Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive442

User:Dakinijones
I am not used to using ANI so I hope I am doing this right. I am asking for an Admin to look at User:Dakinijones's contribs and if necessary take preliminary injunctive action (topic ban/block) until this can be sorted out. I have asked the user to explain some of his actions and also notified the user of this ANI request at the same time. I am seeing an odd pattern of edits that makes no sense to me. What caught my eye was a series of undiscussed edits making removals of category "Spirituality" from a number of articles that clearly involve spiritual matters. I do AGF but it would be helpful to know why this particular change to these particular articles. Another thing that caught my attention is that the editor is using an account that was created more than a year ago, made two edits and then went quiet, and now suddenly became very active less than a month ago and has made well over 500 edits in that short time. Low Sea (talk) 00:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * My apologies if my actions have troubled Low Sea. I didn't remove any articles from spirituality - which is tagged as a category that tends to over-populate - since they are all in subcategories of spirituality. Mostly immediate sub-categories. I noted from her user page that she had a particular concern with the New Thought movement (which is a couple of categories down the tree) and so have suggested that if that's her main concern she either move the sub-category for New Thought up the category tree so that it's immediately under spirituality or just put the lead article for New Thought in spirituality. Since spirituality category tends to get over-populated I didn't believe it was appropriate to have - for example - articles about particular New Thought churches in Spirituality. My actions were only intended to somewhat depopulate an over-populated high domain category. Dakinijones (talk) 09:42, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I hereby withdraw my ANI request now that a clear explanation of the issue has been provided. The user was "restructuring" category tags, not "removing" them as was incorrectly described in the editsummaries. I have also left some suggestions for Dakinijones on his/her talk page to help them try and prevent such misunderstandings in the future. Thank you to the Admins who kept an eye on this until matters were more clear. Low Sea (talk) 17:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit offensive edit summary?
Can an admin. edit/erase this edit's offensive edit summary? --EEMIV (talk) 01:42, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, admins can't alter edit summaries. There is a proposal, however, on Village pump (proposals) to give editors the ability to edit their own edit summaries. - auburn pilot  talk  01:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You should probably request oversight for it. If you want, I can file the request for you. J.delanoy gabs adds  01:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You don't need it oversighted. Oversight is mainly for privacy issues. Revision deleted, edit summary gone. Neıl  龱  02:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Much obliged. --EEMIV (talk) 02:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Kossack4Truth
This editor, fresh from his battles on the Obama page, is editing. He questions whether mention of her involvement with the U.S. Attorney firing controversy should be in the lede. I have no problem discussing this and in fact the page editors have done so at Talk:Heather Wilson.

June 30: T4K deleted the mention with no edit summary. I reverted. No problem.

July 2: T4K deleted again. Posted concerns at talk page, protesting that no one should accuse him of not being a good Democrat. Seemed a bit strong since no one was doing so, but no problem. Another editor reverted. Discussions ensused without his partipation on July 2nd which were nearing consensus. T4K later posted that because the article, as he determined, had a history of bias (all of which had been repaired), he felt that was sufficient cause to delete. He didn't address the issues raised by other editors.

July 3: Before any editors could respond, he deleted the mention again. I reverted asking again to please participate before deleting. He reverted again, complaining that "I notice there was no response to my Talk page post last night." In his most recent reversion, he threatened in the edit summary, "Removing obvious WP:BLP violation. Revert again, and this will go to the BLP noticeboard and I will seek to have you blocked." However, the controversy is in the body of the article and well sourced. T4K was protesting the mention in the lede.

If this editor was a newbie, I would be happy to (as I always do) patiently walk through the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia. However, this isn't a new editor but one with a history of contentious editing practices. I refuse to participate in edit warring with this editor and I don't see from either his past history or his current curious way of participating on the talk page that collegial discussion is going to start happening. Therefore, I ask for the guidance of admins to intervene in this manner by reviewing the short talk section to see the good faith of the editors involved and taking whatever actions are necessary. &#8756; Therefore | talk 13:07, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Timing is everything. I posted my concerns on the Talk page last night. No response for at least 9-10 hours. I removed the offensive WP:BLP violation and was reverted by the complaining editor within six minutes. The complaining editor was ignoring the attempt to discuss on the Talk page, but the minute there was an edit in the article mainspace, it was time to take action.


 * I will repeat what I said at the BLP noticeboard: We have a dispute in an article that has seen at least one previous, outrageous, indefensible BLP violation against the husband of the biography's subject, calling him a child molester in a bold section header when he had been cleared in the investigation. There is source material indicating that at one time, Congresswoman Heather Wilson was under preliminary investigation by the House Ethics Committee. However, the most recent reliable source has a spokesperson for the committee saying that he is unaware of any such investigation.


 * We have an editor, User:Therefore, pushing to include a paragraph in the article lead claiming, "Currently, she is under a preliminary investigation by the House Ethics Committee over an alleged inappropriate contact with the United States Attorney for the District of New Mexico by inquiring, shortly before an election in which she faced a stiff challenge, on the status of a corruption investigation involving a Democratic politician."


 * This editor's only concession was to add the following sentence at the end of the paragraph: "However, an official investigation has not been confirmed." In my opinion, without confirmation, it does not go into the lead of the article. This report is clearly retaliatory since I posted on the BLP noticeboard first. Thoughts and comments, please. Kossack4Truth (talk) 13:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * By the way, did I mention that elsewhere in the article, we hadf a proven incident of plagiarism? There was an obvious cut-and-paste of quite a bit of material from a list of anti-Wilson talking points published by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. That's three different policy violations and all of them tended to attack Heather Wilson and her husband. I'm a Democrat, and I can't accept this continued course of conduct (accidental or not) at a supposedly neutral online encyclopedia. I checked my bias at the door. Kossack4Truth (talk) 13:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I will let the article talk page speak for the facts of this case since I neither wrote nor "pushed" said sentence, to the contrary. Just as an aside, I was the editor who participated in repairing all past problems with the article. &#8756; Therefore | talk 13:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

This alleged preliminary unconfirmed investigation is the kind of thing the BLP policy is supposed to guard against; K4T was right to keep it out. The accusation doesn't belong in the lede, in any case, since that would constitute undue emphasis on the matter. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  19:12, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Gentle NLT reminder requested
Fairly mild references to legal action have been made by User:Franz weber at Talk:Nova Publishers. Search that page for "law" and "court" to find them. I think this is simply a case of an inexperienced and frustrated user, so don't be hard on him, if indeed action is needed at all. The WP:LEGAL page seems to have changed since I was last conversant with it, so I think it would be best to have someone uninvolved look at this, rather than reproving him myself. Thanks, --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 13:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I've left a friendly note. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I am following up on the articles involved alsoDGG (talk) 19:23, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Check77 and NY road articles
User:Check77 continues to post incorrect information to NY Road articles for several months and he has yet to be blocked for it. He also removes stuff from his talk (not archiving, but just outright deletion), including on several warnings. Is this enough grounds for a block?Mitch32(UP) 18:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * For better or worse, user's are allowed to remove warnings from their talk page (see WP:DRC). They are still visible in the edit history.
 * Glancing through the edit history of User talk:Check77, I do see a lot of warnings, though most of what I saw is in regards to trying to restore deleted articles rather than incorrect information. Do you have recent diffs showing Check77 adding clearly incorrect information to articles?  Has he been issued a "final warning" in regards to this?
 * I'll take a closer look at his contribs, but if you could provide diffs, that would help me get to the bottom of this faster. Thanks! :) --Jaysweet (talk) 19:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Here are a bunch:      - These are clear proof that Check77 is not benefitting things - in fact, he is removing vital information.Mitch32(UP) 19:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I can verify that and  are incorrect. He seems to be assuming there's a pattern where 4xx always replaced xx - so it's both original research and flat wrong. I assume he's been told what he's doing is incorrect, and not just been given vandalism notices? --NE2 19:39, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * He just did this again, and I reverted his edit. I personally remember when Veterans Memorial Highway was designated NYS Route 454, and it had nothing to do with NY 54. It was originally Suffolk County Roads 78 and 76, and never anything else. DanTD (talk) 20:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe he was told when he made New York State Route 21A and claimed it and a Route 717 along with a Napay, New York existed.Mitch32(UP) 19:51, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Heh, I'll never understand road enthusiasts, even though I have a good friend IRL who is one, and I value the work they do for Wikipedia -- I'll still never understand :D hehehe
 * Anyway, thanks for the clarifications, guys, I was having trouble understanding what the issue is. It is difficult to say to what extent people have tried to explain the problem to Check77, because he just deletes all comments from his talk page.  I gave him a notice about this thread, but dollars to doughnuts I bet he deletes that too :D
 * If he continues to make these controversial edits without engaging in dialog, he will need to be blocked. --Jaysweet (talk) 19:52, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I gave him pretty explicit instructions on how to proceed here, and warned him that he could wind up getting blocked if he continues to stick his fingers in his ears. If he deletes that without responding to NE2's concerns about original research, I will give him a final warning and/or ask that he be blocked. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I warned this user at least once (see ) and I'm inclined to block now. Bearian (talk) 23:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I might agree. After I issued the warning, I poked around trying to understand the user's edits... and I think we might be dealing with a subtle troll.  All of his road-related edits are too subtle for a non-road enthusiast to understand, and yet they get almost universally reverted.  I think this may be the road enthusiast equivalent of the people who go around transposing all the numbers in random articles... --Jaysweet (talk) 01:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I just reverted him blanking the former routes from List of State Routes in New York again. -- Kéiryn (talk) 18:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * ...which was reverted and re-reverted (by a different watchdog while I was posting here) within 3 minutes. -- Kéiryn (talk) 18:45, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's more: and . Bearian (talk) 20:46, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * and another []. --Polaron | Talk 20:57, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't reverting info or anything, It clearly states that 3 digit routes starting with 4's are old parts of a route with the last two digits as of NYS Routes. Like 488, they put a 4 infront of it to notice that was part of the route 88. 2 digits after the 4 are 88. However 1 digits, like 3 add 40 before the 3 but it still applies because 3 is equaliviant to 03, 003, etc. As of this "Blanking thing" route 2 is set back to it's spot above 3 on the list, instead of next to the From, To, etc. If of any other incovinence please put info on my talk page, and have conversations there. --Check77 (talk) 20:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I just blocked Check77 for a 3RR violation after being warned. I'm new, so if 24 hours is too much, please reduce it.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * When the user's unblocked, he'll have to realize that not all 3 digit routes starting with 4's are old parts of a route with the last two digits of former NYS Routes. NY 448 for example, was originally part of NY 117. DanTD (talk) 21:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

These users continously undo edits that are factual and more accurate. They force users like "Road Lover" users to reedit the info.

- Please look into this, they aren't the only ones I believe.

--Check77 (talk) 20:34, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Could you please provide some diffs to some evidence? Sedd&sigma;n talk Editor Review 20:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC


 * Please do not remove other editors comments. Sedd&sigma;n talk Editor Review 20:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * If you're talking about New York State Route 454, it's you that's wrong, not Polaron and Mitchazenia. DanTD (talk) 20:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I see here Check77 inserted a badly punctuated alteration that Mitch removed and Check77 put back in. Also Check77 removed a request for evidence from a commenter to this thread.  He alters posts from other editors in talk space as well and has received multiple warnings including a final warning for vandalism.  Recommend a block for vandalism and disruption.  Durova Charge! 20:48, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have indef-blocked Check77. If anyone feels this is overkill, then feel free to reduce, but the New York route editors have been dealing with him for months, and I see no use in continuing to subject them to wasting their time with this editor, as he appears to have no intention of shaping up. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 21:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Um, yeah. Overkill, probably.  I was just asking for a block since the fellow was actively edit warring and blanking other people's posts.  Unless this is a vandalism-only account (which I don't know the subject well enough to assess), let's give this person a few chances to adjust to our standards.  Durova Charge! 21:48, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I don't know what the best course of action would be here. Some of his older contributions (and a select few of his more recent ones as well) appear to be in good faith – expanding route descriptions, albeit poorly, and the like. But he has certainly made a number of bad faith edits as well – continuing to insist that the clearly incorrect 4xx numbering scheme is right, achieving a rare 6 or 7RR on List of State Routes in New York, and starting frivolous and incoherent counterthreads on this noticeboard. Personally, while I'm not opposed to a permablock, if I were an admin (which thank God I'm not) I'd give him 24-48 h and his absolute final warning. -- Kéiryn (talk) 01:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Normally what we do is explain site norms and offer a few chances to get it right. Not an infinite number of chances, but a bit more than this if the editor may be confused rather than deliberate trolling.  Durova Charge! 04:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE: The user is back as User:Chessecake. He hasn't done anything "bad" yet under the new user name as of this writing. --Polaron | Talk 16:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * He did use it to agree with himself at one point, which is definitely against the rules for alternate accounts...--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If the userpage is not more obvious, I've indef'ed this account and have extended the block on Check77 . The contributions clearly indicate this is Check77 -- part of a long-term abuse issue. seicer &#x007C; talk  &#x007C; <font color="#669900">contribs  19:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Is James Randi Foundation website a reliable/notable source?
Hi, sorry to bother you, but there has been an on-going dispute with this, by one particuallar editor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falun_Gong#Another_example_of_POV_pushing

This dispute has discouraged and driven away some editors, so I would like to ask for an admin opinion on weitehr James Randi Foundation is a reliable/notable source, or if it's a blog disallowed by Wikipedia?

Thanks! Bobby fletcher (talk) 19:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not an admin but recommend you to solicit feedback from RS/N. In general, blogs are disallowed as a RS except in narrow circumstances.Professor marginalia (talk) 19:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * (ec)The James Randi Foundation is notable but I don't think it's a reliable source. It's self-published to begin with and James Randi is as non-neutral and prejudiced as one can get when it comes to matters of spirituality. Myself, I happen to agree with most of what he has to say but I would not use him as an encyclopedic reference. SWik78 (talk • contribs) 19:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This isn't the right forum to discuss whether a source is reliable. Try the reliable sources noticeboard, but before you post, please read the archives. Randi has been discussed many times already, so see what you can glean before posting another thread. MastCell Talk 20:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Continued Vandalism at the Viktor Rydberg Site
This is outrageous!!!

In his most recent revision, RSRadford wrote:


 * Henrik Schück wrote at the turn of the 20th century that he considered Rydberg the "last —and poetically most gifted —of the mythological school founded by Jacob Grimm and represented by such men as Adalbert Kuhn" which is "strongly synthetic" in its understanding of myth. Of this work, Nazi sympathizer and scholar Jan de Vries, said:

Now scholars who support Rydberg's mythological works are slandered as "Nazi sympathizers"?! It's bad enough that Radford has attempted to falsify the entry with accusatations that Viktor Rydberg was a criminal homosexual, a child rapist, and most recently a baby-killer, but now scholars who support him are slandered as "Nazi sympathizers." This is just one more of Radford's cheap attempts to editorialize by making serious accusatations against people no longer able to defend themselves. It is despicable! When is this nonsense going to end?

How long to we have to endure this willful vandalism of the entry by RSRAdford, an editor who shows only contempt for Viktor Rydberg and his work? Please see his online work. http://www.rydberg.galinngrund.org/ It was removed from the reference section of the entry some time ago, because it "reads like a joke" in the words of one admin. Since that time, Radford has made a concerted effort to import its origional research into the entry. Why has this been allowed to continue? Jack the Giant-Killer (talk) 20:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

POV spamming on user talk pages
Hi. Can an admin please take a look at the actions of who took it upon himself to spam the same message to multiple users, addressing them all as "Rabbi," to complain and try get his way:                with a lengthy canned message about a "Zionist offencive (sic)" and "Zionist intolerance" messages that reflect his own POV agenda. IZAK (talk) 10:50, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm offended — in part that he missed me. I guess I'm not Zionist enough for him to bother.  I noticed some of his edits suggest that a Jewish homeland should be set up in Provence?  &mdash; Arthur Rubin  (talk) 14:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I need that on my talk page. I've always wanted to be "Rabbi Rabbit". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:49, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Dammit, I missed this too? I am deeply hurt :P I also liked how he was too lazy to type out the users' names. J.delanoy <sup style="color:red;">gabs <sub style="color:blue;">adds  14:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Wabbi Wabbit? Sounds wascally. --Shirahadasha (talk) 20:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Heh-heh-heh-heh. Oops, I was channeling Elmer Fudd for a second there. :) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 23:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I must thank for for his showing anybody how productive he is. I have started an article about Yishuv haYashan and every word was challenged agressively as to fit the Zionist idealogy. Everybody knows that the Yishuv haYashan rabbi's and leaders strongly opposed Zionism and even the Hovevei Zion from the begining, because of religious reasons explained in Wikipedia articles Anti-Zionism and Haredim and Zionism and even more. This is a fact that could be verified by the sourcesI posted, by Google or any research but not neccesary since everyone here knows about it. But the Zionist writers are trying for all costs to deny it. This could be verified from the fact that a Yishuv haYashan article didn't exist, and such a Portal or WikiProject doesn't exist even today. This shows biossy on the highest standart, and they may merge with the denyers of the Holocaust. I didn't respond to the practical jokes posted here on my account, but I will if I'll be forced to. HagiMalachi (talk) 20:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Someone is adding weird stuff to my talkpage......(can't word it properly)
Allemandtando, in response to an AfD that I responded to, has posted Two disturbing messages to my talkpage. While I was gonna shurg off the first response as shenanigans, his second response is completely out of the ballpark. I would like to respond with a "WTF?!" to his delusional thoughts, but his talkpage is abit....."oppressive." Plus I have no idea what that second message means. Can another Admin figure out what the hell is going on?--293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 23:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

