Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive657

sockmaster using openproxy
A few days back a prolific sock master Shinas/Anwar Sadaat was banned Sockpuppet investigations/Shinas/Archive after a check user. Now he has popped up again using an open proxy in Germany. He was earlier using an IP range 117.193.32.0/19 to edit articles and is currently using the 84.19.160.0/20 open proxy range to edit the same articles. Comparing edits from known IPs ( with and  with   with  indicate this is Shinas/Anwar Sadaat. A google search reveals 84.19.160.0/20 (Keyweb AG IP Network) is a open proxy used for spamming. I am reverting his additons.

My question is what do we do with open proxies like this? do we block them? (if yes i request a range block on this)--Sodabottle (talk) 07:08, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Also FYI: he has opened a new account in Commons; compare with ). I have posted in the admins notice board there.--Sodabottle (talk) 09:43, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If they're properly open proxies, yes we'll rangeblock them, usually after it's been confirmed and the range properly determined. This range appears to belong to CyberGhost, so if someone wants to download the free version and confirm what ranges it uses these days, list them here or at WP:OP, as well as list some of the IPs being abused, that would help speed things up. -- zzuuzz (talk) 09:46, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I downloaded Cyberghost as suggested. It is using the server 84.19.165.217 to connect as anonymous. Which is the same as the IP used today by the sockmaster. On December 8 he used 84.19.169.163. How do we identify the range from this?--Sodabottle (talk) 10:38, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * According to the rangeblock calculator: "Range 84.19.160.0/20 (up to 4096 users would be blocked)" --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks!!. So dear admins, can someone please block this range (or should i go through WP:OP?)--Sodabottle (talk) 12:57, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've proxyblocked 84.19.169.160/28 pending more information. -- zzuuzz (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * That doesn't block today's IP - 84.19.165.217. shouldnt it be a /20 block instead of /28?--Sodabottle (talk) 13:20, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There's a variety of network providers in that range. Personally I'd rather target the blocks on abusive known proxies, and so I've now blocked the 84.19.165.208/28 and 84.19.169.224/28 CyberGhost ranges. Feel free to mention any other examples and/or (admins) adjust the blocks. -- zzuuzz (talk) 18:42, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The organization delegated those ranges also seems to own 217.114.211.240/28, according to RIPE. Anomie⚔ 21:49, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Harassment by Lunalet
has been making personal attacks against since December 4th. This has gone to the point of harassment.
 * Issue

will desist in making personal attacks against and will stop harassing SMasters.
 * Desired outcome

On December 1st, SMasters sent out a large number of neutral messages to all of the GoCE users informing us that there was an election going on. The purpose of this election was to elect new coordinators for the Guild. The election was by simple affirmation voting in "support" sections, with another section for comments or questions. He also sent out ~18 neutral messages to other users who have actively used our services, encouraging them to vote too. (This was acceptable since non-GoCE members were permitted to vote in the elections.)
 * Background

On December 3rd, 01:36 UTC, Lunalet makes his first post to the election page asking about SMaster's AWB run. On December 4th, 00:01 UTC, Lunalet makes his first canvassing accusation. Just after this, he makes a post containing the edit summary "support the only good candidate" (supporting Diannaa). I then read this and ask were SMasters was canvassing, and he answers "see question 4". Suspicious of canvassing, I then struck my support, but reinstated it when I noticed Lunalet's talk page was full of civility violations. After a bit more of this passes, I reply to Lunalet's harassing, upon which he directs a personal attack at me. Lunalet then sends out messages to users whose articles were specifically copyedited by Diannaa. Diannaa then asks why Lunalet did not send messages to the other 4 candidates. I then reply to Lunalet's personal attack against me, pointing out how he appears to be attempting to destroy the Guild. Lunalet then dodges Diannaa's question. Lunalet then makes an even more blatant personal attack on SMasters, which I reverted and warned him for violation of personal attacks. There also are no "oppose" sections on the election page since it is simple approval voting. Lunalet then undoes my revert claiming that it is not a personal attack. Finally, SMasters replies to this new personal attack. 
 * Development

I would also recommend reading the page since there is a great deal more I have not mentioned here. Reaper Eternal (talk) 02:27, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Without commenting on the issue at hand, you don't need four sections for this. To minimize how much longer this lengthens the table of contents, I've removed them, and replaced them with markup that has the same effect in terms of bold.— Dæ dαlus + Contribs 05:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I have noticed a large quantity of civility issues from this user. I first became aware of their behavior at an AFD (Articles for deletion/Sun Way Flight 4412), where they were making lengthy and fairly uncivil posts with regard to positions they did not agree with. When queried they accused pretty much every user who voted keep of tag teaming (see User Talk:Lunalet for this). Their posts to the aforementioned AFD were this account's first posts on wikipedia. The user is obviously not new, and does not claim to be. Lunalet claims to not remember the name of their previous account. I find this hard to believe, and based on Lunalet's present behavior consider it highly likely that their previous account is subject to active sanctions. However, I have no idea what the previous account is and as such am unable to file a SPI case. And as Checkuser is not fishing I don't think a request would be granted. I left a note for this user on their talk page regarding WP:CIVIL, which was responded to with a terse and fairly pointy message. My reply has since gone unanswered, as have all other posts on Lunalet's talk page. A check of the user's contributions to see if they were still editing turned up the user's participation in the Guild of Copyeditor's Elections, on which which Lunalet appears to be making pointy edits, possibly unfounded accusations, borderline personal attacks, and potentially causing disruption through canvassing. Hopefully someone reading this thread recognizes the behavior and can determine the name of the previous account. If not, there is probably enough disruption here to warrant a block, though Lunalet should be given the opportunity to respond here first.  N419 BH  07:34, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I've no idea about the stuff re SMasters, but endorse N419BH's comments; Mjroots, will, too, I expect. This is an obvious returned problematic editor; wade through the evasiveness on their talk and you'll see. I did last week. Bzzt. Cheers, Jack Merridew 10:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The guy is a self-admitted sock, and I reported him 2 weeks ago and nothing was done. Maybe they will this time. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Between trolling, he has some odd habits, like moving stub tags. Seems to use AWB or some similar program, correcting "dashes" and such. Doc  talk  10:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * (ears burning) FWIW, I don't buy Lunalet's assertion that they can't remember their previous username. I agree with N419BH that the user is probably a sock, and the puppetmaster is probably under active sanctions. I'm not sure whether suspicion of sanction evasion is sufficient grounds to indef the account. However, sock or not, the editors behaviour is open to scrutiny and may be grounds for action in itself. Mjroots (talk) 11:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The account's most recent edit as of now says it all. For me, "Knowledge of policy" coupled with a deep misunderstanding of policy = Possibly Frustrated Troll.  And that is not a "personal attack", mind you.  The forming consensus seems clear that this is a disruptive account and one that may need a "wake-up call". This edit is also "interesting" and may give a clue to the account's identity. Doc  talk  11:41, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Good catch, Doc. And thanks to LHvU↓ and Google Chrome OS for sponsoring the free in-flight wifi. Cheers, Jack Merridew 21:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You may well be onto it, as the one editor's last edit was shortly before the other editor's first. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * AIV wouldn't do anything, just like 2 weeks ago, but hopefully an admin here will take care of it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:52, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I was the admin who blocked LAz17 for 3 months and, if I recall correctly, declined to block Lunalet - since it was not obvious socking - when reported by Baseball Bugs. I think I suggested an SPI request, should there be sufficient grounds, because if positive it would mean the editor is evading a block which is an indef on the sock account and possible repercussions for the master. It seems to me that there is sufficient evidence now to present in an SPI report, and I suggest that option again - any evidence of disruption from a block evading sock will likely result in strong sanctions being applied. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:53, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I declined Bugs' most recent AIV report, in spite of a strong itch in my banhammer hand. Concur with Less that there is an SPI case in this.  Favonian (talk) 16:34, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Sock or not, he's been attacking other editors from the get-go. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:13, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That edit to Laz17 looks like their only slip-up. I don't see any reason why Lunalet would visit that talk page unless they were previously familiar with it, and the timing is extraordinarily coincidental (Laz17's last edit was a mere 4 hours before Lunalet's first). Anybody see any other behavioral links? I also think it likely that this isn't the only sock we're dealing with. I bet he's created another account due to the extensive heat on the Lunalet account, as the contributions, quick at first, have slowed to a trickle. Looks like Lunalet is now a SPA for Guild of Copyeditors. I bet there's another one out there now working in other areas. Just a hunch.  N419 BH  20:12, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * User:SMasters does not have any overlapping edits with LAz17, so it is unclear why he as been selected as a target. Sarek has removed the most recent post as a personal attack. Any further attacks by Lunalet and I would like to see a block for harrassment/disruptive editing. They are not here to improve the encyclopedia. -- Diannaa (Talk) 20:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea why Lunalet has singled me out as a target. Lunalet is not a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, has never worked on any of our projects, is not on our mailing list, and has never participated in any of the Guild's drives. The attacks started a mere five days after the account was created. I also don't buy Lunalet's assertion that they can't remember their previous username. However, I don't recall any major conflicts with anyone else, so I guess I might just be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Nevertheless, Lunalet has wasted all of our time here. The account appears to have little contribution to the encyclopedia except to make personal attacks and to cause conflict. Someone has mentioned that his strategy may be to cause disruption or to even destroy the GOCE by pitting the leaders there against each other. I am concerned that the attacks will continue after our elections are over. – SMasters (talk) 23:05, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Update: Lunalet was informed of this ANI by Reaper Eternal on 03:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC) . Lunalet chose to ignore this and SarekOfVulcan's revert on 05:03, 14 December 2010, and continued the attack by posting on the GOCE voting page on 00:08, 15 December 2010 . This was then reverted by The Utahraptor , who was probably not aware of this ANI. The Utahraptor then posted a warning against personal attacks on Lunalet's page . So, the attacks have continued despite several editors telling him not to do it, as well as several reverts, in addition to knowledge of the existence of this ANI, which he has chosen to ignore. – SMasters (talk) 08:00, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I have blocked Lunalet for 3 months, the same as LAz17 who I suspect is related, for their disregard of the concerns, requests and warnings from other editors. I still think an SPI is warranted, but perhaps it might wait for the next forgetful new account to start posting. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks LessHeard vanU for your time in looking into this. I hope that any forgetful "new account" will not hound me. – SMasters (talk) 02:06, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I have filed an SPI case at Sockpuppet investigations/LAz17.  N419 BH  20:19, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Improper removal of speedy deletion tag
Last week | I tagged Category:International military aircraft 2010-2019 for speedy deletion per the C1 speedy deletion criteria. Shortly after, User:The Bushranger (the original creator) removed my tag and placed the template in its place, stating "no reason to delete it when it will only need to be re-created later". | I objected to this on his talk page, detailing how he shouldn't have removed the tag himself (as the original category creator) and how the category didn't meet any of the exceptions to the C1 deletion criteria. I then re-tagged the category explaining that Bushranger should use the "holdon" template if he had any objection to the deletion, for the reviewing admin to consider. Immediately afterward, however, User:Ahunt || removed my speedy deletion tag, stating that "this is a useful category. If you still think it should be deleted than take it to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion". I once again objected to this, because Ahunt is not an administrator, and because the category still did not meet any exceptions to the C1 speedy deletion criteria. I don't dispute that non-administrators can remove speedy deletion tags, but it is my understanding that they should only do so in unambiguous situations where the tag was obviously improper or no longer applies. This was not the case here. Looking for administrator input as to what I should do next. I don't think CfD is appropriate, as I don't actually object to the merits of the category, only the fact that it is empty, which is a procedural issue that clearly meets the C1 criteria. It's been empty for well over a week, by the way, so it can be deleted any time. 69.59.200.77 (talk) 20:32, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, speedy tags can be removed by anyone. The reason for the speedy delete process is for a means to remove uncontested articles - as soon as it is contested for any reason the article needs to go to AfD. Them's the rules. So, open an AfD discussion. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:42, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, CSD tags cannot be removed by the article creator. Doing so is disruptive, and doing so repeatedly usually earns a block.&mdash;Kww(talk) 20:44, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Er... whoops. Couldn't have been paying much attention - since I was wittering on about articles anyway. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * At this point, the CSD tag has been removed by someone other than the creator, so it would have to go through CFD.&mdash;Kww(talk) 20:45, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Just to pile on, CSD-tags can be removed by anyone, except for the original creator. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 20:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems pointless and perhaps even a little GAME-y to require a cfd discussion on something that so plainly meets the criteria, when the very criteria itself was introduced to prevent people from keeping empty categories around because they like them. If that's consensus here, though, I'll respect it and bring it to CfD, where my sole argument is that it's empty and doesn't meet any exceptions, and the sole arguments to keep will go completely contrary to the criteria, and will still be eligible for speedy deletion even if the CfD ended in keep. 69.59.200.77 (talk) 21:00, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I think we can close this one. Maybe leave a note on Bushranger's talk about removing speedy tags from articles you've created yourself.  N419 BH  20:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Ben_Henderson_(fighter) Needs temp protection
The page on requesting protection recommends speaking to an admin before doing anything, and that's what I am attempting now. The issue is minor, but is vandalism none the less. The fighters record has been modified to show him loosing to a fighter in an event that has not been held yet (the event is tomorrow night.) I recommend and request the page be protected until 11PM EST US (after the event is scheduled to end.)

Sdamon (talk) 23:29, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This isn't the correct place for this request. Page protection requests are made here --> WP:RPP.  Whose Your Guy (talk) 00:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Something Unusual
I've got this my discussion reverted and an unusual legal threat from 69.31.68.51 who has a dynamic IP address. I think this is rather unusual for removing a sentence in Public opinion on climate change and posting the accompanying reason on the talk page. Maybe you can have a look and offer your opinion, because I'm a little taken aback. --CaC 155.99.230.249 (talk) 23:52, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This is just someone puffing out their chest in an intimidation attempt. I wouldn't worry too much about it.  Stuff like this happens every day here on Wikipedia.  Whose Your Guy (talk) 00:15, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yup. Just revert, warn, ignore. If that IP user (69.31.68.51) keeps making legal threats, he is asking to get blocked. [&#124;Retro00064&#124;&#9742;talk&#124;&#x270D;contribs&#124;] 00:28, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've warned IP 69.31.68.51 with .  Whose Your Guy (talk) 01:21, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Need another admin opinion
It would be very helpful if another admin or two could review that appeal request and give their opinion. I provided my take on the situation. Another voice or two would sort things out. Thanks! Vassyana (talk) 01:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

User abusing other editors
Among other disruptive actions, is constantly abusing me and my edits, , , refusing to maintain civility by filling my talk page with many bogus warnings , using unreliable openly Shia-centric websites as refs which only provokes sectarian edit-wars.. Talk about a fearless no-respect-showing disruptive user, who even edit-wars with admins , .--AllahLovesYou (talk) 09:11, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I just asked you to have break, that was intended to calm down your aggressive and editing. "Need some break" is not abusive statement rather accusing someone wrongly of abusing other editors is an attack of accusation. You even claimed in the headline that abusing other editors, can you bring any abusive word which I used in front of us? I am in discussion with admin Dab here where is the edit warring? - Humaliwalay (talk) 14:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I asked this on the article talk page, but someone needs to explain to uninvolved parties why the website is so bad as to not be a usable source.
 * I see that it seems to be a mildly advocative "Shia and Sunni aren't so different" site, on first impression, but I suspect there are levels I am not understanding on reviewing it briefly.
 * There appear to be very vehement feelings about it - those need to be explained.
 * Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:38, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * IMO comments of ASE were more abusive as they tend to encompass whole community and definitely those comments point that per se user's comments, Indo-Aryans are some what inferior to Semitic-Arabs in addition those comments tend to defile dignity of Shi'a community by accusing them of forging lineage links.
 * But, imo, everybody should stick to the point and refrain from attacking believes, communities, nationalities, individuals, etc.
 * Finally, al-islam.org can be relied upon as it contains reliable articles such as, , , , , , , , , etc which are work of reputed Shi'a, Sunni & Western scholars. May be we should be cautious while referring to it as this website is an online library and all content at this website may not be NPOV or academic (as in the case of physical libraries) but that does not discredits importance of the website as source.
 * -- Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider t c s 19:01, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Who made the comment "Indo-Aryans are some what inferior to Semitic-Arabs", and where is the diff? A per se attack on another editor's culture/ethnicity/*ism is not acceptable, and editors really ought to keep such opinions to themselves while on WP. Xavexgoem (talk) 02:19, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Did I use "per se" right? I love needless latin.
 * The term per se means "by itself". Not sure that applies here. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:36, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Meanwhile, I also have a question: Why is it that the Arabic word for God File:Dcp7323-Edirne-Eski Camii Allah-ds.svg resembles a Viking ship? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * i have no answer to bugses question but i think per se is correclty used here. "per se" might mean "in itslef" but it is generally used to mean "without reservation or explicativeness", such as the legal term "negiglgly per se" which means "to negligct without reservation or reason". you could say that the attack was "per se" because he didnt say "SOME iNDO-aRYANS" were inferior but NOT all of them since the remark itself was unqualified. however, you might have done better to use another greek Phrase, ad hominem which means 'against the homan' or against the person you is talking to. User:Smith Jones 03:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, ad hominem ("toward the man") would seem to be the proper phrasing here. Per se means "by itself" or "in itself"; separated from the rest of a particular discussion.
 * Can you provide the diff for Indo-Aryan being inferior to Semitic-Arabs? I'm not seeing it. I did find one reference to the theory that Iran's Muslim leaders are Indo-Aryan and hence not descended from Muhammad's family. If he made a broad and seemingly racist comment, I must have missed it. Although much of his argument has to do with sourcing, so he might have been talking about the quality of sourcing rather than the ethnic groups. But without the diff, I can't tell. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, if the comment was made, then I conclude that "per se" was correct. Even if it's in a religious context, it can easily be misconstrued. And if not misconstrued, then whoever said it could have been making a point outside the religious context. In other words, hypothetical person who made that comment: don't do that. Xavexgoem (talk)
 * AladdinSE made the comments which I pointed out in my previous comments which can be found here, notably after I pointed out this I was reported for SPI by ALY which may be point out that these users if not SPs are working in collaboration and are not in Good Faith. I'll try to respond any further queries but my responses may be slow as I'm too much busy in my real life (I'll be back, may be after more than 12 hours). -- Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider t c s 05:59, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That was what I saw. The actual quote is, "In fact, all the mullahs and Ayatollahs around the world, especially in Iran, claim de[s]cent from Muhammad and Quraysh when statistically they are not even Semitic Arabs but Indo-Aryan people and therefore cannot be descendants of the family of the Prophet." Where are you seeing anything about "inferiority" there? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

92.14.73.142 and 92.14.116.65‎;
I think this is a clear case of being the same person, despite the latter IP being blocked for a month. Do i need to go through SSP? Simply south (talk) 22:41, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Blocked for vandalism 24h; seems to be dynamic IP so not matching the earlier 1mo block. Pretty obviously the same guy. / ƒETCH COMMS  /  23:22, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Wait, changed it to 1 month based on further research. I don't know if it'll change faster than 24h. / ƒETCH COMMS  /  23:24, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * What if i encounter them again under another IP which i think will happen judging what's happening? Simply south (talk) 00:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:AIV or ask for a rangeblock here. / ƒETCH COMMS  /  03:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Kurdo777 reverting Binksternet
I am wondering what should be done about User:Kurdo777 who has demonstrated a consistent pattern of edit warring behavior in which he makes out-of-hand total reversions to any of my substantial contributions to articles which touch upon Iran in 1953; reversions which are not accompanied by talk page discussion or any attempt to build consensus. The diffs listed here are only the most recent spate of reversion interactions stretching back for many months on the 1953 Iranian coup d'état article. His usual reaction to a substantial edit of mine is 100% reversion.
 * Reversion of my contribution to Darioush Bayandor, 02:17, December 14, 2010
 * Reversion of my contribution to Darioush Bayandor, 21:49, December 15, 2010
 * Reversion of my contribution to Mohammad Mosaddegh, 22:53, December 15, 2010
 * Reversion of my contribution to Mohammad Mosaddegh, 23:22, December 15, 2010
 * Reversion of my contribution to 1953 Iranian coup d'état, 21:29, December 15, 2010
 * Reversion of my contribution to 1953 Iranian coup d'état, 22:45, December 15, 2010

I have indicated on his talk page that edit summaries are not the only place for noting why a revert is taking place, that the better way to resolve content conflict per Edit summary is to participate on the talk page. Since then, Kurdo777 has not discussed any reversions of my work on an associated talk page and has even made null edits so that he can use the edit summary to put my edits down further. One of his edits listed above includes the edit summary "Rv - This is unacceptable. You reverted all my edits for no good reason", an ironic statement considering his consistent use of the 100% reversion, and an incorrect one considering I had adjusted my version to correspond with one of his disputed points, to leave out the Macmillan biography bit which stated that Bayandor was a lecturer.

I have been discussing on Talk:1953 Iranian coup d'état a new book about the topic, a scholarly book by Darioush Bayandor, an Iranian diplomat who makes non-mainstream conclusions, and Kurdo777 routinely works to marginalize the book's author and import, calling it 'fringe'. At Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#1953 Iranian coup d'état, User:Rocksanddirt told Kurdo777 to stop using the 'fringe' label to try and suppress a minority viewpoint, but in this edit to Mohammad Mosaddegh, he once again uses the fringe accusation and reverts my article improvements in their entirety.

Kurdo777 and I both were blocked in April 2010 for edit warring at 1953 Iranian coup d'état and since then he has not allowed any of my substantial content contributions to stay. This looks to me to be a personal vendetta, with Kurdo777 dead set against anything I might bring to the table on 1953 Iran topics, especially anything from the new book by Bayandor. It is unacceptable behavior in a fellow editor, not collegial, and bad for the project. I wonder whether Kurdo777 should be blocked or topic-banned to stop the harm that he is doing by his edit warring. Binksternet (talk) 01:43, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The truth is the exact opposite. I am surprised that Binksternet decided to file a complaint against me, given his own behavior and record. He cites Rocksanddirt's comment to me as some sort of proof that he is right, while ignoring the fact that 3 other editors, in the same discussion, told him that Darioush Bayandor should not be given any weight in this article. (Example ) This exemplifies his tendency to ignore what he does not like to hear, ignore consensus, and engage in edit-waring while violating various Wikipedia polices dealing with sourcing. A simple count of the revisions on this article, shows that Binksternet is the party responsible for most reverts, and may have had twice as many reverts as me in the past year. He has a habbit of reverting, instead of discussing, to make his desired changes. He also abuses automated revisions which are meant to be used against simple vandalism, to edit-war in content disputes. That is why he was recently blocked for one week for excessive reverting and disruption.   Kurdo777 (talk) 02:44, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

This is a content dispute. I previously blocked both Binksternet and Kurdo for this kind of edit warring on 1953 Iranian coup d'état. However, I have since come to the conclusion that Binksternet is the main instigator and culprit of the edit wars on the article and related pages. He ignores content-related polices, overlooks consensus, and tries to forcefully implement his POV-ridden changes onto these articles. Today, for example, he was told told by no less than four different editors/administrators (on the article talk page and fringe theories noticeboard) that a book that he is trying to introduce to these articles as a reference is in fact a fringe source. In addition, he has been told that the author should not be given any weight for now, yet he continues to attempt to introduce to the source to one of these articles despite the consensus against it. Binksternet has also been stalking several editors who have opposed his view on 1953 Iranian coup d'état, into other related and unrelated articles, which he had never edited before. Given that the sheer volume of Binksternet's reverts, and that since my block in April, Kurdo has stayed clear of trouble, while Binksternet has been blocked twice for edit warring and disruption, I would recommend a warning or a short block for Kurdo, and a minimum two week block for Binksternet - given his failure to have learned anything from his last block which was one week long. Khoikhoi 03:12, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Brief view of the recent history of the articles provided above:
 * Darioush Bayandor - on the 15th Binksternet makes cosmetic changes, one not-quite-so-good (changing ref name="economist" to ref name=Economist) and changing Pahlavi dynasty to Shah Pahlavi (something which had been reverted previously). Reverted by Kurdo, who made the first revert against the dynasty -> shah on the 14th. Also on the 14th, removes references to Bayandor's theories as being "revisionist" (Economist). 2 reverts by Binksternet on the same day.
 * 1953 Iranian coup d'état - Binksternet changes an image caption that had read "According to the CIA's declassified documents and records, some of the most feared mobsters in Teheran were hired by the CIA to stage pro-Shah riots on August 19, 1953. Other CIA-paid men were brought into Tehran in buses and trucks, and took over the streets of the city." to read "A Tehran weekly printed a photo of armed men and soldiers with a tank.". This article again has 2 reverts by Binksternet on the same day.
 * Mohammad Mosaddegh - adds contextually relevant though questionably sourced material, changing "More popular than ever, a greatly strengthened" to "Politically strengthened by his reinstatement as prime minister and by a favorable decision made by the International Court of Justice endorsing Iran's position on oil nationalisation", with the Bayandor source. I don't actually see any problem with this, but it's followed by another source altogether and may be seen to create an impression of WP:SYNTH to bolster Bayandor's presence throughout these articles. I'd AGF on that, since the edit did provide context.

This could easily be construed as tendentious. The image caption change reeks of white-washing. Both editors are skirting around 3RR. Xavexgoem (talk) 03:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and blocked for 2 weeks, per Khoikhoi and myself. Kurdo's reverts were within reason, but I encourage them to seek mediation in the future. Xavexgoem (talk) 03:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

For the record, there are Binksternet's reverts and partial-reverts on the same pages, during the last two days, many with misleading edit-summaries like "trimming", "wording" etc, and often coupled with smokescreen-type of edits like fixing the referencing format or a technical edit of some sort, in order to hide the nature of the edit (revert) : Kurdo777 (talk) 03:38, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Darioush Bayandor Revision as of 22:37, 13 December 2010
 * Darioush Bayandor Revision as of 01:17, 14 December 2010
 * Darioush Bayandor Revision as of 17:21, 15 December 2010
 * Darioush Bayandor Revision as of 21:39, 15 December 2010
 * 1953 Iranian coup d'état: Revision as of 15:43, 13 December 2010
 * 1953 Iranian coup d'état: Revision as of 22:24, 13 December 2010
 * 1953 Iranian coup d'état: Revision as of 21:26, 15 December 2010
 * 1953 Iranian coup d'état: Revision as of 21:58, 15 December 2010
 * 1953 Iranian coup d'état: Revision as of 22:20, 15 December 2010

Pmanderson's claim that the current spelling of Marseille is POV-pushing
His disruptive edits: ,

This user has been reported on project pages mutliple times for tendentious edits and for creating problems, Now, without any support from WP:RS, he is suggesting that one of the two major cities in France after Paris, Marseille, is normally spelt in English with an "s". He has tagged the page twice now to suggest that this spelling violates WP:NPOV. It appears that he has decided that his next major battle on wikipedia will be over this topic. As far as I can tell, from his past editing history, he has no interest whatsoover in the content of the article or WikiProject France.

The same "argument" (whatever it is) would presumably apply also to Lyon, for which the old-fashioned spelling in English has an "s". Pmanderson has not brought up this city ... yet. Pmanderson's activity seems to be an attempt to disrupt wikipedia to make a WP:POINT.

On the talk page of Marseille—and I will not repeat the arguments or the links here—it has been carefully explained that most major English-speaking newspapers, the Encylopedia Britannica, British airlines, travel guides in English and the British and US consulates in Marseille all now adopt the spelling  without an "s". This has made no impression on Pmanderson - it seems that he believes that he is simply right and doing a huge service to wikipedia in righting a terrible wrong. The issue has no real importance, but he has made it so. Straight WP:BATTLEGROUND conduct.

I have reported this bizarre activity here in the hope of nipping it in the bud. It could be the straw that breaks the camel's back, from the point of view of ongoing problems with this editor. It certainly seems to be "his style". His block log speaks for itself. In this case he has made an unsupportable but hardly very interesting claim seemingly devised to waste other editors' time. I am unable to see any possible benefit editing of this kind could have to this encyclopedia. Mathsci (talk) 20:18, 13 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Marseilles and Lyons are perfectly normal English spellings, as used in the Oxford Dictionary of the World, for example. DuncanHill (talk) 20:35, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Not only "normal", but also common in English. Pmanderson has only himself to blame for acquiring a reputation that allows bringing his actions here based on a vague handwave toward his past problems, but in this content dispute he would seem to be correct, even in the argument that you have invented on his behalf without asking. — Gavia immer (talk) 20:39, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec) True, but that is hardly the point. As with Mumbai/Bombay and Calcutta/Kolkota, things change. The US government is not pedantic.   Tagging in the way Pmanderson did was clearly not a helpful approach to improving this encyclopedia. It does not quite rise to the level of tagging articles like Europe, for example, but it was not far off. Mathsci (talk) 20:55, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually the U.S. Government is pedantic; the Board of Geographic Names tends to prefer systematic forms to what English-speakers actually use (as the guideline on geographic names explains) and in principle their decisions are binding on the Federal Government.


