Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive646

Block of User:Viriditas
I would like to undo a week-long block of Viriditas, imposed by 23skidoo, but want to check consensus first. 23skidoo has been an admin since 2005, but not an active admin or editor recently. He arrived today at Talk:Juan Williams, his first edit since June, and reverted archiving that Viriditas had just completed. The archiving was apparently to remove personal attacks from the page. I don't know the rights and wrongs of it, but 23skidoo complained on Viriditas's page about his attitude, Viriditas objected to 23skidoo's arriving out of the blue to unarchive, and said he was meatpuppeting for other editors on the page. 23skidoo responded by blocking him for a week. See the exchange here.

It's so obvious to me that this is a bad block on so many levels that I was tempted to undo immediately, but we're not meant to do that, so I'm bringing it here. There have been objections to the block on User talk:Viriditas and User talk:23skidoo from Mastcell, SPhilbrick, Roux, Off2riorob, and myself. 23skidoo's response here. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 17:50, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Support unblock. I was considering doing this earlier, but wanted to see 23skidoo's response first. As this is now here, I think consensus is to overturn the block. / ƒETCH COMMS  /  17:57, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * unblock. something's wrong this week... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 17:58, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Unblock. I'm willing to AGF that there was a good reason for the block, but I can't see anything that would stand up to scrutiny. Gimmetoo (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Support unblock. Having read 23skidoo's response, this is not a legitimate block. --Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 18:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * On the fence: I encourage people to read 23skidoo's response on his talk page and not dismiss it as tl;dr. The point he is trying to make is certainly very valid. While I don't think the block was entirely proper, neither do I think that this archiving was proper. NW ( Talk ) 18:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Even if one assumes the archiving was improper, that's not the reason for the block given either in the blocklog or 23skidoo's response. Gimmetoo (talk) 18:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No, that I understand that. The claimed reason was a "a bullying aggressive tone that is counter-productive to civil discourse on Wikipedia." 23skidoo backed up that assertion with evidence, of which the archiving was just one part. Still not sure if a block was the proper way to handle it, but it was an option, and I am not convinced that it was out of order. NW ( Talk ) 18:20, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "Not out of order" to one editor is a pretty low hurdle. The question is whether the block was "in order", and most replies so far say this block was not. Gimmetoo (talk) 18:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * On the fence per NW. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:08, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Reduce to time served as per Jclemens' summary. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:25, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Weak Support - This block seems to have been a bad response to Viriditas' bad behavior. NickCT (talk) 18:09, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Unblock - clearly there are issues, an administrators that is basically inactive for one and a claim of involved in the dispute' Also support Administrator SlimVirgins not rushing to unblock out of process and attempting discussion and then bringing the issue here for discussion. Off2riorob (talk) 18:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with your second sentence. I also hope that no other administrator will rush to unblock and curtail this discussion. What has happened so far is setting a good precedent. NW ( Talk ) 18:22, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Support unblock, perhaps the archiving was improper, but this wasn't the reason given for the block -- the reason given indicates a highly improper block. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * But the "reason given" isn't the only explanation we have to work with. Block summaries should not overrule lengthy explanations. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Reduce to time served per NW and 23skidoo's response. Jclemens (talk) 18:16, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Unblock, note that block was improper in the unblock entry in the log. → ROUX   ₪  18:17, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Unblock, with note in block log per Roux. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:21, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Unblock. The tools were misused here and I can't support a revisionist attempt to make a bad block into a faux-good one.--Cube lurker (talk) 18:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Support roux; "time served" is not sufficient in this case. The block was inappropriate. Indeed, I think it could be argued that 23skidoo's response merit a block. Gimmetoo (talk) 18:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No, definitely not. While it's questionable whether 23skidoo should have imposed the block at that time, an uninvolved admin given the explanation here would likely have reached the same conclusion.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:34, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm uninvolved, and I did not reach the same conclusion given that explanation. Gimmetoo (talk) 18:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Unblock now, and note that it was an incorrect block in the log as suggested by Roux. Consensus seems pretty clear, this wasn't a good block and it should be undone sooner rather than later. GiftigerWunsch  [TALK]  18:31, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "Hell no" on "unblock now", discussion is underway and lively. Once it peters down a bit, an uninvolved admin can determine consensus. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * In the meantime, we're driving off an editor who shouldn't have been blocked in the first place. GiftigerWunsch  [TALK]  18:42, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * And how do we know that, when Viriditas hasn't edited their talk page since the block was imposed? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the arguments of almost a dozen uninvolved editors here are pretty compelling, but apparently you're willing to block any admin who considers that an indication of consensus. Giftiger<font color="#FF0000">Wunsch  <font face="Tahoma" color="#0060A0">[TALK]  18:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Support Unblock or Change of Block Length BUT AFTER an uninvolved admin or community consensus determines (a) if a block was appropriate and (b) if so, for how long (a day? a week?) - unless 23skidoo can provide sufficient rationale for why a block by an involved admin was appropriate. It would have been easy enough for 23skidoo to get an uninvolved admin to review and (if warranted) block to ensure no impression of impropriety existed. After that, possible review of 23skidoo's actions and if any repercussions for such are warranted. R OBERT M FROM LI  TALK/CNTRB 18:32, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree with roux. unblock plus note in block log. This was a hasty and unwarranted block.--RegentsPark (talk) 18:33, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Support unblock with message in unblock. Mathsci (talk) 18:38, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * *Strongly support block.

As one of the editors who was being treated roughly by Viriditas I wish to place on record my support for the actions of 23skidoo in placing a temporary block on an editor who was - to put it mildly - very intimidating in his approach to me and to other editors. 23skidoo noted some of the wording used by Viriditas in his explanation for why the block was imposed. There are often tensions when one is passionate about a topic one is editing. We are all accustomed to those. But as an editor who has a reputation for working to achieve consensus and who has been awarded Barnstars etc and complimented for my spirit of compromise, I was a little startled to read text like the following from Viriditas - directed towards me and to others: (All of these can be seen in recent edit summaries and notes left on various talk pages by Viriditas.)

'''"Anyone who continues to use Wikipedia to fight these battles will be taken to task".

"You either go with the sources or you don't edit."

"You either need to learn how to write biography articles on Wikipedia, or you need to stop writing. It's very simple."

"If you didn't already know this was wrong before you added it, then now you do, and I've set you right. Don't do it again."

I'm sure no one reading the above would feel comfortable being on the receiving end of such abrasive messages. I've been involved in edit wars very occasionally over the years and I'm not accustomed to such blunt and heavy-handed diktats being handed down from one editor to others. I support the block, as long as it is only for a few days to help him cool off. And I hope that when Viriditas returns in a few days time, he will try to be a little more sensitive to other editors. I contribute to many different articles on Wikipedia and enjoy being part of the community. I don't want to be too frightened to edit because an editor is so aggressive in his interactions with other editors that I am intimidated. Davidpatrick (talk) 18:34, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That all looks like sound advice to me; I'd suggest getting a thicker skin, taking the advice without jumping to complain about a user you disagree with, and learning about our blocking policy. <font face="Verdana" color="#900000">Giftiger<font color="#FF0000">Wunsch  <font face="Tahoma" color="#0060A0">[TALK]  18:38, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I've reviewed every discussion I could find and it looks to me like exactly the kind of "admin cowboy" block that should lead to a quick desysopping and for which Wiki should have a process in place for desysopping short of arbcom-- the very problems with abusive admins that have been oft-discussed of late. Wrong on many levels. I suggest that Davidpatrick may need a talking to as well. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:37, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * And what, may I ask, has Davidpatrick done wrong here? Kansan (talk) 19:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Disagreed with Sandy Georgia? Theresa Knott &#124; Sort that Knee! 20:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC) uncalled for on my part. See SandyGeorgias talk page. Theresa Knott &#124;  Sort that Knee! 20:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Unblock asap with note in block log that this was an improper block. The Admin should lose his bit, anyone who hasn't been using his tools and then suddenly swoops in with this sort of block is not an asset to the project. Dougweller (talk) 18:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Why? Don't we always say that it should be uninvolved admins who are dealing with things? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:50, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * As an uninvolved admin, my first impression is that this block is not in accordance with the blocking policy. As far as i can tell the block was for the "meatpuppet" accusation. I don't think such an accusation itself warrants a block but certainly not a block by the admin it was levelled at. If I'm missing something please explain. Theresa Knott &#124; Sort that Knee! 18:55, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I realize that the majority of people here are rushing (not sure why there is such a frantic rush) to determine the primary issue of the blocking. Am I being a fool to hope that someone might stop the rush for just 2 minutes and read the actual examples of abusive messages that were referred to by 23skidoo when he placed a warning ahead of imposing the block? If the abusive messages written by Viriditas were PART of the reason for the warning about and then imposing the block are part of this - then surely that is pertinent? Or does no one care about the underlying issue? And/or does no one care about Wiki-Bullying? Davidpatrick (talk) 19:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Unblocking right now would be a bad thing
For the record, folks, I'm strongly considering blocking anyone who undoes this block in the next little while. Consensus is in the process of being determined: waiting a couple of hours isn't going to make much of a difference in a 1-week block. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm strongly considering blocking anyone who blocks anyone for undoing the block.-- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 18:44, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd recommend striking that pretty quickly Brewcrewer, impersonating an admin isn't going to end well. <font face="Verdana" color="#900000">Giftiger<font color="#FF0000">Wunsch  <font face="Tahoma" color="#0060A0">[TALK]  18:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Erm... he was quite clearly joking; it was a completely reasonable comment; don't be so ridiculously abrasive. <font color="#A20846">╟─TreasuryTag► inspectorate ─╢ 19:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * He was joking. Peter <b style="color:#02b;">Symonds</b> ( talk ) 18:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * and then i'll block anyone who can't take a joke.-- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 18:49, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep your jokes on your own talk please and stop adding to the three-ring circus at ANI where important matters should be discussed without sideshows. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:50, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Joke or otherwise, making such a joke could very easily confuse newcomers, and impersonating an admin, directly or indirectly, shouldn't be tolerated. <font face="Verdana" color="#900000">Giftiger<font color="#FF0000">Wunsch  <font face="Tahoma" color="#0060A0">[TALK]  18:56, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

And for the benefit of Viriditas block log, I encourage the original blocking admin to undo it with a note that it was wrong and a link to the discussion here. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 18:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Frankly Sarek, doing so will simply be adding to your growing list of blocks which the community has had to call you here on. I would strongly advise against it. <font face="Verdana" color="#900000">Giftiger<font color="#FF0000">Wunsch  <font face="Tahoma" color="#0060A0">[TALK]  18:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

(too many edit conflicts)Yes let's all start blocking one another. It sounds like fun! Theresa Knott &#124; Sort that Knee! 18:50, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Too many edit conflicts caused by unnecessary childish comments like the above. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow Sandy..... You know, sometimes a little light humor helps defuse situations and reminds us that Wikipedia is not that important. NickCT (talk) 18:57, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Unless you happen to be the editor on the other end of an unfair block. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If wikipedia is that important for an editor on the other end of an unfair block, perhaps the unfair block will serve as a well needed wikiBreak. NickCT (talk) 19:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I am not so well-versed as the majority of people posting here about Wiki policy on blocking and I don't claim to be. All I hope is that those who are concerned for the civility of Wikipedia will take a little time - and not rush to judgement one way or the other. The thing that bothers me is just the tone of the comments dished out to me and other editors (I was not alone). See talk page Veriss (talk). I have a reasonably thick skin. But I love Wikipedia as a community. And I just think it's a terrible shame to have heavy-handed comments thrown at people with the air of "do it my way or leave Wikipedia". Perhaps I'm being too utopian in my thinking. But aren't we supposed to be trying to maintain a civil discourse on Wikipedia? Surely we don't want people to be intimidated or left feeling battered when editing in good faith? Davidpatrick (talk) 18:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see any real dissent here. Consensus of almost everyone who has posted on the subject was that this was a bad block. Unblocking seems to be the obvious next step. What there is not yet consensus for is what should be done about 23skiddoo. → ROUX   ₪  18:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Agree - there's enough of a consensus to justify an unblock. PhilKnight (talk) 18:55, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * On a related note though (to GW's post), we have AN/Is for a reason. We should follow their procedures or they become meaningless. Sarek's growing or not list of blocks (which...) should be irrelevant to us following procedure here - even if (as it seems) such a stern warning reminding us to do so is required.
 * Sufficient discussion time has not concluded
 * The user (at least last time I checked) did not request an unblock
 * There may be valid reasons (as brought up above) for the block or a portion thereof, and the validity of the block under same or similar grounds should be reviewed by the community and/or uninvolved admins to determine whether a reduction is warranted or a block removal.
 * And once a consensus is met, then perhaps we decide what actions or sanctions or whatever towards 23skidoo are warranted by the improper/proper/undecided block placed by him/her. R OBERT M FROM LI  TALK/CNTRB 18:56, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Robert, I completely disagree - we have WP:BURO and WP:IAR for good reason. PhilKnight (talk) 18:58, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Don't forget WP:DONOHARM (alright it's actually about BLPs but I think the concept of doing no harm applies here as well). Leaving a bad block in place while we waste further time discussing it is potentially doing a lot of harm. There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that this discussion is going to be closed as "good block", even if it turns out there are other grounds for which a block may be justified: the rationale given was completely against policy and the block should be undone immediately. <font face="Verdana" color="#900000">Giftiger<font color="#FF0000">Wunsch  <font face="Tahoma" color="#0060A0">[TALK]  19:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I realize that the majority of people here are rushing (not sure why there is such a frantic rush) to determine the primary issue of the blocking. Am I being a fool to hope that someone might stop the rush for just 2 minutes and read the actual examples of abusive messages that were referred to by 23skidoo when he placed a warning ahead of imposing the block? If the abusive messages written by Viriditas were PART of the reason for the warning about and then imposing the block are part of this - then surely that is pertinent? Or does no one care about the underlying issue? And/or does no one care about Wiki-Bullying? Davidpatrick (talk) 19:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Part of the underlying issue is that you brought a personal dispute from a user talkpage to an article talk page (see WP:BATTLEGROUND), and then 23skidoo restored them after they were removed. See this diff in which Viriditas pointed that out to 23skidoo.  You may note from the discussion here that very few editors opining have had such a strong reaction to the commentary as you did; it does take two to tango, and copying a talk page discussion to an article talk page, followed by an admin sweeping in to reinforce that action, helped feed the flames here.  I'm sorry if my comments above (about "talking to", which in no way meant any sort of warning, hence the wording "talk") appeared to conflate desysopping of an admin with anything related to you; that was not my intent.  My intent was to point out that you are working on a contentious BLP, sourcing in BLPs and enforcement of talk page commentary is stringent, and you had a hand in the blowup.  Dispute resolution processes are available on Wiki if you thought Viriditas was out of line-- bringing a battle onto the article talk page was not wise.  Had you taken your concerns to WP:WQA, this whole affair might have been avoided, and Viriditas wouldn't have an unjust block on his blocklog. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 00:45, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * (ec) I think the discussion here is healthy, but it's also important not to keep Viriditas languishing under this block. There's clear consensus to reverse it, and I can't see that changing. It would be better if 23skidoo would undo it himself, but he seems to have gone offline (something we're not meant to do after a contentious block), so I'll be undoing it shortly unless there are strong objections and good reasons not to. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 19:07, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * SV, have you by any chance checked the timestamp on that block you're criticizing him for going offline after? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, 23skidoo blocked Viriditas at 06:13 26 Oct, which was within 12 edits and two hours of his returning after a four-month break, the first time he had blocked anyone since January 2009. He went offline one minute later. He returned around 30 hours later for three minutes, responded with an explanation, then disappeared again. That compounds the inappropriateness of the block, in my view. Admins know they have to stick around after a contentious block to explain themselves and undo things in case they've made a mistake. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 20:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * FYI HJ Mitchell has unblocked. It seems SarekVulcan immediately swallowed his idea of blocking any unblocking admin... <font face="Verdana" color="#900000">Giftiger<font color="#FF0000">Wunsch  <font face="Tahoma" color="#0060A0">[TALK]  19:08, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I looked at the discussion, saw that there was a clear consensus that I was on the wrong side of, and decided not to block. There was a good hour of lively discussion there -- the result was much clearer than when my block was overturned while discussion was ongoing. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah... my apologies GW and DP PK. I was under the impression (from previous AN/Is where very similar situations occurred) that in such, the community having sufficient time to respond, and actually analyze the issues at hand trumped that. Interestingly, there have been admins who've gotten "screamed" at for not allowing the at least 24 hours, even when it was a snowball's chance...
 * And, I guess I'd expected an uninvolved admin to maybe... separate this into it's core components for proper comment. (1) Was the block warranted, (2) Should it be removed post haste, (3) Was 23skidoo's actions inappropriate, (4) is a block under different grounds warranted (thus simply requiring a change of rationale). But, that's just my opinion on what may have made the jumble above more readable. R OBERT M FROM LI  TALK/CNTRB 19:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, many of us do care about wikibullying-- particularly from admins. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 19:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I have, as GW says, unblocked Viriditas. There were several issues with the block, but I don't think it's appropriate to say that it was abusive. I believe the blocking admin acted in good faith, but the consensus here appears to be that he erred in making a block. I would recommend that this discussion be closed with 23Skidoo advised to seek comments at ANI or another appropriate venue for potentially questionable blocks in future and Viriditas advised to avoid appearing to inflame already heated situations and everybody else advised to go write an article, offer a review, block a vandal or something else that benefits the encyclopaedia. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?   19:17, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not certain I can agree with "good faith", since it seems more likely that the block was more of a "I'm too angry to consider the consequences" thing. But I do agree that claiming abuse is premature until we at least get a comment from Skidoo; it's very possible that Skidoo intended to come back after cooling off, apologise, and lift the block. Skidoo needs to cool off and then recognise that it was a bad block, not be blocked desysopped as suggested below: how do we justify that as a preventative measure without hearing Skidoo's response to this thread? <font face="Verdana" color="#900000">Giftiger<font color="#FF0000">Wunsch  <font face="Tahoma" color="#0060A0">[TALK]  19:24, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The block was made at 06:13, 26 October 2010, followed by a notice at 06:14. Skidoo's next edit was at 12:44, 27 October 2010. If Skidoo "intended to come back after cooling off, apologise, and lift the block", or "needs to cool off", is 30 hours enough time? Gimmetoo (talk) 19:37, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Never mind, I had overlooked the time of the block and assumed it was skidoo's last action before going offline, since that's what the discussion appeared to be suggesting. <font face="Verdana" color="#900000">Giftiger<font color="#FF0000">Wunsch  <font face="Tahoma" color="#0060A0">[TALK]  19:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Desysop 23skidoo
According to WP:ADMIN, the next step is Requests for comment/User conduct or Administrator review/23skidoo. It would be a welcome change to see it work for once, but what is the difference between RFC/U and Administrator review? Sandy Georgia (Talk) 19:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Jumping the gun. Let's wait to see what 23skidoo does and says when he returns. This proposal is too hasty. Theresa Knott &#124; Sort that Knee! 19:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree. Desysops can also only be enacted by Arbcom, as far as I'm aware. <font face="Verdana" color="#900000">Giftiger<font color="#FF0000">Wunsch  <font face="Tahoma" color="#0060A0">[TALK]  19:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree w/ Theresa/Giftiger - If 23skidoo is big enough to drop the block himself I think we can call this resolved. NickCT (talk) 19:19, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * @Giftiger wunsch, you're correct, unless 23skidoo is open to recall; and even if that's the case, I don't think anyone who was involved in the Herostratus fiasco wants to do that again, at least not for a very long time and with better systems in place. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 19:21, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * SandyGeorgia, IIRC, anyone can request an admin review, including for admins who have done nothing wrong - simply to get feedback from the community. It is in that case, very similar to an editor review. And of course, we know what RfC/U's are generally used for. Best, Rob R OBERT M FROM LI  TALK/CNTRB 19:20, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * @NickCT, he didn't drop the block himself. And we don't stop admin abuse by sweeping it under the rug.  If we were talking about an active admin, I might understand; the re-appearance to block is a concern.
 * @ Robert, I still don't know which venue is more useful for a case like this, but it's high time we all started using one of them. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 19:24, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * He's not online. It's not as if he refused to unblock. Theresa Knott &#124; Sort that Knee! 19:29, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

IF a venue was needed:
 * Assuming enough people believe 23's actions were abusive: RfC/U (Abuse of Admin Tools)
 * Assuming enough people simply wanted it reviewed by uninvolved editors: Admin Review

Sad thing is, very few are stopping to decide or determine if a block was warranted - and very few are willing to wait till 23 gets back to provide justification/apology/etc. Seems a bit too early to decide which when we havent even engaged in a discussion of the why/who/how with all parties involved. R OBERT M FROM LI TALK/CNTRB 19:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Before an RFC/U, the first port of call should be discussing it with the user. Since they have not yet been afforded a decent opportunity to reply, this is quite simply premature until there has been input from skidoo, and an RFC/U should not be started at this time. <font face="Verdana" color="#900000">Giftiger<font color="#FF0000">Wunsch  <font face="Tahoma" color="#0060A0">[TALK]  19:38, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Ummm GW, I believe I said that (directly above you, and at least once in the other conversation sections). ;-) Best, Rob R OBERT M FROM LI  TALK/CNTRB 19:42, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Not quite the same thing, I was specifically mentioning that a RFC/U can't be started without first trying (or preferrably exhausting) the option of discussing with the user first. I hope I didn't give the impression that this was in response to your comment, it's just a general, unindented bullet point on the section. <font face="Verdana" color="#900000">Giftiger<font color="#FF0000">Wunsch  <font face="Tahoma" color="#0060A0">[TALK]  19:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Let's wait. It's premature and irresponsible to move ahead until we here from the admin. Let's step back for a bit and wait. JodyBtalk 19:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

The key thing is for skidoo to acknowledge that he wasn't the one to do any blocking which was called for. Desysoping is not happening, and should not happen.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:27, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with everybody else who says that we ought to give skidoo a chance to respond. While there are some serious issues to be discussed, for sure, I'd also like to remind everybody that there are no angry mastodons here. Kansan (talk) 19:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * There should be a chance for the Admin to respond, however I also agree that this is a serious matter. Letting him respond doesn't mean we hat this, archive it, and hope everyone forgets.--Cube lurker (talk) 19:49, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Theresa Knott &#124; Sort that Knee! 19:54, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind seeing a short block tossed on SandyGeorgia for clear violation of WP:NPA. WP:ANI is not for frivolous attmepts to form a lynch mob, and he ought to know better given how long he's been around. Jtrainor (talk) 22:17, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Way over the top. Blocks are not toys. Theresa Knott &#124; Sort that Knee! 23:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps that's why he's not an admin. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 23:09, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Pot, kettle, black. Who's the one trying to form a lynch mob? StrPby (talk) 04:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Response from 23skidoo
So much heat generated and so many things written. Some of them fair questions and comments. Others heated and under-researched. C'est la vie. Nothing changes on Wikipedia... It would take too much time to respond to every comment offered. And I don't think it would advance the matter to do so. So I propose to be pragmatic and deal just with a few key points. 1) SlimVirgin wrote: It would be better if 23skidoo would undo it himself, but he seems to have gone offline (something we're not meant to do after a contentious block)
 * I placed this block at approx. 10pm MST on Monday October 25. It did not seem contentious then. And indeed 36 hours went by before it very suddenly became "contentious" among approximately 12-15 people. This thread started at 17:50 UTC on Wednesday October 27.  I am not aware of any mandatory obligation to stay on-line 24/7. Maybe some people can. But as much as I love Wikipedia - I also have an outside life. It helps one keep a perspective on matters.

2) Personally, I think it would have been prudent to take a little more time to consider the matter of the block and allow me the courtesy of being able to respond to some of the questions raised. But a majority of people on this page couldn't or didn't wish to wait an hour or so for me to be given an opportunity.  My happening to not be online during the exact hour that someone people felt this issue had to be resolved (on Tuesday morning I learned had I lost work, and my priority became seeking a new source of income) (edit: a typo created an unintended smiley in the original version of this post) denied me the opportunity of responding to misperceptions and misinterpretations before conclusions were made, judgements decreed, actions taken. 3) A decision was made by an administrator to over-rule my block. So be it. I'm not going to fight it. That matter is therefore over. 4) If the original material is read slowly, carefully and looked at - something hard to do in a frenzy of feeling "something must be done in the next hour", I think my action stands up. It was certainly a good faith action. And not done in anger or anything like it. 5) If you bother to look me up, I have been registered on Wikipedia since January 2003. I have contributed to over 12,000 unique pages. I have made over 36,800 edits to date. (And several thousand more prior to signing-up when I was still using third-party computers). I have been an administrator for 6 years. I am proud to say that I have helped in the finding of consensus in many an edit war. 6) I have already posted my reasons for imposing the block on the talk page of the editor in question. Despite a warning about not archiving/deleting article talk page text (some of which was very recent) and a clear reference to his wiki-bullying that was (and is) very apparent to anyone who actually bothers to look, his response was to accuse me of being a "meat puppet" without offering any evidence for what was a baseless charge.  This was consistent with his documented wiki-bullying of two separate editors within the preceding day. In the light of that I thought that he should be blocked to give him time to cool off. Should that block have been for a week?  That's a fair question.  Perhaps it should have been for a shorter period.  My hope was that the time off from editing would enable him to cool down.  And reflect on the tone of his writing to other editors. 7) I don't think it is the intent of people on this page to submit me to a "Star Chamber"-like inquisition for having acted to stop an editor making a groundless accusation against an administrator after a clear warning had been given to stop archiving recent talk page posts. And to give that editor a time to cool off after his well-documented wiki-bullying. In any event, I am assuming good faith on behalf of my fellow Administrators. I don't subscribe to the views of cynics about how Wikipedia conducts itself. 8) I'm sure that there are more important topics with which we can all busy ourselves - including the general improvement of Wikipedia to which we all give so much of our time and passion. And I for one would like to see a greater civility in all discourse on Wikipedia - among both editors and administrators.  Life is too short for the alternative... 23skidoo (talk) 20:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I find this an adequate explanation, which includes as much of an apology as we are likely to get. I am not one to care much about the form of words which accompanies the sentiment.  And I think we have wasted enough pixels on this.  Can we build an encyclopedia now?--Wehwalt (talk) 20:30, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * "It did not seem contentious then. And indeed 36 hours went by before it very suddenly became "contentious" among approximately 12-15 people. " - this is not entirely accurate. At least three people, self included, posted both to your tpage and that of Viriditas indicating problems with the block in a very short time after you blocked. → ROUX   ₪  20:32, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * (ec) You went offline one minute after blocking Viriditas, one of your first actions after a four-month break. You returned 30 hours later for three minutes, then left again after posting an explanation but without sticking around to sort things out. Admins should never act that way, unless they leave a note making it clear that anyone can unblock without consulting them. I'm concerned that you don't see how inappropriate this whole thing was, 23. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 20:33, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I was totally with you until got got to 8. 'Tis bad form to answer a charge of "you did something wrong" with "don't you have better things to be doing" Theresa Knott &#124; Sort that Knee! 20:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree about #8, but at the same time, it does not change the relevance (or lack thereof) of #1-7. So perhaps, as #8 isn't really a point about the situation, we continue by evaluating #1-7? Not suggesting you wouldn't already be doing that - but pointing it out before this becomes a debate on #8 and skips addressing the rest. Best, Rob R OBERT M FROM LI  TALK/CNTRB 20:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm good with his thinking here especially his attitude. He's not being hateful or spiteful and I think we understand that he did this with good intentions although the decision itself is questioned. JodyBtalk 21:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Two thoughts. i) is 23skidoo's rationale compatible with BLOCK? ii) if there's any lesson to be had from recent ANI debates on similar situations, which 23skidoo presumably missed, it's that blocks like this are better discussed by the community before being made. Rd232 talk 21:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I am old enough - in human years and in Wiki-years - to know that one cannot please everyone. So I am appreciative of responses like the ones by Wehwalt, JodyB and Rd232.  And while I am disappointed in some of the others - that is life. Theresa Knott feels that it is "bad form to answer a charge of "you did something wrong" with "don't you have better things to be doing"".  So do I.  Which is why I was so careful to express the sentiment that WE (not "you") have   better things to be doing.  We are all in this together.  Something that Wehwalt expresses perfectly for all of us: "I think we have wasted enough pixels on this. Can we build an encyclopedia now?"
 * So I am not planning on responding to each and every opinion expressed. I will say this though.  I commend HJ Mitchell for his gracious and calm way of dealing with things.  His thoughtful handling of the matter has just resulted in the expression of a positive attitude from the editor whose actions had triggered this issue in the first place. That is ultimately all I hoped to achieve.  It would have been ideal if that result could have been achieved earlier.  But better late than never.  I think we have all learned something from this. So thank you HJ Mitchell for leading us to that. 23skidoo (talk) 21:56, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, in any event, he shouldn't have been the one to determine a block. But the calls for his head, especially from people who have been here for a long time, and hold responsible positions here, outrage me.  I ask them, could you do your best work under a sword of Damocles, ready to come down on you at your first mistake?  Sorry if that sounds like a campaign speech, too much time at the Nixon library ... can we close this thread now?--Wehwalt (talk) 21:58, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * There is a discussion going on at WT:RFA about what's wrong there. Rather than looking at the what's happening at RFA for the reasons we should be looking at what's happening here. As far as I am concerned established (however that is defined) editors being blocked is a bigger deal than someone losing the admin bit, but for whatever reason the opposite holds true. You talk about the sword of damocles hanging over admin's heads, but at least they can still actually edit if desysopped. At the moment it seems that it is the regular editors who are in danger of being blocked under flimsy grounds by trigger happy admins, and they cannot do anything once blocked. Apologies for getting all meta. Quantpole (talk) 22:57, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm well if you desysop admins for making one mistake then you'd run out of admins pretty quickly as it is impossible to never ever make an error of judgement. It's certainly not true that you can't do anything while being blocked., that's what the unblock request template is for. Theresa Knott &#124; Sort that Knee! 23:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh joy. You can try and beg another admin to let you carry on improving the encyclopedia. If the admin bit was easier to lose then maybe it would be more willingly handed out. The situation with blocking established editors over the last couple of weeks has been farcical. Unless a block is cut and dried (e.g. 3RR, arbcom enforcement) then I don't think any admin should take it upon themselves to make a "judgement call" to block an editor. It should be by consensus instead. Quantpole (talk) 23:16, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh I completely agree. Established users who aren't under some kind of Arbcom restriction, or who haven't gone nuts should not be blocked except in exceptional circumstances. I just think that an admin who makes 1 error of judgement shouldn't be deadminned. They should be criticized but not lose their bit over one incident. A havbit of doing so is a different matter. Theresa Knott &#124; Sort that Knee! 23:24, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Time to put the pitchforks down please. Bad blocks happen, and as far as bad blocks go, this one appears to have been pretty middling: I've seen worse, I've seen less bad. As far as explanations for actions not supported by consensus go, this tends to be one of the better ones.  He called it like he saw it; community consensus differed. No good reason to take away the bit has been articulated. Jclemens (talk) 22:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Recapping what we've learned here:
 * Important BLP issues are lost in the shuffle at ANI; BLP doesn't really matter, does it? We've seen that at RFA lately, too.
 * An admin can return from a four-month absence, not answer why or how that occurred, make a really bad block and then not stick around to deal with the queries, but others will rally 'round and even attack editors who suggest something should be done about admin abuse.
 * Admins can bully and threaten other editors who challenge a bad block and ignorance of BLP.
 * Adminship is pretty much a "for life" job; when admins close rank, there is no offense to the lowly editor worthy of even an RFC/U.

Business as usual; admins can abuse others as long as they want, until/unless their offenses rise to the level warranting an arb case. Oh, and to the editor who suggested slapping a block on me for raising these issues: knock yourself out. Blocks are thrown around so wantonly these days that having a block log no longer means much. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 23:07, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * BLP was never discussed in this thread, there is not much rallying around several admins were highly critical of the block, no idea what you are talking about when you say admins bullied editors who challenged a bad block. When is this supposed to have happened? You 4th point might have some merit. Theresa Knott &#124;  Sort that Knee! 23:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Sandy, feel free to run for adminship. I'll gladly offer my support despite (or because of?) your attitude about it. I have some perspective on doing what I thought was the right thing, and getting completely ripped a new orifice for it at ANI, and I can think of a bunch of other administrators who have similarly run afoul of the community.  One mistake does not a desysop'ing make.  Should there be a trend, it would be a much more relevant discussion.  I've never gotten in trouble for a bad block, but mostly because I rarely block anyone with more than 10 edits. :-) Come sit on this side of the fence for a while, see how life is when you try an use the tools appropriately. Jclemens (talk) 23:38, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I do "sit on that side of the fence": I get regularly ripped every time I archive a FAC (and sometimes for promoting them, too). Your argument would make perfect sense ... were it not for the sudden re-appearance to block an editor.  Had he been around, doing routine admin business as usual, the whole thing might not smell quite so fishy.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 23:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Fishy? I thought you were usually on the receiving end of conspiracy theories, Sandy!--Wehwalt (talk) 02:01, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I mostly concurr with User:SandyGeorgia's summary of this episode. I wish I didn't.  --Rocksanddirt (talk) 03:11, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Lisbon lion67's use of wikipedia for advertising
I have tried unsuccessfully several times to get this user to stop advertising their facebook group in wikipedia.

As you may note from the several beginning diffs above, I have warned them that this addition violates WP:COI, WP:N\WP:WEB, and most of all, WP:UNDUE(WP:NPOV). As they have not taken the warnings to heart, and have decided to continue edit warring(if even doing it in a slow, drawn-out manner), I am taking what I term a spam/advertising incident here for more eyes.

They have been notified of this thread.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus <font color="Green">Contribs 21:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

If I might speak in my defence (Not sure if this is the place to do so, but I'll try anyway), I have now made revisions to the account, which I have tried to update, but the user Daedalus969 keeps watering down the article to a very vague account. I have removed anything that could be construed as advertising myself or my own page. I am simply trying to present an accurate account of this very notable campaign. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lisbon lion67 (talk • contribs) 21:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That's good and understandable, but we have talkpages for a reason. Instead of reverting and reverting what seems to be borderline-advertisement, ow about making your point on the article's talkpage and waiting for people to discuss it. Right now, I see you edit warring. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 21:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok, point taken, I wasn't really aware that it would come up like that. The way I saw it was that someone was trying to remove the specifics of the campaign. I understand now why that would happen. I have made changes to the article (saved on my computer) but I'm scared to try putting them on the article for fear I get reported and blocked from editing. What should I do? Put them on here for someone to review if they fit the guidelines?--Lisbon lion67 (talk) 21:57, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You could put them on the talkpage (only the bit you want changed) and ask for comments. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 22:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I have just done that. I have basically put on my revision to the discussion part. If no-one responds, how long do I wait before going ahead with the revision? --Lisbon lion67 (talk) 22:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Consensus doesn't work by failure to respond. Consensus is worked out amongst editors; meaning you wait until people respond, you don't give them a time limit to do so.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus <font color="Green">Contribs 22:18, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok, but if people review and have no problem with it, they may not leave a comment. It seems only if I put something that is contentious will people respond? Also, most people don't ever look at the discussion pages, they only look at the article. If there is nothing on the main article (as is currently) about the campaign, I'm not convinced people will review the discussion page to see what might be said? Would I be out of order to provide a revised contribution to the page, with an expanded discussion on the discussion page? --Lisbon lion67 (talk) 22:42, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * For someone rather new here, you're in no position to say that 'most people never look at the talk pages'. It is actually the direct opposite.  Most editors here use the talk pages, as that is how consensus is developed.  By discussing and not edit warring, as indeed, the latter usually ends with a block.
 * As to order, yes you would. Many editors would notice, as when a page is watch-listed, any changes to the corresponding talk page show up in the watchlist.  It isn't possible to only watch one part.
 * Lastly, just because people don't have a problem with it, that doesn't mean they wouldn't post. This isn't something that is going to happen right away.  You need to give it time, and you need to be patient about it.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus <font color="Green">Contribs 23:20, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, I am having to learn very quickly, we all had to learn at some point. I have now focused my attention to the talk page of the article. How do I know if and when I have consensus and can then proceed with revision to the main article? --Lisbon lion67 (talk) 06:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:CONSENSUS.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus <font color="Green">Contribs 07:47, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

User:128.189.129.43's repeated legal threats
was blocked for 24 hours for legal threats. The NLT policy was explained to them on their Talk page, and instead of retracting it, they have repeated their threat. Corvus cornix talk  05:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Talk page access removed, left a note refering them to Mike Godwin. -- Jayron  32  05:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Is that a good idea? Godwin resigned on October 22nd. Sven Manguard  <sub style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><b style="color:black;">Talk</b>  06:39, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump and Paul Siebert
I note with disappointment and regret that recent developments are leaving me with no other choice but to draw attention to the behavior of the above editors.

The facts of the case are as follows.

(1) On 5 October 2010, at 12:57 (UTC), I included in the article “Communist terrorism” the following passage with a quote by Marx (that apparently no one here had been able to trace since 1996 when it was mentioned by Edvard Radzinsky), under the section “Views of Marxist theoreticians and leaders”:

“In his article, “The Victory of the Counter-Revolution in Vienna”, ‘’Neue Rheinische Zeitung’’, No. 136, 7 Nov. 1848, Karl Marx wrote: “… there is only one means to shorten, simplify and concentrate the murderous death throes of the old society and the bloody birth pangs of the new, only one means – revolutionary terrorism.””

To which I provided the following references:

“Karl Marx – Friedrich Engels – Werke, Berlin: Dietz Verlag, Vol. V, 1959, pp. 455-7. http://www.mlwerke.de/me/me05/me_05_455.htm; for English translation see http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/11/06.htm”

On 6 October, at 03:54 (UTC), AndyTheGrump (in his own words) “amended Marx to full version.”

On 6 October, at 03:56 (UTC), AndyTheGrump posted the following statement on the talk page:

“I have amended the passage to give the quote in full. As it stood, the replacement of the initial part by ellipsis, arguably distorted the intended meaning.”

What I felt to be particularly discourteous and offensive was the fact that AndyTheGrump made absolutely no attempt to provide any evidence as to (a) what the intended meaning was, (b) why the quote as initially provided by me was “distorting” that meaning, and (c) why he thought it had been my intention to “distort” anything.

(2) On 6 October, at 10:53 (UTC), I included the following passage in the above-mentioned article, under the same section:

“Thus, in his The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade K. Kautsky (1918), Lenin wrote: “One cannot hide the fact that dictatorship presupposes and implies a “condition”, one so disagreeable to renegades [such as Kautsky], of revolutionary violence of one class against another … the “fundamental feature” of the concept of dictatorship of the proletariat is revolutionary violence.””

It was my intention at a later point, when I had the time to do so, to include an observation made by Robert Service in his work A History of Twentieth-Century Russia to the effect that Lenin in his The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade K. Kautsky advocated dictatorship and terror, as well as provide the following quote from Engels’ On Authority (which Lenin uses to support his own position on dictatorship and revolutionary violence, including state terror):

““To make things clearer, we will quote Marx and Engels to show what they said on the subject of dictatorship …: “… if the victorious party” (in a revolution) “does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionaries.””

It was (and still is) my sincere belief that the above quotes would have served to illustrate the views on the matter held by leading Marxists. Nor can there be any doubt that the quotes were relevant to the section entitled “Views of Marxist theoreticians and leaders.”

On 6 October, at 16:41 (UTC), Paul Siebert (in his own words) “Removed the quote form [sic] “The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade K. Kautsky””, adding that “Lenin does not use a word “terror” there at all.”

As I pointed out, Lenin must have used the word “terror” in The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade K. Kautsky at the very least in the Engels quote he is using in that work for the simple reason that (a) Engels’ original text (and English translation) has the word “terror” and (b) the English translation of The Proletarian Revolution and K. Kautsky itself has the word “terror”.

Paul Siebert unreasonably dismissed as “irrelevant” not only the Lenin quote I had included in the article and the Lenin quote I suggested on the talk page, but the entire The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade K. Kautsky.

On 6 October, at 16:51 (UTC), without adducing any evidence to substantiate his statements, Paul Siebert posted the following on the talk page:

“This work is hardly relevant to this article, because Lenin tells nothing about terror there. The word “terror” is mentioned twice in the foot notes. Lenin does not use it”.

Without providing any explanation as to what the footnotes were about, Paul Siebert insisted that the Russian original which he is able to read does not have the word “terror” (except, as already stated, “in the footnotes”), but that it has the word strakh which means “fear” and cannot mean “terror.”

Apart from the fact that his own interpretation or translation of the Russian text clearly constitutes original research, Paul Siebert continues to insist that the word strakh does not mean terror despite the fact that it does so:

(a) as is evident from the context;

(b) as is evident from the Oxford Russian Dictionary;

(c) as is evident from the English translation (online version available at www.marxists.org: );

and

(d) as any educated Russian speaker can confirm.

In addition, Lenin’s endorsement of terror has been confirmed by a number of respected historians, e.g., Robert Service in A History of Twentieth-Century Russia, p 108:

“Lenin, as he recovered from his wounds, wrote the booklet The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade K. Kautsky, in which he advocated dictatorship and terror”

and Richard Pipes in Communism: A Brief History, p. 39:

“He [Lenin] was quite prepared to resort to unlimited terror to destroy his opponents and cow the rest of the population.”

It is evident from this that the words “This work is hardly relevant to this article, because Lenin tells nothing about terror there” constitute a false statement.

In light of the evidence, Paul Siebert must have been, or subsequently become, aware of the fact that his statement is false.

On 8 October, at 17:06 (UTC), Paul Siebert posted the following statement on the talk page:

“it is worth noting that Bolsheviks didn’t start terror immediately after coming to power, which can be demonstrated by the fact that death penalty was completely abolished by them in 1917.”

The fact is that the Bolshevik government did not abolish the death penalty. It confirmed the abolition thereof enacted on 12 March 1917 by Kerensky’s Provisional government. Lenin returned to Russia in April 1917 and had expressly ordered his followers not to support the Kerensky government (Richard Pipes, The Unknown Lenin, 1996, p. 15). In addition, after coming to power, the Bolshevik government actually restored the death penalty in respect of certain crimes (e.g., Fanny Kaplan was executed on 4 September, 1918) and the CHEKA (the secret police established by Lenin in December 1917, i.e., immediately after Bolshevik takeover of power) was granted discretionary death-penalty powers by Lenin 1921 (Figes, 1998; Volkogonov, 1994). Lenin himself declared that it was “not possible to make a revolution without executions”; ordered the Red Terror campaign in September 1918 (Pipes, p. 56); and “the transformation of the war [WWI] from a conflict between nations to one between classes had been a central plank in the Bolshevik platform long before 1917” (Richard Pipes, Communism, 2001, p. 41).

It follows that it is legitimate to question Paul Siebert’s good faith.

It also follows that it is legitimate to ask (a) why Paul Siebert is making false statements and (b) why he is using such statements as a pretext to exclude relevant material from the article and/or discussion.

It must be noted that both my initial contributions and subsequent observations were in response to the call to help improve the article; were relevant to the section under discussion; and were clearly made in good faith.

By contrast, not only have Paul Siebert and AndyTheGrump displayed discourteous and offensive behavior from the very start, but they have chosen to resort to illegitimate and unacceptable tactics such as making unsubstantiated, false, and misleading statements in order to promote a pro-Marxist agenda, impose their own biased views on others, and preclude any balanced and objective discussion from taking place.

Paul Siebert and AndyTheGrump have repeatedly attempted to conceal or deny historical facts linking prominent Marxists with terrorism, such as, that Marx was known as “The Red Terror Doctor” on account of his endorsement of terror as a policy; that both Marx and his associate Engels made statements in support of terror/terrorism; that Marx wrote, “there is only one means to shorten, simplify and concentrate the murderous death throes of the old society and the bloody birth pangs of the new, only one means – revolutionary terrorism” (and that this quote in Kautsky’s Terrorism and Communism is annotated approvingly by Stalin); that Engels defines revolution in general “as rule imposed by means of the terror that the arms of the victorious party inspire in the reactionaries” (and that this definition is quoted with approval by Lenin in The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade K. Kautsky); that they were personally involved in armed insurrections (amounting to terrorism on account of their intention to establish a dictatorship based on terror); that they are discussed in scholarly publications on terrorism (e.g., Peter Calvert, “Theories of Terror in Urban Insurrections”, in the International Encyclopedia of Terrorism), etc.

