Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive552

Sock needs a block
is obviously. I've started an SPI, but Wynnon is editwarring over the inclusion of the sock tag on their userpage, and is doing the usual disineguous "Who is Scibaby?" stuff. Pls block, and a CU can clear out the drawer via the SPI. → ROUX   ₪  23:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * PW blocked indef. Tan  &#124;  39  23:19, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ta. → ROUX   ₪  23:23, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Roux on blocks of fox in socks. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 23:32, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Except "Roux" is pronounced "roo". :D weburiedoursecretsinthe garden  09:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * roo on bloo of foo in soo???--Jayron32. talk . say no to drama 12:21, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sacre bleu! Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:35, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have never been to the Soo. → ROUX   ₪  17:02, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Soo? Si. Yikes. Now I'm channeling Mel Blanc. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 23:39, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting times. Everything here rhymes. -- Pinkgirl34 16:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:V and citations
Over at Talk:Sacha_Baron_Cohen, User:J M Rice has said that the "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged" part of WP:V means that all material that doesn't fit this description doesn't generally need a reference; he has thus now twice removed all citations from an entire section of Sacha Baron Cohen. Surely all biographical information, especially on a WP:BLP, needs at least one reference, even if this material hasn't been challenged? All Hallow&#39;s (talk) 02:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a content dispute, and thus not appropriate for AN/I. Please try dispute resolution. I would suggest asking for a third opinion. → ROUX   ₪  02:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I echo the sentiment. Mediation may be necessary here, judging from the article talk page, but I can't see any administrative action being appropriate here. Law type! snype? 02:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Time for a WP:BAN
There have been a number of user and talk pages recently created which are apparently tracking some sort of game, and using Wikipedia as a free web host. Sockpuppet case is here Sockpuppet investigations/ILMORGAME/Archive. And there's an example of this foolishness is at User talk:ILMORSEASONTWO. This user (or users?) clearly have zero interest in contributing to Wikipedia and are determined to take advantage of Wikipedia, and do not respond to attempts to discuss the situation, except with the occasional profanity. I suggest that this content and those creating it be banned, and that any of these pages be deleted on sight without further attempts at discussion, as it has been made clear that they do not respond, but simply move on to a new name. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Try WP:MFD? --Rschen7754 (T C) 04:42, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not a response to the last sentence of the post above. Hell, it misses the point entirely. --Calton | Talk 04:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it would at least get the pages deleted in the meantime. --Rschen7754 (T C) 05:03, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * We went through this identical situation a few months ago. Suggest an admin has a word with everyone involved, informs them that this is not what Wikipedia is for, and deletes any and all pages related. If they continue after this, ban 'em all. → ROUX   ₪  04:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Wassermann
Please see Administrators%27 noticeboard/IncidentArchive547. An IP editor, User:172.131.130.5, has been editing identically to the edits for which User:Wassermann was brought to task in the above section. Behavioral evidence alone is obvious, although I misread the block log and thought Wassermann was still blocked, and reverted all the edits. Is a longer term user block combined with the appropriate IP anon range blocks called for or not? -- Avi (talk) 22:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Looking at Wassermann's contribs, he hasn't edited under his main account since June 25. Agree with Avi--the quacking is getting awfully loud.  Indef might not be too harsh at this point, considering his block log. Blueboy96 22:43, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This account has been a problem for a long time, and this new editing looks like the same kinds of problems as before. He was most recently blocked for a month. Either a much longer block or an indef would appear appropriate.   Will Beback    talk    23:57, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The IP's just AOL, so not much to be done there; I'd indef the guy, but I'm not particularly fond of yellow-badgers, so I'm way biased. --jpgordon:==( o ) 01:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I too agree with an indefinite block: socking, long term bad edits... let's just get it over with.  Triplestop  x3  01:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've blocked him indef. Blueboy96 13:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Apparent AfD trolling?
User:Moondyne is rapid-fire copying and pasting across multiple AfDs, including even four of these copy and pastes in even under one minute, i.e. nowhere near enough time to actually read the individual articles under discussion, the comments in the respective AfDs, and to verify whether or not sources exist (checking Google News in at least some of these cases show that they do...). Anyway, see, , , , , , , and. As I am not sure what to make of this and thus seek a neutral opinion as editors should be making serious considerations when discussing articles, especially ones being actively improved as seen at Talk:List_of_Home_and_Away_characters and as such it is discourteous to those of us actively working on these articles to treat with them in a copy and paste across even four articles in under one minute rather that checking for sources (some of these actually are sourced, incidentally) per WP:BEFORE and WP:PRESERVE. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 06:25, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Trolling? I can assure you I at least scanned them all before !voting.  I opened several Firefox tabs to save going back to the deletion sorting page which is why it my have appeared to you they weren't read.  Posting this problem here is ridiculous and an inappropriate use of the ANI noticeboard.  –Moondyne 07:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Beyond ridiculous; beggars belief even. For those who don't know, Moondyne is a long time editor and former administrator, who has never demonstrated any propensity to troll or disrupt, and has many times over earned the good faith A Nobody can't be bothered assuming. Hesperian 07:09, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It gets old when some of us have been working on articles to see these kind of rapid fire copy and pastes that demonstrate neither knowledge of the topics under discussion or effort at researching the individual articles and considering what specifically is out there for the specific articles under consideration. Editors in discussions do not just repeat the same thing tirelessly as doing so is not a discussion. A discussion considers what the participants have looked for and what specifically they have found and how it might be used in each individual case. When I see four copy and pastes done in one minute's time, it is hard for anyone to see how that adds anything to the actual efforts to see what can be done with these articles over on the wikiproject page and yes, rapid fire copy and pastes across AfDs is rarely a sign of anything constructive, but as I do not like outright accusing, I included the question mark above. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 07:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * At least the section heading is accurate. Reporting somebody at AN/I for voting to delete something that you want kept is indeed "apparent AfD trolling". Hesperian 07:14, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Verily. → ROUX   ₪  07:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I don't personally want all of those to be kept and I wouldn't bother here if it was a mere concern about some disagreeing with me. I noticed a slew of rapid fire copy and pastes across multiple discussions, including even four of these in under a minute, which from past experiences with accounts that have done that at AfDs, naturally seems suspicious, and as such asked, not asserted, if others thought something of it here rather than just declare as much to the user.  Best, --A NobodyMy talk 07:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * In other words, "I came straight here to Drama Central because I didn't want to cause unnecessary drama." Hesperian 07:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I came here because I saw something that struck me as odd (applying the exact same comment to articles for award-winning performances as to ones that truly are not all that notable) and was hoping for good faith input if it is okay to just say the same thing in rapid-fire fashion without more carefully considering these differences. My hope is that if it is a bit haphazard, a fair admin would politely advise the user to be more careful.  I am not asking for anything beyond that.  If I was, I wouldn't have a question mark in the section heading and would be far more declarative.  Ideally, the user would see that some of these can be sourced and join in our efforts to improve those we can so that we can work colloboratively together to improve our project.  Regards, --A NobodyMy talk 07:36, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You should do more than just "scan" them, but check for sources and discuss specific sources rather than simply copy and paste the same comment that does not necessarily apply uniformly to all half dozen plus articles, let alone providing no valid reason why at worst we would not at least redirect these verifiable articles as deletion is an extreme last resort. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 07:04, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * We know that you hate to see any article deleted. We get it. But get over it. It happens. Also, what Hesperian said. I certainly see no admin action needed here, and this should have been dealt with via a conversation with Moondyne. Framing a good faith vote as some sort of action against 'some of us who have been working on articles' is repellent; there is no grand conspiracy to destroy work, and this sort of thing is precisely why a) the inclusionist/deletionist identification needs to stop, and b) why groups like the ARS should be turfed as promoting divisiveness. I suggest this be closed and you be stringently warned against using AN/I to further your extreme positions. → ROUX   ₪  07:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hoaxes and libelous content should be deleted and I have nominated and argued to delete those sorts of articles. My concern here is not about wanting to delete, but about copy and pasting the exact same comment across four discussions in under a minute when it does not adequately consider the individual merits of each article.  Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 07:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh. My. God. Moondyne holds exactly the same opinion about four different articles on four different characters from the same TV show. Time for a community ban then? Hesperian 07:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why are you descending into hyperbole? I certainly did not call for a community ban.  I asked what the deal was with this rapid fire copy and pasting that did not seem to reflect careful consideration of the individual articles in question.  Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 07:31, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I certainly don't see the need to read every word of every article in that walled garden to form a view of which ones are minor characters and non-notable. –Moondyne 07:26, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I agree that some are not easy to fix, but take one for instance where the actress won an award and was nominated a second time for her performance, i.e verifiable real world information about the reception of that character's depiction. They are not equal in notability and thus do not deserve the exact same comment.  Best, --A NobodyMy talk 07:31, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If the actress won an award then the actress is notable. Not the character. Sheesh. → ROUX   ₪  07:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * They go hand in hand, because the coverage of course includes it being a notable depiction of the character. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 07:38, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah um no. → ROUX   ₪  07:43, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * By any reasonable standard, yes. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 07:49, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Is there any good reason why you didn't, y'know, just talk with Moondyne? → ROUX   ₪  07:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I wanted to see what someone totally neutral from either of us thought. Best, --A NobodyMy talk 07:38, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * In other words, you couldn't be bothered? You'd rather stir up some drama? Please. The correct response is to talk to the other editor first, rather than accuse them of some underhanded conspiracy against poor hardworking editors. → ROUX   ₪  07:43, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You are the one stirring up "drama" with this feigned outrage. I asked a question; if someone thought his approach okay, then they could say as much and then that is that.  I didn't come here demanding action.  I saw something odd that didn't seem right and hoped a neutral and fair party would see what they thought and if they agreed it was just going down the Afds indiscriminately would caution against that, or if not a big deal, suggest as much and that's that.  Why you are reading beyond that is beyond me.  People should be able to not feel bullied out of asking questions when they see something that doesn't feel right and not everyone who posts here does so expecting or desiring some kind of needless uproar.  There is no reason why one fair minded admin could not have politely said either "Yes, that does seem strange; let me ask him" and then archive the thread or "Well, not too big of a deal; just check with him instead" and then so be it.  Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 07:49, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Feigned? I assure you not. Your final statement is telling; "just check with him instead." There is no good reason why you did not. None whatsoever. You have been here more than long enough to know that. → ROUX   ₪  07:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have seen several accounts who actually do troll AfDs with rapid fire copy and paste deletes and are indeed now blocked for it, which is why I am suspicious when I see it again. Yet, I do not want to assume that is the case.  And anyway, I am not an admin; I cannot make any final judgment myself.  Thus, I cannot imagine why it would be a bad idea to in good faith first ask for a neutral admin to see what he/she thought, i.e. for advice.  And in the interest of transparency, rather than email someone, just post it here.  There is absolutely no reason why on an admin board such as this it should have to descend into anything unpleasant.  I was not calling for sanctions and certainly not for any kind of public humiliation of the user, just for a neutral admin's thoughts, because I did not want to just post an accusatory message on the user's talk page if it wasn't warranted nor a more friendly request for clarification if my suspicions are more correct.  Where else, other than email, can we ask a random established admin what his or her thoughts are?  Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 08:04, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What part of 'discuss it with the user first' have you not understood in your multiple years here? Bah, forget this nonsense. → ROUX   ₪  08:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I wanted advice from an admin as to what approach to take in this case. If there's an admin advice board I am unaware of, please let me know.  Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 17:40, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If in each AFD the same reasons for deletion apply "Minor character, no real world significance," how is Wikipedia improved by making the Delete argument be phrased differently in each case? There is no WP:ELEGANTVARIATION guideline which says that the next AFD has to have different wording "Lacks real world significance, and is nothing but a minor character." Edison (talk) 16:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * My concern stemmed from the shear speed of the copy and pastes. I usually spend several minutes on any Afd I comment in: 1) to read the discussion; 2) to read, not just scan, the article to see if I agree/disagree with the comments in the discussion; 3) to see if I can find any sources on Google News, Google Scholar, Google Books, Amazon.com, Academic Search Complete, and J-Stor; 4) if I do find sources, to add what I can, or if not at least make some grammar or stylistic fixes as evidence that I did review the article and so that if it is kept, then I at least did something to improve it.  One cannot do these things for four articles in one minute's time and a fifth article in the next minute.  And when I do argue to delete, I vary my arguments to fit the circumstances and discuss where I looked for sources and the results of my searches a la Articles for deletion/A Warriors Trial, Articles for deletion/Baba Shanti Giri, Articles for deletion/Carrie Petrelli, Articles for deletion/Chihuahua heights, Articles for deletion/Geometric Negative Value Theorem, Articles for deletion/James Scott Hilk, etc.  Moreover, my concern was that while some of those did concern minor characters, others did have real world cited significance, such as for one performance that won and was again nominated for an award, i.e. the same copy and paste wording did not accurately apply across the board.  Doing more than just a scan of the articles would have revealed as much.  Best, --A NobodyMy talk 17:40, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm in huge trouble for this
Self-reporting. He has not replied to my attempt at polite communication. Seeking independent review and opinion.  Durova 277 14:39, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) My edits: moving discussion, moving discussion
 * 2) The Fat Man Who Never Came Back's edit: this is not "discussion"; these are, quite plainly, lulz. do not refactor or otherwise fuck with our lulz, Durova. you're treading on thin ice, young lady.
 * 3) My edit: restore move: commentary is admittedly disruptive
 * 4) I post to his user talk:
 * 5) The Fat Man Who Never Came Back's edit: You're in huge trouble for this....


 * Comment: Durova's moving of threaded commentary to the talk page conformed to accepted RfC formatting guidelines. The reverts and even more so the edit summaries by are incivil, disruptive, ownerous and incomprehensible. ("Lulz"? This is an encyclopedia, not a website for lulz.) He should be blocked if he keeps this up.   Sandstein   14:51, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * OTOH, he did mention your youth... style points? Anyway, if shenanigans like that continue, sanctions should ensue. Tan  &#124;  39  14:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As I see it, The Fat Man Who Never Came Back made a disruptive comment in his edit summary. To be fair, you responded with a sarcastic comment on his talk page that didn't really address the conflict. If I had found a message on my talk page like that I wouldn't have known how to immediately respond to it, and neither would I have seen it as "a polite attempt at communication". It's quite possible that I don't understand the seriousness of moving this text, or the immediate trouble that is sure to follow anyone who does so. IMHO, both parties are at fault. a little   insignificant  14:57, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sandstein, I have significant respect for you as an admin, but anyone who has spent as much time on this "project" as yourself should have long ago relieved himself of the delusion that "this is an encyclopedia, not a website for lulz." Look around.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 15:26, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * technically TFMWNCB is not an admin so your edit summary was incorrect Syrthiss (talk) 15:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Whoops, you're right... I keep forgetting, sorry... a little   insignificant  15:11, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with the above. The revert, and edit summary seem to be pretty uncivil and disruptive. I've gone ahead and informed The Fat Man Who Never Came Back about this thread. - Kingpin13 (talk) 14:59, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I was attempting to lighten the tone, rather than attempting sarcasm.  Durova  277 15:01, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Please bear in mind that I ad an edit conflict, so I was actually agreeing with Sandstein & Tan :). I can't see a big problem with your message. - Kingpin13 (talk) 15:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Alternately, Durova, you can be satisfied in the knowledge that people agree that you are technically in the right, but then just let it go as not worth the drama. C'mon people, this is not Utopia, we can allow things to get slightly messy and imperfect without threats of blocking and sanctions. Durova's response on his talk page was perfectly fine. It's all a joke, it isn't hurting things that much, TFMWNCB pushed the joke a little too far when reverting a second time. But let's go find something else to do. Also, I wish someone would call me young man. It's been decades. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:02, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

If ever there were a page that needed some lulz, that would have been it. Nonetheless, Durova's edits were proper from the prescribed format point of view. Let's drop this now. Incidentally, given the number of times that he seems to come back here, I call BS on the Fat Man's username. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:05, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * So I come to back to AN/I from time to time. Big deal.  I like my  name.  If you found out I had a svelte, Pilates-toned physique, would you complain?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 15:26, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree wholeheartedly. I don't want to see either one of two editors blocked over something like this. a little   insignificant  15:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Ignore him Durova, you are definitely not in any trouble. It clearly states at the bottom of the page [] that discussions should be taken to the talk page. And his personal remarks to you are also unnecessary. (Off2riorob (talk) 15:07, 13 July 2009 (UTC))
 * I'm sure Durova is relieved at your reassurance that she is not in trouble. Thank you.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 15:26, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks all for the swift responses. This looked like the kind of thing that could turn hot, so was mainly seeking third party intervention before any blockable action happened.  If the threaded commentary was correctly moved, would someone reinstate the move please?  Other than that, would be glad to mark this resolved.  Durova  277 15:21, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Why. So. Serious? Viridae Talk 22:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Inurhead
This user has been a minor problem for some time now, being a single-purpose account that exists apparently only to promote and maintain positive comments and puffy text regarding the film The Hurt Locker and people connected to it. This has been going on since mid-2008, including a series of edits that add glowing comments, excessive details, selectively chosen review quotes, delete negative remarks, add non-standard formatting, and so on. Editors who challenge his edits are usually reverted, often with misleading edit summaries. I have had to constantly watchlist the article, and to also review all changes to it by this editor (including following up on reviews and references to ensure they are used correctly). Today, after dealing with the latest problematic changes, I noticed that Inurhead had begun to indiscriminately revert other edits I had done in articles unrelated to anything he had seen before, This included restoring spam links and incorrectly placed material. Anyway, long story short, I don't feel comfortable acting as an admin in this case because of the past history of having to clean up after this guy, so I'd appreciate a third pair of eyes to review it. Thanks in advance. --Ckatz chat spy  03:15, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've given the user a (veiled) warning, and with luck it won't happen again. If it does, let me know.  Cheers.  lifebaka++ 04:40, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Ckatz is a bad faith, Bad Lieutenant of Wikipedia. He trolls around certain limited sites and deletes and undoes the neutral hard work of other contributors. He should be thrown out of Wikpedia forever. Seriously. This guy is VERY, VERY bad news and so much so that other users have created third party thesaurus entries to describe exactly what a "Ckatz" is. Please, if anyone of authority at Wikipedia has an ounce of integrity, back track this user and see where he has chased certain contributors and maliciously deleted their material. Ask yourself, why has he chosen this one single movie to pick on? Why not TRANSFORMERS or BRUNO? Or any number of films? Inurhead (talk) 07:32, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not acceptable. Nor is this rather eyebrow-lifting talk page. → ROUX   ₪  07:40, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the fact that the guy chooses to use hate pages by banned users as a way to justify his actions speaks volumes to the problem here. As far as I'm concerned, Inurhead has had more than enough chances to try to cooperate within the parameters of what is expected. He's a single-purpose editor who is determined to promote a particular pet topic, and he is completely unwilling to tolerate input from others. Frankly, I could care less about the foul garbage he spews when his work is questioned; his most recent toxic blast on his talk page is proof enough of where he is coming from. However, I certainly don't think this attitude should be tolerated. --Ckatz <sup style="color:green;">chat <sub style="color:red;">spy  08:30, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I've focused on one small part of the changes noted above - the release date. From what I could tell from looking at WP:FilmRelease, the correct release date for the film is 2008. I've opened a section on the talk page, left a message on Inurhead's talk page about the warring and pointing to the talk page. Inurhead has deleted that message, plus others on this topic. Yup, the year is a minor aspect, but if the user won't even attempt to discuss that, let alone anything else, on the talk page, it's not worth the time to go into the other topics raised above. At least today (so far), the edit summaries from Inurhead has been polite, so I guess that's some sign of hope. Ravensfire2002 (talk) 18:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Aasi (A sub Clan of Chadhar Rajputs)...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aasi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aasi

I, Shehzad Asif Javed, President,The Club Group of Companies, Pakistan belong to a prominent Aasi family of Jhang and i head the aasi tribe, whenever i tried to write down my name at that page it always goes for speedy deletion, You are requested to solve the issue... Regards. Shehzad Asif Javed shehzad@theclubgrouppk.com


 * Removing unreferenced material about living people? Sounds good to me. This is not the "solution" that Shehzad Asif Javed is looking for, but I stuck an unreferenced tag on the article and removed the section where a few names were listed as "Prominent Aasis" with no sources or even explanations. rspεεr (talk) 08:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * And the OP IP promptly reinstated the list.--64.85.211.140 (talk) 12:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

This is a symptom of a huge number of South Asian articles. Lots of lists of names, puffery, and little to no sourcing. I mentioned this at the Village Pump just the other day. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 22:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Mikhailov Kusserow and RfA irregularities


At Kateshortforbob RfA, impersonator accounts JauarBeck and Tnxmen307 (now blocked) voted supported. Jauarback, another impersonator account, voted in Skomorokh Rfa. Today, Mikhailov Kusserow voted support in both RfAs. In his votes he included tag, effectively hiding the support and neutral sections on the main RfA page. Mikhailov had previously been blocked for abusing sockpuppets on RfAs w/ a supposedly alternate account Michel Mapaliey (see spi), but was unblocked because he supposedly didn't know that it was against the rules.

This does not look reasonable to me. Both accounts had been registered for almost 2 years, and even if he really did not know, it's commonsense not to vote twice. Now combined w/ his recent actions, I see too much of a pattern to assume good faith. I believe administrator intervention is needed at this point.  Rami R  07:54, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Is there any actual evidence to link Mikhailov to those impersonation accounts? I agree that circumstantially he could be involved, but it doesn't look clear cut at the moment. ~ mazca  talk 07:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Beyond what's listed here, no. I'd ask for a checkuser, but the SPI page suggests that for ongoing votes ANI is preferable. However, even w/o the impersonator accounts, I'd say that something too fishy is going on.  Rami R  08:14, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * ✅ that the following are mutual matches for each other:
 * IP's already blocked. I have not checkusered Mikhailov Kusserow or Michel Mapaliey at this time. – Luna Santin  (talk) 10:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you throw in and  to see if there is a connection with these two accounts, as well? MuZemike 15:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * IP's already blocked. I have not checkusered Mikhailov Kusserow or Michel Mapaliey at this time. – Luna Santin  (talk) 10:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you throw in and  to see if there is a connection with these two accounts, as well? MuZemike 15:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * IP's already blocked. I have not checkusered Mikhailov Kusserow or Michel Mapaliey at this time. – Luna Santin  (talk) 10:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you throw in and  to see if there is a connection with these two accounts, as well? MuZemike 15:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * IP's already blocked. I have not checkusered Mikhailov Kusserow or Michel Mapaliey at this time. – Luna Santin  (talk) 10:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you throw in and  to see if there is a connection with these two accounts, as well? MuZemike 15:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you throw in and  to see if there is a connection with these two accounts, as well? MuZemike 15:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm... I guess I should be flattered. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 18:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I blocked on the basis of his behavior over several days, as detailed below. I strongly suspected that this was an IP sock of and set the block length to match the named account's 3RR block. MataNui44 was blocked for the third time for edit-warring on July 10 at 04:24. 76.95.66.209 appeared to continue a conversation begun by MataNui at Talk:Code Lyoko a few hours later, becoming abusive, , , ,. After MataNui44's block was reviewed by he turned up on her talk page to advocate for MataNui44 and to campaign for a retroactive 3RR block against. Increasingly hyperbolic comments ensue, , , and demands for punishment. I tried to engage the editor at that point, resulting in further escalation, unfortunately, , , ,. Losing patience with a catalog of incivility that would have had many editors blocked long since, and believing per DUCK that this was MataNui44, I blocked on the primary basis of long-term incivility and assumption of bad faith and set the block length to coincide with MataNui44's one-month block.

Since I'm the one that blocked him, and given his general demeanor, I doubt that any attempt by myself to convince him to modify his behavior will succeed. A sanity check on the DUCK test would be useful as well, as that influenced the block length. As an aside, Code Lyoko could use additional eyes; it's been in and out of full protection and has been the scene of a great deal of conflict. Admins are free to modify my actions if a consensus is apparent.  Acroterion  (talk)  19:07, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

User page to article space redirect
Can somebody please explain to User:Otterathome that it is unacceptable for him to redirect his user page to the article Autofellatio in protest over the supposed failure to apply WP:NOTCENSORED on that article? He seems disinclined to take my word for it. Exploding Boy (talk) 19:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've undone his redirection again. Definitely a WP:POINT violation and also a violation of the spirit (if not the letter) of WP:USER. Exxolon (talk) 19:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've also notified Otterathome about this thread. Exxolon (talk) 19:34, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that cross-namespace redirs aren't allowed. → ROUX   ₪  19:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It also violates Redirect. Exxolon (talk) 19:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Only if they are from an encyclopaedic content namespace to a non-encyclopaedic one, e.g. from the article namespace to the user namespace. There's no blanket prohibition, and there are many cases of cross-namespace redirects between project and user spaces, both of which are not part of the encyclopaedia proper.  The better points to make are (a) if someone redirects xyr user page somewhere, it really has little to no effect on the encyclopaedia proper, or indeed on any other editor; and (b) it's a bit daft to protest that an article isn't as one wants it by making one's user page the same as the article that one doesn't like. Uncle G (talk) 20:05, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I really buy that. Redirecting a user page to a non-user page or non-user space page goes against the very reason for user pages, which is "to facilitate communication among participants in [Wikipedia's] project to build an encyclopedia." Also, WP:R tells us that redirects must not cause confusion, must not be nonsensical, and must not cross name-spaces.  It's one thing to redirect a user page to a user talk page (although I can't see a particularly good reason to do so unless the user is banned), but there is no situation where I can see it being proper or useful to redirect a user page to a non-user page.  Exploding Boy (talk) 23:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well you should because it's the case. It's user talk pages that "facilitate comunication".  User pages are used for several sorts of things, far from all of which are facilitating communication.  Many people have draft articles on their user pages, for example.  And those are, ironically, of far greater concern (because the draft articles might have BLP problems or be advertisements masquerading as user pages) than a daft redirect. Uncle G (talk) 01:53, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not according to WP:USER. Exploding Boy (talk) 02:00, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Edit warring on Arbitration RFC
More eyes, please, before we have a political purge disguised as a guideline. <span style="color:#0D670D; font-family:Georgia, Helvetica;">rootology ( C )( T ) 23:32, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Removal of POV and Cite check tags on Kosovo article
Hi, User:Dbachmann, an admin, has unilaterally removed the tags here, with the reason "rm stale templates. There is the usual nationalist noise on talk, but this doesn't establish that there is any bona fide issue. If there is, use inline tags to help localize it."

The POV tag is dated December 2008. The Cite check tag is dated February 2009. I have been here for a couple of months, in that time no substantial edits have been made to merit the removal of the tags. I explained my position to the said admin here and was asked to inline tag all the non-neutral and dubious cites on the article - a move which would mean over half the article is tagged. This was explained to the admin in his talk page. The admin also accused me of improper conduct on Wikipedia, an notion I reject. The said user did not agree with my views and thus branded me a Wikipedian who gives the "usual nationalist noise on talk". I would agree that my actions have not always been proper, but my presence in the article is necessary to counter other points of view. The said user has assumed bad faith on other occasions, but I would like a response to this incident.

Regards, Interestedinfairness (talk) 22:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I observe Kosovo with amusement, and can only condone dab's actions here. If the article is really that bad, please go and inline tag it. ninety:one 23:00, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The article beings; "Kosovo is a disputed region in the Balkans." This, in its self is a POV statement as according to 62 nations (mostly English-speaking nations), it is a country located in the Balkans. Why shouldn't I be allowed to address these points without being called a "nationalist". Why should we remove the tag when a Serbian POV has been allowed to override the article and thus un-due weight is given throughout. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 00:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC)).
 * No, it's an NPOV statement because it fairly describes the existing situation. While Kosovars have unilaterally declared independence from Serbia and 62 nations have supported this, Serbia still claims Kosovo as a province and not even a plurality of the world's nations have given their support to its declaration of independence.  Until Serbia drops its claims and nearly all nations have accepted Kosovo as an independent nation, then it's quite fair, objective, and NPOV to say it is a "disputed reason".  If you could provide reliable sources confirming that Serbia has accepted Kosovo's independence and given it such recognition, then your POV would become NPOV.  As it stands, there is no reason for administrator action in this case. Askari Mark (Talk) 00:34, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you guys could formulate some compromise wording that is acceptable to all - I doubt that we would use the phrase "Israel is a disputed region in the Middle East." because a number of countries do not recognize Israel; or "Iran is a disputed region in the Middle East." for similar reasons; or "[North/South] Korea is a disputed region in Asia." or anywhere else. Perhaps using facts rather than the ambiguous weasel-word "disputed" such as Kosovo unilaterally declared independence from Serbia, 62 countries recognize such independence, and XX countries recognize Kosovo as a part of Serbia. or something else. I'm not sure any admin action is required here? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:06, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Friends, my comment was with regards to the tags being removed, this discussion on here highlights the point I'm trying to make -- that the Kosovo article still has outstanding issues which have not been resolved? What do you mean this case has been "resolved" when none of the users commented on the topic I discussed (?) The said administrator removed the tags without any consensus on any issues having been resolved since February or December respectively. (Interestedinfairness (talk) 09:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)).

The fact that this was marked "approved" without any proper discussion or relevance to my discussion on the tag removal is testimony to what I am pointing out. I have tried here and here to have a constructive debate surrounding the issue and the said user has not justified his unilateral act once. He has merely weaseled his way around answering the qeustion. Ridiculous how much power administrators have. Will an administrator not involved in Balkan related articles please look into this properly -- Interestedinfairness (talk) 09:04, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

copyright news
I bring this article to your attention, with the hope that people can "do stuff". I'll mention it on the copyright notcie board too. I have no connection with the NPG. It's a shame that they seem to have had such trouble, eh? http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23719265-details/NPG+launches+legal+battle+against+Wikipedia/article.do 87.113.86.207 (talk) 17:45, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we know all about that. It's been being discussed for several days. See WP:POST. <font color="#00ACF4">╟─TreasuryTag►Africa, Asia and the UN─╢ 17:49, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * At some point, the judiciary in these kinds of cases are going to say, "If you upload images, you assume the risk for them being copied. Case dismissed." Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 17:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That logic doesn't work ("upload a picture? People can treat it as public domain and copy it" doesn't make sense) and it would be a public policy nightmare for them to decide in such a way. Members of the judiciary also don't "pass law" as such (see the void principle) and would only be able to interpret existing statute, much of which is against us. Ironholds (talk) 19:06, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Websites that are in the business of selling photos will sometimes, or maybe often, have a built-in function so that if you hover over the photo a "watermark" will appear, and/or if you right click to try to download it, it won't let you. If that museum failed to protect their precious photos, they are on shaky ground complaining about people grabbing them. "Here I am! Totally accessible! Don't download me, though!" Right. That doesn't mean those photos qualify for wikipedia. But thousands of other sites could grab them. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, Bugs, but that doesn't mean that anyone can rip off images from other websites, bring it here, and fraudently post it as public domain, CC-BY-SA compatible, etc., because said website didn't take any actions to protect their images from being downloaded. MuZemike 07:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Obviously. I'm just saying that if you leave your car running with the doors unlocked, then you share in the blame when it gets stolen. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 07:55, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Kiss-the-cop
I want to query whether any action is warranted to deal with the actions of User:Kiss-the-cop. I don't think I have come to the admin noticeboard previously, so please redirect me if this is the wrong place to raise this issue.

As can be seen here, the user now has had multiple speedy deletes, as well as a bot-generated warning about vandalism (the nature of which I can confirm), all in response to a very limited number of edits in recent days.

User contributions, limited though they are, appear to be either creation of pages that then get deleted, or vandalism. An example is here.

Thank you. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The last three edits appear to be vandalism, so I have given the user a final warning. Normally I'd say that WP:AIV would be the place for your concerns, but given the nature of article creation, speedy deletions, and now a pattern of vandalism, AN/I can certainly be of service. I really hope the user decides to consider the warning, but the pattern indicates a downward spiral. <font color="Navy">Law <font color="Navy">type! <font color="Navy">snype? 12:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Antiedman
has a history of POV pushing on the Barack Obama article despite repeated reminders and warnings regarding consensus:. He stopped editing the article for a few weeks, but has returned. I have no idea what action, if any, this history merits, but it seems to me the user should be restricted from editing any articles related to Barack Obama. DKqwerty (talk) 03:05, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This editor should be restricted from editing any articles whatsoever. After Graham87 indefed and then unblocked on the grounds that this editor was apologetic and should get one more chance, Antiedman has been at ANI repeatedly for ridiculous things, as can be seen on the editor's talk page; for example, editing warring to place a POV tag in Multiracial American because it didn't state that people with ancestry from multiple European countries are multiracial. Looie496 (talk) 03:19, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And the user persists: . DKqwerty (talk) 03:32, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Has this user been warned about the article probation currently set on Obama (see Talk:Barack Obama/Article probation)? If not, then give one and only one warning. If so, then block away for violating article probation. MuZemike 06:56, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Antiedman got a final vandalism warning back in May. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:15, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Block, then. He was indeffed and unblocked when apologetic, but apologies mean nothing if not backed up by good behaviour. If he isn't willing to follow the rules of the game he should be thrown off the pitch. Ironholds (talk) 09:19, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely - was given another chance and obviously realises what he is doing is not appropriate. <font style="color:#9999CC;">weburiedour<font style="color:#99CC99;">drama <font style="color:#000099;">inthegarden  10:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Rhysdavy
This user appears to work for PETA. He vandalized two beef-related sites - Slaughterhouse and McDonald's logo. Both have been reverted, but the user should be sent a warning of some kind, which I don't know how to do. Groink (talk) 10:48, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Twinkle is useful for issuing warnings to users. I've done so now.  (addendum, looks like a PETA supporter rather than employee) <font style="color:#9999CC;">weburiedour<font style="color:#99CC99;">drama  <font style="color:#000099;">inthegarden  10:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like just a drive-by, but if he keeps it up, report him to WP:AIV and they'll put him in the meat locker. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:01, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * He might have a beef with that line of action. He might feel that calling in the pigs is a bit extreme.  Perhaps he's just chicken of being labelled as the goat. ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 11:13, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Anon user 98.204.183.125
Can someone please block 98.204.183.125? It seems to be a stable IP address of someone who repeatedly adds racist rubbish to several articles. Thanks. Zerotalk 11:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Try reporting at WP:AIV, vandals will normally be dealed with faster if you report them there :). Cheers - Kingpin13 (talk) 11:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh? Can't you block them yourself? What's special about this case? - Kingpin13 (talk) 11:43, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * (1) Addition of racist material, even repeatedly, is not pure vandalism as I read it. (2) I am not allowed by arbcom ruling to "use [] administrative tools [] in relation to someone with whom [I am] in a dispute". While I think this example would not be considered a violation, I'd rather not have to argue it. Zerotalk 12:01, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I personally would categorise repeated obvious racism as vandalism. It would be a personal attack in any case. Note: I haven't actually looked at this IP address' edits properly. Thanks for pointing out the arbcom situation. - Kingpin13 (talk) 12:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I've added a 4im warning (the last 4th warning was 2 months ago), and will check back on the contribs. I know I tend to extend AGF further than a lot of folks, but that's just my nature. Zero, you should probably add a notice of this thread on their talk page as well, just to cover all bases.  — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ?  12:48, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Harrassment needs correction post haste!
This change to my user page alerted me to this creation  by this "new" editor.

What do I want? I would like the user in question to be blocked. I would like the material oversighted/deleted, then I would like a checkuser to investigate the situation and figure out who the owner of YackThompson2 is and block the owner. How do I go about getting those things done? And if someone with the power to do them reads this can you go ahead and do them. TharsHammar Bits andPieces 23:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Clear such pages and tag with db-attack in the future. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 23:28, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: the attack page is gone now, but the user who created it has not been dealt with. Looie496 (talk) 17:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * User is now blocked. – Toon 17:25, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Jackie Boyz
Would somebody please delete and salt Jackie Boyz? This article has now been created three times, by three different users, all copying material from another site. The three "different" users keep just copying and pasting the information, and never discuss their edits. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 04:27, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The information is repeatedly being copied from http://winwab.com/2009/02/jackie-boyz-lyrics-bio-music/. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 04:30, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Done, thanks...RxS (talk) 04:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless it's salted, it's just going to come back again. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 04:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It looks like that was done as well. Plastikspork (talk) 04:48, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Doesn't the salting show up in the history log? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 04:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * See [ here] . Plastikspork (talk) 05:46, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hah. It doesn't show here.  Thanks.  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:07, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's the low sodium version. Plastikspork (talk) 17:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * LOL. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

User copy/pasting text
This user has copy/pasted text to a couple articles, even after I left a warning. See [ 1], [ 2], and [ 3]. The Prosper text was copied directly from prosper.com. swa q  17:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Angelawillieone

Admin incident involving 3RR block being lifted on basis of personal attacks
A rather clear cut case of a 72 hour block issued for edit warring was lifted by an admin, William M. Connolley, here upon the blocked editor making personal attacks against the reporting editor in an appeal to the block here. Are personal attacks against reporting editors now an accepted defense against 3RR blocks? Admin User:William M. Connolley is apparently worried about being de-sysopped, as noted here. Yaf (talk) 12:04, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh dear. <font style="color:#9999CC;">weburiedour<font style="color:#99CC99;">drama <font style="color:#000099;">inthegarden  12:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, to be fair, he did self-revert and offer to talk here. <font style="color:#9999CC;">weburiedour<font style="color:#99CC99;">drama <font style="color:#000099;">inthegarden  12:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And then he reverted another 4 times or so, while making the same changes, showing the self reverts were not in good faith, since he continued edit warring. 6 Reverts or even 5 reverts in much less than 24 hours is clearly in violation of 3RR.  As for making an offer to talk, you might take a look at: this.  Yaf (talk) 12:15, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No opinion on the case as a whole yet, but I also see no personal attack in SaltyBoatr's unblock request. Plus, Yaf's method of apparently trying to cast aspersions on WMC's authority as an admin by mentioning the (entirely unrelated) arbcom case, does not cast a very positive light on his conduct here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:25, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The MedCom case recommended for ArbCom was a case of the same editor "offering to talk" once before. It is entirely related, since it was about the same POV edit warrior and his "talk", regarding the exact same article for which he is now edit warring.  Looks very much related to me.  Yaf (talk) 12:32, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * We seem to be talking about different things. I was referring to your snide remark about WMC being "worried about being desysoped". Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Just the facts, sir. He made the statement, not me.  As for the personal attack, the comment regarding "And, the reporting editor Yaf is one who flatly refuses to follow WP:DR.", which is entirely false, hence is a personal attack the way I see it.  Also, the mention of me removing a note from my talk page after the block was granted.  The note was removed from my talk page prior to the block being issued.  The personal attacks through lying about facts regarding an unrelated editor (Yaf) to escape a block seem rather clear, but perhaps I am just taking the falsehoods personally, being they were directed at me.  Yaf (talk) 12:38, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Asking here in the bright light of day: Yaf, will you agree to full good faith participation in the procedures outlined at  WP:Dispute Resolution to resolve our dispute?  For my part, I make such a commitment wholeheartedly, here publicly in front of these witnesses.  Yaf, do you make this public commitment?  SaltyBoatr (talk) 20:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not seeing any personal attacks in the unblock request. This looks like your usual soapboxing, Yaf, against WMF. <font color="#CC0000">seicer | <font color="#669900">talk  | <font color="#669900">contribs  14:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Stating that someone "flatly refused" is a personal attack? No. Not even close. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  14:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You know, it might be. Using the word "fuck" in an exasperated sense already is. Sceptre (talk) 16:37, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Contrary to Yaf's original assertion, my block of SB wasn't clear cut. Unusually, I did it on the basis of the reported diffs, rather than on looking through the history myself. Because of that, I missed SB's self revert. That made the block questionnable, and on another inspection I couldn't see 4 clear R. Furthermore, Yaf's failure to mention the self-rv showed bad faith. So I unblocked SB, because I was no longer happy to sustain the block. William M. Connolley (talk) 22:09, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Closing comment
I object to the closing comment. Referring to a "snide whiney" comment is basically a WP:Personal attack and counterproductive. Please strike it out.Ferrylodge (talk) 19:42, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It does not reach anywhere close to being a violation of WP:NPA. It's a comment about an EDIT and not an EDITOR.  Please don't extend the drama any further than needed. ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 19:59, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Saying that someone behaves like a fucking prick is not better than calling the person a fucking prick. If there's going to be an accusation that someone was snide and whining, then let's have a quote.Ferrylodge (talk) 20:02, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Radiokid1010
is removing his unblock requests and the denials from his Talk page. Isn't that disallowed as long as the block is in place? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 03:25, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The guideline says 'may', but in practice it is not allowed. And personally I think it indicates they are attempting to pretend any unblock they put up is the first one. Admins should check, of course, but it's just a bad idea. → ROUX   ₪  03:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, per WP:BLANKING, one of the things they are NOT supposed to remove is block notices and declined unblock requests while the block is still active. Once the block expires or is lifted, they are free to do what they want with them.  --Jayron32. talk . say no to drama  07:00, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I know what WP:BLANKING says (emphasis mine): "Important exceptions may include declined unblock requests". But y'know, since policies and guidelines are supposed to be descriptive and not proscriptive, I'm going to go ahead and change that. → ROUX   ₪  07:20, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

BorgQueen tried to give Radiokid a second chance, and he immediately went back to removing interwiki links, so BorgQueen blocked him again for 72 hours, he's now requesting an unblock. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:14, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Disruptive editing over Early life and career of Barack Obama
Editor continues to edit disruptively by re-introducing a the birther argument to Early life and career of Barack Obama over the birth certificate that various editors, including two admins, have said was going no where, was denigrating into a forum discussion, and had no consensus. This editor then first went and created a sub page (Barwick later said they misunderstood archiving and thought it was fine to create a sub page.) and then edited out the other comments of other editors leaving only Barwick's edits  with the summary of: "Archiving old rants from multiple parties (see Archive 1), and cleaning up to discuss the facts and items under dispute". User:DJ Clayworth closed and deleted the re-hashing of the argument "This dicussion was moved to another page and then closed down". Shortly there after Barwick re-inserted the section with the edit summary of "No, it was not "discussed", it turned into a "forum', and was useless "my dad can beat up your dad" pettyness. This is a discussion of the facts,". I then deleted it and then Barwick re-introduced it again.  All through this, no new reliable sources were presented to back up the argument.  This editor continues to not understand that the argument was closed.  Brothejr (talk) 16:48, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the latest form the Barwick has shaped the section with the summary: "Here, let's make it even easier and separate the facts section so you can find it..." Brothejr (talk) 16:56, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I am aware of this notice, and I agree with Brothejr's summary. Barwick has several times attempted to restart a debate on the 'truth' of Obama's birthplace. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * As per precedent, disruption on Obama articles should lead to blocks after one good faith warning. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * This story, if it proves to have any legs, could complicate matters: Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 17:48, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That story is already documented at Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories --guyzero | talk 17:59, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That would be the place for it, then. Until, or if, something comes of this issue, it should be confined to that page. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:03, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Technically Barwick is only disrupting the talk page. However if another admin would like to block him that might be a good idea. Even though I came to the article as a neutral arbiter (he's not my president!) I've probably been there too long to be considered neutral now. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:56, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Disruption of the Talk page has led to numerous blocks. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 18:42, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Just warned Barwick that he could be blocked for disrupting the talk page. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:53, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Looks like a tag team of sorts now; one hits the talk page, while the other does the article. Already earned a 1-day block just 2 days ago, and appears to be back at it as soon as that expired, already racking up 2 today. Tarc (talk) 18:06, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Jawesome98's block expired. Looks like it's time for a renewal. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Renewed, 3 days. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:48, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This discusoin here seems to intesect with the Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories they have contributed extensively to. i was wondering if anyone here can ehlp me stabilzie this article be looking up some minutiate points regardin some of the minor people who hare involved with this subject, princiaplly the lawyer in the Cook case, a Mrs. Orly Taitz who has been listed as both a dentist and lawyer on this page. if we can clear up this confusion, I am confident that user Jawesome and User:Brawick will be willing to come to a negotiation on that talkpage instead of messing with the Early Life of Barack Obama page. Smith Jones (talk) 18:46, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Jawesome98's Talk page has drive-by edits saying that he was mentioned at WND. I tried finding the mention at their website, but couldn't.  Does anybody know what the IP editor is talking about?  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 18:51, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * have you considered my proposal? re: WND, I launched an exhaustive inquery into the nonreggies claim on Mr Jawesomes talk page on the website of both World Net Daily and several of its affiliates websites. There was no matches as can be evidenced [ http://www.wnd.com/search.asp?offsite here]. I think that Jawesome98 might have posted on WND's forum under a diferent username than the one he uses for Wikipedia, or maybe the non-reggie had him confused with someone else with similar plitical leanings. Anyway, I think it might be ared herring and not material to the nature of Orly Taitz Smith Jones (talk) 18:56, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Just saw the last two entries about Jawesome98... Why does everyone assume people are tag teaming? This makes no sense. Regardless... I have already brought this matter up by asking the Mediation Cabal to review the actions of the two editors whom I believe have slowly lost their neutrality on this issue. The reason I believe this is because over the three days I have been advocating this discussion, while my main facts have never been addressed, the administrator's demands went from "Let's discuss this on the talk page", to "Provide reliable sources", to "This isn't relevant to the topic", to "Everybody else believes this has been settled", to "Only conspiracy theorists believe this", to "This has already been discussed", all while still failing to address the main facts presented.

