Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive610

The Monkees
Would someone please go over to The Monkees and work with the guy there that's just made me too pissed off to assume good faith? (I really don't like being called a Nazi.) --jpgordon:==( o ) 03:54, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Has the user been informed yet? NotAnonymous0 did I err?|Contribs 04:03, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've tried to leave a nice, friendly message on his user talk page. Let's see how he reacts. –MuZemike 04:12, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I must be blind, but where's the personal attack you refer to? --SGGH ping! 14:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't see any 'nazi' attack either (although it might be hidden in the history). I removed his email from the page. Phrases like: "R u serious here ? LOL ...I said SAME thing, the orig. was awkward & 'illogical' Captain' ...in fact there was a sentence fragment,, my edit there was merely grammar. 'an agreement must be breached, c'mon take INtro to LAw 101 bro Luv ya"
 * seem to suggest this editor needs a little attention though. PanydThe muffin is not subtle 15:21, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The "nazi" comment is here. --jpgordon:==( o ) 15:54, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The nature of that guy's updates remind me of Hanlon's razor, and that along with subsequent attempts to correct his changes, lead me to think it would be best to revert the article (again) to where it was before that "bro" got started with it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:04, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, now he's starting to do the same crap on other Monkees-related articles. Could someone he hasn't infuriated please try to straighten him out? --jpgordon:==( o ) 15:16, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Misuse of ROLLBACK tool
collapse top|Rollback has been removed. Let's move on. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:02, 24 April 2010 (UTC)}} Another admin please remove WP:ROLLBACK privileges from this user now. Thank you for your time. -- Cirt (talk) 22:19, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sequence of events
 * 1) 21:56, 23 April 2010 = misuse of WP:ROLLBACK tool, to rollback edits that were good faith and not vandalism.
 * 2) 22:10, 23 April 2010 = I post to the talk page about this issue.
 * 3) 22:13, 23 April 2010 = My post to the talk page is reverted, again, misuse of the WP:ROLLBACK tool, to rollback edits that are not vandalism.
 * Removed., , , and  are not acceptable uses of rollback, nor are the two edits Cirt listed above. Tim Song (talk) 22:36, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You can place the roll back where the sun don't shine. However, do learn some facts about what is correct use and what is not, prompt reversion of erronious fact is always essential.  Giano   22:47, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that editors can use rollback on their talk page for whatever reason. No comment on the other ones. Pcap ping  22:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * None of the edits were to the user's user talk page. -- Cirt (talk) 22:38, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Good point, I didn't read that close enough. Removing other editors' comments from an article talk page is beyond the pale per WP:TALK (except in very specific circumstances), so I was surprised/confused that all you asked for was a removal of rollback... Pcap ping  22:41, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * In the spirit of examining all parties, I think it may be helpful to look at Featured article review/John Vanbrugh/archive1 towards an understanding of what led to the situation. Cirt's open assumption of bad faith against DionysosProteus, for no apparent reason, seems quite puzzling and may provide a key to Giano's strange behaviour. Hans Adler 22:39, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I looked there, and I fail to see the connection, but I'm kinda slow at this hour. Maybe you care to enlighten us? Pcap ping  22:44, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If I fully understood what's going on I would have explained it, but I am not part of the featured article crowd. What I can see is that (1) one of Bishonen's featured articles is under review at a time when she is ill and has basically stopped editing more than two weeks ago, (2) Cirt attacked an editor there for comparing the article to the written FA standards rather than the unwritten current practices of the FA crowd (note the edit summary of this edit), (3) Cirt then proceeded to leave some obviously unjustified fact tags along with some justifiable "page number needed" tags on the article, and (4) most recently Cirt left some criticism on the article talk page that looks pedantic to me.
 * Given the drama around Blenheim Castle, where some serious Giano-baiting went on, and the fact that Vanbrugh was the architect of Blenheim Castle, all of this looks suspiciously like part of a concealed war. Hans Adler 23:02, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Huh, I had never even heard of Blenheim Castle. Came by the John Vanbrugh page from WP:FAR, after previously having nominated a different article myself for review at FAR. -- Cirt (talk) 23:06, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * @User:Pohta ce-am pohtit Yes, removal of rollback is certainly appropriate, and you are right that more action would also be appropriate, considering the removal of comments from an article talk page. -- Cirt (talk) 22:46, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Instead of this shit, could you not have gone and either asked someone to reference the article, or do the bloody work yourself. More time wasted, more baiting of Giano, more turning WP into a sewer where good editors are continually being swept away under a torrent of pedantic shit. Nick (talk) 23:15, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The foul language is not necessary. I would have liked to have helped, but did not have access to the sources. -- Cirt (talk) 23:16, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Cirt is trolling - nothing more and nothing less. We all know that apart from the little Admin, Tim Song, who is obviousy completley ignorant of the history here.  Giano   22:49, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That sort of response does little to reassure anyone here. Explaining those diffs in a neutral tone would do a lot more to help your case. Shadowjams (talk) 22:59, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A case? I could not care less what some little admin does with rollback. It is for him to justify his ignorance and stupidity - not me.  Giano   23:31, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * See my response to Pcap above. Hans Adler 23:02, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone who keeps referring to people as "ignorant", "little", and "stupid", especially in response to allegations of privilege misuse in lieu of any actual defense, shouldn't be given any sort of special privileges. Without even considering the linked edits I endorse the revocation of rollback. Equazcion  ( talk ) 23:39, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. –Turian  ( talk )  23:41, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL are still policies, last I checked.   Will Beback    talk    00:12, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

The first case cirt cited is marginal; I myself have rolled back such additions while huggling simply due to the ease of hitting the "revert" button. It may not be an appropriate use of the tool, but it certainly does not warrant bit removal. The other two, however, are blatant misuses, and for that reason I support removal. Throwaway85 (talk) 23:57, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Support revoking - The response to this issue is unacceptable for someone with elevated privileges. I'm saying that without any comment on the rollbacks. Hans makes some interesting points, but it should be Giano who does that, rather than simply calling people ignorant and expecting us to sort it out ourselves. Shadowjams (talk) 02:21, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Support revoking rollback as a community sanction, which must not be undone by any admin friend of Giano's. Let us be blunt here.  When it comes to incivility, Giano is a chronic offender.  While he is not so crude as to use foul language, he belittles others on a constant basis.  It is not the result of baiting, it is what he does.  He has talents around the project which make him valuable, but I do not believe we can build a project while one editor takes it on himself to tear down his fellow builders.  I would very much support banning Giano from using any demeaning language, however cleverly dressed up, towards others, on pain of a lengthy block.  It should not be hard for him, after all, thousands keep within those bounds every day here.  However, I do not propose it.  This time.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:35, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Support I concur with what Wehwalt has said here. The project has minimal standards of behavior that need to be followed.   Will Beback    talk    06:17, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Support revoking. Rollback is a special privilege, not a right, and it's clear from the diffs in this section that Giano either doesn't understand rollback's purpose or doesn't care. Either way, he's got no business having rollback privilege. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:18, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Support - Per BaseballBugs and Wehwalt. -  NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 06:21, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You all appear to be failing to grasp something fundamental here. I am not asking for the "priviledge" of being able to rapidly vapourise rubbish to be restored. I require no Wikipedia "privilidges." It was given with no request from me and so it was taken. The grasping and grabbing of "privilieges" is a fault I leave to others. In my considerable experience, little Admins come and little Admins go, I remain constant.  Giano   07:07, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Support The above comment is enough to revoke the rights, but the culmination of everything else is extremely troubling. –Turian  ( talk )  07:18, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Rollback has been removed so any further posts will likely be about Giano and civility issues and most of us know how productive that will be. Can we please close this thread? -- Neil N   talk to me  07:20, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Discussing Giano is not productive, but, then, having Giano as a editor is not particularly productive either – one wonders about the dynamic that keeps allowing him back in – can any system which is unable to jettison such a corrosive influence truly be self-preserving?  More to the point, however, perhaps the next admin who wants to bestow some kind of boon on Giano, in the mistaken belief that he holds anything in this world to be important other than his own sad self – most assuredly including what's best for Wikipedia – might keep his words here in mind. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:27, 24 April 2010 (UTC) I withdraw my remark as uncivil. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Uncollapsing - what a lot of complete rot you talk. It really seems to disconcert a certain section of editors to learn that some pople neither want nor require priviledges. If I wrote something like that above I would be banned, when talking of dynamicS i am not protected, but it appears you are!  Giano   09:48, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

No, we shal not move on. How dare this editor above say I am worthless? We shall continue this.  Giano  09:52, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Recollapsing, there is no need to uncollapse other than to fan the flames. Move on. -  NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 09:51, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have withdrawn my remark as uncivil. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Happy launch day, Hubble!
Google is featuring the Hubble Space Telescope today - a few extra eyes on the article might not go amiss. - 2/0 (cont.) 06:51, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have seen a bit of a flurry on there. Admittedly it's only 20 or so for today but then, it's only 10:00. I've slapped a 24 hour semi-protect just to curb it and allow vandal fighters time to do other things. SGGH ping! 14:49, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

User:Nineteen Nightmares, continued incivility and personal attacks
This user seems unhappy about the arguments being presented in the deletion discussion of Valley Entertainment Monthly. The user has engaged in personal attacks and incivility. P. D. Cook Talk to me! 15:20, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The user called users "panty wastes" [sic], "wikinazis" and said some of us have "small minds"
 * The user was warned to be careful with personal attacks and incivility, but did not cease.
 * The user has also accused us of a conspiracy to delete the article in question.
 * An examination of the user's talk page history will show that many other editors tried to engage the user and help explain WP policy. The user blanked many such comments.

I am the "user" in question and I have one thing to say: if the article you were working on from day one was mercilessly attacked by a group of editors who it has been discovered regularly gangs up on other users, you would be upset, too. I was given NO CHANCE to succeed, with these -- scouring the entire article (at least four of you!) for anything wrong, the best I could do was try and answer these descrepencies rather than work on the article. And EVERYTHING was answered sufficiently. Now they are going on about notability. You could claim notability issues with half the stuff on Wiki, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a place here.

Someone said previous that I wouldn't say those things to these "editors" in person, but that is a load of horse dung. I would have A LOT more to say to these people in person and it would not be the least bit censored. In fact, I have been unusually reserved on this site because I realize we are trying to create something academic and important here and I did not come here to fight. The people complaining about me are reminded that Wikipedia is not their fiefdom. They should stop acting like it is. Nineteen Nightmares (talk) 17:04, 23 April 2010 (UTC)Nineteen Nightmares
 * The argument that "other stuff exists" is not a logical one on Wikipedia, I'm afraid. Likewise, outlining "what you would do" face to face with a user is, well, dumb. You should be careful not to mistake a group of experienced and policy/notability-knowledgeable users commenting on content for a group of conspiracy-ninjas. A group of users who say the same thing ought to show you that there are issues with the articles in question, not that they are ganging up on you. the "fiefdom" you refer to is in fact a group of well thought-out policies being utilized by experienced users who know what they are talking about. Wikipedia is not important enough to get this upset about things, and an AfD discussion is no place to get bogged down in the nitty gritty arguments. If enough experienced users say there are issues with the content, then I'm afraid it is likely that there are issues with the content. Users would be much more inclined to listen to your points if you didn't resort to these attacks. --SGGH ping! 17:13, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * My gut response is that this user has only been editing a few days, and we should cut him/her a little slack rather than running to ANI. They'll get the hang of how things work here with a bit more experience, hopefully. Equazcion  ( talk ) 17:25, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment Unfortunately you are in the minority of reasonable thinkers here, but I thank you for some semblance of sanity amongst all this nonsense. Nineteen Nightmares (talk) 19:05, 23 April 2010 (UTC)Nineteen Nightmares
 * (ec) Nineteen Nightmares has been given an extraordinary amount of tolerance over violations of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL, as well as explanations that reliable sources are necessary to verify article content. Actually, I think he will find that editors were scouring the entire article for anything right, and attempting to find sources for it. There seem to be none online, and Nineteen Nightmares has not responded to requests to provide relevant material from print sources. He has been pointed to wikipedia policy and guideline requirements, but seems unable to accept that these should apply. He said on my talk page, "I see that Modernist, you, PD Cook, and JNW have other articles you work on together, so obviously the others were "brought in" by JNW to sink it." The person who "brought me in" was Nineteen Nightmares, when I read his post on JNW's talk page (which I have watchlisted). I had no contact or request from JNW about this.  Ty  17:34, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This user's only interest seems to be in this article on Valley Entertainment Monthly. The user has been given a lot of slack, but remains unrelenting, because he sees the editors he is interacting with as being a gang against him. It would therefore be useful here for other non-involved editors to review the matter and give their input.  Ty  17:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What exactly is he doing that couldn't be solved with just dropping it, ie. discontinuing any response to them? Are they unrelentingly disrupting a Wikipedia process or venue? Exactly what administrative action would you like to see imposed? Equazcion  ( talk ) 17:56, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that just dropping it would be a fine solution. However, I essentially did this myself, but the user continued being uncivil to me. As for me "running to ANI": I don't come here often and I don't take lightly the posting of this thread. I agree new users should be cut slack, but this user continually behaved sarcastically, was uncivil and engaged in personal attacks after being warned. I hope that after the close of the AfD we can move on and Nineteen Nightmares can continue to contribute to Wikipedia, but with a little more respect for other editors. As for what administrative action would I like? I believe the user has been disrupting (with insults) my talk page and the AfD page. If Nineteen Nightmares stops this behavior, then I suppose no admin action is needed. If it continues, a block seems fitting to give the user some time to again review the salient policies. P. D. Cook  Talk to me! 18:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The AfD stuff may need to stop, true. I haven't given that a thorough look. As for "dropping it" on your talk page: WP:JDI means doing your best to end the exchange. Getting the last insult in, and then complaining when you get two new responses, is far from dropping it. Let the other guy get the last word and then archive the discussion, and then I'll agree that you did what you could. Equazcion  ( talk ) 18:34, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm really not (nor ever was) interested in a fight. I was trying to tone the debate down and offer some help, but I'd hardly call my comments "insults." P. D. Cook  Talk to me! 18:40, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't say you were looking for a fight, only that you perpetuated it. This is not the way to end a fight. It's asking for more. "Small minds" is an insult as far as I'm concerned. Equazcion  ( talk ) 18:44, 23 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you are misreading my intentions there. I was indicating what from this post I believed to be a personal attack (the statement at the end of that diff where NN says "Small minds produce small results"). I was in no way intending an insult. P. D. Cook  Talk to me! 18:50, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I know why Tyrenius has suggested that, but I do believe that 19nightmares is mistaking a group of informed, clue-up-on-policy editors for being a "gang". He will have to accept that this is incorrect. I would say that the AfD is the suitable venue for "non-involved" editors to establish consensus n the article. When that has run out, we will have our answer. Obviously 19nightmares needs to be told, in no uncertain terms, that we can discuss but not shout/disrupt the AfD process. --SGGH ping! 17:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't bring the issue here. I presume Pdcook was implying that, as 19nightmares has been warned over his conduct, and continued the abuse, he should be blocked. His behaviour is disruptive. I was suggesting some advice from others not in the "gang" he imagines to exist might be better at this stage.  Ty  18:32, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment I'm imagining nothing. Go look at the talk pages of the users in question and you will see they work together and bring other editors in to bolster their positions against other articles/users. How about if you just submitted an AfD and then waited for the response from other editors you don't know personally on the site that are likely to back you no matter what the content? That would be too level a playing field, right? You must think me a fool to not see straight through your gig like saran wrap. And yeah I'm upset about it. There is nothing wrong with that. I will do my best to not call anyone "simple minded" if that really bothers you. Nineteen Nightmares (talk) 19:15, 23 April 2010 (UTC)Nineteen Nightmares
 * The article has no notability and the User:Nineteen Nightmares appears to be clueless about wikipedia. Initially I saw his attack on JNW's talk page and I advised him against personal attacks: - I was the first editor to warn him and I was surprised when he deleted it. He is a newbie - he has been cut alot of slack; no one here is a gang people here are volunteers writing an historical project and this fellow is a disruption by virtue of his own actions. He posts an article about an utterly obscure local short-lived publication with no particular political, sociological, religious, economic or philosophical uniqueness - that has absolutely no google hits or valid sources; his article is on AfD aand he is freaking out on everybody else - with no sense of what we are doing here; and he trashes the work people do here and the place itself. I think an uninvolved administrator needs to deal with this fellow...Modernist (talk) 19:17, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment Yeah, that would be nice. Let's get someone objective in here to review the article. You are biased, jaded and working with others to sink this article, that's a blatant fact. You are not innocent as you proclaim but are quite obviously part of a club of juvenile editors that get their yah-yahs out of harrassing people who clearly are still learning to work the site. Thankfully, I have learned quite a lot quickly and it will not be so easy to hoodwink and confuse anymore as in the beginning. Here's an example because I know you will call for one if I don't provide it: one of you nominated my article photos (of the VEM that I took myself this week) because he didn't feel it had the correct template. If he had been anything near altruistic or even the slightest bit helpful, he would have let me know what was wrong and given me time to correct it. Instead, I get a notice that it is being nominated for deletion without a word. It should also be pointed out that by virtue of the fact you guys are continuing to go back and forth on this like we are saving the world, you prove your agenda. The notability is really questionable as a means of deleting the article and you are all stretching it way out of proportion with your ridiculous arguments about notability. Did any of you bother to read the article objectively? Did you see the famous people interviewed or involved with the publication, including among many others, Stan Lee, Ronnie Montrose and Quiet Riot? Again, I ask because no one responds to my legitimate points of defense of the article, how is that "non-notable?" Trying to delete this article over non-notability is insane. You have run out of other things to complain about because I fixed them (with virtually no one's help) even though I am very new to editing on Wiki. (Been a reader for many years now, love it). Nineteen Nightmares (talk) 21:35, 23 April 2010 (UTC)Nineteen Nightmares


 * I am very sympathetic to your situation, because I would prefer that the article be kept, but two things are unfortuanately indisputable: (1) You have provided no citations from reliable sources which indicate the notability of the newspaper, and (2) You have behaved quite badly here and on the AfD discussion. Here's the thing, your article is going to be deleted, because of (1). If you want to save it, stop getting people annoyed at you (which is not going to help in any way whatsoever) and go out and find reliable sources to support the notability of your subject.  There's clearly not anything online, so head for a good library and do some research.  I would suggest that you move the article to your userspace while you do that, and not return it to mainspace until it clearly meets WP:N requirements.  I fully understand that it's easier and more emotionally satisfying to rant and rave to the gods about how supid Wikipedia's policies are and how "biased and jaded" everyone is and so on, but they are nevertheless going to prevail, so you might as well go with the flow and save your article (Which really is the point, isn't it?) Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:54, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Even though I disagree with User:Nineteen Nightmares about the notability of Valley Entertainment Monthly, I would prefer to close this discussion with no action being taken against them. I think we would all be better off if we went back to Articles for deletion/Valley Entertainment Monthly and discussed only the validity of the article, and not what we think of other editors or their attitudes. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 01:46, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that action is no longer necessary at this point. NN seems to be working calmly and productively with other editors now. I hope this continues. P. D. Cook  Talk to me! 02:01, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, things have calmed down. Let's move on for now.  Ty  02:04, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I hope he begins to realize that this work is a collaborative project...Modernist (talk) 02:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment I am aware this is a collaborative project, but honestly, you and JNW should just stay off it. Every editor involved in this, even the ones who initially put me into a state of shock, have been helpful in one way or another, with the exception of you two. Both of you have done nothing but cause trouble and point out what is wrong with the piece, JNW even going so far as to nominate it for deletion on THE DAY AFTER IT WAS CREATED and then walk away. It has also been noted from the talk pages that you go running to Ty whenever you need a big stick. However, I am very glad that Ty came along because he has been VERY HELPFUL. Gonna stay civil, here, but the continued presence of either of you will not be the least bit helpful, and in fact, knowing myself as I do, will probably result in more pointless bickering. Nineteen Nightmares (talk) 16:06, 24 April 2010 (UTC)Nineteen Nightmares
 * For the record, JNW and Modernist are both invaluable contributors to the project without whom much excellent material would not exist on Wikipedia. Nineteen Nightmares seems to have mistaken some standard Wikipedia conduct addressing content concerns for personal malevolence. The latter is not the case.  Ty  21:17, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Moving the article to userspace?
Request - Nineteen Nightmares is interested in withdrawing the article from Mainspace and working on it in userspace. Can he simply move it to an address in his space, or does the fact of it being under AfD mean that an admin needs to do it for him? Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:23, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I would suggest copying it to a userspace if the AfD is still in effect, then he can work on it all he likes as a sandbox? My two cents. SGGH ping! 14:55, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The AfD will have concluded its initial 7 day run tomorrow, so we could just wait that out and close it as userfy. I've already changed my !vote to userfy. P. D. Cook  Talk to me! 15:34, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Good idea, I've !voted to userfy it as well, with hope that the closer will see the wheat in all the chaff. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:50, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As the one who nominated the article for deletion, I fully support the request to close the AFD page after its week is done, and move to userfy. JNW (talk) 16:12, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment Ha ha! Thanks, guys. Sorry for the reactionary responses. I think I'm understanding WIKI and its polices a little better now. Thanks to all who have helped me in any way! Nineteen Nightmares (talk) 15:56, 24 April 2010 (UTC)Nineteen Nightmares

User:SharkJumper: Legal threat regarding image
made a legal threat on my talk page regarding the infobox image at Don Murphy. The derivative image, File:Don Murphy (cropped).jpg, and the original image, File:Don Murphy.jpg, were released under CC licensing. Erik (talk &#124; contribs) 16:23, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The name is particularly ironic, given the impropriety of his response. -- King Öomie  16:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:NLT followed, awaiting retraction of threat. --SGGH ping! 16:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

this is also interesting... "restart the war"?? --SGGH ping! 16:31, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * See -- zzuuzz (talk) 16:36, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Closed this, nothing else to do here. The image appears to be properly licensed, so there's little to be done. Black Kite (t) (c) 16:39, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I saw the edit and tried to call him off, but I guess there's quite a bit of history behind all this. One thing though, the image is rather unflattering, catching the subject in some sort of mid-goofy facial expression.  I'd rather see the article have no image than to keep that one, regardless of sourcing. Tarc (talk) 19:25, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I have re-opened the discussion. The image has been removed, apparently on the grounds of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Woogee (talk) 20:46, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * the user has had an explosion of silliness on his userpage and has been blocked indef with talk page disabled. SGGH ping! 20:47, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * BTW, there is some real-life outing of User:Erik on Murphy's forum page on his website. Woogee (talk) 20:49, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The website should be removed from the person's article, both as a reference as an external link, and perhaps blacklisted. It's been the launchpad for off-wiki harassment of various editors on Wikipedia. Erik (talk &#124; contribs) 20:52, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Woogee, please reread the forum page. I'm Erik Kraft, I'm not wikipedia user Erik. I know this is confusing, but to clarify: this is a different person than the person who posted directly above this comment. Not that it would excuse Don's behavior, but at the core of this nightmare for me is that I'm not the person Don thinks I am and there's no convincing him otherwise. Erik.kraft (talk) 21:20, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I think that this section should be merged with the other one down a few sections. Anyone else agree? Also, I looked at the website and I agree with Woogee and Erik about it. NotAnonymous0 did I err?|Contribs 20:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've merged them, and relabeled the top section with the blocked user's name. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:44, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And, yes, I agree: remove the guy's website as an EL and a ref. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:44, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

New threats by blocked user, and off-wiki stalking
was blocked for legal threats (see above thread). The user is now continuing those threats on his user talk page, and posting a link to a forum where there's a request to expose all information available on the person to whom the threat was made. Could use some more eyes on this, and blocking the user's ability to edit his own user page would be beneficial, although given the past incidents I've read, sockpuppets and meatpuppets are likely to appear. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:18, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * TP access revoked, I also blocked email just in case. Tim Song (talk) 19:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * One wierd thing about this, if Don Murphy objects to the photo, why not simply release a photo that he prefers? A good quality image, presenting the subject in a better way than the current one, released under a CC license, would solve the problem, wouldn 't it? Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:39, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not about the photo.--Cube lurker (talk) 19:42, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It does not matter anymore. We had a drama-free discussion on the talk page, and editors consider the image too lousy for inclusion.  Hard to tell how much it has to do with editors being afraid of him; no one is going to complain about the image at Charles Roven, also from Flickr. Erik (talk &#124; contribs) 19:49, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That one is kinda meh as well, but not in the same ballpark as the Murphy one. For the record, I've never heard of this guy and have little idea of what the beef with Wikipedia is all about. Tarc (talk) 19:52, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You don't want to know. Erik (talk &#124; contribs) 19:53, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Judging from his website and forum, "beef with Wikipedia" doesn't even begin to describe it. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 19:57, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A bit Daniel Brandt-ish it seems, yes. I'm wondering just how much being a producer is really all that notable for an encyclopedia.  He's not exactly in JJ Abrams territory.  Other than some alleged tiff with Tarantino, the sources are more about the work of his Angry Films outfit than the man himself. Tarc (talk) 20:06, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * He's definitely notable. See 1, 2, 3, and 4.  Every time someone tries to edit the article, though, even with an image apparently, stuff hits the fan.  Feel free to expand and see what happens. Erik (talk &#124; contribs) 20:12, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * We should put the image back, just to piss him off. Murphy's funny when he's all worked up. Half  Shadow  02:42, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The forum posts in respect to Erik are comedy gold. Rehevkor ✉  03:13, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not that funny to be outed, guys... in any case, I will be working on his article. If someone like Tarc does not see Murphy's notability in his article, then the producer has successfully exerted control over it.  First off, I removed his website, which is an attack site.  To re-cite his background, I found this, which further solidifies Murphy's notability.  I am not sure if I will be further harassed, so I hope admins will keep an eye on the article as I bring my expertise to it. Erik (talk &#124; contribs) 10:41, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Erik, this is Erik Kraft. Can you explain what you mean by "outed"? Because as far as I can tell it was me who was "outed" and you are still anonymous. You used the same language on your now-deleted Talk page and this was part of the reason why Don was convinced I was you. I feel like I'm through the looking glass here. Erik.kraft (talk) 21:17, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I have to say, I find this all rather shocking. If there's the one thing the Daniel Brandt saga should have taught people here it is that waging war on BLP subjects, who have not chosen to play by in-house rules or etiquette standards, is self-defeating and pathetic. I make no apologies for saying that people who don't want biographies shouldn't have them inflicted upon them, but even those wikipedians who disagree with me and want to insist we should keep dispassionate BLPs regardless of the subject's wishes, should surely find comments like "We should put the image back, just to piss him off" unacceptable. Frankly, the user who made that comment should be banned from wikipedia - it is exactly the wrong attitude here - anyone who can't see that should not be allowed to participate in a project that writes about living people. If an article on Mr Murphy must be kept, it much be constructed by people who are completely objective. Erik should certainly not be working on it - he's quite clearly not going to be dispassionate. Indeed, placing that image on an article, which we know the subject is unhappy with, was clearly not the level of care of our subjects we expect here. Vendettas with living people are quite unacceptable. Nothing but courtesy and care must be shown - regardless of whether annoyed subjects reciprocate that courtesy or not.--Scott Mac 18:47, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Scott, I admit I was heated under the collar because of this situation. I do not like being intimidated, and I like it even less to see the wrong person being intimidated.  I basically responded in my area of expertise, to provide cited, neutral background about a person who pretends that he is not notable.  I started a discussion on the talk page requesting input about my expansion, so please review the article and make any observations about the matter. Erik (talk &#124; contribs) 19:12, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think those taking the piss out of Murphy should be blocked for at least a week. This is an utter disgrace; whatever Murphy does is absolutely no excuse for this behaviour & what is worse is a few kids mucking about reflects so badly on the project. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 20:34, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I see Half Shadow has already been blocked for a week. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 20:39, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What behavior are you speaking of exactly? Halfshadow has already been blocked. User:Erik's reinsertion of the image was reasonable at the time (before all of this happened). What other behavior has there been? Silver  seren C 20:42, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Advice for dealing with a user who won't communicate
Hi there. Over at WikiProject Comics we are experiencing a situation where several of us disagree with the changes an editor has been repeatedly making. We discussed the issue on this thread on the WikiProject's talk page, and then one of us invited him to join in. However, this user never seems to respond to anything on his talk page, and did not respond to us either.

The user's contributions seem to consist mostly of adding and maintaining "Bibliography" (which he calls "Biography") sections to numerous comic book character articles, which simply consist of a list of every single comic issue that character has appeared in - for especially long running characters, these lists can sprawl quite a bit (just imagine fifty pages of "Spider-Man appeared in these comics"). Those of us at the WikiProject concluded that these lists are basically useless, and that a prose "Publication history" section is preferrable by far. I don't know that what this user is doing actually violates any policies, but by not even talking to us I feel he is ingoring consensus, and runs the risk of ultimately being disruptive in regards to the Manual of Style.

Not sure what else to do with this one, and would like some advice. I'm sure this user means well, but being totally unresponsive means it's kind of hard to know what he really is thinking. Blocking the user for being disruptive has been discussed, but I'd prefer not to go that route if we can find a better alternative. BOZ (talk) 01:13, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A couple of things first, this is really an ANI matter and you should have notified NickLenz19 of this discussion. To the meat of the matter, if a consensus is established then willfully ignoring it, and the advices and requests to discuss the issue also, being disruptive. I shall enact a 48 hour block to focus their attention on the concerns raised (you will need to be available to discuss them on their talkpage). If they resume their editing modus upon block expiry then I - or some other admin - can block indefinitely, an option I will note when providing the block notice. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:48, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, I didn't realize I should have brought this up at AN/I, I just figured to get some advice. I can block him if he continues without discussion, if that is appropriate. BOZ (talk) 14:35, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have blocked him, per my comments, for 48 hours. If you can keep an eye on his talkpage, in case he feels the need to comment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LessHeard vanU (talk • contribs) 16:34, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Will do. User:Tenebrae, who has really taken the lead on this issue, will keep an eye out as well. Thanks. My offer of blocking was intended as a future measure in case this one doesn't have any effect. BOZ (talk) 19:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Moved from AN. – xeno talk 16:38, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * We need a canned message for "You are adding too much fancruft to Wikipedia. While Wikipedia discourages this, the commercial Wikia encourages it.  We encourage you to contribute to the ... wiki on Wikia."  Since we have a slush pile available, we may as well use it.  --John Nagle (talk) 19:06, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

User:FreedomforIran
I have suspicions that this new account may be a sock of one-year blocked User:Amir.Hossein.7055, for uploading copyvios. The uploader has uploaded File:M.Mirdamadi.jpg, under CC by SA 3.0, without evidence of permission (alike most of Amir.Hossein's uploads), and has a missing evidence of permission tag to an upload by Amir.Hossein. Looks a bit fishy. Thoughts? Connormah (talk &#124; contribs) 17:16, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You should have notified the editor (which I've done), but yes, this looks very much like a sock. One of the images has, the editor claims, an OTRS number which wasn't showing on the template. Is there anyone around who can now check this OTRS number? . Thanks. You can make an SPI report if no one else decides that the contribution history is enough evidence. Dougweller (talk) 18:05, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There is a valid OTRS ticket for the number given, that asserts that the person responding is authorized to represent Mr. Mehdi Karroubi and that the images here are released under GFDL. The respondent given is "Pujan Ziaie/Virtual Campaign Committee/Mehdi Karroubi's Campaign" from a campaign88.ir email address. Given my lack of knowledge about the subjects and contents, I really can't dispute validity or not. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 18:20, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * My apologies, yes, I should have notified. This user, though however has to learn to not to remove the missing permission tags from image description pages. Connormah (talk &#124; contribs) 20:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Legal threat (above) now real harassment
I'm just a random onlooker in all of this, but I am definitely worried for all parties involved. Regarding an earlier ANI discussion, the problem with the image on the Don Murphy article is dealt with. But it seems that User:Erik unwittingly opened a can of worms.

Don Murphy, on his personal website, began a witch hunt with his cadre of minions to find personal information about User Erik. Well...they found information on a Erik. Unfortunately, Don Murphy and his minions don't seem to be very adept hackers, as they located a random guy named Erik. They were able to pull up his address and his phone number and have been leaving him threatening messages and who knows what else. Luckily, Don has since been deleting a lot of posts on the thread, so the post with Erik's info is gone now, but not before a number of his minions saw it and recorded it and they could still continue to do things to this poor guy.

You can find out more information at the section on Erik's talk page. The guy named Erik has gone to the police and, hopefully, that will pan out well for him. It shouldn't be that hard, since they know who they're going after (Don Murphy).

Now, i'm not blaming User Erik for this or anything like that. I'm just saying that those involved should take at least a modicum of responsibility for this mess. And, thus, I am asking if there is anything that Wikipedia and its users can do to help fix this? Is there anything, perhaps deleting some page histories to get rid of information or stuff like that, that we can do to help in even the slightest bit, as we're the ones that got this guy involved?

Thank you for you time. I'm just worried about this Erik guy. Silver seren C 18:26, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Here's an idea: how about letting people opt out of having a biography? NotDonMurhy (talk) 18:35, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's a better one, how about acting like a grownup instead of a 4chan user if there is an issue with a biography? Beeblebrox (talk) 18:41, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * We generally don't allow that for multiple reasons. Primarily because we are here to show encyclopedia content and notable people are represented regardless. If your page was negative toward you, then there could be an effort to get it changed or rewritten, but it isn't. It is entirely complimentary, which is why i'm confused about why you want it down in the first place.
 * And I don't think you are in any position, Don Murphy, to make any requests of us at this point. Your actions have made it so we are not going to listen to you whatsoever, as Wikipedia does not abide by legal threats and it also our policy to not feed the trolls. And you, my good sir, are most definitely a troll. I am hopeful that the police that Erik has contacted are able to bring legal action against you. And we shall gladly put the news articles that will surely erupt from that onto your article page. Have a nice day. Silver seren C 18:48, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yea, well, legal threats and trolls and all that is all well and good to quote, but it does little good to toss our acronym soup in the face of someone who, honestly, really doesn't give two shits. Know what my preferred wiki-acronym for this is?  WP:BEAR.  Why on earth some users thought it would be a good idea to dredge up an image and put it on an article of someone with a history of antagonism and behavior such as this is baffling. Tarc (talk) 18:52, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's only asking for trouble. I hardly think one phone call is grounds for legal action either (nor is posting an image to a Wikipedia article).  Aiken   &#9835;   18:56, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Please block as either a sockpuppet of ColScott or someone editing by proxy for him.  Perhaps the IP behind it as well? Erik (talk &#124; contribs) 18:54, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict x3) I'm not sure if User Erik knew about this antagonistic approach Don Murphy has toward Wikipedia, but, regardless, the guy named Erik had no reason to be involved until they pulled him in. So, like my question asks, is there anything we can do for him? Silver  seren C 19:03, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The account has only made one edit and asked a fair question. Off2riorob (talk) 19:00, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's clearly an impersonator, or Don Murphy himself (who is banned). Please block.  Aiken   &#9835;   19:02, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

@Silver seren: no, there isn't, other than offering the advice to stay away. Nothing illegal has actually happened yet, so it's best to walk away now.  Aiken   &#9835;   19:05, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I was a really awful picture, this is a good reminder that our articles about living people do have a big impact on the subjects and great care should be taken to report and portray them fairly. Off2riorob (talk) 19:05, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, the picture has nothing to do with this. Yes, the picture was awful, but Murphy has been doing this heckling off and on regardless. He has done it to people that have been improving his article in a good way. So, the picture really had no impact on him whatsoever. Silver  seren C 19:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This is not a forum to discuss your opinions about somebody who is not able to defend themselves. Please stop.  Aiken   &#9835;   19:14, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I apologize for that. I have removed the last line I wrote because it was unnecessary and provocative. I'm just really annoyed about this situation, but I need to make sure I don't step out of line. My personal opinion shouldn't be on Wikipedia. Silver  seren C 19:48, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

http://www.haltabuse.org/resources/laws/california.shtml What Murphy did was illegal IMO. He encouraged people to look this guy up forthe sole purpose of "calling" him. That's harassmentif the guy doesn't want to be called.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.121.157.16 (talk • contribs) 15:15, April 24, 2010

I have messaged Jimmy Wales, who knows about Murphy's disruptive behavior, about this ANI thread. I am pretty sure that Mr. Wales has had a phone conversation with Murphy. Erik (talk &#124; contribs) 19:16, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

This is the Erik Kraft who got pulled into this nightmare tonight. I wanted to thank everyone for trying to help me sort this out. I'm not a regular wikipedia editor so it's been extremely confusing trying to figure out how, if at all, I should contribute to this. Any help would be appreciated, especially information about whether Don's behavior has ever resulted in physical harm to his victims. That is my main concern now, I have no idea what his followers might do.
 * I guess I should retract my earlier comment about 4chan. They at least identify the right person before they start harassing them... Beeblebrox (talk) 19:27, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I know I'm pissing in the wind by saying this, but I generally want to delete any biographies that the subject has a strong opinion about, whether favorable or unfavorable, on the grounds that its neutrality is likely compromised by the subject's involvement. We should only retain the biographies that the subjects are basically indifferent to, and possibly those for major public figures about whom there is a huge amount of documentation from which neutrality can be established.  So we should get rid of this article. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 21:53, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Suicidal?
Following advice given at Responding to threats of harm. 213.130.252.119posted a message on Talk:Suicide methods. Though I know humor when I see it i'm treating this seriously. Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (talk) 19:14, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't bother, if you look at the afd links and the talk page archives, there has been an interment strem of users, usually anon ips, who think this article should be deleted as a "suicide how-to" as if nobody would ever kill themselves if there wasn't a list of methods here. As if nobody ever killed themselves before Wikipedia. As if removing this article would prevent future suicides. In short, it's just run of the mill trolling and not worth further attention. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:35, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

User:Obituarist
I don't know if is some kind of bot, but their only edits are to add a link to The Daily Telegraph's obituary to the articles of recently deceased people. They appear to have been warned several times, but continue regardless. Dancarney (talk) 12:55, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You forgot to notify the user of this discussion as required, but I went ahead and did it for you. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 13:11, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Oops! Thanks. Dancarney (talk) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Clearly not a bot, but a single purpose spam account, who will add an obituary link regardless of its use to the article. They follow the usual MO of spam accounts in that they never respond to concerns, so I suggest a block.--Atlan (talk) 13:12, 22 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Telegraph obituaries are generally pretty good and useful to readers and editors. DuncanHill (talk) 13:33, 22 April 2010 (UTC)


 * True, but it looks like at least at some point (from the user's talk) that they were adding obits for people to articles on companies that didn't appear to have any connection to the deceased. In general, I think we'd prefer to incorporate information from the obituary into the article if possible rather than single-mindedly running around and adding external links. Syrthiss (talk) 13:38, 22 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Different people have different skill and interests in editing. I am not a fan of the "do it this way or not at all" approach. Obit links make information available to readers and editors, to do with as they will. DuncanHill (talk) 13:40, 22 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Looks like a good faith editor who's been template bombed, then we wonder why he has an attitude problem and won't bow down to our Level Four TemplatesTM. It appears only one person has actually had a conversation with him (User:Wine Guy, in February), and as far as I can tell, Obituarist hasn't added an obit to a non-biographical article since then.  I don't think this is spamming, so there's no need to try to browbeat the guy.  Just to see what would happen, perhaps drop by his talk page and politely engage him in a conversation of whether there's a better way. I have no opinion on whether as a general rule obits should be in the external links section, but they are certainly appropriate at least sometimes.  This place is supposed to work collaboratively and incrementally, right? What's wrong with one person adding an obit in the EL's, and whenever another editor comes along who wants to incorporate the info into the article, they can, and then remove the link? --Floquensock (talk) 14:34, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I second that. We throw AGF and BITE around all the time on this board, and yet we're all too ready to whack the block button when it comes to it. The edits, from what I can see don't appear to be disruptive and engaging somebody in conversation rather than templating them can do wonders and has been known to turn determined vandals into productive editors. Now of course, if the edits become disruptive, we can start thinking about blocks, but let's put our money where our mouths are and enact AGF and BITE. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   14:43, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And I third it. There's no reason to assume this editor is a "single purpose spam account". Note also that they have responded to concerns, although not necessarily agreeing with them. See this. All the articles listed were very rich in information, and do not indicate bad faith. Nor were they in such a quantity to be disruptive. Many times I'm come across good faith and potentially valuable editors who honestly thought the links would be helpful, and they are treated like criminals. One of the worst cases was the archivist of the New York Philharmonic who was threatened with blocking for adding links to their archives, which hold a wealth of information. Whatever happens, I hope trigger-happy spam fighters don't blacklist the links to the newspapers themselves. See also my arguments re the Prince of Austrurias Foundation here Voceditenore (talk) 14:54, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No reason to assume it's a single purpose spam account? They're called "obituarist" and all they do is add links to obituaries. Assuming they're a single purpose account is hardly a stretch. Yes, I was too quick to suggest a block as I see they actually have addressed concerns, but I hardly agree with you comparing that to treating them like a criminal.--Atlan (talk) 15:07, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It may be single-purpose, but it's not a "spam" account by any stretch of the imagination. And by "treated like criminals", I was referring to the way the New York Philharmonic archivist was treated and cautioning against doing it here. Voceditenore (talk) 15:18, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Not just the New York Phil we've treated badly, you can add Gresham College, the American Institute of Physics and the Encyclopedia of Alabama to the list. DuncanHill (talk) 15:23, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Unsure why someone would be warned for linking to an obituary. The Daily Telegraph is generally considered to be a reliable source, and certainly not spam. That the editor added it to multiple bios isn't a problem at all. We can just gently suggest they use a bot, if the edits are fast and numerous enough.  Aiken   &#9835;   17:32, 22 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The number of links is excessive (close to 500 of them it looks like) but templating the user is obnoxious. Can we delete all those damn templates?  There should be a new policy, "write in English" when trying to resolve a problem peacefully.  Don't template someone unless you're about to block them.  But there should certainly be a dialog with the user about COI and the EL guideline.  In general the standard for adding an extlink to an article is much higher than that the linked content might contain useful info.  It's ok to add the link to the talk page for a reason like that, as I did last night at talk:pair-instability supernova.  If I work up the energy for it I might leave a note for the user, and I'm also inclined to move the links from the articles to the talk pages. 66.127.53.162 (talk) 20:16, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Aiken, using a bot to add extlinks to 100's of articles is the last thing we want. Using a bot to remove the extlinks is more appropriate. 66.127.53.162 (talk) 20:17, 22 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Please don't go mass moving the links to the talk pages. They are far more beneficial to readers and editors on the subject pages. DuncanHill (talk) 21:06, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Support for this, I have already found a couple of the links that he added beneficial to the article, one of them confirmed a disputed date of birth.It is a bit excessive but it is also beneficial, he will likely slow down or stop as there are only so many obituaries. IMO his edits are beneficial. Off2riorob (talk) 21:19, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a directory of links. Whether a link belongs in an article is an editorial matter that should be evaluated on a case by case basis per WP:EL.  There's a substantial question here of whether a suitably neutral evaluation took place before adding the links we're discussing.  I might move a few of them to talk pages and ask for discussion, and use the results to form a proposal about what to do with the rest of them.  I might also ask for advice at WT:WPSPAM, and might remove some links based on spot checks if I review them under WP:EL and find they don't meet the standard (but I don't have the energy to do that for 100's of links).  Let me know how this sounds.  I agree that a unilateral mass move would be disruptive and I won't do that without prior agreement.  Note: merely "beneficial to the article" is not the standard for adding a link.  We add beneficial material to articles by writing the material ourselves, not by linking to it outside of conditions discussed in the guideline. 66.127.53.162 (talk) 21:27, 22 April 2010 (UTC)


 * And this editor is not turning Wikipedia into a directory of links. I am well aware that the WPSPAM police do not like any links to e.g. reputable newspapers, encyclopaedias, expert institutions or anything else that might make Wikipedia better for the reader, or easier for the editor. There is no need to do anything about the links. DuncanHill (talk) 01:05, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure, let's shut down the blacklists and let the every article have a link to UniverseDaily and 700 YouTube copyvios. Why didn't I think of that? ;-) Guy (Help!) 21:33, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah! The old slippery slope argument! Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:06, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Not really. The vast majority of people whose actions on Wikipedia are restricted to adding external links to a single site, are unambiguously spammers. In fact, this is the first case I can recall where there is even a small amount of doubt, and even here the fact is that adding many links to a single newspaper can quite legitimately be interpreted as spamming. A Wikipedian adds content, this person has just been adding links and all to a single newspaper (and there is no such thing as a politically and socially neutral newspaper, so that may be a problem). The "spam police" perform a necessary function, and the examples I gave are examples of widespread and ongoing abuse. If the "spam police" were shut down, Wikipedia would become a link farm. Parts of it already are. The idea is that we are selective about external links, they are mainly there as sources or to provide additional information beyond the scope of the project. I don't like it when people erect barriers just to place others on the outside of them, which is what this talk of "spam police" does. The spam project is no different from vandalism patrollers or any other controller of abuse. Guy (Help!) 09:47, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * No one is suggesting "shutting down blacklists". We are suggesting that those responsible for them exercise thought and care and make a proper evaluation of the benefit of the links to Wikipedia's editors and to our readers. To equate articles in one of the UK's leading newspapers, the archives of the New York Philharmonic, an encyclopedia of the Alabama state history, edited by a team of professors, etc. etc. with YouTube copyvios and UniverseDaily is absurd. We are also suggesting that every editor who adds links to multiple articles not be thoughtlessly template-bombed, branded as a "spammer", and threatened with blocking. Assume a little good faith, and you might even attract a few more expert editors. Voceditenore (talk) 09:49, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

This is apparently a good faith contributor using a single purpose account to link to an external site for obituaries. The intentions may be good, but I inherently have concerns anytime anyone edits here primarily to add external links to a single external site. It may be a reliable source, but Wikipedia is not a repository for obituary links. jæs (talk) 10:05, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The obits are potentially reliable sources but they're not cited by anything in the article, so as presently used, they're not sources at all, much less reliable sources. "Making a proper evaluation of the links" is precisely the issue here, since it doesn't look like anybody has made such an evaluation of most of these links (that means review the obit per the WP:EL guideline).  If the purported benefit of the link is that the linked obit contains info relevant to the article for readers, the answer is Sofixit by adding the relevant info to the article, citing the obit as appropriate.  And if the purported benefit is to editors for use in further article development, that's what the talk page is for, hence the proposal to move the links to the talk pages.   And if someone involved in writing an article extlinks a marginally relevant obit, I'd probably leave it alone as a matter of respecting the person's editorial judgement; if they do it in five or ten articles they're not involved in, I'd probably revert and leave them a talk message; adding links to 500 articles with no involvement = spam campaign or at least fait accompli mass edit which is inappropriate.  We are not a marketing engine for UK's leading newspapers or anyone else.  We're writing an encyclopedia and all relevant encyclopedic info should be in the articles, not in extlinks.  There is another site devoted to finding extlinks connected to a topic, and people who want that site know where to find it. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 22:57, 24 April 2010 (UTC)  (Oops: 66.127.53.162 is also me.)

