Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive497

Discussion that needs to be speedily closed
As indicated by multiple editors in this discussion, please note that deletion "is not (my italics) a legal option" as the nominator merged some of that article's content that other editors other than the nominator had originally written prior to the nomination (see  and  for the merge of content written by myself and others and here for the GFDL regarding such merges}.  Thus, technically, because the discussion can only legally close as "keep," "merge", "redirect", or "no consensus", i.e. anything other than "delete", it should be speedily closed without prejudice for a talk page discussion on the merits of the merge done by the nominator a few weeks back. I did ask the nominator to withdraw the nomination prior to posting here, but was rebuffed as seen here, which seems to suggest that the purpose of the nomination is to have some kind of forced redirect, while in that edit he indicates he is not opposed to a redirect with the edit history kept. It doesn't seem right to thus start a deletion discussion if the article cannot be legally deleted when the nominator had merged the content a few weeks prior and in effect is not really after deletion anyway. If it was called "articles for confirming merges and redirects" okay, but it is not. I am also somewhat concerned that the merge did not acknowledge the page it was clearly merged from something an admin had also cautioned the user about as seen here. In any event, I am not requesting any action against the nominator, but as the discussion cannot end in "delete" there is no purpose for the discussion to continue in under the auspices of an articles for deletion discussion. Incidentally, the two main characters of Tyris and Ax are actually reasonably notable (obviously not on par with Mario and Sonic, but recognizable to pretty much anybody familiar with video games) and covered in numerous reliable sources in multiple languages around the world (see for example, this and this) as well as in various magazines that I have seen without necessarily having online archives. Thank you for your time and help! Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 01:17, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Any article can be deleted at AfD if those at AfD make a consensus for it. There's no such thing as an article that must legally (lol) be kept or merged as far as I know. I know admins sometimes do a 'history merge' of some articles, but I don't think that's often necessary.  If he says where he merged the info from in the edit summary (if that's really the case) that's usually all that's needed. Sticky Parkin 02:25, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, he doesn't say in the edit summary, but given that "merge" edit coincided with this redirect, it is obvious where it was merged from; however, if the other edit, i.e. the redirect is also deleted, then that would not be clear. Moreover, based on the comment on his talk page, he seems really after the merge and redirect and hopes that a deletion discussion, which is not what AfDs are for, will somehow be a means of bypassing a proper talk page merge discussion.  And per the GFDL, we have to keep the contribution histories in tact as I have seen argued many times.  Best, --A NobodyMy talk 02:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think A Nobody's point is that since the nominator merged some of the information already, the proper (as per guidelines) outcome would be a merge and not a delete so the edit history won't be lost. "Legal" was an unfortunate choice of words. I don't know if this is true or not as I haven't looked into it, and I'm not sure ANI is the place for this discussion, but maybe someone with the appropriate expertise can offer an opinion on whether the edit history should be kept (effectively resulting in a merge) if the nominator of an AfD has merged parts of the article without merging the edit history? ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The relevant section of the GFDL license is "In the combination, you must combine any sections Entitled "History" in the various original documents, forming one section Entitled "History"; likewise combine any sections Entitled "Acknowledgements", and any sections Entitled "Dedications". You must delete all sections Entitled "Endorsements." So a full history merge would be required. RMHED (talk) 02:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I was quoting someone from the discussion. I cut a finger on my right hand pretty good (I'm right handed) and so my typing and all is a bit off tonight. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 02:39, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * While it's correct that the article history mustn't be deleted, the deletion discussion about having an article of that topic is still a valid and at the right place. A history merge is not recommendable in this particular case since the page histories overlap, WP:HISTMERGE recommends moving it into a subpage into Talk space. -- Amalthea 02:58, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If the article's history can't be deleted as a result of the merge, then Articles for Deletion really isn't the right venue. A discussion should have taken place on the article's talk page to build consensus for the merge and redirect. Or it needs to be made clear that the only acceptable/appropriate closes of the discussion in question are "keep," "no consensus," or "merge and redirect."  Best, --A NobodyMy talk 03:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * A possible result is still to remove it from article space, as I said above, and AfD is the proper place to discuss that. I personally agree that a redirect is the "worst" outcome in this discussion, but it doesn't call for a procedural speedy closure. Cheers, Amalthea  03:49, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Wouldn't ignoring the rules make sense in this case? It's very understandable to assert that this is Articles for deletion and not Articles for discussion, and I would certainly agree, but to bring a lot of users in the wrong (i.e. those straight siding for deletion) because what in my opinion is nothing more than a technicality seem to accomplish little besides getting in the way of maintaining the encyclopedia; a speedy close and proposed move of the discussion would accomplish just that. MuZemike  ( talk ) 03:56, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * IAR applies to community-created policies. It's not an valid argument to ignore the site license.--chaser - t 04:07, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should have an "articles for discussion"? Also, the two main characters Ax and Tyris are mentioned in international newspaper and magazine reviews, previews, etc. of the games they appear in and in some of these reviews at decent length.  These reviews, previews, etc. verify much of the information in the article, which means significant coverage in reliable secondary or third-party sources and thus unoriginal research.  See, for example, David Choquet, "Golden Axe," 1000 Game Heroes (Taschen, 2002), 331-334.  I do see and agree that the article should have better citations, but a quick glance on Google News and in some of my video game magazines shows that the characters are integral parts of the series and do receive enough out of universe coverage to justify their coverage.  With that said, I wouldn't be opposed to a merge and redirect that maintains the edit history so that editors can use the vast multitude of sources available to improve the content when they have the sources to work from rather than having to start over, but in any event, my concern is that content I and others had been working on was merged unilaterally a few weeks back by the nominator to another article without attributing it to us in the edit summary followed by a challenge of the redirect by IPs (see here), and then instead of discussing the validity of the redirects on a talk page just nominated the article with our contributions for deletion thereby making it (if deleted) so that those of who actually wrote that content would not be acknowledged.  Best, --A NobodyMy talk 04:35, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I wondered where this new meme had come from. As far as I can tell, this standard has not been applied in the past on any wide scale - it only gets a single line in Deletion policy, which then points to an essay for clarification. If this is going to be used extensively (and frankly I'd bet my house that it'll be used in every fictional-content AfD from now until Armageddon now) then it really needs to be made clearer on the policy page exactly what outcomes are acceptable for AfDs. If we're now saying that a conclusion of "delete because all material has been merged" now explicitly requires a history merge in all cases it should be made clear - I'd rather that than have hundreds of protected redirects. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Would you please clarify which meme, single line, and essay you mean? I have an interest in the general discussion, but I'm unclear on this specific thread. Thanks. Flatscan (talk) 05:17, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The meme is "deletion of articles which have been merged is illegal", the single line is "Note that an outcome of "merge and delete" may potentially cause GFDL problems if attribution for contributed content is lost in the process. The essay merge and delete discusses this" in Deletion policy, and the essay is WP:MAD. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Regarding this, please note that he is still unilaterally "merging" without discussion and without indicating where the information is being merged from. See this and this.  I don't get what is so hard about indicating where the content was merged from as I indicate as much when I merge.  Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 15:57, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I shouldn't have used the word legal. After reading this discussion, I suggest moving the page to a talk subpage for merging to retain attribution. That allows for both deletion of this specific page and retention of the edit history. - Mgm|(talk) 13:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * By the way, they did apparently also make a toy of the character as well. Moreover, because the characters appear in multiple games, this article serves as a sort of gateway to those other articles.  Best, --A NobodyMy talk 16:55, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Moulton again is after me
This time on Editor review/Rootology. I don't know if we can do anything beyond an extreme thing like a range block, but that would be overkill. Would someone mind semi-protecting that page to keep him off it? He's indefinitely banned here, on Meta, on Wikiversity, and from WMF IRC channels for repeatedly harassing, trolling, and outing people. His IPs today are listed here. rootology ( C )( T ) 19:49, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Rangeblocking I'm told would take out a quarter of Boston - which I am not opposed to, but I hate Massachusetts and all it stands for. IPs blocked.--Tznkai (talk) 19:57, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've sprotected the page. I agree on the blocks - there isn't anything to do other than deprive a ton of innocent Verizon users of access. --B (talk) 20:00, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks guys. rootology ( C )( T ) 20:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And what do you have against Massachusetts, Tznkai? :P SirFozzie (talk) 20:13, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Dunno what his damage with you all is, but having grown up just south of there, I have a problem with your accents. Oh, and your speed traps, but your evil pales in comparison to the living hell that is I-95 in Rhode Island. rootology ( C )( T ) 20:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Massachusetts competes with Maryland for worst possible drivers fer starters.--Tznkai (talk) 21:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Bah! Most of the nation think driving is a non contact sport. Massachusetts drivers know it's a contact sport. Boston drivers know the real truth. It's a combat sport. (Anyway, enough off-topic drivel) :D SirFozzie (talk) 21:09, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Have you driven on Pennsylvania roads recently? I95 through PA is like competing on The Running Man. – ukexpat (talk) 21:27, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't like their fireworks laws. :) Protonk (talk) 21:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

More Moulton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/68.163.98.159 rootology ( C )( T ) 02:28, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Blocked already.  S HEFFIELD S TEEL TALK 16:57, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Blocked user returns as IP
Blocked user has returned as User:85.104.174.67 to continue edit-waring at Azerbaijani people and Chuvash people. A quick look at the history of the latter article will make the connection between the two plain. Could some one please give him a timeout. Aramgar (talk) 20:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've semi-protected Chuvash people. Edit history shows that this is not the only POV-warring IP who keeps on reverting there. See also Suspected sock puppets/Fnr Kllrb. EdJohnston (talk) 16:08, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

National Revival of Poland article again
Just as one disruptive editor (User:Krzyzowiec got 1 year ban, another newly created account User:Pedro Alfonso de Cule stepped in to continue his traditions - tagging article with POV template and flaming talk page with offensive slurs "i think that person whose wrote this shit is probably fag and left wing shit" and his hate philosophy about who should be eliminated from society "i hate this people and i want to eliminates this type of persons form a society".M0RD00R (talk) 14:50, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd file a SSP report but I'm not sure how and I'm a bit busy, should probably be blocked for abuse anyway, and their comment removed by an admin. Verbal   chat  14:56, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I can file RFCU, but I think it is of secondary importance whether it is socking, meat-puppetry or off-wiki canvassing. Hate speeches should not be tolerated. M0RD00R (talk) 15:05, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree having read the rant in full. Indef block and something done about the IP. Verbal   chat  15:10, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I concur. The edit is far beyond the pale and I would have no problem with an immediate indef block. Nsk92 (talk) 16:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Indefinitely blocked for disruptive editing. Ioeth (talk contribs friendly) 16:44, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

IP threat
Threat from school IP; reported to administrative and technical contacts for school. Reported here to document fact of report. Kablammo (talk) 22:24, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Blocked for three hours due to recency of the edit. Good work on your efforts to report this. Thank you. Pedro : Chat  22:27, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you confirm the school knows of this vs an email sent to an address which might never be checked? Bstone (talk) 22:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I suggest that if you can't find an administrative telephone number, ring one of these and ask for one. &mdash; neuro(talk) 22:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I called and spoke to Mike, their IT guy. He says he will be contacting authorities and taking the appropriate steps. Case closed. Bstone (talk) 22:56, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Good call and response. Thanks all! Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:02, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Image uploads by Kourosh ziabari
Just came across, who has uploaded a large number of photographs, most or all of which seem to be copyvios. I identified sources for three of them and speedied those; I think it is safe to assume all the others are copyvios of the same type (widely different sizes, web resolution, heterogeneous or missing camera data, all the usual signs). Could somebody help deleting? It's a bunch, and it's late here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:00, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * No way an image like Image:Iran-cement.jpg is not a copyvio. What did he do, rent a helicopter to make the photography so he could upload it for free to wikipedia? As for web resolution, EXIF info says that Image:Rasht-square.jpg was originally 2304x1728 image, why on hell has he uploaded a 288x216 version? If he is the real photographer, then he has to be told that Real Photographers&trade; upload to Commons, and they do it on full resolution. He needs to provide higher resolutions and desist from using Photoshop to reduce photographies to smallish proportions. The thumbnailing work is already done by the wikimedia software. --Enric Naval (talk) 23:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * And yet no one has done anything about it as of yet.  Little Red Riding Hood  talk  02:36, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Image:Rasht-museum.gif is copyvio from (it's a cropped version). Nothing else to say here. Please speedy delete also the rest of his images as blatant copyvio, as they share the same characteristics mentioned by FutPerf:
 * Image:Local-dress-rasht.jpg,
 * Image:Guilan-univ.jpg,
 * Image:Rasht-bazaar.jpg,
 * Image:Tehran-nightview.jpg,
 * Image:Mirza-1.jpg
 * Image:Mirza-shahrdari.jpg,
 * Image:Kolah-farangi.jpg,
 * Image:Sheevan.jpg,
 * Image:Rasht-airport.jpg, (very obvious)
 * Image:Shahrdaari.jpg
 * Image:Sardar-jangal-stadium.jpg
 * Image:Kadus-hotel.jpg
 * Image:Anzali-darya.JPEG
 * Image:Masouleh-4.JPEG
 * Image:Guilan-flowers.JPEG
 * Image:Rasht-villages.JPEG
 * Image:Guilan-women.JPEG
 * Image:Hamed-Haddadi.JPEG
 * Image:Samad-Nik.JPEG
 * Image:Rasht-01.png


 * and give him a Formal Warning&trade; about ever uploading again any low-res photo from a website. He's welcome to re-upload photos at full resolution directly from digital camera. --Enric Naval (talk) 19:09, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

The Dangers of Wikipedia and Facebook, in regards to WP:OUTING
I recently requested oversight, as an IP has left a note on my editor review(which I have deleted all links to, as it should have been archived, but even more so because of concern that I have regarding the matter I am posting about) which is in regards to my FaceBook account. The message was detailed enough in my opinion that it warrants extreme concern. I do not know how this IP found my facebook account, but he/her did, and that means that many other editors are in danger of being outed by malicious and obsessive vandals.—  Dæ dαlus Contribs  06:21, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * How is this an incident that administrators should be notified about?— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 06:29, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * This is a largely unavoidable problem (Assuming that both the facebook page and your habits here remain unchanged). The researchers working with the Netflix Prize discovered that individuals could reliably be identified from aggregate data due to idiosyncrasies in preferences.  In other words, a lot of people liked Titanic, but not a lot of people liked both King of Hearts and Hot Fuzz.  If you have sufficient identifying information on your facebook page that can be linked to your userpage or your editing habits, google can do the rest.  My general suggestion is not to overshare, but I know that doesn't help you in your specific position. Protonk (talk) 06:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I do not know how this user found my facebook account, as I have no information on either pertaining to either.—  Dæ dαlus Contribs  06:54, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't either. Barring a name or college being dropped, what I listed was where I would start if I was looking. Protonk (talk) 06:56, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I found what is probably your facebook after about 5 seconds of googling. John Reaves 08:28, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * But there are probably a good number of people with the last name "daedalus" so it may or may not be his. The IP might have just gotten lucky with their guess. In any event, incidents like these are bound to happen, even with measures taken, and can only really be dealt with when they come around (and dealt with ASAP).  Master&amp;  Expert  ( Talk ) 09:01, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, awhile back, and by awhile, I mean a few hours ago, I got a confirmation from oversight that the offending diff has been deleted. As to google, I tried that, and it turned up no links to facebook that could be used to find my profile, so I'm at a loss as to how it did.—  Dæ dαlus Contribs  10:53, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I mailed you a few minutes after you posted this, when I saw it here on ANI, via your WP account. The problem is that using the fairly unique username here, if it is tied to you "IRL" elsewhere with information you revealed, is a give-away and a half. Like mentioned above it's easy to find with <1 minute of Google, Yahoo, or whatever else. It's not a WP security issue specifically, unfortunately; it's a case of having given away a lot of personal info tied to a unique phrase that isn't shared by others in public. :( rootology ( C )( T ) 14:18, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

(Breaks cover) The following has been posted elsewhere ''Someone ought to also tell Daedalus that he meant "born yesterday," not "borne yesterday" in his Wiki post. Also that when you respond to a private email threatening to "make a note of it," (LOL) it also has that unfortunate by-product of revealing your email and name when you send it.'' For certain reasons I can't post the link to this elsewhere though other readers will be able to confirm its existence.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:13, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Emailing using the wiki system does reveal the email you've specified. Make an email account you can use specially for wiki, such as a hotmail etc, if you don't use it on other sites it's not as easy for people to find you by googling the email.  Don't use the default (or what were the default) privacy settings on facebook!  Change it so only your friends can view it.  That's how most people have it nowadays.  Then don't friend people you don't know well and trust not to be likely to fall out with you.:) That way outsiders can see hardly any of your info or even see who you have friended on there.. Sticky Parkin 13:30, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Or just, like, get over it. I use my real name here.  I can be e-researched in excruciating detail.  Life goes on.  I say that as a long-term professional online privacy activist.  If you are super-squeamish about your identity, then hide it better. If you are simply protective of your secrets, keep offline those things you are not comfortable with being public. If you don't care about privacy at all, just don't be dirt-stupid and enable identity thieves and blackmailers. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 13:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Says it all really. -- R OGER D AVIES  talk 14:07, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Some people genuinely don't realise stuff like how much can be googled from their email addy or whatever or that it's shown by the WP email system. That's not necessarily their fault- no-one knows everything. Then it's just a matter of making sure it doesn't matter again, if you're concerned.  I imagine it's a bit creepy for an IP to say they know stuff about you you didn't think was common knowledge or realise was as discoverable as that.  A lot of people aren't so concerned about privacy issues unless or until they have some sort of intimidation or attempt to creep you out through it.  Unless you have experienced it you can't really know what it's like- it's a shock more than anything.  I suppose whether you experience it or not depends on whether you have the bad luck to annoy the wrong person. <b style="color:#FF8C00;">Sticky</b> <b style="color:#FF8C00;">Parkin</b> 14:26, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * After a pair of "learning experiences", I just decided to just use my real name on the internet. After all, anyone willing to hurt you will eventually find your real name with relative ease whether you like or not, and it's not much of a protection in case of a lawsuit. On hindsight, I should have chosen a cool pseudonym for wikipedia and then made clear who is the real person behind it, as its identity would have been discovered anyways and then I would have been accused of hiding stuff or something. Of course, I reserve the right to use un-associated aliases for fun-related stuff that I don't want or need to see associated to my name like characters on online games :3, but for serious stuff I simply use my real name. --Enric Naval (talk) 20:20, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia, whereto now, or the psychosomatic mafia
Within just a few days, several things happened to make me conclude that Wikipedia has dropped down the ladder of humanity the last final steps. I always knew that it would eventually happen, but didn't expect it to go so fast. Maybe I am just fortunate to be in a section that is at the frontier, but from what I have seen certainly not by much, so keep reading: this concerns you, too; if not today, then tomorrow.

When I temporarily returned to editing about a week ago, on the specific request of a number of good users, I found the articles I was interested in, in a more sorry state than ever before. They were full of own research and synthesis of editors, false attribution to sources, heavy weight attached to fringe theories and outlier research, etcetera, and with all kinds of quality research and sources that we had collectively gathered the year before removed.

I started to improve the texts, by dealing with the issues one by one. A few other users helped. Then, a number of things happened in quick succession.


 * 1) Every single one of our edits, some two dozen in total, got reverted, without explanation.
 * 2) The two users responsible for the reverts refused to discuss their actions.
 * 3) When I protested against their massive reverting, my protest was called frivolous and it was forbidden to me to protest again.
 * 4) From then on, our edits - mostly different ones, the articles grew new issues faster than we could keep up with - got removed every day, and every day I saw the articles transformed further.
 * 5) When I attempted to initiate dispute resolution on one of the talk pages, my comments were modified. When I protested against this, all - mind, you: all admins, and there were many that got themselves involved, declared that it was alright for people to modify my comments if they didn't agree with them, as often as they wished, while my restoring them was blatant editwarring. The regular expert on the vandalism policy talk page said different, but he got ignored.

This is not about me though, I couldn't care less if it was not for the following. It merely illustrates how things work now, and I am far from the only user with such experiences.


 * The real issue is this.

A year ago, a bunch of well-meaning users - including myself, patient, but also a published scientist and recognized experience expert - were happily at work to improve articles such as chronic fatigue syndrome. We found and added a lot of material, and got awarded for our work with a B-status, quite high for such a difficult topic. We even had so much material, that it was decided to create a number of sub-articles, and work was started on those. Sure, there was an editor who occasionally added his pet personal theory to the text, but we patiently dealt with that each time it happened, and the articles kept correctly indicating that CFS is a case definition for a genuine, biomedical disorder, formally known by the diagnosis of myalgic encephalomyelitis, with all the reliable sources to support so.

The situation, and the articles, changed dramatically when two new users started to edit them. In rapid succession, the articles got renamed, stripped from all biomedical sources, and rewritten. If someone protested, they got intimidated. Between the two of them they declared to always have consensus and ignored any other voice, and several medical admins protected their edits if the need arose.

Although the transformation is not yet complete, the current articles now suggest that CFS is not so much a known medical disorder, but more of an unknown behavioural issue, one that can be cured if patients didn't stubbornly refuse to take cognitive behavioural therapy.

It is furthermore stated that, if this is changed back, we purposely hurt patients, and that I am probably getting paid for trying to get biomedical information back in.

No, I do not get paid. In fact, I have no income whatsoever, and expect not to survive this winter because of it; I barely survived the last because of the severity of my illness.

So this is where we are now, and CFS is not the only topic where this has happened either.


 * The project, that was started to freely spread knowledge, is now spreading propaganda.

Of the users attending the topic of CFS who saw this coming earlier, half a dozen have been permabanned, some on the specific request of Jimbo Wales. The rest have simply been scared off. A whole lot of medical pages is now dominated by a few users who are rewording them to suggest that they are psychosomatic, by falsely attributing conclusions to sources that do not support them, by leaving out the sources (the vast majority, and the highest quality) that say the opposite.

I post this here, in part because Wikipedia offers no better place, but also because it is also an admin issue. You, admins, were made aware of the problem often enough, and you stood by, not idly, but actively supporting what is happening, applying a set of randomly liberal rules to one side, and another set of randomly strict rules to the other.

It is time to make up your mind, because there will not be another opportunity for you. Decide if you want Wikipedia to be the world's best propaganda machine, or to stay true to its original purpose. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 02:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * For anybody with the time and inclination, I would suggest a patient read through Guido's talk page history. Pay close attention to any diff where the byte count drops significantly.  Read the text in the left column of the diff.  Draw your own conclusion.  WLU (t) (c) (rules -  simple rules) 02:56, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ^ yeah, that. &mdash; neuro(talk) 03:02, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I am very sorry about Guido's medical problems, I wish him all best. I hope he takes more care about him self, less about how to change Wikipedia policies like wp:medrs. RetroS1mone   talk  04:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If Guido's block log wasn't as long as my arm, his opinion might have a bit more weight. Half  Shadow  04:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I have not looked into the nature of this complaint, but I feel very uneasy seeing comments focusing on the user instead of content. It is called ad hominem, and is a logical fallacy. Please don't do that. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 17:13, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * WP is about consensus. When you have 10 simpletons and 1 doctor/engineer/scientist, the simpletons view always wins. My advice would be to give up - wikipedia is about general info for the yokels, it will never be a 'proper' encylopedia for more technical issues.--Dacium (talk) 04:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * that's an overly insulting appraisal of this situation. I went and looked at the article back in April, and now. there are massive changes, I agree. However, I saw neither the spin that Guido alleges (the 'it's all in your head'), nor the brutal ignorance of all other comers, in fact, Guido has multiple edits in the last week. It also looks like one line 'sections', like Insecticide, have been combined with others, or removed if fairly orphaned by their sectioning. All of it looks like it cleaned up a bloated article, shepherded by an editor with an obvious POV (see Guido's talk page), and inflated by editors of the opposing stripe to those cleaning it up. Combine that with guido's block log, and I'm left thinking this is all for the best for Wikipedia, and if we lose Guido, then so be it. ThuranX (talk) 04:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not a Yokel. Why don't you drop by WP:MED and tell them your theory on how wikipedia works.  In my opinion if a scientist or expert on a subject can only rely on their credentials in a discussion, it isn't the fault of the community that it doesn't go their way.  Just because someone can't work with other editors or can't present views in proper context doesn't mean that the rest of wikipedia is broken. Protonk (talk) 04:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Among the contributors to the page - RetroS1mone, who relies heavily on pubmed results and believes The Lancet and Journal of the American Medical Association are highly reliable, more so than the now-unpublished, not medline indexed Journal of Chronic Fatigue (see this RSN discussion). User:Jfdwolff, according to his userpage a doctor and certainly an admin who has managed to not be de-sysopped, suggesting a certain degree of trust.  User:Davidruben, another doctor and another admin, also not de-sysopped.  User:Sciencewatcher consistently cites reliable sources.   User:Tekaphor has been contributing from a CFS-patient position and manages to be quite fruitful in my experience.  The page is heavily sourced, to highly reliable journals.  That doesn't seem the work of yokels.  WLU (t) (c) (rules -  simple rules) 12:21, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Our self-declared expert Guido den Broeder has just indicated that all this was just an experiment to test the behaviour of human beings.... Is there any reason to let this continuous source of disruption edit Wikipedia any longer? HE considers it a health hazard anyway... Fram (talk) 14:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ignore it. If he wants to test-drive his results, he can take it to WP:FAIL.  It doesn't actually impact the project in any way, it's not a blockable offence, why stir the drama?  WLU (t) (c) (rules -  simple rules) 15:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Not a blocklable offence? Assuming that the statement on his userpage is truthful (the purpose, not the results), he has been disrupting Wikipedia for nearly two years just to prove a point... The small hope I still had that he was a well-intentioned but misguided editor has been vaporized, and the chance of him ever changing his editing behavior is actually subzero. Oh well, I'll shut up now :-) Fram (talk) 15:24, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I support long term ban or indef ban for continual disruption, legal threats, edit warring, incivility, advocating against NPOV, for assorted actions against policy, and for general actions not of benefit to the project, as evidenced by his post above and the "experiment" on his user page. His complete failure to understand the reasons for his previous block, and the implication on his talk page that he would continue to act in this way, while stating a conspiracy against him, all go to show that he needs an enforced wikibreak. Verbal   chat  15:20, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed, with the caveat that the did come up with some valid results. Many of the points he raised are well worth pondering. // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #36454F;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#36454F;">  editor review 15:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Experts should demonstrate their expertise through their ability to cite the literature. They'll generally have the knowledge of the key articles, access to a far superior library than most wikipedians, both electronic and paper, and can type out a decent sentence.  I've never seen reason to let them rule a page and ignore our processes simply because of purported expertise.
 * Much of the disruption caused by Guido should vanish now, since apparently he's no longer posting on talk pages. If disruption occurs again, that's the point at which I would suggest the final step of an indef block/ban be discussed.  This experiment post has no real affect on anything or anyone if we don't let it, so why bother making a big deal about it?  That's how wikipedia ends up on the news - '"Free" encyclopedia editable by "anyone" blocks sufferers of chronic conditions' - I don't think the headline would in any way accurately capture the situation, but I'd rather not see it.  Though I'll live to regret it, if a block/ban is supported I would suggest one final "if you screw up, you're permablocked" warning.  It's probably a futile gesture since I've never seen any evidence of remorse, change or suggestion he was going to take the advice, but what can I say I'm a slave to optimism.  WLU (t) (c) (rules -  simple rules) 15:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Having recently wandered into this mess after declining Guido's unblock request, I have read through his entire talk page history on a diff by diff basis as well as picked through a month of history. What I have seen is a complete disinterest in getting along with others in a way that makes him a net negative to the project. I had originally suggested to them that they might need mediation to fix the problems on the CFS article, but after fully exploring the issue, I think that the best thing for the article would be an indef block on Guido. I would fully support such a block. Trusilver  15:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