 * But this complaint is another effort to settle a substantive dispute by false claims of misconduct. As the move discussion on Talk:Marseille would indicate, the fundamental issue here is my unwillingness to simply accept the opinions of a major contributor to an article.  Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:32, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't agree at all. Pmanderson's edits today have nothing to do with calm and reasoned discussion. He has chosen to adopt a battleground attitude on an article, in which, until today, he appeared to have absolutely no interest. I am currently on wikibreak, so have only a few articles on my watch list. Pmanderson's edits today on Marseille are amongst the most dire I've seen in almost five years of watching the article.  Mathsci (talk) 21:59, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Recommend WP:DR. Nothing else to see here (other than to note I just blocked PMA for similar activity, but hasn't edited the project space since). Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:06, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I was surprised to learn that Marseilles is now being spelled "Marseille" in English. This must also come as a bit of a shock to the citizens of Marseilles, Illinois, for example. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:08, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As my recent edit at Talk:Marseille will show, the (current) French spelling seems to be catching on with the sort of columnist who laces his prose with malfamé and bistronomie. It is still a less common usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:17, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I've removed the POV-title tag. There may be a good-faith discussion of which spelling should be used, as happens from time to time with many geographical names, but this cannot reasonably be framed as a "POV" issue: no "point of view" is promoted by using the spelling "Marseille" as opposed to "Marseilles" or vice versa, except on the sharply limited issue of which is the correct spelling. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:23, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * But there are two - which is why dispute resolution will be welcome: The point of view there are no distinctive English forms of names - and even more seriously, that the anglophone Governments do and should determine English usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:27, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a legitimate article title/requested move issue that is subject to dispute resolution on the basis of which title better comports with our guidelines on geographical names. Appropriate dispute resolution seems already to be well underway with the RfC/RM discussion that is now taking place on the article talkpage. Adding the "POV" tag does nothing to advance a decision as to which article title should be used. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:34, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Little enough in all honesty; but if we cannot even protest the entrenched territorial cliques which seek to use articles to promote a political or (as in this case) a linguistic program, we have very little hope of checking them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:42, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * What "political programme" is this here to promote? Who are these ""entrenched territorial cliques"? What is wrong with my "grasp of the English idiom"? Mathsci (talk) 23:02, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * For third parties (and on the off-chance that this is ingenuous):
 * As I said, "in this case a linguistic program": that the characteristic English forms of names should be downgraded, and English be subjected to Government standards.
 * Well, to begin with: "grasp of the English idiom" isn't idiomatic; neither is "dire" (unless you're writing Tolkien parody); nor is Marseille; the reactions of anglophones in this thread alone should have been enough to make the last clear.
 * And as for the clique entrenched on the territory of the article: I invite any curious reader to look through Talk:Marseille and see how the self-declared "most frequent editor" has been behaving. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:32, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you suggesting now that English might not be my native language and that is why I have not agreed with your point of view? Mathsci (talk) 00:21, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If English is your native language, you have an abominable grasp of idiom; if it is not, you have an abominable grasp of idiom, but this would be explicable. I believe l'idiotisme anglais would be correct French; but I will defer to a literate native speaker. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:36, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

But really, if having a tag added twice is "amongst the most dire" things to happen to the article in years, the real complaint here is that I have not immediately conceded to Mathsci's opinion and his grasp of English idiom on his article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:33, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * See above. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:34, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

My Webster's, dated 1994, gives Marseilles as the preferred and Marseille as a secondary spelling; Lyons as the preferred and Lyon secondary; and Rome (not Roma) as the English name for the Italian city. So it seems that the "Marseille" and "Lyon" spellings, without the "s", are the ones that writers have actually tried to impose on us, to override the traditional English spellings "Marseilles" and "Lyons". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:35, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This input is welcome, but would be better placed on the article talkpage, where the requested move discussion/RfC is in progress. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:37, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Pmanderson's continuing disruption on Marseille
Pmanderson's conduct continues to be disruptive. As well as adding various other drive-by tags and dramatic notices of innacuracy, he just tagged a reference to Thucydides in the article, claiming that Thucydides did not mention Massalia. But that claim is wholly inaccurate, since I checked the reference directly in Thucydides and also in a secondary WP:RS, a very long recent history of Marseille (in French). This second bout of tagging is as disruptive as the first. I cannot guess what Pmanderson's motives for this type of editing could be, but at first glance it appears to be unrelated to improving the encyclopedia. He has now reinstated the questioning of the quote from Thucydides. I find the edit summaries that he left with his talk page diffs extermely aggressive without provocation. It seems that Pmanderson is questioning a number of statements which are not in doubt, although, as always, could be better sourced. On the other hand—and I think he has decided to take this as a personal attack—I pointed out that he himself probably does not have access to a detailed history of Marseille. I do, but at present I see no point in using my own history sources to edit the article when overnight it has been transformed unrecognizably from an anodyne backwater into a full-blown toxic WP:BATTLEGROUND, (In RL I am very busy finishing off a research paper, which probably will be linked by another user to one of the mathematics articles. That partially explains my wikibreak from articles.) Maunus has written that the tags are not merited. He wrote in his edit summary: " Probably the tags should be removed altogether this looks like someone is trying to make a WP:POINT". That is my feeling too. Mathsci (talk) 03:03, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I've noticed before that Pmanderson is quick to tag. It would be helpful if he could use the tags as a last resort only (i.e., when prolonged discussion has failed, or when he has looked for sources and found none, but removal is being reverted), and then only if the text leaves verifiability or neutrality issues. We shouldn't use tags to signal that we personally dislike something. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 03:49, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for intervening SV. The Peloponnesian war is one of the texts that has been studied to death (we had to read book IV at grammar school in England) and there are numerous commentaries. The particular seven word sentence referring to the colonisation of Marseille has generated pages and pages of comments. Here is one example that runs over three pages (310-312). More modern ones place the history in the context of recent archeological discoveries and in fact are unsurprisingly in agreement with most of what is in the article. The ancient history of Marseille seems to have some kind of fatal attraction. Mathsci (talk) 04:25, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * This appears to match a textbook definition of WP:POINT - I have asked PMA to explain his reasoning and intent.
 * As a rule, not the sort of behavior a recently blocked, historically multi-blocked editor under all sorts of additional scrutiny should be engaging in. At all.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:05, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * This statement is another effort to settle a content dispute by spurious conduct charges. In addition, it alleges that I said things I did not say, and do not hold.


 * While waiting for the RM to settle itself, I read through the article, and found the ancient history section seemed most implausible. It cites three sources.
 * Thucydides is claimed to support the settlement of Marseilles in 600 BC. He does mention the Phocaean settlement at Marseilles, but gives no date. (I have now said three times that he mentions the settlement; all this is on the talk page; therefore Mathsci's assertion above is false.)
 * A book called Vintage; the History of Wine is cited for trade between Massalia and Rome in 500 BC. It actually discusses the trade around 125 BC.
 * These claims, therefore, I tagged as failing verification, and added Talk:Marseille to discuss them.


 * The proper response to such tags, I thought, is to answer them; to fix the article, to convince me I am wrong, or to convince a consensus that I am mistaken. Mathsci did none of these; instead he reverted; so I restored them until one of the three appropriate means of resolution can be done. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:27, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Tagging can often be seen (rightly or wrongly) as simply a way of signalling that we didn't get to make the edits we wanted. It's best to do it only after trying everything else, including prolonged discussion, and looking for additional sources yourself. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 04:38, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Since the the existing sources don't support the text, and my relatively careful phrasing has been read to assert something I have never said, I doubt additional sources will do any good. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:44, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * A quick Google Books search shows several sources for the founding date, including this from George William Cox, published in 1874 (p. 156), which helpfully cites its sources in a footnote. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 04:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Here is another footnote in a more recent text dating the founding of Marseille to c 600 BC. It is one of many. What is interesting here, and a reason for administrators to keep tabs on Pmanderson, is that this time he has chosen to disrupt in a disproprtionate and uprovoked way a neutral and uncontentious article, amongst the main wikipedia articles on France.  I made a simple edit modifying "historically" to "in antiquity" in the lede ; then very shortly afterwards Pmanderson appeared to tag the section of the article concerned with  classical antiquity. Pmanderson appears to be more interested in other editors than in content. Mathsci (talk) 13:17, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * FWIW, this date is likely taken from Jerome's Chronicle, which provides the date of 598 BC. Whether or not it was the actual date... Well, that requires performing a source criticism of Jerome's work & an archeologist's interpretation of the numerous excavations of the city. But to determine that requires someone to pursue that angle in the secondary literature. -- llywrch (talk) 21:46, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Who was right and why in this dispute is beside the point here - all that can be resolved at the talk page. What is relevant here is how the dispute was handled.If you add a tag in good faith and that tag is removed, especially with someone with whom you're already disputing, I suggest presuming WP:AGF and the R in WP:BRD and proceed with D. Do not engage in yet another edit war, no matter how sure you are that you are correct. This is an edit war 
 * (cur | prev) 18:08, December 14, 2010 Pmanderson (talk | contribs) m (77,945 bytes) (Reverted edits by Mathsci (talk) to last version by Pmanderson) (undo)
 * (cur | prev) 17:50, December 14, 2010 Mathsci (talk | contribs) (77,826 bytes) (Undid revision 402439004 by Pmanderson (talk) tagging seems inaccurate) (undo)
 * (cur | prev) 17:21, December 14, 2010 Pmanderson (talk | contribs) (77,945 bytes) (→Prehistory and classical antiquity: not really.) (undo)

Again. No matter how sure you are that you are correct... don't edit war. Just don't. Take it to the talk page. I've learned that lesson without ever being blocked; how many more times does PMA need to be blocked to learn that lesson? --Born2cycle (talk) 06:05, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As this kind of information about the early origins of Marseille is copious and freely available in academic sources, there was no rationale beyond simple disruption for the edits of Pmanderson. At least PHG did his research properly even if he was at that stage pushing Greek colonistation of Provence a little too far. I would hope that Pmanderson might take note of what NYB, SV, GWH and Maunus have told him and drop this habit of disrupting wikipedia to make a WP:POINT. Mathsci (talk) 10:56, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Please note the participants in the Franco-Mongol case; I know all about PHG. This continued series of personal attacks, to defend an innacurate rendition of a local history of a century ago, is indefensible. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:24, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Request to block Pmanderson for removing sourced content and continuing his tagging campaign
This editor has been warned for tagging the article by four administrators, Newyorkbrad, SlimVirgin, Maunus and Gerogewilliamherbert. He has now added tags and removed a substantial amount of sourced content. What he has written contradicts one of the main sources, I have no idea why he is behaving in this way after the mutliple warnings he has received, but his block record speaks for itself. Mathsci (talk) 14:20, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have, as requested by SlimVirgin, on Talk:Marseille, found other sources; I have added them, with input from third parties; my sources may be seen in this exact reversion, which looks like Mathsci's fourth in the last 24 hours; see the history of the article. (There are better sources, which I could add shortly; but why bother when they will only be reverted.)


 * Please deal with this disruptive WP:OWN violation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:17, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec) I have reverted Pmanderson's later "essay-like" additions because they conflict with known sources. The legend of Protis and Gyptis was removed, despite being sourced. The legend has the same status as that of Mary Magdalen being conveyed on a sailless boat without rudder or oar from the Holy Land to Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer in the Camargue and then, following her death in a cave on the Sainte-Baume, being wafted by angels to Aix-en-Provence and the site of the cathedral of the St Sauveur. But the provencal legend is well sourced and discussed carefully in those sources. it can therefore be included in a wikipedia article (as a legend).  Pmanderson included a phrase about a "romantic idea" that seems to be of his invention. But wikipedia is not Pmanderson's blog, he can't act as a historian here, and he should be editing according to the usual rules of wikipedia: no special rules apply to him. He should avoid removing sourced content just because of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. His approach is unscholarly and adversarial. Nobody expects to read Marseille and suddenly come across a little essay on the history of Marseille "according to Pmanderson", an unknown author with unknown credentials. There are excellent sources and Pmanderson is simply not using them. Some of the principal ones happen to be in French: I don't find that in the least bit surprising. Once sources are known to exist on the history of Marseille, it's not a great idea to dismiss them and then attempt to cobble together the history from fragmentary sources elsewhere. Pmanderson seems to have a bee in his bonnet about French sources and possibly even the French: that does not in any way excuse his disruptive behaviour. Some of the comments levelled at me, which I have ignored, indicate that he thinks that I am French, which is not the case.  Although on en.wikipedia, we do not use fr.wikipedia as a source, editors concerned with WikiProject France usually do pay attention to the corresponding articles there, which usually are written prior to the English version. (Exceptionally that was not true with Chateau of Vauvenargues but fr:Église_Saint-Jean-de-Malte_d'Aix-en-Provence has no English equivalent: that would be an article that I would normally consider writing, although not if I'm scared off WikiProject France by hostile editors like Pmanderson.) In the case of major cities, the French language articles can provide a useful guide to missing content. When the two corrsponding articles become widely divergent and contradictory (as was the case with Pmanderson's personal essay on the history of Marseille), alarm bells will normally ring. That is just common sense. Mathsci (talk) 18:30, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Pmanderson is misrepresenting his own actions. He removed a lot of sourced content that he didn't happen to like. His actions are as disruptive as those that have resulted in previous warnings and blocks. He certainly didn't seem to like the legend of Protis and Gyptis, which he removed, That is a short section that I rewrote and sourced. Certainly SlimVirgin was not suggesting that he remove content that he didn't like, that he restore his tags and that he rewrite the ancient history section as a personalised essay from fragmentary sources. Pmanderson is not righting a great wrong. He is just attempting to manufacture a WP:BATTLE by editing in as awkward a way as possible. It is a classic case of disrupting WP  to make a WP:POINT, as others have already commented.  Mathsci (talk) 18:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Mathsci is telling great and small untruths. As his revert-warring will show, I retained the fable of Protis and Gyptis; what this good soul omits is the consensus of the sources that it isn't likely to be true - whether or not Massalia was founded in 600 NC, it wasn't founded like this. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:58, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Can I suggest that this be resolved by sticking closely to academic secondary sources? It would make sense to write up a brief suggestion for that section, together with the sources, and post it on talk for discussion. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 20:32, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

PMA and Mathsci both blocked for 48 hrs for edit warring
IMHO - Both stepped clearly across the line. PMA backed away incrementally from his prior behavior but not from disruptive editing of the article. He did engage on the talk page, but kept butting heads with people. Mathsci kept reverting without adequate talk page involvement.

Both parties are longtime users with extensive experience with dispute resolution. They both know what we expect of editors participating in a content dispute. Neither chose to act in accordance with our policy and community standards. Both are blocked for 48 hrs.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:48, 15 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I can't say I agree with the Mathsci block, George. It seems to be a "pox on both your houses" response, which can often be unfair. PMA has a history of this kind of approach, and a long block log as a result. I'm less familiar with Mathsci's editing, but looking at the diffs, he seems to have reverted three times between Dec 13 and 15,   and he brought the issue to AN/I to request help. I can't see how those reverts alone can fairly trigger a 48-hour block. He has only two previous blocks, both in 2008 and both regarding the same issue, as I recall, and it had nothing to do with edit warring.  SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 00:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * We have a problem here in that George blocked Mathsci and PMA for 48 hours, then went offline. So now at least one of them (perhaps both) is arguably unfairly blocked with no one to sort it out. I'm reluctant to unblock Mathsci, because I would also have to make a decision about PMA, and as he's someone I've disputed issues with in the past, I don't feel uninvolved enough. But I'm not happy about seeing Mathsci blocked for 48 hours for three reverts in three days, accompanied by talk-page discussion and considerable provocation (in my view) from PMA. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 04:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Review and additional input on Mathsci's unblock request would be useful at this time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm highly inclined to grant Mathsci's unblock request. After review of this thread and the Marseille talk page, I'm not seeing any grounds for blocking him. Courcelles 04:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * According to Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race_and_intelligence, Mathsci's engaged in "borderline edit warring in May [35][36][37][38] and June.[39][40][41][42] This editor was also formally reminded not to edit war in the Abd-William M. Connolley arbitration." To simply say that there was nothing to do with edit-warring or there was no grounds for blocking is questionable. Ncmvocalist (talk) 04:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As I said, Ncmv, I'm not really familiar with Mathsci's editing, but I do feel this is a long block for a small number of reverts, and without warning that I can see, especially as he was making other edits that appeared to be improving the article by adding sources, e.g. here. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 04:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If there is an unfamiliarity with the user's editing, then obviously it's going to seem like there are no grounds for a block whatsoever. I think the fact that he was warned in an arbitration ruling, the fact that the behavior was identified again in a more recent arbitration ruling with clearer terms (borderline) is quite sufficient to the point that you would expect the editor to avoid doing the same - without yet another warning. His restriction from that recent ruling was in the process of being lifted so he should be especially mindful of what not to do. What I am saying is that it is incorrect to assert that a block was unjustified (which is what you seem to be saying - according to Mathsci). GWH was familiar with the user's editing, and with the arbitration, as far as I am aware. All that said, Pmanderson did misuse rollback as well, and does seem to have been making pointy edits, so on the grounds that the block has served its purpose (as time served) and that per his unblock request, he will be more mindful of his reverts (and avoid that behavior in the future), I'd support Mathsci's unblock. (I'd oppose an unblock on the grounds that the block was unjustified.) Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:43, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm looking at the narrower picture here, with some awareness of the wider one, but it was justified here specific to the recent incident (IMHO).
 * PMA took the issues in good faith to the talk page, but kept doing things very nearly alike what he'd been warned was disruptive and told to stop.
 * Mathsci did less disruptive stuff, but kept doing it and didn't go to the article talk page to discuss it in good faith. He was engaged in other discussions there, but not with PMA on the key disruption points over the period he was reverting.  Mere participation in talk page discussion (which Mathsci did over that time period) doesn't mean he was discussing what he was reverting enough to avoid it being at least marginally a sterile revert / edit war.  PMA's larger disruption explains but does not justify Mathsci responding with repeated reverts rather than engagement.
 * Mathsci has responded reasonably and deescalated. He was seeking outside review prior to the last actions.  Reduction to time served would be reasonable.  I'm going to do that now.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Confirming - Mathsci is now unblocked, reduced to time served. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:59, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've been around Mathsci for a long time. He is an extremely good content contributor (I'd go as far as to say one of Wikipedia's best) who is mostly sensible but has a tendency to get prima donna-ish in some situations, and whose approach to DR isn't always the greatest.  I'm less familiar with PMA but I think I've seen him/her around the mathematics refdesk and s/he is also pretty good.  I didn't even try to read this mind-wobbling dispute much, so I can only think of this.  Can't those two have WP:TEA instead of fighting?  Anyway, I'm all for unblocking Mathsci if (without having to admit fault for edit warring) he says he's ready to edit again and that he can maintain calm discourse going forward.  On general principles, that's probably also the right approach for PMA.  67.117.130.143 (talk) 06:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)  OK, Mathsci is unblocked now, which is good. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 06:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * @ GWH: Thanks for unblocking me and responding to other administrators promptly.
 * General comment Slimvirgin's comment about secondary sources is a key point here and very well made. Most detailed material concerned with the history of Marseille is not surprisingly in French, since it is the history of a place. Writing about Porte d'Aix required buying the 50 page detailed booklet: I did not use the article on fr.wikipedia at all. (Looking at the French article now, it would be an idea to incorporate the newly added photographs of architectural details in a gallery, as happened at Arc de Triomphe, a move which I helped instigate.) I know of nowhere else where the detailed information could be found. The same applies to the history section in the article about Marseille, which I believe was originally a largely unsourced direct translation of the French wikipedia article. Often it can be the case that a book cannot be found on the web. The anecdotes about Francois I and the stranded rhinocerus on the Chateau d'If and the story about Louis XIV arriving on horseback and ordering his troops to fire a cannonball through the city walls are items a casual reader might tag as being unlikely. However, they are recorded in WP:RS. I cannot see any merit in using outdated texts from around 1900 to write history, Again that problem arose with Auguste Pavie, in connection with PHG, and although Pavie's own journals are available on the web, these are primary sources which can only be used in conjunction with secondary sources. In that particular case there was a recent illustrated monograph on French explorers (in french) which I used as the principal source for writing the article. The book is not available on the web except for snippet view. Mathsci (talk) 07:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Powerchip
I have blocked temporarily for legal threats. However, I am concerned that they may have true concerns regarding article content. I would request more experienced editors to take a look at the recent flurry of edits to determine if any of them need to be reverted to avoid trouble for Wikipedia. I have e-mailed the foundation and will notify the IP of the post. Thanks  Tide  rolls  03:34, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems closer to AFD or Speedy Deletion than anything. It looks like some legit concerns The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 03:39, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've semi-protected the article and removed the unsourced negative stuff. I agree with TRA that we probably have a deletion candidate on our hands here.--Mkativerata (talk) 03:41, 14 December 2010 (UTC)


 * There's a retraction of sorts on the IP's talk page. If another admin wishies to unblock I won't scream.  However, I don't think this would help the present situation.   Tide  rolls  03:44, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yep, it's still a legal threat (against the "poofters"). --Mkativerata (talk) 03:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Article at AFD see Articles for deletion/Powerchip The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 03:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've just waded through the page history. What a mess. I've made two revision deletions but other admins might find cause to do more. --Mkativerata (talk) 03:54, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I took out six more versions. No way am I going to let that stay in the history. - Krakatoa  Katie  05:49, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) The AfD is being hit by anon IPs and SPA accounts, one of which is making "statements" about someone's wife. Can someone look into that and block as necessary? One of the IPs is clearly also double voting as an SPA account. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 14:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I just speedied it -- it appeared purely promotional to me, and the opinion on the AfD was unanimously for deletion anyway. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've also salted the founder's bio, since it was created today for the purpose of attacking him. If notability is established, it can be unprotected. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:29, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't forget chip tuning, where that same person is mentioned. Uncle G (talk) 04:58, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed that and linked to here from talk:chip tuning. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 06:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Legal threat
Made by user RubinAttorney at Harry M. Rubin. Edward321 (talk) 01:03, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Blocked, advice to contact the WMF at their contact page. Don't think there is anything else to do here.  -- Jayron  32  01:11, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Is it just me, or does that article look really socky? And if RubinAttorney is an actual attorney, I'll eat my hat. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:19, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have blocked both User:RubinAttorney and User:RabidMelon as obvious socks of one another. RabidMelon restored the legal threat after it was removed.  -- Jayron  32  01:22, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Under the circumstances, maybe the page could be SPed for a bit? An awful lot of "new" account activity there. Half  Shadow  01:28, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There are 2-3 other accounts (then I stopped looking) with a similar MO in the last few months, and with no edits to other topics. I suppose since they're serial, rather than concurrent, it isn't a huge deal. But if they show up again now that the most recent accounts are blocked, then semi-protection or an SPI for an IP block might be in order. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

(Outdent) There seems to be quite a bit more at play here. The "RubinAttorney" account was created on the 16th. The "RabidMelon" account was created Sept 11, 2009, and has edited almost exclusively... articles about a children's author named Cathy Rubin and a book she wrote... which Harry M. Rubin is named as an editor for, as well as the Harry M. Rubin article. Going back through the history of Harry M. Rubin shows a looooong history of SPAs, probably all related to these same accounts. I'm going to file an SPI on them, but I'm wondering if we have either someone with a COI here or someone who has an unhealthy obsession with this family? - Burpelson AFB ✈ 13:37, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Another sock was created, so I've protected the article for a week. This looks like a long-term problem, and evidently they've found the IP reset button, so we might be looking at long term semiprotection. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:16, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The article in its current form appears to be very neutral; if anything, it's largely positive. Perhaps the complainant is of the impression that BLP's require their subjects' "permission". Otherwise, if the complainant could state what specific objections he has, that would help. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Article looks spammy to me. I always want to delete such articles, but I know how hard that is. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 06:43, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It could always be modified to cut out the spam and/or nominated for deletion. Not by someone threatening to sue, though, but by someone challenging notability or whatever. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't edit the article due to protection, and I hate getting sucked into such things anyway. But I notice it is currently sourced mostly to press releases and what I'd consider to be primary sources.  If you AfD it, I'll support deletion, but WP practice in this area is so screwed up that it's likely a lost cause. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 07:21, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I changed C. M. Rubin (about Harry M. Rubin's spouse) to a redirect. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 07:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If you take out the questionable stuff, how much would be left? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You're basically asking what it would take to make that guy's advertising page acceptable to Wikipedia. I'm much more interested in deleting it on the grounds that we don't do advertising, than in spending probably 2 or more hours cleaning it up for him for free (and it would still be an ad, even after that).  There's basically nothing in it sourced to high quality RS, but on the other hand, most of it is just fluff rather than being really contentious, so wiping the content indiscriminately (leaving a minimal stub) would be a bit pointy.  I'd instead have to carefully weigh and research each bit of fluff for possible relevance/retention, rewrite stuff carefully to tone down the spamminess, check around for better sourcing, etc.  I think we're not here for that, or at least we shouldn't be.  The article is IINFO, a COI vehicle, and a drama magnet all at the same time, and it's just not worth it and we're better off without it.  IMO, articles like this should be speedy-deleted and if an unconflicted editor later wants to write a neutral article about the person from scratch, they can do so. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 09:58, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Samuel_Adams_(beer) (partly about same guy, and his buddies) needs cleanup too. I hate Wikipedia sometimes.  67.117.130.143 (talk) 11:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * SPI concluded quickly, puppeteer and sock all blocked. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 18:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I suggest PROD or AfD for the article. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 20:34, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit war/socks? at Edward Wyckoff Williams
Would someone be able to quickly stop what's going on here - sorry I'm a bit busy, and don't have time for a proper 3RR and all that. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Closer look - it looks like there's been a continual edit war going on since the end of October! -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Fully protected the page to expire in 1 week while the situation is discussed here. Made sure to protect the wrong version. --GraemeL (talk) 17:17, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As you were doing that, I was blocking one user for violating the username policy (impersonating a username). TN X</b> Man  17:21, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I would suggest that gets a message pointing out policy on edit warring and dispute resolution and that we leave the protection on the page to expire in the hope that things will calm down in the interim. Off to eat, I'll take care of it if nobody else has by the time I get back. --GraemeL (talk) 17:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Editor made aware of policy and dispute resolution. Warned to not engage in further edit warring when protection expires. I've watchlisted the article and would encourage a few more admins to do likewise. --GraemeL (talk) 18:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the quick response, folks. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:46, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Probable sock
Looks like User:SantaColemanFan is probably another sock for the list at Sockpuppet investigations/ECW500/Archive. (He helpfully left me a hint at my Talk page, here) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes this editor needs to be blocked. -- Crohnie Gal Talk  12:55, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * did hea ctually TAG HIMsELF!? as a sockpuppet? i gues that saves the checkusers some time!! User:Smith Jones 14:14, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I tagged the socks userpage. The sock put a sock tag on someone else's talk page. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 14:44, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, he tagged my page to suggest I was one of his socks - kindly leading us straight to the ducks. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:55, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * All of the ColemanFans (other than my account, of course) are created to harass me. I guess I was one of the first (if not the first) to give him a vandalism warning, so this has been going on for a couple of years or so. Thanks for blocking him. GaryColemanFan (talk) 22:50, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Nassim Nicholas Taleb
There's something of a conflict of interest at Nassim Nicholas Taleb. User wtites, on his own user page, "I just make sure that some contentious material related to someone related to me (NASSIM NICHOLAS TALEB) whose INTERESTS I represent is properly dealt with.". That user edits only Talib-related articles. There's the possibility that and, both of whom seem to concentrate their efforts on Talib-related articles , are connected to IbnAmioun, but that's speculative at this point.

The general editing pattern is to praise Talib to the point that the hype becomes embarrassing. I've tried to dial the hype back a bit. I've only made 3 small edits to the article itself, all of which have been reverted. The discussion on Talk:Nassim Nicholas Taleb, though, is amusing.

There's a WP:OWN problem. Part of the problem is that Talib uses many neologisms in his writing, and IbnAmioun objects to use of the standard terms. ("Taleb, let me insist again, ran "protection protocols" rather than funds.") There's also a long-running controversy in the financial press over whether Talib's funds actually made much money for the investors. (This is a generic problem with hedge funds, incidentally, because they don't have to report their results to the SEC. It's not just Talib.  But it offers an opportunity for hype, by focusing on the "up" years.)  Mentioning Talib's detractors in that context, even on Talk, gets IbnAmioun very upset. And then there's just pure hype, like the infobox reading "Fields: Aphorist, essayist, epistemologist, statistician, risk engineer and trader". I changed that to "Hedge fund manager, essayist, statistician", per a New York Times references, and Talib's team had a cow.

