Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive728

Disruptive editing by User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz
This user has been consistantly editing entries I have made on a number of pages and has made no attempt to engage with me directly to address any concerns he may have about the fact based information I am adding. I believe a disturbing pattern of behaviour has emerged here and indeed his talk page provides examples of other complaints against his disruptive behaviour. Here are examples of his disruptive edits: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Criticism_of_the_Food_and_Drug_Administration&diff=prev&oldid=461335026 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Irish_Blood_Transfusion_Service&diff=prev&oldid=461125594 I request that this user be investigated. Many Thanks.
 * This must be a request by or on behalf of . If was stuck in here properly it's from around 17 November 2011 and hasn't gained any traction. BTW, I do understand the editor's impatience, waiting for Hullaballoo to explain themselves on the talk page of Criticism of the Food and Drug Administration--but that's not really a matter for administrators right now. Drmies (talk) 03:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Vituzzu vs Spam
Hello,

I would like to bring to your attention a problem with an Italian Administator, Vituzzu : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Vituzzu

He is keeping deleting all posts made by a group of sport fans who contact sport fanatics asking them if they are interested in an international forum about Olympic sports (completely non profit and totally free) that is absolutely not a Wikipedia's competitor.

He considers it spam and we don't, anyway even if whole Wikipedia considers it too, this doesn't justify what he started doing for some days.

As you can see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Biodin#Vietnam he started telling users that they will be FORCED to SPAM the forum on wikipedia.

That's absolutely false and that's a heavy damage against the forum.

Contact single users asking them if they would be interested in the forum could be considered spam (at least for Vituzzu) but that's a defamation and we really hope some decisions will be taken about that to stop him with his actions to damage Totallympics reputation.

Hope to receive good news.

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.161.224.5 (talk) 00:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * He's right. You're wrong. Stop. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 00:13, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Third opinion, just as you were informed here User talk:Smartse, please dont spam unsolicited material about your forum on Wikipedia.  He  iro  00:16, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You have been told countless times, by numerous different editors, that your contributions are spam and unwanted, yet you keep coming back under different account names and different IP addresses attempting to evade your various blocks. You know that sockpuppets aren't permitted on Wikipedia. Please desist. - David Biddulph (talk) 00:40, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * He considers it spam because it is spam. Spam is generally defined as the mass sending of unsolicited messages. Here's an idea: if you don't want your forum to be associated with spam on Wikipedia and among its editors, stop sending it out in unsolicited messages to masses of Wikipedia editors. WilliamH (talk) 01:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have blacklisted the domain on the English Wikipedia per the long term abuse. WilliamH (talk) 01:36, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And the boomerang spins on round and round...I see the D-word (defamation) in that OP too. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:20, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, these domains were blacklisted globally a few months ago. It's still a WP:BOOMERANG as these posts will be used as reasons to summarily reject any future delisting requests. MER-C 10:40, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to find out why the fact that he's an admin on the Italian Wikipedia makes it into the OP's rationale ... "welcome to the English Wikipedia". ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 10:43, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "Logic and reason, m'boy...logic and reason." I forget where I first saw that used in this ironic context...but it fits so well...in unfortunatly far too many places. - The Bushranger One ping only 11:31, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Here my rectification according Italian and international Law, by forcing I meant asking them regardless of anything, it was just a clear fault of me.--Vituzzu (talk) 12:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * FYI plus a lot of emails sent via Wikipedia and some legal threats to me and childish trolling... is getting quite boring...--Vituzzu (talk) 12:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow, I didn't expect that they would follow my advice and come here. If there's anyone around who can set up edit filters, can you create one to stop totallympics being added? AFAIK it's the only way to deal with spam once people stop posting it as actual links. (I'll post a request here too in a moment.) SmartSE (talk) 13:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually I can create a filter but this will probably bring our spammers to change target, to me we need a radical solution. --Vituzzu (talk) 14:06, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

You can do whatever you want as I'm not even the owner of the site, but you have already threaten to lock someone's email and internet connection and I'm still waiting for that. It was also interesting to see how these messages just disappeared few hours later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.33.125.137 (talk) 15:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Writing from a different provider? ROTFL. Tempo al tempo trolluzzo mio :D --Vituzzu (talk) 18:48, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

So should I be scared that my mail, provider and the forum will be closed as you promised ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.156.178.11 (talk) 20:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I spy, with my little eye, something that begins with "C"...oh, it's a WP:COMPETENCE issue. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

90.196.241.238
Does look familiar to anyone? They seem to me to be a returning nationalist POV warrior who's familiar with Vintagekits; they've been altering nationalities on British-related bios and have made the extraordinary claim that they're fighting a kind of war, and so are justified in edit-warring. They seem to believe that sufficient bluster will be a smokescreen for their activities. See my talkpage for a sample:, and. I've blocked them for a week for edit-warring with intent on Amir Khan. Full disclosure: I did revert once there, but self-reverted.  Acroterion   (talk)   19:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * See Sockpuppet investigations/PowerSane/Archive. -- zzuuzz (talk) 19:27, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I was pretty sure they were no stranger to SPI.  Acroterion   (talk)   04:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

legal threat
WP:LEGAL violation in this edit. Is he/she telling the truth? Wasbeer 04:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * IP blocked for 1 year per WP:NLT and the try-not-to-indef-IPs guideline. Up to others to determine the validity of the threat. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:01, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Given that some of the content they claim was "stolen from a legit website" is referenced, to multiple sources, I'm inclined to think it's likely not truthful (plus "legit website" is a somewhat...odd phrasing.) - The Bushranger One ping only 05:04, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Wasbeer 05:19, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz
This user has been consistantly editing entries I have made on a number of pages and has made no attempt to engage with me directly to address any concerns he may have about the fact based information I am adding. I believe a disturbing pattern of behaviour has emerged here and indeed his talk page provides examples of other complaints against his disruptive behaviour. Here are examples of his disruptive edits: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Criticism_of_the_Food_and_Drug_Administration&diff=prev&oldid=461335026 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Irish_Blood_Transfusion_Service&diff=prev&oldid=461125594 I request that this user be investigated. Many Thanks.
 * This must be a request by or on behalf of . If was stuck in here properly it's from around 17 November 2011 and hasn't gained any traction. BTW, I do understand the editor's impatience, waiting for Hullaballoo to explain themselves on the talk page of Criticism of the Food and Drug Administration--but that's not really a matter for administrators right now. Drmies (talk) 03:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Vituzzu vs Spam
Hello,

I would like to bring to your attention a problem with an Italian Administator, Vituzzu : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Vituzzu

He is keeping deleting all posts made by a group of sport fans who contact sport fanatics asking them if they are interested in an international forum about Olympic sports (completely non profit and totally free) that is absolutely not a Wikipedia's competitor.

He considers it spam and we don't, anyway even if whole Wikipedia considers it too, this doesn't justify what he started doing for some days.

As you can see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Biodin#Vietnam he started telling users that they will be FORCED to SPAM the forum on wikipedia.

That's absolutely false and that's a heavy damage against the forum.

Contact single users asking them if they would be interested in the forum could be considered spam (at least for Vituzzu) but that's a defamation and we really hope some decisions will be taken about that to stop him with his actions to damage Totallympics reputation.

Hope to receive good news.

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.161.224.5 (talk) 00:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * He's right. You're wrong. Stop. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 00:13, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Third opinion, just as you were informed here User talk:Smartse, please dont spam unsolicited material about your forum on Wikipedia.  He  iro  00:16, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You have been told countless times, by numerous different editors, that your contributions are spam and unwanted, yet you keep coming back under different account names and different IP addresses attempting to evade your various blocks. You know that sockpuppets aren't permitted on Wikipedia. Please desist. - David Biddulph (talk) 00:40, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * He considers it spam because it is spam. Spam is generally defined as the mass sending of unsolicited messages. Here's an idea: if you don't want your forum to be associated with spam on Wikipedia and among its editors, stop sending it out in unsolicited messages to masses of Wikipedia editors. WilliamH (talk) 01:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have blacklisted the domain on the English Wikipedia per the long term abuse. WilliamH (talk) 01:36, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And the boomerang spins on round and round...I see the D-word (defamation) in that OP too. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:20, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, these domains were blacklisted globally a few months ago. It's still a WP:BOOMERANG as these posts will be used as reasons to summarily reject any future delisting requests. MER-C 10:40, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to find out why the fact that he's an admin on the Italian Wikipedia makes it into the OP's rationale ... "welcome to the English Wikipedia". ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 10:43, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "Logic and reason, m'boy...logic and reason." I forget where I first saw that used in this ironic context...but it fits so well...in unfortunatly far too many places. - The Bushranger One ping only 11:31, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Here my rectification according Italian and international Law, by forcing I meant asking them regardless of anything, it was just a clear fault of me.--Vituzzu (talk) 12:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * FYI plus a lot of emails sent via Wikipedia and some legal threats to me and childish trolling... is getting quite boring...--Vituzzu (talk) 12:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow, I didn't expect that they would follow my advice and come here. If there's anyone around who can set up edit filters, can you create one to stop totallympics being added? AFAIK it's the only way to deal with spam once people stop posting it as actual links. (I'll post a request here too in a moment.) SmartSE (talk) 13:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually I can create a filter but this will probably bring our spammers to change target, to me we need a radical solution. --Vituzzu (talk) 14:06, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

You can do whatever you want as I'm not even the owner of the site, but you have already threaten to lock someone's email and internet connection and I'm still waiting for that. It was also interesting to see how these messages just disappeared few hours later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.33.125.137 (talk) 15:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Writing from a different provider? ROTFL. Tempo al tempo trolluzzo mio :D --Vituzzu (talk) 18:48, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

So should I be scared that my mail, provider and the forum will be closed as you promised ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.156.178.11 (talk) 20:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I spy, with my little eye, something that begins with "C"...oh, it's a WP:COMPETENCE issue. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

90.196.241.238
Does look familiar to anyone? They seem to me to be a returning nationalist POV warrior who's familiar with Vintagekits; they've been altering nationalities on British-related bios and have made the extraordinary claim that they're fighting a kind of war, and so are justified in edit-warring. They seem to believe that sufficient bluster will be a smokescreen for their activities. See my talkpage for a sample:, and. I've blocked them for a week for edit-warring with intent on Amir Khan. Full disclosure: I did revert once there, but self-reverted.  Acroterion   (talk)   19:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * See Sockpuppet investigations/PowerSane/Archive. -- zzuuzz (talk) 19:27, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I was pretty sure they were no stranger to SPI.  Acroterion   (talk)   04:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

legal threat
WP:LEGAL violation in this edit. Is he/she telling the truth? Wasbeer 04:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * IP blocked for 1 year per WP:NLT and the try-not-to-indef-IPs guideline. Up to others to determine the validity of the threat. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:01, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Given that some of the content they claim was "stolen from a legit website" is referenced, to multiple sources, I'm inclined to think it's likely not truthful (plus "legit website" is a somewhat...odd phrasing.) - The Bushranger One ping only 05:04, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Wasbeer 05:19, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit-warring as "method" for pushing article changes
The Chetniks article has recently seen two separate attempts to introduce changes to the article through coordinated edit-warring, in spite of active opposition on the talkpage. I cannot emphasize enough that the lede version being altered, and the section that was removed, are sourced thoroughly with numerous sources and stood in the article for literally several years. The changes also include POV blanking of sourced facts personally disagreeable to two users, and the misquoting of sources previously listed in the article. In other words, information was replaced with an opposed new draft, and the references that supported the (long-standing) previous version were simply moved to another piece of text they have little to do with (i.e. they were blatantly misquoted). The new draft proposal being introduced via edit-warring is actively opposed on the talkpage on the basis of bias through omission, as it ignores several sources (that were brought-up), and generally sports a pronounced POV.

Specifically: 1) an opposed draft of the lede has been introduced, with sourced text deleted, and 2) all long-standing (and fully sourced) mention of ethnic cleansing has been deleted through WP:SECTION BLANKING of the relevant article section. The two users edit-warring in concert to push these changes are User:Nuujinn (who writes the changes) and User:FkpCascais (who is acting as a sort of "enforcer"). It is important to note that the users, since they are in fact gaming the 3RR system, are no doubt hoping to have the article protected - with their version on top. I will also point out that while I also did revert the users, I was restoring the status quo version, and refrained from violations of WP:3RR at all times. I had been attempting to establish WP:BRD, and have no intention whatsoever of reverting them at all in the future.
 * 1. edit war to introduce opposed lede changes
 * Nuujinn
 * FkpCascais (final edit - lede altered)
 * 2. edit war to blank the Ethnic cleansing section
 * Nuujinn (original blanking)
 * FkpCascais   (final edit - section removed)

This is, of course, a classic method of pushing new opposed edits that exploits Wikipedia's own guidelines. Note the numerous benefits: two users keep restoring their new changes; if they are reverted then the user that reverted them can expect to be sanctioned also ("it takes two to edit-war") and will thus avoid reporting them, but if reported, their version is likely to get protected for good ("there is no wrong version") in spite of any sanctions (if any). If they are not reverted, then they're not really edit-warring to push their edits in the first place. Either way, the new changes find their way into the article, are there to stay, and they've successfully WP:GAMED THE SYSTEM. In my experience, it works almost every time. I am requesting that the edit be reverted, and the users be warned with regard to WP:BRD, in order to facilitate talkpage discussion. In the alternative, there is no point to any continuation of discussion when the users have twice now shown that they can basically do whatever they like. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 07:12, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it is really time for admin intervention against DIREKTOR who made an incredible number of exactly 80 reverts (check by yourselfs) on Chetniks article since the day he inserted the highly controversial disputed text with manipulated and descontextualised sources. I restored the text that User:Nuujinn a neutral editor with much experiance has created in order to archive balance but DIREKTOR reverted. Then I removed the exagerated unsourced claim and left with what is sourced, but DIREKTOR reverts that as well. We are in front of a highly biased editor who is doing his best to manipulate the article in a way one side POV is represented and boicoting all attempts many other users are doing to archive balance in this article. DIREKTOR already had his version changed during the mediation at Draža Mihailović article, and now is doing all the efforts to keep his highly biased version on this other related article. Btw, DIREKTOR has using highly uncivil behaviour at discussions including numerous ethnically motivated accusations to a number of editors. FkpCascais (talk) 07:50, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The lede is perfectly accurate and the statement you dispute is more thoroughly sourced than most on Wikipedia. The fact that it insults the "national honour" of a large number of right-wing-leaning Serbian users is another matter entirely. It stood for 3 years, and the fact that this was in spite of strong nationalism-inspired opposition, on an obscure Serbian history article, is if anything a testament to its accuracy and sourcing. Even if the utterly nonsensical "80 reverts" claim was anything more than your "estimate", taken as it is over a period three years it has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand. User:Nuujinn is a "neutral" editor only as far as you yourself are concerned. He is in fact part of your own pro-Chetnik group, and that is actually quite an easily demonstrable fact. His proposal is opposed on good grounds, but he is content to have the edit-warrior notified and has beem avoiding discussion for days npw.


 * It looks like this gang-edit-war might not receive the appropriate attention from the community. That would, without question, constitute a vindication of edit-warring as the appropriate tool for proposing new edits on the article at question. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 10:23, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Direktor, I often have some degree of sympathy for your position. The above statement just destroyed it. ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 10:36, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * (Sigh). I'm pretty well tied up right now finishing up house consolidation/improvement in RL right now, but any criticism of my actions or how they might have been better done is certainly welcome, either here or on my talk page. I'll have some time later today to catch up on what's happened in the last few days since I've been off line here. --Nuujinn (talk) 11:43, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

@Bwilkins. Well yes, I'm sorry Bwilkins, but are you aware how many issues like this which, in my most sincerest opinion, warrant at least some kind of mild intervention are simply ignored? If a group of editors can change the long-standing lede of an article without consensus, against opposition, and contrary to four or five cited sources, simply by edit-warring - then inaction on the part of the community is indeed vindication of their methods (in that article at least). What am I supposed to do? Real discussion isn't taking place, and cannot take place, because the users already have gotten their way and can simply dismiss objections from a position of strength. If I oppose their lede change, what other course of action is there other than to edit-war? And please do not say DR since we've long since established the value of that course in these obscure Balkans issues, or lack thereof.

The only thing that is required here, the only necessary measure, is a condemnation of edit-warring as a means of pushing new, opposed edits (WP:BRD). Its not even a matter of looking into the validity of said changes. I really am only trying to preserve discussion as a course of action on these articles. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 03:44, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that edit-warring should be sanctioned, as 80 counted reverts of DIREKTOR in one article is really a serious issue, specially having in mind that the same pattern of behavior is found in several other related articles. Discussion is taking place, and detailed discussions took place on the mediation. Some conclusions were archived, and related articles are being worked out.


 * The problem is that DIREKTOR is seing his highly biased version that he defended by all means in all these articles being replaced by correct interpretations of sources, thus all the panic now. A way to demonstrate this highly biased aproach by him can be confirmed by his insistent way of describing the issue purpously as "obscure". After all we are dealing with a major resistance movement in the entire region, that, yes, did had its difficulties troughout the war. But DIREKTOR seems unable to separate his personal feelings here... and that is a BIG problem, joined by his highly manipulative and rude manner of discussing these sensitive issues. A clear disruption in my view, but unfortunatelly and amazingly, DIREKTOR has been forgiven allways because of some strange reasons... FkpCascais (talk) 06:38, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposals by User:Shakinglord
A couple of weeks back, immediately prior to being blocked, this user placed merger proposal tags on the month articles relating to 1962, eg January 1962. There appears to be no interest in debating this nor any consensus to merge. Please would someone remove the tags? I could be said to have a conflict of interest as some of these articles were created by me. Deb (talk) 17:50, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Despite Shakinglord having suggested it, a merger doesn't appear to be a bad idea. More precisely, it seems like 1962 ought to simply transclude January 1962, February 1962, etc., instead of having that information duplicated in two pages. (In other words, leave the month articles alone but overhaul 1962). Bottom line, I'd suggest leaving the merger tags up... if no one else expresses an interest in a merger, they can be removed in due course. 28bytes (talk) 22:46, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * You mean, make the year article unmanageably long? I don't see how that's a good idea.  When is "in due course"?  Isn't it now? Deb (talk) 09:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Help:Merging states "If there is clear agreement with the proposal by consensus, or if there is silence [cite_note-1: The debate should be open for at least two weeks.], proceed with the merger." Using the magic of logic, if no proposal was ever made within the same 2 weeks, then remove the merge templates and consider it an abandoned proposal.  If 28bytes would like to initiate a fresh merge proposal, s/he can always re-add the templates and start a discussion on the talk page (unlike Shakinglord who failed to follow through on the proposal discussion).  Rgrds. --64.85.220.244 (talk) 12:38, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

IP hopper:Edit warring and refusal to cite edits
Not sure if this is where to bring this. On several music pages, including U2 and Bon Jovi, a number of IPs all geolocated to the Sao Paolo, Brazil area have repeatedly inserted uncited number changes as well as other material going on for well over a year now. Recently 187.101.19.219, 187.56.44.155, and 187.56.45.152 are the latest batch. They have never once replied to a talkpage communication or left an edit summary. Would it be possible to get semi-protections for the pages and possibly a range block for this IP range? According to this, the page has been semi-ed before because of this issue. I started this here earlier Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring, but no action has been taken and anyway they have now moved on to another IP. I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask for this, the other noticeboards in the menu at the top didnt seem applicable either. If there is a specific place to ask for this, point me there.  He  iro  07:50, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * They are still at it here and .  He  iro  09:10, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Both articles semi-d for now, guess this is fixed for now.  He  iro  11:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Sabeeel43
has been adding multiple pictures which he claims to be own work, and what looks like a lot of BLP violations to articles. There are a lot of edits in a short time, so I have placed a shortish block (72 hours) to check what's going on and to repair the damage. Some help in sorting this out would be appreciated, as it's a lot to go through. 09:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * At least one of the images is an obvious copyright violation and I've marked it for speedy deletion on commons. I strongly suspect the rest are too, but they're hard to track down, especially ones of Justin Bieber (there are just so many...). I'm pretty sure the information he is adding to articles, especially where he claims to be the manager of various artists including Bieber, is false. They are certainly unsourced and thus violate WP:BLP. Sparthorse (talk) 09:36, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree. He also adds his phone number in most of the edits where he claims to be the manager. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 09:44, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * On a second look, the quantity is not so bad, just a few articles. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 09:47, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that all of the controversial edits have been reverted. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 09:51, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not very good with Commons. Could someone who is a little more apt there go over his contributions? I susspect all of them are copyvios. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 09:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm working through them on commons but its slow going. Every one I've checked so far has been a copyright violation, I suspect they all are. Any help would be appreciated. Sparthorse (talk) 10:03, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I am not familiar with the administrative noticeboards at Commons but I think this user needs to be reported at the equivalent of Commons ANI. I think he will be uploading more of these files if left unchecked. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 10:22, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I've put up a notice on the commons admin noticeboard here. Thanks for the suggestion, Sparthorse (talk) 10:29, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for following up. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 10:39, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I upped the block here to indef. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 10:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This is a good idea. Thank you. Dr.K. <sup style="position:relative">λogos<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πraxis 10:39, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Crystal Cathedral
Reviewing the history of the Crystal Cathedral article for the past 24 hours (see here), there have been several brand new accounts editing this article. One generally does not see this kind of activity unless they are sockpuppets or meatpuppets, but it could be coincidental because of some recent activity involving the sale of the article's subject. I would request an admin to review this history to determine if the article should be semi-protected or if there is any connection among these new editors. Thanks, 72Dino (talk) 03:54, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't look at it, but does any of it look like vandalism or non constructive editing to you. JOJ  <sup style="color:#CC9900;">Hutton  04:03, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Nothing I would call vandalism, but there was a lot of changes to content that was settled upon on the talk page. The editing pattern just appeared odd and I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something with these editors. 72Dino (talk) 04:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I've gone through a bunch of the diffs and I don't see any vandalism or seriously tendentious editing. You are right that these seem to be new accounts and all, but if this brings new editors to the project then that's fine with me. Anyway, it is a good idea to keep your eye on it, of course. Good luck, Drmies (talk) 04:08, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I wanted to get a second set of experienced eyes on the activity. I will continue to monitor the account but you can consider this resolved.  72Dino (talk) 04:12, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

user:Delivernews and Operation Linda Nchi
There is somewhat of a dispute going on on the Operation Linda Nchi, a certain editor named user:Delivernews is trying to delete any information, sourced or unsourced, which contradicts claims made by the Kenyan regime, which is clearly POV. I have been trying to prevent major damage to the thread however I have been banned for edit warring once before so I am wary to do to much and thus would like to get some administrator involvement. The user typed in the comments by his edits: "I understand terrorist groups run propaganda and I hope the FBI is tracing all of you editing this as you are shoing signs of supporting a terrorist organization" - which I think is completely unacceptable and should immedietly be moderated since he is insulting everyone which disagrees with him as a terrorist or terrorist supporter and calling on them to be arrested. He has definetly decided not to act in a civil manner and I think there is little room for assuming good faith left. Administrators should get involved.Kermanshahi (talk) 21:42, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, as for a little of this users history, he recently vandalised casualty figures on the African Union Mission to Somalia, adding random low figures claiming the casualty figures on the articles were "propaganda," although this was later reverted because these were actualy the amounths of casualties acknowledged by AMISOM commanders.
 * The FBI comment doesn't rise to the level of a legal threat, but it is utterly unacceptable as a personal attack - I've warned him as such at his talk page. (Don't have time to assess further, other admins can decide what to do here.) - The Bushranger One ping only 22:18, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

AgentPolkaDot removing information from Occupy Cal
has been removing lots of information from Occupy Cal saying that it's unsourced, and a violation of the BLP policy, while most of it (as far as I can tell) is not about people, and sourced, though some is poorly sourced. At least two people have asked him to discuss it, and has been warned about edit warring and blanking pages on his talk page. An editor expressed the concern that he may be a sock of someone, as he knows very much about WP policies, despite being created today. Because checkuser isn't to be used for fishing we thought that ANI would be more appropriate. Pilif12p 23:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Someone filed this a few minutes before I did this. Pilif12p 23:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think what we have here is a bad case of WP:BITE, with me assuming good faith with that user. CheckUser might produce interesting results if we had a known master, but we don't.Jasper Deng (talk) 23:52, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Update: User blocked.Jasper Deng (talk) 23:54, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, not much choice really. The problem is that the material AgentPolkaDot was removing was poorly aourced, but it was sourced; and the identification of the policeman involved is also out there in reliable sources .  I'd suggest that if anyone's going to put the information back, though, it's sourced properly and inline.  Black Kite (t)   00:00, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Definitely not a new user, as the following accounts are ✅ as each other:



, and I have ramped AgentPolkaDot's block to indefinite. –MuZemike 01:05, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I've edited the article for WP:NPOV. It had a lot of charged words and repeated content.--v/r - TP 01:12, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * AgentPolkaDot is clearly not the oldest account, but it doesn't matter, really.Jasper Deng (talk) 01:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Block evasion
Blocked--v/r - TP 00:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC) The IP userUser_talk:202.3.77.183 got blocked for personal attacks and editwarring, but he is hopping IPs now to edit war. This is the second IP User_talk:202.3.77.205. In this diff he continued to editwar revert after being blocked on the previous IP (refer to article history). Though the article in question is now protected but the real issue was of personal attacks at different places including the AVI page and my talk page. Since he's already blocked does it call for a range block for block evasion? (he'll keep coming back otherwise with his personal attacks). --lTopGunl (talk) 23:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I WP:DUCK blocked the IP. The block will expire at the same time as the other IP's block.--v/r - TP 00:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thankyou. Expecting another hop though. --lTopGunl (talk) 01:46, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Mass of notablity violations in progress
Two days ago, (202084) 2004 SE56, an unnamed speck among untold thousands way out in space, was a redirect to a chart of thousands and thousands of such rocks. Today, along with thousands more, it has been made into an article. This mocks notablity guidelines and if allowed to stand will may be forever pointed to as proof that Wikipedia has no effective notablity standards. Every minute that goes by, the creator of this astroidette article creates more and more, yet no one has yet acted to stop him. He has no consensus to do this even from the astrology community, let alone the community at large. Please act now. Chrisrus (talk) 23:54, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * As an uninvolved administrator I have notified the user of this question and asked them to pause while the matter is discussed . &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 00:18, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * In summary, the issue seems to be whether articles such as (101223)_1998_SW62 satisfy the notability criterion. I have asked the Astronomy WikiProject to comment, as it seems they have been discussing this very issue very recently. There is even a proposed notability standard at Notability (astronomical objects). As an administrator, the first question in my mind is whether these articles would meet that proposed standard - opinions from editors familiar with that area would help.


 * There was a previous ANI thread at Administrators%27_noticeboard/Archive228 which did not seem to come to a clear outcome. In particular, there is a policy issue with this task and WP:MASSCREATION. I estimate that over 500 of these articles have been created in November, which certainly passes the limit beyond which prior approval is needed. But the main question for deciding that is going to be whether the topics are notable, so notability is the most productive issue for us to address. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 00:25, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Pretty sure that would fail the proposed notability standard so hard it would leave a crater. (Pun not necessarily intended.) But yes, the Astronomy WikiProject is aware of this and that's why our notability guideline is in the works. Also, please don't confuse astronomy with astrology. Thanks. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:22, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * As a participant at WikiProject Astronomy, it is my hope that the notability criteria up for review will reach some sort of accord on the matter. I agree that most of the minor planet articles do not satisfy WP:GNG and have little prospect of doing so any time soon. But I'm not sure that the creation of such articles is intended to mock said guidelines. The objects just seem to be a particular interest of a couple of editors. Regards, RJH (talk) 01:24, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * This editor has been creating thousands of these stubs for several years, and has been met with questions and opposition many times. WP:OUTCOMES only says that these objects can be included in list articles. The proposed notability guideline would clarify that. The consensus at WP:ASTRONOMY is that objects such as these are not notable enough for stand-alone articles, but also should not be deleted. Rather, their names should be redirected to the appropriate list. Right now the notability guideline is at RfC to be promoted to guideline. In terms of support, it has more than 2 to 1 support, with much of the objection over semantic quibbles. Some of the objectors do think that there should be articles for every object in the Universe, but that is not the consensus of the astronomy editors at WP:ASTRONOMY. I do not think this editor is creating these stubs as a way to make a point or to mock anybody. I think it is just a hobby for them. However, the editor has contradicted themselves a few times; in a conversation with me, he admitted that these objects were not notable, but justified their creation due to the lack of consensus to that point about notability. He is wrong to say that there is a consensus to keep them. With the creation of the notability guideline, a hard-work effort by the WP:ASTRONOMY community, it is better argued now that the consensus is that unless significant coverage (beyond a parameter listing in the JPL database) can be established, minor planets don't warrant a stand-alone article. Cheers, AstroCog (talk) 02:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What does the OP want administrators to do at this point? What are we supposed to delete, protect, or block?  -- Jayron  32  02:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, as an administrator I have already asked the person in question to pause. The next step is to let people comment here so that I can see if there is a consensus about the articles. Administrator tasks include more than just blocking, protecting, and deleting, we can also head things off before they get that far. So far there the opinion seems to be that the editor who has been creating the articles needs to stop and get consensus. But there is time to let more people comment before we worry about what the final administrative action will be. It will probably be some sort of admonition, but the content depends on what the outcome of the discussion is. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 03:02, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you on one point: Any editor has the power to "head things off before they get that far." Admins do not have special powers to force editors to stop doing things beyond the use of their tools, and their admonitions should not carry extra weight.  If established editors have already told him to stop, then the words of an administrator in this regard do not carry extra weight.  Admins are not empowered to be supereditors, and the things we administrators say do not mean anything more to any conflict than the things that any editor of sufficient experience and good standing do.  That's why other dispute resolution processes exist, and that's why this board has giant bold letters at the top telling users to use those processes.  -- Jayron  32  03:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A priori, we don't know whether other people have told him to stop, or whether the complaint is entirely frivolous. That's what I am looking to determine. It appears, so far, that the outcome might be an admonition to the editor to stop creating these articles (per WP:MASSCREATION) until a consensus in favor of them is obtained, at the risk of being blocked. That sort of warning is hard for a non-admin to give because they cannot actually perform the block. But the only way to tell whether that admonition is warranted is to ask others to comment. That sort of admonition does not address any underlying dispute about WP:N, and it does not prejudge the outcome, it just makes it possible for the matter to be addressed elsewhere. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 03:20, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Admins should not also unilaterally block for something like this; if an admin had a problem with behavior of this nature it should be discussed and decided by the community before blocking or otherwise using their tools. -- Jayron  32  03:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I am not sure what you mean by "unilateral". If someone is violating a community norm, like WP:MASSCREATION, and they are warned, then blocks are appropriate. But the first step is to find out whether the edits already have consensus. Again, the goal is not to decide the eventual outcome – it's just to get everyone to stop making disputed edits before a consensus is reached. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 12:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

It seems like I have to constantly justify myself about these articles to keep from getting run out of this place feeling like some kind of a bad person. I don't think all minor planets are notable. I do think they require articles nonetheless. I would be saying the exact same thing of railway stations, uninhabited islands, semi-professional soccer players, etc. I have always been a proponent of inclusion of articles, because I value verifiability, neutrality, and fact over notability standards. I believe that many notability standards are arbitrary to the point of harming this project. --Merovingian (T, C, L) 04:09, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That sounds a lot like you're saying that you know the article creations are not in accoradance with policy (which requires notability), but that you personally disagree with policy and therefore will keep making them. If this is the case I think you are clearly engaged in WP:POINT disruption. If you have a problem with having to justify your actions then stop making those actions. I'll make it easy for you: Stop creating articles about topics you know are non-notable, or I will have to apply sanctions. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information it is also not a Directory. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 04:13, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Are (202084) 2004 SE56 and the rest of these things notable enough to have an article? Absolutely not. They are rocks in the middle of nowhere. That’s all. Please have a look at this picture:. They are in the process with no consensus of creating an article for each of these bits of dust. And that won’t be all. Even though it is theoretically possible that these will be the end of them, reason dictates that for each of these there must be many more smaller ones that remain to be discovered, and, if these editors, this editor, has his way, all of them will have articles. They will be a large percentage of all the articles of all the articles on Wikipedia. What then will be said of Wikipedia’s Notability standards? If this is allowed, anyone can say “Oh, my uncle George doesn’t meet notability guidelines? (202084) 2004 SE56 has an article. Uncle George is much more notable than (202084) 2004 SE56. Or whatever. Anything is more notable than 202084) 2004 SE56. What could be less notable than (202084) 2004 SE56?  My left sock is more notable than 202084) 2004 SE56. The existence of the article (202084) 2004 SE56 mocks notability guidelines. I don’t think it’s reasonable to put the onus on me to prove that this meaningless speck of nothing in the middle of nowhere that has nothing to do with anything is not notable. Instead, I would like to ask that someone prove it is. What’s notable about it? What could possibly be less notable? If I tried to start an article about my little elementary school, it would not be allowed on notability grounds. Yet my elementary school was very important in the lives of thousands of people. (202084) 2004 SE56 has not and will never be significant in the life of anyone, will it now. Well maybe, but it’s highly unlikely. And if it does happen, we can always start an article then. Thousands of people would actually be interested in reading an article about my elementary school. No one will ever want to read almost any of these articles, it’s reasonable to assume. Please put forward an imaginable scenario in which someone will benefit from the existence of the article (202084) 2004 SE56. Finally, what is the point in making these articles? What ever for? No one cares, no one will read them. I can only speculate as to why they are being created. I just edited out my speculation. It doesn’t matter. The existence of these articles are so blatantly violated notability standards that investigating why they are being created is not necessary. I’m trying to anticipate arguments against my position, but I honestly can’t. That they are in orbit about the sun? So are many kajillion specks of dust. What other argument could there be? Their existence does no harm? We are being hit up for cash on the grounds that we need more servers, in part. We don’t need to waste it on a bunch of dust. More importantly, how could we ever reject an article on notability grounds with these articles standing as proof that we have no effective notability standards? The existence of these articles threatens the existence of notability standards on Wikipedia, that’s the harm. If these dust mote articles are allowed to stand, we will owe an apology to everyone who’s ever had an article deleted on notability grounds, because I can’t imagine any of them could have been less notable than (202084) 2004 SE56. Name me something which could possibly be less notable than (202084) 2004 SE56. Name one thing that someone has in good faith tried to add to Wikipedia that was rejected on notability grounds alone that was not more notable than (202084) 2004 SE56. Actually don’t bother. Don’t even argue; give it up, speedily agree and let’s move on. It’s absurd to argue that they meet notability standards. Instead, let’s talk about what we should do next. Actually, I'll leave that to you. Over and out. Chrisrus (talk) 04:28, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, if we allow this the next is someone entering in the phone directory. Likelihood is that there would be a greater percentage of actual notable articles there.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 04:34, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Chrisrus - please, take a glass of tea and a deep breath. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's too bad he quit because he was a productive, dedicated editor. It's very sad that he was not stopped long ago when he wouldn't have wasted so much effort.  Unfinished business includes a forensic investigation into possible failure of the notablity check system for new articles: if I didn't happen to have one of the redirect talk pages on my watchlist I never would have noticed, either; and it's a bit late and sad once someone has created a thousand new articles to notice that they are a bunch of rocks in the middle of nowhere. Is there some way this could be prevented in the future?
 * Having said that, however, I should apologize for my last edit, written to end all discussion of whether these things pass notablity guidelines. I had not noticed or anticipated that he would have a split second earlier actually admited in so many words that the referents of all those articles were not notable, rendering my work unnecessary.  If I had seen and read that post he snuck in before mine, I needn't have bothered. Chrisrus (talk) 06:50, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You needn't have written a truly nasty screed? No, you really needn't. Nice job running off a good faith editor. Lady  of  Shalott  07:14, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Please just study, just glance at Special:Contributions/Merovingian. Turn it on to "500", the max, and scroll back ten, fifteen, until you get some idea of what he refused time and again to stop doing.  This is what I have finally brought to an end, you're welcome.  While you're paging back through thousands of pages of shredding of Wikipedia's integrity, realize that it turns out he knew what he was doing and thumbing his nose at us all.  He refused time and time again to listen to reason or to do anything but stonewall.  This was no good faith editor. I've done my part to save Wikipedia from him, and am proud of it, and am finished here.  If you want to help, join the discussion below as to how to clean up his massive mess.  Good luck with that.  Chrisrus (talk) 07:37, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with LadyofShalott on this, Chrisrus. It seems like you've lost a little perspective on this issue. No offense intended, but you might want to take a little break yourself. Regards, RJH (talk) 16:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that all of these minor planet "articles" should be deleted. They are (tiny) stubs and will never become anything more than that. On the other hand we can't merge them into a list since such a list exists (it is the one Merovingian is using to write the "articles" from) - and merging them into a list would likely reproduce the entirety of that book and hence constitute a copyright violation. I do think it is a shame to have to undue someone's hard work like this - but I honestly think that they have noone but themselves to blame - having knowingly flouted our policies on article creation. They are wasting their own and the community's time, apparently mostly in order to make an ideological point. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 04:29, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Deleted? No, absolutely not. Redirected to the list? Yes, absolutely. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * But how can we make a list without it being a copyright infringement of the actual published list, that Merovingian has presumably been working from?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 05:12, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A simple list of "minor planets by designation, discovery date, and diameter" shoudn't be a problem, I'd think - and, in fact, one already exists. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Note that the information about minor planets is freely available from JPL and the IAU's minor planet center. I'm not clear that there is any sort of copyright dispute. A concern for me is not that the data is being replicated, but that it is not being maintained on the Wikipedia side. Any updates at the JPL site may not be reflected on the Wikipedia article, so it is likely that we have a bunch of obsolete data. Regards, RJH (talk) 06:21, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen it and am not a lawyer, but the "actual published list" probably doesn't have enough creative content to be protected by copyright, any more than the main part of a phone directory or a table of pipe dimensions (yes, that came up in a UK copyright case once). WP:Public_domain discusses. NebY (talk) 12:00, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree with redirecting. I see little value in a standalone article unless the object has been sufficiently studied to allow writing more encyclopedic things about it than can comfortably fit in a five column table. Kilopi (talk) 08:26, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * @Chrisrus - Was that previous histrionic diatribe really necessary? Sure, Merovingian may have flouted policy in a rather pointy way, but your rant basically rode the line of incivility. Your failure to assume good faith is reprehensible. --Blackmane (talk) 09:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sneeky! Why have you gone back and inserted this at this point?  If you'd put it at the bottom, it would have been very clear that, below, he was angry not at me but at being accused of POINT disruption, flouting policies, and mostly the fact that he saw that thousands of hours of his work were about to be reverted and he had no one but himself to blame.  Good faith was assumed on my part publically until after he'd quit, and by all until he admitted he knew that he was in gross violation of our standards and procedures but didn't think other people's opinions mattered so long as there was some way to stretch out debate forever.  Good faith and was only questioned quite rightly by Maunus, below, who pointedly asked how we could assume good faith given these facts.  Even if I'd said nothing, the two posts below which crushed him would have caused him to leave.  If someone had put it as I did long ago he wouldn't have wasted a chunk of his life.  Read on:  Chrisrus (talk) 13:15, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I am "clearly engaged in WP:POINT disruption"? I have "knowingly flouted [...] policies"? This is ridiculous. What happened to assumption of good faith? I have been patiently editing and trying to improve Wikipedia's coverage on minor planets for years. This did not just start. In the last few months the flak I have received for these edits has become unfair and unbearable. Why is there such a demand to limit what Wikipedia should be, instead of grow it? This is a public flogging and I will not accept it. I quit. --Merovingian (T, C, L) 04:51, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You are saying that you agree that these rocks are not notable yet you have created hundreds of articles about them because you disagree with the notability policy. If this is not a flouting of policy, and a classica case of WP:POINT, then please explain what it is? How can I assume good faith when you yourself state that you made a decision to violate policy? ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 05:02, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "I don't think all minor planets are notable. I do think they require articles nonetheless." Since notability is a requirement for something to have a Wikipedia article, then you have defeated your own argument, and I have to believe you're competent enough to realise that. So what else are we supposed to assume? - The Bushranger One ping only 05:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Topic Shift

 * I do not know User:Chrisrus's level of understanding of English, but if I were User talk:Merovingian, I'd have trouble understanding and comprehending an edit summary like this: "Plea no undo until repl on talk re why redirect just now returned to article again despite previous astronomical editor's consensus to chart". I get some of what he's trying to say, but not much.--v/r - TP 05:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It was enough for him to understand given his awareness of context.
 * This is what it meant:

"This is another plea from Chrisrus. Do not undo this edit (it was a revert to a redirect toward a list of minor planets) until you reply on the discussion page of the article (202084) 2004 SE56, (which was where the edit summary was made).  Explain why te redirect has just now been returned (by him) back to a full article despite the existence there on Talk:(202084) 2004 SE56 a long-standing conversation in which a person calling himself "an astronomical editor" declared that there had been a consensus to convert all of such articles to reverts to the chart."
 * This all in the space alloted by the editsummary box.Chrisrus (talk) 06:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The summary box is limited for a reason - it is not meant to be an exhaustive explanation of the reasoning behind edits, that's what a talkpage is for. GiantSnowman 16:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know. He was ignoring it.  You'll see I said the same thing on the talk page. He was just reverting redirect to article without addressing the points.  Chrisrus (talk) 16:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Close thread?
If Merovingian has decided to take a wikibreak in response to this thread then it seems like no admin action will be needed, and we can close the thread. There is an RFC at Notability (astronomical objects) where the notability questions can be discussed, and editors at the Astronomy WikiProject can take care of redirecting these articles if there is consensus to do so.

Separately, I feel somewhat sad that this thread became so heated. I don't have any doubt that Merovingian was editing in good faith, although the article creations appear, at least based on the comments here, to be at odds with community ideals. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 12:35, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Forgive me if I am overstepping my bounds, but does the fact that Merovingian is an admin not concern anyone else? Purposely flaunting the rules seems rather unbecoming.  Rgrds. --64.85.220.244 (talk) 14:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Close it if you want, but open another to finish talking about how to clean up the mess. Chrisrus (talk) 15:08, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * If he's an Admin his time would have been better spent helping out on notice boards. I've had an article unprotect request waiting for 20 hours, presumably due to a lack of admin. resource. FWIW, I didn't read your earlier remarks other than a straightforward statement of concern and fully justified criticism. Leaky  Caldron  16:43, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * No, the fact he was an admin isn't a major concern. Admins, when creating content, are the same as everybody else, and there was zero abuse of the tools regardless of one's opinion on the articles he created, so his adminship or not is utterly irrelevant here. And there is no need whatsoever to open another discussion to "talk about how to clean up the mess" - that's already been discussed and generally agreed, those that fail ASTRO's new notability guideline will be redirected to the appropriate list. Request close please. - The Bushranger One ping only 17:34, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but before we close, but what will be done about all these articles: Special:Contributions/Merovingian? There was some talk that the astronomy editors would take that over, has that been agreed? What is the simplest way to undo them all? There are thousands. Chrisrus (talk) 19:05, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As I say, this isn't the place to discuss that, but the obvious answer would be to redirect them to the list articles. If there are thousands, you may be able to find someone who can do that automatically at WP:BOTREQ.  Black Kite (t)   19:20, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, then, it'll be WP:BOTREQ then, not the astonomy group. Given the context, it might be better if someone else started the thread there. Would you like to do the honors?  Just explain to them what we've decided here and make sure they understand, please. Chrisrus (talk) 20:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It would be nice if we could get a ruling from the astronomy group before approaching the bot group, don't you think? And please, this closure was a tad premature.  All we've done is stopped it getting worse.  We haven't put things right yet.  What about the Notablity noticeboard? Please either remove the closure marks or allow me to do so.  Chrisrus (talk) 02:40, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Questionable semi-protection of English Defense League
I have been around this article for a couple of years, most recently only to copy edit and revert vandalism. The article attracts its share of non-neutral contributors, ownership issues and inevitable arguments that flare from time to time. I noticed a semi-protection yesterday by Admin/CheckUser User:Tiptoety and discovered this brief exchange on their talk page conversation. I requested clarification but Tiptoety has been off-line for 24 hours. I raised a request at WP:RPP which was not responded to until I approached the active patroller directly. They declined to lift the semi-protection. This is simply an enquiry, not a request. There is no WP:SPI request. I need clarification on (a) the validity of the semi-protection by Tiptoety and (b) the justification for using "Persistent sock puppetery" as the stated reason when there appears to be no such evidence. The claimant has identified 2 IPs which each have only made a single edit – that is not persistent editing, much less persistent socking. Can the situation be reviewed to ensure that semi-protection is in line with policy and to ensure that unregistered users are not prevented from contributing to article space for no valid reason. Leaky Caldron  17:39, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm ... if those 2 IPs are the same editors (and remember, User:Tiptoety is a CheckUser, so he would actually know if they were socks of banned users if he had used his CU tools), then the semi may be reasonable; you'd really need to wait for a reply from him though. Black Kite (t)   19:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Tiptoety stated "Per the privacy policy, I can not link an IP address to a named user. That said, I went ahead and protected the article for a few days." So he's semi-protecting without evidence and using a plainly misleading reason by describing it as "persistent sock puppetry". I can think of hundreds of articles on my watchlist where I might suspected a SP at work. I wouldn't just expect a simple nod for any request I made. I don't agree with unregistered users but by policy we have them and by policy we should protect their rights. Leaky  Caldron  19:31, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * By which I assume he means that those IPs are one of more blocked users, but he's not mentioning the user's names per privacy. I assume that, but as I say you'd really have to ask him, us mere admins can't help with this one I'm afraid.  Black Kite (t)   19:34, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm with Black Kite here; absent of any other comments, it is pretty obvious that one can read between the lines. Tiptoety knows who the IP addresses are; his Checkuser will tell him that.  What he cannot do is tell you who it is (directly), but that does NOT prevent him from protecting the page to prevent disruption.  You can easily put two-and-two together here, even if he doesn't come out and say it, not because he doesn't have good evidence, but because Wikipedia's privacy policy prevents him from giving YOU that evidence.  -- Jayron  32  20:48, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * But you know as well as I do, that wikipedia policy doesn't and shouldn't use protections preemptively. Was there major disruption on that page? I didn't see anything that would result in a semi-protection. A few ip edits, even disruptive ones, has hardly been huge cause for alarm. Only when the vandalism and disruption is persistent or there is a major WP:BLP problem, does protection usually come into play. Although, to play the other side, semi-protection is not a major disruption for those who wish to edit. Anyone can create an account, and the 10 edit and three day rule, is hardly a major obstacle to get over in order to edit a semi-protected page. I'm sure Tiptoey had a good reason, and I would like to hear it, but until then, the semi-protection won't cause too much stress or harm to the project.-- JOJ <sup style="color:#CC9900;">Hutton  21:01, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it won't - so why remove it, since it won't? When it comes to IP vandalism and sockpuppetry, semi-protection is honestly pretty much the only recourse - dynamic IPs make blocking an exercise in fultility all too many times. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:22, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * So what about the Founding Principle that anyone can edit articles without registration? If SP was applied to every article where a couple of dubious edits turned up then that particular principle would be out the window. Leaky  Caldron  22:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

← Sorry for taking so long to respond, I have been rather busy at work these last few days. In regards to the protection, I can't nor will I really go into much further detail regarding the socking but I will say that CheckUser evidence assisted me in making the decision to protect the article. If another administrator disagrees with the protection, I have zero issues with it being removed; but remember I purposefully set it for only 3 days. Additionally, Leaky_caldron, I agree with you that preventing anonymous users from editing the project tends to be a violation of the founding pillars of this project and if you did a little digging would see I have performed thousands of unprotections on articles for that exact same reason. I ask that in this specific situation you trust that I am trying to do what is in the best interests of the project. Cheers, Tiptoety  talk 04:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Personal attack by Udibi
The user Udibi made a personal attack against me, and indirectly against all the users in discussion with him, by calling me "profoundly insane, misogynistic, revisionist, sick-fantasy" on Talk:Rape during the occupation of Germany. He also did the same on his talk page. Anonyma Madel 22:27, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, he said "You have the audacity to make such profoundly insane, misogynistic, revisionist, sick-fantasy statements". It's a bit uncivil, but certainly not a WP:NPA. Have you discussed this at WP:WQA? ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 22:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * ...and will you be notifying him of this thread, as required? ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 22:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, I did not discuss there.  Yes, I did notify him.  He was trying to imply that I am a Communist revisonist. --Anonyma Madel 22:37, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I don't find Udibi's comments much worse than yours. If you make comments as you did on his talk page along the lines of "your Feminist approach to the subject is inappropriate and can only serve to bring many Neo Nazi editors to Wikipedia" I think you should expect a robust response. My advice is for you to disengage from one another. 28bytes (talk) 22:50, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * My intent was not to imply that he knew he was doing anything to cause that. --Anonyma Madel 23:52, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If you go back and read my posts, I said that the article was problematic because it offers voice after voice of direct quotes justifying/diminishing the rapes (all from Men, save one from a Russian woman that contextualizes the rapes), yet does not offer one syllable of a single word from a single woman who had been subjected to rape. I then suggested one way in which the article could be improved by giving a more dry account of the issue initially, followed by the ample contextualization already provided in the article, and at some point including some women's/victim's voices.  In its current form the article is all contextualization.  I'm sorry, but that is simply not a valid, balanced, or academically acceptable way to handle rape.  The response by "Anonymiss Madchen" was to accuse me of abetting Neo-Nazis and, later, to directly state directly that the women were, likely, willing participants in their rape.  I don't see how my possibly implying that he might be a Communist Revisionist can hold a candle to that in terms of civility or anything else. I made valid, scholarly criticisms, to which I got a response that IS frankly off-the-handle and then this user has the gall to report me for civility.  If the two of us were to debate this on any university campus, he would be eaten alive for implying that my insistence that rape victims should have a voice abets Neo-Nazis and for his direct statement that rape victims were willing participants in their rape.  "Anonymiss Madchen" is fortunate that I am not as versed in the ways of Wikipedia as he - If I didn't have other real-world concerns I would have reported him.  If the Wikipedia community thinks that my position that women should be allowed a voice is somehow indefensible and/or that justifying rape is a valid and civil stance, then there really is no hope for this site ever to be taken seriously by academia.  If the Wikipedia community feels that saying the statement that rape victims "wanted it"  is "profoundly insane, misogynistic, revisionist, sick-fantasy" is somehow out of line, then the Wikipedia community has completely lost its moral compass.  If you'll note, I even stated that I felt "Anonymiss Madchen" was trying to behave as troll and egg me on.  This also means directly that I did not believe and was not calling the user himself any of those negative things (insane, misogynistic....).  It means that his completely unjustifiable position that women wanted to be raped is so over-the-top that I did not believe he himself could be sincere in making such a statement.  Many issues in this world are up for debate, however some simply are not.  Rape is never ok, never justifiable and defending/justifying rape and blaming the rape victim is most certainly never something that can reasonably be viewed as civil or rational.  It is absurd that I am now the one having to defend my position, civility, and my discussion posts against THAT. Udibi (talk) 00:46, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I did not say anywhere that women were willing particpants in their rape, which would be completely absurd. What I said was, which I am explaining for the third time, is that we should consider the fact that there were likely German women who had consentual sex with Russians and who would have reported being raped to the Nazis or their families because it was completely forbidden for them to interact with people who were considered subhuman.  I also told you, which is also stated by reliable sources cited in the article, that the Feminist approach is a-historical and incorrect for this issue.


 * There were millions of women who were raped by the Russians, and that is worth studying, remembering, and is certainly bad, however, the rape of German and Nazi women should absolutly not be seperated from the fact that they started a war against the Russians with the intent of exterminating them. This is also supported by sources in the article and by other editors.


 * I also consider your incorrect pronoun use to be a personal attack, just as your claim that I am trolling you. I absolutly do not think that women should be raped, as you claim above.  "that his completely unjustifiable position that women wanted to be raped"  That is blatan libel (personal attack) and I also wish to report it.


 * --Anonyma Madel 01:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "That is blatan[t] libel and I also wish to report it." - You might want to take a read of WP:NLT. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:21, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Psst... Anonyma Madel... I believe The Bushranger is subtly (or not so subtly) suggesting you redact and refactor the above comment, as making legal threats is a blockable offense until redacted. You can do so by using the strikeout tags ( some text ) around the text (since this is AN/I and you shouldn't remove comments after they have been responded to), then rewording it without the legal wording (such as libel). If not intended as such, it's still a good idea, as generally using such words will create such an interpretation. Best, R OBERT M FROM LI &#124; TK/CN  01:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Escuse me, but you wrote "I think we also need to consider whether this is not just a case of hundreds of thousands of German women getting lucky with their liberators". Getting Lucky??? Liberators??? Your accusation of libel is, again, over-the-top and litigious.  On my talk page you threaten me that if I do not offer you an apology, you will report me.  Report me?  Sorry, but this unnecessary drama is simply too much.  My interpretation is hardly libel and it would be more productive if you were to lay off trying to report anybody and everybody who takes a moment to call you on your striking statements.    I find it fascinating that you are obviously well-versed in Wikipedia, yet your account is relatively new.  A quick look at the history of your talk page shows that the entire history of your account is full of arguments and similar discussions to ours over these same issues.   You have a history of reporting and complaining about people who disagree with you - it's there in black and white.


 * Giving women a voice - ANY voice - is hardly in itself feminist! You are so eager to contextualize-away mass rape in Germany, but somehow you also have had arguments about the same issue with Red Army rapes in Poland.  Interesting...Then you come up with a claim to be an ethnically German woman living in America - as if that (true or not) were to give you some license to spread positions that are academically indefensible and report those who would dare say anything against your statements.Udibi (talk) 01:39, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, both participants of the dispute are too emotional to carefully read and understand each other's posts. I suggest to move this content dispute back to the article's talk page, although I don't think resorting to such terms as "insane", "libel" or "troll" is justified here. Please, avoid using the emotionally loaded words, because that is just a demonstration of the lack of arguments. @ Udibi's "I then suggested one way in which the article could be improved by giving a more dry account of the issue initially, followed by the ample contextualization already provided in the article...", we can discuss it on the talk page. However, before we started, could you please read the sources cited in the article, especially such reliable secondary sources as Grossman's, Heinemann's and Bos' articles?--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:38, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your move to bring more civility to the discussion. However, the words "just a case of hundreds of thousands of German women getting lucky with their liberators" speak for themselves and can and must be condemned.  If I made it too personal, it is merely because of my shock, not because of my intent. If I crossed that line, I am sorry.  I do not know Anonymiss Madchen and cannot have anything against him/her personally, many of his/her statements, however, do warrant strong commentary.Udibi (talk) 01:51, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I've just blocked for one week for trolling, POV pushing and personal attacks - I've included example diffs on their talk page, and this report seems to be another example of their trolling. I've also reviewed 's conduct in that discussion and it seems OK - while several other editors don't agree with the comments Udibi is making, they're being made reasonably civilly. I would suggest to Udibi though that you should either ignore or report trolling rather than respond to it in the future as it leads to heated and fairly unproductive discussions. Nick-D (talk) 02:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Good block. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * This editor has a long history of disruption but has evaded censure by concentrating on articles which attract very little attention. Much of this has been directed against User:Paul Siebert who has not contributed to this discussion.  I hope that this block will persuade her to behave better in future.  TFD (talk) 03:13, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I had the same hope last time. I thought they had given up on this project as a soapbox. Drmies (talk) 03:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ha, this was the time before last time. Drmies (talk) 03:52, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As I noted at User talk:Anonymiss Madchen, I came close to applying an indefinite block here and it's likely that any further misbehaviour will lead to such a block. I've watchlisted their talk page. Nick-D (talk) 07:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * @Nick-D - I am still learning Wikipedia etiquette and procedures. I have a feeing, for example, that there is a way I am supposed to tag you with this question.  God forbid I should be in such a situation again, but just in case, how do I report trolling?  Thank you for your suggestions and insight.Udibi (talk) 03:28, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If another editor makes comments that are outrageously POV and clearly intended to provoke a response (like saying that German women deserved to be raped because of the conduct of the Nazis in Russia for example), then don't respond, just report it here, with a link to the diff of the trolling (and to this discussion if you can if its Anonymiss Madchen, someone with block him/her indefinitely). If in future you encounter an editor who is just randomly rude, try not responding - we seem to have a lot of otherwise very intelligent editors who are blighted by an inability to express themselves without cussing or snark, and one can sometimes still have a fruitful content discussion if one just ignores that aspect. If a discussion seems to be turning into a dispute, WP:DR contains advice on all the dispute resolution processes. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Editor removing others' comments at Talk:C. S. Lewis
Please see this removal by Yworo of another editor's comment in a discussion at Talk:C. S. Lewis. The underlying issue is how C. S. Lewis's nationality should be described, British or Irish. Lewis was born in Belfast in 1898, which is prior to 1921, which seems to qualify under some style guide for describing him as being born in Ireland (I haven't studied this carefully), but conducted most of his career in Britain. I've left two warnings for Yworo about removing others' comments from an article talk page, but cannot seem to get his attention. Yworo has removed other editors' comments twice from the article talk. Article talk pages are subject to the WP:Edit warring policy like any other page, plus Talk page guidelines, which I have to admit is a guideline not a policy. Advice on whether admins should formally caution Yworo would be welcome. EdJohnston (talk) 20:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I started a poll that clearly stated that it was a multiple proposal poll and that only support !votes were allowed. I consider that all editors who intentionally ignored these proposals to be intentionally disrupting the poll as presented. There have been claims that editors cannot construct a poll and then enforce the poll's formal form. I find that nowhere in policy. There have been claims that polls must allow oppose !votes. I also find that nowhere in policy. Maybe I'm wrong, but I personally feel that the multiple-proposal-support-vote-only-polls would be a much better way of weighing consensus than the current combination of endless discussion with support/oppose-polls than yield no clear result.


 * Also note, I started this poll before anyone brought up any policies which determined how C. S. Lewis should be described. Personally, I don't care if he is described as British, Irish, or even Martian. I do care about being able to conduct a poll as I describe it clearly in advance without it being disrupted by disruptive editors supported by admins without any policy basis for their actions. Voting "oppose" in a poll that specifically from the start excluded oppose votes is intentionally disruptive and talk page policy allows disruptive comments to be removed or moved to where they are no longer disruptive. Yworo (talk) 20:20, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment Really people, really? To EdJohnston, did you bring this up with Yworo and try to work this out before coming here? To Yworo, wouldn't it have been more suitable to simply move the comment/vote to the appropriate section, rather than simply removing it altogether. I haven't looked through the whole situation on the talk page, but a little more communication between the two of you would be desired, if this whatever you two are discussing is going to get worked out.-- JOJ <sup style="color:#CC9900;">Hutton  20:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I notified Yworo twice and asked him to restore the comments by other people which he removed. You don't see those requests now on his talk page because he immediately removed them. EdJohnston (talk) 21:27, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I removed once, I added subheadings the second time rather than removing. Both were reverted by . I've asked him on his talk page to support his actions with policy, but he seems unwilling or unable to do so. Yworo (talk) 20:37, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I looked through some of the revision history and the proposals on the talk page. I think I see what you were trying to do, and why you made those reversions. So I get it, "I" see your plan. Others may not have, but I don't think it was in the best interest of consensus to remove those comments, even if they were not the way t=you expected them to be. Those comments were made in good faith and it only appears that by removing those comments, (even if done in good faith on your part, which I believe), seemed to ultimately piss other people off, to put it bluntly. My advice to you is to be more careful in the future and maybe, if you ever create a poll like this in the future, add a section where other editors can express their displeasure at a particular proposal. Only my advice though, take it or leave it.-- JOJ <sup style="color:#CC9900;">Hutton  20:48, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * This poll/!vote thing about nationality and citizenship is a shambles. Attributes should be determined by policy, including WP:RS not by a straw pole of editors. Leaky  Caldron  20:42, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The poll was started before such policies were brought up. It any case, with UK nationalities, this question is sometimes left to consensus when there is no determining policy. When I started the poll, I believed we had one of those cases. Yworo (talk) 20:46, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * it's worth checking the full edit history. Yworo deleted two oppose votes to an option then edited the article directly arguing that option had the strongest support on the basis of two votes one of which was a one time Ip.  A review of his/her edit summaries is also instructive.  Lots of snarky comments.  It should also be noted that this took place AFTER the policies per style  sheets had been posted.  Some days after in fact so the above comment is shall we say, interesting.-- Snowded  TALK  21:19, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, I posted the poll first at 00:13, 16 November 2011. You posted the first comment about "policies per style sheet" under the heading "Standards" at 01:01, 16 November 2011, almost an hour later. Please retract your disinformation. Yworo (talk) 21:37, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The reference is not to your setting up the poll, but to your deleting two opposes to an option, then editing the article on the grounds that two remaining positive votes (one of which was a one time IP) represented a majority view. You did that after the policy guidelines were posted.  -- Snowded  TALK  10:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I also note that you have not at all addressed what policy gives you the right to override the stated conditions of a poll started by another user, as you did here, striking one of the stated conditions of the poll. Yworo (talk) 21:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Poll? Really?  What ever happened to verifiability and reliable sources?  What did Lewis call himself?  Until we have sources which verify that, the best thing is to say that he was born in Belfast and lived in the UK.  The Mark of the Beast (talk) 22:48, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The majority of reliable sources say "British". However, edit warriors kept changing this to Irish. Then all mention of nationality was removed. The article was originally based on reliable sources until a small handful of editors started to disrupt both the article and the talk page with the intent of changing this to Irish. There were a number of arguments for British, a number of arguments for Irish, there seemed to be no progress toward consensus. What's wrong with a poll in such an ambiguous circumstance? Yworo (talk) 23:22, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think an editor should be able to remove other editor comments from an article Talk page unless it falls within one of the stated guidelines or is otherwise removable for policy reasons. Although I have some sympathy for Yworo's frustration, essentially, he's saying that by starting the poll, he owns the topic and can therefore control it. That can't be right.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:50, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Why can't an editor own a section in order to administer a poll by stated rules? Other editors have the whole rest of the talk page to make other comments. WP:TALK says that disruptive posts may be removed under Removing harmful posts. By definition, an "oppose" vote where such votes have been disallowed by the definition of the poll are disruptive, thus they may be removed. It is not really possible to simply leave the comments, as they subvert the counting mechanism using ordered lists. Yworo (talk) 23:14, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ask yourself this: if you can remove oppose votes just because they're not part of your rules, what's to prevent your whole poll from being removed because it doesn't follow general talk page rules?
 * For that matter, what would the straw poll show, other than the most-preferred option? It would not demonstrate consensus to make a change; there'd then have to be discussion—open discussion, not just an up/down vote—on whether the option was supported by a consensus of editors. —C.Fred (talk) 23:21, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yworo, if you read the entire part under "Removing harmful posts," it clearly wasn't intended to extend to posts that don't follow your rules, which, apparently, is your interpretation of "harmful" in this context.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:46, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Polls do not violate talk page rules. WP:POLL allows polls, states they should be clearly defined, and also states they should not be changed during the poll. If talk page rules prevent specific types of polling, there is something wrong with the rules and they should be modified to clearly allow a defined polling process. At the moment, there is nothing that prohibits defining a specific polling method when staring a poll. Starting a poll is not disruptive, responding to the poll outside the poll's stated process is disruptive. That's the difference. Yworo (talk) 23:25, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Best guidance I can find is WP:Prune. In other words, don't delete other editor's stuff. Leaky  Caldron  23:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:POLL also points out a number of pitfalls with polls, including that they stifle discussion that builds consensus. I think this situation has turned into a poster child for that problem with polls. —C.Fred (talk) 23:38, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure polls have pitfalls, especially the support/oppose polls usually used. They are not, however, prohibited. Discussion had been going on for weeks without resolution. How's a poll going to make that worse? In any case, discussion continued in the section following the poll without stop after the poll was posted. Claiming it stifled discussion could only be made someone who hasn't actually read the talk page or observed the order that discussion, polling, discussion occurred in. Discussion was continuing unimpeded. Just more "Wikipedia dogma" being spewed without any actual thought applied. Yworo (talk) Yworo (talk) 23:50, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Discussions have been going on without resolution, in part, because there was an rfc that never got closed.--FormerIP (talk) 00:48, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * While I think Yworo set up the poll in good faith and that his removals represent a good-faith effort to keep order according to his concept, it's really not possible to conduct a poll on WP under those conditions, nor is anyone able to establish such ground rules and then enforce them by removing other editors' good-faith posts on article talk pages, and Yworo should not have done so. As I noted on the talkpage early on, such a poll isn't regarded as a valid means of arriving at a consensus. The RfC should be addressed; I was asked to look at it but did not feel comfortable doing so.  Acroterion   (talk)   01:00, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Clearly, polls are allowed. The ability to start different types of poll and have the polling process described is valuable and should not be eliminated just because some editors choose to ignore the stated process and make up their own rules. I will be taking this to both Wikipedia talk:Talk page guidelines and Wikipedia talk:Polling is not a substitute for discussion for modification to these policies to allow creation, monitoring and maintaining of polls by their originator without regard to other editor's disruptive tactics. Yworo (talk) 02:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * "Other editors" aren't being disruptive simply because they choose to disregard your "stated" self-imposed rule format; that's why this is here at AN/I.  Acroterion   (talk)   02:24, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * If it's impossible to have a specific type of poll, it's due to the disruption of intentionally rude editors. They should not have this power. It should be possible to start a specific type of poll without obviously intentional disruption. Yes, it's disruption, regardless of your opinion. Yworo (talk) 03:41, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You could suggest the parameters of a poll, but you don't have the authority to make such suggestions compulsory. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:45, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Which leaves polling at the mercy of the lowest common denominator, which is stupid. The rules need to be revised to allow an editor to run the type of poll they choose to help resolve conflicts. Allowing the rabble to turn every poll into a messy support/oppose poll is completely counter-productive, and the current rules were certainly not made to create this situation intentionally. Different types of polls suit differing situations. Making it impossible to define what type of poll is being held and enforce it is certainly not by intentional design. It's an accident, an oversight, and it should be corrected. Saying "too bad, that's the way it is", rather than acknowledging that it's a problem and working on modifying the rules to correct it is simply Ostrich-behaviour. If you only intent is to stick your head in the sand and pretend it's not a problem, don't bother commenting, it only makes you look dumb. Yworo (talk) 03:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You appear to be skating on progressively thinner ice. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:40, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You appear not be reading what I actually write and responding to something other than the thrust of my meaning, having a discussion with yourself about what you incorrectly think I mean.  I know how people currently interpret the "rules". I am saying that these rules have a detrimental effect on polling that wasn't intended to obtain by those writing said rules. Are you asserting otherwise, that the rules were intentionally made to prevent selection of polling type? Because if you aren't, you're not discussing the same topic I've been discussing. Yworo (talk) 04:43, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you say when you call wikipedia editors things like "the rabble" and "stupid" and "dumb". But I doubt it. Good luck changing the rules so that "not just anyone" can edit, including the "rabble". Meanwhile, here's the way it is: You cannot dictate things on a talk page or anywhere else. You can propose alternative ideas, and see if consensus supports those alternatives or whether other alternatives are suggested by others. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And this prevents selecting one of numerous polling styles that are useful for differing situations which arise. Nobody is saying that other editors can't express their opinions. They just should not be doing in in the middle of an established poll, but rather after the poll, in a subsequent section. When specific polling styles are used for elections, and somebody responds in the wrong way in the wrong place, this is rapidly corrected, buty apparently anyone can choose to disrupt a "show support only for multiple proposals" poll by adding an "oppose" vote in the middle of it. That in itself is dumb, and saying that's just the way it should be doesn't address the difficulty at all. Yworo (talk) 05:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, I'm done here. Feel free to continue to chat among yourselves, I'm unwatching AN/I. Such a time-waster. Yworo (talk) 06:48, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * When the going gets tough... ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:41, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yworo has now moved his vendetta on to Peter O'Toole since he cannot have his way on CS Lewis, and is now removing sources, claiming they are unreliable and calling the constructive work done by editor's on the article "vandalism", which is a lie in order to push his POV there as well, this is no longer edit warring on his part, it is transforming into vandalism, he has been warned enough times and he is ignoring us, admin intervention is needed. Sheodred (talk) 11:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

<<-- Looks like it's time to keep an eye on that guy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I now received a warning from SarekofVulcan, for posting a caution that he deemed inappropiate and excessive, which I strongly disagree with as the disruption caused is borderline IMO, and there has been no intervention with Yworo despite his "edits" (if you can call them edits) and personal attacks. Sheodred (talk) 14:59, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In words of one syllable - stop it. This is a content dispute, nothing Yworo is doing is vandalism.  Leaving vandalism templates on his page is unhelpful, and will get you into trouble.  Use dispute resolution for the content dispute, report him if he does actually vandalise something, edit war or whatever. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Very well, if that does not constitute as vandalism, it is the height of disruptive editing, and he has not been deterred at all yet, and why hasn't it? Sheodred (talk) 17:08, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's curious that after Elen's warning, and despite the fact that Yworo hasn't edited since early this morning, you felt the need to on his page from -1 to -2. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk)  17:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And to . -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:37, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * ... which I have closed as "no violation". Sheodred actually had a good point - but his actions are screwing up any form of credibility that he might have had ... let's not allow it to detract from Yworo's WP:REFACTOR and improper and unique rules for polls ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 17:51, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

User:JaMikePA
I don't think I'm putting this at the right place, AN confuses me. Anyway,, refuses to build consensus and would rather revert repeatedly. Recently, the Miami Marlins and and Toronto Blue Jays had a makeover of their logos and uniforms. As such the article for the two was updated. I updated the the colors using a graphic design industry trusted blog. Determined he was right he's revert me at least 20 times of the past 6 days saying blogs cannot be reliable sources and citing this failed proposal. As the blog is reliable, I and other have reverted him every time and asked him a couple times to stop and if disputes the reliability to start a discussion on the talk page. He hasn't, instead he's continued to revert and redo the colors. I would like someone to either tell him to stop or block him for disruptive edit warring. Thanks. <b style="font-family:sans-serif;text-shadow:2px 2px 2px #9eceee;color:#fd0;"> CRRays Head90  | We Believe!</b> 20:05, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi, you can try WP:AN3 - and be prepared with diffs of the revert war/3RR/edit war. Also be sure it is recent, and I'd suggest ensuring you did not engage in edit warring as well (ya know, the whole WP:BOOMERANG effect) - I haven't dug too deeply, but I haven't found a revert war in a very quick perusal. Regardless, AN3 may be the way to go if you have tried and cannot resolve this on the article's talk page(s). Best, R OBERT M FROM LI &#124; TK/CN  01:53, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Concerning the Toronto Blue Jays article, why do the colours even need to be cited with that blog? It seems entirely superfluous; as far as I see, that data is already appropriately sourced. WilliamH (talk) 03:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

CRRays, perhaps you should follow WP's rules by not using blogs as sources. I have every right to revert something b/c you fail to follow the rules. Stop using blogs! JaMikePA (talk) 19:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, the rules for WP:REVERT might not say exactly what you suggest. Yes, blogs are not WP:RS, but reversion is for vandalism ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 19:54, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think he's using the term "revert" Colloquially, and not in the terms that you and I have come to know as regular editors on wikipedia.-- JOJ <sup style="color:#CC9900;">Hutton  20:26, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Both editors are rather gaming the system and working to avoid violating 3RR. I've fully protected both pages and I remind them that page protection is not an endorsement of the current version, and that the onus on them to include their changes is establishing mutual agreement among editors. Since both pages are protected, blocking at this stage would only be punitive - the sooner consensus is established the better, and blocks would only delay this. WilliamH (talk) 23:04, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna ask now that those pages be unprotected. The full protection is disruptive to WikiProject Baseball and there are many league and team changes that need to be made to not just these, but all MLB pages, due to the winter league meetings and free agency.-- JOJ <sup style="color:#CC9900;">Hutton  23:29, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I'm not willing to withdraw full protection for an edit war incase it hinders constructive edits. Preemptiveness is no part of page protection, that's also why we do not protect pages for fear of unconstructive edits. Feel free to request uncontroversial changes via the established means. WilliamH (talk) 01:12, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Is full protection necessary for an edit war involving just two users?  both of them, then start handing out blocks if they prefer to continue a battle rather than hash it out on the talk pages. Resolute 01:44, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, this is overkill. See no reason to fully protect these pages. And there is no time table as well, since the protection is indefinite.-- JOJ <sup style="color:#CC9900;">Hutton  02:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I've lifted the protection per the two points raised here, remember that it can be lifted at any time, irrespective of how long it is set for. I would implore the two parties to not revert until they have discussed their proposed changes fully, because that'll probably cost them their editing rights the next time they do. My first inclination has been and always will be to see stuff upheld by consensus, not blocks. WilliamH (talk) 03:25, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm concerned this edit war is over, I'm done reverting him on this. I was being point-y and I apologize, however, I still think the other user at question was wrong for ignoring my requests for discussion on the talk page, if he had listened this wouldn't have happened. Then again it would have happened if I hadn't kept reverting either, so we're both wrong. From this point I hope the other user in question submits to consensus building on the talk page so we can put this to rest once and for all. Once again, I apologize for my behavior. One last thing, I request the other user quit citing that failed proposal since it officially has no barring on how Wikipedia is run. Thanks. <b style="font-family:sans-serif;text-shadow:2px 2px 2px #9eceee;color:#fd0;"> CRRays Head90  | We Believe!</b> 07:14, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Seriously, an indefinite full protection makes little sense. If it does need protection, a month-long semi seems to be called for.  –BuickCenturyDriver 08:59, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Both editors are autoconfirmed, so that would be inconsequential. WilliamH (talk) 20:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Proposed community ban of User:Shakinglord
(rescued from IncidentArchive727 at 12:43, 20 November 2011 (UTC))

Per this user's continued sockpuppet abuse and constant denial of it, I'm hereby proposing an indefinite ban. Calabe1992 03:32, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support per proposal. —<span style="font:bold 11px Arial;display:inline;border:#151B8D 1px solid;background-color:#FFFF00;padding:0 4px 0 4px;">Scheinwerfermann T&middot;C 05:26, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. It's better to make this official because that makes it easier for other editors to revert them and deny them attention. Hans Adler 18:55, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support Nothing really productive (e.g. article creation > vandalism-reversion) has ever came out of him.  HurricaneFan 25  18:57, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 *  Reluctant support - but the frankly bizzare behavior of this editor leads to the conclusion he's WP:NOTHERE and that Wikipedia is better off without him. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:12, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. Claims not to be a sock, but then admits. Curious statement about sharing a sock account with another user. Nothing sounds right here. Glrx (talk) 02:57, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support; they seem to be a net negative to wikipedia. bobrayner (talk) 11:30, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support: the less attention we give these individuals the better it is for everyone, including them. --NellieBlyMobile (talk) 04:30, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A little hasty methinks. Shakinglord only seems to have discovered the joy of drama relatively recently (pretty much a month ago today he started hanging around ANI), and up until then basically behaved himself. Leave it at indef and explain exactly what Shakinglord needs to do to get back into the community. As an aside, some of the above comments are pretty nasty, and people should remember that just because an editor is blocked that doesn't make him fair game for abuse. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:38, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree on the comments comment, but an editor who creates socks or allows "friends" to create accounts indistinguishible from socks - for the sole purpose of harassing himself, then claims he has no knowledge of them at AN/I and SPI, is somebody who is WP:NOTHERE. - The Bushranger One ping only 17:36, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 *  Support  Strong Support -- This user has exhausted our patience. Mohamed Aden Ighe (talk) 15:52, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Can an uninvolved admin close this please before the bot ignores the do-not-archive thing again? :) Thanks. - The Bushranger One ping only 19:16, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Archive avoidance: The Bushranger One ping only 14:38 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Threat against head of state
I just noticed against a sitting head-of-state, made from an IP address within that country. Personally, I don't think it's credible, but there it is. I seriously wonder what that editor was thinking, though, given reports from HRW et al concerning that particular country. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:41, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The prime-minister is not the head of state, but whatever. Just revert and ignore.--Atlan (talk) 16:04, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Another editor had blocked the IP in the meantime (well, I could have done that...). Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:VIOLENCE, which indicates that blocking the editor, and reporting them to the Foundation, is generally the preferable way to deal with such cases. John Carter (talk) 01:50, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

This IP has a long history of vandalism (iover three years). It seems like it's obviously a school IP but a whois doesn't show that it is. They've never been blocked as they usually vandalize with one to three edits then stop for about a week, making a block quite useless. Is there a common practice when dealing with such IPs?  Ol Yeller21 Talktome 20:19, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Given the low volume I think just reverting and moving on is easier than giving it a second thought. causa sui (talk) 23:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Robert Friedland white-washing
Someone calling themselves User:GlobalMM has been white-washing the biography of Robert Friedland. Freidland seems a modest guy, he calls his company Galactic Resources Ltd, so I can't think who would choose a username of GlobalMM... Anyway, the work of GlobalMM has made the article look like the shiniest CV of the greatest guy in the world.. Any mention of his ethical lapses - http://www.newint.org/columns/worldbeaters/2006/08/01/ - seems to be missing. Worth watching. - Leroule (talk) 20:30, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks like a resume. Why not revert the changes? causa sui (talk) 23:04, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I added a template and discussion about how the lead section should include a summary of the article's negative points. Right now it has only positive material. Binksternet (talk) 23:30, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Personal attack by Sswonk

 * [for completeness only]
 * [for completeness only]

At user talk:Sarah777 SSwonk made a statement that I considered to be highly inappropriate, so I gave a "formal warning" explaining why I felt that way (copied also to Sswonk's talk page). Perhaps this was over the top, and certainly Everclear has disagreed with my assessment. I disagree that it was, and would normally just continue to discuss it civilly so we could reach an agreement. If I had been presudaded that it was inappropriate, then I would have redacted and/or altered all or part of my statement. However, Sswonk's response to me (also at mine and his talk) was full of personal attacks, "I formally reject your authority, because you use it to stifle critics, prop up your ego and spread fantastic, poisonous lies about other editors", leaving me disinclined to reconsider my original statement.