strongly support block I'd just like to say that in the UK this is often pretty much treated by doctors and government as a psychosomatic condition, so if someone was trying to make this perception of it clear when the article had previously excessively leant towards other theories, the 'psychosomatic mafia' are on the other side of the debate.:) I hope other editors exist who could keep an article WP:NPOV about a physical illness which is treated with anti-depressants, sometimes sleeping tablets, counselling and light exercise, :) and that they aren't threatened with being blocked by a 'psychosomatic mafia'. The person bringing this complaint clearly has a Point of View that this is a physical illness, perhaps to the extent of having a WP:COI, and we must avoid chasing off in general or having a chilling effect on editors who are less personally emotionally involved and so more able to bring about WP:NPOV.<b style="color:#FF8C00;">Sticky</b> <b style="color:#FF8C00;">Parkin</b> 16:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Sticky Parkin, thanks for reacting to the content of my post. The treatments you mention are, of all treatments, precisely the ones with the poorest results in practice, with exercise in fact hurting more patients than they help. Such treatments are indeed based on a psychosomatic model of the disease, but that model is not the mainstream view internationally, and in fact the UK have been ordered by the WHO to adjust their deviant classification, to which they complied. Treatments based on the biomedical nature of the disease (diet, balance, rest, vitamine B12, painkillers, carnitine, melatonine, etc.) produce far better results. Guido den Broeder (talk, visit) 14:54, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ANI isn't the place to discuss content. The talk page is the place for that.  Regards the substance of the post, anything that's well believed should be easy to demonstrate.  WLU (t) (c) (rules -  simple rules) 17:09, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As someone who understands the passions of Guido about their illness and wanting the artilce to show the truth of the disease to save others from the same pitfalls, I have to say that Guido cannot edit these articles. He is very passionate about the articles and I understand where he is coming from which is why I tried to see if I could help with some of the tensions arising.  Unfortunately I don't think I did help stop anything, this I am sad to say.  Guido is a good knowledgable editor but he takes others editing very personal and this doesn't work well here for the well of the project.  There are a lot of active editors at CFS so I think that Guido not being one of them would be the best for the project.  I don't know what to make of some of his recent comments like his talk page notice or his examples of what the policy of 3RR is.   I think for the health of this editor and the best of project, that maybe Guido should either edit for awhile in non-medical related areas of his choice or he be blocked from editing.  I say all of this with a heavy heart and a strong understanding of how he feels.  -- Crohnie Gal  Talk  17:03, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * @ Malcolm - sometimes the editor is the problem. That's why we have blocks, bans, RFC/U, arbitration and WP:SOCK.  Have a look through even the Dec. 1-3rd portion of Guido's talk page, then decide if we are being unfair.  The content portion of the [[chronic fatigue syndrome article has been settled or is working its way through.  The issue is in part the resurrection of previously-settled content issues by the same editor, with no new reasoning beyond "I want it" and no new sources to start a dialogue around.  But we have ANI for a reason - to get outside input.  Perhaps we're being overzealous.  Please, review and let us know.  I'm pretty certain it's not a tiny cabal forcing out a good editor.  Virtually all admins that have tried to help Guido have enventually turned away.  The way Guido responds to this ( and  in response to this) kinda speaks for itself. [[User:WLU|WLU]] (t) (c) (rules -  simple rules) 17:26, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Certainly, the user may be a problem. But even if that is true beyond a shadow of a doubt, all the more reason not to use ad hominems. I know that I can just shrug them off -- as can most healthy people -- but, if someone is known to be ill, an attack on his/her person could have serious negative consequences. Please do not do that. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 20:14, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That is a good thought, we should all be nice w/ each other, but how do you stop abuse, if I say I am sick do i get to attack everyone, be abusing people, edit warring?? Is it good idea treating editors different based from if they say they have a medical condition?? RetroS1mone   talk  03:54, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * @Malcom, just because I have a serious medical condition I would not expect anyone ever anywhere to treat me differently. If I am unpleasant and disruptive I deserve to be treated just like any other editor.  If I get sick because someone is calling a spade a spade then it's time for me to take a long wiki break.  Please do not use health issues as a reason for anything here.  I take responsibility for my own behavior and my own health, no one else does.  Thanks, -- Crohnie Gal  Talk  12:13, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ultimately it doesn't matter why someone is disruptive. If they're consistently disruptive, fail to improve, don't listen to other editors despite many chances and many blocks, is it appropriate to say "it's not their fault, feel free to keep it up, here's a barnstar for trying?"  Disruptive is disruptive, irrespective of cause, and if a POV is too strong to work with other editors then the usual outcome is a topic ban.  WLU (t) (c) (rules -  simple rules) 17:09, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, the consensus outside the small group of advocates is not that CFS is a biological disease. The consensus is that it is a disorder with no known aetiology.  That is what we have to reflect, and using Wikipedia to fix the real-world "problem" that most sources do not identify CFS as a conventional disease at this time, is a violation of policy.  Just like Pcarbonn and his advocacy of cold fusion, and many other related topics.  We all know that Wikipedia is the number one most important place for activists to put their point across, and we know that they wear down those who support the mainstream view because the advocates are obsessive and the mainstream editors generally aren't.  And sooner or later we are going to have to find a way to document this, before the article on alien abduction is rewritten from the abductee standpoint.  Because that's the way it's heading. It's more of a surprise to see Guido stooping to accuse everyone else of being in the pay of the "psychosomatic Mafia", though; he's normally a civil POV-pusher. I guess the young-earth creationists think we're a creationist Mafia, but the fact is that if you are an obsessive on one wing of a subject you have to think long and hard where the true midpoint is.  Guido has lost sight of this.  Guy (Help!) 22:49, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * WLU has stated above that "Virtually all admins that have tried to help Guido have eventually turned away", and then quotes from my talk page and Guido's responses to my replies. I can confirm that I did try to help Guido, and it seems to have resulted in abject failure, for which I apologise. There was another response that Guido made as well (concerning a little matter that has been taking up a lot of my time recently), but that is neither here nor there, as I knew it was part and parcel of getting involved the way I did. The point I want to make here is that I somehow missed the post Guido made to his user page until recently, and was rather shocked by it. As WLU rightly notes, I had already been rebuffed by Guido and I was already stepping away from this, and Guido's post to his user page has only confirmed that for me. Some people say I give people too many chances, but I do have a breaking point and it has been reached in this case. I'm not going to support any block (as I think Guido's post is effectively a "departure essay"), but if he returns then the "breaching experiment" considerations would come into play and I wouldn't be able to defend Guido in any shape or form simply because there is no way of knowing whether or not he is starting another "experiment". If anyone feels that there is a danger of Guido conducting similar experiments in future with this or other accounts, and that this would be disruptive, a community ban may be needed. Carcharoth (talk) 02:16, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Apparent vandalism only account
Tru5balla appears to be a low intensity vandalism only account. Made a bunch of vandalism edits over a day or two in october, got template warned at the time, then returned today and made this [] edit to the pedophilia article. I'd support an indef block this point, but leave the decision to do something or nothing to the wise.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:56, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Have requested oversight for the offending edit. -- Rodhull andemu  18:10, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks.Bali ultimate (talk) 18:29, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There's WP:AIV too for things like this, just so you know. &eta;oian  &Dagger;orever &eta;ew &Dagger;rontiers  01:12, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Editing of Comments on Talk Page
User:Arcayne continues to edit and alter my comments on Talk:Gordon Ramsay. The first one was to remove my bolding of policy here, my restoration and link to policy on editing other comments here, the reverting here, readdition, revert, and damage caused by editing my comments. I request assistance as my comments are within guidelines and editing them is against wp:Talk_page_guidelines. Knowledgeum : Talk  21:38, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Ugh. Arcayne has been talked to before, multiple times, about his refactoring of others' comments to fit his agenda and his sensibilities. He knows better. block him for it. ThuranX (talk) 21:44, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello. Ah yes, Thuran X's comment - hello pot, meet kettle from volcano. Please. Respectfully, is there any ANI discussion about me you won't involve yourself in? You don't like me, I get it. We don't edit anywhere together. Might you be persuaded to address the log in your eye before complaining about the splinter in mine? Do you actually even read any of the background of the ANIs you post in, or just assume I am the bad guy? Jeez, ThuranX; maybe even avoid contributing years-old resentment and stop posting your ire? It's getting old.
 * Now, that unpleasantness aside, the complaint addressed by Knowlegeum has a little bit to it. I did in fact remove bold-text from his/her post of a paragraph-long post from RS or BLP; I figured they might be new, and unaware that bold text is like shouting (and said as much in my edit summary). However, I think I was correct to move the comments, as they were inserted within discussion threads that orphaned my responses, rendering them useless. I did not change the text, intent or content of the posts; I only moved them into their chronological order. Am I wrong to do so? - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  22:22, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi there fellas! It seems as if this may just be a simple misunderstanding.  It appears as if Arcayne was just trying to format the talk page in a more readable manner, and may have inadvertently removed some of Knowledgeum's comments.  I think it's best if we leave posts in Article talk pages "unformatted"; that is, we should leave them how the original user posted them.  Using bold text does not automatically equate to "shouting" either; it may simply just be a way to highlight the important part of one's post, and can be a useful tool in doing so.  If you guys get together on your respective user talk pages or on the article talk pages, I'm sure you'll be able to clear this up, as it really does appear to be nothing but a good-faith simple misunderstanding   gaillimh  Conas tá tú? 22:38, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Bolding amounts to shouting in this case; quoting large sections from policy is inappropriate - thats what we have links for. But edit warring over it is wrong, on both sides William M. Connolley (talk) 22:40, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Gaillimh and WMC, thanks for your input. You are both right; I should have headed to the user's talk space to ask them to move their comment into chronological order. Had I done that, the newer user might have been inclined to also listen to my comments regarding the usage of bold text for emphasis, and not just automatically revert. I just didn't want my own comments orphaned by the insertion of Knowledgeum's later post. In retrospect it appears (aside from ThuranX' inappropriate commentary) that this was a good faith mistake. I'll link up again with the user, and see if we can reboot the interaction. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  22:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good! Thanks a lot for your willingness to work with the other fellow on this issue!  Cheers   gaillimh  Conas tá tú? 23:00, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I've never had a big beef with moving an entire comment to allow the conversation to flow better. Bstone (talk) 23:09, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all for your comments and insight, Arcayne and I have managed to reconnect and I believe we have worked through the dispute with common understanding, I believe the issue to be fully resolved. Knowledgeum : Talk  23:18, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Seramagi
just added highly unsavoury content to the infobox of the Magibon article, as well as the unsourced real name of the subject of the article. The history of the article is rife with socks and slander (see the most recent AfD). I gave the editor an only warning but perhaps A'd a little to much GF. Eyes and banhammer-readiness requested. Skomorokh 15:39, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It looks like it was a throw-away single-purpose account. Based on the large number of reverted edits, the lack of discussion on talk page , and shooing away warnings , WP:DUCK seems to apply. The troll that initiated the AfD exhibited similar behavior (first added insulting statements to the infobox). Pcap ping  10:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, this recent prodding from an IP user seems eerily familiar. Pcap ping  10:30, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Sporcu
This user was blocked indefinitely for vandalising Azerbaijan-related pages, specifically for redirecting them under non-appropriate headings. He made dozens of edits starting November 24. Please revert these pages back, as it is time-consuming for a user to revert them manually. Thank you in advance. Parishan (talk) 00:58, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, that was annoying. ✅ Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 04:53, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

AIV?
Just to let you know, there are some requests at AIV that have been sitting there for 10-20 minutes with no response, including one IP who is being very active right now and has vandalized 6 or 7 times since he was reported. &mdash;Politizer talk / contribs 09:36, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Ncmvocalist Incivilty
some one please helpme here

User:Ncmvocalist is adding sock template to my page without proof - 59.96.45.41 (talk) 10:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks like this the IP sock of.

See also Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive496 -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 10:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

The Pee Wee Herman is God Users/Socks
A user, who has several socks under "Pee Wee Herman is God", and then a Roman numeral, has repeatedly returned and vandalised. I ask for an account-creation removal in order to stop him. So far, he is at number four five six, and counting. Cheers. Sincerely,  Im per a t § r (Talk) 00:23, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The target article Pee Wee Herman has been semi-protected. Whether that will prevent further disruption or just deflect it remains to be seen.  S HEFFIELD S TEEL TALK 01:32, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Relevant request at WP:RFCU/IP. – Luna Santin  (talk) 04:15, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * He appears to have cooled down at number seven after a few blocks, warnings, and acts of vandalism/personal attack. Would it be possible to ban the create-name of Pee Wee is God VIII, Pee Wee is God XI, et cetera? Cheers.  Im per a t § r (Talk) 14:18, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

vandalism against Israel
Unfortunately, the page is semi-protected, which gives the vandal the right to edit and prevents me from correcting. The last correct version seems to be 23:55, 4 December 2008 Flatterworld. Oyp (talk) 12:53, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The vandalism was reverted shortly after. If you are still seeing the vandalism, click here to purge the page. ➨ ❝ ЯEDVERS ❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 12:58, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Couldnt think where to put this so ...
My concern regards Henry VIII and the common misconception that he was married six times. However, according to the book of general ignorance, when asked "How many wives did Henry VIII have" they have to say:


 * We make it two. Or four, if your a Catholic. Henry's fourth marriage to Anne of Cleves was annulled. This is very different from divorce. Legally, it means the marriage never took place. There were two grounds for the annulment. Anne and Henry never consummated their marriage; that is, they never had intercourse. Refusal or inability to consummate is still grounds for an annulment today. In addition, Anne was already betrothed to Francis I, Duke of Lorraine when she married Henry. At that time, the formal act of betrothal was a legal bar to marrying someone else. All parties agreed no legal marriage had taken place. So that leaves five. The Pope declared Henry's second marriage to Anne Boleyn was illegal, because the king was still married to his first wife, Catherine of Aragon. Henry, as head of the new Church of England, declared in turn that his first marriage was invalid on the legal ground that a man could not sleep with his brothers widow. The King cited the Old Testament, which he claimed as 'God's law', whether the Pope liked it or not. Depending on whether you believe the pope or the king that brings it down to either three or four marriages. Henry anulled his marriage to Anne Boleyn just before he had her executed for adultery. This was somewhat illogical: if the marriage had never existed, Anne could hardly be accused of betraying it. He did the same with his fifth wife, Catherine Howard. All the evidence suggests she unfaithful to him before and during their marriage. This time, Henry passed a special act making it treasonable for a queen to commit adultery. Once again, he also had the marriage. So that makes four annulments, and only two incontestably legal marriages.

I have referred to the relevant talk page but nobody appears to be taking me seriously so I thought I'd come here and ask for guidance. One person said that it would confuse people letting them know that he only had 2 or 4 wives, however as wiki is an encyclopedia I thought the truth was more important. Evidently the people who work on the article disagree --Thanks, Hadseys 02:24, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I've got a question. He married (verb) six times, right? He was only legally married (noun) twice though. D ARTH P ANDA duel 02:36, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * This may not be a good thing to have in the body text (in full), but it seems like a perfect candidate for explanatory notes. Protonk (talk) 03:08, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know how to do that could somebody help --Thanks, Hadseys 03:30, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * sure thing. Firs things first, make sure that you rewrite this aside in a less meandering fashion.  Present it factually and clearly.  Make sure that sourcing (specific to Henry VIII) exists and can be cited on this exact subject.  Then you can follow the instructions in the link I gave you above.  You make a separate section for the explanatory notes (distinct from the references), place a named references tag below <references group="your name here" /> then tag your "note" in a manner similar to how you would tag a normal reference: .  If you are worried about messing it up, try it out on a sandbox or your userpage first. Protonk (talk) 04:03, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, and in the future questions like this can go to the Help desk. They should be able to answer them pretty well. Protonk (talk) 05:20, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Henry married 6 times and used whatever means he could think of to shed 5 of them. The 6th outlived him. Using that one author's opinion as to whether he was actually married 6 times or not, could be worth a sentence or two, but Henry did exactly what he wanted. Maybe we should also cite Richard Armour or Will Cuppy, whichever it was, who pointed out that while Henry had a couple of his wives executed, he let the others live, because "it was the age of chivalry, when knighthood was in flower." Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:36, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Couldnt think where to put this Talk:Henry_VIII_of_England, perhaps? Deltwalrus (talk) 17:43, 5 December 2008 (UTC) *Gulp*, missed the bit about that above. Deltwalrus (talk) 17:44, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism and violation of WP:USERNAME
Vandal and violation of WP:UN. Dr.K. (logos) 14:58, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Blocked. In the future, you can report these incidents to Usernames for Administrator Attention. Ioeth (talk contribs friendly) 15:06, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I should have known. Wrong department. Thank you very much Ioeth for your very swift action. Take care. Dr.K. (logos) 15:10, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Strange talk page behaviour
At Talk:Army correspondence course program there's some very odd things being said about censorship and claims that the text from the article will be disseminated throughout Wikipedia to avoid deletion (that's a new one for me, I gotta say). It has the faint whiff of sockpuppetry about it (or the meat variety at the least), but I don't wish to accuse anybody of anything on such flimsy evidence. Might need some looking into. Ta. --Closedmouth (talk) 15:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * SOCK, SOAP, DISRUPT, WP:MYUNIQUESPECIALSNOWFLAKETHOUGHTSMUSTBEHEARD. RBI. // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #355E3B;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#355E3B;">  16:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think some one or group of people are very worried about that being deleted and have resorted to making very odd claims. It's odd though because I believe that article would stand a strong chance of surviving an AfD were it nominated.  Try providing an explanation to them on the page that shows how making wild claims doesn't really help anything in this context, and better time could be spent improving the article, and they shouldn't be so worried about any sort of censorship crusade.  If they continue it may warrant another look. --Banime (talk) 16:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It looks like they are in the army and have been tasked to create a page on it? --Cameron Scott (talk) 17:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't make that sort of assumption, there's a lot of things it could be.--Banime (talk) 17:17, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This looks a lot like a behavioral case regarding claiming ownership of articles, not assuming good faith, and what I call "activist delusion" on top of what may be COI and disruption. I also think this article meets standards for inclusion here, so AFD wouldn't help anything at all. MuZemike  ( talk ) 17:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Ugh
and and. Obviously the same IP, but, as each one has less than 4, they can't be blocked. As I don't think it's enough to post for a WP:RFCU, I posted it here instead. Cheers.  Im per a t § r (Talk) 17:23, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I've semi-protected the article for 3 days - the IPs are all in a school district ( Washtenaw ISD, 208.38.184.0 - 191.255 range ). We could schoolblock the whole IP range, but that might be excessive given the relatively limited focused damage.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 17:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Revisiting Srkris
Following up from Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive496, it now appears that Srkris is evading their block anonymously:



That last IP in particular made a fair number of edits before I blocked it (they're currently requesting unblocking, all comments welcome). Regardless of whether this is Srkris, it seems worth a few eyes. Bringing this up for community attention and review, as needed. – Luna Santin  (talk) 10:36, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And a direct link to the thread directly above too ... ►  BMW  ◄  10:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It is very evident from the contribs that it is, see also above, for a report by the IP sock -- <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000"> Tinu  <em style="font-family:Kristen ITC;color:#ff0000">Cherian  - 10:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Guess who's back with a renewed DHCP lease...
 * -Kgasso (talk) 10:42, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And blocked. Ncmvocalist (talk) 11:03, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ncm ... I'm not sure if you blocked him (didn't take the time to check) but I'd personally recommend you stay away from actions against the socks of Srkris at the moment, seeing as you're a very involved editor ... it starts to look too much like a crusade, and we all know they don't end well.  ►  BMW  ◄  11:54, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Luna got him. ➨ ❝ ЯEDVERS ❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 11:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Luna got him. ➨ ❝ ЯEDVERS ❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 11:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I really wonder why you guys saying i'm sock of "Srkris"...who is he?? i didn't harm anyone here, did i?? i just made a small comment here is this wrong??? how can one judge I'm sock of someone??? is doing comment itself wrong??? or please do announce in wiki mainpage as "IP's shouldn't comment in anywhere in wikipedia" so that in future other ip's will don't face this kind of strange problem. i am toooooo much depressed.

one final request if you all very much sure, why cant you CHECKUSER me???? it is an ultimate solution. - 59.92.174.78 (talk) 13:33, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Howard? Daffy? Donald? // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #614051;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#614051;">  13:36, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Launchpad? Webby? Mrs Beakley? // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #801818;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#801818;">  15:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

This is Srkris, I merely wanted to record here that I have no need or intention to evade any blocks. You can do a checkuser on this IP as well as the other IP who is accused of being my sock above. I have only edited my talk page after I have been blocked, apart from this message here now. 122.164.25.108 (talk) 19:16, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Now that is the most humourous, misguided, and obvious attempt at a good old magicians trick. "I'm not going to fall for no banana in the tailpipe"  ►  BMW  ◄  19:26, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

To me its quite obvious someone is trying to get me banned once and for all by pretending to be me, and all these conspiracy theories are seeming to take me there. 122.164.25.108 (talk) 19:32, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I do think it's important to bear that possibility in mind, but even after running a few checks, I have no other plausible suspects, which throws a bit of a monkey wrench into that idea. Any suggestions? – Luna Santin  (talk) 20:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Ban
I think this is quite straightforward and there's no reason to accept any unblock request. His block in 2006 was increased due to sockpuppetry - he clearly is not receptive to community feedback, whether it's back then, or now, or any time in the near future. I believe there is sufficient evidence to justify a ban (and a significant increase in the duration of the block). Ncmvocalist (talk) 11:03, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

false accusations against me
I have been accused of being a vandal and a sockpuppeteer by users here, and it has happened behind my back without informing me! I am deeply disturbed by this! Some innocent edits all done in good faith by me have been adressed as vandalism by Fran - such as removing inappriotately added templates on statements already covered in an articles givensources. Jouke  Bersma   Contributions  11:48, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We'll need to see some diff's where these activities occurred please. ►  BMW  ◄  11:51, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry to tell you but I am not very much familiar with that. I have been here for almost two months now, I guess, and longer as an IP but merely as a reader of articles at first. I haven't got much knowledge on how to give a diff. (and my english is far from perfect) Jouke   Bersma   Contributions  11:54, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * As a minimum, can you at least tell us the exact name of the articles (with the   around them) so we can view the history.  ►  BMW  ◄  11:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Help:Diff. ➨ ❝ ЯEDVERS ❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 11:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Chang and Eng Bunker, Touch the Clouds. Oh, and these are the editors they tried to link me to: Requests for checkuser/Case/Kermanshahi. (i tried to answer here quicker but I got a editing conflict twice). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jouke Bersma (talk • contribs) 12:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I keep getting in "editing conflict"... Jouke   Bersma   Contributions  12:03, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

The accusations of vandalism are made here. The RfCU is Requests for checkuser/Case/Kermanshahi. Fram (talk) 12:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I already told them and gave them the link, Fram. Jouke   Bersma   Contributions  12:06, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Quack, quack. // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #36454F;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#36454F;">  12:11, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If these accusations are false, please explain the following: Where did you get this piece of information from? And, why did you remove this request for a citation with a false edit summary? ➨ ❝ ЯEDVERS ❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 12:12, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As I said, the citation request was pointless because as i said: I read the sources to the article and saw that it was mentioned in the article - the request was inappropriate. And about Andre van Duin - if they can say he is married to a man without referencing, I thought I could just aswell say he is married to a women - they did not give references in the first place! Jouke   Bersma   Contributions  12:18, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * So why did you use a false edit summary? And why did you think it was acceptable to add completely made-up stuff about a living person just because the truth was not cited to your standards? And why did you make this change? ➨ ❝ ЯEDVERS ❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 12:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

The thing is, I thought that what I did would not be seen in the first place... I just wondered how long some small changes (false) would take to be detected. Now I know, no fun in it. Won't happen again I can assure you. But then the false edit summary was not done on purpose - I alsways use edit summaries and when I click on the box to put one in there is a list of previously used edit summaries by me. I picked the wrong one and that was not something I did on purpose. These are small mistakes, no reason at all for Fram to give me a "Final warning", this user was overreacting! Jouke  Bersma   Contributions  12:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Whoa whoa whoa there! You admit that you introduced INVALID information into an article because you didn't think it would be seen in the first place???  *sniff sniff*  I smell Vandalism...Disruption??  ►  BMW  ◄  12:37, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And this change? ➨ ❝ ЯEDVERS ❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 12:28, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I thought that a "alternative page" meant that it was freely editable. I was just expirimenting, seeing how it would look. Jouke  Bersma   Contributions  12:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Right. So none of these allegations are false. They're all true - you have been making unconstructive edits, inserting false information and generally causing problems in several places and you've admitted to it. So Fram's warning to you - that you'd been rumbled and should stop - was entirely justified. And in the light of that, the request to see if you are actually another editor in disguise seems entirely reasonable. I would've done the same. ➨ ❝ ЯEDVERS ❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 12:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's probably worth mentioning that this is pretty much the same MO as Last king of Frisia - hence the CU. - Bilby (talk) 12:42, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone. Looking back at Jouke's contributions, the editor was quite proud of deleting the article Sheikh Mohiuddin Ahmed as a hoax ([]). However, he is repeatedly shown and named here and is explicitly named as their chairman here on their homepage: so is this webpage is a hoax as well? Oh, and this page is probably in on it as well. He may or may not be notable enough (I presume he is, but that we can't search the Bangladeshi sources adequately), but it is not a hoax, as a simple search indicates. Another mistake? Or more vandalism? Fram (talk) 12:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Looking further into this deleted "hoax", it listed a book he had written: surprise, the book is available through Amazon. Still not evidence of notability, but definitely not a hoax... Fram (talk) 13:01, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It was speedied for A7 on the back of JB's AfD for being a hoax. Personally, I wouldn't've speedied it as leader of a political party with representation is an assertion of notability. But hoax it certainly wasn't. I'll ask the deleting admin to review. ➨ ❝ ЯEDVERS ❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 13:06, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I raised this at the time, which is part of why I've been watching the editor. However, while not a hoax, it was nevertheless somewhat questionable, and based on the lack of usable, it seemed to me that to restore the article (which was deleted in good faith) would be to stand on process. This may well have been a bad call on my part, but I've since found nothing to suggest any notability for the subject, even after researching his party. A review wouldn't hurt, though. - Bilby (talk) 13:18, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (Plus it can always just go to AfD). - Bilby (talk) 13:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, considering that he used that AfD to then nominate Liberal Party Bangladesh for deletion (the article still exists, luckily), and to remove mention of it from e.g. List of political parties in Bangladesh and here (both edits still to be undone), his actions did have a serious effect. Fram (talk) 13:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Mgm, who deleted Sheikh Mohiuddin Ahmed, will review the deletion when they have more time. They've requested input from any Bangladeshi editors/admins who may be able to help. ➨ ❝ ЯEDVERS ❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 13:48, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * By that stage I was aware of the problem, and Soman and I both demonstrated that Liberal Party Bangladesh wasn't a hoax. I've reverted the two edits you mentioned - thanks. :) - Bilby (talk) 13:52, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Mgm has said they're happy for Sheikh Mohiuddin Ahmed to be undeleted, so I have. People are welcome to add the sources Fram mentions to the article. ➨ ❝ ЯEDVERS ❞ a sweet and tender hooligan 14:09, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll do what I can with it - I don't think I've got enough to show notability, but it's worth a shot, and I probably should have argued more originally. Hindsight is a fine thing. :) - Bilby (talk) 14:21, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Not my intention to blame either you or Mgm, you were both assuming good faith, and the person may indeed not be notable. It is just that the subject of this section rather vehemently claimed it was a hoax, and that a lengthy Google search according to him or her yielded nothing, which is patently false. I am not going to block Jouke, as being to involved by now, but will someone else do it now or do we wait for the CU? Fram (talk) 14:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's a good idea, barring any CU evidence. At the time I did extensive checking on the subject before deleting and when I checked, the sources now provided were not found. - Mgm|(talk) 16:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it would be quite appropriate to block immediately, for deliberately editing with the intention of disrupting Wikipedia as admitted earlier on the thread & to prevent more of the same. The length, though, might well depend on CU results. DGG (talk) 17:26, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Jouke, you say you have been accused of being a vandal and a sockpuppet. Indeed, some of your edits have been vandalism, whether you intended them to be vandalism or not. Please read Vandalism and never make edits like that again. As for the accusations of you being a sockpuppet, don't stress over it. Soon enough an editor with CheckUser powers will compare your edits and your IPs with other usernames involved in the User:Kermanshahi incidents, and if no evidence is discovered, you'll be absolved. We take Wikipedia very seriously. Please take it seriously too. No more vandalism, ok? Kingturtle (talk) 19:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring at The List (South Park)
An edit war has erupted at The List (South Park). User:2008Olympian has uploaded a series of character images which were removed from List of students at South Park Elementary for violating our guideline on the use of such images in list articles. He subsequently added a section regarding these characters to the one episode they appeared in, The List (South Park). This was removed and the user was informed] about proper practices regarding writing about fiction. He warned the editor he is engaged in an edit war with, and was warned back by the same editor. The revert war continues apace. See article history. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This belongs at WP:AN3, no? // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #465945;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#465945;">  17:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Strictly speaking, that hasn't been violated. There are also fair use violation considerations at play. Thus why I posted here. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:40, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I meant this; forgot name had changed. // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #355E3B;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#355E3B;">  17:44, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I removed all the fair-use violations and left a note. The orphaned images will be deleted in due course. It's up to the user whether they take heed of the note, of course.  For now, this is resolved, I think. <b style="color:black;">Black Kite</b> 21:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Ireland page moves

 * 1) More than a week ago, several different polls were opened on Ireland (disambiguation), Ireland and Republic of Ireland, and another at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(Ireland-related_articles)/Ireland_disambiguation_task_force. A veritable mess. The issue is a recurring one. Proponents wanted Republic of Ireland to be at Ireland (state) or a variation . Some of the proponents exhibit an Irish republican POV, which holds that Ireland being qualified by "Republic of" undermines its credibility as the only legitimate government in Ireland. Though support for the move was broader than this, it could therefore be taken into the orbit of Requests_for_arbitration/The_Troubles.
 * 2) Today, these polls were closed by [congratulations for his bravery!].
 * 3) Later today, reverted the move of Republic of Ireland to Ireland (state) (Ireland (island), which was salted by the new dab page Ireland )
 * 4) Even later today, copy-pasted Republic of Ireland into Ireland (state) (a redirect at that occasion), and vice-versa
 * 5)  reverted the copy and paste move

This could well be a big drama fest, but no heads have to roll just yet and no passions need be inflamed. To put it mildly, it is probably unlikely that review of this move close will lead to agreement that the moves had consensus, but in fairness the poll at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(Ireland-related_articles)/Ireland_disambiguation_task_force is more strongly in favour of the move than the article pages. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 20:03, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * is currently working on this. Please lets wait for him to comment before adding yet more voices to the cacophony. Rockpock  e  t  20:09, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that there's a separate thread open at AN. This needs exactly one cook to prevent broth spoilage. Oh, and "could well be a big drama fest" passed a long time ago. Essentially anything related to the word "Ireland" needs to be handled with care. — Gavia immer (talk) 20:19, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Anyone want to be the brave person to decide whether AN or ANI is the right place for this and so unify discussion? -- Narson ~  Talk  • 20:36, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Done it already. AN/I is really the appropriate place anyway. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 20:38, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * My response is User talk:Tariqabjotu. No further comment at this point. --  tariq abjotu  20:46, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Unable to comment at User talk:Tariqabjotu as the page is locked for IP's, but it strikes me that Tariqabjotu decision to keep his move is based on his opinion on the matter rather than consensus or the mountains of discussion that has taken place on the matter (much of which cited alternative reasons based on policy for keeping things as they were). --89.101.221.42 (talk) 20:51, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I will also add that it has a ring of making a faulty decision in good faith then justifying it retrospectively. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 20:57, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it's based on the consensus that you all clearly can't decide. Hence, disambiguation. --  tariq abjotu  21:01, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There was no consensus to move Ireland -> Ireland (island), so you moved Ireland -> Ireland (island)? You are clearly operating on a wholly different level, Tariqabjotu. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 21:52, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I can't say I'm very impressed with admin revert warring each other over a page move and then using protection powers to make their version stick. Whatever happened to Bold Revert Discuss? The admin closed and was bold in applying local consensus elsewhere onto a page, and was reverted. Shouldn't he then have engaged in discussion at the local where the dispute was? -- Narson ~  Talk  • 20:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC)  (edit conflict)
 * Administrator Tariqabjotu's conduct is in good faith. He's done no wrong. GoodDay (talk) 20:57, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, and when I say "then justifying it retrospectively" - I mean only that that kind of decision-making is fault prone. I don't meant any implication of bad faith on the part of Tariqabjotu, just one mistaken decision followed by a fault-prone one. Wheel warring is not pretty though. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 21:03, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * And in good faith I criticise the process he decided to use. I think applying local consensus to other locals is most definatly wrong GD. Even RM points you towards the talk page of an article for moves rather than gaining the consensus on the RM page. -- Narson ~  Talk  • 21:04, 30 November 2008 (UTC) (ec)
 * My move wasn't part of the Bold-Revert-Discuss cycle. It was based on an analysis of a move request discussion. Even with the evidence I missed initially, I am staying with my position, for reasons I explained in my response. The editor reverted the result of a move discussion – that's out of process. If (s)he disagrees with the discussion, this type of forum is the appropriate place to go. --  tariq abjotu  21:01, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm still looking for that move discussion at Talk:Ireland (state)... Srnec (talk) 21:05, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It was discussed as recently as September. The decision was to NOT MOVE the page. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 21:12, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * There was no move discussion as I would view it, there was a small clique discussing this in a remote location. Can WP:F1 now conduct move requests on its talk page? Certainly consensus can be developed on those pages, but it must always go back to the talk page of the article in question to achieve consensus among all editors. By taking this behind doors, so to speak, we disenfranchise casual editors and IP editors who are unlikely to delve that many layers beyond the article talk page. -- Narson ~  Talk  • 21:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Is a clique like a cabal, but with disparate people in it? I would be happy with that. It has taken a stern will to battle at times. I set up the WP:IDTF taskforce on Ireland (being WP:bold), and boy the diffs I could show of the same-face aggressive opposition to it! But sense survived the AfD, and sense will service this. Wikipedia is a work in progress, and you simply cannot stop progress forever. --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:04, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no desire to stop progress, Matt. However, I do not view the method you used to be progress. I know it was an attempt to avoid the fight that have dogged the pages for years, but I don't think that small groups deciding consensus away from the pages is the answer. Especially when such a well thought out solution had been reached. You skipped a step that validates the decision you reached. -- Narson ~  Talk  • 00:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Tariqabjotu, would you be willing to expand a little on what you meant when you wrote, "Now, I'm done... you are welcome to open a WP:AN or WP:ANI post, but I'm sticking with this position regardless." Do you think that such a statement could be interpreted as meaning that you are unwilling to discuss mistakes you may have made in haste? Do you think that this is a constructive statement to make on an issue that you know to be contentious? --89.101.221.42 (talk) 21:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "Do you think that such a statement could be interpreted as meaning that you are unwilling to discuss mistakes you may have made in haste?" Yes, it might be interpreted as that. Either way, in my response, I addressed the mistake many people pointed out. I explained why I think, despite that, this is still the best solution. You all are trying to drag me into this debate; I'm not falling for it. This is your debate; I am just here to look at the evidence and decide whether a move is warranted. I did that, so my job is done. You are free to launch an appeal. You are free to continue to bicker about this -- but without me. I have stated my position -- and that's it. Me repeating my reasoning interminably is unproductive. You repeating yours interminably is unproductive.
 * "Do you think that this is a constructive statement to make on an issue that you know to be contentious?" Yes. --  tariq abjotu  21:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You say this is "our debate" and that we are trying to "drag you into it" but that you won't "fall for it" - yet your final decision was based on your opinion, not ours. Can you reconcile this contradiction?
 * (Incidentally, while not asking you for your opinion on it or on the issue itself, here was my contribution to this round of polling on the requested move, simply as an FYI. I think that there is more to policy on articles moves to consider than you give credit for in your response. Many of these were discussed in the pages and archives that you ignored.) --89.101.221.42 (talk) 21:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You seem to acknowledge there are differing cases for each of the moves on your talk page. I'd suggest the solution is, at the very least, reverting Ireland (State) to Republic of Ireland and engaging for a local discussion on that page. Though as some people suggest this likely needs mediation or arbitration, I do think out of process move procedures do need to be reversed before such things can occur so as not to present a fait accompli. Though, I do hope that if a move procedure is begun on the talk page that a convincing consensus is reached. -- Narson ~  Talk  • 22:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * As a noninvolved party, I applaud Tariqabjotu for taking on an contentious issue and making a decision. No matter the decision, someone was going to be unhappy. Moving to a disambiguation, given the confusion that clearly exists, was only proper (if in doubt, disambiguate). Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:39, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That was only half the move though. As Tariq himself says, there was no need to disambiguate RoI. There are also the issues to do with the process which wa pretty obviously a bit unorthodox. -- Narson ~  Talk  • 22:47, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

⬅ Appeal it and let it go to Arbcom, its bound to end up there anyway and the two factions will never reach agreement. It needs some objectivity. -- Snowded  TALK  22:40, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Or someone could file a RM on the RoI page and present a good argument, as been done elsewhere, and so acctually try to build consensus? It may end up at ArbCom if people continue to believe this assbackwards method of remote page moves is acctually valid, but lets give it a chance to acctually do it properly. Revert the move, put up a RM. -- Narson ~  Talk  • 10:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The name of the state is Ireland, and I wanted primary use for the Ireland article to go to the sovereign state of Ireland, but unfortunately that did not happen. I strongly disagree with Narson. PurpleA (talk) 11:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Over what? You think this was a totally proper way to perform a move? -- Narson ~  Talk  • 12:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