- it was mentioned above - it's pretty much daily. --Allemandtando (talk) 23:07, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Then I demand you apologize for accusing me on my talk page for this, because I did not write that. Your obviously being trolled by other users that are finding fun in antagonizing you and maybe were monitoring your contributions page and found that juicy bit of info to egg you with. --293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 23:12, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe it's just too late at night, but none of this makes any sense. Maybe someone could state in plain English what the issue is here. As far as the "are you still beating your wife?" maybe the IP address doesn't understand that that's an old joke, a "loaded" yes-or-no question. But its usage here is unclear. Maybe lay out the chronology so my feeble brain can understand. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The really really short version - an AFD of mine is being attacked on the grounds that it's invalid for me to tackle the warhammer 40k area or delete any articles for AFD until I've cleaned up every other pop-culture we have here (this is part of a wider monitoring of my actions by the 4chan traditional gaming forum). Which is why I pointing out to 293.xx.xxx.xx (which is an account not an IP) that I'm it's not really on to ask an editor what amounts to an "do you still beat your wife?" question. That's the start and end of it. Thankfully all of the absolute ballache that the warhammer articles have caused me with IP editors seems to be worth it because now a group of other editors have become involved and hopefully clean-up can carry on without my presence. --Allemandtando (talk) 10:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Due to your comment - "that I'm it's not really on" - what does that mean? - I still don't get the point of the "beat your wife" part. However, their apparent argument - that other pop-culture exists elsewhere so you shouldn't touch theirs - has no validity. You can't possibly change every article at once; you have to start somewhere. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Asking "why don't you clean up area X first" is an example of a loaded question (the most common example of which is "do you still beat your wife") - which is the question that the IPs and 293.xx.xxx.xx were asking. Whatever my response, I can be accused of having a vendetta against that particular fictional area because the asker can then move onto "ah-ha, you MUST have a problem with fictional area X or you'd have started with fictional area Y". That's why it's a load question because it's pretty much unanswerable. that I'm it's not really on typo on my part should be "it's not really on to"... where I'm asking the editor to refrain from asking loaded questions. I hope that's cleared that up for you. --Allemandtando (talk) 13:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * My side: Allemandtando makes AfD, I find it, question his motives. He then adds the "Wife Beater" comment to my talk page. I just ignore it. Abit later, he then adds that mysterious "it was a loaded question" spiel, so now i'm freaking out if Allemandtando is trying to provoke me into something, or he's abit unstable. When he puts on the 4chan link here, I figure out that Allemandtando is accusing me of egging him and being one of the trolls that is egging him. Which i'm denying that I put up said message and I am unanimous in it. Or something like that. Still, i'm very disturbed that Allemandtando used "wife beater" as an example when other examples would've sufficed. And I demand an apology from him for using such a tasteless example from the start. A simple "Can we agree to Disagree?" would've sufficed.--293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 12:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As Allemandtando clearly and correctly states above, the "Are you still beating your wife?" question is simply the most notorious example of a loaded question. While it might seem offensive to someone who is unfamiliar with its history, its use is not at all unusual to illustrate a "fallacy of many questions". (I'm not saying your argument was such a fallacy, but that is what Allemandtando was trying to communicate.) Please don't take it literally, or personally. — Satori Son 13:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * While strongly echoing Satori Son's comments, I would also like to add a quick piece of advice for Allemandtando: Probably don't use that expression, because even though your meaning was completely valid and all of us can see that it clearly was not a personal attack of any sort, you might want to avoid the expression so that it won't be misinterpreted out of ignorance.  For the same reasons, one should generally avoid using the word "niggardly"... --Jaysweet (talk) 16:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't quite understand because I didn't see the "why don't you clean up X first" as being a "loaded" question, but more of a "go pick on someone else" question. All's swell. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 23:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Block of User Cali567
Since Cali567 started adding a very controversial genetical study on every argentine article in reference to demographics: (eg. Argentine American, Demographics of Argentina, etc) there has been several edit wars every day, that is why I requested the full protection of Demographics of Argentina. Though there was a consensus on Demographics of Argentina she continues making her edits. User Jersey Devil and I told her that this kind of issues have to be solved on talk pages, still though she continues making her edits.

This user has been warned more than once, nevertheless I have given her the last warning for disruption. If she continues the disruption please block her. Regards, --Fercho85 (talk) 23:05, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Can I have some independent oversight here, please?
I seek to draw your attention to the following, Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/GoRight. This RFC was created under the following suspect circumstances and I would like to have some independent oversight of the process which has been used. I note the following anomalies: Objective opinions on the process being followed here would be welcome. --GoRight (talk) 23:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) The RFC appears to have been created under the radar since it was never listed as a candidate RFC.
 * 2) The party creating the RFC actively and selectively solicited comments from those who would oppose me in this action.
 * 3) The RFC 48 hour timer has expired with only one signature certifying it, albeit not the one of the person that created it.
 * 4) The parties involved are now trying to re-add it to the candidate page.
 * See resolved box. Sceptre (talk) 00:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I removed the resolved tag because I also removed the Speedy tag. The simplest way to look at this RfC is that it is in the process of being created and that process hasn't been completed. Normally, a creator creates the page and signs it and logs it, and then the clock starts ticking. However, here, the creator disappeared after creating it (next day after), and may not have realized that he did not sign it. (Or realized that and intended to return and sign and log it.) Now, technically, there was a finished page when one user signed it. But that user may not have realized the effect of signing. There are a couple of possibilities: the user who did certify it could take that signature out, and then it is clearly a page in process of being created. Better, the user accepts responsibility for he page even though he did not create it, and his signature is then the first signature, and the clock would either start from that date of signature, or from the date when he realized that there was a problem that the creator did not sign. Which is the better approach depends on circumstances I do not know.

There is another factor which should be considered. The RfC clock should not begin until the RfC is listed; until then, the creators may consider it a work in progress, not yet ready to begin. In other words, this is not an RfC yet, it is a page being edited to become an RfC. Others may help with that, and at any time it could be listed, but I'd suggest that it not be listed by an adverse party, just in order to make the clock start. Let the creator(s) of an RfC decide when it begins.

Those who favor this RfC may have screwed it up by attempts to fix it. There is another approach possible as well. Let it be deleted, which is without prejudice, and refile with two certifications when all the ducks are in a row. I suggested to GoRight, though, that GoRight certify it, if it is true that attempts were made to resolve a dispute that were unsuccessful. Is that true? --Abd (talk) 01:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your help and good faith here. You of course miss the obvious point that the originator is NOT supposed to be canvassing for support during the creation process ... but rather only after the request has been approved, if then.  At least that is the case by my reading of WP:RFC/USER.  Regardless, if we intend to allow Raul to sign after the fact, then this RFC has met the required criteria for moving to "Approved".  Please make it so.  --GoRight (talk) 02:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Upper Colorado River Endangered Fish Recovery Program
I don't exactly know where to put this issue, but there are several Anonymous IP editors who have been making POV edits to the article. Every one of the IP addresses is from the same location in Colorado. I'm not an expert on IP addresses, but it appears that one editor is trying to retain a POV version. Orange Marlin Talk• Contributions 01:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Semi protected for one month (last protection was for 2 weeks; IP (s) went right back at it). No problem with anyone extending my protection duration. <font color="#21421E" face="comic sans ms">Keeper   |  <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">76   |  <font color="#ff0000"> Disclaimer  01:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Notification of injunction relating to Giano II
The Arbitration Committee, in Requests for arbitration/Geogre-William M. Connolley, has voted to implement a temporary injunction. It can be viewed on the case page by following this link. The injunction is as follows:

"For the duration of this proceeding, is not to be blocked, or unblocked, by any administrator, other than by consent of a member of the Arbitration Committee."

As noted in the text of the injunction, this restriction is in effect until the Requests for arbitration/Geogre-William M. Connolley case is officially closed by a clerk, following a successful motion to close by the arbitrators.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Daniel (talk) 01:54, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Disruptive editor User:ChristianityMeansFreedom
I just caught this editor changing the names of Christianity and anti-Semitism related articles, without any discussion at all (let alone consensus) - an act that to me verges on vandalism. I checked this user's edit history this year and saw that every edid s/he made was mmediately reverted. At least one edit was obviously tendentious and provocative. It seems to me that this user exists only to violate WP:DIS and WP:POINT. I am inclined simply to block the user as a disruptive account ... but won't, at least not without consultation. I would appreciate other editors reviewing this editor's history of edits and suggesting what we should do. Thanks, Slrubenstein  |  Talk 23:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This edit is also unacceptable. Using a comment like "unconverted" implies a qualitative difference between Christians and Jews.  That's way outside of an encyclopedic article.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 23:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And this edit seems out-and-out anti-Semitic. I just hesitate to block someone indefinitely unilaterally. Slrubenstein   |  Talk 23:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * He doesn't seem to be amenable to correction. Pretty much every one of his edits has been to promote his own POV; he's been warned repeatedly, and has not engaged in dialog (he just blanks his talk page). --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 00:06, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * User:Smith Jones left him a notice. I've left him an ANI-notice. If it matters -- Rodhull andemu  00:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have tired to assume AGF: with this user and i have given him a templat on his page as well a a notice of this page here. maybe that will work and further sanctions willn't be neeaded. User:Smith Jones

Given that the username is disruptive and was reported to WP:UAA as such, I am blocking indef. Daniel Case (talk) 03:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Pianomanusa and User:Afusing
Ok, I may be in the wrong place, but with the circumstances I can see this being a bit ugly. First off, as I reported, was adding to a number of pages with a link to sheetmusicarchive.net. This site is very clearly a business site, charging for most of its content. All such links were reverted, and the user made only a few other edits. Now, just a bit ago, added some serious allegations to the Sheet Music page - diff - which I reverted, and got quickly reverted myself, with a somewhat incivil edit summary ("BACK OFF" and such). While I'm positive Sheetmusic Archive would be against EL policies anyway, I'm more concerned that the user may go on stating unsourced accusations against the IMSLP, especially in light of that it seems that SMA is trying to restrict sharing of clearly PD content. Maybe I should work it out first...but in light of the previous spamming, and since I really don't wanna be blocked for 3RR, I figured I'd ask for some help before hand, as I imagine the two accounts are likely related. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll keep an eye on it. I have problems with them "copyrighting" scans of public domain works -- doesn't Copyright law have some fairly specific things to say about exact reproductions?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 05:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanos Papalexis
This article is being WP:OWNed by User talk:Nemesisman and what I believe is his IP User talk:76.109.213.244 both WP:SPAs for all intents and purposes, the IP has only edited the article and the User has made a few other edits, but primarily on the article. They remove tags, revert other users edits and refuse to engage on the talk page or their own talk pages. The subject of the article is of questionable notability to begin with...if someone smarter than I am could take a look and see if they can sort out if there should be blocks, page protection, warnings, for them or a WP:Trout for me. LegoTech &middot;(t)&middot;(c) 03:17, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

(groan) Dispute getting nasty...
Could someone take a look at this, please? It took a turn for the worse when gave me a personal attack warning for this, despite a clear desire of mine that he not interact with me in my userspace.

He then referred to me (a 19-month contributor) as a newbie. Please tell us both (me and him) to shut up, officially, on the page. Thanks. <font color="#2F74FF">╟─ TreasuryTag<font color="#2F74FF">╬ contribs<font color="#2F74FF">─╢ 21:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And another dispute (I'm not involved in this one) in which Arcayne suggested that another user "got a hard-on" from arguing. <font color="#2F74FF">╟─ TreasuryTag<font color="#2F74FF">╬ contribs<font color="#2F74FF">─╢ 21:30, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You already know the solution is for you two to leave each other alone, but you want to be told this? Err.. ok, leave each other alone.  Friday (talk) 21:30, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Which he has been asked to do. Repeatedly. On other AN/I complaints where he was told the same thing. Maybe, at long last, TT can now heed that advice. -  Arcayne   (cast a spell)  22:24, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * TT, that whole dispute started getting nasty because you thought this would be a good idea. If you want Arcayne to not interact with you, I suggest you reciprocate. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl  <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  00:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought it was a good idea because how else do you suggest I find the answer to those questions? They are quite reasonable, as it is. <font color="#2F74FF">╟─ TreasuryTag<font color="#2F74FF">╬ contribs<font color="#2F74FF">─╢ 06:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not possible to choose to not interact with Arcayne. His purpose here is to control and "win" for it's own sake, using whatever it takes. Arcayne is a loose cannon that should have his own permanent section in AN/I - He is perennially locked in some bullying dispute with any one of dozens of editors or administrators. He's also an aggressive kiss-ass and political networking gladhander. Someday perhaps people will begin to string together these many, many incidents and ask, "Can everybody be wrong?" No, they can't. Arcayne is a bully whose purpose here is to game the system for his own personal gratification at the expense of nearly every Wiki tenet of civility, intellectual honesty, manners and decorum. 75.57.201.254 (talk) 02:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I'll the anon, why don't you create a subheading here and explain what's your issue with Arcayne, including specifics. Vague insults about his personality aren't going to solve anything.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * An "aggressive kiss-ass and political networking gladhander"? Omg, is the anon actually talking about me? I think no one who has ever encountered me would pair those two descriptions with my personality, like, ever. Btw, the anon appears to have been a user we blocked back in April for gaming the system to bypass admin oversight. Does anyone need those prior AN/I's? Coz, I am going to be asking for the anon range to be blocked to keep out the attack pages as soon as I have the results of the RfCU, located here. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  04:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As you know, non-specific personal attacks from IP addresses always have a high degree of credibility. Though not in this universe. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Arcayne, just ignore the insults. That was my point precisely.  Believe me, I see from the summary on my talk page here what to take when someone calls them "Unsupported claims of authority about a subject which are fraudulently offered" without any specifics.  I see from such edit summaries like "If you are an OXFORD POLI Grad as you claim you should know better", I think it's time we have to consider range blocks to stop this nonsense.  I'll add a note on the last user talk page so let's see. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, I don't really take the insults that seriously. Really, I was amused at the choice of mischaracterization, as they have never really been applied to me. The user has tried this same sort of stuff at least three times before. I just don't want him cluttering up my page with his rants, and trying to poison wells elsewhere. Still waiting on RfCU to confirm the related status so I can properly request the range block. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  14:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I apologize - here are the specifics: "With respect, I went to Oxford, so i am fairly well aware of Brit English...penultimate being the climax of the story.". Arcayne has made other claims to superior authority in the past, he has also argued forcefully over weeks with numerous editors that the EU is an NGO: "Are you seriously trying to suggest that the EU is not an NGO? ... If you consider me throwing my political science and international relations degrees at you to be derogatory, then I have to say that I am sorry you feel that way. I am not a potted plant; I know the policies of which I speak, ... - Arcayne (cast a spell) 09:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC)" I hope the specifics help.75.57.205.135 (talk) 15:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Can we just block this IP range and dispense with the user? This is his fourth or fifth IP in two days, He is likely specifically restarting his modem to shift IPS. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  16:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Could somebody review the contribs for User:Avengercrunk
I believe this a single purpose account whose only intent is to promote the Tiny Rascal Gang, an article which has been deleted (by AFD, prod & CSD) 12 different times, but which this user continues to restore. They've even tried to change their name to Tiny Rascal Gang over at WP:CU. I don't have access to the deleted history at previous versions of Tiny Rascal Gang, but I can bet that the primary (or only) contributor was this user. Thanks, Cumulus Clouds (talk) 20:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, it appears this is a sockpuppet of User:Mormoncrunk, whose contribs are identical and who was blocked 3 days ago. Could somebody review this too and decide if this warrants an indef block? Thanks, Cumulus Clouds (talk) 20:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * In light of the rename, I may not agree with G4 instead of G11, but I definitely agree with the speedy delete. This looks to be a user with an agenda. I think the indef block(s) are in order. —C.Fred (talk) 21:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This user is also probably a member or former member of the Tiny Rascal Gang (if such a gang exists), and has vandalized Brenda Paz, who was a member of MS-13, which Avengercrunk has identifed as being a "rival gang" to Tiny Rascal. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 21:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I've blocked indef as another sock of User:Mormoncrunk. Kevin (talk) 00:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * How about extending the block on User:Mormoncrunk to indef for abusing multiple accounts several times? Cumulus Clouds (talk) 09:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

POV problems with Falun Gong articles
I'm beginning to wondering if arbcom decisions are enforced at all, as according to the case on FLG: "It is expected that the articles will be improved to conform with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and that information contained in them will be supported by verifiable information from reliable sources." . These are articles seemed to be abandoned by most editors except single purpose accounts bent on pushing their agendas. I've noted a RFC here, but so far has not received any replies from a third party. Is it possible to get admin intervention to check on the POV of these articles?--PCPP (talk) 08:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * One look at the comments at Articles for deletion/Reports of organ harvesting from live Falun Gong practitioners in China (2nd nomination) shows the obvious problem.--PCPP (talk) 08:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Atlanta Braves and User:146.74.1.99
The IP address in question has been engaged in a long-term edit war over a single issue, namely the status of the Atlanta Braves' consecutive division championships. Major League Baseball recognizes their streak as 14, not 11, because the strike-shortened 1994 season had no champions. The IP address wants it otherwise, and has tried various ways to push his personal agenda. He has been warned numerous times. He's also been blocked, and then unblocked on the condition that he discuss and compromise, but he won't. Something needs to be done about this character's continual disruptive behavior. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