I would like independent validation that Sswonk's comments were personal attacks, that they are and were inappropriate and either a civility block of Sswonk, or a statement noting that a block was considered but rejected that explains why it was rejected (this is not saying that I cannot see any justification for not blocking, quite the opposite, but if a block is not considered appropriate I feel it would benefit all parties to understand why). Additionally, I would like independent eyes on my original "formal warning" and feedback on it's appropriateness or otherwise. Thryduulf (talk) 14:57, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I posted the above at WP:WQA, where it was suggested that WP:AN/I would be the better venue, so here I am. I'll notify people about the venue change with my next edits. Thryduulf (talk) 15:27, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * (As the request includes a ban request, I asked Thryduulf to move the post here from WQA but he has requested my feedback).
 * Sswonk's comments are undoubtedly incivil but do not rise to the level requiring intervention. It is my understanding Sarah7777 is under arbcom ban and showed wisdom in passing on comment. I do think Sswonk's request to quote her was ill-advised but not "seriously inappropriate," and did not warrant a harshly worded "formal warning." Simply leaving it at "Sarah is to be commended for her actions in voluntarily consulting with her mentor and then taking his advice" would have been sufficient. I generally don't consider single posts to talk page "hounding." While I commend Thryduulf for being willing to speak up in the situation, the best response to inflammatory replies is to ignore them and move on. Gerardw (talk) 15:55, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment. Congratulations to Sarah for dodging a potential missile and behaving perfectly. Kittybrewster   &#9742;  15:55, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, well done to Sarah. Perhaps we could use this apparent storm in a teacup opportunity to relax her topic ban conditions as suggested on her talkpage by her mentor User:John. Off2riorob (talk) 15:57, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't imagine why someone at WQA said to bring it here ... blocks will not be handed out, based on what I see ... ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 16:00, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Imagination is not required as the discussion at WQA is available for review. Gerardw (talk) 16:09, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I am Evertype not Everclear, and I think it is ridiculous that Thryduulf has escalated this to an Administrators "Incident". I think he overreacted in the first place, and that he owes Sswonk an apology twice over now. -- Evertype·✆ 16:43, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Recommend both editors 'forgive & forget'. GoodDay (talk) 16:51, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * First I just want to echo Kitty above, I've been a critic of Sarah777's for a long while so kudos to her for doing the right thing in the midst of this. That siad I sympathize with Thryduulf - Sswonk is and has been using Sarah777's page as a forum for a while - sometimes to do the right thing (ie talk to Sarah and try to help her see another perspective) but obviously this time not to. A warning for that outburst was appropriate (maybe not a 'formal final warning' though) and a reminder that his reply is not acceptable either wouldn't go a miss either. This instance may not warrant a block this time, but this kind of behaviour is close to that territory-- Cailil  talk 16:55, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As yet another party to the discussion that's been the cause of this discussion, let me say that I think everyone involved in the conversation with Sarah777 (whom I don't know) was acting reasonably and in good faith. One user asked a genuine question - were there editors who found the current page title of Republic of Ireland fundamentally objectionable. There may be circumstances I'm not aware of that meant asking Sarah777 about it directly was unwise or even risked getting her into trouble, but as far as I can see nobody (whether Sswonk or Dmcq) was trying to so anything other than make sure that all views were fairly represented in the discussion about the page title. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 17:05, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with ComhairleContaeThirnanOg's assessment. -- Evertype·✆ 17:10, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

My only problem with this issue is that at user talk:Sarah777, Sswonk suggested that Sarah type "What Sswonk wrote is accurate, I am exceedingly unhappy with the title, and do not want to participate in discussions due to discomfort with the atmosphere". Sswonk should be well aware that Sarah is topic-banned from the page in question, so her non-participation is not due to any "discomfort with the atmosphere." That said, I've no problem with the first clause of his suggestion. Agree with Cailil and Kittybrewster above - fair play to Sarah. There's no need for a block here, that would just escalate things unnecessarily at WP:IECOLL. Let's close this and move on? <span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed; and also as regards Sarah's response. However, Sswonk's response is distinctly problematic (this one, which I suspect people have missed in the links above, because it's buried in the middle of the text). Starting with "here is a formal warning, you are a WP:DICK" is not a promising start, and "For someone of your caliber to become an administrator after only six months of work in 2005, and proceed to consider that license hold the views you do and lord over people who disagree with you is a severe insult to the intelligence of the populations of wiki editors and readers alike. I formally reject your authority, because you use it to stifle critics, prop up your ego and spread fantastic, poisonous lies about other editors." is something which, had I seen it at the time (stale now), I would probably have blocked for.  I would strongly suggest that Sswonk doesn't come out with that type of personal attack again.  Black Kite (t)   20:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Sswonk
This is over, as far as I am concerned. However, I want it made very clear that I am deeply insulted by Thryduulf's behavior and by some of the statements on this page. There is no excuse in society for a person under pretense of authority to act in a decisive way to defame another that they do not know without cause. From the article Defamation: Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. The original statements by Thryduulf were outlandish and defamatory, they were slander. That doesn't deserve backslapping nor sympathy, Cailil. Take a minute to view it from my perspective, read what this person I do not know, said to me out of the blue sky: "'I find that comment very close to seriously inappropriate behaviour. It gives the distinct impression of trying to put words in another user's mouth. It is clearly against the spirit of canvassing, and it smacks of trying to 'stir up trouble' (for possible want of a better phrase) by way of tempting Sarah to go against the advice of her mentor, possibly in the hope of getting her involved in a large and potentially uncivil discussion where consensus is not currently matching your views.'" Even though he has learned to cleverly throw in lawerly words like gives the impression and smacks of, it is nevertheless still defamatory. He seeks to directly accuse me of canvassing and stirring up trouble, tempting my friend to do something against her better judgement, and wanting her to get involved in a discussion I am "losing". All of that is a lie, what I did was ask her to respond in the affirmative on her page to something I had at that moment summarized and attributed to her. Nothing there is against the advice John gave, and I was seeking, as he does, to protect her from further trouble. I offered an example statement of the length and tone I felt would be appropriate, not the actual words to use. To call it "canvassing" still has me dumbfounded, I find that absurd. Not one thoughtful reading by a thoughtful person of what I wrote to Sarah should cause a person to defame me and accuse me of asking her to write something on IECOLL, or any of those other things. The amount of untruth within that series of words is breathtaking, even if an attempt was made to color it as speculation through use of escapes such as "smacks of". To find someone will "commend" this sort of thoughtless, rude and yes, defamatory behavior by administrators, as Gerardw commends Thryduulf, is troubling. And Black Kite, I won't disagree with a lot of what you wrote, but you misquoted me. If you are going to go through the process of participating in this sort of action, please be very sure you get the word right. It was "Thryduulf, consider this a formal warning: you are being a WP:DICK.", not as you wrote "...you are a WP:DICK". Also Black Kite if you were in a public space, say a newsstand, talking to a friend in plaintive tones asking for a minor act of assistance, a nod of agreement, and someone you did not know suddenly came up and accused you of gross misbehavior, of seeking to do her harm, of asking her to go against advice of other people and to go fight your battles for you, how then would you feel? If any of that were the case, you might not feel insulted or a need to tell the accuser off. If it were all untrue, I would like to see how you would react. I think that having that happen to you might cause you to tell the person they are wrong, and have no business making those accusations, and are in fact not deserving of any authority to do so.

To have the freedom and right to act anonymously and irresponsibly in public like that does not exist... unless it is on a web forum such as this, when the person doing so if he is told off can then run and complain to denizens of a forum such as AN/I. This is not reality, and your positions here are not deserved if you think defamation, and then making the vicitm of defamation feel a reaction to that is something he should feel bad about, are warranted. So, I am done telling you this is done. But I did not start the situation, and even though he deserves it I would never run to some star council and ask for action against Thryduulf. Just suffice to say, I am not swayed at all to believe that he was within any right to write what he did, which served to initiate lies and make insults. Think about that, Thryduulf, before you jump in anywhere else. Sswonk (talk) 03:45, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * If you don't want to have people tell you what you've done wrong, then it's probably best that you don't give them reason to - in this case trying for no apparent reason to get an editor to violate her topic ban. Whilst Thryduulf may have gone a little further than I would, he was effectively correct.  You said "This website is such a cesspool that a highly intelligent grown woman can't even speak her own mind.".  Well, first of all, no, she can't when she's topic-banned on that issue (and again, well done to Sarah for not doing so), and secondly, you probably need to read WP:FREESPEECH.  Also, your statement was utterly pointless; everyone who has ever edited on Ireland-related issues knows that Sarah disagrees with the RoI article title, and how difficult would it have been for you to dig through her previous contribs, rather than do what you did?  If you disagree with what someone has done or said, then there are ways and means of doing so, rather than rather speciously claiming defamation (which incidentally needs to be a deliberately false statement).  Throwing around insults is never a good idea; I note you're still accusing him of lying in this reply, and it would be a very good idea to stop now or take it to dispute resolution of some type.  Black Kite (t)   07:25, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

POV pushing on article Spartacus
Hi all, despite all the reasoning on the talk page the user User:ian.thomson has persisted in changing the WP:Style of the article Spartacus from BC/AD to BCE/CE.The article was created in 2001, and for the last ten years, with the exception of edit wars, the article has been BC/AD. User:Ian.thomson has been at the forefront of these edits and has put the message (see below) every time he has made this date change.


 * <!- THIS ARTICLE HAS 'BCE' FOR A LONG TIME, SPARTACUS IS UNCONNECTED TO CHRISTIANITY, DON'T SWITCH IT TO BC! ->


 * Point 1: other users have explained to him that this is NOT a valid reason to change the dating system. Even if BCE were to be used, Spartacus not being a christian has absolutely no influence in the matter at all.
 * Point 2: Ian.Thomson has also used the argument. "You're being ridiculous. The earliest version that we can find is a change from BCE. We can see that. That is all "BCE -> BC" can mean and it is only insanity or some other mental deficiency to deny that. We cannot find any earlier version. Ergo, the earliest version, for all intents and purposes, is BCE. Period"
 * Point 2: Ian.Thomson has also used the argument. "You're being ridiculous. The earliest version that we can find is a change from BCE. We can see that. That is all "BCE -> BC" can mean and it is only insanity or some other mental deficiency to deny that. We cannot find any earlier version. Ergo, the earliest version, for all intents and purposes, is BCE. Period"


 * and "Actually, the oldest oldest material was lost in the transition from Nupedia to a Wiki format, which is why we end up with this curious diff featuring an edit by an apparently time travelling conversion script bot. The first edit saved summary indicates that the article was changed from BCE to BC. There would be no reason to do that if there was no older version, it would actually be ridiculous to do so. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:12, 20 November 2011 (UTC)"


 * I have at length tried to explain to him that judgement on something that you cannot see (i.e Nupedia) or have evidence for is not valid at Wikipedia. The first available source for the article is here and is clearly NOT BCE, also being called insane is not pleasant either. This edit war has being going on for the last 6 months or so with no decisive action being taken.
 * Additionally, there was no consensus on the talkpage] and so no change to BCE/CE is merited. Please read the recent disscussion of the BCE/CE problem here. All the arguments are laid out in full.

If you require any more information please let me know. I shall notify all those involved, thank you. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Why are you so concerned about it? What POV are YOU trying to push? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:19, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The earliest version that can be found is a switch from BCE to BC, thus the earliest version is BCE. I am not the only editor to restore it to BCE, and I am not the first, that has been shown on the talk page, you are lying when you say I'm at the forefront of all those edits.
 * How else can "BCE -> BC" be read? You have failed to answer that in any sane or thoughful way.  That is the edit summary for the earliest stored version, hence the earliest version that we can see is really BCE.  You'll find that I leave a number of other articles alone, so your accusation of me being the POV-pusher here is false.  That, combined with your misrepresentation of my claims and edits here, along with calling good-faith edits vandalism, and making an ad hominem attack by comparing those reverting to BCE with Obama birther conspiracy theorists, really show that you're the POV-pusher here. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Excuse me Baseball bugs, but shouldn't you be saying that to the person who made the changes and not the person who is reverting them? Please read the arguments. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Could it be that you're wrong? Ian.thomson (talk) 00:31, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Edit warring is no fun for anyone, so I bothered to write this out here. If you can suggest a better option other than letting people change the dating system surreptitiously, then I'm all ears. Wrong about what? the first version is clearly BC, as is made clear on the talk page, and there was no agreement for change. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The earliest existing history entry, from 10 years ago, indicates someone changing from BCE to BC for no stated reason. That editor is still active. Maybe you should invite him here? Although he might not remember all the details from a week after 9/11/01. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:37, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The IP has reverted 7 times in the last day and a half or so. Should he be blocked, or should the article be semi'd? Or both? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * EXcuse me, but you've not even given an argument here. I bothered to write all this out and you just dismiss it. nice democracy you hve here. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:38, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Make that EIGHT reverts in the last day and a half now. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * EXcuse me, but you've not even given an argument here. I bothered to write all this out and you just dismiss it. nice democracy you hve here. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:38, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, and 4 for Ian. I'm sure you're well aware that if something has been the norm for a significant period of time, as stated in the WP:Style manual, that there is no reason to change it. Also, you've failed to adress this "<!- THIS ARTICLE HAS 'BCE' FOR A LONG TIME, SPARTACUS IS UNCONNECTED TO CHRISTIANITY, DON'T SWITCH IT TO BC! ->". THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT for or against BCE. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:41, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * To the edit-warring, POV-pushing IP: The first version is not BC, it has been demonstrated repeatedly that it is not BC, you are coming across as a useless editor refusing to get the point, either because you're a troll or you're just honestly incompetent.  Ian.thomson (talk) 00:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * To Bugs: Both a block and a protect sound nice.
 * Re number of reverts: I've only had 1 in the past 24 hours, and 3 in the previous 24 hour cycle.
 * Re no reason for change: yes, that's why it should stay BCE. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The best evidence we have is that it was originally BCE. I've asked for the article to be protected. I recommend no more reverts, from either side, until the admins take some action. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:45, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If you'd just said that in the first place we wouldn't have had all this bickering. Thats why I brought the issue here, for a proper opinion. until last year the article was happily bc, if you wanna mess with that for your own reasons, fine. I've had enough. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:46, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The page is now semi'd, and I've asked that you be suspended for edit-warring. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:48, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ian has just made his 5th revert. He already has a ban for edit warring. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:49, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * He doesn't have any "ban", though he had a short block this past February. I've asked the original editor to come here and explain his actions from 10 years ago, changing BCE to BC, while realizing that he might not remember it all that well. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

2nd in a 24 hour cycle, restoring the page to what precedent and guidelines call for. Key difference. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:51, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "<!- THIS ARTICLE HAS 'BCE' FOR A LONG TIME, SPARTACUS IS UNCONNECTED TO CHRISTIANITY, DON'T SWITCH IT TO BC! ->" <--- that should be renmoved. you added it, take it away. It is not an argument. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 00:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * WEll thank you for your efforts anyway. It was my opinion that was reverting a change in the first place, as 99 percent of articles written in 2001 used BC by default for which I got it in the neck. BCE has only become popular in some communities in the last 4 years, despite its existence for of a century.94.194.34.10 (talk) 01:02, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You have no evidence that he was reverting a previous change. It is hypocritical to say that I can't call on the edit summary as evidence that the earlier version was BCE, but to completely make up an older version with BC.  As for the note, I'm not removing it: you do it sometime this week :P  Ian.thomson (talk) 01:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * All we know is that the first record in the history indicates a change from BCE to BC. BCE and CE have been in wide usage for quite some time, although some may not have gotten the message. As to what happened in 2001, I think only the user Zundark can answer that question. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:16, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I would have blocked the IP for 3RR, but EdJohnston has semi'd the page, so there's no point at the moment. Leaving him unblocked to discuss on the talkpage. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:23, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The IP refuses to get the point, though. It has been explained over and over and over that the earliest version we can see is BCE, but that only reasonable assumption is dismissed as imagining an article which doesn't exist while he sees it perfectly fine to imagine that the article a few revisions prior was BC.  Even when other editors have explained this, he refuses to get the point.  This IP editor is only tendentious, and that's assuming good faith, if not competence.  Ian.thomson (talk) 01:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I AM SPARTACUS! Er, I mean, why are we having a content argument on ANI?--Tznkai (talk) 01:31, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Because the IP came here to complain about the content. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:33, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Why did I take it to ANI? Because I thought that's where it should have been taken. However, how can I discuss something when no one gives a counter argument to my complaint. Ian, is being obnoxious and I find myself taking it personally. Not once have I made a personal attack at him, and I've been on the receiving end of a few. I'm not the most experienced editor for sure, but he just rams wikipedia policy down my throat by citing WP:this or WP:that, and having read them myself i see that he's not adhering to them either. For instance here "The site-wide consensus is not to use BC/AD[user:Ian.thomas]22:31, 3 October 2011 (UTC)". That's plain wrong. and his argument that Spartacus wasn't christian thus BCE should be used, that's plain wrong as well. Please someone tell me otherwise (not you ian, you've made your point very clear). He's as much aPOV to use BCE as I have to preserving what was already there. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 01:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * News just in lol. "Comment Per WP:COMMONNAME it really ought to be BC 1650 hits for BCE 71600 for BC User:Darkness Shines (talk) 01:41, 22 November 2011 (UTC)" evidence — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.34.10 (talk)

Hey, thanks for tipping us off to your normal login ID. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:50, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Obvious sock is obvious sock. WP:COMMONNAME is a completely unrelated policy for article titles.  It has nothing to do with dates.  Per the already established policies and guidelines for dating formats, we use the earliest version unless there is a discussed consensus for change.  No discussion occured.  Ian.thomson (talk) 01:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You can request a checkuser but I don't think so with this one. <b style="color:#00C">⋙–Ber</b><b style="color:#66f">ean–Hun</b><b style="color:#00C">ter—►</b>  02:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The checkuser would likely turn it down because it's as obvious as the nose on his face. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:09, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A previously uninvolved editor also from Britain conveniently comes in and makes illogical arguments for BC... Seems likely to me.  Still, I'm going to wait to see if Darkness Shines does something before filing a SPI. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:13, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Huh? what are you guys on about? This is on the ANI board, Britain has 65 million people in it. I'm sure it's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone stumbles across this post and adds his tuppence worth. By all means ask him if he's me, but lmao I don't think he is. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 02:24, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, but those 65 million people aren't trying to disguise their identity at Wikipedia by editing from multiple accounts and IP addresses. -- Jayron  32  04:17, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * - The Bushranger One ping only 04:16, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Can we just hang on a little bit here. Whilst multiple reverts and sockpuppeting is obviously not a good thing, the IP may actually have a point. It is not clear what the earliest version of the article used - the earliest version here indicates a change but it could easily have been reverting a change from BC to BCE. We simply do not know. What we do know is that from 2001 to 2009 it was BC. After that it has seesawed back and forth a bit, but has generally been in BC. Ian.thomson added a statement here which seems to be completely false (it had not been BCE for a long time, the opposite in fact). Now, rather than coming to a consensus (which clearly does not yet exist at the talkpage) they chose to revert. The IPs initial edit summary seems perfectly sound. Polequant (talk) 10:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This looks like a good application for a targeted RfC. The original version is lost in the dust of history, so our normal rules are of limited use. So lets just try to establish a new consensus one way or the other. This topic has been discussed sufficiently all over Wikipedia to know that convincing a significant fraction of either faction via further argument is unlikely. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:13, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I've been asked to explain the rationale for an edit I made more than ten years ago. Well, that's a long time ago, but the edit was no doubt done for clarity: BCE and CE are not very widely understood in the UK (and were perhaps even less so back then), whereas BC and AD are almost universally understood, and therefore preferable. There was no manual of style back then, so we just did whatever we thought best (unless Larry disagreed with it).

As for the question of what the article originally used, I have no idea. I looked on archive.org to see if they have anything earlier, but the earliest they have is 1 March 2002. --Zundark (talk) 10:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * SO if we're finished calling people ducks, shall we discuss this, or are we going to be rude to other users defending the article as well? The article has used BC for most of those ten years, the original is no longer valid anyway, you all know that if a style has been in use for a long period of time it cannot be reverted willy nilly. [user:Ian.thomson] gave this reasons for SPARTACUS IS UNCONNECTED TO CHRISTIANITY, DON'T SWITCH IT TO BC! which is simply mad, and it's Pot calling the kettle black to say I have issues if he's using this as a reason to change it. 94.194.34.10 (talk) 12:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Speaking of "ducks", when are you going to quit ducking the question of why you're so hung up on this minor matter? Zundark at least has a logical explanation for why he changed it. All I've heard from others is that BCE/CE are somehow "political" - as if BC/AD aren't. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:46, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

It seems clear that the earliest known version of the article used BCE/CE, and that Zundark didn't revert to some even earlier version that used BC/AD, but rather made a good faith change to BC/AD because he perceived this would be clearer to UK readers. This is a tempest in a teapot. It is justifiable to revert back to the format used originally, there should be no controversy over this. Personally I'd have blocked both editors for warring (you don't need to exceed 3 reverts in 24 hours to be edit warring if it's clear you're edit warring), but that is not necessary now. ~Amatulić (talk) 13:18, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * This has rapidly escalated into a content dispute, which are not held here. It is not ANI's role to determine WP:CONSENSUS here.  Both Ian and the IP have been a little aggressive here.  We have had tit-for-tat filings.  Push comes to shove, someone was WP:BOLD, someone else WP:REVERTED, now you discuss and look for where a) consensus was formed earlier, or b) use WP:3O, WP:DR or some other method to determine a new consensus.  Pointe finale  ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 13:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's been nothing more than a content dispute from the moment the IP posted his complaint here. Recommend you box this up, and let the discussion be confined to the article talk page. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And especially now that the OP has been blocked for using several socks to push what appears to be a personal agenda. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Problem with aggressive users
I have a problem with aggressive users Csendesmark and CoolKoon. I think Wikipedia is not a battleground. User Csendesmark wrote on my talk page: ''Even asked politely, you are talking about Hungarians like the Nazis about Jews. In a long run, you may have to register a new account... Your education seems like told to hate the Magyars ... Hungarians=bad/evil/DEVIL. Can you name anything good in Hungary or the Hungarian people? (really)''1 This is great personal attack and lie of course. After he wrote on CoolKoon talk page in Hungarian language: megtudnád velem osztani a emesen vagy szkojp címed? > translate: he knew me or share ? ? address? And CoolKoon speedy deleted this post.2. User CoolKoon wrote on my talk page: "So once again, another case of assuming bad faith. I've tried to point out to you the fact that it was the wording of your edit which was the most problematic, not necessarily the content itself (though I strongly object to some of it too). So you can either choose to ignore my advice (Wladthemlat would probably advise in favor of that), keep pushing the POVishly worded material and risk an ANI report and sanctions (I'm not blackmailing you, any other editor could file an ANI report for inserting POV material too) OR you could reword your edit (in the sorts of "the census has been challenged by some[sources go here] as being manipulated") and could subsequently report editors who'd try to remove it, even though it's "properly sourced NPOV material" (provided your sources ARE reliable and not in the likes of beo.sk, extraplus.sk or voltaire.netkosice.sk etc.). The power (to choose one of the options) is yours...."3 His post is full lies, but why am I threatened? I used reference by Dr. Anatol Murad (US professor), but CoolKoon wrote about his work: reeks of bad science 4 This is personal attack on Dr. Anatol Murad. Who are CoolKoon? What is his education? Any expert in this theme? Or original researcher. I also used reference by Prof. Štefan Šutaj published by Cambridge University Press (Šuta is head of the department of history, Institute of Social Sciences, Slovak Academy of Sciences. He is also head of the SK-HU intergovernmental committee of historians - if Hungarian government is ok with him, so am I.) For CoolKoon Šutaj is Slovak nationalist.5 This is personal attack on Prof. Štefan Šutaj. Until CoolKoon and othres provide some reliable sources disputing Murad´s and Šutaj's qualification or academic work, his qualification does make him an expert and his publications expert ones. Please resolve problems with Csendesmark´s and CoolKoon´s personal attacks.--Omen1229 (talk) 13:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I topic-banned the reporting editor,, under WP:DIGWUREN for a persistent history of battleground conduct. Might well be worth having a good hard look at the other parties too, but don't have the time right now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:41, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Jennifer Rush
Not sure if this is the right place, but can someone take a look at the recent history of Jennifer Rush and Movin' (album). Not sure what to do about this user (s).--Tuzapicabit (talk) 14:38, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Ummm, the article talk page is the right place to start. Given the relative triviality of the fact in question (getting to #78 in the UK singles charts in the 80s; The Freshies managed top 60 by painting their guitars pink), I can't see why you didn't just tag it as and move on. No admin action required here at this time, though obviously if the user adding said info continues to a) swap accounts and b) use incivil edit summaries that warrants a warning. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:44, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The chart section is referenced. There's no need to tag it with since the reference given shows that the information he's trying to add is false. Never mind.--Tuzapicabit (talk) 18:23, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

List of culinary vegetables
List of culinary vegetables‎ has has a spate of anonymous edits attempting to add "Pizza" (usually with foul language as pseudo-latin species names) as a culinary vegetable. They've been from a variety of IP addresses, which is puzzling. Each has been reverted, but they keep coming back. Would this be a good case for semi-protection? Waitak (talk) 03:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If it continues, you could report it to WP:RFPP. You'll usually get pretty fast action there. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:36, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * For what its worth the Feds have classified pizza as a vegetable regarding school lunch menus, so perhaps that is what is provoking this bout of vandalism. Quinn <sup style="color:black;">&#10025; STARRY NIGHT 03:42, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Pizza in the United States is fully protected right now for precisely this reason.&mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 04:10, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Reported to WP:RFPP. Thanks for the feedback. Waitak (talk) 04:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If our government actually has defined pizza as a vegetable, maybe removing it constitutes vandalism (except for the bogus Latin stuff). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:38, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Honestly? Pizza is no more a vegetable than ketchup, despite what one nation's government may declare at the behest of the food industry. --Bongwarrior (talk) 05:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I would say at least a mention of the controversy should be allowed in Pizza in the United States (and it's not as if it's a great article anyway). The story has been reported worldwide, admittedly quite often in a "Hey before we go today, here's a funny story about how stupid Americans are" way, though Americans themselves have contributed too (I liked this; "Because we live in America, where people, who have been elected to public office, do not believe in climate science, but do believe pizza is a vegetable." ). Black Kite (t)   07:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That, or perhaps even Pizza as a vegetable along the same lines as the ketchup article. But certainly not "The US Congress said it's now a vegetable, so it must be so." --Bongwarrior (talk) 08:26, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A tomato is technically a fruit, so no vegetable classification is possible. Talk amongst yourselves. Doc   talk  08:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As noted in the Tomato article, it is botanically a fruit, but from the culinary standpoint it's a vegetable. (For example, you'll find tomatoes in vegetable salads but not fruit salads.) Presumably pizza being considered a vegetable has to do with the use of tomato sauce on it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:57, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Botanically is the key, of course. Cucumbers, pumpkins: seed-bearing plant ovaries are all technically fruits. Sweet things is what we call fruits. Carrots... ah, forget it. Doc   talk  13:07, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Carrots are root vegetables. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:10, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure tomatoes actually are, for legal purposes, vegetables, not fruit. (Ketchup, on the other hand...) - The Bushranger One ping only 14:34, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Checking the ingredients of Ketchup, I could argue that Ketchup is even more of a vegetable than a plain tomato is. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that newborn humans are called "fruit of the womb" (not to be confused with newborn underwear called "Fruit of the Loom".) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Anyone who would put Fruit of the Loom on a newborn deserves the consequences. Ntsimp (talk) 16:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Not underwear on newborns, but newborn underwear, i.e. hot-off-the-loom. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:25, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I wasn't suggesting such a classification was possible. Ketchup as a vegetable doesn't suggest that ketchup is a vegetable—it just covers the moronic USDA proposal in the 1980s that would have classified it as such in school lunches, and the subsequent reaction. A pizza article could do likewise. --Bongwarrior (talk) 08:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No argument. Thread's... dead. "Grape-Nuts contain neither grapes nor nuts. Discuss." Doc   talk  09:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * How about the carton of eggs whose label declares: "May Contain Eggs"? - The Bushranger One ping only 14:34, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Or the bag of peanuts that said "Peanuts" on the front, and "Warning, contains peanuts" on the back. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * At least they admit there's no doubt! - The Bushranger One ping only 17:33, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't find reliable refs for this at the moment, but it would appear that The Colbert Report will soon be running a story about how the consumption of pizza by Wikipedians has tripled over the past 24 hours.--Shirt58 (talk) 15:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * User:Hurricanefan25/Pizza as a vegetable for AfD DYK...  HurricaneFan 25  15:38, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * See Nix v. Hedden. Nyttend (talk) 00:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

"Tailsman 67"
First off, forgive me if I do this wrong. I'm an experienced editor, but usually I'm not the type to file complaints like this.

This particular user has been very disruptive with their posting, and it has been escalating late. He refuses to make an account, as he's recently revealed he believes he can get away with more without getting blocked if he just uses IPs. He uses a number of IPs, I can look up more if I need to, but his most active ones I'm familiar with are User talk:74.163.17.131 (Here's a more accurate look at what his talk page should look like: and User talk:98.71.62.59 (EDIT:IP has since blanked their page. Before the blanking, it looked like this).

Anyways, this user is constantly breaking rules, despite how many times they've been warned. (Their talk page shows the degree of warnings received. The worst violations include frequent breakings of WP:NOTAFORUM, such as today here, where he even seemed to admit to knowing he's breaking the rules. And that's what brings me here, the fact that he's recently written on my talk page thatd does it because he thinks he can get away with it

I can go on and on about the removing sourced info w/o explanation, personal attacks, starting discussions where they don't belong, etc, but much of that is covered on the IP talk pages indirectly, so I was going to see if that was enough to warrant action or not. Let me know. Thanks. Sergecross73  msg me   17:36, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * i have nothing against using an anon ip as long as it does not become a sockpuppet as you have described above--70.162.171.210 (talk) 17:40, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem isn't that they're an IP, I don't care either way about that. It's all the policies he continually breaks, and the fact that he recently disclosed that he breaks policies on purpose because he thinks he can get away with it as an IP... Sergecross73   msg me   17:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have more old Ips than that,damn do something right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 17:46, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Another example of this users contributions here, take note, after the user was notified about these very discussions. Sergecross73  msg me   17:57, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

 HurricaneFan 25  18:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll say that in my opinion, not much is needed other than
 * 1) asking Tailsman to stay with using one or two IPs instead of a bunch and
 * 2) a warning, maybe a short block for violation WP:NOTAFORUM
 * The user has already been notified of NOTAFORUM many, many times. And he's been asked not to break policy up and down his talk pages, and yet continues to do so. What makes you think asking him to "stop using one or two IPs" would get any sort of response? Sergecross73   msg me   18:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Not my falt,my Ip changes when I restart my internet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 18:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What does "falt" mean?  HurricaneFan 25  18:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I was also 74.163.25.111. my first Ip — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 18:05, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Can you disclose all your IP addresses you have used? And the main issue is not your constant IP changes, it's your violations of WP:NOTAFORUM.  HurricaneFan 25  18:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Disclose? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 18:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Seems like some WP:COMPETENCE here too. - The Bushranger One ping only 18:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

You can ask for page protection of your user talk page. Then set up a subpage for IPs to post to. --Blackmane (talk) 18:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, though I find it rather easy to keep track of my own talk page, and there's even other users I know who would probably remove it if I missed it. I'm more concerned with the constant breaking of policy despite warnings, unwillingness to discuss or communicate on a coherent level and the "I doing this on purpose, you can't stop me" type attitude. Sergecross73   msg me   18:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * >_> I got to go,pages to fix,spelling to correct,and talkpages to be set up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 19:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah you can't block me cause I wouldn't get an account. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 19:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You're not at risk of being blocked because you're not getting an account; you're at risk of being blocked for not following the rules and attacking other editors. There's a BIG difference. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 19:33, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 20:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Examples

 * Attacking other editors/Incivility
 * 1)
 * 2)
 * 3)
 * 4) (This ones from this very ANI conversation, graciously removed by another user.)
 * Notaforum Violations
 * 1), then instantly afterwards despite being warned:
 * 2)

This is just a work in progress, I can provide many more... Sergecross73  msg me   20:40, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Disruptive posting
 * 1) (Pretending to argue with a sibling who was using the same IP. This edit is a user removing the conversation outright)
 * 2)
 * 3)
 * 4)
 * 3RR
 * 1) Sonic Generations -
 * 2) Cortana (Just today, despite being warned of it before)

I told you my brother has the same Ip address! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 21:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's excuse number 7 in the "I am not a sock!" litany. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:37, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Then why don't you both just get an account to avoid the possibility of confusion going forward? You clearly don't have THAT much of an aversion to the idea, given the fact that you've just proven you each have one on Sonic News Network. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 21:23, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * So you guys can block me forever(English: are you out your damn mind).On the Wikia the rules make sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.17.131 (talk) 21:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah...I contribute to Wikia fairly often and I've READ their rules; you're disobeying THEM too; the only difference is that standards differ from wikia to wikia and there aren't as many people policing the site, so no one calls you out on it. Besides, the standards for content on a fan wikia are far different than they are here. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 21:36, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, this looks promising. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:04, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Obviously hasn't heard of a rangeblock... --Blackmane (talk) 22:10, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That said, there is now an account (with no contributions as of yet) named Sonic1000, the same name as his "brother's" account. Doubt anything will come of it, especially given the current block, but it's worth keeping an eye on just in case. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What with the IP's continued misuse of their talk page in edits such as this (the account mentioned doesn't actually exist, as of the time of writing), perhaps revocation of talk page access is in order as well...  Super Mario  Man  23:05, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * was created in August, unless I'm misinterpreting something. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, you're right, it was made in August. I'll still be monitoring it just in case, though. But Mario's right; revocation of Talk Page privileges might be a good idea as well. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 23:57, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Something that resembles a "sleeper account" should be treated as one. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:34, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Dante's Inferno
Good evening. User:Drmies has been removing my edits to the article Dantes Inferno, noting them as acts of vandalism. User:Deor left a note on my talk page with a link to a source that is not related to my edits. My edits are not vandalism, and I would appreciate support from the community in this matter. Both users have been notified. Diffs: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Inferno_(Dante)&diff=461833517&oldid=461833294 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Inferno_(Dante)&diff=461850126&oldid=461847564 46.249.56.227 (talk) 20:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There is no administrative action to take here. This appears to be a content dispute, and you have done nothing whatsoever to indicate or discuss why the quotes should not be presented in chronological order. They're not vandalism (and nowhere does Drmies say they were), but still unconstructive. -- <strong style="color:blue;">Kinu t/c 20:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Apologies, User:Drmies had said my edits were vandalism on my talk page but I have removed them. You can view that link on my talk. 46.249.56.227 (talk) 21:33, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The complainant here is doing nothing but screwing around with the sequence of quoted passages in the article. Looks to me like vandalism. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:48, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Writing "Sources?" as an edit summary while moving a sentence seemingly randomly is not constructive at all (to put it nicely). Also the lack of any attempt at an explanation on the talk page for this strange move, and especially the instant threat about "taking it to AN/I" (this being the second edit of this IP), seems to me to be very fishy. --Saddhiyama (talk) 22:24, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * While I am honored to be a defendant in this venerable court of publick opinion, next time I want a more substantial complaint. The edit history is clear, but the IP's reasons are mirky--they revert the order of Ciardi's and Singleton's translation, for entirely unclear reasons. One quickly sees that the order as established by Deor (see IP's first revert) is based on chronology; why the IP would revert Deor, and what "sources?" means, is a mystery to me. I can only surmise that this is either a joke or a modernized utterance in the vein of "Raphel mai amecche zabi almi". Drmies (talk) 22:50, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

File:LauraStreetTrio.JPG
For some reason the above file, which is currently featured on the Main Page, has a nonsense description instead of its description. Kelly hi! 23:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I fixum. On commons creates a link to an enwiki article.  On Wikipedia, it transcludes the welcome template onto the page.  And Sue Gardner thinks that women are put off by the mediawiki interface. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:19, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Attempted outing
has attempted to out me here. Block please? And is revdel possible in this case? Ian.thomson (talk) 23:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks like they zapped it. However, attempted outings are best handled behind-the-scenes rather than in public. [In future], Go to your most trusted admin and e-mail him with your request. That way it will simply disappear without drawing further attention to it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * * smacks forehead* Yeah... It's been a long day, and Dougweller usually handles this stuff for me... Ian.thomson (talk) 00:06, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I revdeleted it, but will leave it to you to email oversight as you see fit. I also looked at blocking the IP, but decided against it given the hopping nature of the user and the shared IP. It's what we at AIV would call 'stale'. I'd probably have blocked it on sight, if I saw it. -- zzuuzz (talk) 00:12, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I've hit it with the oversight bat. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:17, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, y'all. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:24, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Topic ban review
I've been under an indefinite topic ban on Indian history since April 8, 2011. While I never thought that this community imposed ban was appropriate and hold the same belief today, I've tried to stick to the conditions of the ban as I have understood them. If and when I inadvertently violated the terms of the ban while fighting vandalism or while editing a topic that sometimes strayed in to "ban territory", I (or others) have reported it to the relevant admin. I was told AN/I and RFC/U were possible relevant avenues to get the ban lifted. I chose AN/I because it is simpler and less time consuming.

I am requesting the Wikipedia community to consider a review of the ban. Zuggernaut (talk) 04:18, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Subpage that made the ban formal
 * I think it would be appropriate for some explanation to be provided. For example, was the original topic ban totally wrong, or was it at least partially justified? What has changed to warrant a change in the topic ban? I am involved, as I supported the March 2011 topic ban. Johnuniq (talk) 07:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Although related to current affairs in India rather than history, the POV apparent in the wording of the first edit to a new article, and then the subsequent reinstatement of it later does not bode well. There have been other problems recently, at other articles, eg: see Talk:Kunbi and Talk:Kunbi (in fact, all over that particular article, there were insertions/removals of stuff that were of of clear POV-pushing nature). I know that Zuggernaut can do good things but the hang-ups about the British Raj and the promotion of a modern-day "nationalist" agenda still seem to be issues.
 * I do find the interaction ban with User:Fowler&fowler to be a little strange and perhaps that needs to be revisited. If nothing else, it is one-sided & has proved to be next to impossible reasonably to enforce. Was not involved in the original ban discussion but have had dealings since. . - Sitush (talk) 10:24, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The was wrong and I've used neutral wording since then. There are no other changes, i.e:
 * I would definitely support the Ganges to Ganga move and help those who initiate it
 * I plan on initiating a move from Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi to Mahatama Gandhi once every year as new sources are generated
 * The lead of the India article is highly POV and unbalanced. By jumping from the Indus Valley Civilization to the East India Company, it skips one vital line capturing the period in Indian history that has shaped Indian culture, the Indian mind and the Indian character, i.e, the period when concepts of the Atma (or also their Buddhist and Jain equivalents) and the Brahman, the unity of the two and various other philosophies were developed. I will work towards building consensus on the inclusion of this one line if the ban is lifted.
 * No new material on famines and Churchill has emerged so I will not edit anything in that regard for now. As soon as a new source other than Mukherjee and Amartya Sen (whose views have repeatedly been rubbished by POV warriors), I will attempt to update relevant articles.
 * I have little interest in the lists of inventions.
 * I have updated my original post to include a link to ArbCom where most of the relevant diffs can be seen. Zuggernaut (talk) 03:47, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Declaring a desire to pursue tendentious editing is a bad way to ask for a topic ban review. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose"No new material on famines and Churchill has emerged so I will not edit anything in that regard for now". (emphasis mine) This statement alone shows that Zuggernaut has not understood the necessity of their topic ban. --Blackmane (talk) 11:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose lifting of ban based on comment cited directly above. Editor seems to be saying that as soon as some other editor repeats such statements, the edit warring will be resumed. That really is not a good way to try to convince others that the behavior which led to the ban will not recur. John Carter (talk) 21:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose Zuggernaut has learned nothing and hasnt changed his behaviour during his topic ban. He just took it to a different place. This attempt at recruiting new editors to his "cause" by using a non-neutral welcome template is one of the things he has been upto during the topic ban. I am involved, as I supported the March 2011 topic ban. --Sodabottle (talk) 05:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Mass copyvio on Japanese fiction articles


Having stumbled upon List of Ultraman Ace monsters, much of which appears to have been copied from http://www.freewebs.com/godzilla_2000/ and its sub-pages, I had a look through this IP's edits and it seems likely that pretty much all plot material this user has added to articles is copyvio. I've flagged a couple of the most obvious ones where all the content was from a single page, but it might be worth digging deeper.

As an aside, this wouldn't be so much of a problem if we had editors involved in editing articles in this genre who paid the slightest bit of attention to WP:WAF, or notability of fiction in general. List of Ultraman Leo monsters (one of this IP's deleted contribs), for instance, is a straight copyvio of this, and yet at its AfD nobody apparently bothered to check this and multiple editors who should know better were happy for the content to be kept. List of Ultraman Ace monsters was PRODded only to be declined by without a rationale. I've notified the WikiProject which supposedly watches these articles along with active editors in the area I recognised from the AfD linked; please ping other parties who may be involved as well.

Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Nyttend has already removed the copyvio on List of Ultraman Ace monsters. There is a similar blatant copyvio on List of Return of Ultraman monsters which seems to come from here for example (2006). A prod was also refused by Jclemens in March 2011. Mathsci (talk) 13:36, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * To summarize the longer response on my talk page: Glad the copyvios were cleaned up; it would have happened much sooner if the nominators had used the most appropriate deletion process for copyvios, CSD G12. Jclemens (talk) 14:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The copyvios aren't cleaned up. As I say, it is likely that every edit by this IP is tainted in this manner. Furthermore, there's evidence to suggest that all of these problems are still live, as none of the editors subsequently touching these pages (save for the ones adding PRODs or AfD tags) have fixed the copyright problems. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 15:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Chris, are you sure he's copying from the Ultra fan site, not the other way round? If so, it looks like every Ultra edit he has made was copied from that site :( --Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Even given that it would be deeply unusual for an external site to copy our content and improve it (taking an essentially raw text dump and reformatting it with images and statistics), this archived revision from January 2009 of the Ultraman Leo monsters page contains content which first appears verbatim in Wikipedia in December of that year. So that site couldn't have gotten it from here, and I'm disinclined to believe any of the other articles are any different. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 17:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Complete list
Complete list of edits made by this IP. All of these need checked. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 15:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * 1910 ✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 1970 in film ✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 1984 in film✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 1989 in American television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 1993 in American television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 1994 in American television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 1995 in American television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 1996 in American television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 1996 in film✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 1997✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 1997 in American television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 1997 in film✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 1998 in American television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 1999 in American television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 2000 in American television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 2001 in American television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 2002 in American television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 2003 in American television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 2004 in American television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 2005 in American television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 2006 in television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 2007 in television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 2008 in American television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * 2010 in American television✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * Aboras✔️ Dianna (talk)
 * Alien Balbalu
 * Alien Baltan
 * Alien Empera ‎
 * Alien Guts
 * Alien Hipporit
 * Alien Hook
 * Alien Mephilas
 * Alien Metron
 * Alien Nackle
 * Alien Regulan
 * Alien Temperor
 * Alien Zarab ‎
 * Alien Zetton
 * Animal Farm (1954 film) ‎
 * Banila
 * Bemstar ✔️ someone fixed the copyvio a while ago Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Birdon
 * Dada (Ultra Monster)
 * Doragoris
 * Dorako
 * Earthtron
 * Eleking
 * Femigon
 * Gamera 2: Attack of Legion ‎
 * Gamera 3: Awakening of Irys ‎
 * Gamera the Brave ‎
 * Gesura
 * Ghostron
 * Goldras
 * Golza
 * Gomora
 * Gudon
 * Jamila (Ultra monster)
 * Japanese films of 2001 ‎
 * Japanese films of 2002 ‎
 * Japanese films of 2003 ‎
 * Japanese films of 2004 ‎
 * Japanese films of 2006 ‎
 * Japanese films of 2009 ‎
 * Kelbeam
 * Keronia
 * King Joe (Ultra monster)
 * Kiyla
 * Kodaigon
 * List of Return of Ultraman monsters
 * List of Ultraman 80 monsters
 * List of Ultraman Gaia monsters ‎
 * List of Ultraman monsters
 * List of Ultraman Taro monsters
 * Lunaticks
 * Madeline (1998 film) ‎
 * Magular
 * Miclas
 * Mukadender
 * Nova (Ultra monster)
 * Nurse (Ultra monster) ✔️. IP copied from Ultra site, content rewritten by others Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Pandon
 * Pestar
 * Red King (Ultra monster)
 * Sadora
 * Silvergon
 * Sniz & Fondue
 * Telesdon
 * Template:Ultra Monsters ‎
 * The Swan Princess II: Escape from Castle Mountain ‎
 * The Swan Princess: The Mystery of the Enchanted Kingdom ‎
 * The War of the Gargantuas ‎
 * Tyrant (Ultra monster)
 * Ultraman 80 ‎
 * Ultraman Ace ‎
 * Ultraman Leo ‎
 * Ultraman Tiga ‎
 * Ultra Monsters
 * Vakishim
 * Yapool
 * Zetton
 * I severely doubt that the pages on the individual Ultraman programs and the navigation template will be of much issue here. The Ultraman Tiga page is the largest that might be an issue (at least in my topic area) and much of the identical content comes about from pages such as this, this, and this copying Wikipedia outright (supersentai.com is a particularly egregious example of copyvio of our material).— Ryulong ( 竜龙 ) 18:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I deleted three articles that were tagged for G12 speedy (List of Ultraman Mebius monsters, List of Ultraman Ace monsters, and List of Ultra Seven monsters), after which I restored their earlier edits. Ultraman Ace is obviously safe; I believe that the other two are also safe, but it would help if someone checked these pages to ensure that I didn't accidentally undelete some copyvios.  Nyttend (talk) 00:23, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems that you're using WP:Selective deletion. WP:Revision deletion works separately from page deletion, so it might prevent accidental undeletion. Flatscan (talk) 05:44, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Personal attacks by Jim Sukwutput
I'm an anonymous editor. I used to be registered, I made the choice to be anonymous by IP some time ago. I'm often called a troll. I've been involved in WP:ITN/C since the announcement of Steve Jobs' resignation from the Apple CEO position prior to his death. My IP is dynamic, it changes, I don't care. I tried unsuccessfully to have the wordwide Occupy Movement posted to ITN several weeks ago. I have a genuine interest in Occupy Movement articles. I'm not a troll.

User:Jim_Sukwutput has made a number of hostile remarks:
 * "This is the second time you used this idiotic line of reasoning."
 * "This is either a joke or what is possibly the dumbest comment ever posted on Wikipedia."
 * "Then when I exposed his bullshit for what it is, he proceeded to follow me across five AfD nominations and vote the opposite way in every one of them. This, my friends, is the clear mark of a troll."
 * "But instead of educating your ignorant ass"

I don't understand this users hostility. Please help. --76.18.43.253 (talk) 14:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC) A good faith edit by a legitimate anonymous editor. Please do not revery my edits. I am not a troll.
 * Well, you could start by explaining just what you meant by, "The speed of neutrinos at CERN is a local issue of limited global significance." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:13, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It was a doomed post, I was having a little fun with it. Obviously the fundamental laws of physics affect the entire world, but if 7000 people closing the port of Oakland are not interesting outside the USA, surely some neutrinos at CERN are not interesting outside of Europe. --76.18.43.253 (talk) 14:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * If you're going to waste people's time with deliberately disruptive comments, you should expect some backlash. Jim Sukwutput could certainly have avoided taking your bait, but the root cause was your disruption of the ITN process as some sort of retribution for not having your own pet subject featured. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:33, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I expect that if some significant number of the occupiers get killed, global interest will increase. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you realise that you start your initial complaint by insisting allegations of you being a troll are frivolous and constitute a "personal attack", and then just 20 minutes later confessed that you were indeed trolling in one of the discussions that YOU linked to? For your own good, if you're going to throw boomerangs, at least don't sharpen them first. Also, I'd just like to point out that, amongst the 4 links you posted, the first 2 are definitely not personal attacks. Calling an argument "stupid" or "idiotic" is perhaps uncivil, but it's not the same as calling someone stupid or an idiot. Basa lisk  <sup style="color:green;">inspect damage ⁄<sub style="color:#CC9900;">berate  15:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, I'm not a troll, I'm not leaving bait to take. You're focusing on one section, the heading of which was "Einstein Fail". Care to comment on the others? Carefully considered comments are answered with "idiotic line of reasoning"? That's hateful. --76.18.43.253 (talk) 16:25, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * On top of that I've never once responded to this users comments, however, the user insists on responding to mine. I don't understand, because I don't attack the user, but the user attacks me. I don't make absurd comments that are patent nonsense (with the exception of the aforementioned Einstein Fail section). Why the hate? I'm not a troll. --76.18.43.253 (talk) 16:41, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If you've trolled before you can't be surprised if people wonder if you are trolling in other instances. The best way to avoid this is simply don't troll at all as it serves no purpose other then to waste everyone's time and make people doubt you. Nil Einne (talk) 07:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I have been witness to these ITN/C discussions with the people involved and User:Deterence, who has since been blocked for uncivil remarks and insults (including using personal insults against me). The arena of ITN/C can be heated at times, and people require a few breaths between posts. However I can see no issue in this specific point - Jim Sukwutput has often been the calmer influence in ITN/C though his turns of phrase can be a little spiky at times.  Further more, I think the desire to get an Occupy article on the front page just for the sake of it clouds peoples opinions, which is exactly why no Occupy article has ever had a successful nomination. doktorb wordsdeeds 15:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi. This has nothing to do with occupy, at this point, and more to do with the phrase "Idiotic line of reasoning", then resorting to calling my comments "bullshit", even after I asked the user to stop being uncivil. They're hateful, discouraging remarks and must stop. --76.18.43.253 (talk) 16:27, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I have no remarks on the first three edits given by the user. Given the behavior of this user as demonstrated in this section, those comments were certainly well-justified, though they could be put more civilly. But the fourth edit is not a comment on the IP. It was a response to User:Deterence, who has since been indefinitely banned for personal attacking numerous users. Given the severity of his personal attacks at the time (accusing that User:Doktorbuk has issues with mental capacity), I believe my response was rather well-mannered. And in fact, if you check the edit history of the page, you'll notice that I removed in good faith the offending part of my comment immediately after I made it. The inclusion of this edit in the IP's complaint is thus completely frivolous, and falls into a long pattern of edits made in bad faith to deliberately provoke other users and disrupt serious work on Wikipedia. This is why I referred to him as a "troll" - in an attempt to dissuade fellow editors on ITN/C from taking his baits.  Jim Sukwutput  16:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi. I simply included that last remark as an example of the pattern of hostility from this user. You're correct, it was not directed at me, and was removed four minutes later, and four hours before reporting the target of those hateful remarks on this noticeboard. I don't care about User:Deterence, I tried to warn the user of the same, the user persisted and is now rightfully banned. I do care about a pattern of overt hostility from and unrepentant User:Jim Sukwutput. Thank you. --76.18.43.253 (talk) 00:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Looks like a sock of User:Deterence to me. Pantherskin (talk) 22:48, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a harsh claim, and is false. Any admin who can cast IP reveal will know immediately I am not User:Deterence. Would an admin, please, disprove this caustic and fraudulent claim. --76.18.43.253 (talk) 23:49, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is Deterence, the language and turns of phrase are different, even with the stamping grounds are the same. In any case, Deterence was pretty much obsessed with Occupy and there's nothing to suggest this user has the same attitude. doktorb wordsdeeds 09:13, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm resolving this: there is plainly no consensus for any administrative action here. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:38, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Slowking4 self-imposed interaction bans
I'm can't make heads or tails of Slowking's intent with adding four Wikipedia users to his userpage to "do not interact with". I let him know that users who keep lists of editors like that can be seen as an attack and similar lists (during my time on Wikipedia) have been deleted for that reason. I extended good faith and, instead of removing the content myself, I asked him to remove it from his user space so editors listed there wouldn't take offense. His reply was that they are self-imposed interaction bans, told me to not talk to him and then added me to his user page. My concern is the fact he calls them interaction bans (especially since this is the first time I have ever talked to him), me being listed there and the way it promotes a lack of civility and probably biting a newcomer in the future. Personally, I would like my name removed from such a list, whether the other editors listed there mind being there or not. Since I'm involved, I don't want to remove it myself. Also, since he doesn't want me to talk to him, I guess I'll ask someone to inform him of this thread I started. — Moe   ε  16:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I dont think it's a personal attack. It's a self-reminder of a self-imposed interaction ban in the user's own userspace.  They dont say why they have the ban, they don't attack you, and they dont link to any diffs.  It's as benign as such as thing can be.--v/r - TP 16:35, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You don't find there to be anything wrong with an editor who self-imposes an interaction ban on someone they have talked to once? Interaction bans are usually imposed through the community once every method of dispute resolution has been tried and failed. — Moe   ε  16:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * He posted once, and Slowking has instructed him never to post again. That's hardly benign, is it. Why don't you try posting that ANI notification and see if he bans you. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:44, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * They are self-imposed interaction bans. As far as I am aware, that means that Slowking will not contact Moe Epsilon.  It doesn't go the other direction.  That's not how a self-imposed ban works.  Epsilon hasn't self-imposed his own ban.  Further, if Slowking choses not to interact with everyone on Wikipedia, that's his choice.  He'll find difficulty editing collaboratively, and it won't stop folks from leaving him warnings, but he'll find his own restrictions are...restrictive.  So, like I said:  No, it's not a problem, and yes it is benign.--v/r - TP 16:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That isn't how an interaction ban works either though. An interaction ban means he will be blocked if he contacts, starts threads, mentions in discussion, etc. about a certain editor he's in a dispute with. If he actually receives blocks for an interaction ban then I suppose then he has a legitimate concern and reason for keeping a list. However, I am not in a dispute with him (or I wasn't before he posted my name on his user page). As it stands, it is just a list of editors he doesn't like nor wants to communicate with. — Moe   ε  17:04, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yow. Um, actually, I'm not so sure about that, TP.  User_talk:Slowking4 makes me want to start questioning just how much we should WP:AGF about this; that last comment, in particular, seems more than a little questionable to me.  I just notified the user, so we'll see how things go from here.  rdfox 76 (talk) 17:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not a formal community-imposed sanction-backed interaction ban. This user has informally chosen to refrain from interacting with you.  He has chosen to make this public knowledge.  It is a one way street.  Is it a bit dramatic?  Yeah.  Is it also dramatic to make such a big deal of it?  Yeah, it is.  You can't force someone to interact with you.  At most, you can report them for failing to discuss article content that you've disputed.--v/r - TP 17:10, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Re Rdfox 76: Not so sure about it? Slowking4 said exactly the same I did. "no, this is merely a reminder to me not to interact with these people," It is a self-reminder. "i would ask you not to interact with me" - He asked that Epsilon not interact with him. He didn't say Epsilon is banned from interacting with him, demand that he stop, or any other threatening or personal attacking language. You see?--v/r - TP 17:19, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Utterly shocking, in years past it was uncivil and disruptive to have lists of editors you don't like on your user page or say that you didn't want to communicate with them, which was accordingly removed. Now the user who does such a thing can just call it a faux interaction ban and the people on the list are dramatic for bringing it up. "Welcome to Wikipedia, collaborate with who you want." — Moe   ε  17:23, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, in the past it was disruptive to say "I dont like this user because of A, B, and C (link here, here, and here)". But feel free to continue this drama-fest without me.  When you want to be reasonable, you can invite me back to the discussion.  Until then, this won't achieve anything.--v/r - TP 17:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected, dramatic and unreasonable when starting an honest conversation. — Moe   ε  17:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, let's say I run into an editor whose edits have been a) racist, b) attacking, c) rude and aggressive, and d) otherwise offend my beliefs and sensibilities. Even though I have never interacted with them, would I not be totally within my rights to make a note to never engage that person in conversation?  (I'm not suggesting that's the case here...merely making a point) ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 18:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If they were racist, attacking, rude, aggressive or otherwise offensive, they would probably be violating one policy or another, and legitimate claims of policy violation are worth a diff link. Even so, a list on your user page would probably entice them further into making such comments. However, my comment on this editor's talk page could no way be contrived into any of these things. — Moe   ε  20:31, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, so someone does have the right to say "I really don't want to interact with so-and-so"? ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 21:58, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I never said that he had to talk to me. I don't want him to be forced to talk to me, so your little game of "gotcha" is proving to be quite contrary to the point I'm making. The point is, instead of interacting with the community, he is attempting to negate any criticism of other editors by saying "I'm enforcing a ban on myself so I won't have to reply to anything you have to say", then making a list of editors he has decided to pass interacting with despite there being a legitimate concern or problem with him, as such in the link Rdfox 76 provided. Instead of interacting with the community when an issue is presented to him, he just enforces a ban so he doesn't have to reply. — Moe   ε  22:24, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Whatever, I was going to close this anyways. I guess no one else but me understands that in dispute resolution, step 1 does not involve telling another editor they are not allowed to post on your talk page and adding them to a list of people to avoid. Talking to this noticeboard is like talking to a rubber wall. — Moe   ε  00:27, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You are correct. The list of users at User:Slowking4 is not appropriate. Yes, it's been done in a neutral manner, but it looks like a standard shitlist, worded in a manner to avoid a claim that it's an attack. Even if the intention is totally benign, such a list is not appropriate and it should be removed. Johnuniq (talk) 10:43, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Threat by User:117.211.90.122
In this piece of literature makes what looks to me like a threat ("But dare u..."). I ask that he be given at least a firm warning about this. By the way, the material discussed involved COI, copyright violation and multiple MOS and policy infringements, but that's beside the point, and I left them warnings about it at their talk. I just draw the line at threats. --Muhandes (talk) 08:37, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That doesn't look to be a threat but their post is laced with personal attacks, suggest a warning for that. Beyond that, this is a content dispute that should be discussed on the talk page first before coming here. Blackmane (talk) 09:33, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I am not bringing the content dispute here, it will be resolved where appropriate (though there is little to resolve about copyright violations). As I said, my only concern is the language (threat, or as you say, personal attack, is the same to me). --Muhandes (talk) 10:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I dropped a warning on their talk page for you. --Blackmane (talk) 12:26, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

More watchers needed
At 02:48 this morning the article Child sex tourism was replaced by a copy of a biography of a prominent living person. I've reverted and deleted the revisions (oversight requested as it's clearly potentially libellous. However it still took 9 hours for it to be spotted, so could more people add the article to their watchlist in case they strike again (it was the only contribution by an IP, so I've not issued a block). Thryduulf (talk) 11:49, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Is this sort of stuff ok?
I mean this. He's talking about me. (P.s. No, you're not dreaming, its a Direktor thread containing less than 1,000 words :)) -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 20:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I smell Kohs. Alexandria (chew out) 21:48, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I concure. It has a certain Kohs-ish odor.  Especially the promotion of MyWikiBiz.  -- Jayron  32  01:25, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Having found the MyWikiBiz page and referencing it doesn't mean they're Kohs. A SPI case would be helpful.  If it's not Kohs they're pushing buttons and limits around ARBMAC but not clearly over the line, and it doesn't reach my duck test threshold on Kohs at the moment.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Just out of curiosity, why on earth can he even link to mywikibiz? Is it not on the spam blacklist?? Bobby Tables (talk) 14:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't imagine what kind of person would associate himself in any way, even indirectly, with a banned user. Wikipedia needs some kind of loyalty test to make sure we're all on the same team..67.168.135.107 (talk) 04:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Alas, some banned users have people flock to their banner to take up the trollhammer... - The Bushranger One ping only 05:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Kohs or not, can we get back to the original topic? An editor left comments of the following form on two other editors' talk pages: "read [external link] about political agenda of user who is well known for his blatant propaganda! What to do?"

What to do indeed.