An RfC on the recent multi-page move has been opened at Talk:Ireland. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 12:00, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Compliments to Tariq for trying to sort this out. His solution must be the right one, becuase neither side is happy about it. IT looks like the best solution to me, removing either 'right' answer with one that gives access to the new reader to choose which 'Ireland' they are asking about. For the record, the 89.101 IP which is so abusive to Tariq (Above asking if he's stopped beating his wife yet) is from Ireland, and thus an obvious and plain POV pusher. ThuranX (talk) 12:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but I cannot help replying to your remarks above. Many of the editors involved in this dispute are actually British, some like yourself are from Scotland. It would not be very civil of me to say that because you're from Scotland you are a POV-pusher. I think you should withdraw your last remarks. PurpleA (talk) 12:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) "For the record, the 89.101 IP ... is from Ireland, and thus an obvious and plain POV pusher." Thus? Gosh. Racism. Nice. At least you're good enough to put it on the record. --89.101.221.42 (talk) 12:59, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Alright, let's try this: The IP who refuses to register is from Ireland, which explains why he's such a loud POV Pusher. How's that? I haven't associated you with one view or another, and your own agitation makes it plain you're pushing a POV. As for the Brits and Scots involved, they're all POV pushers as well, here for nationalistic, jingoistic reasons, and not arguing on logical principles, but for political and emotional ones, as are the Irish POV pushers. I further note that neither of you addressed the substance of my post, which is that since no one's happy, he did the right thing. I'll assume that's because you know I'm right. I'm also interested in why the IP wont' register. Sock? Banned User? Someone with a Real Life conflict of interests here? ThuranX (talk) 21:28, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * So basically we're all POV pushers. Looks like AGF went out the window. --Cameron* 21:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I must say I am very disappointed by these moves, especially as it was retrospectively justified. I saw quite a discussion going on on the what is now Ireland (island) article that was well and truly ignored. In my eyes, this was not a case of being bold, but rather an abuse of administrative powers, in an attempt to get this thing over with. <b style="color:green; font-family:Verdana;">TheChrisD</b> Rants • Edits 13:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The articles have been moved and protected despite consensus tending toward keeping the status quo. Bearing this in mind, we now need neutral admins to help us move forward. We are at your mercy! :) Please help! --Cameron* 15:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

With every respect to the admin involved, and remaining concious that I do not want to stray from "comment on actions, not editor", I am also more than a little dismayed by the manner in which this change occurred. Per Cameron and TheChrisD, it looks to me like the admin (in good faith) only wandered in to one part of a complex discussion, failed to notice that the issue was WAY more complex than the simple "straw poll" he happened to read, and took premature action as a result. Per TheChrisD, these actions were then retro-actively justified. It seems to me that, in the course of making these changes: Beyond the issues involved in the manner in which the move itself occured, I have serious reservations about the result. The new naming scheme addresses one of the issues raised by the taskforce, but does not represent a complete solution in terms of COMMONNAME (parens suffix have no standing in common use), DAB (Ireland (state) is not a clear label), ease of use (every single derived link will need a pipe), etc. At the VERY least, the "Ireland (state)" article should be moved back to "Republic of Ireland". Until a more complete set of guidelines can be agreed around when/where/how to use and link. Guliolopez (talk) 16:01, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Due consideration was not given to the points raised in other areas of the discussion page (namely that the task force remit was to confirm a set of guidelines around "how to refer to the 2 Irelands within articles". And was NOT just about article names. As such, a move in the absence of a guideline change was premature)
 * Not enough time was taken to familiarise himself/herself with the issues involved before acting (Admin appears to have arrived on the taskforce project page - after several weeks of absence from the project - took a look at just ONE discussion (in a page with 5 or more open discussions), and acting based on inferred "consensus". Where no consensus existed.)
 * Not enough notice was given to the parties involved in the task force before making the changes. (In fact, I can see no notice of intent of any kind. The least I would have expected was a one liner that said: "OK, looks like CON to me, here's what I'm going to do...")
 * Cannot agree to that alone. All articles must be moved back to what was the status quo only two days ago. My contention is that "Ireland" was a primary article. Only an article in that format could give the 9,000 years of history in Ireland, and it was universally accepted, contrary to what some editors have said, by almost all. Please return all the articles to what they were two days ago. Thank you. PurpleA (talk) 16:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We cannot return all the articles because per WP:COMMONNAME "Ireland" must be a dab page, as for example "America" is. The closing Admin made what is a vital first step in making Ireland-related articles adhere to normal Wiki policies and conventions. The most damning example of the mess current and past editors have made in this area is that they have achieved a situation where the province of Northern Ireland is defined as a country on Wiki while the most common meaning of the word "Ireland" in modern usage, the country with the capital city Dublin, cannot be described as a country in its title article. This was an excellent, courageous and long-overdue application of WP:NPOV in this area. Sarah777 (talk) 21:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * btw, by my count this is now the tenth  forum actively discussing this issue. It seems that the first thing anyone who thinks that there is forum-shopping  going on does is to start the argument in a new place. Sarah777 (talk) 21:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

This 'multiple conversations in multiple locations' behavior is a serious problem. Centralized discussions help, fractured ones do not. By maintaining multiple conversations, the combatants in this, and other disagreements, effectively insulate themselves from outside adjudications. These conversations often start as Forks or forum shopping by a side which is currently losing. Because each side in turn loses ground, each side starts up the argument anew in new places, seeking more consensus for their side. They then justify their decision and consensus in whatever way they can - 'More people weighed in here, thus a bigger consensus', 'This group is specialized in this area and know it better than you', 'This was actually the right place to do this', 'this editor/admin has more authority to decide this', and so on. Each justification 'trumps' the other side in the combatants' minds. When an admin steps in they can point to the other discussions and say, you need to read this one, or that one, or many others, intimidating admins into not messing with it, or into reversing decisions. Each side can suddenly point to the other side for this effect as well: "You ignored these arguments we used on their fork to counter this idea or that one of yours..." and so it goes.

We had an admin come in on a large one of these fractured parts, evaluate it, and BOLDly solve it. He sliced the Gordian knot, halved the baby, and so on. Now the sword he swung is being hoist high over his head. The simple fact is that years of dancing and dodging on this are over, and both sides are angry they didn't get their way, and that the fight is over. These are two separate issues, and both need to be mentioned here. One, Neither side got its way. The article Ireland is now a disambig, not about the Island nor the Political entity, and both sides are incensed that their article didn't get the coveted place. Second,both sides see this argument as an extension of their political leanings, and to have this forum for their grievances removed feels like a personal insult to them. This, they need to man up, hold their sack, and get over (Women too). Tariqabjuto did something truly impressive here, and the community and admins should be backing him. Again I appluad his work here ,and hope for more of the same. ThuranX (talk) 21:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree 100%. My original position here was that Ireland meant, first and foremost, my country (aka RoI). After years of futile polls and argument I came to appreciate that there must be a compromise position. While I would still maintain the the average reader means the the sovereign country of Ireland when they search or use the term "Ireland" I have nonetheless come to realise that there will never be consensus around that solution:


 * (1) Because Unionists in NI and people in Britain feel that calling the State simply "Ireland" implies that NI isn't on the island of Ireland in some sense or that it represents a nationalist claim on NI
 * (2) Because nationalist Irish editors feel that applying the term to the 26 county sovereign state excludes nationalists from six counties from being as "Irish" as someone from Kerry and/or that it surrenders the idea of a politically United Ireland.
 * The victim in all of this is (a) WP:COMMONNAME, because "Ireland" is the near universally used and recognised term for the Southern state and (b) WP:NPOV because this fact is ignored or set aside for purely political reasons. (And also, some editors who have fought this move for 8 years have a vast amount of personal emotion wrapped up in maintaining the POV versions of the articles).
 * In the light of all this Ireland as a dab is, frankly, the only solution, though it is painful to both sides as the various arguments show. After this, much follow-up work is required, with doubtless much more debate. But, for now, the boil has finally been lanced; a prerequisite for healing to start. Sarah777 (talk) 22:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Since when did we get invaded by stereotypes? Could it not be that you oppose use of RoI because...you are Sarah and you, as an individual, chose to oppose it having made a decision based on your view of policy and guidelines? There are plenty of Brits on what is supposed to be the 'nationalist' side and Irish on the 'Unionist' side that perhaps we might have to accept we arn't dealing with stereotypes but fellow editors who are perfectly capable of coming to a rationale opinion based on policy and that we don't need admin to cut the 'Gordian knot' of consensus. I admire the taskforce for what they were doing, I just regret they let their patience fail at the last moment in welcoming this fait accompli -- Narson  ~  Talk  • 22:21, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I wish you were part of the taskforce Narson- I've never seen you comment so much since over the last day! I do thing you are making too big a drama out of this, when so seldom dipping into it before. the admin merely made a per-policy decision anyone could have done - and nobody was 'robbed' of an ROI poll. Many 'opposers' to change were admitting that keeping the name 'Republic of Ireland' wasn't really the central issue - and we were all focusing on Ireland, where the real problem was. I know you've had half an eye on things - but I wonder if you know how much has been covered? I'm happy with what I see as a natural progression here, even if it wasn't the route I expected. The "Mixed Ireland" status-quo bunch have had their chance to progress their own often-hidden preferences (and some of them did have them), and believe me, they stonewalled and they block-voted to breaking point. --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:18, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Should I retort that you arn't making a big enough drama out of it? :) TBH last I saw of the taskforce it had stagnated. The RoI/Ireland (State) page remained on my watchlist from...god knows when I last contributed there. I am amazed at what you guys managed to achieve and hell, as I've said, the /result/ is likely what I would want. However the process? Meh. This was a cock up. and I realise it is no-one fault really. A mistake was made. However, the actions after that mistake are just trying to perpetuate the cock up. There needs to be a solution that is /just/. For something to be just, process must be followed. Then the issue can be buried. Until then, you just leave an open wound, for lack of a better term. I truly admire what you have achieved in forging a compromise with Sarah and how much she has worked to compromise with you. It is just in the haste to act a lot of the good in that process was negated. -- Narson ~  Talk  • 23:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

This is absurd
Two big points: Therefore I urge the reversal of the moves and the opening of a new straw poll, advertised throughout the community noticeboards, in which this debate can be carried out fairly and equitably.--Hemlock Martinis (talk) 22:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) There was no need to change the status quo. The Republic of Ireland/Northern Ireland/Ireland compromise matched our other treatments of geographic areas with multiple governments (i.e., People's Republic of China/Republic of China/China/Taiwan). You're never going to make everybody happy with stuff like this, but it was a stable and accepted solution by the vast majority of the community.
 * 2) The debate took place in a small corner of the projectspace, with little input from the community at large. This may perhaps be the most obscure corner of the encyclopedia to hold a discussion on a move as major as this. Re-arranging our Ireland article names forces the renaming of the entire categorization structure (a long and tedious process in and of itself) and the renaming of hundreds of subsidiary articles, as well as dozens of templates related to European and European Union topics. This is a huge huge debate. Rather than being held in the article talkpage (where it had been shot down back in September), it was shuffled off to a distant hidden corner of the WikiProject Ireland project space. When the discussion took place there, it became a hivemind scenario. While I have no doubt as to the good faith of many of the editors, Tariqabjotu included, this is unreasonable and unfair to the community. While I certainly sympathize with the need to provide for an orderly debate, this was a bit overboard and ultimately (and unintentionally) disenfranchising.


 * On point two sir, I doff my cap. You put my point eloquently. It is the process that appears to have gone awry here, despite I am sure good intentions. -- Narson ~  Talk  • 22:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * For an American administrator to write all that, clearly without researching anything!! I don't like the emotive language, and talk of "hivemind" either. I have not been part on an 'obscure corner' of anything thank you very much. Read WP:IDTF and do not risk offending decent people who have given their spare time to work for a better encyclopedia. I've spoken to several admin now who have voiced regret with the status who (from top dogs to lesser known ones), but who have said it is too difficult/dramatic/unapealling/etc/etc for them to try themselves to change so is best kept/worked on if possible. The 2-state forking issue simply grew out of hand in the end. I'm not having all the hard work, the article locks, endless debate and dramas etc 'glossed over' by an ingnorant bold-text intrusion like this. Really - I mean it. People have done nothing but work - and people on all sides accepted there should be some kind of change in the end. Thousands of messed-up meanings of Ireland in articles have now been put right. Ireland was never my own argument originally, but it stopped me from editing Wikpedia, and I am kind enough to do as much of the tidying-up work as I can. --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That is starting to get a bit own-ish Matt. -- Narson ~  Talk  • 23:15, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't be so pedantic - I'm simply speaking my mind. We all share Wikipedia. --Matt Lewis (talk) 04:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We do all share one which is why the impression you are giving of ownership seems so bizzare. And certainly edits like this don't make it very easy to work with you. -- Narson ~  Talk  • 15:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I wrote it neither as an American nor as an administrator. I have nothing but good faith that you've been working hard towards solving this dispute, I merely take issue with the manner in which you carried it out. This discussion has widespread effects and implications and should not be left to a workgroup to hammer out in isolation. If you are confident that your conclusions as to what should happen with the Ireland articles are valid, then they should be subjected to the community as a whole for approval. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 23:18, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well it's a bit better after reading that, but I think the community thing can be a bit of an ideal, or even a myth. The RM at Ireland advertised on the main Countries wikiproject, and all the country articles and wikiprojects involved, including the UK article and project. The admin who polled it went to an admin page requesting neutral help before-hand - none came (people run a mile, we've tried before). What do you suggest? I personally suggested Arbcom to look over it, but it didn't happen - as people were just tired of the debates and the stonewalling, and it could have meant a labourious and tedious re-start - so the taksforce broke its 'bond' under the stress, and a 'half approach' RM was placed at Ireland instead. This (island/state) approach Tariqabjatu has moved on was recently straw-polled at the well-advertised WP:IDTF taskforce to a broadly 50/50 result (it possibly had the edge, and at least one who would have gone for it held their vote). Yes it would have been great to get an even wider audience than the few new people that poll pulled in - but this is Wikipedia, and sometimes it's a smaller room than people admit.--Matt Lewis (talk) 04:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

In response to point one by Hemlock Martinis: Clearly there was a need, as evidenced by the ridiculous amount of discussion on this matter. If that's not call for a serious action on this matter, then there will never be, and we are condemned to a permanent war here about which Ireland we can call Ireland. Irony. Instead, we can all accept that no side won this war, and move on. Irony again. ThuranX (talk) 02:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Every step is a step towards stability.. I really believe that, and it;s kept me sane too. --Matt Lewis (talk) 04:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * So, to rephrase that, a small group of editors who are willing to keep complaining and never shut up will always get their way? Even when it results in the absurdities I point out below? I don't think that's how we do things. Angus McLellan (Talk) 02:36, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not a small number. It's an ongoing problem. Consensus can be revisited. Edit warring is bad. And on and on and on. There are plenty of good reasons to change to what we have now, and plenty of problems, fights, arguments and attacks on what we had. I don't understand why peace is so hard for Ireland. In all forms. ThuranX (talk) 03:02, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You should get your facts right Hemlock. It was not shuffled off to an obscure place, the discussion was notified.  The discussion has gone on from a long time and the subject had been new, then on several occasions Ireland (state) would have replaced Republic of Ireland.  Consensus was used to prevent change not to reach agreement.  Republic of Ireland is incorrect for reasons previously outlined.  If you don't know the politics then you need to research it a bit more.   To suggest that a small number of editors are complaining (angus) and this is the only reason for the change is a nonsense.  There are several small groups of complaining editors on both sides, including several who are throwing their rattles out of their prams here.  There have also been a large number of editors who work on other sites than Ireland with some knowledge of history who are disturbed by the perpetuation of language which is now longer used and was specifically excluded by the Good Friday Agreement.  What this needs is not the sort of "we find this inconvenient" and inaccurate position you adopted above, but a few serious admins to actually look at the facts and reach a conclusion which can be enforced.  That means researching the facts before commenting by the way.  -- Snowded   TALK  03:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There was no need to change the status quo. I very much concur with Hemlock Martinis on this one. Much of the argument of those favouring Tariqabjotu's moves is based on the assumption that the presence of talk page discussion, controversy, a taskforce, and continuous polling pointed to the necessity of a move. It didn't not. It merely showed, as Angus pointed out already, that a minority of editors did not like the status quo. That's fine, and they have every right to challenge it through the appropriate channels. The problem with making moves based on the taskforce was that some of us (i.e. me) did not participate there because we believed (apparently falsely) that it would not have any direct effect on page locations: that, we thought, would be decided, per usual, by move proposals launched at the articles' talk pages and announced at WP:RM. Srnec (talk) 04:28, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * In other words you avoided all discussion, and simply kept your block vote in a drawer. This cynicism is exactly what has been avoided. You had a chance to help forge the change, but you wouldn't play. And your use of "we" speaks volumes in my eyes - I've got very close to this, and I've known well the score.--Matt Lewis (talk) 05:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If the taskforce had come forward with a consensus proposal... who knows? Maybe I'd have supported it. You have no idea what cynicism is. By using "we" I include other editors who feel as I do. We both know who they are. Srnec (talk) 05:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The notifaction was pretty weak too, at least on the former RoI page. There was a move proposal in...August? September?....and then a message two days before the move. 2 days? Really? THat is an appropiate tme for such a controversial move? -- Narson ~  Talk  • 07:19, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

It's worse than that Jim ...
Regardless of whether the move was correctly closed or not, and I say not, the current situation is entirely unacceptable. There are now > 25000 links (mainspace only) to a disambiguation page. The status quo is positively harmful. Perhaps some uninvolved administrator could remove the need for these 25000+ pointless edits and just put Ireland (island) back to Ireland? Thanks Angus McLellan (Talk) 02:06, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

If proof were needed that this is not even wrong, here are the page view stats from October: So, instead of having the primary name for the most viewed article, and one of the 500 most viewed in October, we have a disambiguation page there that nobody ever read. Angus McLellan (Talk) 02:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ireland (disambiguation) 1455 views, unranked
 * Republic of Ireland 131156 views, ranked 1877
 * Ireland 302792 views, ranked 467.
 * Even more proof as to why the decision above was ill-conceived. We should revert it back to before the moves and continue the discussion from there. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 03:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Read bold below: --Matt Lewis (talk) 05:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to believe they should probably be moved back now. Angus' arguments are strong, plus it's quite obvious that such a drastic change needs more legitimacy and credibility to stick. If the community actually does want these changes - and various users have to do lots of work to reorganize everything if this is the case - then there is nothing wrong with "confirming" this, and if it doesn't, then we should see that too. This should probably happen quite soon now, as time has already cleared the issues up. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 03:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Angus has a huge stake in this - please don't fall for what he is trying to do (ie make Ireland (island) a second country page again - it would be a disaster). --Matt Lewis (talk) 05:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Meh. --  tariq abjotu  04:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Copied from tariqabjotu's Talk re Angus' bot suggestion:

'''In no way have a bot change all the Ireland links into Ireland (island) - the majority of Ireland links refer to the country, NOT the island (and this can be proven). This fact is one of the main arguments for changing the status quo: Ireland (per common-name usage) has been habitually used instead of Republic of Ireland to mean the contemporary or the historical Irish state. A bot sending them all to the new island article is an absolute nightmare scenario! The idea with the approach Tariqabjotu moved on is that they all now sensibly go to the new Ireland disam page.''' --Matt Lewis (talk) 05:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Seriously - we have a workable situation now, and you all could ruin it by doing this crazy 'bot' move. I don't even want to think about the consequences of it, but it will all start all over again (probably trying to make Ireland the main country article). We CANNOT have two state articles, and this move will instantly make Ireland (island) one again (as it was as Ireland), and the last 2 days editing work will start to reversed in an way I don't even want to think about. We MUST acknowledge why people wanted this change!!!!--Matt Lewis (talk) 05:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * We had a workable situation before. If you had a problem with content at Ireland you should have just edited it. Most people didn't want this change. Srnec (talk) 05:43, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "We MUST acknowledge why people wanted this change!!!!" Lets acknowledge it then. A small group of persistent POV pushers have been trying for a long time to get Republic of Ireland moved to Ireland, and the island article moved elsewhere because they object to the term ROI because it was created by the British. The move request at ROI failed multiple times, meaning they had to come up with another solution to remove the primacy of the island article. No doubt in a few months we will see a request to get Ireland (state) moved over to Ireland now that the island article has moved. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  10:13, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * A significant group of editors objected to the use of the term ROI for a range of reasons including the fact that the two governments concerned had agreed to no longer use it. At various times there has been a majority in favour of the change, but a minority used 'consensus' to prevent change.  Some of that group wanted to use Ireland (to confirm with other wiki use) but in various debates agreed to compromise to Ireland (state).  Of course it is very easy to see the mote in someone else's eye while not seeing the log in your own.  -- Snowded   TALK  10:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If you could be bothered to look at the taskforce where most of us 'opened up' to a degree, nearly all af us agreed that 'ROI' was a red herring (though some don't like it, and some like me are neutral, nobody loves it) - deep down this was always about Ireland the island, and the complex ways people see it. And having two forking (time sharing, even) 'country' articles HAD to stop. And for many, it was about the disambiguation mess surrounding it all - though some are happy with that side effect of course. You have had a clear stake in this in the past, number57 - and your accusations of others you are repeating verbatim are simply open to yourself. You are behind the times, and are fighting an old war here - Ireland the island is widely known to be the central issue now, and you can't kid anyone with the creeky "small group of persistent POV pushers" line any more.--Matt Lewis (talk) 11:30, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "You have had a clear stake in this in the past" - I wouldn't say that commenting on a couple of debates since the nonsense at Flag of the Republic of Ireland in mid/late October and !voting on one of the many past RMs back in August - is a clear stake in the past, especially when compared to the fact that some of the editors have been involved in move requests dating back to early 2007 or even 2006. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  11:54, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Pages moved back
I took the bold liberty of returning the pages back to their stable locations, as enough time for deliberation has passed considering the nature of the affair. Administrator opinion as expressed is that the moves didn't have consensus, and its effects are disruptive. As RfCs etc are proceeding, and as tens of thousands of links are currently misplaced, further discussion and firm consensus for future moves should take place from the status quo ante. PS, I left the redirects to the bot, but if there is anything else now wonky because of the moves that I can fix, please let me know. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 16:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Allow me to be the first to object to your bold liberty. Evidently it is time to take this to Arbcom. -- Evertype·✆ 16:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Good work - sanity has returned (at least temporarily). Lets hope this doesn't turn into a wheel war like Burma/Myanmar did though... пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  16:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What? Straight to arbcom? A move could be undertaken locally on the pages to move them, in the proper fashion, to this proposed set of names. Or on one of the pages providing notification is posted on the other pages making it clear what is going on. It was last tried in september? Might be worth having annother go, see where consensus is. -- Narson ~  Talk  • 16:54, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Narson. Let's not get over excited and go to ArbCom! How about trying an RM first? --Cameron* 17:37, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I would have to recuse having commented on the request, but I would think the arbitrators would be unlikely to take this case. Sam Blacketer (talk) 17:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Arbcom? Is that just a last desperate attempt to move them or what? Leave them as it is, there was little or no consensus to move in the first place, and moving was disruptive. Djegan (talk) 18:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

One thing you could do Deacon is see the section below on Matt's innappropriate refactoring of Talk:Ireland (now Talk:Ireland (disambiguation). If anybody is to have a chance at understanding the events of the last couple of days, especially in light of this latest move, that page needs to be restored to its correct timeline, and I don't want a block for doing so. MickMacNee (talk) 16:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC) Self strike, no longer relevant. MickMacNee (talk) 19:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * What Deacon has done while this "unifying" debate was in progress is simple vandalism. The "Admins" cited in this thread as "justification" have (bar Hemlock) been deeply involved on the side of maintaining the version that is counter to WP:COMMOMNAME, have voted in the polls - to cite their POV as "neutral is bizarre. (As is the notion that Deacon is neutral). Now the same crew who have imposed a pov-ridden set of "solutions" on Ireland article titles are citing the fact that they supressed all attempts to fix the problem as a reason to maintain the pov! (The links issue). This cannot stand. Ireland, like America, is and must be a dab page. Sarah777 (talk) 20:43, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Deacon's action was an exercise in thumbing one's nose at the community, and the ARBCom proceeding should carefully consider whether or not his should lose his buttons for his admin wheel warring behaviors. We had a stable solution in which neither side got their way, neither side was happy, but in which all parties know, like it or not ,that readers will find their way to the right article for each reader. Now we're back to agenda pushing POV debates and demands. Wonderful, we can start all over again. ThuranX (talk) 00:14, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)This is a request for the Deacon to please name the 3 uninvolved admins he says agreed to reverse the move. I note that to date, he has not done so. From where I'm looking, this is another example of admin abuse, plain and simple, by an involved admin/editor. To use the Deacon's own logic, there was no consensus to move the articles back to their original controversial pages either! For example, take a look at the reaction and clear consensus to overturn a page move involving the abusive move "Flag of Ireland" to "Flag of the Republic of Ireland". --HighKing (talk) 01:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Deacon moving the articles back to the status quo of three days ago. But that doesn't mean that it cannot be discussed further in a rational manner. Ireland is a primary topic, and should never be a disambiguation page. PurpleA (talk) 01:55, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I am an uninvolved admin, and I agree with Deacon's bold actions.  AK Radecki <sup style="color:#62BB32;">Speaketh  05:17, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The admin involved indicates he doesn't care about the articles being moved back....and I note when tariq was bold he was praised, especially by you Thuran. Perhaps we should extend the same good faith to both admin? There is an arbcom application in and then if that fails I imagine a fresh RM will begin. There is no need to call for blood. -- Narson ~  Talk  • 10:13, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If the admin involved you are referring to is Deacon, then I find it a stretch that he claims he doesn't care about the pages, and yet he's registered his !vote against the initial move. --HighKing (talk) 19:21, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I mean Tariq. He says he doesn't care that his move was reverted. -- Narson ~  Talk  • 19:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Narson, there's a difference between Boldness and wheel warring, and you know it. apples and oranges don't stuff that strawman well. ThuranX (talk) 03:09, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it takes more than one revert of another admin's actions to get a wheel war going. Especially when the original admin has stated he is happy for other admin to undo his tool-based move. Not only does 'one admin revert is a wheel war' promote WP:DRAMA, it also seems to imbue our admin with infallibility. Last I checked, not even Jimbo has been made Pope (Though I'm sure to some he very well may be. At least some kind of Cardinal or other such bird.) -- Narson ~  Talk  • 23:32, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Still waiting...probably taking you a while to count all those admins up I suppose... --HighKing (talk) 19:21, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Arbitration requested
For the record, Everytype has intiated an arbitration request. See here. MickMacNee (talk) 20:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * *gasp* what a surprise... Viridae Talk 23:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Tavix
Many editors have tried to reason with this user – – for almost a year, about his incessant editwarring pagemoves that are consistently against the naming conventions, especially WP:NCP. His talk page (or its history - he has a habit of deleting, not archiving, his talk page, so it may take some doing to see all of it) illustrates the problem well enough, and the last (as of this writing) item at the end of my own also touches on the issue. The user has been warned many times with uw-series templates or customized equivalents, and in simple non-uw personal messages, about this issue. He just will not stop making excessively disambiguatory and reader-confusing page moves. Cf. WP:DAB and WP:NCP: Disambiguated article names should use the least specific/nitpicky level of disambiguatory detail as possible, and for people should describe the person ("chemist") not the field/area/subject associated with the person ("chemistry"). Tavix has openly declared that he will not stop unless he is "banned". I say, "be careful what you wish for". See also Tavix's statement at User talk:Tavix: "I like being controversial myself and have a good time with it." This is all a fun game to him. And see also below that talk page post, WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL warnings.

I also have to point out that Tavix is using his userpage to push particularly aggressive religious messages, in contravention of WP:USERPAGE, WP:NOT and WP:NOT.

While the user has made constructive edits, including creation of useful articles (arguably; I have my doubts about at least one of them, on "missing" parts of the Bible), I very strongly suspect that this PoV-pushing article-moves behavior will resume not long after the block is lifted, given the user's editing pattern, hostility, and self-declared, self-important and self-righteous recalcitrance with regard to this matter.

I also find it disturbing that a user this new (about 1 year) spends so much time at AfD, all the while pushing a particular religious point of view in both userpage and articlespace (specifically, in favor of the idea that the Bible has been censored and is Truth). A review of his last 1000 edits shows little activity other than a) arguing at AfD, b) nominating and tagging things for AfD, and c) arguing with people on their talk pages about AfD stuff, as well as, of course, d) moving pages en masse inappropriately with very few execeptions. Not very contributory I would suggest perhaps the opposite: Yes, WP needs to be cleaned up here and there on a regular basis, but a total focus on ridding the encyclopedia of things one disagrees with and pushing an agenda of renaming articles to suit personal preferences instead of site-wide agreed-upon conventions is maybe not exactly productive or helpful to the community.

NB: I have already notified Tavix about this ANI report.

—  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 13:42, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Can we have a link to the said consensus of the page naming conventions on football players? seicer  &#x007C;  talk  &#x007C;  contribs  15:54, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * WP:NCP and WP:DAB, already cited. Article disambiguation is, overall, a general matter, not a specific one. While a handful of WikiProjects have argued quasi-successfully for exceptions, such a debate about football hasn't taken place, and all of the issues surrounding both over-disambiguation and user-confusing disambiguators, at both talk pages, applies as much to footballers as it does to cars, musicians, butterflies, or anything else. The gist is, there's been a consensus for years (operational, but unclearly specified until a few months ago) to use disambiguatory article names like Jane Smith (chemist) or Juan Sanchez (politician) – identificatory of the person, not the field of endeavor – not Jane Smith (chemistry) or Juan Sanchez (politics), much less Jane Smith (applied organic chemistry in Australia) or Juan Sanchez (California Republican politics), and to not get more specifically-labeling of article subjects (POV danger!) than what is minimally required to successfully disambiguate. At least 13 people have asked User:Tavix to stop ignoring these conventions, and he has stated flatly that he will not until he is banned, yet does not engage either guideline's talk page with any rationale for why he thinks the conventions should change.  Textbook disruptive editing and point-making at the expense of collaboration. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 20:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, but I don't think there is any consensus on any of these things. When I started moving the football articles, I was following the example of many other sport related dabs. Go to any hockey player's article and you will see John Smith (ice hockey) and not John Smith (hockey player). This is the same thing, I don't see why it is such a controversy for football, when it wasn't/isn't for hockey. The offical name of the sport is "American football" as football refers to "Association football" or "Soccer" in America. I would also like to point out in WP:QUALIFIER, third paragraph, second sentence, it says the following: "However, this can sometimes lead to awkward or overly-long disambiguations, in which case a shorter but still clear term should be used (baseball, not baseball player and coach)." Since "American football player" is an overly-long disambiguation, why not shorten it up to "American football" like they did with the hockey articles.
 * I would also like to defend myself on your misrepresentation of one of my quotes: "I like being controversial myself and have a good time with it." I said this as this is the main reason I am on Wikipedia. I usually don't like doing research, but would still like to contribute to the project, so normally I patrol already existent articles and hit some of them up for deletion. Its what I have fun doing. Most things are non-controversial, but if there is a good argument, I'll like to get involved it in. I feel I had enough policy to go ahead and make the moves, so you warning against me before there is a strong consensus against it is wrong. Please remember that these are good faith moves and I'm not out to destroy Wikipedia.
 * One more thing, do not bring religion into this. This is about football, not about my religion. I honestly think you are trying to find everything "wrong" I did on this site in the last year or so and present it to get me banned. Please have a better sense than that. Tavix (talk) 22:16, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I did not ask that you be banned, only possibly temporarily blocked; I'm not sure you are clear on the difference. Your entire editing history here is an open record. I don't have to look very hard to find "wrong" things. You have consistently, willfully and unrepentantly ticked off over a dozen editors with your disruptive moves, and I cannot find in your page history a single voice in your defense in that regard. Don't you think that's a little curious? That you are also abusing your user page to push aggressive (to some, probably downright scary) religious messages and arguably pushing a religion point of view in articlespace is simply further evidence of your self-righteousness. It doesn't have anything to do with digging for dirt to make you look bad, it's just part of an identifiable problem editing pattern. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 08:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Tavix has openly declared that he will not stop unless he is 'banned'". Not necessarily true... Note that if you ban me, that would first require an open consensus that it is (football player) and not (American football) and that hasn't happened yet, so all of my edits are perfectly legal. Also, if we can somehow get a consensus for that (although I don't think that will happen), I will gladly stop as I do not want to violate a direct consensus, and therefore stop without being banned. Tavix (talk) 01:01, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course it has already happened. It's called WP:NCP. Legality has nothing to do with any of this. An no one but you has been talking about banning. That's a completely different process, and just a pattern of making bad page moves isn't sufficient to trigger it. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 08:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The consensus is the general dab rules already quoted and explained ad nauseum to you. It's not the same as hockey, which was worked out into a separate consensus, because you are adding American to football and deleting player which is nonsensical. There is no reason to further disambiguate football when there is no other person of the same name best known for playing football and it is harmful when so many players routinely move between different codes of football, including American, Canadian, Arena, and Australian. There is no need for a special rule for football; the general dab rules work perfectly well. And, it's not just football player dab moves, there are numerous other moves only partly illustrated by the warnings and requests to stop all over User talk:Tavix and attitude summarised by SMcCandlish above. Moving the football player dabs annoys me. The attitude concerns me. Double Blue  (talk) 01:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "It's not the same as hockey, which was worked out into a separate consensus," where might that consensus be? All I'm saying is there is no consensus to have it at (football player). When I started moving moving the articles back in September, there was about 60-70% of the articles that had (American football), and since that was the majority, I decided I would go ahead and move the rest, a little at a time, to keep with consistency. These are good faith edits and I will stop if there is a consensus that tells me otherwise. That highly general "dab rule" has an exception to it, which I see that you know because you quoted it, that gives me consent to make that change. There is no direct consensus otherwise. I see no reason why all this needs to go on. Why must you constantly beat me around for trying to create consistency within Wikipedia? If you would just have left me alone with it, I bet I could have moved on to other projects by now, and both DoubleBlue and SMcCandlish could have further advanced Wikipedia instead of arguing about such a petty thing as such. This has gone on for, what, 3 months now? I'm just trying to be consistant with the dabs, and trying to get me to stop with my goal seems pretty strange to me. About how I choose to say "American", "Canadian", "Arena", ect. is just look at their professional careers and whichever one they played the longest would most easily fit as the correct dab, primarily because Eagle Day (Canadian and American football) seems way too long to be sensible, and secondly because they are notable for their professional careers, and if they played longer in one sport, it would make sense that they would be more notable in that sport (unless there are reliable sources that state otherwise) . Tavix (talk) 01:42, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Before launching into a rant like this and declaring that there is no consensus, you should probably do some basic homework, like actually reading the talk page and archives at WT:NCP, in which the hockey and baseball projects made an allegedly strong case for an exception to the people naming conventions, due to the supposedly disproportionately large number of players who become coaches or sportscasters or otherwise have multiple roles within those two respective sports. The quasi-consensus for even that level of exception is shaky, as virtually no one weighed in other than members of those two projects.  Yes, there are some other inconsistencies in the application to date of disambiguated bio article names; this is not a reason to make that situation worse.