Taleb is a noteworthy character, but the hype level here has been cranked up to 11 by his team and needs to be turned down a bit. Help from Wall Street types would be appreciated. --John Nagle (talk) 21:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * What a mess. Tagged with Advert, Cleanup, and COI for now. Needs going through with a fine-toothed comb to remove all the puffery. I can't even figure out who the guy is because of all the flattery. <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;"> N419 BH  21:37, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

This is a horrible mess. Most recently, IbnAmioun tagged an edit as "VANDALISM" in an edit summary because the editor was trying to maintain an NPOV. I've blocked the guy for 31 hours for NPA violations and his years-long history of other inappropriate behavior, ranging from WP:OWN to the shameless COI to the repeated history of legal threats (veiled and otherwise) (if anybody feels that a block is the wrong way to go, feel free to revert me and discuss it here). This isn't even the first time his behavior has ended up in this forum! -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  21:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * hello mike,
 * IMHO this vandalims case is a good example. The success in 2007 is a widely reported news piece, with no one ever arguing it wass untrue. Now user Nagle edited this never doubted piece of news to "claimed success". I cannot argue whether it counts to vandalism exactly, but it seems to be out of line, and i can emphasize with someone seeing it as unacceptable Yechezkel Zilber (talk) 23:16, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * is this a veiled legal threat? <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;"> N419 BH  21:50, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I chose to assume that it was not when I reverted that edit. I do, however, think that there's a long term problem with the Taleb article and IbnAmioun's edits there; see previous discussions of various isues:
 * Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive544
 * Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive545
 * Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive551
 * At the very least, IbnAmioun has a COI on the subject of Taleb, and he should be encouraged to follow policy when editing that article. — Gavia immer (talk) 22:09, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not a legal threat, but it's sure as hell evidence of a severe "OWN" problem of the sort we can't continue to ignore. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  22:14, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) IbnAmioun is requesting to be unblocked, reasoning: "Representative of person under DANGEROUS smear campaign." I take that to mean that he claims to be Mr. Taleb's lawyer. Sailsbystars (talk) 22:16, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems that this situation has been going on for years. IbnAmioun is currently blocked for 31 hours; it seems very likely that he'll go back to POV-pushing in this article as soon as the block expires.  It also seems that this isn't the first time he's been at ANI, with no significant change or improvement.  Personally, I think that a much stronger hand is called for.  I've added the article in question to my watchlist, and I'm perfectly happy to do the 'escalating series of blocks' thing on his very next biased, uncivil, or WP:OWN edit... but would it be easier, given the history, to just impose a topic ban now? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

The conflict on Taleb's page can be traced to a few finance professionals who seem to be particularly incensed about Taleb and his success. I am a finance professional myself, and I have edited many other pages. The amount of vandalism on Taleb's page is astonishing, either through simple profanity or through the dispute of facts, even when the links to stories are clearly provided or are easily accessible on the web. Nagle itself seems to have an issue with Universa, ignoring articles like the one published by Bloomberg on Oct 14 2008 (available on the Bloomberg terminal, and copies of the text are available on the web). That kind of selective edit is more like a personal attack than a concerned effort for style and substance. MCarr (talk) 22:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not trying to hype or discredit anyone here. Its obvious that Taleb evokes strong sentiments of all kinds from all kinds. The man has been under smear campaigns and even threats (death threats as well)- Nagle's behaviour seems to border on obsession ( and I do admit it concerns me) the way he seems to discredit and obsessively ask for "audited numbers".such information might be private or only specific people might be privy to it. All I say is if there are issues with the article- lets discuss it in a civil manner. The guy keeps screaming for "numbers" and "proofs" when the article itself does NOT refer or include them. Lets solve this silliness and move on. Asim samiuddin (talk) 22:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Asim
 * To be fair, the subject area seems to be infested with SPAs of many sorts, not just those promoting Taleb. See the fun at this afd from a few months ago. Sailsbystars (talk) 22:43, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems that I was tagged as a SPA by you; I have edited articles since 2006, and although my day job has not allowed me to dedicate enough time to diversify my edits, the aggressive editing on the related subjects does attract my attention. MCarr (talk) 23:01, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I tried to make a few edits on that page but quickly backed away because of the fan club protecting it. I have enough of this type of behaviour to deal with on other pages. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:46, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Just FYI, a thread on this subject has been open for a day or two at the Biographies of Living Persons Noticeboard.. I was not aware of the prior ANI history with this article, and recommended dispute resolution.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:14, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

ANY neutral involvement in the taleb entry is desirable. The more people from here editing the Taleb entry the better, anyone coming from this page has no prior opinion, making the whole thing balanced and neutral Yechezkel Zilber (talk) 00:44, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

(Ibnamioun is paranoid and he may have reasons as some cases were looking as if editors have a direct want to degrade taleb. In this case, for example an old case of reporter error was digged up in an argument that felt pretty much anti taleb. As the saying goes, every paranoia has its source) Yechezkel Zilber (talk) 00:44, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Ibn Amioun is frequently irritating certainly, but in his defence I think we need to take into account cultural factors: I suspect there is a lot of pride in Taleb's home town, as well as in Lebanon generaly, that someone from the region has achieved such prominence on the global stage. It is fair to say that often the Western media presents the Middle-East in a negative light, as a sort of Medieval backwater, and perhaps the fierce support given to Taleb may be a defensive reaction to this negativity. Anyway this is the sense I got when dealing with Ibn Amioun. I had some sympathy for him, despite his overly aggressive conduct.


 * I think Ibn Amioun should be given a fair go, keep in mind that at least he did disclose that he was from Taleb's home town. Inchiquin (talk) 11:45, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Help
Can an admin please delete this revision? It is outrageous and very disturbing. <span style="font-family:'tahoma bold',serif;border:1px solid Black;"> Nowyouseeme talk2me  01:16, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅. Also removed the link from your post. <font color="#C50">Nakon  01:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. <span style="font-family:'tahoma bold',serif;border:1px solid Black;"> Nowyouseeme talk2me  01:23, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No problem with the revdel, but blocking the IP was sort of useless since the nasty vandalism occurred 2 years ago and the IP hasn't edited since then. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 01:29, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I must have missed that, sorry. Unblocking. <font color="#C50">Nakon  01:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * CAT:RFRD. Especially for an old thing like that, email discretion is probably preferable to ANI urgency. Rd232 talk 02:05, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

User:Hometown Kid
User:Hometown Kid keeps inserting chart-peaks to the Rick Ross discography without providing sources. I recently cleaned up the discography of Rick Ross as it was lacking sources and had a lot of unverifiable peaks. I have warned the user four times already at his talk page that he should not insert peaks if he cannot source them. Instead the user persistently keeps inserting peaks again that cannot be found in the currently provided sources and refuses to follow WP:V. The user claims at his talk page that he views Billboard's charts on weekly bases and updates peaks accordingly, but again refuses to follow wikipedia's policy and continues to alter Rick Ross dicography in a similar manner leaving messages of this kind in edit-summaries, 1, 2. I'd appreciate it if someone could approach this user in a way to help that discography remain sourced and verifiable. Thanks.--Harout72 (talk) 07:58, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * User:Harout72 is removing some valuable chart data simply because they're not verified, and I already explained to him the reason why the sources don't prove all the chart positions he keeps removing. I told him instead of removing the unverified positions that he should put an asterisk beside each one showing that they're unverified, Drake discography is an example of what I'm talking about in the other chart songs section. Unlike Harout72, I've been always checking the billboard charts every single week that's they're updated, I've seen those chart positions before and when I add or update positions on wikipedia I usually include in my edit summaries that I'm updating it or adding it in because of what I saw. Also I would advice this guy to actually start check billboard charts every thursday when they're updated and stop heavily depending on the the verifiability of the sources provided. Thanks.Hometown Kid (talk) 14:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I would strongly advise you to read up on Wikipedia's verifiability policies, before you get yourself in trouble. --Carnildo (talk) 00:32, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Question to administrators

What is the next step I need to take, because Hometown Kid keeps on making the same exact edits, again leaving all his inserted peaks unverifiable.--Harout72 (talk) 02:45, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I've looked at "All I Do Is Win" and it peaked at #8 according to the article already cited in the article. It charted twice according to the that list, first in February peaking at #89 and again in June peaking at #8. Mattg82 (talk) 13:48, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

User:GageSkidmore
Copied from WP:AIV:

"* - vandalism after final warning. I understand if it is decided that Gage wasn't warned enough, but I want to point the personal attacks Gage made against User: Jj98 andUser: Ctjf83. Gage is taking the nomination for deletion of New Kidney in Town way too personally. JDDJS (talk) 05:36, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Exactly where he attacked another editor(s)? Also, you are taking the deletion of that article too personal (create two AFD) <font color="#C40233">Tbh®tch Talk <font color="#007000">© <font face="Lucida Calligraphy">Happy Holidays 05:42, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No. Check Ctjf83's talk page and Jj98 was attacked on the New Kidney in Town deletion page. Both are clear personal attacks. The only reason for him not to br blocked for a limited time is the lack of warnings he had (but I doubted he would've listened even if he was warned considering he deleted my warning with the summary "I don't need to be lectured") JDDJS (talk) 05:49, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This edit here

and here and this one here. JDDJS (talk) 05:53, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * that is not vandalism for say "vandalism after final warning" (even the word with "v"). Also link 1/2 is not a personal attack, tell someone is not welcomed is not an "attack", and for the link 3, is a sarcasm, which is not an attack, just is a strong irony, why you don't take this to ANI innstead?<font color="#C40233">Tbh®tch Talk <font color="#007000">© <font face="Lucida Calligraphy">Happy Holidays 06:02, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * :::Here he denies doing anything wrong and here he shows he doesn't care about being warned. . I believe this shows that he needs to be blocked to learn a lesson. JDDJS (talk) 06:05, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess ANI is a bit more appropiate. JDDJS (talk) 06:05, 17 December 2010 (UTC)"

And so now the discussion continues here. JDDJS (talk) 06:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The comment on Ctjf's page was not a personal attack. He and I are close friends, and I was only expressing my distaste with his voting to redirect the article. Additionally, I'd like to retract my comment about the other editor. Gage (talk) 06:24, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * No vandalism or personal attacks have been made. Request this be closed posthaste as unnecessary and no admin attention is needed. - <small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #AA1809;padding:1px;"> Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 06:29, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * How have no personal attacks have been made? I understand that only one counts now and it's not enough to block him, but the one attack still happened. JDDJS (talk) 06:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll let the Ctjf comment go (unless of course he says he took it as a personal attack), but doesn't it seem a little late now to retract what you said about Jj98 when both here and here  you didn't. If it was up to me you'll be blocked for 24 hrs, but it is not up to me. Most likely you won't get blocked. However be careful what you say and how you say it in the future. If you attack someone again (especially in Articles for deletion/New Kidney in Town (2nd nomination) you probably will be blocked. JDDJS (talk) 06:36, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't threaten people with blocks when you're not an admin.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus + <font color="Green">Contribs 08:07, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see "probably" as a threat...just throwing it out there. <font face="Kristen ITC"><font color="#ff0000">C <font color="#ff6600">T <font color="#ffff00">J <font color="#009900">F <font color="#0000ff">8 <font color="#6600cc">3 chat 13:27, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd like to remain mostly neutral on this, it takes a lot to offend me, so "knowing" Gage, I wasn't bothered by it, although *bites tongue*, he isn't always the most tactful user, but for the record, I strongly detest him saying JJ98 isn't welcome at WP:FG <font face="Kristen ITC"><font color="#ff0000">C <font color="#ff6600">T <font color="#ffff00">J <font color="#009900">F <font color="#0000ff">8 <font color="#6600cc">3 chat 13:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Poor admin conduct of User:Elen of the Roads
From a current WT:CSD discussion, User:Elen of the Roads has been threatening to block me for making racist comments (I did not) and has repeatedly tried to ask me to retract some statement that apparently only he has interpreted as racist. I'd like him to immediately stop threatening me with a block, since it is clear I never made any comment that was even close to racist or meant to be. His behavior is entirely inappropriate. &mdash; Timneu22 · &#32; talk 17:18, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Given your comment that text you claim to be patent nonsense (it's poorly written, but understandable and imo not nonsense) was about a Hindu holy man of some sort and you described the text as a "piece of shit", I think he can be forgiven for interpreting it as racist. It's certainly borderline, imo. Strange Passerby (talk • contribs) 17:22, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As I stated later, the article could have been about any topic, but the words were pure shit. Elen is matching my comment with some holy man and calling me a racist. It's ridiculous, and I don't want to go on under his threat of a block for doing nothing inappropriate. &mdash; Timneu22 · &#32; talk 17:25, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * :I notice the lack of diffs in your report - here, let me provide some. The article itself has been speedied as promotional, but the text is here for the moment, as the author wanted it. It is written in a style used for devotional or praise writing, complete with transliterated Gudjerati.  It is completely unencyclopaedic, but it does not warrant being described as GIBBERISH WITH NO MEANINGFUL CONTENT ... NONSENSE and it's insulting to the community when an admin cannot see this or a huge pile of shit (repeated a couple of times in the course of the discussion, and I notice here now as well).  I have accepted that you don't mean to be racist (so I haven't blocked you) but I have several times now asked you to withdraw the statement, and another editor has also advised you on your talkpage that the statements appear racist. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:33, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * What Elen actually said was Please withdraw your 'pile of shit' comment before I feel compelled to block you for what could quite readily be viewed as racist remarks. For my part I don't see your words as necessarily racist but I do consider them to be both extremely and pointlessly offensive and can see why racism might be suspected. It was plainly merely newbie, unencyclopaedic writing. Fainites barley scribs 17:38, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Elen made the mistake of assuming clue. The text in question is in fact remarkably well written, though thoroughly unencyclopedic in its current form. <i style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;"><b style="color:#656">u</b><b style="color:#555">n</b><b style="color:#455">☯</b><b style="color:#355">m</b><b style="color:#255">i</b></i> 17:43, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Chaos is order unseen. To the unsensing mind there is no sense. <i style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;"><b style="color:#791">u</b><b style="color:#690">n</b><b style="color:#590">☯</b><b style="color:#490">m</b><b style="color:#390">i</b></i> 17:29, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe I said something similar but rather less poetic Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:33, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No admin misconduct here, calling unencyclopedic but GF content a huge pile of shit or "gibberish" is mistaken. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:37, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Elen about 95% here, but note that saying someone is making "racist remarks" is usually a red flag in front of a bull, and they aren't likely to listen to you after you've said it. The comments might be culturally insensitive or culturally disrespectful, but I'd avoid using the term "racism" in almost any circumstance, as it is not likely to achieve whatever you're trying to achieve. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:45, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You're right Floq - it wasn't actually racist, although I did think it was for a few minutes. I did start with culturally insensitive, but the response to that was Cultural ignorance my ass. It's now apparent that it is just plain rudeness, anything Timneu can't parse is a pile of shit.Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:53, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Timneu22, why didn't you contain the one-on-one dispute at User_talk:Jimmy_Pitt? You didn't even tell Jimmy that you were starting a new discussion at WT:CSD. Instead of keeping the argument small and civil, you turned it into a mob-scene. Such a large argument isn't needed for such a trivial incident. WP:SPIDERMAN. This could've been avoided. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 17:50, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Because there is inconsistency in admin behavior of WP:NONSENSE and db-nonsense. The conversation was about CSD policy, so my conversation was in the right place. &mdash; Timneu22 · &#32; talk 18:03, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Were you hoping to change CSD policy by posting there and if so, how so? How does changing policy link up with your claims of admin abuse? Gwen Gale (talk) 18:07, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to have this conversation three places. Go to WT:CSD. This discussion is about admins threatening blocks for no reason. &mdash; Timneu22 · &#32; talk 18:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Timneu22, I think you're forum shopping over having been called on WP:BITE, to put it mildly. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:12, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As someone who spends most of his time doing NPP myself, I'd ask for everyone to just take Timneu22's behavior for what it is- venting. This is a part of CSD that is wildly (mis)interpreted by a lot of people, and really needs some reform.  The fact that he's given you a rude awakening shouldn't change the fact that you seriously need to listen; those of us on NPP have had our chains jerked direction after direction on this issue.  Cut him some slack; blocking him over this would just be too reminiscent of a play I'm all too familiar with. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 18:21, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, Gwen Gale, since no one accused me of WP:BITE, I have no idea what you're talking about. Further, I'm not forum shopping. I went to WT:CSD to discuss the poorly-understood guideline, and I'm here because an admin is threatening to block me about nothing. I'm not sure where you're getting your information. &mdash; Timneu22 · &#32; talk 18:25, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You were wholly mistaken as to the content, you should strike what you said about it. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * @Timneu22: I still find the argument pointless. The article was deleted at 12:40 UTC, yet the argument persisted for hours. Plus, you didn't even reply to Jimmy's response before starting the WT:CSD thread. I feel that you abandoned your discussion with Jimmy prematurely. Your "There seems to be a clear inability for admins to understand patent nonsense" and "It's insulting to the community when an admin cannot see this" comments makes it clear that you were talking about Jimmy's conduct rather than CSD policy. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 18:52, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Only on the subject of this ANI - I don't find that Elen was out of line, maybe a bit bitey but very understandable considering the events. Context is everything and certainly if I were commenting on an article that was religious in tone and another editor replied that the articles subject matter was a piece of shit my first knee jerk reaction would be to go on the defensive.


 * On the wider issue: As someone, as of the moment I post this, is outside of the CSD discussion I can understand both sides - but clearly the comments made by Timneu22 could be taken as being about the articles subject that was/is being discussed and not the wider interpretation that *any* article that is a "piece of shit" be made part of the criteria being discussed. The problem is that the discussion was not presented as specifically about a deletion criteria, but rather the full text of an article was posted under a header that says Inability of admins to recognize patent nonsense and ends with the Timneu22s' comment that it's insulting to the community when an admin cannot see this. That alone already places Admins in a defensive position. And when Timneu22 replied with a direct quote from the article/source and than summarized that quote as nonsense, non-encyclopedic, and a huge pile of shit it really comes off as being the articles subject matter - not about CSD G1. So, again, on the subject of this ANI I see no true "poor conduct" at all by Elen. Soundvisions1 (talk) 18:49, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know; I thought it was obvious that the conversation was about the inconsistent way admins tend to apply G1. The title certainly meets the logical definition of poisoning the well, but there's a lot of frustration involved here.  I can't 100% blame him for his tone, really; if nothing else, it finally drew attention to something that badly needed it. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 18:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Since it has been raised, the criteria for deletion as patent nonsense says the following


 * 1) Total nonsense, i.e., text or random characters that have no assignable meaning at all, such as a passage of lorem ipsum text. This would include strings of characters produced by dropping an object on the keyboard.
 * 2) Content that, while apparently intended to mean something, is so confused that no reasonable person can be expected to make any sense of it. If the meaning cannot be identified, it is impossible to accurately copy-edit the text.

I would just like to point out that neither of those criteria apply to this article, and there is no question of admins failing to understand the criteria, failing to apply the criteria correctly etc etc. Yes, I have a slight advantage in that although I can neither speak nor read it, I recognised the foreign language, so I didn't immediately think that the article title was nonsense. But the text is perfectly readable and plainly about an individual who is very highly regarded by the author for religious reasons. It's not confused at all, it just uses a style which is not used in the West. I note that Timneu has been called on this multiple times - saying something is nonsense when what he means is "this does not belong in the encyclopaedia." Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:11, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * OK. Nobody's getting blocked, the article has been deleted but may be re-created in a more encyclopedic form, and concerns about our definition of "patent nonsense" have been directed to Wikipedia talk:Patent nonsense. So there don't seem to be any active incidents to administrate. The wording of the patent-nonsense CSD is unfortunately operator-dependent - to me, the article was patent nonsense. It was apparently intended to mean something, but was so confused that I didn't see how it could form the basis for an encyclopedia article. If I were to write an article on the subject, I'd feel compelled to scrap that text and start from scratch. On the other hand, Elen clearly saw this as "poorly written content that can be improved", and thus not nonsense. Unfortunately, "nonsense" in this case apparently contained both an implied and an inferred value judgment, which seems to be the reason things went south. It's one thing to say that the article is written incomprehensibly (to the point that it should be scrapped and a new article built from scratch), and another to call it a pile of shit. Similarly, it's one thing to ask someone to tone it down, and another to call them racist. Anyhoo... MastCell Talk 19:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

User:Dylan Flaherty and Sarah Palin

 * WQA
 * recent: Talk:Sarah Palin, (part II), (part III)
 * archived: Talk:Sarah Palin/Archive 42, Talk:Sarah Palin/Archive 43
 * archived: Talk:Sarah Palin/Archive 42, Talk:Sarah Palin/Archive 43

On December 9, an editor questioned on Talk:Sarah Palin why there was no mention in the article of an anonymously-sourced 2008 report that Palin believed Africa to be a country. The material was originally considered in 2008, and most agree the consensus was to not include the material due to sourcing issues. (The material has remained absent from the article since.) The recent inquiry triggered a new round of discussions, and the two ensuing conversations wound up with twelve editors generally opposing inclusion and four editors generally supporting inclusion. I think the reasonable interpretation of the discussion would be a consensus against inclusion, due to the poor sourcing.

One editor, User:Dylan Flaherty, however, has gone around and around, posing generally the same "questions" and using various debate tactics repeatedly — and interpreting the resulting exhaustion from every other editor as a wp:silent-endorsement of his "position." Although he has sought and been advised of several potential dispute resolution options, should he still wish to push for including the text despite consensus, he has thus far not pursued any of those options. Instead, he has just announced that "there is a consensus in support of insertion" of the material, and presumably plans to move forward unilaterally.

The article has long been subject to general sanctions and article probation, precisely due to this type of wp:blp-be-damned, point-of-view warrior-mentality. He has basically indicated on his talk page that he will not recognize any consensus from the editors that he believes "guard" the Sarah Palin article, and I think his intent now is to simply drive any editor that doesn't agree with him away through ad infinitum debate. Given the sheer amount of tabloid scheiße editors at the Palin article(s) must regularly sift through, I think his tactics to drive away any remotely objective editor can be particularly harmful (and are not unique, see User:Scribner and User:Manticore55 in particular).

User:Dylan Flaherty has previously been advised of the general sanctions and article probation in place at Sarah Palin, and I will also notify him of this posting. <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk) 04:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * User notified. I've also let User:KillerChihuahua know about this post, given that she has been one of the primary administrators in handling issues relating the general sanctions imposed on the Sarah Palin article, although her talk page indicates she may be away tending to real life at the moment.  <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  04:36, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Just a slight correction. I was the one who used the term "guard" at Dylan's talk page. And, as I state at the articles talkpage, most recently the discussion had developed to a point where a spot for inclusion, if approved, would be logical. I'm sure more discussion will follow.<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000">Buster Seven  <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000"> Talk  05:02, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I think I'm supposed to respond here, but I'll keep it very short:

The question of whether, where and how to insert the Africa gaffe is not currently settled, as there are multiple editors arguing on either side. Apparently, the trigger for this report is that I offered to put together the proposed text for insertion, which I is something I was actively requested to do. I have not changed the article, and do not plan to do so without a clear consensus, so I'm not sure how this is a violation of anything. Having said that, it has become obvious that the discussion is not going smoothly and we are not moving towards any sort of consensus. For that reason, I believe that this complaint is, to put it mildly, premature and inappropriate. I would instead suggest that we handle this in the right venue: an RfC on the content dispute. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  05:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, Dylan, we absolutely do not need to start an RFC over whether to include anonymous gossip in a BLP. You've already been told to stop beating the horse -- it's turning into glue. Cut it out before you find yourself restricted from the subject. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 05:34, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, it is not the case that I am the lone voice, and it is also not the case that this is about gossip. I can show diffs in which I explain that the notable aspect is the McCain campaign's post-election treatment of Palin, and I can show diffs of people requesting dispute resolution. Quite frankly, the tone of your input here is an example of why we need dispute resolution so much. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  05:51, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You're correct that you're not the "lone voice" that has argued for inclusion over the past two years (although you are in the overwhelming minority). The distinction, though — and the reason I've raised this issue here — is that you're the one editor that is using a nearly daunting amount of wikilawyering and tendentious "debating" to, as best as I can tell, exhaust every other editor to the point at which they surrender and allow the content to be included, notwithstanding wp:blp and actual consensus.  <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  06:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You misunderstood me. I meant that I am not the only person who is currently favoring some movement in the direction of inclusion. It is presently an unsettled controversy among editors.
 * I'm not speaking of what the consensus might have been two years ago, as that doesn't matter one bit. Past consensus is not binding on the present, and that's a good thing because our views change as we learn more. It is only in retrospect that it becomes clear how the Africa gaffe incident marked Palin's split from the GOP. Only now do we have the hindsight to see why it was important and where it fits into her story. Two years ago, I would have agreed with omitting this incident, but now we know better.
 * We do not have a consensus today, and we need to get one. However, trying to get me topic-banned is not a productive step in achieving consensus. Moreover, your claims about my behavior, in addition to being less than accurate, open the door to an analysis of your own behavior, and I don't think you would benefit from that. You have been highly aggressive in trying to derail and shut down this discussion. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  06:36, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Nobody's perfect. It would be far more useful to find out what Palin has to say nowadays about Africa, if anything. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The point I've been trying to make is that it was never really about her knowledge of geography, but rather the politics of the leak. I somehow suspect that, if she were quizzed today, she'd do just fine. :-) <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  06:50, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Please note: The link above to the WQA is misleading, the report was opened by Dylan about another editor for less-than civil commments. - PrBeacon (talk) 06:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

User:Dylan Flaherty is certainly not the only editor who sees things the way he does. I involved myself actively in that thread for a few days, but withdrew after finding it virtually impossible to have a meaningful conversation with any who opposed my perspective. Points and compromise suggestions I politely made were responded to with totally tangential or irrelevant comments, at times quite abusive. As a non-American it was an interesting and educational insight into American politics. I saw people who would aggressively and irrationality defend their favoured politician's purity and brilliance, with no interest in sensible discussion. Seeing no evidence that such editors would ever accept anything I said, I judiciously withdrew, but kept an interested eye on the article. It's important to note that the absence of active editors from a discussion does not mean an absence of interest. HiLo48 (talk) 07:05, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your input, HiLo48. I had wondered where you had gone off to, but correctly concluded that you had been driven off by the harshness of certain responses. I'm sorry you were compelled to withdraw and I certainly don't hold that against you in any way. I can only express my hope that you might be willing to participate in a more structured discussion, such as the RfC. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  07:20, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You are welcome. That discussion was a very very frustrating experience. I admire your patience (even if driven by boredom.) HiLo48 (talk) 07:31, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec) Oy vey. You have a clear point of view regarding Sarah Palin.  It's evident in your absolute unwillingness to listen to anyone — other editors, administrators, uninvolved parties — who take the time to calmly, rationally explain to you that anonymously-sourced gossip is absolutely unacceptable for a wp:blp, no matter what level of unsourced synthesis you might be able to conjure up.  You can't debate your way around or through such an obvious wp:blp violation.  And while I admire your pugnacity and delicious sense of irony, your efforts are damaging to biographies, drive neutral editors away from controversial articles, and ultimately hurt Wikipedia. <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  07:40, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That out-of-context link does not accurately reflect my view of Palin. Regardless, I believe we are all entitled to holding our own opinions as well as to making suggestions regarding article content. It would be very easy to find pro-Palin quotes from you, particularly if I wasn't picky about context and accuracy, but I would never deny you the opportunity to collaborate simply because we are not already in full agreement.
 * I think we've also established that it's not a WP:BLP violation, so please do us the courtesy of not bringing up arguments that have been shown to be false. Thank you. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  07:43, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Eh? Where a consensus found the claim not be to includable in a BLP, and the BLP rules have significantly tightened since then, it is odd that you, as a single editor lacking clear consensus, can rule that it does not violate BLP.  Amazingly enough, BLPs do not contain every single snipped about the person - the material must be of some significance to the person, and must, if challenged, have a strong reliable source which is not questioned.  Meanwhile, becoming a denizen of the noticeboards as a topic is not wise, and a large cup of tea is prescribed.   Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:14, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what to say to this, as it is riddled with factual errors. This is not constructive. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  11:21, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I won't even bother addressing your attempts to imply, falsely, that I'm anything but neutral when it comes to this subject, but I once again admire your irony. But I do wonder exactly how many other editors and administrators have to try to convince you it is a wp:blp issue before you will actually acknowledge that fact?  (I also find this comment from a few minutes ago to be not at all subtle.  I suspect you didn't intend for it to be, though.)  <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  08:01, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You have twice now attempted to imply that I am not neutral. The point is that editors are not expected to be neutral, articles are. Simply having an opinion does not disqualify either of us. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  08:02, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * When editors clearly can't separate their personal opinions from their editing of a controversial article for a biography of a living person, there are serious ramifications for this project. If you cannot edit the article neutrally and objectively, that certainly ought to disqualify you.  <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  08:11, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You have offered nothing to support your claim that my suggestions for editing are anything but NPOV. It helps if you prove your claim instead of assuming it. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  09:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Alright you two that's enough. Disengage. Dylan, if you want to add a sentence into the article about Palin thinking Africa is a country, find a reliable source for it, and state why you think adding such a sentence would improve the article. Make your case on the talk page, and see what happens. If consensus is that the sentence should not be included, respect that. If you have already done this and the consensus is that the sentence should not be included, stop beating the dead horse. <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;"> N419 BH  08:07, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You are correct that reliable sourcing is absolutely essential. It turns out that we have no trouble finding reliable sources for both the original report and the analysis of its significance. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  08:57, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I noticed this at WP:WQA where Dylan Flaherty reported what they thought was a uncivil comment, namely this edit. I had a look at the issue and noticed the repetitive attempts at Talk:Sarah Palin to record an alleged blunder by Palin re knowledge of Africa. Given that the article is under probation, and given the extremely low quality of the arguments in favor of introducing the Africa material, I recommend that an admin let people know that consensus has spoken, and the issue should not be revisited unless a new reliable source appears (and it would be even better if WP:DUE could be explained, i.e. you need more than one report before suggesting that Palin does not know the status of Africa). Johnuniq (talk) 08:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, but calling me a liar is indeed uncivil. Moreover, the issue is not the alleged blunder, but the actual report. This is a delicate issue, so I feel that it is vital to do the necessary research to get the facts straight, prior to offering suggestions. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  08:57, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As others have pointed out, no one "called (DF) a liar" and iterating that claim here is bound to get the WQA revisited to your possible detriment. You appeared to take umbrage at one of the mildest reproofs imaginable on WP, and then iterate how "uncivil" the other editor is.  One more cup of tea is called for. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:18, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Once again, you make claims that are false. The term tossed at me refers specifically to intentionally misleading, which is to say, lying. Note that, in contrast, while I am stating that your claims are false, I am not claiming intent, so I am not calling you a liar. I hope that clarifies the difference. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  11:22, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