 * Is this behaviour acceptable? If it is, I have a few pieces to write about other editors. They will be in much better taste than the Kohs hackpiece and will only slightly go beyond what is allowed on-wiki, but they will be of a type that I would not want to see in my user space. Once written, I can then notify other editors individually about the off-wiki links.
 * Can these comments stay on the user pages? Or maybe they should even be revision deleted?
 * Should User:Daneto be warned not to do this again? Sanctioned? Hans Adler 08:46, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, the comments are not ok, and I hope this discussion quickly establishes that a final warning (at a minimum) is appropriate, and that the comments should be revision deleted. Johnuniq (talk) 09:04, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * We need a hard and fast rule that anyone who associates with a banned user is likewise banned. It's us vs. them, folks. We're here to write an encyclopedia; they're here only to troll.67.168.135.107 (talk) 07:11, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, we don't need such a rule any more than we need to abolish IP editing. The only way that polarisation can end a conflict is when one side can completely root out the other, which, putting aside moral issues, is impossible here. Now is any admin going to do something about User:Daneto, or can he do what he wants because DIREKTOR is unpopular? Hans Adler 08:05, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I ask: why this guy has not yet banned after these massive sanctions? Read Requests for arbitration/Macedonia: he was blocked and topic banned constantly for WP:TEND, WP:DISRUPT, WP:OWN! These are only some vandalisms removing sources added by me and other users against his POV: other users restore sentences and sources: indeed he usually falsifies real history in articles and harrass other users such as in this case too! In article of communist Yugoslavia to claim elections themselves were fairly conducted by secret ballot is a huge falsity but I added sentences of Encyclopædia Britannica and book Communist Yugoslavia indeed democrat opposition was not allowed and I copied exactly words of sources! In article of Josip Broz Tito to claim his presidency has been criticized as authoritarian is huge tendentious because Broz Tito has been criticized as totalitarian and he is blamed for democide! Indeed in -titoism- Croat version you read first words Titoizam je jedna od totalitarističkih ideologija komunističkog: titoism is totalitarian communist ideology! This Croat guy can translate articles of his native language for to be neutral! This Croat guy knows communist Yugoslavia's real history very well because he is not from Papua and his POV which falsifies all Requests for arbitration/Macedonia related articles is inconsistent with neutrality of this project!--Daneto (talk) 12:36, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * 1
 * 2
 * 3
 * 4
 * 5
 * 1
 * 2
 * Thank you. This post should be sufficient to generate the necessary attention to get you sanctioned. Hans Adler 12:53, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

what do you suggest?--Daneto (talk) 13:14, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Blocking as we speak. See also  and follow up posts,  - calling a different editor's posts vandalism,  - removing a post from his talkpage. This attitude we can do without. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:26, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And he's just repeated that entire last post in his unblock appeal. Anyone else what to have a go? Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:43, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Attention towards user Evlekis
Undoing my edits, looks like edit waring to me. Majuru (talk) 20:38, 22 November 2011 (UTC) , Talk page, , , Talk page , , ,


 * Please note that edits such as this and this gave me reasonable ground to suspect that the user does not make constructive edits as these were indeed cases of sneaky vandalism - I use the term sneaky in that these can go unnoticed for long periods of time. This is consistent with all other attempts at similar presentations usually conducted by IPs or single issue accounts. If the other edits were mistaken then I shall discontinue with the reverts - but to confirm, there is no edit war. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 22:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Following on, I've reverted myself on as many of the above examples as I could. I really did believe that the edits I made were a form of vandal-combat but if I were mistaken then I apologise. For all matters on the key issues (those in my examples), I believe we can discuss these one to one on our own talk pages - no need here. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 22:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * We should discuss these edits in the light of and harassment . Majuru (talk) 22:30, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

The pronominal block was for an indirect remark that was deemed an attack; that matter is in the past and not relevant, I have not since engaged in unfriendly conversation. I contend that on neither occasion have I harassed another user and I stated the grounds on which I made the edits in question. To this end, I am happy for an admin to investigate Majuru's grievance. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 22:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Your dispute Majuru and Evlekis doesn't qualify as a proper edit-war. Evlekis reverted himself and the discussion is in continuation.-- — ZjarriRrethues —  talk 00:06, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * OK by me, as long as he doesn't engage any more in disruption.Majuru (talk) 15:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Weird activity on fish stubs
This isn't a complaint, and it's not vandalism. I don't know what it is, but the editors won't talk about it, so I thought I'd mention it here. It's a bunch of SPA's editing fish stubs by pasting in what looks like term papers. Here are the three I spotted. It seems like a class project or something, given the sporadic and longterm nature of the editing. I also notified the fish wikproject: &mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 02:07, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Popeye Shiner by
 * 2) Etheostoma neopterum by
 * 3) Luxilus coccogenis by


 * Forgetting for a moment whether they are term papers or not, what is the quality of the articles, in terms of content and references? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * It's really random. At first it was super lousy, now some of them are improving, but they generally include a lot of off-topic material.  Instead of being about the fish, they have sections like "recommendations for management".  They could be turned into good articles, but they really need some guidance.&mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 03:17, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I just went ahead and deleted the entire "Management Recommendation" section in the Popeye Shiner article, and included a detailed edit summary. I don't have the time or desire to go through the rest of these articles, but if the others are like this one, there might be a big problem of an editor, or group of editors, though well intentioned, not writing articles in accordance with the NPOV policies. Quinn <sup style="color:black;">&#10025; STARRY NIGHT  03:55, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking a look. The others are exactly like that one, and I'm sure there are some I haven't found.  It seems that they're working off some kind of template.  I left multiple messages for them asking them to tell their teacher to get in touch, but so far no responses.&mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 04:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

If they won't talk, block them. It is possibly an unregistered school project or something like that done by people who are familiar with how we write articles here. That kind of stuff strays into WP:NOTHOWTO and the like.--Crossmr (talk) 04:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I can't exactly block them. It's amazing how much they won't talk, though.&mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 05:38, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think a temporary block for the accounts involved would probably solve the problem. It might seem harsh, but remember that blocks are preventative, not punitive, and there is clearly a threat to content; as alf said, we don't even know the full extent yet. After getting a block and decent explanation on the talk pages they'll probably get the message that wikipedia isn't the place to write a class project. Or the deadline will pass, they'll all flunk and the danger will pass. Happy days. Basa lisk  <sup style="color:green;">inspect damage ⁄<sub style="color:#CC9900;">berate  06:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * If these are good faith edits to stubs, blocks are grossly excessive. Correct deficiencies through the normal editing process — this should not be an ANI matter at all. I'm just finished watching an hour of Sue Gardner video before the UK Wikipedia Chapter, during which she touched upon the serious issue of Rogue Administrators. Tread lightly around new content creators!!! —Tim ///// Carrite (talk) 08:32, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Carrite. These appear to be good faith edits and I do not see anything here that would require a block. - Hydroxonium (T•C• [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&limit=1&amp;username=Hydroxonium V] ) 12:28, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No communication is a serious issue for any editor, new or old. It's very disruptive especially in the case of controversial edits. It's hard to miss people posting to your talk, even if you're a new user. that big banner is pretty obvious. While their edits may have been made in good faith, so were the attempts made to communicate with them and stop the disruptive behaviour. If they behaviour continues, and they don't respond, blocking is the only choice a responsible administrator can make. There is nothing else to be done with people who refuse communication.--Crossmr (talk) 12:51, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Why? Are they reverting to a version with the bad content?  Why can't you oversight them as an editor instead of getting out your great big disciplinary bit?  Fifelfoo (talk) 12:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I think it is not at all unreasonable to block the members of a badly done school project if you can't otherwise get their attention. Anyone who just dumps essays into article space and doesn't start communicating is fair game for a block. Hans Adler 13:11, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I disagree. Blocking in this situation is excessive.  Jehochman Talk 13:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Reiterating Fifelfoo's point, have they edit-warred with anyone? If not, it would be interesting to see just what grounds there would be for blocking. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:23, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I recently made two fish stubs and was paranoid for a second I agree a blocking is not needed. There are other ways to get their attention before that, and it often takes me more than four hours to reply to a talk page message too. Not unreasonable for a seasoned admin, let alone a newbie. I don't think this ANI report was made with anything other than the best intentions, though. S.G.(GH) ping! 13:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I left messages on the article talk to try to get their attention that way. S.G.(GH) ping! 13:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Newbies may not understand how the talk page works. We need to be more patient, as long as they are not edit warring. Jehochman Talk 14:27, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I definitely think blocks would be a bad, bad idea. I left a note here because I wanted advice on how to get them to talk, not because I wanted anyone blocked.  If I'd known it'd get to this stage, I probably wouldn't have done it.  But anyway, a big part of what editing WP can teach students is the sometimes contentious nature of collaboration, and they're certainly getting a lesson in that.  My feeling is that their stuff must be due this morning, and their teacher will see what's been going on and probably get in touch and it'll all be OK.&mdash; alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 14:39, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * They may not be communicating but it does seem like they are partially getting the mesage. For example User:Lmb213 self removed two of the more problematic sections  which they had added back, I think because they were working on this externally and added the newest version. Also if you look at the edit history there, Lmb213 first appeared in 28 September and then did a small amount of of work until now which supports alf laylah wa laylah idea there's likely a deadline soon. Also this IP 216.96.195.102 once added content after Lmb213 appeared which looks a lot like the stuff Lmb213 has been adding so I think we can guess which university this project is for (unless it's a school not university project and the student was just there for research). Nil Einne (talk) 15:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems this isn't something new. ' and ' suggest it has happened before. Nil Einne (talk) 16:05, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Is there any indication that these accounts may be related to an education program. When the education programs started, this is what it looked like to me.  They looked like SPAs adding term-paper-like material to articles that were common in some way.  Failing/refusing/being unable to converse with other editors was an issue for some IEP students but not many.  I'm not convinced that these accounts belong to students in an education program but the article should probably be checked for copyright violations if they haven't already.  Ol Yeller21  Talktome 20:26, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Yeah revert them first, and if they edit war with you, then block them. causa sui (talk) 22:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The IP address (216.96.195.102) provided by User:Nil Einne traces back to the University of Tennessee. --64.85.214.213 (talk) 13:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Title
Does anyone else think "Weird activity on fish stubs" is the most surrealistic AN/I section header we've had in a while? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I thought something was fishy. Alexandria (chew out) 21:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Could be worse - could have been weird tasting fish sticks... - The Bushranger One ping only 21:57, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll try not to take that as a challenge to come up with something surrealisticker next time...&mdash; alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 22:02, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I figured initially that fish stubs are something you would have with tater tots. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:27, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Could have been weirder ... someone with a stubby and a fish ...? No more visuals, please. ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 01:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Holy mackerel! - The Bushranger One ping only 04:11, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll have the fish stubs with a side of US Congress-defined culinary vegetables, please. Lady  of  Shalott  05:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Unless you're Australian like me, in which case a stubby is a short 375mL beer as opposed to a long neck which is a tall 375mL 750ml beer. Hmmm is that a red herring I smell? --Blackmane (talk) 10:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This particular Victorian Aussie always called a 750ml bottle a longneck - stubbie was always the 375 ml, regardless of neck length. My $.02. Colon el  Tom 09:07, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This Aussie *points at self* fails at typing about beer. I even struck myself out!--Blackmane (talk) 17:14, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * No. Not even if it included a bicycle. Now, had the section header mentioned melting clocks or burning giraffes, then that might be considered Surreal -- but in a Spanish sort of way. -- llywrch (talk) 22:30, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Need assistance regarding a user who continues to troll Cung Le articles
Hi, I just wanted to know if you can help edit or help me contact someone regarding a specific user who refuses to acknowledge any proof that I have provided regarding a recent error by the UFC.

The specific user in question is Glock17gen4. His only evidence is a picture based on a mistake by UFC production, where MMA fighter Cung Le has already responded that he did not know about, yet Glock17gen4 refuses to accept that and continues to revert Cung Le's Nationality as a current Vietnamese national.

I have provided significant proof in both discussions at the UFC 139 and Cung Le's articles. Please take a look. Cung Le has acknowledged both his American nationality and his Vietnamese heritage (especially with the 3 striples flag which represents the fallen Saigon). I hope you can help. Both his website at CungLe.com and UFC.com profile describe him as a Vietnamese-American and he quoted as calling himself an American Wushu champion. Glock17gen4 seems to not understand the differences between Nationality and Ethnicity. He continues to only use that one picture as his proof. PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 23:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I am looking into this and hope to resolve this issue. Feel free to step in if necessary. — cyberpower  ( Talk to Me )( Contributions ) 00:34, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Legal threat
After being blocked for WP:3RR on a WP:BLP issue, User:Glock17gen4 posted this on his talk page - followed by this. I have indef'd per WP:NLT, but would appreciate review here. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:39, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And following this gem, talk page access revoked... - The Bushranger One ping only
 * Good block, let's move on. Drmies (talk) 03:17, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. A user naming himself after a handgun is to be watched. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:29, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think we have a winner. "U mad broe" <== Love the grammar. Ah, well, we be editing. <b style="color:#00C">⋙–Ber</b><b style="color:#66f">ean–Hun</b><b style="color:#00C">ter—►</b>  03:45, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Right. Since when is "bro" spelled with an "e", like if Dan Quayle were texting. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:48, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Footnote: he sent me an email complaining about unfair blocking, saying the legal threats were a joke, and wanting to "continue" quality contributions. I pointed him on his talk page to the unblocking email address. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:27, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Personal attack in conjunction with original research by User:Natty4bumpo
Natty4bumpo has attacked me here by claiming I adhere to "birther ideology". This is in conjunction with his efforts to add blatant original research at Natural-born-citizen clause of the U.S. Constitution. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:05, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks to me like you are jumping the gun. You should first ask politely for a retraction. If that fails, consider Wikiquette assistance.-- SPhilbrick  T  16:29, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I do not accept SPhilbrick's suggestion. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:33, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You should reconsider. There is a reason those boards exist and if you chose not to use them, then the admins here will likely chose to ignore your complaint.  Follow the process.  Being called a "birther", at least from my point of view, is pale in comparison to the kind of personal attacks that would require a block without any attempt at dispute resolution.--v/r - TP 17:07, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As PAs go, this is very minor and recommend admins close this as too unimportant to waste any more time on. As for Jc3s5h, I recommend that you just ignore it.  Sometimes it's easier to focus on the issue instead of getting side-tracked.  A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:21, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Is this a legal threat?
Thus keyed Natty4bumpo: "We can always take it to a real court if you like." Jc3s5h (talk) 16:39, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think the equivalent of "so, sue me" counts as a legal threat. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:03, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree.--v/r - TP 17:05, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Especially as it was escalated very quickly to AN/I; Jc3s5h as you were advised above, the best recourse in these situations is simply to ignore comments like that. --Errant (chat!) 17:06, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * That's not a legal threat. As regards the "birther" stuff, is that a conclusion he jumped to, or do you in fact believe that Obama is not a citizen? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * To the best of my knowledge, the State of Hawaii does not issue digitally signed birth certificates, so the only way for me to receive one is if someone sends me an official paper certified copy. I think the president has more important things to spend money on than mail out 300,000,000 pieces of paper. Jc3s5h (talk) 01:55, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hence you deny being a "birther", and the other guy just jumped to that conclusion because he didn't like getting his analysis zapped from the article. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:55, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Natty4Bumpo was editing that article rather tendentiously from what I can tell by the edit summaries, and is currently blocked 2 days for edit warring. He says he is washing his hands of that particular article, so if he sticks to it, perhaps the situation will ease up. 67.117.144.140 (talk) 10:04, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Personal Attack from IP 174.91.7.34 and 174.91.4.207
I am reporting several blatant personal attacks against me by these two IPs who are obviously the same person. Here are Diffs:

       

Need I say more? --<small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #660066;padding:1px;"> ḾỊḼʘɴίcả •  Talk  •  I DX for fun!  19:23, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Neither of these IPs have edited for over five hours. Do you have any other diffs? They have probably already moved on to another IP, or may have stopped editing. --Dianna (talk) 20:12, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the editor got the point after I posted the final warning for personal attacks. Hopefully it has stopped. --<small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #660066;padding:1px;"> ḾỊḼʘɴίcả •  Talk  •  I DX for fun!  05:32, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Spoke too soon. It continues., UGH--<small style="white-space:nowrap;border:1px solid #660066;padding:1px;"> ḾỊḼʘɴίcả  •  Talk  •  I DX for fun!  05:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In future, bear in mind that a changing IP address per dynamic IP does not constitute sockpuppetry. Basa lisk  <sup style="color:green;">inspect damage ⁄<sub style="color:#CC9900;">berate  11:08, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It does if they're pretending to be a different user each time. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:53, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected Basa lisk  <sup style="color:green;">inspect damage ⁄<sub style="color:#CC9900;">berate  13:36, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Though final warned, keeps adding unsourced defamatory content to Eleonora Bruzual. &mdash;&thinsp;Racconish&thinsp;Tk 13:53, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Shot across the bow fired. Salvio  Let's talk about it! 14:16, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Good. Thanks &mdash;&thinsp;Racconish&thinsp;Tk 14:30, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Daicaregos & GoodDay


On the 19th Daicaregos left a message for me asking whether I saw user:GoodDay's editing on biographies as waranting a block. I don't see it that way and recomended dispute resolution or here or ArbCom. Now while I agree that GD has (and I've crticized GD for having) a less than perfect atitude to others and a sometimes counterproductive last wordiness I don't see him acting in bad faith (and neither of these matters are blockable anyway). Let me underline here that I'm not defending or condemning GD's actions - I see this as a content dispute & using the block button would be inappropiate (see full discussion here. A day after I refused to block GD, Daicaregos made this post to WP:WikiProject Ireland which is a gross misinterpretation of my post here and of the situation itself where GD only went over the 1rr limit (he did not make "a second (or a third, fourth etc.) revert within 24 hours" as Dai is suggesting I said see these diffs revert breach self-revert). This an attempt to attack me and is beng undertaken because I didn't block on demand. There is a long running and obviously personally issue btwn Dai and GD but Dai's last post is unacceptable and demonstrates a serious battle ground mindset. I'd be happy with the post simply being striken but this wider issue (the interaction btwn GD & Daicaregos) needs eyes on it & needs de-escalation-- Cailil  talk 02:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * One could argue that Daicaregos' post calls for a warning that WP:Discretionary sanctions will be imposed next time Dai makes a disruptive post like that. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 05:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it was a mistake, and he should be given a chance to withdraw it. He is a very good record on content and article creation compared with GoodDay who would try the patience of a saint.   He went OTT in his response and frustration but I think Cailil is right, that conflict needs more eyes on it.  When good editors get into that mindset the community needs to work with them if possible.  -- Snowded  TALK  10:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree Snowded hence I'd be happy if it were striken, but Sarek is also right - Dai needs to realize that continuing in this vein is a cul de sac-- Cailil  talk 13:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * He is taking a wikibreak Cailil, I talked with him off line.  He has had enough of the drama and he won't be the first good content editor to do that.  -- Snowded  TALK  20:36, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In fairness Snowded (and I relaize that Dai might have fallen prey to the red mist) that aint good enough. He can't use WP to vent and he can't go around misrepresenting the situation WRT ArbCom resolutions, their interpretation, and how sysops enforce them. Either Dai redacts his comments and we leave it at that or we will be forced to get formal regarding his violation of WP:POINT-- Cailil  talk 22:48, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think he plans logging on in the immediate future. I'd suggest just deleting the comment but its obviously your call.   You're one of the few admins who understands the wider context here and has taken action in the past when it was needed so I will trust to your judgement.  -- Snowded  TALK  07:07, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Comments about GD

 * I've popped out of retirement for a short while to enable me to come here and make a point. Cailil, do you remember this conversation on your talk page.





You see there that you have warned GoodDay that if he ever again looks for a fight you or another sysop will take action to prevent his disruption. Over the last few days you were shown GoodDay doing just that. Apart from the diffs that Dai showed you of his disruptive actions I should you this diff were I quote a line from the Scottish poet Robert Burns to GoodDay. Myself and GoodDay are certainly not on the best of terms but even then, I was a little surprised that he would go straight to the Robert Burns article and make his pov change to it. That was definately a dig at me and not something he would have thought of if I hadn't mentioned Burns poem. He was for sure trying to wind me up and perhaps start a "fight" as he would put it. What most surprises me is that after issuing him a warning for picking fights you could not see the same thing happening again. Remember, for a good while he denied picking a fight with Dai until his eventual confession you see above. Carson101 (talk) 17:06, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * That's an OTT breach of AGF on your part, Carson. Do you have proof, that I was "looking for a fight" with you, making a "dig" at you & trying to "wind" you up? Also, what's with the cloak & dagger method? You come out of retirement to attack me & then retire again. GoodDay (talk) 20:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:DUCK does come into play eventually GoodDay. As per AGF you only need to assume good faith until you have been shown otherwise, and I think everyone has been shown time and again that you go around just to start trouble. You have quite the reputation of doing it so I think AGF has pretty much flown out the window at this point. -DJSasso (talk) 20:46, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You're biased in these discussons, per our disagreements on usage of diacritics. GoodDay (talk) 20:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Doesn't mean I am not right. It those sorts issues that actually prove my point. -DJSasso (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You haven't prooved Carson's charge, yet. GoodDay (talk) 22:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * GoodDay is always quick with the AGF call maybe it is time he demonstrated good faith with his actions. Mo ainm  ~Talk  22:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Carson & Mo, let me remind you this thread is not defending or condemning GD it states that the interaction between he and Dai needs eyes on it. It is also about how Dai behaved with his last few edits - nobody has the right to do what Dai has done regardless of how angry they feel. Furthermore Carson it is stretching it to say GD was targeting you personally with the Burns edit (which by the way is beyond the remit of the RFAR on Ireland article names etc). Please take a step back and as has been suggested multiple times if you have an issue with how GD is acting open an RFC-- Cailil  talk 22:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And what about an eye on GoodDay and numerous other editors maybe an eye is need there also. Mo ainm  ~Talk  23:00, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This isn't a RFC/U on me, so please stop treating it as such. In truth, both Daicaregos & I shouldn't be posting here. He's on wiki-break, but I had to show up here - due to the 'pile on'. GoodDay (talk) 23:04, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Mo tone it down. GD stop taking the bait. This is not a cage fight. Mo, Dai has been offered a very reasonable way to resolve the situation he created (simply redact/strike it) - if you want to help encourage him to take it-- Cailil  talk 00:03, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think Dai was venting inappropriately - I don't see anybody disagreeing with that. But I also see and understand and have some sympathy for the underlying reasons that brought this about.  It stems from "the problem with GoodDay".  Sure, he's not a 10 on the Richter scale, but it's at least a steady 5 of constant opinions and commentary, not based on references to guidelines or policy, but based solely on GoodDay's world view and opinion.  I have some sympathy for GoodDay - but he can't seem to help himself.  I doubt if he fully understands the problem.  I suggest GoodDay (and the project) would benefit enormously from being banned from making comments on any talk pages unless he refers to policy or guidelines, and the ban will expire when he has made an arbitrary number (20, 30, whatever) of such comments.  The reasons is to help GoodDay and others understand that placing provocative one-liner comments on Talk pages, based solely on personal opinion, is easily misinterpreted.  --HighKing (talk) 01:37, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That seems like a good approach if it can be made to work. The frustration that many editors have with GoodDay is nothing to do with the content of his comments - it's to do with the fact that they are inevitably based on solely his own opinions, rather than on factual evidence; that he repeats the same opinions time after time after time; and (almost incidentally) that he frequently flips from one position to another.  His individual comments are not necessarily unduly disruptive in themselves - it's the sheer weight of them and their repetitiveness, coupled with a patent inability to listen and learn.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Whether it's provocation or not depends solely upon the reader and it is not always as provocative as made out by the same group of editors. A simple solution is to simply ignore GoodDay if you think it's provocation - no-one is forcing anyone to reply to him. If GoodDay is guilty of trolling with some of his proposals and comments, then surely his objectors are just as guilty or trolling with their continued jumping on the bandwagon to castigate GoodDay and campaigns for him to be topic-banned or worse. The continued lack of AGF and civility towards GoodDay warrant action never mind action on GoodDay.

However Daiceragos is guilty of uncalled for outbursts before that breach civility and AGF for example: this. I suggested he strike the uncalled abuse however he never did. - i think this is possibly irrelevant to this exact discussion so i'm making it small and striking it.

A simple solution is for Daiceragos (and the rest of the group) and GoodDay to ignore each other and not respond to each other unless it is purely civil and AGF and to the point on something to do with an article. If they fail then give them a block or topic-ban or something as a punishment. Mabuska (talk) 15:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Shenanigans over at Lara Croft Tomb Raider: The Cradle of Life
Over the last few months various IP editors have continued to add an iMDB goof to the article:


 * 1
 * 2
 * 3
 * 4
 * 5
 * 6

And this one today:
 * 7

There's been no attempt at discourse, not even after I started a discussion on the talk page.

So, does this count as vandalism? Disruptive editing? Or simply a content dispute? I feel that I've been reasonably courteous, but also wonder if I'm approaching 3rr, in spirit, if not letter of the law.

IP addresses informed.

Advice taken please. a_man_alone (talk) 17:49, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't WP:RFP be a better place.--199.91.207.3 (talk) 18:26, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't really want to request page protection, don't think it's justified (yet) as there are generally lots of good IP edits.  a_man_alone (talk) 15:27, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The information being added is unsourced. Check out Template_messages/User_talk_namespace.  Most IP editors aren't aware that talk pages exist until you leave a message for them.  Many also are not aware of WP:CITE, WP:RS, and WP:NOR.  I've left a uw-unsourced warning on the most recent IP's talk page.  In the future, find an appropriate message template (do not use uw-vandalism unless their edit meets WP:VAN) and leave a message on their talk page.  Ian.thomson (talk) 18:33, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Suspected sockpuppetry at Francis Boulle
I suspect sockpuppetry at Francis Boulle due to numerous identical promotional/ PR-style edits at the page carried out by several single purpose IP addresses as well as by User:Greenfields65 (Also an SPA, bar creating a redirect page to francis boulle). However, I am unable to open a sock investigation (possibly because I am an IP user myself). 89.100.150.198 (talk) 03:43, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Why would you think that and  would have something in common? Seriously... True, there are a ton of IP edits--in fact, I think it warrants semi-protection given PR as well as BLP concerns (there's some vandalism as well), but that would take you, dear IP, out of the equation. I think you have a case, but I'd like to see what others are suggesting. Drmies (talk) 04:36, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree, I hear some quacking, the IP's are sort of hit-and-miss, semi-protect per BLP would appear to be appropriate. Skier Dude  ( talk ) 04:58, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, Gretchen Rossi, to name just another starlet like Boulle, gets a redirect, not an article--and Boulle doesn't have more coverage than she does (outside of the TV show, he made a website--great). I'm going to turn his resume/article into a redirect. If needs be I will semi-protect it; this person simply doesn't have the notability yet. Drmies (talk) 18:51, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Possible legal threat.
User:Stevenklien has posted the following legal threat on  User:GiantSnowman talk page. He is on Holiday and as this is a legal threat thought i better report it. Edinburgh  Wanderer  19:39, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * No question it's a legal threat, and I've advised the user to retract it or he will be blocked. There is no compromise on legal threats. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I see he's been indef'd and also advised who to contact if he's got valid concerns. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:22, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

RfC Closure
Hello! It seems that the Wikipedia community has voiced its support of the proposition at this RfC, which has been open since 8 November 2011. Could an administrator please kindly close the RfC? With regards, AnupamTalk 20:37, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

IP making dubious edits, refusing to cite sources
constantly adds unsourced information to various BLPs and other articles, mostly residences and birthplaces. Some edits are obviously dubious (made-up location on caption, fake citation), a couple of times they've changed what they're adding within a minute, which looks to me like they're making it up as they go along. Has ignored multiple requests and warnings to cite sources. I'm sure it's one person using this IP throughout, and the same person has been making edits like this from similar IPs for months now (same false citation: ), also think it's the same IP editor I raised here. January ( talk ) 20:44, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Spam only account


not a high volume account, but he's only made edits to promote some site, and despite talk on his talk page and reverts with edit summaries, he's apparently going to continue.--Crossmr (talk) 07:11, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You should report it to WP:AIV, not here, then, I believe. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * They won't touch it over there; not enough warnings and/or actual vandalism, and no urgency to stop it. I reported an account once here and nothing ever happened. Good luck. Doc   talk  09:30, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I've just issued a level 4 warning; next time they spam, feel free to report them to me and I'll be glad to use my banhammer. Salvio  Let's talk about it! 14:11, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I revertlisted the link, XLinkBot will keep a bit of an eye on this (until the account becomes autoconfirmed in the eyes of XLinkBot). I do agree that this is a bit thin for calling it a 'spam only account', but it does start to look like it - and though I hope that editors heed remarks made to them, I know that that hardly ever happens (obviously, that is especially true for spammers).

Regarding WPSPAM - most of those are just reports, there is by far not enough manpower to handle all that (and the same volunteers also keep an eye on the white and blacklists and on the external links noticeboards) - I could scream 'admin backlog' again, but I know that will not help either. Do note, that if it persists, and there is an old report, the chances of it being handled on a later occasion is then significant without too much discussion. Making sure that spammers ánd their links are reported (the link-tracking above does just that) and documented is a good beginning, it makes it easier to track things back to users. Warning the accounts with a uw-spam4im also helps (and XLinkBot also keeps that into account when reverting). --Dirk Beetstra T C 10:03, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If there's a pattern of spamming and these are not legitimate sources for referencing articles then someone could add them to the local or the global blacklist. Night Ranger (talk) 17:28, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It used to be when an account was used for nothing but spam (over a year) we just blocked and forgot about it.--Crossmr (talk) 22:45, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That would be the sensible outcome. Adding every spammed URL to the blacklist is not really sustainable. On the other hand, the user has made a good statement here. Johnuniq (talk) 01:18, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld
This user has made threats toward me and accused me with libel and slander per user talk:George Ho. I don't know what else to do. --George Ho (talk) 20:57, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Just in case: User talk:George Ho ([ history] · [ last edit]) . This person is making vicious messages toward me.  --George Ho (talk) 21:02, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

"This user has made threats toward me and accused me with libel and slander per ". Um, no rather I am getting irritated by your continous automated drilled spam messages like these every few minutes over images you could quickly repair/fix yourselves and nominating articles for deletion in quick succession like this and this without approaching me and asking to expanding them kindly. And yes if you continue to act in a purely deletionist fashion rather than doing something constructive I will not tolerate it and will makes things difficult until you start behaving like a decent wikipedian with positive intent.♦ Dr. Blofeld  21:06, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't see any libel, slander or threats from Dr. Blofeld at the link given. Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  21:06, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Check . This may help.  --George Ho (talk) 21:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I'm not checking a contribs list in case there's a threat. Post a diff, please? Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  21:32, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, I've read it - where's the 'libel and slander' - ? --Cameron Scott (talk) 21:07, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If it is not 'libel and slander', then it must be a threat from that user. The recent post in this section by this user shall prove any kind.  --George Ho (talk) 21:12, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ho, seriously you are causing disruption with your course of editing and your reporting of me here. Unlike yourself I am constructive . Perhaps if you started working with me and other editors to build the best possible encyclopedia we can instead of trying to delete everything things would be nicer for you. All you have to do is kindly ask for me to expand an article or correct an image. Spamming me and then ignoring what I have to say and causing trouble here is not doing you any favors. Regulars/veterans here do not appreciate being drilled automated messages in quick succession.♦  Dr. Blofeld  21:37, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * More importantly; what one earth is this rant about. An AFD is supposed to consist of the rationale for deletion - not a rant about the person who created the page (same with the other AFD's I checked). Blofeld gives you some good advice; perhaps slow down and consider if there might be a better approach here than simply tagging - for example if a FUR seems possible for an image, you should consider adding it rather than tagging. --Errant (chat!) 21:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

User:DGG recently had trouble with him over something. The history of his user page implies he has a history of prodding and mass spamming. Yes Short Brigade Harvester Boris "wearing down through score-settling" is certainly an accurate description...♦ Dr. Blofeld  22:18, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Is there an admin with the cojones to do the right thing and block User:George Ho? According to site policy, making personal battles out of Wikipedia discussions goes directly against our policies and goals. Our administrative procedures are fairly good at rooting out obvious and superficial incivility, but quite poor at dealing with people who wear down others through score-settling and the like. We need to fix that. And we may as well start here. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 22:10, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Personally I'd ditch the rhetorical questions and Wikipedia Review bullshit and ask for action Short Brigade. But maybe you "content writers rule the world" people can't interface with us "process, because we need it" people. Just saying. Pedro : Chat  22:16, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, but what have I done against you? I know the rules of copyright law of Argentina.  If I have done anything to hurt you, I apologize for not notifying you about the laws.  Look, you can stop accusing me of spamming if you don't have proof.  One question: why does anything, including posters, qualify as photos?  --George Ho (talk) 22:45, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No need to keep excusing yourself. Learn the ropes and how things work and you'll understand. You sent me a series of automated drilled message with the same generic text with a deletion threat message at least 10 times in the last few days. I consider that spamming my talk page. I'll assume you are not a native english speaker, given that you appear to have taken what I said about you spamming my talk page as some kind of allegation of serious  libel and slander against you. Yes, Argetine film images need sorting out with correct licences and need a massive amount of work but you are approaching the issue in the wrong way. WHy don't you go through the Argentine film images find those images which you find problematic and make a list at User:Dr. Blofeld/Argentine film images with problems and once done we can both try to sort the license and rationales out. OK? II'm on your side, but you are approaching me in completely the wrong way and reporting me here and creating AFDs out of spite are doing you no favours with me or anybody else here. Apology accpeted, now please show me you are a decent person and we can discuss how to address the image problems on your talk page. I've had enough for today.♦  Dr. Blofeld  23:00, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Proposed solution
Don't come here often, so if I have this wrong, sorry. Am proposing that someone mentor George re: Afd/FfD and the like and that George makes an indication that he's willing to listen to the advice of whoever his mentor might be. We hope (talk) 00:15, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have blocked him to make him stop - his last four hours edits were bad enough, but they seem to be all like that! I'm sure he means perfectly well, but he needs to stop trying to get everything deleted. Maybe a mentor would help. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:31, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Had wanted to suggest something like this not long ago when there was file deletion tagging without notifying the uploader of the problem, but was afraid it might offend. Am now sorry I didn't then, as maybe it wouldn't have turned out as it did. We hope (talk) 00:34, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

IP Address Legal Threat
Does this not count as a legal threat? It's in relation to a number of IPs that have been literally applying a censoring black and red filter over words in the controversy section of the African National Congress article. This has led to the article being protected. Silver seren C 23:58, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, yes, I do believe that it is. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:31, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Blocked & reported to Communications committee/Notifications  Skier Dude  ( talk ) 04:25, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That IP belongs to CERN. Another is in South Africa, and another is in Michigan. I think we've got some proxying going on.— Ryulong ( 竜龙 ) 05:13, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's why I didn't do an indef block, I tried a couple of searches and there were some odd results - didnt come up as a TOR but the port reports were a bit 'wonky' (for lack of a better term). If the legit CERN requests an unblock, I doubt there'd be any issue in doing so.  Skier Dude  ( talk ) 05:27, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Looking at a discussion on the article's talk page, it looks like these "censorship" edits are a form of political protest in opposition to a bill the ANC recently introduced, rather than an actual misguided attempt to censor the article. The vandalism in particular has been covered in the news here: http://memeburn.com/2011/11/anc-wikipedia-page-‘wikibombed’-in-secrecy-bill-protest/. As such, the IP's legal threat probably isn't serious; it's more of a sarcastic political statement mocking the ANC. The IP's edits are obvious vandalism and a violation of WP:SOAP but considering the circumstances I don't think the legal threat was serious. PatternSpider(talk) 09:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As the threatened user, it didn't strike me as a legal threat in the WP:NLT sense given the context of the Protection of State Information Bill, though I can see how other editors could interpret it as one. It is, as you say, a case of soapboxing. I have no objection to an unblock, particularly since the article in question is now semi-protected. (Incidentally, it's not surprising that similar edits are coming from many places; "censoring" things with black boxes has become a South African Twitter/Facebook meme in the last few days, and the WP vandalism has been mentioned in the mainstream media -, ). - htonl (talk) 10:29, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Off2riorob has retired
Perhaps someone can talk some sense into him, I think he is overreacting. Count Iblis (talk) 00:37, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * He has also specifically requested that others do not post on his talk to discuss it; that should be respected while he works things out for himself. --<b style="color:Navy;">Jezebel's</b> Ponyo bons mots 00:44, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, just leave him be :) He may well come back. --Errant (chat!) 00:44, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the people who need the most sense talked into are the ones who brought this about. Yes, it seems that Rob was provoked into breaking WP:3RR, but given the relentless POV-pushing that went on regarding the article concerned, I'm not surprised. There are many reasons to object to efforts to slant issues, but relentless campaigns to insert irrelevant references regarding ethnicityand religion into BLPs of politicians are surely amongst the most serious (I've just had to remove a false 'Religion Jewish' statement from the infobox yet again ). AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:49, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * "This page is for reporting and discussing incidents on the English Wikipedia that require the intervention of administrators"


 * I saw that at the top of the page. But I see it is instead a forum. Cool.  Jabbsworth   01:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Off2riorob does a terrific amount of work on BLPs, and it is a shame he gets such a hard time from quite a few people - I think I personally would have been more lenient on the 3RR thing. Hopefully a short time away will help and he'll be back - but for now, I agree with the suggestion to respect his privacy and his Talk page request. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 01:01, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I"ve never seen a dramaboard regular post a retirement announcement without coming back quickly, so I wouldn't worry about Rob. 67.117.144.140 (talk) 01:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I also think the retirement is an overreaction (although like 67.* I am not overly concerned), and I also think that posting this here was de facto admissible given the way ANI is used in practice. However, I would like to point out that if Off2riorob was protecting BLP in this case, then it's far from obvious. Both versions contain precisely the same information, except that in the version to which Off2riorob reverted, it was organised less logically. Unless I have missed something, the sources used were also precisely the same. If he had any valid BLP concern, he should have articulated it on the talk page. Instead, he insisted that the various editors who he reverted should discuss on the talk page per BRD. This is a valid argument, but not in your 6th revert in 6 hours. Maybe this was some kind of trap, but nobody forced him to walk into it. Hans Adler 02:04, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * @Jabbsworth: You have already thoroughly explained your lack of understanding of key principles above, and there is no need for any expansion. It is quite normal for a report like this when it concerns an extremely valuable editor (Off2riorob) and their understandable reaction to a stupid block. Rather than following a "bureaucracy must be followed" line, for a case like this, Off2riorob should have been plainly told on their talk page that regardless of the merits of the case, another revert would result in a block. For anyone without the background knowledge, Off2riorob is Wikipedia's primary defense against BLP violations where reverting past 3RR against a team of misguided editors is sometimes necessary (read WP:BLP before claiming that WP:3RR triumphs). Johnuniq (talk) 01:41, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * BLP is very important, and I know from experience that trying to defend a BLP can really get one riled up. Hopefully, Rob will take a few days off to recharge his batteries and let the stress fade away. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:05, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Why on Earth is this being discussed here? I hope someone will just close this thread.  Chzz  ► 03:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit war re linking at WP:BLPN
I don't have a dog in the hunt, but there is an edit war over external links in comments at WP:BLPN - see, ,. Admin intervention is obviously required. Hipocrite (talk) 15:32, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * - User:Jabbsworth - was in a content dispute at BLPn and he went and wrote off wiki content that is hosted on a non WP:RS and he is now repeatedly linking to it as though it has authority - a clearer attempt to game the project could hardly be found. Off2riorob (talk) 15:36, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Edit warring - at a noticeboard none the less - is not behavior that contributes to a stable encyclopedia, regardless of how right you are or are not. Hipocrite (talk) 15:38, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * User:Jabbsworth - is actually a block evading disruptive sockpuppet that has returned to his exact same previous disruption and should not even be editing - Sockpuppet investigations/Ratel - Off2riorob (talk) 15:39, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * No, he's not. Jabbsworth is apparently the only account used by TickleMeister/Ratel, unblocked by Arbitor David Fuchs on 22 July 2011, with the comment "User has promised to edit solely from this account." Hipocrite (talk) 15:44, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Off2riorob saw fit to remove content that was under discussion and to which several editors had partially agreed for inclusion. I merely gave a link to a page elsewhere on the web where the material under discussion could be read. Off2riorob removed the link, and removed it again. I think he should leave this sort of high-handed refactoring of other editor's comments to admins, no? Or is he a de-facto admin here? There are several admins patrolling BLPM, so why does HE have to do the adminning and editing of other user's comments? BTW, I am NOT a block evading sockpuppet. I was cleared by Arbcom to edit.  Jabbsworth   15:47, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think Arbcom can have had all the details, you had no right to create an account whilst blocked and just like Webhamster you are still evading that block - anyway they did not give you permission to return to the exact same disruption on the exact same discussions and articles with the pretense of being a new user. Off2riorob (talk) 4:01 pm, Today (UTC+0)

You're second guessing arbcom now? Desperate much for a win? BTW, I am not Webhamster.  Jabbsworth  16:22, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The editor who insists on linking to an external wiki is errant. Wikipedia does not support linking to external wikis for use as "sources." The external wiki, meanwhile, has material which is considered a WP:BLP violation on Wikipedia by every other current editor on that article (in fact, all "non-socks" for an extended period of time), so posting the link is essentially promulgating the WP:BLP violation - which is deletable in the first place. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:43, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's NOT being used as a SOURCE, as I've explained to you several times now.  Jabbsworth   15:47, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Can you stop linking to off wiki content that you have written yourself. You also did it in this diff in your SPI. Such linking to sources that you have written yourself hosted at locations that are not WP:RS creates a clear COI situation. Off2riorob (talk) 15:56, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * COI? In what way? I'm giving editors a chance to read the material in question, with clickable links, because you removed it from BLPN. It's a convenience issue. It's not meant to be an RS for anything, obviously. The diff link you left in its place was (a) unreadable and (b) full of dead links. Why don't you explain your high-handed deletion of my text, even after some editors agreed it was usable in parts?  Jabbsworth   16:03, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I left that detail on the BLPN at the time - you said, "If nobody objects"..."I will now put the material here for consideration" -  As Collect and I objected and as the content had previously been removed for BLP concerns it is not recommended to repost it at BLP, a diff is recommended - which I left. Off2riorob (talk) 16:12, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The rightness or wrongness of the underlying argument is not relevant. The problem is the edit warring. Hipocrite (talk) 15:44, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "I don't have a dog in the hunt," - give over. Off2riorob (talk) 15:47, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

BLP covers projectspace as well, and linking to documents which we wouldn't consider to be appropriate to link to in the context of a BLP is just as inappropriate in projectspace as it is in an article. If Jabbsworth were merely misinformed about BLP then so be it, but he's apparently got enough history on Wikipedia that he should be expected to understand what BLP entails. Off2riorob should likewise know that edit warring does nothing but create drama, and should have disengaged and taken it here. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 16:14, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thumper, not with you, as I explained the link is for convenience (people cannot read diffs with any facility), and the material linked is all sourced separately. We can argue about the sourcing, but the material is in at least 3 published and as yet legally unchallenged books. It was also carried by WP for many months (years?0.  Jabbsworth   16:19, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * BLP advises caution. If multiple editors are objecting to a given text because they believes that it contains content which is problematic under BLP (how long Wikipedia retained said text is irrelevant, by the way) then the correct thing to do is not to link to it. Going out of your way to do so, and then edit warring over it, was a very bad idea. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 16:29, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Point taken, but that leaves unanswered the issue of prejudice by omission. IOW, by removing the text from view, and leaving it in diff format (which many editors will not bother viewing), is prejudicial to my case. Moreover, the diff contained at least 8 broken links that I had repaired in the text I posted. I think forbidding a link to a sourced page elsewhere, that contain data printed in numerous extant books, may be carrying prudence to an extreme. Don't you?  Jabbsworth   16:39, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No. Find it in a reliable source, and link to that.--v/r - TP 17:04, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Fine, I could simply make a list of links to sources used in the deleted section (eg this one ) and allow readers to visit each source and decide for themselves. What would then happen is that the links would be deleted from from the page by opposing editors on BLP grounds (I've seen this happen before). So back to square one. Any other suggestions?  Jabbsworth   22:52, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with TParis. There is nothing to suggest that SourceWatch meets RS requirements for normal wikipedia information much less anything involving BLP even if it is on the talk page.  At least when I argued against using Stephen Barrett as a source I used reasonable language regarding the sources I did use which is why Off2riorob supported me in that case (see Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive97).  By contrast Jabbsworth, you are using a wiki article.  That doesn't even meet the reliable source hurdle so obviously it is going to do a major crash and burn when dealing with a BLP so why on earth even try to use the thing?!?--BruceGrubb (talk) 17:34, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

This is a running MO for advocacy in past accounts. In the past, after crating a sockpuppet, an external link. The talk pages were peppered with links offsite or to copies on personal subpages (see Talk:Aspartame/Archive 5). Inappropriate use of color, font size, and other means of weighting comments to make advocacy stand out on talk pages has been a running problem.

Not to get too far off-topic, but there is a long-standing practice justifying behaviors by accusing editors of COI (see Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive652. Nothing has changed: —Novangelis (talk) 17:13, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, your comment is off-topic. But since you raise it, I made the offer to stop editing Aspartame controversy for a link to all the material you and a small cabal of editors were excluding, because it became clear to me that there was no sourcing, no matter how good, that would get that data onto the page. 'I ask readers to go to SourceWatch and read the page on Aspartame there.' 80%+ of the information on that page was vetoed by Novangelis and his cabal from a controversy page, fer heaven's sake, (Aspartame controversy) on grounds of "weight" or not meeting wp:MEDRS (despite being sourced from peer reviewed studies). You can use these reasons to exclude almost anything from almost any page, if you have enough like-minded editors teaming up with you. So in desperation to get the information to readers, and seeing that screeds of data were being excluded from the page by sheer bloody-minded stonewalling of me and numerous other editors (again, see the Talk page and especially the archives), I offered a deal on the link. Linking to subpages on wikipedia from a Talk page? No problem with that, not sure why you raise it. Using fonts and colors to emphasize points on a Talk page? Now this is a sin too? You are sounding desperate. As far as COI accusations, I'll let the data and Talk pages speak for themselves. Pretty blatant from my POV.  Jabbsworth   22:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Anyone who is in a position to use going away as a bargaining chip, pretty much by definition, must have reached the point of tendentiousness; anyone who does it right after creating a sockpuppet, more so. Prior spamming of personal versions after failing to gain consensus is pertinent to the current case, and the ongoing use of personal attacks as justification is against policy. The aspartame articles have been reviewed several times (1, 2, 3)and your unsupported COI accusations (never on the COI noticeboard) keep coming. The only (at least to my recollection) filed complaint offered no diffs and the only so-called evidence offered was that if you changed one letter and rearranged an editor name, you got "lobby". While the NPA violations are not the immediate issue of this thread, a long-standing history of non-collegial behavior is relevant.Novangelis (talk) 23:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Let's see: Tendentious editing is defined as "a manner of editing which is partisan, biased or skewed taken as a whole". Since you excluded literally hundreds of well-sourced facts about aspartame from the aspartame controversy page, you fit that description to a "T". According to wp:Tendentious editing, tendentious editors frequently "dispute the reliability of apparently good sources". Wow, that describes you perfectly. If the cap fits, wear it. Once again, I ask any admin to please go to SourceWatch and review the long and detailed page on Aspartame there, then reflect on why Novangelis excluded almost all of it from Aspartame controversy. This is one of the clearest cases of tendentious editing, on his part, that one could imagine.  Jabbsworth   00:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The more likely resolution is that SourceWatch will end up on the blacklist if it's being used to circumvent our own content policies. In fact, consider this a final warning for linking to publicly editable pages as evidence or the like: you are plainly capable of understanding why this is inappropriate and yet have continued to do so over multiple accounts. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 00:41, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Please point me to the rule that states that Talk page discussions cannot point to publicly editable pages where sourced information is viewable. Thanks.  Jabbsworth   01:19, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The rule is WP:BLP. Disregard it if you like, but the fact that no one has supported your edits here should lead to the expectation that no one will support an unblock if the final warning above were disregarded. Johnuniq (talk) 01:46, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * BLP states "External links about living persons, whether in BLPs or elsewhere, are held to a higher standard than for other topics". The "elsewhere" refers to article space, not Talk space. If it also refers to Talk, and even User space, it should be made explicit. Secondly, several editors have supported, at BLPN, the inclusion of some of this material, so it is simply incorrect to say that "no one has supported your edits".  Jabbsworth   03:10, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Ah, hold on, I now see a section called wp:BLPTALK. That's new, don't remember that one the last time I read BLP, which was a while ago. Ok, my bad, no more links to external BLPs. I'll simply supply the name of the site and advise readers to peruse the data there, and see if any of it is worth including.  Jabbsworth  03:16, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and no one will think that a strategy ("simply supply the name of the site and advise readers to peruse the data there") would defeat the intent of WP:BLP. Johnuniq (talk) 03:39, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey, this is not a court of law, so quit wikilawyering the issue. It is allowable, prima facie, to give a verbal description of where material may be read. It's done every day on wikipedia, on numerous talk pages.  Jabbsworth   04:33, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * While I share you concerns, it seems a moot point in this specific case as a few users besides Johnuniq have mentioned the site in discussing potential COI problems.Nil Einne (talk) 04:59, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * BLP has specifically mentioned talk pages since 22 April 2006. While this is not a talk page, I think it's clear anything that applies to talk pages is obviously going to apply to BLP/N. A section on non-article space has existed since 25 November 2007. Perhaps the more important thing to learn here is something similar to what Chris Cunningham said, if multiple editors are objecting to something you are doing you should give consideration to their concerns. As CC said, it doesn't matter so much what the specific policy says but if you haven't read the policy for 5 years or so there's even more reason you should be wary. Nil Einne (talk) 04:29, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A simple direction to BLPTALK would have sufficed. Besides, the text "that is not sourced to a reliable publication" does not apply here. The sources, like books, are mostly solid.  Jabbsworth   04:33, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The point you seem to be missing is 'mostly'. You seem to be linking to a page where some of the material may be okay, but most likely not all of it is. If you want to check the material and bring that which is okay here, that is far more likely to be acceptable, provided you have a resonable definition of what is okay. I'm quite sure BLP has never suggested it was okay to violate BLP provided part of your edits didn't violate BLP. Also if you sought clarification for the problem with your edits but everyone refused to give it then you might have a point. But instead you edit warred against something which had been explicitly mentioned in BLP policy since 25 November 2007 or 22 April 2006 and as has been said, you're an experience user so should know better. Nil Einne (talk) 04:45, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Look, the exact prohibitions of link in non-article space specify "material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced and not related to making content choices" should be excluded. I could make a strong case that all of the material I submitted, and most certainly the general thrust of it (that the subject has been outed as gay by several people in press, books and magazines) is very solidly sourced. And it's certainly related to "content choice". So really, it's arguable whether BLPTALK even applies to this material.  Jabbsworth  04:54, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * You're perfectly entitled to argue that the material is adequately sourced. That does not require directly linking to a revision of the article which contains such sources, and you know this. Wikilawyering over whether BLP covers this in the first place is not likely to work when there are evidently multiple parties with a more solid understanding of the present content of BLP than yourself. Now, if you're no longer edit warring over the link in question then I think we're done here. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:51, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Understood, and I've already issued a mea culpa, even if probably unnecessary, on the link issue, and won't repeat. Thanks. Resolved.  Jabbsworth   13:03, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Again you seem to be missing the problem. It's not okay if the 'general thrust of it' is fine. What we require is all the material is fine. BLP has never suggested that it's okay if some of the material is fine, it's always made it clear it needs to all be fine. If an editor posts a BLP vio in the talk page, it's perfectly acceptable for me to remove their entire post even if some of the material was not a BLP vio and relevant. Alternative in some cases the BLP vio may be removed or I can ask the person to remove the BLP vio themselves (and if they fail, then take action myself). BLPs vios on talk pages don't generally remain simply because some of what the person posted was not a BLP vio, unless the BLP vio is so minor that we ignore it. Even though the site is a wiki, modifying it so it complies with wikipedia's policy on BLP is clearly nonsense therefore the only option is to ban linking to the site.
 * And it's quite questionable if even the general thrust is fine let alone all of it, since the material on that wiki is clearly presented in a highly negative way. The fact that it is sourced is a moot point, you would not have been allowed to present the material on wikipedia talk pages in the way it was presented in that wiki in 2007 nor are you allowed now. So linking to the same material on another site as an attempt to get around BLP prohibitions was no more acceptable in 2007 then it is now. And it's quite questionable if all that material is needed for making content decisions either, a big chunk of it has been rejected by the community before and that site obviously does not present a case for why this was the wrong decision.
 * Furthermore, as a publicly editable wiki, there is no way you can guarantee that the material on the site will forever remain fine even if it is fine at the current time (which as I've said is questionable). While it is true links to news sites can change, this is far less likely to be a problem because if the news site is an RS it likely remains an RS even if it changes and for most news sites, the link will only change at most after a few days not months or years later (ignoring comment sections where it's generally accepted we ignore them), except to die, so it isn't a concern the way it is with another wiki. I've been working at BLP/N for several years and I can say what you linked to has not been acceptable at BLP for that time, no matter how much people tried to wikilawyer around whatever the specific wording at BLP was (and actually I can't remember anyone trying to make an argument like yours). Again, if you have material from there that you feel is not BLP vio, you are welcome to bring it here rather then expecting people to work out which in that mess of stuff which violate BLP on that site you're proposing for here. (Although to be honest from what you've said so far, I don't think we can really trust your judgement on what's okay under BLP.)
 * Nil Einne (talk) 00:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * To summarize each "gobbledegook" said here, at the  BLP/N and at the talk page: the current proposed content is against BLP policy and should not be included nor linked at any place. --  ClaudioSantos¿?   00:24, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * "What we require is all the material is fine" All of it is fine. We may quibble about some of the sourcing, but the content itself is all accurate and valid and has redundant sourcing. Nothing novel was posted, no SYN, no OR, just extracts of books, magazines, and news sources, all making the same point and telling the same story, which is that the subject is gay (a topic deemed worthy of discussion in BLPs like Anderson Cooper). I suggest to you that rather than talk semantics and split hairs here, you surf over to the Matt Drudge page on SourceWatch and careful scrutinize the data there. Then raise your objections, if you still have any. Thanks. As to the community rejecting the material; well no, that's not what has happened. Editors at BLPN said that parts of it were definitely usable. The material was removed from Matt Drudge by after it had been there for a long time and had a degree of consensus for its inclusion. It was restored by numerous editors since removal, but Collect reverted, many times (& now falsely accuses me of being the editors who did the restoring!) And as far as the immediate topic in hand, which is the objection to direct linking, that has been resolved (see my last comment). Not sure why you are beating a dead horse on that.   Jabbsworth   00:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Let see BLP/N: the current consensus is  not to include the current proposed contents (due it violates BLP and UNDUE), but merely one well worded and sourced sentence. I wonder if this last "goobbledegook" can be understood even if one "have shockingly poor reading comprehension skills". Let close the case. -- ClaudioSantos¿?   01:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry but I have no desire to get involved with sourcewatch. However I have already looked at the Sourcewatch link before my first comment hence why I know it's a clearcut BLP vio and always has been. You're right this isn't an ANI issue anymor since you've agreed not to do it, but I did think it important to point out you're claims of this being some new BLP requirement are inaccurate. In case you haven't noticed the SourceWatch link discusses more then the subject being gay, and as I've also said, is written from a negative POV. I'm quite certain if you'd posted the entire sourcewatch content on the talk page (and presuming there was no copyvio concerns), it always would have been considered a BLP vio and legitimately removed. (It is true sometimes we allow such stuff to slide, but just because we do so, it doesn't mean it wasn't a BLP vio or that removing it isn't supported by policy.) BTW, if you acknowledge that people at BLPN have said parts of it were usable, this implies parts of it were not, so it seems you've made my point for me. Nil Einne (talk) 05:42, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok, I'll bite one last time. (1) Only the gay allegations section on that page are germane to the discussion, so why on earth you are now talking about the entire page, which is (yes) negative, is beyond me. SourceWatch do not have a NPOV policy, so they are quite entitled to take a critical look at the subject. (2) The gay allegation section is not a "clearcut BLP vio". That is still being discussed, and if you wish to join the discussion, go to BLPN, not here please. The material in it is sourced to numerous published books (not self-published), so the sourcing for the main facts is solid.  Jabbsworth   05:59, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

This thread clearly touches similar issues as the one I had to start below,. The Wikipedia community has a tendency to oscillate between extremes. It appears that we have now reached the point where quite a few editors read WP:BLP in an unreasonably strict way that makes ordinary discussions on how to deal with BLP topics cumbersome and censors some to the point where they may become practically impossible. -- Not because nobody finds the information, opinion or links which some claim are prohibited even on talk pages, but because the censorship causes reactance, polarisation and disruption each time a certain topic comes up.

Here it appears inappropriate to me to censor the SourceWatch link. Linking to unreliable sources that can inform our editorial decisions and provide inspiration for our own content has always been our standard practice, and there is nothing in WP:BLPTALK to suggest that it was intended to change this beyond what is in reasonable proportion to the, usually very limited, effects on living people that can be caused by a mere discussion. Indeed, the policy says: "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced and not related to making content choices, should be removed, deleted, or oversighted as appropriate." This is very precise language. Material can be censored if it satisfies all of the following conditions: Assuming that the material found under the link in question is contentious (it clearly is about a living person), we need to interpret the last point sensibly. The link points to something that could never be used as a source in article space (except perhaps as a primary source should the source itself become noteworthy). But given the extensive citations in that document to sources some of which are below our standards for BLP claims but in general not dramatically below our RS standards, I think the case "poorly sourced" is the best fit here. It is therefore OK to bring something like that up in a talk page discussion if and only if it is related to making content choices.
 * Contentious.
 * About living persons.
 * Either
 * unsourced, or
 * poorly sourced and not related to making content choices.

Ultimately, a Wikipedia talk page is like a random internet forum in terms of reach, and has essentially the same degree of credibility in the eyes of a naive reader. It would be pointless to overpolice our discussions, and in cases that affect legitimate content-related discussions it is actively harmful and has no basis in policy. Hans Adler 01:31, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for a thoughtful and commonsensical comment.  Jabbsworth   05:59, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * However, one thing that I forgot to add is that the SourceWatch article puts a lot of stress on something which, even if there are sufficiently good sources (which I don't know), could at most barely be mentioned, but can reasonably be seen as a BLP violation in any case. In other ways, such links should be discouraged and countered by other editors with responses saying they are not fully inappropriate, but not censored. I guess my real point here is that for the wiki to function smoothly, borderline cases must be treated as such, not with the same strong reactions that are meant for clear cases. Hans Adler 10:58, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think it can be seen as a BLP vio. I've just re-read BLP again, and it passes all the tests. To quote from BLP as an illustration:


 * Example: A politician well known personality is alleged to have had a gay affair. He or she denies it, but The New York Times several lesser newspapers and 4 published books publish the allegations, and there is a minor public scandal. The allegation belongs in the biography, citing The New York Times books and media as the sources.


 * I cannot see that this is a major problem. The sources are not that bad, especially the books. But this should be on the other noticeboard, Hans.  Jabbsworth   11:27, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * My main point was that it is reasonable to have this discussion and that it is unreasonable, and in fact disruptive and not supported by policy, to stifle it by removing the link in talk space. The clear example in the policy does not support more than a sentence under normal circumstances. All the differences between the present case and the example in the policy together amount to a good case that less may be required here. ("Less" can mean nothing, but could also mean that the topic is brought up indirectly, as in saying in general terms that he was attacked with allegations about his personal life.) But this is in fact not the place for such a discussion. Hans Adler 11:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Micruise
I am too busy, which is why i am making the request here. Please take a look at this user's contributions. He might be uploading images which are copyright violations. Joyson Noel <sup style="font-family:Haettenschweiler; color:#ff0000;"> Holla at me!  11:41, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * They've had enough notifications ... but have not stopped. Blocked for a couple of days hoping for a reply of some variety ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 12:22, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Do we have any Polish-speaking or Armenian editors around?
could use a look-see. It seems like they may be using their user page and user talk page as a sandbox of sorts, perhaps to eventually move certain articles into a Polish-language Wikipedia. Of course, this violates the GFDL for obvious reasons. I don't see any reason to believe this user is terribly fluent in English, and my grasp of Polish is non-existent. Copy-pasting a few random lines of gibberish into Google returned a lot of websites in the .am domain, copy-pasting it into Google Translate told me it was Polish - maybe they're Polish, maybe they're Armenian, I don't know, and my speculation here would be counterproductive. I've nominated User:Sukiasyan Mariam for deletion, came here before doing the same with User Talk. Also see, obviously the same user. No GFDL violations on that account (yet), just some random clueless editing of Apple-related pages. I started with a level 1 page test warning, went back into page history and saw they had been reverted multiple times across two separate accounts, dropped a level 4, then decided to look deeper - and that's what brought me here. Badger Drink (talk) 06:30, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't see any Polish on the user talk (user page got deleted so can't comment on that), nor do I see anything about the Polish wikipedia.  Volunteer Marek   09:35, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * They are translating the article into Armenian (Badger is evidently like my mum and refers to all foreign languages as "polish":):). There is actually no problem with translating an article for another language wiki, but they can't really do it onwiki here, as you then get licensing issues.  I will blank the page and explain in English.  If we have a speaker of Armenian, it might be a kindness to repeat the message in Armenian. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:24, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not a GDFL problem if the "Polish" article links back to the English article. Rklawton (talk) 18:20, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Once you or another admin is sure the editor understands this (giving that she's editing simultaneously from two accounts, I'm not convinced she's an experienced editor) she can have the content back into userspace.