 * The broader issue here is that the controlling precedent is WP:DAB, of which WP:NCP's material regarding disambiguation is only a clarification. WP:DAB is really very clear that we do not excessively disambiguate; i.e., we do not use "(American football)" or "(linebacker)", as examples, without a need to disambiguate between two players of football of different sorts, or two players of different positions in American football, respectively, who have the same name. Eagle Day (football player) is the proper article title, and the present location of the article; WP:DAB and WP:NCP would not tolerate something as grotesque as Eagle Day (Canadian and American football), so that is a red herring.


 * No one really cares why you did what you did when you did; the vast majority of comments relating to page moves (of any kind; this is not just about sports articles) have been over a dozen other editors asking you to stop moving pages around, because you clearly do not understand the naming conventions or disambiguation guidelines. This is not about DoubleBlue and SMcCandlish picking on poor little Tavix, it's about your recalcitrance and unwillingness to engage in discussion and work toward compromise. Your pattern is to ignore move-related (and much other) criticism, and then delete it from your talk page as if it never happened.


 * From what I can tell so far, you have participated in precisely zero discussions at WT:DAB and WT:NCP, nor participated in any relevant discussion at WT:SPORTS or other project pages where topical article disambiguation issues might arise. "Trying to get me to stop with my goal" is really the key phrase here. There is no consensus for your goal. There is massive site-wide buy-in with regard to WP:DAB and WP:NCP, and you are ignoring them in a highly WP:POINTy manner. "I see no reason why all this needs to go on" – neither does anyone else, so the obvious solution is for you to stop being disruptive and confrontational, and instead edit collaboratively, please. A long-term pattern of edits that are self-importantly against consensus and which ignore attempts to resolve disputes are not good faith edits by any reasonable interpretation of WP:CONSENSUS, WP:AGF, WP:POINT and WP:DE, read together, no matter what you profess.


 * PS: For the record, I have had no dealings of any kind with User:Tavix, that I recall, before being asked by a third party to weigh in on this matter. I have no personal bone of contention here. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 08:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "have been over a dozen other editors asking you to stop moving pages around" No. So far it has been two. Name a dozen please if you can, because you are a terrible exaggerator/liar whatever. If there was a consensus against (American football), then there wouldn't be 70% of football dabs saying (American football). "This is not about DoubleBlue and SMcCandlish picking on poor little Tavix" I'm sorry what? I never said I was poor, thanks for turning my words around. I'm just saying that instead of arguing about things that have no consensus and you would actually be doing something productive instead of starting a flame war with me, Wikipedia might be a slightly better place. " There is no consensus for your goal." Ah, but there is no consensus against it either. Your point fails. "I see no reason why all this needs to go on" – neither does anyone else, so the obvious solution is for you to stop being disruptive and confrontational, and instead edit collaboratively, please." I'm not being disruptive, I'm just the opposite. It is simply a way to be consistent with dabs within the football world. If you are so against it, then move everything to (football player). It really doesn't matter as long as it is consistent. "WP:DAB and WP:NCP would not tolerate something as grotesque as Eagle Day (Canadian and American football), so that is a red herring." And your point being? I'm not arguing with you there, that's why you see it redlinked. See ya, I'm off to save the world... (not really, but it is fun to say...)Tavix (talk) 22:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You should know perfectly well that there have been many, many objections to irregular and against-guideline moves that you have done. An objection to a move is not a big deal when one deals with it amicably and does not repeat mistakes, it is when it is greeted either without response or with disruption, confrontation, and requests to be blocked.
 * Buried in your response here, however, is actually a hopeful sign. Consistency is a good thing and as is discussion of what that should be. I attempted to engage you with discussion when I initially asked you to leave articles at (football player) and would be willing to re-attempt that if the discussion is genuine and civil. Let me know on my talk page. Double Blue  (talk) 23:42, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd be willing to move them to (football player) if there was a consensus, but it would take a long to do so I'd wait until a clear consensus has been made. Tavix (talk) 00:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sigh, consensus is expressed in the dab guidelines. If you cannot agree that there is a consensus, can you at least then agree to not move football player articles? Double Blue  (talk) 00:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Just a general overarching guideline with exceptions... What I'm talking about is a direct consensus toward football related dabs. Tavix (talk) 00:58, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Ottava Rima. Yes, again, yes really.
This is a response to my comments urging Roux to disengage in the above thread. No sooner do I urge Roux to disengage than I get WP:TROLLING behavior from Ottava Rima, taunting that he's escaped two prior community bans. This is, coincidentally, the exact sort of 'he'll do it again' behavior I was discussing above, and shows that OR feels he can go up to the widest boundary over and over, ignoring the warnings given just hours ago. ThuranX (talk) 21:36, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That comment seems more like a harmless joke to me. I'd let it go. Bring it up again if we do end up with a third such discussion. JoshuaZ (talk) 22:43, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hm... Ottava, please remember the discussion we had earlier. Sometimes what you may intended to be a joke is interpreted much differently. While I do not think the intention was malicious, under the current circumstances I can see how it could be interpreted as such. Tiptoety  talk 22:46, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally, I have a hard time interpreting anything with a "haha" and two :P's as malicious... Cosmic Latte (talk) 22:55, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * This is an absurd abuse of process, for which Thuranx ought to be ashamed. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:58, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There's no abuse of process. Fresh off an AN/I thread, Ottava Rima appears to taunt those who supported consequences for his actions with a big fat' nyah nyah, i got away with it'. It's incivil trolling ,and we all know it. This is the place to bring such things. ThuranX (talk) 23:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not taunting. Just being self deprecating. Plus, don't mind Malleus. By the way, I am male. Ottava Rima is poetic, and although poeta is in the first declination, it is masculine. So, don't let that confuse you. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 00:12, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think its a tad odd when ThuranX was one of the people around the last time that a community ban went through and was lifted on my account, and he rooted me on to reforming. I don't know why he wouldn't remember this, but I still have the emails. I tend to remember when people support me. But yeah. Hmm. I'm just a content producer, which makes me a wikidragon. You know how we are hunted, right Malleus? :) Wez should not exist in these parts. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. ThuranX, I think the title is cute. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 23:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Seriously, Ottava, disengage with these types of comments. Your "harmless" comments spilled into something far more yesterday; I don't want to see that happen again. - NuclearWarfare  <sup style="color:green;">contact me <sub style="color:purple;">My work  23:57, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Ottava Rima, I don't believe you have, or can change. That's why I'm supporting blocks and seeking blocks for your obnoxious behaviors. ThuranX (talk) 23:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * As Nuclear points out, there is a certain 'Type of comment' Ottava Rima makes. He was warned recently, and per JoshuaZ no so recently, about this, and continues. JoshuaZ counts this as a third such incident. In baseball, three strikes would be an out. ThuranX (talk) 00:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What can I say? Text makes it impossible to communicate. Ambiguity. Irony. Intonation. All gone. Have a drink. Have some fun. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:12, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And ThuranX, with my experience as a sysop I don't really recall ever having a "three strikes" policy, nor do I remember it being constant at the pedia. As you can tell from my block log, three isn't a magic number, and that much of it is politics. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:15, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Um, I was just using Ottava's count of two prior community ban discussions. I'm assuming that correct. Moreover, that doesn't make these a strike-out. N community ban discussions for large N is not by itself an argument that we should have community ban discussion N+1. JoshuaZ (talk) 00:16, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh gesh, do we need to bring in algebra? Simple fact is that ThuranX believes I have had too many community discussions involving my actions. Simply put, it would make sense that there is a trend. One could say that they were trials and not proof of wrong doing, so could be dismissed, but another could say that they are indicative of a greater behavior. Plus minus, pro con, etc. ThuranX has obviously changed his mind about me since the last time when he originally wanted me banned, then decided that I should stay and reform. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ottava Rima is adapt at pushing the buttons of other editors and has racked up considerable mentions on AN/I. The last time I commented, it was at the beginning of a week-long block of Ottava Rima, who had stirred up endless commentators and talk page postings. Two mentors were appointed, User:Ceoil and User:Karanacs.  I suggested at the time that everyone should just stop commenting. At that time Ottava Rima was getting close to a community ban. Please realize,  Ottava Rima enjoys all this turmoil and stir up. The more people become upset, outraged, whatever, the more enjoyment Ottava Rima gets. Ignoring this editor gets by far the best results. Unless, of course, everyone enjoys all this as much as Ottava Rima does. If so, just continue on.  &mdash; Mattisse  (Talk) 01:16, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Joe The Plumber article talk page
Could someone take a look at the Joe the Plumber talk page. An anonmyous user is continuous trolling the page by posting numerous accusations of the subject being "Turd Gurglar" with specious questions. I think its probably a WP:BLP issue at minimum, but also its a clear attempt at trolling and disruption. The page was semi-protected for a few days which curtained the anons behavior (and the IP is changing), but protection has expired and the anon has resumed his activity. Thanks. Dman727 (talk) 08:14, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I endorse intervention request. Blocking and/or semi pp again. — Becksguy (talk) 08:26, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm watching the page now and gave a note at User_talk:71.35.116.124. Let's see if they act reasonable or would be denied the ability to mess around? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:54, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I've got a response and told him what his options are. The ball's in his court now.  Ping me if he continues.  I'll protect the talk page and everyone can move on.  He'll be bored soon enough of this nonsense. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Alright, maybe I was a little bitey but it seems like he's done. Mark as resolved and move on? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:59, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I doubt this is the last of it, as it has been repeated, so lets wait for a while longer, if that is OK. — Becksguy (talk) 10:43, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Removed the resolved tag. You are right.  Comments like "Editors, especially the prolific one(s) with completely INSANE amounts of time on their hands" should do this and this and make the article the way he wants it here seems to indicate it.  For myself really, I gave another warning before I lock the talk page and we move on.  I'm not sure what the hell his goal is but at least he's being fairly nice about it.  The last guy I dealt with just kept calling me a Holocaust denier a Jimbo, so this is better.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Reinserted. I protected the talk page after this response.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment please
Special:Contributions/81.152.163.34 keeps adding the same website to many pages. I am not sure if this amounts to spam, my guess is that its chances of being spam are about 70%. What do you think? If it is spam, please revert, else, let it be. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 21:43, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * My general rule is that if someone is adding random link below the interwiki links, (a) they aren't even trying to look at the article and (b) no matter if it's spam or not, it's not useful. Reverted and warned.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:35, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

86.40.98.229
- Very abusive; see edit summaries and this. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 21:50, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 31 hour block party. --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 22:42, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

User:JRH95 and also User:EagleScout18
I wonder what to make of a user who has made a grand total of 13 edits to date, nominates himself for admin, then seemingly nominates User:Blanchardb for admin, except again with JRH95 as the subject, if I'm reading it right. JRH95's most recent "work" has been to try to push conspiracy theories on the Barack Obama page. A fine candidate for admin, yes indeedy. A joke of a nomination, but there's something odd going on here, looks to me. Any other opinions? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 03:56, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Doesn't seem too fishy to me, just a confused new user, maybe? &mdash; neuro(talk) 05:25, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe needs a friendly, encouraging gesture of reaching out and showing the ropes around here? Speaking of confused newbies,   is a train wreck waiting to happen, more like a train wreck in progress.  I have no idea how one might respond to this but he has been starting poorly formatted RfCs all over the place, accusing editors of vandalism, etc. - Wikidemon (talk) 05:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Train wreck indeed! You, an experienced user, know better than to remove templates against policy, such as you have done with Barack Obama-related articles, for which you have already been reported. EagleScout18 (talk) 05:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Experienced users also know to have normal discussion on the talk page for awhile. Going the RFC route is premature, to say the least. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 05:54, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The way the editor is digging up dirt on others' edit histories, quoting all kinds of policies (if inaptly and manipulatively), edit warring, etc., looks very troll-like. It's definitely peculiar.  It could just be someone thinking that doing battle is the way to get things done here.  But we may also want to consider the possibility that this is a sockpuppet of someone who knows how to disrupt things.  It's just strange.Wikidemon (talk) 06:16, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Here is a very strange edit. Wikidemon (talk) 06:28, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

And I'm not experienced. Does that mean I don't deserve civility and WP:AGF? I have not violated a single policy, unlike certain experienced users. It is safe to that that reporting me to ANI is beyond premature. It's WP:BITE. EagleScout18 (talk) 06:09, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Stop fighting other editors, please. This is a friendly caution, you are causing a lot of unnecessary disruption.  Technically you are breaking many policies, but practically you are also creating a big mess that others have to clean up.  Instead of attacking other editors for trying to cope, and undoing their efforts, please take the time to figure out how things work around here.  If not you will soon be blocked from editing to give you a chance to learn the rules.  That's not a good way to get started.  If you are interested in Wikipedia and want to have a good productive time here, slow down and chill, please.  Wikidemon (talk) 06:13, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Which policies am I breaking? EagleScout18 (talk) 06:25, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you now have other accounts on Wikipedia, or have you edited Wikipedia using other accounts in the past? Wikidemon (talk) 06:27, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict- reply to EagleScout18's question about breaking policies) WP:DISRUPTION for starters. Take a break, edit an article that is not controversial, and read the several warning messages (and their links) that you removed from your talk page. Including the one from an admin that you removed, the one where your edit summary was "remove vandalism". ~ priyanath talk 06:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

In trying to gain consensus over edit warring, I hardly call that a violation of WP:DISRUPTION. Reverting an unwelcome (non-admin) editor's REPEATED http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:EagleScout18&action=history reversions to my talk page is not a policy violation, which this diff reveals, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:EagleScout18&diff=255559909&oldid=255558766, is a removal of vandalism. That user was warned and the matter thus closed. I see no policy violation. EagleScout18 (talk) 06:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Calling a lawful warning "vandalism" does not make you look very good. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

No, never did I call a "lawful" warning vandalism. And further, no policy violations. A false statement, then. Thank you, EagleScout18 (talk) 06:49, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe "fair" warning would be a better term, but in any case you did it here here  here  and here . Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:55, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Right, where I removed what had been removed before the reverter repeatedly reverted. In other words, vandalism. EagleScout18 (talk) 06:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Back to User:JRH95
The curious nomination by this newbie, of User:Blanchardb to admin, right after nominating himself, has been accepted by User:Blanchardb, who erased my "oppose" comment. I wonder what's up with this: Requests for adminship/Blanchardb Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:49, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Mystery solved (perhaps?). The editor was trying to nominate User:Blanchardb but by forgetting to replace the name in a form template ended up nominating him/herself!  See here.  - Wikidemon (talk) 07:03, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, now I get it. Why would a brand newbie nominate Blanchardb in one of his/her first actions here?  Could be an offwiki buddy of Blanchardb.  That isn't prohibited is it?  Maybe just ask?  Wikidemon (talk) 07:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's what I was wondering. Not prohibited as far as I know. But if you think they're buddies, just check out Blanchard's curiously dismissive comment toward JRH95: Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:09, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

But, re: User:EagleScout18
I accept apologies, cake, party favors, what have you. Thanks in advance. EagleScout18 (talk) 06:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep up your disruptive approach, and you'll have a "block party". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:56, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Hysterical. Not. But apologies, I accept. Thank you in advance, EagleScout18 (talk) 06:57, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Could be a long wait. I'm now convinced that you're a troll, if not also a sock, so in the absence of any new developments, we're done here. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm now convinced you're accustomed to biting newcomers and falsely accusing them of violating policy solely on the basis of disagreement. So, NOW "we're done here," EagleScout18 (talk) 07:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

EagleScout is now labelling anyone who disagrees with him as being "biased": Contentiousness, incivility, attitude... Not at all a promising start for a newbie. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Baseball Bugs, biting newcomers, berating, incivility, bullying? Not a promising future for a non-newbie. EagleScout18 (talk) 07:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Just before calling us "biased", he made minor edits to the articles Bias and Autocracy. Now I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Other shoe: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Psychological_projection&diff=prev&oldid=255593831 EagleScout18 (talk) 07:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, they are improvements so maybe we can see some random acts of constructive trolling. If I say I'm hungry will he do grammar fixes to the article on bacon?  Wikidemon (talk) 08:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Naw. I don't care for pigs. EagleScout18 (talk) 09:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Too funny. Good catch here, you're a good copy editor.  I think I'm done for the night.  10:19, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, there's hope for me yet. 'Night, EagleScout18 (talk) 10:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * This edit fairly much telegraphs the user's viewpoint, which is to push a right-wing agenda. In case there was doubt. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 14:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Hardly. Merely pointing out hypocrisies. EagleScout18 (talk) 19:15, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * EagleScout, please remember not to talk about WP:BITECLUB.  S HEFFIELD S TEEL TALK 16:37, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd rather not. Why do you keep bringing it up? EagleScout18 (talk) 19:15, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Isn't Barack Obama still on probation? I cannot believe this has been allowed to string out so long. If this guy has any further interest in antagonising the situation let's get on and use those rules. Bigbluefish (talk) 17:21, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it interesting that the moment you refer to me as "antagonizing" you antagonize me? EagleScout18 (talk) 19:15, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, brother. Should I use pig latin? He is armlesshay, just ankingyay our ainchay.  Wikidemon (talk) 17:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. EagleScout18 (talk) 19:15, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * No please don't. As a one time Latin scholar, I find the whole concept of "pig-Latin" particularly laughable... – ukexpat (talk) 18:14, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I too. EagleScout18 (talk) 19:15, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Ootay atelay.. ;) // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #00009C;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#00009C;">  editor review 18:16, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Conclusion Agree. A waste of ANI space. EagleScout18 (talk) 19:15, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Not as big a waste as the multiple RFC's were. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 19:20, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Almost as big a waste as sarcastic and banal commentary. EagleScout18 (talk) 19:42, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Take it off ANI.  Little Red Riding Hood  talk  02:26, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I think EagleScout's rude and offensive behavior here is a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Grsz  11  02:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * In defense of what might look like arbitrary silliness, I think Bugs and I decided that EagleScout was trolling here, and were trying to use humor to keep things lively and cheerful - without the power to block, scolding trolls only makes things worse. Plus how often do you get to use pig latin on AN/I (sorry, ukexpat). - Wikidemon (talk) 20:28, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think arbitrary silliness needs defending at all. Up the Very Silly Party, down the sourpuss and killjoy. L0b0t (talk) 20:46, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Unblock appeals
User_talk:EagleScout18 - it seems as though he is saying the the block is unfair/unjustified. -MBK004 21:45, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, his vague response to the simple question of what does he want to do was telling. Frankly, the idea of creating articles "to get a jump start" gets my WP:OR flags up and running.  Seeing one, two and three  attempts to get the exact same non-story into something on Obama is telling.  One month and he already knows how to format RFCs?  Interesting.  I'm going to wait for a second response before deciding.  The exchange above (and at User_talk:Icewedge) are probably the nails though.  Anyone else is free to join in but I'm doubtful he sees the problem. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:32, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Though I probably still don't know how to format content RfCs properly (and have even dorked one up more than once), I don't know that his knowledge of that paints him as a sock. He is pretty infuriatingly disruptive, though. Protonk (talk) 05:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Banime's longterm, admitted vandalism
Banime admitted here that he is attempting to game Wikipedia by producing a few meaningful edits between pieces of subtle vandalism like Podtats, which he created (and admits to here and here). That article is designed to do nothing else except demean and disparage Jarin Udom. User should be blocked as admitted, persistent vandal. TGH1970 (talk) 05:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ? Protonk (talk) 05:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The article is not vandalism per se, and the editor is constantly on IRC talking contstructively, calmly, and correctly too, just to let you know. &mdash; neuro(talk) 05:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Read the original versions and portions of the existing text (like the "units sold" portion of the infobox, for instance) and it becomes clear that this page had only one purpose. If you go and actually read that thread you can see this user comping to all that and more. TGH1970 (talk) 05:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * See also Slowrun, which is (was) an obvious hoax. TGH1970 (talk) 05:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Unless Banime confirms that the user is indeed him, then we can't do anything unless you have some proof. &mdash; neuro(talk) 05:44, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually... hm. &mdash; neuro(talk) 05:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * See also Weedpunk, this post and this edit to the very same article he posted about. TGH1970 (talk) 05:49, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And this post and this edit. These are the same user. TGH1970 (talk) 05:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This user may be User:Dans1120, who was indefblocked for vandalism a little over a year ago, the same time that this account registered. TGH1970 (talk) 05:55, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe. They share no articlespace edits (or any other that I can see).  That's relatively rare for socks or accounts run by the same person, though neither impossible nor unheard of.  That account did work on Zybourne Clock (look at old deleted diffs, if you can), which was added to the SA post and the wikipedia article in the above links. Protonk (talk) 06:44, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (unindent) I agree that the SA account is linked. I will talk to Banime on IRC if nobody catches him first. &mdash; neuro(talk) 05:56, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There's not a whole lot to discuss. He's admitted he's a vandal, that he intends to vandalize further and he's deliberately attempting to game the system so he doesn't get caught. It's pretty open and shut at this point. TGH1970 (talk) 05:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) To an admin seeing this, should rollback be removed from this account. I was the admin to grant Banime's request for it, and based on what I've read above I would remove it, but I've just logged in briefly to check my watchlist before I go to bed (in a minute). Thanks -MBK004 06:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm perplexed by this to say the least. I can't find a justification why he would make the Podtats article or why he would defend it...but I can't accept the premise that he makes "various insignificant content edits" and then subtly vandalizes.  That characterization doesn't appropriately describe his edits who has 500 edits to Frederick III, German Emperor and is shepherding it through FAC.  Also, I'll be in the cold, cold grave before I take something from SA at face value in determining whether to brand an editor as a vandal.  I suggest we move pretty slowly through this. Protonk (talk) 06:27, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Meh, looks more likely.... Protonk (talk) 06:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm convinced. Either someone saw his edits and logged into that account on SA within minutes to post in those threads each time or annefrankfanatic==banime. Protonk (talk) 06:58, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Podtats deleted as a G10. Protonk (talk) 06:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok. I'm going to bed.  In my opinion this isn't an open and shut case.  It looks possible (though very unlikely in my mind) that User:Banime==User:Dans1120.  If that is the case (probably can't be confirmed/denied technically) then it is open and shut.  However it is likely that Banime is just Banime.  He's a wikipedian, or has become one (in the sense that he seems to have adopted the norms and habits of a long term user) but he is probably also "anne frank fanfic" on Something Awful.  This means that he's had a laugh at the expense of wikipedia a few times.  That's disruptive, though not something I'd ratchet up to a block immediately.  Also, (and of more concern), it looks like he created Podtats with the express intent to attack someone (or at least ridicule).  In both the "weedpunk" and "podtats" cases he knew our sourcing policies and feigned ignorance in order to keep the articles going.  Having said this, I really do believe that he likes it here and contributes positively in a manner that far outweighs (assuming we are just making net benefit comparisons) his relatively minor hoaxes.  The right answer is to send a message that we won't put up with this under any circumstances and we are unwilling to just watch him closely to ensure he doesn't do this again (create an elaborate or carefully constructed hoax).  How we want to send that message (or ensure it is received clearly) is a matter for discussion.  I'm not going to block him before I go, but I don't object to a block from another admin (of course).  I'm also not going to remove rollback (I don't see the point). Protonk (talk) 07:33, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * So Weedpunk is a confirmed hoax which Banime created, then defended at AFD? If so, this is a major problem; deliberately inserting nihilartikels is a pretty serious problem, in my view. I'd consider this a basis for a ban, at least unless Banime identifies and removes all remaining problem articles. We should not tolerate people who intentionally attempt to damage the integrity of the encyclopedia, especially with deliberately falsified information. <small style="color:#999;white-space:nowrap"><big style="color:#900">east718 //  talk  //  email  // 08:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Having just gone through the AFD discussion, I want to point out that in that discussion Banime coordinated with a number of his online buddies to have them try and alter the outcome of that discussion with a bunch of anonymous and newly registered accounts. For this user to attempt to save a hoax article with votestacking through meat (and possibly sock) puppetry is grounds for any person to be blocked indefinitely. I agree that some of his contributions are meaningful, but we also have no way of knowing whether all those edits were truly constructive since his credibility has now dropped to nothing. TGH1970 (talk) 10:16, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't want to be rude but the time for advocacy is over. You've made your case (and evidently don't want to give us any perspective on why you would make it).  the evidence you presented is compelling.  We don't need more rhetoric about how to resolve this. Protonk (talk) 20:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm commenting here right now to show you I've read this discussion after neurolysis posted it on my talk page, and I'll be back with a reply to address these points. However, until then, if someone wishes to ban me then I'd ask to hold off until after my current FAC closes, whether successfully or unsuccessfully, as I'd like to be able to respond to the opposes to continue improving the article. I'll be back later with a response. --Banime (talk) 12:42, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Woah, guys, tell me if this has been mentioned before, but something is up. Something is very fishy about the person starting this thread. &mdash; neuro(talk) 20:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (refactored) TGH1970 (talk) 22:23, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't mention it before but I was thinking about it. It is rather fishy to have this account drop by out of the blue to say this about Banime.  that doesn't make the underlying accusation untrue. Protonk (talk) 20:38, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright, the relation here is that I was reading the forums and came across the Podtats thread, where I discovered that anne frank fanfic had created it. Through that I discovered he had created a range of hoaxes and then filed this report. There is no connection to any earlier dispute, just that I came across it on the forums. TGH1970 (talk) 20:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I am pondering whether or not to erase the four posts immediately above, and then mine. Banime has asked for time and promised to be back later with a response. It is just basic common decency to grant him that time and in the meantime leave this thread alone.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 20:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe not erase them, but at least hold off on further replies and speculation. &mdash; neuro(talk) 20:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (refactored) TGH1970 (talk) 22:23, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Stating that they can be redacted because "they amount to a bad faith campaign by Banime to discredit [you]" is utterly ridiculous, since Banime has not posted anything in this thread that is campaigning against you, they merely acknowledged reading through the thread. If you wish to accuse me of something, please say it, don't beat around the bush. &mdash; neuro(talk) 20:57, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (refactored) TGH1970 (talk) 22:23, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:AGF there is absolutely no reason for you to throw around accusations of conspiracy. We looked at your evidence, despite the obvious fact that this was not your first account and that you might have something to gain by presenting information selectively.  If you continue to rail and fulminate about this to otherwise patient and helpful users or make vague threats like "you will have a lot of explaining to do" you will probably be excused from this discussion. Protonk (talk) 21:22, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (outdent) (e/c) For someone that shouts around conspiracy theories of bad faith, you sure do forget to assume good faith. You are really starting to annoy me right now, especially in calling me a meatpuppet (it was blatantly directed at me, don't try to deny it). I am probably not going to respond again until you back off from acting like I am some sort of cross-country sock of Banime. I do not condone what Banime has done, in fact if the allegations are true in whole then I condemn it, but that does not give you the right to address me like you are my mother. Banime has multiple times said that he will not judge me if I disengage and back away from the situation completely, but that does not appeal to me because what I am 'regurgitating' right now is my own opinion, and my own feelings towards the situation, not Banime's - whether our feelings in certain areas are similar or not is irrelevant. I am taken aback by you saying that I "should be careful about the company [I] keep", that is utterly uncalled for and grossly offensive. The editors I choose to converse with are of my choosing and not yours, and don't you forget that. As for having 'some explaining to do', I don't even know what to say it is so ridiculous, and I take it as a threat. This is the last comment you will hear from me on this subject, any subsequent messages will be directly related to the topic at hand, unless I am called upon to do otherwise. Now please desist, and get back on the topic - of which you are a subject too, despite the fact that you are so insistent that you are not. The person submitting the report is liable to scrutiny, especially in such suspicious circumstances as yours, so don't try and divert the fact that it looks extremely odd that a contributor who is making their first edits suddenly comes to AN/I and requests a block - it simply does not happen. Now lets get back on topic, and back to constructive discussion, shall we? Thank you. &mdash; neuro(talk) 21:28, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay I'm back with a response, thanks for your patience. As I looked at who accused me I saw he was pretty new and his contributions were 50% about me, so I thought something was kind of weird, which is why I filed that checkuser. It was declined, however I felt I had good reason to at the time because of the circumstances. Enough about the person whos made these claims, because, even if they were in bad faith (which I am not assuming), the severity of his claims have caused even good faith contributors to examine the evidence. I will assume it is good faith of course and respond accordingly. I'll number my points if anyone would like to respond to them by number (or I can bulletize them if its annoying). Well if you wanted to scour over my mistakes with regards to WP:N with some of my earliest edits, you've succeeded I suppose. Next time, TGH1970, just ask me to put up an editor review though, it may be easier. --Banime (talk) 23:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) First thing that shouldn't need to be said, is off wiki is always off wiki. I'm sure there are a number of editors and possibly administrators that belong to wikipedia criticism sites (which as far as I can tell is one of the purposes of the SomethingAwful site he showed), yet that shouldn't even come into the equation when judging a person's contributions to the site.  I never try to judge anyone based on off wiki contributions.  That being said, since it has been brought up against me, I am not annefrankfanatic.
 * 2) One of the first and easiest claims to refute against me is that I am User:Dans1120. I am not, please checkuser me if you'd like. I have never had another account.
 * 3) Another easy one to refute, he brings up that I sockpuppeted one of my first AfDs, which I did not. Please checkuser me if you'd like.  I have never used another account.
 * 4) Weedpunk was my first article creation, 9 months ago, and in retrospect was wrong according to WP:N. It was one of my earlier edits.  I still believe weedpunk is real, and I have heard the term in discussions before (and I thought written), but since I have not found a reliable source mentioning it so far in my search it was wrong to put it up at the time.  It was a definite question of WP:N.  The article was never a "confirmed hoax", as TGH1970 is bringing up often, please read the AfD, the closing admin simply said there were no reliable sources.  However, I suppose you are free to believe that the website TGH1970 is providing is the definite resource on what is fake in the world of relatively minor literary genres.  Perhaps the name is odd or seldom used but much literature fits under its definition, I just haven't found reliable sources for it and therefore it was wrong of me to put it up.
 * 5) Slowrun, which I made about 6 months ago as well, as TGH1970 claims is another "obvious hoax". Of course, please read the AfD, and see that it was never an obvious hoax and many video gamers wanted to merge or keep it.  However, consensus eventually developed that there were no reliable sources for it.  Obviously speedruns, longplays and I thought slowruns were all pretty well known terms but just because the gaming community uses them doesn't mean they belong in wikipedia unless there are reliable sources describing them in significant coverage.  Another Wp:N mistake of mine.  After this, I started editting more heavily, learned the rules, and decided to be very cautious when making articles like these so that I wouldn't make the same mistakes.
 * 6) And I didn't until now with Podtats apparently. This was a few months ago, and I still believe the article has merits.  Perhaps I got the name wrong, and iPod tattoos would be better, but if you read the article it was all real.  Udom first started the idea with podtats.com so I used the term podtats.  That was wrong in retrospect as again it didn't have the proper reliable sources.  Besides that the article was pretty well sourced and described a lot more than Udom including current ipod tattoos, companies that do it, and techniques.
 * 7) The website links he brought up. Apparently there is some sort of vandalism contest going on there, and I perhaps have been targetted somehow for an elaborate troll.  I don't claim to know the motivations of anyone, but if someone had wished to get an innocent user banned, I suppose it may be easy to follow them around and post the edits they do and say you did it on an outside website.  TGH1970 said (in reply that he deleted later from this very ANI here) that he was just "reading the forums" of that website and "came across it", but the pages he linked to were not on the first page, second page, third page, or even 108th page.  They were on the 109th page of that website, which would mean he must have known where to look beforehand.  I always assume good faith but when you lay such serious claims down on me such as these I'm sorry if I can't help but think that there may be a possibility of ulterior motives.  If you are not annefrankfanatic or some other troll, I apologize.  However, it looks increasingly possible, and at the very least, very odd.
 * Can you explain the timing between the posts on SA and the inclusion of the content on WP? In other words, we are concerned that you made those entries deliberately to disrupt wikipedia based on the short time between your edits here and the post "announcing" them on that noticeboard--less than a minute in one case.  That would seem to contradict your claim that you made those errors out of ignorance.  Are you asserting (to be clear) that the synchronicity of those posts is part of an elaborate trolling or vandalism scheme to make it seem as though your edits would be illegitimate? Protonk (talk) 00:00, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't like anything but assuming good faith and leaving off-wiki things out of wiki discussions, as I have said. However since these claims have been brought up I'll be as clear as I can be.  I believe due to TGH1970's sketchy account creation and edit circumstances, bad tempered replies, false reasons for coming up with this report ("was just browsing") and knowing exactly where to find those links to the 109th page of that website, that I believe it is very possible for him to have done so.  I am not annefrankfanatic.  He may in fact be, or another troll, based on this evidence alone. --Banime (talk) 00:11, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I'm not clear. I don't care about the content of what was written off wiki.  I care that what was written off wiki, if it was written by you, would show that you knowlingly created and defended hoax articles or edits (Here I mean weekpunk not slowrun, which was just nn, not a hoax) or poorly sourced "attack" articles (podtats).  And I want you to say, without ambiguity, that the posts made there, literally minutes after you made edits on wikipedia about the same subject and all by the same name were not made by you but were instead made by some other user in an attempt to harass you.  An attempt, I might add, that did not bear fruit until months later and solely by suggesting a possible link between the two.  What TGH1970 is or is not is unrelated.  If he is a troll or a sock he will be blocked indefinitely.  What is important is that we can trust you. Protonk (talk) 00:22, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I did not make those posts. If you're concerned by the "months long" part, the third rule for the aforementioned vandalism contest state "3) i will keep track of your edits for at least 1 (one) month or more" which seems time isn't too much of an issue. --Banime (talk) 00:34, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok. Despite some rather deep reservations I trust you.  I would be saddened to learn that you were lying. Protonk (talk) 00:40, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you kidding me? You're going to blame for all of this? Have you looked at Banime's edit history? He is obviously the one who has created these articles, he's obviously the one who has repeatedly made edits seconds after posting about on the forums and he has obviously created Podtats as a mean to smear Jarin Udom. You're actually going to turn around and say that this is some kind of massive conspiracy against him? The evidence here is overwhelming, and most of it comes from Banime's own edit history and I cannot believe you're going to turn around and blame me for filing this report. TGH1970 (talk) 00:43, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm going to say that I trust him. He's told me (despite the fact that he knows I know the facts of the matter) that he didn't do it.  If he is lying to me, so be it.  I chose to believe that he is not.  Another admin may feel differently, but getting upset about it won't change anything. Protonk (talk) 00:49, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, that's a pretty lousy administrative decision then. Of course I will wait for an unbiased third party to actually review the evidence here, because simply taking his word for it has to be the most shortsighted explanation for dismissing piles of evidence that I've ever heard of. TGH1970 (talk) 01:00, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You are welcome to that opinion, of course. I'm not stupid, by the way.  Nor am I biased.  Nor is my claim that I trust banime the end of the discussion here (as Category:Administrators is well populated). Protonk (talk) 01:03, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright, well now I have an IP that can be checked: this post and this edit. I think a checkuser would be justified in this instance. TGH1970 (talk) 00:17, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please do so if it will put this to rest. --Banime (talk) 00:23, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Banime does not have a vanity host set up, and has given me explicit permission to post his IRC mask. His IRC mask (ie the one he is currently using) is PC-1110.STUDFB.UniBw-Muenchen.de, which is in Germany. The WHOIS of the IP mentioned is available here (I did have the WHOIS up, but I think it may be copyrighted). In short, there is no checkuser needed to know that they are in different continents - the IP is in Australia. &mdash; neuro(talk) 00:37, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't believe either one of you. If that's not Banime it's his proxy. TGH1970 (talk) 00:44, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Section break 1