N419BH - Many suggestions have been made on the Talk page. My reason for leaving it was that consensus is clearly impossible. I tried to present a different perspective and was howled down by those who cannot conceive of an alternative to their view that the content MUST NOT BE THERE. (Some of the comments to me were quite rude.) I am not American. This gives me both an independence from American party politics, and another perspective. I was not just ignored. I was attacked. Forget about consensus. It cannot happen. HiLo48 (talk) 08:15, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * HiLo, I am quite sympathetic, but I must tell you that I felt much the same about Tea Party movement, but a long mediation forced both sides to the table and yielded a mutually acceptable compromise. On this basis, I believe an RfC has some potential here. Perhaps I'm an optimist, but I'd like to give it a try. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  09:02, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Has anyone suggested confining it to the 2008 election page? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:48, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Bugs, the suggested location is the end of the election section. Its significance is not for the election, but for the transition. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  08:57, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The alleged statement is presumed to have possibly affected people's voting choice, yes? And if not, why does it matter anyway? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:12, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That was my initial thought, too, but I was mistaken. The gaffe itself was supposed to have occurred during the campaign, but Cameron was not allowed to mention it until afterwards, as it was given to him "off the record". Instead, it came out just as McCain conceded, as part of an effort by his people to lay blame at Palin's feet. This, according to reliable sources, had the effect of distancing Palin from the GOP mainstream and eventually leading to her role in the Tea Party movement. As I said, the significance is in the transition. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  09:16, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Ugh, just read the proposed content. The usual badly sourced BLP mud slinging content. I suggest as a resolution an admin leaves Dylan a strong but polite note to drop the stick and back away slowly, there is no way the content (at this stage anyway) is able to pass BLP concerns. Sourcing is pants (mostly news from the time as far as I can make out with nothing but trivial coverage). Significance is not established (no indication of the relevance or significance). etc. --Errant $(chat!)$ 09:05, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I did read your comment, but I'm sorry to say that you made some serious factual errors that undermine your conclusion. A key one is that you denied that anyone provided RS's for the "thrown under the bus" analysis. If you go back and read it more carefully, you'll see that there are two you missed. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  09:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I read all the sources in those three parts, perhaps I missed it. Care to post them both again? Stick them on my talk page. --Errant $(chat!)$ 09:11, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Will do. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  09:16, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

As a point of order, I requested that jaes not post further to my talk page. They have violated this request. I am requesting that an administrator take care of this. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  09:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I suggest that Dylan find a way to stop making increasingly regular appearances as the subject (or reporter-turned-subject) of so many threads that concern disruptive editing. Dylan isn't even four months old here, yet it's becoming "old hat" already seeing him surrounded by controversy.  It isn't looking like a "rosy" future at this rate.  Jus' sayin'... <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  09:05, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You have said nothing about the subject of this report. Instead, you are bringing up your general opinion of me my editing "style", which is not relevant. On the whole, I do not find your comment helpful. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  09:09, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I wish you would find it helpful. I have no negative opinion of you as an editor (or a person) whatsoever: your editing "style" is the issue.  You must have noticed a few "objections" to it by now... <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  09:19, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * To be clear, the reason I don't find it helpful is that it does nothing to resolve the issue that this report is about. At best, it is harmless commentary. At worst, it is mudslinging. In neither case, nor any in between, is it productive. While I will assume good faith here, I cannot conclude that it is helpful. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  09:22, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Since you clarified your intention, I redacted my original comment. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  09:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I appreciate that :> After being here almost 3 years and never been the subject of even one AN/I/WQA/AN/3RR/etc., maybe my advice truly isn't helpful.  I can't keep you out of them... so go with your instincts!  Cheers :> <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  09:34, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not denying that your advice may be helpful in a general context. However, my feeling is that offering it here in the place of an analysis of the situation that was reported is not helpful. I hope I have made this distinction sufficiently clear. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  09:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, I have to again contribute my comments from the thread, since everyone else is just repeating their stubborn opinions. I'm in Australia. The "Fact" that Palin does not know Africa is a continent was widely publicised here. No refutation of that "Fact" has arrived here. I acknowledge that some editors believe it should be refuted and have some evidence for that claim. This is a global encyclopaedia. (Hence my spelling of that word.) To have an article about Palin and not mention that rather sensational "Fact" would make it look like the article has been censored. Hence I proposed mentioning both sides of the story. This proposal has nothing to do with US politics, apart from making the description look complete. Believe it or not, the rest of the world does pay attention to US politics. Let's tell the full story. HiLo48 (talk) 09:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You're an American. "Methinks he doth protest too much". <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  09:39, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Doc, that's a silly response. Do assume good faith. If you want, I'l scan my Australian birth certificate and post it here. You have to start trusting us foreigners! HiLo48 (talk) 09:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm an Aussie and I support HiLo48's post. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 09:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * What it boils down to is that Dylan just wouldn't take No for an answer. And the basic reason for that was that editors failed to grasp the subtle difference of Dylans request from what they were percieving. And now he is being charged with wasting editing time and harming WP. But lets look at where this took place. Talk:Sara Palin. There are 62 Archives at Talk:Sara Palin; 61.5 since Aug 29, 2008. Almost 62 archives in 28 months. I challenge someone to find another WP article talk page with as many in such a short time. My point is that conversation/discussion at Talk:Sara Palin is looooong-winded. It takes time and effort to shake out the wheat from the chaff. Its a part of the "scene" there. This African gaffe stuff is nothing compared to the Bridges to Nowhere discussions. Editor:Dylan may have stepped in some dog-droppings here and there, and upset an editor or two, but I hope administrators can consider the nature of the Sara Palin article and the development of an obviously talented editor. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000">Buster Seven  <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000"> Talk  10:14, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. I think I'm beginning to notice something here. The actual story of Palin's Africa gaffe would, if it were true, make her look ignorant. It get the impression that some people get this far into the issue and then stop. They immediately react to a perceived attack and they never go any deeper, so they miss the point.

Yet, if they kept reading, they would understand that the significance is not that the story makes her look bad, but that the story is intended to; that it was told by the McCain aide to Cameron precisely because they wanted her to look bad. In this context, Palin comes across as a sympathetic figure, scapegoated by the establishment so that McCain doesn't have to take the full blame for losing the election.

Wikipedia is not here to praise or damn Palin, but to report on the facts. If we report that the gaffe was claimed and then explain what it means about her relationship with the GOP mainstream, we are just doing our jobs. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  09:56, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I looked at the sources you suggested and did a bit of digging; I agree, there is content here. On the other hand the "Africa gaffe" is a minor part of that, worth probably less than a sentence as part of the overall story. (but this is not the place for such a discussion really - we should figure out if admin action is needed, and if not then move on) --Errant $(chat!)$ 09:59, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I haven't yet posted my proposed paragraph, but I assure you that the Africa gaffe does not get more than a sentence, and is presented only in context, without being declared true. I believe the best action at this point is to allow the RfC to proceed and to watch it carefully. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  10:12, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem is that what Dylan is proposing (on this page) is synthesis--taking a relatively minor incident (which is rather sketchily sourced, as all of the media reports refer to a single reporter's claims about the statements of anonymous staffers), and extrapolating that into a discussion of Palin's relationship with the Republican Party establishment. Unless there is a reliable source which explicitly links the two issues, we can't say that, because it's original research.  Horologium  (talk) 10:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Horologium, I would appreciate it if you would do me the courtesy of visiting User_talk:ErrantX and reading the two sources I posted there. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  10:16, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Horologium and Errant - did you actually read my posts? Nothing you have posted indicates that you are paying any attention to what I have posted at all. This has been my frustration all along. Those who don't want the content repeatedly post stuff that simply does not take into account what others have said. It's really bad manners, and guaranteed to occasionally lead to less than ideal interactions. Why behave in such a confrontational way? Dylan is being attacked here for alleged unacceptable behaviour, but bad behaviour is all over the place on this topic. Please try a little harder, all of you. HiLo48 (talk) 10:22, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have read what you have written, and simply dismissed it out of hand. You aren't paying attention to what others have been saying, and you mistake media assertions for facts. The only person who has claimed that Sarah Palin doesn't know that Africa is a continent is an anonymous McCain campaign staffer, whereas multiple McCain staffers have stated, on the record, that the claims are false.  Horologium  (talk) 10:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You have totally missed my point. My opinion of what Palin said is irrelevant. When I said "Fact", it was to highlight that without any further information, everyone, all over the world, who has only heard the claims that she did say it will believe it to be true. And will wonder why WIkipedia is hiding the story that they have all heard. That you're happy to have the world know only one side of this story, the side that makes Palin look silly, stuns me. Because the world does know that side of the story, and not the refutations. HiLo48 (talk) 10:57, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You must have dismissed it out of hand, since you didn't take the time to understand that the very fact the claim was made is the point. We don't really know whether it was true, although it's entirely plausible that it was a misstatement or misunderstanding on her part rather than a reflection of actual ignorance about Africa. But, as you admit, you just dismissed it out hand. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  10:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * (after many E/C)Yes, both of these sources explicitly state that their source was Carl Cameron, and neither have much to do with what you claim to be trying to achieve here (since they date from less than a week after the campaign ended in 2008). I have addressed this on the article talk page, but you haven't bothered to reply to my concerns.  Horologium  (talk) 10:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, I fail to see how you could have viewed a 6.5 minute video in less than 4 minutes. I have to suspect that you did not watch it. This is strengthened by the fact that you made some basic factual errors just now. In particular, the video very clearly states that McCain leaked negative information about her for two days, which is exactly the point. Please understand that this is not a vote, and that the weight of your comments cannot exceed the merit they earn by virtue of reflecting serious scholarship. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  10:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't have to watch it this time; I watched it after you brandished it on the article talk page earlier. If you were actually coming up with new stuff, it would be a different story, but you're recycling the same links.  Horologium  (talk) 10:39, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, I agree that you only have to watch it once. However, that one time, you do need to watch it all the way through and pay close attention. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  10:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Dylan Flaherty may be right about this. Google Books search finds lots of mentions of the incident, including some by respectably uninvolved authors, plus Palin herself apparently discusses it on page 87 of her autobiography "Going Rogue".  Palin is a major public figure (she may even be the next US president) and as such, we should take a firmer stance about her biography's neutrality than we would about biographies of semi-private people whose biographies tend (for good reason) to get tilted in their favor.  Assuming the allegation is false, the reliably sourced info about who spread it and why they did it sounds potentially relevant to her biography.  We have a whole article about the birther movement for about the same reason. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 10:20, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

yeah... youtube and the Huffington post are REALLY reliable sources(!) Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 10:21, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Do me a favor: remove your face from your palm and actually look at the video before declaring it unreliable. Thank you. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  10:22, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If you knew ANYTHING about our policies you would know youtube is NEVER even REMOTELY considered a reliable source. PERIOD! Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 10:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Good to know. Now, tell me, have you ever heard of this minor cable channel called MSNBC? If so, do you think it's somewhat reliable? <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  10:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Copyright infringement. That's one reason why YouTube is an unreliable source.  Arf arf... <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  10:29, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I will note for the record that you did not answer the question. I think you're done now. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  10:31, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Doc ignoring what others post, eh?. Trademark behaviour it seems. HiLo48 (talk) 10:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Barts1a; just for edification :) Youtube can definitely be a reliable source. The issue with it is twofold is that a) it is often self published material (which either is not reliable, or must be used with care) or a) the content is not adequately licensed, and you are right, we do never link to copyright infringing material. --Errant $(chat!)$ 10:37, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm seeing more authorized uploads which seem reliable; and more aggressive protection of copyrighted info. However, youtube is still primarily for entertainment. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:55, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the link is just presented here for your convenience. The actual RS is the cable broadcast itself. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  10:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Where would one access a cable broadcast other than on youtube? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:55, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, but the answer is "your local cable provider".
 * Accessibility is distinct from reliability. We have articles that reference books that cannot be found online. In this case, someone who would prefer not to use YouTube would need to contact MSNBC and request video of the broadcasts for that time period. Of course, some people would use YouTube for verification, even though we wouldn't necessarily want to link to it. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  11:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Shazam! My local cable provider is piping 2-year-old MSNBC shows to my TV on request? I did not know that! ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Dylan, for something like that you need print sources by not-too-partisan writers. Page 6 of "On rumors: how falsehoods spread, why we believe them, what can be done" by Cass R. Sunstein might be an ok source (shows up in Google book search but there's no preview of that page).  Snippet: "In 2008, many Americans were prepared to believe that Governor Sarah Palin thought that Africa was a country rather than a continent, because that ridiculous confusion fit with what they already thought about Governor Palin. ..." 67.117.130.143 (talk) 10:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree, but do you know what would be even better than non-partisan writers? A report from a partisan journalist who would be expected to be hostile towards Palin but is instead sympathetic!
 * I don't know of any TV journalists more partisan against the GOP than Keith Olbermann. Now check out the video and see it for yourself. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  10:38, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * (after multiple EC) We don't even need to discuss copyright infringement, we need to note that Olbermann is on the same level as right-wing crazies like Glenn Beck, and I seriously doubt that any of the people pushing the Olbermann clip would similarly support clips of Glenn Beck on the Barack Obama article.  Horologium  (talk) 10:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for making my point for me. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  10:38, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This is quite subtle. <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  10:43, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * What's unsubtle is your attempt to repeatedly introduce material that is irrelevant. In fact, I redacted that comment immediately, so quoting it at all is an act of bad faith. Shame on you. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  10:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You "redacted" your personal attack with the edit summary of "true, but out of place." Seriously?  It's remarkable to me that, when it comes to your inappropriate behaviour, everything is irrelevant or out of context, or the mere mention of it is "intimidation."  Shame on me, indeed!  <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  10:57, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * What I redacted was not, in fact, a personal attack at all. Note how no persons were mentioned. However, even if it had been a personal attack and I removed it without prompting, it would be inappropriate to post it here without that context. I'm not sure why you posted the other links, as they only make you look bad. They show, for example, how you were ordered not to post on my talk page but you did it anyway. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  11:05, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Dylan Flaherty, Please note this... Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 10:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I certainly didn't hear you say whether MSNBC was a reliable source, and I didn't hear you reply to ErrantX's correction about YouTube. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  10:55, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That certainly looks like a refusal to get the point to me. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 11:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Just for the record... Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 11:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming this ANI thread is an exception until it's completed. Or is it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:07, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know, but I would have dropped the stick by now... Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 11:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not a stick, so no. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  11:17, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thus you're sticking to your story. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:20, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Ouch. :-) <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  11:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Topic ban
I believe that the topic ban laid down by User:Gwen Gale is unreasonable and unjustified, so I am requesting that she lift it. If she won't then I'm requesting that someone else override her. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  11:17, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

To be specific, I consider my edits on the talk page to be persistent but productive and in good faith, hence not disruptive. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  11:19, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Your comments as a result of it above are. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 11:20, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I was not banned for my comments, and actually, they're not. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  11:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * You're overinvolved and staying away for 2 weeks sounds like a good idea. There is more sourcing for the Africa thing now than there used to be, so other editors can find and use it if they determine that it's worth reversing an earlier decision to not include the material.  Just find something non-Palin-related to edit for a while.  Variety is healthy.67.117.130.143 (talk) 11:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * This behavior of Dylan Flaherty's is completely in line with my experiences with him on other pages. His behavior reported here brings contention wherever I have seen him edit.  In expectation of his usual personal attacks for my having said this, let me add that numerous editors have the same experiences as I do.  It is good to see that some people are not dismissive of his behavior.  I am certain disciplinary action taken here is well deserved. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 11:28, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Note: The topic ban is fully and 100% in effect. Any additional discussion here, or anywhere related to Sarah Palin will result in an escalating series of blocks. This topic ban is in effect for a period of 2 weeks. Additional similar transgressions will lead to longer topic bans. Final answer. ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 11:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If so, then it's probably time to box this up. Oh, and also to block the rabble-rousing IP, farther down, who's trying to encourage socking. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Unreasonable block topic ban
While in the middle of discussing an issue, I was put on a topic ban that prevents me from defending myself. I find this highly unreasonable and request that the ban be removed, at least for the context of this page. (I apologize if this seems unclear, but I am not allowed to speak of the topic of the ban.) <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  11:09, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have been informed now that I am not banned from Sarah Palin-related topics on this page, so I will continue this matter in the previous section. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  11:15, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I am sorry for you but the editors here thought they are gods that no one can put them down.. they dont respect anyone and even their co- editors have errors they try to help him/her by masking the errors... this is what they are.. they are as corrupt as as their souls and minds are... if you entertain them further you'll get stressed and you'll be unhealthy at the end.... the best way is to trail them and give them the correct punishment that is outside of wikipedias rules... the best idea then..  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.22.185.182 (talk) 11:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Naturally, you're from Chicago, a city known for its impeccable integrity. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:AN/I is not the place for you to be a snarky bigot to IPs with impunity. Keep it to yourself. Jtrainor (talk) 16:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Now, wait... Are you saying Chicago is not known for its impeccable integrity? Them's fightin' words, son - Chicago is my favorite city. It sounds like you've got your own bigotry issues that you need to address before lecturing others. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:44, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Ok, apparently BWilkens says I can't speak of the forbidden subject of horror anywhere, so I won't. Instead, I will request that the ban be lifted. If I get blocked for requesting the removal of a ban, then we'll have reached new levels of perversity. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  11:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * "What is your fascination with my forbidden closet of mystery?" Oh well: good luck :> <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  11:39, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If you don't know the difference between a WP:BLOCK and WP:RESTRICT by now there may be little hope for you ... ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 11:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the correction, but please note this extract from WP:BAN:
 * Wikipedia's hope for banned editors is that they will leave Wikipedia or the affected area with their pride and dignity intact, whether permanently or for the duration of their ban. As such, it is inappropriate to bait banned editors, or to take advantage of their ban to mock them.
 * In other words, don't kick a man when he's down, especially when you tripped him in the first place.
 * To clarify, I believe that preventing me from defending myself is unreasonable, that the topic ban itself is unreasonable, and that any sort of block or ban or restriction is entirely inappropriate. This is a content dispute that multiple editors have requested an RfC for. By topic-banning, you are disrupting this process, among other things.
 * For these reasons, and all the ones listed above, I am requesting that the topic ban be removed and the discussion be unlocked so that it may continue. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  11:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, you're mixing up a WP:BAN and a topic ban. Don't.  This is not a ban.  You have been given permission to improve your editing and understanding of policies by discussing it directly with User:Gwen Gale - take advantage of that.  ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 11:59, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I have been asked to first discuss this with the original banner. So long as that discussion is ongoing, please consider the unban request here to be on hold. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  12:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The ANI discussion is concluded, so no further defense from you is necessary. At Talk:Sarah Palin, there is a clear consensus that the information you are interested in will not be added.  Here at ANI, there is an equally clear consensus that it is time for you to accept that consensus, and find other ways to improve the encyclopedia.   Part of participating in disagreements at Wikipedia is recognizing when you have lost, which means not having to have large number of administrators inform you that the argument is over and you did not win it. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 12:03, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As it turns out, you are mistaken about the consensus. There is, in fact, no consensus right now, and the process of arriving at one has been substantially delayed by these mistaken administrator actions. Part of participating in Wikipedia is understanding that terminating a discussion prematurely to declare a winner is poor sportsmanship. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  12:11, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment from the peanut gallery: Closing an ANI discussion after less than 8 hours seems odd, to say the least. And the fact that it so quickly resulted in a topic ban is even more dumbfounding. - PrBeacon (talk) 12:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * PrBeacon, if you wish to follow the conversation on the talk page of the administrator who did this, you'll note that the basic argument is that I need to shut up and accept consensus. My problem with this is that, as the number of dissenting voices clearly showed, there is no clear consensus at this time. Rather than supporting the natural formation and enforcement of consensus, the ban silenced the debate and propped up a failing consensus.
 * That's why I've asked for an unban so that I can launch the RfC that people have been agitating for in the last week. I will continue to try to get through to her until tomorrow evening, at which point I will be forced to give up and return to this page. It's easier for the ban to be lifted by her than anyone else, but we don't have to do things the easy way, given the questionable nature of this ban. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  15:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Ok, let's try this from the top. As the discussions have stalled, I am once again asking for this topic ban to be removed. It serves no positive purpose and only delays the RfC that we need to gain a consensus. Once the ban is removed, I will immediately file an RfC. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  18:15, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose removal of topic ban. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:18, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That's great, but why? Do you have a reason? <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  18:22, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose - could be longer for me. Off2riorob (talk) 18:20, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you volunteering to be topic-banned? I don't understand. I also don't see any stated reason. This is not a vote. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  18:22, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose removal of topic ban. Sarah Palin is not an obscure subject, and this user has already stated his case.  He seems now to be arguing that the topic ban must be lifted because others cannot reach the right consensus without his participation, which I do not think is the case.  -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 18:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: Thank you for offering a reason. I think if you look at the banner's talk page, you'll find that they admit there is currently no consensus. If an RfC proceeds without me and arrives at the conclusion that we should exclude the Africa incident, this will be a glass consensus that shatters as soon as I am ungagged. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  18:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * One person does not make or break a consensus. No editor is so indispensable that an inability to participate in a discussion, precipitated by his own actions, renders said discussion invalid.  Horologium  (talk) 18:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose removal of topic ban. I think taking two weeks to calm down, organize your thoughts, and carefully prepare an RFC on the subject before getting back into public discussion is well recommended.  There's no hurry to add the disputed text. <B>—Torchiest</B> talk/edits 18:37, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose removal of topic ban, largely for the reasons outlined by FisherQueen.  Horologium  (talk) 18:38, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * x3 Oppose removal of topic ban. Banned user shows evidence that he is willing to use tactics which aren't conducive towards collaborative work, including a refusal to "get the point", a willingness to repeatedly use the same arguements and tactics ad nauseum, even in the face of significant opposition, and a willingess that by sheer volume and repetition, he will somehow make his points the consensus view rather than his own personal view. I don't see where the Sarah Palin universe of articles has benefit from this persons behavior; indeed if he does have any valid points they will likely eventually be incorporated by others, he provides nothing uniquely valuable to the articles except his own disruption therof. (post Edit conflict addendum) The belief that your participation in the RFC would somehow cause such a landmark shift in consensus is the exact reason why the topic ban is needed here.  Your opinion is exactly as valuable as anyone elses; and your opinions on the matter are already public record, and have not generated much support.  The fact that an RFC has started is unlikely to magicly change consensus on this issue merely because you get to make the same tired arguements there again. -- Jayron  32  18:40, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose If an RfC is truly required, it will most certainly not hinge on any one single editor to get started. As there is a serious and ongoing case of WP:IDHT, the topic ban is amply justified. MLauba (Talk) 18:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Strongly Oppose removal of topic ban. If a user fails to drop the stick and continues to ignore people who point out he is wrong then this is a needed step. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 22:31, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * As I articulated at Sockpuppet investigations/Benjiboi, I think there's a reasonable chance this user is a sockpuppet of Benjiboi, although the ongoing behavior here makes me question my initial suspicions. A checkuser might be appropriate if there is ongoing disruption sufficient to enact a topic ban from a contentious area. Jclemens (talk) 19:17, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Could we have a CU on this? I have not a clue as to what the outcome would be. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:21, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Hm. Thanks for pointing that out Jclemens.  This Dylan Flaherty user account does have a precocious knowledge of Wikipedia, as evidenced by its very first actions; this person did not start editing Wikipedia on the first day the account was created, so there is some past history which is being deliberately hidden.  No idea what that means, but it is suspicious.  -- Jayron  32  19:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have to admit, the overlap is interesting, but Dylan Flaherty's editing style is substantially less collegial than that of Benjiboi. I have interacted with Benjiboi on other contentious topics (particularly Matt Sanchez); he was not so quick to stonewall and wikilawyer. Plus, he's been around long enough to know that an RFC is going to draw lots of attention; if he were planning to continue to edit, he'd lie low and not call for an RFC. I don't buy it, although the account creation date, the knowledge of certain arcane policies, and the editing overlap is startling. (The fact that he still doesn't seem to have a grasp of posting diffs offsets some of that.) Horologium  (talk) 19:31, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Guess I must say, this was Dylan's third edit. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * ! I think he can safely say that he's SOMEBODY's sock. JClemens says Benjiboi; my first guess would be User:Scribner, who has a history of disruption on this article and a similar focus on politically-fraught topics.  Horologium  (talk) 19:36, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting theory. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 20:05, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem is, that we have 3-4 disruptive editors who are known to edit from the same political point-of-view as this, and also have a pattern of refusing to back down when faced with overwhelming consensus against their edits, among them Grundle2600 and ChildofMidnight. Now, this obviously isn't Grundle, totally not his style.  He doesn't even try to hide.  It could possibly be CoM; CoM does hide, but this guy doesn't seem as abusive towards others as CoM usually is.  Scribner is an interesting connection... What we do know is this is somebody who is not as new as his account indicates.  -- Jayron  32  21:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC) Nevermind, this guy has the opposite political viewpoint.  Darn it, I have such a hard time keeping track of the difference between American political rhetoric.  And I am an American... Urgh.  -- Jayron  32  21:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Is clear evidence of socking enough to get a checkuser involved without knowledge of the sockmaster's identity? <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;"> N419 BH  21:31, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * (EC)Will the claim that Dylan is or is not a sock be verified and the results presented here or is there another forum for that? Unverified charges stated by administrators have an increased sticking power. I'm not sure what to make of these sockpuppet claims. I would rather know than suspect. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000">Buster Seven  <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000"> Talk  21:37, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * JClemens has posted a link to the SPI for Benjiboi, in which he addresses some of the possible links between Dylan and Benjiboi. I'm not sure who is doing all of the C/U stuff, but if they are reading everything, rather than just the list, they'll notice what JClemens has posted and run the check.  Horologium  (talk) 21:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * A CU has not been run on JClemens request at the SPI. Given the size of that SPI request, and the number of discussions going on there, it may have been missed. -- Jayron  32  22:02, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec)I suggested a cup of tea for him. DF, however, seems to respond with such by an increased argumentativeness. Here is a user who appeared as Minerva, spinging forth from the head of Zeus. Until we find out who Zeus is :) my usual opposition to draconian measures is vastly reduced., , , and (a personal favourite) posted in response to a suggestion that a cuppa would help. Collect (talk) 22:05, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * So, Jayron. That means no report is forthcoming? As the example above shows, some editors will begin to assume and state that the claims of sockpuppetry are factual...without any evidence.<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000">Buster Seven  <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000"> Talk  22:14, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I made so claims other than his argumentativeness. Which is reasonably clear. Collect (talk) 22:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Really!?! <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  22:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * In case you didn't notice the conversation has shifted to whether or not Dylan is a sockpuppet. We all can see that he may argue a bit too much! <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000">Buster Seven  <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000"> Talk  22:39, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