Review request: Protection of List of Doctor Who serials
Hi there. I protected List of Doctor Who serials and restored a pre-editwar version per WP:PREFER but I had previously edited the article and was involved in a discussion regarding the subject for the edit war a few months ago, so I might be considered WP:INVOLVED. As such, I'd wish to request that my actions on said article (and the handling of the related WP:ANEW report concerning one of the editors involved) are reviewed in case I did act incorrectly and if need be reversed. Regards  So Why  12:25, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No issues. ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 13:46, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You're fine. It looks like there is a firmly established consensus on the talk page now though, so it might be worth unprotecting.  NW  ( Talk ) 16:29, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd like to give the users some time to discuss since one of the users involved didn't participate further than pasting a comment from their userpage. Feel free to unprotect at any time though if you disagree. Regards  So Why  16:38, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * You seem to know what's going on better than I, so I'll defer to your judgment.  NW  ( Talk ) 18:13, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Daneto continued
User:Daneto's block is apparently coming-up on review in a day or so (see previous thread). The user, however, seems to be currently edit-warring (with his IP) on the Josip Broz Tito article, restoring his edits. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 17:25, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Malleus again
This disgusting anti-American screed by Malleus is nothing but purely insulting against people from my country (USA) and this kind of bigotry has absolutely no place on this website. That page is acrimonious enough without an editor insulting a nation or certain persons of a nation he chooses to cal in a bigoted manner ...Malleus was previously notified in September that he may face a topic ban on 9/11 related articles...I've seen nothing since to indicate his methodology has changed and this incidence indicates (along with other instances on his usertalk and elsewhere) that his bigotry and ethnocentric thoughts regarding the USA make him unsuited to be editing in this topic area.MONGO 17:37, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd hardly call that a "screed". The incredibly long discussion is fraught with political commentary, much of it probably not conducive to improving the article, but also probably not altogether uncommon in articles of this ilk. FWIW, as an American, I don't find Malleus's comment particularly offensive.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sheesh. There is no bigotry or ethnocentricity there, though I am thinking about giving Malleus a level-2 warning for hyphenating redneck. Drmies (talk) 17:52, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe it was subtle commentary. A stereotypical redneck wouldn't know a hyphen if it poked him in the head. Let us also not forget the missing commas in the flag's colors.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:10, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * A Malleus apologist I am not, but I wouldn't even consider that a particular harsh comment, let alone one befalling WP:CIVIL or anything approaching "bigoted". The only potential pitfall is that editors may consider it an insinuation that anyone who agrees with the present state of the article is a "redneck", but I'd consider that a misreading of his comment. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 17:55, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Cursed watchlist-- someone should give one of those cutesy pink Wikilove thingies dreamed up by the WMF to Mongo for originality and creativity in section headings. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 17:56, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * What a waste of time, Mongo. Malleus has done nothing wrong here. Yworo (talk) 18:05, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Laughable even by Malleus-complaint standards. A sharp point to be sure, but one with validity. Tarc (talk) 18:10, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Validity....surely...there was no other way for him to say it I suppose...but welln what the heck, Malleus can make bigoted comments and fet away with it...disgusting.MONGO 18:16, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Malleus isn't "getting away with" anything here. If anything, your own egrecious personal attack on him, at least thrice repeated, would probably have resulted in a swift block were other parties involved. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 18:25, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * (ec with closing of this section) Not sure what precisely Malleus meant, but the article can surely not serve as a model for the proper treatment of important historical events. A blatant omission is that it does not discuss the causes that led to them. Which errors in American foreign policies, or whatever other historical circumstances, made so many in the Islamic world hate the US so much that ultimately something like this became possible? Were the official US reactions calculated to prevent further occurrences of this kind, or were they just an attempt to make the most out of them while continuing to pursue the previous course? Such omissions are relatively normal for articles about recent historical events. Significantly more than a decade must pass before historians can come to their verdict, and meanwhile we tend to treat even the most obvious things as "POV" matters.
 * On the article's talk page, Malleus supported a new structure for the article which would have started with a "Background or Planning" consisting of subsections "Motives", "Planning of the attacks", "Attackers". That this key information is currently hidden behind sections "Al-Qaeda", "Osama bin Laden", "Khalid Sheikh Mohammed" in the second paragraph indicates to me that Malleus has it exactly right. The article is telling a Tolkienian story of inexplicable evil breaking in on the United States for no provocation whatsoever. This may appear natural and just common sense to readers "draped in red white and blue", but it does not include an international audience.
 * If what Malleus said is offensive to American ears, then maybe Americans need to grow up. Hans Adler 18:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * So Adler isn't content enough to rabble-rouse at Talk:Muhammad/images over the last month, implying that those of us who wish to retain the images are bigoted against Muslims. But now comes the notion that in the 9/11 article we need to address just what the evil American Imperialists did wrong to incite a terrorist attack against them?  This sort of anti-American sentiment is the true bigotry here. Tarc (talk) 18:23, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Hate Filled Personal Attacks by Anon IP
Pretty obvious hate filled personal attacks coming from the above ips. Appears to have an interest in World War II articles among others. Recommend immediate blocks and monitoring. Obvious troll, cursing and swearing at other users. -OberRanks (talk) 04:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Blocked him for 31 hours. If this continues at other IP addresses, report those as well.  -- Jayron  32  04:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * 95.25 does not appear to be blocked yet. -OberRanks (talk) 04:16, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I only blocked the active IP. There's no need to block an IP which isn't editing anymore. -- Jayron  32  04:36, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, there is a problem here. One can say that the IP has been edit-warring, but it takes two to edit-war--or more, if there's tag-teaming. Kierzek's edit summary here, which I reckon is the first revert, accuses the IP of vandalism, and there is no justification for that: the IP made three edits, all explained in a summary, and all of them (in my opinion) improved the article. So they get reverted again and again, without explanation, and then break out the FUs. Well, they shouldn't, but neither should they have been treated like shit. [Edit conflict post-block:] Jayron, is the IP blocked for vandalism, for edit-warring, or for incivility? Do you think their actual edit was vandalism? And if not, is Kierzek reprimanded for a phony accusation of vandalism, which arguably led to this? Drmies (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The block was for personal attacks and gross incivility over a period of time. You could check the talk page of the most recent account, and the contribs of both, it is obvious this is not a noob, but someone with an intimate knowledge of Wikipedia's culture, policies, and behavioral guidelines.  If you can make a case that you think this person is going to stop personally attacking other editors, feel free to make that case here, and then go ahead and unblock.  If you have no reason to suspect his behavior will change if you unblock him right now, I would oppose undoing my block without consensus from other editors that it was incorrect.  -- Jayron  32  04:35, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not going to go against you--the rant was unacceptable, yet understandable. I don't know this person and I'm not going to make a case that they won't do it again. I wanted to know what the precise reason for the block was, since OberRanks and Kierzek have not acted appropriately here, in my opinion. All the cussing (at least in relation to this article) came after unexplained reverts that claimed vandalism. Drmies (talk) 04:41, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The behavior of OberRanks and Kierzek is yet to be assessed by me, I have no opinion thereof. Saying This to another user is never understandable.  Being frustrated is understandable.  Saying "fuck you, you cunt" to another user is not.  Ever.  One can be frustrated without doing that.  -- Jayron  32  04:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's the extent of the message I left on the blocked IP's talk page. Thanks for clearing it up: good-faith edits followed by unjustified revert followed by some edit-warring leading to inexcusable cussing makes for a convoluted mess, and I just wanted to know what made you press the button. Thanks Jayron, Drmies (talk) 05:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * OberRanks, please look at this in context. This was the first edit: there is nothing trollish about it, unless by 'trolling' you mean 'attempting and probably succeeding in good faith to improve an article while explaining the edit in summary'. Drmies (talk) 04:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Reprimanding for a personal attack accusing someone of "trolling". Who's going to do it? Doc   talk  04:24, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * (Signing off for the night after this) Any attempt at analyzing edits or reasoning with the ip address went out the window with this edit . I think a "revert on sight" is clearly warranted after that kind of a deep vicious personal attack against another user.  It should also be noted that KZ approached the user I think at least twice with warnings about behavior, trying to reason.  The purpose of those ips is clear - to cause trouble.  Let's not feed the trolls any further. -OberRanks (talk) 04:31, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This IP's rant is really quite understandable. And if you don't see the contradiction inherent in "approached the user with warnings"--well, then I have nothing more to say to you. As for this accusation of trolling, that's total bullshit: the diff I gave above is productive, and none of you even tried to talk to the IP or gave them the courtesy of even explaining what was wrong with the edit--well, I can understand that last part, since there was nothing wrong with their edit. Drmies (talk) 04:37, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Throwing around unfounded accusations of trolling is unfortunate indeed and should be discouraged. Doc   talk  04:51, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I couldn't agree more; it's almost as bad as trolling. Drmies (talk) 05:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, actual trolls... troll. They can't be stopped if that's all they want to do. But labeling someone a troll when they're really not one: I can see why you'd object to Ober's characterization. It all makes sense now... Doc   talk  06:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Multiple IP Addresses
There is a very long history of this particular editor getting into this same sort of conflict in different places. See the history of Ian Gow and Falklands War, for example. I've tried to help this editor -- see and   for some examples -- in particular User talk:190.163.3.204, and these two threads on my talk page:  User_talk:Antandrus, User_talk:Antandrus. The pattern that happens again and again is this editor makes good edits, is reverted, often for no good reason, and explodes. Sometimes the reverts are reasonable; but not always. I'm quite certain this is the same person -- IP from Santiago, Chile, which changes every day or two. His comments are clearly abusive, but he's often treated badly; it's not entirely his fault. I would plead with people to make sure you give a reason for reverts -- particularly when the edits are clearly made in good faith. Antandrus (talk) 04:32, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I counted a total of at least five ip addresses which can be attributed as coming from the same operator. It appears that nearly all of addresses, if not all of them entirely, have at one point been blocked for incivility and personal attacks.  I think the first step this user should take in working well with others is to establish a permanent account.  Rotating between ips and editing while blocked (see below) creates the impression of sock puppetry. -OberRanks (talk) 03:07, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Being treated badly by others is not entirely his fault. His reactions to it are, and calling people "cunt" is 100% his fault; no other person pressed the "c", "u", "n", and "t" keys for him, and no one else pressed the "save page" button when his personal attack was in the edit window.  As I stated above, I can understand frustration.  I will not condone his behavior in the place of frustration.  We cannot remove his agency from his own actions, regardless of the antecedents to those actions.  He freely chose to respond to that frustration as he did.  Also as I said above, I have not reviewed the actions of any other editors here; if our IP friend was baited that may need to be dealt with seperately, but he will not be excused by me for his behavior regardless of what other misbehavior may (or may not) have been going on around him.  -- Jayron  32  05:11, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Guys I was on my way out and checked the thread once more - I can see why perhaps KZ and I appear to have acted a bit too quickly reverting without discussing first; my apologies for that. After reviewing the threads of the two other ips, though, seemingly run by the same person, this is indicative of a much more serious problem.  Whoever is running these ips has committed numerous personal attacks and incivility against several users across a wide variety of articles over an extended period of time after numerous warnings and blocks.  In addition, as the person is not establishing a registered account, we have multiple edits from multiple accounts, leading into a possible WP:SOCK situation.  To avoid getting into a WP:INVOLVED situation (even though I'm not an admin), I wont file any more complaints or charges since it might look like a vendetta.  I will leave this in the hands of others, but this does appear to be a problem which needs to be dealt with.  Good night. -OberRanks (talk) 05:19, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As you noted, WP:INVOLVED is hardly an issue with non-admins. There's no vendetta either, for if they are disruptive then the disruption needs to stop. The IPs are all from Chile: that's something to go on. Keep digging... Doc   talk  05:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Hate-filled; yes. I fucking hate it when people falsely accuse me of vandalism, and of trolling. It is actually rather easy to distinguish what I do from those things. But people are too lazy, and too prejudiced. There is, it seems, no way of avoiding being accused of vandalism if you edit anonymously; the mere fact of being anonymous guarantees that someone will mindlessly and pointlessly revert your work, with an accusation of vandalism. At that point, in my now extensive experience, it makes no difference what your attitude is. This makes me very angry. Doesn't it make you very angry? Don't you think that's a problem that needs to be dealt with? If not, why not? 190.44.140.37 (talk) 23:45, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Regardless of how angry you are, WP:CIVIL is not optional. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:36, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Falsely accusing someone of vandalism - is that WP:CIVIL? 190.44.140.37 (talk) 01:09, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Please, Assume good faith. Pundit | utter  01:11, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Who, me? I get falsely accused of vandalism and trolling, simply for trying to improve articles, and I'm supposed to assume good faith? I'll ask the question again: falsely accusing someone of vandalism - is that WP:CIVIL? 190.44.140.37 (talk) 01:23, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter whether or not they have accused you falsely or not - somebody else's incivility does not excuse someone violating WP:CIVIL in return. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:10, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You're right that it doesn't, but (is this incivil?) one would have to be stupid not to think that there's a problem when incivility by registered and known users is ignored as long as it is directed toward IPs, who are pretty much treated as unpersons. It's as if incivility toward IPs is invisible even when its directly before our eyes. causa sui (talk) 04:52, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Right--well put. Templating with vandalism warnings is almost too easy, I think, and perhaps Twinkle should come with a mandatory class in WP:VANDALISM and other relevant pages. Funny--"don't template the regulars," and there's a couple of IPs that are more regular than some of the "vandalism fighters".Drmies (talk) 16:33, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Editing while blocked under another IP address
After being blocked under User:190.45.54.212 for a period of 31 hours, the same user has returned less than 24 hours later and is actively editing under User:190.44.140.37. This is now a serious violation of Wikipedia policy, editing while blocked and using a different ip address to circumvent said block. -OberRanks (talk) 02:47, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Honestly, if you have an opportunity to address the underlying issue, I think it fully appropriate to disregard bureaucratic procedure here. Do we really need to wait seven hours, or whatever it is, to get to the point?  Blocking the IP now might conform to the "rules" but would be, in my opinion, idiotic.
 * Chilean anon has a point that needs to be addressed -- casual reversion of IP edits as "vandalism" when they are, in fact, good faith edits, is very harmful to the project -- particularly during a time when we are having a wicked hard time attracting new editors. Don't other people wonder why we are hemorrhaging editors, and new people aren't joining?  Is it not possible that this is a key issue? Antandrus  (talk) 02:51, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I mentioned earlier how the reverts of the legit edits could have caused this user anger (indeed I self reverted the two main reverts I was responsible for), but the user is now using a second ip address to circumvent a block imposed for personal attacks, mainly calling another user a "fucking cunt". There is absolutely no excuse or justification for this type of behavior. -OberRanks (talk) 02:55, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * OK ... I think it’s important to get to the underlying issue here. Yes, the Chilean anon is abusive and incivil.  It's obvious.  Leaving that aside for the moment – consider why he behaves that way.  Many times, in at least the past month that I've been watching, his edits have been casually reverted with either no explanation, or worse, with a "reverting vandalism" summary.  Some of these cases have been bad indeed, including multiple warnings for the same obvious good-faith edit.  Yet there is a call for him to sit out his block, apologize for his incivility, promise not to do it again, -- but no promise on our part to investigate the problem that made him angry in the first place.
 * Imagine this situation. A cop makes this mistake:  he thinks he saw a guy committing a crime, grabs him, shouts "stop resisting!  let me handcuff you!" and the guy, who has done nothing wrong (but maybe seemed to be doing something wrong, due to misunderstanding, poor visibility, -- or whatever), confused, surprised, shouts "WHAT?? what are you doing?  who are you?  what the hell? get the fuck off me, asshole!"  It's a mistake to try to extort an apology from the non-criminal until the cop backs off and says -- "Oh.  I'm really sorry.  My mistake.  Please, let me help you up."  Then and only then, a well-adjusted adult takes a deep breath, and says to the cop -- "Thank you.  I'm sorry I yelled at you."  Falls into place; everyone goes away satisfied.  I bring this up because I think the anon has identified a serious problem in the culture here, and we need to address it.
 * Once again, I'm not condoning his incivility in any way, I want to point out that he may have a legitimate reason to be angry, and that reason is something we need to address -- with more care on the vandal-patrolling for a start. Antandrus (talk) 03:15, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I hear what you're saying. I think the user should establish a registered account and begin the path towards working well with others and we should leave him be after that.  That's not what this section of the thread is about.  The ip from yesterday deliberately used a second ip address to circumvent a block.  The blocking admin has been notified, this is a straight up enforcement issue of a standing block.  I'll step back from it, then, since I don't want there to be an appearance that I am "out to get" this person. -OberRanks (talk) 03:18, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I want to say "amen" to Antandrus's comment, and add that the editor does not have to register for an account. While I think it is generally a good idea, making it a requirement has been rejected time and time again by the community. Implying that if only the editor were registered, we wouldn't have bullied him into anger is not helpful. Lady  of  Shalott  03:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Antandrus, why don't you offer to mentor the guy? As for his circumventing the block, I leave that in the admins hands, but certainly something should be done. That and mentoring would be a start. Kierzek (talk) 03:56, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I also think we should return to the main issue that this is a block evading ip address actively editing while blocked. Another edit was just made .  By this point, whoever is operating that account is fully aware that they are blocked and is continuing to edit anyway. -OberRanks (talk) 03:59, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Clearly, some of us disagree with you that it's the main issue. Please, drop the stick and back away from the horse carcass. Lady  of  Shalott  04:03, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What the Lady says. What do you want, a range block so we can block every first productive edit that comes from it? Drmies (talk) 04:14, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * OberRanks, this is an edit that makes the article worse, not better. Drmies (talk) 04:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Drmies, you yourself wrote on the ip talk page..."When this is over, or you skip on to the next IP (but wait til the block is over or you'll be in more trouble)..." So, the fact he didn't, are you now saying it doesn't matter? Kierzek (talk) 04:21, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes I did--but I didn't say that I was going to make trouble for them. It's clear that there is more trouble now; they're not helping themselves, no, that's obvious. What I find funny (well, either comic or tragic) is that you revert a good edit, they revert you, OberRanks reverts them with an irrelevant edit summary, you modify again, and finally the IP again edits and produces a cleaner version. Now, we wasted four edits and countless electrons in the process, and why? Also sad: I think I was the first one to leave a humanoid message for them--I wish y'all had done that before. Drmies (talk) 04:34, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No you weren't the first to leave him a humanoid message at all, several of us have tried and the response was to call us all a bunch of "cunts". You won't see messages on his talk page, as he'll usually remove them with an abusive edit summary.  Wee Curry Monster talk 10:29, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The purpose of blocks and bans is not to punish people but to protect Wikipedia. The Chilean editor has arrived in this thread and seems prepared to discuss things. What is the best outcome for Wikipedia will be if we manage to retain all parties as editors with the IP understanding that swearing at other editors gets them blocked and that "he started it" is not an excuse and with the initial reverters understanding that accusing good faith editors of vandalism is counterproductive, gets them annoyed and increases the risk of their doing something which annoys you. Working out the exact expiry of the block is less important to the project than finding ways to try to prevent a recurrence of the initial situation and to do that it is better not to assiduously punish just one party while doing nothing against the other.--Peter cohen (talk) 04:22, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I thought mentoring was a good idea in the end, but I will not write further on this matter and will leave it to you guys. Kierzek (talk) 04:26, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, right now there is little we can do, only two things: block block block, or wait for the IP to communicate more productively. There is one more thing: urge editors to treat IP editors properly and judge their edits on their own merits. Drmies (talk) 04:34, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a matter of opinion his edit made the article better. I disagree, but will not waste time over such edits. I am glad you spoke to him on his talk page as to the matter. Maybe you would like to mentor him? Anyway, I need to sign off. The real world calls (bed, actually). Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 04:42, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If they'll listen. I don't know about mentoring; I'm kind of a jerk myself. Oh, last week I was dreaming that I pressed "my contributions" in the middle of some adventure. Sweet dreams! Drmies (talk) 04:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I'm being inattentive: belately responding to Kierzek.  I'm willing to help if there's some way I can.  People who have long edit histories with dynamic IPs, never making accounts, are Wikipedia’s nomads – they’ve clearly made a choice not to have an account, and I respect that.  I have a hunch he's too independent to want a "mentor", but I'd be happy to give advice any time he wants.  My first piece of advice would be:  design a polite "first response" to a faulty revert which you can copy and paste to that person’s talk page:  that removes the risk of letting your anger get the better of you, and greatly reduces the risk of ending up on a noticeboard for the wrong reason. Antandrus  (talk) 05:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * With respect to Antandrus as we have discussed this guy's editing behaviour at length and I'm not surprised it has ended up here; I think you're missing a point. Whilst most of his edits improve articles, not all do.  When his edits don't or for a good reason another editor disagrees with him, the response is always the same; he is rude, aggressive and abusive.  He will not listen to other editors views or discuss things in an appropriate manner using the talk page.  There is a fundamental problem with his behaviour and he has latched onto the concept of being reverting because he is an IP editor as an excuse for his behaviour.  Fundamentally he seems incapable of working collaboratively, having been blocked several times for incivility I think the time has come to consider a range block here.
 * As regards the second concern raised by Antandrus that of the loss of editors, he may have a general point but in this case I feel this is not the fundamental problem here. I have earnestly tried to talk with this guy on numerous occasions and he reacts in the same way no matter how he is approached.  You only have to look at history on Talk:Ian Gow to see that .  He would still be angrily railing at editors there if it wasn't for the fact Ian Gow is semi-protected.  And I'm sorry but you're excusing his behaviour here, when it is blatantly unacceptable by community standards and by doing so you're effectively encouraging it.
 * But I will add my own 2c here, so many times you'll bend over backwards to assume good faith with a disruptive editor that it takes a long time before they're eventually blocked for exhausting the communities patience. I see a number of people doing that here, when he has already been given the benefit of the doubt several times - he just pops up again with a different IP sock.  In the mean time you're losing experienced editors who end up fed up and frustrated when they're polite and patient with new editors, who respond with abuse, and then someone pops along with their favourite lecture about not biting newbies as wikipedia is not attracting new editors; you forget you're also losing experienced editors fed up with taking crap.  Wee Curry Monster talk 10:29, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, "wee curry monster", you have not once tried to discuss anything. You started off with a false accusation of vandalism, and you did not waver from a position which assumed bad faith.  You lied about my edits to try to justify your behaviour in reverting them.  You never once made any serious attempt to discuss the article content, and instead you went stalking my edits, reverting them with such comments as "rv IP edits".  You then have the gall to claim that you've tried to talk?  Sick.  190.44.140.37 (talk) 11:04, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well I'm pretty sure that User:Antandrus will corroborate the fact that I have tried to discuss your edits. On Ian Gow for example I pointed out you'd removed relevant and cited material,, you continued to revert on the basis we're all "dopey cunts" and were reverting you because of a "grudge".  Nobody lied about any of your edits and there was ample justification for reverting your edits.  Furthermore by your own admission you're deliberately uncivil  and I quote "I get more satisfaction out of responding viciously than I would out of responding politely".  You would appear to enjoy hiding behind an anonymous IP being gratuitously offensive and you're not an asset to the project but a liability. Wee Curry Monster talk 11:56, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The initial concern about how some of this ips legitimate edits were reverted out of hand was well warranted. I think both KZ and myself did our best to reverse those changes.  But that isolated incident doesn't excuse the length of policy violations this user has committed.  I was particular disturbed by the quote "I have no respect for the blocks that result from me being accused of vandalism, so I ignore them."  I've said enough here, since I don't want to appear as going after this person, but something absolutely needs to be done about this.  I believe the outpouring of support in this thread will only encourage this ip user to continue to commit personal attacks, circumvent blocks with multiple ips, and violate Wikipedia policy. -OberRanks (talk) 14:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, "wee curry monster", you never made any serious attempt to justify your stalking and reverting of my edits. Your best effort was "rv IP edits".
 * OberRanks, the second time you say "I've said enough here, since I don't want to appear as going after this person", it makes it obvious that you were not sincere when you first said it. Why, incidentally, did you refuse to answer a very simple question I posted to your talk page, with the edit summary "register, then we'll talk"?
 * Such wildly, absurdly false accusations of vandalism as I've received should result in a reprimand to the user making them, or better, a block. As it is, nothing happens, and people like "wee curry monster" get the idea that such behaviour is fine.  A situation in which saying "fuck" is seen as so much worse than deliberately reducing the quality of the encyclopaedia begins to convince me that many editors have become divorced from the whole point of Wikipedia. 200.104.123.205 (talk) 00:10, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You were not blocked for "false claims of vandalism", you were blocked for gross incivility towards another user by calling them several inappropriate names in at least two different edit summaries - a block you promptly circumvented by logging on with a different ip address. As for the original issue of reverting your legitimate edits, that's been explained and examined in detail above, and that matter is not worth repeating.  What people are telling you now is to move on and work better with others.  I think that's a very good idea.  -OberRanks (talk) 02:41, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "I've said enough here, since I don't want to appear as going after this person"
 * Besides failing to go away when you said you would at least twice, you seem to have misunderstood what I was saying. False accusations of vandalism and trolling (such as you made) are a very big problem.  Attitudes of disdain towards IP editors (such as yours) are a very big problem.  I think both of them are a much bigger problem and more damaging to a project whose aim is to create an encyclopaedia than a bit of bad language.  I think people making such egregiously false accusation of vandalism as you did should be blocked.  People who say things like "register, then we'll talk" should be blocked for a gross misunderstanding of one of the fundamental philosophies of wikipedia.  You didn't get so much as a warning.  So how about you move on and work better with others, regardless of whether they have a username or not?  I think that's a very good idea. 200.104.123.205 (talk) 11:46, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

IP, I'll grant you that IPs here are sometimes handled in a too harsh a way. That is bad, that should not happen. Some IPs indeed are long-term wikipedia editors moving around, and those should be cherished etc. However, everybody does sometimes make edits which are a net negative to a page, and such edits are sometimes reverted (sometimes with unclear revert reasons or not properly discussed), and editors who make them are sometimes wrongly accused of vandalism (and if that was too harsh, then I agree, that is a bad thing). You are, of course, completely free to point those editors to that, to initiate discussions of why something needs the change you propose (WP:BRD does suggest the reverter should start it, but it does not mean that you are not allowed to do it as alternative if a reverter does not do it ..), to warn such editors if it repeats, and/or bring such editors to an appropriate noticeboard.

There is however, no excuse for using bad language, no excuse to issue personal attacks, and there is no excuse to go into edit wars - let alone combine the two: history. Initiate discussion on talkpages (I see you participate in it!), ask others to come into the discussion, but do not keep reverting and calling names, because you do not agree with a revert, or with the way you are treated. Thát is also not productive. Let it at 'the wrong version' for some time and find consensus. And as I see that you are there the reverting editor over and over (I'm afraid even passing the bright line), ánd are calling names. I do think that a block on your IP is appropriate, and I do not think that it is then appropriate to keep editing using another IP - even if you turn out to be completely right that your edit is not vandalism, and that it actually improves the page.

I agree that the underlying issue is unnecessary biting of 'new' editors, and there is no excuse for that, but that does not excuse your behaviour either, IP. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:28, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your thoughts, with which I agree almost entirely. But I don't think any of the reverts that were made were actually about article quality.  They were simply an expression of unthinking prejudice.  You say of false accusations of vandalism: "...if that was too harsh..."  I find that "if" very offensive.  It's not about "harsh", anyway, it's about simple honesty and the simple courtesy of not reverting without understanding the edit.  If you get reverted by someone saying, for example "rv deletions" when you didn't delete anything, "rv vandalism" when anyone who actually read the edit could see it was not, or the classic "rv IP edits", you know you're not dealing with someone who has this basic courtesy.
 * Destroying a good edit with a false accusation of vandalism simply because you couldn't be bothered to read it properly is in itself vandalism. It is a deliberate attempt to compromise the quality of Wikipedia.  As such, the 3RR doesn't apply if I revert such destructive edits.  And yet, I have in the past been blocked without even reverting three times while a vandal who reverted four times received not even so much as a warning.
 * This casually inconsiderate and destructive attitude is a problem. What is going to be done about it?
 * A further problem is the editors who exhibit wanton disdain towards IP editors. Edit summaries such as "rv IP edits", or "register, then we'll talk" betray an appalling sense of superiority, derived apparently from the mere virtue of having filled in a form.  This offensive attitude is a problem.  What is going to be done about it?
 * I have asked many editors on many occasions exactly what led them to conclude so incorrectly that a particular edit was vandalism. I have never received a sensible answer; not even once.  See OberRanks and his "register, then we'll talk" for a particularly risible refusal to discuss.  So, some inconsiderate and unthinking editor is inevitably going to accuse me of vandalism, no matter how blatantly obviously my edits are not vandalism.  Whether I'm polite or not, it will make no difference.  And in fact, if I'd only ever responded in the timid and subservient way that you seem to desire, then this discussion here would never have happened, would it?  So in fact, if I've managed to raise some awareness of the problem of lazy, unthinking editors reverting with dishonest claims, then my outbursts have had a positive effect.  If anything's actually done about these problematic editors, it will be a miracle, but you never know. I'll say again, I think people making flagrantly incorrect accusations of vandalism should be blocked.  200.104.123.205 (talk) 13:21, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, IP. That is in a way what I suggested. You seem to have brought this to the attention of such users - if they after that repeat it, you move on to warnings, or even to a noticeboard showing what is going on.

And what you describe is basically a WP:POINT violation, and that is not an atmosphere we should be working in - even when you are right. And if you call having articles semi or fully protected because of editwars a 'success' .. I beg to differ. --Dirk Beetstra T C 14:23, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Can I make a few non-binding observations and then we close this joint? Pretty please?
 * Edits made by IPs should be judged on content
 * IP contributions are to be valued, not to be distrusted. (That much of the vandalism is IP vandalism is not relevant here. Much of what's on the street is dog shit, but I still will pick up the pecans and thank the tree for it.)
 * Editors should be (much) more careful when they're ready to say rvv and start slapping templates on IP talk pages.
 * Of course editors shouldn't go around cussing the hell out of each other.
 * IP editors should be listened to when they complain about the behavior signaled in this thread, and IMO ANI is the right place for it--and admins and others should not be afraid to use Template:uw-notvand.


 * Now, let's get back to work. Fender Stratocaster XII is wholly unverified and Samson Agonistes lacks a "References in popular culture" section. Drmies (talk) 16:45, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Close it? The guy has come to ANI and lied and you swallow it, you're excusing and encouraging abusive behaviour and he'll go on his merry way continiuing to do exactly the same thing.  I fully explained why he was reverted, I ONCE used the short hand rv IP edits - but then I'd already explained and he'd responded with abuse.  Why should I continue to have to explain myself to someone who can't be bothered to be civil, no strike that, delights in being abusive.
 * He is block evading right now, he is unrepentant about being uncivil and you're talking about closing it. The problem remains, he is abusive to anyone who crosses his path, but he's left with the impression its OK.  Yes blocks are not punitive but they're not being preventative here either.
 * And you're wondering why people are leaving wikipedia? For gods sake, wake up and smell the coffee.  This is not about biting IP editors, people respond to the guy in the way they do as he is abusive, not because he is an IP.  He is not a newbie by his own admission.
 * You're proposing to close it, with the underlining issue unresolved and an unrepentant abusive editor vowing to continue. Why should I bother with a named account anymore or following the rules?  Why is there such a reluctance to tackle abusive and disruptive editors, people are leaving in droves because of this?  Wee Curry Monster talk 21:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, Civility Police Officer, what do you propose to do? Send Jason Bourne out to Chile to teach him a lesson? The claim that people are leaving in droves because an IP cusses someone out is too ridiculous to comprehend. There are good reasons for why some good editors leave, but you couldn't possibly see that from your vantage point. Moreover, there is nothing you can do here that's preventative, unless you want to rangeblock South America. Yes, we close this thread, and move on, and at least try to consider what drives editors to frustration: incorrect claims of vandalism, for instance; having edits reverted without proper explanation; being distrusted because they don't want to come up with something cute like "Wee Curry Monster" or "Drmies". Leave it be: there is nothing you can accomplish here, and your analysis of the situation is completely wrong. FWIW (though some people won't care what the IP editor has to say), the editor has a name and is a human being, like some of us here, and has dropped me a line saying--I think I am not betraying any confidences here--they will refrain from certain aspects of their behavior but, and I understand this perfectly, they also wish to be treated with respect. Now, perhaps some uninvolved admin can close this. Wake up and smell the coffee: no admin, I think, will extend the block on one IP or another, and no admin is going to apply a range block here. Drmies (talk) 15:42, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Except I did treat the guy with respect but it wasn't reciprocated. Somewhat ironic expecting respect when he has none for anyone else.  So basically in your book block evasion is OK for an IP editor.  If I, with a named account, had done that I'd be facing a lengthy block.  If I'd been that uncivil, I'd be facing a lengthy block or a ban. I'd like to see a range block till he realises his behaviour his not acceptable; and be treated in exactly the same way as a named account would be.  I see no evidence that he will keep any promise to modify his behaviour.
 * And please grow up, the needling comments about civility police are not helpful. Editors should not have to put up with the abuse this guy takes great pleasure in dishing out; he admits to enjoying it.  Basically you are encouraging and excusing his behaviour.  Wee Curry Monster talk 17:59, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Pff--grow up? You're the one whining here for a block that you know you're not going to get. Don't attempt to read what's in my book, please; it's apparently not written in your language, though I think most other editors here read it well enough. Now, you get to insult me one more time (but you'll have to do better than 'grow up'--I'm too old for that), and I'll let it slide, and then someone can close this. Drmies (talk) 20:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Why would I want to insult you, I don't feel the need to lower myself to the same standard of behaviour you seem to think is acceptable. If you think that was an insult, my advice is never go to Glasgow as your delicate sensibilities would never survive. If I'd referred to you as a dopey fucking cunt, revert warred and generally been a rude and ignorant dick I'd have been blocked. If I block evaded, I'd be blocked some more. So why does an IP get away with all of that? ''' You dopy little fuck, "wee curry monster".   Cunts ''' Get over your pathetic little grudge, "wee curry monster"  I get more satisfaction out of responding viciously than I would out of responding politely  ''' Yep, you're still a complete twat.  Blocked for 2 weeks... Let's see now... turn off the router... turn it on again... :)''' Here we have an IP editor who openly brags about sock puppetry when blocked for incivility, makes it plain that he enjoys being deliberately uncivil. Admits at ANI that he is socking and block evading but admins do absolutely nothing to prevent this disruptive behaviour continuing.  Did someone change the civility policy?  When did block evasion become acceptable? And if I have the temerity to ask you to do something about it, I'm whining and you openly mock me about being the so-called civility police.  And you wonder why you're losing editors. Go ahead and close it, it'll be back here in a week.  You've left the basic problem unresolved. Wee Curry Monster talk 21:48, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not the language itself but the way it's being used. Nobody is having their delicate sensibilities destroyed by seeing the words "fuck" or "cunt"; editors are simply sick and tired of being demeaned, belittled, and treated like they're less than human simply because they disagree with someone who thinks himself cool and edgy because he's learned a few scary words in the schoolyard. If there was one problem in Wikipedia that discourages new editors, it's this "I have the right to viciously abuse you if I disagree with you. Voicing dislike of said abuse proves my point that you are a pathetic worthless loser and I am better than you" attitude and the abuse that proceeds from it. It also gives readers the impression that the abuser knows he's wrong, knows he doesn't have a defensible point, so needs to resort to viciously belittling his opponents because that's the only way he can possibly win. I can't think of a better way to make people distrust and disbelieve you than to resort to insults. --NellieBly (talk) 01:56, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

John Pike
Going to bed now. The following needs attention: Hans Adler 01:03, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&curid=6768170&diff=462181024&oldid=462180137
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=462189791
 * Yes, you need to stop labeling that living person repeatedly at multiple talk page locations on the en wikipedia as a torturer. Off2riorob (talk) 01:05, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If I had wanted your opinion I would not have come here. Hans Adler 01:07, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You also are repeatedly referring to him as a criminal - just one minute ago on your talkpage after multiple warnings and requests to stop. Off2riorob (talk) 01:08, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Which is obviously fair comment under the circumstances. Hans Adler 01:12, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

It continues: Hans Adler 01:12, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ABiographies_of_living_persons%2FNoticeboard&action=historysubmit&diff=462190040&oldid=462189947
 * He is doing it in a deliberate way repeatedly now - another one just now - Off2riorob (talk) 01:13, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I was just creating a new section on this incident here when Hans notified me that he'd created a new topic. Hans insists on accusing John Pike (the police officer in the Occupy Davis controversy) of being a criminal on WP:BLPN. Three editors (not counting me) told Hans that he couldn't say things like that about Pike. One noted the irony of violating BLP on BLPN. Hans persisted, impervious to the comments. I removed his comments per WP:TPO. He posted a protest and committed additional violations. I removed those. He reverted, and another editor reverted him. Hans then posted a message on my Talk page.

At a minimum, an admin should warn Hans that he cannot violate BLP just becauase he believes that a person's conduct is criminal.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Is it ok for Hans to repeatedly refer to this living person that has not been charged with any crime as a criminal and a torturer? Off2riorob (talk) 01:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Still awake (though not much longer), so here is a quick response. WP:BLPTALK says this:
 * Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced and not related to making content choices, should be removed, deleted, or oversighted as appropriate.
 * That sentence doesn't give you license to accuse people of being criminals in non-article space. See WP:TPO ("Removing prohibited material such as libel, personal details, violations of policy about living persons, or copyright violations."). Plus, the policy you cite allows someone to remove material in certain circumstances; it does not justify addition of material.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:30, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Off2riorob has been trying to win a POV conflict by the simple expedient of making the necessary discussion about the underlying facts for various editorial decisions impossible. Hans Adler 01:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Attacking a living person such as you have repeatedly been doing has got nothing to do with any content discussion I am involved in. Off2riorob (talk) 01:22, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * So you are not trying to move the iconic photo of the UC Davis project (which shows John Pike) out of the lead? You did not try to get John Pike off the John Pike disambiguation? Hans Adler 01:24, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * My belief that that picture does not represent the subject of the article in a due manner is no reason or excuse for you repeatedly opining about this living person is a criminal when he has not been charged with anything at all. Off2riorob (talk) 01:28, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

And it continues further: The rationale for that link from John Pike is contained in the page history and in the discussion on WP:BLP/N. Hans Adler 01:23, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Pike&curid=6018141&diff=462189590&oldid=461998071
 * What has that got to do with you attacking repeatedly a living person by refusing to stop referring to them as a criminal and a torturer on the talkpages of en wikipedia? Off2riorob (talk) 01:25, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It has to do with the question how we deal with John Pike. And for that question it makes a difference whether he is an accidental target of media attention, a victim of a crime, or a perpetrator of one. There are different rules for these cases. Hans Adler 01:28, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * None of that is any reason for you to repeatedly refer to him in such ways - you need to back off this issue you are overly involved. Off2riorob (talk) 01:30, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * So? Whatever rules you're talking about presumes a verifiable fact. Here, it's you who've decided that Pike is a "perpetrator" of a crime. Such power you have.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:33, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Hans should be able to refer to that incident as constituting torture. Not being able to do that would constitute censorship. The BLP policy does allow for incriminating statements to be made in discussions when it is a relevant issue. The BLP policy cannot be used to shield BLPs from negative but relevant information. Count Iblis (talk) 01:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Did you know that torture is a crime in California? See Calif. Penal Code section 206. And to what issue was Hans's opinion that Pike is a criminal and a torturer relevant? It was mostly a rant. The original issue had to do with a disambig page for John Pike.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:41, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * @Count Iblis - where is it in policy to support your claim that, "The BLP policy does allow for incriminating statements to be made in discussions when it is a relevant issue" - Off2riorob (talk) 01:49, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes--Count Iblis, that is a ridiculous claim. Drmies (talk) 02:23, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I should also add that this was not a discussion about content on the Pike article; there is no Pike article. And even if there were, how could there be a discussion about whether to label someone who hasn't even been charged with a crime a criminal? The whole thing is ludicrous. The removals weren't intended to shield a BLP from negative information, but to shield a BLP from libel in the guise of a discussion - in other words, the opposite.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:52, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A person is a criminal if and only if they have been convicted of a crime. As far as I know the officer hasn't even been charged at this time, simply put on administrative leave. That may change, and if it does the situation would be somewhat different.  In the meantime, if Hans Adler continues to blatantly violate BLP policy, a block may be necessary to remind him that what he is doing goes against black letter policy, which applies everywhere on Wikipedia, including talk pages.  Other editors should be reminded that WP:BLPREMOVE allows the removal of such material without damger of being blocked for edit warring. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:34, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Iblis' statement, "Hans should be able to refer to that incident as constituting torture. Not being able to do that would constitute censorship", is totally out of whack with wikipedia's philosophy and purpose. We go by sourcing, not by the political and legal views of editors. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:01, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You are mixing up article space and talk space. When we have a widely disseminated photo of a very notable crime, it's completely ridiculous to remove it to protect the perpetrator, and if one can't argue that way on the relevant talk pages just because a few people here have the right-wing authoritarian blind spot for crimes committed in the name of the law, then we have a serious censorship problem. Hans Adler 08:44, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What valid source have you found that states it's a crime? (Your opinion and mine do not qualify.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:22, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You are begging the question whether I need reliable sources for that. In a talk page discussion, I do not. But of course they do exist. For example, AP quoting the senior counsel of the First Amendment Project: "[UC Davis police used] it as a torture device to force someone to do something, and that's exactly what the 9th Circuit said was unreasonable and excessive." Or Jeff Norman, discussing in detail how a citizen's arrest of John Pike could work and what consequences it would have.  Given your known right-wing leanings you will likely try to dismiss these as left-wing, hence unusable sources. However, the issue here is whether I am allowed, in an internal Wikipedia discussion on editorial decisions, to say things that AP reported as having been said by a lawyer, and that someone on a left-wing mainstream site has said much more strongly. Hans Adler 13:21, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Right wing leanings? Where are you getting that from? I voted for Obama, and intend to again. Regardless, you can't violate BLP rules in either articles or talk pages. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm disappointed, Baseball, I thought you were voting for Mel Blanc.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:27, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I am not violating BLP rules and I must ask you to stop claiming so. To quote from WP:BLPTALK: "Although this policy applies to posts about Wikipedians in project space, some leeway is permitted to allow the handling of administrative issues by the community, but administrators may delete such material if it rises to the level of defamation, or if it constitutes a violation of No personal attacks." The continued claims that I have violated BLP, never accompanied by comprehensible proofs because they are wrong, are beginning to amount to defamation. While I would normally never contemplate it, in the present context of mass hypocrisy I am seriously considering asking an admin to remove the defamatory comments. Hans Adler 22:01, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In your own words, "...obviously criminal behaviour. Hans Adler 21:58, 23 November 2011 (UTC)". So lose your "defamation" nonsense. I, too, was appalled by the video of the cop pepper-spraying the protestors. But it is not wikipedia's purpose to advocate. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:22, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for confirming my point about hypocrisy by completely ignoring my point about your own behaviour. Hans Adler 22:33, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I could also claim that you "defamed" me by accusing me of "right-wing leanings". But since your comment immediately above makes no sense, I have to figure that you're just angry about the pepper spray incident and that it's clouding your judgment. I'm angry about that incident too. Which is precisely why I'm NOT editing the article. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:00, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Moving forward
This is not the first time that we've had drama over whether or not to mention (or to write an article on) a person who has attracted an intense stream of media attention for doing something nasty (or for being accused of it). On one side we have WP:BLP and WP:BLP1E; on the other side we have the obvious notability (plus these articles tend to attract many readers, and perhaps a few lazy journalists). There have been several previous cases and there will be many more in future; more Pikes and more Breiviks. Perhaps we need to hone our policies/guidelines here, so in future we can concentrate on improving encyclopædic content rather than bickering...? bobrayner (talk) 02:38, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * the way to solve this is to focus on the fundamental principle behind the rule, not the minutia. As I see it, it's DONOHARM. It is wrong of us to give undue prominence to negative things about non-public figures or minor public figures. The key word is "undue", and the key concept is the effect that WP has as compared to other sources. Once the responsible national press has given such prominence, we have to remember that they, not we, determine the prominence overall. With a few local news stories, we're the major player. With national coverage to the extent here, we're not. (I do not consider him a public figure in the sense an elected politician is. But he's not quite a private figure either: he was doing what he did in his official capacity. So the answer in this case is an article in his name is appropriate, and the picture is also.  We're not the people responsible for widely disclosing the information--we're just following the sources.   DGG ( talk ) 02:55, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * However, regardless of notability, if he has not been charged with any crime, referring to him as a criminal is, in fact, a BLP violation. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:58, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I disagree about one point. This is an obvious case of WP:BLP1E, and in any case it would better to have an article on the incident if that is required. The details of his background as a soldier are not particularly relevant. Even a discussion on whether it's a good idea to give people a dehumanisation training abroad and then turn them into police officers could be done with a one-sentence mention of that background. And the discrimination lawsuit is completely unrelated and undue. Let alone his date or place of birth. Hans Adler 08:22, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I feel it's important that we refrain from characterizing any living person's behavior as criminal or as a crime. It's fine to state facts regarding the criminal justice process such as "suspected", "suspended", "indicted", "charged", "on trial", "convicted", "found guilty", etc. But it's not OK to call someone a rapist, torturer, or child molester, etc, who hasn't been convicted. This applies to any page in Wikipedia. While we tend to think of our articles as our "public face" - the reality is everything we write anywhere on Wikipedia is every bit as public as our articles, as a result BLP (or liable) applies in every wiki-space. Rklawton (talk) 03:09, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This makes no sense. You are applying much more restrictive criteria to an internal Wikipedia discussion than anyone normally does in a public forum. I would repeat everything that I have said on Wikipedia in the mainstream media in Germany, under my name, and would not be the least bit worried about possible legal consequences, and I would also do so if the incident had happened in Germany. I would not do so in the US, of course, because I know that the legal system in many places treats anything related to the problems caused by underpaid, underqualified police operating under a degenerated esprit de corps very unfairly.
 * There is a huge difference between saying "everybody knows that A has tortured students" somewhere on a talk page without giving any evidence, and giving the opinion that what A has verifiably done amounts to torture. This is exactly parallel to how I can say that because he authorised torture, George W. Bush is obviously a criminal. And in fact, a lot of opinion pieces in various places have said so. He has not been indicted yet. This is a clear free speech issue in the original, unperverted (i.e. not: porn, defamation and hate speech as free speech) sense. Hans Adler 08:22, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Could we have a separate thread on that? ;-)
 * I agree with you on many points, including "Should we have coverage of Pike?", but there has been fairly strong pushback against the "torture" label; if you want to argue that point here, it may derail discussion from the more abstract point that I raised above. bobrayner (talk) 09:24, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Clarifying our rules about BLP issues is a good idea. I think for article space there isn't much of a problem at the moment. Editors frequenting WP:BLP/N generally have the desirable level of maturity, but this was disappointing. We should clarify that Wikipedia will not invade someone's privacy for entertainment even if the press has done it before us. But I have found it impossible to explain the difference between notable children's names, dates of birth and schools, the amount of money paid for a house, comments on someone's buttocks etc. and genuine noteworthy information to a certain type of editor. Working out objective criteria for that would be helpful. Apparently we also need further clarification that BLP does not apply to talk pages in the same way as to articles. Hans Adler 12:54, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No matter where you do it here, calling someone a criminal when they haven't been charged with anything, is not appropriate. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:56, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I know, a policeman is never a true criminal. Where were you when I removed a terrorism category from the article on a non-terroristic act of sabotage committed by a legal American non-profit organisation? That was in article space and implied that certain named people were terrorists. (See my block log for pointers.) Here we are talking about talk space. Hans Adler 13:32, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm having a really difficult time seeing things your way here, Hans. WP:BLPTALK most certainly does not give the sort of exemption to BLP that you seem to be arguing exists for talk pages. It's not at all clear what positive purpose injecting our talk pages with such serious allegations does. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:18, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but this "You are applying much more restrictive criteria to an internal Wikipedia discussion than anyone normally does in a public forum" is such a non-starter, I'm surprised you would offer it. I don't disagree that many public fora would allow contributors to call people criminals, even though they aren't. But this isn't one of those public fora, this is Wikipedia, and we have rules. You are free to propose that our rules are too restrictive, and suggest alternative rules, but that doesn't seem to be your thesis—you seem to be arguing that such a claim is allowed under the rules here. It isn't. And I'm fine with that. I wouldn't call a person a criminal no matter what despicable act they committed, if they had not been convicted.-- SPhilbrick  T  14:24, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I refuted your "non-starter" nonsense before you even posted this. A senior lawyer of a large American non-profit has said essentially the same thing that I did, and AP has reported the fact. "[T]his is Wikipedia, and we have rules." Precisely. And nothing in these rules says that this kind of fair comment isn't allowed outside article space, except when irrelevant to editing decisions or when the underlying facts for the comment are unverifiable. If you don't ever want to call out-of-control American presidents, police miscasts and other dangerous untouchable personalities criminals, regardless of what they do, then that is your personal choice, possibly influenced by an authoritarian upbringing. Other people make other choices, and you are not going to convince anyone with vague "we have rules" hand-waving, which essentially says: "I believe I am more powerful than you / have more influential friends than you, and can get away with forcing you to do what I want without any need for further justifications." As an academic, I am not used to being talked down to, and especially not in such a silly way.
 * By the way, you have come a long way from your cavalier approach to random out-of-context statements in BLP articles (on climate scientists) a year ago (see Talk:Phil Jones (climatologist)) to this extremism in combatting fair comment on violent people (in police uniforms) in talk/project space. How strange. Hans Adler 19:00, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

In "moving forward", let's not forget that the issue here is whether Hans's conduct merits sanctions. At least that's the central issue for me. Although Hans himself started this topic, as I stated at the outset, I was about to begin a topic myself. What most concerns me is not just Hans's past conduct but his future conduct. He didn't seem to get it on BLPN, and he doesn't seem to get it here. His stubbornness in the face of many editors telling him his views are flat-out wrong is disturbing.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:39, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Can we say that Bin Laden was a terrorist? That becomes a rather complicated issue with this interpretaion of BLP invoked here. Even more difficult, can we say that someone charged with a crime is a criminal as charged, if those charges are brought by e.g. Iran? Were the 3 hikers arrested in Iran spies?

Were the security forces in Bahrain guilty of toruture? A legitimate discussion, given the recent report, so you can imagine that some particular officials can be discussed in this context. Did climate scientists falsify data to promote global warming alarmism (which would also have been a criminal offense if true)? Of course not, but this was frequently discussed on Wikipedia talk pages.

With the possible exception of the hikers, no one would invoke BLP to close such discussions, so it seems to me that the interpretation of BLP used to criticize Hans here is fundamentally flawed. Count Iblis (talk) 17:08, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If someone has not been convicted of a crime, they cannot be labeled a criminal. That one's fairly easy. As to your question about "terrorist", I've wrestled with that issue and I try to dodge it (this, of course, in article space). It's easier just to stick to facts, so, for example, if someone has been convicted of murder, we can say they've been convicted of murder, but unless they've been convicted of terrorism (which, I believe, in the U.S., at least is a crime in and of itself), we should avoid it. The problem comes with the media bandying about the term terrorist and whether we then should use the term because, oh my, it's been reported in reliable sources. This probably requires an article-by-article examination, but my view is we should stick, not only to what's reported in reliable sources, but what's reported as facts, not as descriptors. As for your contention that "no one would invoke BLP to close such discussions", "no one" is a pretty broad statement, and I seriously doubt it's accurate.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:29, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As our article on ambiguity says, in "rhetoric, ambiguity can be a useful tool." You know how to use it, apparently. "Labeled" strongly connotes calling someone explicitly a criminal in article space, whereas the context in which you use the word indicates that you are talking about how I called him a criminal in talk space. Hans Adler 19:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Each of your responses confirms your inability to grasp policies and guidelines, at least in this area. Your political/moral views appear to interfere with your capacity to contribute as a neutral editor.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:19, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Hans has been duly warned several times. I've posted the link to policy on his talk page twice. Hans' reply to this directly contradicted policy stating it was OK to state people committed crimes on talk pages as part of the editorial process even though policy says it isn't. There's nothing more we can do at this point. If Hans violates BLP again, I will immediately block him from editing. Rklawton (talk) 19:33, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Given that I have explained policy that you are misunderstanding to you, and given that there is obviously no consensus for such a block, I would suggest that you think of a less dramatic way of discarding your bits. Hans Adler 19:36, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. Hopefully, other admins looking at the history will come to the same conclusion.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:41, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Here are a few examples from the archives of Talk:Climatic Research Unit email controversy. In each case it is clear that the references to criminality were about a group of identifiable climate researchers whose emails had been published illegally. These are just from the first 3 archives, out of a total of 43 numbered archives and 7 special archives. There was nothing comparable in archive 4. I was going to continue with archive 5, but was distracted by finding an instance there of Sphilbrick defending the honour of the criminals who published the emails, in the same way that he is now defending the honour of the pepper spraying policeman -- around the same time that [correction: exactly one year before] he was arguing for the inclusion of misleading quotations in the BLP article on one of the scientists.
 * "enormous case of organized scientific fraud, but it is not just scientific fraud. It is also a criminal act. Suborned by billions of taxpayer dollars"
 * "dozens of prominent scientists have established a criminal racket in which they seek government money-Phil Jones has raked in a total of £13.7 million in grants"
 * "We don't know that yet. We also don't know how much of the consensus is built on the work of people who don't have a problem with criminal data destruction."
 * "data as being exemplary of criminal activity--copyright protects no crimes. And you are still ignoring the 'whistleblowing' aspects"
 * "presenting evidence of a crime using evidence taken without permission of the criminals is something where most prosecutors exercise prosecutorial discretion"
 * "Exposing the crimes against the laws of the UK and against the normal practices of science was a justifiable act in my opinion"
 * "If you publicly release evidence of criminal activity, I think that the law generally looks leniently on such cases"
 * "In any case, the rights of the criminals who had their acts exposed should not be the top priority"

In general, on these archive pages (at least those I have viewed), it is very interesting to compare the laid-back way in which the claims of criminal behaviour by identifiable scientists were fended off with the frantic efforts to get euphemisms into the article for hacking and stealing of emails, which is still being examined by the police. The latter appear to me very similar in style to what I have seen here. The similarity is striking, given that those discussions were about article space while we are here talking about talk space, and given the contrast to the other side's relaxed reactions to the (ultimately disproved) claims of criminal behaviour. Hans Adler 19:48, 24 November 2011 (UTC) slightly expanded 19:52, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I disagree, Hans hasn't done anything wrong (and I see that Hans has just explained this himself better in his reply above mine). I don't remember there being any issues with talk page comments implying criminal behavior when it was a relevant issue, atleast when I was still editing such articles. This used to be only an issue when making edits to an article. If we were to consistently use the very narrow interpretation of BLP, that would severely hamper editing controversial articles. While I don't at present edit such articles frequently, I'm pretty sure this standard isn't actually applied consistently, leading to bias by selective censorhip. Count Iblis (talk) 19:49, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't looked at Hans's examples, but, to both of you: WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. Your accusation of "selective censorship" is silly. As the editor who removed Hans's comments, I did it because I became aware of it, which tends to be true for most edits I make. The articles that were indirectly involved weren't on my watchlist. I just read the topic on BLPN and acted.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:56, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Selective censorship arises because people only invoke BLP selectively on issues they feel strongly about, not because there is a conscious attempt at censorship. And I don't think Hans' example can be dismissed as crap, even if it is in some sense "crap", because that article was the focus of many Admins and of Jimbo himself. There has been an ArbCom case about the CC articles and that article was also a primary focus in that case. So, this isn't like some article that has been edited outside the view of the community where any alledged lack of obedience to policies can be attributed to lack of community oversight.
 * We can thus conclude that editors are usually free to make comments like the one Hans made. Count Iblis (talk) 20:33, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What is that, the royal "we"? This will probably be my last comment because the discussion is going nowhere. Hans complained that in other instances comments about criminals weren't removed, but they were here. You called that "selective censorship". I cited something that is often cited for essentially the proposition "two wrongs don't make a right", or just because crap exists elsewhere isn't a justification for the crap that exists here. The crap is the BLP violations.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:56, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * This whole argument appears to hinge on whether police torturing or inflicting considerable pain on peaceful protesters who are not resisting arrest is or is not criminal, and whether we have to await conviction before describing activity as "criminal" on talk pages. In the topic area described by Hans, various editors called a scientist a "criminal" for discussing his intention to delete his own emails, when the relevant authority had decided not to even investigate whether any "criminal" deletion of emails had taken place as it was time-barred. Note that "criminal" in this case means that actual deletion of FOIA'd information can be tried in a magistrates court, and individuals can be given a fairly small fine if convicted. So, it's obviously fair comment to describe the policeman's conduct as outrageous and inhumane, but technically it's not criminal. Whether deleting such wording serves to inflame talk page discussions is an interesting question, as interfering with other editors' comments is very much frowned on. However, if this is considered appropriate I'll certainly be quicker to delete such wording in future. However, it does not seem to me that using such wording in a colloquial sense rather than a technically correct sense should lead to a block, and editors must remain free to discuss accusations which are well supported by reliable sources. . . . dave souza, talk 20:38, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Seems to me you're making this unduly complex. In the issue here (not other instances in other places at other times), Hans baldly stated that Pike was a criminal. It wasn't sourced to anything - it was and remains Hans's abiding opinion. To the extent there might be some discussion by different sources about whether and when the use of pepper spray constitutes "torture", that is rather complicated and better suited for an article on torture or on pepper spray or in someone's graduate thesis, but not tacked on to a discussion of this particular officer and his use of pepper spray.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:03, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The point that Wheaton, senior counsel for the Oakland-based First Amendment Project, said that police used "it as a torture device to force someone to do something" is something specifically related to the article, and should properly be discussed on the talk page. Hans is of course entitled to hold the view that such action should be criminal, but as Charles J. Key, a former lieutenant with the Baltimore Police Department who wrote the department's use-of-force manual, has described it as "fairly standard police procedure" then we have simply to accept that some regimes think such actions are normal. By the same standards, we should be careful about how we describe any abhorrent actions, no matter how outrageous they seem to us, if they're accepted by a despotic regime. So, better wording is advisable, but the point stands that the police behaviour looks outrageous from the perspective of many reasonable people, and that should not be obscured in the article. . dave souza, talk 21:55, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There's quite a bit of sourcing about pepper spray and torture here though the mode of application was different in that incident. The issue with "criminal" is it has somewhat separate legal and moral meanings, and WP policy seems to be to reserve it for the strict legal meaning were the person was actually convicted in a court of law.  By that standard we can't call 9/11 suicide pilot Mohammed Atta a criminal (they didn't find enough of him to put on trial), so we have to use other terminology.  That seems a little silly, but it should be doable with a bit of careful phrasing. 67.117.144.140 (talk) 22:37, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * BLP is not an issue where Atta and his gang are concerned. Calling him a "criminal" would be fairly redundant, as I can't think of any circumstances where his actions wouldn't be criminal. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:17, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If he's dead it's not an issue, but your failure to think of circumstances does not override the proposed standard that an actual conviction has been secured. It astonishes me that the policeman's actions aren't illegal, but the world has many strange places. . . dave souza, talk 00:04, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If I understand what you're saying, I disagree with at least parts of it. For example, whether to report on what Wheaton said in the article can certainly be discussed on the Talk page, but it is a violation of BLP rules for an editor to claim that Pike is a torturer. It is also unnecessary to the discussion. The issue is whether Wheaton's opinion is relevant, not whether it's true or universally held. I'm not even sure I "approve" of your use of the words "abhorrent" and "despotic", which also seem to express your personal opinion and do not advance a discussion of what is appropriate to include in an article. As to what outrages "reasonable" people, that's not really our concern. Nor is it our place to decide which people are reasonable and which are not. I also didn't understand your edit summary, but that's not a big deal, just a minor puzzlement for me.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:38, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If an editor presents reliable sources that Pike was acting as a torturer, then that discussion is appropriate on the talk page. In principle everything must reflect published opinion, not the views of editors, but there's always been reasonable leeway on talk pages to discuss how best to produce a properly sourced neutral article. . . dave souza, talk 00:04, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Some looseness on talk pages is necessary for collaborative editing, as long as it doesn't go into a rathole of debate unconnected to the article (NOTFORUM). I think Dave souza, Hans Adler, Count Iblis, and myself have expressed concern in various ways about overly bureaucratic handling of the issue by some participants here.  The existence of NOTBURO, NOTSTATUTE, IAR, etc. show (IMO) that we're supposed to care more about adhering to the spirit than the letter of policies, so should deal with things on a case-by-case basis, considering real-world context as well as on-wiki context, and in general trying to operate through good judgment rather than bot-like reflexes.  67.117.144.140 (talk) 01:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Closing this
Okay. So the original issue was Hans reporting another editor for blanking parts of his comments. At the very least, we have consensus that BLP supports this action. Hans has not continued to revert since then. As such, this doesn't seem to be a live ANI issue; there are certainly unresolved matters as regards exactly what is permissable under BLP outwith articlespace, but ANI is obviously a lousy forum for that. Any objections to closing this? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 23:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * To explain what my objection is at this point would be too convoluted, so I'll go with no. :-) (Even this post was unnecessary, but what the hell.) --Bbb23 (talk) 23:40, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This is a misrepresentation of the state of the discussion. There is no consensus that BLP supports the blanking, just a small number of previously involved editors dominating the discussion, in particular Bbb23, who this report was about. This would be inconsistent application of policy to protect criminals who act under the guise of authority in the United States. No other country gets this kind of privilege here, and I have shown above that when editors call living people criminals on a talk page then that is usually suffered even if when it's hardly reasonable and part of a systematic, organised defamation campaign against scientists. Hans Adler 23:56, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What has global warming got to do with pepper spray? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If you look above, you'll note that editors have called scientists "criminals", which is the main topic of this thread. The argument is that we should not describe publishing science or misuse of pepper spray as criminal activities without a court conviction. . . dave souza, talk 00:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you require for consensus, Hans. By my reckoning, the following editors opposed what you did and supported the removal: Beyond My Ken, Baseball Bugs, Rklawton, Chris Cunningham, SPhilbrick, and Off2riorob. Now that Dave souza has clarified (for me at least) his view, I would say two editors agree with you: Dave and Count Iblis.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:05, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps these editors should clarify if they support mass removal of other editor's comments, as shown in the diff I've given below. That looks to me to be clearly disruptive, and would have resulted in sanctions in discussions on a more touchy topic. . . dave souza, talk 00:12, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a touchy area. But if someone commits a BLP violation, such comments are subject to removal. Ideally, whoever makes BLP-violating comments should see the error of his ways, and remove such comments himself. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:27, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * My view [expressed above] is that the action of blanking the word "criminal" is arguable, rather a novelty which may cause more disruption than help. It's questionable if BLP goes that far on talk pages, already we've seen an argument from incredulity that a terrorist's actions would not be seen as criminal in some places even without a criminal conviction, which effectively defeats the argument made for the blanking. Moreover, looking at this diff Bbb23 wasn't just deleting the word "criminal", but was disrupting normal talk page discussion by removing large chunks of the arguments put by another editor. That contravenes WP:TPOC, and should not be repeated. . dave souza, talk 23:58, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I strongly believe that good editors should be supported, but dave souza is overdoing it. The diff just above shows Bbb23 removing BLP violations from a talk page. That is standard—the only issue is that it involves an editor of such high standing. Yes, the pepper spraying was abominable, but no page at Wikipedia is appropriate for commentary on whether the perpetrator is a "criminal". If that is permitted as obviously appropriate, there is no limit to what nonsense can be added by POV pushers at any talk page. Johnuniq (talk) 01:13, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Removing BLP violations from a talk page is commendable. Removing something that is not a BLP violation and then continuing to claim it is a BLP violation after it has been pointed out that it is not by reference to the unambiguous wording of the relevant part of BLP (WP:BLPTALK, which defines the circumstances under which content may be removed) is not OK. And repeating the claim that a specific editor has been engaging in BLP violations, without proof, is a personal attack and, ironically, a BLP violation. Hans Adler 01:39, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * @ Johnuniq, I'm willing to accept that "criminal" is incorrect in that the behaviour is clearly legal, even though that seems pretty shocking, so it's ok to redact "criminal". That doesn't mean it's ok to remove comments that don't use the term and are legitimate in talk page discussion. Thus "Pepper spraying someone on close range under controlled conditions, as very obviously happens in that video, is a clear case of torture" looks perfectly reasonable to me: the fact that torture is condoned is extraordinary. Got a better term for casually inflicting pain on people who are passively kneeling? Similarly, when Hans wrote "The criminal act is clearly visible in videos that were broadcast on TV all over the world" it would be reasonable to redact one word, "The act is clearly visible in videos that were broadcast on TV all over the world." Instead, Hans's post was removed leaving just his signature, " Hans Adler 20:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)" That's clearly contrary to WP:TPOC and disrupted normal discussion. . . . dave souza, talk 04:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think I'm wasting my breath here responding to Dave's persistence in criticizing the wrong editor. But I'll make a couple of comments. Following up on Baseball's comment above, I gave Hans an opportunity to correct his own errors, and he did not do so. Indeed, even now, he continues to insist he was right (and arguably would do it again). In addition, I spent some time trying to remove only those comments that were violations. You (Dave) may think I deleted more than was necessary, but that's clearly a judgment call, and reasonable minds can differ on that point. Even so, as I implied at the beginning of this paragraph, you should focus on the editor who created the problem instead of focusing on the editor who tried to remedy it. Editors here are often given a lot of leeway to clean up messes, and it's not always incumbent on those editors to do a perfect job as the mess wasn't of their making. I still believe my selective removals were reasonable, but, more important, your fixation on that aspect of this problem is misplaced.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:05, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I did not create a problem, and your continued insistence that I did although you are obviously wrong is beginning to amount to personal attacks. I must ask you not to repeat the personal attacks, i.e. to either provide evidence, based on a reasonable reading of WP:BLP or any other policy that does not conveniently ignore the first sentence of WP:BLPTALK, or to simply shut up. Hans Adler 15:28, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

As I'm counting it, I've seen at least five experienced editors/admins who all agree that Hans edits needed to be removed and just one less experienced editor supporting him. In my view, this is overwhelming evidence that Hans made a mistake. As noted above, Hans has changed his behavior, so this may well be a non-issue now. Rklawton (talk) 23:30, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I pretty much agree with Dave souza here. This is also pretty lame.  Does Rklawton even know what the term "due process" actually means?  Does he really think what people say to each other on some stupid web site affects anyone's legal right to it, when the person under discussion is the subject of wall-to-wall news coverage all over the world?   WP:BLP exists for good reasons and Hans got a bit worked up last night in response to provacation and has said as much. Hans should cool it with the word "criminal" by now, but I think Rklawton is a bit confused about why we do this stuff. 67.117.144.140 (talk) 01:24, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * @ Rklawton, your count appears to be simplistic and inaccurate. I'll agree that this appears to be a non-issue now, please drop the stick and back off. . . dave souza, talk 23:45, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Hans' Incivility
Since this is related to Hans' edits and the resulting discussion above, I would like to invite comment on Hans' incivility toward me on his talk page. I became involved in this matter as an uninvolved admin who reviewed the discussion, the edits in question, and the policy and subsequently warned Hans regarding his editing and the potential consequences. Following this initial warning, I have received a stead stream of insults from Hans - who (in spite of his change of behavior) - seems to believe that the above thread supports his edits when this is in fact is not the case. It is my hope that a review of his talk page (here) might elicit comments promoting further changes in his behavior. I would take this up in the usual place, but as these two issues are intertwined, and the editors to this thread are familiar with the subject, you all might make short work of it. Rklawton (talk) 23:30, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * @ Rklawton, you've persisted in a rigid and narrow definition of what you claim is unacceptable description, to the detriment of article improvement and reasonable discussion. You've also noted that Hans has moderated his behaviour, but you seem to want to keep bullying him into submission. Please back off and act in a more collegiate way. . . dave souza, talk 23:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Weird defamation campaign
(difficult to bring forth since the user keeps deleting talkpage threads)
 * threads on various admin talkpages
 * User talk:Qwyrxian - Enquiry ref: a blocked user unsupported accusations of WP:TROLLING, WP:HARASSMENT, and WP:STALKING; "..User:DIREKTOR who has a habit of trolling, accusing and harassing editors. He did it to me and I very nearly got disciplined just for defending myself. I walked away, but Daneto is being stalked by DIREKTOR. If this has anything to do with his block, I can understand why Daneto has posted to users who have also been victimised by DIREKTOR."
 * User talk:DVdm - Nikola Tesla troubles unsupported accusations of WP:HARASSMENT; "troublemaker", "crazy person"
 * User talk:DVdm - Nikola Tesla issue "I'm not going to allow the likes of user DIREKTOR to get me in trouble! There's a history there, I'm sure you know it. He's at it again,"
 * User talk:Alpha Quadrant - User:DIREKTOR "I wish you to know I am grateful for your intervention and for not involving me by notifying me. Luckily I watch DIREKTOR every once in a while - without communicating at all - to see what he's doing. AQ, he's done this to other users!"
 * User talk:Master of Puppets - Admin's notice board, complaint unsupported accusation of WP:STALKING; "user DIREKTOR has been awfully quiet of late, and seemingly very nice. It made me nervous", "DIREKTOR is getting out of hand", "can you please help with this? DIREKTOR ought to be blocked for this", "can this indicate DIREKTOR is stalking me? If so, DIREKTOR may be stalking others. What a hassle!", etc.
 * User talk:Binksternet - Nikola Tesla help "DIREKTOR - causing problems"
 * User talk:McGeddon - Nikola Tesla "Why do you defend the actions of this troublemaking editor?" "DIREKTOR is well known for starting fights and then threatening to report people."
 * threads on User talk:Djathinkimacowboy
 * The User:DIREKTOR Factor a thread not intended for communication, but dedicated to attacking my statements in various ways.
 * Sakharov, Andrei, Russian physicist, and I do not think there is such a user here, is there? a thread not intended for communication, but used to imply I am a Stalinist Communist. "Hopefully you all comprehend what I am trying to say to you."
 * other
 * "I am tired of the virtually unchecked depredations of User:DIREKTOR. Let us hope Daneto can have a future here...but it's doubtful. He's been too hurt and I see this as becoming a blood feud if unchecked any longer."
 * User talk:Timbouctou - "Have you seen User:DIREKTOR trying to imply that you are my sock?! Better watch him, T!"
 * removed a barnstar I awarded with "garbage removal day!"
 * "All you like to do is hang about and cause trouble when others make mistakes. I made a mistake, I corrected it, I am sorry about it and that is all so much more than YOU will ever do!"
 * deleting my talkpage comment
 * talkpage harassment
 * "you are simply out of control. I sincerely hope you are blocked" "And now I am calling for you to be disciplined for your trolling, insulting and trouble-making"
 * warning me by template to stop WP:EDIT-WARRING - when I had not even edited an article, much less reverted something(!)
 * "May I suggest you meditate on your rudeness"

Believe it or not, I could go on and on, but I have work to do. This harassment and slander by User:Djathinkimacowboy has been going on for several weeks now, almost since User:Djathinkimacowboy joined Wikipedia on November 3. People I never even met are being canvassed and pestered by this user in an attempt to convince them I am some sort of "harassing", "stalking" "troll". Its amazing, you may not believe me, and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong - but I've done nothing this person has kept accusing me of. I've neither WP:STALKED nor WP:HARASSED anyone, I've not WP:EDIT-WARRED, and I've done nothing that could even remotely be characterized as WP:TROLLING. We've had NO content disputes whatsoever. In fact, I've noticed User:Djathinkimacowboy's behavior for the first time when I requested that some other user apologize on Talk:Nikola Tesla - he posted a thread on User talk:DVdm with Oh, please come over and see the talk page. It has erupted due to the harassment by user DIREKTOR, who I understand is a troublemaker. Good thing it's protected! This stuff on the talk page is frankly garbage. Now two editors are over there dancing round the issue like crazy people. A user that (at that time) joined a week ago "understands I am a troublemaker", and proceeds to call me names - without even having talked to me. That seems to me very suspicious and strange.

Personally I think this warrants sanctions, but I really don't care if he gets blocked or not - I just want to stop opening my watchlist and seeing he's pestering another user with his hostile, insulting, and slanderous nonsense of the above sort. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 14:55, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

'''This is something I am really beginning to resent. I claim my right to respond here:'''

1. This is getting out of hand - hence the reasons for my occasional warning posts.

2. This user is not being entirely straightforward.

3. I suggest to you that the above post tells you all you need to know about what this user does most of the time on Wikipedia.

4. I have left this user completely alone as I was advised to do. Does this user leave me or others alone?

5. I quote from the above: "I just want to stop opening my watchlist to see he's pestering another user with his hostile, insulting, and slanderous nonsense of the above sort." He opens his watchlist and sees what I am posting to other users?

And no one thinks that is alarming? Djathink imacowboy  15:07, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, because if you think of how a watchlist works, you keep posting on the pages of people he has watchlisted for some other reason, probably because they edit in the same area and have previously exchanged messages. Why would that be alarming? Can I recommend you stop posting onwiki comments about DIREKTOR on other people's talkpages, they are about the contributor, not the content, and risk stepping over into personal attacks, and a couple of them look like running the risk of crossing into canvassing.  If you want to discuss content - do it on article talkpages.  If you have something to say about DIREKTOR, say it to him. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:25, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Elen, your point is well taken. I appreciate your remarks and defer to you. Please see my further posting below on this date. Djathink imacowboy  02:02, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I am not convinced (as yet) that the user understands what's wrong with the above, and that he is about to stop any time soon. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 16:00, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * These two users each seem to bring out the worst in the other. Neither can bear to see a talk page post by their nemesis without responding in a sarcastic, combative or dismissive way. Each would find their life on WP much better if the other would leave them alone, but each is waiting for the other to be the first to back away. This is not to defend the sad litany of poor judgement on the part of Djathink  imacowboy  which  DIREKTOR  lists above. Virtually all of those are indefensible (apart from  Djathinkimacowboy removing a barnstar placed on their talk page by Direktor in what I can only see as a sarcastic manner). Options? Some kind of interaction ban between the two, perhaps?  Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  16:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Something preventing either of them from posting on other people's talkpages about these editors, putting their oar into discussions that other people are having etc etc. If either of them has a problem with the other, they can start an RfC/U and accept the consequences. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:26, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * @Kim Dent-Brown. For the record Kim, I don't write these threads on people's talkpages. I just sometimes notice them (since a lot of those people were automatically included on my watchlist) and respond to (some of) them. Its sort of like, "Djathinkimacowboy on Binksternet's talk? Not again...". I think its only natural to get peeved after reading some of the stuff above, and to try and prevent Djathinkimacowboy from convincing yet another user that I am, in fact, some sort of a troll account.


 * @Elen of the Roads. Exactly. Why in the world is this guy going around posting these sort of personal attack threads? If he has a problem with something - let him report me, or post an RfC, or whatever, and if he has some sort of content issue - lets have it on an article talkpage. Its weird its what it is. I'm not trying to get him blocked - he's new here, but will someone explain to him this isn't the way to go? All I'm trying to do is save myself the frustration at having to constantly see this guy's hostile slander and nonsense accusations all over Wiki.


 * Quite frankly, judging from the suspicious post I quoted in parentheses above - I think either he isn't a new user (which seems unlikely), or someone "recruited" him against me. You do not join Wikipedia with pre-conceived notions about people you never even met. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 20:36, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Listen folks, you do what you think is best. If you believe I have not tried to do the correct thing in this matter, you are mistaken; so be it. I can only repeat that I am tired of being hounded and followed by User:DIREKTOR. I have nothing against the user, do not know the user in any way except from here, and have no designs against the user. Is that understood? Djathink imacowboy  01:57, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * To both of the principals here. Each of you has what I can only describe as a morbid fascination with the other. You each say you have nothing against the other, if only they would leave you alone. Neither of you initiates anything against the other, you only react when the other does something aggressive towards you. The truth is you are each on a hair trigger as far as the other is concerned. I suspect you both check your watchlists often and are highly sensitised to seeing the others' name there; you can't help yourself but check the diff and almost always find something in the other's contribution to take offence at. "Leave each other alone" doesn't mean "Stop iniating baseless attacks against the other person". Neither of you would accept that you are doing this in the first place! It means "ignore the others posts, take their talk page off your watchlist, move away from articles you know they edit, stop checking their contribs to see what thay have been up to." If you stop following one another's activities and actively try to avoid one another, I guarantee things will improve! Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  15:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Wise words. As far as I'm concerned this matter is well closed and henceforth, forgotten. Djathink  imacowboy  23:30, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * @Kim, its easy to equate people, but I am not the one that has to "back off". I really am only responding to Dj's posts. All he has to do is stop berating me with other users and the weird, nonsense conflict disappears. But should he not do so, I can't very well be expected not to respond to someone calling me a "troll" and posting various insults all over Wikipedia talkpages. Its up to him entirely. For now I am indeed convinced I've seen the last of that sort of behavior, but I must ask: what happens if I'm wrong? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 23:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Look, DIREKTOR, from what I can see in this dispute, and which Kim seems to already be saying, is that this is a "snake eating its own tail" level of recursive retribution here. I know that, from your perspective, you are only responding to DJ's instigation.  However, from DJ's perspective, they are only responding to your instigation.  There's ultimately no point, at this point, in digging through this to see who fired the first volley.  At this point, the most constructive way forward is for both of you to simply ignore the other.  Don't wait for them to ignore you first.  Be the better person and beat them to it.  The first person to not be bothered and not respond and completely ignore the other one is the winner (noticing that the other person isn't ignoring you makes you lose, so don't say anything if, in fact, they are not ignoring you).  Now, who's going to be the first to win here?  -- Jayron  32  05:20, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

User repeatedly inserting questionable Commons uploads
Ras.sel's only edits so far have been to insert images that he uploaded to Commons into Chechnya-related articles. However, I have since found that he simply swiped them from the Internet and passed them off as his own work. I reported him to AIV yesterday, but no action was taken because he seemed to have stopped. Well, he's at it again today. He created an article, Galanchozh Lake, that contained an image I flagged as a copyvio, and also tried to restore a couple of images to Chechnya that have also been flagged as copyvios. Could someone be so kind as to send him to the penalty box? Thanks. HangingCurveSwing for the fence 14:36, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Someone from Commons will have to deal with those images ... ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 14:53, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Already alerted the Commons admins at the noticeboard there--but since he's showing obvious disregard for copyright, I don't think we need to keep him editing here. HangingCurveSwing for the fence 15:06, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If we found someone that was repeatedly adding images here that were obvious Flickrwashing, we'd block them for complicity in copyright infringement. The same should be true here.  Nyttend (talk) 15:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed, he's been warned for license laundering by a Commons admin. HangingCurveSwing for the fence 15:32, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * He's formally doing nothing wrong on en.Wikipedia ... he is doing wrong on Commons. Block him there, undo his links to the copyrighted images.  Kinda reminds me of how U-Haul registers all their trucks in Arizona because they believe they're more lax :-)  ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 15:39, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree--by inserting them into Wikipedia articles, he's violating WP:COPY (by passing off copyrighted material as his own) and WP:NFCC (since all of his uploads are easily replaceable by free images). So there are cross-wiki issues here that, to my mind, are a blockable offense on Wikipedia. HangingCurveSwing for the fence 15:48, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't mistake my meaning: just as if someone continually linked to youtube videos we would block, we could do the same here. My point is remove the videos, the incentive to link to them disappears, and it's dealt with "quasi-internally" :-)  ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 17:06, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I get your thinking but this is an excessively bureaucratic approach. If one editor uploaded the copyvios at commons and another editor (knowingly) put them in the articles after warnings, we'd block them. Since it's the same person, it's only worse. causa sui (talk) 21:44, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

And now it turns out that the article he created, Galanchozh Lake, has been flagged as a cut-and-paste copyvio of. So now he's crossed the line into creating copyvios on Wikipedia as well. HangingCurveSwing for the fence 18:29, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Since he has also created a copyvio on Wikipedia, I have blocked him from editing. I do agree with HangingCurve and causa sui here. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:35, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Now blocked on Commons as well by me. Users who deceive others to circumvent policy especially offend me. Dcoetzee 06:20, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Stephfo, disruptive editing after unblock
was blocked Sept 3rd for disruptive editing, but was unblocked late October after agreeing to work with a mentor on his talk page. This week, his problems have resumed, and he's been contacted by a slew of editors requesting that he work more productively. I notified his mentor when the problems began, and his mentor has been contributing actively to Stephfo's talk page, but to no avail. Recently, he's begun edit warring, making personal attacks, and slinging accusations of disruption and vandalism at other editors. I, his mentor, and other editors have requested that he stop editing until he can resolve these problems. He responded that he wasn't interested, and planned to continue editing anyway.