 * this post and this edit. This post and the creation date of Slowrun (which I can't see because I'm not an admin, but which I'm certain is almost the exact same time). TGH1970 (talk) 00:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What needs to be found is whether any posts on SA were made before the editing on Wikipedia occurred. Obviously no links will occur because you would only link after you create, but if you can find clear intent... there you go then. &mdash; neuro(talk) 00:56, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The evidence is overwhelming. There is no point in pretending that this is anybody except Banime. Putting your own ridiculous requirements on the evidence doesn't make it any less significant. Any unbiased third party would clearly see these are the same people. TGH1970 (talk) 01:00, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I understand what you are saying. If Banime didn't do this than someone who is out to smear him did. If he did do it, he should already know that the right answer is to come clean and fess up to it. My suggestion to you is that if you feel you are correct the proper route is to collect this information, present it in a fashion that makes your case (show the times of the edits and the posts, for starters) and make a clear, articulate and dispassionate argument that Banime==annefrankfanfic. Please do not get upset because we trust Banime more than we trust you. He is part of the community here and we aim to make this feel like a community--we don't want to throw him out on his ass at the merest hint of impropriety. We aren't blind to facts and argumentation, but some bias cannot be removed. Please understand that. No matter who is correct, the truth will come out in the wash. Protonk (talk) 01:01, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * This post andthese edits. If this is somebody's underhanded conspiracy it would be one of the most complex and discrete in the history of the world. TGH1970 (talk) 00:56, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Not sure how any of these new links you are posting are linked to me in any way and can be conceived of as vandalism in any sense of the word. They were not me, the IP proves that definitively.  Annefrankfanatic said he was going to vandalize that link to X Factor that you posted.  He did so.  The ip was from Australia.  I live in Germany. --Banime (talk) 01:03, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see how the post two up manages to link them. Am I missing something? &mdash; neuro(talk) 01:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Banime: Just so the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed, please confirm that you mistyped when you wrote above, "I am not annefrankfanatic" but meant to write "I am not anne frank fanfic", the user name of the poster at Somethingawful.com. Assuming that is out of the way, I gotta say I am appalled at the way this thread has progressed. Especially, I am sorry to say, the judgment exhibited by Protonk, the only admin with a substantial presence in the thread. An editor in good standing has been accused without sustainable evidence of serious infractions, and all you can think of writing is, "Despite some rather deep reservations I trust you," and "If he is lying to me, so be it. I chose to believe that he is not." The Germans have a phrase for this, they call it "a second-class acquittal". What Banime deserves instead is to have his name cleared in a resounding manner.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 01:08, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry I had the name wrong. I am not the user that TGH1970 accused me of being, "anne frank fanfic".  --Banime (talk) 01:09, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Really? In order to trust him I have to accept that someone stalked banime's good faith but misguided edits so closely that they posted to an SA forum within minutes of seeing them over multiple threads (at SA) and multiple articles (here) and that the person posting there was just hoping that banime's edits would be questionable (and was around no matter when they were made) and impersonated him on a forum off wiki (using a totally unrelated forum name). That's a staggering coincidence. It takes a hell of a lot to say "yes I trust you" when his word is the only exculpatory evidence. Protonk (talk) 01:13, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow. "Questionable edits," eh? -- Except that there is nothing at all wrong with the edits, even if they're not fit to be chiseled in stone and enshrined in Wikipedia 1.0. "Within minutes," you say? (A) How do you know that: what timezone does SA use, and what timezone does WP use? (B) Of course I can follow someone around on WP via "user contributions" and react in under a minute by reflecting a post on another website, no technical expertise required. So, guilty until proven innocent? ( Counting the seconds until an imbecile tells me WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A COURT OF LAW.) I gotta stop, this is giving me heartburn.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 01:32, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure. Questionable edits.  Hoaxes.  Subtle vandalism.  A poorly sourced article that was a coatrack attack on a person.  There is nothing wrong with these edits if they are taken in isolation.  Creating Weedpunk is not an "offense" in any reasonable definition.  But if it was created deliberately as a hoax w/ knowledge of our content guidelines, that is different.  As for the time zone thing, ok.  I'll bite.  the SA times are probably shown in GMT.  IF they aren't, then the posts to SA are (some constant number of hours) + 1-2 minutes each time.  Tell me which one is more likely.  As for the guilty before innocent drama, spare me.  If we were really terrible people willing to ban banime at the drop of a hat he would have been indeffed a day ago. Protonk (talk) 01:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Logout and all the times will match up in GMT. The reason they match up for you (Goodmorningworld) is because you've set the clock correctly on both your Wikipedia account and your SA forums account. TGH1970 (talk) 04:30, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The evidence is overwhelming. Banime will not be acquitted because the only evidence he can produce to the contrary is his own word saying he didn't do it. I reject that. The IP thing is a red herring since Banime is likely using a proxy. The user on SA and the user here are the same person. TGH1970 (talk) 01:16, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You brought up the IP yourself, as a way of finally discerning guilt or innocence. Because it did not show the way you were arguing are not means to throw it out.  As of now it is the most provable of your links, since, at 17 November, 2008 08:17 by that websites time, there is a post stating that he is about to vandalize.  At 13:19 wikitime, the vandalism occurs(I'm pretty sure the hours are due to time zone differences and the minutes are what you should be concerned with).  Within seconds, at 08:19 forums time he posts the vandalism in that link.  This is almost guaranteed to be him, the ip was checked and it was from Australia.  As stated before, I live in Germany. This is the only definitive proof that I can show, besides my word against the word of your very odd account and a website called something awful which apparently is a humor website.--Banime (talk) 01:36, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The last time I looked, TGH, it was 'innocent until proven guilty'. &mdash; neuro(talk) 01:42, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * TGH, as I said before, you repeating that the evidence is overwhelming doesn't move the conversation forward. AN/I is an exceedingly well trafficked board and plenty of users besides neuro, banime and myself have seen this thread. If you were going to find takers on the "this evidence is compelling" front, you would have found them by now. Protonk (talk) 02:58, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You yourself have said that it is very difficult for you to believe that Banime did not do things he is accused of doing. You've also said that the only reason you don't believe that is because he told you he didn't. Even though we have a record of his edits that show that he did.
 * And now, on your talk page, you're talking about running a checkuser on me. Why are you attacking me for reporting this at ANI? What is so vitally important about Banime's contributions that you are willing to overlook egregious breeches of policy so that you can go after the person who filed the report? What have I done wrong in all of this except try to protect the encyclopedia from a person who has admitted they are trying to undermine the integrity of the project? TGH1970 (talk) 04:13, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No one is attacking you. A checkuser will probably get filed to try and get to the bottom of things.  If you are using another account concurrently and have made this one to avoid scrutiny being cast on that account, that is a problem.  If you have just abandoned the old account then there isn't a problem.  If you aren't using the old account you could just end this right now and tell us what it is.  A situation like this is starved for context.  We are trying to provide it.  Also, I'm eminently pleased that both you and Goodmorningworld think I'm doing a poor job of this for exactly opposite reasons.  Gives me some hope that I might be doing the right thing. Protonk (talk) 04:20, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No. And I will fight any attempt to run a checkuser. I have committed no violation and this is now a witch hunt by several parties to try and fabricate a reason that Banime cannot be guilty of doing what he has done. There is absolutely no context needed here on my part. I've already explained (several times) how and why I discovered the violation being made and then reported it. That's as much due process as I need to go through. No other context is required for reports at ANI. Stop trying to make this about me when you are deliberetely refusing to acknowledge evidence against Banime. TGH1970 (talk) 04:35, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Protonk has filed a second checkuser request against me, after Banime's initial request has been rejected. A second (and third and fourth) administrator needs to review this thread and make a judgment call so this circus can finally end. TGH1970 (talk) 04:47, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That request has also been declined. I would ask any (other) administrator now to review this case and make a ruling based on the facts. TGH1970 (talk) 22:43, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to request TGH1970 to please stop attempting to disrupt all of my edits from here on out, such as with this. You seem very dismayed that I'm not constantly at ANI for some reason, but I'd rather continue my work here on wikipedia than keep reporting to this thread. Its very disrupting of you to post such a thing. If anyone would like to scour over my every edit to that article than please do so. However as it is now its just disrupting the process of further improving the encyclopedia. You've made your claims here TGH1970, and thankfully none of them have anything to do with any edits earlier than a few months ago, so I'd appreciate it if while this ANI is being carried out you'd refrain from trying to disrupt anything I'm working on. Thanks. --Banime (talk) 00:54, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd have to ask a neutral editor or admin as well, if that edit should be allowed to stand on the FAC? Thanks for your time and input. --Banime (talk) 00:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Your edits need to be scrutinized. You have lost any credibility in this encyclopedia. TGH1970 (talk) 00:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You've asserted that many times, but until this ANI is complete I'd really appreciate it if you stayed out of what I was working on if all you intend to do is disrupt it. Thanks. --Banime (talk) 00:58, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You should first give WP:OWN a good once over. The users on that page are entitled to know what you've been up to and what the possible outcome of that could be on their featured article. TGH1970 (talk) 01:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see how that policy relates with anything you've said. --Banime (talk) 01:06, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * And one more thing about all of this: Jarin Udom is user Jargon on the Something Awful forums. The Podtats idea originated in FYAD and was only discussed there. There are no other sources from anywhere about Podtats, so Banime's material for that article had to have come directly out of that subforum. Considering his many derisive remarks about Jarin Udom' habits (all of which also originated in FYAD), this user demonstrates a level of knowledge about him that could not have come from any other place except the FYAD subforum at Something Awful. TGH1970 (talk) 00:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Udom created the website Podtats.com --Banime (talk) 00:59, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * But most of the information you inserted into that article was not public knowledge, nor was it publicly accessible through any other place except the Something Awful forums. How do you explain that? TGH1970 (talk) 01:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * This all seems rather silly. Banime's push for Frederick the III is enough evidence that he is a standard user who produces valuable content. The burden of evidence has not been met to prove otherwise. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You should read the thread more carefully. Your friend appears to be rather two-faced about his participation in the project. TGH1970 (talk) 01:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you should look into your history before you start throwing around comments like "your friend". I don't have a relationship with the user. You, however, seem to have one. If anyone is biased, you surely seem to be the person. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:04, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Important point #2: on his userpage, Banime makes reference to a stand up routine originated by Something Awful user Daniel "Flying Squid" Geduld (an article which User:Dans1120 was indefblocked for creating). Specifically, where he says "Goofy is my favorite, gorsh" is a reference to a specific part of this routine (at 1:00) which was widely panned by the FYAD subforum of SomethingAwful.com. One of the latest threads to do so is here and relevant pieces of that thread are here (from indefblocked Wikipedia user Rubber cat) and here (in the quote). TGH1970 (talk) 01:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Pardon my French, TGH, but, please, shut the fuck up before you put your foot any further into your mouth. You have not provided ample evidence to prove your claims, and instead when a neutral admin stated that he believed Banime, you attacked him.  Now I'm stating I trust Banime's word more than yours.  Two neutral administrators are siding with Banime because you're not providing any usable evidence; just drop it. - Jéské   Couriano  ( v^_^v ) 22:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No. I'm absolutely right about all of this and the only reason you're electing to be so hostile to me is because I don't necessarily have the longevity that Banime has. An avalanche of evidence says he's abusing this encyclopedia and you're only protecting him because you don't want to believe what's right in front of you. TGH1970 (talk) 01:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I see no solid evidence, just a lot of circumstantial stuff that is entirely predicated on the assumption that Banime is also "Anne Frank fanfic." Since there's no solid evidence of that, all that your continuing to post more stuff is going to do is annoy and alienate more admins.  I may be Just Another Ordinary Editor, but right now, all you're contributing here is a lot of hot air that isn't doing you any favors.  Let it go.  If Banime really is a vandal/troll, eventually, he'll edit in a way that'll get him blocked on his own.  As it stands, I suspect you're getting close to getting blocked yourself for being disruptive here on ANI; the best move, at this point, is to disengage and find something else to do here.  rdfox 76 (talk) 01:58, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Then I should probably be blocked, since the only counter evidence anybody has been able to offer in Banime's defense is "well he said he didn't do it." Sorry but that's not good enough for me and it shouldn't be good enough for anybody. TGH1970 (talk) 02:02, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And to say anything is "predicated" on anne frank fanfic and Banime being the same user is ridiculous, edit times on Wikipedia and post times on Something Awful show a clear correlation between these two users. The thread about Podtats demonstrates that Banime was the person who created that thread and continued to edit it for the past three months. It also demonstrates that he achieved a level of knowledge about Jarin Udom that he could only have gotten from the Something Awful forums (specifically the FYAD subforum where he posts as anne frank fanfic). Banime has yet to explan where else he would have found that information and how he could have come to know about Podtats outside of FYAD. That, I think, should be an important point in the investigation here. TGH1970 (talk) 02:05, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Here is another edit where Banime takes a potshot at Daniel Geduld. And here is Banime inserting a reference to the literary punk articles he previously vandalized and posted about Something Awful. And here he is adding World War II to the list of fan fiction he likes. Here I'm going to point out that Anne Frank Fanfiction would fall under that category and so far Banime has done an absolutely remarkable job of making fools out of everyone at ANI. TGH1970 (talk) 02:47, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Here he posts to an AFD about Anne Frank, where he casts a throwaway gimmick vote to keep it and here is the follow up post about it. TGH1970 (talk) 03:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't see the image he uploaded anymore, but this or this is probably the same as this which significantly predates the creation of that article, meaning that it likely came directly out of FYAD. The text that Banime inserted to the first paragraph of Podtats (which I can't link since it's been deleted) concerns a joke about backpedaling which originated here. Most of the jokes in that article are derived from this thread which, again, could only have been accessed through FYAD and would only be funny to the users who browse that forum. TGH1970 (talk) 03:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * A google search for the term "Podtats" produces 0 third party sources for the term that don't trace back to somethingawful.com. There are a few hits which are mirrors of the now-deleted Wikipedia article, but nothing from any other blog, forum or any source of any kind except Something Awful. TGH1970 (talk) 03:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Blocked, review requested
I have blocked indefinitely for disrupting this page. He was warned many times above to disengage, but persists and continues to post here on a matter which should be closed. Of course, I welcome the input and review of this block by my fellow admins. -MBK004 04:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC) He just replaced his talk page with. After having posting another unblock request saying he wanted to appeal to arbcom. -MBK004 05:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Seems relatively reasonable--I won't damn it with faint praise, I endorse the block. I count (not just on this talk page) 5 times where I told him that he should disengage, at least.  I'd prefer we didn't have to block a user in the middle of their complaint against another but this is no longer the middle of the complaint--it is approaching the end.  An unblock request that included some recognition that the user was acting as though they were on a crusade and contained a promise to either edit the encyclopedia or patiently wait out the end of the dispute could be accepted, IMO.  Though I don't see one as forthcoming. Protonk (talk) 04:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * JUst declined the unblock request, as he expressed that he wanted to retire. Given that a retired account isn't editing anymore (duh!) I declined the request.  Oh, and I endorse the block to begin with... --Jayron32. talk . contribs  04:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Legal mutterings on Saatchi Gallery again
It seems that User:Infoart, the gallery's mouthpiece is back again attempting to wield a stick. There's a history of this; but this time it's over the articles over the Danovo court case. This time he's been editing, with no proper citations to say the liqudation was cancelled and asking that "you would like to put your name and email here so that the Saatchi Gallery’s legal representatives can contact you and clarify your ‘confusion’." This really is becoming tedious, although somewhat amusing considering Infoart has uploaded images of pictures releasing them under the GFDL, something which, to me, is unlikely as I believe it's not just the gallery's permission that is needed but that of the artist (and he continues to avoid talk page discussions asking for clarity). He ignores his talk page, instead preferring to reinstate edits and then complain on the article talk page. And then there's the obvious COI concerns as ever. Now I'm not sure a case number is proper citation; others may disagree, I know there are a few of us who don't view InfoArt as a good faith editor, however the legal mummerings that he keeps throwing out beg for action. --Blowdart | talk 11:51, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The last time this popped up, (I'm too lazy to look in the archives), I said that I was tired of this and proposed an indef block. How bout it? Haven't we put up with this for long enough? Does anybody really oppose a block because this editor is continually trying the patience of the community and trying to instigate a hostile editing environment. -MBK004 15:48, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I have the day off so I spent the last couple hours slogging through the mess. After going over a couple years worth of contentious edits, legal threats, utter misunderstanding of the role and purpose of an encyclopedia, and an attitude of blatant disregard towards policies and guidelines, consensus, and his fellow editors; I have to conclude that there is no longer a place for User:Infoart at Wikipedia.  Accordingly, I also endorse an indefinite block of said user. L0b0t (talk) 16:03, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we could mention their attempts in the article...since there is a reliable source... --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 19:02, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Probably best not to do that. I don't think we have absolute proof that he is the authorised mouthpiece of the gallery, although it is hard to see any other possibility as very likely. If he were posting in an unofficial capacity then surely the gallery would have dealt with him severely by now. As it is, he is bringing the gallery into disrepute by behaving so badly.
 * Anyway, the last discussion was archived from here without reaching a conclusion but I think we were heading towards a consensus for a block. Personally, I think a block is justified. This guy has had plenty of chances to behave and has not taken them. Last time, I suggested that maybe he should be blocked from articles but allowed on talk pages. Given that his actions on talk pages have become disruptive and detrimental to the work of improving the articles, I no longer believe this. I think a complete block is the best option.
 * I also think it would be sensible to delete all the images he uploaded which have questionable licensing, even though some are quite useful. If the gallery wants to release content under the GFDL they need to do it in a way that leaves no doubt that it really is them who are doing it and that they are in a position to do so.
 * --DanielRigal (talk) 22:58, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What Daniel said. Ban Infoart. Delete the pictures of questionable GFDL. Single mention of dispute in the Guardian is not enough reason to mention it in the article in question (if it were that sort of short mention of a dispute the Gallery had with some other organization we would likely not mention. We shouldn't treat Wikipedia any differently) . JoshuaZ (talk) 23:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Blocked
I've blocked Infoart for disruptive editing including legal threats. Considering all that has gone before on ANI and at Talk:Saatchi Gallery I could think of no better duration than indefinite. While I note that consensus seems to be moving towards supporting a ban, my only concern is to prevent disruption at the article itself, and I'm not opposed to an unblock in principle, if this editor (or editors, if it is a group account) shows signs of appreciating that there are limits to the conduct that we will tolerate here. S HEFFIELD S TEEL TALK 01:01, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * good call. FWIW, among their threats was that they would remove Saatchi-related content, which are presumably the images referred to above that they attempted to license. So they seem to have accomplished that. DGG (talk) 04:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've tagged those images as pui anyway. Their status is dubious at best, I find it hard to believe the gallery owns the copyright, that remains with the artist, and there are a few blatant copyright violations of newspaper scans which mention exhibitions. Boy that took a while. --Blowdart | talk 12:40, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As the original editor to propose this, I would be remiss in not endorsing the block. I wonder when the unblock request will come? -MBK004 02:03, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Endorse the block. This tiny little corner of Wikipedia has been a battleground long enough.  Infoart has been warned and blocked before.  It is clear he is not here for the greater good of the project... --Jayron32. talk . contribs  04:46, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism fighting hampered by false IP addresses
Today, two shared IP addresses have been blocked for vandalism after final warning, but the blocks were lifted when it became apparent that these were IP addresses that actually cover a huge range of IP addresses. Two separate discussions were started on WP:AN, but there is a "combined" discussion on there now. However, there hasn't been anyone contributing who knows about what the problem is. Could someone who has the technical know-how please come and help? Thanks! WP:AN. StephenBuxton (talk) 15:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There's a bugzilla located here: Bugzilla 16569 that was started earlier today. The devs appear to be working on the problem.  Please see that Bugzilla report and the AN discussion located at WP:AN.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  02:48, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Mark Bellinghaus - COI editing, block evasion, sockpuppetry, personal attacks, and possible legal threats
Mark Bellinghaus, previously as User:Mmmovie for threats and attempted outing, and subsequently blocked as User:Weareallone for block evasion, appears to be back as User:JustLikeThatMM and user:76.168.70.147 (see this SSP case]). The IP in particular has self-identified as Bellinghaus and is making accusations on my talk page and elsewhere. See for example. Can someone block please? Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's a straight up quack. JustLikeThatMM is blocked indef. Checking the others, although I'd like some help. SSP's aren't my strong suit...I've only blocked the blatantly obvious one. --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 02:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, since we can't out and out ban IPs, but since this one seems fixed and has only been used by him, I gave the IP a 1 year block to match the indefinite on his other accounts. Continuing to harass you from behind an IP is just not acceptable. --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 02:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks Smashville! Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:17, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Problem on a BLP
Hi,

I was busy cleaning up some articles, when I came across this. All I can say is, it's a good thing I removed it when I did. Can I urge people to watch BLPs for stuff like that? Imagine if the person had seen it, and the damage caused? Damage may have even been caused already. This is yet another good cause for semi-protecting all BLPs indefinitely. It's just not worth the risk. Thanks for your concern. – How do you turn this on (talk) 01:06, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, that's not good. Thanks for catching it. –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  01:11, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I know it's probably cold comfort, but it was "only" up for about 30 hours. Sadly, I figure there's probably similarly contentious and juvenile edits on some BLPs that have stuck around much, much longer.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 01:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC).
 * Isn't there some sort of "category blacklist"? At least then we can put "P(a)edo*" in the "um, hell no" list. Because honestly, even if it's proven true, I can't see why we'd want to add anyone to a category like that; it's just asking for trouble.GJC 02:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's a very interesting idea. If it hasn't already, it should be proposed. – How do you turn this on (talk) 02:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yet another fine use for the soon-to-be-implemented Abuse filter. And there will be much rejoicing!  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  02:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed, given that accusations of pædophilia can result not only in damage to people's reputations, but also in actual physical harm, this seems like it would be an ideal use of the abuse filter. Lankiveil (speak to me) 06:03, 6 December 2008 (UTC).

Harrassment by HarleyLocal605
After I tagged DaishoCon for speedy deletion, the article's creator,, has been posting fake speed deletion notices on my talk page. I informed the HarleyLocal605 stop harassing me by adding fake notices however the editor has added another fake notices to my talk page, this time for my userpage. --Farix (Talk) 01:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * For the record, he seems to have stopped the harassment, as there have not been any further disruptions to Farix's user or talk page. Ha appears to be trying to work within Wikipedia guidelines now.  I have also changed the speedy deletion to an AFD discussion, as the user recently added some references.  I also left a more stern and personal warning at their talk page.  Lets hold off on a block for a little while to see where he goes with this... --Jayron32. talk . contribs  02:39, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * He has attempted to do a copy and paste move without the AFD notice to Daisho Con. I've undone the move until the AfD has concluded. --Farix (Talk) 02:53, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And, he made a poor choice: . I blocked him for 48 hours.  If he continues to harass other users, then please let us know here at ANI and he can be blocked again for longer.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  03:09, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It keeps getting better. See Requests for checkuser/Case/HarleyLocal605.  It has not been acted on yet, but this doesn't look good for our friend HarleyLocal605... --Jayron32. talk . contribs  03:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Adding this more as a matter of record. He did this BEFORE he vandalized DaishoCon with that personal attack on me and Jayron. --Farix (Talk) 03:32, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Help needed ...
with this: Special:Contributions/Angerdrops. The user has been blocked but I could use some assistance with the clean-up. -MBK004 03:49, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Assertion of article ownership


The above user, along with his IP, continually edits Nas related articles to fit his criteria, not the guidelines, manual of styles, or policies. He asserts articles ownership and reverts edits without discussion with whatever he likes best. Both his account and IP have been blocked before for this disrupting editing and I'd rather have an admin deal with it, and also to avoid any type of 3RR, because I'm completely ignored by this person, despite my warnings. Diverse Mentality  07:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC) I only pointed the account out because the IP is that person. Once the account got blocked, he used that IP, which also got blocked shortly afterward for the same disruption. Thanks for taking care of it, though. Diverse Mentality  08:16, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That named account hasn't editing since september. Protonk (talk) 08:03, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * IP blocked for edit warring.  Looks like the same user (or similar). Protonk (talk) 08:07, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Block review of User:Oct11988duh‎ - blocked for blatant copyright violation
Special:Contributions/Oct11988duh‎ started uploading several images from his/her flickr account into commons, and added them to several articles including Bindi (decoration), Women in India, Sari etc. Some of the images looked suspect, and I requested the user not to add the images (some were quite irrelevant to the articles). The user kept re-inserting the images. I looked into the licensing, and there were some immediate issues. For example, the user uploaded commons:Image:Red_Bindi.jpg, which by his/her own admission, was a scan from a magazine. After it was speedily deleted, the user hastily reuploaded it and claimed this to be from the user's own work flickr account (. Next, the user uploaded image:Indian Bride.jpg, claiming it to be own work from his/her flickr account. Actually, a quick google search shows the image was taken from here, and copyrighted by AFP. (contrary to the user's claim's in both flickr and commons).

I requested the user not to keep adding the copyvio images. However, the user kept reverting back the images both in Bindi (decoration) and Women in India. I proceeded to block the user and also mentioned in the user's talk page that I am willing to unblock the user as soon as the user promises to not use the copyvio photos.