In summation, it appears that the above-mentioned editors have effectively hijacked the article for their own purposes and are doing as they please with total impunity. Justus Maximus (talk) 15:18, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

PS I have requested the editor Snowded to advise me on the procedure for taking the matter to a higher authority but I received no reply. Being new to Wikipedia, I hope this is the correct place for lodging the above complaint. Justus Maximus (talk) 15:26, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't see the request Justus, best to place on my talk page as your article talk pages are very very long and its easy to miss things. If I had seen it I would have advised you against the above--<font color="#801818" face="Papyrus">Snowded  <font color="#708090" face="Baskerville">TALK  02:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * See this previous thread from ANI a week ago, where JM's editing was discussed. Mathsci (talk) 15:32, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have left a message about this request on the user talk pages of AndyTheGrump and Paul Siebert. Mathsci (talk) 15:41, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Dear Mathsci, thank you for informing me about this discussion. To make it more productive, can we ask Justus Maximus to do the following:
 * To try to separate a content dispute between them and a number of other editors from behavioural issues, because the former is not supposed to be a subject of the current thread.
 * To provide at least one example when they tried to seriously comment on the quotes from the reliable scholarly sources provided by me. This sources contradicted to the edits proposed by them, however, they rejected them under a pretext that these sources were "Marxist apologist".
 * To answer if they consider themselves a novice or experienced editor. This answer is important, because, if they believe they've already became an experienced editors, they are supposed to be responsible for violations of civility norms on WP pages.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:01, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Justus Maximus yet again chooses to label me as 'pro-terrorist'. I consider this a baseless gross personal attack, and ask him to withdraw this immediately. Should he not do so, I intend to seek Wikipedia arbitration over the issue.AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:18, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Note:AndyTheGrump has been blocked indefinitely for making legal threats. Access Denied  [FATAL ERROR] 16:30, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Please, correct me if I am wrong, but per WP:LEGAL the statement that someone makes "a fraudulent attempt to whitewash Marxist terrorism, in effect turning the discussion into an advertisement for terrorism;" is a perceived legal threat, and even much more serious one, because propaganda of terrorism, by contrast to libel, is a felony. In connection to that, taking into account that both Andy and Justus can be both considered as new editors, I request Access Denied to re-consider their decision.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:57, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not an admin; I was only commenting. Access Denied  [FATAL ERROR] 17:01, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I would not consider the comment you just quoted a legal threat. If they had said "I'm going to report you to law enforcement for spreading terrorist propaganda, maybe, but I see no real accusation of terrorist propaganda, let alone a threat of reporting it. <b style="color:#009900;">Ks0stm</b> (T•C•G) 17:05, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Repeated accusations in propaganda of terrorism are perceived legal threat per WP:LEGAL--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:33, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment Justus Maximus comment, "...they have chosen to resort to illegitimate and unacceptable tactics such as making unsubstantiated, false, and misleading statements in order to promote a pro-Marxist (pro-terrorist) agenda...." is totally unacceptable and he should be blocked for incivility. Otherwise, his comments are long and rambling, and he does not clearly point out what his dispute is other than a content dispute.  TFD (talk) 17:31, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, "strakh" means a "state of fear" or just fear in general, though for the purposes of Marx and Lenin, it is quite clear that they were speaking and advocating a form of terrorism. In this, the original poster is correct. I just wanted to point that out. Silver  seren C 17:49, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Though, Justus, what Paul meant from this is that your quote “One cannot hide the fact that dictatorship presupposes and implies a “condition”, one so disagreeable to renegades [such as Kautsky], of revolutionary violence of one class against another … the “fundamental feature” of the concept of dictatorship of the proletariat is revolutionary violence” doesn't even have the word terror in it anywhere. And Snowded asked for you to be involved in the talk here. Other than those two edits, you have not been involved in directly editing the article, though I notice there is an expansive amount of discussion on the talk page. Is there really anything that has to do with ANI here? Silver  seren C 18:06, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Could someone tell User:Paul Siebert that forum shopping is frowned upon, he has posted here on this thread the Justus is making perceived legal threats (I`m guessing in the hope of getting the guy blocked) But he has also posted the same thing Here thinking Access Denied was an admin and he posted the same again Here on Toddst1 talk page. This strikes me as someone shopping around looking for the right result and Paul ought to be told to quit it mark (talk) 18:19, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I would have to say that, from what i've seen from the talk page of the article in question, all three, Justus Maximus, Paul Siebert, and AndyTheGrump, have all been editing in a manner that expresses POV editing and/or possessiveness of the article. In terms of this and what Mark has shown above, I believe something definitely needs to be done in terms of these three users together, as they have all exibited editing that is frowned upon or not allowed on Wikipedia. Silver  seren C 18:26, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Re: "I`m guessing in the hope of getting the guy blocked". Had I wanted him to get blocked, I would be able to report him many times, because his behaviour is highly insulting and violates many WP rules. Regarding possessiveness, I admit that the talk page is a mess and that it is hard for a newcomer to follow the course of the discussion, however, before throwing accusations in "possessiveness", one has to read the discussion in full. I proposed to discuss a way to reconcile what Justus' and my sources say, whereas he simply ignored my arguments calling my sources "Marxist apologist". My proposal to edit a dubious section on the talk page and to re-insert it into the article after a consensus is achieved, a tactics that worked fine for, e.g. WWII article, was simply ignored.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:47, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you mean the section were you were Bold and removed it, then yourself, Igny and snowed Snowed edit warred to keep it out? With all three of you hitting 3r along with a couple of ip`s which lead to the article being locked out? mark (talk) 20:27, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I mean the section which I temporarily moved to the talk page section to re-write and re-introduce into the article. Since this section contained obvious nonsense, it would be incorrect to let it to stay in the article during possibly endless dispute. In addition, I proposed some concrete way to reconcile both points of view and make it neutral. All of that has been ignored by the editors belonging to another party.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:05, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * My 2¢: that page is a mess. Large sections of it use the rhetorical style of FOX news pundits (illegitimate associations between unrelated ideas designed to promote a particular anti-communist viewpoint - effectively a form of right-wing Mad Libs), much of it is aimed at attacking Marxist theory by leveraging revolutionary practices, and the general behavior of all involved parties is (shall I say politely) less than optimal.  If the page weren't locked I'd simply go after it with garden shears and a trowel; right now I'm just hoping that we can settle the issues with some straw polls.  if you all want to go and drop your votes on the straw polls I opened, and if we can get a reasonable consensus that way, it might just put a stop (either way) to some of the shenanigans.  -- Ludwigs 2  18:50, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump is a promising new editor who we would like to keep—funnily enough I was just admiring an edit of his (this one), which turned up on my watchlist. His "legal threat" was so vague as to be meaningless; plus he's a newbie, presumably not familiar with the labyrinthine ways of Wikipedia. I think it's appallingly bitey to immediately block him indefinitely for saying "I am aware that Wikipedia policy is to discourage recourse to legal measures, but given the grossly offensive nature of this statement, I see that I have little choice." If *I* said that, it would be appropriate to block me, but a newbie? Come on, what's wrong with having a word with him and explaining that talk about legal measures isn't merely discouraged on Wikipedia. Unless there is general objection, I'm going to unblock him in a while, and advise him to withdraw the offending statement. Toddst1, I'm aware that you have already advised him what to do, but I don't think starting with an indefinite block is a good way to get people to listen receptively. Bishonen | talk 20:32, 24 October 2010 (UTC).
 * Please give your opinion below about my intention to unblock:
 * An undertaking to retract the legal threat is all that is required for a legal threat block to be lifted. I don't think that consensus is required, since it says that in WP:LEGAL. Get the undertaking first, then press the button. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:00, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Firstly, obviously, this legal threat was just an inadequate response of a newbie on continuous insults and perceived legal threats from Justus Maximus' side (repeated accusation in such a crime as propaganda of terrorism are the perceived legal threat). Obviously, the Andy's response was highly emotional, however, taking into account that both these editors are novices, and taking into account that Justus Maximus has been warned many time about his unacceptable behaviour, this reaction is understandable (although not excusable). In addition, we all are partially guilty in that, because we where too tolerant to a newbie Justus Maximus. I do not understand why another newbie has to suffer from that our mistake. In my opinion, the block can be lifted immediately after Andy will agree to retract this threat.
 * Secondly, I propose not to forget that this issue has only tangential relation to this thread, which has been initiated by Justus Maximus and it is de facto a renewal of this previous thread. Therefore, I propose to return to this topic, especially, taking into account that the norms of acceptable behaviour have been explained to Justus Maximus now, and the experienced editor who initially voluntarily decided  to coach him/her through a collaborative approach by that moment gave up and does not see any value in continuation of a dialogue with him--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:27, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, I'll leave Andy blocked for now, since he rather dances around a really unequivocal withdrawal of the offending statement. I can't blame him for being a grumpy Grump just now, though, and I hope people are watching his page and are prepared to unblock if/when he does withdraw it properly, for instance in line with Toddst1's crisp post. It's late in my timezone, so I won't be watching. But as I said, it would be nice to keep this editor. Bishonen | talk 22:48, 24 October 2010 (UTC).
 * I think you should unblock. This is a good new editor and even experienced editors would be driven to distraction by the situation on that talk page.   --<font color="#801818" face="Papyrus">Snowded  <font color="#708090" face="Baskerville">TALK  02:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Andy should now be unblocked, as he has withdrawn his threat of legal action. <b style="color:#009900;">Ks0stm</b> (T•C•G) 02:47, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for handling that. Toddst1 (talk) 16:27, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Return to Justus Maximus
Shall we return to User:Justus Maximus and that wall of text again.He's still (as in last week's ANI) turning what is basically a dispute about the interpretation placed on historical events by later scholars, into what seems to be a personal crusade to expose Marx and Lenin as Communist terrorists. Justus must somehow be persuaded that people are allowed to disagree with him, and further that he must not accuse the people who disagree with him of being closet Marxist terrorists. Snowded has been very patient, but I don't think he's got anywhere, Andy has been blocked after an unwise remark about legal action, and is waiting to see what we do. Paul Seibert is I believe correct that in the US at least, advocating or publicising terrorism is a criminal offence, so JM's unreasonable accusation of Andy goes beyond your average ad hominem. I don't see him warned for it, and I think a forceful warning from someone who can follow up an 'if you do this again you will be blocked' threat is the very minimum that must be done. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:34, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm almost tempted to say that accusing someone of being a terrorism advocate warrants a warning plus a short block, but given the time since the comment the block would end up being not so much preventative as punitive. So, I agree that a "final warning" of sorts where any further personal attacks or general incivility warrant a good 2-3 day block, especially if they are along the lines of accusing people of terrorism related things. I'll deliver a templated final warning, but anyone else should feel free to expand on it (or replace it) with their own composition. <b style="color:#009900;">Ks0stm</b> (T•C•G) 00:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Second Elen and Ks0stm on forceful warning. Accusing other editors of criminal activity is not acceptable. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:21, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps from one of those already in this conversation is germane, using the clearly problematic assertion "Firstly, before we continue I expect you to retract your libellous statements and legal threats. Are you going to do that?" on 17 October. As you note, accusing others of criminal activity is not acceptable, and sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, no? Collect (talk) 00:27, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * * sigh...that's one of those cases where I choose to solidly assume good faith in his intent and assume low clue in his word choice. I'd go for advising a little less strong word choice/rhetoric with that comment. <b style="color:#009900;">Ks0stm</b> (T•C•G) 00:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * When I posted about this issue I noted that, since Justus Maximus is a newbie, the immediate sanctions against him are premature. I believed -<font color="#801818" face="Papyrus">Snowded <font color="#708090" face="Baskerville">TALK 's voluntary mentorship would resolve the situation. However, our tolerance towards this newbie resulted in a block of another newbie (Andy), who faced the situation which, according to his limited WP experience, seemed unresolvable by him, and, as a result, resorted to legal threats.
 * However, the issue is not only in accusations in criminal activity. Justus Maximus seems to deeply misunderstand the policy: he believes that based solely on his vision of the subject he can accept of reject sources, which he arbitrarily calls "reliable" or "apologist"; he believes that based on the sources available for him he can reject what other sources say; he does not understand that commenting on a contributor is not acceptable; he does not understand that drawing own conclusion based on few quotes from historical documents taken out of historical contest is absolutely incorrect, etc. Someone, who is not considered by him as a personification of the devil (in other words, not I) should explain that to him. Any help is appreciated.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:09, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps JM would voluntarily go through a set of lessons (Mono's program comes to mind, but I believe it is still under construction, so perhaps one similar to it) with the objective of teaching him such core policies as Reliable Sources, No Original Research, No Personal Attacks, etc, to the point where he could explain what the fundamental meaning of these core policies are? At any rate, for the time being, he should be kept on a very short leash regarding personal attacks and civility (in line with the warning I posted on his talk page). <b style="color:#009900;">Ks0stm</b> (T•C•G) 01:51, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It would really be very helpful if a few other editors would explain OR and SYNTH to Justus, he either does not understand or is not listening. --<font color="#801818" face="Papyrus">Snowded  <font color="#708090" face="Baskerville">TALK  02:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd do that (I'm usually good at such explanations) except I don't think it would have any effect at this point in time. JM is smart enough to be very cagey intellectually and determined enough in his viewpoints that he is unlikely to willingly back down.  Honestly, I think the best approach would be to warn him for disruptive editing, and if he keeps it up give him short block to get his attention.  he needs to have a reason to settle down and listen, because he's (obviously) having a lot of fun spinning out arguments to support his position at the moment.  -- Ludwigs 2  04:19, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * With regret I think you are right, it will take a block to get him to listen --<font color="#801818" face="Papyrus">Snowded <font color="#708090" face="Baskerville">TALK  12:30, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I think some of the above comments do appear to confirm rather than negate the impression that there is a bias here.


 * In particular, what the comments appear to ignore is:


 * (1) that AndyTheGrump engaged in personal attacks on me long before I even addressed any of the editors involved in the discussion.


 * (2) that Paul Siebert has been employing false statements as a pretext to exclude relevant material from the article and/or discussion.


 * (3) that editors like Paul Siebert are habitually permitted to use original research in their arguments whereas I am being attacked on the rare occasions I happen to do so (and only when requested by other editors to explain why I believe something to be the case).


 * (4) that at no point has it been explained how personal attacks by editors such as AndyTheGrump differ/are less offensive than mine.


 * Until such time as issues like the above have been objectively addressed I cannot but regard such comments as a continuation of personal attacks on me started by AndyTheGrump Justus Maximus (talk) 10:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Paul Siebert, if your statements like those regarding the word strakh, Lenin's endorsement of terror, and the Bolshevik abolition of the death-penalty are not intentionally fraudulent, then why won't you admit that they are false and retract them? Justus Maximus (talk) 10:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Incivility and original research are wrong no matter who does it. But it is no excuse for more incivility and more original research.  You have certainly crossed the line with serious accusations against other editors and lengthy discourses at Talk:Communist terrorism.  It appears you are unwilling to follow the policies that WP imposes.  TFD (talk) 11:46, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * It is evident from Justus Maximus's last statement that he has no intention of apologising for his grossly offensive personal comments, but instead chooses to continue his misrepresentations and insinuations. I am therefore going to seek a solution through the relevant Wikipedia channels. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AndyTheGrump (talk • contribs) 13:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Dear AndyTheGrump, of course I am prepared to apologize for any of my remarks (1) should it be established beyond reasonable doubt that they do indeed constitute "grossly offensive personal comments" and (2) if you retract, and apologize for, your own personal attacks that, after all, were made first, logically and chronologically speaking.


 * As a sign of good will, I hereby give you a chance to do so by explaining why you alleged that I had "distorted the meaning" of the Engels quote.
 * Justus Maximus (talk) 16:05, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Incivility and original research are wrong no matter who does it


 * Then please apply that principle impartially to all.Justus Maximus (talk) 16:20, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Justus Maximus, can you please provide a link to the supposed 'personal attack' of mine that was "first, logically and chronologically speaking". At that point, we can at least see what I said, and what preceded it.
 * As for "grossly offensive personal comments", if you are unable to accept that calling someone 'pro-terrorist' is grossly offensive, I can only conclude that you have a strange concept of what the words 'grossly offensive' mean. As has been pointed out several times already, it could reasonably be interpreted as implying illegality on my part. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:50, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Which 'Engels quote', JM?


 * Justus Maximus seems to have taken the opportunity here to repeat allegations about me, without providing any evidence. Can I ask how long I'm expected to wait for his response before citing it as further evidence of his non-compliance with Wikipedia standards? To ensure he has seen this, I'll post a further notification on his talk page, but I see no reason to wait indefinitely. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:50, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Justus Maximus, can you please provide a link to the supposed 'personal attack' of mine that was "first, logically and chronologically speaking". At that point, we can at least see what I said, and what preceded it


 * AndyTheGrump, I meant of course the Marx quote. You ought to know exactly which personal attack I'm referring to unless you didn't read my post, above. If that is the case, please read it first.


 * Meanwhile, I repeat your statement below:


 * "the replacement of the initial part by ellipsis arguably distorted the intended meaning" - AndyTheGrump, talk page, 03:56, 6 October 2010 (UTC). Surely, you recall your own statements don't you?


 * The way I see it the facts of the matter are as follows:


 * (1) You claimed on the talk page that Marx’s article containing the statement on revolutionary terrorism (“The Victory of Counter-Revolution in Vienna”) was obscure and you had not been aware of its existence. However, as I pointed out, it couldn’t have been obscure to students of Marx given that it was quoted by Marxists such as Kautsky. Moreover, Kautsky’s Terrorism and Communism is a Marxist classic. It follows that (a) as a historian specializing in Marxism you ought to have known where the quote was from, (b) as an editor participating in a discussion on Communist terrorism, you ought to have been familiar with a Marxist work on Terrorism and Communism, and as neither (a) nor (b) appears to be the case, (c) this raises very serious and legitimate doubts about your competence to participate in such a discussion.


 * (2) By claiming to know what Marx’s intended meaning was, you indulged in original research and took a pro-Marxist stand.


 * (3) The fact is that Marx is telling a lie in that article. The truth of the matter is that the number of demonstrators killed by the National Guard was between 6 and 18. Here’s what actually happened:


 * “When the National Guard tried to disperse the protesters, there were clashes, which escalated on 23 August. The Academic Legion, though refusing to join in the repression, was reluctant to side with the insurgents and stood back, a mere spectator to what followed. Lacking the support of the very people whom they regarded as their leaders, the workers stood no chance. Demonstrators were beaten with the flats of sabres, bayoneted and shot. Between 6 and 18 workers were killed, and between 36 and 152 seriously wounded (depending upon whether one believes government or radical counts). When the fighting was over, women from the more prosperous quarters of the city garlanded the National Guards’ bayonets with flowers … The Democratic Club shouted down Marx, who was then visiting Vienna, when he tried to argue that the violence was a class struggle between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie. For Engels, 23 August was the moment when the middle class abandoned the cause of the people: ‘thus the unity and strength of the revolutionary force was broken; the class-struggle had come in Vienna, too, to a bloody outbreak, and the counter-revolutionary camarillasaw the day approaching on which it might strike its grand blow’. But Marx found that it was not only the middle class who were deserting the revolution; there was little sympathy for his ideas even when he addressed workers’ meetings. On 7 September, he left Vienna, grumbling at the stubborn refusal of the workers to see that they should be waging a class war against the bourgeoisie” (Mike Rapport, 1848:Year of Revolution, London: Little, Brown, 2008, pp. 230-1).


 * It follows from the above that Marx’s use of rhetorical flourishes like “massacres” and “cannibalism” was intended to deceive the readers and incite them to armed insurrection on false pretences. It is beyond dispute that the primary intention of the article was to incite to armed insurrection, as correctly observed by the authorities who closed down Marx’s paper on that very ground.


 * (4) The quote as initially provided by me illustrated Marx’s endorsement of terrorism and was relevant to the section “Views of Marxist theoreticians and leaders.” By contrast, the “intended meaning” as implied by your statement was irrelevant. It follows that your assertion “the replacement of the initial part by ellipsis, arguably distorted the intended meaning” is uncalled for and lends itself to being interpreted as deliberately offensive.


 * As already stated, I am prepared to retract any remarks of mine (1) should it be established beyond reasonable doubt that they do indeed constitute "grossly offensive personal comments" and (2) if you retract, and apologize for, your own personal attacks that, after all, were made first, logically and chronologically speaking.


 * So, if you are indeed interested in peaceful cooperation between editors, all you need to do is retract and apologize for your offensive remarks. It's very simple. Justus Maximus (talk) 12:22, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Hold up a second. JM, are you seriously saying that the "Marx quote" is the bit where it was stated your edit "arguably distorted" the meaning of the source? That's not a personal attack, by any stretch of the imagination. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 12:37, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * It looks that way, HandThatFeeds. It's worth noting that the (half)quote we were discussing was in the article even before JM got involved. He (usefully) provided a link to the original source, and correctly added the ellipsis to indicate it was part of a longer sentence. I provided the remainder of the sentence (though there are two different English translations available, and I think I used the wrong one - as I've noted on the article talk page). It is also worth noting that at the time I made this revision, JM made no suggestion that I was being offensive. This attempt of mine to make a perfectly reasonable edit to a contentious quote to provide some context has only later been identified by JM as part of a Marxist plot to censor him. He initially seems to have been unaware of the standards which apply to Wikipedia, and took any attempts to persuade him to conform to them as 'suppression' of his preferred sources. Almost from the start he was accusing others of 'falsehoods'. He has since argued that he doesn't agree with the need for reliable sources if they contradict his 'ethics'. He has chosen yet again to make a personal attack on me on the most ridiculous grounds. He writes that 'as a historian specializing in Marxism you ought to have known where the quote was from' which is surely an indication of his complete detachment from reality: I'm not a historian, and have never claimed to be. Neither have I actually claimed to be a 'specialist in Marxism'. I had merely earlier pointed out that the Marx quote wasn't in any of Marx's major works (it isn't), which is why I'd asked where it was from. Justus Maximus chooses to insinuate that I knew where it was from all along, and then uses this bogus assumption to 'prove' his ludicrous conspiracy theories. The man is clearly incapable of logical thought on issues he has any emotional involvement with, and thus cannot be anything but a liability as a Wikipedia editor. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:15, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

The persistent refusal by Justus Maximus to conform to Wikipedia standards
As will be evident from the earlier section started by Justus Maximus here, he has consistently refused to conform to Wikipedia rules regarding civility. In particular, he has repeatedly described another contributor and myself as 'pro-terrorist' - a grossly offensive personal attack. He has also repeatedly been asked to withdraw such statements, and refused. He shows no interest in adhering to other Wikipedia norms either, and has instead argued that his 'ethics' override the need for reliable sources. On his own talk page he suggested that a "Marxist apologist brigade...controls the whole Wikipedia project" here, which seems a clear indication of his attitude towards Wikipedia, and should in itself be sufficient grounds for concluding that he can contribute nothing useful. I therefore suggest that he be banned from further editing until he withdraws his grossly offensive personal attacks and gives an assurance that he will conform to Wikipedia standards. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:01, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Dear AndyTheGrump, please see my response above. Justus Maximus (talk) 16:06, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Justus, you are just wasting everyone's time, most of all your own. Wikipedia is not the forum to present original ideas and interpretations. I suggest you voluntarily refrain from editing anything to do with communism for some time. Work on other articles and learn how cooperation on Wikipedia works. I you do not do this voluntarily I will have to propose, that a topic ban be placed on you. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:46, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Just as a note, I think there is a severe WP:COMPETENCE problem. Apart from the above discussion Justus appears to be editing an old version of AN/I to respond to threads, but does not appear to understand what he is doing? I've tried explaining as best I can but he is having trouble with understanding what I mean by an "old version of the page". Anyone else that can weigh in with help would be appreciated. Talk page thread --Errant[tmorton166] $(chat!)$ 15:13, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I note that Justus Maximus has still refused to withdraw his grossly offensive personal remarks about me, in spite of having quite sufficient time to do so, and in spite of making several edits to Wikipedia since my last comments in this section. He has instead insisted that I withdraw 'personal remarks' about him first, though the only example he has (eventually and reluctantly) given any real reference too was clearly not offensive at all (he didn't seem to think so at the time either, see my last posting above). I will not deny that I did indeed later make some personal remarks, but any inspection of the relevant talk page will show that this was only after he had began his malevolent insinuations and aspersions about other editors, and nothing I said can be remotely comparable to his characterisation of another editor and myself as 'pro-terrorist'. He further insists that it be 'established beyond reasonable doubt that they do indeed constitute "grossly offensive personal comments"', entirely reversing any reasonable burden of proof. I have shown a great deal of patience since my perhaps hasty reaction the last time he made this slur, but am now in the position where it appears that no sanctions are to be taken against him, and his remarks remain in Wikipedia files. As a new contributor, I could probably cease participating in the project, and walk away with no great harm done (his characterisation is so ludicrous as to be hardly credible), but I hardly think it is conducive to my long-term participation in Wikipedia to have such offensive comments available for all to see, and for Justus Maximus to continue unsanctioned. I don't intend this to seem an ultimatum, but I do have to ask whether other editors would tolerate the same situation, or instead withdraw from the project? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:04, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * AndyTheGrump, I note that it is not for you to decide which of your remarks are offensive to others, but for those affected by your remaks to do so. Your assertion to the effect that my quote "distorted the intended meaning" was offensive to me as it wrongly implied that it had been my intention to distort something. I did not immediately react to your offensive remark precisely because I wanted to avoid conflict and was hoping that it had been a mistake on your part. Your subsequent behavior demonstrated that it had not been a mistake, in particular when you exhibited a clear pro-Marxist or what I called "apologist" bias. Justus Maximus (talk) 11:03, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No, you don't get to decide what is offensive. Disagreeing with a position you have advanced is NEVER offensive, no matter how controversial.  The way it is expressed may or may not be offensive - I have not see Andy say anything that constitutes a personal attack under the WP:NPA policy.  I have not seen you being rude, but I have seen you making extremely personal comments about people's political beliefs, to the extent that you appear to be accusing them of something that might be a criminal act in the US.  Ascribing offensive motives to people who oppose you is a breach of Wikipedia policy, in your case what you have said is a personal attack. You should not do so again, and should redact the instances where you are accusing people of supporting terrorism, otherwise you do risk being blocked. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:17, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Can I point out at this point that my comment about how the truncation of the quotation from Marx could arguably have distorted its meaning need not even have been directed at Justus Maximus, but at those others who had previously truncated it. Had he bothered to raise his concerns, I would gladly have clarified this. In any case, I suspect this particular supposedly 'offensive' comment is only being raised by JM in order to justify his claim that I was 'offensive' first. I'd argue that even if I had been (I wasn't, at least by intent), this would in no way justify his gross and continuing mischaracterisations of my attitude towards terrorism. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you might consider that picking at a sore does not generally make it heal? Meanwhile, you assert on the article talk page that the IRA became peace-loving when it became Marxist, and that the "terrorists" were "right wing" which shows something, I suppose.   shows a great deal of the problem is that some editos "know" when all they are supposed to do is simply use whatever the sources say, and no more. Collect (talk) 11:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Collect, can you explain exactly how this is relevant to the subject of this section? And by the way, you completely misrepresent what I wrote, as anyone can see from the link you gave. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:09, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * you appear to be accusing them of something that might be a criminal act in the US


 * Absolutely not. My remarks such as "apologists for Marxist terrorism" (14:19 17 October UTC); "attempt to whitewash Marxist terrorism" (13:09 17 October UTC); "attempt to justify Marxist terrorism" (08:45 18 October UTC) refer in all cases and without exception to Marxist terrorism in the historical context of the section under discussion, as ought to be obvious from the context. In other words, I was accusing the above editors of supporting, justifying, whitewashing, etc. terrorism as advocated/deployed by Marxists in the past. It follows that my remarks are well beyond the jurisdiction of the US or any other country I know of and cannot be construed as "accusation of a criminal act" by any stretch of the imagination or the law. Justus Maximus (talk) 12:29, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * You've missed out the one where you accused me (and another) of promoting "a pro-Marxist (pro-terrorist) agenda" at the start of this section. How can someone have an 'agenda' which promotes terrorism in the past? You're only making things worse for yourself, JM. I'd suggest for your own good you should either apologise ant retract your comments, or go edit Conservapedia instead - someone else can then remove your mischaracterisations, and we can all get back to doing something useful. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * How can someone have an 'agenda' which promotes terrorism in the past?


 * He can perfectly well do so in the sense of "justify the use of terrorism by Marxists in the past", as already explained and as evident from the context. You appeared to deny the fact that Marx/Engels advocated terrorism, Paul Siebert appeared to justify the terrorist activities of Lenin, etc. All these issues were in the past. It isn't my fault that you refuse to understand. It seems to me it is you who are wasting everyone's time with your ridiculous allegations of "libel", etc. Justus Maximus (talk) 13:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * He's still (as in last week's ANI) turning what is basically a dispute about the interpretation placed on historical events by later scholars, into what seems to be a personal crusade to expose Marx and Lenin as Communist terrorists


 * Not quite, I'm afraid. The dispute was primarily about Marx and Lenin's endorsement/practice of terrorism on the evidence of their own writings and other sources. I have in the meantime provided sources such as leading Socialists/Marxists confirming this to be the case. If it seemed like a "crusade", this is due entirely to certain editors' persistent and unreasonable refusal to acknowledge the sources. Justus Maximus (talk) 13:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Justus Maximus, how exactly do you reconcile your last statement about your suggestion that I was promoting "a pro-Marxist (pro-terrorist) agenda" with what you wrote earlier: "I note that it is not for you to decide which of your remarks are offensive to others, but for those affected by your rema[r]ks to do so".


 * As for me denying "the fact that Marx/Engels advocated terrorism". You have yet to provide WP:RS which adequately shows that this is "fact" rather than opinion, though once again this is off-topic, since the issue here is not whether Marx or Engels advocated terrorism, but whether your ludicrous assertion that I am 'pro-terrorist' is permissible on Wikipedia. Please stick to the topic under debate. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:49, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * You are playing your usual games again, aren't you? I have never disputed anyone's right to feel offended. My dispute was solely in respect of the suggestion that my remarks fell under US or any other legislation I am aware of. My remarks regarding Marx and Lenin's endorsement/practice of terrorism were intended to illustrate the historical context of the debate which has no bearing on present terrorism or legislation concerning it. So, sorry, but it is difficult to see how your campaign can succeed if you can't even get your facts straight. Justus Maximus (talk) 14:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Justus Maximus has just posted a request that I "stop threatening" him here. Since it is evident I made no threat there, can I ask that this is also taken into account when considering action against him. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Justus appears to be editing an old version of AN/I to respond to threads, but does not appear to understand what he is doing


 * Objection: I edited an old version of the page inadvertently, having followed a link to an old version posted by Snowded on my talk page. Being unfamiliar with ANI/Wikipedia procedures I thought that was where I was meant to respond. It does not appear that the problem is recurring now that I see I was following the wrong link. Justus Maximus (talk) 14:54, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, enough
This page is for requesting administrator action, not for endless bickering. There is one issue here - Justus Maximus, at one point you said that your opponents (who were at that time Andy and Paul Seibert) were promoting "a pro-Marxist (pro-terrorist) agenda". That statement is out of order, and you have been asked by both parties to withdraw it. You will also find a number of contributors on this thread saying that you should withdraw it. You have stated that what you meant was an agenda in terms of what interpretation of history they support, which statement would not be objectionable under Wikipedia rules. Are you prepared to refactor any statement which Paul or Andy believe is saying that they promote terrorism, so it is either struck or else it is clear that it refers to historical interpretation not to modern activism. If you will do that, then no furhter administrator intervention is required. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah, the goddess Sophia in her incarnation of (H)elen has finally spoken! I was beginning to fear we were going to be subjected to the childish pranks of certain editors till the end of time. Of course I am prepared to refactor some of my statements should this be thought necessary. However, my concerns regarding the false statements made by Paul Siebert (see above) do remain an issue. We can't have an objective and constructive discussion on an article if editors resort to false statements in support of their personal opinion and original research. Could you please advise me as how/where these issues may be addressed? Justus Maximus (talk) 15:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, the section title "The persistent refusal by Justus Maximus to conform to Wikipedia standards" is inaccurate and (deliberately?) misleading. I have never refused any such thing. I'm simply asking that the same standards be applied impartially to all, including to editors like Paul Siebert and AndyTheGrump. Justus Maximus (talk) 15:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: Justus Maximus did remove "pro-terrorist" above: Kansan (talk) 16:22, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Correct. Let it be noted that I have removed the phrase "pro-terrorist" from the ANI section "AndyTheGrump and Paul Siebert". I couldn't find it anywhere on the talk page though. I will take another look later and promise to remove/refactor it by tomorrow. I hope my concerns regarding Paul Siebert's statements can now finally be addressed so we can continue the discussion in an objective and amicable manner. Justus Maximus (talk) 16:27, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I have indef blocked Justus Maximus until such time as they give a straight forward answer, without attempting to make it conditional upon other related matters. Any admin is free to undo my action upon being satisfied that JM has fully complied with Elen of the Roads request. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:27, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * fine with me; ... drawn here by an amusing ;) Jack Merridew 20:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Bravo on successfully biting a newbie. Did not Kansan just note above that Justus Maximus in fact removed the offending phrase? Did not Justus Maximus just state above "Let it be noted that I have removed the phrase "pro-terrorist" from the ANI section". Sheesh, did't you people read the thread before acting? --Martin (talk) 00:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "[D]id't you people read the thread before acting"? He made the allegation repeatedly, as he himself notes (he even provides timestamps for several). He removed one instance, while still equivocating and trying to use other issues to delay things. This raises an interesting question. With him blocked, would it not now be correct to remove the offending phrases. I don't think it would be appropriate to do this myself, but I'm not happy to leave them indefinitely. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:05, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * How about you AGF? Justus Maximus stated "I couldn't find it anywhere on the talk page though. I will take another look later and promise to remove/refactor it by tomorrow.", people have to sleep you know. I had trouble finding that single instance on the ANI page and you haven't posted diffs of any other, as far as I can tell. --Martin (talk) 01:15, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Re: "Bravo on successfully biting a newbie" The fact that JM is a newbie has already been taken into account. I was absolutely satisfied when, in a response on my ANI post, a neutral editor agreed to supervise JM. You also probably noticed that, despite I was one of two primary objects of JM attacks, I tried to abstain from this discussion as much as possible, except the case when another newbie has been blocked as a result of our too tolerant attitude towards JM.
 * However, in my opinion, JM made absolutely wrong conclusions from our acts of good will towards him, namely, he decided that his behaviour, with exception of one phrase, is quite acceptable. However, it is not. He repeatedly comments on other contributors, he claims that I (as well as some other editors) have an agenda (is it acceptable, in your opinion?), that I (as well as some other editors) am an apologist of some sort (is it acceptable?). And, more importantly, he does not understand the fundamental principle of Wikipedia, namely, neutrality: the fact that he found few sources that support his POV seems to him to be sufficient to reject the well sourced arguments of others. As a result, his voluntary supervisor gave up and now he sees no use in collaboration with him. Another neutral editor is currently trying to explain quite obvious things to him on the Communist terrorism talk page, without any signs of success so far.
 * In summary, I support this block and I would like to see real signs of good faith from JM's side before the block will be lifted.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:45, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * PS. I am ready to explain to him his major mistakes if he will express a desire to listen. He may leave a post on his talk page.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, Ellen of Roads did state "You have stated that what you meant was an agenda in terms of what interpretation of history they support, which statement would not be objectionable under Wikipedia rules ". She then requests "Are you prepared to refactor any statement which Paul or Andy believe is saying that they promote terrorism, so it is either struck or else it is clear that it refers to historical interpretation not to modern activism.". To be fair it seems that Justus Maximus did in fact comply with Elen's request in good faith, as Kansan posted evidence shows. Justus Maximus even goes further and states "I couldn't find it anywhere on the talk page though. I will take another look later and promise to remove/refactor it by tomorrow.". Having complied with Elen's request in good faith, I don't understand why Justus Maximus was blocked in the first place. --Martin (talk) 05:27, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * In other words, everything else is acceptable behaviour in your opinion?
 * Re "remove/refactor". In actuality, the situation cannot be resolved so easily. JM openly and repeatedly claimed that Marxism = terrorism. Therefore any his claim that someone is pro-Marxist (Marxist apologist) sounds as implicit or even explicit accusation in promoting terrorist views. I expect him either to provide a solid evidence that Marxism is terrorism (which would be impossible, because it is a well recognised scientific doctrine), or to take an obligation in future to refrain from any personal comment on anybody in a context of Marxism.--Paul Siebert (talk) 10:52, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Before taking this rather pointless debate any further, can I suggest that people take a look at JMs talk page, where he writes that 'as confirmed by several editors there I have complied with Elen of the Road's request to remove or refactor the phrase "pro-terrorist" from the relevant text'. He seems to be under the misapprehension that it was only the final instance of his repeated mischaracterisation that was at issue, and thus shows no understanding of what the problem was in the first place. As has already been pointed out by numerous contributors, he shows a complete lack of awareness of what Wikipedia standards are. He has repeatedly disrupted the talk page on a controversial issue with WP:SYN and personal attacks. He has shown no evidence of accepting that WP:RS is what matters in this context, rather than his 'ethics' as he earlier argued. As his talk page shows, he is still firmly convinced that Wikipedia is in the grip of a Marxist cabal. Given all this, unblocking can only result in further disruption. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:10, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

The basis of LessHeard vanU's block is "I have indef blocked JM until as such time as the comply fully with Elen of the Roads request". However Justus Maximus had already complied with Elen's request to remove references to "promoting terrorism". Elen stated that mention of an agenda in terms what interpretation of history you support as not objectionable under Wikipedia rules. I think Justus Maximus took Elen's word in good faith and refactored the comment as requested and stated that he would check for other instances of the comment and remove them the following day, presumably after a night's sleep. After Elen herself stated that the primary issue is the reference to "promoting terrorism" should be removed and once removed no furhter administrator intervention is required, it is unfair to claim Justus Maximus did not go far enough when in fact he did precisely what Elen asked him to do. The remainder of the issues is related to content and should be dealt with elsewhere, I don't think whipping up hysteria and wiki-drama is a legitimate method of dealing with some of the issues of content that both sides validly raise. --Martin (talk) 11:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no hysteria or wiki-drama. A community was tolerant towards JM for long time, and even now we all are ready to collaborate with him as soon as he will agree to observe normal behavioural standards (e.g. to avoid constant repetitions of the mantra about others' "false statements", etc). However, as you can see from his recent posts on his talk page (where he, for instance blames another editor in his own sins), he is not ready to do that. --Paul Siebert (talk) 12:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Harrassment by User:Codf1977
Despite the negative result from the following SPI Sockpuppet investigations/Codf1977 I still strongly believe that User:VHarris44 is controlled by User:Codf1977 and that they are merely operating from another PC and location.

Codf1977 claims on their talk page to be retired and uncontactable via their wikipedia account but, the very next day after my difficulties with VHarris44 and the opening of the SPI they have immediately re-emerged and posted a lengthy exposition of their view of my dealings with VHarris44 here: User talk:TFOWR.

Leaving aside the fact that it appears highly inappropriate for Codf1977 to post a message of complaint of that nature about me on another user's talk page without informing me, I believe that Codf1977's immediate re-appearance and immediate highly detailed account of their view of VHarris44's behaviour shows that Codf1977 and VHarris44 are one and the same. This may not be provable from IP searches, but in my opinion it is clear from the editing behaviour of Codf1977 prior to 'retirement' and VHarris44 yesterday, and from the fact that VHarris44 was aware of information about my university which had been deleted from my talk page prior to their even opening their account (but which Codf1977 was fully aware of).

Prior to their 'retirement' Codf1977 was almost obsessively trying to attack pages that I had either created or edited e.g. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Universities. I felt very strongly that they were trying to harrass me, although I was not able to convince others of this. In my view this behaviour is now continuing via other means. Rangoon11 (talk) 11:37, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Forum shopping of the first order, you have made allegations that I have harassed you before at ANI, on your talk page and on Shell Kinney talk page  and on each and every time it came back as no.
 * Your accusation that I am editing from another computer is groundless and false as I have made clear on the SPI you filed yesterday, the reason for the post to TFOWR was, because I had concerns that you gamed the system, fanning no knowledge of SPI when you yourself had been through the process yourself not three weeks ago. I wanted a second pair of eyes to look over what went on. Codf1977 (talk) 12:20, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Rangoon11 is clearly forum-shopping of the highest order. You've pissed off enough people on Wikipedia that there could in fact be many people who would create a new account and follow you around.  Blaming one specific user again and again who has been technically declared to not be related is harassment on your own part.  The history of your userpage is available to everyone - getting university info might just be easy.  You're possibly correct that this new, random userid is harassing you and that you might need to follow up with that, but your accusations that it's a specific user again and again is not going to end well for you. ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 12:51, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Follow-up: I have blocked Rangoon11 for 48hrs for clear harassment. Going to any possible lengths to try to implement a block due to a clearly mistaken belief (considering technical SPI) requires action.  Enough is enough, and considering the block log of Rangoon for NLT, it's about time for this action. ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 12:56, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I would comment that I voiced a similar suspicion as to a connection between the VHarris44 account and the suddenly reactivated "retired" account Codf1977 at my talkpage following comments from another admin. I understand that there is history between Rangoon11 and Codf1977, and suggest that that makes R11 more sensitive to the possibilities of sock puppetry - and, of course, the fact that CU is not magic pixie dust. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:11, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I acknowledge the pixie dust. That said, when SPI says no technical way, and there's no other valid method of linking the accounts, continue to say "nevertheless, stop the harassment from person X because I'm just magically sure it's him" is reproachful.  It is in itself harassing.  Colonel Warden has given him great advice to follow after this 48hr block is up. ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 13:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately I have no way to "prove" Vharris44 is not me. I will repeat again for what it is worth, that I have only ever edited WP from this account (plus the odd IP edit by accident when not logged in). I freely admit to checking my Talk page every few days or so, The reason for responding this morning was out of anger that despite the fact I had taken the decision (in part as a result of Rangoon11) not to edit WP any more but to go off and do something else for a while, Rangoon11 was appearing to be intent on trying to rubbish my reputation. Since my areas of interest are reasonably narrow any attempt at an alternate account would be spotted a mile off so my reputation here now and in the future (if I ever decided to resume editing) is based on my behaviour and logs. The reason for the post to TFOWR's talk page was after looking at the set of events yesterday I felt that Rangoon11 gamed the system for example claiming that he was "not sure what to do about it." when he knew about SPI, then waiting for three hours in the hope someone else might open the SPI, before doing it himself. Codf1977 (talk) 13:58, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:RBI needed
Can somebody block Grundle's latest IP,. It appears he has a new range.  Grsz 11  04:44, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

The following articles were created by sockpuppets of banned user User:Grundle2600, and so need to be deleted:

Aiyana Jones

HD 10180

Into The Universe with Stephen Hawking

Megaleledone setebos

New Black Panther Party voter intimidation case

Obama Zombies: How the Liberal Machine Brainwashed My Generation

Sack tapping

Spinoloricus sp. nov.