Please review his talk page for a small sampling of the issues. I'm afraid that, either due to competence, tendentiousness, or intentions, he's unable to contribute productively to the project, and is only serving as a disruption to the community. I feel that he may need to be reblocked.

Prior to bringing this issue here, I made my intentions clear, and asked him to reconsider, but instead of responding to me, he continued editing and then (presumably) logged off. For context, here's a previous ANI case, but most of his history is contained on his talk page (some of which has been deleted). I can provide more diffs if necessary. Notified Stephfo, Alpha Quadrant, Amatulic, and Dominus Vobisdu. Thanks. &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 21:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Pls. note as I was allowed to do so, I will present my defence in new section.--Stephfo (talk) 17:53, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * In my opinion, I believe the issue is due to the fact that he currently doesn't have a good grasp on several Wikipedia policies (in particular WP:IRS, WP:NPOV, WP:VANDNOT, and WP:NPA). Part of the problem is due to the fact that he appears to have a strong opinion regarding religion, creation, and evolution topics, resulting in further difficulty in remaining neutral when writing in these areas. Eventually, he may make good contributions in the area. I believe he needs to edit in other less controversial areas, where he can gain editing experience. I suggested he do this, but he continued to edit the in the topic. Before he is indefinitely blocked again, perhaps we could just try a six month topic ban from the areas of religion and creation/evolution. After that time period, he should have gained enough experience in editing and would have a better grasp on Wikipedia policies. Alpha_Quadrant    (talk)  21:42, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * My concern here is that he has previously said he will not do X or Y, and then has done X or Y. I am not sure that just a topic ban will do the trick.  I may just be cynical, but, that is my opinion.  Dbrodbeck (talk) 22:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * (Stephfo has never specified gender, and for that matter neither have I for myself. For some reason I have always thought of Stephfo as "she" but I'll use "he" established by precedent in this section unless Stephfo feels the need to correct it.)


 * I was one of several admins who declined one of Stephfo's frequent unblock requests back when Stephfo was indef-blocked. I also supported Stephfo's unblocking.


 * Since then, Stephfo has made the mistake of creating disputes in controversial areas, activity which resulted in blocking in the past. For the most part (except for in Christian terrorism), Stephfo has adhered to the spirit of WP:BRD, in that he actively uses talk page to challenge reverts. Unfortunately, Stephfo's conduct on talk pages, while civil and polite, borders on tendentious, causing the patience of others to wear thin. Whether deliberately or through misunderstanding, Stepho has given the appearance of ignoring explanations, demanding clarification for answers that have been given repeatedly, as well as some amount of Wikilawyering.


 * There's a battleground mentality evident here, where Stephfo sees atheism or anti-Christian bias everywhere, and feels that it is proper to "correct" this, not by attempting to re-write anything neutrally, but to introduce opposing bias, regardless of whether that bias is non-neutral, relies on fringe theories, misrepresents sources, or otherwise quotes sources out of context.


 * I think Stephfo can become a good contributor to Wikipedia. Re-enacting the prior indefinite block would be a mistake. At this point, however, I support the view of Stepho's mentor (Alpha Quadrant) above for a temporary topic ban of areas in which Stephfo evidently has a conflict of interest, namely articles with topics that would be controversial to fundamentalist Christians (creationism, evolution, articles critical of Christianity, and so forth). ~Amatulić (talk) 23:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I will try to challenge you, please explain why you deem an article on Christian terrorism as NPOV -balanced, I suggest to perform a survey within project Christianity members whether they support your assumption that given article is neutral in respect to Christian views on given topic, if they will agree with you, I accept your point, otherwise you should accept mine that article is really biased. I do not know single Christian who would hold such views as presented there and it is not true that I break NPOV rules, I never ever deleted opposing opinions AFAIK but always have tried to balance them in line with NPOV policy.--Stephfo (talk) 14:44, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Part of the problem I see is that the editor plainly doesn't have the English as a first language, but unfortunately has taken it as a personal attack that someone asked them about it. A good deal of the disputes seem to centre around not understanding what others are saying, and their own communications are not that great either. We could try a topic ban for a month - tell them to edit anywhere from architecture to zoology, but avoid creationism and intelligent design.  I don't want to stop them creating articles - the notability hurdle seems to have eventually been got over, and they can always just use a sandbox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elen of the Roads (talk • contribs) 00:03, 22 November 2011


 * I agree with everything said so far. His contributions to Busch and Hartnett were good ones (even if one doesn't quite meet WP:N), and I'd hate to see those sorts of contribs go, sparse as they are. On the other hand, he has a major problem communicating which is divorced from the topic area, and which seems unlikely to ever be fixed. Whether it stems from a language barrier or (more likely) competence, Stephfo has consistently shown that he simply cannot work with other editors on even the most basic of tasks. That's a problem for a collaborative project. Frankly, I would rather see him topic banned until he gains an understanding of policy (or indefinitely if coming back is too problematic) but after all we've been through, I simply cannot fathom any possible resolution than an eventual block; if topic banned, I fully anticipate these same issues will turn up everywhere he interacts with another user, and we'll be back here in no time at all. I mean, look at the "Big Bang" dispute he had with Farsight. Farsight's explanation couldn't have been clearer, but Stephfo drove him off in frustration, demanding he clarify every minor detail. His primary contribution in any topic is to frustrate and drive off productive users everywhere he goes. That's not a negligible issue.


 * Maybe I'm wrong. The issue may be a language barrier, exacerbated by a strong opinion on the topic, and perhaps with extensive mentoring on a neutral area, he'll improve. Perhaps a topic ban is worth a shot. However, if we go with a topic ban, it needs to be broad ("religion, science, and controversial topics"), and there needs to be an understanding that 1) his behavior thus far has been inappropriate, and 2) if it continues on other topics, he will be blocked. I have reservations on even this, since Stephfo does not yet have an understanding there even is a problem, much less what that problem is, so I can't imagine how he's going to change, but if users are willing to work with him to improve, then perhaps we can salvage a few of his positive contributions.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 01:15, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I can read Stephfo's native language (not perfect, but well enough to follow a discussion), and the problem has nothing to do with a language barrier. Wikipedia's problems with Stephfo predate his appearence on English WP. Before he came to English WP, he had been an editor on Slovakian WP as "Steffo" since April 25, 2011. (No outing here; Stephfo clearly identifies himself as Steffo []). He edits mainly articles related to creationism, and quickly gained a reputation there for being a POV warrior. He has been repeated warned by multiple co-editors that "Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. It's not for making statements either of your political, religious or other views", and that his edits were disruptive [] [].
 * Stephfo's debut here on English WP involved expanding a stub that he wanted to use in a discussion on Slovakian WP. He was discovered, and the article was deleted. A copy of it and it's history remain on his user page: [].
 * After that, he focused his attention on English WP, especially on the article on Intelligent Design, where his disruptive behavior led to a couple of blocks before he was eventually indefinitely blocked. As one of the main editors that dealt with Stephfo at that time, I can assure you that the experience was unpleasant to the extreme. He inserted highly POV material that was essentially OR and SYNTH based on unreliable sources, and when challenged, adopted a battlefield attitude that included abundant accusations of bad faith on the part of other editors. He engaged in interminable deadhorse arguments, ignoring the responses of other editors and repeatedly demanding answers to questions that had already been answered several times, or that were completely irrelvant to the topic.
 * Both content-wise and behavior-wise, his editing was vastly at odds with WP policies. He ignored repeated instructions to familiarize himself with WP policies, using them solely as a source of cherry-picked quotes taken out of context to support his own POV and behavior. He never demonstrated any interest in building consensus, and consistently treated anyone that disagreed with him as an enemy that was out to get him. He wasted huge amounts of his fellow editors' time in pointless deadhorse arguments and Wikilawyering. This is what led to his eventual indefinite block.
 * Stephfo appealed his blocks several times, during which he demonstrated that he did not understand why he was blocked, and placing the blame on other editors. Eventually, a sympathetic editor told him to find a mentor, and having done so, successfully appealed the block with their help.
 * After his return, Stephfo took his mentor's advice and avoided controversial topics like creationism for EXACTLY one month before returning to the article on Intelligent Design and resuming his previous disruptive behavior. In the discussion about a change he had made and was reverted, Stephfo wrote an astounding 31 posts in only 10 hours, which demonstrates that he barely took the time to read the responses of other editors, never mind to understand them. He repeatedly demanded answers to questions which had already been explained in great detail, and his posts and edit summaries demonstrated that he holds his fellow editors in very low regard, repeatedly calling their contributions vandalism, weird, odd, or just plain dishonest.
 * I've only peripherally participated in that discussion, but have been dealing with Stephfo on an AfD of one of his creationism-related articles. While his behavior there has been somewhat more civil, there still have been multiple accusations of bad faith as well as Wikilawyering. The most important thing, though, is that it is patently obvious that he does not yet understand what Wikipedia is about, and what the policies mean. Not even the core policies. And I have to conclude that he has absolutely no intention to ever educate himself in this matter.
 * He has ignored all warnings to cease his disruptive behavior, even those of his mentor. When it seemed that he had calmed down an tacitly agreed to stay away from the Intelligent Design article, he moved on to another highly controversial article on Christian Terrorism, where he is contnuing his POV warring.
 * I'm sorry, but unlike Amantulic and his mentor, Alpha Quadrant, I see no hope for Stephfo ever being a constructive editor here on WP. He is by nature first and foremost a contentious POV warrior, and he has come to WP in order to pursue his own agenda. Stephfo has amply demonstrated that he is a leopard that will not, and cannot, change his spots.
 * I believe the reasons he gave in his last block appeal and his month-long period of "good behavior" were not sincere, especially considering that that period of good behavior lasted EXACTLY one month. His behavior indicates that his agenda is fundamentally not comaptible with Wikipedia's mission, and that he has no intention of complying with WP policies. Most of all, there has been no improvement since before his block, and no sign that he intends to improve except for self-serving reasons.
 * I therefore recommend that he be indefinetely blocked. I would strongly object to only a topic ban, but if one is decided upon, it must include all religion-related topics, including atheism, creationism and all areas of science relating to creationism, including biology, geology, astronomy and cosmology, very broadly construed. And it should be indefinite. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:21, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You agree that the problem is that he cannot maintain a neutral point of view on this topic. If a topic ban were imposed, would that not solve the problem? As you have said, Stephfo had a productive period of editing while away from this topic. Indefinitely blocking him therefore seems a bit premature. At this point, I believe a temporary topic ban may be imposed, if anything is done about this. I don't believe that we should rule out the possibility that that as he gains experience, he could learn to edit this topic area neutrally. If after the topic ban is lifted, and he goes back to the same behavior, it could always be extended to indefinite. If after the time period he does fine in the area, then we won't need to do anything. Alpha_Quadrant    (talk)  01:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Alpha, but, as I said, I don't believe in the sincerity of Stephfo's one month of good behavior. I believe that during that period, he was just biding his time and itching to get back to POV warring. That is why a temporary topic ban simply will not work. The second the ban expires, Stephfo will undoubtedly resume his bad behavior. Stephfo is here on a mission, and that mission is fundamentally at odds with everything that WP strives to be. There is just no place for Stephfo in a collaborative project like WP in my view. He is far too hot-headed, rash, hasty and hostile to work with others. Even if we topic-ban him, he is eventually going to get into a dispute with other editors on non-controversial topics, and he will behave then as he has had on controversial topics. Frankly, we have spent a lot too much time indulging him and giving him second, third and fourth chances, and now you want to give him a fifth? Even after he has ignored your advice as his mentor? There is no point in chasing good money after bad anymore. Sorry, but I don't see any baby in the bathwater. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 02:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I am afraid that I have to agree with DV. Dbrodbeck (talk) 03:33, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I've seen editors with far worse behavior, who received much lighter sanctions; WikiManOne/BelloWello comes to mind. Alpha Quandrant, Stephfo's mentor, has been working with him and can best appraise the situation. If Alpha has that much faith in Stephfo--it's good enough for me. It's occasions like these where we need to trust in the mentorship system: it's here for a reason. – Lionel (talk) 06:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Mentoring works only with editors that are able to restrain themselves and consult with their mentors before making any rash moves, and then to accept the advice they receive. Stephfo is either incapable, unwilling, or both. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 15:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes. Stephfo is currently ignoring his mentor's advice. I don't know how a mentor is going to help when he's being ignored.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 16:44, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Currently, he is following my advice. I told him yesterday to stop editing articles until this was resolved. He has heeded my advice, and has not edited since then. Alpha_Quadrant    (talk)  21:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd like to ask whether I have right to defend myself and react to accusations presented. Thanks--Stephfo (talk) 11:13, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes you do. Please post here if you wish. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal
I propose a topic ban on Christian and science related articles, broadly construed, for a period of 6 months. During this 6 months Stephfo is expected to work closely with their mentor so that the same behavior does not repeat when the ban is over. If the behavior resumes after a period of six months or if the behavior continues into other topics, then ban extensions and blocks are expected, respectively.
 * Support as proposer. I share Dom's characterization above after being involved with the original editing disputes that got Stephfo blocked in the first place.  Without a doubt, I have never personally dealt with a more tendentious or disruptive editor.  I assume good faith on their part, in that I believe that they believe they are helping the encyclopedia, but results are results and the results are that this editor cannot seem to grasp nuanced WP policy or how editors are expected to interact.  However, we have reason to believe that this editor can function in less controversial areas and so I believe that a block is unnecessary until proven otherwise.  If s/he begins to act the same elsewhere then we'll know that it isn't limited to these articles, but in the meantime it's worth a shot.  N <sup style="color:red;">o f o rmation  <sup style="color:black;">Talk  18:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, when you reopened the topic of my past blockage, I regarded for tendentious approach the requirement that I should understand the 5 voices calling for inserting reliable source presented at the article talk page on one occasion as an consensus against inserting such document, and strange assertion that inserting this university source that 5 people called for was finally used as 1st reason for my blockage, because this insertion was in fact allegedly going against some hypothetical consensus, although it can be demonstrated that 5 people called for such insertion. --Stephfo (talk) 07:02, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Support, as a last chance to avoid being re-blocked. The emotions surrounding these articles make it all the more difficult for a new editor to get to know wikipedia policy. This will also allow the rest of the community to fully ascertain whether or not Stephfo is really interested in productive editing. eldamorie (talk) 19:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support with reservations: Based on what I've written above, it's obviously that I prefer an indefinite block. If a topic ban is decided upon, it must include all religion-related topics, including atheism, creationism and all areas of science relating to creationism, including biology, geology, astronomy and cosmology, very broadly construed. And it should be indefinite. I don't think he will ever be able to edit in those areas contructively. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:18, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose the topic ban as currently proposed, on Christian articles, broadly construed. Stephfo has been a good contributor to Christian articles that are non-controversial, such as Wilhelm Busch (pastor). Such articles don't invite POV-pushing, and Stephfo should be encouraged to continue creating such articles. I would support a ban from any topics that intersect controversially with conservative Christian beliefs, such as evolution, creationism, intelligent design, big bang theory, abiogenesis, molecular biology, terrorism, Islam, Muhammad, Buddhism, atheism, etc. &mdash; anywhere it's possible to push a Christian point of view, if such topics can be better defined. But an outright ban on any Christian topic does not seem reasonable for an editor who has demonstrated constructive activity in that area. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:27, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. Probably too late to change it now that it has this much input.  Should we start a new section and collapse this then?  N <sup style="color:red;">o f o rmation  <sup style="color:black;">Talk  22:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems the revised proposal below by DV is agreeable to everyone. I still think "indefinite, until a successful appeal" is preferable, but it appears we're all divided on that point.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 19:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Conditional support: I fully agree with DV. The topic ban would need to be religion, creationism, and related sciences, and it would need to be indefinite. Stephfo would be free to appeal the topic ban after demonstrating his willingness and competence to contribute positively; comments like this indicate Christianity alone will be insufficient, and if the ban is a definite period, Stephfo is likely to just "wait it out" without improving at all. If he's going to come back to these articles, he needs to first demonstrate he can do so without disruption.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 21:38, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose I would support a six month topic ban from Creation/Evolution topics and topics critical of Christianity, but encompassing the entire topic of science is way too broad. Under the current wording, he is banned from all types of science (literary, mathematical, social, etc.) I can't think of any articles that don't have something to do with one type of science or another. Even articles on companies fall within a type of science. Albeit, in a minuscule way, but with "broadly constructed", edits in the topic area could be interpreted as a violation. If we are going to make a topic ban, we need to make one that an editor can actually follow. Alpha_Quadrant    (talk)  21:40, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * How about "all controversial religion-related topics, including atheism and creationism, and all areas of the natural sciences relating to creationism, including pertinent areas of biology, geology, astronomy and cosmology, very broadly construed"? Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:47, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * That sounds quite reasonable. It is broad enough to cover the topic area that is a problem, yet not too broad that it covers half the encyclopedia. Alpha_Quadrant    (talk)  22:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to get him to understand that. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:11, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Excellent. If it's good enough for both of us, it should be acceptable to everyone. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 03:33, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose From what I have seen of User:Stephfo's edits, he is attempting to edit some articles in order to make them comply with WP:NPOV. Wikipedia Administrator User:TParis noted that "User:Dominus Vobisdu grosly violated procedure when he gave levels 1, 2, 3, and 4 warnings at the same time in this edit." I do not usually edit articles pertaining to Intelligent Design, etc. However, at one point in time, I saw a content dispute between User:Stephfo and User:Dominus Vobisdu, User:Noformation, et. al. and attempted to make a compromise in accordance with WP:NPOV. Nevertheless, I was strongly opposed by the editors there and left. I saw that User:Stephfo was trying his best to provide references and a version of the article acceptable to others. However, he was taunted by other users and was treated with disrespect. Rather that enforce this unreasonable topic ban, I would request that a Dispute Resolution regarding the matter take place, where a neutral user can mediate between the two parties here. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 04:13, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose This action is premature in the extreme. Stephfo's behaviour has changed: he has stopped edit warring and is using the talk page. In addition he is creating articles and thereby making positive and constructive contributions to the encyclopedia. As of Nov 24 he is abiding his mentors counsel. Look: I'm not saying he is a model editor. But just because certain editors have grown impatient with his verbosity is no reason for rash action. Considering he is no longer edit warring and is following his mentors advice I see no reason for drastic measures such as a topic ban. I emphatically urge that we give mentoring a chance. – Lionel (talk) 10:48, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Over the last few days, I have been debating whether or not a brief topic ban is needed yet. On one side, he is having trouble learning policy. Normally this would not be a problem. However, he was editing often contentious topics, where editors are much less forgiving of mistakes. Until Stephfo gains experience, it is likely he will continue to have problems with other editors in this area. With that said, there are not any issues that simply gaining experience editing can't fix. It is very evident that Stephfo is learning. He could continue to learn in this contentious area, but it will likely cause some controversy among editors who edit in the area. At this point, he isn't really doing anything that is blatantly disruptive. He is genuinely trying his best to edit in this topic area. While a topic ban would help him avoid controversy while learning policy, it may not be the best way to remedy this situation at the moment. I said above that yes, in the event a topic ban is needed, I would support. I am not sure a formal topic ban is needed at this point. My only concern is, if a topic ban is not placed, and another user takes this to ANI, how would it be handled? I am strongly opposed against a block. Given time, Stephfo has a potential to become a very good editor. Alpha Quadrant (alt)    talk  17:04, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Support. This is good last-chance offer for a very disruptive editor. I agree with DV that the next block should be indefinite. Binksternet (talk) 11:03, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Pls. advise what do you regard for very disruptive edits of mine and, if possible, provide the hyperlinks to the ones identified as such. Thanks a lot in advance.--Stephfo (talk) 22:41, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Support. This is I think the last hope for this user to show (s)he can become a more constructive editor. I also agree that if there will be another block it should be indefinite.  Dbrodbeck (talk) 03:13, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose The adversarial back and forth of the lengthy argumentation taking place at the AfD for John Hartnett, along with the excessive length of six months in the proposal, shows this proposal is not about improving the encyclopedia.  Unscintillating (talk) 05:31, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Add. “can you just back the hell off Stephfo”
As I was allowed to defend myself, I will try to use this opportunity step by step as soon as permission stays in force, even though having very limited possibilities as being on travel. I apologize as accusations are long, naturally my defense will most likely also be long, although I will try to do my best and partition it. First of all I’d like to point out that I see this ANI report in the context of following sentence: “can you just back the hell off Stephfo” and this general trend at WP:. I very much suggest those who accuse me of my bad English to help me with translation interpretation of this phrase, as I only manage to find Spanish explanation (I had only one semester of Spanish) and that mentions something about “a rather rude way of saying” something, possibly insult, what I would not believe my good-faith assuming fellow editor have anything to do with. I would like to say that I was participating on translation project for fund-rising (“ Your translations make the fundraiser great!”; ), but in light with these current trends at WP I stopped and currently I’m hesitant whether I should continue. Nevertheless, please free to judge myself independently of this fact and block me if you deem as appropriate. I”ll try to be brief: To be continued later.
 * 1. Add. “Recently, he's begun edit warring”  Please note I was not edit warring but following WP:VAND advise: “If you see vandalism in an article, the simplest thing to do is just to remove it. … With undetected vandalism, editors may make edits without realizing the vandalism occurred.” If you look at reason for deletion, it states: “this isn't in the body, and so does not belong in the lead.” What is false reason in discrepancy with reality as I explained in my revert summary. Vandalism might seem to be too strong word, but I believe still the fact that user have not provided any other reason than false one fully entitled me to revert back. Imagine what most of the people trying to get me blocked here would do if I start remove their content by reasoning “this isn't in the body, and so does not belong in the lead” even if it clearly would be there. Also Note: “Assess whether the edit was made in good faith or bad faith. If it is in good faith, it is not technically vandalism, ... If it is in bad faith, then it is vandalism and you may take the appropriate steps to remove it.” I evaluated it as bad-faith because in discrepancy with accusations the article body clearly contained this information in section “Christian attitude to terrorism” referred to as missing. Jess continues arguing that I’m allegedly edit warring but escapes discussion at talk page where the argument “I doubt you read edit summaries, if you would, you would find that there is a section named "Christian attitude to terrorism", it cannot be overlooked although I'm admitting it can be misunderstood” is clearly stated.
 * 2. Add. “After that, he focused his attention on English WP, especially on the article on Intelligent Design, where his disruptive behavior led to a couple of blocks before he was eventually indefinitely blocked.”  Please note I’m not aware of any my activity on that page allegedly occurring there before my last unblock and this information is taking me by surprise. Anybody interested can verify in history of Intelligent Design edits.
 * 3. Add. “Prior to bringing this issue here, I made my intentions clear, and asked him to reconsider, but instead of responding to me, he continued editing and then (presumably) logged off.” -> In reality I just went for business trip with no access to Internet.
 * 4. Add.” I, his mentor, and other editors have requested that he stop editing until he can resolve these problems.” – As a matter of fact, I did stop right after reading his message about (although technically there might be one more later-stamped message given the fact I was involved in discussion and read message only afterwards) and Jess broke his word to put ANI report only if I continue editing: “This is one last request to stop… If you can't agree to do that, I plan to take this back to WP:ANI.”
 * 5. Add. “Now, the only correct answer to this post is "Yes, sir. I understand, and will comply". I'm not at all interested in hearing you protest, object or defend yourself anymore, nor is anyone else.” I’d like to ask dear administrators if someone would leave at talk page of theirs message like this, if their response would be “Yes, sir/Mr(s). Dominus Vobidsu, I understand, and will comply” . Personally I would not deny anybody right to defend himself if we would have a dispute over any topic and I regard such denial for rude. I also had an encounter with DV after he was pushing the idea that he found “gross fundamental errors in basic biology and biochemistry” in one of my source ("I've read the paper, and it is basically gibberish, and contains gross fundamental errors in basic biology and biochemistry. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:59, 18 July 2011 (UTC) ") but in fact refused to enlist what the alleged errors should be (“Would it be please possible to enlist the three major fundamental errors in basic biology and biochemistry you have managed to find in that text? Thanx--Stephfo (talk) 12:22, 20 July 2011 (UTC)"). My reading of that non-collaborative attitude was (just my interpretation of attitude, not actual statement by VD): “it is not important if there are claimed problems, if I do not like it, I can state whatever I want and you have no choice but to accept it.” I wonder if it is encouraged at WP to remove article content by arguing that it contains errors but not stating a single one. Should I do the same and it will be accepted? I have nothing against VD, but experiences like this really make it hard to keep the rule on good faith and civility in mind when dealing with him. Nevertheless, I’m always able to excuse myself if I do anything wrong and I’m trying to do my best and ask for pardon if I might have harm him/her anyway. - just explanation why our relations and collaborations are so challenging.--Stephfo (talk) 23:00, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Stephfo, the behaviour that is causing difficulty is set out above. You'll see it that a number of editors have given statements. The community thinks that a topic ban as set out would be beneficial for a while, to allow you to gain editing skills in less contentious areas.  Would you be prepared to consider avoiding the areas that are problematic for a while? Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:14, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "set up above" is very vague term to accept that involves accusations of alleged edit warring even though I just did exactly what WP recommends to do when somebody deletes content based on a claim that is in discrepancy with reality. You would need to be more specific and explain why such things should be allowed at WP and whether you grant me the same right - to delete content from article leads by making claims "this isn't in the body, and so does not belong in the lead" even though the truth is exactly opposite. If not, I'd like to learn why there should be such double-dealing. It is also a test for your intellectual honesty - if you do not accept my crystal-clear point here, it is awkward to demand someone else to accept such vaguely defined accusations. Please, explain. Thanks--Stephfo (talk) 13:32, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Stephfo - the proplems that people are reporting are set out (not set up) above. Wikipedia does not tell you to keep reverting and call other editors vandals. It tells you to discuss the matter. It doesn't tell you to attack other editors. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:04, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry for typo in set out. As for the remaining reaction, does it mean that if I do the same action as the one that I corrected, namely if I would delete from article leads parts by making declarations that "this isn't in the body, and so does not belong in the lead" even though it can be clearly demonstrated that it is there, that you will support me in doing such activities and you will try to get blocked people who will correct it after me and you will blame them for edit warring? Sounds strange to me, I apologize for any inconvenience, but I have all reasons to believe it would not be so. --Stephfo (talk) 20:37, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Weird defamation campaign
(difficult to bring forth since the user keeps deleting talkpage threads)
 * threads on various admin talkpages
 * User talk:Qwyrxian - Enquiry ref: a blocked user unsupported accusations of WP:TROLLING, WP:HARASSMENT, and WP:STALKING; "..User:DIREKTOR who has a habit of trolling, accusing and harassing editors. He did it to me and I very nearly got disciplined just for defending myself. I walked away, but Daneto is being stalked by DIREKTOR. If this has anything to do with his block, I can understand why Daneto has posted to users who have also been victimised by DIREKTOR."
 * User talk:DVdm - Nikola Tesla troubles unsupported accusations of WP:HARASSMENT; "troublemaker", "crazy person"
 * User talk:DVdm - Nikola Tesla issue "I'm not going to allow the likes of user DIREKTOR to get me in trouble! There's a history there, I'm sure you know it. He's at it again,"
 * User talk:Alpha Quadrant - User:DIREKTOR "I wish you to know I am grateful for your intervention and for not involving me by notifying me. Luckily I watch DIREKTOR every once in a while - without communicating at all - to see what he's doing. AQ, he's done this to other users!"
 * User talk:Master of Puppets - Admin's notice board, complaint unsupported accusation of WP:STALKING; "user DIREKTOR has been awfully quiet of late, and seemingly very nice. It made me nervous", "DIREKTOR is getting out of hand", "can you please help with this? DIREKTOR ought to be blocked for this", "can this indicate DIREKTOR is stalking me? If so, DIREKTOR may be stalking others. What a hassle!", etc.
 * User talk:Binksternet - Nikola Tesla help "DIREKTOR - causing problems"
 * User talk:McGeddon - Nikola Tesla "Why do you defend the actions of this troublemaking editor?" "DIREKTOR is well known for starting fights and then threatening to report people."
 * threads on User talk:Djathinkimacowboy
 * The User:DIREKTOR Factor a thread not intended for communication, but dedicated to attacking my statements in various ways.
 * Sakharov, Andrei, Russian physicist, and I do not think there is such a user here, is there? a thread not intended for communication, but used to imply I am a Stalinist Communist. "Hopefully you all comprehend what I am trying to say to you."
 * other
 * "I am tired of the virtually unchecked depredations of User:DIREKTOR. Let us hope Daneto can have a future here...but it's doubtful. He's been too hurt and I see this as becoming a blood feud if unchecked any longer."
 * User talk:Timbouctou - "Have you seen User:DIREKTOR trying to imply that you are my sock?! Better watch him, T!"
 * removed a barnstar I awarded with "garbage removal day!"
 * "All you like to do is hang about and cause trouble when others make mistakes. I made a mistake, I corrected it, I am sorry about it and that is all so much more than YOU will ever do!"
 * deleting my talkpage comment
 * talkpage harassment
 * "you are simply out of control. I sincerely hope you are blocked" "And now I am calling for you to be disciplined for your trolling, insulting and trouble-making"
 * warning me by template to stop WP:EDIT-WARRING - when I had not even edited an article, much less reverted something(!)
 * "May I suggest you meditate on your rudeness"

Believe it or not, I could go on and on, but I have work to do. This harassment and slander by User:Djathinkimacowboy has been going on for several weeks now, almost since User:Djathinkimacowboy joined Wikipedia on November 3. People I never even met are being canvassed and pestered by this user in an attempt to convince them I am some sort of "harassing", "stalking" "troll". Its amazing, you may not believe me, and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong - but I've done nothing this person has kept accusing me of. I've neither WP:STALKED nor WP:HARASSED anyone, I've not WP:EDIT-WARRED, and I've done nothing that could even remotely be characterized as WP:TROLLING. We've had NO content disputes whatsoever. In fact, I've noticed User:Djathinkimacowboy's behavior for the first time when I requested that some other user apologize on Talk:Nikola Tesla - he posted a thread on User talk:DVdm with Oh, please come over and see the talk page. It has erupted due to the harassment by user DIREKTOR, who I understand is a troublemaker. Good thing it's protected! This stuff on the talk page is frankly garbage. Now two editors are over there dancing round the issue like crazy people. A user that (at that time) joined a week ago "understands I am a troublemaker", and proceeds to call me names - without even having talked to me. That seems to me very suspicious and strange.

Personally I think this warrants sanctions, but I really don't care if he gets blocked or not - I just want to stop opening my watchlist and seeing he's pestering another user with his hostile, insulting, and slanderous nonsense of the above sort. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 14:55, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

'''This is something I am really beginning to resent. I claim my right to respond here:'''

1. This is getting out of hand - hence the reasons for my occasional warning posts.

2. This user is not being entirely straightforward.

3. I suggest to you that the above post tells you all you need to know about what this user does most of the time on Wikipedia.

4. I have left this user completely alone as I was advised to do. Does this user leave me or others alone?

5. I quote from the above: "I just want to stop opening my watchlist to see he's pestering another user with his hostile, insulting, and slanderous nonsense of the above sort." He opens his watchlist and sees what I am posting to other users?

And no one thinks that is alarming? Djathink imacowboy  15:07, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, because if you think of how a watchlist works, you keep posting on the pages of people he has watchlisted for some other reason, probably because they edit in the same area and have previously exchanged messages. Why would that be alarming? Can I recommend you stop posting onwiki comments about DIREKTOR on other people's talkpages, they are about the contributor, not the content, and risk stepping over into personal attacks, and a couple of them look like running the risk of crossing into canvassing.  If you want to discuss content - do it on article talkpages.  If you have something to say about DIREKTOR, say it to him. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:25, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Elen, your point is well taken. I appreciate your remarks and defer to you. Please see my further posting below on this date. Djathink imacowboy  02:02, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I am not convinced (as yet) that the user understands what's wrong with the above, and that he is about to stop any time soon. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 16:00, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * These two users each seem to bring out the worst in the other. Neither can bear to see a talk page post by their nemesis without responding in a sarcastic, combative or dismissive way. Each would find their life on WP much better if the other would leave them alone, but each is waiting for the other to be the first to back away. This is not to defend the sad litany of poor judgement on the part of Djathink  imacowboy  which  DIREKTOR  lists above. Virtually all of those are indefensible (apart from  Djathinkimacowboy removing a barnstar placed on their talk page by Direktor in what I can only see as a sarcastic manner). Options? Some kind of interaction ban between the two, perhaps?  Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  16:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Something preventing either of them from posting on other people's talkpages about these editors, putting their oar into discussions that other people are having etc etc. If either of them has a problem with the other, they can start an RfC/U and accept the consequences. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:26, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * @Kim Dent-Brown. For the record Kim, I don't write these threads on people's talkpages. I just sometimes notice them (since a lot of those people were automatically included on my watchlist) and respond to (some of) them. Its sort of like, "Djathinkimacowboy on Binksternet's talk? Not again...". I think its only natural to get peeved after reading some of the stuff above, and to try and prevent Djathinkimacowboy from convincing yet another user that I am, in fact, some sort of a troll account.


 * @Elen of the Roads. Exactly. Why in the world is this guy going around posting these sort of personal attack threads? If he has a problem with something - let him report me, or post an RfC, or whatever, and if he has some sort of content issue - lets have it on an article talkpage. Its weird its what it is. I'm not trying to get him blocked - he's new here, but will someone explain to him this isn't the way to go? All I'm trying to do is save myself the frustration at having to constantly see this guy's hostile slander and nonsense accusations all over Wiki.


 * Quite frankly, judging from the suspicious post I quoted in parentheses above - I think either he isn't a new user (which seems unlikely), or someone "recruited" him against me. You do not join Wikipedia with pre-conceived notions about people you never even met. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 20:36, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Listen folks, you do what you think is best. If you believe I have not tried to do the correct thing in this matter, you are mistaken; so be it. I can only repeat that I am tired of being hounded and followed by User:DIREKTOR. I have nothing against the user, do not know the user in any way except from here, and have no designs against the user. Is that understood? Djathink imacowboy  01:57, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * To both of the principals here. Each of you has what I can only describe as a morbid fascination with the other. You each say you have nothing against the other, if only they would leave you alone. Neither of you initiates anything against the other, you only react when the other does something aggressive towards you. The truth is you are each on a hair trigger as far as the other is concerned. I suspect you both check your watchlists often and are highly sensitised to seeing the others' name there; you can't help yourself but check the diff and almost always find something in the other's contribution to take offence at. "Leave each other alone" doesn't mean "Stop iniating baseless attacks against the other person". Neither of you would accept that you are doing this in the first place! It means "ignore the others posts, take their talk page off your watchlist, move away from articles you know they edit, stop checking their contribs to see what thay have been up to." If you stop following one another's activities and actively try to avoid one another, I guarantee things will improve! Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  15:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Wise words. As far as I'm concerned this matter is well closed and henceforth, forgotten. Djathink  imacowboy  23:30, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * @Kim, its easy to equate people, but I am not the one that has to "back off". I really am only responding to Dj's posts. All he has to do is stop berating me with other users and the weird, nonsense conflict disappears. But should he not do so, I can't very well be expected not to respond to someone calling me a "troll" and posting various insults all over Wikipedia talkpages. Its up to him entirely. For now I am indeed convinced I've seen the last of that sort of behavior, but I must ask: what happens if I'm wrong? -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 23:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Look, DIREKTOR, from what I can see in this dispute, and which Kim seems to already be saying, is that this is a "snake eating its own tail" level of recursive retribution here. I know that, from your perspective, you are only responding to DJ's instigation.  However, from DJ's perspective, they are only responding to your instigation.  There's ultimately no point, at this point, in digging through this to see who fired the first volley.  At this point, the most constructive way forward is for both of you to simply ignore the other.  Don't wait for them to ignore you first.  Be the better person and beat them to it.  The first person to not be bothered and not respond and completely ignore the other one is the winner (noticing that the other person isn't ignoring you makes you lose, so don't say anything if, in fact, they are not ignoring you).  Now, who's going to be the first to win here?  -- Jayron  32  05:20, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

User repeatedly inserting questionable Commons uploads
Ras.sel's only edits so far have been to insert images that he uploaded to Commons into Chechnya-related articles. However, I have since found that he simply swiped them from the Internet and passed them off as his own work. I reported him to AIV yesterday, but no action was taken because he seemed to have stopped. Well, he's at it again today. He created an article, Galanchozh Lake, that contained an image I flagged as a copyvio, and also tried to restore a couple of images to Chechnya that have also been flagged as copyvios. Could someone be so kind as to send him to the penalty box? Thanks. HangingCurveSwing for the fence 14:36, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Someone from Commons will have to deal with those images ... ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 14:53, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Already alerted the Commons admins at the noticeboard there--but since he's showing obvious disregard for copyright, I don't think we need to keep him editing here. HangingCurveSwing for the fence 15:06, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If we found someone that was repeatedly adding images here that were obvious Flickrwashing, we'd block them for complicity in copyright infringement. The same should be true here.  Nyttend (talk) 15:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed, he's been warned for license laundering by a Commons admin. HangingCurveSwing for the fence 15:32, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * He's formally doing nothing wrong on en.Wikipedia ... he is doing wrong on Commons. Block him there, undo his links to the copyrighted images.  Kinda reminds me of how U-Haul registers all their trucks in Arizona because they believe they're more lax :-)  ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 15:39, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree--by inserting them into Wikipedia articles, he's violating WP:COPY (by passing off copyrighted material as his own) and WP:NFCC (since all of his uploads are easily replaceable by free images). So there are cross-wiki issues here that, to my mind, are a blockable offense on Wikipedia. HangingCurveSwing for the fence 15:48, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't mistake my meaning: just as if someone continually linked to youtube videos we would block, we could do the same here. My point is remove the videos, the incentive to link to them disappears, and it's dealt with "quasi-internally" :-)  ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 17:06, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I get your thinking but this is an excessively bureaucratic approach. If one editor uploaded the copyvios at commons and another editor (knowingly) put them in the articles after warnings, we'd block them. Since it's the same person, it's only worse. causa sui (talk) 21:44, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

And now it turns out that the article he created, Galanchozh Lake, has been flagged as a cut-and-paste copyvio of. So now he's crossed the line into creating copyvios on Wikipedia as well. HangingCurveSwing for the fence 18:29, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Since he has also created a copyvio on Wikipedia, I have blocked him from editing. I do agree with HangingCurve and causa sui here. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:35, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Now blocked on Commons as well by me. Users who deceive others to circumvent policy especially offend me. Dcoetzee 06:20, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Imitation username?
looks like an obvious dig at, especially when you consider the edit history. It is almost certainly a sockpuppet account although checkuser has been inconclusive. What do others think? Prioryman (talk) 07:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Could just be coincidence - Conway isn't an uncommon name, after all. But shouldn't this be at WP:UAA Just noticed the Scibaby connection. Keep watching? - The Bushranger One ping only 08:16, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Look again at the edit history - the editor is editing an article that the real WMC is also editing. That looks deliberate, not coincidental. Prioryman (talk) 08:30, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I hear quacking. --Cameron Scott (talk) 09:37, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * If he really wants to confuse us, turning his link blue might be advisable. Paul B (talk) 11:19, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Usernameblocked. -- zzuuzz (talk) 11:33, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

User:William M. Conway has now created while under a block for the first account. I have blocked the latter for block evasion (and the new username does not address the issues with the first username). Zzuuzz, you may want to further elaborate on the block. --Dirk Beetstra T C 16:01, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The person in question has not made yet another account User:Conway, William M.. That should be blocked as well.--70.24.209.180 (talk) 05:21, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * has done so. Prioryman (talk) 08:36, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Blocked user created a new account
is quite clearly blocked user . See discussion above at Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 05:06, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * My original account was blocked because my name resembles the name of another user.  The original blocking administrator told me I could create another account. My second attempt was similarly deemed to be too close to the other user as well. A second time the original blocking administrator told me I could create another account as long as it was completely different. I don't believe that this current account name can be at all confused with that of the other user in question. I have reversed my the order of my surname with my given name which should be visually distinct from the other user. Our surnames are not even the same so I don't believe that there can be any confusion at this point. --Conway, William M. (talk) 05:23, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Time to stop feeding the trolls. Just block, no further discussion necessary. Tarc (talk) 05:35, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That seems uncalled for. I am allowed to edit using my name just as the other user is. The issue seems to be the similarity in appearance of our names when written normally. So by reversing my surname and my given name the account names are now quite visually distinct. I am not claiming to be this other person. Hopefully that is clear. --Conway, William M. (talk) 05:45, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the general sentiment here is that the above is a falsehood, and this account was created to parody/mimic . Tarc (talk) 05:49, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I fail to see how my name parodies or mimicks or disparages this other user. What would be the point? I am just trying to find a reasonable way to edit using my name while addressing the concerns over possible confusion between the two of us. Do you really believe that people can't tell the difference between Conway and Connolley? --Conway, William M. (talk) 05:59, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * We have this thing called the duck test. Given your username and the article you appeared on, the duck test indicated you were intentionally mimicing User:William M. Connolley, who regulary edits that page. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Even if that were true the mimicking account has now been blocked. Do you feel that this one is still attempting to mimick the other user somehow? The names are quite distinct at this point. --Conway, William M. (talk) 06:18, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Even if it was your real name, the circumstances are such that you can't use it, in any form at all. Full stop.--Shirt58 (talk) 06:34, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I have asked the other user if they object to this current rendition of my name. If they object I have agreed to pick something totally unrelated to my name. If they don't object then I don't see why anyone else should. Let's see what they have to say. --Conway, William M. (talk) 06:39, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The user has been using these three accounts to edit-war against the 1RR restriction, here and here. Only edits are on a page like this at this particular time with this particular name? Looks very much like a duck to me, too.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:42, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * With all of the turmoil over my account I forgot about the 1rr restriction. I would self-revert but my change has already been undone. I apologize and agree to be more diligent in the future. --Conway, William M. (talk) 06:51, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

This isn't a new user (I forgot about the 1rr restriction. I would self-revert but). This is a sock, like the others, and now its a troll as well William M. Connolley (talk) 08:34, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's clearly someone who has edited before and most likely is currently blocked under another username. It's not Scibaby's style but there are plenty of other possible candidates (Marknutley, GoRight etc). Prioryman (talk) 09:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have to concur with all the blocks here. We have an account starting with "William M. Con" who all of a sudden starts editing on climate change articles. I find it nigh to impossible to AGF that this is a coincidence. –MuZemike 23:46, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Personal attacks on the lamest thing
Hi, the User:The Last Angry Man has been making uncivil comments and personal attacks both on my talk page and the article talk page Talk:Taliban. He tried to further malign it by reporting me on WP:AN3 which came as against him, and I think action should be taken against the user for both making the personal attacks as well as per WP:BOOMERANG. Refer to the report for background. Thanks. --lTopGunl (talk) 13:32, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As I said when I closed the AN3, discuss it nicely at WP:WQA - I don't see anything serious enough for blocks at the moment - indeed, TLAM did fail to look at WP:BOOMERANG, but I'm not blocking anyone for either the EW or the lame NPA, unless they continue. ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 13:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * At minimum, the user should get a fair warning from someone other than me, since you can assume what his remarks would be against me doing that. I hope he doesn't continue (he has been aggressive in the rfc on the same article). --lTopGunl (talk) 13:48, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You're suggesting that he hasn't :-) Of course, it's all well-and-good to warn a "retired" editor.  Easiest thing: he's an angry man, the last one (apparently).  Don't poke him, but let us know if it continues past this point.  I will (unfortunately) block if he returns to even a slow edit-war, or increases the personal attacks. ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 13:53, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * He actually put that "Retired" message there on Nov 4, but he appears to be anything but retired -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:57, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * You seem to be suggesting that there is normally some correlation between use of the retired template and a decline in editing activty. Not in my experience. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * ... hence the word "retired" is in quotes :-) ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 14:01, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I use to think that the "retired" and "semi-retired" tags meant that the user will only do occasional "non-controversial" copyedit/minor-edit work and stay away from drama venues but now I know that just the opposite is true. Now it seems that the primary purpose of those templates is either to make a statement about how mean other editors are to them (a "diva retirement") or to discourage editors from posting to their talk pages. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 14:37, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Alright. Got your point.
 * Another small issue, I removed the uncivil comments along with my own as per WP:COMMONSENSE & WP:IGNOREALLRULES (and also probably per WP:NPA) since they were useless in anycase and no other editor except me had commented there. He has reinstated and then posted me a warning template . Escalating? --lTopGunl (talk) 14:08, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In my original e-mail to him, I reminded him that he knows better than to edit-war on people's usertalk pages, and that archiving being set for 5 days is not appropriate. Although it's not on his talkpage, I consider him to be duly notified/warned. Nothing more to do or see unless it continues. ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 14:14, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Right. Request a neutral editor should remove this section: Talk:Taliban. Thanks. --lTopGunl (talk) 14:24, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's any need to remove anything - that section is closed now, the 3RR report against TopGun failed, and the archiving is set to 14 days. I don't think there's any admin action needed at this point, and it's best if people just take a breather now and give things time to cool down -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, that got closed after my last comment. Thanks. --lTopGunl (talk) 15:12, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Back again

 * Back with an editwar on another page. I was reverted on an article which followed 2 days of discussion on talk, and the editors asking me to provide some sources, which I did, now that being parallel to this incident TLAM comes in (probably hounding from my contributions list?) and starts to revert repeatedly calling all the sources, even when one source is a well known mainstream media source operating since 1941, unreliable. I've pointed out WP:NEWSORG policy to him, but he is not hearing at all.  . --lTopGunl (talk) 09:47, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Please see WP:NPOVN
Is there an administrator available today? This concerns the Ugg boots article. Previous use of sockpuppets by one editor, Illume1999, who has been indefinitely blocked for six months, is being used as an excuse to delegitimize anyone who adopts similar positions concerning article content. WLRoss is aggressively using SPA tags as part of a tireless campaign to win a content dispute. Specifically, I feel that his use of an SPA tag on a reference to the IP account 63.171.91.193 is inappropriate. I used this IP address and several others for about 18 months before starting my named account. Please review the contribution history and determine whether the SPA tag is appropriate. Liangshan Yi (talk) 15:31, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Could you please link to some diffs of what you feel to be the problematic behavior? And specify if this is happening on the talk page of the article, on users' talk pages, in multiple places, or what? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:50, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This is WLRoss replacing the tag (and one other whose existence may be defensible) after I removed them. I had been instructed by another editor, Bilby, that placing similar tags identifying a possible cultural bias was inappropriate. I think the indiscriminate use of such tags is inappropriate, but I do believe cultural bias affects this dispute. Liangshan Yi (talk) 16:24, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that SPA tags are only used by proponents of one side in an argument to undermine those arguing on the opposite side. In this case, the two SPA tags seem to be defensible (they are certainly not indiscriminate). I accept that your present account and your previous IP incarnation has edited other atricles. But the majority of your editing has been on this topic. The other editor tagged has only made two edits, bot in this topic area. It's not a particularly strong argument against you - and as you say, you have been cleared of any sockpuppetry. You'll just have to take it on the chin and let the strength of your arguments win the day. Any reviewing admin is going to look at those, not your contributions history, to determine whether you are talking sens. I see no cultural bias inherent in placing the tags. Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  16:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify a point above: the tags that I reverted as inappropriate were these, where Liangshan Yi tagged all comments by Australian editors with "This editor is from Australia and may be influenced by cultural bias." I felt it was inappropriate to tag editors based on nationality. Personally, I also don't like SPA tags, and don't see any real role for them outside of AfDs, but they are an established convention and therefore not inappropriate in the same way. - Bilby (talk) 02:03, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I did not tag every suspected SPA, I tagged only the anon, not his Liangshan Yi account and Cowboysforever. Liangshan Yi also deleted the tag from Cowboysforever several times. The tag for Cowboysforever was entirely appropriate as he has made no edits outside the topic and especially so in light of the detailed and lengthy post he made in support of the problematic editors. Wayne (talk) 03:14, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This particular incident followed Liangshan Yi stating that accusations of SPAs and sockpuppets working on the article were false. I feel that as the noticeboard is getting input from uninvolved editors, acknowledgement of SPA input is important considering the substantial history of sock, likely SPA and meatpuppet involvement with the article. I followed up Liangshan Yi's denial with a post listing them which linked to the sockpuppet investigation which named socks, and possible SPAs and meatpuppets. Liangshan Yi then accused me of lying (3X despite being asked not to) for calling him a sock. I posted a reply that I didn't call him a sock and he then posted denials that he was a SPA several times. As he had at this time not disclosed he was the anon I posted the connection and tagged the anon as a SPA. Liangshan Yi removed the tag, I replaced it and explained what it was for. Liangshan Yi then tagged every Australian editor on the page with a tag he made up himself. Bilby rightly reverted Liangshan Yi's tags with the comment "inappropriate tagging of editor comments". Liangshan Yi now removed the SPA tags again, misquoting Bilby that "tagging of other editors' comments is highly inappropriate". I replaced the tags and posted on Liangshan Yi's talk page the justification and invited him to ask an admin if the tag was appropriate or not.


 * Did you not see the very well highlighted instructions at the top of this edit page saying "You must notify any user who is the subject of a discussion"? Never mind, I am about to do so. Your problem is not so much the sock- and meat-puppetry that has historically been a feature of this debate, it is that you have a serious conflict of interest and should not be participating at all if you can not refrain from backing your family's commercial interests. Your own behaviour in this incident has been far from exemplary; despite being warned here not to, you continue to make personal attacks such as this one . I have previous asked Wayne to ignore the attempts at baiting him by those such as P&W (who has for the last few months been disrupting attempts to hammer out a consensus by using it as a base for his attempts to feud with Wayne), but this should not excuse the behaviour of those doing the baiting. Daveosaurus (talk) 23:41, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Generally speaking there is definitely some funny stuff going on at the Ugg boots page for quite some time now, including more than likely some COI, sock and/or meat puppetry in favor of the brand. Just as an example; What a coincidence that 63.171.91.193 who is in favor of user:Phoenix and Winslow views and at some point created an account where they acknowledged and took responsibility for the IP's edits is editing out of the same city a Phoenix and Winslow; And than suddenly another "new" account appeared, Cowboysforever, with same POV and agreement in regards to Phoenix and Winslow. One thing is for sure and that is that user:Liangshan Yi and user:User:Cowboysforever are both SPA's, no doubt about that. What we need here is one ore more admins looking over those Ugg boots and related pages and sooner or later be able to clean out any socking, meat or sockpuppetry, for the subject getting a much needed rest, can be unprotected and become a feasible stable entry. Brand promotion has no place on WP (we have an article on the brand where brand info belongs) and BTW, the German WP already cleaned up the dirt (yet Phoenix and Winslow still got his promotional way at the Spanish wp and who knows where else as they spread it all around... just like a commercial). Time to have that common sense German wp standard be applied here too. So SPA's are complaining here about being called what they are? If anything they just trying to get some attention and distract from the real problem in my opinion. TMCk (talk) 01:54, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I think the real problem here is that intensely partisan editors, some with a cultural bias (AU/NZ) and others with a personal grudge against me from previous encounters, are telling only half the truth. Here's the other half. Yes, apparently at one time both Liangshan Yi and I edited from the Chicago area, but the Checkuser said that sockpuppetry is . There are 12 million people in the metro area, it's spread across parts of four states, and it takes more than five hours to drive from one end to the other. A great deal like the eastern coast of Australia. So does this mean that all editors from the eastern coast of Australia are meatpuppets? With every post, Wayne and other culturally biased AU/NZ editors beat their SPA/sock/meatpuppet drum (which has been clearly defined as derogatory,  "The term meatpuppet is derogatory and should be used with care, in keeping with Wikipedia's civility policy. Because of the processes above, it may be counterproductive to directly accuse someone of being a "meatpuppet", and doing so will often only inflame the dispute"). It is particularly offensive in light of the  ruling, but any person who suggests they've done anything wrong is the one they claim to be making personal attacks. So it appears to me that some of these people are deliberately trying to pick a fight. I will not take the bait. Instead, I ask administrators to step in here. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 04:39, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Just for the record, a CU result of 'unlikely' refers to socks and socks only. and cannot confirm or deny meatpuppetry in any way, shape, or form. Not 'taking sides', just making sure that's understood. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:04, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

NLT issue
The edit summary on this looks much like a legal threat: "Do not put my name back up, or I will take this website to court in a very public diplay". I gave the editor a couple of quick links about dealing with bio's about yourself and the notice that this thread existed. Just might want to keep an eye on it.Niteshift36 (talk) 20:51, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah. That's a legal threat. It's to the site in general rather than to a particular editor, but it's still not allowed.— Ryulong ( 竜龙 ) 21:09, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * At the same time, the content being removed is a WP:BLP lightning rod. It would behoove anyone moving to sanction to verify that we're in compliance before doing so. causa sui (talk) 21:28, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The info is from a legit newspaper, not some blog. No RS issue. And that's why I pointed him to the correct policy, which will show him how to properly handle the matter. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:32, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The material is cited to one reliable source (a local newspaper getting the article from the AP). The gist of what our article says is accurate; however, there are some problems with it being 100% compliant with the cited source. The biggest problem is the cited source does not refer to Stormfront by name. Instead, it refers to an unnamed "white supremacist Internet bulletin board". One of the quotes in our article is not quite right, either.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:39, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I found another source, which enabled me to get past the no-mention-of-Stormfront issue. I've added the source and reworded the material.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:18, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Update. User blocked by ; edit summary revdeleted by me. Salvio  Let's talk about it! 21:46, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The AP apparently mentioned Stormfront though I only see one newspaper in ProQuest mentioning it by name (News in brief. (2005, Aug 06). Philadelphia Inquirer, pp. A.4) and one other without. The Charlotte Observer ran a detailed piece but it's it's not accessible on the newspaper's site without an account (I found a copy with google though)..   I'm sympathetic to the idea of chopping that paragraph out of the article based on very limited notability of both the person and the incident.  It's the opposite of the John Pike situation, where really, nothing Wikipedia could do could make Pike's public image worse than it already is.   In this Hanks case, yeah, the thing is sourced, but it's quite obscure and the guy himself is otherwise barely notable, so we're putting a magnifying glass on him.  I'd tend to treat it as low prominence and not backed by secondary sources whose main subject is Stormwatch, therefore dispensible. 67.117.144.140 (talk) 08:23, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Aside from the valid points you make, I'm curious to know: Is the Hanks redlink claiming that it's false? Or is he merely upset that his name was invoked here? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:12, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Based on what I can tell, it's the latter. (And while WP:UNDUE seems to be the gist of 67's comments, when all there is about a notable person is something negative, well...) - The Bushranger One ping only 10:33, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

User Yworo
I would like for an admin to take a look at a series of edits at The Gingerbread Girl between 02:40, 23 November 2011 and 23:30, 25 November 2011‎. is seeking vengeance against me, apparently because I reverted one his edits yesterday. When I did so, he launched a sockpuppet investigation of me as a banned user (so far no evidence of my sockpuppetry, and there won't be because I am not a banned user). Now he has followed me to The Gingerbread Girl, where I have simply been trying to get citations for some unsourced trivia. After reverting me a couple of times, he finally added citations to other Wikipedia articles. Since Wikipedia can't source itself, in an effort to reach some agreement with Yworo, I left the trivia in the article and his citations to other Wikipedia articles, but added "citation needed" tags. Apparently not feeling that he had inflicted enough vengeance against me, he proceeded to remove the cn tags, even though my edit summary stated that Wikipedia could not source itself. Let me emphasize my point here only partially pertains to what is best for the article. I also would like for someone to have a word with Yworo about his attitude and confrontational style here. If you do a search of complaint boards, you'll see that Yworo has a history of this confrontational style and incivility toward anon IPs and newly registered editors. Earlier today he also repeatedly restored the notice on my talk page about the sockpuppetry investigation, even though I am perfectly entitled to remove it after reading it, especially since no sockpuppetry has been confirmed. I'm not asking for any sanctions against Yworo, but I think if an admin could communicate the importance of his reducing his hostility and increasing his collaborative editing it might help things. Also, Yworo's talk page is protected, so if someone could notify him about this discussion I would appreciate it. Thanks. 174.99.127.20 (talk) 23:47, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * What a bunch of complete rubbish. I provided citations when requested. You removed them. The citations were never to Wikipedia articles. If you didn't misread the changes, then you're simply lying about what I did to stir up trouble. Go ahead, look at the citations. Neither is to Wikipedia. Feel free to withdraw this falsified accusation at any time. Yworo (talk)
 * Ah, you're right about your citations, which I did misread. My apologies. My comments about your hostile and confrontational style still stand, however. 174.99.127.20 (talk) 23:52, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Nothing hostile about it. You reverted valid edits without really reading them. Now that's hostile. Look in the mirror if you want to see the face of the source of hostility here. Yworo (talk) 23:53, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, please stop communicating with me in edit comments. That is considered extremely rude, not to mention you are introducing unnecessary whitespace into articles. If you have an issue with my edits to the article, use the article talk page. I'll be happy to discuss with you there, if you start the discussion. I haven't started the discussion because I have no real problems with your edits, I simply am trying to improve upon them. And I don't respond to requests made in edit comments. Only requests made on talk pages. Why try to communicate using Twitter-like edit comments which aren't always seen due to subsequent edits when we have a whole talk page of whiteboard? Yworo (talk) 23:55, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, your repeatedly restoring comments to my talk page, telling me that I was not allowed to remove them ... that was hostile. And here you go again with even more hostility ... as you well know, your talk page is protected, so an anon or a new editor (and we are allowed to edit, Yworo, despite your efforts to the contrary) cannot leave a message on your talk page. 174.99.127.20 (talk) 00:01, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You mean the very same thing you were doing to my talk page yesterday, and wouldn't stop when asked, so that I had to protect it? The message at the top of my talk page clearly states where to communicate with me about what. It clearly says that for article content issues, I will be expecting communication on the article talk page. Yworo (talk) 00:02, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Why did you repeatedly restore messages to my talk page today, and then lie to me and tell me that I was required not to remove them, even going so far as to quote a policy with a key word omitted (" ... sockpuppetry notices" rather than "confirmed sockpuppetry notices")? And then when you were caught in the lie, place a false warning on my talk page about personal attacks? And if that wasn't enough, follow me to The Gingerbread Girl to try to stir things up even more? 174.99.127.20 (talk) 00:08, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Why did you repeatedly post warnings and restore them on my talk page yesterday, after following me to Richard Reames and reverting a perfectly valid edit? And it used to be clearly stated in the sockpuppet processes that sockpuppet notices should not be removed until the case is closed. It's not my fault that everything changes all the time here. I sincerely believed you had to leave it, based on past reading of the rules. And calling somebody a liar in an edit comment is a personal attack, regardless of what you think. The warning was valid. Yworo (talk) 00:13, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The warnings I posted on your talk page were legitimate. I did not restore any warning after you removed it. But you repeatedly restored a message on my talk page today. Repeatedly. Are you denying that you did this? Are you denying that you then told me I was required to keep the message on my talk page? Are you denying that you then quoted a policy, leaving out a key word, to try to support you false claim? Are you denying that, when I pointed out your deceptiveness, you placed a warning on my talk page about personal attacks? Are you denying that you then, out of the tens of thousands of articles on Wikipedia, you then went to one that I had edited just minutes earlier to revert my edits? And please give us the diff where the policy used to state that all sockpuppetry notices must not be removed; did it really used to be that way, or are you stretching the truth again? 174.99.127.20 (talk) 00:19, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, but I had repeatedly asked you, backed up by admin User:Kim Dent-Brown, not to post on my talk page back in August. You were informed that meant that you could not even post warnings. You continued to post them again yesterday after you had again been repeatedly asked not to. Warnings are not an exception to requests to stay off my talk page. You repeatedly refuse to understand this. Yworo (talk) 00:26, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Give me the diff where Kim Dent-Brown told me that I could never in the future post warnings on your talk page, even when you violated policies, as if you were superior to us mere anon IPs and could not be warned? And don't quote what he said because we already know we can't trust your quotations; give me the diff where I was told to never post warnings on your talk page. And please answer my questions above, Yworo. Do you deny any of those things? And please give us that diff to back up your claim that it used to be policy that all sockpuppetry notices should not be removed. 174.99.127.20 (talk) 00:32, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It is standard policy, being asked not to post on someone's talk page has no exceptions. I'm not going to continue to coddle you, the message was left under another of your damn IP addessses, and I'm not going to search for it, go ask Kim yourself. This is precisely why continuing to edit under multiple IPs violates the rule about avoiding scrutiny, it makes it nearly impossible to find previous warnings and explanations. However, what I say is true, I've repeatedly told you, and you haven't asked or made any inquiries. That's solely your responsibility. You think warnings are an exception, but they never have been. This is your own self-created rule. Yworo (talk) 00:39, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, Kim also posted a copy on my talk page, which is in my archives, here. This was specifically about your continuing to post warnings. You completely ignored it, leading me to request protection for my talk page to end the intentional and concerted harassment. Yworo (talk) 00:44, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

That comment by Kim says nothing about not posting warnings for policy violations. Geez, who the hell do you think you are, Yworo? Are you delusional enough to think that you can get away with policy violations and not receive a warning? Once again, please link the "standard policy" in which it is stated that someone cannot post a warning on a user's talk page simply because that user has demanded that no warnings be posted. And again, give us a link, not a truncated quote. You're not going to search for it because it's "coddling"??? ... No, you're not going to search for it because it doesn't exist and you know it doesn't exist. And, ONCE AGAIN, please answer my questions above and give all of us those diffs to back up what you say. Yworo, it's more than a little obvious here that you will claim almost anything to try to support your hostile and unwelcoming attitude toward anon IPs and new users, but when you're simply asked to give us a diff or a link to a policy, you come up quite short. I think my case has been made very well here, so I don't need to continue to bother any admins trying to sort through this. You have no tolerance for anon IPs and new users, and you're going to take it right up to the line -- and sometimes step over the line -- to try to discourage them from editing. 174.99.127.20 (talk) 00:49, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Point of order
One apparently unresolved issue, which some admins could comment on here, is Yworo's habit of fooling around with other editors' comments that he doesn't like, as evidenced at Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Maybe 174...20 is "stalking" him, and maybe he isn't, I don't know. But Yworo's insistence on messing with 174's comments solves nothing and adds fuel to the flames. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:08, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

The Light Burns
I blocked for 24 hours for multiple reasons, including vandalism, placing incomprehensible screeds on talk pages and edit warring to reinstate them when deleted, and personal attacks. His only action after being blocked is this attack. Anyone want to up the block to indef? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:14, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅. Next step, talk page revoking.  -- Jayron  32  04:18, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Anyone want to notify him, per the page notice. I was going to....  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 04:22, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Your thread, your job. Get on it.  -- Jayron  32  04:24, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This SPI may be...ahem...illuminating. Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all night. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:01, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Beatles songs
and and  and maybe others are starting to post links to a site which has recordings of Beatles songs. That seems to me like a copyright violation. What say y'all? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That sounds very familiar.  . Quack quack. bobrayner (talk) 01:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep. I'm thinking the simplest solution might be to get the URL blacklisted, but I don't know how to request that. Maybe a passing admin could take care of it here? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * They're being smarter this time and using archive.org backlinks. Can't blacklist that, we use that for dead sources in many articles. Tarc (talk) 02:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The fallback step, then, would be to semi the articles. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:04, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I highly recommend to revise this topic and block "Corbina" ranges; it's a long-term story in ruwiki and enwiki;it's a very persistent person... OneLittleMouse (talk) 02:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * He did it again: 176.15.148.251. Is there any abuse e-mail etc. on www.archive.org ? It seems to be useful to write a letter about this collection (but for me with it will be not easy...) OneLittleMouse (talk) 05:01, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * From archive.org's FAQ: "To report an item which violates the Internet Archive's Terms of Use, please send an email with the URL (web address) of the item to info -at- archive.org ". Part of the Terms of Use state, "In particular, you certify that your use of any part of the Archive's Collections will be noncommercial and will be limited to noninfringing or fair use under copyright law." --NellieBly (talk) 05:04, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And again, now with WP:NPA violations... OneLittleMouse (talk) 05:24, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There's a obvious language barrier here, as from what I can gather from the past discussions, this person fully believes he has a legal right to stream Beatles songs from his website. No amount of discussion seems to dissuade that notion. Tarc (talk) 05:44, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Discussions about Beatles, copyright and WP:C also took place in ruwiki (here and other) and, as far as i know, on Creative Commons wiki, but this person seems to be WP:NOTLISTENING. OneLittleMouse (talk) 06:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If everyone's okay with it, I'll e-mail archive.org with the list of files these IPs have been trying to upload. --NellieBly (talk) 05:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC) ETA: IP 2.93 has attempted to refactor other editors' comments on this noticeboard. --NellieBly (talk) 05:58, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A kind soul reverted that; I blocked the IP moments before your post here. I wonder, is there any point in blocking the other IPs mentioned above? Either way, that's for someone else: it's late. Drmies (talk) 06:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, and thanks to the kind soul too. I really don't think this is a language problem but a philosophical difference; it appears that the IP editor doesn't understand how copyright works, or as said otherwise doesn't believe that it matters. I'm going to propose semi-protection for the affected articles given the determination of the editor and the number of ranges he's using. I know nothing about rangeblocks (not sure even what they are), so I'll leave it to someone else to determine if a rangeblock would be useful. --NellieBly (talk) 06:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Have you attempted to contact the ISP to tell them that someone is violating copyright? Or perhaps you could contact Apple Records (or Paul, Ringo, Olivia, Dhani, and Yoko) and tell them someone is violating their copyright?— Ryulong ( 竜龙 ) 06:21, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * My intent is not to police copyright for Apple Corps but to prevent blatant copyright infringements from being linked to on Wikipedia. As a user of archive.org I'm also personally interested in ensuring that their terms of service are adhered to. I'm sorry if I did something wrong; please let me know if there was a better way to handle this. I'm not sure how to contact the user's ISP. --NellieBly (talk) 06:28, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, you're doing just fine. I wouldn't want to police that kind of thing either. A range block (see WP:RANGE) is an option in such cases, but I'm not smart enough to see from the IPs offered here if that would be helpful in relation to the collateral damage. Semi-protection, in the case of determined serial vandals, is often the last resort, at least until the geeks come by and invent some clever filter--but I don't know if that's feasible here. Until then, we're whacking moles. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 06:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And thusly, yet another case for Sign In To Edit is made. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:22, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure, but that's heresy. Also, I've been dealing with problems caused to one or two (depending on your position) IP editors, who for whatever reason choose to stay anonymous. My Man Darax knows a few as well, and I keep running into a very positive contributor who keeps laughing at my half-assed attempts to get them to sign up. So I am firmly of two minds here. I hate having to semi-protect slews of articles, and no one likes range blocks, I think--but all of this is probably for another forum. Also, "thusly" is so old-fashioned that one wonders if you write your comments in longhand and in duplicate and then have a secretary type it in on a computer. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 16:26, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As one of the editors who attempted to show the user why they were wrong, why they couldn't remove other people's comments that were not-supportave of their position (WP:TPG), and why their selective parsing of information volunteers have given them was not helping their case. I was threatened with "violations United Nations Civil Rights" multiple times when they tried to buttress their position. Hasteur (talk) 17:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Heh... How do you like this link from this diff? OneLittleMouse (talk) 05:48, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Just reverted similar changes from . GoingBatty (talk) 02:59, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Reverted another attempted addition from on Ain't She Sweet.  GoingBatty (talk) 19:05, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

New section
Hello. All right and nobody makes illegal actions. I must create the account here? No problem. Simply the range of IPs, which I use, uses big number of people, via remote administration software. I do not want become sockpuppet. Can I be sure, that I am free of possibility to be blocked on such grounds? And else: can I undo last rollbacks, or you can do it self? And this is not violation of copyright, you know this not worse than me. This is: http://www.archive.org/details/opensource_audio. - 176.15.58.23 (talk) 04:08, 23 November 2011 (UTC).
 * Eh, is this about the Beatles? Drmies (talk) 04:12, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's what I wondered. If you (176.15.58.23) are talking about "Beatles songs" thread above, I would move your comment there. Kierzek (talk) 04:15, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It obviously is, and they're still obviously not getting it. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:20, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The articles are semi'd for a reason. Given that, it would be better that he not create a named account. Meanwhile, it looks like the entire Beatles songbook might need to be semi'd. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:24, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I've blocked this IP, but unfortunately Bugs is probably right. I don't know these 'Beatles' that we're speaking of since my god is Kurt Cobain, so I won't be the one doing that. BTW, Bugs, I hate it when you're right. Drmies (talk) 04:44, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Luckily for your psychological health, that doesn't happen excessively. 0:) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Can an admin confirm: how much collateral damage would there be if this guy were rangeblocked? --NellieBly (talk) 04:51, 23 November 2011 (UTC) ETA I've asked for page protection for the articles edited today (that I know of). If other editors are in agreement that semi-protection of the entire songbook is warranted, I'll ask for that. --NellieBly (talk) 05:02, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * So far he's gone after just a few selections from each of the first two British editions of their albums. I think 6 or 7 songs overall. Maybe wait and see? (It's up to you.) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:10, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Good catch. I didn't notice that. Maybe I'll just watchlist a few random songs from each album and wait and see. After all, tomorrow never knows. --NellieBly (talk) 05:17, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's worse than I thought. On a hunch, I checked My Bonnie, and there's another IP sock that I had to revert. It seems like he does a handful and then switches to another IP. You might have to walk through the entire List of The Beatles songs to semi all of them. Ugh. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:19, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