However, rather than making any such promise, the user claims in his/her talk page that the block is unfair and constitutes "abuse by an administrator". So, I am putting the block up for review. I also want to clarify that my block of 48 hours was not meant to be a 2 day block, rather I was going to unblock the user as soon as the user promised not to violate copyright. If the user shows understanding of copyright, I am willing to unblock him/her right away. If other admins feel the block was unreasonable, feel free to unblock the user right away. --Ragib (talk) 10:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * PS I am logging off for at least 8 hours from now, so ... if other admins deem the block unnecessary, feel free to unblock the user in the mean while. --Ragib (talk) 10:32, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I totally support the block and unless the user shows any signs of reform I support extending the block too. - Mgm|(talk) 14:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

An interesting vandal
is adding to multiple articles at the same time. S/he has been reported to AIV. Could someone take a quick action? LeaveSleaves talk 13:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Cross wiki vandal series creating monobook.js which edits "special:random" pages. Reported on CU list earlier but obviously still trying to play.  Blocked anyway (& again posted to CU list).  Thanks -- Herby  talk thyme 13:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

User Celanese is Corporate Sock
Please check the Celanese page history, the current ad-copy writing style of the article, the discussion page, and the editing history of User Celanese -- and remedy what is an obvious case of abuse and COI. Thanks mightily. 64.142.90.33 (talk) 02:12, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Username blocked as a clear violation (username matches name of article being edited). I will let others clean up any mess left behind.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  02:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's be a little nicer to people. Calling the person a "corporate sock" is bitey.  What if the user was the secretary to the human relations department person that deals with overtime pay for employees paid by the hour?  What if the user was a junior chemist working on project XYZ but had a few minutes to spare?  They are not necessarily the Vice President for Media Relations.  I explained the name policy on the person's talk page. Chergles (talk) 18:35, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Supposedly blocked IP able to edit page
Supposedly blocked IP was able to revert redirect. Dr.K. (logos) 06:07, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope. Blocked at 2:09, last edited at 2:07.  You must be confused... --Jayron32. talk . contribs  06:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I am never confused. There was no date-time stamp on the block. The IP activity appeared on my watchlist and when I tried to give it a warning I saw the block notice. Without the time stamp on the page I assumed the block was old. When I double checked the history of the IP block page I discovered that the block was recent. By then I had an edit conflict with you when I tried to remove the notice. So please make a habit to attach a date-time stamp on such blocks instead of calling people who try to help you confused. Dr.K. (logos) 06:21, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The editor's last entry shows 2:07. The block log  shows 2:09. When the last entry against an item is a log entry, the previous entry on the item (such as an edit) typically does not show, i.e the block entry overrides it in the watch list. It's a system oddity. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks Bugs. I guess you just reported a bug :) (Or was it a gremlin?) Dr.K. (logos) 07:21, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not actually sure it's a "bug", just an "oddity". One example I can think of is when this page gets vandalized (believe or not, that does happen) and an admin semi-protects it, I think that the normal watchlog entry for this page disappears, and the only entry showing is the protection log... until someone edits this page again. I might be getting my stories mixed up, but it's something like that. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:25, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've seen this also. But in this case this wasn't the problem for me. The problem was that the block notice on the talk page did not have a date-time stamp. Aren't block notices supposed to be date and time stamped? In this case I saw the vandalism on Muhammad and slavery on my watchlist, I reverted it and when I tried to warn the user on their talk page I saw the block notice. I assumed that the notice must have been old because the edit was so fresh. If the block notice had a date stamp appearing on the talk page it would help me see that the block was recent. Dr.K. (logos) 07:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, well, I'm only seeing this one entry on the talk page from 2:22, a notice of being blocked due to being a proxy. I don't know if there's a rule about time-stamping within the blocks in general, but it's on the edit history. And if you go to template blocked proxy, you'll see that there's no parameter for a timestamp. So maybe the admin who posted it could have done 4 tildes after it or something to make it clearer when it was posted. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:50, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks again Bugs. I am used to seeing time stamps in other type blocks and that misled me. I did take corrective action by looking at the talk page history immediately after, but by the time I was editing WP:ANI to delete my post the edit conflict happened. Dr.K. (logos) 16:49, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Possible POV tag spamming?
On 1 December Murat inserted a POV tag and a Cleanup tag into three different articles: and  and .He did this without leaving the required note on their talk pages describing what he considered to be unacceptable about the articles. I removed the 6 tags, saying in the edit summary that they should have been accompanied by an explanation in the talk page detailing the alleged POV content (here is an example ).

Murat then complained about my removal of the tags to Nishkid64 and also inserted a subsection in each article, titled "Disputed Objectivity". Into this subsection he placed identical text and  and. That text did not point out any specific examples of POV bias in the articles. The text also bore no relation to the articles subjects - for example, Justin McCarthy is a person, not a "Turkish city, with a thousand year Seljuk-Ottoman-Turkish history"! However, on the basis of that off-topic and copypasted text, Nishkid64 reinserted the POV tags into the three articles, saying that an "explanation had been provided" and that my edit summary was "bickering" (here is an example ).

In the light of Nishkid64's "bickering" comment, can I have confirmation that I was right to remove the tags the first time around because they were invalid without an accompanying talk page explanation. Secondly, what is your opinion about an editor inserting POV tags on the basis of what another editor has posted? Shouldn't the editor who places the POV tag (Nishkid64) be the one to explain why the POV tag is there? Thirdly, does that copypasted and off-topic text added by Murat constitute an acceptable explanation for inserting a POV tag? The addition by Murat of these tags and the copypasted text appears more like a case of "I don't like it", rather than a serious attempt at addressing actual POV material. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif; color:#0088BB;">Meowy 16:35, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You might have assumed good faith and asked him to clarify why he placed the tags if the reason was unclear prior to their removal, though his reasonings seem a bit off, probably shouldn't have been cut and paste and while appropriate to the one on the city, they should be clarified for the other two. My guess is he feels that somehow something in those articles is related to the PoV problems he sees at the city article.--Crossmr (talk) 16:48, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't POV tags have to be used with an accompanying talk page explanation? I removed the tags not because of lack of clarity over their placement or because I disagreed with the allegation of POV bias, but because they had no explanation at all, not even an edit summary explanation. BTW, Murat's comment was also not appropriate for the Bitlis city entry - it has almost no "Armenian history" content - I think he may have intended it for the Van_Resistance article, which he also placed a POV tag on, or some yet to be tagged article. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif; color:#0088BB;">Meowy 17:14, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * A POV tag should be used with a comment on the talk page, but no where in the template or documentation does it say it's required. The template does say "Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved." A better way to have approached this would be to drop a friendly note on the user's talk page saying something like "Hi, I didn't see a explanation on the talk page for the POV tag. Could you please tell me what you think the problem is so I can understand? Thanks!" -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:03, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems to say here that it is required, the word "must" is used, quote, "The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies". That page also says "Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag". If the addition of the tags were not justified, then I was justified in removing it. Any words contained in the tag are irrelevant if the use of the tag is not justified. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif; color:#0088BB;">Meowy  18:16, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec)Good catch, it sure does say that. Still, if an editor only sees what's on the tag and the documentation, how would they know? A friendly question on their talk page will get good results most of the time, and doesn't take much effort. The few times it doesn't, at least you know you're dealing with a jerk. :)


 * Since you don't know why the tag was added, how do you know you were justified in removing it?-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:22, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (Well, other than just wikilawyering...)-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:24, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Tags are there to initiate discussions to improve articles. If nobody knows why a tag was added, there can be no discusson. In such a circumstance there would be no justification in having that tag and the tag should be removed. But I accept your suggestion about first making a suggestion in the editor's talk page - I'll try that in the future. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif; color:#0088BB;">Meowy 21:24, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * From that page, "Please note: The above label is meant to indicate that a discussion is ongoing, and hence that the article contents are disputed and volatile. If you add the above code to an article which seems to be biased to you, but there is no prior discussion of the bias, you need to at least leave a note on the article's talk page describing what you consider unacceptable about the article. The note should address the problem with enough specificity to allow constructive discussion towards a resolution, such as identifying specific passages, elements, or phrasings that are problematic." It's clearly apparent that Murat believes the article is bent towards an Armenian POV. Let's stop arguing about tag additions and go to the talk page and engage in a dialogue with Murat. If, in a few days, he still doesn't provide specific points that he considers to be POV, then I will remove the tag from the article. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 20:18, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What Murat believes is only going to be an issue when Murat starts to provide some examples of the alleged unaceptable content! He didn't do that when placing the tags. Yes, you are right that if he continues not to provide specific points then the tags can be removed. The total lack of any points, of any reasons for having the tags, was the reason why I removed them - so my removal of them in that situation was not "bickering" (calling them that did not calm the situation). I'm pleased that you say you will remove the tags in a relatively short time if no specific points are provided, and I will engage with any issues raised in the talk pages. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif; color:#0088BB;">Meowy 21:18, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's a how-to guide. Not binding policy. Since its not binding policy you should have left a note rather than remove them.--Crossmr (talk) 01:51, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That comment as it stands is just an invite for any drive-by tag spammer to tag whatever he/she has a grudge against, with the knowledge that no explanation needs to be given and nobody will be allowed to remove the tag for several weeks. But, as I said, I accept the advice offered earlier. If the same situation comes up in the future, I'll leave a note on the editor's talk page and if there is no response after 24 hours, I will remove the tag. <span style="font-family:Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif; color:#0088BB;">Meowy  00:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Spammer? What uninvited commercial product was he selling with his addition of the NPOV tag? My comment is that if you find a tag added without explanation drop the person who left it a note. you don't have to leave it there for weeks, but if a couple days pass or they edit and don't address why they left the tag there (whichever happens first) feel free to remove it. Nowhere did I say you should leave it there for weeks.--Crossmr (talk) 10:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I complete agree with Meowy above. Unless a POV tagger is prepared to indicate on the Talk page that they're open to discussion of the supposed POV they believe the article is biased towards, drive-by tagging is inappropriate, as the tag clearly says.  Meowy was perfectly justified, and, by past standards, correct in removing the tags, and Nishkid should not have restored them without an explanation of his own, or from the original tagger.   Little Red Riding Hood  talk  00:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * To clarify, I restored the tags on Murat's promise that he would provide an explanation for the tag addition. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 19:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

First I want to thank the fellow who warned me that this discussion was raging here about me and my constributions without me being able to make a case.

Above all, these tags were placed by me, and I am not sure why I did not do it before, after long and long discussions on the talk pages of these articles as anyone can see. To claim that these POV tags were placed without "any" specific explanations seems to lack any good faith and also an insult to our intelligence in the light of lengthy discussions and outright removal of any of my attempts at injecting a bit of balance into these articles. After months of attempts and edits, none of my contributions to these articles have survived, and Meowy is wondering (genuinly?) why these tags were placed? My complaints to numerous folks about this harassemnt and activities of the Armenian gang have had no effect by the way. In fact the only tangible result has been restrictions on me. More is attempted here.

In spite of this, I have gone back and added still a separate heading "Disputed Objectivity" on the discussion pages of the three articles (there are a lot more). Yes, it was done at the same time and some of the "copy-paste" has gone awry, but that seems to be a technicality and pure cosmetics, a side issue, not related to the argument here on why the tags are there in the first place. Still after Nishkid64 has requested, I have repeated under these new headings most of what I had complained about in the previous months. Specifically! More is coming. There is really only one party who has not displayed any good faith here, only one party whose concern does not seem to be the content and its quality.--Murat (talk) 17:32, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Continuous harassment of other editors and referencing falsely sources
Rjecina is involved into these incivilties for a long period of time - even after being publicly warned by Wikipedia's administrators. Evidence and behavior is here:

a) Throwing claims falsely calling upon valid sources

If Helsinki Committe for Human right is saying that Serbia has been puppet state in period 1941 - 1944 then Serbia has been puppet state false claim thrown here proven as false by other editor here

It is interesting that 1 (Sajmište concentration camp) of this 2 camps on Croatian territory is not even between 22 largest camps on Yad Vashem list false claim thrown here proven as false by other editor here - the same false claim is repeated here even after getting the warning above -

are making clear difference between 6 camps and all others false claim thrown here - not supported by any reference counted by him/her

b) The same person had thrown a great number accusations against other editors calling them baselessly sock-puppets. See

, , 

The best description of this un-ethical behavior is given by a few administrators' warnings:

''You need to find other ways to occupy your time than making a lot of these sorts of requests. And you could stand to work on your general approach to editing and interacting as well... it's not as collegial as it could be. I think Ricky spoke rather harshly to you on your talk page, but I find myself in general agreement thematically. Too much of this is not productive, and is wasting the time of others. Please consider different approaches. ++Lar: t/c 14:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)''

or from:

''Don't try to be a smart ass. I told you then and I'll tell you the same now: only Thather knows what likely means and that's it for me. Don't act like I'm suggesting unbanning everyone else. I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. My issue is that you claim EVERYONE you disagree with is a sockpuppet of somebody. My patience with that line of arguing is at an end. Frankly, your user page is ridiculously aggressive and I believe a massive violation of WP:USER. I would suggest you tone it down and stop treating this like a battleground. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)''

which this person Rjecina keeps ignoring. I suggest an indefinite block of this account - for deliberately disrespecting the Wikipedia code of conduct and harassing other editors - even after receiving multiple warning coming from other users and administrators.--72.75.20.29 (talk) 18:01, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Gosh, a Washington DC Verizon user complaining about Rjecina, who could that be?. Thatcher 20:23, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thatcher, that is entirely uncalled for. Either you have sufficient evidence to block 72.75.xxx or you don't. Last time I checked, you were telling Rjecina to back off on this one. As far as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, our policies require us to AGF and not smear other editors. So it might be appropriate for you to either block this IP based on your checkuser results or well-grounded suspicions arising from them - or restrain yourself from such allegations. The first will result in the immediate closure of this thread based on your evidence; the second will result in my very substantially adding to it in the very near future, as I too am mightily tired of Rjecina. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:14, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Smear"? Overreact much? I think our Checkusers are entitled to a little sarcasm. John Reaves 21:18, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you think so, John? On what grounds do you think that sarcasm is helpful here? As I've said, either his checkuser results are sufficient to block this IP or they are not, in which case AGF applies, and we are required to apply as much GF to IPs as to other editors. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:31, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Where did I tell Rjecina to back off? And AGF does not mean I have to put blinders on and lower my IQ by 40 points before responding.  In any case, Velebit has not edited from a logged-in account in a long time, making a current checkuser report useless, not to mention the fact that Verizon has dynamic IP addressing.  For your part, would you care to suggest just how many people (1) live near DC, (2) subscribe to Verizon, (3) edit Wikipedia, (4) edit Serbian topics, and (5) have a beef with Rjecina?  (1) and (2) are very large, (3) quite a bit smaller, assuming there are 10,000-20,000 active editors at any one time, and (4) and (5) likely narrows it down quite a bit.  I would take claims of abusive editing more seriously from a registered, long time user than from an anonymous IP who shares considerable similarities with a banned user. Thatcher 21:21, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, if that is your view then I don't quite see why 72.75.xxx is still around. Heaven knows how many times I've seen the IP address had his ass hauled over to RFCU by Rjecina. Regarding your last point that "I would take claims of abusive editing more seriously from a registered, long time user than from an anonymous IP", yes, I'm on it. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:51, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

As per Thatcher suggestion I've clicked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Suspected_Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Velebit and, then, found

WHOIS RECORD

4.249.6.252

OrgName:   Level 3 Communications, Inc. OrgID:      LVLT Address:   1025 Eldorado Blvd. City:       Broomfield StateProv: CO PostalCode: 80021 Country:   US

66.217.131.125

OrgName:   PaeTec Communications, Inc. OrgID:      PAET Address:   One PAETEC Plaza Address:   600 Willowbrook Office Park City:      Fairport StateProv: NY PostalCode: 14450 Country:   US

70.239.22.239

OrgName:   AT&T Internet Services OrgID:     SIS-80 Address:   2701 N. Central Expwy # 2205.15 City:      Richardson StateProv: TX PostalCode: 75080 Country:   US

71.252.101.67

OrgName:   Verizon Internet Services Inc. OrgID:      VRIS Address:   1880 Campus Commons Dr City:       Reston StateProv: VA PostalCode: 20191 Country:   US

Going further, I've clicked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Velebit - so, this Thatcher in order to support his friend Rjecina marked likely a number of users. May I ask him - 'likely' means guilty? Of what? (4) edit Serbian topics, and (5) have a beef with Rjecina? Holocaust is a Serbian topic? have a beef with Rjecina resulting automatically into conclusion that behind the beef is always the same person?> So, cristal ball of a checkuser (who cannot see, not he is allowed to see by the law, any data behind the IP address randomly assigned to an internet user) tells us 'clearly' that the same person used four different accounts moving around the USA just to tease some checkusers? --72.75.20.29 (talk) 21:51, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no point to argue here with people like Thatcher. He will block you - for sure after reading the above. Rjecina has some other supporters of her dirty business among adinistrators - Ricky and EyeSerene. I am preparing an article about holocaust denial and defamation of Einstein's name applied and 'elaborated' in the Ustashe and Template Holocaust articles - by the same Rjecina and company. Got some initial support from the Anti Defamation League people. I am going to post an initial version of the article on my user page before sending it to the Anti Defamation League - all comments are welcome.--I am Mario (talk) 22:52, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * See the subsection below. I have blocked Mario following this threat (and earlier ones).  The incivility would be enough but the repeated threats make it beyond the pale. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

User:I am Mario blocked
I've had enough of the legal threats from User:I am Mario. I have blocked him indefinitely following both here and here and the mess at Jimbo's talk page from last month, I've had enough of him. He was already blocked 48 hours for accusing everyone of being a Holocaust denier and he clearly has no interest in anything but insults. If he rescinds his threats and actually starts being civil (in retrospect, threatening Jimbo that you are going to go to newspapers claiming everyone is a Holocaust denier should have gotten him blocked). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:58, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Asking for outside views since I'm one of the multitudes that he's threaten to go public with, making me biased in a way. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Just from reading the above, good block. He needs to stop assuming everyone disbelieves in the Holocaust's happening - hell, I'm generally close-to-the-vest on Wiki, and even I generally believe the majority of the Wikipedia population (not all of it) acknowledges that the Holocaust happened. - Jéské   Couriano  ( v^_^v ) 21:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * He doesn't assume everyone disbelieves the Holocaust. Just those who disagree with his view about how Ricky81682 (talk) 00:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Blocked an IP that claimed to be his friend for 31 hours after he posted legal threats and screeds against Ricky. I suggest keeping an eye out for more, just to be safe. - Jéské   Couriano  ( v^_^v ) 21:11, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And the IP's got an unblock request up, but he's just reposting the bit that got him blocked: User talk:72.75.20.29. - Jéské  Couriano  ( v^_^v ) 21:17, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * And even though I probably shouldn't have, I denied it. His First Amendment arguments are groundless and I hope other admins would back me up on that. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:47, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Theserialcomma - Wikihounding
A bit of background: theserialcomma filed a checkuser on Ryan Holiday for sockpuppetry. Ryan Holiday said he would voluntarily close his account, and its been inactive for three months. On some of the articles he's edited, RyanHoliday provided a link to his blog in the external sources.

Recently, I noticed that theserialcomma has been combing through RyanHoliday's past edits and removing any instance where he linked to his blog. Here are three examples:. He's edit-warred over removing two of those:.

I know blogs are usually not considered a reliable source, and in this particular case present a COI, but the three blog entries in question seem credible (one is an interview with the translator of the book). Here are the blog entries RyanHoliday has linked to: Entrenched Players Dilemma, 4th Generation Warfare, and Mediations: Interview with Gregory Hays.

I posted on theserialcomma's talk page that I believed this to be a violation of WP:WIKIHOUND, and he thought I was misreading the policy. Since this couldn't be settled with simpler avenues, I figured I'd bring it here. Svernon19 (talk) 01:02, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What's wrong, did you not like the "simpler avenue" answer received from the {helpme} 30 minutes before you posted this ANI []? and your original threat was that you'd report me if i continued removing the blog. i haven't removed it since, but you still reported me. that seems a bit disingenuous to me. personal blogs are just not reliable sources in this case. sorry Theserialcomma (talk) 01:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * No, it's not that at all, I just didn't see the {help me}. I also think that this is a bit more thorough than the {help me} you posted. The way I saw it was that we had a disagreement over an issue, so I brought it here. Svernon19 (talk) 02:17, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

In my view, blogs are generally unreliable per policy but if it a blog has an interview with an individual, that's different. Usually, we are discussing blogs for what the authors of the blogs say. On the other hand, this can qualify as spam. Now, I understand (and perhaps even agree) with the removals at Meditations and Fourth generation warfare since they were just being used as external links and could possibly be spam. If there was something from the interview worth adding as a source (like it was being used at Entrenched Player's Dilemma), I think it's inappropriate to just remove it. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:12, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Spoke too soon. Upon review of the actual link here from Entrenched Player's Dilemma, it doesn't add anything and in fact doesn't even work as a source for the statement.  Then I say I agree with Theserialcomma, but I think further discussion really belongs on an article-by-article level, not generally. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We can use blogs in some circumstances if they are interviews? I didn't know that. 08:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)dougweller (talk)


 * The reason I brought this to the AN/I was not necessarily due to the removal of the external sources, but the method in which they are being removed. It appears that theserialcomma is going through all of RyanHoliday's past edits -- some of which are from over a year ago -- and reverting when appropriate. At best, it's not very constructive, and at worst, it's borderline obsessive. Maybe it's just me, but if I found out a user was combing through my edit history looking for inaccuracies, I would file him for Wikihounding. The only difference here is that the user is inactive, and therefore unable to defend his self. Svernon19 (talk) 11:11, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

it appears that you are wrong. i went to 'search' and typed 'ryanholiday.net' and that is how i found those articles. it's unimportant to me who added the ryanholiday.net blog as a source, but according to you, ryan holiday is the one who added all the links to ryanholiday.net. that's nice to know, but irrelevant to how i found the blogs. i have no idea why you'd assume that i was looking at ryan holiday's contribs, other than your gigantic failure to assume good faith and your passive aggressive attempt to call me obsessive based on false premises. please return when you are ready to assume good faith and cease with your passive aggressive personal attacks. bye. Theserialcomma (talk) 13:21, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If that's the case, then I'll back off. I was unaware that there was a way to use Wikipedia to search for sources. Svernon19 (talk) 19:29, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Looking for an admin who reads Japanese
At Deletion review/Log/2008 December 5, User:Akanemoto is requesting restoration of his user page, which was deleted on 49 different occasions at his own request, and eventually deleted and protected from re-creation due to his use of the page as a (Japanese-language) blog/webhost. In the last year, he has made no edits other than to request deletion review of his user page, which has been rejected three times so far in 2008. If there are any Japanese-reading admins willing to take a look at the page and see if the user has a legitimate reason to restore the page, I'd appreciate it. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * At this point, why bother allowing him to edit Wikipedia at all? Does he actively contribute or is all that he does on his user page?— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 07:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * He edited in articlespace about a year ago. Since then, he's only edits have to been at DRV to request undeletion.  I asked him what he's planning on doing here and if he doesn't respond, I feel like blocking him.  Cutting and pasting into Babel tells me he's just writing crap ("I create everything.", "I am all ideas and the human who understands sense of value." and I'm not going into his longer ones).  This is his LiveJournal or Twitter or something but it's not useful.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't speak Japanese but I will say that online/machine translations are notoriously inaccurate, especially with Asian languages it seems. While I highly doubt that whatever it is that he is so adamant about is actually worth keeping, it's probably good to keep in mind that it's likely not as bad as babel says it is. l'aquatique  ||  talk  09:48, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Google and Yahoo! translators have been doing fairly well with Japanese translations lately. The sentence structuring often needs work, but the meaning is rarely lost.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 10:07, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You might like to take a look at this thread from sometime ago concerning this user and numerous alternate accounts Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive125 --82.7.39.174 (talk) 17:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I just found a bunch of other related accounts thanks to this IP's posting, including who was editing his user page not more than a week ago. The usernames are all similar, and I'm going to block Akanemoto's account and see if we can get him blocked from Wikipedia for some time.— Ryūlóng  ( 竜龙 ) 21:40, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Lar has helped me find the following accounts, all of which did the same thing in the past few months.
 * All of these are on the same IP as and .— Ryūlóng  ( 竜龙 ) 22:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * All of these are on the same IP as and .— Ryūlóng  ( 竜龙 ) 22:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * All of these are on the same IP as and .— Ryūlóng  ( 竜龙 ) 22:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * All of these are on the same IP as and .— Ryūlóng  ( 竜龙 ) 22:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * All of these are on the same IP as and .— Ryūlóng  ( 竜龙 ) 22:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * All of these are on the same IP as and .— Ryūlóng  ( 竜龙 ) 22:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * All of these are on the same IP as and .— Ryūlóng  ( 竜龙 ) 22:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * All of these are on the same IP as and .— Ryūlóng  ( 竜龙 ) 22:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Citation bot
User:Citation bot has been applied to the Featured Article Candidate acid dissociation constant. The results are most unsatisfactory and a lot of work will be needed to repair the damage caused by this bot.
 * 1) When there were a number of co-authors the the reference now gives the first author and "et al." (11 times). This is absolutely unacceptable
 * 2) By turning book publisher names into links a bunch of invalid links have been created when the publisher does not have a WP page
 * 3) The same applies to journal names (at least 13 invalid links in all)
 * 4) Book chapter titles have been incorporated into the cite book template, inconsistently with page numbers
 * 5) Page ranges are written as 1 - 2, after we had laboriously changed all the minus signs to "ndash". It is not clear which symbol has been used.

The references and links had already been checked during the FAC process are were found to be satisfactory. There are more than 50 references which I shall now have to correct by hand. Petergans (talk) 08:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You should report it at User:Citation bot/bugs. I think that would be the most effective thing to do. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:39, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * might be a good opportunity to make the missing articles for publishers and journals. Could someone list them, and I'll work on them. Most scientifi publishers and most chemical journals are likely to e appropriate for articles ( or redirects if its a qy of name variation)DGG (talk) 08:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Erm, the only thing the citation bot has done is this. I can't quite see the problem. Could someone enlighten me? AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 10:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * AlasdairGreen is right; that single edit (the only edit from the bot in the last 500 edits to the article) doesn't involve any of the changes you note. Those changes were made by User:Headbomb, who has done extensive copy-editing to the article. Since you have already complained on his talk page (before you wrote this), it appears that you are aware of the issue; I don't see why you are squawking about the bot. I also note that you have blocked the bot from editing the page. What type of administrator action do you need, or are you simply venting?  Horologium  (talk) 11:40, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Also--and please smack me in the head if I am, in fact, displaying complete cluelessness--but couldn't you just go back to the last pre-(bot/Headbomb/whatever did the bad edits) edit and just choose "restore this version"? Am I missing something basic here?? GJC 20:33, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As noted above, none of the complaints listed by Petergans are related to the activity of Citation bot. For future reference, the most appropriate place to list bugs produced by the bot is on the bot's bug list / talk page, as suggested in the bot's edit summary, so that the operator (in this case myself) can deal with them directly.  Martin  (Smith609 – Talk)  22:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

removal of AFD template
Er, an established user removed an AFD template from an article with the summary; "Stop trying to delete this list"

Am I missing something here? Ryan 4314  (talk) 19:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I restored it and left a message about the possible outcomes of removing AFD notices on his talkpage. I don't think any admin action is really required unless he persists - everyone can make at least one mistake right? --Cameron Scott (talk) 19:21, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Yea of course, in fact it seems quite out of character, I worried he's account might've been hacked or something lol. Sorry to disturb you, but thanks for your help, I just prefer these things to come from admins in case I've missed out on some rule (i.e. I thought the AFD template might be incorrect as it's a "List" technically lol). Ryan 4314   (talk) 19:26, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Question
I recently tried editing from my IP and I got: "Editing from 62.24.251.240 (your account, IP address, or IP address range) has been disabled by Woody for the following reason(s): Editing by anonymous users from your Internet service provider is currently disabled. Wikipedia has erroneously been added to a UK website blacklist, and your ISP has decided to block your access to part of the site." Why is my IP blocked? Message from <b style="color:red;">XENU</b><sup style="color:gold;">complaints? leave me a message! 19:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Because of this Administrators' noticeboard/Major UK ISPs reduced to using 2 IP addresses. DuncanHill (talk) 20:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I tried viewing the article in question Virgin Killer and I got a 404 from your servers. Has Wikipedia removed the article in question, or has my ISP said "LOL NO"? Message from <b style="color:red;">XENU</b><sup style="color:gold;">complaints? leave me a message!  20:06, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The latter, basically. --Conti|✉ 20:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Very stupid on their end. Message from <b style="color:red;">XENU</b><sup style="color:gold;">complaints? leave me a message!  20:33, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Einsteindonut, again
A "JIDF" sockpuppet tried to force a link to off-wiki harassment and attempted outing of Wikipedia editors into Jewish Internet Defense Force. In this context I received an email from Einsteindonut. Now a "new" editor is edit warring on the talk page to remove the discussion (which included a checkuser report from Luna Santin). Could someone who is familiar with Einsteindonut please look at the situation and do whatever is necessary, possibly including an adjustment of Einsteindonut's block. (Why isn't he banned yet?) --Hans Adler (talk) 13:31, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There users are already defacto banned. Indef blocked and noone will contemplate unblocking them so under the current definition they are already banned. I'm blocking socks on sight now so you may as well add them to the banned list. Spartaz Humbug! 13:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There's only ten months left on einsteindonut's block. Unless someone wants to make it indef, then the ban would make a difference.--Peter cohen (talk) 14:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Right now, it's just the usual WP:TROLL problem from that source. Please do not feed. As the sockpuppets come and go, and updates to the JIDF web site say much the same thing as the sockpuppets, it's starting to look like "the JIDF" is really just one person's blog. --John Nagle (talk) 17:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Its now set at indef. Can someone tell me why we host this page? I seriously wonder whether they ate truly notable. Spartaz Humbug! 19:34, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It survived multiple requests for deletion. The organisation was featured in many international newspapers recently, including the FAZ, which is Germany's second largest newspaper and one of the most respected publications in the world.  It has also been the subject of scholarly journals and in Ha'aretz as well as the Jerusalem Post.  There have been many other news items recently about the same issues in which the JIDF is fighting, including a recent piece in the NY Times entitled "Google's Gatekeepers" (regarding YouTube).  Check out the "press" section of their site for more info.  If the JIDF is not notable, then neither many other articles on WP, either.  Nominate it for deletion if you don't think the organization is notable enough.  It seems to me that many editors here just don't like the JIDF's treatment of Wikipedia, do not like their right wing views, do not like what they try to do, do not like the fact that some people create sockpuppets in an effort to keep the article accurate, so they question the notability.  I highly doubt the JIDF cares if they are on Wikipedia.  They'd probably much rather have their people work on articles about Israel and the conflict in the middle east than the one article about them.  I don't think it's fair to smear the organization because of the behavior of a few sockpuppets who may or may not even be associated with it.  --Usslakecounty (talk) 20:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) It's still around because it survived AfD twice. See Articles_for_deletion/The_Jewish_Internet_Defense_Force. There were enough press reports last summer for some notability. Much less press attention since then.  We may in time conclude that it only had brief notability (WP:ONEVENT, or "fifteen minutes of fame") via another AfD, but there's no rush. Why feed the trolls? --John Nagle (talk) 20:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of blocking obvious socks, there's another. First contribs are coming here to speak with clear specific knowledge of our processes, specific procedures' results and so on. ThuranX (talk) 23:30, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Jpetersen46321
This is a little long and has a lot of parts, but here goes.

I first crossed paths with Mr. Petersen a little over a year ago when he was era style date-warring at Second Temple among others. His edit history shows a campaign of wholesale changes across many articles in entirely different areas of interest from BCE/CE to BC/AD. He disappeared (under that nick) at about the time of our disagreement. Today he came back to revert to his personally preferred era style, dishonestly characterizing the consensus version as vandalism (see edit summary). For good measure, he added a little disruption by reverting Quails from a redirect to a version that has not been used since 2002, calling the redirect that has existed unmolested for six years "NPOV commentary". His apparent motivation for doing this was the fact that I used the article as an example of a page that had been copy-pasted from Easton's Bible Dictionary in the early days of Wikipedia whilst trying to explain to him why his date-warring was against policy.

In an unrelated issue, he also uploaded an image of Phil Goss after the image tagging bot tagged the image as not having copyright info, he claiming that the image is "Copyright John Bloomer 2008", despite the fact that the image is obviously a screen capture from a broadcast in which Mr. Goss participated, in which case the copyright belongs to the network producing the broadcast, not Mr. Bloomer (whoever he is). Interestingly, Mr. Petersen claimed this edit to the Phil Goss talk page, made by an IP who stated not that he had a proper copyright, but that he believes the image to be in the public domain. Incidentally that IP (obviously Mr. Petersen) also managed a little era-warring today. I think the image should be speedily deleted, since it is apparent that nothing Mr. Petersen says can be taken on trust.

It may also be useful to compare this sockpuppetry case.

Mr. Petersen's strategy seems to be to drop in once every ten months or so, leave a few droppings for the grownups to clean up, then depart. He obviously isn't here to help the project. If I'd filed a vandal report, I'm sure it would have been considered stale, and I'm sure it's taken me longer to post this than it took him to engage in his disruption, which is, I suppose, how he gets his satisfaction. The only remedy that seems like it would have any effect is an indefblock, but that would probably be considered too harsh under the circumstances.

In any event, the doubtful image should certainly go. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 01:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Follow-up to archived thread (Wikipedia, whereto now, or the psychosomatic mafia)
Just a brief note following up an archived thread which I was reading and inadvertently responded to. I'll repeat here what I said there: "'WLU has stated above that 'Virtually all admins that have tried to help Guido have eventually turned away', and then quotes from my talk page and Guido's responses to my replies. I can confirm that I did try to help Guido, and it seems to have resulted in abject failure, for which I apologise. There was another response that Guido made as well (concerning a little matter that has been taking up a lot of my time recently), but that is neither here nor there, as I knew it was part and parcel of getting involved the way I did. The point I want to make here is that I somehow missed the post Guido made to his user page until recently, and was rather shocked by it. As WLU rightly notes, I had already been rebuffed by Guido and I was already stepping away from this, and Guido's post to his user page has only confirmed that for me. Some people say I give people too many chances, but I do have a breaking point and it has been reached in this case. I'm not going to support any block (as I think Guido's post is effectively a 'departure essay'), but if he returns then the 'breaching experiment' considerations would come into play and I wouldn't be able to defend Guido in any shape or form simply because there is no way of knowing whether or not he is starting another 'experiment'. If anyone feels that there is a danger of Guido conducting similar experiments in future with this or other accounts, and that this would be disruptive, a community ban may be needed.' Carcharoth (talk) 02:16, 7 December 2008 (UTC)" The full, archived thread, including my late post, is here. Carcharoth (talk) 02:26, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Sennen goroshi
Sennen goroshi seems to think hes free to settle old scores by barging into totally unrelated arguments tohim, because he is wikistalking and watching both Kuebie and Caspian blue. i have problems with some of USer:Kuebie's edits, byt Sennen goroshi"s actions are totally unnacceptable.Julius Ceasarus From Primus (talk) 16:40, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * he has also threatened to report caspian blue and kuebie for violations totally unrelated to him, and he should be given a firm warning or a block for stalking both kuebie and caspian blue.