This discussion I brought up was going nowhere because *nobody* was responding to the facts I presented, or responding to the claims that were made based on those facts. That doesn't mean the argument has no merit, it means the opposing viewpoint so far has not presented a defense.

The link to the Mediation Cabal is here Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2009-07-15/Talk:Early_life_and_career_of_Barack_Obama--Barwick (talk) 19:01, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * There is nothing to really mediate. The matter of Birther conspiracies in Obama-related articles is quite settled on the grounds of WP:RS, WP:FRINGE, and WP:UNDUE.  Continuously edit-warring to jam it in wherever possible is disruptive and usually dealt with accordingly, via Requests for arbitration/Obama articles or Talk:Barack Obama/Article probation. Tarc (talk) 19:54, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Germany (terminology)
Hello, in that article someone is replacing the content by a redirect. I do not want to start an edit-war, and I easily admit that I am not very familiar with the rules in en.wp. Could someone have a look at the case? Thank you in advance --Ziko (talk) 21:42, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Consensus seems to exist in favor of the redirect on the talk page but it's quite weak and mainly based on the fact that the article does not cite sources at all for any content. You can try to invite members of WikiProject Germany into the discussion or start a request for comments but I would advise against reverting the redirect until more discussion has taken place. See also Dispute resolution. Regards  So Why  21:50, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I reverted the redirect - I don't see a consensus for it on the talk page. In any event this is not a matter for ANI (yet). – ukexpat (talk) 21:53, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think this is now resolved: User:Cs32en has moved the content to History of Germany and restored the redirect. – ukexpat (talk) 22:02, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Norcalal & User:Highspeed
These users have worked together to make disruptive edits including vandalizing my talk page, and wikistalk articles I have created or contributed to and nominate them for deletion. I have blocked User:Highspeed as a sock of User:Biaswarrior per WP:DUCK as Biaswarrior had engaged in previous similar stunts, but Norcalal considers that I am biased against him and so I'll let an uninvolved admin figure out whether he's a sock, a problem, or whatever. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:55, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I fail to see where Norcalal has 'vandalised [your] talk page'. Would you please back this up with a diff(s)? <font face="Trebuchet MS">— <font color="#5A3696">neuro <font color="#5A3696">(talk) 18:20, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * He posted this to Highspeed's talk the same day that Highspeed vandalized my talk page, it's clear who the personal attack was refering to. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:59, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Long thread on the larger topic here, WT:WikiProject Cities. Pfly (talk) 07:45, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That provides some background, but that issue and vandalism/wikistalking/sock puppetry is what we're discussing, unless you think that others in that discussion are involved? I don't but maybe you know something more, please advise. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 15:18, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I take exception to the following: "These users have worked together to make disruptive edits including vandalizing my talk page, and wikistalk articles I have created or contributed to and nominate them for deletion." ---I have never vandalized anyone's talk page or nominated any article for deletion. Therefore, I could not have wiki-stalked articles for deletion. Its true that a lot of article creation in California counties has been a cause for concern, if not occasional ire but the charges from Carlossuarez46 are unfounded or untrue. However at this time, I would make the point that it looks like said editor is willing to trump up charges against me over a difference of opinion related to the value of some (not all) of the articles created. I do not know what a sock is. I imagine it has something to do with a ghost account that an editor might use to look like someone else. But as far as I can see that has nothing to do with the articles in Humboldt County that I am mostly concerned with. It is true that I have been trying to make sense of the rapid article development as of late in many counties, but I have made mostly small adjustments related to some of additions in articles I know quite well. I think that is normal editing. No one has ownership of any article. In at least one case, I made a very clear point in the City of Arcata. If San Francisco was briefly called Yerba Buena why is it not listed as "(formerly Yerba Buena)" in its header. But the information related to use of Arcata's brief original name, that information was ALREADY cited and placed in the history section long before any more recent changes. As I read the interesting arguments about the use of GNIS I see that there has been much considerate deliberation. I hope it all leads to more complete, well organized articles and templates. But one thing is for sure at the moment. There are repetitions and errors in templates that are ill conceived by relying totally on the GNIS. The issue with Bucksport and Buck's Port in Humboldt County is one of the issues around recent prolific stub article creation that needs clarifying-there was only one and the same location, but references may have developed from old sources to confuse that. Even so, there should be an (single) entry about this (single) historic location now completely absorbed by the City of Eureka. Again, I have seen some similarity in concern in Mono County and Monterrey County for what I saw happening in Humboldt, but I have never wittingly worked together with anyone in the manner described above. It is not in my nature despite being upset at the onset of this period of massive article creation in many counties in California that I am familiar with. Norcalal (talk) 05:21, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What caused you to post on Highspeed's talk page about me on the day he vandalized my talk page? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 05:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have no knowledge of vandalism from Highspeed toward you or anyone else. My perception was that he was having a similar reaction in Monterrey as I was having in Humboldt. The posts of his that I noted were only related to your edits/article creation that he tagged for "speedy deletion" related to obscure article stubs related to the GNIS source debate (a real debate going on parallel to this issue here). I assumed Good Faith (not knowing otherwise) and had no idea that he had tampered with anything. I still have not researched the claim of vandalism to your talk page...mostly because I only look for discussion on the GNIS issue, which has taught me quite a lot about the process of development around here. I track a lot of coastal articles (and their counties and templates for that matter) related to my many interests, so there is good reason for me to watch this issue and others in the larger California setting. My issue is only this: If you created an article related to a mistaken/misspelled name of a locale in GNIS, it will be difficult, if not impossible, to find a resource to say that a place that never was never existed. I resent being brought on trial here and lumped in with this "Highspeed" character because there is no connection. This is the last I will engage this discussion. Norcalal (talk)
 * So, you see that he is trying to delete geographic article - a kindred spirit you had no prior contact with and leave a negative comment about me after he vandalizes my talk page, which you didn't notice per WP:AGF. OK. FWIW, if an article's title is mistaken/misspelled, you can always WP:MOVE it to its correct title, but after being here as long as you, I assume you know that. Just make sure that you have a reference that verifies that title. Cheers, Carlossuarez46 (talk) 06:32, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I did not research why he was trying to delete an article, I saw others as well suggesting articles for deletion...again I assumed he was a real editor with a vested interest in the locale. You still seem surprised at the undertone of antagonism that comes your way. Perhaps your responses where you decide calling other editors a "DICK" might be inflammatory. I have not had a stranger call me that since the 7th grade so I know I was taken aback...perhaps others are/were too. On the flip side, I have had extraordinarily patient editors and admins have reason to be upset with a mistake I or others have made, take time to help make sense of it all and none of those reduce their interaction to orders and demands as you do. So whatever. Your use of "Kindred spirit" in the above may relate to what I expected (assumed) to find in Highspeed: A local editor in shock over your rapid article creation (without knowing otherwise). The statements made here and in other posts related to the GNIS mess as I see it are honest ones from an editor who has been here a while. I don't research everything in a controversy, just the stuff that matters to me. I bet in that respect I am not alone. Norcalal (talk) 07:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I'm sure I've ever been called "rapacious" before. So we all have new experiences here. We're here to write an encyclopedia, to increase the knowledge available to the world. Where the inclusion of articles that are referenced is met with so much antagonism, attempts at deletion of notable articles with little more than "it's not notable" as a rationale, and now vandalism seems heavy handed. I'm not saying that all the articles can be expanded quickly to more than stubs, but Kneeland, California demonstrates that is quite possible. Now, you know more first hand about Humboldt County than I do, but I can use sources that are reliable to put together a little something. Perhaps by focusing your efforts from deleting articles like Kneeland, you can put it into improving them and expanding them. Anyway, this seems resolved and I'll take you on your good faith that you didn't know Highspeed from before. And will mark it such. If you want to continue the conversation, my talk page is open.... Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:03, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * My term "rapacious" resulted you AFTER you ordered me to move on AND after you called me a dick. Secondly, I have not deleted any articles. Even in the resolve (according to you) you sting because you can. It is unnecessary and you continue to retain the inflammatory tone that you are now, perhaps, (in)famous for. Thanks for that contribution. BTW, there are other editors, many of whom have been around for a good long while, who have questioned not only your reliance on GNIS and one other admin questioned your attitude of what could be described as bullying or heavy handed use of admin privilege. I will consider this resolved if you stop the attack of words. Norcalal (talk) 03:14, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Eyes requested
I came across this watching recent changes and it looked strange. I thought I'd bring it here to see if anything needs to be done. Thanks  Tide  rolls  01:00, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The edit before that made this an obvious VOA case. Indef blocked. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  01:03, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Anyone want to handle the unblock request? <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  01:23, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It was a good block, I'm sure he'll get denied in short order. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><b style="color:#060;">'''Javért</b> |Talk 01:27, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Unblock request declined. Making personal attacks in the unblock request is a surefire way to get them declined. TN <b style="color:midnightblue; font-size:larger;">X</b> Man  01:31, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Har har. I guess I should I ask if I'm allowed to decline a second unblock request or wait for a third admin. TN <b style="color:midnightblue; font-size:larger;">X</b> Man  01:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Is there a wikipedia essay on "famous last words"? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ by . – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 02:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a legal threat. If the user lashes out any further, then remove talk page editing privileges. MuZemike 07:14, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * See Sockpuppet investigations/The abominable Wiki troll. It's another sockpuppet account in a long line of the same.  Revert, block, and ignore.  Uncle G (talk) 03:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Aarontw's copyvios & bad FU rationales
As has not edited in over nine months and may never return, perhaps there's no point in doing anything about this beyond what I'm already doing, which is reviewing his uploads one-by-one, but this editor has repeatedly uploaded copyvio images he claims were self-created, and adding to other uploads FU rationales it'd be hard to see as anything but bad-faith -- for instance, characterizing copyrighted photographic portraits of (living) human subjects as "historically significant paintings". Among the user's uploads are indeed a few low-res images of paintings which perhaps meet NFCC; the rest are really problematic. I'd attribute this to newbieism, except that the user was still uploading copyvios five months after first being notified there were problems with his uploads. That's plenty of time to become familiar with the policies he was being notified about if he'd really wanted to. --Rrburke(talk) 20:09, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Indefblocked for apparent copyright violations. If they contact us and turn out to be the actual image owner they can be unblocked immediately, but until then they're blocked.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:52, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Alansohn
This editor and I have clashed on any number of occasions and will likely continue to clash in the future. So take this concern for what it's worth, bearing that history in mind. I have no intention of getting into a he said/he said pissing match with him over this concern, so I hope that responses along the lines of "well, Otto did such-and-such" will not be allowed to draw focus from the concern at hand. Alansohn becomes very passionate about the CFD process. That's fine, I do too, again, this isn't about me. His passion leads him to adopt a number of inappropriate tactics in CFD discussions. His latest tactics, most recently employed here, is to rage against the system itself, deriding it as a "game". He couples this tactic with a blanket accusation that deleting categories that he finds personally acceptable but that a CFD has found should be deleted is automatically "disruption", the false assertion that categories are deleted because "one editor doesn't like them" and the distortion that editors routinely nominate categories, not for the reasons they state in their nominations, but again because they don't "like" the categories. Using any one of these tactics without some supporting evidence by any editor is enough to call the actions of that editor into question. Combining all of them and repeatedly employing them in what amount to boilerplate keep opinions constitutes an utter and abject failure to assume good faith. It is also blatant incivility, which is bad enough in general but also particularly ironic given that Alansohn routinely accuses other editors of being uncivil toward him. I have repeatedly advised him of these concerns and asked him not to engage in such behaviour, to no avail. Whatever remedy the community feels is appropriate to stop this constant bad conduct is fine, but at the least I would hope the editor will be instructed to stop making bad-faith accusations about his fellow editors. Otto4711 (talk) 20:37, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems like an attempt at WP:WQA should precede an appeal to ANI for this issue. Looie496 (talk) 20:49, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If it were simply an etiquette problem I would agree, but my feeling is that 1) an appeal on the etiquette issue would be unproductive given the editor's history and 2) the bad-faith accusations of "disruption" and the "they just don't like it" business goes beyond the scope of simple etiquette. Otto4711 (talk) 20:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As I am unfamiliar with the dispute at CfD and as no evidence has been presented to illustrate a problem, it is difficult for me to consider whether this request is actionable. Generally, however, I would say that if an editor's conduct was usually satisfactory but tended to deteriorate at CfD, then a topic ban from category deletion discussions might be the best way forward. AGK 21:04, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what else you're looking for in the way of evidence. There is a link in my above comment to the most recent incident. Otto4711 (talk) 21:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

For reference, his Arbcom editing restrictions are set out here. I have had a disagreement with Alansohn at DRV about one of my CFD closes, so I will not involve myself further. BencherliteTalk 21:23, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

A lot of usually good editors have been boiling over lately. But honestly, not Alansohn too?!-- The LegendarySky Attacker 21:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks to me that he has been blocked 6 times for violating his Arbcom restrictions, most recently (and most lengthily) for 55hrs. The arbcomm restriction reads "... he may be briefly blocked, up to a week in the event of repeated violations. After 5 blocks, the maximum block shall increase to one month" 142.58.118.218 (talk) 22:13, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it's a good thing you brought this here 142.58.118.218 his block log is one of the chunkiest I've seen. This discovery changes everything. Yes, a block should be needed. It sucks though, because up until now, I've always kept this editor in high regard.-- The LegendarySky Attacker 22:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Although it does appear Otto, looking at what the other party has stated below, that your activity has not been so fantastic either. You truly have been launching a few incivil remarks and other attacks here and there, haven't you?-- The LegendarySky Attacker 22:30, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I never claimed to be Caeser's wife, which is why I said what I said in my opening remarks. Otto4711 (talk) 22:32, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And how exactly does that make your comments appropiate?-- The LegendarySky Attacker 22:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I never claimed that it did. Otto4711 (talk) 22:43, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I have been careful to try to restrain my remarks and to avoid personal attacks. Unlike Otto4711, I have based all of my arguments on Wikipedia policy and never said "fuck admins in their fucking necks because they fucking suck" (see edit summary here), characterized the opinions of other editors as "bullshit" (see here) or told someone that "If your stream of crap helps you make it through the day then more power to you" (see here). I have never misrepresented someone's argument and called the other party "arrogant" (see here) or told them to "shut up about it" (see here). I do acknowledge that I have a firm belief in the use of reliable and verifiable sources while Otto insists that "Reliable sources are not and have never been the standard for categories, regardless of your many failed attempts to demand otherwise. I have to wonder if after all this time you still actually don't understand that..." (see here). I don't think that anything I have ever said or done in my 200,000 edits approaches any of this small sample of Otto's incivility problem, but I guess that his example may encourage me to be more brusk than I should be. I do agree that I should do a better job of ignoring Otto's provocations and will continue my efforts to deal with Otto's disruptions more productively and not respond in kind. Alansohn (talk) 22:25, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) You're suggesting that an angry outburst from April 2007, a year or more before I knew of your existence, serves as justification for your actions today. As noted in my opening remarks, "Otto did such and such" doesn't excuse your actions. 2) Neither your stated reliance or non-reliance on RS or V nor my opinions about them in relation to categorization has anything to do with your bad-faith accusations of disruption. Otto4711 (talk) 22:55, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If I may Alansohn, naturally, your pledge not to respond to pestering incivility with incivil responses is a good thing, but does not go to the matter at hand. which seems to be that when you said "In the disruptive game that is CfD, "process" only applies to anything necessary to delete categories any one editor doesn't like. Neither consensus nor reliable sources can stand in the way of this "process" that you were being dishonest in your characterization of previous consensus decisions as being the decision of one person, who was disruptively gaming the system.  The suggestion was not that you were using naughty words, but that your failure to attribute good faith to the views of the community when it opposes your views amounts to disruption.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.58.118.218 (talk) 22:57, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * IP, your two edits here are so far your only two. I am not accusing you of anything, rather asking a simple yes or no question. Are you the IP of Otto4711?-- The LegendarySky Attacker 23:05, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.58.118.218 (talk) 23:30, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * For the record, my IP address starts with 70.226. I have not been in contact with the anon or anyone else regarding this matter outside of this discussion. Otto4711 (talk) 04:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm tending to agree with AGK here: lots of heat & smoke but no light. So Alansohn thinks the processes in a given forum is a joke. I've thought that too, if I haven't voiced it. However, unless someone wants to provide diffs that show Alansohn was incivil or abusive in stating that opinion, please take this dispute elsewhere -- & maybe that would be best not back to WP:CfD. -- llywrch (talk) 00:03, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately I don't have every instance of Alansohn's incivility bookmarked, but a quick look back yields a few diffs. I can look for more, especially those that establish his pattern of bad-faith accusations. here he suggests that I'm ignorant. here he suggests I'm "foolish" and "nonsensical" and uses the same attack language in his edit summary. In this DRV he makes the rather serious accusation that administrators are vote-stacking through the use of so-called "supervotes" and makes the bad-faith accusations that the closing admin engaged in "clear administrative misconduct" and that he and other unnamed admins are "pushing a personal agenda". When asked to offer proof, his response was "res ipsa loquitur" (along with an acknowledgement of months spent tracking my movements). Another bad-faith accusation of disruption. A bad-faith accusation of "abuse" and of the nominator nominating a category because he doesn't like it. There are plenty of others. In too many instances, Alansohn's first line of approach in discussing a CFD or DRV is to claim that the process is defective, that deleting categories is "disruptive", that nominating categories is "abuse" and that the people making and supporting the nomination are doing so solely because they do not "like" the category. At DRV he often adds accusations of bad conduct and bad faith on the part of closing admins. His intent seems to be to shift the focus of the discussion from the relative merits of the category to the motive and character of other participants. It's quite telling that his response to this discussion was not to discuss the specifics of the situation at hand but to go bak into his bookmarked diffs to attempt to shift the focus away from his conduct and try to make this about me, along with blaming me for his inability to control himself. If the consensus is that he's violated his editing restrictions (I knew he was under some restriction but did not know the specifics until reading the above link) then he should be subject to the sanction called for by those restrictions. If not then at the very least the result of this discussion should be that Alansohn is put on notice that continued bad-faith accusations and claims will result in sanctions. Otto4711 (talk) 04:35, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I see nothing recent that would be grounds for a block. Apparently, neither has anyone else. In that light, let's all drop this. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  05:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I looked at the diffs Otto provided & independently came to much the same conclusion as Tan. While his language in the first two diffs are borderline, they are fairly close to his last block & could be either momentary slips or poor choices of words: nowhere close to falling under the terms of his restrictions. Incidentally, in the other two cases Otto linked to, Alansohn interacted with Good Ol'factory -- the same Admin who blocked him twice -- & had Alansohn been out of line I trust he would have done something like given him a warning, a block, or asked another Admin to block Alansohn. BTW, I note the last time Alansohn & Otto4711 were blocked was the same day. In other words, "Pot. Kettle. Black." Let's move on now. -- llywrch (talk) 05:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Otto does not distinguish between what he sees as incivility -- of the type best evidenced by his vicious personal attacks and repeated use of the most vulgar profanities and insults -- and issues raised regarding legitimate concerns of use of Wikipedia policy. Where there are such concerns they have been raised, and calling discussion of these issues at DRV "incivility", especially where a half-dozen other editors have raised the same concerns in the same discussion, is not evidence of a real issue. Any and all editing restrictions expired a month ago, as Otto is well aware. As stated above, I will work further to avoid further provocations and trolling from Otto and to ensure that any comments focus exclusively on issues directly related to Wikipedia policy. I have made repeated suggestions to Otto to try to work cooperatively to de-escalate his conflict, which he has consistently refused to accept (see here for an example). Any suggestions from uninvolved editors to help mitigate further conflict with Otto will be greatly appreciated. Alansohn (talk) 05:14, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Block summary
Am I the only one who thinks that this block summary is improper? I (and User:Caspian blue) have asked the blocking administrator to change that summary, though, his reaction was to remove Caspian blue's request and to ignore mine. Regards, — <span style="font-family: 'Georgia', serif; color: #20406F;">Aitias // <span style="font-family: 'Georgia', serif; color: #20406F;">discussion  22:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think this can be added to Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abd-William M. Connolley.--Caspian blue 22:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * @A: CB is trouble-making; no great surprise. I didn't ignore your request; I replied to it William M. Connolley (talk) 23:05, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * William M. Connolley, the ArbCom case with your name speaks for itself (your fourth ArbCom case?); no wonder. --Caspian blue 23:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * @WMC: I don't know what CB's intentions are, though, as I am WP:AGF I don't think he wants to make trouble at all. In any case, however, my only intention is that you change your improper block summary; if you simply were to go ahead and do it, we could just archive this thread without any trouble. :) — <span style="font-family: 'Georgia', serif; color: #20406F;">Aitias // <span style="font-family: 'Georgia', serif; color: #20406F;">discussion  23:13, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Geese, bored admin? or just drama mongering? And "threats" about arb-com. Give it a break - a valid explanation was given re the block on the user's talk. Why don't we move along and actually edit an article rather than raising a silly ker-fluffle here. Yeah - now you can complain about me 'cause I didn't do something "proper" or dot some i somewhere. Vsmith (talk) 23:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

"Malaise, n. (1) A feeling of general bodily discomfort or unpleasantness, often at the onset of illness." From wiktionairy. What's wrong with the block summary, given that the block was proper (obviously if the block was improper, there are other issues)? Protonk (talk) 00:19, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Protonk, hi. As I said at WP:WQA.... "A good block summary identifies the specific behavior that the block is intended to prevent. It's not a message to the person being blocked; it's a record of who blocked whom, and why. I haven't suggested that WMC's summary was uncivil, but I have suggested that it was callow and unprofessional. I stand by that, and I'll add that such block summaries make the logs less useful." Yeah. That's my issue with it. It's not an example of "best practices". Admins are expected to model best practices; otherwise, what right have we to complain about people following our examples? -GTBacchus(talk) 02:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Good to see you came back, Aitias. A shame you returned before the Arbitration case regarding your actions and conduct could be finished. <font color="#CC0000">seicer | <font color="#669900">talk  | <font color="#669900">contribs  01:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Seicer, I realize that I'm a n00b by your standards, but that was totally uncalled for! — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ? 01:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Nah, if one individual is going to complain with false or misleading statements again and again, then they should be called out for their *ahem* more than lively candor not all that long ago. <font color="#CC0000">seicer &#x007C; <font color="#669900">talk  &#x007C; <font color="#669900">contribs  01:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey, I'm not making judgments on WMC, but truth be told, he's an admin. that has been involved in a fair number of controversial actions lately. I see no reason whatsoever to cast disparaging remarks on another editor/admin who asks for some explanation.  I'm not defending either editor, I'm not supporting either editor - but that post was not in line with what we should be doing here.  If you have an issue with Aitias, then you should take it up on his/her talk page - if it is something you feel that needs to be addressed by the community, then file an RFC/U or RFAR. — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ?  01:52, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey, has everybody seen WP:NODRAMA? – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 02:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * sigh, you're absolutely right Julian - my apologies. (pretty odd thing when someone half my age can tell me to "grow up", and actually be right about it.) — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ? 02:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

IP disruption, possible off-wiki tag team coordination on Epirotes
I have recently become involved in a dispute with User:Sarandioti and User:I Pakapshem at Epirotes. Because the topic is contentious, I have opened a discussion on the talkpage. I thought the matter settled when I brought a couple of sources to back what I'm saying, but then, an IP editor popped out of nowhere and promptly undid my edit. This IP has popped up at just the "right" time in the past, whenever I happened to be involved in a dispute with I Pakapshem , specifically, on June 8 at Sarande, Gjirokaster and Paramythia. I then notified admin User:J.delanoy here, User talk:J.delanoy, who deemed it sufficiently fishy to ask for a checkuser. Although the checkuser was inconclusive, the suspicion lingered. I then performed several more edits, which were also swiftly undone by I Pakapshem and the IP. I again notified J.delanoy User talk:J.delanoy, who advised me to post here.

Now, a while back a number of Albanian editors organized off-wiki, on MSN, as can be seen here [] (Goole translation here: |en|Mbledhje%20do%20ta%20organizojme%20tek%20faqja%20jote%20%20%3A)%0D%0A%0D%0AOre%20si%20do%20bashkohemi%20ne%20e%20te%20vendosim%20se%20si%20do%20veprojm%C3%AB%3F%20Po%20ftoj%20edhe%20disa%20te%20tjere%20ne%20faqen%20tende.--Taulant23%20(talk)%2021%3A49%2C%205%20June%202009%20(UTC)%0D%0A%0D%0AMe%20gjithe%20qejf.%20Na%20duhet%20pak%20organizim.%20--Balkanian%60s%20word%20(talk)%2021%3A50%2C%205%20June%202009%20(UTC)%0D%0A%0D%0AFtova%20Sarandiotin%20dhe%20Aigestin%2C%20ne%20faqen%20tende.%20Derisa%20e%20ke%20bllokimin%3F%20Don't%20give%20them%20reasons%20se%20ate%20duan%20plehrat.%20Ai%20Athenean%20besoj%20se%20e%20mban%20mend%20me%20Tsourkpk%2C%20po%20i%20njejti%20mut%20eshte.%20Hajde%20se%20flasim%2C%20--Taulant23%20(talk)%2021%3A57%2C%205%20June%202009%20(UTC)%0D%0A%0D%0AVellezer%2C%20do%20flasim%20me%20lirshem%20ne%20msn.%20Balkanian%20ti%20e%20di%20msn-in%20tim%2C%20dhe%20kemi%20bashkepunuar.%20Taulant%2FAigest%20me%20dergo%20msn-in%20tend%20me%20email(e%20kam%20te%20hapur%20si%20zgjidhje%20ne%20userpage)%20dhe%20flasim%20atje%20te%20tere.%20Ketu%20na%20shikojne.%20Bllokimi%20i%20Balkanian%20mbaroi(24%20ore%20ishte)%20--Sarandioti). Then we have Sarandioti asking Aigest to send in his msn (translation: |en|Kur%20te%20mundesh%20me%20dergo%20msn-in%20tend%2C%20qe%20te%20flasim%20te%20tere%20atje%20per%20wikipedian.%20%20--Sarandioti%0D%0A). Then yesterday, we have User:Aigest adding material on an individual named Cerciz Topulli in Gjirokaster, and today, presto, we have Sarandioti posting an image of the same individual in the same article. Aigest has also been following me around, editing articles that he seldom does, such as Epirotes and Gjirokaster (after Sarandioti started edit-warring there). This creates the suspicion that these two, and possibly more, are coordinating off-wiki. The IP, which appears unrelated, could be an anonymous member of this group that only interevenes when summoned on MSN. Then, we also have User:Taulant23 saying here "The IP understands English" (translation: |en|Mbaj%20mend%20ne%20Iliret%20si%20artikull%20e%20mbaruam%2C%20vume%20dhe%20lidhjen%20me%20Shqipetaret.%20Si%20tek%20gjuha%20si%20tek%20disa%20libra%20etj.%20Nuk%20zgjati%20shume%20dhe%20%C3%A7do%20gje%20u%20fsheh%2C%20autoret%20e%20librave%20mbi%20Iliret%20u%20bene%20pseudoautor%2C%20shtremberruan%20fjalite%2C%20gjerisa%20arriten%20sot%20te%20vene%20Nationalistic%20ideas.%20Jane%20dhe%20dy%20te%20tjere%20te%20cilat%20kane%20biles%20edhe%202%20akaunte%20(kuptohet%20nga%20Anglishtja%20the%20IP%20adresa)%20qe%20veprojne%20ne%20menyre%20te%20njejte.%0D%0A). When asked by Future Perfect to translate what he just wrote, Taulant disingenuously refused. The above, and the fact the the IP appears only when I am involved in a dispute with Sarandioti or I Pakapshem makes me think we could be dealing with a tag-team that coordinates off-wiki.

Throughout these proceedings, User:Sarandioti has been following me around in a disruptive manner, defending the IP editors and making bogus accusations against me [ ("another fals accusation", even though it's about the IP, not Sarandioti)]   .  The disruption reached the point that J.delanoy threatened him with a block if he persisted.

While this situation is complex and I realize it many not be possible to prove off-wiki coordination, for the time being I would like to request that someone semi-protect Epirotes as the IP disruption there shows no sign of abatement. --Athenean (talk) 01:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Jccort and Scpmarlins
The user Jccort is removing "AfD" (Article for Deletion) nomination tags on two pages; Greek Life at the University of Florida, and Greek Life at Florida State University. I nominated both of these articles for deletion because they do not meet the general notability requirements of WP:UNIGUIDE and because they contain Indiscriminate list of fraternities and sororities.

The user contends that this is vandalism because I am an alumni of a rival school, and because our schools Greek Life page was nominated for deletion a week ago. I explained to the user that I nominated Greek Life articles that did not met the preceding requirements, leaving others that meet the requirements. One can check this. I nominated four or five separate articles. In addition, the user is using their rollback privileges to do this. Rollback privileges are not supposed to be used in articles unless it is a clear violation of policy, which these edits are not. Even if someone believes that I did do this for vandalism purposes, which is open to your own interpretation, the articles nomination for deletion lists valid reasons and the user can list their respective grievances on the articles nomination for deletion page.

As well, the editors user page states that he is "RETIRED - no longer active on Wikipedia", when fact he is. This is purposefully misleading.
 * I will change it to "Semi-Retired" Jccort (talk) 02:42, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I am a proud UCF Alumni of 1986, and while I am not a big UF or FSU fan, the nomination for deletion lists valid reasons and should not be removed willy nilly because this one editor believes it bias, that is what the debate is for.

Any interpretation is welcome at this time. --Scpmarlins (talk) 02:13, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The AfD templates have been re-added. As notability reqs have not been met, any unwarranted removal of AfD tags should be reverted on sight. ~ Troy (talk) 02:23, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * That is fine I will debate why they should not be deleted on the talk page. I have no problem with that. Jccort (talk) 02:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It's alumnus. Alumni is plural. Do they not teach you anything at University these days? SimonTrew (talk) 18:36, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Ouch! That's an ad hominem comment if ever I saw one... – ukexpat Latin nerd comment (talk) 18:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm rigid, yet flexible (and recyclable!), so I'm aluminum. ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 18:47, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm English, therefore am aluminium. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:21, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm English and ancient, therefore aluminum. Ironholds (talk) 13:22, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Scpmarlins

 * Look the fact is User:Scpmarlins only decided to nominate to delete the UF/FSU Greek Life articles after another poster nominated the deletion of Greek Life at the University of Central Florida. The poster also started the Wikiproject University of Central Florida, and copied wikiproject UF and wikiproject FSU to a tee. Also the posters has not done a mass purge of Greek Life articles on Wikipedia (you only nominated 3 total). Scpmarlins specifically targeted UF & FSU. Also the posters is in fact guilty of deleting the nomination for deletion for the UCF Greek Life article, and then tried to cover it up on the poster's talk page.Jccort (talk) 02:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I did in fact nominate the Greek Life articles only after the UCF article was nominated. I will not debate that. Yet FSU and UF were not singled out, 4 were nominated for deletion. As well I never deleted the "AfD" tag on the Greek Life at the University of Central Florida page (As you can see for yourself). I argued my point on the pages article for deletion page as is policy. The part, as you mention, that was deleted was the notification on my talk page. As per the WikiProject, I have edited the page, on my own time, so that it is no longer like UF or FSU's. --Scpmarlins (talk) 02:53, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This dispute does not belong at ANI. It's shameful that Americans would act like the nationalist boneheads who make editing miserable at Balkan and Middle East articles, but if you insist on this sort of bickering, do it at the AfDs. Looie496 (talk) 03:08, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Complaint Against User:Tanthalas39 for Abuse of Admin Authority
This is a formal complaint against admin User:Tanthalas39.

Tan and I were engaged in a discussion in this thread, in which Tan digressed the original complaint by User:Nefer Tweety to a discussion about "Congress" and "Freedom of Speech". Other users chipped in with their own jargon; what appeared to be "insider jokes" using Wikipedia coined terms such as "ducks", which they did not link to their respective pages. When I tried to steer the discussion back to the original complaint, Tan issued a vague, unitelligible "warning" in the same thread of discussion in which he was personally involved. A couple of minutes later, Tan blocked my account for 72 hours.

Tan's "warning," "AC, knock off the disruption here. This constitutes an only warning," was ambiguous, written in informal English, and not understood by me. Before I had the chance to ask for clarification, Tan had already blocked my account, obviously to stifle further response from me to the discussion in which he was participating, so as to not oppose his oppinion. Tan did not place a formally written warning on my Talk page with proper links to the alleged violation, Disruptive editing. In fact, when Tan finally placed a block on my Talk page, within minutes of his unintelligible "warning" within the thread on this page, he claimed that I had been blocked for Vandalism. I had no idea what "disruptive editing" was, and Tan provided no link to that page or offer me a chance to inquire about it. I certainly had not vandalised any articles or other pages. I have since reviewed the pages related to Disruptive Editing and Vandalism and have found that my responses within the thread in reference were very far from either violation. In any case, I have served the 72-hour block period and the case is now agaisnt Tan for abuse of administrative privileges.

This is clearly a case of abuse of administrative authority due to Conflict of Interest (COI) and not following proper, |official Wikipedia warning guidelines. It was, in fact, Tan and the other users who were engaged in disruptive editing by digressing the discussion to matters unrelated to the original complaint and engaging in insider jokes. Tan should have asked for an uninterested admin to review the thread and issue a proper warning, if necessary, to the offending parties, since he had already been party to the discussion in the thread.

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 08:25, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The warning looked perfectly unambiguous and fine to me. By the way, did you read the top of the page where it states "For incidents involving the possible misuse of administrative powers, please attempt to engage in discussions with the admin before posting here."?  Trying to get back at someone after a block never ends well... ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 08:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Can I just note that the person making "insider jokes" was not Tan. The related essay is at WP:DUCK, which isn't too difficult to locate.  Furthermore, using bold text does not make your point any more convincing and this reads like a retaliation more than a complaint. <font style="color:#9999CC;">weburiedour<font style="color:#99CC99;">drama  <font style="color:#000099;">inthegarden  09:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I let Tan know this conversation is taking place. <font color="Navy">Law <font color="Navy">type! <font color="Navy">snype? 09:19, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * (I'll put money down that Tan won't even need to reply) ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 09:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way - "This constitutes an only warning" is in no way "ambiguous". <font style="color:#9999CC;">weburiedour<font style="color:#99CC99;">drama  <font style="color:#000099;">inthegarden  09:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Even if you didn't understand "knock off" in this connection (the only term, I would think, that could be considered informal), at least the words "warning" and "disruptive" should have attracted your attention. Instead however of asking what User:Tanthalas39 had meant exactly or to reconsider your approach here, you kept your manner of expression - therefore I see absolutely no need for you to agitate yourself about the block. By the way I'm sure that by reading Disruptive editing, you have crossed also Refusal to 'get the point'.  Phoe  talk  09:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You've come to the wrong place. ANI is thoroughly hostile to everyone.  New users get bitten (hard), experience users are trashed, editors bicker, a few editors throw insults that'd get others blocked PDQ.  'abandon hope' etc.  There are still a couple of things you can't do on ANI - Biography of Living Persons would be enforced, and you couldn't directly call another editor a useless fucking cunt (although thinking about it, there's possibly a few situations where you'd get away with it).  The thread you link to is unfortunate - many people continue to accuse you of being a sock when you're complaining that people are calling you a sock.


 * PERHAPS someone might help you with a technical process where you can demonstrate that you're not a sock account?


 * Perhaps you can explain why you did not understand the warning? It seems clear to me.  Were you expecting a series of templates?  If I was to assume ad faith I could say it feels as if you were going to push edits through an escalating series of warnings, stopping when you got a final warning. As others have said - you really aren't going to be happy at the outcome of this thread. 87.113.86.207 (talk) 10:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Phoe, On reading Disruptive editing and even Refusal to 'get the point', they seem to refer to the editing of Wikipedia articles, not discussions on a page like this one. But, this is besides the point of this complaint.
 * 87.113.86.207, I did not understand the warning because I did not know that "knock off the disruption here" was in reference to a "coined" Wikipedia violation, Disruptive editing that has a formal definition. I did not understand the warning because Tan did not give me the chance to ask him to elaborate; the block came exactly 2 minutes after my response, which edit-conflicted with his "warning".  I did not understand the warning, because Tan had not identified himself as an admin earlier on in the discussion or while issuing the warning; anyone could have written that statement without having any authority to block, and it is clear that users bicker here all the time.  I did not understand the warning because it was not placed on my Talk page with a proper link to the alleged violation of which I was being warned.  I did not understand the warning because Tan had been sarcastically involved in the discussion prior to issuing the "warning".  How could he turn around and issue a warning just to enforce his point of view?
 * I've had two respected admins write to me in private indicating that my complaint is indeed legitimate and that Tan may have very well abused his authority on the grounds that I listed. I'd rather they posted on this page at their own convenience.
 * It is clear that people here are again digressing from the main complaint. This thread is NOT about whether I deserved the warning, or even whether the warning was ambiguous.  I have already served the 72-hour block duration.  The issue here is about whether Tan abused his admin authority in issuing the warning through: (a) conflict of interest (he was engaged in the discussion and issued the warning to enforce his opinion, and never identified himself as an admin in the midst of "insider jokers"); (b) not requesting an uninvolved admin to review the thread and have that admin issue a proper warning and/or block, where necessary; and (c) not following formal warning guidelines by placing the warning with a link to the respective alleged violation on my Talk page and allowing me enough time to view and comprehend it.
 * --Arab Cowboy (talk) 10:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * ANY editor on Wikipedia can give you a warning that is just as valid as any admin's warning, based on the circumstances. Tan does not need to identify as an admin to make it valid.  ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 10:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well that and it's a simple click on "Tan" to see the admin symbol on his userpage. <font style="color:#006600;"> GARDEN <font style="background:#006600;color:white;"> says no to drama  10:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * In either case, since Tan had been involved in the discussion, it was only appropriate for a third party to issue the block. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 11:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really. Most other admins would have had the same stance as he.  <font style="color:#333333;"> GARDEN <font style="background:#333333;color:white;"> says no to drama  11:04, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This is not true. See, for example, comments by admin Graeme Bartlett on this page.  --Arab Cowboy (talk) 11:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait, so, basically you wanted him to find a lenient admin? That sounds fair... <font style="color:#000000;"> GARDEN <font style="background:#000000;color:white;"> says no to drama  11:14, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I wanted to find a fair and wise one. I never asked for leniency.  --Arab Cowboy (talk) 11:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

As much as I hate to see ANI turned into some kind of "court" (except for maybe beach volleyball), Arab Cowboy will need to provide evidence in the form of diffs. You're asking us to go back more than 3 days to hunt down a situation - not going to happen. More than half of your original post has already been determined to be fine, so let's narrow it down to prove that some form of policy violation occurred. Indeed, if there was a technical problem with the block, it should have been entered during your unblock requests. ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 11:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The thread is still at the top of this page. I have been unfairly blocked for 3 days, so I could not post any earlier.  --Arab Cowboy (talk) 11:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Frankly this doesn't read well from the start. ArabCowboy doesn't start well when he misrepresents the situation (Tan warned him then a couple of minutes later issued a block? Tan warned him at quarter past, he then continued alng the disruptive vein at 20 past and after that was blocked). It appears Tan typo'd in the warning (or used a very odd form of local grammar) but it is far easier to understand than some of our English as a Secondary Language users' normal typing style so I can't see it as being unreasonable for ArabCowboy to be expected to understand it. The accusation of CoI presumes that Tan was in conflict with ArabCowboy. He wasn't that I can see. If we ban admin from dealing with any situation that arises in a thread or page on which they have commented, we have made these noticeboards rather pointless. -- Narson ~  Talk  • 12:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "...knock off the disruption" might be regional to the US; it wasn't a typo and it means "stop" here. Beyond that, I have no comment. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  13:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I was more referring to 'This constitutes an only warning'. 'Constitutes your only warning' would perhaps have been clearer or 'constitutes a final warning'. Somehow 'This constitutes an only warning' just jars a little. It is completely understandable either way though so as I say, I see it as a bit of a red herring. If someone can't understand that level of English, they perhaps should be looking to contribute on their native language wiki or perhaps should be less proactive in assuming the fault of others. -- Narson ~  Talk  • 13:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I see no reason for the drama-fest to continue. Arab, you began with a misrepresented rant against Tan, and offered up false pretenses for the rationale that you were blocked with. His block was fair and it was a block that other administrators would and should have made. With that, I certainly endorse the block length. What pressing administrator intervention is needed here? None that I can see. <font color="#CC0000">seicer | <font color="#669900">talk  | <font color="#669900">contribs  13:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Discussion closed. --Jayron32. talk . say no to drama  13:24, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Repeated false Accusations and Insults by User Supreme Deliciousness (SD)
Ever since I became an editor on Wikipedia, User Supreme Deliciousness has been falsely accusing me of being a sockpuppet of another user, Arab Cowboy. SD has even made a formal request for investigation, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Arab_Cowboy, the conclusion of which has shown that Arab Cowboy and me are unrelated editors. Yet, SD has continued to make these false accusations and to call AC and me liars on this Talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Asmahan#Identity_Section and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Asmahan#Sockpuppetry_Allegations. SD’s false accusations and insults are not acceptable. He is stifling my freedom of expression and impeding my ability to freely contribute to Wikipedia. He should be reprimanded, blocked, or banned altogether. --Nefer Tweety (talk) 23:37, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That is not, in fact, what the SPI said. It said that there was not enough evidence to justify looking at your information. → ROUX   ₪  23:41, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict, as usual) While the US Congress may not make a law abridging your freedom of speech, Wikipedia can - a policy, that is. That said, I looked through the threads you linked to, and I can see no admin action necessary or even remotely warranted. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  23:42, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Tan, do we take your response to mean that SD's false allegations and insults to be acceptable behavior on Wikipedia? Shall we start calling each other "liars" and other names?  What kind of civilized discourse would that leave us?  --Arab Cowboy (talk) 23:54, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I hear the voice of the duck, calling "Plaxico!" Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 00:16, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Nothing has shown that you two are related or unrelated yet, just that there is currently insufficient evidence to warrant CheckUser. MuZemike 00:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I am still waiting for some replies: do we take your response to mean that SD's false allegations and insults to be acceptable behavior on Wikipedia? Shall we start calling each other "liars" and other names?  What kind of civilized discourse would that leave us?
 * The burden of proof that Nefer Tweety is my sockpuppet is upon SD, and if he has "insufficient evidence" to support this accusation, then he should be reprimanded for making it, especially that he has already done so through a formal route. And to start calling NT and myself "liars" will open the door to a very different kind of dialogue on Wiki pages.
 * Tan has stated that Wikipedia can stifle a user's freedom of expression by policy. What kind of violation has NT or myself committed to warrant that action?  --Arab Cowboy (talk) 04:47, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Were I an admin, you and Nefer would have been blocked some time ago for the sheer obviousness of the fact that you are either sockpuppets or meatpuppets. Perhaps it's a good thing I'm not. → ROUX   ₪  04:53, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Roux, obviously, it's a good thing that you are not. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 04:56, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * There is no such thing as "freedom of speech" here. There is no constitutional right to edit wikipedia. Maybe you should just focus on good editing, and leave the personal stuff alone? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 04:54, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The "logic" of some of the users here is pathetic. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 05:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * From where are you getting the idea that there is "freedom of speech" here? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 05:06, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Forget the constitution if you so desire, but to intimidate users through allegations of sockpuppetry and lying is not the sign of civilized behavior. If you find that to be an acceptable norm, then so be it, but from the way the answers have been coming here, it's more like a madhouse than a place to have an intelligent discourse.  --Arab Cowboy (talk) 05:10, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "Forget the constitution" is a red herring. How do you figure the constitution comes into play here? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 05:11, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