Quick WP:CSD assessment request
Could another administrator please take a look at this article, compare with the old version as well as the issues raised in the AfD and decide whether deletion as a repost is appropriate. The creator keeps removing the CSD tag and, as I contributed to the AfD, I'm not uninvolved. Thanks, – Toon 22:51, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Front Page/Featured Article

 * moved here per request. -  NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 01:35, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Greg Tseng and disruptive editing


Greg Tseng is a marginally notable businessman whose main source of independent coverage is that two separate companies run by him have gotten in trouble with the FTC for using deceptive bulk-emailing practices (that is, "spam"). This assertion is well sourced in both of the articles linked above, so it's not a matter of poorly sourced negative material. Luitgard and UnnotableWorldFigure are two editors with a very substantial interest in Mr. Tseng.

Luitgard has tended to edit with a view toward increasing Mr. Tseng's prominence on Wikipedia, which necessarily makes the coverage of his spamming more visible (e.g. ; note the preceding edit summary by UnnotableWorldFigure as well). While he may (or may not) be angling to injure Mr. Tseng's reputation, to the best of my knowledge he hasn't violated Wikipedia's editorial policies in doing so; at the very least, he has not done so blatantly - before today. Today he has unfortunately made a very large number of reverts (larger than, say, three) on Greg Tseng as a part of an edit war.

UnnotableWorldFigure, on the other hand, has tended to edit to decrease Greg Tseng's profile on Wikipedia, and to remove assertions that he has been involved in spamming. He has repeatedly reverted to remove a link to List of spammers from Greg Tseng, and he has also been the other party in today's edit war there. My major concern - the only reason I am involved in this at all - is that he has also been removing well-referenced content from List of spammers, replacing Greg Tseng's name with the name of one of his companies, on the grounds that the references only mention that company spamming. In these same edits, he removes two references specifically referring to the other company (e.g., ). Needless to say, if you remove all mention of something, it will no longer be mentioned. He has repeatedly reverted on that page as well.

In my opinion, Luitgard deserves one hell of a slap on the wrist for getting involved in today's edit war. UnnotableWorldFigure, on the other hand, needs to be forcibly separated from his current editing pattern in some appropriate manner. If he has concerns about the way we cover Mr. Tseng, then he needs to address this in a collegial and collaborative manner. For that matter, we could stand to have more eyes on the Greg Tseng BLP as well. Here's hoping this wasn't a case of TL;DR; I made it as short as I could. — Gavia immer (talk) 03:49, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Deepest apologies to all concerned for the editing war. I didn't know about the 3r rule.  I though I was just undoing precipitous editing for which no consensus had been reached. I was also afraid UnnotableWorldFigure (UWF) would bury the article in capricious edits that would be hard to recover from. I now see that the content versions can be safely rolled back if need be, so my fear was unfounded. I will read about proper procedures over the weekend. I think the record will show that I really did try very hard to reason with UWF in a "collegial and collaborative" fashion.  I conceded in the editing war to stop it as soon as I could get UWFs attention. I also immediately and urgently asked other more experienced editors for help, and will continue to do so in a more measure fashion in the future as their patience allows :( I was at something of a loss as I'd never seen such relentless and uncompromising behavior on Wikipedia before and wasn't really sure how to deal with it.  Again, apologies to all and best regards. Luitgard (talk) 04:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict with Luitgard) Pending a review by an administrator, the edit warring issue seems to have been resolved at AN3; see this thread. On the content issue, there's more to be said and I'd be happy to elaborate should the need arise. Adrian J. Hunter(talk•contribs) 04:39, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Hello Adrian, I'd be interested in any info on the content question. If this is not the place for it, please post it on my page or elsewhere. Regards, Luitgard (talk) 04:50, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * My apologies for not being aware of the separate discussion at AN3, but it looks like that is only discussing Greg Tseng. As I've mentioned, I'm personally most concerned about the disruption at List of spammers, which doesn't look like it's been addressed there. — Gavia immer (talk) 04:56, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Gavia is actually understating the matter. There were 3 references that mentioned two of Tseng's companies, two of which also mentioned Tseng by name. UnnotableWorldFigure would delete the refs that mentioned Tseng by name and then say that the remaining one didn't mention Tseng, only his company, and then remove Tseng from the list of spammers because he was not mentioned in the remaining reference.  Requests to discuss the matter were apparently ignored. Gavia would have a better count of how often this cycle or a similar one was repeated as I came across the process when it was on going.Luitgard (talk) 05:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * For the most part I agree with Gavia's summary and wish that Gavia's discussion of the "List of Spammers" page had been as coherent as the above writings. What is missing from this discussion is the fact that the latest round of edits initiated when somebody else marked the Greg Tseng article as an orphan and Luitgard reverted that and subsequently began scrambling to justify it, primarily by adding his name to a bunch of random lists to justify the claim that the Greg Tseng article is not an orphan. The fact of the matter is that if you take away this spurious lists ("Entrepreneurs", "Spammers", "Thomas Jefferson 'famous' alumni") there is only one article linking in, and that is the Tagged article. Given that Tseng's accomplishments outside of Tagged are impressive but comparable to thousands of other people not famous enough to have their own articles, it would be wholly appropriate to do what we would do if this were, say, a contestant on Survivor season 18, and just have his name redirect to Tagged. Can anyone make a coherent argument that this should not be done? I strongly contend that Luitgard's only motivation for not doing this is a desire to damage Mr. Tseng's reputation, and if anyone needs evidence to back up this claim, just do a 5 minute google search for combinations of Greg Tseng and Luitgard, and then spend 10 minutes reading the content of all the contribs from User:Luitgard with emphasis on her contribs to other people's talk pages. UnnotableWorldFigure (talk) 09:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Gavia – no worries, you weren't to know of the other thread. Although it concerns a different article, it concerns the same two contributors.  Both are relatively inexperienced and I believe both were simply unaware of Wikipedia's rules about edit warring.  Ttonyb has brought this to their attention on their user talk pages and made some very sensible suggestions at Talk:Greg Tseng .  I think the content issues can be sorted out at the appropriate talk pages (or if not, WP:DRR).  So I'd suggest marking this thread and the AN3 thread resolved, though I feel too involved to do so myself.  (Struck per below). Adrian J. Hunter(talk•contribs) 08:19, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * As it happens, I am not unaware of Wikipedia's rules about edit warring, as this was the 3rd time I've reported someone for 3RR. Luitgard repeatedly tried to get up her version of the article and say "can we stop and discuss this on the talk page", where the implication of "stop now" was "leave the most damaging version up for Google to see". That was simply not acceptable to me, and ultimately we stopped with the less damaging version visible to Google. I have no regrets about my actions.UnnotableWorldFigure (talk) 08:55, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * As some of you know, the suggested 24 hour cooling off period was not observed by all parties. The article was unilaterally reverted to a prior edit by UnnotableWorldFigure without consultation or consensus. I have proposed restoration of the word spammer to the intro of the article on the Greg Tseng talk page and will solicit UnnotableWorldFigure's comments on that proposal before proceeding further. As always, any guidance is appreciated. Regards, Luitgard (talk) 14:59, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * UnnotableWorldFigure, your self-incriminating post to AN3, your comments here, and your continued edit-warring at Greg Tseng – even reverting the very contributor that tried to advise you – indicate that you have not understood Wikipedia's expectations about edit warring. It would be in your own best interests to revise WP:EW and reconsider your comments here.


 * Folks, administrators have no special authority in content disputes and this isn't the place to discuss them. Let's keep content matters to the appropriate talk pages and use WP:DRR if necessary.  Adrian J. Hunter(talk•contribs) 15:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Adrian I understand Wikipedia's expectations just fine, and if meeting those expectations means leaving unreasonable content up on the top Google listing for an individual then I will not meet those expectations. You can view that as incriminating if you like, but I don't live my life under the jurisdiction of Wikipedia. And besides, if I remember correctly you were the person who defended my stance that WP:BLP supercedes WP:3RR -- forgive me if I have misremembered. UnnotableWorldFigure (talk) 03:02, 25 April 2010 (UTC) (ETA: Sorry, I guess I mixed up the chronology. I saw your message above for the first time just now, but it appears to be 2.5 hours older than the message I am referencing in my rebuttal. You can ignore this) UnnotableWorldFigure (talk) 03:08, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

UnnotableWorldFigure is now back to revert-warring on List of spammers. Is nobody willing to enforce our rules against edit warring? — Gavia immer (talk) 03:24, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Pot, meet kettle. I made a good faith edit (do you know the difference between an edit and a revert?) to fix the accuracy of a new sentence that was added yesterday, and you reverted it with the commentary "Stop that". Are you planning to punish yourself for edit warring, or is it ok as long as you're the one who started it? Right now the number of reverts today is tied 2-2 between you and me. UnnotableWorldFigure (talk) 03:30, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * This edit (the first one you included in parentheses above) is a perfectly reasonable edit and was not a revert to any version previously in existence. It also more closely matches the facts as they are laid out in the source document. It is against Wikipedia policy for you to revert this without visiting the talk page first. UnnotableWorldFigure (talk) 03:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Speedy deletion Uighur house
I placed a speedy deletion tag on Uighur house a redirect that has been directly linked to Al-Qaeda safe house. The speedy deletion was rejected by one administrator. I ask than on the articles talk page for references that could justify to link "Uighur houses" to Al-Qaeda but no joy so far. This is an exceptional claim that needs executional sources we usually would find references all over the place what is not the case here.

The Uighurs are an ethnic group living in Eastern and Central Asia and "Uighur house" is a basic search term in connection with this ethnic group. Our redirection is now number one in Google search results for this term. That means anybody who is looking for basic information of this ethnic group or their houses gets redirected to al-Qaeda.

I request again the speedy deletion of this page as this misinformation is an unjustified discrimination against the Uighur people and i do think this needs additional administrator attention now. IQinn (talk) 21:21, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the above request is reasonable, as Uighur is unrelated to al-Qaeda and redirects to Uyghur, the more common spelling - thus seeking information on dwellings relating to this culture and people sends people to a completely different topic. Unless there are good references for the term "Uighur house" relating to al-Qaeda then this seems an obvious delete/re-redirection. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This is the very first time I have seen the spelling Uyghur - Uighur is more common. DuncanHill (talk) 22:48, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree and was about to send it to WP:RFD, unless someone wants to just kill it first. Santa Claus of the Future (talk) 21:51, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

FYI. I changed the redirect to instead point to Uyghur people. Since linking the "Uighurs" to "al-Qaeda" seems, prima facie, to be an extreme violation of WP:NPOV, this is a more neutral choice. Justin W Smith talk/stalk 21:56, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe in addition to "BLP", we now need BLE ("... living ethnicities"). This is nuts. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 22:54, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This was apparently created as a good-faith redirect in the course of User:Geo Swan's extensive work on Guantanamo detainees, in connection with a series of articles dealing with the concept of alleged Al Qaida safe houses, among them Al Qaida guest houses, Kabul. But I agree this particular redirect doesn't seem to make much sense. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:04, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

fwiw, I was the admin who declined it, on the grounds that it needed discussion--not on the grounds that I thought it was a good redirect, for I did not think that, and I informed Geo accordingly. I'm glad it has been changed for the better.  DGG ( talk ) 03:33, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Marysville, Ohio banner
I really hope that I'm in the right place here; I've never used this forum before. I don't think it fits it any of those categories up there (BLP, 3RR, vandalism, etc.), so hopefully this is the place.

User:Wiki Historian N OH is an editor with a rather virulent case of WP:OWN, regarding Marysville, Ohio. The primary manifestation of this has been his insistence on the placement of this banner at the very top of the article: A number of other editors have taken note of this banner and have removed it, noting in their edit summaries that this was not standard Wikipedia practice, and that it may violate (albeit unintentionally) WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. . Some have attempted to engage in discussion on the talk page, but Wiki Historian N OH generally ignores their points; s/he has arguments that seem to boil down to the following: S/he actually tries to make some other points, but many of them are very confusing, such as the following (which here are taken out of context, but make no more sense within context):
 * This is a rare honor bestowed on American cities, warranting the special recognition through the banner.
 * The visual has an impact in drawing attention and curiosity to the whole page. It also makes it more fun, like pictures.
 * The political existence of this city is attached to the political designation it received.
 * As the guidelines state, no one owns an article, therefore lacking any definitive authority to remove something rivals vandalism and compromises the integrity of Wikipedia.
 * The only weight the banner places in the article is the weight of the entire article itself, not just one aspect of it lacking an attachment to everything else.
 * Ultimately, if the Wiki folks don't like it, hardly can one object, but they've yet to.

Actually, the single best point that WHNO has brought up, albeit indirectly, via rhetorical question, is to compare his banner creation to the infobox heading for places on the National Register of Historic Places. I made the mistake (in the interest of prompting some civil back-and-forth discussion), of acknowledging that this was an interesting and relevant comparison, but that an infobox was not really the same thing.  Well, WHNO took my opening and ran with it, declaring, 98.82.23.93 has conceded their position has failed on the merits.

And while I have repeatedly attempted to find an opening for a polite discussion, s/he has ignored others' arguments and even accused those who have clearly been making honest attempts to work things out of committing vandalism (that dif was his response to a first-time editor of this article). But the key point is, throughout this whole matter, not one editor has indicated one iota of concurrence with User:Wiki Historian N OH, yet s/he continues to revert everyone's removals of the banner, usually without the courtesy of an edit summary or explanation on the talk page (unlike those who have explained their removals).

I do recognize that the future of the project is not endangered by this issue. But I don't see that WHNO has given me any real choice (other than to ignore the matter, which is I suspect how s/he has been operating so far--waiting until others get bored and just go away). And if I am told by objective persons here that I am wrong, I will drop the matter. But please read the patient arguments that I and others have advanced, the courtesy that I and others have extended, and the genuine good faith efforts that were attempted at great length before this venue was approached. Thanks. 98.82.23.93 (talk) 04:39, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * 98.82.23.93 left me an ANI notification. How am I involved here?  Marysville isn't on my watchlist, and the last time I edited the article was in July.  I've never edited the talk page at all.  Nyttend (talk) 05:03, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This isn't something that belongs on a page, whether it be at the top or the bottom, but the top is never the place for anything but the facts. A category would be better for this. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 05:22, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Pictogram voting support.svg Fully protected&#32;for a period of 1 month, after which the page will be automatically unprotected. At minimum, this month-long edit war needs to stop.  Both parties need to carry on a civil discussion at the article talk page regarding this issue.  The back and forth edit war needs to stop first.  Now, everyone can get on to discussing the issues in a civil manner.  -- Jayron  32  05:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * With all due respect to fellow administrator Jayron, I doubt this is the best response. This seems to me to be taking the principle of admin-non-involvement to the absurd extreme of total content agnosticism. This is not a situation where more discussion is needed to establish consensus. Consensus and policy already exist, everything seems to have been said that needs to be said, and there is a single obviously disruptive element editing against this consensus. Sometimes, there is a "right" and "wrong", even on Wikipedia. Let's not burden our constructive editors with an obligation to keep "discussing" this with somebody who evidently doesn't wish to listen; let's keep this article open for normal editing, and just block the disruptive element if they persist. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:25, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If I'm understaning FPAS correctly, I believe I agree. The banner serves no useful encyclopedic purpose, only a promotional one regarding the town, which is not our concern. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Good idea protecting the page. I think User:Wiki Historian N OH should be warned that banners like these should never be placed on any page in mainspace.  User:Wiki Historian N OH should also be warned about WP:OWN as there is a clear case of it from what I have seen. -  NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 07:48, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have also taken a look at the Marysville, Ohio article and several pictures need to be removed. The ones of Al Gore, Laura Bush, George and Barbara Bush, William Henry Harrison, among a couple others need to be removed as completely unnecessary to the page and the ones of Gore and the Bushs appear not to be taken in that town. -  NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 07:55, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If you see a need for such changes – and you may well have a point there – then that's just one more reason not to lock the page down for a full month. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:59, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * After looking into this more, this section seems to be written with a political slant and in violation of NPOV. I would recommend an editor or two from WP:CITIES give the page a once-over to see if there are anymore NPOV statements.  I am also seeing alot of weasel words like "Marysville is blessed" and "Marysville would be changed forever".  Just two I seen in two sections. -  NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 08:03, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the continued posts, but I need to raise further concerns, like with User:Wiki Historian N OH changing of LGBT to alternative lifestyle in this post. Like the use of clearly not reliable sources in the following links: 1, 2, 3, 4.  Plus, continued use of pictures not meant for use in town pages (this one was about a model).  These are just going back a couple days. -  NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 08:26, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * NeutralHomer raises some good style points, and I too think this full protection was an inappropriate measure. Unless a strong case can be made for keeping it protected, I'll unprotect in a little while so actual work can be done whilst there are eyes on the article. If WikiHistorian continues to reinsert the banner against the fairly clear consensus against its placement, he will be blocked like any other combative editor. — Huntster (t @ c) 08:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Couldn't care less about the place, but... on my watchlist now. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 08:21, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ??? > As a matter-of-principle question: Is this article now reserved for administrators-only edits for the next month? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 09:01, 24 April 2010 (UTC) Nevermind Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 09:07, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Per my above post, I've unprotected the article. I agree, Choy, that wasn't a good edit to make...only highly uncontroversial edits should be made by admins while full protection exists. — Huntster (t @ c) 09:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree the protection wasn't appropriate given just one editor is causing trouble in the article. Sometimes it's possible to use sweet reason and convince such editors to switch to articles in subjects they're less invested in.  Good luck ;) 69.228.170.24 (talk) 12:29, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I just did some cleanup myself there. I just counted thirty six images on the page and I was wondering if anyone else thought most of them should go since they really aren't adding much besides promotion. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 14:38, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with the pictures. While having them is a good thing, sometimes having too many can clutter the page and this page looks VERY cluttered with pictures.  Some are there just to show where a business is (like the Scotts plant in the town)....not needed.  I think the page should go up for peer review where people who work on nothing but Geography pages, can take a look and evaluate the page and see what needs to be done. -  NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 22:07, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think these discussions about article content can now be safely taken back to the article talk page. Let this be sorted out through normal editing (and thanks to all who volunteered to look into the cleanup issues); "Wiki Historian" has been warned not to disrupt further consensus editing and can be blocked if he obstructs the process. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:31, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Question Could somebody interpret "Will accept assignments from those looking for article creation or editing" (along with an email address) (from User:Wiki Historian N OH) for me? That sounds to me like we're dealing with a spammer for hire.  69.228.170.24 (talk) 10:02, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Yeah, that looks like "Wikipedian for Hire". I think that isn't allowed.  For reference, the post the anon is commenting on is here and was made back in October of 2009.-  NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 10:13, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

User:MidnightBlueMan reverting articles without putting forward reasons, and reverting even after discussion
This editor has been warned in the past about this exact behaviour, and has been blocked. Admin User:Ryan Postlethwaite appears to not be around, so I think I should post here. He has been blocked very recently here initially, and then warned and blocked for an extended period again here. From the comments he left at the original blocking editor Talk page here, my concern is that this editor intends to continue in this vein and doesn't see any problem. Not sure if it's a coincidence, but Ryan is away and this editor is back to the same disruptive behaviour with reverts to articles without giving reasons or discussions. For example, since his last block we've had: These articles were discussed at this page and even where an opportunity to put forward a case why the edits were incorrect, none were put forward. Yesterday when I tried restoring the articles, after the discussion indicated that the edits were not incorrect, MidnightBlueMan has engaged in tendentious reverting, again with reasons. This editor is deliberately gaming the system, and despite being warned and blocked several times in the past, which his Talk page is a testament to, he still just thumbs his nose at the community and refuses to comply with behaviour guidelines and policies. --HighKing (talk) 20:11, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Settlement of Iceland where one of the reasons he gives on the Talk page is by editors whose primary objective is to remove the phrase "British Isles".
 * Language school with no reason given as to why the original edit was incorrect
 * List of most common surnames in Europe - no reason given for the revert
 * Weisse Frauen - no reason given for the revert
 * The Manor House Bishop Bridge - no reason given for the revert


 * Since there is background here with which I'm unfamiliar, I'm going to notify an admin who seems to be more aware of the situation on British Isles articles. (I see he has left a note about reversion restrictions on MidnightBlueMan's page before.) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:37, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've taken this to Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/Specific Examples. Black Kite (t) (c) 12:57, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Forgot password, email address changed
I haven't used my account in a very long time (several years), and in that time, I have forgotten my password. Worse, my school changed its email system around, so my old email address is no longer valid. The email username is the same, but the domain is different (@eng.usf.edu becomes @mail.usf.edu). I was wondering if I can just change the domain on the WP account to the new one. If any administrators can help, I would appreciate it; I will check this space for what I would have to do. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.68.100 (talk • contribs)
 * Just a note, the above post is from a Road Runner (TimeWarner Cable) account per this and not registered to the University of South Florida. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 04:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I moved off-campus 3 or 4 years ago. A call to the school's IT department should confirm the switchover I described. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.68.100 (talk • contribs)
 * I know I read this exact same request recently on some board somewhere but I can't place where, pretty sure it was explained that there's nothing we can do-- Jac 16888 Talk 04:05, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, sorry. If you don't have your password and the e-mail you provided is non-functioning, the account is not usable. You'll have to register for a new account, unless your old account qualifies for usurpation (which I'm sorry to say seems unlikely). --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:25, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Since there's nothing we can do, and this is the wrong venue for such a query anyway, I'm closing this thread. ╟─ Treasury Tag ► inspectorate ─╢ 12:26, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Administrator intervention against vandalism
Backlogged, just so you know.--219.89.70.109 (talk) 05:52, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Legal Threat
I wasn't sure what to make of this and thought to bring it here, just to be on the safe side. Although "...I am in the process of contacting the FBI in a cyber-stalking case..." seems a little too clear. Outback the koala (talk) 08:16, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think with something like this, it's a question of the spirit of WP:NLT. I don't see this individual using legal threats to quash the Wikipedia process. (For those who haven't followed: He's responding to a procedural AfD listing that was purportedly opened on his request, explaining that the person who made the request is an impostor and that he did not request the AfD.) I think this one is probably okay. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:10, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree with Moonriddengirl. No legal threat, really. TN <b style="color:midnightblue; font-size:larger;">X</b> Man  12:37, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Repeated copyright violation
was given warnings yesterday about copyright violations, as many (most?) of their pages were copy/pasted from various sources. They acknowledged the warnings this morning and then directly proceeded to recreate a page that was G12'd yesterday, and fleshing it out with the same copyrighted material. VernoWhitney (talk) 13:28, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * 31 hour block, with a reminder to read the policies. If it persists, we'll have to take further action. Meanwhile, I suppose a check of other contribs is in order just to make sure this is restricted to the one article. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:45, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You're too nice. :-) I think most of his image uploads are copyvio of album covers, I deleted one that I could easily find elsewhere on the web. Dougweller (talk) 14:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Range block sought for IP anon with rotating address
Per this discussion, I am seeking an IP range block for a user who appears to do nothing more than remove citation requests from articles, then move on to a new IP address and do it again. It is pointless to block each IP address individually, because he can just get a new one. BOZ (talk) 14:42, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * blocked 2 weeks. Let me know if they switch to another IP or come back after the block. Tim Song (talk) 14:54, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Will do, thanks - 60.166.73.198 popped up on my watchlist today, and it looks like they've been at it for a while with multiple different IPs. BOZ (talk) 15:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Repeated Talk page blanking
User:Ruin Cireela blanked the page Talk:List of Adventure Time with Finn and Jake episodes after User:AdventureTime suggested there that Ruin Cireela's edits were inappropriate (diff). I restored the talk page's content and warned the user not to blank talk pages. The user again blanked the talk page and then made a series of edits similar to those earlier objected to by AdventureTime (first diff of six). I have advised Ruin Cireela to stop blanking the Talk page and to seek consensus with other editors before again editing the List. I suggested that failure to do so may result in temporary page protection. I also rolled back the controversial edits to the List, though I have not paid close attention to their content as I have no particular interest in the content of the page. Cnilep (talk) 15:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No need to protect the page, you have given the editor a final warning and a link to this discussion where they might rationalise their actions; if they blank a talkpage again, and especially without responding to the various comments, then report them to AIV for disruption. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:01, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

User:Jacksisco
User:Jacksisco has violated the image use policy and continues to violate user page guidelines. I would recommend a block for a lengthy period and, upon lifting of the block, he obtain an indefinite block if he continues his Myspace-like editing (see his edit count). He has contributed photos likely to be non-free as his own. His editing is disruptive because he occasionally adds categories and article templates to his user page which contaminate the encyclopedia categories. Repeated attempts to contact the user have been ignored, as have repeated offers of help. Jason Quinn (talk) 15:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have blanked the userpage per WP:NOT and warned them against repeating the actions. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:10, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Mass canvassing
Jerzeykydd had engaged in an edit war twice(1,2,3,4,5,6) the las 6 weeks on the article Public image of Barack Obama, in which he was warned, but evidently not blocked for. After finally taking the issue up on the talk page, but not getting the results desired, the user is now mass canvassing other editorsto get the results the editor wants(1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12). And that's half of the 24 messages(so far) the user has sent. DD2K (talk) 23:45, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I am not canvassing. It was nonpartisan and unbiased. I'm trying to get a Third opinion. Nothing biased, just trying to get more opinions. That edit war was a long time ago. I'm trying to get the conversation started again to get this issue resolved.--Jerzeykydd (talk) 23:50, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Can we ever have a discussion without having someone come on here and complain? --William S. Saturn (talk) 23:56, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you should read the canvassing guidelines(particularly the "Votestacking" and "Excessive cross-posting" portions. It wouldn't hurt to read WP:Third Opinion either, since your mass messages have nothing to do with what it states in that section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DD2K (talk • contribs) 00:01, 25 April 2005


 * I'd like to know if the users canvassed would be likely to support one pov over another or whether they are a fair cross section of those contributing to this area. I'd particularly like to hear Jerzeykydd's explaination of why he chose those editors to canvass. Spartaz Humbug! 08:24, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I chose those specific editors because they are active in wikipedia and specifically in American political articles.--Jerzeykydd (talk) 15:49, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm curious what criteria, exactly, you used. I would seem to be a poor candidate for either of those. --Rory096 18:51, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not know every user that Jerzeykydd notified, but one would have to have some kind of criteria when gathering the list of users you were canvassing. It seems as if you were contacting users you thought would be sympathetic to your desired removal of content and mixed in some users that were not. Also, how does DemosforCongress fit even the vague criteria you listed above? The user has not edited since January 9, has only a handful of total edits, but has a user page that states "George Demos is a Republican candidate for U.S. Congress in the First District of New York". Even after the canvassing and discussion on the talk page, you had editors(including yourself) remove portions of the article that were being discussed. DD2K (talk) 19:34, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit Warring on Talk:John J. Pershing
User:Mk5384 is edit warring on the talk page of the John J. Pershing article. This appears to be about some comments that User:Aunt Entropy made about MK's views on this article as well as another the user is involved in. MK then began removing the comments of Aunt E, saying they were off-topic. However, I do not think that this is appropriate since it did seem to be a legit question and was not vandalism. In any event, MK has now removed the comments three times. -OberRanks (talk) 15:52, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And a fourth time now as well; the last edit also cutting out some comments I made. -OberRanks (talk) 15:59, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Mk5384 asked me about this:


 * I'm heading out; so I don't have the time to look into this further. – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 16:09, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed the comment, stated that I had done so, stated why, notified the user, and notified an admin. OberRanks said that he would leave it to the original editor, then put it back himself 3 different times. I have gone out of my way to be polite on the Pershing article.Mk5384 (talk) 16:20, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I put an in use template here, as I have been trying to finish my statement. However, it is continually being ignored, so I will return to this.Mk5384 (talk) 16:29, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll try to finish this. Again, the post had nothing to do with the Pershing article; Auntie E was trying to bolster support for "Genesis Creation myth", by using my position that the word "nigger" should not be removed. I discussed this on her talk page. OberRanks is the only one edit warring, as he returned something 3 times, that a) had nothing to do with the article, and b) that he promised not to return. I have been extremely cordial in reference to the Pershing debate. I have worked dilligently on the talk page to reach consensus, and have refrained from editing the article itself in the meanwhile. OberRanks made false accusations of sockpuppetry against me on an administrator's talk page. When I got justifibly angry about this, he returned to his childishness, as a "premtive strike".Mk5384 (talk) 17:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You did NOT tell me you removed my post, nor was I told about this report. I would like it put back please. Can I do that? Auntie E. (talk) 18:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * FWIW, Mk5384, I did not post to that talkpage to "bolster support for "'Genesis creation myth'" in the title. If you had paid attention, you'd have seen I support the change to "narrative." Auntie E. (talk) 18:17, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Those comments look perfectly valid to me and I see no reason to remove them and certainly not to edit war over their presence. If there is a problem with the, then it should be discussed calmly rather than summarily removing them. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   18:25, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * OberRanks did the edit warring; not I. However, the original user has posted it again. I have left it there, and rebutted it.Mk5384 (talk) 18:42, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Rihanna fan proving problematic and ignoring constant warnings
I believe User:Iluvrihanna24 is too attached to Rihanna(i.e. a massive fan) and is therefore refusing to take head of advice and warnings. Rather than providing the 10+ individual diffs to show all of the warnings he/she has recieved about editing rihanna articles i have simply provided a link to his talk page User talk:Iluvrihanna24 where an extensive number of warnings have been given for a wide range of editing offenses included sourcing bad charts, adding unsourced information and going against WP:notability (music). Here are some examples of myself or other users having to remove unsourced info or undo disruptive edits from this user:April 1, April 3 which was removed here, April 9, April 10-11, April 11, April 12, April 13, April 14, April 25 (1). I'm not sure what kind of sanction would be appropriate but i'm sure that repeated addition of unsourced information, edit warring over unverifiable content, additional of unreliable sources and repeated addition of WP:BADCHARTS requires some sort of administrator intervention. Lil-unique1 (talk) 16:14, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Just to update, less than an hour after removing his most recent addition of unsourced information he/she has re-added the information with an unverified twitter source April 25 (2) and is clearly now experessing WP:OR.Lil-unique1 (talk) 17:10, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

sorry! i didnt know that twitter was a bad source. i do apologise. i do try and add a reliable source to my information i add but i will be more careful and think before i act. Sorry for any inconvenience caused. (By the way i am a very big Rihanna fan!) Iluvrihanna24 (talk) 17:26, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Iluvrihanna24, for the future it would be good to respond to warnings and get some sort of dialog going with people who are trying to give you advice. It'll avoid them having to make reports like this. Communication is important here. Equazcion  ( talk ) 17:32, 25 Apr 2010 (UTC)


 * I think a block in this case would be harsh and heavy handed. Perhaps Iluvrihanna24 could agree to use the talk page function more often and remember to consult WP:record charts, WP:notability (music), wp:albums, WP:songs, WP:crystal etc. I had left several warnings about twitter in the past and whenever myself or others revert your edits we always say why in the edit summary. I think if you agree to use an WP:edit summary and follow the protocols above. we can agree that this was a case of lack of communication?Lil-unique1 (talk) 19:50, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Relisting at AfD
I think somebody should go through and check the relistings that User:Mono made at AFD. Just spot checking them, I think most of them could have been closed. There are a few that are on their 3rd or 4th relisting---if consensus can't be reached after 2 or 3 previous relistings, then close it. There are others where the consensus seems pretty clear, but they were relisted. Two different people have contacted Mono about his relistings User_talk:Mono and User_talk:Mono. Normally I would simply wait for his return to respond, but at the top of his page he has a note indicating that he is on a long wikibreak. Since he is on a long wikibreak, I wanted to bring it here to have somebody else take an objective look at his relistings. Since I nominated 2 of the articles he relisted, I don't think it would be appropriate for me to act on this subject. Here are Mono's contributions [].--- Balloonman  NO! I'm Spartacus! 18:47, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * He also NAC'd some AfDs that weren't re-listed. I've closed three of the re-lists and also re-closed one of the others, as it clearly wasn't in line with consensus in the AfD. Others have closed ones that were re-listed excessively as no consensus. Black Kite (t) (c) 19:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's what I thought, but since I was involved in at least two of them, I wanted to let somebody else act.--- Balloonman  NO! I'm Spartacus! 20:04, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Blocked user abusing talk page editing
is abusing the privilege of editing his/her own user talk page, so I am requesting that the block settings be changed so that the user cannot edit the talk page. NotAnonymous0 did I err?|Contribs 19:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps he was locked in a time capsule or something. That or his TARDIS malfunctioned :) –MuZemike 21:34, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Issues with Anti-Satellite Weapon system
For the past few days, Yattum and I have had some disagreements with regards to which countries should be included on the list for this project. I'm afraid I don't understand Yattum's rationale and it appears that he's just come on the page and randomly started removing information without attempting to form a consensus. It's also important to note that this information has been there for months and no one else editing the page has had any particular issues with it. Yattum claims that making this claim goes against WP:Crystal Ball but I'm not so sure it does as numerous sources have stated that the country is actively developing the components for this system. I didn't post a date as it would be premature but I do think that the country warrants inclusion on the list as it is developing the components for such a system and has actively announced this. I did note that the country did not have a formal project as of yet but the system is under development. I also noted on the disccusion page that I would be perfectly open to including any other countries but I was unable to find any information about other planned ASAT weapons.

Thanks, Vedant (talk) 18:34, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

The article can be found here.
 * has been blocked for blatantly violating 3RR after being warned, but Vedant is not innocent here, I request that another administrator review his behavior and issue sanctions accordingly if they are warranted. -MBK004 01:26, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

User:AboutFaace
Something should be done. This user is edit-warring on Tim Duncan, insisting that he is a center, despite the NBA denoting that he is a forward. He kept reverting even though he is been told on the article's talk page not to change the player's position. I came across this user because Tim Duncan is on my watchlist. I warned AboutFaace about 3rr. But he resorted to disruption by reverting my legitimate edit on another article and leaving abusive comment on my talk. Based on the way he behaves even after several warnings, I feel that perhaps something should be done. As of now, he hasn't violate 3rr yet.— Chris! c / t 05:32, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅. Blocked for edit warring. That was a pretty clear-cut case.  In the future, you can report such problems to WP:ANEW rather than here for processing.  -- Jayron  32  05:57, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Admin User:Shii: restoration/wheelwarring and incivility
Shii is a longtime Wikipedia volunteer and administrator yet he has been acting in a way that I feel is inappropriate to his position. He has misused his restoration tool on several pages. Kalki Bhagavan was deleted unanimously due to this AfD, yet was recently restored by Shii with the summary "undo a really dumb deletion". Shii is also wheel-warring on Talk:Oneness University, twice restoring the history of the page when it had been deleted before (by AfD and by CSD as a recreation of deleted material - see page log). Shii has not attempted to engage in discussion with any of the deleting administrators, nor has he bothered to go to deletion review. When confronted on his talkpage, Shii responded flippantly. To me this incident appears as an abuse of Shii's restoration tool, and his communication habits in response to an attempted discussion are not anywhere close to the level of civility expected of administrators. Shii's questionable talk page behaviour was discussed on this board back in February, so this issue is nothing new.

I'm not really sure if this is the proper place to post, since an RFC/U was discussed in the last posting, but I'm seeking some sort of a quick consensus that Shii's talk page behaviour is out of line for an administrator justifying his actions and I'd like to get an admonishment for him not to use his tools in an inappropriate manner.  Them From  Space  22:43, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow dude, you haven't brought up a single issue with the article itself. Instead you've been whinging at me over technicalities with no apparent meaning, and when I told you to bug off you took it here, still with no meaning. Okay, if you want a response to these wikilawyer issues, I'll give you one: it is now 2010, not 2008. Both the AfD and the prior ANI incident you link to took place in 2008. It's not my job to bring you up to the present day, you have to do that yourself. Let me know if you want to work on an encyclopedia, I'll talk to you more politely when you show the scarcest amount of evidence for that. Cheers, Shii (tock) 02:01, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I didn't see that the last ANI was in 2008, although there are still problematic comments on your talk page right now. My apologies for linking to that. But your dismissive response toward the rest of the criticism is precisely the issue. Courtesy and civility go a long way and as an administrator you need to be more approachable and respectful of other editors. I still would like to see what other editors think of this and your out-of-procedure page restorations.  Them From  Space  02:13, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, okay, I'm being a dick. I need to conquer my trolling instinct, so I'm sorry about that. I still would like to see some criticism you have made of the article itself, which I restored so that I could add useful citations. Shii (tock) 02:19, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Shii, don't be a dick ;-). How about moving the article to your userspace so you can work on it.  When you've added enough citations you can put it back in mainspace.  (Actually I haven't looked at the article or the afd, so don't know if there's any other issues with it).  69.228.170.24 (talk) 07:06, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

No opinion on the behavior of Shii or the current state of Kalki Bhagavan but the original AFD was a poster child for WP:ATA IMHO. A "vague wave" rationale, some WP:JNN delete !votes, one WP:IDONTLIKEIT and only one !voter mentioned the word "sources". I can see how that might be viewed as "really dumb" but still, that's not a phrase that should be seen in the article's logs. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 04:03, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Err? confused
This account or IP address is currently blocked since 2009. Latest edit today? How does that happen? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 08:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * He can edit his own talk page. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:49, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm. I thought that had been revoked as well for abuse. Oh wait -- that was page-protection, not block. I'll take it to RPP. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 08:51, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Apparently you succeeded, as the IP is now prevented from editing his talk page. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:26, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Block and forget?
Shouldn't User talk:ADPCareers been unblocked after he posted his request for a name change? Or is block and forget the new anti-corporate policy? (Besides CSD G11 scattershot.) Pcap ping  08:47, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That is unfortunate. The user accidentally copied the {{tlx| part of the unblock request, which essentially kept it from showing up on anybody's radar screen, and I fear it must have escaped User:NawlinWiki's attention, as well.  I've corrected it on the user's behalf.  It looks like they intend to edit in an area where they have a declared conflict of interest, so I'll try to keep a close eye and assist them with working within WP:COI if I can.  But the Automatic Data Processing article could use some work, and so long as it's kept neutral, I hope they'll still be interested in contributing.  <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  09:03, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

HalfShadow blocked for BLP violations on Don Murphy
<div class="boilerplate metadata discussion-archived" style="background-color: #f5f3ef; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px solid #AAAAAA;">
 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.



I have blocked the above user for seven days for trolling a living person. If wikipedia is really going to insist that it will write about living people against their will, then it must ensure its editors do so in a courteous and respectful way, even if the subject doesn't respond in kind. Remember we trod on their toe, and insist that we can because we are simply recording facts.

I went to have words with HalfShaddow about this unacceptable edit "We should put the image back, just to piss him off. Murphy's funny when he's all worked up" only to find he'd acted on his threat and uploaded another unflattering image of the subject and edit warred to keep it in the article.