Julius Ceasarus From Primus (talk) 16:42, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You need Dispute resolution. There doesn't seem to be any blockable conduct. Stifle (talk) 19:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the notice and your acknowledgment of 's behaviors, Julius Ceasarus From Primus. But one thing to be correct, he threatened me and Kuebie with false accusation which constitute WP:Harassment. When I saw edit warring on Koreans, I gave warnings to a newbie who inserted dubious contents repeatedly and violated 3RR regardless of my warning. I don't see what violation I did for the matter, but Sennen goroshi followed me and then threaten me to report me for causing a drama and even encouraged the violator to send him an email to attack me. I also don't see anything uncivil from Kuebie's comment. I believe those false allegations and intimidation by Sennen goroshi are blockable offenses and his report here is a long overdue given his history.

ANI#Personal information incident (reported on Aug.4.2007) He came Wikipedia to WP:OUT personal information on his real-life enemy,. Since then, his disruptions have kept going on and many files on him were useless, so proper sanction should be appropriate to the user at this time. He has never created any single article, but has blanked out properly cited relevant info as falesly labeling them as "POV", "OR" being himself NPOV. These practices constitutes gaming the system too. When edit wars on Koreans between Kuebie and an in-dept Wiki-knowledge newbie, occurred for the newbie's insertion of dubious material including WP:Original research as he admitted, I gave warnings to both users who later violated 3RR altogether, but the newbie accused me of meatpuppet to evade his 3RR violation. Given his disruption and incivility, I reported both of them to AN3, but Sennen appeared there and gave an absurd threat and even suggested the 3RR violator to email him to plot against me. Then he condoned the newbie's rude comments, but gave bogus warnings regarding civility to Kuebie because Kuebie conveyed annoyance like "wah wah".
 * WP:HARASSMENT

The below articles are diffs showing that Sennen goroshi has been wikistalking me and Kuebie. He never had edited the articles before, then just blindly reverts edits by me or Kuebie without any discussion. Without looking into contents, he has even sided sockpuppeters like, to whom other editors rebuked their disruptive edits just because his preys (me and Kuebie) edit. Talk:South_Korea/Archive_2. He certainly knows of the concept of stalking, and his erroneous edits were contested, he accused his opponents of wikistalking all of which were totally uncalled for.
 * WP:Wikistalking

When asked a comment from users who have constructively edited Korean cuisine, Sennen who has caused nothing but troubles to the article falsely accused of WP:CANVASSing and gave him this racist insult .[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Melonbarmonster2&diff=prev&oldid=256223650 The practice of eating dog meat is inhumane and barbaric, it is interesting in the same way that horror movies are interesting. It is also interesting when people from nations that eat dog meat get offended and take extreme nationalistic pride in the fact that they eat dogs.] However, his canvassing to someone for help is also contradictory.
 * WP:TROLLING.


 * WP:INCIVILITY
 * He was recently blocked for his uncivil comment like "bullshit", harassment to editors and edit wars on Korean cuisine. After tried to mitigate the insulting title,, Sennen goroshi lectured him even though he knew his comment was clearly offensive. and received an admins' warnings. On contradictory to his lecture, he redacted other' titling.


 * This disruptive behavioral pattern can not be done with a common dispute resolution as long as he would not acknowledge his wrongdoings. I have tried to WP:AGF on him regardless his long-term disruptive behaviors against me, as not reporting his blatant WP:3RR violation, and not authorizing a WP:RFC on his behavior. But I believe it is time to do something on him. Enough is enough.--Caspian blue 01:24, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I have blocked for one week due to incivility, wikistalking, and harassment. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 05:26, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Without commenting on any of the merits of complaints raised by either side, I will again say that it is high time that an RFArb or RFC/U be filed regarding Caspian Blue. There's been, unless I'm mistaken, at least a post or two every week for the last several either initiated by him or regarding him. I am not saying that he has necessarily done anything wrong. But this keeps going on and on and on and on. Let's find a resolution to it. // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #6D351A;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#6D351A;">  07:27, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The trouble is that Caspian blue has been the object of a relentless and quite sophisticated wikistalking campaign (not necessarily by Sennen goroshi, but a banned user with lots of sock- and meatpuppets), so an RfC/U would most likely only erupt in more disruption. I'd really wish our friend began to understand that they are shooting themselves in the foot: as long as they keep up their harassment, administrators will rightly react with a protection reflex to everything coming up about Caspian, and whatever real problems there may be with Caspian's editing will be all the less likely to be actually handled. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:34, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm aware of the history, but I trust you see where I'm coming from. // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #082567;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#082567;">  07:36, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd like to add that after a short glance at Caspian's edits in this particular dispute, I see nothing wrong outside of some minor canvassing. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 07:41, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Like I said, I'm not necessarily saying that CB has done anything wrong (I haven't delved into his edit history to have an opinion one way or the other). I'm aware of the stalking issue but it seems as though the problems--whether real or imaginary--are more wide-ranging, and I think the site would benefit from a focused ray of sunshine, rather than 1-2 posts per week. RFArb would be better for that, as scrutiny would come on everyone involved in a much more concentrated fashion than an RFC/U. That's all. // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #00009C;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#00009C;">  07:45, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Then, why do you suggest that that should be under my name even though you've seen me suffering harassment campaign? Roux, you've been through an ArbCom restriction, so you seem to want others go to it (per your comments to others at ANI). FYI, this report is even filed by a third party with whom I ever never contacted and seems to have an opposite point of view in politics). If there should be filed for ArbCom, the title should be Japan-Korea related articles like Macedonia subjects. --Caspian blue 07:50, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You have me confused with someone else. I have never been involved with any ArbCom decision, whether as a commenter, party, or subject to sanctions. The only reason I said 'under your name' is because your name is the one that pops up all the time. Nothing more. The only reason I suggest ArbCom is because the attention of an ArbCom case shines a 50kW searchlight onto the subject and shows all the issues. Nothing more. I understand the stalking issue, and I sympathise. As I said, however, my impression has been that this is a wider issue than just stalkers. That's all. // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #4B0082;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#4B0082;">  07:55, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the confusion, but you've always suggested others to go to ArbCom which takes at least 2 or 3 months. You were very upset at a user for a tiny thing two days ago which I could not find any wrong, but your suggestion sounds very drastic and only encourages sockpuppetrs/SPAs booming. As I say, if ArbCom should be filed, I believe "Japan-Korea disputes and harassment issues" are more suitable.--Caspian blue 08:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

He asked me to post this for him:
 * reply by Sennen

<i>1. Civility - I made one comment on a users talk page in a semi-sandbox section that they made regarding dog meat, that I thought it was inhumane and that some of the edits are based on nationalistic motives. Yes this was a personal comment, but it was certainly not racist nor directed at anyone in particular. If you blocked every who ever made a comment conveying their personal opinion on a users talk page, wikipedia would have about 3 editors left.

Also I posted "LOL that made me laugh" on another users page, I really don't see any problem with that.

2. Harassment/Stalking - as I outlined in my unblock request, I have checked the edits of other editors and reverted when I saw the need. These are not random editors, these are editors who have brought themselves to my attention with their patterns of what I consider to be flawed edits. This is how wikipedia works, you make a dodgy edit, people revert you, check your edit history and see what other dodgy edits you have made, taking action when needed.

In short, I see no reason whatsoever for me deserving a one week block for a personal comment, a LOL and checking the edits of users who got my attention by their editing patterns.

my unblock request can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sennen_goroshi#Blocked_2

Sennen goroshi (talk) 08:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC)</i>

--Ice Cold Beer (talk) 09:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Barangay redirects
has just decided to go around to barangay articles and redirect them to their parent cities. There is no consensus for these redirects. As a matter of fact, some have them have survived afd's with a consensus to keep. I placed a message on Seav's talkpage requesting that he not redirect any articles unless he gains a consensus for such action. I also began reverting his redirects to the previous article status. He again redirected the articles so I am bringing this issue here. I propose that Seav be blocked. We can't have editors that think they can go around deleting a large number of articles articles and making them redirects without a consensus. Being bold only goes so far. -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 18:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm reverting back only some of them that you have reverted, most unreferenced and has had no expansion for several months now. Please don't think that there's a blanket global consensus for retaining every barangay article: some of them survive AfD, others have been closed as redirects, and others have been deleted: As a compromise, I will not touch those that have survived AfD and will be bold in redirecting others that are little more than unreferenced stubs. --seav (talk) 19:04, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please stop removing huge chunks of content without a consensus to do so. This is another article deletion that an afd consensus decided to Keep. Also, please discontinue your disingenuous edit summaries. You're not "merging" anything; all you're doing is redirecting. -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 21:05, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please look at the history of the related articles first before accusing me of deleting info from Salangbato. See this for the merge, which I did before you reverted me that second time. And now see this talk page note so that it's all explained better. --seav (talk) 21:16, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * To clarify when I said "I will not touch those that have survived AfD", it means that I won't do a plain redirect (which removes info, contrary to AfD) and instead try to merge it, only if the info is small enough to be merged. --seav (talk) 21:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The whole story is in Wikipedia_talk:Tambayan_Philippines/Archive15. Currently there are no consensus to keep brgy articles and seav is only following what the closure suggested. Keep votes for brgy afd usually resort to WP:OSE and WP:PAPER. I beleive that brewcrewer is only afraid of WP:BIAS when none if us takes offence.-- Lenticel ( talk ) 23:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The linked discussion is further evidence of the problem we have ourselves here. It's an agreement between three deletionist editors to redirect the articles because "an afd would attract too much attention" and would result in a Keep. Indeed, they are correct. The overall consensus at Wikipedia that geographic locations like neighborhoods are inherently notable. -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 00:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please see the archives linked in that thread. A reoccurring discussion from 2005 (long before I was here) by different editors is hardly a deletionist conspiracy.-- Lenticel ( talk ) 00:12, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Now I'm offended. First you're falsely accusing me of using "disingenuous edit summaries" and redirecting instead of merging, when merging is what I have been doing ever since you put up this AN/I thread. Second, you're accusing me of being a deletionist (which, I must note, is not in itself a bad thing) when there's nothing in my overall contributions that point to me being a deletionist. You're just using the "deletionist" label as a drama mechanism. --seav (talk) 04:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

(indent) allow me to clear things up regarding the afd's. We were not against putting articles in afd. We're against mass afd's since the original nomination explanation is lost from the resurgence of a lot inclusionists which only reacted to the unnatural increase in the number of nominated afds. This occurrence can be seen in the nominations of Gavin.Collins, Pilotbob and TTN to name a few and I'm pretty sure that rather than getting consensus, it only generated drama, lots of it. I'm open to having brgy. afd's but I want it fair and square with only WP:N, WP:RS and WP:V. So far brewcrewer has not risen for the challenge and still resort to WP:OSE's-- Lenticel ( talk ) 00:22, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * This is not the place for a discussion of the notability of the barangays. The correct forum is afd or the articles talk pages. If you think my arguments amounts to an OSE, that's just too bad. Your opinion regarding my arguments are not a valid basis for the avoidance of a discussion and making unilateral notability determinations. Getting rid of all these articles by flying under the radar and redirecting them is wrong. You guys are desperately trying to avoid an afd by redirecting all the barangays you deem to be unnotable. However, I do understand. Rarely do barangay discussions result in the deletion of barangay article under discussion. This redirect trick is the only way this article can be gotten rid of without anybody noticing. Sorry guys, but I'm on duty. -- brew  crewer  (yada, yada) 01:43, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, whenever barangays are AfD'd, there's no consensus to either keep or delete. You're assuming too much when you say "rarely". Yes, this is not the proper venue to discuss the notability/inclusion/deletion of a broad class of articles, this is the venue you chose to discuss my actions you find so objectionable. I've actually stopped my plain redirections and am doing proper merges already, which should satisfy almost all people. Yet, you still object to my actions, particularly in the case of Salangbato for some stubborn reason I can't comprehend. Take note that the AfD says keep not keep and DON'T MERGE. --seav (talk) 04:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * We are dealing with some 30 redirects and its hard to be on top of each one. Yes, apparently Salangbato had been merged. But we are dealing with a whole bunch of other barangays that are just plain redirects. I am not condoning the merges. I still think that they should only be merged if there is a consensus to do so. But my comment earlier was not entirely true. There is atleast one proper merge. I apologize. -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 04:31, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I accept your apology. For the record, there is no consensus to merge and there is no consensus either not to merge. Because there's no such consensus (to merge or not to merge), I don't think I'm wrong for merging stub articles into parent articles. Can we consider this AN/I thread closed and concentrate on discussing individual articles on their talk pages? --seav (talk) 05:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Protection of User talk:EagleScout18
Following User:EagleScout18's comments from just earlier, he got blocked. I have been having discussions with him at User talk:EagleScout18 and after having just denied his last unblocked request, I protected his talk page for a week per his request. This is probably not anywhere policy but I honestly was about to denied his request and protect if he wouldn't stop. This at least gives him a week off. Given User:Grsz11's comment here, I thought I'd mention it here. If anyone else wants to remove the protection (I'm not sure what, to continue discussions with him?), feel free to. As I told Grsz here, maybe I'm naive but I still think there's a remote chance he could be useful on other topics. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:47, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks like textbook IAR to me. Yeah, he's soapboxing a bit, but no biggie. In a roundabout way, he's taking the right way out in some sense: he knows he's heading in the wrong direction, he needs the week off, and protecting the page stops the first and guarantees the second. Good job all around. // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #36454F;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#36454F;">  06:55, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * When blocked users use their talk page to continue debates rather than to properly request unblocks, protecting the page is a normal option. It's a good idea in this case, even if the blockee himself asked for the protection. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:23, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Zahd, WP:UP
I wouldn't mind if at least one other uninvolved person took at this. I've protected User:Zahd for 24h because Zahd has passed 3RR on said page (as it's his userpage, I figured blocking would not be productive). Specifically, this was his last edit. Now, he is claiming that it's OK because he commented the worst parts out. I kind of, uh, disagree. Also, see Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive494. This disruptive editing is getting mildly annoying. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 05:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The only thing left besides the "hello" on my userpage was the short, terse statement "There is a God." Sorry, but I fail to see how this violates any reasonable concept of rationality, decency, or personal boundary to express a concept in four words; as awful, depressing, and ominous though those words may be. -Zahd (talk) 06:03, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It violates the neutral point of view rule. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:14, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's erm, my user page. WP:UP doesn't seem to support Crustacean in this notion that even "there is a God" should be viewed as offensive enough to blank. -Zahd (talk) 06:16, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Ummm, that was a joke, right? You forgot your smiley. Aunt Entropy (talk) 03:16, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Full disclosure, Zahd and I both edit the abortion article. That out of the way, Zahd probably should be slapped with a long term block in hopes that (s)he'll either get bored or learn to be a more productive editor. Zahd and Wikipedia are at cross purposes. Wikipedia informs its readers about a wide variety of topics (tries to anyway), Zahd wishes to sermonize on abortion and the right to life.--Tznkai (talk) 06:21, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not an inherently offensive expression by itself. It's the way he's using it that's the problem - i.e. to "make a point", and as a direct connection with his contentious editing history. He's apparently also under the mistaken impression that he "owns" his user page. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:25, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not "sermonizing" to be pithy and or exact, or to represent an under-represented side in the course of balancing articles in accord with concepts that people actually use. For example the word "murder" isn't even once mentioned in the abortion article, even though its the actual term my side uses to refer to abortion. It's absence is so because there's a sickening kind of bias going on here. NPOV might be something people need to read up on again. So, is the problem is that my editing is POV, or that the POV I openly state allegiance to does not need representation? I am finding only bias and disruption in my critics. -Zahd (talk) 06:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Seems quite pointy to me. I don't really care what goes onto his user page, if he wants to announce his POV and let everyone know he's here to push that way and to check his edits, it doesn't matter much. If he's crosses the line, he'll get booted. However, his edits seem to be pushing the boundaries to try and cause disruption. Am I forgetting something, or is this post a reedit of something that was deleted? He seems determined to get his licks in. Dayewalker (talk) 06:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What you seek, you find, Zahd.--Tznkai (talk) 06:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ... huh. Didn't even see that subpage. Can an uninvolved administrator delete or userify that?--Tznkai (talk)
 * I've marked it for speedy deletion - or at least I think I have, as I've never marked something for speedy deletion before. I think that's supposed to trigger it to show up on a list somewhere, and then an admin can decide its merits, so to speak. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Deleted. That is the second time, too. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 07:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Danke. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Murder is the unlawful taking of human life. Abortion (under some conditions) is lawful, therefore is not murder. Same goes for capital punishment and warfare. I happen to oppose all three, and I might want to label all three as murder. But the law rules. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Murder is exactly that, and you are right in that "the law" rules. But the reason abortion is called murder is that it is "unlawful" according to God's law. Man can do what he wants only to find out later that God disapproves. Now of course God may have no place in your life, but for the majority of the world that holds certain beliefs, His law is quite relevant. To repeat the point, it represents an unfortunate and despicable kind of bias that editors here remove that terminology from an article. That's not to say that the article should say "this equals that," but to simply report "these people say this is that." It's NPOV to attribute it. Yet that concept is still being removed by editors pushing their point of view. They just don't like it, because it goes contrary to their views, and nor do they like the simple words "there is a God" even on someone's own userpage.. -Zahd (talk) 07:01, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

(OD)Actually from recent memory, it seemed like your response to having your edits reverted was to post your personal beliefs on your talk page, which apparently most editors took as your rebuttal and dismissal of their edits based on your own POV. Dayewalker (talk) 07:06, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * They can 'take it' anyway they want to, as long as they don't in their quest to promote their atheism, go out of their way such as to stomp on an opinion or fact on my own userpage. They would not do so if they were not in fact acting out of bias, connected to their biased dislike of my editing. -Zahd (talk) 07:14, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:USER. You don't own your userpage. It's not a blog. Furthermore, disagreeing with your POV is not pushing atheistic values, and assuming anyone who finds fault with your edits is biased isn't a really good way to start around here. Dayewalker (talk) 07:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I have read WP:USER. It still is not apparent how the simple statement "there is a God" is somehow improper, such that people have to go out of their way to abort it. -Zahd (talk) 07:23, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Because you're trying to make a point, which is against policy. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:28, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As well, you're presenting it as fact instead of belief (as noted below), and further than that you were also including the two other obviously unacceptable statements, even if they were commented it. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 07:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * American law is the supreme law of the land. Religious doctrine is not. The statement "there is a god" is merely an opinion, not a fact. "I think there is a god" is a fact. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:09, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "In God we Trust??" Some Wikipedians, one or two, don't actually live under "American law" and thus might be less interested in American law, and more interested in UN law or even higher law. -Zahd (talk) 07:12, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * AN/I =/= place to argue about God or abortion.--Tznkai (talk) 07:14, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "In God we trust - all others pay cash". >:) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:23, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see how the userpage edit was disrupting Wikipedia. This offtopic-leaning discussion here seems more disruptive to me than the userpage, but perhaps that's just me. Please, everybody, relax, policing userspace tends to inflame the situation, and is rarely productive. Kusma (talk) 07:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've already stated why I feel it was, and the discussion is really only mildly off-topic. This user has attempted to provoke reaction with his userpage on multiple occasions, and it's getting tiresome. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 07:44, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (e/c)The conversation has certainly devolved into this off topic nonsense argument about God's existence, but the userspace edits were disruptive, needlessly confrontational for an account working exclusively in an already controversial article. Furthermore Zahds insistence that good faith edits are done because of offense to assumed atheism is problematic, and potentially insulting to any of those editors are not athiests themselves.--Tznkai (talk) 07:47, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There are many pages that contain references to the editors' religious beliefs. That's not the issue. It's the in-your-face that's the issue. It's a bit like a child who's told not to touch someone else, so they stand as close as they can to the one they're told not to touch, and proclaim innocence. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:49, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * In my personal opinion, we are supposed to be working on an encyclopedia here. If he wants to write offensive nonsense on his userpage, I don't care.  List it for MFD or something and get it deleted in total.  If he calls out a specific user or is otherwise generally disruptive with it, then that's different.  All I want to know is 'how is he on the encyclopedia?'  Frankly, if this section is typical, I'd say the drama he's creating isn't worth whatever good he's doing.  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:26, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth, I suggested that Zahd try a good, old-fashioned, modest userbox instead of the polemic, and even helpfully gave him a link to the "political" userbox gallery--but he ignored my advice. The fact that he blatantly ignored five editors at User_talk:Zahd (let alone violated WP:3RR) by reinstating the polemic strikes me as borderline uncivil. Cosmic Latte (talk) 10:24, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, I don't see what the difference is if I say "there is a God" which is all I left on that page (and yet you somehow take offense), and a userbox which says the same thing. If formatting is the issue, I can put it in a nice little box for you. Finally, I'm glad to see people defending my ability to say something personal on my userpage "If he wants to write offensive nonsense on his userpage, I don't care," even if they are referring to a statement like "there is a God" as "offensive nonsense." Kuzma offered some common sense: "I don't see how the userpage edit was disrupting Wikipedia," which is correct. My statement on my userpage "there is a God" isn't so much "disruptive" as it is offensive to people who find God to be offensive. -Zahd (talk) 19:16, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The funny thing is that the argument against my edits has changed dramatically. First it was "extensive discussion not related to Wikipedia," which it wasnt. Then it was "Extensive personal opinions on matters unrelated to Wikipedia" which it wasnt, as these were brief statements. Then it was "polemical statements unrelated to Wikipedia; in particular, statements attacking or vilifying groups of editors or persons" which it wasn't as "there is a God" isnt actually attacking anyone. Even the more "offensive" statement which I removed "choose life or eat death" wasnt attacking anyone, as the policy stipulates. The final argument, promoted by Baseball (above) is that the phrase "there is a God" is offensive or disruptive because of how it is phrased as a fact, instead of as an opinion. This criteria isnt actually mentioned on WP:USER, and well, that wraps up my summary of the critics. -Zahd (talk) 19:26, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Lets not pretend "there is a God" is the part that was causing the problem, the rest of the comment, about God hating abortion and eating death is what took a simple statement of belief " [I believe] There is a God to an anti-abortion polemic.--Tznkai (talk) 19:28, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, but I removed that other stuff did I not? -Zahd (talk) 19:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If you simply repost your userpage without the part that you've commented out, I'm sure no one will give a damn and this will fade away. But you've chosen to include that part regardless, even if it's hidden away. For what reason? And again, you don't own your userpage, and other editors can edit it if they take exception to it; if you decide to exceed 3RR, it's treated like any other 3RR violation. (And, as I asked before, and is not directly related to why I protected the page: would someone take issue if an atheist added "there is no God" to their userpage?) -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 19:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * CC wrote: "But you've chosen to include that part regardless, even if it's hidden away." If its "hidden away" from everyone's sight, why make an issue of it? And again, you don't own your userpage OWN is policy dealing with articles, not userpages. In fact its first statement "Don't sign what you don't own, makes it clear: We own comments on talk pages, and anything on our userpages is implicitly understood to be our own. "Other editors can edit it if they take exception to it" Ive explained how people have given varied and changing reasons cited from WP:USER, and how each one is false. "tak[ing] exception" to what's on my userpage isnt on WP:USER. I would not "take offense" if an atheist stated that. I would of course then regard them as an atheist, for what that's worth.-Zahd (talk) 20:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

(EC/OD)I think we've all gotten off track here, Zahd's comments about believing in God aren't the problem. Making it out to be so is missing the point. I doubt anyone would have even noticed if that were the only concern, as lots of wikipedia users have similar infoboxes. The problem is that you posted your belief as a statement to your POV on abortion, which you freely admit above you have. That's the part people seem to find pointy. Dayewalker (talk) 19:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Its unfortunate that stating my position openly is somehow considered to be a problem. It does'nt affect how I apply NPOV in editing articles. The issue was that people took offense at a concept of God, whether that view is expressed on my userpage, or stated in article talk, to remind people there is actually another side to abortion other than "do you want fries with that?"-Zahd (talk) 19:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, your belief in God is not the issue. ANI isn't the place for that debate. Dayewalker (talk) 19:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, you said "The problem is that you posted your belief as a statement to your POV on abortion, which you freely admit above you have." I took this to mean you are citicizing my openness, and are suggesting that closeted people are more successful on Wikipedia. I suggest closetedness serves the pro-abortion point of view, and that sunlight as always remains the best disinfectant. -Zahd (talk) 20:04, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, we're not arguing the merits of your POV. Wikipedia is not the place for this. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 20:11, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, but you are. You are saying that the statement "there is a God" should be taken as an offense.-Zahd (talk) 20:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Even if it should, that's not an argument on the merits of the statement, but on its potential offensiveness. That is also not what I was responding to; I was responding to your comment (note how threading typically works in discussions). I will now cease communication with you through this thread, as it is clear that you are attempting to provoke reaction. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 21:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (e/c)Zahd, you've accused every editor you've come into content conflict with on Abortion of being Pro-choice partisan hacks (feel free to correct me if I've overstated) Your POV and displaying your POV has most definitely affected your ability to edit, especially in your ability to get along with other editors and form consensus.--Tznkai (talk) 19:45, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Am I supposed to nod in agreement with every abortionist I run into on Wikipedia?-Zahd (talk) 20:04, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * No one cares about what your abortion position is on the wikipedia, and you shouldn't care about the positions of others may be. User space is supposed to be a simple, creative space to fill in information about yourself, as long as it doesn't become a soapbox from which to preach to the unwashed masses, as this clearly was.  WP:UP is pretty clear here. Tarc (talk) 20:10, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Not every pro-choice person is an "abortionist", Zahd! That's the kind of language and attitude that is the problem here. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  20:29, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, with the misinterpretations. I did not use "abortionist" in the sense you are reading it. Read it again. -Zahd (talk) 20:36, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

(OD)If I may, I seriously doubt this is going to get anywhere. Zahd seems committed to making this discussion about his belief in God, and not about his admitted POV. His talk page has been protected, so the offending comments are gone. This seems like a good place to stop, and not keep the endless debate going. Dayewalker (talk) 20:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There is a God. -Zahd (talk) 21:16, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

"There is a God" itself can stay. The rest needs to go. — kur  ykh   21:28, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Although it would be interesting to see, on his user page, some proof of that assertion. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 23:44, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * How about if I just pray for you instead; "proof" requires faithlessness. You just might be someone who needs it. -Zahd (talk) 02:34, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ignoring the religious implications, there is no restriction that only empirical facts may be shown on our user pages. It only restricts inappropriate and/or inflammatory content. — kur  ykh   10:42, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Let him put up whatever he wants, list his page for MFD and then block him if he edit wars to put it back. Otherwise, go do something else as he's probably more amused by this game than anything doing in article space. I frankly hate the idea that other editors can just go and say "ok, you can keep this language but not this one" on someone's user page. Someone could come by and tell me that I shouldn't have this section on my page but it may be offensive to the people I disagreed with, but that doesn't make it any less legitimate. If this doesn't stop, I'm going to archive this section under IAR or something. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:50, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

There is a God, just like there is a Santa Claus: purely in the imagination of children and those who hold on to childish beliefs. Spotfixer (talk) 01:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's true that some people need there to not be a God, because, well... He's bringing an ass-whooping with Him. -Zahd (talk) 02:31, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * While you're praying for me, I'll be praying for you also. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 05:04, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * :) -Zahd (talk) 18:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * When God gets a user page, he can feel free to announce his own existence on it. Until then, however, the problem with a statement like "there is a God" is that it is incompatible with statements such as "there is no God" and "there are twenty gods," either of which other editors may believe to be true. But the statement, "I believe there is a God" is perfectly compatible with "you believe there is no god" and "he believes there are twenty gods." It's fine to personalize your page within reason, but the statements that Zahd was adding, in the way he phrased them, are divisive and run counter to the communal and cooperative atmosphere of Wikipedia. They also do not communicate anything to the effect of, "I am here to help write a balanced, NPOV encyclopedia." Cosmic Latte (talk) 13:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If God started editing Wikipedia, he'd be booted for WP:POINT, WP:V, and WP:RS. Of course he could just superuser the whole thing and take it over, but that's not going to happen. And while we're at it, I still can't find in WP:USER where it says that a statement on one's user page must be phrased in the opinion sense, rather than in the factual sense. In fact I'm sure you are taking a policy we use for articles, and misapplying it to user pages. Yes, I'm certain that must be it; you're misquoting the very policy you've insisted that I read. It's time to unprotect my userpage, as there's no valid or justifiable reason for it to remain locked. Fear of what I may write there, notwithstanding. -Zahd (talk) 18:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uh, the userpage was only protected for 24 hours... -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 18:49, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Secondly, let me quote this for you, taken directly from WP:UP:


 * 1) A weblog recording your non-Wikipedia activities
 * 2) Extensive discussion not related to Wikipedia
 * 3) Excessive personal information (more than a couple of pages) unrelated to Wikipedia
 * 4) Extensive personal opinions on matters unrelated to Wikipedia, wiki philosophy, collaboration, free content, the Creative Commons, etc.
 * 5) Personal information of other persons without their consent
 * 6) Advertising or promotion of a business or organization unrelated to Wikipedia (such as purely commercial sites or referral links)
 * 7) Extensive self-promotional material that is unrelated to your activities as a Wikipedian
 * 8) Other non-encyclopedic related material
 * 9)  Polemical statements unrelated to Wikipedia; in particular, statements attacking or vilifying groups of editors or persons are generally considered divisive and removed, and reintroducing them is often considered disruptive.
 * 10) Material that can be viewed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws. The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided the dispute resolution process is started in a timely manner.  Users should not maintain in public view negative information on others without very good reason.
 * 11) Games, roleplaying sessions, and other things pertaining to "entertainment" rather than "writing an encyclopedia", particularly if they involve people who are not active participants in the project. (cite as WP:UP) (compare Category:Wikipedia games and Category:Wikipedia Word Association.)
 * 12) Communications with people uninvolved with the project or related work
 * 13) Images which you are not free to use (usually fair use images; see below)
 * 14) Categories and templates intended for other usage, in particular those for articles and guidelines


 * I suggest you read the one that is bold and italicized, it's the one you keep failing to read. If you continue to edit war over something that is blatantly against policy, as noted above, I don't think we'll have to deal with you any much longer(*wink, wink*).—  Dæ dαlus <sup style="color:green;">Contribs  10:38, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

JIDF Talk Page Being Used for General Discussion
Seems like many editors (Peter cohen, Hans Adler) and others are using the JIDF Talk Page for general discussion about the JIDF, various sockpuppet cases, and even sharing private emails there. Strange to see such behavior among well-established editors. At the top of the page, there is a banner announcing that the area is not a forum and that all discussion should be limited to actual improvement of the article. Also of interest is the fact that Peter cohen is on the JIDF's "attack page" --HD90853 (talk) 13:33, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * - sock blocked Spartaz Humbug! 13:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * See above post by Hans Adler. I have already reported this user as a sockpuppet of ED.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:36, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that. Now if you could please stop using the JIDF Talk Page for general discussion (as it is not a forum), it would be appreciated.--HD90853 (talk) 13:46, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It would be even nicer if you and your mates stopped sending me (and other editors) harassing emails, the mention of which you were trying to remove from the article talk page. Something, surely, which editors need to be aware of.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:50, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm shocked at the size of the JIDF article, especially when compared to the paltry size of the article on the respectable HonestReporting.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 12:30, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

A dissatisfied user's complaint
Note: Malcolm has been blocked for 1 week for disruptive behavior and continuously violating WP:IDHT. Within an hour and a half of closing the discussion, I received this message on my talk page. --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 19:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I am now going to do some complaining about my 72hr block by Gwen Gale, which was overturned on review. The story is this:

Gwen Gale, gave me a warning for refactoring a comment made by PalestineRemembered on the VillagePump(policy). As far as I knew, the only thing I had done was change a subheading into regular text that was outdented, the reason being that I did not want it to appear that a thread I had introduced had ended at that point. When I denied refactoring, Gwen Gale blocked me for 72hrs.