(←) For what it's worth, Dylan responded elsewhere that his account is not a sock. I also recall him mentioning recently that he is not editing under a pseudonym, and that he had some concerns about his on-Wikipedia activities becoming associated with his real life identity (at which point I suggested he exercise his right to vanish and select a pen name). I don't know what to make of all of the information above, especially the peculiar nature of his earlier edits, but I suspect it may just be simpler for us to wait for the checkuser conclusion rather than speculate. <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk) 22:50, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose removal of topic ban, and recommend an extension beyond the original 2 weeks. The massive "I don't get it"-ism has simply wasted more time than anything.  Sometimes WP:COMPETENCE raises its ugly head.  At the end of 2 weeks, he still will not understand WP:CONSENSUS ... or indeed, any of the WP:5P.  His chat with User:Gwen Gale was supposed to help enlighten him - he simply refuses to take any advice like an adult would/should. ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 00:53, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree. I have made the same observation regarding the User:Gwen Gale chat.  Truly striking.  It is amazing how User:Gwen Gale continues to respond as well as she does.  I hope to learn from User:Gwen Gale. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 01:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * LAEC, please stop piling on. You already had your say earlier, although that too should be qualified. You have your own share of contentious editing, and not just in discussions with Dylan or me. - PrBeacon (talk) 03:52, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You followed LAEC to Southern Poverty Law Center, and Dylan followed shortly afterwards: both you and Dylan have an astonishing talk-to-article edit ratio there, with way more arguing than editing the article. Neither of you much like LAEC either.  If I had to pick one editor as a possible Dylan master, it would be .  The wikistalk is impressive (interest in giving talk page advice but no article edits at Koch Industries for PrBeacon stands out to me as a minor "oddity", especially when one considers that Dylan started editing both the article and talk page after that), and I'm not seeing much in the way of edit overlap (I could be wrong).  If a CU is run, I'd put my money here. <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  06:04, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Then you'd lose. I didn't follow LAEC anywhere and your various accusations are ridiculous. Is this your way of trying to weaken an ideological opponent (DF) and anyone who dares to offer a modicum of support? Or perhaps the timing of your comment here is more than coincidental to another editor's disruptive exchange  elsewhere . - PrBeacon (talk) 06:33, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Now your obsession with me bleeds over into things I'm not even involved in? Keep me out of your drama Beacon.Niteshift36 (talk) 06:45, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Heh, get over yourself. This is not my drama and anyway you could've stayed out by not responding here. - PrBeacon (talk) 07:06, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You dragged my edit into this. I have nothing to do with this affair. Yes, I could choose to ignore your bringing my name into something I'm not involved in, but I'd like to hear you explain why I need to be brought up? I made no edits in the sections being discussed. I haven't had any significant interactions with the others involved. So why on earth would you couple what Doc9871 said with me? Please, show me how I became part of your conspiracy theory. Niteshift36 (talk) 07:17, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Can someone verify that a CU is in fact being run? I see alot of conjecture..."if a CU and when a CU and should a CU"...but I don't see any hard evidence that a CU is taking place. I see [this] but Im not sure what that has to do with Dylan. Thanks <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000">Buster Seven  <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000"> Talk  06:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

What a lot of bullying! Dylan may be persistent, annoyingly so to some, but he's far more polite than some of those opposing him and dragging up all sorts of possibilities as to who he might really be, rather than actually discussing the issues. And there is obviously not a consensus. Majorities don't define consensus. One of my favourite lines to those who like squashing dissidents with majority views is the very truthful "Many times in my life I have been in a minority, and right." And a consensus must arise from extensive, constructive discussion. Until I see my proposal properly discussed it hasn't been a full discussion. HiLo48 (talk) 07:01, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * A polite disruptor is still a disruptor. (Of course, if he is a returned user, one of their habits is often to be overly polite ...) ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 10:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * But by the same token, consensus is not unanimous agreement. Generally speaking, when a group of editors mostly are in agreement any vocal minority is irrelevant. Someone will always disagree; if they can't sway the bulk of editors to their argument then consensus is against them :) Simply being persistent doesn't undermine consensus, it just pisses people off. Hence all this. --Errant $(chat!)$ 10:11, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * And again, your approach has been to simply insist that there is consensus, rather than actually paying attention, noting that I'm concerned about no discussion of my proposal, and hence discussing it. What's that? You don't know what my proposal is, and why I proposed it? Hmmm. Maybe you haven't paid attention, which brings me back to.... HiLo48 (talk) 10:28, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone knows what your "proposal" is by now: please provide the diff here to refresh some memories. Again.  Sorry for the "short attention span"... <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  10:38, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If nobody is paying attention to your proposal and discusses it, you can make a safe bet that it doesn't have a consensus for it either. MLauba (Talk) 10:40, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Missed the point. You cannot choose to ignore what others say, then claim consensus, no matter how popular the vote. HiLo48 (talk) 10:47, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * "No matter how popular the vote." But, that would literally mean... oh, never mind. <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  10:51, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Are we talking about a specific proposal you made that was ignored? In which case, fine, I can't comment on that. But in the context of Dylan and his proposal; discussion appears to have been going on for a good while. The problem that exists is that if, as proposer, you define the margin for which something has been "properly discussed" you're always likely to be disappointed. The issue on that page is, I think, that the original content wanted to be added was trivial nonsense. In an effort to get it in the scope of the content was expanded, which met with rejection for its intent as much as anything (it is a common approach when someone can't get their preferred content in; and sometimes is good, sometimes less so). There may be content to be added, but while focus is maintained on the Africa gaffe trivia nothing constructive can happen. Sourcing for the content is marginal at this stage and extensive work (by which I mean several hours of research, this is not an easy 10m job) needs to be undertaken by those wanting to add that content to find sources, figure out what to say, write it and present it. At the moment the focus is very clearly on pushing the specific gaffe into the article; that is very definitely resisted by numerous people and will never go in because they have a clear policy reason for resisting it (BLP). Of course; it is easy to claim no consensus; that might be true, but as it is a BLP a stalled "no consensus" falls in favour of the "do not include" camp. --Errant $(chat!)$ 10:56, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I'm sorry, that little rant just reinforced my point. You, and others here, have been so obsessed with wanting to condemn everything Dylan has said (some of the opposition clearly politically motivated) that you failed to notice that someone else was even here. That's not just bad manners, it's just plain dumb. If you don't consider all points of view, how can you possibly claim consensus? Yes, I am talking about something I said that had a different perspective from Dylan's. As usual, it was ignored here. Not refuted. Just ignored. All very sad. I retired from the discussion at the article's talk page because of a total absence of rational discussion. I think I'll do the same here. Some topics on Wikipedia are never going to be objective. I accept that. Most of the content is great. HiLo48 (talk) 11:11, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If a "total absence of rational discussion" is what dissuades you in this community project, you're not being "rational" enough for most, I suppose. "Wikipedia is not a battleground".  I didn't make that up, so don't blame me for quoting it... <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  11:29, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As I said; I can't comment on anything of yours that you feel was ignored - point to it and I will be happy to comment. But what you were saying was ambiguous and could have been a general point - my "rant" was simply an attempt to explain. All I will say (prior to you pointing me at this proposal or whatever) is that if something is ignored then it is possibly the fault of the proposer; because it is bad, or confusingly worded for example. Generally I take the approach that if my comment is ignored there is a problem somewhere, so I should try again. Calling me dumb for missing something you're vaguely alluding to is not going to help your case; point me in the right direction and maybe I can comment. --Errant $(chat!)$ 11:46, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess I see the comment you might be talking about. I did read it, but it didn't really address anything meaningful and I thought the replies set that approach to rest (if you want a brief explanation; we are not in the process of "setting it right", plus the comment was simply rhetoric designed to play on our apparent view that such content reflected negatively on her and so, by extension, we'd want to consider mitigating that.) And this, I think, highlights my point about setting the bar for what you consider "meaningful discussion" of your own point - almost certainly no one else replied because, well, they felt it had been dealt with. --Errant $(chat!)$ 11:52, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * "You, and others here, have been so obsessed with wanting to condemn everything..." That couldn't be more of a red herring,  User:HiLo48, nor could it be more of a baseless bad faith accusation.  If you're going to go through the project assuming that anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint is "rant[ing]" and simply ignoring your recommendations, I'm afraid you're going to run into more than a few issues.  But I think it's particularly ironic that User:ErrantX invested a considerable amount of time in reviewing this content and, in fact, even expressed some support for further considering it above.  But since he doesn't endorse disruptive behaviour, he's somehow ranting?  Give me a break.  <b style="color:#df1620;">jæs</b> <small style="color:#6b6c6d;">(talk)  14:57, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

HiLo48, the kind of civil disruption for which DF was topic banned can stir up all kinds of kerfluffle, in which other editors post things which get missed (this is one reason why we have topic bans). I would think, if you go to the article talk page and bring up what you have in mind again, it'll at least be read this time. Gwen Gale (talk) 11:58, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry to interrupt the feeding frenzy of baseless accusations, but sometimes a person is polite because they're polite, and sometimes they're persistent because it's plain that the responses are evasive and inadequate, and sometimes unpopular speech is just unpopular speech, not "disruption". Labeling it as "disruption" simply because it's saying something that not everyone wants to hear and won't promptly shut up is a pretty obvious way to silence unpopular speech. Is that really what Wikipedia is about?
 * Of course, if all I knew of Wikipedia was this conversation, I would probably conclude that it's some sort of e-lynching site, based on the ugly and unconstructive tone. This crowd is here to hang a man, not to find out the truth or enforce justice. If there's anything I know about mob uprisings, it's that it's best to let them thoroughly work out their anger before confronting them. Therefore, I'm going to leave you to deal with your own issues. Assuming you don't just keep flailing at CU's until you luck onto some banned user who once lived within a 100 miles of me, I'll be back later. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  13:02, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * P.S.
 * For extra credit, see if you can misinterpret the note above as an excuse to block me for some imagined offense. I know you can do it if you don't let common sense and decency stand in your way. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  13:02, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, after reading all of this I have to say this, esp. after this last comment made by Dylan. I am not involved in anyway but I think the topic ban should be extended for at least a month after all of the above discussions. It's obvious Dylan doesn't agree but all of us have to listen to what others have to say and when they disagree with us we have to stop.  Dylan is not doing that and it's time to force it.  So I support the topic ban and say it should be extended so that what I am saying is clear.  -- Crohnie Gal  Talk  13:50, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

socking allegations
This needs to be announced, even though the discussion has been closed: the checkuser has confirmed that Dylan Flaherty is not a sock, of Benjiboi or of any other user. Since there was a good deal of discussion about this, I wanted to make sure everyone is aware that the sockpuppetry speculation was unfounded.  Horologium  (talk) 18:43, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Alison did not say DF was not a sock of any other user, though socking was never my worry here. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:46, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Repeated socking accusations have been one of the many tools used against him by some Dylan's opponents, many of which look from my perspective as attempts to get him silenced for what are really internal American political reasons. The allegations were wrong, but they have won, and suffered no consequences themselves. I do wonder how those editors would respond if they saw such behaviour in Discussion on an article about another country? HiLo48 (talk) 21:18, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I too would like to see retractions from the editors posting such false allegations. If not here, where is the appropriate place to ask this? - PrBeacon (talk) 21:31, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Would this also be the appropriate place to ask for one over the implication of some sort of conspiracy made in this edit? Niteshift36 (talk) 03:54, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No. - PrBeacon (talk) 04:59, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry. Did you post the wrong diff? There is no apology there. There is a strike through, where nearly 4 hours later, you decided to quietly try to act like you didn't make the allegation. But I don't see an apology or a retraction. I mean if it's ok for you to ask for them, it should be equally ok for you to give them. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:19, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, again. I made no accusation against you. You claimed to not want to be included in this 'drama' yet you keep replying. - PrBeacon (talk) 07:12, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You implied a comspiracy or some sort of collusion between us. You can sit here and act like you didn't, but everyone can see you did. I've shown what I wanted to show about you, so now you can have the last word that you crave so much, then cut and paste it all over to your talk page and have yet another conversation with yourself there. But thank you for the entertainment. Niteshift36 (talk) 07:30, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Heh. I didn't imply that, you inferred it. But I'm sure everyone else here is as happy to hear that you've gotten what you wanted, including a silly dig about my talkpg (really?) because your nonsense is unwelcome there. Do you need a shovel? - PrBeacon (talk) 08:01, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * en.WP is riddled with socks, editors would be startled to learn who runs some of them. The posts about socking were made in good faith and taken to CU, where no socking was found. This happens at ANI, it's not so untowards. Speaking only for myself, I was happy to hear CU did not link DF with Benjiboi. Meanwhile, as ever, DF is welcome on my talk page, to talk about the topic ban and find a means to lift it before the two weeks are up. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:51, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, its not bad faith to have a good faith claims that edit history, etc a possible sock report, its part of how wikipedia works. Alison has said that the user is not a sock of any of the users on the Benjibo case, and that is a simple checkuser fact. Off2riorob (talk) 21:54, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Good faith? Maybe. Maybe it's my evil mind, but I really can imagine some editors using it in bad faith. And it was while those allegations were still active that the block under discussion was decided upon. Did the "good faith" strategy achieve its goal? Hmmmm. Anyway, as PrBeacon has suggested above, an apology or "I was wrong" from the accusers would be a real sign of good faith. 22:11, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Horologium, for taking the time to announce it here. The claims of sockpuppetry were made as tho it was a fact. What was unknown was WHO Dylan was a sock of. What I foresaw yesterday was a scerario where, in two weeks, two months, etc. some editor would start to claim that DF was a sock and the proof could be found here. The admins involved said as much! It was all to ambiguously worded for my taste. But now we know...all of us...that DF is NOT a sock! And, Gwen, even when I re-read the sock accusations above, Im having trouble finding good faith. But I'll get over it.<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000">Buster Seven  <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000"> Talk  22:51, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The editor's immediate familiarity with wikipedia upon creation August 30th suggest to the average reader that he was not brand-new to wikipedia. If the checkusers did not find anything, then the question has to go on the back burner until or if new evidence arises. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:04, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Lack of Evidence is not evidence. Evidence is evidence. There isn't any. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000">Buster Seven  <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000"> Talk  00:16, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * You make it sound like I'm a sock just waiting for a foot to be found, sort of a Cinderella story with cotton instead of glass and an unhappy ending. The reality is that there was never a credible basis for claiming I was a sock. It was, from the start, a combination of paranoia, wishful thinking and just plain malice. I'm not going to ask anyone to apologize, because no amount of WP:AGF can convince me they're sorry, and my reputation here will never recover from this smearing. This whole thing has been a lynching held during a witch hunt, and it reflects poorly upon the entire "community". You should all be ashamed of yourselves, doubly so because you're not. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  00:17, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * You were created at 1:00 and within 2 hours you were messing with your monobook stuff. That kind of thing looks fishy, though it may be totally innocent. But the typical editor comes to wikipedia to edit articles first and foremost. You made a couple of changes to an article about a turtle, and then did something with the monobook thing. I'm just curious when it was you first learned about that technical detail? P.S. Don't be closing threads that are about yourself and which someone else opened. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:32, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Bugs, one of the life lessons that was dearly bought but I now hold in high regard is that, if you want to know why someone did a thing, you must ask. Until you ask, it is foolish to speculate. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  01:21, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've asked a question already. What's the answer? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:57, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, you never asked me. You talked about me, but that's not the same thing. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  02:13, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I distinctly said "You", but perhaps you missed that. One "life lesson" I learned about during the Watergate era is the "non-denial denial". So, let me ask you again: At what point in time did you learn about the monobook thingy? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:22, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes, I remember Watergate, but this is no Watergate. This is just you still making assumptions when you should be asking questions. In this case, the right question to ask is not when did I learn about the monobook thingy, but whether I ever did. And the answer is no.
 * My oldest son, who's a good deal more technical than I ever will be, introduced me to Wikipedia, signed me up and walked me through some of the basics. The reason my first edit was to Bog turtle is that it was the article of the day. Before the end of his visit, he also configured the account for my needs, set up a bookmark for the watchlist and fussed with some sort of Javascript addon for a bit; that last part would be your mysterious monobook. He couldn't get it working and I've never tried.
 * I think you'll find that life is both simpler and more complex than you make it out to be, but until you learn to ask instead of assume, you will forever be a prisoner of your own premises. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  07:53, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * So... he's basically wrong about everything in life and you're right? Your posts are often so pompous-sounding that it's a small wonder that you are constantly defending yourself.  Everyone is wrong sometimes Dylan, even you.  Yes: even you. <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  08:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * My first year or so of using Wikipedia was under another name which I decided to abandon for personal reasons, so when HiLo48 began posting he was already fairly familiar with the place. (Although I still stuff things up often enough.) But the name change was innocent. HiLo48 (talk) 00:20, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I smell a fish, too. But I don't jump to conclusions about the source. I was also hounded and stalked just after I started to edit. The stalker made the same kind of claims and I considered a new identity. So, maybe, some of us are more sensitive to false claims and unfounded innuendoes than others. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000">Buster Seven  <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:#008000"> Talk  00:48, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Jumping to conclusions is risky. Raising questions is fair. I've been accused of any number of things, but I don't worry about an allegation here unless it's true. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:10, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This stuff about using sock accusations to somehow "weaken" or "silence" an editor is absurd: the accuser has the egg on their face if they are wrong, not the accused. Most editors that get accused of socking have "disruptive tendencies" to begin with, so it's usually not a complete accident that someone in that position might find themselves accused of it.  When you're a regular subject at "misconduct" boards, accusations often fly around.  If you two are looking for apologies from every editor that mentioned the possibility of socking going on, I doubt that's going to happen.  I'm sorry if I'm wrong about you two, but no CU has been conducted on these two accounts.  Seeing that a CU has somehow cleared Dylan of any socking, I'm not going to press for one.  Cheers: and remember that the drama isn't really worth it so much... <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  04:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If he addresses that one loose end about the monobook, it would be fair for him to box up this section as being resolved. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:46, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * "I edited WP as an/several IP/s, but didn't want to register at that time. Then I created the named account.  I actually don't remember any of the IP numbers or the articles they edited."  I'm hoping he does better than that... <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  04:54, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Review of appeal closure
Could a few more administrators put eyes on this and share their thoughts here regarding Captain Occam? The matter about MathSci is being discussed at an arbitration clarification thread. Thanks! Vassyana (talk) 20:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * A recent appeal from an topic ban extension by, closed by me.
 * The thread where the sanction being appealed was imposed.


 * Thanks to Vassyana for posting this thread. One other discussion that I think admins ought to look at is here.


 * Although I didn’t state in that thread which arbitrator I was referring to, the context should make it should be fairly clear. Relevant diffs are here (describing the personal connection between these editors) and here (in which the arbitrator makes a proposal about the editor to whom he has this connection.)  According to HJ Mitchell’s comment in the thread in Jimbo’s user talk, Roger Davies should have recused himself about this. --Captain Occam (talk) 21:06, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Will you give it a rest, please? Go do something positive, edit an article, upload an image, contribute something to the project. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:33, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't quite know why Captain Occam chose Jimbo's talk page to reenact his version of the Shootout at the OK Corral. The script could be improved but the cinematography is stunning :) Mathsci (talk) 09:58, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Jimbo Wales offered his opinion in the thread in his user talk: that even though there probably isn’t an actual conflict of interest, it would still be best for Roger Davies to recuse himself in order to avoid the appearance of bias.  Getting Jimbo’s opinion was what I was after by posting there, so I’ve basically got what I wanted from that thread.  How much you want to drag out the argument there beyond this point is up to you. --Captain Occam (talk) 10:58, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Captain Occam is locked in a dispute with ArbCom at present. He has made a series of unfounded accusations over the past 12 hours which seem to be fairly serious personal attacks. I hope for the sake of his own future as an editor on wikipedia that he can somehow manage to find a way of deescalating his dispute with ArbCom. One way might be through a private dialogue with members of ArbCom, as at least one of them has already suggested in a slightly different context. Mathsci (talk) 11:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Moot now Mathsci (talk) 13:50, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * So is this issue over with now? You’ve agreed not to participate in race and intelligence related articles anymore, and this is the condition under which your topic ban was lifted.  I obviously won’t be participating in them either.  The articles I’m intending to edit are articles you probably don’t care about, and the articles you’ll be editing are articles I probably don’t care about.  So there’s no reason we should have to interact with one another anymore.


 * I’d prefer that we didn’t. I’ll be glad to leave you alone if you can return the favor, but this will have to involve you not following me to discussions about my sanctions that don’t involve you, or making apparently frivolous accusations of sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry against me.  (I say your accusations about this were frivolous because during the month since you claimed it, no one else has appeared to agree with you that this claim was justified, and none of the alleged socks have been blocked or sanctioned.)  I think it’s best for everyone, ourselves included, if we stay away from one another from now on.  Can you agree to that? --Captain Occam (talk) 14:30, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Just to make a small correction here, the accusations of meatpuppetry seem quite well founded indeed as you should know since I emailed you to discuss the information privately. They've not been blocked because we want to give them a chance to become editors in their own right as we initially did with Ferhago, but if they continue with your disputes or other issues in the topic area, they will be banned from the topic area as well. Shell   babelfish 14:38, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Shell, for clarifying that. Mathsci (talk) 14:42, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Shell: you e-mailed me asking me what I knew about these editors, and in response I answered your question and asked you what your suspicions were based on. You never got back to me again after that.  If there actually is evidence of meatpuppetry, that’s news to me, since you never replied to my e-mail asking you about it.


 * I’m also confused by your comment about Ferahgo. The whole time Ferahgo was involved in race and intelligence articles, they were never the focus of her involvement in Wikipedia.  At this point they only make up around 2% of her contribution history.  The reason she was topic banned by NuclearWarfare wasn’t because she was acting the same way I had been, but because she and I share an IP address, and NW decided that this meant my topic ban should extend to her also.  (And he stated this when he topic banned her.)  Is what you’re saying that even if these editors participate in race and intelligence articles only as much as Ferahgo did, they’ll still be considered meatpuppets and I’ll be assumed to be the puppeteer? --Captain Occam (talk) 15:08, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually my first email explained the evidence and where the connection came from; you disclaimed any knowledge of these editors and offered the suggestion that the connection was simply a coincidence, a response I didn't find credible. You seem to misremember the various comments made regarding Ferhago and her eventual topic ban including those which pointed out her only contributions to the topic area (and her first edits here) were simply to bolster your position or continue identical arguments in remarkably similar language.  It's difficult to fathom how three editors, related to you via an external site would appear of their own impetus immediately following both of those topic bans, posses in-depth knowledge of Wikipedia, the dispute and the arbitration case, continue your arguments on the topic and immediately move to a properly formed user RfC in under two weeks of activity here.  Nevertheless, in an attempt to give them the benefit of the doubt, they were not immediately blocked in the hopes that they would develop their own interest in Wikipedia.  The amount of participation (or lack thereof) has little to do with the issue; behavior will be the deciding factor. Shell   babelfish 15:22, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Wait, it’s three editors? The only editors I know about who were under suspicion are Woodsrock and Sightwatcher.  Who’s the third one?


 * You told me in your e-mail that there was evidence that Woodsrock and Sightwatcher are members of the DeviantArt community that Ferahgo and I run. You didn’t tell me what that evidence was, or what names you think they’re registered under there, when I asked you about this.  I would still appreciate an explanation about this.  You seem to think I already have a perfect understanding of all that’s going on regarding this, but I’m really in the dark here, and now I’m worried that at some point in the future I’m going to get hit with an additional sanction for supposedly using meatpuppets without ever understanding what it’s based on. --Captain Occam (talk) 15:37, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * TrevelyanL85A2. Please read WP:BEANS to see why you could not be shown the evidence. Mathsci (talk) 17:16, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * All right, fine, I can’t make you or Shell tell me what evidence there is about this if neither of you want to. And I guess it isn’t really necessary at this stage anyway.  ArbCom hasn’t sanctioned any of these accounts, and it doesn’t accomplish anything to argue over the merits of a decision that ArbCom might make sometime in the future but hasn’t made yet.  I just hope that if at some point in the future I get sanctioned under the assumption that these accounts were my meatpuppets, ArbCom will be willing to tell me what evidence this sanction was based on, as well as how it was determined that these accounts were my meatpuppets and not someone else’s. --Captain Occam (talk) 18:24, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Anybody can work out the connection between TrevelyanL85A2 and Ferahgo the Assassin, once it's been pointed out. Mathsci (talk) 18:32, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Will this ever end. It seems that every decision is an excuse to start a new discussion or manufacture a new controversy with the usual long walls of text. The amount of hand holding and attention seeking is getting out of hand. We shouldn't lose sight of our main purpose as Wikipedians, that is to build an encyclopedia. It is my opinion that users who are a constant distraction and constantly diverting time and energy from building an encyclopedia are disruptive. If such users are unable to demonstrate that they can contribute meaningfully to the encyclopedia, then it is in the best interest of the encyclopedia if such users were shown the door. Wapondaponda (talk) 16:32, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, we wouldn't want to lose sight of our main purpose as Wikipedians while people are being banned due to spurious charges and secret messages. Flobbably (talk) 16:54, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have just reported the above user on WP:SPI as a suspected sockpuppet of Mikemikev. Mathsci (talk) 17:34, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * How can you know so quickly that this is a Mikemikev sock? I’m not saying it isn’t, but I really don’t see how you can tell this when he’s only made one edit, and it’s not to any of the articles or talk pages where Mikemikev used to participate regularly.