<--I blocked the socks and semi-protected a handful of articles (Ged did a bunch of them already). Next time you're right, Bugs, report on it after I went to bed please. Drmies (talk) 05:34, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * How about I just call you at home and find out if you're still awake? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:54, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I just found more: Anna (Go to Him), Baby It's You, Please Please Me (song), and Boys (The Shirelles song) - that makes all the songs on the Please Please Me album. I'll request semi for these, then time for bed for me. --NellieBly (talk) 05:37, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems part of this list already blocked on Archive (thanks), but not all. OneLittleMouse (talk) 05:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Excellent. That list covers a bunch of songs from, and prior to, their first 3 or 4 UK albums. It's worth pointing out that their recordings can be found on youtube also. And likewise probably copyright violations. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:56, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this list. I'm off to bed but will tackle it from both sides tomorrow. Thanks again. --NellieBly (talk) 05:52, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What a freakin' nuisance. Thank you all for your efforts. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:54, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Have we tried telling him in Russian that he is not allowed to post these? Because we cannot adequately blacklist archive.org because it has actual utility on the project.— Ryulong ( 竜龙 ) 07:38, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * He's at it again, this time as . More song-article semi-protections are needed. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:39, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I've posted an English and (Google) Russian message to him that he is breaking our rules, just to assume good faith in that he has no idea what the hell he is doing wrong.— Ryulong ( 竜龙 ) 07:44, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, it may be useful to set up an edit filter that prevents him from making his particular edit rather than blacklisting anything else.— Ryulong ( 竜龙 ) 07:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * He's an IP-hopper, so he probably won't see your good message. Meanwhile, the edit filter might work. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * He hasn't been blocked on this one yet.— Ryulong ( 竜龙 ) 07:51, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Using yet another IP, he posted some gibberish on my talk page and another editor's. I would semi-protect those Beatles song pages myself, but I lack the authority to do so. :( ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:54, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Possibly related but I could be wrong

 * Note for patrolling Admin, the above-mentioned IP has been quacking very loudly on both User talk:Baseball Bugs and User talk:Doc9871, can someone please put an end to his short miserable stint here... or better yet, CU to determine who the determined one actually is? -- <i style="font-family:Rage Italic; font-size:large; color:green;">Dave</i> ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 08:45, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Most likely the Beatles guy discussed a few sections above. He's either incredibly dense or a total troll. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 08:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Smells like it. 93 has been "effectively indef'd" (1 year) per the NLT policy (and the please-don't-indef-IPs thingy): his English is atrocious (maybe he's running it through Google Translate) but the meaning of this is pretty clear. (And, to be honest, I'm leaning more and more torwards "total troll".) - The Bushranger One ping only 08:57, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, he's pretty good with the gibberish: "Why do you fight with the celebration of the highest art in this sad world?" Somewhere in there, there's an English sentence trying to find its way out. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:02, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Experience indicates that blocking him won't work, as he's a constant IP-hopper... from Russia, yet. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:05, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Bugs, you forgot to add... "with Love". -- <i style="font-family:Rage Italic; font-size:large; color:green;">Dave</i> ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 09:08, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That reference occurred to me, but it's late at night and I couldn't come up with a snappy parody. How about, "All you need is from Russia with love"? (nyet) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:12, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * True, but the best we can do is Whack-A-Mole...bring your mallets! I'm surprised there's no "Wikipe-tan with mallet" image. - The Bushranger One ping only 09:09, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, that should be silver hammers... umrguy  42  15:58, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * ...Effectively and per NLT policy, 93 just screwed himself inside out... poor attorneys, they'd be out of job pretty soon if this carries on. -- <i style="font-family:Rage Italic; font-size:large; color:green;">Dave</i> ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 09:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * ...Effectively and per NLT policy, 93 just screwed himself inside out... poor attorneys, they'd be out of job pretty soon if this carries on. -- <i style="font-family:Rage Italic; font-size:large; color:green;">Dave</i> ♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫® 09:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

His best line has to be the Yoda-style "Play in war of edits nobody will". --Blackmane (talk) 17:07, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In Soviet Russia, IP blocks you! Unfortunately the tool for examining contributions for a range of IPS located at http://toolserver.org/~soxred93/rangecontribs/ is down, and has been for a while. I have contacted User:X! but so far no joy. Are there any other similar tools? --Dianna (talk) 20:03, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep - CheckUser. I've blocked 95.29.0.0/16 for a week and 2.93.89.0/24 for a fortnight. It's a spanner in the works but given the other IPs used it won't stop him completely. An edit filter is by far the best option. Patrolling admins - drop me a note on my talk page to investigate any further proposed range blocks, or to simply let me know of another IP. WilliamH (talk) 21:40, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * An edit filter is now in effect. The rangeblocks can still be left in place though. WilliamH (talk) 21:49, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Another variation?
Could someone please look at the contributions of to see if this is another variation of the same issue? I don't have the appropriate software to play the .ogg files. Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 18:49, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * For sure it's the same guy, and he needs to be blocked and his junk removed. Minor correction to your link. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Blocked indefinitely. WilliamH (talk) 23:43, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess you could say we sunk his junk? - The Bushranger One ping only 02:15, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd like to say we've sunk his fleet. It could be worth keeping an eye on Beatles' articles, but I don't see any need for them to be protected. WilliamH (talk) 02:54, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A satisfactory outcome. (Just as long as you don't sink my battleship!) - The Bushranger One ping only 03:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll keep the articles in question watchlisted for a while just in case he comes back in another way. We may have "sunk" his yellow submarine yesterday, but tomorrow never knows. --NellieBly (talk) 01:32, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * - new version of the same person? OneLittleMouse (talk) 05:12, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * NellieBly - can't be a bad idea, good stuff. OneLittleMouse - blocked it, cheers. WilliamH (talk) 05:41, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I've asked for semi-protection for Rubber Soul and the articles for the songs on it. Given this editor's history, he'll just keep trying again and again until we semi-protect, then he'll go to another album. I guess I should check the rest of the albums... --NellieBly (talk) 06:23, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Given that this chap/chapette has started using named accounts to spread their copyvio slime, I've opened a SPI case. - The Bushranger One ping only 10:44, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Jackrobertos1996
Longterm user, adding unsourced content and altering demographics without supporting references. Editing pattern is similar to that of an IP just blocked for a year. I'm requesting someone review these edits, including changes to census numbers that have heretofore gone unchecked, to confirm whether they constitute vandalism and ought to be overturned. Thank you, 99.12.242.97 (talk) 01:55, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It appears as though you, 99.12.242.97, made no good-faith attempt to discuss this matter with Jackrobertos1996. You left them a message on their talk page, and without waiting for any response, immediately reported them here.  That's hardly an example of best-practice dispute resolution.  The first thing you should do, before getting admins involved, is to make an attempt to discuss the matter with said user, and that means leaving a message on their user talk page and waiting a reasonable amount of time for them to respond.  Perhaps there is a good explanation, but you should at least do the due dilligence of dealing with other users as people and treating them with the respect of trying to have a personal conversation with them before "reporting them to the cops".  -- Jayron  32  02:20, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If you think it appropriate please revert this report, and I will revert my notice at their talk page. My assumption was that this looked a lot like a puppet of the blocked account. And I don't think that asking for more eyes on numerous unsourced edits is an unreasonable 'report to the cops'. The intent here was to exercise due diligence in requesting other opinions before going ahead and reverting edits en masse, with the possibility that I could be wrong. So, I was perhaps quick to seek help, and received a lecture. Thank you. 99.12.242.97 (talk) 02:30, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No, you did not receive a lecture, you were reminded of assuming good faith and fixing potential problems between people one-on-one where needed. This is a collegial project, and most interactions don't need the high-handed force of an admin.  If you had suspected WP:SOCK, it's odd you never mentioned it from the beginning :-) ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 12:28, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think my intent was terribly opaque, either in the initial report or here, all of which indicated my concern that the accounts were related. It appears that the direction this has taken regards my perceived lack of civility, but as yet nobody has contradicted the premise of my report. I'm requesting someone review these edits, including changes to census numbers that have heretofore gone unchecked, to confirm whether they constitute vandalism and ought to be overturned doesn't call for "high-handed force", nor did I presume that a discussion here required such. Again: if this is viewed as an inappropriate thread we can delete it; if I'm wrong in my assumption I'll gladly apologize to the account in question. If, however, there's a basis to my concern then we are dealing with someone using multiple accounts to, at least in part, add erroneous information. Nobody has chosen to offer any feedback about that thus far. 99.12.242.97 (talk) 13:20, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Although we won't delete the thread - we can close it if you wish. Questions regarding the quality/appropriateness of edits belong on the talkpage of the article, raising a WP:30 request, or WP:RFC.  Admins here cannot handle content disputes in an article, unless immediate and obvious damage is being done to the project.  The people who watch the article(s) in question are the best people to judge the content edits themselves, not those of us who might have never edited the topic.  We can't typically investigate general "look at these edits" because we don't know what to compare them to. ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 13:27, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The examples include numerous articles, for instance: and, ;  and  (judging by US census sources, some few of these numbers were correct, most were invented); the edit histories taken in total, as offered at the top of this thread, evidence a pattern of similar or identical edits to the same articles, for which the IP was blocked for a year. Generally when an IP is persistently blocked for such edits, suspected related accounts invite scrutiny. My interpretation is that a months long series of unsourced edits, at least some of which include a continuing addition of erroneous information, is probably not constructive. Regardless, from the outset I've asked for an opinion as to whether these accounts may be related, and if there remain erroneous edits as yet uncorrected. 99.12.242.97 (talk) 13:51, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I confess that by now I've lost my tooth for this, and whether I'm correct or not is of little interest to me; I've explained my intent, and don't need to pursue the matter. Feel free to close the discussion. 99.12.242.97 (talk) 14:19, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Huge breach of just about every rule in the book by new user
Howdy. Article UKIP has been bombaded by edits and reverts all of POV and about 20 times over the 3rr rule by a new user user:Xijky I don't even know where to start it's so bad. I suggest you just take a look for yourselves. May I request an instant freeze on all edits and someone with rollback rights to reverse all edits to back before he started editing. He was warned multiple times that what he was doing was unacceptable. I can't revert them manually as it would take all day. One other user has started manually but he's breaking the rules as well. Thanks in advance. Alexandre8 (talk) 19:31, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * P.S none of his new material was discussed on talk page. Alexandre8 (talk) 19:37, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I've given him a stern warning not to editwar, noting that he will be blocked if he continues. If he has broken other rules please supply diffs so that I can see what to warn him against doing.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I have to go out now, but I shall assume good faith and not post every example of unsourced POV that he has uploaded and let him learn from your warning. If he breaks the rules in the future I'll let you know. Thanks for your time Maunus. Alexandre8 (talk) 20:04, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Well he seems to want to describe UK Independence Party as Islamophobic and racist. This is an interesting diff inconsistent with a newbie editor that suggests it may be a returning sock. I appreciate that he's putting cn on his weasel words at the same time as he adds them, though. (Irony) There is some WP:BATTLEGROUNDing on the talk page here. Not the worst editor ever but also not the best. If it really is a new editor and not a returning banned user, it would seem (s)he could use some counseling. causa sui (talk) 21:22, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Pet peeve. It's one thing to CN-tag existing material in an article if you make a call that it shouldn't simply be removed as unsourced, but to add unsourced material with a CN tag is, in my view, absurd on its face.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:20, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * This is a really extreme reaction to my attempt to correct pro-UKIP bias in the article. I haven't been edit warring, just being bold, and adding material. When it was reverted, I didn't add it in the same way, but rewrote it so that it might please people better, and tried to communicate with other editors on the talk page. Most of my edits were adding cited material with reliable sources (Oxford University Press publications etc). I added the citation needed tag, because it needs support from a cite, but I couldn't find one. Please stop templating me on my talk page, and discuss the specific issues at the UKIP talk page. Edit warring is defined as far as I can see as hopping backwards and forwards between two revisions, not changing an article to make it better in response to criticism. --Xijky (talk) 22:31, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You need to read WP:EW and the section WP:3RR within it. If you can't "support" for something, don't add it until you can.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:35, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Bbb23. I would add that WP:BRD would be a good page for you to look at. When you are reverted, you need to go to the talk page right away, not make cosmetic changes to your edits and submit them again. That is edit warring. causa sui (talk) 23:31, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I did go to the talk page "straight away" but there was no interest in discussing matters with me, so I simply re-factored my version to one which was mutually acceptable. --Xijky (talk) 23:34, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * For what it is worth I agree it seems that there is a pro UKIP slant to the article, and it also seems that some of the regular contributors to the article do lean towards advocacy. Correcting bias with unsourced statements biased in the opposite direction is of course no solution to this problem.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:42, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Xijky You've just been kindly advised by about 4 or 5 different editors here and here on the board, that your edits are not being done in the right way and then you go and do this 9 edits. You've completely gone and revamped parts of the article after you were told to consent to changes of content. I can't keep reverting all this myself as ill just fuel the flames and break the rules as well. Alexandre8 (talk) 01:03, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with the above editor, as I had just gone on the UKIP page and I was quite surprised by the amount of editing that Xijky had been putting in, I then followed a link to this noticeboard and found out that he had been warned not to do it, yet he has clearly persisted in edit warring and is ignoring what everyone else has just told him on this very page!! Daily Blue91 (talk) 01:25, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Getting a warning for editing on a contentious topic is not in itself a sign of very much, though. --FormerIP (talk) 02:23, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have made a section on the talk page where I've amassed the content which he had sources for and opened a discussion so that the user can get his voice across without edit warring. I hope this will resolve the problem. Alexandre8 (talk) 02:16, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well done.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:21, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Didn't reallu work as I'd hoped. I woke up to this large removal of material with reason "not necessary". and the insistence to push Islamophobic in ideologies box with poor source. Alexandre8 (talk) 11:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It didn't work, because you don't like the fact that there are reliable sources which state that UKIP is racist, xenophobic and anti-Islam. Data on parish council seats seems a bit excessive for a national political party - I was again, just being bold. --Xijky (talk) 15:52, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * YOu removed a large amount of content without consensus. That is not allowed. and additionally You are POV pushing the above. Alexandre8 (talk) 17:33, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Can someone help on the UKIP page please, its sort of being overun with vandalism and Xijky has changed the UKIP logo into a swastika!! Daily Blue91 (talk) 19:51, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Help with closing a discussion
Hi. There is a discussion at Talk:Comparison_of_orbital_launch_systems. It has had no recent activity, and the discussion started last summer. As far as I can tell, no consensus was ever reached on the proposal. However, since I made a comment in that discussion I'm not sure that it is wiki-appropriate for me to attempt to close the discussion. '''Would someone who is not involved please take a look as see if it might be okay to close the discussion now? Or should it just be left open and never formally closed? Or something else entirely?''' Thanks. N2e (talk) 18:24, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

user:Unlimitedtruths
The edits by demonstrated that their sole purpose on Wikipedia is to promote  and his books (note: article on the subject has been salted due to possible socking and disruption where the article was repeatedly recreated).

This single purpose behavior can be seen by viewing the repeated rejections of the submittal at, as well as the edit histories at , and.

After having external links removed from 2 Unlimited as linkspam (links to www.nightshad.net/books.html ), the user is now about a defunct fanclub that existed between 1993 and 1996 of which Michael Crook was president, and is advertising a non-notable book by Michael Crook that was created about the group.

Note also that the behavior is similar to the SPA behavior of and the suspected socks from that account. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:47, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: On my talk page, the editor has also engaged in personal attacks, as well as showing a complete lack of respect for following site policies and making threats to sockpuppet. . --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 01:06, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


 * So, let's see...promotional editing, Godwinian personal attacks, threats to sock, and their username pretty much sets out an agenda, to boot...I think this adds up to someone who's WP:NOTHERE. And loudly quacking for block evasion to boot. Indef'd. - The Bushranger One ping only 01:25, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

ArbCom voting open.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:SecurePoll/vote/240  Flutter shy  !xmcuvg2MH 00:01, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

The return of Michael Paul Heart
Main account (most often used): Michael Paul Heart (talkcontribsdeleted contribsnuke contribs[ logs][ edit filter log]block user[ block log]) Old socks: Tillie Jean (talkcontribsdeleted contribsnuke contribs[ logs][ edit filter log]block user[ block log]) BenjaminDavidAharonDvi (talkcontribsdeleted contribsnuke contribs[ logs][ edit filter log]block user[ block log]) DrakeProf (talkcontribsdeleted contribsnuke contribs[ logs][ edit filter log]block user[ block log]) Brian D. White (talkcontribsdeleted contribsnuke contribs[ logs][ edit filter log]block user[ block log]) DrakeProf (talkcontribsdeleted contribsnuke contribs[ logs][ edit filter log]block user[ block log]) 71.214.251.150 (talkcontribsdeleted contribs[ filter log]  WHOISRDNStrace RBLshttpblock user[ block log])__NOINDEX__ Latest sock: LittleOldManRetired (talkcontribsdeleted contribsnuke contribs[ logs][ edit filter log]block user[ block log])

Previous AN/I threads (both initiated by MPH socks) Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive691 Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive693

I don't think I've ever seen a sockpuppeteer who does a worse job of covering his tracks or seems to be more delusional about believing that he's fooling people than Michael Paul Heart. He basically suffers from two rather unusual obsessions. The first expressed itself by turning tachash into this bizarre morass of original research, novel synthesis and personal opinion. The second was an intense need to edit a picture caption of the Ark of the Covenant to say that the picture was wrong, wrong, wrong because the rings that the staves go through should be located at the feet of the ark, not higher on the sides (I kid you not). His inability to convince anyone that he was improving the article resulted in this jeremiad of a parting message. Of course his decision to "walk out of hell" didn't stop him from creating half-a-dozen socks to continue arguing for his POV and initiate specious threads on AN/I attacking other editors for cleaning up the messes he left.

That looked as if it had all died down, but MPH actually kept at least one sock in reserve. While MPH was making accusations with his other socks, this account (created on May 4th, before had started an AN/I thread) was innocuously editing a few unrelated articles until Oct. 9 when he went seriously to work on Tachash. To see the result, take a look at the article's history from then to today. And just to make sure no one could possibly miss who was doing this, he also did this (reverted by me, restored by him) at Ark of the Covenant, letting us all know that those rings should be in the feet, the feet, the feet, feet, FEET of the ark. I guess he thinks he can convince the community that there are actually two people alive nutty enough to share his obsessions. I have tried and I cannot make myself believe it.

Today reverted his um, work at Tachash, and he, naturally, reverted back So here's what I think should be done.

Option one - Do an SPI, find any other undiscovered socks he may still have, block them all and ban him from Wikipedia. He's never been anything but trouble to the project and he's never going to be. No amount of lying or being caught at it seems to be enough for this guy. He's variously claimed to be a Catholic, a religious Jew, a college Professor and I don't know what else. I realize his other accounts are probably stale, but we have the IP he was using and it should be easy to check. (I don't think this is outing, he basically outed himself by sockpuppeting so obviously).

Option two - Same SPI, same block of his accounts, but leave one live -, then topic ban him from Tachash, Ark of the Covenant and anything else having to do with the Bible. Personally, I think option one is a lot more justified, but I mention this just in case anyone wants to give him an eighth chance to edit honestly. Since he's never done anything but sockpuppet and lie to the community non-stop, I don't think he deserves it, but I present it as an option. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 06:15, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Support community ban. This kind of disruption has to be prevented, and I would be concerned that an editor known for original research, falsifications, and extreme fringe beliefs will take those tendencies to other topics if banned from editing one specific topic. A formal, clearly spelled-out community ban is useful to other editors (especially non-admins); I use WP:LOBU often enough, and I'm sure other editors do as well. (This is why I'm very much against letting a "de facto ban" be the status quo.) --NellieBly (talk) 07:15, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: editor has just created article The Tachash (animal). --NellieBly (talk) 07:22, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support community ban - second chances are good, third chances even, but there comes a point where the foot must be put down. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:29, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support community ban, and would suggest SPI/checkuser to look for sleepers (it wouldn't be fishing, as we do have a genuine new sock and he has used sleepers before) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:08, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support community ban. This is a troubled individual.  We can probably add User:Hermitstudy to the above list.  As Michael Paul Heart, this editor would occasionally let "other people" edit from his computer, like his mother, and his scary Marine friend. Tendentious to be sure. Although MPH's version of Tachash here, at 211900 Kb, is a work of art i.m.o. (not an encyclopedia article, but a work of art no less)  The Interior  (Talk) 15:03, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's what really makes this kind of sad - on having a skim read of that version, it looks like a very impressive piece of work that may well deserve to be published somewhere (probably somewhere where there can be proper peer review), but it's absolutely not appropriate for an encyclopedia article -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support a community ban, though grudgingly, I guess. This editor was the bane of my existence for a while, and when Steven J. and others came to aid on Tachash it was a great relief. I don't like topic bans or community bans, but I think we have no choice here: the level of delusion (I borrow the term from the nominator of this thread) is so high that, in my opinion, no amount of coaching, mentoring, or supervising can prevent further disruption. Sock puppeteering in a basically good-faith but obsessed editor is a terrible thing--just look at their comment on my talk page, "only the nonsense OR submitted or inflicted by Hermitstudy and Michael Paul Heart was not included." Having to call some of your own hard work "nonsense" just so you can keep other parts of it, that's not good: a ban is probably the best thing for Wikipedia and for the editor. Drmies (talk) 15:27, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Request - Could someone do whatever is necessary to initiate checkuser proceedings and flush any possible sleepers? I'm sorry, but I'm just not familiar with the formal proceedings on how to do that. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 21:57, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * CheckUser comment: There is nothing to report concerning LittleOldManRetired, and all the previous socks are . WilliamH (talk) 04:26, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Possible legal threat by IP
I had warned this IP for this, which was followed shortly by this. Jasper Deng (talk) 05:23, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Blocked. -- Jayron  32  05:29, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Indef? For an IP? (Or is that just the template you used?) Lady  of  Shalott  05:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Answering my own question: it's a 6-month block. Lady  of  Shalott  05:32, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the template says "indefinite". I only blocked for 6 months, but the person behind the IP is considered to be under an indefinite block for NLT issues.  This is how I usually handle NLT blocks of IPs:  I cannot block the IP forever, but the person cannot return to Wikipedia under the cloud of a legal threat, so he/she is to stay away indefinitely, or at least until the threat is redacted.  Its a bit of a compromise I do to jive NLT policy with blocking policy.  -- Jayron  32  05:35, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Talk page abuse
And now we have this.Jasper Deng (talk) 05:33, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Talk page revoked. –MuZemike 18:17, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

IP is static
Is the picture changed from the fact that this IP is static?Jasper Deng (talk) 05:47, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There's static, and there's static. We don't know that the exact same person will be using this IP at any point in the future, even technically "static" IP addresses don't necessarilty sit on the same computer for eternity.  The goal is to stop disruptions now.  If problems fire up in 6 months, then in 6 months we can block again.  It ain't no thing... -- Jayron  32  05:50, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I find it odd that this IP is in the UK and is complaining about American subjects being deleted.— Ryulong ( 竜龙 ) 06:24, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's an expatriate. Ironic, no? Doc   talk  06:26, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Obvious troll is obvious (speaking of the IP). Let's WP:DENY.Jasper Deng (talk) 06:27, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Funny thing is, how he's so sure there were no prods when he can't see the deleted content. Protip: they were. Thank you, Mr. Troll, and enjoy your WP:BOOMERANG. - The Bushranger One ping only 07:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Static? Isn't it an Openzone address? In which case I think it quite likely that another person will use it sooner or later... (Although, looking at the registrant details, there's a slim chance it might just be somebody from Adastral Park messing about... no? BT is a rather bureaucratic beast; "NO U LOL INTERNET" is rather uncharacteristic) bobrayner (talk) 13:57, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Long-term vandalism on limited article topics from dynamic IP /15 block
Hello, I am quite concerned about the contribution for IP addresses which I believe to belong (at the time assigned) to the same user. I begun to notice similar disruptive contributions from similar IPs on articles around the BBC TV series Merlin, which all belong to the same block 110.32.0.0/15. They mostly change episode titles, add nonsense or information from other pages, like Narnia etc. Because of the similar style they drew my attention, first I tried to revert and issue warnings, but they seem to be ignored like warning from other users, as there came edit after warnings. I requested a protection for Merlin (series 4), and other articles were more targeted. Now I investigated into the article histories and user contributions. Which lead to a long list of ongoing vandalism. I found that some other articles were vandalized in the very same manner earlier, so I added them too.

Alice Troughton and Michelle Ryan are involved with the Merlin series, therefore became a target.

I really hope I can reach someone here, who can do something about that. Thank you so much in advance. Ochristi (talk) 15:20, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Holy shit, wow! Yeah, any admins active on the board today wanna take this one? Quinn <sup style="color:black;">&#10025; STARRY NIGHT  16:23, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

As far as the range is concerned, there would be way too much collateral damage for a rangeblock. The vast majority of the IP edits from the range are legitimate. (Well, half of it; the other half has too much data in it for the checkuser tool to easily analyze.) --jpgordon:==( o ) 16:43, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

IP making dubious edits, refusing to cite sources (unarchived)
constantly adds unsourced information to various BLPs and other articles, mostly residences and birthplaces. Some edits are obviously dubious (made-up location on caption, fake citation), a couple of times they've changed what they're adding within a minute, which looks to me like they're making it up as they go along. Has ignored multiple requests and warnings to cite sources. I'm sure it's one person using this IP throughout, and the same person has been making edits like this from similar IPs for months now (same false citation: ), also think it's the same IP editor I raised here. January ( talk ) 20:44, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I've unarchived this as there were no comments last time and it's continuing. Since then the IP has added this which I have previously removed twice as unsourced, and this which I think is dubious (I attempted to source it and couldn't find anything). January  ( talk ) 16:38, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I've seen this phenomenon with other IPs in other ranges. It's very difficult to combat as it generally comes from multiple IPs (perhaps the same person) and hits a broad spectrum of articles. In addition, the false information edits are often mixed in with some constructive edits. Diabolical. Short of range blocks, I don't know what can be done. It essentially attacks a vulnerability in the Wikipedia editing structure.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:58, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Since the single IP at has over 120 edits, I've blocked it for a month for disruptive editing. If he jumps to a new IP we'll just have to keep watching. EdJohnston (talk) 17:09, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Phoenix and Winslow
Despite frequent requests to stop such behaviour, Phoenix and Winslow has been continually referring to and misrepresenting a past dispute with me in another article as a means to discredit not only my comments but those of other editors who support me in the unrelated Ugg boots article and the current noticeboard discussion regarding that article.


 * WLRoss
 * Phoenix and Winslow
 * Bilby
 * Daveosaurus

Several of the edits in question, , , , ,  and

The most recent instance was on an admins Talk page yesterday where it was particularly inappropriate.

Bilby took the matter to the Wikiquette assistance board  on October 11, where Phoenix and Winslow was advised to strike out the comments and refrain from further mention of the previous dispute. Phoenix and Winslow did not post in reply but a SPA anon who always supports Phoenix and Winslow’s edits did “in his voice” and not only repeated the accusations but made further accusations that had previously been discredited on another board. Phoenix and Winslow ignored this request to stop the behaviour and continued bringing up the dispute.

I have posted asking Phoenix and Winslow to refrain from bringing up the past dispute to discredit me here and here.

Daveosaurus has posted asking Phoenix and Winslow to refrain from making these personal attacks here. On Phoenix and Winslow’s  Talk page. And again here.

I'm not sure if this is the correct board but I would be grateful for any assistance to resolve this. Wayne (talk) 17:31, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

UK Independence Party
Could we have some admin eyes over on above article new user repeating the edit war of a recently blocked editor and don't know how to fix the image which has now been changed to a nazi flag Mo ainm  ~Talk  19:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * ...yeaaahhh...no agenda that's obvious there... (also, I've notified them, since this is clearly the user in question)- The Bushranger One ping only 19:57, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Any commons admins around want to block commons:user:Xijky? -- zzuuzz (talk) 20:01, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Also changed the photo of Nigel Farage to Hitler. *sigh* -- ‖ Ebyabe  talk -  Inspector General  ‖ 20:10, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And now Xijky is re-blocked here and blocked on commons. That's the Nazi flag sorted. Back to any other issues... -- zzuuzz (talk) 20:44, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi I just corrected information on the page, I never changed any pictures. To point out I am a paid up member of the civic nationalist and libertarian party called Ukip, not the right wing one in the article, I attempted to rectify the article and put correct descriptions in and they have been blocked and now I am being threatened with being blocked.

I would think that Wiki being an encyclopaedia for information about many subjects, Wiki would at least want to have the correct representation of a subject rather than one written by many Non Ukip supporters. Conflict of interest? Not from my corner.

Sources I can cite are the website, the manifesto and policies which show the party is a Libertarian, civic nationalistic, and centralist party. (Englandstruth (talk) 20:34, 26 November 2011 (UTC))
 * What do third party RS say?Slatersteven (talk) 20:40, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * We're having a lot of problems with political parties at the moment - the UKIP article is a disaster zone because of people trying to push their own POV. Respect Party is also in trouble, massive edit wars going on too. More editors/watchers would be handy doktorb wordsdeeds 20:58, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I can understand that, but people are welcome to verify me from my FB page it is open so not in breach of any data laws: https://www.facebook.com/groups/133900563380335/ That is a ukip page I run promoting ukip and the Ukip Blog site.

My POV may be bias towards the party, but in my defence you would not ask a mechanic about a plumbing article, Meaning who better to post about Ukip than either a supporter or member of the party.

Cheers for your comments. (Englandstruth (talk) 21:41, 26 November 2011 (UTC))
 * That's funny. Tell us another one. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Bugs, let's play horse. I'll play the front...you just be yourself. Leaky  Caldron  21:48, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Neigh. So, are you going to cop the same attitude at Bushranger? Or do you only attack us peons? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:34, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Some of you seem to have a bad attitude and seem to think your actions or comments are clever, well they are not. Why should it be wrong for a member of the party to edit, putting correct information from the website is not a crime? I chose my name because I am English and prefer the truth, not lies. I have noticed that the page has returned back to its previous state of misrepresentation of the party, while you are using a copyrighted logo. I feel that this is wrong as parties like the right wing English Democrats get to edit their page with obvious abandon. Why have some of the editors have it in for Ukip and a placing biased information on the article? Answer: They are anti Ukip. To allow this misrepresentation to carry on is just showing wiki is not looking for real articles or for factual articles, this either to appease the establishment parties in the Uk or it is to appease the egos of some on here.
 * If you are affiliated with the party, it'd be a very good idea for you not to edit its article. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:12, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As noted farther down the page, any user with "truth" in its name is usually destined for "consequences". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

You are either going to be a representative of the facts or not, if it is the latter then you become a joke.(Englandstruth (talk) 09:33, 27 November 2011 (UTC))


 * It doesn't mater whose party they are, if they're editing a topic they are associated with, they need to either be netural or they need to cease and desist - and that applies to everybody, you, them, everyone. (And that "copyrighted logo" can be used under WP:FAIRUSE.) - The Bushranger One ping only 10:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The UKIP is right-wing, and that's what reliable sources already cited in the article testify to. GiantSnowman 18:48, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

What reliable sources? Oh the two Labour professors and the Liberal democrat one, yeah they are credible sources. Really, your attitude. I am a member and I am not right wing. I am an Ex Labour voter. The Bushranger, the Logo may be allowed to be used under fair use rules, but false representation of the party while using it is not. And by copying a pasting from Website and rectifying untruths is not being neutral then, Shall I post up lies like who ever is calling the party a right wing populist party? Libertarianism and civic nationalism are not right wing, if you think they are, that makes you very left wing.

(Englandstruth (talk) 20:18, 27 November 2011 (UTC))
 * Reliable secondary sources classify the party as right-wing. The party itself says it is not, perhaps, but secondary sources trump primary sources for statements such as that. And fair use can either be used or it cannot; the content of the article is irrelevant to whether or not fair use is valid. That said, if there is cut-and-paste as you claim, that is a violation of copyright. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:34, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Uninvolved admin required
To close an RFC at occupy wall street The Last Angry Man (talk) 20:22, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Deletions by involved editor under claim of "close paraphrases"; Mkativerata
A colleague, Mkativerata, who is an involved administrator in respect of the Israel-Palestinian conflict as defined by WP:ARBPIA, has today deleted variations of 2 sentences in an ARBPIA bio of Ilan Berman (3 times in half an hour). Claiming that they are "close paraphrases". The 2 sentences were edited three times to seek to address his claims, and additional refs added.

Whether or not he may have been correct initially, certainly by his most recent deletion IMHO there was no merit to his claim. I'm concerned with the aggressiveness of his deletions, without talkpage discussion, especially given the ARBPIA aspect of this. I've myself opened up discussion of the issue on the article's talkpage, but not received any response there.

Perhaps an admin can keep an eye on this matter? I'm concerned that it is spiraling. I'm not asking for any other action as to Mkat. Full disclosure: In the past I've communicated concern to this editor about his behavior, and have felt that he responded aggressively and sought to exact retribution inappropriately for my having having voiced my view, so I am hoping that this is not a continuation of that, and that I will not suffer from retribution from him. Many thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:59, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Epeefleche is the subject of a long-running CCI that has uncovered a long history of copyright violations. I'm working through the CCI and I'm not going to be distracted by obstructionism. Working on a CCI requires the deletion of substantive amounts of a contributor's work. And I'm not going to be bullied out of it. And nor am I going to let the fact that I have declared myself "not uninvolved" in respect of ARBPIA stop me from removing copyright violations, being a non-POV matter. CCI needs whatever help it can get. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:06, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * My noting that you are "an involved administrator in respect of the Israel-Palestinian conflict" as defined by WP:ARBPIA is simply a reflection of what you have yourself indicated. Given the sensitivities in that area, and your being an involved editor, when you delete material such as the above under the claim that it is a copyright violation, and the claim appears baseless, that raises a concern that your "involvement" is an issue.


 * I agree of course that copyright violations should be addressed. Your most recent deletion, certainly, was nothing of the sort.  You also failed to discuss the matter on the talkpage, despite making 3 deletions in half an hour.  When unwarranted deletions are made by  involved editors, that can perhaps be a problem.  Involved editors can always alert other editors when they believe there is a problem, especially if it is not a clear-cut matter--I find it hard to believe that you felt that your last deletion, for example, was a clear-cut copyright violation.  I'm not asking that action be taken against you. I'm simply asking for more admin eyes, as I feel you reacted with aggressive retribution in the past.  Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:23, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * BTW, in the Mkat matter now before ARBCOM, there are assertions of failure to communicate properly as well. As here, I personally don't believe that the asserted failure warrants sanctions.  But perhaps it reflects a pattern.  I do believe that communication is called for by wp:admin, and is important, in instances such as this one.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

If it's possibly a copyright violation, it should be removed immediately pending peer review. There is no suggestion being made that Mkati is using copyright policy to game the system, which would be a problem. This would also be a problem if Mkati were ignoring some discussion that had already taken place, but the petitioner doesn't suggest that is happening. According to the complaint itself there is nothing here requiring administrative action. causa sui (talk) 21:28, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Involved editors can of course delete blatant vandalism. And I would extend that to blatant copyright violations.  Mkat's most recent deletion was certainly nothing of the sort, however -- not a copyvio at all, and certainly not a blatant copyvio.


 * As with involved editors in wp:admin, by analogy, "administrators may have, or may be seen as having, a conflict of interest in disputes they have been a party to or have strong feelings about. Involvement is generally construed very broadly by the community, to include current or past conflicts with an editor ... and disputes on topics". As WP:ADMIN indicates, it is best practice in cases where an administrator may be seen to be involved to pass the matter to another administrator via the relevant noticeboards.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:38, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * This is a stretch. Involvement is construed broadly so that we can discourage administrators from gaming the system to enforce their own positions in content disputes. According to your own account there isn't any reason to believe that that is what he is doing, and I don't understand you to be implying that either. If I'm reading you correctly, your argument is strictly procedural. Since it is a much bigger danger to include a copyvio than to remove a non-copyvio, it would be better to convince the interested parties that the edits aren't actually copyvios. Then we could move on. causa sui (talk) 22:15, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Not a stretch at all. WP:ADMIN clearly indicates the concern:  "involved administrators may have, or may be seen as having, a conflict of interest in disputes they have been a party to or have strong feelings about."  Such is the case here.  Repeated deletions, at an article in the ARBPIA content area, by an admittedly involved sysop.  No credible claim of copyvio.  Zero talk page discussion, while making the deletions.  That this is being done in the highly sensitive ARBPIA area heightens concern as to the approach. There's no need to throw around an accusation such as "gaming the system to enforce their own positions", however apt it might be.  Hopefully, the eyes of admins on this will help us avoid future problems.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:51, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think you get it. You violated copyright policies for years. Our policies now allow the "indiscriminate removal" of the information you added during that period. You are fortunate that I am not taking "indiscriminate removal" to the full extent to which it is allowed. Any editor can remove your information -- it has nothing to do with being an administrator, I am not acting as one, but even if I was, I will not hesitate to block you if you continue to disrupt the resolution of your CCI. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Indiscriminate removal should mean being fairly liberal in removing copyvios that are discovered from Epeefleche's edits, it does not mean removing information Epeefleche wrote just for the sake that he wrote it. That is disruptive. Silver  seren C 16:17, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, it does mean that. Policy is that "If contributors have been shown to have a history of extensive copyright violation, it may be assumed without further evidence that all of their major contributions are copyright violations, and they may be removed indiscriminately. See Contributor copyright investigations." --Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Basically, once things reach the point of a CCI, all contributions by an editor are to be assumed copyvio unless proven otherwise. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That seems like it could be very disruptive though, especially when you're considering articles that other users have likely worked on and expanded afterwards as well. Silver  seren C 21:26, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This isn't a matter of "assuming copyvios". We are talking about Mkat's deletions yesterday -- years (and 50-80,000 edits?) after I wasn't familiar with our copyvio rules.  And the material Mkat deleted here was by no means a copyvio.  His assertion to the contrary notwithstanding.  Mkat wasn't "assuming" anything.  He looked at the language and the source and made a completely unfounded assertion, without tp discussion, in his COI area.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:48, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In that case, uploading copyvios is what is disruptive. That subsequent editors then rework the copyrighted content (making the Wikimedia Foundation a distributor of an unlicensed derivative work) that then has to be removed is disruption caused by the person who uploaded the copyvio, not the person who removed it. A lot of thought has gone into this and the legal implications of unlicensed derivatives combined with the high ratio of (effort to detect copyvios:effort to add copyvios) make wholesale removal of legally dubious content a cost of doing business around here. causa sui (talk) 21:41, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The issue here, above, involved Mkat hiding behind the dubious assertion of copyvio. I doubt an objective editor would find this -- his most recent deletion -- to be a copyvio.  When an editor deletes material under such a dubious claim of copyvio, that could easily be seen as disruptive if it is part of a problem.  He also failed to use the talkpage for discussion -- or even respond to discussion opened on the talkpage.  That is also not good practice where one is deleting material three times in an hour.  This is compounded by the fact that this matter is in the ARBPIA area, where sensitivities are heightened.  And, of course, it is further compounded where (as here) the sysop is without question an involved editor.  I've no problem at all with real copyvios being struck.  But that's not what was at issue here at all, as you can see if you look at the diff provided.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:39, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * My initial concern was prompted by the fact that Mkat: a) deleted material 3 times in half an hour; b) with a wholly dubious claim of copyvio (see his most recent deletion), c) failed to communicate via talkpage; d) in the sensitive ARBPIA area; e) where Mkat is an involved editor; f) without modeling best behavior as called for by wp:admin. I raised the issue here so others could keep an eye on this, and ensure that it does not inflate, as I've felt he has lashed out in the past when I've disagreed with him.  I agree with Silver that Mkat's edits here were leaning towards the disruptive.


 * Mkat today appears to be reacting to my having disagreed with him, by seeking retribution. As background, when I first started at wikipedia -- many years ago -- I followed what I saw as wp practice; practice that was not in compliance with our rules.  Not knowing our rules in this area, I did indeed make errors at that time, and years ago added some material that should properly be cited, revised, or redacted.  I have years of editing since then, with tens of thousands of edits, and now that I have read our rules I've complied carefully with them.


 * But Mkat -- directly after I disagreed with him yesterday -- has now undertaken to delete in toto some articles I've worked on. Articles of Olympic athletes.  As in this deletion of the Yves Dreyfus article today.  And this deletion of the Vivian Joseph article today I can't see what he deleted, so I don't know whether some level of deletion is appropriate ; it may be.  But certainly, I can't imagine that there is a need to delete such articles of Olympic athletes in toto.  This is just this sort of retribution by Mkat that I was afraid of.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Epeefleche, this is what happens to serial copyright violators. I had to do it to User:Gavin.Collins. If it makes you feel any better, I'll do the next batch of content removal. If you could provide a list of all your copyright violations...but given the volume, I doubt you'd remember. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:59, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Elen -- as we discussed elsewhere, though it goes beyond what you were requesting above, I'm happy to and have now volunteered to look at old articles I created, and delete or fix copyvios where I see them. Hopefully that will not only help fix them up, but also allow us to focus us on the issues that prompted this AN/I.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This is a very transparent modus operandi: file an ANI report and then claim that any subsequent action is "retribution". Then canvas (for which you've been blocked before) your mates who tried to prevent a CCI being opened under the guise of being neutral (soliciting the uninvolved Yoenit as well ). --Mkativerata (talk) 22:10, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ugh. causa sui (talk) 22:13, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Mkat -- you've not addressed the concerns I raised above about your recent deletions. Instead, you seem to be seeking to deflect the discussion.  Weren't you an involved editor, deleting material multiple times, the last time (at least) clearly not a copyvio (though you claimed it was), who despite being an involved editor failed both to engage in talkpage discussion and to -- given your being an involved editors -- post the issue elsewhere so it could be addressed?  Rather than seeking to engage in character assassination, over what happened years ago (and I don't have clear recollections as to edits from five years ago), and many tens of thousands of edits ago, when I did not know our rules -- let's focus on what you did the past two days.  As to your accusation of canvassing -- are you serious?  Take a look at wp:CANVASS -- that is an absurd and unwarranted accusation -- it does little for the conversation when editors make baseless assertions.  That's not canvassing -- quite the opposite, it is what wp:CANVASS indicates is not canvassing.  As to "M.O." -- let's be clear.  You are the involved editor who under the baseless (certainly, as to the most recent edit) guise of copyvio deleted material in an area you are involved in, refused to use or respond on the talkpage.  And now in retribution, immediately after I disagree with you at a wholly unrelated article, you delete in toto bios of Olympic athletes.  I've no problem as I've indicated with copyvios being redacted.  But the fact that your reaction to someone disagreeing with you is to do this is problematic -- surely, the entire articles are not copyvios, and surely, the fact that athlete x, from country y, won medal z in the Olympics of xxxx is not a copyvio ... yet you delete even that.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:39, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Mkativerata began working on your CCI in January 2011. It's pretty obvious looking at the history of the CCI that what brought him to the article in question was resuming work on your CCI. (<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Contributor_copyright_investigations/Epeefleche&action=history>) He had never touched that article before. It isn't wholly unrelated; it is in fact intrinsically linked to the copyright work -- midway down this section, and he had moved to the next article in that list before you ever disagreed at the other article. Given that Mkativerata's approach to the CCI now is the same as it was in January, it's hard to see this as retribution.


 * I have in one capacity or another worked on most or perhaps all of the CCIs we've completed. Your CCI has not had much progress yet, so you may not know, but blanking articles listed at CCI where any copying is found is common. This flags that concerns have been located. Reviewers are not expected to rewrite content, although of course they can. They've done a service simply by confirming the problem. Once the article is blanked, you have a week at minimum to work on it. (Anyone else may work on a rewrite, too.) If a rewrite that fixes the problem is not proposed, the article may be stubbed or deleted if the content added by the subject of the CCI is extensive. This is standard operating procedure for CCIs. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:15, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Moon -- I think its pretty obvious that, in this edit that kicked off this discussion, Mkat was not doing "CCI work", looking at old edits. But -- hiding behind an unsupportable and baseless assertion of "close paraphrasing", deleting material written that same day, that was nothing of the sort.  Moon -- tell me honestly:  Would you have deleted taht language under the assertion of close paraphrasing yourself?  There have been attempts by some to ignore this issue.  There have been attempts by some to ignore that he was doing this in a COI area, that he was making repeated reverts without any talkpage discussion whatsover (and not even responding to talkpage discussion), and that he was doing this in the sensitive ARBPIA area.  It is perhaps telling that some editors who have commented here in his support have completely ignored these facts, and ignored how this diverges from the strictures of wp:admin as to how an admin should behave.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm going to answer this below, since in substance it ties into your last note. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Come-on people; let’s cease with wikislogans like If it's possibly a copyright violation, it should be removed immediately pending peer review. Even Wikipedia sometimes uses *real evidence* here at ANIs. “Close paraphrases” are not copyright violations by any stretch of the imagination nor do they constitute plagiarism if it they are merely a “close paraphrase”; the litmus test is stricter than that. Anyone who editwars under such pretense has no leg to stand on. Given that Mkativerata is an involved editor, he must abide by the 3RR and edit warring restrictions everyone else are expected to abide by. I note Mkativerata’s fine posturing like how he won’t be “distracted by obstructionism,” but there are only so many ways short pithy English-langauge sentences that are grammatically correct can be constructed. The proper test for whether close paraphrasing must also be accompanied by an in-line citation is paraphrasing very closely. It is irrelevant whether a collaboration between Zeus and Oprah “uncovered a long history of copyright violations” and this caused Mkativerata to role his eyes *extra-extra* far into his forehead, nor does it matter if these two editors hate each others guts, nor does it matter if Mkativerata postures with Great Determination®™© and speaks of overcoming obstructionism; the only relevant issue here in this ANI is whether Mkativerata’s serial reverting has a proper foundation. And that means the basis must pass the “Reasonable Man” test: Let’s see hard evidence one way or another as to whether the deleted text is a paraphrasing “very closely” and is deserving of having an in-line citation. It might also be interesting to see if we have an 800-pound gorilla in the room no one is talking about. Is this about a pro-Israeli editor and an anti-Israeli editor bashing each other, trying to make substantial changes to the message point of the articles, and are trying to justify their actions by hiding behind the apron strings of misapplied policies? Who is *really* doing what, and why? Is there *really* “very close” paraphrasing? If that’s the case (and I see no evidence yet that it is) are Mkativerata’s remedies (wholesale deletion of text along with accompanying citations) best serving the project(?) or is are his edits just POV-pushing under a pretense that can’t be buttressed with real evidence?  Greg L (talk) 23:22, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A close paraphrase of a copyrighted work is indeed a copyright violation as an unauthorized derivative work. T. Canens (talk) 23:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Can be, but not always. Paraphrasing a single sentence is out of a long article is generally fair use and thus not a copyright violation.  A cited statement that is reworded from a single sentence of a source is, AFAIK, generally acceptable in any setting as long as it is cited.  Academics do this all the time (summarizing someone's work by using a close paraphrase of a sentence or two of an abstract is extremely common). Hobit (talk) 00:06, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The blanking Epeefleche describes is typical procedure in copyvio situations, and you need merely to look in the history to find what has been blanked. As to what has been covered over, let's take the Vivian Joseph article. The major source says:

This is what Epeefleche placed in the article

The rest of the Joseph article contains similar copy-and-paste-with-a-few-words-changed blatant copyright violations and its blanking was both utterly necessary and required. If Epeefleche does not want this to happen, then the best course of action would be to actually work with the CCI to correct the problems that s/he admits exists, before they get blanked. A much more productive course of action. --Slp1 (talk) 23:40, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As I said above, "I can't see what he deleted, so I don't know whether some level of deletion is appropriate; it may be. But certainly, I can't imagine that there is a need to delete such articles of Olympic athletes in toto. This is just this sort of retribution by Mkat that I was afraid of. BTW -- can you tell us what date that edit was added?  Also, Mkat -- directly after I disagreed with him yesterday -- has now undertaken to delete completely some articles I've worked on on Olympic athletes.  It stretches the assumption of good faith past the breaking point to think that the timing of his deletions is not accidental, but rather direct retribution.  And it is hard to believe that there is not material capable of saving--without any risk of copvio whatsoever--along the lines of "Joe T is an American boxer who won a gold glove in boxing as a heavyweight at the 1976 Summer Olympics".--Epeefleche (talk) 08:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll try again. Mkativerata has deleted nothing. He has blanked an obvious copyright problem, and the complete history, including when you added the information is still in the history.  Mkativerata has posted it on the WP:CP board where other editors and administrators will, in 5-7 days, process the listing, checking Mkativerata's claim of copyvio and acting upon it or not as they find appropriate.  At any point, you could rewrite the articles to avoid deletion or stubbing.  This was explained to you by Moonriddengirl in January, and it is clearly written clearly on the page blanking the articles. Please stop these disruptive claims of "retribution". You added massive copyright violations, and have done nothing to participate in the clean up.  Somebody else obviously has to do it for you, and you don't get to obstruct the process by attacking the cleaners. --Slp1 (talk) 13:21, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Very good. Thank you for providing the much-needed, hard evidence, Slp1. Indeed, that is not merely the “close paraphrase” that Mkativerata cited for his deletions but passes the “reasonable man” test for being what plagiarism states as requiring an in-line citation (very close paraphrasing). So why doesn’t someone (Epeefleche?) just add in-line citations to the paragraph? This seems to be an edit dispute where the content and thrust of the article is being changed by the deletion. If Epeefleche objects to that, why not add a citation? Greg L (talk) 00:09, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You appear to have a very serious misunderstanding of copyright issues.  In-line citations will not solve this issue in any way. This is neither close paraphrasing nor plagiarism.  It is a very clear cut copyright infringement. May I suggest that you read WP's policies on this matter? WP:COPYVIO.--Slp1 (talk) 00:25, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What I actually understand and what you think I understand are two different things. I’m done with you today, too. Adios. Greg L (talk) 00:47, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Plagiarism is pretty clear that adding an in-line citation to closely paraphrased content taken from non-free sources is not a solution; of "works under copyright that are not available under a compatible free license", it says "They cannot be closely paraphrased for copyright concerns, but must be substantially rewritten in original language." --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:14, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * But ... the edit that Mkat most recently deleted, under the dubious guise of copyvio, wasn't copyvio at all. The fact that he failed to engage in talkpage discussion, and did it in a sensitive area in which he has a conflict of interest, merely compounds the matter -- if there were even a gray area of concern as to copyvio, and for some reason he was opposed to talk page discussion, he could simply have posted his concern on the appropriate noticeboard so that an uninvolved editor could address it.  But the main point is -- Mkat seems to be asserting copyvio where there is none, in an area where he has a conflict of interest.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It is your opinion, not an objective truth, that there were not copyright problems with that revision. Your judgement on copyright matters have to be taken with a pinch of salt, frankly, given your history. --Slp1 (talk) 13:21, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The above-indicated diff speaks for itself. Anyone can read it.  One needn't rely on anyone else's opinion.  And it is an objective fact that he has a conflict of interest in the ARBPIA area -- he admits as much himself.--Epeefleche (talk) 09:57, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

If Greg L thinks close paraphrasing is "not copyright violations by any stretch of the imagination" and indisputably not plagiarism then Greg L's opinion on this matter is to be actively mistrusted. In fact, given the precedent of long-standing editors turning up at ANI and making such statements, it'd be good if someone took a fine-toothed comb to Greg L's longer contributions to confirm that this wasn't indicative of additional copyvio problems. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 23:52, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If you can’t understand what others write, then you ought not spout off as you just did Thumperward. I now know I can ignore the nonsense you write here. Greg L (talk) 00:03, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * An ad hominem response to a serious copyright situation is not helpful. Actively suspicious, in fact. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 00:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Now you are just trying to bait me. Try looking in the mirror next time when it comes to ad hominem responses. You started it with your “actively mistrusted” bit and then jump up and down and cry foul when someone gives you a dose of your own medicine. Then you further tried to bait me by writing it'd be good if someone took a fine-toothed comb to Greg L's longer contributions to confirm that this wasn't indicative of additional copyvio problems, which is straight out of 6th grade. How the hell old are you?? Stop acting childish and attacking others and try reading what they actually write before spouting off with something half-baked; the operative point in my above point was the adjective “very”; that point was obviously lost on you. I’m done responding to you today since I’ve got your number now, fella, and it’s obvious you enjoy personal attacks and baiting (I’d sorta bother with an ANI of my own for that hogwash, but that would be lowering myself to your level). Why not find another venue at which you can be an ornery, miserable cuss? There is ample electronic white space to get the last word. Happy editing and goodbye. Greg L (talk) 00:14, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I've little interest in being drawn into some interminable flame war, especially not with you. My comments were directed at that wider part of the community whose concern with copyright both in the hard legal sense of "we are liable to be sued here" and in the broader sense of "Wikipedia is best avoiding a reputation for a lax attitude to potential copyright issues". Your comment in defense of presented diffs showing at least the latter was troublesome. My experience in this area on WP strongly indicates that editors who make statements defending such things are more likely than average to have made such considerations regarding their own edits in the past. Your response to this was "I now know I can ignore the nonsense you write here", which as a rebuttal is seriously lacking. Forgive me for also not taking you at your word that you're disinterested in having the last word here when my current edit conflict indicates you spent at least five minutes editing this response in order to add the "ornery, miserable cuss" comment, a readaibly blockable personal attack only overlooked because there are bigger issues here (serious allegations of copyvio). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 00:28, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Didn't we just topic ban someone for refusing to work on their own CCI? Why isn't the same thing done here, especially since this CCI has now been around for about a year and Epeefleche has yet to help clean up the mess he created? T. Canens (talk) 23:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. It seems more appropriate to ban someone who still hasn't helped after a year, rather than ban someone who's CCI has just opened. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 07:57, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

For the record, here are the two sentences in question (AFICT)
 * Source


 * Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&action=edit&section=36
 * I think that the "inadvertently" is arguable a WP:OR problem (though common sense probably applies). I think that there are only so many ways to communicate the idea of the sentence and this one would seem reasonable to me.  But others, more versed in copyright issues, should probably comment. Hobit (talk) 23:58, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Even if you think that this version is adequate, it is worth noting what Mkativerata first removed as a paraphrase.
 * What mkativerata removed

which is much, much too close to the original source. Epeefleche made incremental changes all of which which Mkativerata stated, I think legitimately, remained too close to the source, before arriving at this current. --Slp1 (talk) 00:16, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Does making incremental changes to a copyvio until the wording is sufficiently different from the original make it no longer a derivative? INAL but my sources say "no". causa sui (talk) 00:19, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I certainly hope so. Otherwise we should just delete, rather than fix, any detected copyright violations.  Plus, a quote that short in a non-profit (yes it matters) is almost certainly fair use so the issue is fairly moot.  I personally think the first version is highly problematic, the last was fine and shouldn't have been deleted. Hobit (talk) 01:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry you don't overcome close paraphrasing with a thesaurus. --Mkativerata (talk) 02:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, I don't have anything better. Could you provide a way to say that same thing without being a close paraphrase?  Or is it the attempt to say the same thing, in a single sentence, that was in the original, as a single sentence, that is a problem? (Sorry that sentence sucked, did I mention I don't write well?) Hobit (talk) 02:10, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If an editor lacks the skills to do it (and I don't mean that perjoratively), in-text attribution is a safe way around the problem. And does the sentence need to be in the article in the first place? If the sentence derives from one sentence in one source, it's probably not important. So yes, it can be the very attempt to say the same thing, in a single sentence, that was in the original, as a single sentence, that is a problem --Mkativerata (talk) 02:15, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe I understand your points, but I will disagree. There are times that a single sentence can and should be paraphrased from a source.  Ignoring if this is such a case, I think that the (final) paraphrasing used is about as far from the source as it could be while still making the same point.  Would "In his 2005 book Tehran Rising: Iran's Challenge to the United States], Berman claims that by displacing Saddam Hussein and the Taliban from the  Middle East, the United States left room for Iran to fill the vacuum they left." be any better?  Eh.  Like I said, I think the final version was acceptable, but I agree the first was certainly not.  YMMV. Hobit (talk) 03:00, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree w/Hobit. And my focus is, as well, on the third deletion that Mkat made (in half an hour, without talkpage discussion).  I don't think that unwarranted assertions of copyvio should be used by a sysop, who is bound by wp:admin, and who is without question an involved editor, to delete material he doesn't like.  Copyvio is a serious and important concern.  But simply saying "I assert it is a copyvio" does not entitle Mkat to bludgeon other editors, where there is no copyvio.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:15, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with most of what hobit says but would make the further point that we are dealing with here may not even be a close paraphrase of the source stated - that is if the source "Tehran Rising," by Ilan Berman contains a sentence reading
 * then the first version is a correctly attributed quote. From memory epeefleche's CCI was mostly filled with examples like this where one secondary source correctly attributes a piece of information to another secondary source and this attribution has been closely paraphrased to wikipedia. The material being paraphrased in these cases does not begin to approach the threshold of originality required by law to assert a copyvio. That said in these cases our concern should be one of sourcing we should endeavour to cite the claim in the book rather than citing an article discussing the book as the latter is more likely to appear to be a copyvio even if it isn't. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 10:37, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

This issue involves an article that has not received attention for most of a year, but appears to be being investigated as part of a CCI investigation. However, the current dispute does not involve copyright violation, because we would not allow a copyright violation to be retained in the edit history of the article. Instead, this is an editorial dispute over non-copyright-violating "close paraphrasing" by the target of the CCI investigation. Regarding the initial recent edit to the article, the target of the CCI investigation does not dispute the concern of "close paraphrasing", and does not dispute the initial revert of the material, but instead seeks to restore the work product of the encyclopedia without the concern. This is where the dispute begins, because the subject of this ANI review refuses to allow improvements to the encyclopedia, refuses to engage in talk page discussion, and on this ANI page escalates by threatening to use administrative tools. This discussion can be resolved by reminding Mkativerata to discuss editorial disputes on the talk page. Unscintillating (talk) 17:22, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not really an accurate understanding of how we handle copyright problems. We allow them to be retained in the edit history of articles routinely. User:Flatscan and I have just been talking about how that should be addressed. But even I only revdelete extensive issues. (And Mkativerata is more conservative there than I am: ) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:52, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Unscintillating--Actually, there is nothing in Mkat's immediately prior edits to suggest that Mkat was looking at Ilan Berman as part of a CCI investigation. Nor did Mkat assert it.  BTW, though Berman had not been edited in a year as you point out, Berman had just before Mkat's edits written a NYT article that brought him onto the radar screen.  Second, I appreciate your bringing the focus back to the facts here.  Finally, it was only after I differed with Mkat that he began deleting articles just now ... before I questioned his approach, he had not touched any articles that were part of the CCI investigation for many months.  Immediately after I questioned him, he began vigorously deleting articles of Olympic medal winning athletes in total, not even leaving a stub.--Epeefleche (talk) 11:36, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * This is in response to this note and this one, as if I answer them separately I'm going to be doing a lot of repeating myself. :)


 * Mkativerata picked up working on your CCI (which is much appreciated, since nobody else has been doing it and your CCI was cited at AN a week or two ago as specific evidence that nobody cares about copyright problems) at 19:07 on 17 November. Before you edited that article, he had documented his change and moved on to the next article in line at 19:12 before you first "differed" with these two edits (at 19:16 and 19:18). I watch articles I clean for copyright problems routinely (although not always long enough, as yesterday I cleaned the same pasted content out of an article I cleaned up in 2008). If I disagreed with your rewrite, I would have left you a note at your user talk page explaining why after I reverted you, but, then, if I disagreed with admins actions related to my work, I would have left them a note at their talk page explaining why. I would not have opened an ANI without this step. I haven't looked at the text in question; I've been pretty much unavailable for CCI work myself for months. But the point isn't that Mkativerata may or may not have been wrong in his action. Sometimes there are good faith disagreements about what constitutes a close paraphrase. It happens. The point is that you are assuming a bad faith motive on Mkativerata's part (an agenda), and I do not see any evidence to support that. While Mkativerata had not done work on your CCI lately, Mkativerata has been a CCI regular in the past - this is why he is listed as a CCI Clerk. (Which just shows how out of date we are, since admins don't need to be...and that I really need to get User:MER-C some help here.) He's also been doing some much needed work at WP:CP. Sure, we can look at this in such a way as to suggest that he's been doing all this as some kind of smoke screen to allow him to press an agenda, but not without squinting really hard. :) WP:AGF says if we do any squinting, we should be squinting in the direction of assuming that people mean well.


 * In terms of avoiding distress, I'll offer you an idea: if you are unhappy with the way other people are cleaning up the CCI, why don't you do it before they get there? While you should not mark an article as resolved on your CCI, there is absolutely no reason that you can't put a note underneath the article title that you believe you have fixed it. Other CCI subjects have done this, and it can work well. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with Moonriddengirl. Her remedy (get in there preemptively to fix things) is more of a challenge than it is a solution I think Epeefleche will avail himself of. I think the best way for Epeefleche to handle Mkativerata’s deletions of his content is—rather than revert Mkativerata—to just revise the deleted text so it no longer appears as a “very close” (or merely “close”) paraphrasing of the original cited work. Thus, if Epeefleche perceives that the deletions had a POV-pushing effect, he can easily fix that problem by taking the time to address the plagiarism concerns. Mkativerata, for his part, can just make sure to leave pithy but accurate edit summaries so that Epeefleche clearly understands the true basis for the edits. Greg L (talk) 22:17, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That is good advice. Unfortunately, it seems that Epeefleche has shown little interest in collaborating with the CCI, which has made little progress in a year or so since it has been opened. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 08:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

So if Epee is altering the text repeatedly to ameliorate the copyright violation, that's a good thing right? I'd imagine Mkativerata would, on reflection, agree that even limited cooperation from CCI subjects is better than no cooperation. Since the text has been adjusted significantly to the point that it no longer appears to be a copyright violation (demonstrating, by the by, how easy it is to avoid such a violation in the first place), and Mkat hasn't reverted it again, we're done here with this issue, yes?

And now the next issue: let's discuss (as with Richard Arthur Norton) if Epeefleche's activities should be restricted by topic ban to working with the CCI until his/her contributions have been fully cleaned. <strong style="color:#0033CC">Nathan <strong style="color:#0033CC"> T 23:37, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Let’s be clear about something, Nathan. Epeefleche is a mature and highly educated editor; he’s not some sort of 16-year-old kid out to make trouble. Notwithstanding his education, he dicked up with some colossal plagiarism and he’s admitted that he screwed up. But part of why he keeps finding himself embroiled here at ANI is because he works in a controversial area: terrorist-related articles. That sort of area intrinsically brings editors with a pro-Israeli bias into conflict with those who have an pro-Islam bias (known, using the standard wiki-quoloqialism, as “POV-pushing where the respective parties have a hard time comprehending other’s worldview”). So… I have a better idea. Rather than give a productive and mature editor the equivalent of an atomic wedgie (with a splendid public-humiliation tar & feathering aspect to it), we just sit back and watch how Epeefleche and Mkativerata collaborate on Targeted killing; Mkativerata just got through blanking the article for copyright violations. I propose we keep a keen eye for the sort of behavior that these two editors accuse each other of: Epeefleche’s alleged failure to revise very close paraphrasing, and Mkativerata’s alleged use of copyright violations as a pretense to POV-push. Let the sunshine of public inspection reveal the truth of the matter. Greg L (talk) 00:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Greg L's first two sentences. I don't think there's a need for any editing restriction. Fact: Everything I've seen Epeefleche create since the CCI started is copyvio-free. It's irritating in a way that the CCI remains on foot while Epeefleche enjoys full editing privileges, but irritation isn't a ground for an editing restriction. All I ask is that Epeefleche stays out of the way of editors trying to clean up the copyright violations. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think we can move forward with that consensus: Epeefleche isn't uploading any copyvios since the CCI started; Mkativerata is using a blunt instrument to remove coypvios uploaded by Epeefleche in the past, but that is sometimes necessary; anyone distressed by this is invited to clean up coypvios in the CCI in whatever other way they see fit before Mkativerata gets to them. Resolved? :-) causa sui (talk) 07:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I had some trouble understanding some of the positions taken in this discussion. I found the urls and references in the diffs made it harder to see just what had changed between the versions.  So I created a scratch page, in user space, where i could strip out the hidden material, and just use diffs to see how the text changed.


 * It is my understanding that ideas aren't copyrightable -- only how they are expressed.


 * We are all volunteers here. No one can force us to undertake a specific task.  But, I think once we have undertaken a task we have a responsibility to see it through.


 * As an administrator Mkat is authorized to excise passages he or she thinks represent a problem. He or she did that here.  Mkat edit summary said "Rm a couple of close paraphrases and fix a couple of quotes." -- I suspect most administrators wouldn't have thought any further explanation was necessary -- this time.


 * However their 2nd excision only said "remains a close paraphrase.. ."  And their 3rd excision said "Synonyms and syntax changes do not change close paraphrasing. As a CCI subject you are treading on dangerous ground."


 * The contributor who made repeated attempts to rewrite the passage says they hoped for more useful feedback as to why their subsequent attempts were being excised. It seems to me that Epee's good faith efforts to draft replacement passages deserved more effort on mkat's part to explain what was wrong with the replacements.  Am I missing something?  Has mkat made any effort beyond those edit summaries to explain these excisions?


 * In particular, others have questioned mkat's third excision. I really don't think this thread should be closed without greater discussion as to why that attempted rewrite merited excision.  I too don't understand why it was excised.


 * As I understand it, blocks and bans are not punishment, they are tools intended to preserve the integrity of the project. As I understand it contributors who return from a block, or who have had a topic ban, or other administrative condition agreed upon, should be entitled to the assumption of good faith, so long as they seem to have learned their lesson.


 * I was not aware that epee had been the subject of a CCI -- whatever that is. But he seems to have made good faith attempts to remedy whatever lapses he made in the past.


 * It seems to me that one interpretation of mkat's edit summary "As a CCI subject you are treading on dangerous ground" was that this may have been mkat's way of warning epee that he would be blocked if he made another attempt to draft a replacement passage. This really concerns me.  I am really concerned when I see an administrator making a vague warning to a good faith contributor that they may block them in the future, when that warning doesn't clearly say what future behavior will trigger the block and under which policy they think the block is authorized.


 * This warning -- if that is what it was -- seems very problematic to me, if mkat can't offer a fuller explanation for the excision that accompanied it.


 * Included for your reading pleasure -- diffs with extraneous hidden material excised, so you can see more clearly, how the different versions varied. Geo Swan (talk) 19:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * {| class="wikitable"


 * || target of 'close paraphrase' claim ||
 * || diff between target and version 1 ||
 * || diff between target and version 2 ||
 * || diff between target and version 3 || If you only click on one link here, click on this one. It is the excision of this version that I think most clearly merits further explanation.
 * || diff between target and current version ||
 * }
 * I left a message on mkat's talk page asking mkat to explain more fully the reasoning behing his or her third excision. I asked mkat for the reasoning behind his threats to block epee.  I hope they will return here and do so.  Geo Swan (talk) 06:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * || diff between target and current version ||
 * }
 * I left a message on mkat's talk page asking mkat to explain more fully the reasoning behing his or her third excision. I asked mkat for the reasoning behind his threats to block epee.  I hope they will return here and do so.  Geo Swan (talk) 06:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I left a message on mkat's talk page asking mkat to explain more fully the reasoning behing his or her third excision. I asked mkat for the reasoning behind his threats to block epee.  I hope they will return here and do so.  Geo Swan (talk) 06:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Mkat did respond, briefly, on his talk page. His response was basically a repeat of his or her original edit summary.  Since several people here have said they don't understand why epee's attempt the mkat excised in his third excision should be considered a close paraphrase, I really think a more specific explanation is called for.  Several other contributors seem to have endorsed all his excisions -- including the third.  Since mkat seems unwilling or unable to offer an explanation, maybe one of the other participants here who endorsed this excision can offer their reasoning for considering it a "close paraphrase"?  Mkat's response also did not address my concern that the warnings they left for epee were unhelpful because they didn't layout which behaviors epee should avoid to avoid triggering the block, and they didn't help epee, or anyone else reading the discussion, which policy would authorize that block.  Geo Swan (talk) 22:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

New blanking by Mkativerata in his COI area; Mkat's threat to block
Mkat admits he has a conflict of interest in the ARBPIA area. In deletions that triggered this AN/I, he ignored his COI. (His claim of "close paraphrasing" was highly dubious, but even had it not been dubious his correct course given his COI would have been to post his concern on a noticeboard, where someone non-involved could pursue it). Mkat was alerted to this issue.

Mkat responded above: "I will not hesitate to block you if you continue to disrupt the resolution of your CCI." But -- I haven't been disrupting any CCI. That sysop Mkat would threaten me with a block, for reporting my concerns above, troubles me.

Mkat has just now, after the above AN/I discussion, gone 1 step further. Blanking the entire article targeted killing. An article that is clearly within his COI area. (which I contributed to significantly this past year).

As an aside, it is highly dubious that this 194-ref targeted killing article was a copyvio. And that Mkat's blanking of it was proper--even if Mkat had not had a COI.

Mkat is thus continuing to delete material in disregard of his COI. And of wp:admin. And he only began blanking articles I had worked on after our disagreement 4 days ago on 2 sentences in the Berman article -- before the Berman article, he had not blanked or deleted material from any articles I worked on for at least 10 months, as far as I can recall, but after I disagreed with him he engaged in the above behavior. That adds to the impression that his blanking here is part of a pattern of retribution. By an involved sysop.

I gather that Mkat is displeased I disagreed with him 2 days ago, as to what constituted a "close paraphrase". And as to his failure to use the talkpage for discussion. But I wonder whether his blocking threat and his article blanking here, especially given his COI, are what wp:admin had in mind.--Epeefleche (talk) 09:03, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You are attributing motives when there does not seem to be one. Frankly, at this point I'm sorely tempted to just write a script that adds {{subst:copyvio}} to all the articles referenced in the CCI. You are also totally confusing conflict of interest and involvement. T. Canens (talk) 10:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Just in case anyone is interested, here is the explanation for my self-declaration of ARBPIA involvement. --Mkativerata (talk) 10:28, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * So the entirety of your "involvement" is having endorsed two views in an RFC in 2010? Honestly, I think you are being overly cautious here. That makes the claims here even more spurious... T. Canens (talk) 11:58, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have demonstrated, with diffs, that Mkativerata picked up on your work on CCI and was continuing to work on your CCI before you objected to the first edit. It's true he had not yet blanked an article on this go-around; had Mkativerata never blanked an article of yours before or if blanking articles for further evaluation at WP:CP wasn't standard, you might have cause for concern. But Mkativerata's behavior here is no different than Mkativerata's behavior was in January (for one example of many: ). It is the same behavior he has brought to bear on other CCIs in unrelated areas (for one example: ), and it is the same behavior others bring to bear on CCIs, where blanking articles is one of the standard operating procedures. (We even have a special template for articles that are blanked without evidence where presumption of copying is strong: CCId.) I have no reason to think that Mkativerata is handling your CCI any differently than anybody else's CCI has been handled. Actually, I think blanking is likely more prudent than text removal at this point given your presumption of bad faith on his part. That way, he flags the problem, but another administrator will oversee any proposed cleanup you place in the temp space and work with you through any disagreements on whether or not content has been rewritten from scratch. I have myself taken this tack when contributors personalize cleanup efforts of their CCIs to help minimize any feeling that I might be subjecting them to unfair scrutiny because I don't like them or because I have a bias against their subject areas. (That said, I don't at all mean to discourage Mkativerata from removing or rewriting the content directly.) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 11:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Epeefleche, you're not doing yourself any huge favors here. You fail to mention in your complaint that Mkat first removed numerous specific examples of copyright violations, and only upon deciding that it was likely the entire article was suspect did he proceed to blank it. This thought progression is pretty clear and obvious just from the edit history. If you want to rescue the article, fix it. If you want to avoid having this happen to other articles of yours, fix them. If you'd rather go on working on new content and avoid any attempt to fix your past mistakes, just wipe your watchlist and start over. <strong style="color:#0033CC">Nathan <strong style="color:#0033CC"> T 15:42, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Nathan. As indicated above, I've volunteered to fix old copyvios.  I'm more than willing to do that.  As to the more immediate concern-- the targeted killing article -- I've asked Mkat (at the article talkpage) to indicate where he believes there are copyvios.  That way, the community can discuss if they are in fact copyvios (as indicated by a number of editors now, the Mkat-claimed copyvio that spurred this AN/I was likely not a copyvio at all, and it may not always be the case that a claim is in fact correct).  Once Mkat indicates what he believes are copyvios, that will enable the community to understand what is troubling him that he thinks requires deletion of the article.  Editors will be better able then to either discuss (though it is unclear to me at this point what import even consensus disagreement with his view would have) and/or "fix" the text.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:04, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Your text-walling on Talk:Muslim Arab Youth Association -- seven questions! -- is plain disruptive. Your demand at Talk:Targeted killing for me to identify each and every copyvio in a 130kb article you founded is even more so.--Mkativerata (talk) 01:37, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I came here from another users talk page where Epeefleche had left a message with a link to this thread in a section below a message I had left that user. As such I know little about this case other than what I haver read here.

@Greg L, I thought your tenacious defence of Epeefleche's behaviour over the introduction of the Targeted killing article was misguided, but there you are, it was a matter of opinion. To my surprise I find you here in this thread trying to defend the undefendable. Just out of interest can you provide a diff to the last time that you criticised anything Epeefleche has done, or vice versa? -- PBS (talk) 15:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I am amazed that Epeefleche opened this ANI and there are several points I would like to make: Epeefleche wrote above "Involved editors can of course delete blatant vandalism. ... not a copyvio at all, and certainly not a blatant copyvio." That statement shows that Epeefleche has no understanding of how much copyright infringement endangers this project. Blatant petty vandalism is annoying, but it does not threaten the project. Subtle vandalism that introduces libel that goes undetected for months does, and so do copyright violations if we are not seen to be using due diligence to prevent it and clean it up. This makes me wonder how likely it is that Epeefleche has seen the light and understands how much damage (s)he has done to the project.

I find this statement baffling "We are talking about Mkat's deletions yesterday -- years (and 50-80,000 edits?) after I wasn't familiar with our copyvio rules." Is Epeefleche stating the when (s)he wrote the Targeted killing article on 30 September 2010 (s)he was not familiar with the "copyright rules"? Or is it that there were no copyright violations in that article? If (s)he was not familiar with the "copyright rules" on 30 of September last year on what date did (s)he become familiar with them? -- PBS (talk) 15:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Request for block of Epeefleche
Almost two years ago, when raised copyright concerns with Epeefleche, she was [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Epeefleche&oldid=351672760#Copyright.2Fplagiarism_concerns. attacked]. When filed a necessary CCI in December last year, he was attacked. Now I try to clean up the extraordinary copyright violations that Epeefleche has introduced, despite warning, over a long period, I am the subject of harassment, by virtue of this ANI and disruptive text-walling. Today the disruption has reached new heights, with absurd badgering (Talk:Muslim Arab Youth Association) and absurd requests (eg Talk:Targeted killing, asking that I specify all individual copyright violations in a 130kb article, when I have already given multiple examples in the article's edit history). This has to stop. It is plainly disruptive. The intention is obviously to harrass me with complaints and questions until I am driven away from the CCI. Epeefleche's intention to disrupt is evidence by his canvassing of others to participate here (evidence above). I'm calling for him to be blocked pending a discussion of an appropriate edit restriction to prevent him from disrupting his CCI.

The community has to get serious: does it support editors who do the hard work of removing large-scale copyright violations (and I'm acting as an editor in this CCI, I have not once used admin tools) or not? If Epeefleche is permitted to continue this disruption, the answer from the administrative corps would be an obvious "no". The CCI is less than 1% complete. It is part of a massive CCI backlog. Those who work on CCI need to be supported. --Mkativerata (talk) 02:24, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The timing of this request is curious and is suggestive of rage and a personal vendetta. I just got through adding my 2¢ on Mkativerata’s talk page . Just 38 minutes later, he hit “Save page” on this request to block Epeefleche. The timing comes across as “Well then… eat this!” What I wrote there was exactly what I honestly feel about what is going on with him and Epeefleche. His escalation of this ongoing tit-for-tat seems to be an awful lot of wikidrama. I suggest he take a 24 hour wikibreak to cool down. Greg L (talk) 02:43, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The timing of this request seems suggestive of an understandable frustration to me. I am reluctantly forced to agree that something needs to be done. I have been trying to keep an eye on communication here, and I agree that the result of Epeefleche's "interactions" is disruptive. See and, where he continues to imply that this is all being blown out of proportion. It took me 20 seconds to find that he had copied this bit of prose from the New York Times in the former: "'Allah Akhbar,' roared the crowd, offering spontaneous praise." Mkativerata identified other text. In the latter? Well: from the Washington Post, for example:


 * From the article (citations removed; they don't justify copying):


 * I found this through a quick google search. Mkativerata had likely already identified it and others in edit summaries. If Epeefleche had spent even part of the energy on rewriting his content that he has spent in trying to imply that there's nothing wrong with it, both those articles would have already been repaired. His insistence on fighting every step of the way is going to make his CCI impossible to conduct, and I don't see any reason to believe that he is going to be willing to collaborate rather than combat. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 02:54, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree that Epeefleche should help fix the copyvios. But if I correctly understand the interpersonal dynamics here, the process by which Mkativerata is blanking article content and then telling Epeefleche to keep clear while Mkativerata unilaterally fixes the articles is a bitter pill to swallow for someone who was the shepherding author of an article. We all have to struggle against WP:OWN tendencies when someone runs roughshod on articles we created and it takes extreme maturity to remain civil. But everything I see about Mkativerata’s approach to communicating with Epeefleche and others betrays an arrogance that inflames the situation. We just don’t need that in an admin and currently, the en.Wikipedia has no great process to reign in admins who react passionately. On Mkativerata’s talk page, Geo Swan left a lengthy and mature post (permalink) asking Mkativerata to explain and justify his latest actions and Mkativerata left a one-liner response that wasn’t much more than “The edit summaries speak for themselves.” Mkativerata seems to be taking this all too personally (perceives all criticism as a challenge to his authority and a personal affront) and has lost perspective as to what Wikipedia is about. It is not about wikidrama and is all about decompressing and communication rather than brute force and escalation. Greg L (talk) 03:08, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * How else is there to take a statement like "I can see I'm wasting my time with someone who has let power go to his head" than as a "personal affront"? Is it really meant to decompress and communicate? If so, I'm afraid you may have missed that mark. :/ That said, I don't agree with you that this is necessarily a response to your edit. Had he taken you to WP:WQA, certainly. This seems a natural result of Epeefleche challenging clean up efforts rather than contributing to them. Can you explain to me where you see Mkativerata unilaterally fixing articles or why you think that's what's happening? In the past, when Mkativerata has blanked Epeefleche's articles, he has listed them at CP and left them for another admin to handle. This is common procedure. On what do you base your conclusion that this time is different? --Moonriddengirl (talk) 03:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I’m sorry Moonriddengirl, but I don’t agree with the apparent premiss of your posts here, which seem intended to paint Mkativerata’s dealings with Epeefleche as having been exemplary and his motivations pure as the driven snow. I assume that Geo Swan is an unbiased third party here. Am I wrong about that? But Mkativerata’s response to Geo Swan on his talk page where Geo was asking him to explain himself amounted to “I don’t need to explain myself to anyone” and betrays that he perceives Wikipedia as a WP:BATTLEGROUND. And then his rushing here to post this request 38 minutes after my hubris to challenge his motivations and behavior was pure and childish “neener neener”. I find that claims of AGF and WP:SHEAR INNOCENT COINCIDENCE to be unconvincing after a modicum of WP:COMMONSENSE is applied. Those two just need to stay away from each other for a week.  Greg L (talk) 04:38, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I realize that you don't agree; if you did, you probably wouldn't have left this message, much less the one at his talk page I linked above. The one you left at Talk:Targeted killing carries the same strong implication that you believe Mkativerata is rewriting Epeefleche's articles to include some kind of bias; I'm really curious as to why you think "Mkativerata is blanking article content and then telling Epeefleche to keep clear while Mkativerata unilaterally fixes the articles." Mkativerata offered yesterday before all this escalated to slow down on blanking articles to allow Epeefleche time to rewrite them (Full conversation). I just don't know where you got the impression that Mkativerata was intending to unilaterally fix these articles. The template with which they are blanked includes instructions for where to rewrite them; anybody can. :/ --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:56, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A block seems highly appropriate. Mkativerata has produced evidence of a long-standing pattern of behaviour by Epeefleche that involves attacking those who try to clear up copyvios. You don't even need to be an admin to help clear them up so all this stuff about being an involved admin is nonsense. We need to show support of those involved in the often thankless task of dealing with copyvios and help them protect Wikipedia by blocking those who seek to sabotage their efforts.--Peter cohen (talk) 03:31, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I am not going to say yea or nay to blocking but I think people ought to read: Talk:Targeted killing, look at Epeefleche edit history over the last 24 hours including the edits here and on the talk page of Talk:Targeted killing, and weigh up if Epeefleche is helping or hindering the copyright clean up. -- PBS (talk) 04:07, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Blocked indef. Any admin may unblock when they are satisfied that Epeefleche will no longer disrupt the CCI. T. Canens (talk) 04:29, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Timotheus Canens has again shown his bias. Extra hard on editors he is opposed to and kind of forgiving to the ones he agrees with. Shame that any rfc will get bogged down in filibustering, shenanigans, and complete ridiculousness (recalling an admin is like pulling teeth). Time fore TC to stop making blocks for editors he has had any dealings with in the IP area since he gives those he prefers leeway. Evidence shows that he is involved even if it is not actual editing.Cptnono (talk) 04:45, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * So the gang are moving on from claiming that the person who was fixing the CCI is an evil anti-Zionist who imagines blatant copyright violations when all that the original editor was doing was to try to ensure that poor little Israel was given a fair hearing to claiming that the person who made the block is one? Unfortunately this is not the only page where this ad hominem sophistry is going on. Time for ARBPIA++. --Peter cohen (talk) 13:28, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And the case is Arbitration/Requests/Case.--Peter cohen (talk) 14:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That this all started a mere 38 minutes after I had the hubris to lip off to Mkativerata for his blunt dealings with Epeefleche makes this seem particularly unseemly. Both editors (Epeefleche and Mkativerata) were giving each others public wedgies. That is human nature. But rewarding an admin for “being right” on the principle of fixing copyvio problems but being way-wrong with his interpersonal dealings with a hard-working editor until the conflict escalated to this looks really poor. And I don’t know why everyone pretends to not notice the 800-pound gorilla in the room that underlies this whole fiasco. Epeefleche has complained that Mkativerata waters down articles that are critical of radical Islam. Epeefleche errs the other way. The root of the enmity between the two is a battle of POV-pushing and it seems to me that Mkativerata exploited Epeefleche’s copyvio issues to go and strip out parts of articles Mkativerata didn’t like. Epeefleche saw that and the battle was on. Greg L (talk) 04:52, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's just too bad. I have no knowledge of the accuracy of your claim, but even if it is correct, a person who has introduced copyvio problems has to get out of the way when others try to fix it. The situation is pretty simple: Are there significant plagiarism issues? Does the community support those willing to clean them up? It looks like yes is the answer to the first question, while the second has received a yes from T. Canens and a not really from others. Johnuniq (talk) 10:27, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Greg L, it is easy to assert that Mkativerata is "watering down" articles that are critical of radical Islam, but Epeefleche's complaining that it is do does not make it so. And the hypothesis that Mkativerata is pushing some kind of pro-Islam agenda doesn't fit into the facts that his evaluation includes articles like David Blu, Isadore Schwartz, Herbert Flam and Marvin Goldklang, which are remarkably clear of anti-Islam sentiment. A far more plausible explanation is that Mkativerata is doing what we all do at CCI; reviewing a cross-section of the contributors' work. Your assertion that "The root of the enmity between the two is a battle of POV-pushing and it seems to me that Mkativerata exploited Epeefleche’s copyvio issues to go and strip out parts of articles Mkativerata didn’t like" requires evidence. Your certainty that your post, 38 minutes before this ANI expansion, was the catalyst for this ANI expansion is puzzling, given that a far more plausible explanation is that Mkativerata began working on an ANI post which he completed at 2:24 right after working on a response at Talk:Muslim Arab Youth Association at 1:54 and 2:01. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:17, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Of course it's true that removing Epeefleche's contributions has the effect of watering down criticisms of Islam; that is a consequence of the sort of content Epeefleche has added. What is missing is evidence that Mkativerata is doing this as part of a pro-Islamic agenda (rather than an anti-copyvio one).  Kanguole 14:11, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I could just as easily write Of course Epeefleche's attempts to restore text has the effect of restoring criticism of Islam; that is a consequence of the sort of stuff Mkativerata deletes. As you wrote, we need evidence to judge this. But as we also all know, a blow-by-blow, edit-by-edit discussion to analyze the truth of the extent to with each party is POV-pushing is beyond the scope of this ANI. Why? Because Epeefleche doesn’t have any leg to stand on given his copyvio issues. I’m not defending Epeefleche and the slant he brings to terrorist-related articles, I’m merely saying that it is clear to me, looking at the totality of what is going on, that Mkativerata is exploiting the correction of copyvio to POV-push and that’s obviously the root source of a lot of the friction between these two editors. Since I know Epeefleche, I am ruling out the possibility that he has recently succumbed to schizophrenia and is imagining things. Dialing our Common-Sense-O-Meters to “100,” we also know that Wikipedia is a big place and everyone here is a volunteer. What would motivate an editor like Mkativerata to devote the tedious effort to clean up Epeefleche’s articles? To protect the project from a lawsuit? To do good for humanity? We all know that usually this sort of dedication requires a personal motivation and countering someone else’s  POV pushing is the most common motivation—and it results in a lot of wikidrama here.  Now, this edit of Mkativerata’s, where he deleted text that began with He wrote in his 2005 book… and that introduction was followed with a close paraphrase is all the attribution required; since it is a close paraphrase and not an exact quote, it would be flat-improper to put quotes around it. Yet Mkativerata deleted even though the attribution was fully sufficient. I can scarcely see how that sort of thing does the project any good; Mkativerata thought he saw yet another thing of Epeefleche’s he could delete but stepped over the line in his zeal and got caught. It doesn’t take Dr. Phil to figure out what’s going on between these two and what their motivations are. It’s clear Mkativerata feels is in the right, as evidenced by his royally flippant response to Geo Swan on his talk page, when he left only a one-liner amounting to “I’ve said all I need to say about what I’m up to” when asked to explain himself.  I just want to see the interests of our readership best served. Epeefleche has had run-ins in the past when editors would change text that read like this: Another on the U.S.’s kill list is Anwar al-Awlaki (an American citizen who declared jihad against America) and change it to Another on the U.S.’s kill list is Anwar al-Awlaki (a conservative Muslim scholar). The latter one obviously does not focus on what makes Anwar al-Awlaki notable as judged by the preponderance of the RSs. We all know this sort of POV-pushing will occur a hundred times just today. Now, I’m not suggesting that what Mkativerata is doing is nearly that egregious; it is far more subtle from what I can see—but it is palpable and real, in my opinion. Wikipedia is a battleground for a tug-of-war between editors who have different worldviews and want to effect change in Wikipedia’s articles; that’s not what we want, but that’s the simple reality of a phenomenon that is real. I consider myself to be a middle-of-the-roader, where the proper balance in our articles should reflect the general tone of the RSs—I have a keen eye for that.  As for what Mkativerata does with these articles from hereon, the proof will be in the pudding when he’s done with Targeted killing and any other articles Epeefleche has had a hand in from this point forward. Epeefleche is blocked now. What with Mkativerata request here coming 38 minutes after I took him to task on his own talk page, indeed, my involvement certainly didn’t help Epeefleche; but then, Mkativerata coming here 38 minutes later had something to do with it and I think the stunt made him just look like he reacts in anger, which we don’t need on Wikipedia. So what’s done is done. The community is watching both these guys now, including me. Greg L (talk) 17:47, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The idea that the most likely explanation for Mkativerata's efforts to remove copyright infringements is that s/he is trying to promote a POV is absurd. There are many editors who do remove copyright infringements "To protect the project from a lawsuit" or "To do good for humanity". A little looking would have shown you that Mkativerata has done work on many other copyright investigations (see, for instance, this one, this one or this one). Making wild unfounded accusations about an experienced editor is not going to help your case.  Hut 8.5  18:19, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You and I clearly don’t see eye to eye on this, Hut 8.5. The above linked edit-diff shows that my views of what Mkativerata is up to are not “unfounded” as you allege. Mkativerata has a lot of friends and they naturally come to his defense in ANIs like this against him. But nose-count of support does not explain away clear evidence. So we’ll just have to agree to disagree, OK? Greg L (talk) 18:23, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No-one's going to see eye to eye with you on this unless you can provide more evidence to substantiate your accusation of bad faith. I'm not a "friend" of Mkativerata and I have no prior recollection of interacting with him/her. The idea that putting a lot of work into cleaning up copyright violations is a good indicator of POV-pushing is ridiculous and downright offensive to anyone who does copyright work.  Hut 8.5  18:32, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Please don’t mischaracterize what I wrote. For that, I think I am rather done with you today. Nowhere did I make an “accusation of bad faith”; POV-pushing comes not from bad faith but from a bias one can’t see in oneself. As for the personal enmity between those two and Mkativerata’s flippant and arrogant responses to Geo Swan when he was asked to explain himself: that is there for all to see in black & white on his talk page. You may make of the evidence in any way you like, but the evidence speaks to me clearly enough and I respectively disagree with you. Greg L (talk) 18:41, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This endless mudflinging about Mkativerata's motives needs to stop, Greg L. There is no sign s/he has bee editing in the PI area in any kind of one-sided way.   He was and is in the right about removing obvious copyright violations and plagiarism, whatever the topic.    Please stop, as you have been requested already. --Slp1 (talk) 18:41, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

The copyvio problem has become more pressing recently with the discovery of more and more serial copyright violators who previously had an excellent reputation. I don't know how many make an appropriate effort to help in the clean-up. Normally we only learn about those who are unwilling or unable to do that. I wonder if WP:COPYVIO is still up to date. I would prefer a clarification that editors who contaminated Wikipedia on a large scale will be blocked, and that the they can only be unblocked as part of a deal. And that such a deal will require that any other contributions to the project and its community must not exceed a certain percentage of their clean-up contributions until the problem is essentially fixed. Hans Adler 10:45, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Endorsing Tim's block - I would have done the same. Disappointing, as Epeefleche and an I had a conversation, followed up with a convo with Moonriddengirl, and we thought we had worked it all out.  And I don't think GregL has helped his case one bit, unfortunately.  Hopefully an agreement can still be reached - indef is after all not infinity - but Epeefleche would have to up the cleanup, and dial down the complaints. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:14, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * For filing frivolous, retaliatory complaints, and sticking with them beyond all reason, Epeefleche should be banned from complaining about any editors cleaning up his copyvio messes or otherwise obstructing their work. GregL needs to disengage from this area.  His involvement is seriously unhelpful. Jehochman Talk 14:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed. A community topic ban might allow Epeefleche to be unblocked and voluntarily add himself as a party to the new ARBCOM case I have created.--Peter cohen (talk) 14:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree with block, at least until Epeefleche agrees to change his/her behaviour. Editors who severely and persistently violated copyright over a long period of time and on a large scale should only be allowed to edit if they acknowledge the scope of the problem and assist in cleaning it up. Not only has Epeefleche not done this, but he's actively harassing people who do the tedious, severely backlogged task of cleaning up. This is unacceptable.  Hut 8.5  14:02, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, after looking through everything, I would have to support the indefblock placed, as it's become evident that not only are there more copyright violations than we originally thought, but Epee does not seem to want to fix them. These are serious issues for someone who has written a lot of articles. They're well-referenced so this is an easier situation for us and him to fix, but the problems are there. Wizardman  Operation Big Bear 18:09, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think I actually agree with that, Wizardman. The sentiments of those here who support the block could be summarized as Why let him edit anywhere he wants when he shows no interest in helping on all the copyvios in his previous work? So I would propose that the community formally give him a probationary offer: That he can take any of the articles he has had a hand in and and clean it up in his userspace. Perhaps he can create User:Epeefleche/TK sandbox, fix the Targeted killing article there, and offer it up for pasting into articlespace. Since he had 200 citations in the Targeted killing article and knows it well, I suspect that is the one he would be most motivated to fix and do a good job of it. Then the community can go from there with how to further handle his probation. Greg L (talk) 18:23, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "I don't see the copyvio that is claimed as warranted deletion of this article. Would it be possible for you to indicate to the community which specific sentences you believe are copyvio?" (Opening sentence by Epeefleche in the section (s)he created called "Copyvio claim" on Talk:Targeted killing)). How can you read that and then suggest that (s)he should take the lead in recreating this article when (s)he is either being disingenuous (as (s)he was in your words "someone who was the shepherding author of an article" and therefore ought/must know better than anyone else what parts were copied), or is too stupid to understand the problem? As you are clearly in favour of such an article -- personally as you know but others may not, I think it is a POV fork of assassination and opposed its creation -- (see RFC on creation). Why don't you write a new short clean version of the article that you and others (including Epeefleche when/if the block is removed) can then expand? -- PBS (talk) 01:31, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I also agree with this block. There is the long history of copyright violations, but really what is untenable is the disruption, filibustering, and harassment Epeefleche (and his mates) launches upon editors or administrators who dare to critique his editing. Mkativerata is the last in a long line. If it comes to any unblock, while I think it could be helpful if Epeefleche had to help out, my fear is that it will simple cause more problems that it solves. It may just be best to topic ban him from the whole area. In addition, I'd suggest being very careful about the terms of any unblock: I believe that when he was last unblocked from an indef, for canvassing, the unblocking admin came to regret the reduced terms that were finally agreed upon.. Slp1 (talk) 18:41, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Good (albeit unfortunate) block. His contributions are on balance very positive, but disputes are rarely handled cooperatively; and copyright infringement is an area where cooperation can't be considered optional. As in this case, the meatpuppetry that inevitably occurs in any dispute he's in always complicates things, though I don't know who is the actual meatpuppeteer. causa sui (talk) 18:45, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Per Don't take the bait, I won't. I always speak my mind and do what I think is the right thing. Period. Happy editing.Greg L (talk) 18:52, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems there are two kinds of 'editing restrictions' being proposed: (1) a requirement to help clean the copyvios; (2) a requirement to disengage from the CCI altogether (I think that is the thrust of Jehochman and Slp1's comments). In my view, (2) is preferable: it would be nice and all for Epeefleche to help with the CCI, but he keeps being told how he can help over and over again and keeps on filibustering. The only way for Epeefleche to return to editing constructively is to just draw a line under everything he contributed before December 2010. I recognise that my advocacy of (2) will probably be seen be some as a way to avoid any scrutiny of my actions on the CCI. But large-scale removals are done by blanking, which necessarily involves review by another administrator. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:29, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Mkat, going by the interaction between the two of you at the Ilan Berman article, and here on ANI, I am sorry but I see epee as the one who made the most effort to be collegial, and I see you as doing a very disappointing job of explaining what was wrong with his attempts to provide alternate wording. You threatened to block him, multiple times -- without offering any clue as to what behavior he should avoid to avoid the block.  That struck me as extremely unfair.  And I am frankly very surprised to see you imply you tried to help him "over and over again".  Geo Swan (talk) 22:43, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with the block. CCIs are always tough on the individual targeted - let's face it, it's an accusation of dishonesty, and to have others going through and potentially deleting one's hard work is always going to be difficult for the person involved. However, there is a right way and a wrong way to approach such an issue and Epeefleche's approach – filibustering and obstruction – is most definitely wrong. A block was absolutely necessary to get him out of the way so that the CCI can proceed. What particularly troubles me about this case, though, is the way Epeefleche has engaged in overtly Islamophobic ideological conflict at the same time by accusing Mkativerata of "pro-Islamic" ideological bias in the CCI. It's one thing to disagree over content with an editor carrying out a CCI, but it's quite another to make seemingly baseless accusations against the CCI reviewer. In my opinion, if Epeefleche is to be allowed to resume editing he must retract and apologise to Mkativerata, as well as staying out of anything to do with the CCI other than responding to direct requests for information. Prioryman (talk) 20:53, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Should have been blocked ages ago for the I-P topic area tendentiousness and unrepentant battleground'ing. Plagiarism is a bright line that thankfully can't be ignored, and is why we have seen only a handful of fans and supporters protest the block, rather than the usual droves that show up to these things. Tarc (talk) 21:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If there are copyright violation and plagiarism issues, than there are no extenuating circumstances that matter. No overriding inside baseball concerns about admin behavior. No deals to be made. None. This is an encyclopedia project, and will not put up with that kind of dishonesty. Any other discussion is irrelevant at best and deliberate obfuscation at worst.--Tznkai (talk) 21:18, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree that we need to be that extreme on it. I don't support immediate zero tolerance.  But a sustained effort to interfere with or object to cleanups by the original party exceeds allowable behavior.  A week ago I didn't believe this case was sufficiently sustained to warrant a block or ban; by today, I believe it has.  This is not unrecoverable but actual coperation going forwards would be an absolute unblock criteria as far as I am concerned, and i would reblock after any unblock if cooperation was not very open and constructive.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:54, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Unblock and allow Epeefleche to defend himself. I would like to hear his input to this thread. This forum is taking place without the input of the editor that you and I are speaking in reference to. I think that User:Causa sui has earned chastisement for peremptorily impugning those who would defend Epeefleche with his comment "…I don't know who is the actual meatpuppeteer". That is uncalled for, counterproductive, petty, unfounded, in poor taste, etc. Bus stop (talk) 01:04, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I presume it to be a reference to Greg L's slavish support of Epeefleche. I don't think it's a case of meatpuppetry, more likely one of ideological sympathy. While Causa sui might have overstated the case, I don't think there's much doubt that Greg L's contributions to this discussion have been unhelpful. Indeed, as someone said above, they have probably harmed Epeefleche's case overall. If Greg L really wants to help, he should get involved in clearing up the mess that Epeefleche has left behind. Prioryman (talk) 07:37, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Quoting Prioryman: more likely one of ideological sympathy: You nailed it. It is not slavish support for Epeeflech per se, but slavish support for principles and wiki-procedures that could be improved. Regarding If Greg L really wants to help, he should get involved in clearing up the mess that Epeefleche has left behind, Greg L doesn’t want to help with tedious copyvio issues of someone else’s making; I edit for intellectual stimulation by working on subjects I don’t know enough about. I have over a half-dozen patents on fuel cell technology and know PEM fuel cells inside and out. Yet, I haven’t even skimmed our Fuel cell article to see how many errors it has because I have no interest in being reverted by a 16-year-old kid who quoted Popular Mechanics and how “30 percent of autos by 2016 will be powered by fuel cells.” People would be utterly amazed at the misinformation RSs regurgitate from fuel cell companies who are in a perpetual search of the next government grant. In short, what articles I edit are selected to achieve a ‘two-fer” objective: 1) improve an article I found to be lacking and which didn’t provide me sufficient information, and 2) learn in the process of upgrading the article. No one other than Epeefleche should have to clean up Epeefleche’s copyvio problems. Frankly, the very first time he complained about how others were going about it, I would have told him “Tell you what Epee; I’ll give you 48 hours to clean up all the copyvio issues on [yadda yadda] article and if you fail to do so, I’ll do it and you can hold your peace if you are displeased with how others clean up your plagiarism.” But I also have issues with admins who I perceive as being *inelegant* in the way they deal with editors in situations like this.  Greg L (talk) 21:55, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Unblock conditions?
User:Epeefleche is requesting an unblock, User talk:Epeefleche. I've made a proposal to him on the conditions under which I would be comfortable with his unblock and wanted to bring them here for review to see how others feel. Even if he agreed to my proposal, I would not unblock him without strong consensus here. It's a wall of text, but the terms I think might work are as follows (copied from his userpage): "I would support your unblock if you would pledge to stop slowing progress (1) by challenging (openly or by insinuation) the existence of the problem and/or (2) by casting aspersions on the competence or motivations of the people doing the work and would instead agree to focus (if you work on the CCI at all) on rewriting content from scratch. Alternatively, I would support your unblock if you were topic banned from the CCI - which would mean staying away from any article tagged as a problem until after it has been resolved and from the people who tag them in any venue. Because I'm never comfortable with silencing people, I would be okay in that case with your having one acceptable person to whom you can email, agreed upon by the community at ANI. This will avoid you becoming a target of an actual vendetta if somebody should choose to take advantage of your vulnerable position. Email to one neutral, designated person rather than on-Wiki communication would eliminate any unintended disruption, as public aspersions on a CCI volunteer in any venue may have a 'chilling' effect especially if others are influenced by your accusations. If the person chosen for you to contact agrees there is an issue, he or she may raise it in an appropriate venue." What do you think? Are you comfortable with (a) both, (b) either or (c) neither? :) If (c), do you have ideas of your own about how we can best get him back to work on Wikipedia and eliminate the problem? Or reasons why we shouldn't do that at all? --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:00, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it's clear from the above that he's not going to cooperate wither the CCI, but rather sabotage it. So topic banning him from all his CCI-listed articles seems the only practical alternative to a total ban or indef block. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 16:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I also support the topic ban as a first choice; I support the unblock conditions as the second choice. Kww's words here are telling. As I've said before (sorry) I don't think Epeefleche's involvement with this CCI is going to work at all. The terms of the topic ban would be crystal clear: (1) don't edit or comment about an article tagged by a CCI participant until the tagging has been resolved (eg by blanking or deletion removal of the content concerned or deletion of the page); (2) no complaints or questions, anywhere, addressed to or about any editor working on the CCI. That is silencing, but (a) there is no right to free speech on this project; (b) it's plainly necessary in the circumstances; and (c) MRG has proposed an off-wiki mechanism by which Epeefleche can complain as a last resort if he really feels CCI participants are taking advantage of the topic ban. --Mkativerata (talk) 18:25, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Can I clarify here if by "blanking or deletion" you mean actual removal of the content as opposed to placement of the {{subst:copyvio}} template? The terms blanking and deletion have both been used to refer to the placement of the template and to the ultimate resolution after the week at CP, and I just want to make sure that we're all on the same page in the conversation. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:34, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed, I hope! In addition, I should also make it clear that any participant in this CCI should retain the prerogative of not tagging an article but instead just excising the problematic content him or herself. For isolated sentences and paragraphs, that's much more efficient than blanking, tagging and listing at CP. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:39, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:31, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Epeefleche is not at his computer and is unable to post to Wikipedia but has emailed me the following, with permission to post it on Wikipedia:
 * As I indicated to you, Elen, and M in our discussion on your talkpage even before the block, I'm happy to assist in the CCI in whatever manner (if any) others see fit.


 * I agree to whichever of your suggestions is deemed preferable. And whichever it is--I agree, as before, that the copyvios should be deleted (if not fixed). I think that your safeguard makes sense as well, for the reasons you state.

I've also placed this at his talk page. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:31, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd support the topic ban suggestion as a first choice. I'm a bit nervous of the current wording as it suggests that Epeefleche can make comments and ask questions after the material has been removed from article.  This appears to be leaving a door open to disruption and arguing after, if not during, an article's cleanup. I'm also a bit concerned about the possibility of vicarious disruption by Epeefleche's supporters, but can't see an easy or appropriate way of dealing with this at present. --Slp1 (talk) 23:39, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The trouble as I see it MG with your proposal is that it has lots of wriggle room for someone who has a mind not to act in good faith. We need the unblock condition to be binary and simple so that if any actions result in a new ANI it crystal clear to everyone (including Epeefleche), whether Epeefleche has or has not breached his/her unblock condition.


 * So basically I agree with what Slp1 is saying but I added one more condition when I wrote the following on Epeefleche's talk page in response to MG's proposal "I think it Epeefleche is to be unblocked he should not go any where near the articles that are being clean up, (s)he has been given months and months to do that and has been found wanting. I also think that there should be a moratorium on this editor creating or recreating any articles until there is a consensus at ANI that (s)he can do so. I suggest this because there is no evidence that Epeefleche has had an epiphany but rather the (s)he is mouthing platitudes under the duress of a block."


 * I also re-asked some questions which I had put to him/ before the most important of which is to clarify (her/his gnomic comment on this page), and explain at what date did (s)he become familiar with "copyvio rules?" I think this is important, because from the comments of some editors on this page this point is not clear, and if Epeefleche is found to have committed a blatant copyvio after that date, then the block should be reimposed immediately while an ANI decides what to do. -- PBS (talk) 00:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * My experience with Epeefleche after releasing his previous indefinite block was that I regretted unblocking him. One of his first actions was to demonstrate that he didn't understand that the actions that lead to his block were a problem.&mdash;Kww(talk) 14:55, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Why is this being made so complex? It could be solved as simply as providing Epeefleche with a list (it can even be the start of a list) of articles that have been proven to contain at least one plagiarized passage without attribution—not a mere list of the article’s he’s created. Then the community imposes a condition for being an unrestricted editor: He must correct one article per week. If he can’t do at least that, it seems perfectly reasonable to have him indef-blocked. It makes no sense to me that others should have to go clean up his mess; particularly if Epeefleche is then going to complain about how the editor most interested in fixing his articles isn’t going about the clean-up properly. This approach will bifurcate the intermingling of copyvio cleanup with POV-pushing issues; the two are distinctly different matters where the latter one resolves itself on its own with time via the normal tug-of war between editors debating via edit summaries and actual discussion (*sound of audience gasp*) on discussion pages and arrival at a consensus. Greg L (talk) 23:39, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Greg L You are more familiar than me with this case, but didn't that boat sail back in December 2010 when the good ship Contributor copyright investigations/Epeefleche was launched? AFAICT, at the start of the investigation a complete list was generated, and there was a lull in the investigation into that list between January 21 and 17 November during which time Epeefleche could have cleaned up all the articles where (s)he had breached copyright. If Epeefleche had been done that, then there would have been nothing for anyone else to find and delete and the investigation would have been closed months ago without a trip to ANI which Epeefleche initiated. -- PBS (talk) 14:09, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The problem isn't cleaning up articles which are known to be copyright violations. That isn't very difficult. The problem is finding the articles which are copyright violations in the first place. That's the only area where Epeefleche may have special expertise because s/he may be able to remember if the text was copied from anywhere. Besides if something is known to be violating copyright then we have to remove it as soon as possible, not have it sit around for months until Epeefleche deals with it as part of the quota.  Hut 8.5  00:55, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

A word on plagiarism and copyright
Been following this. I find much of the discussion on Wikipedia about plagiarism to largely miss the forest for the trees, to be a playground for discussing whether "the rules" have been broken and arcane bits of law few here actually understand, rather than starting from the perspective of the overall health and quality of the encyclopedia articles you presume to be writing. George Herbert's rather charming belief that plagiarism isn't that big a deal expressed here (and elsewhere from memory) is emblematic of the mindset. I'm going to ignore copyright entirely (not because it isn't important, just because it isn't, in and of itself, relevant to the quality of encyclopedia articles). The real problem with plagiarism (whether a law has been broken or not) is that it almost always skews the tone and focus of an article. A newspaper article, written in a particular place by a particular person at a particular time (for instance) is suddenly placed in an omniscient, encyclopedic voice. The plagiarizer (epeefleche is clearly a serial violator, though far from the only one), never does a thorough literature review of a topic, takes a step back, then begins writing with an eye towards what consensus views are, where the controversies/disagreements lie, an overall holistic approach. Using public domain sources in this way is as bad for accuracy and quality of articles as using copyrighted sources. Sometimes the skewed article is simply the by-product of bauble-collecting exercises like DYK (the author doesn't really care -- or understand -- that the article is crap) and sometimes, as is the case with epeefleche, it's a byproduct of the fact that they're here to push a particular point of view (I cast an eye over the dreadful little targeted killing article before it was deleted). They are, in fact, trying to privilege some sources over others, to take a narrow and controversial slice of a topic and place it in that omniscient encyclopedia voice. It is this problem that volunteer editors should be focusing on as a primary issue, though of course that won't be popular because it requires editorial discretion and background knowledge. Much easier to ask the narrow question of "was copyright violated" and deal with nothing else. Deal with the copyright problems by all means. But don't kid yourself that even begins to clean up the real mess.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Is epeefleche a serial violator of copyright? If I have understood what he has written here he has acknowledged that he was a serial violator, early in his wikipedia career, but that he hasn't been a violator in years, hasn't been for violating copyright for tens of thousands of edits.  Several people have drawn our attention to instances where he did violate copyright.  But if all these instances are to edits he made a long time ago, prior to the CCI investigation into his editing practices, I think it would be best to stop referring to him as a serial violator of copyright, and refer to him as a reformed serial violator of copyright.  Is his self-description correct?  Or has he continued to demonstrate an on-going pattern of copyright violations, after a CCI investigation made clear his past edits were problematic?  Geo Swan (talk) 22:06, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This is a redherring, but anyway. Geo Swan, you yourself have been looking at the Targeted killing article, and know that large chunks, if not the whole article, is a series of copyright violating very close paraphrases.  It was created 13 months ago. The incident that launched the CCI occured 11 months ago.  Epeefleche's claim that he did this only early in his career and hasn't for years, is simply not true. He continued on with his copy and paste with a few minor changes approach - despite warnings from me and Moonriddengirl in February and March 2010 - until the CCI started in December 2010. After which, I gather, there was a significant change.
 * On the original topic, I'd agree with Bali ultimate, that there are other major issues here besides the copyright. Ones that unfortunately WP is very poor at sorting out. --Slp1 (talk) 23:31, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I did look at the targeted killing article, and the five excisions mkat made, as "close paraphrasing", prior to nominating the article for deletion, as containing too many copy violated passages. The article did contain passages that violated out copyright policy.  And I looked at the article's revision history, thinking about confirming or refuting whether epee had originally been responsible for those copyright violations.  Maybe there is a tool that can trace who is reponsible for a particular passage -- *-if so I am not familiar with that tool.  I decided not to do that check.  The revision history is long.  If, for the sake of argument, epee did introduce the copyvio material, but did so prior to the CCI when he was brought to an understanding of copyvio, is his responsibility for those copyvios relevant in a discussion for blocking him in November 2011?  While epee made the largest contribution to the article, five other contributors made 75 edits between them.  Do you know that they weren't responsible for the introduction of some of the copyvio material into the article.  Geo Swan (talk) 17:56, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is a tool. It is called  WP:WIKIBLAME.  All of the copyright infringing material noted by mkativerata was introduced by Epeefleche here.  But this is another red herring.  Epeefleche has not been blocked for introducing the material; he has been blocked for disrupting the cleanup of the violations. And frankly, you are not helping very much either, because you are asking other people prove to you things that you could figure out for yourself with a bit of time and effort. --Slp1 (talk) 18:32, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * To be fair to GeoSwan, it's important that people making these kinds of accusations have done their homework and can show evidence to support them. The informal and disorganized nature of the AN/I "dispute resolution" format (if you can call it that) seems to be a benefit in that it is not bogged down by bureaucratic procedures. But it's a double-edged sword in that the disorganized format means there's no predetermined high-visibility area where petitioners can lay out the evidence and where everyone else can expect to find it, as there is at WP:RFC/U. tl;dr: The price of a quick, to-the-point and informal dispute resolution process is that you sometimes have to repeat yourself. causa sui (talk) 18:57, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Slp1, I spent a bit of time and effort", I spent far more than a bit of time and effort looking into this. I am not at fault, have nothing to apologize for, for not being familiar with WP:WIKIBLAME.  Since you have used it, doesn't it show that all the copyright violations epee was responsible for were prior to the CCI investigation?  As for what I should or shouldn't be able to figure out from the record -- I don't see the record supporting what you and others have asserted, namely, "Epeefleche ... has been blocked for disrupting the cleanup of the violations."   When I look at Mkat's repeated unexplained excisions on November 17th, I see Epee spent an hour making good faith attempts to address Mkat's concerns.  This was not disruption on Epee's part.   Every contributor, from the barest newbie, making their first edit, to the most experienced administrator, with a million edits under their belt, is under an obligation to hold themselves accountable for their edits.  None of us should make an edit we don't think we can explain.   Another thing the record shows is that Mkat was unable or unwilling to offer a meaningful explanation for their excisions on November 17th.  I suggest the record shows Mkat's attempts to explain the excisions since then have been contradictory.  I remain concerned that their reasoning is not based on policy.   Another thing the record shows is that -- instead of supplying a meaningful, helpful explanation Mkat left a very troubling threat to block Epee.  We entrust administrators with certain extra powers -- to be used accountably, responsibly, and whenever possible in an open and transparent manner.  Mkat's threat to block failed to be accountable and responsible on two grounds: first, mkat failed to be explicit on what actions Epee should avoid to avoid the block; second Mkat failed to point to the policy that would have authorized the block.  Frankly, I am very concerned that would have justified blocking Epee for making an additional good faith attempt to supply alternate wording that wasn't a "close paraphrase".   So far none of Epee's behavior seems disruptive to me.  What should a good faith contributor do when they encounter an administrator who issues vague threats to block them, threats they seem reluctant to explain?  I suggest initiating a collegial note on ANI is among the options.   I understand that CCI volunteers are frustrated with Epee.  But, I don't agree that anyone has offered any diffs to demonstrate that Epee has disrupted the CCI process.  Haven't all the problematic diffs offered here dated back to prior to the CCI investigation?  As such I suggest they are irrelevant if Epee is complying with our policies now.  I don't agree that the questions Epee raised about Mkat's exisions at Ilan Berman were disruptive.  Rather, I think it is important that the validity of those excisions be explained, and Epee's questions about the excisions, both on the article and here at ANI were completley justified.   To the extent the block imposed on Epee is due to those participating here taking at face value Mkat's assertions that Epee's questions about his or her actions were disruptive I suggest that this was an invalid, unjustified block.  Geo Swan (talk) 17:24, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your thoughtful post, Geo Swan. That precisely summarizes my take on this. Greg L (talk) 01:06, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


 * GS I think you are confusing copyright violations with Epeefleche tactics over the clean up process, when you write "Haven't all the problematic diffs offered here dated back to prior to the CCI investigation". Epeefleche had most of this year to clean up his/her own mess and chose not to do so. Since another editor has started to investigate the list, rather than co-operating, the tactics Epeefleche has employed is to generate fear, uncertainty and doubt over the good faith of the person who has restarted the clean up process after a lull of 10 months. I am not sure why you think differences are needed to show Epeefleche's behaviour. Epeefleche's initiation of this section "Deletions by involved editor under claim of "close paraphrases"; Mkativerata" is one example, another is the initiation of the the section Talk:Targeted killing. Both section headings are indicative of the tone and content of Epeefleche's comments on the clean-up process. This behaviour seems to be a continuation of the same tactics shown when the case was first opened. That is why Epeefleche's current block is in place.
 * As to your second point: By its structure the CCI investigation only looks at edits from the time that the diffs are added to the CCI investigation, therefore the process will only show up diffs prior to the start of the CCI investigation. At the moment there is an assumption of good faith that Epeefleche has stopped adding copyright material, (in this section no one has mentioned that they have done a systematic survey of Epeefleche's edits since the historical survey was done in January (If anyone has then it would be helpful if they would share their findings). If it had been shown that Epeefleche had over the last few months systematically breached copyright through close paraphrasing, or had blatantly copied text from copyright sources, then the debate would not be on what terms Epeefleche could resume editing, there would almost certainly be a consensus for a long block. -- PBS (talk) 01:06, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Geo Swan, I'm going to try to take Causa sui's advice that information may have to be repeated on this board, so here goes. You say that you "don't see the record supporting what you and others have asserted, namely, "Epeefleche ... has been blocked for disrupting the cleanup of the violations."".  The evidence is above in the section  entitled "Request for a block", including mkativerata's request, which includes several diffs, and the comments that following including Tim Song's comment on blocking "Blocked indef. Any admin may unblock when they are satisfied that Epeefleche will no longer disrupt the CCI."  It is also clear from Epeefleche's blocklog and from the  block notice on Epeefleche's talkpage. S/he was not been blocked for the copyvios or plagiarism. S/he was not blocked for disputing mkativarata's edit on Ilan Berman.  S/he has not blocked for bringing this to ANI.  S/he was blocked for 4 days later for failing to hear what experienced, uninvolved editors were telling and particularly forthe actions on Talk:Targeted killing and Talk:Muslim Arab Youth Association.  The block was supported 14 editors (including multiple administrators and one arbitrator) and opposed by 4, including yourself. You may not find Epeefleche's behaviour disruptive, but the bulk of editors clearly do. --Slp1 (talk) 14:35, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Proposal to reduce confounding and clarify potential copyvios
Proposal: Mkativerata is directed to make separate diffs for each potential copyvio found, and to include in each such diff the words "potential copyvio".

Rationale: This proposal is in reference to this diff. The associated edit comment is, "Rm a couple of close paraphrases and fix a couple of quotes."
 * 1) There was no functional need for Mkativerata to merge these four edits together.
 * 2) Identifying the material as a "close paraphrase" has left ambiguous if other editors should consider the material to be a potential copyvio, or a non-copyvio close paraphrase.
 * 3) There are different copyvio cases to be argued for the two different close paraphrases. The second of the close paraphrases has been identified as a close paraphrase of a close paraphrase, and stuart.jamieson, in supporting Hobit, states regarding the second close paraphrase, "The material being paraphrased...does not begin to approach the threshold of originality required by law to assert a copyvio."  So it would have helped the analysis had the second close paraphrase not been combined with the first close paraphrase.
 * 4) Here is an effort by Geo Swan to sort out the confusion that has resulted from the confounded diff. Unscintillating (talk) 01:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose as it would needlessly slow down and complicate the CCI and is out of keeping with CCI practice to begin with. The presumption with editors in Epeefleche's position is that all of their content is problematic. CCIs are intended in part to avoid having to invoke the provision of Copyright violations that would result in the presumptive deletion of everything he's added by at least making an effort to identify when articles are problematic. Standard practice on finding copied content from a CCI contributor in any such article is to assume that the rest of the content he added to the article should also be rewritten, not to say "Oh, he copied these four sentences. Let's see if the other two are okay." If edit summaries are confusing to other editors, a better summary might be "removed per Contributor copyright investigations/Epeefleche" as this includes in its second paragraph directions for contributors who want to help fix the issue or are confused as to what the issue might be. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:54, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

'Oppose WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY especially the mention of instruction creep. The CCI project has a huge backlog and jumping through hoops  is lower priority than fixing theft of copyright. Of course, if those who support this proposal were to show as much interest in dealing with the backlog as complaining about those doing the work, the CCI project might eventually be able to afford the luxury of being able to converse with obstructive POV-pushers. Epeefleche had plenty of opportunities to help fix a problem of which (s)he was the primary cause but seemed more interested in making trouble.--Peter cohen (talk) 17:26, 27 November 2011 (UTC) Oppose The imposition of this sort of petty restriction (which will get pushed onto other editors as well) will merely discourage anyone from trying to clear up problems in case they too get attacked as well by the original offender or their supporters.Nigel Ish (talk) 17:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Semi-support I agree with the underling premiss behind this proposal. But I think it amounts to arguing about where best to put the tourniquet after someone steps on the land mine; I’d rather steer clear of the land mine. I think there are better ways to avoid the conflict and the resultant wikidrama, and I’ve proposed it, above. Epeefleche made a mess and has left it to others to fix it all. IMHO, the proper way to get on with what is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby for us all is to make the restoration of Epeefleche’s editing privileges contingent upon his cleaning up his past articles at a certain rate—perhaps one a week or something like that.  Greg L (talk) 02:29, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose requiring editors working on massive CCIs in a massive CCI backlog to jump through bureaucractic hoops. Maybe Unscintillating can try doing some CCI work to see how unworkable this idea is. --Mkativerata (talk) 03:01, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose LOL—as if the CCI people don't have enough work to do. Johnuniq (talk) 03:39, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose Per MRG and John. causa sui (talk) 04:04, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose Per MRG, John and my minor experience (compared to those such as MRG) working on copyvio issues. R OBERT M FROM LI &#124; TK/CN  04:29, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Unworkable bureaucratic wonkery. 04:42, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment So is it fair to say (with the exception of MRG who has commented regarding the edit comment) that those opposed are in favor of confounded edits and ambiguous edit comments?  Unscintillating (talk) 04:56, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's fair to say that this isn't a question that should be dignified with an answer. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:17, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose pointless complication of CCI work. The original edit summary was quite clear.  MRG's suggestion of linking to the CCI might help; some editors might view it as a sort of branding, but it might be worth noting that the removal is happening under CCI rules.  But the notion that identifying a copyright problem ought to open a lengthy negotiation over incremental fixes to the text is not just an unreasonable burden on CCI investigators; it also won't fix the copyright problem.  Filling the history with a series of small steps from the original text to an ostensibly different version merely records the proof that the text is a derived work.  The only way to fix it is to remove the text and write a replacement from scratch.  (Nor is it reasonable to expect a CCI investigator to do the second part of that.)  Kanguole 12:43, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose as a needless complication for people trying to get this work done and counter to existing policy and practice.  Hut 8.5  17:23, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Trying to comment on this proposal in detail might not be good for my blood pressure, so I won't. Hans Adler 17:32, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Deletions by involved editor under claim of "close paraphrases"; Mkativerata
A colleague, Mkativerata, who is an involved administrator in respect of the Israel-Palestinian conflict as defined by WP:ARBPIA, has today deleted variations of 2 sentences in an ARBPIA bio of Ilan Berman (3 times in half an hour). Claiming that they are "close paraphrases". The 2 sentences were edited three times to seek to address his claims, and additional refs added.

Whether or not he may have been correct initially, certainly by his most recent deletion IMHO there was no merit to his claim. I'm concerned with the aggressiveness of his deletions, without talkpage discussion, especially given the ARBPIA aspect of this. I've myself opened up discussion of the issue on the article's talkpage, but not received any response there.

Perhaps an admin can keep an eye on this matter? I'm concerned that it is spiraling. I'm not asking for any other action as to Mkat. Full disclosure: In the past I've communicated concern to this editor about his behavior, and have felt that he responded aggressively and sought to exact retribution inappropriately for my having having voiced my view, so I am hoping that this is not a continuation of that, and that I will not suffer from retribution from him. Many thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:59, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Epeefleche is the subject of a long-running CCI that has uncovered a long history of copyright violations. I'm working through the CCI and I'm not going to be distracted by obstructionism. Working on a CCI requires the deletion of substantive amounts of a contributor's work. And I'm not going to be bullied out of it. And nor am I going to let the fact that I have declared myself "not uninvolved" in respect of ARBPIA stop me from removing copyright violations, being a non-POV matter. CCI needs whatever help it can get. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:06, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * My noting that you are "an involved administrator in respect of the Israel-Palestinian conflict" as defined by WP:ARBPIA is simply a reflection of what you have yourself indicated. Given the sensitivities in that area, and your being an involved editor, when you delete material such as the above under the claim that it is a copyright violation, and the claim appears baseless, that raises a concern that your "involvement" is an issue.


 * I agree of course that copyright violations should be addressed. Your most recent deletion, certainly, was nothing of the sort.  You also failed to discuss the matter on the talkpage, despite making 3 deletions in half an hour.  When unwarranted deletions are made by  involved editors, that can perhaps be a problem.  Involved editors can always alert other editors when they believe there is a problem, especially if it is not a clear-cut matter--I find it hard to believe that you felt that your last deletion, for example, was a clear-cut copyright violation.  I'm not asking that action be taken against you. I'm simply asking for more admin eyes, as I feel you reacted with aggressive retribution in the past.  Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:23, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * BTW, in the Mkat matter now before ARBCOM, there are assertions of failure to communicate properly as well. As here, I personally don't believe that the asserted failure warrants sanctions.  But perhaps it reflects a pattern.  I do believe that communication is called for by wp:admin, and is important, in instances such as this one.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

If it's possibly a copyright violation, it should be removed immediately pending peer review. There is no suggestion being made that Mkati is using copyright policy to game the system, which would be a problem. This would also be a problem if Mkati were ignoring some discussion that had already taken place, but the petitioner doesn't suggest that is happening. According to the complaint itself there is nothing here requiring administrative action. causa sui (talk) 21:28, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Involved editors can of course delete blatant vandalism. And I would extend that to blatant copyright violations.  Mkat's most recent deletion was certainly nothing of the sort, however -- not a copyvio at all, and certainly not a blatant copyvio.


 * As with involved editors in wp:admin, by analogy, "administrators may have, or may be seen as having, a conflict of interest in disputes they have been a party to or have strong feelings about. Involvement is generally construed very broadly by the community, to include current or past conflicts with an editor ... and disputes on topics". As WP:ADMIN indicates, it is best practice in cases where an administrator may be seen to be involved to pass the matter to another administrator via the relevant noticeboards.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:38, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * This is a stretch. Involvement is construed broadly so that we can discourage administrators from gaming the system to enforce their own positions in content disputes. According to your own account there isn't any reason to believe that that is what he is doing, and I don't understand you to be implying that either. If I'm reading you correctly, your argument is strictly procedural. Since it is a much bigger danger to include a copyvio than to remove a non-copyvio, it would be better to convince the interested parties that the edits aren't actually copyvios. Then we could move on. causa sui (talk) 22:15, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Not a stretch at all. WP:ADMIN clearly indicates the concern:  "involved administrators may have, or may be seen as having, a conflict of interest in disputes they have been a party to or have strong feelings about."  Such is the case here.  Repeated deletions, at an article in the ARBPIA content area, by an admittedly involved sysop.  No credible claim of copyvio.  Zero talk page discussion, while making the deletions.  That this is being done in the highly sensitive ARBPIA area heightens concern as to the approach. There's no need to throw around an accusation such as "gaming the system to enforce their own positions", however apt it might be.  Hopefully, the eyes of admins on this will help us avoid future problems.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:51, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think you get it. You violated copyright policies for years. Our policies now allow the "indiscriminate removal" of the information you added during that period. You are fortunate that I am not taking "indiscriminate removal" to the full extent to which it is allowed. Any editor can remove your information -- it has nothing to do with being an administrator, I am not acting as one, but even if I was, I will not hesitate to block you if you continue to disrupt the resolution of your CCI. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Indiscriminate removal should mean being fairly liberal in removing copyvios that are discovered from Epeefleche's edits, it does not mean removing information Epeefleche wrote just for the sake that he wrote it. That is disruptive. Silver  seren C 16:17, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, it does mean that. Policy is that "If contributors have been shown to have a history of extensive copyright violation, it may be assumed without further evidence that all of their major contributions are copyright violations, and they may be removed indiscriminately. See Contributor copyright investigations." --Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Basically, once things reach the point of a CCI, all contributions by an editor are to be assumed copyvio unless proven otherwise. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That seems like it could be very disruptive though, especially when you're considering articles that other users have likely worked on and expanded afterwards as well. Silver  seren C 21:26, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This isn't a matter of "assuming copyvios". We are talking about Mkat's deletions yesterday -- years (and 50-80,000 edits?) after I wasn't familiar with our copyvio rules.  And the material Mkat deleted here was by no means a copyvio.  His assertion to the contrary notwithstanding.  Mkat wasn't "assuming" anything.  He looked at the language and the source and made a completely unfounded assertion, without tp discussion, in his COI area.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:48, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * In that case, uploading copyvios is what is disruptive. That subsequent editors then rework the copyrighted content (making the Wikimedia Foundation a distributor of an unlicensed derivative work) that then has to be removed is disruption caused by the person who uploaded the copyvio, not the person who removed it. A lot of thought has gone into this and the legal implications of unlicensed derivatives combined with the high ratio of (effort to detect copyvios:effort to add copyvios) make wholesale removal of legally dubious content a cost of doing business around here. causa sui (talk) 21:41, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The issue here, above, involved Mkat hiding behind the dubious assertion of copyvio. I doubt an objective editor would find this -- his most recent deletion -- to be a copyvio.  When an editor deletes material under such a dubious claim of copyvio, that could easily be seen as disruptive if it is part of a problem.  He also failed to use the talkpage for discussion -- or even respond to discussion opened on the talkpage.  That is also not good practice where one is deleting material three times in an hour.  This is compounded by the fact that this matter is in the ARBPIA area, where sensitivities are heightened.  And, of course, it is further compounded where (as here) the sysop is without question an involved editor.  I've no problem at all with real copyvios being struck.  But that's not what was at issue here at all, as you can see if you look at the diff provided.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:39, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * My initial concern was prompted by the fact that Mkat: a) deleted material 3 times in half an hour; b) with a wholly dubious claim of copyvio (see his most recent deletion), c) failed to communicate via talkpage; d) in the sensitive ARBPIA area; e) where Mkat is an involved editor; f) without modeling best behavior as called for by wp:admin. I raised the issue here so others could keep an eye on this, and ensure that it does not inflate, as I've felt he has lashed out in the past when I've disagreed with him.  I agree with Silver that Mkat's edits here were leaning towards the disruptive.


 * Mkat today appears to be reacting to my having disagreed with him, by seeking retribution. As background, when I first started at wikipedia -- many years ago -- I followed what I saw as wp practice; practice that was not in compliance with our rules.  Not knowing our rules in this area, I did indeed make errors at that time, and years ago added some material that should properly be cited, revised, or redacted.  I have years of editing since then, with tens of thousands of edits, and now that I have read our rules I've complied carefully with them.


 * But Mkat -- directly after I disagreed with him yesterday -- has now undertaken to delete in toto some articles I've worked on. Articles of Olympic athletes.  As in this deletion of the Yves Dreyfus article today.  And this deletion of the Vivian Joseph article today I can't see what he deleted, so I don't know whether some level of deletion is appropriate ; it may be.  But certainly, I can't imagine that there is a need to delete such articles of Olympic athletes in toto.  This is just this sort of retribution by Mkat that I was afraid of.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Epeefleche, this is what happens to serial copyright violators. I had to do it to User:Gavin.Collins. If it makes you feel any better, I'll do the next batch of content removal. If you could provide a list of all your copyright violations...but given the volume, I doubt you'd remember. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:59, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Elen -- as we discussed elsewhere, though it goes beyond what you were requesting above, I'm happy to and have now volunteered to look at old articles I created, and delete or fix copyvios where I see them. Hopefully that will not only help fix them up, but also allow us to focus us on the issues that prompted this AN/I.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:08, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This is a very transparent modus operandi: file an ANI report and then claim that any subsequent action is "retribution". Then canvas (for which you've been blocked before) your mates who tried to prevent a CCI being opened under the guise of being neutral (soliciting the uninvolved Yoenit as well ). --Mkativerata (talk) 22:10, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ugh. causa sui (talk) 22:13, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Mkat -- you've not addressed the concerns I raised above about your recent deletions. Instead, you seem to be seeking to deflect the discussion.  Weren't you an involved editor, deleting material multiple times, the last time (at least) clearly not a copyvio (though you claimed it was), who despite being an involved editor failed both to engage in talkpage discussion and to -- given your being an involved editors -- post the issue elsewhere so it could be addressed?  Rather than seeking to engage in character assassination, over what happened years ago (and I don't have clear recollections as to edits from five years ago), and many tens of thousands of edits ago, when I did not know our rules -- let's focus on what you did the past two days.  As to your accusation of canvassing -- are you serious?  Take a look at wp:CANVASS -- that is an absurd and unwarranted accusation -- it does little for the conversation when editors make baseless assertions.  That's not canvassing -- quite the opposite, it is what wp:CANVASS indicates is not canvassing.  As to "M.O." -- let's be clear.  You are the involved editor who under the baseless (certainly, as to the most recent edit) guise of copyvio deleted material in an area you are involved in, refused to use or respond on the talkpage.  And now in retribution, immediately after I disagree with you at a wholly unrelated article, you delete in toto bios of Olympic athletes.  I've no problem as I've indicated with copyvios being redacted.  But the fact that your reaction to someone disagreeing with you is to do this is problematic -- surely, the entire articles are not copyvios, and surely, the fact that athlete x, from country y, won medal z in the Olympics of xxxx is not a copyvio ... yet you delete even that.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:39, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Mkativerata began working on your CCI in January 2011. It's pretty obvious looking at the history of the CCI that what brought him to the article in question was resuming work on your CCI. (<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Contributor_copyright_investigations/Epeefleche&action=history>) He had never touched that article before. It isn't wholly unrelated; it is in fact intrinsically linked to the copyright work -- midway down this section, and he had moved to the next article in that list before you ever disagreed at the other article. Given that Mkativerata's approach to the CCI now is the same as it was in January, it's hard to see this as retribution.