74.98.44.223 (talk) 04:45, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Even if they have, most of these feature significant contributions from other editors, so they would be ineligible for speedy deletion under the persona non grata criteria. Several may be eligible for AFD discussions. The first one, for example, seems to be a WP:NOTNEWS issue. If there are articles which have been recently created by Grundle, and feature no significant contributions from editors in good standing, please feel free to list those here. But merely being created by Grundle is not enough justification to throw away the significant work of those that edited the articles after him. -- Jayron  32  04:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Heh, that IP was Grundle. He does this with all his socks. Goodvac  (<font color="Blue">talk ) 04:56, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Was going to comment the same thing. It was his "witty" response to the above.  Grsz 11  04:57, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

TSbay spam only account
per their contribs, this is a very slow, but spam only account. They've never done anything in the 2 years they've had an account except repeatedly try to add the same link to the same article. Should be blocked.--Crossmr (talk) 05:52, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ The account has been blocked for spamming. In the future, spam only accounts can also be handled through WP:AIV.  -- Jayron  32  06:21, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It wasn't a fresh diff, last time I took something there it was removed for not happening in the last 3 seconds.--Crossmr (talk) 13:10, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Floyd C. Bayne
Floyd C. Bayne was deleted today per Articles for deletion/Floyd C. Bayne, but the article was re-created. Newly created account, User:Libertyactivist, keeps removing the template. Help there would be appreciated. Thanks! Location (talk) 06:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The tag said I could remove it if I think it didn't fit the speedy delete criteria. I have done nothing wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Libertyactivist (talk • contribs) 06:14, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Deleted the page. Full protected. The answer if you disagree, is not to engage in disruption. Please see WP:DRV. -- Cirt (talk) 06:15, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

BLP problems at AFD discussion
Articles for deletion/Daniel Colegrove is attracting various nasty comments about the subject. They may all be true, but they still violate BLP. I can continue to police them, but I'd rather appreciate it if someone just SNOWed the discussion and protected it. I nominated the article, so obviously I can't do it. I notified both the creator and principle contributor when I nommed the article for deletion, and no word from them since then. Neither is active.--Chaser (talk) 06:12, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Done, though not protected unless it's really necessary. Is it? --John (talk) 06:23, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Some of that smells like socking to me, but ... dunno. *shrug*.  --<font color='#66dd44'>j &#9883; e deckertalk 06:27, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks John. On reflection, you're right about protecting it.--Chaser (talk) 18:17, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

user:2nd Alternate user name
needs blocking per. Cheers, Jack Merridew 07:41, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * user is back as . Need a rangeblock perhaps. → ROUX   ₪  08:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * not surprising; one of the custodians will sort this, methinks ; Cheers, Jack Merridew 08:36, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ 04:14, 28 October 2010 Zzuuzz (talk | contribs) blocked 216.75.7.68 (talk) (anon. only, account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 24 hours ‎ (Block evasion) -- DQ  (t)  (e)  12:14, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

This is, who has been socking to gain an upper hand in articles pertaining HIV. Rangeblocks are not possible at this time (one has already been blocked, which he has easily found a way around), and he is currently abusing open proxies. –MuZemike 14:47, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

edit of picture
I am the creator of File:100 1343.JPG, which was uploaded in 2007 as an illustration of the fake railway tickets used by protestors against a rise in fares in the Bristol area by First Great Western, a private railway company, in that year. I was quite new to using pictures in Wikipedia, and I didn't give it a very helpful name.

A couple of weeks ago it was overwritten with a picture of himself and his work by an artist calling himself Marcorelico. This looks to me like an error on his part rather than deliberate vandalism, since he seems to have repeated the upload a number of times. The original file still exists in the file history, but I cannot a way of restoring it. Nor can I notify Marcorelico of the problem, since his username does not seem to exist (not in the English Wikipedia, anyway).

Can someone please restore the picture file? Deipnosophista (talk) 13:45, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a problem on Commons -- you should ask at commons:Commons:Village pump. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:51, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Come now, don't just say "go ask the Commons people." Reversion is a simple matter, as is placing a move request. In any case, I have done that. <b style="color:navy;">NW</b> ( Talk ) 15:06, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Re:Myself (User:BarkingFish) @ WP:VPP
Hi. A highly unusual step, I know, but I am reporting myself to the AN/I amid a claim that I am acting and behaving in Bad faith at Village pump (policy), a claim made by User:Camelbinky. I made a tongue in cheek attempt to explain the point of the thread, by posting my own nick in a random format, as done earlier in the thread by User:TreasuryTag, who didn't seem to attract comment. My own reply to Camelbinky was less than civil, I am aware of that, but quite frankly, the fact that people can't see what I am aiming at is annoying the hell out of me. Admin attention is requested to the thread, and I will accept whatever action is proposed in response to my behaviour. <font color="red" face="Arial">Barking <font color="blue" face="Arial">Fish  02:20, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Not-even-remotely-admin comment If that comment had been directed at me, it wouldn't bother me too much; the problem of course being the subjectivity of civility. My feeling is that if you already see why it was potentially problematic, there's no point in doing anything now because it'd be punitive.  We all lose our cool sometimes.  The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 03:24, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I am impressed by BarkingFish and also not concerned about the issues raised. I have had a look and nothing seems especially bad. Basket of Puppies  03:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Weeeell, someone could block him for a second, or slap him with a trout, or say, sternly, "don't bark like that again, Fish!" And then we move right along. Take care, Fish. Drmies (talk) 05:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I like Drmies' plan. Hence:


 * Support: Slap the Fish with a Trout until it stops barking. sorry, couldn't resist  R OBERT M FROM LI  TALK/CNTRB 05:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * trout and move on. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:54, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Codfish Vodello (talk) 15:39, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I will assume good faith though I hope this is not another pointy move by BarkingFish to attempt to show that I was wrong to call him/her out on his/her actions regarding being pointy and changing their user name in that thread. I dont think it was the right thing to do as those not smart enough to catch it could have assumed it was someone new to the conversation. Such a "joke" is not funny and annoying. I dont think BarkingFish needed to be reprimanded, but I did think someone needed to point out that it was in bad taste and wrong to do, so I did point it out. To get my name mentioned on this thread and a notification on my talk page to come here was a waste of my time and a great annoyance to me personally. Another day wasted because now I dont feel like being on Wikidrama and therefore will have to put off editing till another day. Thanks.Camelbinky (talk) 18:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Camelbinky: Sorry you feel that way about the notification, but keep in mind, it's a required part of the AN/I process, so please don't hold the fact that you were notified against anyone. Side note, BarkingFish admitted the "less than civil" nature of his comment, and offered himself up to whatever repercussions were deemed necessary. On that note, as you seem to be saying this is pretty much over and you "dont think BarkingFish needed to be reprimanded", I guess we can assume this AN/I thread is resolved and can be closed(?) Best, Robert R OBERT M FROM LI  TALK/CNTRB 19:44, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Pumpie
User:Pumpie is very productive, but his edits are mostly incomprehensible, irrelevant and/or incorrect. He has been warned about this repeatedly, and after he was blocked on 13 October, he promised to improve his edits. Well, they haven't. He doesn't respond to questions about where he got his information from, he doesn't correct his errors and he claims to be fluent in English and Greek, which he obviously isn't. See User talk:Pumpie for some examples. The errors I found in his latest creation, Gare de Montreuil-sur-Mer, edit summary "new - properly translated from the fr Wikipedia":
 * wrong station name in infobox (Gannes)
 * mistranslated French "par", which means "via"
 * the station did not open in 1846, probably this was copied from another station article
 * swapped entries in s-line template
 * the station is not on the line from Paris to Lille, probably this was copied from another station article
 * he always writes "the station are" instead of "the station is"
 * mistranslated French "commune", which doesn't mean "administrative unit" in this context, but "common"
 * broken external link

It's incredible that he can make so many errors in such a small article. I'm getting very tired of cleaning up after him. Obviously his knowledge of English and the languages he chooses to translate from (recently French and Greek) is not sufficient to be of any value. I doubt he checks his edits after he saves them, many errors are obvious to anyone who's remotely familiar with the subject. I think he should be blocked again. Markussep Talk 13:38, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Has he given a reason for not working on the Greek wiki? S.G.(GH) ping! 15:15, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Markussep. The community has given him years of forbearance, several warnings, lots of advice and multiple chances to shape up. Either he does not understand, or he doesn't want to understand. As for SGGH's question, from my interaction with him, I do not believe him to be a native Greek-speaker, as he claims. He has not given any indication that he actually can write in Greek, he constantly misunderstands Greek articles, misses the meaning and implications of terms/names/events that are an integral part of being Greek, etc. Constantine  ✍  15:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I've seen the block rationale from before, and also the unblock rationale which was made on some sort of understanding that Pumpie would shape up. This has perhaps not happened. This suggests the original indef should be reinstated. S.G.(GH) ping! 15:30, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd definitively support this. His record thus far leaves no hope that he will ever shape up. Constantine  ✍  15:39, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * As someone uninvolved with this editor, I would have to agree. I read over the RFC filed a while ago, and had meant to come back and comment there. This editor's talk page is a disaster, dating from 2004, and he/she appears to have learnt almost nothing about either Wikipedia editing, working within the community, or even simple issues of spelling, punctuation and grammar. Dozens of people have tried to improve Pumpie's editing, and I applaud those who have been following him/her around (some, it seems, for years), correcting their work, but it's unfair that they have to do so. Whether Pumpie has poor English skills, or they are copy-pasting machine translated articles from other languages, they've had more than enough warnings. From the recent messages on his/her talk page, he or she still seems to believe that Wikipedia has an unlimited number of translators awaiting the opportunity to do Pumpie's bidding and fix his/her errors. This is not the case. The block earlier this month does not seem to have had any effect, other than to encourage Pumpie to respond to concerns voiced by other editors; his editing has not changed in the slightest. I think there comes a point when an editor has been unable to correct their editing over such a significant period of time that we must rescind their invitation to edit. Unfortunately, I think, for Pumpie, that time has arrived. -- Kateshortforbob talk  16:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have reimposed the indef block, as it is clear that this editor is not capable of contributed constructively. Looie496 (talk) 19:05, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Concur; I was going to reimpose this afternoon, having reviewed the situation this morning. They're trying, but they don't get it well enough to participate positively.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:58, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Stalker Back
This guy is back again. See the contributions here. Since he has a user name, he presumably signed up using an e-mail address(?) Maybe that could be blocked, or his ISP notified(?)
 * Yes to the block, not to notifying his ISP Theresa Knott &#124; Sort that Knee! 16:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I suspect he's this guy, who previously [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive637#Gypsydog5150:_Threats_of_violence.2C_block_evasion.2C_sock_puppetry.2C_3RR.2C_vandalism..._and_other_abusive_behavior. threatened both me and an admin] who intervened. John2510 (talk) 14:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * He's back here too. The IP tracks to a Pittsburgh Verizon account... same as the "Gypsydog" edits.  John2510 (talk) 16:17, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * How do you know the IP is him? Theresa Knott &#124; Sort that Knee! 16:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Identical edits, adding back the same unsourced information, from two different individuals who are Verizon customers in Pittsburgh would be rather coincidental, though possible. John2510 (talk) 17:29, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes it looks as if you are right. What articles are we talking about here? Perhaps we should semi them all. Theresa Knott &#124; Sort that Knee! 17:44, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Various ones. It looks like he's going through my contribution list and just reverting whatever I do.  The best strategy may be for me to re-revert and report it here when it occurs and wait for him to get bored.  There was some discussion previously about banning a range of IP addresses.  That might be overkill, compared to dealing with it anecdotally.  Thanks.  John2510 (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I just sent an abuse report to Verizon. We don't need to respond passively to harassment of this kind. Looie496 (talk) 18:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks... I appreciate that very much. John2510 (talk) 18:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Um in the grand scheme of things reverting someone's edits on Wikipedia probably will not count as harassment to Verizon. I could be wrong though. Theresa Knott &#124; Sort that Knee! 19:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it's the threats that raise this to the level of serious abuse. Looie496 (talk) 19:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:RFC/MATH moved
The math science and technology RfC page has just been moved, from Requests for comment/Maths, science, and technology to Requests for comment/Mathematics, science, and technology. Unfortunately the the bot's not been told and has just refreshed the old page with the latest RFF/MATH content, overwriting the redirect that was created, which of course is missing the page history which is now at the moved page, which is also still the target of links.-- JohnBlackburne words<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">deeds 18:40, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yep, I moved the page for the reasons given in the summary, but after the move another issue arose that I wasn't competent to deal with (something about a linked category?), and also it seemed like only admins could do what was needed anyway. Maybe someone could help me out here. Thanks. <font color="DarkBlue">LemonMonday <font color="Orange"> Talk   18:47, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I've moved it back for now. -- zzuuzz (talk) 18:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Maybe you could look at the reason I tried to move it, and if you agree with it, I guess you could do a better job than I did. <font color="DarkBlue">LemonMonday <font color="Orange"> Talk   19:01, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd say, run it up the flagpole at Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment, and see if anyone salutes. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:05, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd also suggest having a word with the bot's owner. -- zzuuzz (talk) 19:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * OK thanks. I think it's best to take this elsewhere: it's more than a simple admin action I think.-- JohnBlackburne words<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">deeds 19:04, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Hullaballoo Wolfowitz
...apparently gets off on undoing my redirects. Can anyone explain to me how this is inappropriate as a redirect? Every time I redirect a stub, Hullaballoo swoops down and undoes it, calling it "inappropriate". Every time I've tried to discuss the issue he just removes my comments from his talk page. I discussed this before here and the discussion just went around in circles. In the past, Hullaballoo has insisted that I ALWAYS discuss redirects, which I honestly find quite pointless when wiping out a one-sentence article without any sources. There's nothing to discuss, for crying out loud. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 19:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Did you discuss this redirecting issue with him (which I suppose he removed, from what you've said)? If so, can you give a diff to that? Silver  seren C 19:37, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Check the bottom of his talk page. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 19:39, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, this is why. Never mind. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 19:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Just to note, I only see one mention of it. And also you got to give an editor a day or two to respond, they can't be on 24-7 for you. -- DQ  (t)  (e)  19:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Just so it's noted in the log, the talk was reverted and I am attempting to talk to the user now. -- DQ  (t)  (e)  20:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

User:Studiodan

 * Note the existence of Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Studiodan/draft material — Gavia immer (talk) 00:09, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Strictly for educational purposes, I recommend that everyone check out that guy's user page. A certain wikipedia policy is coming to mind, but I can't think of what it's called. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:14, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * User Page Guideline WP:FAKEARTICLE, I am actually tempted to through it into the main space its so well done. Either Way I saved a copy for my personal files The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 23:20, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I just feel sorry for the chap endlessly wanging his todger and never getting any satisfaction. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:22, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It's tragic. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc?carrots→ 23:27, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No_personal_attacks--Studiodan (talk) 23:33, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * What, on the poor chap's John Thomas? I should hope not. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:44, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok this takes the cake more than any of our lame jokes The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 02:22, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * What's funny about this exactly?--Studiodan (talk) 04:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "Circumfetishist"? That's even funnier than "Pro-circumcision Cabal". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:58, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I know it sounds strange, and I wasn't even aware such a sick fetish existed until a few years ago, after I learned about someone who edits here on Wikipedia, and has been doing so for over 4 years (I even have screencaps from circlist where he explained how he finds the act of circumcision erotic)... now he edits wiki articles related to circ. You have no idea who you've gotten involved with Bugs (regarding this particular circumfetishist I'm referring to. He's sick, as in need of help).--Studiodan (talk) 05:15, 28 October 2010 (UTC).
 * I could argue that there is equally an uncircumcision fetishist or two, especially the ones who use the term "cabal" - or maybe "obsessives" would be closer to the truth than "fetishists". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:30, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You can't say nobody told you. If you want to know who it is, it's not hard to find out... you have Google.--Studiodan (talk) 05:37, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't really care if someone is a circumfetishist or an uncircumfetishist. What I care about is ensuring that wikipedia reflects proper sourcing and isn't used as a vehicle for trying to achieve artificial notability and undue weight for fringe theories and viewpoints. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:43, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * You'll only find archived material there.--Studiodan (talk) 23:33, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Seriously, dude, it's not what a userpage is for. Please change it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 23:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Some of them just look so sad; like Eeyore, but not. Haploidavey (talk) 23:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Hate to Be a WP:DICK but does anyone else think WP:MFD might be appropriate here or let sleeping dogs lie? The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 01:14, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Considering the page's content, being a "dick" would be appropriate (:P) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 01:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The information there is draft, for temporary archival purposes, to copy and paste as needed. I've never had any intention of misleading anyone into thinking it's an article, and as far as I can tell, placing temporary draft material there is an accepted use of the user space. If you think it would be better to move it to another space, such as an archive page, I can do that.--Studiodan (talk) 01:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is accepted use, but NOT on the main userpage. See UP for assistance in creating a subpage where you can place the draft to work on it "unmolested".  Whose Your Guy (talk) 01:40, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I'll do just that.--Studiodan (talk) 01:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

A firmer policy knot: I see a potential problem ahead - this person is pointedly an SPA (a tip: just look at his contracisions... um, circumbutions), here to push a POV in the guise of "correcting" the pull of the "circumfetishists" circle, which means that his edits should be give a good hard look, so that anything that's not Kosher can be yanked. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:22, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Meh. I have always been uncomfortable with the SPA label.  If his actions are running afoul of WP:SOAPBOX, then fine, but lots of people have narrowly-defined interests and areas of expertise.  I'd prefer to see his behavior categorized as leading astray of Wikipedia policies, such as not being a vehicle for advocacy, per WP:NPOV or some such, rather than labeling him as an SPA or other label.  I don't know much about him outside of his behavior here at Wikipedia, so I'd like to focus the discussion on that behavior.  -- Jayron  32  05:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Um... a single purpose account can only be judged by their behavior on Wikipedia. What other evidence would we have access to?  And so far we have an announcement of a specific fringe viewpoint, and editing limited to articles related to that specific topic, so I think "SPA" is a perfectly legitimate label.  Whether he is, or will become, a disruptive SPA depends on his editing, which is why I suggested keeping his contributions under observation.  Right? Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * There have been a number of POV-pushers on this subject (assuming they're not just all one guy), and it's been going on for several years. The word "cabal" first appears in the Circumcision talk archives around 2006. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:30, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Admin attention needed

 * This particular user ID began last winter, and there is no question it's an SPA, as every bloody one of its edits is on this topic. Being an SPA is not against the rules as such. But they do bear watching. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * One thing I'm concerned about are the items he keeps saying in reference to, apparently, a specific wikipedia editor. Without naming the editor, he skirts the personal attack rules, or so he thinks. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:32, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * He actually quotes my surname in a Google search, in support of his claim of "circumfetishism". I have to say, I consider this a personal attack (and a BLP vio), and I'd be grateful if somebody else would delete it. Jakew (talk) 09:29, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

The user Studiodan's user page has internet links which "out" user Jakew as part of one of the more nakedly offensive personal attacks I've seen on wikipedia. I ask that administrators (1) REV-DEL all such references to Jakew; and (2) INDEF the user Studiodan and clear his user page. He's a user with a demonstrable, specific agenda that involves not just pushing a fringe viewpoint, but making offensive accusations against wikipedia editors. He has somehow flown under the radar for nearly a year, but he is massively over the line at this point. Another of his links is a count of everyone who has edited the circumcision page, as part of his attack campaign against Jakew. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:03, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I've reverted the page to the version between the fake article and the mission statement, and (I hope) revdeleted the versions with the links. I hope I've done it right. If his 'article' contained similar outing, I am happy to go back and delete the entire thing.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:49, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't blocked him, but I have warned him that any repeat will result in indef without warning. If other admins feel a block now would be better, be my guest. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Jakew told the whole of the planet what xyr name was back in 2005. A little less of the "outing" hysteria, please.  The name-calling and labelling of other editors stands as a problem without trying to pile other things on top of it.  Uncle G (talk) 12:11, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I am minded to consider blocking him, if he is using an editor's last name, that is outing, pure and simple. Elen, congrats on the promotion, although I opposed you.  Given the fact that many users tend to keep their identity private, any chink in that defense can be disastrous.  I would suggest that he be blocked.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:07, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * He is using a last name Jakew himself used. It isn't outing to use a name the person you are talking about revealed themselves. It might be disruptive, but otherwise Uncle G and Elen are right (although the rev deletion wasn't needed IMO). Prodego  <sup style="color:darkgreen;">talk  13:40, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know. In 2005?  That's the trouble.  If the user has guarded his privacy since, I think we should respect that.  Everyone has early mistakes on the wiki.  The intent is still the same in the case of Studiodan.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:57, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't make any secret of my name; it's still on my user page. I don't perceive any problem with my name being mentioned on WP, though I do take issue with the particular way it was used.  Jakew (talk) 14:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I revdeleted on a 'better safe than sorry' ticket, as if something does need removing, it's better to do it quickly. It was clearly disruptive anyway even if it didn't out the guy. Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:21, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, he started throwing around accusations of paedophilia, so he's currently indeffed (with another 2 revdeletes in his talkpage history) as per WP:Child protection. I have his talkpage on watch, as this may be the next thing to go if he keeps this up. However, should he achieve WP:CLUE, please feel free to unblock. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:45, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It's worth pointing out that this has also been largely (though not exclusively) Jakew's topic of interest since joining wikipedia nearly 6 years ago. He has only a couple of short blocks, early in his tenure. So if he has a conflict of interest in the matter, as the now-indef'd Studiodan alleged, then Studiodan needed to pursue proper channels rather than issuing offensive personal attacks on his user page and elsewhere. But 6 years is a long time to have been flying under the radar. If there really had been a significant problem with Jakew's editing approach, it seems like it would have caught up to him by now. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:59, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * An SPA that doesn't engage in tendentious edit warring isn't a problem, even if he is interested in a weird subject. I've told Studiodan what to do if he wants to take his allegations further - this does not include posting them on his talkpage.Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:40, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I've just revoked Studiodan's talkpage access - he wanted to pursue his allegations on his talkpage. <b style="color:#000">TFOW</b><b style="color:#A0070C">R</b> 22:18, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The editor wanted wikipedia to conduct an "investigation". Apparently he thinks wikipedia has a retainer with Dick Tracy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I kind of had the feeling he might. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:29, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Generally speaking the only way to get your point across with this type involves the use of a mallet... Half  Shadow  22:34, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That would be the followup device when the proverbial "cluestick" doesn't work. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

User:Oriel36
User:Oriel36 has been soapboxing WP:OR across Talk:Plate tectonics that has been highly disruptive, and this combined with his condescending tone makes it difficult to get work done there. On top of this, this user has a history of being problematic across Earth rotation topics in general because they do not accept the definition of the sidereal day. I would greatly appreciate that they be asked to step away until they are willing to collaboratively contribute to articles in a way that is consistent with Wikipedia policy.

Diffs and sections:
 * A whole bunch of discussion in which Oriel36 explains his hypothesis and insults us, and User:Chris.urs-o and I reply with a counterargument, then Oriel36 repeats their argument, then I give another counterargument, then they repeat it and call us stupid, and then I give another counterargument and become a wee bit testy.
 * Key quotes from User:Oriel36:
 * WP:OR: The equatorial speed of the fractured crust is a maximum 1037.5 miles an hour and there is not a single scientist who will affirm this most basic fact
 * More WP:OR: 'Sidereal time' reasoning is crude and causing havoc where the rotation of the Earth is required to explain geological effects and it is also a dumb conclusion that arose only in the late 17th century in attempting to usurp the actual principles which associate the steady progression of 24 hour days with steady rotation
 * ... and being insulting about that: So, if you want to express the Earth's rotation in any other value than the actual 15 degrees/1037.5 miles per hour at the Equator,and these values represent actual physical geology,then there is little reason to believe that the geography and geology of the planet is taken seriously.


 * Being tired of the WP:OR soapboxing, I say that I'll remove this thread per WP:TALK if it continues. And it does, with Oriel36 telling me I should start rewriting history.
 * So I follow through and remove it
 * Oriel 36 pointily removes an earlier reply I made to someone else that I thought was helpful
 * So I revert his change as vandalism; on doing that, I've decided that I've gotten too frustrated and step away from this.
 * Oriel36 restarts the discussion with a more helpful-looking comment, so I engage them, but they just call me an unimaginative suppressor of information per usual. Happily, the conversation ends here.
 * Until recent stuff and replies by User:Chris.urs-o after User:Oriel36 opened with a request framed as an insult. Here, Oriel36 says that the known viscosity of the mantle (extremely-well constrained via seismic waves and post-glacial rebound) is wrong.
 * And finally, from User talk:Oriel36, we can see clear evidence of plenty of conflicts with previous WP editors because of Oriel36's belief about Earth rotation across the entire history of the account.

It is clear to me that Oriel36 wants to push WP:OR releated to Plate Tectonics, and will tell us all that we're ignoring reality when we try to explain the real geodynamics to them. This is disruptive, especially when we're working on restructuring parts of the article. Could someone with oomph ask them to stop, please? Awickert (talk) 19:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I've just now given Oriel36 a direct warning and explanation of policy. If the problem continues please feel free to notify me and I'll follow with a block.  I note that the editor has received one previous block for a related problem as well as many warnings, so there is a clear history here. Looie496 (talk) 20:10, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much. I think that this will really help the group of us get going on figuring out how to improve the article, and am going to hat the most recent thread to get it out of the way. Awickert (talk) 20:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Warning on his talk page seconded. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:14, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * They made some (grossly wrong) personal attacks on me. I wished them the best, but I think they need to be shown the door. They don't seem to grasp any of the core tenets of this project. Awickert (talk) 22:41, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Reviewing the direction that their talk page discussion went, I have indeffed.
 * Any admin can unblock without prior consultation, if you are convinced that they have come to understand and will abide by NOR and 5P. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:44, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Incorrectly closed move request at Cambridge
The move request at Cambridge was closed by User:Born2cycle (so a non-admin close), despite it being a contentious debate and to my eyes without a clear consensus for a move – quite the opposite. I can't see a RM review so am posting here.-- JohnBlackburne words<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">deeds 08:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

It should also be noted that the user who closed the discussion was very strongly in favour of moves at Plymouth and Dover (making over 30 edits at the Plymouth discussion). This would be a problematic close even if they were an admin. Quantpole (talk) 08:57, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have removed a db-move tag which Born2cycle placed on Cambridge, so that the move shall not be implemented pending discussion here. JohnCD (talk) 09:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I also think someone entirely uninvolved in any of the related proposed renamings should close the discussion. Regardless of the result, which is clearly controversial, it needs to have the legitimacy of someone entirely uninvolved, so it cannot be challenged later purely on procedural grounds. MRSC (talk) 09:16, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Note, I have removed the closure formatting on the Cambridge move discussion added by Born2cycle based on the complaints on that page and this thread. I have avoided moving the page back myself as I have been involved in explaining why a move is not a poll (see diff) with the almost identical Plymouth move discussion. Considering Born2cycle's apparent confusion on how consensus is supposed to work, their conflict of interest and the fact that it is not a ballot, it seems quite inappropriate for them to close such a robustly discussed move request. Fæ (talk) 10:07, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * (EC) Concur - I'd hate to be the admin trying to straighten this out, but it is clearly a contentious move and needs a fresh set of eyes. Also, how long are these discussions typically held open for? I would have thought this one is still active, with new editors still commenting.


 * Several page move/disambiguation discussions have been started simultaneously. While they are all slightly different cases, it is useful to at least be aware of the others. For the record, we have Talk:Peterborough, Talk:Dover, Talk:Plymouth, Talk:Sydenham, Talk:Cornwall, Talk:Cambridge, Talk:York, Talk:East York and Talk:Lincoln (I may have missed others), and a discussion at the village pump. GyroMagician (talk) 10:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * It's completely inappropriate for Born2cycle to close any move discussions; much of his/her editing seems to be somewhat of a mission to move pages. pablo 10:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I've also re-targeted the redirect at Cambridge to Cambridge, Cambridgeshire, pending closure. It makes no sense to break wikilinks when it may not actually be necessary. (Depending how the admin closes it). Personally I'd read Born2cycle's closure statement as a !vote in the discussion.--Nilfanion (talk) 10:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, see also this which again is a non-admin closure of a discussion, with clearer consensus but for a different name to that which it was moved to. It seems Born2cycle has a very poor understanding of the move process and how decisions are arrived at.-- JohnBlackburne words<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">deeds 10:20, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I've moved the page back to Cambridge, as it appears that the discussion may not have been properly closed. I'll leave the question of a final close to someone else, though. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 12:21, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm reviewing the discussion and will close it shortly. --RegentsPark (talk) 13:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I welcome the review. For the WP:IAR-required good reason of trying to help with the backlog at WP:RM, several editors who are non-admins but knowledgeable in naming policy and experienced in these discussions and decisions have been ignoring the rule about non-admins avoiding controversial RM discussions to close quite a few contentious debates. To make up for it, I, for one, have tried to provide detailed reasoning in my closings, as I did in this one.  I've had one other closing challenged like this [1], and the reviewing admin approved[2] with the following note:


 * The issue of being a non-admin closing a contentious debate was not raised, and I've continued to try to follow this lead to "not fall victim to WP:ILIKEIT/WP:IDONTLIKEIT type arguments", including in this situation. --Born2cycle (talk) 14:30, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Decision to move back
I see that the discussion has now been closed "no consensus" with a decision based largely on the following assertion:
 * "Page hits (7) are not much use in this situation because, for all we know, every US city searcher might be typing Cambridge, Mass (or clicking on Cambridge, Mass when it shows up in the search result list)."

Page hit counts tell us how relatively popular all "competitors" for a given name are, regardless of how readers get there. For the most part, anything listed on the relevant dab page is a "competitor" for the name in question, and Cambridge, Massachusetts is clearly one of those "competitors" for "Cambridge". Just because some readers might type "Cambridge, Mass" (I wouldn't) to get to that article is no reason to discount its high page view count relative to its "competitor". Since we have no way of knowing what searchers might be typing to find any topic, this reasoning invalidates how almost every primary topic decision I've ever seen has been made.

I agree that Cambridge, Cambridgeshire might not be the ideal new location, but, as I noted in my closing, no other alternative was discussed in the original discussion. I suggest that that discussion should be held separately, but a need for a better alternative is no reason to leave this article at Cambridge. --Born2cycle (talk) 16:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Similarly surely, the need for a better alternative is no reason to move it. pablo 19:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Of course the need for a better alternative is not a reason to move it. The reason to move is that it is not the primary topic for "Cambridge". Cambridge, Cambridgeshire might not be as good a place for it as "Cambridge", but almost every use of every term that is not the primary use of that term is in the same boat.  If that were a reason to not move articles then almost no move from a better name because there is no primary topic for that name would be justified. The guideline for disambiguating cities in England says to "use ceremonial or administrative divisions wherever it is possible"; moving this page to Cambridge, Cambridgeshire is fully in compliance with that and every other policy and guideline that applies to this situation.  Yet this move was reversed, partially because, apparently, the name specifically indicated by guideline was not good enough.  --Born2cycle (talk) 22:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Isn't an appeal like this forum shopping?
Also, one big question... was there anything wrong I did in my closing? What is the basis for the reversal? I followed the reasoning and explained the error I see in it above, but what I didn't see was an evaluation of my reasoning, or how I might have made an error. I know in the court system for an appeal to reverse the decision of a lower court, some error has to have have occurred at the lower level, and I think there is good reason for that. Otherwise, any non-admin controversial decision can be appealed for no reason other than forum shopping. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * There shouldn't be any "non-admin controversial decision", so the problem shouldn't arise. WP:RMCI says:
 * "Non-administrators should restrict themselves to:


 * Unanimous or nearly unanimous discussions after a full listing period (seven days);


 * Where there is no contentious debate among participants; ... "


 * David Biddulph (talk) 17:32, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If I thought an admin had closed it wrongly I would have asked them first, but as it was a non-admin closure I had two reasons for bringing it here. I felt it needed an admin to look at the closure and review it, as it was a closure that should only have been done by an admin. And more practically it would probably require admin tools to undo the move and tidy up afterwards, if that were required. So not forum shopping, just asking for help from editors with the authority and tools to properly review the closure.-- JohnBlackburne words<sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">deeds 21:29, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no issue with you requesting the review of my closure via this ANI. My issue was with how the review was apparently done. First, the reviewing admin apparently did not review my closure reasoning at all, but instead simply evaluated the discussion from scratch. My point is that if challenges to decisions (of admins or non-admins) don't review the decision but simply re-evaluate from scratch, the effect of that is to encourage using the challenge process as a kind of forum shopping.  That is, any time one doesn't like the outcome of a decision, you can apparently simply challenge it to get a second opinion.  There is a big difference between reviewing a decision previously made and deciding whether a significant error was made or not, or making the decision anew without regard to the soundness of the previous decision.  I suggest appeals courts in the "real world" do the former for very good fundamental reasons that have to do with human nature and so apply here too. Second, if this decision has any kind of precedent-setting effect, by ruling that page view counts have limited utility, I suggest it removes the ability of anyone to make a decision about primary topic in most similar situations. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:18, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If you wanted to make your opinion known then you should have done so in the discussion rather than closing it. There are two reasons why this has been reviewed - firstly it was a non-admin closure of a contentious debate and secondly you were clearly involved in other very similar discussions. If either of those situations occur in the future I would expect the closure to be reviewed. To avoid this happening again is quite simple: don't perform non-admin closures of contentious discussions and don't close discussions where you are clearly not impartial. Really, I would stop complaining about this because it is you who has caused all the problems, not anyone else. Asserting that your incorrect close should be viewed as some sort of super-vote is ridiculous. Quantpole (talk) 00:29, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Not complaining, just trying to understand what I did wrong. So any close by a non-admin of a contentious WP:RM discussion, at least when that non-admin is involved in "very similar discussions" is incorrect and should therefore be reversed and re-evaluated anew?  Shall I file an ANI for every such "incorrect" close that occurred in, say, the last year?  Or shall I do that only in the cases where I disagree with the outcome, hoping to get a reversal?   --Born2cycle (talk) 03:10, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * A closure of a move request by a non-admin is not automatically wrong, but is more liable to be appealed on the basis that the correct procedure wasn't followed. Now you may argue IAR all rules at this point but in this case you also don't appear to be able to evaluate consensus very well and are clearly not impartial with respect to British settlements. If you can find other requested move closures which also had so much wrong with them then I would suggest bringing them here or relisting at WP:RM. Quantpole (talk) 13:18, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Just adding a few words of approval for B2C's actions - clearly they're not exactly in accordance with the "rules" about non-admin closes, but that's not necessarily a bad thing - there was a huge backlog at WP:RM some time ago, which has now been brought down to quite reasonable proportions partly thanks to helping out by non-admins like B2C (and myself, a bit, though I've tended to be rather less bold). I don't necessarily agree with all the decisions, but the same would be true about closures performed by an admin, and after all nothing is irreversible (particularly when we're just moving articles about rather than deleting them). To return the suggestion he made to me a while ago - perhaps he should consider becoming an admin, to reduce the controversy associated with his closures?--Kotniski (talk) 07:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't really think being an admin would have made this closure any better. The non-admin thing isn't a big deal to me. However, the closer needs to be seen as impartial. To use the legal analogy, if evidence came to light at appeal that the trial judge was not impartial, that technicality might be enough to overturn a conviction or force a retrial (depending on the jurisdiction); it might also result in disciplinary action against the trial judge. In this case it was closed in agreement with his POV. This sums it up to me, replace "Plymouth" with "Cambridge". The two discussions are very similar, with significant overlap in contributors using similar arguments. I count 13 (of ~24) of those support/oppose comments on Cambridge have also commented on the Plymouth move - which is an indication of how strongly related they are. Participating in one discussion whilst simultaneously closing another which involves much the same arguments from much the same people is clearly incorrect.--Nilfanion (talk) 10:14, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Plymouth

 * Would anyone like to close the similar discussion at Talk:Plymouth? <font color="#BB133E" face="Tahoma">DC  <font color="#002664" face="Tahoma">T •<font color="#002664" face="Tahoma">C   14:42, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Queen Anne
I request an independent review of the closure of Talk:Queen Anne by the same user using similar arguments to those used on the Cambridge move. Fæ (talk) 15:33, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. Since multiple reviews by admins have occurred of this non-admin decision in a contentious discussion, would anyone please care to review both my close (now hidden) and the new close of the discussion initially raised here? Thanks. Talk:Cambridge,_Cambridgeshire. --Born2cycle (talk) 03:20, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Reviewed. And I endorse the close.--Scott Mac 16:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for doing that. Not sure if it is normal or appropriate but it might be handy to add your endorsement to the discussion to avoid any further challenge. Fæ (talk) 16:07, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Might not be a bad idea. Add my endorsement as well if you wish. <b style="color:navy;">NW</b> ( Talk ) 17:18, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It should be noted that on further review Born2cycle's close has been changed by Scott Mac so that the article is now at Anne, Queen of Great Britain. Quantpole (talk) 08:10, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Queen Victoria
I'm slightly loath to bring this one up since I actually agree with the result, but again there did not appear to be consensus for this requested move. Quantpole (talk) 15:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I suggest there are two definitions of "consensus" that are often conflated:
 * The "consensus" of those participating as determined by giving equal weight to every "vote".
 * The "consensus" as determined by evaluating the arguments and assigning weight according to how well each argument is in concert with the consensus of the Wikipedia community at large as reflected in policy, guidelines and conventions.
 * I try to make my closing decisions per (2) sometimes conflicts with (1), and concede that was the situation in this case. --Born2cycle (talk) 16:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Was closing Cambridge at all a bad idea?
The discussion should be reopened. Per WP:RM, if there's no consensus after a week, you don't close, you keep it open for awhile until you get consensus. Also, people have forgotten that this is NOTAVOTE...if you have better policy but fewer votes, you still have a better argument <font face="Verdana"><font color="#3A003A">Pur <font color="#800080">ple <font color="#991C99">back <font color="#CC33CC">pack 89    17:17, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Procedural question on Sockpuppetry
What should I do if I find an account with highly suspicious behavior, (in this case, an SPA trying to delete a page.) It screams sockpuppet, but I have no idea as to who. As far as I am aware of, I can't file a sock request if I only have on user (per they don't do digging.) The user in question is User:Poetry Truth Justice. Now I know that by posting here, the probability that this will spiral out of control is high, so please, just answer the question so I know what to do in the future and don't have to take these things here. As for admin action, I really don't care if you do it here or have me file this somewhere else, so long as I have an answer. Thanks, Sven Manguard  <sub style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><b style="color:black;">Talk</b>  01:57, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * What should you do in the future? I suggest you assume that they are trying to improve the encyclopedia until you have actual evidence to the contrary, stop calling them an SPA, and (if interested) discuss the benefits/costs of deleting the article on its merits.  It is not, by itself, "suspicious behavior" to create an account in order to nominate an article for deletion; it's more or less required, since IP editors can't create the AFD page themselves. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:10, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Sven, I see no problem with the deletion nomination. I have no opinion or comment on whether or not it should be deleted, but the nomination does not appear to be sock related or in any other way bad faith. In future instances, I would recommend searching the MO of the editor in question and seeing what other editors it is significantly like. For example, if User:A nominates Article X for deletion with a snarky manner on the basis that the article is bias and fights back furiously when editors oppose the deletion, and three other editors have done the same thing with regards to Article X, then you might have reason to suspect those four accounts are related. Is something similar the case here? <b style="color:#009900;">Ks0stm</b> (T•C•G) 02:32, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I looked it over again, and I now realize it probably wasn't as bad as I thought it was. I thought that he nominated the article both times, which would have been a different case entirely. Let's resolve the case and move on. Sven Manguard  <sub style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><b style="color:black;">Talk</b>  02:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

4chan/other forum-based attack?


There may be other articles, but these are the ones I've seen hit so far. Various IPs, mostly 111.etc, have been hitting these articles, adding that the listed songs above(of course not including groups who made them) are 'a favorite of James Bond in Goldeneye', or that they were used in Dr. No, etc. Others have reverted this as it has became apparent it is vandalism, but can't something more be done? A range block? Semi protection?— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus <font color="Green">Contribs 21:43, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I would think semi-protection would be easier (prevent all the IPs), but don't the 4chan threads die off rather quick? WP:RBI might be the simplest solution. Hazardous Matt (talk) 21:49, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably not enough activity to merit protection, but I'll keep an eye on them. Let me know if any more crop up. OhNo itsJamie Talk 21:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It's started again. I've pinged you as requested on your talk page.  A range block may be the only possibility here, as the article range is expanding.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus <font color="Green">Contribs 11:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

User:Juve10
Should i request a check for socket puppet with ip check for the user and block from to create new account? The user problem is simple. His article is far below basic standard: full of wrong information. May be my English is suck made him stopped using the current account, but i just request him to cleanup his old suck (instead of stub) before to create new mess.


 * He wrote every Juventus and Catania with peacock words: "impressive" "good performance".
 * And once created fake stats for the player. That player in the real world failed to play regularly with one 1 game, he wrote he is impressive with 20+ game, and not a single case.
 * Lack of inline citation for transfer fee he claimed, sometimes an inappropriate external link. He provided http://www.juventus.com as reference, O which page?

He claimed these is not serious mistake, and told me used a wrong source (but he never provided inside the article) or even had a good external link http://www.tuttocalciatori.net, he still "create" some fake stats, which the external link provided self-conflicted with his content.

Assume good faith, assuming he IS NOT intent to promote his players, i just request him to improve his article but no reply. But seems he had a new account and look like editing Alessandria/created article for some alessandria footballer. But should i open an request or any other way to solve? Matthew_hk <font color="Blue">t  c  02:26, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll look into this in a moment, but as a small note, the term is sock puppet. As in the puppets made out of socks you put on your hands.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus <font color="Green">Contribs 04:28, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you please link to the article in question?— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus <font color="Green">Contribs 04:53, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, it is not civil to call his work suck. It may be a competence issue, but there is no need to make fun of it.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus <font color="Green">Contribs 04:54, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Some other i had i find. The most recent creation is in June 2010 and i asked him to cleanup his old article

Matthew_hk <font color="Blue">t  c  06:38, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Deleted
 * Deleted
 * Deleted
 * Deleted


 * Just like this one, Dario Campagna, he never made a research and often wrote he likely to be loan out from Juventus but in fact he already left Juventus some time ago. Matthew_hk  <font color="Blue">t  c  07:06, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Matthew_hk <font color="Blue">t  c  07:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Matthew, why do you think Juve 10is a sock(et) puppet? Rather than just a writer of bad articles. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:53, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Block threats for disagreement on style
There is a long standing disagreement between editors over the style of the article Gadsby:_Champion_of_Youth, in particular over whether the article should be written as a lipogram. I understand that some editors have strong views that such a style is not correct for WP but the talk page history shows that may editors have supported this style. Whilst I fully accept that admins should step in to prevent edit warring and other disruptive behaviours I do not thing that they should take sides in the argument and threaten those who support a lipogram with blocks. Unfortunately Fut.Perf. has recently placed this warning notice on the talk page, banning further discussion of the topic:

"Participants in the discussion should be aware that any argument based on the premise that the "lipogram" quality of the title should be preserved is self-evidently contrary to policy and therefore will be ignored in the closing of this discussion. Editors who persistently push for such arguments contrary to policy may be blocked for disruption " Martin Hogbin (talk) 12:25, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I fail to see the problem here. Writing the article as a lipogram is both contrary to MOS in general, as well as the concept that we should write accessibly. → ROUX   ₪  12:29, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This guy has repeatedly been told that this is a settled matter. The article was unreadable and contained many fictions and half-truths generated to avoid using the letter "e." It was pure self-indulgent wankery, with no regard to writing a clear, accessible encyclopedia article. It's just disruption at this point, and edits to degrade the article into a lipogram should appropriately lead to blocks.Bali ultimate (talk) 12:35, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * A lipogram is not a "style of English". It is an artificial constraint that an author imposes on himself (and on the reader). No such constraints are appropriate on an encyclopaedia which aims to be usable and accessible.


 * Lipogramatic versions of this article were well-nigh unreadable, and contained inaccuracies. The history of this sorry article contains such ridiculous conceits as removing the 'edit' sections, using 'Anglic-group' to mean 'English language', using "aught-six" to mean the year 1906, and more seriously, changing the names of people - including the author.


 * There is no more reason or sense in writing this article as a lipogram than there would be in writing the article on Shakespeare as a sonnet, randomising the article on Schrödinger's cat so that it deletes itself 50% of the times it is clicked on, or writing the article on the Mona Lisa in the form of an oil painting. Fut. Perf. is correct that attempts do do so are disruption. pablo 12:38, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Fully agree with the stance Fut Perf is taking on this. There's been quite enough fooling around already and that one editor continues to use the same ridiculous affected manner at the talk page and at the previous ANI report amounts to trolling, clear and plain. CIreland (talk) 12:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Also fully agree with Pablo and Bali, this is a no brainer. Future Perfect is entirely correct. S.G.(GH) ping! 12:56, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Immediate block for WP:DISRUPT should OP attempt this line of editing ever again across Wikipedia. ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 12:57, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not a disagreement on style. It's a forceful end to silliness. --Onorem♠Dil 13:00, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

We just had a discussion about this on AN/I only a few days ago; there is no way on earth that the article itself will ever be written in this style. This has apparently been a long-simmering issue on that article, and IMO it is log overdue for an "enough is enough" stance, hence the appropriate warning now at the top of the talk page. Tarc (talk) 13:03, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Or a page notice. Is this not what they are for? I have added one. S.G.(GH) ping! 13:21, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Thoroughly support Fut.Perf.'s actions. --John (talk) 14:11, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I guess that is it then, we are all to to do and think as we are told. Martin Hogbin (talk) 14:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:CONSENSUS on 3 million+ articles is to write them in English, with all 26 letters (plus some borrowed from other languages where required). If you want to invent an encyclopedia all in lipograms, fill your boots - just not here. ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 15:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No dispute on style, just certain editors being very disruptive without the slighest concern to learn even the most basic reasons why.  Grsz 11  14:44, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree completely with FP. Martin, this decision isn't saying "we are all to to do and think as we are told." It's saying we should all use all of the letters available in the English language to make a coherent encyclopedia entry. If you want to rewrite this article as some sort of writing challenge, feel free to do so on a blog somewhere. Here on WP, we've already bought all the vowels, and we're not afraid to use them. Dayewalker (talk) 15:19, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I just read through the archives of the talk page for this article. Never, not even in my days dealing with the Macedonia stuff, have I seen such persistent IDIDNTHEARTHAT as I saw from those who wanted this article as a lipogram. No matter how many people spoke against it, they'd repeatedly go on with the same arguments and the justifications and ignore all reasons given why the lipogram wasn't acceptable. It's time to be done with this. Eventually, beating the dead horse is disruptive, as it wears away the patience of those discussing with the horse-beaters. It is indeed time for blocks if this continues. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 15:23, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

There are two issues here. I think this is over, article is moved, lipogramming has been judged no-go and Bali has done a superb job rescuing it back to decent prose. --Errant[tmorton166] $(chat!)$ 15:57, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That writing the article as a lipogram is such a divergence from the normal policy (i.e. of clarity and relative uniformity) that it is not something that could be done on a single article level. It would require much wider community input and thus would be denied on the (correct) grounds it would open the flood gates for even more of such "one off" article styles. Disagreeing with this, in itself, is not a bad thing or block-able offence
 * Then there is the issue of not understanding or ignoring the above limitation and consistently/disruptively continuing the argument after it has been judged a non-starter by the wider community (which it has been, here at AN/I). It is this latter issue that FP was warning about, and rightly so.
 * I disagree: there is one last step needed before closing this thread. Any objections to taking Fut. Perf.'s admonition (which is quoted at the beginning of this thread) & putting it in a box at the beginning of the Talk page of this article? This disagreement over how to write the article has gone on for years, & because some people think writing an article about Gadsby as a lipogram is a good idea, & don't care that many readers are not in on the joke that Gadsby is a lipogram, without a visible warning this squabble might otherwise continue for even more years. I just read thru the talk page, & only after determined searching was I able to find Fut. Perf.'s very appropriate words. -- llywrch (talk) 16:34, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * There is now an edit notice in a big orange box whenever you try to edit the article anyway, telling you not to do it. S.G.(GH) ping! 16:56, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Just adding myself to the general consensus here that any further attempts to get local consensus for writing an article in lipogramme style rather than going the proper (and futile) route of working towards a project-wide agreement that such special styles are generally OK, is disruptive and should lead to warnings and then blocks. Hans Adler 17:11, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I NOMINATE FOR WP:LAME as this is the most WP:LAMEST and silliest dispute ever The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 20:03, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you please rephrase that comment as a lipogram? Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It's an obvious violation of our policy on silly disputations and unworthy variations from our common goals- put it down in our log of such actions. TN <b style="color:midnightblue; font-size:larger;">X</b> Man  21:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I wish to say that I am full of admiration for Tnxman's lipogrammatic ability (Although, Tnxman, your sig contains an... you know what) . But upon trying my own hand at it, I think it is not as difficult a task as I first thought. If a law is laid out that, going forward, all ANI posts shall consist only of lipograms, this board would not contain so much vitriol -  too much work to fight.--Floqunbam (talk) 22:20, 28 Octobr 2010 (UTC)
 * I count 8 occurrences of "e" just on the cover. I understand the author followed up with a book containing only the letter e. That was a screechy read, though. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:42, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Aradic-es
IP's of indef blocked user Aradic-es continue to vandalize articles. I've given him a chance to explain himself but rather than address the situation at his talkpage he "revenge edits" other articles because of my revert. This Bosnian Croat/Herzegovinian Croat situation is the same thing that got him indef blocked in the first place. 

Should the affected articles be requested to be protected or is a range block in order? -- ◅PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 12:57, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Basically, WP:Commonname rule can be apllied to Croats but not to Bosniaks??--78.2.159.114 (talk) 14:13, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * We aren't discussing article titles but if you wish the "Croats of Bosnia and Herzegovina" article can also be brought into this.


 * List of Aradic-es (hopping) ips:
 * 78.2.136.189
 * 78.3.78.115
 * 78.3.66.132
 * 78.2.159.114
 * 78.2.172.136
 * 78.1.116.102
 * 78.1.124.164


 * It appears he's been busy canvassing as well. -- ◅PRODUCER  ( TALK ) 15:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That would be a very large rangeblock to cover all of them. Doable but not sure we would want to. JodyBtalk 16:22, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That would be a /14 block. It would require at least 2 separate rangeblocks to accomplish it and would affect over 250,000 addresses. We need to find a better way. JodyBtalk 16:29, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:RBI + whack-a-mole? - F ASTILY  <font color="#4B0082">(T ALK ) 18:49, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Legal threat on my talk page
Can someone please deal with this:. I have deleted it from my visible talk page. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 17:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * . Looks like a pretty blatant attempt to use a legal threat to prevent a deletion. I would have thought it would have been easier - and cheaper - to simply contest the proposed deletion, but different strokes for different folks... Does this make me too?! <b style="color:#000">TFOW</b><b style="color:#A0070C">R</b> 17:56, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Could you please RevDel that under CFRD #3? &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 18:01, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, do we have to? I'd almost rather leave it for the amusement value. :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * My lawyer is meaner than his lawyer. I keep him chained up in a shed and feed him raw meat and babies to keep him mean. Half  Shadow  18:12, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

No further posts should be made to this thread. No administrator should take any further action regarding this matter or consider unblocking this editor without consulting me. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:13, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh that's no fun, I'm sure we could raise his eleventy-billion dollars by suppertime. Tarc (talk) 18:27, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh no Tarc - you made a further post in this thread! That was naughty! DuncanHill (talk) 18:32, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Why? What happens if we post in this thread? – iridescent  18:51, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh shit, not 1080 million dollards! --Golbez (talk) 18:58, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * REVDEL completed per WP:REVDEL "It does not matter whether the privacy breaching material was posted by the user themselves or by a third party, whether in good or bad faith, recently or in the past, whether accurate, whether the target is identifiable to the administrator, nor whether it is a statement, pointed speculation, or implied." - err on side of caution to use revdel. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:09, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Stop it
It is unprofessional and brings Wikipedia into disrepute to taunt indefinitely blocked users. Stop it. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:01, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

OTRS
Ticket 2010102910009177 is related to this for those who have access. Chase me ladies, I&#39;m the Cavalry (talk) 19:12, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Could whoever is handling this matter kindly e-mail me. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Will do. &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Son of the Defender  20:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Legal threat at Jason Ross (actor)
This editor, claiming to be the subject of Jason Ross (actor), has edited the article to contain what may be perceived of as a legal threat as per WP:LEGAL. (See here .) In the process, s/he also removed the template directing editors to the article’s deletion discussion located here. With this edit, I reverted the article to its state prior to this editor’s edits. The phrase containing the possible legal threat is as follows:"…[T]his page has been comprised. I am the subject of this listing, and have had this article about myself, a current actor on UK television, US and Australian television, modified without consent. This matter is currently with my attorneys due to restriction of trade and potential libel of the person concerned. The offender has been asked to desist his constant, incorrect edits. But when you are a telelvision personality and you have someone who knows you personally, attack your listing, you have to protect your name and corporate identity. As an international actor, journalist and documentary maker my name is everything to me, so any attempt to discredit it will be dealth with directly, and without hesitation."Thanks! — <font color="#DC143C" face="Garamond" size="3">Spike <font color="#000000" face="Garamond" size="3">Toronto  06:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)  UPDATE : There is also a legal threat made by the same editor at the article’s deletion discussion, which reads as follows:"This is Jason Ross and I find the above comment offensive in the extreme. I am an international actor and television journalist, currently starring on BBC telelvision in the UK, am on TV in Australia in 3 states, and debuted on TV in the USA in September 2010. Please desist from your petty attacks or I will take further action. Wikipedia have been very helpful in identifying the identity of the person above and I thank them for their help, the matter is now with my lawyers. Some people never learn until lawyers are involved - again! So sad... God bless.."Thanks! — <font color="#DC143C" face="Garamond" size="3">Spike <font color="#000000" face="Garamond" size="3">Toronto  06:45, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Based on the user's name, language, and method of posting, I say it screams vandal, and I doubt this is Ross, or anyone connected to him. Permablock user for legal threats and move on. Sven Manguard  <sub style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><b style="color:black;">Talk</b>  06:41, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * ✅ blocked per WP:NLT. -- Jayron  32  06:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * As the likely target of the legal threat (I removed unreferenced info and nominated the article for AfD), can I ask why I wasn't informed about the threat or this incident report? Can I also be assured that "Wikipedia have been very helpful in identifying the identity of the person above" did not happen? Surely my edits were within reason and within policy and any requests by this user should be ignored.  The-Pope (talk) 07:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * As Sven Manguard said, this is most likely a vandal. So "Wikipedia have been very helpful in identifying the identity of the person above" is nonsense, as Wikipedia doesn't give out personal information of its editors to anyone. Goodvac  (<font color="Blue">talk ) 08:41, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * ...except in accordance with relevant policy. I make no representation in this instance (and have no knowledge that would enable me to do so), but this is a high-traffic page, and I think it's important to point out that there is a specific privacy policy that covers this. Frank  |  talk  09:24, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I am sorry Pope that these threats have distressed you, as they would any of us being so targeted. As for the legal threat itself, since you have edited the wikiarticle, and you nominated it for deletion, chances are you have both of them watchlisted, and would read one or both of the legal threats yourself. Moreover, of all the editors to the article, how was one to determine that you were the target of the threat? I, for one, wasn’t sure who was being targeted. Finally, the instruction to persons filing a report at ANI is:"You must notify any user that you discuss."Quite simply, my filing did not discuss you: It discussed the individual making the threat. Again, sorry that this happened; but, thankfully, Jayron has taken care of it as per WP:LEGAL. Thanks! — <font color="#DC143C" face="Garamond" size="3">Spike <font color="#000000" face="Garamond" size="3">Toronto  18:58, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

No longer resolved. Editor now evading block by continuing to edit as IP 220.244.38.140. (See here .) While the editor has redacted his legal threat at the deletion discussion, he has failed to request an unblock at his talk page, as he was instructed to do. Perhaps, then, the IP address should also be blocked as per WP:EVADE. Thanks! — <font color="#DC143C" face="Garamond" size="3">Spike <font color="#000000" face="Garamond" size="3">Toronto  16:05, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * IP has redacted legal threat - no-one told him what they wanted him to do was to say on his talk page that he wasn't going to sue, so he may have figured this was what he was meant to do. No reason to block IP just for that, only if they go on editing. Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:25, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * He was told that he was blocked and told in the block message from the blocking Admin that he had to redact the legal threat and request unblock. Also, careful review of the diff provided shows that he did not just redact his legal threat (diff shows a range of edits by the IP). He also added content to the deletion discussion. That is block evasion. When one is blocked one is not permitted to edit from an IP. Block evasion is block evasion. Thus, with all due respect Elen, your suggestion carves out an exception to the block evasion rules I have never seen before. The purpose of blocking his IP is to permit him to edit only his talk page, whereby he can request unblock and get his privileges back. — <font color="#DC143C" face="Garamond" size="3">Spike <font color="#000000" face="Garamond" size="3">Toronto  18:11, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I have now blocked the IP for 72 hours for block evasion. When I looked, he'd only made that one edit (either that or I looked wrong) but he's evidently kept going - sorry about that, usually I'm better at spotting when it's going to go down like this. Looks like this may be an IP he uses regularly, so worth keeping an eye on when this block expires.Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:18, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks Elen. He may have a static IP address since I notice that there are no other edits to WP from the IP. (Of course, he just may be the first person ever (dynamically) assigned that IP who’s edited Wikipedia!) What I do not understand is, especially since this is most likely the same IP from which he was using his registered account, why did autoblock not catch the post-block attempt at editing? This is the passage from WP:AUTOBLOCK that made me think it would:"When a blocked user attempts to edit the site, the IP from which they are editing is 'autoblocked,' so that they may not make the same edit anonymously or under a different user name."Mind you, elsewhere I read that autoblocks only last for 24 hours … I think I’ve read that right. Thanks! — <font color="#DC143C" face="Garamond" size="3">Spike <font color="#000000" face="Garamond" size="3">Toronto  20:22, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * IP edited the Jason Ross article in Feb 2009 - seems an awful coincidence to me. I'm beginning to think autoblock no longer works the way it is supposed to work, as I have now several times come across a blocked user who seems to be still using the same IP to edit logged out. Either that, or I don't understand how its supposed to work. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:42, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * If the user stops logging in the autoblock will never hit again. Eventually they figure that out.  In that case, the underlying IP needs to be manually blocked, if they're a persistent problem.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:00, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks Elen and GWH! I’m going to mark resolved. Thanks again! — <font color="#DC143C" face="Garamond" size="3">Spike <font color="#000000" face="Garamond" size="3">Toronto  04:54, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Heim theory
User Mathsci is refusing to discuss his reversions on Heim theory (see diff here) and is removing posts from his talk page when alerted on his behavior (see these diffs here, here, and here). I think that third-party conflict resolution and perhaps some form of protection on this article would be helpful so that the edit warring will cease...- Novus Orator 06:18, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I've stopped editing this article until further notice because of a personal strong history of contentious editing (with ANI alerts) and the need for an investigation to be completely non-biased. I would appreciate if a neutral third party that does not include the editors (or admins) involved with this article's history look into it...-- Novus Orator 06:29, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * [signature "Novus Orator"]
 * (former account)

The editing by these accounts has been discussed on multiple occasions here on WP:ANI by multiple editors. Terra Novus has been warned about his editing patterns in physics articles by multiple editors, including editors involved in WikiProject Physics. The main problem over multiple articles and wikilinks is edits made to suggest UNDULY that Heim theory is now considered to be part of mainstream physics. Each time that it is explained to TN that that is not the case, TN makes an apology with a promise to reform, briefly desists, but then reappears a few days later with identical edits, demanding that previous discussions be repeated. That is simply disruption. For a week now there has been a thread at WP:FTN on Heim theory, started by. There suggested that the editing of Terra Novus should come under discussion once more here. Since TN appeared to be on a break from editing, we let that drop. But then he resumed the same type of editing today. He made two reverts on Heim theory, reversed by and then by me, and then a revert on one of the main physics templates Template:Beyond the Standard Model, reversed by me. He now describes that as an "edit war" and demands page protection. The correct place for either of those requests would have been at one or both of the noticeboards WP:3RR or WP:RPP.

At this stage, after gathering links to previous discussions (including the lengthy pararaphs of advice that left on his user talk page), the discussion of an indefinite topic ban on physics articles, templates and their talk pages, broadly construed, seems unfortunately to be the only next step forward. Mathsci (talk) 06:59, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Nope. Normal content dispute should be addressed thhrough a normal process progression. No sign of anything here which would not be better addressed by other noticeboards, to be sure. For example, one of the bones of contention was whether Google Scholar shows any hits on the theory - indeed the article used to assert "not covered in Google Scholar".  That assertion was then used to justify further setting the topic as exceedingly fringe.  Alas, that claim was wrong, and so I suggest that this entire desire to mark what is admittedly not the "mainstream" view as being totally off-the-wall is not justified on WP policy grounds (claims based on false claims in an article must be re-examined at the least).   In short - asking for "topic bans" is a serious matter -- one which should not be discussed until after RFCs within the article talk page as a minimum, to get outside opinions on the content dispute. Collect (talk) 08:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * By the way, editors are allowed to remove notices from their user talk pages. The removal of material from one's own user talk page is not germane to any complaint. Collect (talk) 08:18, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * @Collect, true, but it usually isn't seen in good taste when a notice involves behavior by the user involved...-- Novus Orator 08:22, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I would ask that the editors look into the history of the following accounts before they act so quickly...My starting complaint on these users still stands...-- Novus Orator 08:22, 29 October 2010 (UTC) I think that (in this case) I am constructively editing. I do have a (rather long) history of struggling with editing certain areas of Wikipedia, but I think that I quick look at my history will reveal that I have abandoned editing large areas of Wikipedia (such as Creation-Evolution related articles) and have been willing to take Wikibreaks even when it wasn't totally clear whose fault a conflict was. Several of the other editors may not like my information, but I believe it complies with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. I am frustrated that certain editors are complaining about contentious editing when they are unwilling to discuss the matter involved...-- Novus Orator 08:22, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

The right-hand column in this diff from a previous ANI should, imo, be read in its entirety by anyone who wants to understand what's going on here, and who is unfamiliar the user who brought this to ANI. It includes, in effect, the user's mission statement for editing Wikipedia, and a declaration that he can't both be true to that and continue to edit the encyclopedia. This was the reason he gave for his (three-day) "retirement", and it's followed by a very illuminating response by user Mann jess. The following is also from that diff, and was also written by Mann jess:

"I would really love to see you contribute positively Gniniv. I really would... but after all I've tried, I see no way that's going to happen. Dozens of editors have worked with you for extended periods of time to help you adjust, and your behavior has only gotten worse. This new trend of opening mediation requests as soon as your edits get reverted is beyond disruptive."

There's no merit to the complaint made in this post by Gniniv/Terra Novus, none at all, and it should not have been brought here. – <font face="Cambria"> OhioStandard (talk) 08:36, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think that my past history has anything to do with the current issue. I think the real problem that this exposes was a past misunderstanding of WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE on my part in the articles I struggled to contribute on. The community was not ready for me to add a alternative perspective, so I was asked to move on. I am not editing contentiously on this article (currently), and  am trying to reach a consensus. Instead, all I get is a complaint that I am acting like I used to and no discussion. I have a right to bring this objection to an article.-- Novus Orator  08:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec) There have already been discussions on the talk page of Heim theory about it being far from the mainstream: they do not have to be repeated. There consensus is that Heim theory has not been accepted within mainstream physics because, outside a group of two or three followers, some retired, there has been no reaction at all in the scientific literature or textbooks to this theory. On the other hand there have been a number of reports or comments on the problematic editing of Gniniv/Terra Novus on this noticeboard and elsewhere:
 * Fringe_theories/Noticeboard
 * Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive638
 * Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive642
 * Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive644
 * Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive642
 * Ohiostandard is far more familiar with this user than me.  Mathsci (talk) 08:55, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I suggest that editors look at those links to see the issue of POV pushing I mentioned above. These editors seem to think that something is fringe despite refusing to offer proof of this claim (Especially in the Fringe theory noticeboard).-- Novus Orator 09:00, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Mathsci is probably right that I'm more familiar with TN's editing than he is. Here's some documentation of the ongoing problem that Mathsci probably wasn't aware of:


 * Requests_for_mediation/Genesis_Creation_Narrative
 * User_talk:Raeky/Archives/2010/July
 * Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2010-09-12/Bigfoot
 * Wikipedia_talk:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2010-09-12/Bigfoot


 * The second and fourth links document a precipitous "rush to the boards" made in the first and the third, respectively, just as we have in this present thread, imo. – <font face="Cambria"> OhioStandard  (talk) 11:32, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Although he says he's dropped editing in "large areas of Wikipedia (such as Creation-Evolution related articles)" he has in fact continued to edit in that specific area, eg Ken Ham, Out-of-place artifact, and it is my opinion that his edit at UDFy-38135539, reverted here with the comment "(Reverted Terra Novus' Young Earth Creationism "neutrality" edit. Material was not in source.)" was an example of the sort of edit he would have been banned for earlier if he hadn't kept making promises to reform. His move of Climate change denial to Criticism of Climate Change led to discussion of his actions here which should be read to give more context to this discussion. Dougweller (talk) 09:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Admittedly, those were slip-ups. I think that my earliest history (on Objections to Evolution for example) has been totally left behind. This is a working progress, I am going to make mistakes, but I think that I am getting less tendentious in my edits...-- Novus Orator 09:10, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Dougweller is talking here about very recent edits on your second WP:CLEANSTART account which were clearly contentious. It's not a very good idea to misrepresent the edits of yourself or others in this thread. You made a frivolous ANI request by posting here. Just recently you made this posting, which you thought better of a bit later. Why did you accuse me of "the fallacy of scientific moralism" [your redlink] for suggesting that articles on wikipedia are written or their notability assessed using reliable secondary soures? Please calm down. Mathsci (talk) 09:30, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Now thats something I agree with. I will be taking a wikibreak until further notice. Good day...-- Novus Orator 09:32, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I am another user who has reverted some of the "see also" links pointing to Heim theory. If User:Terra Novus is reinstating these after other editors revert them, it's a behavior problem (editing against consensus), not a content dispute, as the reversions were made after discussion among WikiProject Physics editors (most recently at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Physics). I brought this up with TN at User talk:Terra Novus (diff), and from reports given above, other editors have also been trying to solve this via discussion.


 * Regarding Google hits for publications, this has already been discussed extensively at WT:PHYS, which may be useful for context. The thread is now archived, at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Physics/Archive September 2010. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 09:37, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for providing a link to that discussion. Terra Nova has explicitly stated above, "These editors seem to think that something is fringe despite refusing to offer proof of this claim (Especially in the Fringe theory noticeboard)." That shows a lack of understanding of wikipedia editing policies, in the light of the discussion you linked to and similar discussions on the article talk page. In addition this edit  does not inspire any confidence that his behaviour is likely to improve, even after his very recently announced  wikibreak. Mathsci (talk) 10:05, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * He's made that announcement before. He takes a break, then comes back and sooner or later, usually sooner, we see nothing has changed. Perhaps we should set some conditions he has to follow when he returns. Dougweller (talk) 10:26, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec)It's not really clear enough to me what the problems exactly are, such that possible solutions can be identified. I think an WP:RFC/U would be helpful at this point to clear that up. Rd232 talk 10:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Any particular reason he should be allowed to return? I don't see him as a net-positive for the project, and we have no obligation to allow people to edit here who have shown themselves to be disruptive and unable to follow our policies. I'd be interested if someone would point out what contributions of his have improved the encyclopedia. Beyond My Ken (talk) 10:32, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I would say, "no". I'm really sorry to have to agree that TN is a net negative to the project. He's unfailingly civil in his interactions, and I get the impression that he's probably very good company in real life. But when policy violations are called to his attention he repeatedly says he understands, even agrees, promises to refrain, promises to avoid controversial articles, and then goes back to the same old behavior in a day or two.
 * I think Rd232 is right that it will probably require an RFC/U before this user can be banned, or perhaps even indef blocked. Given the tremendous amount of time so many people have had to put in already to address Gniniv/TN's editing, though, it hardly seems fair. I wish I had time to do it myself, actually, but I just don't. Knowing how very slow I am at anything remotely administrative, it would probably take me days. But an RFC/U would certainly be helpful at this point, if anyone is able to undertake the task. Since the behavior remains the same, and since multiple users in the ANI thread that prompted his "retirement" as Gniniv were calling for a ban, and because that "retirement" truncated the discussion, I think it would be appropriate to inform those users of any RFC/U that is initiated. – <font face="Cambria"> OhioStandard  (talk) 12:39, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. You are probably the right person to start the RfC/U. Mathsci (talk) 14:22, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd certify an RFC/U but, as I wrote just above, I can't spend the time to draft one right now even though I'd like to. All the necessary links are here for anyone who can find the time to proceed. – <font face="Cambria"> OhioStandard  (talk) 15:10, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * (Apologies for the glitch or misclick that mangled my first attempt at responding). Short version: Endorse RFC/U, but suggest that, rather than banning, further WP:DR followed by (if necessary) a topic ban would be appropriate. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 18:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Blocked
I have blocked Terra Novus for 1 week for disruptive editing. The job of admins is to assist editors in creating and maintaining articles. If we force them to jump through one hoop after another in order to get help, we are not doing our job. Looie496 (talk) 18:33, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you Looie496 for your "cut the knot" approach. We can think about an RFC/U in a month or two if the problematic behavior resumes (as it has in the past). Johnuniq (talk) 03:09, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Range block requested
Over the course of the past week, I have been dealing with vandalism to a handful of pages that I have been working on for the past two years. For whatever reason, an individual in the Philippines has been changing the premiere, finale, etc. dates of various related television series and films. The articles hit are as follows: While the first IPs used ( & ) is on a different block than the other IPs, I believe that it will help by blocking the range that the following IPs use for an extended period of time will be more efficient than developing an edit filter (the edits are not the same on various pages) and semiprotecting some of these pages will — Ryūlóng (<font color="Gold">竜龙 ) 01:49, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The Irving Literary Society (Cornell University) - bit of a mess
Following User:Racepacket's recent move of The Irving Literary Society (Cornell University) to Cornell literary societies and subsequent editing, User:Cmagha has cut and pasted the original version of that article to The Irving Literary Society and in the process removed all the edit history as well as creating an unattributed content fork. Also, Talk:The Irving Literary Society (Cornell University)/Archive 1 was not moved when Talk: The Irving Literary Society (Cornell University) was moved to Talk:Cornell literary societies and is now stranded, although I've added a link to it at the newly titled talk page.

I then contacted Cirt because he was the administrator who handled the original restoration of the article after this deletion review, if nothing else to merge the page history of Cornell literary societies to the fork The Irving Literary Society. Although, that's only one aspect of this tangle. However, he suggested that the issue should probably be dealt with here. I will notify User:Racepacket and User:Cmagha of this discussion as well as the talk pages of the relevant articles. Voceditenore (talk) 09:31, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The problem is that almost all of the sources deal with a group of four of the student literary societies that existed at Cornell from 1868 to 1888. The sources cited indicate that the Irving (a coeducational literary society that included members from a variety of fraternities) held its last known meeting on May 23, 1887.  A current undergraduate fraternity claims (without sources) that the Irving was "absorbed" into that male-only fraternity and that its membership has continued over the years as being co-extensive with the fraternity.  They have incorporated a link to The Irving Literary Society (Cornell University) into their website used for rushing and member recruitment.  I cannot find any secondary sources to support this claim or the continuation of The Irving as a registered student organization.


 * To fix up the article to reflect what the sources say (e.g., a discussion of a number of co-equal literary societies) I moved it to Cornell literary societies and changed the phrases "The Iriving and its peers" to "the literary societies". I have also found a number of WP:SYN, WP:OR and mischaracterization of sources problems, which I am trying to fix.  As for the latest step, which is User:Cmagha restarted the Irving-centered article at The Irving Literary Society, there are problem because WP:ORG provides "Individual chapters, divisions, departments, and other sub-units of notable organizations are only rarely notable enough to warrant a separate article." So, absent a sourced connection to the Irving, the present-day local fraternity would not justify a separate article.  I suggest that we place a notice on WikiProject Cornell, and mobilize an effort to improve the Cornell literary societies article and perhaps start an AFD on the latest content fork.  I only became aware of this problem yesterday, and was not aware of Talk:The Irving Literary Society (Cornell University)/Archive 1.  A would appreciate any technical help in correcting any mistakes made in the move.  Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 12:59, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I heard from two of the other editors after the title was changed; was somewhat confusing. There is room for both concepts, Racepacket's idea of a general article, and one on the Irving.  The Irving article has been through review twice, the original AfD and then the petition to restore under deletion review.  What has been harder to understand is the perceived animosity (language such as 'outrageous') and the persistance of the opposition to the article, despite some excellent help along the way.  As Racepacket indentifies questions re: factual citations, the editors will address.--Cmagha (talk) 13:12, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, this is a perfect example of how deletion review is not perfect. At a glance the article looks well crafted, and I think it was for this reason it passed an AFD review. The editors didn't actually take the time to read the sources for the article carefully and compare them with the wiki article. The article should never have been allowed to be recreated. It's chalk full of original research, misconstrued sources, peacockery, and inflated claims that have no supportig evidence. The main editor who contributed to the article has a clear conflict of interest and has repeatedly reverted and or ignored the advice of multiple experienced wikipedians who have tried to point out wiki policy regaurding original research, verifiabilty, etc. Those of us who supported deletion in the first two AFDs got tired of arguing and didn't participate in the deletion review process. If anything the re-created article is worse than the ones that got deleted before. Sigh.4meter4 (talk) 13:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ouch. I didn't learn how to revert until someone asked me to help with vandalism about a month ago, so that looks a little dubious, above.  When compared to the original, this article does look spiffy, in part because of the great, if not somewhat tonal, coaching.--Cmagha (talk) 00:46, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't blame the deletion review process per se. As poor as the "revised" article was (and still is in its current fork), it probably did have sufficient sources to minimally establish notability, at least for the mid-19th century Irving Literary Society at Cornell. Notability is the only remit of deletion discussions and reviews. They are not concerned with content and style issues unless there are BLP or copyright concerns. Content and style issues and COI concerns need to be addressed through ordinary editing. But whether there is eventually one article or two, the current title of the fork The Irving Literary Society is not suitable and should be moved back to The Irving Literary Society (Cornell University). As was pointed out at AfD: The Irving Literary Society, there are multiple distinct Irving Literary Societies in the US, several of which are more notable than this one, have a longer history, and are still in existence. Voceditenore (talk) 13:56, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I have moved and relinked the article Talk:The Irving Literary Society (Cornell University)/Archive 1. I have tagged the article The Irving Literary Society.  However, "don't bite the newbies" can only go so far.  I am a bit troubled by the apparent meatpuppet relationship between Cmagha and at least Coldplay3332. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 12:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * So this is resolved? We can just concentrate on improving both articles, Cornell literary societies and the Irving Literary Society?  By the way, Coldplay3332 and Cmagha are very different people.  No meat; no sock.--Cmagha (talk) 18:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * No it's not resolved. The original request to administrators here has nothing to do with content disputes, it was simply: 1. that someone repair the wholesale cut and paste you made from another article or advise on how to make proper attribution in this case 2. that the fork The Irving Literary Society be moved back to its original title, The Irving Literary Society (Cornell University), over the redirect. Only an administrator can do that. Voceditenore (talk) 23:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I have supplied the required attribution per WP:Copying within Wikipedia. Flatscan (talk) 04:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * As previously reported at ANI, it is again raining sockpuppets/meatpuppets on this issue. The accounts that appear to be now involved are: User:Cmagha, User:Wehatweet, User:Coldplay3332 and User:Lebowski 666. There are still behavioral issues involving tendentious editing, misuse of sources, POV, synthesis and COI of a chronic nature. Racepacket (talk) 10:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Funny, I just created Sockpuppet investigations/Cmagha. Good to see it wasn't just me having this concern.4meter4 (talk) 02:10, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Many thanks to Flatscan for fixing the attribution problem. How about Voceditenore's other concern that we've gone back from The_Irving_Literary_Society_(Cornell_University) to The Irving Literary Society after the cut and paste. Please note, WP:TITLE says, "Do not place definite or indefinite articles (the, a and an) at the beginning of titles unless they are part of a proper name (e.g. The Old Man and the Sea) or will otherwise change the meaning (e.g. The Crown)." Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 02:06, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Most of the problem has now been resolved because a number of accounts were blocked by an Administrator at Sockpuppet_investigations/Cmagha/Archive Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 16:04, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * It seems to be those accounts that got the article restored, see Articles for deletion/The Irving Literary Society (2nd nomination). Dougweller (talk) 17:13, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Although User:Cmagha was permanently blocked, a new User:IndtAithir has registered. His user page states: Rolodex

And he has copied an earlier version of the Irving article into his talk page. Racepacket (talk) 11:01, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Risker, a wise sachem.
 * DGG, a wise sachem.
 * Cmagha, R.I.P. (my old boss)
 * Daniel P. Meyer, the guy I want to work for !
 * Apparently, the accounts were now unblocked because they claim to be co-workers who share the same IP address. This leaves the editing behavioral problems unaddressed. Racepacket (talk) 17:30, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment I think this might be usefully marked as resolved, in the sense that this is no longer an 'incident' requiring immediate admin intervention. The closing admin at Articles for deletion/The Irving Literary Society (2nd nomination) has been asked to also sort out naming issues and article histories, if the article is kept. The five previously blocked editors have been unblocked following a further checkuser and all have been strongly urged by an administrator to follow this guidance. Hopefully they will. After I left this note, the new user promptly removed the article from their talk page. By the way, I see that the user hadn't been notified of this discussion. I've remedied that. Voceditenore (talk) 18:13, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I had not seen your welcome message because it was deleted, so I also left a message which was also delete. Racepacket (talk) 02:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes I noticed.;-) But welcome messages apart, if you mention any user by name at AN/I, you also have to notify them of that. Voceditenore (talk) 09:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

User:Winchester2313
Regarding :
 * 1) User 's history long precedes my recent interactions with him, but I have been watching his interactions with other editors. It is only when our paths have now crossed as editors in a number of talk pages and articles, that his problematic and negative attitude to WP:CONSENSUS, WP:CIVIL and WP:OWN have hit me directly, all while he spouts various WP policies to defend his essentially indefensible behavior.
 * 2) User has in the past been requested to stop edit warring, see: (a) User talk:Winchester2313; (b) User talk:Winchester2313; (c) adding defamatory stuff User talk:Winchester2313, (d) requested to stop blanking,  vandalizing pages and personal attacks at User talk:Winchester2313 and has been requested a few times on other talk pages to stop his intimidating behavior on several pages that he violates WP:OWN, WP:CIVIL and WP:HARASSMENT when editing.
 * 3) At Talk:Elazar Shach he has displayed crude and ruthless behavior, name calling against editors who disagree with him. He has intimated that he is WP:OUTING as he taunts them "Now be nice Yonoson (or is it 'Rabbi' Rosenblum...)", that he's a "a brainwashed robot" (violating WP:NPA), as he directs his attack against User naming him as Jonathan Rosenblum.
 * 4) He attacks subjects of articles: as a "blatant liar" and accuses others who point out his faults as "desperate lies" (violating WP:NPA).
 * 5) I have also asked him to clarify his user name, see User talk:Winchester2313.
 * 6) In the past there was a case against pro-Chabad POV editors who swoop in on subjects their movement dislikes, not to mention control their "own" articles, and create havoc by attacking and harassing editors who disagree with them. At that time the case was brought against 4 pro-Chabad POV editors who are now not as active (one was blocked subsequently, two are not as active), but where they have left off User:Winchester2313 has picked up the cudgels.
 * 7) In the past case ArbCom left the door open that "Arbitration/Requests/Case/Chabad movement/Proposed decision: "Chabad movement...if user-conduct problems worsen, then a request to reopen this case may be filed."
 * 8) I have repeatedly asked him to stop his confrontational behavior and to engage in good faith discussions, see User talk:Winchester2313; User talk:Winchester2313; and most recently stop his vandalism User talk:Winchester2313 but his favorite weapon is to ignore my pleas and to keep on reverting.
 * 9) He is conducting an edit WP:WAR at the Yitzchok Hutner article, not allowing me to add references and citations (see the diffs of my work that was in progress on citations         there are a few more) while he blanket reverts them all in the process violating WP:3RR, and hurls accusations, as he has done at other editors in the past in the hope of intimidating them away. He has already reverted the Yitzchok Hutner article 4 times     in 24 hours with blanket reversals in utter violation of WP:3RR that destroy my good work and ignoring pleas to talk at Talk:Yitzchok Hutner.
 * 10) While at this time User:Wincheste2313 is one of the most pro-Chabad POV editors who is very active, there are in fact a few more editors like this who pop in and out, almost never creating full identities on their user pages, who are blatant pro-Chabad POV editors who use all forms of WP:LAWYERING to harass other editors away from articles they wish to edit their way.
 * 11) This is a very troubling development and I again wish to bring to the attention of the community the inherent threat to Wikipedia's open editorial style when such one-issue POV editors work in a loose federation and confederation to impose their will and drive out others they deem as their foes who disagree with them. In this regard see the serious threats that Wikipedia has confronted at the: (1) TM case; (2) Scientology case; (3) LaRouche case; (4) CAMERA case as well as at the (5) Chabad case, that are all related and must be seen as similar dangers to Wikipedia's editorial independence.
 * 12) User:Winchester2313 must be sanctioned for his own mounting violations. Wikipidia is not fair game to editors working from only one point of view. Thank you. Most sincerely, IZAK (talk) 16:55, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Please notify the user. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 17:02, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * User notified. Favonian (talk) 17:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Also by me . Thanks, IZAK (talk) 17:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

USER:IZAK has in fact been relentlessly accusing both myself and various other editors of some type of ongoing 'Chabad' conspiracy for some time, and which is blatantly untrue. I do not act in concert with any other editors, and while I've only been on Wiki for a relatively short time, have (and continue to) tried to learn the rules well and adhere to them. To a conspiracy buff like IZAK, this becomes WP:LAWYERING, as if removing unsourced and highly contestable material, as I've done at Yitzchok Hutner is wrong.

More recently, User:IZAK has resorted to repeatedly threatening me (and others) on various pages, while continuing his allegations of 'Chabad POV', as if that were some type of crime?! Some recent examples include  where he continues to allege a Chabad-conspiracy (despite there never having been any strife between Chabad and Breslov ?!!), and where he relentlessly lobs insults/accusations like: 1. "something you should be acutely aware of as a member of Chabad that worships a dead rabbi and sees nothing wrong with that as continuing the dynasty of a deceased ruler, regardless of who his predecessors were." IZAK (talk) 14:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC) 2. "but that does not mean that when pro-Chabad POV editors start getting involved in articles outside of purely Chabad topics, such as you have done by downgrading and in a great sense also demeaning historical rivals to the Chabad movement," 3."What I said was that pro-Chabad POV editors have taken it on themselves to attack articles about targets they hate, and that includes the article about Berger. Please do not twist my words, and enough of going around in circles". IZAK (talk) 04:48, 4 October 2010 (UTC) 4. "There are so many various splits in the Hasidic world, just see the dozens in Template:Hasidic dynasties that it would be impossible, absurd and reckless for one or two basically pro-Chabad POV editors to decide who and what is or is not a Hasidic dynasty in the world and history of Chasidus at large."IZAK (talk) 06:42, 7 October 2010 (UTC 5."Let's get this straight, the issue is not Chabad which deserves and gets lots of WP:NPOV from me and other editors, the issue here is the proven pro-Chabad POV editors who need to exert utmost care when entering a domain that has potential WP:COI with the subject matter at hand, since it has been proven again and again that when a controversial topic intersects with so-called Chabad party lines, then proven pro-Chabad POV editors such as yourself, Yehoishophot and Winchester jump in and often create a WP:WAR, when if they just stepped back, and at least focused on the pure Chabad topics it would be more understandable and productive for them and the rest of WP. IZAK (talk) 05:31, 8 October 2010 (UTC) 6."Why do you just wish to keep on fighting and quite obviously violate WP:CIVIL yet again? There are better ways to be productive, try devoting serious time to improving as many articles in your supposed realm of expertise at Category:Chabad-Lubavitch Hasidism and not running and rushing to attack subjects and editors you don't like." IZAK (talk) 00:43, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Also see where again, accusations of a Chabad conspiracy are inserted by IZAK to derail a discussion as we are informed that;

"You fellows start the problems yourselves, so you only have yourselves to blame. Stop acting innocent. Stop harassing editors and edit warring at the Rav Shach-type articles and any topic that Chabad deems to be "enemies of Chabad"! For example, even though Orthodox editors do not agree with Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism you do NOT find them spending time attacking them and their notable people, as Chabad editors do with their "hate list" topics. It becomes very tiresome, and I must warn you that in the past when such behavior, with clear evidence of group editing taking place, that sooner or later the entire group will face the music. This is not just my imgination or prejudice talking, but please take a long hard look at what happened over the years with the: (1) Transcendental Meditation movement case; (2) Scientology case; (3) Lyndon LaRouche case; (4) CAMERA case and why the (5) Chabad movement case  is similar and came dangerously close (for you) of serious measures against you. If you persist in your violations and threats and harassments with your pro-Chabad POV edit warring, you will leave me no choice but to reopen the case against you as you create an environment of hostility and insults that makes it impossible for other non-Chabad editors to tangle with you out of fear and the sheer drudgery of having to put up with your constant mischief making. I have a very simple word of advice for you, just remember, all the time, that Wikipedia is NOT Chabad.org!" IZAK (talk) 06:47, 24 October 2010 (UTC) and then that; "Well at least you agree with me and prove my point with the abominable way User Winchester2313 (talk · contribs) is carrying on right now. I am always open to reason. You make a big error when you falsely accuse me of "anti-Chabad POV conspiracy theories" because (a) it's not a "theory", and (b) I am not "anti-Chabad" and (c) the way it has worked over time is that pro-Chabad editors do work in tandem..."IZAK (talk) 10:31, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

It should again be noted, that the subject matter of this latest tirade had no connection to Chabad at all, and merely highlights User:IZAK's ongoing war against his imaginary opponents.

He then takes to threatening me with "more formal actions" if I don't "mend my ways" further accusations of sock-puppetry followed by more threats  and.