 * I think the unique problem here is the general atmosphere of paranoia that exists in discussions about controversial articles. (This is mostly an answer to Coren’s question.)  Based on the ruling from the recent climate change case, the same problem seems to exist there also, particularly with regard to the number of editors who’ve been blocked under the mistaken assumption that they were Scibaby socks.  In this case, I get the impression that the efforts being made to identify and block suspected sockpuppets are causing more disruption than the accounts themselves are causing.  At the very least this was true of User:TisTRU, who was blocked four days ago as a Mikemikev sockpuppet despite having edited nothing but art history articles.  (The blocking admin eventually reconsidered their decision and unblocked him.) --Captain Occam (talk) 18:11, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Groan. Mathsci (talk) 18:15, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * And confirmed as a sockpuppet of Mikemikev.Sockpuppet_investigations/Mikemikev So much for Captain Occam's statements about "paranoia". Mathsci (talk) 18:47, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I was about to comment mentioning that I’m impressed you figured this one out based on a single edit. But you know, I really think this is a Scibaby-like situation.  The estimate of how many editors were falsely blocked as Scibary sockpuppets was around 20-40% of the total.  (40% early on, and with enough effort it was lowered to 20%).  If the same principle applies here, then TisTRU was one of the 20-40%, while Flobbably was one of the remaining 60-80%.  In either this case or climate change, you can’t point to a single correct block and say that it means there isn’t any problem with editors being falsely accused. --Captain Occam (talk) 19:02, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have not so far been wrong with Mikemikev. However, since honesty seems to be the issue here, I believe that your current conduct, including the remarks addressed to on Jimbo's talk page, warrants an indefinite community ban. Just my 2 cents worth. Mathsci (talk) 19:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * My original suggestion to you in this thread was that we go our separate ways and leave each other alone from now on, and I asked you whether you could agree to that. You didn’t reply to my question, but it looks like you’re answering it in a different way.  In response to my suggestion that we both walk away from this issue, your intention is to begin lobbying for me to be site-banned now? --Captain Occam (talk) 19:27, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It was only my 2 cents worth, no more. It is time to draw a line. Please try to take responsibility for your actions and stop continually blaming others for your own weaknesses or failings. Everybody has their weaknesses, including me. Once we've recognized them, we can move on. Mathsci (talk) 19:45, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I’m just sick of thinking about these issues in general. Right now I don’t feel like analyzing my own weaknesses or anyone else’s.  What I feel like is taking a Wikibreak until sometime after Christmas, and then when I come back, editing an article that has nothing to do with race or intelligence.  I’ve had more than enough Wikipedia drama for one year, and I hope that at least for me, 2011 will contain a lot less of it than 2010 did. --Captain Occam (talk) 20:07, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That is a good idea. I wish both you and Ferahgo a happy festive season. Be careful of the bones if you are considering pterodactyls for dessert :) Mathsci (talk) 21:50, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * (e/c) It will always remain interesting to me how thousands of editors work every day on Wikipedia without running into all those horrible systemic flaws and the evil admin secret police, yet the same couple of dozen editors keep stumbling onto the vast conspiracy over and over and getting into trouble through no fault of their own. It's also amazing to see how the "spurious charges and secret messages" seem to affect only a microscopic fragment of the editorial corps.  But of course, the problem couldn't possibly lie with the poor victimized heroes.  &mdash; Coren (talk) 17:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That's sort of where I am on this. Some people are willing to invest in any idea, however far-fetched or paranoid, except for the possibility that they might be wrong. MastCell Talk 22:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree with the outdented statement above, "We shouldn't lose sight of our main purpose as Wikipedians, that is to build an encyclopedia. It is my opinion that users who are a constant distraction and constantly diverting time and energy from building an encyclopedia are disruptive." I had a good time at last week's International Society for Intelligence Research conference in DC meeting scholars who in some cases disagreed quite starkly with one another on issues of fact but who in all cases were civil in dealing with one another and thoughtful in discussing current research studies. There is a lot to learn about many of the subjects related to the articles under dispute. There are many good examples in the scholarly community of authors who gather statements about the agreed conclusions of research into reliable secondary sources, while making clear what issues have yet to be completely resolved by primary research scholarship. As Wikipedia's role in the worldwide process of informal education is to be an encyclopedia, Wikipedia should mostly deal with the agreed statements found in reliable secondary sources. The conduct of actual, grown-up professional scholars is a good guide to all of us on how to verify factual statements in reliable sources and how to edit an encyclopedia collaboratively. Happy New Year wishes to all wikipedians. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 04:02, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

User:Eickman
User:Eickman has repeatedly added a link to his personal webpage into the Son of perdition article. He was questioned about it here and here, advised against it here (which he responded to here), and then warned here and here. And yet he has added the link repeatedly, the most recent occasions being here, here and here. StAnselm (talk) 07:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

All this is sectarian nonsense from two individuals--StAnselm and Tawain Boi--to try and suppress the full release of factual information on Wikipedia representing all viewpoints on the given topics, including those of various Jewish groups, higher critics, minor Christian movements like the Unitarians and Idealists, etc, etc. And if you don't believe it, take a look at the articles before I started editing them versus after. (Better yet, take a look at what these two characters did after my last block for fighting with them over minority viewpoints--they immediately moved in to reduce the articles back to their sectarian positions.) The pages are "Son of Perdition," "Historicism (Christian)," and "Book of Daniel."

Ike Eickman (talk) 08:07, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As the diffs provided by StAnselm demonstrate, this has nothing to do with sectarianism. A range of editors have objected to your idiosyncratic POV edits and your repeated breach of Wiki policy. One of your sources was rejected as a WP:RS by the WP:RS noticeboard. You included it anyway. It was taken out, and you were informed that the WP:RS noticeboard had rejected it. You put it in again. Despite a number of editors informing you that it was not a WP:RS, you continued to include it, along with a link to your own book, which you advertise on your talk page. You are also blocked more than once for repeated abuse of other editors.--Taiwan boi (talk) 09:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

1) This is all about sectarianism.

2) I have included no "idiosyncratice POV edits" anywhere on Wikipedia--I've represented all groups and all points of views.

3) The finding of the "reliable sources" was unreliable, as the reviewers nor the requesters knew anything about Unitarian or Idealist theology or the significance of the source.

4) I have included no "link to my book;" I linked to a sound definition of triunism which is obtuse or overly complicated in the other sources listed.

5) You have repeatedly demonstrated that you know little to nothing about the subject matter, as per your latest questions regarding typology, declaring that none of the sources say anything about "multiple applications in multiple contexts" when that is precisely what "typology" is, i.e. a prototype points to a FUTURE person, object, or action.

Why you're still meddling is anyone's guess.

Ike Eickman (talk) 16:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You are misrepresenting what I wrote. I pointed out that none of the sources say anything about "multiple applications in multiple contexts" with regard to the son of perdition. You really need to address the numerous problems with your edits, and start adhering to Wiki policy.--Taiwan boi (talk) 03:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Eickman you have been repeatedly asked for sources to support your various positions by the other editors. Linking to your own website and advert for your book simply does not cut the mustard. If you are sufficiently notable and mainstream as an academic in this field then your book could be a secondary source, but you would need to demonstrate that degree of notability. Fainites barley scribs 18:43, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * This is not about sectarianism, this is about and his personal attacks and his failure to use reliable sources for his assertions as well as his insistence on original research and synthesis, not to mention citing himself in a clear conflict of interest. If Eickman can't be civil and can't abide by other Wikipedia policies then there is no place for him or his edits here. Elizium23 (talk) 20:38, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

So now we have four independent editors reporting this issue, and a number of diffs proving it. What next? I'm interested to know, since Eickmann is continuing to edit pages repeatedly inserting his idiosyncratic POV, continuing to add a link which directs people to his book, and continuing to use sources which have already been rejected as failing WP:RS.--Taiwan boi (talk) 16:58, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Nobody seems to be interested except me. I suspect that is because of the dense and particular nature of the subject matter. It's not something most people, including me, could even have a pot shot at getting the hang of without a lot of work. It's always a worry in case the person being complained of as disruptive in a dense content dispute is in fact the lone GF editor losing his cool against a sea of POV pushers. I'm not for a moment saying that is the case here, but it's difficult to get to the bottom of. However, it does seem to me that using his own webpage as a source is inappropritae. I should also say that I googled "Triunism" and on the first two pages, what came up where it was being used in the religious sense was Eickman's webpage and discussion boards where the participant using the word as usually someone called "Ike".Fainites barley scribs 17:50, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not just that single link, it's the fact that he consistently, blatantly, ignores Wiki policy and even insists that Wiki policy is wrong. I added the statement "The "city on seven hills" in Revelation is understood by the majority of modern scholarly commentators as a reference to Rome.", and provided thirteen references supporting it. Not only did he revert this, he claimed that the majority view has no place in Wikipedia. His words:
 * ""Majority" and "minority" are fairly irrelevant in an encyclopedic reference." (diff)
 * "First sectarian-driven blatantly false statement: "Majority opinion is what this encyclopedia insists on," then refers to other opinions as "fringe," meaning any group not in the mainstream, i.e. Unitarians, Mormons, JWs, minority Catholic opinions (like those of the Jesuits), etc, etc." (diff)
 * "Second sectarian-driven blatantly false statement: "The majoriy of scholarly commentators understand John to be referring to Rome." "Scholarly opinions" are like genitals--everyone has them, but it's rarely a good idea to discuss them in public. That's why every sect has their own "scholars."" (diff)
 * This is not the first time he has displayed willful disregard for Wiki policies, which he insists are simply wrong. He is currently tying up the time of three editors. I do not understand why he is permitted to continue like this. All the rest of us do our best to follow Wiki policy, and what's the point in me taking all the time to provide 20 or 30 WP:RS for an article if in reality Wiki policies aren't going to be upheld? The lack of enforcement of Wiki policy (including admins who refuse to act because they can't be bothered, or tell people they're not interested in that subject so they won't get involved, or say "too long; didn't read" when you post a report), is the worst aspect of this unruly mess of an "encyclopedia". What do we have to do to get Wiki policy enforced around here?--Taiwan boi (talk) 23:36, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I think what we have here is an out-of-control editor who is not interesting in following Wikipedia policy or submitting to Wikipedia consensus. He was blocked for one week for rudeness, and that hasn't changed his behaviour. I suggest he be blocked for a month now. StAnselm (talk) 20:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Eickman. Please stop using your own website as a source. If what you say is a mainstream or recognised or accepted viewpoint then it should be capable of being sourced from notable secondary sources. This does not include your website. If you continue to try and use your website as a source - that would be disruptive. In addition, your manner of editing is becoming increasingly aggressive and offensive again. It is not acceptable to call editors who disgree with you liars or the like. Fainites barley scribs 21:00, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * In case it isn't clear yet, he isn't listening to you. Telling him "Eickman, don't be naughty" doesn't work. It didn't work the first five times he was told, and it doesn't work now. After his first block he simply repeated his previous behaviour. After his second block he simply repeated his behaviour. He will continue to repeat his behaviour because he is being allowed to get away with it. He has learned that he can do as he pleases and there will be no consequences.--Taiwan boi (talk) 23:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I was giving him a clear warn ing with a view to taking it further if he ignored it. I see however Elen has beaten me to it.Fainites barley scribs 13:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I have blocked Eickman indefinitely for inserting material and links from his own website (which is only a reliable source for the contents of his own brain, and does not belong on the 'pedia) and for using misleading edit summaries (particularly the very last one here to disguise what he is doing. That last ploy moves him from the merely annoying and into the disruptive. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:14, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Now we can all get on with improving articles.--Taiwan boi (talk) 00:46, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * On question, has Eickman ever been conclusively proven to be the person who wrote the book, and officially given copyright permissions to Wikipedia? As if not then User:Eickman is a copyvio as well. <font color="Blue">Canterbury Tail <font color="Blue">talk  13:38, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Dunno how you'd "conclusively prove" it on Wiki. It's a not unreasonable assumption given the name, contents of the website and discussion boards. Nobody else seems to be talking about triunism in the same way other than an author called Eickleberry, an editor called Eickman and a contributor called Ike.Fainites barley scribs 13:51, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Copyvio or not, it was definitely shilling for the book, so I've G11'd it. It's no different to someone advertising anything else. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:54, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Wuhsuohwey
has been adding Wu-speaking peoples-related POV forks that are probably hoaxes (as they are yielding no Google hits). I've opened an AfD on one of these articles, and since then the user has added more. In light of the user's behavior, I am now inclined to block and speedily delete the articles he/she created, but I'd like some second opinions before doing so. --Nlu (talk) 14:06, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Go with your instinct. Whose Your Guy (talk) 14:31, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Also (in case you forgot) I notified the editor of this thread. :) Whose Your Guy (talk) 14:32, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It's interesting that the interwiki links he placed on his new article Goetan actually correspond to Wu Chinese. (If you follow the "English" link back from them, that's where they take you.) Misleading, if nothing else. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:44, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, he can't be blamed for that; he linked the Chinese Wikipedia article on Wu Chinese to his new article of Goetan; I reverted it over there. --Nlu (talk) 00:13, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Carl Truscott
has been the subject of a low-speed edit war that has left the article that includes both peacock language and vague statements of misconduct, in the variations that it has. As I am completely unfamiliar with the subject, I would appreciate it if someone who is more familiar can look into it and hand out appropriate warnings and/or take additional actions on it. (As it stands right now, I feel I can't hand out warnings since I can't distinguish between edits that are accurate, good-faith but inaccurate, good-faith but POV, defamatory, and vandalism as to this article.) --Nlu (talk) 14:30, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

List of The Simpsons DVDS
Here there is some edit warring going on here by User:The Ultimate Koopa and User:Sergecross73. The Ultimate Koopa is being extremely uncivil in his edit summaries and this could escalate into further problems therefore Admin intervention is needed as dispute resolution is CLEARLY not working. -- Addi hockey  10 e-mail 00:17, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have blocked The Ultimate Koopa for 24 hours for extreme incivility. -- Jayron  32  00:22, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Could someone remove the summaries please? Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 00:28, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Under what grounds? -- Jayron  32  00:37, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * He called Sergecross73 a "f*ing hypocrite", along with some other disgusting words. I deleted the edit summaries, not the edits, but if you feel it's okay to have that visible you can restore it. Krakatoa  Katie  00:40, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Let me point out that this isn't the first time The Ultimate Koopa has used edit summaries extremely inappropriately. Examples include the following: A, B, C, and D. I have addressed this to him on his talk page but he didn't acknowledge his behavior in any way. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 00:51, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand this is not my place but would a longer block (1 week) be more appropriate to get our point across? -- Addi hockey  10 e-mail 02:21, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If he comes back and does the same thing, I suspect his next break will be much longer than a week... Bobby Tables (talk) 02:27, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

For the record, I wasn't "edit warring". I merely undid one of his edits once because his rationale for his past edit was something along the lines of "it's not available in stores around me so it's not released". Something like that. I have randomly run past him in the past though, and his edit comments can indeed be inappropriate. (Usually profanity, or attacking users instead of ideas.) Sergecross73   msg me   02:51, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't mean to cause trouble, but I'm unaware of any attempt by either of you to resolve this problem with dispute resolution. I could be wrong, but it's what I saw. -- Addi hockey  10 e-mail 04:08, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Scratch that, you only undid once. For some reason I thought you had undid twice, my apologies Sergecross73. -- Addi hockey  10 e-mail 04:09, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No problem, as long as you now know what happened. It took me a while to figure out what was even going on when I got the alert on my talk page, because I wasn't aware of any disputes I was involved in. I was wondering aimlessly on wikipedia, undid an edit, and kept moving. I didn't even realize Ultimate Koopa had responded to me at all until I came here...  Sergecross73   msg me   16:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

SergeWoodzing
has been, for the past couple days, been very insistent here that has a username that fails the name-pol as an impersonating username (specifically, as a username impersonating the Queen herself). QE2LS took it to CHU to get a name change, but when he got there both and  told him that there was no username issue, and it went back to his talk page. Nihonjoe, myself, and came in there and told SergeWoodzing that QE2LS's username did not violate policy, but he responded with somewhat more belligerent posts (The last one refers to this diff, where I pointed out to him that his posts were getting increasingly inflammatory). Essentially, Serge is unwilling to lay off the dead horse, even after four people have told him specifically the username is not a violation. Since I don't think any further interaction on my part is going to help, could I ask an addie to intervene? — Jeremy  ( v^_^v Hyper Combo K.O.! ) 10:17, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know if there was an edit conflict here, but you must have missed this where I have basically given up because I am outnumbered and also felt things were gettting out of hand over there. I apologize sincerely to anyone who has seen my honest opinion about that user name as any kind of an affront. SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:50, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * MHO impersonation is when someone 'might' be the real person, so impersonation is possible. Not I think a risk here - if the person claimed to be Zara Phillips, one of the Queen's granddaughters it could be a problem (well, she might be interested in editing wikipedia). --Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:54, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed she might, and so might a semi-anonymous representative of the Queen, or at least so many readers probably suspect (no matter how foolish they might seem to suspect it or wonder) when they see that name. That was my good faith point. SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:17, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Balkan edit-warring only account
, removes refs and sourced text without discussion, and reverts incessantly. Any help would be appreciated.Athenean (talk) 19:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Problematic, but you have not notified of this message, as you are required to, and the user has not edited after the latest warning. I see no need for admin action at this time, but if problems recommence, see WP:AN3 and WP:ARBMAC.   Sandstein   20:10, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Recreation of a deleted page, sort of.
I don't know if this really belongs here, or if there might be a better place to report/request intervention. It would appear that the deleted page Francisco Coll García has been recreated or, more precisely, its talk page has been with, i presume (not being able to see the deleted page), the same information. I imagine that this gets immediately redeleted, which is why i've come here. If not, a word to the wise will let me know for next time.... Meantime, i'm going to tell the recreator of this note. Cheers, LindsayHello 19:20, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Article talkpage deleted, and ip blocked for 31 hours for attempting to evade the earlier deletion. LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:26, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow quick work ~ so quick, what with the computer freeze-up, i didn't even get a chance to go to the IP's page. Thanks for the help. Cheers, LindsayHello 19:30, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars
User:Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars has been going around removing succession boxes from song articles, despite multiple editors asking him to stop.

I first encountered Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars when I created an article with a succession box, which he then removed. I didn't think the change was an improvement, but I didn't revert; instead, I went to his talk page to ask about it, where I discovered that multiple editors, including User:L-l-CLK-l-l (diff), User:Candyo32 (diff) and User:Yong (discussion) had already visited his talk page and asked him to stop. I added my request that he stop as well; he replied with his reasoning on my talk page (discussion), we discussed it a bit, and I proposed a compromise (diff) that would require stricter sourcing requirements for the boxes (which would incidentally allow him to remove practically all of them anyway). He rejected the proposed compromise and kept plowing away at removing them from articles  while the discussion was ongoing, which caught the attention of User:TheRetroGuy, who reverted the removal and told him to knock it off (diff). Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars then reinstated the change TheRetroGuy reverted, and continued removing boxes from other articles.

I found Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars' changes irritating, but having no desire to get into an edit war (especially over something as trivial as succession boxes), I left his changes alone. Today, however, I noticed a budding edit war on Hungry Like the Wolf. I had added a succession box there on October 20 (article history), before I was aware of the whole debate. It remained in the article for two months, until Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars removed it today. Another editor didn't appreciate the removal, and undid it. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars responded by removing it again.

I would like Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars to stop going around removing these. Since he's ignored multiple requests from multiple editors along those same lines, I feel I'm forced to bring it here. At the very least, I would like him to stop reinstating his changes when other editors undo them.

Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars and the other editors mentioned have been notified of this thread. 28bytes (talk) 19:49, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The stylistic question of whether song articles should have succession boxes seems to be undecided, judging by the discussions at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (record charts)/Archive 11. I recommend starting a WP:RFC to determine whether some consensus can be arrived at with the input of more people.
 * Nonetheless, in analogy to WP:STABILITY, editors should not make controversial mass style changes unless there is consensus about which style is preferable. If Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars continues to make such mass changes, and edit-wars about them, they may be blocked from editing.   Sandstein   20:30, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the suggestion, Sandstein. I think an RFC for this would be a good idea and will start one when I return from vacation, if no one beats me to it. 28bytes (talk) 20:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * This has been a battle for sometime now. I've been trying to keep the succession boxes on the pages, but the user has kept asserting that the consensus was to remove these boxes in favor of "See also" lists. So there are probably hundreds of music articles on #1 songs that no longer have these due to this user's biased opinions. I do remember a discussion about this, but there was never any consensus, and this user is the only one pushing it for some odd reason. Candy  o32  - Merry CHRISTmas :)  20:37, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I have had follow-up conversations with many of the editors who have contacted me. I never infer consensus has been reached, but refer them to the long-running discussion on various Wikiproject songs/albums/chart pages, a history of which can be found archived at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (record charts)/Archive 11, to make up their own mind.
 * User talk:Candyo32/Archive 3. User:Candyo32 did not comment on the record chart talk page and has never warned me again.
 * User talk:Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars. Conversation with User:L-l-CLK-l-l revealed concern was with my replacing the boxes with a long list of links, not removal of the succession boxes.
 * User talk:Yong. I responded with my reasoning as did another editor, separately. User has never warned me since.
 * If someone reverts my change of such removal, I am allowed to revert it back if I disagree with it, offering my reasoning or often referring them to the link above in the edit summary.
 * There is no "budding edit war" on Hungry Like the Wolf, nor was there on Joanna (song). If someone reverts a second time, I let it be unless the other editor has conceded through discussion. I've never approached WP:3RR. Country songs, in particular, seem to be off limits by a few select editors, and I've avoided remove them from those.
 * There is no consensus either to have or not to have succession boxes for #1 songs and albums. Thousands of articles have them, I've removed them from hundreds that haven't been reverted since. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 20:43, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Accusation (mine) of personal attacks, uncivil behavior
I would like uninvolved editors to have a look at a dispute I managed to get into at Talk:Theoria. I was alerted to that talk page by this edit, which passed by while I was watching Recent changes; my curiosity got the better of me. I'll not say more, not wanting to stack the deck; please look for yourself. My first substantive comment was this, and you can see what happened. There is a note on my talk page as well, by one of the involved editors, and I asked User:PMDrive1061 for their advice, on their talk page--I believe that is full disclosure. One more note: there is a content dispute, apparently, but I personally am only interested in the behavior. I'm placing an ANI notice on the talk page. Thank you in advance for your time and interest. Drmies (talk) 04:16, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've given various parties to this advice at various times, and I have my doubt that the problems are remediable while the current editors are involved, which is my general position on the interaction between content disputes and personal attacks.   DGG ( talk ) 00:54, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

User:Batphone boy
User:Batphone boy seems to be an obvious troll as evidenced by his comment on WT:WPTF. Can we get a block and checkuser to figure out who the hell is behind this? --6Shot (talk) 10:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I am going to close this discussion since blocked both as socks of . Reaper Eternal (talk) 23:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Mistake
✅ I created two templates today. I was intending to create a third when I discovered a repeated typo in the name of my subject, the subject of the templates. I am asking for Admin assistance to rename: Template:Roger Krodsma M55 Pentathlon to: Template:Roger Kroodsma M55 Pentathlon

and: Template:Roger Krodsma M60 Pentathlon to: Template:Roger Kroodsma M60 Pentathlon

Notice the extra "o" Thank you. Trackinfo (talk) 00:31, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This is not a request for AN/I. WP:REQMOVE would have been the correct venue. Templates have been moved. Jarkeld (talk) 00:39, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Range block request
A long term vandal I'm tracking is currently active on the range 76.203.72.0/22. His last two used IPs are (blocked when it was used last week) and  (in use within the past hour).— Ryūlóng  (<font color="Gold">竜龙 ) 04:50, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

The individual is now editing on. The range above would indeed prevent this vandal from continuing his editing.— Ryūlóng (<font color="Gold">竜龙 ) 05:17, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Celibacy
I got a negative response on my talk page from an IP that I warned for (what I believe to be) vandalism of :


 * Dear Nlu,


 * I spent about an hour of my personal time to rewrite the intro of Celibacy. In comments, I have specifically stated that articles must be written in an encyclopedic manner, i.e. "Celibacy means having no partner" is very lame. Moreover, definitions were wrong. Yes, I also removed a source request there, which was not needed anymore anyway since I rewrote it.


 * You reverted my edit, came write about vandalism on my page, moreover, jumped to the last warning right off. I demand explanation within the next 24 hours, or I will a) revert YOUR edits and b) complain about your behavior to an administrator.


 * Thank you,
 * 184.163.123.4 (talk) 16:43, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

This was my response:


 * Read WP:NPOV. Your "definition" of celibacy is not in accordance with neutral view of what the term means.  If you continue to do what you've been doing, expect to be blocked.  --Nlu (talk) 19:40, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Now, I re-read 's edits on Celibacy, and I still believe that it was vandalism. However, I would like a second opinion on it. I'd also like a second opinion on whether I 1) should have given no response at all; 2) gave too harsh of a response; 3) gave too lenient of a response; 4) should reword my response. --Nlu (talk) 19:51, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The IP's edits are not vandalism. They may have not belonged in the article, but vandalism is very narrowly defined as intentionally trying to degrade the quality of the encyclopedia.  Insofar as the IP believes his edits to be improving the article, they are not vandalism.  See WP:VANDALISM.  Now, that does not mean that the edits are allowed, or should stay in the article.  There are many things a person can do to run afoul of Wikipedia guidelines or policies, and only a small subset of that is vandalism.  Please do not call things vandalism when they are not, because it leads to undue bad feelings all around.  -- Jayron  32  20:24, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I notified 184.163.123.4 of this thread. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 20:36, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you. 184.163.123.4 (talk) 02:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Jayron32, I believe it is vandalism because they were edits that the IP editor should have known to be not acceptable and still wrote anyway; note that WP:VAND's parts excluding bad edits from the definition of vandalism deal with good faith edits, which these are not. It is different from a situation where the IP editor's edits are only violative of, for example, WP:NPOV, but had done so without knowledge that his/her actions are violative. The edits were clearly made to provoke and to make an unwarranted point, and therefore count as vandalism as far as I'm concerned. --Nlu (talk) 21:23, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Nlu, but I have to totally disagree. I don't see how the IP's edit counts as vandalism, by any stretch, so you'll have to explain your stance more. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 22:06, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe I've already explained — I believe the edits are vandalism because they were done in bad faith — and I believe that I also have indicated that I believe reasonable minds might differ on this. But in any case, what I am still not hearing is any additional thoughts on what should be done (if anything) as to this IP's edits.  I am hearing no disagreements that the edits are inappropriate, so whether vandalism or not, the question now is what to do with them.  --Nlu (talk) 22:08, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The IP in question took the "lame" definition of celibacy (the kind of explanation you would give to a child when you don't want to get into the gory details), and expanded it in an inaccurate direction. But it doesn't look like bad-faith, it just looks like the IP doesn't know what he's talking about, and that's not vandalism. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:57, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I fail to see how bringing my comment to a general discussion would resolve Nlu's incompetent action. Please explain to me how you consider my edit being of "bad faith". To me "bad faith" is intentional mischief on an article, which perfectly suits the definitions of vandalism. As I mentioned, I was rewriting the introduction, and unless you consider, among other things, me bringing in original research, unsourced material and claims, or subjectivisms, I see no way of you interfering with my edit. On a side note, none of your arguments, justified or not, can possibly explain why you jumped to a warning straight off, as on no occasions to my knowledge does Wikipedia have a final-warning-first policy, unless it is an edit consisting of vocabulary relating to the word "penis". And by the way, you have 12 hours left. Thank you, 184.163.123.4 (talk) 02:05, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * IP, reading your edit, it is clear to me that you are trying to redefine celibacy to mean 'being unmarried' - you even explicitly state that celibate people might have sexual intercourse, which is pretty much in contradiction to the standard definition of celibacy. While I don't think I'd call your edit vandalism myself, I can certainly see how it could look that way.  You are clearly distorting the definition of the term to an exceptional extent, and it is only through a conscious effort of will that I can give the benefit of the doubt that you might actually believe what you wrote (which is the only thing saving this from actually being vandalism).  -- Ludwigs 2  02:22, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Ludwigs, I would call this "original research", however only if what you refer to as "standard" definition comes from a well-known dictionary. I was willing to include a paragraph that would state "do not mistake celibacy for sexual abstinence", as to my belief, and I do believe in logic and common sense, a celibate person can freely engage in a one-time sexual relationship with an individual, or to say so, lead a life of constantly engaging in sexual relations with different individuals. The key element of celibacy, to my point of view, is the absence of civil union, even if that union extends to the terms "boyfriend" and "girlfriend". Also, a person deprived of sexual relations is not necessarily celibate, which proves by deduction of the contrary that thinking so is wrong, as many relationships within a civil unions can be of asexual nature. 184.163.123.4 (talk) 02:33, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * IP must gain a consensus on the talkpage, before implimenting changes to article-in-question. GoodDay (talk) 02:14, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Why do you treat IP like dirt? Maybe I'm just too lazy to log in. Geez, go outside sometime, people! 184.163.123.4 (talk) 02:17, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Your status is irrevelant, IPs & registered editors must get a consensus on a talkpage, so as to impliment such changes. GoodDay (talk) 02:18, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you please indicate what policy you are referring to and since when is such a policy in effect? Thank you,184.163.123.4 (talk) 02:26, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:BRD - You Boldly made changes to the article. Your changes were Reverted & now you must Discuss why you wish to make the changes. GoodDay (talk) 02:28, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I will henceforth inquire on this policy before editing other articles. Thank you,184.163.123.4 (talk) 02:34, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No prob. GoodDay (talk) 02:36, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I do not belive that the IP user was truely vandalising or acting in bad faith. From the way the edits look to me, I think that the IP was acting in good faith and trying to improve the article (regardless of whether any of it is the absolutely right definition or whether it follows the style guidelines), which is not vandalism, nor is it in bad faith. Vandalism and bat-faith edits mean that the edits are being made to disrupt, cause problems, etc. Trying to make the article better, whatever the style of the edits, is acting in good faith and is not vandalism. The IP user made the edits to the article, and Nlu reverted them. This may be a content dispute, so thus the matter needs to be taken to the talk page, so that the involved parties (and other editors) can discuss the changes, and come up with a consensus on whether to implement them or not. Is this not the way that we should properly handle content disputes? This is most likely something that needs to be discussed over at the article's talk page, as I do not se where any real administrator action is required. [&#124;Retro00064&#124;&#9742;talk&#124;&#x270D;contribs&#124;] 02:33, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There was no vandalism, things are cool now. GoodDay (talk) 02:37, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Legal threats at User talk:Skovalinsky
created her talk page imploring that Wikipedians "stop connecting the name 'SM Kovalinsky' with sock puppetry'. Skovalinsky proceeds to say that she was hired by some company in 2008 to write articles for clients and soon was banned. She threatens legal action if the supposed accusations of sockpuppetry persist. The sockmaster is . While this may simply be a WP:DENY matter, should anything be done about the legal threats? Goodvac (talk) 23:18, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Legal threats cannot be tolerated. The user must either withdraw the threat or face an indefinite block. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:32, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Even before seeing that I started a thread at Wikipedia talk:Sockpuppet investigations/Archives/Archive9 concerning this issue. While the legal threat is unacceptable, this is an actual problem which we should address.   Will Beback    talk    23:38, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this is more a case of not overlooking legal threats. I agree with Will's post at Wikipedia talk:Sockpuppet investigations/Archives/Archive9. Petrosianii is the older account, so it shouldn't be a big fuss to list him/her as the sockmaster. TN <b style="color:midnightblue; font-size:larger;">X</b> Man  23:54, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * All of the sock tags are changed now. User:Smkovalinsky still has a tag, but as a sock instead of a puppet master. Since the username belongs to a live person, and other factors, I could see deleting that page outright.   Will Beback    talk    00:14, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * This account claims to be a named living person, but provides no proof. This account has now posted the full name and address of that living person on their talk page, along with a lengthy rant about the purported misdeeds of another living person, again with no proof.  Every post above assumes that this poster is who they claim to be, but without a molecule of evidence that it's true.  The account should be blocked, their pages blanked, and the poster referred to OTRS.  Only OTRS can adequately verify their identity.  If this person is who they say they are, the OTRS volunteer can take the appropriate action; if they're not (if this is a joke, or a Joe Job) then we'll have done the right thing by removing the material that the real living person could, quite reasonably, find defamatory.   Either way, BLP applies to user and talk pages too, and new accounts that appear and declaim "I'm XYZ and I'm mad as hell" shouldn't blithely be taken at their word.  87.115.159.188 (talk) 01:13, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. How do we know you're really 87.115.159.188? You might also be spoofing. ;) If the user, real or otherwise, has further problems we can address them. I agree that blanking the two user and talk pages is reasonable, given all the circumstances.   Will Beback    talk    01:57, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd go with deleting the page as a possible outing attempt, and leaving a message advising the person to contact OTRS if they have a problem. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 03:11, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Repeated Socking and other baseless allegations by User AllahLovesYou
Please mind reviewing the activities of User AllahLovesYou, this User is very disruptive for nothing. He accused me of socking twice and his allegations were rejected here for the first time and here for the second time. Also when I asked this User to take a break he allegedly again accused me of abusing him as well as other editors here when this user's actions were not echoed by others then he resorted to sock puppetry accusations. Also, time and again this user identifies others by religion and not by user name. He keeps on calling me Shia though I have never said what's my religion? Humaliwalay (talk) 06:09, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * "Humaliwalay" translates to "I'm a Shia of Ali" in Indian languages. The word "Shia" translates to "Party" in Arabic language. Someone who creates such a user name wants to be proudly known as a Shia and I only mentioned this one time in the SPI which is ok when helping admins for investigation purposes, and I don't see why in such a circumstance mentioning this would be considered wrong?
 * I have not filed a single SPI on Humaliwaly. User:SyedNaqvi90 was using socks and was constantly reverting my edits at a time when Humaliwalay was also constantly reverting my edits in the same articles for the same reasons so there was lots of suspecions about them being the same person, and I filed that report on SyedNaqvi90.
 * While I'm improving articles, I wanted to share my opinion so I left a comment for the community to read at a talk page. Humaliwalay responded to that comment of mine by telling me "AllahLovesyou - You need some break, as you are talking in air without any logic." I think anyone can notice the rude tone in that, it's basically saying 'stfu you idiot, and go to hell'. I believe that such talk should not be tolerated in Wikipedia. Humaliwalay is reporting me everyday and filling my talk page with bogus warnings, etc. I told him this was annoying but he said too bad. I feel that Humaliwalay is obsessed with me in a negative way, he probably doesn't like me because I'm not a Shia, and anytime I leave a general comment to the community somewhere he thinks I'm writing to him. I constantly advise other editors to learn to accept everyone regardless of race, religion, belief, nationality, etc. That's how I grew up.--AllahLovesYou (talk) 08:52, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