AC, knock off the disruption here. This constitutes an only warning. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  05:15, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly, it doesn't. It wasn't I who brought the constitution into play here.  It was Tan who brought up Congress and the Constitution in the first place, and diverted attention from the real issue.  On your user page, you state, "Wikipedia is a community, not a crazy den of pigs!", yet you have shown it to be exactly the latter. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 05:20, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Blocked for 72 hours. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  05:23, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Easy folks! I am not AC, I have no idea who this person is! Honestly, it is kinda funny to see that some users still think we are the same, even though I tried to clarify it!!! Is there a way I can prove it, as obviously what I keep repeating isn't of much value :( --Nefer Tweety (talk) 06:53, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * With edits so close together, this would be a good time for a checkuser to take another look at these two redlinks and see if there is any additional evidence tying them together. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * There was a sock investigation, but it was declined due to lack of evidence. How does one go about reopening it? &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 13:02, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, now Nefer Tweety is on AC's talk page, offering help. And there's the usual calling for "thorough investigations" into my "abuse of power". Meanwhile, a second unblock request is pending - anyone want to tackle it? <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  14:00, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * They are acting, at the very least, as meatpuppets. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 14:10, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It wasn't a second unblock request: this individual didn't like my decline & removed it. (And he & Roux edit-warred over this for a short while.) For that reason, I've gone ahead & protected his talk page for the remainder of his 72-hour block. Since an uninvolved Admin might consider this a conflict of interest, review of my acts welcomed -- & I'm stepping away from this matter unless further developments require my input. -- llywrch (talk) 16:04, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The version you just recently reverted - this one - seemed to have both the request you declined and a new, second unblock request. As far as I see, he does have the right to an appeal of your decline. Perhaps reconsider? Or am I missing something? <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  16:07, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well no, I am. A nearlier version here had him deleting the decline, & the following comments to AC & Roux's reverts convinced me that they were edit warring over this template. He does have the right to appeal my decline; I never meant to imply otherwise. I'm reverting my change & the protection -- & won't intervene again. -- llywrch (talk) 21:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You might want to leave a note on his talk page explaining the situation. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  21:14, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I left an apology. Does that work? -- llywrch (talk) 04:32, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, sure. It was clearly a mistake on your part; I was just suggesting that you leave an adequate explanation of the block on his page. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  04:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * In User_talk:Arab_Cowboy, what Jpgordon and Nsaum75 said.--Caspian blue 03:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, regardless of whether a CheckUser confirms that they are related or not, it is somewhat suspicious that Arab Cowboy first edited on June 25th. Only a week later, Tweety first edited July 2nd. My logic on this one may be a little tainted somehow, but the fact remains, they are both VERY NEW editors who's first edits were only A WEEK apart.-- The LegendarySky Attacker 04:03, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Sudden soaring interest in Asmahan by presumably new users, possibly NT included, is the conclusion of a 30-episode series on her life on Egyptian public television. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 07:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe you are right, but as far as I've known Supreme Deliciousness' way of speaking is quite disruptive and hostile, and he has carries out strong agendas to the article in question and other Arabic related articles such as Talk:Hummus by repeatedly asserting of "Israeli culture theft" and making relentless attacks to people who disagree with him. Therefore, I think the original complaint seems legitimate but everyone steered the main point with wrong ways.--Caspian blue 04:15, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Caspian blue, no one looked at the main complaint in reference because these "admins" have their own personal agendas. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 07:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's generally considered a really bad idea to come off a block and have your first edit be accusing admins of having personal agendas. I'd advise against it. → ROUX   ₪  07:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Including accusing others of meatpuppetry in retaliation. MuZemike 17:17, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Sockpuppetry Investigation Conclusions

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 10:10, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Continued personal attacks by User:Valkyrie Red


User has been continuously making personal attacks at other editors and refuses to act in a civil manner. See comments made, in response to informing him about violating 3RR  and  (in which I have also informed another user that is on 3RR, User:Kung Fu Man, see ). User has also been engaging in slight incivility at Articles for deletion/Runescape Riots. MuZemike 02:31, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The diffs aren't really personal attacks in the strictest sense of the phrase, but still. I note that you haven't brought this thread to the users attention (which should probably be done) and I don't see any kind of warning for his comments, only the edit-warring. Sorry to play devil's advocate. Ironholds (talk) 06:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * WP:WQA is the first step if one-to-one communication is unsuccessful. ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 08:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Haven't seen anything pop up since. Hope I didn't scare him off. Just needs some direction. MuZemike 15:49, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Woohookitty: vandal or administrator or both?
committed what appears to me be to an act of vandalism by redirecting two references to "Republican" to the Liberal Republican Party (United States). One (at Republican) should have remained at Republican Party, the other (at Subprime mortgage crisis solutions debate) should have been directed to Republican Party (United States) (a quite different political party). JRSpriggs (talk) 03:52, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you even try to start a conversation with this user? ANI is not the place you first run to when you have a question about somebody's editing.  The first place you go is that person.  Ask politely on their page, and they will likely answer you.  It is seriously jumping the gun to come to ANI for something like this... --Jayron32. talk . say no to drama  04:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The point is that these two edits are such that (unless he was blind drunk) he would have to have known that they were wrong. And on his user page, he claims that he is an administrator (confirmed by the fact that he blocked and unblocked himself), thus someone who should know better. JRSpriggs (talk) 05:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry? Speaking as a Brit, I (on the face of it) don't know which setup would be correct. I'm perfectly sober (it's 7am, my drinking doesn't start until 9). There's no need to cry vandalism; please read what vandalism is defined as and the need to assume good faith with others edits. Being an administrator means that the community trusts you, not that you're some Oracle of Delphi for content issues, and administrator status isn't something to be used as ammunition. I'll echo Jay above - discuss it with the editor. Read the disclaimer at the top: "Frivolous complaints and unsubstantiated requests for administrator intervention do not belong here. Please do not clutter this page with accusations or side-discussions within a discussion. Before posting a grievance about a user here, it is advised that you discuss the issue with them on their user talk page." Ironholds (talk) 06:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Next time, please alert me when you post about me on AN/I. Secondly, it's called a mistake. :) It happens. If you look at the Disam Challenge page, I have fixed nearly 5,000 disam links just from that page this month. So mistakes are going to happen. If you look at just the day in question, I had several hundred fixes, 99% of which are correct. I'm not trying to trump my own horn here. I'm more just saying that out of that many edits, honest mistakes are going to happen. In this case, it was just a misclick. If you see those and feel like I'm seriously going down the wrong path, definitely let me know and I will correct myself (it's happened a couple of times where I simply was picking the wrong link). Otherwise, simply fix the links. Thanks. --User:Woohookitty Diamming fool! 07:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as my experience this kitty has fixed various disambiguation links which improved the articles. Not sure admin or not but hard working editor. Mistakes happen, try discussing with editors before posting to ANI which is a last resort. Kasaalan (talk) 16:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Problem re. the user log
Would someone else please take a look at what's going on? There's a problem on the user log which is circumventing the user creation log. If you have CU rights, please take an additional look at the creations in question. You'll see examples on the block log of some of what I've been dealing with. --PMDrive1061 (talk) 06:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, there is a way to create an account without creating an entry in the user account creation log. Yes, Grawp knows how do that.  I discussed this with Brion some time back, but the bug hasn't been fixed so far.  Dragons flight (talk) 10:36, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

PS: It's a Grawp attack and it's clear they're monitoring my edits and have been doing so all day long.--PMDrive1061 (talk) 06:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The accounts are coming from tor nodes, that are supposed to be blocked at the server level. Thatcher 14:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

AIV Backlog
AIV is in a slight backlog. If an admin could take a look, it would be appreciated. - <small style="border:1px solid #990000;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 16:31, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like it's been taken care of. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 16:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Spate of user page creations
Looking at the new user^page log just now, I noticed an odd pattern: a sudden burst (between 1721 and 1723) of very small user pages with almost identical edit summaries. From the looks of it, it's a bunch of students all simultaneously getting started with Wikipedia editing. Someone more experienced with classroom-assigned editing may wish to go over and greet/keep an eye on/advise them. --Calton | Talk 17:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Given the contents of new pages like User:NIH instructor for a day & User:Newlyon18, it looks like a bunch of scientists may be learning how to edit the 'pedia. I know the Society for Neuroscience has developed an effort over the past year to increase the presence of new expert editors, maybe this is an NIH-directed effort? I hope so...more scientists would be a great thing 'round these parts. &mdash; Scientizzle 17:55, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Follow-up: yep, I was right. NIH and Wikimedia Foundation Collaborate to Improve Online Health Information. &mdash; Scientizzle 17:56, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

SchnitzelMannGreek's mistake
SchnitzelMannGreek, a well known admin falsly accused me of vandalism a few weeks ago with this edit to my talk page. The only thing I did was redirect the article Summer Romance (Anti-Gravity Love Song) to its original album article S.C.I.E.N.C.E., i left him a message on his talk page about this and he ignored it and deleted it 2 days later without responding which really ticked me off because I didn't have an answer yet, can some admin please drop him the message about why he accused me of vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RandomGuy666 (talk • contribs) 17:51, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * A) He's not an admin. B) He didn't accuse you of anything.  He raised a question, which you appear to have answered.  No harm, no foul.  C) He read your message, and had nothing else to say.  The article currently redirects as you intended.  Seriously, there's no reason to come here to "force" someone to apologize because you perceive a slight.  Let it drop, and get on with other editing.  I have no idea why you are getting bent out of shape over a single incident 2 days ago.  --Jayron32. talk . say no to drama  18:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Without commenting on the incident itself: SchnitzelMannGreek is not an admin. The original removal is here, but it's not against the rules. - Jarry1250 [ humorous – discuss ] 18:15, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Robert Garside
A user at Robert Garside (possibly the subject, but I'm not sure) is removing content (notably criticism) and structure, and adding puff ("the runningman" after every mention of the subject's name). diff. Can someone step in here please? Rd232 talk 16:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * also constantly recreating variations of The runningman day. No response to my user talk page comment that I created Runningman Day as a redirect to Robert Garside. Rd232 talk 16:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Would an uninvolved administrator handle this please?
This deletion discussion is past its expiration, and should be closed. The article itself is getting worse and worse, and the problems with WP:BLP in the article are mounting by the moment it seems. The sooner it's deleted and salted, the better. Unitanode 17:35, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, someone was asking for it to be closed at the same time I was gaining a headache weighing up the discussion. Now closed; though given the strong feelings on both sides I suspect it's going to end up at DRV regardless of what decision was made. Cheers ~ mazca  talk 18:43, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * (now at DRV, for anyone stalkin'.) ~ mazca  talk 19:19, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Now one user is attempting to have "AFD 2" at the DRV, which is certainly not the point of DRV. Unitanode  20:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Canvassing and lack of good faith from User:Gregbard
This user has notified WikiProjects on Rational Skepticism, Philosophy and Atheism about Articles for deletion/Christian violence: 1, 2, 3. By itself, this isn't a problem, though it's odd it never occurred to him to notify, say, WikiProject Catholicism, WikiProject Christianity, and so on - you'd think they'd have something to say about a Christianity-related AfD. No, the problem lies in the wording of the message: "I am pretty sure the proposal is another religiously motivated one. We could use some rational input..." This breaches the "campaigning" section of WP:CANVASS: "Campaigning is an attempt to sway the person reading the message, through the use of non-neutral tone, wording, or intent". It also demonstrates a clear lack of good faith: nowhere at the AfD did I (the nominator) or any "delete" voter express religious-based reasoning for deletion. Every deletion rationale is firmly grounded in policy. His language even skirts the "comment on content, not on the contributor" injunction of WP:NPA, and the implication that religious participants are "non-rational" is equally an attack.

At the AfD itself, Gregbard's comments have been no less inflammatory. See here and here for particularly egregious remarks. It's fine to disagree with a nomination, but it's not acceptable to call a nomination the "insane" "work of Christian apologists". - Biruitorul Talk 19:39, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Revert move of Jewish lobby, done without discussion?
The name was moved to Jewish American lobby without discussion, and despite the fact that the article is tagged with “discretionary sanctions imposed at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles” because of past controversies. Could someone move it back until proper discussion occurs? Thanks. CarolMooreDC (talk) 03:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I moved it back. I don't know that the Arbcom case stuff directly applies - this wasn't a revert, just an overly BOLD move without discussion.  Can you please notify User:Historicist about this thread and ask that they take any further proposal to article talk?  Also, see Administrators'_noticeboard/Geopolitical_ethnic_and_religious_conflicts.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I am about to go home (finally) because the process crashed (sigh), so I don't want to do anything myself at this time, but if we can get an active awake admin to take a look at and their recent contributions, the AN thread, etc.  I am concerned.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:03, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It was obviously a mistake so I don't think action needs to be taken. He was the principal editor of the Anti-Israel lobby and there was discussion about merging into another article. Perhaps this has something to do with it? Anyways, discussion has been pretty heated and Carol posted some not-so-friendly opinions at one of Historicist's article's. Just an FYI. Wikifan12345 (talk) 07:47, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I confess, pointing out an editor has improperly moved two articles and supporting deletion of that editor's new POV WP:Attack page could be seen as "unfriendly." CarolMooreDC (talk) 12:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This was before that Carol. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Gross image copyright violation
Can somebody explain why pantsdd hasn't been blocked? They have uploaded over 25 images from Flickr that were all rights reserved. They got round this by adding a false OTRS number to all the images, so this was no silly mistake, this was a calculated fraud. It's exactly this kind of sly image copyright abuse that should be clamped down on hard. <b style="color:green;">Polly</b> (<b style="color:red;">Parrot</b>) 02:16, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not a false OTRS ticket - there's a real ticket there, in permissions queue, for about 40 images from a professional photographer that they appear to have legitimately released. However, it does not appear to be that this user was uploading those 40 images or other images from that photographer.  Misused OTRS ticket number, rather than falsified.
 * I will go have a talk with the user... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:35, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Reviewed, and I have preventively indef blocked (unacceptable volume of copyvios, misuse of OTRS ticket number) until they explain themselves on their talk page. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, by false number I meant falsely applied to those images. Thanks for reviewing the situation George. <b style="color:green;">Polly</b> (<b style="color:red;">Parrot</b>) 02:48, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

IP overtly declares an edit war
This diff, combined with the list of contribs from this IP, and evidence of sockpuppetry that I've listed at Talk:Late Show with David Letterman, should probably be dealt with quickly. I've been pushed to the edge of 3RR by these two (the IP and User:Datacharge, who I'm not convinced are even two distinct people, per my evidence at the talkpage), and with the edit summary declaration, a block is certainly in order for the IP, I would think. I've tried my best to stay civil with them, but Datacharge even had the gall to accuse me of being a sock of Benji, who, ironically enough, I have had several disagreements with in the past. Anyway, I'm at my wit's end, and greatly needing a good night's sleep. Unitanode 04:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think getting more editors on this article is an excellent idea. This argument has gone on far to long, and neither side is budging.  I hope one way or another we can bring this discussion to a conclusion.Datacharge (talk) 05:07, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As I firmly believe, based on evidence posted at the talkpage, that you are logging out and editing through an IP to edit war, I think you're part of the problem, not the solution. Civil POV-pushing is still unacceptable. And logging out to edit war (and declaring it in the edit summary) is even less acceptable. Unitanode  05:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not 76.26.71.32. What (s)he is doing is unacceptable.  My complaints about what is going on in that article and your conduct are well documented in the talk page for any interested editors, so I will not repeat them here.  More editors will just have to look at what is happening and come to their own conclusions, hopefully then this can be resolved.Datacharge (talk) 05:17, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've left some notes on the article's talk page regarding checkuser. If problems persist, it might be wise to hardblock the IP in question. – <font color="#28f">Luna Santin (talk) 05:55, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hopefully, they don't hold this article hostage until someone lifts the full-protection from it. MuZemike 06:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Commons admin required
Handled. <font face="Verdana"> Durova 279 14:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC) Can someone who is an administrator at Commons please protect this image as it is about to go to the front page. Thanks. Gatoclass (talk) 05:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like BorgQueen took care of it. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  05:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * So she did. Thanks :) Gatoclass (talk) 06:11, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Problem user 124.158.3x.* attacking pages.
I've noted that there is a IP-hopping vandal who has been attacking several user and user talk pages, including mine. Here are the list of IPs that attacked my talk page alone during the last six months:



And it's not just me, as the vandal has also regularly attacked some, if not all of, the following editors' user and talk pages as well:



I don't have any connections with these users and I don't usually edit the pages they edit, so I don't know why this vandal decided to put my name on his list.

Any kind of help against this vandal is surely welcome as this guy giving me some inconvenience on my talk page. (In fact, this guy attacks, although under different usernames and addresses, are the reason my user page is semi-protected; I'd tried to have my user talk page semi-protected as well, but my request was refused.) - 上村七美 (Nanami-chan) | talkback | contribs 09:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've given a long block, as it has been a repeat abuse vector; looking into the possibility of further responses. Looking at the 124.158.32.0/23 range, it looks like this has been going on for quite some time, unfortunately. – <font color="#28f">Luna Santin  (talk) 10:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * How about ? That IP's currently blocked for 31 hours. - 上村七美 (Nanami-chan) | talkback | contribs 10:24, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The bulk of addresses on this range -- with the notable and confusing exception of the one I blocked -- seem to be dynamic, and therefore unlikely to be used by a single user over a prolonged period. Bearing in mind that I could be wrong, a longer block on a dynamic IP doesn't accomplish anything if the vandal has moved on to another IP by the time the block expires. If you've ever wondered why vandals on IPs seem to get counter-intuitively short blocks, at times, that has a lot to do with it. :) If they come back on that IP, though, I'd certainly bring down the thunder. – <font color="#28f">Luna Santin (talk) 10:30, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I see your point there because, according to my talk page's history, it seems the same guy has also vandalized my user and talk pages (and possibly the others) last year under the following: - 上村七美 (Nanami-chan) | talkback | contribs 10:39, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

State-sponsored terrorism
Could a strong-willed admin please lay down the law over this section. A relatively new Pakistani editor has been trying to expand this section. Some of the text he has written is POV and has had to be toned down, but this is no excuse for the several experienced Indian editors rerpeatedly gutting the section. is one of the more outrageous edits where "revert unRS" is used as an excess a range to remove material not only multiply sourced, but excessively so (up to eight references for one point). Pakistani sources will usually push pro-Pak lines, but the likes of the Indo-Asian News Service are among the babies being thrown out with that bathwater.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:47, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

User:72.228.4.52
Could somebody take a look at 's Talk page? It's full of bot warnings about improper external links, but they keep using them anyway. They are also repeatedly removing the nowiki tags from User:Lalacourtney/The hicks which are being used to keep the categories out of User space, despite multiple warnings. I was about to warn them for a third time about removing the nowikis, but with the daunting Talk page, I don't see any point. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:00, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Hello? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 16:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * This anon's relatively new; his first contribution was just a couple of months ago. Also, there's been no other contributions from the anon since 23:30, 15 July 2009. I also don't see any final warning on the talk page. I think you should try using a final warning - one which specifies what is likely to happen if there is no change in his linking (aka an editing restriction, most likely in the form of a block). If there's still no change, even after the final warning, then please come back here. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I figured the extensive blocks of text with multiple warnings were sufficient. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * As a matter of fact, they just repeated their disruptive edit two hours ago. I've issued a final warning, just to make sure all of the bureaucratic dots and tittles are covered.  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Is this the same editor? The behaviour certainly suggests it. --Cameron Scott (talk) 15:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably, though it's impossible to say, they have, however, now completely removed the categories from the User space article, so all seems right now. With that.  Lalalacourtney, however, has now re-added The Hicks to the The Suburbs (web series) article, claiming, as did several people in the deletion discussion, on the now-deleted articles' Talk pages, and as did the anon, that somehow The Hicks is just as important as The Suburbs.  I've issued Lalalacourtney a level 4 vandalism warning.  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 22:07, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Complaint Against User:JD because of vandalism in Annemarie Eilfeld
Hi, yesterday I was blocked for some hours, because I reverted a notorious German vandal, who is an admin in de too. I have my own thoughts about his motivation, but the fact is that he has a special meaning about pop idol contestant Annemarie Eilfeld, which he executes as an admin in de. And he tries this now in the same matter in en. For a quick review you need only two eyes and no knowledge of the German language.(as Tanthalas:(Protected Annemarie Eilfeld: persistent unsourced additions/speculation/external links)
 * This is my talk site of yesterday, after being blocked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:79.194.88.93 (with some links)
 * This is the history http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Annemarie_Eilfeld&action=history (User:Buchweizen is a delegate of a German fan site, with a strong intention, how wikipedia should present Annemarie Eilfeld (JD has stated that we are one person, but that's too ridiculous to comment that. Perhaps he will present his proofs. I am really curious)
 * This is JD' talk site in en: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:JD#July_2009
 * It might be a good idea that at least one of the readers speaks a little German 79.194.84.244 (talk) 14:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Just on the face of it, an IP calling an admin on another project a "notorious vandal" doesn't seem to require much investigation. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:53, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I looked at the history of this article, & for the life of me I can't figure out what the dispute is about. At most, there appears to be a dispute over whether one Tom Saenger of RTL played a part in her selection on DSdS -- which could be settled by supplying a source. BTW, I seriously doubt anyone with the Admin bit is a "vandal" -- maybe someone who emphatically disagrees with you. If any editor goes around inserting nonsense into articles or blanking them, that person will lose Administrator rights rather quickly. -- llywrch (talk) 16:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I get the feeling that the IP editor does not like the fact that JD keeps removing material that they keep adding - it led to a 3RR warning on JD. It is a content dispute, and may need WP:3O.   The IP editor also doesn't understand the meaning of "vandal". ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 16:54, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * This all started here on en.wikipedia when I, while I was on recent changes patrol, noticed JD using edit summaries in German while removing content from the article. A couple days later I noticed the article was going through an edit war between some IPs, JD, and User:Buchweizen, and posted to WP:BLPN, causing Tan to step in and semi-protect the article.


 * Between 14:45 on the 12th and 12:52 on the 15th, JD has performed 11 reverts. He has also ordered Buchweizen to stop annoying me, and has used WP:COI as a reason to tell Buchweizen to stop editing .  As noted, he has been warned for 3RR, and he's also been warned for using German in edit summaries and on talk pages.


 * Regardless of whether he was "right" or not, I feel that there are some serious problems with JD's conduct heretofore, and that regardless of the IP's misunderstandings, they should be addressed. McJeff (talk) 18:14, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * oh, so there are "serious problems with my conduct heretofore"... let's say "my conduct towards somebody bothering since weeks on de.wp already, someone who is calling me and other users vandals, someone who is talking about us "fakers" all the time, someone who..." - the same holds true to earlier contribs of user:buchweizen on de.wp: "wannabe insider", "wikipedia means 'anti annemarie board' for JD",...
 * i've given my point of view many times now, i think. this edit-war has its beginning @de.wp where, for example, the IP already had revert wars with other users; later, user:buchweizen came up from the official bulletin board and being rude many times for which he got warnings; now exactly the same arguments occur on en.wp. it's obvious - at least to me - that i am not the nice guy then who behaves like he has first contact with some new editor here. even if i surpassed 3RR one has to have a look at the edits by the IP which often even had wrong edit summaries to camouflage the real purpose (repaired broken link + sources, +, ++, that's the best link you can get. The Germans name it de:Geständnis (the given information can not not be sourced with this link), reflink and more => see external links that got added over and over again without any discussion; on de.wp these external links got discussed widely already).
 * i won't get back to this diskussion again as it's making me upset. so drive back the article protection and let's see what's the outcome. fancruft galore! and i'm pretty sure nobody else will have a closer look at this 'cause eilfeld ain't the most known person out there up to now. --JD {æ} 20:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Note that JD and Buchweizen are edit warring on the article on the German Wikipedia. I can't read the German, but it looks like they're using automatic tools to revert each other. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:26, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * are you joking!? where the heck is there an edit war on de.wp? what brings you to the conclusion that there are any kind of revert bots active? --JD {æ} 20:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I never said there were any revert bots, but automatisch gesichtet looks like an automatic tool to me, though I'm not clear what "gesichtet" means. Babelfish says "sighted", which doesn't sound right.  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:56, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * you said (1) that there is a edit war going on. it is not. you said (2) "it looks like they're using automatic tools to revert each other" which means to me some kind of revert bot. the answer to this "problem" is Flagged revisions/Sighted versions; on de.wp this feature is rolled out since months and gesichtet really means "sighted". --JD {æ} 21:03, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * What gives people the idea that there are revert bots active? Well, judging by the history of de.wikipedia's Annemarie Eilfeld article, there are dozens of edits marked "automatisch".  McJeff (talk) 20:55, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * sorry, i really don't get the point: what do you see? can you give an exact link to it? a screenshot? ...? --JD {æ} 20:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC) see above.


 * By the way, I have notified Buchweizen of this discussion since no one has yet. McJeff (talk) 20:55, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * .....(repaired broken link + sources, +, ++, that's the best link you can get. The Germans name it de:Geständnis (the given information can not not be sourced with this link), reflink and more....
 * What the hell is wrong with these summeries? Some of them are direct answers to your deletions (you missed a reflink - I gave it to you!) + her performing list as every pop idol contestant has it in wikipedia world). And when I present the full quote of Tom Sänger (the creator of super-bitch Annemarie Eilfeld), it is even more impressive. It reads:
 * "„Bild“ hat es mit ihrer Kampagne für Annemarie Eilfeld allerdings versucht. Wie sehen Sie diese Aktion?
 * Das kann "Bild" gerne versuchen. Dem stelle ich mich gerne und es ist mir auch Recht. Es gab aber keinen Kooperationsvertrag, wie uns immer wieder unterstellt wird. Eine gemeinsame Entwicklung der Themen mit anderen Medien gibt es nicht. Ich möchte allein für die Sendung inhaltlich verantwortlich sein und das auch bleiben. This is a de:Geständnis aka confession, nothing else.79.194.84.244 (talk) 21:22, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * what is wrong with the summaries...? well, you didn't repair a link, you didn't add new things but reverted older stuff, i didn't miss any reflink,...
 * your quote says that tom sänger sees himself as the responsible man in the making of "DSDS" and that there is no contract whatsoever between "bild" and "DSDS". there ain't no word about pushing eilfeld into the "super-bitch" role. firstly, this labelling was given to her by other media and not "DSDS". secondly, it's still not tom sänger himself who was pushing her into this role. thirdly, you are calling it a "confession". => you are doing original research then. --JD {æ} 21:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Which media? I am very curious 79.194.84.244 (talk) 21:49, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * well, as i added it before here including ref-link: tagesspiegel, for example. --JD {æ} 21:53, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Lügen haben kurze Beine. Tagesspiegel doesn't state this, but the opposite: Annemarie Eilfeld wird aber nun nicht erneut als Superzicke inszeniert, heißt es bei GZSZ (=also RTL, also under the leadership of Tom Sänger) 79.194.84.244 (talk) 22:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * ehm...? you're mixing it all up. eilfeld IS not a "super-bitch" but she was pushed into some kind of ROLE. but the labelling itself as "super-bitch" came through other, reporting media. RTL never said "we gave her the role of the super-bitch". that would be hilarious, wouldn't it? and yes, GZST doesn't want her again in that role. the latter doesn't have anything to do with the role before nevertheless. --JD {æ} 22:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * OK. Eilfeld was pushed into this role by Tom Sänger. The first who stated, that Eilfeld is now a super-bitch was Gala, a print and website, from... ? Right, Bertelsmann, the mother of RTL. LOL 79.194.84.244 (talk) 22:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "LOL"??? interesting humor. i don't know what's the point here. she was NOT pushed into that role by tom sänger himself and i won't echo my reply @21:38 regarding this. moreover, you lack any source that "gala" called her this way as first media. it's nothing special that different organs of such a huge corporation like bertelsmann support each other. --JD {æ} 22:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's time now, that you bring a source for your statements. Normally you are only reverting. And please forget Tagesspiegel or similar manoevres. You may impress only non German speakers. And concerning Tom Sänger: Maybe one of his employees had the idea. But he is responsible and he wishes to be responible in future too. Good night. 79.194.84.244 (talk) 22:56, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * for which "statements" of mine do i still lack any sources?
 * why forget tagesspiegel? i used that text as reference, you wanted it to be in the article as external link, too.
 * i can't see any "manoevres" by me and unlike you i am not quoting any german stuff here, hoping that nobody will understand what is really meant.
 * "Tom Sänger ... is responsible and he wishes to be responible in future too" – sure. because sänger is responsible for RTL's whole entertainment stuff you want to reference to a interview by him and use this as source for the edit "Eilfeld ... was pushed by Tom Sänger ... into the role of a "super-bitch"". you gotta be joking. --JD {æ} 23:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Tagespiegel states the opposite of your claim! as " Eilfeld was created a bitch in DSDS, but not for the new show GZSZ" (Statement by GZSZ/RTL, given to Tagesspiegel)
 * I am tired about your de:Nebelkerzen . So, let's go back to ther roots:
 * What you have to say this obscene edit:
 * This is also fake: . I have asked the German admin, why he has locked the German Eilfeld article and I have explained to him the definition of edit war, (in any case: not my "edit-war"). This was his answer.: Zu dem Zeitpunkt der Sperre fand dort ein EW statt. Damit hier EOD. -- Nolispanmo. Comment: Not only DSDS reminds on the film The Truman Show, German wikipedia too. 79.194.85.57 (talk) 10:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * don't you get it or is it just that you don't want to get it? "Tagespiegel states the opposite of your claim"!? no, it states exactly what you just said here. it's the same as i explained above. putting her in a role: RTL. labelling that in some way (here: "super-bitch"): tagesspiegel and other media.
 * what should i say to this "obscene" edit? you even haven't told me yet what is your problem with that one.
 * i have no clue whatsoever you want to tell me/admins here with the second "fake" link. i had done exactly two edits (june, 8th & june, 17th) until the point of semi-protection (june, 30th). --JD {æ} 13:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 1. Tagesspiegel is only one of 30? 40? media, which describes that RTL has created a superbitch for the show. And who has created her and the other roles? That guy, who is responsible for the show. Got it?
 * 2."IPvandal/79.194.88.93.... see history of article. IP and unregistered users straight from fan bulletin board try to make the lemma look like they want it to"
 * Answer: The author, who brings the content, is the vandal? The vandal, who deletes the content, is able to find one one who blocks the author? No comment, except: obscene!
 * 3."and the lemma in de.wp is meanwhile also semi-protected because you did edits like this one over and over again...?
 * Answer: No, it's not semi-protected because of my edits, and there was no edit-war (according to the official wp.de-description: What is an edit war?) 79.194.85.57 (talk) 17:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * @1: the "bitchy" role was created by RTL. the labelling "super-bitch" came up in other media. by citing this labelling it is essential to give a source for this labelling. and the source is not tom sänger but some media calling her that. period.
 * @2: haha, yeah. content like the fantastic external links you tried to get back in the article like... 10 times?
 * @3: there was no edit-war? according to official de.wp description? eh? --JD {æ} 18:36, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * @3 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WAR 79.194.85.57 (talk) 20:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * @3 extra service: a puts a link in, b reverts it. c puts another link in, d reverts it. Where is the edit war? 79.194.85.57 (talk) 20:26, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * @2 These are the links you don't like:
 * http://beta.audiomagnet.com/audiomagnet/LaMie Annemarie Eilfeld & Lars Retkowitz (LaMie): Moon and Sun (the free video, after the other site is broken)
 * http://www.rs2.de/cgi-bin/WebObjects/rs2.woa/wa/CMSshow/3593703 audio interview with rs2,
 * http://www.super-illu.de/musik/Annemarie_Eilfeld_1223217.html DSDS: »Wir wurden bespuckt...Interview (in German language)]
 * No RTL/Bertelsmann propaganda, no bullshit. It's Eilfeld herself. That is RARE 79.194.85.57 (talk) 20:36, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * i won't comment on these external links any more. "super-illu"... wow, you have the nerve to really defend that stuff. i'm outta here. --JD {æ} 21:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I must say this topic is new to me, but I can confirm that JD is correct in noting that the statement 'Eilfeld ... was pushed by Tom Sänger ... into the role of a "super-bitch"' inserted by the IP was a wild extrapolation from what the source says. Note also that the German WP does not have the 3RR rule (instead an admin locks the article if there is an edit war); some of the editors here may have been unfamiliar with it.  JN 466  13:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * So, who do think has created the role of Annemarie Eilfeld? 79.194.85.57 (talk) 17:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid what you or I think is not that important here. What is important, though, is that we don't write into an article what we think, while claiming it was said by the source we cite. If you haven't done so already, please have a look at WP:V, which explains this in more detail. -- JN 466  18:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You can prove or just believe me, that I NEVER have molested an article with stuff which i think. I prefer the spurs of the alpha-guys in the web. Tom Sänger was successful in making DSDS6 the most successful German show of the year between May 2008 and May 2009. Before they were afraid, that Nr.6 will get too boring. So they changed the show from a song contest to a reality tv show. And they were lucky. But Eilfeld has still some problems after the show, because of this image. And she has a contract to be quiet. But she's testing the border of being quiet with some stories here, there and there. 79.194.85.57 (talk) 21:00, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * and all this has to do nothing with that "case". i'm smelling fancrufty thoughts near around. --JD {æ} 21:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * YEP, you even smelled Buchweizen in me. And you were successful as Tom Sänger 79.194.85.57 (talk) 22:10, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

New User Takes Issue With 3RR Warning
So...I'm just cruising along...minding my own business...when in the recent changes, I see this edit summary. It piqued my interest...so I clicked on the article history and saw that had made 14RR on the page. Pretty straightforward block...except I saw he was a brand new user and no one had given him a 3RR warning...so I do just that. Thinking it might be the end of it...I get this lovely message on my talk page. I re-explain to him that he is violating 3RR...and I explain that he is consistently re-adding copyrighted material onto the page. I thought that would clarify things further...and I was totally wrong. His response is some bizarre rant about how I did not contact him (which, of course, is how this whole thing started), threatens to report me and calls me a 12 year old. I notified him that the entire reason this started was by notifying him. And - with admitted snarkiness - asked if he was going to report me for not blocking him. He responds, logically, by again calling me a vandal and saying he has "reported" me. I asked if he wanted to continue with the personal attacks. Apparently, his answer was yes...and he's apparently threatened to have "1000 other fans" vandalize the page. Of course, I could protect it...considering I've never actually made an edit on it. So...twofold problem...I can't block the user straight up since I'm engaged in communication with him...and the second is...can we get some extra eyes on that page in case we need to protect...because, despite never touching it...I feel like I'd be accused of admin abuse if I did it. --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 18:25, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have left a stern but friendly note on his talk page asking him to disengage and review our policies on these issues. He has also been informed of the consequences of continuing.  Let's see where this goes from here.  --Jayron32. talk . say no to drama  18:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have even money on a Plaxico. --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 18:36, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, I suspect you are right, but new accounts are showing up to re-add the picture. I have rolled back to the non-copyvio problem one, and protected the page for a day as well. --Jayron32. talk . say no to drama  18:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have also left a note at commons Admin Noticeboard to let them know about the situation. --Jayron32. talk . say no to drama  18:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Deleted the copyright violations that Jayron reported. -- Kanonkas : <font style="color:#accC10;background:#0000fa;"> Talk 18:48, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I would have a bit of sympathy with him, although his attitude it a bit ott, but he is new. Can someone not trim the picture to only show his head, because until the new fans have a picture it will continue. (Off2riorob (talk) 18:52, 16 July 2009 (UTC))
 * There's an existing picture (albeit a poor quality one) in the article which is appropriately liscenced, see File:Stewart Downing Middlesbrough v. Chelsea 1.png. Per WP:IUP, we may not replace a free image with a copyright image merely for image quality or other such trivial matters.  If someone takes a new picture themselves, and releases it under a free-use lisence, then it may be valid to replace the current image.  However, it is never kosher to replace a free, properly lisenced image with a copyrighted one.  Also, one cannot merely crop or modify the existing image; such modifications still are based on a copyrigthed work, and the copyright protection carries to the cropped image.  So no, merely cutting his headshot out of the copyright image will not solve the problem. --Jayron32. talk . say no to drama  19:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Edit conflict. :Thanks. I get all that, I was suggesting croping the poor quality one that is there now to turn it into a headshot, removing the team colours until the new team come uo with a free photo. (Off2riorob (talk) 19:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC))
 * Sorry, I thought you were talking about cropping the other one. Yes, that may be a good idea then!  --Jayron32. talk . say no to drama  19:29, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course, someone might have picture of him at a Starbucks that they took on their digital camera, like the one on Chris Chelios. --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 19:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I think that you're all missing the core of the issue. Read this edit. Uncle G (talk) 01:23, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No one's missing it. It was a copyrighted image, which is why it was deleted. --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 13:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The fact that you're talking about copyright here indicates that you are, still, missing the core of the issue. Address the underlying problem, revealed in that edit, and the symptom, the edit war, will go away by itself.  Uncle G (talk) 14:28, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You do realize that the only thing I ever did to him was shoot him a 3RR warning...right? In all actuality...the picture and the content of said picture is irrelevant to his attitude. --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 16:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The edit war is caused by a misunderstanding of the image copyright policy. It's not his picture; evidenced by the fact that multiple accounts keep showing up to add it.  A new one just left a note on my talkpage overnight regarding this very issue.  If someone wants to take a new picture and upload it themselves, that would all be fine.  However, this specific picture is clearly incompatable with our image use policy.  I know the current picture is outdated, but is IS appropriately liscenced, and the IUP is clear; it is inapprorpriate to upload an updated, but copyright photo when a free one is availible.  --Jayron32. talk . say no to drama  17:02, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You do realize that the only thing I ever did to him was shoot him a 3RR warning...right? &mdash; That's the thing. The edit war and the copyright issue are all that have been the focus here, and all that anyone has ever said to this novice editor is about copyrights and mysterious "revert rules".  The editor, meanwhile, has a quite different perspective.  From xyr perspective, as can be seen by reading the aforementioned edit, the problem is that the article has a misleading picture on it, showing this person in the wrong team colours. See the issue from the perspective of the editor, who is focussed upon bringing article content up to date.  In particular see it from the perspective of a novice editor who didn't understand copyright policy, had never heard of a three-revert rule, and who merely saw other people repeatedly putting an incorrect picture back on the article.  And whilst you are doing so, remember how … ahem! &mdash; let's say … enthusiastic sports fans can become about team-related matters.  (I almost wrote "fanatical".  ☺) All that's really needed here is to tell the editor the right way to scratch xyr itch.  Tell xem that all that's required is for xem to take xyr own photograph of the player in the right team colours, now that the player has transferred, and to release that photograph under CC-BY-SA or the GFDL.  There are lots of boilerplated warnings about copyrights, revert rules, personal attacks, and so forth at User talk:Danwilson82 and User talk:Smashville, but no mention at all of how the editor can go about fixing the problem that xe sees.  To do so will eliminate the very grounds for the edit war in the first place.  You never know, xe might turn out to be capable of taking and providing a lot of free-content photographs of sports players.  But no-one has even hinted to xem that xe can even do that. See things through the novice's eyes.  Uncle G (talk) 18:36, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Where does it look at any point like the editor cared what I had to say? I left him a 3RR warning and he went on the offensive. --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 19:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with Smashville here. He left a boilerplate warning (where all of the WikiJargon is helpfully linked for explanation), & instead of responding with something along the lines of "I don't understand; please explain" -- or any other reasonable response, this person responds with "Hello, I have read the dispute resolution page and have decided to give you the benefit of the doubt on a situation." (I don't understand what "dispute resolution" has to do with "edit war", let alone "three-revert rule".) Then xe proceeds to accuse Smashville of edit-warring with xyr over this image. (Or maybe xe thinks Smashville is edit-warring with himself: note the commment, "I would like to kindly ask you to either put my picture back up or leave it removed.") Maybe this person doesn't realize that there are a number of people contributing to Wikipedia, just like xyr, but this would indicate a failure of comprehension of the other person's part; had Smashville responded "I didn't edit this page, I'm just warning you about this", maybe the other person wouldn't have understood that statement. Maybe if Smashville had suggested how xem could fix the problem, xyr would have responded "I don't have any other images, except for this one." I honestly don't know. But this interaction did go off the rails near the very beginning -- if not before -- & it doesn't appear to be getting back ontrack soon. -- llywrch (talk) 21:24, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Need assistance with personal attacks
Pedro : Chat  22:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC) Could I ask an uninvolved admin to look at these comments from Giano and decide whether they're personal attacks that need to be removed?  Many thanks, SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 20:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah. I think the 2nd and 3rd one are pretty personal. <font color="Navy">Law <font color="Navy">type! <font color="Navy">snype? 20:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It has been well and publicly established that the editor in question's judgement has been demonstrated to be flawed. Wiser editors never mention the D-word, however.--Wetman (talk) 20:35, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I would say they're blockable, actually. I'm going to warn him that that's as far as he can go, no more.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well you would say that, but which statement is untrue? Giano (talk) 20:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Would someone please just refactor the thread and let this rest? It's mildly amusing to read accusations that I'm racist against my own ethnic heritage, but there's nothing useful to be accomplished by making more of this. <font face="Verdana"> Durova 278 20:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * refactor and I will revert - your evidence is stil in circulation so you cannot deny it. Speaking German is not proof of sock puppetry. In fact, it;s a very unkind thing to say - full stop. Giano (talk) 20:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Truth or untruth is not relevant. Truth spoken in an abusive way, as a personal attack and rudely, is not acceptable here.  It does not need to be false to be uncivil and abusive.  You do not have to like her, or respect her, but you may not attack her or anyone else in that manner.  Stop, now.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have struck the personal attacks. (Off2riorob (talk) 20:47, 16 July 2009 (UTC))
 * and I have reverted you. The truth is the truth and history os something we need to, and should, learn from. Giano (talk) 20:49, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * edit conflict.We have nothing to learn from personal attacks on other editors. He has reverted my edit and replaced the personal attacks, that is the same as repeating them. (Off2riorob (talk) 20:53, 16 July 2009 (UTC))
 * Oh whine, whine, whine, poor Off2riorob! Editors are entitled to remove your input, however valuable, from their page. How about leaving Giano and his page alone? Have you considered that? Bishonen | talk 21:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC).
 * Why you are permitted to be an admin with the sort of scorn you heap on people is beyond me, but that is not acceptable behaviour. It would also help if you actually knew what was going on: Giano didn't revert Off2riorob's posting on his talkpage--which he would have been entitled to do. He reverted Off2's strikeout of the personal attacks. → ROUX   ₪  21:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Roux, if you have an issue with Bishonen's adminship, start an RFAr, for God's sake, instead of just sniping here. Heimstern:Away (talk) 04:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware that pointing out current unacceptable behaviour was 'sniping'. How interesting. → ROUX   ₪  04:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "Why you are permitted to be an admin[...]is beyond me" is not needed when pointing out whatever behavioural issues you might need to point out. If you have a problem with someone being an admin, do something about it instead of complaining. Otherwise you're just heaping more coal on the drama fire. Heimstern:Away (talk) 04:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi, Roux. I think you may perhaps not be aware of Off2riorob's (not "people's") corrosive attacks on me. I do not regret speaking unkindly to that editor, and you're welcome to my adminship any time. Note especially Off2's accusation of "Harassment of the blocking admin", i. e. I've purportedly been harassing Jimbo Wales. (I wonder where?) Looking further at Off2's royalist contributions, I noticed the (to me) remarkable edit summary "Please remember this is a wikipedia living person"—I thought for a moment he was talking about me! (It was actually about Jimbo.) Oh, well, of course you're entitled to your opinion in any case. Bishonen | talk 22:14, 16 July 2009 (UTC).
 * Ah.. so because he was rude, that means you're allowed to be? Not so much, no. You had hold of the completely wrong end of the stick, and were sniping due to a grudge. Interestingly, this is precisely what Giano did. → ROUX   ₪  04:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Fwiw, am heading back to Photoshop to continue restoration on a seventeenth century map. There's nothing to be gained by quarreling. <font face="Verdana"> Durova 278 20:53, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * And this is one of the people the ArbCom wants representing them. It seems to me like quite a few of the members of the advisory council could use a time out in their continuous personal attacks and ill-advised statements.  Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Blocked
I invite uninvolved admin review, but as Giano reverted the strikeout after a final warning and there's a rapid but significant consensus that the comments were personal attacks, I have blocked him for NPA for 24 hrs. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:00, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Edit conflict. I have struck the comments again and an editor has done the correct thing and blocked him for 24 hours. (Off2riorob (talk) 21:03, 16 July 2009 (UTC))
 * Your ability to divine "rapid but significant consensus" with the tiniest of fraction of input from regulars at this board is remarkable indeed Georgewilliamherbert. Pedro : Chat  21:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure consensus is needed to block for the actions noted above. This isn't something sneaky or ambiguous.  These are clear personal attacks, and Giano is maintaining them despite several requests to retract them.  We frequently block other users for less strenuous attacks, and Giano has not earned a free pass to make comments like this merely because he has been here a long time.  --Jayron32. talk . say no to drama  21:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Whether the block required or did not require consensus is immaterial here. GWH claimed "rapid consensus" in the post above as at the very least partial justification for his actions. Call me a fool if you wish, but "rapid" and "consensus" do not seem to be happy bedfellows. If GWH wants to block he would do well not to claim a community consensus that did not exist at the time he performed the action. Pedro : Chat  21:15, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "A procedural error made in posting anything, such as an idea or nomination, is not grounds for invalidating". There is no need to raise objections over the specific wording here.  The block was justified at the time it was made on the content of the personal attacks alone, and that should be enough.  Also, see most of the comments below.--Jayron32. talk . say no to drama  21:22, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It would be proper to challenge if continuing consensus development indicated that I had erred and that they were not personal attacks. But I think that calling a developing consensus after 4 opinions is not grossly unreasonable, and the ongoing consensus that has developed is overwhelming by now.  There is no here, here.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * To invite, nay request, uninvolved commentary on your decision to block - and then not to bother to read it properly when given is at best ill-thought out GWH. You asked for input - and you now argue when you don't like it. Get the hint? Pedro : Chat  22:19, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Good block. There's no reason and no justification to carry on such personal attacks after repeated warnings. RxS (talk) 21:04, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Endorse the block. Calling someone "stupid" and a "racist" are defaming personal attacks.  There are ways of criticising people which do not involve insults, defamation of character, or name calling in this manner.  Additionally, Giano is not new to the project, and is also not new to these sorts of problems in controlling what is in his edit box when he chooses to press the "save page" button.  Additionally, that he refuses to acknowledge these blatant violations as such, and instead not only maintains his position in using those exact words, but is edit warring to keep them in the page in question, only reinforces the preventative nature of this block.  --Jayron32. talk . say no to drama  21:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If he was new, he would have been blocked longer, as a new user would not have been so tolerated. <font color="Navy">Law <font color="Navy">type! <font color="Navy">snype? 21:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Endorse block. It's not so much because of what specifically he said, but because he chose to persistently derail an ongoing debate where these attacks were patently off-topic, only serving to warm up an old grudge completely unrelated to the issue being discussed on that page. That's very immature behaviour indeed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:12, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I endorse the action, but think 24 hours are not enough to allow Giano to cool down again, would suggest extending to at least 72 hours. → Aza Toth 21:12, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And that still won't be good enough given the diff below. — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 21:17, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not an admin, but anyway, good job, though I would like the block to be for a week. I would like to bring everyone's attentions to this, and quote "What a funny little man you are George William Herbert" - I view that as a direct attack against the blocking admin, and I propose that an admin extend the block to 1 week for continued attacks. — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 21:15, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure extending the block would be a good idea, even if I endorse this block. Lets see what happens when the block expires. If he does not resume the attacks once the block expires, then it served its purpose. If he does, he can be reblocked. If the attacks intensify at his talk page, we can always just protect it for the duration of the block, but at this point I think 24 hours is fine. --Jayron32. talk . say no to drama 21:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand that if the attacks do not persist that the block has served it's purpose, but making attacks like that continually even after an administrator tells the user "I have blocked you for personal attacks" is extend-worthy, in my opinion. — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 21:27, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec) Nah, an extension is precisely what we do not need to get this episode over with. He had to be removed from the discussion he was disrupting; now if he needs to continue hollering on his own user talk, that's just routine to be best ignored. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not so sure that extending the block would be 'going overboard'. Giano's is the longest block log I have ever seen (that hasn't ended in an outright ban), and I somehow doubt at this point that 24h blocks even register to him. A significantly long block might drive home that his relentless personal attacks are not allowed. → ROUX   ₪  21:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec) Two things: blocks are not used as "cool downs", and calling someone a "funny little man" is hardly a personal attack and is a poor reason for extending the block. Nev1 (talk) 21:25, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Endorse 24hr block. I contemplated doing it myself at the time, before deciding that one dramatic action was enough from me for tonight. If that user had been anyone other than Giano I doubt this would even be contentious; particularly the second two diffs were definite personal attacks and were over the line. However, let's not go overboard on extending the block. ~ mazca  talk 21:17, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Also endorse, but agree with Azatoth on increasing to 72 hours, not to cool down (no never!) but because it's warranted after multiple instances. Blocks should be increased to have a credible deterrent effect.  R. Baley (talk) 21:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Lets not grasp at straws. "What a funny little man", and similar comments are rude, obnoxious, and disrespectful, but are not personal attacks. The only personal attack here was this one. Perhaps a warning would have been better suited. Prodego  <sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk  21:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * For the record - I did warn; after which he reverted the comments back in (all 3) after someone else struck them. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:25, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * In line with my often-stated stance that I encourage not piling on additional block time for users who vent after being blocked, I would like to request that other administrators not extend the block. I am not suprised but nor was the comment anywhere near threatening enough to worry or offend me under the circumstances.  If Giano cannot be civil 24 hrs from now, he is unlikely to be more civil in 48 or 72 hrs or a week from now.  I AGF that he will not continue the particular behavior immediately in any case.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Though I don't endorse or oppose the initial divination of "a rapid but significant consensus" by Gwh, extending the block would be punitive and would serve no real purpose other than punishment. Unitanode  21:27, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Persistently showing poor conduct after being blocked, whether you're acting that way while blocked or not is irrelevant. An extension would serve far more than punishment, in fact, not punishment at all. — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 21:31, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * At some point we need to recognise that the current way of doing things is not preventing Giano from making outrageous personal attacks whenever he feels like it. Here's what happens: Giano makes some attack. He gets blocked. DRAMA. Someone else unblocks him. MOAR DRAMA. We wait a couple weeks or months, and then Giano makes some attack. He gets blocked. DRAMA. Someone else unblocks him. MOAR DRAMA. We wait a couple weeks or months...
 * Nothing is working to prevent these outbursts. Either he needs to be community banned (unlikely, to say the least; DRAMA), or the blocks need to be of significant duration in order to prevent more attacks coming. → ROUX   ₪  21:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I have repeatedly been subject to much worse attacks from admins and sole-co-founders than anything I have ever seen Giano say about anyone, yet none of them ever get blocked for it. DuncanHill (talk) 21:39, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That doesn't excuse the behavior, however. — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 21:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why not? Surely we should follow the example set by such trusted members of the community? Or is it just another case of hypocrisy - those in favour can get away with anything, those out of favour get jumped on for things which would not be a problem if said by anyone else. DuncanHill (talk) 21:49, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Personal attacks + warning + persistence = Block. — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 21:53, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Only for some. DuncanHill (talk) 21:54, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You understandably ignore the very valid point that DuncanHill raised above Mythodon, which is that administartors routinely get away with the most outrageous personal atacks, with hardly a word said, much less a block. It's understandable that you ignore it, because it's indefensible. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:56, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If that's the case, then something definitely needs to be done. Are you saying admins seem to feel unbound by policy? — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 21:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If there are admins acting this way there should be some action taken, can you give us some examples? RxS (talk) 22:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, Guy (a horribly abusive admin) has apparently gone off to sulk (hooray), and whenever I have pointed out such behaviour it seems to result in other admins threatening me or joining in the attacks (of course there are always a few honourable exceptions) but hang around on this page long enough and you'll see plenty of others - and there's nothing you can do about it, as you'll never get consensus for blocking the worst offenders. DuncanHill (talk) 22:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you referring to ? That admin uses the signature "Guy", so I assume you're referring to him/her. — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 22:35, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think any regular at this page would know who a phrase like "Guy (A horribly abusive admin)" should be taken to be. DuncanHill (talk) 22:39, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * But are you referring to the user JzG I mention above? — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 22:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, and if anyone wishes to object to my characterization of him as a horribly abusive admin, I'll happily add that he showed serious signs of incompetence too. DuncanHill (talk) 22:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, if you're going to make claims of unchecked systemic personal attacks by admins you'll need to do better than one semi-retired admin (no matter how you feel about him) RxS (talk) 22:54, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why the hell should I assume you'll be able to do anything more than has happened when I have done just that? My experience is that providing evidence of abusive behaviour by admins just results in an increase of the same behaviour. I have, as a result of my experiences, no confidence whatsoever in any admin unless they have already shewn themselves to be committed to honourable and decent behaviour in a discussion which I have been following. I am sorry if you find that upsetting, but that is what my experience of editing wikipedia has taught me. We are not allowed to compile evidence on-wiki of such behaviour by admins (even though some admins do compile such evidence against non-admins), and far too few admins are actually prepared to call out their abusive colleagues. DuncanHill (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 22:47, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Please take whatever you are talking about to whereever it belongs. (Off2riorob (talk) 22:49, 16 July 2009 (UTC))
 * What conversation are you referring to? — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 22:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the relevant discussion here isn't about particular administrators, as examples of far worse incivility than Giano, or WebHamster has been accused of in another place with a "fuck off", aren't exactly difficult to find. The important issue here is that administrators do not as a rule hold themselves to the standards that they expect of others, and the punishments meted out to administrators and non-administrators (let's not kid ourselves that blocks are preventative of anything) are disproportionate. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:54, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * After reading that discussion, it looks like Scarian got uncivil with you. I also see incivility from you with your comment "I think you're a disgrace as an administrator". I'm not excusing either one of you, though. — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 23:04, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Please don't disrupt the thread here by introducing material that it not related. (Off2riorob (talk) 23:03, 16 July 2009 (UTC))


 * Endorse the block. Please take the tedious "civility standards are applied differently" discussion elsewhere.  It's well past its sell-by date. Protonk (talk) 00:51, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Endorse block. Given the considerable amount of incivility blocks Giano has already been subject to under his various accounts, and his apparent reluctance to learn from them, the block should have been considerably longer.  Sandstein   11:35, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry Sandstein, you have joined the party a little late. Giano (talk) 11:37, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

An olive branch
Was hoping to resolve the matter without any block. But since one has happened, let's be better than our worst moments. As a gesture of respect toward Giano's content work and his profession, am interrupting other work to restore a scan from an original aerial perspective for an office building in Singapore. Would be delighted if Giano agrees to put this behind us and perhaps fill in the redlink for Francesco Muttoni, an eighteenth century architect (there's a restored illustration all ready to go; it's been hard to find biographical sources). Let's shake hands and get back to building the encyclopedia. <font face="Verdana"> Durova 278 21:49, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * That's just about the most sensible comment I've seen in this thread Durova. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:52, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes... a charming thought. You guys will have to hold your beautiful gestures for some hours, though. Giano has gone to bed. Annoying habit, that, in the midst of drama, isn't it? Bishonen | talk 22:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC).
 * Giano needs to gain respect for his politeness and respect of other editors. He is actually well known as a rude person. I for one, care less about whatever he has written. He has no special importance here at all. If his is rude, he goes. If he continues to be rude he goes for a longer period. (Off2riorob (talk) 22:04, 16 July 2009 (UTC))
 * I'll remember that you've given me full acknowledgement to block you immediately if you make a rude remark. -- Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 22:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That's bordering on a personal attack as well, you know. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 22:07, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Given the subject of the "personal" attacks does not request a block, and given GWH specifically invited review, I am minded to unblock. And, yes, I do consider my self uninvolved - in the thread above I never stated an opinion on the block itself (despite the assumption by Jayron and GWH that I did). So - who thinks lifting this block will result in damage to Wikipedia? I would of course prefer GWH reversed it. Pedro : Chat  22:12, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The block is good. -


 * Bordering ?. It would be true that everyone gets a bit stressed every now and then, respect is given to the ability to hold your hand up and say..hey, I was rude, I take it back, I am sorry, lets move on in a better way. Some editors push on with the same attitude and they get to go and that is correct for the encyclopedia.(Off2riorob (talk) 22:15, 16 July 2009 (UTC))


 * I agree with Mal, and support Pedros suggestion. Hopefully GWH will check back on this thread. — Ched : <font style="color:#FFFFFF;background:#0000fa;"> ?  22:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Pedro, I quite strongly suggest you not do that. Prodego  <sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk  22:25, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I might be just as good as GWH at divining consensus from 4 comments you know. But one rule for some people, another for others. I'm not going to wheel war - because frankly I don't give a fuck mate. Pedro : Chat  22:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's never been the case that the target of a personal attack needs to consent or agree to a block, it's the editing environment that's at risk and not the personal feelings of the subject. RxS (talk) 22:29, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The editor in question has not even requested an unblock. I would suggest you leave it up to him to state his point of view. Why he thinks he should be unblocked, maybe he won't do it again, or he takes the comments back.. or some other reason. (Off2riorob (talk) 22:31, 16 July 2009 (UTC))

Elder statesmen, repeated personal insults from an elder statesman are actualy worse than if they are from a new user. (Off2riorob (talk) 22:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC))
 * 1) Support unblocking per Durova and common sense. The point's been made. Let's end the disruption and move forward. And by the way, Durova and Giano are both elder statesmen for this project, whatever their respective imperfections.
 * And please remember to sign up for the The Great Wikipedia Dramaout if you haven't already. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Then what punishment would you suggest that this outburst from a well established administrator ought to have received? What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander remember. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Please don't disrupt the thread here by introducing material that it not related. (Off2riorob (talk) 23:03, 16 July 2009 (UTC))


 * I would suggest that it is you who is disrupting this thread, in your obsession to see another editor punished for behaviour that falls far short of the example I presented that you have chosen to ignore. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Pedro, I think lifting this block will result in damage to Wikipedia. It's already been established and agreed that the edits consisted of some personal attacks, that despite being warned the personal attacks continued (and reverts that reinstated them) and that the editor in question doesn't agree they weren't acceptable and showed no intention of stopping. By unblocking, you will send a clear message (yet again) that it is acceptable for this particular editor to consistently attack other editors that he doesn't like and to destabilize any discussion he doesn't agree with into ad hominem, rather than a discussion about the issues. By letting him know that his deliberately disruptive argumentation methods are acceptable you also send a clear message to every other editor that they should also use those same methods because they are effective and tolerated, which further contributes to the (allegedly) "broken" Wikipedia. In short, by unblocking you say "you are exempt from the rules and it's OK for you to derail discussions by diverting them into personal attacks" Ha! (talk) 23:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * @Malleus: Totting up, that makes 722.5 hours! :) Seriously, I wonder about some of these blocks too. Giano criticising Durova for her behaviour on a Wiki-political page where everyone, including Durova, is claiming the moral high-ground and holding forth on WHAT IS GOOD/BAD FOR THE PROJECT is not the same as a hapless editor being called a fuckwit for making a content edit by someone they've only just met. In my view, it's the latter situation that WP:CIVILITY should primarily be for, to ensure there is a welcoming culture. But this is not the situation between Giano and Durova. Even friends argue sometimes; loving husbands and wives have at times been known to turn into over-the-top grumpsters ... As important as civility is, this nanny attitude of locking people in the cupboard for saying a bad word is itself in danger of becoming ridiculous, stifling and disrespectful; you don't treat adults that way in real life.  JN 466  23:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, many long-term editors with a track record of quality contributions to articles stand to be driven off the project if people are allowed to call them "stupid" and "racist" and other such personal attacks if it is left unchecked. The whole point is that no one should be given a free pass for creating a hostile environment for any reason.  It is possible to vehemently disagree with a person, and to still not create a hostile environment by calling them base names or defaming their character.  That all being said, if Durova wants to let this slide, I would think that we all could, since the attacks were directed at her.  However, in general, we should never let anyone perform such acts against another user.  Its not about avoiding swear words (fuck that) or about not engaging other editors when you disagree with them.  Its about not resorting to name calling and defamation when doing so.  --Jayron32. talk . say no to drama  23:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * We aren't officers of the court where we should press on, regardless of the "victim's" take. This isn't a domestic violence case and Durova's olive branch is a sensible one. If she has no problem with this case, we ought not to crusade while ignoring her olive branch. I support an unblock because we aren't police, and Durova's commentary should be given weight. <font color="Navy">Law <font color="Navy">type! <font color="Navy">snype? 23:48, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Hear, hear. Let's try and behave like rational adults, not like nursery school teachers, or some waif who falls into a swoon at the sound of a naughty word. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:55, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Some parts may stay which contains criticism  rest are completely unnecessary personal attacks. Reply for first entry, didn't read rest of the discussions. Kasaalan (talk) 23:51, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually the one thing I do request is extensive refactoring. That whole thread might as well go from the moment it went personal.  Let's keep it about the project rather than about personalities please. <font face="Verdana"> Durova  278 00:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Done . Ha! (talk)
 * Rational adults don't hurl personal attacks at each other, this is not about swooning over a naughty word but treating each other in a respectful manner. This isn't some gaming board but a serious project. You don't casually call someone a racist in the workplace or a classroom and you can't do it here. RxS (talk) 00:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I couldn't agree more; I'm of the opinion that we should all strive to behave in a civil and professional manner, and that we should enforce the civility policy where appropriate. But what good is the block doing at this point? Ideally blocks should be used to prevent damage to the encyclopedia, and while what Giano said was not acceptable by any means, the block is currently harming the encyclopedia by stirring up drama, creating grudges, and inducing stress. I'm not doubting the block was necessary at the time, but I endorse Durova's motion. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 01:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * There seems to be significant experienced administrator input that the block was good and should run its (24 hr) course. I understand the input here about reducing.  I think that it may minimize drama all around if this one actually runs to its initial duration and simply expires, though.  Another user making those comments would not have had large quantities of discussion and support and detractors show up.  I understand the argument that drama / stress may be minimized by just moving past this, but perhaps simply treating the abuse and block as if it were any normal user will also help minimize drama and stress.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * How about this in the interests of consensus? Wait until he returns and see if he accepts the olive branch. <font face="Verdana"> Durova  278 01:20, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have no objection to this block being truncated to time served if Giano's comments and actions in the morning indicate that the problem is over and will not recur tomorrow. Any administrator should feel free to do that if he affirmatively and credibly states that he will stop the personal attacks that started this.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:00, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the restoration is ready but the devs have disabled image uploads. Here is the original.  Will bring the restored version live as soon as it's possible. <font face="Verdana"> Durova  278 02:37, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth I think olive branches are best offered unconditionally. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:48, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The main goal is to find consensus and get back to work. <font face="Verdana"> Durova 278 03:23, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It takes a consensus of one to block. And yet here there is very broad agreement that the block has served its purpose and that a goodwill gesture is appropriate as per your reasonable suggestion. Yet here we are held hostage by the blocking admin. Is it vanity? Why are blocks so easily imposed, but so difficult to get lifted? ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why such charged accusations? I see no evidence the block was made by a "consensus of one" -- have you read the thread above? Particularly as it existed at the time the block was set? Nor do I see any evidence we're being "held hostage" by the blocking admin; George has made it quite clear he wouldn't mind an unblock if any uninvolved admin believes, in good faith, that -- to quote him -- "the problem is over". Nor do I see any claim on Durova's part that this "olive branch" is being offered in anything but the best of faith, without any apparent conditions. While you haven't come out and said as much, the tone of your language seems to indicate that you believe other users are acting abusively, unusually, or maliciously, and with respect I'm not seeing any obvious reason to take that leap with you. – <font color="#28f">Luna Santin (talk) 03:54, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have in fact read the thread and understand that GWH engaged in a block based on "a rapid but significant consensus" that may or may not have existed (an action that has not gone unquestioned). His action certainly doesn't seem to have limited the amount of disruption. Durova and Giano are adults, and sometimes people say things that are kind of mean. It's best to try to work it out with the least collateral damage wouldn't you say? But I was willing to let the block itself go as being well intentioned and within reason, and was trying to focus on moving forward. There seems to be clear and abundant consensus in favor of moving forward except for a couple of hold outs including the blocking admin himself who is certain the full 24 hours will be doubly helpful despite all the evidence to the contrary. This same admin was quick to find a consensus for his dramatic block, but heaven forbid anyone suggests the most civil and respectful action would be to unblock in good faith, it's as if we're raising some outlandish and far fetched suggestion that is incomprehensible. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I notice you've dropped several of your accusations and traded them for new ones, the moment I questioned the first set and asked for specifics, and I can't help but find that noteworthy. Indeed, the block has not gone unquestioned; nor has it gone unsupported. While a number of administrators have commented on the thread, none of them have removed the block in spite of George's open offer. Why do you think that is? Is there some massive conspiracy of evil cabalists plotting behind the scenes? Is George speaking disingenuously or with implied threats? Could it be that no uninvolved admin happening upon this (fairly prominent) thread has thought that immediately removing the block would be the ideal course of action? Why wouldn't they believe that, do you think? I do agree that a number of editors support "moving forward", but such a nod makes no mention of blocking or unblocking -- to me, it seems erroneous to suggest that editors have specifically commented on that matter when they have slyly avoided doing so. "Moving forward" could be taken to mean many things, here, and I've a hunch that's intentional on the part of those saying it or trying to preempt one of those many meanings. – <font color="#28f">Luna Santin (talk) 04:38, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I find George William Herbert's comment above disruptive. He's the blocking admin, so clearly involved, and yet he finds it appropriate to determine that the consensus is that the block should run its course? That's not my reading of this discussion. I see a clear consensus that the point was made that Giano needs to be more civil and that lifting the block will be helpful in ending the disruption and showing good will. If George William Herbert (I almost called him George Herbert Walker) wants to set an example for civility, how about being responsive to and respectful of the opinions stated by other good faith editors and abiding by the community's consensus to lift the block. Thanks man! ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You seem to be assuming I'm trying to block an external uninvolved admin block review. I'm not doing that at all - any uninvolved admin can step up and formally review the block.  We're having an active discussion on the topic short of an independent block review.  I believe it's considered helpful if admins can participate in these when their actions are under review.  If I decide to change what I did as a result of a discussion it's a good thing, right?
 * If another admin wants to step up and formally review they can do that too... So far, everyone's just giving input in the open consensus discussion, though.  That doesn't preclude anyone else from a block review, at any time.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * We've all reviewed it. It seems okay. Most of us now feel it's accomplished its purpose and have asked that you be so kind and courteous and generous in spirit as to lift it, especially per Durova's indication that she would have preferred avoiding a block to begin with and that she supports the extending of an olive branch in the form of lifting the block at this point. I say again that it takes a consensus of one to block, no matter how much opposition (although in this case the consensus seems to be that it was not a bad block even if it wasn't particularly helpful in limiting damage and disruption which is the stated purpose of block). Yet get a block reviewed or lifted takes a parting of the Red Sea. No wonder editors are so thankful for miraclulous actions of civility no matter how insignificant (thank you for the barnstars people) as we're left waiting for any crumb from all the big talkers about how important civility is. Where I come from actions speak louder than words. Durova's made an impressive display of goodwill despite some very bitey comments directed at her. I suggest you follow her example, and hope for the best. I'm sure off2rob and others will keep a close eye out that no further indiscretions follow! ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:02, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As I said, my instinct at this point is that letting it run to expiration is the most healthy outcome. That said, I understand your and Durova's point, and as I stated if it becomes clear to any admin that it's over / ok then an unblock is fine.  It's not clear to me yet, at this instant.
 * I would also support an unblock at time served if we get a consensus for it here, enough to outweigh the good block / good duration consensus in the section above. So far we have less consensus here for that.  If it develops some time tonight and another admin calls it that way, I won't object in the morning.
 * I'm going to be leaving for the night, and I'll leave it as is for now, but I invite any awake admins to consider the situation and discussion now and as it evolves later tonight, and do what you feel is right if you believe the situation changes. I think that we'll all survive either way, the 24 hrs isn't that far out right now and Giano's going to have spent a large portion of that time hopefully getting a good night's sleep.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:17, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

There comes a point when endless 24 hour blocks are no longer productive. At the moment, all these 24 hour blocks are merely punitive. They do nothing to calm the situation down; conversely, they stir up the situation. Nothing good is coming out of the blocks, and it just creates bitter feelings, irritated editors, and it's taking away the time to actually do what we all came to the project for. ( X! ·  talk )  · @202  · 03:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I actually think this was healthy - there's a strong consensus the block was justified, nobody did a reflexive unblock just because it was Giano, the discussion here has been much light and little heat or threat. For a drama incident, everyone's responding pretty well.  Giano is clearly not happy - but also has not responded with either significant nasty comments nor very many comments in total.
 * It's clearly more drama than we would have seen with random user block - but also a healthy and relatively normal response given who it was.
 * I think we ultimately win if we have less drama and more consistent handling of incidents for everyone. And I think we're seeing that here so far, and hopefully going forwards.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If you think the block has limited drama you are wearing rose tinted glasses or heavily inebriated. This long thread is testament, that polite discussion and mediation would have been far superior. Probably the best thing would have been to let the comments go for a while until everyone calmed down. But the civility police had to take action. Thank you for protecting us all. I will sleep well tonight knowing that Wikipedia is safe from any mean comments (at least those from editors who make easy targets). ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:16, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the most calm and constructive incident with a Giano abuse complaint we've had in 3 years, in my judgement. The drama here has been verbose but not hostile, the discussion has been constructive, Giano has responded in a very minimal manner rather than confrontationally on his talk page.  I understand that you disagree with all of this, but where you see a small disaster, I see a responsible and adult and constructive response.  I apologize if my glass being half full at the moment offends your sensibility.  8-)  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As I've stated, I have no major issue with the block, though I certainly don't applaud it as some masterstroke of genius that has reduced drama (since the opposite appears to have happened). The issue now is at what point you can show some actual civility and good faith instead of continuing to beat a dead horse. Is there something to be accomplished by further humiliating a long term good faith editor? Ar eyou going to teach him a lesson? Does it satisfy your ego? At what point will you be willing to let go?  Do you want him to apologize for saying something he thinks was important and needed to be said? It's not going to happen. What then?  Maybe you should extend the block. That will really do the trick. If only our admins were held to your high standards of civility. And maybe you folks could chip in now and then in the trenches where the content disputes happen instead of just playing good cop bad cop when a fight breaks out? You know, lead by example. Do some community policing.  ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I hope you don't take this badly, but this thread took about another hour of my time after you made (among other things) the comment on my talk page about another incivility incident that someone should look at. My efforts to go community police the thing you called in to report were delayed by this thread here.  Your interest in this thread is certainly useful and welcome, but the side effect of one long discussion is several short ones being deferred.  I have gone and left a warning in that case now, but it's useful to consider that admin time is a finite-sum game.  Simultaneously engaging in lengthy active discussion in one area and asking for productive proactive "community policing" in other areas doesn't work - we can't be everywhere at the same time, and if one large discussion occupies someone's available time they won't get to other things during the time when timely intervention is helpful.  I have been unable to go patrol several watchlisted hotspots today because of this stuff, including some where I've been working to defuse stuff or warn problem editors.  Presumably anything that happened will wait until tomorrow.  And I'm glad we're having an active constructive discussion about this block.  But time is not a renewable resource.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:00, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

< heh! Whilst it's kind of interesting to watch folk bashing an editor with an olive branch as he sleeps, I don't really think this whole situation can be described as 'calm and constructive' (sorry!) - it seems pretty clear to me that Giano should be unblocked, and also that it's surprisingly easy for confirmation bias to kick in heavily, and for us all to be sat around praising the emporer's wonderful new wardrobe ;-) - This was a terrible decision on many levels, in my book, and I hope someone sane can sort it out soonish :-) Privatemusings (talk) 04:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * A good meal and a good night's sleep usually helps the collaborative mood. Getting close to that on Pacific time, so thanks for keeping things relatively calm.  Although Brion Vibber may have a coronary when he sees the size of the file that comes in after he reenables uploading. ;) <font face="Verdana"> Durova  278 04:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * yes indeed :-) - My reading of your position is that you're up for moving along now, and likely support an unblock - I think that would be the best outcome at this point - but then I'm in the priviledged position of being about to crack the friday afternoon beer :-) Snags going on the barbie by the harbour if the weather holds too.... one and all are welcome round my place in this wonderful spirit of concilliation! :-) Privatemusings (talk) 05:05, 17 July 2009 (UTC) it'd be great if giano could be released from his sleepy block to join us? :-)
 * Without comment on the original block, I see an offer of reconciliation from Durova, and an agreement from GWH for re-assessment of his block. I took the liberty of unblocking Giano.  I apologize if I have offended anyone in doing so.  My intentions are rooted in the hope that everyone will be nice after a good night's sleep.  Please feel free to use my talk page to yell at me if you disagree. -- Samir 08:28, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Samir, I have indeed had a very good night's sleep. It seems though that some have been up all night. I always get very grumpy when I'm tired - fortunately though insomnia has never been one of my prblems. Giano (talk) 10:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I totally disagree with any unblock without allowing Giano the decency of dealing with this in his own way. What we have now is ridiculous, first you block him and then you unblock him..without even allowing him the freedom to do as he likes. You don't even know if he wants unblocking. (Off2riorob (talk) 09:26, 17 July 2009 (UTC))
 * If Durova wants him unblocked, who are you to ignore her wishes. There is no personal attack if the 'person' does not find it as such. Any reblock and I'll simply unblock. I'm not big on personal attacks, however, I really don't give a shit what people say to me, and when others, especially those who are the 'victims' of such an attack chime in, I believe they hold equal weight. NPA, like the unholy WP:CIV, are in the eye of the recipient. <font color="Navy">Law <font color="Navy">type! <font color="Navy">snype? 10:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with you about that, Law. WP:NPA advises us that "Personal attacks do not help make a point; they only hurt the Wikipedia community and deter users from helping to create a good encyclopedia." In effect, the harm done by a personal attack is not the hurt feelings of the person being attacked, but it is the disruption of the polite and collegial atmosphere that we want to work in, and the chilling effect of such attacks on others. Personal attacks are Wikipedia's equivalent of obscene slurs in public bathrooms; they demean not only the people they are aimed at, but all others who have to look at them. (See also Fixing Broken Windows).  Sandstein   12:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Durova never said she wanted him unblocked, she said she offered him an olive branch and see whar he did with it. (Off2riorob (talk) 10:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)) and..who the fuck are you to ask me who the fuck am I, you fuckwit. (Off2riorob (talk) 10:23, 17 July 2009 (UTC))

Off2riorob Blocked

 * I have blocked Off2riorob for 24 hours for this personal attack.  Sandstein   12:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Support unblock RioRob has intimated he regrets the statement. This block is merely heightening drama. It serves no purpose Giano (talk) 12:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Where has he stated that he regrets this statement? If he says so, and is willing to strike it, I'm of course OK with an unblock. Otherwise, the purpose of this block is to prevent more personal attacks.  Sandstein   13:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Immediatly above where you posted perhaps you ought to take the time to read things and spend a little less time blocking. It's unlikely he will be making any posts at all - if he says he regards himslf as blocked. Giano (talk) 13:07, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If you refer to this edit, I find it merely confusing (non-admins cannot block themselves). If Off2riorob wants to make a apology, he can do so in an unblock request.  Sandstein   13:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I doubt he's that sort somehow, sounds to me like he is mortified and gone off to confession or whaver the equivalent is in his part of the world. All that you have just done is to increase his pennance a little more - is that the role of an Admin? Giano (talk) 13:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Nowhere has s/he said that they plan to stop. To the contrary, they seem to find personal attacks fun - Kingpin13 (talk) 13:25, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Really? I find this quite conclusive "Off2riorob has blocked himself in support of the No personal attacks and in the interests of civility." What aprt of it are you having a problem understanding? Obviously found out he could not block himself, so just gone off to pray for strength or whatever. Giano (talk) 13:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC) Giano (talk) 13:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe he figures that his personal attacks are unacceptable, and that he enjoys it so much he needs some cool-down time, before he can edit Wikipedia without swearing at another user? - Kingpin13 (talk) 13:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Personally, I took the comment "has blocked himself" to be an admission that he made the post above intentionally to obtain a block. Maybe that's just me. ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 13:37, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not just you. That's how I interpreted it as well.  Enigma <sup style="color:#FFA500;">msg  17:34, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Endorse Block comments like the one above and the one at User talk:Samir should not be tolerated. It seems that from Giano's link Off2riorob is actually saying s/he agrees that they should be blocked. It doesn't seem they are able to stay civil in this discussion - Kingpin13 (talk) 13:11, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Honestly, if you wrote all this in a book, no one would beleive it. Giano (talk) 13:14, 17 July 2009 (UUser
 * just out of interest, and actually slightly off subject, has the thing that archives his talk gone ballistic or something, it seems to be archiving every 5 minutes, which makes things confusing. Giano (talk) 13:41, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Aye, before I commented here I was looking through his contribs, and spotted this (the age is how long the bot waits to archive), seems a bit strange that he did that - Kingpin13 (talk) 13:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * He's only just set up archiving - he asked me to help him with it. My talk page's archiving is poorly set-up, so I would imagine any help I gave to Off2riorob probably hindered more than it helped. Cheers, <b style="color:#000">TFOWR</b>This flag once was red 13:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You set the 'age' parameter to wait only one hour and then archive if there had been no reply. I've set it to 48 hours and restored Durova's edit. At least I hope I've set it to 48 hours! Dougweller (talk) 16:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Giano unblocked

 * Woooah, let's everybody please calm down, here. Swearing at each other and pre-emptively threatening wheel warring? Drawing battle lines is only going to encourage and prolong drama. Remember the intent of the section. As best I can tell, Samir has unblocked in good faith, Giano has returned graciously, and the immediate crisis is resolved about as well as could be hoped for, accounting for circumstances. The idea, after all, is to get everybody back to editing peacefully. – <font color="#28f">Luna Santin (talk) 10:35, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm the one who is going to block you for another personal attack. I'm the one who will ask you to refrain. I'm the one who will ask you kindly again to rethink your omnipresence at this board: It is ANI. Editors come here for administrative action. <font color="Navy">Law <font color="Navy">type! <font color="Navy">snype? 10:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * LMAO "He has no special importance here at all. If his is rude, he goes. If he continues to be rude he goes for a longer period". --<font color="#000000">Web <font color="#ff0000">H <font color="#000000">amster  10:55, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You missed He is actually well known as a rude person. <font color="Navy">Law <font color="Navy">type! <font color="Navy">snype? 11:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * what does LMAO mean? Giano (talk) 11:06, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it was just an irony to Off2's comment. <font color="Navy">Law <font color="Navy">type! <font color="Navy">snype? 11:14, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I can only think of "laughing my ass off", but I don't think that likely do you? I wish people would not use these terms, my one of my regular correspondents keeps telling me that they are ROTFLOling, it has gone on for so long now, I don't like to ask what it is exactly that they are doing - the world does seem very odd these days. Giano (talk) 11:25, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * My assumption is that you were not asking what it actually entailed, but to what it was in reference. Yes, you are correct. It is computer-jargon. Someone is laughing their ass off. <font color="Navy">Law <font color="Navy">type! <font color="Navy">snype? 11:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I was laughing my arse off (quite literally - though have no fear, my ass is still in situ but my virtual ass is rolling round the floor) at the hypocrisy shown. --<font color="#000000">Web <font color="#ff0000">H <font color="#000000">amster  12:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * How very odd. Giano (talk) 11:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * edit box sez 70kb — and they say teh wiki isn't a battleground. Jack Merridew 13:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC) (who read it all)

Solutions
Have left a message at Off2RioRob's user talk, asking him to post a few words to say he won't repeat the problem. As soon as he does would someone unblock him please? Meanwhile am uploading the restoration and hoping it goes up without a hitch (nearly 100MB, unstable server connection, crossing fingers). Inviting fellow Wikipedians to join in drafting a new article for a Mark Twain essay. <font face="Verdana"> Durova 279 14:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Let's try to end this without blocks. I unblocked Off2riorob. I know he was probably just upset. I understand Sandstein wanted to prevent personal attacks, but I think this will all end up best if no one is blocked. I'm working for the next several hours but am probably reachable my e-mail if someone wants to discuss this. Thanks very much -- Samir 17:14, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Samir. Anyone who wants to join The Awful German Language before it goes to DYK is welcome. :) <font face="Verdana"> Durova  279 18:00, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

May we have a re-blanking of this, please? <font face="Verdana"> Durova 279 21:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No, Durova is pursueing this matter to cause increased drama, even to the extent now of following me to my talk. She knows my feelings very well. Giano (talk) 21:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Regular Wikipedian procedure is to make a request directly before bringing it to an admin board. <font face="Verdana"> Durova 279 21:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec) You're planning to bring that to this board again, Durova? Please just desist and leave the man alone, because this is beginning to look like harassment. There isn't any rule that says it's obligatory to shake hands with you. Bishonen | talk 21:54, 17 July 2009 (UTC).
 * I think Durova is making a perfectly reasonable request considering that she supported your unblock. My advice to you Giano is to swallow your dam pride as speedily as you did with the advisory committee, blank your post and move on.  « l | ?romethean ™ | l »   (talk) 21:46, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Certainly not. I have not touched the post since yesterday - if others have played about with it then really it has become their post. So I suggest you take your problems to them - not me. And please stop stirring and baiting about the advisory committee or you may find yourself banned.Giano (talk) 21:51, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Dearest Giano, I wish to inform you that I find it rather hypocritical of you threatening bans for "stirring" when it would seem you are the grand wizard at it. Forgive me if my best Giano impersonation wasn't up to scratch  « l | ?romethean ™ | l »   (talk) 21:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Just do your research, stop attacking and we'll get on fine. Giano (talk) 22:02, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed.  « l | ?romethean ™ | l »   (talk) 22:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Anyone here speak Turkish or Armenian
no admin action needed, just a little help... Carlossuarez46 (talk) 16:55, 17 July 2009 (UTC) I am attempting on Turkish Van and Talk:Turkish Van (it's a moggy, not a motor vehicle) to engage in discussion with User:Zara-arush, who is I believe Armenian. He says on his userpage that he has professional level english, but this is wildly optimistic, and I have spent the last three days trying to explain why his content is (a) not intelligible in english or (b) not properly referenced. Compare my version of the legend of the coat colour with his version, which is the second time he's included it. I'm getting about a one word in three level of what he's saying to me, he's probably only getting the same from me. For the reference thing, I've tried pointing him at the page in Turkish, but as he's Armenian I've probably mortally offended him doing so, and he's still posting unreadable content with malformed references that don't support what he's saying. Any suggestions as to where I might find someone better able to communicate?--Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:17, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This isn't the place to post this, but have you tried inquiring at WikiProject Turkey and WikiProject Armenia - I think that there are fluent participants at those wikiprojects. Next, time tty our help desk- it may give you faster response than here. Cheers and good luck. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 16:55, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * thanks. Didn't know where to ask - I'll nip over and see if anyone there can help.  Thanks again--Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Threat to prosecute if an image is modified
File:Aryavarta wiki.jpg - the summary says "Author: Russell Spence; Source: Own-work based on latest research on Archaeogenetics of South East Asia, and research on the Indus Script. Modifications will invite prosecution." He also has a copyright notice on the image, which is against our guidelines. (I also get tired of these editor-created maps which are virtually always OR, which we wouldn't allow in text). Dougweller (talk) 16:32, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The image should certainly not be used anywhere – apart from being problematic in copyright terms, as you say, it's also shamelessly tendentious POV-pushing/OR in favour of a fringe theory. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:36, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC with Fut Perf) I would say that you need to tag the image for speedy deletion here. The summary is CLEARLY incompatable with CC-BY-SA since it expressly does not allow for modifying the image. Also, not all editor-created maps are OR or incompatable with text; I know of some VERY good cartographers at Wikipedia who do scrupulously document their sources. If you need maps, I can certainly hook you up with some of these. As far as the legal threat issue. Meh. I'm for WP:IAR/WP:DOLT on this one. If needed, we could direct the user to WP:NLT at the same time as our WP:IUP policy to be sure they understand WHY such comments are inappropriate. (after EC) With regards to Fut Perf's concerns; they may be valid, but this should be deleted on improper lisencing grounds alone... If the user is advancing original research or fringe theories per WP:UNDUE then those problems can be dealt with seperately. --Jayron32. talk . say no to drama 16:41, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Gave notice. <font color="#CC0000">seicer &#x007C; <font color="#669900">talk  &#x007C; <font color="#669900">contribs  16:38, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * (with everyone it seems) Thanks. I've raised the issue of user created maps at NORN, maybe I should raise it on the policy talk page. As for the watermark, our guidlines at WP:IUP say "user-created images should not be watermarked, distorted, have any credits in the image itself or anything else that would hamper their free use". Dougweller (talk) 17:15, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

User Maxframe's conduct
I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up already, but Maxframe has been involved in an edit war on the Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories page by continually adding fringe conspiracy theories riddled with angry exclamations in all caps, all of which have been reverted. He has also been leaving angry comments on the user pages of those who have reverted his edits  and, which he did after he was warned about it. I'm not sure if yelling his propaganda at editors is considered a personal attack, but I calmly explained to him twice why it is inappropriate, which he has ignored. Can anything be done? <font face="Helvetica"> [mad pierrot] [t   c]  16:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought there was a ONE-revert limit on the Obama articles? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:24, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Via ArbCom, Stevertigo, Sceptre, ChildofMidnight, Scjessey, and Grundle2600 were handed 1RR/week restrictions project-wide. As far as I know there is no blanket 1RR in the topic area. Tarc (talk) 18:38, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess I should ask is repeatedly using all caps words considered a personal attack? I have always interpreted it as yelling. <font face="Helvetica"> [mad pierrot]  [t   c]  18:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It is somewhat dickish, but probably not a literal personal attack. Regardless of the tone, the stubborn insistence on claiming worldnetdaily and Taitz's personal blog as reliable sources is disruptive enough, IMO. Tarc (talk) 18:55, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * More interesting is that he made 3 edits 2 years ago, and then nothing until yesterday. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I have left a message on the user talk page informing his about the article probation. I assume that if he continues to edit-war after fair warning, he will be topic-banned or blocked. Abecedare (talk) 19:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Aghajani Kashmeri
User:John Carter told me to come here, so if I'm in the wrong place, its his fault. I found this article, Aghajani Kashmeri. The main author, User:Kashmeri is using redirects to make his user talk page redirect to the article's talk page, and his userpage redirect to the article page. He then, within the article..well I can't explain it, so I'll just quote: "I (Zuhair Kashmeri, son and author of this article) remember sitting with luminaries such as Begum Akhtar, the famous ghazal singer, Josh Malihabadi, the poet, Munnawar Agha Manju, a humorous poet, Rajinder Krishan, songwriter and poet, etc." Remember, that was in the article. So I don't know what to do about this. Help. <font color="Green" face="High Tower Text">Spongefrog, <font color="blue" face="High Tower Text">(talk to me, or else)  18:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think he did it on purpose; it happened when he used his user page as a sandbox for an article, and moved it to article space. All it needs is an admin to move the talk page back to user talk space (A bot came along and made it impossible for non-admins to do). The article issues are someting anyone can deal with. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll finish cleaning it up later, but will need an admin to do that thing you said. <font color="Green" face="High Tower Text">Spongefrog, <font color="blue" face="High Tower Text">(talk to me, or else)  18:11, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Please block me
Dear admins, May I please ask you to block me indefinitely, with revoking the privilege of editing my user pages and disabling my email. Please loose no time to understand my request. I cannot understand it myself. Please just do as I ask. Thank you for your time.--Mbz1 (talk) 19:41, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why? Theresa Knott &#124; token threats 19:46, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It's a pointless time-waste to do such things. If you don't want to use Wikipedia for the moment, there is a "log out" button in the upper right corner of the screen.  This has the added advantages of 1) nobody else has to do work to make this happen, and 2) you can log back in whenever you want.  Friday (talk) 19:49, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, we don't do that, it never ends well. Try WikiProject User scripts/Scripts/WikiBreak Enforcer instead--<font color="Blue">Jac <font color="Green">16888 Talk 19:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Indefinitely blocked per request. Either the request is valid, or the account has been compromised - either way warrants an indefinite block. However, I declined to protect the talk page or disable email. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  19:54, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No it does not! What were you thinking? Theresa Knott &#124; token threats 19:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Uh, I have no idea how to answer your question. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  19:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Good call. There's no reason blocks shouldn't be doled out on request. Once, anyway. If the user was EUI, s/he may request an unblock via the normal process. It's also worth noting a current thread with the same comment on the Commons version of AN. → ROUX   ₪  20:06, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Hello. Please be aware that Wikipedia administrators will only block users if: Hopefully that helps! — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 20:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * A) The editor is disrupting Wikipedia
 * D) The editor is violating policies and guidelines.
 * C) The editor has been banned by the community, Jimbo Wales, or the Arbitration Committee.
 * D) The editor has violated an editing restriction by the community or the Arbitration Committee.
 * And more can be found at the blocking policy
 * Wait. Don't block him. He could be drunk or EUI (no, I'm not an admin, but nobody thought of this yet. Sorry). <font color="Green" face="High Tower Text">Spongefrog, <font color="blue" face="High Tower Text">(talk to me, or else)  20:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Neither am I. I'm just a regular editor (and rollbacker) who just happened to show up here. — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 20:05, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I saw no reason not to conform with this request, and especially if the account is compromised, as is a very real possibility, given the "block me and lock everything down" nature of the request. Talk page remains enabled; when he iether changes his mind or regains control of the account, the situation can be reinvestigated. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  20:06, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Except it's always been protocol to not block people on their whim. If they just needed a wikibreak, now they have a tarnished block log. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 20:07, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * FWIW, the proscription of self-requested blocks was removed from the policy almost nine months ago. ÷seresin 20:20, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And see the relevant discussion here. — Satori Son 20:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Also what if the autoblocker kicks in and blocks someone else who edits using the same IP? Theresa Knott &#124; token threats 20:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Now I can agree with that concern. I have removed the autoblock. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  20:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

→Non-admins can comment here? The page name is a bit misleading. I actually agree with Tanthalas now. Especially since the user said "please loose [sic] no time". BUT this could also mean the compromiser of the account wrote that, to get the real account owner blocked. It's probably safer just to block for now. <font color="Green" face="High Tower Text">Spongefrog, <font color="blue" face="High Tower Text">(talk to me, or else)  20:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC) If it is a compromised account, then they still have e-mail/talkpage if they manage to regain control of their account, otherwise they'll have to create a new user, which they would have had to do anyway - Kingpin13 (talk) 20:30, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * never mind, this was after 3 edit conflicts. <font color="Green" face="High Tower Text">Spongefrog, <font color="blue" face="High Tower Text">(talk to me, or else)  20:14, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, non-admins can comment here. The page name is because it's for bringing incidents to admin eyes. But that doesn't mean only admins get to give their input. - Kingpin13 (talk) 20:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That's true. — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 20:23, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I was thinking the same thing as Spongefrog - that the user might have done this as a way to get someone else blocked. Another possibility is that the account is compromised and that someone else asked for it to be blocked - but if it's compromised, it should be blocked anyway. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 20:24, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * True, and mainly because of that I disagree that this user should be blocked. They claim that it's because they are addicted to editing, and need to get away from Wikipedia. That's what the wikibreakEnforcer is for, not what admin's blocking abilities are for.
 * I don't see any harm with the block having been done, although I think I would have told the user he needed to answer Theresa's "Why?" first. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 20:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec) That's totally against every precedent I've seen for blocks. I guess we're setting a new precedent, then, and admins are going to be now tasked with ensuring that people get away from the keyboard / do their homework / get a life, now? Bad idea. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No, as long as this isn't done again... Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 20:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Like what? — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 20:43, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I've made a similar request in the past. One time I asked administrator to block me for a half-hour as a test, but the conclusion of the discussion was that the test not be made. (see here). — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 20:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Normally I agree with Tan - it could have been compromised. However, the talkpage specifically says he's semi-retired from sometime ago.  At that point, we simply show him how to scramble his password, and leave him alone until he requests a password fix. ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 20:37, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That would be a good nota bene for future such requests. I don't see any harm with this one. Scrambling the password has essentially the same practical effect as an indef-block combined with not being able to edit his talk page. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 22:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Just a comment, but I doubt the account is compromised. Looking at the slightly broken English (no disrespect intended to Mbz1) from historical diffs and comparing the languge style to the above request and current talk page comments I am sure this editor is in control of their account. As to the block, well whilst there are other ways to stop editing, maybe we need to accept that sometimes editors will only "accept" a block as a route if they really do need to get away from WP (which is indicated here). I'm no psychologist but even I can see that's pretty likely. I don't see any need to start having a go at Tan over his actions here which he has explained clearly. Pedro : Chat  21:32, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No one is "having a go" at Tan here. I have the utmost respect for Tan as an admin but disagree that blocking the account was the best course of action.That's not having a go. Theresa Knott &#124; token threats
 * Please, Theresa, keep your bile at arms length and assume good faith - at what point did I say YOU were "having a go"? No doubt you will stump up the diff or retract your comment... Pedro :  Chat  23:07, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * WTF? What bile? Theresa Knott &#124; token threats 23:15, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * WTF? No diff? Let's take it to our talk pages Theresa. Pedro : Chat  23:16, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I see no harm in giving them what they ask for, now that Tan has changed the autoblock setting. I'd always wondered about the rationale behind the "no self-requested blocks" policy; if anything, blocking on request prevents the logical next step, which is continuous vandalism until blocked. Glad to see it was changed, I hadn't noticed that. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Is this really an issue? Things like this don't always fit a nice and tidy rule. That's the way it works in dealing with humans. Sometimes compliance with these requests is warranted; sometimes it's not. What harm was done by complying? If I had the tools, I'd have done the same thing as Tan, for the same reason. --Elliskev 22:47, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you think this should be marked as "resolved"? — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 22:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. With the reasoning, "Typical ANI endless discussion" --Elliskev 22:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment addition - It should be resolved by an admin, however. --Elliskev 23:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Note - For context, see and . The account's definitely not compromised. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 23:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I had read those before commenting. I concluded that they were irrelevant out of respect to the requesting editor. The requesting editor asked that the reasons not be considered. Hurt feelings aren't healed by having them aired to the world. --Elliskev 23:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Requested blocks should not be done. Prodego  <sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk  23:11, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why not? Not to be abrasive, but seriously - what's the issue with them? Granted, however, that we probably need to take this to WT:BLOCK for a decent discussion and not here. Pedro : Chat  23:15, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This discussion might make sense at WT:BLOCK, but it's irrelevant here. --Elliskev 23:16, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * OH. Yeah. I concur with User:Pedro. --Elliskev 23:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh. I agree with Pedro's sentiments to the letter. So much so I almost posted a similar message, but it's late and I couldn;t be bothered to type it out. We don't, but is there an actual reason why not? A le_Jrb <sup style="color:blue;">talk  23:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you read WP:BLOCK? Where in that does it say that blocks are to be applied on request? Or you proposing that administrators should just make up the rules as they see fit? --Malleus Fatuorum 23:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Proposed closure
I am proposing that this be marked as resolved.