 * I have in one capacity or another worked on most or perhaps all of the CCIs we've completed. Your CCI has not had much progress yet, so you may not know, but blanking articles listed at CCI where any copying is found is common. This flags that concerns have been located. Reviewers are not expected to rewrite content, although of course they can. They've done a service simply by confirming the problem. Once the article is blanked, you have a week at minimum to work on it. (Anyone else may work on a rewrite, too.) If a rewrite that fixes the problem is not proposed, the article may be stubbed or deleted if the content added by the subject of the CCI is extensive. This is standard operating procedure for CCIs. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:15, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Moon -- I think its pretty obvious that, in this edit that kicked off this discussion, Mkat was not doing "CCI work", looking at old edits. But -- hiding behind an unsupportable and baseless assertion of "close paraphrasing", deleting material written that same day, that was nothing of the sort.  Moon -- tell me honestly:  Would you have deleted taht language under the assertion of close paraphrasing yourself?  There have been attempts by some to ignore this issue.  There have been attempts by some to ignore that he was doing this in a COI area, that he was making repeated reverts without any talkpage discussion whatsover (and not even responding to talkpage discussion), and that he was doing this in the sensitive ARBPIA area.  It is perhaps telling that some editors who have commented here in his support have completely ignored these facts, and ignored how this diverges from the strictures of wp:admin as to how an admin should behave.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm going to answer this below, since in substance it ties into your last note. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Come-on people; let’s cease with wikislogans like If it's possibly a copyright violation, it should be removed immediately pending peer review. Even Wikipedia sometimes uses *real evidence* here at ANIs. “Close paraphrases” are not copyright violations by any stretch of the imagination nor do they constitute plagiarism if it they are merely a “close paraphrase”; the litmus test is stricter than that. Anyone who editwars under such pretense has no leg to stand on. Given that Mkativerata is an involved editor, he must abide by the 3RR and edit warring restrictions everyone else are expected to abide by. I note Mkativerata’s fine posturing like how he won’t be “distracted by obstructionism,” but there are only so many ways short pithy English-langauge sentences that are grammatically correct can be constructed. The proper test for whether close paraphrasing must also be accompanied by an in-line citation is paraphrasing very closely. It is irrelevant whether a collaboration between Zeus and Oprah “uncovered a long history of copyright violations” and this caused Mkativerata to role his eyes *extra-extra* far into his forehead, nor does it matter if these two editors hate each others guts, nor does it matter if Mkativerata postures with Great Determination®™© and speaks of overcoming obstructionism; the only relevant issue here in this ANI is whether Mkativerata’s serial reverting has a proper foundation. And that means the basis must pass the “Reasonable Man” test: Let’s see hard evidence one way or another as to whether the deleted text is a paraphrasing “very closely” and is deserving of having an in-line citation. It might also be interesting to see if we have an 800-pound gorilla in the room no one is talking about. Is this about a pro-Israeli editor and an anti-Israeli editor bashing each other, trying to make substantial changes to the message point of the articles, and are trying to justify their actions by hiding behind the apron strings of misapplied policies? Who is *really* doing what, and why? Is there *really* “very close” paraphrasing? If that’s the case (and I see no evidence yet that it is) are Mkativerata’s remedies (wholesale deletion of text along with accompanying citations) best serving the project(?) or is are his edits just POV-pushing under a pretense that can’t be buttressed with real evidence?  Greg L (talk) 23:22, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A close paraphrase of a copyrighted work is indeed a copyright violation as an unauthorized derivative work. T. Canens (talk) 23:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Can be, but not always. Paraphrasing a single sentence is out of a long article is generally fair use and thus not a copyright violation.  A cited statement that is reworded from a single sentence of a source is, AFAIK, generally acceptable in any setting as long as it is cited.  Academics do this all the time (summarizing someone's work by using a close paraphrase of a sentence or two of an abstract is extremely common). Hobit (talk) 00:06, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The blanking Epeefleche describes is typical procedure in copyvio situations, and you need merely to look in the history to find what has been blanked. As to what has been covered over, let's take the Vivian Joseph article. The major source says:

This is what Epeefleche placed in the article

The rest of the Joseph article contains similar copy-and-paste-with-a-few-words-changed blatant copyright violations and its blanking was both utterly necessary and required. If Epeefleche does not want this to happen, then the best course of action would be to actually work with the CCI to correct the problems that s/he admits exists, before they get blanked. A much more productive course of action. --Slp1 (talk) 23:40, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As I said above, "I can't see what he deleted, so I don't know whether some level of deletion is appropriate; it may be. But certainly, I can't imagine that there is a need to delete such articles of Olympic athletes in toto. This is just this sort of retribution by Mkat that I was afraid of. BTW -- can you tell us what date that edit was added?  Also, Mkat -- directly after I disagreed with him yesterday -- has now undertaken to delete completely some articles I've worked on on Olympic athletes.  It stretches the assumption of good faith past the breaking point to think that the timing of his deletions is not accidental, but rather direct retribution.  And it is hard to believe that there is not material capable of saving--without any risk of copvio whatsoever--along the lines of "Joe T is an American boxer who won a gold glove in boxing as a heavyweight at the 1976 Summer Olympics".--Epeefleche (talk) 08:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll try again. Mkativerata has deleted nothing. He has blanked an obvious copyright problem, and the complete history, including when you added the information is still in the history.  Mkativerata has posted it on the WP:CP board where other editors and administrators will, in 5-7 days, process the listing, checking Mkativerata's claim of copyvio and acting upon it or not as they find appropriate.  At any point, you could rewrite the articles to avoid deletion or stubbing.  This was explained to you by Moonriddengirl in January, and it is clearly written clearly on the page blanking the articles. Please stop these disruptive claims of "retribution". You added massive copyright violations, and have done nothing to participate in the clean up.  Somebody else obviously has to do it for you, and you don't get to obstruct the process by attacking the cleaners. --Slp1 (talk) 13:21, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Very good. Thank you for providing the much-needed, hard evidence, Slp1. Indeed, that is not merely the “close paraphrase” that Mkativerata cited for his deletions but passes the “reasonable man” test for being what plagiarism states as requiring an in-line citation (very close paraphrasing). So why doesn’t someone (Epeefleche?) just add in-line citations to the paragraph? This seems to be an edit dispute where the content and thrust of the article is being changed by the deletion. If Epeefleche objects to that, why not add a citation? Greg L (talk) 00:09, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You appear to have a very serious misunderstanding of copyright issues.  In-line citations will not solve this issue in any way. This is neither close paraphrasing nor plagiarism.  It is a very clear cut copyright infringement. May I suggest that you read WP's policies on this matter? WP:COPYVIO.--Slp1 (talk) 00:25, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What I actually understand and what you think I understand are two different things. I’m done with you today, too. Adios. Greg L (talk) 00:47, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Plagiarism is pretty clear that adding an in-line citation to closely paraphrased content taken from non-free sources is not a solution; of "works under copyright that are not available under a compatible free license", it says "They cannot be closely paraphrased for copyright concerns, but must be substantially rewritten in original language." --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:14, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * But ... the edit that Mkat most recently deleted, under the dubious guise of copyvio, wasn't copyvio at all. The fact that he failed to engage in talkpage discussion, and did it in a sensitive area in which he has a conflict of interest, merely compounds the matter -- if there were even a gray area of concern as to copyvio, and for some reason he was opposed to talk page discussion, he could simply have posted his concern on the appropriate noticeboard so that an uninvolved editor could address it.  But the main point is -- Mkat seems to be asserting copyvio where there is none, in an area where he has a conflict of interest.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It is your opinion, not an objective truth, that there were not copyright problems with that revision. Your judgement on copyright matters have to be taken with a pinch of salt, frankly, given your history. --Slp1 (talk) 13:21, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The above-indicated diff speaks for itself. Anyone can read it.  One needn't rely on anyone else's opinion.  And it is an objective fact that he has a conflict of interest in the ARBPIA area -- he admits as much himself.--Epeefleche (talk) 09:57, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

If Greg L thinks close paraphrasing is "not copyright violations by any stretch of the imagination" and indisputably not plagiarism then Greg L's opinion on this matter is to be actively mistrusted. In fact, given the precedent of long-standing editors turning up at ANI and making such statements, it'd be good if someone took a fine-toothed comb to Greg L's longer contributions to confirm that this wasn't indicative of additional copyvio problems. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 23:52, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If you can’t understand what others write, then you ought not spout off as you just did Thumperward. I now know I can ignore the nonsense you write here. Greg L (talk) 00:03, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * An ad hominem response to a serious copyright situation is not helpful. Actively suspicious, in fact. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 00:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Now you are just trying to bait me. Try looking in the mirror next time when it comes to ad hominem responses. You started it with your “actively mistrusted” bit and then jump up and down and cry foul when someone gives you a dose of your own medicine. Then you further tried to bait me by writing it'd be good if someone took a fine-toothed comb to Greg L's longer contributions to confirm that this wasn't indicative of additional copyvio problems, which is straight out of 6th grade. How the hell old are you?? Stop acting childish and attacking others and try reading what they actually write before spouting off with something half-baked; the operative point in my above point was the adjective “very”; that point was obviously lost on you. I’m done responding to you today since I’ve got your number now, fella, and it’s obvious you enjoy personal attacks and baiting (I’d sorta bother with an ANI of my own for that hogwash, but that would be lowering myself to your level). Why not find another venue at which you can be an ornery, miserable cuss? There is ample electronic white space to get the last word. Happy editing and goodbye. Greg L (talk) 00:14, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I've little interest in being drawn into some interminable flame war, especially not with you. My comments were directed at that wider part of the community whose concern with copyright both in the hard legal sense of "we are liable to be sued here" and in the broader sense of "Wikipedia is best avoiding a reputation for a lax attitude to potential copyright issues". Your comment in defense of presented diffs showing at least the latter was troublesome. My experience in this area on WP strongly indicates that editors who make statements defending such things are more likely than average to have made such considerations regarding their own edits in the past. Your response to this was "I now know I can ignore the nonsense you write here", which as a rebuttal is seriously lacking. Forgive me for also not taking you at your word that you're disinterested in having the last word here when my current edit conflict indicates you spent at least five minutes editing this response in order to add the "ornery, miserable cuss" comment, a readaibly blockable personal attack only overlooked because there are bigger issues here (serious allegations of copyvio). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 00:28, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Didn't we just topic ban someone for refusing to work on their own CCI? Why isn't the same thing done here, especially since this CCI has now been around for about a year and Epeefleche has yet to help clean up the mess he created? T. Canens (talk) 23:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. It seems more appropriate to ban someone who still hasn't helped after a year, rather than ban someone who's CCI has just opened. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 07:57, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

For the record, here are the two sentences in question (AFICT)
 * Source


 * Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&action=edit&section=36
 * I think that the "inadvertently" is arguable a WP:OR problem (though common sense probably applies). I think that there are only so many ways to communicate the idea of the sentence and this one would seem reasonable to me.  But others, more versed in copyright issues, should probably comment. Hobit (talk) 23:58, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Even if you think that this version is adequate, it is worth noting what Mkativerata first removed as a paraphrase.
 * What mkativerata removed

which is much, much too close to the original source. Epeefleche made incremental changes all of which which Mkativerata stated, I think legitimately, remained too close to the source, before arriving at this current. --Slp1 (talk) 00:16, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Does making incremental changes to a copyvio until the wording is sufficiently different from the original make it no longer a derivative? INAL but my sources say "no". causa sui (talk) 00:19, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I certainly hope so. Otherwise we should just delete, rather than fix, any detected copyright violations.  Plus, a quote that short in a non-profit (yes it matters) is almost certainly fair use so the issue is fairly moot.  I personally think the first version is highly problematic, the last was fine and shouldn't have been deleted. Hobit (talk) 01:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry you don't overcome close paraphrasing with a thesaurus. --Mkativerata (talk) 02:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, I don't have anything better. Could you provide a way to say that same thing without being a close paraphrase?  Or is it the attempt to say the same thing, in a single sentence, that was in the original, as a single sentence, that is a problem? (Sorry that sentence sucked, did I mention I don't write well?) Hobit (talk) 02:10, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If an editor lacks the skills to do it (and I don't mean that perjoratively), in-text attribution is a safe way around the problem. And does the sentence need to be in the article in the first place? If the sentence derives from one sentence in one source, it's probably not important. So yes, it can be the very attempt to say the same thing, in a single sentence, that was in the original, as a single sentence, that is a problem --Mkativerata (talk) 02:15, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe I understand your points, but I will disagree. There are times that a single sentence can and should be paraphrased from a source.  Ignoring if this is such a case, I think that the (final) paraphrasing used is about as far from the source as it could be while still making the same point.  Would "In his 2005 book Tehran Rising: Iran's Challenge to the United States], Berman claims that by displacing Saddam Hussein and the Taliban from the  Middle East, the United States left room for Iran to fill the vacuum they left." be any better?  Eh.  Like I said, I think the final version was acceptable, but I agree the first was certainly not.  YMMV. Hobit (talk) 03:00, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree w/Hobit. And my focus is, as well, on the third deletion that Mkat made (in half an hour, without talkpage discussion).  I don't think that unwarranted assertions of copyvio should be used by a sysop, who is bound by wp:admin, and who is without question an involved editor, to delete material he doesn't like.  Copyvio is a serious and important concern.  But simply saying "I assert it is a copyvio" does not entitle Mkat to bludgeon other editors, where there is no copyvio.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:15, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with most of what hobit says but would make the further point that we are dealing with here may not even be a close paraphrase of the source stated - that is if the source "Tehran Rising," by Ilan Berman contains a sentence reading
 * then the first version is a correctly attributed quote. From memory epeefleche's CCI was mostly filled with examples like this where one secondary source correctly attributes a piece of information to another secondary source and this attribution has been closely paraphrased to wikipedia. The material being paraphrased in these cases does not begin to approach the threshold of originality required by law to assert a copyvio. That said in these cases our concern should be one of sourcing we should endeavour to cite the claim in the book rather than citing an article discussing the book as the latter is more likely to appear to be a copyvio even if it isn't. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 10:37, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

This issue involves an article that has not received attention for most of a year, but appears to be being investigated as part of a CCI investigation. However, the current dispute does not involve copyright violation, because we would not allow a copyright violation to be retained in the edit history of the article. Instead, this is an editorial dispute over non-copyright-violating "close paraphrasing" by the target of the CCI investigation. Regarding the initial recent edit to the article, the target of the CCI investigation does not dispute the concern of "close paraphrasing", and does not dispute the initial revert of the material, but instead seeks to restore the work product of the encyclopedia without the concern. This is where the dispute begins, because the subject of this ANI review refuses to allow improvements to the encyclopedia, refuses to engage in talk page discussion, and on this ANI page escalates by threatening to use administrative tools. This discussion can be resolved by reminding Mkativerata to discuss editorial disputes on the talk page. Unscintillating (talk) 17:22, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not really an accurate understanding of how we handle copyright problems. We allow them to be retained in the edit history of articles routinely. User:Flatscan and I have just been talking about how that should be addressed. But even I only revdelete extensive issues. (And Mkativerata is more conservative there than I am: ) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:52, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Unscintillating--Actually, there is nothing in Mkat's immediately prior edits to suggest that Mkat was looking at Ilan Berman as part of a CCI investigation. Nor did Mkat assert it.  BTW, though Berman had not been edited in a year as you point out, Berman had just before Mkat's edits written a NYT article that brought him onto the radar screen.  Second, I appreciate your bringing the focus back to the facts here.  Finally, it was only after I differed with Mkat that he began deleting articles just now ... before I questioned his approach, he had not touched any articles that were part of the CCI investigation for many months.  Immediately after I questioned him, he began vigorously deleting articles of Olympic medal winning athletes in total, not even leaving a stub.--Epeefleche (talk) 11:36, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * This is in response to this note and this one, as if I answer them separately I'm going to be doing a lot of repeating myself. :)


 * Mkativerata picked up working on your CCI (which is much appreciated, since nobody else has been doing it and your CCI was cited at AN a week or two ago as specific evidence that nobody cares about copyright problems) at 19:07 on 17 November. Before you edited that article, he had documented his change and moved on to the next article in line at 19:12 before you first "differed" with these two edits (at 19:16 and 19:18). I watch articles I clean for copyright problems routinely (although not always long enough, as yesterday I cleaned the same pasted content out of an article I cleaned up in 2008). If I disagreed with your rewrite, I would have left you a note at your user talk page explaining why after I reverted you, but, then, if I disagreed with admins actions related to my work, I would have left them a note at their talk page explaining why. I would not have opened an ANI without this step. I haven't looked at the text in question; I've been pretty much unavailable for CCI work myself for months. But the point isn't that Mkativerata may or may not have been wrong in his action. Sometimes there are good faith disagreements about what constitutes a close paraphrase. It happens. The point is that you are assuming a bad faith motive on Mkativerata's part (an agenda), and I do not see any evidence to support that. While Mkativerata had not done work on your CCI lately, Mkativerata has been a CCI regular in the past - this is why he is listed as a CCI Clerk. (Which just shows how out of date we are, since admins don't need to be...and that I really need to get User:MER-C some help here.) He's also been doing some much needed work at WP:CP. Sure, we can look at this in such a way as to suggest that he's been doing all this as some kind of smoke screen to allow him to press an agenda, but not without squinting really hard. :) WP:AGF says if we do any squinting, we should be squinting in the direction of assuming that people mean well.


 * In terms of avoiding distress, I'll offer you an idea: if you are unhappy with the way other people are cleaning up the CCI, why don't you do it before they get there? While you should not mark an article as resolved on your CCI, there is absolutely no reason that you can't put a note underneath the article title that you believe you have fixed it. Other CCI subjects have done this, and it can work well. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with Moonriddengirl. Her remedy (get in there preemptively to fix things) is more of a challenge than it is a solution I think Epeefleche will avail himself of. I think the best way for Epeefleche to handle Mkativerata’s deletions of his content is—rather than revert Mkativerata—to just revise the deleted text so it no longer appears as a “very close” (or merely “close”) paraphrasing of the original cited work. Thus, if Epeefleche perceives that the deletions had a POV-pushing effect, he can easily fix that problem by taking the time to address the plagiarism concerns. Mkativerata, for his part, can just make sure to leave pithy but accurate edit summaries so that Epeefleche clearly understands the true basis for the edits. Greg L (talk) 22:17, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That is good advice. Unfortunately, it seems that Epeefleche has shown little interest in collaborating with the CCI, which has made little progress in a year or so since it has been opened. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 08:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

So if Epee is altering the text repeatedly to ameliorate the copyright violation, that's a good thing right? I'd imagine Mkativerata would, on reflection, agree that even limited cooperation from CCI subjects is better than no cooperation. Since the text has been adjusted significantly to the point that it no longer appears to be a copyright violation (demonstrating, by the by, how easy it is to avoid such a violation in the first place), and Mkat hasn't reverted it again, we're done here with this issue, yes?

And now the next issue: let's discuss (as with Richard Arthur Norton) if Epeefleche's activities should be restricted by topic ban to working with the CCI until his/her contributions have been fully cleaned. <strong style="color:#0033CC">Nathan <strong style="color:#0033CC"> T 23:37, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Let’s be clear about something, Nathan. Epeefleche is a mature and highly educated editor; he’s not some sort of 16-year-old kid out to make trouble. Notwithstanding his education, he dicked up with some colossal plagiarism and he’s admitted that he screwed up. But part of why he keeps finding himself embroiled here at ANI is because he works in a controversial area: terrorist-related articles. That sort of area intrinsically brings editors with a pro-Israeli bias into conflict with those who have an pro-Islam bias (known, using the standard wiki-quoloqialism, as “POV-pushing where the respective parties have a hard time comprehending other’s worldview”). So… I have a better idea. Rather than give a productive and mature editor the equivalent of an atomic wedgie (with a splendid public-humiliation tar & feathering aspect to it), we just sit back and watch how Epeefleche and Mkativerata collaborate on Targeted killing; Mkativerata just got through blanking the article for copyright violations. I propose we keep a keen eye for the sort of behavior that these two editors accuse each other of: Epeefleche’s alleged failure to revise very close paraphrasing, and Mkativerata’s alleged use of copyright violations as a pretense to POV-push. Let the sunshine of public inspection reveal the truth of the matter. Greg L (talk) 00:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Greg L's first two sentences. I don't think there's a need for any editing restriction. Fact: Everything I've seen Epeefleche create since the CCI started is copyvio-free. It's irritating in a way that the CCI remains on foot while Epeefleche enjoys full editing privileges, but irritation isn't a ground for an editing restriction. All I ask is that Epeefleche stays out of the way of editors trying to clean up the copyright violations. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think we can move forward with that consensus: Epeefleche isn't uploading any copyvios since the CCI started; Mkativerata is using a blunt instrument to remove coypvios uploaded by Epeefleche in the past, but that is sometimes necessary; anyone distressed by this is invited to clean up coypvios in the CCI in whatever other way they see fit before Mkativerata gets to them. Resolved? :-) causa sui (talk) 07:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I had some trouble understanding some of the positions taken in this discussion. I found the urls and references in the diffs made it harder to see just what had changed between the versions.  So I created a scratch page, in user space, where i could strip out the hidden material, and just use diffs to see how the text changed.


 * It is my understanding that ideas aren't copyrightable -- only how they are expressed.


 * We are all volunteers here. No one can force us to undertake a specific task.  But, I think once we have undertaken a task we have a responsibility to see it through.


 * As an administrator Mkat is authorized to excise passages he or she thinks represent a problem. He or she did that here.  Mkat edit summary said "Rm a couple of close paraphrases and fix a couple of quotes." -- I suspect most administrators wouldn't have thought any further explanation was necessary -- this time.


 * However their 2nd excision only said "remains a close paraphrase.. ."  And their 3rd excision said "Synonyms and syntax changes do not change close paraphrasing. As a CCI subject you are treading on dangerous ground."


 * The contributor who made repeated attempts to rewrite the passage says they hoped for more useful feedback as to why their subsequent attempts were being excised. It seems to me that Epee's good faith efforts to draft replacement passages deserved more effort on mkat's part to explain what was wrong with the replacements.  Am I missing something?  Has mkat made any effort beyond those edit summaries to explain these excisions?


 * In particular, others have questioned mkat's third excision. I really don't think this thread should be closed without greater discussion as to why that attempted rewrite merited excision.  I too don't understand why it was excised.


 * As I understand it, blocks and bans are not punishment, they are tools intended to preserve the integrity of the project. As I understand it contributors who return from a block, or who have had a topic ban, or other administrative condition agreed upon, should be entitled to the assumption of good faith, so long as they seem to have learned their lesson.


 * I was not aware that epee had been the subject of a CCI -- whatever that is. But he seems to have made good faith attempts to remedy whatever lapses he made in the past.


 * It seems to me that one interpretation of mkat's edit summary "As a CCI subject you are treading on dangerous ground" was that this may have been mkat's way of warning epee that he would be blocked if he made another attempt to draft a replacement passage. This really concerns me.  I am really concerned when I see an administrator making a vague warning to a good faith contributor that they may block them in the future, when that warning doesn't clearly say what future behavior will trigger the block and under which policy they think the block is authorized.


 * This warning -- if that is what it was -- seems very problematic to me, if mkat can't offer a fuller explanation for the excision that accompanied it.


 * Included for your reading pleasure -- diffs with extraneous hidden material excised, so you can see more clearly, how the different versions varied. Geo Swan (talk) 19:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * {| class="wikitable"


 * || target of 'close paraphrase' claim ||
 * || diff between target and version 1 ||
 * || diff between target and version 2 ||
 * || diff between target and version 3 || If you only click on one link here, click on this one. It is the excision of this version that I think most clearly merits further explanation.
 * || diff between target and current version ||
 * }
 * I left a message on mkat's talk page asking mkat to explain more fully the reasoning behing his or her third excision. I asked mkat for the reasoning behind his threats to block epee.  I hope they will return here and do so.  Geo Swan (talk) 06:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * || diff between target and current version ||
 * }
 * I left a message on mkat's talk page asking mkat to explain more fully the reasoning behing his or her third excision. I asked mkat for the reasoning behind his threats to block epee.  I hope they will return here and do so.  Geo Swan (talk) 06:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I left a message on mkat's talk page asking mkat to explain more fully the reasoning behing his or her third excision. I asked mkat for the reasoning behind his threats to block epee.  I hope they will return here and do so.  Geo Swan (talk) 06:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Mkat did respond, briefly, on his talk page. His response was basically a repeat of his or her original edit summary.  Since several people here have said they don't understand why epee's attempt the mkat excised in his third excision should be considered a close paraphrase, I really think a more specific explanation is called for.  Several other contributors seem to have endorsed all his excisions -- including the third.  Since mkat seems unwilling or unable to offer an explanation, maybe one of the other participants here who endorsed this excision can offer their reasoning for considering it a "close paraphrase"?  Mkat's response also did not address my concern that the warnings they left for epee were unhelpful because they didn't layout which behaviors epee should avoid to avoid triggering the block, and they didn't help epee, or anyone else reading the discussion, which policy would authorize that block.  Geo Swan (talk) 22:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

New blanking by Mkativerata in his COI area; Mkat's threat to block
Mkat admits he has a conflict of interest in the ARBPIA area. In deletions that triggered this AN/I, he ignored his COI. (His claim of "close paraphrasing" was highly dubious, but even had it not been dubious his correct course given his COI would have been to post his concern on a noticeboard, where someone non-involved could pursue it). Mkat was alerted to this issue.

Mkat responded above: "I will not hesitate to block you if you continue to disrupt the resolution of your CCI." But -- I haven't been disrupting any CCI. That sysop Mkat would threaten me with a block, for reporting my concerns above, troubles me.

Mkat has just now, after the above AN/I discussion, gone 1 step further. Blanking the entire article targeted killing. An article that is clearly within his COI area. (which I contributed to significantly this past year).

As an aside, it is highly dubious that this 194-ref targeted killing article was a copyvio. And that Mkat's blanking of it was proper--even if Mkat had not had a COI.

Mkat is thus continuing to delete material in disregard of his COI. And of wp:admin. And he only began blanking articles I had worked on after our disagreement 4 days ago on 2 sentences in the Berman article -- before the Berman article, he had not blanked or deleted material from any articles I worked on for at least 10 months, as far as I can recall, but after I disagreed with him he engaged in the above behavior. That adds to the impression that his blanking here is part of a pattern of retribution. By an involved sysop.

I gather that Mkat is displeased I disagreed with him 2 days ago, as to what constituted a "close paraphrase". And as to his failure to use the talkpage for discussion. But I wonder whether his blocking threat and his article blanking here, especially given his COI, are what wp:admin had in mind.--Epeefleche (talk) 09:03, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You are attributing motives when there does not seem to be one. Frankly, at this point I'm sorely tempted to just write a script that adds {{subst:copyvio}} to all the articles referenced in the CCI. You are also totally confusing conflict of interest and involvement. T. Canens (talk) 10:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Just in case anyone is interested, here is the explanation for my self-declaration of ARBPIA involvement. --Mkativerata (talk) 10:28, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * So the entirety of your "involvement" is having endorsed two views in an RFC in 2010? Honestly, I think you are being overly cautious here. That makes the claims here even more spurious... T. Canens (talk) 11:58, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have demonstrated, with diffs, that Mkativerata picked up on your work on CCI and was continuing to work on your CCI before you objected to the first edit. It's true he had not yet blanked an article on this go-around; had Mkativerata never blanked an article of yours before or if blanking articles for further evaluation at WP:CP wasn't standard, you might have cause for concern. But Mkativerata's behavior here is no different than Mkativerata's behavior was in January (for one example of many: ). It is the same behavior he has brought to bear on other CCIs in unrelated areas (for one example: ), and it is the same behavior others bring to bear on CCIs, where blanking articles is one of the standard operating procedures. (We even have a special template for articles that are blanked without evidence where presumption of copying is strong: CCId.) I have no reason to think that Mkativerata is handling your CCI any differently than anybody else's CCI has been handled. Actually, I think blanking is likely more prudent than text removal at this point given your presumption of bad faith on his part. That way, he flags the problem, but another administrator will oversee any proposed cleanup you place in the temp space and work with you through any disagreements on whether or not content has been rewritten from scratch. I have myself taken this tack when contributors personalize cleanup efforts of their CCIs to help minimize any feeling that I might be subjecting them to unfair scrutiny because I don't like them or because I have a bias against their subject areas. (That said, I don't at all mean to discourage Mkativerata from removing or rewriting the content directly.) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 11:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Epeefleche, you're not doing yourself any huge favors here. You fail to mention in your complaint that Mkat first removed numerous specific examples of copyright violations, and only upon deciding that it was likely the entire article was suspect did he proceed to blank it. This thought progression is pretty clear and obvious just from the edit history. If you want to rescue the article, fix it. If you want to avoid having this happen to other articles of yours, fix them. If you'd rather go on working on new content and avoid any attempt to fix your past mistakes, just wipe your watchlist and start over. <strong style="color:#0033CC">Nathan <strong style="color:#0033CC"> T 15:42, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Nathan. As indicated above, I've volunteered to fix old copyvios.  I'm more than willing to do that.  As to the more immediate concern-- the targeted killing article -- I've asked Mkat (at the article talkpage) to indicate where he believes there are copyvios.  That way, the community can discuss if they are in fact copyvios (as indicated by a number of editors now, the Mkat-claimed copyvio that spurred this AN/I was likely not a copyvio at all, and it may not always be the case that a claim is in fact correct).  Once Mkat indicates what he believes are copyvios, that will enable the community to understand what is troubling him that he thinks requires deletion of the article.  Editors will be better able then to either discuss (though it is unclear to me at this point what import even consensus disagreement with his view would have) and/or "fix" the text.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:04, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Your text-walling on Talk:Muslim Arab Youth Association -- seven questions! -- is plain disruptive. Your demand at Talk:Targeted killing for me to identify each and every copyvio in a 130kb article you founded is even more so.--Mkativerata (talk) 01:37, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I came here from another users talk page where Epeefleche had left a message with a link to this thread in a section below a message I had left that user. As such I know little about this case other than what I haver read here.

@Greg L, I thought your tenacious defence of Epeefleche's behaviour over the introduction of the Targeted killing article was misguided, but there you are, it was a matter of opinion. To my surprise I find you here in this thread trying to defend the undefendable. Just out of interest can you provide a diff to the last time that you criticised anything Epeefleche has done, or vice versa? -- PBS (talk) 15:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I am amazed that Epeefleche opened this ANI and there are several points I would like to make: Epeefleche wrote above "Involved editors can of course delete blatant vandalism. ... not a copyvio at all, and certainly not a blatant copyvio." That statement shows that Epeefleche has no understanding of how much copyright infringement endangers this project. Blatant petty vandalism is annoying, but it does not threaten the project. Subtle vandalism that introduces libel that goes undetected for months does, and so do copyright violations if we are not seen to be using due diligence to prevent it and clean it up. This makes me wonder how likely it is that Epeefleche has seen the light and understands how much damage (s)he has done to the project.

I find this statement baffling "We are talking about Mkat's deletions yesterday -- years (and 50-80,000 edits?) after I wasn't familiar with our copyvio rules." Is Epeefleche stating the when (s)he wrote the Targeted killing article on 30 September 2010 (s)he was not familiar with the "copyright rules"? Or is it that there were no copyright violations in that article? If (s)he was not familiar with the "copyright rules" on 30 of September last year on what date did (s)he become familiar with them? -- PBS (talk) 15:39, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Request for block of Epeefleche
Almost two years ago, when raised copyright concerns with Epeefleche, she was [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Epeefleche&oldid=351672760#Copyright.2Fplagiarism_concerns. attacked]. When filed a necessary CCI in December last year, he was attacked. Now I try to clean up the extraordinary copyright violations that Epeefleche has introduced, despite warning, over a long period, I am the subject of harassment, by virtue of this ANI and disruptive text-walling. Today the disruption has reached new heights, with absurd badgering (Talk:Muslim Arab Youth Association) and absurd requests (eg Talk:Targeted killing, asking that I specify all individual copyright violations in a 130kb article, when I have already given multiple examples in the article's edit history). This has to stop. It is plainly disruptive. The intention is obviously to harrass me with complaints and questions until I am driven away from the CCI. Epeefleche's intention to disrupt is evidence by his canvassing of others to participate here (evidence above). I'm calling for him to be blocked pending a discussion of an appropriate edit restriction to prevent him from disrupting his CCI.

The community has to get serious: does it support editors who do the hard work of removing large-scale copyright violations (and I'm acting as an editor in this CCI, I have not once used admin tools) or not? If Epeefleche is permitted to continue this disruption, the answer from the administrative corps would be an obvious "no". The CCI is less than 1% complete. It is part of a massive CCI backlog. Those who work on CCI need to be supported. --Mkativerata (talk) 02:24, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The timing of this request is curious and is suggestive of rage and a personal vendetta. I just got through adding my 2¢ on Mkativerata’s talk page . Just 38 minutes later, he hit “Save page” on this request to block Epeefleche. The timing comes across as “Well then… eat this!” What I wrote there was exactly what I honestly feel about what is going on with him and Epeefleche. His escalation of this ongoing tit-for-tat seems to be an awful lot of wikidrama. I suggest he take a 24 hour wikibreak to cool down. Greg L (talk) 02:43, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The timing of this request seems suggestive of an understandable frustration to me. I am reluctantly forced to agree that something needs to be done. I have been trying to keep an eye on communication here, and I agree that the result of Epeefleche's "interactions" is disruptive. See and, where he continues to imply that this is all being blown out of proportion. It took me 20 seconds to find that he had copied this bit of prose from the New York Times in the former: "'Allah Akhbar,' roared the crowd, offering spontaneous praise." Mkativerata identified other text. In the latter? Well: from the Washington Post, for example:


 * From the article (citations removed; they don't justify copying):


 * I found this through a quick google search. Mkativerata had likely already identified it and others in edit summaries. If Epeefleche had spent even part of the energy on rewriting his content that he has spent in trying to imply that there's nothing wrong with it, both those articles would have already been repaired. His insistence on fighting every step of the way is going to make his CCI impossible to conduct, and I don't see any reason to believe that he is going to be willing to collaborate rather than combat. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 02:54, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree that Epeefleche should help fix the copyvios. But if I correctly understand the interpersonal dynamics here, the process by which Mkativerata is blanking article content and then telling Epeefleche to keep clear while Mkativerata unilaterally fixes the articles is a bitter pill to swallow for someone who was the shepherding author of an article. We all have to struggle against WP:OWN tendencies when someone runs roughshod on articles we created and it takes extreme maturity to remain civil. But everything I see about Mkativerata’s approach to communicating with Epeefleche and others betrays an arrogance that inflames the situation. We just don’t need that in an admin and currently, the en.Wikipedia has no great process to reign in admins who react passionately. On Mkativerata’s talk page, Geo Swan left a lengthy and mature post (permalink) asking Mkativerata to explain and justify his latest actions and Mkativerata left a one-liner response that wasn’t much more than “The edit summaries speak for themselves.” Mkativerata seems to be taking this all too personally (perceives all criticism as a challenge to his authority and a personal affront) and has lost perspective as to what Wikipedia is about. It is not about wikidrama and is all about decompressing and communication rather than brute force and escalation. Greg L (talk) 03:08, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * How else is there to take a statement like "I can see I'm wasting my time with someone who has let power go to his head" than as a "personal affront"? Is it really meant to decompress and communicate? If so, I'm afraid you may have missed that mark. :/ That said, I don't agree with you that this is necessarily a response to your edit. Had he taken you to WP:WQA, certainly. This seems a natural result of Epeefleche challenging clean up efforts rather than contributing to them. Can you explain to me where you see Mkativerata unilaterally fixing articles or why you think that's what's happening? In the past, when Mkativerata has blanked Epeefleche's articles, he has listed them at CP and left them for another admin to handle. This is common procedure. On what do you base your conclusion that this time is different? --Moonriddengirl (talk) 03:25, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I’m sorry Moonriddengirl, but I don’t agree with the apparent premiss of your posts here, which seem intended to paint Mkativerata’s dealings with Epeefleche as having been exemplary and his motivations pure as the driven snow. I assume that Geo Swan is an unbiased third party here. Am I wrong about that? But Mkativerata’s response to Geo Swan on his talk page where Geo was asking him to explain himself amounted to “I don’t need to explain myself to anyone” and betrays that he perceives Wikipedia as a WP:BATTLEGROUND. And then his rushing here to post this request 38 minutes after my hubris to challenge his motivations and behavior was pure and childish “neener neener”. I find that claims of AGF and WP:SHEAR INNOCENT COINCIDENCE to be unconvincing after a modicum of WP:COMMONSENSE is applied. Those two just need to stay away from each other for a week.  Greg L (talk) 04:38, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I realize that you don't agree; if you did, you probably wouldn't have left this message, much less the one at his talk page I linked above. The one you left at Talk:Targeted killing carries the same strong implication that you believe Mkativerata is rewriting Epeefleche's articles to include some kind of bias; I'm really curious as to why you think "Mkativerata is blanking article content and then telling Epeefleche to keep clear while Mkativerata unilaterally fixes the articles." Mkativerata offered yesterday before all this escalated to slow down on blanking articles to allow Epeefleche time to rewrite them (Full conversation). I just don't know where you got the impression that Mkativerata was intending to unilaterally fix these articles. The template with which they are blanked includes instructions for where to rewrite them; anybody can. :/ --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:56, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * A block seems highly appropriate. Mkativerata has produced evidence of a long-standing pattern of behaviour by Epeefleche that involves attacking those who try to clear up copyvios. You don't even need to be an admin to help clear them up so all this stuff about being an involved admin is nonsense. We need to show support of those involved in the often thankless task of dealing with copyvios and help them protect Wikipedia by blocking those who seek to sabotage their efforts.--Peter cohen (talk) 03:31, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I am not going to say yea or nay to blocking but I think people ought to read: Talk:Targeted killing, look at Epeefleche edit history over the last 24 hours including the edits here and on the talk page of Talk:Targeted killing, and weigh up if Epeefleche is helping or hindering the copyright clean up. -- PBS (talk) 04:07, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Blocked indef. Any admin may unblock when they are satisfied that Epeefleche will no longer disrupt the CCI. T. Canens (talk) 04:29, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Timotheus Canens has again shown his bias. Extra hard on editors he is opposed to and kind of forgiving to the ones he agrees with. Shame that any rfc will get bogged down in filibustering, shenanigans, and complete ridiculousness (recalling an admin is like pulling teeth). Time fore TC to stop making blocks for editors he has had any dealings with in the IP area since he gives those he prefers leeway. Evidence shows that he is involved even if it is not actual editing.Cptnono (talk) 04:45, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * So the gang are moving on from claiming that the person who was fixing the CCI is an evil anti-Zionist who imagines blatant copyright violations when all that the original editor was doing was to try to ensure that poor little Israel was given a fair hearing to claiming that the person who made the block is one? Unfortunately this is not the only page where this ad hominem sophistry is going on. Time for ARBPIA++. --Peter cohen (talk) 13:28, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And the case is Arbitration/Requests/Case.--Peter cohen (talk) 14:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That this all started a mere 38 minutes after I had the hubris to lip off to Mkativerata for his blunt dealings with Epeefleche makes this seem particularly unseemly. Both editors (Epeefleche and Mkativerata) were giving each others public wedgies. That is human nature. But rewarding an admin for “being right” on the principle of fixing copyvio problems but being way-wrong with his interpersonal dealings with a hard-working editor until the conflict escalated to this looks really poor. And I don’t know why everyone pretends to not notice the 800-pound gorilla in the room that underlies this whole fiasco. Epeefleche has complained that Mkativerata waters down articles that are critical of radical Islam. Epeefleche errs the other way. The root of the enmity between the two is a battle of POV-pushing and it seems to me that Mkativerata exploited Epeefleche’s copyvio issues to go and strip out parts of articles Mkativerata didn’t like. Epeefleche saw that and the battle was on. Greg L (talk) 04:52, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's just too bad. I have no knowledge of the accuracy of your claim, but even if it is correct, a person who has introduced copyvio problems has to get out of the way when others try to fix it. The situation is pretty simple: Are there significant plagiarism issues? Does the community support those willing to clean them up? It looks like yes is the answer to the first question, while the second has received a yes from T. Canens and a not really from others. Johnuniq (talk) 10:27, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Greg L, it is easy to assert that Mkativerata is "watering down" articles that are critical of radical Islam, but Epeefleche's complaining that it is do does not make it so. And the hypothesis that Mkativerata is pushing some kind of pro-Islam agenda doesn't fit into the facts that his evaluation includes articles like David Blu, Isadore Schwartz, Herbert Flam and Marvin Goldklang, which are remarkably clear of anti-Islam sentiment. A far more plausible explanation is that Mkativerata is doing what we all do at CCI; reviewing a cross-section of the contributors' work. Your assertion that "The root of the enmity between the two is a battle of POV-pushing and it seems to me that Mkativerata exploited Epeefleche’s copyvio issues to go and strip out parts of articles Mkativerata didn’t like" requires evidence. Your certainty that your post, 38 minutes before this ANI expansion, was the catalyst for this ANI expansion is puzzling, given that a far more plausible explanation is that Mkativerata began working on an ANI post which he completed at 2:24 right after working on a response at Talk:Muslim Arab Youth Association at 1:54 and 2:01. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:17, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Of course it's true that removing Epeefleche's contributions has the effect of watering down criticisms of Islam; that is a consequence of the sort of content Epeefleche has added. What is missing is evidence that Mkativerata is doing this as part of a pro-Islamic agenda (rather than an anti-copyvio one).  Kanguole 14:11, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I could just as easily write Of course Epeefleche's attempts to restore text has the effect of restoring criticism of Islam; that is a consequence of the sort of stuff Mkativerata deletes. As you wrote, we need evidence to judge this. But as we also all know, a blow-by-blow, edit-by-edit discussion to analyze the truth of the extent to with each party is POV-pushing is beyond the scope of this ANI. Why? Because Epeefleche doesn’t have any leg to stand on given his copyvio issues. I’m not defending Epeefleche and the slant he brings to terrorist-related articles, I’m merely saying that it is clear to me, looking at the totality of what is going on, that Mkativerata is exploiting the correction of copyvio to POV-push and that’s obviously the root source of a lot of the friction between these two editors. Since I know Epeefleche, I am ruling out the possibility that he has recently succumbed to schizophrenia and is imagining things. Dialing our Common-Sense-O-Meters to “100,” we also know that Wikipedia is a big place and everyone here is a volunteer. What would motivate an editor like Mkativerata to devote the tedious effort to clean up Epeefleche’s articles? To protect the project from a lawsuit? To do good for humanity? We all know that usually this sort of dedication requires a personal motivation and countering someone else’s  POV pushing is the most common motivation—and it results in a lot of wikidrama here.  Now, this edit of Mkativerata’s, where he deleted text that began with He wrote in his 2005 book… and that introduction was followed with a close paraphrase is all the attribution required; since it is a close paraphrase and not an exact quote, it would be flat-improper to put quotes around it. Yet Mkativerata deleted even though the attribution was fully sufficient. I can scarcely see how that sort of thing does the project any good; Mkativerata thought he saw yet another thing of Epeefleche’s he could delete but stepped over the line in his zeal and got caught. It doesn’t take Dr. Phil to figure out what’s going on between these two and what their motivations are. It’s clear Mkativerata feels is in the right, as evidenced by his royally flippant response to Geo Swan on his talk page, when he left only a one-liner amounting to “I’ve said all I need to say about what I’m up to” when asked to explain himself.  I just want to see the interests of our readership best served. Epeefleche has had run-ins in the past when editors would change text that read like this: Another on the U.S.’s kill list is Anwar al-Awlaki (an American citizen who declared jihad against America) and change it to Another on the U.S.’s kill list is Anwar al-Awlaki (a conservative Muslim scholar). The latter one obviously does not focus on what makes Anwar al-Awlaki notable as judged by the preponderance of the RSs. We all know this sort of POV-pushing will occur a hundred times just today. Now, I’m not suggesting that what Mkativerata is doing is nearly that egregious; it is far more subtle from what I can see—but it is palpable and real, in my opinion. Wikipedia is a battleground for a tug-of-war between editors who have different worldviews and want to effect change in Wikipedia’s articles; that’s not what we want, but that’s the simple reality of a phenomenon that is real. I consider myself to be a middle-of-the-roader, where the proper balance in our articles should reflect the general tone of the RSs—I have a keen eye for that.  As for what Mkativerata does with these articles from hereon, the proof will be in the pudding when he’s done with Targeted killing and any other articles Epeefleche has had a hand in from this point forward. Epeefleche is blocked now. What with Mkativerata request here coming 38 minutes after I took him to task on his own talk page, indeed, my involvement certainly didn’t help Epeefleche; but then, Mkativerata coming here 38 minutes later had something to do with it and I think the stunt made him just look like he reacts in anger, which we don’t need on Wikipedia. So what’s done is done. The community is watching both these guys now, including me. Greg L (talk) 17:47, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The idea that the most likely explanation for Mkativerata's efforts to remove copyright infringements is that s/he is trying to promote a POV is absurd. There are many editors who do remove copyright infringements "To protect the project from a lawsuit" or "To do good for humanity". A little looking would have shown you that Mkativerata has done work on many other copyright investigations (see, for instance, this one, this one or this one). Making wild unfounded accusations about an experienced editor is not going to help your case.  Hut 8.5  18:19, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You and I clearly don’t see eye to eye on this, Hut 8.5. The above linked edit-diff shows that my views of what Mkativerata is up to are not “unfounded” as you allege. Mkativerata has a lot of friends and they naturally come to his defense in ANIs like this against him. But nose-count of support does not explain away clear evidence. So we’ll just have to agree to disagree, OK? Greg L (talk) 18:23, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * No-one's going to see eye to eye with you on this unless you can provide more evidence to substantiate your accusation of bad faith. I'm not a "friend" of Mkativerata and I have no prior recollection of interacting with him/her. The idea that putting a lot of work into cleaning up copyright violations is a good indicator of POV-pushing is ridiculous and downright offensive to anyone who does copyright work.  Hut 8.5  18:32, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Please don’t mischaracterize what I wrote. For that, I think I am rather done with you today. Nowhere did I make an “accusation of bad faith”; POV-pushing comes not from bad faith but from a bias one can’t see in oneself. As for the personal enmity between those two and Mkativerata’s flippant and arrogant responses to Geo Swan when he was asked to explain himself: that is there for all to see in black & white on his talk page. You may make of the evidence in any way you like, but the evidence speaks to me clearly enough and I respectively disagree with you. Greg L (talk) 18:41, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This endless mudflinging about Mkativerata's motives needs to stop, Greg L. There is no sign s/he has bee editing in the PI area in any kind of one-sided way.   He was and is in the right about removing obvious copyright violations and plagiarism, whatever the topic.    Please stop, as you have been requested already. --Slp1 (talk) 18:41, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

The copyvio problem has become more pressing recently with the discovery of more and more serial copyright violators who previously had an excellent reputation. I don't know how many make an appropriate effort to help in the clean-up. Normally we only learn about those who are unwilling or unable to do that. I wonder if WP:COPYVIO is still up to date. I would prefer a clarification that editors who contaminated Wikipedia on a large scale will be blocked, and that the they can only be unblocked as part of a deal. And that such a deal will require that any other contributions to the project and its community must not exceed a certain percentage of their clean-up contributions until the problem is essentially fixed. Hans Adler 10:45, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Endorsing Tim's block - I would have done the same. Disappointing, as Epeefleche and an I had a conversation, followed up with a convo with Moonriddengirl, and we thought we had worked it all out.  And I don't think GregL has helped his case one bit, unfortunately.  Hopefully an agreement can still be reached - indef is after all not infinity - but Epeefleche would have to up the cleanup, and dial down the complaints. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:14, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * For filing frivolous, retaliatory complaints, and sticking with them beyond all reason, Epeefleche should be banned from complaining about any editors cleaning up his copyvio messes or otherwise obstructing their work. GregL needs to disengage from this area.  His involvement is seriously unhelpful. Jehochman Talk 14:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed. A community topic ban might allow Epeefleche to be unblocked and voluntarily add himself as a party to the new ARBCOM case I have created.--Peter cohen (talk) 14:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree with block, at least until Epeefleche agrees to change his/her behaviour. Editors who severely and persistently violated copyright over a long period of time and on a large scale should only be allowed to edit if they acknowledge the scope of the problem and assist in cleaning it up. Not only has Epeefleche not done this, but he's actively harassing people who do the tedious, severely backlogged task of cleaning up. This is unacceptable.  Hut 8.5  14:02, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, after looking through everything, I would have to support the indefblock placed, as it's become evident that not only are there more copyright violations than we originally thought, but Epee does not seem to want to fix them. These are serious issues for someone who has written a lot of articles. They're well-referenced so this is an easier situation for us and him to fix, but the problems are there. Wizardman  Operation Big Bear 18:09, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think I actually agree with that, Wizardman. The sentiments of those here who support the block could be summarized as Why let him edit anywhere he wants when he shows no interest in helping on all the copyvios in his previous work? So I would propose that the community formally give him a probationary offer: That he can take any of the articles he has had a hand in and and clean it up in his userspace. Perhaps he can create User:Epeefleche/TK sandbox, fix the Targeted killing article there, and offer it up for pasting into articlespace. Since he had 200 citations in the Targeted killing article and knows it well, I suspect that is the one he would be most motivated to fix and do a good job of it. Then the community can go from there with how to further handle his probation. Greg L (talk) 18:23, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "I don't see the copyvio that is claimed as warranted deletion of this article. Would it be possible for you to indicate to the community which specific sentences you believe are copyvio?" (Opening sentence by Epeefleche in the section (s)he created called "Copyvio claim" on Talk:Targeted killing)). How can you read that and then suggest that (s)he should take the lead in recreating this article when (s)he is either being disingenuous (as (s)he was in your words "someone who was the shepherding author of an article" and therefore ought/must know better than anyone else what parts were copied), or is too stupid to understand the problem? As you are clearly in favour of such an article -- personally as you know but others may not, I think it is a POV fork of assassination and opposed its creation -- (see RFC on creation). Why don't you write a new short clean version of the article that you and others (including Epeefleche when/if the block is removed) can then expand? -- PBS (talk) 01:31, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I also agree with this block. There is the long history of copyright violations, but really what is untenable is the disruption, filibustering, and harassment Epeefleche (and his mates) launches upon editors or administrators who dare to critique his editing. Mkativerata is the last in a long line. If it comes to any unblock, while I think it could be helpful if Epeefleche had to help out, my fear is that it will simple cause more problems that it solves. It may just be best to topic ban him from the whole area. In addition, I'd suggest being very careful about the terms of any unblock: I believe that when he was last unblocked from an indef, for canvassing, the unblocking admin came to regret the reduced terms that were finally agreed upon.. Slp1 (talk) 18:41, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Good (albeit unfortunate) block. His contributions are on balance very positive, but disputes are rarely handled cooperatively; and copyright infringement is an area where cooperation can't be considered optional. As in this case, the meatpuppetry that inevitably occurs in any dispute he's in always complicates things, though I don't know who is the actual meatpuppeteer. causa sui (talk) 18:45, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Per Don't take the bait, I won't. I always speak my mind and do what I think is the right thing. Period. Happy editing.Greg L (talk) 18:52, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It seems there are two kinds of 'editing restrictions' being proposed: (1) a requirement to help clean the copyvios; (2) a requirement to disengage from the CCI altogether (I think that is the thrust of Jehochman and Slp1's comments). In my view, (2) is preferable: it would be nice and all for Epeefleche to help with the CCI, but he keeps being told how he can help over and over again and keeps on filibustering. The only way for Epeefleche to return to editing constructively is to just draw a line under everything he contributed before December 2010. I recognise that my advocacy of (2) will probably be seen be some as a way to avoid any scrutiny of my actions on the CCI. But large-scale removals are done by blanking, which necessarily involves review by another administrator. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:29, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Mkat, going by the interaction between the two of you at the Ilan Berman article, and here on ANI, I am sorry but I see epee as the one who made the most effort to be collegial, and I see you as doing a very disappointing job of explaining what was wrong with his attempts to provide alternate wording. You threatened to block him, multiple times -- without offering any clue as to what behavior he should avoid to avoid the block.  That struck me as extremely unfair.  And I am frankly very surprised to see you imply you tried to help him "over and over again".  Geo Swan (talk) 22:43, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with the block. CCIs are always tough on the individual targeted - let's face it, it's an accusation of dishonesty, and to have others going through and potentially deleting one's hard work is always going to be difficult for the person involved. However, there is a right way and a wrong way to approach such an issue and Epeefleche's approach – filibustering and obstruction – is most definitely wrong. A block was absolutely necessary to get him out of the way so that the CCI can proceed. What particularly troubles me about this case, though, is the way Epeefleche has engaged in overtly Islamophobic ideological conflict at the same time by accusing Mkativerata of "pro-Islamic" ideological bias in the CCI. It's one thing to disagree over content with an editor carrying out a CCI, but it's quite another to make seemingly baseless accusations against the CCI reviewer. In my opinion, if Epeefleche is to be allowed to resume editing he must retract and apologise to Mkativerata, as well as staying out of anything to do with the CCI other than responding to direct requests for information. Prioryman (talk) 20:53, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Should have been blocked ages ago for the I-P topic area tendentiousness and unrepentant battleground'ing. Plagiarism is a bright line that thankfully can't be ignored, and is why we have seen only a handful of fans and supporters protest the block, rather than the usual droves that show up to these things. Tarc (talk) 21:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If there are copyright violation and plagiarism issues, than there are no extenuating circumstances that matter. No overriding inside baseball concerns about admin behavior. No deals to be made. None. This is an encyclopedia project, and will not put up with that kind of dishonesty. Any other discussion is irrelevant at best and deliberate obfuscation at worst.--Tznkai (talk) 21:18, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree that we need to be that extreme on it. I don't support immediate zero tolerance.  But a sustained effort to interfere with or object to cleanups by the original party exceeds allowable behavior.  A week ago I didn't believe this case was sufficiently sustained to warrant a block or ban; by today, I believe it has.  This is not unrecoverable but actual coperation going forwards would be an absolute unblock criteria as far as I am concerned, and i would reblock after any unblock if cooperation was not very open and constructive.  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:54, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Unblock and allow Epeefleche to defend himself. I would like to hear his input to this thread. This forum is taking place without the input of the editor that you and I are speaking in reference to. I think that User:Causa sui has earned chastisement for peremptorily impugning those who would defend Epeefleche with his comment "…I don't know who is the actual meatpuppeteer". That is uncalled for, counterproductive, petty, unfounded, in poor taste, etc. Bus stop (talk) 01:04, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I presume it to be a reference to Greg L's slavish support of Epeefleche. I don't think it's a case of meatpuppetry, more likely one of ideological sympathy. While Causa sui might have overstated the case, I don't think there's much doubt that Greg L's contributions to this discussion have been unhelpful. Indeed, as someone said above, they have probably harmed Epeefleche's case overall. If Greg L really wants to help, he should get involved in clearing up the mess that Epeefleche has left behind. Prioryman (talk) 07:37, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Quoting Prioryman: more likely one of ideological sympathy: You nailed it. It is not slavish support for Epeeflech per se, but slavish support for principles and wiki-procedures that could be improved. Regarding If Greg L really wants to help, he should get involved in clearing up the mess that Epeefleche has left behind, Greg L doesn’t want to help with tedious copyvio issues of someone else’s making; I edit for intellectual stimulation by working on subjects I don’t know enough about. I have over a half-dozen patents on fuel cell technology and know PEM fuel cells inside and out. Yet, I haven’t even skimmed our Fuel cell article to see how many errors it has because I have no interest in being reverted by a 16-year-old kid who quoted Popular Mechanics and how “30 percent of autos by 2016 will be powered by fuel cells.” People would be utterly amazed at the misinformation RSs regurgitate from fuel cell companies who are in a perpetual search of the next government grant. In short, what articles I edit are selected to achieve a ‘two-fer” objective: 1) improve an article I found to be lacking and which didn’t provide me sufficient information, and 2) learn in the process of upgrading the article. No one other than Epeefleche should have to clean up Epeefleche’s copyvio problems. Frankly, the very first time he complained about how others were going about it, I would have told him “Tell you what Epee; I’ll give you 48 hours to clean up all the copyvio issues on [yadda yadda] article and if you fail to do so, I’ll do it and you can hold your peace if you are displeased with how others clean up your plagiarism.” But I also have issues with admins who I perceive as being *inelegant* in the way they deal with editors in situations like this.  Greg L (talk) 21:55, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Unblock conditions?
User:Epeefleche is requesting an unblock, User talk:Epeefleche. I've made a proposal to him on the conditions under which I would be comfortable with his unblock and wanted to bring them here for review to see how others feel. Even if he agreed to my proposal, I would not unblock him without strong consensus here. It's a wall of text, but the terms I think might work are as follows (copied from his userpage): "I would support your unblock if you would pledge to stop slowing progress (1) by challenging (openly or by insinuation) the existence of the problem and/or (2) by casting aspersions on the competence or motivations of the people doing the work and would instead agree to focus (if you work on the CCI at all) on rewriting content from scratch. Alternatively, I would support your unblock if you were topic banned from the CCI - which would mean staying away from any article tagged as a problem until after it has been resolved and from the people who tag them in any venue. Because I'm never comfortable with silencing people, I would be okay in that case with your having one acceptable person to whom you can email, agreed upon by the community at ANI. This will avoid you becoming a target of an actual vendetta if somebody should choose to take advantage of your vulnerable position. Email to one neutral, designated person rather than on-Wiki communication would eliminate any unintended disruption, as public aspersions on a CCI volunteer in any venue may have a 'chilling' effect especially if others are influenced by your accusations. If the person chosen for you to contact agrees there is an issue, he or she may raise it in an appropriate venue." What do you think? Are you comfortable with (a) both, (b) either or (c) neither? :) If (c), do you have ideas of your own about how we can best get him back to work on Wikipedia and eliminate the problem? Or reasons why we shouldn't do that at all? --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:00, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it's clear from the above that he's not going to cooperate wither the CCI, but rather sabotage it. So topic banning him from all his CCI-listed articles seems the only practical alternative to a total ban or indef block. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 16:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I also support the topic ban as a first choice; I support the unblock conditions as the second choice. Kww's words here are telling. As I've said before (sorry) I don't think Epeefleche's involvement with this CCI is going to work at all. The terms of the topic ban would be crystal clear: (1) don't edit or comment about an article tagged by a CCI participant until the tagging has been resolved (eg by blanking or deletion removal of the content concerned or deletion of the page); (2) no complaints or questions, anywhere, addressed to or about any editor working on the CCI. That is silencing, but (a) there is no right to free speech on this project; (b) it's plainly necessary in the circumstances; and (c) MRG has proposed an off-wiki mechanism by which Epeefleche can complain as a last resort if he really feels CCI participants are taking advantage of the topic ban. --Mkativerata (talk) 18:25, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Can I clarify here if by "blanking or deletion" you mean actual removal of the content as opposed to placement of the {{subst:copyvio}} template? The terms blanking and deletion have both been used to refer to the placement of the template and to the ultimate resolution after the week at CP, and I just want to make sure that we're all on the same page in the conversation. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 19:34, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed, I hope! In addition, I should also make it clear that any participant in this CCI should retain the prerogative of not tagging an article but instead just excising the problematic content him or herself. For isolated sentences and paragraphs, that's much more efficient than blanking, tagging and listing at CP. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:39, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:31, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Epeefleche is not at his computer and is unable to post to Wikipedia but has emailed me the following, with permission to post it on Wikipedia:
 * As I indicated to you, Elen, and M in our discussion on your talkpage even before the block, I'm happy to assist in the CCI in whatever manner (if any) others see fit.


 * I agree to whichever of your suggestions is deemed preferable. And whichever it is--I agree, as before, that the copyvios should be deleted (if not fixed). I think that your safeguard makes sense as well, for the reasons you state.

I've also placed this at his talk page. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:31, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd support the topic ban suggestion as a first choice. I'm a bit nervous of the current wording as it suggests that Epeefleche can make comments and ask questions after the material has been removed from article.  This appears to be leaving a door open to disruption and arguing after, if not during, an article's cleanup. I'm also a bit concerned about the possibility of vicarious disruption by Epeefleche's supporters, but can't see an easy or appropriate way of dealing with this at present. --Slp1 (talk) 23:39, 24 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The trouble as I see it MG with your proposal is that it has lots of wriggle room for someone who has a mind not to act in good faith. We need the unblock condition to be binary and simple so that if any actions result in a new ANI it crystal clear to everyone (including Epeefleche), whether Epeefleche has or has not breached his/her unblock condition.


 * So basically I agree with what Slp1 is saying but I added one more condition when I wrote the following on Epeefleche's talk page in response to MG's proposal "I think it Epeefleche is to be unblocked he should not go any where near the articles that are being clean up, (s)he has been given months and months to do that and has been found wanting. I also think that there should be a moratorium on this editor creating or recreating any articles until there is a consensus at ANI that (s)he can do so. I suggest this because there is no evidence that Epeefleche has had an epiphany but rather the (s)he is mouthing platitudes under the duress of a block."


 * I also re-asked some questions which I had put to him/ before the most important of which is to clarify (her/his gnomic comment on this page), and explain at what date did (s)he become familiar with "copyvio rules?" I think this is important, because from the comments of some editors on this page this point is not clear, and if Epeefleche is found to have committed a blatant copyvio after that date, then the block should be reimposed immediately while an ANI decides what to do. -- PBS (talk) 00:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * My experience with Epeefleche after releasing his previous indefinite block was that I regretted unblocking him. One of his first actions was to demonstrate that he didn't understand that the actions that lead to his block were a problem.&mdash;Kww(talk) 14:55, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Why is this being made so complex? It could be solved as simply as providing Epeefleche with a list (it can even be the start of a list) of articles that have been proven to contain at least one plagiarized passage without attribution—not a mere list of the article’s he’s created. Then the community imposes a condition for being an unrestricted editor: He must correct one article per week. If he can’t do at least that, it seems perfectly reasonable to have him indef-blocked. It makes no sense to me that others should have to go clean up his mess; particularly if Epeefleche is then going to complain about how the editor most interested in fixing his articles isn’t going about the clean-up properly. This approach will bifurcate the intermingling of copyvio cleanup with POV-pushing issues; the two are distinctly different matters where the latter one resolves itself on its own with time via the normal tug-of war between editors debating via edit summaries and actual discussion (*sound of audience gasp*) on discussion pages and arrival at a consensus. Greg L (talk) 23:39, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Greg L You are more familiar than me with this case, but didn't that boat sail back in December 2010 when the good ship Contributor copyright investigations/Epeefleche was launched? AFAICT, at the start of the investigation a complete list was generated, and there was a lull in the investigation into that list between January 21 and 17 November during which time Epeefleche could have cleaned up all the articles where (s)he had breached copyright. If Epeefleche had been done that, then there would have been nothing for anyone else to find and delete and the investigation would have been closed months ago without a trip to ANI which Epeefleche initiated. -- PBS (talk) 14:09, 26 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The problem isn't cleaning up articles which are known to be copyright violations. That isn't very difficult. The problem is finding the articles which are copyright violations in the first place. That's the only area where Epeefleche may have special expertise because s/he may be able to remember if the text was copied from anywhere. Besides if something is known to be violating copyright then we have to remove it as soon as possible, not have it sit around for months until Epeefleche deals with it as part of the quota.  Hut 8.5  00:55, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

A word on plagiarism and copyright
Been following this. I find much of the discussion on Wikipedia about plagiarism to largely miss the forest for the trees, to be a playground for discussing whether "the rules" have been broken and arcane bits of law few here actually understand, rather than starting from the perspective of the overall health and quality of the encyclopedia articles you presume to be writing. George Herbert's rather charming belief that plagiarism isn't that big a deal expressed here (and elsewhere from memory) is emblematic of the mindset. I'm going to ignore copyright entirely (not because it isn't important, just because it isn't, in and of itself, relevant to the quality of encyclopedia articles). The real problem with plagiarism (whether a law has been broken or not) is that it almost always skews the tone and focus of an article. A newspaper article, written in a particular place by a particular person at a particular time (for instance) is suddenly placed in an omniscient, encyclopedic voice. The plagiarizer (epeefleche is clearly a serial violator, though far from the only one), never does a thorough literature review of a topic, takes a step back, then begins writing with an eye towards what consensus views are, where the controversies/disagreements lie, an overall holistic approach. Using public domain sources in this way is as bad for accuracy and quality of articles as using copyrighted sources. Sometimes the skewed article is simply the by-product of bauble-collecting exercises like DYK (the author doesn't really care -- or understand -- that the article is crap) and sometimes, as is the case with epeefleche, it's a byproduct of the fact that they're here to push a particular point of view (I cast an eye over the dreadful little targeted killing article before it was deleted). They are, in fact, trying to privilege some sources over others, to take a narrow and controversial slice of a topic and place it in that omniscient encyclopedia voice. It is this problem that volunteer editors should be focusing on as a primary issue, though of course that won't be popular because it requires editorial discretion and background knowledge. Much easier to ask the narrow question of "was copyright violated" and deal with nothing else. Deal with the copyright problems by all means. But don't kid yourself that even begins to clean up the real mess.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Is epeefleche a serial violator of copyright? If I have understood what he has written here he has acknowledged that he was a serial violator, early in his wikipedia career, but that he hasn't been a violator in years, hasn't been for violating copyright for tens of thousands of edits.  Several people have drawn our attention to instances where he did violate copyright.  But if all these instances are to edits he made a long time ago, prior to the CCI investigation into his editing practices, I think it would be best to stop referring to him as a serial violator of copyright, and refer to him as a reformed serial violator of copyright.  Is his self-description correct?  Or has he continued to demonstrate an on-going pattern of copyright violations, after a CCI investigation made clear his past edits were problematic?  Geo Swan (talk) 22:06, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This is a redherring, but anyway. Geo Swan, you yourself have been looking at the Targeted killing article, and know that large chunks, if not the whole article, is a series of copyright violating very close paraphrases.  It was created 13 months ago. The incident that launched the CCI occured 11 months ago.  Epeefleche's claim that he did this only early in his career and hasn't for years, is simply not true. He continued on with his copy and paste with a few minor changes approach - despite warnings from me and Moonriddengirl in February and March 2010 - until the CCI started in December 2010. After which, I gather, there was a significant change.
 * On the original topic, I'd agree with Bali ultimate, that there are other major issues here besides the copyright. Ones that unfortunately WP is very poor at sorting out. --Slp1 (talk) 23:31, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I did look at the targeted killing article, and the five excisions mkat made, as "close paraphrasing", prior to nominating the article for deletion, as containing too many copy violated passages. The article did contain passages that violated out copyright policy.  And I looked at the article's revision history, thinking about confirming or refuting whether epee had originally been responsible for those copyright violations.  Maybe there is a tool that can trace who is reponsible for a particular passage -- *-if so I am not familiar with that tool.  I decided not to do that check.  The revision history is long.  If, for the sake of argument, epee did introduce the copyvio material, but did so prior to the CCI when he was brought to an understanding of copyvio, is his responsibility for those copyvios relevant in a discussion for blocking him in November 2011?  While epee made the largest contribution to the article, five other contributors made 75 edits between them.  Do you know that they weren't responsible for the introduction of some of the copyvio material into the article.  Geo Swan (talk) 17:56, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is a tool. It is called  WP:WIKIBLAME.  All of the copyright infringing material noted by mkativerata was introduced by Epeefleche here.  But this is another red herring.  Epeefleche has not been blocked for introducing the material; he has been blocked for disrupting the cleanup of the violations. And frankly, you are not helping very much either, because you are asking other people prove to you things that you could figure out for yourself with a bit of time and effort. --Slp1 (talk) 18:32, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * To be fair to GeoSwan, it's important that people making these kinds of accusations have done their homework and can show evidence to support them. The informal and disorganized nature of the AN/I "dispute resolution" format (if you can call it that) seems to be a benefit in that it is not bogged down by bureaucratic procedures. But it's a double-edged sword in that the disorganized format means there's no predetermined high-visibility area where petitioners can lay out the evidence and where everyone else can expect to find it, as there is at WP:RFC/U. tl;dr: The price of a quick, to-the-point and informal dispute resolution process is that you sometimes have to repeat yourself. causa sui (talk) 18:57, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Slp1, I spent a bit of time and effort", I spent far more than a bit of time and effort looking into this. I am not at fault, have nothing to apologize for, for not being familiar with WP:WIKIBLAME.  Since you have used it, doesn't it show that all the copyright violations epee was responsible for were prior to the CCI investigation?  As for what I should or shouldn't be able to figure out from the record -- I don't see the record supporting what you and others have asserted, namely, "Epeefleche ... has been blocked for disrupting the cleanup of the violations."   When I look at Mkat's repeated unexplained excisions on November 17th, I see Epee spent an hour making good faith attempts to address Mkat's concerns.  This was not disruption on Epee's part.   Every contributor, from the barest newbie, making their first edit, to the most experienced administrator, with a million edits under their belt, is under an obligation to hold themselves accountable for their edits.  None of us should make an edit we don't think we can explain.   Another thing the record shows is that Mkat was unable or unwilling to offer a meaningful explanation for their excisions on November 17th.  I suggest the record shows Mkat's attempts to explain the excisions since then have been contradictory.  I remain concerned that their reasoning is not based on policy.   Another thing the record shows is that -- instead of supplying a meaningful, helpful explanation Mkat left a very troubling threat to block Epee.  We entrust administrators with certain extra powers -- to be used accountably, responsibly, and whenever possible in an open and transparent manner.  Mkat's threat to block failed to be accountable and responsible on two grounds: first, mkat failed to be explicit on what actions Epee should avoid to avoid the block; second Mkat failed to point to the policy that would have authorized the block.  Frankly, I am very concerned that would have justified blocking Epee for making an additional good faith attempt to supply alternate wording that wasn't a "close paraphrase".   So far none of Epee's behavior seems disruptive to me.  What should a good faith contributor do when they encounter an administrator who issues vague threats to block them, threats they seem reluctant to explain?  I suggest initiating a collegial note on ANI is among the options.   I understand that CCI volunteers are frustrated with Epee.  But, I don't agree that anyone has offered any diffs to demonstrate that Epee has disrupted the CCI process.  Haven't all the problematic diffs offered here dated back to prior to the CCI investigation?  As such I suggest they are irrelevant if Epee is complying with our policies now.  I don't agree that the questions Epee raised about Mkat's exisions at Ilan Berman were disruptive.  Rather, I think it is important that the validity of those excisions be explained, and Epee's questions about the excisions, both on the article and here at ANI were completley justified.   To the extent the block imposed on Epee is due to those participating here taking at face value Mkat's assertions that Epee's questions about his or her actions were disruptive I suggest that this was an invalid, unjustified block.  Geo Swan (talk) 17:24, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your thoughtful post, Geo Swan. That precisely summarizes my take on this. Greg L (talk) 01:06, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


 * GS I think you are confusing copyright violations with Epeefleche tactics over the clean up process, when you write "Haven't all the problematic diffs offered here dated back to prior to the CCI investigation". Epeefleche had most of this year to clean up his/her own mess and chose not to do so. Since another editor has started to investigate the list, rather than co-operating, the tactics Epeefleche has employed is to generate fear, uncertainty and doubt over the good faith of the person who has restarted the clean up process after a lull of 10 months. I am not sure why you think differences are needed to show Epeefleche's behaviour. Epeefleche's initiation of this section "Deletions by involved editor under claim of "close paraphrases"; Mkativerata" is one example, another is the initiation of the the section Talk:Targeted killing. Both section headings are indicative of the tone and content of Epeefleche's comments on the clean-up process. This behaviour seems to be a continuation of the same tactics shown when the case was first opened. That is why Epeefleche's current block is in place.
 * As to your second point: By its structure the CCI investigation only looks at edits from the time that the diffs are added to the CCI investigation, therefore the process will only show up diffs prior to the start of the CCI investigation. At the moment there is an assumption of good faith that Epeefleche has stopped adding copyright material, (in this section no one has mentioned that they have done a systematic survey of Epeefleche's edits since the historical survey was done in January (If anyone has then it would be helpful if they would share their findings). If it had been shown that Epeefleche had over the last few months systematically breached copyright through close paraphrasing, or had blatantly copied text from copyright sources, then the debate would not be on what terms Epeefleche could resume editing, there would almost certainly be a consensus for a long block. -- PBS (talk) 01:06, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Geo Swan, I'm going to try to take Causa sui's advice that information may have to be repeated on this board, so here goes. You say that you "don't see the record supporting what you and others have asserted, namely, "Epeefleche ... has been blocked for disrupting the cleanup of the violations."".  The evidence is above in the section  entitled "Request for a block", including mkativerata's request, which includes several diffs, and the comments that following including Tim Song's comment on blocking "Blocked indef. Any admin may unblock when they are satisfied that Epeefleche will no longer disrupt the CCI."  It is also clear from Epeefleche's blocklog and from the  block notice on Epeefleche's talkpage. S/he was not been blocked for the copyvios or plagiarism. S/he was not blocked for disputing mkativarata's edit on Ilan Berman.  S/he has not blocked for bringing this to ANI.  S/he was blocked for 4 days later for failing to hear what experienced, uninvolved editors were telling and particularly forthe actions on Talk:Targeted killing and Talk:Muslim Arab Youth Association.  The block was supported 14 editors (including multiple administrators and one arbitrator) and opposed by 4, including yourself. You may not find Epeefleche's behaviour disruptive, but the bulk of editors clearly do. --Slp1 (talk) 14:35, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Proposal to reduce confounding and clarify potential copyvios
Proposal: Mkativerata is directed to make separate diffs for each potential copyvio found, and to include in each such diff the words "potential copyvio".

Rationale: This proposal is in reference to this diff. The associated edit comment is, "Rm a couple of close paraphrases and fix a couple of quotes."
 * 1) There was no functional need for Mkativerata to merge these four edits together.
 * 2) Identifying the material as a "close paraphrase" has left ambiguous if other editors should consider the material to be a potential copyvio, or a non-copyvio close paraphrase.
 * 3) There are different copyvio cases to be argued for the two different close paraphrases. The second of the close paraphrases has been identified as a close paraphrase of a close paraphrase, and stuart.jamieson, in supporting Hobit, states regarding the second close paraphrase, "The material being paraphrased...does not begin to approach the threshold of originality required by law to assert a copyvio."  So it would have helped the analysis had the second close paraphrase not been combined with the first close paraphrase.
 * 4) Here is an effort by Geo Swan to sort out the confusion that has resulted from the confounded diff. Unscintillating (talk) 01:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose as it would needlessly slow down and complicate the CCI and is out of keeping with CCI practice to begin with. The presumption with editors in Epeefleche's position is that all of their content is problematic. CCIs are intended in part to avoid having to invoke the provision of Copyright violations that would result in the presumptive deletion of everything he's added by at least making an effort to identify when articles are problematic. Standard practice on finding copied content from a CCI contributor in any such article is to assume that the rest of the content he added to the article should also be rewritten, not to say "Oh, he copied these four sentences. Let's see if the other two are okay." If edit summaries are confusing to other editors, a better summary might be "removed per Contributor copyright investigations/Epeefleche" as this includes in its second paragraph directions for contributors who want to help fix the issue or are confused as to what the issue might be. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:54, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

'Oppose WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY especially the mention of instruction creep. The CCI project has a huge backlog and jumping through hoops  is lower priority than fixing theft of copyright. Of course, if those who support this proposal were to show as much interest in dealing with the backlog as complaining about those doing the work, the CCI project might eventually be able to afford the luxury of being able to converse with obstructive POV-pushers. Epeefleche had plenty of opportunities to help fix a problem of which (s)he was the primary cause but seemed more interested in making trouble.--Peter cohen (talk) 17:26, 27 November 2011 (UTC) Oppose The imposition of this sort of petty restriction (which will get pushed onto other editors as well) will merely discourage anyone from trying to clear up problems in case they too get attacked as well by the original offender or their supporters.Nigel Ish (talk) 17:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Semi-support I agree with the underling premiss behind this proposal. But I think it amounts to arguing about where best to put the tourniquet after someone steps on the land mine; I’d rather steer clear of the land mine. I think there are better ways to avoid the conflict and the resultant wikidrama, and I’ve proposed it, above. Epeefleche made a mess and has left it to others to fix it all. IMHO, the proper way to get on with what is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby for us all is to make the restoration of Epeefleche’s editing privileges contingent upon his cleaning up his past articles at a certain rate—perhaps one a week or something like that.  Greg L (talk) 02:29, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose requiring editors working on massive CCIs in a massive CCI backlog to jump through bureaucractic hoops. Maybe Unscintillating can try doing some CCI work to see how unworkable this idea is. --Mkativerata (talk) 03:01, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose LOL—as if the CCI people don't have enough work to do. Johnuniq (talk) 03:39, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose Per MRG and John. causa sui (talk) 04:04, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose Per MRG, John and my minor experience (compared to those such as MRG) working on copyvio issues. R OBERT M FROM LI &#124; TK/CN  04:29, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Unworkable bureaucratic wonkery. 04:42, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment So is it fair to say (with the exception of MRG who has commented regarding the edit comment) that those opposed are in favor of confounded edits and ambiguous edit comments?  Unscintillating (talk) 04:56, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's fair to say that this isn't a question that should be dignified with an answer. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:17, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose pointless complication of CCI work. The original edit summary was quite clear.  MRG's suggestion of linking to the CCI might help; some editors might view it as a sort of branding, but it might be worth noting that the removal is happening under CCI rules.  But the notion that identifying a copyright problem ought to open a lengthy negotiation over incremental fixes to the text is not just an unreasonable burden on CCI investigators; it also won't fix the copyright problem.  Filling the history with a series of small steps from the original text to an ostensibly different version merely records the proof that the text is a derived work.  The only way to fix it is to remove the text and write a replacement from scratch.  (Nor is it reasonable to expect a CCI investigator to do the second part of that.)  Kanguole 12:43, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose as a needless complication for people trying to get this work done and counter to existing policy and practice.  Hut 8.5  17:23, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Trying to comment on this proposal in detail might not be good for my blood pressure, so I won't. Hans Adler 17:32, 27 November 2011 (UTC)