I have tried to respond to User:IZAK's issues directly, but he seems determined to force-feed his agenda and edit-warring unabated. Requests for WP:SOURCE and WP:VERIFY are simply met with accusations of WP:LAWYERING !! Upon informing User:IZAK of my intention to file a complaint regarding his behavior his response has simply been to co-opt me with this spurious action. Winchester2313 (talk) 18:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you Winchester2313 for your response. I thank you also for the liberal quotes of my warnings, that you obviously at no point took to heart. Your POV agenda is evident even to a blind man. I have no problem with providing any sources, I have been an editor since 2002. That is not the issue. The problem is that you deploy "slash and burn" tactics when encountering editors who disagree with you. Your points about all the other Hasidic groups is an obfuscation and utter red herring argument. None of them do what the pro-Chabad POV editors get away with. For example in the Yitzchok Hutner article : First I try to add in material. Then Winchester swoops in and blanket reverts . He says he'd like "sources." I work on improving the article based on links to other Wikipedia articles, he still reverts everything again . Then I try again by adding more material and while working on sources, all very good, Winchester blanket reverts everything yet again . I try to add sources and improve the article and he reverts it all again as I tried to put the material in with sources to improve the article and I ask Winchester to take it to talk. He refuses to talk and Winchester reverts everything 4 times violating WP:3RR. Then  out of the blue, Winchester decides to talk about stuff he has reverted that is not in his version of the article. So if he cuts it out, Winchester has the best of both worlds, he cuts and demands talk after the fact, like a surgeon who wants to discuss how well he has done amputations. That is not the way it works. Material is included and then discussed, requests can and should be made for sources, but not with hot air threats in violation of WP:CIVIL, everything is NOT chopped out in bulk by blanket reverts and then put on the butcher block for "discussions" for me to "defend" while Winchester holds on to his revert button and has already cut everything he does not like out. He is acting like a literal gatekeeper violating WP:OWN as he frazzles those he disagrees with by abuse of WP:LAWYERING and WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT and WP:DONOTDEMOLISH, not to mention his lack of WP:CIVIL and WP:E. It is pointless to debate with an automatic habitual reverter now, (a) because I don't like edit wars (I hate them as I am sure most normal people do to avoid confrontations) and so I avoid them like the plague!, and (b) because Winchester has slashed the material he disputes, a lot of it, out of this article so the discussion is hypothetical, it's not about what should be in the article, it's about what Winchester decides should go into the article since by inclination and habit I am an inclusionist, and (c) the deeper ramifications of Winchester's antics are now in question that need to be dealt with. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 19:02, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Either the rules WP:VERIFY and WP:SOURCE apply to User:IZAK the same way as to everybody else, or they don't. Which is it ? Why do you demand the right to insert controversial information without sources, and then complain when you force an edit war? Winchester2313 (talk) 19:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * For the record, you already had this discussion about it, see Talk:Yitzchok Hutner and the information about Hutner's positions against Chabad was sourced a long time ago, so don't attribute this to me. IZAK (talk) 19:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

And for the record, I have never removed a single credibly sourced statement from this or other articles. In fact, I spend a great deal of time adding references and citations to most articles I edit. The material you mention was restored with sources and I never edited it again. Speculation doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Winchester2313 (talk) 20:02, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Winchester2313: The following diffs         (there a few more that show I was working very hard to make them accurate) prove beyond a doubt that I was working dilligently on providing sources at the Yitzchok Hutner article, and that instead of joining my pleas to you to join in WP:CIVIL discussions multiple times, instead you chose to violate WP:AGF, WP:OWN, WP:NOTCENSORED, WP:3RR amounting to one huge load of WP:HARASSMENT for which you, in addition to your past violations like this with other editors over the last year, you should be censured as the admins see fit. IZAK (talk) 06:14, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I apologize for my sloppy linkwork in my response above - this is a first for me and I'm just learning how to use the [diff]s etc. I'd appreciate any help if anybody can clean my above post up.... Winchester2313 (talk) 19:03, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Regarding some of your other claims, I never 'outed' anybody, in fact it was another user who broached that idea and I merely went with the line of questioning, as it did seem strange that the blog and most of the suspect information linked to it (and dumped here) were authored by.....Yonoson Rosenblum' !!! Winchester2313 (talk) 20:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Winchester2313: So you admit to doing it. The other guy didn't "broach" it, he did it and you joined him wholeheartedly with the same explicit intention and wording "Now be nice Yonoson (or is it 'Rabbi' Rosenblum...)", and you attacked him that he's a "a brainwashed robot" (violating WP:NPA), as you direct your attack against User naming and hence outing him as "Jonathan Rosenblum" who happens to be a well-known respectable living person. This just proves my point about pro-Chabad POV editors working in tandem to gang up and devalue and crush a hardworking editor (at Talk:Elazar Shach) who was making good faith efforts and you mercilessly joined in in cutting him off at the knees. You should be apologizing instead of affirming and confirming your violation of WP:OUTING. Here are the names and diffs of the others you joined in with  violates WP:OUTING  attacks him and violates WPLIBEL against this notable living person with his own WP article, and insults: "Removed impossible lie".  accuses an editor of "ignorant rants" and joins the WP:OUTING spree: . But they have not been as active and as vehement as you have been for almost one year now. IZAK (talk) 05:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I simply find it unbelievable how Izak turns every single discussion, no matter how unrelated, into an opportunity to dig up yet again his obsessive anti-Chabad POV bias and his wild and absurd accusations of conspiracy in his critique of other editors, thereby violating NPA, WP:OWN, WP:CIVIL, WP:NOTBATTLEFIELD, WP:NOTSOAPBOX, WP:HARASSMENT, and of course AGF. It's amazing how he can't stick to the issue of the article at hand, no matter what it is, when someone he perceives as having a Chabad POV is involved. Really, a case should have been brought against HIM here a long time ago. As for Winchester; I think he has many good arguments, but he's lacking somewhat in wiki etiquette, as he's clearly still learning the ropes here; remember BITE. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 22:15, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yehoishophot. No need to come here because of sour grapes. I am being very specific about Winchester2313's impossible behavior. Way before he met me, he was warned multiple times by at least two admins in the past that he faces a block for his constant WP:WARRING, and I have actually noted that lately you have been quite calm. But since you have come here to blindly add fuel to the fire, I will note for the record that I am not making things up. Your own pro-Chabad POV editing was made crystal clear at Yehoishophot Oliver's pro-Chabad POV editing and diffs (until January 2010) (yes, you will deny it, but they are all your edits) so it is absolutely incredible that you claim that somehow it is "me" that is the problem, when any articles in Category:Jews and Judaism that pro-Chabad POV editors swoop in on become automatic battlegrounds with automatic harassment of non-Chabad editors with the aim of driving them away (there are quite a few already, and I will not go into all that at this time), and if anyone complains you have the bad habit of taking on the role of "innocent victim". Your attempts at spinmeistering on behalf of Winchester2313's blatant violations will not work. He must face up to the consequences of his brutal and merciless methods that his own record reveals. IZAK (talk) 03:42, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You made uncivil AGF-violating accusations based on your obsessive anti-Chabad agenda, which was amply proven there through various references to nasty comments you made on talk pages violating NPA, WP:OWN, WP:CIVIL, WP:NOTBATTLEFIELD, WP:NOTSOAPBOX, and AGF. As for your diffs of my edits, I justified my edits, and you never bothered responding to my response, instead repeating the diffs over and over, as if I had never responded. And it's really outrageous how you, the same one who brought the case, insist that your arguments were proven so clearly. You think you're the witness, judge, jury, and executioner. In any case, as I said, I don't support all of Winchester's methods, but it is YOU who needs to quit violating the rules of wikipedia to promote YOUR POV agenda. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 05:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yehoishophot: Utter nonsense and your argument is a total red herring. And it's good you agree with me about "Winchester's methods", which is the main point in this ANI situation, but you can't resist taking pot shots at me, that have nothing to do with the price of tea in China! Feel free to throw in the kitchen sink, but I have repeatedly proven my points with diffs, and the ArbCom saw fit to sit up and take note. You got off lightly, but do not take it as a green light for continued pro-Chabad POV editing, and that is why you have been warned by them. I adhere to WP:NPOV and I suggest that you should too. Why do you fight so hard to deny your pro-Chabad POV agenda and think that no one will notice or care? Think it over. IZAK (talk) 16:58, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Like I said, the reason I commented here was my specific objection to your tendency, expressed here too, to turn everything into a chance to promote your proven anti-Chabad POV agenda, thus violating all the rules I list above, instead of sticking to the relevant issues like everyone else. If you would not have brought that element in, then my main point here would be BITE. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 20:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yehoishophot: We are going around in circles. This is not a one-dimensional issue because Winchester2313 has repeatedly deliberately and specifically inserted himself into topics that involve/d controversies and personalities that run against the official Chabad party line. He is obsessed with the Rav Elazar Shach and Rav Yitzchok Hutner articles because they are famous Litvish rosh yeshivas who made open criticisms of Chabad and its Rebbe, so Winchester23113 appoints himself as the pro-Chabad POV editorial "hit-man" (for lack of a better description) to degrade and make the articles and editors who do not agree with Winchester2313's POV into literal garbage. Just see the way he edits and comments, long before I interacted with him he was being warned to stop on his talk page. You know he's wrong. He was doing that for almost a year, way before I called on him to control himself. The fact that you come here to defend him with lame excuses also shows that you will automatically defend a pro-Chabad POV warrior because Winchester2313 has been on WP for almost one year in his current user name and knows the rules well-enough not to attack editors who disagree with his POV edits and attacks. I am only concerned with WP:NPOV, that all sides to a topic be heard in articles. My record of almost 8 years on WP proves that! My edit history proves this. But again, this has nothing to do with the present complaint because your red herring argument is just a smokescreen distraction for Winchesster2313 to hide under and not have to deal with and change his problematic behavior that even you admit is not acceptable. IZAK (talk) 18:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If you think we're going around in circles, why do you repeat yourself yet again? I'm not interested in doing that. I've made my critique of you clear above. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 3:57 pm, 8 November 2010, last Monday (3 days ago) (UTC+13)

Comment
It seems that both editors here are operating on the principle that the more complaints you pile up, the better your case. That isn't how it works. When you mix small complaints or spurious complaints in with important complaints, it makes the important complaints harder to recognize. Bottom line: the arguments by both editors here are so complex and incoherent that it is nearly impossible for an uninvolved editor to figure out whether there is anything here that justifies action. Looie496 (talk) 19:38, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree. Have tried to follow the discussion.  Although IANAA, I do like to monitor discussions here and offer helpful comments and suggestions when I can.  What these two editors have submitted is ripe for a big TL;DR.  Saebvn (talk) 19:56, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Holy TL;DR batman. With so much discussion going on there's no room for any admin action! ;P You two both seem to be mature, intelligent people.. both of your arguments have been heard and are noted.. what say we just put this whole issue to rest now and move on to other things? -- &oelig; &trade; 09:23, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Case continued
In response to the above, please see Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. The user has also been notified at User talk:Winchester2313. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 19:22, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Reading through all the above stuff regarding IZAK's latest complaint, all I can say is that the only solution would be for IZAK to be banned from commenting on any Chabad-related articles?! His ongoing attacks and intimidation tactics against whoever he accuses of being in some 'Chabad POV conspiracy' have gone too far. In this case it seems that what prompted IZAKs latest WP:WAR) against [[WINCHESTER2313 was Winchesters insisting on sources for edits to a controversial article as per WP:VERIFY and WP:SOURCE. IZAK actually started an edit-war by making a lot of changes that were WP:CHALLENGED and not providing any sources. I took an hour to actually read through all this stuff and it's clear that this is what happened. Just stop attacking and threatening other editors, IZAK, and things will calm down. I actually asked WINCHESTER2313 back in April 2010 to tone it down on the ELAZAR SHACH page, and he did! Now IZAK comes trying to stir the pot with accusations that are many months old, to cover for his abuse and attacks on other editors. Please stop the war.Csteffen13 (talk) 15:28, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Csteffen13: I am not sure where you are coming from, but in fact I hardly comment on Chabad topics. I am not doing anything to other editors and in fact one of them is now blocked (nothing to do with me) and one is not active. I have commended the others on some improvements and we have not crossed paths lately. Your accusations are blatantly false because I created a number of key Chabad articles years ago and worked to improve them. My main complaint has been when pro-Chabad POV editors get involved in topics that are not part of Chabad and then attack them in POV fashion. Winchester2313 never "toned down" anything! He has continued with his same aggressive attacks against topics that relate to criticism of Chabad (where I am never involved). I had been adding many sources to the Yitzchok Hutner article (a NON-Chabad rabbi and topic that Winchester2313 has decided to make into his next target of revisionism) and Winchetsre2313 blindly blanket violated WP:3RR. It is only very recently that I too have become the focus of Winchester2313's tactics and that is why I have complained. Please stick to the point. IZAK (talk) 06:03, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

This is disgusting and disrespectful on so many levels...
If you look at the history of User talk:Parasect and scroll down a little while, you will see that some idiots, (you have 4 chance to figure out who it is; otherwise your guess is moot) have been suggesting that the user commit suicide. Just a week ago, this user was thinking suicidal thoughts, and I can't even begin to say how utterly rude and disrespectful this is. In short, I'm requesting an immediate Revdelete. Thanks, Access Denied  [FATAL ERROR] 06:12, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. &rArr; <font face="Euclid Fraktur"> SWAT  Jester    Son of the Defender  07:26, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Co-editor apparently banning me from pages
See /Smatprt. A topic ban from the topic of William Shakespeare has been proposed and has considerable support, and a mutual editing restriction on all parties is also under consideration.
 * Moved to subpage as it's rather big. --TS 22:31, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Datestamp of this comment is faked in an attempt to delay archiving of this pointer. --TS 22:31, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * One of the two editors (I am both the plaintiff and, in the thread, subsequently indicted)for whom a topic ban has been proposed, User:Smatprt, has noted on the page that he is experiencing problems with his computer, and will be travelling until the 18th, and thus cannot respond to the charges or issues raised concerning his editing behaviour. I suggest the page here retain this notice until at least that date.Nishidani (talk) 11:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I've decided to cut short this ridiculously long discussion by noting the administrative consensus for a topic ban on User:Smatprt from all articles related to William Shakespeare, broadly construed. Admins dissenting please note here before the end of the month or I'll just cut the link to the subpage and formally notify Smatprt of the topic ban. --TS 23:36, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Concur with the ban.   DGG ( talk ) 19:14, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Seeking Range block of IPs
Could an admin check into this. It seems an IP hopping vandal with an agenda is continuing to disrupt various film related articles two example articles List of thriller films: 1990s and List of action films of the 1980s. Semi protection does not seem to help, as he just goes on to a different article. According to the talk page they may be sockpuppets of User:Pé de Chinelo. Fei noh a  Talk, My master 17:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC) 0
 * Can you provide us with a full list of articles where disruption is occurring or a list of IP addresses engaging in disruptive editing on the said pages? - F ASTILY  <font color="#4B0082">(T ALK ) 18:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Special:Contributions/187.35.36.216


 * Special:Contributions/201.43.207.250
 * Special:Contributions/201.92.133.180
 * Special:Contributions/201.95.49.160
 * Special:Contributions/201.68.206.194
 * Special:Contributions/201.13.197.253

Article hit before they were semi-ed:
 * List of action films of the 1980s
 * List of action films of the 1990s
 * List of action films of the 2000s
 * List of action films of the 2010s
 * List of thriller films: 1990s

May be more articles, that I'm not aware of.

Other notes:
 * User:Andrzejbanas, seems to be a target of this vandal's edits as seen in User_talk:Andrzejbanas.
 * Checked on the Sockpuppet_investigations/Pé_de_Chinelo/Archive, which seems to indicate that the vandal may be using the same ranges mentioned in the case.  Fei noh a   Talk, My master 19:30, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Please note: See this page also . Some of us are trying to tag the new ip's as we catch them but they change quite often. I am not sure that all of the recent ones are on the sock puppet report. The pattern over the last few months has been for this editor to disappear for a week or so and then return with a barrage of editing from multiple IP's on articles, their talk pages and Andrzejbanas talk page as mentioned above. Considering the range of the IP hopping and the language used in the personal attacks on Andrzejbanas (many of which have been rev/del by User:Edgar181) it is possible that a ban discussion should be opened on Pé de Chinelo. That is if one has not occurred before - I looked through the banned editors list and could not find this editors name but I might have missed it. MarnetteD | Talk 19:49, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I would be inclined to be against this. We are sometimes too quick to ask for a range block. Remember that range blocks should only be used in extreme cases, which this doesn't appear to be. Usually the vandal gets bored and moves on. Don't worry theres always someone around to catch vandalism, and if not, it gets fixed eventually.--Jojhutton (talk) 19:53, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This editor has been socking since before June of 09. So the bored and moving on does not look to be happening anytime soon. The edit summaries are usually pretty vile which is why so many of them are rev/del. But I agree with your sentiments about range blocking and I know that they are to be avoided when possible. That is the reason that I suggested the ban so that we can revert this persons edits without fear of violating 3rr. MarnetteD | Talk 20:07, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Most editors such as this recognize the futility of their attempts fairly quickly, but the ones who are not so bright may take a bit longer to catch on. This one, I suspect, will take quite a bit longer.  Long term semi-protection of the articles will likely be necessary.  Range blocks probably aren't appropriate in this situation because of the broad range of IPs involved.  For now, the articles have been semi-protected short term (Thank you, Looie496 and Courcelles) and I have applied rev/del to a few more of the childish edit summaries.  -- Ed (Edgar181) 22:33, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I first noticed this user, using the 201.xx IP range, edit warring over genre on The Godfather, at least 2 years ago. Here are some diffs:


 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 

There are many, many more, but this gives you an idea of how he works. A full list of all the films on which he has edit-warred would be long, but would have to include, in addition to The Godfather, The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, The Silence of the Lambs, Inglourious Basterds, and Heat. ---<font face="Georgia"> RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 00:10, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Rangeblocks won't work, as he is operating from an entire /8 range. I also don't know if proposing a WP:BAN will work either, as the indefinite block obviously is being spat on. I think long-term semi-protection is the only option here. Hate to say it, but he has ruined it for everybody else. –MuZemike 17:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for adding your thoughts MuZemike. I only suggested the ban as a way for us to avoid getting blocked for a violation of the 3rr. It was once explained to me that banning doesn't keep away a pest like this editor but it does protect us when reverting its trolling. If I have been misinformed my apologies for suggesting it. MarnetteD | Talk 18:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-09-22/Charlie Anders
Can someone uninvolved look at the above case and decide what to do with the case, and with any users on it (if anything). A checkuser has stated: ''The filer of this case, Formerly 76.169.140.29, is a single-purpose sockpuppet of Bigdaddy1981. I have blocked the former, but I am not sure whether to block the main account or not, considering that he has not edited in a month.''

Thanks. FT2 (Talk 01:33, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

User:Ondertitel Open threat of edit warring, personal attacks, general uncivil behaviour
I encountered over at Crack intro. Like many internet subjects this often attracts editors using less than stellar sources. He made several additions to the article. I checked them, and while a good portion of them were fine he did attribute some information to some self-published sources. I removed those bits and stated as much in my edit summary. He restored them and I began the process of explain WP:RS and WP:V to him. His replies have been full of insults and now has an open threat of edit warring on the article talk page. I'm going to keep undoing your undos until you execute your threat and call an administrator that tells me to attribute it already and stop it. As such he should be blocked until he rescinds his threat. I also previously warned him about NPA, CIVIL and OWN, but his follow-up comment is full of more of the same. His initial comment, for which I warned him, Don't blindly follow sheeple and use your brain., is followed up by I consider your "challenge" trolling/nut kicking/demotivational the way you did it., and you are a demotivational asshole,. There is a serious problem with WP:OWN here and his response to any opposition to his edits doesn't put it in a favorable light. Since he's specifically requested someone whack him, I suggest someone fulfill it.--Crossmr (talk) 00:20, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Still an open threat of edit warring here, if people need diffs: First insult, my warning to him after it , his follow-up where he threatens edit warring and continues with the insults and personal attacks .--Crossmr (talk) 00:01, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I've restored this. This still requires administrative attention. There is still a user threatening open ended edit warring.--Crossmr (talk) 02:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Account has not edited in over 72 hours - if they make good on the threats then action can be taken at that time. Ping me on my talkpage if this is the case? LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:07, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You started it, you stop it. Stop seeking attention and stop wasting mine and the administrators their time over this. You saw I started fixing it, but you rather seek the opportunity for making trouble on a topic where you know nothing about and only have tried to remove the article instead of trying to contribute. As a matter of principle as reaction on your behavior I will undo your edit. Also, one source is valid, even for your standards. You know the sources exist and are already available on the article page but you willingly didn't try to attribute them yourself or give me the time to do it. That pisses me off. This is my latest revert. Next time I find time to make a proper article so this childish behavior can be ended. --Ondertitel (talk) 16:24, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * ...aaaaaaand, blocked indef. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:04, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, when I originally posted it, this was fresh. However, it was my understanding that an open threat of edit warring (Especially when there is history to demonstrate) was pretty much a block on spot until threat is rescinded.--Crossmr (talk) 00:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If the account is active, possibly; although I am not aware of such a guideline (not saying there is not one, just that I am not aware of one). The account had not edited between the reported incident and my review, so I took the view that potential disruption was not such to necessitate a sanction. Under the circumstances, having the editor come here and wave a large flag was fortunate for us and the project. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:50, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

User:IQinn
I recently tagged the above images for deletion (di-replaceable fair use) as they're all non-free images of living individuals, and thus almost certainly replaceable. However, the images' uploader, Iqinn, removed the templates and opened an FFD discussion on each image. Now, since this is a specific copyright issue which isn't handled with an FFD but rather the template, I re-added them to the file pages. Still, however the uploader insists that a week-long FFD discussion needs to take place. The images were "scheduled" to be deleted after Friday, 10/29, but Iqinn keeps modifying the template so that they won't be deleted until after Sunday, 11/7. Any of my attempts to restore the templates to their original state get undone by the uploader, and they don't appear to be hearing anything I say to them. I'd normally try alternative means of dispute resolution, but since this is an issue regarding non-free images with presumably invalid fair use rationales, I'm bringing the issue up here. Swarm Talk 04:02, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * File:Hadj Boudella before his detention.jpg
 * File:Belkacem bensayah.jpg
 * File:Ravil Mingazov.jpg
 * File:Nusrat Khan.jpg


 * The user who tagged these images has tagged these images and without providing any detailed reason for his action. The tag this user added to the images allows for deletion after only 2 days and the deletion time was already up before i even noticed that he has mass added this tag to the images. These are not easy cases and it needs more time and it needs community consensus and more community input. I have submitted these images to FFD where an ordered content focused discussion can take place and i have ask the tagger to join this discussion. No reason to press for deletion without allowing for discussion and community consensus. IQinn (talk) 04:26, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * No, not really, Iqinn. Not if they're copyvios. The tag is meant to get rid of such images expeditiously and consensus doesn't enter into it. We can't violate someone's copyright by consensus. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 07:26, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, that's really disruptive and against the rules to delete and alter the tag the way you have. It's probably blockable, too. Don't do that again. You can always upload them again if you come up with an acceptable fair-use rationale or they get properly licensed. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 07:30, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm blocking Iqinn for 24 hours for edit-warring about the templates. I'm not blocking Swarm at this time because at least some of their reversions (of the removal of deletion templates by a non-administrator) are justified as reversions of disruption. With respect to deletion process, now that the files are at FFD, they can be processed there just as well as via the speedy deletion process.   Sandstein   07:59, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Would it be out of order to restore the original deadline date on the speedy tags? I don't think an editor should be able to interrupt that process that way. The only thing that's supposed to stop a speedy delete of a copyvio is an acceptable fair-use rationale. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 08:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * If done by you some might consider it edit-warring. I recommend to leave things as they are. The files are now in the deletion process and will be eventually deleted if they need to be, a few days don't make much of a difference.  Sandstein   08:35, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Sandstein, these are copyvios we're talking about. They aren't handled by FFDs, they're speedied. Modifying the template to postpone deletion is just as bad as removing it. Edit-warring in this case isn't the problem, the problem is that IQinn is trying to prevent the images from being speedied. If articles that qualify for speedy deletion come up on AfD, we don't "leave things as they are", we speedily delete them anyway. This is the same thing, it's a blatant copyvio and its speedy deletion has been postponed for more than a week (not just a few days). This isn't a content dispute between two editors, it's an image's uploader trying to prevent legitimate speedy deletion by being disruptive. Nowhere on Wikipedia do we practice moving something that qualifies for speedy deletion to a week long deletion discussion. That's the point. If it meets one of the CSD, we can delete it without the pointless debate. I once again must stress that, when dealing with copyright, we don't take a "leave things as they are" approach. Swarm Talk 22:03, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If they are for-sure copyright violations, shouldn't they be zapped immediately? I said BLP overrides most anything in wikipedia. One thing that overrides BLP is copyright violation. Are all the images copyvios, or just the 4 listed at the top of the section? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:07, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * They are not copyright violations as such, they are copyrighted images which, it is argued, do not meet the fair use requirement of irreplaceability. That's not something that requires immediate deletion, and if the irreplaceability is contested, a FFD discussion might not be a bad idea.  Sandstein   22:12, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Any speedy deletion can be contested and the process never involves a regular deletion discussion. In this case, any one who disputes it simply can use di-replaceable fair use disputed. I'm under the impression that a 'copyvio' is copyrighted material that does not meet Non-free content. The images meet the first criteria for unacceptable use, so they certainly would seem to qualify as copyvios. Of course, this can be argued against, as can anything, but there is already a procedure that the user was very clearly made aware of. They decided to appeal to the community instead. In response to Bugs, only the above four images are in question (a further two have also been nominated for non-free content reviews). Swarm Talk 23:16, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * all speedies may be challenged, and they normally go to the appropriate XfD, in this case FfD. I do not consider bringing someone here merely because he challenged a speedy is a reasonable thing to do.   DGG ( talk ) 02:38, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * With respect, I don't think you understand the situation fully, as your statement does not reflect the situation correctly. Also, while PRODs automatically go to an XfD when challenged, this is not the case with speedies. Challenging speedies is done with the hang on template and a statement or discussion on the talk page. It would only go to an XfD if there was no valid CSD. It is not normal, in policy or in practice, for contested speedies to go to an XfD. Past this, we're not even talking about a normal article, we're talking about copyrighted images, here, which are one of the most, if not the most important and sensitive matters in the entire project. Edit warring and attempting to prevent or postpone the deletion of copyright violations is not a light matter, though I suppose there are some who lack interest or don't care about such things. Swarm Talk 03:20, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This represents a significant mis-statement of speedy deletion policy and practice. The tag is only used by the creator of the page (or file). Any other editor may remove a speedy deletion tag that they consider has been incorrectly applied. The speedy-tagger should normally not re-add the tag (assuming it was removed in good faith). (Of course, none of this matters in the circumstances of this particular case). Thparkth (talk) 12:42, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Anyway, this isn't the proper forum to discuss or dispute procedure and process. IQinn was blocked, nothing really else ANI can accomplish. Thanks. Swarm Talk 03:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I highly doubt "historically relevant photo, to illustrate the subject of the article", to illustrate the subject of the article", "To illustrate the subject of the article", and "to illustrate the subject of the article" are enough to satisfy WP:NFCC in my opinion. –MuZemike 06:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Oriel36‎'s talk page
This user is already indefinitely blocked for soapboxing on article talk pages. They have now done the same basic thing with their user talk page, and they show no desire to ever edit here; the only thing they have done since they said that they 'weren't going to mention their research again on wikipedia', is make continual minor grammatical changes to their soapbox text on their talk page. Per WP:NOTSOAPBOX, I request that it be blanked and replaced with the indef tag, and their talk page privileges be revoked.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus <font color="Green">Contribs 10:01, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks like this has been addressed. Newyorkbrad (talk) 12:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

title move dispute for Jesus in Islam
There is repeated request made about involvement of admin in the matter as the issue is related with application of Wiki policies on title selection.May pl. refer the discussion on talk page of article Jesus in Islam.

Issue:

Title change is requested from 'Jesus in Islam' to  'Isa( Jesus of Islam)' as as article is related of  a person in Islam religion,where he is known by 1.8 billion people by the name "Isa" only,which is a personnel noun,cannot bre substited by any other name.

Differences;

Most reader argues only 'Most common name in English ', only and dont go in initial title selection guidelines reffered buy wiki policies.

The last comment by me in discussion is as follows;

"Here in the present case some body is just talking on "most common name" ,without going into definition of "recognisabilty' than 'Familirity, than "name' than 'common name' than 'Most common name' . Till you go step by step and just fight on 'most common name in English' and say that there is no consensus,it is very hard to digest. I want to request,Please do step by step analysis first ,with wiki policy in background and then come to some conclusion and the if opinion difference consensus will prevail. I have tried to do step by analysis in my last detailed reply #REDIRECT Talk:Jesus in Islam, please give your valuable comments on each step and if there is opinion difference we all are here to resolve"

Please interfere,give your comments on policy anlysis and suggest rermedy.--Md iet (talk) 08:48, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * We don't need to do a step-by-step analysis. Policy in this case is clear, and overrides any other external-to-Wikipedia issues you may have.  Since Jesus is the most common name for this historical person/historical figure/historical myth (whatever term you prefer), Jesus is the name we are required to use.  It's just that simple.  As a simple comparison, the Wikipedia article for the city in Italy is called Florence, despite that fact that no one who lives there, or who has ever lived there, calls it that.  Now, if you want to argue that Wikipedia policy on article names should be changed, there are places where you can do that.  But unless you can show that "Isa" is a more common name in English articles of encyclopedic level (i.e., encyclopedias, scholarly journals, very high quality news sources, textbooks, etc.), then the article can't be moved.   The only logic for moving the title would be if you were to show that Jesus shows up in encyclopedic, English sources less than 3 times as often as Isa; if you can't, all of your other (external-to-Wikipedia) arguments are moot.
 * In short, I think you're perhaps just not understanding the fact that Wikipedia operates based on a set of policies and guidelines, not all of which match people's common sense and/or local logic. In this case, what your sense/logic tells you about article titles doesn't match policy/guidelines.  There is nothing wrong with this; but, in order for us all to be able to work together, we have to operate under consensus-based policies as much as possible.  Otherwise, we'd never be able to move forward on anything but the least contentious of articles.
 * I hope this makes sense--no one is saying your ideas don't have merit in a general sense, just that within the confines of how we work on Wikipedia. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:43, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Having read through that talk page, all I can say is would you please drop it. You've been banging on about this move for months, and I don't see a single person there agreeing with you. You've been told several times that Wikipedia policy and guidelines (specifically Consensus, Article titles, Naming conventions (use English) and Manual of Style (Islam-related articles)) support the current title, yet proceeded to move the page unilaterally (which was quickly reversed). There is a perfectly good redirect at Isa. the wub "?!"  10:02, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

To all Wikipedia Admistrators
Hello Administrators could you pleae block this wikipedia acocunt user Eaglestorm for being a mental cyber bullier and a orchestrater please, and also bullying me, the horrible person this user is. --Keating 1991Keating 1991 (talk) 06:59, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * See WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Whitmore_8621 Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:04, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Blocked by User:Mike Rosoft. Second unblock request by them basically admits sockpuppetry anyway. --- Taelus  ( Talk ) 13:48, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism
Hello, there is vandalism in this topic as I don't have Twinkle, I can't undo it.--NovaSkola (talk) 19:38, 30 October 2010 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FK_Ganja
 * Go to the article history. Click the date of the last good version. Click "Edit this page". Click "Save page." Anthony (talk) 19:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot.--NovaSkola (talk) 19:52, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't forget to fill in the comment line next time, please. It helps others a lot in following your actions. --PaterMcFly talk contribs 20:52, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Stephen Donald
Large amounts of vandalism from a wide selection of different people (mostly IPs) at Stephen Donald due to a high profile national sporting reverse. Some kind of temporary protection may be useful. (The vandalism itself is still being reverted as we go along.) It's also a BLP of course. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:12, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks to Uncle G this has now been sorted out. (I maybe should've requested it earlier, but wasn't sure how bad the situation needed to be.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:27, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Some people just don't seem to know where to write Australia beats New Zealand 26-24 in 2010 Bledisloe Cup fourth test. Uncle G (talk) 00:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Inflammatory edits
Please review this, and do whatever is appropriate. I'm making no more comment since it mentions me.--Scott Mac 00:36, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Removed the trolling part; if they put it back I'll protect. Black Kite (t) (c) 00:43, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, fine. I see now he was quoting Mickmacknee. Oh, well. Maybe I should just have ignored it.--Scott Mac 00:48, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Abu Ghraib images
The use of a very large group of images of the Abu Graib prison and abuse case have been unreasonable restricted by putting them on the MediaWiki:Bad image list. I think this restricted use of a very large group of Abu Graib images is unreasonable and has been done by a single administrator without providing a good reason. I think that needs some discussion here. I request to lift the restriction of the use of Abu Graib images by removing them from this list. Regards. IQinn (talk) 23:55, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Putting them on that list doesn't "unreasonably restrict" them unless it prevents their use on an article where it would be unreasonable to prevent their use, in which case that article can be added to the list this ceasing the restriction. Can you be more specific? What is the reasonable use that's being restricted?--Scott Mac 00:01, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Leave it up to the creativity of our editors when and where to use them without unnecessary hurdles. Simply no reason to have the Abu Graib images on that list. IQinn (talk) 00:18, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure there is. Those are photos of people being tortured, which is always an extremely sensitive matter, and hence restricts their practical use pretty narrowly up front. For example, posting them on one's user page would not be permitted. Also, wikipedia is not a picture-hosting site like flickr or something. Putting a "very large group" of any types of photos in an article is typically not allowed. A mundane example would be that while we might have a hundred pictures of dandelions at commons, we wouldn't or shouldn't have a hundred pictures of dandelions in the article about dandelions just because someone likes dandelions - there would have to be some uniqueness and notability about the photos. Certain Abu Graib photos became well-known for various reasons, and could be notable for the article. A "large group" wouldn't be. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:26, 30 October 2010
 * These are all examples we can deal with by common edition practice. Torture is not a sensible matter and Wikipedia is not censored WP:NOTCENSORED. I found it almost tasteless to add the Abu Graib images of torture to the MediaWiki:Bad image list. I strongly reject this practice. There is still no good reason to do so. IQinn (talk) 00:48, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is a good reason, as I just told you. Maybe it would help if you would specify where you want to put the images, and how many of them. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:55, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Using those photos except under very special circumstance would clearly be unethical and could even be a BLP matter. I think it is very prudent to have them on a list of pictures the use of which requires special thoughtfulness and better than average reasons. ·Maunus· ƛ · 01:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * How, exactly could use of those images in any non-vandalistic sense be a BLP violation, exactly? Hipocrite (talk) 02:05, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * but is there any evidence that they were used unnecessarily? I think they could be legitimately be used for other articles that those relating to the subject itself, as they are some of the very clearest and best known images of torture.  DGG ( talk ) 01:24, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I do not argue for permission from you to use them somewhere. I argue that that putting them on that list needs a strong reason. It limits the use of these images for most of our users as. As said leave it up to our users where to put them. There is no reason to restrict them fromt-up and let users go to additional processes. Having them on this list will automatically reduce the justified use of these images - as not many users have the patiences and skills to apply for the necessary exemption. The adding of these images to the list has already removed images from articles. Images simply vanished what could be interpreted as censorship considering the nature of these images. Just one example the image  (the image link does not even show up here) is included in Nudity. The adding of the image to the MediaWiki:Bad image list has remove the showing of the image in Nudity. The mass adding of Abu Graib images to the MediaWiki:Bad image list was unnecessary and has already removed valid use of the images. IQinn (talk) 01:27, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The argument you're making is a troll's argument. You should know better than that. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:18, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't even know that list existed. If I were a new user, I'd simply assume I'm too stupid to add images; there's no explanation as to why it's not visible... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 01:31, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * BLP is an excellent reason, and it trumps nearly everything else on wikipedia. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:45, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * And who says it's not visible? I'm an ordinary user, and I can see the list and its contents. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:48, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Just as an example. Any BLP problem to use [File:Abu Ghraib 58.jpg] in Nudity? IQinn (talk) 01:52, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The file is included in that section but not visible. IQinn (talk) 01:54, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll bet that if you asked on Mediawiki talk:Bad image list, you could get that specific image allowed for that specific article. These images do still deserve caution in general, though. — Gavia immer (talk) 01:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * As said i am not arguing for exemptions of single use of images in specified articles. That image should not have been removed from Nudity in the first place and putting ever editor to a process of an front up approval for any use of almost all Abu Graib images on Wikipedia - that is the problem. IQinn (talk) 02:09, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I am also strongly concerned. Have these images "been used for widespread vandalism where blocks and protections are impractical?" Hipocrite (talk) 02:01, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, it was nice of someone to goddamned inform me of this discussion (clearly someone decided to bring this to the forum in absolutely outstanding faith, seeing as he wasn't getting his way). I'm glad that everyone finally decided to bring it up after I had the discussion up for two weeks, and after I used common sense and only added the images with naked bodies (which were filmed against the person's will!) and used exactly the same criteria as the other images. Sometimes this place is such a fucking joke. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:09, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * If you are unable to remain civil when your controversial administrative actions are questioned, there is certainly a problem. I'd also ask that you be more clear that the "someone" who informed you of this decision is not the "someone" who brought it to the forum. Hipocrite (talk) 02:12, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * That was my point. And don't patronize me; yes I'm upset that people who didn't give a fuck in the first place when it was on the page for two weeks are all of a sudden up in arms about me doing exactly what's been done with other images and immediately bring it to ANI without bothering to try to work it out there first or even inform me of it. But fine, do things as you all will. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:16, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, those who don't even know the list exists can hardly voice an opinion; if the whole system gave some sort of hint or display a placeholder that says "go to Mediawiki:so-and-so to request exemption" I wouldn't see that much of a problem. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 02:29, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Forget about it; I've just removed the damned things; just about no one else could apparently be bothered to care about the contradiction or possibility of vandalism. I'm going on Wikibreak. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have restored Magog the Ogre's additions to the bad image list (but with an exception for Abu Ghraib 58.jpg on "Nudity"). Magog the Ogre's reasoning is correct, even though I do not appreciate his incivility above. The policy that commands the restricted use of these images is WP:BLP, specifically the WP:MUG section, which states: "Images of living persons should not be used out of context to present a person in a false or disparaging light . This is particularly important for police booking photographs (mugshots), or situations where the subject was not expecting to be photographed " (my underlining) The bad images list is an effective means to prevent the frivolous use of these images (e.g. on user pages). All normal uses of these images remain possible by making a request at MediaWiki_talk:Bad_image_list, but editorial consensus for the inclusion of such an image in any article should normally be established beforehand.   Sandstein   08:12, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * For that to apply, wouldn't the images need to actually have any identifying information in them? Faces were blacked out, if visible - unless you are referring to the mugging-for-the-camera soldiers? Hipocrite (talk) 08:37, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * (From my talk page) What matters, according to WP:MUG, is that the image is of a living person, not that it has identifiable features. The men depicted, at least, would recognize the images of themselves. Also I suppose they can be identified via court documents, etc.  Sandstein   08:39, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a change to how the bad image list is being used. How many thousands of images which could be used BLP violations do we have? Do we want them all in the list? I prefer the old way. If the image is used a lot for vandalism or blp violations it should be on the list, but not as an precautionary measure. Garion96 (talk) 10:45, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Regardless of this, it would be great if it could display an informative message (say, "<FILENAME> may only be used on pages it has been specifically approved. Please request approval at MediaWiki talk:Bad image list."). I also agree with Garion96 that the list should not be used as a precautionary measure, since it is antithetical to the wiki model to require an approval process before editing - no one can anticipate all possible legitimate uses of an image. If there's widespread disruption or BLP violation, fine, but in other cases warning/blocking may be preferable. T. Canens (talk) 12:34, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That is true in principle, but the very existence of MediaWiki:Bad image list reflects community agreement that we make a precautionary exception to the Wiki principle with respect to certain images whose misuse may be problematic. (Protections, etc. are likewise precautionary). But I agree that the use of the image list for BLP rather than vandalism concerns seems to be rather novel, and if there are enough people who would prefer to have a policy discussion about that use first, that's OK with me.  Sandstein   12:45, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Community consensus is for to make an exception to images whose misuse is problemetic. Images which have repeatedly been used used for vandalism or BLP violations. For that old slippery slope argument :) I think the Abu Graib images should be removed from the list. Garion96 (talk) 13:09, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The BLP concern is a red herring. These images are BLP violations in themselves, as much on their own as in the Abu Ghraib article or any other. The BIL is stop images being added to articles. So which articles does this being prevent them being added to? -- zzuuzz (talk) 16:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll just add my voice to those opposed to such additions. I've never seen any of these images used for vandalism or even inappropriately. The arguments in favour basically demand that all of the hundreds of mugshots are also added, as well as all images which cast any unidentifiable individual in a bad light. That's just a waste of time unless they're actually going to be used for vandalism, and there are many more relevant pictures which could be added instead. It's much better to remain focused on the images which are actually regularly used for BLP vandalism, like penises and pussies used in infoboxes. -- zzuuzz (talk) 16:25, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If the images are copyright violations, then they should be zapped anyway, and then the BLP question becomes moot. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:59, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed the images for now. If consensus changes that the bad image list should also be used as a precautionary measure they can be added again. Garion96 (talk) 23:26, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. No reason for those to be on that list.--Jojhutton (talk) 23:41, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Help fixing history
When fixing a case of mainspace squatting with the page Nimbus, I moved the page as I found it to Nimbus (technical festival) and started to create a disambig with the now free Nimbus page. It was only when I started to do so this that I thought to check the diffs to find that there originally been a disambig and had been overwritten by another editor. I tried reverting to the last relevant diff however my initial move and attempt to create a disambig meant I cannot move things back as they should be. I copied and pasted the earlier version to the Nimbus page and the pages now look okay except that the edit history of the page is divorced from the page. Can an admin please delete the current Nimbus page, revert Nimbus (technical festival) to the point when it was a disambig (this diff) and move the page back to the empty Nimbus page. Thanks and sorry about creating more work for everybody. KTo288 (talk) 21:25, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Good grief! Have you read Nimbus (technical festival)?  That article needs some serious attention.  And you need to fix some interlanguage links, too. Uncle G (talk) 21:55, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "Foes with lightning quick reaction and blade sharp wits danced on the dais of the bedlam"? Britannica must be kicking themselves they missed that one. – iridescent  21:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * To stay on the safe side, should Britannica rename itself Britain-and-Ireland-ica?←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:03, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I've rendered the introduction into a basically intelligible (and totally unreferenced) paragraph - I hope this doesn't give the article an air of undeserved authenticity. At best this is a student faire with an article written by the world's most enthusiastic person. But some of it is so bizarre, could it be a machine-generated hoax? 87.112.148.166 (talk) 22:22, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No. But there's a lot of bad content there.  (The article's writing style resembles that of the newsletter article, notice.)  Well done for that cleanup.  There's a lot more of it needed.  (Notice the random Yoko Ono quotation, for example.)  I'm about to tackle Category:Student infobox templates. &hellip; Uncle G (talk) 22:34, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

DYK, plagiarism, the main page, reliable sources &hellip;
Conversation regarding concerns of frequent and egregious copyright and plagiarism issues featured on the main page has been moved. The conversation is both general and specific in incidents and, at this moment (12:49, 31 October 2010 (UTC)), includes concerns about today's "featured article". Moonriddengirl (talk)
 * Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Plagiarism and copyright concerns on the main page

Ip Trolls (again) at List of books portraying paedophilia or sexual abuse of minors
The quran is a non-fiction book portraying pedophilia the IP says (two ips, presumably the same asshole behind them). suggest long semi-protection of the article. Bali ultimate (talk) 17:02, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Etc... . Semi the talk page too. (In case anyone is wondering, there are no "portrayals of paedophilia or sexual abuse of children in the Koran.")Bali ultimate (talk) 17:18, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd agree that for them to add it to the article is inappropriate in the face of clear disagreement, but the next thing to do in that case is take it to the talk page. You continuing to remove their doing so, rather than engaging with them and stating why you disagree, is just encouraging an edit war. You can't remove talk page comments just because you strongly disagree with them&mdash;if they're dead wrong, that'll be clearly reflected in the resulting discussion anyway. Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:30, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I won't debate with some IP (probably a banned user) who's here to use binary articles like this to spread hate. I suppose we could include the Old Testament as another such book for "balance." Put down the wiki koolaid and be practical. Sheesh.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:36, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If you think they're a sock of a banned user, sockpuppet investigation requests are thataway. But when you disagree with an edit enough to revert it, even when you strongly disagree, and the editor who made it asks to discuss it on the talk page, that's a reasonable request. You're not required to participate in that discussion, but reverting even the request to discuss it is not appropriate. That is the appropriate next step if your edit is disputed and reverted&mdash;take it to talk. And as to the edit conflict addition, I don't even like Kool Aid. Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:40, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with Bali here (for what it's worth). reasoned discussion is one thing, but the 'mohammed->pedophilia' thing has proven to be such an extremely fossilized polemic that anyone espousing it can safely be assumed to be immune to normal discursive practices.  err...  or in English: no one makes that claim if they've thought about it even a little bit, so people who do make that claim aren't interested in thinking about it.  wp:AGF is a good thing, but it doesn't mean we give the benefit of the doubt to someone who walks into the room wearing cock-fighting spurs.  -- Ludwigs 2  18:00, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

←This page is a real problem—in scope, in potential for vandalism and bias, in referencing, and (until recently) in its plethora of "abstracts" that seemed to be for titillation rather than information or education. It's buying into a pack of troubles putting the Koran on there; that would open the door to a much wider scope in a tit-for-tat. And there are the cultural sensitivities to think about, too. Semi-protection would be good if this goes on. Note that the page narrowly survived another RfD recently. Tony  (talk)  03:02, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * What a dreadful article.--Scott Mac 03:15, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * well, maybe it's time to put it up for deletion. some of the included items are bizarre (Nausea has pedophiliac moments?  not that I remember...  Clockwork Orange features someone younger than 18 as the main character who has sex, but that hardly qualifies as pedophilia...).  and technically speaking Romeo and Juliet belongs on the list - I think most scholars put Juliet at 12-14 years of age.  I'll list it, and we can have the discussion anyway.  -- Ludwigs 2  03:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * "This article presents a list of books in which an adult character feels a sexual attraction to or sexually abuses a person under the age of 18". This is nonsense for a start, as a definition of 'paedophilia or sexual abuse of minors' Firstly, 'feeling an attraction' isn't abusive, and secondly 'the age of 18' is hardly an universally-recognised age of consent. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:46, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * While I agree the definition is poor, I don't really understand your first point. According to the title, the list isn't solely about sexual abuse. It's about paedophilia and sexual abuse of minors. Are you perhaps confusing the common media concept of a paedophile (someone who abuses children) with the psychiatric disorder? I presume the list is intended to deal with the latter since otherwise it's a list of books potraying the sexual abuse minors and the sexual abuse children which doesn't make much sense. Nil Einne (talk) 20:29, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Articles for deletion/List of books portraying paedophilia or sexual abuse of minors was closed as no consensus.  Corvus cornix  talk  05:01, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

User:Kudpung99 removing content w/out explanation
User:Kudpung99 created his/her account on October 21, 2010. Since that time, s/he has made scores of edits to various wikiarticles relating to various concert venues, mainly in North America. There are two issues for which I seek guidance: In summary, s/he does not respond to postings to his/her talk page and will not use edit summaries explaining the deletions of large tracts of content from wikiarticles relating to concert venues. Suggestions? Thanks! — <font color="#DC143C" face="Garamond" size="3">Spike <font color="#000000" face="Garamond" size="3">Toronto  07:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) I am surprised that the system permitted the creation of this account since there already exits User:Kudpung. It would have seemed to have violated WP:U, especially as that policy relates to similar usernames. I would have thought that to create this account, a request would have had to have been made at WP:ACC. Moreover, User:Kudpung has had to disassociate himself from this new account by placing a notice at the top of his userpage indicating that this new account is not a sock of User:Kudpung, nor connected in any other way.
 * 2) As mentioned above, User:Kudpung99 has made scores of edits to wikiarticles relating to concert venues. Many of them remove significant tracts of content without explanation. S/he has been warned about this (see here). S/he blanked the page of that warning, which, as per WP:OWNTALK, one may construe to mean that the notice has been read and understood by the user. A week later, s/he was gently warned to use edit summaries (see here), and again blanked the page. Tonight, s/he was, again, specifically warned about removing content from pages without explaining the deletion (see here). While s/he has not edited since that warning, perhaps having signed off for the night, nonetheless I have, so far, reverted 15 of these content deletions (see here), with scores more of his/her contribs still to review.