Is wikipedia to be trusted with writing about people who don't want written about? If it claims it is, then vendettas, trolling, responding in kind, must be deemed absolutely unacceptable.--Scott Mac 19:06, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Like I noted above, if the article is perfectly courteous and just describes what the person has done, we have no reason to abide by a request to remove it. It does the person no harm for it to be there and, I would think, actually brings them some amount of more fame. However, you are right, we should not (and do not) allow vendettas, trolling, or anything of that nature. I am hoping that this will be dealt with swiftly. Silver  seren C 19:09, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I was discussing blocks for BLP vios earlier with another editor. Vandalism on BLPs should be treated with an instant block, and for other issues (such as mocking the subject) the perpetrator should be subjected to a warning, and then a block if the behavior continues. I am disturbed by the comments left by HalfShadow on the AN/I discussion, who seems to be treating it as a game rather than a serious project. A block is spot-on, especially as there were issues such as edit warring over the image.  Aiken   &#9835;   19:13, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree, perfectly good block, HalfShadow deliberately inflamed an already unpleasant situation because they thought it would be funny. Now they have a week to laugh about it. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:29, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * He is asking for an unblock on his talk page if people wish to comment.--Scott Mac 19:35, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Just for context the fallout from poking Murphy with a stick is absolutely not restricted to those doing the poking. Any person on Wikipedia with any past dealings with this article or any of the users of Murphy's forum is likely to be considered "fair game" for retaliation. Deliberate provocation is not just stupid, it is likely to lead to active harassment of others. We should never troll article subjects, ever, but Murphy is just about the worst choice of target. I endorse this block. Guy (Help!) 20:01, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

That photo is unsuitable for a formal biography, especially a contested one. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 19:40, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've declined the unblock request, but I would imagine he'll keep trying. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:41, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Support the block, for what was a deliberate attempt to further annoy an upset BLP subject by uploading what was likely a copyrighted image. Off2riorob (talk)
 * I am interested in why you are defending him so much, when he has made legal threats and harassed numerous people in real life, threateningly so. Silver  seren C 19:46, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thats one of the things that I am interested in, the protection of living people related to our articles. Off2riorob (talk) 20:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant. We don't allow wikipedia to be used as a revenge platform. The only possible defense of keeping an unwanted BLP is that we aare fair and dispassionate about the subject.--Scott Mac 19:49, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I never said otherwise and I do believe that the image should not be in the article whatsoever. I'm just concerned about Off2riorob's comments both here and on the above ANI discussion, as he is defending Don Murphy a lot. It seems kind of...strange... Silver  seren C 19:53, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec)Good block. The fact that the article subject has behaved atrociously does not give us license to respond in kind.  HalfShadow's actions, at best, demonstrate very poor judgement.  At worst, his behaviour will encourage further harrassment of an innocent third party. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:57, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A quick correction: There was no edit warring going on, HalfShaddow uploaded a new image and put it in the article, once, and that's it. Just for the record. --Conti|✉ 19:46, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * For what that may be, his comment in the previous ANI discussion makes it clear that he put it back for a vindictive reason. Silver  seren C 19:49, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree with that. The image seemed to be taken from a quick Google search as well, without any regard for licensing or copyright issues. --Conti|✉ 20:02, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Unblock declined and block endorsed for copyvio alone; "the whole copyright status thing defies me" is not an appropriate reaction to an inquiry about the copyright status of content one contributes.  Sandstein   20:22, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * AGF about the copyright stuff (newbie mistakes with image uploads and copyright are extremely common), but the person's approach to biographies is no good. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 20:40, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, he knows enough about image copyvio to tag it when he sees it (admins only, sorry). I support the block, but would think it might be appropriate to shorten it if there's some plausible sign that he gets why this was all a bad idea...unless there's a history of this kind of thing of which I'm unaware. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:47, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * @Moonriddengirl, there sure is a history of him trying to piss people off. Trust me. I support a block per the above reasons.-- White Shadows you're breaking up 20:49, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * On the pure face of it (i.e. not knowing or taking into account the background White Shadows refers to), shortening or lifting the block seems reasonable if HalfShadow agrees to stay away from BLP's for a while (until getting better attuned to the current editing culture around them) and be more careful about copyrighted images. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 20:56, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but I'm going to have to oppose that. Just a look at the guy's block log shows that he has not learned anything from trolling like acts. If you want more evidense from me just ask.-- White Shadows you're breaking up 21:02, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The user is currently venting which will result in nothing positive at all, so for now i think it is best if the block stays in place. This is the fourth block, with a previous block on the same grounds 5 months ago. That one was cut short so therefor i think that this one should run its week-long course, after which the talk page should be unprotected to see if Shadow wishes to come back. If he can file a reasonable request then i support unblocking. I could accept the rationale that he wished a better image, but seeing his comment and the strange comment on copyvio's i find it hard to believe. Excirial ( Contact me, Contribs ) 22:21, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

And now, "Like I even care anymore. Die in a fire, the lot of you.".  Aiken   &#9835;   21:14, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Let that go, it's just venting. Not a reason to lengthen anything. (but certainly not evidence of a need to shorten yet, either)... ++Lar: t/c 21:18, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Too late, Sandstein did the deed. (Not that I'm bothered by the comment, as you say, he's just venting, but still, evidence he's not at all ready for a shortened block).  Aiken   &#9835;   21:19, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * In view also of his previous blocks for disruptive incivility, I have indefinitely blocked the editor for this. It's simply inexcusable.  Sandstein   21:20, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I cannot endorse that extension at this time. He's venting. Let him/her vent. The week off should let calm return. I am not going to undo unilaterally but I would ask that you reconsider. (I do endorse the original week and see nothing meriting reduction of it at this time) ++Lar: t/c 21:26, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Quick compromise? Keep it indef and review in week to see if there is any indication that the editor has reconsidered their stance? If not, then indef stays until they do. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:34, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that would be a good solution.   Will Beback    talk    21:45, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I was going to suggest revoking the user's talk page access for a week, then warning the user that his next disruptive act would definitely result in an indef-block. But I'm willing to endorse the above idea. -- SoCalSuperEagle ( talk ) 21:58, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Concur, FWIW.  Tide  rolls  21:53, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * As do I. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 22:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Previous block was cut short, so let this one run its course and see what happens (Anyone else taking a note to unblock the page after a week?). Excirial ( Contact me, Contribs ) 22:23, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No comment on a shorter block, but I think an indefinite block is excessive. Everyking (talk) 02:36, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Lar: it is generally understood that we do not lengthen blocks (and certainly not jump them up to indefinite) for individuals sounding off on their talk page after being blocked. Let's also not forget that there was some poking going on after the block was placed. I'm not sure what value there is in 'letting the indef stand and seeing how he responds'; I think the week should be re-instated (perhaps with talk page privileges revoked) – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 11:59, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * So... ??? Lift the indef and set back to the rest of the remaining original week? ++Lar: t/c 17:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It does not appear he is taking any ownership of the block as I suggested to him . His subsequent comments are hopefully simply more sounding off and he will come back and issue a suitable unblock request at the end of the week. – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 12:51, 26 April 2010
 * Indefinite, as in until he shows he understand the problem. Sounds fair. I emailed him some more information about the background, which may or may not help. Guy (Help!) 17:08, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, that (as also expressed by LessHeardvanU above) was my intention in placing the indefinite block. Indefinite does not mean infinite, but it means as least as long until the user convinces us that they understand why their conduct (BLP, copyvio, wishing other human beings to die in a fire) is problematic and also convince us that this will not happen again. And with this block log it will need a lot of convincing.  Sandstein   17:31, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And now I will need even more convincing: "And I would ask that certain people breathe a sigh of relief that there is a country's distance between us.". I do not think that this user needs to be unblocked any time soon.  Sandstein   17:33, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Evidently, he's still angry over this situation. Perhaps it might be prudent to shut down his user talk page for at least the next few days. -- SoCalSuperEagle ( talk ) 17:43, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that "Indefinite does not mean infinite", but do we really need to have the editor to admit he was wrong under such a pressure as facing an "indefinite" block? What such an admission would be worth? IMO it will be better to work with the editor gently, and to help them to really realize that what they did was wrong, if not in their own eyes then in the eyes of others. Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 18:36, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Lar and Everyking. I think this extension is excessive and really ought to be cut back. "Indefinite is not infinite" is a phrase we really ought to do without: it makes the idea of an indefinite block a seem like a mild little thing which is absolutely not from a psychological perspective. We ignore that far too easily. Frankly, I think we're way too block-happy on matters like this. Ranting on one's talk page is dickish, but it's not screwing with any articles. Making blocks that are obviously going to be controversial (and I can't fathom how anyone could not know it would be controversial) over a talk page rant strikes me as needless drama-stirring, whether intentionally or not. (Referring to the extension, not the original block.) Heimstern Läufer (talk) 08:02, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

"Unflattering" photos?
Since when has a picture being "flattering" or not had anything to do with anything? If you want to argue licensing, that's one thing. But a photo being "unflattering" shouldn't even be on the table unless there's a better one available that's not being used. Consider this one File:Tara Leigh Patrick cropped.jpg of Carmen Electra, which around 3 years ago was the main photo on her page until something better came along, and even then this one was retained in the article for awhile, despite the fact she looks like a witch, or at least "something the cat dragged in" as Mom would say. Why? Because it was free, and that trumps "unflattering". Or so I was told at the time. What has changed since then? Are we now concerned with getting not only free but also "flattering" user snapshots? If so, we had best wipe out about half the living-person photos on this website. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:55, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the issue here is deliberate baiting. It looks like he knew it would bug (er, bother :)) the guy and set out to do so as quickly as possible, without even caring about the copyright problem he created. We don't have to use only subject-approved images, but such behavior (if that's what it was) certainly doesn't cast Wikipedia in a good light. It's kind of not in the spirit of WP:BLP to deliberately enrage subjects. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 22:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd like to know how this photo File:Don Murphy (cropped).jpg is so much worse than the Carmen Electra photo, noted above, which was considered perfectly acceptable somehow. I can understand, somewhat, the argument for a block, although it seems there's a bit of double standard here, considering how long it can take to banish editors that are 50 or 100 times more disruptive. But the argument about "flattering" is invalid, and even the claim that the photo is "unflattering" is a matter of opinion. Copyright is really the only issue that should be on the table here. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:25, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Like was stated in the beginning of this section, this edit shows that he knew exactly what he was doing when he put the image back in. This block has nothing to do with the image itself, per se, but the intent behind it when it had already been made clear that it shouldn't be added to the article. Silver  seren C 22:28, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter to us what the picture looks like (though the subject took offense). The only thing being considered now is its copyright, no one is saying that unflattering is the reason why it should be removed. Silver  seren C 22:30, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Then if any admin labeled the photo "unflattering", he should strike that comment, as it is absolutely misleading and irrelevant to the discussion. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Bugs: What has changed since then? We are more sensitive to BLP issues now, and the off-wiki effects of our content. We can't rely on eventualism in this sort of article any more.  Are we now concerned with getting not only free but also "flattering" user snapshots?  Our photos should adhere to the neutral point of view policy just like everything else in the encyclopedia.  That means if we are writing a formal biography of someone, we should use photos representative of the kind you'd expect to see in a mainstream formal biography, especially if the article or photo is contested.  If so, we had best wipe out about half the living-person photos on this website. Yes maybe.  Perhaps a lot of the articles too. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 23:20, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that the issue of the photograph being flattering or unflattering is a side issue. The subject clearly knew he was being photographed, so it's not as if he was caught in a private moment picking his nose or something like that. He's simply smiling for a camera.   Will Beback    talk    23:22, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're right. And the IP is dead wrong about any need to use "flattering" photos. If it's free, and it's not horrible or obscene or gross, it's fair game. Until wikipedia expands its "fair use" policy to square with the 21st century, we are stuck with these amateurish photos, and "unflattering" is an irrelevant argument. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:36, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No we're not stuck with amateurish or any other kind of photos. Just like any other sourcing, if a photo is not up to our standards, we discard it.  We're not stuck with it. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 23:45, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * We're all amateurs here. There is no practical way that we can depend solely on professional, free-licensed photos. The only policy I'm aware of that's applicable is WP:BLP, which says: Images of living persons should not be used out of context to present a person in a false or disparaging light. There is a significant difference between "disparaging" and "unflattering", and I wouldn't even say the photo in question is unflattering. Not everyone looks like Brad Pitt.   Will Beback    talk    00:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree. Not all of us move in exalted circles such that we can hob-nob with notable people, and therefore it tends to the result that "amateur" photos tend not to be particularly well-composed, well-lit, or even have the consent of the subject; however, in a public venue, copyright, and as far as I'm concerned, all other rights, rest with the photographer and not the subject. That is one limitation we have here, and if notable subjects of articles are unhappy with their images, they are quite at liberty to make available to us a copyright-free image. Rodhull  andemu  00:14, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Baseball Bugs and Rodhullandemu seem to think it's a catastrophe if we have an article that doesn't contain a photo, and that we should use inappropriate photos if we can't find appropriate ones. I don't see it that way.  We are fine having articles without photos.  I don't think that the policy Will Beback quoted is the right one to apply to this situation, and it may flat-out need revision so that the photos (especially the ones presented as main biographical portraits in the article, maybe less so in a thumbnail gallery at the bottom of the article) in our biographies are up to neutral mainstream standards. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 00:20, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Inappropriate" according to whom? Here is a professional, "mainstream" photo of the subject, taken at a movie opening, where he presumably would know photographers would be present. It doesn't appear any more flattering than the photo in question. Both show the subject's appearance without putting him in a "false or disparaging light". Again, I don't think the quality of the photo is a significant issue in this dispute.   Will Beback    talk    00:26, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * My name is Gaston Dominguez, I own Meltdown Comics a big shop in Los Angeles. Don Murphy is one of my best friends.  The photo you are referring to was taken at my shop, not at a movie premiere.  It was a party for the comic book Y THE LAST MAN which features a monkey in it.  The photo was paid for by Meltdown.  The photographer had no right to post it anywhere, much less to allow it to be edited.  I discussed this with Don's lawyers on Friday and have tried to track down the lady who took the photos of the event for us to have the photo removed.  I emailed the author who posted the photo, Erik Kraft and asked him to removed it.  His reply was "Murphy has to learn."  Thank you for listening to me.BassandAle (talk) 04:08, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * BassandAle, this is Erik Kraft. Let me reiterate: I am not the wikipedia user "Erik" and I want nothing to do with this insanity. Also, I have received no emails from you. If I had, I would have told you I have no idea what you are talking about. If you want to email me, I'm at krrraft@gmail.com. If you want to call me, Don has my number--he called me 2 times yesterday. This is completely insane. Leave me out of it, I'm not this "Erik" you're after.


 * We have several separate issues going on here. The photo was hosted by Wikicommons. I'm not an admin there, but it looks it's been deleted. If not, someone should finds a connection there to deal with the copyright issue. Aside from the issue of a hired photographer posting free version, the issue of taking pictures which are "defamatory" might be part of his or her responsibility.
 * There is also the issue of the legal and telephone harassment of "Erik Kraft". It really needs to stop. If a photographer hired for the event by the hosts of the party posted those pictures with a free license, then no one who reuses those photos according to that license is at fault.
 * Finally there's the issue of WP:BLP and how it should handle people like this subject. That's a discussion better held on the relevant policy talk page.   Will Beback    talk    08:29, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Forgive my writing since I am not an native English speaker. I don't believe anyone including Don called the photo defamatory. It was a private photo at a private event taken on private property paid for by my store.  It was edited by a Wikipedia author so that it became a photo of Don alone.  His wife and everyone else was edited out of it.  Don had told me, with three movies getting ready to shoot, that he hadn't daily monitired the article like he used to and then was stunned that a previous rival had posted a photo like that.  If you go over to WikiReview they have strong evidence that the two guys are the same guy.  I don't think knowing Don that he would legally harass anyone- I am certain he is suing the right people.  As far as telephone harassment, I think calling and asking someone who is likely the right person why they were doing this is harassment.  Unless the Chicago cops arrested Don last night.  Finally, look at the main smoking gun.
 * After being id on Don's site, Erik goes and completely rewrites every article that links to the site, calling it an attack site which it isn't. Stop feeling the pain of this Erik guy- he did it to see if he teach Don a lesson.BassandAle (talk) 16:22, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If the photos is not defamatory, and if it was released under a free license by the photographer (who may or may not have had the right to do so), then it's hard to see what legal action could be taken against someone who used it in a biographical article. If BassandAle is a party to this legal case against a Wikipedia editor or the Wikimedia Foundation then it'd be best if he stops editing here until the case is resolved, per WP:NLT. If BassandAle is the person who hired the photographer then that would presumably be true.
 * Regardless of that matter, harassing someone for posting a legitimate, non-defamatory photograph seems unnecessary. I suggest that all parties to this conflict should ponder the Golden Rule, and treat each other as they'd like to be treated.   Will Beback    talk    21:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I actually agree with you and the Golden Rule. I grew up in Chile and do onto others is the way to go.  Talking with Don, however, this thing goes deep and dates back to the first Transformers movie being announced after which as am I told ( I didn't follow it, actually) children would show up here and author his article so that it read that he raped them and their childhood.  As I was told, this caused huge embarassment at at least one studio meeting because the executive took what he read as truthful.  Ever since then he has asked to no longer be on your site but you refuse.  Last time it was people attacking his wife's article with maleviolence.   From speaking to him yesterday he truly thought it was under control, it had lied basically dormant for months and he hadn't been focused on the site at all.  It is clear that the Erik guy was hoping to start things up again and then he went and did so. I am not suing anyone and I believe the legal action is for hurt to reputation.  I'm not a lawyer.  But I have a radical idea.  Remove the article.  Watch- not a single person in the universe will care.  Final! BassandAle (talk) 21:42, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * How can someone hurt Murphy's reputation by posting a non-defamatory photograph commissioned by you? I'm not condoning Erik's actions or his motives. But threatening lawsuits and instigating harassment is out of proportion.   Will Beback    talk    21:48, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Like I said sir I don't think it is the photo. He liked the photo in private. He doesn't want to be on your site. He's willing to actually pay to be OFF the site. It is because he doesn't trust what has happened in the past. I know Don well enough that he didn't harrass the guy. He's too slick for that. But it has driven him crazy. For several years authors would put the Tarantino fight in there, which happened in the late 90s and lasted 2 minutes, like it was a big deal. You must have this problem with a lot of people, no?BassandAle (talk) 21:52, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, so it isn't about the photo after all? The one that he complained about? This is getting complicated. As for the Tarantino/Murphy fight, it was reported in legitimate news sources. Is Murphy suing them? Yes, we occasionally have the subjects and supporters of biography subjects seek to hide embarrassing but true incidents from their lives. What value would a biography be if it only reported the things that the subject likes to hear? Readers can go to the subject's website to get his opinion of himself. The job of Wikipedia is to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view.
 * Anyway, if even the [claimed] owner of the photograph says this dispute isn't about the photo then I think we can close this part of the thread.   Will Beback    talk    22:04, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Wiil, about the previous pic, you commented, He's simply smiling for a camera. but that photo is not just him smiling for the camera, it is cropped and it is actually a kind of comedy picture, so cropping it is a bit deceptive, here is the picture pre crop, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Don_Murphy.jpg Off2riorob (talk) 00:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * So? He's smiling for the camera, which is what I wrote. The photo isn't disparaging and I don't think the quality of the photo represents any kind of policy violation. Let's avoid this distraction from the actual issues.   WillBeback    talk    00:49, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's not the actual issue. I was just saying that smile for the camera is saying to me, hey, I am shaking hands with a monkey type comedy smile. I don't think it really actually violates any policy although I have seen BLP used to remove pics that are poor representations of the subject In this case we have additional issues with the subject but usually a discussion and consensus on the talkpage would have sorted it out. We had a huge multiple discussion about the climate change denier Mr Monkton and a poor representation of him that some editors wanted to add and others did not and in the end the subject sent a better one. I am of the position that nowadays we should not add poor representations of living people just because of a desire to add a pic, any pic. Off2riorob (talk) 01:28, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If you recall, I'm the editor who started that Monckton photo discussion because I thought the photo portrayed the subject in a false light. Briefly, it made him look bug-eyed while other photos taken at the same time and place, by the same photographer, did not. However I don't think this Murphy photo has the same problems. It isn't distorted and he looks more or less the same in other photos. I think we should use the best available photos that don't portray subjects in a false or disparaging light. The problem here isn't with the policy.   Will Beback    talk    01:39, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with you, this is not anywhere near as poor a representation as Mr Monktons was. Looking at a few pictures of the subject they are all pretty much of a similar appearance, without the subjects involvment there may well have been a consensus to include the picture. Off2riorob (talk) 01:48, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Please don't misrepresent something I haven't said. My preference is that this encyclopedia should be informative, and images are useful in relieving blocks of text and for recognitional purposes. If there is no free image available to illustrate an article, so be it, and we lose out on those purposes. It might be unfortunate, but not catastrophic. That's all. Rodhull  andemu  00:37, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think "false or disparaging light" or "knew photographers would be present" are relevant standards for something like this. The Life Magazine photo Will Beback linked to is also inappropriate for a neutral biography portrait (it might be ok as part of a mood piece in Life Magazine, but that's not what a Wikipedia biography is supposed to be).  I know that we're sloppier about this in some articles than others (I just edited Robert Harper (computer scientist), which has a terrible photo), but in a disputed article where we're being super-strict about sourcing, that includes being strict about neutrality of the photo.  The article covers a lot of events related to the subject's notability, so the photo should not create undue weight in the article for what could be called an informal point of view that emphasizes a particular instant.   That's why formal portraits (as found in, say, our articles about politicians) look the way they do.   69.228.170.24 (talk) 00:50, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Using only flattering photos would not be neutral. You don't seem happy with either amateur or professional photos, so apparently the only standard you'll accept are formal, retouched portraits. Your views of the community standards would have more weight if you'd edit using your existing account, or get one. While IPs are welcome to comment, folks who've only been editing for 24 hours can't be assumed to know what they're talking about.   Will Beback    talk    00:56, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you really think I write like someone who's only been around here for 24 hours? I'm on a dynamic address and it reset several times in the past few days because of network issues (I noted an earlier address in the Obituarist thread).  Anyway, I agree that flattering photos are also not neutral.  We should not use a photo (even a professional quality one) of Murphy in a tuxedo triumphantly receiving a filmmaking award as the main biography photo, for example, if it doesn't representatively summarize the entirety of notable events documented in the article.  It would be ok to use the photo further down in the article in connection with well-sourced and properly weighted text about the event.  So yes, for main portraits of formal biographies (which is what this is), formal portraits are what we want.   WT:BLP or WT:NPOV are probably better places to discuss this though, now that we've drifted from the ANI report topic. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 01:13, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As I said, your opinions on what "we allow" would have more weight if other editors knew your history with Wikipedia. I don't think that a policy requiring that photos be neither flattering nor unflattering will work as that is such a subjective standard. A requirement that only authorized, formal portraits may be used in infoboxes is also likely to be unworkable. (Aren't formal portraits usually as flattering as possible?). The problem isn't with the existing policy or with the photo used. It's with the way a couple of editors and a difficult subject have interacted.   Will Beback    talk    01:24, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * We're using the terms flattering/unflattering with multiple meanings causing confusion. The neutral point of view (NPOV) means one that represents the aggregate of all sources related to a subject, and the photo should be neither flattering nor unflattering compared with the NPOV.  In some cases, the aggregate of sources may itself be unflattering in the other ("external") meaning of the term--for example, our article about Osama bin Laden is quite negative, which reflects the NPOV because the aggregate of sources about him are the same way.  Formal portraits generally try to make the subject look good, but despite that, they are what one normally expects to find in a neutral biography, so in that way they reflect the NPOV.  They are not as flattering as possible--imagine what opponents of Barack Obama would say if someone tried to replace the formal portrait currently in his article, with one of him receiving the Nobel Peace Prize.  No we shouldn't eliminate every non-formal portrait from every infobox, any more than we should delete every unsourced but uncontroversial fact from every article.  But, in disputed BLP's, we sometimes have to resort to a style where we really do attempt to source every single fact (you might remember the one about Daniel Brandt that someone mentioned).  In those kinds of articles (which, again, is what this is), choices of photos also come under heightened scrutiny. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 01:49, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I search for free images quite often to improve celebrity articles. When I first started, I did upload some "unflattering" photos, mainly because authors didn't know that much about Wikipedia and didn't want their quality images to be included here. However, as I got more and more permissions, the quality of images continued to improve. I don't think that we need to remove an image that doesn't have great quality just because we don't like it. Some of the images I received permission for the subject of the article didn't like. Instead of doing what Murphy did, they issued an image under a free license (for example, File:RobertGouletMay07.jpg was recently replaced with File:Robert Goulet photo.jpg from the late actor's wife; File:LeilaniDowdingSept02.jpg was replaced after Dowding's request to instead use File:Leilani Dowding publicity shot.jpg; and several images uploaded for Wiig's article resulted in Wiig having her agent add File:Kristen Wiig - Pink shirt, portrait.JPG). Just recently we had a poor image of Stanley Tucci, but after pursuing a better one, a new image has replaced it of much higher quality. If an image is free and does not have the person in a compromising or inappropriate position, then we are better off including it in the off chance that someone can replace it with a better one, even if it is the subject. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 02:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's unreasonable (in fact it comes across as extortion) to demand something like that from a subject who wants the article about himself deleted completely. He has no duty to improve the article.  I'm more sympathetic to your argument if the person wants the article kept but wants the picture removed.  As another angle about neutrality and why I don't like that party photo of Murphy: it has nothing to do with anything documented in the article as making Murphy notable.  Compare that with the famous picture of Albert Einstein writing equations on a blackboard, capturing his notability by depicting him as a theoretical scientist.  So I could live with a photo of Murphy in a director's chair or something like that, depicting him as a movie producer, conveying his notable aspects even if it wasn't a formal portrait.  I guess the theater opening picture from Life Magazine is a little bit better than the party picture in that regard.  69.228.170.24 (talk) 02:11, 25 April 2010 (UTC) Added: the black-and-white photo of Stanley Tucci is interesting.  I wonder if we could improve some other articles by converting color photos to black-and-white like that.  I could make the case that this improves neutrality by decreasing the visual weight assigned to the picture in the context of the article.  And as Paul Simon said in Kodachrome, "everything looks better in black and white".  Maybe I'll try that with the picture of Harper. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 02:19, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There are certainly unresolved issues with how to handle subjects who don't want to have their biographies on Wikipedia. But I don't think that changing the wording on photographs will really address them.   Will Beback    talk    02:25, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not about changing the wording on a photograph, it's about removing the photo (or possibly de-emphasizing it by moving it elsewhere) unless we can rigorously justify its prominence on fundamental editing principles of BLP and neutrality. I don't think your analysis stands up under the hawkish interpretation of BLP and NPOV that I favor.  I agree with you that my interpretation would result in our getting rid of a lot of photos.  I'm simply not bothered by that. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 03:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I mean changing the wording of the policy governing photographs in BLPs. This dispute isn't due to the photograph, it's due to antagonism over the existence of the biography, and they way that is expressed.   Will Beback    talk    04:18, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. Our moral defense for the rude act of publishing a biography of someone who doesn't want to be a subject, is that we go to great lengths to ensure that the article meets the highest standards of sourcing and neutrality and that we present the topic in a respectful and formal professional style.  If the photo is a crappy snapshot, that defense is weakened considerably, at least to me.  So yes, IMO the policy wording should reflect that.  69.228.170.24 (talk) 04:59, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The photo is not so bad, and it's cropped probably because there are non-notable people in the photo, which is a frequent approach to these kinds of photos. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll accept that there are certainly worse ones. I remember the bruhaha about the mug shots of Lisa Nowak that were in her biography for a while.  I changed the word formal to professional above.  69.228.170.24 (talk) 05:29, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This is not about photographs. This is about Don Murphy not wanting anything about him on Wikipedia, prose or image.— Ryūlóng ( 竜龙 ) 03:16, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Regardless, we really shouldn't be antagonizing him further by using the most unflattering photograph we can find, and, frankly, this isn't really a new issue. Someone's just spoken up about it, and I think that's within the spirit of WP:BLP.  If there's some reasonable argument that the photograph is unflattering, and there is, then it really ought to go.  Our goal is a reliably sourced encyclopedic biography.  The photograph is not core to that in almost all cases, so until (or unless) we can get a free one that is more neutral in appearance, we really ought to stick to the prose. <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  08:15, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * He can always provide an image if he cares that much. A free image is a free image. Of course one of him doing something terrible o looking super drunk might be suspect but him hanging out with a smile shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings. I was expecting much worse from reading the comments. It seems fine and if it isn't he can go through the OTRS process. The only argument I see against inclusion is the poorer quality (not him just the background and lighting) or personality rights (I don;t know enough about that sort of thing to know if it is a problem). Cptnono (talk) 08:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * People outside the project shouldn't be required to go through OTRS to force us to get it right. There are a lot of editors here who are saying this photograph is not appropriate for an encyclopedia.  It may not be unanimous, but, frankly, it need not be per WP:BLP: if editors reasonably believe there to be a problem with the content of the article (in this case, a photograph) — and here there are a number of editors of that opinion — then the photograph should be replaced with a more neutral one.  If one is not currently available, we can remove the problematic one and wait for a neutral replacement.  There is no deadline.  <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  09:12, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Define what a "neutral" photo is - and tell me what's wrong with the one in question. Because it looks like any other amateurish snapshot on wikipedia, of which there are thousands. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:24, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Not to mention the fact that we're now told the pictures was taken by a professional photographer. The professional/amateur distinction isn't really helpful in this discussion.   Will Beback    talk    21:25, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't much think the "professional" versus "amateur" distinction is all that relevant, quite frankly. Everybody can take a good photograph, anybody can take a bad photograph.  This happens to be a bad photograph, for various reasons (the technicals of which have been discussed on the talk page of the article).  Do we have a history of having generally poor photographs on this project?  Yes, so much so that The Gray Lady did a story about it.  Does that mean we should stick our heads in the sand and say "Whatever, that's the best we've got"?  Not at all, and especially not on biographies of living people.  <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  23:45, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There's nothing esthetically wrong with that photo. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:58, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A number of other editors disagree with you on that point, as discussed above and elsewhere. <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  00:15, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's strictly a subjective judgment, so numbers don't matter. There's no reason not to include that picture in the article until a better one comes along, or until we change our policy to get away from this obsession against "fair use". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Virtually every editorial judgment we make here is subjective to one extent or another. You may think one fact in a biography is not contentious while other editors may think it is problematic.  That, in fact, is exactly the issue here.  The policy on biographies of living people obviously is geared towards absolutely ensuring that we present neutral content, and that is not limited to the prose itself.  Simply put, WP:BLP essentially allows for a "content veto" of sorts, unless or until consensus says the content should be restored.  There is no consensus here (or at the article's talk page) for the reinsertion of the photograph.  The bottom line is that a number of editors feel the photograph is inappropriate, and that is sufficient, frankly, for the photograph to be removed.  <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  01:33, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Inappropriate" how? Just because someone claiming to be an associate of the subject doesn't like it? You all have done a 180 since 3 years ago, and many ugly photos remain in place based on the older way of thinking. This guy just got singled out because he and/or his buddies raised cain about it, and wikipedia jumped. That is not a promising sign for the future. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:37, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That would be a question better posed on the article's talk page. But, as I said, I don't think the burden is on them to prove to you that it's inappropriate or to try to illustrate to you why it's inappropriate.  I think most other editors have apparently agreed the photograph is not an appropriate choice (whatever their reasons), and that's why the photograph is no longer in the article.  But, again, I think it's time this discussion went back to the article's talk page, with the understanding that a clear consensus would be required to restore the photograph.  <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  01:44, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Bugs—can you name any more BLP articles where 1) the article contains a similarly crappy snapshot of the subject, 2) the subject has persistently demanded that the article (not just the photo) be removed from Wikipedia, and 3) we retained both the article and the photo? Jaes—I think this general topic (use of low-quality photos in disputed BLP's) should probably go to an RFC or policy talkpage, rather than to a the talkpage of a particular article.  I begin to think an RFC would be useful, and if someone opens one then I'll try to participate. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 02:06, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * We haven't retained the picture in the article. See Don Murphy. Whether the photo is "crappy" or not is in the eye of the beholder. As for the presence of the article, newspapers don't delete articles based on the requests of newsmakers. If there is anything incorrect in it then let's fix it. But the photo is not defamatory, and even the [claimed] copyright owner and friend of Murphy says this isn't really about the photo. The mutual antagonism between the subject and editor(s) is the real problem.   Will Beback    talk    02:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Excellent, the picture is gone from the Murphy article. Do you want us to similarly remove comparable pictures from other comparable articles?  If yes, I think we're in agreement.  If not, my request stands for Bugs (or you) to name an article where we kept the picture under such circumstances.  Will, a crappy photo is what it sounds like.  Imagine we have a disputed BLP that is basically accurate, but crappily written in terms of organization, spelling and grammar.  We wouldn't say that its "crappiness is in the eye of the beholder" and we wouldn't say it was the subject's responsibility to fix it.  And we wouldn't accept keeping it in such a state.  We'd fix it ourselves or (if for some reason we couldn't fix it) we'd delete it.  Crappy photos are often unfixable.  That doesn't give them an automatic pass.   69.228.170.24 (talk) 03:13, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Quite simple. If Don Murphy doesn't want an article about him here, he simply travels back in time and becomes a non-notable person. Unfortunately, the laws of physics being what they are, that just isn't going to happen. There are many people who perhaps would prefer not to have articles here, but, er, they went public to push their careers. Tough bun. If Murphy doesn't like his picture here, he can provide a copyright-free picture with which he is happy, or shut the fuck up, and all this flummery is otherwise nonsense. We do not bow to egos here, especially marginal egos. Up to you, Mr Murphy, because what you want ain't gonna be what you get. Rodhull andemu  02:01, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Rodhullandemu, that is absolutely inappropriate. An article subject who wants the article deleted has no more duty to give us a good picture for it, than he does to clean up lousy spelling and grammar in the article.  That cleanup is our job if we are claiming any kind of legitimacy for our practice of retaining articles that the subject wants removed.  We are not paparazzi. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 02:14, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, Rod's comment is appropriate, and 100 percent correct. There is nothing inherently wrong with that photo, but if the subject doesn't like the photo, he could give us a free one to use in its place. He doesn't have to, but he could. His opinion should not matter one iota as to whether the photo currently under discussion should be used. I'm saddened by wikipedia editors cowtowing to that guy, or to anybody. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:23, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't agree that there's nothing inherently wrong with that photo. It's a crappy photo.  Ask any sane person who evaluates photographs whether it's anything other than a crappy photo.  That Murphy likes the photo in less serious contexts than a globally-visible biographical article is irrelevant.  There are lots of photos of me of comparable crappiness that I like just fine in casual contexts, but would consider inappropriate even for my passport, much less something like Wikipedia.  My passport photo is not a fancy studio shot (it was taken at home by my mom), but before it was taken, I spent a minute combing my hair and putting on a decent shirt, etc., and got a much better picture that way.  That's just basically what you have to do to get a reasonable documentary photo (I'll stop using the term "formal"). What this is really about is our goal as a project.  As I see it, we are here to write a professional quality reference work and we often succeed at that with our writing, even though we're not professional writers.  We should aim for similar quality with our photographs, even if we're not professional photographers.  We do have plenty of badly written articles and crappy photos that we keep around on eventualistic principles.  But if there's one direction that WP BLP culture has been moving in the past few years, it's towards no longer accepting eventualism in disputed BLP's.  We require professionalism in the BLP article's text and as I see it, that should also apply to the photos we use in such articles.  If we don't have the ability to get a good photo, that's a WP:COMPETENCE problem on our part, and fixing it is our problem, not the article subject's.  69.228.170.24 (talk) 03:44, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And I don't agree with that assessment of the photo. Certainly it's not the best, but it's in focus and he's not giving us the finger or something. And getting a good photo is not a function of "competence", it's a function of Wikipedia's highly restrictive attitude toward fair-use. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:55, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, if you're saying that we'd get better photos from a more aggressive approach to fair use (which is probably true), then I think you've stopped contesting that the photo is unrepresentative of the photos we'd find in comparable contexts in mainstream sources. In my interpretation of WP:NPOV, we are supposed to follow the mainstream not just in the facts that we document, but also in our writing and presentation style and our quality expectations.  So the unrepresentative photo IMO fails on neutrality grounds, as I've said before.  69.228.170.24 (talk) 05:18, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * How is it "unrepresentative"? Does it not look like him? Does he never actually smile in public? I have to ask because until this debate I had never heard of this guy, let alone seen him. We're taking it on faith that the photo really is him, even. Which brings up another issue I have with snapshots of celebs here, that it is frankly "original research". We're supposed to get sources for information. But the opposite is true of photos - we're supposed to get our own somehow, because of the fair-use taboo, and then we're supposed to take it on faith that the person shown actually is the celebrity. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * On removal of articles, that has been utterly established beyond doubt. To cite a crass example, if Adolf Hitler were still alive, there is no way on earth that we would delete his article simply on his preference. There are many, much weaker examples to hand. In the current case, Mr Murphy has clearly lost the debate as to whether he is worthy of having an article here. If I were he, I might realise that rather than resist this, I would prefer to show myself in the best light possible, and release a copyright-free image that depicts me as I would prefer to be depicted, as opposed to an opportunistic image. Unfortunately, my experience of Mr Murphy is otherwise, as he has already been advised on his own website that he does not get it his own way. The natural alternative, of course, is to have no image of him whatsoever on his article, and that suits me fine; he doubtless has his own conduits for publicity, and doesn't need us to do that for him, even in an objective and encyclopedic sense. Rodhull  andemu  02:32, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * However I, for one, am not convinced Murphy is notable enough that we would not honor opt-out. Producers are much more prevalent than directors, most movies have many. I think we'd be better off without his bio. That he isn't a very nice person has no bearing on that, except that we should be nicer, not meaner. The notability of Murphy perhaps is not best discussed here though. ++Lar: t/c 02:31, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have to disagree that he is not notable, as the producer of Natural Born Killers, a seminal work, amongst others. There are few films comparable to that, and it perhaps stands alone in its genre. As regards violence, it perhaps harks back to the work of Alfred Hitchcock, Straw Dogs, and forwards to the earlier parts of A Clockwork Orange. In filmic terms, however, he is neither Peckinpah nor Kubrick. But it remains that he is notable.  Rodhull  andemu  03:03, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Our picture of Hitler is quite a bit better than that one of Murphy that we're talking about. Hitler was a major public figure and I wouldn't support deleting the article about him if he was alive and requested it, but if its photo were as bad as the photo of Murphy, I'd support getting rid of the photo and keeping the Hitler article without a photo until we could get a better one. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 03:04, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A sure sign that this thread has gone on for too long...   Will Beback    talk    03:09, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Heh, yeah, I wondered about that, but decided that it didn't count as long as it's not another discussion participant who was being compared to Hitler (it's just photos being compared). ;) 69.228.170.24 (talk) 03:15, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That is missing the point, with respect. The issue is whether our article on Don Murphy actually needs an image. Although his notability for our purposes is established, I can't see any reason why it needs to be there. It's not as if he would be mobbed by fans who would have seen his picture here when he walks down Hollywood Boulevard, or any other street, given that he he clearly does not want to be offered gratuitous sex by young girls who have maybe seen his image here or elsewhere, and perhaps imagine that he might be able to deliver some sort of satisfaction. On balance, therefore, I think it prudent as far as we are concerned that we protect this person from unwanted attention by not publishing any image whatsoever of him. Apart from that, we of course also deal with the naked vanity thereby involved. Rodhull  andemu  03:51, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, none of our articles really need photos, but if we had a good photo, the argument for keeping the photo in the article would be a lot stronger. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 04:19, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * How is the lack of visual information helpful to an article? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:26, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * See WP:IINFO. Let me put this another way: we have a fairly well-defined quality standard that we're (in eventualistic terms) theoretically trying to pursue for every article on Wikipedia.  That standard is the featured article criteria, which a few thousand articles have achieved so far.   Let's ignore for a moment the drama aspects of this Murphy article (i.e. forget for now that he's trying to get it deleted) and imagine that we got it up to FA level in all regards except it still has that photo in the infobox, and now we want to run it as the daily FA on Wikipedia's main page, one of the most viewed pages on the internet.  As I see it, presenting that photo on the main page would or should embarass the crap out of the project.  Now our response to BLP drama has generally (in my subjective description, not as an explicitly documented practice) been to make sure that a contested article's sourcing, neutrality, and writing quality is up to FA standards, though not necessarily other aspects like comprehensiveness or the presence of images.  Following that same idea, we can ask: is this image of a quality that we can run on the front page without embarassment?  If not, it's inappropriate for a BLP that the person is arguing with us about. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 06:50, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * We've established that the apparent copyright owner doesn't care about the copyright issue, so issue has been dealt with. He also says that the photo is not defamatory and that the subject likes it, so the issue of whether the photo violates BLP does not seem to be an issue. The photograph is basically adequate, in that it's well-lit and in focus, so it isn't amateurish. In addition, we now know it was taken by a professional photographer. Other photographs, including those taken on the "red carpet" at a movie opening, show that even when he know he'll be photographed for the media he does not appear in designer suits and fancy hairdos. So all of the issues that concern WP policies and guidelines concerning the use of photos have been addressed. What remains is the antagonistic manner in which the Wikipedia editors and the subject have related to each other. I don't think anyone here can condone the actions of any of those involved parties. There is no further administrative action that needs to be taken at this time. Discussions about policy and guideline revisions should be held on more relevant pages. Now can we please close this unproductive thread?   Will Beback    talk    06:55, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Given that, HalfShadow's comment about posting the picture potentially irritating the subject is based on a false assumption and thus is rendered moot. So why is he still blocked? Indef, yet? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:12, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that the thread is no longer appropriate for ANI but I think it could usefully be continued someplace else (it is mostly a policy discussion by now, but a legitimate one). I don't think "subject likes it" as a party snapshot has anything to do with whether it is an appropriate photo for a widely disseminated biographical profile.  They are not the same thing and you are trying to draw a false equivalence. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 07:17, 26 April 2010 (UTC) Added: I will endorse the request to close and I'll try to stop replying here.  If I get energetic I may open a thread at WT:BLP and ask people there to give their views.  If I do that, I will post a pointer here.  Thanks for the discussion--it has been interesting, even though we haven't agreed on much. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 07:27, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec)Then there needs to be a project to review all celeb photographs for "appropriateness" or "encyclopedic" value. Picking on one guy's photograph, when you've seen far worse, while leaving other "unflattering" photos intact, is itself inappropriate. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:29, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I appreciate that Moonriddengirl has now subpaged this, but <sup(I un-subpaged it because) ANI is not the venue to discuss this. The above is quite disorganized. Perhaps someone might initiate an RFC subpage? – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 12:44, 26 April 2010

Brolling?
If we're handing out blocks for trolling/baiting, then this isn't nice from admin DragonflySixtyseven, posting "We should keep him blocked, just to piss him off. HalfShadow's funny when he's all worked up" on HalfShadow's talk page, whether his edit summary of "obviously I'm not serious" is true or not. MickMacNee (talk) 22:30, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's clear, due to the quotes, that he was joking. But, still, it's a rather inappropriate comment. :/ Silver  seren C 22:32, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Then 67 should either strike it or he should be blocked for it. It was perfectly clear to me that HalfShadow was being funny himself. He probably should have been asked to strike that comment, or at least put a smiley on it, and if he refused, then maybe blocked for a week or whatever. But indefing him, for that comment, is absurdly over the top. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:48, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If he was just being funny, then he would have taken no action. It is clear that he was not just being funny because he did put the photo back in, which means that he was trying to make Murphy even more angry, as his comment stated. No, I don't believe there is any confusion at all about whether HalfShadow did this on purpose, it is clear that he did. As for 67, I believe he should remove the comment and be chastised for it, but not blocked. Making a comment is not a blockable offense. Making a comment and then having actions that reinforce the comment and make things worse are. Silver  seren C 22:51, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think someone else has wisely removed 67's comment. HalfShadow was initially blocked for a week and then when he responded angrily he was indefed, which is really a double standard. I can think of other editors that ranted and raved, with all kinds of vile comments and accusations far worse than anything HalfShadow said, and were told, "OK, we'll unblock you this time. Again." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:57, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Without defending DragonFly's comments, which are indeed unnecessary. There's a huge difference between inappropriate banter among wikipedians refering to wikipedians and comments/provocation of living people, who have not chosen to participate in this project. Incivility, baiting and trolling other wikipedians breaches inhouse rules and may disrupt the project, but using wikipedia as a platform to attack, insult, provoke or annoy private individuals may be considered harassment, and certainly serves to bring the project into public disrepute. Our only possible defence for keeping articles on people that don't want them is that we strive to keep them neutral, factual and fair (even if we often fail) - and we strive to do this regardless of our personal or political attitudes to the subject. That defence becomes laughable if we don't slap very hard any wikipedian who steps out of line. How we treat living subjects is not comparable to how we treat pseudonymous volunteers.--Scott Mac 23:04, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with much of what Scott says, but I don't think we can call someone who has created dozens and dozens of accounts people "who have not chosen to participate in this project". The subject has chosen to participate quite often, and has even edited Wikipedia to promote the projects of himself and his family.   Will Beback    talk    02:46, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Is that the subject of this thread?  Tide  rolls  23:09, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The subject of this "thread" is HalfShadow, so...yes? Silver  seren C 23:23, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I just think an indef for this is unjustified. But indef is not infinite, so he could come back in a week or so and post a low-key unblock request. However, if any admin called that image "unflattering", they should strike that, as it's got nothing to do with any wikipedia policy that I'm aware of. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:28, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A photo is either flattering, unflattering, or neutral. A reasonable interpretation of the NPOV spirit is that we can only use the neutral ones.  The photo in question was unsuitable from that perspective. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 23:52, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Just because one, two, or even twenty people believe something to be unflattering does not magically make it so. Truth does not obey mere democracy, and determining an objective "truth" in inherently emotional, right-brained, artistic judgement-call sorta intrinsic-quality-sort-of-a-thing sorta stuff like is so subjective as to be practically beyond our collective reach. To put it another way, a movie is either thoughtful, complete bullocks, or boring. I find Transformers to be somewhere between #2 and #3, but I'm not so naive as to believe that this is in any way an inarguable, irrefutable fact. You seem to believe that your equivalent opinion regarding the flatteringness, or lack thereof, of this picture constitutes an unimpeachable fact of some sort. Your belief in absolutes is quaint, but I find it slightly offensive that you don't even question whether you truly speak for everyone when you preach from your soapbox. Badger Drink (talk) 09:10, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What you call emotional right brained artistic bla bla is what the rest of us call editorial judgment, and we exercise it here all the time. If we can't tell good pictures from bad ones we should get rid of wp:featured images. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 12:30, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Apologies, Silver seren. I should've posted "sub-heading".  I will retire from this discussion as I've become over-invested.  Regards   Tide  rolls  23:27, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * HalfShadow continues to be harassed by characters like this sarcastic IP: How about someone semi-protect his page and keep some of the riff-raff away from it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:34, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Because some admins like seeing people baiting HalfShadow - they know it'll wind him up and he'll say something they can use as justification to keep him blocked. Love to know which logged-out editor was doing the baiting, and what user-rights they've got. DuncanHill (talk) 23:42, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well we know its knot Bugs. Since he is currently logged in and here defending his clone. 68.28.104.229 (talk) 23:48, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The page has since been semi'd, so the riffraff are finding other methods to harass the blocked user. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:01, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I just noticed that an anonymous user tried to post an unblock request at HalfShadow's user talk page on behalf of HalfShadow; evidently, it was an unauthorized unblock request, since HalfShadow promptly removed it on sight. -- SoCalSuperEagle ( talk ) 02:08, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Reviewing the block in a week sounds good. If there's consensus to do that, someone should mention it on HalfShadow's usertalk so that s/he knows.  I can't get as worked up as Scott did about someone making a wisecrack about a person on a noindexed project page if it's an isolated incident; others have mentioned though that there is further history to take into account.  69.228.170.24 (talk) 02:28, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

April 2010 Baghdad bombings
is repeatedly adding the unsourced claim that the CIA carried out the April 2010 Baghdad bombings to that article. Notices on his talk page to not add unreferenced claims have been met with notices on my talk page to not add unreferenced claims (which I have not) and requesting citations that al-Qaeda carried out the bombing (which are already in the article).