User: Exanimous
has threatened to edit war on (Talk:Pearl necklace (sexuality)) Pearl necklace (sexuality) by censoring an image with out an new consensus. Bidgee (talk) 08:31, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Have they filed an official declaration of edit war (document 32a)? -- Ned Scott 08:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That is to say.. I wouldn't worry about it unless he actually does edit war. Sometimes people get worked up on the talk page. -- Ned Scott 08:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Well he censored it once, and has been reverted, Bidgee's revert is 100% per policy and if Exanimous continues to try and censor the article, I will warn them to stop edit warring against policy.  MBisanz  talk 08:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * A threat to edit-war is the first step to a quick exit. Maybe that editor ought to focus on trying to come up with a better illustration? That should keep him busy for awhile. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Exanimous has again removed the image (but still linked) from the article Bidgee (talk) 03:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I have final warned the user here for continuing to censor the image with a Media:. Please note I am not endorsing the inclusion of the image in the article, merely enforcing the policy against censorship and the related policy against "spoiler" type messages.  Also, responding to Neil's concern below, the image is a free image contributed by an editor, so there is no concern with its copyright status.  MBisanz  talk 07:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) While Exanimous should be warned off edit warring, I have sympathy for his/her point, if not his/her behaviour. While I don't profess to know the answers to the questions I'm about to ask, I'll posit them anyway. What is the role of consensus here? Is the image necessary? Does it add anything? Does it help us to understand the subject? Similarly, let's broaden this to include another example of a gratuitous and distasteful image here. I remember a similar discussion a while ago about the first image at Human feces being a photo of the subject matter. That image has gone now. So what was the difference between that case and this one? I'm not in favour of censorship, but I am in favour of people reading our articles, and if the first thing you see when you open a page is an image that turns most people's stomachs and likely sends them scurrying away from the article, how does that promote the encyclopedia? AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 09:00, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That's why it has to be discussed and consensus reached. Gratuitous and distasteful are in the eye of the beholder. I might find a picture of a warthog distasteful, but it's still there. Personally, I do think those photos are gratuitous, but not particularly offensive. I've seen a lot worse. This is the internet, not a garden party. Nor is wikipedia a crazy den of warthogs. Discussion is needed, not one user's unilateral censorship. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 09:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That picture is poor, and unnecessary. Removing it isn't censorship, it's making an improvement to the article. We don't need badly clipped images from porn sites. The article itself is a dictionary definition.  It should really be merged into one article along with Facial (sex act), Cum shot, and Bukkake, and treated in an encyclopedic manner, not "omg lol we can have boobs with jizz on them and if you remove them its censorship". <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl  <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  10:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not wiktionary. Some readers might not understand the concept. Your idea of merging them all into a single article is good. Multiple articles about essentially the same topic seems excessive. Meanwhile, the complaining editor needs to get busy on producing a better photo. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Can someone take a high quality image and then release it to the PD - that would be great. thanks. --Allemandtando (talk) 10:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Where's David Shankbone now that we need him??? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict)I agree with merging however I feel it would be best to get an consensus as even if the link to the image is there same may see removing the image from the article as censorship. That way we have something to fall on if an all out war starts over the issue. My opinion is that the image shouldn't be there for many reasons but I don't let my POV get in the way of editing here and I don't remove content or images without an consensus. Bidgee (talk) 10:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) To add to my above remarks and reply to later comments, preferring not to use an image to illustrate certain human practices in no way equates to censorship. Note that the article on rape, as a good example, does not seek to help readers who might not understand the concept by providing a graphic image of it. I'm entirely in agreement with Neil. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 10:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * To equate this harmless item with rape is far more offensive than the picture in question. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Bugs, I'll have to ask you to strike that comment out, I'm afraid. I was in absolutely no way "equating this harmless item with rape". Strike your remark out now please. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 10:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Alistair, calm down - please? Bugs, I don't think Alistair was comparing this article with rape - he was, I believe, making the point that we don't necessarily need an image on every article. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl  <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  11:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict) Rape and Pearl necklace are two seperate issues. One Rape is Illegal and a graphic of anytype showing/illustrate wouldn't belong in the Rape or any Wiki article (Infact I think if anyone uploaded a photo of a rape would be charged by there own law inforcement in there own Country/State/Terriory) however Pearl necklace is legal (Unsure if it's banned any where in the World) there for showing/illustrating and image of the act isn't Illegal. Bidgee (talk) 11:12, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You make the point well. I think the comparison of this with any other bodily fluid (as someone else suggested above) is fair. To lump it into the same sentence with an illegal act is unfair. No, I do not strike my comment, because I called it as I saw it, whether you intended it that way or not. Your explanation stands here also. Let the reader judge. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 11:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Bugs, I'll ask you for a second time, politely but firmly, to strike that comment. If it needs explanation (I don't think it does, but you never know), I was talking about whether the respective Wiki articles illustrate the practices, not equating the subjects. Now, strike out your remark. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 11:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No. I called it as I saw it. I accept your explanation of what you thought you meant. I also stand by the way it read to me. And I wasn't the only one who saw it that way. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 11:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Outrageous accusation by Baseball bugs
Since you choose to up the ante, I'm going to insist on this. Your comment that "To equate this harmless item with rape is far more offensive than the picture in question" is a disgraceful slur on my character, and, to make matters worse, referring to "your explanation of what you thought you meant" seeks to portray me as somehow confused. I am not. I would never in my life seek to compare these two things. I was very obviously talking about whether Wikipedia articles choose to illustrate these two things. Now, I have asked you twice, and I will do so for a third time, strike that comment, as I will not stand for having such an outrageous accusation stand uncorrected on this page. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 11:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm commenting on your choice of words, not your character. I could likewise insist that you strike your comment that, to my eyes, equates rape with a harmless sexual act. Or, we could both take the admin's advice, and chill, bro. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 12:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * We don't have images of people being murdered either yet the article on Tomatoes quite happily shows images of the fruit. There is no need to equate this to any other article and the picture in question should simply be judged on its own merits. And I understand how one may take your comment to mean you are equating the two, that is how it sounded. But I really don't care, after all this is just the internet so relax. --The High Commander (talk) 12:12, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If you had images of tomatoes being murdered, that would be different. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 12:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * AlasdairGreen, move along. Bugs was commenting on the comparison between rape and a pearl necklace, as one activity is illegal and the other is legal. Having photographs of someone being raped is entirely unacceptable, whereas having photographs of a pearl necklace is not due to the nature of the activities. <font color="#CC0000">seicer &#x007C; <font color="#669900">talk  &#x007C; <font color="#669900">contribs  12:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This started out as a friendly discussion and it turned ugly. Ya see what sex can lead to??? >:) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 12:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It's always a bad day for me. <font color="#CC0000">seicer &#x007C; <font color="#669900">talk  &#x007C; <font color="#669900">contribs  13:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

To all of you, there is a yawning chasm between what I actually wrote and the scandalous way BB interpreted it, without I might add him even attempting the slightest good faith. Where is that supposedly sacred policy when you need it, eh? Well, since that idea is clearly out of the window, I can assume that either you have not bothered to read my remarks or you are too stupid to understand them. Whichever is the case, it's your problem, not mine. The last few hours have moved me diametrically across the spectrum from being an enthusiastic Wikipedian, with more than 20 new articles created, to a disillusioned, pissed one. Well done. So much for all the fine words about this being a community, collaborative project, assume good faith bla bla bla. And since I do not foresee myself wishing to edit anything in the near future, you may block me for these remarks with my consent. I really do not give a fuck. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 13:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, come on. Never give up. Never give in. Do you have any idea how many times I got fed up enough to quit this site? (I actually did, once.) I stick with it because I like to write about facts, and this website serves as a good outlet. Focus on the good stuff. If an editor annoys you, leave it be, if possible. Or make fun of it. That's much better for the constitution. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 13:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Alasdair, I asked you to calm down, as did Seicer. It was a minor misunderstanding, and you've worked yourself up over it. Nobody's going to block you, just take a break, get a bit of perspective; it's really not that big a deal. Bugs, the only reply I want from you is none at all - go and do something else, too. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  15:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

One of the disruptive things that some disruptive editors do is to provoke other editors into becoming angry, and then derive satisfaction as the angry editor immolates himself. There is no easy way to discriminate this from simply being straightforward with no disruptive intent, beyond seeing a pattern over many incidents. I will point out one thing, here: AlasdairGreen27 overreacted, yes, but ... that part of this incident report could have been resolved easily by Baseball Bugs making a small apology, the kind that people routinely make when they offend someone without intending to. It wasn't resolved that way, and it is not impossible that we lost an editor over this. (To be fair, Bugs made a minimal recognition that Alasdair meant his comment differently, but then went on to justify his own remark as "the way he saw it." Let me translate that into how it works: "I did nothing wrong, and that you are offended is your problem. I would do it again.") This kind of response is almost guaranteed to enrage an ordinary person in an ordinary context. Here on AN/I, we tend to be used to this, Bug's remark was mild compared to much we see. With this comment, I'm simply noting what happened. Bugs debates with editor, editor sputters as if a fuse is burning. Bugs continues to interact with editor, editor explodes. Then, Bugs rubs salt in the wound by giving editor advice about having fun. Isn't that what they sometimes say to women about what to do if raped? --Abd (talk) 22:26, 3 July 2008 (UTC) struck comment at Neil's suggestion --Abd (talk) 19:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Please dont compare something liek this to being raped. Baiting editors in wikipedia s something that happens too often in my view,s i agree with you on that but to compare what Bugs did to rape is proposterose. Smith Jones (talk) 02:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Very proposterose. Abd, suggest you strike or remove that last sentence (let's see what happens). <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl  <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  08:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 12:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:MEAT and WP:SOCK on Marburg72 RfC
The following is with regards to the RfC on Marburg 72 located here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Marburg72

It is filed by Trochos, Who has taken to recruiting friends to "endorse" the complaints. This seems to be in direct conflict with the policy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry

''Do not recruit meatpuppets. It is considered highly inappropriate to advertise Wikipedia articles to your friends, family members, or communities of people who agree with you, so that they come to Wikipedia and support your side of a debate. If you feel that a debate is ignoring your voice, then the appropriate action is to avoid personal attacks, seek comments and involvement from other Wikipedians, or pursue dispute resolution. These are well-tested processes, designed to avoid the problem of exchanging bias in one direction for bias in another.

Wikipedia has policies and processes to mitigate the disruption caused by meatpuppetry:


 * 1. Consensus in many debates and discussions is not based upon number of votes, but upon policy-related points made by editors. Newcomers are unlikely to understand Wikipedia policies and practices, or to introduce any evidence that other users have not already mentioned.
 * 2. In votes or vote-like discussions, new users tend to be disregarded or given significantly less weight, especially if there are many of them expressing the same opinion.
 * 3. For the purposes of dispute resolution, the Arbitration Committee has ruled that when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sock puppets, or several users acting as meatpuppets, they may be treated as one entity.'' Marburg72 (talk) 03:29, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Here is the evidence that Trochos is acting in violation to the applicable policy: Trochos asked Ronz on Ronz talk page to endorse this claim, as follows: Ronz, I've just put in an "Evidence of trying to resolve the dispute" summary, and your name keeps cropping up. Would you like ::to sign in the "Users certifying the basis for this dispute" section? David Trochos (talk) 19:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC) See the following for this extensive recruitment evidence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/David_Trochos http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AKbh3rd&diff=223398909&oldid=221699896 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ACJLippert&diff=223398409&oldid=222091728 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AItsmejudith&diff=223387983&oldid=222958028 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3APaul_Barlow&diff=223387620&oldid=222972926 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AClovisPt&diff=223386427&oldid=222876449 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3APhlegm_Rooster&diff=223369392&oldid=223014893 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARonz&diff=223367856&oldid=223366774

Here Ronz stated that his involvement with this was upon a request for "Help". http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AMarburg72&diff=223403410&oldid=223312101 Marburg72 (talk) 03:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Ronz later reverted this statement, and said that it was from the Fringe accusations page located here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AMarburg72&diff=223416239&oldid=223412775 Marburg72 (talk) 03:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Further indirect evidence of recruitment on behalf of the other involved party that is verifying this complaint by the name of DougWeller- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Leoboudv&action=history
 * Leoboudv (talk) page shows that this user is friends with Weller and Trochos has had a long history of prior discussions with him, this is again in direct conflict with MEAT PUPPET policy.
 * In addition, Shot Info, the other user that has "endorsed" the claim quickly, has a long history of discussions with Ronz. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Shot_info&limit=500&action=history Marburg72 (talk) 03:38, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Continued meat puppetry and recruiting on behalf of Doug : http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AGwen_Gale&diff=223522358&oldid=223521966 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marburg72 (talk • contribs) 12:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

For the purposes of dispute resolution, the Arbitration Committee has ruled that when there is uncertainty whether a party is one user with sock puppets, or several users acting as meatpuppets, they may be treated as one entity.

Please review the standard for WP:SOCK and WP:MEAT. I do not feel that this recruitment to verify Trochos and Wellers claims against me are abiding by Wikipedia policy.Marburg72 (talk) 02:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * How interesting Marburg72. I post a single message noting your removal of a book by a reliable source the University of Illinois at   and specifically here and you quickly accuse me of all being a meat/sockpuppet. Of course, you don't mention your behaviour at all in deleting the University of Illinois book reference. Removal of reliable sources can constitute a form of vandalism. Just because you have a point of view doesn't mean you can remove sourced references that may conflict with your viewpoint. Without reliable sources, Wikipedia's credibility is called into question. I am certainly no one's puppet. I checked your edits before I made my statement. I saw these edits by you in which you implicitly accused two well respected scholars, Fowler and Young, of bias and racism toward native Indians regarding the Cahokia mounds  and  but I ignored it. I mention it now for an Admin to inspect. For full disclosure, I have made zero edits to the Cahokia mounds article and am no one's puppet on this subject. But I dislike being attacked for being called someone's puppet. As an Aside, Marburg72's behaviour towards others is simply abhorrent.  Regards, Leoboudv (talk) 04:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If you were at all familiar with the topic or discussion, it would be clear to you that the source on Mound 72 by Fowler states nothing of this speculative theory.Marburg72 (talk) 12:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There is a similar complaint, although of sockpuppetry only, at . I've said that that I can't understand why he would accuse me of being a sockpuppet. He has, for instance, twice mentioned by personal website. I think a better understanding of policy and guidelines by Marburg72 might have avoided all these problems Doug Weller (talk) 07:16, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Doug has also attempted to recruit here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Kbh3rd#User:Marburg72__and_Cahokia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marburg72 (talk • contribs) 12:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Doug has continued adding personal attacks to the Monk's Moiund page here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMonk%27s_Mound&diff=223521614&oldid=223520148 Marburg72 (talk) 12:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I've just looked at 'Trochos's' edits mentioned above, and he seems to be contacted editors who have been involved with Marburg72 and says "f you would like to add any comments, under the headings "Other users who endorse this summary", or "Outside view" or in the "Users who endorse this summary:" at the end of Marburg72's "Response" section, please do so". Isn't it reasonable to invite editors with some experience of the editor in question to comment? And, just as Marburg72 seems to be watching other people's contributions, other people are probably watching mine or those of Trochos, so there should be no surprise if some of them decide to take a look at the RfC. Doug Weller (talk) 07:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm leaving this and the sock-puppetry complaint to the judgement of the admins. David Trochos (talk) 07:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * WP:SSP is that-away ---> Coldmachine Talk 09:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * If anyone does notice Marburg72's accusation of 'continued meatpuppetry and recruiting', this refers to my actions after I discovered he had deleted text he didn't like from an article's talk page and I asked a completely uninvolved Admin to step in. He ignored the Admin's warnings, kept deleting (4 times in all) after being warned that he would be blocked. Doug Weller (talk) 13:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Two IP's making hard to spot and long term vandalism
66.139.242.2 and 69.1.169.130 are vandalizing the Pan-African article, and others, with subtle and repeated edits very hard to fix. I think we have to check carefully all their edits, because I found old vandalism that wasn't fixed. --PeterCantropus (talk) 09:18, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Please could you provide some WP:DIFFs to demonstrate the alleged abuse? Also, as a non-administrator, you shouldn't be using block tags as you did here and here. Papa November (talk) 09:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I've taken a look at the edits you reverted, and this looks more like a content dispute. There's no obvious vandalism there.  Papa November (talk) 09:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I didn't know I couldn't use block tags. I found it suspicious that an anon IP was rewriting large portions of the article, without adding sources. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm quite new here. --PeterCantropus (talk) 10:43, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Unregistered users are entitled to contribute, just as registered users are. You may want to put a fact tag after any controversial comments, but these edits don't really appear to be vandalism.  You can read WP:VAND for a list of things that aren't vandalism, and how to deal with them.


 * Only admins can block people - the block templates only display a message (they don't actually block the user). so placing a "you have been blocked" message on a talk page will only serve to confuse them, if they are still actually able to edit!


 * I'll mark this as resolved here, but send me a message if you need further help/explanations. Papa November (talk) 10:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit war at Celebrations of the September 11, 2001 attacks
Could we please get some uninvolved admin help at . With it being the holiday here in the US, I believe an editor with a significant CoI is trying to take advantage of the timing to perform a purge clothed as a merge. The talk page has all the gritty details. Thanks. --StuffOfInterest (talk) 12:24, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Protected for two days to force discussion. A bad day to do something so contentious. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl  <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  13:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Block evasion by blocked sock-puppetier
It is highly probable that User:Jacurek is revert warring and evading his 4 month block for socking, block evasion and disruption as IP 154.20.146.225 at History of Jews in Poland. Besides the same pattern of editing, most convincing evidence that IP 154.20.146.225 and Jacurek is the same editor is here: Jacurek forgets to sign his post at talk page, IP 154.20.146.225 comes to sign it minutes later , and vice versa edit by IP 154.20.146.225 signed minutes later by Jacurek. Also checkuser is highly desired on IP 70.79.12.228, which comes from the same geographical area as IP 154.20.146.225, and shows the signs of Jacurek's editing pattern. M0RD00R (talk) 14:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Abuse of adminship by User:Cryptic; requesting recall of his adminship
I politely requested he userfy an article and he responded by calling me a "spoiled child," which if not a personal attack is at least downright incivil as a response to a polite request which is why I gave him a warning. He responded by blocking me for "trolling" without any warning, without acknowledging that maybe his reply to a polite request was a bit unfriendly, and without even explaining on my talk page. Obviously, since I am commenting here, this block has been overturned after disapproval by multiple others (see, , and ). Again, blocking without warning, let alone responding to a polite request in such a disrespectful fashion, is totally unacceptable for an admin. Moreover, claiming he did it to prove a "point" seems a violation of WP:POINT. Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles Tally-ho! 01:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Seems like the block was punitive and ill-advised. Still, no wheel warring after it's release. though I am not an administrator, I'm not sure as to what can be done about it now. <font color="#660000">Wisdom89  ( <font color="#17001E">T |undefined /  <font color="#17001E">C ) 01:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't believe User:Cryptic is a member of the group of administrators open to recall. I would suggest a RfC/Admin Conduct, and provide further information. The block was bad, and response not much better, I agree, but you'll need more then 1 bad incident to be taken seriously if you're going to put in a request to recall/desysop him. SirFozzie (talk) 02:00, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The accusation of trolling probably stemmed from the fact that you gave an tenured admnistrator a "welcome to Wikipedia" warning, which probably was viewed as a deliberate slight. Although, I presume it was just an oversight. <font color="#660000">Wisdom89  ( <font color="#17001E">T |undefined /  <font color="#17001E">C ) 02:05, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * We have tenure? Awesome! &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Son of the Defender  02:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, not in that sense. <font color="#660000">Wisdom89  ( <font color="#17001E">T |undefined /  <font color="#17001E">C ) 02:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * When someone is tenured, they're hard to get rid of. Some folks resort to assassination, but that gets messy and can cause legal trouble. My usual approach is to ring their doorbell and run away. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't really warn editors that much and so when I went to the warning template page looking for an appropriate warning, I wanted to go with the lowest level one I could find and so just went with that template. In any event, AfDs and DRVs, as far as I am aware, are supposed to be discussions, not votes, i.e. discussions in which we engage and interact with each other.  How does he respond to a discussion?  Well, instead of say commenting on the topic under discussion, he comments on me instead.  Now, it's not just with me.  Notice this edit summary, which seems to be something of an assumption of bad faith.  See also: confrontional comment, losing cool, unconstructive edit summary, etc., and from a quick look, it seems with ease I can find more if necessary, i.e. a rather unhelpful and unfriendly manner of dealing with others, which is totally unbecoming of an admin.  Plus, looking at his own block log, the self blocks of thinking "MSK's unblock shows the system's still broke" and "clearly too stressed still to be around people yet" are also somewhat wikidramatic and seem a bit of a concern for an admin.  Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 02:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hasn't Arbcom already set precedent in this sort of matter? --Cube lurker (talk) 02:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * While an Arbcom decision is indicative of what Arbcom may do in the next similar situation, their decisions are non-binding, and do not set precedents. --Badger Drink (talk) 23:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

