Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive519

Need Eyes
Could I get administrative eyes on Axolotl, Mudpuppy, and Mudskipper? I just removed a bunch of SIHULM vandalism from the latter page and semi'd it indef until we can get more eyes on it. -Jeremy (v^_^v Cardmaker) 05:49, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Good call. Note that the editor that played with Axolotl is a logged in user, but we'll see what they do in response. I guess this gives someone some jollies, but it's beyond me. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 06:13, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's channer vandalism - SIHULM is a forced Internet meme, and at present Mudkip's list article is indef-semi'd because anons will not quit adding it past what is already there. -Jeremy (v^_^v Cardmaker) 21:49, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the context. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:07, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Problems on Ancient Egyptian race controversy article
This article is on probation user:Wapondaponda is being disruuptive trying to pov and force things into the article instead of leting the talk page solve the issue he has already been warned about being uncivl before at this article by admin User:Aaron Brenneman.can we get some admin assistance on this article thanks--Wikiscribe (talk) 19:44, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Judging by Requests for checkuser/Case/Wikiscribe, who is the problem editor on the article. Wapondaponda (talk) 20:04, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Clearly a desperate attempt to avoid a block off the article(because he already has a warning and the article is on probation),i dont see a warning there for me causing disruption at the article of current topic--Wikiscribe (talk) 20:18, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

User:GaryDaFatSnail
Somebody hardblock this guy - just check his recent edits. Exxolon (talk) 20:01, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest just blocking for a week first, then hardblocking very quickly afterwards at the first sign of this behaviour being repeated - don't want to be toooooo harsh... ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 20:04, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Tarysky


User continues to revert MOS changes to articles, after previously being warned several times now to. Please check the user's talk page history. User is also claiming vandalism of others without citing evidence, and is therefore personally attacking them. User has been warned against such behavior as well. Lastly, this user has a history of being uncivil, and has been before.

The user above has also been blocked for said incivility, he has obviously learned nothing, as, after being warned by an admin not to claim vandalism and personal attcks of others without citing evidence, he does so anyway. Here he is commiting vandalism himself, and here he is again throwing accusations of vandalims just because a user was making MOS changes to the article. Lastly, here he is claiming that I have lied after reporting him for obvious incivility. If this user doesn't want to work constructively, then I would suggest a block, as he has been warned against this kind of behavior before, and was in fact blocked for it. All this new evidence shows is that he hasn't learned anything.—  Dæ dαlus Contribs  21:59, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

WP:POINT - Creation of new Village pumps page - "Redundant policies"

 * Village pump (redundant policies)
 * Villagepumps header template edit
 * Villagepumps header template edit

I've tagged the page for speedy and reverted the template edit. Wanted to make sure this got some attention. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:16, 3 Mar 2009 (UTC) Content that, while apparently meaningful after a fashion, is so completely and irredeemably confused that no reasonable person can be expected to make any sense of it whatsoever. If the reson for the page does not make sense to you, please explain. I extremely dislike it when people simply mark up pages with shortcuts to one of Wikipedia's forty-some policies. It just does not help with productivity. I wish to be as helpful with people who do not understand the meaning of content is the way I try it write it to be understood, so please be aware that I can not be helpful unless you ask for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spitfire19 (talk • contribs)
 * I do not think that the page is an example of 2nd catergory(or 1st) of Patent nonsense, which explains:
 * I couldn't find a CSD criteria that said "Creation of ridiculous pages in project space so that a user could make a point." Sorry. Regardless of the page not fitting the particular criteria under which it was tagged, it's still more than worthy of immediate deletion. I can't see anyone actually thinking an MfD is necessary in this case. Equazcion •✗/C • 04:56, 3 Mar 2009 (UTC)
 * Oops, sorry, I didn't give you your explanation. Here it is: If you think a policy is redundant, you should express your concerns on its talk page, or at Village pump (policy). There's no reason to go creating additional Village Pumps pages specifically for a certain type of policy complaint. If you have any further questions please feel free to respond, and I'll do my best to help. Equazcion •✗/C • 05:12, 3 Mar 2009 (UTC)
 * There is a very good reason why WP:POINT isn't a CSD - it isn't objective enough. I see no reason to continue this discussion - just voice your opinion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Village pump (redundant policies). עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 11:04, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The change in the template violates db-t3, but I don't see the immediate harm to Wikipedia. The or section that I see on the page clearly doesn't belong there, however.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 18:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Deleted per MFD and WP:SNOW. Let the wheel war begin.... wait for it... wait for it... NOW.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  22:32, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

An accusation against me
User:Bake1987 has accused me of "intentionally making up caste-conflicts in Wikipedia" and has thus made terrible accusations against me. The conflict erupted when I requested the editors of Nadar article to provide evidence here for a claim that Pandyas were Nadars. I had insisted upon such a move because there has been claims of Pandya ancestry for two communities  and  and there has been unpleasant caste-clashes over claims of royal ancestry. As you might notice, I had also raised in the issue in the talkpage for the other party involved. I felt that if such a claim could excite passions to such an extent that people were indulging in fighting and abusing then there is the possibility that someone or the other was here simply to add propaganda, which is very much against the encyclopedic nature of this project. However, User:Bake1987 has been reverting my edits calling it "vandalism". When I proposed that the concerned editors provide references at Talk:List of Mukkulathors User:Bake1987 responded by accusing me of deliberately creating caste-conflicts. So, since, Bake1987 has made this accusation, I wish Bake1987 provide the evidences on basis of which he made such accusations upon me.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 12:44, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * That's hardly a "terrible accusation". Besides, the evidence on which he bases accusing you of "intentionally making up caste conflicts", is in the diff you provide. He said you called nadars "toddy-tappers". I believe you were just quoting someone else, so that seems to be a misunderstanding. Anyway, I have no idea what you guys are going on about, but it looks like a content dispute with some minor civility issues to me. No administrator attention required for that.--Atlan (talk) 14:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * This is what he says in the next line:


 * "As i said there was never a thevar behind this controversy. You made that up yourself"


 * I understand that by this he implies that I was the one who orchestrated this by tampering with the talk page of Thevar article or something of that sort. I hope User:Bake1987 clarifies and points out the evidence with which he comes to such conclusions. I have been here for close to two and a half years and never has anyone made such accusations against me.


 * Besides, I also feel disturbed by User:Bake1987's attitude of "speaking for a particular community" and pouncing on the slightest provocation upon things which may not even distantly intended to vilify his community. Considering the fact that most of the recent edits to the article has been made by a person whose motive seems to be to depict his community in a favourable manner, I wonder if it would be neutral,- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 01:57, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * User:Bake1987 has retracted his comments at Talk:Nadar (caste). So, as of now, I withdraw this complaint. However, as Bake1987 has openly stated that he is editing for the sake of a caste-welfare organization ("Nadar Sangham"), I request someone here to keep a watch on his edits for any breach of neutrality. Thanks.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 04:41, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Socks trolling RfA
Can someone ensure, and friends are blocked and their votes at RfA stricken? Skomorokh 13:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like both were blocked.  Syn  ergy 14:42, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Does it seem like there is an uptick recently with vandalism targeting (directly and indirectly) pages like AIV, CSD, etc? I ran across this yesterday, and don't seem to recall encountering such behavior often in the past. Hiberniantears (talk) 15:13, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It's vandalism guaranteed to get an admin's attention. I can't see the point, but then I can't really see the point of any vandalism. -- Ged UK  15:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Notably, it also seems geared to lead admins into making a mistake with the mop, and thus slows us down by casting more doubt on the legitimacy of vandals and speedy candidates. Not that we shouldn't be doing due diligence on anything we delete or block, but this just slows us down considerably. Hiberniantears (talk) 15:36, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's Hamish Ross again. ✅, , , , , . Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 17:23, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

AIV
Could someone please wander over there? Especially need dealing with. DuncanHill (talk) 14:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ AIV cleared.  So Why  15:02, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

new user behaving like admin and giving level 4 warnings
has reviewed a block as if he was an admin and giving level 4 warnings to IPs for edits that are not vandalism

Just to make sure, is this a sock of the same guy who was pretending to be an admin a few days ago, or is he just some good faith new user? --Enric Naval (talk) 23:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Reminiscent of this particular editor.—Sandahl (talk) 00:00, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Most of the warnings are bogus. He/she has reverted good edits and issued warnings for them. Toddst1 (talk) 00:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * These two edits, one from each ,  looks like the now blocked editor.—Sandahl (talk) 00:08, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * ....and blocked. seicer &#x007C; talk  &#x007C; <font color="#669900">contribs  00:30, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Look up about ten threads back to "Socks trolling RFA". This obviously belongs in that drawer.  Check the name against some of those up there.  Consider this edit:  from one of the above named socks.  Just put this one in that drawer.  This is getting to the point where we may need a checkuser-placed rangeblock to stop this guy.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  01:22, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh? Sockpuppet investigations/Possum Pint. If there are anymore, I'm sure they will turn up. Best.  Syn  ergy 02:22, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Possum Pint is . Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 03:20, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

TBone777 violating WP:NOR despite warnings
has violated the WP:NOR policy at the article Ocean's Three and a Half despite multiple warnings, and is also edit-warring on the article itself in order to reinsert completely unsourced material. I have been a significant contributor to the article in order to improve its quality with multiple citations to secondary sources - so I would appreciate it if another administrator took action here.

Even though the material clearly violates WP:NOR and is completely unsourced but at this point in time still remains in the article from this last edit of his - I would rather not be the one to revert it again (though it does violate policy). I admit even though the article is still semi-protected until March 5, 2009 - I am having chronic trouble, even after placing the edit-notice, with multiple editors violating WP:NOR and adding unsourced material to the article.
 * 04:31, 3 March 2009 - He adds completely unsourced material to the article . I removed it, and placed a warning on his talk page.
 * 04:44, 3 March 2009 - He adds the same unsourced material to the article a second time . I start a discussion on the talk page . I place more explanation on his talk page.
 * 06:13, 3 March 2009 - He adds the same unsourced material to the article a third time, with a link placed in formatting to http://www.adultswim.com/schedule - which simply notes the schedule of the episode itself, but does nothing to back up the unsourced material . I note on his talk page that simply adding a link to the TV show's schedule is not a source . I create an edit-notice prominent at the top of the article warning users not to insert material violating WP:NOR and completely unsourced material - MediaWiki:Editnotice-0-Ocean's Three and a Half.
 * 02:11, 4 March 2009 - He adds the same unsourced material back in yet again, after making an uncivil comment on the article's talk page.

In addition, something should be done regarding.

Thank you for your time. Cirt (talk) 05:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Done :-) - <span style="font-family:Papyrus, sans-serif; color:#775ca8;">Philippe  05:21, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I see where you are coming from with this. You are correct that wikipedia articles need proper citations. Yet, most articles about movies and TV shows tend to be edited by editors who watch the movie/show and edit what they see. Most articles about TV episodes almost never carry citations, although they should. Right or wrong, most editors let most of it go, myself included. Unless of course the information is completly wrong. Constant warning may not have been the best choice in this case, since the user who added the information just ignored them.
 * That being said, this seems to be a WP:BRD problem. I would take it to the talk page and perhaps help work it out there, but thats not my decision, so whatever happens, I hope that it all gets worked out in the end.--Jojhutton (talk) 05:22, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * @ Jojhutton - I did take it to the talk page, as mentioned above. He essentially ignored that. Cirt (talk) 05:32, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Cirt has contributed a large number of featured and good articles about television. Durova Charge! 05:39, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I tend to trust Cirt's judgment in these matters.  But that shouldn't be taken to mean that Jojhutton doesn't make good points... just that I don't think they're totally on target in this case.  - <span style="font-family:Papyrus, sans-serif; color:#775ca8;">Philippe  05:42, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

User: Victor9876 @ Talk:Charles Whitman
(After three editors spoke up in favor of these grammar / voice fixes which he keeps reverting, and now tagging:) arimareiji (talk) 01:18, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "Smells of...sniff...sniff-sniff...sniff...GAMING the system."
 * "It should be obvious Jwy, I do not consider you or Arima as "good" faith editors! Yes, I have a specific remedy to propose - I just can't do it here!"
 * "We have some nice high cliffs here in North Carolina. I could point you towards a few if you would like, out of courtesy of course. LOL! It's a joke Arima, don't respond with your usual huffing and puffing."
 * "I'm sorry Ari, I was watching a cartoon and was laughing my arse off. It took precedence over your response. So, since I was distracted, would you please repeat what you wrote a little louder?"
 * "Darn TV! I'm sorry Ari, what did say again?"
 * "More important questions than yours are: Is Marvin Gaye? Does Helen Hunt? Is Billy Wilder? Does Tom Cruise? Does Gregory Peck? Is Barry White? I don't have all the answers like you do. Make up your own answers, you usually do."
 * "Let's call it WP:CIVIL_WAR. I'll be Lee and you can Saddam Hussein."


 * IMHO, this is another instance where WQA has sway, but since it is a recurring issue, maybe it does need to be addressed in this venue. I have already given Victor9876 the "yellow flag", cautioning him here at my talk page. There are various aspects of what is going on at Talk:Charles Whitman that I don't quite understand, but that still is no reason to abandon WP:CIVIL for an all-out "pith" volley. Admin backup on this is now formally requested, if for no other reason than to calm the tempest brewing here. Edit Centric (talk) 01:17, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * For reference, wrt the above - it has been at WQA twice in the past week. Once over Victor's editing others' comments, once over his gross incivility to Edit Centric. I followed another editor's lead at that page and took a break in the hope things would improve, but they haven't. arimareiji (talk) 01:31, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * On the issue of the recent WQA betwixt myself and Victor9876, we worked that one out, even before 3-O intervention. (I guess that's a hallmark of being in that role myself.) IMHO, Victor9876 has the potential to be a very constructive editor here, but the tendency to become flippant gets in the way of that, in this instance to an intolerable degree.
 * Now there have been some recent developments in this dynamic, involving one Snipercraft, which may or may not have exacerbated the ongoing "troubles" at the article(s) in question. I personally am still not convinced that the creation of the Snipercraft account, nor it's interactions in the articles were completely "on the level", as the timing and circumstances were way too convenient to take at face value. I might be wrong about this, but something didn't feel right about it.
 * That situation aside, this entire untenable situation between editors needs a more forceful solution at this time. My regards, as always. Edit Centric (talk) 02:27, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * For reference, the thread where the above occurred is Talk:Charles_Whitman. arimareiji (talk) 02:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I won't bother the admin that gets this with all of the volley's that Arimareiji has fired and get to the point. This occurred yesterday and today []. A new user, who followed my edits, reverted or totally changed the meanings of the content, requested Arbitration on the Charles Whitman Talkpage, claiming their writing was better than mine. (Please read it.) I have long suspected that Jwy and Arimareiji were in collusion together, to force changes that Jwy initially suggested and got involved in. After feigning ignorance or other issues, Jwy disappeared and Arimareiji showed up, later to claim as a 30 after he began taking up the same issue. Arimareiji is relentless and unabating in his passive-aggressive style of editing. He can not stifle himself, and will not reason with anyone and always misquotes or mis-applies WP:RULES to suit his purpose. There is no common sense application that he will listen to, and continues speaking, in what appears to be a war of attrition. You better give in or he will talk you into submission. At times, when a discussion has been left, he continues with a few more comments until someone returns, and it all starts over again. We went through a lenghthy RfA with Jwy, Arimareiji posted the content into the article, Jwy edited the content once it was in the article, so I changed the header to reflect what I felt the section read. At this point, I considered the talk page moot, and consensus over the past two weeks of bickering. I even conceded the argument on the talk page. Enter Snipercraft. Almost everyone, including myself, thought there was some merit to some of the edit. However, the disagreement grew back on the talk page, and Arimareiji reverted my reversion. The talk page was not resolved at that point. Follow the path of the few contributions of Snipercraft (note the name also fits the subject content), he cross posts to Jwy, he and Arimareiji have a conversation, and boom, the article page is open for another war. A newbie comes in and reaches a consensus with JWY and Arimareiji, after insulting me and another contributor Wildhartlivie. They were insulting and essentially mocked her and me. My belief is that they gamed the system, a CABAL, or whatever label applies. It became a war of numbers and Jwy and Arimareiji needed another player - enter Snipercraft. As Arimareiji notes in his revert, 3 to 0 consensus, because Wildhartlivie had not weighed in with her opinion of the content of the talk page. I mention on the page, that I do not trust the procedures and way this whole affair has been handled. The above replies to Arimareiji, were really meant to be humorous protests. He acknowledges humor to everyone but me. When I try to make light of something, there is broken rule or passive-agressive question for me. He answers direct questions for other editors, without giving them an opportunity to reply. Then claims WP is open for anyone to reply. I have been around the Whitman page longer than they have and have a grasp of the subject that they can never have. So I know what I can and can not put there. I do protect the page, and also know that I do not own it. So in closing, look at the catalyst today and yesterday, the previous issues went through two WQA's and were both resolved. The issues today and yesterday are about ego's and the suspicious appearance of Snipercraft. Wheeew! Thanks for looking!--Victor9876 (talk) 03:10, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * (Addendum) I made charges of Arima above and just want to show an example from the first WQA. Please note that after Bwilkens responds to Arima, there are additional posts by Arima that have no response. Finally, when Bwilkens does respond, the tone is the same that Arima drew out of me with his peristence and lack of ability to stifle himself. Below is the exchange.--Victor9876 (talk) 04:26, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

(The following x-posted by Victor9876 as thread history, I'm simply providing encapsulation)


 * Arima - give it up now, your replies are becoming disruptive, and you're not helping SOLVE an issue. If you don't believe in AGF then Wikipedia isn't for you.  There are many reasons that might make someone post in the middle of your comments:  a reading disability, lack of knowledge about how edits work, a lack of policy knowledge, etc.  AGF.  ( talk→   Bwilkins / BMW   ←track ) 19:17, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * You might want to look at the pertinent edits before and after it before you respond. He entangles. I ask him to stop, and disentangle. He entangles again, replying "You're welcome, no problem!" I disentangle again, and tell him that his attempt at humor isn't funny. He stops doing it. But somehow, he only realized it today? Please AGF about how long I AGF'ed on this topic - AGF is not meant to cover repeatedly doing the same thing and pretending every time that you didn't know better. arimareiji (talk) 19:25, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, please read back to my original response to you, not to Victor's response to it. arimareiji (talk) 19:27, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * With that, you can rest assured I will leave this alone unless he continues, at which time I will take it to a more appropriate channel. WQA is only for voluntary compliance, and I put you in a bad spot by trying to get you to force anyone to listen. My apologies. arimareiji (talk) 19:31, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Trust me, you would not have liked the original reply to your response to me: good thing there was an edit conflict. And trust me, I recommend that you do not accuse me of not reading "pertinent edits".  I will advise that you take something from this WQA as well: properly explaining issues (most people don't understand the word "refactor", for example) with an editor directly, and not running back for help everytime you perceive a minor issue will help your future cases on WQA, ANI, and anywhere else.  ( talk→   Bwilkins / BMW   ←track ) 19:54, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

(end encapsulation / separation) Edit Centric (talk) 06:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I may have exhausted my WP:AGF on this one. Good thing I'll be away for refill it.  A few exchanges on my talkpage related to this incident as well.  ( talk→   Bwilkins / BMW   ←track ) 08:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * BMW - I genuinely don't know, but openly seems the best way to ask this: Would it be fair to say that since you typed the responses quoted above, that Victor's actions have cast him in a much-different light? Your initial impression, if I understood correctly, was that these could be innocent mistakes and that I was only jumping to conclusions. Do you still believe he's making innocent mistakes, given his responses to Edit Centric and his responses at the bottom of this thread (which is the topic)? arimareiji (talk) 09:15, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * (Apparently moot for the time being, as his page reaffirms that he's not here to answer.) arimareiji (talk) 17:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

CliffNotes version of why I believe BMW is likely to have changed his mind about regarding Victor's actions being innocent mistakes since the first WQA. The enclosed are in addition to the comments listed at the top; same pattern of "I was only joking": arimareiji (talk) 19:15, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sure as arimareiji would admit, Cliff Notes are not the whole story. So allow me to present the whole story []. I honestly hate to do this because Edit Centric and I both apologized in the WQA and he has offered some great suggestions and we have both developed a mutual respect (at least I have) for each other. But as the reviewer will note in the 2nd WQA, after Edit Centric reviewed his own remarks that I responded to, he offered the apology first, I accepted and apologized myself, and Edit Centric asked for who ever came along to close the WQA because he had recused himself for being the one who brought the WQA and was an involved party. BMW came along after the request to close and apparently made comments, not having read the resolution, nor the request to close. Case closed.


 * Now again comes arimareiji and wants to resurrect the issue as a basis for blocking or banning me. As I stated in my first respnse, several paragraphs above, arimareiji can not stop. I mentioned and showed his propensity to continue adding messages when no one answers him. Look at the break from BMW's remarks and arimareiji's new accusations. Twice arimareiji posted until the silence drew his ire, and he wants to fuel the ill-will he has had for me since he joined the Whitman talk page. Snipercraft, the newbie that was a catalyst in this formal complaint, has requested and had his/her user page and user talk page deleted - by request. How odd. However, I did produce the link in my opening statement, and it still has the pertinent information with arimariji's contrib's there.


 * Also, you will note - I have not contributed to the Whitman talk page, nor had any discussions with anyone since this proceeding has begun, except to accept the yellow flag warning from Edit Centric. Arimareiji has, and quite amiciably with Jwy, who also is in the contrib's of the Snipercraft account. Other's have weighed in with great suggestions. I do not believe that BMW nor Edit Centric has any anymosity towards me, nor do I see any one else with ill feelings towards me except arimareiji. He has never posted anything constructive on the article page, nor, anywhere else I have been, to my knowledge. His sole purpose at this time, it appears, is to see his mission of having me banned, accomplished. I am not here asking for anyone to be punished or removed, but at this juncture, I think looking at arimareiji with the eye of the process and seeing his participation as an irritant that helped, in fact was the catalyst of my behavior, and be held to some formal standards as well. Again, I mostly work on the Whitman article, arimareiji has suggested from the beginning that I would eventually be at the least, topic banned. I would ask that arimareiji be banned from the Whitman talk page and article, so future events don't cause anymore friction there or here. This is not my decision to make (a quote from arimareiji to me in one of his opening introductions), but another cursory view of the rebuttals to arimareiji from others might be in order to assess his inability, to see that he is a large part of the problem. Thanks again for looking!--Victor9876 (talk) 22:14, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The preceding combination of insinuations and allegations aren't worth responding to. A quick review of the talk page and archives demonstrates both 1) their blatant inaccuracy and 2) the fact that the diffs and quotes I've cited only scratch the surface of this ongoing pattern. The "whole story" he links to is simply the second WQA, which I had already linked to because it only backs up the quotes I pulled from it.
 * My issue is with Victor's behavior, not with him. He has demonstrated a great deal of knowledge that can be a valuable resource for the topic, if he can lay aside the incivility and defer to consensus in matters where he has CoI from personal involvement. arimareiji (talk) 00:42, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * There has been no previous issue or charge concerning conflict of interest or that he had any personal involvement with Charles Whitman or facts as noted in the article. That he has a personal opinion about issues involved in the article doesn't make it CoI, the policy for which clearly states "Editing in an area in which you have professional or academic expertise is not, in itself, a conflict of interest." That he has some level of personal expertise in the case does not make it CoI. Please don't make insinuations of your own. Wildhartlivie (talk) 01:32, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Not true. In fact, you later responded to it by saying he had convinced you there wasn't one inherent in those statements. arimareiji (talk) 02:07, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Find one of those statements in the Charles Whitman Article. You can't because there is not one there. You are digging up your own accusations and displaying them according to your own personal view of what COI is from Talk Page discussions, not the Encyclopedia. I read the COI and as Wildhartlivie says above from the rules, "Editing in an area in which you have professional or academic expertise is not, in itself, a conflict of interest". In fact, you were the one complaining of a heavy COI, and not anyone else. You were the one threatening to have it come to this, and also saying you did not want to see it happen. Yet, here we are. Do you see the irony in that?--Victor9876 (talk) 02:45, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * And again, arimareiji, what part of any of that indicates that Victor has potential personal gain in this? How are you proposing he might benefit in anyway? He said he interviewed a couple of the policeman involved in an incident that occurred 40+ years ago. He didn't why that was, or that he benefited from it in anyway. He talked to a couple cops. There is nothing - nothing whatsoever - in what you are saying that indicates a WP:CoI based on what the criteria for CoI includes. I talked at length to a writer a few years ago about a couple of his books - does that mean that I can't edit his article here? No it does not. Only if I have something personal to gain from it, would it be a CoI. You continue to attack, dodge, complain, kvetch, about all of this, yet everyone else included has either backed away or didn't choose to comment. Perhaps it is time to consider that you are also biased about the current situation. What is it you think to accomplish here now? Obtaining a chastisement for Victor? Okay. Victor, you screwed up a bit. Don't do it again, or you could conceivably be blocked or banned. He has never had a block or even an official warning on this. All there has been until you posted this complaint was discussion at WP:WQA, which he participated in. He made nice with the other people at the WQA. It's my opinion that you don't intend to let up on this until you can possibly provoke some comment that might get him blocked and don't particularly want to make nice. That's fairly personal and biased in itself. It's starting to look quite vindictive to me and I'm wondering why you continue. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:02, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * This is completely tangential to the pertinent issue of the gross incivility documented in the pink bar above, and I won't be discussing it further past this:


 * Your statements revealing personal CoI wrt McCoy and Lavergne were in Talk, as you already know. The diffs are still there, and are linked. It's completely disingenuous to claim they don't exist because they're not in the article. arimareiji (talk) 02:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You cannot take a statement that he can retrieve the links to a site with content that has been taken down to imply CoI. Have you not heard of internet archives? Yes, they can be retrieved. The statement revealed that he knew how to retrieve them. Anything else, is your synthesis. Personal knowledge of that does not equal personal CoI. In fact, not liking someone doesn't equal CoI. Just to note, you added to your comments by including more diffs. You have not proven CoI, although you have proven you are persistent in provoking this further. My comment about McCoy is posted above. Again, what is it that you want out of this? Shall I go cross-country and beat him with a bullwhip? Anything that you dig out is awash in the dissertations you have posted here and there. And let me ask, how is the posting above a response to what I said, unless it bordered on edit conflicts?  Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:11, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Wildhartlivie - It isn't a response to you, it's a response to Victor. Look at the time stamps; edits by you and Victor split the apparent order of who was answering what. arimareiji (talk) 04:18, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * After I posted that I noticed the time stamps. That's why I said it might have bordered on edit conflicts. it confused me. Wildhartlivie (talk) 04:30, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Sockery and assertion thereof

 * Actually this is a point where I disagree with Livie completely. (Although I usually do- she spends too much time in Michigan being didactic and not enough time in the real world.)  If something is no longer posted, using the Internet Archive should NOT be a valid way to make a reference.  I personally have had Time and Entertainment Weekly take DOWN erroneous articles.  To have persons with excess time like Livie uses them as support via the IA is ludicrous.Actismel (talk) 03:37, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Note to any adminstrator who is looking at this thread: This posting was made by an account I tagged earlier today as a possible sock puppet of User:ColScott, only bolstered by the comment he made of "I personally have had Time and Entertainment Weekly take DOWN erroneous articles" - something some of the past socks of User:ColScott has said before, and this series of edits he made to his own article. This to me constitutes a personal attack and includes what the poster believes is personal information pertaining to where I live. I would request that this tangential post be removed and if anyone would care to, I suspect that sock puppet confirmation would be easily revealed. Thanks. Wildhartlivie (talk) 04:04, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And has been blocked as a sock. Wildhartlivie (talk) 04:30, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

All's well that ends well

 * I just spent a long time looking for arimareiji's link, [] I was answering a request from Jwy, the website came back on line the next day.--Victor9876 (talk) 03:39, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * For the umpteenth time, Wildhartlivie, I do not wish to see him topic-banned, blocked, or banned. That will be inevitable if he continues to treat people the way he has leading up to, during, and through two WQAs. But as Edit Centric noted previously, being brought up twice at WQA in one week by two different editors made no impact on him whatsoever. He was told point-blank twice there to stop WP:ATTACKing. This forum is the last place I can think of where he might listen.
 * In response to your claim that I'm trying to provoke him, here are the pertinent thread sections that prompted bringing this to AN/I. I believe any neutral party would see it the other way around from how you see it:

Quoted from Talk:Charles Whitman

 * 3. Perhaps most to the point of all, echoing John's good question - do you have a specific remedy to propose here? arimareiji (talk) 18:05, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It should be obvious Jwy, I do not consider you or Arima as "good" faith editors! Yes, I have a specific remedy to propose - I just can't do it here!--Victor9876 (talk) 18:09, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, that would make resolution difficult amongst ourselves, so I'm taking a break while I decide what would be my best next step. (John User:Jwy talk) 18:18, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * We have some nice high cliffs here in North Carolina. I could point you towards a few if you would like, out of courtesy of course. LOL! It's a joke Arima, don't respond with your usual huffing and puffing.--Victor9876 (talk) 18:24, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Victor: If you can't openly propose the remedy you desire on this specific page, there are other forums. If you can't openly propose the remedy you desire on any WP forum, then you might want to consider 1) why that's true, and 2) whether insinuating it is any better than openly proposing it.
 * Wrt your immediately-preceding comment, I've noted to you before that adding "LOL!" does not excuse incivility. However, on this occasion your comment is sufficiently indecipherable that it doesn't qualify as overt incivility. arimareiji (talk) 18:34, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry Ari, I was watching a cartoon and was laughing my arse off. It took precedence over your response. So, since I was distracted, would you please repeat what you wrote a little louder?--Victor9876 (talk) 18:44, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

(undent) Victor, could you please explain 1) where the reason is stated in WP:3RR that you're granted an exception (per your edit summary), and 2) why you think it's not consensus when three editors think the edits are a good idea and you don't? arimareiji (talk) 18:45, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Darn TV! I'm sorry Ari, what did say again?--Victor9876 (talk) 19:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

...
 * Additionally, Victor - could you explain why the lede now needs a wide smattering of fact tags, when its synonymous (but more awkwardly-phrased) ancestor apparently didn't? arimareiji (talk) 23:51, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * More important questions than yours are: Is Marvin Gaye? Does Helen Hunt? Is Billy Wilder? Does Tom Cruise? Does Gregory Peck? Is Barry White? I don't have all the answers like you do. Make up your own answers, you usually do.--Victor9876 (talk) 00:34, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Are you formally giving up on WP:CIVIL, and discussion versus edit-warring? arimareiji (talk) 00:38, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll be Lee and you can Saddam Hussein.--Victor9876 (talk) 00:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)'''


 * I made my declaration above already. You, Jwy and Snipercraft have gamed the system, so no need for my input, just to be over-ruled by a cabal and not WP:RULES!--Victor9876 (talk) 01:07, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

End quote.