I don't want to look like I'm edit warring, quite honestly don't want to be involved in this at all, and also have to go somewhere IRL quite soon. Could someone please look in on this issue? Thanks, <span style="color:green;font-family:'Lucida Console', Arial, sans-serif;">// Programming gecko ( talk ) 20:36, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Vimbo Gales blocked for edit-warring, although this is exactly the kind of thing that must be verified, and Vimbo Gales does not seem to get it.--Chaser (talk) 20:44, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A bit late - but I suppose it has been noted that the account name is a play on "Jimbo Wales" (transpose initials, then G for J and V - which makes up half of... for W)? The editor was obviously not here to improve the project. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:42, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Blocked user InkHeart using anons
InkHeart, a user who has been blocked for some time now and repeatedly causes disruptive editing as anons, has returned as Special:Contributions/212.100.250.207. Can an admin please block this address? Thanks. Ω pho  is  04:30, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you provide some diffs and explain how someone who has never seen Inkheart before can tell that this IP address is him? -- Jayron  32  04:47, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, was heading to bed so didn't have time to write a detailed complaint. InkHeart used to edit Korean articles and was very possessive of them, and basically started creating multiple accounts so it looked like a lot of people agreed with her edits. Anyways, she got blocked, but continues to come back as anons to add unsourced stuff like here and here. Ω  pho  is  15:36, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Large amount of copyvio images uploaded by User:Zupfk
Most (or all) of User:Zupfk's image uploads are copyvios (File:Luchin in 2010.jpg from, for example). I'd appreciate if an administrator could save me some time and delete them.  The left orium  15:49, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Nuked. Rettetast (talk) 16:19, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks!  The left orium  16:45, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Threat to shut us down
Made here, article Katyn massacre. I have not notified this user. --CliffC (talk) 03:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Indef blocked. Crum375 (talk) 03:11, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And reduced to two weeks since its an IP. The threat is laughable anyway, two weeks is probably overkill-- Jac 16888 Talk 03:15, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think the notification part is optional - even as I type it says above the box "You must notify any user that you discuss". Are you sure about the blocked part? The user hasn't received a block notice as far as I can see, so if they have been blocked they won't know why. I am sure they can guess, given the nature of their edits, but still that shouldn't be an excuse for procedural laziness. And here is a link to the policy about block lengths where it says "IP addresses should almost never be indefinitely blocked" in bold letters. Weakopedia (talk) 15:27, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't believe that people who do things so blatantly obvious as this need to be notified; there is no defense and it will just be a block anyways. WP:BURO does contain a nugget of common sense. Tarc (talk) 15:34, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Tarc, you didnt make a "procedural error" you intentionally decided unilaterally that there was no reason to contact that user, that is not your decision to make. This is BAD. Please dont do it again, such an attitude is not what Wikipedia needs.Camelbinky (talk) 15:47, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Er—surely it was CliffC and not Tarc who decided not to notify? ╟─ Treasury Tag ► without portfolio ─╢ 16:35, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What exactly is the point of notifying a blocked user of an ANI other than process-wonkery? --Smashville<sup style="color:#03F">talk 16:33, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Exactly. ╟─ Treasury Tag ► without portfolio ─╢ 16:35, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As I understand policy and how it is normally implemented even a blocked editor has the right to post on his/her talk page and for someone to paste it over to AN/I so they can defend themselves. And in this case at least according to Weakopedia it seems this user was NOT blocked at the time or at least it wasnt posted on their talk page. So yea informing the person should be done EVERY time.Camelbinky (talk) 19:28, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Camelbinky, the accused must be given a right to defend themselves. Whether it is by an editorial sanction restricting them to their user and talk pages and ANI only, or by allowing them access only to their talk page and having an editor c&p their comments, or by allowing e-mail access only and an editor offering to post the contents of an e-mail on their behalf. Mjroots (talk) 08:35, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Am I understanding this correctly? You guys are arguing that someone who has threatened to hack and "shut down" the site has a right to have their further blatherings copied and pasted here?  This is not a court of law, they're not entitled to be heard.  I sincerely doubt the "threat" was anything other than trolling, but the point remains that we are not a bureaucracy, and going over the deep end because an anonymous vandal didn't get their day in court is bizarre, to say the least.  <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  08:44, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec)Oh, come on. What possible "defense" can the IP possibly offer for this inane comment: "rights to post this documents? please present the rights and you can return, if not then 2 days later, your site will be shut down and hacked. thank you" It's a troll. Treat it like one. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:45, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hah, the user has been notified about the ANI thread but not about the block. It would make more sense the other way.  The block is fine, WP:RBI. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 11:22, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And there you have it. Marking as resolved.  <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  11:37, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If he asks, tell him the notification got lost in the mail, or cyberspace, or whatever. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:39, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by Koavf
This editor has brought a notable article to Afd, and is now actively changing the article in question while the AfD is still open, ready to engage others in an edit war. The editor insists that Stryper's 2007 album release The Roxx Regime Demos is a demo and not an album. Thus, since he has declared it to be a demo, it is therefore not notable and the article should be deleted. However, The Roxx Regime Demos is not a demo, but an officially released full album consisting of demo-songs which were remastered in the studio. Major players in the professional music business including Stryper themselves have declared 'The Roxx Regime Demos' to be an album/compilation, and not a demo: Allmusic.com, MSN.com, MTV.com, vh1.com, RollingStones.com, Stryper Website. Furthermore on the article, the article's talk page and on AfD I provided several reliable verifiable sources which have significantly covered Stryper's 'The Roxx Regime Demos' album. Koavf is actively ignoring these and other numerous reliable verifiable sources which prove that the 'The Roxx Regime Demos' is not a demo. It appears as if he is ready to engage others in edit war on the article in question, and has thus placed his eye on repeatedly changing the type of album from studio to demo, thus pushing forth his own personal opinion about this issue, without providing any reliable verifiable sources to prove that 'The Roxx Regime Demos' is a demo. I am not the one who placed the 'type of album' to studio, I merely reverted Koavf's change. Koavf came right back to revert my revert thus actively about to engage me in an edit war, which I refuse. This type of editing, ignoring reliable sources and his current changing of the type of album, is disruptive. Koavf has a long history of blocks, community ban and topic ban, and it appears as if in this case he is back to his former ways of aggressive and disruptive editing. Thus I have brought the issue to this board. Could an administrator please thoroughly look into this issue? Thank you. Amsaim (talk) 02:04, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Disruptive? I have made my case for AfD on the relevant page, and it is not a spurious one. I find it telling that Amsaim has no problem with the fact that he has edited this page several times during the AfD (1, 2, and 3.) He also has no problem with me adding Category:Compilation albums to the article and he has no problem with User:SunCreator removing Category:Demo albums from the article, but he thinks my sole revert (with a credible source) is disruptive enough to warrant posting at AN/I. Simply put, this is a spurious allegation on his part. He claims that this article is "notable", but that is exactly the nature of the AfD, and so far, only one third-party source provides any critical commentary, so it's entirely legitimate of me to propose AfD and it is not disruptive, nor is this single sourced revert to the article itself. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:21, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Addendum I would like to also add that Category:Demo albums was on the article before I ever saw it and before the AfD began, so if anything, it should remain until the AfD is closed. This is clearly a non-starter of an "incident." —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:24, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * One more I would also like to point out that one of the sources listed by Amsaim above explicitly reads (emphasis added) "Roxx Regime Demos, is comprised of -- you guessed it! -- demos from this pre-Stryper edition of the band." And this is a source that he has provided to prove that this isn't a demo album. I am honestly at a loss here. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:34, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Koavf is (purposely?) misquoting the album's review by allmusic.com. Allmusic.com in the full and correct quotation, writes: "And the 2007 compilation, Roxx Regime Demos, is comprised of -- you guessed it! -- demos from this pre-Stryper edition of the band.". Notice how he left out the compilation part which clearly puts 'The Roxx Regime Demos' in the album section? Allmusic.com calls 'The Roxx Regime Demos' a compilation - and not a demo. Big difference there. Amsaim (talk) 02:48, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Two things This is increasingly ridiculous. First off, the instructions at the top of this page read "Before posting a grievance about a user here, please discuss the issue with them on their user talk page." which you did not do. Secondly, I added Category:Compilation albums to the article. Finally, whether or not it is an album or a compilation album has never been in dispute; no one is arguing that, so I have no idea why you continue claiming it here. Simply put, you didn't follow the instructions for this process, you ignored the dispute resolution process, and your post here is far more out of line than anything I've done to that article. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:10, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well this is all jolly fun... but this is the Administrators' noticeboard and we haven't heard from them yet... --Jubilee♫ clipman  03:15, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment - There is quite a history here. However, I think this is a case of a misplaced over-zealousness on the part of, personally. He has interpreted the guidelines in a particular way and gone ahead and either PRODed or AfDed a large number of articles because of his interpretation. However, those guidelines are open to interpretation and are currently being reviewed because of these deletions and has actually taken part in those discussions unlike the nom. I am inclined to AGF, therefore, and move on --Jubilee♫ clipman  02:27, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This does not appear to be an administrator issue at this point. If the AFD is frivilous, enough people will vote keep to close it down.  Koavf appears to be being WP:BOLD in his interpretation of existing notability policy; if his interpretation has no consensus, it will become readily apparent from the results of the AFDs.  If there is a problem, there are other means of seeking dispute resolution.  Try WP:RFC or mediation or some such.  -- Jayron  32  03:34, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Jayron32. My feelings exactly  --Jubilee♫ clipman  04:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Jayron32 has summed up the situation quite nicely. Let's close this thread & move on; nothing to see here. -- llywrch (talk) 19:11, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I see absolutely no reason why this is here. There is nothing here that requires admin attention.  It's an editing dispute, pure and simple.  Is Koavf disrupting the AfD?  No.  Is he disrupting anything?  No.  Do you disagree with his interpretation?  Yes.  End of file.  Woogee (talk) 22:01, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

User:Draftlock
has taken it upon himself to archive another user's talk page on the grounds that it's too large. I have reverted him now, twice, and advised him to come here and discuss it, as I don't think it's any of his business to be messing with other users' pages that way. It's nannyism, and I know I certainly wouldn't like it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:32, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * That user's talk page is 78 kilobytes long. It's helpful to move older discussion into an archive subpage. See Help:Archiving a talk page & User_talk:Oanabay04/archive1. --Draftlock (talk) 02:45, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, but it's up to each user to decide when/if to do it. I agree with BaseballBugs.   7  02:53, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * That's not all that big, and for a personal talk page, it's the user's choice. Unless you are that user, or have express permission from them, you should not be doing that. Shadowjams (talk) 03:00, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I didn't know such a guideline or unwritten law. Thanks. --Draftlock (talk) 03:09, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * See User pages, which doesn't seem to have a shortcut. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:03, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Account impersonation
has claimed that his previous account was that of, and that he abandoned the account after losing his password. Skeptical of this claim based on their vastly different editing histories and on the fact that User:127 made edits subsequent to User:Fitzpatrick making this claim, I asked Nick Fitzpatrick if he was sure he previously used the User:127 account on his talk page, he insisted he had. However, I also asked User:127 about it here and he has denied being Nick Fitzpatrick. I believe that Nick Fitzpatrick is a sockpuppet of User:NoCal100 because of his editing history being intimately tied to User:Los Admiralos, a confirmed sockpuppet of NoCal100. Could someone please look into this issue further? Account impersonation on the part of someone is definitely at play here (and I believe the evidence points more to one than the other). Efforts to get to the bottom of this would be appreciated.  T i a m u t talk 10:37, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * We're sure getting a lot of "lost password sob stories" in the past few days. There was also one at Reference Desk (maybe I'll look for it).  I don't remember seeing them with any such frequency in the past.  There was also the phishing email sent to admins a few weeks ago, and the uptick of the fairly regular phenomenon of users getting emails because random anons tried resetting their passwords.  I saw this all as coincidence but begin to wonder if there might be a connection. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 10:47, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I have blocked this account for apparent account impersonation and possible sockpuppeting. Crum375 (talk) 10:53, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm concerned over the password impersonation issues too. This is probably (as someone told me earlier) an issue for the wiki-tech list/irc channel, but I haven't done that myself. If someone might bring it up in the appropriate place it would be appreciated. Shadowjams (talk) 11:43, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * For the record, if a user has forgotten her/his password but has enabled email, they can query the Wiki engine for a new password. If a user claims to have forgotten their password, that's their first step in solving the problem. (And if she/he claims to have scrambled their email setting, well tough beans: that account is for all intents & purposes gone for good.) Be suspicious of anyone who claims to have forgotten their password but does not volunteer the steps they took to recover it. -- llywrch (talk)


 * Good point; I was referring specifically to an elevated level of complaints about others using the password retrieval mechanism over the last few days. I don't see anything broken in the implementation from wikipedia's side. Shadowjams (talk) 21:01, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Herbert Schildt
Can someone please take a look at the IP editors of the AfD page? They all seem to be from the same user, and they all seem to be socks belonging to Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Spinoza1111. User:Spinoza1111 is currently blocked. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:12, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * User informed at the last IP used: . --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:14, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * All the IP's there are Edward Nilges AKA Spinoza1111. I usually revert on sight, as he is an incredible nuisance. Someone should block the lot a short while, at least for the duration of the AFD. None of them are his home IP which is currently also blocked.--Atlan (talk) 19:31, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Radiopathy

 * Information
 * Primary account
 * Sockpuppets
 * Sockpuppets


 * Sockpuppet investigations case pages
 * Sockpuppet investigations/Radiopathy
 * Sockpuppet investigations/Radiopathy/Archive
 * CU confirmation of sockpuppets
 * MPFC1969

This user has been to the noticeboards many times, more often than not, as the person being reported. Recently, they were caught red handed socking to evade their indef 1rr restriction, and their abuse of twinkle, which got them added to the twinkle blacklist.

Currently, the sock is blocked indef, and the main account blocked a week. I personally don't think that's enough, so I'm asking for other's opinions here.—  Dæ dαlus Contribs 03:56, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

User notified.—  Dæ dαlus Contribs 04:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Disappointing If he wants to retire, he can retire. If he wants to abide by the rules, he can abide by the rules. But if he's going to keep on editing in contravention of the rules, he has to be blocked or banned. I've had numerous bad interactions with this user and I believe that he edits in bad faith when interacting with other users. He has made it clear that he will lie to manipulate the community on Wikipedia and has resorted to not-so-subtle threats against me to try to get me blocked or banned for spurious reasons. I am not an admin, but I would like to voice my support for an extended block or outright ban as this user is unwilling or unable to abide by any community standard. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:10, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Addendum I would like to point out that Radiopathy can be a very useful editor, frequently improving articles and even&mdash;ironically&mdash;reporting sockpuppets. It would be unfortunate for him to be banned outright, but I still think that a serious block might send the message that he cannot simply evade community sanctions with impunity. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I see in his block log that he has been blocked before for violating 1RR restrictions: on 10 December 2009 (1 week) and on 21 February 2010 (1 week). While this is his first effort at socking, it is his third effort to avoid 1RR restrictions, and he has effectively been blocked for it for the same length of time. But he hasn't been using his primary account since 2 April; it seems that this sock was some kind of WP:CLEANSTART effort, which he can't do while under sanctions. Lengthening the block of the primary account isn't likely to make a difference, given its inactivity. Are you thinking about a ban? --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:22, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think an indefinite block is justified unless there is any evidence he's had a change of heart. He understands what is expected here, he just doesn't want to abide by the rules. EdJohnston (talk) 18:17, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As already mentioned above, the primary account is pretty much inactive; therefore, an indef-block alone may not be practical. For this particular case, a long-term community ban may be what's needed to send the message that the user's continued disruptive behavior will not be tolerated. -- SoCalSuperEagle ( talk ) 18:45, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

On a side note, I've added the sock's links.—  Dæ dαlus Contribs 19:57, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Radiopathy was once a good contributor, although he's certainly had problems dealing with other editors for quite a while. At this point, he hasn't made a decent contribution to the project in months. Everytime someone takes issue with his lack of respect for other editors, he retires. The only reason he's come back since his last retirement was to hound an editor he had previously had problems with . As he told us all once upon a time to "get a fuckin' life already", and he's since socked to avoid restrictions and his block history, I have no problem with an indef for now. Let's get him back to one account that we can keep an eye on, try and get him to understand civility and edit warring, and work from there. Dayewalker (talk) 20:16, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

The sock is now requesting an unblock.—  Dæ dαlus Contribs 20:52, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Which has been declined.—  Dæ dαlus Contribs 21:16, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Includeonly I made a request on his talk saying that I would create a section and transclude it here if he had anything to say for himself. If his past actions are any indication, he will simply revert my post, but I figured it was worth a go and it would be an opportunity for him to respond to the conversation here (as he is currently blocked and can only edit his talk.) —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:31, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * He doesn't care. Well then, if RP is unwilling to follow our rules, or explain himself, and per the above, should a ban discussion not start, then?—  Dæ  dαlus Contribs 21:34, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay It was worth a shot. He's unwilling to even contribute and apparently as intransigent as before, so I guess my earlier statement still stands. His former account is primarily used to harass me and his current account is primarily used to circumvent the restrictions on his other account. It seems clear to me that the only options at this point are a serious or long block or ban. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:37, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * His responses as his sock are exactly the kind of behavior that we've come to expect from Radiopathy, he doesn't care for rules, civility, or sanctions. He wants to declare the new account his primary acount and "edit in peace," and ignore all of the problems he's caused for himself previously. Dayewalker (talk) 21:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * His declaration to edit in peace is actually a fallacy. One need only look through his contributions to see that he was doing the same things his primary account got blocked for the first time.—  Dæ  dαlus Contribs 21:48, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The sock is continuing to deny he is a sock, and that he has done anything wrong by socking to evade his indef 1rr sanction and his twinkle community sanction(he was blacklisted). I would like to wait for some opinions from involved and univolved admins before starting the community ban discussion.—  Dæ  dαlus Contribs 22:28, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Redux I guess Radiopathy is back and willing to listen to the community. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:36, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've asked for direct confirmation that he has directly violated WP:SOCK by abusing multiple accounts with the MP sock account. Let's see how he answers.—  Dæ  dαlus Contribs 22:44, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * They have blanked the above, which to me is just continued denial of the sock. If he blanks my post without a response once more, I'll start the ban discussion.—  Dæ  dαlus Contribs 22:51, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps a longer block could have been given for abusive sock-puppetry, but a week's block is not unreasonable either. Lets not waste any more of our time on this issue - if at the end of the week Radiopathy returns and contributes constructively and in line with their edit-restrictions, that's well and good; if not, they can be reblocked, or a ban considered. Abecedare (talk) 00:16, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Radiopathy's response
I agree to adhere to the 1RR sanction, not that it's necessary anymore, but it's just some baggage I'll need to carry around for a while. I also feel that I should state explicitly, since the issue arose, that I agree to not use multiple accounts. My account, however, shall maintain it's "Retired" status until such time that I feel comfortable rejoining the community.  R ad io pa th y  •talk•  22:33, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Clarification - I agree likewise to not abuse multiple accounts.  R ad io pa th y  •talk•   22:45, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

And my request about direct admittance that MP is his sock goes unanswered.—  Dæ dαlus Contribs 23:05, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this is enough for now, and that it is likely best for you not to return to his talk page. The week long block can stay in place. AniMate  23:48, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I have substituted the transclusion as this discussion is now over.—  Dæ dαlus Contribs 08:53, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Note:


 * Radiopathy, what do you mean by "clarifying" will not use to will not abuse? Are you using multiple accounts?  I think in your present situation there is no way you can use multiple accounts legitimately.  If any of your alternate accounts are editing disruptively then you're improperly concealing the connection between them to escape scrutiny.  If none of them are editing disruptively then you're operating good-hand/bad-hand accounts.  So I think you should be restricted to one account  (WP:CLEANSTART is perhaps ok, but it means you have to stop using your old accounts).  At minimum, disclose all aliases to arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org and state here (truthfully) that you've done that. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 11:15, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As said above, I substituted the transclusion, so that the talk page is not transcluded once this sections is archived. If you want to talk to RP, you'll have to do so at his talk page, as this discussion is over.  If you want to restart any kind of discussion, I'll show you how to transclude anything if you don't know already, but you'll have to start a new thread with views on the matter.  As said, I personally think this one is done and over with.—  Dæ  dαlus Contribs 05:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Request Deletion of Userspace Subpage That Won't Expand DB-Userreq to Auto-Flag It For You Guys
Would someone be so kind as to help me out by deleting User:WCityMike/Monobook.css, User:WCityMike (Usurped)/Monobook.css, User:WCityMike (Usurped)/monobook.css, User:WCityMike (Usurped)/monobook.js, User:WCityMike (Usurped)/myskin.js, User:MikeHarris/Monobook.css, User:MikeHarris/monobook.css, User:MikeHarris/monobook.js, and User:MikeHarris/myskin.js?

These are all me (the extra two accounts are the result of a recent cleanup involving universal logins gone awry -- documentation for this can be found on WP:CHU).

It appears that requesting same via the standardized way of doing it -- the db-userreq template -- doesn't work, as the code seems to remain intact as code (due to it being a CSS or JS page) instead of turning into the appropriate deletion template.

If I've somehow asked in the wrong arena, if someone would be so kind as to direct me to the correct location, I'd appreciate it. &#151; Mike 22:01, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * User:Angusmclellan got most of them, I got a couple of stragglers. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:23, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks! &#151; Mike 22:27, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * For the record you can add db tags to .js pages (and presumably .css, I haven't tried). It doesn't expand the template but it still adds the page to the category-- Jac 16888 Talk 22:36, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

User:RicoCorinth reported by Camelbinky
As this is a relatively long dispute the relevant information regardin User:RicoCorinth's incivility can be found at User talk:Jimbo Wales where I have the relevant quotes for all to read of Rico's incivility and lack of AGF towards User:UpstateNYer which is he main thrust of this AN/I.


 * Cambelblinky, did you happen to notice that it states at the top of this page, "Before posting a grievance about a user here, please discuss the issue with them on their user talk page"? Why didn't you do that? -- Rico  00:03, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Secondarily- Rico then after reading my question to User:Silver seren asking if Rico should be brought to AN/I after threatening to remove any comments at Talk:Schenectady City School District if me and Silver continued to talk about Rico and another user not seeming to be having good motives towards improving the article and were indeed causing undue stress towards UpstateNYer as retribution for an AfD dispute. Rico then came to my page and left a LONG post (since deleted by me)about me being "uncivil again to the point of being disruptive" because I was accusing HIM of being uncivil, he went on and smeared me about an block I received which I fully dont believe would have passed muster had it been brought here to AN/I instead of just an admin throwing it on me like what happened; and then Rico went and brought attention about his post on my talk page to another user whom I've had serious disputes and problems with in the problem and whom I've brought to AN/I before because in MY OPINION he was harassing and unfairly watching my talk page and going to disputes I was in with no other motive than to argue against me (User:Equazcion handled the matter if I remember correctly), though we've been ok towards each other recently and dont wish to bring him into this other than Rico had no right or reason to bring this to other's attention or bring up past "problems" other than smear me so others could read it on my talk page.Camelbinky (talk) 23:33, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * In six years of editing Wikipedia, I have never -- ever -- threatened to remove any other editors comments. I have asked you to stop accusing me of this, and you read it. It looks like you've confused me with Delicious carbunkle, who wrote, "I'm going to start removing off-topic comments like the ones above per WP:TALK." I never wrote anything like that.
 * I don't know if UpstateNYer felt "undue stress," nor how you would know, but I have never intended to inflict stress on any anybody at Wikipedia -- and certainly not "as retribution" for anything.
 * You've been told about your incivility many times. I'm just the last person to. The administrator that blocked you just wrote, "WRT Camelblinky, I've seen him continuing his hostility elsewhere since I blocked him."
 * I didn't write that you were being disruptive because you were calling me uncivil. I didn't even realize you were. I wrote you that bringing this to ANI would be an abuse of process, and that is considered disruptive.
 * You were supposed to come to my talk page and discuss any issues you might have had with me, real or imagined.
 * Once I realized that the two of you had decided to come here and abuse ANI, I went to your talk page. Where else was I supposed to go?
 * I explained myself, but you just deleted my discussion without even replying.
 * You're not allowed to bring grievances to ANI without first trying to discuss your concerns with your targets on their talk pages.
 * Also, to the extent that you filed this grievance to try to drive me off -- as you did Delicious carbunkle -- to help your ally win a dispute over WP:EL, and establish sovereignty over that page, you are also being disruptive.
 * My intention was not to "smear" you; my intention was to dissuade you -- in part by letting you know that you were wrong, and that you had confused me with someone else.
 * And partly because of something an attorney once said: "I'm gonna bloody your witness. Are you sure you want that?"
 * The witness was so pathetic, and a habitual liar, so she wasn't going to survive the witness stand. -- Rico  00:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Camelbinky brought this it to ANI, despite never having discussed any of his issues on my talk page. Tasty monster/ Tony Sidaway told you that Wikipedia is not a battleground. -- Rico  00:43, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Please see User talk:Hippo43/Archives/2011/January as evidence of the smears I have to put up with "Best to avoid discussions with Camelbinky - rational debate is not one of his strong points." Camelbinky (talk) 23:47, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Camelbinky, that's not a smear, just a comment on my experience of your communication style, and constructive advice to Rico. Going to ANI and falsely accusing someone of hounding you would be a smear. Please don't make this about me and you. --hippo43 (talk) 23:51, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Why didn't you inform me that you were discussing me on Jimbo's talk page? -- Rico  23:44, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Because I dont have to?Camelbinky (talk) 23:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Rico brought the dispute at Camelbinky's talk page to my attention because he had mentioned me in his complaint about Camelbinky. I don't think he needed to refer to Camelbinky's history with me, but having done so, he was right to let me know. I have no dog in this fight, but IMO it would be best if Camelbinky chose to walk away from these kinds of arguments at times, or simply agreed to disagree, instead of looking for admin intervention to prove he was right all along. --hippo43 (talk) 23:48, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you Hippo43, that was very good advice and I understand I am very hotheaded. I am glad that we got to agree on something recently at one of the policy pages, as your exclaimation point seemed to imply at that page you were just as surprised as me that we were agreeing and I do hope when we do cross paths that past problems are forgotten and perhaps new agreements and commonalities can be found. I appreciate you're post here. Thank you.Camelbinky (talk) 23:57, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Having some trouble following all the new posts that are being put in the middle... so lets start just putting them down at the end if at all possible... Rico- I put my concerns to you at the Talk:Schenectady City School District page and you gave me a "warning" on my talk page about it. What more needed to be discussed with you at your talk page? You have from day one given no AGF towards UpstateNYer and when I defended him you suddenly accused me of doing so because I'm an "ally" of his... yet you say that I am the one using words that suggest Wikipedia is a "battleground". He and I work well together to improve articles, but we actually NEVER go to the same policy pages and support each other in discussions on changing policy or anything like that. We actually rarely work on the same article at the same time other than right now on a sandbox rewrite of Albany, New York. If we are allies because we respect each other's work and you think that is wrong of us and accuse us of having some sort of conspiracy... wow, you have a bad view on editors interacting then.Camelbinky (talk) 00:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Why were you colluding with Silver seren in a corner, falling all over yourself trying to come up with some excuse to file a grievance against us here. Just to win a content dispute at the district article?
 * It might have been nice if you had invited me to participate in the discussion. When I found out about it, I though I straightened it out. -- Rico  00:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not familiar with the above, but I did have a bizarre tussle with Rico on Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons over a post of his. I asked him a question about an edit he made, and he replied in a different section, whether because he didn't see mine or I didn't see his, I don't recall. So I moved his response into the section I'd opened with the question, and I responded to his response. He moved his post back without explanation, which left my response responding to nothing.  So I left his post where he seemed to want it, and copied it into the section about his edit, with a friendly edit summary complete with smiley.  He removed it again.  So I moved the entire sequence (my question, his response, and my response) higher as a subsection of the section he seemed to want them to be in, with the edit summary "I don't mind where it goes, so long as questions and answers are together," and another smiley in an increasingly futile attempt to signal my goodwill.  He removed his post entirely this time on the grounds that he hadn't originally posted it in that place.  I gave up at that point, so the page was archived with a section in which I'm talking to myself. :) Rico then proceeded to post about me in various places, how action should be taken against me as a serial talk-page-post mover, so I do sympathize with Camelblinky's perspective on this, though I think I'd also advise him to try not to respond to it.  SlimVirgin  talk  contribs 00:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Nice bit of WP:BATTLE, but you're hardly an uninvolved administrator. My reply at WP:BLP wasn't to a post of yours. You took it away from the post I was replying to and moved it under a post of yours to try to force it to be a reply to a post of yours. That was disruptive. -- Rico  00:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Rico, please stop splitting my posts in half with your comments as you've now done to my first post. I do believe YOU are the one that DELETED UpstatNYer's posts for that very same reason. That is why I got Delicious and you mixed up. My bad, from your styles and continued aggressive editing and posting at the Schenectady CSD page against Upstater I hope you can understand why I made that honest mistake.
 * Colluding?! HA! Wow, talk pages are that secret? I asked him a question as he had mentioned at the Schenectady CSD page that Delicious had other run-ins at AN/I regarding similar problems; and then after YOU deleted Upstater's posts around the same time Delicious commented that he would remove posts (and I thought you had posted that, I was wrong, I apologize for that) I thought it best to get Silver's opinion as he seemed to know more about the history of the two of you. You accused me in several places of being an "ally" of Upstater's and trying to gang up on you when you had your own "ally" as well. Ally is your word remember, you've used it several times. And at every place you have a serious lack of "assuming good faith" towards ANYONE who does anythign wrong or disagrees with you. And now you accuse Slim of "battling" and everything... for the record Slim and I have had our "battles" that have gotten quite heated, so I'd say she(?) IS an uninvolved admin; just another instance of Rico seeing conspiracies and people with agendas and no AGF. Rico- no conspiracy, just a bunch of people who just dont like your attitude. And now I'll take Slim and Hippo's advice and not make any more responses unles something is actually going to happen and I'm needed to answer a question.Camelbinky (talk) 00:33, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I was given some good advice a long time ago by an experienced Wikipedian. If you're having a problem with a person who is apparently being irrational or very difficult, and you can't get through, withdraw. One of two things will probably happen: (1) you were wrong, in which case no one else will see this issue with that editor, and it's good that you withdrew; or (2) you were right, in which cases others will see it, and you can quietly sit back and watch that editor seal his own fate. It was with that principle in mind that I stopped arguing with Rico over where to place his talk-page post. :) SlimVirgin  talk  contribs 01:12, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * More importation of a conflict by an uninvolved editor, that is apparently holding a grudge against me? You never "stopped arguing with [me] over where to place [my] talk-page post" You put my post where I hadn't put it three times in half an hour. All you did was edit war. We never discussed it, ever. You have gotten other editors blocked for edit warring at ANI. It must be nice to be above any need to follow the rules. -- Rico  01:35, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * That's pretty disingenuous. I posted between your two posts up above. UpstateNYer audaciously chopped up a single post of mine, and inserted posts inside my post. When I restored my post to its whole, something UpstateNYer agreed I had a right to do, that caused UpstateNYer's posts to be deleted. But, then again, you knew that. Wikipedia's policies, guidelines and majors essays don't provide the right to insert posts inside the posts of others, as I explained here. You were originally wanting to take that here as your grievance. Did you just want to bring any old grievance here, no matter what? Anything to harass an editor that disagees with your ally? -- Rico  04:03, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I was wondering if an uninvolved adminstrator would be so kind as to opine about SlimVirgin's importation of a dispute, despite not being involved in it, but yet having every reason to be biased? -- Rico  01:35, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Rico, suggest you move on. All this won't achieve anything.
 * FWIW, I find it really difficult to follow what you're saying in discussions when you make endless minor changes to what you wrote earlier. It would be a lot easier to follow if you just wrote what you want to say, at the bottom of the discussion if possible, then if you have something to add, write a new comment. --hippo43 (talk) 01:42, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I am only incidentally involved in this matter, so much as I was involved in the Eric Ely discussion and then noticed the discussion over at the Schenectady article. From just looking over the discussion there, I saw that UpstateNYer was presenting perfectly valid points to his benefit, while Rico and Delicious carbuncle were largely ignoring the points he was making. Adding in the fact that they have never worked on this article before and that they were involved in the Eric Ely discussion, it was rather clear that they were trying to bring their viewpoints into play here, when they had no reason to. The comment removal by Rico was also ridiculous. It is perfectly understandable for him to want to keep his post intact (just as it is perfectly understandable for UpstartNYer to want to address specific points, which is why he responded in the comment), but that does not give Rico the right to remove UpstateNYer's comments entirely. They should have been moved below his comment, if he disliked their placement. Removing them, per WP:TALK is not a valid response. Silver seren C 01:45, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, what happened was UpstateNYer was unable to build consensus for external links in the article, and revert warring didn't work, so he summoned partisan allies that had never edited or discussed the article, to influence the outcome of this discussion -- calling on friends/ allies to go there and agree with UpstateNYer for the purpose of supporting UpstateNYer's side of the discussion, as proxies to sway consensus.
 * That's when Silver seren and Camelbinky showed up -- but rather than discuss the article, they set about attacking the two editors that disagreed with UpstateNYer
 * Not one of Camelbinky's edits on the talk page addresses the article issue. He opted instead to only to write about his ally's opponents to them, threaten them, and stealthily collude off in corners about how to take us to ANI -- despite never having discussed any of his issues on either of our talk pages.
 * He already scared off one editor.
 * It's been said that UpstateNYer supports Camelbinky,, and I've seen it -- even to the point of UpstateNYer wanting to defend Camelbinky without even knowing what he's been accused of -- but this has always been about repaying favors, or just being loyal. -- Rico  02:42, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Angry mastodon climbs the Reichstag dressed as Spider-Man to battle for ally
I was wondering if anybody besides me sees this this way. -- Rico  02:45, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * If you hadn't said much, most people would probably have thought Camelbinky was maybe over-reacting and just looking for a fight in starting this thread. If you stop now, there's still a chance. --hippo43 (talk) 03:14, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I have a great idea. Why don't both of you go have a cup of tea and do something other than talk about each other for the next 2-3 days, and see how you feel then?

This is rising to the level of mutually disruptive engagement; I think that you both going on about your lives is generally preferable to having to block both of you. Hopefully you agree. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:37, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd agree to the closure of this thread. -- Rico  04:37, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Just noting for future reference that Rico has issued me an admin misconduct warning because I posted here. :)   SlimVirgin  talk  contribs 20:30, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:Psychedelia
The article Eight Tray Gangster Crips was nominated for deletion in Sept. 2009. The result was a redirect. . User:Psychedelia has been removing the redirects from that article and spelling variations and then restored the article as 83 Gangster Crips. Along the way he has called me a "bully", "Gestapo" and accused me of having multiple accounts:  He stated "I will never stop reposting the article as its main rivals gang page is up and never been deleted"  and admitted being an affiliation, which is a possible COI issue:. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:39, 27 April 2010 (UTC) Psychedelia (talk) 20:46, 26 April 2010 (PST)
 * Editor was notified here: . Niteshift36 (talk) 03:41, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * All I can say is "Wow". What deranged mental perturbations. It's like you'd want the dictionary to be blank.
 * You participated in the AfD. If you disagreed with the outcome, you should have taken it to DRV. You didn't. Now, 8 months later, you want to just pretend like it didn't happen. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:49, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Psychadelia - you appear to be trying to use Wikipedia to advertise for gangs. We are most certainly not here for that purpose.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:51, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Redirects restored per AFD, redirects protected for 6 months. Psychedelia, you may want to try WP:DRV, but threatening that you will continue to undo redirects until some other article is deleted is unacceptable. Alternatively, if you want to build a sandbox version of the article at User:Psychedelia/83 Gangster Crips that actually overcomes the AFD objections, feel free to give it a shot.&mdash;Kww(talk) 03:57, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

how do you get a template like news release taken off of an article after it goes up ?
One of my articles Red Back Mining was given that template but since then the user who gave it that label and I have added and removed material from it so it doesn't sound as much like a news release. at whose discretion is it ?Grmike (talk) 09:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)grmike
 * I think you may find it is not your article. Stephen B Streater (talk) 10:11, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * it is my article not in an ownership sense but in the sense that I did all the research for it, all of the content in it was put there by me. if there's anything wrong with the page then it reflects on my reputation as a user and editor.Grmike (talk) 10:29, 26 April 2010 (UTC)grmike
 * This is not a matter for administrative intervention, so I am copying this discussion to User talk:Grmike, and replying there. JamesBWatson (talk) 10:19, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

User Varsovian
Because of these edits,, , , , which are a repeated and persistent breach of WP:OR, with much regret I have come to the conclusion that User:Varsovian is displaying WP:TE problems and possibly even WP:OWN and WP:DE issues at the London Victory Parade of 1946. These edits came after Talk page explanation of WP policy/guideline breaches, after I filed Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-04-25/London Victory Parade of 1946, after a WP:DIGWUREN warning here, after a edit summary complaint (which wasn't my complaint) about WP:TROLLING and after considerable third-party debate about the subject here Articles for deletion/Polish participation at the London Victory Parade of 1946. -Chumchum7 (talk) 11:07, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * This editor's tendentious editing is by no means restricted to the edits listed above: both in the article referred to above and elsewhere the editor is clearly trying to a plug particular point of view. Also the editor has been edit-warring in order to keep those tendentious edits in place. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:55, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * My proposal for solving the content problem at this article is found here I will repeat (and update) it here "The current main article has 1,218 words about Polish participation at the parade and 665 words about everything else connected to the parade. Clearly there should be less about the Polish participation, although it seems that WP:WEIGHT is a policy Chumchum7 is unaware of. Perhaps the entire section regarding Polish representation could be replaced by "Representatives from Poland were invited but did not attend." would be suitable? All editors agree that such representatives were invited and all agree that they did not attend.
 * I would like to point out that I was until now unaware of Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-04-25/London Victory Parade of 1946 as Chumchum7 didn't actually bother to tell me about it.
 * As to the comments of JamesBWatson, could he perhaps provide a diff or two so that I can see what he is referring to? Varsovian (talk) 12:00, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * One further comment: at the top of this page it clearly states "Before posting a grievance about a user here, please discuss the issue with them on their user talk page." Chumchum7 has made absolutely no attempt to discuss the issue with me on my talk page. I am trying very hard to not conclude that this report is a continuation of a strategy shown by the groundless Wikiquette alert filed by Chumchum7, i.e. to win a content dispute by having the other party prevented from adding the other PoV to the article. Varsovian (talk) 12:07, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Further to |Veteran Editor IV JamesBWatson's comment above, I should emphasise that yes the example I chose is indeed only the tip of the iceberg, which points to a very much larger pattern of editing behaviour. I have chosen this example only because it is the most recent one, and because it comes after several chances for ways to be changed and after many opportunities for lessons to be learned. I would invite administrators to look back through the circa 6 weeks of editing history at London Victory Parade of 1946, read its Talk page, and take a glance across the past 6 months for good measure. That would be an entirely objective analysis, and administrators will form their own conclusions. Administrators will also see that my Moderation Cabal message was signed and dated on the Talk page of London Victory Parade of 1946. If they have access to our watch lists, they could take a look at them too, to see what we are aware of. Editors will see that I have discussed Varsovian's behaviour with him several times, and the record of this is on his page, on my page and at the Talk page of London Victory Parade of 1946. Moreover, there are several other editors who are on the record as having similar difficulties communicating with Varsovian. I maintain that I made that Wikiquette alert in good faith, and that I open this case in good faith. If I have breached conflict resolution protocol in any way, I would like administrators to inform me so that I can learn, and so that I can apologize for it if necessary. In any case, the main issue here has been precisely identified and succinctly described by JamesBWatson above. Many thanks, -Chumchum7 (talk) 12:44, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You were told here that ANI is not the right place for your complaint and you were told here  that you need to discuss the issue with me on my talkpage before filing a dispute at ANI. But still you file the ANI. I am much reminded of the time when you sought assistance from admins. By some freak chance the two admins you decided would be most suitable to resolve our differences were the only admin who has ever blocked me and the only admin who has ever warned me about anything. Are you familiar with the phrase block-shopping? Varsovian (talk) 12:55, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * When readers click your two diffs above, they'll see you are talking about an entirely separate complaint. You are now referring to when I took issue with you adding that Polish people had been in the Waffen-SS, to the London Victory Parade of 1946. But this ANI is on the subject of your 4 edits about the historian Norman Davies, and you taking issue with him, as my 4 diffs show. These are two different subjects - the Waffen-SS and Norman Davies - and this dialogue is an exemplar of the communication problem over the past weeks and months.-Chumchum7 (talk) 13:29, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * So this ANI is about Davies? Perhaps you could show where you have attempted to discuss Davies on my talkpage? But to end the wiki-drama I myself will now edit out the part of the article which you object to. I will then propose new wording on the talk page and wait one week for discussion to take place there and consensus to be built. I hope that is acceptable to you. Varsovian (talk) 14:12, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

The 4 diffs presented seem to be a clear case of Varsovian edit warring to insert a personal negative and un-sourced opinion about a respected historian. His claim above that the article has weight problems doesn't address the issue and seems to be an attempt to divert attention. Dr. Loosmark 12:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Unsourced? Please check the links: you will find that the sources of the quotes which Davies contradicts are very reliable: one is the official record of the British Parliament and the other is The Times newspaper. Varsovian (talk) 12:58, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes unsourced. As in you presented no source which says Davies is wrong in what he wrote. Your personal interpretation that the The Times newspaper article contradicts Davies is basically just that, your personal opinion. Also could you please address the issue of your edit warring? Dr. Loosmark  13:06, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, not unsourced. Davies wrote "on the very eve of the parade" (i.e. 7 June) invitations were sent to Poles other than the internationally recognised government of Poland: both Hansard (twice, do check Hansard, it's online) and The Times stated prior to that date that invitations had been extended to Polish airmen who had served under British command. My personal opinion is that 4 June comes before 7 June, is your opinion that 4 June is actually the same date as 7 June? Varsovian (talk) 13:17, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That appears to be original research and synthesis. Correct or not, you are the one drawing the conclusion that he is wrong.  You need to find a reliable source that says this.  Jauerbackdude?/dude. 13:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying that he is wrong: I am saying that his statement contradicts historical records (i.e. Hansard) and media from the time (i.e. The Times). As the article says "Davies' statement regarding "the very eve of the parade" contradicts historical records and media from the time." Varsovian (talk) 13:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What reliable source already, before you, stated "Davies' statement regarding "the very eve of the parade" contradicts historical records and media from the time." or something similar? If you concluded that his statement contradicted historical records from your own interpretation of the dates and source material, but no one before you reached that conclusion, that is a novel synthesis of ideas. At wikipedia, editors should not reach their own conclusions based on availible data, as reaching your own conclusions is a form of original research.  We may only present the conclusions which have already been reached and published previously in reliable sources.  -- Jayron  32  13:56, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you consider the official journal of the British parliament to be a published reliable source? Do you consider The Times newspaper to be a published reliable source? Davies comment flatly contradicts the statements made in both. We are not talking about interpretation of dates, we are talking about certain verifiable statements verifiably made on certain verifiable dates. My understanding of WP:V is that anything likely to be challenged needs to have a WP:RS to support it. It is somewhat unlikely that anybody would want to challenge that 4 June came before 7 June, wouldn't you say? Varsovian (talk) 14:07, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Only that Davies does not flat contradics statements made in both, and in fact he does not even mention them. Having read all of those sources it is my opinion there is no contradiction. But anyway even if there would be such a thing as contradiction in those sources (and personally I'd say Davies is more reliable than a newspaper) then Wikipedia NPOV style requires you write: source X say this and this while source Y states this and this. Btw Varsovian I am asking you again about your edit warring as you seem to avoid that question. In case you think your edit warring is ok then you don't have to answer. Dr. Loosmark  14:20, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * How is it possible that “the faux pas was not corrected until the very eve of the parade" (as Davies claims) when multiple sources from the time (Hansard, The Times, the memories of General Anders, etc) all state that invitations were issued to Western Command Poles before “the very eve of the parade”? You may say that Davies is more reliable than a newspaper (although I’d point out that Davies has been known to be wrong even about the year that the parade took place) but is he more reliable than the man who was responsible for deciding who to invite or a man who actually received an invitation? Thank you very much for the invitation to discuss edit warring, given your block and warning log I’m sure that there is much I can learn from you about how to edit war properly. Varsovian (talk) 14:33, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Let me try restating my earlier remark: you are the one drawing the conclusion that he is contradicting other reports. You may be right, but you are the one who is stating this. You need to find a reliable source that says the same thing. Doing otherwise violates WP:SYNTH. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 14:55, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, the article currently states "He states that "the faux pas was not corrected until the very eve of the parade", when “in consequence, a last-minute invitation was sent by Foreign Minister Bevin directly to the Chief of Staff of the Polish Army, General Kopanski, who was still in post in London; and other invitations were sent to the chiefs of the Polish Air Force and the Polish Navy and to individual generals. The belated invitations were courteously declined.”[24] Four days before the parade Ernest Bevin, the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs wrote “His Majesty's Government still hope that it will also be possible for a party of Polish airmen who flew with the Royal Air Force in the Battle of Britain to be included in the parade.” " Would it be permissible to insert the words "(i.e. three days before the very eve of the parade)"? The text would thus read "He states that "the faux pas was not corrected until the very eve of the parade", when “in consequence, a last-minute invitation was sent by Foreign Minister Bevin directly to the Chief of Staff of the Polish Army, General Kopanski, who was still in post in London; and other invitations were sent to the chiefs of the Polish Air Force and the Polish Navy and to individual generals. The belated invitations were courteously declined.”[24] Four days before the parade (i.e. three days before the very eve of the parade) Ernest Bevin, the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs wrote “His Majesty's Government still hope that it will also be possible for a party of Polish airmen who flew with the Royal Air Force in the Battle of Britain to be included in the parade.” " This would very much draw attention the fact that what Davies says flatly contradicts by historical sources but it doesn't actually say that Davies' statement contradicts historical sources. Varsovian (talk) 15:26, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * At this point, this discussion needs to move to the talk page of the article in question. ANI is not the proper location to discuss content changes to articles.  Please move this to Talk:London_Victory_Parade_of_1946 where anyone who wishes may comment on the proposed changes.  Admins do not need to use their admin tools to make this happen.  I would copy and past the above propsed changes to the talk page, let the discussion run for a few days to hammer out a consensus, and proceed from there.  Admins don't need to protect, block, or delete anything right now, so I don't see where this discussion needs to happen here any further.  -- Jayron  32  15:45, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Jayron, unfortunately Varsovian has a long history of drawing original conclusions. See for example this edit from the talk page in March . Mr.Moszynski is the person who wrote to the British government and about the lack of Polish participation in the battle. For some reason Varsovian disliked his statement and wrote on the talk page that he is a liar. Again not a single source was presented which would state that Mr.Moszynski's statement was untruthful . Ok it's the talk page but still, accusing a living person of being a liar is beyond appalling and it just shows that Varsovian just doesn't "get it". Above he seemed to have, once again, skillfully dodged the question of his edit warring and not following wikipedia policies by turning the debate into content discussions knowing that then admins will say go to the article talk page and discuss it. Dr. Loosmark  15:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Not a single source? The letter which Moszynski claims is "an apology from Tony Blair regarding the British Government's failure to invite the Polish armed forces to the 1946 Victory Parade" is linked to at the article: it isn't from Tony Blair, it doesn't apologise for anything and makes no mention of any failure to invite anybody. Instead it expresses "regret that Polish contingents did not take part in the victory parade." Perhaps you would like to read what Moszynski claims (it is here ) and then contrast it with what the letter actually says (you can find that here ). Varsovian (talk) 16:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * do you have a source which says that Mr.Moszynski's statement is untruthful yes or no? the answer is no. judging by your link the letter in question was signed by Matthew Rycroft and according to wikipedia article: In 2002, Rycroft was appointed Private Secretary to Prime Minister Tony Blair, to advise him on matters related to foreign affairs, the European Union, Northern Ireland and defence. Are you sure that T.Blair did not know about this letter or even asked his adviser to reply to Mr.Moszynski? We simply don't know that. And even if the whole thing was handled at a "level lower" it's possible and probable that Mr.Moszynski simply just made a good faith assumption. You most certainly have no business trumpeting on wikipedia that Mr.Moszynski is a liar. Dr. Loosmark  17:20, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Is that letter from Tony Blair? No. Does it apologise for anything? No. Does it say that Polish armed forces were not invited to the parade? No. Did Moszynski write a press release claiming "he managed to secure an apology from Tony Blair regarding the British Government's failure to invite the Polish armed forces to the 1946 Victory Parade"? Yes. Varsovian (talk) 17:28, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * These are your conclusions (somebody else might see it differently) and in no way prove that Mr.Moszynski is a liar. Dr. Loosmark  17:38, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Jauerback, this is precisely the kind of dialogue I have found difficult with Varsovian, long term. It seems like some kind of CHAFF. I want to ask for your objective and neutral opinion: Firstly, would this discussion be evidence to add to a case of WP:DE, or not? Varsovian removed the OR in an edit not long ago here, and is now quoting the new paragraph in this discussion with you. He did this edit, he added in dialogue with me above, to end the "wiki-drama". The reference to Wikidrama seems unhelpful here: a veteran editor has identified WP:TE, two editors have identified edit warring, two administrators have raised the WP:OR policy breach, and one is having to explain it more than once. To my mind the issue here isn't Wikidrama. It isn't this single case of WP:OR nor this single case of edit warring. It isn't even restricted to a single article, as JamesBWatson rightly says above. It is either a fundamental long term misunderstanding of Wikipedia, or else a long term WP:TE or even WP:DE problem. I took no pleasure nor satisfaction from launching this ANI. This was a last resort after a lot of grief. I don't like drama. I sincerely look forward to not having to go through this experience again. I look forward to your continued fairness, neutrality and commitment. -Chumchum7 (talk) 16:08, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Evaluation
As an administrator with a bit of experience in handling disputes in this topic area, I consider this request actionable for these reasons: For these reasons, I was about to impose a sanction under the authority of WP:DIGWUREN on Varsovian. However, since Varsovian has now self-reverted the problematic text, I believe that a warning is sufficient: If you, Varsovian, continue to fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process (including the policies cited above), in the Eastern Europe topic area, you may be made subject to blocks, bans or other sanctions according to the cited arbitral remedy without further warning. I believe that this thread can now be closed unless the edit war flares up again.  Sandstein  16:57, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * With the cited edits,, , , , has repeatedly re-added the following text (or variants thereof) to the article : "Davies' statement regarding "the very eve of the parade" contradicts historical records and media from the time", in violation of the policy prohibiting edit-warring.
 * Contrary to the edit summary here, this assertion is not sourced; instead, as is apparent from the discussion above, it represents Varsovian's own opinion about (unnamed) primary sources and Davies' work, in violation of the policy WP:NOR.
 * This unsourced opinion casts a negative light on the professional competence of the historian Norman Davies, a living person, in violation of the policy WP:BLP.
 * That sounds very reasonable to me. Might I suggest that both Chumchum7 and myself (and perhaps Loosmark if he wishes to continue editing this article) agree to post all proposed changes/additions to the article (as it is now) on the talk page and then wait 48 hours to allow for dialogue about the proposed change/addition? Varsovian (talk) 17:04, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Sandstein, thank you. Will you, or any other administrator or team of administrators, now be watching London Victory Parade of 1946 closely to ensure that editors there do not 'fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process (including the policies cited above)'? Or if, in the future, an editor were to perceive such problems among their peers, should they flag that concern here at ANI, on your Talk page, at any other page, or by emailing you? Or should they continue to restrict themselves to standard dispute resolution procedure? Please advise. Thanks, -Chumchum7 (talk) 17:36, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, please could you just explain for me about how WP warnings work. This seems to be the second warning after one already appears to have been applied here after a block here . Was there any counselling of the type described here  ? If there is a next time, and I sincerely hope there isn't, it would be good for me to receive some guidance on how to deal with it. How many warnings do editors usually run up before sanctions are imposed? Thanks again, -Chumchum7 (talk) 17:51, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, you should not assume that administrators will be watching any page. Continued misconduct should be reported to the WP:AE noticeboard in accordance with the procedures documented there. Thank you for pointing out that Varsovian has previously been warned against similar disruption. I overlooked this because it was not logged at the case page and did not contain the word "arbitration" (advice to fellow admins: warnings should be in the standard format). However, given that he has now reverted himself, sanctions are still not required at this time.  Sandstein   19:27, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the clarification. I hadn't heard of the WP:AE noticeboard before, and it is good to know about it. I will use it if necessary. -Chumchum7 (talk) 19:34, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

DigiPokemon2010
seems to be a WP:SPA who is blatantly using Wikipedia as his own webhost. He created two pages: Mehna Region's Complete Poke'dex (w/ the new pokemons of Mehna), a fictional Pokédex listing for what appears to be a made-up Pokémon game, and Drano: The Supreme Dragon, also evidently about the user's own creation. He has been warned about the Drano page before and yet re-created it anyway. Clearly, the warnings aren't getting through to this user, and he's not here to edit in good faith. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 17:53, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Articles gone, and I'll leave a final final warning for the user; please advise if they do it again. (Who the heck names a dragon Drano?) Tony Fox (arf!) 18:44, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Edit-conflicted on the deletions, these are so blatantly made up that they're unambiguously deletable. Will block him if he does it again. ~ mazca  talk 18:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A plumber who's had lots of problems with soldering torches in the past? rdfox 76 (talk) 20:20, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I suggest referring the user to http://pokemon.wikia.com, a dedicated pokemon wiki. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 21:24, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Does the pokemon Wikia host articles on made-up Pokemon? It can hurt more than help to send a user to yet another site that will reject him. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Will the real Orly Taitz please stand up?