If we start approaching this as tenure, then really RfA is just an opportunity for a tenure-track position, with, say, quarterly or bi-annual reviews. At the end of six-twelve months the review board (bureaucrats) can decide whether you become tenured; if so, you are no longer open to recall. Mackensen (talk) 02:24, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * This bock and subsequent discussion here seems to go along with this one. Just pointing it out. Wizardman  02:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The thing is that regardless of what happens here, I now have a block on my log that I should not have, which is why for preventative purposes so that he does not abuse the tools again, I suggest one or more of the following as possible solutions: 1) some kind of similar length short block of his account; 2) loss of adminship; and/or 3) an apology. Now as far as how I approach AfDs and DRVS, I set up a while ago a table at User:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles/Deletion discussions with the hope of receiving constructive suggestions at User talk:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles/Deletion discussions.  Insults like this are not going to convince anybody of anything. Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 02:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * (keeping this short to avoid an EC, although I'm not an admin and have little standing to comment) The last time LGRdC was creating massive drama in this forum was Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive424, where he claimed that he was so ill (kaff … kaff) that he would have to take a wikibreak, and all he wanted before he left was for another user to be blocked. Well, the other user was blocked, and, mirabile dictu, LGRdC came back a couple of days later as well as could be. Is there no one who can see this person for the lawyering, passive-aggressive, disruptive user that he is? Deor (talk) 02:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You really are going to mock someone for when they were sick?! Seriously?! As far as disruptive, maybe you should re-look at your own incivil personal attacks: and . Which is odd, given my multiple attempts to be nice and cooperative with you:, , etc. Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 02:48, 26 June 2008 (UTC) --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 02:48, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 'Waah, an admin has reminded me that I'm being a dick; quick, kick him out!' Half  Shadow  02:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * HalfShadow, retract that personal attack, please. Deor, this is rather bizarre behavior from the two of you.. what gives? SirFozzie (talk) 02:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but arbcom has clearly stated that blocks are not to be used in disputes, much less to "remind someone they're a 'dick'"--Cube lurker (talk) 02:53, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, too, but I'm not going to retract anything. Giving an admin a welcome template as a response to a failure to userfy an article is just not in the cards. Block me too, if you want; the spectacle of sysops falling all over themselves to accommodate the Pumpkin's every wish is just more than I can stand. Deor (talk) 03:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * And, for the record, I deny that either of the diffs that Pumpkin linked to above constitute "incivil personal attacks". This is my last contribution to this thread. Deor (talk) 03:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I gave him a warning for making a personal attack. I am not asking admins to "fall all over themselves to accomodate me", but to prevent future bad blocks. I'm not looking for revenge or something, just reassurance that such things won't happen in the future. Jumping into this discussion just like you did at the one you linked to previously does not help. And as I've said, it is really disappointing that you continue to be mean to my even though I have tried to be nice to you. Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles Tally-ho! 03:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * For the record, how is this being a "dick"? Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 02:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * For the record: he told you 'no', then, when he expanded on that because you didn't like the terminology he used, you first templated him and now you're suggesting he be de-sysopped. Admins do all the work around here and I'm tired of seeing them be dumped on because your feelings have been hurt. Half  Shadow  03:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * After he said, "no," I politely explained my request. Did it really justify this response?  As for the allegation against me, I respectfully asked the deleting admin about the closure and he suggested I go to DVR, which I did.  Trying to talk to admins politely should not receive such a harsh response.  And it's not about my "feelings," but a concern of this kind of thing happening again to anyone, not just me.  Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 03:16, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If that's to me that's why I added the single 'quotes'--Cube lurker (talk) 03:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Regardless of LGRdC's present and past behavior, Cryptic should not have blocked him himself simply for templating him, even if that's not exactly the friendliest thing to be doing. If LGRdC is behaving unacceptably, I'd suggest a user RFC or other steps in dispute resolution. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 02:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I up a while ago a table at User:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles/Deletion discussions with the hope of receiving constructive suggestions at User talk:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles/Deletion discussions. Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 02:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm with Morven here (shock). Y'all got into a spat and Cryptic made a bad block. It's not a blockable offense to template the regulars but it's an act of shocking tactlessness that leaves me feeling rather unsympathetic. Mackensen (talk) 03:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It may not be the nicest thing to "template a regular" but that's one of the worst blocks I've seen in quite some time. Cryptic needs to offer a full explanation. - <font color="#000080">auburn <font color="#CC5500">pilot  talk  03:05, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Seems pretty self-evident, doesn't it? By explanation, do you actually mean apology? Because you're can't compel one of those. Mackensen (talk) 03:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * As I said above, I don't really warn people and just went with what seemed the tamest one on the warnings page after he made this edit. Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles Tally-ho! 03:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That's no kind of an answer--you've been here a few years and appear to have a grasp of the language. Mackensen (talk) 03:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Honestly, with regards to warnings for comments like that would you suggest I do? Is it appropriate to give some kind of warning and if so what?  Yes, I have been here for a while, but there is a good deal I haven't worked on or really think I know a lot about.  Warnings are one area that I haven't really worked on; plus, I did not check his contrib history to see how long he's been around.  So, I know for the future, what would be the way to go when someone calls you a "spoiled child"?  Thanks.  Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 03:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You say, "Hey, please don't engage in personal attacks." or "That was uncalled for, I'll ask a different admin." I think that is what is meant by not using templates and you having command of the language ;-) <strong style="color:#000">Avruch 03:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Is it ever okay to warn admins? Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 03:26, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Being an admin doesn't really play into it - its generally considered impolite to template anyone but a newbie, there is a page about it at WP:DTTR. <strong style="color:#000">Avruch 03:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry but that's kind of funny. Try to ues an essay in an afd and you get berated for it because it has no weight.  Violate another in user space you get blocked.--Cube lurker (talk) 03:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * While the block was uncalled for and definitely not appropriate, LGRdC's actions aren't exactly perfect either. I think emotions were high on both sides, and frankly, LGRdC, despite the civility he conducts his discussions with, often irritates or aggravates users with his rationales. In this light, I could see Cryptic taking a templated message (to an administrator, really? That's really tactless) as trolling. This naturally does not excuse his conduct, and he should have been cool-headed despite the situation, but this is probably the situation he felt he was getting into. That said, going back to the original intent of the thread, you're not going to get him dysopped for this. Nowadays, the requirement for revoking adminship is more or less massive OMG drama that ends up at ArbCom, which this definitely is not. <font face="Verdana"> Sephiroth BCR ( Converse ) 03:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Sephiroth, as I said above, I saw a personal attack or incivil comment and thought the correct response was to post some kind of warning message. While I do welcome a lot of editors, I really don't warn them unless it's the anon vandal warning template when I revert first time vandalism. If you look at the discussion that brought us here, I made a really polite request and responded to his initial response in a still respecftul manner. If admins look at the contribution history of the article in question, you'll see that it was one that I was indeed in the process of make serious revisions to. As for revoking adminship, it was just one of a few ideas presented above as a possible preventitive measure. In any event, the weather sirens are going off here as we have a tornado warning. So, with that, I guess good bye for now. And again, anyone is invited to my deletion talk page indicated above to offer constructive criticisms and advice. Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles Tally-ho! 03:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Regardless, your response to an uncivil comment was a templated message, which again, is really tactless, and users can take it the wrong way. If someone gives an actual response (regardless of the civility), and you respond with a template, then it's basically like a slap in the face. You're implying (not that I'm saying you were implying this, which you weren't; however, this is how it's taken most of the time) that you don't want to waste time to write an actual message and you're simply falling back to templated messages to end the conversation. Again, I'm not saying your intent was wrong or that the block was justified (quite the contrary); however, you have to admit that it was a rather tactless act, especially for a user such as yourself that has been here for so long and should be familiar with such things. <font face="Verdana"> Sephiroth BCR ( Converse ) 09:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, and I appreciate your comments, but I really have not done much in the way of warning users other than with the anon-vandal welcome (in my over 20,000 edits, there's maybe a handful and none that I can easily find at present) and I was honestly stunned by his reaction as usually when I ask someone if they would userfy something, they respond in a friendly and helpful manner. As another example of a positive such discussion, please see User talk:Sandstein where I accepted a compromise.  So, you can imagine why I for one might be taken aback by Cryptic's reaction to my request, but again, I did not add the warning template into the discussion until after he called me a "spoiled child," which I believed merited some kind of civility warning and I thought I was going with the lowest level and tamest one on the page.  Also, before giving him the warning, I did not check his edit history to see how long he's been around.  In any event, it really is not that hard to interact in these kinds of discussions in a civil and respectful fashion and as you can see in these examples, I asked, I did not demand and in the latter, I accepted a compromise.  Plus, it is frustrating that someone would react in such a manner, because as you know, sure I may disagree quite strongly with editors in discussions, but even though say you and I have had some strong disagreements in AfDs and DRVs, I still occasionally look for somewhere where I might be able to help you or get along a la User talk:Sephiroth BCR so that it is clear any discussion disagreements are not personal or anything.  I have done such things for a number of editors I have disagreed with.  I guess it would be nice if some of those with whom I disagree would also take these kinds of proactive steps.  I appreciate that you responded nicely in the aforementioned case: User talk:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles.  Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 17:46, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi, dropping a few words as someone who's worked with Roi a long time (both antagonistically and cooperatively--check his block log). As far as I can tell, Roi rarely does the template thing and probably wasn't aware that templating an established editor is considered rude. A word to the wise is sufficient: sysop or not, when someone's been around a while the custom is to open a dialog. Would someone consider doing a one second block to notate his block log, if he's amenable? It wasn't a blockable action, and one bad block almost never leads to recall (almost--check my ops history). The bottom line here for those who don't know him is that Roi is an inclusionist; a scrupulously polite editor who didn't used to play by the rules but learned his lesson and who expects those who have different wikiphilosophies from his to play by the rules too. Durova Charge! 03:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * As an admin, given the community's trust, doesn't cryptic need to address this, he knows this thread is here. --Cube lurker (talk) 03:48, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * [did it myself - nvm! Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)]
 * It is my hope that for anyone who has any advice for me to make use of the chart I made at User:Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles/Deletion discussions and to offer constructive ideas on that pages talk page. In any event, regarding that user, please note that an admin has already said as much.  Best, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 04:45, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Cryptic should accept an appropriate punishment and in future try not to perform privileged tasks which might be perceived as emotive. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The thing that really had me here is that usually when I ask someone if they would userfy something, they respond in a friendly and helpful manner. As another example of a positive such discussion, please see User talk:Sandstein where I accepted a compromise.  So, you can imagine why I for one might be taken aback by Cryptic's reaction to my request, but again, I didn't add the warning template into the discussion until after he called me a "spoiled child."  In other words, it really isn't that hard to interact in these kinds of discussions in a civil and respectful fashion and as you can see in these examples, I asked, I didn't demand and in the latter, I accepted a compromise.  Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 05:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Cryptic responded very rudely to a very reasonable request (and I think someone else should see to it that the deleted article gets userfied for him); templating him for that was a misstep, but a minor one. For Cryptic to then block Roi was a huge misstep, however, and calls into question his suitability for adminship. Everyking (talk) 05:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Wizardman has userfied it for me. Best, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 05:38, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Repeated rudeness and a retaliatory block is troubling, I agree. Let's hope it was just a one-off by someone who was having a bad day.  If it becomes a pattern, the thing to do would be to open an admin conduct RFC.  Durova Charge! 06:00, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, we can condemn his action all we want, but this is really too far. We all agreed it was a bad action, end it at that. If it does it again, file an RfC on his conduct. If it continues past that, go to ArbCom. Trying stuff like that isn't constructive and really, is just plain rude. <font face="Verdana"> Sephiroth BCR ( Converse ) 09:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Bstone hectoring Cryptic like that does not help anyone, particularly Bstone. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  10:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Why should there be something wrong with asking someone to resign their adminship? Everyking (talk) 10:45, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not what he said, it's how he said it. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  10:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If Cryptic was open to recall, that would be reasonable. Cryptic isn't in the category, so probably doesn't consider himself open to recall.  It is a poorly worded request; it starts from the invalid assumption that Bstone has a right to make the request.  GRBerry 13:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I am unaware of any policy saying that editors cannot ask an admin to resign. DuncanHill (talk) 15:26, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I politely, formally and civilly asked Cryptic to resign his admin position. I did not attack him, make over the top accusations or use any manner of hyperbole. It was a simple, formal request. He is free to ignore it. However, GRBerry, I am looking for a policy which might be titled "Non-admins are forbidden from asking admins to return their position", but I cannot find it. Can you point me to it? If it exist I shall offer a full retraction and formal apology to Cryptic. Bstone (talk) 16:09, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Bstone, going around politely, formally, and civilly asking admins to resign their bit, (or asking editors to leave the project, for another example) is neither constructive nor helpful, policy or no policy. Where I agree with you is that it's allowed. Policy doesn't prohibit you from being civilly rude. ---Sluzzelin talk  17:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand the "every admin gets one free" attitude so prevalent around here. I'm all for forgiveness and understand that we all make mistakes every once in awhile, but Cryptic has not yet been an acknowledged that what he did was out of line. Of course, we can never force someone to apologize, but we sure can take away his admin tools if he doesn't address this issue before when he starts blocking again. Hi DrNick ! 12:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Contributors are humans with lives; Cryptic has not contributed for several hours now. 2) One of the early steps in dispute resolution is disengaging; before heading off (to bed?) he acknowledged the thread, and appears to be intentionally choosing not to participate in it.  This is reasonable. GRBerry 13:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with point 1 totally, and did not intend to give the impression that I'm advocating swift action. I just think that this issue should be considered unresolved until it is addressed by Cryptic in due course.  Editors above are saying, for example, "we all agreed it was a bad action, end it at that."  It should not end at that.  As a community, we should be unwilling to "agree to disagree" with Cryptic's implicit position that block was justified.  I think most reasonable people would be content to let it drop if and only if Cryptic acknowledges that it was in fact a bad block, but this feeling that "it was a bad block, he's unblocked now, get over it" is unsatisfactory.  If Cryptic refuses to acknowledge that the block was flawed and should not have been made, it should be addressed by the Arbitration Committee, and ultimately a steward.   Hi DrNick ! 16:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I doubt any admin goes around with a smile and a get-out-of-one-bad-block-free card wondering when to play it. Sysops get pulled in six different directions at once.  Administrators get headaches, catch the flu, stay up until the wee hours trying to get stuff accomplished on Wikipedia.  On the right side a chorus yells don't you edit articles anymore? while each time the sysop starts a GA drive other people tug at the left sleeve.  Admins are expected to have the wisdom of Solomon when dinner is about to burn in the kitchen.  Slicing the Gordian knot isn't enough; admins are expected to remove it surgically.  And in return for this unpaid labor, they sometimes get compensated in curses or worse.  After a while--being human--chances are an admin will flub something once.  If it becomes a pattern, yes, the community addresses it.  But flubbing something once is called being human.  Durova Charge! 10:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

You know, I really wish that Badlydrawnjeff was still active. He'd be a good advisor to Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles. They share a philosophy, but jeff was a lot better at communicating and working with those who disagreed with him. GRBerry 13:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to bring up a completely separate issue involving Cryptic that I feel is quite similar to the one being presented here, but shows pattern. I've been trying to get an explanation from Cryptic for almost two months now as to why they had placed a block on my account for a couple of days without any discussion, notice, or warning. Since then, I've asked several times for them to bring clarity to the issue, but have received little to no feedback from Cryptic. I've hunted for quotes to policies and have even brought up examples of other users with the same "violation" Cryptic very briefly claimed I made, but have gotten absolutely no response. To me, this, along with the new incident, shows a solid history of poor communication and abuse of admin tools by Cryptic. I would like to see these issues with Cryptic escalated as well. What can be done? Roguegeek (talk) 15:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * See what Durova said: "If it becomes a pattern, the thing to do would be to open an admin conduct RFC." Carcharoth (talk) 15:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The block wasn't a particularly defensible thing in this instance, although it could be argued that the templated warning, while understandable, wouldn't likely win friends. I think the trout might be the best option here for this single instance, but, if it were found to continue in the future, an RfC would be reasonable. John Carter (talk) 17:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What you're addressing here, John, is a report of a second instance (unrelated to Le Grand Roi's template warning and block). <strong style="color:#000">Avruch 18:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ouch. I stand corrected. The comment by Roguegeek could stand a lot of better information as to what the specifics of the matter being discussed are. However, even taking that second instance into account, we still have only two instances. For the step being requested here, that might be a bit extreme. Although ArbCom would definitely be an option here, and I don't want to speak for them, I would think two could still be marginally acceptable, although some sort of formal notification of his conduct being specifically called into question would be reasonable as well. If a third instance were to arise, particularly after specific warnings regarding such conduct are made, then there would be much less question or defense of such action. John Carter (talk) 19:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * At a quick glance, the Roguegeek block is related to several pages like this being deleted numerous times and Roguegeek re-creating them each time. But Roguegeek's talk page history shows a distinct lack of activity around the date of the block, May 3, 2008.  Some discussion is here but I see no hint of pre-block warning.  Roguegeek's deleted contribs (admin only) show re-creation edit summaries of "why are my own templates being deleted?" which are a little sad.  Unless I'm missing something, I'm not real fond of how that went down.  User templates deleted, the user not understanding why and re-creating, twice, three times, four times, still no discussion - and then block.  No deletion explanation (until after the fact), no block warning, not even a note to say that the user was blocked!  Peculiar at best.  —Wknight94 (talk) 20:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Honestly, all I'm looking for is understanding and have gotten zero help from the user in question. And yes, I was upset about the block with no discussion what so ever. I just happen to stumble upon this conversation and thought to myself, "hey I have a similar experience." I'm still actually needing some advice that I'll take to a different discussion page. I just thought it'd be helpful in this specific discussion to show a little more history from a complete separate instance. Thoughts? Roguegeek (talk) 20:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Admins are here to serve our editors and readers, not vice versa. One inappropriate block (Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles) is bad, two (Roguegeek) is unacceptable and then stonewalling Roguegeek's requests for an explanation takes it all over the top; I'm losing confidence in Cryptic's suitability to be an administrator. --<font face="Futura">A. B. (talk • contribs) 20:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I see now that Cryptic did respond to Roguegeek although I still consider the block to be very out of line. --<font face="Futura">A. B. (talk • contribs) 21:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I have a vague memory that there was some central discussion about deleting such "voting" templates, but I may be wrong there. That's beside the point, though. Cryptic absolutely should have communicated with Roguegeek about all this. Unless Cryptic can point out where this was discussed, why he blocked, and why there was no follow up, then there is a problem here. Admins have to be approachable, otherwise the whole system breaks down. Carcharoth (talk) 20:53, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * My concerns here do extend beyond the incivil reaction to a polite request and the subsequent block when I warned him for his comment to me, which again I got from Template messages/User talk namespace and I went with the Level 1 for "Personal attack directed at a specific editor," as I thought apparently incorrectly it would be the tamest reaction to go with for what I thought was a first time thing. In actuality there seems to be some kind of longer-term frustration he has regarding Deletion Review discussions.  For the larger context, please note that Cryptic blocked himself for a month on 2 April 2008 under the rationale of "clearly too stressed still to be around people yet".  Several comments in Deletion Reviews this year seem to confirm that.  See for example "Doesn't anybody bother to check google anymore?,"  (seven editors arguing to keep in an AfD is not "near complete consensus" and the crux of the comment focuses on an editor rather than the article under discussion), mildly sarcastic tone, says "Utter disgust" as part of his comment, note edit summary, says that "It physically pains me to complete this mangled review request," claimed clear consensus in DRV that ultmately closed as relist for an AfD that ultimately did not result in the article being deleted, "Like, y'know..." seems confrontational, use of "lazy" seems unnecessary, and calls the AfDs "nauseating" when again the article ultimately was not outright deleted.  You'll note that I did not participate in a number of those DRVs, so it is not just a him and me thing by any means, but rather what seems to be increased frustration with DRVs in general.  Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 06:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * While you may well have a legitimate complaint (I haven't looked into the issue enough to really say), this list of diffs you present here really seems to be scraping the bottom of the barrel. I won't go over them point-for-point, but just as an example, yes, "Doesn't anybody bother to check google anymore?" is a legitimate question when a copyvio ends up on DRV, as indeed both the nominator and closer seem to have agreed.  —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 20:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * They all add up and given the self-blocks for such things as "clearly too stressed still to be around people yet" and a couple of questioned blocks raised here, there seems to be a bit of reacting with emotion that is a concern for someone having admin tools. There are other somewhat angry or short replies to questions by others as well, but I did not want to just pile on the diffs against someone.  They do nevertheless show a pattern of what seems like increasing annoyance having editors question his deletions.  Even if some of these questions are legitimate, they can be worded in a more polite manner.  For the example you mention, one could say simply, "I notice that Google is a good tool for checking for copy vios and I happened to find this one there."  Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 05:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see where immediate admin action is called for. However I see reasonable evidence that Cryptic's conduct as an admin has been questionable in at least a couple cases. Taking this to a user conduct RFC might be a better venue than here. Friday (talk) 21:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I've raised my primary concern at User talk:Cryptic. The previous discussion can still be seen at User talk:Cryptic. From what I can tell the sequence was that Cryptic deleted a series of user templates, and when they were recreated he blocked instead of trying to explain why they were deleted. After the block had expired, the user (who seems not to have realised they were blocked until after the block expired) came back and asked again, and Cryptic then explained and pointed to some deletion discussions. The problem is that this was all in the wrong order. From what I can see, the block was a heavy-handed way to get a message across. If Cryptic can explain his actions, we may be able to avoid a user conduct RfC. Carcharoth (talk) 21:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree, let's not rehash any of this any more until Cryptic is active and can respond. Like everybody else, I too have some concerns about the two incidents in question -- but without Cryptic being here to respond, this is just a pointless pile-on. --Jaysweet (talk) 21:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * one of the requirements for being an admin is not to have excessive sensitivity to personal criticism. anyone who would block after a relatively innocuous template, with a background of incivility otherwise to confirm its not an isolated incident, should be desysopped. the Tango arb case cited is very much to the point here. Further, this admin is one of the few remaining ones without email enabled, and it's deliberate. I don't accept his excuse of privacy--the same reason applies to everyone, & the rest of us tolerate it. If he doesn't trust gmail, there are alternatives. (
 * As for the matter giving rise to the block, personally, I've been templated several times, sometimes in good faith, sometimes not, and I can;t figure out why it should bother me very much. If our templates are too rude, it is a matter that affects everyone. After all, why shouldn't established editors follow the same rules as everyone else and get the same warnings if they do something that an editor thinks wrong? If we want to prohibit it, we should try to adopt a policy decision to that effect, WT:DTTR is just an essay, and I hope and expect it wouldn't pass. If someone wants to take it as policy, it even says: "Having said this, those who receive a template message should not assume bad faith regarding the user of said template. They may not be aware how familiar the user is with policy, or may not consider it rude themselves. They may also simply be trying to save time by avoiding writing out a lengthy message that basically says the same thing as the template, which is, after all, the purpose of a template." so its not just a block in a personal dispute, its a block without any support in policy either.
 * Sure, let's wait for a response, but the only response I think likely to improve the situation is a long wikibreak or surrendering the mop. DGG (talk) 00:22, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

His refusal to respond to any of this stuff is quite telling, I think. Wizardman 16:33, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm absolutely disgusted by the actions of Cryptic. Lately this user has broken a handful of policies. By being very uncivil to someone, unjustly blocking someone, and failing to communicate this user has not only broken the administrator code of conduct, but also WP:CIVIL. Clearly some action needs to be taken for these violations of policies, but I don't think taking the tools away for him is justified. Beside recently, he seemingly doesn't have a history of abuse.


 * I think he should be banned from using the tools for a while. Due to the seriousness of abusing the tools, only blocking him for a few days seems to be not enough. 1 or 2 weeks would send a strong message to him. If this behavior continues, then he should have the tools removed. I don't know if the community can give partial blocks. I know they can give full blocks, but I'm not sure about partial ones.--SJP (talk) 04:15, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm troubled by this contributor's apparent lack of activity (Nothing since June 25) and everyone's interpretation of it. It is entirely possible that he's on wikibreak (a bit convenient, but WP:AGF works both ways) and forgot to template it. He may feel really bad about his actions and be afraid/ashamed of editing. I don't know him, so I can't really judge that. In any case, I think he should be given an opportunity to defend himself/apologize before anything happens to him. If he resumes editing, we can assume he has read or will read his talk page, which has multiple links here. If not, the issue becomes moot. Until then, I think this discussion should be put on hold as unresolved. If he doesn't come back in a reasonable amount of time, he can be provisionally/temporarily desysopped since dormant accounts don't keep their bits. -- Thin boy  00  @261, i.e. 05:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello, this worries me. Some one brought it up on Cyptic's talk page here. I find it troublesome that the blocked individual had no idea he had been blocked. When users are blocked we hope they learn from their mistake; how good is the block if the blocked user comes back asking (in good faith, as is evident by her edit) why she was blocked? This block seems like a punishment. Perhaps the admin is stressed at the moment? It happens to all of us, but he should at least leave a note here about all this? Brusegadi (talk) 07:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Brought this ongoing and unresolved discussion back from archive. Roguegeek (talk) 17:15, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It's clear that Cryptic is being aggressive, but some confusion might have been avoided by sticking to the general rule that it's a good idea to leave hand-written personalized complaints for established users - warning someone who's obviously not a newbie is not a blockable offense but is kind of weird. Dcoetzee 21:51, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If our notices are too rude for established users, they are too rude for newbies. If personal discussions are best for explaining things to established editors, this applies all the same to newbies. There's an advantage perhaps in standardized final warnings, to make it clear that official action s about to be taken, but otherwise I dont think our templating policy is particularly helpful or fair to anybody, except those who like to use automated editors and not pay personal attention to what notice they are leaving. While we have the templates, I dont see why anyone  should be blamed for using them in appropriate cases  DGG (talk) 23:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well said. Besides, this is not the first weird block he makes.  Brusegadi (talk) 02:25, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Not really, different language is appropriate for different editors. If you leave a newbie a message saying "welcome to Wikipedia", it's perfectly reasonable; if you leave the same text for an obviously well-established editor, it shows that you didn't even care enough about the conversation to avoid making clearly inapplicable comments. In normal conversation, this level of obvious inattentiveness would be considered a slight and it is equally so here. Christopher Parham (talk) 02:34, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, I picked the lowest level template on the warning list to warn someone for making an insulting comment to a polite request. I'm not so familiar with everyone here to know who is and is not "obviously" established.  I saw that this editor closed a discussion, I asked him about it in a polite and respectful manner, and he responded in an incivil manner.  I practically never warn editors other than totally new editors with the anon-welcome warning template.  The funny thing is that I thought I was giving him the politest warning possible and hoped that it would have encouraged him to approach the discussion as I was, i.e. politely.  Best, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 05:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The whole "don't template an established editor" just does not fly. Maybe it's etiquette, but it's definitely not policy and it's definitely not a blockable offense. It's also not an editor's responsibility to determine whether another editor is "established" or not. Who's to say what "established" is anyway? Roguegeek (talk) 16:43, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * ironic that the same "welcome to..." words that we put on the template specifically in order to be polite most of t he time when its used are being objected to. It's just boiler plate, and if it shows up on a message to someone who does not need a warning, it can just be ignored. Perhaps all our messages need some effort at greater concision. DGG (talk) 21:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Granted, I can see how having that addition may look condescending on the surface. Saying "Welcome to Wikipedia" to someone who's been around forever could be rather hard to interpret, oddly enough. Wizardman  04:05, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * thing is, it is just

Moved unresolved discussion from archive. User:Cryptic hasn't been active for over a week now and his last edit clearly showed he recognized this discussion was taking place. If this purposeful failure of communication is continued, which is another act against the administrator conduct policy, what resolution, if any, is to be had with this issue? Roguegeek (talk) 22:08, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * In one sense, it is resolved, as he hasn't done anything bad in the interim, and I think WP:AGF also indicates that we should give individuals the benefit of the doubt regarding, for instance, vacations, illness, death in the family, you know the drill. I think it would probably be out of line to go further without having seen clear evidence that the subject has purposely avoided this discussion since then, which right now we don't have. If that party were to resume editing and still continue to ignore the discussion, however, then I think that the failure of communication could be more clearly said to be purposeful. John Carter (talk) 22:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This looks more like contempt of court. Mathsci (talk) 22:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Or he could not want to get re-involved, figuring the drama will get worse if he re-enters the debate. that's what that diff says to me.  Either way, he's got a right to not respond. Protonk (talk) 22:39, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That's not entirely accurate. I'm fairly certain there's an ArbComm case around here somewhere that states admins are expected to be accountable for their actions and willing to discuss them. I'm not much of a comm-hound, so I'm not sure which case that would have come from. - <font color="#000080">auburn <font color="#CC5500">pilot  talk  22:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. He has a special responsibility as an admin to be responsible for his actions.  But I don't think that we may interpret his refusal to comment as contempt of court, rather as a lapse in his execution of those responsibilities. Protonk (talk) 17:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not the case I was thinking of, but one of the principles of Requests for arbitration/InShaneee is "Administrators must be willing and prepared to discuss the reasons for their administrative actions in a timely manner." - <font color="#000080">auburn <font color="#CC5500">pilot  talk  23:07, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Were you thinking of this one? Requests_for_arbitration/Durova. RMHED (talk) 23:40, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I dropped some advice on his Talk page, I have no clue if he has read it. Here is what I see as the situation. It's true, you can't force someone to apologize. But when an admin makes a bad block, particularly if it involves some kind of COI (as this did, the "trolling" was a warning on Cryptic's Talk page), the community then has a very legitimate concern as to whether or not there is danger it will repeat. I've seen two examples of an admin who made a bad block due to this kind of COI, in the relatively short time I've been very active here, where the admin refused to apologize, refused to acknowledge a mistake, and both times they were de-sysopped )User:Physchim62) or resigned under a cloud (User:Tango, still not understanding why the community hadn't supported them. It is very serious. If you are a friend of User:Cryptic, be very careful about giving him the wrong kind of "support." It can be deadly. He needs, I'd say, his friends to explain this thing to him. It's a live wire, blocking with a COI, don't touch it! If someone is so motivated, they can start an RfC, as noted. AN/I isn't the place for it.
 * I personally advised Cryptic not to defend himself, but I also suggested that he answer questions. RfC/RfAr don't require his participation, but, at some point, if he can find it possible to say, "It was a mistake," and to say why it was, so that we can understand that, indeed, it won't happen again, it will, I predict, all blow over. Unless he waits too long. --Abd (talk) 23:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Section Break
Requests_for_arbitration/InShaneee says: Responsiveness

4) Administrators must be willing and prepared to discuss the reasons for their administrative actions in a timely manner.

Passed 11-0 at 18:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC) By no means has that been met here. Cryptic is either ignoring this thread or something else, but he is in material violation of ArbCom's decision. So, what now? Bstone (talk) 23:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Looking through his contributions, he has taken chunks of time off (a week or so) in the past, such as this. The fact that he chose now to take one though doesn't bode well though. Next step would be an RFC, i don't know if that would accomplish anything that this thread hasn't already. Wizardman  23:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

We cannot say that there has been a material violation, because he isn't editing at all and may not even be looking at this, plus this is not, and should not be, an RfC, beyond what is necessary to determine immediate action. Wrong place for that. If there was considered to be immediate danger of damage to the project by not revoking his adminship, there are steps that could be taken, but I haven't seen anyone allege that. He screwed up, and he's on wikibreak, which is perhaps a good idea. I don't want, and I don't think we want, his blood for his mistake, we simply want, probably before he uses his admin tools again for anything remotely controversial, for him to recognize the mistake so we can be confident he won't make it again. He should have all the time he needs to do that. Somebody wants to start an RfC, fine, but I'd suggest not closing it until (1) he comes back and (2) he's had ample opportunity to respond. There should be no rush. He's not doing any ongoing damage, and, unless he was improperly blocking right and left -- which would be an emergency -- we can and should wait. --Abd (talk) 00:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * let's recall that there is more than one bad block, there was the inappropriate use of the word "trolling" on the block log to describe the GRC one, and in addition to the blocks there's the insulting language used to GRC when he asked for userification of an article,, and the general lack of response seen on his talk page. DGG (talk) 00:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And, in addition, failure to respond in a timely manner- as ordered by ArbCom. His issues are stacking up pretty quickly. Bstone (talk) 00:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The community should desysop Cryptic immediately. It doesn't matter whether or not he's listed himself as open for recall. The community giveth, and the community taketh away. Kurt Weber ( Go Colts! ) 00:56, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Desysopping never has been, nor will it ever be, an easy thing to do. Kurt is giving his opinion, but short of Arbcomm intervention, it's a lost cause. If Cryptic is open to recall, then someone should look into his criteria. If not, we should move on. <font color="#660000">Wisdom89  ( <font color="#17001E">T |undefined /  <font color="#17001E">C ) 01:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I fail to see why the cooperation of the illegitimate Arbitrary Committee is necessary here...all power properly rests with the community and its institutions, not some board imposed by the fiat of one man who's not all that special. Kurt Weber ( Go Colts! ) 01:09, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't necessary disagree with you Kurt. However, while I am familiar with community sanctioned bans, can discussions at ANI and AN achieve consensus for desysopping? Is there precedence for it? <font color="#660000">Wisdom89  ( <font color="#17001E">T |undefined /  <font color="#17001E">C ) 01:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * First time for everything and all. Kurt Weber ( Go Colts! ) 01:21, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Snowball's chance in Hell. This is the wrong environment to make a decision like desysopping. RfC is where it would start. I wrote much more on this, but realized that I'd be doing what I often decry, distracting from the purpose of this page. So I'm putting it on Kurt's Talk page, and I'll come back and link to a diff. --Abd (talk) 01:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC) permanent link--Abd (talk) 02:06, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I see there was once a proposal for Demoting inactive admins. For what it is worth, I am not interested in revenge or anything, which is why I suggested a recall or discussion or something to see if there are other problems and to consider such actions rather than demanding anything be done and as some may recall I even defended Durova when one of her blocks were called into account.  In fact even though she is the only other admin to have ever blocked me (and I have made over 20,000 edits by now), I still include her on my list of nice wikipedians.  So, I would pefer to be forgiving and as Abraham Lincoln said, "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"  But my concern as indicated above stems from noticing Cryptic's increased frustration with the project in general and what seemed to be increased emotion based responses and in some cases actions.  Plus, whereas Durova apologized profusely when she was called into question and actively discussed with others admidst far more determined opposition to her than we are seeing here, we are not seeing such efforts at moving positively further.  I am pleased that in most of my other requests at userfication with others have been far more pleasant a la my request here and and this response.  When I ask for userfication, I do make good on my expressed interest to work on the articles when I can: see, , etc. and have even successfully improved my userfied articles so that they could be moved back into mainspace as seen at Articles for deletion/Knights Templar and popular culture (2nd nomination).  Sincerely, --<font face="Times New Roman"> Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 01:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Regarding the proposal, it might be a good idea, but I doubt the single week or so the subject has been inactive would qualify as a sufficient period of inactivity for such demotion. I'm considering writing an essay (hey, it's writing something, OK?) about possibly requiring some sort of reconfirmation vote of admins after some given multiple-year period, but I doubt that would be applicable in this situation either. But, if we should have continued total inactivity for another week or so, then there might be grounds for maybe asking ArbCom to considering desysoping the individual in question. John Carter (talk) 01:48, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * ArbComm would toss this out if there hasn't been an RfC. It is possible that this discussion is sufficient trout-slapping that the RfC isn't needed, but we won't know for sure until Cryptic shows back up, if he does, and responds, which could be days, weeks, months. Years? I wouldn't file an RfC unless he's back, could be a huge waste of time. If he comes back and apologizes, I think the community, including Le Grand Roi, will welcome him back. If he acts like nothing happened, well, depends on the attention span of the community, which is a complicated thing. The question behind the RfC: Would You Do This Again? will be legitimate even if asked a year from now. Desysopping is not punitive, or at least it shouldn't be.--Abd (talk) 02:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think all of this discussion about policy and guidelines is good, but maybe it's taking away from what I would think is a very real issue here. An Admin(!) has performed not one, but several actions that break administrator conduct policy. He has issued a couple of what seems to be unjustified blocks with no warnings or discussion and sometimes in response to just something he didn't like. He is not approachable, has a clear tendency to ignore clarifying and is more frequently responding to users uncivily. As editors, we are suppose to feel confident in our Admins. I'm not out to hang anyone, but how are we suppose to ever feel confident in this Admin with their recent history and them currently not addressing this conversation (which is further proof of ignoring issues)? Furthermore, how are we suppose to stay confident in Admins in general and the administration process when something like this is brought directly to their table and nothing is done about it? I'm all for the process, but there's something about this just seems... wrong. Roguegeek (talk) 02:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps if we open a Community Petition for Desysop it might be accepted by ArbCom? Bstone (talk) 02:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Some of you people need to get a grip
The sub-sherlock holmes guesswork combined with the outrage over his lack of answers adds up to a giant pot of "fuck all". Unless I've missed something in the thread, nobody knows where he is or why he hasn't answered or been active. Some of you need to take your heads out of your asses, wikipedia isn't real, we don't punch in, we aren't require to turn up every day. He could be hiding out or he could have just found out that he's got cancer - nobody knows. So the outrage over his lack of answers since the 28th is frankly the most retarded thing I've heard in a while. Get over yourselves and get some perspective. --Allemandtando (talk) 09:03, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If Cryptic had been doing other things on Wikipedia and not replying, it would be a different matter, and a failure to respond to good faith concerns would then be an issue. As he is not contributing at all, I suggest everyone calms down and re-raises the issue with him as and when he returns, rather than RFC or RFArb him (can they be used as verbs?) in his absence. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl  <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  10:54, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Using words like "fuck", "asses," and "retarded" does not add anything constructive or worthwhile to this discussion. Please approach discussions with maturity and respect to your fellow contributors.  --<font face="Times New Roman">Happy Independence Day!   Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 17:09, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

After stumbling into this long discussion and reading most of it I feeled compelled to point out one thing. First of all, User:Cryptic does seem to block too easily but everyone should calm down and let him respond when he returns, but he definitely should make some type of statement here. But I really question the sincerity of the user that brought this up, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles. Read this quote that he said said in this discussion:


 * Honestly, with regards to warnings for comments like that would you suggest I do? Is it appropriate to give some kind of warning and if so what? Yes, I have been here for a while, but there is a good deal I haven't worked on or really think I know a lot about. Warnings are one area that I haven't really worked on; plus, I did not check his contrib history to see how long he's been around. So, I know for the future, what would be the way to go when someone calls you a "spoiled child"? Thanks. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 03:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC) (emphasis added)

This is completely ridiculous, his excuse for adding that astonishingly inappropriate warning template was that he "did not check his contrib history to see how long he's been around"? He's an ADMIN, Le Grand knew he was an admin. I'm sorry but this statement was so ridiculous I had to point it out. Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles acts too nice (is that a personal attack too?), and statements like this really make me question his sincerity, and while I am totally against the block I can't help but be sympathetic to Cryptic. LonelyMarble (talk) 16:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Blocking without warning and for such a non-legitimate reason is ridiculous and needs to be addressed. Admins are not somehow immune to or above being warned for making personal attacks or for being incivil.  And in any event more people should be nice.  Questioning people's sincereity and politness may not be a personal attack, but it certainly is or comes close to assuming bad faith.  --<font face="Times New Roman">Happy Independence Day!   Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 17:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that the block was unjustified and should be addressed. I just found your excuse for adding that template a little insincere but that is just my opinion or interpretation. I was just pointing out both sides to the issue, adding the template and blocking you were both mistakes, the blocking is obviously the more egregious one. LonelyMarble (talk) 17:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I was being sincere. --<font face="Times New Roman">Happy Independence Day!   Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 17:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If we all agree (which we should be able to) that templating a regular one single time is not a blockable offence in itself, can we please drop the issue of Le Grand Roi's intention behind the warning. It was ill considered and he knew what he was doing (sorry Le Grand Roi, you're waaaay to intelligent and you've been around way to long to plead ignorance on this one) but the bottom line is that the offence wasn't blockable yet the issuing editor was blocked. Discussing the circumstances under which Le Grand Roi made his decision to issue the warning is utterly distracting to the matter at hand. Le Grand Roi: drop your ingorance plea. Whatever the end result of this whole sitution may be, you will not be sanctioned for placing that warning on Cryptic's page nor will your reason to do so affect the outcome of all this. Just leave it be, its a non-issue. SWik78 (talk • contribs) 18:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

How to respond to Template:Di-replaceable fair use disputed
This may not be the best place to post this but it is an issue related to how administrators make use of their deletion powers with respect to a user posting Template:Di-replaceable fair use disputed It is my belief that if a user posts Template:Di-replaceable fair use disputed he should receive some sort of reply prior to the image being deleted. Some administrators disagree with this POV. What is the administrative policy regarding this? Specific example Image:Datpol.jpg where I posted the dispute tag and the only response was the following deletion log notice: 00:24, July 2, 2008 Melesse (Talk | contribs) deleted "Image:Datpol.jpg" ‎ (Speedy deleted per (CSD I7), was an image with an invalid fair use rationale and the uploader was notified more than 48 hours ago. using TW) (Please note, I was not the uploader of the file.) This fails to acknowledge the disputed tag in any way. It should be noted that the administrator did respond to questions posted on her user page following the deletion of the image The key reason for posting here is the following response: ''I did not ignore the posted tag. I read it, decided your rationale was not valid .... and deleted it. I don't know what more you want. If it so pleases you, go ahead and complain about me at the AN and see if anyone agrees with you. Melesse (talk) 00:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)'' I believe users should receive some sort of reply to the dispute tag that goes beyond what was posted in the deletion log which did not in any way acknowledge that anyone had disputed the deletion tag leading one to believe that the dispute tag is simply being ignored. A second example is Image:Kara_Scott_publicity_photo.jpg Finally I believe that the following replies are not appropriate answers as the reference page itself is labeled as "This Wikipedia page is currently inactive and is retained as a historical archive. Either the page is no longer relevant or consensus has become unclear." The quote is as follows:
 * Nope. Fair use images of living people are only allowed under very very special circumstances. See this page. Seeing as Kara Scott is alive and seems to be in the public eye a fair amount, it is reasonable for someone to take their own photo of her and release it under a free license. Melesse (talk) 03:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The entire issue of "Fair use images of living people" needs to be better referenced in the policy. There are far too many discussions that go no where and fail to link back to current policy, if it even exists. But in any case Administrators should not be referencing pages labeled as "no longer relevant or consensus has become unclear" to support their POV. Dbiel (Talk) 01:42, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think deletion review would be the appropriate forum to address concerns like that. Kelly  hi! 01:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I also want to point out that a dispute tag, such as hangon, etc. gives the disputer no guarantee that the image/page won't be deleted. If an administrator feels that the image/page violates policy, then there is no reason for said admin to not delete it, as it is their "job."  I also want to point out that if someone is alive, and they don't live in a secret cave, that more than likely someone can get a free image of said person.  A lot of people take this for granted, but we need to remember that this is a free encyclopedia, so non-free content should only be added when there is no other reasonable options.  I agree with Kelly, WP:DRV would be the best place to go. <font face="Harlow Solid Italic"><font size="2px" color="teal"> « Gonzo fan2007  (talk ♦ contribs) @  '' 01:49, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Is that not the place to question a specific deletion? That is not the purpose of this posting. Based on a posting by Jimbo Wales himself, it appears clear that these type of images are not welcome in Wikipedia. But unfortunately his posting is not on a policy page but simply on his user page. The specific question being posted here is simply how should an administrator respond to the dispute tag? It does not relate to the deletion of the image, simply to the procedure used to delete it and the failure to acknowedge the dispute tag. Dbiel (Talk) 01:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC) - posted after edit conflict
 * Based on the previous replies it would appear that if an administrator disagrees with the challenge or POV presented in the dispute tag that they have no responsibility to respond to it in any way, basicly from the user's point of view, simply ignoring it and deleting the image without any comment as to the dispute. Seems like a poor policy to me! Dbiel (Talk) 02:03, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Pictures of living people were addressed specifically by the Wikimedia Foundation here - this resolution is linked from WP:NFCC. Kelly  hi! 02:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the links, but you are missing the point. This does not relate to the deletion of the images. It relates to the handling of the dispute tag which itself states the following:
 * "Closing administrator: if the decision is to Keep the image please put Rk on the image page. If the decision is to Delete please archive the discussion on the talk page between Rtd and Rb and delete the image page."
 * This is not being done. Basicly the dispute tag is simply being ignored, and that is the purpose of this topic. This topic does NOT deal with the deletion of images. It deals with how the dispute tag is being handled by administrators. Dbiel (Talk) 02:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry - could you provide a link to the policy you are quoting? Kelly  hi! 02:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not sure where to find it in policy. it is quoted from the dispute tag itself Template:Di-replaceable fair use disputed If that is not policy, then the template needs to be edited. Dbiel (Talk) 02:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the template should be fixed. Thousands of bad fair use images are speedily deleted every month, and I personally don't really see any need to keep around the image talk pages for them. Kelly  hi! 02:42, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * To be sure I understand what you are saying, I will restate it in my words. If an administrator comes across an image with the following tag Template:Di-replaceable fair use disputed and he disagrees with the reason stated, there is no need to respond to the disputed tag, it can simply be ignored and the image deleted without any reference to the dispute tag, it can be handled as if the disputed tag had never been posted. Dbiel (Talk) 02:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No, of course the deleting admin should consider the rationale, just as they would consider the argument in a hangon. But if they decide against it, there's not need to keep the argument around on an orphaned talk page. If the admin was wrong on deletion policy for a particular image, it can be brought up at deletion review. Kelly  hi! 03:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess I am just not making myself clear enough. It is being assumed that the deleting admin has considered the rationale and made the decision that the rational is not strong enought to stop the deletion. The admin should somehow acknowledge the fact that they have considered the rationale, either on the talk page per the template which you disagree with, or in the deletion log or on the users talk page who posted the dispute tag. The deletion log might be the best place to do it, but that is not being done at this time unless you can tell me how the following tells me that the admin even bothered to read the dispute reason:
 * deletion log notice: 00:24, July 2, 2008 Melesse (Talk | contribs) deleted "Image:Datpol.jpg" ‎ (Speedy deleted per (CSD I7), was an image with an invalid fair use rationale and the uploader was notified more than 48 hours ago. using TW)''
 * Especially since the fair use rational was valid. And the reason given for deletion is invalid CSD Where does this state anything about images of living people which was the real reason the image was deleted. Thank you for your replies so far. Dbiel (Talk) 03:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I would say it can safely be assumed that the administrator considered all arguments present on the page unless there is evidence to the contrary (i.e. bot deletions or something like that). CSD I7 is the overarching policy for deletion of images with bad fair use claims, which includes replaceable fair use images. Kelly  hi! 04:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * So to repeat again, you are saying that if the administrator has considered all arguments and feels that they are not enought to change their POV regarding deleting the image, then there is absolutely no need to respond to the dispute tag in any form or fashion including use of the deletion log summary, it can be totally ignored (as long as the reasons have been considered) and there is no need to notifiy the user who posted the dispute tag of the decision, thereby forcing that user to ask the question on the admins talk page just to find out if they actually did consider the dispute tag or simply ignored it. Dbiel (Talk) 04:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

← Simply, put: yes. The admin can delete the image (or article, as the case may be) without responding to the "hangon" message. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 12:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the reply, it is the first one to actually answer the question. It is just a very disappointing answer. The typical user would expect to get a reply to a "hangon" message. But if your answer is reflective of administrative policy (and it is reflective of how some (maybe most?) admins are currently handling hangon messages), they should not expect to receive any reply unless the admin actually agrees with the reason given. This seems like a very poor way to treat the humble user who is still trying to learn the ins and outs of Wikipedia. Dbiel (Talk) 15:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikkid
has been pushing an edit war spread over several articles, including petroleum, diamondoid, and White Tiger oil field with several users. He is pushing a wp:fringe hypothesis about the origin of oil, one which has been hashed out as such many times at many different articles, and this has been pointed out to him at the Talk:Petroleum page, but he keeps repeating himself no matter what replies he receives. A report was created at the FTN board, but his editing has gotten more and more tendentious  and he is now even changing his initial comments on talk pages  and creating strange ultra-synthesized versions of his POV. Please somebody have a word with him as this is getting out of hand. NJGW (talk) 03:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * He also made a frivolous AIV report against one of his antagonists (that, fortunately, was quickly idenitified as such). From his talk page he does not seem to be willing to compromise in the slightest. If this continues, I think a block for tendentious editing is in order. Will warn him appropriately. Daniel Case (talk) 03:38, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you suggesting that until now he hasn't been warned appropriately? I don't see any evidence of that on his talk page. I don't think it's fair to imply that the user hasn't been given the appropriate level of warnings up to his fifth "final warning." I think another "final warning" template, the sixth in four days, would be inappropriate, as a matter of fact. Aunt Entropy (talk) 04:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It was late and the original post here asked that he be talked to, basically by someone outside the loop. I have no problem with how things have been handled since I went to bed last night. Daniel Case (talk) 16:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * His response: editors opposing him are tendentious, he's just trying to balance... And he just reverted JoshuaZ on diamondoid - seems to be in vio of 3rr as well. But, I'm rather involved :-) Vsmith (talk) 04:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You hush, you vandal. :) See? His oppression just proves what lengths your liberal planet-hugging atheist evolutionist Prius-driving Richard Dawkins fanboy cabal will go to keep Wikipedia in your iron grip!!¡!Aunt Entropy (talk)!`¡!!one -- Aunt Entropy (talk) 04:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit conflict: Just based on the edits at Diamondoid and Petroleum, I am blocking for 31 hours for edit warring and/or tendentious editing.
 * 10:56, 3 July 2008
 * 12:40, 3 July 2008
 * 21:08, 3 July 2008
 * 23:46, 3 July 2008
 * 01:06, 4 July 2008
 * 18:50, 3 July 2008, which includes this. <font color="#CC0000">seicer &#x007C; <font color="#669900">talk  &#x007C; <font color="#669900">contribs  04:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Note that Daniel Case gave notice at 00:44, 4 July 2008, which was replied at 00:59, 4 July 2008 (and amended as the later timestamp shows). This was followed up with a revert only minutes later. <font color="#CC0000">seicer &#x007C; <font color="#669900">talk  &#x007C; <font color="#669900">contribs  04:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * (Not that it changes the picture.) — Athaenara  ✉  05:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * (Not that it changes the picture.) — Athaenara  ✉  05:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

IP is currently vandalizing articles
About a half dozen instances of vandalism from this IP this morning. TimidGuy (talk) 14:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This could be three different editors, but the last one hasn't edited after a final warning. Contribs are watchlisted. -- Rodhull andemu  15:03, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * AIV is this way ---> Tiptoety  talk 15:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Please tell Jossi to not deal with me
Hi, User:Jossi blocked me last for dealing with sockpuppetry. Since we have had run-ins in the past, I'm asking the community of administrators to request that he not use his administrator functions against me. This is especially true because he is a practitioner of a religion that has been subject to skeptical inquiry (one of my areas of editorial focus) and I feel that this compromises his ability to be objective and evenhanded in his treatment of me. I am particularly upset by his most recent block of me.

Query: He and I have interacted extensively both in talkspace and in mainspace. Do you think it is reasonable to ask that he get uninvolved administrators to take action against me if he thinks I deserve it, instead of doing so himself?

ScienceApologist (talk) 22:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Here is some reading material: WP:FRINGE. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

This is Jossi's rationale. Note that despite our long history of being opposed to each other, Jossi sees no problem trying to teach me to not be police, judge, and executioner, but to me it appears that he has not heeded his own advice. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the further apart these two are kept, the better. I thoroughly support Jossi ALWAYS seeking out another admin, preferably through AN or AN/I, to handle any and all problems with SA from now on. I'm tired of seeing these two go in circles, and think that a guaranteed third opinion before blocks would alleviate a lot of the hassles. ThuranX (talk) 22:33, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * That would make me feel much better. Thank you. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I also note that declaring your vendetta "I'm going to put you on trial" is stupid. You need to refactor those comments as well. Jossi's easily provoked, so don't feed the troll. ThuranX (talk) 22:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If this isn't putting someone on trial in the Wikipedia sense, I don't know what is. I'm simply trying to be honest. I'm pissed off at Jossi, I think he shouldn't be an administrator. I'm not going to hide that this is my point-of-view. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Whether Jossi's easily provoked or not, SA saying (see Jossi's talk page) "wikipedia crimes" and "I'm going to put you on trial" is over the top and should indeed be refactored. I also agree this two should separate, wiki is a big place, there's plenty of room. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 22:45, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I give you permission to refactor that comment, Rlevse. I was trying to be honest. I'm really mad at Jossi and think he should be subject to punitive measures. That's just how I feel right now. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:36, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * That's not going to happen. SA's primary goal on WP is to get a clear rational scientific view into any article in which it belongs, while Jossi's got a religious group whose articles and ethoses (ethoi?) he strongly watches over. These overlap, and neither will let go short of a community ban. Jossi's got a lot of admins who will circle the wagons at that, and SA has a lot of general community support preventing him from being tossed, so there has to be a careful set of rules for them both to edit. SA needs to learn to avoid provoking Jossi, and Jossi needs to learn that one, SA's often right about factual information, and two, his admin badge isn't a 'do what I want' ticket. ThuranX (talk) 22:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) I'm proposing to put you on trial for the Wikipedia crimes you perpetrated against me.. Science Apologist needs to take a deep breath, or a wikibreak, or both.
 * 2) @ThuranX: I am not a troll, and I do not need not to be fed, FYI.
 * 3) @ Other admins: Science Apologist needs to be told not to behave like a vigilante: there is enough strength in the community to deal with fringe POV pushers, and not all editors that disagree with him are fringe POV pushers. Science Apologist needs also to learn to utilize the admin boards when needed, and be patient that his reports will be taken seriously,  rather than make reports and while reports are still open, refactor comments in talk page discussions as he did in this last incident. I warned him three times, and he persisted, and earned himself a 24 hrs block, which is not by any stretch of the imagination a "crime" about which I need to be put on "trial". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:01, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Jossi, you're behaving like a vigilante when you block me after being so incredibly involved with me over the years. Your "warnings" were met with explanations for why they made no sense. I think you behaved very badly and are basically a hypocrite. I don't know why you always feel it necessary to shill for Fringe POV-pushers, but your massive history in regards to this seem to me to indicate that you are not someone who should have ever been given the administrator tools. You abused your mop-and-bucket when you blocked me without getting anyone else to review the situation. In short, I don't want to see you doing anything administrative toward me ever again. I'm sick and tired of your excuses. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * By now, SA, almost every active administrator has been "involved with you", so pleas, spare me the hyperbole and the badmouthing. If you are tired of my "excuses", imagine how tired the community should be of your behavior. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:40, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Now that is hyperbole. There are 1800 administrators. I can name maybe a dozen who have been involved with me. Stop invoking the "community" as if you are some sort of spokesperson. Where do you get off being so rudely supercilious? ScienceApologist (talk) 23:45, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And you call this an "explanation"? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:43, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There are plenty of other diffs I could also point to. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:45, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * SA's hyperbole is unhelpful. However Jossi is no longer an uninvolved admin regarding SA. In the most recent block, Jossi and SA were reverting each other. It's not right for an admin to engage in an edit war and then block the other party.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 23:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hyperbole? Have you ever been blocked by someone who has been in a long-running dispute with you across multiple article spaces, Will? I took a weeklong break. I'm still fuming. I need to have out with it and I'm venting. I'm going to do it on Wiki too. I think Jossi is one of the worst administrators we've got here. Just get him away from me. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:33, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If so, then yes, Jossi should walk away and leave blocking to others. ++Lar: t/c 23:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Will.  Enigma  message 23:31, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I was not "edit warring", Will. And I don't think Will needs to get involved in this discussion, given our recent disputes. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:36, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Really, Jossi? WP:EDIT WAR seems to say differently especially with regards to the fact that you were continually reverting my removals of a Davkal sock. I don't know what your definition is, though. Maybe no one was edit warring. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:41, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

First, let me echo the sentiment that some of ScienceApologist's statements to and about Jossi need to be refactored. Second, in the last few days I asked Jossi to get outside admin help in the future if he thinks he needs to block SA. I explained my rationale at that time: namely, (1) If Jossi is right about the need to block, other admins will agree and can do this for him; and (2) SA responds better to other admins than he does to Jossi, which may obviate the need to block. I stand by these rationales. I would add that Jossi and SA have previously been engaged in editing the same contentious articles, though in a very limited way I stand corrected. Antelan <sup style="color:#b00000;">talk 23:36, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I also give you permission to refactor the statements, Antelan. I'm just being honest with my feelings. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:38, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * By the way, Jossi's history with me goes way back to the plasma cosmology wars where he reverted to a "preferred version" and then protected an article to appease certain POV-pushers who will not be named. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:39, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That was back in .... 2005? Please... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:45, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As I said, LONGRUNNING dispute. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:49, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * :: Jossi is clearly involved and should always get another admin with deal with this user in terms of "use of buttons". Oh and SA, you now have the communities attention on this matter, so I suggest you shut up, sit back and let us discuss it. --Allemandtando (talk) 23:42, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright. I'll shut up. Thanks for being civil and all. I'll remember to use that one later. I'm out of here. Sorry that you had to see me so mad. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Here is the sequence of edits. SA apparently believed he was deleting the remarks of a banned user.
 * SA: 00:45, June 23, 2008 Undid revision 221091176 by Ludwigs2 (talk) sorry: BANNED users don't get to post.
 * Jossi: 00:47, June 23, 2008  [no edit summary]
 * SA: 00:49, June 23, 2008 Reverted good faith edits by Jossi; Jossi, we're trying to clear the air about WP:SOCKs of User:Davkal.. 
 * Jossi: 00:54, June 23, 2008 Second warning: Please do not refactor talk page
 * SA: 00:57, June 23, 2008 Undid revision 221093093 by Jossi (talk) see WP:3RR#Other exceptions. This is a User:Davkal sock.
 * Jossi: 01:03, June 23, 2008 last warning
 * SA: 01:11, June 23, 2008 Undid revision 221094604 by Jossi (talk) WP:3RR#Other exceptions. Also, you removed my post.
 * It appears that Jossi reverted SA three times, then blocked him for violating 3RR. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 23:50, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I appears that (again) you miss the context. SA filled an SPS report, and while the report was still opened, he decided that it was a SP and refactored the comments. This despite the fact that there is no policy that calls for refactoring talk page comments for such SPs. I warned him not to refactor talk pages, on that basis. But he "knew" better. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:54, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Banned users may not edit any part of Wikipedia, and their contributions may be removed. See WP:BAN. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 00:02, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Note that the SPS report came back positive, so SA was correct in regarding the IP as a sock of a banned user. Suspected sock puppets/210.194.40.149. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 00:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * And if you have cared to do some due diligence before these accusations, Will, you should have noted that the block was not for 3RR. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:57, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * What policy did SA violate that justified a block, if not 3RR? ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 00:02, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Now, if you don't mind, Will, let other admins comment. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:59, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Once my questions are answered I'll be done. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 00:02, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * "Your questions"? or your questioning of me? I do not see it appropriate that you get to try to impeach my character here, given the massive content disputes you and I are engaged in. Leave it to others, Will. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:07, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

SA's unimpressive conduct of labeling an editor as a sockpuppet to amp up an edit war aside, Jossi's choice to edit war with somebody he'd blocked shortly before is frankly disappointing. Was there any reason he simply didn't seek the assistance of uninvolved administrators at WP:AN3 or WP:AE and avoided this perception of impropriety? Jossi, I'm hoping that you see the sense in my concerns and pledge to avoid sanctioning SA in the future if you continue to edit against him, opting instead to make a case to a neutral body of administrators rather than engaging in such behavior. Anyway, this specific block is in the past, and I will reserve opinion on a pattern of mutual combativeness for now. <small style="background:#fff;border:#090 1px solid;color:#000;padding:0px 3px 1px 4px;white-space:nowrap">east<big style="color:#090">. 718 at 00:03, July 2, 2008
 * It was a sockpuppet Suspected sock puppets/210.194.40.149. Hal peridol (talk) 16:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Statement
Clearly SA is pissed off, and a week-long break did not helped him. So, sure, I will not block him in the future directly, but if I come across any disruption by him, I will dully report it at WP:AN/I. IMO, it is about time that someone stands up for the community and does the right thing regardless of who the user doing the disruption. So, SA: I am not going away, I am here and will be here for as long as I find this project worth of my time. And if I see disruption, I will report it. OK? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:53, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This is exactly what you are supposed to do, if you want. Be careful, though.--Abd (talk) 06:09, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * User:Davkal was banned for disruption. How does re-instating comments from a banned user count as standing up for the community? ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 00:02, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * When the refactor happened, the SSP report that SA filed was not closed. SA could have simply waited, but he did not. And even if the SP was of a banned user, there is no policy that calls for refactoring of talk page comments, which is done only in extreme circumstances. Learn the policy pages, Will. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:09, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I am familair with the policy. It says: Anyone is free to revert any edits made in defiance of a ban. That is what SA was doing. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 00:12, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Tell me how this comment is so disruptive as to warrant removal? It does not. See also BAN which basically speaks of edits to articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:14, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * So you edit-warred and then blocked a user who you have a known history with because he was removing the comments of a banned user? and you didn't think that someone uninvolved should have taken that action? --Allemandtando (talk) 00:18, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have not met you before, so I am not sure you are aware of this incident. You may want to read User_talk:ScienceApologist including the comment of the admin that reviewed the block. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * WP:BAN does not require that the edits be disruptive. It says "any edits". I also see what it says about those who reinstate edits by banned users:
 * Users may reinstate edits that were reverted due to being made in defiance of a ban, if they sincerely believe the edits are beneficial to the encyclopedia and compliant with policy. Users who reinstate such edits take complete personal responsibility for the content by so doing. Note that editing on behalf of a banned user is strongly discouraged, and may in some cases be viewed as meatpuppetry, especially if the edits in question are similar to those that led to the ban in the first place. If in doubt, think twice and consult others more familiar with the situation first.
 * Why was Jossi so confident that the IP was not a banned user that he blocked another user who'd already made a case? Jossi has said he didn't block SA for 3RR. What policy did SA violate to justify the block?  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 00:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * All that SA had to do was to be patient. And your insistence, Will, it is most unwelcome. Should I make a case for retaliation from you? Leave it to others, please. The admin that reviewed the block could have unblock him, but he did not. Stay out of this. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Sure, an active admin can (will?) have its lapses of judgment, and with hindsight, I should have let it be and not block SA for that behavior. At the time, I saw it to be necessary, but I may have been wrong although the admin that reviewed the block did not see it that way. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:04, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You still haven't said why you blocked the user. You did say it wasn't for 3RR. Is it too much to ask why you felt it was necessary for you to block the user, despite having edit-warred with him? The two admins who approved the block appear to have (incorrectly?) assumed that SA was blocked for 3RR, and two others who reviewed the block said that it was inappropriate. As for pursuing this matter, you posted a statement above basically saying that you are acting on behalf of the community by standing up to disruption. That's a big claim, especially when you're restoring postings by a banned user. If you aren't following the blocking or banning policies then that's a legitimate cause for concern. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 01:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have asked you twice to stay out of this, clearly you are attempting retaliation for our current disputes between you and I. I have already made a statement that I will post an AN/I any behavior I see as disruptive rather that action it myself. I have already admitted that I may have been mistaken, so what is your intention with these comments, Will? Do you want three nails and a cross? Please stay out of this, it is most unbecoming of you to keep pressing these points after what I have said. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:40, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Also note, FYI that SA was already in breach of 3RR in WP:FRINGE: before the incident with the page refactoring. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:45, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * May have been mistaken? You're not sure? You're apparently not even sure why you blocked the user. SA has questioned your judgment as an admin. So far you haven't given shown that you correctly understand two core key policies, WP:BAN and WP:BLOCK. Do you now understand that it is correct to remove postings from banned users, that admins may not block users with whom they're involved, and that they need to be able to justify their blocks? I won't ask again, but this is a very poor example of admin responsibility, in my opinion.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 01:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You keep pressing the point, but you do not see your own fallacies, Will. The user was blocked for what I assessed at the time to be disruptive behavior. The user comments that SA refactored where not assessed to be of a banned user at the time. SA was also edit warring in the policy page itself. So, yes, I admit may have made a mistake at the time. What else do you want, Will? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm, and also it appears that Davkal has himself a third enabler, and an admin to boot. Shot info (talk) 01:58, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not an "enabler" of anyone. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

AN/I reports have a nasty habit of getting derailed. User:ScienceApologist came here with a totally reasonable request, one so reasonable that the community should have immediately said, "Of course. User:Jossi shouldn't be dealing with you using admin tools, because of the history, and if he does, he could be sanctioned." And Jossi should have responded as well, "Of course." But we end up discussing everything and the kitchen sink, and the plumber who installed the kitchen sink, and whose fault it was that it overflowed. If the original block was right or wrong, that doesn't matter, there is process for dealing with that, and AN/I is not that process. We don't have to decide who was right, SA or Jossi. Administrators are not judges, they are police, and their job is to keep order. Want judges? Ask the community with an RfC, or go to mediation or ArbComm. We definitely need to start restricting AN/I to its proper function: dealing with situations which need immediate administrative assistance. SA came here for that, and he should have been given the assurances he sought, and this report promptly closed. Period. Because we don't have the discipline to do that, and to enforce that, AN/I has become seriously dysfunctional. --Abd (talk) 02:56, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I feel I need to add a comment here. shortly before ScienceApologist was blocked, he was edit warring on my talk page with a user whom he suspected to be a sockpuppet (and as of now is still only suspected, though the user page has an uncontested indef block).  near the end of that nonsense he began accusing me of being a sockpuppet of Davkal as well (see this diff, which covers 6 reversions and the sockpuppetry accusation), and if he had not been blocked at just about that moment I feel confident that he would have begun tearing through all of my edits without any regard for the truth of the matter.  he was out of control, and needed a time out, and I for one am glad that jossi was paying attention.


 * I will agree with Abd, above, to the extent that AN/I needs a refocus - even as a novice, I can see that way too much space here is devoted to spitting at each other over long-term beefs. I will disagree with his comment about the reasonableness of SA's request.  allowing users to ask for exemptions from administrators they think might be tough on them can only lead to users who have carte-blanche to act as unpleasantly as they like - all they need to do is find one admin who puts up with them, and then actively alienate other admins who work on their topics to exclude them, and there will no longer be any consequences for bad behavior.


 * honestly, every wikipedian ought to act as though he has to live up to the expectations of his worst opponent; that's really the only way to guarantee civil interaction in a place like this. if that makes it hard on ScienceApologist (or anyone else) because he suddenly has to be careful not to tick off someone who doesn't like him, well...  that's sad, but it can only result in a more polite and civil wikipedia.  frankly, I already think that Wikipedia is far too lenient on hissy fits; I can't tell you how many times I have seen wp:civility used to bash someone else over the head in a fit of temper.  let's not encourage them more by rewarding them.  -- Ludwigs 2  04:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * In a word: Bullshit. That sort of 'worst enemy's standard' is the crux of the Civil POV Push. If that sort of pollyanna mindset were made the core value of civility, no one would accomplish anything, WP:BOLD would be in ruin, and we'd have two million articles full of bullshit. ScienceApologist and Jossi have a problem with each other that is well known to experienced editors and admins. They should NOT be in the same room with each other. Think Golda Meir and Eva Braun, or a drunk Ted Kennedy and a handcuffed Sirhan Sirhan. the results are always bad. BAD. all caps, no exaggeration. The community clearly supports them being kept apart. Adults who cannot be around each other, in the real world, avoid each other. On Wikipedia, some like to stir drama, and don't do their half of staying apart, though they should. We, the community, have to be parents. That you can't see this, and make provocative (at best) and inciting (at worst) comments as an involved person shows that you're not as novice as you think, or at least not as mature as you want us to see.
 * As for the main issue, I think the consensus is there. Jossi needs to get an uninvolved admin for his problems with SA. My only other concern in this thread is Jossi's continuous 'go away i don't like you and don't have to answer' attitude towards Will. Should Jossi also get a 'get an admin' tag for dealing with Will? When an admin can't clearly and concisely explain their actions in a few AN/I lines, it says to me that they can't explain it ata ll ,and made a bad call. ThuranX (talk) 04:44, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll echo ThuranX's comment, but without the bovine fecal part. SA, having been blocked by Jossi, possibly improperly, asked for assurances that it wouldn't happen again, and since what he is asking for is under the circumstances something he should not even have to ask for, it is policy, the answer should have been very, very simple, and SA's alleged incivility is irrelevant. SA isn't asking for special exemption, he is asking for policy to be enforced, and, specifically, for assurance that it will be enforced. So, putting my time where my mouth is, if *Jossi* blocks SA, for anything, aside from a true emergency, where WP:IAR would apply and can be shown, I would support sanctions against Jossi. But he's not going to do that, and by not doing that, he is not going to cause us to become distracted from the underlying issue, which is alleged incivility or edit warring by SA. This AN/I report is not about that underlying issue, and so attempting to address it here, alleging it, and all that, is utterly improper, and I'm saying that this impropriety, the distraction of AN/I reports from their purpose, is seriously damaging Wikipedia, and we will need to address that. It's not personal, it is not about SA and Jossi, it is about us, and our lack of discipline here, i.e., focus. We need better process, badly. --Abd (talk) 06:07, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Abd - you're right. I'm pissed off already this evening by other WP:S%#T, and I should have known better than to open my mouth tonight.  my apologies, and I'll bow out now.  -- Ludwigs 2  06:18, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I hear you, and thank you for the feedback. As I said before, with hindsight I should have avoided intervening in that incident. I will leave it to others to address any other such incidents in the future with the hope they act upon them if necessary. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

It did not take long, did it? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * And I note that after a month off from that page, you sure enjoyed jumping in, didn't you? Can't you read? ThuranX (talk) 02:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Jossi, if you've answered the question above for why you blocked SA (if not for 3RR), I can't seem to find it. You and I have no history that I'm aware of, so I hope that you'll be able to fulfill this request.  Thanks! - C HAIRBOY  (☎) 05:30, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This is the first time I've ever looked at ScienceApologist's editing, I think. I can't speak for Jossi, but I would have blocked ScienceApologist for edits such as these:
 * - uses Twinkle to revert a fairly innocuous and referenced statement that Atropa Belladonna (Deadly Nightshade) is used in homeopathy (true), labelling it as "Most disruptive editing".
 * Edit-warring, again with Twinkle, on Quackwatch   , chiefly to remove criticism of Quackwatch (and then accuses others of POV-pushing: (, and is rude )
 * User:QuackGuru, User:Shot info , User:Levine2112  , User:ImperfectlyInformed  , User:Itsmejudith  , and User:Jossi  were all guilty of edit warring on the article to some extent, also, but not to the extent of SA.
 * "Remove lie" - no, if an article is tagged for a balance concern, discuss it on the talk page.
 * Based on all that, a block was probably appropriate. Based on ScienceApologist's prior history of edit warring blocks, a week was also probably appropriate.  It really, really, should not have been Jossi making the block, though. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl  <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  09:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Since you don't seem to know the history, the belladonna edit is very typical of the homeopathy dispute. The logic is that mentioning quack uses of plants in every plant article creates an undue impression of legitimacy for the quackery. SA is quite right and justified in removing all such references, even if his edit summary is a bit hyperbolic. I also find your logic that one editor struggling against a gang is a worse edit warrior that the gang itself a bit strange ... block SA, then then block Itsmejudith, Levine2112, ImperfectlyInformed, and Jossi as well. I don't much like either version of the article ... SA's is sanitized, but the other one tries to present criticisms of prose style as if they cast doubt upon the legitimacy of the information presented. Kww (talk) 12:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Kww, it was three editors (SA, Shot info, and QuackGuru), not one editor. You seemed to have missed that. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl  <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  15:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree with Kww. The homeopathy thing's been round and round and round. SA opposes the inclusion of homeo-cruftish additions, like 'some homeopaths use this plant for homeopathy' as if that makes it legit. I've also seen SA agree to the inclusion of such material where it's fully supported and relevant. The problem there is well discussed in other areas; I'm sure SA can point you to the important discussions. The upshot of it all was that homeopathy ought only be included where it really is relevant, not just the 'is used in' crap that advocates try to get onto about every single plant article on WP. Further, while I'm not as sure as Kww about the line-up on each side, I did already note that Jossi ran to get involved in a dispute with SA after being told in this thread to get out of each other's hair. Jossi, by that action alone, looks to be acting in bad faith where SA is concerned. ThuranX (talk) 15:23, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, let's ignore that one edit on the plant article, then (I do not know the background, you're right, even though it seems reasonable to me to add anything citable given how sparse the article is at present). Irrespective, the edit warring alone would be good for a 24 hour block, and coupled with the previous history, 48 hours is not particularly harsh. I have the distinct impression ScienceApologist is still around because a lot of people tacitly agree with many of his intentions - I'm pretty sure I, like most, want our science articles to be accurate and not mixed up with fringe mumbo jumbo - but his methods are not right. Don't make excuses for him - ScienceApologist is no martyr, he's an edit warrior, and he needs to change his ways, grit his teeth, and make an effort work constructively with others (yes, even those he considers to be POV-pushers). <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl  <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  15:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And Jossi isn't much the same? I'm no big fan of SA myself (his "help" on What the Bleep Do We Know frequently backfired into making the article worse than it was before he edited it), but it does always surprise me that he gets blocked so often and the people that work against him do not. Kww (talk) 16:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yet again, Kww and I continue to ask: What about Jossi's actions? ThuranX (talk) 06:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * What about them? What would you like to happen? I could urge Jossi to stay away from ScienceApologist, but there's no guarantee he would listen. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl  <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  08:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have already made a about this. I will stay away and let other deal with it. Anything else? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I, for one, would like to see Jossi blocked. Immediately after his grand statement, he ran off to another article to deliberately conflict with SA. This shows that his word cannot be trusted, and that he needs to be blocked to prevent further disruption. ThuranX (talk) 20:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Possible copyvio on Main Page?
Image:Ingrid-Betancourt cropped.jpg, currently on the Main Page, is possibly unfree. Although Agencia Brasil photos are indeed CC-licensed, the image source credits the Columbian Colombian Thanks, Neil! government, which I don't believe releases its work into the public domain. Kelly hi! 15:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Everything I've found indicates that the Colombian (not Columbian!!) government copyrights everything. Um, this may be a copyvio. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  15:54, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I've taken it of the main page for now. I think it's a copyvio, too, and have tagged it as such, but no doubt someone more expert will come along and let us know. Good catch, I think ... <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl  <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  16:00, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's copyright is an issue (On the bottom this is what it translates to The content of this site is published under a Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 License. Brasil.). Agencia Brasil is a Brasil Government site but maybe best to contact them. Bidgee (talk) 16:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Agencia Brasil works are CC-licensed, the problem was that this was not AB's work, they were just hosting a copy of it. Kelly  hi! 16:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Take this random article for example - . The BBC may have published the article, but the image is still owned by AP (the Associated Press). <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl  <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  17:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I see! Thank you for informing me! I'll note that incase I see of any other articles with the same sort of issue and take extra care if I find an image which is CC-licensed. :) Bidgee (talk) 17:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If any Commons admin is reading this, the copyvio image is still on Commons . <u style="text-decoration:none;font:100% cursive;color:#600">Neıl <u style="text-decoration:none;color:#226"><B>龱</B>  08:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Commons who? I'm the law!  Congratulations Neil! Leandromartinez (talk) 20:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