HUMALIWALAY no where contains the word "Shia". "Shia" when translated in Urdu means "Dost" "Friend" No where in my User name is the word DOST. Now this User is translating my Username as per his convenience. This makes me feel that I am discriminated [So far I have never revealed my Religion] I don't think that's needed here. - Humaliwalay (talk) 14:04, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that whatever Humaliwalay or Hum Ali Walay translates to, it doesn't matter much anymore (unless there's some suggestion the name is offensive or used in a disparaging way). If it's true that it can be translated as 'I'm a Shia of Ali' then AllahLovesYou can be forgiven for thinking that Humaliwalay is Shia and happy or proud of it to be identified in that way. However now that Humaliwalay has stated they do not translate their name in that way, there's no reason why AllahLovesYou should continue to translate it that way and in particular if Humaliwalay has no desire to talk about their religion AllahLovesYou should stop talking about or referring to it. Nil Einne (talk) 15:14, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I didn't name Humaliwalay a Shia, instead I stated in a sockpuppet investigation "Both belong to the minority Shia sect of Islam" and that was needed to make the case strong. As I stated above, the word Shia is Arabic (not Urdu) and it translates to "Party" (not Dost). It refers to the party or followers of Ali (cousin and son inlaw of Islamic Prophet Muhammad). Hum Ali Walay can translate several ways, and one is "I'm of Ali's Party". User:Humaliwaly revealed his name on his user page as "Mohammad Sajjadali Rizvi", and any Muslim who is familiar with the name "Rizvi" knows that it belongs to Shias in the Indian subcontinent. Other editors who know or have knowledge about Humaliwalay stated in the SPI case:
 * User:Faizhaider: "I and User:HumAliwaley share same surname i.e. Rizvi are Indians and Shi'a"
 * Aliwiki: "Rizvi Sayyeds of India are wel-know in all Shia world like Ali Asghar Rizvi"
 * This is not descrimination. Majority editors in Wikipedia are non-Muslims, and if they mentioned somewhere about me belonging to Islam I don't think I will be rioting about it because anyone can clearly see this in my name, my user page and the articles I edit. Humaliwalay telling me this "AllahLovesyou - You need some break, as you are talking in air without any logic." is unacceptable in Wikipedia per incivility and personal attack.--AllahLovesYou (talk) 03:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Basing assertions about someone's faith on their name is not only discriminatory, it is illogical if one truly believes in a 'world religion' as I understand Islam claims to be. Or does one's name predetermine whether on can follow a particular faith? In any case, the fact that someone is Shia rather than Sunni is of no consequence to Wikipedia, I'd hope. I'm not sure of the exact quote, but doesn't the Qu'ran say something like "let us compete in good works"? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:10, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * AndyTheGrumo, I'm afraid you're mistaken. Me mentioning to an admin at Sockpuppet investigations/Faizhaider "Both belong to the minority Shia sect of Islam" is not discriminatory because I was only trying to convince the admin that both accounts were used by the same person. The editor whom I filed the SPI on (Faizhaider) has stated "I and User:HumAliwaley share same surname i.e. Rizvi are Indians and Shi'a". You can't be going around calling every time someone mentions someone's race, religion, or sect an act of descrimination. For example, when a black man robs a 7-Eleven store and later a witness tells police the robber was a black guy that is not descrimination.--AllahLovesYou (talk) 07:50, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, all participants for their just opinions. Now I hope the brother AllahLovesYou does not label me with any religion. I do not feel the necessity of Religion here. I am here to take what I do not know and to share what I know. I am a learner and want this to happen in acquaintance rather than sectarian division. I hope I won't be let feel discriminated henceforth. Thanks in anticipation to brother User AllahLovesYou. - Humaliwalay (talk) 07:14, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Humaliwalay, you're welcome. Just so you know I also belong to Sayyids, I have nothing against Shias, a people who I view as educated and progressing. But when it comes to religion, we all have different opinions so let's try not to force our opinions on everyone.--AllahLovesYou (talk) 07:59, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Personal attacks at User talk:Dylan Flaherty
With this edit by. I think it sets a record for most admins/editors attacked in a single posting, hitting, , , , and myself. Anarchangel has already been warned several times about making personal attacks, and here also appears to be trying to stir up trouble with an editor  who was recently topic-banned from Sarah Palin. Kelly hi! 21:01, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Undo, maybe RevDel, block, move on. That's uncalled for. <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;"> N419 BH  21:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think RevDel would be a good idea. Kelly  hi! 21:21, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've blanked the section for now per WP:NPA, and left a level 4im warning at Anarchangel's talk. I think this edit meets the WP:RD2 and WP:RD3 criterion for revdel as it's quite degrading. I don't have the requisite buttons though so someone else will have to make the final determination. <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;"> N419 BH  21:26, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

NPA blanking is appropriate, revdel is not, given the way that diff documents aspects of a long-term edit dispute. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 22:10, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I strongly disagree - those are personal attacks and there's no 'documenting aspects' of anything. It has no place anywhere on this project, and I've deleted the edit under WP:RD2. Krakatoa  Katie  22:17, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Katie - I see it's still in the history for the two subsequent revisions but I don't know if anything can be done about that. Kelly  hi! 22:18, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The next revision needs to be revdel'd as well, and my blanking might need to be revdeled as well to get it completely cleared from the public archive. <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;"> N419 BH  22:26, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, they are certainly personal attacks deserving NPA blanking and maybe blocking the poster, but per WP:CFRD which says "not 'ordinary' incivility, personal attacks or conduct accusations" (emphasis as in original), revdel is inappropriate. The message made a bunch of disparaging comments about the editorial judgment and personalities of various users and admins, and it included a bunch of links to various news articles (cnn.com, washingtonpost.com, etc.) which had apparently been proposed for inclusion in the Sarah Palin article but rejected by opponents, i.e. it documents a content dispute.  It did not contain any profanity, threats, wishes for anyone's personal misfortune, or anything like that.  It just called people things like "arrogant tool", "major timewaster", etc., which is what I'd consider "ordinary" incivility of the type WP:CFRD specifically says not to revdel.  So I think the revdel should be undone. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 23:04, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've undeleted it, as I didn't see that it rose above ordinary incivility. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 23:05, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Bad call, Sarek. That fully met the RD3 criteria, and to overturn another admin's actions without the slightest hint of discussion? In one edit we have grossly insulting four editors, and libelling a BLP. Courcelles 23:18, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It really, really didn't meet RD3. Nor are the BLP accusations of misconduct (with sources waved around, which may or may not substantiate them) obviously BLP violations when discussed on a talk page, never mind BLP violations warranted RD2 deletion. Rd232 talk 00:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

(ec)The post sets a record -- hitting BLP gross violations, including charges which would have to be instantly removed from any BLP, hitting NPA gross violation, and asserting that "every brain cell (I) have is turned towards evil" which rather reduces the amount of AGF I can provide the poster (heck - I am known for routinely opposing draconian punishments - which I would not feel obliged to oppose in such a case as this). Indef, I say. And mean it. BTW, it does, indeed, rise well above "ordinary incivility." Collect (talk) 23:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't know there was even a way to turn individual brain cells towards evil. Now of course I want to learn how to do it. ;-)  67.117.130.143 (talk) 02:46, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't care much if the comment is stricken or not. The main thing is to prevent such gross incivility in the future, and a block would be a good start.  I've been blocked for a hell of a lot less than calling other editors "evil" and "stupid".  By the way, Anarchangel wrote: "Thank the stars Ferrylodge gave up WP." Anarchangel, if you're watching, please visit my user page.  :-)Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:17, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't rev-del it. It's a silly rant that serves to illustrate the editor's true colors. If rev-del'd, the editor's attitude might be harder to discern. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:21, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Per Anythingyouwant, I'd support a 1 or 2 week block. Indef is excessive, as it is not a throwaway account.  67.117.130.143 (talk) 23:32, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Back to the RevDels: We seriously need to back off on RevDeleting personal attacks. Personal attacks only reflect badly on the attacker, and there needs to be a public record of these things so that people who are not admins are free to read and judge for themselves when commenting here.  This is twice in about a day that an ordinary, run-of-the-mill personal attack was deleted from the record, which is unacceptable.  This is a clear over-application of the RevDel policy, and needs to stop.  Because RevDel removes information so that non-admins cannot see it, it should be used VERY sparingly; overuse sets up a situation where non-admins are made to feel like second-class citizens, whose opinion doesn't matter.  For that reason alone, it shouldn't be used in cases like this.  -- Jayron  32  00:35, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Super-strength-family-size agree with Jayron32. Any trend to RevDeleting things which don't absolutely have to be RevDeleted (when blanking suffices, as here) should be stopped in its tracks. Rd232 talk 00:53, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree with not revdeleting this and with a much more sparing use of revdelete. It's useful to have this sort of thing on the record when an editor becomes a continuing problem. Revdelete should be saved for the kind of thing that really makes even an experienced and jaded editor's eyes pop out of his head. I've had some personal attacks made against me that I certainly don't want revdeleted, in case I ever have more trouble with the same editor and need to show the community what sort of discourse he favors. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 01:56, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * - Support - one week block, user needs to be aware comments such as that are personal attacks and will result in a removal of editing privileges, why some passing administrator hasn't seen the diff and just blocked for a week or so is hard to imagine. Off2riorob (talk) 01:21, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment JW responded at in reply to my query. Collect (talk) 01:51, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * JW is right. Anarchangel pulls this kind of personal attack all the time.  You can go to his/her talk page (not talk page archives) and see warning after warning after warning for personal attacks.  Anarchangel accuses one editor of "paranoid antii-UN fantasy", and says about another editor: "|here I just have to say something about the mental or moral competence of Biophys. One or the other is in critical shortage".  Now this, and still no block.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:03, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think "all the time" is overstated, but yes, those two PA's are there on the page. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 07:01, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * In light of this discussion I've blocked for one week with this proviso "Having reviewed the discussion and comments by various users, I have blocked you for one week. This block may be shortened if you give an unambiguous indication that you understand the reasons for it and won't engage in that type of abuse again. Alternatively, the block may be lengthened if your attitude is otherwise." Let's wait and see if the user clues up, adn then decide what to do.--Scott Mac 02:01, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, an indication like that would be most welcome from Anarchangel.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:16, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Good block, given the past PA history visible on the user talk page. I started to think 1 week was a bit much for a 1-time incident, but I see there's already been a build-up. 67.117.130.143 (talk) 02:46, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Drive-by tagging and false accusations of vandalism
Just now, User:THF reverted the removal of two tags from Charles G. Koch. This is problematic for two reasons:


 * 1) The tags claim there are WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE issues, but two editors have tried for 6 days to get THF to list any open issues and he has refused. This is an example of tendentious editing and a violation of WP:NPOVD. Essentially, he is abusing tags to permanently mark the article with a badge of shame.
 * 2) The edit comment reads "Reverted 1 edit by Dylan Flaherty (talk) identified as vandalism to last revision by MBMadmirer. using TW". This is an abuse of the Minor status, an abuse of Twinkle, and a violation of WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL and most likely WP:NPA. This is entirely unacceptable under any circumstances, as it insults me by calling me a vandal.

I would like this dealt with promptly. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  05:52, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * - Promptly? Its a template removing spat - Usually it is better at ANI in cases like this where there is no immediate issue that is desirous of administration, it is better to take a little time for a look at the overall situation, there is discussion on the talkpage but no consensus that I can see for Dylan's removal of the templates, and it's not as THF claimed, vandalism to remove templates without consensus, its closer to disruption. Off2riorob (talk) 06:07, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Rob has it right. If there's debate going on, the usual procedure is to leave the template in place until consensus is achieved; and reverting and re-reverting of potentially valid content is not "vandalism", it's edit-skirmishing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:11, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I think we're all agreed that it's not vandalism, which leaves the issue of THF calling me a vandal, twice. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  06:13, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, he should not have called your edits vandalism. Now, what do you want done?  -- Jayron  32  06:14, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I apologize for the misuse of the term "vandalism"; the correct characterization of the problem is slow-motion edit-warring. Four editors have added the tag, and Dylan persists in WP:IDHT and removing the tag in violation of WP:NPOVD. The extensive discussion on the talk-page demonstrates that there is not drive-by tagging by any stretch of the imagination; Dylan, however, several times a week, issues a demand that editors restate what has already been stated about problems with the article. THF (talk) 06:16, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, I'm removing the tag due to WP:NPOVD, which does not permit leaving a tag on indefinitely as a badge of shame. Now that you've apologized, you can redact your accusation. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  06:19, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Removal of maintenance templates is considered a type of vandalism (there are even warning templates especially for that issue), but yeah, this seems more like a content dispute and possible disruption by DF than a vandalism issue. It is bad form for Dylan to be removing the templates while the issues are being discussed, and I can see why the other editors' frustration level is rising. Kelly  hi! 06:17, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Kelly, please be careful not to misstate the facts. It is bad form to leave tags on for weeks at a time without any clear list of items to be corrected. Thank you for trying to help. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  06:24, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * This is actually the same type of WP:IDHT behavior that led to Dylan's recent topic ban from Sarah Palin. Kelly  hi! 06:20, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * See, now you're going from misstating facts to making inaccurate generalizations. Consider that multiple attempts over the span of days were made to get THF to provide a list of issues, and all of them have been resisted. Clearly, if anyone is guilty of WP:IDHT, it's THF, and perhaps you. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  06:29, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Please don't turn this into a personal thing, DF. Baseball Bugs is right on target. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 06:17, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If I accused you of vandalism and called for a topic ban, that would be impersonal, right? Think it through. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  06:29, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * - As a note, WP:NPOVD is a wiki essay and as such it can't be violated and is not an excuse to remove templates without consensus. Off2riorob (talk) 06:21, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what to say to that, as it has no bearing on this discussion. But thanks for trying to help. Next time, you might want to do some research first. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  06:30, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you unable to look up and see what you reported at this noticeboard just above, that, "This is an example of tendentious editing and a violation of WP:NPOVD." - as I said to you, it's only an essay.Off2riorob (talk) 06:44, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Let me add the DF was involved in a conversation about an edit war to remove a similar tag. Here is the evidence: User_talk:The_Four_Deuces where Magog the Ogre said: "There is no reason you should have been removing a tag placed on the article in good faith. Edit warring to do so is even worse. If you can't see the problem with that, then the problem is with you".  --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 06:26, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * LAEC is misrepresenting a separate incident -- one in which he (LAEC) was blocked for edit warring over a bias tag. He was attempting to use the tag as a bartering chip against talkpage consensus, and in bad faith. The quote from Magog was directed at TFD (who is not THF, though LAEC makes the switch below). LAEC's posts here are more examples of inappropriate piling on. - PrBeacon (talk) 07:12, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, "in good faith". Excellent catch, there. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  06:30, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, so we have an admitted WP:AGF violation now, too. Anyone who thinks that I haven't discussed the reasons for adding the tag should simply review the talk page.  Two other editors agreed with my assessment and readded the tag after Dylan edit-warred to remove the tag; others agreed with me on the talk-page.  The problem here is WP:EW and WP:IDHT and WP:BATTLE by Dylan.  He refuses to edit collaboratively, and wants to WP:OWN the page against consensus that his edits violate policy.  That he's brought his one-man editing dispute to ANI and wasting editors' valuable time with this is further disruption.  THF (talk) 06:39, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Please provide the diffs for bad faith. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 06:34, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Please don't ask for what is already provided. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  06:35, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You mean where he called you a vandal? He already apologized for that.  Is there any evidence besides that? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 06:40, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * An apology without a redaction is worthless. And, to be frank, it's not much of an apology, as it then falsely accuses me of edit-warring.
 * User:MBMadmirer is a big fan of Koch and has repeatedly brought up issues that he has with the article. Not everything he asked for was acceptable, but we've worked together to resolve the issues he's found. I mention this as a classic example of good faith editing.
 * MBMadmirer has joined me in asking THF to please list any open issues. We've tried for days now, with no effect. It's almost as if THF wants there to be uncorrected issues so that the tags remain indefinitely, as a badge of shame. I posted diffs of some of the more recent requests, as well a diff of the sort of evasive answers THF gives. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  06:45, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * THF says above, "Anyone who thinks that I haven't discussed the reasons for adding the tag should simply review the talk page. Two other editors agreed with my assessment and readded the tag....; others agreed with me on the talk-page." Is this not substantially accurate? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 06:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree: it's not substantially accurate. More accurately, THF is currently alone in claiming the tags belong, and he has been uncooperative in terms of offering any hint of what might induce him to join in the consensus against the tags. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  06:50, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * TFD, care to respond (if you are not on vacation yet)? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 06:52, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * LAEC, Dylan is lying:  . See also the talk page, where I repeatedly listed my concerns with the article, editors agreed with me, and Dylan then claimed that I hadn't justified the tag. His 06:50 claim demonstrates his WP:IDHT. He actually left a remark on my talk-page thinking that this ANI discussion vindicated him, which shows how far he just doesn't get it. THF (talk) 06:56, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you so much for proving that you are still unwilling to follow WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL or WP:NPA. Your argument ignores the diffs I posted, in which you are asked again and again and again to just post a list, and you have refused to do so. So, while I won't say you're lying, as that implies intent, I will certainly say that your argument is false. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  06:59, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I just read the Kock Talk page for the first time, I think. I see TFD raising substantive concerns numerous times, e.g., in "POV tag redux".  I'll have to agree with THF at this point. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 07:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

LEAC, then maybe you can help him out by doing what two of us have been asking him to do for days now. Take his "substantive concerns" and turn them into an actionable list. Until then, you'll have to pardon me for not taking that claim very seriously. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  07:04, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, you asked me several times to post a list after I posted a list on 12 December, and while I was on a business trip. I then responded by pointing you to multiple threads that remained unresolved, something I have done a second time in a new thread.  Your repeated demands that I repeatedly post a list that you then refuse to discuss is simply badgering harassment.  Your lie is your false claim at 06:50 that I was the only one who wanted the tag: multiple editors reverted your edit-warring to remove the tag, and I provided the diff.  Everyone here unanimously agrees that Dylan should drop this: admins, can someone close this disruption by Dylan or confirm that I don't need to waste time defending myself here? This is WP:CTDAPE when I have to spend hours on meta-conversations with vexatious accusations Dylan makes. THF (talk) 07:08, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm still waiting. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  07:18, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * DF, we are talking here about your removal of tags. You say he has provided no justification and applied them in bad faith.  I have determined that he has provided justification and apologized for the vandalism claim.  Game other.  The tags stay, per my understanding of the Magog the Ogre quote I gave above and for other reasons.  There is no additional hurdle TFD needs to jump to package them up into a list that you are demanding. Let's move on to addressing the issues raised. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 07:10, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * LAEC you're in no position to judge this situation. You misrepresented the quote above by implying that it was directed at Dylan. You (LAEC) were eventually blocked for that dispute over a tag. - PrBeacon (talk) 07:17, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Casting this as being about my removal of the badge of shame is a fine example of trying to boomerang this by blaming the victim. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  07:21, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, PrBeacon, I was banned for restoring a BIAS tag I placed that several people edit warred to remove. I learned my lesson. So I have direct experience here. DF is wrong to remove the tag in this case. I base that on the discussion we had and my reading of Koch and my previous experience on exactly this topic. I supported that with direct quotes for the blocking admin directed to the one removing the tag I placed. Now DF is removing the tag. I am providing him with the benefit of my experience. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 07:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Apparently there wasn't much benefit. You were blocked not banned. Then you continued to argue at the article's talkpage for several weeks. There are plenty of other more experienced editors who can judge the merits of this case, your presence here is more heat than light. It seems like you're only here to keep poking him. - PrBeacon (talk) 08:08, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You are spinning again. Yes, I was blocked, but as to your heat/light comment, the SPLC page to which I had added the BIAS tag because it looked like an SPLC advertisement turned out to be --- an advertisement.  Numerous cases of massive direct copying from the SPLC were identified by me.  Other problems of a lack of any criticism have been identified and addressed by numerous other editors.  The page is substantially better now as a direct result of my adding that BIAS tag.  I'm not poking--rather, I'm making effective changes and working with the community to make more. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 08:19, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, you are wrong again. The bias tag has nothing to do with copyvio problems, as others already told you. No one's adding criticism because of the tag dispute. Your continued attempts to take credit for current collaboration there are absurd. And rehashing it here is further disruption. If anything, it shows a parallel between the two cases, not the disconnect you keep repeating. - PrBeacon (talk) 08:41, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You are spinning again. The page looked like and was an advertisement.  I added a BIAS tag for that reason.  True, there was a better tag to add.  But the purpose and the end result were the same and the page is vastly improved. I take credit because if you look at Talk you'll see others tried to do what I did for the same reasons and failed because of the buzzsaw of people protecting the advertisement.  I simply persisted and broke through.  As to disruption, you admitted on DF's Talk page that you are only writing here to spin me. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 08:48, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Repeating it over & over doesn't make it true. And you don't get credit. I did not say I what you claim at his talkpage. I am challenging your baldface lies because no one else is. Perhaps it's time we take the issue to WQA because you can't keep accusing other editors of this crap. - PrBeacon (talk) 08:54, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Please do. It may be the only way to stop your spin machine that you wrote on Dylan's page you will continue to do until others join you.  In the meantime, I am signing off for the night and will not be able to respond to your spin further.  --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 08:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's your head that's spinning, because now you're just a broken record. What you see as 'spin' is what others are seeing as a collective reality -- which you've shown little regard for here or anywhere else. Apparently your book banning campaign spills over to other areas of censorship. - PrBeacon (talk) 09:06, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Waiting
I'm still waiting for this to be redacted. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  06:38, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Coming to ANI, starting vexatious threads, and making demands in a tone of righteous indignation is not going to go well. You'd do best to let this drop. -- Jayron  32  06:41, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Does that mean you'd be fine with my using WP:NPA as a justification for redacting his insults? <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  06:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, what I mean is walking away from the entire issue, taking a few days to let things cool off, and then approaching the discussion at the article talk page with a cool head is what you should do. This entire thread is nonproductive.  -- Jayron  32  06:54, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, and how many days do you usually take off when someone falsely accuses you of vandalism and won't redact it? <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  06:56, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It's never happened to me, which should tell you something about how I tend to interact with other users. I also don't make demands for other people to redact anything.  Things have never been said about me that I have felt need redacting.  -- Jayron  32  06:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds like you've lived a charmed life. Great for you, but I'm not sure if it's provided the perspective necessary to understand this situation. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  07:00, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Look, even if you have the "right" to have the statements redacted, (I don't say that you do, I am merely conceding it for the point I am about to make), it doesn't make you look better by demanding that right. It only makes you look petty.  If you want to come off looking better than people you are in conflict with, then don't act indignant and don't make demands.  In fact, you look best when you ignore perceived slights, and move on with things.  Even if you are in the "right" here (and I don't say that you are, I am merely conceding that you may be, just to make my point), then you overcome your own rightness by your behavior.  Being right becomes less important in the face of the way you are acting.  Eventually, people will stop coming to your defense even if they agree with you, solely because of the way you behave.  -- Jayron  32  07:07, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm having trouble parsing this. It sounds like you're suggesting that I should simply allow people to slander me and do nothing about it. But you can't be saying any such thing. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  07:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If what other say about you isn't true, it only reflects badly on them... -- Jayron  32  07:12, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, I don't believe that at all, and it doesn't matter what I believe because the rules are quite clear on this. He abused Twinkle, he was uncivil and launched personal attacks. He needs to be blocked and have his Twinkle removed. In my humble opinion, your refusal to do that reflects poorly upon you. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  07:16, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You have the rights to your opinions. It would not be the first time that someone has felt that I had done something which reflects poorly on myself.  -- Jayron  32  07:19, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * More importantly, I have the right to request that admins enforce the rules. I am asking that he be blocked and have his Twinkle removed. Are you refusing? <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  07:23, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * To do what you demand, merely because you demand it? If there is a consensus to sanction someone, via comments made by several editors, which indicate that someone deserves to be sanctioned, then admins will act.  Admins don't block people just because one person makes a demand, no matter how forceful the demand.  No, I will not block anyone because I don't see where there is any consensus among others that there needs to be a block.  -- Jayron  32  07:25, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This has nothing to do with my demand or with consensus. This is a straightforward enforcement of the rules you are sworn to uphold. Admins do block people because they personally noticed that the editor broke the rules. Are you now claiming you lack the authority to block him? <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  07:28, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I am saying that this conversation is going nowhere, and I am disengaging now. I can do no further good here.  Other admins will read this and come to their own conclusions on how to proceed.  Vaya con dios, Dylan Flaherty.  -- Jayron  32  07:32, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Dylan, you should be really careful about asking for a block, which would clearly be inappropriate here. Blocks are not punitive; per WP:BLOCK, they are preventative, to prevent disruptive editing. Like persisting in wasting editors' time with WP:TEDIOUS arguments after a consensus has developed against you, your edit-warring, and your WP:BATTLE tactics.  WP:BOOMERANG might just happen if you keep asking for a block--especially since you are unapologetic about your own unclean hands. THF (talk) 07:35, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I am, more than anything, reminded of how rape victims are treated on college campuses. They're told that pressing charges never works and will only make them look bad. In fact, the college just wants to hush things up so that it doesn't look bad. In the meantime, rapists escape to rape again. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  07:36, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed, WP:Battle and WP:Boomerang come to mind. Off2riorob (talk) 06:52, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I recall one time when I demanded an apology from a user. I don't do that anymore. It's about as likely to succeed as... as edit-warring. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:01, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * So far, I've been called a vandal and a liar. I fail to see why I should sit back and accept such treatment. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  07:03, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It's the price of fame. But if they call you an "upstart", then you've got something. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:04, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I would prefer a more serious response at this time, or none at all. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  07:05, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Note - Um, folks, with this edit here, Dylan has once again done something he has been told repeatedly no to do: refactor (in this case removing) the comment of another editor, LAEC. I'm tired of correcting him on it, so someone else should probably restore the comment... <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  07:36, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * AGF. That was not something I did; it was a merge error by Wikipedia. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  07:42, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Given the above, it's rather difficult to, especially since edit conflicts are in regards to two editors editing the same section, and there is usually(re, always), a notice that comes up speaking of said edit conflict. Given this was in a different section, it's difficult to see that happening. Further, if there was an edit conflict, it comes into question why you chose to let the comment be deleted.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus + <font color="Green">Contribs 07:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * LAEC restored it. It was there before your edit and it was gone after your edit.  And you are known for refactoring comments.  Sheesh... <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  07:52, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * DF's comment came at exactly one minute after LAEC's, so I can see an edit conflict happening, however, that does not explain why DF decided to not restore LAEC's comment, as as we all know, the Edit Conflict notice displays the new text and your text, showing you what was there, and giving you the chance to add in your edit again as well as the text of the person you came into conflict with.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus + <font color="Green">Contribs 07:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Please consider assuming good faith on the comment removal. It is a problem with the edit conflict handling part of the MediaWiki software, I believe. I had it happen to me once, and almost warned the user for it, but another user had already asked if it was an 'oops', and it was. Accedential comment removal can be easily mistaken as a bad-faith edit. If the user was adding a comment in seperate section from the removed comment in the same edit, then it may very well be an accendential removal, and not a bad-faith edit. [&#124;Retro00064&#124;&#9742;talk&#124;&#x270D;contribs&#124;] 07:59, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