Uncertain of where to proceed here. This user account claims to be the real Orly Taitz, and has been leaving scads of personal info on the article talk page as "proof". I left a note on their user page earlier regarding WP:REALNAME, but as the account is continuing to post more personal details, it does not seem that this was heeded. Should the account just be blocked until an identity can be verified? Tarc (talk) 17:36, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Depends if the content violates WP:BLP and/or WP:CITE. Even if it is the real person (I have no idea who it is!) content can't be kept without cites. I remember Bill Bailey's birthday was kept the same despite him tweeting that it was wrong, because it wasn't WP:RS. SGGH ping! 17:39, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I would say that it violates BLP to be giving out phone numbers and personal info on an article talk page in an attempt to prove identity, yes. Tarc (talk) 19:55, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * We could ask her to post a copy of her birth certificate on her talk page. Count Iblis (talk) 21:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * So the question here is whether this is Orly or ORLY? Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:11, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I left her the contact info for article problems and photo submission. AniMate  21:17, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Considering we're all just marxist thugs, I would demand more than just her birth certificate. I want to see her COLB, her license to practice dentistry, license to practice law and of course, no copies allowed.  <b style="color:darkred;">Ravensfire</b> ( talk ) 21:37, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know about anyone else here, but I'm not a Marxist thug. I am, however, a Lennonist slug. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec)'m more of a Trotskyist myself, but I doubt shades of grey matter much in birtherville. Anyways, the account is now blocked, and if it really was Dr. Taitz, then she knows what to to to verify her account. Tarc (talk) 01:14, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ravensfire, considering that at the top of the page you linked to has the disclaimer "The articles posted represent only the opinion of the writers, do not necessarily represent the opinion of Dr. Taitz, ESQ, and Dr. Taitz, ESQ has no means of checking the veracity of all the claims and allegations in the articles", we might not be all Marxist thugs. That sentence alone is proof that website is not a reliable source, & can't be used to confirm anything, possibly even details about Orly Taitz's own life & her campaign. Making it even less reliable than, say, Stormfront which can be used as a source about Stormfront. -- llywrch (talk) 18:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As the post was by Orly, I think it's safe to call it her opinion. <b style="color:darkred;">Ravensfire</b> ( talk ) 12:49, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I've blocked the account until the identity is confirmed by OTRS. Tim Song (talk) 01:09, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd say that there's no need to worry about the posting of phone numbers, as that's the same phone number she uses in her filings to the US District Court. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:38, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Support Tim's action. All joking aside, Taitz is a controversial figure (to put it mildly), who is a prime target for impersonating by some troublemaker. Although her posts to Wikipedia appear to be what the real Orly Taitz might post to Wikipedia, until reasonable proof is provided to confirm her identity it is best to block this account. (And if this is the real Orly Taitz, when she talks to OTRS they can also explain the details about uploading an image with the proper permissions so it can be used, thus solving that problem.) -- llywrch (talk) 18:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, the account was unblocked by Chaser yesterday. I see he is tagged as an OTRS volunteer, so I assume that the real Taitz did make contact and confirm her identity. A note somewhere to that effect from the unblocking admin would have been nice, though. Tarc (talk) 12:58, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Khaled Abu Toameh
This article has been edited by a number of different users and IPs, all of whom make similar edits, deleting reliably sourced information about Khaled Abu Toameh's affiliations with pro-Israel lobby groups. Attempts to reason with these editors on the talk page have come to naught and the article is currently badly formatted as a result of their interventions. I cannot do anything more without violating WP:3RR. If someone could investigate what is going on there, it would be much appreciated.  T i a m u t talk 21:10, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It looks like Abujamil has responded to you on the talk page. I don't think any admin intervention is needed here.  caknuck <sub style="color:black;">°  needs to be running more often  01:56, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, he has responded. But I don't think the issue is resolved. The disputed text remains unincluded, despite its being well sourced and relevant, and there is still the issue of sockpuppets under multiple accounts and IPs, but I guess that is better discussed at WP:SPI?  T i a m u t talk 10:48, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

DRV needs closure by an experienced admin
WP:DRV has now been open for 8 days. It will need an experienced and independent admin to review all the comments and make a decision as to whether or not to overturn the original AfD closure. Mjroots (talk) 08:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * , was thinking about this closure earlier, I'll figure it out and close it shortly ~ mazca  talk 08:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Mjroots (talk) 08:35, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Done, overturned to no consensus. Having difficulty seeing exactly how this disagreement is likely to end; it seems it wasn't a good situation to enforce a merge via AfD so I guess it's almost back at the start. ~ mazca  talk 08:50, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A tricky decision, but one which I agree with, considering that there was originally consensus to split this from the article about the accident in the first place. I've suggested a couple of ways to improve the article on the talk page. Hopefully it can be improved over the next few days. Mjroots (talk) 09:00, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Abuse of process when citing a page for deletion
I am not sure if this is the correct place to raise this matter, but I would like some other pairs of eyes to look at this. The user User:TreasuryTag has a problem with an image which they keep citing for deletion. It is a TV screenshot, and so uses the Non-free television screenshot license. After I had fixed some some minor problems with the license, the user:


 * 1) Cited the image for deletion using ifd
 * 2) Deleted the image from the article
 * 3) Immediately cited the image for deletion using di-orphaned fair use

These actions were all completed within three minutes. The user seems to have declared themselves prosecuting councel, judge, and jury. This has got to be wrong.

I tried to discuss the user's previous attempt to delete this same image on their Talk page, ]. Since the user is now leaving silly messages on my Talk page, I can't face discussing their latest actions with them.

To me, this user seems out of control. As I said above, I would like some other pairs of eyes to look at this. HairyWombat (talk) 16:18, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The image is a clear copyright violation, having no possible justification under our fair-use policies, and has been nominated for deletion where the community can discuss it freely. I am not aware of any "silly" behaviour on my part, and my messages on Wombat's talkpage were friendly yet firm, since s/he seems to misunderstand our civility policy. However, as always, I welcome scrutiny. ╟─ Treasury Tag ► prorogation ─╢ 16:22, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No opinion on the fair use claim. But you cannot remove an image from an article and then claim it's an orphan. Neither is it ok to take an image to IfD and trying to get it speedied via the orphan tag. If you think this needs consensus, IfD is the right way. If you think the image violates copyright, hash it out on the talk page of the article before deleting it. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:42, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Which policy specifies what you've just said? Because WP:3RR seems to champion the immediate removal from articles of "clear copyright violations" even if discussion is underway in a separate venue. (At least that's what I think it means?) ╟─ Treasury Tag ► Woolsack ─╢ 16:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:COMMONSENSE. If you hit such a situation, list the image at Non-free content review, get consensus, and delete it (or not). That's what it's for. Don't fire off a broadside on all venues you can think of - that pisses people off, and rightly so. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:13, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Those messages on the wombat's talk page don't seem silly to me. If you can't face discussing their latest actions with them, then stop editing. We operate on discussion.  Toddst1 (talk) 16:43, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm genuinely unsure if that's what he meant to describe as "silly", because they really aren't... And sorry, if who can't face discussion...? ╟─ Treasury Tag ► Woolsack ─╢ 16:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * (i think toddst1's comment was aimed at hairywombat, not you TT Syrthiss (talk) 17:26, 26 April 2010 (UTC))


 * If you think an image is a copyvio, I think you ought to remove it from the articles until there's been a peer review. However, it is obviously out of line to try to get it deleted as an orphan after you have removed it from linked articles. That is patent gaming of the system. Wait for peer review. --causa sui (talk) 16:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course, the orphan-deletion process takes exactly the same length of time as does the FfD... ╟─ Treasury Tag ► Speaker ─╢ 17:44, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but, if the IfD closes as "keep" and nobody restores the image to the article, then the orphan tag will expire and the image will be removed anyways. Are you going to restore the image yourself? Are you expecting that the IfD closer tracks the history of the pages to restore the images in the correct place with the correct caption? Are you going to say that it's the responsability of other people to make sure that their actions don't delete images that didn't need to be deleted after all? What about people who comment in the IfD, they can't see the image in its proper context to see if it's being used correctly. Please don't remove the images until the IfD closes. Note: if the IfD closes as "Delete", then the image becomes a red link and it will eventually will be removed anyways from the articles.


 * As an apart: you even said in the IfD "It's not even used at the moment!" (emphasis in the original). That's plain disingenuous, since you had removed it yourself right after nominating for IfD. It was being used when you nominated it and you should have left it alone so other people could see how it was being used. You also forgot this common-sense instruction from the IfD page: "If you remove a file from an article, list the article from which you removed it so there can be community review of whether the file should be deleted." --Enric Naval (talk) 18:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Arnoutf terrorizing Fethullah Gulen biography
I have been using Wikipedia as a first source of information for some time. I have been watching Gulen's page due to my academic studies and interest as well. I felt obligated to report now that Arnoutf is terrorizing the biography. Although other editors are complained about him and his edits here before, the case was closed immediately after it was opened. Moreover, all user block requests by Arnoutf immediately approved by admins without any checkuser process which seems to be a standard in Wikipedia. I am kind of suspicious if Arnoutf is a nickname for Jimbo Wales?

I combined and compiled previous complaints in various places here into one list and hoping that it helps to someone to deal with the case.


 * 1) Arnoutf owns the article: He does not collaborate, declare edit wars, instead. He gives impression to naive editors that all other editors should convince him to be able to edit the article.
 * 2) Arnoutf distorts the facts and falsifies information: Arnoutf distort the facts based on his seemingly racist/nastionalistic prejudges. Although the islamineurope reference does not mention "segregation of Turks" in this example, he add this incorrect, falsified information deliberately into the article and linking to the reference as if it is mentioned in the reference. A true encyclopedia editor would consider this as the most embarrassing behavior.
 * 3) Arnoutf alienates editors: Many naive editors are alienated by his disgusting POV pushing. Among recent a few: Hatice w, Gaddarca, Madaya2000, meco, Icaz. Please see the discussion page and archives for the full list. His main tactic seems to be blaming editors of being a sockpuppet and filing a sockpuppet case immediately once someone disapprove his POV version.
 * 4) Arnoutf does not know the topic has no intention to improve the article: Arnoutf does not improve the article nor working on it. He just blocks others from doing so. He only reverts the uncomfortable facts in his perspective from the article. Here is a self statement of the fact that he only policing the article.
 * 5) Arnoutf is vandalizing the page by blanking verified information: Arnoutf is vandalizing the page by blanking verified information and references. The history page is full of such similar logs.
 * 6) Arnoutf does not comply with the Wikipedia policies: Arnoutf disregards Wikipedia policies and set up new rules as he wishes and declare reliable references as invalid.
 * 7) Arnoutf is archiving to hide his edits: Once Arnoutf have an naive editor banned, he archives his discussions to hide the facts. He keep bringing the same issues inconsistently with his earlier statements. In the example of the use of the term 'philosopher', he first accepts the use of the term, then starts arguing the same issue with another naive editor.
 * 8) Arnoutf tragicomically disapproves his own version: The version Arnoutf is fighting against now is actually the version he edited using the information in an existing version before.
 * 9) Arnoutf ignores warnings: Not surprisingly  was already blocked before due to his edit wars on this page but he does continue exactly the same way.

67.201.93.20 (talk) 03:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Sockpuppet investigations/Philscirel/Archive is a useful resource in looking at this dispute. I originally assumed that was just another sock of Philscirel, but all previous IP addresses geolocate to Columbus, Ohio and this IP is from Tennessee. Meatpuppeting still comes to mind.&mdash;Kww(talk) 03:42, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * That sockpuppet link is already provided in my message, actually as an evidence. It would be better to respond after reading the message. Thanks for it anyways. I know it is much easier to ban an editor without following Wikipedia regulations (as you and a few others did before) but will you try to read what I have listed above too? I am sure that you will keep meatpuppeting in mind while doing so.. 67.201.93.20 (talk) 03:51, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Simply put, all this has been discussed, repeatedly in the talk page of the article. The editors who have put up another version of this article have all (without a single exception) been unmasked as sockpuppets of Philscirel; the block I received was my own fault indeed (and my only ever block in over 3 years editins), as during summer there was a 3 week delay in the sockpuppet backlog; and all parties were temporarily blocked for 3RR just to calm down the dispute at that time; I do realise I should have waited out the sockpuppetry case (which was a clear cut one, and resulted in the block of the sockpuppet). Arnoutf (talk) 08:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As usual, Arnoutf does not tell the truth. Almost none of these points are discussed anywhere, and none of these points got any satisfactory answer at all. I urge Arnoutf to provide links for his answers or maybe better summarize his answers to these points right here as listed, instead of nonsense and general remarks like "those are all answered". It should be easy for him, if he is correct! 67.201.93.20 (talk) 09:31, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * This is either a case for WP:RFC or WP:OUCH. I'm leaning towards the latter. Stifle (talk) 08:32, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ouch, I'd say. . Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

EHC returns
Just a heads-up... I've had to reinstate the block on IP as a sock of the abusive user. Previously blocked as a static access point for that individual, all edits since the block expired clearly demonstrate he is trying to get back in again. Articles to watch include those related to Martin, Tyler Perry's House of Payne, and Judge Judy, among others. --Ckatz <sup style="color:green;">chat <sub style="color:red;">spy  07:53, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I denied an related unblock yesterday, methinks ... ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 18:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

User:BYSO
New user has been adding copyrighted material from the Boston Youth Symphony Orchestras website to the article. I pointed them to WP:Donating copyrighted material, but there's no indication that they've followed the steps there, or even bothered reading it. I reverted the copyvio material three times, so if someone else could try to get them to listen, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:22, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks like they've been blocked as username violation, so at the very least they'll be confined to their talk page for the time being... Might prompt them to read the material you've provided. – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 14:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hope so. I have the greatest respect for the group -- saw them perform Mahler's Second with Maureen Forrester herself a few years back.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:34, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Looks like they've returned as, but without reading up on our copyright policies first. :-( --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:16, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have issued a short block. – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 18:22, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

WT:Words to watch
Could an admin read over this page?

There is a merge proposal and an RfC which has been closed and implemented by two of the participants, despite the presence of substantive and procedural disputes. The RfC has only been open for a few days, and was only advertized seriously one or two days ago, and some people are already declaring a fait accompli.

I have objected, but am leaving (I appear to have stepped on the fringes of an ArbCom decision); would a genuinely neutral admin please intervene? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:46, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Alpha Phi Delta
I was going to take this to WP:THIRD, but recent edits by the other party have demonstrated WP:OWN issues as well, so decided to take it here instead.

On, content of a directory of all fraternity chapters has been removed by a couple parties (myself included) and restored by an IP who appears to be the same person as. Their primary argument for keeping it has been WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.

I can understand listing any individual chapters that meet WP:N, but an indiscriminate list just isn't appropriate. The user has also restored lists of "Notable Members" that have not yet been demonstrated to meet WP:BIO requirements (no refs and no articles). When restoring content most recently, the user inserted the edit summary "If you are not in this Fraternity please do not delete with out reaching out to me first." - showing the ownership issue.

A discussion was started on the article talk page, but the user has thus far only posted to my user talk page.

Would appreciate some additional eyes on the article and any comments on the article talk page discussion and/or here. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:48, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * User has been notified of this ANI discussion. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:54, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm in agreement with removing the directory. I did a basic cleanup of section headers and notable members, per the Law of Unintended Consequences. tedder (talk) 17:07, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks much better now. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 18:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

User:Trueman31
Just under an hour ago, 6 accounts were blocked for being sockpuppets of Trueman31. Trueman31 first appeared on 7 July 2007 and was blocked indefinitely on 3 September 2007. Since then, Trueman31 has created many sock accounts to vandalise various articles on Wikipedia. I believe most of the articles vandalised are usually EastEnders characters. One of Trueman31's traits while using the new accounts is to copy and paste the talk page of User:AnemoneProjectors to their talk page. He has also copied another user's talk page who reverted some of their edits and today he copied mine, which I found to be quite creepy.

I came here to ask if anything can be done to stop Trueman31 from creating anymore accounts and to put an end to this. - JuneGloom07    Talk?  17:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

User:Ernie Kimble
is going around posting a phone number on several different articles, claiming to be the person whose number they're posting, but with a different name from the User ID name they're using. I don't think they're here for good purposes. Woogee (talk) 21:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Stop x nuvola with clock.svg User(s) blocked.. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

User Mansoorelahi
User:Mansoorelahi has written autobiographical notes and posted them as articles at Mansoor elahi and at Mansoorelahi. this would be a straightforward matter of tagging for speedy deletion but for the fact that at least three times he has moved User talk:Mansoorelahi into main space as one or other of those two articles, so that speedy deletion would get rid of the edit history of the articles. I have posted to User talk:Mansoorelahi, attempting to explain to the user that this action is not acceptable. Can some admin try to restore the edit history? JamesBWatson (talk) 21:12, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've deleted and WP:SALTed the spam pages, and move-protected his talk page, I would imagine that will be the end of it but if he does it again it will be time for a block. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

WP:FOOTSHOT
is harassing User:Wispanow for hours on many user-talk pages   and did not not stop. He was warned:. He was additionally warned several times by me (Wispanow).
 * User:Dave1185

I request to block him 77.186.81.65 (talk) 21:54, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

was blocked without any reason. Just for repeating the rude comments of others:. The block was made by Edgar181:.
 * User:Wispanow

I request to immediately unblock him. 77.186.81.65 (talk)

blocked User:Wispanow : without any reason. Just because Wispanow was requesting User:Dave1185 to stop harassment.
 * User:Edgar181

I request to block him .77.186.81.65 (talk) 21:54, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * IP blocked 24h for fairly obvious block evasion of Wispanow. —DoRD (talk) 22:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

User:Abductive long term disruption
Abductive just showed up on something on my edit list and edit warred his way to a block. While it is his first block, I took a look and for an account that isn't even a year old he's had a major amount of disruption. An SPI was opened on him last year. It was closed without action. However, he did admit to using multiple accounts to mass nominate AfDs/prod articles. This created at least a couple AN/I threads and a substantial bit of disruption as most of these nominations were apparently bad. Sockpuppet_investigations/Abductive/Archive. In regards to the socking, Abductive also has on his user page the claim that he's been here for over 3 years. One account was made last July, one last May. Which means there is quite likely at least one more account out there he didn't admit to using. Since he's using the current account disruptively, it is likely a disruptive sock. I don't know that I could file an SPI though since I don't have the foggiest who the other account might be.

Issue two is the edit warring. He was just blocked for edit warring on Asian fetish. Making odd claims about how you can't name the author of a study unless he has an article himself. First claiming it was WP:UNDUE then claiming it was vanity, and then claiming I must have a COI because I wasn't buying his bizarre arguments, a bad faith assumption and insult, frankly. He was blocked for 31 hours, but after a quick check I found out that this isn't his first edit war. He was warned back in July of last year about edit warring. and seemed to show a better understanding for how 3RR worked than someone who'd only been here a couple months and had never been warned about it before. Only a month ago he was involved in a big edit war on an article which was stopped with page protection. He also engaged in an edit war back in October and when he wasn't getting his way he again resorted to making personal attacks. This resulted in another page protection.

So in less than a year, he's engaged in 3 or 4 edit wars, helped to get 2 pages locked, and disruptively mass nominated/prodded a ton of articles. With this behaviour and the claim about how long he's been on wikipedia I feel like this might be a returned blocked/banned user. At the least I feel he should be restricted to 1RR on any article given his propensity for edit warring, but I also think a greater look needs to be taken at the SP issues, unfortunately I don't think SPI would be remotely useful as I don't think it keeps year old IP data.--Crossmr (talk) 01:30, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no comment as yet on the substance of the complaint, however, I find it odd that the block for edit warring came almost 7 hours after the last revert, though there is no question that the 3RR was violated. I think it might be an idea to have this conversation when Abductive is able to speak directly in his defence, but in fairness, you have notified him of the thread. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   01:46, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * He was reported to the 3RR noticeboard as is the normal process. The only reason his editing stopped was that I disengaged and have for now, let him have his way. I've also informed him that if he wants to make a statement it will be copied over. There is a history of edit warring and insults that goes well beyond the current situation.--Crossmr (talk) 02:01, 18 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Can you evidence the history of edit warring and insults with multiple diffs please. Please can you explain why you do not appear to have addressed your concerns about socking with Abductive? Spartaz Humbug! 12:47, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That is already there. Click through. If you'd like the exact diff where he insulted someone last time, . That edit war was stopped by a page protection before it went completely out of hand you can see the full ANI discussion above. As for the SP issues, those were already raised with him and that was all he disclosed, but that doesn't seem to be honest given his claim on his userpage.--Crossmr (talk) 13:26, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The first diff does not show a violation of the 3RR, the second appears to have been two reverts and the third also appears not to have been a 3RR violation. This out of a total of 12,000 edits in 18 months. I suggest you need something a little stronger then this and please can you show a diff where YOU addressed the sock allegation directly with Abductive before raising it here? I do agree that Abductive could do with improving their civility from time to time. Spartaz Humbug! 13:45, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Spartaz, though at least this editor's insult made me chuckle, which I always say "if your going to be uncivil at least make it funny" so I'd like to see him be a bit more creative if there's a next time. Is there any risk if Abductive is unblocked long enough so he can actually contribute to his defence here at AN/I? Yea, transcribing his responses over here isnt much of an ability to defend himself or contact others who may be able to help him in his defence, or directly confront his accusers in a meaningful way (and hopefully insult-free). Personally I say let him be and unblock him.Camelbinky (talk) 15:20, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no requirement that he be unblocked and AN/I has a long history of transcribing statements from blocked users if the need is there. Encouraging uncivil behaviour isn't exactly a compelling position.--Crossmr (talk) 15:24, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * May 2009-Now is not 18 months. That is 11 months. In that time, he's socked and been disruptive. he admitted that. I'm now pointing out that the extent of what he admitted to isn't the complete picture. I'm under no obligation to discuss it with him further when bringing it here as the part of a bigger package. The first diff shows he was warned about 3RR and seemed to show an understanding of it (without being linked to it) beyond what a user 2 months into editing wikipedia should show. Its evidence that this is probably not his first account. One doesn't need to violate 3RR to be edit warring. I never said he violated 3RR that many times just that he'd been involved in 3 or 4 edit wars, 2 of which resulted in page protection, and 2 of which resulted in him insulting other users when he couldn't get his way.
 * The first was in reference to this where he was basically fighting with another editor to try and get some tag (any tag) onto the article. Which is similar to what happened now. He was trying to remove content for some reason, any reason and when it was apparent he didn't have consensus he just edit warred and insulted until blocked.
 * The second edit has 4. Edit warring isn't just reverting, it is undoing another person's edits. He has his first edit where he removed several entries that another user removed, that is 1, then he has 2 reverts, that is 3. Then he changes a bunch of stuff later on that wisdom power changed. That is 4 separate series of edits undoing other peoples work. If you really need a 3RR violation, there you go., , , 4 times undoing anothers work in less than 24 hours.
 * In the last one, he gets to 3 and the page is protected before it can go further. There was only 19 minutes between his last revert and the page locking. The other editor he was fighting with wasn't watching the page like a hawk and reverting immediately. He was obviously edit warring if the admin felt the need to protect the page.--Crossmr (talk) 15:22, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course I deny these allegations. "Almost" violated 3RR? That means I didn't. With these other claimss, find me anybody with as many edits as I have who hasn't rubbed somebody the wrong way. As for the dispute that did get me blocked, it was pure 3RR, not a violation of WP:CIVIL, nor was it about the usual politics, religion, spam or ethnic stuff that graces ANI daily. User:Crossmr has a major WP:OWNERSHIP problem with the Asian fetish article, whereas I'm just trying to whip it into better shape. A thankless task--the article has been through 6 AfDs and has attracted some serious sockpuppeteers. Abductive  (reasoning) 21:08, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I just demonstrated where you violated 3RR last month. Do you deny undoing peoples edits those 4 times? Your contribs are a matter of public record. The first article didn't see you violate 3RR but you were edit warring to put "something" on the page, you just didn't know what but were editing it back and forth anyway instead properly considering what should go on the page or discussing it on the talk page. In the last one you only avoided a 3RR violation because the page was locked. Accusing someone of a COI without evidence is an assumption of bad faith and uncivil. The only ownership problem with the article is demonstratively you and hippo43 who have both been blocked for edit warring over it. You are too quick to push your version making sniping comments rather than engage in meaningful discussion. You seem to have zero concept of WP:BRD and would much rather fight over it than actually discuss it. You have a history of it that extends almost back to your account creation. Coupled with your admitted sock puppeting, your account has basically been disruptive for its entire history. You've also failed to comment on the account issues. Your user page claims you've been here over 3 years, both accounts you've had were only made last year. Are you still using another account?--Crossmr (talk) 00:20, 19 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I know nothing of his history so won't comment, but I fully support Abductive on the recent issue at Asian fetish, and I'm concerned by Crossmr's focus on the individual, not the issue. Crossmr has refused to discuss specific issues relating to content, aggressively and high-handedly reverted to his preferred version of a long-contentious article. Similarly he has referred to edit warring in my past (in this discussion and elsewhere) presumably trying to undermine me as a contributor, rather than deal directly with the content dispute, and has criticised me above without notifying me. If this all leads to wider scrutiny of this article, so much the better. --hippo43 (talk) 12:59, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I categorically disagree with Hippo43's characterization of Crossmr's actions. Crossmr has been dispassionate and professional concerning his interaction with Abductive, who obviously has a history of disrupting other pages in unacceptable ways. And Crossmr has repeatedly (the requests would be approaching about 50 times or so by now) requested that both Hippo43 and Abductive give specific information to back up their claims and demands. They have not done that. And this is entertaining: "Crossmr has refused to discuss specific issues relating to content." Wow. That is simply not true. Please refer to the discussion page for the proof. In fact, both Crossmr and myself have repeatedly and extensively made efforts to discuss the issues in a democratic fashion on the discussion page. Crossmr's "focus on the individual" is of course related to the fact that Abductive has insisted pressing positions that frankly make little sense; Crossmr, to his credit, has kept his composure. In the end, both Hippo43 and Abductive have incessantly insisted that they have the right to completely change the makeup of a very controversial section that has represented the status quo for years. However, the burden to provide proof for the need for that change is imminent, and the burden belongs to them — not anyone else. The problem is that they cannot provide that proof. So because they will not simply acknowledge this and provide a lettered response concerning proof that has been requested, they just keep making the same statements that do not represent arguments, or content that makes their case, but only the vague pretense of such. And it wastes everyone's time in the process. Computer1200 (talk) 04:19, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Just for clarification. You support someone edit warring to push their position? This thread is about abductive's behaviour that goes well beyond this particular article. If you want to discuss the particulars of the article feel free to go to the talk page. you'll see ample consensus seeking in all the various sections titled "proposal" all started by me.--Crossmr (talk) 14:15, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I've asked abductive if he has anything further to add but since he's continued editing (and warring on the article in addition to contributing to the consensus discussion) and hasn't responded I guess he doesn't. He clearly violated 3RR this time, he violated it last month. In october he got a page locked by his actions and last summer he was warned over fighting on a page. In addition to that he admitted socking last summer to mass nominate/prod articles (the vast majority of which didn't stand). For me, that's far too much disruption. In addition I've asked him directly about the account issues and he's carried on editing without commenting on that. If there is some legitimate reason for his changing accounts and not wanting to reveal the old one, that is fine, but the fact that one sock was already brought out of the drawer is a problem.--Crossmr (talk) 00:53, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I would like to note that with regards to Sockpuppet investigations/Abductive/Archive, that was a clear username change there. Secondly, that was a bad-faith SPI report made my serial sockpuppeteer User:Azviz, who was at the time harassing him and User:DreamGuy. –MuZemike 03:38, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't shoot the messenger. He still used more than one account to mass prod/nominate a ton of articles which didn't stick. Neither account goes beyond May 2009, so the account(s) that he's used between November 10, 2006 and May 2009 are unknown. We don't know if he's still using them or not since we don't know which ones they are(were). If there is a legitimate reason for him changing accoutns he's free to email an admin or arbcom and report the change and they could comment here and say it is fine. However, due to the initial disruptive behaviour and the continued disruptive behaviour it doesn't really seem like it.--Crossmr (talk) 04:49, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I wasn't trying to (and apologies if I felt like I was), but I wanted to make that clear that Abductive and DreamGuy were clearly being baited and harassed by an indefinitely blocked sockpuppeteer during that time. As far as the other account is concerned, please see Administrators' noticeboard/Archive195 and (the latter is repeated in that SPI case). –MuZemike 02:09, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

After debunking one of his bizarre claims in the current dispute where he continually claimed there wasn't a single other article on wikipedia that included researcher's names, he's gone through to make a ton of pointy and WP:BATTLEGROUND edits. He's also shown absolutely zero understanding of WP:CONSENSUS and WP:BRD and continues to disrupt across multiple articles. I provided him with 2 google searches which showed tons of wikipedia articles using the phrase "study conduct/done by". His response was to run to those articles as fast as he could and remove as many mentions of that as he could. ,, , , etc you can see his contrib history for today with a full list of all the articles he's tried to do this to. He knows there is no consensus for this change, I've asked him several times to cite a policy or guideline for it and he can't. Each time it is a new excuse as to why a researcher's name can't be on an article, but I think one tells us a lot. I have seen (and man, is it pathetic) junior professors post their mention in a Wikipedia article on their doors This would seem to indicate some personal interest/bias in the situation. especially since he's utterly failed to properly cite any policy which says researchers names shouldn't appear in the article and they should only appear in the footnotes. He's reverted the Asian fetish article twice again today despite the on-going discussion to try and reach consensus on the article.--Crossmr (talk) 04:59, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Somebody tell this user he doesn't own articles, and that he shouldn't wikihound. He really isn't getting it. Abductive  (reasoning) 05:07, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This your defense for making pointy battleground edits across multiple articles? You might want to look in the mirror. You have no consensus for your edits. You have been asked repeatedly to provide a policy or citation for your position and can't do it. You can't cite a single passage on wikipedia that says researchers shouldn't be named in articles and rather than discuss it you continue to edit war over it. As we can clearly see here, and . What you're not getting is that your opinion isn't the only one and if you want to change the status quo, you need to gain consensus. You've been told to read WP:BRD but at this point I don't know if you're just not capable or what the problem is. You were bold, you were reverted. You should engage in discussion. Instead you continue to revert and push it on to may other articles knowing your opinion is opposed. This is further evidence of your on-going and long term disruptive behaviour. We're still waiting for you to explain what happened with your account between Nov 10, 2006 and now.--Crossmr (talk) 05:17, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That is how you characterize it. As I make edits to remove just the inline mentions of non-notable researchers who are already credited in the refs, you follow me around reverting me and say that I'm making a battleground? I don't have to engage in discussion with you on articles that aren't on your watchlist. As you yourself have demonstrated, if only ~2000 articles out of 3 million use the "in a study conducted by" language, then using such language is not the norm. I have already discovered that most such usage "in a study conducted by" is followed by "UNESCO", "an NGO" and so forth, not the names of non-notable scientists who most likely edited the pages themselves. Abductive  (reasoning) 05:29, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes you are. You knew before you made those edits that your position was contested. You knew after I reverted 2 of them, that the position was contested. But you continued to make the edits and you continued to revert instead of enter discussion. You knew I was watching those 2 articles, because I reverted you. You ignored the community standard WP:BRD and continue to edit war your way across wikipedia to try and push your point of view. As I've already pointed out the absence of that sentence on an article doesn't prove the community disagrees with its usage. Your claim was no articles used it, you were wrong. Now in an attempt to correct that you're going to try and edit as many articles as you can to remove it. You've been asked to stop and discuss it and you've refused. This is your disruptive behaviour.--Crossmr (talk) 05:33, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If mentioning the people who discovered a fact was used inline for every fact throughout Wikipedia, it would take me 3,262,608 x about 15 minutes per article, or 93 years of solid editing to remove them all. Abductive  (reasoning) 05:39, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yet again your failed logic. Absence of a piece of text in an article isn't proof of consensus from the community. Still waiting for that citation, or do you want to continue to try and distract rather than actually proving this mystical consensus you claim? Your claim was about naming researchers, not everyone who ever discovered a fact. You see, each time the story changes because you have nothing to support your position except your unending willingness to continue to edit war instead of discuss it.--Crossmr (talk) 05:43, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I really don't think so. Studies are by researchers, yet inline language in Wikipedia articles naming the researchers who conducted the studies is vanishingly rare, especially if the researchers don't have a Wikipedia article. By contrast, naming researchers in references is policy. This suggests consensus, perhaps unwritten or even unthinking, that one shouldn't give non-notable people so much "play" in articles. Abductive  (reasoning) 06:04, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What policy? Please cite the policy that indicates researchers are only to be named in the footnotes. Still waiting. Another story change, we're going to need a play book here soon to keep up all the various lines you've tried to use to claim this shouldn't happen without actually providing a citation. Let's not forget that 3 of the 4 researchers you claimed were non-notable that started your latest disruptive edit warring over actually meet our notability requirements. You'd know if you'd have actually checked. I wonder how many others you've removed meet the guidelines or did you bother to check before removing their names?--Crossmr (talk) 06:08, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As I have told you many times, it's WP:UNDUE, in particular WP:UNDUE. And you are characterizing my contructive edits to articles you only found by checking my contribs as disruptive and edit warring. You are completely mistaken about the notability of the researchers. Finally, I did not remove them from the article(s), just formatted them into refs (if they weren't already in the refs). Haven't you noticed that no admin has taken your side? Abductive  (reasoning) 06:32, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And as I've told you that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand. Have you actually read what you just linked to? Your claim was that policy stated they should be listed in the footnotes. Where is that in the text you've just linked to? It isn't there. Your second link has absolutely no bearing on this situation at all. it is talking about aesthetic opinion. You're not removing names that have anything to do with aesthetic opinion. But it shows how little you seem to understand the policy you're clinging to like a life-raft. You are removing the names of researchers who conducted research. Some of whom are notable. Like 3 from the article you got blocked for edit warring over. And why don't you check out Flávio Henrique Caetano you'll find plenty of google news, books and scholar hits for him. Its unfortunately not english, and I don't know how common that name is but it comes up enough to be at least worth checking out. Especially before claiming he isn't notable.--Crossmr (talk) 06:46, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * and here he is finally admitting he has no consensus for his actions . If he had the consensus he claimed he did, he'd know where it is and wouldn't need to look for it. He's basically been making up argument after argument on things that have no real relationship to the issues and edit warring on multiple articles over it.--Crossmr (talk) 07:03, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Crossmr is the one making things up. I have been repeating the same argument, using different words, a variety of statistics, examples and links, in a vain attempt to get this user to see my point of view. As can be seen, of the four people arguing on the talk page, 2 hold one position and 2 hold another. Everything else is just Wikihounding and tenditious editing on Crossmr's part. Abductive  (reasoning) 07:13, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That isn't what you just claimed was it? Everyone can see your edit. Or do you want to continue to try and lie? To tell the truth, I have not looked for a proper "citation" for the consensus I claim, what part of that is made up? Still waiting on the name of the other accounts by the way. Your argument has been all over the place. You've refused to gain consensus and even after being blocked you continued to try and push your way on the article without consensus. Please enlighten us to what the passage on aesthetic opinions on creative works of art has to do with researchers names being in the article in conjunction with the studies they've produced. The tendentious editing comes from your unwillingness to see a discussion to the end before trying to force your opinion onto multiple articles by edit warring and even when you participate in a discussion to provide evidence to support your position. You just admitted you didn't look for the proper source which basically means you don't want to or can't provide it.--Crossmr (talk) 07:21, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As I previously stated, the consensus is in the form of millions of articles that do not give prominence to individual researchers, but instead use the established reference formats. I stated that this consensus is unwritten, but that does not mean it isn't the consensus. Abductive  (reasoning) 07:55, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No you clearly stated you didn't look for the consensus. studies aren't used in millions of articles on wikipedia so it would be unreasonable to expect them to give prominence to things they don't use. Unless you've actually got evidence of mass removal of these kinds of sentences unchallenged or with discussions showing consensus agreed with their removal, you have no consensus.--Crossmr (talk) 08:11, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't look because you Wikilawyer everything, and because I use abductive reasoning. What I try to do is educate. As for my actions or statements being unchallenged, how much admin inaction here does it take for you to get the message? Abductive  (reasoning) 08:17, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

No. you didn't look because it doesn't exist. Your juggling on the Asian Fetish talk page is plenty evidence of that. You're concocting the most elaborate and asinine arguments I've ever seen. Citing completely unrelated polices and guidelines coupled with what almost appears to be intentional misunderstanding of them to try and support your arguments rather than cite the consensus you claim you have.--Crossmr (talk) 08:24, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ♫ Nobody's listening to us ♫♪. Abductive  (reasoning) 08:36, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * When you two are done, any concise diffs or condensed explanations might be more useful than the above. Are there perhaps a few places we could focus on? Shadowjams (talk) 08:41, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

For what it is worth User:Abductive previously edited as User:Joey the Mango. He put some strange comments on my talk page but I can't say that I found them objectionable enough to complain about. Xxanthippe (talk) 09:37, 20 April 2010 (UTC).

Concise diffs

 * Last summer it was noted that Abductive used multiple accounts to mass-prod a bunch of articles Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive196, by bunch over 150. They were all contested. AN/I shot the messenger because he was a sock, but it doesn't change what abductive did. Disruptive socking. At that time it was also noted that he refused to disclose old accounts and if you follow this discussion he ducks the question every time, but his user page indicates he's been here 2.5 years longer than his account.
 * Around the same time, he got in a dispute with an editor here . Not a 3RR violation, but he was going back and forth without discussion.
 * In october 2009 he was involved in another edit war that was stopped with page protection before he could technically violate 3RR Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive573 It was also noted he was uncivil making a personal attack.
 * Last month in March he violated 3RR, , , the page was locked shortly there after. His violation was missed.
 * just recently he was blocked on Asian fetish for violating 3RR. After being unblocked he made a contribution to the consensus building discussion we were having, but followed that up with trying to push his version back into the article  twice. Before being blocked he insinuated with evidence that I had some kind of COI when he wasn't getting his way . this was an assumption of bad faith and I consider it a personal attack.
 * During the discussion he brought up the point that there were no articles which had researchers names in them with the study. I provided a couple google links showing plenty, his response was to start making disputed, WP:POINT and WP:BATTLEGROUND edits to multiple articles., , . See contribs, he's done this to 7 or 8 articles. He knew his position was disputed but reverted any opposition and carried on with other articles.
 * After I reverted a couple of this indicating there was no consensus to remove these names, he accused me of wikihounding and reverted again. Ignorinig WP:BRD.,.
 * He's repeatedly claimed consensus yet each time he's asked for it he refuses to provide the link because he doesn't want to look for it or claims I'll just wikilawyer it.
 * Knowing that there is no consensus for his assertion and that it is disputed and still failing to provided evidence of his consensus he just tried to push it on a featured article . Basically anything that gets mentioned as support he will try to edit out.
 * While a discussion is on-going on one page that shows that users don't support his POV, he uses mis-leading edit summaries on other articles to push it.

Maybe a few more shortly.--Crossmr (talk) 12:20, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I should also note that his edit war last month, this month and his pointy and battleground edits all seem to center around academics he thinks are not notable. Couple with his statement here about "juniour professors" . It would seem like its a hot button issue for him.--Crossmr (talk) 12:25, 20 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Quick point to Abductive about "consensus" regarding the names of authors; look at Court of Chancery. That's an FA; one of our highest-quality articles. That's an article which has been peer reviewed, and the idea that it is high-quality and does not violate policy has reached consensus. You'll notice authors' names are mentioned when they've opined. Ironholds (talk) 12:34, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have made an example edit (reverted by Ironholds using automation and the single word No) with a concise explanation of my reasoning on the talk page to the Court of Chancery article, which is easier to wade through than the mess in Asian fetish. Ironholds may not agree, but I think my reasons are sound. Abductive  (reasoning) 18:36, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The fact that your behaviour is at ANI and the (admittedly small) consensus at the talkpage says you're wrong may make you want to think twice about your quote unquote "sound" reasons. Ironholds (talk) 19:33, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh I think twice often. For example, the phrase "according to academics" occurs in only 4 Wikipedia articles. "According to Professor" occurs in only 347 of Wikipedia's 3 million articles. In my discussion with you in Court of Chancery, I suspect that your opinion is colored by the way this stylistic concern was brought to your attention, and you might have reacted differently if I had just made the edit de novo. Abductive  (reasoning) 19:45, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As mentioned above, judging some form of WP natural law from statistics doesn't work. And no, I'm pretty much the same all the time. Again, have you considered that since nobody is agreeing with you, you might be wrong? Ironholds (talk) 19:49, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Before User:Crossmr went on his fishing expedition, the talk page was tied 2:2, with Hippo43 taking the same position as I did. Also, if you look through the article history of Asian fetish, Hippo43 has been struggling with many POV editors and socks, alongside Crossmr. Questions were raised about the appropriateness of including a study of racial preferences in dating in an article on sexual fetishization of Asian women, concerns which Crossmr shouts down. The treatment of this study has been given steadily more prominence in the article, to the point that it is the majority of the text, and that's when I started to try to trim it back a bit, per WP:UNDUE. This issue revolves around WP:UNDUE. I say that using the names of researchers inline lends a certain weight to the statement that may or may not be justified. In spite of the fact that WP:OWN is a policy, many people own articles and cannot see that there may be legitmate concerns. Abductive  (reasoning) 01:56, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The fishing expedition which is showing you don't have the consensus you claimed you did and refuse to cite? The issue revolves around what appears to be your personal bias. Your two latest edit wars, your combative edits this time around, your casual comment about juniour professors on the talk page all show some kind of contempt for academics you don't deem worthy. Even knowing there was opposition to your position you just went and tried to change a featured article to push your point of view. you've been trying to dance around this for awhile now and providing all kinds of ludicrous and borderline disruptive answers as part of your reasoning. Claiming that you can't find a certain sentence pattern in some required imaginary number of articles as consensus that it shouldn't exist in any article is akin to saying your position is right because you're wearing blue pants. Your latest argument centered around the fact that somehow a notability guideline for article creation meant that we couldn't name a studies author in the article text. Naming the authors and/or universities involved in a study has absolutely nothing to do with WP:UNDUE and everything to do with presenting a clear picture to the reader.--Crossmr (talk) 04:49, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As further evidence of your doing whatever you want regardless of what other users say: after two users explained to you that it is perfectly normal and correct to identify who it is that is making statements, claims, etc and that it is not a problem with WP:WEASEL, you went and gutted one article changing several statements from being attributed to a particular person or sources point of view to blanket facts. . While he did remove a couple "some people say" kind of references, the vast majority of the ones he removed were named sources. He's basically providing false edit summaries. Claiming to be removing "according to's" per WEASEL, when in fact WEASEL only says you should remove the ones that are unattributed and unclear. Named sources don't fall under that.--Crossmr (talk) 07:53, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * So are the two studies on the GA Theodore Kaczynski.--Crossmr (talk) 12:53, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see any WP:UNDUE weighting in the Theodore Kaczynski article. Abductive  (reasoning) 18:36, 20 April 2010 (UTC)


 * A few thoughts about the diffs above. I don't have a stake in this issue nor do I want to engage in a blow-by-blow regarding the below. I'll make a few specific points though. The two ANI's up there don't bother me. In fact, aside from an isolated uncivil comment (it really wasn't that uncivil either), they're entirely appropriate. It's not 3RR to keep removing vandalism or spam. Similarly the List of University of Toronto people edits are essentially an IP (that changes) attempting to add inappropriate redlinks to a list page, something that had previously been discussed a lot by Abductive and others on the Talk page. In that case he RVed 2 times, then sent the IP to the page. I don't see why that's a problem. Similarly, the "mass prodding" was to a whole set of address pages that a sock puppet account then had issue with. I don't think anyone else called it disruptive.


 * The James R. Davila stuff is a little pushy, and should have been discussed somewhere other than in edit summaries. The proper move would have been for Abductive to have undone Avraham's RV with a note to go to the talk page. If Avraham continued to remove it after that, then take appropriate action. Neither of those are model behavior, but nor are either of those fatal. That incident was almost a year ago too.


 * What is inappropriate are the edits that got him blocked, and the similar ones removing researcher names. I agree with Ironholds on some of those details, but that's not the point of discussion here. There is a tendency to be a little pointy about some of these recent edits. My conclusion is that there are some legitimate complaints regarding this recent trend (especially in the 3R situation, which after the first change was explained there was ongoing discussion), but Crossmr's claims regarding the past edits are either without merit, or minor problems.


 * I think Abductive should cool down on these "Professor X says..." edits for a while. If they're going to be made across a bunch of articles, there should be a central debate about it somewhere. As for the SPI stuff, you should put that over at SPI and leave this other stuff out of it (or else I pity the clerk who has to wade through all of that). Shadowjams (talk) 23:29, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Just a couple notes, the admin who protected the page last October specifically said "but also got carried away in his response to reinsertions of the kind that got the article deleted in the first place". The reinsertions might not have been appropriate but the admin felt that Abductive got carried away anyway. This is more about his response to challenges to his editing. At the toronto article only the first 2 edits were explicitly over redlinks with the IP, the next two were reverts of Wisdompower. To me it shows that he doesn't handle opposition to his POV well, which is what is happening again now. While I don't find those two events to be huge problems, I just find them to be indicative of a on-going trend that with this account.--Crossmr (talk) 00:14, 21 April 2010 (UTC)


 * And the WP:TLDR award goes to... You guys! Serioisly, have you noticed that everyone else seems to have tuned out a while back here? Dare I suggest you do the same and just try to avoid one another for a while... Beeblebrox (talk) 05:10, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That's not particularly helpful and since the addition of the concise diffs section we've been getting some helpful feedback.--Crossmr (talk) 05:23, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Beeblebrox is right but so are you. The frustration here though is that the disagreements appear to be largely personal. It's not long til someone says "this isn't an administrator issue", which is mostly true at this point. We'd all appreciate any remaining issues be boiled down to some core contingency and those be funneled to the right place.


 * Look, you're both good editors, but even the best of us make mistakes from time to time. The question is if Abductive, takes this to heart, and similarly if Crossmr does too. This isn't blame... and someone else may still do something about it too. But notwithstanding that, I'd hope you both try to discuss things a little bit more. You two know enough to be incredibly productive, or incredibly disruptive. Not that I think either of you are doing the latter, but you know the game, so please understand that if the rules are applied somewhat more rigorously to this issue, it's because of that. Shadowjams (talk) 09:05, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There is nothing personal here. I've rarely ever edited the same article as abductive . 1 of those few articles we've both edited was like 4 years apart. I brought this here because I saw an editor who repeatedly edited against consensus, and refused to properly discuss issues before hitting the revert button. Since I brought this here you've seen him continue the disputed edits knowing they're disputed and even doing so on a FA. You've suggested he should cut that out unless he's going to start a central discussion to get consensus on it. Continually pushing POV without properly seeking consensus when you know your edits are disputed is an administrator issue. It is why I brought it here. If he's going to cut that out and engage in proper consensus building discussions and adhere to WP:BRD I've got no issues dropping it. But if he's going to just blindly revert any opposition to his POV we're just going to be back here tomorrow.--Crossmr (talk) 11:13, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Request for administrative actions
Which as I expected brings us right back here. Yet again Abductive is doing whatever he wants regardless of who speaks out against him. As I pointed out yesterday Abductive ignored the opinions of experienced editors and used misleading edit summaries to change another article. After an IP (which he assumed was me and was wrong, reverted him for legitimate reasons) instead of WP:BRD he just reverted and made bad faith accusations. The blind reversion and bad faith accusations need to stop.--Crossmr (talk) 04:59, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Shadowjams suggested above that these edits were not a good idea and that he should stop until a central discussion was held on the issue. After trying to push the change on an FA, he was told there was no problem with the researchers name being inline by two different editors.,. It is clear Abductive has no consensus to make these changes. So he went off to several other articles and made those changes. I said I'd let it drop if was willing to edit inline with policies and guidelines but its apparent he isn't. So far, he's violated: This has to stop.--Crossmr (talk) 05:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Here he claims to be removing entries per WEASEL, but WEASEL addresses using words like "according to some" he only removed 2 of those and removed 4 instances where those statements were attributed to individuals. This was just explained to him that it was okay and that he shouldn't make these edits
 * he does it again
 * and a third one here
 * An IP (which he assumes bad faith and assumes its me, feel free to run a CU) comes along and reverts him with explanation., , ,
 * Ignoring WP:BRD Abductive continues his WP:BATTLEGROUND edits, assumes bad faith and insinuates the IP is me, threatens the IP on his talk page for reverting him, and then reverts all of the articles., ,
 * WP:POINT
 * WP:CONSENSUS
 * WP:BATTLEGROUND
 * WP:AGF
 * WP:BRD
 * WP:3RR in the last week.
 * How did I insinuate that an IP was you? This claim is bogus. Abductive  (reasoning) 03:36, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * By slapping him with the same bad faith warning and using the same verbiage to dismiss his edits?--Crossmr (talk) 04:25, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hardly evidence that I was saying it was you. Abductive  (reasoning) 04:42, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * But plenty of evidence to support you are acting in bad faith and ignoring WP:BRD and WP:CONSENSUS.--Crossmr (talk) 04:47, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Lionel Hutz: "Well, Your Honor. We've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence." Abductive  (reasoning) 05:07, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Your edits are right there where you accuse him of wikihounding you and threaten him on the talk page. Are you telling us you didn't make those edits? Was someone else using your account? Another lost password? How about the fact that you went out and made those first edits in the face of growing opposition to your point of view which you still can't cite a consensus on? You're right people should read your edits, because it is clear as day that you have no regard for other people's point of view and feel entitled to revert any page to your preferred version regardless of discussion and in violation of the policies and guidelines of wikipedia. While there was only small connected evidence before this began, you've shown since its started that you zero regard for any kind of opposition to your POV.--Crossmr (talk) 05:14, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If I decided to remove instances of "not uncommon" from every article it which the phrase appeared, would that be a blockable offence? No, because the phrase fits WP:WEASEL. Similarly, removing a few instances of "according to" is both a minor change and consistent with the MoS. Abductive  (reasoning) 03:36, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You were just told by multiple editors not to remove that and that it was not consistent with MoS. Removing according tos, when they're attached to words like "some people" or "some academics" is appropriate. Removing according tos when they're attached to "John Smith" or "Professor X" are not appropriate. It is clear attribution of an opinion. This was explained to you. You ignored repeatedly. Which is why we are here and people are supporting your block.--Crossmr (talk) 04:24, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, those edits predate Shadowjams suggestion at 23:29, 20 April 2010 that I "cool it" with those sorts of edits. If people take a look at the edits, and the edits summaries, I think some will not see any problems at all. Abductive  (reasoning) 04:42, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Your reversions of the IP who disagreed with you do not predate that suggestion. They also don't predate being told on the talk page of the FA that the names are appropriate . Nor does it excuse you using misleading edit summaries to cover up the changes you make.--Crossmr (talk) 04:46, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * So I continued to edit articles I already edited? My edit summaries were not misleading. I strongly recommend that all editors reading this look at the edits. Abductive  (reasoning) 04:50, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Editing an article once doesn't give you license to revert any opposition to your edits. That is specifically spelled out on WP:BRD (which has to be well over a dozen times I've linked you to it which you seem to have great issue reading). You were bold, you were reverted, and instead of discussing it you reverted again with bad faith assumptions and accusations. You were also bold at a time where there was not. WP:WEASEL specifically addresses removal of "according tos" that don't go to a specific source, you removed 4 such entries that did go to specific sources. That is a misleading edit summary.--Crossmr (talk) 04:56, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * In each of the follow-on edits I made, I carefully considered what the IP said, and made new edits that were either different from the first, or explained why I felt I was correct. At present, are any of the articles worse than when I started? Abductive  (reasoning) 05:04, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * 2 of the 4 were blind reverts were you accused him of wikihounding then threatened him on his talk page. None of the removals were appropriate at that point because multiple editors had said it was inappropriate. The status of the articles is immaterial because you clearly knew these kinds of edits were disputed but you persisted in pushing your point of view without having the discussion that was recommended to you.--Crossmr (talk) 05:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree with everything you just said, except to note that now we're down to 2 out of 4 articles. Abductive  (reasoning) 05:13, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I never said the other 2 were okay. At that point it was still suggested you stop making those edits. Its only in 2 of them you made direct bad faith accusations and blindly reverted the articles. The other two you still removed the names without consensus. When you reverted those articles Shadowjams had recommended you stop and 2 editors on the FA had told you that the names were appropriate. You had no support for your edits yet pushed away.--Crossmr (talk) 05:16, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The edits were consistent with the Manual of Style, and 2 or 4 edits hardly constitutes any kind of mass action. Again, I note that the articles are better now than they were before. This is how editing gets done on Wikipedia; there may be some opposition, but given that the IP hasn't complained or reverted, perhaps s/he doesn't perceive a problem. Abductive  (reasoning) 05:22, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, they weren't. You were told that already. you were told to stop making them. The IP could just be busy and hasn't come back to the article. Their absence isn't evidence that they support you. I know you like to use that a lot as argument, but it doesn't fly. The problem is you ignore other users, and revert pages rather than discuss. It is what got you blocked before, and the exact behaviour you've continuing since then. You've intentionally gone to articles and made edits you know were disputed. I haven't reverted all of them yet because I'm waiting for a clear consensus which is starting to form. If you want to continue these edits you need to make a proposal at the village pump that they should be removed and see how the community feels. Everything else disruptive.--Crossmr (talk) 05:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You know what? I think that you need to get the last word in. You and I repeat the same arguments over and over, with you making sweeping statements about consensus forming, when in fact the general consensus is that this is not important. It is an editing dispute, with some people even agreeing with me. Abductive  (reasoning) 05:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Support block This is a long list of violated policies. &lt;&gt;Multi‑Xfer&lt;&gt; (talk) 17:34, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Support block Abductive's WP:POINT violations concern me the most. If he wants to have inline attributions of studies to their researchers removed, he should have gone to the village pump, rather than just removing them all himself, without prior discussion. RadManCF &#x2622; open frequency 18:07, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment I agree that this is a real problem. Disruption, socking, fait accompli mass edits, wikilawyering about 3RR (there is no 3 revert entitlement).  Talks like an academic and edit wars at asian fetish?  Give me a break.  Overall attitude could be viewed as an ownership issue towards the whole encyclopedia.  66.127.53.162 (talk) 20:38, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no socking. Abductive  (reasoning) 03:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Then why don't you tell us who the previous accounts? You were asked by an adminstrator last year to name your accounts and refused.--Crossmr (talk) 04:47, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I refused correctly. There is a difference between sockpuppeting and legit alternate accounts, and there is no problem at all if the accounts don't overlap in time and articles. I tell you what, though; if you can guess any of my alternate accounts, I'll admit them. You can have 1000 guesses, just ask at my talk page. Abductive  (reasoning) 04:54, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * How would anyone know since you won't disclose it? I'm certainly not going to take your word on it at this point. The very least you can do is e-mail the list to arbcom.--Crossmr (talk) 04:59, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll tell the truth. After all, if in the future any admin or member of arbcom ever did take an interest in this non-issue, my lying would be perceived quite negatively. So, if there is any account that has ever aroused your suspicion, just ask on my talk page. Abductive  (reasoning) 05:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If you want to come clean with your past accounts you can do so here or you can e-mail the list to arbcom. No reason to tuck it away on your talk page. Last year you claimed that they would only show more of the same (Which tells us a lot) but that there wasn't anything untoward, so why not just list them unless you got blocks or bans to hide?--Crossmr (talk) 05:19, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Opposed. Who said academics can't have fetishes? Seriously, this seems a pretty wp:lame conflict, people should just back off from gouging each others eye's over stuff like this. I don't see significant issues with Abductive's latest incriminated edit . Removing some verbiage is always good. It makes sense to repeatedly use "According to ..." only if the statements are contentious, and some alternative interpretation is provided, like "According to X, A1 happened, but according to Y, A2 happened." Just repeatedly using "According to X", where X is not even the same across occurrences, and the there are no disputed issues, just induces the impression that there may be a different interpretation when none is provided, so it should be a construct to wp:avoid just like "claims". Pcap ping  00:19, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Except he's been told by multiple users he shouldn't do it without getting consensus first. There are multiple problems here. 1) that he's making WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:POINT edits he knows are currently disputed and 2) any reversion of those edits is met with assumptions of bad faith and reversions rather than discussions per WP:CONSENSUS and WP:BRD. it was suggested above that he not continue these edits without a central discussion on it, and after he tried to push it on an FA he was told by 2 users there that there was no problem with the edits. Someone ignoring consensus and edit warring their pov into an article isn't lame. It's a problem. The problem at Hephthalite was several, 1) disputed edit, 2) misleading edit summary, 3) assumption of bad faith, 4) consensus and BRD. He managed 4 violations in 2 edits. and we already know that Abductive is removing this names not because the claims aren't disputed but because he feels these individuals are "non-notable" academics, and that naming them is some kind of vanity, spam, or whatever other story he's concocted today.--Crossmr (talk) 04:21, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, Ironholds has warmed a bit to my point of view. The way you have characterized my edits is not consistent with the, well, truth. Abductive  (reasoning) 04:31, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "I'll take a look" doesn't mean, I agree with your point and you're free to remove researchers names from countless articles.--Crossmr (talk) 04:56, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. Listen carefully; I am not advocating removing researchers from articles; what I want is their names down in the footnoted references--not inline--unless there is a good reason. Abductive  (reasoning) 05:16, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Listen carefully; there is opposition to your moving names down to the references from in-line. You were told to stop it, both here and on article talk pages. You continued. More people opposed you. You reverted and made bad faith accusations. You are being disruptive, see no problem with your edits, and have no regard for consensus.--Crossmr (talk) 05:22, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I disagree. The consensus you claim is actually people wishing that this ANI discussion would die out, or people who came quite late to this discussion and clearly are mislead by you. Earlier, Ironholds, one other user and I had a discussion on a talk page, with results amenable to all. An IP and you are the only ones intrested in following my contribs and finding fault, and I made an effort to take everybody's concerns into account, and the IP has not edited the articles further. Are you saying that I cannot edit? Abductive  (reasoning) 05:30, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, the consensus I claim is Shadowjam who told you to get consensus, ironholds and the other person on the FA talk page, the IP, and even Radman above specifically states that you should have gone to the village pump to get consensus first, as well as a second IP. If you made an effort to take everyone's concerns into account, you wouldn't have run out to change every article that was provided as evidence to dispute your false claims. You're free to edit, but you shouldn't be moving researchers names out of the inline text until you have consensus to do so. Several users have told you that. You've ignored it repeatedly and made bad faith accusations and ignored WP:BRD to push your point of view.--Crossmr (talk) 05:36, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, you make sweeping claims that I changed "every article", was going to remove "all" of something, and that I am reverting when the edits are not reversions, and that I am not following suggestions when in fact I am. I'm also engaging in normal editing practices to the best of my ability. Go ahead, put in the last word. Abductive  (reasoning) 05:44, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Crossmr, I don't see a good reason to invoke the source of some science in text by default. You haven't provided any. Just because you and some other editors disagree with Abductive on this issue, it doesn't make you (or them) any holier than him. I do use similar constructs occasionally, but when I have a good reason to do so. For instance, I used something like that in the capacitor plague article "The failed capacitors analyzed by two University of Maryland researchers..." to emphasize that the guys that did the analysis are reasonably independent of the hardware manufacturers. Another case is when someone pioneers a new technique etc. But in general, I don't see a reason to give the names in text for routine science, especially when they don't have wikibios here. Can you argue for one? Pcap ping  09:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Holier no, but knowingly going out and repeatedly making edits you know are disputed is disruptive. Especially when counselled to start a consensus discussion. It is completely contrary to WP:CONSENSUS and WP:BRD. Individual articles have to be addressed individually, but anyone who has disagreed with his edits finds their work undone. This is the problem. Other than the featured article, every other article has him constantly putting his preferred version, without names back in. He probably knows that edit warring on a featured article would get him far more attention than some fringe article so that is why its the only one he chose not to to instantly undo the opposition to his edits. You have to remember the whole reason this started was because of his false claim in defense of his edits on Asan fetish was that no article on wikipedia had this language in it. As soon as he was confronted with a list of tons of them, he started changing them.--Crossmr (talk) 12:00, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Support block. I am disappointed that after the improvements Abductive showed in his editing at WP:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Academics and educators after receiving a dressing down from several regulars at that page and changing his name from Joey the Mango to Abductive he has edited disruptively and against consensus in other articles. It seems that he edits subjects of which he has limited knowledge in a domineering and recalcitrant manner and is unwilling to accommodate the views of others. Xxanthippe (talk) 07:38, 23 April 2010 (UTC).
 * The more I see the more its clear there is some personal bias against academics he thinks are non-notable and is out to remove every mention of them from wikipedia regardless of how others feel.--Crossmr (talk) 12:05, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, this characterization is untrue. User:Crossmr uses the word scare word "remove" to describe either my desire to see the names of researchers mentioned in footnotes rather than given undue prominence, or a legitimate process called AfD. Seizing upon an AfD nomination I made when I was rusty upon returning to editing, he makes sweeping, untrue claims. Abductive  (reasoning) 15:33, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Articles for deletion/Barbara Ramsay Shaw was an interesting if unfunny read, but that was almost a year ago. Towards the end of that Abductive gave the impression he learned something from that AfD. Are you suggesting that Abductive has some hidden agenda to diminish the presence of academics on Wikipedia by removing "According to ..." verbiage? I see Crossmsr thinks so, but I want to hear it from you. Pcap ping  01:05, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was a year go. Hence why I titled this long term disruption. Older incidents are quite relevant because it shows that this is an on-going problem which shows no real indication of changing. He gave the impression he learned something, but obviously he didn't. All his edit summaries belie his intent. Instead of indication that he's trying to improve the articles he's telling us he's removing their names from the inline text because they're "non-notable" he was nominating academics without properly checking them. He was referring to Fisman and Iyengar as non-notable academics at Asian Fetish when a quick Gnews/Books/Scholar check shows they meet WP:PROF and their inclusion in the article as "vanity" or "stealth spam", coupled with that statement and the fact that He's twice violated 3RR fighting over what he considers non-notable academics it paints a very clear picture.--Crossmr (talk) 01:21, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * He was asking Xxanthippe. Twice violated 3RR? What was the second time? And referring to an AfD that occurred a year ago is plainly ridiculous. I have nominated dozens of articles for deletion since then, partipated in over 1000 AfDs, and have prevailed in quite a few. Crossmr continues to cherry-pick, characterizing my normal editing behavior, and a few mistakes, as evidence of some sort of plot to ruin Wikipedia. In fact, none of my actions are particularly unusual, and all are attempts on my part to improve the encylopedia. Abductive  (reasoning) 01:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What is it that is being asked?--Xxanthippe (talk) 03:09, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Pcap wanted to know if you think Abductive has some agenda against academics.--Crossmr (talk) 04:55, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no views on that matter. Xxanthippe (talk) 06:14, 24 April 2010 (UTC).
 * A month ago, look up, its already been linked to twice. Last month in March he violated 3RR [24], [25], [26], [27] the page was locked shortly there after. His violation was missed. You undid another editors work 4 times in 24 hours. It got lost in the shuffle of all of the edit warring that was going on there. I don't need to cherry pick anything. I just simply need to point out the times you were opposed and how you reacted to it. A year ago is perfectly relevant since the point being made is long-term disruption. That would require old incidents too. Which really aren't that old since you apparently started editing 2.5 years before that but refuse to name your previous accounts.--Crossmr (talk) 04:51, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Truly, the way you characterize things is Machiavellian (or Orwellian) and a bold-faced lie. Editing after two different IPs and a named account, with edits that weren't the same, is not 3RR. I think it is you that is violating WP:BATTLEGROUND. Abductive  (reasoning) 05:11, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Undoing another user's edits 4 times in 24 hours is a 3RR violation, it doesn't matter if its a named account or an IP. unless those edits are one of the few excepted edits (blatant vandalism, copyvios, etc) then it counts. Opposing Abductive's point of view isn't one of the excepted edits. Can you demonstrate that any of the things you removed and undid was an excepted edit under WP:3RR? And if you don't refuse to name your previous accounts, then put the list right here. So unless you can show how some of the things you removed met those requirements or are willing to put the list of accounts here the characterization is apt.--Crossmr (talk) 09:12, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Given that what turned out to be one other user was editing against the talk page consensus on an article with BLP issues, I don't think that 3RR applies. Nobody but you cares about the non-issue of my prior accounts, and my offer still stands for you to guess at them. Abductive  (reasoning) 16:21, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * May I ask why this user is still, after this much disruption, a rollbacker. I do not feel that any user who has engaged in disruptive editing should possess this tool, and would support revoking rollback rights and then possibly blocking. Immunize (talk) 17:32, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a good question and might be the subject of a secondary proposal.--Crossmr (talk) 17:02, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry champ, that isn't one of the excepted edits you get to go over 3RR for. 3RR isn't for content disputes, and if you think it is then it tells us you really haven't learned anything from this or prior situations.--Crossmr (talk) 00:08, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the prior accounts are an issue since concerns are being raised about them, and I think Abductive is showing a long term pattern of non-collegial editing, and ongoing wikilawyering (I haven't checked if that's also a long term pattern). Abductive, have you disclosed your past accounts to arbcom-l and/or are you willing to do so?  While the sock policy doesn't formally require that, it is strongly recommended there, and if you won't do it, I think that diminishes the amount of AGF that should be extended to you in this discussion.   69.228.170.24 (talk) 22:11, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Opposed There are issues and then there is wrongdoing within this thread. Trumped up charges should always be avoided as they are a means by which one side tries to unfairly tilt the playing field to possibly get a biased judgment. Wikipedia always looks forward and rarely goes back and corrects past mistakes in judgment. Secondly, what exactly is an "administrative action"? Are you seeking a topic ban? That sounds like a major action. Has either party attempted to resolve differences either informally or formally? While there are issues here to be sorted out the approach throws up caution flags.--scuro (talk) 23:52, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If you can show where I said anythig false feel free to do so. Otherwise, you can retract your statement. I've provided links for all of his editing and what he has done. This isn't a content dispute. This is an editor who ignores consensus, fails to abide by the varous policies and guidelines he's required to and undoes any opoposition to his point of view. This goes across many articles and topics. While it is mainly confined to one topic, he's edit warred over other things as well. There is nothing he and I can do privately since it isn't a personal issue between us. Administrator action is whatever is required to get him to stop, gain consensus and edit in a manner conducive to running a community when his edits are opposed. He apparently needs that since one of his arguments on Asian fetish was "Since an administrator hasn't blocked me or done anything else, I must be right"--Crossmr (talk) 00:31, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Abductive has claimed exaggeration of your complaint, that user should speak to this issue. I do not buy the notion that there is "nothing he and I can do". Attempts on your part to earnestly resolve differences on his talk page should be the very first approach taken even if this exercise looks to be totally futile. This is a condition required pre-arbitration. Formal reconciliation mechanisms should have also been attempted. Are there several editors who who are in complete agreement with your observations? If so they could be used to initiate other procedures. Are you seeking a total ban from Wikipedia? While that in the end might be the end result ...explain to me why all the traditional remedies and procedures are not required in this case. While a contributor may be behaving poorly, the normal sanction process gives contributors the opportunity and time to permanently self-correct behaivour before serious sanctions are required.--scuro (talk) 11:44, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose Per User:Pohta ce-am pohtit, who notes that inline attribution suggests "that there may be a different interpretation when none is provided" ; having sources' names in the citation, not inline, is the norm. This looks pretty lame. I think both Crossmr and Abductive should just try to avoid each other.John Z (talk) 00:54, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The proposal of User:John Z is not helpful as it, in effect, warns User:Crossmr off these topics and leaves Abductive free to edit with impunity. Xxanthippe (talk) 06:59, 26 April 2010 (UTC).
 * Um, there's no "norm"--heck, in Harvard referencing, the cited author's name is necessarily inline, and it is a perfectly acceptable style on wikipedia. Edit warring over a choice like that completely inappropriate. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 03:00, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This isn't about a content dispute. Its about an editor who constantly edit wars with multiple editors across multiple articles and topics and when provided evidence that his point of view isn't supported on other articles he rushes over to change them, including featured articles. The rightness or wrongness of researchers names appearing inline is completely immaterial to this editor's behaviour. The problem was him claiming false consensus and undoing anyone's opposition to his point of view.--Crossmr (talk) 03:18, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose a blanket block - I assume the only block proposals are for perma-blocks, which I would not support. If there's some more nuanced alternative, I would reevaluate (which doesn't mean I'd necessarily support). Also relevant: have any controversial edits continued despite discussion? Shadowjams (talk) 06:53, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I asked for adminstrative intervention, whatever they deemed necessary to slow him down and get him to actually discuss the opposition to his edits rather than just undo people's opposition over and over with bad faith assumptions. And yes, as I pointed out above, after 2 editors disagreed with him on the FA, he went out and changed 4 more articles. When he was reverted on that, he reverted again instead of following WP:BRD and actually discussing it, meanwhile assuming bad faith on the reverters intentions by accusing him of wikihounding and threatening him with a block for doing so. As you can see here he's shown no appreciation nor understanding of what the problem is. He hasn't made any disputed edits in a day, but as more attention is being paid to the issue, his level of WP:BATTLEGROUND edits has dropped. What happens if the thread goes off AN/I? Who knows. But since he's shown no acception nor understanding I doubt anything is going to change. Immunize suggested rollback rights be removed above. Perhaps a more concrete proposal is in order.--Crossmr (talk) 11:22, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * At minimum, formally restrict to one account unless user agrees to inform arbcom of all aliases and does so (in which case we should ask an arb to spot check the other accounts). User is either operating multiple disruptive accounts and avoiding scrutiny by concealing the connection between them, or is operating a combination of disruptive and non-disruptive accounts, a good-hand/bad-hand situation that is also a misuse of alternates.  The only way to legitimately use multiple accounts is to keep all of them completely free of any hint of misconduct.  That hasn't happened here.  I'm sympathetic to the block proposal but don't want to pile onto it without burning more time examining Crossmr's diffs than I feel like doing.  Abductive's aggressive style if done for long enough (even at a low level) constitutes battleground editing calling for use of attitude adjustment tools if it doesn't change.  Probation or a suitable editing restriction might be good.  69.228.170.24 (talk) 11:36, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If you have evidence of that, then file a WP:SPI, Mr. Anonymous. Pcap ping  14:24, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * He was asked by adminstrators to do so and danced around the issue. Given his behaviour here and the fact that he continually refuses to name his other accounts, even in a private e-mail to arbcom, it's an issue. If he is restricting himself to one account right now, SPI wouldn't do anything, and SPI data isn't kept a year old to find out if he's hiding previous bad accounts. I find it interesting that you'd take issue with someone expressing an opinion via an IP, but not with someone ignoring wikipedia's policies and guidelines.--Crossmr (talk) 14:32, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Proposal
How about the following:
 * A formal restriction to one account, and
 * Either
 * A 1RR restriction, or
 * A 0RR on "stylistic" changes (e.g., moving a name from the text to the reference, or vice-versa). (If he doesn't think it's important, than he shouldn't be adding it against opposition.)
 * Explaination:
 * As he has previously used multiple accounts disruptively, then we (at least ArbCom) needs to keep track of his multiple accounts if he is acting disruptively on any of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthur Rubin (talk • contribs)
 * What about the following:
 * restricted to one account
 * he emails his list of accounts to arbcom so they can keep track of them
 * 1RR on regular topics
 * 0RR on anything to do with "academics", their notability, and them being mentioned in articles, broadly construed.
 * he's encouraged to commit WP:BRD to memory--Crossmr (talk) 00:39, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Does that mean you'd be willing to enforce these restrictions Arthur?--Crossmr (talk) 00:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * From a privacy perspective I don't think we can demand (rather than merely urge) that someone disclose past alternate accounts to arbcom, unless we're prepared to ban the person outright if they refuse. It less imposing to restrict their use in the future, which I think is reasonable here.  Your other proposals sound ok.  Pcap, nobody is entitled to edit with multiple accounts, especially  completely undisclosed ones.  It's a practice that we accept in certain situations, but we should withdraw our acceptance if other factors begin to weigh against it, as they have here. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 01:40, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That's why we're asking them to be emailed to arbcom privately. We consider arbcom trustworthy. Users are often asked to email arbcom these kinds of things privately if they don't want to disclose them publicly. --Crossmr (talk) 05:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Reporting User:LessHeard vanU for Admin tools abuse.
After having discussed the reasons of the blocking of my account by User:LessHeard vanU with him, on his talk page, as indicated for this situations, I still fail to understand any possible violation that may had led to the blocking of my account. By this, and nothing personal, I would like to report this incident in which I feel extremely perjudicated. Here are some diffs and links that could be helpfull:
 * The reason of my complain.
 * My ANI report.
 * The subsequent block of my account by User:LessHeard vanU.
 * the discussion on LessHeard vanU talk page where the reasons of the block are (or not) clarified.

I will also like to report and ask User:Beeblebrox for explaining his, not understandable, statements that he had in two accasions, on the ANI report itself and on the offensive users talk page, in which he accuses me of having had equal behavior towards the user I was complaining, and says that the user is "right" in saying those offensies, but "not cool". This is a serios acusation, please User:Beeblebrox find backing for this offensive arguments of yours. I had already tryied on two occasions, the report itself and on his talk page but I was completely ignored. Thank you.

As a good and devoted wikipedian, I feel that it was my dutty to report the previos incident, so as this (on my opinion) admin abuse. Thanking everyone in advance, I send best regards, FkpCascais (talk) 22:17, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as I can see, LessHeard vanU has explained himself just fine. You were being disruptive by taking a particularly mild comment on your talk page too seriously and demanding unwarranted action. When you refused to listen to people telling you to drop it, you were blocked for threatening to continue the disruption. Everyone seems to have been more than patient with you, and if you still don't understand the reason for the block I'm worried that it's due to your own lack of comprehension. As someone previously uninvolved in this, I can't see anything remotely resembling admin abuse. ~ mazca  talk 22:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I have to say, the initial edit summary in the first diff was by no means "paritcularly mild". DuncanHill (talk) 22:28, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's by no means exemplary behaviour, but as a response to repeated objectionable conduct - removing others' posts - it certainly seems fairly mild to me relative to the amount of fuss it caused. ~ mazca  talk 22:32, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The post was restored in place much before the attack occured... FkpCascais (talk) 22:41, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It was definitely not mild but looking at the ANI discussion, all the editors involved seemed to agree that both parties were at fault and that they should both just back away from each other. The party who left the initial comment agreed and FkpCascais kept pressing the issue. I can see why they might feel strongly about it but if the community has said drop it and you promise to continue disrupting proceedings, a short-term block seems warranted. This doesn't seem to be a case of admin-abuse. PanydThe muffin is not subtle 22:42, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Since I didn't use my admin tools I don't think a case could be made that I abused them. And yes, I did ignore your posts on my talk page because clearly you are not getting the message that you are making too big of a deal out of this. Don't expect any further comment from me on this matter since this has gone on far too long already. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The problem is that I am asking you to explain your unjustified acusation on the ANI report that had direct consequencies on the blocking of my account. It was not you that was insulted neither blocked while asking action against it, so I can´t really see how is that you are the one making opinions of if this had already gone too far, or nor, in this case. I will remind you that Admins are not free of responsabilities behind the positions they take on the ANI reports. FkpCascais (talk) 00:01, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sigh. Fine I will explain it to you. You removed a comment here . That you later went back and undid this ill-considered action does not mean it never happened. Alasdair pointed this out, but used some nasty language when doing so. So, you did something wrong, he did something wrong. My advice was, is, and will continue to be that you should let this drop. Please do not leave any further messages about this on my talk page. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I would comment that at no time had FkpCascais indicated to me that they considered my actions as abuse, but rather as a matter of seeking an explanation. I would likely not have responded any differently were I aware of that consideration, however. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:31, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I want to add that -in my opinion- admin LessHeardvanU seems to have been "pushed" (I'd dare to say "intimidated") by a group of yugoslavian/marxist-titofanatics around user:DIREKTOR (please see on Jimbo talkpage/edits: Sorry, Jimbo, if I pinpoint again about what is happening with user:DIREKTOR. He seems to be allowed to do any wrongdoings he wants on en.wiki (edit wars, vandalisms, verbal offenses, 3RR, political propaganda, etc..). He has collected six bans, but keeps behaving defiantly thanks even to his meatpuppets (like user:AlasdairGreen27). Please, read in order to get an idea. Even with user:FkpCascais he gets whatever he likes (see ), but is not punished because some admins seems to be often on his side. Many others wikipedians have experienced his "attacks": recently an admin on it.wiki (user:Crisarco) remained astonished by his behaviour (and for the group "supporting" him) on en.wiki. Please see" . He does -in a continue way- political propaganda (with his meatpuppet user:AlasdairGreen27 and others) supporting communist Tito and Yugoslavian topics.....and no admin on en.wiki seriously takes care of his many wrongdoings (may be they are afraid of him and his group?). The last admin who "dared" to ban him for a few days was literally "assaulted" by his group and was forced to offer a kind of withdrawal of the ban: unbelievable! A lot of people are tired of him and his continuous fights and edit wars: he should be banned forever or for a long period of months.  Many wikipedians would appreciate your help to get this: Wikipedia needs to grow in a "peaceful" relationship between users; and this Direktor is always fighting with someone (just look at his talkpage and contributions). Sincerely --BisR41 (talk).---Apologies, this is yet another "report" from a gang of banned sockpuppeteers I reported (most likely User:Ragusino).DIREKTOR.---Well, well....I wrote the complainst in order to show Jimbo how quickly some admins "help" this fanatic Direktor (6 times banned! not a little saint...). His meatpuppet group literally attacks even admins (like User:JodyB) who "dare" to punish him! Allow me to repeat: Wikipedia needs to grow in a "peaceful" relationship between users; and this Direktor is always fighting with someone (just look at his talkpage and contributions). He should be banned at least for some months! Sincerely).    Allow me to write that it is astonishing to me see that FkpCascais is verbally offended by DIREKTOR's meatpuppet user:AlasdairGreen27 and... who is punished?  FkpCascais! UNBELIEVABLE! Let's free Wikipedia from Meatpuppets and their groups. An outraged wikipedian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.236.74.14 (talk • contribs)
 * Wow, that helped your case a lot. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It´s not my fault that other people also have complains... I will just ask everybody to concentrate on the report. FkpCascais (talk) 22:40, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, but you're certainly responsible for your own continued whining. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You are talking to the wrong person. FkpCascais (talk) 01:40, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I have never seen User:LessHeard vanU misuse his tools on Wikipedia...ever. He is a great Wikipedian and admin, quick on blocking vandals, but also quick on helping newbies and experienced users.  The dude is here all the time (I swear he is a robot).  His contribs show a level of expertise that we should try to match, not remove.  User:LessHeard vanU is always willing to listen to the other side of the conversation, so I think any problems can be worked out on his talk and this ANI thread closed. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 16:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Lucas Duke
I've blocked for using his userpage as a platform for anti-Muslim bigotry after many warnings. The specific cause was this edit. A number of editors have expresed concern on his user talk in the last few months over soapboxing on his userpage and his repeated addition of Category:Anti-muslim activists, among others, to his userpage. In this case, an indefinite block is really intended to be indefinite, and review is welcomed.  Acroterion  (talk)  20:46, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Support indef. He does other less hostile things, but keeps coming back to soapboxing using Wikipedia as a platform for overtly racist views.  We're not here for that.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:53, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * As a person who registered concern before, I also support indef. No room for that at a legitimate encyclopedia. IronDuke  23:17, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Good block. Maybe the best block I have seen all week.  We don't need such hatred and bigotry around here.  -- Jayron  32  00:04, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Asking Uninvolved Admin To Close Move Discussion
After one week of discussion we have clear consensus of 28 for the move an 8 against considering this the 6th Page move discussion since the beginning of 2010 and the only one to come to clear consensus i request the page be moved. Weaponbb7 (talk) 01:00, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Indonesian vandal alert.
Remember the Indonesian long term misinformation vandal who has used a multitude of IP ranges? He's back. Same MO of connecting Digimon with various US movie studio without any source. This time, he used the following IP address in the 110.138.32.0/20 range:



He hasn't showed up in an address beyond the above range, but 110.138.32.0/20 is the best shot we have so far until he uses a third address.

Also, can also be any more stringent measures, especially on actually tracking down the guy or semi-protecting every single article he cannibalized? Thank you. - 上村七美 (Nanami-chan) | talkback | contribs 09:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I've already blocked this range for now based on report on my talk page. But as I mentioned there, I would like more general advice/discussion as to what the best way to deal with this type of vandal is. Jumping IPs and articles quickly, making both semi-protection and rangeblocking difficult without lots of collateral. Should we just keep rangeblocking, but for fairly short periods? Peter 09:43, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The trouble is, he comes back at longish intervals, so short range-blocks are not effective. I don't see anything better than a combination of article protection and whack-a-mole. It looks as if there is more than one person at it - edits from today's two IPs overlap, and the last two are actually in the same minute. JohnCD (talk) 10:08, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Edit filter? Special cluebot rule? 69.228.170.24 (talk) 10:22, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know. NJA tried doing an edit filter and I've put forward an edit filter request before that, but NJA's prototype didn't go out of the fly and my request ultimately rejected. - 上村七美 (Nanami-chan) | talkback | contribs 04:01, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Intimidation and verbal abuse by another user
User Kuttappan has been involved in bullying other users at the Talk:Nair page for the last few days. till now, he has been using more or less civilized dialogue. But I have noticed today that he is resorting to rogue tactics and bullying as he did here. Also, he showered abuse at me on my talk page. He wrote: "Kuttappan Nairu ninte Thanthayo matto aanodaa, Polayaadi Mone?" (Translation: Is Kuttappan your father, you son of a wh**e). Please control this guy and tell him to stop abusing others. Chandrakantha.Mannadiar (talk) 02:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have left a stern warning at that user's talk page. If they continue after this warning, they may be blocked for violations of the WP:NPA policy.  The ball is in his court, lets see what he does from now.  -- Jayron  32  03:16, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

User:Rockyman512
impersonated a bot on my talk page. I'm not sure if this is a lack of clue copy-paste move, or malicious. Other edits in contributions are weird as well, and his talk page shows it. (If this isn't the place for it, please move it- I'm not sure that this is outright vandalism).
 * edit: I didn't see this earlier, but the account's only a couple of hours old- a bit early for clueful vandal fighting, so that might help explain it. What happens with users like this? SS  ✞(Kay) 09:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

as per the talk page for user_talk:Singlish_speaker i was using a plugin for firefox, not very wise, as we have determined :P Rockyman512 09:39, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Still, placement of this false/questionable "warnings" on a user's talk page by clearly constitutes an impersonation of a BLOCKED bot in order to harass another editor. Note: You do not conduct a test on another user's page here on Wikipedia by leaving a warning template and wrongly accusing ) of vandalism, if ever at all, the Sandbox is for you to test out your "ideas", mind you. Also, I noticed an earlier note you had left for an admin  per this edit, accusing him too of vandalism. This is a clear pattern that your account is nothing short of being used for the harassment of other editor here, and a short check through your contribution history doesn't inspire much confidence in whatever you said. Sadly, you won't be missed per WP:DENY. --<i style="font-family:Rage Italic; font-size:large; color:green;">Dave</i> ♠♣♥♦1185♪♫™ 10:14, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I also received a warning for "blanking" from Rocky but I assume it is because he is too new to realize what my edits were. I was reverting massive plot summary bloat from a repeat problem user. In recent changes, I'm sure the edit came up as a large red negative number (he has not, as of yet, reverted my change, however). I did not actually blank any sections however, so that is a bit confusing. For now I'm assuming good faith as far as intentions but I don't think Rocky fully understands the process, barring some kind of tech problem with the tool he's using. Millahnna (mouse) talk  09:50, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

This user has a history of very unhelpful editing. See this edit and this one, where other users are confused by Rockyman512 posting totally spurious warning messages to their talk pages. Then there is this edit, where Rockyman512 posted a block-message to a user who has never been blocked. Then we have this edit and this one in which the user posts notices about proposing a user talk page for speedy deletion for quite nonsensical reasons. And we have this edit, in which Rockyman512 posts a completely spurious warning message and signs the message as coming from Pegasusbot. At a glance all this looks like vandalism and that may be true, but reading more carefully I am not so sure. I think it may be a case of a new user being too enthusiastic at getting going, trying to run before he/she can walk, and getting into a mess. I think this user should be counselled to hold back and learn to edit Wikipedia more slowly. Certainly it is not appropriate for such an inexperienced and confused editor to try to contribute as a member of the Counter-Vandalism Unit Task Force: time for that if and when the user has gained a considerable amount of experience of how Wikipedia works. JamesBWatson (talk) 10:12, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * @JamesBWatson, note that from my past experience with several alleged newbies, they don't usually get themselves entangled in CVU-related activities right from the start of their editing career here on Wikipedia unless they are up to no good, and usually they are. The other thing is, the genuine ones will usually apologise unreservedly if they had made a mistake, but not for the case of alleged newbies. Read point number 6 & 7 of → WP:OWB ← for more details. Cheers~! --<i style="font-family:Rage Italic; font-size:large; color:green;">Dave</i> ♠♣♥♦1185♪♫™ 10:44, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I totally agree that this user's behaviour does not, on the face of it, look like that of a genuine new editor. I was assuming good faith, but deliberately holding back from committing myself (I wrote "this looks like vandalism and that may be true"). I am not sure which this is, but am still willing to assume good faith until evidence points one way or the other. I have also posted a message at User talk:Rockyman512 asking for more details about the Firefox plugin concerned. (However, by no means all of the problems can have been caused by a troublesome plugin.) Finally, it is important to realise that the editor has also made some perfectly constructive edits, though sometimes with minor errors, such as placing comments at the top of talk pages, which looks the sort of mistake a new user might make. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:18, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Wow really? I did apologize for the issue i cause i have read over the rules, and how things are done, and have been paying more attention... Rockyman512 11:00, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

@Rockyman512: TBH, I don't think you have. To which, I shall now bid you adieu, per WP:DENY. --<i style="font-family:Rage Italic; font-size:large; color:green;">Dave</i> ♠♣♥♦1185♪♫™ 11:04, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

@dave: How are you affected by this, now please mind your business, you were not involved in anyway Rockyman512 11:37, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Dave, it's completely understandable to be skeptical in this case but for the sake of propriety, how about remembering WP:BITE? PanydThe muffin is not subtle 13:37, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

This filter log also shows him vandalizing List of One Piece characters earlier today, and then reporting it as a false positive on WP:FALSEPOS. In the same edit, he was removing someone else's vandalism, so I'm not sure what to think. I've never known the edit filter to mis-attribute edits, but I've never seen someone go to the false positives page and then report their own vandalism either. The "hi kevin" vandalism had been earlier added by an IP address, which I reverted. So it's possible that it was just an edit conflict which he was not aware of, and thus he ended up adding vandalism by mistake.  — Soap  —  14:50, 26 April 2010 (UTC) The more I look at this case the more it looks like what I suggested above: a well-intentioned editor who is trying to run before he can walk, and is continually getting into a mess due to lack of experience. The message really is "spend some time doing fairly low key editing before tying to use anti-vandalism tools which need understanding". JamesBWatson (talk) 11:19, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * He has also added a comment onto my talk page which some could sat appears as a bot --Jim Sweeney (talk) 21:54, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I know that when I first used Twinkle I clicked everything to see what it did- not quite realising how immediate the effect was. I'm really grateful for your perceptive and open-minded assessment of this. {&#123; Sonia &#124;talk&#124;simple}&#125; 08:28, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Ecco Pro
For quite some time I regularly visit Ecco Pro, only finding over and over again massive amounts of inappropriate linking in the article, with texts like:


 * '... with active community participation at the 'New' ECCO_Pro Yahoo! group, and the EccoMagic Forums.'
 * '... at the eccotools forums and in downloadable format form the files library of the 'new' Yahoo! Ecco_Pro group.' (sometimes the groups are working links to the forum)
 * 'NetManage premitted continued distribution of the final version as a free download at the official Ecco_Pro user group forum's file section.' (note: I don't think I ever saw a reference hanging on this sentence)
 * 'Perez has returned to practice as a criminal defense attorney in Bellevue, Washington&lt;ref>http://www.robertperezlaw.com&lt;/ref>.' (I fail to see why this is notable, nor is this an independent reference)
 * '(SRP $59; sold direct by NetManage $9.99)' (I fail to see why pricing is so important here, similar articles don't list it, nor is it referenced.
 * 'Video guides for Ecco are available '
 * reformatting 'InfoQube (fka SQLNotes)]' into 'InfoQube (fka SQLNotes)'

And massive removals of proper references (de-reffing of e.g. 'ECCO competed in the PIM space against several formidable competitors&lt;ref>PC Magazine, August 1997, pp. 222-223, 237&lt;/ref>.') and removal of citation needed tags.

Most of these links don't comply with our manual of style, the language is promotional, and notability of many facts is not established. Furthermore, many of the editors keep reinstating information, not being able or willing to answer to questions of notability of the information, or having proper references for it.

I know that there are two sides of editors, who strongly contradict each other. On one side the forum people (YSWT who is moderator on the forums), on the other side another editor who is involved in selling the software. I am uninvolved, though my involvement in one of the sides was claimed (see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam/2010_Archive_Mar_1

These editors, on both sides, have been asked over and over to contribute more references, or independent references, but all they can come up with are their own COI references. I know that there are now some references which are certainly not the best, but that seems to be the best there is to offer. Nonetheless, the not-so-good references keep getting removed and replaced with the (worse) forum links.

Today I noticed these two diffs:


 * "Please see talk page. Please follow wiki guidelines on obtaining consensus prior to reversions. Attempts to strong arm reversion will result in my taking this to arbitration."
 * "Addition of video guides at compusol. Editors with agenda, please obtain consensus before removing this link."

and a post on the talkpage:


 * Section-title: Please only make contested changes after establishing consensus
 * Text: As one of the 'everyone' who contributes to articles the hostility here dismays me. I am an attorney and I take the wikipedia's promise and representation that everyone can contribute to be very serious.  I have carefully read the rules and guidelines and I suggest those with any special agenda do the same.   70.251.114.178 (talk) 00:22, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I have re-reverted to a less spammy version, which I think conforms more with our policies and guidelines, and which has been generated with the help of other regular wikipedians.

Some more independent help would be appreciated, as it seems to be time for lengthy blocks or protections, but I leave it to review here. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:02, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that the abuse is only coming from IPs. There is one registered account called User:EccoProMember but he's making an effort to follow policy. Though the total volume of bad edits is not large, it can be tedious for article-watchers of a lightly-trafficked article to keep going back month after month to remove similar stuff. I suggest six months of semiprotection, and will impose that unless this noticeboard thinks it's unwise. Linking to Warez has been discussed on the talk page, and the dispute on the talk page may eventually develop into something that requires further admin attention. (One of the IP participants happened to mention that he's an attorney, though not in a threatening way). Watchlisting by admins would help. EdJohnston (talk) 13:45, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Please take a look at the history of the Ecco_Pro article. You will notice that Beetstra only has made edits at the same times ad "EccoProMember" (the owner of the website compusol) also same person "Charlie1945" and various IPs. The edits are all the same, replacing legit references with references to the compusol website  which is a pay-to-enter membership site distributing for a fee,  the ecco pro software a licensed copy of which is FREE at the official distribution site,  the ecco pro user group forum. The changes have all been made without consensus.

Initially I tried to work to protect the article from the injection of the mass compusol spam links, but since I am one of the moderators at the official, free distribution site of the official software,  I have asked on the talk page for someone else to make the reversion pre compusol link replacements.

Sure would hope that someone who cares, will revert Beetstra's changes (take a look at the history,  he only has made changes in connection with the insertion of the compusol links,  spamming a period of at least 8 months.)  Again,  please note that the ecco official distribution and the ecco extension are 100% Free. The compusol site distributes a bootleg for a fee. The links & reference material to the official distribution (for free) of the the ecco pro and the new "ecco extension" (free) were removed and mass insertion of compusol links inserted. The 'articles' on compusol are mostly just cut & paste copies of user group forum posts or of other sites on the web.

Sorry, if this was too lengthly. The ecco pro article is something I have tried to help with (as an ecco pro expert) and it is very sad to see what has happened to it, how it has been hijacked by compusol with the assistance of Beetstra. Again, Beetstra is an active wiki editor who just happens to live in the same home town as the compusol owner. Beetstra just happens to edit when compusol edits, and just happens to remove reference or insert requests for citations that are then filled in with compusol links. Careful review of the history will show exactly what I am referencing here. YSWT (talk) 21:49, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Browsing Talk:Ecco Pro shows that user YSWT is passionate about the Ecco Pro product, but does not properly understand Wikipedia procedures regarding articles. The problem is that Ecco Pro was (apparently) a sensationally good PIM, but the company went in another direction and the product ceased development, although it was released "free" without source (I have not seen any licensing information). A loyal group of users (particularly YSWT) have kept the product alive for over ten years by working out various clever tricks to patch and extend it. A competitive group is a U.S. company (Compusol) which offers downloads/support for $10/year. The article problem is that the loyal users want the article to promote the product, and they want a lot of inappropriate detail, and they strongly dislike the competition (the article talk page includes nonsensical claims that Compusol is hosting warez). YSWT (and other editors) have completely misunderstood the advice offered on the article talk page, and the suggestion above that Dirk Beetstra has acted inappropriately is of course massively incorrect. I recommend that the article be pruned down to something like IBM Lotus Organizer, and that one link to each of the competitive distributions be included, with no editorial comment about which is technically or ethically superior, with article protection if necessary. The interesting details that fans would like on Wikipedia should be on some other website. Johnuniq (talk) 00:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Johnuniq, how strange that you should just happen to comment here. I received a notice on my talk page and was directed here and posted my comment.  I find your personal attack to be entirely improper.  "but does not properly understand Wikipedia procedures"  On what do you base that.  The article is to be a collaborative effort.   You attempted changes in past but you got no consensus.    If you look at my edits in the history,  you will see your 'accusations' are in error.


 * Note for those interested, the article was about how EccoPro was abandoned and then renewed with development of the machine code. References to the (free) extensions etc., was replaced with the compusol links.   As edited by Beetstra, et.al., article tells story of EccoPro which was abandoned,  but you can get for a fee at compusol.   Factual story is very different.  EccoPro was abandoned,  but then released for free (at official user site) and updated with modern extensions (also free, also at official user site, and also with official specs, etc.).  I find the story interesting.  The historic pricing info, is part of that story, etc.,  and the decision to include/remove such material should be one by consensus.  The pricing info was included for yeare in the article.  Does not seem in wiki spirit that Beetstra, et.al., should remove the material by fiat.  13:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Looked at the article. Many spammy links to "compusol". This piece of software was once notable, and there are multiple press references.  So I replaced some, but not all, of the spammy links to a news story in The Guardian. --John Nagle (talk) 00:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Just to notethe pre-spammed version of the article (with legit references, full facts, etc.). Not only did Beetstra re-insert the compusol links, but also removed info about pricing, official distribution site (free, btw), extension official sites, spec, etc.  Diff YSWT (talk) 13:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I indeed re-inserted the references to compusol, but also questioned their status already (and invited editors to find better references; moreover, I did replace some compusol references by a reference to the original, independent, source, see e.g. diff). The forum links are worse than the compusol references, and for some better don't seem to exist.  YWST, all the info I removed is not encyclopedic, and/or not independently referenced, and/or in violation of us not being an internet directory to find where to download versions.  Note, the 'official' you refer to is unreferenced, you can't give any independent source that states that thóse are official sites (besides that we do not have to link to them, but then we could at least report on their existence).  --Dirk Beetstra T  C 08:04, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Disruptive editing practices of User:Mk5384


Mk5384 has had quite a history on the John J. Pershing article and talk page over the issue of including the word "nigger" in the infobox. After getting nearly an indef block from Wikipedia over edit warring and disruption (see:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive605), it looked as if Mk had turned over a new leaf and was ready to work with others. Several users worked together on that article and a compromise position was reached which everyone could live with.

Mk was okay with this for a few days but then returned to start a new "proposal" stating that several users had agreed to another change (See: Talk:John J. Pershing). Mk then began repeating the same arguments which had already been voiced and which had already been discussed during the compromise. In the end, MK "announced" that there was a "new consensus" and here is where the disruptive editing really begins (see: Talk:John J. Pershing). First, MK misrepresented the positions of two editors, stating that two users supported this new compromise when in fact the last recorded edit was that they supported the compromise version,. One of the users even arrived to strike his name off of MK's "list". At this point, caught in a lie, MK quietly removed one user's name from the list but left the others. Mk then declared that he had a "2-1 majority" and stated this new consensus would overturn the previous discussion. As a final act to top all of this off, MK committed a blatant personal attack by stating I could go and "Kiss Usama bin Laden's ass"  As a Gulf veteran, I find that extremely insulting which is what prompted me to post here.

MK has effectively turned the John Pershing article talk page into a battlefield, adopted a strategy that if he repeats the same argument over and over, eventually those who oppose him will get tired and his views will come out on top. There is also the unresolved issue of a possible sockpuppet, being the sudden appearance of Kind Journalist which seems to be a single purpose account to support MKs views. MK went absolutely ballistic when I had a private conversation with User:Xeno about the possibility that this was an SP account but I never made formal charges since I didn't have the evidence. I also, ironically, didn't even use MKs name. Nevertheless, MK has filled Xeno's talk page with a very harsh thread, using terms like "this is horseshit", demanding an investigation (see:User talk:Xeno) and also has approached another admin as well even though this never made it off Xeno's own page and no formal charges were ever filed. Nevertheless, MK states he has been "falsely accused" and wants a full investigation.

In short, something needs to be done about MKs editing behavior as this has gone on long enough. The user is clearly not working with others, misrepresenting the views of other editors, and now committing personal attacks (i.e. "Kiss Usama bin Laden's" ass). A clear case of Tendentious editing and I ask something be done about this. -OberRanks (talk) 13:28, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I note the mediation was rejected due to one party saying on 3 April that they were not "convinced [participants have] exhausted [their] options in terms of just talking to each other...it is the wrong outlet at this time." . Perhaps mediation should be revisited? – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 13:38, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This is utter nonsense, and I have no plans to adress it futrher. This all began when OberRanks made false accusations of sockpuppetry against me on Xeno's talkpage. When he learned of my intentions to take action against him, he resumed his childish nonsense, as can be seen by his two trips here in as many days.As for mediation, whilst I won't rule it out, I can no longer assume good faith with OberRanks, after what he wrote on your talk page, and his latest triva here.Mk5384 (talk) 13:47, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Administrators may also wish to review this thread: Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents and this posting. -OberRanks (talk) 13:57, 26 April 2010 (UTC) Also,after taking the time to actually read his drivel in its entirety, no, I was not caught in a lie, nor did I "quietly" do anything. The user struck his name, and, as I was the one who posted it, I summarily removed it. Also, the user in question's support for "Nigger Jack" can be found all over the talk page. They have obviously changed their mind, which is absolutely fine. But again, I have a hard time believing that OberRanks truly doesn't understand all of these things, and is making these posts in good faith. Again, as I have said, he got caught on Xeno's talk page with his SP BS, and has been making these premptive strikes ever since, in an attempt to cover his own ass.Mk5384 (talk) 14:21, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * OK; I'll bite. I'll AGF here, and assume OberRanks' cluelessness is genuine, and he's not just pretending to be stupid. I never told him to "go kiss Usama bin Laden's ass". What I said, was, that if Usama bin Laden came to the Pershing talk page, and supported the exclusion of "Nigger Jack", OberRanks would run to kiss his ass. Big difference, but again, I'll assume OberRanks is genuinely confused. That was, of course, in reference to OberRanks immediately throwing his support behind anyone whom he thinks supports his version of how the article should be. OberRanks didn't even realize that the user in question supports the nickname that he hates so much.Mk5384 (talk) 14:09, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I reiterate my dismay that mediation didn't take hold; has there been an RFCtag on the issue, to gather additional outside input? – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 14:39, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * At this point, I'm not too concerned with whether that name is in the article or not. The entire point here is that MK has engaged in misrepresentation of other editors and has engaged in personal attacks.  And, for the record, I am not sure who Kind Journalist is; all I know is it appears to be a single purpose account, controlled by whom is an unknown factor, but its appearance on the article, and then counted as a "vote", is very questionable.  I will also say there is a recurring theme here - nothing is ever MKs fault, he is never the one who is edit warring, it is always other people and other people are always to blame.  That is my concern here and I turn this over to the administrators for any action that they see fit. -OberRanks (talk) 14:56, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The RFC is an excellent idea. I wish to reiterate that everything had been fine. All of us were working together in a manner most civil to resolve our differences, until OR made his false accusations. Instead of simply apologising, he decided to take the low road, insisting that he had done no wrong, whilst resuming his daily trips here to report me for some imaginary infraction.Mk5384 (talk) 15:02, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Mk5384 has been obsessed with this one item for some time now, including personal attacks and also a false claim of "censorship" - all of which was probably noted in the previous ANI thread. He keeps trying to conduct new polls within the talk page in hopes of building "consensus" for forcing the N-word into the infobox, when this detail is already covered in the article. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:12, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Not true at all. I have almost 2000 edits, the vast majority of which have nothing to do with John Pershing. Bugs himself has made personal attacks on the talk page, and the claim of censorship is not at all false. Some users, such as Bugs, are hiding behind the fact that the name is used in the article to bolster support for censoring the info box, whilst claiming that censorship is not at play.Mk5384 (talk) 15:31, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, so you have nothing whatsoever to lose from dropping the stick and walking away, which I hope you will now do. I think everybody else is sick to the back teeth of this, and as far as I can see most people (read: everyone but you) seems to consider the current coverage in the article to be no problem at all. It's time to move on, you are not making yourself look good. Guy (Help!) 15:35, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I once read something about a "subject ban" for users who were extremely disruptive on articles but didn't fully cross into the territory of vandalism or blatant blockable offenses. That might be what is needed here, especially if MK drops this for now but returns later to again begin another attempt to force yet again his opinions on the page. -OberRanks (talk) 17:41, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Here he is saying another user "lied" simply because he decided to post again. Can something be done? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:13, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, please stop with the misleading attacks against me. It was not "simply because he decided to post again". It was because he said that his previous post would be the last one on the matter. Mk5384 (talk) 22:20, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Changing his mind doesn't make him a liar. You need to redact that "lie" comment ASAP. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:27, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

I said some of this on the article of the talk page, but MK has adopted a policy of repeating the same arguments as many times as possible, over and over again, mixed in with half truths and personal attacks, until this user gets his way. MK is not backing down and will continue filling the Pershing talk page with pages of argument until at last all users are exhausted, and MK can rack up his "victory". I also like to point out there have been numerous personal attacks and clear violations of WP:CIV littered in amongst his posts, as well as the unresolved issue of putting several users in a "consensus vote" who did not ever express the views as portrayed by MK. This would perhaps be understandable if MK didn't have a history of behaving this way, if users hadn't worked weeks to build a compromise, and if MK was now trying to tear that compromise down because MK didn't get his way the first, second, and third time. As Bugs said, we need to do something about this. -OberRanks (talk) 22:30, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The fact is that 2 users have now decided to gang up on me here. Enough is enough. Continue to write whatever you like about me. I will no longer defend myself here against a pincer attack filled with baseless charges. This is my final post here, and that is not a lie.Mk5384 (talk) 22:39, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Our lenghty thread really appeared to accomplish little, as few to no administrators commented. I am little bit disappointed that the "Usama bin Laden" comment was allowed to pass - I truly find that insulting since I did serve a tour in the Middle East, including missions off the coast of Iran. Not much else to discuss though and this seems to be a dead issue as there is now new progress on the Pershing article. Best to everyone then. -OberRanks (talk) 15:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That comment wasn't appropriate, but probably did not rise to the level of demanding a block. WP:WQA is the correct venue for civility concerns of this nature. – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 15:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Kind Journalist
Since MK is also obsessed with "clearing his name" with regards to a sockpuppet accusation  (which actually never happened since the conversation didn't use MKs handle and was kept solely on the talk page of User:Xeno without any formal SP charges filed) here is the record of my opinion of user:Kind Journalist. The user is quite clearly not MK. The two do not write in the same manner, use the same grammar syntax, and KJ does not have a flair for temper as MK does. Kind Journalist's arrival on the Pershing article was, however,extremely well timed and very convenient. I will preface this by saying I have absolutely no evidence this user is up to no good but here is what I observed: Again, I have no evidence of who this is or what this user is about, and I may be very badly mistaken here. I just find it strange that out of nowhere this supporter of MK appears, with no previous contributions on this account, showing extensive knowledge of Wikipedia pages and also even referenced the WP:DGAF page which had mentioned way back in one of the original threads on the Pershing article. I find all of this a little bit too convenient and the timing of this is quite suspicious as well. So, that's what I think and I have no evidence. If I am wrong, I offer my deepest and sincerest apologies to Kind Journalist. -OberRanks (talk) 22:44, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Kind Journalist arrived at the Pershing talk page some two hours after MK had proposed the idea to overturn the last consensus and begin a new poll and vote.
 * 2) Kind Journalist at once began supporting MKs views
 * 3) Kind Journalist showed extensive knowledge of Wikipedia policy pages and the ability to in-link.  The KJ account had not made a single edit prior to visiting the Pershing talk page and has not made an edit on any other article since then.
 * 4) When questioned about this, Kind Journalist stated he had edited Wikipedia for years but had only now decided to make an account.
 * For some mild amusement, check out the irony dripping from this comment of MK's: ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:44, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not convinced they're socks either, although it's obvious KJ is very knowledgeable about wikipedia, including lecturing his audience (even an admin) about policy matters, as MK does, especially the false claim of "censorship". It's also the case that so far, with one exception (21:18 on the 21st), KJ has appeared only during time gaps when MK is not editing. The one time they did cross over is when MK showed up during an hour in which KJ did not edit. When MK is calm, he can sound more like KJ. KJ has stated he would welcome an SPI. At this point I'm not convinced that the "duck test" applies, so an SPI would likely be rejected. KJ did betray a teenage-ism akin to MK's approach when he referred to the idea of removing both nicknames as a "pussy move". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:49, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Excessively Brief
And another newbie heard from:



-- ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:58, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Amazing. Excessively Brief (talk) 00:32, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You're too modest. Try "extraordinary". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:46, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A second editor with no prior edits showing up on this highly controversial subject seemingly to support MKs view, also with knowledge of how to locate an embedded topic deep on the admin noticeboard. To quote General Buck Turgidson  in Dr. Strangelove, "I smell a big fat Commie rat", or at least perhaps a meatpuppet. -OberRanks (talk) 00:50, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Or to quote Robert Wuhl in Bull Durham, "It's a miracle!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:12, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Q.E.D.? Excessively Brief (talk) 01:08, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Which ID did you used to edit under? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:12, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Not: User:Wahkeenah. Excessively Brief (talk) 01:35, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Bloody well better not be! ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:37, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, all kidding aside, this really looks the insertion of a meatpuppet into the Pershing article. I can maybe buy KJ's story about just happenineg to deciede that it was time to edit this article on the particular day MK was purposing a major change, but for this to happen two times in a row so close together is obvious single purpose accounts meant to bolster support. I have suggested that we end this on the talk page of the article and, as for these accounts, administrators might wish to seriously investigate what is going on here. -OberRanks (talk) 01:29, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I wish for administrators to seriously investigate what is going on here. OberRanks has openly accused me of meatpuppetry. I can't state this any more clearly. I do not know either one of these editors. I have never met either one of these editors. I have had absolutely no contact outside of Wikipedia with either of these editors. And most importantly, neither one of these editors is I. Please, please, please investigate this. How can someone continue to openly accuse me of something false here? And it awes me that whilst I am the one most vociferously calling for an investigation, it is not taking place. Meanwhile OR and BB continue to make these accusations without fear of repercussions. This is just unacceptable. What is it going to take for an investigation?Mk5384 (talk) 05:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not accuse you of anything. In fact, I suspect that one or both of these guys is a long-standing sock-maker whose usual M.O. is to take one side or the other in hopes of fanning flames. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the clarification.Mk5384 (talk) 11:45, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Its becoming clear that MK probably had little to nothing to do with Kind Journalist or Excessively Brief, but those two accounts are clearly single purpose puppet accounts controlled by someone for an unknown reason. KJ perhaps I can see past it, but EB isn't really even trying to hide it.  The best thing to do is ignore both since there is now a new flood of legit users on the Pershing article giving their opinions. -OberRanks (talk) 15:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This is typical OberRanks behaviour. "Ignore those who agree with MK5384, as more who are in agreement with me are now coming forward." Notice, whilst he finally admits that he was wrong, he still is not moved to apologise.Mk5384 (talk) 22:16, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I blocked the obvious alternate account per WP:SOCK - and that's without caring whose alt account it is (it could be Jimbo for all I care), we seriously do not need people socking or engaging in meatpuppetry on that article right now. Guy (Help!) 07:54, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

SPA accounts and consensus building
While there is no evidence of wrongdoing, the appearance of several SPA accounts is fairly irregular indeed; so I would again suggest an RFCtag on the article talk page to ensure that a representative sample of editors is being drawn to determine consensus as to the infobox. – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 13:07, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Done.Mk5384 (talk) 15:01, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Now done properly ;> . – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 15:06, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry; my fault.Mk5384 (talk) 22:14, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Sholom Rubashkin
Please watch the Sholom Rubashkin article for vandalism this week. There have been some big deletions by anons. Rubashkin's sentencing for his role in the Agriprocessors debacle is this week, and his supporters have been lobbying to get his sentence reduced. Some of that has spilled onto Wikipedia. --John Nagle (talk) 18:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm just a normal editor, but i'll keep watch over the article with you and get rid of any vandalism that crops up. :3 Silver  seren C 20:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If it does flare up badly, request page protection. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There's an organized campaign behind this. It's received press coverage on ABC News."Kosher Meat Plant Owner Wages Behind-the-Scenes Campaign to Limit Jail Time".  Edits are coming in from new single-purpose accounts.   tried pasting a big chunk of content from advocacy web site Justice for Sholom into the article.    and   are also new, have edited no other articles, and are adding "Justice for Sholom" content. 48 hours of semi-protection would probably quiet this down. --John Nagle (talk) 02:10, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've semi-protected the page. Ged  UK  08:09, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Personal attack on userpage
Can an admin deal with the personal attack on me at User:CauseIsayso (whose userpage is now a mirror of mine, with a personal attack against me, apparently in disgruntlement over this edit)? Many thanks. THF (talk) 09:04, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Page deleted and editor indef blocked as a disruptive SPA (review welcome), although we didn't exactly cover ourselves in glory with how we dealt with their now-deleted user page. ⇦REDVƎRS⇨ 09:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Pedophilia advocacy on Lolicon
Given the current ArbCom ruling about pedophilia advocacy on Wikipedia, I would like to bring this edit to the attention of the administrators. The edit by advocates for the legalization of cartoon pornography depicting minors. —Farix (t &#124; c) 23:08, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I hope that a warning will be sufficient; I've added this user's talk page to my watchlist, too, in hopes that I'll notice if there's an ongoing problem. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:10, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I hope so, but admitting to being a paedophile here (or almost anywhere) seems to be an invitation to "string me up from the nearest lamppost"; arguing for the legality of certain images (which in general are not illegal) is not necessarily "pedophilia advocacy", since the status and effect of these images is moot. However, I will also watch this editor (who hasn't been advised of this thread). Neither should we rule out a journalist testing us, or just plain trolling. Rodhull  andemu  23:16, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Good lord. "I am an actual pedophile but I have never harmed a child." It's probably a troll, so block them. But if it's not a troll, it's a self-admitted pedophile let lose in a playground filled with children. Perhaps wikipedia will help him get started? Where's the block? (If he needs graphic cartoon pornography involving children, he can get it elsewhere.) This is block on site stuff.Bali ultimate (talk) 23:31, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not aware of any "block pedophiles on sight" policy. Equazcion  ( talk ) 23:32, 25 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * Apparently there is one, as Draconian as it sounds. With arbcom, anything is possible. I'd rather have him blocked for trolling or severe POV pushing (which are both applicable here) than his sexual orientation in itself.  Them From  Space  23:38, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Right -- let him hang around, befriend a few kids, get their emails, suggest a meatup over coffee somewhere after school where they can discuss the kids interesting ideas. Is that what you have in mind themfromspace?Bali ultimate (talk) 23:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Too much moral outrage in that argument for me, and not enough substance. There is such a policy? Where? I'm not seeing any advocacy here or POV pushing. That would be one thing, but all I see here is a sexual deviant (maybe) who happened to speak a little too much of their mind for comfort, and I'm not too fond of the idea of blocking people on that basis. If we are to block admitted pedophiles on sight even when they haven't advocated it or pushed article content in that direction, I think that should be written down in some policy. If there already is such a policy please point us to it. Equazcion  ( talk ) 23:32, 25 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * It's probably just a troll, but he's indef'd now anyway, courtesy of FloNight. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   23:43, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I blocked the account and referred the user to contact ArbCom. For a variety of reasons this account needs to be blocked. Any questions about the block can be taken up with ArbCom on the mailing list. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 23:44, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Makes my intended comments somewhat redundant. Rodhull  andemu  23:46, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree, and I'm also not too fond of the cloak-and-dagger ArbCom practices with regard to any mention of pedophilia. The whole "it's too sensitive to discuss in public" thing is all wrong, IMO. Taking things out of the public eye does not ensure that they get handled correctly. When a group can do things without accountability to open criticism, it's never good. Equazcion  ( talk ) 23:49, 25 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * Right -- screw protecting innocent children! It's a fundamental human right to edit wikipedia! Jesus.Bali ultimate (talk) 23:52, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Equazcion. In this case we are really dealing with a troll. But if convicted criminals can contribute to Wikipedia (from jail or after release), then why not people with politically incorrect sexual orientations? If we have information that someone is a dangerous person who is about to commit a crime, then we are obliged to inform the police about this. Banning from Wikipedia can never be an effective reaction to a perceived threat to society. Count Iblis (talk) 23:53, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I've already said my piece about self-identified pedophiles before. However, so long as some admins interpret the ArbCom case in such a way, then we are going to have to live with it. —Farix (t &#124; c) 00:03, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Let's try not to get bogged down in too much philosophy. The fact is we're dealing with someone who fantasizes about doing something that's a crime. If anyone else described themselves thusly with regard to some other action they wouldn't get banned. FloNight has done this before, and rest assured it's not to protect the children. It's to protect the reputation of Wikipedia in the press, specifically in publications that would take pedophilia-related discussion and twist it into some statement that Wikipedia condones pedophilia. As strange as it may sound, a discussion regarding someone who fantasizes about murder would not have resulted similarly. Pedophilia is simply too taboo a subject to even hint that we are comfortable talking about it, lest people judge Wikipedia for it. That's the only concern here, and it frankly disgusts me. Equazcion  ( talk ) 00:00, 26 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * I couldn't give one runny shit for wikipedia's reputation. I don't know Flonight. But the right thing was done here. As for disgust. Well, you disgust me frankly. Why? Well, start here: Child grooming (i'm assuming the wikipedia article is a relatively sane explanation of the problem, though i haven't read it).Bali ultimate (talk) 00:04, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

This is taking outside Wikipedia what is our province, and ours alone. ArbCom has decided that pedophile advocacy should be forbidden from here, and that is to my mind correct for here. That is quite a different proposition from deciding that a "pedophile advocate" is necessarily a criminal worthy of investigation, and actually I'm more or less aware that such edits here are already supervised by law enforcement authorities, and although we will help them, the chances would be that those people are already under surveillance due to other activities. Let's face it, if you are a criminal pedophile, advertising it here just isn't smart, because we do have Checkusers, and the WMF Office, who deal with this sort of thing. And if there were any child grooming on Wikipedia, it would be spotted he more quickly than on, say, Windows Messenger. That's why this is an unlikely forum for such. Some reality would assist here. Rodhull andemu  00:09, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Realizing you weren't responding to me, I just want to clarify that the only thing I see actually being advocated in this person's comment was the legalization of lolicon images. Pedophilia wasn't being advocated, even if he states his own desires regarding that.  Equazcion  ( talk ) 00:18, 26 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * Also his argument implicitely assumes that pedophilia (in the sense of sex with children) is a bad thing. Count Iblis (talk) 00:23, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand that; I saw no advocacy beyond perhaps a criticism of the law wherever he is. However, it seems to be enough here to state "I am a pedophile" to ensure an indefinite block. It is not up to me to evaluate that here, beyond offering an opinion that it's a foolish thing to state in a very public forum. However, the strength of public, and journalistic, opinion is that pedophiles do not deserve the oxygen of publicity, or even the oxygen of oxygen, and I note that Pete Townshend has not produced much in the way of memorable music of late. Rodhull  andemu  00:26, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * But that would suggest that Alan Turing would not have been allowed to contribute to Wikipedia had it existed in the 1950s. Count Iblis (talk) 00:35, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * We could throw up our hands thusly and say that's just how society works and we must obey, but traditionally Wikipedia has played by its own rules in that department. No matter how many complaints we keep getting and how different it makes us from other websites, we're still uncensored to an unprecedented degree. I would've liked to think that those ideals were in effect no matter how taboo the subject matter. Equazcion  ( talk ) 00:47, 26 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * Turing was never "out", because in those days homosexual activities were criminal, although simply being a homosexual wasn't. Similar argument here. Being a pedophile doesn't imply that one commits criminal offences, although you'd be hard put to discern the difference these days. And that's the problem we have, in discriminating between the desire and the practice. Most people don't recognise that, as far as I have seen in my research in criminology. Turing would have been perfectly capable of contributing here on computability and cryptanalytical issues, but would not have exposed his sexuality, because he was perfectly aware that it was a social taboo. Certainly he would not have used such a publicly-viewable website to try to make sexual liaisons, because he would have know beyond doubt that his activities would have been visible. And how ironic it is that he chose to take his life with a cyanide-laced apple, the very symbol of man's original fall, according to the Bible. Rodhull  andemu  00:55, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

The original report appears to have been resolved (for good or ill) by Despondent2's blocking. Could this thread be taken elsewehere, as it seems now to be a general discussion outwith the AN/I remit? Tonywalton Talk 00:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * (EC)Editing Wikipedia isn't a right. Espousing pedophiliac views are frowned upon by the community here at large and by those in charge at WMF. Why do we have this discussion every time a pedo shows his head around here? Does anyone really think the concensus on this matter is ever gonna change? He popped up his head, got whacked and referred to ARBCOM. End of story, someone close this dram fueled thread and let it die. Heironymous Rowe (talk) 00:53, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

The weird thing to me is that the article in question has a picture, but when someone say "I like this picture," it's a block? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 00:59, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Per ArbCom User:Flo Night: "For a variety of reasons this account needs to be blocked"; we don't have the full information here, but we do, perhaps, need to trust the people we elected there. Rodhull  andemu  01:06, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with that logic. I don't inherently get behind the decisions of people just because they were elected (even if I was involved in getting them elected, which in this case I wasn't). I judge each action individually, and criticize it if necessary, which I think is my right. Equazcion  ( talk ) 01:15, 26 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * Well I can't actually disagree with that, but we all know that Checkuser actions and WMF Office actions are not open to general scrutiny- they just happen. The lack of an effective public review of such actions may be open to criticism, but the reality is that that is the way it works, and we cannot collectively enforce openness without a major change in the structure of governance/control/review of higher-level decisions, and until we do so (although that would take a major sea-change in philosophy here) we are stuck with what we have. ArbCom/Checkuser/Oversight appointments are not made lightly and are less of a beauty contest than admin appointments have become. Some surrender of individual responsibility and understanding appears to me to be a necessary result of having these functions, although I doubt that we are so closed that individual decisions cannot be met by a appropriate explanation. I vote for functionaries I trust, and that is on the basis of their prevailing record, as far as I can see it. But if they go beyond their remit, believe me, I will question that, but perhaps not here. I've have many discussions in private that have allayed my fears. Rodhull  andemu  01:30, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Just because this is driving me crazy: the repeated reference in this discussion to pedophilia as a "sexual orientation" is a very poor and inaccurate choice of words. Pedophilia is a psychological disorder that, if acted upon, is a criminal act. It is not a sexual orientation. <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk) 01:02, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily. You should distinguish between the DSM-IV definition and the popular definition; they are not necessarily congruent. Rodhull  andemu  01:06, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Somewhat common misconception ≠ a definition. In any event, I suspect this account was merely a troll looking for attention, and we certainly obliged.  <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  01:21, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And on that basis, this discussion deserves to be closed. Serious discussions about the powers/responsibilities of ArbCom belong elsewhere, as do discussions of what actually amounts to "pedophile advocacy". But this case seems to have run its course. Rodhull  andemu  01:33, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

What arbcom ruling are people referencing above? Does someone have a link? Buddy431 (talk) 05:34, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It is not advertised (not that I can recall), but the general rule is that all instances of paedophile advocacy should be referred to ArbCom by email - in much the same way as requests for oversight, and for similar reasons. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And one of these days, we're going to do a Pornish Pixies, and whoever labelled the account holder a paedophile is going to get the ass sued off them.Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:10, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * As far as I'm aware, there has been no formal, public ruling. In practice, what happens is that every time a discussion similar to the one above takes place, an ArbCom member will come along, close the discussion, and inform the participants that if they want to say anything, they should submit it to the ArbCom mailing list. --Carnildo (talk) 22:28, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * There was an official ANI comment by Fred Bauder back while he was on Arbcom, to the effect that admins should handle cases of apparent pedophile participation by blocking on sight on their judgement and referring the case to the Arbitration Committee for review and if necessary overturning.
 * This policy has been repeated in statements made by other Arbcom members at regular intervals since then.
 * It's not written down as official policy anywhere, but that's what they've asked us to do.
 * Part of the reason here is that any pedophilia activity is especially damaging to the encyclopedia reputation and separately to the community here, which has quite a number of minors. Jimmy originally established the policy, I believe that Arbcom and the Foundation have requested that it be treated that way.
 * Another part is that even false accusations or honest mistaken identifications will require relatively frank and open discussion regarding an appeal, which is not likely to be successful on-wiki because of onslaughts of both vehement anti-pedophile activists and vehement free speech advocates who disagree with the protective principle established by Arbcom, the Foundation, and Jimmy on this subject. The particulars of a given case get lost either way.
 * This is part of why we have Arbcom - we know that some issues, including personal identification, checkuser related stuff, and other topics, require special and careful handling. They can handle the issues in confidence.
 * I dug up Fred's original post when this question came up mid-last year-ish and linked to it, but I lost the reference since then. Someone else can probably find it searching on ANI and Pedophilia in the history.
 * Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Where's the appropriate place to discuss this type of thing (i.e. blocking suspected pedophiles and referring them to Arbcom even if they haven't violated any of our written policies)? Because I'm not sure I agree with it, and I certainly don't like all this cloak and dagger/unwritten rules/arbitrary block mode of operation.  If it is policy, I'd like it written down somewhere Buddy431 (talk) 02:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The obvious originating locale for us is perhaps WP:RFC. In the absence of a documented ArbCom decision or policy, there seems to be no scope for a request for clarification. Unhelpful, perhaps, but perhaps some sort of statement of principles would be better than what we have now. * Addendum: perhaps this is better addressed as a WMF issue across all umbrella projects than just here; it's an issue that clearly also impacts on Commons. Rodhull  andemu  02:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The Foundation (Board) have quietly supported this when asked.
 * Though it's controversial, meta-discussions about this have revealed that a majority of editors agree with blocking preventively given reasonable suspicion. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:35, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Not commenting on the merits of such a policy at all, I will say that if this is the standard practice (and it appears to be), there's no need to be so damn coy about it. Pedophilia --MZMcBride (talk) 04:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I thought the first rule of pedophile blocking club is "you don't talk about pedophile blocking club". :-O 69.228.170.24 (talk) 09:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the document has been started now so we'll have to wait and see if it is accepted by WMF, ArbCom and the rest of WP --Jubilee♫ clipman  09:19, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Should this be cross posted somewhere for increased visibility and input? Like village pump? Buddy432 (talk) 15:42, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Most of this thread should be elsewhere, to be frank: "where", is open to question... --Jubilee♫ clipman  15:51, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Taken to Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Wikipedia:Pedophilia|Village Pump. Buddy431 (talk) 20:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * So, how exactly does hebephilia and ephebophilia fit under this unspoken rule? Are those automatic blockable offenses as well, if someone self-describes themselves as one? Or, heaven forbid (sarcasm), creates a template userbox for it? Silver  seren C 20:34, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The current discussion is actually at Wikipedia talk:Pedophilia. Buddy431 (talk) 21:01, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment - all of the new discussion should be added to the above archive and any further discussion should either take place at Wikipedia talk:Pedophilia or the VP (or via email...) Thanks  --Jubilee♫ clipman  21:33, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Fox News gets a word in edgewise on pedophilia
see here 192.12.88.7 (talk) 23:32, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

FOX News article

 * http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/04/27/wikipedia-child-porn-larry-sanger-fbi/?test=latestnews

I would have brought this to Commons, however I feel a mass deletion of this material would impact Wikipedia articles and it should be discussed here. I hope I made the right choice. Equazcion ( talk ) 23:47, 27 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia_Signpost/2010-04-12/Sanger_allegations. AniMate  23:51, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, wasn't aware. The "updated" date on the article says April 27, so I thought it was new. Is/was this being discussed somewhere? Equazcion  ( talk ) 23:56, 27 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think we have anything to worry about here, The FBI can see for themselves what is child porn and what is not, I doubt Mr. Sanger's ridiculous accusations will get much more than a few mentions in the press, which is probably exactly what he wanted to begin with since Citizendium is so much smaller and less well known than WP. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:53, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I would notify Erik Möller, if he has not already been made aware, that he is quoted (and pictured) in that FoxNews article. I would also consider blocking any and all accounts by Mr. Sanger since he is going to the FBI over this (could that be considered a violation of WP:NLT).  I would also recommend that Commons admins actually do a check of the categories listed in the article to make sure we don't have anything in them we shouldn't.  That is a duty we should uphold. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 23:56, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I would pay it no further mind. Fox News is to News what the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is to Democracy.  They are in the business of selling outrage for the purpose of boosting ad revenue.  Larry Sanger personal issues with Wikimedia have long been documented.  This particular story adds nothing of value to the general impression of either subject, and as such, it should be treated as a non-issue.  By giving a story like this airtime, we give it credence.  If we ignore it, we give it the treatment it deserves.  -- Jayron  32  00:02, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I just have to say: "Lilicon"? Really? Yup. "The second, 'Lilicon,' provides cartoons similar in detail and depiction. " That's some prime fact-checking there. Go Foxnews. :D --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:54, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * LOL. Or should that be LIL? 192.12.88.7 (talk) 00:04, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I suggest we do not waste time on this non-issue. Most of us perhaps have better things to be doing. Rodhull  andemu  00:05, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * (after ECs so basically redundant to Rodhullandemu!) This is just attention seeking and I think WP:DENY applies, besides FOX News like a good scandal- regardless of whether it's actually true! That said, I agree with NeutralHomer- Commons admins should double check those cats and blocking the accounts seems reasonable- I think it violates the spirit, if not the letter of NLT. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   00:06, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree, now that I know this is old news, that we shouldn't give it any more attention. I only brought it here because I thought it was something new that we would need to deal with. Feel free to archive this section, anyone. Equazcion  ( talk ) 00:10, 28 Apr 2010 (UTC)


 * Official WMF response. <b style="color:navy;">NW</b> ( Talk ) 11:31, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

user:Whitmore 8621 and MGS: Peace Walker Part II
For the past few days, this user has been blatantly editing a talk page thread that I've already locked down by inserting the archive tag under a response he made after the thread was closed. He's conducting an edit war because of his defiance of the closing rules. Although he's sought Fogeltje's counsel on this matter, I don't think the admin considered that Whitmore was already blocked before for IP meatpuppetry. Judging by the language and the obvious lack of civility, he thinks I am guilty of owning the article (which I'm not) after I told him to stay away from further editing it, when his behavior over the past few months has resulted in a loss of good faith from me. When I closed down that thread, I believed the issue was closed as well, under the principles of WP:STICK. I do not even read the discussion on Fogeltje's talk page nor whitmore's post-closing response because it is not worth responding. His actions are just re-opening old wounds he inflicted on himself. I recommend a topic ban on him if it can help, as well as warning him against tampering closed threads. Any additional editors who can intervene in this matter please do so. Thank you. --Eaglestorm (talk) 06:19, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * This is the lamest edit war I have ever seen. If he wants to get a final word into a discussion sometime on, let him, what does it really matter in the grand scheme of things? Additionally, you are also undoing him fixing his own typos, again something which doesn't really matter. Just let them respond to the comment in the closed thread which they didn't previously reply to, then move on. Whilst I understand the longer term context here, I don't understand why you want a topic ban on them because they want to respond to comments on a topic they are involved in. They stopped their edit warring on the article, and there are no signs of further abuses of IP editing, so I personally don't see a problem.
 * If we are going to go all rules-must-be-followed on this, then unclose the discussion, let him reply, then reclose it as it will be concluded. If he was allowed to take one final comment, for all we know the scenario might be over, so why make it so complicated like this?
 * Finally, as I observed this entire thing before noticing the ANI thread, I would like to point out that you hardly come across as civil. The fact you say you haven't even read what he typed because it is "not worth responding" to is also worrying. Just let him make the final comment to "conclude" the discussion on the talk page, then move any fresh things to a new section. --Taelus (talk) 08:54, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * User notified at this timestamp. In future, Eaglestorm, you should notify all editors involved in an ANI thread of its existance and link them to it. Thanks, --Taelus (talk) 08:57, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Additionally, as another observation, the game was released in Japan today, thus the root of this entire debate between you and Whitmore should resolve itself, as reliable sources discussing the plot will be popping up over the next few days hopefully. May I recommend actively seeking out such sources and starting a new discussion on the talk page about them, thus moving on from the entire "crystal ball" and "original research" issues of the past? --Taelus (talk) 09:02, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

First of all, I never had a intention of causing trouble for Wikipedia with Metal Gear Solid Peace Walker Im sorry for the edit war a few months ago. I was not trying to abuse any users I just wanted to get the last word to end the discussion myself. So could I finish the discussion? --Whitmore 8621 (talk) 11:47, 28 April 2010 (UTC)Whitmore 8621

User:Mapuo1998
I'm not sure where else to raise this, but I'm slightly concerned by someone whose first edit is to declare on their userpage that they want to destroy Wikipedia. HJ Mitchell &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   14:09, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ask him if he has a viable plan.--Cube lurker (talk) 14:14, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe he's the reincarnation of User:Wiki Greek Basketball and/or his "cousin"? ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 14:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Disruptive and tendentious editing rampage by User:Wtsao
Two day old User:Wtsao is on a rampage of disruptive and tendentious editing, having repeatedly declared an overt bias against cloud computing and related topics which they consider overzealous marketing hype before making sweeping changes without any discussion (for example, stripping the Template:Cloud computing article of the vast majority of its content and updating its documentation in support of their changes, making controversial edits en-masse, adding specific content despite acknowledging the existing [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cloud_computing&oldid=358622486#The_lead.2C_one_sentence._That.27s_all_I_ask. consensus] that it be excluded, promoting a criticism section to the top of the article despite consensus that it be integrated/removed "so that the reader is warned to read the rest of the entry with a generous portion of salt", "as in, read this before you drink the kool aid", removing diagrams as "wrong" and "unhelpful", tagging the article with COI without providing any supporting policy violations, edit warring with mass reversions here, here, here and here - which are borderline WP:3RR violations if you consider their earlier reversions the day before, removing an entire, well sourced section on research, etc.). Most of their edits are disruptive and their summaries and interactions abrasive - indeed I didn't see a single edit that wasn't controversial.

Rather than risk violating WP:3RR myself, I ask that you revert their mass changes here and here and encourage them to seek clear consensus on the talk pages before making edits that could be considered controversial. I suggest that a short cool down block may be in order (perhaps 24 hours), particularly in light of a long string of what I consider to be personal attacks and my repeated warnings. My identity is no secret, nor is the fact that I very recently took a position at Google and thus need to tread carefully with controverial edits (I have since gone to great lengths to reach consensus where I might have been WP:BOLD previously). Nevertheless I have been accused of WP:COI without supporting policy violations, for edits that predates my employment by years, no less than TEN TIMES in the space of the last hour. I've also been accused of vandalism for reverting their rampage and of "bad behaviour in a new section on an article talk page. I don't appreciate such accusations, particularly from a new user who is out to satisfy a clearly stated agenda. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">samj <sub style="color:maroon;">in <sup style="color:green;">out 11:36, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I see edit warring under the guise of "reverting vandalism" when you were restoring the template to its previous form. Not knowing the contributor, it's possible that he believes that your actions were vandalism, as there seems to be either unfamiliarity with or a profound misunderstanding of WP:CONSENSUS in this edit summary: "There is no excuse for bulk undoing my edits." To quote, "When an edit is made, other editors have these options: accept the edit, change the edit, or revert the edit. These options may be discussed if necessary." As a new contributor, it's possible that User:Wtsao is unfamiliar with the bold, revert, discuss cycle.


 * I see that the Cloud computing article has already been reverted; I'll leave the template for interested contributors in the interest of staying WP:UNINVOLVED (in the spirit of WP:PREFER, though I'm not protecting). I personally think a strong caution and explanation might suffice at this point, though a block will be appropriate if the edit warring continues. I don't object if another admin feels stronger action is called for. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:37, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Now that I've left him a note, I have to say that it's possible that any confusion he has over the term of "vandalism" may arise from your note to him here. At least on casual review, he doesn't seem to have used it before you did. I see another user has already reminded you about WP:BOLD and WP:AGF. To that, I'll add Please do not bite the newcomers. Remember (per WP:VAND) that "Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism." His edits may have been non-neutral (I do not know, not being familiar with the subject), but WP:VAND specifically excludes non-neutral text. The template you left him is not my major concern, although it can certainly be seen as dismissive and disrespectful to good faith efforts, but the header is rather more pointed. More from that policy: "Avoid the word "vandal". In particular, this word should not be used to refer to any contributor in good standing, or to any edits that might have been made in good faith. This is because if the edits were made in good faith, they are not vandalism." Besides being inaccurate and a policy violation in itself, calling somebody's good faith efforts vandalism is only likely to inflame the situation and make reaching consensus more difficult. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 16:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Is it just me, or does this look like somebody may be logging out to avoid 3RR to anyone else? --Moonriddengirl (talk) 22:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * <edit conflict - my thoughts exactly> Section blanking here, here and here is arguably vandalism, particularly in the context of the other edits. In any case I would have reverted the "reminder" had they not already commented on it. I'm now more concerned about this edit "revert[ing an administrator's reversion] to a more neutral version by Wtsao [because] he has a point", this re-reversion by cluebot (as possible vandalism) and this edit re-re-reverting with the summary of who let this bot loose?? Note that User:79.181.50.218 is a WP:SPA has only ever made these two edits which would suggest to me that a WP:CHECKUSER is in order. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">samj <sub style="color:maroon;">in <sup style="color:green;">out 22:33, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * You can bring that up for at WP:SPI if you want, or perhaps an admin who works that area more will weigh in. In the meantime, I have in accordance with WP:PREFER reverted to the last version prior to the onset of the edit war (specifically this one) and fully protected for three days. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 22:40, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * But just to clarify, as WP:VAND explains, blanking is vandalism when "[r]emoving all or significant parts of a page's content without any reason" (emphasis added); it isn't vandalism "where a non-frivolous explanation for the removal of apparently legitimate content is provided, linked to, or referenced in an edit summary." Even if you think they aren't good reasons (and they may not be), the removal isn't vandalism if it's done in an effort to improve the article. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 23:44, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks for clarifying. I've opened an WP:SPI and asked for WP:CHECKUSER at Sockpuppet_investigations/Wtsao. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">samj <sub style="color:maroon;">in <sup style="color:green;">out 00:20, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ...which was declined so the ball's back in our court now. -- <u style="text-decoration:none; font-family: papyrus;">samj <sub style="color:maroon;">in <sup style="color:green;">out 14:45, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Blocked 72h for quacking too loudly. Tim Song (talk) 18:19, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Request for assistance regarding Muhammad Ali Jinnah
I've merged these two sections, are they are quite obviously about the same thing. That aside, it appears as if Paki copied Gimme's own thread, then changed a few minor things. No comment otherwise.—  Dæ dαlus Contribs 04:19, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

User:Paki90
is regularly removing sourced content from the Muhammad Ali Jinnah article. The user avoids 3RR but this has gone on for months, if not years, and user has not expressed any willingness to compromise. Would an uninvolved admin please intervene, blocking Paki90 if appropriate? Gimmetrow 02:43, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

User:Gimmetrow
and his fellow are regularly removing sourced content from the Muhammad Ali Jinnah's article. and old revision, both user edits are evident of being based on sectarian hate against Shia Muslim personalities and spreading confusion and misleading the readers. They have been doing this not just on articles related to Jinnah but they were repeatedly vandalizing articles related to other Shia personalities like, Asif Ali Zardari, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, Benazir Bhutto. As per verifiability and reliable source are concerned many of their references are self-published and do not satisfy the Wiki criteria. These users are quoting sources that are void and biased. I have always tried to maintain the neutrality of the article but they are always removing the sourced content. I have repeatedly explained my case on my talk-page, and on the discussion pages, but they aren't willing to understand and realize that they are repeatedly vandalizing the article, and when ever i revert the article to its genuine sourced originality they argue it and re-edit their old reverted version. They have failed to maintain the neutrality of Jinnah and are not willing to accept multiple sourced edits by me, based on genuine claims. Here by I'll request you to foresee both users, they too avoid 3RR and have been doing this again and again. They have no will to accept sourced facts regarding Jinnah being a Shia and are not willing to compromise at all. Hence would the respected Admin intervene, and block and  from further editing on articles related to [Category:Pakistani Shi'a Muslims]. My contribution to Wikipedia is immense, and i have been following the rules and regulation as a proud Wikipedian.Thank You!Paki90 (talk) 04:02, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

I know I am not involved in this issue and I know that I am not an administrator but I would like to point out that as a regular ordinary person from a working class background I find User:Paki90's account name offense. As would I find Gog90, N*gger90, etc offensive. I know its a seperate issue but since this is the page for administrators and his name has popped up I think it should be changed on the grounds of racism. The term "Paki" is offensive and degrading. Certainly if I saw it in an edit summary I'd be worried about potential racism. Lil-unique1 (talk) 04:39, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Is calling yourself Paki90 not offensive to anyone else?
 * I may be naive about this, and I'm sorry if I am, but I never knew that phrase to be offensive. Shadowjams (talk) 07:07, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It is a racial denonym, comes from the larg number of emigrants from Paki stan into the UK post WWII. Mjroots (talk) 08:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * See List of ethnic slurs. Mjroots (talk) 08:54, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've blocked for the username violation (and only for that reason). Explained why the name is a violation and said that if the editor wishes to comment to do so on their talk page so that their comments may be copied over. Mjroots (talk) 08:54, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Is this an over-reaction? The user claims to be a citizen of Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Xxanthippe (talk) 09:28, 28 April 2010 (UTC).
 * I don't think that this is an over-reaction. Another editor has already stated that they find the name offensive, and the term "Paki" is on the list of ethnic slurs linked to above. It's not unreasonable that an editor with an offensive username is asked to change it to something else. Mjroots (talk) 10:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The thing about "Paki" is that it is not necessarily offensive when used within a community, but used by people outside that community it can be very offensive. It is certainly potentially offensive, and I think it's very reasonable that it is treated as such. (This article is interesting reading about the subject). --bonadea contributions talk 10:25, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This looks like racial profiling to me. I would like to know the views of User:Paki90 about this matter. Xxanthippe (talk) 11:50, 28 April 2010 (UTC).
 * I have realized it is a racial slur, but certainly not when its is being used by a Pakistani, in Pakistan mostly people use this term to label themselves as Pakistanis. Many Ex-pats living in UK might consider this racial slur, but certainly it ain't racial when it is used by a Pakistani. For this very reason my account is now in jeopardy, i have requested a change in my username, but i worry all my contribution might get lost. Somebody help me out!Paki90 (talk) 12:24, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Your contributions won't be lost, don't worry. Although I understand your reasoning, I think changing your username is a wise idea! The notes at Changing username/Simple say If you want your edits from your old account to be reattributed to your new account, do NOT create the new account first. Rather, request a name change here. [...] The process responsible for reallocating your old contributions may take some time. This is perfectly normal. Updates should take at most a day to complete, although it may take longer if you have a lot of edits and/or the "job queue" mechanism is very busy - so your edits will be reallocated to your new name, with no loss of contributions! --  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 12:42, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

As a person of Pakistani origin i do believe the word "Paki" is generally racist although context does matter for example if you are having banter with friends or other Asian people. However on wikipedia my point is that anyone could come across the term User:Paki90 in editing an article and take it offensively or assume that he himself is a racist editor. It is sensible to a user account name change under those circumstances.Lil-unique1 (talk) 14:46, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Also now that we've addressed that could admins please get back to addressing the issues for which the ANI was filed? (sorry steering the discussion away but it was a valid issue no personal feelings or anything purely objective).Lil-unique1 (talk) 14:48, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Paki90's claims are baseless, bordering on the absurd. The "sectarian hate" claim is a violation of WP:AGF. He did not provide any examples of Gimmetrow or me removing sourced content, and I don't think there are any to be found. I did remove some "sources" added by Paki90 here, because they didn't say what they were supposed to source. Similarly, Gimmetrow also removed irrelevant or duplicate "sources". Neither Gimmetrow nor I edited Zulfikar Ali Bhutto in the past two years (and I didn't check further back). I'm also not a regular contributor to Benazir Bhutto, where Gimmetrow seems to have been engaged in combating anon vandalism. I do edit Asif Ali Zardari, but there ironically I tend to re-add the Shia denomination, because that's what the most reliable sources say about Zardari. See for example here or here. But for Jinnah, sources disagree about his religion. Vali Nasr, an American scholar, says that Jinnah belonged (or converted) to Twelver Shia Islam, and that's what the article reports. Yet his daughter is currently engaged in a court case where she argues that Jinnah was (when he died) a Khoja Shia muslim, which would imply a different distribution of his inheritance. Other relatives have sued and claimed that Jinnah had converted to Sunni Islam, which again would imply a different distribution of the inheritance. Any mention of (most of) these claims is routinely removed by Paki90, no matter that they have been reported in newspapers. Still other newspaper articles claim that Jinnah avoided any sectarian label at all, and the courts ruled him "neither Shia nor Sunni", but Paki90 again fights for the removal of all such mentions, as documented by Gimmetrow above. Note that when Paki90 actually did find a relevant source, an online excerpt of Vali Nasr's book we use as a reference, Gimmetrow readily incorporated it. Huon (talk) 15:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

User:Kwamikagami and his Misuse of Admin Tools

 * Methinks I spoke too soon. Evidence of similar problems is arising...- Jayron  32  19:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Kwamikagami, an admin, is involved in an edit war with myself over the pronunciation of the name of the town of Stephens City, Virginia. I previously had it as "ˈstē-vənz ˈsi-tē" in the pronEng template. Kwamikagami changed it to the incorrect "Steven's City". It is incorrect as there is no apostrophe in the name and putting it this way gives the reader the idea that the town has two names. We both broke 3RR (I will clearly admit that), but what made this ANI material was that Kwamikagami reverted to his perfered version and then locked the page. Clearly breaking a BIG admin rule that other admins have been blocked for.

I feel that Kwamikagami has misused his admin tools in an edit war of which he is clearly involved and broke 3RR. I do understand that if he is blocked it is only fair that I am as well, since I am over 3RR myself, but I feel that admins should be held to a higher standard and Kwamikagami should know better. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 17:58, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have notified the user of this post. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 18:02, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Reverting vandalism does not count against 3RR, though perhaps it's debatable whether pointy blanking of an article counts as vandalism. I said I would unblock as soon as NH agrees to stop doing that. Meanwhile, I'm debating the inappropriate use of a pronunciation template, which he has not bothered to review, with s.o. who does not understand what 'X, pronounced "Y"' means. — kwami (talk) 18:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I was not warned for vandalism and only after I notified Kwamikagami that he was, himself, nearing 3RR, did he start calling this vandalism as an end-run around the rules. He also said this isn't "I See Sam" and were "weren't targeting idiots"...funny, but inappropriate.  I have also been banned from Kwamikagami's talk page, so it would be impossible for me to discuss anything further with him other than here.  He has simply painted himself into a corner. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 18:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Please link to the dif where you were banned from Kwami's talk page, thanks. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 18:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Was doing that, but got edit conflicted. Diffs are in the updated above post. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 18:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I have to concur with Neutralhomer - this was an edit war, and Kwamikagami protected his preferred version. What blanking and/or vandalism are you talking about? Removing the pronunciation that you two were edit warring over is hardly "blanking", and it is certainly not "vandalism" to edit war. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 18:09, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The edits are clearly not vandalism. This is a simple content dispute and protection was inappropriate.  If these were both non-admin users, they would both be blocked for 3RR.  -- Mufka (u) (t) (c) 18:12, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And since they are both editors first and kwami is not only an admin second but one who actually not only broke 3RR but also misused the page protection, I would support that action. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 18:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ...and I would not be against it either. Should have know better myself.  Clearly, I screwed up.  I would request a short block, of course, but I have no control over that...or could we say block use for time served and have the mark on our records and move on? - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 18:17, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Blocking is fine for the 3RR but doesn't address the blatant misuse of admin tools.--Cube lurker (talk) 18:18, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I've unprotected the article. You both know WP:3RR, so any further edit warring will result in a block. No need for one now as it wouldn't be preventative. Please discuss on the talk page or elsewhere to come to a content resolution. &mdash; Scientizzle 18:21, 27 April 2010 (UTC) Er. I thought I was unprotecting, but musta beat me to it. &mdash; Scientizzle 18:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * x2 I'm failing to see how this could be interpreted as vandalism. Jauerbackdude?/dude. 18:22, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * (multiple e/c) Actually, I've unprotected, as it was clearly inappropriate. I don't see a point to blocking for 3RR if they both stop (preventative not... you know).  However, Kwami's inappropriate protection, and calling it vandalism, and refusal to discuss, is problematic. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:22, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * As Cube lurker notes, there are two issues here, and the edit warring is the lesser of the two. Unfortunately, we don't really have any options to address the second issue, except to verbally chastise kawmi and remind him about what vandalism is not, as well as the clear injunction about protecting your preferred version. Kwami, I don't know why you have done this, but do realize that although it is difficult to de-admin, it is not impossible, and if you make a habit of abusing your buttons it will become an inevitability. Puppy has spoken, puppy is done. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 18:25, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * (many ec's causing me to edit my initial point). I conquer with Floquenbeam on this.  The unprotection is appropriate, and blocking would be pointless as neither user is engaged in the edit war.  I also concur that the central problem here is a) Kwami's intentional mischaracterization of neutralhomer's edits as "vandalism" and b) his use of that characterization to protect his preferred version of the article and thus to "win" the edit war.  This needs to be stopped immediately.  Such behavior is unacceptable for an admin, and needs to be addressed.  The best would be a statement from Kwami where he admits to his wrongdoing and assures us how it won't happen.  Barring that, there should be something else done to ensure it does not happen again.  -- Jayron  32  18:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What did we conquer? Is there any looting and pillaging involved? :) --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:38, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * *Puts on my Viking helmet to join in* - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 18:40, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going to start "conquering" instead of "concurring" too! Its a much more interesting typo than my usual... are you suggesting an Rfc if Kwami fails to respond, Jayron? KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 18:42, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Just a note, I understand the "don't edit war" advice and will not on the page. I have left the pronunciation section in the hands of a gentleman I have been working on the page with.  I left it up to his best judgement with my opinion (which of course could be ignored).  I do feel that Kwamikagami should be properly admonished for his misuse of tools and such, but I don't have control over that and will feel fine with whatever is done. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 18:30, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

[edit conflict] I agree I should have simply referred this to a third party. My excuse is that I am cleaning up over 10,000 articles which use the English IPA templates, and it's difficult to keep track of which ones get subsequently reverted by someone who doesn't know what they're doing. Of course, I can always run AWB again to catch them, but each pre-parse run takes several hours.
 * Interestingly (to me), from looking at the edit summaries and Kwami's talk page, it appears part of the problem was they may have been talking past each other; I'm not convinced either one understands even now why the other thinks he is wrong. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:38, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I will honestly say, I don't understand the pronunciation templates, it confuses me. I pulled the pronunciation I used from another site.  I can find it again, so you all can see my source is need be. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 18:41, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That's all the edit war, though, whcih we are not concerned with here. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 18:43, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, no problem. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 18:44, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

NH did not blank because he thought the pronunciation was inappropriate. He blanked as a WP:point because I corrected him. It was, after all, the same pronunciation! I certainly did not refuse to explain; I pointed out how the template he was using was incorrect, as he would have seen if he'd bothered to look at it. I asked him to take it to ANI after a while because he didsn't seem to understand the difference between spelling and pronunciation, and I didn't have the patience to teach it to him. It would be different if he were a newbie, but he's not.

As for the blanking not being vandalism, that would depend on whether he was acting in good faith. I'm not one to take WP:pointy edits as being in good faith, but in any case I said it was close to vandalism, or debatable whether it was vandalism. I didn't simply call him a vandal. — kwami (talk) 18:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And what about your action of reverting the article to your version and then locking it? What is the rationale for that? Silver  seren C 18:51, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * [edit conflict] I reverted blanking and locked it. I didn't lock just for my preferred format: If it's worth including, then it's worth including, and pointy blanking goes beyond disputes over correct formatting. I also said I would unblock as soon as NH agreed to stop blanking the pronunciation, and didn't try to make that conditional on the formatting. And this wasn't a dispute over content: I agree with NH's pronunciation; his format was simply unsupported by the link he provided. For the majority of the world who have never seen that format before, the link would give them a pronunciation that NH would agree is incorrect: "stay-vəns see-tay", with tone. — kwami (talk) 19:08, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter that you think you're right. Using those tools in a content dispute is expressly forbidden.  Cut and dry no excuses no defense.  If you can't see that this problem has only one solution.--Cube lurker (talk) 19:16, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, no. None of that will wash, kwami. You're excusing your poor behavior. There is no way - none - that NH's edits could be considered vandalism. You edit warred, then you protected, and now you're arguing and trying to excuse and defend your actions. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 19:00, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I protected against blanking, and said I'd unprotect as soon as that stopped. That was regardless of the actual dispute. — kwami (talk) 19:08, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It wasn't "blanking". This is blanking. This is partia blanking. Please examine the difference. It was an edit war, and you restored what you wanted, and protected. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 19:18, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * To explain my actions on the blanking. I removed it as neither him nor I were going to be happy with what the other one had, so removing it from the page seemed to be the best option.  That way it was out of sight, out of mind, no worries.  I did not do it to vandalize the page.  Why would I vandalize a page, I am working so hard on (check the history).  That is just silly. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 18:53, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

There was no vandalism. There was an edit war. Moreover, IMO protecting the page because a single account made 4 edits is wrong. It's interesting that I can't find any discussion in article's talk page or editor's talk page on the subject. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:09, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I didn't protect because of 3RR. I didn't protect because of the format dispute. I protected because of pointy blanking, which I took to be in bad faith (and blanking in bad faith is vandalism). I also said I'd unprotect if NH agreed to stop blanking. That wasn't conditional on agreeing with me on anything else. — kwami (talk)


 * Vandalism has a specific definition as far as Wikipedia goes, and I'm not seeing it here. I'm not entirely convinced that the template removal wasn't pointy, but that's still not vandalism -- and Kwami shouldn't have thought he was objective enough to decide on protection for an article that was the subject of his own content dispute. He seems to have admitted that much, albeit with the caveat that he had a valid excuse; too much on his plate or whatnot, which I have to roll my eyes at. Nevertheless I'm satisfied that this incident caused him enough trouble that he won't let it happen again any time soon. Equazcion  ( talk ) 19:17, 27 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'll refer it elsewhere next time. I just hate bugging other editors with petty problems that I don't have the patience for. — kwami (talk) 19:22, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not satisfied; kwami is still arguing that it was vandalism - page blanking, pointy, vandalism - and I have seen absolutely no evidence that any of these things took place at all - and neither has any other commenter here. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 19:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Regardless, this isn't the place to split hairs over the issue. We aren't a moot court, we aren't here to decide intent or the mindframe of Kwamikagami.  The edit war has stopped, he's agreed to let other admins handle articles he is involved in.  Behaviorally speaking, those are the ONLY two results we can expect here.  There is nothing else for admins to do here.  We aren't going to drag him over the coals for a single incident.  If we begin to see a pattern of mischaracterizations and misuses of the term "vandalism" here, then we can revisit the issue.  A single isolated incident isn't worth beating the horse over.  I am marking this as resolved.  -- Jayron  32  19:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

I disagree, clearly. In my experience, if someone does not use the same standards as everyone else, there either are, or will be, other incidents. I see I am, sadly, correct. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 19:56, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrary break (User:Kwamikagami)

 * I know this is marked as resolved, and I hope I don't get trout-slapped, but this might be relevant. -- Mufka (u) (t) (c) 19:36, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You want a pattern? How about this, only going back 3 days. 6 month block to an IP with 5 edits and no more than a level 2 warning on the talk page? Highly excesive. No block notice. Note the contribution history on the article vandalized.--Cube lurker (talk) 19:40, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * OK. So it appears this isn't an isolated incident.  Looks like Kwami has some 'splainin' to do... -- Jayron  32  19:48, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Mufkas's diff above in particular worries me. I agree with un-resolving this.  Equazcion  ( talk ) 19:50, 27 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Mufkas' contribution to the discussion shows that it does appear to be a pattern, regardless of this IP blocking incident as well. Silver  seren C 19:56, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * With Mufka's diff, I was not an involved editor as I was today. Looking back several months, I'd only made minor edits to the article, and not on this topic. Here one editor made an appropriate edit (number of native speakers, which is what that cell in the infobox is for, plus 2ary speakers, with a long-discussed RS), and a second editor, who'd been engaged in low-level revert warring for days, deleted all but the high end of the estimates of 2ary speakers, and deleted the source for native speakers. That source had been extensively discussed on the talk page. Violated RS, blanking, and POV, and repeatedly insisted on it. While I agree that today's edit was a knee-jerk reaction on my part, I don't think that edit was problematic. And I don't recall any of the several other editors complaining.


 * As for the other one, I blocked a vandalism-only account who had blanked the page twice, changed "those syllables" to "male genetailia [sic]", and changed "copulate" to "cockulate". Are you kidding me? — kwami (talk) 20:16, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You blocked a dynamic IP without a block log for 6 months; see WP:Blocking IP addresses for further information on appropriate block lengths, &c. (Note: I've unblocked, as a more reasonable block length [imo] would have lapsed by now.) – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 20:19, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, if you don't know the difference between an account and a dynamic IP you need to resign the tools for the good of the project.--Cube lurker (talk) 20:21, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I might be inclined to agree, just on the fact that if you can't distinguish between them, you could cause a significant amount of damage by blocking an important dynamic IP and you'd never know you did. Silver  seren C 20:36, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I hadn't read that page before, so thanks for the link. I don't know how to tell the diff between a dynamic and static IP; if you could point out that article, I would appreciate it. Normally I don't block an IP for long if it has a history of constructive edits prior to (or interspersed with) the vandalism, but have blocked for longer (though never indefinitely) when there is no history of WP edits other than vandalism, and the vandal comes back over several days, suggesting (or so I thought) that it is not a dynamic IP. Of course, there's always the off chance that an IP that hasn't been used for WP since the project started will pick up next week or next month, but I figured the risk was minimal. I remember a guideline suggesting that we not block school IPs for more than one school year, so that's the time line I had in mind. I see that this link suggests only blocking for a few hours, but what do we do about the vandal who returns every few days, and has already stopped for the day, so would be unaffected by a block that short? — kwami (talk) 20:51, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I use a sliding scale for repeat offenders of about 31h, 72h, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, 1 year (I skip steps sometimes). – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 21:00, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * For dynamic IPs too? — kwami (talk) 21:31, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, yes, because even some dynamic IPs can be held for a very long time. But any hardcore vandal will likely reset their IP after getting the week or month level (let alone 31 hours). – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 21:34, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Regarding Mufka's dif, you state that you were "not an involved editor" Yet your actions exactly parallel today's, except you edit warred less before you abused the tools to preserve your desired version: You reverted twice and then protected your preferred version. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 20:44, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it's not at all parallel. Today I edited the page, got into an edit war, then protected when NH started blanking. That was a knee-jerk response, and I agree inappropriate. At Esperanto I did not edit the page. It wasn't my baby. I was restoring and then protecting an edit that had been made by another editor in accordance with the consensus on the talk page. How can you compare the two? — kwami (talk) 20:55, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wait, so you're implying that while the Esperanto article was not, the article this ANI discussion is about IS your baby? Silver  seren C 21:02, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I don't mean that I feel I own the article at all. People have been objecting that I revert "to my version" and then protect. The implication is that I feel I "own" the article, that it is my baby. KC even said that these two cases were "exactly parallel". So I pointed out that in this case it wasn't my edit that I reverted to, so even assuming the KC's implication of ownership for the former article, how could I feel ownership about the latter? — kwami (talk) 21:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Its exactly the same - you reverted edits which were no vandalism, they were content disputes, then you protected the version you'd reverted to. That's exactly the same, and its exactly not allowable. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 21:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wait, you're saying that it's irrelevant whether I revert to my own version, or whether I had edited the article? I thought that was the principal objection to my edit this morning? — kwami (talk) 21:30, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

On Serbo-Croatian language, kwami reverted to his version (without edit summary) and then protected the page claiming vandalism. No 3RR here as above, but these were good-faith edits by an IP, not POV or vandalism as described in the edit summary. <span style="color:#C60;font-family:Georgia, serif;font-size:90%;font-weight:bold;">Brad 20:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ...and more of it comes out of the woodwork... Silver  seren C 21:02, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * SC is one of several Balkans language articles with emotions running high. There are multiple editors of long standing debating various issues, some practically accusing others of cultural genocide, and anonymous IPs jumping making irresponsible edits do not help things. Many of these articles are semi-protected for this very reason. My semi-protection, which didn't affect any of the parties in the debate, was as much preventive as anything. The edit summary I gave was my motivation, not a description of any particular edit: "anon. IPs have been partisan POV or even vandals". Note "IPs", plural. "Have been", thus on-going. Left out was that I'm thinking of a cluster of articles that are similarly difficult. Note also that there was no discussion on the talk page, the IP never said they needed to edit, never objected to the protection, etc. Not that the immediately preceding IP had been a vandal, but even if it had, I'm generally willing to unprotect/unblock even unambiguous vandals if they say they want to edit constructively. (Also, when NH objected to the protection this morning, which I now agree was hasty and inappropriate on my part, I said I'd be happy to unprotect if he'd agree to stop blanking. I didn't demand that he agree with me or change his opinion.) — kwami (talk) 21:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The edits you reverted were not vandalism, and there had been no instances of vandalism since 10 days earlier. Blocking IPs from editing the page accomplished nothing but protecting your version of the page. You did not explain this to the IP in question, nor did you explain your actions on the talk page. <span style="color:#C60;font-family:Georgia, serif;font-size:90%;font-weight:bold;">Brad 21:22, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * True enough. I should at least have been more considerate of the IP. We had enough of the kind of blindly nationalistic editor you see next that I was hoping to avoid the problem running amok with IPs as well, but I should have asked s.o. else to do it. — kwami (talk) 17:32, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * On the article South Slavic languages he blatantly reverted to his version (04:16, 24 April 2010). He deleted almost 2,000 bytes of basic linguist info on that matter. It seems that what goes beyond his linguist knowledge, doesn't exist for him. But worse part is:  (04:20, 24 April 2010), he threatened me with the block and etiquetted my (+2,000 bytes) contribution as "vandalism". I've warned him on that  (02:57, 25 April 2010), but his answer was  " If you make problematic edits I will revert them, even if they include some good material. I'm not going to re-write them for you to save the good stuff: That's your job."(??!!) My reaction was . Kubura (talk) 05:19, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Mufka's diff is still a problem, I think. Firstly, as with today's incident, kwami protected an article to prevent a single editor from contributing to it. We generally block the user in that case, not protect the article. Secondly (again in Mufka's diff) it wasn't vandalism but a content dispute -- and in that case, admins should not make any reverts prior to protecting. Equazcion  ( talk ) 20:59, 27 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed; he reverts non-vandalistic edits then protects. This is the fist time I have ever seen an admin argue against protecting the The Wrong Version. This is extremely troubling. We now have three instances of this, and an admin arguing he has done nothing wrong. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 21:07, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I do not deny it. My edit this morning was wrong. I don't dispute that. If there is consensus that my other edits are also wrong, tell me which and why and I will modify my behaviour. — kwami (talk) 21:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think we've just done that. Make sure you understand what vandalism really is -- WP:VANDAL. If it's not vandalism, it generally means a content dispute, and when protecting for that reason, you should never revert first. I don't know how to state this any more plainly, and am a bit unnerved that you're still asking. Equazcion  ( talk ) 21:20, 27 Apr 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, there was also the case of blocking a vandal because of dynamic IP concerns. That's completely unrelated, which is why I wanted to clarify that just saying "don't do it again" might leave me uncertain as to what I shouldn't do again. — kwami (talk) 21:40, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Regarding this morning's incident - you said "I'd be happy to unprotect if he'd agree to stop blanking." It wasn't "blanking". This is blanking. This is partial blanking. Please examine the difference. It was an edit war, and you restored what you wanted, and protected. This is the core and the crux, and I'm not sure you quite see it yet. You're justifying that edit, as well as the Croation one, by claiming in the first instance vandalism, and in the second restoring consensus. I recently was editing an article where the consensus was 15:1, but I did n't violate 3RR nor did I protect. That would have been misuse of the tools. When it is a content dispute, you cannot justify protecting your version; that is completely unacceptable. And these examples are content disputes. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 21:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I get it that I should not have reverted to my preferred format before protecting. I could've reverted to his, then asked s.o. else to take care of it. That's my bad. But as for "blanking", he blanked the section under dispute. Should I call that "deletion" if under a certain %age of the article? I think you can follow the situation whichever word I use. — kwami (talk) 21:40, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't see any blanking. I saw him removing the pronunciation bit, but that was the bit that was disputed. It wasn't like he'd blanked a section, which is what blanking is. If you have something, else you're calling blanking, please link to the dif - thanks. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 21:46, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Should this story become the subject of an ArbCom? The 6 months block to a dynamic IP that was not sufficiently warned and with a clean block log is serious stuff. -- Magioladitis (talk) 00:28, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * For heaven's sake, no. He didn't understand dynamic IPs, and while troubling, he has said he plans to give himself a refresher course, and has been made aware of the concerns. If he continues making these kinds of errors, the next step is to talk to him again, then Rfc. ArbCom is not indicated at this time. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 00:50, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Is this a symptom?
I don't think it's a widespread problem, but every once in a while a question arises in relation to an "old guard" admin (RFA before about 2006). In this case the thing that made me think of it was kwami's response above where he said "I hadn't read that page before" in reference to WP:Blocking IP addresses. Granted the page was created after his RFA, but those types of pages are critical to consistent adminship across the board. I don't have anything to propose in regards to that but I wonder if it's worth discussing. -- Mufka (u) (t) (c) 21:26, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * [ec] Well, perhaps I could take a refresher course in admin policy. The principal objection at my RFA was that I had very few non-mainspace edits. And for a long time I did very little admin work. Mainly the tools just made my editing easier, and what admin stuff I did was mostly moving pages, using AWB, merging page histories, deleting orphaned stubs, etc. (I think you can get the tools w/o being an admin these days, but couldn't back then.) More recently I've gotten involved with pages that have more nationalism problems and serious POV disputes, and sometimes I've gotten rather short-tempered because of it. And here I thought that recently my temper was improving! — kwami (talk) 21:50, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps just review WP:INVOLVED and, in future if you feel administrative action is required on an article with which you are involved, report to WP:RFPP or WP:ANI rather than taking action yourself. – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 22:07, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. I've seen a very few similar instances myself - pls don't ask senile me to remember - and one of a post-2006 admin being completely out of step with what was acceptable as generally understood by most admins (he unblocked himself.) We don't have refresher courses; we dont' have tests. The Rfa process has become much more focused on asking policy questions, but there is not a lot of order to it, and this could be left out of 99% of all Rfa's so far as I know. The wiki way is probably to ignore it unless there is an actual incident, or problem, then address that specific with that individual admin, as we are doing here. I don't see that adding bureaucracy would help in any way. KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 21:42, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone going for an RfA right now would have to be familiar with all of these policies, along with a pile of other things that haven't been mentioned here. I'm a little concerned about the lack of knowledge of protocol here. For one, anyone going for an RfA right now with your lack of edit summaries would fail. Furthermore, anyone using rollback in a content dispute as often as you have would fail as well. Interestingly, you claimed in your RfA that you wanted the tools in order to revert POV, which nowadays would fail even WP:RFR (rollback is only for vandalism). Curiously, no one said anything about that in your RfA, and it's obvious no-one has mentioned it since. I think spending some time in New Admin School or even Admin coaching would be terrific idea. <span style="color:#C60;font-family:Georgia, serif;font-size:90%;font-weight:bold;">Brad 22:18, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the NAS link. I haven't read it all yet, but I have it on browser startup so that I'll get through it bit by bit. — kwami (talk) 17:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Responding to Mufka's point, & admitting that I'm clearly a pre-2006 Admin, I will admit that keeping up with policy changes is becoming increasingly more difficult. First, new policies & interpretations are created with a lack of publicity; sometimes a new policy or procedure is only discovered when someone stumbles over it. Second, almost every stated policy is little more than a description of what it should be, not what it is. I won't list which ones these are -- no need to indulge in WikiDrama -- but there's enough chaff there to deter anyone from reading systematically in a self-motivated attempt to keep up. As a result, any veteran Admin simply goes by the spirit of what Wikipedia are -- heavily relying on WP:IAR -- & common sense, which is dangerous for all. A guide to what is important & current in Wikipedia policy would be a great help to everyone. (Although that undoubtedly will lead to another round of nasty WikiLawyering. I just don't know if that can be avoided.) -- llywrch (talk) 22:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * To run with Llywrch's idea, I think a place where new policies and interpretations can be listed for all to see (as they are created) would be useful for not just admins but for regular ol' editors as well. The biggies we all know, but some of the lesser ones and the new ones would be good to have as they come out.  Maybe a list by date and a list by topic, so it is easy to search.  WP:POLICYLIST anyone? - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 22:31, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I was just reading this page out of interest but the comment that kwami should resign the tools for the good of the project feels more than hypocritical. Ok, so maybe kwami was a little quick in protecting; point it out and let it rest. The good of the project, yeah, where IS that going these days when someone who spends many a happy our editing and policing pages gets such a roasting as opposed to someone who thought it appropriate to just delete something they didn't like. If you have the good of the project at heart, step back and think about where this explosion of rules and at times blind application of them is going to take Wikipedia... Over and out. Akerbeltz (talk) 22:59, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * What the hell is with calling me a hypocrite. First of all do you even know the definition? For the good of the project means that we should value competence over social standing. We're supposed to be an encyclopedia not a half-assed reality show. When an admin clearly doesn't understand the basic consequences of his tool use such as the difference between blocking a dynamic IP and a VOA account that person is a danger to the projects goals. The tools are here to serve the project, not as a status symbol. Think things out before you lob the next attack my way.--Cube lurker (talk) 00:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The longer one edits around here, the less important knowledge of policy intricacies becomes, I think. The wording of policy (especially fast-changing policy) just reflects whoever is winning the policy-page edit war that particular day, so it's more important to understand the policy's spirit, which changes much more slowly.  The "policy is descriptive not prescriptive" principle means that the wording is a lagging indicator anyway.  The main approach I'd suggest is: 1) accept that any admin action you're contemplating doing might be a mistake; and 2) don't worry too much about avoiding every mistake, but try to think ahead to the consequences of mistakes, and pick actions that can undone with minimal drama if it turns out they're wrong.  If you're working in an area that does need detailed policy knowledge, then ask for assistance or coaching from another admin working in that area, join the relevant wikiproject, etc, and get more familiar with the relevant issues (some of which won't be written down).  The idea of having some kind of "policy update RSS feed" that all admins are supposed to watch constantly is just nightmarish.   Seek instead to live by WP:CLUE. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 02:27, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

I didn't call you a hypocrite, I said the statement was hypocritical. And funnily enough, your response beautifully illustrates my point. The good of the project - unless I've been on the wrong planet all this time - is to build an encyclopedia of human knowledge base (ideally) on sound sources in the spirit of cooperation. Nowhere do I recall any founding statement that calls primarily for the strict adherence to rules and regulations in the abandonment of common sense. Yes, the tools are there to serve the project. And yes, kwami probably did protect a bit earlier than the rules called for. But taking the wider view and bearing in mind the good of the project, you guys are blowing a minor point of administration out of all proportion, ignoring years of diligent work in adding to wikipedia and carrying out admin work that more than once has kept other diligent editors from quitting the project in frustration. If you want to prevent Wikipedia from becomong a (quote) "half-assed reality show" then you should spend more time chasing vandals and crusading POV pushers, rather than filling talk pages over an issue that should take less than 5 lines to be dealt with. Akerbeltz (talk) 00:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I feel more pity towards you than anger.--Cube lurker (talk) 00:47, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Kwamikagami still doesn't understand
After User:Taivo posted this comment on Kwamikagami's talk page (which really didn't help things), Kwamikagami responded with this, which says in part that "I never thought it would be because of s.o. who doesn't literally doesn't know the difference between spelling and pronunciation." This clearly shows that Kwamikagami feels he has done nothing wrong (regardless of the back-peddling he has done here on this thread) and feels that I am still wrong and he is still right. This kind of attitude of an admin who has been shown with a pattern of abusing tools is not needed. I regret to ask this, but should his adminship be pulled over this lack of "getting it". - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer •  Talk  • 22:58, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Now you sound like you have an axe to grind. I've said several times that the page protection was "inappropriate", "hasty", and a "knee-jerk response", and that in the future I should pass on such issues to s.o. else. That isn't negated by my expression of surprise at being hauled in here over protecting a pronunciation key by someone who's admitted he doesn't know what he's talking about, rather than because I lost my cool and blocked some nationalist idiot screaming that a change in non-NPOV wording was cultural genocide. I once moved a name from one line in a list to another, where I though it fit better, and was accused of erasing a thousand years of history. That's the kind of thing I figured would eventually land me in trouble, as it has so many others. — kwami (talk) 00:25, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Do I have an axe to grind? No.  Am I a little pissed at my edits being considered vandalism?  Yes.  But saying someone "doesn't literally doesn't know the difference between spelling and pronunciation" is just poking one with a stick as it can be taken in many ways.  What you should have done was thanked User:Taivo for his views and moved on with nothing more than a "thank you".  No comment, no nothing.  Being in an ANI discussion about your behavior makes EVERYTHING you do, will do, and have done be put under a microscope and combed over with a fine tooth comb.  Trust me, I know.  But I also know when not to wave a red cloth in front of a bull....and your comment was essentially doing that (or poking one with a stick, whichever you would like to use). - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #900;padding:1px;"> NeutralHomer  •  Talk  • 01:25, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You're right. I was insulting when I had no need to be. Sorry. — kwami (talk) 17:38, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No. Why not actually give Kwami chance to adjust his use of admin tools in response to the discussion above, rather than pre-emptively second-guessing his future actions based on your interpretation of one talkpage comment?
 * An admin able to convert constructive suggestion into positive change is valuable enough not to discard on a blunt prediction of future motives. I am sure that even the slightest mistake in the near-future will not escape your watchful gaze, but let him be judged on his actual deeds and not mere supposition. Knepflerle (talk) 23:55, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * User:Neutralhomer doesn't understand phonetics and didn't understand what User:Kwamikagami was doing. Kwami didn't understand that NeutralHomer didn't understand.  And so it went.  Kwami put on the admin hat too fast in this case.  He has repeatedly said that he understands his mistake and will be more careful in the future.  I agree with User:Akerbeltz:  "Move on, people, nothing more to see here".  Of course, if the game of Wikipedia is more interesting to you than the encyclopedia, then by all means let the wikilawyering continue.  (Taivo (talk) 05:03, 28 April 2010 (UTC))
 * This would be true if this incident was the only one. This discussion revelaed that they are misunderstandings in at least 5 areas: what is vandalism, what is the 3RR rule about, what is page blanking, when we protect pages, when we block. -- Magioladitis (talk) 09:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Reality check? You're running a free encyclopedia, not MI5 so what's with the court marshall. Communicate your rules better to admins and move one. Akerbeltz (talk) 10:34, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * So I see two types of admins right now.
 * The admin who gets down into the trenches and deals aggressively with vandals, POV-pushers, and rabid nationalists in the field which s/he knows best. They don't spend all their time reading the rapidly changing subtle policy pages.  They're the practical ones who use their knowledge and common sense to make Wikipedia a better encyclopedia.  Sometimes they make mistakes.  Ted Williams had a .400 batting average--that means he failed six times out of ten, but he is still considered the greatest batter of all time.
 * The admin who spends his or her time eating other admins and treats Wikipedia like a game--or worse, a courtroom. These admins are experts on the constantly changing rulebook for their little MMORPG here, and get great pleasure in prosecuting any variation.
 * Give me the first kind of admin any day of the week. Give them the tools and let them use their brains to sort out difficult situations.  I'll take Kwami's common sense, intelligence, and subject matter expertise any day of the week over the wikilawyering admins who may know every tiny detail of "policy", but who won't get down in the mud to deal with an editor who is pushing a fringe or rabidly nationalistic POV.  How many vandals have gone on a rampage while you've been conducting this witch hunt against a knowledgeable admin who made one mistake in judgment?  (Taivo (talk) 13:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC))
 * A single account vandalises a page or we think it does. We don't protect the page, we target the account. Common logic.
 * An anonymous IP vandalises a page or we think it does. The IP has a clean block log. We don't block it forever, more than 1 person may be using it. Common logic.
 * Someone removes a sentence from an article. This is not "blanking". If this is somewhere in Wikipedia described as blanking then the description is wrong! Hm... second thought: tenths of people contribute in Wikipolicy, it's impossible that the majority described this as "blanking". Common logic.
 * I fail to see where wikilawyering comes into this. Anyway, I think I made my point. -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:47, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps as a start Kwaimi could identify and correct the two improper IP blocks still standing.--Cube lurker (talk) 13:50, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure, I unblocked mr. "really dont give a fuck, its a shithole system", and the IP for supriya, who's bragged that no-one can stop her evading her ban. — kwami (talk) 17:26, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you understand that length may or may not have been the issue? Do you understand what else was wrong with those?  Please note I said correct, not unblock.--Cube lurker (talk) 17:35, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I really didn't want to get involved, but the issues here aren't really about staying on top of ever-changing policies (though as an admin you should probably be somewhat knowledgeable on basic policies); it's about using common sense and communicating better. If you're involved in a content dispute, you shouldn't be using your administrative tools to your advantage; that's not what they're for.  There is a clear difference between vandalism and disagreeing over content.  If someone is going to claim vandalism and blanking, they need to make sure they know what the definitions of them are, even more so if they are an admin.  The definitions aren't hard to find.  I think what happened to open this ANI in the first place was allowing an emotional response (being irritated with another editor) to dictate use of admin tools over logic and that seems to be a recurring problem.  That's not to say this admin is a horrible person or should be banned or anything, but some changes need to be made in how he uses admin tools in relatively cut-and-dry situations where the issue isn't so much a violation as it is a difference of opinion.  No amount of good deeds or good editing excuses misuse of admin tools.  --JonRidinger (talk) 14:38, 28 April 2010 (UTC)