There are a number of problematic factors in the block:
 * 1) Gwen Gale did not explain to me what was missing; and, since I had not intentionally removed any content, and thought I had not, it was normal for me to deny the accusation.
 * 2) She went from a warning to a block without my having done anything. Instead of explaining what was missing from PalestineRemembered's edit, so that I could correct it, she assumed bad faith and blocked me.
 * 3) She said that the block was necessary because she "saw a risk of ongoing disruption to the project" ; although as can be seen from the VillagePump thread there had been no complaints about disruption from anyone
 * 4) Gwen Gale has edited against me on issues involving Israel/Palestine, so her intervening for PalestineRemembered by blocking me seems particularly problematic.
 * 5) Even if I had refactored PalestineRemembered's edit, since that edit was completely off the topic of the thread, and since there is no particular WP rule against refactoring, there was no grounds for that block any how. Her claim of "disruption", without showing there had been any disruption, can in this case be an indicator of her having apparently developed a personal hostility toward me.
 * 6) There is also an additional problem with the unfounded accusations made by Gwen Gale against me because I edit under my own name. That means that anyone who does a Google search will easily find these accusations which make me sound like some sort of god-damned wiki-criminal, perhaps no better than a common pick-pocket. I am not some weird vandal, stalker, or troll. I make rational edits that are sourced and verifiable. I have no objection to users using Wiki-aliases, but I would nice to get a minimum of consideration, and it is disgusting for users to make unfounded accusations against those using their real name, while they hide behind an alias. For instance, this is the edit by PalestineRemembered that Gwen Gale accused me of refactoring . Although I did not intentionally remove any of this, I think it is a baseless and disgusting insult, that it no justifiable reason to be on the VillagePump, and think Gwen Gale would have been better advised to remove it, rather than protect it.

End of complaint. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 18:10, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe there is a specific rule against refactoring comments made by others. I don't have the link handy. Not commenting on anything else said here. // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #6D351A;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#6D351A;">  18:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm going to defend Gwen here. Malcolm on his own talk page wrote, "I have said more that once that in a more perfect world someone as computer incompetent as I am would not be allowed to edit Wikipedia."  After finally convincing him that he had actually removed content, Gwen continuously offered to unblock him immediately if he would promise to refrain from refactoring talk pages, since he is clearly not capable of doing so without causing disruption.  Instead of simply agreeing, he dismissed the damage he caused as deserved by the editor whose comments were removed.  It's easy to see that the same thing is likely to happen again in the future.  (Obligatory disclaimer:  Malcolm believes that I am biased against him.) Looie496 (talk) 18:29, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The block has already been overturned, so what exactly do you want? --Tango (talk) 18:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There are two things that come to mind. One is that I would like a promise from Gwen Gale that she not act in administrative capacity in issues that touch on Israel/Palestine disputes because there is reason to think that she is far from neutral. Another thing, which I think I made pretty clear, but which should perhaps go to the VillagePump also, is how accusations are directed at users who edit under their own names. It should be a little closer to WP:BLP, there can be criticism but not speculative or unfounded nasty accusations. It is common courtesy, something which many avid internet users tend to forget.


 * The thing is, unless it is either of a blatantly offensive/racist/ethnic/etc...nature or if it is your own user talk page, you have no right to alter the words of another user, anywhere at any time. Period.  Not if they disagree, not if you think it is off-topic, or whatever.  Other users can judge off-topicness for themselves, and choose to respond or not respond as appropriate.  And this holier-than-thou attitude regarding people who use their real names vs. people who do not is getting very old, very quickly. Tarc (talk) 18:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If someone makes a statement that's blatantly and extremely offensive, typically it is edited out with a signed comment explaining why. Other than that, besides simple restructuring of indentations to make the flow clearer, the standing procedure is that editing others' comments is strictly forbidden, even if it's merely to fix a spelling error. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * To defend Malcolm, he was only trying to unindent somebody else's comment, which is not forbidden. Neither is moving a comment that has been placed in the wrong spot.  But he screwed up the edit and accidentally deleted material, thereby causing the problem. Looie496 (talk) 18:58, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Suggest that Malcolm Schosha in future pay more attention to doing things "by the book", otherwise you just leave yourself open to trouble. Suggest that admin Gwen Gale in future recuse herself from warning or blocking Malcolm Schosha; this latest overturned block means that the presumption of fairness, regarding this particular user, is impaired. As far as removing the so-called "Arbitrary Section Break" inserted by User:PalestineRemembered is concerned, doing so was exactly right, though the execution may have been faulty. Quoting from the edit summary by User:Werdna: "confusing and annoying section header. It doesn't actually achieve anything, and it's confusing because it's an h2 not an h3." In particular, removing or downgrading that insertion did not violate the prohibition against editing others' Talk page comments, being a matter of simple housekeeping.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 19:08, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, if all he had done was take away the section header, that would have been OK. Section headers don't belong to the commenter, and are subject to change. He should have left it at that. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 19:13, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

The block was unnecessary, since the warning seemed to be sufficient (he didn't understand he had removed content, so he denied it, but I think its clear that he was just not seeing what he'd done). I don't see any need for Gwen to recuse from issues involving the IP conflict or Malcolm, I just wish Gwen would be slower on the block button in all cases.

To Malcolm - people don't get blocked multiple times in a few months period for no reason at all. You need to start being more careful. Learn to edit Wikipedia as it is, and not as you'd like it to be. Change in this community takes time and effort, like anywhere else, and things don't improve via demands and protests. <strong style="color:#228B22;">Avruch <strong style="color:#228B22;"> T 19:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Avruch, no matter what some users may think, in the real world reverting a WP edit more than three times in a day is not a crime, nor does it indicate moral depravity. It is true that some users do not fit in here very well, and since I have decided that is so of me I do intend to cut back my editing here, if not end participation all together. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 19:29, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

You did refactor talk page comments. If you find this "disgusting"...you need to find a new hobby. This is just an online encyclopedia. --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 19:33, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I removed talk page content that was clearly off the topic. If you think I am going to apologize for doing that, you are very wrong. The rules clearly stated that the talk pages are not to be used as discussion boards, they exist only to discuss improving the article. As for my needing to find a new "hobby", you are certainly right, as I said above. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 19:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You did it and you admit to doing it. So why do you have a problem with getting in trouble for it? --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 19:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it's meaningful that Malcom didn't agree to stop refactoring comments, when I offered to unblock him. Malcolm has been warned before about refactoring talk pages. He does this to muddle and blank negative comments about his behaviour. Given his background with other editors and long experience with edit windows, I don't believe he deleted the content by mistake. I believe he tried to mislead me after the warning. After the block, he put up help tags and more posts saying he had not removed content. When at last he couldn't deny the diff, he called the content he'd deleted "bullshit," which I think speaks for itself. By the time his block was reviewed, that thread on Malcolm's talk page was a tangle. Going by an email reply the unblocking admin later sent me, I think the unblocking admin misread Malcolm's talk page and misunderstood what had happened. I think the unblock was a mistake. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:49, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * This is just trying to change the subject. If you were bothered by my accedentally deleting some of PalestineRemembered's rant all you had to do was
 * restore the material and give me a warning (which you did), or
 * explain what was missing and then wait to see if I restored it (which you did not do).


 * The promise you wanted, after you blocked me anyhow, was a stipulation you added later, and in my view it was just an added requirement intended to cover your own problematic action. Also, in what you write above, you have assumed my bad faith. This exactly what I was complaining about in my original statement. What gives you the right to speculate about my motives, and make such accusations against an editor using his real name, while you hide behind your wiki-alias?


 * Moreover, you claimed I was being "disruptive", when no one at the Village Pump, where this happened, complained about that at all....not even PalestineRemembered. So where did that come from? Who was it that complained I was disruptive? Malcolm Schosha (talk) 20:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Someone sent me an email. When I saw you had removed a negative comment about yourself, I warned you. When in reply to the warning, you denied having removed content and told me to back off, I blocked you as a disruption risk. I then exchanged posts with you in which you carried on denying you had removed content. When you at last acknowledged that you had removed content, you called it a "bullshit edit" but at least having gotten that acknowledgement, I became hopeful and offered to unblock you if you'd agree to stop refactoring comments. In answering me that you would not agree to stop refactoring comments, you said, "You are asking me to make this promise to hide that you have blocked me improperly," which is when I left the discussion. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * "Someone" sent you an e-mail. Well. Hmm. Of course, I knew that there is nothing about this on your user talk page, because I looked. Was this via Wikipedia user e-mail, or is this someone you are in direct e-mail contact with? And, why was this done in a way to hide the discussion, instead of by the usual way on talk pages? Malcolm Schosha (talk) 21:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * By the way, just what was this risk of disruption? Anyone who looks at the thread of discussion can see that I remained civil in every case, including when I took some very uncivil comments. Why are you presenting me as being on the verge of going out of control, when anyone who reads the thread can see that was far fro the case? Malcolm Schosha (talk) 21:51, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That's about enough of this. Does it matter how she found out about it? The fact is that you did it. There is no need for you to come to ANI and cause drama when the situation was already mostly resolved. It's time for you to back away from this matter because it's clear you have no intention of doing anything constructive with this thread. --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 21:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The fact is that I was blocked for "disruptiveness", and I have yet to see any indication that there was a disruption. All that happened is a small part of an edit got removed. I had no idea. You, as well as Gwen Gale, are assuming bad faith, but that was not put to the test. Well, why not. The situation was not dire. I gave the link to the discussion, above. The situation was calm. PalestineRemembered made some accusations against me, and I replied calmly. More calmly, I think, than him. I would like to get some specifics from Gwen Gale about her accusation. But it was done by e-mail. Why by e-mail? She has made a lot of accusations. What is that based on? Malcolm Schosha (talk) 22:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Dude, it's really simple:
 * Did you remove comments made by someone else? Yes, by your own admission.
 * Is that forbidden by WP practice and policy? Yes.
 * Did Gwen Gale have a reasonable belief that you would do it again? Yes, because you refused to acknowledge that you'd done it, and then admitted that you had.
 * Given the above, was it a reasonable block to prevent disruption? Yes.
 * Gwen isn't going to lose her sysop bit, and she's smart enough that she has taken any valid criticism out of this situation and internalised it for future events. So..
 * 5. Is any further admin intervention needed? No, this should be marked resolved.
 * // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #6D351A;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#6D351A;">  22:12, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Basically, what you just said. Can I also point out that when you admit to doing it, it's not assuming bad faith for anyone to ignore the fact that all of a sudden you decide to deny doing it? You are very clear on what happened - you admitted to it, you mentioned it in your initial complaint, you've mentioned it on other user's talkpages. The fact that you now decide to play dumb is not going to be tolerated. Drop it. --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 22:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't understand your point. Sure later I saw that I some stuff got lost when I reverted an edit, but not for a long time. I thought it was a mistake. Actually, I still don't understand exactly what happened. When Gwen Gale said I had refactored an edit, I denied it because I had no idea that it had happened. I denied it because I was sure I had not removed anything. I thought she was wrong. Its called a mistake. If she had assumed good faith, and showed me exactly what was gone, I would have restored it myself. I had, in fact earlier, changed a subtitle to outdented text, and was careful to make sure nothing was lost. It seems that later, when PalestineRemembered reverted to the subheading he also added a paragraph. When I reverted again, that got lost. I did not realize that even could happen. Why would I be careful to keep everything the first time, and remove something the second time? Malcolm Schosha (talk) 23:03, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * No. You have it wrong. In fact, so far, no one has shown a rule against refactoring talk page edits. But that is not even the issue because I was blocked for "disruptiveness." But where was the disruption? In fact the editing situation was calm. All I have heard from Gwen Gale is that there was an e-mail. Why an e-mail? Moreover, since she did not point out the deleted material to me, I I had no way to understand the problem, or to fix it. She just made a flat statement, without showing me the problem. I had no idea. I denied it because I thought that was correct. But if I was blocked for disruption, I do not think it too much to ask to see what she thinks was disrupted. The editing situation was calm. Where was the disruption?


 * I am saying to this too: I did not come here to edit Wikipedia so that I could get my name dragged through the mud. I do not think I am asking too much that other users not make speculative negative accusations, defamation, accessible to anyone doing a Google search. The WP guideline is WP:assume good faith, and this whole issue involves a failure exactly there. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 22:43, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * WP:TALK. You broke a rule. Deal with it. No one is dragging your name through the mud. In fact, the only reason we are still discussing it is that you refuse to drop the matter. --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 22:48, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * What rule did I break? Editing a comment? I was careful not to do that. Was there a mistake? It seems so. Why did I get a 72hr block for a mistake? If Gwen Gale had explained, I would have fixed it. But the block was for "disruption." Where was the disruption? Look at the thread. Show me disruptive behavior. Everything was calm.


 * There is this, that applies to PalestineRemembered's edits, not mine :


 * "* Keep on topic: Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal."
 * "* Be positive: Article talk pages should be used to discuss ways to improve an article; not to criticize, pick apart, or vent about the current status of an article or its subject. This is especially true on the talk pages of biographies of living people. However, if you feel something is wrong, but are not sure how to fix it, then by all means feel free to draw attention to this and ask for suggestions from others."


 * Not a word about the problematic nature of that. Go figure.Malcolm Schosha (talk) 23:32, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

(out)You broke a rule--you removed comments made by another person. Something you have been warned about doing before, so you cannot pretend you didn't know it wasn't allowed. Doing things that you know are not allowed is de facto disruptive. // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #355E3B;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#355E3B;">  23:40, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There has been the unsupported accusation that I broke a rule by removing comments. The users who have been repeating that should either show me the rule that forbids removing off topic material from talk pages, or stop stop making unsupported statements. As I have said, what was removed was an accident; but, because the material was off topic, removing it was (in any case) specifically allowed, as is stated on WP:Talk page guidelines. I am copying the most relevant item from the WP:Talk page guidelines:
 * "* Keep on topic: Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal."


 * The material that was deleted was a small part of an edit by PalestineRemembered on a thread on the VillagePump. Article talk pages are for discussion to improve the article. VillagePump discussion is for improving Wikipedia. The material in question was PalestineRemembered's criticisms of me, and has absolutely nothing to do with improving WP, and they should be removed. However, since Gwen Gale asked me not to remove it, I did not. But its removal would not have been a violation of WP rules even if I had done it intentionally. That did not stop her for blocking me anyhow, for 72hrs. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 12:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

A gentle reminder to all: Be civil toward each other. Kingturtle (talk) 19:52, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reminder, Kingturtle. Who has been uncivil? Gwen Gale (talk) 19:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I think, at best, this block was a clumsy bit of overkill, aggravated by a lack of communication. "Risk of disruption?" Okay, any admin who thinks that is a good reason to block should probably be desysopped for the exact same reason -- risk of disruption. Gwen, if you have had content disputes with Malcolm before (and I don't know if that's true), you should refrain from blocking him, for any reason. I can't tell you how harmful it is when admins use their powers for that purpose. I also find people's insistence that any kind of refactoring of comments is somehow a major wiki-crime. It isn't generally encouraged (though there are debates about what is an isn't acceptable), but a 72 hour block for it is far from sensible. "Improper" is putting it mildly. Yeesh. IronDuke 21:50, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I haven't had any content disputes with Malcolm. Rather, I helped him get his account re-established after he had been blocked for sockpuppetry. He removed negative comments about himself which had been made by another editor and then, when I warned him about it, Malcolm denied having removed the content. He had been warned before about his highly misleading refactoring of discussion pages. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the quick reply. Do you have any idea what Malcolm is talking about, in terms of content disputes? As for the refactor, I don't see any good reason to doubt that MS simply made a mistake and removed more than he wanted. And it appears (correct me if I am wrong) that you blocked him before he could explain it was a mistake. IronDuke  22:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There was this in which she argued against an article I nominated for deletion, and which had exactly to do with issues in the Israel/Palestine dispute which was a factor in the block also. (By the way, the article she argued in favor of does not have a single thing in it to establish notability.) There was, just before the block, this -- in which she was arguing against me, and made it clear that she also wished I would go away and not get involved in the Israel/Palestine dispute in the Hummus article. There is also that she actually blocked me for disruptiveness, but could not produce a complaint against me because she said it was an e-mail communication....which I consider problematic. As far as I could tell everything on the Village Pump (where this happened) was calm. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 22:40, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I've been trying to mediate, off and on, for months on the talk page of the black hole of lame edit wars which is hummus. More lately, Malcolm has dropped by to make some comments there, but I'm not aware of having ever gone back and forth with Malcom over edits to any article in the main space. As for his removal of the negative comments about himself at VP, I've gotten to know his editing history over the last five months and I still don't believe it was a mistake. My take is, he got caught the other day making a misleading muddle by refactoring and removing content from a discussion and has tried to make a further, misleading muddle out of what happened ever since. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:48, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

By the way, having different views in an AfD is hardly a content dispute. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:52, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, people do get pretty sensitive over I-P issues, so I think it's best to avoid even the appearance of COI. And it seems pretty easy for you to have simply said, "Malcolm, here is the comment you deleted, please put it back," and waited to see if he would. I can't see any actual disruption to the project of any measurable significance to what had been done up until his block. FWIW, I do agree with you about the sinkhole of lameness that is the Hummus edit war. Wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pita. IronDuke  22:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The time when I was warned previously about talk page deletions was on the Anti-Zionism article, when I removed some chat that had nothing to do with the article; and in that case too I was warned by Gwen Gale. Truthfully she had always been very helpful to me, but when I became involved in articles having to do with Israel/Palestine issues, she started to oppose my editing. (I am logging off now, so anything further from me will have to be tomorrow.) Malcolm Schosha (talk) 22:58, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

As I said, I've never had a dispute with Malcolm over article edits. As I've also said, many times, Malcom repeatedly denied having removed the content from VP. It was hours before he admitted having done so. When he had done, I offered straight off to unblock him if he'd agree to stop re-factoring talk pages, but he answered by saying I was only trying to cover up a bad block, so I left the discussion. By then, the thread was such a mess, I truly believe the unblocking admin, all in good faith, misread it and misunderstood what had happened. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:03, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I do see content dipsutes on articles in this area. You seem like a reasonable person, so I'm sure you meant no harm. But the effect of this kind of thing can be harmful. I've taken a closer look at the sequence of events, and it gets a bit more disturbing, as I read it (correct, please, any errors of fact I may have made). You opened a new section on refactoring here, where you say "You've been warned before about refactoring comments, if you do this again, you will likely be blocked from editing.." The next edit is the one you link to above. AFAICT, it is not MS "repeatedly" denying it, but denying it once. The next edit on his talk page is you blocking him. Note that he did not violate your warning -- he didn't refactor anything else, merely stated (in error) that he had not removed text. If you really felt that strongly, you could have posted again, "Malcolm, I insist that you acknowledge/reverse what you did, or I will block you." I'd be uncomfortable with that, as refactoring talk page comments is rarely a blockable offense. But it would be better than what you did, which was to block him without warning. IronDuke  23:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Removing other editors' good faith comments from project pages isn't allowed. Malcolm got caught doing this and is now stirring up whatever kerfluffle he can, to make editors forget this happened, it's what he does, it's why he re-factors talk pages to begin with. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:34, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Removing off topic comments from talk pages is allowed, even though I did not (in this case) remove anything intentionally. That VillagePump page is for discussing possible changes to WPpolicy, not for discussing what some editors think are my editing deficiencies. That is off topic discussion in that context. That sort of complaint should have been brought here, or to one of the other AN pages. In that edit PalestineRemembered put material that I wanted to reply to, but did not because the VillagePump(policies) is a bad place to argue disputes between editors. Basically, what he wrote in his edit was just one more cheap shot that I could not even reply to because that was not the place for such an argument. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 12:42, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Appalled
Someone just came here wih a valid complaint and got treated like crap. All he wanted was an apology, nothing more. The edit he was blocked for was constructive; all he wanted to do was keep the discussion together, but he messed up. This is why WP:IAR exists, so people can do minor constructive things like moving someone's comment into the right place to improve wikipedia in spite of what the rules say. I've had comments on deletion discussions moved below the comment they were in response to. Roux and Smashville, you guys should be ashamed of yourselves, your behaviour was appalling.-- Patton 123  16:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No it wasn't. You showing up on my talkpage to harass me--when you had absolutely no idea what you were talking about--was appalling. Doing it again after being explicitly told not to was even worse. My behaviour here was fine--believe me, had there actually been a problem with it, someone who actually knows what they're talking about would have said so. // roux  <span style="border:1px solid #614051;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;color:#614051;">  21:31, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ^This^ PXK    T  /C   17:07, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What valid complaint? LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Also wondering what valid complaint...? --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 21:58, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Equally surprised. The removal of an ===arbitrary section break=== is not within the spirit of "refactoring another's comment" that is discouraged by the Talk page guidelines. There was not real removal of content. Moreover, the "break" did seem a bit unseemly considering the discussion was not that long prior to the section break. Moreover, the editor who added the section break had been blocked around a dozen times and coincidentally the section break seemed to give greater prominence to his (comment) critique of Malcom's editing habits. A block was wrong, a fortiori for 72 hours. -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 23:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Real content was indeed removed, which is not allowed. After being warned, Malcolm aggresively denied removing any content. The block was based on this utter lack of acknowledgement, which I saw as a likelihood the disruption would carry on. The length of the block was drawn from Malcolm's block log. After being blocked, Malcom carried on denying he had removed any content. When Malcolm at last acknowledged he had removed content, he called that content a "bullshit edit". However, having at last gotten that acknowledgement, I became hopeful and offered to unblock Malcolm (having already offered to unblock once before), if he would agree to stop refactoring comments, but he didn't want to agree to that. Gwen Gale (talk) 00:19, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Gwen Gale, first of all, deleting of off topic content is allowed as I have shown WP:Talk page guidelines. I am copying the most relevant item from the WP:Talk page guidelines:
 * "* Keep on topic: Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal."


 * I did not delete anything intentionally, but if I had, The rules allow that.


 * Then there is the accusation of "disruption." This was on the VillagePump, with many experienced editors and administrators watching, but there was no comment from any one about my causing a disruption. Rather, you claim that "someone" contacted you by direct e-mail. That seems very strange. Why were they too shy to say anything directly to me? Moreover, I do not see how the criteria for "disruption" applies to what happened. Instead WP guidelines state :


 * "In order to protect against frivolous accusations and other potential exploitation, no editor shall be eligible for a disruptive editor block until after a consensus of neutral parties has agreed that an editor has behaved in a disruptive manner. This consensus can be achieved through requests for comment, third opinion, wikiquette alert, or similar means. This does not include editors whose edits constitute violations of probation or other edit restrictions, who may be blocked for such edits independent of this guideline."


 * So I still see no justification at all for your action. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 14:30, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * "The block was based on [...] which I saw as a likelihood the disruption would carry on". So Malcolm was blocked for likelihood of disruption, but not for disruption itself? Where did I see it before? Anyway, I don't think people should be blocked for future offences.M0RD00R (talk) 00:57, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Although you may not like it (and that's certainly your right), you might read WP:BLOCK which says "Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Wikipedia, not to punish users" So yes, blocks are based on the likelihood of future disruption (based on past behavior and statements). If there's little liklihood of future disruption, why block? It wouldn't accomplish anything.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  01:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (ec) By policy, blocks are preventative, not punitive. Malcolm had been disruptive and his unwillingness to acknowledge that he had removed the negative comment about himself meant there was a strong likelihood this disruption would continue. Gwen Gale (talk) 01:04, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Can we stick a cork in this topic now, or do you think this can be simplified further? Half  Shadow  01:10, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know if any good will be accomplished discussing further. That said, it's pretty clear that this was a troubling block, made more troublesome by a lack of acknowledgement that there could be anything wrong with blocking a user one had prior dispute with without warning for an unusually long block. Some sense that patience would have served the situation better and led to less drama would be good. IronDuke  01:15, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Very little good in discussing further; at what point do you think the arsonist requires apprehending? When they are buying petrol, bottle, cloth and matches? When they put the petrol in the bottle and stuff the cloth into the neck? When they light the cloth? When they throw the molotov cocktail?
 * Or when the house catches fire? What part of "preventative" are you having difficulty with? LessHeard vanU (talk) 01:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, your analogy is extraordinarily apt, of course. What MS was doing was the exact wiki equivalent of arson. He was warned, did not violate the warning, but was blocked anyway, on a pretty flimsy pretext. I'm getting a good sense of your ability to write with rancor, but perhaps you could take some time to focus on what I actually wrote -- all of it -- and less on over-the-top sneers. As for "preventative," given that GG was wrong and doesn't admit it, would that require an emergency block to keep her from doing it again in the next 72 hours? (Hint: the answer is "no.") IronDuke  04:43, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * IronDuke, since you seem to love defending this obvious disruptive user, and you keep asserting there was a content dispute, despite the fact that there wasn't(disagreeing in an AfD is not a content dispute, if it was, we would be to our eyes in RfCs). So, since you keep asserting that their was, why not you go bring us some nice and helpful evidence that you're right.  Otherwise, you might just stop.  No one here is backing up your arguments, as currently, they don't hold much water.  Have you even bothered to read the evidence presented in the diffs?


 * Maybe you should look over WP policy a little more closely, also, you should read the block policy, and stop saying WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT every time evidence is shoved in your face, but, to re-iterate:


 * The user deleted negative comments from a talk page that was not his own, he then denied that he did this when called on it multiple times, after that, when he finally couldn't refute the obvious fact that he did indeed remove the comments, he called the edit bullshit, and made no indication that he would stop.


 * Now that we have that out of the way, I really, really suggest you read WP:TPG, where you will find that refactoring comments, or deleting them, is prohibited. This this user has engaged in this behavior, and done so in the past, and has been blocked for it, and made no indication that he was going to stop, a block was definitely in order, to prevent him from refactoring comments again, as he made(and I know I'm repeating myself here, but I want to make sure it's stated enough times that Duke doesn't have a chance of missing it) no indication that he was going to stop breaking policy.—  Dæ dαlus <sup style="color:green;">Contribs  10:53, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to read WP:TPG... again... right after you get done with it. Removing a talk page post is not forbidden, and the page itself isn't even policy, and also admits to exceptions, right on the page. I'm not sure why you're getting so hysterical over this, but I hope you can dial it down a couple notvhes, should you choose to post here again. IronDuke  15:34, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (I don't know why I am bothering, since this editor cannot even understand the principles of analogy...). If someone assembles a molotov cocktail and I say, "Don't throw that molotov cocktail!" and they reply "I don't have a molotov cocktail", but when I get them to agree that what they have in their hands is really a molotov cocktail and their further response is "Well, I was only going to firebomb those who really deserve it!" and I then remove the ability to commit arson, then you think that the petrol bomber is being harassed by me? I can only imagine that you are not concerned with the facts, for reasons I have no interest in determining. In short, it doesn't matter that they didn't repeat the policy violation - they first denied they had, and when faced with the evidence said that they felt they were right to violate policy. Faced with that mindset I think Gwen Gale exercised great good faith in only blocking for a few days, as I don't see how such a fundamental misunderstanding toward policy is going to change in that short time. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:33, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * For the record, I had to read the above post a number of times for it to make any sense - that's one hell of a convoluted analogy. With regards to your edit summary, please rememeber to remain civil. Talk Islander 12:41, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, though it's obviously the case that I cannot even understand the principles of analogy, the cystal clarity of the prose in the above analogy -- its unassailable logic, really -- leaves me with no reply. IronDuke  15:38, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not at all satisfied in the way this is going, particularly by Gwen Gale's method of defending her actions by continuing to make unsupported accusations against me. Could someone explain to me how I can take this problem up the the next level of dispute resolution? Malcolm Schosha (talk) 12:51, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You have still never said what it is exactly you are disputing, as you are now unblocked anyways. Seeking some sort of punitive measure or censure to be taken of Gwen Gale?  She made a judgment call on your current action, that it was the same as the previous actions that have led to being blocked, and blocked you again accordingly.  We can all see quite plainly on your talk page where your argument morphed from aggressive denial to aggressive dismissal of what you deleted when you finally owned up to doing it to the refusal to simply say "I won't refactor the comments of others ever again".  Protip;  you're in a hole, Schosha.  Stop digging. Tarc (talk) 13:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I was about to say this to the complainant: How about just dropping this whole deal, and just going back to normal editing? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 13:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, sure. Gwen Gale is one of those administrators whose actions show up at ANI a disproportionate number of times, so it should only take somewhere between six to eight hours of your life to put together enough diffs and log entries for a Request for Comment.  You’ll have to find another disgruntled editor to certify the dispute, which should not be too hard.  Then people will bicker over the RFC for a few weeks, and then in a month, after everyone’s forgotten about it anyway, someone will “close” the RFC with no action, no recommendations, and no remedies and you’ll be right back to where you started.  Nothing will change because of this RFC, but you’ll still file it because in another few months, after you’ve collected more diffs (and if you haven’t GoodbyeCruelWikied by then), you’ll rinse and repeat at arbitration!  You’ll be disappointed to find that arbitration is just like RFC but with fancier clerking; nothing will come of your complaint there either.


 * Thanks for the reply. In that case, I will just continue to argue here, there is plenty more that needs to be discussed. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 13:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Tarc, refactoring off topic comments is not forbidden, and there I no reason why I should promise that. At this point the issue is, in addition to administrator misconduct, violations of WP:CIVIL, and WP:no personal attacks. Gwen Gale has chosen to defend herself by extending her accusations against me. But, nevertheless, the only "punishment" I want is that she admit that she acted in error. If you find this process too painful for your delicate sensibilities, I would be better if you did not watch. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 13:15, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Refactoring the comments of others, unless it is a blatant personal attack or WP:BLP violation, IS forbidden. But hell, even if it wasn't, it would still be the height of incivility, rudeness, and extremely bad manners to wipe the words of another off of a discussion page just because it was a section/discussion you happened to start and you felt it was off-topic.  And no, my sensibilities are not delicate.  Watching this is painful though, in the sense that watching someone speeding a car down winding road, and lacking either the ability or the desire to apply the brakes to save themselves is painful. Tarc (talk) 13:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Tarc wrote: Watching this is painful though, in the sense that watching someone speeding a car down winding road, and lacking either the ability or the desire to apply the brakes to save themselves is painful.

Tarc, you have no idea how touched I feel over your show of concern for my well being.

Once again, could someone explain to me how I can take this problem up the the next level of dispute resolution? Thank you. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 13:42, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You broke the rules and were short-term blocked for it. If you continue to pursue this, which appears to be a vendetta, you risk a longer block for continued disruption. Drop it and go back to editing. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Deleting of off topic content is allowed as I have shown WP:Talk page guidelines. I am copying the most relevant item from the WP:Talk page guidelines:
 * "* Keep on topic: Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal."


 * Bugs, you keep saying I broke the rules, but not which rules I broke. If you persist in doing that it might seem that you are engaging in deception. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 15:19, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You are not supposed to mess with other people's comments. If you have a problem with so-called personal attacks, you bring them here, you don't try to "take the law into your own hands". Furthermore, your short-term block is over, yet you continue to harrangue about this. You appear to be engaged in a personal vendetta, and if you don't stopy, you will likely be blocked again. Or is that what you want? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:25, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Malcolm is right, deleting one comment (apparently accidentally) should not result in a block without warning. Nor should he be threatened with blocks for complaning. That's just wrong. (NB: Bugs, I see you on this board a lot, and agree with you much of the time (even if silently), so please don't take this personally.) Malcolm, I will agree with many of the posters above when I say there is nothing you can do about this. Yes, Gwen should have been contrite, but she wasn't. If this behavior persisted, maybe you'd have something, but one thing Wikipedia rarely provides is catharsis. IronDuke  15:43, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not an admin, so I have no authority to threaten anyone with a block. I'm giving him good advice based on past observations of the result of this kind of behavior. He needs to just walk away from this and go back to editing instead of trying to get someone to punish the admin, who may have overreacted, but no real harm was done. And he should take a lesson to never again mess with other people's comments. Somewhere in his harrangue he's making a claim of bias against the admin. That also sounds like a personal attack. It's a two-way street, ya know. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's hard to find the trigger of this megillah anymore, so here it is again: The complainant here messed with other people's comments. He shouldn't have done that, period. Maybe the block was improper. The block was removed and the editor can edit again. If there is an issue with the admin's behavior, it should be noted and logged for future reference in case there is a larger case to be made. But this ain't it. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:10, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Malcolm, for the last time, you broke a rule. The fact that you selectively read the WP:TALK guidelines and specifically avoid WP:TALK, which says, "As a rule, do not edit others' comments, including signatures." The following portion includes exceptions, none of which apply here. If you continue your vendetta on a rule you very clearly broke, you will be blocked. There is no excuse for your continued disruption. This matter is closed.