --Fredrick day (talk) 10:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Anger is anger. It doesn't matter where it occurs. Editmaniac (talk) 09:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I would like Mr. Happy to explain what it is about this specific photo that he has such a problem with. As the Editmaniac said, and I sort-of said, anger is anger. And there is nothing in that photo that inherently pushes a point of view. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 09:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It isn't the point of view. It's the associations. rudra (talk) 10:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Can this be clarified a little? I may have "associations" with all sorts of images. Perhaps because of this I have objections to any depiction (implicit or explicit) of a certain thing. What demands can I make of Wikipedia on behalf of my associations, and those of people like me? / edg ☺ ☭ 10:16, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You all are kind of talking in riddles here. I infer that the original complainant is sensitive to the fact that this rally has something to do with that Iranian guy. But that's not the focus of the picture, and there is no justification for censoring it. Actually, as someone suggested, the minors being in the picture might be a bigger issue. But this is the American-English wikipedia, which is not censored just because someone doesn't like something. The photo does not inherently take a viewpoint on the subject of its participants' debate. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Not the Iranian guy, but the religion the Iranian guy professes. Yes, that's tangential.  Yes, that's a stretch.  But... It's there, and that's enough for Aminz. rudra (talk) 10:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, please, only in plain and forthright language as to what the exact problem is. I'm not very good at reading between the lines. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I do not fully agree with the Iran's president nor with many of his opponents outside Iran. But this is aside the point. When you mention X and Y together, one's brain associates them and strengthens the connection between them. That's the basic principle of learning in neuro science. --Be happy!! (talk) 10:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Excellent! I'll take the opportunity to mention "wikilawyering" and "kitman" together.  Maybe we can all learn a basic principle. rudra (talk) 10:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know from neuroscience. All I see is a photo of an angry guy yelling at a woman. If you think the photographer is trying to promote a point of view, then you've got something. But you haven't made that claim, you're making an argument on some kind of theoretical grounds about nerve endings or something. If you can persuade him to slice the bottom of the photo or to blur out the illustration that bothers you, that's fine. But you're making way too much of this. P.S. You would be well-advised to remove or reword your initial statement about the photo actually being of the photographer. It's clearly untrue, and it undermines your argument. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned earlier aside from the political associations, I have no objections to the image. Thanks also for the advice. My argument didn't depend on that point. --Be happy!! (talk) 10:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for fixing. And I don't agree that political associations is what the photo is about. It's about anger, and it just happens to be at a political rally. That's American free speech at work. But if you think the photographer is trying to push a particular viewpoint, you need to raise that issue. P.S. I'm as WASP as they come, and I've got no use for the Iranian president, but my initial reaction to the photo was sympathy for the one being yelled at. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Just to say, not everyone would agree with Aminz's beliefs about what he says is "neuro science" to him and how it works, nor even about the belief that there is such a thing as the unconscious mind. As to cropping the photos if anyone wished to do so- they are under a free license, so we can edit them mercilessly, and the artist will have known that. :)  Merkinsmum  12:35, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the images are very useful and nicely done. I see nothing wrong with the association of anger (or whatever the subject is) with politics because there is always some context - if we show someone angry over losing his keys, we're associating anger with keys.  However, if we do get a preponderance of similarly-styled and themed images from the same editor (I'm talking hundreds or thousands, not just a few) or it begins to look POV then it's fair to make an editorial decision that we don't want the encyclopedia to take on that flavor.  I'm concerned over the incivility directed to the poster for bringing the question up, and the attempt to simply shut down the discussion.  Yes, it is a matter of general interest that potentially raises behavior concerns, so please don't WP:BITE anyone, old or new, for bringing something up here in good faith.  If you don't want to deal with it, you can skip to the next section.Wikidemo (talk) 16:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment, I see that this discussion has been tagged as "resolved" and I am all for it because quite frankly, I could not see what the big deal was. I am not particularly interested in the issue, I just happened to notice the situation while on patrol. I will give my opinion only this once on this subject and that is all. I do not believe that the image has any political insinuation. I believe that the image properly reflects the topic in the section of the article which is the expression of anger, in this case amongst two groups. Therefore, the image is revelant to the section of the article. This should not be turned into a big deal. To Mr. Shankbone, thank you for all of the images which you have contributed to Wikipedia. That is all and Thank you. Tony the Marine (talk) 06:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Jakew and Avraham
This really would not be a dispute if Jakew and Avraham did not try to control an entire article and bully everybody else from editing. The article is circumcision and it is well-believed by many or most doctors that circumcision can reduce a man's risk of getting HIV but can INcrease a man's risk of getting chlamydia and herpes. Jakew and Avraham WILL NOT allow me to add ONE SENTENCE about the chlamydia and herpes, even though it is verifiable and provable that many doctors feel this way. Circumcision article mentions HIV probably 100 times (I'm not joking) and mentions herpes or chlamydia not once. The entire article is an advertisement for how the procedure MAY decrease HIV. That's all it is. Why can't I add ONE ARTICLE to Wikipedia here?? Anyway, I'd greatly appreciate anyone who wants to help balance this article. Also there's hardly any discussion about the sexual effects of circumcision, they want to you to link to an entirely new article. But shouldn't the Whole HIV and circumcision connection simply be put into a separate article too? The entire circumcision article is really only about HIV. Help would be much appreciated. LPRABCMP (talk) 07:20, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I really don't see what you are claiming here. You added a reference that suggested the chlamidia/herpes connection which has been removed several times, when you added it as an IP address and now as a logged in account, and "HIV" is only used a little over a dozen times. Please bring controversial material to the talk page of the article first, as it is already being described on the talk page. Continue there, gain consensus, and then add it to the article.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 07:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess canvassing dozens of random uninvolved admins didn't suffice. Frankly, the only one I see bullying other editors is yourself . ˉˉanetode╦╩ 08:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism from 217.70.244.236
I've run across several items that this person has vandalized, and have now told him/her twice to stop. Inks.LWC (talk) 08:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Reports like this generally belong on WP:AIV. Cheers, <font color="Brown">Sexy <font color="Teal">Sea <font color="Olive">Bass  09:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Non-notification
This discussion has been moved to Administrators' noticeboard/Betacommand. 15:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Unrealistic timestamp to fool the archive bot -- lucasbfr  talk 15:53, 18 February 2018

User:Fenderesk
First of all, this user has removed tags that marked his uploads as having no copyright info. See diffs:, , and.

Second, Fenderesk created four articles on seemingly the same article: ShirAbad Waterfall, Shirabad, Shirabad waterfall and Waterfall shirabad. I saw this, and put merge tags on three of the articles, and a mergefrom on the first. See diffs:, , and. I even left a message on Talk:ShirAbad Waterfall explaining the tags. Fenderesk removed all those tags too. Diffs:, , and. I have since returned the tags.

I do not know the proper course of action here and haven't found much in the Help or Wikipedia namespaces. Please advise/help. Thanks, -ReuvenkT C 13:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Just appears to be a good-faith editor with no knowledge of our policies. I left them the stock welcome notice, tagged or delete some images, and redirected all the articles. <small style="background:#fff;border:#ccc 1px solid;color:#000;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap">east<big style="color:#090">. 718 at 13:59, February 18, 2008

require assistance
I'm requesting admin assistance with this. I'm not sure this doesn't go too far into the direction WP:NLT. User:Dorftrottel 14:56, February 18, 2008
 * Not a legal threat but worth keeping an eye on. Stifle (talk) 15:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope, no threat as Stifle says - commenting on a legal matter doesn't make it a Legal Threat. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#060">Neıl <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#060">☎  15:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok thanks. I thought better to err on the side of caution. User:Dorftrottel 15:58, February 18, 2008

User: Mctrain needs a timeout
There's a thread above, which is entirely subsumed by his ranting so I pulled this out. WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA take your pick, especially from this comment, which he'd initially done not signed in. For the sake of a reasonable discussion, not to mention WP:CIVIL, and anyone's sanity he needs a time out. Travellingcari (talk) 16:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Mctrain


Would anyone endorse a block for Mctrain based on these AFD comments and the other harassment of ThuranX? Seems somewhat focused on insulting other users. Regards, Rudget . 17:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * see my thread immediately above yours. I'm not an admin, but I think it's clearly needed. Travellingcari (talk) 17:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, apologies. It seems he posted after a final warning (see history of talk page). Block is therefore warranted. Rudget . 17:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I was just looking at User:Mctrain's contribs and I would support a block of up to 48 hours. He has become "unstable", to say it the nice way and has spent the last 2 days ranting about leaving Wikipedia anyway. <font color="#21421E" face="comic sans ms">Keeper   |  <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">76   |  <font color="#ff0000"> Disclaimer  17:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Blocked for 40 hours. Little comment on his talk page regarding the behaviour. Rudget . 17:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There were several warnings on the talkpage that he replaced with an "I'm leaving" and other such "huff". By "little comment" do you mean few warnings, or do you mean that you've left a little comment? Also, the block template or your note should be updated to say 40 hours. <font color="#21421E" face="comic sans ms">Keeper   |  <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">76   |  <font color="#ff0000"> Disclaimer  17:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Should I re-instate the warnings? And I mean't I've left a little comment. Updating now. Rudget . 17:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope, not neccessary --Jayron32. talk . contribs 17:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think that essay should necessarily apply when a user removes valid warnings. Those also serve to inform future editors of past behavioral problems; it's unrealistic to expect them to check the history every time they need to issue a warning tag. <font color="#9C4F4F">&mdash;To <font color="#4B0082">rc.  <font color="#4F7C4F">( <font color="#4F7C4F">Ta <font color="#4B0082">lk. <font color="#4B0082">) 20:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Need help on Jodha Akbar
Admins: A user shahid just wants his POV to be presented on this page. I have put up material from various scholars and he is removing it without providing a single reference which contradicts the references provided. What should we do? Itihaaskar (talk) 17:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC) PS: I sometimes forget to log in and my IP address 125.* shows up in edits.
 * Some edit warring, subject in the news, someone might want to look at it and consider semiprotection. Relata refero (talk) 17:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Nepotism needs protection from WP:BLP violation
A small number of editors are repeatedly adding an uncited, unsourced paragraph containing allegations of impropriety by living people to Nepotism. By my reading this is a violation of WP:BLP. The paragraph claims as its (uncited) source "online comments", which are not even acceptable as a source under WP:SPS. Discussion on the talk page has not been adequate to stop the reverting, and at least one editor has become abusive in edit summaries over this issue. Protection seems warranted. --FOo (talk) 17:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * So done. --Jayron32. talk . contribs  17:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Unacceptable editing on talk page?
Draft of comments to be sent to an ISP abuse contact in respect of a recent incident on the tlak page for the Anonymous(group) talk page..

Dear Sirs, A user/customer of your services has made unacceptable edits to English Wikipedia, See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/77.187.210.184 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAnonymous_%28group%29&diff=192339010&oldid=192338681

Owing to the nature of the disruption the IP is currently indefinitely blocked from editing on English Wikipedia, which may cause inconvenience to other legitimate editors using your services.

It would be appreciated if you could ensure that the user or customer responsible is reminded of their obligations with respect to your applicable Terms Of Service/ Acceptable Use Policy. If the matter is deemed a serious abuse, then I would strongly urge you to ensure the user/customer concerned's abuse is referred to the appropriate authorities...

Figured I would mention the incident here first, before referring it to the ISP concerned Sfan00 IMG (talk) 17:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Due to the disruptive nature of the rendered text, I would suggest including "&diffonly=1" in the diff url. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAnonymous_%28group%29&diff=192339010&oldid=192338681&diffonly=1 —Random832 17:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, your message is more likely to be taken seriously if it is spelled correctly, I have made corrections above.

There is a procedure at WP:ABREP. —Random832 17:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There is no need to file an ISP abuse report, given that it is just (very creative) vandalism and nothing more. Furthermore, an IP address cannot (and should not) be indefinitely blocked, and the block on 77.187.210.184 was reduced to 1w.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 18:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, just a bit disturbing.
Resolved.

I came across IP 72.130.32.142 making some death threats during their vandalism, as seen in their contributions. I have blocked them for 48 hours for the time being, and come here to ANI as I honestly do not come across these everyday, and am unsure of where else to turn/go. What is the next step (if any) in this situation? Jmlk 1  7  00:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, 99% chance it's just run-of-the-mill vandalism. If you feel like reporting it to the authorities, go ahead, but there's almost no chance it's serious, and the authorities might not be able to do much anyway. Then again, I might be biased; my friends and I used to joke around all the time in high school that we'd kill each other, and my one time best-friend got caught doing so on a webpage and was hauled before a judge... The Evil Spartan (talk) 01:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think any death threat that names a specific individual should probably be reported. Reporting to the ISP is easy enough, but can anyone narrow that IP's location down further than all of southern California? Someguy1221 (talk) 01:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Narrowed it down some to Orange, California. 33.7949, -117.8410. I think that is specific enough. The same search came up with "Is proxy: false" and a Certainty rate of 99%. Regards, — <font color="007FFF">Save_Us  †  01:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Just to make sure, you're referring to the city and not the county? Someguy1221 (talk) 02:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, the search resulted in the parameter "city: Orange". — <font color="007FFF">Save_Us  †  02:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I've contacted the police and the ISP's abuse address. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ugh, we should have coordinated our timing, I've done the same. — <font color="007FFF">Save_Us  †  03:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Question: where did you get this place information? It isn't on the WHOIS and it gives a probability (I would like to have that, as I know WHOIS is often wrong). The Evil Spartan (talk) 03:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Geobytes. I've found it mostly reliable for static IP addresses, but Geobytes is mostly useless for open proxies or dynamic IP addresses, which results will be misleading. — <font color="007FFF">Save_Us  †  04:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * (slightly offtopic) I just tried Geobytes with a static IP and it got the country right, but the city was way off. Ros0709 (talk) 10:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Really? hmm... awkward, maybe something changed with the IP? — <font color="007FFF">Save_Us  †  03:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, one erroneous result does condemn the service. FWIW, the country is England and the cited city was London - which could well be a "default". I have had the same static IP assigned to me by my ISP for the last six years and neither myself or my ISP are in London. Ros0709 (talk) 23:20, 18 February 2008 (UTC)