WorkerBee74 on Obama page, yet again
, a disruptive WP:SPA and likely WP:SOCK editor, has returned from a 3-day block for edit-warring on a Barack Obama-related article, to provoke editors on the Barack Obama talk page. In the first five edits since the block expired the user taunts, accuses other editors of bad faith, invokes support of banned and blocked editors, etc. The page, after a month of contention had been edging close to consensus. If this disruption is allowed to continue I suspect efforts will fall apart. We need help here. Thanks, Wikidemo (talk) 07:09, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm new to the a.n./i. stuff but would like to ask, before the bee would be shooed away, that it be noted that WB74's complained-of contributions are on a discussion-page as components of, yes, his advocacy for his point of view about how the article should be edited (and that's a pov that doesn't really devaiate all so much from the norm). Is WP really just about shooing away dissent, via labeling such entirely non-concretely unsanctionable actions of opponents as disruptive? Maybe soI'm pretty new hereand maybe such "I-shot-the-sheriff" stuff is the only way to maintain decorum in this Wild West-type of environment but I'm just saying it smacks of being less than idealistic toward a free interchange of ideas. — Justmeherenow  08:44, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No, behavior. See: Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive440, Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive438, Requests for checkuser/Case/WorkerBee74, Requests for checkuser/Case/WorkerBee74.  Wikidemo (talk) 09:33, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The sheer quantity of your whining exaggerated reports, Wikidemo, is absolutely not to be taken as any indication of their quality. They are whining, exaggerated reports. Die4Dixie is correct. There should be a separate ANI page, so that admins can spot this troubling pattern of disagree/ provoke/ report. Kossack4Truth (talk) 13:16, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll do my best to ignore the above personal attack.  Kossack4Truth appears to have just returned to the article himself  and we'll see what happens there.  But let's not get distracted from the issue at hand - we probably need some help with the article to make sure the consensus process stays on track.  Thanks,  Wikidemo (talk) 13:43, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Not good...revert warring seems to have resumed on the main page.. Wikidemo (talk) 14:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Eleven hours since this report was posted, Wikidemo, and the number of admins who have raced to defend you is, once again, exactly zero. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not part of this and don't need "defending". This is simply an article in need of  help.  Administratos have in the past dealt with trouble here, issuing a number of blocks, check-users, socks discovered, and attempts to mediate - as well as this new one.  Also, editors' awareness that administrators are paying attention has kept them in line more than they were previously.  I come to this place reasonably often to report abusive editing, and in most cases it's straightforward gets quickly dealt with.  This is a much more tangled situation, with the editors accused of abuse making counterclaims and personal attacks in response.  It's a lot of often thankless work for admins to clean up messes they didn't create, and nobody is getting paid.  We just seem to need a bit more of that.  Thanks,  Wikidemo (talk) 20:09, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

WorkerBee74 doesn't seem to have realized he blanked the page, at least according to this message posted on another user's talk page. He's said in the past he's contributed using a cell phone. I don't know if that explains it. He's just come off a 3-day block which I'm still looking into, but which seems to have been quite an injustice (although not on the part of the admins who dealt with it). If I were coming off a 3-day block that I knew was unjustified, I'd be spitting mad. I've asked WorkerBee to enjoy the 4th elsewhere, and his most recent edits have been constructive. Noroton (talk) 20:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Breadandsocks on a rampage trying to promote William Morris Agency
This user has created a dozen new articles in the past two hours of nonnotable and purely promotional advertisements for executives within the William Morris Agency and has rewritten the main article in the same manner. User should be temporarily blocked so page creation can be halted and user's contribs can be evaluated at COIN. Thanks, Cumulus Clouds (talk) 09:38, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the quick action. You've probably averted a serious mess.  I think the editor is trying to edit in good faith.  I've made some comments on the William Morris talk page and removed the speedy tag there.  I think we should discourage the editor from creating child articles faster than people can evaluate them, but consider the possibility that they can overcome the COI issue to create proper articles - at least that it's a debatable point for COIN.  Wikidemo (talk) 11:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you kidding me? In what possible way could their edits not be construed as a major conflict of interest? They created a dozen spam articles in a small amount of time centered around promoting one company and you're telling me that they're doing it in good faith? AGF has never been a good reason to bury our heads in the sand and I think the distance between good faith and naivety here is enormous. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 17:16, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Cumulus Clouds, are you saying that concentrating my efforts on one article is discouraged? My COI is that i'm doing a paper on this company and if you find that unacceptable I'd like an explanation. I'm doing a paper on this company and i find it rather significant at least in relation to other companies that are very much elaborated on wiki. so i set out in good faith to expand the stub that was originally in place. Could someone please review the history and explain if i'm wrong? Breadandsocks (talk) 19:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, as i said i've followed the format and content for other companies in the same industry while editing this page, except for one area: 2 or more companies also have detailed sections on their headquarters buildings. i haven't done that but plan to as i have information on it. this particular company in question is building a new struction that is one of few pollution-safe buildings in LA. Does that mean i'm promoting it just becasue its main feature is a positive one?Breadandsocks (talk) 19:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

enough is enough
some days ago I spotted a sock circus: Requests for checkuser/Case/Giovanni Giove and user:Romaioi was, because of the edits he made, a suspect in the case. He resorted to attack me personally, accusing me of lying, threatening legal action and so on. I choose to ignore him, as his heated defence heightened the suspicion that he might be the sock master. Additionally I do not answer to people that choose not adhere to WP:NPA. As per checkuser result he was not part of the sock circus and therefore I thought the matter closed, but the individual in question has now chosen to go to my talk page and to continue demanding an apology, instead of constructive work in wikipedia: his first this edit to which I did not respond and now this: "''A person who cannot be "man" enough to acknowledge their errors loses credibility" "you clearly have no idea." "your inability to acknowledge your own mistake(s)"''. I do not appreciate someone bullying me on my talk page and I definitly do not appreciate it when said individual reinserts an insulting comment I deleted from my talk page and calling me "petty" for doing so. I think some hours of cooling off would do him good and I would appreciate a stern advice to this "30+ times over" published author to adhere to WP:NPA. --noclador (talk) 16:20, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Why not just apologize? Not saying he's not acted wrongly but what harm can it do- you said he was a sock and he wasn't- apologize, then you have the moral high ground to an even greater extent. <b style="color:#FF8C00;">Sticky</b> <b style="color:#FF8C00;">Parkin</b> 22:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Ato Bolden letter
I added this to the Ato Bolden article a few months ago: "On April 20, 2008, The Guardian published the contents of a letter believed to be by Boldon to John Smith, his former coach, accusing Smith, Maurice Greene and his former agent, Emmanuel Hudson, of betraying him by obtaining banned drugs without his knowledge, lying about Greene competing without drugs and damaging his own career" This is cited, and is now being removed by a user who claims to be from Bolden's website. The user outlines their rationale here, which aludes to legal action. The user is incorrect in describing the Guardian as a tabloid, it is a highly reputable broadsheet. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 18:42, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not an admin, but in my opinion, FWIW, this is a content dispute. In view of the COI of the other editor, you are perfectly entitled to add it back and explain why on the article's talk page, the appropriate place for this stage of a content dispute. – ukexpat (talk) 19:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Left a note for the user encouraging dialogue and discouraging legal threats . Can this be closed? EyeSerene talk 19:48, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Ombudsmen Committee formal proposal
Located here. Please comment at the VP. Thanks!!! Bstone (talk) 19:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Is Chinese government website notable source?
Hi, I have once again seen what I believe to be neutural, factual edit, removed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Falun_Gong&diff=222969997&oldid=222929185

The reason given is "inserting Xinhua", however both citations are from Chinese Foreign Ministry.

I've undo the rm. Please let me know if I have done something wrong to garner the rm, or my undo is wrong in any way. Thanks! Bobby fletcher (talk) 06:56, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It could be considered that Xinhua or the Foreign Ministry are not neutral sources with regard to Falun Gong, in which case they might need to be used carefully and in appropriate context; however, there can be no basis for objecting to their use in citing the claim that the Chinese government considers Falun Gong a cult. Indeed, the Chinese government is the best possible source for the Chinese government's official position on Falun Gong (or anything). Everyking (talk) 09:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The removed edit looks fine to me, but the sourcing isn't so good. For the record, the removed statement was:
 * The Chinese government considers Falun Gong to be a cult while other countries do not.
 * and the reference was to http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/cese/eng/zt/xjflg/default.htm, however, and this contains rather crude propaganda rather than official government statements.


 * This is better: http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/ceat/det/zt/jpflg/t105141.htm


 * It is in a fairly sober tone and quotes the Chinese ambassador to Austria outlining his government's views on the nature of Falun Gong, thus supporting your statement. The Xinhua news agency is a perfectly reliable source on the statements of Chinese government officials.


 * Obviously the attitude of the Chinese government towards Falun Gong is highly relevant to Falun Gong so in my opinion the statement probably does belong in the lead.


 * This isn't really the right place to bring such a query, by the way, but it's okay. I'll make a note on your talk page on the best way to get help and advice in future. --Jenny 09:57, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

The issue here is that basically all mainstream western newspapers and academics who have researched this topic state that the Chinese Communist Party's (CCP) statements about Falun Gong, (whether on their websites or through state-media mouthpieces) post 1999, are purely propagandistic. As far as I understand, wikipedia can make it clear that the CCP holds these views and has made these statements, but it is not a vehicle for promoting them in their own right. These statements, according to the sources I refer to above, are all made within their context of the propaganda campaign against Falun Gong. Given that, specifically in terms of the lede, there kind of isn't enough space to give this context, so the media-campaign against Falun Gong is treated in its own section on the persecution of Falun Gong page. If editors think this particular point ought to be hashed out in the lede though, I guess that's another thing.--Asdfg<b style="color:black;">12345</b> 13:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I do think the statement is fine, and should be in the lead. As a great deal about Falun Gong is the controversy with the Chinese government. And Jenny is on the spot about the sources two. The second one looks much better. Samuel Sol (talk) 14:30, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

You guys really might want to look at what academics and mainstream newspapers have said about all this. I won't repeat what I've just said in the paragraph above, but there could be a bit of recommended reading for those unfamiliar with the subject. There is much of this information on the persecution of Falun Gong page. Might also refer to the part from what wikipedia is not: "Propaganda, advocacy, or recruitment of any kind, commercial, political, religious, or otherwise. Of course, an article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to describe the topic from a neutral point of view." -- I interpret this to mean that we are to make clear that the CCP has made these statements, but to qualify them within the context of what academics and journalists have said. As the sources themselves say, that is within the context of a cultural-revolution style propaganda campaign to vilify the discipline, as an element in orchestrating a successful persecution against those who practiced it in China at that time.--Asdfg<b style="color:black;">12345</b> 16:44, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * What you said about use of Falun Gong's newspaper is exactley what the admins are saying. Epoch Times is paid for by Falun Gong, and is purely propagandic and political - but you insist it can be used for Falun Gong's view.
 * What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
 * Bobby fletcher (talk) 23:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

There are significant differences, in that the thrust of the "Falun Gong view" here is essentially human rights and freedom of belief. That happens to align with the whole ideological foundation of western civilisation, and therefore basically all western media and academia too--generally speaking, people value these ideals. It means, broadly speaking, that it has turned out that western institutions have come down "on the Falun Gong side" in terms of freedom of belief and human rights. Or you can read the Holocaust page--do you see a "well, Hitler said this... and other people said this...", a kind of evenhanded weighing up of the two sides? WP:UNDUE requires taking the overall context into account, and that's why I had made reference to the persecution of Falun Gong page for a large number of high-quality sources who clearly put forward these views. I'm just explaining, in my understanding, the differences in the situation. Falun Gong sources are still not reliable sources when it comes to this subject, and they merely present the Falun Gong view, whatever that means. But I think ignoring the wider context that certain statements were made in is ignoring WP:NPOV. These are just some thoughts I had, they may not necessarily be correct. If you have a different understanding I may be enriched by it.--Asdfg<b style="color:black;">12345</b> 23:54, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * What are you trying to say? Wikipedia is not a democracy or human rights organization to begin with, and your moralizing and comparisons with the Holocaust is invalid, considering that's a widely accepted fact proved beyond reasonable doubt, whereas the extent of FLG's crackdown is still very much disputed and up to debate.--PCPP (talk) 13:09, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

other thing about this might best be demonstrated by a rhetorical question: "would it be normal to have on the Chinese Communist Party page, something in the lede about how Falun Gong practitioners actually believe that the CCP itself is an evil cult?" -- I assume the answer is no. The CCP isn't a reliable source for commenting on Falun Gong, though it can comment on what its "position" on Falun Gong is. The Falun Gong pages are about Falun Gong, not about what the CCP says about Falun Gong. It gives far too much emphasis to their view to put it in the lede. What the CCP has said about Falun Gong is an element of the persecution of Falun Gong; its comments do not constitute remarks about the nature of Falun Gong independent of that. I'm making the same point, but trying to illuminate it differently. What is the subject of the page? Falun Gong. What if there was no persecution? Would it matter what the Chinese Communist Party says about Falun Gong? What about comments from other governments, political parties, or whatever, shouldn't they also be included? The lede should basically be about the subject of the article, and the CCP is not a reliable source for commenting on Falun Gong. Its remarks ought to be treated within the context of the actions they have taken against Falun Gong practitioners. Or do we start the article on Judaism with...--Asdfg<b style="color:black;">12345</b> 04:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Look Asdfg12345, the most important thing about Falun Gong, for us totally unaware of its practice is the controversy with the CCP. One single statement about it on the article, does not fail WP:UNDUE, specially, as I said on your talk page, for THIS specifically piece of information they are a WP:RS. And about your bit about propaganda. I read that article almost as an altar and a praise to Falun Gong practices. It totally fails WP:NPOV, and I'm deeply worried about a possible WP:COI from you, since the only contributions I could see on your history are related to Falun Gong. Samuel Sol (talk) 12:39, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, personally, I'm most interested in this particular topic. I'm interested in Chinese culture generally too, though I have prioritised contributing to the Falun Gong pages. I think possible NPOV problems should definitely be addressed on the relevant pages. About the other things, I won't repeat what I have said, but since the arguments have not been responded to, I think they are outstanding. Forgive me for asking, but is it professional to play the man and not the ball?--Asdfg<b style="color:black;">12345</b> 16:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Writing as an onlooker who has no dog in this fight, Asdfg12345, your argument against using CCP or Xinhua here strikes me as an act of wikilawyering. While these websites are not considered neutral or accurate about the Falun Gong itself, as Everyking pointed out above they are reliable about what the Chinese government thinks. And since no one here (as far as I can see) denies that the Chinese government is acting in a hostile fashion against the Falun Gong, inclusion of their opinion is relevant (as opposed to, say, the Larouchies or the Ethiopian Orthodox Church). The only gain I can see here if these sources are excluded from this article is to suppress mentioning what the Chinese position is at all -- which does not help our users. Suppose a user wants to know what the Chinese POV is in order to debate & refute it: by not including a link to this source, we have made it more difficult for this person to prepare for this debate. I believe this responds to all of your objections, even the ones you do not want to repeat. -- llywrch (talk) 19:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, please allow me to clarify. Of course I believe that the CCP's stated views on Falun Gong are relevant to these articles, and ought to be included in a fashion. However, I was questioning the reasoning behind putting them in the lede. Since the CCP is in this context a reliable source only for its own views, not for Falun Gong itself, I don't see how they should be accorded a place in the lede, (they are not representative of mainstream academic opinion, for example) given the context etc.. I have just read about wikilawyering, and that is really not my intention. In all these difficult discussions over edits, I do not believe I have ever turned the discussion personal, or engaged in any personal attacks. I am not just cooking up arguments and throwing up roadblocks, that is not how I operate. In my view, I had raised legitimate concerns as to putting the CCP's view in the lede, and they weren't addressed. I apologise for not explaining more clearly what my problem was.--Asdfg<b style="color:black;">12345</b> 22:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

"Quote they are not representative of mainstream academic opinion, for example, you have any proof of this?--PCPP (talk) 13:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you asking me to provide a source to prove that the Chinese Communist Party is not representative of mainstream academic opinion on Falun Gong?--Asdfg<b style="color:black;">12345</b> 00:48, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Admins, I'm sorry to bother you like this, but another editor has deleted the Chinese government source, again:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Falun_Gong&diff=223364394&oldid=223363516
 * There has been a patttern of circling the wagon with certain editors, and individual editor wishing to edit this page for a balanced POV has been bullied, harrased, blanked and hacked to the point many editors have given up.
 * What should I do? Most of my edit are being systematically removed like this, and these FLG pages are essentially FLG promotional material, as admin Samuel Sol has noticed.
 * There's also concern with organized abuse of Wikipedia. I'm glad admin Samuel Sol also noticed possible COI. If the Admins have the time to investigate, I'll provide my evidence of possible journalist from Falun Gong funded publication posting their own work here.
 * Bobby fletcher (talk) 15:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Why don't you contribute to the ongoing discussion about that material? You cannot simply ignore the arguments being raised that the edit was problematic in x number of ways, and complain that you have been "bulled, harassed, blanked and hacked." There really is discussion that needs to be engaged with about how the page ought to be edited.--Asdfg<b style="color:black;">12345</b> 00:48, 5 July 2008 (UTC)