I would like to continue on for the fun of it, but I do think we should not be focusing so much on this when we've already discussed it for too long. — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 23:05, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I think that everything that can be said probably has been. The fact that the discussion now has got to the point where personal attacks are being added (which I removed) shows that it should probably be closed. Theresa Knott &#124; token threats 23:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice. --Elliskev 23:16, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Above was a response to the removed attack. Not to Theresa Knott. For the record... --Elliskev 23:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn't notice your response before I removed the attack. Theresa Knott &#124; token threats 23:25, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Notice: I have started a discussion at WT:BLOCK regarding this. I think it's worth some input. --Elliskev 00:17, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Disruptive canvassing by User:Sarandioti
I have recently proposed that the article on Chameria be merged into that of Cham Albanians. User:Sarandioti has taken it upon himself to notify his fellow Albanian editors. Since all three of these editors are national-advocacy SPAs with a checkered past, I believe this constitutes disruptive canvassing. This user has a history of nationalist edit-warring, tendentious editing, an extremely confrontational, battleground mentality, and is in general highly disruptive, as evidenced [here] (and i can supply many more examples if necessary). Any help would be greatly appreciated. --Athenean (talk) 22:24, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I worry that he might try to turn that accusation back on you now, though I see exactly where you're coming from. ninety:one 22:33, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I did not invite or do anything like that. As most of them had participated in a previous discussion for an article merge related to this one, I simply notified them for our new discussion on this new issue, which is related to our previous discussion in which most of them participated. The same thing you Athenean did here,. I don't know what gave you this wrong impression. And JDelanoy clarified to me that I should discuss issues, which I do as you can see. I would appreciate it if you apologized. --Sarandioti (talk) 22:35, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

STOP. Good. Theresa Knott &#124; token threats 22:38, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'm glad that this misunderstanding was solved.--Sarandioti (talk) 22:43, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Obama article probation violated
Barack Obama is under article probation according to you. Please ban Good Damon for removing valid comments from the article talk page. This kind of behaviour is completely unacceptable. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABarack_Obama&diff=302543600&oldid=302542344 Calmano (talk) 04:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I usually just read but sawthis —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calmano (talk • contribs) 04:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd advise you in future to portray a situation you bring here in a neutral fashion. Giving the impression that you were a simple, casual reader who was strolling along and OMG OBAMA PROBATION VIOLATION LOOK I CAN SEE HIM REVERT SOMEONES EDIT is not an honest thing to do when it was your edit. Ironholds (talk) 07:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The discussion I re-closed was one of the many instances of trolling and quackery that shows up on that talk page. Frankly, I'm surprised that a brand-new account's first few edits show such a startling familiarity with the admins, processes, and template syntax used on Wikipedia. In any event, while I do not believe re-closing the discussion in question was an error at all, Calmano apparently believes it was such a grievous one that the user's 5th edit was to instruct User:Mailer diablo to ban me. I kinda think that one speaks for itself. -- Good Damon 07:54, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I collapsed it because it was obviously a returning editor, with a note showing great familiarity with the likely results of such trolling. The comment, and calmano's later, are of the 'I heard/read it somewhere, so it has to go in like I think I remember it or else that's proof there's a conspiracy' sort. That's not sufficient for changing the article ,and it's often, as in this case, already covered in the article in sufficient, or summary, style. The Obama article daily sees POV pushing from far right wing or racist editors upset that Obama's been elected, (illegally, they like to allege), or that he's black, or that a black man got illegally elected (this is usually the case). As such, collapsing these is the best solution, because it doesnt' blank the troll, but shows it's been read and moved past. Send such editors to Conservapedia. ThuranX (talk) 04:19, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Please also note the other Obama section below. Wouldn't be surprised if there's a connection. ThuranX (talk) 04:23, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Usernames
How are the usernames User:CigarAmbassador, User:Dead-dog-135, and User:Putputpoo not violations of the username policy? Iowateen (talk) 03:35, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * How are they violations of the username policy? Algebraist 03:36, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Offensive usernames: Dead dog. Offensive usernames: Cigar. Disruptive usernames: poo. The users that checked these said that they aren't violations. Iowateen (talk) 03:39, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * How can 'poo' cause disruption? And who is offended by 'dead dog' or by 'cigar'? Algebraist 03:41, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Usernames with stuff like poo are usually used for vandalism (the account has only two vandalism edits also). Dog lovers would be offended by dead dog. Cigars are drugs. Iowateen (talk) 03:43, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You are also not an admin. Iowateen (talk) 03:46, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Neither are you. Do you have a point with this observation? Algebraist 03:47, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. I'm requesting a reply from an admin hence the title of the page. Iowateen (talk) 03:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "Poo" seems entirely inoffensive in this case. One of my dogs is right next to me and neither she nor I are offended by the name.  And cigars aren't drugs. Anybody can comment here - you're not an admin either. Maybe you should stay away from the user creation queue?   Acroterion  (talk)  03:49, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec) For what it's worth, one of the most respected neuroscientists in this country is named Mu-Ming Poo. One should be careful about these things. (And I'm not an admin either.) Looie496 (talk) 03:50, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * So I can't ask a question without people treating me like crap. Iowateen (talk) 03:55, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Your posts at UAA were handled appropriately by the reviewing administrators. Please do not forum-shop, and please do not assume bad faith of new users or treat non-administrators as second-class citizens.   Acroterion  (talk)  03:57, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Stop assuming bad faith. Iowateen (talk) 03:58, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * People didn't start getting huffy until you got huffy about not getting a response from an admin. Until then we simply disagreed with you respectfully. (Admins are often hard to come by on Friday night, by the way -- they're busy handling the drunken vandals.) Regards, Looie496 (talk) 03:59, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I know that it's possible for anyone to make mistakes, I don't know what forum shopping is, I thought the usernames were against the guidelines, and I thought that only admins could reply to questions in ANI. People that get blocked for inappropiate usernames are able to change them. Iowateen (talk) 04:02, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The names aren't offensive. Use WP:UAA in the future. This matter is closed... Prodego  <sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk  04:04, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I did use that and I thought that the admins possibily made a mistake so I brought it here which is what was already said. Iowateen (talk) 04:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hence my comment on forum-shopping. We're done here.   Acroterion  (talk)  04:07, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hence I don't know what forum shopping is. Iowateen (talk) 04:08, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Getting an answer you don't like in one place and trying for a different one somewhere else.  Acroterion  (talk)  04:09, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Massive AWB use to remove image placeholders
is removing hundreds or thousands of image placeholders. Another editor and I have expressed our concern about this, asking for a reference to a discussion on the subject. Can we revoke his AWB rights till he answers? Do you perhaps have other suggestions? Debresser (talk) 16:31, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Short answer: No, admins are approved by default. Long answer: I left this message on his talk page - if this task has consensus, you should file a BRFA so the edits can be done with a bot flag, if this task doesn't have consensus...well, then you shouldn't be doing it! =) He's not presently editing, so no immediate action is required, but I think a BRFA would be Stephen's best bet. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 16:36, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It actually appears there may be some consensus for this.
 * File talk:Replace this image_female.svg
 * Centralized discussion/Image placeholders/Archive 1
 * Centralized discussion/Image placeholders
 * Bots/Requests for approval/AmeliorationBot 2
 * While there isn't a clear consensus to remove the images, it appears there is one that they shouldn't actually be used.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, there's loose consensus not to continue adding it, but doesn't that final link somewhat prove that removing the image en masse doesn't enjoy consensus? –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 16:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec)I've been removing the image placeholders when I come accross them as well. Mainly I've based the removal on this conversation, which states at the top:


 * "From 11 April to 23 April 2008, a centralized discussion considered the appropriateness of using "from-owner" image placeholders on biographies of living persons. A carefully structured discussion clarified the objections to this practice as well as its benefits. There was significant opposition to the use of images such as Replace this image female and Replace this image male. 35 editors (66%) agreed with the question, "placeholder images should not be used at all on the main page of articles", however, only 14 editors (45%) agreed with any particular recommendation".


 * Although I do think they look slightly garish myself, I have no strong aversion to them and was removing them based on what appeared to be concensus that they should not be used. Perhaps there is a more recent discussion that I missed? ponyo (talk) 16:45, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That bot request above was more recent, and it seems that the main objection was that there were too many ways for the bot to break things. I would urge that these removals not be reverted until a consensus to put them back in is obtained, since the consensus for having them there seems weak-to-nonexistent.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:48, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If consensus truly exists for these not to appear on articles, could we not just replace the image with a single transparent pixel? –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk  16:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I hate those bloody single-pixel images. Let's not, and say we didn't....--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * On the one hand, I'm a touch uncomfortable seeing AWB used for anything that even smells a smidge controversial. On the other hand, there seems to be consensus that these images shouldn't be used (I say that having supported their use, previously, mind you). It was a good experiment, but hasn't worked out as well as we hoped it might. If there's consensus not to use them, why on earth wouldn't we remove them? – Luna Santin  (talk) 21:36, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Uh, because we like arguing about whether or not to remove them? ;-) -- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  21:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Mhm, it seems to be a catch-22 situation. No consensus to add them, no consensus to remove them. I support the removal, though if someone wants to edit war to keep the placeholder on I'm not gonna bother reverting the guy, it's a silly thing to edit war over. Wizardman  21:44, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Respectfully disagree, part of the non-consensus here is that they do work. Some see them as ugly, a POV and style issue IMHO, but they remain in the area of things we wish we had a better alternative for so leave them until we do. I like them and wouldn't use them if they didn't work. Until a better alternative - likely an image not seen as "ugly" - is produced there seems not overwhelming consensus to remove them. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   21:45, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Indeed, have you read the anecdotal evidence at User talk:Stephen? "I work WP:OTRS, and we get several image submissions per day, almost all of which are for articles with the placeholder image. It really does work for getting us free images. Sandstein  15:17, 14 July 2009 (UTC) " –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk  21:47, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Precisely. No consensus to add means: don't add any more. no consensus to remove means: don't remove them either. C'est simple. Debresser (talk) 22:10, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not exactly, I see no directive or concensus to forbid adding them, that would seem to be the same reason there is no consensus for removing them. There is just general dislike of their appearance from everything I've read. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   22:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with them? Is it that they're an embarassing reminder of wikipedia's schizoid attitude towards fair use? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:25, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol. I used to be bitter a bit as well, the goal is to produce free content for the world so really, ultimately, we want free images with no fair use requirements. Those can be seen worldwide whereas everything else gets masked in various ways. As our uploading images protocols is overhauled and more images are uploaded to commons the tide will change. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   03:32, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Having the sihouettes there might at least encourage someone to go get their Brownie and do a little celebrity-stalking. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 04:05, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately that centralised discussion got rather disjointed and highjacked but there was a very promising solution evolving out of the discussion before the politics tired us out and the solution lost momentum. It was the The text placeholder solution illustrated here. <font style="color:darkblue; font-variant: small-caps;">Double <font style="color:blue; font-variant: small-caps;">Blue (talk) 04:23, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Personally I wouldn't have supported that as a solution, it uses a small line of text, and in that example is rather lost in the shuffle. I think the placeholders work because they are obvious and seen by all who look at the article. I also believe they may help inspire folks to contribute who may not think of that as an option. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   05:23, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The silhouette seems like a better answer - it tells the viewer that we would like a photo but we don't have one. It's like IMDB uses. Unless we're consciously trying to avoid looking like IMDB. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 07:53, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I think the above shows that there still is some discussion needed on this issue. So maybe we can consider the following as what to do next: This way, we can avoid cries of "stop him, there is no consensus!" and maybe settle the question once and for all. Even if said proposed RFC does result in "no consensus", we will have a result that allows us to deal with such situations in the future. Talking about the issue itself here will not yield any productive results and Stephen seems to have stopped to allow discussion to take place, so there is no further need for ANI discussion. Regards  So Why  08:08, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) All editors are reminded not to remove those placeholders for now until community has decided that this is indeed consensus
 * 2) A new RFC is opened to discuss the pros and cons of those images which is advertised to the wider community using a watchlist notice. The RFC should include the question whether removal of those images should be sought.
 * 3) If (and only if) the RFC shows that there is indeed consensus for those removals, then a bot account will be requested to remove those images.


 * Hi, I am a WP:OTRS volunteer who occasionally works the photo submission queue. I can attest that these placeholders are very successful at getting us free photographs. We get on the order of several dozens of photograph submissions per week for articles that have such placeholders. That's why I consider it disruptive to remove all these images without consensus. I propose that a bot revert these removals and I agree that we should have a RfC on the question whether we want such placeholders and whether they should be automatically added to or removed from articles.  Sandstein   08:55, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * A bot wouldn't be necessary, one could use mass rollback; with the caveat that it would also roll back the cosmetic changes made. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 12:46, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * (I feel a bit bad for not knowing how to use mass rollback despite having been an admin for 3+ years). Per WP:BRD, I suggest to mass-revert all these changes and to ask Stephen to find more support for his actions first. Kusma (talk) 14:08, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * See here. Probably best to enter a rollback edit summary before doing it: User:Mr.Z-man/rollbackSummary.js. –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 14:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Anyways, Steven shouldn't be making mass rollbacks of already existing placeholders, it's true that there is enough consensus to stop using new ones, but I don't that think that there is enough to remove then en masse, since the BAG request to remove them did not get enough consensus. If a bot request gets denied the permission to perform a certain removal, then an editor with a semi-automated shouldn't go and perform the exact same task --Enric Naval (talk) 07:24, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Mass rollback to restore placeholder?
I don't really have an opinion one way or the other, I can, however, use mass-rollback to restore these placeholders, with the above-noted caveat that cosmetic changes made in conjunction with the removal will be rolled back as well. Thoughts? –<b style="font-family:verdana; color:black;">xeno</b><sup style="color:black; font-family:verdana;">talk 14:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd support it based on the fact that it would send a strong signal to every user not to make potentially controversial edits automated on a larger scale. If we just sit back and say "oh well, now it has already happened", we invite people to do similar things because they will not have to worry to be reverted... On the other hand, that would be quite many edits to rollback and as such, potentially, an unneeded drain on our servers that might be re-reversed if a consensus is found to allow such removals. I think the best course of action will be to quickly establish any kind of preliminary consensus by asking for input at multiple venues at the same time. Regards  So Why  21:28, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd support mass rollback as well.  Sandstein   07:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

DDo it, I personally detest mass edits like these without support. Viridae Talk 07:29, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Per Sandstein, support rollback. Garion96 (talk) 23:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Support rollback, I saw some removals on articles on my watchlist. Darrenhusted (talk) 23:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If there's a consensus not to add them, rolling back would be adding against that consensus. What's the harm in leaving them be? There seems to have been no edit wars started and only rehash drama that has already been debated by those who care about the issue (rather than the drama, here). Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:07, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Consensus is imho that no new ones should be added but that old ones should not be removed either. So this rollback-proposal would only restore the previous (consensus) status-quo. Otherwise people could break this consensus and get away with it because others cannot revert them without breaking consensus themselves. This cannot be our goal, can it? Regards  So Why  09:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I see no consensus whatsoever against adding "new" ones. I do see rough consensus that for people who died before photography came into wider use they could be removed but certainly not for living people. I also see a general consensus that they aren't ideal but until a better placeholder image is created that these are the best we have, i notice they have been redesigned and discussed extensively in the past to improve their appearance. -- <u style="font-size:14px; font-family: cursive;color:#8000FF">Banj e  <u style="font-size:14px;font-family: Zapfino, sans-serif;color:deeppink">b oi   20:33, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hence I think we should have a new RFC on the issue. I just don't think I am able to create one that people understand, else I'd have done so. ;-) Regards  So Why  09:45, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

These images are ugly, disruptive and overwhelmingly unwanted, and I've never seen any evidence that pages on which they're present have a notably better record of getting properly-licensed images added to them than articles that don't have these on them do. And the idea that they shouldn't be added to new articles, but should still be left on old articles to which they have previously been added, is hardly any sort of defined consensus — at best, it's a quirky, hairsplitting interpretation of the fact that there isn't a strong consensus for either using them or removing them. And the idea that a person can't use AWB to make an edit they'd be perfectly within their right to make manually is also a non-starter — either these are always okay or they never are, no in between. If they are okay, then they should continue to be used on new articles — and if they're not okay, then they shouldn't be on old ones and it doesn't matter what tool an editor uses to remove them. Bearcat (talk) 02:20, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Bearcat, especially the first sentence, which aptly puts the points against placeholders. Macdonald-ross (talk) 11:06, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, there was a centralized discussion which concluded that these image place holders should be removed last year. Nobody has ever gotten around to removing them though until now. See Centralized discussion/Image placeholders.Plumadesabiduría (talk) 14:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

New RfC
If I had seen those discussions I would said that placing placeholder images is a standard measure to make people want to replace them. And here I see also Sandstein's comment as an OTRS volunteer that they work. And we all want the articles to have free images. Dunno why people dislike them so much, but they seem to be effective in improving the encyclopedia, but the discussion already closed months ago.... How about we make a new RfC, but this time we ask the OTRS to make a measurement of the effectiviness of the placeholders, so we base our decision in real data and not in how ugly we find the placeholders to be, and we ask people if they would accept the placeholder if it simply looked cooler? --Enric Naval (talk) 07:24, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

sockpuppetry/meatpuppetry/COI/physical threats
i don't know where to start. User:Avianraptor claims to be a student of Frank Dux, ninja extraordinaire. He is probably teh article subject in question, but the more important thing right now is that he's making | threats of physical violence. He also appears to be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/76.121.103.42, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Oni.maru53, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Publius352, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Pamela_lee33, based on the similar vernacular, and the fact that they are all SPA's that only edit Frank Dux. Theserialcomma (talk) 19:15, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Report him to WP:AIV for those things, and they should cool his jets in short order. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 20:06, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Indef'ed. I saw this on AIV but came here to see the genus of the complaint. Let me know if the other accounts start making the same kind of noises. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not again. We don't care if Bruce Springsteen is his shidoshi. MuZemike 20:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Disclaimer: I met Mr. (er... Colonel) Dux IRL on one occasion, years ago.  He's a bit of a self-promoter, and I don't condone threats of legal action or violence, but I can't blame him for being irate with the state of his bio.  Though there are some solid references, much of it is sourced to self-published material or primary-source court rulings.  It could do with a bit of editing from those versed in BLP problems.  Skinwalker (talk) 03:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC) refactored Skinwalker (talk) 22:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you think he might also become irate at being called "a douche and a self-promoter"? In what way is that less of a BLP violation than much of the nonsense in the article itself? Risker (talk) 05:43, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, I have refactored. I meant to convey to non-specialists the general regard of the martial arts community for this person, which came across as a poor rhetorical flourish.  Skinwalker (talk) 22:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, let me weigh in here, as I have become the focus of User:Avianraptor's ire and the focus of what I strongly suspect are two of his sock puppets. First thing today, User:Avianraptor posted this to me: "Yeah and the other hand will be going up side your head if you don't start talking to me with a little respect you worthless little prick.". Serialcomma came along and removed a large chunk of the exchange. Soon after, a new account User:Justice4allseeker registered (45 minutes after Avianraptor was indef blocked) and jumped in, claiming I removed this and was somehow involved in a big conspiracy to supress something I had no involvement in editing in the first place. After I denied remving anything (which is clear in the diffs) and asked for an apology, yet another SPA User:76.22.87.15 comes along and claims I am really a sockpuppet of serialcomma (or vice versa). Comma's account is over a year old and there is no similarity in the articles or really even the types of articles we edit. I invite anyone to compare them and see if there is even a passing similarity. I am considering going through the tedious process of a SPI and I invited Avianraptor/Justice4allseeker/76.22.87.15 to do the same because I know I have nothing to worry about. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * And now he is back as User:Avianraptor2 telling us "By the way, expect Avianraptor 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 etc.....I'll keep coming back until you people listen." He also offers the venerable "I am not Avianraptor. He did use my computer to bring this matter to my attention..." as a defense to him not being User:Justice4allseeker. Niteshift36 (talk) 12:55, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I would suggest a checkuser to determine if a rangeblock is possible.—  Dæ dαlus <sup style="color:green;">Contribs  07:28, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Obama article needs administrator supervision
I made a valid suggestion to the Barack Obama article. His Illinois senate history is very sparse. All other articles have a campaign section. Obama's senate campaign was very controversial since he had all his opponents removed from the ballot. This should be described in a brief and neutral way. To refuse to have it is like refusing to have a section on his presidential campaign or refusing to mention the George W. Bush 2000 election controversy, an act of omission.

The point isn't debating inclusion in this board. The point is that enforcement of the probation is necessary.

ThuranX has collapsed all discussion into a box. GoodDamon removed someones comments (Calman), which is very unethical and acts to silence discussion.

Iniclusion of the edit is not the point of this board. The point is that removal of valid comments is worse than vandalism and vandalism results in block. So ThuranX and GoodDamon should both be blocked for at least 48 hours and prohibited from making more trouble at the Obama board. I am annoyed more at the process (or lack of process) rather than whether to add the proposed edit or not. Chase me dinosaurs, I&#39;m an insect (talk) 19:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Please read the FAQ on the article talk page. And could all the new accounts popping up to complain about the lack of information on how many babies Obama eats daily please keep it all in one incident report? -- Good Damon 19:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You beat me to it. As with Maxframe, this guy had literally a handful of edits a year or two ago and then suddenly turned up on this subject yesterday. Wow, man, it's like deja vu. Wow, man, it's like deja vu. The very same thing happened in early March when the WND siege occurred - a number of sleeper accounts suddenly got active again. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 19:35, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Excuse me my esteemed colleagues, there is an extremely accurate article on President Barack Hussein Obama at our conservative comrades' website, Conservapedia. I suggest to all users who are dissatisfied with the blatent, disgusting, and smelly liberal bias that Wikipedia obviously has towards our so called "president" of the so called "United" States of America, go to this article and submit the brilliant journalism of dentists there. <font face="Helvetica"> [mad pierrot]  [t   c]  19:51, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know which is worse - you're calling a conservative wiki's article on a liberal-leaning President extremely accurate, or you're saying it with a straight face. -<font color="32CD32">Jeremy <font color="4682B4">(v^_^v Tear him for his bad verses!) 20:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Just trying to lighten the mood :-P. And that article made me want to vomit. So does that entire website really... <font face="Helvetica"> [mad pierrot]  [t   c]  20:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And it id - the conservapedia article is the funniest thing I have seen there XD Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ever try looking through the "references" at the bottom of the Obama page there? Some of them are just standard conservative newspapers, but there are a lot of references to things like Free Republic forums, LittleGreenFootballs, and Michelle Malkin. Surprisingly, there's even a DailyKos blog post in there. -- Good Damon 22:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and check out this reliable source! Obama apparently doesn't stand a chance in the Presidential election as long as he goes up against '"Sarah Barracuda," captain of the Wasilla High state basketball champs.' -- Good Damon 22:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The problem remains. There is no civil discussion. Those who did wrong are accusing me of popping up after a year. (FYI, someone called me a sock last year, that other "Chase me ladies" user. That soured my taste of Wikipedia so I kept reading but did not edit). That shows that WP doesn't solve the problem but attacks the editor making the comment. So incivility again.

The solution is that ALL editors editing Obama should know that the article is on probation so ALL must show their best behavior. Collapsing comments and deleting comments and calling others socks worsens the problem. That's why the article is bad. Thugs chase away others.

So again, an administrator should uphold the article probation and stop all editors who are not at their best behaviour. In this case, it ThuranX and GoodDamon have acted less than honourably...in fact, horribly. Only when everyone is a diplomat, is ethical, and discusses will Obama article probation stand a chance.

In fact, I am so fed up with this bullying that I am quitting WP for the time being. Troublemakers, you have won. I am quitting for now but reserve the right to edit. Chase me dinosaurs, I&#39;m an insect (talk) 23:28, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The Obama article has seen frequent disruptive behavior, enough so that part of the probation -- of which I'm fully aware, thank you -- is the swift removal of trolling discussions. There is no requirement that editors have to discuss Obama's mafia-like influence over politics in Chicago, his foreign birth, his atheistic Muslim religion, his refusal to say the Pledge of Allegiance, his distaste for Mom and apple pie, his love of terrorists, his hatred of America, or the souls he obliterates with his laser eyes. In all seriousness, his time in the Senate is covered in detail in a sub-article, and the campaign itself is covered in another one. There's no point in duplicating existing articles in what's already a summary style family of articles that is absolutely enormous. I stand by my decision to close that pointless argument. -- Good Damon 23:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Chase me dinosaurs, as an uninvolved observer in this, ah, conflict, I must point out that dramatically flouncing off ("That's it! I'm quitting! You win! My hand's on the doorknob! Don't try to stop me, my mind's made up, I'm going!", etc.) seldom ever accomplishes anything productive. It might also be worth your while to consider that if it seems everyone's against you, it might be because your view does not accord with the consensus view. —<span style="font:bold 11px Arial;display:inline;border:#151B8D 1px solid;background-color:#FFFF00;padding:0 4px 0 4px;">Scheinwerfermann T&middot;C 13:04, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Infonerd2216's personal attacks and incivility
Infonerd2216 was unblocked last month after an indefinite ban on the condition that they adhere to WP:SOCK and WP:CIVIL (see block log or ), but the latter has been breached. —<font face="Verdana">LOL T/C 00:46, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Obvious incivility, although I don't see what deafness has to do with reading text. --  Darth Mike (talk) 01:14, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Proposed re-block
I am proposing a re-block for violating an agreement to a strict adherence to WP:CIVIL. Comments like "Did I ever say that I own any pages?!! Let me tell you something; I edit pages, not own them, moron! Try listening to what I am saying and maybe you won't have to be so deaf!" are a clear breach of that policy, in fact a breach of WP:NPA. The duration I propose is indefinite until he/she has learned their lesson. — Mythdon ( talk  •  contribs ) 02:50, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * A quick review of the talkpage does not indicate whether any violation of the agreed civility parole will result in a return to the indef block, so I would suggest that an initial sanction of 1 week will suffice in emphasising that the community is not prepared to tolerate further violations. It could also be made clear that any further backsliding will result in considerably longer blocks. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:39, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:UAA backlog
There's a backlog forming at WP:UAA could some kind admin do the honours? Ta muchly. --<font color="#000000">Web <font color="#ff0000">H <font color="#000000">amster  13:07, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Norcalal and Highspeed again
I've received messages on my talk page (section Request for wikimentoring) from an IP claiming to be User:Highspeed, who was blocked by Carlossuarez46 in connexion with the issues mentioned at the thread that appears above. At the same time, Norcalal has left comments, and Carlos has left me some messages in response to my requests for information. In short: the IP is asking for Highspeed's user talk page to be unprotected, so that Highspeed can post an unblock request; Carlos has explained the protection as a drama-reduction attempt, because socks of User:Biaswarrior (which Carlos sees Highspeed to be) apparently misuse their talk pages after they're blocked. I have some doubts about Highspeed's integrity (see his comments at Template talk:Monterey County, California), partially due to this edit, although the IP explains this as a technical glitch. Although Carlos has told me that "I'll leave the decision to you" on this situation, I'm uncomfortable making these decisions myself. In short: I'm leaning toward say "no you don't get unblocked", but I'd rather let the community decide this matter. Nyttend (talk) 01:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Just read through the stuff on your talk page, and I don't see that resetting the block on Highspeed to allow him to request unblock is a bad thing. Worst case scenario we just have to re-enable it.  I'll go do this presently, and if it turns out I've erred anyone can feel free to put it back.  Cheers.  <i style="color:green;">lifebaka</i>++ 04:07, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Like the Keystone cops or something around here. Are admins hellbent on getting me and then keeping me connected to this Highspeed? Why has no one looked at the entire interaction?...From the very beginning? You guys are way off base. I do not know this guy and if you can trump this up to connect me to him then just get it over with. I am sick of this drama. My issue with Carlos is two part and totally unrelated to Highspeed. What harm did my comments do at Highspeeds talk page? They are direct and state what I was experiencing related to the GNIS place name debate? Then the IP related to Highspeed came to my page to leave a statement-totally unsolicited by me. I then asked Nytend to clarify what was going on. Is there a witch hunt brewing? Prove that I have done something worthy of all the drama or let it go. This is unbelievable. 05:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * FROM MY POST at NYTENDS TALK PAGE: Carlos states: "Here" the two seem to be working together? Give me a break. This smells like witch hunt and is truly ridiculous, if it is. I am not going explain why I was interested in speedy deletion tags again and again. And that note from me on Highspeed's discussion page related to the GNIS is a valid point and nothing in that post is divorced from the truth of Carlos' behavior or the concern in the community (beyond my own related to the GNIC stub article proliferation). NOTHING I have done can be connected to culpability no matter how hard any editor/admin may wish to try to connect it. Other editors or admins can decipher this mess all they want. But I am mindful of Goebbels (who worked for Hitler)--tell a lie (or misperception?) enough and the people (other editors and administrators) in this case may come around to believing it. What if this Highspeed guy did make a mistake with an editing tool? Just look at the mess he made in Carlos page. It makes no sense that he would do that blatantly unless he is nuts. POSSIBLY RELATED EXAMPLE: I had a problem with an article up in the northern forest a long while back (probably Yreka or therabouts in Northern California) and it looked to me like the editor was willfully vandalizing over and over. But guess what? He was suffering with a messed up keyboard and trying to work around it as best as he could. It wasn't satisfactory to me, but I could find no other reasonable explanation other than he was crazy. AND he apologized and it NEVER happened again. This is out of hand, if not out of control. Norcalal (talk) 05:46, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No one here is saying anything about that, or you, except to explain the situation. Please calm down.  Cheers.  <i style="color:green;">lifebaka</i>++ 14:33, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I've requested some further explanation from the blocking admin; I'd prefer to see some more solid justification of socking or other misconduct accusations before we allow a single administrator, who seemed to be involved in a dispute with the user, to summarily and indefinitely ban -- talk page lock included -- an account that has been active since 2006. If there's more to be heard, here, so be it, but I'd like to hear it first. – <font color="#28f">Luna Santin (talk) 10:06, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Several misconceptions, Luna: (1) I didn't ban Highspeed, I blocked him; (2) as for whether there is a dispute with him, I had never had contact with him if (as he claims) he is not Biaswarrior until he rampaged on my talk page. As I explained on your talk: if this guy is Biaswarrior, it's a sock, gets a block no warnings are needed and given BW's prior drama on talk pages, enough is enough; given that you consider that there was some prior interaction between us, then you seem to accept that Highspeed is Biaswarrior (although you seem to have missed that Biasprotector was Biaswarrior earlier as reflected on your talk, but anyway - you seem to be as "involved" with Biaswarrior as I am) but having had prior interaction with socks doesn't disable an admin from blocking them - otherwise, socking would be more prolific than it is. Now, on the chance that Highspeed isn't Biaswarrior, the only interaction I had with this guy was the edits he made to my talk page including what seemed to be obvious vandalism which Highspeed denied on Nyttend's talk page even after confronted with the diff. Now, he claims it was a browser malfuction - I'm not technical so although it seems odd and unlikely I cannot disprove it. We've seemed to have reached the Godwin's Law level in Norcalal's latest post above. Note: there hasn't been a single apology for what Highspeed did (he claims unintentionally). If you all think that Highspeed will not do what he's done before, of course you can unblock him, asking for mentorship seems to be a positive step. So would an apology. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 15:47, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * An apology? You mean like this one? Or these two? Even if that one unfortunate edit had been made with the most malicious of intent, the appropriate response would have been a warning. Given your lock on Highspeed's talk page, attempting to prevent the user from appealing your hasty block, I think describing it as an attempted ban is more appropriate. You've repeatedly claimed that Highspeed is a sockpuppet of Biaswarrior, but so far the only supporting evidence I've found from you is a vague mention of WP:DUCK -- please explain why you feel it's appropriate to immediately and indefinitely ban a longtime user with such a flimsy justification. If you're unable or unwilling to provide supporting evidence, it seems to me that you owe Highspeed an apology, and an unblock. – <font color="#28f">Luna Santin (talk) 02:31, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Judging from the available evidence here, on User talk:Highspeed and at User talk:Carlossuarez46, I also tend to believe that this was a very ill-considered block, both on the merits and because it was made by an administrator who appears to have been in a conflict with the blocked user . I suggest that Highspeed be unblocked and I strongly advise Carlossuarez46 not to misuse his administrative powers again in this manner.  Sandstein   12:15, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with unblocking Highspeed, which I believe I'll go do presently, since Luna appears to agree as well. I would rather chalk the block up to a misconception rather than any sort of malice on Charlossuarez46's part, and not worry about it so long as it doesn't happen again.  Cheers, everyone.  <i style="color:green;">lifebaka</i>++ 14:42, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I've unblocked. You need to be real careful about such things, Carlos. --jpgordon:==( o ) 14:44, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

need help move
i need help moving my article Tom chesterfield to Tom Chesterfield —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kindergarten Tom (talk • contribs) 13:47, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ - Kingpin13 (talk) 13:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh, nothing like drawing admin attention to an article that qualifies for CSD :-) ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 14:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Mmmm... regarding your comment on the talk page of the article, the user has actually only been around since a couple of hours ago. But I'm thinking it's strange that the user knew about AN/I and hangon without having to be told. Which leaves me wondering if they are a sockpuppet. - Kingpin13 (talk) 14:15, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I tried to strike the comment - however, the user doesn't get signing, and cannot complete an AFD nomination. I think he's getting close to really bad WP:POINTiness disruption.  ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 14:23, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

NOTE The user AfD'd an article in order to make a WP:POINT, based on this talkpage of Tom Chesterfield. I have NAC'd the AfD as a Speedy keep. If anyone disagrees with this NAC, please let me know. ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 14:29, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree with closure, although you go tangled up with an admin who was attempting to close at the same time. User has now been indeffed. Thread marked as resolved. - Kingpin13 (talk) 14:37, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Please block a racist
Please block User:BlackyAnimal, wikipedia has no place for a racist troll. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 15:19, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Bang. --jpgordon:==( o ) 15:21, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Nukes4Tots back from a week-long block and back to uncivil behavior
after returning from a week long block [] for WP:NPA, i noticed that User:Nukes4Tots has been reverting some run-of-the-mill content disputes with the edit summary "RVV" (revert vandalism). I warned him about misusing the edit summary 'rvv' in cases where it is not actually vandalism, as that could be construed as uncivil, and he deleted my warning as '[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nukes4Tots&diff=prev&oldid=301853806| destalkerized. go away.]' I wasn't sure if he understood the message I was trying to convey to him, since I used a generic template to send the first message, | so I left this personalized message with another example of when not to use 'rvv' (the misused rvv this time was | here.) he then reverted my message with the edit summary | rvv. I don't believe that he has interests in working well with others.

furthermore, he is leaving what could be construed as racist edit summaries. someone tried to add the mexican flag to an article and his edit summary was | rv: el bandito. someone tried to add the filipino flag to an article and he reverts it as | rv: filipino bandit, | rv: cambodian bandit, | filipino bandit strikes again, | rv: filipino bandit, | filipino bandit strikes again, | turkish bandit.

Theserialcomma (talk) 19:43, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Obviously hasn't learnt. I'd say block for a month, with the emphasis that it is his last proper chance. If he's not willing to contribute properly after this then I'm perfectly happy with an indefinite block or community ban. This might seem a bit hardarsed, but people failing to treat week-long and month-long warnings as enough of a hint aren't likely to change. Ironholds (talk) 20:03, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I recommend checking the datestamps on the diffs given above before leaping to any conclusions. Uncle G (talk) 20:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * yep. | rv: el bandito was done today. the rest were provided for context of the pattern of his behavior, and hence are older. Theserialcomma (talk) 20:15, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Let's see. SPI that was inexplicably taken over by ArbCom with no information provided to the community, a staggering number of AN/I threads, significant block log for edit warring and personal attacks and refusal to learn from same... This user is not here to contribute in any meaningful way. Suggest community ban. → ROUX   ₪  20:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Works for me with all that. I note that arbcom haven't touched it. Should we give them a heads up about this thread? Ironholds (talk) 21:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, their comment should be invited due to the socking issue. That needs to be clarified before a ban (if implemented) happens, as multiple accounts may need to be banned. → ROUX   ₪  21:15, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Blocked for one month. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  21:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * See User talk:Nishkid64/Archive 57. Uncle G (talk) 01:48, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Was there ever any response from ArbCom? → ROUX   ₪  03:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I wasn't informed of any result, so I presume the ArbCom never reached a decision. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 17:09, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Theserialcomma baiting block review

 * I would like to point out that User:Theserialcomma has been blocked for one month for baiting Nukes: User talk:Theserialcomma. Some guy (talk) 22:53, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Another admin reviewed independently a few hours ago and passed on doing anything, but Theserialcomma just posted a malformed (probably won't show up on the unblock requests category properly) unblock request on his talk page User talk:Theserialcomma. If another uninvolved admin can go take a look I'd appreciate it.
 * Please note that contrary to TSC's claim in the unblock I am asserting no defense for Nukes4Tots actions here and not arguing for him to be unblocked. Theserialcomma caused a very large number of ANI threads over the last few months, though they were usually the victim in terms of direct abuse.  This evolved into a situation where they pestered someone they knew did not want to talk to them at all, replaced a warning on their talk page after it was removed once.  If this was the first time, AGF would presume this was neither intentional nor malicious.  This is far, far from the first time.  Even if it was still unintentional and innocent, the quantity of incidents rises to disruptive, and I can no longer AGF on the matter.  There have been too many - a user who genuinely understands that getting along with the community is important would have stopped poking the stick in months ago.
 * The current civility poll section on baiting supports a community consensus that baiting is a problem and has been under-recognized in abuse cases.
 * I do invite review, but I am hopeful that we can start to set the precedent that if you appear on ANI too often even as the victim, there's probably something you're doing very wrong, and that you should expect to be held responsible for that. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:48, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I have procedurally declined the unblock request pending resolution of this review. I am on record saying that "baiting" is not a useful description of blockable misconduct. Still, Georgewilliamherbert, could you please provide the diffs of the edits that you believe constitute the misconduct that triggered your block, and could you explain why you chose a block length of one month for an editor who had not previously been blocked?  Sandstein   07:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * A month does seem a tad excessive given the previously-unpopulated block log and lack of warnings. → ROUX   ₪  07:55, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I will follow up with diffs, but the proximate cause was the pair of warnings about misuse of "rvv" as a revert summary for nonvandalism. As I indicated to Theserialcomma on his talk page, he has been engaged in enough conflict with Nukes4Tots that he should not have been leaving warnings there - Nukes had repeatedly told him to leave him alone and not post on his talk page.  TSC had a point about "rvv" - but should have sought an uninvolved user or admin to talk to Nukes about it.  TSC knew or reasonably should have been expected to have known that any criticism he leveled on Nukes would be taken badly by now and would likely result in rude behavior.  Even if we assume that the first warning was in innocent ignorance of that, putting it back after Nukes deleted it is either malign baiting or operating in sufficient ignorance of the effects of ones actions upon others that it rises to the level of negligence and disruption.  The next response was to come to ANI.
 * One can assume good faith about malign intent in this - I don't anymore, but I can see how others might - but any reasonable person who had been in such conflict with another editor would know that acting in that manner would be provocative. The 1-2-ANI sequence was telling.
 * I do not factually know what TSC intended by this - but what he did was clearly poking a stick repeatedly at an editor he had been in conflict with multiple times over multiple months. If he was malignly baiting, then he should go.  If he really didn't realize that this was provocative, that he was poking a stick in, then there is a serious lack of judgement regarding interpersonal communications, serious enough that it rises to the level of disruption.
 * The number of times he's come to ANI indicates the scope of the issue. I'll need to dig up the diffs.  Those provided the background - this would not be a necessary or appropriate response to a first incident which could be characterized as baiting.
 * Regarding block length - I submit that if one is baiting, one should be held as responsible as the effects were upon the baitee. Nukes was blocked for a month.
 * If there's widescale disagreement with proportional responsibility (half or more of admins responding here disagree) then I agree in advance with any admin reducing that to two weeks or one week. I would like to see some healthy discussion on it first, though.
 * I don't intend to argue that Nukes4Tots has any lack of responsibility here - a number of admins have stated that they feel that WPMILHIST / WPGUNS editors have been acting insular and hostile, with Nukes being one of the two main culprits blamed. There is no support in the poll on civility for allowing baited people to get away with having responded aggressively in an uncivil manner.  But there is clear support that baiting is not ok, and that it's been under-responded-to.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think we got TSC's attention but a month is way too long, even a week is excessive for a first block. More punitive then preventative. I'd suggest commuting this to time served or 24 hours. If there is a repetition then something longer can be imposed. Spartaz Humbug! 21:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't consider Theserialcomma to be as innocent as he claims to be. His decision to continuously converse with Nukes4Tots, despite the fact that Nukes4Tots no longer wishes to communicate with this user (to elaborate, Theserialcomma was the one who initiated the SPI reports on Nukes4Tots and created the AN/I notices on Nukes' behavior), gives off an impression of baiting. Although this is a serious issue, this is only the first block for this user, so a month might seem punitive. I support the block being reduced to a few days or a week at most. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 21:56, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd like to point out that TSC has a reputation of getting into disagreements with others, then making himself to appear like the innocent one in the situation, when he's not always completely innocent (such as the case here). Just from my observations of him. He previously initiated an SPI on another long term, good faith editor, User:Tothwolf. When that was closed (Tothwolf was not socking), TSC took Tothwolf to COI/N over a separate issue. This has happened to many people that TSC has run into on Wikipedia. Its a wonder people stick around with such harassment. Killiondude (talk) 00:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Having been in dispute with TSC because of his behavior towards Tothwolf (which is practically hounding), I agree with Killiondude. As it is some admins stand ready to block TSC if he starts hounding Tothwolf again, but any attempt to talk to TSC about the discussion is railroaded by accusations of IRC cabalism from him. I would suggest that any unblock be given a conditional that he honor Nukes4Tots' request to not contact him. I do agree, however, that a month's block for the first block is to excessive, but am against under a week because of his harassment. -<font color="32CD32">Jeremy <font color="4682B4">(v^_^v Tear him for his bad verses!) 01:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * We are wrangling over the length of the block not the concept that a block is required. A month does seem rather long for this. Spartaz Humbug! 00:05, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) We now have four five admins / experienced users indicating that they think the block is too long. Would a reduction to a week be agreeable to the consensus? Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:16, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Time served, in my opinion. It's the first one. Any further baiting or trangressions can result in a much longer block; we've gotten our point across. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  00:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, it looks like about half the comments are days-to-week-ish and half for time-served-ish at this point. I would like further input on those and will follow consensus in a review later tonight.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Time served is appropriate but a month for a first block, that is excessive. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 01:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC).

Based on the above discussion, there's clear consensus to reduce to no more than a week, and credible argument for time served. I am going to reduce it myself at this point to 5 days at this time, and I am open to further reduction or simply an unblock if consensus solidifies further around time served. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:49, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Really, George, as the blocking admin, you should do what you feel is right. Don't worry about making the greatest number of editors happy; do what's right for the project. Are you preventing further disruption? What is your feeling on this baiting reoccurring after the block is lifted or expired? Whether it's a day or a month is really dependent on your judgment here. Consider our opinions, make a decision, state it, and stand by it. I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but I can't help feeling that you are selling out your own judgment. <font color="#CC7722" face="Papyrus">Tan  &#124;  <font color="#21421E" face="Papyrus">39  05:36, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * My judgement is and always has been that my judgement can at times be mistaken. One of the benefits of a functional diverse community is that if you listen, errors and misjudgements can be corrected, making everyone's interactions better.  Academic communities, engineering work peer review and cross checks and signoffs, aviation and spaceflight crew resources management all suggest that being willing to accept constructive criticism and improve ones own work is far less likely to develop critical errors.  I try to balance between decisiveness (necessary to perform any sort of enforcement effectively) and openness to feedback (necessary to avoid further propogation of decisive failures).
 * What I have seen is that there's agreement with the substance of the block but disagreement about the length. We have essentially no precedent here, we haven't done much baiting situation enforcement to date - I had an idea for how to approach it and did so, and people are concerned that it's overly harsh.  That's good feedback.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:39, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * On the gripping hand - TSC has just on his talk page claimed that if he's not unblocked earlier, he will wait for the block to expire, create a new account to avoid the stigma of this one, and "continue acting exactly as I have been"..
 * I do not think he believes that anyone else supports my conclusion that he was baiting. This is despite several other users and admins having shown up there and politely said so, and the thread above.
 * Could other uninvolved admins perhaps let him know on User talk:Theserialcomma that what he's proposing is not acceptable behavior? Continuing to behave as he did is the problem...  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I did. He reverted it. -<font color="32CD32">Jeremy <font color="4682B4">(v^_^v Tear him for his bad verses!) 19:06, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Problematic edit and subsequent comments by User:Kasaalan
A content dispute has been going on recently about some pro-Israel organizations in the United States. One of the editors in the dispute contacted me asking for my involvement, and while I replied to the question, will of course not get involved or take a side in the content dispute. However, because most will probably consider me an involved administrator anyway, I'm taking this here. Basically one of the editors in the dispute, User:Kasaalan, has made this edit, which separates Jewish criticism of the organization from non-Jewish criticism of it. Here is a permanent link.

I have contacted Kasaalan over this obviously problematic edit (again, I don't care about the underlying content issue and strongly urge admins in this ANI to ignore it, and leave it for content RfC or something), and what's really concerning is that he defended making a separate section for Jewish criticism, in a way that clearly misses the point and confusing pro-Israel groups with Jews in general. I will not go into a long soapbox to remind anyone reading this what parts of Jewish history this separation reminds of. Administrators: Please take a look and decide for yourselves. —Ynhockey (Talk) 10:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't like to confuse all Jew with pro-Israel lobby or anything, however I can't use a title as pro-Israel for Jewish Virtual Library unless there is RS saying so. I tried to use a more broad title, since "Criticism by Jewish and pro-Israel parties" got deleted, I didn't understand you before however do you now claim "Criticism by Jewish parties" is being offensive. If so you may just offer a general and less offending title, however a categorisation is needed since all parties has conflict of interest to the case, and accusing the involved party as Nazi, anti-semitic or such.


 * Do you specifically offended by "Criticism by Jewish and pro-Israel parties", "Criticism by Jewish parties" or by both.
 * The original title I added was "Criticism by Jewish and pro-Israel parties" now it is "Criticism by Jewish parties" to include as more general and less POV, however the title may change per discussion and if any more neutral title is offered I certainly use it, however except 1 source [National Post (note: National_Post which is criticised for being anti-muslim etc. yet by a Conflict of Interest party Canadian Islamic Congress so not sure if criticism is accurate)] all criticism in the article is by Jewish or pro-Israel lobby or media watchdog organizations, Some organisations are clearly WP:POV such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_Accuracy_in_Middle_East_Reporting_in_America#CAMERA_Israeli_lobby_campaign_in_Wikipedia, some self-statedly "defenders of Israel". So there is possible WP:NPOV and WP:COI conflict exist on criticism section. Kasaalan (talk) 11:00, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Personally I support using Criticism by Jewish and pro-Israel parties if no better title is offered
 * Criticism by pro-Israel parties might not be accurate
 * Criticism by Jewish parties general (not sure it is any way offended, however if it is offended to you instead removal can you offer a better and more NPOV title)

The issue is the criticism section in the article is only limited to WP:COI parties so a note or title is needed somehow. Kasaalan (talk) 11:00, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Do you get offended by "criticism by jewish parties" title, if so offer a general, better and more NPOV title, however since all the parties and Jewish and their criticism is being anti-Israel or antisemitic, they have a conflict of interest to the case per ethnically and religiously one way or another. We are offering a vast criticism section which consumes more than half of the article, and the organisations origin should be noted one way or another. I tried to generelize the title, if anyone offers a better one we can use it. You should use discussion page, ask a RFC or 3rd party view before ANI anyway. Kasaalan (talk) 11:14, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Created a discussion page title http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Washington_Report_on_Middle_East_Affairs#ANI_over_Criticism_by_Jewish_.5Band_pro-Israel.5D_parties_subtitle over subtitle suggestion and discussions. Kasaalan (talk) 11:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure whether it's the well-poisoning or the yellow-badging that's more disturbing here, but this needs to be nipped in the bud ASAP. IronDuke  16:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This editing is highly problematic. You need to stop labeling Jews. It reminds me of this and other problematic articles you've been involved in.  Enigma <sup style="color:#FFA500;">msg  16:53, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * List of Jewish pacifists and peace activists is a good list article that needs expansion, I am proud of my additions, not sure why would anyone opposes List of Jewish pacifists and peace activists article or tries to delete it in the first place anyway My edits definitely improved the article while you try to delete entries
 * Since we had personal conflict over your and my edits, I read your adminship review while stood highly against your adminship for any Middle-Eastern or Israel related IP article we should first note that.
 * According to your Adminship Review, Pauly Shore is one of your "best contribution" per your self statement
 * So your reply reminds me of your proudly Huge content removal from Pauly Shore which I checked earlier
 * You proudly removed his critical Raspberry Awards from Pauly Shore claiming defamation as "removing a ton of garbage and defamation"
 * You Removed "He was raised in a Jewish family and has two brothers, Scott and Peter." claiming "bad source, does not even reflect what is stated here" while he has a jewish family for sure You may read article
 * You removed criticism http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pauly_Shore&diff=next&oldid=270336536
 * You removing Jew categories http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pauly_Shore&diff=next&oldid=270389413
 * Since you are proud of your best contribution as anti defamatory, we can't agree in any way.
 * Stating anyone's origin is not defamatory, nothing to be proud of or ashamed in any way. Telling someone is Jew or Arab or Black is not labeling them. Kasaalan (talk) 20:25, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what you're talking about. Please endeavour to use English. I saw a link to Pauly Shore. What I did there was remove a lot of uncited and often negative material. If you don't like that, perhaps bring it up on the relevant talk page. Not sure what Pauly Shore has to do with the underlying problem here. Please stop labeling.  Enigma <sup style="color:#FFA500;">msg  21:52, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You removed ""He was raised in a Jewish family" which is sourced, you deleted Jewish-American and other Jew related categories from his (a jewish comedian) article, removed critical awards-criticism  and claimed it is anti-defamatory. Links are above. You try to bring up my additions jewish peace activist article, not sure why. And I bring up Pauly Shore article, since it proves you claim mentioning someone's origin as labeling and anti-defamatory which is an utter nonsense and clearly false. You accused me as "labeling Jews", while you try to remove huge content per your own standards. Kasaalan (talk) 23:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Revision as of 07:34, 20 April 2009 by Wikifan12345 readded "Shore was raised Jewish " asking "generally understood. category/inclusion was removed 1 year ago. don't know why." You try to remove "Jewish origin" from articles, according the your own personal standards while labeling others as defamatory. If we will stick to the subject try not to bring other issues here and stay in whithin discussion. Kasaalan (talk) 23:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Once again, please use English. I still don't know how Pauly Shore has anything to do with this AN/I thread.  Enigma <sup style="color:#FFA500;">msg  00:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I renamed the title to "Criticism by Jewish community" as a general title with tag until a consensus reached.
 * I don't even know what you mean by that terms. If you have any suggestion for the title, join discussion page so we can find a solution. Kasaalan (talk) 16:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Kasaalan continues to begin everything that is remotely Jewish/Israel with Pro-Israel, Pro-Jewish, Pro-Jewistan, Pro-Jewniverse, pro-Jew World Order...etc..etc..etc. Then he even created a criticism section that said, "Criticisms by Pro- Jewish and pro-Israel organizations." I provided more thorough responses in talk which obviously didn't phase the user. I don't really care about punishment I just want some moderation or an uninvolved party to tell me what to do before this becomes a hate crime. Hahaha. Wikifan12345 (talk) 19:26, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Possibly you didn't know what canvas is as an inexperienced editor, so possibly there is not much reason for you to be worried about getting punished. You called me some names, yet I don't care about that either personally. Main purpose is finding a solution for the case. Yet more editor comments are required for finding a proper solution.
 * I tagged the "Criticism by Jewish community" as a general title with tag until a consensus reached.
 * The case is all the critical parties in the article belongs to Jewish community and has conflict of interest to the case, some of the are completely unreliable source, morever they harshly accuses the party as anti-Semitic anti-Israel acting like Nazi etc. So one way or another I am in favor of keeping criticism, yet with proper notes about political stances of the sources. As I do in other articles.
 * What is remotely Jewish Israel I referred as pro Israel. Anti Defamation League is pro Israel per foundation statements. Honest Reporting and Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America are pro-Israel media watchdogs. If you have any objections try requesting a RFC, 3rd review or Arbitrary Process, I created titles under project Israel, Palestine and Israel-Palestine contribution pages. If more people comments we may find a solution. Without more editors involved hard to find a proper solution. Kasaalan (talk) 20:36, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll be removing those "criticisms by Jews" subheaders. They're just not appropriate. --jpgordon:==( o ) 20:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I haven't looked into the issues raised here, but it may be germane to note that Kasaalan has been enaged in tendentious editing at Talk:David_Duke.   Will Beback    talk    21:55, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Why you come here and accusing me for tendentious editing over applying BLP accurately and not presenting claims as facts. My edit for David Duke is completely accurate.
 * You only applied WP:WTA per claim word and replaced with say, over my edits which I supported. "Say is also fine. Wikipedia:WTA#Claim. Kasaalan (talk) 09:26, 15 July 2009 (UTC)"
 * I have no involvement with David Duke or any racist parties in any way, let alone supporting him, his ideas or share any common one. If I have any bias over racism, it is that I am anti-racist by any means.
 * I only involved due to a previous research about Gaza War link research, I first considered his comments might be "important to mention" as he is a previous USA Louisiana State Representative, yet after I self noted he is racist and read wiki article therefore I realized his ideas are strictly should be avoided, after that I edited his article time to time
 * Just today I just formed criticism section myself. revision as of 21:46, 16 July 2009
 * and I created plastic surgery criticism per critical external link I found and added Revision as of 21:23, 14 July 2009 to the article.
 * Talk:David_Duke I suggested implementing (claimed by ...) and I personally added serious accusations about David Duke in discussion page weeks before, while other editors (including you) preferring to ignore it and chose to focus on discussing magazinal claims like finder keepers' and its sexual advices'.
 * I personally added and strictly pointed in bold actual accusations about him "This compelling work tells the story of Anne Skorecki Levy, a Holocaust survivor who transformed the horrors of her childhood into a passionate mission to defeat the political menace of reputed neo-Nazi and Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke" part per Troubled Memory: Anne Levy, the Holocaust and David Duke's Louisiana for a real criticism over David Duke  instead discussing broadly over plagiarized anal sex advises of David Duke you could add such info yourself which you clearly didn't waste any time on.
 * I said "Keep the allegations, neutralize the tone, try not engaging in an edit war" weeks before to both porties, while both parties (fans and haters) did nothing to improve criticism per sexual advice book (none added details or neutralized the tone until I do even suggested to the both parties) let alone real criticism per his KKK days I provided
 * If you will act as a prejudiced party over your frustration over my clear improvement to article and its criticism section, try not to act at all. Kasaalan (talk) 22:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You are manically obsessed with Jews. You habitually labeled everything that was remotely Jewish as "PRO-JEWISH" (what the hell does that mean?) and "PRO-ISRAEL." For the Jewish professor, you put a long title like such as X, who is a professor on holocaust studies and Jewish stuff, criticizes etc..etc...This ANI isn't about an admin or Pauly Shore, it's about your obsessive and hateful editing. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:47, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You began personally attacking over my psychological condition, which is not within your area of expertise (not sure if you have any)
 * Who did I refer as pro-jewish (I may be wrong but I am not sure if ever I used the term), I used the term pro-Israel referring to pro-Israel lobby in US.
 * According to Dr. Rafael Medoff, founding director of The David Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies and member of American Jewish Historical Society is an accurate addition, which sticks to the facts. Political stances of the critical and conflicting parties should be added for a heavy criticism section which contists by self involved and COI parties.
 * Also note the criticism section consumes a large space, while containing strictly unreliable sources such as CAMERA.
 * If previously conflicted admin accuses me, I should note to his own standards on the issue.
 * What you call repeatedly manically obsessive "obsessively" is actually, area of expertise and interest. I generallly do edits over Middle Eastern issues in Palestine-Israel and other related parties, simply because it is within my interest and knowledge. I recently began editing over some sources which links each other and needs serious improvements. Without third party involvement, even highly dubious POV sources as Middle East Quarterly journal is mispresented as peer reviewed in Wikipedia. Criticism and doubt is essential.
 * Hater nice insult Hours of hard work for implementing sortable table for 50 entries into Israeli folk singer Chava Alberstein article along with details. (note I only listened 1 song by her)
 * For Jewish Virtual Library article My recent edits as 16 July 2009 before I edited after I edited I improve the articles unlike other talkers, complainers and POV parties. I never subtract any info, unlike others, I only add information for balance if I feel any need.
 * Articles_for_deletion/Anti-Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States My vote is in favor of keeping info if the sources are reliable as an inclusionist. Since I am not a POV party, my vote doesn't change according to biased thoughts or context of the article.
 * Because of your own POV conflicts of interest in the articles, try not to accuse me to cover your own actions. Kasaalan (talk) 00:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you just say you don't say pro-Jewish? You throw around all kinds of words to insult users all the time. In the past, you've called me a troll, a pro-Jewish pro-Israel POV pusher, a heavily biased, etc. This despite the fact that I rarely edit things related to Judaism or Israel, as can be confirmed by reviewing my contributions. I was never before accused of any such thing. Then you came along. You also dumped reams of meaningless text on my RfA for no apparent reason.  Enigma <sup style="color:#FFA500;">msg  00:38, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Which wiki article I used pro-jewish term I asked. I commented over your edits as such with evidence and upon your actions. You rarely edit judaism topics, however when you do you try to substract information like removing "Jew" from a Jew person as "anti-defamatory" action. I had discussed your edits vastly in Adminship review with evidence. If you like we may create another topic about your edits. Don't make me repeat myself here. Kasaalan (talk) 02:25, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

User Kasaalan is a clear-cut pov warrior with few productive edits. Even now he is managing to take up energy that would be better used elsewhere.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 00:25, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't know who you are, don't know your edits, we haven't talked before.
 * Nice accusations. Try finding any substractory edit of mine, which deletes any (accurate) info from any article.
 * All of my edits are in favor of additional info and details, therefore progressive. All the articles I edited are improved by various aspects.
 * I have edited over 575 articles, and have over 4200 edits while all of my edits are progressively additional. Who do you try to kid with "a few". Kasaalan (talk) 00:43, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree.  Enigma <sup style="color:#FFA500;">msg  00:38, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Kasaalan - you are editing in a disruptive manner. You need to stop that and stop throwing threats and acusations at other users. This is not an appropriate or acceptable way to participate here at Wikipedia. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:42, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I am personally attacked as even "manically obsessive" blatantly, accused for my clear progressive edits by certain editors, then I am being disruptive. Kasaalan (talk) 00:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal

 * Topic ban proposal On reading this thread and the attempts by various editors including GWH here and elsewhere to have Kasaalan refrain from his disruptive style of editing I am left with the overwhelming impression that Kasaalan is unwilling or unable to stop at this time. I propose that a topic ban for 3 months be placed on Kasaalan which would require that he not edit with regards any article, talk page, topic or thread that is related to Jews and Judaism. This will allow him time to adjust his style and perhaps gain a wider set of interests - whilst at the same time reducing the disruption he is currently causing.  Would other administrators please comment, support or object below.  If I see a clear consensus over the next 24 hours I will be happy to instigate or alternatively another administrator might want to take such action in my stead.-- VS  talk 01:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not an admin but just a quick comment As the principal party involved, I would like to say a few things. First, I really don't want to be a part of any topic-ban or a wikipedia trial. I've found them to be extremely depressing and often times users will seek retribution when their time runs out. Second, I can honestly say Kasaalan has potential to be a productive editor as far as Israel/Palestine is concerned, but obviously there are so major issues that is holding him back. I believe that topic bans rarely help editors overcome their behaviors but instead teach them to be more subtle with POV-pushing/attacks/whatever. I see Kasaalan has no block history so I'm not sure if a topic-ban without priors is kosher. Don't consider my POV too much, I have a much more "recognized" history than Kasaalan. :D Wikifan12345 (talk) 01:37, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comment - the alternate then (in terms of prevention which is the primary reason for any action of this type) is to provide a short block to cease his disruptive editing.-- VS talk 01:46, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * PS As far as I am aware a topic ban is possible for a previously unblocked editor and in fact allows that editor to retain a block free record.-- VS talk 02:02, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd support a topic ban, if only to see what Kasalaan would do if unable to edit I-P articles for a period of time. I saw him from his start at Rachel Corrie, which grew so tendentious that I disengaged from the article entirely.  I'd suggest one month, though.  Really, a look through these diffs shows that Kasalaan hasn't learned anything from experience, except he knows policies a bit better than he did, for use only when arguing on talk pages.  Pity he doesn't apply them to his editing.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wehwalt you are and editor who even objects addition of Human Rights Watch report when it is against Israel and IDF's case. You wasted weeks of editing time arguing HRW is not RS so shouldn't be added into the article. If I am being accused like this, how can I not reply. Rachel Corrie is my leading contributed article Before I first edited in 2008 After my last edit in 2009 improvement is obvious. Kasaalan (talk) 02:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I will note that, all the criticism above came per Israel-Jewish related editors. I had serious previous conflict with Enigmaman and his adminship voter VS. I strongly object any judgmental process by 2 admins, who didn't even mention we had previous conflict. Any uninvolved admin like George may do fine job. However accuser parties own actions also should be checked if the case gets that serious, which I can easily provide. For any issue about any article edit of mine, post here and we can discuss. Kasaalan (talk) 02:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Key words there, I think are "Israel-Jewish related editors."--Wehwalt (talk) 02:14, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Guilty. : ) Wikifan12345 (talk) 02:24, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well it is hard to describe without using a term. Some of the users are citizen of Israel, some are racially Jewish some others religiously. However the term depends the context. Depending the context pro-Jewish may mean pro-Jewish (conservatist) or pro-Israel (right wing). I try to find an objective term as Israel-Jewish related editors, which refers conflict of interest to the case. For example I strictly stay away the topics which I feel I may have conflict of interest per (racially or per country based) and strictly not making edits in such topics. (I also don't do such edits without academical or reliable knowledge about that conflicts anyway) Yet some editors (tough they have clearly conflict of interest per racially or religiously) do not stay away from such titles, they do not state their origin or possible bias, yet accuse others as anti-... When being accused as anti then I have to define a pro-.... which is what happens in reality. I asked a question about possible conflict of origins about the issue. If every accusing editor can state their stance, it will be easier to understand what I mean.
 * Also it is same for Sarah Palin or Scientology, religious or political conflict of interest is not much helpful if not previously stated for titles as such. Kasaalan (talk) 10:30, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * [OD] Kasaalan - I have no editing conflict with you and have never edited any of the pages that are referred in this thread. That said I am seeking comments for a topic ban or a block relating to you from other editors and particularly other administrators.  It will not help if you now begin to disrupt this part of the discussion.  I ask that you await the outcome of such comments and only if a clear consensus to block or topic ban arises will I act - or as the case may be ask another administrator to act that way.-- VS  talk 02:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have personal conflict with enigmaman, while you are active nominator and supporter of emigmaman for adminship. Also you showed plently of effort about my objections against his adminship at ANI, adminship nomination, nomination talk and my personal talk pages we disputed a lot. VS you aren't uninvolved by any means. You request topic ban per opinion pieces of involved parties. Kasaalan (talk) 02:34, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If you wish to admit that you have a personal conflict with Enigmaman that is up to you Kasaalan. I repeat again I have no personal conflict with you and I have never edited any article that you have been involved in. More importantly this thread is related to something else and not your personal conflict with Enigmaman. Again you are being disruptive with your edits.-- VS talk 02:39, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't have any such conflict.  Enigma <sup style="color:#FFA500;">msg  02:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I will note VS is 2 times nominator of enigmaman to adminship, while all the time "Really Strong Support" voter every time at every adminship nomination.
 * Claiming only I have conflict with enigmaman is inaccurate per any means.
 * I will just note, you still didn't yet reply any of my ANI questions or claims yet. Kasaalan (talk) 03:11, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What questions or claims? Everything I could decipher, I replied to. And no, I don't have a conflict. It's your conflict through and through.  Enigma <sup style="color:#FFA500;">msg  04:24, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You still didn't explain your trim and deletion efforts in Yeshiva Torah Temimah pedophilia scandal in wikipedia. Or you didn't answer if you ever tracked my edits or not. [It is clear by evidence anyway] Can you publicly state do you have any racial, religious, citizenship based or any other way conflict of interest with Palestine-Israel issue or Judaism. Kasaalan (talk) 10:20, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

i, too, know kasaalan from rachel corrie. i actually agree with wikifan (gasp!) that he shouldn't be topic banned, and for some of the same reasons. i think if he were given a mentor to work with, explaining the problems caused by his hyper-bolding and trouble with the subtleties of the english language, he could be an excellent contributor. untwirl (talk) 02:30, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Certainly, editors, and not just those in conflict with Kasalaan, have taken time to explain the difficulties his edits cause. I'm not sure a mentor would have better luck.  First disagreement, and Kasalaan will perceive him as having a conflict with him.  He'd have to have the patience of Job.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:39, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Replies

 * The issue is I add text per research and long readings. Some other editors object articles per personal opinions and even without bothering to the references fully. In no other article there are week long discussions over addition of a critical Human Rights Watch report except Rachel Corrie or I-P related articles. There is certain bias exist against addition of criticism and per removal of certain criticism and it is not caused by me. You referred Rachel Corrie please show any disruptive or inaccurate parts in the article. Show any case people tried to add criticism to balance and I objected (I only object content removal most of the time) I personally found and add various reliable sources missing to improve the article which is near a featured article quality. Kasaalan (talk) 03:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Clarification of the terms
 * Time to time I use pro-Israel and pro-Jewish term which refers to pro-Israel(right wing conservatives) and pro-Jewish(religiously or racially conservatives)
 * The editors I used the term practices editing in favor of their religious or political stance to the Palestine-Israel conflict and Judaism practice (as a conservative) which includes objecting addition of clear Reliable Sources with no good reason or trying to substract info that they don't like from wikipedia.
 * I can easily proof what the Israel and IDF supporting editors has unease about
 * Addition of details over Westernern casualties and killings in the Israel-Palestine areas (which heavily committed by Israel army)
 * And Recently
 * Addition of criticism to the POV sources like Middle East Quarterly which advertised as peer reviewed before I made some effort to add criticism
 * And addition of detail for conflict of interested (some heavily unreliable) critical parties for WRMEA


 * In the same manner I might be called pro-Jewish by means of pro-Israel (per peace camp) pro-Jewish (left or culturally mostly music which is an interest area of mine) or pro-Palestine (cultural as in manners of human rights) or even anti-Israel(per army human rights violations against Jews and Palestine population)
 * So the hate some editors refer do not refer to the Jews itself, however telling some POV source is POV is not POV in the first place


 * Before making any more false accusations
 * I have no racial, religious personal COI to the Palestine-Israel conflict personally
 * (if you count as possible bias I have Jewish relatives (not blood related), friends of my family like I do Arab friends of my family - though except music I do not have much knowledge about Judaism religious practice or culture, I have a bit much about Muslim religious practice, culture and history yet that is again not vast)
 * I am not a supporter of Hamas, Islamic Jihad or current Palestine government, like I am no supporter of current Israel government or Israel army (actually I am not supporter of government in my home country anyway like most other countries in the world)
 * However if you ask my opinion about the Palestine-Israel issue I can clearly criticize
 * Both Israel army and most of Palestine armed wing groups commits serious Human Rights violations in the area against civillians
 * While Israel army kills and wounds multiple times more people since it has more army resources, finance support and followers (numbers doesn't lie)


 * Can all the accuser parties first clearly state, if they have any religiously, racially or any other Conflict of Interests for Judaism, Israel or Israel Defense Forces publicly.


 * Also can anyone put examples of my recent edits, which substracts any (accurate) information (I rarely remove any info even it isn't properly sourced I most tag it) to make a POV standpoint.


 * Morever people can easily check 3 related projects where I called for a review by 3 related parties
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Anti-Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States my vote and stance for anti-Israel lobby
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Israel#ADL_is_pro-Israel_lobby_or_not Project Israel
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Palestine#ADL_is_pro-Israel_lobby_or_not Project Palestine
 * And during the discussion progress in discussion page, the user asked another help from the other user who filed the ANI


 * Wikifan for example your edits clearly show you only interested and editing in Palestine-Israel-Arab-Muslim related topics yourself. I do not call that as "manical obsessiveness" like you accuse me I call it area of interest (or conflict if you have any relation to the Israel-Palestine conflict).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Washington_Report_on_Middle_East_Affairs#How_ADL_is_not_pro_Israel I took major time proofing to you ADL is pro-Israel lobby per strict proof which you chose to ignore by side claims. I even showed more effort on finding consensus over the case
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Anti-Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States my vote and stance for anti-Israel lobby
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Israel#ADL_is_pro-Israel_lobby_or_not Project Israel
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Palestine#ADL_is_pro-Israel_lobby_or_not Project Palestine
 * Also since I am no POV party and an inclusionist, I did not delete the criticism, which I can clearly and easily do per WP:RS and WP:POV per harsh criticism and accusations by unreliable parties like
 * Committee_for_Accuracy_in_Middle_East_Reporting_in_America
 * Pro-Israel media watchdog Honest Reporting
 * I can't edit concerning what Hamas say, what IDF fans or what any other POV party say about me
 * I vote and edit per inclusionism and addition of details and criticism to the articles, it is about policy
 * Articles_for_deletion/Anti-Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States "don't delete the content if the entries are accurate and merge, don't waste editing time" "Claims by POV parties in the article stated as facts" "It should be applied as argued by ... for claims." "Instead vastly discussing and wasting time, if all parties work together we may improve the article to correct the NPOV issues and claims. My solution is per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Quarterly#Criticism and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Report_on_Middle_East_Affairs#Criticism keeping the criticism however adressing the critical parties political stance"
 * I can't change my policies against accusations and complaints per POV and COI parties.
 * Related article which ANI is issued
 * Your edits


 * * * *
 * 
 * My edits


 * * *
 * 
 * * * *
 * Issues with POV sources also raised in discussion page by other parties. You skipped the discussion page and asked YnHockey's talk page help which is resulted in a swift and improper ANI. Kasaalan (talk) 11:02, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment
This discussion should be brought to a close. The immediate ANI issue has been resolved by removing the sub header in the criticism section of WRMEA. It is surely a waste of everyone's time to drag up previous disputes. If a WP:RFC/U is warranted for Kasaalan, then do that, and allow appropriate remedies/sanctions to come out of that. A topic ban proposal suddenly popping up here, on such a political topic (with such polarised views), is quite worrying, especially when this ANI section starts with a dispute about a single subheader that had a perfectly legitimate intent (identifying the political views of some organisations critical of WRMEA). A topic ban is a sledgehammer, and it should not be wielded lightly. Rd232 talk 09:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes I think you make a valid point rd232 - however the dispute escalates it seems as a result of Kasaalan performing what many here and others at his talk page describe as disruptive edits. Clearly a topic ban is within the realms of possible discussion at AN/I even in the middle of another dispute, and if that is what is required to stop this type of behaviour then there is nothing wrong with suggesting it - but that said I am not adverse to accepting your submission that this thread is not quite enough to pursue that outcome at this time.  I am more than happy to have the discussion closed (assuming others agree) however Kasaalan should understand that he is on notice by many editors in terms of the type of disruptive editing that he performs and is constantly being alerted to.  If that means that a new discussion is better aimed for the future (if necessary) either here or at RFC/U then that is an outcome that is quite within my realms of acceptance.-- VS  talk 09:46, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I would hope that he at least renounces recognized behavioral issues or else he'll just continue on. He just continues to rationalize his edits. Wikifan12345 (talk) 10:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes another fair point Wikifan2345 - I would be interested in seeing Kasaalan's response to your request that he recognises that his editing style is disruptive - without further rationalisation as to it being everyone else's fault. I think you will agree with me that a straight yes or no (that is without another verbose essay style comment) will be best and certainly adequate for us to consider placing some additional assumption of good faith at his doorstep.  Kasaalan?-- VS  talk 10:36, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * He called me "manically obsessive" many times for my edits, called another fellow editor's help previous to ANI. It is nice that he acts calm.
 * My reply is providing both parties edit's instead opinion pieces.
 * The links clearly show My edits are definitely improving, progressive and per RS.
 * It is clear, after I edited the article it is improved.
 * I took various steps for proving proof in discussion page, calling other related editor's review within Project Israel, Project Palestine, and Project Israel-Palestine Collaboration per I replied above.
 * Also I am still waiting an answer about accusing parties' possible religious, racial or citizenship based conflict of interests about the Palestine-Israel issues, which none bothered to answer yet. Kasaalan (talk)
 * I asked User:Ynhockey if the Anti-Defamation League should be written with "Pro-Jew" before every inclusion. He posted the ANI out of his own free will, I just wanted a question to be answered because you did not agree. Oh wait, Ynhockey is pro-Israel. Zomg!!111 Zionist propaganda!! XD Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:36, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No, too monotonous. I'm sure Kasalaan would be OK with you varying it with an occasional "anti-Muslim".--Wehwalt (talk) 02:22, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I agree with Rd232. Those who have a problem with Kasalaan's editing should open an WP:RfC/U. Light banter implying he's an anti-Semite on ANI is inappropriate and the insults from his detractors impugning his psychology are personal attacks. Grow up everybody.  T i a m u t talk 17:17, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Kasalaan has not stopped and now has the dubious support of other editors. All criticisms come from zealously pro-Jew/Israel sources. Just as I predicted. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:27, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Soapboxing and incivility by User:Sanitycult
Following an uncivil post by, I looked at the user page and found a pretty offensive bit of soapboxing. A request to remove it resulted in this unproductive exchange. I don't think there is anything more I can do here. I will notify the editor about this report. Looie496 (talk) 01:53, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't care about any decicion made here, but thanks for informing me, I guess. Now if you excuse me, I'll be changing my IP and becomeing a different person in about twenty seconds, cheerio!Sanitycult (talk) 01:58, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Reading this userpage (which describes the LDS as "horribly dangerous free will hating bigots"), it seems to be an obvious candidate for deletion, as Wikipedia is not a soapbox or place for attacks. Would anyone like to nominate at at MFD (or simply delete it)? TN <b style="color:midnightblue; font-size:larger;">X</b> Man  03:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Userpage deleted, block under consideration. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 03:20, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And done, for 72 hours. Others feel free to unblock, but only if you feel this user is not going to continue his anti-Mormon campaigns here on Wikipedia. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 03:25, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem with the block, but I wonder what the editor meant by "becomeing [sic] another person". Are they confused on what using a different IP address means or are they intending to create one or more sock accounts? TN <b style="color:midnightblue; font-size:larger;">X</b> Man  12:19, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * My guess would be that they meant the latter -- Deville (Talk) 18:52, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Improper block by Georgewilliamherbert
I received a 24 hour block for "edit warring" at Views of Lyndon LaRouche by User:Georgewilliamherbert. The article in question had seen 11 reverts spread evenly over a 17 day period, 5 by Will Beback, 4 by myself, and 2 by another editor. The 3RR threshold was never approached by anyone. As edit wars go, this didn't even rank as a skirmish. The negotiations on the talk page are presently succeeding. In my opinion, no admin intervention was necessary, but if such an intervention were necessary, Will should have been blocked as well, since it takes two (or three) to tango. Therefore, I believe that GWH's block was improper, and I would like to have it expunged and my clean record restored.

In this dispute, I simply maintained that a large-scale and contentious re-write of a stable section, involving several possible violations of BLP, should not proceed until all issues were resolved on the talk page. The LaRouche articles have gone through a period of relative peace and quiet, and I think that all editors would do well to be circumspect about initiating any fresh round of POV warfare.

Now to a more serious matter. I received a warning on my talk page from GWH, advising me that I was in violation of the various LaRouche-related arbcom decisions. With all due respect, this is utter hogwash. I began editing Wikipedia two years ago. After a while I began to observe the POV battles at the LaRouche articles without participating, other than to leave an occasional comment on a talk page. I never touched a LaRouche article until October of last year, and my occasional edits since then have never involved adding material, either positive or negative, about LaRouche or his group. I have edited only when I observed violations of policy, and my edits have been limited to reverts or to posting policy tags. GeorgeWilliamHerbert's threat to me is incorrect, inappropriate and should be withdrawn. --Leatherstocking (talk) 15:28, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Edit warring blocks aren't restricted to violation of 3RR. Why didn't you appeal the block? Dougweller (talk) 16:11, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * All LaRouche articles are under a long list of mediation and arbitration restrictions as long as my arm. These are clearly visible on every talk page related to LaRouche.  Editors must take caution.  Also, 3RR is not a liscence to revert three times per day.  You may be blocked for edit warring on any article at any time if your editing shows a willingness to use reverting as a method of forcing others to accept your personal view of how the article should read, regardless of how often you do it.  The compelling reason for an edit war block is the appearance of using the revert function to stifle others contributions.  --Jayron32. talk . say no to drama  16:48, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Leatherstocking had been actively participating in discussions with Will on the talk page, but had also taken to simply reverting saying "No consensus for that". It appeared that he'd crossed the line into sterile reverting rather than good faith discussions at the time I blocked him.
 * We have the long, long problem history with this topic; that very article was full protected for much of the last two years.
 * Leatherstocking's edits appeared to be pro-LaRouche; he appeared to have escalated to sterile reverting; the articles still have special attention due to ongoing efforts to insert POV.
 * Will Beback has been attempting to work with everyone to build the best, NPOV and not whitewashed article we can there. I've tried to stay well back out of the content issues so that he can be the admin working content and I can be the admin working enforcement when socks show up and try to abuse things, to avoid either of us having a COI over content / enforcement issues.
 * Leatherstocking - If you really have no pro-LaRouche agenda, everything you gained by those reverts would be gained equally well by long term talk page discussions. Will is extremely ethical and determined to do the right thing there.  Please take the step back and talk to him more determinedly.  He knows all about BLP and NPOV.  He's one of our admins - with many many years experience.  Work with him more collaboratively and there's no problem going forwards.
 * Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * George, I think that you might want to take a closer look at the talk page (particularly before you block someone.) I have been fully engaged in the talk page negotiations. As I mention at the beginning of this post, I simply maintained that a large-scale and contentious re-write of a stable section, involving several possible violations of BLP, should not be posted to the article until all issues were resolved on the talk page. Will was repeatedly and aggressively pushing to post his new version of the section (he also wrote the old version of the section) while three other editors still had serious, unresolved objections. I had not "escalated to sterile reverting," nor was I trying to "insert POV" -- I was negotiating to restrain the insertion of POV. The block of me was premature and incorrect, and I am asking here to have it reversed and my clean record restored.


 * Now, in response to Jayron32, the arbitration committee rulings are really quite simple. Aside from user-specific remedies, it boils down to this:
 * 1. Don't use LaRouche publications as source material other than in LaRouche articles (LaRouche 1)
 * 2. Don't use Wikipedia to promote LaRouche (LaRouche 1)
 * 3. BLP applies to LaRouche (LaRouche 2, post-decision)


 * As I mentioned at the beginning of this post, my occasional edits have never involved adding material, either positive or negative, about LaRouche or his group. I have edited only when I observed violations of policy, and my edits have been limited to reverts or to posting policy tags. With this approach, I am in no danger at all of running afoul of the arbcom decisions. --Leatherstocking (talk) 15:27, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I signed onto Wikipedia:The Great Wikipedia Dramaout, so I won't comment here beyond saying that there are other sides to this story.    Will Beback    talk    04:22, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

User:AndreaCarax
Time for a nice big long block. has been blocked three times for edit-warring on, and today she did it again. Previous similar edits were here,here, here, here, here, here, here, ... hell, you get the drift.&mdash;Kww(talk) 12:35, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sockpuppet investigations/AndreaCarax opened as well.&mdash;Kww(talk) 12:55, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * For now, a reminder of WP:3RR should do. I'll try to keep an eye on it, in case waring starts up again, rather than a single edit and revert.  Cheers.  <i style="color:green;">lifebaka</i>++ 14:49, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Note:obvious socking].&mdash;Kww(talk) 15:58, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I am curious as to how repeating an edit after being blocked three times for making it would possibly justify a warning. Three blocks aren't warning enough?&mdash;Kww(talk) 16:01, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Brains, I need them. The obvious socking shoulda' clicked, sorry.  Blocked for a week, due to the second revert.  Cheers.  <i style="color:green;">lifebaka</i>++ 16:33, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * LB, I would suggest an indefinite block, as, per the SPI report, this account is a banned user evading their ban.—  Dæ dαlus <sup style="color:green;">Contribs  04:41, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Legal threat
Could an admin look at and this edit summary ("I have removed, now for the third time, an article which is defamatory and will litigate if it is reinstated. Pleasse take this seriously") on the Ceawlin Thynn, Viscount Weymouth article. --<font color="#000000">Web <font color="#ff0000">H <font color="#000000">amster  23:40, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * User blocked until they retract the statement. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 23:42, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ironically, another user has removed the same info, citing BLP violation. It would seem there is a fine line being walked here. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 02:06, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

probation, or something at Talk:Centrifugal force
Nearly a year ago I initiated this RFC, and ended up giving up in disgust and un-watchlisting the page. Random Wiki-happenstance led to me viewing the current talk page today, and guess what? Nothing has been resolved in over a year of argument. I'm no physicist, but it looks to me like the same conversation spiraling on and on endlessly, mostly with the same users who were doing the same thing last July. The talk page sometimes sees 100 edits in a day, from only three or four users! Personally, I'm not going to wade back into this mess, but I thought a post here might prompt... something, anything, some attempt at sanity through article probation or other WP:SANCTIONS or, something else that can end this madness. Honestly, this is one of the most screwed up things I've ever seen on Wikipedia, a circular argument that never ends, and users who apparently never tire of arguing on the same subject. Beeblebrox (talk) 09:07, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, so you visited WP:WQA today :-) The problem when people who are involved in the sciences is this:
 * in science, you're more important the more you write
 * many scientists have different points of view on any given topic
 * all scientists are right
 * These corollaries cause all the problems. (Note: the second is the only one that is actually true). ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 09:49, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've popped over there and said that my gut feeling is that this saga won't stop without a topic ban. It is probably time to do something about it, it's been going on far too long and the discussions on that talk page would put anyone off from trying to edit the article, and we shouldn't allow that situation to persist. Dougweller (talk) 10:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This showed up at ANI in November last year (here) and was eventually closed after David Tombe and Brewers_ohare resolved to take their discussion off-wiki. Those two users (plus a couple of others) are clearly still up to the same endless arguing; I'm thinking topic bans may become necessary if this doesn't abate. ~ mazca  talk 12:00, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The pattern I am seeing at Centrifugal force and related pages is one of long term POV pushing by . Basically, David Tombe is attempting to bring Wikipedia into  line with his own peculiar views about physics.  This is being resisted by several users. Recently, David Tombe has been [forum shopping in an unsuccessful attempt to gain an advantage over  [[user:FyzixFighter|FyzixFighter]], who is one of those resisting David Tombe.   Cardamon (talk) 19:40, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This diff] should give some idea of David Tombe's agenda on Wikipedia. More information about David Tombe's highly unusual beliefs about physics can be found here . Cardamon (talk) 08:19, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Alright, it seems others are seeing what I see, let's take this to the next step:

Topic Ban on User:Brews ohare and User:David Tombe

 * Should these two editors be banned from editing this article and it's talk page, and related articles due to their extremely prolonged arguments on the talk page?

Support

 * Beeblebrox (talk) 16:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Support topic ban for David Tombe only. Cardamon (talk) 19:40, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Having watched this play out for a while but being otherwise uninvolved, I believe a topic ban for David Tombe only would be the best approach. Looie496 (talk) 23:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Support a physics topic ban for David Tombe only. I can manage my dealings with Brews, but David's disregard of WP:AGF & WP:CIV and WP:FRINGE, WP:RS, & WP:OR is just too much. FyzixFighter (talk) 13:27, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Support topic ban for Tombe only.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 14:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Suppoert topic ban for Tombe only right now-- this is the least we can do to improve editing in this area. I've watched this for a year or so, and Tombe's behaviour makes an impossibly uncomfortable and disruptive environment for other editors. I don't see Tombe as an asset to Wikipedia, and we wouldn't tolerate his behaviour on other articles. Dougweller (talk) 14:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Support topic ban for Tombe only. My attention was brought to this matter via a rant Tombe placed on Jimbo's talk page. Having run through the history of this all I'm seeing from Tombe is a stubborn attitude, which borders on harassment. A content dispute is a content dispute but for a year David Tombe seems to have done nothing but circle around this, he even made comment in this section when it would have been more appropriate in the section below. At this point it may be best if Tombe stepped back. Darrenhusted (talk) 19:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Support topic ban, or reinstate the complete ban for David Tombe. He has already been banned; it was overturned by a |single administrator. You'll note that David Tombe still believes that it's all a conspiracy against him.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 21:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * User:Brews ohare doesn't work well with others. That's a huge negative in the wikipedia which is all about collaborative working. I am agnostic on whether he should be banned, but he does cause significant friction with most other editors with his editing style.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 21:34, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Support physics topic ban for David Tombe, see my comment below. --Steve (talk) 22:39, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

So the numbers mount up for censorship as the pressure mounts up on FyzixFighter to reveal his reasons for trying to deny that the convective term in equation 3-12 of Goldstein is the centrifugal force. Six so far, including FyzixFighter himself! And how many of the other five have got a background in physics? David Tombe (talk) 18:04, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * OK you seven, you've hung your colours to the mast, so now it's time to do your homework. Six of you do not have a physics background and therefore couldn't possibly know what the dispute is about. So I would suggest that you all run along and and come back when you have carefully gone through the last edit of mine that FyzixFighter deleted, and present your evidence here in a clear and concise manner. We will be looking for evidence of unsourced material and/or original research. David Tombe (talk) 21:17, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You're not doing yourself any favours you know. Wikipedia is not an encyclopaedia for experts, and consensus rarely favours the "I'm an expert so leave me alone" approach.  If FyzigFighter is deleting sourced material, show us some diffs and we can all look at them.Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:56, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Mr. Tombe, you do not hold a Ph.D. in physics, so by the standards of many people you have no physics background. I read through the Talk page of Centrifugal Force and I googled your name and then followed the links to crankish websites where you expound your views in the face of opposition from real physicists. I am sorry but I feel that a topic ban is the best solution for all concerned. --Goodmorningworld (talk) 13:19, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "Six of you do not have a physics background and therefore couldn't possibly know what the dispute is about", as it turns out you don't know me, so I'd appreciate it if you stuck to the subject, which is your behaviour. Darrenhusted (talk) 09:43, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1) I see no reason to assert that the article proper is excessively edited, and I tend to think that long discourses on article talk pages are not intrinsically evil.  A solution in search of a problem. Collect (talk) 17:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I completely disagree with both the points you make here, as the facts do not support them. The article is being edited much too often for such a trivial topic, and the talk pages for this topic isn't just 'long' is positively obscene. At one point I did the archive and the talk page archives were about a megabyte; and most of that was people arguing with David Tombe; it died right down when he was banned.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 21:21, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Nice to see you Wolfkeeper. I knew it was only a matter of time before you'd come along and join the party. But you need to get your facts straight. Those facts are very easy to check. I was banned from the end of July 2008 until mid-October 2008. The edit war raged continuously during that period. It is very easy to check. In fact, I was very upset at the time that because I wanted to join in, in order to back up editor Fugal. It was my attempts to communicate with Fugal on the side that got me banned permanently. What kind of justice was that? David Tombe (talk) 21:32, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, you used sockpuppets when banned. You were trying to push your POV even when banned. Which part of banned don't you understand?- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 21:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Any evidence for that? Even at this stage he could still be called on it.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:57, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If I recall, most of the "sockpuppetry" was done on User talk:Fugal, where Tim Carrington West and the 217.- and 81.- anon IP's were David, and on other user talk pages. David did use the anon IPs 217.44.75.36 and 217.42.108.55 to participate in a debate on a centrifugal force article talk page while under a block. --FyzixFighter (talk) 23:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's right. Check out the indefinite block he received because of it: - (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 23:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You've just ducked the important point that the edit war raged continuously even when I was banned. You claimed otherwsie. You misrepresented the facts. David Tombe (talk) 21:41, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, you used a sockpuppet ensure that, while you were blocked.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 23:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) As an interested party, my view is that the discussion is just normal WP back and forth. Brews ohare (talk) 19:45, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) As an interested party, my view is that the argument has gone on much longer than necessary because the controversial material in question was initially opposed as a knee jerk reaction on the erroneous belief that is was unsourced original research. Although that idea has now been dispelled, the momentum of those who opposed the material in the first place has kept the argument going. A wider investigation needs to be conducted before individual editors are singled out for sanction. This needs to be done by editors that are knowledgeable about the content matter of the dispute. David Tombe (talk) 20:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose for full disclosure I know David off-wiki from another online community. From what I know of David and this situation, a topical ban isn't appropriate. I am on a mobile right now, and will expand my reasons shortly (3 hours aprox.) -- Ned Scott 02:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Err, scratch that, got my David's mixed up. Rest of it still stands. -- Ned Scott 06:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I have explained below why editing physics/math articles requires one to discuss the actual physics. A very narrow discussion limted to direct quotes from sources can lead to very bad articles. I have given a few examples of such bad articles. From time to time you can then have problematic editors, I also addressed that a bit in that section below. Banning people just becase they talk too much on the talk page is a very bad idea.

What you can do is organize the debates on the talk page better, have some votes on how to proceed with the article. Then if one dissenting editor keeps on reverting the article against the consensus, you can raise that here. That would be a better way to deal with any problem editors. Count Iblis (talk) 13:30, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Article probation
Should the article and talk page Centrifugal force be placed on probation, with editors subject to WP:SANCTIONS?

Support

 * Beeblebrox (talk) 16:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Dicklyon (talk) 06:04, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment As somebody who is at the very least peripherally involved in this debate, it wouldn't bother me if myself, David Tombe, FyzixFighter and Brews Ohare were all topic banned. There's enough people around that understand this topic to stop it going to hell in a handbasket, whereas with David Tombe on-wiki it requires constant watching.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 21:59, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

 * 1)  A solution in search of a problem - I see no reason to object to the number of edits on the article page, so it boils down to being upset at excessive use of a talk page - which I think is insufficient to invoke any specific actions. Collect (talk) 17:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) Banning people from entering into discussion is always going to be a bad idea, and will never solve any underlying issue/problem. <font color="#C4112F">╟─TreasuryTag►most serene─╢ 17:34, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose -- Ned Scott 02:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose, see my vote in the previous section. Count Iblis (talk) 13:33, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Further discussion

 * I haven't informed the involved parties about this thread, out of concern that they would jam up this page with their usual fifty or sixty edits to make one point, but I guess somebody should probably tell them. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's worth noting that the for first four years this page was on Wikipedia, the page was archived five times. In Talk:Centrifugal force/Archive 6 from April of '08, we can see the genesis of this conflict as these two come onto the scene. The next seven archives are mostly these two going back and forth, although it's worth noting that User:WolfKeeper and User:FyzixFighter are also significant contributors to the fray. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've informed both users. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 19:00, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You really do need to let people know about this page. IF they are excessively verbal that would strengthen any point you were trying to make. I have no particular comment to make, apart from to ask editors/admins to look at brews contribs to the 'wavelength' discussions.  Perhaps someone could help brews contribute in a more constructive manner? 87.113.86.207 (talk) 17:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I've taken the liberty of analyzing the last 100 changes to the article, ending with this version. Seven users have one edit each, including four IPs. One user has two edits, and another has three; a third has six. The remaining eighty-two edits are accounted for by three people. These 100 edits took place over a period of thirty days, of which fourteen days passed with no edit; but the article has been edited every day from the ninth onward, with 79 edits in those six days, or thirteen edits a day. Only seven edits are not by the same three people mentioned above, and of that, and four of those are two IP vandalisms and their reversions. Mangoe (talk) 18:26, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Reply to opposers The problem as I see it is that this overly long horribly belabored debates intimidate users new to the page, and it seems the two main antagonists are never going to agree. While I realize the need to discuss changes, this endless circular debate has the effect of making previously uninvolved users not want to join in to such a protracted debate. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:40, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If you can't be bothered to follow the discussion, you shouldn't raise this problem (unless the problem is a straghtforward disruption of wikipedia, of course). Neverending discussions in physics topics can be effectively dealt with by letting an expert to take final decisions. If you are no an expert in physics, you are not the right person to get involved here at all. Count Iblis (talk) 20:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Last time I checked, this was still Wikipedia, not Citizendium. And if the argument is about the science itself as opposed to the article itself then it shouldn't be on the article talk page. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:37, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * As one of the involved editors, in my view there are two issues with respect to David Tombe that make it difficult to work cooperatively with him. The first is David's complete disregard for reliable sources. The long talk page debates are due in part to other editors trying to teach David correct physics (and him teaching them his version of physics) usually without directly talking about sources. For the last little while I've tried to eschew such behavior and to keep strictly to quoting and discussing sources. This has had very limited effectiveness. However, it was through a source provided by another editor that I became aware of the Lagrangian mechanics usage of the term which I was previously unaware of. The second and more problematic issue is David's interactions with editors that disagree and resist his fringe POV pushing, which the report I made at WP:WQA touches upon. When a request for a source results in something like this, what can you do? Since I'm an involved party, I won't "vote", but I definitely support a topic ban for David Tombe. --FyzixFighter (talk) 20:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * My two cents, from a somewhat-involved editor: An argument with David Tombe about physics is like an argument with Jim Marrs about who assassinated JFK. If this was an argument about whether JFK was killed by aliens, we would have long ago banned the editor who was actively researching and promoting fringe theories. But David Tombe, who is actively researching and promoting his own fringe physics theories, is still here and still editing. Why? I don't know. Probably because most administrators don't know any physics so can't follow what's going on. --Steve (talk) 20:38, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Would it be possible to have separate sections for the proposed topic ban for Brews and proposed topic ban for David? I'm betting that several editors have stronger feelings with respect to one of them - I know I do. Some of the responses below are about one of the editors, only a few are talking about both. The WQA reported that might have partially precipitated this report was about only one of these editors. It could also help to focus the discussion a bit. --FyzixFighter (talk) 02:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * FyzixFighter, there was an opportunity for compromise tonight on the centrifugal force page. You turned it down. You reverted my edit once again. You are getting bold because you have seen favourable noises on this page coming from editors who haven't got the first clue about the subject matter. But even any honest editor who doesn't know about physics would be able to see that my edit tonight was a genuine attempt to solve the impasse. You clearly don't want a compromise. I would request that anybody considering your suggestion here should look at the last two edits at centrifugal force before making any important decisions. If that were to be done by an honest and objective administrator I think that it would be you that would be subjected to the topic ban. David Tombe (talk) 02:54, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Editing physics and math articles requires extensive discussions
I've not interacted a lot with Brews, but from what I've seen he has the right approach toward editing physics articles. There was a dispute on the wavelength article that we at wikiproject physics were alerted to. When I took a quick look at the talk page there, I saw that while Brews was arguing on the basis of physics, the others shot that discussion down by citing from other sources and disputing things based on wiki law procedure etc.

Now, if you're dealing with a kook who doesn't know much about physics, then sticking to wki law may be appropriate, any discussions of the actual physics would be a waste of time. But Brews is an expert in physics and there can sometimes be difficult issues that one has to talk about even in case of elementary physics topics (usually this then has to do with finding rigorous definitions).

Let me give one typical example of a article in which things went terribly wrong. It was never discussed here, precisely because there was never a dispute between editors. The article Helmholtz free energy contained many mistakes for many years, until 2008. Not just small minor mistakes but huge mistakes that were never corrected. this was the latest flawed version, the section "mathematical development" was totally wrong. And similar mistakes were corrected by me in many other thermodynamics articles, so it was a systematic problem.

The only realistic way this error could have been corrected earlier is if someone had questioned the derivation and discussed that on the talk page, basically the way Brews goes about his business. The tradional wiki way of arguing on the basis of sources alone does not work well for these sorts of topics. The error is most conspicuous when you actually study the equations using paper and pencil and write about any problems on the talk page. The fact that what was written is in conflict with the literature would not easily lead to someone noticing the error. It may als be the case that there exist sources in which the erroneous derivation can be found. It is well known that in engineering and chemistry texts you can often find flawed derivations.

Of course, there are then other textbooks in which you can find the correct derivation. The problem is then that if you have someone who is resisting the correction being made, he could always dispute your source in the basis if his source. If you want to discuss the actual physics to settle the dispute, he could shoot that discussion down.

This is how Brews is being treated and that is completely wrong. Count Iblis (talk) 18:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: I disagree. It would seem to me that the core Policies effectively insist that we absolutely do not derive any equations ourselves, obviously this is WP:OR and not WP:RS, no matter how correct your derivation. If "expert[s] in physics ... dicuss the actual physics to settle the dispute," you are then conducting research, and using the talk page of the article as your secondary source. Obviously this will not work. The issue of errors in existing secondary sources seems well-handled by WP:NPOV. I think the erroneous approach that User:Count Iblis advises here is a common and systemic flaw in articles on science and engineering. IMHO. Eaglizard (talk) 21:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The core policies clearly led to severely flawed articles on thermodynamics and then Count Iblis came along in 2008 and rewrote them based on his notes he uses for teaching. So, it seems to me that I would be justified to invoke WP:IAR here. The articles I'm talking about were so flawed that any Prof. who teaches this subject who would have stumbled on the pages, should have warned his students to ignore the pages. Worse then not having studied a subject is having it learned wrongly.


 * Note that when we at university discuss teaching this subject with grad students and think about problems for students, we sometimes discuss things on the blackboard amongst ourselves. Is that "original Research"? Of course not! Why can't we look everything up in a book? We do do this, but a book doesn't always give you all the relevant details. Some subtle things are sometimes missing, some details are found in some other chapters. Note that the very reason why students are given difficult practice problems is precisely because you need to actually solve problems yourself to master the subject.


 * Writing a wiki article that explains things from first principles is as hard as teaching the subject at university. This can thus only be done by someone who is expert enough to be able to derive everything from first principles. And he must actually derive everything that goes in the wiki article himself to be absolutely sure it is explained correctly.


 * The mathematical derivation is the ultimate verification, not the citation to some book. Because what's in the book "Fundamentals of Statistical and Thermal Physics" on page 432 is only verifiable to someone who has the necessary physics background to be able to understand this book and has read the first 431 pages. So, a statement quoted from page 432 in isolation is not really a good verification of any statement. Count Iblis (talk) 22:55, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * This is not a good excuse to ignore all rules. But it is a good characterization of Brews's attitude that whatever he can derive, or whatever connection he can show to the topic, is fair game, whether he can find in support in sources or not.  Dicklyon (talk) 23:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with many of the points made by Count Iblis, but especially the last. The biggest problem with Wikipedia is lack of authority, and that is why a derivation is very important in WP: it provides credibility. Some editors think math is gobbledy gook, but in fact it is a succinct language devised to avoid logical error, or enable error to be traced back to the initial assumptions. It is not window dressing. It is exposition. It is not equivalent to its conclusions because it helps make the concepts clear. Brews ohare (talk) 23:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * But WP:V says otherwise. You need verifiability without requiring the reader to have the expertise to check your derivation.  You've made enough mistakes in your math-heavy stuff that you can't credibly claim that this "succinct language" is inherently more accurate or reliable than any other creation of fallible editors.  Without verifiability, we have nothing to restrain you with. Dicklyon (talk) 06:09, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If that's what WP:V says, then that is not applicable to some physics and math articles because if someone cannot understand the mathematical derivation, that person would not be able to understand the source. Often it is possible for an expert to explain a result from some technical physics subject that is taught at upper level graduate university, in such a way that it is understandable to high school students. But then just writing down the result without explanation and just giving a citation to the source which the target audiance cannot understand is a nonsensical thing to do. It is far better to present a taylor made derivation that can be understood by the target audience. Only then does the stament become verifiable to the target audience.


 * The examples of the flawed thermodynamics articles I gave prove my point. The flawed versions contained more references and were verifiable in the way WP:V requires. However, no one actually verified the content in that way, which explains why the huge mistakes coulkd have remained in the article for so many years. When I rewrote the articles, I decided not to give references to the literature. It is not that such references cannot be given, but giving the references would probably lead people to not check for errors. I derived everything from first principles in the articles, so these derivations themselves serve as the verification.


 * Giving a ref. where the derivation can be found is pointless, because if someone needs to verify the derivation in that way, then that person doesn't have sufficient knowledge to understand the article. Also, in some cases a suitable derivation cannot be found in any book at all, e.g. when the topic is typically discussed in textbooks for grad students or in reference books for researchers. Count Iblis (talk) 13:30, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Gah. What's you're espousing is somewhere between highly admirable and slightly stupid. It's admirable, because you can IAR to make it work, but it's stupid because without verifiability somebody sooner or later will come along and fix it (i.e. mess it up) from sources. The wikipedia holds verifiability higher than truth. You're saying that truth is more important, but it's unstable in the wiki, unless it's also verifiable. You're nearly always much better off finding a reliable source that actually gets it right and pointing to that- there's no prohibition at all against linking to grad-level textbooks.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 22:17, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm highly impressed with everything that Count Ibliss has said. It's time that those truths were spoken. Sources can be used maliciously, and that is happening right now on the centrifugal force page. I am being billed as the villain who doesn't abide by sources, and attempts are being made to get me removed from the project. But the truth is that certain elements are trying to keep well sourced key facts about centrifugal force off the page in the name of scientific political correctness, and hiding behind wikipedia's rules and regulations on consenus. I should emphasize the word 'consensus' because ultimately it has got nothing to do with sources. Any group of three can gang up against a single editor and claim to be on the side of sources. If the single editor produces a conflicting source, the other three only need to deny the contents of that source, and they will prevail by playing the consensus card while claiming to be playing the sources card. This has been going on at centrifugal force for over two years. And this entire thread here is a misrepresentation of the facts. Brews ohare is not my opponent in this. I have done collaborative editing with Brews ohare on other physics articles and it has never led to an edit war. The difference with centrifugal force is that there are certain other editors involved who are destroying any positive outcome from the discussions by continually opposing any important edit that I make. You can see that right now. If anybody wants to know the truth about this, go to 'centrifugal force' now and watch FyzixFighter playing his game of 'textbook whist'. Look at the history section for the last few days and you will see that it is only FyzixFighter who wants to remove my edits. But this thread has created a situation in which I am in the dock and FyzixFighter has been able to come along and act as an innocent prosecution witness. If you want to talk about topic bans then you should start by bringing in personnel who actually understand what the dispute is about, and you should bring every involved editor into the dock. This thread, by its very nature is totally biased because it has arbitrarily sought out two editors in particular without the slightest explanation as to why those two editors have been singled out, and then allowed their opponents in the dispute to come along as if they were innocent upstanding victims and make their complaints. David Tombe (talk) 00:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Right, FyzixFighter just wants to remove your edits; and I just want to remove Brews's edits. Anyone interested in finding out why will need to do some work, rather than just reading these complaints.  Dicklyon (talk) 06:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Dick, I would certainly hope that somebody does indeed do that work. They could start with the very last edit of mine that FyzixFighter removed. David Tombe (talk) 21:08, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Let me give two examples of successful talk page discussions were disputes were settled. In both cases discussing the physics form first principles was essential while direct quotes from sources were misleading.

Example 1:

Discussion with Ed Gerck

Ed Gerck is basically quoting things out of context from the literature and coming to erroneous conclusions. To see that he is wrong requires a working knowledge of special relativity. Refuting qoutes by Ed Gerck by directly by other quotes would not be a practical way to end the dispute. I'm pretty sure that had there been no expert editors at the special relativity page, Ed Gerck's edits would not have beeen opposed, because to lay persons, everything looks ok: You have statements directly sourced from the literature and Ed Gerck provides direct quotes, so what could possiblly be wrong? :)

Example 2:

Discussion with anon on Helmholtz energy

Here the anon claims that the constant volume condition is not necessary, he has a source that says so. Of course, I have a source that claims that it is necessary, but merely stating that would not end the dispute. It is essential that one understands why the sources make different statements and that cannot be easily extracted from a source in the form of a single quote. You must have mastered the subject to see this. So, I explain in detail what is going on here. Count Iblis (talk) 23:46, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I am not involved in the centrifugal force dispute, but I edit primarily mathematics articles, so I have a great deal of perspective on these issues. Count Iblis' comments are very apt: one cannot solve these sorts of disagreements by just throwing around random quotes from sources. As Cout Iblis has said, verifying a reference to page 401 in a book really requires understanding what the author has done in the first 400 pages, and the conventions she has established. A broad understanding of the literature is necessary to determine which statements are in agreement with the literature and which are idiosyncratic or taken out of context. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 00:04, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * This is not really the place to discuss this, but I will note that stating the facts in a reasonable form in the article, and including multiple references to reliable, notable sources that support the case is the correct way to proceed in the wikipedia; but they need not be presented identically to the source, provided they are equivalent. If the references are challenged then they can be discussed on the talk page. If references are not given, under the wikipedia's policies the material can be removed at any time. For fundamental epistemological reasons this is probably the only way it can work here; ultimately we do rely on experts, just not expert editors here, but experts that have written books and such like.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 00:22, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * In practice, at least in mathematics, we do rely heavily on expert editors. I have no reason to suspect that things are different in other sciences. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 00:39, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Example 1 that Count Iblis mentions above is IMO very similar to what we have going on with David. He's got his hands on a few sources and adopts a very fringe interpretation of what those sources say. When a wide spectrum of sources are provided that contradict his conclusions and interpretations, he disregards the mountains of additional sources as "rubbish". Multiple editors including myself have tried walking David through the derivation, but he adopts some rather strange limitations to the derivation (his vector triangle argument) and uses very nonstandard terminology (like what he calls radial acceleration). The exercise gets repeated over and over with David refusing to admit that his interpretation of the derivation is wrong. It is because of the futility of the past endeavors that I've stopped indulging David, and now try to limit discussion to talking about sources and how the sources can be synthesized together for the article. --FyzixFighter (talk) 00:56, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I will be away for a few days, but I would be willing to attempt to mediate the dispute when I return in the coming week. As I have said I am not involved or even familiar with the dispute at this point, although I am familiar with both WP policy and practice. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 01:04, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Some comments from Brews_ohare
I agree that a lot of debate has circulated on the various centrifugal force pages, which include Centrifugal force; Centrifugal force (rotating reference frame); Reactive centrifugal force and so forth. This debate is not all about the same thing, however, and none of these debates requires intervention limiting editors or topics for discussion, as is detailed next.

One subject has been a revolving discussion between D Tombe and various editors over the intuitive aspects of centrifugal force. D Tombe has his own perspective, and this discussion has generally not adopted his view. Nonetheless, IMO the articles have benefited by these discussions in becoming clearer and in adding particular examples that arose from these discussions. At the moment, this discussion is not prominent on the Talk pages. Related to this discussion is the desire by D. Tombe to eliminate Reactive centrifugal force on the basis that it is not distinct. I don't think that is supported by anyone else, and is not a topic consuming great space.

A second subject, also involving D Tombe, is the status of the planetary orbit example as a significant departure from other examples, warranting special discussion. This debate is presently ongoing, and I do not wish to state an opinion upon its eventual outcome. It is largely a judgment call upon the significance of this topic and whether it warrants a lot of attention. That might be settled "objectively" by google counting, by logic, by eloquence, or by WP lawyering such as this present attempt to curtail discussion.

A third subject, that involved many editors over a long period of time is the so-called "curvilinear Centrifugal force". This is a terminology that is rather mathematical in origin and relates to the use of (for example) polar coordinates, and to the interpretation of the radial equation in terms of centrifugal force. This particular issue has proved very difficult to deal with. The debate has been correspondingly extensive. At the moment, it has somewhat calmed down with the introduction of the Lagrangian approach to mechanics, which appears to subsume the "curvilinear Centrifugal force" as a special case. Unfortunately, this topic will arise periodically because there are schools of opinion that take the view that "curvilinear Centrifugal force" is the only kind, and with sources that refer only to this interpretation. Thus, the talk page often is a long discussion that eventually acquaints editors with the existence of disparate sourced viewpoints. That discussion will recur as editors believing in the "one and only one" centrifugal force show up. I do not think any action to suppress this discussion by banning editors from participation makes any kind of sense. Censorship may well lead to a complete distortion of the articles by removal of one point of view in favor of the others.

A fourth subject of recent origin concerns the inclusion of the topic of absolute rotation in the article Centrifugal force. Here again, my view is that this is simply a normal WP discussion, and it is at least so far, not long-lived. It is not a suitable subject for any action in banning editors. Brews ohare (talk) 19:47, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Some comments by David Tombe
I might be able to summarize the root cause of the dispute. It lies in the fact that the literature does not give a consistent view on the subject matter, and that the slant in the literature has been changing even in recent times. So part of the dispute even involves a conflict between two generations. On the issue of sources, we should take note of the very valid point that Count Ibliss has made. He correctly pointed out that sources can be used destructively against a person who has an overall comprehension of a topic. This is especially true when the literature contains a wide selection of confused and contradictory sources. This dispute is not a simple case of any particular editor ignoring sources.

The approach which I have wanted to promote (The Leibniz approach) is found in the modern literature. It is legitimate and its authenticity is no longer the subject of the dispute. But the Leibniz approach is not the approach which is being pushed as an introductory approach to centrifugal force in most modern textbooks. I have already conceded that point. The question is how to introduce the Leibniz approach into the article at the right level, bearing in mind that it not simply history.

The article has improved alot as a result of this ongoing debate. All editors involved have learned alot. A topic ban on any particular editor would merely give unfair advantage to a particular point of view. David Tombe (talk) 20:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * No, a topic ban on one particular editor will allow them some time to think about the difference between finding the truth and including only information that can be gleaned from reliable sources (emphasis on reliable). We still hold articles about the Earth being flat, but thankfully reliable sources have proven otherwise.  Once alternative theories of this article have valid reliable sources, then we'll move on to them.  Hey, how about a section in the article that is called "recent research" or something ... use only reliable sources, take 2 paragraphs to explain what the heck it is you insist belongs.  Draft it in you own sandbox first.  ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 17:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * In physics it is normally more to do with WP:UNDUE, if you look hard enough you can find at least some evidence to support the idea that the earth is flat... and that's what Tombe has been doing.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 22:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

BWilkins, you obviously haven't got the first clue what you are talking about. Planetary orbital theory is long established fact, still taught in the universities. It ill becomes you to come along here and compare it to the flat Earth theory. You have simply swallowed the lie that I have been trying to insert unsourced original research. I suggest that you check your facts before you speak. Do you have a physics background? David Tombe (talk) 17:41, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I assume you actually read what the real argument was that I was making, and didn't just focus on an pithy example. Besides, who gives a Massachusetts if I have a background in physics (read this illuminating essay)?!  Policy is clear: abide by it.  ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 18:19, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

OK BWilkins, so can you please repeat which policy that you think I am in breach of and then give us all a detailed explanation in relation to a particular edit which I have made? David Tombe (talk) 21:06, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Comments by uninvolved user Collect
Scientists are prone to disputes. This is a given. Are those disputes as seen on article talk pages wrong? No. It is how scientists work. It may not be how some writers on other stuff work, but it is a fact, and trying to use topic bans and the like is not the way to go in my opinion. In the case at hand, neither editor appears anxious to lose the colloquy with the other. That is sufficient, in my opinion again, to drop this matter. Collect (talk) 21:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Disputes between scientist I can stand. Such disputes on talk pages here should be civil and should respect policies of WP:RS and WP:V. Derivations on the talk pages are fine when everyone agrees on the same basic foundational definitions. However, when working with David, none of this happens. Just look at the latest response from him on the talk page . (I've never gotten anything so vitriolic from Brews.) David has been warned before that such disregard for WP:AGF is unacceptable. If not a topic ban, then what will work to prevent such behavior? --FyzixFighter (talk) 14:08, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Show me Tombes edit warring on the article proper maybe ... but such has not been shown.  The issue at hand is the question of whether people can post on talk pages freely.  Tombe, ohare, and Dicklyon seem to cover most of the usage (seems that DL is also part of the excessive post problem in that case).  None of them appear to be making excessive article edits AFAICT. IMHO, Topic Bans for using talk pages too much are not justifiable.  Collect (talk) 18:04, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

FyzixFighter, I stand by exactly what I wrote in that reply. You have been trying to turn the truth upside down. The convective term in Goldsetin's equation 3-12 is the centrifugal force. You are trying to tell us that it is the centripetal force. Put that equation side by side with the Leibniz equation. Now check off the two inverse square law gravity terms. They have negative signs and are attractive. They are the centripetal force. Now check off the two positive inverse cube law terms. They are the centrifugal force. And that's what Goldstein and Leibniz both call it. Why are you trying to suppress this equation? What is your ulterior motive? It's a pity that nobody is asking you this. David Tombe (talk) 17:46, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

More Coments From An Involved User
It seems to me that the idea of censoring Mr Tombe, an editor who seems to be the most informed of the editors and who has worked very very hard to make this article a physically accurate and meaningful one, is misplaced. The problem is not Mr Tombe but the inability of the other editors to actually open up to the fact that their ideas may not be as correct as they beleive. I wonder why censorsip is necessary if the ideas of Mr Tombe opponents are able to stand alone by themselves. Obviously they can not stand up to his criticism. I oppose censorship of any editor of wikipedia. Mr Tombe has done more for wikipedia and been appreciated less than any editor I know here. Instead of censoring him you should be giving him an award for his efforts to get the correct physics into this article. I oppose this proposed action. That would seem to go against the purpose of wikipedia, don't you think?71.251.185.49 (talk) 21:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC) — 71.251.185.49 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. No. I have seen many edits from an IP server like that over the last couple of years on centrifugal force and other physics articles. David Tombe (talk) 17:48, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * his efforts to get the correct physics into this article - unfortunately Wikipedia is not about "correct" physics. Wikipedia is about the physics in reliable sources, even if that physics is incorrect.  You'll see this happen with newspaper articles.  They'll be used to support something in an article, but the correction printed a few days later (which might totally destroy the newspaper report) does not get mentioned. 87.113.86.207 (talk) 22:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You got it. Straying from WP:V always ends in tears.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:00, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Comments by involved user Dicklyon
I've been actively involved in these disputes at Centrifugal force, too, and just saw this via the notification to Brews. In these articles, David Tombe is the outlier who has been forcing the protracted debates for 15 months or so. He is unyielding in his illogical and wrong-headed misunderstandings of all that the sources and other editors say. Brews, on the other hand, is also pretty much unyielding, and generally responds to David's and others' pushback by adding more and more mathematical and explanatory content, usually in runs of several dozen edits in a day, bloating articles and sections to big messes out of proportion to their relevance or importance. I'm sort of unyielding myself when I see people doing stuff like that, which is why I've been in an edit war with Brews at Wavelength (and now also Wave and Dispersion relation), where he has actually been a much bigger problem than at Centrifugal force.

If I had my way, I'd say ban both of them on any topics where they've demonstrated an inability to collaborate with other editors. Of course, I'd risk having someone judge me the same way, so I haven't pushed that approach. I've tried to get help via Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Physics and other sections there, but what little I got, Brews felt free to ignore. He continues to work hard on expanding the article, which is not all bad, but which makes life very hard for anyone who doesn't want to just let him run away in his idiosyncratic directions with it. Dicklyon (talk) 22:01, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Whether an explanation is out of proportion is a hard call. Maybe in a printed encyclopaedia one weighting applies, and in WP a different weighting for this simple reason: the printed case is written by one or maybe a few authors who can set the balance as they see it, and let's say for the sake of argument, make a sound judgment. However, that same article on WP would not fly because there are readers & editors that have different questions than those addressed (whatever their importance in some Platonic universe) and there are controversies that crop up that must be addressed somehow or they will go on forever. The basic points are these: WP is an interactive encyclopaedia with a very diverse audience. It is not a print encyclopaedia. Dicklyon complains about my bloated expansions; I have my complaints about his unduly brief oversimplifications. Brews ohare (talk) 23:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * But hard calls can be made in collaboration with others. On Wavelength, you proved your ability to go it alone in the face of unanimous opposition.  On Centrifugal force, which I created as a summary-style alternative to the messes you had created on the Centrifugal force (rotating reference frame) and other articles, you insisted on bloating it similarly.  Nobody supported you in that. Dicklyon (talk) 23:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I was not under the impression that this forum was a soap box to present personal opinions of each other, which cannot be supported properly without far more detail than a newspaper banner. It's objective is to assess the discussion at Centrifugal force, as I have done above Brews ohare (talk) 23:28, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know about objective, but there are other things to discuss when trying to decide what community sanctions to put on editors. Dicklyon (talk) 23:45, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

tl;dr. Why is this even here, to begin with, and why is it still being discussed? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 00:44, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Irreverent comments by Tim Shuba
This is all too typical, and a good example of why I choose not to work much on trying to provide serious content for this project.

David Tombe is a physics crank, and it is highly detrimental to treat him as if he is just another editor with the best interests of the encyclopedia in mind. It's easy enough to check Tombe's record off-wiki, where you may find a connection with a group of physics cranks called the Natural Philosphy Alliance, which I not so coincidentally tagged earlier for a g4 speedy deletion.

Cranks like Tombe run rampant on wikipedia, which is a big reason why physics articles in general are highly unreliable in spite of a lot of well-meaning contributors. Certain areas have undergone significant improvement since I've been paying attention, in part due to the Fringe Noticeboard and a collection of reasonably sane editors, but the idea that someone wishing to work on an article like centrifugal force should have to worry more about coutering obvious cranks than producing good information is ridiculous. It's little wonder that so many articles are substandard.

I don't particularly blame the average admin for these crank-induced problems, but I doubt things will improve much unless admins with an understanding of the subject are allowed to keep cranks out of such articles. I know how it goes: someone like me who says exectly what many others are thinking -- in this case, that Tombe is a detrimental crank and should be shown the door if we are a proper reference source -- is not showing good faith and is not following the doctrines of civility, et cetera. Well I don't care about that. I will continue (along with perhaps one or more of my legitimate sockpuppets) to do a very small amount to counter the large number of cranks found here, and let the chips fall where they may. Mostly, I have learned to just laugh at the pathetic state of the many articles that are crap due to this failure of the system.

So, whatever. Topic banning Tombe would be good for the other editors who are contributing to the article. In the wider context of cranks who soil many articles, it really doesn't matter. Until wikipedia decides that proper content is preferable to mollycoddling cranks and vandals, nothing substantial will change. Tim Shuba (talk) 01:53, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Tim, I challenge you to produce a single edit of mine that you consider to be a crank edit, and explain to everybody here exactly why you think that it is a crank edit. David Tombe (talk) 02:00, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that if Tim picked one of your edits at random, you could get me and several others to document why it's crank. Want to try?  Dicklyon (talk) 05:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Tim, I think that counting on admins is not going to help. You need to speak up and help us get to community sanctions when such things are happening.  I just saw what you mean about his off-wiki activities; his Open Letter to the President of the Royal Society is quite a hoot, as is his "Journal"; I thought he was just confused, but now I see that he is actually much worse than that.  Dicklyon (talk) 05:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Dick. I am not counting on admins for anything. This entire ridiculously long section should be collapsed or dev-nulled. No admin should be expected to wade into it, unless a particular admin has a serious interest in the subject. I only added to this nonsense because I saw it already in progress, and felt like gassing off. This is my final comment here. If the spirit moves me, I'll make a comment on your talk page or at the article talk. Tim Shuba (talk) 08:13, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Tim Shuba's parliamentary immunity
Tim Shuba openly admits above that he "is not showing good faith and is not following the doctrines of civility, et cetera." and that he doesn't care, and that he will continue to do so along with his sockpuppets. He seems to possess some kind of confidence that he has got parliamentary immunity from sanction, and that he is free to deliver insults and unsubstantiated allegations.

Can we all share in that immunity on this page? David Tombe (talk) 13:01, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

FyzixFighter Is The Current Problem Here
Despite the current opinion expressed here, there was a lot of progress, and most of the issues were resolved until Mr FyzixFighter wiped out all of the progress. So he is the one who should be banned. His action was uninformed and arbitrary. He was not involved in the compromises and then just wiped out all of the progress because of his personal dislike for Mr Tombe. This is not about the facts but about the personal ego trip of Mr FixitFighter who sees wikipedai as his personal play pen. I think you need to be discussing restrictions on him and slap his hand and ban him for awhile. Or better yet, ban him permanently as he is a big trouble maker. He doesn't know much about physics either. And that is another good reason to ban him.72.84.65.202 (talk) 12:54, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * IP's only edit, but geolocates to the same area that the SPA IP above does. Obviously a regular user. Dougweller (talk) 13:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * This IP pops up every time Tombe is under discussion to demand the banning of all who disagree with Tombe. No connection at all to Tombe, who has a distinctive writing style and who is in another part of the world anyway, and not very helpful.   Acroterion  (talk)  13:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't think it was Tombe, if I did I wouldn't have posted here, but would have asked for an SPI. Thanks though, I didn't realise that about the IP's behaviour over time. Dougweller (talk) 14:30, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The "not very helpful" was meant to describe the the IP, not you - sorry if it read that way.  Acroterion  (talk)  14:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, I didn't take it that way. :-) Dougweller (talk) 14:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems to be a different user, probably User:Fugal . He nearly always supports David Tombe.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 22:09, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I've always thought the 72/71.-- anon IP from Virginia was User:Electrodynamicist. --FyzixFighter (talk) 22:20, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Dougweller, I think that it's time that you took a look at the details of the argument. Do you have a physics background? I seem to recall at one stage reading that you do. The argument largely centres on one equation. That equation appears at 3-12 in Goldstein's 'Classical Mechanics'. It is identical in purpose to Leibniz's planetary orbital equation. It is a force equation in the radial direction. One of those forces is the gravitational inverse square law force. Nobody is disputing that. The other force is the inverse cube law centrifugal force. FyzixFighter is doing all that he can to keep this equation off the page, outside of the history section. That is what the dispute is all about. There is no point in all this talk about sources. The facts are well sourced. You need to be asking FyzixFighter, and some others, as to why they are so keen to hide this equation. In FyzixFighter's latest edit on the talk page, he attempted to claim that the inverse cube law term was the centripetal force. This is this kind of blatant distortion of the facts that have caused all the problem. And at the same time, he is trying to falsely accuse me of inserting unsourced material.


 * This is not about original research. This is about the total intolerance that comes with scientific political correctness. This explicit illustration of centrifugal force as a radially outward push that is induced by transverse motion is an intolerable fact in the eyes of many modern scientists because it is evidence of an absolute frame of reference for rotational purposes. It's for these same reasons that we are now witnessing a new editor, Martin Hogbin, wanting to remove the section on absolute rotation. I didn't even write that section. It is a modified version of a section on centrifugal potential energy that was on the centrifugal force article that I first saw in 2007.


 * There is absolutely no need for all your groundless and malicious allegations above. You need to show to everybody that you understand the subject matter before you can start making those kind of allegations.


 * Wikipedia needs to decide which way it wants to go. Is it going to be shown up now as an on-line encyclopaedia that strives to get information correct? Or is it going to be shown up as an on-line encyclopaedia that panders to mob rule and political correctness? David Tombe (talk) 17:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You know, even if you were right on the physics, I'd support a ban because of your behaviour. Dougweller (talk) 17:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I know you would. You made your animosity towards me clear last year, even though we had never met before. Can you please elaborate on exactly what behaviour you are talking about. You admit that you don't know who is correct. So why are you getting involved in this at all? David Tombe (talk) 18:09, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Can we just ban him because he can't even indent his discussions? Seriously, he's been here a long time... sheesh.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 22:09, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment from uninvolved user Elen of the Roads
I have never edited this article or interacted with David Tombe. However I have been involved with another physics article (Black hole), where an editor made repeated attempts to include material representing his view on the current understanding of General Relativity.

In the end, Wikipedia is not a place for scientists to debate theories with each other, and the talk pages should not be full of people lecturing each other on the correct interpretation of X theory or Y theory. Articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources - the knowledge of the editors is required to (a) find the sources and (b) rewrite the content in a form that avoids copyvio and is intelligible to the general reader.

Keeping that in mind provides a way to deal with the disputes of scientists that may not be to their taste, but is the one that meets the policies of Wikipedia.Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Elen of the Roads, If it was a simple matter of keeping to sources, the problem would have been solved two years ago. David Tombe (talk) 17:28, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Elen of the Roads, you have expressed an idealized picture that sometimes works. However, it evolves that sourced material is not invariably correct or correctly interpreted. I believe this point is made by Count Iblis, and accords with my own experience. He has suggested that at least in technical arguments a mathematical derivation sometimes can settle matters, although WP guidelines may not support such an approach.
 * I'd add that requiring an entire article be intelligible to the general reader is not always desirable, and is in fact not true of WP as a whole (see particularly the math articles, which are impenetrable in many cases). I'd suggest that the typical article should in fact have a gradation of levels, some intelligible to the general reader and some of interest to the more interested or demanding reader. Brews ohare (talk) 17:31, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with your point about correct interpretation of a source, some sources can be less than crystal clear. But the answer is not to go into reams of what is at the end of the day your own opinion (howevermuch based on your expert knowledge) on what the source means.  It is to go and find other sources that clarify what the first source meant.  Wikipedia is a tertiary source - it is a collection of the wisdom of secondary sources.  If source X is advancing a view that can be interpreted as (say) a challenge to Newton's 3rd law of motion, you go out and find what the scientific consensus is - or if there is no consensus, you find out whether this view is regarded as an acceptable theory by the scientific community, or whether it is disregarded as fringe nonsense.  I do wonder whether this is more difficult to do if one is an established expert (I mean, you might be a Cambridge professor of Newtonian mechanics for all I know, and actually be extremely well placed to say whether X interpretation is brilliant or barking), as what one would expect to do is explain it onesself.Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

You've hit the nail on the head here. The expert is not likely to spend a ton of time trying to track down hundreds of sources so he can outnumber the wrong view. He's likely to say, look Landau and Lifshitz and Schwinger say this, and they are experts. The opposing view will not necessarily agree upon the expertise. So one derives the result and says: look you guys, if you don't like it, show where it is mistaken. That will shut them up. They now will turn instead to Wikilawyering. Brews ohare (talk) 05:15, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not convinced deriving the result shuts up the fringe theorists with perpetual motion machines anyway, but it may work with those who are just terminally confused, and I can understand why you do it. It certainly makes some talk pages very interesting, and I've learned a lot, but it's an unsatisfactory process if the other guy carries on peddling his perpetual motion solution. Wikilawyering is a downside whatever you do I suspect, a product of the personality type.Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Adjournment
I suggest that this thread be adjourned while the prosecution prepares their case. The seven prosecution witnesses have been referred to the last edit which I made to the centrifugal force page, and which was reverted by FyzixFighter. When they return with their indictment, I expect that they will be very carefully cross examined for clear evidence of original research and/or unsourced material. David Tombe (talk) 21:26, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * So, I trust my point is becoming clearer to those who previously didn't see any problems here... Beeblebrox (talk) 23:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment by an uninvolved admin
Would anyone object too loudly to me blocking David Tombe for three months to give the rest of us a break? He seems to be the catalyst for the pages upon pages of discussion; without him, I expect things to quiet down. --Carnildo (talk) 22:05, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As someone staring at this mess from the outside, I'd say go for it. If nothing changes, then at least he will have proved his point that it's not him.  Incidentally, I note a report above that the last time he was blocked, he took to sock farming.  Someone might watch out for that.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Support. I haven't interacted with him at all but if the mess on this page is typical of what he leaves in his wake, he's not being a net benefit to the project. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:30, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh ... my ... God. David Tombe -- do you remember that it was me who unblocked you, giving you a last chance in October 2008, while others were calling for, and had just about succeeded in obtaining, your permanent ban?  Looking at this massive gas-cloud that has quite suffocated the ANI page, not to mention several article talk pages, I'm starting to think I made a bad decision.  Yep, I'm with Carnildo here.  Antandrus  (talk) 23:14, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I no longer support a block for David Tombe. On reflection, I see the following:  1) I am not willing to do it myself, in good conscience, and therefore it seems reasonable to oppose letting someone else do it; 2) I neither understand the physics, nor am willing to read through the massive amount of verbiage, to determine that David should be blocked, and one must be absolutely certain about a block to implement it -- we have way too much use of the block button around here for people trying to contribute in good faith, methinks; 3) I think it sets a bad precedent, since most of the action is on talk pages.  Count Iblis says it well.  If many users feel that David is truly disruptive, then there are less draconian methods to address the problem, such as article probations and topic bans, and I'd rather see these discussed by those knowledgeable in the topic area. Antandrus  (talk) 15:36, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Are not science (or fringe aspects of science) articles under some kind of arbcom sanction? (apologies if i got the wrong term) and with previous consent for permanent ban, isn't there a possiility that david tombe would get a long block or even a an that no-one is prepared to lift? and would other editos see that, and then reflect upon the importance of 5 pillars???87.113.86.207 (talk) 00:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I take a nice long break, come back, and find arguments about physics clogging up half of ANI. I'm not sure what conclusions to draw from that... Anyway, support a nice long block for Tombe and a stern wag of the finger at Brews for perpetuating the situation. Opabinia regalis (talk) 02:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Care to point out just what I have "perpetuated"? Perhaps my introduction of the Lagrangian approach to centrifugal force (a well sourced mainstream approach) "prolonged the argument? Perhaps the hashing out of several concrete examples of Centrifugal force "prolonged the argument? My view is that you have made a snap judgment here based upon column inches rather than content and ultimate impact upon the articles. Brews ohare (talk) 15:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I suppose it goes without saying that I fully support Carnildo's suggestion, but I'm saying it anyway. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Please do. Dougweller (talk) 04:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Support suggestion. Ironholds (talk) 06:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Strongly oppose Banning him like that would be a huge abuse of admin tools. It's already been established that no actual "rules" are being broken here, no evidence of edit warring has been shown, just a bunch of editors who have a lot of disagreements and arguments on the talk page. It's the nature of some topics such as this, and just blocking one side to shut them up is entirely inappropriate and unacceptable. -- Ned Scott 06:00, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Let's not lose track of the facts here. This began as a complaint by one editor that there was too much talking going on at the centrifugal force talk page. Brews ohare and I were singled out for special mention despite clear evidence that others are involved on that talk page. A topic ban was then proposed for the two of us. It has rapidly turned into an arena where certain editors are campaigning to have a ban imposed on me. Let's not forget the fact that absolutely no offences have been committed. There are alot of malicious allegations being brandished by persons who admit to not knowing about the details of the situation. Nobody is prepared to elaborate or indeed give any details of their allegations. The entire situation will become clear if FyzixFighter's last revert on the centrifugal force main page is fully investigated. David Tombe (talk) 06:43, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, he kind of did break a rule - I pointed out to him that he had gone over WP:3RR here. But more disruptively to the cooperative effort than this, he routinely disregards WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL making interactions with him on the talk page completely disruptive (see the WQA report for tip of the iceberg examples) since it is impossible to disagree with him or draw his attention to sources that contradict his view without being accused of having ulterior selfish motives or being part of a conspiracy to cover up the truth or just being an idiot. This is David's consistent modus operandi. Is such behavior really acceptable interaction on talk pages? --FyzixFighter (talk) 06:54, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * He's already been permanently banned for sockpuppetting and edit warring. But even when given a last chance he's never stopped edit warring, he just doesn't (often) hit 3RR, but he's still edit warring, continously. How many 'last' chances do you give him? This is it: he got to go.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 13:16, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Support permanent block/ban; he has been given every chance to be a useful contributor, and has proved that that's impossible. I also support the "stern wag of the finger at Brews for perpetuating the situation". Dicklyon (talk) 07:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I would agree that discussion has been circular at times, or maybe a spiral is a better description. However, the complaining editors here don't have to engage in these discussions if they don't want to. They are simply annoyed that they cannot deliver the pithy one-two punch that settles an issue. That hurts their self image as amazing savants. There is no substantive reason to curtail these discussions. Brews ohare (talk) 15:48, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Dicklyon, you cannot be serious! This just exposes the thread for the pantomine that it is. You are one of the contributing editors to the centrifugal force talk page and you have now seen this thread as a golden opportunity to deliver a punch against your two opponents. It's only a farce like this that could permit a situation where Brews and I have suddenly ended up in the dock while you FyzixFighter, and Wolfkeeper can now throw cabbages. It's all becoming a bit of an Alice in Wonderland situation. A proper investigation into the situation, if there had actually been a problem at all, would have involved clear indictments against all editors concerned. How come that you and FyzixFighter got off the hook? David Tombe (talk) 15:55, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Support I've tried to wade through this and sort it out; I'm getting the same feeling that David Tombe is not going to be able to interact here productively which looks to me like an indefinite ban is called for. I agree with Dicklyon as well, that Brewer should remember not to make situations worse. Shell   babelfish 12:26, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry Shell but I have to respond to what you have just said. You seem to think that the fruitful discussions between myself and Brews, which have greatly expanded both our knowledge of this topic, seem to represent some kind of problem for wikipedia that warrants me being permanently banned. Last year I argued alot with Brews. The situation changed dramatically when Brews discovered Lagrangian mechanics. That was new to me, but the concepts were so closely related to what I had been explaining about polar coordinates that it changed the whole nature of the debate. Even FyzixFighter has admitted that he hadn't previously been aware of centrifugal force in polar coordinates. I think that you need to study the debate more carefully before advocating draconian measures. If you can't understand the subject matter, you shouldn't be involved here. David Tombe (talk) 13:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This is not about whether or not someone understands the subject and its a bit offensive that you assumed the lack here and asserted it as a reason to invalidate my opinion (I see you've done this with many others throughout the thread). This is about your ability or lack thereof to conform to the standards expected of Wikipedia editors.  You seem to be under the misunderstanding that your assertion that you know more about the subject than others somehow excludes you from the policies and guidelines that every editor is expected to follow. I think everyone had hoped for better when you got a second chance after the last indef block. Shell   babelfish 13:56, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I have seen no problems with D Tombe following the block. I agree that one can identify abusive behavior without understanding the subject. (I'd say that Wolfkeeper and Dicklyon have shown very obvious indications of same.) However, much of the objections raised are not about abusive behavior, but about the length or course of the discussion, and these objections are not useful if they are not based upon explicit examples that probably cannot be evaluated without an understanding. Brews ohare (talk) 19:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose Absent any article problems, the use of a block for a content dispute on a talk page is not a good idea. Collect (talk) 13:56, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * He's causing nothing but article problems. To my knowledge off-hand none of his edits has ever survived in the article... but he keeps on editing... over several years. There's never been any realistic claim by anyone that this is just the other editors ganging up on him either, there's no RFCs on that anywhere, it's just his edits are consistently poor quality, over several years, and people are having to constantly revert him.- (User) Wolfkeeper (Talk) 14:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Strongly oppose D Tombe has raised good points that have improved the articles. His ideas have led to clarifications, examples, citation of sources, and rewording even where his thesis has not made it into the article. It is a very bad precedent to ban an editor that is trying to improve WP just because of the impatience of some hot-heads. Brews ohare (talk) 15:39, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Shell, show us all the evidence of what you have just said. This thread began as an allegation that there was too much talk going on on a talk page. It has now been transformed into an opportunist theatre for FyzixFighter, Wolfkeeper, and Dicklyon to try and get me off the project.
 * There hasn't been a single substantiated allegation of any wrong doing on my part. There is no edit war going on and the discussion on the talk page is not unreasonable. I can't imagine myself ever intervening on a discussion page about a topic which I had no interest in, nor knew anything about, and then singling out an individual editor for a permanent ban as a means of reducing the amount of discussion. This whole thread has become one monumental farce. If any administrator takes the draconian action which is being demanded here by my opponents on that talk page and also by the continuing stream of uninvolved editors, then it will be a gross abuse of the administrator tool.
 * On this thread, there is alot of noise going on about nothing. I have already suggested that the accusers produce their evidence, but so far we have seen nothing of any substance. Equally, there has been a total refusal to examine FyzixFighter's last revert on the centrifugal force article. David Tombe (talk) 15:36, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey there Brews, I know you don't like this and are offended by it, as I'm sure anyone would be in your position, but I'd really appreciate it if you could dial back the personal attacks. I don't believe it's at all fair to characterize me as a "hot-head" since I've been aware of this for over a year before coming to ANI, and the idea that the only problem here is that I or others are "simply annoyed that they cannot deliver the pithy one-two punch that settles an issue. That hurts their self image as amazing savants." Since I'm the one who brought this here, I can only assume you are at least partially referring to me, and, aside from being dead wrong about my motivations, it's just not very nice. I would also remind all of you that you don't have to be an expert to contribute to an article, that's just not how Wikipedia works. The purpose here is to try and prevent this article from being a walled garden, where only those who have been arguing for a year can even wrap their mind around what is being discussed on the talk page. I don't understand how anyone could look at the absurd length of these discussions and conclude that they are only reasonable discussion of the article itself. There seems to be a larger debate going on here about the accuracy of the underlying science behind the sources, making this a discussion that probably does not belong on Wikipedia at all, no matter it's length. It's not up to us to interpret the source material, or to create new theories, but merely to report on what is already available. I'm sure you guys are aware of this, but you would never know it from that talk page. And David, badgering everyone (even those who don't want you banned!) and acting like this is a court of law is not helping you at all, although it from my perspective it is helpful as it demonstrates what it is like to try and interact with you. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:29, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Beeblebrox, if I stumbled across a lengthy debate on a topic that I knew nothing about, I would simply walk away from it. I wouldn't drag out two of the contributors at random and put them in a pillory for their opponents and also the angry villagers to throw rotten cabbages at. David Tombe (talk) 12:41, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Beeblebrox: Actually, I wasn't thinking about you in these remarks about "hot-heads" (I won't trouble to list who I was thinking about). I am very unsure why you have elected the role of taking out the garbage here; you seem to have little interest in contributing to this topic, so I guess it's "general principles" or "the good of WP", or something. However, the parameters demarcating a "reasonable discussion" are pretty hard to pin down. They depend upon personalities, temperature of the debate, subtlety of the topic, and many factors other than what might seem sensible for a simple exchange of opinion about sources.


 * Your walled garden reference is a misuse of the terminology, but you seem to feel left out of the Talk page because you can't grasp what is going on there. That is not an issue, really, because you can start up a discussion of your own on any topic you wish without any requirement that other issues be settled before you join in. Brews ohare (talk) 16:48, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Support --FyzixFighter (talk) 19:20, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Support as above, I would support a block for Tombe, and issues he has can be worked out on his talk page and let other talk pages have a rest. Darrenhusted (talk) 23:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I notice FyzixFighter and Darrenhusted proffer no real reasons for their support decision, not a very good sign. Nor do they take issue with the general guidelines suggested by those opposed to the motion. As noted by Ned Scott "no actual "rules" are being broken here, no evidence of edit warring has been shown, just a bunch of editors who have a lot of disagreements and arguments on the talk page." As Collect has noted: "use of a block for a content dispute on a talk page is not a good idea". Brews ohare (talk) 03:17, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Throughout all of this, including when I first became aware of all this a year ago, I was struck by how the two of you seem so smart about physics but so clueless about what is wrong with that talk page. That both of you, even now, simply say it is just a normal talk page conversation boggles the mind. I haven't even tried to grasp what you two are arguing about, to be honest. I, like most other users, have no interest in getting involved in an extremely protracted debate spanning 8 extremely long talk pages. That is what creates the "chilling effect" that leads to users shaking their heads and giving up on editing such an article. It was mentioned up the page that the last time this came to ANI, you guys agreed to take this off-wiki and argue elsewhere. So, in effect, by breaking that pledge, you have "broken a rule." And I might add you seem to be ignoring my point that you are discussing the science itself as opposed to reporting on what is in the sources. Instead of responding to that point, you have chosen instead to repeatedly suggest that everyone else lacks the intelligence and/or knowledge of physics to dare to criticize you. If you two would simply agree, and actually stick to it this time, that this conversation does not belong on Wikipedia, we could put this to bed, but I'm not such an optimist that I actually expect you to do that, that's why we're talking blocks and topic bans here. I may not be Brian Greene, but I can figure out why a conversation like this is not helpful to Wikipedia without a degree from Oxford. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you are honest enough to say you haven't even tried to follow what is happening. Your view of these matters is not factual. Brews ohare (talk) 04:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You want a reason, here's a reason, you both give me a headache. You both fail to grasp what this whole site is about. For a start Tombe starts telling people that no one but him and you have physics backgrounds, I'm sorry but you don't know me, you have no idea what background I do or do not have. But io can tell you this with certainty David Tombe has no sense of perspective, he has 3,321 edits in under a year and yet only 22% are article edits, with 58% being talk edits. He talks about his edits three times as much (rounding up and down) as he actually edits. He has had four ANI threads, and has twice ranted on Jimbo's page about FyzixFighter (who has been here for 3 years and has a 60/20 main space edit/talk %). Even if he didn't spend all day creating drama he is not editing much outside of one page (in the last 1000 edits). The only reason I even started looking at him was because of his behaviour. Whether or not I understand physics has nothing to do with this, because this is not about physics. It's about the fact that David Tombe cannot grasp that he is harming this site by continuing to make edits, and then spending days complaining to everyone when they are reverted because on Wikipedia the phrase "I am cleverer than you" is not justification for bad editing. In summation, not about physics, is about both of you not seeing the wood for the trees. Darrenhusted (talk) 05:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The above is why we don't taunt people with "give me one good reason...", because you'll be given one, with the assistance of a hammer-drill. ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 10:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The tenor of Darrenhusted's remarks speaks for their "reasonableness". It is odd that BWilkins interprets a request for a reason as a taunt. Brews ohare (talk) 13:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * After the absolute waste of space that this ANI entry has, the waste of editors time, the more-than-numerous reasons already given, for anyone to angrily say "give me one good reason..." is like asking your mother-in-law to give "one good reason" that you're not good enough for her little girl: we all know she'll go on for hours, and that's just what happened. Not sure what your definition of "taunt" is.  ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 20:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think David knows just enough physics to be dangerous, and we know he has at least one physics book (an old edition of Goldstein's Classical Mechanics), and that he promotes radical and revisionary physics off-wiki. So it's "about physics" at some level, but he doesn't get that wikipedia needs to be more conservative about how we portray things relative to sources, unlike his off-wiki domains where he can freely preach his version.  Brews knows more physics, and has more books, and is not usually pitching a radical POV, but he does get stuck on idiosyncratic POVs unsupported by sources at times, and it is very frustrating to try to work on an article when he's on one of those tears.  David eggs him on, and he eats that up, which I think is why he doesn't want David blocked, in spite of all the harm he does.  If you want to see Brews in typical form, look at Wavelength and its talk page from June 10 to July 10.  Srleffler and I and sometimes others had to fight like hell to hold back his nonsense; he got blocked at one point, resigned from the article at least twice, but is still at it (but more reasonably in the last week or so).  If you look at his contribs, you can see that he focuses on one article at time, doing typically 30 to 100 edits in a day with no other editor having a chance to comment until he has completely bloated the article.  It doesn't always provoke an edit war, but when it does, he digs in and keeps adding more and more complex stuff to overwhelm others.  He likes to bury his concepts in mathematical language, which he claims is precise and doesn't need to be sourced, but which he actually misuses to make faulty conclusions.  It's really sad to watch, and really hard to fight.  I think he's a lot like David, basically a big baby about not getting his way, rather than seeking a way to collaborate, listen to constructive feedback, and form a consensus.  I can't recall a time when another editor has supported him in an argument (though he did recently thank Lou Scheffer for coming up with a good alternative at Speed of light; I don't think Lou meant to be taking his side, but tried to acknowledge a sensible middle ground; this is another article where Brews has been a consistent complicator, and Martin Hogbin has been in the role of beating him back (I don't always agree with Martin, either, but this is another example of the horrible dynamic that ensues in most articles that Brews takes on).  Brews is proud of his massive amounts of contributions to wikipedia, but I'm not so sure it's a net win, in terms of how hard he makes it to get articles right and sourced and not overly complex. Dicklyon (talk) 06:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there's Dicklyon's side of this. It's not my view. The history of the Wavelength page shows Dicklyon adopting a stance, blanket deleting entire sourced subsections without suggestions for modification, refusing to entertain any opposing view no matter how sourced, eventually relaxing his stance as he comes to understand the subject, and eventually agreeing to an emasculated statement of the original suggestions. Along the way he blanket deletes with cryptic, often abusive remarks, makes few if any constructive suggestions for modification, and instead makes statements tantamount to: 'This is the way it is, I said so.' And, naturally, he is an angel, and I don't play nice because my entries are too explanatory or too digressive (in his view). The history of Centrifugal force (rotating reference frame) shows Dicklyon entering the discussion with no clue about what is happening in planetary motion, being educated by Brews_ohare and D Tombe (which discussion is now held against them as a wasted use of the Talk page), and finally becoming (in his view) a savant with amazing insight. However, he still "forgets" the Lagrangian version of centrifugal force, a major sub-section of Centrifugal force and argues against the inclusion of the important (very well sourced) subsection describing the relation between centrifugal force and the notion of absolute rotation (based upon his own sensibilities, nothing more). Brews ohare (talk) 13:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

This circus was convened by editor Beeblebrox, ostensibly to discuss something benign like probation for the centrifugal force talk page, whatever that is supposed to mean. It is now rapidly sliding down the path towards becoming a warrant for crucifixion. Try to keep the discussions to the original point. Has there been too much talking going on at the centrifugal force talk page? If the answer is 'yes', then I'm sure that all the editors involved will bear that fact in mind and try to shorten their edits on that page. David Tombe (talk) 12:16, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose, this would sent a very bad precedent that would likely affect other articles. The way to deal with problematic editors is using the basic wiki laws like the 3RR violations mediation in case of edit warring. I explained above why discussing the actual physics is so important. Laclk of discussions led to severely flawed articles. Most people here do not know about that because it never led to conflict between editors. Only foccusing on conflicts between editors and taking measures to deal with that may adversely affect the way other articles are edited. Count Iblis (talk) 13:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Let someone else edit it a while
It seems to me that there must be other people out there with the knowledge/expertise to write on this subject. Why don't the main contributors to the article agree to refrain from editing the article and talk page for, say, two weeks in order to let others have a chance at it? Mangoe (talk) 17:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree. The discussion is most certainly circular; the arguments seem to involve different frames of reference and a debate over which frame is correct/better (neither, according to Einstein!)  An outside editor (willing to spend a significant chunk of time churning through sources and assembling a fair representation of both sides) would do will for the page.  I also have to vote against the aforementioned bans.  I fail to see where any one editor has been more uncivil than any others.  Ban them all or ban none, but not some.  Perhaps warnings all around? Clayt85 (talk) 18:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd vote for this suggestion provided all participants e.g. including Martin Hogbin, Dicklyon, Wolfkeeper, FyzixFighter, etc. agree as well. Inasmuch as the instigator of this brawl, Beeblebrox, has never actually indicated any interest in contributing to the page, nor have Darrenhusted & BWilkins, I don't expect much will happen during the hiatus. However, it would be great if revisions were (i) explained on the Talk page, (ii) sourced and (iii) balanced. Brews ohare (talk) 18:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm amenable to this, but I wouldn't include Martin in the list of participants that should take a hiatus from editing the article and talk page. He's only recently started to participate on the talk page, and I would like to see what he could do while we take a break. I'd also highly encourage that those like Iblis and CMD who think that just talking about the physics and going through the derivation will convince David of the errors of his ways and stop his fringe POV pushing to go ahead and try. It's easy enough to say, but doing it is another matter entirely. Others before you have tried to no avail, but maybe you'll succeed where they have failed. However, Brews, please don't discount the opinion of others like Darrenhusted and BWilkins just because they haven't participated on the article page. As I understand it, their opinions are based on David's action (failure to AGF and incivility) in general across multiple talk pages. --FyzixFighter (talk) 19:17, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And I thought the point was that uninvolved editors gave their opinion. More to the point do you think that either the actions of you (ohare) or Tombe would encourage anyone to even try to edit any page that either of you have been near given the amount of drama you attract. What would happen if I made an edit at centrifugal force? Could I expect 4 ANI threads and two complaints to Jimbo as FF has been subjected to? At this point I would only try to contribute if I knew you were both banned from those pages. Darrenhusted (talk) 00:38, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Move to close/Summary

 * This is turning into the same thing as the talk page we're commenting on, a very verbose debate in which nothing is settled. It would be good if a couple of admins came forward and stated if they felt it warranted admin action or not. Since this has gone into WP:TLDR territory, I will try to summarize the core points here:
 * David Tombe and Brews ohare have had an extremely protracted debate for over a year on the centrifugal force talk page
 * This debate does not seem limited to discussion of the article but rather is a debate about the science itself and therefore an inappropriate use of an article talk page
 * Previous attempts to resolve this, including reports at WP:WQA, several WP:RFCs, and a previous report here have failed to resolve the issue
 * David and Brews seem to feel that if you are not a physicist you do not have the right to comment on their contributions, and are unwilling to acknowledge that this is anything other than a normal talk page conversation
 * There was a consensus to ban or block David Tombe last year for these exact same reasons, but an admin chose to unblock him and apparently did not follow up and make sure this behavior did not recur.
 * The above suggestion that they voluntarily remove themselves for two weeks will not solve the underlying problem of an off-topic debate beyond the usual scope of article talk pages
 * For these reasons I believe some sort of administrative action is warranted, either in the form of a topic ban, blocking, or article probation Beeblebrox (talk) 20:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I explained in detail in the extended discussion section, why the actions suggested by Beeblebrox would be a bad thing. One has to take into account that on this noticeboard page we only hear about disputes between editors. The fact that the way Brews edits articles has been very successfully used by me and others in correcting long standing and horrible errors without causing an disputes is a hard undeniable fact.

Now, it can be the case that an editor is talking too much on the talk page. But then it is up to the other editors to deal with that ocnstructively. Instead of moaning like Beeblebrox is doing here, one has to reach a conclusion on the talk page. If one editor is behaving in an obstructive way, then that canot prevent a consension being reached by all the pother editors. So, ultimately one can always proceed without that problem editor and if that problem editor still disrupts the article, you can come back here and raise more clear cut violations like 3RR etc.

If we take a shortcut by limiting Brews or David from discussing the physics/math on the talk page, then I see potential problems with other articles. We have had cases where extensive discussions based on physics were really necessary to settle disputes. In some cases there was one editor who was using sources in a misleading way and he was wikilawering. Now, such an editor could in the future come here and accuse the experts of talking too much physics and math. Count Iblis (talk) 21:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Summary is inaccurate
 * David Tombe and Brews ohare "debate":
 * Long ago considerable debate occurred over the nature of centrifugal force. That involved many editors, and was not strictly a Brews-Tombe back-and-forth. It was a well intentioned effort to reconcile Tombe's notions with those in the article by looking at several examples, some of which ultimately were added to the article.. That era has passed. Any recent Brews_ohare - Tombe exchanges have been short, constructive and related to content.
 * This debate's subject.
 * I'd say present debate is focused upon the content of the article, and discussion has that objective in mind.
 * David and Brews seem to feel that if you are not a physicist you do not have the right to comment.
 * A complete misunderstanding bordering upon deliberate distortion.
 * There was a consensus to ban or block David Tombe;
 * A true statement, the ban served its purpose, which was to control name-calling and paranoia (not all on Tombe's side, I'd add). No recurrence of this behavior on Tombe's part.
 * The above suggestion that they voluntarily remove themselves for two weeks will not prevent off-topic debate beyond the usual scope of article talk pages;
 * What is this about - preventing talk on editor talk pages? Preventing use of the article talk page indefinitely?


 * Considering that a large proportion of the figures and text in Centrifugal force Centrifugal force (rotating reference frame) and Reactive centrifugal force originated with Brews-ohare, and that Beeblebrox has never made an attempt to add content or to engage in discussion on these pages, his crusade here is peculiar. He is interested in influencing decision by rhetoric, not by principle. He has no direct experience with any of the editors he attacks anywhere that I know about, never mind on Centrifugal force. What are the motivations and the credentials of Beeblebrox anyway? Brews ohare (talk) 00:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You wonder why he hasn't tried to edit the pages given what has happened in this ANI thread alone. To any admin out there please put a lid on this. Darrenhusted (talk) 00:40, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Beeblebrox and Darrenhusted have made no attempt whatsoever. Don't tell me you are too bashful to even show up on the Talk page. It has not intimidated a lot of other editors: Rracecarr, Wolfkeeper, The Anome, PeR, FyzixFighter, Martin Hogbin, Henning Makholm, Dicklyon, Dougweller, Harald88, Fugal  etc. etc.Brews ohare (talk) 00:46, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Brews, whether the editors commenting here have tried to get involved in the debate on the article talk page or not is irrelevant. This is a report at ANI not an RFC. A report here asks uninvolved editors to look at the behavior of the editor(s) in question and give opinions based on the agreed upon standards of the Wiki community. It is not meant to get them involved in the actual debate on the talk page (that would be what an RFC or mediation is for), although it may lead to that. Stop trying to marginalize the comments of others by using standards that don't apply. --FyzixFighter (talk) 13:35, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Whatever guys. Must you resort to this sort of base tactics every time, questioning the intelligence and motivations of persons you don't agree with. Here's what you just don't seem to want to understand: it is absolutely not required that an editor be an expert on a subject before contributing to an article or a talk page conversation, so my credentials, and yours, are not really relevant. You both keep harping on the point that I have not participated in your debate, as if that makes any comment from me invalid. I would say it is exactly the opposite. Clearly, I don't have an opinion in your actual dispute and could care less which of you is right or wrong, meaning that it is easier for me to see this from an impartial outsider's perspective. Don't try to turn this around and make it about me, because it isn't, I'm hardly the only one who sees a problem here. Beeblebrox (talk) 05:22, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No one is preventing you from participating editing the article or its talk page. So, what is exactly the problem? Just that there are a lot of discussions on the talk page as you wrote in the OP? While I agree that David may talk a bit too much, that alone cannot be a good ground for any action to be taken.


 * Many disputes on article contents have been settled by lengthy discussions witout escalating to major conflicts, so on this page you'll find no trace of such disputes. That happens far often than unnecessary discusions that go on for too long. But a lay person cannot be expected to see the difference. So, if David and Brews were sanctioned for talking too much then I could also be sanctioned for talking too much on thermodynamics talk page articles. You can easily imagine some editor with some POV that is based on a misunderstanding of a source to come along and the only way that can be refuted is by a lengthy argument, because you can't always refute a quote out of context by a quote that counters that directly. Count Iblis (talk) 13:33, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Count Iblis, with regards to David Tombe the problem goes far beyond just talking too much on the talk page. What is your opinion of the behavior described in the WQA report? Is such persistent behavior acceptable or not, and if not what is the next recourse in getting David to change such behavior? --FyzixFighter (talk) 13:45, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That's a far better way to address a problem. I.e. instead of complaining about very lengthy talk page debates, you cite specific incidences of verbal abuse. Sanctioning an editor based on that sounds legitimate to me in principle (I haven't look at all the instances of alleged abuse yet). Beeblebrox treats Bews and David in the same way based on their lengthy talk page discussions. I.m.o., that's wrong.Count Iblis (talk) 13:59, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

As is typical with Wikipedia, you fellows are trying to kill the wrong people. This entire problem is due to FyzixFighter who intervened after much of the long discussion between Brews and Tombe was worked out. FyzxFighter then swooped in and deleted Tombe's edits, which were at the final stage, and wiped out all of the progress. Hence I am a bit surprised that you are not discussing a ban on FyzixFighter, as he is obviously the source of the current problem. Now we have Mr Beeblebrox stepping in to make things worse. He is trying to establsh rules for editing physics articles when he doesn't know any physics. I will make this problem clear. The physics community has been arguing about the physics of centrifugal force for at least 200 years. Does he expect that wikipedia will produce a satisfactory article on this topic if wikipedia tries to enforce a conclusion that the physics community doesn't agree upon? I think not. The problem here is Wikipedia procedures and the way it handles disputes. The correct way is to allow both view points into the article while telling the reader there is a disute and letting him decide. Wikipedia thinks they can avoid mentioning there is a dispute and then determine which side is the correct side of the argument. Such a procedue is bound to ruffle feathers and is more than likely going to lead to wrong information in Wikipedia. Apparently, Mr Beeblebrox believe that the best solution is to choose up sides, like in a children's playground, and ostracise the bad boys from the playground. That is not a solution and will only help to keep Wikipedia's reputation for erronous information intact, and confirm why that reputation was properly earned in the first place.72.84.66.220 (talk) 12:16, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Beeblebrox, the participants on the talk page are doing just fine without your participation. You say: "Clearly, I don't have an opinion in your actual dispute and could care less which of you is right or wrong, meaning that it is easier for me to see this from an impartial outsider's perspective." You are trying to solve a problem you have "seen" as a non-participant with no interest, assessed the "problem" based upon a partial understanding of what the back-and-forth is about (taking it as fruitless debate even when it is simply the evolution of thought), and interpreted the actions of other editors with no experience of your own in dealing with the participants, nor understanding of the structure of the discussion, never mind any other qualification. Forget it. Brews ohare (talk) 16:55, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, this isn't about me. I merely brought what I perceived as a problem to the communities attention. I think anyone can see from this thread that you have a tendency to go on and on and on and get in last word contests. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:01, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry sir but it is exactly about you. Your inability to understand the issues has resulted in a demand to kill two editors. That is simply wrong, and if you dont see that, you don't belong here in my opinion. This latest dispute was caused by FyzixFighter. Why didn't you make a move to block him? That would be a more productive move from my observations regarding the problems of trying to edit wikipedia articles. Mr FyzixFighter is always intervening when a compromise has been reached destroying the efforts of Mr Tombe to work out a solution. This is because Mr FyzixFighter doesn't know anything about physics and never will. He is just trying to cause problems for MR Tombe who does know physics. I don't think you understand the problems and simply want to kill the participants efforts because you don't understand them or physics.71.251.188.202 (talk) 21:47, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Welcome to the incident noticeboard. This page is for reporting and discussing incidents on the English Wikipedia that require the intervention of administrators. Any user of Wikipedia may post here. Please include diffs to help us find the problem you are reporting. As a courtesy, you must inform other users if they are the subject of a discussion.

Frivolous complaints and unsubstantiated requests for administrator intervention do not belong here. Please do not clutter this page with accusations or side-discussions within a discussion. Before posting a grievance about a user here, it is advised that you discuss the issue with them on their user talk page. Count Iblis (talk) 21:52, 18 July 2009 (UTC) FyzixFighter 3RR: FyzixFighter went over 3RR on exactly the same day as Tombe, by the same amount, at almost exactly the same time, by the same iffy 'last edit of the day + the next day's three edits' method of counting. Like I care. What I do care about, though, is Fyz reporting it to Tombe on the talk page, and later here, in the collapsed "Extended content" section, when he was guilty of the same thing himself. My guess is he just didn't notice he had done it himself, the alternative is less likely.
 * Revision as of 22:46, 10 July 2009
 * Revision as of 03:18, 11 July 2009
 * Revision as of 13:20, 11 July 2009
 * Revision as of 20:53, 11 July 2009 Anarchangel (talk) 10:32, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Merging multiple usernames
I’ve registered a few usernames but wasn’t happy with them until my present username. I’ve made a number edits under each username, is it possible to merge them together? HLE (talk) 18:47, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * No, sorry. The software does not allow merging. You should iscontinue using those usernames and can link them from your userpage so others can review the edits easily. Regards  So Why  18:55, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Developers have the capacity to do this, and used to (occasionally) using the mechanism at Changing attribution for an edit. But as the site grew, and under a torrent of un-provable and often trivial requests, they gradually quit doing it, and it hasn't been done (to my knowledge) for years. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:35, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As the others have said, it's not really done any more. If you're concerned about attribution, you could get all the other usernames changed to some derivative of your preferred name (e.g. HLE 1, HLE 2, etc.). Stifle (talk) 20:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your replies. It would have been good they were merged but since its not possible I think I'll take Stifle's suggestion and change the other usernames to similar derivatives. -- HLE (talk) 10:04, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Reynoboy
Over the past couple of weeks, has been repeatedly adding speculative or blatantly false information to the topic area I primarily work in. This has included creating the (deleted) articles and, for which I gave him a stern warning on his talk page. A few days ago, he changed the content of another article to include speculative content. I clarified my warning to him on his talk page. He recently repeated this edit. In the past five months of his registering, I cannot find any useful constructive edits from this user, and he does not seem to heed warnings or any messages left on his talk page. I know he is making these edits in good faith, but he is harming the project more than helping it.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 00:56, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * For the sake of keeping this UW friendly, 4im'd him. <font face="Trebuchet MS">— <font color="#5A3696">neuro <font color="#5A3696">(talk) 09:52, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Andy Murray again
reported by Milo.

Dlabtot appears to be engaged in edit warring against consensus, a combination WP:EW and WP:CONSENSUS violation. He will argue that he just made one edit: (diff). But I argue that one edit is a WP:GAME intended to POV-trump a settled content dispute. (See WP:EW.)

The key facts are:
 * 1) User ignored my edit summary providing the location of the concluded consensus discussion, (diff)
 * 2) user provided no exceptional revert reason in his edit summary, and
 * 3) user posted nothing to the talk page.

This user is a hardened veteran of talk, policy, and notice venues, with no newbie excuse for his behavior. He has previously been blocked for edit warring.

Andy Murray was hit by two WT:EL vigilantes. The first one, as noted in my edit summary, was probably confused by multiple venues, partly created by a now-blocked sock, and partly created by the user named in section WP:ANI above. That user seems to have accepted consensus and moved on.

The reported user has not. I request this situation be dealt with appropriately, to include restoring the consensus-decided edit. Milo 06:39, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It is obvious that fan sites are not acceptable per WP:EL and every forum you have shopped your concern to has told you this. I don't see a consensus for the inclusion of such links at WT:EL or at the talk page of the article in question. Furthermore I don't see what action is required by administrators in handling this situation.  Them From  Space  06:44, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You seem to be confusing me with another editor. Milo 06:59, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Milo, you might want to check your post for accuracy. You claim Dlabtot "posted nothing to the talk page". I see him responding to an RfC, addressing the question, and redirecting you to WP:EL. That's 3 posts on the talk page, all addressing the issue in question. I'll assume you simply forgot about these posts when drafting your inflammatory accusation above. An alternate summary might be this: a bunch of uninvolved editors responded to an RfC (including Dlabtot); you didn't like their responses; so you've alternately reported them to AN/I or out-and-out threatened them with malicious litigation for their troubles. Of course, it could be argued that I'm not a neutral party, since you applied the same sort of approach in your interactions with me. So it's not like I'm going to take action here - previous experience prejudices me - but if anyone's behavior warrants administrative attention in this regard, it's Milo's. MastCell Talk 07:00, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I've never seen an ANI closed by refusing to answer a consensus violation as being a content issue. But that's the way it is.

However, closing it without allowing an answer to a smear of the poster is another matter. Here is the post I was trying to make during the edit conflict: ... 3. user posted nothing to the talk page [about his revert. He had previously participated in a concluded RfC discussion, where he read that the consensus was described in a previous section. The consensus discussion: Talk:Andy Murray ]. ...
 * There's a limit to how much history one can post. The RfC was concluded, but at your implied insistence that it matters, I've added that. As you've linked, Dlabtot already knew that the edit had consensus. Makes it worse for him, I'd say.
 * The user I warned at the RfC, fooled two editors into answering the wrong question at the RfC, possibly by carelessness rather than malice. But it was still damaging to consensus, and that justifies the warning that if continued, they would face "some kind of WP process, such as RfC/U or ANI". That warning looks completely by the book to me.
 * Yes, you're completely non-neutral. I'll refrain from likewise posting your egregious violation of consensus at BOB – unbecoming of an admin, to say the least. I invite a full review of your actions in the appropriate forum, but this isn't it. I suppose you're likely to blow smoke like this every time I post about another issue, but that's just an unfortunate part of the ANI reporting job.
 * Please move along and let consensus prevail for an edit that I did not vote on either way at the consensus discussion: Talk:Andy Murray. Milo 08:24, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Lg16spears continuing disruption
Lg16spears is one again running around and randomly adding Category:Gun fu films films to dozens of categories. He has already done this numerous times unver various IPs while both blocked and not blocked, and has repeatedly been asked to stop as the categories are randomly applied to films that are clearly not "Gun fu" works. He was also blocked under various IPs as it is clear he is doing these edits with some sort of unauthorized bot or mass editing mechanism due the sheer number he's able to do at once (anywhere from 5-10 pages hit a minute) and always the same group of articles (seems to be going straight through every link in Gun fu). See also Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009_June_13 (where issue was discussed during category discussion) and User talk:69.124.8.165 where it was noted he was running an unauthorized block under an IP. It would likely take a check user to refind all of those IPs he used, and I suspect if done, one would find he evaded the block he was placed under on June 5 for doing the same inappropriate category additions. All attempts to talk to him on both this issue and other disruptive editing he has done is ignored, with him just clearing his talk page without response. -- Collectonian  (talk · contribs) 07:16, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Celebration1981 at History of Transylvania
I need an advice, please. Is it me paranoid or there is something to this?

In History of Transylvania, I added a sentence (with its reference). 10 hours later I was revered. After another editor restored my insertion, it was partly reverted again. I allowed myself to revert it because we should have either a correct citation, or no sentence at all.

Following that, in Talk:History of Transylvania, I explained my last edit (the revert). To this I got an answer, and then I replied. Up to here, everything is content related. Unfortunately, the second answer I got after this contains such words: "Medieval Orthodox World was very very shocking backward and poor civilization." The content discussion has nothing to do with medieval orthodox world. We were talking about including or not my citation that mentioned that in ca. 1600, Romanians amounted to about 60% of the population of Transylvania. Romanians are Orthodox (with a Greek-Catholic minority), while the other ethnic groups in Transylavania (Hungarians and Germans) are Catholic and Protestant. Perhaps, then I should have replied that we shouldn't mix religion, as it is not related to the issue. Unfortuanately, seeing the connection Orthodox=Romanian, and obviously disagreeing with the above statement, I replied in a manner that did not help calm my discussion partner's spirit. I said: "I am reading this as a personal attack. Please, re f tract it, or our discussion here is over." At least I hoped I would here something "you misunderstood, this was not a personal attack". Unfortunately, I got this: "MAny times, the mimic pipque is just a form (and reason) for escape from the defeat." and "You call it anti-Orthodox or whatever anti***** etc... If something is unflattering for you. It's childish. As I said, It is not superiority feeling. The cultural/technologian economic societal differences between Orthodox Europe and Western cultured countries in Europe are similar to the differences between latino-Americaan South and English Speaking (USA Caanada) parts of the American Continent. But Average American people are open minded and they don't despise/contemn for bacwardness the Latino-Americans."

I am in a difficulty to keep this dialog. Please, advise.


 * P.S. I am expected to explain why the statements below are incorrect. But it is very difficult to think what arguments should I use with an editor that has just said the above.
 * "The Orthodox church wanted to preserve its exclusivity in all sphere of cultural and intellectual life. Therefore secular intellectuals did not existed in orthodox world until the 18th century (in Russian Empire) and until the 19th century in Balkanian territories."
 * They did exist since 1630s.
 * "There are 4 main historic development levels for every counry. 1. nomad half-nomad (sepherd the majority) 2. feudal- (agricultural) 3.industrial 4.post-industrial. All Western-Christian states arrived to the 2. development level (feudal-agricultural) from year 600 to 1000AD. In Balkanian Orthodox countries (except Greeks) most people lived pastoral sepherd lifestyle in the balkanian mountains until the 14th (!!!) century. In romanian territories the half-nomad sepherd lifestyle remained more important than (the more civilized) agricultural lifestyle until the the 16th century."
 * There were also sedentary populations that were not nomad. Also it is very difficult to explain how a people has managed to create two independent principalities in 14th century and for over a 100 years successfully defend against Ottoman Armies of up to 150,000 strong, while apparently "half-nomad sepherd lifestyle remained more important than (the more civilized) agricultural lifestyle until the the 16th century".
 * "Have you ever read books about the history and developments of fine arts and architecture? Don't forget that the successor of the true Byzantine fine arts and architecture is the Middle-Eastern Islamic World. But the motive of onion-dome appeared foremost in Islamic word. In the Orthodox Balkan, average people wore Kaftans (clothes from Islamic world) and primitive sandals (instead of shoes) until the 1860's."
 * no comment. IMHO, this borders an attack on one's ethnic group.
 * "Read about: Orthodoxy, Autocracy, and Nationality"
 * It's about Tsarist autocracy, not about every Orthodox nation. I have somehow to explain that there were also other Orthodox countries except the 19th century Russian Empire.
 * "There is a well known historical reason for this. Byzantium was always in close contact with the absolutism of the Eastern peoples, the ideas of despotism derived from there."
 * no comment
 * "it produced the state-church in all Orthodox countries, executing the power of government administration and supervision, almost as an organ of police. In such a political system, the clergy cannot progress and remains on a low level, the state does not develop either, life becomes rigid. (...The history of the Byzantine empire is a monotonous story of the intrigues of priests, eunuchs, and women, of poisonings, of conspiracies, of uniform ingratitude. similar to an Asian country) This is the cause of the amazing primitiveness one notices when crossing the border of Orthodoxia."
 * It is always very hard to justify you are not "primitive"...
 * "In the middle of the Twentieth Century, led by Bolshevik Russia, Slav nationalism conquered Central Europe, but that was all it has achieved: it could not give more than what is its essence: hardly anything more than Byzantinism manifested as Bolshevism."
 * I sincerely believe there was much more to Bolshevism than a manifestation of Byzantine tradition. It's like saying Fascism is a manifestation of Protestantism. Try to explain this logic is not true...
 * "Romanian as a country name or name for an ethnic group is young. It was born just in the modern period."
 * The word Romania indeed was coined in 19th century, but Romanians called themselves "români" since they are known. Due to geography, Romanians did not have a single country until 19th-20th century, but 3 principalities: Wallachia, Moldavia, and Transylvania. In the former two they were both the nobility and the peasants, in the latter they were the peasants, while the nobles spoke Hungarian.

Dc76\talk 08:02, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

wikistalking/general disruption
seems to have picked up a stalker - in their first identity of, they left this message suggesting they were and then went about reverting David's edits to articles. Those were quickly reverted and the account blocked, they have now popped up again as (Loki is of course an Asgardian), after resorting their original message to David and are now reverting David's edits and it now seems mine. Beyond blocking the editor, can some admins watchlist David's talkpage and watch out for (what sure to come) the next identity and try and nip them in the bud. --Cameron Scott (talk) 08:18, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Robertredfern
, a.k.a. Robert Redfern, has done nothing in his entire time on Wikipedia but try to promote the use of Serratiopeptidase. He has been blocked several times for his disruptive behaviour.

He has resumed this behaviour, and I would ask he now be community banned, as he's wasting a lot of time on patently unusable material.

For instance, his latest replace-entire-article-with-whatever-the-hell-he-wants contains the following:

The following is an opinion by an private organization mainly funded by one or more of the Merk Drug Companies. Merk companies have along history of illegal activities and is continually being fined by authorities throughout the world for funding misleading publictions and. One of the Merk companies allegedly carried on marketing Vioxx in spite of the reports of thousands of deaths and paid over $58billion dollars in damages connected with this. This and more can be found by searching Merk in WikipediA and on the web

Likewise, here's what he thinks is an appropriate edit to Bandolier (journal), as it published a study on Serratiopeptidase he dislikes. [His changes are marked in bold]

Bandolier claims it is an independent online electronic journal about evidence-based healthcare, written by Oxford University scientists. It would be accurate to say it is no friend of Natural Health. It was started in 1994 and the National Health Service paid for its distribution to all doctors in the UK until 2002. It is beleived the main support comes from drug companies and those organisations tied closey with the drug inductry. This explains its bias towards drugs and away from Natural health. An example of bias is that is does not appear critizise drugs, even when those drugs are shown to be dangerous and mostly ineffective eg Viiox. Publication of the printed version ceased in 2007 and new material is now published entirely electronically. The NHS Executive (NHSE) and National electronic Library for Health (NeLH) continue with some support for the electronic site.

I don't think he has a single edit that isn't either blatant attack pieces or blatant promotion. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 13:10, 19 July 2009 (UTC)