 * This user's editing patterns look suspiciously like those of now-blocked . It may be worth opening a sockpuppet investigation. - Eureka Lott 08:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Good eye. ✅, blocked, and tagged. . –MuZemike 18:09, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Doncha just hate edit conflicts! I just wrote this detailed update, only to discover that it wasn’t necessary … nor is it necessary for me to file at WP:SPI. Thanks EurekaLott and MuZemike! — <font color="#DC143C" face="Garamond" size="3">Spike <font color="#000000" face="Garamond" size="3">Toronto  18:13, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

P.S. Over the next few days, I’ll go through all of his contribs and revert, where necessary. Thanks! — <font color="#DC143C" face="Garamond" size="3">Spike <font color="#000000" face="Garamond" size="3">Toronto  18:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Block discussion: persistent copyright
I have blocked this user for two weeks for yet another blatant copyvio. Frankly, if the copied content were not as brief as it is, I would have indeffed him, as he is the subject of an ongoing WP:CCI and does not yet seem to have indicated any understanding of our copyright policies. My request for this block review is really more by way of an "is this enough?" and because fresh eyes are always helpful.

The incident that prompted the block: this paste from this source. See most recently this notice and the subsequent discussion. Previous ANI threads: here and here. His CCI is here. It has recently been undergoing review by another contributor who is finding more issues and who notified me of the most recent violation.

If you think I should have blocked for a different length of time, please feel free to do so. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:02, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * In terms of not understanding: his response. (FWIW, see his talk page for bolded runs of duplicated text.) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:08, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh! He really doesn't get it. Support an indef block until he does. Jon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.145.247.25 (talk) 19:32, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Given that response which fails to understand how expression of facts can be copyrighted, two weeks sounds pretty generous, if they really don't get it that bad they are a danger to the project. --82.7.40.7 (talk) 19:35, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to extend the block further now. But I have left another final warning concurring with Moonriddengirl.  If he doesn't get it and will ask and discuss before doing anything else we can salvage his contributions going forwards.  If he does it again, he's gone; I'll indef him if he does it again, or support anyone else doing so.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Tendentious editing by JPMcGrath on Gun laws in the United States (by state)
This is an issue that has gone on for months, the most recent events are chronicled at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)#Brady_scorecard.2C_maps:_saga_continues, where there are also links to previous threads on the same topic. The issue was decided by consensus months ago, and suddenly JPMcGrath appears again claiming "There has been no rebuttal; rather obfuscation, obstruction, and dissembling" to his arguments, despite being given links to more than 30,000 words of discussion, as Mudwater demonstrated. He has been warned, has been treated respectfully and politely by both myself and Digiphi, but continues to push this POV. His arguments have not changed, yet he continues to add this content against consensus. At this time his actions merit "disruptive editing", and I'm asking for a topic ban on this. Rapier (talk) 23:46, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I read through the talk page and had a good look at the article history. It is clear that JPMcGrath is trying to edit against local consensus. His language and approach might be a low level of tendentious editing, but it's mostly a content dispute. I will warn him to cease edit warring at the risk of being blocked. I saw no 3RR violations. Basket of Puppies  00:05, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * What I am seeing is tedentious editing on both sides of a "no consensus" poll on the talk page.
 * The response to a "no consensus" is not to go edit war over it on the article itself. It's to go back and try again to find an option that everyone agrees to.
 * Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:08, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree wholeheartedly that is preferred. That is why, when Mudwater repeatedly removed the maps in July, I decided to avoid edit warring and try to discuss it with him.  However, he evaded my questions about his justification for removing it, and when he finally stopped replying to my posts at all, that is when I restored the maps.
 * Throughout these discussions, I have tried to engage those who oppose the map, and have made changes to try to accomodate their concerns. I changed the captions on the map to address their objections and SaltyBoatr made a change to them as well.  When Hoplophile suggested the OpenCarry.org maps to balance the Brady map, I created those and added them.  When Mudwater suggested adding a concealed carry map (although he later denied doing so, then admitted he had), I created and added the NRA/ILA map.  I continue to be open to any other suggestions.
 * In response, there has been not a single suggestion for a solution or compromise. Inexplicably, Mudwater even argued that it was a good thing that the article was "all trees and no forest"; i.e. that it had no summary information.  While I cannot be certain what is in his or others' minds, it seems to me that the real issue is an extreme dislike of the Brady Campaign and that the only acceptable solution to them is the removal of the Brady map.
 * It should be clear that I have made a good faith effort to discuss the disagreement and to try to reach a consensus. I am sure I could have done things better, but I am not sure how at this time.
 * — JPMcGrath (talk) 20:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I had hoped for a reply to this, but I suppose I should have asked my question directly, so here it is: How do you (or any admin) think I should have responded to Mudwater's edit warring?  — JPMcGrath (talk) 11:47, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I had hoped for a reply to this, but I suppose I should have asked my question directly, so here it is: How do you (or any admin) think I should have responded to Mudwater's edit warring?  — JPMcGrath (talk) 11:47, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I really would appreciate a reply to this. — JPMcGrath (talk) 12:48, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I really would appreciate a reply to this. — JPMcGrath (talk) 12:48, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Finding an option that everyone agrees on may not be possible in this case. The discussion has gone on for more than seven months and now exceeds 30,000 words (yes, really). Many of the editors who have participated in the discussion have agreed that adding the Brady Campaign State Scorecard map to this article would violate NPOV by pushing a particular political agenda and by providing a soapbox for an advocacy group. Some have also stated that the map does not accurately assess the restrictiveness of the different states' gun laws. Others have suggested that the map might be appropriate for a different article -- for example, Political arguments of gun politics in the United States, or Brady Campaign, which currently does include the map -- but not this article, which simply describes the gun laws of the 50 states in as neutral and unbiased a manner as possible. At this point somewhat more than half of the editors have agreed on this, with a sizable minority not agreeing and saying that adding the map would be okay. Still others have floated the idea of balancing the map by also including another map that supports an opposing view, but there does not appear to be such a balancing map. Anyway, the article without the maps has achieved a very neutral point of view by simply presenting the facts of the laws, which are the subject of this particular article, without adding opinions of any kind. As I said, many editors have agreed that not adding the map is the best course of action. But editor JPMcGrath has refused to accept this and keeps adding it back. This is indeed contentious editing, as it has the effect of disrupting the article for the apparent purpose of advocating a particular political point of view. Here are links to the various discussions that have already occurred: — Mudwater (Talk) 00:29, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Archived discussions:
 * Talk:Gun laws in the United States (by state)/Archive 1
 * Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 12
 * Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive603
 * Requests for mediation/Rejected/45
 * Talk:Gun laws in the United States (by state)/Archive 1
 * Talk:Gun laws in the United States (by state)/Archive 2
 * Discussions currently on the article talk page:
 * Talk:Gun laws in the United States (by state)
 * Talk:Gun laws in the United States (by state)
 * Talk:Gun laws in the United States (by state)
 * Agreed, adding the "Brady scorecard" to a state would be analogous to adding the NRA scorecard on a candidate (or anyone else's scorecard, for that matter) to a candidate's Wikipedia article. Having said that, YESPOV is indeed part of NPOV. The main point, though, is that editors must work in good faith to pursue consensus on how to present contentious topics. Jclemens (talk) 02:26, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree completely. While this isn't the place to argue content, I'll simply clarify that buried in those arguments is the point made by myself and others that an NRA map would be just as inappropriate.  We aren't trying to push one point of view or the other, we're trying to remove all point of view and simply list the laws in an encyclopedic manner.  When third-party analysis of raw data get interjected that is when POV problems occur, and as Mudwater stated above, there are already articles discussing the political debate about gun laws.  The maps are included there and continuing to add them here despite clear consensus is the problem. Rapier (talk) 03:32, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see a new clear consensus on that point. What I see is several editors who were on one side of the July "Remove all maps or not?" discussion - which an apparently uninvolved admin closed as "No consensus" - continuing the discussion and asserting now that you have consensus, without the participation of most of the other side.
 * Nothing in the new discussions invalidates the July discussion. No effort was made to revisit it with another clear poll / RFC.  It seems like some previously active editors are less active now, but that doesn't invalidate their participation in the last clear poll / RFC type discussion.
 * ANI is not a replacement for going back to the page and holding another RFC. If those other editors are gone and it's a new consensus that's fine.  But this is not the place - and attacking the lead map proponent for disruption is not the right approach - to solve the no consensus problem.  Do it right, on the article.  Get a consensus.  If it's still "No consensus" then accept that.  If it goes your way this time, with whoever shows up to bother to participate, then he will need to accept that as well.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:32, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * We've had seven months and more than 30,000 words of discussion, including a Request For Comment, a posting on the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard, and a Request For Mediation. A majority of editors -- including myself -- feel very strongly that adding the Brady Scorecard map is an egregious violation of NPOV, and also distorts the facts, while other editors don't agree and think that adding the map would be okay.  It seems to me that if many of the participants agree that the map would be a major NPOV violation, and pushes a one-sided political agenda, that trumps other editors saying that it would enhance the article slightly by providing an attractive graphic of summary information.   Also, part of why JPMcGrath's editing is tendentious is that he keeps saying that editors such as myself have not explained why adding the map would violate NPOV, when in fact we've just spent the last seven months explaining it, over and over and from many different perspectives.  There's a difference between "you've explained the reasoning behind your opinions at great length and in many different ways, but I still don't agree," and "you haven't explained the reasoning behind your opinions," but the difference seems to elude JPMcGrath.  So, I find it hard to believe that prolonging the discussion any further would have much benefit at this point. — Mudwater (Talk) 11:37, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Good grief, that debate is still going on? As I recall, the main issue with that map is that it presupposes certain things and gives a value judgment as to each state's attitude toward gun control. The problem is whether that map presents an unbiased assessment. Since they themselves are its authors, obviously they are going to judge which parameters to be used. Now, if you had a similar map from the point of view of the NRA, those two maps would be interesting for the reader to compare, and see if they "agree" on each states' attitude toward gun control, even though the groups are obviously on opposite sides of the issue. That is, the NRA might consider a restrictive state to be a "bad" state, and the Brady bunch might consider it to be a "good" state - but it's possible they might rank the states the same way, just flip-flopped in order. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:48, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, this isn't the forum for content dispute, but to clarify the argument is that all maps offer up a POV that is inappropriate in an encyclopedic listing of state laws, not that the "Brady" map alone should be removed. Let's please be clear on the prime mover is, and not allow this to become an issue directed at a single point. Rapier (talk) 22:45, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems to me that a map like that could be useful, IF it were verifiable and not pushing a viewpoint. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:56, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It may well be useful in the context that Bugs describes, but it's simply not acceptable to keep readding it as it's been done here. There needs to be the wider context that Bugs is talking about if there's any chance for this kind of advocacy ranking to be relevant in a general state article. Shadowjams (talk) 08:17, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

I've un-archived this thread to allow for further discussion, per User talk:JPMcGrath. — Mudwater (Talk) 20:49, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I will post my response as soon as I can get it together. — JPMcGrath (talk) 10:04, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Response by JPMcGrath
First, I should point out that several of the statements made by SeanNovack are inaccurate:
 * He says that "the issue was decided by consensus months ago", which is untrue. That there has never been a consensus is made clear by the RfC here, and by Mudwater's multiple statements that "about half" of the editors agree with him.
 * His "suddenly JPMcGrath appears again claiming" comment appears to suggest that my attempt to get others to address the justification for their WP:NPOV claim was something new. In fact, I had been trying to get them to address this question from the beginning.
 * His suggestion that the fact that there had been "more than 30,000 words of discussion" means that my questions about the justification for removing the maps had been answered is nonsense. That there was a great deal of discussion does not in any way suggest that the discussion contained an answer, and the unwillingness of participants to point to an answer strongly suggests that it is not there.

That said, I spent some time writing a response that went into this conflict in great detail, but then realized that rehashing all of the details of the disagreement would be tedious, not on point, and would ignore the central point of this discussion, which is the accusation of tendentious editing. According to WP:Tendentious editing "Tendentious editing is editing with a sustained bias, or with a clear viewpoint contrary to neutral point of view.""

I have clearly stated that I believe the article badly needs summary material, so that the reader can get a feel for the overall state of gun laws in the United States; as I put it at the outset of this conflict, the article is "all trees and no forest". The maps are intended to ameliorate that problem.

I do not believe that in any way fits the definition of tendentious editing, so I would like my accuser, SeanNovack, to explain what is it in my editing that qualifies as either sustained bias or a a clear viewpoint contrary to neutral point of view? What exactly is the bias or viewpoint?

— JPMcGrath (talk) 07:29, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The point is that you are the only one that feels that summary information is necessary. Others feel it 'may be helpful', and the rest of us are saying that summary information is inheriently biased by the person doing the summary and has no place in this article that is supposed to be an encyclopedic listing of gun laws by state.  The summaries exist in other articles, they simply have no place in this one. Rapier (talk) 15:09, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Once again JPMcGrath is saying that other editors have not stated any justification for the position that the Brady Scorecard map violates NPOV, and distorts the facts, and so should not be included in the article. I would encourage anyone reading this to click through the links I posted above, and look at some of the previous discussions, and see whether or not there are in fact very extensive postings on exactly that topic.  Also, the term "tendentious editing" definitely applies, because JPMcGrath is ignoring what many other editors have said, and is continuing to add the map, which is very biased and advocates for a particular political position. — Mudwater (Talk) 00:55, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Mudwater: No, I was not claiming that you have not stated any justification; you have come up with several reasons.  For example, you have said that you do not believe the Brady assessment is accurate, although when asked, you did not point to any reliable sources that said this.  You have also claimed that including information from the Brady Campaign provides a "soapbox" for them, yet you have no objection to information from, for example, the NRA.


 * However, none of the reasons you provided are related to WP:NPOV. I asked you to point to the language in WP:NPOV that it violates and you would not do so.  I asked you how you came to the conclusion that your objections violate WP:NPOV and you claimed that you had done so previously.  I asked you to point to your purported answer and you posted links to all of the discussion that had occurred on this subject.  In short, you obfuscated and obstructed.


 * In fact, you have never addressed the question of why it violates WP:NPOV. You have simply stated reasons that you don't like it and claimed that it violated WP:NPOV.  The fact that you disagree with their assessment, or that you don't like the Brady Campaign does not mean it violates WP:NPOV.


 * — JPMcGrath (talk) 15:33, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Sean: First, I should note that, like your claims of a consensus, your assertion that I am the only one who feels it is necessary is just a fabrication.  None of the RfCs have made that distinction and you have no basis to make that claim.


 * But that ignores the point I was making. Tendentious editing is about being "partisan, biased or skewed", and believing that summary is appropriate clearly does not fit that.  If that is the basis for your tendentious editing claim, it falls flat.


 * — JPMcGrath (talk) 15:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I've left this alone, but it's the same old story. A number of editors see it one way. JPMcGrath and generally one other editor see it another and when they agree with each other, they call it a consensus. If you fail to agree with them, you're just bias/partisan/POV warrior/etc. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I confess that I am somewhat perplexed and perhaps even a little bit amused. I did not say there was a consensus; rather it was SeanNovack and Mudwater.  And I did not accuse anyone of bias; SeanNovack accused me of bias when he said that I had engaged in tendentious editing.  So your comment appears to be a rather stinging indictment of SeanNovack and Mudwater.  I would not expect that from you, so I am confused. Would you please explain what you meant?  — JPMcGrath (talk) 00:02, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

JPMcGrath, you just said, "In fact, you have never addressed the question of why [the Brady scorecard map] violates WP:NPOV. " Here are a few selected diffs where I've done exactly that:       Those are just a small selection, all of them taken from the first of the nine discussions that I linked to above. There's plenty more where that came from, and tons more from other editors as well. — Mudwater (Talk) 00:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, you have given your opinion over and over again that the Brady Campaign scorecard is biased, and you have claimed that it therefore violates WP:NPOV. What you have not done, even though you have been asked to do so over and over again, is to show that WP:NPOV says material that is biased should not be included.
 * As I have pointed out to you, WP:NPOV does not say that. In fact, it explicitly says that the article should represent "fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources".  It also contains a section titled "Attributing and specifying biased statements".  It clearly does not proscribe inclusion of bias; it explicity calls for it.
 * — JPMcGrath (talk) 02:49, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Your statement that I've never addressed the question of why the map violates NPOV -- which you've made many times -- is patently false, as the various links and diffs that I've posted clearly show. You don't agree with what I've said on that subject, but that's an entirely different thing. — Mudwater (Talk) 03:20, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * You have not addressed the question; what you said about it is nonsense. It would be no different than if you said it violates WP:NPOV because you were eating cornflakes when it was posted.  If your claim is not related to what WP:NPOV says, then it is just gibberish.  It no more addresses the question than if you were to recite Jabberwocky. — JPMcGrath (talk) 06:07, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

The discussion of the Brady scorecard map has now lasted almost eight months, and includes multiple talk page sections, a Request For Comment, a posting on the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard, a Request For Mediation, and two postings on the Administrators' Noticeboard, including this one. We've now had more than 34,000 words of discussion. It would seem that you're willing to keep arguing indefinitely. However, we're long past the point of diminishing returns in this discussion. Many editors have agreed that the map should not be added to the article. That, I think, is the bottom line. — Mudwater (Talk) 12:25, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I suppose I have been patient, but I think that is a virtue rather than a vice, although I can understand why someone engaged in a filibuster might not be happy with it. Perhaps I am overly optimistic, but I am still hopeful that you will realize that your unwillingness to answer a simple question about your basis for removal of the map reflects badly on you.
 * For the convenience of you and others, I will ask the question again:
 * Since you have concluded that the Brady map map violates WP:NPOV, but you appear not to have based that on anything in the text of the NPOV policy, exactly how did you reach the conclusion that your objections to it constitute a violation of NPOV?
 * If you want others to accept your conclusion. it seems to me you should be willing to explain how you reached it. Wou;d you please answer it?
 * — JPMcGrath (talk) 11:45, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Are you telling me there's really nothing in the many discussions linked above which explains why people oppose this map? From what I can tell from a quick glance the issue is all maps not this one in particular. Nil Einne (talk) 20:58, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you Nil. You are exactly correct.  McGrath disagrees with and doesn't accept the reasoning people have given, so he's claiming his question remains unanswered.  People have gotten sick of trying to explain it too him, and yes, it is all summary maps that are inappropriate.  The NRA and Brady maps have the added issue of soapboxing and advertising for those organizations in addition to the WP:NPOV issues. Rapier (talk) 00:20, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * No, not at all. They have given many reasons that they oppose the maps, such as their belief that the map is biased.  However, they claim that the map violates WP:NPOV, but they have not ever explained why that is.  I have pointed out language in NPOV that indicates that all significant points of view should be included and they have not shown anything in NPOV that suggests it should be excluded.
 * As for the Brady/all issue, the Brady map was the first one to be added and it was opposed by several editors. Then, the OpenCarry maps were added at the suggestion of Hoplophile in order to balance the Brady maps.  At the time, Mudwater argued that the OpenCarry.org maps should be retained, but the Brady map should be excluded and he actually suggested adding the NRA/ILA.  I found it interesting that he opposed the Brady map, but supported all maps based on data from pro-gun groups.  He later changed his position.
 * Others have argued consistently against all maps, suggesting that anything from an advocacy group should be excluded. However, none have explained why it is OK that those same (pro-gun) advocacy groups are cited as sources dozens of times in the article.  While I cannot truly know what they are thinking, it seems to me that the real opposition is to the Brady map.
 * — JPMcGrath (talk) 00:55, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * — JPMcGrath (talk) 00:55, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Part of the problem here is that you keep saying that other editors have not explained their reasoning, when in fact we have explained it, at very great length. You've been doing that since the very beginning of this debate, and after eight months and 34,000 words, yes, we're quite tired of your claims to the contrary, and it seems pointless to try to convince you any more.  Another example of this is that you just said "none have explained why it is OK that those same (pro-gun) advocacy groups are cited as sources dozens of times in the article."  That's another aspect of this discussion, or more accurately a distraction from it, that has in fact been explained at length.  One of the diffs I posted above is an example, and here it is again.  That diff also includes a pretty decent summary of why the Brady map violates NPOV.  Furthermore, your recent posts summarizing the history of the discussion are not completely accurate.  But that's not important now.  What is important is that, after an initial period of some back and forth discussion, many editors, including myself, have come to the conclusion that none of the maps should be added to the article.  The Brady state scorecard map is merely the worst offender.  The biased opinions of pro-gun control groups like the Brady Campaign and pro-gun rights groups like the NRA should all be left out of the article.  To repeat, the bottom line is that many editors have agreed on this, so putting the map or maps back in at this point is both disruptive and tendentious. — Mudwater (Talk) 01:37, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * This debate needs to ultimately end up on the appropriate talk page, but practically we all know it will end up at RfC. I find Mudwater's conclusion compelling, especially after reviewing a lot of the above. Shadowjams (talk) 09:12, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry that I have been far and away since this moved to ANI. I became involved in this dust-up only during the last stretch of its time on the talk page, but I'm still interested in addressing the issue here. I see that JPMcGrath is currently blocked, and I'm not sure that's a resolution. Now we (the several editors opposed to McGrath) are really screwed. It's inarguable that the issue has been discussed exhaustively and that JPMcGrath's complaints have been serviced, and his talking points advised, even if allowing, perhaps, that the supposed consensus is uncertain. Despite this, we're stuck in a debate about whether the debate has ended or ought to have ended, which is hopelessly silly. JPMcGrath has demonstrated that he'll not lay down his flag, and we certainly cannot abide those maps. We cannot have an edit war forever ongoing in the article, nor can we ignore his posts (they are civil and apparently in good faith throughout). Something has to give because this is untenable.

- Digiphi (talk) 05:59, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Winchester2313 summarized

 * Background: See Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive646:

In response to requests from admins who have not made a firm decision, here is the central case against User these are the three most important complaints that clearly warrant sanctions against User :
 * 1) User has in the past been warned by at least two admins to stop edit warring, see: (a) User talk:Winchester2313; (b) User talk:Winchester2313; (c) adding defamatory stuff User talk:Winchester2313, (d) requested to stop blanking,  vandalizing pages and personal attacks at User talk:Winchester2313 and has been requested a few times on other talk pages to stop his intimidating behavior on several pages that he violates WP:OWN, WP:CIVIL and WP:HARASSMENT when editing.
 * 2) At Talk:Elazar Shach he has displayed crude and ruthless behavior, name calling against editors who disagree with him. He has intimated that he is WP:OUTING as he taunts them "Now be nice Yonoson (or is it 'Rabbi' Rosenblum...)", that he's a "a brainwashed robot" (violating WP:NPA), as he directs his attack against User naming him as Jonathan Rosenblum.
 * 3) He is conducting an edit WP:WAR at the Yitzchok Hutner article, not allowing me to add references and citations (see the diffs of my work that was in progress on citations         there are a few more) while he blanket reverts them all in the process violating WP:3RR, and hurls accusations, as he has done at other editors in the past in the hope of intimidating them away. He has already reverted the Yitzchok Hutner article 4 times     in 24 hours with blanket reversals in utter violation of WP:3RR that destroy my good work and ignoring pleas to talk at Talk:Yitzchok Hutner.

The above three complaints summarize the situation. Thank you. IZAK (talk) 19:13, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Note, the user has been notified, see User talk:Winchester2313. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 19:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Although Winchester2313 did violate 3RR, that was on October 27. Other than that, what you have here is an argument about fine details of content.  You claim that you are using sources properly, Winchester2313 says you are not.  There is no way that admins are going to be able to resolve this.  Unless you two can find some way to compromise with each other, your only hope of making progress is to find some third party who is interested enough in the article to spend the time to figure out what is going on. Looie496 (talk) 21:24, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Looie496: Thanks for commenting. Content is where it starts, but unfortunately Winchester2313 has a terrible habit of trying to "resolve" matters his way by going totally overboard, be it violating WP:OUTING which you need to note, WP:3RR which is serious and he knows it he's been warned by other admins about it previously, and by WP:WARRING in very blunt ways against users who disagree with him. He is not new to WP, he's been around at least since December 2009 and knows the ropes yet violates them all in the name of "sources, sources, sources -- now, now, now" in dictatorial fashion, while not letting the natural process of article development and writing proceed and sources added as it goes along and he has done the same thing in the various other articles he got involved in, as you can see in the comments left on his page in point (1) above. It is one thing to ask for sources in a WP:CIVIL way, no problem, we all know it's needed and I have spent much time in my life on WP adding sources when articles needed them in a reasonable time and civil manner and when they were requested, but he has to turn every edit into a bloody battleground as if it was trench warfare hoping to grind down and eventually fend off his opposing editors as he goes for the jugular of WP:OWNERSHIP of the article's content editing it from his own POV. And it's always either a pro-Chabad POV he is foisting or trying to insert in violation of WP:NPOV and he does this all by screaming "sources, sources, sources" and then he "reverts, reverts, reverts" like crazy even blanking out fairly neutral and good work, for every word, quote and phrase he wants to beat to death just because he does not like it that is no excuse. IZAK (talk) 04:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I've read through all of the edits and reverts at the Yitzchok Hutner article, and what you User:IZAK have actually been doing is adding lots of information thats actually wp:or and wp:pov, and then citing a 'source' that only supports a little bit of what he added. Please stop the 'stealth editing' and stop attacking other editors and start playing by the rules.Csteffen13 (talk) 20:25, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that is exactly what IZAK has been up to, particularly on the Yitzchok Hutner page as has been noted. In addition to the stealth-editing you mention, he's actually changed some of the content I quoted directly from sources, without bothering to cite references supporting his edits. I don't intend to waste more time responding to IZAKs hysterics, and will leave the matter in the hands of any administrator with the time to examine his history of threats / bullying / playing victim, alternating roles as it suits him. I continually attempt to learn the rules, and abide by them, and am happy when I'm corrected as to same. It'd be nice for IZAK to do the same. Winchester2313 (talk) 18:07, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

POV and propaganda by User:Jrkso
User:Jrkso is posting wrong information and fabricated nonsense in the article Afghanistan. He was asked to remove his claims or to provide reliable, scholarly sources on the talkpage of the article (Talk:Afghanistan). He refused and insisted on his POV. I took the matter to Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. There, everyone agrees that Jrkso's edits are POV and factually wrong (quoting User:Paul Barlow: "t's palpable nonsense [...] Misrepresenting sources is a blockable offence, which could be taken to WP:ANI"). I mentioned that once again on the talkpage of the article. But he is ignoring it and once again restored that false information (in addition to another POV issue which is being discussed at No_original_research/Noticeboard; Jrkso is largely ignoring that discussion as well) and is blindly reverting. I won't revert him again for now (he has been reverted by User:Dmcq anyway). But I think that admin help is needed. This is not only just a POV issue, but a fact that this user is stubbornly inserting factually wrong and fabricated nonsense in the article. To make it even worse, he is actively falsifying sources to make his edits look "sourced". See my comments on the talkpage. The article is tagged. Thank you. Tajik (talk) 13:13, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * is Forum shopping and I think that is blockable offense in Wikipedia; his behaviour is very disruptive; he's falsly accusing me of all these lies; he removes from articles sourced material that he doesn't like to see, and to mislead the admins, he turns around and quickly file reports on me, so that way the admins will focus on me instead. Tajik has been edit-warring and blocked so many times. The sourced information which he's accusing me of was there in the article for months. He removed it yesterday and when I reverted his edit he began attacking me.--Jrkso (talk) 18:06, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It would be helpful for all parties involved to approach this more calmly. The quote in question certainly appears in the source that Jrkso specified, although its derivation is not made clear.  It also, according to Google Books, appears in the Encyclopedia Indica of 1996, to which I don't have access.  There are no surviving letters from Alexander but several ancient historians gave quotes that they claimed derived from his letters.  In short, there is plenty of room to argue about whether the quote is properly sourced, but there is no good reason to claim that the quote was inserted in bad faith. Looie496 (talk) 18:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Except for Jrkso, everyone else agrees that the claim is unsourced and unreliable. Most likely, it is a fabrication. And I reported Jrkso in here after User:Paul Barlow refuted Jrkso's edits and explained that his falsification of sources (with the attempt of misleading the readers) should be reported to WP:ANI if he continues his behavior. The biggest problem with him is that he is aggressively ignoring discussions. He automatically edits or reverts and does not even bother to explain his edits. It would be a lot easier if he discussed his edits BEFORE changing the article. See Talk:Afghanistan as an example. He does not even dare to answer questions directed at him. He simply edits and reverts, ignopring all the rest. Tajik (talk) 19:38, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * User:Paul Barlow didn't mention my name or anything what this Tajik is asserting. The user Tajik is twisting things intentionally. And anytime another editor or an admin is mentioned in here, they should be at least notified some you failed to do Tajik. You didn't notify me either.--Jrkso (talk) 21:07, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The quote appears twice, once in the book, another time in the Encyclopedia Indica, but in both cases the wording of what Google shows is identical, "In a letter to his mother, Alexander described his encounters with these trans-Indus tribes thus: "I am involved in the land of a leonine and brave people, where every foot of the ground is like a well of steel, confronting my soldier.", so I think we have one claim repeated by someone else. I've spent quite some time on this and not only can I not find another source mentioning anything similar, all we know of Alexander's letters is what has been reported by other writers long after the fact, eg about 30 in Plutarch (4 centuries after his death) and in the Alexander romance, with scholars pointing out that many are certainly forgeries. Thus I'm really just repeating what Looie946 says, that there is no reason not to accept that the quote was inserted in good faith, but I also think that there is every reason not to use it. But that's not a matter for this board and is being discussed at RSN. Both of these editors do indeed need to calm down and avoid the need for Admins to act. Dougweller (talk) 20:34, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Tajik is mixing up two things here. First, an argument about a quote regarding Alexander, where Jrkso was arguing too hard for a poorly sourced statement but seems to have given up.  Second, an argument about the fraction of Afghans who are Tajiks, where the sources that Jrkso wants to rely on seem at first sight to be better than the survey Tajik wants to use.  So I don't really see any basis for action here.  What I will say is that Tajik should refrain from attributing the actions of other editors to an ethnic POV.  Edits should be discussed according to whether they are justified by policy and sources, not according to the perceived motives for making them.  These back-and-forth accusations of POV-pushing are very destructive and need to be stopped. Looie496 (talk) 21:06, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * All I am asking for is that Jrkso should use reliable sources and that he should discuss controversial edits BEFORE changing the article and BEFORE attempting to start an editwar. So far, he has done the opposite: relying on unreliable sources and ignoring the discussion. As for the numbers used in Afghanistan: please see the respective discussion. They are now added to the article, and even Jrkso had to accept it. Tajik (talk) 21:44, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Follow my contribution, no where did I use unreliable sources, so why you keep accusing me? Ignoring the discussion? Where? I have explained my self in all the discussions and I'm still doing it here, so again please stop the lies and misspresentations. I left the opinion polls in the 2 articles to avoid edit-war. I don't see how private non-governmental opinion polls using only 6,226 Afghans can be made into a representation of a nation of 28 million, this is "Mispresentation of Sources" and as User:Paul Barlow said, it's a blockable offense. Something like that is not done in any other nations' article. Leaving this in the 2 articles means Wikipedia fully backs the misleading misrepresentation. The polls have many flaws, they don't mention the Aimaq groups, period! The U.S. Library of Congress Country Studies confirms that in 1996 there were between 500,000 to 800,000 Aimaks in Afghanistan. The private polls, however, are telling us that there are no Aimaks in Afghanistan today, makes the world think that the Aimaks were all killed by the U.S. military and NATO armies during the 2001-present war in Afghanistan. Also, the incomplete polls have Tajiks 37% but when you google "Tajiks in Afghanistan" the results come back as 27% maximum, and none higher. These private incomplete surveys are directly in conflict with the official government statistics. On the one hand, I'm told here that sources must have complete truth and etc, and on ther other hand these ridiculous private polls are used to mislead readers, etc. I'm just confused and so I decided to stop arguing, and even when I do that the disruptive user Tajik is accusing me as the bad editor, and is seeking that I get blocked. I tell him to stop but he comes with more lies.--Jrkso (talk) 00:20, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * As an editor who reviewed material on both OR/N and RS/N; there appears to be some difficulty in the editorial community in relation to Afghan national and ethnic identities and the taking on board of expert external review of sources and claims at noticeboards. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:48, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Jrkso, the meaning and calculations of the respective polls were explained to you by other users. You also fail to understand that the number of the individuals in that poll - as a randomly-picked collective - gives a representative reflection. It is not a "100% minimized copy" of the actual population. But it gives a mathematically calculated hint at the actual population make-up. That's how polls work - everywhere! Your constant claim that the "numbers are wrong" because the polled collective is "too small" compared to the actual population of Afghanistan shows that you lack mathematical understanding of polls. Besides that, none of the sources you have provided is any better. Your claim that this or that American institution "confirms" this or that number is just laughable. Did the US send a special envoy to Afghanistan to count the actual population and register the ethnic identity of each individual?! Did they have representative polls?! Does the US government have official registration lists of Afghanistan's population in which every single man, woman, and child is registered?! So what makes you believe that the numbers of the US government are any more reliable?! It has already been pointed out to you that unlike the respective polls which are based on an ACTUAL poll IN AFGHANISTAN, the CIA Factbook numbers and those of the Library of Congress are nothing but guesses - totally baseless. That's why neither the Factbook nor the Library of Congress actually mention where they got their numbers from. Not to mention the fact the the only numbers based on official census results from the 70's (as provided by the Encyclopaedia Iranica) are much closer to these 2 recent polls than CIA's un-checkable and guessed numbers. Of course, since the Factbooks is widely cited, it is a reliable source according to Wikipedia standards and that's why it needs to be cited in the article in first place. But your stubborn claim that the poll numbers are wrong, misleading, etc is simply wrong. As is your laughable claim that the readers may think the Nuristanis were massacred by Americans. Calm down and think before you write! As for your unreliable sources: that your stance on an alleged letter by Alexander is solely based on an unreliable and un-scholarly source (everyone sees that, except you!) has been discussed and confirmed in another discussion. Tajik (talk) 02:37, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Again you're twisting my words around. I didn't mention Nuristanis in my last statement above, I said the Aimaq ethnic group came as 0% and you misquoted me. American Professor Louis Dupree spent around 20 years in Afghanistan studying the country and its people, he reports that during the 1970s there were about 500,000, Aimaks (Aymāq) living in the country. Afghanistan's ethnic composition is determined mostly by region, each region has a different race or ethnic group. It wouldn't be difficult for the US government and military (USAID, U.S. Embassy, Kabul, Naval Postgraduate School , UNHCR , UNDP, and others) to collect population data. Since you asked me a question about how US government got their Afghan figures allow me to explain this. Afghanistan has 34 provinces and each province is usually made up entirely or overwelmingly of one ethnic group. Each Provincial governor knows everything about thier province, they know how many districts there are and the number of villages in each district. They also know exactly what tribe or ethnic group lives in each village. Whenever someone is born they are registered in their birth district, and a copy of the birth record is sent to the provincial capital. If US military and government want to get this population info all they do is fly in their helicopters to the provincial governors headquarters and find it all there in the special records department. They can easily visit each district if they want. There are over 100,000 US military personell all across Afghanistan, they have 100s of military bases throughout the country. The CIA also has a special teams there, collecting all information about the people. They usally want to know where Taliban or Taliban supporters are so they like to know everything about the people. This is why American military and government always mention the ethnicity of Afghans in many of their websites. If you follow the CIA 2001 country report it said one thing but after US invasion, in 2002-present, it started changing the make up of Afghanistan's ethnic make up. Now, after telling you all this, you shouldn't question CIA or US government again. They are the most reliable networks in the world. The aim of your polls was to see how Afghan citizens feel about the latest 2002-2009 US-led war, current politicial situation, the economic and social issues affecting their lives, and things like that. It was not aimed at finding out the number of each ethnic group. You are using this in a wrong, confusing, provocative, and misleading way, by presenting it in Wikipedia sort of to say that these polls were conducted by all these popular news networks (NBC, BBC, and ARD) to show that Tajiks (your ethnicity) are not 27% as what CIA and Library of Congress always claim but possibly as high as 41%. This is misrepresentation of sources in Wikipedia according to my knowledge. This is not a place to laugh, this is an encyclopedia and we need to avoid putting such nonsense polls to present as a population census report. And to save yourself from trouble, you started all these discussion with things like "POV and propaganda by User:Jrkso" so that I get to be the center of attention when in fact it is you who is spreading ethno-centric propagnada and POVs. I know that all these things I explain in discussions is meaningless to you because your aim is to make Tajiks as high as possible in terms of percentage numbers. Your entire edits in Wikipedia are all centered around this, and your name is helping to confirm this.--Jrkso (talk) 06:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Jrkso, your speculation - again, totally unsourced and unproven - duly noted. But again: it's wrong. Speculating that the US government does this or that or that certain regional leaders have 100% knowledge of this or that province and that those regional leaders share their "knowledge" with US intelligence services is - to be frankly - the most unencyclopedic and most unreliable way to describe the population of Afghanistan (of course, like always, you cannot prove your claims and speculations). And, of course, you as an ethnic Pashtun, have a certain POV you want to publish in Wikipedia - like almost everyone in here. Your Pashtun ethno-centric and usually anti-Tajik edits were already criticized by others. But that's not the topic here. The only thing that matters is that your view regarding the recent representative polls - 2 independent, unrelated polls that came to (almost exactly) the same results - is wrong. That easy. I am telling you this, others are telling you this, and you are still stubbornly refusing to accept facts. The polls are reliable and checkable sources. And unlike the numbers given by the CIA, the NGOs who conducted the polls actually describe there methods in detail. Your speculations regarding the methods of the CIA are not a proof at all. Your word is not gospel. You do not accept the polls, because they simply do not support your Pashtun ethno-centric and anti-Tajik POV. It does not matter what the main purpose of the polls was. At the end, there is a direct question - a question that was answered by some 6000 randomly picked individuals from all across Afghanistan. And based on that, the ethnic numbers given in those polls are - by the law of mathematics - the most reliable numbers we have. Who cares if you are able to understand that or not?! By the way: it is funny that you mention Louis Dupree. Because it was you who removed the numbers provided by Dupree in the Encyclopaedia Iranica, claiming that they are "too old and unreliable". Interestingly, Dupree's numbers from 20 years ago are closer to the recent polls than the CIA numbers. That is your notorious "selective quoting" ... Tajik (talk) 12:38, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I have just blocked both of these editors for 24 hours, on the basis of a "battlefield" approach in which each editor accuses the other of promoting a given ethnicity. Both editors have been warned that they are operating in a domain that is under arbitration sanctions, and if this problem can't be gotten under control, substantially longer blocks will follow. Looie496 (talk) 17:09, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Incident at Mortal Kombat II
User:Asperchu and I have conflicting ideas on how to proceed on an edit to the page concerning a rumored (but heavily cited) remake of the video game. I revert his entire edit as he rewrites the page to create more appropriate edits but also removes the conflicting information as well. We have been discussing it at Talk:Mortal Kombat II but it is to no avail as consensus cannot be established. This fails under WP:CIVIL and Content Issues and almost goes under WP:3RR. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 19:22, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd also like to note the personal attack on User:Geoff B that this same user has made. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 19:39, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Blocked 24 hours for this. Courcelles 20:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * FINISH HIM! Half  Shadow  20:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That was a tad inappropriate, HalfShadow. Nevertheless, the block was good. — MC10 ( T • C • GB •L)  22:49, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Given the subject, I thought it was kinda apt. What can I say; some of 'em work, some of 'em don't... Half  Shadow  22:53, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yup, I also thought it was funny :-) Finish Him will be understood by anybody familiar with the Mortal Kombat games. And I checked again and :-) ...yup, still funny. --HighKing (talk) 22:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Support the humor. I rofled.  -- Jayron  32  02:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Hilarity 1-0. Shadowjams (talk) 09:01, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Multiple accounts abuse at the refdesk
See contribs. Thanks. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 10:15, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Blocked. Same idiot has been haunting the humanities' reference desk a couple of days ago. Hope our range block and edit filter colleagues can throttle it.  Favonian (talk) 10:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

It's continuing; now. → ROUX   ₪  13:23, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Not too sure a range block is indicated. I saw a single ip edit that was vandalism and I reverted it. The User:Laser elements account is blocked already. Am I missing some ip issues here? Glad to figure a range block but I need some numbers. JodyBtalk 13:47, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Apparently at least some of the edits are coming via Tor nodes, which is a problem. Not sure if they all are. you'd have to look at deleted revisions from Saturday evening (yes, this has been ongoing since then) to find original IPs. → ROUX   ₪  13:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, I took a look at the deleted revisions. Most are from registered accounts, likely socks, who have now been blocked indef and their ip's were autoblocked to prevent further account creation. I can't range block registered accounts as I don't have checkuser status and cannot discover the underlying ip address(es). There are a few ip's which were troublesome but they are to far spread apart to range block. I think whack-a-mole is the only option here. Sorry. It has been a mess. JodyBtalk 14:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure they're using proxies so a range block would be impossible even for a checkuser. The 3 times they have edited via an unmasked IP, the IP's have geolocated to France, Germany, and Canada respectively, and all three of the IP's were found to be Tor nodes and have been blocked for 3 months.  I think it's unlikely that this is actually multiple people.  —  Soap  —  14:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * See EF 372 - obviously can't be a permanent solution, but should help for now. NawlinWiki (talk) 16:02, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * There's been upwards of 30 of them so far. I've suggested it to another admin, but why not just SP the page? The filter from yesterday doesn't seem to be working anymore. Half  Shadow  17:02, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Regulars at the refdesks complain when they get semiprotected. Apparently the disruption is more useful than IPs having to get accounts and wait a couple of days. → ROUX   ₪  17:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Please see this investigation for more details. I've blocked more Tor nodes today than I have even seen since I've started here. If more accounts pop up, please add to the case or ping me. TN <b style="color:midnightblue; font-size:larger;">X</b> Man  17:37, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Page protection please
I know that these usually go to the page protection board but I feel this should be done as quickly as possible per the history of the article. Apparently some IP's are having some fun with writing inappropriate things that got revdel but also redirecting it. I would appreciate an administrator giving this article protection for a while to allow the article to calm down with the behavior going on. Thanks in advance, -- Crohnie Gal Talk  10:37, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Protected for three weeks. SirFozzie (talk) 10:42, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much, I appreciate it. -- Crohnie Gal Talk  11:11, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, this too can be closed. Again, thank you SirFozzie, -- Crohnie Gal  Talk  14:25, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Revdel needed?
I rolled back this edit, but it occurs to me that it should probably be deleted, as it appears to name an actual individual. Deor (talk) 10:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Brandywell Stadium
Bad administration on the part of User:SarekofVulcan. He/She has page protected the  as there is a content dispute but has protected the wrong vesion. The current version was edited by a user who was subsequently blocked by SarekofVulcan for edit warring but Sarek then failed to revert the page back to its original content. I raised this point on his/her talk page only for them to ignore my comments and over an hour later protect the page for a month. The page was reverted by a user who failed to join the discussion topic and gather consensus before making the change. Now that the page is protected in the wrong format, the blocked user has no incentive to join the discussion. This is not the first time Sarek has been involved in bad administration. This needs to be looked at.Factocop (talk) 15:07, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * you did notify sarek right, anyways why did he block it, the edit war ended days ago on the 28th, which resulted in both you getting sanctioned, (sorry for yelling at you earlier), it should be unlocked so you can revet me back to yours since the conflict is over now (unless northern comes back and stars another edit war)--Lerdthenerd (talk) 15:11, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I've noticed there is an argument between you and virtualrevolution on sareks talk page, that maybe the reason for the page protection, since he reverted you first before Northerncountries did--Lerdthenerd (talk) 15:15, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Factocop, given that you were also edit-warring and using edit-summaries describing a simple content dispute revert as "vandalism" you're probably lucky you weren't blocked yourself. Given this, and the fact that any article protection is guaranteed to be The Wrong Version for someone, I do not believe there is any administrative action to be taken here. Sarek could not roll back and protect in a content dispute, that is only available in cases of material appearing in the article that must be removed per policy, which doesn't apply here. Black Kite (t) (c) 15:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Especially as I've just noticed that diff above was your first edit after a previous block for edit-warring. I think I'd just leave the issue alone, if I were you. Black Kite (t) (c) 15:21, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I've notified Sarek--Lerdthenerd (talk) 15:22, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

First of, Black_Kite, I wasnt sure that it was a content dispute given that User:NorthernCounties made the revision with out contributed to the discussion so for all I know it was vandalism. either way describing a comment as vandalism is hardly a cause for blocking. If you check the discussion on the topic you will see that there was no objection to the change and that SarekofVulcan actually agreed to the version of the page prior to NorthernCounties revision.Factocop (talk) 15:23, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Black_Kite, I wouldnt lecture me given your chequered past with blocking - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=block&user=&page=User%3ABlack+Kite&year=&month=-1&tagfilter=.Factocop (talk) 15:30, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * To the first part; that's not the point. Continuing edit-warring when you've just come off a block for the same, plus describing non-vandalism as such is a reason for blocking.  As for the second part - yes, I blocked myself twice by mistake.  I can't remember now if I did it as an existentialist thing or purely because I clicked the wrong button in the form.  Probably a combination of both.  Who knows? Black Kite (t) (c) 15:38, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Well I would consider my block for edit warring as unjust anyway given that Sarek blocked me while participating in the same topic. But my blocking was for apparent edit warring on a completely different topic so I am not sure what your point is...and like I said before there was no way to tell that it was not vandalism given that the user did not contribute to the discussion. who knows? This has gone off topic ever since you joined....anyway If you check the discussion on the topic you will see that there was no objection to the change and that SarekofVulcan actually agreed to the version of the page prior to NorthernCounties revision. Can you see that?Factocop (talk) 15:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * you will see that there was no objection to the change What do you call this then Factocop? I specifically requested that you leave the Irish translation and I have since added a reference so it would also be inappropriate to revert to the "correct" version as the article has moved on and I suggest you do the same. Bjmullan (talk) 15:58, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I call that an unsubstantiated source. For the record the source that Bjmullan refers to is entirely in Irish and has no english translation. God knows how any one can validate the content or reliability of this source. Bjmullan, the onnus is on you to provide evdience and reliable sources to back up these references and citations. I was acting in good faith when I said that I would give you time to find a reliable source for the content before undo'ing NorthernCounties reversion, but I have acted given that VirtualRevolution requested the page to be page protected in its current form. I knew that my comments would be ignored by you as soon as the page was protected.Factocop (talk) 16:11, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Factocop your comments do not address the statement you made above (i.e. you will see that there was no objection to the change). Bjmullan (talk) 16:20, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * "God knows how any one can validate the content or reliability of this source." Fortunately Amalthea . Divine intervention not required. <b style="color:#000">TFOW</b><b style="color:#A0070C">R</b> 16:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Bjmullan, The objection I am referring to was prior to your involvement. I have left a comment on your User page.Factocop (talk) 16:25, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I ran the expression "Tobar an Fhíoruisce" through google translate, and it comes up as "wal the spring water". Not sure what "wal" refers to, but in general the other editor's translation seems to be in the neighborhood. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:58, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I think wal should be well. I think there should be a direct reference and not sourced from a google translator. But at present the current source is entirely in Irish with no mention of the Brandywell stadium or its literal translation...aside from that I still think that Sarek has a few questions to answer.Factocop (talk) 17:08, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If you know what the "true" answer actually is, edit-warring to have it removed seems rather silly. You would be better off finding a good source. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:10, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Can I ask again, and hopefully for the last time - this is WP:ANI, what administrative action do you believe needs to occur, given that the protection clearly isn't going to be altered. This isn't the place to sort out your content dispute with Bjmullan, and should be closed now unless there's a good answer to the above. Black Kite (t) (c) 17:22, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Not only should this thread be closed, but the current version is just fine, as I've been saying here. While the sourcing is not rock-solid, indications are that the translation given is pretty close, so there's no reason to edit-war to have it removed. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:31, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Thats the problem Baseball_Bugs, no one has been able to find a good and reliable source...I dont actually know what the 'true' answer is, I am just going on what is currently on the WP in the 'Footbnote' section but it is also unsourced. I have posted on the Brandywell discussion page and on User:Bjmullan's talk page in the the hope that he can find a reliable source as Bjmullan is against the removal of the Irish name and translation but as yet he has been unable to find a reliable source.Factocop (talk) 17:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Like I said, if there's a fact about an inanimate object that is probably true, non-controversial, but not definitively sourced, edit-warring over it makes no sense. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:23, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * According to EO, "wal" is one of the ancient roots for "well". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:31, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps...but given that Bjmullan is so keen to have it included, the onnus is on him to provide reliable sources....but this is a side plot. I want to know why SarekofVulcan did not revert back to the agreed page content after blocking a user for edit warring...and why did he not address my comments on this topic before protecting the page? as yet he has neither reponded to this thread or the discussion on his talk page.Factocop (talk) 17:31, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Because when a page is frozen, typically there is no effort made to revert to one editor's opinion of the "correct" version, unless the "current" version is a gross violation of the rules - which this isn't. The better question is, why were you edit-warring to remove a non-controversial fact that is fairly certainly accurate? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:43, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, thats the thing its not farely certainly accurate. As yet there are no sources to prove that the Irish name given is correct for the stadium name. Ok fare enough, google translator has thrown up a bad translation of "wal the spring water" but that is a tranlsation of the Irish term. There is no mention of the Brandywell Stadium. I have been involved in discussions with Bjmullan in the past where by reliable sources have been requested so it seems only fair in the interests of accuracy and given that this is suppose to be an encyclopdeia that sources be used rather than its 'farely certainly accurate' I think? maybe? could be wrong? No word from Sarek yet...Factocop (talk) 17:57, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe you didn't hear this when I said it two or three times before: Edit-warring over a non-controversial fact makes no sense. This is not a BLP, it's a building, and the translation seems to be on the mark or close to it, as per Google Translate. It's not like he was claiming it means "Death to the English Pigs" or something like that. And it's not worth getting yourself blocked over. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Breaking down "Tobar an Fhíor uisce" into its 4 base words, it translates most literally as "well the true water". Presumably the modifiers follow the noun, and "true" is not an adjective often used for water in English, so "the pure water well" would work. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Inappropriate move from user page to article space
For reasons best known to the editor, User:Ejhaay has moved his user and talk pages to Edward Joseph Tagle. I'm not sure how to fix this. The histories of Talk:Edward Joseph Tagle and User talk :Ejhaay need to be merged as I added content to his talk page before realising what had happened. I haven't notified the user of this discussion because his talk page is part of the problem. --AussieLegend (talk) 16:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ Both moved back to userspace. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 17:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree with this action, by . -- Cirt (talk) 17:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Article at User:Klitem1999 spam?
I'm unsure what exactly to do about this article. It is linked from craigslist, and does not assert notability. It's also been edited only by one user, presumably the founder or an officer. I would delete for CSD A7, but this is in userspace. G11 may apply, but I'm not certain enough to just delete outright. Therefore I'm bringing it here for further review. --Chris (talk) 22:19, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Feels like G11, but I'm no expert. Vodello (talk) 22:57, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * And CSD'd as G11, unambiguous promotion or advertising. Applies in userspace as it does in articles. Rodhull  andemu  00:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reviewing the article. FYI, my reservation about G11 was not about where it applies (as the general criteria apply everywhere) but whether the article content was unambiguous promotion.  --Chris (talk) 04:13, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Doesn't really hurt to tag it anyway if you get a spammy feeling from it. At worst you're wrong. Half  Shadow  04:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Good point, I'll probably just do that in the future. As an admin I didn't really see the point of tagging since I could just delete, but that would be a better way to request review from another admin rather than bringing it here.  --Chris (talk) 21:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Bad Faith Editing

 * Hah! I see what you did there. Half Shadow  17:24, 1 November 2010 (UTC)





























GoodFaithEditor (talk) 14:44, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * ? I think I'm going to need slightly more commentary than simply a diff, because the first one I looked at seemed fine - an improvement to the article, in fact. <b style="color:#000">TFOW</b><b style="color:#A0070C">R</b> 14:48, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Never mind - I suspect I showed a little too much good faith in my response. <b style="color:#000">TFOW</b><b style="color:#A0070C">R</b> 14:51, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Good faith is never a bad thing, unless its an editor named 'GoodFaithEditor'. Syrthiss (talk) 14:52, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Strangely enough, User:ObviousSock is still available. I would have guessed that they'd try that first... --Onorem♠Dil 14:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Not anymore I'm not.ObviousSock (talk) 15:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Didn't you read WP:BEANS? I'm tempted to administer a large wet fish.  The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 20:13, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Blocked sock is blocked. Edits by banned users are reverted on sight. Syrthiss (talk) 14:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Could you provide a little more detail, please? Did you notify User:Ohnoitsjamie? Are you aware that s/he is reverting edits made by a blocked editor? → ROUX   ₪  14:50, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Most of these seem to be cosmetic changes. The few that aren't seem to improve the articles. /shrug. --Onorem♠Dil 14:52, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Feel free to reinstate any of the edits that you feel improve the article. Then they would be your edits, and not the edits of a blocked user. Syrthiss (talk) 14:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Edits by socks o banned users are required to be reverted like that. Access Denied 14:59, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I was responding to the complaint as if it was actually made in good faith. The changes that I said improved the articles were those made by Ohnoitsjamie. (Added comment after edit conflict: No, edits by banned users are not required to be reverted like that, although they can be reverted for any reason...) --Onorem♠Dil 15:03, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * OIC. Syrthiss (talk) 15:05, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

BenOneHundred
seems a little suspicious. All of his edits so far are to AFDs, with flawed reasoning:


 * "Looks notable to me."
 * "It is obviously not Random house, but size does not necessarily equal notable."
 * "Agree with Slon02"
 * "I agree with Rick"
 * "Family Guy is awesome and may become iconic, and writing one episode is notable enough."

I strongly suspect sockpuppetry. Should I be looking for a checkuser yet? Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Otters want attention) 16:55, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Might be an idea; bizarre one though, mixture of Keeps and Deletes. Black Kite (t) (c) 17:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Who do you think it is? --HighKing (talk) 17:41, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * That's the real issue; "looking suspicious" isn't really enough unless it looks suspiciously like someone in particular. Remember that checkuser isn't a fishing expedition, and it doesn't seem that the user is supporting the views of any particular other user. <font face="Verdana" color="#900000">Giftiger<font color="#FF0000">Wunsch  <font face="Tahoma" color="#0060A0">[BODY DOUBLE]  17:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * With edits first starting off as editing Afd, it one of the key charecteristics of a sock. Sock case filled. No need to know who it is (per CU policy), just need to have evidence that multiple accounts may exist. (aka not fishing, see Checking an account where the alleged sockmaster is unknown, but there is reasonable suspicion of sockpuppetry is not fishing @ WP:Checkuser) DQ.alt (t)  (e)    17:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ <font face="Verdana" color="#900000">Giftiger<font color="#FF0000">Wunsch  <font face="Tahoma" color="#0060A0">[BODY DOUBLE]  17:55, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism-only IP user
I'm not sure if this is the right place to report this, but I think admins ought to take a look at the contributions from. As far as I can tell, all of this user's contributions are vandalism. Some of the most recent examples are. This user has already received numerous warnings about vandalism in their user talk, and been blocked for it twice. --Captain Occam (talk) 20:13, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Eyes requested at Lauren Hodges
An WP:SPA,, has been disruptively removing non-contentious, referenced content from the WP:BLP Lauren Hodges. I have tried various forms of dispute resolution, including discussing the matter with this editor on his/her talk page and the article talk page. I also raised the matter at WP:BLP/N a few days ago, but got no assistance. At one point, the article was protected because of edit warring related to this matter (I admit I was not entirely blameless there).

Although the actress is notable enough for a BLP (several notable movie and TV appearances), there is a distinct lack of references available. Nevertheless, the current version is fully referenced and contains nothing that would violate WP:BLP and related policies.

I would appreciate some administrator assistance and/or guidance, even if it's just to kick me in the backside and tell me I'm doing it wrong. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:59, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Clearly something has to happen here. MR90 has been repeatedly removing sourced information with entirely misguided reasons, and it has been explained repeatedly that those reasons are flawed. It started with MR90 believing that the information is entirely not encyclopedic and now it appears to be "two users not involved in editing dispute slimvirgin and orangemike found hodges has dubious notability. therefore biographical material inappropriate on wikipedia page." thus no biographical information at all can be included. Which is quite silly. Underlying issue might be that the source is a biography at AMC.com, which I believe shouldn't really pose a problem.  X  eworlebi (talk) 22:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Note, MR90 has been blocked for one day due to disruptive editing. But I doubt MR90 won't continue after that block has ended.  X  eworlebi (talk) 22:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * AGF unless that happens. If it does, bring it to me or back to this thread on ANI and one of us will sort it out. Toddst1 (talk) 22:35, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

User:Kunwar Manoj Kumar Raghav
Above user is vaguely "edit warring" to get the content at Raghav (Raghuvanshi) (article about an Indian clan) onto the page Raghav (about a singer). This included a cut/paste of Raghav (Raghuvanshi) -> Raghav and then Raghav -> Raghav Mathura. I've suggested to the user that he/she opens a move discussion to decide which is the primary topic (I am not sure) but they have simply continued to revert my corrections. As it stands Raghav is a cut/paste move and I am at 3RR (plus have work to do). Can someone try and get the editor to enter into dialogue and explain the issues involved. Cheers --Errant[tmorton166] $(chat!)$ 11:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I have left a message as well a formal 3RR warning on the user's talk page. Favonian (talk) 11:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I noticed he carried on and started using an IP sock, so I've blocked both 48hrs. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks all :) --Errant[tmorton166] $(chat!)$ 13:02, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

SRQ again, at her very worst
Community Banned Editor SRQ's latest post is so far beyond the pale I am almost at a loss as what to say, other than she is a liar and a very sick person.. I believe that this time she has managed to break every conceivable rule in Wikipedia.DocOfSoc (talk) 07:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * this is an actual WP:DIFF or what you are talking about, for convenience. S.G.(GH) ping! 07:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I've revdeleted that. Broadcasting a banned user's allegations at ANI is not really in keeping with WP:RBI. Rd232 talk 09:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

TYVMDocOfSoc (talk) 08:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Removed edit and blocked for 2 weeks. <font color="#C50">Nakon 08:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Revision Deletion
Not sure if this is the right place, but can an admin delete the edit summary for The Proposal (film) written by Israelirussianlk (u) (t)? You might also want to block the user. Although the current vandalism is the first in three years, as far as I can tell, he's never done anything but vandalize.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Troll-standard vandalism, personally I think we over-use this rev-delete function. I'll take a look at the contribs of the user. S.G.(GH) ping! 18:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Blocked by, but I see no reason to delete that edit summary; in my opinion it does not meet the criteria for redaction. It is just common vandalism. -- Sh i r ik ( Questions or Comments? ) 18:32, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Correct. It's just routine vandal blithering. On another note, though, when an account idle for three years becomes active with vandalism in a new area, it's reasonable to suspect that the account has been compromised.  Does Wikipedia have a system watching for password-cracking attempts?  --John Nagle (talk) 19:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow. You don't find the phrase "AMERICUNT FEMINIST DIPSHITS" grossly "insulting, degrading, or offensive"? No wonder no one at Wikipedia can agree on a definition of civility.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * It is, but the offender is blocked and there is really little need to remove random crap (which is not pointed at anybody in particular) from the history. Marking as resolved.  Sandstein   19:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * For my edification then (as it's really no skin off my nose), does the grossly offensive material have to be directed at a particular person to warrant deletion? The policy itself doesn't actually say that, but if that's its practical implementation, I'll try to remember it in the future.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * It's more that this sort of stuff is so very common that mostly we don't even bother to rev-delete it unless there's a possibility that even deeply hidden in the history it could cause actual offence or other trouble to somebody, so there's not really a need to inform admins about every such incident. Blocking the account is higher on the priority list.  Sandstein   20:10, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

It's nothing more tun of the mill than most vandals who have just learned to swear. Fuck, shit and cunt are all on Wikipedia anyway why censor an edit summary mentioning them? S.G.(GH) ping! 20:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Dealing with personal attacks
How should I react to and deal with comments of this sort from User:Yinzland. It initially began as sniping during a discussion in article talk (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) but it began ramping up to a rather disturbing level rather quickly. After the 6th post (6), I sent the user a personal message about civility (7), asking them to please dial it back some. That message was fairly ignored, judging from a subsequent post in article talk (8). At that point I decided that new user or not, this had to stop, and a personal request had failed, so I posted an 'No Personal Attacks' template on his talk page (9) and warned him in article talk (10) that the personal attacks needed to stop. The response i received in his usertalk was:
 * "I think I've made it clear why I've chosen to talk down to you. You actually attempted to hijack a wikipedia page by adding ridiculous and not even all that amusing misinformation simply for your own amusement. You proved this by your original wording of the paragraph and by your countless hypocritical claims of speculation. If this was a serious subject that you were arguing for, I may have respected that. But dude, you're fighting to legitimize misinformation. I have no respect for that. But to cut to the chase (given that this is MY talk page) shut the fuck up you obnoxious little bitch."

and from article talk:
 * "Shush sweetie, the adults are talking."

Wikipedia has rather specific rules here against precisely this sort of behavior. For my part, I was advocating an adherence to policy in the article that few others were, Yinzland included. At no point, however, did my behavior take on the attack-y edge Yinzland has. The user has been warned three times, and they have chosen to ignore each request to either back off or seek to be more civil. I am not sure how to proceed, but I don't feel like editing in a combat zone. I am thinking that he's earned a block, but then, I'm the victim of the personal attacks; of course, I'm going to want that. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 06:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I've notified the user of this complaint. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 06:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Blocked 3 days for NPA/HARASS, mainly per, which is completely unacceptable. –MuZemike 06:55, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Endorse block this user is the one who may wish to revisit Websters for the term "adult". S.G.(GH) ping! 07:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Strongly endorse block, per above. Not acceptable. <font color="#C50">Nakon  08:13, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the assistance. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 14:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Possible legal threat
I've blocked for this edit. It appears threatening to me but I could be wrong. I've e-mailed the foundation but have not blanked the page or rev/del'd the edits. If I have overlooked something or if my actions were incorrect, please let me know. It's late, so I may not be around. Any action that is necessary might need to be taken in my absence. Thanks  Tide  rolls  05:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Deleted the page, the Foundation may, obviously, reverse the deletion if they feel it is appropriate. <font color="#C50">Nakon 06:52, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Good block. That was a very obvious and unambiguous legal threat. Given that the threat was the user's very first edit ever, made 36 minutes after registering, is it possible that this is/was a sockpuppet? Does the diff give us enough data to figure out whose it is? UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 14:04, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Troubling email after an SPI case
FT2 (Talk 14:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

So two days ago I dealt with a sockpuppet investigation. It was a pretty simple case - handful of confirmed users editing on the same topic (Michele Bowie), and I blocked them all. Recently I got an email from the sockmaster requesting an unblock saying that all of the accounts edit from the same router, but are different people who just support the topic. I responded reminding them that they were engaging in meatpuppetry, and canvassing like that is unacceptable.

The response I got was CC'd to the topic (Michele Bowie) and another person I don't recognize. (I've been told to paraphrase the email here.) The response basically said that all of the people will defend themselves in a court of law, that they all have the right to express their individual opinions. It then goes on to say that "contacts of interest" have been started based on this being on Wiki, and that this discussion has been put into field notes for future study. And then it goes into a diatribe about using the N word on Wikipedia and so on.

So basically I'm posting here because I'm at a loss as to how to proceed. I can post the email if I am so requested, but there are stipulations on actually doing that. There aren't really any legal threats, but using Wiki for "future study" or whatever is a little strange. Personally I'm disinclined to grant an unblock, but a little further input as to how to proceed would be most appreciated. —  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 02:25, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Was the email from some official site or a freebie (Yahoo!, GMail, etc.)? My first impression is that they're only trying to scare you, but they'd likely lose any lawsuit anyway, and any disruptive "study" would be ended with some rangeblocks, I would imagine. / ƒETCH COMMS  /  03:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Tell 'em they're definately not getting back in now; post a link to No legal threats, get on with real business. Half  Shadow  03:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Fetch: the email came from "legal_dept@" and then a consulting firm that, according to the Bowie article, she is the CEO of. Really just furthering the COI here. —  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 03:32, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Also explain to them that this is not the real world and they don't have all the rights they think they do. Half  Shadow  03:38, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I just closed Articles for deletion/Michele Bowie and deleted the article that seems to be motivating all this. Perhaps they will find something else to do now. --RL0919 (talk) 03:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Handled by email. Explanation given and information provided to user in the event they have further issues, including contact details for OTRS and how to request an unblock. Resolved as far as the on-wiki thread goers. As far as this thread goes, Wikipedia is very much in the real world. FT2 (Talk 14:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Justus Maxumus redux
Could some uninvolved admin review Justus Maximus's unblock request. It has been sitting on his talkpage since lunchtime Sunday. The report that led to the block is here. I'd do it, but he kind of mentions me in the unblock request. Thanks. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:10, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅, <font color="#C50">Nakon 07:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Duck Block Requested
I don't think there's really a need for a SPI on Macfan234, since this is a recently emerged quacker of an old vandal SPA that is indefinitely blocked. If this admission of being Mackfan123 isn't enough on its own (note the "uncanny" similarity in the usernames ;>), the brief and sporadic edits of Mackfan234 are not considerably "constructive"... for the most part. Thank you :> <font color="#000" size="2">Doc <font color="#999999">talk  23:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It hath gone where the woodbine twineth. Looie496 (talk) 00:06, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

RFC/U needs closing
This RFC needs to be closed with some sort of rational recommendation. This editor has been given ample opportunity to deal with the issues raised in the RFC and this discussion on his talk page fairly well sums up the editor’s view of the WP world. Those of us involved in the RFC and with this editor will move on once this one is closed.--Mike Cline (talk) 00:49, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If no one else has taken this one on within the next day or so, I'll close it. Jclemens (talk) 07:51, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Nevermind. Looks like I commented in the last ANI thread on him, so someone else can do the honors. Jclemens (talk) 08:38, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Dropping a link to the previous ANI for reference. --M ASEM (t) 14:23, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Block review


I have blocked this IP to prevent disruption. I believe that I may crossed over into content disputation, however, and would appreciate input. This IP has been adding what appears to be promotion of a neologism and a website/theory without any discussion across several holocaust/genocide related articles. I've not reverted any of their edits since their block in the event I have over-stepped. If I need to unblock, please let me know. Thanks  Tide  rolls  16:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Good block. Clear spamming. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, you'd know... <font color="#C4112F">╟─TreasuryTag► belonger ─╢ 16:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Endorse block—textbook case of intentional disruption. <font color="#C4112F">╟─TreasuryTag► belonger ─╢ 16:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Endorse block - F ASTILY  <font color="#4B0082">(T ALK ) 18:24, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Endorse block – Good block. — MC10 ( T • C • GB •L)  22:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Endorse block I n k a 8 8 8 <sup style="color:black;">Contribs  Talk  03:15, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * IANAA, but endorse block. Appears to be well-reasoned and properly-timed.  Saebvn (talk) 02:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Everything Everywhere
Hi. Could an admin with a bit more clue than me (not difficult) please take a look at recent contributions by 91.109.7.124 to Everything Everywhere? These are 1 2 and 3 - I suspect that the editor is not genuine, and may be up to no good, but I don't know, and hope you might. The editing has bad spelling, which does not inspire confidence, and neither, really, does the whois record for the domain, which sounds a bit improbable. The address given looks on Google Maps like an ordinary street of houses - I can't see where a comms HQ might fit in there. Sorry, I know I should WP:AGF and all that but it did strike me all as a bit unusual. Can a clued-up Sherlock forensic interwebs type please have a look? If it is genuine I will apologize most prettily but I am worried that it may be fraud/joke/phishing/whatever and I'd rather err on the side of caution. Thanks and best wishes, DBaK (talk) 22:26, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * As a non-admin I've given the user a warning. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 22:29, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that very fast response. I continue to worry that it has actual fraudulent potential to harm people - what happens to data typed in if the links are followed? I still feel very dubious about the whole thing - if it is real, then their approach is - er - unusual, and if it's a joke then why go to the trouble of getting a domain? I'm confused. Best wishes DBaK (talk) 22:34, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll confess myself to be just as baffled as to the motivation here. It certainly looks non-genuine, but if you look at the links provided on the linked (very dodgy-looking) site they go to perfectly valid pages on genuine T-Mobile and Orange websites. One way or another these edits are either (a) wrong or (b) promotional, though, so continued reverting is definitely the way forward. ~ mazca  talk 22:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks like someone trying to sneak in a dab of spam. Half  Shadow  22:43, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I suppose what is/was making me nervous was the fact that they'd gone to the trouble of getting a domain, and it's unclear to me what the function of this was. I know the links on their page go to real sites but they also do so from within a frame so not all users can be quite clear what's happening, and I was mildly worried that the frame might somehow facilitate access to information to which they are not entitled. However, it seems to have stopped, at least for now, and thanks, all, for your help. Best wishes DBaK (talk) 08:28, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Domain names are available for as little as $1. More popular domains (like "dot com") normally are available for as little as $10, if the name isn't already taken. It is not at all unusual for schoolchildren to own one or multiple domain names. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 08:38, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It looks like an amateur attempt at a phishing site. The page linked from Wikipedia contains a frame of "http://simsnetwork.dyndns.org/eve.htm", which currently maps to "host86-136-116-14.range86-136.btcentralplus.com", which is some British Telecom DSL line. It hosts something that looks like an Orange or T-Mobile page.  I'd expect to find some hostile code, or something siphoning off logins, but I'm not seeing that; it refers users to the real sites to fill in forms.  Anyway, it's not notable, so kill that link. --John Nagle (talk) 04:10, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Hoops gza moving albums/songs unnecessarily
User:Hoops gza appears to be on a spree of moving articles on albums and songs, adding completely unnecessarily disambiguation. logs. I've explained that this isn't necessary and asked them to stop, but they are ignoring me. I have to go offline for a while, so maybe someone could sort them out? If not I'll deal with it later. Thanks.--Michig (talk) 18:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

These edits help Wikipedia. I already explained this on your talk page, but you refused to listen. These article (album) titles have other article (song) titles of the same name. There is a clear need to distinguish them from each other. Also, there is no case in which clarification is a "bad" thing. It can only help, never harm, both now and in the future. You have absolutely no argument for why these edits are "unnecessary".Hoops gza (talk) 18:39, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Friendly word of advice: Listen to Michig on music topics very carefully, if you want to avoid looking silly. Jclemens (talk) 18:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The entire point of the (album) and (song) additions to the article names is to distinguish between songs and albums of the same name. If there are multiple songs of the same name, then we get into more detail - usually in the manner you suggest (see, as an example, 1 (disambiguation)). But when there is only one song with a particular name, it is absolutely unnecessary to differentiate beyond (song). Clarification can be a bad thing if it results in article titles that are less clear than they were before the clarification took place - which is why some of your moves have already been reverted. Please stop and discuss the matter here before performing any more moves, Hoops gza. Thanks. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 19:03, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm also concerned by the rate at which you were moving pages - that's an awful lot of moves just in the past two hours or so. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 19:05, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * You are now edit warring - So (album) has been moved back to its correct title four times by two different editors including myself. I strongly suggest you read the advice above and stop before the inevitable happens. Black Kite (t) (c) 19:24, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * ...And I've move-protected that one for 6 hours, to cool this off. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 19:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Re. some of my page moves; I hope that you are aware that the world of music is nearly limitless, which means that no editor or group of editors on Wikipedia knows all of the songs for a given song title (all cases where different songs or albums share the same common name), which means that at any time an article can be created for a song or an album where an article for a different song of the same name already exists. What I've done is save the trouble of future editing. Also, on a similar point, just because one particular song with a given title is famous does not make it the only song in existence with that title. So it is inaccurate to simply add "(song)" or "(album)" to those articles' titles. This is particularly true with titles that are common phrases or words, for instance, there is probably only one album in existence called "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band", whereas there likely exist multiple albums called "Transformer".Hoops gza (talk) 19:28, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Nobody needs to know all of the albums and songs that exist, because disambiguation is not needed until new album or song articles are actually created. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

To prove this, I just searched for albums with the title "Transformer" on a music site (which, of course, is likely missing many releases), and there are at least eight different albums called Transformer. Just because Wikipedia only has an article for one of these does not mean that Wikipedia should imply that it is the only album in existence with that name.Hoops gza (talk) 19:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

You're missing one of the several points I'm making. I've saved other editors the effort of editing if or when that might happen. Another example that clarification never hinders, only helps.Hoops gza (talk) 19:37, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * That's as may be, but we currently only have one article on any album named "Transformer", and that is the controlling factor here. The title is not definitive, the article is - and there the article clearly notes that it is the Lou Reed album and none other. If the other "Transformer" albums were notable, then they could be listed at Transformer (disambiguation). You're missing the point, though - multiple editors have expressed concern over your position, and we need you to Stop Moving Articles until this has been discussed. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 19:43, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * And seriously - moving The Smiths (album) to The Smiths (The Smiths album)? That's not just pointless, that's absurd.  Also, you didn't, as is required when moving pages, fix any of the double redirects made by your page moves (although that's probably just as well, since most of these will undoubtedly be undone). Black Kite (t) (c) 19:41, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: the editor just reverted my fixing of that one as well. It would be a good idea at this point for someone uninvolved to have a serious word about why edit-warring against consensus is a seriously poor idea. I've moved that particular obvious example back again, but I'm going to stop whilst the editor is behaving like this, it's a waste of my time (and everyone else's). Black Kite (t) (c) 19:44, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Erm, how is changing them all now, when only a few may need changing in the future, "saving effort", exactly? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:48, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I have Warned Hoops gza against further page moves, pending this discussion. Diff. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 19:59, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

It seems pretty clear that consensus is against these moves. Any dissenting voices before I move the remaining articles back to their original titles and revert the associated link changes?--Michig (talk) 20:31, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I've restored the articles to their original titles. Could maybe use another pair of eyes in case I missed something.--Michig (talk) 06:30, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

He's edit-warring as well: if it weren't for WP:INVOLVED, I'd block him myself. He has been repeatedly reinserting the statement "Going to California" and "When the Levee Breaks" are references to John Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath. into Led Zeppelin IV despite my having pointed out to him that "When the Levee Breaks" is a 1927 song that cannot possibly make reference to a 1939 novel. I've pointed out WP:BURDEN to him both in edit summaries and on his talk page to no avail.&mdash;Kww(talk) 00:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Six reverts and counting.&mdash;Kww(talk) 00:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * 3rr report here: Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring Dpmuk (talk) 00:48, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Black Kite got him 2 minutes before I did. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:49, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Aye. I was involved above, but I'm not on this article, and regardless this is a pretty obvious violation of 3RR. Black Kite (t) (c) 00:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Eh, you were involved, but this is a clearcut case, you were blocking a user for active and ongoing disruption against unanimous consensus here, when he had full knowledge of the community's input here, and any other reasonable admin would have done the same thing. Jclemens (talk) 05:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

MickMacNee - talk protected.
was blocked per an earlier ANI thread. Some people were trying to negotiate an unblock on terms, but Mick wasn't cooperating. On seeing this edit summary, I concluded that the talking was futile and protected his page. It was immediately unprotected without discussion.

I think we are at the point where talking is obviously futile and this user should be considered community banned.--Scott Mac 22:04, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I note that PeterSymonds had already reblocked with talkpage disabled, that's probably a better way anyway.--Scott Mac 22:08, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Of note that has now been reverted. -- Eraserhead1 &lt;talk&gt; 22:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

So, two admin action have been reverted by with no discussion whatsoever? This is very poor. I'm still waiting explanations.--Scott Mac 22:20, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The answer is, of course, "Fish". Half  Shadow  22:22, 31 October 2010 (UTC)


 * (ec) (Disclaimer: I'm the admin who made the initial block; that discussion is now at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/BISE/October 2010.) The full protection was not a bad idea, since it also prevented others from edit-warring about the addition of unnecessary commentary (but that seems no longer a current problem). As with any potentially controversial reversal of an admin action, of course, HJ Mitchell should not have undone the protection without speaking to Scott MacDonald first. The same applies to changing the block parameters to restore talk page access, which HJ Mitchell has now also done apparently without talking to Peter Symonds, the admin who removed talk page access. Unless a good explanation is forthcoming, this reversal of two equivalent actions by two other admins has the flavor of a wheel war, and may need arbitral action to address.
 * I agree that MickMacNee seems to have no interest in discussing the reason for his block or conditions for a return to editing, and that therefore, in view of the aforementioned discussion, he is subject to a de facto community ban. I suggest that we leave it to the Arbitration Committee's Ban Appeals Subcommittee, which he apparently intends to seize of the matter, to take any further action that may be required with respect to this ban or block.  Sandstein   22:27, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Generally agree with Sandstein here - reversing the actions of two different admins without discussion is really not a good way to go about this, though I can see HJM's reasoning. I appreciate that there's a chance Mick may get back to editing with some appropriate restrictions, but it's also clear that he's in no mood to deal with it at the moment, and that the community's in no mood to listen. Protecting the talk page and encouraging him to go via the Ban Appeals Subcommittee is probably the best way of this situation moving forward without further anger from Mick and trolling from others. ~ mazca  talk 22:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Is there consensus to relock Mickmacnee's talkpage and refer him to the arbcom ban committee for any appeal?--Scott Mac 23:04, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems the best way forward to me. The discussion actually seemed to be deteriorating the situation. Courcelles 23:06, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I object. Removing talkpage access is a serious step that is not warranted here. Gimmetoo (talk) 23:08, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Mick's talkpage should be unlocked, IMHO. GoodDay (talk) 23:07, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I dislike McNee as much as he dislikes me, but I don't like to see anyone locked out of their talk page as it only serves to further bad will, If people don't want to see what he writes take it off their watchlist. If Arbcom ban him for ever and flog him off the site, then that's another matter, but so far that has not hapened. So leave the talk page unlocked..please.  Giacomo   23:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Lock it and get this sorted out ASAP. This whole episode is doing nothing by harm to the whole project. Either get Mick to agree to some very clearly defined restriction and if that can't happen throw away the keys. Bjmullan (talk) 23:17, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * There is a section on his talk page for Mick to suggest any editing restrictions for himself. Ask him if he is going suggest any for himself then take it from there. To be honest, if he refuses to take part in that then he's doing himself no favours and a talk page lock would then be appropriate. Jack forbes (talk) 23:24, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That's been done. He told us to go fuck ourselves.--Scott Mac 23:26, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * C'mon he was being pretty baited. I doubt he meant it to you personally.  Giacomo   23:34, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Really? Well, my opinion has just changed. If his reply to a request is go fuck yourself then locking the talk page might not be a bad idea. Jack forbes (talk) 23:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * PS; Do you have a diff for that Scott? Thanks. Jack forbes (talk) 23:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * several--Scott Mac 23:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This is the pertinent one I believe. That diff also as a comment about seeing admins "in hell" or before an ArbCom appeal-<font color="#999999" size="2">Cailil  <font color="#999999">talk 01:47, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Leave his talk page unlocked. That edit summary was pretty brutal, but no less than BilCat's utterly boneheaded comment that caused it - and I don't buy for one second that he was not attempting to bait Mick.  I've no opinion on his block, but if the people entering his talk page to discuss the larger issue do so with the intent of resolving the situation rather than inflame it, there is no need for a lock. Resolute 23:26, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * So what? Is he not in control of his actions? He didn't have to respond to the bait. If someone is baiting, take that up as a separate issue, but if Mickmacnee isn't in control of his actions and has caused this much drama already, throw away the key.--Crossmr (talk) 23:53, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Since Bwilkins added the suggestion that Mick discusses what restriction might be put in place here Mick has edited eight times at his talk page without once adding any suggestions of what restrictions might be place on him. The guy doesn't want to participate in any real discussion about how his behaviour can be changed in order to allow him to continuing editing here. Bjmullan (talk) 00:00, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * He didn't respond to it the first time. It was only after BilCat posted it a second time that he responded. If you want to add a civility parole on any unblock request, fine. But locking Mick's talk page did not appear necessary until someone seeking to inflame the situation came along. Given BilCat has agreed not to return, locking Mick's talk page could only be seen as punitive at this point. Resolute 00:05, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Personally, I support leaving Mick's page open to him in this case because he was indeed pretty badly baited, but if he does it again, I support cutting it off again immediately. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 08:47, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * It has been nearly four hours since I tried to discuss BilCat's block with the blocking admin. On the admin's talk page, an admin (Sandstein) and an editor also suggested unblocking. Two other editors, who I believe are admins, supported either an unblock (MilborneOne) or a reduction (Courcelles) on BillCat's talk page. BilCat agreed to avoid Mick's userspace pages, though it seems reasonable to exclude "obligatory" notices (ANI, AfD). Since the blocking admin appears to be offline, is there any reason not to unblock BilCat under this agreement? Gimmetoo (talk) 02:31, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It has now been over 12 hours since I tried to discuss with the admin who blocked BilCat, and still no reply. Gimmetoo (talk) 10:59, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Traditionally we give a large amount of lee-way to blocked editors, who tend to be understandably aggrieved that they're blocked. In this case there's also been a fair amount of baiting. My view is that—at this point—Mick should be free to edit his talkpage. If other editors persist in baiting Mick we should firstly consider full-protection. If Mick persists in using posts or edit summaries to breach WP:CIVIL we should consider revoking talkpage access. I'm aware, obviously, that both these things have already occurred; however, they occurred hot on the heels of Mick's block. Good faith editors were trying to de-escalate the situation, and I'd like to see that continue now that—hopefully—the attraction of wading into to a heated situation with unhelpful comments has diminished, and the attraction of mouthing off about blocking admins and baity editors has diminished. As regards BilCat's block: good block, but at this point it's punitive, not preventative - BilCat's indicated that they've learned from their mistake and won't repeat it. Further baiting—by any editor—should be dealt with primarily by full-protection, not blocks (obviously I've no objection to blocks used in conjunction with full-protection, where appropriate). <b style="color:#000">TFOW</b><b style="color:#A0070C">R</b> 09:16, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * If editors bait blocked editors, then we should act against the baiter, not the target. I support Mick having access to his talk page. Although he hasn't suggested any restrictions he may be willing to observe yet, he may do so later. Mjroots (talk) 09:40, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No argument from me, and that's exactly what happened here (hence BilCat being blocked right now). If the problem persists, however, Mick's talkpage may need to be protected. We shouldn't protect Mick's talkpage against one editor - obviously a block is the better option. Protection becomes the better option when multiple baiters are involved. <b style="color:#000">TFOW</b><b style="color:#A0070C">R</b> 09:47, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If only we could lock the talk page to all except admins and Mick. *sigh* Mjroots (talk)
 * Pages ending in .js behave that way. Gimmetoo (talk) 10:58, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I've never had contact with this editor before. If you would like I would be willing to politely ask him if he has any suggestions to help himself get unblocked.  I also think his page should be left open, at least for now, for this editor to be able to communicate with everyone. Anymore baiting, I suggests like what has be said, that the baiter be blocked.  -- Crohnie Gal  Talk  11:32, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd support an unblock of BilCat when he accepts that his actions to bait both HJM and Mick were wrong, and promises not to do so again. Personally, I read his latest comments as being "I'm sorry I got caught" rather than "I'm sorry I screwed up", especially given he is still trying to shift blame elsewhere. Resolute 14:01, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Bilcat was unblocked by the blocking admin at 17:47 (UTC). Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * And Mick was unblocked by User:Scott MacDonald following talkpage discussion. I support this unblock, though it will definitely be worth keeping an eye on how Mick gets on post-unblock. --John (talk) 17:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed; users who wish to comment on Mick's unblock should do so here to keep things in one venue. Ncmvocalist (talk)

Election Day in the US
A quick note - don't forget that today is Election Day in the United States, with lots of national and local officials on the ballot. So, for my fellow Americans, vote early and often. But also, for my fellow admins, keep your eyes open for shenanigans relating to issues, candidates, and the like. This recent changes list, of changes related to the 2010 election, may be worth watching, if you're into that sort of thing. We've already seen some POV BLP issues on candidate articles, though we're not at panic mode yet. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 14:11, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Other watchlists, for reference:
 * Gubernatorial Elections
 * House of Representatives
 * Senate

Thanks for keeping an eye on this. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 14:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

User:A.arvind.arasu
This editor was previously blocked for (among other things) copyright violations and edit warring (see talk page sections). The block was for a month duration. Despite this, the user has returned to uploading blatant copyright violations and (albeit slow) edit warring to push the logo of his favorite team onto the Twenty20 article, where it has been removed several times with explanations (see his talk page) (and mine) as to why it is inappropriate there, including violating WP:NFCC #10c. He has uploaded additional copyright violations at File:Cmrl.jpg and at File:Hpca venue.jpg. He knows full well from the prior block that taking things from the Internet and claiming them as his is unacceptable on Wikipedia, and in his unsuccessful unblock request back in August he promised he would not do it again. I also suspect that File:Csk clt20.jpg is a stolen image as well. I'm quite concerned about a number of other image uploads by this editor. I'm requesting this editor be blocked again, leaving the duration to the judgment of the blocking administrator. Editor has been notified of this discussion. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Since a previous block made no apparent impact, and the copyvios are clear (copyright images ripped off from other sites) I have blocked him indefinitely. If at some stage he should develop clue, others may unblock as they see fit. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:20, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this case is a perfect illustration of what is meant by the phrase "Users that exhaust the community's patience". There wouldn't seem to be much gained by efforts at probation or a shorter block; it looks like he'd just do an encore. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 22:31, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I first came across this editor when closing a 3RR case back in April. He persisted in messing up disambiguation pages, after multiple explanations. I am not surprised to hear that he was unable to learn our copyright rules. The time that I spent on his talk page trying to explain things was effectively wasted. EdJohnston (talk) 22:47, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Just a cottonpickin' minute! You can't enact a community ban like that. There is no community consensus to enact a ban - the correct course is to leave it as an indef block. I am removing the erroneous ban notice you placed on his talkpage/userpage (and the erroneous addition to the banned editors list if you have made one). If you want to community ban someone - have the proper discussion!!!!!Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:11, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Elen, when a user has been blocked multiple times for long periods by multiple administrators and still does not get the picture, and the only thing to be said about them is their continual exhaustion of community patience, I think it's safe to say consensus exists for the ban. It isn't necessary to (in effect) vote on a ban when it's quite this obvious -- WP:SNOW, you know -- but there's no reason we can't have a vote discussion if you really want one, I suppose. But since when has a "proper" discussion been necessary? --NicholasTurnbull &#124; (talk) 23:20, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Your userpage suggests that you have been away and come back only recently (or am I misreading?). You perhaps in that case need to read round a few documents.  I'd suggest Banning policy, particularly BAN for a start.  If it was ever possible for one admin to decide to permanently ban an editor, it certainly isn't these days.  Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:29, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I didn't mean that I thought that it was possible for one admin to decide on a permanent ban; merely that multiple blocks from multiple administrators used to be interpreted as an exhaustion of the community's patience and thus consensus for a ban (though I note that wording appears to have disappeared). Yes, I am an old hand, having registered in late-2004 and having been an administrator for a long time also. I'm sorry if the procedure has changed. What's the correct format/template? --NicholasTurnbull &#124; (talk) 23:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No worries. Apologies if my first comment was a bit WTF! I posted it then looked at your userpage. These days, banning seems to need an active decision, it can't be arrived at by a process of escalating blocks.  If you want to get the user banned, you would need to start a discussion at WP:AN, and have a reason why a ban rather than just an indef is required.  Usually bans are issued on users who sock repeatedly, so that editors are safe from 3RR when reverting their edits. In the case of this chap, unless he manages to post an unblock request that convinces me he understands copyright, he will stay blocked. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:43, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does make perfect sense, indeed. I think we were a bit more savage, once upon a time, in those wild old days of Wikipedia. I think actually, the meaning of "consensus" has narrowed slightly these days; it now seems to require explicit validation rather than an implicit assumption based on cumulative events. --NicholasTurnbull &#124; (talk) 23:53, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I doubt AAA went to south Africa to take the Champions League photo. CU could tell us where he was in September  YellowMonkey  ( new photo poll )  00:10, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing at home, fiddling with his...small change. Does this need a CCI? Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:52, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * There's nine other images of unknown provenance in his contribution history. I've not been able to find an Internet based source for then, but that doesn't mean he didn't take them from the Internet. Two of the nine are unused, and perhaps we should just delete those. Of the seven that are in use, all of them are readily replaceable. I'm not in favor of a drumhead trial and deletion of everything, but it is obvious this user has previously had zero grasp of copyright, and the project wouldn't be harmed by removing his image contributions. Burdening CCI with it, which is already over tasked, seems unnecessary. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:27, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Tell me the two unused ones and I'll delete them as presumed copyvios. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:32, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Put a list of the others on his talk page, and ask him to tell you where he got them from. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, on further research: one of the two unused ones is not actually uploaded by him. He did upload a replacement for it, but it was reverted and deleted. That's File:Tcs.jpg. The other 'unused' one (File:Interior of an MTC bus.jpg) is actually in use, via redirect. I'll fix that. I'll post the seven remaining images on his talk page and ask for his input shortly. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. See User_talk:A.arvind.arasu. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * He's come clean on the remaining seven. I've marked five of them for speedy deletion, and granted some good faith that the two remaining images (File:Nmrffgg.jpg and File:Mtc_volvo.jpg) are in fact his. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, since he's come clean on his image uploads, I think perhaps it's time to think about under what terms we'll remove his block, allow him to edit, etc. He seems contrite. Perhaps a conditional unban, where his uploads will be periodically checked and if he's found to be stealing images again and claiming them as his, he will be permanently banned from the project. Thoughts? --Hammersoft (talk) 15:36, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * He proved himself unable to follow policy in more than one domain. (See my comment above). His apparent agreements to straighten up never worked out. After a while he would go back to doing the same thing he had agreed not to do. After so many failures, I think we should ask him to wait at least a year before requesting unblock. EdJohnston (talk) 18:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * As the first blocker, I'd have to agree with EdJohnston. He claimed the same thing last time as he does now. If at all a consensus to unblock develops, I believe he should be restricted from uploading any images and not more than one revert per week to any article. The problems extend beyond just copyright issues, he's been consistently plugging his favorite team in various articles and introducing various fanboy items to articles (and reverting reverts). &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  19:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:POINT and topic bans.
This edit to WT:PHYS is of possible concern. Excerpt:

I have therefore decided that I will no longer recognize the validity of the blocks/topic bans on people like (list omitted)''. I encourage all of them to ignore any bans/blocks as that only poses a problem for the corrupted processes that lead to these people being bocked''

Could someone with more tact and persuasiveness than me please convince the editor that this might not be the most productive stance to take? --Christopher Thomas (talk) 19:32, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Out of curiosity, do you think that coming to ANI and getting this user blocked on sight fulfills your stated objectives of "tact and persuasiveness"? Dr.K. <sup style="position:relative">λogos<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πraxis 21:15, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Because this seems to me more like an offer that Count Iblis could not refuse than an attempt at diplomacy and tact. Dr.K. <sup style="position:relative">λogos<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πraxis 21:27, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm having trouble seeing what you're getting at with this comment. Are you saying that I shouldn't have brought the quoted statement to anyone's attention, or that putting the "could someone with tact persuade him" part in bold text would have stopped anyone trigger-happy from responding before the diplomats?


 * I posted it here because I felt that a) advocating ban and topic-ban violation from editors who had previously been discussed here at length was an action that should be discussed here, rather than on the WT:PHYS page or similar, and b) a diplomatic request from someone with experience with dispute resolution and the tools to stop unacceptable behavior would be more effective than a diplomatic request from myself or most of the other WT:PHYS regulars (these have been tried on multiple occasions, with ambiguous effect).


 * What, exactly, do you feel I should have done differently? --Christopher Thomas (talk) 22:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Good questions. I think ANI is a fast-paced venue designed to tackle egregious incidents which need speedy admin attention. By definition due to the fast-paced action of the place, diplomacy and contemplation often times fall behind the more usual outcome of the place, which is drama and of course blocks served at a relatively fast pace. If one needs a slower pace, more conducive to diplomacy and persuasiveness and less to blocking, WP:AN would have been a more opportune choice. To use an analogy, ANI is more like a drive-through restaurant. AN is more like an Internet cafe. You sit down, have a coffee and maybe a good and persuasive conversation. Dr.K. <sup style="position:relative">λogos<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πraxis 22:58, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Notice diff: . To clarify, I think that this editor is capable of contributing usefully to Wikipedia and is acting in good faith. I just think a spectacular error in judgement has occurred (not malice). --Christopher Thomas (talk) 19:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Wasn't Iblis himself once banned from advocating on Brews Ohare's behalf? Is that still in force? Tarc (talk) 19:48, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * That ban is no longer in force. I have however blocked Count Iblis for 24 hours for disruptive editing.  Deliberately and explicitly encouraging editors to violate blocks and topic bans is not on. Looie496 (talk) 19:51, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Enforcing bans and preventing socking can be difficult things to do, but that doesn't mean we should give up. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:56, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * This isn't an isolated incident, as Tarc and Looie note. Protonk (talk) 20:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Count Iblis has posted an unblock request and I have commented there. Protonk (talk) 20:30, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Hm, I don't agree with this block. Evidently any topic bans and blocks need to be enforced as long as they are in force, but merely voicing an opinion about particular topic bans and blocks does not damage or disrupt Wikipedia, and is as such not blockable under our blocking policy. Only acting on that opinion (i.e., evading blocks or bans) would be disruptive, or possibly soapboxing about such issues at disruptive length, but we do not seem to be there yet. I recommend that the block be lifted.  Sandstein  21:12, 1 November 2010 (UTC) Oh, and evidently the opinion is entirely ... misguided, but that in and of itself is not grounds for a block. If we were to block all who have ever said very stupid things in community fora, Wikipedia would be a much smaller community.  Sandstein  21:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If this were all in a vacuum, I would totally agree. CI's statement alone is pretty innocuous.  But taken as part of the overall campaign and Reichstag climbing w/ brews and the speed of light case, and it becomes just another example of boundary pushing and disruptive editing. Protonk (talk) 21:30, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Bad block, certainly. Agree with Sandstein completely. --jpgordon:==( o ) 21:29, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * For the record, any admin is free to unblock or reduce the block. I don't believe that passively allowing editors to encourage other editors to violate policy is a good idea, though.  Disagreeing with policy is no problem, but actively undermining it is.  I also note that we've been seeing a steadily escalating pattern of provocations from Count Iblis, and at some point a line needs to be drawn. Looie496 (talk) 21:55, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. On the basis of your agreement, I'll unblock Count Iblis now, because the block is explicitly only for the one comment at issue, which in and of itself is not grounds for a block. However, Protonk is certainly correct that Count Iblis's constant involvement in these disputes is widely perceived as problematic, and I do not think that I would object to a sanction that may eventually be imposed on the basis of a full consideration (and, if required, discussion) of the editor's contributions. I also strongly advise Count Iblis to take the hint and stop what looks like a futile crusade against The Man, or eventually the community will be so fed up with them that more substantial sanctions may result.   Sandstein   22:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * It might be worth remembering that the encouragement of users to violate topic/article bans is actually kind of irrelevant; it isn't as though any of the affected users might read Count Iblis' message and be misled into thinking the bans no longer applied. The enforcement should, and will, occur if they violate the bans, and what was written is clearly a personal opinion rather than a misleading claim that the bans are over. It should surely be enough for someone to simply point out, as a parenthetical "health warning" if on an article talk page, underneath Count's comment:
 * The above message is a personal opinion. Editors are reminded that violations of community-imposed editing restrictions are subject to administrative enforcement action.
 * I think we can get in a position of making a user more and not less determined to see the editing restrictions process gummed up by restricting his comments on the subject, but a gentle reminder of the consequences of following his "advice" might be more in order. This should probably be a template? --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 22:21, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * (e-c) There is a problem here. Wikipedia has an extant policy of WP:IAR which kind of supports what Iblis is saying. Granted, I think anyone who would be stupid enough to take Iblis' advice and engage in acts in violation of a topic ban could be blocked, and should be blocked, because basically acting on bad advice is more than kinda dumb. Had he put forward a better legalistic argument, maybe I would agree that it might be a good idea to highlight the flaws of the current policies or restrictions. But I do think that I agree with the block being lifted for basically just encouraging others to act stupidly. If others actually did act on that advice and act stupidly, however, they would deserve a block. John Carter (talk) 22:28, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Tact and persuasiveness on ANI? I would never have believed it could happen. Yet many of the comments above just proved me wrong. This is one of the few times I'm glad to have been proven wrong. Thank you gentlemen. Dr.K. <sup style="position:relative">λogos<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πraxis 22:44, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I have thanked Sandstein for lifting the block on my talk page. I've given a detailed reply to Protonk there too. In short, if you look at precisely what I have actually been doing w.r.t. the issues raised, instead of what people are saying about me and also take into account the fact that the Advocacy restriction by ArbCom against me was passed based on the latter not the former, you get a different picture. Count Iblis (talk) 00:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

See here for the official peer review of this case Count Iblis (talk) 15:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "Official peer review," he says. 718smiley.png &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 19:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Personal attacks by 93.182.189.31 on AFL talk page
93.182.189.31 has abused me on AFL talk page with an on going issue. He/she called me a druggie. Here is the comment they wrote, "Sorry for chiming in on your delusions GPW, but what kinda hippy delusional recreational drugs are you on if you think an admin has agreed with you? Whatever they are, I wan't some, then I'd probably agree with you, which after spending 10 minutes looking at your history on Wikipedia, would be a first." I'd like you to block this ip editor if possible. GuineaPigWarrior (talk) 19:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It appears the IP recieved a warning on their talkpage after these comments, see User talk:93.182.189.31. As the alleged attack is fairly moderate I don't think any more action than a warning is needed at present. I have informed the IP of this ANI thread. Polargeo 2 (talk) 10:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * As someone who was involved in that same conversation, I agree that the IP's comments were unacceptable and that the warning is fair, but I would suggest that the posting and debating style of GuineaPigWarrior has been part of the problem. A broader look at that aspect of the page may be appropriate. HiLo48 (talk) 10:42, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It sounds more like you need Mediation for that than you need ANI. Polargeo 2 (talk) 10:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You may be right, but I was truly hoping to get to a point of sensible discussion. (I'm an optimist, and I hate initiating problem escalation.) HiLo48 (talk) 11:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * As an aside, Polargeo: how did you inform the IP? My understanding is that IP contributors don't know when they get posts. I started out as an IP contributor, and was told that folk had sent messages to me - messages I never knew about. It might be better to insert a comment in the article discussion of the relevant page. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 13:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I left a message on the IP's talkpage. If you wish to leave further messages on the article talkpage then please go ahead. Cover all bases. We can only do so much and what I did was a lot more than the poster of this ANI thread did. Polargeo 2 (talk) 13:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Oops, sorry; I didn't mean to imply that you hadn't done a lot; I was just wondering if my experience as an IP editor was unique in that i didn't get messages posted to the IP address' talkpage - Jack Sebastian (talk) 21:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

User:Deben Dave and TXE
This AN/I post is for information/discussion purposes only; it requires no action.

is a telecoms engineering expert; a highly subject-skilled editor who has put considerable amounts of time, effort and knowledge into developing an article describing a historical type of British telephone exchange,. The article editor has also contributed a number of useful copyleft images about the exchange for including in the article. The article itself is, in fact, a good and interesting read and contains a wealth of extremely detailed information.

There are however many unfortunate problems with this article: the most serious is that the entirety is practically unsourced and much is likely unsourceable, despite it not being a copyvio; the few general (non-inline) citations present in the article being largely unrelated to the large quantity of content. Dave is also determined to have an Acknowledgements section included, where a series of collaborators are credited for their various contributions for the article (though do not appear to be sources as such). I have tried to explain to him on multiple occasions that Wikipedia policy is that all content must be sourced, that personal acknowledgements are not permitted within article space, and that material is not included in Wikipedia simply on the strength of an article being written by a subject expert and must be sourced (e.g. WP:V, WP:RS, NOT, WP:COI; diffs, , .)

Regretfully, Dave has engaged in tendentious article ownership behaviour in response following my engagement with him, revert-warring to protest the addition of cleanup tags, removal of the worst of the unsourced material and the removal of other inappropriate material such as the "Acknowledgements" section with combative edit summaries and at one point blanking the page. He appears to be under the impression that his expertise justifies this behaviour. He does not appear to be very communicative. There are no other involved parties.

I am extremely reluctant to place blocks on him for disruptive editing as I am absolutely certain he is acting in good faith, but I do not appear to be getting through to him. I note that other editors have attempted to discuss this with him on his talk page relating to other articles, to no avail. I would appreciate comment from other editors on what to do. --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 19:55, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * You've been nothing but polite and helpful to the editor - and he just does not seem to get it. This is problematic. As well-intentioned and as positive as his additions have been, this is an encyclopedia and needs full sources - verifiability is a pillar of Wikipedia. I look forward to his comment here in ANI before anything additional. ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 20:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC)


 * After reviewing the article history and the editor's talk page, I agree with all of the above. This is very regrettable, but I would support a community-imposed ban from the article (not the talk page), if Deben Dave does not indicate that he understands that despite his good work on Wikipedia, he still needs to comply with our community norms, notably WP:V and WP:OWN.  Sandstein   21:01, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

If you care to look up and read the references section mostly from the IPOEE journals, you will see that most all though not all the material is sourced. The acknowledge section was particularly relevant as it quotes Professor Flood who was in charge of the original design team of TXE1 and is still alive and provided much valuable information and we just wanted to thank him. We sent him a printed copy of the Wiki article to which he made several corrections and additions. I can provide contact details for verification should anyone require them. I don’t want to own this article just get the information out there and my very good friend Mark126 who has equally put as much effort as I have into in but unfortunately is no longer able to assist anymore. I sometimes think people are killing the spirit of Wiki and instead of just putting tags in why don’t people help by writing sections as they should be instead of deleting them or perhaps it is easier to just apply a tag. What is more important correct format or correct information. Deben Dave (talk) 22:38, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Also many people provided photographs and by giving them credit it was identifying the source of the photograph. Most of these were from the owners’ own personal collections and not obtainable anywhere else although BT Archives were able to provide a few. Deben Dave (talk) 22:58, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply, Dave. Indeed, as I said to you before, most of the technical material could be sourced -- quite possibly to the sources you mention or others related to them. The problem is the information that you obtained directly from Prof. Flood is that it isn't acceptable for Wikipedia, irrespective of whether you are able to verify that it was from him. A "reliable source" on Wikipedia means not an authority on a subject as in a person, but a published primary or secondary resource that uninvolved people can verify the existence of a claim in. I am sure that Prof. Flood is undoubtedly the authority on TXE, and I appreciate the honour of his involvement; but Verifiability requires there to be verifiable sources of published material for each of the claims. The Wikipedia meaning of "source" refers to a published reference resource -- contacting him for verification isn't useful. If he has written a book on the subject, that would be perfectly acceptable to use as a reference source, but I can't seem to be able to find one.
 * There is an issue of concern introduced by what you mentioned about the images, and I didn't appreciate this aspect. I hate to point this out as it opens another can of worms -- but this suggests that those images that you uploaded under a GFDL/Creative Commons copyright were not owned by you in the first place, and thus were not yours to license when uploading. This is a serious copyright issue, unless BT Archives and the other people mentioned have explicitly said that the material can be released under the GFDL/CC licenses, or that they already are. Sadly, the images will have to be deleted if this is the case, unless the copyright owners of the images have either 1) already released them into the public domain or; 2) released them under a compatible license. In either of these cases, they must either contact the Wikimedia Foundation OTRS address themselves to confirm copyright permission under either public domain or GFDL/CC, or have already released the copyright in a published source. Unfortunately, we can't just take your word for the fact that they've given permission to use the images. (I would be especially worried about the BT Archives images, as it is my understanding that BT Archives license images for non-commercial use only; this is not the same as the images being public domain or relicensable under the GFDL/CC license of Wikipedia.)
 * The issues here are not about format; they are about sourcing, verifiability and Wikipedia content standards. I understand what you mean about people deleting content and tagging articles rather than writing sections, but people cannot write sections if the article is not tagged as needing work in the first place (they don't know it exists). --NicholasTurnbull &#124; (talk) 01:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * "What is more important correct format or correct information."
 * Dave, the problem is that we cannot verify that the information is correct if your only source is a personal discussion with someone. We have to be able to read it for ourselves in a published source. We can't just take your word for it. That's the issue here. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 19:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps there is another way that this can be tackled, on at least two article that I have worked on, there has been copyright issues with third party websites. The Volunteer response team and a Wikimedia Open Ticket Request System (OTRS). If Professor Flood agreed to the email being placed on the talk page of the article and an OTRS could be provided as verification ... This is not really the forum for such a discussion perhaps it could be discussed further on the article's talk page. -- PBS (talk) 01:52, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Not appropriate in this instance. Whereas this would be right if the issue was copyright of the page; in this case we know the page to not be a copyvio, but also to be based on original research obtained by talking in person to one of the co-inventors of the system being described. This unfortunately is not compatible with WP:V and so, as such, even obtaining authenticable verification from Professor Flood would not help. The images, however, may be a different matter, if he was the source of some of them. --NicholasTurnbull &#124; (talk) 03:17, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Reinforcements needed to play Whack-a-troll
I'm busy reverting edits from a "comedian" using this IP address and this one, who appear to be the same gentleman discussed here. Pretty self explanatory. As I can't patrol my own pages 24/7, would someone mind monitoring the pages I created until he gets bored again? Thanks, Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 19:39, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I've blocked the IP currently in use (the first one you linked), but obviously if they jump around there may be further blocks needed. --RL0919 (talk) 20:14, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I blocked the second as a open proxy vandal. JodyBtalk 00:06, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Tidy up at WP:RESTRICT
This discussion of expired editing restrictions has been moved to WP:AN. --TS 23:45, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Both of the concerned editors have been informed of the move. --TS 23:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

British Isles disputants
Entire section has been moved to Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/BISE/October 2010 to centralize discussion and to save space on the ANI page. Please do not timestamp until this reaches the top of the page. –MuZemike
 * Adding timestamp - F ASTILY  <font color="#4B0082">(T ALK ) 05:52, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Problem on BLP noticeboard
Entire section has been moved to Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Problem on BLP noticeboard to centralize discussion and to save space on the ANI page. Please do not add a timestamp until this reaches the top of this page. –MuZemike
 * Adding time stamp - F ASTILY  <font color="#4B0082">(T ALK ) 06:18, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Cross-wiki vandal flying under the radar 22 months: 280+ bogus page creations, 40+ IPs
I'm posting this to make administrators and editors aware of an ongoing problem we've been having with an anonymous editor in Germany trolling across multiple Wikimedia projects.

Several weeks ago, an editor requested administrators block an anonymous editor (see User talk:84.61.131.141) who was disruptively creating unnecessary pages that then needed deletion. I did this then looked further at what was going on. I found an extensive pattern of cross-wiki editing by an anonymous editor in Germany in 2009 and 2010. This included vandalism as well as benign edits; this person's IP addresses had been blocked at different times on different projects. I catalogued some of this on a user subpage of mine:
 * User:A. B./Sandbox20 (permanent link)

This person seemed to have some interesting habits, including:
 * Creating almost 300 unnecessary, irrelevant and sometimes offensive article talk page redirects on en.wikipedia. Some were re-created many times (this person clearly doesn't like certain German train stations!)


 * I can only see deleted contributions on en.wikipedia; I don't know if this person does the same thing on other projects.


 * Asking numerous, often interesting, open-ended questions at reference desks on this and other projects. Sample reference desk and article talk page discussions (out of hundreds):
 * Reference desk/Archives/Mathematics/2009 November 15
 * Reference desk/Archives/Science/2010 March 11
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 March 13
 * Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 March 16
 * Talk:North Germanic languages/Archive 1


 * In June 2009, edit-warring on it and fr.wikipedia over their "ß" articles:
 * Eszett
 * ß


 * This person seems very well-informed and highly educated, especially in mathematics


 * This person seems widely multilingual and very, very fluent in English; he or she just as easily might be German or one of the millions of foreigners in Germany.

To my surprise, despite hundreds of disruptive edits, I'm not sure we've always "connected the dots" across the 40+ IP addresses this person has used to see the overall pattern.

I left a message on the German Wikipedia; they have some familiarity with this person:
 * w:de:Wikipedia Diskussion:Botschaft

Just recently, I have seen German IPs editing the reference desks that are likely related: I think our friend is probably behind much of this but I have been content to leave these accounts alone as long as they were not disruptively creating bogus pages. I recommend, however, that any German IP creating talk page redirects of the type listed above be blocked on sight without warning for 2 to 4 weeks.

No immediate action is required -- just ongoing vigilance. --<font face="Futura">A. B. (talk • contribs) 02:41, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Have you tried starting a discussion at Meta looking for possible cross-Wikimedia solutions, like a global rangeblock of some sort? -- Jayron  32  02:53, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It's more of a meta problem. Also rangeblock of all of the IPs is impossible: it's an ungodly range, and although I have suspicions as to how the person is doing this, it's still ridiculous how many IPs he has. The IPs not in the hide tags are a /27 which although doable, is awfully large, and there are some useful contribs c oming out of it, so I"m reluctant to do it locally. NativeForeigner Talk/Contribs 02:59, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Is there a global equivalent of EditFilter which is in use at Meta which could be used to selectively block this guy per his editing patterns? I don't spend a lot of time at Meta, so I don't know what sorts of things can be enacted locally vs. globally?  Even if not, could we at en.wikipedia set up an EditFilter locally to catch him?  -- Jayron  32  03:03, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I've considered range-blocking but as disruptive as this person is, a range block of that size would cost us too much good content from innocent IPs. If applied globally across all Wikimedia, it would devastate anonymous editing on de.wikipedia. This person is using Germany's largest telecom/ISP; blocking it would be the same as blocking ATT or BT here.


 * What I think would be useful would be an immediate x-wiki block of 2 weeks on any single IP seen disrupting one project.


 * After spending hours analyzing this person's edits, I have to say that they're not all bad. I don't understand this person's motivations but I sense they're complex and there may be some psychological issues involved. If we just calmly block bad behaviour immediately but otherwise ignore benign behaviour, we might actually get some useful contributions. In any event, it's hard to justify blocking a non-disruptive German IP just because they're asking challenging questions at our reference desks; we could end up blocking unrelated editors. --<font face="Futura">A. B. (talk • contribs) 03:17, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I've left a note at:
 * meta:Talk:Steward requests/Global (permanent link)
 * Request future IP blocks at:
 * meta:Steward requests/Global
 * --<font face="Futura">A. B. (talk • contribs) 03:59, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * All of the deleted pages listed above have been "salted" (protected) against re-creation. --<font face="Futura">A. B. (talk • contribs) 04:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

British Isles disputants
Entire section has been moved to Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/BISE/October 2010 to centralize discussion and to save space on the ANI page. Please do not timestamp until this reaches the top of the page. –MuZemike
 * Adding timestamp - F ASTILY  <font color="#4B0082">(T ALK ) 05:52, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Problem on BLP noticeboard
Entire section has been moved to Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Problem on BLP noticeboard to centralize discussion and to save space on the ANI page. Please do not add a timestamp until this reaches the top of this page. –MuZemike
 * Adding time stamp - F ASTILY  <font color="#4B0082">(T ALK ) 06:18, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Cross-wiki vandal flying under the radar 22 months: 280+ bogus page creations, 40+ IPs
I'm posting this to make administrators and editors aware of an ongoing problem we've been having with an anonymous editor in Germany trolling across multiple Wikimedia projects.

Several weeks ago, an editor requested administrators block an anonymous editor (see User talk:84.61.131.141) who was disruptively creating unnecessary pages that then needed deletion. I did this then looked further at what was going on. I found an extensive pattern of cross-wiki editing by an anonymous editor in Germany in 2009 and 2010. This included vandalism as well as benign edits; this person's IP addresses had been blocked at different times on different projects. I catalogued some of this on a user subpage of mine:
 * User:A. B./Sandbox20 (permanent link)

This person seemed to have some interesting habits, including:
 * Creating almost 300 unnecessary, irrelevant and sometimes offensive article talk page redirects on en.wikipedia. Some were re-created many times (this person clearly doesn't like certain German train stations!)


 * I can only see deleted contributions on en.wikipedia; I don't know if this person does the same thing on other projects.


 * Asking numerous, often interesting, open-ended questions at reference desks on this and other projects. Sample reference desk and article talk page discussions (out of hundreds):
 * Reference desk/Archives/Mathematics/2009 November 15
 * Reference desk/Archives/Science/2010 March 11
 * Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 March 13
 * Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 March 16
 * Talk:North Germanic languages/Archive 1


 * In June 2009, edit-warring on it and fr.wikipedia over their "ß" articles:
 * Eszett
 * ß


 * This person seems very well-informed and highly educated, especially in mathematics


 * This person seems widely multilingual and very, very fluent in English; he or she just as easily might be German or one of the millions of foreigners in Germany.

To my surprise, despite hundreds of disruptive edits, I'm not sure we've always "connected the dots" across the 40+ IP addresses this person has used to see the overall pattern.

I left a message on the German Wikipedia; they have some familiarity with this person:
 * w:de:Wikipedia Diskussion:Botschaft

Just recently, I have seen German IPs editing the reference desks that are likely related: I think our friend is probably behind much of this but I have been content to leave these accounts alone as long as they were not disruptively creating bogus pages. I recommend, however, that any German IP creating talk page redirects of the type listed above be blocked on sight without warning for 2 to 4 weeks.

No immediate action is required -- just ongoing vigilance. --<font face="Futura">A. B. (talk • contribs) 02:41, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Have you tried starting a discussion at Meta looking for possible cross-Wikimedia solutions, like a global rangeblock of some sort? -- Jayron  32  02:53, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It's more of a meta problem. Also rangeblock of all of the IPs is impossible: it's an ungodly range, and although I have suspicions as to how the person is doing this, it's still ridiculous how many IPs he has. The IPs not in the hide tags are a /27 which although doable, is awfully large, and there are some useful contribs c oming out of it, so I"m reluctant to do it locally. NativeForeigner Talk/Contribs 02:59, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Is there a global equivalent of EditFilter which is in use at Meta which could be used to selectively block this guy per his editing patterns? I don't spend a lot of time at Meta, so I don't know what sorts of things can be enacted locally vs. globally?  Even if not, could we at en.wikipedia set up an EditFilter locally to catch him?  -- Jayron  32  03:03, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I've considered range-blocking but as disruptive as this person is, a range block of that size would cost us too much good content from innocent IPs. If applied globally across all Wikimedia, it would devastate anonymous editing on de.wikipedia. This person is using Germany's largest telecom/ISP; blocking it would be the same as blocking ATT or BT here.


 * What I think would be useful would be an immediate x-wiki block of 2 weeks on any single IP seen disrupting one project.


 * After spending hours analyzing this person's edits, I have to say that they're not all bad. I don't understand this person's motivations but I sense they're complex and there may be some psychological issues involved. If we just calmly block bad behaviour immediately but otherwise ignore benign behaviour, we might actually get some useful contributions. In any event, it's hard to justify blocking a non-disruptive German IP just because they're asking challenging questions at our reference desks; we could end up blocking unrelated editors. --<font face="Futura">A. B. (talk • contribs) 03:17, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I've left a note at:
 * meta:Talk:Steward requests/Global (permanent link)
 * Request future IP blocks at:
 * meta:Steward requests/Global
 * --<font face="Futura">A. B. (talk • contribs) 03:59, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * All of the deleted pages listed above have been "salted" (protected) against re-creation. --<font face="Futura">A. B. (talk • contribs) 04:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

A situation of COI, SPAs, vote stacking, and tag teaming
Afer this sockpuppet investigations (Sockpuppet investigations/Cmagha/Archive) it was discovered that the users involved were co-workers and not socks. However, they are admitedly members of the current reincarnation of The Irving Literary Society and I believe play some sort of leadership/promotional role for that organization. As a result, these editors sole interest in editing wikipedia is to promote their orgnaization and its members. This COI is having a dramatic effect at several AFDs, including Articles for deletion/Ryan Neil Falcone, Articles for deletion/Aaron Raitiere, Articles for deletion/Peter Shalvoy, and Articles for deletion/The Irving Literary Society (2nd nomination). It was my undersatnding that they were warned by an admin about editing in this area after the close of the sock investigation. Users involved include User:Cmagha, User:Lebowski 666, User:Wehatweet, User:Coldplay3332, and User:Tea36. 4meter4 (talk) 12:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, there were warnings. This, for example.  David Biddulph (talk) 13:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, but unfortunately their editing pattern has not changed and they are not being upfront about their COI in the relevent AFDs. I think it is time that some blocks be administered.4meter4 (talk) 13:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I've looked at the AfDs and related articles and I concur with 4meter4's version of events completely. There is an unpleasant whiff of coordinated activity. The articles being discussed must be judged on their own merits, but this sort of process abuse must be discouraged. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I concur; this runs counter to and is a perversion of collaborative editing. I don't know if a block is necessary, but counseling definitely is. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 13:49, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the harder issue to understand is the line between coordination, and articulating one's views. The review did not find us to be co-workers; we are in different parts of the country, and those with conflicts have disclosed.  The individual positions are pretty standard.  What I find difficult is the "gaming" that goes one -- filing complaints against people to intimidate them.  There are really only two final positions to take, 'Keep' or 'Delete'.  You don't have to be in a conspiracy to line up one way or another, right? Coldplay3332 (talk) 14:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * In this case we have a group of editors who mostly edit within a very specific group articles around a topic (Cornell's Irving Society and related people) which some of the editors have an admitted conflict of interest. All of the editors blatantly ignore wikipedia policy in the pursuit of a particular common agenda (ie promoting Irving and its members). All of this shows COI and SPA. Because of the use of numbers in vote stacking and tag teaming, it is difficult if not impossible for neutral editors who want to follow wikipedia guidelines (like WP:N, WP:NPOV, WP:Verifiability, and WP:No original research) to get any valuable editing done.4meter4 (talk) 15:32, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment. Help me understand why you consider me a conspirator, and yet this activity is not problematic at this point,  and at this point.  We just check in, read and comment.  But this is coordination at these points, isn’t it? Coldplay3332 (talk) 14:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I think my comment above pretty much explains it. As for evidence, your editing histories speak for themselves. Please see WP:COI, WP:SPA, WP:Vote stacking, and WP:Tag teaming for relevent policies.4meter4 (talk) 15:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Response Please review WP:COWORKER, which says that since you share the same IP address you should act as if you are only one person entitled to one vote at AfD, etc. Voceditenore and I have no editing in common until the restoration of the deleted Irving article in October 2010.  All of our communication has been on-wiki, and we have voted in the opposite direction at Articles for deletion/The Irving Literary Society (2nd nomination).  Perhaps all of your coworkers should nominate just one Wikipedia spokesman and take special measures to refrain from editing on the subject of Irving and its purported alumni.  Alternatively, once you see that any coworker has edited, avoid creating the impression that you can be considered as someone different in that discussion.   However, the lack of improvement in behavior since the blocks were lifted is unfortunate and requires further action from an administrator. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 15:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Response to Coldplay3332 It's fine for editors to articulate their views on user and article talk pages and at AfDs and to inform each other what's going on elsewhere in Wikipedia. But in an AfD, they should always make their potential conflict of interest clear in that AfD, not somewhere else (or nowhere). In this, this, and this AfD, four members of this group (not, I emphasise, you) all !voted "keep", yet none of them disclosed any of this, including the articles' creator. All of them were advised by an administrator when they were unblocked either to be upfront about their affiliation and/or potential conflict of interest, or if not, to avoid editing in the same areas. Perhaps, you (and they) thought participating in the same AfDs didn't count as editing in the same areas. But, I'm afraid it does. Voceditenore (talk) 15:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * As I was writing my response above, I see you were !voting "keep" in those three AfDs too, , , despite the advice the administrator had given you here. Ah well... Voceditenore (talk) 16:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Please note that after these users were blocked, User:IndtAithir was created, and he has self-indentified as someone who "wants to work for" Daniel P. Meyer. (He could mean that he works for Meyer and is pleased, or that he does not yet work for Meyer but aspires to do so, or something else.) This account bears watching as well. Racepacket (talk) 15:45, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Of note. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. This moved off of 4meter4's talk page rather quickly, didn't it; his discussions with Racepacket about bringing the Cornell Board of Trustees into this discussion? Was that to intimidate the Cornell students participating? Never good to have evidence of similar behavior to the allegations you are making on the record; psychologists call this projection. The others probably understood the coaching the way I did, for future endeavors.  To not finish my participation in these 4 proceedings would be to back down to bullying; that rewards belligerent behavior. Cmagha (talk) 16:25, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Cmagha, this whole issue might go away quietly if regular editors became convinced that you and your colleagues were willing to follow Wikipedia policy. Indignation about the people who are pointing out the problems to you is not helping your cause. When people remind you to follow policy, that is not 'bullying.' If it turns out that there is no other way to address this problem, I think that a topic ban for several editors might be considered in a future thread. EdJohnston (talk) 16:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * At the time I made those comments Cmagha, you and your compadres were blocked indefinitely as socks and I had no reason to believe you or they would be back on wikipedia. I never made any comments to you or the other editors in an attempt to try and influence your votes or other actions undoly. Having created hundreds of articles at wikipedia (possibly over a thousand now), in an array of areas I think I have safely established that my interests here are not personal but merely in wanting to establish what is best for the encyclopedia. I have never attended Cornell and am not close to anyone who has. I merely want to maintain wikipedia's credibility and veracity.4meter4 (talk) 16:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Request for topic ban
Unfortunately this group has repeatedly ignored requests to follow wikipedia guidelines and, as exampled above, has often resorted to personal attacks and speculations on the motives of others to dismiss any comments or objections they don't like. I haven't seen any willingness to work collaboratively or any acknowledgement of wiki's policies beyond attempts at wiki-lawyering to avoid them. This is not a new problem, but something that has been going on for months. Plenty of opportunities over the last year have been given to these editors without any positive results. This is not a wait and see moment, but a last straw moment. I think a topic ban would be an excellent solution. All of these editors should be banned from editing or participating in talk page discussions at The Irving Literary Society, any articles about its members, and all and any articles related to Cornell University for a time period of two years. They should also avoid editing the same articles with one another. Hopefully, they will continue to edit at wikipedia and in the process become more familiar with wiki policy and its propper implementation during that time. 4meter4 (talk) 17:19, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose There's no allegations of sockpuppetry, meatpuppetry, or any other violation of wikipedia policies of conduct guidelines. If they were making money through collaboration instead of just advocating for a marginally notable set of topics they are jointly interested in, COI might be enough to justify a topic ban.  The system must be robust enough to tolerate groups of people working in concert openly. Jclemens (talk) 18:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I broadly agree with Jclemens; however, this group had not been "working in concert openly" until just recently, so they might be in need of a little administrator supervision and/or guidance. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Support - (1) the misuse of sources, (2) failure to address concerns on the talk page and (3) conflict of interest/meatpuppetry warrant serious action. As for benefit, the Cornell Phi Kappa Psi webpage links to the "Irving Literary Society" Wikipedia article in several places in an attempt to use Wikipedia's endorsement of what is a fringe theory of Cornell history.  It is a strange form of using unsourced puffing on Wikipedia to promote their membership recruitment efforts. If Phi Kappa Psi won't directly use John F. Kennedy Jr as their "poster child" on their own website, why should Wikipedia do it for them on the Wikipedia website? Racepacket (talk) 23:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose with caveats This is way too draconian at this point, but unless more administrators keep an eye on this group of editors and their articles and/or attempt to make them understand the guidelines and policies which they continue to violate, this issue is going to end up at AN/I again. I also disagree with some of Jclemens's points above. Firstly, this group has not been "working in concert openly". None of the 5 who !voted "keep" in three recent AfDs (closed today, one as delete and two kept per "no consensus") declared their affiliation and/or conflict of interest in the discussions. One explicitly presented himself as having no COI, , . Observe the following comments from the closing adminsistrator at the AfDs for Peter Shalvoy (all five "keeps" were from this group) and Aaron Raitiere (five of the six "keeps" were from this group, with 4 "deletes" from other editors). Ryan Neil Falcone was so blatantly non-notable that that even the five "keep" !votes from this group couldn't save it. Secondly, the leader of this group (supported by two others) has consistently misrepesented sources to support assertions which at best are dubious and sometimes completely spurious. Just read the talk pages for The Irving Literary Society (and its archive). The guidelines on verifiability and original research have been pointed out innumerable times to them The reaction is always "I didn't hear that". OK, so this is a small corner of Wikipedia, and the shenanigans are not financially motivated. But does this kind of stuff, especially vote-stacking at AfDs and deliberate misrepresentation of sources belong anywhere on Wikipedia, whatever the motivation? I don't think so. Voceditenore (talk) 09:47, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Not reasonable to let this user edit again
- This user is blocked for 31 hours. This is a vandalism-only account. No good faith edits have occurred. Racial hatred is not acceptable. Dawnseeker2000  02:16, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Take it up with the blocking admin. -- Jayron  32  02:29, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I have informed the blocking admin, and I have to say I agree that 31 hours is unacceptable. Indef is indicated. DuncanHill (talk) 02:39, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, thanks Duncan for notifying Rd232. Dawnseeker2000   02:50, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Pretty obvious that this is a vandalism only account. I've blocked them indefinitely. AniMate  08:16, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * FWIW, my logic was that it was a longer term unconstructive account; someone (probably very young) returning only very occasionally. Indef blocking just means they're likely to make a new account at some point, and possibly try harder to avoid detection. Rd232 talk 09:40, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

E-mail revealed
I've discovered here on BritishWatcher's talk page, an IP had revealed his E-mail address (I think deliberatly) and so it should be removed. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 09:19, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Anyone is allowed to reveal their own email address if they want to; as you point out, it was indeed deliberate! (Incidentally, in general, if you think that personal information needs removing, WP:RFO is the way to go – posting it here merely exposes it more!) <font color="#7026DF">╟─TreasuryTag► Africa, Asia and the UN ─╢ 09:22, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Request for semi-protection


has removed a tag from this article for a requested move three times within the last several hours although there is an ongoing discussion in which they are not participating. Since it does not appear to be a fixed IP, I am requesting semi-protection. TFD (talk) 15:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I concur with TDC, the article needs semi-protection. There are also multiple reverts in the article by regular editors, in what looks like an edit war. The article is also making major progress so I do not see this as harmful. Inference by IPs and socks may however escalate the situation. P.S. – It bight be useful to check the IPs for open proxies. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:32, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I have left a remainder on the talk page. Some, including a registered editor and an ip editor, are dangerously close to a block. There are only three ips that have edited in the last few days so semi seems unneeded for now. I have watch listed the page and will be available to help. JodyBtalk 15:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * This is NOT helpful: the remainder on the talk page will have no effect on IP editors or regular users editing anonymously to avoid scrutiny. As you said, the article is "dangerously close" to something. Semi-protection would help cool down the situation. I am afraid the article may otherwise end up being fully protected. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:RFPP is the correct forum. 3RR is a bright line, even though the IP keeps removing the merge notice it is a bad idea to keep reverting it back. But i think this is manageable w/o semi for the time being --Errant[tmorton166] $(chat!)$ 16:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Concur. But it is not just the move notice but the text in the lead - that is a content dispute. JodyBtalk 16:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The IP (as and ) has violated 3RR. Suggest a 24 hr block for the IP or a stern warning to cease edit warring. No need for semi unless other non-autoconfirmed editors join in or there is socking from the original IP. -Atmoz (talk) 16:49, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that a block would be ineffective, because the IP could just reboot their modem and get assigned a new IP address, which is why I recommended semi-protection. TFD (talk) 16:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Warning was placed on the article talk page for all. The ip is not alone here. There is some fine discussion underway but some are adamant about the lead and the template notice. JodyBtalk 16:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree the IP is not alone in edit warring. But it is the only one that crossed the 3RR line. As they haven't edited (from an IP) since the warning, the block is probably not needed. Further edit warring by anyone on the article should be dealt with in the usual manner.
 * @TFD: As there is only 1 non-autoconfirmed user edit warring, semi is not appropriate. If the IP is blocked and then socks, we can be deal with then. -Atmoz (talk) 17:04, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * NO!, this is not a "content dispute", as JodyB suggests above. This is sock puppetry to avoid something. The IP address :95.143.195.64, geolocated to Sweden, is not controlled by some Swede, but is somehow compromised. Why else would the IP be spamming a Singapore free classified ads site with sex ads? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 17:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? Please provide a diff of that spamming. JodyBtalk 17:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I see what you are saying but this is about this encyclopedia. If you think there is a sock then prove it. But as it pertains to this article it is clearly a content dispute. JodyBtalk 17:14, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) You misunderstood me. The IP is also used to "spam" other parts of the Internet – or at least provide anonymity by hiding the originator of the message. It is thus an open proxy. The implication is that this is not a content dispute between others and someone from Sweden, but someone using proxies to bypass 3RR and avoid scrutiny. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 17:21, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.143.195.64 (talk) 17:25, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * (ec)If you are correct that this is a Tor node then it needs to be blocked and that ends the problem. However that is not certain. There are others around here better equipped to check that. Maybe someone will look and let us know. However the original complaint was not about Tor's or open proxies. The history is clear that this ip editor and another are back and forth over the lead and the template. JodyBtalk 17:27, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I've just blocked the small range, as almost certainly an anonymising proxy. The IP before it was probably also a proxy. No comment on the rest of it. -- zzuuzz (talk) 17:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * So that handles it all and protection is not needed. Agreed? JodyBtalk 17:37, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it does not! If someone is "anonymously editing" using an anonymising proxy – quite possibly one of the regular editors, then what stops him from just using some other proxy in the TOR network. Besides, we also have these edits by -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:15, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I have reason to believe that 74.115.214.155 is also some kind of anonymizer. It geolocates to Crownsville, Maryland, yet it is being used by someone who claims to be in California! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 19:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I will file an SPI request based on behavior as it appears to be clear who it is. However I am unfamiliar with how addresses work and request that you explain how we could know that the edit orginates from anywhere other than where geolocate states.  TFD (talk) 19:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Geolocation information in itself does not automatically show that an IP is an open proxy. Through my work, depending upon which corporate network I connect, geolocation of my IP can show an address in either Germany, Netherlands, or the US (usually showing either California, Washington, or Maryland) - yet I am physically located in Washington.  None of those are open proxies.  More evidence than just geolocation is needed to prove an IP is an open proxy. --- Barek (talk) - 20:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I have filed an SPI request here. TFD (talk) 20:28, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Marked as resolved. Nothing left to do here. -Atmoz (talk) 14:56, 3 November 2010 (UTC)