Wildhartlivie, in response to your question of "how is the posting above a response to what I said, unless it bordered on edit conflicts?" - it wasn't. It was a response to Victor. Look at the time stamps of the comments. You inserted yours above mine, probably unintentionally. A later edit by Victor compounded it by splitting the tab levels, further confusing apparent order. arimareiji (talk) 04:03, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no valid purpose in reposting such a large block of text when you've already linked to the talk page and posted some of that at the beginning of this thread. This is becoming as disruptive as anything. What is it that you want? You just continue to post complaints but have yet to actually say what you want. Wildhartlivie (talk) 04:04, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You asserted I was trying to provoke him - the actual text shows it's the other way around, with no room for questioning. Quoting what actually happened is a rather valid purpose when you continue to assert something that is contradicted by what actually happened. arimareiji (talk) 04:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The actual text shows that I answered Jwy's question from the top. I did not consider you, Jwy, or Snipercraft as good faith editors. But you had to keep pressing the issue with other questions. My answers were an attempt to amusingly let you know, that I was not going to answer your questions. But you pressed on and on. I finally had to re-iterate my declaration with my observations, again.--Victor9876 (talk) 04:40, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that you meant it to be amusing to anyone except yourself. I and others had warned you many times before then that incivility in the guise of "joking" isn't funny or civil, but you've continued even in this thread. Telling someone to "stifle" is funny on All in the Family, but not on Wikipedia. arimareiji (talk) 04:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent)What about your statement to Wildhartlivie to "stuff it with a sock"? But that doesn't need to be answered Arima because this has gone on for weeks now and the game has to end sometime. Your "quid pro quo" line of questioning is never returned with a straight answer and always ends up as "quid pro only". I do not believe this will end with a "de novo".

'''To any administrator following this thread. Please close this and post your conclusions. I will accept whatever the outcome may be.'''--Victor9876 (talk) 05:18, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * That was actually "put a sock in" insinuations that I was a sock, after she asserted (plausibly inadvertently) something that would constitute an accusation of being John/Jwy's sock. That was a while back, and that's an odd way for you to call for a halt to quid pro quo assertions that you've been the primary source of. (In fact, it seems to be the entire basis of your response.) arimareiji (talk) 05:31, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully a conclusion: Victor, question - In your defense, I note that you have stopped editing other editors' comments. If you're willing to continue that, and put a permanent end to sarcastically mocking fellow editors, that would resolve this completely. Are you willing to do so? arimareiji (talk) 05:22, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I would support such a resolution here. Should further issues come up about OR, which has been my main concern, I have discovered WP:NORN which should get us faster, more directed help on that topic. (John User:Jwy talk) 05:39, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Start: Cross-posted by Victor from his talk page before blanking
 * "I've put up one last comment at AN/I. It would be good if you respond one way or another, but it's up to you. Whether or not you respond, I'll be leaving that thread alone - if you want the last word, it's yours. arimareiji (talk) 12:41, 4 March 2009 (UTC)"
 * End of cross-post


 * Who's the authority here? Arimareiji comes into the talk page as an editor, then refers to himself as a 3:O, then strikes that, returns to being an editor involved in edit-warring, answers questions that are intended for clarification from specific editors, talks on behalf of WQA resolvers without their permission after he brings a WQA, and now he offers a behavior modification resolution that he himself has been guilty of, and associated with a less than honest Snipercraft who disappears. Now he offers me the last word. Also Jwy shows up as an endorser who had contact with Snipercraft and supports arimareiji. Thanks! I'll wait for an administrator's decision. That's my last word(s).--Victor9876 (talk) 18:22, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Tollund man biting newbies, abusive edit summaries, VILE warnings
Tollund man blocked by Dominic as a sockpuppet of Pickbothmanlol. Sjakkalle  (Check!)  14:54, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

user is correcting vandalism, but the non-standard warnings he issues are quite offensive. His edit summaries sometime threaten violence and death. perhaps someone with a little more authority and eloquence than me can explain proper wiki etiquette ?. Wuhwuzdat (talk) 16:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Wuhwuzdat, thanks for reporting this. Snigbrook has left the user a note. PhilKnight (talk) 16:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

(e/c)I agree, some of these warnings are highly distasteful, esp. this but also this this and this. He has been warned now, so let's see how he responds. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 16:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I've also toned down his user page. PhilKnight (talk) 16:31, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

<font color=#003333>(WQA Moderator Comments) - PhilKnight, I noted your comment about the content removal "hopefully being within Wiki policy". When in doubt, refer to WP:USER and WP:UP. In this case, the best idea might be to draw the new user's attention to the offensive content (tactfully!) and ask them to remove it. In this particular case, what the user does with this would go a long way in determining their motivations and intentions in Wiki. I have some major concerns after reading this user's interactions. The account is barely newborn, and came in with "both guns blazing" as it were. This bears a weather eye, in any case. Also, you might want to explain to them that they're not an administrator (any more than I am!), they seem to be under that impression gaguing (sic) from their response. Edit Centric (talk) 17:40, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Just reviewing this, maybe it's just me, but why do a I get the feeling we are being trolled by this user? New user, as EC just stated coming in "guns blazing" with a "holier-than-thou" attitude. I know, AGF and all, but something seems a bit odd.


 * <font color=#003333>(WQA Moderator Comments) - Well again, let's keep an eye out on this one, with WP:AGF as our base. If it's trolling, it will definitely be vetted out in the long haul. If otherwise (and I'm being an optimist here!), this could develop into a good thing. Either way, Semper Vigilans... Edit Centric (talk) 18:01, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * <font color=#003333>(WQA Moderator Comments/UPDT) - Checked his edits since being warned, the incivility has toned down, but is still questionable. Special:Contributions/Tollund_man
 * One of my former supervisors told me something once, in regards to difficult customers; "Not all money is good money". Edit Centric (talk) 18:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * He's improving, but it would appear that he still misses the point. Wuhwuzdat (talk) 21:06, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Uh huh. (Shaking my head,) I don't know what else we can do with this one, I provided him with direct links to the vandalism templates, and to the coaching section on warnings. My heart sinks... Edit Centric (talk) 21:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppet investigations/EmilEikS
Per a recently completed checkuser result, requesting admin review and intervention. Perhaps semiprotection at Mae West and Talk:Mae West, Hippie and Talk:Hippie and/or soft rangeblocks. A disruptive sockpuppeteer, previously conduct RfC'd and CU-confirmed, returned and resumed disruption. Durova Charge! 02:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I concur with the semi-protection and also urge rangeblocks on the IPs. This person has been persistent over the months in pressing POV content onto the Mae West article, and with this recent issue attempted to "vote-stack" through sock activity regarding the inclusion of the name Lars Jacob in an image for the West article, as well as creating vast amounts of disruption on various pages. The IP 217.209.96.57 sock, removed the posting to User talk:EmilEikS concerning the findings of the sock puppet investigation posted by Jehochman in response to Requests for comment/EmilEikS, as well as posted alternately on Talk:Hippie here and here, continuing discussion also engaged by User:EmilEikS (who has already been blocked as a sock), pressing the POV inclusion of a photo of Lars Jacob/Jacob Truedson Demitz and relating information not available elsewhere regarding this person, effectively trying to coat rack the importance of Jacob/Demitz onto articles that have no other connection to him or at best, tangential connection. The confirmation that 217.209.96.57 is a sock to the other IPs, and the connection to User:EmilEikS means this has been an issue of EmilEikS avoiding the indefinite block for sock puppetry applied in November to his sock User:Fiandonca account and his resignation in order to avoid the issues outlined in the WP:RfC mentioned above, where the sock puppetry was revealed. Wildhartlivie (talk) 04:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I wanted to add another IP with the same initial set of numbers who has been editing the same articles and same goals, that of 217.209.96.84. Wildhartlivie (talk) 08:53, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * These allegations of disruptive behavior, past and present, are fabrications = completely unfounded. See usercheck discussion here! Durova is way out of bounds in this case and is showing obvious bias. 217.209.96.212 (talk) 12:10, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

The disruption continues: overwriting part of another editor's signature, frivolous accusations of stalking changing another editor's post. Durova Charge! 16:21, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I've rangeblocked 217.209.96.0/25 for one month (should be uncontroversial). Still looking into it. Peter <b style="color:#02b;">Symonds</b> ( talk ) 17:08, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Looking into it further, the majority of disruption was coming from this range. Hopefully semi-protection isn't needed now, but if it becomes bad again, let me know or post to WP:RFPP. Thanks, Peter <b style="color:#02b;">Symonds</b> ( talk ) 17:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Some eyes, please
I am noticing that some edit-warring is occurring in Dan Schlund. The article was a recent AfD candidate twice, surviving twice, and it now appears that some folk who didn't like the outcome of the AfD are working extra hard to redirect the BLP article to a more general (and less connected) article. There is little in the way of seeking a consensus in the article discussion. One side is calling the redirects vandalism, and the other isn't saying much at all, except for attacking the editors. An RfPP was already filed, to await (and somewhat force) folk to the discussion table; still waiting on the protection. Maybe someone could step in and protect the article or a little bit in the unredirected state, so the article of the BLP remains live until some agreement is reached? - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  15:43, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Fully protected by Philippe. Marking as resolved. Xymmax So let it be written   So let it be done  16:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks much. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  16:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Relisting of AfD nominated by IP/SPA vandal
Special:Contributions/216.15.36.81 vandalized Garrison Courtney. IP was warned. IP then requested assistance in nominating page for deletion. This was declined. At the same time (06:48), Pilkington1984 registered. See Special:Contributions/Pilkington1984.

Pilkington1984 then nominated Garrison Courtney for deletion, improperly as an MfD. Zetawoof then helpfully created the AfD on behalf of Pilkington. The nomination made no proper deletion arguments, the only alleged issue was the verification of the title, which has subsequently been thoroughly confirmed. However, please do not debate the notability of the article here, do so on the AfD page if you wish to participate there. My only concern here is process. The defective nomination is mentioned because helping inexperienced editors to create a disruptive AfD is, itself, disruptive. However, the original AfD proceeded with little attention. Nevertheless, the nominator voted in it, again (besides nomination), as the original IP editor who had vandalized the article. Without that sock !vote and the SPA nominator, the !vote was 2 to 1 for Keep. This AfD would normally have closed as Keep or as No Consensus.

However, 5 days having elapsed, [[User:Ron Ritzman] relisted the AfD. This was a blatant disregard of AfD process. I have warned Ritzman. AfD when notability is marginal, can be highly disruptive, wasting great amounts of editor time for articles that are, by the conditions of the problem, marginal. Ritzman is not an administrator, and a relisting "to generate more thorough discussion" by definition wastes more time, and is only warranted when there are only a very few !votes for Delete, or no !votes at all other than the nominator.

A vandal/SPA has managed to disrupt the community, with the assistance of two editors. The clearest problem, though, is Ritzman's relisting. That AfD should have been left to close normally, which would have been minimally disruptive. AfD is bad enough without this serious misunderstanding of "consensus" as it relates to AfDs. '''Special:Contributions/Ron Ritzman shows a series of these abusive relistings today. It should stop immediately.''' Please confirm my warning to him and undo improper relistings. I will undo what I can, please ask me to stop if I'm in error. --Abd (talk) 17:35, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, some of the relistings may be appropriate. I haven't actually undone any yet, and I've got other stuff to do. I'm still a bit concerned about what "may be appropriate," I'd prefer to leave anything marginal to an administrator to decide. (What's wrong with just leaving the AfD there for a while? Otherwise we are generating debate for the sake of generating debate i.e., "finding consensus." --Abd (talk) 17:49, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't looked through the others but I think the relisting of Garrison Courtney that you use as an example was the right call. Whether a non-admin should have done it or not I don't know. -Djsasso (talk) 17:53, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you looked at the vandalism and sock vote aspects? BTW, thanks for changing the section heading, it's a little better. --Abd (talk) 17:58, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Non admins have just as much a right to relist discussions as admins do. We discussed this the last time we tried to take a crack at changing the relisting policy. Consensus seemed to be that relisting shouldn't be done where a "no consensus" close is more appropriate, but that when a debate (Even a debate with 1-2 participants) is relisted, that isn't a guarantee of 5 more days. Anyone can close the debate once they judge that some consensus has been reached or is not likely to be reached. Protonk (talk) 18:03, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

While I'm not a fan of non-admin closings of AfDs (those closures often cause more problems than they solve), I have no problems with non-admins relisting, especially in a case like this. My take on relisting is that if there have been few participants or there is a good chance that a few more days will let a consensus form, relisting is definitely the way to go. It's a far better use of everyone's time to extend the debate a few days than it is to close as no consensus and have the article come right back to AfD in a few weeks. And if the relisting was a bad idea, an admin can always come along and close the AfD, so little harm was done.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:21, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree about non-admins, on principle. (I'd have However, AfD process can be abused. What would have been done if the nominator had been IP? Might as well have been! And a glance at contribs showed that the nominator had first vandalized the article? I have a simple request. Please look at the evidence presented with the report before stating that the relisting seems okay.


 * I came to have a separate question about relisting process, I haven't paid much attention to AfD process over most of the last year, and maybe I didn't have such a good understanding of it in the first place. But it seemed to be designed for minimal disruption. Relisting prolongs debate, and extended debate over deleting articles often generates more heat than light. I.e., there may be some improvement to an article, and then it's gone. Wasted time. Or there is no improvement and lots of editors commenting. Wasted time, no improvement. In the end, it is only one article out of two million. I'm not distressed if it's deleted or if it is kept. I didn't like that the nomination implied a false claim of position with the DEA, and so I went to the article and sourced what is there, to make it verifiable, if it's kept, or even if it's not (it might come back, or, perhaps, as I'd prefer to deletion, it might be merged). Merge could have been accomplished by one editor with possibly no debate at all. We have serious matters of content that are decided by fewer editors than have participated in the AfD.

It's clear from the present AfD debate that the community is divided on Keep or Delete, the likely outcome is No Consensus at this point, but it's the luck of the draw, sometimes. Now, what would have happened without the relisting? Not much different, except that maybe the result would have been Keep, depends. Without relisting, the AfD might have sat overtime, or not. What I find problematic is the idea that there is value in trying to find "consensus" when clearly the community isn't ready for it. As I understood it, the default situation with all articles is Keep. There are countless articles where some substantial segment of the community would want to Delete.

Relisting is a decision by an editor that we need to find consensus on the issue; in this case, that the community should bring broad attention to the suggestion of an IP vandal. Otherwise, leaving it alone leaves it to a responsible closer. Relisting postpones that and just adds more debate. In any case, if someone doesn't like the result, there is DRV, or there is simply waiting (with a Keep, more often) and renominating after a decent delay. Often by that time a consensus has developed. By that time the article might be more mature. Etc. Like I said above, I thought I understood the process. Maybe I didn't. --Abd (talk) 19:39, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I didn't bother to read most of this discussion since I only really have one thing to say. Relisting an AfD does not cause harm. If an admin disagrees, they can close it. This is really a non issue. It does not "waste another editors time" since you are not obligated to prolong discussion, nor are you required to follow the reslisting templates suggestions. Have a nice day.  Syn  ergy 19:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

For a discussion with a small number of participants taking sharply opposed view, relisting is a very useful course and should be done more frequently. It always attracts the attention of other editors not particularly involved in the topic who can provide their possibly more objective evaluations. Trying to judge consensus on three or four comments is often difficult. It's better to have one afd and decide. Relisting is also appropriate if there are major improvements late in the discussion, or if nobody at all has made a policy based argument one way or another. It decreases the number of articles that need to go to deletion review. The times when it is wrong is when there is clear consensus from a number of editors with a substantial discussion of the points, and it is hoped by someone that a different consensus might develop. Closing as nonconsensus without relisting is for those cases where there has been a full  discussion of the issues, and it is clear that there is no agreement likely to be reached., In this particular instance, the relist was correct. DGG (talk) 20:14, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, DGG. Correct if the vandalism, SPA nomination, and the sock voting in the original AfD is considered? I do disagree on the benefits of relisting, except in certain situations, but we can discuss that elsewhere. --Abd (talk) 21:07, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Do we have a guideline on relisting? I didn't see it quickly. If not, we should have one. I didn't find information on how to relist or the allowed and disallowed reasons at all. Can anyone simply extend the time for discussion, regardless? --Abd (talk) 21:34, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You'll find the guideline at Deletion_process-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  21:47, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. My concern has been increased, not decreased, by reading that. What is see is one editor routinely relisting a whole series of expiring AfDs. Relisting is a form of close, the guideline implies that it is a closer who makes the decision. I'd be concerned if I see one editor closing many AfDs at the same time; could the editor do the necessary research? A close is not simply a glance at !votes, rather the arguments and evidence are considered and checked, unless, sometimes, the consensus is snowing. In the particular instance, the relisting was that of an AfD which probably should have been speedy closed at the outset, as being the nomination of a vandal. There were enough !votes in the AfD to make relisting more questionable (the guideline says "only one or two commenting editors (including the nominator)," whereas there were four, plus the IP sock of the nominator), and when the sock vote -- which would be blatantly obvious to anyone who did the required footwork for a closing -- was excluded, it was two to one for Keep. Given that Keep isn't forever, and unless the closer thought the arguments crystal clear in the other direction, a Keep or possibly No Consensus closure would have been the least disruptive. Instead, we have this. I worked on the article to source it, in spite of my normal policy against fixing articles under the AfD gun, just because it was there, but then I noticed the vandalism and the SPA account created just to nominate, and the sock vote, and that's why I became concerned about relisting. --Abd (talk) 23:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I would like to apologize for starting this dramafest. My only purpose in relisting AFD discussions is to give more time for a consensus to form to debates with few or no comments and I don't look that closely at who's nominating and who's !voting because unlike Abd, I never viewed it as a close. I also close AFD discussions and I'm a lot more careful with those, particularly with all the recent drama surrounding non admin closures.

Have I made mistakes relisting? Maybe I have but this is the first time I've been yelled at for one. I always felt that if someone thinks that an AFD discussion shouldn't have been relisted, then he can just close it. In the case of the Garrison Courtney AFD, here's what I saw at the time it was relisted. 2 "keeps", 2 "deletes" (one unsigned), one editor not sure. At the time relisting seemed like the prudent thing to do. As for how fast they I relist, I use Mr Zman's script which is pretty fast. My goal is to get all the short debates relisted onto a fresh log because they tend to attract more comments that way. I'm not the only one who does it this way either, Aitias and Juliancolton also tend to relist a lot of AFDs early and quickly.

Once again, I'm sorry for all the drama I've caused. In the future, I'll look at the discussions a little bit more closely before relisting. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 02:35, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Ron, I regret any distress. Using a script to relist isn't a problem, in itself, but a relisting is a form of close (see WP:RELIST and requires similar care. Earlier today you relisted 10 AfDs in 5 minutes. I don't think it's possible to do them justice in anything like this time, 5 minutes per AfD would be brief, except in clear cases -- in which case it isn't "No Consensus," is it? I also appreciate that you are putting a lot of work into helping with AfD process, but it is not necessarily better to discuss an AfD more widely, if the result isn't likely to be different; and there is nothing wrong with letting an AfD sit for a decision; relisting is supposed to be relatively unusual. I added a comment to Wikipedia_talk:Deletion_process based on this incident, perhaps you'd like to join that discussion. --Abd (talk) 02:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * One more point, now that the AfD has been closed as No Consensus by MBisanz. If the original AfD had been left, it would probably have closed with a total of five editors commenting, as Keep or possibly as No Consensus, perhaps depending on whether the closer noticed the sock puppet vote. Most would have. There was more participation than the usual standard for WP:RELIST. Because it was relisted, it consumed far more space, with 16 editors commenting and more back-and-forth. Most likely shift: from Keep to No Consensus, which is a Keep, just not quite as nailed down. Much more fuss, same effective result. The idea that we should keep discussing each article until there is a consensus is ... not practical, the community is not united on what notabilty means and how it should apply, but, meanwhile, we have a project to build and maintain, so we should make our decisions as non-disruptively as possible, and, for this, very often smaller is better. Basically, if there is no consensus for Delete, or clear policy reasons to Delete, articles stay until consensus appears, and there is no particular value in speeding this up.--Abd (talk) 03:06, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * And here's another point of view for Ron and Abd to consider. I do a fair amount of work at AfD, both in categorizing and closing debates. I've seen a lot of debates that Ron has relisted, and I've agreed with 99% of them. Frankly, when there are only 1 or 2 opinions in a debate, it doesn't take a huge amount of time to decide that consensus isn't there. With a script, all it takes is one mouse click after that decision is reached. It certainly doesn't take 5 minutes per AfD to decide to relist. Keep vs. delete, perhaps, but not relist. Yes, care is important, but the track record has been good here.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comment, Fabrictramp. I'm quite ready to believe that. Note that Ron has apologized (and this really helps me to abandon any lingering doubts about his work). What this has raised for me is the issue of script-assisted relistings; as I pointed out, yesterday Ron relisted 10 AfDs in 5 minutes. I am not claiming that these were "incorrect." A relisting, however, should take almost as much work as a full close, and relisting is a close. If it isn't, WP:RELIST should be rewritten! The subject AfD wasn't "1 or 2 opinions," it was four or five, and some 1 or 2 opinion AfDs should be fully closed. I'd argue that, for example, a nominated AfD with no comment, unless the closer agrees that the AfD is solidly based, should be closed as No Consensus. If the closer agrees with the delete, then the closer could relist and then comment, paving the way for the next step in the process. If script assist is going to be used to close AfDs, quickly, there should be very specific guidelines, a list of things that should be checked before relisting.
 * Under some circumstances, relisting could take less than 5 minutes. I really doubt that a sound judgment can be made in many AfDs in thirty seconds, in many cases, but perhaps I'm wrong. We need standards. The subject AfD, here, shows that.
 * I'm a big fan of ignore all rules but when it comes to what we do with automated tools, which encourage snap judgments, we've lost the value of IAR, which is to support and encourage active and individual judgment.
 * Snap judgment here is to just look at the !votes instead of weighing the arguments and checking the evidence. That is what I infer from 2 relistings per minute. I would suggest that a relister should always then comment (and, of course, shouldn't be one who has commented previously). If one is going to check the AfD out enough to have an opinion that it should be relisted, then why waste the valuable insight by not commenting? A relisting should represent an opinion that Delete is reasonable, not that No Consensus has been found. It is an action predicated on an opinion that the nominated deletion should be discussed further. It would be, in effect, an opinion that the article should be deleted, but that no consensus has been found. Otherwise, I'd say, let someone who will express an opinion make the decision. --Abd (talk) 18:31, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ironically, when I first started doing this, the number of relists I had to do concerned me as well. Therefore I made this proposal. There was some support for it but unfortunately not enough. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:30, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Not ironic, actually. Ron, you aren't in "hot water" as you mentioned elsewhere. You are clearly working for the benefit of the project. The discussion on the Pump was like a lot of Wikipedia discussions, it went nowhere, because nobody closed it with a conclusion. The conclusion there might have been No Consensus, which would meant that the topic could reasonably be brought up again. Personally, I think that discussion was incomplete, and that's why there was No Consensus, the full range of issues were not considered and addressed in detail. Now, as to the issue, I'm coming to think that automatic relisting decisions, which is more or less what Ron is doing, when there is no consensus for Delete, and a closer doesn't look at it and at the evidence and conclude the article should be deleted, are a waste of time. They don't save any significant work. Someone will eventually have to close anyway. The question asked at the Pump was a little different: can a closer close as Delete if there has been a nomination and no support for delete (and also no keep)? Ron was arguing that it was like an expired Prod, which is reasonable. But the decision about what to do cannot be based on !votes. It must be an independent judgment by a closer who is uninvolved, and who reviews the arguments and evidence, including such evidence as who nominated it -- SPA vandal? A closer could possibly close as Delete with no other support than the Closer's independently formed opinion, and a non-admin closer could then Prod the article. We tend to forget the closer, as if a closer was just a robot which analyzes the !votes. For an AfD to close with a deletion, there must be at least two editors who concur with Delete: the nominator and the closer. Now, for various reasons, we may want there to be at least three: nominator, a delete !voter, and the closer. We should always remember that article creation, not to mention participation in improving it, represents a virtual Keep !vote, and we value consensus, and that's why we might want three to delete, minimum, instead of just two.
 * I've been discussing this with Ron, and I've suggested that one should never close as Delete unless one is personally convinced that the article should be deleted, based on a review of the evidence and policy. It's very important that a closing admin (or non-admin closer) be responsible for the decision, because the least disruptive way to get an article undeleted is to go to the closer and ask for it. With a good closer and a polite request, accompanied by sufficient evidence and cogent argument, it should be easy. If the closer says, "It wasn't my decision, it was the community's decision," it's like a brick wall; it's expensive (wastes project labor) to ask the community (WP:DRV simply involves more fuss), and Wikipedia structure is generally based on closes that are the individual responsibility of the closer, an independent decision, informed by the community, but not as a rubber stamp for some imagined community voice. You really want to know what the community thinks, you put in in a banner that all readers see. We don't do that often, for very good reason. And even then, it's only advice from the community. Somebody makes the decision.
 * I'm not suggesting that an admin seeing a snowing AfD can't just close it that way, and I won't deal with that circumstance here. We are really discussing AfDs with small participation, as little as none but the nominator. Standard deliberative practice, worked out over centuries, is that a motion without a second fails, no further discussion. I'm recommending that the standard AfD period be extended to 7 days from 5, because of better fit with editor schedules. If no concurrent opinion appears within 7 days, the assumption should be no support for it, it's a rebuttable assumption. If a closer looks at that, investigates the solitary nomination, and concludes that the article should be deleted, the closer could recuse from closing and !vote delete, providing the evidence (if it wasn't already there) or confirming the evidence and arguments. Leave it for someone else to decide. With the system of personal responsibility that I imagine we have, this, then, would require three editors to agree on a deletion before it would happen: the nominator, the original investigator who might have closed as Keep based on lack of a confirmation, but who decided after investigation that Delete was appropriate, -- or any other independent editor -- and then the final closer, who would also have done the same. I do not see any efficiency at all in relisting, and no reasonable expectation of improvement in outcomes. If my article is deleted, and I don't like it, I can ask the closer to reverse the decision. Some have. And if they don't, I still have WP:DRV or sometimes I can just get the article userfied and fix it, and sometimes get that back into user space with very little fuss, having satisfied the objections in the original AfD. Basic Wikipedia principle: do it in the least disruptive way possible, which generally means involving only the minimum number of necessary editors.
 * And, in case you are wondering, my favorite topic was deleted. My comments are coming from a recognition that Wikipedia must become more efficient, and recognizing the value of the system of distributed responsibility that we have is essential in maintaining what efficiency we have. There are other inefficiencies that will probably take new structure and procedures, or else we will continue to burn out editors and administrators. --Abd (talk) 21:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Legal stuff and deletion
Could someone please take a look at this for me, User talk:Jac16888?. Sounds important, but I really don't have the time, energy or motivation to look into this. Thanks--<font color="Blue">Jac <font color="Green">16888 Talk 22:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I dare say the IP address of the account that created the article might be useful to the polict department investigating, but since they've already got the fake email it would probably add little to their knowledge. Other than that, I don't see anything we can do. <b style="color:black;">Black Kite</b> 23:07, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What the police need is a checkuser on, but it sounds like something for the foundation's legal department to handle. Toddst1 (talk) 23:38, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I've taken the liberty of alerting the foundation. JoshuaZ (talk) 04:52, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * In an instance such as this, Mr. Kahn needs to contact us himself to inquire how to get information relating to the accounts that created that article. Bastique demandez 19:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Serial redundant article creation without discussion, unsourced file uploading
has been steadily going through Turkish sports clubs and creating new articles with the same content but with an abbreviated name (like Güngören B.S. vs. Güngören Belediyespor), without discussion. This has resulted in several pairs of nearly identical articles for Turkish sports clubs. In addition, the user has today been uploading a large quantity of the sports clubs' logos with no copyright information. The user is continuing to do both without discussion or explanation, even after multiple warnings, so I bring the issue here. -kotra (talk) 19:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This user has apparentll ignored requests to communicate with him for days. I have placed a 48 hour block on his account to get him to at least explain this problematic editing.  He looks like a Newbie and he may be trying to do something valid, however we cannot know that, nor can we help him do it right, if he just insists on ignoring requests from others to stop and discuss.  I would recommend to Kotra or other involved editors to go through his duplicate articles and redirect them to the main articles; I do not know enough about these teams to do it well myself, and it looks like you might, and redirecting may get him in the future to edit the "right" article.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  20:32, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Block of User:Wubbabubba as a sock of an unknown other user by User:YellowMonkey
User Wubbabubba has been around for at least two years plus in wikipedia. see details. The account was blocked as a sock of an unknown editor. We have no evidence of any request for check user, the account voting in using its alleged multiple accounts, any mal practice. I just don’t know how Wikipedia blocking policies work anymore. What is the process, where is the transparency? The user account does not reflect that it is being blocked for sock puppetry with the appropriate tags. It does not lead us to the check user results. Taprobanus (talk) 19:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * See YellowMonkey's logs:


 * 04:56, 4 March 2009 YellowMonkey (talk | contribs | block) blocked Cookie90 (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ (sockpuppetry) (unblock | change block)
 * 04:56, 4 March 2009 YellowMonkey (talk | contribs | block) blocked ShimShem (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ (sockpuppetry) (unblock | change block)
 * 04:56, 4 March 2009 YellowMonkey (talk | contribs | block) blocked DriveDelta (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ (sockpuppetry) (unblock | change block)
 * 04:56, 4 March 2009 YellowMonkey (talk | contribs | block) blocked Furrycoater (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ (sockpuppetry) (unblock | change block)
 * 04:56, 4 March 2009 YellowMonkey (talk | contribs | block) blocked Roomiebroom (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ (sockpuppetry) (unblock | change block)
 * 04:56, 4 March 2009 YellowMonkey (talk | contribs | block) blocked Clubover (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ (sockpuppetry) (unblock | change block)
 * 04:56, 4 March 2009 YellowMonkey (talk | contribs | block) blocked Wubbabubba (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ (sockpuppetry) (unblock | change block)

From the CU, I have ✅ that all accounts were being operated on the same IP addresses with the same user agent, editing the same articles broadly speaking. It does appear quite suspicious that this user operated multiple accounts to edit a limited group of articles for a seemingly unknown reason. I've posed this question on Clubover's user talk page. Another thing: instead of coming to AN/I, why don't you just ask YellowMonkey on his talk page? This circuitous block review isn't going to resolve matters faster. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 19:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Checked some of them, they all seem to be interested in similar things such as Bollywood except User:Wubbabubba with whom I had interacted in the past which dealt only with conflict or history related articles. I have not come across the other accounts at all. Just like u, I have no idea why if it is the same person should operate this many accounts for no apparent reason except they did not want to be outed or traced for editing conflict related articles. We know what happens to editors who edit controversal articles. There is always the threat of outing by those who dont agree with their edits. We could have avoided this question in ANI, if the blocking admin had used the WP:SOCK guidelines of tagging the account with the approriate sock tag. Thanks Taprobanus (talk) 19:55, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Secthayrabe & User:Secthaycaan
User:Secthayrabe repeatedly recreated Nabil Rastini until it was salted, at which point he started doing variants such as Nabil' Rastini & Nabil A Rastini. I gave him an only warning for inappropriate pages. The extremely similarly named account, User:Secthaycaan, has recreated Nabil' Rastani. (I initially considered this a vandalism issue, but AIV told me to come here.) Jomasecu talk <sub style="margin-left:-4.2ex">contribs 19:37, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Secthayrabe's talk page says he has retired; but he still has User:Secthayrabe/Nabil Rastani in his user space. JohnCD (talk) 20:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, both users' pages say retired, yet they continue to edit. Their recent contribs are almost entirely related to Nabil Rastini. Jomasecu talk <sub style="margin-left:-4.2ex">contribs 20:31, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

File:Travis_(chimpanzee).jpg
Can someone please review this image (and its listing at ) and possibly delete it outright as a copyvio which would never have a fair use claim. The uploader clearly doesn't understand WP:IUP and continues to insert it in articles, which I fear puts the project at legal risk. Thanks. -- Zim <b style="color:darkgreen;">Zala</b> Bim <sup style="color:black;">talk  12:46, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I hear the chimp is threatening to sue. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:37, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Nothing new. Primates tend to sue far more than the forgiving canine. Felines, on the other hand, tend to not sue, but just ""remove" the problem. ;) - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  15:54, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Let him sue. Bananas and old tires are cheap. PhGustaf (talk) 17:53, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ya can "spank the monkey," but is "stabbing the chimp" comparable? Edison (talk) 01:42, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

School closed due to wiki threat.
<div class="boilerplate metadata" style="background-color: #edeaff; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #8779DD;">
 * The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The Foundation is aware of it, the Communications Committee is aware of it, and they're the only two sets of people who should concern themselves with this. No need to create a song-and-dance which just encourages silliness. Daniel (talk) 00:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Apperently today a school was closed due to a threat made on a Wikipedia page today. I didn't see this mentioned anywhere yet, so i figured that it might be useful if a few more people knew about it, in case the press might dive into it. --Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 00:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Lovely. Has the Foundation been notified?  I assume they most likely know but just in case?--Wehwalt (talk) 00:19, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * They know about it. Daniel (talk) 00:25, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

CorenSearchBot
<div class="boilerplate metadata discussion-archived" style="background-color: #f5f3ef; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

This appears to be running but the operator is not responding to messages on either his talk or the bot's talk  - I was under the impression that bots should not be run if the operator is not available to respond to queries in a timely fashion. Can someone block the bot please. Exxolon (talk) 23:05, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Just one false positive? Comon now. I'd be more worried if it was a pile-on, but it isn't. I'm sorry that Coren isn't available at his desk 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. We do have lives, you know. <font color="#CC0000">seicer &#x007C; <font color="#669900">talk  &#x007C; <font color="#669900">contribs  23:06, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not what Bot policy (which is an official policy) says - "Users who read messages or edit summaries from bots will generally expect a high standard of cordiality and information, backed up by prompt and civil help from the bot's operator if queries arise. Bot operators should take care in the design of communications, and ensure that they will be able to meet any inquiries resulting from the bot's operation cordially, promptly, and appropriately." (Emphasis mine). Exxolon (talk) 23:08, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess that really depends on your definition of prompt. Prompt response in this (fairly low priority) case I would say is 48 hours. – xeno  ( talk ) 23:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You won't find an administrator that will block a bot for one false positive because the operator won't reply in a matter of an hour. <font color="#CC0000">seicer &#x007C; <font color="#669900">talk  &#x007C; <font color="#669900">contribs  23:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * By its very nature CorenSearchBot will occasionally pick up false positives from scraper sites that it doesn't know about. If that's causing a major issue then the bot can be easily blocked; the odd one isn't going to waste many people's time. <b style="color:black;">Black Kite</b> 23:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry this is not acceptable. "Prompt" and "promptly" do not mean "whenever the bot owner deigns to respond" or "48 hours". Proposal to change the policy to include strict time limits made at Wikipedia_talk:Bot_policy, crossposted to Bot_owners'_noticeboard. Exxolon (talk) 23:52, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Strict time limits? You do realize this is a volunteer project, yes? In any case, I would suggest we close the discussion and continue it at WP:BON. – xeno  ( talk ) 23:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ahead of you - already posted. Exxolon (talk) 23:57, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Good grief... this is now leaning towards a bad faith submission, because your relentless push to have Coren and/or his bot blocked because he didn't reply to your message in an hour? Perhaps Coren has a life, or is asleep, or is doing something important. One false positive out of many is not a big deal. As you clearly stated, you dislike any bot, so perhaps your objectivity is in question here. Drop it and move on to matters more important. <font color="#CC0000">seicer &#x007C; <font color="#669900">talk  &#x007C; <font color="#669900">contribs  23:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Hah! I'm still waiting for a response to a message I left on the bot's talk page on 23rd January. DuncanHill (talk) 01:02, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * For the record, I normally do not reply to simple notices about false positives. In cases where the false positive is actually caused by a problem with the bot rather than a side effect of its natural function, I'll respond and/or tweak the bot, but there is rarely a need to otherwise acknowledge such messages when the instructions left in both templates, and in the edit notice of my talk page are very clear.  Taking/keeping this to the right forum where a more appropriate thread is already started.  &mdash; Coren (talk) 02:28, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * This kind of non response to 'routine queries' seems to be an accepted standard of communication among bot operators. I seem to remember having the same doubt over a message I left your bot a long time ago, and it also seems to apply to smackbot judging by the non response to a recent message I left him, and it was also the modus operandi of another famously bad bot operator. It is simple arrogance for you to assume you have crafted a template well enough to satisfy what you think are routine queries, leaving other users wasting their time checking your talk pages for a reply that will never come. MickMacNee (talk) 12:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Because people can't read a talk page guideline that's clearly posted at the top? Lazyness. <font color="#CC0000">seicer &#x007C; <font color="#669900">talk  &#x007C; <font color="#669900">contribs  12:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Which people, and which guideline? MickMacNee (talk) 12:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ignoring the basic flaw in assuming you know what is in the poster's mind when leaving a message, looking at User talk:CorenSearchBot, I see no explicit instruction that a message is likely to be ignored if it appears to Coren to be a routine issue. MickMacNee (talk) 12:31, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Is that some sly reference to betacommand? Protonk (talk) 04:03, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Bot owners' noticeboard
This was moved from here over to the bot owners page for discussion. That discussion now seems to have reached the point where an admin is needed, as the bot's owner is utterly unwilling to even consider the possibility that there is a problem, and has suggested that if there is a problem someone else should fix it. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:53, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Golly, I've never seen a bot-creator display that sort of attitude before. *COUGH*BETACOMMAND*COUGH* Half  Shadow  03:42, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

User:TehFreezer and stealing barnstars
Back last November was vandalizing pages, in the process of checking I had noticed that it seemed a little out of apparent character as the user had a whole raft of barnstars on their user and talk pages. Further checking revealed that these had all been added at once by the user themselves, copied from other places. The user was reported and consequently blocked for the vandalism and counter community actions. Their pages were blanked of the stars. The user came back on in the last few days and reverted their pages to restore the barnstars. I wiped them again this morning and posted the user a customised warning message about how their actions following a block to reinstate the stars they did not earn were not a demonstration of good faith and was completely counter to the spirit of the community etc. The user posted me a warning on blanking. Anyhow, I was about to block the user for 3 months to give them some further time to reflect on their actions but since they threatened an ANI report I thought I'd call their bluff and also get a second opinion before I do it. Mfield (talk) 20:39, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 2nd opinion as requested: Do it. KillerChihuahua?!? 20:42, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * in the old days they'd take you out and horsewhip ya for stealing barnstars . . . untwirl (talk) 20:54, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Never mind. He done it agin; I done blocked him. KillerChihuahua?!? 20:54, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I've removed them again- seems to be a sound block. Abusing the barnstar process is annoying at best, but clear unwillingness to have any respect for Wikipedia customs and users (as well as clear edit warring) is definitely a bad thing. J Milburn (talk) 20:57, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh wow, and Mfield left a lovely notice in addition to my terse message. Thanks! KillerChihuahua?!? 20:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "Barn stars" seem like silly vanity and mutual patting on the back in any event. Edison (talk) 01:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * They might be more impressive if they weren't corroded. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:22, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Quite true. –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  02:52, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Winnipeg Folk Festival vandal
There's a serial vandal who has been targeting several pages to do with the Winnipeg Folk Festival. The vandal's MO is to add a long, first-person story about their experience at the 2005 WFF. They've been IP hopping and targeting a number of articles and talk pages, so whack-a-mole blocks and page protection have not solved the problem yet.

Diffs

 * Winnipeg Folk Festival: 1, 2, 3, etc...
 * Talk:Winnipeg Folk Festival: 1, 2, 3, etc...
 * Festival: 1, 2, etc...
 * Folk festival: 1, 2, etc...
 * Talk:Folk festival: 1
 * Trachtenburg Family Slideshow Players: 1, 2, etc...
 * Birds Hill Provincial Park: 1, 2, 3, etc...
 * Talk:Birds Hill Provincial Park: 1, 2, 3, etc...
 * User talk:Astronaut: 1, 2, 3, etc...

As you can see, a number of editors and admins have been fending off this guy, but I'm not sure any of them realized the scope of his activity. I have placed a one month rangeblock on 216.26.208.0/20, which should take care of roughly half of the IPs used. The other half would require blocking 216.211.0.0/17, which is a pretty wide range. I've made a preliminary check into the possible collateral damage of a /17 block, and it appears minimal, although a CU would certainly get better results than me.

I'd like some people to keep an eye on the articles listed above to monitor for further vandalism whenever possible.

One final thing, this edit may indicate that this is a banned user or some other former editor with an axe to grind. It certainly demonstrates good knowledge of WP policies. Cheers,  caknuck <sub style="color:black;">°  remains gainfully employed  06:07, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this looks to be Swamilive. See also:
 * Suspected sock puppets/Swamilive
 * Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive480
 * Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive482
 * Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive168
 * Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive469
 * The first time that I had seen this added was to my user page on Feb. 11, (see history) until Oxymoron83 got enough IPs to do a range block. Previously, he had targeted James Bay, Southern James Bay, A-frame, among others. Apparition11 Complaints/ Mistakes 06:34, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Spam acct?
User:Joannaguy(I think this is the same person, similar edits user:206.136.32.222) has been adding a link to this
 * National Geographic World Music: Cajun Music and similar nat geo links to myriad music pages, always in the references and see also link lists, never in the external links list. I went and moved a few to the proper place. But they have made quit a few such additions. Is what this user done considered spam? It seems to be a single purpose acct, the only thing in contribs list is edits similar to this, always concerning the nat geo music thingy. I contemplated fixing all of their edits, but after looking at the list, got a littl daunted. Could an admin or more experienced person than I look at and tell me what they think? Heironymous Rowe (talk) 22:10, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ive looked at their contribs and I have to agree with you.... ( mebbe an admin could kindly delete the edits and give a warn/ban (I suggest a level 3 or 4im for the warn) ) <font style="color:# 787878;background:# 41653D;"> rdunn <font style="color:# 41653D;">PLIB 12:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There now seems to be another acct, User:NatGeoMusicIntern, adding the same spam links to multiple music pages. I'm not sure all 3 accts(counting the IPuser) are the same person, but they seem to make only one edit, the adding of the Nat Geo music thing to music pages. All 3 accts have been warned about spamming, but their actions are continuing. Heironymous Rowe (talk) 19:24, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I think an check user should be run or and admin look into them. <font style="color:# 787878;background:# 41653D;"> rdunn <font style="color:# 41653D;">PLIB 10:40, 5 March 2009 (UTC)





Link is mainly used by these accounts, although there are also some regulars adding the link. I'll add it to XLinkBot for now to keep the floodgates closed. --Dirk Beetstra T C 10:49, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Myriad of overlapping lists-what to do?
So after starting to merge articles following this AfD, I discovered there is another list called List of Sony Ericsson products, upon looking at it, it is far more complete, but not as detailed, so I thought why not just expand based upon the list format I was making for the List of Sony Ericsson models page and merge it into the products page afterward. However, I then discovered there are sub-lists in the products list, which also contain links to the base articles that were to be merged. Each successive article down the chain just provides slightly more information, yet the articles at the bottom of the chain fails Notability, and the lists in the middle aren't noticeably more detailed than the main products list which brings into the question of their notability. How exactly should this merger proceed now? Should I bring up another AfD (as suggested by closing admin if there is any problems), go to DRV, or just be bold, do what I was intending to do, and mark the in between lists for deletion? Sorry if this is the wrong board. &eta;oian  &Dagger;orever &eta;ew &Dagger;rontiers  07:13, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * My head just exploded. I think you are in the wrong place but I am not sure where to tell you to go.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:15, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not entirely sure of what to make of the problem either which is why I asked here (the editing notice does say everything else goes here), there's also the issue of redirecting around 40 of the base proved not notable (via AfD) articles to whatever final list there is, or deleting them outright(which would require a AfD or asking a admin)...there should be a guideline on what to do when attempting to clean up mass article bloat on wikipedia. &eta;oian   &Dagger;orever &eta;ew &Dagger;rontiers  07:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Depending on how many people voted in the AfD, I would probably send them all a quick message letting them know what you intend, and asking them to comment on your talk page, or the article talk page or wherever. You'll probably get a quicker consensus that way. I wouldn't have thought that deleting them all would be sensible (but then i didn't vote in that discussion), it would seem more sensible to redirect to another list article than contains all the relevant info. -- Ged UK  10:13, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Xn4
History see:
 * User talk:Fowler&fowler
 * User:Fowler&fowler/Xn4-Strawless-Editing-Histories
 * Sockpuppet investigations/Xn4/Archive
 * User talk:Xn4
 * User talk:Xn4 13:55, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

See the contributions for a new account called user:UmarZ specifically edits 15:34, 2 March 2009 and 15:43, 2 March 2009.

I asked user:YellowMonkey for advise here is a copy of the exchange from user talk:YellowMonkey:
 * I do not have a lot of experience with sockpuppets, so I would appreciate your advise on what if anything should be done about user:UmarZ (contributions) given my actions in baring User talk:Xn4 (see this and that edits in particular). --PBS (talk) 14:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's him again. It needs a block. you can do something with Xn4 if you feel necessary, or ask someone else.  YellowMonkey  ( click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model! ) 03:41, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Given that I have already imposed a topic ban for three months followed by a one month 1RR on user:Xn4, it would be better if another administrator were to decide what to do about this further development, so that it is clear to Xn4 that this is not a personal crusade against him by one administrator. What do others think? --PBS (talk) 10:44, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If Xn4 was confirmed to be socking shouldnt he have been blocked? <font style="color:# 787878;background:# 41653D;"> rdunn <font style="color:# 41653D;">PLIB 11:15, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I have indeffed both the sock and the sockmaster on the basis of YellowMonkey's statement Fritzpoll (talk) 13:27, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Jackal4
✅

We're seeing a growing amount of contentiousness and civility problems with that user. A lot of it is over minutia, like whether to say "RBIs" vs. "RBI". Yesterday, thanks to edit-warring with 3 users (me included), he got a 24 hour block over the use of the comma. When another user restored a lengthy explanation of his behavior to his talk page, he dismissed it with an F-bomb. Basically, he does what he wants and won't listen to anyone else. He's not a newbie, he's been on here like 3 years. I don't know what to do with this guy. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 13:50, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm going to notify him on his talk page, where he might or might not choose to respond to any inquiries here until his block ends in 14 hours or so. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 13:51, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

40 lashes, Joe Taliban, etc.
Seem to be connected with the following, as discussed at:

The above are the latest (at this writing) of users created for the sole purpose of posting spurious warnings. This has been referenced in several places in ANI already. Can something be done to choke off any attempted new ones for awhile? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 11:39, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The behavior by the users above was essentially identical to that of and  who were banned last night, it would not surprise me if there were other accounts out there as well that I haven't seen. Camw (talk) 12:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Another is who was blocked for vandalism, also  who has no edits but the username suggests it is another sock.  It looks like several other accounts were created but most have been blocked. — Snigbrook  12:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * ... semi-protected the talk page. <font color="#CC0000">seicer &#x007C; <font color="#669900">talk  &#x007C; <font color="#669900">contribs  12:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems that the newly banned accounts are socks of the user detailed here Camw (talk) 12:18, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * is another sock. — Snigbrook 12:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * These are all User:Hamish Ross (except User:Melienas, which doesn't seem to fit the pattern). Any admin, please block on sight anything matching these patterns.  Thanks, NawlinWiki (talk) 12:43, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * PS -- check the user creation date -- a date in Nov. 2007 is a dead giveaway. NawlinWiki (talk) 13:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There are some newer ones, though. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:57, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I connect 40 lashes with Melienas because 40 lashes marked the AN section about Melienas as "resolved" for no apparent reason although he could have just been randomly messing around. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 14:40, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I have a feeling that Hamish Ross may be taking credit for actions he didn't do. He wants to seem like he can't be beaten regardless of how many socks we block, so he pretends to be other vandals, andthen when the later accounts are discovered to be him - the earlier ones will also be associated with him. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Could be. Isn't there a way to stop him creating new socks? Like a range-block on his IP address or something? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:22, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The main problem isn't creating new socks. He has hundreds of already discovered socks, a lot of them created in November 2007. We can hardblock IP addresses, (in fact, we have - I know through information not from the checkusers that this is him) but there's not much more we can do.
 * Maybe a range block? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:34, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * For all I know, checkusers blocked some ranges.
 * There are 10 IP addresses I suspect he used anonymously; of these, 2 are in the 86.131.48/20 range (86.131.48.0-86.131.63.255), while the 10 IP addresses occupy 9 different /16 ranges (first 2 numbers). I don't think range blocks could reasonably cover this issue.
 * Hard blocks are not always an option. Some times, there may be too much collateral damage.
 * עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:52, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Quite a few of the recent IP edits have been from 91.108.192.0/18 (which has been hardblocked before) and 79.79.0.0/17, although I don't know if they are sockpuppets or meatpuppets. — Snigbrook 16:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "collateral damage"? Well, it comes down to the question, how much time does anyone want to spend, constantly swatting these mosquitoes, vs. taking some practical action to put a stop to it? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:23, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, there will be a great deal of collateral damage if we hardblock his IPs. There are a few hundred editors on his massively shared BT IP, including a number of established editors and administrators. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 18:27, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Me, for a start. Well, I needed a wikibreak anyway ;) <b style="color:black;">Black Kite</b> 18:31, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, admins inherently get WP:IPBE, but it's still not a great decision to have to make. Anyway, I've posted a new RFCU based on 40 lashes / Joe Taliban; see Sockpuppet investigations/Possum Pint.  Mango juice talk 23:44, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If there's only a few innocent users on a range, then a rangeblock+IPBE is a better solution. If there's more like "a few hundred editors", then that's not really an option. Among other things, the more innocent users there are now, the more likely a user with an existing account will move into the range. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

seems to be the latest in the line. <font face="monospace" color="#004080"> FlowerpotmaN &middot;(t) 11:51, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And prior to it surfacing today, there was probably no way to distinguish it from the other hundreds of accounts created in November 2007 which have no edits. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 14:37, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Gavin.collins canvassing?
As can be seen in the diffs posted at, User:Gavin.collins is copying and pasting a message only to those who are more of the deletionist leaning about making WP:FICT to "discourage topics which are only the subject of in universe plot summary, trivia and cruft." I asked him in the above edit if he would also contact inclusionists (if it was an effort to contact pretty much everyone who has been participating in those discussions okay, but it is focused only on obviously sympathetic editors; imagine if I did the same and only contacted DGG, Pixelface, Ikip, et al). Anyway, he replied with this, which I don't see how a general RfC is somehow comparable and nor do I see how that is an effort to "destroy Wikipedia inclusion criteria" when I suggested that we rename "notability" as "inclusion criteria"... I am all for some kind of inclusion criteria, just not one called "notability." I am also a little disappointed to see my good faith effort to be nice by giving him a smile when I mass gave editors smiles a short time back received with this. Best, --A NobodyMy talk 19:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Unless there are some unexplained mitigating circumstances, targeting a large body of partisan editors with a biased or partisan message is specifically considered as canvassing and is inapproprisate. To defend it as being comparable to discussions at an RfC is not a defense, as canvassing is clearly defined at WP:CANVAS. The text of the mailing itself has a partisan taint to it, and has been addressed to editors the sender feels will be suppportive of his views. If it walks like a duck.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 21:32, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm one of those allegedly canvassed so I thought I'd comment. While I may have been targeted for some perceived biased leanings that I'm not aware of, having not had any dealings with the issue I was asked to comment on, I actually found the message wording itself to be rather balanced, and not biased or partisan. I really had no idea what kind of response Gavin was hoping to get from me. Nevertheless, it is always risky to go posting messages requesting participation for select individuals, since it could very easily be perceived as attempting to solicit a specific desired response, whether or not that's the actual intent. For that reason it's generally a better idea to post such notices in open forums instead, like village pumps pages.


 * That having been said, this ANI posting, if I had to guess, is more than anything a mere spillover of hostilities taking place elsewhere, rather than a serious matter that demands time be put into solving. If Gavin were smart he'd make the gesture of removing the notices from the user pages he posted it to, and post it instead at WP:VPP. And following that, if everyone else were smart, they would not waste any further time discussing who was fault. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 22:00, 4 Mar 2009 (UTC)
 * Well said, those last two sentences. // roux <span style="border:1px solid #082567;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;">  22:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment I must point out the irony here as these editors accusing Gavin of canvassing (which he probably is) were vocal supporters of Ikip when I pointed out his (opposite) partisan canvassing the other week on this same notice board (see here). Themfromspace (talk) 01:57, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Not the same situation at all; Ikip was recruiting people for a wikiproject, Gavin is attempting to influence a proposed guideline. Jtrainor (talk) 03:06, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The argument is the same. A Nobody said up above that Gavin was "copying and pasting a message only to those who are more of the deletionist leaning".  Change "deletionist" to "inclusionist" and the exact same was said about Ikip.  It's not what they are aiming at that matters, it's how they are going about it, ie: their behaviour is what's in question.  Both of their behaviour is the same.  Just as Ikip needed to stop before, Gavin needs to stop what he's doing now. Themfromspace (talk) 03:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I doubt there is an Evil Inclusionist/Deletionist Cabal® in existence which might give rise to the theory that "obviously sympathetic editors" are conspiring to take control of Wikipedia, but if there is, it is probabaly too late for me to influence the outcome of any future discussions. --Gavin Collins (talk) 08:50, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the notices were probably inappropriate canvassing due to the selection of editors – based on the usernames I recognize readily, anyway. I could be persuaded otherwise if the set could be shown as all productive FICT contributors no longer active there. The wording is close enough to neutral for AGF to apply. However, the behavior is not ongoing: Gavin left notes for 12 editors, then stopped and responded to A Nobody's note on his talk page. Flatscan (talk) 04:15, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * In theory, posting on the talk pages of 13 editors could be viewed as canvassing, especially if those in question were members of an electoral college who were in the process of casting a vote about a specific proposition. In this instance, there is no electoral college, nor a vote about to take place, nor a specific proposal being tabled, nor a clear course of action to be taken to bring all of these things about. Therefore I think the arguement that canvassing has taken place, or is in progress and needs to stop, is a somewhat stretching the facts to fit the crime.


 * I'm not convinced by this complaint. I'm involved, but I can't see an incident which demands administrative action. Protonk (talk) 09:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I see the people canvassed, not unsrurprisingly, think the canvassing was proper. I do not. Thirteen, most of whom are strong supporters of his position, seems totally unnecessary and inappropriate. The message, e.g. is not just calling attention to the discussion, but advocating his position. If this doesnt fall within the definition of canvassing, I dont; know what does. Shall I post the inclusionists with a notice of this discussion,saying "There seems to be some recent activity with respect to the fiction guideline.  Most of the arguments for a permissive guideline seem have been opposed, and people are arguing towards a considerably tight  applciation of WP:V for fiction that should discourage many topics with material Wikipedia normally includes, by  calling it mere plot summary, trivia and cruft.  Can you provide some cool and clear support towards drafting a compromise that is actually compliant with existing Wikipedia practice?"  I'll send it also to one or two moderates also so it doesnt look too closely targeted. That Gavin stopped after A nobody reminded him must show that he realises how wrong it was, because he usually does not pay much attention to that editor's strictures.   The only admin action necessary now is a careful watch for resumed canvsasing. DGG (talk) 09:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with his position, BTW. I'm not saying that it was neutral, but it certainly wasn't widespread and it wasn't far out of what I would expect from Gavin.  Also, if we are going to get into back and forth accusations over who is allowed to call something canvassing, I should note that conversation didn't get anywhere in the ARS debate.  I'm shocked, shocked that "inclusionists" think this is canvassing and "deletionists" do not.  Would I prefer that Gavin didn't do this?  Sure.  Is there an incident which demands immediate administrator attention?  No. Protonk (talk) 17:37, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Bratz angel14 changing image sizes
I don't know if this is a problem or not, but is going around to several articles and randomly changing the image sizes of the images in the infoboxes. They were told not to do this a couple of weeks ago, but they persist. When their edits are commented on on their Talk page, they blank the page and continue on. If this is no big deal, then, okay, no big deal. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:15, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Blocked for 24 hours. This user ignores warnings, they ignore being reverted, they ignore links to policy and guidelines when pointed out on their Talk page. They don't discuss anything, anywhere. They just carry on making their preferred edits. I hope that this doesn't continue after the block.  S HEFFIELD S TEEL TALK 15:07, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Amolz block review
I gave User:Amolz a short block following repeated reversions at List of television stations in India. I suspect that Amolz is connected to User:117.98.7.160, User:64.255.180.70 and the others that have been reported here, here, and here. The entire article is still without a source which is a problem but the creation of various OR categories for all the television stations (and constant movement around without discussion) is an annoyance. I did give a small warning but as an involved admin, I'd like outside review. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:06, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Was it wise to block in an article you're involved in? There's no implied criticism there, I'm just trying to figure out what's up.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * There's been a roaming IP address reverting that article for months. I've watched it before but never edited until recently.  A new login and it stays the same.  I don't know, maybe I just wanted him to at least respond to something.  I started numerous discussions at Talk:List of television stations in India, asked him to respond in some manner, and just continue to get reverts back.  When does that become vandalism?  -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:33, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

You know what, I've unblocked, and reverted the article. I'm guessing that version should stay as consensus. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:35, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * At least for appearance's sake, suggest calling in uninvolved admin next time this is an issue. Not judging the propriety of your action, I really didn't dig into it very deeply.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:50, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Plagiarist caught red-handed and refusing to cooperate
I have a problem with, a user I caught plagiarising the other day. Having found at least one substantial piece of plagiarism (Bulgarian dialects), and with several other articles under strong suspicion, I warned him and asked him to cooperate in the necessary cleanup, by coming clean about all remaining articles that may be affected and naming the sources he used My request went unanswered, and today he unceremoniously removed my warning from his page (through an IP, which is known to be his ), with the laconic commentary of "no, it is not" (meaning, presumably, "no, cleaning up my plagiarism is not my priority".)

At this point, I'd really like to indef-block him, for continued refusal to clean up his own mess, and as a clear statement that he isn't welcome to edit further as long as he hasn't shown he has learned how to edit properly. Unfortunately I've recently been in some content disputes with him (partly related to the same articles), so on second thought I gathered I maybe ought not to be doing this myself. Thoughts? Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * <font color=#003333>(WQA Mediator Comment) - I completely agree with FuturePerf's recusing himself from admin action in this case. (I think it speaks well of him!) I also opine that, if indeed the editor in question is not willing to clear up his apparent plagiarism, a block may be in order, the duration of which depending greatly on any previous actions of this type. IMHO. Edit Centric (talk) 20:03, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * As for "previous actions", I probabably ought to clarify: I basically suspect that his entire output is plagiarised. He has two main fields of editing, Bulgarian history/linguistics, and theoretical physics/mathematics. There are about ten or so articles to which he has made massive contributions of large quantities of text. I cannot judge in the physics/mathematics cases, but the history cases are all of the same style. Not the kind of stuff a Wikipedian would write. All written in the tone of an old-fashioned magisterial history don. For one or two cases I can prove it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * BTW, what is "WQA Moderator Comments" supposed to mean, and why the different font colour? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:14, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * <font color=#003333> I dunno, I thought that it might be a different way to present an outside opinion. As for the WQA mediator line, I do most of my work over at WQA (where I "hang my hat"). Here in ANI, I'll occasionally comment on a situation, especially if it has Wikiquette aspects to it. Edit Centric (talk) 20:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Honestly, in this forum here, I found it a bit irritating, because it could be understood as trying to assume some special bureaucratic role and status for yourself, giving your voice more of an assumed weight than it would have otherwise. We don't have moderators here, as you obviously know, and nobody's voice is special. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:33, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm with FutPerf here. If I were a newb, I'd see something like that as meaning you have some sort of special status. Would probably be a good idea to stop. // roux <span style="border:1px solid #4B0082;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;">  23:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, i find the self-identification by Edit Centric as playing a certain role, putting on a hat to clarify he/she is playing that role, to be helpful for me reading the discussions. EC is clearly not asserting to be a moderator of this forum. doncram (talk) 21:26, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, maybe FutPerf and Roux are right, this peon will take his humble self back over to WQA now. I apologise if I offended. Edit Centric (talk) 07:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I've looked at his physics contributions. My impression is that Lantonov has demonstrated sufficient subject-matter expertise that they could be legitimate.  However, the style is idiosyncratic compared to the way most wiki writing is prepared, suggesting he may be using some reference work(s) to guide his contributions (which if used loosely would be fine).  If he is plagarizing the physics though, I can't find any evidence of that from Google.  His sentence constructions appear to be unique to him, at least from the point of view of English language Google-able sources.  Without a smoking gun it is impossible for me to draw a definitive conclusion beyond that.  Dragons flight (talk) 21:40, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The good thing is that he often actually names the sources he copies from (meaning he was probably not aware that what he was doing was wrong.) In the Bulgaria articles, he often did it in the edit summaries. He also often works by directly translating from Bulgarian or other language sources. In one of his physics articles, Synchronous frame, he names a Russian-language edition of a standard textbook as his source. If he translated from that, the result would probably look just slightly different enough from its English print editions not to be immediately recognisable, though still structurally dependent if you looked closer. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:00, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I've notified the user that he is the subject of an ANI discussion.. I would like to see him explain his actions and the edit summary. I can't read Bulgarian and so cannot verify if the text is being translated directly from a Bulgarian source. If that is the case, however, and if he refuses to a) stop the behavior and b) help clean up the mess, then I agree that a block is in order. Karanacs (talk) 20:45, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * For future reference, the term would be plagiarist. Durova Charge! 20:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I might have need of that for further reference more often than I'd like to :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:56, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure thing, and sharing the sentiment. ;) Durova Charge! 21:01, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

If you're suggesting a copyright violation, the place is WP:COPYVIO; if not, why not just shut up and stop wasting people's time. Wikipedia has plagiarised right from the very beginning, and is widely plagiarised itself. We are not writing a term paper here, but an encyclopedia. Physchim62 (talk) 22:04, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Bloody nonsense. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Plagiarism (among other things), brings Wikipedia into disrepute. That it takes place is no excuse for saying it should be ignored. dougweller (talk) 22:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I looked at his mathematics contributions. What I've checked has been fine, but I've only been able to check the minor edits.  Certainly it is not accurate to say "his entire output is plagiarised" (so hopefully the suspicion can be shrunk to just "there is a big problem"); he has a ton of basic mopping up, and some useful small contributions that cannot be copyvio or plagiarism.  WikiProject Math is still checking the articles where he made major contributions.  Assuming his major contributions in math check out, I don't think an indef block is needed.
 * Perhaps he just uses sources too heavily to help with the English? In math, you can quote much more heavily without using quotation marks or citations than in other scholarly areas.  He might be applying those principles (incorrectly) to his history/culture/Bulgarian contributions.
 * Student plagiarism is often caused (link to some recent paper except it is dinner time) by the student not understanding the value of their work. A student will turn in a photocopy, because they feel their job is to go find the answer that the teacher already knows.  They do not understand they are being asked to contribute their own unique perspective, creative energy, and intelligence to move the frontiers of human knowledge forward (albeit by a very small step).   Getting that across to one's own students is hard enough.  It might be that Lantonov neither understands the problem nor the solution simply due to a language barrier.  A short block to prevent further plagiarism and to send a clear message ("we want your unique creative energy here, not simply translations of copyrighted material") might still be warranted of course. JackSchmidt (talk) 23:20, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The physics looks legit although too technical for Wikipedia in my opinion. Antonov claims a Ph.D. in physics on his user page and that seems plausible. Looie496 (talk) 03:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm a little confused here. Some messages into this thread it is said that this editor is giving the sources in the article.  Am I misunderstanding something here?  If he is crediting the sources, what is the plagiarism problem.-- Birgitte  SB  03:58, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem is in a number of forms, Birgitte. One, saying in the edit summary is not the same as citation following the section, which is the proper form; the alternative is akin to saying ONCE that you took something from another author, then allowing people not there for the announcement to think it's your own work. That's plagiarism. Also, he doesn't quote the work, instead integrating it into the larger work, representing it as written for the article. That's two of the major hallmarks of plagiarism. Any plagiarist caught and unrepentant should be blocked until they commit to wholly undoing the transgressions. ThuranX, 04:56, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * What you are saying does not make sense to me. Either this editor is not a serious (indef blockable) problem or you are doing a very poor job of describing the problem. (Or else I am really failing to understand this thread)  Giving the source only once and integrating the new material into the article != passing the material off as your own scholarship. And the former alone is not even outside the bounds of normal practice on Wikipedia. If integrating new material into articles and giving no source at all is not blockable, how is doing that while giving a source in the edit summary an issue? There is not a clear-cut copyright violation on the translations. Some amount of re-wording is inherent in translation.  Showing that there was not enough new formulation in the English from the exact phrases in the other language will likely be more work than simply re-wording them a little yourself to fix any possible problems.  If he is coping word for word with English sources that would be a clear-cut copyright problem where showing some difs could gain the agreement to block him. -- Birgitte  SB  05:46, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope. What he did (in some cases, not in all) was he named the source in an edit summary. It was thus not visible to the normal reader of the article. So, to the outside reader he was indeed passing it off as his/our own. In other cases, he didn't name it at all. The claim that the wording difference inherent in translating could be sufficient to make it not a problem, or that you could heal the problem by just "re-wording them a little" is plain wrong. Every translation is, by definition, a derivative work, and hence not copyright-free. And plagiarism remains plagiarism as long as the sequence of ideas is the same. You can't remove it by superficial changes in the wording. – Moreover, plagiarism with these kinds of texts also includes a content problem, in addition to the copyright problem. These texts are academic papers that contain extensive argumentative passages, where authors express their own judgments and opinions. Built into a Wikipedia article, that's automatically also an NPOV violation, plus a problem of intellectual ethics. Because you are in effect passing off not just the wording as your own, but the idea expressed by it. This can only be healed by erasing the whole passage and rewriting it from scratch. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Your objections make no sense to me. You say Lantonov is naming his sources in the edit summaries.  Your complaint seems to me that he is not placing sufficient citations in the articles; so place them yourself, since they are available from the edit summaries.  I have never had a problem with working with Lantonov on his mathematical physics articles -- he sticks closely to the sources (as we should) but also shows considerable expertise in this field and can't be called a plagiarist by any stretch of the imagination.  I have also found him quite open to debate and correction.  If you have a problem with him I suggest it is your overly abrasive style (which we see evidence of here) which is the source of the problem.  I also suspect there is some personal agenda going on here. --Michael C. Price talk 07:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "stick closely to the sources (as we should)"? No, we should not. Not where sources express POVs and personal arguments of their authors. And obviously not where the closeness and amount of paraphrase amounts to a "derivative work" and hence a copyright violation (which, it bears repeating, is a problem that is not alleviated by adding footnotes, no matter how many.)  Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You seem not to understand WP:NPOV. POVs can (and should) be reported.  NPOV is all about allowing all POVs to represented.  If you feel the article is unbalanced then add some additional sourced commentary. --Michael C. Price talk 07:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You don't "report" a POV by just copying the text that expresses it. If you can't see the difference, you have a problem. Certainly when working on humanities topics. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:36, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * So rephrase it, if it is such a beg deal (although I don't see why it is). --Michael C. Price talk 07:57, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No, indeed, evidently you don't. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:23, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It would be helpful to have some sort of side-by-side comparisons between text you see as problematic and the source material. Dragons flight (talk) 07:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

(undent) Here's some examples of the kinds of problems we face. Both from Battle of Pliska:
 * "The following objections can be raised against the opinion that [...] Without doubt, however, the best evidence can be found in [...] All this shows that [...] It is hard to say which one; however, if we take into account that [...], it is more probable that [...]"

This passage, with spans several long paragraphs, is in fact a literal translation from a Bulgarian work, which is given once in a footnote. But since the footnote isn't helping to disintangle fact from opinion, there is no way this could be made not plagiarism, and not an NPOV violation.

At another point, (a whole section copied in toto from yet another source), we can read:
 * "Men did not like to leave the homes to which they were attached, to sell their property, and say farewell to the tombs of their fathers. The poor cling far more to places than the rich and educated, and it was to the poor agriculturists that this measure exclusively applied".

So, whose opinion is it that "the poor cling far more to places than the rich and educated"? Is this ground-breaking achievement of human psychology the opinion of Wikipedia's collective authorship? – Incidentally, in this case the source happens to be public domain, so there is formally no copyright problem. There is, however, a serious problem of NPOV and encyclopedicity.

I still maintain that a person who systematically works like this, and obviously has no intention of stopping and no understanding of why he ought to stop, must be blocked (indefinitely, not infinitely), until he shows a willingness to improve. The block should also serve to force him to actively help in the cleanup. There's a massive amount of work he has caused others here, and massive danger of damage to articles if passages will have to be excised without anybody to actually rewrite them. He can't just ignore this damage and keep contributing elsewhere as if nothing had happened. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:10, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Can a translation be an example of plagiarism? This seems to me to be a content issue, not a plagiarism issue.  Deal with it. The other example you admit is not a plagiarism issue, so stop wasting our time here. --Michael C. Price talk 07:25, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, a translation is an example of both plagiarism and copyright violation, because it constitutes a copyright-infringing derivative work. And plagiarism from a public domain source, while not being a copyright violation, still continues to be plagiarism, because it has the same problems of intellectual ethics (and, as I said, of Wikipedia-appropriate encyclopedicity.) I'm shocked that otherwise serious contributors are so naive and clueless about such issues. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:29, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No, plagiarism is where an author passes off someone else's work as their own. This is not happening here. Not even remotely.  End of story. --Michael C. Price talk 07:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess, the proposed guideline/policy should also be mentioned here: Plagiarism. Logos5557 (talk) 11:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, and note the opening sentence:
 * Plagiarism is the taking of someone else's work and passing it off as one's own, whether verbatim or with only minimal changes. The copyright status of the work is irrelevant; directly copying a public-domain work is still plagiarism unless the original work is noted.
 * Since the original work is being cited, then there is no case to answer. --Michael C. Price talk 11:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Michael, I find your opinion on the subject troubling, given the finality you present your answers with. Would it be plagarism if I got one of my history books, copied a section literally, inserted it into an article without quotes?  I'll leave that question as rhetorical, because I hope the answer is yes.  Does it then cease to be plagiarism if I put a footnote at the bottom of that section?  Please consider this carefully, because a footnote is different from quotations.  All a footnotes says is, here is where I summarized material from.  If you feel that simply placing the footnote causes the work to cease to be plagiarism, I implore you to review plagiarism as educators and editors understand it.  If, having reviewed that, you still feel that it ceases to be plagiarism when the source is simply identified, please tell us why.  I submit that it ceases to be plagiarism when quotations are placed around the copied text, indicating to the reader and to other editors that the material is not original.  In that case we have the editorial problem of removing bulk quotations from articles, but there wouldn't be a conduct issue. Protonk (talk) 01:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 1 (plagiarism issue)
For the record, I've now dealt with the following cases: Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:02, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * – cleaned up a year ago, was previously a huge POV mess self-admittedly copied from modern sources, with no attribution.
 * – stubbed back. Massive amounts of text were verbatim translated from a modern copyrighted source in Bulgarian, with no attribution.
 * – reverted to an old (mid-2007) version. Large parts of the article were verbatim copied from various sources, partly copyrighted, some public domain. Most copied passages had a footnote mentioningthe sources, but nothing marking them as being literally copied. Extensive personal opinions and whole sequences of arguments of various authors were taken over without any reporting distance.
 * – some POV and peacock language cleaned up that had been introduced through uncritical copying of EB1911 material.
 * – some cleanup; serious POV problems because of uncritical verbatim copying of a highly POV 19th-century source. Source was mentioned in ref section, but not marked as the source of verbatim incorporated material.
 * – removed one suspicious passage, can't check how close it was to its source.
 * – stubbed back. Whole text was near-verbatim translated from a modern copyrighted source. Source was named as such on talk page, and mentioned in one footnote, but not marked explicitly as the source of substantial incorporated text. Curiously, the editor himself mentioned on the talk page that "This material is subject to author's rights so it may not be incorporated verbatim" – but that is nevertheless exactly what he then did.
 * – highly POV material, haven't checked the sources in detail, but redirected the page for independent reasons.
 * – probably a similar situation as Bulgarian dialects, but haven't checked in detail. Redirected for independent reasons, as a POV fork.
 * Comment Translations are a derivative work, and the right to prepare derivative works is expressly reserved by US law to the copyright holder. Sec. 101, definitions: "A “derivative work” is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted." Sec. 105, "Exclusive rights in copyrighted works": "[T]he owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following...to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work." Note that condensations and abridgments are also derivative works. Paraphrases, if too close, may fail the "substantial similarity" test even given limited literal duplication (see McCarthy's Desk Encyclopedia of Intellectual Property, enough of which is visible here to give a good overview.) Getting to the core of the matter, if this contributor is systematically violating WP:C by placing direct translations of copyrighted text and shows no interest in stopping, then, like User:Karanacs, I support a block. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:28, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Plagiarism is the direct copying of someone else's work. If this is done with a copyrighted work, it's also a copyright violation (even if it is translated, because translations are derivative works and the same rules apply). Small quotations are admissible, copying entire sections of text isn't EVER unless the source is explicitly given a free license which clearly doesn't apply to all the edits here) Have any Bulgarian Wikipedians taken a look? - Mgm|(talk) 12:51, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * We could ask User:TodorBozhinov to confirm how close the translations are. But in fact, I can decipher Bulgarian just well enough, with the help of a little bit of Google translation, to work out if two passages are substantially identical. In the cases above, I'm positively certain they qualify as direct translations, to a very large extent. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:56, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I hope Michael Pierce and Birgitte are reading the link to the policy page on Plagiarism; it seems neither is grasping certain fundamentals of the idea. If you take others' work, without credit, it's Plagiarism. If you take big chunks of work, Credit or not, it's plagiarism. Copyright's quite clear on this stuff. If you turn in 19 pages of quoted material for a research or term paper, you've failed for plagiarism. If you 'borrow' even one phrase without citation, not just an 'i got it from author X', it's plagiarism. Regrettably, many people don't get paste the ' cut'n'paste is wrong' lesson learned in grade school about Plagiarism. It's a fairly complex idea, and even rewriting a sentence to use synonyms for those used by an author is still plagiarism. This editor is a plagiarist, and since that violates core policies, he needs to be blocked until he fixes it all. ThuranX (talk) 12:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Dear ThuranX, I agree the policy definition makes it clear that larger portions of text must be rephrased, as well as being cited. Since Lantonov is translating the cited text, he satisfies both criteria.  So still no problem. --Michael C. Price talk 13:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * User:ThuranX, I agree in large part with you, but I have to note that until and unless WP:Plagiarism passes, we don't have a policy (or even a guideline) on plagiarism. :/ We've definitely got one on copyright infringement, though, and the remedy for recalcitrant copyright infringers is pretty clear. Michael C. Price, did you by any chance read the linked US law? Direct translation (eta, for clarity: without permission) is a violation of US copyright law, which is a big problem. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * First I want to clarify that my position is not there is no copyright violation going, but rather that is not clear that there is any copyright violation. And this may be rather hard to show in a bordline case like this. To translate a creative work would be a dervative work and a copyright violation. But when one translates a reference work the issue becomes less clear.  Ideas themselves are not copyrightable.  Neither are simple facts.  Merely that that his transaltion is based on a copyrighted work is not evidence of a copyright violation.  You must show that his translation copies the creative expression of the various ideas and facts into English.  That is why I said earlier that it will probably be less work to rephrase the section that concern you than it would be to extablish that there is a copyright violation here.-- Birgitte  SB  14:58, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Reference works may not be not creative in the sense that creativity is commonly used, but they generally are creative in the legal sense as concerns copyright. In Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service, the United States Supreme Court noted that factual compilations of information may be protected with respect to "selection and arrangement, so long as they are made independently by the compiler and entail a minimal degree of creativity," as "[t]he compilation author typically chooses which facts to include, in what order to place them, and how to arrange the collected data so that they may be used effectively by readers"; the Court also indicated that "originality is not a stringent standard; it does not require that facts be presented in an innovative or surprising way" and that "[t]he vast majority of works make the grade quite easily, as they possess some creative spark, 'no matter how crude, humble or obvious' it might be." (My own notes from Close paraphrasing.) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:29, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand copyright and I wasn't saying anything that disagrees with the above. I am saying that you cannot label information about mathematics as a copyrighted derivative as automatically as you can label a translation of the plot of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. If someone had translated the story Huck Finn, no close examination would be necessary. No further discussion, no diffs, nor examples needed; but with reference works the copyrightability of the material is not all or nothing.  It depends on what exactly what information was translated and how it was translated. In this thread people seemed to be labeling this material as copyrighted rather automatically without diffs or examples (and remember people want an indef block over this).   In addition, I was suggesting that close examination of the these translations to properly judge the paraphrasing was likely to be more work than simply rewording the English.  But since that work has been done below that point is moot.-- Birgitte  SB  18:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Then I apologize for mistaking you. But the comparative amount of work of cleaning up versus verifying infringement may not be the point; if this contributor has been infringing copyright, the work seems worthwhile simply to ensure that he does not continue, either because he learns better or he is stopped. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay, if you insist to check just how close it is, here's a detail comparison of one article, Battle of Kalimantsi. I've only given a few representative excerpts; as far as I can see the whole text is like this.

Incidentally, these passages also illustrate the kind of national POV lyrics this editor is fond of. There is no way of making this not a copyvio, short of erasing the whole thing and rewriting it from scratch. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:22, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Another reply to BrigitteSB: the idea that a pure "reference work" might be less sensitive to copyvio because there's less of creative content in it and you might end up just restating simple facts, even if you do a direct translation, is hardly ever applicable to content in the humanities. A history text is always, almost by definition, creative content spoken in the individual narrative voice of its author. Your suggestion might be applicable to a mathematics text or a zoological compendium. I can hardly imagine a situation where it would become applicable with history topics. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Having seen Future Perfect's table box above, I am convinced that this is indeed plagiarism and probable copyvio. When translating a copyrighted text, it is important to do the following: If consensus doesn't form here at this thread, then recommend a user conduct RFC. Durova Charge! 17:50, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Provide full citation in a standard format.
 * Quote short sections only, using quote boxes or quotation marks.
 * For extended use of any sort, rewrite the ideas in one's own words: merely conveying another author's words in grammatical English is not sufficient. Encyclopedic editing means reprioritizing and reordering concepts and incorporating ideas and citations from other sources according to the needs of the article.


 * I would argue that consensus is with Fut. Perf. on this. He certainly has my support on this one, and has provided extensive background, which has also been backed up by several other editors. The few people against Fut. Perf.'s view of things appear largely combative for the sake of being combative. Hiberniantears (talk) 18:10, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Fut. Perf, you've seen many plagiarists of uploading copyrighted images or inserting contents, but you have not "indef.blocked all of them except persistent vandals. I'm wondering as to why you think you could not give a chance to the mentioned user? For example, PHG has a big problem with sourcing, but overall his edits are good-faith intented so would the questioned user do. If the questioned user inserts "According to Who at University of X" or "Who claims that..." and rewording the inserted contents, isn't that still intolerable?--Caspian blue 18:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This is slightly different, Caspian blue. PHG sometimes quoted out of context, etc. but at least he provided citations in a standard format.  Other editors could tell what text was cited and where it was cited to, and thus had the means to check whether it was cited correctly.  I'm more reminded of another user who was very productive but plagiarized habitually, and who refused to acknowledge the problem or assist the cleanup effort.  Durova Charge! 18:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent example. The amount of time and effort that can go into fixing these types of situations far outweighs the benefits that such editors bring. Simply telling others to clean it up is not workable, and far different than simply cleaning up messy, but otherwise original and correctly sourced content. Hiberniantears (talk) 18:37, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If my memory is correct, the community had given her many "final" opportunities. Besides she came to ANI to defend herself, but the questioned editor has not. Besides, there is no indication that he has got a final warning (except the first warning) and somebody said he has done good edits, so indef.blocking is too premature--Caspian blue 23:28, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec) I believe that he has not edited since this thread began. I would otherwise simply summarily block him as causing harm to the encyclopedia through his plagiarism and causing strife due to his refusal to acknowledge and repair the damage - this is tantamount to vandalism. I'd prefer to let him speak, however, before taking the action. I will support whole-heartedly anyone who feels enough chances and time have been given and choose to err on the side of protecting Wikipedia from further harm. We can, after all, always unblock if it seems appropriate. One puppy's opinion. 18:21, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Some analysis of Latonov's contributions to the example: Lantonov first makes a direct translation begins finishes note the full reference is added to the article Then he makes some edits to make the translation be less biased.  .  This is a a copyright violation and an inappropriate tone for Wikipedia.  It is not plagiarism, and frankly that continued charge against him baffles me. Such editing cannot be allowed to continue.  That said, this example is from August of 2007.  Has he continued this type of editing since he was alerted to the problem with copyright?  A lot of people just don't understand copyright until it explained to them. Also it is reported that his editing to math and physics is good.  Is that true?  If both his math edits are good and he refuses to stop adding copyvios in history articles, can we not topic ban him from history before considering an indef block?-- Birgitte  SB  19:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you point out who said his contributions to math and physics are good? Saw people saying they were unqualified to evaluate that material, which is a bit different.  Perhaps I overlooked a post?  Durova Charge! 19:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Dragons flight JackSchmidt Looie496 Those all the posts on math/physics. I will leave to everyone judge for themselves rather than paraphrasing, although I didn't mean to imply all of his edits to math have been verified as good. Do you have anything to support the idea that his edits in math/physics have been found to problematic? -- Birgitte  SB  19:23, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * None are ringing endorsements, and Looie's remarks bring back déjà vu. Is this a chance we want to take?  I'm unsure.  Durova Charge! 19:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * His maths/physics edits have also been favourably commented upon by JRSpriggs here. I am also a frequent maths/physics contributor (which was how I saw this discussion) and I agree with JRSpriggs that there are no problems with his edits. --Michael C. Price talk 23:18, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Can I ask, what did you in fact do to check them? Did you compare them against their likely sources, to see how close they are? Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:27, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Checked against sources. Then discussed and agreed. No problem.  --Michael C. Price talk 02:16, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I read a substantial portion of his math edits last night, as reported at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mathematics. There are some possible copyvios, but unlike his Bulgaria-related edits, he did not give citations.  In the few cases where he did, the material has since been removed.  (This happened at Laplace transform.)  I did not check the uncited material on Google, but I did list it at the WT:WPM thread if anyone wants to follow up. Most of his other edits are either trivial fixes (often made using AWB) or they are wrong and have been reverted.  (This was true at Eigenvalue, eigenvector and eigenspace.) Ozob (talk) 19:42, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec)What chance am I asking you to take? I asked whether it was true if the math stuff was good and then asked that if it was good why not topic ban. You all are talking about indefinitely blocking this guy.  I can't see any sign that he has been talked to about this issue before this week. I looked through the history of his talkpage for heading and edit summary that mentioned copyright and didn't find anything. What the hell happened to communicating and educating people around here? And you haven't struck your "finding" of plagiarism from the table given in this thread despite the diff I showed where he used cite web to list the source.  Why are you supporting the exaggeration of his behavior and blocking him indefinitely, when such basic questions like the quality of his edits in math and the extent (if any) his behavior has altered after previous attempts to educate him have not been answered?-- Birgitte  SB  19:52, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Once plagiarism/copyvio is confirmed on one topic, and the editor is uncooperative, it's taking a chance to trust superficial reviews and leave the person to edit freely at another topic. Ozob's post above persuades me: if the editor were known to making good contributions at math and physics then I'd consider a topic ban, but since most of the edits are either trivial or wrong and required reversion I don't see a reason to burden the editors of that subject. Also leaves me more suspicious about that claim of a doctoral degree  Durova Charge! 20:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Where is plagiarism confirmed? Has he continued adding copyvios since he was alerted to the problem with copyright? A lot of people just don't understand copyright until it is explained to them. I don't know this editor at all.  I only paid attention to this because I follow copyright issues.  Copyright is difficult, anti-intuitive, and sometimes contradictory.  People need help with it. It is interesting that you have no problem continuing to label someone a plagiarist and a liar  and imply he deceiving people ala Essjay on simply your own suspicions, but I'm from Missouri. -- Birgitte  SB  20:28, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Inadequate citation is plagiarism. As I suggested, if consensus doesn't form would you support a conduct RfC?  Durova Charge! 20:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You said "Having seen Future Perfect's table box above, I am convinced that this is indeed plagiarism" That material as I clearly noted in my analysis and even later called to your attention included So how in the world are you convinced the edit is plagiarism?-- Birgitte  SB  20:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * He added a note mentioning the source, as a source, not more. That means he acknowledged he got some factual information from there. He did nothing to acknowledge that he got the the choice of material, the wording, the order of ideas, the narrative plot, the value judgments, the lines of argument, the structuring of backgrounded and foregrounded information, the POV, the rhetorical devices, in short: the whole thing, from somewhere. A footnote just doesn't cover these aspects. I'm not saying he did that with a deliberate intention to deceive, but that's beside the point. (And, honestly, if he claims he has a doctoral degree in RL, he can't very well plead ignorance.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:57, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Whoa, slow down. This is getting much too heated. At no time have I called this person a liar. Please withdraw that misattributed assertion, Birgitte. And above I also posted a clear summary of the requirements for non-plagiaristic use of translated material. Durova Charge! 20:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Done. Please explain how plagiarism was committed in regards to Battle of Kalimantsi (historical version) as you state you are convinced of above. Because I just can not reconcile that at all.-- Birgitte SB  20:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The concepts ought to have been reordered, restated and worked in with other sources according to the structure and needs of the encyclopedia article. Short passages might have been quoted directly in quotation marks and/or a quote box.  The example in question was a bit long for a quote box, but proper attribution for a translation with this degree of fidelity would have placed it in one.  Durova Charge! 21:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That explains how to fix the copyright issue but has nothing to do with plagiarism. He credits the author who is responsible for the scholarship in the Reference section and does not claim the material as his own work in any way that I can see.  Maybe you are confused over the difference between the two issues but not all copyright violations can qualify as plagiarism.  And I think it is significant what someone is accused between these issues.  Everyone makes copyright mistakes, but passing someone else's work off as your own is regarded as so highly unethical because it is impossible to "mistakenly" claim credit for the work.  So an accusation of plagiarism sticking to someone will effect the way people judge their character far more than any misunderstanding over copyright.-- Birgitte  SB  22:07, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You seem to be of the opinion that plagiarism cannot exist where a source is cited. (Please excuse me if I am misunderstanding you again.) Perhaps Durova feels as I do and as Neill A. Levy, Esq., the author of this, who indicates that "Even with attribution, plagiarism can exist if the writer paraphrases excessively or quotes without using quotation marks." (Using a less loaded term, author Robin Levin Penslar at 148 of Research Ethics: Cases & Materials, refers to "extended borrowing even with attribution" as "misuse".) At Wikipedia talk:Plagiarism, I've already discovered that for those who define plagiarism as a matter of intent, an accusation of plagiarism may be viewed as to all intents and purposes an accusation of intentional dishonesty, or lying. But not all definitions of plagiarism require intent; some allow for "inadvertent" or "accidental" plagiarism, and others even permit "unconscious plagiarism." (There are citations to various books and websites at that talk page.) For those who do not regard plagiarism as necessarily the outcome of intentional wrongdoing, the term is not intended as an accusation of bad faith. Perhaps part of the problem in this conversation stems from a difference of definition? Unlike copyright, which is codified in law, "plagiarism" is a more malleable term. (For me, though, the issue of plagiarism is incidental here in comparison to the problem of copyright infringement.) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 22:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I think that is the heart of the problem. Although I have never seen anyone accused of plagiarism except for as the intent to claim credit for another's work, I can see now where everyone else is coming from.  It would be nice if people who choose to use a different definition would be explicit when they mean "inadvertent plagiarism".  Because any accusations being understood as the other kind of plagiarism could do serious harm to someone's reputation.  Frankly I wouldn't hazard to ever use the wider definition in regards to another person since anything with such "extended borrowing" will qualify as a copyright problem any way so the issue can be dealt without any danger of "inadvertent character assignation". -- Birgitte  SB  22:27, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

User RFC?
Durova suggested that this should go to RFC if there not consensus to block here. However it is still unclear to me whether this editor's behavior has ever altered since the copyright issue was first brought to attention (or even if it ever was before now). Has anyone ever attempted to resolve this issue with Latonov before Future Perfect at Sunrise posted the message on his talk page about plagiarism? Is there any other attempts to communicate with him on similar issues that might satisfy the RFC requirements?-- Birgitte SB  21:41, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * There was the article Talk:Vasil Zlatarski, which I discussed with him about a year ago. The topic of plagiarism wasn't very explicitly addressed at the time, but it was clear that he finally was forced to remove a whole lot of material that he had copied – a fact for which he apparently still bears me some grudge . He also watched as got banned, a couple of months ago, for very similar reasons. Nostradamus had been a perennial POV opponent of his over nationalist Bulgaria-related issues, and he finally got banned because he, too, was a plagiarist. I'm pretty certain Lantonov followed that, so he was warned. His latest large-scale piece of plagiarism was Bulgarian dialects, to which he was adding text until ten days ago . Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:12, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You only complained of POV problems and that the article was unreferenced there. So it can't be said that he has continued adding copyright violations after being alerted to the issue based on that.  And there should be two separate people who failed to resolve the dispute in order to file a RFC.  Since no one else has come forward here, I think a RFC is likely unnecessary at this point. He isn't editing right now, maybe he will no longer be a problem after receiving all this attention. It is possible that he didn't understand that his edits were copyright violations and that he misunderstood you as I misunderstood Durova in regard to plagiarism (which was the terminology you used most often in regards to his edits).  If someone had accused me of plagiarism for my creation of Pignut Hickory (which I believe would fit the looser definition you have been using), I wouldn't have taken it well and probably not regarded you seriously at all.  If you had blanked/stubbed that article with an edit summary of "removing plagiarism", I would have restored it in a second. And I follow 0RR as a general rule, I just simply wouldn't have understood that as a sincere edit.  So I can't hold that his poor response to your initial actions over this issue is any sort of evidence that he plans to continue adding copyright violations.  But if he does continue to add copyright violations after all this has been presented to him, I won't object to blocking him.  I left a note on his talk page earlier, and I would be happy to go over copyright issues with him if he is still confused-- Birgitte  SB  04:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * A user RfC seems more appropriate than this forum unless the plagiarism is ongoing. Protonk (talk) 01:45, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I think Brigitta is right that the formal conditions of an RFC aren't fulfilled, at this point, and if he really continues to be completely silent the issue of a block is, in a way, moot. And if he comes back and starts editing in the same way, he can be dealt with directly at admin level. I trust that the consensus here sets a strong enough signal that he would be blocked in such a case without renewed big discussions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Any editor who persists in violating copyright after being advised of our policies should be blocked for the legal protection of Wikipedia. I hope he will respond positively to Birgitte's question at his talk page. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Proposed solution
There was another instance last summer somewhat similar to this one. That case had more urgency: the user participated in the admin board discussion, actively rejected complaints about her copyvio/plagiarism, and busily created more citation problems while RFC was ongoing. RFC was probably the wrong route in that case, except it was necessary to form community consensus that the problem was serious and could only be solved by indefinite blocking. Here the most recent problem occurred nearly two weeks ago and the editor hasn't responded to this thread. So suggesting this solution: That would give both the editor and the community a fair chance, per AGF, while containing any more damage to small amounts. Durova Charge! 16:21, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait another day or two, and if the editor doesn't respond mark this thread as resolved (for now).
 * If the editor resumes editing and there are no new problems, then breathe a sigh of relief.
 * If new sourcing problems arise, open a conduct RFC.
 * If the editor continues creating new sourcing problems while the RFC is ongoing, take it back to this board.


 * I'm not sure what an RfC would be supposed to be good for. The need to protect the encyclopedia from copyvios is not something that "community consensus" needs to be consulted over. It's a classical, straightforward case of policy enforcement that can be handled even by a single admin at any time. Why would we want to spend days and weeks again listening to the opinions of those like Michael C. P. above? Whatever needed clarification of consensus was sufficiently discussed here. But I quite agree we can close this issue for the time being. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:15, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * RfC might convince the editor to change his or her approach. If so, then good.  If not, then it will clarify matters for the rest of the community to take preventive action.  Durova Charge! 19:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Fut perf, I do see your point. I argue that RfCs for general conduct may be preferable to discussions on AN simply because the format is more fair to all participants (for a number of reasons).  IMO, this should only be the case if the plagiarism continues but we aren't sure if what is being plagiarized is strictly a copyvio (See Close paraphrasing for where this may fall under).  Where it is obviously a copyvio or the rate of edits are such that normal editing can't deal with them (even then...), then I agree that an admin should be able to step in and attempt to resolve the situation using the tools. Protonk (talk) 21:49, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Fresh Admin Eyes
I was subject of a topic ban (expires May) which I was told could be reviewed. The admin reviewing the ban has accused me of bad faith and when I asked his reasons he did not give them and withdrew from the discussion. The logic of my argument is this. I hope an admin looking at this with fresh eyes will agree apropos point 4. Thanks. Kevin McCready (talk) 07:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) The ban was placed after my "bad" block log was cited by those favouring a ban (I was not able to contribute to the discussion).
 * 2) Admin Scientizzle was the first admin to examine the block log (other admins refused) and concluded it wasn't as bad as presented.
 * 3) Therefore the arguments presented for the ban, since they were fundamentally grounded in the "bad" block log, and people quoting it as their reason, fail.
 * 4) The ban can be lifted. It can quickly be replaced if my behaviour so warrants.
 * 5) My contributions in the last few months show this ban should be lifted. I have been complimented numerous times for good and collegiate editing and I have created new articles and reverted vandals via Recent Changes patrol.
 * 6) I have consistently apologised for the original behaviour.

A little disingenuous I think - User:VirtualSteve gave 4 reason why he felt the ban should remain in place, and only withdrew when you failed to accept that. There have been reviews on Dec 11 2008, Dec 20 2008, 13 Jan 2009, and the latest at User_talk:VirtualSteve. Unless there has been some dramatic change in the circumstances, why should the ban be lifted? Kevin (talk) 09:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I gave my reasons Kevin. The dramatic change is that no one has addressed the whatif. Whatif those in favour of the ban had been told that the block log was exaggerated and from my recollection less than half (I could be wrong) of the blocks were unwarranted. I'd be grateful if you'd address that? BTW are you an admin?

Thanks Kevin McCready
 * Yes Kevin is an admin.-- VS talk 20:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * As Kevin details above, McCready has recently come to my talk page to discuss his topic ban. A lengthy discussion lasting a couple of weeks (with another's input) ensued. That discussion has been archived but is linked here in full.  At the conclusion of that discussion I decided not to remove McReady's topic ban.  I note that topic ban only has about 30 more days to run at this time.-- VS  talk 21:12, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * My reading of this is that the acupuncture/chiropractic topic ban is indefinite, and the general pseudoscience restriction is what expires in May. Kevin (talk) 22:29, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed.-- VS talk 23:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like a sensible decision to me. ThuranX (talk) 12:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

"Official" warning
Jeez. Has anyone seen ? The effect is spoiled a bit by being signed by a user with a redlink talk page.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:22, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Reverted. Blocked.  Ignored.  That's quite enough of that.  This is plainly not a new user, and I don't think that level of disruption even merits a warning.  Now, can someone also look into this account:  which appears to be working in conjunction with him to be disruptive.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  06:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Like I said on your talk page, I'm limiting myself to reporting this. Hometown Kid and I have had content disputes, and I don't think he would thank me even if it was helping him out.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:35, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The whole "adding music charts from random countries all over the world" is an MO of a known problematic sockmaster, but I just can't place him. Perhaps someone else can?!?  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  06:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I wish someone would. I patrol five or six band articles and I tend to revert any doubtful chart info.  Of course, what is in there already is almost certainly crap, but what can you do?--Wehwalt (talk) 06:44, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that I see any real evidence of some sort of collusion between User:AtlanticDeep and User:NiceHotShower. AtlanticDeep has referred in edit summaries to the 'blacklist', but there's no edit history linking the two. It seems likely to me that they know each other off-wiki, but it's also perfectly possible (and no evidence to the contrary) that AtlanticDeep didn't think/know that NiceHotShower wasn't an admin. We should WP:AGF and presume that AtlanticDeep thought he/she was being helpful. There certainly seems to be a misunderstanding of what is and isn't vandalism, which is hardly uncommon. Perhaps a short note on their talk page explaining WP:VAND and what the legitimate reporting channels are (ie WP:AIV). If it carries on after that, well then it can be taken from there. -- Ged  UK  09:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Please delete User:NiceHotShower as page of indef-blocked user (is this speedable as WP:CSD page created by banned user? --Enric Naval (talk) 06:45, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * No, wasn't created in violation of the ban.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

(After discussion was resolved):

I don't see where anyone has notified that they were dealing with a troll, nor that there is no blacklist. If we are assuming good faith on AtlanticDeep, they should be notified. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:08, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I will put a note on his talk page, referring him to this discussion.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:06, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

List of Liberty ships: G-Je
This was originally List of Liberty ships: G-L. A recent split and move has resulted in this list being identical to List of Liberty ships: Je-L. I can't get differences to show to enable the correct ships to be listed. I did post on WT:SHIPS but there has been no response. Could an admin please restore the correct ships to this list and warn the editor who created this mess if that is felt to be appropriate. Mjroots (talk) 09:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * See WP:VPT for what led to the split. I distinctly remember the content being correctly split at the time, but there was someone else performing moves there too. And the text is so long, and in sortable tables no less, that the astronomical loading times make it very difficult to deal with this. I just used a past revision to correct the content of G-Je, hopefully. If there are any further problems let me know. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 11:01, 5 Mar 2009 (UTC)

This issue should not have been brought to ANI. Please use other venues for resolving issues first. ANI is a venue of last resort for dealing with completely uncooperative users. I don't even see anything in your contributions history that indicates you tried to communicate with the user who made these changes &mdash; it looks like you came here first. -- Cyde Weys 15:07, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "I did post on WT:SHIPS but there has been no response.",so this was not the first venue they posted at. "I can't get differences to show..." would indicate to me that Mjroots may not have been able to see who had made the move. Enter CambridgeBayWeather, waits for audience applause, not a sausage 18:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Apologies if this had been posted in the wrong place. I tried my best to fix the problem but was unable to. As I said in the original post, warning to be issued if it was appropriate to do so, which in this case it clearly was not. Main thing is that the issue has been resolved. Mjroots (talk) 18:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Problems like this should probably go to the Village Pump. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:16, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Edits to own page
has been editing his own Wikipedia page in a rather puzzling manner. He persistently removes verified facts about his life and replaces them with original research content that has no source or verification of any kind. In addition, he links to his own personal website. I find this problematic on several levels, most significantly because editing one's own page in such a biased manner demonstrates a conflict of interest and is selfserving. --Manime87 (talk) 16:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you're referring to Ahmad Batebi Toddst1 (talk) 16:50, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Without exploring the wider ramifications of his edits, there is no issue with him adding an external link to his own website. It shouldn't be used as a reference for anything controversial, but a simple link in the external links section (such as what currently appears) is not problematic.  Horologium  (talk) 17:08, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * User warned. User had been advised of proper way to handle perceived inaccuracies, but has continued to edit. Any further editing to own page will lead to a block.  AK Radecki <sup style="color:#62BB32;">Speaketh  17:17, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * the abuse of another editor must be removed, but the link to his web site can & should be be restored. DGG (talk) 20:18, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

User:HalfShadow and edit-summary incivility
This edit summary is grossly incivil (suggesting a user kill themselves). This user was warned previously about incivility by me here, was blocked for personal attacks by User:Georgewilliamherbert here and was the subject of Wikiquette_alerts/archive46. Hipocrite (talk) 18:51, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * 48 hr block imposed for the rude comment about Betacommand on ANI and talk page edit summary .  He will hopefully get the message and reform this time.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:03, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I've been noticing a lot in the way of unnecessary and provocative comments left by this user recently, hopefully the 48h block will give them time to think about reform. <font face="Trebuchet MS">&mdash; <font color="#5A3696">neuro <font color="#5A3696">(talk) 20:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

G@@p cleanup
Someone want to take care of this? Block and undoing of page moves needed. Deor (talk) 20:42, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * J.delanoy got him. Deor (talk) 20:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

The Aviator
Please see the following page, The Aviator. I have been observing some vandalism of a section of the article, but now it's advanced instead of through other means to a legal threat. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 21:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC).
 * blocked for making legal threats by Rodhullandemu. -MBK004 21:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Lingx91
Another in my list of "how on earth is this guy still around?" editors, I present to you. Series of nasty warnings, and, so far as I can tell, an unblemished record: every edit he has made has been reverted, and every article he has created has been a hoax. Is there really any reason to wait longer before the indef he will inevitably receive?&mdash;Kww(talk) 21:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I have a nagging feeling we've seen this editor before. I brought an issue here about an editor adding numerous future films and albums to numerous articles through numerous IPs. The issue was kicked back and forth from here to SPI, back here and back to SPI. There was never a meaningful resolution. Were the deleted articles mentioned in Articles for deletion/Sher'Quan J (section) (Disneymania 8 and Sher'Quan (feat...)) created under this same user name or another? - SummerPhD (talk) 21:45, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Indef blocked. Review welcome, but with a couple months of hoax articles and vandalism kicking around, I think this was the right approach. Tony Fox (arf!) 21:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Both were created by, who also created, surprise surprise, Sher'Quan Johnson (among a half-dozen others). is another in this little hosiery drawer. It's obviously a sockfest. Tony Fox (arf!) 23:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppet investigations/Lingx91 has been created to sweep for related accounts.&mdash;Kww(talk) 23:53, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Manhattan Samurai socks
and are definitely him. If a CU can be bothered, there's usually a bunch more in the same IP drawer. Thanks and best. Bali ultimate (talk) 22:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:SPI is that way → :-) Tiptoety  talk 23:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No need for SPI. These are obvious socks of a banned user. One has been blocked, but the other (Crepe King) has been not. There is no need to waste time on SPI with banned users that are this ducky.Bali ultimate (talk) 01:10, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Tippy is right, but it's obvious enough for me to block Toddst1 (talk) 01:29, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Frehley 0
Someone just apply WP:DUCK to this account being a User:Big Boss 0 sock/meatpuppet already and block it. User has done nothing but troll Wikipedia with his urls of youtube videos and message me on my talk page. — <font color="DD0000">Moe <font color="0000FF">ε  00:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Nuked. -<font color="32CD32">Jeremy <font color="4682B4">(v^_^v Cardmaker) 02:17, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Xristina Prete
Doesn't rise to the "simple, obvious" vandalism standard of AIV. is a single-purpose account devoted to adding references to a cancelled Lindsay Lohan album, "Spirit in the Dark". She was given final vandalism warnings by several editors. I noticed that no one had ever explained to her exactly why her edits were being considered vandalism, so, when she did it again after a final vandalism warning, I dropped a note explaining why. Her response was to deface the redirect page (which I silently reverted), and today, she's back adding that album into everything again. .&mdash;Kww(talk) 15:08, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Although not an admin myself I suggest a block per final warnings.... <font style="color:# 787878;background:# 41653D;"> rdunn <font style="color:# 41653D;">PLIB 11:07, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I concur, it would seem ample warning has been given. Vincent Valentine 04:44, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Disruptive Activity by User:Scripturalreasoning
I'm reporting disruptive activity on the talk page of the article scriptural reasoning by user:scripturalreasoning. This user has speculated openly about my identity and place of work in an attempt at harrassment. I would be grateful for adminship. Thelongview (talk) 16:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There does seem to be a hint of legal threat over on WP:COIN. Verbal   chat  16:09, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm reporting FALSE and personally harassing statements made by user Thelongview who has repeatedly made allegations of my fabricating statements which have been made by the Trustees of an organisation and, and uploading material to websites of which I am NOT the IT officer. See here I have repeatedly asked him to withdraw these false and untrue statements for which he has no evidence, but rather there is evidence to the contrary.  He has refused to withdraw these FALSE personal statements and accusations about me:


 * ''"I have not removed any material which is reliably referenced. The website scripturalreasoning.org.uk now has a page in which the views of Scripturalreasoning are faithfully reproduced. References to 'trustees' (whose names or affiliations nowhere appear on that website) are spurious: the website material was clearly mounted online by Scripturalreasoning. The website scripturalreasoning.org.uk, whose material is mounted by Scripturalreasonining, is not a reliable source. Thelongview (talk) 11:40, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The Scriptural Reasoning Society is not a registered charity. Thelongview (talk) 11:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)"


 * I have responded to some other FALSE statements by user Thelongview at COI


 * --Scripturalreasoning (talk) 16:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I have already instructed user Thelongview to desist from making false statements exactly one month ago.


 * *I do not own and am not "responsible" as the IT person in charge of the website http://www.scripturalreasoning.org.uk/ This is registered in the name of, hosted and primarily managed by another colleague - I contribute certain SR study materials.  Those "responsible" for its content are the Trustees.  Please stop making false statements.  Thank you. --Scripturalreasoning (talk) 20:44, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * "SR Study materials" are translations and sacred texts from the Bible, Quran and commentaries on these sacred materials, contributed to the Scriptural Reasoning work of the Society alongside the contributions of various other colleagues -- as may be seen. He has continued to make false allegations despite my requesting him to stop.


 * --Scripturalreasoning (talk) 16:57, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Copied from WP:COI/N:
 * WP:U violation reported for review by relevant admins. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">samj <sub style="color:maroon;">in <sup style="color:green;">out 17:02, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The WP:OUTING above ("Thelongview WHO IS EMPLOYED as a X of Y, and a lead member of Z") even after User:Thelongview recently explained that "I am concerned to preserve my anonymity on Wikipedia, and as things stand it is looking as though I might have to abandon work on the article on 'Scriptural Reasoning' in order to achieve that" is also rather problematic. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">samj <sub style="color:maroon;">in <sup style="color:green;">out 17:08, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

In addition to the WP:LEGAL threats mentioned above (retracted) and WP:COI related violations of various policies it seems intervention is required. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">samj <sub style="color:maroon;">in <sup style="color:green;">out 17:13, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Scripturalreasoning may fit the description of an account that's "considered disruptive and may be blocked". The question is whether it exists for the sole or primary purpose of promoting the Scriptural Reasoning Society.  S HEFFIELD S TEEL TALK 17:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It's hard to figure out what is going on here because there are lots of undercurrents. As far as I can tell, the Scriptural Reasoning Society is a British entity that may consist of a single person; I haven't actually seen even one name associated with it, except the copyright holder for the web site.  It should be contrasted with the Society for Scriptural Reasoning, an American entity that has identifiable members and is notable in various ways. Looie496 (talk) 19:34, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I am also very unhappy about how close this editor has sailed to the wind in regards to our policy on outing. I think he has gone too far. I am glad to see that he has agreed to change his/her username. dougweller (talk) 20:03, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe the fundamental issue is that there are two groups claiming rights to this name, and they each consider the other illegitimate. Obviously, we're not going to judge that. We may need an article for each of the organizations. DGG (talk) 20:21, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The position is not complicated. The Scriptural Reasoning Society is a registered charitable project of the Interfaith Alliance UK which references it.  The nine Trustees of the latter organisation are listed on the Charity Commission website.  It consists of four groups, including the SR Oxford which is sponsored by the Centre for Muslim-Christian Studies whose head leads that group, SR Camden and SR Westminster all sponsored by the Camden Faith Communities Partnership (a Christian minister of which is a convener of the SR Camden), Liberal Jewish Synagogue (a rabbi of which is also a Trustee and leads the Westminster Group), Liberal Judaism (the Society's registered address, and a rabbi of which is a Trustee and lead of the Camden group), St John's Church (another convener of the SR Westminster).  It has meetings every month in various places of worship, which dozens of people come to, and has a membership of over 200 --- contrast that with the tiny number of 37 who are members of the Scriptural Reasoning Theory Group.  The SR Society has a Board of Trustees which are the same as the Interfaith Alliance UK, it has a Coordinator, an IT officer and local coordinators.  NONE of these people are ME.  The FALSE statements made or implied by user Thelongview are particularly galling, since his colleagues and boss have actually met with the SR Society's coordinating body, and I have met this chap as well.  These facts are therefore all PUBLICLY KNOWN.  The false statements which have been repeated by user Thelongview despite my repeatedly requesting him to desist from making, constitute clear harassment -- are outrageous and Administrators must act on the false statements being made.  Why has this not happened?


 * My own position is clear. I have said before in an earlier edit that:


 * "Also, for the record, I have no "loyalty" at all for the Scriptural Reasoning Society as an institution/structure, despite my having contributed a lot of work to it. My loyalty and commitment is to certain values of parity, equality, truth and non-exploitation in the practice of Scriptural Reasoning as a whole (whichever group does it). The SRS can get stuffed as far as I'm concerned, if there is any hint of its Trustees and officers abandoning those ethical principles to which I am passionately committed"


 * If you read the Discussion Page for the article, you will see clearly that my position is consistently that the WP article Scriptural Reasoning has been used by user Thelongview and others to advertise and promote the practice of Scriptural Reasoning, make exaggerated claims for its size and innovative nature, and one particular group in particular. My position is that that Scriptural Reasoning is nothing particularly novel, there are many other organisations (JCM Conference, Limmud, Lambeth Palace Building Bridges Seminars) which have done virtually identical types of interfaith text study work, and the great majority of references to the article are from exactly the same tiny group of 37 people who are all involved in the active promotion of Scriptural Reasoning.  All criticism of the practice of Scriptural Reasoning has now been suppressed by Thelongview --- Therefore, it is the CRITICISM of Scriptural Reasoning (NOT ITS PROMOTION) to which I am committed, so that hardly constitutes promotion of any Scriptural Reasoning organisation (SR Society or otherwise).  Wikipedia NPOV requires an article to contain a balance of viewpoints -- including critique -- and I am astonished that Administrators would allow such promotional and advertising bias to go unchallenged.  I am INDIFFERENT to the listing of the Scriptural Reasoning Society and its various activities --- it is FAIR CRITICISM of Scriptural Reasoning, NOT PROMOTION to which I am committed.  As Administrators, you surely cannot allow the article to become a promotional brochure for the practice of Scriptural Reasoning by those whose very job involves promotion of SR. --Carpathy2009 (talk) 20:56, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Not complicated indeed, and also completely beside the point, which is user misconduct. I have indefinitely blocked, formerly , for being a single purpose account who uses Wikipedia solely to promote a particular WP:TRUTH, coupled with substantial user conduct concerns as outlined by others above. I'm fine with review and, if need be, any change to or lifting of the block should other admins assess the situation differently.  Sandstein  21:38, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Support. Unfortunate that they didn't heed the multiple complaints, warnings, and requests to reform.  They may get the message now - hopefully they can reform into a positive contributor - but for the time being, this was appropriate.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

History of quaternions
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_quaternions&action=history Several people have stated the consensus was clearly keep, and not to simply delete everything and put a redirect there. Several edits and reverts have taken place. Attempts to discuss it on the talk page, have failed to get either side to agree. I was told to take the issue here.

During the AFD discussion, after overwhelming majority of people thus far had said Keep, User:C S stated:
 * Comment on future redirect: It doesn't matter if this article is deleted or not. If it ain't deleted, I'm just going to replace the whole thing with a redirect to quaternion. Maybe there's something legitimate here that isn't already there (as indicated by G-Guy), but I don't see it. I'll take a look before deleting the whole thing though. --C S (talk) 22:56, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I asked about this, and got a response:

Is that going against consensus?  D r e a m Focus  17:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * yes <font style="color:# 787878;background:# 41653D;"> rdunn <font style="color:# 41653D;">PLIB 18:05, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The article is a mass of unsourced garbage, and the "Keep" is the standard Wikipedia reaction that it is better to tell people things that are false than not to tell them anything. I advocate not being too hard on C S here. Looie496 (talk) 19:08, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There was consensus for a rewrite. So do it. You're the expert, and can probably do it best. If you think you can make an argument for the redirect instead of a rewrite get consensus for it. DGG (talk) 20:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

There's also some brief discussion at WT:WPM repeating the assertion that "the article is a mass of unsourced garbage". Passing an AfD is not a mandate to avoid cleaning up problems with an article. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:50, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Of course it is not, but it is a clear statement that the community wants the article to exist as an actual article, not as a redirect. If users think the article is a mass of garbage, they should clean it up or gain consensus to delete/merge/redirect it. That consensus is not present as evidenced by the AFD, so the only option is to clean up the article, not continue to redirect it while ignoring the AFD outcome.  The   Seeker 4   Talk  20:18, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Three points were agreed on at the AFD: Dream Focus can't tell the difference between deletion, decided by AfD, and normal editing, which includes merger and redirection. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:36, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a subject on which we should have an article (I agree)
 * We should therefore not delete the existing article (one respondent added "even if it needs to be burnt to the ground and rebuilt")
 * The article, as it was  put up for AfD, does need to be burnt to the ground.
 * Pmanderson, take note of the words "The page is then either kept, merged and/or redirected, transwikied (copied to another Wikimedia project), renamed/moved to another title, userfied to the creator's user page or user subpage, or deleted per the deletion policy." on the AFD page. While one should not bring a page to AFD with the intention of making it into a redirect, it can be closed as such, and consensus was not to close it as redirect, it was to simply keep it. Fun  Pika  20:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Read the opinions. Nobody, except the main author, liked the article as nominated; there was no consensus to keep that text. Indeed, one Keep !vote replied to But can this be improved? Take out the partisanship and the irrelevancies, and what is left? with "a redirect". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * A lot of problems could be avoided and time saved if people would simply WP:BOLDly redirect bad or redundant pages instead of bringing them to AFD. THF (talk) 22:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm surprised Dream Focus didn't wave the bloody shirts of Akane-chan Overdrive and Hate to Love You. He/she has a history of contesting merges and redirects he/she doesn't like. His/her activities, especially at AFD, should be scrutinized along with his/her userpage, which has become a lengthy attack page on "deletionists". --Farix (Talk) 23:44, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have complained before when people vote Keep, only to have nothing kept at all, or when the vote is merge, and not one bit of information is merged, nor is there the intention of anything actually being merged, it ending up all being deleted. If I see an injustice, I will protest.  Now then, the vote here was an overwhelming keep.  And yet, once again, I see a redirect there.  Can someone lock the article until a decisions is made?   D r e a m Focus  00:51, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * While I agree (oh Lord do I agree) with the sentiment that an article described as "a mass of unsourced garbage" should not be kept, the AFD consensus was clearly to keep the article as an article and hope that someone makes it better. People participating in AFD discussion are free to say that they think it should be a redirect, and by and large they didn't.
 * That being said, since everyone does appear to agree that the article is crap: is it possible to just take the text at the redirect target, Quaternions, and make THAT the article (and then expand and improve on it as necessary)? Then you'd have an existing article with text that the redirect advocates can apparently live with. Just a thought in case that hasn't already been suggested. Propaniac (talk) 00:00, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I think what several contributors to this thread fail to recognize is that it is often possible to see that an article contains misinformation without knowing enough to fix it. When that happens, as it frequently does, the article tends to just sit there indefinitely with false information.  In my opinion, the fact that a topic is important enough to deserve an article ought not to mean that an article containing misinformation needs to be kept intact until an expert comes along to repair it. Looie496 (talk) 00:16, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Then you tag it with a citation needed, and if no one finds one, then you erase whatever you believe is false.  D r e a m Focus  00:51, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

People not interested in discussing or involving themselves in the normal editorial process of editing an article should not be policing an article such as Dream Focus is doing. Other editors such as Pmanderson, Crowsnest, Jheald, etc. are actually discussing the content, making modifications and working on content. What's going on here is that Dream Focus "voted" to keep, is annoyed that people aren't abiding by this decision (even though they are interested in improving the situation), and s/he wants to enforce the decision no matter what, even if the decision in the end of all interested Wikipedians is to redirect. Is this the kind of behavior we want to encourage? I think Dream Focus has a lot to learn about how Wikipedia works. Perhaps I was too honest in my comments in the AFD. I could have lied, but I chose to explain the real situation as it is. What I described is the normal Wikipedia process. If Dream Focus doesn't like that the eventual result of what happens is not governed by the AFD, too bad. --C S (talk) 01:59, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If we do things your way, then the AFD mean absolutely nothing. Wikipedia rules have not been followed.  That is the only issue here.  Why bother having an AFD at all, if the results are ignored?  If an article is deleted by consensus at AFD, and someone keeps trying to recreate it, they are stopped.  But if an article is voted Keep by consensus at AFD, and someone tries to erase all the information there, then some find no problems with that at all.  I would imagine most people would be bothered by this.  And you don't improve an article by deleting it.   D r e a m Focus  02:14, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * A "keep" AFD does not preclude redirecting the article, nor removing information that editors find dubious for which sufficient references have not been provided. The only thing that a "keep" AFD precludes is literally deleting the article. The discussion about whether to redirect or edit the article belongs on the article's talk page, not here, unless the article literally has been deleted. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 02:18, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * For the near future it does, until a different consensus is established, and i can see no reason why a new afd would return any different result, keep and not redirect is the current consensus. Regardless of whether you agree with it or not, please respect it. --<span style="font-size: 10pt; text-decoration: underline; color:black; border: 1pt solid white; padding: 0pt 4pt; background-color: white;">neon white talk 04:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The consensus right now amongst people actually working on the article is to keep the redirect in place. Thanks, by the way, for stopping by to tell us that we need to "drop this" and get to work on the article, especially when all this controversy was stirred up by Dream Focus.  I'm sure once Dream Focus loses interest, we will indeed be able to get to work on the article.  --C S (talk) 05:21, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * No, the AFD doesn't mean "absolutely nothing". It lets people have an idea of the consensus of what should be done with the article.  In this case, people were more or less unanimous in that most (if not all) of the article should be nuked and a better one written.  That is what is being done right now.  And you are interfering with your clownish antics here.  There's no reason at all that the article should not be redirected to a well-written history section while discussion is underway on creating this "better article" alluded to by AFD participants.  Nobody that is advocating the redirect really has any personal grudge against the topic "history of quaternions", as you seem to imagine.  If there is a good "history of quaternion" article written, it will undoubtedly stay, and indeed, the people you've been edit-warring with are working on such an aritlce right now.  And what have you been doing to help this?  Nothing.  --C S (talk) 02:27, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * This isn't the first time Dream Focus has pulled this stunt, and probably won't be the last until an admin starts handing out blocks. Of course the most ironic thing is that he insists we WP:IAR during AFD discussions but then that we follow all keep/no consensus results to the letter. --Farix (Talk) 04:12, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Blast from the past: likely block evasion by User:Jacksbernstein


This article, which has a long history of socking by a banned editor trying to sanitize it in 2007 (see ), now has a SPA IP edit-warring to add WP:PUFFy reviews of Toluca Lake theater productions and add details misrepresenting cited sources about the subject's attempted murder trial. RFCU is of course impossible, but some help on this WP:DUCK -- either through page semi-protection or blocking the IP -- would be appreciated. THF (talk) 06:06, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Build the web again
Please can someone with time to look at the issue in some detail come and sort this out (WP:Build the web). It is ridiculous that a group of determined cynics, even including an admin, are allowed to continue this campaign of edit-warring against consensus and reason.--Kotniski (talk) 09:02, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Once again Kotniski is telling his version of the events. What is ridiculous is that a couple of users can claim a "consensus" between them to dismantle a seven-year-old guideline, and keep maintaining this claim despite numerous parties disagreeing with them, clearly demonstrating that there is no consensus. If anything, his continual reversions of the article are what bear investigating. — Hex    (❝  ?!  ❞)   09:08, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Once agin, Hex is simply lying, I don't know how else to describe it. It is not a "couple of users" and it is not "dismantling" a guideline, it was merged with others to make a much better one. Hex and the others are simply craeting noise to distract people's attention from the fact that consensus was reached, and recently confirmed, in detailed and reasoned discussion.--Kotniski (talk) 09:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Give me a break. To quote an edit summary, "you can't just get rid of a seven year old guideline after 40 hours of discussion on an unrelated talk page with no community notification". You proposed the merge on January 9th, and did it on January 11th. That's not enough time to qualify as "detailed and reasoned discussion" on a guideline of this age. And now a number of editors have found out about your merger after the fact, and are unhappy. That is not "creating noise". The "couple of users" are you and Tony1, who can be seen in the edit history of BTW repeatedly demoting it despite having it pointed out to you numerous times that until a dispute over a guideline is resolved, it retains its status with the addition of a "disputed" tag. — Hex    (❝  ?!  ❞)   09:23, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The merge was done after many weeks/months of discussion, and everyone was very happy about it until someone decided that it would suit his immediate purposes (no doubt from somewhere in the Kafka-esque workings of the ArbCom date linking case) to undo part of what had been universally agreed. And to say it's just me and Tony is simply untrue and you know it - you were part of the discussion where the decision to merge the pages was confirmed, and you know that there were far more than just two people, and you might also have the integrity to admit that our arguments were far stronger (instead of just leaving the discussion when you can't answer them, only to return later with nothing new to say). Really, I've never seen anything like this before from experienced editors and admins - when something's been decided, we accept it and move on. OK you can try to develop a new consensus based on rational argument, but it's totally disruptive to simply deny all knowledge about the consensus that has been reached. This is the same attitude, as far as I can tell, that has led to the date linking issue still not being settled. Whatever people decide, just refuse to accept the consensus. Make noise; admins won't look at the details, they'll just assume each side is being as bad as each other and you stand a good chance of getting what you want. This isn't how WP should be working. --Kotniski (talk) 10:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's a thought: you two stop sniping at each other and start providing diffs. // roux <span style="border:1px solid #00009C;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;">  16:05, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What diffs would you like? That there was unanimous support for the merger can be seen from the discussion at WP:Linking (and the most recent archive). That there was strong support to keep it merged can be seen from the current WT:Linking. That Hex and co have been made aware of this can be seen from later exchanges there and at WT:BTW. That they have nevertheless kept reverting to the non-consensus state can be seen from the page history of WP:BTW. That they are not even attempting to discuss or provide counter-arguments any more (except the traditional "no consensus" nonsense) can be seen by the absence of such. It's not a case of one or two diffs. If you want to sort it out, you'll need to spend a bit of time investigating and discussing.--Kotniski (talk) 16:35, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Please provide specific links to those discussions. A past revision of the page would be fine as opposed to just a diff--something that shows the discussion specifically. What you're saying is like saying "There was a discussion on ANI, go spend some time investigating." To put it more bluntly: support your position with specifics or walk away. Thanks. // roux <span style="border:1px solid #00009C;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;">  16:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * See link to the discussion from October in my comment below. —Locke Cole • t • c 16:55, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There was "unanimous" support because many believed you (myself included) when you said a poll had already been conducted on the merger itself. What you failed to mention was that the poll was held over a span of 28 hours (proposed at 12:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC), closed at 16:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)), involved maybe ten editors, and was not even advertised on WT:BTW (meaning people who watchlisted that page weren't even aware of the straw poll!). That's not consensus, that's a hijacking. —Locke Cole • t • c 16:55, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

A couple of thoughts. One is that many of the disputants here are the same folks involved in a current ArbCom case. (And yes, so am I, although I haven't heard of this dispute until now.) It does seem that this flame war is growing into a forest fire. Second, at the top of the Talk page of this policy are links to the user pages of a number of Wikipedians who stated that they endorse this policy: I'm one of them, & I haven't heard of this "consensus" until now, probably because no one involved bothered to drop a note to ask me to participate in the discussion. I wonder how many of the other Wikipedians in this list were asked to participate; had this been done it would support an assumption that a Good Faith effort had been made to find a consensus based in the larger community, & not just in one faction of an ongoing, er, feud. -- llywrch (talk) 00:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The consensus brought together both factions of the feud; it's just that one faction has suddenly decided the status quo doesn't suit them. And the question is not whether anyone endorses this policy; it was merged, not demoted. The question is whether there should be two or three separate guidelines on the same topic, telling different sides of the story, or just one comprehensive one with all the information. If you want to argue for separation, please do at the appropriate place. But here is the evidence asked for:

Restoring from the archive (trimming some off-topic and own comments). Please can someone either deal with this or tell me why action is not appropriate.--Kotniski (talk) 08:23, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) That consensus for the merge properly formed after long, detailed discussion: Wikipedia_talk:Only_make_links_that_are_relevant_to_the_context/Archive 7 (as a continuation of other threads on that page: search for "merge"), partly continued at WT:Linking (all threads down to - and don't be misled by this title, it was about a temporary problem that was soon settled - "Please reverse the merger")
 * 2) That the merge proposal was advertised at BTW for months: this sample diff (note merge pointer at top of page), and the actual merge was announced there: WT:Build the web, and attracted no opposition from anyone at that page (this redirecting edit remained stable for over a month)
 * 3) That the recent discussion on the topic (advertised at Template:Cent and well known to all involved parties) confirmed, or certainly by no stretch of the imagination tended to overturn, the previous consensus: (the thread "Resurrect this guideline?") - this was substantially how it was when the edits referred to below were made
 * 4) That several editors, being aware of the above consensus (since they had participated in the discussion), continued to edit the page against that consensus by restoring the very guideline tag that the discussion had concluded was inappropriate:, , , , , (I admit my previous edit may have been wrong there, but still no justification is given for restoring the guideline tag as well as the disputed tag), , , ,.
 * Ah, I suppose it might help if I said what action I was asking for. The admin will make up their own mind, of course, but I would have thought a firm note left on the talk page stating that the page was merged by consensus, that the text was restored for discussion purposes, but that it should not carry any tag as to its status (e.g. as a guideline) until consensus is reached to add such a tag.--Kotniski (talk) 14:03, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The fact that no admins did anything should be your answer here. This really has hit the point of WP:FORUMSHOP; you're continually reposting this dispute until you get the answer you want. Move to re-archive this discussion forthwith. // roux <span style="border:1px solid #614051;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;">  17:42, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know what other forums I'm alleged to have posted this in. (I raised a general question at one other place, that's all.) If admins have looked at this and decided that action is inappropriate, then I presume they would say why. Since they haven't, I presume they haven't looked into it yet, so no-one is in a position to say whether it's appropriate to archive it or not. I spent my time getting together the evidence when asked - the least the admin community could do is respond to the substance of the report.--Kotniski (talk) 06:57, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The general, and reasonable, assumption is that admins have looked at it and decided a) no action necessary, and b) commenting just creates more drama. If only 25% of active admins have ANI on their watchlists, at least two hundred pairs of admin eyeballs have seen this. // roux <span style="border:1px solid #00009C;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;">  07:50, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Seen, yes; but looked at, probably not. In cases where no action is necessary, it is normal to say so and say why, suerly?--Kotniski (talk) 08:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

It should be noted that more absue has broken out on this page WP:Build the web (see today's history). Now we're seeing date links being added to the guideline (totally without consensus as should be well-known to everyone), and still all attempts to remove the guideline tag or restore the consensus redirect are being resisted. The text of the page was specifically restored for discussion purposes only; it should never have been re-marked as a guideline, even a disputed one - this is totally against consensus and principles of good faith. (More trouble is at Template:Wikipedia policies and guidelines and Template:Guideline list - I've attempted a compromise there, maybe it will stick.)--Kotniski (talk) 08:57, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Can we all sit down, relax, and realise that we're arguing over whether or not we link dates in an encyclopedia on the internet? Seriously, the tensions here are not justified by the stakes. &mdash; Werdna  &bull;  talk  09:09, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No, we're not talking about that (date linking isn't even the main issue here). We're talking about whether a consensus decision can be made to be respected without our having to resort to canvassing all the people who came to that decision and asking them to come and join in an edit war. If consensus means nothing, and only willingness to fight is allowed to count in determining the content of our encyclopedia or its guidelines, then we create a battlefield. People like me, who genuinely work towards consensus time and again, and act on it when it is achieved for the betterment of WP, will not stick around. I hate this fighting and the fact that I've been drawn into it, and I also hate the implication that I'm "on my own" because I haven't tried to draw other representatives of the consensus view into the quagmire. I genuinely expected some support from admins over this, and hope that when someone has the time to look into it in detail you will see why I am very concerned and upset about this. --Kotniski (talk) 10:30, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If it's not about date linking, can you explain your edit here, where you remove something from BTW related to date linking?
 * As to consensus, two admins have already tried to explain that there was not enough discussion for there to be consensus to merge BTW with MOSLINK and CONTEXT. Yet you persist here trying to force your "consensus" (which was decided in 28 hours, on an unrelated talk page, involving mostly MOS regulars) instead of attempting something involving wider community involvement (or simply dropping the matter entirely, to be addressed again at some later date if you feel passionately about it). You also seem bent on edit warring over this (I won't lie; I've edit warred with you over this, but you seem to have been more active on WP:BTW in trying to keep it at a version you prefer). Please drop this and move on to something productive. —Locke Cole • t • c 10:36, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know which two admins you are talking about, or when this happened, or why you say that it was decided in 28 hours when it happened over months as the link I have provided shows, or why you ignore the fact that the decision was confirmed when wider community involvement was sought as the second link I have provided shows, or why you think you have the right to keep a guideline tag there by force (albeit with a disputed tag, but the combination of these two tags normally implies something quite different) when there is not anything even approaching a sign of consensus that it should be there. If you think it's not important, then you might consider dropping it yourself. (But if we are going to do a WP:SPIDER act, then there couldn't be a more aptly named page, I suppose... )--Kotniski (talk) 10:51, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The two admins could quite posibly be User:Hex and User:Werdna coz' if you look carefully they both have said to slow down and check. <font style="color:# 787878;background:# 41653D;"> rdunn <font style="color:# 41653D;">PLIB  11:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, a single uninvolved admin has opined on WT:BTW about the lack of consensus for the merge (could have swore there was a second one, I'll look again later): 15:39, 4 March 2009 02:25, 5 March 2009. And yes, discussion was held over 28 hours (it was archived and wrapped in an uninviting "discussion closed" box). The second discussion, the one started after you'd written your merged page, seemed to indicate that the decision to merge was an accomplished fact and that what was being discussed was the finalized wording. Now, unless you're of the mind that 28 hours is sufficient to overturn 7 years of guideline status for this page, I suggest you back away and come back to this again in a few months time when the dust has settled. —Locke Cole • t • c 11:18, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No time to discuss further in detail now, but Hex is not a neutral admin, Werdna didn't say anything about consensus, and the link clearly shows discussion over months not hours.--Kotniski (talk) 11:27, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

As no-one can agree on whether a concensus had been reached or not, shall we just start again rather than letting this just drag on.... <font style="color:# 787878;background:# 41653D;"> rdunn <font style="color:# 41653D;">PLIB 15:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Congratulations! You have just fallen for the spiralling consensus trap. This is exactly the result "they" want. If consensus is against them, they just dispute the consensus. Since consensus cannot be precisely defined, no-one can prove it exists without applying a bit of judgement, so it's always possible to keep the argument going if you want. If no-one with authority is prepared to step in and say stop, I judge that there is sufficient consensus here to do this and we will now do it, then effectively we are not ruled by consensus, we are ruled by the law of the edit warriors' jungle. In most cases it comes down to the same thing, but in this case we can clearly see that it hasn't (the page has been protected with a tag on it that consensus would never have placed there), and we should correct that. To fail to do so is to treat cooperative members of the community with contempt, and ensure that we gain more and more edit warriors.--Kotniski (talk) 15:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * For example, I judge there is sufficient consensus to block the warring parties. Hiberniantears (talk) 15:51, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed <font style="color:# 787878;background:# 41653D;"> rdunn <font style="color:# 41653D;">PLIB 17:36, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * a few things (all to Kotniski)
 * a) who is "they"?
 * b) If consensus is against them, they just dispute the consensus. Since consensus cannot be precisely defined, no-one can prove it exists without applying a bit of judgement, so it's always possible to keep the argument going if you want from an outsiders view (ie mine) it seems like the argument is going in circles.
 * c) the concensus as you say is clear and others not therefore cancleing each other out (hence my above suggestion)
 * d) If no-one with authority is prepared to step in and say stop
 * Werdna did say "Can we all sit down, relax,"
 * e) we are ruled by the law of the edit warriors' jungle. the law is to do it with a CLEAR consensus (which it hasnt happened(see point c))
 * f) (no deliberate offence intended) and ensure that we gain more and more edit warriors to the untrained eye it seems you (indirectly) include yourself may i point out <font style="color:# 787878;background:# 41653D;"> rdunn <font style="color:# 41653D;">PLIB 17:36, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

All right, we still don't quite understand each other, but the page has been protected now anyway, so further discussion is continuing there. Closing this report.--Kotniski (talk) 09:17, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

German machine guns & submachine guns: 8 queryable move requests

 * Requested moves contains 8 requests by User:Koalorka to move 8 articles about German machine guns & submachine guns to a form with a space in. These requests are in the form e.g. "MG42 → MG 42 — WP:Firearms concensus, space provided. — Koalorka (talk) 20:55, 4 March 2009 (UTC)". But where is this concensus? Special:PrefixIndex finds no relevant pages with names starting "WP:Fire" or "Wikipedia:Fire". When these guns were made, it seems to have been official German military usage to leave the space out. See User talk:Koalorka for warnings and a blocking against him. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:09, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * WikiProject Firearms might be the place to start looking. BencherliteTalk 10:19, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

May I point out that ANI is not the appropriate venue of first resort when dealing with non-vandalism move disputes. Take it to the relevant WikiProject first, ask the mover questions on his talk page, discuss it on the articles' talk pages, etc. The point of WP:ANI is to deal with incidents that need administrator intervention, and this one certainly does not. -- Cyde Weys 15:02, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Misuse of site protectioning
user:YellowMonkey protected the site A. R. Rahman indefinitely diff. The reason he has given is Protected A. R. Rahman: one anon defying consensus ([edit=autoconfirmed] (indefinite) [move=autoconfirmed] (indefinite))

The discussion on the issue can be found here: Talk:A._R._Rahman It is all about the inclusion of a regional award ceremony called Filmfare Awards in the lead section as well as in the table of discography. The dispute is about the notability of Filmfare Awards.

Why I report this: The long time consensus for this page was only to include National, State Awards and International Awards which are truly serious and hence worthy to be mentioned at the A. R. Rahman article. So the summary explanation of this protection had nothing substantial in this regard. It's not me who was defying consensus, but Bollywood soldiers like Sh* and Jagged85, who still insist to take these controversial Awards into the lead section by degrading official State Awards. The long time consensus was stable until these two Warriors arrived with Filmfares in their luggage. If you look in YellowMonkey's talk page, you can easily find a connection between Monkey and Sh**. You will easily come to the conclusion, that Monkey intentionally did a "small favor" to his old comrade. This is the way, the article looked all the time until A. R. Rahman won his two Oscars with very minor differences to previous versions: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=A._R._Rahman&diff=273654746&oldid=273653684 Filmfare Awards were mentioned only in the Award section, not in the lead or in the big table. And here is the "consensus" YellowMonkey is talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._R._Rahman Filmfare is in the lead in the first place. The table is spammed up with these Filmfare magazine Awards.

--91.130.91.92 (talk) 01:46, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Protection looks appropriate to me. Consensus may change, but you won't be able to force it through edit warring. Keep working on productive discussion on the talk page. You shouldn't need to edit the article while the discussion is ongoing, because there are no emergencies on Wikipedia. Kafziel Complaint Department 01:58, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What I find funny is that this anon reverted things repeatedly by everyone who broke his POV. He claims that one film award function must be removed while it is the most prominent and veteran in India (because of personal biasness which I won't explain here), and although other editors assumed good faith, proved the importance of the ceremony, he kept continuously reverting the edits of anyone who dared to re-add it. And this "long time consensus" this anon is talking about is just his invention, no such consensus exists and is not likely to exist. Apart from this, the state awards are not notable at all, and this is something he does not try to disprove. I consider his repeated reversals (which contradict consensus and basic facts) plain vandalism, so YellowMonkey was extremely kind. Apart from this, the article was heavily vandalised since his Oscar win.  Shahid  •  Talk 2 me  06:58, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Francis Magalona
Someone needs to take a look at this page, reports that person has died, edit warring, vandalism, etc etc     05:36, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I've watchlisted, though being totally unfamiliar with the subject, help will be limited. Given the huge number of sources, it appears the death is true. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 09:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Abuse?
Not sure where this belongs, but some newly-registered 'user' wants to harass me. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 11:48, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Obvious malicious impersonator, blocked.  Acroterion  (talk)  12:42, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Functional Decomposition Methodology
This article is at AfD as being OR and SPAM. In my !vote I pointed out that the only reference, to the author's employer's website, didn't mention the subject. He has now corrected the reference; but that makes things worse, because it is now clear that the article is a straight copyvio. The AfD debate is leaning towards a redirect, because the subject the title refers to could be notable; however it has also been proposed that the title redirected from should be slightly different from the present one. I considered tagging the article db-copyvio, but am not sure that would be proper with two days of AfD to run, so I am seeking advice here. My suggestion would be: speedy-delete the present article as copyvio, and make a new redirect from Functional decomposition methodology (proper capitalisation) to Functional decomposition. The AfD debate makes the background clear. JohnCD (talk) 16:24, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Possible unauthorised bot?
Creating five or six pages per minute, a short while ago. ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 16:59, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think their contribs are fast enough to be a bot. J.delanoy <sup style="color:red;">gabs <sub style="color:blue;">adds  17:03, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The articles seem like the kind we want, why not do the normal thing and go ask him or her about it?--<font color="Blue">Jac <font color="Green">16888 Talk 17:10, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Because the bot policy is not that unauthorised scripts are fine if they're doing good work. It says that unauthorised scripts are... erm, unauthorised! I am not an expert, and wanted further input - talking to the user ("the normal thing"!!!) isn't likely to produce a useful answer = they'll never admit to using a bot even if they are...
 * Sorry to bother you all, though! ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 17:13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What happened to assuming good faith? -Djsasso (talk) 17:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're concerned about someone's behaviour, you're always going to be told to talk to them first. But a glance at their contribs doesn't look like a bot. Probably preparing articles offline or in a sandbox. Wily D 17:21, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

(ec)I found it difficult to understand how someone could create ~6 decent articles per minute over a sustained period of time. Assuming good faith is great fun, yes, but to deny the very possibility of bad faith is rather foolish IMO. I still have no clue how this user is managing to do it, but I have clearly stated several times that I am not clear about whether it is a script or not, and that I am not an expert. If you think I've behaved badly, I unreservedly apologise, and am now marking the issue resolved before anything anything else happens. ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 17:24, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I actually meant assume good faith in messaging him and not assuming he will deny it. -Djsasso (talk) 17:32, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry. ╟─ Treasury Tag ► contribs ─╢ 17:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * All of the articles consist of basically the same content, so using a simple copy/paste, one could easily create 5 or 6 stubs per minute. Juliancolton (talk) 17:36, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I think we should assume good faith of TreasuryTag ;-) If I saw that, I'd probably be suspicious too. Absolutely nothing wrong with being cautious. Don't jump on his back (referring to no one in particular) just because the guy came here for some guidance :-) <font color="black" face="tahoma">Scarian Call me Pat!  21:00, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Recall initiated against MBisanz
has instigated an administrator recall request against, alleging that his deletion of  constituted an abuse of his admin tools. I have been asked to clerk this process, and am posting this notice here pursuant to MBisanz's recall policy. This policy stipulates that if five administrators meeting specified criteria endorse the recall request within 48 hours, MBisanz will either resign adminship or initiate a reconfirmation RFA. As I am posting this notice at a number of locations, I would suggest that all discussion be centralized at User talk:MBisanz/Recall. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 19:22, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Allow my bad faith to come through here, but an editor who made one article, and oddly enough may indeed be the person in the article (bringing up, WP:COI & WP:AUTO just off the top of my head) is upset that an admin make a, in my opinion, GOOD deletion, and wants that admin recalled? Yeah....something's fishy here. Wildthing61476 (talk) 19:31, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * As an uninvolved admin, MBisanz's deletion looks appropriate. -- Avi (talk) 19:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * As some people seem to be unwilling to read - ahem - I would suggest that all discussion be centralized at User talk:MBisanz/Recall - ahem... -- Avant-garde a clue - hexa Chord <sup style="color:#FFFF00;">2  19:39, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That page is for discussion regarding MBisanz's use of admin tools. Comments regarding the AfD in question and the validity of the situation are fine here. –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  19:42, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think deletion review would even be a better place for that.-- Avant-garde a clue - hexa Chord <sup style="color:#FFFF00;">2  19:47, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed, that'd be here. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 20:03, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't want to point it out that directly, since WP:CANVASS isn't far away... ;-) -- Avant-garde a clue - hexa Chord <sup style="color:#FFFF00;">2  20:12, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This is however a good place to say the "being open to recall" basically opens the door for this type of nonsense. Chillum  20:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Except it's not really nonsense. User wants an admin recalled for alleged abuse, fine. User alleges abuse, now needs five admins to certify. Five admins don't certify, no recall, issue ends in 48 hours. No big deal, no drama, why worry? Community-instigated admin recall is a very good thing. We have the ability to grant someone the support for the tools, therefore the community must have a robust and community-driven process for having those tools removed. RFA is community based; you don't have to go to arbcom to get the bit. // roux <span style="border:1px solid #614051;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;">  20:11, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not think MBisanz should be recalled. While I do not always agree with him, he is usually fair and reasonable to deal with.  Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 20:08, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No admin should be recalled over the deletion of a single article, particularly when the deletion was appropriate. MBisanz has always been a model administrator, and that hasn't changed here. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 20:27, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Paulista01
This user is edit-warring and removing sourced informations from article Portuguese Brazilian. He was already warned and is now using sockpupet IP number to keep edit-warring. He already broke the 3RRR. Opinoso (talk) 21:01, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Opinoso, normally we'd deal with 3RR concerns at WP:3RRN, but for simplicity's sake I'll deal with it here. This revert of yours doesn't look like it's reverting vandalism; adding a dubious tag is certainly normal practice on Wikipedia. But I do see that Paulista has been edit warring. As he is a new user I'll assume good faith of him and leave him a message informing him of his actions. If you require any additional assistance, please feel free to message me personally, friend. <font color="black" face="tahoma">Scarian Call me Pat!  21:08, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I just block him and his IP for avoiding 3RR. It certainly looked like an intentional log out. Mfield (talk) 21:14, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh what the fuck? <font color="black" face="tahoma">Scarian Call me Pat!  21:18, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, shouldn't have sworn. Anyway, Mfield, would you consider lifting the block? I left the guy a huge paragraph advising him on what not to do. The guy is clearly new and we shouldn't be biting their heads off with a block at every sign of trouble. <font color="black" face="tahoma">Scarian Call me Pat!  21:20, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Noting your message (that you were obviously typing at the same time as I was blocking, if it had already been there I would not have done it), I unblocked his username and left his IP blocked. I agree on not not biting and hopefully he will have learnt not to log out next time to get around a warning. Mfield (talk) 21:30, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much, Mfield. I really appreciate it. :-) <font color="black" face="tahoma">Scarian Call me Pat!  21:48, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * He's not assuming good faith, since the informations he is removing are sourced, moreover, with several reliable sources. Since he is edit-warring with different users, he was warned but keeps removing the informations, he should be blocked. Opinoso (talk) 22:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Rangeblock notice
Due to the ongoing disruption caused a the number of IP socks likely belonging to indef blocked user, I have placed a 1 month rangeblock on 216.211.0.0/17. This is in addition to the 1 month rangeblock placed on 216.26.208.0/20 as previously mentioned in this ANI thread. Considering that there was no objection to the proposed rangeblock here and that Apparition11 provided some pretty conclusive evidence that the Winnipeg Folk Festival vandal and Swamilive were one and the same (see the contributions of ), I went ahead. /17 blocks are not frequently applied, but a look through the contributions across the IP ranges yielded very few recent edits and little collateral damage. Let me know if there are any concerns.  caknuck <sub style="color:black;">°  remains gainfully employed  21:38, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Nec532x
I posted a WQA here:, and was advised that admins rarely visit that area. I think the behavior exhibited by Nec532x on my talkpage warrants admin action. He is impersonating an actual Navy SEAL and attempting to vouch for someone who is not. He has attempted to add this person to the List of Navy SEALs and because I have removed him I am now being attacked. Atlantabravz (talk) 21:48, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I have blocked for 1 week. Personal attacks of that intensity warrant immediate action and some time to cool down.  caknuck  <sub style="color:black;">°  remains gainfully employed  22:08, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Comments erased at Talk:Second Amendment to the United States Constitution
I've had a comment erased three times by two different users at this page who said it wasn't aimed at improving the article. My comment was in relation to another user who requested a source that the Second Amendment was considered a civil right. Although I considered the request somewhat trollish I was happy to oblige. The New York Times had that very day referred to the NRA as the country's first "civil rights" group. The topic of discussion is relevant to the article because whether we call the right to bear arms protected by the Second Amendment a "civil right" is relevant to the article. My comment was removed, but the request for sources and the rest of the discussion was left in place. I have another concern which is that the topic is controversial and POV could be inserted by manipulation of the talk page. Otherwise it's a small issue. I can see why the other editors didn't think I was serious in my edit. But I was. --Cdogsimmons (talk) 15:54, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * give them a talking to about being overzelous (my npov: it does have something to do with it) <font style="color:# 787878;background:# 41653D;"> rdunn <font style="color:# 41653D;">PLIB 16:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I ditto the complaint about long term problems of editor incivility harming the encyclopedia at that article. A neutral referee, if one could exist, might help.   SaltyBoatr (talk) 17:48, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Hence the term "Bill of Rights", ja? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 19:02, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * However, the term "civil rights" as it's used really has to do with denial of equal protection under the law, which is more about the 14th, 15th amendments. The Bill of Rights probably has more to do with what we now call "civil liberties". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:36, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The comment in question was not in regards to words published in an article in the NYT. Rather, it was a statement about a crossword puzzle clue for a 3 letter word that Cdogsimmons felt by the clue must be "NRA".  The answer to the puzzle had not yet been published.  The editors in question (I wasn't one of them) felt that a comment about one editor's opinion on what the word might be on this clue was non-relevant to the article, or was, at most, Original Research, being that the answers to the crossword puzzle hadn't yet been posted. The whole edit war on this went back and forth, with Cdogsimmons edit warring with a couple of editors who felt that his comment had no content relevant to improving the article in question, but, rather, was likely simply a soapbox statement that didn't belong on the talk page.  This hardly seems to need a neutral referee to judge whether or not a talk page should be a soapbox for espousing one's opinion of what a 3 letter word might be in that day's NYT's crossword puzzle to push a POV.  Much ado about nothing.  Yaf (talk) 21:35, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And what was the actual answer to the clue? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 22:39, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Ongoing user talk page deletions
(and now the bot is actually stopped. – xeno  ( talk ) 20:06, 6 March 2009 (UTC)) User:MZMcBride has been deleting old talkpages of IP users for quite some time now, and the process is at this very moment still ongoing. Some editors have however had their problems with these deletions. Most of these talkpages are indeed utterly useless after some time, however, for some ongoing, coordinated vandalism cases, these pages are very useful.

I have given MZMcBride yesterday such an example, where 2 talkpages were deleted (the only 2 in a range of 15 IP talkpages). Both were deleted (and I have not seen from MZMcBride's answer that he located which two were the two users that were warned). One of them would not have been deleted under the current settings (scanning the talkpage for spam/promote/promotion), one still would. Deletion of these two talkpages is a loss of, for us, important information (making these old spam cases completely dependent on admin intervention).

This morning I have been spending on working out some other cases. One of them is coming to completion, here User:Beetstra/DeletedTalkPages. The spamming is current, the pages are not up for deletion (yet). The spam case is cross-wiki, about 15 IPs have been used here for the spamming. Some have added links, some only promotion. 4 have been warned here by various users, but only one of these three contains the word 'spam' in the text (i.e. a normal spam warning, three others were either custom warnings, or vandalism warnings). It is therefore my conclusion that the current run, besides doing quite some 'good', will still remove also valuable information. I have therefor asked MZMcBride to stop immediately. My question was at 14:05 (updated at 14:07). My clock now reads 14:24, and the deletion is ongoing. I think the bot is running unsupervised, and suggest to block the editor for a couple of hours, and will do so if the editor does not stop after the nudge that this has been reported here.

I am not around too much in the coming days, not sure if I can follow up on this soon. I grant any other admin the full right to undo my block if needed. Thanks. --Dirk Beetstra T C 14:26, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This should probably be raised at the ongoing arbitration case, perhaps as a temporary injunction. – xeno  ( talk ) 14:36, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Account blocked. Mango juice talk 14:36, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Err, to elaborate on Mangojuice's comment there, he was blocked by the same for 24 hours, as he did not seem to be responding and was therefore assumed to be letting the script run while AFK. &mdash; Anonymous Dissident  Talk 14:46, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I saw the arbitration case. I am not sure if this is directly related, and this part of the WP:CSD policy is still actively discussed.  Part of the discussion on WP:OLDIP is still not come to conclusion, though CSD#U4 is part of policy.  Deletions are in principle in line with the current policy, but in this way still too prone to mistakes.  --Dirk Beetstra T  C 14:45, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware that U4 had made it through; as far as I can see, it hasn't? – xeno  ( talk ) 14:48, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I did not notice that, this should have stopped earlier today: diff. --Dirk Beetstra T  C 14:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * ah, k. – xeno  ( talk ) 14:57, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * FWIW, this would probably fall under the arb case scope, which is fairly wide. – xeno  ( talk ) 15:01, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it, at least in part, concerns his unmonitored usage of bot scripts, so yes, I think this falls under the branch. &mdash; Anonymous Dissident  Talk 15:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed, FWIW. –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  15:52, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Surprisingly, no one had filed a proposal for temporary injunction. I have done so. Requests_for_arbitration/MZMcBride/Workshop. Durova Charge! 15:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The Committee is voting to support a lesser injunction. Looks like this thread can be closed.  Durova Charge! 17:27, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * MZMcBride is requesting unblock. Durova Charge! 17:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And has been unblocked. Ready to mark this resolved now?  Durova Charge! 17:42, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

MZMcBride was unblocked, but the deletion script was never stopped, so as of this moment it is still going. Dragons flight (talk) 18:22, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I have re-blocked MZMcBride, although it was promised that the script would stop, it was still active. I have to leave, please feel free to unblock MZMcBride when the script has stopped.  Thanks.  (I have also un-resolved this thread).  --Dirk Beetstra T  C 18:29, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

''Moved discussion to User talk:Beetstra. --MZMcBride (talk) 02:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)''

Posting of CD Keys in Windows XP
Not sure if Wikipedia cares or if this is the right place (sorry if it isn't), but I wanted to point out edits:
 * Number 1
 * Number 2

by

Those are the user's only edits. While I'm not sure whether the CD key actually works, I don't think Wikipedia should aid in piracy.

I'm not sure what to do about it other than revert (maybe the revisions can be blocked from being viewed?), so I just wanted to let an admin know.

--Zabadab (Talk) @ 14:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Revert as vandalism, warn, if he continues doing, report to AI/V for blocking. Wikipedia does not aid in piracy and has low tolerance for that kinda stuff. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 14:57, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Pretty sure that that's a well-known and blacklisted license key. Not saying that it isn't vandalism of course, but there shouldn't be a need for oversighting and all that. Tarc (talk) 14:58, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Block review requested - Nextheisman


I have indefinitely blocked for repeated plagiarism and request a review of that block and the term. My block message may be viewed at User_talk:Nextheisman. On January 10, I deleted around 15 or so articles, which had all been copied from other sources. At that time, I warned the user that would be blocked if there were any further infractions. Subsequent to that time, has submitted at least three articles (now deleted, though a new unrelated version of one of them has been created by another user) that were copyright violations - Bear Pascoe, Troy Nolan, and Larry English. (The source of each is listed in the block message) None of them were exact copy/pastes of the source texts, but rather, select sentences were copied. (Pick any word from the middle of a sentence in his articles, search the source, and it's word for word the same, except for changing "he" to the person's name, changing punctuation, or something similar.) I submit this block for review. --B (talk) 19:38, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't actually verified anything you said, but assuming it's true, I endorse the block. We can't have this type of unrepentant behaviour, corrupting the 'pedia with copyvio. – xeno  ( talk ) 20:20, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Endorse block. KillerChihuahua?!? 20:35, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Endorse. <font face="Trebuchet MS">&mdash; <font color="#5A3696">neuro <font color="#5A3696">(talk) 01:23, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Anon Vandal
Out of the 9 edits done by User:96.252.15.37, each of them have been done to vandalize a page.Beast from da East (talk) 21:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * IP warned. If it continues, warn and take to AIV as needed.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  21:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Edit warring over redirect
Could another admin look over Dan Schlund and Talk:Dan Schlund and please help sort out the mess. There appears to be some sort of edit war over whether or not to redirect the article to Jet pack or not. There does not appear to be any consensus one way or another, but both sides appear to be just reverting each other back and forth. I see no evidence of a redirect discussion which determined a consensus to change the status quo, however there was a recent AFD discussion closed as no consensus. It appears the article was already protected once to stop the edit war, but as soon as the protection was lifted, one of the parties immediately resumed. What do we need to do about this? --Jayron32. talk . contribs 02:33, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I can reprotect it if people really think that is necessary, but protection will have to expire at some point. It looks like there is discussion (and the most recent revert doesn't seem all that recent, unless my clock is off) and he issue may simmer down by itself.  Though the two participants in the edit war could stand to be a lot nicer to each other. Protonk (talk) 03:00, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * At this point, I think that protection is not the issue. We need to perhaps discuss the behavior of the editors involved in the dispute.  It does not appear that any attempt was made to resolve this dispute on the talk page, and those involved seem to be undergoing a pattern of "leave a nasty comment, then revert to my version".  Just want to see what others think about this... --Jayron32. talk . contribs  03:14, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Suggest a polite but firm warning about edit warring, and then someone monitors.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:17, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That's probably a reasonable assessment. I'll also note that the comments on the talk page (while present) have been less than encouraging.  My main comment was related to the timing.  Unless either or both of the editors went to bed, they seem to have not persisted in the edir warring.  No comment on which version should be 'preferred', but the reverting doesn't seem to be ongoing.  There may be (As the editors involved assert) some longstanding problem between those two apart from this content dispute. Protonk (talk) 03:44, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The page has been protected a second time: by Xymmax indefinately. That should at least force the parties to talk, rather than merely to sit around and wait for protection to lapse, as appeared happened the last time it was protected.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  18:22, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Assuming that someone is around to review the protection, this seems like a good application of IAR. Protonk (talk) 19:06, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I am watching the article, and it looks like atleast you and Xymmax are as well. I would guess, between the three of us, we can have the good judgement to observe when reasonable consensus has been reached.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  19:12, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Indef protection is a bad idea, especially as it doesn't force discussion, as the two editors refusing to discuss the topic were the ones who wanted it the way it is now. I'm sure they'll be fine with it being locked in their preferred version and not having to come up with any reliable sources, prove notability, etc. I don't recall indef protection being at all standard procedure. DreamGuy (talk) 20:09, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * On top of the indef protection, I should also point out that a couple of admins have taken it upon themselves to repeatedly remove a comment on the talk page that they seem to have a problem with, just because it points out the fact that the supposed "Keep" vote on the first AFD actually had more delete votes than keep votes and is at best a "no consensus", not a "keep". For some reason my pointing this out has caused Protonk to threaten a block. The admin enforcement here seems more than a little draconian. They claim they want discussion before they'll ever unlock the article but are removing discussion and making threats that impede discussion. DreamGuy (talk) 20:23, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Indef protection prevents those intending to edit war over the redirect from just waiting things out. It doesn't mean "infinite".  That article shouldn't stay in a protected state for long, but if consensus can't be found, it will.  As for the message on the talk page, I'll be perfectly clear.  The editorial about the keep close of an almost 2 year old AfD doesn't belong on the top of a talk page.  If you like, you may contact the original closer to tell them that you disagree with their close.  You may start a discussion on the talk page (in a section) as to why you feel that close was inappropriate.  You may take either or both of the closes to DRV.  But you may not use the top of a talk page to voice your opinion about the close.  Since I won't protect the talk page to prevent you from doing so, my options are limited.  I may topic ban you from the page, but I don't want to do that.  So I'll be clear.  If you (or anyone else) persists in reinstating that message, I will block the offending editors for a sufficient period of time to prevent disruption to that page.  Period.  You are welcome to argue that such a position is draconian. Protonk (talk) 22:20, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I've blocked DreamGuy for continuing to insert commentary at the top of the talk page for that article. Review is always welcome and appreciated. Protonk (talk) 23:36, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * He's requested an unblock. Protonk (talk) 00:52, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * And it's been soundly denied. Honestly, that's ridiculous. There are much better things to be doing here than arguing over something that a) happened two years ago and b) has been overridden since then anyway. Edit warring and attacking others over it is simply nonsensical. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 03:53, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Malleus Fatuorum's lack of civility
User:Malleus Fatuorum is making personal attacks on others at User talk:MBisanz/Recall, including, but not limited to: ''Has the perception that admins are "a higher power, out of reach of common mortals" somehow dissipated while I wasn't looking then? 'Cos I can still see it from here, You can if you want to make yourself a laughing stock., Oh dear. I'll just leave you children to your fun then. Perhaps a few adults will pop in later''. When I pointed out WP:NPA to him on his Talk page, his reply to me was: ''Do me a favour. Do you really think you're the first to wave that big stick at me? I'll tell you what I tell everyone who waves it; stick it up your arse.'', at which Ottava Rima chimed in with more personal attacks on me. Malleus Fatuorum then continued with ''I've said it before and I'll say it again. I've been dragged through WQA a couple of times that I can remember, but I'd never bother to do it to anyone else. It's just a pathetic waste of time; "Mummy, Mummy, Malleus was rude to me." Live with it bitch.'', As far as I am aware, I have had zero dealings with either one of these editors. Am I wrong in thinking that Malleus Fatuorum's comments are inappropriate? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 23:59, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Just for convenience: User talk:Malleus Fatuorum. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 00:03, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)


 * No, you aren't. A lot of people think the same way. Some are above and beyond the civility policy here. I suggest you ignore him if he attacks you or makes rude comments about you.  Majorly  talk  00:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Malleus has been blocked twice in the past for incivility. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 00:06, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Please add some diffs to that (so we aren't searching through the history to review them). My experiences with MF match what you are describing. Have you informed him of this thread? Protonk (talk) 00:07, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec)The link provided by Equazcion shows everything Malleus has been saying, as well as his notification of this thread. Honestly, how long are we going to put up with that ridiculous behaviour? // roux <span style="border:1px solid #00009C;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;">  00:11, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I would take action in this case, but I just finished disagreeing with him, and being told that I have his pity. I will leave it to another to decide. An uninvolved admin will give less recourse for the user to blame others. Chillum  00:07, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * @Who then was a gentleman?: Could you please provide diff-links for the quotations above? Thank you. — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 00:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * ,, . Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 00:15, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec) Based on my dealings with this user at the recall page, I've found him difficult but not uncivil. That is, until I read his comments at his talk page, which are plain unacceptable. User has been informed of this thread. See this discussion on his talk page for that, and most of the comments referenced by the OP. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 00:09, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)


 * It looks to me to be rude, but not a personal attack. Suggest referring this matter to the Wikiquette board.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:10, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagree. If diff-links are provided for the above personal attacks I am going to block straight away. — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 00:14, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Proposal - 12 hour block for Who then was a gentleman?. The block is for disturbing Wikipedia. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:12, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ottava, please consider stepping out of this dispute. Protonk (talk) 00:14, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I was accused of making personal attacks by this user. A glance at the page would show that I never made any attacks, personal or not. Thus, this user is dragging in me into this for no reason. I have better things to do. That means that this user is disrupting the encyclopedia. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Awesome, my first accusation of sockpuppetting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Who then was a gentleman? (talk • contribs) 00:16, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I would note that I already struck it as your two sig lines ran together so it looked like he posted the above. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If someone has that much time to really be bothered then chances are they aren't working on the encyclopedia and are probably not contributing. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 00:24, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Here is a nice diff: "I thank you for your advice, but I will contribute where and when I choose, not at the whim of prebusecent children/The wikipedia definition of "personal attack" appears to be an observation with which a bunch of hormonal teenagers don't agree."(in response to being asked not to insult people)... I think this guy needs another NPA block, longer than 12 hours. Chillum  00:14, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * @Chillum: As I wrote above, if diff-links are provided, especially for "stick it up your arse", "laughing stock" and "Live with it bitch" I am going to block straight away. — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 00:17, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Stick it up your arse, live with it bitch. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 00:17, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)
 * As a non-admin who stumbled across the recall page page, I really cannot see how blocking Malleus will be productive. This recall issue is minor and will have blown over in 24 hours. I can only see blocking as prolonging the issue. Suicidalhamster (talk) 00:30, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * This editor has a long history of uncivil behaviour. Consider this as the straw that broke the camel's back. Are you suggesting we ignore his attacks on fellow editors?  Majorly  talk  00:32, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Well in my opinion the Camel should have been made of stronger stuff! Suicidalhamster (talk) 00:41, 7 March 2009 (UTC)]
 * And yes I think I am saying that some insults, snide comments and curt remarks should be ignored if this is the outcome when people get annoyed by them. I really don't think that numerous short blocks for civility, with increasing tensions at every flash point, are a suitable (or acceptable) long term solution for users such as Malleus. Suicidalhamster (talk) 00:52, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

It really is about time something was done about Malleus's rudeness. It's such a shame a productive editor like him has to resort to childish personal attacks when people happen to disagree with him on issues. This is by far not the first time he has engaged in rude behaviour. The comments on his talk page were utterly disgraceful. Something needs to be done.  Majorly  talk  00:16, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I am involved, and biased, but can we please remember blocks are preventative not punitive. Pedro : Chat  00:24, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * We all know that is not actually the case. It looks good on paper, but the reality is that many blocks are quite explicitly punitive. Nothing wrong with that, but the sooner we stop pretending otherwise, the better. // roux <span style="border:1px solid #00009C;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;">  00:29, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * A user may be blocked when necessary to protect the rights, property or safety of the Wikimedia Foundation, its users or the public. A block for protection may be necessary in response to ... persistently making personal attacks. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 00:26, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * So is every block. What is your point? This rudeness and uncivil behaviour makes the atmosphere sour, and the environment unpleasant to work in. If Malleus was not a good content editor, he would have probably been indef blocked months ago for some of the things he has said.  Majorly  talk  00:28, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Of course Pedro, in this case we are preventing people from being treated abusively. It will prevent that while the block is in effect and possibly after if the user learns from it. If the user does not learn from it then more prevention will be needed. Chillum  00:29, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * We really need to get rid of that meme. Everybody quotes that sentence, but nobody seems to ever quote the following sentence from the blocking policy, which is "Blocks sometimes are used as a deterrent, to discourage whatever behavior led to the block and encourage a productive editing environment"  Blocks should not be solely punitive, but a punitive block can sometimes be preventative.  -208.97.245.131 (talk) 00:31, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Aitias has blocked. Now it's time to wait for accusations of admin abuse, namecalling and other insulting comments.  Majorly  talk  00:34, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I feel that Malleus Fatuorum is one of the most uncivil editors I have com in contact with. As such, we should not have to put up with it. Why not get rid of the problem. Anyways, I was going to block myself and had the block window open ready to perform a indef block when I block conflicted with Aitis, either way I support a block. Tiptoety talk 00:35, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * An indef block would be ludicrous. There was no personal attack in the recall debate, but Malleus' perceived persecution means that when someone threatens him he gets defensive. The situation escalated when WTWAG interfered, ironically to defuse the situation. What purpose would an indef block serve apart from drive away a user whose contributions to articles are valued by the majority – whether or not the people he interacts with think he is being rude. He may not go about it in everyone's favourite way, but he has the best interests of wikipedia in mind when he engages in debate in the project space. In this case it looks like he was trying to ensure the recall debate was transparent and went by the book. He only escalated to "personal attacks" when out of article and project space. Does this disrupt wikipedia? Debatable. It doesn't affect policy, articles, and if users disagree they can go their separate ways. WTWAG arguably is being just as disruptive as we could all be editing articles instead of debating the toss here. Nev1 (talk) 00:47, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * FYI, Block has been overturned. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 00:39, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)


 * After the diff-links have been provided above I have just blocked User:Malleus Fatuorum for 3 days due to personal attacks and incivility. Simply put, saying "stick it up your arse" and "Live with it bitch", calling others "laughing stock[s]" or children is entirely inacceptable — Wikipedia is a collaborative project, every editor is a human. Thus, one should be treated as a such. The aim of this block is to prevent further insults in the future. — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 00:41, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I would suggest you reread the areas you have read. The only thing regarding another in the loosest way is the "child" comment. As such, your block is null. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:43, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * User:Ddstretch has reversed your block. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 00:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure in what way it would get through to him that civility is important on Wikipedia. It's so important that people can collaborate positively in a pleasant environment. This environment is turned sour when Malleus comes on the scene and starts calling those who disagree with him "children" and "hormonal teenagers". Completely and utterly disrespectful, and immature to boot.  Majorly  talk  00:42, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

(e/c x 3) I have unblocked. The reasons are: (a) the blocking admin seemed to be involved, given the exchanges on Malleus' talk page (b) the length of time seems excessive given that blocks are supposed to be preventative and no punitive, and (c) no block notice was issued even though the account was blocked some time ago. I am open to review of this unblocking. DDStretch   (talk)  00:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Endorse reblocking 3 days is not too long, this is not the first time the editor has been blocked or warned. If you want a block notice I'll be happy to leave one. BJ Talk 00:46, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thoughts: A) The unblocking admin might not be all that uninvolved himself. B) The lack of a block notice is no reason to unblock. If you see that the the blocking admin neglected to leave one, then leave one yourself. That seems rather obvious to me. C) To those who oppose the block, I don't quite understand how you suggest we deal with editors who repeatedly refuse to be civil. What good is the policy if we have no way to enforce it? and D) If you disagree with a block you're supposed to go and speak to the blocking admin first, not unblock immediately. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 00:49, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)


 * Unblocking was a very, very poor choice, and has verged on a wheel war. The blocking admin should have been consulted and consensus should have been established here. Because I have had one negative interaction with Malleus, I will be considered "involved" and will not be taking action in fear of my block being overturned and for fear of starting a ugly wheel war. That said, I feel the block was just and should stand. Tiptoety  talk 00:50, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * @Ddstretch: Could you please provide evidence for your untruthful accusations of me having interacted with them at their talk page and being involved? I have never (literally!) interacted with them. — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 00:55, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * This is one of the reasons that situations like this get out of hand. Admins feel compelled to reverse blocks out of process and so eliminate any preventative or deterrent value for the block. This happens a great deal with 'civility' or 'NPA' blocks and causes people to treat those policies as unenforceable. Please, no one else reverse the block without going through the unblock process. Protonk (talk) 00:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I have had blocks reverted without discussion in the past year, and to no comment from this page, and so I considered it allowable. As for my comments about Aitias being involved, the entire section 17 of Malleus' talk page indicates a discussion prior to the block in which Mallues was brusque with with Aitias. Under these circumstances, I always understood that one should not then go ahead and block, but should get a different admin at least not involved in the provoking incident, to do the block.  DDStretch    (talk)  01:00, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see Aitias's name in that section at all myself... <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 01:03, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)


 * Ddstretch, aren't you involved as a close co-editor of Malleus, on Greater Manchester articles?  Majorly  talk  01:04, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * @Ddstretch: "I have had blocks reverted without discussion in the past year, and to no comment from this page, and so I considered it allowable." Would you mind reading WP:WHEEL then? Also, could you provide evidence (i.e. diff-links) and not just new claims? Could you point us to the comments about me there please? Thanks. — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 01:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec x ∞) Aitias is nowhere on Malleus' talkpage (except for the block notification), nor did he interact with Malleus on the Mbisanz/recall page. So.. how again is Aitias too involved? // roux <span style="border:1px solid #465945;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;">  01:10, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If a block is the result of an unambiguous error and not a judgment call (for example, if the blocking administrator obviously misspelled a username), then it is not necessary to discuss prior to unblocking. That's the policy. Unless you thought it was a mistake or an obvious and flagrant error, you shouldn't have unblocked. Protonk (talk) 01:07, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec x 6) For what it is worth, reblocked.  Tiptoety  talk 01:06, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

What is a wheel war, folks? Last time I checked, it was the reinstatement of a reverted action. What Coren did was exactly that, as he reblocked Malleus. Was this in an official capacity as an arbcom member? Is this a statement by arbcom? Out of people, an arb is the worst admin to reblock. On the subject of civility blocks (especially on established editors), they don't really seem to work. This thread is the result of a civility block of an established content editor; a firm warning would be a better alternative instead of a long block. Also, on the topic of the inital blocking admin: Aitias seems to be only interested in policing, while Malleus is in the middle of GA review of an article, so three days is excessive for a spout of extreme incivility from a long-term editor.  Maxim (talk)  01:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Coren's block was the start of a wheelwar, but not as an arbcom member. Civility blocks don't work on Giano because he has a lot of friends who will unblock him, and he does a lot of good work on articles. However article work does not make an excuse for ignoring important policies, and not caring. Do you really think Malleus would have cared about a warning? I certainly don't. So what if he writes articles? He's making the atmosphere unpleasant for others with his behaviour, and it's unacceptable. He doesn't need to act like this, it's entirely his own doing. Other content editors (eg SandyGeorgia, Ealdgyth, Moni3 etc) aren't rude and uncivil to people with whom they disagree. Why is Malleus the exception, and why should he be allowed to get away with this?  Majorly  talk  01:15, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * @Maxim: No, Coren was not wheel warring by definition. He was undoing an abusive unblock — as the unblocking admin has just admitted admitted at their talk page the unblock was clearly abusive. Coren's action was perfectly fine. — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 01:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

An Apology: I have looked at the section in which I thoight I had read an interaction between Malleus and Aitias prior to the block, and I now see I was completely mistaken. I apologise for that wrong aspect of my unblocking reason. However, I do consider that the block length was too long, and there was too great a time-period between the actual blocking and the rationale being posted. In cases like this, I would prepare a rationale before issuing the block so that the notice can be posted almost immediately, and there was adequate time to do this as the discussion was ongoing and had been after the intention to block by Aitias had been given. However, these later points do not detract from the apology I am making now. DDStretch   (talk)  01:14, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * FYI - the rationale was in the block log, which the blocked user sees when they are blocked. A talk page note is almost more for everybody else than the blocked user.  It's certainly not grounds to overturn a block.  And obviously, if a block is too long, the proper course it to shorten it, not to remove it altogether. -Chunky Rice (talk) 01:19, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * That was both graceful and classy, Ddstretch. // roux <span style="border:1px solid #355E3B;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;">  02:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

A brief statement
When I have undone the unblock by DDStretch, I have done so as an administrator that happens to be an Arbitrator, but not in the name of the Committee. I have specifically not reblocked because I endorsed (or opposed) the original block in any way whatsoever, but because the unblock was entirely out of process (given that no discussion had taken place with the blocking admin) and such unblocks have historically degenerated into wheel warring.

I state that I did this as an Arbitrator not because it confers any additional authority to my action, but because it might make the participants swiftly realize the seriousness of further escalation. I dislike brandishing the desysop-stick around, but if a swift intervention could prevent the incident from reaching that point then it was successful.

While not all of my colleagues may agree with my making this act in my capacity as an Arbitrator, I strongly feel that avoiding a dramatic wheel war is a worthy end in itself, and entirely compatible with the responsibility the community has placed in me to help solve disputes for the good of the encyclopedia and its community. I am open to critique for this gesture (and, indeed, any of my acts); and will heed the community's desire in the matter. &mdash; Coren (talk) 01:28, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The original block was out of process. Aitias stated that he blocked because of: "After the diff-links have been provided above I have just blocked User:Malleus Fatuorum for 3 days due to personal attacks and incivility. Simply put, saying "stick it up your arse" and "Live with it bitch", calling others "laughing stock[s]" or children is entirely inacceptable".
 * I pointed out that the second comment, "live with it bitch", was directed to me and had nothing to do with any attacks. This gross misreading of Malleus's comments shows that Aitias had no just cause to block. This belonged at Wikiquette as many others, including admin, have stated. The user above accused me of also attacking them, and I have done no such thing. To block with such a poor reading of the situation shows a problem that should be overturned. I am prepared to go to ArbCom for this, especially over Coren's blatant Wheel violation. As an ArbCom official, you really should have known better than to do this. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:33, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * @Ottava Rima: Even if one of those was directed to you the others do still stand and do perfectly warrant the block. — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 01:38, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Really? If that equals a three day block why do we even have Wikiquette? This is not "gross" incivility. This is not major rudeness. This is nothing. You misread the whole thing and now you are seemingly forced in defending your action for sparking a whole lot of mess. Coren broke WHEEL. You acted in a way that was too severe. I think you owe Malleus an apology, even if its via mail to be private. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I don't. Such a tone is simply inacceptable: WP:CIVIL. — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 01:48, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Accusing someone of violating civil for stating that you should apologize is violating civil under the making false claims. I suggest you reread that page. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:10, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I was not referring to your tone, but to User:Malleus Fatuorum's. — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 04:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Seconded (Coren's statement). &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 01:33, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I think everyone who has taken block/unblock action has been much to quick to interrupt discussion and try to get things the way they want, and that includes the arbitrator. What good is discussion if someone breaks away and says "Blip this.  I'm going to block/unblock and get my facts on the ground."  It makes a joke of discussion and consensus.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:36, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I completely endorse Coren's actions. Tiptoety  talk 01:38, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Endorsing Coren's actions, seem warranted and acceptable. <font face="Trebuchet MS">&mdash; <font color="#5A3696">neuro <font color="#5A3696">(talk) 01:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * As I wrote at Coren's talk page already, I endorse Coren's actions as well. — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 01:41, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Aitias, I love you like a brother, but I think you'd post positive comments at the Devil's talk page if He endorsed a block you'd dealt out.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:43, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, yes, I for one really do love you more than anyone else as well, Wehwalt. Your great judgement (at the very least regarding blocks) has become quite apparent recently, one may think. Face-smile.svg — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 01:53, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What the heck is that supposed to mean? <font face="Trebuchet MS">&mdash; <font color="#5A3696">neuro <font color="#5A3696">(talk) 02:00, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think Wehwalt is well aware how this was meant, neuro. :) — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 02:03, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Failure to predict the future isn't a mistake, dude. Especially as I believe had we gone about it my way, that wouldn't have happened.  By the way, you should probably leave notes of thanks to Lucifer, OldNick, and Justcallmesatan, all of whom supported that block.  :) --Wehwalt (talk) 02:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not called a "failure to predict the future", but good judgement. However, don't worry, I can understand that it's hard to admit such an extreme lapse of judgement. :) — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 02:37, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you understand that well, Aitias. I trust that's something you're working on?  After all, there must be quite a backlog.  :) --Wehwalt (talk) 02:43, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, well, never could have imagined one with such a lack of self-reflection/self awareness, my friend. :) — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 02:47, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ditto yo, amigo mio, except I was thinking in terms of self-control! This concludes our demonstration of how to be perfectly civil and yet show what one thinks!  Thank you, Aitais for playing straight man and feeding me so many great lines! ;)--Wehwalt (talk) 02:53, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, you're right. Not even spelling my user name correctly is quite uncivil. — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 03:02, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Ah, my appendages, letting me down again. You should talk to one of them, Aitias. Seriously, though, we both know we disagree on blocking policy, so let's leave it at that.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, okay. However, my initial message (from 01:53) was meant entirely serious. However, regretfully, you were the one to turn it into ridicule instead of simply trying to benefit(/learn) from it. — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 03:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I always take you seriously, Aitias. I simply sometimes disagree with you.  Since your comment was rather pointed, I felt the best way to deal with it was to deflect it, and humor (not ridicule) is a perfectly appropriate means of doing so.  But in any event, I will sleep on what you have said, because it is about time I did so.  Long day tomorrow.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:26, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Endorse Coren's actions in this matter, and endorse the original block and length. I was tempted to block, and came close to blocking for 48 hours, but I had guests come over. What a pity. If an editor cannot work well with others, and resorts to gross personal attacks and incivility, then a block is in order. <font color="#CC0000">seicer &#x007C; <font color="#669900">talk  &#x007C; <font color="#669900">contribs  02:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Endorse original block. Being a "vested" contributor does not abrogate WP:NPA.  --Kralizec! (talk) 03:01, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion
There is a lot of discussion about what a good editor Malleus is. Would anyone be open to limiting him to only editing in article space for a specific period of time? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 00:54, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No. Namespace bans have a terrible record and create second class citizens.  Either someone is mature and collegial enough to be on wikipedia, or they aren't. Protonk (talk) 00:57, 7 March 2009 (rUTC)
 * Eh. You can be just as uncivil on an article talk page as you can elsewhere. Unless you're suggesting he be restricted from talk pages altogether, but that doesn't seem feasible. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 00:59, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)


 * I have never personally seen him be uncivil when working on articles, not even close (perhaps because that's something he enjoys). It's when he gets involved in wikipolitics he starts to slip.  Majorly  talk  01:00, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Disenfranchise Malleus? When someone is deprived of their vote, their say in proceedings, they are unlikely to be motived to contribute. Some people choose not to participate in the non-article side of wikipedia, Malleus is not one of those people. Nev1 (talk) 01:03, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * In theory it is better than him ending up indef blocked. BJ Talk 01:10, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * In theory, you're obviously right. In practice it would have the same effect. Nev1 (talk) 01:17, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment from someone uninvolved in this dispute. This block seems to me to be punitive, rather than preventative. I am not at all sure what originally made Malleus so hostile towards administrators. My interactions with him over 18 months have been overwhelmingly positive, as an excellent contributor, reviewer & copy editor. I find it sad that an editor I would rate as among the more productive on this project appears to have been driven to distraction by our bureaucracy. Espresso Addict (talk) 01:13, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah that sure is a shame. It was society's fault, no doubt. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 01:16, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree. He is so good at what he enjoys. As I've said, it is such a shame he has ended up like this.  Majorly  talk  01:17, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Too broad. <font face="Trebuchet MS">&mdash; <font color="#5A3696">neuro <font color="#5A3696">(talk) 01:15, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm just wondering how the newbie with Wiki experience less than one month old knows this procedure? --Caspian blue 01:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Reading about it, I would imagine. Can't seem to put my finger on what you might be insinuating.  Please spell out what accusations you intent to level.  Thanks. Protonk (talk) 01:24, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I just wondered since the user said about sockpuppetry accusation so please put away your "accusation" pointing at me. Thanks.--Caspian blue 01:30, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No. Wondering aloud about whether or not a user is a sock without presenting claims or evidence is not helpful.  either step up and accuse the user or wonder quietly please. Protonk (talk) 01:41, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed (with Protonk). — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 01:43, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * (ecx2)Protonk, you are mistaken. I have not accused him of being a sockpuppet, but he is the one who brought it up loudly. However I must admit that this broad suggestion to the long-term constructive editor (yeah having some civility issue though) is disturbing.--Caspian blue 01:51, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This diff on its own warrants a block. Comments such as that are not in line with our best practices or our esprit de corps. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 01:30, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, I don't agree. It's his talk page and fair, if strong response.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:34, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * No editors owns their talk page. Sometimes no response is the best response, especially if the other option is patently inappropriate. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 01:42, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I wasn't aware that one's own user talk page carried a different standard for civility than anywhere else... <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 01:43, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)


 * I would certainly look at a response with an inappropriate word on his own talk page differently than one at an article talk page.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:46, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If it were just an inappropriate word, then maybe. But the word itself isn't the issue. Telling someone to go stick it up their ass isn't an appropriate response, no matter where you say it, and replacing the word with "behind", for example, wouldn't fix the problem. If that's not uncivil then what the hell is? <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 01:49, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that if Malleus had said something like "stick it where the sun never shines", we wouldn't be discussing this.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:52, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Being rude is enough to be chastised by Wikiquette. It is simply not enough to blocked. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:55, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * @Wehwalt: Exactly. It's not what you say but the way you say it. — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 01:58, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree, as in either form the statement is an insult. Telling someone to go stick anything anywhere is just not respectful. Besides which, even if the specific language is the reason we've ended up here, the fact that it was used on his own talk page makes no difference in my mind. Whatever your definition of civility, it applies equally in all forums of Wikipedia. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 01:58, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)
 * To complete the lovefest, I agree with Aitias. You can say pretty insulting things in very polite language which may not even qualify as rudeness.  Done all the time.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:02, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. This user failed to do that though, which is why he got blocked. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 02:04, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, I agree as well. Some are very good at that, Wehwalt. :) — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 02:07, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, we are giving everyone a lesson in that!--Wehwalt (talk) 02:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * @Ottava: I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Wikiquette is just the first suggested step to dealing with incivility. You can certainly be blocked, should an attempt at open discussion with third parties prove fruitless. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 02:03, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with the necessity or appropriateness of any block at this time. Edison (talk) 02:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Yet another example of poor admin practice, and hardly compliant with the policy that blocking be a last resort and to avoid damage to the project. The main job of admins is to manage anger and fear. Here, we have a case where an experience, long-time editor has become angry. It has spiralled. This is not atypical. Admins need to avoid getting a little moralistic power-surge from blocking such editors (who are in short supply—look at the ongoing stats from The Signpost two months ago). The only thing that really works well is the R word: rapport. I see no evidence of this here, in an attempt to resolve the situation without causing the kind of harm that leads to catastrophe. Rapport requires skill and application; it is slow; but it is the only solution. What has been done is, frankly, LAZY.  Tony   (talk)  02:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Where is the rapport in telling another editor to "stick it up his arse"? &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 02:31, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That was merely a quaint attempt at foreplay. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:36, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

A bit slow in coming to this because I was working on a featured content drive: Currier and Ives prints of the candidates for the United States Presidential election of 1864. The Democrats are finished now, so a few words before getting too deeply into Lincoln's and Johnson's portraits. If I ever produce the sort of diffs that inspired this discussion, please block me for three days and be done with it. Malleus Fatuorum is a fine contributor and, so far as I can recall, we've never been in conflict. But this situation is a waste of everyone's time. Wikipedia operates on a social contract of policies in which we all have a voice, and no one has a license to be rude. Durova Charge! 02:26, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * That was very, very well put, Durova. — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 02:29, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Spoken by one with no stake in the outcome!--Wehwalt (talk) 02:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually I was especially referring to "Wikipedia operates on a social contract of policies in which we all have a voice, and no one has a license to be rude." Some of us may wish to think about that (seriously meant, just for once). — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 03:00, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Introspection is good for the soul. Well said Aitias!--Wehwalt (talk) 03:04, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I said this one sentence was meant serious. Really. It's worth thinking about it. — <span style="border:1px solid #20406F;padding:1px 3px;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;"> Aitias  // discussion 03:07, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

This is a tempest in a teapot if I ever saw one. Is MF rude or uncivil to article contributors in the main talkspace? I haven't seen evidence of that. Is MF rude and blunt in the project space? Yeah - so what? He makes his point and moves on. He doesn't go over the top. What is the true issue here, that Malleus is uncivil (by whatever nebulous definition being assigned), or that Malleus takes contrary positions that just bug other project-editors? Is the encyclopedia itself being damaged, or are feelings being hurt on the less-public pages? "Stick it up your arse" is just another way of saying "come at me when I've actually done some damage". Let's just drink the tea... Franamax (talk) 05:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm continually amazed by the small group of editors who come out to actually defend these kinds of actions. Anyway, for me it's the incivility, not the position, that is the issue here. I don't even remember what the issue was regarding. I simply find it unpleasant and contrary to the goal of peaceful collaboration when people act this way, regardless of which position they're advocating. You may personally have a thicker than usual skin and feel unaffected by such occurrences, but maybe try to understand how the average person would feel, rather than demanding they suck it up and be more like you. <small style="font:bold 10px Arial;display:inline;border:#009 1px dashed;padding:1px 6px 2px 7px;white-space:nowrap"><font color="#000">Equazcion •✗/C • 05:50, 7 Mar 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not defending what was IMO a set of wrong responses. I'd love to be free to use epithets to properly describe my opinion of some 'pedians and some of their non-article-space edits. But that is just not a productive strategy. I've not yet seen where MF impedes the process of article improvement, though he may be a gadfly in project-space. Good on MF then, we can always use a few gadflies. Groupthink is a bad thing.
 * What I am defending is MF's right to speak his mind in a straightforward fashion. I don't see provocation or baiting, just blunt statements. Does that upset those of delicate sensibility? Probably. That's life. Wikipedia is not Utopia, and it's not a set of china dolls sitting on a shelf - it's life, with moderators. MF hasn't crossed any great threshold.
 * And to be clear, I do support the general approach of civil discourse. I could have entered this multi-thread with my sometimes chosen approach of civil but vastly sarcastic commentary. I could never be pinned down for incivility, but I could be quite subtly nasty at the same time. There are many ways to be un-encyclopedic, civil just happens to be a term that lots of people think they can define. Franamax (talk) 06:11, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I was editing during the close, guess I have the last word :) Franamax (talk) 06:13, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Philosophical interlude
Without being too long-winded about it - if a user is making borderline-incivil remarks, such as the remarks MF made on the recall page, chances are that said user is frustated about something (let's call this "thing X"). While this may prove shocking to some, the fact of the matter is that when somebody else tells this user (speaking generically) to, in essence, stop being frustated, this does utterly nothing to diffuse the emotional situation going on with said user. I know the pithy, thoughtless response is "well, that user shouldn't be emotional", but let's be realistic here. Imagine going to a rather fancy restaurant and being told your paid reservation was lost. That's a frustating experience. You are then told that you will be unable to be seated - even more frustating - and, as the icing upon this particular cake, you are told that your deposit is non-refundable. Don't analyze that sequence of events too deeply, it isn't meant to exactly parallel what MF went through - the key similiarity is that this is, in so many words, an escalating situation. So - if, when you ask - nay, demand - to see the manager, you are instead told to "calm down" and "remain civil", are you going to calm down? Are you going to remain civil? Would you expect that sort of response in a fine restaurant, or in any other social interaction? What makes that response acceptable here? What causes us so much bewilderment when a "borderline" user, already frustated, lashes out after being sanctimoniously reminded to be polite? Badger Drink (talk) 05:51, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Parappa664
"New" user today, immediately goes to various user talk pages and starts causing trouble. What could this possibly be? Something to do with hosiery, perhaps? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 01:16, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Bet he's a Yankee fan. PhGustaf (talk) 01:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing a fan of the Gas-House Gorillas. Deor (talk) 01:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Mmmm... Could be! Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 01:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Their talk page is... interesting. The first messages appear to be warnings dating back to February 2007. However, the only edits to the page occurred in the last two days. Dammit, kids these days: if you're going to fake a history, at least fake a respectable history. Interestingly, their most recent edits have been to the sandbox, so maybe they are just new and confused? Worth keeping an eye on, anyway. Cheers, <b style="color:#000">This flag once was red</b>propagandadeeds 10:48, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * A quick look shows that they have in part copied their talk page from the bottom section of this IPs talk page. Enter CambridgeBayWeather, waits for audience applause, not a sausage 18:30, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * (Audience applauds. I'll have that sausage, thanks!) Well spotted. Still no less bizarre, though I am leaning towards the "using their talk page as a sandbox"-view. That still leaves the "using Baseball Bugs's talk page as another sandbox"-problem, but hopefully it won't recur. Cheers, <b style="color:#000">This flag once was red</b>propagandadeeds 18:35, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If it happens again, they shall incur my merciless wrath, as dispensed by the wikipedia god known as RVV. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 19:05, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And then you're going to type mean things at them until they cry. Half  Shadow  19:08, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
 * When you find something that works, you stick with it. >:) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:38, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * However, after fooling around in the sandbox for a little while yesterday that user (or at least that logon) disappeared. Maybe we should have warned him about the k-wik-sand. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * They have reappeared, and want to become an administrator. <b style="color:#000">This flag once was red</b>propagandadeeds 10:42, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That's funny. Hey, let's just make everyone an administrator. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 13:33, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If a guy with ZERO edits to any articles were to get adminship, that would certainly be a record no one could break! Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 20:20, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Here's his request for adminiship Requests for adminship/Parappa664 in case anyone wants to follow this little story. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 02:30, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, the joke's wearing a little thin, and after he's begun overtly vandalizing user pages, I've turned him in to WP:AIV. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:37, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have boldly closed the RFA per WP:NOTNOW and WP:SNOW (and notified the user, kindly I hope. Feel free to revert if I have acted out of line. // roux <span style="border:1px solid #00009C;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;">  07:01, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If WP:AIV does its job, he'll soon be indef-blocked. I'm just wondering how a registered user is supposedly on a list of IP addresses of educational institutions. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:04, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Just was; answered the other question at my talk. I figure the cat inclusion because s/he copied the entire talkpage of the IP. Just a guess. // roux <span style="border:1px solid #801818;-moz-border-radius-topright:10px;-moz-border-radius-bottomleft:10px;padding:0px 7px;font-size:30%;">  07:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Danke to all concerned. :) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

RedRose333
I dunno what to do with him. is doing tons of good stuff but also some silly things, which led to a block in July '08. He has been warned a lot in January, February and this month and I guess a new block is on its way. He's not willing to talk. Any suggestions? -- Avant-garde a clue - hexa Chord <sup style="color:#FFFF00;">2  02:59, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you be a bit more specific, please? It is also courteous to leave a message for a user letting them know that they are being discussed at AN/I, I am doing so now. <font face="Trebuchet MS">&mdash; <font color="#5A3696">neuro <font color="#5A3696">(talk) 03:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I've left a message, just above yours. ;-) He's removing a lot of stuff for which he gets warned by vandal fighters (like me) as you clearly can see on his talkpage. But he also does a lot of helpful stuff like setting up infoboxes or fixing tons of small issues. -- Avant-garde a clue - hexa Chord <sup style="color:#FFFF00;">2  03:32, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you give some diffs for the neg stuff? I see the warnings.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Just a few:   Another thing is, that he's doing ten or more edit to set up an infobox, he might just use preview, but, well...   -- Avant-garde a clue - hexa  Chord <sup style="color:#FFFF00;">2  03:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Multiple edits are not actionable. (thank god too, else I'd be blocked) <font face="Trebuchet MS">&mdash; <font color="#5A3696">neuro <font color="#5A3696">(talk) 04:16, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure, but it's a bit annoying to make one edit for each line of an infobox, right? See and on. Don't get me wrong, I don't want him to get blocked, but I'm sure he will get in trouble soon again if we don't find a way to stop the small amount of silly things he's doing. -- Avant-garde a clue - hexa  Chord <sup style="color:#FFFF00;">2  04:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Nobody is going to block over him adding information slowly. People do that all the time. <font face="Trebuchet MS">&mdash; <font color="#5A3696">neuro <font color="#5A3696">(talk) 04:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And yes, before someone points it out, I see the removals. I just am unsure that they are in bad faith. <font face="Trebuchet MS">&mdash; <font color="#5A3696">neuro <font color="#5A3696">(talk) 04:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Adding content over the course of several edits isn't a violation of any policy. In fact, it's often a good idea to save periodically, as a power outage can quickly ruin hours of work... –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  04:28, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * While it is good to work on an article section for section you don't have to make 10 or 12 edits for a simple infobox, but anyway, that's not the real problem. I don't think the removals are bad faith, but are seen as such - including me first. I changed my mind, that's why I'm here. I've made several hundred edits on WP:AIV, I know the game. -- Avant-garde a clue - hexa Chord <sup style="color:#FFFF00;">2  04:48, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You don't have to, no, but there's nothing against doing so. These seem like fairly trivial issues, IMO. –Juliancolton <sup style="color:#666660;">Tropical <sup style="color:#666660;">Cyclone  04:50, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * So I guess the answer is: Let him run into the knife that's waiting for him... -- Avant-garde a clue - hexa Chord <sup style="color:#FFFF00;">2  05:02, 7 March 2009 (UTC)