@Daedalus969, from what I remember, I had come back and discovered that my comment had been accedentially removed. The problem can easily occur without the user even knowing that they accedentially removed the other user's comment, especially if the latter comment is in a seperate section or thread from the former (when it happened to me, the otheruser was editing in another thread. It happened right here at waaaaay-too-busy A.N.I., also). [&#124;Retro00064&#124;&#9742;talk&#124;&#x270D;contribs&#124;] 08:04, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This is something that has come up quite recently with Dylan, however. This isn't about failure to AGF on my part: he has a habit of removing the comments of others. <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  08:07, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright; I'll resume AGF'ing for now.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus + <font color="Green">Contribs 08:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the many edit conflicts, Doc. I got two edit conflicts when I posted my first comment, the second one containing Daedalus's comment. I continued with posating my original comment, and then did a seperate expansion in reply to Daedalus. When I then posted it, I noticed that there was no newline, so I fixed it. Then I noticed a typo, which I then corrected. I had no more edit conflicts in those 3 edits after my original comment. There was also another user who commented in the midst of my edits. They really need to add a feature to the MediaWiki software that shows whether someone else is currently editing or not (especially on a waaaaay-too-busy page, like here at A.N.I.). [&#124;Retro00064&#124;&#9742;talk&#124;&#x270D;contribs&#124;] 08:18, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, this sure is taking WP:BOOMERANG to new lengths! I have a solid track record of taking full credit or blame for what I actually do, as opposed to what happens due to bugs. The fact that even this is pounced on just goes to show how far the blame-the-victim mentality of bad faith pervades this page. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  08:21, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Consensus is against you, just drop it now. As to your track record, I wouldn't say that's entirely true, and you know exactly why.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus + <font color="Green">Contribs 08:26, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, I have no idea, but I'm not asking, either. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  09:04, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * @Dylan: I think you confuse WP:BOOMERANG with something else. Only an editor can "shoot themselves in the foot": it's not about the perception that others are doing it to you or "turning things around" on you.  You opened this report, and it is not going your way.  You can blame others, but this is a "boomerang"... <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  08:30, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Right, and what's happened here is that I walked in and was shot in the foot. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  09:04, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, that is not what that means. It means you walked in and shot yourself in the foot.  Really, just stop.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus + <font color="Green">Contribs 09:14, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Time to close this conversation
I think "Drive-by tagging and false accusations of vandalism" has proven to be false or has been apologized for. Perhaps someone should close this conversation. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 08:22, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Is it appropriate for LAEC to be asking for this closure? He has a dog in the fight. - PrBeacon (talk) 08:44, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it's wildly inappropriate, but this whole report has been mishandled from the start, so just let it go. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  08:47, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

But wait! Dylan just compared me to a serial rapist in his 07:36 comment. Does this mean I should hold ANI hostage for several hours and hector several administrators to take punitive action? Unlike him, I'm not here for WP:BATTLE and am now disengaging, but I do hope an admin eventually does something about his edit-warring and disruption and tendentious wikilawyering complaints. I'm not the first victim of his harassment; see also the frivolous WP:WQA complaint he made this week. Dylan has a very bad habit of provoking editors with WP:IDHT, and then throwing a disproportionate fit when they step a toe over an imaginary line, despite having been warned multiple times by multiple administrators that this is counterproductive. THF (talk) 08:28, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it should be clear to anyone that it is not accurate to suggest that I compared you to a rapist. I'm also not shocked that you're eager to close a report that is, as hard as it may be to believe, against you. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  08:35, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The report has been proven false, and one particular incident has been apologized for. Time to move on. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 08:50, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, no, that's not true. But thanks for trying. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  08:51, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Partly true, actually; it's time to drop the stick. You aren't going to get your demands.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus + <font color="Green">Contribs 08:57, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you saying that your report of THF's "drive-by tagging" is true? We know your report of being called a vandal is true, but THF apologized for that. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 08:54, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Nether of those are true, but for people who claim they want this dropped, you sure are verbose. It's obvious that the admins here are not going to follow their own rules. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  09:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Simply claiming something doesn't make it so; consensus is pretty obvious, and if you don't drop it, Dylan, it will surely boomerang on yourself.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus + <font color="Green">Contribs 09:04, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I love it when you threaten me. Never stop. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  09:07, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Dylan, claiming there is an "intentional boomeranging"" here again shows that you are not understanding what "boomerang" means. Or that blocks are not punitive.  Read the essays/guidelines/policies: don't make up your own interpretation of them. <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  09:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Might want to stop pushing your luck sometime soon, Dylan, before it bites back. Sooner or later, if you keep going, some admin is probably going to go rogue on you. And I mean that in the either the most threatening way possible or the least threatening way possible, whichever gets you to disengage. <b style="color:#009900;">Ks0stm</b> (T•C•G) 09:11, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Dylan, I didn't threaten you, I just told you what you were already told by an admin; drop it or something will happen. Do I really need to cite the diff, when it is so clearly posted above?— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus + <font color="Green">Contribs 09:13, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Still waiting
At this point, I've been falsely accused of edit-warring, vandalism, lying and removing other editor's words. Does anyone assume good faith? I know I certainly assumed the admins were acting in good faith, but they've collectively chosen to endorse this feeding frenzy by allowing THF to go unpunished. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  08:26, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

This isn't going to stop unless something is done,
Per the above; this user has been told several times now to stop beating the dead horse, but they continue drag it on and demand something they won't be given. Given they were already warned to stop, I believe they need a stern-er reminder.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus + <font color="Green">Contribs 08:28, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 08:31, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Disagree. -- This may surprise you, but I don't recommend blaming the victim. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  08:32, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The only blame that exists is the blame on yourself; only you are dragging this on with your demands, and there are only two ways to stop it; you do so voluntarily or you are made to do so.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus + <font color="Green">Contribs 08:35, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I would tend to Agree. This page is a "Dylan sandwich", with lengthy bookend threads devoted to him.  And now no one is assuming good faith here?  This is getting kind of obvious... <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  08:37, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Really now, this is ridiculous...I only read the bottom half third of this thread (so I don't even know what started this) and still got a good enough glimpse of Dylan refusing to lay off that I would agree with Daedalus here. <b style="color:#009900;">Ks0stm</b> (T•C•G) 09:01, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * What's ridiculous is that this thread has been dead since the admins refused to enforce the rules. I wrote "Still waiting" and walked away, only to find these people still talking, and mostly just talking trash. This will go away when they let it.
 * In any case, if you've only read the bottom half, then you're not in any position to comment. We have enough trouble here with hasty conclusions; let's not add to it. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  09:06, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Correction, you were told to drop the issue after you created the 'waiting' sub thread by several users and an admin or two; instead, you proceeded to create another thread on the exact same matter. That is not 'walking away'.  That is continuing to beat an already dead horse, a dead horse that by now is pretty much a smudge on the grass.— <font color="Green">Dæ <font color="Blue">dαlus + <font color="Green">Contribs 09:10, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not making hasty conclusions; I saw the dead horses you've left in your wake, so to speak, and had a large enough body count to make my own conclusions as to this point (I read starting at the bottom and moving up). <b style="color:#009900;">Ks0stm</b> (T•C•G) 09:14, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Alleged inappropriate use of rollback
I just had a reminder I sent to them about WP:NPA rather rudely reverted by Ryulong. Isn't rollback only supposed to be used for clear vandalism and not things like this? Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 08:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * And another one... this time removing their notice of this ANI report. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ryulong&curid=10736166&diff=402988351&oldid=402988332 Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 08:13, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe, but you invited his wrath by deleting his entry at WP:AIV, which was totally inappropriate. As I said on your alternative talk page, it is not your place or mine to decide whether an AIV entry is "stale", unless it's an entry you or I created ourselves. That decision is to be made by the admins. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:16, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Rollback can be used for other "problematic" edits, where the reason for having done is clear, such as was rolling back that unhelpful edit of yours. You've been told before, you don't understand enough about the policies here to be making edits like that. At least, you've shown little or no understanding of the policies. You're becoming disruptive again. If it carries on, you'll be blocked again. Gwen Gale (talk) 08:17, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * And how is informing them of this AN/I thread a "problematic" edit? Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 08:18, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Bart, you triggered this entire incident by removing someone else's AIV entry, which you had no business doing. Learn from it, and don't do it again. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:21, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The entry in question was over 2 hours old at the time, having not been replied to and no action taken on in that time. While other reports were being handled. Clearly it was stale and would have been removed anyway. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 08:24, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter if it was 2 weeks old. That page is for the admins to manage. Let them do their jobs in a way they deem appropriate in a given case. Don't mess with others' entries. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:28, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, you're lucky you got away with just getting yelled at by the user. I would have taken you straight here and asked for a block for disruption. Ryulong actually showed some restraint. I recommend you box up this section and be done with it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:23, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * (EC)I agree with Baseball Bugs, its no wonder why Ryulong left you some uncivil comments but Ryulong, please remain calm when making comments. Bidgee (talk) 08:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Editing one's user talk page is generally not subject to the general rules of the rest of the project, at least the last time I checked. And honestly, you're the only person to ever pick up on this and give a shit. Your track record, Barts1a, when it comes to the interpretations of Wikipedia policy are tenuous at best, which is what I told you in admittedly much harsher words on your user talk page in this comment and in this comment, neither of which are personal attacks as you believe they are.— Ryūlóng (<font color="Gold">竜龙 ) 08:19, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Second point here: "To revert edits in your own user space." Not a misuse of Rollback. <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  08:21, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you.— Ryūlóng (<font color="Gold">竜龙 ) 08:22, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've already had one Admin threatening to misuse their Sysop tools over removing comments from my own talk page. Bidgee (talk) 08:28, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I always like to point to WP:BLANKING. If this guideline segment is incorrect, then that should be clarified.  An editor in good standing can do what they want (within WP's rules) on their talk pages, I always thought. <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  08:37, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That is my thought also but I've pointed the involved Admin about the discussion in this thread/topic. Bidgee (talk) 08:47, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This diff is presented without context. This was the previous edit.  The "Cut it out" I would have thought was obviously in respect to the acions for which I had just wanred him? -  brenneman  10:05, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It's "actions", not "acions". It's "warned", not "wanred".  We try to sign our posts here, too.  Welcome back, Secret... <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  10:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Barts1a, I've asked you before, have you ever read a policy page here, or do you only try to, say, kind of copy what you think others are doing as you stumble along? Gwen Gale (talk) 08:23, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I have read the various policies of wikipedia and thought I was editing within them (With the report at AIV being over 2 hours old with nothing done and all). But clearly I wasn't Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 08:36, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Bart, this comment is totally off the mark. YOU CAUSED THIS INCIDENT. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:38, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps this is an opportune time to add something similar to my user talk page.— Ryūlóng (<font color="Gold">竜龙 ) 08:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't do something like that until you see how this turns out. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:48, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Baseball; regardless of who caused it: 1. It's my talk page and 2. Ryulong made the uncivil comments. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 08:41, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If you had not deleted the AIV stuff, which was more uncivil than anything he said to you, this would not have happened. You're starting to sound like the guy who killed his parents and then asked for the court's mercy because he was an orphan. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:42, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Regardless of what happened: It is still MY talk page! Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 08:45, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You do not "own" your talk page. If you want an editor not to post on your page anymore, you ask him politely. You don't post a so-and-so is prohibited banner. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:47, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It could be "Wabbit Season" for you after this. <font color="#000" size="2">Doc <font color="#999999">talk  08:51, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it's DUCK season and I insist that you fire! Whose Your Guy (talk) 09:02, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't be da foist time, Doc. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * "This doesn't look like Pismo Beach! I shoulda taken a left at Albacoicke!" <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  09:05, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought it was flood season? No wonder why people are trying to sand bag me! ;) Bidgee (talk) 09:07, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Nice photo, taken from a Bridgee over the Bidgee. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:13, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * "Like a Bidgee over troubled water..." Okay - I'll shut up now. To the rest of you: "Shut Up!  Shut Up!  I'll sue you!  I'll sue all of you!!!" Totally kidding, BTW, so don't try "reporting" me.  "Andy Kaufman and the wrestling match... yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah..." <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  10:29, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Too late, I've already indefinitively blockaded you. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:50, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Consider yourself sued "Mister Lawlor"! Duhhhh!  I'm from Hollywood: I've got the brains.  I'm not some dumb hick from Nashville, Tennessee!  You'll never see me again in Nashville!  I shall return!" <font color="#000" size="2">Doc  <font color="#999999">talk  11:05, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Enough joking. Is Barts1a allowed to keep this up, even if he no longer singles me out?— Ryūlóng (<font color="Gold">竜龙 ) 11:06, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It's essentially an "enemies list", and that is usually not allowed. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:40, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, it's a baiting list. I shall ask the user to remove it, but I believe we should remove it ourselves should he decline. S.G.(GH) ping! 11:43, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * While you're at it. Would you mind harassing this guy for having one as well? Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 11:45, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * "Please don't edit my page" is far more civil than "you'll be reverted on sight if you edit my page". Strange Passerby (talk • contribs) 11:49, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That's the normal practice, and if the user won't comply, then WQA can come into the picture. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:59, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * For both, it would be best to cite a specific rule violation before triggering another incident. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:47, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that such lists shouldn't be existing anywhere, it's like users setting up their own interaction bans. Leave it to ArbCom, and don't advertise it to each other as a bright red flag to a bull. S.G.(GH) ping! 11:49, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Normally a request not to edit one's talkpage serves as a disengagement notice, to de-escalate a situation. Barts1a's notice violates NPA, as it accuses people of stuff. Regardless of whether it is true (and in Ryulong's case I don't think it's justified), Barts1a should not have that on his page. The other guy is just requesting certain people not to edit his talk page, which is acceptable.  ALSO, Barts1a should know that while he can request another editor not edit his talkpage, he cannot enforce the request if the communication is reasonable (eg it's an ani notice which the other editor is required to give him). Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:17, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * List has been removed. Next time i'll just state who and not why... Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 12:21, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Barts1a
OK, I'm going to throw this out: Why are we putting up with this? Barts1a has already been blocked for disruptive editing in the past, and now he's at it again. He's inappropriately removed a report from AIV, he's brought a user here for using rollback on his own talk page, and he's made a shitlist on his talk page (removed now, but still). I think this guy should be shown the door for an appropriate period of time in accordance with previous blocks. I'd do it myself, but I'm about to go to sleep and I don't like making blocks I can't answer questions about. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 15:01, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Because he's enthusiastic, and it would feel like beating a puppy? Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:19, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, but however cute a puppy was, if it kept tearing things in your house to pieces, surely you'd restrain it. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 15:41, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Bart has actually been on wikipedia for a good stretch now, so the trouble he keeps getting himself into is a bit hard to figure - but it mostly seems to come down to ignoring the good advice he's gotten from quite a few users. My first brush with him was at AIV on November 29, in which he interposed himself into a complaint I made about the user "Lunalet" (who has since been sent to the phantom zone, but that's a side show). I advised him that he shouldn't be telling admins how to do their job, and that led to him posting a complaint here (sound familiar?) The current situation was right much mind-numbing: doing something way out of line, and then taking it to ANI when the editor became understandably livid about it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment. Barts1a said a couple of days ago that he was going to stop trying to be a wikipedia admin, and take photos for commons instead, which he seems to have done. If he would only contribute more to articles here, it would be much less problematic. Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:05, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I am in favor of blocking him for a long time. The benefits of his Huggling are overwhelmed by the disruption he causes and the amount of other peoples' time he wastes.  If I felt there was any chance that he was learning from past mistakes, and all of the advice he's been getting from lots of different people, I wouldn't feel this way.  But coming off a 1 week block, it only took him a few days to resume disrupting multiple places, and the problem is not only lack of knowledge, but lack of desire to learn.  I think there's enough evidence now that he is unwilling or unable to modify his behavior, that we really need to ask him to find somewhere else to spend his time.  This is simply not working out. If someone disagrees, now is the time to speak up, because I'm leaving, but if he's not blocked when I get back, and no one has given a good reason not to, I'm going to block him indefinitely. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:12, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Support block - Barts1a has been clearly disruptive in the past and now. His disruptive editing has caused us to be exhausted with our patience. So with that said, enough is enough. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:40, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Support block - the amount of energy that multiple editors have sunk in to trying to help Barts1a learn to edit collegially and within guidelines has crossed the line from "useful input" to "giant timesuck". I thought perhaps with time Barts would catch-on, however, given that his editing style shows zero sign of improvement despite the daily stream of advice and assistance of others, I now believe this editor and Wikipedia are simply incompatible. Barts1a can always request an unblock in the future should he have an epiphany and is able to commit to editing in a non-disruptive, non drama-mongering fashion. --<b style="color:Navy;">Jezebel's</b> Ponyo <sup style="color:Navy;">bons mots 17:57, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose draconian solution noting this is my consistent position, and one of the issues raised is not consistently applied, as Dylan Flaherty appears to have copied the these people are enemies of mine type of list. which, oddly enough, includes Bart1a.  If the "shitlist" is grounds for a block for one user, ought it not be grounds for another user? Collect (talk) 19:44, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The "shitlist" is merely the straw that broke the camel's back here. Barts1a has an extremely recent history of not having a fucking clue about what he's doing when it comes to various guidelines and policies.— Ryūlóng (<font color="Gold">竜龙 ) 19:55, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think "extremely recent history" is not entirely correct. A "continuous unabated history" is perhaps more accurate. --<b style="color:Navy;">Jezebel's</b> Ponyo <sup style="color:Navy;">bons mots 20:01, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Standard offer if he continues to do well on Commons. The amount of uncluefulness I've seen is blockworthy IMO; thses threads are a waste of time. / ƒETCH COMMS  /  21:52, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Support block for a reasonable period of time I am afraid. Barts seems to almost wilfully ignore advice and cannot resist the temptation to go around ticking people off, telling them what to do, scattering inappropriate templates around and removing other peoples edits. He also removes complaints/advice from his talkpage. I'd have more sympathy if there was a GF content issue but content does not really figure much in Barts career. Fainites barley scribs 22:37, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * With very narrow exceptions, there's otherwise no rule against deleting stuff from your user page, as it's assumed you've read it. Although in this case, I wonder if that's a safe assumption, since the advice he gets seems to go in one ear and out the other. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I know there's no rule against it but given his inablility to absorb and act on advice, despite his complaints page, it's a worry at how selective he is about what he does and does not keep.Fainites barley scribs 23:08, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This may sound crazy, but if the complaints and criticisms were posted on his "complaints and criticisms" page, maybe they would be better received. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:38, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Lengthy comment: Taking another look at Bart's history, I have to say that Ponyo is onto it. Bart created his account in October of 2006. It sat idle until June of 2007 when he made 4 edits. He then made 1 edit in August of 2008, and then 9 edits in February of 2009, including nominating himself for adminship. He was quickly persuaded to withdraw it, but it's clear he's had his eye on adminship almost from the get-go. He edited sporadically during the next 1 1/2 years until this past summer, in the June-July time frame, and has been pretty much full time since then. Now, the point of this megillah is that he's been on here off and on for 4 years, and has accelerated from valid corrections and vandal-hunting to where things are today. Around mid-November he nominated himself for the ArbCom, and proceeded to argue with the editor who had rightly told him that he didn't have enough mainspace edits, partly chiding the editor for being "unfriendly", when the editor was merely being factual. A pattern begins to emerge, and keep in mind that was just a month ago, and it seems longer somehow. Soon after, he began began escalating his "playing-admin" approach, which is when he and I first crossed paths and when he started attracting a lot of attention, especially during early December, when he managed to get himself blocked 3 times in the space of 5 days. I thought things were getting better after that, but then this outrageous, and frankly laughable situation today, where he deleted someone's AIV entry and then complained here when the user got mad at him for it, has really made me wonder. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment from the accused I do hope that people have watchlisted my talk page on commons because if this proposed block goes ahead; that will be the only place where I can post photos I have taken for articles. If nobody has my talkpage listed on commons and I am blocked indef here; there will be no point in taking photos as they will never get to be used! Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 22:46, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I strongly suggest you respond to the issues presented here rather than worrying about your photos not being used. A little explanation and apologies, along with changes in regard to the worrisome behavior expressed here, will go a long way toward resolving this thread favorably in your regard. <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;"> N419 BH  22:56, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I think he said something a week or two back about how everyone dislikes him or something. That completely misses the point. Nobody dislikes him. They dislike his approach to wikipedia. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:01, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that; just needed some time to formulate my response. Firstly I would like to show the diff that triggered this whole mess, the AIV report and it's removal. As you can see there were 16 revisions and 2 hours during which the report was neither commented on or acted on. I honestly beleived that it was a stale report and that I was acting within policy to remove it. I didn't realize I'd be getting a rather stubborn response from Ryulong for it. When I tried to communicate with him after he left this message on my talk page, I was rather rudely reverted which is what bought this here. I will admit that I didn't realize the rollback policy was way more lenient on use within userspace.
 * I would like to issue an apology to everyone involved in this dispute for wasting their valuable time putting up with my bulls**t over the past few months or so, I voluntarily forfeit my rollback and reviewer rights as clearly I do not deserve them at this time. I hope that I can redeem myself in your eyes. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 23:08, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll repeat here what I said on your talk page: You keep talking about "policy" at AIV. What policy? I looked at the AIV guidelines and didn't see anything that resembled "non-admins are free to remove reports they consider to be stale."
 * And adding here: And stop already with the apologies. Just stop doing stuff that admins are supposed to do. Article-correction and vandal-reporting are good things for editors to do. Just stay on this side of the line. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe that's part of the problem; there isn't one. When I say "policy" I mean the sum of the various policies as a whole. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 23:44, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As I have said on my user talk page; I think a good solution would be a page ban from the various noticeboards; this way I can still contribute positively to the encyclopedia while having a very good incentive to stay out of problematic areas. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 00:20, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You can impose your own "page ban" by simply taking those pages off your own watchlist. That's how I stayed out of trouble at the political pages, for example: I simply stopped seeing them. But I'm still curious to know, where did you get the idea it was appropriate to remove someone else's entry from AIV? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:29, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * See my talk page for a response to this question Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 00:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Support block. Well everyone makes mistakes sometimes, but he has gone a little too far. Block for a good amount of time, but not indefinite (maybe 6 months to 1 year). Or as an alternative, maybe we could try mentoring him? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:22, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose draconian solution - If we had a rule against hit lists, then it would presumably apply to those kept by admins. This looks like selective enforcement of a non-rule to cover for general irritation. I am not Bart's #1 fan, and it's rare to see Collect and I agreeing on, well, anything, so take this as a hint that perhaps the feeding frenzy here is wildly inappropriate. Do not block. <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Dylan <font size=3 color=#007f00 face="Script MT Bold, cursive">Flaherty  00:45, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * O_O I honestly did not expect that! Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 00:52, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Barts1a and I appear to have come to an agreement; even though I was one of the people above with a pitchfork and torch, if it's OK I'd like to give this a chance to work. Unfortunately, I'm logging off for the night, but I'll check in tomorrow morning. Although I guess I can't call dibs on how things are worded, I would appreciate it if people didn't decent en masse on his talk page with more ideas for other restrictions. Let's give this some breathing room. Only a request, though. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:41, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Since I'm not sure what editing restriction Floquenbeam is referring to, I will add here that I Reluctantly support block. I think it's clear that Barts1a has no ill intentions here - he's not operating with malicious intent, he truly wants to help the encyclopedia, and he's doing what he thinks is right - but trying to explain to him that how he's going about it isn't working is like talking to a brick wall. So many threads, here, on his talk page, and even on the ill-fated editor review he started after his last block expired, have all told him the same thing - slow down, pay attention, listen to what people are telling you - and he's just...not hearing it. I've tried to talk to him on IRC, with the same results. Every explanation someone tries to give is met with a "yeah, BUT..." and he just goes on doing what he thinks is right. I would very much like to see Barts1a redeemed, because I think he's capable of being quite useful to the project, but I simply see no evidence here (or have seen, in the past month) that he has any willingness (or perhaps ability) to actually absorb the incredibly important advice people are giving him. And unless he can give any indication that he intends to at least try to become less (unintentionally?) disruptive, rather than this pulling-into-his-shell "I'm sorry that everyone hates me" routine that he's giving today, I can't find any justification for letting him carry his blundering here. The only out I can see at this point is if he is willing to accept very restrictive mentoring, wherein he clears all his policy-based (or "policy"-based) edits with a mentor before making them, but he would need to fully and enthusiastically commit to such an agreement and not try to dance around the edges of what's allowed. I have a feeling that will be difficult for him, and thus I don't hold out a lot of hope for a mentorship solution. keɪɑtɪk flʌfi (talk) 01:01, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Editing restriction proposed and accepted

Barts1a's proposed restrictions

 * a topic ban from all noticeboards (I think it a good sign that you thought of this independently)
 * not using Huggle (I've gone back and seen several times you've reverted something as vandalism when it wasn't)
 * avoiding contentious articles and their talk pages
 * accepting a 1RR limit (ie you can only revert someone once in any dispute)

copied from my talk page, I have indicated that I will accept all of the above. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 01:10, 19 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm encouraged that Barts1a has agreed to these restrictions, but I do think that having a mentor would help him to stick to them, and I would recommend he find one. In the meantime, I think it's worth seeing how things work out, so I oppose the suggested block and support the editing restrictions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:18, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Support this over an indef. I would like to make the addition of
 * may appeal these restrictions at ANI(?) after [time period, maybe two or three months?]
 * any breach of these restrictions will result in an indef block with the standard offer


 * Does this sound reasonable? / ƒETCH COMMS  /  03:15, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, sounds reasonable, possible request for a degree of relaxation after ten weeks. Off2riorob (talk) 03:26, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see this tried - I keep hoping each time that Barts1a will finally modify his behaviour to avoid these problems, only to see that he hasn't. Maybe this one will work. If not, I guess we'll be out of alternatives. - Bilby (talk) 03:34, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Fetchcomm's proposal sounds very reasonable to me. 28bytes (talk) 03:41, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * And to me. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 04:11, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Support The fact that Barts has already agreed to this strongly encourages me. I would add that Barts should seek out a mentor to help guide his development as an editor. In particular, what defines a "contentious article"? A mentor will be able to help him make that determination, and a second set of eyes will help put out any embers before they become fires. <span style="font-size:smaller;font-family:'arial bold',sans-serif;border:1px solid Black;"> N419 BH  09:41, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Support these restrictions (and, that being the case, Oppose a block) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 09:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC)