Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive791

I feel I am being harassed by Pro-Israel editors, and Admins, over a simple mistake.
I made an AfD for an Israeli MMA fighter, because I felt they failed WP:NMMA, and didn't know it allegedly passed GNG

I then come back after watching a movie with my girlfriend to find this harassing message on my page, bring up old stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:IronKnuckle&diff=547692851&oldid=546995655

An admin Drmies has personally attacked me over this matter, and said he'd gladly accept a warning for that, that's blatant violation of wikipedia policy, and disgusting that an admin would do such a thing, here's proof: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Drmies&diff=547730669&oldid=547730143

Another admin closed out the AfD with a speedy keep, which I think was a wrong move, although he was not harassing me. But it says he is Pro Israel on his page, his name is The Bushranger.

Another person in the AfD's name is Schmidt, which sounds like a name of Jewish origin.

I feel I am being attacked by many editors and admins, just because I nominated an Israel related topic, everyone of them has a conflict of interest. I am trying to say as calm as I can in this situation. But I request an admin with INDIFFERENT opinions on Israel help settle this matter, thank you. IronKnuckle (talk) 02:11, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "Another person in the AfD's name is Schmidt, which sounds like a name of Jewish origin." Are you sure that you should be contributing here? That is an utterly stupid thing to say. - Sitush (talk) 02:16, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * ^Thats a personal attack right there. I'm saying wikipedia is not a place for Zionism. It sounds like a conflict of interest. IronKnuckle (talk) 02:17, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Your saying that the editor being named Schmidt sounds like a name of Jewish origin - that is very much a personal attack. Also, the statement that I "closed out the AfD with a speedy keep" is erronious; I !voted in the AfD in question, but did not close it. Also, I once again find it dissapointing that there would be an assumption of bad faith in that I would act in a biased manner in an admin (or editing, for that matter) capacity. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:20, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Schmidt is German and North Dakota is full of those bastards... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 03:20, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, I wasn't going to say anything to this person here--but "Schmidt" "sounds like a name of Jewish origin" is interesting. It could be true! And it's blockable. We're dealing with a disruptor here who, as a last resort, pulls a pro-Israel conspiracy out of his ass. Michael, I'm sorry that even you had to be dragged in here. IronKnuckle, I give you a half an hour--unless everyone is watching the Duke game, of course. Maybe a pro-Palestine (?) admin can tell this person what's what? Drmies (talk) 02:18, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Drmies, I think you should answer for your personal attack, you are an admin, and you are supposed to set an example. But you are an involved party, and admitted you are Pro-Israel, which means you have a conflict of interest. IronKnuckle (talk) 02:21, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it does not mean there is a conflict of interest. Please point to the policy that says that it is. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:23, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:BOOMERANG *please*, this person is using (false) racism to try to get his way, and it's just not acceptable (imo). gwickwire  talk editing 02:19, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have indefinitely blocked the user for disruptive editing, personal attacks, and disruptive AfDs. The editor was lucky to have only been blocked for two weeks for sock puppetry in February. This editor is not here to contribute constructively to the project. I'm about to go off-wiki (dinner), so another admin may feel free to act in any way they feel is appropriate with respect to the editor.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:27, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you, as I am offended by a personal attack based upon racial and religious bigotry... unfounded and untrue as the intended aspersions may be.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 02:34, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Someone please please go push the talkpage button to *off* now. This person doesn't need it at all, and isn't going to use it for what it's supposed to be used for while blocked. gwickwire  talk editing 02:51, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I concur, captain. - The Bushranger One ping only 02:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Not sure I'm so much of a "captain", but ✅ by User:Acroterion a few seconds ago. I think we're done here then. gwickwire  talk editing 02:54, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * And the ironic thing is after being accused of being a Zionist five times in the one discussion, I had no idea whatsoever the one guy he AfD'd was Israeli until I looked at the article again trying to figure it out just now. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:02, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Amazing how many people forget the similarities between German and Hebrew sounding names, isn't it? ---User:DanTD (talk) 03:36, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yiddish should explain a lot... -- Jayron  32  03:58, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * On my father's side, my ancestry is Alsatian/French Roman Catholic... on my mother's, German protestant. I am neither pro nor con regarding articles on Catholicism, Protestantism, Germany, Alsace, or France.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 05:25, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * But are you now or have you ever been a member of an Oktoberfest planning commission? - The Bushranger One ping only 08:50, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Caste sanctions enforcement request
has been arguing rather strongly and without a lot of regard for Wikipedia policies on Talk:Ezhava, an article which falls under the general sanctions placed by the community on all caste-related articles. That's irritating, but since s/he's not edit warring on the article, can be managed to some degree. However, the editor has also repeatedly been aggressive and abusive. Previous attacks for which the editor has been warned (see the user's talk page) include and. The user was also warned of the caste-article sanctions in User Talk:Pnranjith.

Today, Pnranjith made, among others, this edit, directly insulting Sitush. It's time for this to stop. I think that the user's personal involvement in the underlying dispute (having to do with whether or not two groups of people are actually two different groups or one group with two different names) is making it impossible for the editor to follow Wikipedia policies, since his/her need to get the Truth into Wikipedia is making her/him unable to follow rules like WP:RS and WP:V. As such, I think it's likely that the encyclopedia would benefit from the user being topic banned. But I understand that such a move requires quite a bit more analysis on the part of the ANI community, and so I would be satisfied that the user is at least blocked for ongoing personal attacks, and made to understand that any more poor behavior will result in further/longer sanctions. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:01, 25 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Excuse the acronym soup but it is the WP:TE and WP:IDHT of this returning WP:SPA that concerns me more than calling me an idiot - plenty of people do that and sometimes they are right. In this case, I think it is caused by frustration: they think that I (and others) are using our policies as a means intentionally to deny what they consider to be true. Around April 2012, they got involved in an earlier version of this dispute when they hung on the coat-tails of, now they're hanging on to . NB: there are admins all over Talk:Ezhava but they can do nothing (assuming they want to) because of WP:INVOLVED (Qwryxian, Martijn Hoekstra, RegentsPark, Drmies and also the ex-admin Boing! said Zebedee). - Sitush (talk) 19:28, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, ANI, my favourite noticeboard. There is indeed a mess over at that page, focussing around the mess SPA's, if not tigers are causing there. There is a constant influx of IP editors and new SPA's who consistently hold the same viewpoint, which suggest meatpuppeting. The personal attacks made by these SPA's should stop, because firstly, it can be immensely draining to deal with it for those facing it, and secondly, because it impedes reasonable discussion. (I'd like to quickly compliment Sitush on the patience he is showing, and the way he lets these things slide off him). The thing that is probably even more draining is the unwillingness to get the point. The personal attacks are fairly easily actionable: a clear warning that any future personal attacks may result in a block, followed by a possible escalating series of blocks is certainly possible. The question is what that would achieve. Blocks for these kinds of things may help the NPA thing (which is in itself a pretty big win), but will not fix the underlying issues, and will likely further entrench the unwillingness to get the point, which is in my opinion a far greater problem. ANI has already authorised discretionary sanctions. I would support that any editor or IP starting to make the same point that has already been made over and over be advised to edit further on wikipedia on different issues, warned that perceived problematic behaviour may be met with a topic ban, topic-banned for a month (but not immediately blocked! turning an SPA POV pusher with a dissenting voice into a Wikipedian who has a better grasp of how we deal with reliable sources, and how that relates to OR would be a huge win) if there is a clear indication of refusal to get the point, even if there no evidence, and that that topic ban should be enforceable by block. As I am somewhat involved, I would currently (just) like to advice both Irajeevwiki and Pnranjith to expand their editing scope, and spend at least as much time on non-caste related subjects broadly construed as on this issue. If others agree with my suggestion, and believe anyone should be warned I would strongly agree with some warnings here and there. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 20:03, 25 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I have blocked Pnranjith for 2 weeks for personal attacks. Decisions on what further actions to take (if any) can be made in the meantime - I would suggest a topic ban outright. Basa lisk  inspect damage⁄berate 00:55, 26 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I am new to wikipedia, but wikipedia rules and regulations are very easy to understand and i whatever i have done so far in wiki is by abiding wiki rules. Only started responding to Ezhava articles talkpage when i recognized a lot of mistakes in the Ezhava page  a few weeks ago, I believe    wont object if i say that  since we started this communication in Ezhava talk page, he had made so many amendments to the article. He took off sub caste section completely, because i pointed out that there was no valid reference for that claim.  He has tweaked many times the article and it is getting better. But with only one thing still cant agree with, that is "Thiyyar". I will say again that Thiyyar is completely distinct from other castes and should not be merged with Ezhava.

Sitush is confused with Nossitor books, just like Sitush many other writers got confused and followed what Nosittor has written about thiyyar. I repeat that again, Nossitor was a political writer he was helping Kerala Communist Party by writing a book which portrays Ezhava and Thiyya same caste for political gain. Please have a look the valid and genuine book written by Ritty A lukose, Edgar Thurston, T Damu, Dr. CJ Roy,  Dr. Muhamadali and so on. I can supply more book references but no point of giving valid and genuine book references,  just ignore it by saying **NOT RELIABLE**  I feel sometime like   is legislating own rules here and only ready to accept those book references which come inlines with his views which is completely wrong.

Ritty A Lukose http://books.google.com.au/books?id=R5gNOdw9E_0C&pg=PT269&lpg=PT269&dq=The+blindness+of+insight:+Essays+on+caste+in+modern+India+(Chennai:+Navayana,+2006)&source=bl&ots=B2pj6tuyzg&sig=8Nk9Rgn0gzUktwXJb8_ci4qyF50&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lf9DUc3CMeuaiQe87ICAAQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=tiyya&f=false

Dr CJ Roy

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Pd8aAAAAMAAJ&q=tiyya++and+ezhava&dq=tiyya++and+ezhava&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T4pOUbSlLsTRkwXskIFI&ved=0CFYQ6AEwBg

Dr Muhammadali http://www.scribd.com/doc/54685053/Colonial-Knowledge-Nationalism-and-Representations-Readings-from-Malabar

There is a big controversy going on about Thiyya / Ezhava castes at the moment,  http://www.hindu.com/2004/09/03/stories/2004090310670500.htm. I request wikipedia admins to either stop Ezhava article until this issue gets resolved or publish Two different articles for both Ezhava and Thiyya. An article is still waiting for approval in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Thiyyar which has been written in a neutral point of view and it just explains only the Thiyyar caste, culture and history. Because of POV fork issue this article cant get published.

I have placed a POV check tag in Ezhava page and we are discussing in ezhava talk page as per wiki rules and I dont know why   tries to impose sanction on me, I am here trying for a consensus by discussing. If you stop someone by imposing ban or sanction then it would be unfair to that person. Irajeevwiki (talk) 02:12, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * What you are doing right now is demonstrating your issues with WP:IDHT. Ritty A. Lukose has been discussed on the articles talkpage. Edgar Thurston has been discussed on the articles talkpage. The paper from Muhammadali has been discussed on the articles talkpage. Damu has been discussed on the articles talkpage. You were part of most off those discussions - actually you started most off them. Time and time again we come to the conclusion that there are issues with the sources - either because they are flat out unreliable on the subject (Thurston), because what they write about the reliation between Thiyya and Ezhava is ambiguous or trivial (both off these in the case off Lukose). But here you are again, bringing up the same subject. Over and over. Were you not part off the original discussion? How many times will you still bring this up again? Until people start agreeing with you? You've had several uninvolved admins come in, and come to the same conclusions. But you keep on insisting that everyone is wrong but you, and the slew off SPA's that at best seem to have serious difficulties in reading the article, and at worst seem to be recruited as meatpuppets to echo a repeated sentiment, without bringing anything new to the table. Bringing up new sources is fine, even if together we come to the conclusion that we can't use it. But for the love off god, everyone is getting tired about hearing you bringing up Thurston yet again. You were part of the discussion. You know how it ended. Abide by it. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 09:49, 26 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I've been following the Ezhava/Thiyya thing (though I have not had the time to get too involved in it), and I agree with Qwyrxian, Sitush and Martijn Hoekstra. It looks like we have a concerted effort, both on-wiki and off-wiki, to raise the status of Thiyya - but nobody has offered any reliable sources to support their claims. Should the status change, it needs to be recognised by reliable sources *first* and then Wikipedia can echo those - the change cannot start on Wikipedia. This has been explained to the same protagonists over and over again, in repeated discussions covering the same ground - but they refuse to listen. This kind of caste-advocacy disruption is exactly what the caste sanctions were designed to stop, and I think we need to start enforcing them firmly on this topic. I suggest blocks and/or topic bans for editors who continue with these "wall of sound" attempts to overwhelm consensus and make changes in defiance of sourcing policy. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:28, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have to admit that I can understand the new editor's frustration, because there do, in fact, seem to be some primary sources that may support their version, and I even believe them when they say that their personal experience supports their preferred version. But, as Boing! says, we must follow our own rules on sourcing. If the Truth is so obvious, then, really, someone should have written about it somewhere...or, if they haven't (for some sort of political reason), then these new editors ought to try to find somewhere to write about it. Until that happens, however, we need to be able to reach a point where we don't have to keep having this conversation every 2 hours with the next new account. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:20, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The behavior of User:Pnranjith as documented here seems to be the exact type of thing that the caste sanctions were intended to address. I propose a topic ban of Pnranjith from all caste articles, per the usual phrase from [//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:General_sanctions/South_Asian_social_groups the sanctions log]: "All edits relating to any caste across all namespaces". At some point the editor could appeal to have the sanctions lifted if it turns out they can create a record of neutral editing in other areas. You can check the editors' comments at Talk:Ezhava if you want to study his work more carefully, being aware that he sometimes signs as 'Ranjith'. EdJohnston (talk) 15:19, 26 March 2013 (UTC)


 * A discussion is still happening in ezhava talk page, (talk) can't say that we have come to a conclusion on those book references subject.  I have read wiki policies and I'm doing things here as per wiki rules only. I'm not happy with decision of some admins to reject some authors books  just because the content doesn't come inline with their views.  I like to get senior admins attention into this.  Have seen above mentioned authors books used as references on many wiki articles. Even on ezhava, Sitush was using EdgarThurston books. When  the discussion got heated up he just remove it from the article and started saying Edgar Thurston not trustworthy. Edgar Thurstn is just example. Sitush and other admins who giving backup to him for the past many years have been rejecting all the books which I provided with valid and genuine reference, sorry to know that an editor can do anything here if he gets backup from SOME strong admins. 123.243.18.3 (talk) 19:03, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Even on ezhava, Sitush was using EdgarThurston books. - no I wasn't. Someone had used it and, yes, I removed it. This misunderstanding is typical of the problems being faced in the discussion. Who are you, by the way? The only edit by a 123.* IP on that talk page offers no sources. I do hope that you are not because the problems of socking have already been highlighted in the discussion prior to their recent block. - Sitush (talk) 19:26, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
 * There are no "senior admins" - in fact, admins have no say whatsoever on content and sourcing issues. If you disagree with the current consensus on a particular source and cannot obtain satisfaction on an article talk page, you can take it to either a relevant project talk page or the Reliable Sources noticeboard (but do be aware that repeatedly bringing up the same issues with no new information can result in sanctions against you) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:32, 26 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Pnranjith is still using his talk page to make personal attacks on Sitush and Qwyrxian - I suggest his block should be upped to indefinite and his ability to edit the page revoked. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:10, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * And in the last 24 hours the relatively new contributor has been attacking and making threats, resulting in me issuing a warning. This seems clearly to be co-ordinated off-wiki, as was suspected when the issues were raised last year. I am now becoming a bit irritated by it all, despite my earlier note here that these things originate in frustration with our policies etc. - Sitush (talk) 07:30, 27 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Pardon me Sitush, I have read what amal89 said in Ezhava talk page, i didnt see anything wrong with his comments. Whatever he said there is based on genuine and valid sources not sourced from novels or short stories. If you block people one by one then i would say this wikipedia site has been taken over by some people and no senior admins doing anything do stop that. I have noticed that you have banned docrun (I dont know it is correct username but you have mentioned in ezhava talk page) that means you will take action to those contributors who are expressing their opinion against you even though they are right.

Some people here mis using the general sanctions. Just blocking contributors by using this general sanctions. Helpless here. frustrated too Irajeevwiki (talk) 11:34, 27 March 2013 (UTC)


 * reading over his talkpage, I no longer believe Pnranjit is able to or willing to have any discussion not based on the idea that paid editors and admins are out to get him. I request him to be topic banned, and frankly see no other outcome than an indefinite block. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 08:06, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I was just coming here to mention the same legal threat and personal attack. Please note that Amal89 was already notified of WP:NLT (see these edits by myself and Martin Hoekstra). Amal's "defense" of "This is not a legal threat, but you should know that you will be prosecuted under the following sections of the IPC" is BS. The only way these types of articles is if we shut down the aggression, attacks, and bad faith editing ASAP. I'm a little to blame here, in that every time I show up at a new caste article as an admin, I invariably get drawn into the content dispute, and thus become unable to act administratively. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:54, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, wrt Pnranjith, I tried to selectively delete his comments on his talk page that contained a link to an attack website against one of the editors here (leaving all of the rest of the vitriol), but for some reason the link's still appearing in the history. Can anyone else figure out how to get it out of there? Note that I don't think that removal of such a blatantly offensive link violates WP:INVOLVED, but if it does, fine, desysop me; it's not worth that link appearing for even one minute more. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:03, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * These two need to be indeffed without talk page access - and I don't think anyone would be considered in breach of WP:INVOLVED to do so, not when we're dealing with blatant legal threats and blatant personal attacks (and clearly coordinated at that). This has to be stopped, and there is no way ArbCom is going to desysop anyone who stops it. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:18, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * PS: Qwyrxian, what you need to do is rev delete every intermediate revision from and including the revision in which the material was inserted, up to and including the last revision before it was removed. Currently there are three intermediate revisions, one by Sitush and two by me, which still contain the material - those also need to be rev deleted. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:22, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the info; I've got the diffs straightened out. As I said, all I deleted was the link to the off-wiki site making really unpleasant accusations against Sitush; I kept in all of his comments otherwise. If he starts up again, I may have to remove talk page access myself, but would rather someone else does it. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:58, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * If nobody else does it first, I'll be removing his talk page access tomorrow -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:02, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * And also, that off-wiki blog is so pathetic it's laughable - it says a lot about the intelligence of anyone who tries to push it as being true, if they think there's any chance it's going to be believed. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:05, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Pointing out someone's mistake is not a personal attack. Pointing out how legally incorrect this article is also not a threat. How can attribute the religious views of one caste to another one and say that it doesn't hurt them. Hurting the religious sentiments is bound by law. Every country has laws regarding this. Pointing it out is not a threat. Knowingly misguiding people, by writing articles based on lies and when genuine evidence is shown, trying to insult the people who are legally responsible for making those genuine sources and when someone says its not right thing morally and legally, saying that you are outside the jurisdiction of India as is evident from "I can assure you that the chances of India taking legal action against me or Wikipedia are as near to zero as makes no difference due to issues of jurisdiction..." is not correct either. I think If you people don't want others to give correct information, don't write pages on Wikipedia and spoil it. That's why you have blogs. Wikipedia is not for expressing your personal views. I gave those IPC's only so that you can go through it and make this article perfect. I had already assured Martijn the other day no legal action will be taken I was merely pointing it out to you as this article is clearly violating some laws, mostly the ones related to religious sentiments and knowingly giving wrong information. It's a mere guidance. I have no time to go behind this legal wild goose chase. Amal89 (talk) 13:59, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Accusing people of "knowingly giving wrong information" constitutes a personal attack, and I shall leave you a formal warning on your talk page - and if you repeat such attacks, you will be blocked from editing. Now, if you want to make changes to any articles, you and your ilk have been informed numerous times of how we work from reliable sources and not from what people claim is true without any independent evidence - and people are unlikely to waste their time explaining it to you again. So, work within Wikipedia's policies or get blocked - there is no third option. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:05, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Threatening people who brings genuine sources as evidence with 'block' also constitutes personal attack and spoils the 'Wiki' in Wikipedia. I think I should leave a warning on your page. If you don't want to change the article be bold and say it here that no matter what we wont change it. Stop making threats! You block me or don't block me makes no difference to me. If a person makes a mistake I'll point it out and I don't care about this so called block. Amal89 (talk) 14:19, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've explained the difference between identifying mistakes and alleging dishonesty on your talk page - please be very careful to distinguish between them should you wish to make future claims. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:46, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * PS: As for changing the article, please re-read what you have already been told several times about reliable sourcing. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:48, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

You are right. How about when someone shows a government document that clearly shows the two castes are considered different by the Government? And on wikipedia an editor still uses the word 'official' to claim that the two castes are same. This is evident from this "The Ezhava and Thiyya communities are officially treated as one...." Doesn't this make a deliberate dishonesty? And that is why I said from now on keeping this article as it is will constitute knowingly giving wrong information. I don't know who wrote it in the first place. The article itself is the culprit. And of course I understood about the reliable sources. Next time when I see a news article on some local evening newspaper or in some fiction novel or a story in some book aimed for children teaching them about religion, or about a case filed by some organisation that never existed, sure, I'll definitely bring it here as reliable source. Amal89 (talk) 15:10, 27 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Hm, as of 90 minutes ago you were still engaging in conduct unbecoming a Wikipedia contributor, as per your note here. These wild accusations really do have to stop. - Sitush (talk) 17:26, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

I think you should take a look at this before you shout around saying there is a legal threat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_overlook_legal_threats You have no idea what the article is about. Associating the revered deity Sri Muthappan of thiyya caste to the ezhavas is same as writing an article saying that Prophet Muhammed is the prophet of Christians. It's baseless and a lie and also an insult. You somehow don't get the message. Let me write it for you from Wikipedia itself.

Don't be a DOLT – stop and think. Always check basic facts before making assumptions Never unblank biographies without asking why the IP might be blanking it. Remember, you could be personally responsible for re-publishing libellous content.[2][3] Not good. When a legal threat is made, step back and ask "why?" Maybe there's an obvious reason, and you could help the victim rather than increase their woes. How would you feel if it were you? Don't let policies like no vandalism and no legal threats lead to your editing cluelessly and adversely affecting some innocent person's life by your thoughtless action. Wikipedia has real life consequences; Wikipedia is not a video game. If you aren't sure what to do with a legal threat, email the WMF's legal department at legalwikimedia.org where specially authorized users and staff can assess the situation. Amal89 (talk) 17:41, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 1. pointing out you will be blocked is not a "threat" or a personal attack; 2. your comments above indicate you refuse to get it. The status of something or someone as "revered" is irrelevant on Wikipedia. Verifiabilty, not Truth is how Wikipedia operates. Wikipedia is not censored because some, or any, religion might find content "insulting"; your repeated accusations of "lying" also don't help make a case that you're here to improve the encyclopedia. Take a deep breath, step back, and re-read what has been said to you, considering that they might have a point, and that you might possibly be mistaken, and consider the advice you've been given, please. - The Bushranger One ping only 17:53, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

I gave proof, verifiable ones. Not some legend from a fairy tale. But documents from Government of India itself. And they are in denial for some strange reason. This kind of behavior really do shed light on something vile, and yes I am doubtful of the credibility of Wikipedia when such pages are allowed to be made, and also when someone brings in a new verifiable evidence, they are either threatened to be blocked. Amal89 (talk) 18:03, 27 March 2013 (UTC)


 * is accusing me of socking as . Of course, they cannot file a report at WP:SPI until they've served their week's block or have had that block lifted. However, they are also referring to a blog where they plan to post "evidence". To avoid this accusation festering for a week and perhaps gaining some traction among existing SPAs and likely-to-surface new ones, would it be possible to nail the issue now, perhaps by someone doing a CU? It could save a lot of hassle, especially if the blog does exist and has a Tiyya readership. I don't mind someone running a checkuser on me, although I can't speak for Qwyrxian, of course. Ahem. - Sitush (talk) 21:08, 27 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm completely uninvolved here, so I just want to clarify something. Amal89, no one is saying that the evidence is what's blockable. What's blockable is the repeated accusations against other Wikipedia editors. As to the source, the trouble with government documents is that they only show what that particular branch or office of government has decided, not the government as a whole. This is why primary sources are discouraged.
 * As to your comment that associating that deity with that group is "an insult" has no bearing on Wikipedia. You stated earlier: "Hurting the religious sentiments is bound by law. Every country has laws regarding this." That's actually incorrect. The United States does not have laws about hurting religious sentiments, and Wikipedia is based in the USA. While it may be impolite to insult a religious belief it is not illegal. Laws in other nations do not apply. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite
 * I try to be understanding, and I appreciate the carefully considered words of other uninvolved users here, but personally, I'm sick of telling Amal (and before him, Prjanath, and a few others on the page) the same, simple things over and over again. Government documents are WP:PRIMARY sources, and as such are very rarely useful as sources on Wikipedia. The specific sources provided are definitely useless here; these are definitely useless, because they don't explicitly state what Amal (and others) claim they state, and so to use them would require original research to interpret the actual distinction between the castes. But what Amal and others seem to be refusing to hear is that even if we could discover the Indian government's definitive position, we still would not make our article conform to that. We would certianly include their opinion, but we have numerous highly reliable academic sources that state that the two groups are the same. So, at best, we would include both claims; we would never just take one government's position as "truth". Of course, we cannot do that until we actually get a source that clearly states what they claim to be the truth. If Amal and others don't want to understand/follow our policies, then, ultimately, they need to find another website to be involved with. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:42, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

We do understand the Wikipedia policies related to primary sources. All we are saying is the secondary sources you say are good are not trustworthy, as we have enough proof but as primary sources. That is why I never asked to include or make specific changes. Until a reliable secondary source that also agrees with the primary sources are obtained, this article is not going to be of use to anyone. All it leads to is more arguments and accusations. I don't personally know the other users who criticize this article. I came here as a reader, saw that the article is incorrect and decided to signup with wikipedia only to report this issue. Amal89 (talk) 04:41, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

This is another proof but from Wikipedia itself. This is an article about the deity itself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muthappan, no where is it mentioned that the deity is worshipped by ezhavas as claimed by the controversial article. Even the word ezhava is not mentioned in this article. This is as of the time at which this is written. The following line from the controversial article clearly states that  " The main deities of Ezhavas include Vayanattu Kulavan, Kativannur Viran, Pumarutan and Muttappan." which clearly contradicts the article about Muthappan. Inspite of all these proofs, the editors of the controversial article are unwilling to make changes, which naturally forces us to accuse them of having vested interests. Their claim about the reliability of the secondary sources is itself questionable. The contents of the article on Muthappan was not altered at the time of this writing. That page was last modified on 14 March 2013 and had no references to ezhava whatsoever, the article had also said that "The puja rituals and rites for Muthappan are performed by the Thiyya community." which clearly implies the controversial article is wrong. Amal89 (talk) 05:59, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Arghhh. Amal, you still just don't get it. We don't say "Okay, no primary sources in the article, but primary sources automatically win when deciding what secondary sources are okay." Here's the simple, easy rule: look at the primary source. Is there some fact from it that you can quote and understand with absolutely no knowledge of the field? If the answer is no, or "sometimes" or "maybe", then the source has no value for us. Period. The primary sources provided are between somewhat and extremely ambiguous. "Proof" is reliable secondary sources (and, sometimes, tertiary sources). Primary sources cannot, basically by definition, prove secondary sources wrong. And Wikipedia (along with all other texts that can be freely edited) is never a reliable source. Please. Go find a reliable secondary source. Until you do, just please do us a favor and leave. Seriously, you're not helping here in any way, shape, or form. And at the same time that you're wasting our time here, you're insulting editors on the talk page and claiming we're part of some secret conspiracy to preserve apartheid (for others watching, see ). Right now, without checking, I couldn't even tell you which of these two "groups" is the light-skinned and which is the dark-skinned; I'm only vaguely aware of even what part of India this is in. I have absolutely no real world stake in this, other than ensuring that Wikipedia policies and guidelines are followed. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:24, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Of course I don't get it. I mean from a normal human's perspective. On one hand I have the following documents Driving License, Passport, Voters Id, Life Certificate, Death certificate, School certificate, Insurance papers, Tax papers, Bank papers and pretty much all documents that clearly shows the two groups are totally different. And then I got the observable things like skin color, eye color, culture; thiyya for obvious reasons can easily be said middle east ethnicity(the same as that of an egyptian) and then we have the ezhavas dark skinned, of aborginal ethnicity(like people from srilanka and also australian aborginals). Then on my other hand I have an article in Wikipedia that says the two groups are same (evidence secondary sources). How in the world could that make sense? One of these is clearly lying( either all the day to day use documents plus our eyesight or this article). You be the judge! This article in the newspaper 'The Hindu' clearly explains this http://www.hindu.com/2004/09/03/stories/2004090310670500.htm. The hindu is a very reputed newspaper. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hindu Amal89 (talk) 14:39, 28 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Amal89 is "T. Damu" a scholarly source? Former journalist and writer and vice-president of Taj Group of Hotels? Has he submitted a peer reviewed thesis? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:38, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Yogesh, I have no idea whether T.Damu is a scholarly source or not. I couldn't find any details as to the specific study as mentioned in that article. But the krygistan origin was proved by others using DNA test and related studies. Especially the works of Cardiologist Dr. Shyamalan. This is an article from the Times of India about this http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-01-25/kochi/30662805_1_origin-dna-testing-kyrgyzstan Amal89 (talk) 18:14, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Amal89 I'll give you a simple example, there is a polytechnic in my town, it used to be called Khopoli polytechnic, now it is called B. L. Patil Polytechnic, however the source cited, is an older one which mentions the name as Khopoli polytechnic, the name change isn't covered in reliable sources, so Wikipedia continues to call it Khopoli polytechnic, I know the name has changed, how ever I may as well be a dog. The principle that Wikipedia works on is verifiability and not truth. Also to my knowledge this forum AN/I isn't for content disputes, for that there are other places. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 18:42, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Close?
Warnings have been given, personal attacks appear to have subsided, Yogesh is trying to help with some good advice on user pages, and there seems to be some positive discussion happening at Talk:Ezhava. So how about we close this here, and take the content discussion back to article talk pages where it is supposed to be, with the proviso that any further personal attacks (which includes allegations of deliberate dishonesty) will be met with blocks? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:03, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Id like to ask any uninvolved admin looking to close this first to look over the contributions of everyone active on talk:ezhava, and check if any further warnings or other actions are warranted. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:25, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, sounds good to me. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:23, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I would request the closing admin to take wp:BITE into consideration, I can understand the frustration of editors who have been trying to beat certain articles into some sense (I don't say that I am happy with the result), but they are trying to make them comply to Wikipedia standards, and they are hurt when there are new editors who being unhappy with the contents, and with poor understanding of Wikipedia policies, war with the existing editors. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:23, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I can understand that point. But there is a big difference between reacting with simple frustration and making scurrilous personal accusations against honourable editors (like accusing editors of being paid large amounts of money to defame certain castes - supported by that ridiculous blog). Had I been an admin at the time, one contributor to this discussion would have been instantly blocked for that attack - and they will be blocked if they repeat it again (they have already repeated it once). I hope the closing admin will bear this in mind too. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:54, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Does Wikipedia want to grow or shrink? How have anyone's first hundred edits been? Anonymity on Wikipedia makes a person brazen, (one thing I've never hidden behind). If the accusation is rubbish, it ought to be treated like excreta that one may come in contact accidently while cleaning a toilet. Why create an issue? If something like that is thrown at me, I'd carry it like a medal on my user page, I think I carried the fact that I was called a Dravidian troll by Metapedia, but then I thought that boastful and discontinued doing so, I won't link it here, anyone interested needs just to use a few search strings to do so. My point is that these fellows are making mistakes that any newcomer makes, I don't condone them, yet please don't throw the baby with the bath water. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 08:49, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Zebedee regarding "But there is a big difference between reacting with simple frustration...": I said I can understand the frustration of those trying to make caste articles Wikipedia compliant and who are confronted with the deluge of IPs and newcomers who with relative poor understanding of Wikipedia policies edit war. I request the established editors to be a little patient. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 08:54, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * We have been pretty patient. Someone above even namechecks me on that score. A part of the problem here is that they are clearly SPAs: it would be easier for them and for the more experienced contributors if they diversified (and I realise that you have made that point on someone's talk page - thanks for that). - Sitush (talk) 09:02, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The vast majority of newcomers do not make the mistake of resorting to such personal attack at the first sign of disagreement. The editor in question made a personal attack, was warned about making personal attacks and had it redacted, then repeated exactly the same personal attack. That is simply not acceptable. But if the attacks have genuinely ceased (and I hope they have - your words to the newcomers will hopefully help, thank you), then there's no action needed now. But repeats will not be tolerated. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:11, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Did "little patient" sound like I'm accusing someone not being patient, well I didn't mean that, I request every one concerned to give new comers a longer rope. ( Indian English idiom used) Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:01, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * A man said to the doctor, "Doctor, I think I'm shrinking!" The doctor replied, "You'll just have to be a little patient." (sorry for that, but I couldn't resist) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:15, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * No, Yogesh, it did not sound like you are accusing one person and I did not mean to sound as if I took it that way, no worries. It is perfectly acceptable English English, US English, Canadian English, Australian English etc. I'd guess it might confuse, say, someone who speaks only Swahili or Vulcan. - Sitush (talk) 14:18, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

The last time I used "give the long rope" it was confused with "give enough rope" not what I meant then and not what I mean now. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 14:44, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Disruptive edits/POV-pushings by IPs
POV warrior/Ethnocentric IPs started to add disruptive content to these articles. E.G. changed ethnicity from Kurd to Turkish/Turkic, added unreliable content, removal of content, and edit warring with nonsense edit summaries. List of articles: Used many shared/dynamic IP addresses, you can verify recent version history of Ayyubid dynasty and Saladin. Thanks. Zheek (talk) 18:55, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Delhi Sultanate, List of Hunnic rulers, Template:Kurds, Balamber, Ayyubid dynasty, and Saladin.


 * Comment This is starting to become a real nuisance. As Zheek knows, we faced a similar situation across a large number of articles only days ago. Same thing then, repetitive POV-pushing with a Turkish nationalist agenda from dynamic IP addresses. Since blocking isn't an option, I'd recommend that we make a list of all affected articles and semi-protect them.Jeppiz (talk) 19:00, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Articles in need of protection
As the issue was brought up here, I recommend we continue it here rather than filing a report for each article. The following articles are currently affected by the same POV-pushing dynamic IP that already has forced us to semi-protect a large number of articles. I would recommend a long period of semi-protection as this person (the same as we've had problems with before per WP:QUACK is very persistent. Jeppiz (talk) 19:09, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Template:Kurds
 * List of Hunnic rulers
 * Balamber
 * Saladin
 * Ayyubid dynasty
 * Iranian peoples
 * Mamluk Sultanate (Cairo)
 * Al-Aziz Uthman
 * Al-Mansur Nasir al-Din Muhammad
 * Al-Adil I
 * Al-Kamil
 * Al-Adil II
 * As-Salih Ayyub
 * Al-Muazzam Turanshah
 * Al-Afdal ibn Salah ad-Din
 * Al-Mu'azzam
 * An-Nasir Dawud
 * Al-Ashraf
 * As-Salih Ismail
 * An-Nasir Yusuf
 * Shirkuh
 * Al-Mansur Ibrahim
 * Al-Ashraf Musa
 * Al-Muzaffar Umar
 * Abu'l-Fida
 * Al-Afdal Muhammad
 * Az-Zahir Ghazi
 * Dayfa Khatun
 * Turan-Shah
 * Al-Awhad Ayyub
 * Modu Chanyu
 * Idanthyrsus
 * I agree with Jeppiz. I've mentioned some articles in previous report (reported by Jeppiz): report. Those IPs targeted on many articles. Mostly articles about Middle East/Central Asia/South Asia history (empires, dynasties, rulers, ethnic groups, ancient peoples, and other similar articles). Zheek (talk) 19:32, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * See this IP contributions: 1.
 * List 2:
 * Mamluk Sultanate (Cairo)
 * An-Nasir Yusuf, As-Salih Ismail, Al-Aziz Uthman, Al-Mansur Nasir al-Din Muhammad, Al-Adil II, Al-Mu'azzam. All of them are Ayyubid rulers and the IP changed category "Kurdish rulers" to "Turkic rulers". Zheek (talk) 20:13, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

If there's consensus that there is a problem here, would an edit-filter request potentially help address it? Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:20, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Perhaps. The problem is that the user operates from a quite wide range. There are a large number of different IP adresses involved this time, and there were a large number in a similar attack (I can find no other word) only a few days ago. Then all targeted articles (that we found) were semi-protected. I'm afraid we're only seeing the beginning of this. This user is intent on making everything from Beijing to Budapest Turkish, including all of India, the Middle East and Egypt. I'm quite sure we'll see a similar campaign by the same user tomorrow or in a few days, then with new IPs again.Jeppiz (talk) 20:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Update The user seems to be back online again, with yet another IP and has started redoing all of the same edits. Would an admin please semi-protect the articles in the list above? We are quite a few users who are reverting this person with all the IPs but as this seems to be his main way of spending time, it's quite hard to keep up.Jeppiz (talk) 20:56, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * This has already been discussed at the AN noticeboard and has issued two rangeblocks of /16s for involved IPs. A similar list of affected pages is also up at WP:RPP, so I'm closing this thread. De728631 (talk) 17:20, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

IP evading block
Could I get someone else to a look at  and ? It looks like. They all geolocate to the same town. I'd rather walk away from this situation for now in any administrative capacity. Feel free to undo anything I've done there. Thanks. Toddst1 (talk) 19:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Toddst1 doesn't know what he is talking about I live off of 59 and 610 in an apartment complex nowhere near Pearland. And I'm not the person he is talking about anyways. Dude has serious issues and needs to take a chill pill from the look of his edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.196.234.1 (talk) 19:43, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * They're obviously the same person, so I blocked 98. for about the same period as 76. and with no talk page access to match.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:24, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Note that someone claiming to be this IP hounded us in -en-help (to the point they were kickbanned), and tried everything under the sun to get unblocked. I'd support a really long block if it wasn't dynamic, but they claim that it was just so coincidental that someone made the same edits as them within 30 minutes of an IP getting blocked, etc. Support block, basically. gwickwire talk editing 21:15, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Those are Comcast addresses. You can block them for much longer (like 6+ months). Elockid  ( Talk ) 22:28, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * For some information on the history of this saga, please see Sockpuppet investigations/FaheyUSMC/Archive. Not saying it's his sock, but it may be meatpuppet related. Seems the LICD forums are gone forever. Elizium23 (talk) 23:32, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I highly doubt that wouldn't have collateral damage, if he could IP hop in 30 minutes, who's to say his old IP isn't already someone else? gwickwire  talk editing 23:38, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The addresses are not like most other ISPs where resetting the router means that they have a new IP (I would say with great confidence that the IP hop is due to changing locations/using a different network. Again, I say with great confidence that if there was a new person, it would be a friend, family member, etc.). See Sticky dynamic IP address. Elockid  ( Talk ) 23:57, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. Anyone want to extend blocks? gwickwire  talk editing 00:04, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I support a block extension of Because he came into -en-help today under the username DavidP and stated "f#$% it. you showed me why I should never actually improve wikipedia so from now on I f#$% it up" TucsonDavid U . S . A . 15:57, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Admin tired of being on the lam
I can't do it anymore, I can't keep running from it. I must own up to my misdeeds--here I stand before you, like a virtual Dimmesdale: I called someone an idiot on my talk page. What's worse, I am so reprobate, my heart is so hardened, that I can't even bring myself to feeling sorry about it. I also said that I support Israel, even though I neither support nor unsupport that country--I said it for effect. Mea culpa. Can I borrow someone's hairshirt? Feel free to trout, whale, or NPA-template me. (I'm kind of not sure if I spoke as an admin or an editor, but I'll leave that up to you.) Drmies (talk) 02:03, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * That was uncalled for, and you know it. IronKnuckle (talk) 02:12, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Drmies ...I wish I had something left in my heart to reply to that.  You're a good man, .. take that to your soul.  That's all I've got to say. — Ched :  ?  03:47, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * /me lets the trout nibble at Drmies for a while. — Huntster (t @ c) 03:59, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Someone could just call her an idiot and even out the karma - call it done. Toddst1 (talk) 05:39, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I think Drmies is actually a "him", unless the userbox on his page isn't a lighthearted joke. =/ Kurtis (talk) 12:05, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I had already applied a special block to Drmies for incivility while this was being closed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:20, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see why, Moni3 called PumpkinSky an idiot, a dingus, and blocked him, and nothing was ever done to her. Guess it is who you know.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:58, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't block anyone for the simple offense of calling someone an "idiot", regardless of who it is. I did let Drmies know that it isn't an acceptable term, even if with a little humor.  This is no different than I would do with anyone else, taking a singular event and simply saying "Don't do that".  If I were favoring him, I would have said nothing, or defended the action.  It was inappropriate.  Not blockable, but inappropriate nonetheless.  I can't speak to what someone else did or would do. Dennis Brown - 2¢  © Join WER 13:41, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Wehwalt, dealing with difficult editors is sometimes exasperating, and sometimes too exasperating. I seem to invite such cases; I suppose you don't. It's probably best to say "Editor x's edits are idiotic" rather than say "Editor x is an idiot", but you'll have to admin that the difference can sometimes be just semantic and not a matter of civility. With your user name you could have been accused as well of this ridiculous charge, and I hate charges of Zionism and whatnot that are so obviously idiotic. "Guess it is who you know" is a throwaway accusation and I'm disappointed to hear that from you: I can't think of a single admin/editor who'd be blocked for the same thing--and you know as many good people as I know, probably more. Also, I didn't block IronKnuckle; in fact, I unblocked him a while ago as an act of good faith. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 14:59, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Replied to on Drmies's talk.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:42, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Note read: thank you Wehwalt. Drmies (talk) 16:11, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Calling someone's edits "idiotic" is at least as insulting as calling the user an "idiot". Also, an editor who thinks Schmidt is a "Jewish" name may not be an idiot, but certainly is right much ignorant. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:31, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Wasn't there an episode of Eight is Enough with a similar theme? She assumes that a guy with a name like Meyer or Schmidt was Jewish, and makes him Jewish-style food, turns out he's got a German name and is entirely goyische.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:44, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Not many people realize that "Ken" is a Jewish surname, truncated at Ellis Island. "My" is a family name, and as for "Beyond" - well, back in the day my parents were hardcore Beatniks, man. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:18, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Promo-spammer on the loose


Howdy folks. User:Arpmuswikicontrib showed up in the last couple of days to promote his product, Pizzicato (software), developed by Arpege Music. Beyond the obvious username violation, he has tried to edit-war template messages out of the article and has removed an AFD notice twice.

In one post at the AFD he accused me first of having a financial interest in a competitor product and then having no understanding of such products so as to be qualified to comment. It's just getting silly. Block for... pick your option - edit warring, username vio, WP:NOTHERE, WP:PROMO, whatever. Cheers, Stalwart 111  10:45, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * ❌ per WP:NOTHERE and obvious IP sock edit warfare after warning. Basa lisk  inspect damage⁄berate 10:58, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I just amended my note - looks like a few of those times he was just not logging in. So not all of them were socking in the strict sense. But the rest... Anyway, thanks Basalisk - sorted. Feel free to close this. Thanks all. Stalwart 111  11:04, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * In a pretty straightforward case of WP:EVASION, the editor has now simply stopped logging in to his account and is now using IP 80.201.31.87 to continue edit-warring - removing the AFD notice from the article (again), posting unrelated stuff to the AFD itself and posting a long rant about people destroying "his work" on WP. I'm just going to boldly remove the stuff from the AFD but if someone could deal with the IP... Stalwart 111  14:40, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * He's IP hopping using dynamic addresses by the look of it, so I don't see much benefit in blocking. I've semi-protected the article instead, to stop further removal of the AfD tag. I guess we could do the same at the AfD if he continues, though I'd rather leave that to someone else as I'm not sure of the appropriateness of protecting an AfD discussion -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:59, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've seen it done in cases of meat puppetry, so I think it would be fine if the disruption keeps occurring. Non-autoconfirmed editors could just be directed to post on the talk page perhaps? IRWolfie- (talk) 15:06, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, sounds reasonable - let's see what he does next. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:36, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * And he's continued arguing in the AfD, so I've blocked the latest IP and semi-protected the discussion page. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:41, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks folks, appreciate it. Admin corps was on fire last night. Stalwart 111  22:02, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

"Parody", "comic parallel"
In spite of opposition in the talkpage RfC, the article being subject to WP:ARBPIA/restricted to 1RR, has engaged in s low-going 1RR edit war to remove political insignia from the Syria article. To top this off he saw fit to respond to talkpage opposition with a tirade about how his opponents are indoctrinated totalitarianist "comic parodies" and whatnot:

""I suppose everything in life has its comic parallel, so its only fitting that even here we should find comedic parodic versions of a Putin-China veto and the Russophiles who like to see the POWERful lock up people for miming in a church - I think preacher lads rather speechified "the legitimate government in Syria which is still in POWER and RECOGNIZED by the supreme global international organization; the UN. Nobody cares about the opposition representation at the Arab League. As long as the Baath government controls over Syria and the two stars flag is still rising over the headquarters of the UN and the Syrian embassies abroad," - is a bit pov possibly? maybe the news you see is controlled?censored? preacher lad and direktoo know everything. or do they just talk like they do.- - still, its good to see how factions argue and think - even in parody versions - imagine what the real things are like.""

The user is referring to Preacher lad and myself, two of the users opposing the edit he's managed to push in by exploiting everyone's adherence to the ARBPIA 1RR. In my view, the user has made it abundantly clear he's active on these articles out of deep political and national bias. Frankly I'm more than a little surprised to see something like that written openly by one such fellow. -- Director  ( talk )  18:22, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, i don't know why on earth I used the word 'comic' - it isnt in the least comic - stupid. as for edit warring that is 6 of one, half a dozen of the other - i have reverted it twice in 72 hours or something - is that not allowed. A 'soi-disant 'wikipedian who no longer gives a shit' has 'edit-warred' your preferred version back . so what? thats how it goes. there is no consensus.  what do you want - to shut up discussion? i cant see the point of this  Sayerslle (talk) 18:57, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * and after the 'wikipedian who no longer gives a shit' put back your version, its been re-inforced by an admirer of yours with this - "Exactly, DIREKTOR! Assad is king! And terrorists and their Western mentors need to fight in a long, bloody struggle if they want to change that! Much bloodier and longer than up to now. You said: When the UN changes its position, or the rebels take over the vast majority of Syria, then we might have something to discuss. Hopefully, neither of that will ever happen!" - is this the sort of disinterested editing you like. fRankly I'm not at all surprised to see you let this kind of remark pass without the slightest demur. Sayerslle (talk) 21:34, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Let's all calm down. I have removed a rant from and a subsequent rant from an IP editor. Sayerslle, I think you should refrain from painting Direktor in Sundostund's corner ("an admirer of yours"): guilt by association only leads to diatribes. Besides, your representation of the discussion was incorrect: it wasn't Direktor who made that "hopefully" comment (now removed). Please. Drmies (talk) 22:41, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought it was enough for everyone to tell a difference between DIREKTOR's words and mine words if I put his words in italics. If some confusion emerged from that, I apologize. DIREKTOR didn't do anything wrong here. I also apologize if my personal opinion, stated on that talk page, violated WP:ARBPIA rules. It wasn't my intention, and it certainly won't repeat. Anyone who follows my work can see that I'm not a vandal, and that I almost never participate in political discussions on talk pages, but this case was an exception. I certainly don't plan to embroil myself in a long-term, futile political discussions here, or anywhere else. I'm a man of action, not words :) --Sundostund (talk) 23:35, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Ip editor changing religious from Islam to Sunni Islam
On various articles, and I am quite certain this would be incorrect. What action should be taken? Darkness Shines (talk) 21:05, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't understand the problem, are you disputing the facts or is it about style, we have Roman Catholic in place of Christian, what is the problem with Sunni Islam instead of Islam, please clarify? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 21:08, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You think all British Indians who are of the Islamic faith are Sunni? Darkness Shines (talk) 21:10, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I get your point? I don't know the statistic, though a source says that there are many Islamic sects in India, Sunni and Shia being two main groups.[ ]Yogesh Khandke (talk) 21:38, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * As I see it, the problem is that "others" is removed; as long as it's clearly giving just the predominant faiths, Sunni is seemingly appropriate for the British Indians, since Indian Shi'ites are a minority. Same concerns for the Filipinos, while with the Afghans, the only problem I see is that it might leave out people (if any exist) who see themselves as Muslim but neither Sunni nor Shia.  Nyttend (talk) 21:16, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I would use something like "Islam (primarily Sunni)". —&#91;  Alan M 1  (talk) &#93;— 21:49, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I note that the Philipine example above does admit that there are Protestants there, while also stating that Roman Catholics are the majority. I can see AlanM1's solution. Mangoe (talk) 22:50, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Concerns about an editor re-working warnings
I'm not sure if this acceptable, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:68.60.232.105&diff=next&oldid=547876154 but I was of the understanding that it wasn't.

I am requesting an admin advises or intervenes, as the user concerned has repeatedly added some rather strongly worded comments. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 21:17, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * It's been done close to 10 times now as well. gwickwire  talk editing 21:20, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Calling another editor a "traitor to the United States" is a pretty clear personal attack, which deserves a block. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:25, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * There is a "history" with this IP it seems. WP:NLT applicable? Sfan00 IMG (talk) 21:33, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Not really a legal threat, but plenty of gross BLP violations. The IP needs to be put on ice for a while. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:04, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't agree with this edit: if the editor wants to rant some, on their talk page, let 'em. They shouldn't be messing with other peoples' messages, of course, but Gwickwire, if they want to "comment" outside of some message I don't think you should remove it. I'll tell them not to do so. Drmies (talk) 21:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * After reading the EWN report I blocked two IPs, which is mostly symbolic since Algenon L. Marbley is now semi-protected, but they might continue their disruption elsewhere (like here). A block for edit-warring is reasonable anyway. Drmies (talk) 22:03, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't remember removing any comment they made outside of my messages, but if I did it must've been one of those caught-in-the-crossfire things, so sorry. Regardless, we may need a longer block/talkpage revocation later, he's still at his "freedom of speech" thing. By the way, the legal threat I saw was accusing people (and Wikipedia) of violating the first amendment right to free speech. gwickwire  talk editing 22:26, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I was rolling back their latest rant but you had already responded to it. Talk page privilege is revoked. Drmies (talk) 22:34, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * User talk:2livefree. User claims he's going to continue socking and that he isn't dropping his whole schtick. Someone wanna push the big shiny button? gwickwire  talk editing 23:54, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've indeffed . He has made his intentions pretty clear IMO. Chamal T •C 03:03, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey uhhh... Is anyone else worried about the tone he's taking? And I mean in a greater context than "worried he might keep on disrupting the project". Do anything in my power... didn't die in vain... acts of treason. Someone feel like maybe we should give the Marshals a heads-up? — PinkAmpers  &#38;  ( Je vous invite à me parler )  09:55, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * If you think it's a credible threat, there are appropriate off-wiki channels. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:39, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm not sure, which is why I was opening it up to discussion here. I'm always willing to file a report with  when I see a clear threat (I've done so twice, in both cases in situations where the threat was far from credible, but was blatant enough I felt it warranted reporting), but in this case the question is whether we should be inferring a threat from this guy, or not. —  PinkAmpers  &#38;  ( Je vous invite à me parler )  22:30, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The only threats I see here is a LTA-wannabe and/or someone who doesn't have their mental state completely in check. They continue on this "I HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO WIKIPEDIA AND ALL IM RIGHT WOOP" attitude. I'm not sure there's any emergency the WMF can do anything about, except some of the things he was putting on articles were pretty.. out there to say the least. If we're inferring a threat, there's the threat he may sue us for violating his (wrong) 1st amendment rights, or open a police case, but I'm not sure there's any more threat than that. gwickwire  talk editing 22:34, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism past block
IP address 71.50.181.102 vandalised their talk page despite being blocked for one week for heavy vandalism with the Yugoslav Dinar. Please see Special:Contributions/71.50.181.102 for history. Thanks. --Marianian(talk) 16:55, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Block extended, talk page access revoked. JohnCD (talk) 17:03, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Minor issue regarding younger user
Hi there,

I notice that User:Levi8806 has added some personally-identifiable information (including telephone number) to his user page. Bearing in mind that he appears to be quite young, it would probably be best to assume that he doesn't understand the implications or seriousness of this and it should be removed, preferably from the page history, by an admin.

I'd also say that the user's contributions towards Wikipedia were not especially helpful (and I've placed a couple of "test2" notices on his talk page), but I don't want to scare him off entirely as he may be able to contribute more constructively in future and I don't want to discourage him from that. Any thoughts? Ubcule (talk) 17:33, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Personal information now dealt with (to some extent) by Boing! said Zebedee. For future reference, requests for oversight of such information should go to WP:Requests for oversight, rather than being posted to this rather high-visibility noticeboard. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:40, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I've removed and rev-deleted the personal information, and I've left a brief message on his talk page. I've also removed your revelation of his age here on this page, as it's not wise to repeat such personal information. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:41, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's probably a good point; ironic as I was concerned about his privacy(!) I should have indirectly referenced it. Anyway, thanks for your help. Ubcule (talk) 17:50, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

His username and the userpage kind of gives the game away. Maybe a name change?-- Auric    talk  18:13, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Oddly enough, all that made me think of was old processor architectures. I do worry, though, that if there are really 456,421,458,695,647 people in his family, then there's both significant potential for WP:BROTHER issues, and also an impending problem with overpopulation. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:46, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm more worried about their apparent inability to spell, and the number of dodgy edits they have. I wonder if they're just too young to be competent at this stage. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 18:51, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I seem to remember another instance of this kind of thing happening somewhat recently.. But in all honesty, unless they break something, let's leave them with "Follow policies, and remember that we can stop you at any time" in a way they'll understand. Or a WP:CIR block for a time (maybe until at least 12ish, or more) to be determined. gwickwire  talk editing 18:55, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Since we have editors who started editing at age 10 and produced dozens of good articles by age 12, that arbitrarily chosen minimum age doesn't seem especially appropriate. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:00, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Would an indef for this account be appropriate, and then some kind of completely clean start when this editor is able to convince us they are competent? I'd imagine that would have to involve ArbCom, and don't know how it would work, but it's just an idea. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 19:13, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Meh, my point was more, telling them: "Let's wait until you're older. When you turn AGE, send an e-mail to ArbCom asking them if you may come back" gwickwire  talk editing 19:16, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Arbcom could perhaps decide on an indef with "please ask a parent to email arbcom if they feel it is wise for you to be editing Wikipedia". Or not, since the actual level of disruption is fairly limited so far. If we're not discussing disruption, then we're discussing child safety, which we should avoid doing here - concerns on that front should go privately to arbcom. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:20, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Civility Problem
I am really offended by the recent comments of Designate. He recently posted these comments on my talk page. There are a number of reasons why I was offended: The stubs you're using as models are unreferenced, unbalanced, poorly written horse shit. Not only is this untrue, but he cursed at me, which is a Civility violation. In addition, he said I should open my own encyclopedia because apparently he owns this wikipedia page. I was hoping you could give him a warning and tell him to have more respect for me.--Jerzeykydd (talk) 19:30, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Not commenting on most of this, but he didn't tell you to open your own encyclopedia, but to look at an existing one. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 19:34, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The only thing wrong with Designate's comments that I can see is the use of the term "horse shit". Otherwise, it looked like a well-reasoned explanation of why your edits to the Keating article are unconstructive - some of them are downright disruptive, actually. So, you want a warning. You've got it, but it's for you. Edit more responsibly, and don't bring baseless reports to this board.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:04, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Pretty ridiculous close. Boomerang? Of course superfluous use of terms like "horse shit" are incivil. Contrast: The former does not communicate anything more clearly or effectively than the latter; the profanity is distracting and therefore detracts from the message. Less is more. Additionally if an edit feels compelled to include a disclaimer "I don't mean to be uncivil " that's an indication the writer realizes the post may be perceived as incivil; rephrasing before hitting save is indicated. DB is correct there is no Wikipedia wide consensus that such comments are incivil, but neither is there a consensus they're not. I encourage Desiginate (and all editors) to avoid such phrasing in the future. NE Ent 21:19, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "The stubs you're using as models are unreferenced, unbalanced, poorly written horse shit."
 * "The stubs you're using as models are unreferenced, unbalanced, and poorly written."
 * Note what the user was calling horse shit, not something that this editor had done, but what they were using as a guide. There was no way for it to be taken as ad hominem, therefore, it was colorful language.  That is not incivil, even by strict standards.  You might call it crass, or vulgar, but it wasn't direct at the editor or their actions.  Again, context is everything.  Dennis Brown - 2¢  © Join WER 21:35, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

G5 (universities) article
I have tried to discuss the content of the article, however Rangoon11 has stated s/he will not even discuss the dispute, yet the user is continually just reverting some of the changes I have made without discussing the reasons why I think some changes are required, the reasons of which I have made clear on the talk page of the article in question. I would like to have just discussed it with the user in question on the talk page, yet am faced with I wont waste any more time discussing the article with you on this page.Rangoon11 (talk) 18:18, 31 March 2013 (UTC), I have added recently to the article in question helpfully, and can't understand why they wish to take this edit war approach.Hkong91 (talk) 20:01, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * This looks like a content dispute, the resolution of which is being stymied by the two of you edit-warring. Your last self-revert was a constructive move on your part. Why don't you go back to the talk page and discuss it with Rangoon, and any other editors who wish to participate, and stay away from the article until you reach a consensus? If you can't, there are dispute resolution mechanisms available, but edit-warring is not the answer, and that goes for both of you. It doesn't look to me like this problem belongs here.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:14, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Lauren Harries
This article is apparently being edited by a relative or relatives of the subject. The first edits were by the IP, and I had to rev/del the edit summaries because of personal information. I left a personalized message on the IP's talk page to try to get them to resolve any issues in the article without editing the article. No response. Then they registered an account and started editing more. I templated the account's talk page and then left a personalized message. No response. I've tried to keep any edits they made that were reasonable and undo those that were not, but it's not easy to do when they keep insisting on changing the article. They are also inserting legal threats in their edit summaries ("If changes are changed back, I will seek legal advice. Adam Harries - On Behalf Of The Harries Family" & "Please be careful about listing 'Arson' this is a very hot button legal situation"). I've improved some of the references (one was dead but available on Highbeam) and tried to make the language in the article closely hew to the sources, but the editor is more interested in whatever their "truth" is than what the sources actually say. The material about the father is controversial, and normally I wouldn't include it, but, here, it's relevant to Lauren's life. In addition, it's not just charges; it's actual convictions, so I see no WP:BLPCRIME issue.

I can't keep bouncing back and forth between their edits and mine. I'm already at 3 reverts. Counting the IP's edit, they have already violated WP:3RR. I just warned them for the edit warring, but I'm more interested in (a) getting the article "right" and (b) getting them to cooperate. As I said, some of their edits are helpful, and even the ones that are not cause me to more closely review the material, which is a good thing.

At this point I am stopping to permit others to review the situation. I will notify the registered account - no reason to notify the IP.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:36, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * So many people have conflicts of interest but we pick on those with usernames similar to the article name. As far as seeking legal advice, this is ok as long as they don't threaten to sue.  Threatening to block is a legal threat but we permit that.  Just be nice and explain to the user a right way to do things Bamler2 (talk) 05:56, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There needs to be a stern warning or block for NLT here, and a referral to WP:NOTCENSORED or maybe some more relevant page I've forgotten. gwickwire  talk editing 18:45, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The "Please be careful" thing could mean "please delicate, since we don't want to hurt the subject", but there's no getting around the "I will seek legal advice", so I've blocked and left instructions on how to be unblocked. Nyttend (talk) 20:51, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

The user Jenniepierce567 and his/her edits
Hi. I would like to report the user Jenniepierce567 because of the edits he/she has made for at least 7 months now. The user has been given several warnings, as you will see on her talk page (though the user might blank it after seeing the notice of this discussion). The only way for him/her to learn to do stuff like cite sources and add helpful information and teach the user to not vandalize or do distruptive edits. The user has had warnings for 7 months and now it is time to take action. Thank you for the help. -Connor (WorldTraveller101 &#124; talk &#124; contribs) 18:55, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The user doesn't "do" talk - unlikely she will blank her talk page. Customarily, you would provide some evidence (diffs) of her disruptive edits to justify bringing this here.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:06, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

OK. One piece of evidence is from March 29 (yesterday) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=O%27Hare_International_Airport&diff=547734544&oldid=547664280 In this, she gave a list of former airlines with zero sources. I'll get more evidence later as I find it. -Connor (WorldTraveller101 &#124; talk &#124; contribs) 20:35, 30 March 2013 (UTC) Also, according to Disruptive editing, it also includes people, such as this user who has had several warnings dating to 7 months ago! Also, she is definitely not a newcomer. I hate to do this, but '''I would like to request blocking her for a period between 12 and 48 hours. However, IF she continues, she'd be blocked indefinitley'''. Thanks for anyone's help. -Connor (WorldTraveller101 &#124; talk &#124; contribs) 01:26, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not vandalism, by any stretch. Disruptive, maybe. A quick look through the article history does show many of her edits get promptly reverted. However, this really is still just a content dispute. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 22:03, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * After having welcomed this editor last year, I notice that they do seem to routinely upload photos that are subsequently deleted as copyvios. In fact, I believe, but cannot verify, that every single image they have uploaded has been deleted as a copyvio (except the latest one, which is non-aviation related and happens to be at FfD right now for another reason). My intuition says that this is just an over-enthusiastic contributor, but I can see how having to repeatedly deal with copyvio images can get tiresome. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 22:40, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Special:Log/Jenniepierce567 shows that out of her six uploads, four of them have been deleted; two per F9, one per F7 and one per FfD. Nowhere near enough disruption in my opinion to warrant a block.-- Laun  chba  ller  23:53, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, it didn't occur to me to check the logs in that manner; I was using Special:ListFiles/Jenniepierce567 which doesn't show deleted files, so I couldn't trace their outcome. Good thing I qualified my statement accordingly! Regards, Orange Suede Sofa  (talk) 23:58, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

failure to AGF by user N-HH on Talk:Fascism
"Almost immediately after that RFC was concluded and the longer lead restored, an IP editor appeared and has begun undermining it and whittling away at it." User:N-HH to me on edits made to intro failing to assume good faith--184.145.67.28 (talk) 15:12, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * N-HH appears to have made a statement of fact. An IP (you, apparently) has done exactly what he says it has done. How is that failing to AGF? Writegeist (talk) 15:44, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * That seems an adequate summary of your edits User:N-HH linked to ("undermine", "whittling away") with no assumption on motives. For the record, N-HH announced at Talk:Fascism that they would be away for much of the rest of the long weekend. Huon (talk) 15:47, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * We also have some apparent socking: tagged. User:184.145.67.28 edits N-41's comment and then User:N-41 deletes his own comment (including his request to be banned, but continues his rant. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:17, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Been doing some comparing and I've blocked both 184.145.67.28 and R-41 two weeks each for sockpuppetry. This ANI clearly demonstrates the desire to deceive, thus abusing the IP account to avoid scrutiny. The other edits just tie it all together and make it obvious they are the same person. That is a permanent IP, so if the problem continues, then escalating blocks will be used. So the boomerang came full circle. Dennis Brown - 2¢  © Join WER 20:44, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Copyright problems
User:Kennvido has copy-pasted text ( and from,  from ) into articles after being warned in the past about copyright violations. This warrants a block and a WP:CCI investigation, correct? I can provide more diffs if necessary. Albacore (talk) 23:40, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * What is it and I'll reword. Sometimes in an effort to put things up, with absolute 'good faith' I may make a mistake. No biggy to complain about here...just go to my talkpage Albacore and don't be petty please or whiny or a cry baby. Just address me like an adult. Kennvido (talk) 23:54, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm discussing the situation with Kennvido on their user talk. The matter should be resolved shortly.  Tide  rolls  00:43, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Addressed matters. Kennvido (talk) 00:45, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

User:Doc glasgow making personal attacks on other users.

 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Doc_glasgow?diff=prev&oldid=46494842
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Doc_glasgow?diff=next&oldid=46494842

's only recent contributions  have been revert warring, blanking debates against policy ("A page listed for undeletion should remain on DRV for at least five days": Undeletion_policy) and talking to me so it's quite obvious he's calling me a " troll ". This is a personal attack (WP:NPA and he should be blocked for repeated personal attacks like any other user would. Bob, just Bob 00:28, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I do not see personal attacks in either of the difs you provide. Those statements are not aimed at anyone one person. He's only calling you a troll if you are one, no? --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - &lt;*&gt; 00:33, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * has been blocked by for a 3RR violation on WP:DRV.  Calling a spade a spade is not a personal attack. Kelly Martin (talk) 00:38, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I've blocked Bob, just Bob for 24 hours for violation of the Three Revert Rule at Deletion review/Userbox debates. The diffs are listed below for information purposes. Essjay Talk •  Contact 00:47, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Reverts Doc Glasgow
 * Reverts again
 * Reverts pgk
 * Reverts NicholasTurnbull


 * I have not edit warred (unlike our friend). I delisted bad faith DRV nominations, archived the debates, and clearly marked up what I was doing. I have answered Bob's points patiently on the talk page of DRV and on my own talk page. As to whether he could be called a troll, I could not possible comment. --Doc ask?  01:00, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Huh?
What is going on here? Where are these comments coming from? Essjay hasn't edited or made any logged actions since the Essjay controversy six years ago, and this whole thread was posted by Count Iblis just now. Nyttend (talk) 01:04, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Might be something to do with daylight savings time. Have you checked the time on your sig? 28bytes (talk) 01:05, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yup, Nyttend, check the date... Tide  rolls  01:07, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ahh, okay :-) I thought Count Iblis had copied it from somewhere that people were faking signatures (or faked the signatures himself), but the links were odd, and the usernames were all consistent...I guess I'd better go apologise.  Nyttend (talk) 01:13, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The whole April 1 nonsense can be tolerated to a degree, but ANI isn't a good place for it, and I will be the first to admit I lose my sense of humor when trying to deal with some real issues and this place gets flooded with silliness. I love fun as much as anyone, but there is a right time and place, and a right way but that is lost on most people. Most years, several people just get their feelings hurt.  ANI really is the wrong place for April Fools gags.  I know I'm outnumbered, so I think I will just log off for a day. Dennis Brown - 2¢  © Join WER 02:06, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * --Bbb23 (talk) 02:10, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll agree that the serious places, ANI/AN should remain gagless. Ryan Vesey 02:21, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Good luck with that, it's been years since reading AN/I hasn't made me want to gag. 28bytes (talk) 02:46, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Impersonating Jimbo?
Not too sure about this one, but someone should probably look into it. Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 03:10, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This is one of the problems with April Fool's Day though. People could create stupid accounts and do shit with them that appears to be funny, but sometimes it can get out of control. If this is just a joke account, let's just keep it to joke AfDs, MfDs, RfAs, etc.  Zappa  O  Mati   03:15, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * They've already been blocked.-- Auric    talk  03:23, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

User:Anonymouswriter1
A dispute arose with User:Anonymouswriter1 ("AW") as to posting information about lawsuits against John F. Kennedy University. From the get-go the edits were SHOUTING, in improper format, poorly sourced, and based on OR. Rationale for removal of the material was provided in edit summaries and on the talk page. A 3OR was sought by AW, but the reviewer did not support AW's view. I responded to the review and added more information about how the particular edits were improper. Along the way AW has repeatedly removed the POV section banner on the article page even while the discussion was going on. Moreover, AW has blanked his/her userpage which had several warnings and messages imploring a different approach to WP. Finally, his/her last posting to talk:John F. Kennedy University clearly indicates that AW has no interest in consensus or cooperation. – S. Rich (talk) 03:51, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have reverted. If anyone else wishes to look at these edits and the talk page and apply a block per WP:NOTHERE, I wouldn't object. Drmies (talk) 04:38, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

This dispute arises because User:Srich32977 initially, removed the content that I posted w/o telling me why, I reposted it & made several changes at his request (eg removed caps & other info) then he placed a banner. I am new to posting/editing on Wiki & did not understand much of what he was saying, it was convoluted and flushed with acronyms I had never seen. This issues has taken a ugly turn because as you can see above he continues to report that I have posted original content or personal thoughts, content, work (I'm not sure), however, what I have posted is a in fact very factual with more than adequately sourced citations (eg U.S. Govt. Legal database). No claims have been made regarding the standing of the cases however, this information is a important part of the universities history. User:Srich32977's initial removal of my posting, followed by repeated attempts to bully me have not been appreciated, He has reposted discussions that occurred on his wall to the JFKU page w/o regard to my request that he not do so. I experienced the discussion on his wall as private, his posting it on the JFKU wall gave credence to his argument claiming that because I used the term "alarming rate" on his wall it somehow proved I was posting my personal opinion on the JFKU wall when it was him who in fact posted it. I believe that that is why the 3OR responded the way they did because they made specific reference to that statement and took on a derogatory tone thereafter. I discounted the response because of this.

My only purpose of posting the information I posted was to provide readers with important factual and historical information about the university. I see the posting as nothing different that calling a cat a cat, some people don't like cats, so do but it's STILL a cat & people have a right to know it. Thanks Anonymouswriter1 (talk) 04:40, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a place for you to make people know what you think they should know. You have again reverted, and I think your career here will be cut short imminently since you are not here to help the project. Drmies (talk) 04:46, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * "Calling a cat a cat..." Well, it depends on the size of the cat. It is not Wikipedia's purpose to document every freakin' lawsuit that comes along. Now, if you can find valid sources indicating this is a widely known issue (like, for example, Time magazine commenting on it), then you might have something. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:49, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Tide rolls has just blocked them for edit warring. A 31-hour block is like extending rope, I guess, since this is a one-trick pony. Thanks Tide; you beat me to it. Drmies (talk) 05:06, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And now indeffed with TPA removed. If I've overstepped any admin may adjust my actions as they see fit.  Tide  rolls  05:36, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * By OP – No, I don't think overstepping has occurred. EW clearly indicated that s/he was set to do battle either as the user or via other methods. (At least this avenue is closed -- all because some lawsuits have been filed against an institution that s/he does not like.) I support the indef block and suggest that we close the discussion. – S. Rich (talk) 05:45, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Can XfD's be speedied?
See [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Streisand_effect_%284th_nomination%29]  [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&page=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mitt_Romney]. I have attempted to discuss this with the deleting admin, but they were having none of it and told me to go to ArbCom. I don't think we've reached that point yet, but I do feel the need to escalate this somewhere and WP:DRV didn't seem like the proper forum. Honestly, I don't quite know what the proper forum is, so here we are. Hopefully we won't generate too much drama. -- N Y  Kevin   04:30, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I concur with those deletions. April Fools jokes in article space are ridiculous.  RNealK (talk) 04:37, 1 April 2013 (UTC)|
 * AfD discussions are not normally deleted. However, April Fools joke AfD's are not real AfD's, even if you talk about them like they're real AfD's.  So, the title of this section should not be "Can XfD's be speedied?", but rather it should be changed to "Can fake, disruptive, unfunny joke pages that look like XfD's be speedied?"  And then, once the section is renamed, the answer to the question becomes obvious, and the need for this section is negated.  ‑Scottywong | talk _  04:41, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Precedence and WP:COMMONSENSE say no. Ryan Vesey 04:43, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

North Borneo dispute/Disputed status of North Borneo?
Hi,

Can someone take a look at North Borneo dispute and its recently created WP:FORK Disputed status of North Borneo?

Involved is user:Omdo and possibly others. Barney the barney barney (talk) 13:05, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Valid topic; the second article's been redirected to the first. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:07, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Mishapocalypse
There appears to be some kind of Internet forum organised nonsense/vandalism coming into this non-article. Can it be protected against recreation? Barney the barney barney (talk) 14:16, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅ - title salted by Writ Keeper. JohnCD (talk) 14:28, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * WP:RFPP works for next time. — G FOLEY   F OUR!  — 14:30, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Template:Country data Côte d'Ivoire
The Template:Country data Côte d'Ivoire has been broken for hours, thousands of articles are affected. Can an admin please fix it?--eh bien mon prince (talk) 00:41, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * See also Template_talk:Country_data_C%C3%B4te_d%27Ivoire.-- Auric    talk  00:47, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I took a shot at it and wasn't successful. I don't think I made it worse but I'm gonna bow out and let someone more experienced go to work.  Tide  rolls  00:50, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It looks just fine to me? - The Bushranger One ping only 06:12, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think I hit an old cache with my first check. The ones I've checked since seem to work.   Tide  rolls  14:50, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

COI review request
Hello. I have for some time now been keeping an eye on the article JS Group which is troubled by both recurring copyright issues and ongoing COI. Self-proclaimed social media marketer Xakiahmed has been repeatedly cautioned about neutrality and COI editing (he seems to work only on the suite of articles related to this company - I assume he is in their employ), but does not seem to be able to contribute neutrally. Warnings: Jan 2012, March 2012, September 2012. It doesn't seem to be working, as he placed this content today:.
 * COIN, Jan 2012
 * COIN, Jan 2012
 * COIN, Jan 2012

He seems to be completely unrestrained in the promotion he places in other articles related to this venture. See two additions from January 2013, noting that he should be very well aware by this time what is and is not allowed:,.

My only involvement with this editor has been in babysitting the JS Group article for these issues and cleaning them up where I can (and, indeed, the section placed yesterday to which he is responding seems to be a violation of our copyright policy, copied almost verbatim from its source. :P I'll look at that after I post this.) But because I have been doing this for some time would appreciate the review of others.

At this stage, I think it might be reasonable to ban him from editing directly any articles related to this organization, requiring him instead to use the talk page to discuss concerns. This is recommended practice for COI editors anyway.

The only other alternative I can see to prevent this biased editing is to indefinitely block the accounts and semi-protect the articles related to the organization. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:01, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. I'd usually like to hear Xakiahmed's response before taking action, but looking at the COIN request he never responded.  A look at his contribs shows 0 user talk space edits and 0 Wikipedia or Wikipedia talk space edits.  So I won't hold my breath for a response.  Since this user's only edits are to JS Group related pages, a topic ban equates to an indefinite block.  So I suggest that we do an indefinite block until the user agrees to abide by WP:NPOV.  Comments like this just do not stir confidence.--v/r - TP 12:50, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yep, blatantly POV stuff with a clear conflict of interest. And as a topic ban would effectively be the same as an indef block, I have blocked. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:11, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I should add that I'm always open to my actions being contested, so if there's a consensus to approach this differently then I'll support that. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:13, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I think it's a good approach. :) If he requests unblocking, perhaps he can be persuaded then to limit himself to the talk page. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:48, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've also reverted both Xakiahmed's recent edits and the IP edits they were a response too - the whole thing looked like over-hyped sensationalism. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:46, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Female bodybuilder enthusiasts
seems to have taken a great interest in equine penises as instruments of death, most notably by their creation of an article entitled Death by horse cock, which is a redirect to another page they recently created. To be honest, I'm not sure what admin action I'm requesting, but I'm sure that the pedia could benefit from some admins from reviewing some of their contributions. little green rosetta $central scrutinizer (talk)$ 12:17, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I do: request deletion of articles created today (April 1) and 24 hr block if they continue. NE Ent 12:36, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Too bad it couldn't be redirected to Enumclaw horse sex case.-- Auric    talk  13:18, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And why would that be a good thing? That would only encourage the creation of more juvinille article titles for the sole puprose of redirection.   little green rosetta $central scrutinizer (talk)$ 13:25, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * That user is not a net gain to the project. Their articles (I've dealt with a bunch of them in the past) are on my list for improvement/merging/slashing, if I ever get to that list. Drmies (talk) 15:39, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Template:Country data Côte d'Ivoire
The Template:Country data Côte d'Ivoire has been broken for hours, thousands of articles are affected. Can an admin please fix it?--eh bien mon prince (talk) 00:41, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * See also Template_talk:Country_data_C%C3%B4te_d%27Ivoire.-- Auric    talk  00:47, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I took a shot at it and wasn't successful. I don't think I made it worse but I'm gonna bow out and let someone more experienced go to work.  Tide  rolls  00:50, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It looks just fine to me? - The Bushranger One ping only 06:12, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think I hit an old cache with my first check. The ones I've checked since seem to work.   Tide  rolls  14:50, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

COI review request
Hello. I have for some time now been keeping an eye on the article JS Group which is troubled by both recurring copyright issues and ongoing COI. Self-proclaimed social media marketer Xakiahmed has been repeatedly cautioned about neutrality and COI editing (he seems to work only on the suite of articles related to this company - I assume he is in their employ), but does not seem to be able to contribute neutrally. Warnings: Jan 2012, March 2012, September 2012. It doesn't seem to be working, as he placed this content today:.
 * COIN, Jan 2012
 * COIN, Jan 2012
 * COIN, Jan 2012

He seems to be completely unrestrained in the promotion he places in other articles related to this venture. See two additions from January 2013, noting that he should be very well aware by this time what is and is not allowed:,.

My only involvement with this editor has been in babysitting the JS Group article for these issues and cleaning them up where I can (and, indeed, the section placed yesterday to which he is responding seems to be a violation of our copyright policy, copied almost verbatim from its source. :P I'll look at that after I post this.) But because I have been doing this for some time would appreciate the review of others.

At this stage, I think it might be reasonable to ban him from editing directly any articles related to this organization, requiring him instead to use the talk page to discuss concerns. This is recommended practice for COI editors anyway.

The only other alternative I can see to prevent this biased editing is to indefinitely block the accounts and semi-protect the articles related to the organization. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:01, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. I'd usually like to hear Xakiahmed's response before taking action, but looking at the COIN request he never responded.  A look at his contribs shows 0 user talk space edits and 0 Wikipedia or Wikipedia talk space edits.  So I won't hold my breath for a response.  Since this user's only edits are to JS Group related pages, a topic ban equates to an indefinite block.  So I suggest that we do an indefinite block until the user agrees to abide by WP:NPOV.  Comments like this just do not stir confidence.--v/r - TP 12:50, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yep, blatantly POV stuff with a clear conflict of interest. And as a topic ban would effectively be the same as an indef block, I have blocked. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:11, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I should add that I'm always open to my actions being contested, so if there's a consensus to approach this differently then I'll support that. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:13, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I think it's a good approach. :) If he requests unblocking, perhaps he can be persuaded then to limit himself to the talk page. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:48, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've also reverted both Xakiahmed's recent edits and the IP edits they were a response too - the whole thing looked like over-hyped sensationalism. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:46, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Female bodybuilder enthusiasts
seems to have taken a great interest in equine penises as instruments of death, most notably by their creation of an article entitled Death by horse cock, which is a redirect to another page they recently created. To be honest, I'm not sure what admin action I'm requesting, but I'm sure that the pedia could benefit from some admins from reviewing some of their contributions. little green rosetta $central scrutinizer (talk)$ 12:17, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I do: request deletion of articles created today (April 1) and 24 hr block if they continue. NE Ent 12:36, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Too bad it couldn't be redirected to Enumclaw horse sex case.-- Auric    talk  13:18, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And why would that be a good thing? That would only encourage the creation of more juvinille article titles for the sole puprose of redirection.   little green rosetta $central scrutinizer (talk)$ 13:25, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * That user is not a net gain to the project. Their articles (I've dealt with a bunch of them in the past) are on my list for improvement/merging/slashing, if I ever get to that list. Drmies (talk) 15:39, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Continued editing of BLP articles without reliable sources by User:TheShadowCrow
Despite being blocked for such behavior in the past and warned multiple times, User:TheShadowCrow has continued to insert edits into BLP articles without reliable sources. He has inserted that Gegard Mousasi is an Iranian citizen without any reliable sources stating so, going as so far as to rudely challenging me on my talk page when I reverted his edit. This user has since re-inserted the edit, again without a reliable source. This is nothing new and has been part of a troubling pattern. This user was blocked before for multiple violations of WP:BLP after multiple warnings so it's not like this is new. In fact, this user has just finished serving a 3 month ban for an unrelated violation and already has multiple warnings for violations of WP:BLP on his talk page unrelated to the Gegard Mousasi edit. In the past, administrators had floated the idea of a topic ban from WP:BLP articles but refrained with the assumption that he would review the policy and learn from his mistakes. Based on the continuation of this, I don't think this has occurred. Although, TheShadowCrow has shown some productivity in his edits, I believe the damage far outweighs the good at this point, and if you can't learn to abide by Wikipedia's policies after 6 blocks in a 1 year period, it's time some type of permanent sanction is imposed. A topic ban may now be appropriate. BearMan998 (talk) 00:14, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I showed a link where the person in question calls an Iranian "my country man" so the debate was over and solved. Bear man has a serious problem of always pointing out my block log multiple times whenever we are on the same page. Most of the time he is practicly insulting and taunting me. He seems to think that he is in a position of power and that he is some how superior to me. In fact, he forgot all about the BLP in question and just started typing paragraphs about my block log. I think he is the one who needs discipline now. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 00:26, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * They were blocked for three months for socking, one month for ARBAA2 infractions, one month for socking, two weeks for ARBAA2 infractions, 72 hours for BLP violations, 24 hours for personal attacks. They've been unblocked for a couple of weeks now and what I see is personal attacks, a battleground mentality, and BLP violations. I don't see much of a reason to not block for really, really long, but I'd like to hear what, for instance, Giant Snowman thinks--they've had a set of run-ins with them. [Also: edit conflict. ShadowCrow, I think you should try and keep quiet, since you're arguing for the opposition. Your BLP evidence is lousy and unacceptable.] Drmies (talk) 00:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see the math behind me being banned for being banned in the past. I was not trying to start a conflict. Bear man is being very hostile to me and I think this is being very overlooked. And my edits with GiantSnowman have actually been peaceful and constructive. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 00:52, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I see three twitter links, not reliable sources, just saying. Not going to comment on blocks or anything, but just fyi, sourcing the person for claims is almost always not appropriate. I can go start the twitter account "carieunderwood" with name "Carrie Underwood" and claim to be her saying whatever I want. But that doesn't make it reliable. BearMan looks right to have removed it as unsourced. Also, now that Drmies has said everything I was thinking, pending Giant Snowman changing my mind, Support an indef block until this user tells us honestly they will refrain from editing BLP articles, and a 3 (at least) month topic ban from BLPs to start if and/or when the block is lifted. gwickwire  talk editing 00:32, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * User now seems to be a bit remorseful, there wasn't any major WP:DDMP type problems, so.. WP:ROPE applies here imo, with the knowledge that next time, it will result in a significant ban/block. gwickwire  talk editing 01:46, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * This is definitly the real twitter account of Gegard Mousasi. He uploads amateur photos of himself and has talked to the UFC President and had contact with many other MMA noteworthies on twitter with that account. I have seen twitter be used as a source before and don't see why it shouldn't be now. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 00:52, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * What is the specific source being challenged? If sanctions is what ye seek, ANI is thataway.   little green rosetta $central scrutinizer (talk)$ 00:44, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 'ahem' This is ANI? The source being challenged is twitter by the way. gwickwire  talk editing 00:48, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * My bad, I could have sworn I saw this at RSN, Twitter is crap, unless the account has been verified.   little green rosetta $central scrutinizer (talk)$ 02:04, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi, as stated above, I have had recent run-ins with this editor, who I feel has numerous problems. They fail to understand - or if they understand them, accept - WP:BLP, WP:RS and WP:V - and there is a recent (still live) thread at BLPN which might be of interest. Other than their failure to understand BLP, RS and V, they also exhibit other concerning traits, such as (admitted!) WikiHounding - check who the previous editor was on each of these diffs (1, 2, 3, 4) - as well as disruptive and POINTy editing (AKA removal of masses of content with no rationale provided, while trying to prove some pro-English bias that simply does not exist) at 1, 2, 3, 4. They also seem to display OWNership issues, especially on anything related to Armenia. So in summary, TheShadowCrow has a slight attitude problem, and also displays a troublesome lack of competency in, or respect for, key Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Given this recent behaviour, as well as the historical issues, I would propose a topic ban related to Armenian topics and/or BLPs (both broadly construed) - recent discussion with this editor leads me to think there is some small glimmer of hope, and I would not want to indef them when there is potential to turn this around. I am just about to go to be (1am UK time) but saw this and thought I'd leave a quick message, and I'll pick up the thread again tomorrow morning. GiantSnowman 01:06, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * No one is paying attention to Bearman's hostility or that our edit conflict (a natural, unavoidable part of life on Wikipedia) was solved when I provided a source for what Bear wanted. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 01:11, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You'd do well to heed the advice that you stop replying here. You just proved you have a lack of competency in understanding our reliable sources policy. A twitter post (even 3) is not a reliable source for any statement, much less one like nationality. Your edit conflict (term not used right btw) was not ever resolved, because you never provided a reliable source. To GS, based on this post, would you support an indef (indefinite =/= infinite) until this user tells us they will re-read and adhere to all policies, and then a 3 month topic ban from BLPs and Armenia related articles broadly construed? gwickwire  talk editing 01:16, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * If I don't reply I'm going to be blocked! The reliable source page says, "Never use self-published books, zines, websites, webforums, blogs and tweets as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the biographical material." --TheShadowCrow (talk) 01:21, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * It also says "there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;", which there always is with Twitter. How can you prove that he made those statements? You can't. It also says "the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim;", exceptional claim is basically a big claim. You're claiming this user is of a certain nationality, based on something that looks like they *may* have said it themselves, even then it's almost a bit synthesisey. More quotes, since you seem to need them: "Self-published information should never be used as a source about a living person, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP#Reliable sources." " This policy extends that principle, adding that contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without discussion. This applies whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable". Basically, twitter is never a reliable source, because you can't verify its authenticity. gwickwire  talk editing 01:26, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * How was I supposed to think all that through? The rules say there can be an exception to twitter, and you say there is no exception to twitter. I honestly thought I was adhering to the rules of Wikipedia. I didn't want to cause any trouble and I'm really sorry that I did. I'm just trying my hardest to contribute like everyone else. Since my sources are faulty, I'm putting Bear's version back and won't be changing it without a proper source. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 01:39, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * It should be added that you made the edit without any sources and didn't come back with the Twitter reference (which doesn't really prove that he is indeed a citizen) until after the fact. And this is not the first time either. BearMan998 (talk) 01:56, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I would also like to add that while I appreciate the apology, we have seen this before here and here only for you to revert back to your old ways shortly there after. In fact, after your second apology, you immediately took pot shots at other editors and an admin as seen here. As GiantSnowman mentioned, I too am support of a topic ban of Armenian related topics but would add BLPs as well as nearly all the issues are limited to these two categories. BearMan998 (talk) 21:45, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Is the twitter account in question "verified" by twitter or a RS? If not, this is a non starter and the account can't be use for pretty much any purpose here.   little green rosetta $central scrutinizer (talk)$ 02:11, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * That's when they have the light blue star, right? No, it doesn't have that. However, a source has recognized this as his official account (HMTTT is a thing where they post tweets of fighters on their website to show whats new in the twitter world. Mousasi's account is in the edition I linked). Although I think the source is credible because it's one of the most famous and popular MMA news websites, I'm not going to take the risk and say it is.--TheShadowCrow (talk) 02:18, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry--what are we trying to find out? Whether some tweet has a fucking blue star? This is an encyclopedia, where we should be writing articles that we wouldn't be embarrassed to publish in print. There isn't a damn thing on Twitter that we could accept as a reliable source, and I don't give a fuck whether someone acknowledges something as their official Twitter or not. RS is the name of the game, not what someone typed in on their cell phone. Also, will someone point this user to the MMA restrictions, with all this stuff about disruption and consequent blocks? Drmies (talk) 07:12, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, Bloody Elbow is not a reliable source. Bobby Tables (talk) 15:31, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * What I'm reading "User:TheShadowCrow has continued to insert in the Gegard Mousasi MMA article that Gegard Mousasi is an Iranian citizen under the claim that a twitter post supported this, therefore he should be topic banned from editing all Armenian-related topics and all BLPs (both broadly construed) for a period of 3 months." This discussion has stalled becauase the remedy requests do not match the provided evidence, which also lacks sufficient diffs directed towards supporting both evidence and remedy. BearMan998, if you want TheShadowCrow warned/topic banned from editing all Armenian-related topics or from all BLP articles, you should focus on what you want and provided evidence with diffs to support that request. -- Jreferee (talk) 10:20, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Not a problem. Here is the first revert without any reliable sourcing. Here is a second revert using Twitter posts as a basis. Now this wouldn't be egregious if it wasn't for the fact that this is a continuing pattern with this user who was blocked before for multiple BLP violations, so ignorance of policy shouldn't be an excuse now. GiantSnowman has had several run-ins with this user concerning BLP articles and you can see his evidence in his fist post in this thread, and the evidence that GiantSnowman should present a clear picture. It's this recent behavior fresh off a block plus historical issues which leads credence to such a move at this point. BearMan998 (talk) 17:28, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Also note that TheShadowCrow was given a clear and explicit warning for persistent violations of BLP articles on June 2012 here and here. Specifically, this was for adding content with no source or poorly sourced material and edit warring to retain such content in the article to such an extent that WP:BLPSE was considered at the time. Based on the edits I mentioned above and the edits that GiantSnowman brought up, I think these violations of adding content with no or poor sources and edit warring in an attempt to retain them have continued despite multiple warnings. This is why I think formal topic ban is needed as warnings have little effect. BearMan998 (talk) 21:33, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I would ask right now, if the user will submit to following the WP:COI guidelines, as the user apparently has an interest in inserting the information into these articles. Also, The user should understand that Twitter may not be considered a reliable source unless the information can be backed up by another RS. Finally, the user should consider that the WP:Consensus is against adding this information from this source. Sephiroth storm (talk) 20:02, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: WP:ROPE
This is dropped with a stern warning that the next BLP violation, or anything that looks remotely like one will earn them a stern and long block with little chance of an unblock. Basically WP:ROPE, we can hash out the length/etc. in the discussion below. gwickwire talk editing 22:30, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as proposer gwickwire  talk editing 22:30, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - we need a formal topic ban, as below. GiantSnowman 22:35, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: topic ban
I propose that is topic banned from editing all Armenian-related topics and all BLPs (both broadly construed) for a period of, say, 3 months.
 * Support as proposer. GiantSnowman 22:35, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Support as this has gone on long enough and this user has been given enough chances already. BearMan998 (talk) 23:00, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I weakly support such a topic ban, though I wonder if the present thread hasn't already put the editor on notice. Their recent edits (which are in a different field) seem unproblematic. Drmies (talk) 04:16, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Need assistance dealing with Administrator failing to WP:AGF and name calling.
Administrator User:Anomie is failing to WP:AGF and though I was making an attempt to work with this administrator to correct the problem with Template:Userboxbreak, the administrator almost immediately took to threats of blocking and name calling. This may stem from issues I've had with this administrator in the past in regards to WP:SIG which was forced imposed upon me, but few others cared to make changes to their signatures to remove the inconveniences and annoyances they were imposing upon others. I've become an active member of WP:TH and am trying to improve this encyclopedia and help as many others with what knowledge I have, and do not appreciate administrators that can't drop the WP:Stick and be WP:CIVIL I'm requesting admin mediation on these matters from an admin that was not previously involved in the WP:SIG discussion as I feel many of them "may" be biased and have lost their ability to offer a WP:NPOV. Thank you. — User:Technical 13  ( C • M • Click to learn how to view this signature as intended ) 16:58, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Usbkbottom&diff=prev&oldid=548168533 This] and [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Anomie&diff=prev&oldid=548168822 this] sure look like trolling to me (If it quacks like a duck...). And it's hard to believe [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Anomie&diff=548166615&oldid=548166102 this] was due to ignorance of the redirect. As for Template:Userboxbreak, the only problem with it was that you repeatedly made edits to break it.
 * I don't recall having any discussion with you regarding WP:SIG (so if I did, it certainly didn't stick in my mind), although I do find your sig ridiculous. Anomie⚔ 17:12, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As an administrator, you instructed me "feel free to unredirect usbkbottom so you can stop pretending to be confused by it." (which I decided to ignore your accusation that I'm pretending anything and not being sincere in my question to an administrator). I removed the #REDIRECT, and the template broke. I decided to inform you of this, and I will admit, I was frustrated with your rude, accusational, ... (reminds himself WP:CIVIL) attitude. The discussion we had about WP:SIG was in relation to... nah... I'm not going to bite since I feel you are baiting me with that comment. I'm sure you remember, and if not, it would be easy to find in the history. — User:Technical 13  ( C • M • Click to learn how to view this signature as intended ) 17:24, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Technical 13: Anomie appears to have accused you of trolling... and judging from edits like [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Usbkbottom&diff=prev&oldid=548168533 this], he appears to be right. When he tells you you can un-redirect something, he quite obviously means for you to copy the target code in and modify it as needed, not just blank the template. If that's not obvious, you really shouldn't be editing highly used templates. 28bytes (talk) 17:15, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I made that edit as I was directed by an administrator. If he meant for me to do something else, he should have told me to do what he wanted. — User:Technical 13  ( C • M • Click to learn how to view this signature as intended ) 17:30, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, this comment, combined with your addition of ec to [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=548177040&oldid=548177011 my comment] rather than yours has left no doubt in my mind that you're just trolling. Stop it now, or I'm going to block you from editing. 28bytes (talk) 17:34, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * And if you're asking for uninvolved admin input regarding your signature, I have to agree with Anomie that it is ridiculous. Asking people to install Javascript code to properly view your signature is neither reasonable nor a good use of anyone's time, to put it mildly. 28bytes (talk) 17:20, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Technical_13: It appears to me you are being intentionally tendentious. You took Anomie's comment entirely at face value without the entirely obvious undertone: "Remove the redirect and use it as you intended it." This edit to remove the redirect was WP:POINTY. It was your "Haha, gotcha" moment and then you immediately ran here to ANI to complain about Anomie. Anomie: Your patience in this case wore thin quickly. What's up?--v/r - TP 17:18, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I will admit, I've never been one to pick up on subtle hints or undertones. I take everything at face value.  As far as my current signature goes, it is that way at the recommendation of other system administrators.  I will be happy to shorten it once other consensuses have been reached.  My signature does not ask them to install js code, it informs them that my signature is not what it is suppose to be because consensus says I'm not allowed to have certain characters, and if they chose to, they can make it look like I wanted it to look.  — User:Technical 13   ( C • M • Click to learn how to view this signature as intended ) 17:28, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I totally don't get the point of this signature. Why don't you intend something simple? Why does your invitation have to be so much longer than the actual signature? Cuteness doesn't really work here. Drmies (talk) 17:36, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's clear you have the technical expertise to understand how Mediawiki templates work. You clearly know Javascript well based off the script in your userspace.  So excuse the rest of us if we ignore your plea of innocence that you did not understand how removing the redirect alone would break the template.  Don't act like we're stupid.  You fully intended it to break so you could play "gotcha" to Anomie and his response was appropriate.  A response you anticipated so you could drag him here.  No one is fooled.  Own up or get off.--v/r - TP 17:33, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * TParis: [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Userboxbreak&diff=548144962&oldid=547144933 This revert] started the conversation out on the wrong foot. Anyone who is going to be editing templates should know that if someone reverts your edit saying that it broke things, re-reverting with a comment that boils down to "nuh-uh" is entirely the wrong thing to do. So I warned Technical 13 that further reverts on that template would lead to a block for disruption. He then explained what breakage he was seeing, I explained where his error was, and then instead of going with it he started a strange attempt to somehow prove himself not wrong. I have little patience for that, and even less when it descends to trolling. Anomie⚔ 17:40, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * silly signature aside, Anomie wrote "It seems your point is that you either have poor reading comprehension or you're trolling.". to me it is a very obvious case of the former - i do not think there's justification to call it trolling.
 * User:Technical_13: i think you should avoid editing widely used templates - it's pretty obvious you do not posses, at this time, the required skills to do so. peace - קיפודנחש (aka kipod) (talk) 17:43, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * aside: Oh god, let's not refight the sig thing again; my new sig is boring enough as it is. Technical13: we've gotten along pretty well after the sig thing, it seems to me. So let me give it to you straight: you have a tendency to be very standoffish when questioned or "challenged".  You need to lighten up on this kind of behavior.  I don't think you're a troll per se, but I think you were miffed at your fix being reverted (and to be brutally honest, I trust Anomie enough to take him at his word that your fix broke the template), and you succumbed to the temptation of messing around with things a bit. Surely you know enough HTML/Mediawiki to understand that the userboxbottom and usrbxbottom or whatever templates can be the same while their respective top templates can be different, because all the bottom ones do is close a table.  Tables are all closed the same way, but they start different ways, depending on how you want the table to look and work, so the tops reflect the differences and the bottoms don't. It's exactly the same way that two HTML div tags can have wildly different attributes and css in the opening tags, leading to wildly different functionality, and yet they both are closed by the same.
 * TL;DR: per kipod. Writ Keeper (t + c) 17:45, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't read kipod or Writ's responses before I wrote below. There was obviously a difference of opinion as to which edit was breaking the template. This was how I saw the conversation...  As soon as I made the revert I thought to correct the problem, I posted a not on Anomie's talk page offering links to how the template was working/broken depending on whose version of the template was being used.  Anomie's response was: "userboxbreak is not designed to work with usbktop/usbk/usbkbottom. It is designed to work with userboxtop and userboxbottom, and your change is breaking that. Create usbkbreak if you want something to work with that family, and stop being so careless as to not test the existing uses of templates." Of which I felt the first sentence was a fair argument to discuss.  The second sentence, was simply Anomie calling me names and being rude and offensive.  My response to that was: "Following usbkbottom specifically says to use userboxbreak." Which I thought was a fair response to the first sentence of the previous response.  Anomie comes back with: "It also says to use userboxtop. What's your point?" Which although the "What's your point?" felt short, rude, and not what I expected - what I expected was him to follow the link, see that I was correct and spend the two minutes that it took me later to fix the problem, at which point the discussion would have been over - it was a fair question.  I responded: "My point is if usbkbottom specifically says to use userboxbreak, why wouldn't it be designed for it?" Which I thought was a fair question considering the previous thing I had expected had not happened, I thought I was about to learn something new that (s)he had insight I was unaware of.  Instead, I was berated by: "It seems your point is that you either have poor reading comprehension or you're trolling. Enough of this. If you break userboxbreak again, you'll be blocked. But feel free to unredirect usbkbottom so you can stop pretending to be confused by it." Which to me was a flat out attack and assault.  It started to go more quickly downhill from there, at which point I spent some time trying to research the best way to resolve some of the tension and animosity by coming here.  The first few responses were poor and mob-like protecting a fellow admin.  I would like to thank you kipod and Writ for helping me clear my mind and try to explain this as I saw it better in hopes that there can be some better understanding and resolution.  — User:Technical 13   ( C • M • Click to learn how to view this signature as intended ) 18:11, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Anomie is an administrator, I am not. I assumed that an administrator telling be to do something would be safe and not break stuff. I though (s)he knew something I didn't. I only barely know anything about JavaScript, and most of that which is in my userspace are bits and pieces I have pasted together from questions I have asked other users/administrators on wikipedia and questions I have asked and referenced through on StackOverflow. I'm retired from volunteering at my local fire department where all of our training is if someone more experienced, and/or higher ranking than you tells you to do something, you do it and you do it now. You can ask questions about it later. This is exactly what I did. I removed the redirect. Then, I immediately posted to Anomie's page saying that it was broken. Despite doing what I was trained to do, he called me a stupid, unintelligible, moronic, `ass-hat`, troll. Anomie made no attempt to WP:AGF, and because of that was unjustly short with me. As far as your question goes Drmies, my signature was simple until people complained and made me change it to this. So, since I'm again being attacked for attempting to do the right thing and improve this wiki, I'm being the better man here and dropping the WP:stick. I may even need to take a WP:wikibreak because I'm very upset that despite how much I'm trying to be WP:CIVIL I still feel like being attacked over stupidity and perhaps 'm being defensive, being bullied tends to make people act that way. — User:Technical 13  ( C • M • Click to learn how to view this signature as intended ) 17:52, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with both 28bytes and TParis. Technical 13, you've been editing for two years and you obviously have some understanding of javascript and DOM manipulation, so it's very unlikely you can't understand that an like this would cause problems. That couples with the edit summary was undoubtedly pointy. If you really don't understand the effect such edits could have, then I'm sorry but you have a serious lack of common sense and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near those pages. Chamal T •C 17:54, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Technical13, I don't see any place where Anomie called you any of: "stupid, unintelligible, moronic, `ass-hat`". Where did this happen? If it didn't, you really shouldn't be using hyperbole like that on this page; it makes things much worse for everyone involved.  Anyway, try to see this from Anomie's perspective.  You come in and make a well-intentioned change to a template that, despite your effort, breaks it.  Anomie reverts it, no big deal.  But then you insist on your change by reinserting your changes, re-breaking the template in the process. Anomie explains to you how your change broke things and why your testing didn't uncover the change (a bit gruffly, but still), and yet you still insist that you were right, using arguments that, on their face, make no sense.  Then you interpret "unredirect" as blank (which is not at all the standard interpretation), along with a snarky edit summary. You might not have intended the snark, but it is quite easily seen that way.  So, from that perspective, you really do look like a troll. It's fine if you don't know that much JS or template code; we were all like that at one point.  But that means you need to move slowly and cautiously, taking careful note of others' input, while you're still learning the ropes.  In this situation, you instead acted like the proverbial bull in a china shop, and that never ends well. Writ Keeper (t + c) 18:04, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

This has gone on long enough. Following the, creating useless templates (and then recreating them after deletion), and creating redundant templates based on a poor understanding of template coding, I propose a topic ban for Technical 13 in the area of creating or modifying templates, unless he agrees to be mentored by a more experienced user. — Hex    (❝  ?!  ❞)   18:32, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Really? I try to as clearly as possible explain what happened in my eyes, and feel a sense of hope that Anomie and I could possibly shake hands and find an understanding and BAM!! another administrator attack?  You point out all of my negatives and none of the positives: Template:Tracked per Template_talk:Tracked, Template:Usbk, Template:CODATA2010/sandbox2 per VPT, Template:Tbullet/sandbox in response to Templates_for_discussion/Log/2013_March_27... — User:Technical 13   ( C • M • View signature as intended) 18:52, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * technical, your explanation leads to only one logic conclusion: you should be banned from touching templates, as it seem you do not understand the expected behavior. you touched a high used template. legit. you made a mistake. also legit. someone with greater knowledge and understanding than yourself fixed your mistake by reverting your edit. super legit. you went and re-instated your bad edit, without clearing with person, and without understanding what the problem was - not at all legit.
 * ok - one illegit action, this happens. your behavior after this point leads me to believe Anonie was right and i was wrong - you behave less and less like someone with mere reading comprehension (though this also seems highly likely), and more and more like a true trol. please stop. קיפודנחש (aka kipod) (talk) 19:04, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Alright enough Technical 13 has been scolded enough and now understands what broke the template. Anomie hasn't done anything beyond being a little short which is excusable. Technical is advised not to mess around with highly used templates until he understands the system better and he's be highly wise to look at Anomie as a mentor in the area of templates and take Anomie's comments seriously if he has an interest there. Someone close this please.--v/r - TP 19:06, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, too lost, just ec'd with post below... NE Ent
 * Anomie, I'm willing to forgive your indiscretions and unfounded in my eyes, rude and abusive comments directed toward me if you agree to attempt to better WP:AGF and work together in a WP:CIVIL matter. If this an unfair request? — User:Technical 13   ( C • M • View signature as intended) 19:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The editor here who needs to change their behavior here is Technical, not Anomie. I highly suggest the change be rapid. NE Ent 19:18, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it is a little bit. Just drop it.  Go forth, and make unsupervised edits to templates no more. If you see an edit to a template that you want to make, just ask someone first, before making the change. That's pretty much all the proposed topic ban would mean anyway. Getting a second opinion before editing a widely-used piece of code is always a good idea, even for experts; it's an excellent idea here. Writ Keeper (t + c) 19:23, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay then... I understand. It is unfair and unacceptable to ask an administrator to keep WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL in mind discussing disagreements on en.wikipedia when dealing with others (especially those that have been actively editing for less than four months). I kind of feel like "New editors need not come to En.Wikipedia, we don't want you." -- I'm done discussing it unless Anomie wants to agree to WP:AGF and be WP:CIVIL. Consider the WP:Stick dropped, no matter how WP:POINTy or WP:NOTPOINTy it may have seemed. I'm glad some of you like to WP:BITE. — User:Technical 13   ( C • M • View signature as intended) 19:38, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

User:Lampenstein
User:Lampenstein has recently joined Wikipedia. He posted on one talk page, and used language that, although not exactly a personal attack, did not seem appropriate to me: "It's downright retarded. That title would never fly on television, man." I posted on his talk page, to inform him of WP:TPG and WP:CIV, and in response to that I got this, this edit summary, and this personal attack on my talk page.

While the user is new to Wikipedia, I think this merits your attention. Thank you for reading this. Toccata quarta (talk) 18:07, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Most definitely a few issues there, including his signature ("do some meth"?) and the copyrighted photo on his userpage.  Frigid Ninja  18:21, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I wonder if we are dealing with User:OGBranniff here. Lampenstein was created after OGBranniff was blocked, and I am seeing the same immature behavior at Articles for deletion/Kingston Defence. Ihardlythinkso apparently already suspects that this is a reincarnation. Sjakkalle (Check!)  19:00, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * That's a good point. I was tempted to note that, although his account is new, his edits look very competent, but I stuck to WP:AGF. But now that I think of it, what you and Ihardlythinkso suggest seems very likely. Toccata quarta (talk) 19:29, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Add him at Sockpuppet investigations/OGBranniff, let CU run it. Drmies (talk) 19:43, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, I have filed an SPI . Sjakkalle (Check!)  20:01, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Now blocked after CU check. Toccata quarta (talk) 20:38, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

User:Gacorno ‎
has repeatedly recreated speedily deleted articles (See User talk:Gacorno). Furthermore, User Gacorno has removed templates (including AfD templates) off of a page (Gabriele Corno (author)). I warned the user (see the talk page), and then put the templates back on to Gabriele Corno (author). The user then removed them again (See ). ModelUN (talk) 21:37, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think this is just a typical new user involved in writing autobiographical articles. I've left a note about the autobiogrphies and CSD'd the remaining one. Let' see if he gets the idea. Toddst1 (talk) 22:01, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Violation of 1RR at Tea Party movement
has made 3 reverts today, 2 clearly of the same material. Earlier today at "anti-illegal-immigration and anti-compromise politics." as changed to " and opposed to illegal immigration" and a few hours later, with "anti-immigration" was changed to "and opposed to illegal immigration" (among other changes). He also gave an editor a "final warning" for vandalism today although what I saw was a content dispute. There is a huge note above the edit field when you edit and a note at the top of the talk page, both pointing to. Dougweller (talk) 16:45, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:AN3? DeCausa (talk) 16:53, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No one should be edit warring...however, was the editor previously aware of the 1RR restriction on that article? From the diffs provided, it appears that the editor was trying to make the stance that the TPM actually is opposed to illegal immigration, which is less POV since anti-illegal immigration is a poor choice of wording and inaccurate.--MONGO 17:13, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * MONGO summarized my thoughts exactly. "Anti-immigration" does not equate to "opposed to illegal immigration."  Not a WP:EW exemption, but also worth taking a more indepth look into.  Also, was he aware?  Edit notices are great (not) but a log of notifications is better.  Isn't that standard practice with community sanctions?--v/r - TP 17:25, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * See the talk page for context - this is part of a content dispute as to whether the article can suggest in some way that the TP opposes immigration. And this doesn't belong at AN3, according to the page I pointed to above it belongs here. As for whether the editor was aware, only this month he made 24 edits to the article, each one with a huge notice about the 1RR restriction. And on March 30th 1RR was mentioned in a reply to the editor which he then replied to, so yes, he must have been aware. Ah, found "I also suggest that responsible editors shouldn't be tag teaming to get around the 1RR restriction. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 12:26 am, 30 March 2013, last Saturday (3 days ago) (UTC+0)" So he is aware. Dougweller (talk) 18:03, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well that's good enough for me. However, it seems to me he thinks he is using the WP:BLP exemption to WP:EW, although he has been appropriately advised that WP:BLP doesn't apply to this specific text, perhaps a warning from someone uninvolved (I'm willing to step up) that the text is not exempt would be helpful?--v/r - TP 18:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * For the record, the editor in question changed the text from "anti-immigration" to "opposed to illegal immigration" seven times over the past week (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th). His 3rd and 4th edits were within 3 hours of each other, his 5th and 6th edits were within 23 hours of each other, and his 6th and 7th edits were within 7 hours of each other, thus the 1RR restriction was exceeded on the same material three times.  Beginning with the 3rd edit, he said he had a WP:BLP edit warring exemption, which was promptly disputed by editors on the article's Talk Page.  Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 18:19, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Without condoning the edit warring issue, seems the real POV pushing is being done by editors that have an "anti-Tea Party Movement" agenda. The correct stance would be that the TPM is opposed to illegal imigration, not anti-illegal immigration. That isn't even the total story as not all that are affiliated in this very loose coalition that makes up the TPM even take a specific stand on the issue notto mention that the anti wording is poor grammar.--MONGO 20:19, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's more subtle than that, but this is not the place to discuss the content dispute or who is right or wrong. It is the place to decide whether he's violated 1RR (which he clearly has) and whether we are going to enforce or ignore the 1RR restriction (if he thought there was a BLP problem he should have gone to BLPN, not just use it as an excuse to revert). I'm sorry I got myself involved trying to make a compromise edit as this seems to be a clear violation. Dougweller (talk) 20:31, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If he thought there was a BLP issue, then he was obligated to revert. But I personally think BLP is a bit of a stretch in this example.  He knew about the restrictions and should get a block.   little green rosetta $central scrutinizer (talk)$ 20:39, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Even WP:EW makes clear that the WP:BLP exemption is controversial. One shouldn't rely on the exemption nor feel obligated.  No one is obligated to enforce WP:BLP as the option to simply not edit exists.  One is only obligated to enforce WP:BLP when hitting the save button.--v/r - TP 21:15, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Without comment on the "correct" version of the underlying content, this appears to be a clear 1RR violation with several other recent episodes of edit-warring documented by AzureCitizen above. The material in question is not subject to a BLP exemption. Blocked for 24 hours. MastCell Talk 21:03, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Continuous edit warring at Leo Komarov
Forget April Fools Day, this article is stuck in a sad little parody of Groundhog Day. Leo Komarov has been at the centre of a three-month dispute over the question of whether the player's birth country should be considered the USSR, or simply Estonia. An attempted RFC basically trainwrecked and was closed as no-consensus, and this article has been fully protected due to edit warring several times since January. About six hours after the latest full protection expired on March 27, User:Nug reverted the article to their preferred version, leading User:GoodDay to revert that then think better of it and reverse his action himself, only to have User:Marc87 again revert, resulting in the last two days seeing Marc87 vs. Nug and User:Jaan in a little battle over the article. Others have been involved in the previous edit warring, but these three are the principals in this latest round. Marc has reverted four times in the last 48 hours, matched by Jaan and Nug tag-teaming for four reverts of their own. It becomes obvious that seeking yet another period of protection on the article would be a waste of time, so I would ask that an uninvolved admin keep an eye on this article and mete out warnings, blocks or propose topic bans to any parties they feel warrant it. Resolute 00:42, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * All four named editors notified. Resolute 00:45, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Let me point it out that others except for Marc are simply reverting to the last stable version merely to follow WP:NOCONSENSUS. Jaan Pärn (talk) 00:51, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Could you please point out where WP:NOCONSENSUS says you can violate WP:EDITWARRING?
 * I have not said that. I just said NOCONSENSUS applies. Jaan Pärn (talk) 01:01, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * By my count, you have reverted five different editors a total of 17 times since early January. You may not have stated it, but your actions and comments certainly imply that you feel justified in edit warring for this reason. Resolute 01:29, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Marc87's edits. But, I reverted myself on March 27, as I feared that Nug & Jaan might tag-team me. I reverted my own edit, so as to avoid a possible coming edit-war. GoodDay (talk) 01:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Consider the fact that the formal Dissolution of the Soviet Union wasn't until 1991 (And Estonia didn't declare independence until August 20, 1991), the proper solution would be list as USSR, with a note saying (now Estonia). - Penwhale &#124; dance in the air and follow his steps 04:58, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The slight problem with that, is the USSR has 15 successor states, not just Estonia. But anyways, that's a content issue. GoodDay (talk) 05:10, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In any case, the lengthy discussion Talk:Leo Komarov could use the insight of an uninvolved admin to reach a consensus and sort how how we present his birthplace. Canuck 89 (converse with me) 08:01, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

AfD closure, quickly
Can we get this AfD speedy closed and deleted?  Frigid Ninja  01:58, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This sounds like an April Fools afd to me.-- Auric    talk  02:01, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My calendar tells me we have to deal with this kind of stupid shit again today. -- Kinu  t/c 02:05, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll just cloak myself in the warm blanket that is denial.  Tide  rolls  02:08, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I can handle those for one day, with my sense of humor. No action should be performed until tomorrow.  TB randley  02:10, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Another bunch: User_talk:TenPoundHammer   Didn't he get warned for this last year? Andy Dingley (talk) 02:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Do you suggest that all April Fools' pranksters be blocked for what's merely harmless shenanigans? God forbid anyone should have fun. Joke XFDs on Wikipedia have been around nearly as long as Wikipedia itself. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 03:04, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 24 hours blocks for all of them would be equally harmless, and would prevent disruption. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:06, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Isn't that a little harsh? I mean, people can have at least some fun.  Zappa  O  Mati   03:08, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * TenPoundHammer was blocked for creating joke deletion requests last year. If he creates any more, I will block him this year. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 03:13, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And yes, I was blocked, but you're forgetting the part about how a.) I was blocked by a trigger-happy admin a good three hours after I had stopped pranking, and b.) was swiftly unblocked by one admin who agreed that blocking for April Fools' pranks was over the line. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 03:34, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * agreed. what harm is there in letting editors have a little fun one day out of the year. i'm not saying allow vandalism, but just don't delete stuff that is humorous. spoilsports. -- Aunva6talk - contribs HAPPY APRIL FOOLS! 04:15, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The harm exists when it starts to go from an attempt at humor to something that could be construed as an insult.  Mike V  •  Talk  04:26, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * ok, I apologize for that one. but still, you don't need to delete every single April fools XfD page, certainly not under G3. most of them are not insulting in the least, and are obviously humorous. I really don't see why they need to be deleted. -- Aunva6talk - contribs HAPPY APRIL FOOLS! 04:31, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Sometimes I think there should be a minimal age limit on people editing Wikipedia. RNealK (talk) 04:34, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the limit should be set at 115 so no one in the world with a sense of humour can edit. You need to face the facts, Aprils Fools Day is an internationally recognised holiday that has its origins dating back hundreds of years, people of all ages, culture, religion participate in it; claiming (or even implying)that pranks are only or even primarily conducted by kids is just naive. YuMaNuMa Contrib 05:35, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * i'm sorry, are you implying that I am a kid? I will be 20 in June, and I don't see the harm in having a little bit of non-persistent fun one day out of the year. -- Aunva6talk - contribs HAPPY  APRIL FOOLS! 04:42, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Then start acting like an adult. RNealK (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 04:43, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * so, you're saying that being a bit childish for one day out of the year is not allowed? -- Aunva6talk - contribs HAPPY APRIL FOOLS! 04:48, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see why we all can't be childish once a year or as often as we choose. At the same time, I don't see why it has to be here. -- Kinu  t/c 04:53, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * why not have some reasonable fun that doesn't cause any lasting damage? -- Aunva6talk - contribs HAPPY APRIL FOOLS! 05:00, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should PROD AMD Accelerated Processing Unit for its terrible writing, even with 75 edits from Aunva6. Just kidding. It's been fun enough, now go play somewhere else--this is silly and disruptive. Playing with whoopy cushions is more fun than those nominations. Drmies (talk) 05:02, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * haha, yeah, your right. it's fun the first 5 or 6 times, but it gets old quickly. also, you could try to prod it, but I probably wouldn't be the first to get to it, but I see your point. -- Aunva6talk - contribs  05:31, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps an admin posting a warning at April fools/April Fools' Day 2013 about afd and ani jokes being unwelcome wouldn't be remiss if it is considered disruptive? - Cameron11598  (Converse) 05:33, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * If you want to do funny things on April Fool's Day, write an article and get it in the April Fool's DYKs or do TFA! . Doing anything more is simply ridiculous and is disruptive to the project. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:10, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * So writing a TFA is ridiculous and disruptive? Oh my... — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:13, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Depends on the subject. But that's a fair cop. - The Bushranger One ping only 06:19, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose XfD and RfA are off limits to jokes then - are they?  hmssolent \Let's convene My patrols 11:42, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That would be annoying, yes. - a boat   that can float!  (raising awareness of dihydrogen monoxide) 18:58, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * And there's still not a proposal or concensus to have joke XfDs and RfAs banned and have them as grounds for blocking. hmssolent \Let's convene My patrols 12:10, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No, but see Requests for comment/April Fools'. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 14:00, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

User needs block
User:Torture rollie to death should be blocked. It has a "blocked" notice on its user page, but it doesn't look as though the block has actually been made. 60.234.54.146 (talk) 05:17, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's showing as Globally Locked, so it's more than a block at this point. - Penwhale &#124; dance in the air and follow his steps 05:21, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, we don't all know these things. 60.234.54.146 (talk) 05:21, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I have a question about how this works.
 * User groups shows "blocked".
 * Blocked users shows no blocks.
 * User Contributions shows no edits.
 * SUL Info shows 2 edits and says "blocked", but clicking on the blocked link shows no blocks.
 * Global user contributions shows 0 contributions found in 0 projects (856 projects scanned).

So, is the user blocked? If so, where is that logged? Did the user make 0 edits or 2? --Guy Macon (talk) 07:34, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, they are blocked. The discrepancies are likely due to block being revdel'ed and their two edits also being revdel'ed. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 07:48, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Special:BlockList shows the account as blocked - spaces in usernames are represented by plus signs, not underscores. Peter&#160;James (talk) 13:24, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

xkcd-based vandalism at
was referenced in today's XKCD (although he just gave a hint) and IP editors are starting to vandalize the page. Could we semiprotect it for a day or two? Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 08:13, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That XKCD strip has been there since yesterday (April Fool's Day) and will be replaced before too long, and there's only been one bad edit to the article so far - I don't think we need protection against such low-level activity. Also, I've redacted the name of the article and will rev delete it - announcing it here on one of our most widely-read boards is only likely to increase its exposure (admins can see the rev deleted version in case they disagree with me and think it needs protection) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:30, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, checking further, the edit in question was from February 2011, so it's not related to the XKCD strip anyway. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:38, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I did some more research and found this: http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=1193 key point: "...on a varying Wikipedia page (so far: Technology, Research, Sith, Jean Luc Picard, Aer Lingus, Human sexual activity, Auction, Sinking of the Titanic, Guards with the most complicated knives, Bizarro, Map, 24-hour analog dial, Berlin Hauptbahnhof, Centrifugal Force, McDuck, Maryland Route 147, Interplanetary Transfer Network..." So the page I saw could have been another page if I had tried a few minutes later. I think I will wait a couple of days and then check what links to all 100 NASDAQ-100 companies and repair any obvious recent vandalism. Weird that the page that happened to be referenced when I checked had a bogus NASDAQ-100 name for a satellite network with a citation to a slinky article, but as you say that bit of vandalism has been there a while. --Guy Macon (talk) 10:13, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, sounds good. In that linked Slinky story, there was actually a mention of satellite-tracking by the delivery company (though there was indeed no reference to the named NASDAQ-100 company) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:25, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The companies' websites mention the use of the system by the delivery company, but not for satellite tracking (although that is an application available for the system). The 2011 edit looks like original research, or omission of a citation, rather than vandalism. The recent self-reverted IP edit is probably related to XKCD. Peter&#160;James (talk) 13:53, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Range block requested
Perhaps one of you can look into the possibility of range-blocking socky IPs of --you'll find a couple of them in the history of Talk:Banda Singh Bahadur. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 16:13, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * After consulting a CU I've blocked 117.214.212.0/22 for a while. See if that makes any difference. Basa lisk  inspect damage⁄berate 17:31, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Indianbackpacker links
I don't know if I am doing this right or if this is the right place but on March 30 started adding links to indianbackpacker.com to articles. I removed them as some were slipped in as references where they weren't actually references and others seemed like advertisements. The next day started adding links to the same website in the same fashion. When I removed those reversed all my edits and added them back. These are the only edits Akshayindian has ever made. Should these links be removed or am I in the wrong here? Helpsome (talk) 16:52, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You have done well. is now indef-blocked as a spam-only account; I'm looking into the other. Drmies (talk) 16:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * MNDude and Jimmyhow are doing similar things, but while Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/TRICENTIS Technology & Consultingame (MNdude) and Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Backlinks Fans (Jimmyhow) are on roughly similar topics, they are sufficiently different (prose style, referencing) that I don't think they're the same editor. It is possible, of course, that Akshay is a sock of one of those--that's hard to judge given their limited edits. You could file an SPI, but I don't know if the evidence is strong enough for this not to be considered a fishing expedition (with or without backpack) involving CU. I've warned Jimmyhow about their spam links and will do the same for the MNdude. Drmies (talk) 17:02, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Home address and email published
I just saw this pop up at WP:DRN and it looks like something that would require some immediate oversight. At first glance, this doesn't look too good for Nyttend, unless I am reading the situation wrongly. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:33, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The NRIS lists the site as "Address Restricted". according to the source being used. This information should not be available on wiki. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:01, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * But the address is published by other official and reliable sources, as anyone who actually looked at the Dispute in detail would know. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:13, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Since this question is in Dispute Resolution, and Scjessey has clearly not done any background research on the situation, bringing it here seems precipitous. See this on Commons for some background.  There is no privacy concern as the owner does not live on the property, which is licensed as a hotel.  In any case, this has no business being here, and I suggest Scjessey be trouted - especially since the email was not revealed by Nyttend, as is implied. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:06, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Beyond My Ken, this is a hotel of sorts and nobody lives there full time as far as I can tell. See the official website. I don't see any great need for the address in an encyclopedia article, but this is more of a MOS issue than a privacy issue. James086 Talk  18:17, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Agree with BMK, I've also closed the DRN as unsuitable for a number of reasons, but someone should block Scjessey The opener of the DRN (sorry SC) for legal threats, as they've claimed to be speaking with police, etc. at the DRN (I didn't redact or remove that, just collapse, so feel free to go verify that). Addresses of a property that is named are public information in my opinion, i.e. the address of the Texas Capitol building is public information, the address of the Vice-President's Mansion or whatever we are calling it now is public information, etc. If this person wants it removed, he needs to go through WMF legal because we are under no obligation to remove it here. gwickwire  talk editing 18:19, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * See my comments and those of other people at Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:John and Dorothy Haynes House, May 2011.jpg, as well as the one that Beyond My Ken. Location information is relevant for a building article, and as numerous books (as well as a reliable website) provide the address, we have no obligation to remove it.  I agree with Gwickwire that a block is suitable: the owner's arguments have always been based on claims that we're revealing personal information such as his home address, even though his home address is actually more than 600 miles away.  Do people really knock on his door just because they got from Wikipedia the address of a property he owns hundreds of miles away?  If they're doing that, they've gotten his address from somewhere else, like the online Allen County property records database, which is where I found it — and from which I've not copied it anywhere.  Try to get something removed based on an argument that's demonstrably a lie (and convince other people that removal is justified on WP:BLPPRIVACY grounds), and you're being quite disruptive.  Finally, reading this story will give even more background; the owner has been fickle, and he won't even explain his motives to government officials!  Nyttend (talk) 19:36, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Disruption occurs, hasn't responded to warnings about legal threats, disruption, nor this discussion. Someone please indef block him until explanation is given, legal threats are retracted, and he agrees to stop pursuing this. gwickwire  talk editing 20:04, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * He could also be construed as violating 3RR at the house article, and he's definitely edit-warring. Even if his individual edits were unproblematic, he would be blockable for edit-warring.  Nyttend (talk) 20:10, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * If you look in the history, you'll see the address has been added and removed several times, but it's been approximately stable without it since March 2012. Nyttend has repeatedly added it back in citing "not censored", which is really not a great reason to do anything. This seems to be a case where someone's got annoyed and provoked, but I don't think demanding indefinite blocks is even remotely appropriate - we're certainly not blameless here. Andrew Gray (talk) 20:17, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Not-censored is a good reason to restore something that's relevant and properly sourced, and articles about buildings always provide their locations when possible; location is a major component relevant historic-sites list, so it's definitely relevant. So I'm at fault for restoring reliably-sourced information when someone's deceiving people to try to get it removed?  Throughout the history of the page, he's claimed to live there when he doesn't, and he's convinced other people that it violates his privacy.  This is very much a case of unclean hands, even on top of the always indef-worthy legal threats and the approximately 5RR violations.  Nyttend (talk) 20:23, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Gwick, you know I love ya, but don't be a DOLT. — PinkAmpers  &#38;  ( Je vous invite à me parler )  09:41, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * This person is way over WP:3RR, has made legal threats, etc. etc. and you're saying we shouldn't block? gwickwire  talk editing 20:28, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I hope the IP editor has also contacted the police about this article at the News-Sentinel, which lists the address of the house in the second sentence. A columnist explains why the owner wants the house removed from the National Register and mentions that it was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. --Elkman (Elkspeak) 20:29, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "Not censored" does not, and never has, mean that we publish all information just because we can! I am entirely sympathetic to claims that a street address should not be published for a private residence.
 * WRT the other details, that story merely says he has a primary address in Connecticut and also rents the house out on occasion; it doesn't say that he does not live there at all. I am really uncomfortable with doing OR based on local news stories to definitively conclude someone is "lying" and "decieving" us, and then to edit-war with them to get information kept in the article, over a several-year period. I'm really disappointed with the way this has been handled, and I really do sympathise with Herber here. Whether or not Wikipedia publishes this information in the end, we've handled it terribly and in a very inflammatory way. Andrew Gray (talk) 20:34, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * We routinely publish addresses for buildings that are the subjects of articles, as long as the addresses are reliably published elsewhere in secondary sources. "Publishing all information because we can" would mean publishing the owner's home address, which is already published by the Allen County government website; there's even an easily-linkable page specifically about this house on the website, but I'm not linking it because we don't need to have in on-wiki.  The address of this house is not private information any more than is the address of the local Holiday Inn.  Nyttend (talk) 20:41, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Where was his email address published?-- Auric    talk  23:45, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * In the Dispute Resolution request, he says something like "I'm the owner and I can proive it, here's my email address". Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:18, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 
 * Regardless, asking for oversight here instead of via email/IRC wasn't a good idea.  little green rosetta $central scrutinizer (talk)$ 00:21, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Nope. And the side comment about Nyttend just made it worse, hence my suggestion of a trout. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:41, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I thought linking to the RL identity of an editor was a violation of WP:OUTING? Darkness Shines (talk) 00:45, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Um... the editor himself posted his identity and e-mail address, and although he claims to be the person who owns the house in question, he doesn't live there, he lives in Connecticut. One has to look at the entire situation. Besides, suppose the owner of a house on the NRHP in which the address is not restricted joins Wikipedia and make their identity known.  It would be unreasonable to expect that we should remove their address from that house's article because of that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:01, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Edits like these (Streisand effect and all that) add nothing of encyclopedic value to an article but seem to be made purely for the purposes of letting somebody know that "we do it because we can!". It's petty crap. I haven't followed all the ins and outs here but it does seem that this John_D._Haynes_House fellah has a legitimate grievance. And by extension then, so does Scjessey. This reminds of the situation with that radio talk show host who did not wish to have his birthdate published on Wikipedia but some guy just insisted on putting it in there, more or less to fuck with him and because s/he knew it upset the guy. I'm not sure if that's the same case here, but "petty" is definitely involved. And yes "Not Censored" is an idiotic and bad faithed defense in situations like these which amounts to "I get to be spiteful and you can't "censor" me!". It's a very sophomoric understanding of what "censored" means. Volunteer Marek 00:50, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Kindly read WP:NPA and heed it by removing your final two sentences. We include locations for any building for which we have reliable sources, and removing the location on the grounds that the National Register people are prohibited from publishing the location (grounds that the owner used, multiple times) is definitely related to "Wikipedia will not remove content because of the internal bylaws of some organizations that forbid information about the organization to be displayed online. Any rules that forbid members of a given organization, fraternity, or religion to show a name or image do not apply to Wikipedia because Wikipedia is not a member of those organizations."  This is far from persistently publishing someone's birth date in defiance of his wishes; that's personal information, while noting the location of a building isn't personal information about the absentee landlord.  It's a restoration of information that was already in the article and shouldn't have been removed in the first place.  Anyway, he was the one who identified himself as the owner, he was the one who used a geolocateable IP address, and he was the one who published an email address that included his name.  When an editor says that he owns a house, it's not WP:OUTING to add links to multiple reliable sources that mention the property owner's name and hometown; he's already said who he is.  So...on top of all those things, he goes way past 3RR and makes legal threats, nobody blocks him, and he's defended for the whole situation.  Nyttend (talk) 01:06, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Highly doubt Marek will heed that request (see other recent events), but anyways, I agree that it's a valid concern. However, the address is public information reported by reliable sources. There's no reason for us to remove it, other than someone complains about it. If we remove everything someone complains about, we won't be a free content good encyclopedia anymore. We should not censor information out because someone complains.  gwickwire  talk editing 01:26, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes there is a good reason for us to remove it: there's no policy that says we have to act like assholes. In fact, quite the opposite, see WP:DICK (you guys might want to report that policy as a "personal attack" on some subsection of the Wikipedia "community"). I don't see any reason for the address to be in there except someone's trying to prove a point: "I get to do it, nyah nyah nyah". Volunteer Marek 01:37, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * So the fact that it is pertinent to the knowledge about the topic means nothing? It's not asshole if this person refuses to read/hear our policies and comments. Nobody is being pointy, we are saying that it is public information in reliable sources that is pertinent to the knowledge about the place. We very routinely (if not almost always) have location in articles about buildings/places, and the fact someone complained about this one isn't a reason to remove it. gwickwire  talk editing 01:42, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * After looking in at the Common discussion, I do wonder if this isn't simply a case of a person getting very creeped out of having photos (and address etc) of their property (house - whether they currently reside there or not is immaterial, and the fact that Nyttend somehow knows that they live "600 miles away" is creepy in itself) taken - by Nyttend! - and posted all over Wikipedia. Hell, I'd be creeped out too. And then on top of that any request to remove this private information are met with the usual "We Iz Not Cenzored!" cries and complete lack of empathy for the situation that this person finds themselves in. And guess what, most people out there don't share this twisted Wikipedia/troll-site mentality (what gwickwire refers to as "this person refuses to hear our policies") of "we do it because we can" so yeah, when they feel like you're messing with them they'll resort to these things called "personal attacks" or sometimes even "legal threats". If you didn't poke'em they wouldn't. Volunteer Marek 01:49, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Do you live in a nationally registered Historic Place? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 02:14, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * If I say "yes", are you going to publish my personal street address? (Actually I do, strangely enough). Volunteer Marek 02:25, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I won't but if you don't want others to do it, move out. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 02:42, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I probably should seeing as how the "Not Censored" crowd seems to think that it's ok for some random jerk on Wikipedia to show up to my house, take a picture of it, and then put it up on this webpage. Anyway, the more serious point is that it doesn't take much to get on the register of Historic Places (and honestly, often people do it for completely unrelated reasons like getting a leg up in some zoning dispute, "historic" in a US context means very little). But that doesn't mean it's an excuse for Wikipedia editors to fuck with people. The OP was right in bringing this issue up here. Volunteer Marek 02:55, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Are people's private residences placed onto that list without their consent, and is that the case here? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 02:59, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * How are we "fucking" with people. He owns the house. He rents it by the (two) night(s). He registered it. Even if he hadn't, the address would still be obviously publically available by now. It might not take much to get on the register, but this is a Frank Lloyd Wright house. It's clearly going to be of public interest with or without zoning dispute legups. --Onorem♠Dil 03:07, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't know why this is being discussed in this venue as it certainly appears to be a content dispute but let me see if I understand this correctly: Someone owns a house designed by the greatest American architect of all time and rents it out as a hotel but insists on keeping the location private. Is that correct? If so, I have some sympathy for the property owner as it's a bit jarring to have its location and appearance be readily available on the Web but you should expect that when it's of intrinsic historical and cultural significance. ElKevbo (talk) 02:38, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_D._Haynes_House&diff=527986784&oldid=527950817 last stable version of the article], from December 2012, did not contain the address. If you ignore any privacy issues, it may have been fine for Nyttend to add it per WP:BOLD, but once the addition was reverted, he should have started a talk page discussion to gain consensus for the addition. 28bytes (talk) 03:08, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 2 edits...a week apart...for easily verifiable information...--Onorem♠Dil 03:21, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clarifying the chronology a bit; I've refactored my comment accordingly. 28bytes (talk) 03:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Would it be satisfactory if we mentioned only the street it is on? Also, if we do remove the address, what should be done about the geo-coordinates? Chris857 (talk) 03:18, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * That should be worked out on the article's talk page. 28bytes (talk) 03:21, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * My first thought was that Mason was right and including someone's address in the article about them is horrible. Then I discovered that it was an article about the house itself and has nothing to do with a person. Then I also discovered that the owner doesn't even live there. Thus, I concluded that he was just omitting information and presenting twisted facts to pursue his own agenda. The address should obviously be included in an article on a notable house that is on the historic registry, just like we do for other notable places and buildings. Silver  seren C 19:28, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The user apparently wants the article on his property to be deleted not merely remove the address .Now he needs to contact WP:ORTS if he wants the article deleted for privacy reasons.He is apparently not here for editing merely to get it deleted and making threats including legal threats is clearly unacceptable.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 19:58, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Silver seren, multiple experienced, good faith editors, including [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_D._Haynes_House&diff=527986784&oldid=527950817 JohnOfReading], [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_D._Haynes_House&diff=546611455&oldid=546609772 SarekOfVulcan] and myself disagree that it "obviously" must be included, especially when it is distressing to the homeowner to do so. This is not the White House we're talking about here. We do retain some editorial discretion over what details to include about a property, and we should use that discretion responsibly. If there's a consensus on the talk page to include the address, that's one thing, but edit-warring it in over the objections of both the property owner and multiple long-term Wikipedians is not the answer. 28bytes (talk) 19:59, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * And there are several experienced Wikipedians here who think it should be included, so please don't try and act like i'm the only one with that opinion. What reason exactly is there for us not to include the address in the article of a NRHP building that isn't even lived in by the owner, but rented out because of its status? This definitely isn't a privacy issue. Silver  seren C 20:12, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Then make your case for inclusion on the article talk page. You speak in absolutes, but you are not the sole arbiter of whether this is a privacy issue, and I think you will find that quite a few people, such as Doncram below, will disagree with your "ruling" on that. Doncram makes a very compelling case, I think, that we should respect the homeowner's wishes, and it's shame you summarily dismissed it instead of giving it the consideration it deserves. 28bytes (talk) 20:44, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment This is not just any NRHP-listed place, most of which have addresses published in the National Register's database and announced in NRHP nomination documents.  It is one of relatively few "Address restricted" places, where the agreement to list on the register was partly conditional on the address being kept confidential.  And where NRHP documents would be provided to the public only in redacted form, with the address and other site-identifying info blacked out.  Listing as "address restricted" has been done for many archeological sites, where publishing the address could lead to damage to the resource.  There are NRHP editors, including me, who believe that Wikipedia should not publish the address or geo-location information for such places, unless and until the "Address restricted" restriction is lifted, and that we strive to avoid the possibility or appearance of causing harm.  It is sometimes possible to find an obscure or other published reference to the location, that reveals a location, because the internet has grown so much, or because locals will speak to an interested visitor looking to find a location to take a photo, when the owner would have had reasonable expectation it is still private info.  Which was not anticipated by the National register national staff, or by state staff, or by the owner who would have otherwise refused to allow for the archeological resource or other resource to become NRHP-listed.  In this case, the fact that the address was ferreted out from obscure minutes of a committee, and that there is indication that the site was deliberately listed as "address restricted", suggests to me that removing the address and coordinates would be best.  As far as I understand it, it is not a situation where there is now a lot of public knowledge of the location, i.e. where a public park to present an archeological resource behind a fence has been created, and where the location is very public (in which case the National Register information should be updated to give the address, too.).  Rather this is a case, I gather, where the National Register federal staff and the corresponding state staff would more likely object to the disclosure of the address information in Wikipedia.


 * There is precedent for simply removing address or other identifying information, by Wikipedia editors, when an NRHP-listed property owner objected. For example, I and editor Pubdog cooperated with a concerned owner of a property in Maryland, and we deleted from Commons a photo of the property that had been taken by Pubdog, based on the owner's concern.  Although technically the photo was legally taken (from a public street and so on) and we did not have to remove it legally, but we did, and I think that was ethically correct.  First, do no harm....  (And, about this incident, no need to state the property name or its address and so on, here, okay?)


 * My own policy, about walking around a historic district and taking photos, is: if a person comes out and objects to their house being photographed, I don't.  I would delete any photos I have, and definitely not post anything.  There's no need to upset people, even if they are not completely clear about what is legal or not. -- do  ncr  am  20:04, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * @Doncram: Your personal policy is perhaps laudable, but the homeowner is in the wrong, legally. In the United States any building can be photographed from a public street.  You cannot violate private property, but as long as you're shooting from the street, the homewoner (or building owner) cannot stop you from taking photographs.  That's Federal law. Your personal policies have no bearing on this matter. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:42, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You do realize that all you have to do is Google "John D. Haynes House" and all the information, including the address, is right there on the right side, huge font, immediately viewable, right? This was never private. The guy has a website for it, which is the first search result, that's all about the house and how to rent a night there. This isn't some person who just lives there now and wants to keep their life private. Silver  seren C 20:18, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * That's an incredibly misleading statement. The homeowner's website does not list the address. The fact that Google displays the address on the right side of the search results is because Google is pulling it from Wikipedia. You're not seriously arguing that we should include it on Wikipedia because Wikipedia includes it, are you? 28bytes (talk) 20:44, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * It's pulling the top part, yes, but there's no indication that it's pulling the lower part (especially since that information seems to be different than what we have). Silver  seren C 20:58, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * This is one of those situations that Wikipedia can't fix. I really sympathize with someone who wants to keep their private home private, and Wikipedia should (generally) respect that.
 * ... however, this isn't one of those cases. It's property he advertises publicly for rent, the address is already out on the web, and the actual geolocation coordinates are even out there. Plug either into Google Street view, bam, looking right at it. The cat's out of the bag. The fact that it's an historic house lends even more weight to making the address available.
 * I looked through our List of Frank Lloyd Wright works and there's either a postal address or geocoordinates on them (or both). The only exceptions are the stub articles. This house really wouldn't be an exception. A compromise might be to remove the postal address, but leave the geolocation in. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 20:57, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Good gracious! I did not expect to cause such a mess when I opened this thread. Basically, I have WP:DRN watchlisted because I volunteer there from time to time. An edit there was automatically tagged as having an email address, so I had a quick look at it. I saw that a person had posted it out of frustration for what appeared at first glance to be someone unnecessarily posting a full address. I did not have time to investigate the matter any further, but because I was concerned about the publishing of the two pieces of personal data I thought it would be wise to bring it to the attention of administrators. When I opened the thread, I specifically mentioned that I'd only glanced at the matter and that I may have misinterpreted what was going on, so calls for me to be trouted for my action seem rather unreasonable. I said it "doesn't look too good for Nyttend" because it very much appeared from the article's edit history as if Nyttend was forcing personal info into the article against the express wishes of the owner and without any discussion on the talk page. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:24, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe an RFC is in order, but this doesn't seem like an ANI issue as it is more about content (granted, and how policy dictates it) rather than a behavioral issue. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:01, 31 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Scjessey, you were right to bring this here, and it still has not been satisfactorily explained why an editor or editors should be able to repeatedly insert a piece of information over the objections of multiple editors and without a talk page consensus to do so. The article was stable for over three months without this information; as I said above it's fine (setting aside privacy concerns for the moment) to be bold and add it, but when the addition is reverted, it's not fine to wait a couple of days and re-insert it. If WP:BRD had been followed, we wouldn't be here. Nevertheless, I believe I see a way forward, which I will lay out in detail here a little later today or tomorrow once I have a little free time. In the meantime I would ask interested editors to take a pause and not do anything to escalate the situation. 28bytes (talk) 16:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. It's good to know I did the right thing. I shall leave the matter in your capable hands. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:24, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I disagree. This is not an issue of making otherwise private information public, and to frame it that way is entirely misleading, since the information was deemed private by one source only, at the owner's request, but has since been released to the world at large, on the Internet, by the owner himself, as well as being generally available from very reputable and reliable sources.  Further, Scjessey should not have brought the matter here without having done some investigation, and certainly not before talking to Nyttend directly on their talk page to see what was up, which is always a first step to take before coming to AN/I.  In short, there is no privacy issue here, this discussion is unnecessary, and Scjessey should still be trouted.  Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:21, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * BMK, I agree with you that talking to Nyttend beforehand would have been preferable, but I think you are badly mistaken regarding the homeowner's privacy concerns. Just because "the cat is out of the bag" and that information is available elsewhere on the Internet does not absolve us of the responsibility to consider the impact that making it available here has. There are many articles, "Star Wars Kid" among the most famous of them, in which Wikipedians have given sufficient respect to people's legitimate privacy concerns that the editorial decision was made to omit of piece of information that is not crucial to the understanding of the article's subject. This may be another such case where consensus is to err on the side of discretion. Or it may not. Either way we are ethically obliged to weigh the concerns of the homeowner against the laudable goal of making the encyclopedia as comprehensive as it can be. I have sent an email to the homeowner in hopes that we may be able to reach a compromise agreeable to everyone. 28bytes (talk) 22:51, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We have absolutely no responsibility, legally, ethically or morally, or in Wikipedia policy, to follow the homeowner's every whim and add and remove information each time he changes his mind. IF the homeowner had never changed his mind about keeping the address restricted, your point would be valid, but that is not the case.  Once the homewoner himself releases the addresses, agrees to a local historical designation (with address attached), and then  advertises  the property as being available for rental as a hotel, banking on its status as the creation of one of America's greatest architects, the homeowner no longer has the option of changing his mind, and there is zero requirement whatsoever for us to take his later misgivings, expressed dishonestly and with hostility, into account.   Again, if the guy lived there, it might be a different story, but in this specific fact situation we are in the right to publish the address, and no further permission from him is required. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:50, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. Oversighting email, and if (not part of the property's name, and not notable otherwise) real name(s) of the owners seems logical. But the place is notable, and the photo should obviously stay (it doesn't seem to contain any private info, as far as I can tell). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:15, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Talk:GW 501516
an ip editor, User_talk:220.244.41.132, has for the last few hours been adding WP:SOAP style speculation on the mechanism of carcinogenicity of the drug in question, and perhaps more troublingly, editing other users' talk page comments. This despite a number of other editors urging them to read the relevant policies that WP operates under. -- [ UseTheCommandLine  ~/ talk  ] # _  07:21, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * We now have additional ip editors removing signatures and altering comments on the talk page. -- [ UseTheCommandLine  ~/ talk  ] # _  08:11, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

As IP Administrator it is a legal requirement that I ensure all users identified as using this open access IP to identify their comments or not to include non-academic commentary that do not reflect the policy of the organisation. Any other users ("User") who so chooses to reverse that administrative decision is deemed to have supported the removed content, and in so doing takes ownership of that said content. The User will also absolves this organisation of litigation by other parties. As users of this IP are generally professionals with content experts on various medical and legal issues these intellectual property materials are not moderated by the IP Administrator. -IP Administrator of 220.244.41.132 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.244.41.132 (talk) 13:29, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Gotta love it when someone with a limited grasp of English is writing legalese. Nothing in here means anything at all, and the legal threats, if that is what they are, are hollow. I see that Rexx is active on that talk page, as are SmartSE and some other trusted editors; I have faith that they can keep things in hand. UseTheCommandLine, I'm sure you know this and this isn't really for your ears, but you are welcome to remove/revert WP:FORUM-style comments from the talk page, after careful consideration of course. Drmies (talk) 04:07, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Today's XKCD
Not really an administrator matter, but thought you'd like to know that today's XKCD contains a nice "hover-over" donation beg for the WMF. Give him some love. :) Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 08:38, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * That dog is getting huge. m.o.p  11:10, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * If only we had a .edu domain name. It would be fun to see "Hey, Wikipedia students! Have you applied to [company] yet?" -- Guerillero &#124;  My Talk  13:57, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Still, we could protect the page Shotcrete which is vandalized a lot because of this. Let's play the game... Have a nice day. Letartean (talk) 17:41, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The page being targeted seems to be moving almost every few minutes now, to the point where xkcd is only giving hints at the article instead of linking directly.    — Soap — 19:05, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * For those administrators trying to figure out which page is being targeted, this edit filter is fairly useful, although the vast majority of hits are false positives it does still pick up the pages (and it pretty obvious by just looking at the article title or checking the edits if they are vandalism or not) - Kingpin13 (talk) 23:32, 1 April 2013 (UTC)


 * xkcd is one hell of a fan site, with no fewer than 80 primary sources/external links. Who owns this article? A K-pop fan who quit listening to music? Drmies (talk) 04:15, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

The actions of administrator Basalisk on the Falkand Islands article
I would like an independent administrator to look at the edits being reverted by Basalisk on the Falkand Islands page. I just added this this and they reverted me saying it was "POV re-wording". What aggrieves me more is this person has obviously no knowledge of history or what is contained within the other articles on the subject. Being this is the primary article on the subject (surely it should be the most reflective of all the others); I therefore added a reference required and the statements contained within.

But what has particularly annoyed me is that I have been accused by an admin for a POV violation, when in fact, if they knew this subject, I corrected the wording to be less POV! Firstly the Spanish evicted the British by a superior show of force they did not "attack" as the original version suggested, secondly the treaty that ended the Falkands Crisis was at the behest of the King of Spain.

This site lives by the so-called mantra assume good faith but that does not seem to be the case when you have people with scant knowledge of topics wielding great power and going around trying to pigeon-hole things to the way they like them. In other reverting anything that their "friends/allies/cohorts" didn't write.

I would therefore like someone to have a word with Basalisk and get them to explain themselves. Most importantly because, by the looks of things, this is not Basalisk's first incident. I adhered to this site's "rules" so I don't see why the people in charge shouldn't either - or better still know what they're actually editing! In my experience (and I have been here for a very long time) they will only get worse. Remember RodHull because I do! 86.176.8.94 (talk) 17:52, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Far as I can see 86 did add a source so I wouldn't dismiss this straight off. MIVP - (Can I Help?) (Maybe a bit of tea for thought?) 17:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you should have given him a chance to reply on his talk page before bringing it here. Also, you are required to notify him of this discussion. –  Richard  BB  17:58, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I've let him know for the IP. MIVP - (Can I Help?) (Maybe a bit of tea for thought?) 18:02, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks like a plain old content disagreement to me - Basalisk has not acted in an admin capacity, so admin status is not relevant. I say go talk - and then follow WP:DR if that fails to work. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:03, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Seconded, this discussion doesn't belong here. (Yet, anyways.) Sergecross73   msg me   18:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We seriously need an essay about not blaming others of a POV until you've taken the time to do some self reflection on your own viewpoints first.--v/r - TP 18:10, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, today is the anniversary of one of the most emotionally-charged events in the islands' history and the article is linked from the main page. So it should come as no surprise that there have been a fair few reverts on grounds of POV editing, from several editors. Note also that the point here has not been raised on talk: the IP apparently felt that the appropriate forum for discussion here was ANI. Kahastok talk 18:22, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I can see nothing that would require ANI attention here, and nothing wrong in Basalisk's edit. One can agree or disagree with either of the versions, but the fact that someone reverts an edit (that hasn't been discussed) to an article on a touchy subject is understandable.Jeppiz (talk) 18:29, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I remember RodHull aka User:Rodhullandemu as well. I don't see a presumption of bad faith on behalf of Basalisk and as someone familiar with the subject matter there are serious problems with the edit.  As far as sourcing goes, yes the IP added a source, but if you checked the source, Johnson did not draw the conclusions referred to.  Johnsons pamphlet was actually written to draw precisely the opposite conclusion and was intended to deflect criticism of a peace deal with Spain.  Clear case of citation fraud if you ask me.  I see nothing worthy of intervention against Basalisk acting in the capacity of a content editor not an admin on this occasion.  Wee Curry Monster talk 18:31, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Page curation reviewer rights


I am concerned about User:Lgcsmasamiya's use of many Wikipedia tools (see ), not least of which are the reviewer rights they deploy most often under Page Curation. Their talk page shows that many of their actions have been reversed by other editors. They do not confine their lack of understanding to reviewer rights, regrettably, but appear to use many tools with an imperfect understanding of the policies and procedures on Wikipedia.

Their talk page shows no attempt to engage with any of the people having concerns about their actions, otherwise we could use a quiet word and education process to help them understand that their actions are out of kilter with how WIkipedia works.

I have fired a strong warning shot at the current foot of their talk page, but the lack of any prior engagement does not give me confidence that this will bear fruit. Thus I am opening this discussion in the hope that they may receive the education they need. They have many good edits, but are in danger of being a wholly negative benefit for the project if we do not help them. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 15:46, 28 March 2013 (UTC) The user has declared on their talk page that they are new. Newness is relative, and their contributions log shodul be checked. I feel we are at a WP:COMPETENCE stage here. This goes back to my original concern which is one of improving their wiki-education. I do not like the blocking of users who have the right spirit even when they use the tools imperfectly, even for a short acting block. If they will engage, and it appears that they mght, then I believe mentoring is the right way, and this includes allowing them to continue reviewing and using other tools. If they express or exhibit an inability or an unwillingness to learn I feel we should think again. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 22:17, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Whoa. Drmies (talk) 16:08, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * They arn't constructive and this is a side point to the real matter at hand, but Tim Trent, you really need to stop calling it vandalism. Please read WP:NOTVAND.  That said, something does need to be done.  Can we find a mentor?--v/r - TP 16:13, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait--Page Curation is a tool, not a right, correct? All that's required is being autoconfirmed, so there is no box we can uncheck. TParis, good points. Drmies (talk) 16:15, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * That's correct, Drmies; the "reviewer" right refers to pending changes, not to the Page Curation tool, so removing it wouldn't be helpful in this case. Writ Keeper (t + c) 16:18, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * No probs, TP. I simply chose the best available warning shot. I reserve the right to make mistakes and to be corrected :) Fiddle Faddle (talk) 16:49, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You have no rights on Wikipedia, no mistakes, NOW BURN IN HELL!!!!--v/r - TP 17:25, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * At risk of having a religion vs atheism discussion, I accept what you say at face value. All my friends will be in the place you postulate anyway :) Now, after edit conflict, I imagine one can remove reviewer rights if a discussion has not borne fruit, but the odd deployment of other tools does require mentoring as well. The paradox is that there are also excellent decisions in the contributions list. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 17:29, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * After the list of un-Christ-like things I've done, I'll see you there.--v/r - TP 17:46, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Fiddle Faddle, there are no user rights that you can take away to prevent someone from using the page curation tool. The only method at our disposal to do that is to enact a topic ban.  That would be the next logical step if the user refuses to educate themselves on how to patrol properly.  ‑Scottywong | converse _  18:11, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * For the record, they have never once edited their talk page. A block might actually be the next step to get their attention.--v/r - TP 18:21, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * This has been going on for months, with no sign of Lgcsmasamiya getting any clue and never a response - I think we really need a block here -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:43, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I mistakenly thought that reviewer rights could be revoked in the case of misuse, but apparently that only applies to pending changes reviewer rights. I don't think this editor should be reviewing new pages until they can articulate that they understand the criteria for marking pages as reviewed. Responses like "I'm new here and i'm trying to do my best reviewing new articles, i do'nt understand why i will be blocked by "Vanndalism"." lead me to believe that they are may not have the competency for the task. Perhaps asking them to stop reviewing articles would be sufficient. - MrX 21:16, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The issue may also be language. The editor's home wiki is es, though they have made no edits there. See Special:CentralAuth/Lgcsmasamiya which shows 1,280, presumably more now, edits on en, and no edits elsewhere, with their first edit in this diff. As first edits go it is the standard one expects from a user feeling their way, but I am concerned that they are still feeling their way today. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 22:30, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Lgcsmasamiya is continuing on his course without responding to this complaint. For instance here he puts Lou Grant (season 1) into, which is incorrect since specials are individual programs, not seasons of a show. He is now up to 1,291 edits and many of these may need to be reverted unless someone can persuade him to stop. My own effort on his talk page was not successful. A block per WP:COMPETENCE is appropriate unless people are willing to do all the reverts necessary. EdJohnston (talk) 05:28, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've issued a 24-hour block, which anyone is welcome to revert if we get an adequate response -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:39, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * And I've reverted a couple more unreferenced tags - there were no inline citations, but there were "References" sections with sources. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:49, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The thing I find most depressing is that, hidden among the less than competent edits are good decisions. The problem is that there are 1295 edits that all need to be checked, some of which are excellent decisions. I suppose that what will happen is that they will be blocked here indefinitely eventually and, based upon track record, will not learn. That makes me wonder about their transferring their interest to their home wiki. Their edits to Commons all appear to have been reverted as well. Does 'our' responsibility extend to other wikis, or are 'we' insular? Fiddle Faddle (talk) 09:10, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's sad when someone with that kind of enthusiasm won't listen, slow down, and learn. But let's hope that 24 hours might make them think. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:23, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I am pleased to say that the editor has returned after their block. One positive aspect is that, certainly for the moment, imperfect reviews have ceased. The edits appear to be the adding of potentially reasonable categories to multiple articles. I am not competent to judge whether a moth is an 'animal' for cataloguing purposes, hence my usage of 'potentially'. A negative aspect is that there has been no accepting of offers to engage in discussion, not any apparent openness to offers of help. I've restored this thread from archive in order to request people to keep a watching brief on this editor and to help them when they stray. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 08:07, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Incidentally, xyr userpage appears to consist solely of a months-old misplaced comment from another user. Someone want to mop that up? — PinkAmpers  &#38;  ( Je vous invite à me parler )  10:03, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Was this a reply to this thread? if so I am lost. Please clarify. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 10:16, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm fairly sure it was, although I don't see why "xyr" was used. The comment on there probably should be removed. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 10:38, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I prefer to leave folk to handle their own user pages. I see what you and PinkAmpersnad mean now, looking at the editor in question's user page, but I feel it woudl be an intrusion. I'm sure they feel ill at ease as it is, and I do not want to increase that feeling. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 10:45, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I considered removing it, but left it for either a sysop or this editor. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 11:29, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * xyr is one method editors use to remain gender neutral when they don't know the preferred pronoun of the person theynare referring to. Nil Einne (talk) 12:33, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems that this editor is now pursuing a more reasonable, though idiosyncratic course. However there is no answer to multiple attempts to engage them in conversation, nor any response to offers of help. The short acting block seems to have worked, but I am unsure whether this will continue. Time will tell. May I suggest that eyes are kept, form time to time, on the contributions record and further warning shots and, indeed, friendly overtures, are fired and issued at the right times. I appreciate that some folk edit here without ever engaging in conversations. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 08:16, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That sounds positive - I'll have a look now and then. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:24, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I am afraid it is still going on. I have left a strong word of advice on their talk page. BsZ is aware. I suggest their activity is monitored closely and editing behaviour is compared with acceptable practices. I fear that this may involve micromanagement, or multiple blocks. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 20:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm mystified as to why they would go back to reviewing articles without substantively addressing the competency issues that we raised. I think we need to consider indefing until we get the user to acknowledge the issues with a commitment to stay away from reviewing articles. - MrX 20:23, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You may wish to read the one word response on the user's talk page before reaching a conclusion, and my reply to it. I intend to continue to be very kind and very firm in my dealings with this editor. I suspect Asperger's spectrum disorder from the behaviour, and feel we need to continue to assuem good faith while working out the best way to contain the issue. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 20:26, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've added a "bad cop" response too (well, not too bad ;-). There's good faith here, certainly - but I think we need to get them away from page curation and onto something else, or maybe into mentorship? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My vote would be for mentorship, but it may take another shot across the bows to make it appeal. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 20:49, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to keep you posted, I've placed a pretty solid warning on their talk page. I think we are getting through, but have my doubts. I'm wary of a couple of us being the sole players here and fear it may be a bad thing, looking as if only two folk care. At the same time I am not asking to raise a posse. Well measured and firm-but-kind responses are in order here. My rationale is that their good edits are excellent, their work ethic is excellent, but their havoc is true havoc. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 09:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Copyright violation in inaccessible .js settings user page
Could anyone who has a spare moment please delete this user page, which is likely to qualify for speedy deletion under criterion G11 (and certainly qualifies under criterion G12, since it appears to be a straightforward copy-and-paste of the copyrighted text here)? Edit-counter opt-in pages are locked to all users except those to whom they belong, and I am therefore unable to tag the page for speedy deletion. Many thanks.  Super Mario  Man  13:29, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. Writ Keeper (t + c) 13:33, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

User:Official Lists
Can someone block this repeat offender please? They've been adding gobs of self-serving unreferenced material to House of Frankopan and made a legal threat against me previously; as soon as someone unblocked them when they apparently withdrew it, their tirade at the article continued unabated. They've never, to my knowledge, engaged in anything resembling the normal editorial process, and my patience is thoroughly exhausted. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 09:03, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * You haven't notified the user of this discussion. Also I don't see any evidence of any attempt to engage the user in conversation, there's nothing on the article talk page or on the user's talk page. Canterbury Tail   talk  12:31, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, notified now.
 * They've been the topic of conversation at Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive779 (of which they were notified) and their problematic behavior is extensively documented at Talk:House of Frankopan - another user actually mentioned them by name over there back in September 2012. I'm not sure how we can engage someone in conversation when they're edit warring for months and making legal threats. Per WP:BRD, the onus is on them to engage in conversation - it's their bold edits that have been reverted. Over and over again. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 13:10, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It occurs to me that I omitted one thing - they've never really responded to the queries of anyone who complained; there's just a flurry of assorted assumptions of bad faith, "libellous information and reports by gossip", "personal problems", "a slur", "lies and insults, based on some personal grudge". They've utterly failed at WP:AGF ages ago, we'd be silly to keep assuming the same of them. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 15:40, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Did Canterbury Tail even read your original post? It clearly states that the troublesome user had made a legal threat against you in the past. That tells me this has been an ongoing problem that has been discussed in the past, which kind of makes the "attempts to engage the user in conversation" statement invalid, particularly if they've been threatening you. I would be a very happy person if people here would stop obsessing over silly trifles and take the time to read and think about posts before brusquely replying with "you didn't notify" or "it doesn't look like you tried to talk to them", or some other perceived procedural oversight. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy so let's all quit treating it like one? Please? - Who is John Galt? ✉ 17:01, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes I did read it. The user was blocked indefinitely before, and then unblocked when they agreed to retract the threat which they did. Since the block was lifted the user has made no threats, and in fact has made no edits other than their edits to the articles. Since the unblock happened there has been no discussions on the pages in question that the edit wars are about (it is an editing dispute at this point) and no attempt to engage the editor since that time on why their edits may be considered unacceptable. The article edits since the unblock have absolutely nothing to do with the threats made before the original block and also nothing to do with the block (blocked for legal threats) and shouldn't be considered as such if you check the user in question's edit history. The only interaction from anyone to this user since their unblock has been teh reverting of their edits with zero explanation, not even a comment in an edit summary as to why the edits are unacceptable (sorry there was a single comments in a revert consisting of "rv Official Lists whitewashing and puffery yet again". So yes attempts need to be made to engage this user now and don't appear to be being made. If the user is to be considered for a block again then some kind of interaction is necessary for good faith, and to prove they are being uncooperative. Just saying they made threats in the past and are now editing again after their block was isn't sufficient to issue a block. Canterbury Tail   talk  19:06, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Er, how can you possibly say that their edits have "absolutely nothing to do with the threats" when they're a repetition of the exact same pattern of editing and the exact same content dispute? And by "content dispute" I really just mean their egregious POV pushing that they have consistently engaged in for months or years now, never actually discussing their problematic changes on the article Talk page. What possible additional proof that they are being uncooperative do we need other than their consistent lack of cooperation? --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 22:44, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

In the latest round, they wrote:


 * This entry has (again!) been corrected as there are some factual errors. For example, a certain Ivan Mirnik is supposed to have 'confronted' Ingrid Frankopan although I hear from her she has never met Mirnik. Lpuis Frankopan was not 'ejected' from any org

So Ingrid Frankopan is someone they "hear from" - apparently the issue is WP:COI. How many more policies does this person have to violate before they're blocked? --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 09:24, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the latest batch of edits I've rolled back - they should be self-explanatory, but just in case I'll explain: the removal of references to the dispute about the status of this modern-day family as descendents of the Frankopans is egregiously biased. The cited article is a secondary source of much greater weight than the self-published geneaology web sites; it was published by the Croatian daily Jutarnji list, which is a reliable source when reporting about mainstream Croatian affairs. If Jutarnji list says there's an issue with X in Croatia, there's no doubt whatsoever that there's an issue with X in Croatia. We can haggle about the details, but removing the entire notion is blatant censorship/whitewashing. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 09:28, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not denying that there is an editing issue with their edits, the point I'm trying to make is this hasn't gone through the paces to require administrative action at this point. You say their edits are COI, yet I see nothing on their talk page trying to explain that to them. There is no engagement on the users edits on their talk page whatsoever. No COI explanations, no reliable source clarifications just the odd boilerplate warning. So try and engage the user, explain to them on their talk why their edits don't work. If they continue a pattern of I'm Not Listening at a later point then maybe administrator action will be required then, but not now.
 * I also note that no other administrators are willing to get involved in this conversation, and while I can't speak for their motivations there must be a reason. I just don't see anything for an administrator to get involved with at this point and with the lack of engagement no one wants to spend their time going through all the user in question's edits to figure out what is happening.
 * So my advice is to engage them on their talk page and not to continue what is an edit war. If the user is uncooperative and you've tried the traditional means of interacting with them, then come back with diffs indicating the problematic behaviour and someone will undoubtedly take steps. Canterbury Tail   talk  11:54, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but the entire "contribution" of this user already screams "I'm Not Listening". Please do read Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive779 that I've linked above, where no less than three other admins expressed grave concerns about them. They haven't really interacted with anyone, those few messages left at User:FactStraight's talk page weren't communication so much as violation of WP:AGF - I've already linked to them and quoted them. Those links are to diffs that demonstrate their problematic behaviour. The link to Talk:House of Frankopan demonstrates their problematic behaviour - they're not talking about their edits despite the fact other users complained extensively about it. The history of the House of Frankopan article shows you their edit summaries:
 * The accurate version can be substantiated by documents, Please leave this now. - WP:V, WP:OWN violations
 * For example, a certain Ivan Mirnik is supposed to have 'confronted' Ingrid Frankopan although I hear from her she has never met Mirnik. - misreading of referenced material, WP:COI
 * Lpuis Frankopan was not 'ejected' from any org - WP:V violation
 * Legal action is being taken against the person who edited this section on 16 Dec 2012 as the changes are untrue or defamatory. - WP:LEGAL violation for which they've been blocked
 * The only other edit summary they left (most of the time they left none) was
 * Undid revision 511733043 by AnomieBOT (talk)
 * So while edit-warring with everyone else, they've also edit-warred with a bot. *facepalm*


 * Trying to engage this user in discussion is like trying to tilt windmills here - they've reverted FactStraight in September 2012 and they're now reverting me, but nothing's really changed - they're still adding the same set of fringe theories to an article. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 15:24, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Legal threat against WMF by 50.53.149.122
has [ issued] a legal threat against WMF on my talk page. Can a sysop look into this as soon as possible? — DragonLord ( talk / contribs ) 16:58, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Frontier Communications is shown as the NetName in the WHOIS. Dunno if this'll help but it's just there in case it does. MIVP - (Can I Help?) (Maybe a bit of tea for thought?) 17:02, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That's just the ISP. Frontier's customer is the individual or company making the threat. GabrielF (talk) 17:20, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

E-Mailing WMF Legal as we speak. MIVP - (Can I Help?) (Maybe a bit of tea for thought?) 17:12, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have a bad feeling we're going to need an Office action on Breyer State University... — DragonLord ( talk / contribs ) 17:28, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If anyone has contact with this user, just ask them to email legal-at-wikimedia.org. That's the correct way to handle things like these. § FreeRangeFrog croak 17:45, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

i already E-Mailed Legal with regards to the threat pointing them to Dragon's user page and this ANI thread. MIVP - (Can I Help?) (Maybe a bit of tea for thought?) 17:50, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree they need to be notified, but I think it's an idle threat. First, the message claims to come for a representive of the accrediting agency, but seems from the other wording to be representing the interests of the university. What's more, it admits the university is "in process of acquiring accreditation", which means that it is still unaccredited, just as the article says. It further claims the original article was written by ceo's of competing organization--i.e., other for-profit distance education colleges. However, almost all the content here has been contributed by   well-known wp editors editing a variety of topics ; the original one-line article saying nothing about its accreditation status was contrib by an i.p. in the days when that was possible; all possibly negative information has seen repeated attempts at removal  first by an editor named "Bsuinfosys" until they were blocked, and then by a variety of ip addresses.  Pending any further office action, I'm full-protecting for 3 days.  DGG ( talk ) 18:07, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree about the seriousness of the threat, and thus the point of having them contact Legal directly. That's what separates the wheat from the chaff. If they're not going to send formal notice, then there's nothing to worry about here beyond the routine "omg lawsuit" screed that can be dealt with in the usual manner. § FreeRangeFrog croak 19:28, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Can an administrator extend the block on in light of the legal threat and use the {{subst:Uw-lblock}} template?  — DragonLord ( talk / contribs ) 19:32, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The history of the article is littered with sockpupptery and attempts at astroturfing/whitewashing . - Who is John Galt? ✉ 14:46, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * SPI filed . Also, I noticed that one of the SAP socks was blocked in 2008 also for legal threats. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 15:14, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry
This needs to be looked into. It it is not reasonable to expect a seven-day wait for action against a duck sock. Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 03:15, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I recommend you phone up the SPI Clerk Office and tell them to drop real-life right away and hurry up clicking buttons to prevent some person from committing impardonable acts of stupidity, because clearly Wikipedia is deserted and nobody is on hand to revert them. :) · Salvidrim!  ·  &#9993;  03:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Sockpuppeteers are my pet peeve. I wish that there were more admins looking into the SPI backlog. Condolences... Binksternet (talk) 03:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We're very backlogged right now, which is why things are taking so long. But if any admins are interested in becoming SPI clerks, we could always use a few more. --Rschen7754 03:49, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you meshoggene? I saw the Malleus report: that shit is complicated, and I'm sure nobody wants people like me to have even more power over matters they barely understand. Can't we just put Elockid on payroll? I read somewhere (well, on Wikipedia...) that the WMF pulled in $42 million; surely we can pay a couple of geeks who can't get a date anyway to do nothing but this--it beats tech support or stocking shelves at Publix. Drmies (talk) 04:13, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * LOL, I don't need all of that $42M, just maybe an 80th of it, and I'll go careening through SPI until there are no socks left to darn. Binksternet (talk) 04:26, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The thing is, this isn't the sort of case that should take more than primary school reading ability and a block button to deal with. It doesn't need a CU or an extended investigation of any kind. All an admin needs to do is read through the page, skim through the archives, and it'll be done with a single click. If that's too much to ask, just sysop me for twenty seconds and I'll do it. Heh. :) Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 04:32, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Binksternet (talk) 04:41, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd like to respond something witty again but you've helped me realize my lack of primary school writing ability, and thus eigwanlfd G prtgsghw. :) · Salvidrim!  ·  &#9993;  05:47, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't say you lacked primary school reading ability; I'm sure that's something that most of our admins possess. Whether it's a lack of free time, motivation, or a simple desire to let someone else deal with it that results in it taking this long, I don't know. But I strongly feel that after a week, someone should take the initiative. Or make me an admin so I can. :) Someguy1221 was kind enough to self-endorse a CU request, so I hope to see the back of this shortly. Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 11:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I know its a perennial proposal that never gains any traction, but if it were possible -- even temporarily -- to be granted only the minimum admin powers needed to clear a non-checkuser SPI (possibly with an edit restriction to forbid any non-SPI use?) there are users like me who would be willing to pitch in and clear the backlog. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:09, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose that's included in the "unbundling" option over at the reality-warpingly huge RfA RfC. :) · Salvidrim!  ·  &#9993;  05:47, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion - fire up IRC. Almost always an admin willing to do you a solid on there. @dmries, it's "mashugana"  little green rosetta $central scrutinizer (talk)$ 04:49, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, the adjective is "meshugge" (spelling according to Leo Rosten's The Joys of Yiddish). "Meshuggener" (male) or "meshuggeneh" (female) are the nouns. So either "Are you meshugge?" or "What, are you a meshuggener?" would work.  Alternately, "mishegoss" is good too.  "I saw the Malleus report: it was mishegoss!" Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:10, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, "meshugge", as in the scene from Blazing Saddles featuring a Yiddish-speaking Native American. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:57, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That's what I was trying to cite from memory, Bugs. I hear now that I got it wrong. Drmies (talk) 14:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Think that's bad? This was last edited on the 19th of March, by me, and that was solely to tidy things up. It was last touched by an admin/CU on the 16th of March. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 18:16, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Technical 13
likes to mess with signatures and to argue about what is and isn't allowed in them. He doesn't edit articles much, preferring to focus on his user space. He came to my attention here, a month ago. At that time I warned him to get rid of the blinking character in his signature. He did this. I then noticed further signature-related shenanigans and gave him this final warning. When he continued, I blocked his account indefinitely. It seems clear he is not here to work on the project, and that his editing style is extremely demanding on other editors' time. What do others think? --John (talk) 09:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My first and only meeting with this editor was his instruction on my talk page to fix my signature, an instruction I refused. His approach was then to open a DRN incident about this (obviously wrong forum, but disruptive and annoying). I find him to be abrasive and exhibiting defensive hostility. The incident caused me to lose and good faith I might have had, and to view him as an agent of disruption. His talk page is impenetrable, with redirects hither and yon, and appears to be a 'look at me' billboard of complexity. His signature is patronising, and I find him appearing all over the place despite my having no intention of ever interacting with him. He takes up too much space in his current incarnation.
 * Bring him into the fold and we may have a valuable editor. As it is I find his attitude not to be collegiate. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 09:58, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, your signature is annoying per Signatures. Why the heck should editors have to maintain a mental map of signatures vs. account names when reviewing edit histories? NE Ent 10:43, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I never understood why editors' signatures can't always have the editor's name in it. Seems pretty simple and helpful to me. Drmies (talk) 14:49, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I daresay the user is rather young and doesn't realise how facetious and petty he is being. His technical contributions to VPT and other places have been useful to some degree, but aside from that, not much to smile about. His interactions at TFD, particularly this, have been very disappointing. — This, that and the other (talk) 10:19, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No, he's a grown man with children, if his user page is to be believed. During his time here T13 has been extremely combative towards other editors pointing out problems with his contributions, which have been numerous - e.g. creating useless or poorly-coded templates, recreating some after deletion, making apparent revenge nominations, as you link to. And then there's the whole issue of bizarre warring over signatures. I can't work out if his frequent attempts to force other users to change their signatures were revenge for what happened in the original argument over his signature, or, if upon being told of a rule, he instantly takes it upon himself to become the enforcer of that rule. And then this section here two days ago. This user should remain blocked unless he can provide a credible assurance that he is here to build an encyclopedia, which seems unlikely at present. — Hex    (❝  ?!  ❞)   10:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Good block. See also Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents NE Ent 10:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: that discussion has been archived, link in my comment above. — Hex   (❝  ?!  ❞)   10:54, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support block wholeheartedly. I've never met a more obnoxious hypocrite in my entire time editing Wikis. Telling me off about my signature when his is completely messed up...-- Laun  chba  ller  10:49, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My signature is not "messed up"; I cannot read yours. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:25, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I was talking about T13's signature. Mine's going to change soon anyway.-- Laun  chba  ller  14:24, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Good block I am easily irritated by nonsense that distracts from the encyclopedia, but that would be tolerable on the assumption that the user would mature and be of some net benefit, perhaps in a technical area (it is clear that it would be too much to hope for any useful content development). However, Technical 13 is simply incapable of understanding what many have tried to explain—he doesn't have to agree, just have the capacity to understand that if a person is pissing off that many editors, they need to try another approach. I don't want to spend more time by compiling a list of links, but there is plenty of evidence to show that this user not only wastes time by acting unhelpfully, but actively retaliates against unwelcome results (for example, by nominating things for deletion as in this TfD, which Technical 13 both opened and closed). Johnuniq (talk) 11:17, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunate but good block After the first wave of sig things, wherein I changed my own in response to his criticism, my interactions with Technical 13 have been relatively positive. Unfortunately, I'd come to the conclusion that a block like this was inevitable some time ago; it was just in want of a spark. He wants to participate in the more technical aspects of the site, but he doesn't seem to have hte knowledge to do so.  That in itself isn't a problem; the problem is that he apparently cannot admit when he's wrong.  In every situation I've seen him get involved in, he causes trouble by doubling down on his position, even going so far as to completely fabricate prior conversations involving editors with whom he's never actually interacted (and that thread in itself could very well be considered a personal attack, given the kind of words he's putting in Anomie's mouth) EDIT: see also my note below about an email I received from Technical 13 regarding this .  This total unwillingness to admit that he's wrong does not go well at all with editing technical areas without the requisite skills; it'd be okay if he listened to others and learned from his mistakes, but that seems to be the last thing he wants to do.  It's unfortunate, because his intentions are good, but this is probably necessary. Writ Keeper (t + c) 13:47, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Disappointing, but somewhat inevitable. T13 has already been here on ANI a couple of times, despite having made a sum total of 54 Article-space edits…  If anyone thinks the T13's User talkpage to be a little empty; the content leading to the various warnings is at User talk:Technical 13/2013 (in the matrix of redirects hitherto alluded too).  T13 reminds me in several ways of the (currently blocked) no.2 editcount here on enwiki: massive potential and technical skill, outshone by a strong desire to argue for the sake of it and an unwillingness to accept the views of others (even if there are a dozen editors reporting the same problem of breakage).  The time spent by other editors in laborious conversation does not, at this moment, appear to give Wikipedia a net-gain.  –Sladen (talk) 13:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Based on the content of his two unblock appeals this afternoon, good block. Any user who manages to cause this much drama in less than 1,500 edits is clearly not a net positive. Speaking of which, given that there's pretty clear community support for John's actions perhaps this thread can be closed now? Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  13:56, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I have to endorse John's block. Technical 13's been given quite a few chances to change course (including yesterday's AN/I, in which I was very close to blocking him for apparent trolling) but it appears he is not yet willing to do so. If he eventually is willing to do so... great, we can unblock; but judging from the unblock requests so far that doesn't look like it's going to happen soon. 28bytes (talk) 14:18, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: Technical 13 has contacted me via email, saying that he mistook one of Isarra's comments for Anomie's in the thread I linked in my reply above, and wishes to apologize to Anomie for making it. A good sign, I'd say. I do have to caveat it, though: Isarra's actual comment wasn't close to the kind of tone Technical 13 remembered, which wasn't directly acknowledged in the email. Writ Keeper (t + c) 14:26, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

3RR and addition of unofficial language
making a mass reversion and addition of unofficial language into the article page. Example, addition of Chinese language into the infobox of 1998 Commonwealth Games, which is not an official title of the event and yet is not an official local language. Other additions were added without the admission of local authority. All this only subject to the translation of newspaper. --Aleen f 1 11:42, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Have you tried discussing the issue with the user? From looking at Special:Contributions/Lpjfytnlkq, it looks like this is going on in a lot of different places.  Talking with the user on their talk page may yield a useful result. --B (talk) 12:17, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think discussion will yield any useful result, as edit summary already state it. Plus, 3RR not limited to just one article, it is a mass reversion there without any reason. --Aleen f 1 12:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that most of these articles should probably not have the Chinese translation of their title added to the infobox, but 3RR is technically only violated when a user reverts the same material on the same page more than 3 times in a single day. I don't see any evidence that that has happened.  I also think you should discuss the issue with the user, point out any relevant policies, and then revert his additions again.  ‑Scottywong | squeal _  14:35, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "I don't think discussion will yield any useful result" simply means you haven't tried it yet, and you haven't. Edit summaries are good, but they cannot substitute for talk page discussion if this is to be settled, and such discussion should precede opening an ANI thread, which I propose should be closed. Drmies (talk) 17:32, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

User:Official Lists
Can someone block this repeat offender please? They've been adding gobs of self-serving unreferenced material to House of Frankopan and made a legal threat against me previously; as soon as someone unblocked them when they apparently withdrew it, their tirade at the article continued unabated. They've never, to my knowledge, engaged in anything resembling the normal editorial process, and my patience is thoroughly exhausted. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 09:03, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * You haven't notified the user of this discussion. Also I don't see any evidence of any attempt to engage the user in conversation, there's nothing on the article talk page or on the user's talk page. Canterbury Tail   talk  12:31, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, notified now.
 * They've been the topic of conversation at Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive779 (of which they were notified) and their problematic behavior is extensively documented at Talk:House of Frankopan - another user actually mentioned them by name over there back in September 2012. I'm not sure how we can engage someone in conversation when they're edit warring for months and making legal threats. Per WP:BRD, the onus is on them to engage in conversation - it's their bold edits that have been reverted. Over and over again. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 13:10, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It occurs to me that I omitted one thing - they've never really responded to the queries of anyone who complained; there's just a flurry of assorted assumptions of bad faith, "libellous information and reports by gossip", "personal problems", "a slur", "lies and insults, based on some personal grudge". They've utterly failed at WP:AGF ages ago, we'd be silly to keep assuming the same of them. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 15:40, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Did Canterbury Tail even read your original post? It clearly states that the troublesome user had made a legal threat against you in the past. That tells me this has been an ongoing problem that has been discussed in the past, which kind of makes the "attempts to engage the user in conversation" statement invalid, particularly if they've been threatening you. I would be a very happy person if people here would stop obsessing over silly trifles and take the time to read and think about posts before brusquely replying with "you didn't notify" or "it doesn't look like you tried to talk to them", or some other perceived procedural oversight. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy so let's all quit treating it like one? Please? - Who is John Galt? ✉ 17:01, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes I did read it. The user was blocked indefinitely before, and then unblocked when they agreed to retract the threat which they did. Since the block was lifted the user has made no threats, and in fact has made no edits other than their edits to the articles. Since the unblock happened there has been no discussions on the pages in question that the edit wars are about (it is an editing dispute at this point) and no attempt to engage the editor since that time on why their edits may be considered unacceptable. The article edits since the unblock have absolutely nothing to do with the threats made before the original block and also nothing to do with the block (blocked for legal threats) and shouldn't be considered as such if you check the user in question's edit history. The only interaction from anyone to this user since their unblock has been teh reverting of their edits with zero explanation, not even a comment in an edit summary as to why the edits are unacceptable (sorry there was a single comments in a revert consisting of "rv Official Lists whitewashing and puffery yet again". So yes attempts need to be made to engage this user now and don't appear to be being made. If the user is to be considered for a block again then some kind of interaction is necessary for good faith, and to prove they are being uncooperative. Just saying they made threats in the past and are now editing again after their block was isn't sufficient to issue a block. Canterbury Tail   talk  19:06, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Er, how can you possibly say that their edits have "absolutely nothing to do with the threats" when they're a repetition of the exact same pattern of editing and the exact same content dispute? And by "content dispute" I really just mean their egregious POV pushing that they have consistently engaged in for months or years now, never actually discussing their problematic changes on the article Talk page. What possible additional proof that they are being uncooperative do we need other than their consistent lack of cooperation? --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 22:44, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

In the latest round, they wrote:


 * This entry has (again!) been corrected as there are some factual errors. For example, a certain Ivan Mirnik is supposed to have 'confronted' Ingrid Frankopan although I hear from her she has never met Mirnik. Lpuis Frankopan was not 'ejected' from any org

So Ingrid Frankopan is someone they "hear from" - apparently the issue is WP:COI. How many more policies does this person have to violate before they're blocked? --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 09:24, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the latest batch of edits I've rolled back - they should be self-explanatory, but just in case I'll explain: the removal of references to the dispute about the status of this modern-day family as descendents of the Frankopans is egregiously biased. The cited article is a secondary source of much greater weight than the self-published geneaology web sites; it was published by the Croatian daily Jutarnji list, which is a reliable source when reporting about mainstream Croatian affairs. If Jutarnji list says there's an issue with X in Croatia, there's no doubt whatsoever that there's an issue with X in Croatia. We can haggle about the details, but removing the entire notion is blatant censorship/whitewashing. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 09:28, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not denying that there is an editing issue with their edits, the point I'm trying to make is this hasn't gone through the paces to require administrative action at this point. You say their edits are COI, yet I see nothing on their talk page trying to explain that to them. There is no engagement on the users edits on their talk page whatsoever. No COI explanations, no reliable source clarifications just the odd boilerplate warning. So try and engage the user, explain to them on their talk why their edits don't work. If they continue a pattern of I'm Not Listening at a later point then maybe administrator action will be required then, but not now.
 * I also note that no other administrators are willing to get involved in this conversation, and while I can't speak for their motivations there must be a reason. I just don't see anything for an administrator to get involved with at this point and with the lack of engagement no one wants to spend their time going through all the user in question's edits to figure out what is happening.
 * So my advice is to engage them on their talk page and not to continue what is an edit war. If the user is uncooperative and you've tried the traditional means of interacting with them, then come back with diffs indicating the problematic behaviour and someone will undoubtedly take steps. Canterbury Tail   talk  11:54, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but the entire "contribution" of this user already screams "I'm Not Listening". Please do read Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive779 that I've linked above, where no less than three other admins expressed grave concerns about them. They haven't really interacted with anyone, those few messages left at User:FactStraight's talk page weren't communication so much as violation of WP:AGF - I've already linked to them and quoted them. Those links are to diffs that demonstrate their problematic behaviour. The link to Talk:House of Frankopan demonstrates their problematic behaviour - they're not talking about their edits despite the fact other users complained extensively about it. The history of the House of Frankopan article shows you their edit summaries:
 * The accurate version can be substantiated by documents, Please leave this now. - WP:V, WP:OWN violations
 * For example, a certain Ivan Mirnik is supposed to have 'confronted' Ingrid Frankopan although I hear from her she has never met Mirnik. - misreading of referenced material, WP:COI
 * Lpuis Frankopan was not 'ejected' from any org - WP:V violation
 * Legal action is being taken against the person who edited this section on 16 Dec 2012 as the changes are untrue or defamatory. - WP:LEGAL violation for which they've been blocked
 * The only other edit summary they left (most of the time they left none) was
 * Undid revision 511733043 by AnomieBOT (talk)
 * So while edit-warring with everyone else, they've also edit-warred with a bot. *facepalm*


 * Trying to engage this user in discussion is like trying to tilt windmills here - they've reverted FactStraight in September 2012 and they're now reverting me, but nothing's really changed - they're still adding the same set of fringe theories to an article. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 15:24, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Legal threat against WMF by 50.53.149.122
has [ issued] a legal threat against WMF on my talk page. Can a sysop look into this as soon as possible? — DragonLord ( talk / contribs ) 16:58, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Frontier Communications is shown as the NetName in the WHOIS. Dunno if this'll help but it's just there in case it does. MIVP - (Can I Help?) (Maybe a bit of tea for thought?) 17:02, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That's just the ISP. Frontier's customer is the individual or company making the threat. GabrielF (talk) 17:20, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

E-Mailing WMF Legal as we speak. MIVP - (Can I Help?) (Maybe a bit of tea for thought?) 17:12, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have a bad feeling we're going to need an Office action on Breyer State University... — DragonLord ( talk / contribs ) 17:28, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If anyone has contact with this user, just ask them to email legal-at-wikimedia.org. That's the correct way to handle things like these. § FreeRangeFrog croak 17:45, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

i already E-Mailed Legal with regards to the threat pointing them to Dragon's user page and this ANI thread. MIVP - (Can I Help?) (Maybe a bit of tea for thought?) 17:50, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree they need to be notified, but I think it's an idle threat. First, the message claims to come for a representive of the accrediting agency, but seems from the other wording to be representing the interests of the university. What's more, it admits the university is "in process of acquiring accreditation", which means that it is still unaccredited, just as the article says. It further claims the original article was written by ceo's of competing organization--i.e., other for-profit distance education colleges. However, almost all the content here has been contributed by   well-known wp editors editing a variety of topics ; the original one-line article saying nothing about its accreditation status was contrib by an i.p. in the days when that was possible; all possibly negative information has seen repeated attempts at removal  first by an editor named "Bsuinfosys" until they were blocked, and then by a variety of ip addresses.  Pending any further office action, I'm full-protecting for 3 days.  DGG ( talk ) 18:07, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree about the seriousness of the threat, and thus the point of having them contact Legal directly. That's what separates the wheat from the chaff. If they're not going to send formal notice, then there's nothing to worry about here beyond the routine "omg lawsuit" screed that can be dealt with in the usual manner. § FreeRangeFrog croak 19:28, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Can an administrator extend the block on in light of the legal threat and use the {{subst:Uw-lblock}} template?  — DragonLord ( talk / contribs ) 19:32, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The history of the article is littered with sockpupptery and attempts at astroturfing/whitewashing . - Who is John Galt? ✉ 14:46, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * SPI filed . Also, I noticed that one of the SAP socks was blocked in 2008 also for legal threats. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 15:14, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry
This needs to be looked into. It it is not reasonable to expect a seven-day wait for action against a duck sock. Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 03:15, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I recommend you phone up the SPI Clerk Office and tell them to drop real-life right away and hurry up clicking buttons to prevent some person from committing impardonable acts of stupidity, because clearly Wikipedia is deserted and nobody is on hand to revert them. :) · Salvidrim!  ·  &#9993;  03:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Sockpuppeteers are my pet peeve. I wish that there were more admins looking into the SPI backlog. Condolences... Binksternet (talk) 03:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We're very backlogged right now, which is why things are taking so long. But if any admins are interested in becoming SPI clerks, we could always use a few more. --Rschen7754 03:49, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you meshoggene? I saw the Malleus report: that shit is complicated, and I'm sure nobody wants people like me to have even more power over matters they barely understand. Can't we just put Elockid on payroll? I read somewhere (well, on Wikipedia...) that the WMF pulled in $42 million; surely we can pay a couple of geeks who can't get a date anyway to do nothing but this--it beats tech support or stocking shelves at Publix. Drmies (talk) 04:13, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * LOL, I don't need all of that $42M, just maybe an 80th of it, and I'll go careening through SPI until there are no socks left to darn. Binksternet (talk) 04:26, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The thing is, this isn't the sort of case that should take more than primary school reading ability and a block button to deal with. It doesn't need a CU or an extended investigation of any kind. All an admin needs to do is read through the page, skim through the archives, and it'll be done with a single click. If that's too much to ask, just sysop me for twenty seconds and I'll do it. Heh. :) Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 04:32, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Binksternet (talk) 04:41, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd like to respond something witty again but you've helped me realize my lack of primary school writing ability, and thus eigwanlfd G prtgsghw. :) · Salvidrim!  ·  &#9993;  05:47, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't say you lacked primary school reading ability; I'm sure that's something that most of our admins possess. Whether it's a lack of free time, motivation, or a simple desire to let someone else deal with it that results in it taking this long, I don't know. But I strongly feel that after a week, someone should take the initiative. Or make me an admin so I can. :) Someguy1221 was kind enough to self-endorse a CU request, so I hope to see the back of this shortly. Evanh2008 (talk&#124;contribs) 11:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I know its a perennial proposal that never gains any traction, but if it were possible -- even temporarily -- to be granted only the minimum admin powers needed to clear a non-checkuser SPI (possibly with an edit restriction to forbid any non-SPI use?) there are users like me who would be willing to pitch in and clear the backlog. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:09, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I suppose that's included in the "unbundling" option over at the reality-warpingly huge RfA RfC. :) · Salvidrim!  ·  &#9993;  05:47, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion - fire up IRC. Almost always an admin willing to do you a solid on there. @dmries, it's "mashugana"  little green rosetta $central scrutinizer (talk)$ 04:49, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, the adjective is "meshugge" (spelling according to Leo Rosten's The Joys of Yiddish). "Meshuggener" (male) or "meshuggeneh" (female) are the nouns. So either "Are you meshugge?" or "What, are you a meshuggener?" would work.  Alternately, "mishegoss" is good too.  "I saw the Malleus report: it was mishegoss!" Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:10, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, "meshugge", as in the scene from Blazing Saddles featuring a Yiddish-speaking Native American. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:57, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That's what I was trying to cite from memory, Bugs. I hear now that I got it wrong. Drmies (talk) 14:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Think that's bad? This was last edited on the 19th of March, by me, and that was solely to tidy things up. It was last touched by an admin/CU on the 16th of March. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 18:16, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Technical 13
likes to mess with signatures and to argue about what is and isn't allowed in them. He doesn't edit articles much, preferring to focus on his user space. He came to my attention here, a month ago. At that time I warned him to get rid of the blinking character in his signature. He did this. I then noticed further signature-related shenanigans and gave him this final warning. When he continued, I blocked his account indefinitely. It seems clear he is not here to work on the project, and that his editing style is extremely demanding on other editors' time. What do others think? --John (talk) 09:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My first and only meeting with this editor was his instruction on my talk page to fix my signature, an instruction I refused. His approach was then to open a DRN incident about this (obviously wrong forum, but disruptive and annoying). I find him to be abrasive and exhibiting defensive hostility. The incident caused me to lose and good faith I might have had, and to view him as an agent of disruption. His talk page is impenetrable, with redirects hither and yon, and appears to be a 'look at me' billboard of complexity. His signature is patronising, and I find him appearing all over the place despite my having no intention of ever interacting with him. He takes up too much space in his current incarnation.
 * Bring him into the fold and we may have a valuable editor. As it is I find his attitude not to be collegiate. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 09:58, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, your signature is annoying per Signatures. Why the heck should editors have to maintain a mental map of signatures vs. account names when reviewing edit histories? NE Ent 10:43, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I never understood why editors' signatures can't always have the editor's name in it. Seems pretty simple and helpful to me. Drmies (talk) 14:49, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I daresay the user is rather young and doesn't realise how facetious and petty he is being. His technical contributions to VPT and other places have been useful to some degree, but aside from that, not much to smile about. His interactions at TFD, particularly this, have been very disappointing. — This, that and the other (talk) 10:19, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No, he's a grown man with children, if his user page is to be believed. During his time here T13 has been extremely combative towards other editors pointing out problems with his contributions, which have been numerous - e.g. creating useless or poorly-coded templates, recreating some after deletion, making apparent revenge nominations, as you link to. And then there's the whole issue of bizarre warring over signatures. I can't work out if his frequent attempts to force other users to change their signatures were revenge for what happened in the original argument over his signature, or, if upon being told of a rule, he instantly takes it upon himself to become the enforcer of that rule. And then this section here two days ago. This user should remain blocked unless he can provide a credible assurance that he is here to build an encyclopedia, which seems unlikely at present. — Hex    (❝  ?!  ❞)   10:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Good block. See also Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents NE Ent 10:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: that discussion has been archived, link in my comment above. — Hex   (❝  ?!  ❞)   10:54, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support block wholeheartedly. I've never met a more obnoxious hypocrite in my entire time editing Wikis. Telling me off about my signature when his is completely messed up...-- Laun  chba  ller  10:49, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My signature is not "messed up"; I cannot read yours. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:25, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I was talking about T13's signature. Mine's going to change soon anyway.-- Laun  chba  ller  14:24, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Good block I am easily irritated by nonsense that distracts from the encyclopedia, but that would be tolerable on the assumption that the user would mature and be of some net benefit, perhaps in a technical area (it is clear that it would be too much to hope for any useful content development). However, Technical 13 is simply incapable of understanding what many have tried to explain—he doesn't have to agree, just have the capacity to understand that if a person is pissing off that many editors, they need to try another approach. I don't want to spend more time by compiling a list of links, but there is plenty of evidence to show that this user not only wastes time by acting unhelpfully, but actively retaliates against unwelcome results (for example, by nominating things for deletion as in this TfD, which Technical 13 both opened and closed). Johnuniq (talk) 11:17, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunate but good block After the first wave of sig things, wherein I changed my own in response to his criticism, my interactions with Technical 13 have been relatively positive. Unfortunately, I'd come to the conclusion that a block like this was inevitable some time ago; it was just in want of a spark. He wants to participate in the more technical aspects of the site, but he doesn't seem to have hte knowledge to do so.  That in itself isn't a problem; the problem is that he apparently cannot admit when he's wrong.  In every situation I've seen him get involved in, he causes trouble by doubling down on his position, even going so far as to completely fabricate prior conversations involving editors with whom he's never actually interacted (and that thread in itself could very well be considered a personal attack, given the kind of words he's putting in Anomie's mouth) EDIT: see also my note below about an email I received from Technical 13 regarding this .  This total unwillingness to admit that he's wrong does not go well at all with editing technical areas without the requisite skills; it'd be okay if he listened to others and learned from his mistakes, but that seems to be the last thing he wants to do.  It's unfortunate, because his intentions are good, but this is probably necessary. Writ Keeper (t + c) 13:47, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Disappointing, but somewhat inevitable. T13 has already been here on ANI a couple of times, despite having made a sum total of 54 Article-space edits…  If anyone thinks the T13's User talkpage to be a little empty; the content leading to the various warnings is at User talk:Technical 13/2013 (in the matrix of redirects hitherto alluded too).  T13 reminds me in several ways of the (currently blocked) no.2 editcount here on enwiki: massive potential and technical skill, outshone by a strong desire to argue for the sake of it and an unwillingness to accept the views of others (even if there are a dozen editors reporting the same problem of breakage).  The time spent by other editors in laborious conversation does not, at this moment, appear to give Wikipedia a net-gain.  –Sladen (talk) 13:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Based on the content of his two unblock appeals this afternoon, good block. Any user who manages to cause this much drama in less than 1,500 edits is clearly not a net positive. Speaking of which, given that there's pretty clear community support for John's actions perhaps this thread can be closed now? Yunshui 雲 &zwj; 水  13:56, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I have to endorse John's block. Technical 13's been given quite a few chances to change course (including yesterday's AN/I, in which I was very close to blocking him for apparent trolling) but it appears he is not yet willing to do so. If he eventually is willing to do so... great, we can unblock; but judging from the unblock requests so far that doesn't look like it's going to happen soon. 28bytes (talk) 14:18, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: Technical 13 has contacted me via email, saying that he mistook one of Isarra's comments for Anomie's in the thread I linked in my reply above, and wishes to apologize to Anomie for making it. A good sign, I'd say. I do have to caveat it, though: Isarra's actual comment wasn't close to the kind of tone Technical 13 remembered, which wasn't directly acknowledged in the email. Writ Keeper (t + c) 14:26, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

3RR and addition of unofficial language
making a mass reversion and addition of unofficial language into the article page. Example, addition of Chinese language into the infobox of 1998 Commonwealth Games, which is not an official title of the event and yet is not an official local language. Other additions were added without the admission of local authority. All this only subject to the translation of newspaper. --Aleen f 1 11:42, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Have you tried discussing the issue with the user? From looking at Special:Contributions/Lpjfytnlkq, it looks like this is going on in a lot of different places.  Talking with the user on their talk page may yield a useful result. --B (talk) 12:17, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think discussion will yield any useful result, as edit summary already state it. Plus, 3RR not limited to just one article, it is a mass reversion there without any reason. --Aleen f 1 12:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that most of these articles should probably not have the Chinese translation of their title added to the infobox, but 3RR is technically only violated when a user reverts the same material on the same page more than 3 times in a single day. I don't see any evidence that that has happened.  I also think you should discuss the issue with the user, point out any relevant policies, and then revert his additions again.  <span style="font:small-caps 1.2em Garamond,Times,serif;color:#442244;letter-spacing:0.2em;">‑Scottywong <span style="font:0.75em Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;color:#444444;">| squeal _  14:35, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "I don't think discussion will yield any useful result" simply means you haven't tried it yet, and you haven't. Edit summaries are good, but they cannot substitute for talk page discussion if this is to be settled, and such discussion should precede opening an ANI thread, which I propose should be closed. Drmies (talk) 17:32, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

User:24.57.110.189
Not sure what to do with an editor that simply wont reply to any concerns raised by anyone. Many of us have tried to engage this editor to no avail. The editor has many minor problems with there addition that adds up to a huge amount of cleanup by many editors (User talk:24.57.110.189). We cant seem to get this editors attention even with a block - what to do next - ban? block till they communicate? pls help.Moxy (talk) 23:33, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow. Zero edits to talkspace (apart from one misplaced WP: AFC). I think it's obvious that this user is WP: NOTHERE, due to the massive cleanup required on pages he has disrupted, such as List of Serbs, as well as a large, poorly formatted and badly sourced AFC. I would suggest a block, as bans are not applicable to IP editors. This looks like WP: ARBMAC territory, though. Alles Klar, Herr Kommisar  00:20, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've blocked for two weeks per WP: ARBMAC, but somehow I've got my doubts that this is going to work. De728631 (talk) 15:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The first edit at this IP, on 7 January 2013, looks like it was the same person, so I'd say there's a good chance they'll be back at the same IP in two weeks time; either way I support an instant re-block on the first hint of repeated trouble. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 21:23, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Is this a legal threat?
I know this user (Glemmens1940) from interaction at the Dutch WP and now we are clashing here too. Today, after a bit of edit warring about the article that he wrote about his father, I decided to AfD it. His reply was this. At first, I just read is as a personal attack. At a second read (when replying) I noticed ''What he does not realize is that Cyber Bullying is an offence in the U.K.! I think Scotland yard should be informed as Wikipedia English speaking page is in danger at present ?'' Is that a legal threat or is it that I am overly itchy for mr. Lemmens. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 10:33, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * (non admin) It's hyperbole. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:22, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * (admin) Agreed. And I will add, if you "know each other" from the Dutch Wikipedia and are coming here to battle, it's probably not going to end well for either of you. AfDing an article about the guy's father is getting pretty personal.  If you've had previous conflict with this guy, it would be wise to avoid it here.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:02, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * FYI: Articles for deletion/Adrianus Johannes Lemmens. There are serious issues with that article. And I don't shy away when somebody gets aggressive, but I try to restrict my own hothead and stay polite and to the point. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 12:14, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't question that. But you should probably not have been the one to AfD it.  And looking at your interventions on his talk page, I can see where he's coming from.  Stay away from each other, please.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:30, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd disagree Wehwalt. This kind of logic leads to gaming.  "Well he can't nom my articles, I don't like him."  It is what it is.  Let the AFD run and indef Glemmens1940 if there are any other significant issues.  Personally, I'd block for that, but the developing consensus is that it's hyperbole.--v/r - TP 12:37, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Indef him? So casually as that?  Really.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:45, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Clemmens1940 accused TheBanner of a crime and threatened to call the police. Cut and dry legal threat.  How many "Well this is libel and I'm calling my lawyer"s have we blocked?  This line comes to play on WP:NLT: "It severely inhibits free editing of pages, a concept that is absolutely necessary to ensure that Wikipedia remains neutral."  Your own comments "But you should probably not have been the one to AfD it" shows that free editing is inhibited.  It's not a casual indef, it's a very serious indef.--v/r - TP 13:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you misunderstand my point. The Banner admitted to edit warring.  He then came here, after leaving ill-advised warning notices on the talk page of another editor he was in conflict with across two wikipedias, to try to get action taken against that editor.  The AfD (which seems to be failing) was ill-advised simply because him doing it was unlikely to lower tension levels.  Had he asked for the advice of an uninvolved, neutral admin before doing it (preferably letting the admin file the AfD), I'd have no quarrel.  You are seizing on one aspect of the conflict and ignoring all else.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:16, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Your read is completely different then mine. I see 3 reverts on Adrianus_Johannes_Lemmens to restore maintenance tags which is short of the bright line.  Editors shouldn't be removing COI tags (although he used the wrong template) when they have a COI.  The warnings were not ill-advised, they were appropriate.  The AFD has two keep !votes from two significant contributors and one uninvolved editor while 4 other uninvolved editors comments suggest to delete (plus the nom makes 5).  Emeraude's comment seems to have influenced others and that influence suggests the AFD leans delete despite a !vote count (which is still 4-3 in favor of delete).  You seem to think that conflict requires editors to avoid each other.  I don't.--v/r - TP 13:33, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I did three reverts to restore the maintenance templates, that is true. Robotje did the same twice. Removal of the templates was done by an IP (once), Glemmens1940 (twice) and Menke66 (twice). Five times up and five times down. That is in my opinion an editwar, although nobody went over the limit. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 13:39, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * It's not quite the same as "Well this is libel and I'm calling my lawyer" since he didn't explicit say he would. I would suggest someone warn him about making what could be inferred to be a legal threat. He is apparently not aware himself: "I have pointed out that Cyber Bullying is an offence in the U.K. which you do not seem to be aware off? Your actions on this web site could be detrimental to Wikipedia Eng., i think or am I not allowed by you to point this out ??? I have not threatened you directly in my opinion." People filling his page with automatic text doesn't really help. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:47, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think "I think Scotland yard should be informed" is a threat.--v/r - TP 14:14, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * For those unfamiliar with the UK, Scotland Yard is the headquarters of the Metropolitan Police in London. In simple terms, the threat was implied to be "I'm going to call the police unless this page changes." And yup, that's a pretty clear threat. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 15:02, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * By now it is seriously escalating, as I got the same threat by private e-mail (not the mail-address connected to my account). It isn't that hard to find my name and website, but it is not funny. But as far as I know, that is out of the reach of Wikipedia. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 18:41, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. Editors have been indeffed for less obvious legal threats than this one. And this one was very obvious, in fact it was spelled out straight. --Saddhiyama (talk) 17:40, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree, it is a legal threat. It should be retracted or there should be a block. Whether theBanner was also acting badly is a separate quesion.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:47, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. There was a legal threat, and I will also add that the threat was intentional. My name is Mercy11 (talk) 17:58, 2 April 2013 (UTC), and I approve this message.
 * I don't think it is a legal threat. Threatening to phone the cops is not the same thing as threatening to phone your lawyer. -- Dianna (talk) 18:46, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, yes it is. Both imply legal action.--v/r - TP 18:53, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think threatening to call the cops is worse than threatening to call your lawyer and should be dealt with more swiftly and harshly. Ryan Vesey 18:57, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. There is no way that collegial editing is possible while that threat remains. Sperril (talk) 20:03, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * (non admin) I don't believe this is a legal threat just a hot headed reacting to something like wiki-hounding which we do not allow. I also think that Glemmens1940 is telling us all that the harassment is not acceptable by Wikipedia's standards and that this is not juast a wikipedia only rule, it is a real world legal rule, similar to say copyright. Another point to consider that if Wikihounding is illegal, it must be stop and letting TheBanner continue this will leave him exposed to legal action without a legal threat. While we do not condone legal threats we also cannot accept illegal behavior especially when it is forbidden by WP:Harassment.

That said, I went through a similar experience last month during the AfD the The Banner started on the article I foolishly wrote about my mother for soe Glam Projects so I have some insight to this matter. Nominating articles on family members is a sure way to provoke another user especially when you also insult and mutilate these articles in the process instead of letting the AfD go its course. Anyhow, ''in the spirit of good faith and to clear any bad blood between me and The Banner, I offer my services to broker a peaceful and neutral resolution to your conflict with Glemmens1940. If you promise to abide by my recommendations, avoid harassing Glemmens1940 and abide by the Wikipedia's code of civility I will broker a solution that will allow you to both enjoy editing here''. BO &#124; Talk 22:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I am willing to try it, but to be true, I don't believe in it. On NLWP, not even de ArbCom could persuade him to behave friendly and polite. But we can always try! <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 22:15, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * BTW, does it mean that Glemmens1940 would have to avoid harassing me on and off wikipedia, has to abide your recommendations and has to abide by the Wikipedia's code of civility? <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 22:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I am not interested in mediation by a sockpuppeteer, with a sock created to attack my work on Wikipedia. Especially, when you will try to use the mediation to keep me at bay and save an article. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 23:57, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I hope Glemmens1940 won't be annoyed to hear you broke our gentlemen's agreement after less then an hour ? It looks like you no longer consider this as a credible threat. I hope you are not trying to provoke him further ?
 * Think back about Talk:Aan_de_Poel we worked the issues out then just you me and Tony1. I was taugh but I was also fair ? I promise that it will be no worse than that discussion!
 * Again my good faith offer stands I will make the legal threats go away, end harassment and get you both to agree to abide by the code of civility. With just the three of us no ArbCom required and no drama, no lawyers and no police, just wiki-love all around? And as a bonus I will give you a tip on how to avoid a SPI yourself as part of my service. But this time I will have to ask you to commit to mediation at least until the AdD is over before all the admins here at ANI. BO &#124; Talk 01:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Your good faith stands? Really???] <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 10:38, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * It isn't harassment just because Glemmens1940 calls it so. As far as I can see, no Wikihouding or harassment has taken place by The Banner.  Glemmens1940 is alleging harassment to avoid scrutiny.  It's part of the pathetic attempt to have a chilling effect on The Banner.  No amount of brokerage is going to save that article and Glemmens seems to care more about his memorial than building an encyclopedia.--v/r - TP 22:20, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree with everything you say. But if they have been to ArbCom then there was a pretty big feud and it is time to end it. BO &#124; Talk 01:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * When two editors are in conflict, I wholeheartedly reject the idea that both share equal or even any responsibility. This is a case of an editor (Glemmens) who wants a memorial for his father and has lied about awards he has received to meet notability guidelines.  When confronted, he's restored to name calling and claims of harassment.  That's a cut and dry disruptive user and The Banner bears no obligation to take any responsibility for that.--v/r - TP 13:02, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I was not involved in the Dutch Arbcom-case at all.. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 13:17, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * User Oren Bochman (BO) is just out from a block for creating a sockpuppet whose intent was to start retaliatory AfDs and act against The Banner, see Sockpuppet investigations/OrenBochman/Archive. He was not able to solve his problems with The Banner in a civil way and he is now offering a not required service of mediator between The Banner and another editor? Seriously?? His offer cannot be taken seriously and it would be wise that he stay away from The Banner. Cavarrone (talk) 03:55, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Post-block rants/outing
Glemmens1940 has just come off a block relating to the above and seems to have decided to scorched-earth his talk page. He's now listing "Wikipedia bullies" (including me, though we have previously worked together on other articles - basically just everyone who has !voted delete at his father's article's AFD). It looks like he has outed at least one person there and at said AFD. Needs to be sorted urgently. Stalwart 111  14:14, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I've taken the liberty of removing any lists that he's made of Wikipedia "cyber bullies" — which are, frankly, little more than large-scale personal attacks. It's worth keeping an eye on User:Glemmens1940/sandbox, where he is repeating the same content. Worth speedy deleting, in my opinion. –  Richard  BB  14:32, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * He's also posted this on various editors' talk pages. Undoing it now and requesting an immediate indef for him and revdel of any outing. –  Richard  BB  14:36, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * TParis beat me to the block; I'll look at the revdels. Writ Keeper (t + c) 14:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry Writ. I'd have rather you did it since I already commented in the AFD and I didn't want to run afoul of involved, but I felt this was a no brainer and I didn't see any other sysops on it yet.--v/r - TP 14:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not an admin, but I'd say that you're right: it is a no-brainer. Good block. –  Richard  BB  14:54, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It hardly matters, TParis: outing is outing, a clear exception to WP:INVOLVED. If you feel the need, though, say three Hail Jimbos as your penance; I absolve you of your sins in the name of the Jimbo, the Arbcom, and the Holy Cabal.  (Also, I think I've revdeled everything and forwarded the mess to oversight; if anyone would like to double-check to make sure I got everything, I wouldn't take it amiss.) Writ Keeper (t + c) 14:59, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks Richard, TP, Writ, etc. Much appreciated. Always sad to see someone melt down like that (especially having worked with him on quite pleasant terms in the past). Stalwart 111  21:03, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Ehm, I have missed something? <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 20:02, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe? I revdeled a bunch of Glemmens1940's posts that mentioned a real person's name in connection with your user name, and the oversight team has oversighted them. Writ Keeper (t + c) 20:07, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And then you don't even know what kind of verbal vomit he had for me in a second insulting and threatening e-mail. This is the second Wikipedia where he has such a meltdown and got himself blocked indef. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 20:21, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

DDE/EVADE issues 109.154.157.211 (MFIreland)
Hi. I am not sure whether to raise under WP:DDE or WP:EVADE (WP:SPI), but IP user has been engaging in significantly disruptive and tendentious behaviour on a number of related articles. The editor has repeatedly added cite/fv tags to cited content, added uncited content, and made controversial edits without recourse to CON. The editor is doing this without responding to requests for engagement and CON on usertalk and article talk pages, is not using edit summaries, and (where edit sums are provided) is mislabelling changes as management of "vandalism". IP user is most likely linked to the account which was perma-banned some time ago for similar behaviour on the same articles, in the same way, and with the intent of including and maintaining the same (controversial) content. Several editors have attempted to engage with the user on user's talkpage and opened threads for discussion of the content on article talk pages, but to no avail. (Reversion and edit warring has continued on the same articles despite and after these requests). While the editor has made some positive contributions, has stayed (largely) outside the bounds of 3RR, the level of disruption is far beyond a reasonable WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT threshold and the situation probably needs some ANI input. Is an SPI request in order? Or management under DDE guidelines? Or 3RR? Some ANI input requested. Guliolopez (talk) 19:34, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If you believe there is evidence that this IP is someone who is evading their block, then present that evidence at an SPI. <span style="font:small-caps 1.2em Garamond,Times,serif;color:#442244;letter-spacing:0.2em;">‑Scottywong <span style="font:0.75em Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;color:#447744;">| babble _  21:51, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Delicious Carbuncle -- child pornography trafficking allegations
In a thread on Jimbo Wales' talk page today, accused a living person of "trafficking in child pornography". Another user removed the accusations as a BLP violation, and then DC reverted him multiple times to keep the allegations on the page. No evidence to support his claims about this individual is present on Jimbo's page. (DC maintains that evidence to support his claim is available on another website.) I believe that his claims about this person constitute a BLP violation and should be removed. Also, our page on Child Protection notes that "Reports of editors engaging in [inappropriate] conduct should be made to the Arbitration Committee for further action, and should not be the subject of community discussion", so making allegations against this individual on a highly trafficked page is inappropriate for that reason as well. So rather than continue to edit war at Jimbo's page, I've brought the issue here for some more perspective. Feel free to tell me if I'm overreacting. Thanks in advance, Mark Arsten (talk) 23:04, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Diff? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:06, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've been watching the palaver. DC seems to have been using Jimbo's page as a soapbox for articles on Wikipediocracy for a while. I'm surprised that Jimbo hasn't told them to go away yet but, yes, this instance certainly crosses the line of what is acceptable. - Sitush (talk) 23:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Another watcher and generally agree with Sitush. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:15, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd just like to point out that in the (redacted) blog post in question, I am quoting what the subject himself has said about these incidents. If we were discussing a Wikipedia article, this would not be a BLP issue. Just saying. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:22, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Every time you post a link to Wikipediocracy, I see a shovel throwing more dirt out of a hole. I never look at the links but the hole seems to be getting deeper. If your concerns are so vital then email ArbCom or Jimbo directly. - Sitush (talk) 23:24, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * DC, BLP requires high quality RS, do you have those citations? Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:30, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sitush, I have emailed ArbCom and Jimbo about my concerns. I notified ArbCom about my latest blog post some days ago. I didn't even get an acknowledgement that they were discussing it. ArbCom has been actively ducking this responsibility for some time now. I had hoped the new Arbs would turn things around, but I see no evidence that this will happen. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:38, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The relevant policy is quite clear, there's nothing there that says it's Ok to publicly air concerns about child protection issues if you don't have faith in Arbcom. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd strongly support removing the thread immediately from Jimbo's talk page. I already tried and various users have reverted me.  DC has already agreed to not post a link to the off-wiki article on the subject (see User talk:Worm That Turned), so I don't think any consequences are necessary (as they would be purely punitive rather than preventive).  But, the thread on Jimbo's talk page should go away, and any evidence to support the allegations should be sent privately through the proper channels for investigation and enforcement.  <span style="font:small-caps 1.2em Garamond,Times,serif;color:#442244;letter-spacing:0.2em;">‑Scottywong <span style="font:0.75em Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;color:#447744;">| speak _  23:11, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * At least three admins have participated in that discussion, not to mention a WMF representative. Just saying. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:12, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Simple Let Jimbo handle it. Anything lower than Arbcom is just going to be warred over and controversial.  Jimbo has all of the powers to deal with it.--v/r - TP 23:14, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, except there is not evidence there that Jimbo is available. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:17, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I would like to note that as soon as I saw the thread I tried to remove it and reported it to the oversight team, who earlier today informed me that they were discussing it. Since the thread keeps getting restored, I have removed the editor's name where it appeared as the editor self-identifies on Wikipedia.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 23:21, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * We (ArbCom) are aware of this, though our collective response has been somewhat delayed (it has been a holiday weekend for many of us). Delicious carbuncle, you were (it seems) aware of this back in 2010. Why you are demanding an instant response now in 2013 is not clear. Please stop posting on-wiki about this and contact us again by e-mail. Carcharoth (talk) 23:35, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Carcharoth, what am I supposed to email you about? I already sent you a link to the blog post some days ago. If you need more details, feel free to contact me. You have my email. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:52, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm going to try one more time. We are volunteers, like everyone else here. We don't jump at your beck and call. Yes, we got your e-mail. No, we don't always immediately acknowledge the e-mails, but we have been discussing this (among other things), including some relevant material from earlier discussions, and things are (slowly) moving to a conclusion. You don't need to be so impatient that you jump all over Wikipedia about this. An second e-mail saying that you wanted an acknowledgement would almost certainly have got a response (if a somewhat terse one). We can't just take action because you demand it, we have to deliberate and make sure we aren't being rushed into anything. What is certain is that you don't need to be able to edit Wikipedia to alert us or anyone else about these things. Carcharoth (talk) 01:03, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I guess the burning question here is why is this this being discussed on a website instead of the appropriate authorities being notified? I mean, if there is evidence, which judging from the very specific accusations I assume is the case? § FreeRangeFrog croak 23:37, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Note that both DC and TDA have reached 3 reverts. Both have been warned that if they continue further they are liable to be blocked. (DC said he's not edit warring, but that's his misunderstanding of the EW) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:40, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As I noted on my talk page, removing claims of this kind about an editor is not subject to the normal rules on reverting.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 23:47, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It is not your call to make, so kindly learn your place in the future. Many people watch Jimbo's talk page and if someone truly though the discussion needed to be obliterated, then it would have been oversighted long before now. Tarc (talk) 23:54, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, and as I noted on you talk page and above, there is no BLP issue since I am merely quoting the editor's own words about the incident in question. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Regardless of who's right here, I'd strongly advise against continuing to edit war. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:03, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Can some one explain why links to Wikipediocracy are been rev-deleted? It isn't on the blacklist despite the valiant efforts of Scottywong, and the current blog post is completely innocuous. What's the policy-based rationale for removing the link? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:50, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Very good. Try scrolling down a little on the main page. I still see the BLP issue in question. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:55, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It would help if you speak more plainly about what the problem is. Scrolling down a little more shows the intro to the previous blog entry in question, not the entire thing.  I guess BLP-violating material is 1 click away from that, is that the criteria being applied now?  How deep does such material have to be in order for one to link to the main URL of the website now?  Tarc (talk) 00:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm somewhat active on the BLP noticeboard and quite familiar with that policy. What is "the BLP issue"? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:12, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The doxing and association with child pornography is visible from the two-paragraph blurb. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:13, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Cause, being technical idiots, Wikipedians can't figure out how to suffix "Wikipediocracy" with the most widely used tld; therefore must have stupid revert wars over it. NE Ent 00:04, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Clarifying a few points. Delicious carbuncle is free to e-mail ArbCom as much as he wants (what he shouldn't have been doing is posting about this on-wiki). We will do our best to deal with such concerns, but due to the very nature of a committee with a large workload and a certain degree of inertia, we are almost always unable to respond rapidly. In this case, as I've said above, it seems that Delicious carbuncle had concerns as early as 2010. Why it took another three years to get to this point, I don't know. Though ArbCom have not been much better at handling such things. I've been looking through some old discussions, and a former arbitrator (who was an arbitrator at the time) raised similar concerns to those of Delicious carbuncle back in 2009 (citing a diff that dates from 2007). For some reason, things were not discussed properly back then. Once I'd pointed out this diff from 2007 (cited in the 2009 discussion), more attention has been paid to the issue. This reinforces the point several arbitrators have made in the past that ArbCom really shouldn't be dealing with this sort of thing. It needs to be reported to those with the resources to deal with it properly (i.e. the WMF or law enforcement). Carcharoth (talk) 01:43, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There didn't seem to be much of a time issue in dealing with me recently. Kevin (talk) 02:32, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not surprised that members of ArbCom are reluctant to have this thrust upon them as they will be unequipped to deal with the issue properly. If someone reports a problem on flickr it takes between 3-5 working days to get a response, sometimes longer. If the issue is something like child protection then the response is less than 24hrs never longer, and often less than 12hrs. That's not to say that action is always taken within that timeframe as it may need law enforcement to become involved, and evidence collected. But that isn't the case here. The WMF should come up to the plate and stop claiming that everything is not their problem. John lilburne (talk) 07:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It has been pointed out before that Arbcom is poor choice for dealing with such issues and WMF should be doing it. But it is also obvious that status quo won't change unless Arbcom actually forces issue. If privately WMF remains uncooperative then matter should be raised publicly with community. Considering WMF's personel and budget, they have no real excuse for leaving such issues on community's shoulders.--Staberinde (talk) 08:34, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: Block and ban User:Delicious carbuncle

 * The editor in question has disrupted Wikipedia for far too long and (it feels like s/he has) caused probably half the drama at ANI over the past few months. Jimbo's written that (redacted, per discussion elsewhere), DC has been edit warring in two places today alone. Coupled with the blatant off-Wiki personal attacks which DC proudly authors, it is high time we realise s/he is NOTHERE. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:57, 2 April 2013 (UTC) (edits on 11:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC))
 * Support as initiator. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As my most grievous cause for this proposal was groundless, I am redacting that issue completely and withdrawing my own support. I still strongly suggest that DC avoid multiple reverts except in clear cut cases of vandalism. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:49, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Site Ban Per the obvious reasons. Someone who uses WP: SOAPBOXING to promote an Anti-Wikipedian blog used to harbor personal attacks is someone who is not WP: HERE to build an encyclopedia. Alles Klar,  Herr Kommisar  00:13, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Jimbo is perfectly capable of deciding what constitutes SOAPBOXING and what constitutes raising serious and legitimate issues on his talk. If you really wanted to ban people for SOPABOXING on Jimbo's talk page, half the Wikipedia and certainly most of the ANI drama mongers would be banned by now. Cut the hypocrisy please. This is just a continuation of the anti-Wikipediocracy witch hunt by a small group of off-the-wall zealots, which has already failed in several other venues (i.e. another form of WP:FORUMSHOPPING. Wikipediocracy.com. Volunteer Marek 00:25, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per "it's an idiotic and petty proposal". Volunteer Marek 00:11, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Neutral - I'm concerned that DC decided to post a direct link (now revdeleted) to his blog post which contains a lot of personal information about an editor; information that was not previously divulged on-wiki (including accusations of distributing child pornography). Note that this is the exact same behavior that lead to Cla68 being indef blocked recently (and he remains blocked today). I'm not sure whether DC was trying to increase the viewership of WPO, or just promote the blog post he wrote, but whatever the reason for it, posting that link was unambiguously inappropriate.  So, on one hand, in the interest of being consistent, DC should be blocked.  On the other hand, DC has agreed to no longer post links to his blog post on-wiki (or any other similar articles), so at this point a block could be considered punitive.  So, I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, and at this point I could accept either result.  I'm unfamiliar with most of DC's editing history (recent or not), so if this is part of a larger pattern, that might be a reason to lean towards supporting a block.  <span style="font:small-caps 1.2em Garamond,Times,serif;color:#227722;letter-spacing:0.2em;">‑Scottywong <span style="font:0.75em Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;color:#227722;">| yak _  00:14, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That's obviously off-wiki WP: OUTING. Yet another reason to support a block. Alles Klar, Herr Kommisar  00:19, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's pretty absurd to post a link to a revdel in which the edit summary, viewable by mere peons like myself, contains sufficient identifying information to figure out exactly what DC was pointing. I'm not sure where this model of Wikipedians as mindless drones who can only find things by clicking on a &lt;a href="http://url.com/blahblah> url.com/blahblah &lt;a> came from, but it really needs to go. Common sense, anyone? NE Ent 00:23, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment - Jimbo has never written that I threatened his family. I have not done so and never would do so. You may be confusing me with someone else. I suggest that you also rethink your claim that I have "caused probably half the drama at ANI over the past few months". That is absolute nonsense, as ANI regulars will know. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:16, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose I think DC should stop engaging in this sort of public rabble-rousing and perhaps a restriction to that effect should be considered, but banning him from the site is not something I can support.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 00:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I think DC erred in publicising these allegations, but I think it was done with good intentions. As long as the links to the allegations are not repeated, I see no preventative need for any sanctions. Also, I think the claim that DC threatened Jimbo's family should be substantiated or withdrawn. The "half the drama at ANI" claim is, of course, nonsense. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:29, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose The only person who ought to be getting the boot here is . Darkness Shines (talk) 00:30, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Darkness Shines, although I agree with you in opposing these proposed sanctions, I really don't think you should be repeating the id of the accused editor -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 00:49, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Topic ban for all things Wikipediocracy, broadly construed, including the posting of URLs or mentioning of blogs or discussion. Outside of Wikipediocracy promotion, DC is not disruptive. Binksternet (talk) 00:38, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Question - what are people !voting on here? The topic is "block and ban" - are we !voting to block me or ban me? I'm not sure that everyone has the same understanding of what is being voted on. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:42, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Clearly, there's a problem here; almost nobody disputes this. For those !voting against block and/or banning this editor, can you please suggest another alternative that would solve the problem? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * To thank him for a job well done? --B (talk) 01:03, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not - this is one of the reasons that Wikipedia gets a bad wrap. If you cannot say unequivocally that child pornography, pedophilia, and child abuse are wrong, or, worse, if you are an advocate of any of the same, you have no business editing an encyclopedia.  I've read some of the quotes from the not-to-be-posted article on the not-to-be-posted website and that the reaction of Wikipedia is to ban the whistleblower speaks volumes.  This is not something where there are multiple legitimate points of view. --B (talk) 01:03, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you and I agree with your statement wholeheartedly. The entire issue should be sent to ArbCom as editors have stated below, hopefully an editor will be blocked and it won't be Delicious Carbuncle. Ryan Vesey 01:15, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We don't make value judgements on wikipedia. It is not up to us to declare starvation, depression, Hitler, etc, to be "bad". We just describe what things are in a neutral tone.OakRunner (talk) 04:22, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have zero desire to have any editors who feel that they cannot declare pedophilia and/or child pornography to be "bad". Ryan Vesey 04:25, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We do make value judgments on Wikipedia. It is up to us to declare things to be "bad".  We do not have to describe things in a neutral tone.  Now, we do have to describe things neutrally and not declare them as "bad" in articles about them, but this is about a user, not about an article.  WP:CHILDPROTECT pretty much establishes that deciding that pedophilia is bad is something Wikipedia needs to do. Ken Arromdee (talk) 09:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Hell no  little green rosetta $central scrutinizer (talk)$ 01:12, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Send to arbcom from WP:childprotect: "Reports of editors engaging in such conduct should be made to the Arbitration Committee for further action, and should not be the subject of community discussion, requests for comment or consensus.". I feel that this and his accusations should be sent to arbcom, as this appears to be an issue that is not subject to consensus. -- Aunva6talk - contribs 01:09, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No The OP includes "Jimbo's written that Carbuncle threatened his family" with no link and no explanation—it is absurd that such a statement can be "supported" with no evidence. The OP mentions "blatant off-Wiki personal attacks"—is there anything other than attempts to reveal CHILD violations? I suspect not, in which case, DC should be thanked and possibly given an alternative procedure to follow in the future. Arbcom is overwhelmed with work, and presumably gets lots of mail with a high noise-to-signal ratio, so it is understandable that emails about non-urgent issues (like non-urgent WP:CHILDPROTECT violations) do not get fast responses. DC should not edit war to get attention, but there should be some middle path between drama and inaction. Johnuniq (talk) 02:52, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No. You can argue that his methods could be improved, be DC is absolutely right to raise such concerns. Kevin (talk) 02:58, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, per Johnuniq and Kevin. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:04, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. An editor's off-wiki crimes, actual or alleged, are completely off-topic on this site.  Delicious carbuncle doesn't seem to understand that.  I don't care if an editor truly is a seditious, perfidious, serial-killing, baby-raping, animal-torturing, tax-evading, genocide-perpetrating jaywalker; if he's complying with our policies he should be allowed to edit here free of hounding and harassment.  DC is the one who is being disruptive by pursuing these allegations here instead of taking them to the relevant off-wiki authorities. —Psychonaut (talk) 07:42, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose ridiculous proposal. These are problems that need to be dealt with, no wikilawyered under carpet with banning of editors who raise them. Frankly this proposal is so bad that I would question Crisco 1492 competence for admin position.--Staberinde (talk) 08:22, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. DC obviously did this because of foot-dragging by Arbcom.  If he violated a policy in order to force Arbcom to take action against a pedophile, that should come under WP:IAR.  Furthermore, the accusation that DC threatened Jimbo's family is unsubstantiated (and itself being about a living person, really ought to be deleted). Ken Arromdee (talk) 09:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose block and/or ban: Per mareek. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:23, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * To Arbcom if anywhere per Aunva6. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Alternate proposal
My interactions with DC have been mixed. Since he got me blocked for a few hours four months ago, we've come to a state of peaceful coexistence – I doubt either of us forgets some of the things we've said against each other, but I've come to somewhat respect him as an editor, and I'd like to think that the feeling is mutual (though I'm not particularly offended if it isn't). However, the one issue on which I've found his conduct reprehensible has been his repeated accusations against other editors of pedophilia and related offenses. Every time he finds some way to weasel out of them, but that doesn't change the fact that WP:CHILDPROTECT is very much a bright-line policy when it comes to on-wiki accusations, and while he's always open about the fact that he's making these accusations (even acknowledging on his blog at one point that he expected to be blocked for it), he's never been able to concede that there's an issue with his doing this. Instead, as noted, he obfuscates any attempt to minimize the visibility of his actions, showing not just refusal to comply with policy but refusal to listen when being told he's violating policy.

So, I propose the following:"is indefinitely prohibited from making any edits invoking or referencing WP:CHILDPROTECT in respect to any editor, broadly construed, or from making any edits that could reasonably be seen as accusations of pedophilia, child molestation, or similar conditions or offenses. If he makes any off-wiki claims that would violate these terms, he may not acknowledge the claims on-wiki, link to them, or direct users to any off-wiki locale where they would have a reasonable chace of finding the claims." — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  00:50, 3 April 2013 (UTC) minor clarification at 01:33, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Dude. WP:NOTCENSORED - this time in the way it's supposed to be used. Volunteer Marek 01:00, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. This formulation would seem to offer tacit protection in respect of off-wiki harassment. Is that the intention? Formerip (talk) 00:59, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, the community has been historically unwilling to restrict editors from specific off-wiki actions. It'd be unenforceable anyways... we can't monitor every site on the Internet, and he'd be able to make accusations from alternate accounts on other websites. — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  01:07, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You might be right about unenforceable, but policy is that "off-wiki harassment can be grounds for blocking, and in extreme cases, banning". A remedy which seems - tacitly, like I say - to provide the editor with an exemption from that doesn't seem quite right. Either that or the policy is wrong. Formerip (talk) 01:11, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course, as Mark rightly notes below, his behavior isn't necessarily harrassment. If I recall correctly, the last editor he pulled this with was ultimately indefblocked with the type of formulaic summary that is traditional for CHILDPROTECT blocks. (No, I will not be linking to anything involving that, and anyone who does should be trouted and possibly blocked.)  — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  01:24, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, the first such case I wrote about ended up blocked after my second blog post about them. Although more than one editor contacted ArbCom, the block was issued by someone else. The second editor that I profiled in early February is still editing here. Again, ArbCom is aware of that case. The case at hand is the third such case. So, three editors profiled, one blocked, but no ArbCom action (and, to be fair, no WMF action either). Delicious carbuncle (talk) 01:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see where anyone has denied that it is harassment. The only question is whether there is such a thing as good harassment. Formerip (talk) 01:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, "off-wiki" means a few things. An e-mail to ArbCom is technically off-wiki, according to the general definition... and seeing as that's what policy requires, it'd be hard to say that that is harassment. — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  01:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're correct about that. I don't imagine anyone would think that's against policy. What I'm suggesting is that its problematic to have a remedy that arguably grants an exemption from policy. Formerip (talk) 01:54, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * DC, considering one of the earlier editors you profiled in your crusade against pornography quit soon after because he felt your doxing was too much (private communications, no links), after writing several articles on notable early pornographic films, I feel your approach may cause too much collatoral damage. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:09, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Restricting DC from making this type of allegation on-wiki, though he should be free to e-mail Arbcom/Jimbo/Oversight etc. when he comes upon issues. To clarify, I support any efforts to protect children who edit Wikipedia and to block users who may reasonably be a threat. My concern here is not that DC is making allegations (if he has success finding legitimate child protection issues, more power to him), and I'm not necessarily saying that the substance of the allegations are wrong (haven't done the research myself), but I'm worried about how he is going about things (making announcements in high-traffic public forums). This is clearly against existing policy, for a good reason. The last thing we want is for sensational accusations against editors to be made publicly, since there's a chance that innocent users may be wrongfully accused. Not saying DC has made false accusations (again, I don't know), but we shouldn't foster a culture here where people run to high-traffic pages when they have sensitive concerns against other editors. I understand that Arbocm is slow and frustrating to deal with at times, but bringing things like this into the open (at least on-wiki) could lead to serious issues if we make it a common practice. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:12, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. I was struggling to think how to express my thoughts - then Mark Arsten said it better than I could -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 01:17, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I should add that I think it is right for DC to air these concerns, but it should be done directly to WMF - and if the allegations prove true, it should be for WMF to take whatever action is necessary. But allegations of this nature should not be conducted by public witch hunt. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 01:58, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. The sensationalism is the problem here, disruption for disruption's sake. DC is still free to send emails to Arbs, 'crats, and Jimbo if he sees the need. Note that I am still looking for a way to have DC stop pushing his blog on wiki. Binksternet (talk) 01:18, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * For fuck's sake this is the ol' "Good Cop/Bad Cop" ploy . First one user (the Bad Cop) makes a completely ridiculous proposal to ban someone for nothing (in fact, for actually trying to improve the project) which has no chance of getting traction, and everyone including the proposer knows it, then another user, the "Good Cop" plays the "well, gee shucks, I don't agree with, that, but..." card and goes on to propose a somewhat less ridiculous but still silly sanction... for nothing. Then, relative to the original proposal, the second less-ridiculous-but-still-silly proposal looks semi-legitimate and may actually have a chance of getting some supports. It's an old old old trick on Wikipedia. It used to work sometimes but I really thought people here have wizened up. NO to any sanction. Give DC a barnstar for bringing these issues to community's attention and ban the offending user instead. Get your priorities straight. Volunteer Marek 01:19, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support This is pretty much the sort of restriction I was looking for someone to suggest. It basically holds him to adhering to the policy, but words it so that it is clear there is no wiggle room.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 01:34, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose - The only correct response to a proposal this absurd is Nuts!. Voicing concerns regarding child safety is never in the wrong. Tarc (talk) 01:34, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Right, because the internet is calm and rational, willing to take an "innocent until proven guilty stance." Bringing this to ArbCom and/or WMF attention is to be commended. Tossing it out in public and repeatedly warring to keep it public is not in the right. This is not something that should be decided in the court of public opinion. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 02:16, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Point of information - WP:Child Protection explicitly includes this, which does ban some on-wiki activity in this regard: "Comments posted on Wikipedia suggesting that an editor may be a pedophile will be RevDeleted promptly, to avoid issues of privacy and possible libel. You should raise your concerns only by email; questions or accusations directed against a particular editor in project space may result in a block for the editor who posted them.".  Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:22, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * George, a problematic editor was identified to Arbcom; no action was taken. Speaking out in public against the presence of such people when the powers-that-be fail to act overrides website rule pages crowd-sourced by pseudonymous editors, as far as I'm concerned.  Sometimes public shaming is the only tool that one has left. Tarc (talk) 04:00, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * send to arbcom as per my above statement. this appears to be something that should not be dealt with by editors in an ANI setting, but by A report to arbcom, as policy, and office actions, dictate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aunva6 (talk • contribs) 01:37, 3 April 2013‎
 * Support - per Mark A. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No. The whole point of that policy is to make sure issues such as these are dealt with. Kevin (talk) 02:59, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No What may need consideration is why DC has to resort to drama to get obvious stuff handled. Arbcom has too many POV pushers demanding attention, and presumably Arbcom gets hundreds of very hard-to-decipher emails, so it is understandable that DC's emails to Arbcom have not got a prompt response. I infer from Carcharoth's above comments that DC may not have allowed much time before pushing the panic button, but that is no reason to prohibit DC from pointing out obvious problems in the future. Perhaps some limitation on edit warring over the issue would be appropriate, although more evidence would be needed for that. Johnuniq (talk) 03:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The editor in question himself posted a link on his user page to an offwiki page in which he makes certain admissions. Delicious Carbuncle presumably raised it onwiki because s/he received no acknowledgement from ArbCom. Perhaps we should add to Child protection that editors contacting ArbCom with these concerns should add something to the subject line (e.g. CHILDPROTECT) to alert the committee, and also to request an acknowledgment. That way, they'll know the issue has been seen. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:11, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Why not a dedicated childprotect@ email address? It could be copied to Arbcom, Jimbo and possibly WMF/legal & an OTRS queue. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:13, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose No reason to believe such would improve the project. Which is what we are supposed to be doing. Collect (talk) 05:05, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose such issues need to be dealt with. Clearly current process is inadequate for such problems and DC deserves community's gratitute for bringing it into attention.--Staberinde (talk) 08:26, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose, because nobody should be prevented from raising concerns about the safety of children, even if occasional cries of wolf are hurtful. Should the editor in question be counselled about making vexatious or outright unsubstantiated claims and accusations? Sure, maybe. But if 100 such claims include even 1 legitimate one and it prevents harm from coming to a child, I can live with the other 99. Sorry. Stalwart 111  09:31, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And to be clear - I'm not suggesting any of the accusations were vexatious or unsubstantiated (I don't know enough about them to make that judgement). I'm saying even if they were, I still couldn't support this proposal. Stalwart 111  10:21, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Johnuniq, Collect, Staberinde. This is not a case of weak circumstantial allegations that could seriously damage someone; it's entirely based on public admissions by the individual concerned, and as such needed to be acted upon hard and fast. If DC has forced Arbcom's hand in the matter, that's only to be commended. — Hex    (❝  ?!  ❞)   09:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose He ought to get a medal, is this how we treat whisleblowers around here? Darkness Shines (talk) 10:50, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose The wording is too complicated. A strict instruction to follow WP:Child Protection, coupled with the agreement already made   not to link to off-site blog posts that the User starts such discussions about is enough. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:34, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support DC got a productive editor blocked for nothing but thoughtcrime. Wikipedia should not exclude users based on their opinions or writings alone. Witchhunts like this are embarrassing and detrimental to the project and, in my personal view, unethical and unjust.  Them  From  Space  15:22, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thoughtcrime, is a valid consideration but WP:Child Protection seems to support such editor exclusions in this area of expression. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:38, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I think pointing out the good cop/bad cop scenario is an excellent observation.  Just because this is more reasonable than the withdrawn proposal doesn't make it reasonable.  And contrary to the OP's statement about bright line policies, all policies are subject to WP:IAR--if we could predict in advance that some policy is never subject to IAR, we wouldn't need IAR.  The user in question had pretty much indicated he was a pedophile elsewhere, and there wasn't any reasonable doubt that he was, so in this case that WP:CHILDPROTECTION clause doesn't do any good.  And ignoring that rule was the only way to force Arbcom into action. Ken Arromdee (talk) 15:47, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If SlimVirgin's summary is correct, then WP:Child Protection, in fact deals with the scenario. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:28, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * (removed my comment--misread) Ken Arromdee (talk) 18:24, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The only way? What about... you know... emailing them a second time? — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  19:32, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Ridiculous. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 15:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose That Delicious carbuncle sat and waited for 3 years waiting for ArbCom (see comment by Carcharoth) to do something shows great restraint. This isn't the case of someone making spurious and spontaneous allegations. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:13, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Third proposal
Topic ban Delicious carbuncle from edits related to Wikipediocracy, broadly construed, assuming s/he has some constructive edits. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:38, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Before there are any more proposals, I would like to see a diff for "Jimbo's written that Carbuncle threatened his family" listed as a reason for the first proposal. 28bytes (talk) 11:47, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I take User_talk:Crisco_1492 where he declined to substantiate the claim as an admission that it was made up. --B (talk) 11:56, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Or perhaps you could actually look at the post above, which has since been edited? Wow, I've never seen such a show of bad faith. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You edited it 3 minutes before I posted that - after I had already loaded the page - and what I said is 100% correct - it is not true that Jimbo accused him of threatening his family. In any event, does Delicious carbuncle run the forum?  I don't keep up with the drama there, but I thought this was in reference to someone else. --B (talk) 12:11, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I am not aware of any discussions (excluding the blog post) preceding Jimbo's talk page drama. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:17, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Per further, off-Wiki, clarification, it has become abundantly clear to myself that the issue in question had nothing to do with DC and that my accusation was baseless. It has since been redacted, and my support for the above proposal withdrawn. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:56, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * How about we topic ban Crisco 1492 from making childish proposals in ANI?--Staberinde (talk) 11:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * — Hex    (❝  ?!  ❞)   12:43, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * How about we ban drama and drama stirring remarks from ANI? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:04, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * How about we stop running around looking for people to ban?  Automatic Strikeout  ( T •  C  •  AAPT ) 15:15, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That's fine. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:17, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Fourth proposal
is thanked for a job well done.
 * Proposed. Sounds simple enough.  If you cannot agree that pedophilia, child pornography, or other forms of child abuse are unequivocally wrong, Wikipedia is not the place for you.  Even if you aren't actually using your account for advocacy of the same, that doesn't make it okay. --B (talk) 11:56, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Lovely false dichotomy there. Anyone who doesn't endorse your proposal must be an advocate for child abuse?  —Psychonaut (talk) 15:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Darkness Shines (talk) 11:59, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Neutral DB is to be commended for his constant vigilence; the user's methods and inexcusable resortation to off-wiki doxing (then linking it on-Wiki) leaves much to be desired. Private emails to Arbcom or other parties at the correct pay grade would be preferable. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:03, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:Child Protection and WP:BLP the job is not well done. Also, not an administrative action, if someone wants to thank the User, one should go to his/her talk page. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:09, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * lol. You either stand with us or with the pedophiles, eh? How sad that you have to rely on an ad hominem fallacy (not to mention false dichotomy) to defend doxing, multiple BLP violations and general attention whoreishness. DC and their latest target can both be in the wrong at the same time. Resolute 13:39, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Chewbacca defense. NE Ent 13:46, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose Though this really has no effect as anyone can thank him for it if they want. However, it should be noted that it is not supposed to be a community process for good reason. Many of you apparently don't care what happens to this editor DC has identified, and may not even care if something befalls this individual. Some of you would probably not care about something befalling him even if he never actually acted on his feelings. That is why it isn't supposed to be up to the community. Public airing of these sorts of allegations is a recipe for creating very real consequences for those accused.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 14:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The editor in question said on Wikipedia "I operated an FTP site containing boy child pornography in the 1990s". (The diff is posted on the message board of the site not to be named.) This discussion has nothing to do with anybody's personal feelings - it has to do with Wikipedia saying "if you believe in child pornography, pedophilia, etc, this isn't the place for you".  We don't have to wish him an eternity in Hell and we don't have to show up to his house with pitchforks, but normal human beings ought to be able to say, "we'd appreciate it if you pursued other endeavors." --B (talk) 14:23, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I remember the 1990s. It was two decades ago. Drmies (talk) 14:35, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That makes it okay? Unless there was some sort of dramatic conversion, in which he has completely repented of past behaviors, admits they were wrong, and can say with Ebenezer Scrooge, "I'm not the man I was", that's still not a direction we need to go.  I'm all for forgiveness.  I believe in forgiveness.  But for us to accept the editor in question, there needs to be a complete acceptance that child pornography, pedophilia, and other forms of child abuse are wrong. --B (talk) 14:43, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's in principle a matter for law enforcement. The user in question doesn't seem to be editing from prison, so you have to ask yourself why he is a free man. If society can trust him to live as a free man, to visit the local Kindergarten, then why can't we let him edit Wikipedia? A valid reason for blocking would be if he were to disruptively advocate pro-pedo opinions on the relevant wiki-pages, if he were to groom children here etc. etc. Count Iblis (talk) 16:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Umm, that's absurd. Should people who operate(d) child pornography FTP servers be allowed to be Boy Scout leaders, too?  Just because someone isn't in jail doesn't mean they belong on Wikipedia. --B (talk) 17:54, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This site isn't a high value target for pedophiles. We are not e.g. a social medium for children. People here contribute to the encyclopedia, everything else is a side show. Then there are certain features here that can in theory be abused by pedophiles, e.g. you can use the email facility to contact editors here. But then such contacts are monitored (not the content of the email but the fact that you sent an email). And if he indeed poses a big risk to children, then he would be much more dangerous when not editing Wikipedia and doing other things instead. Count Iblis (talk) 18:09, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That is not what Wikipedia does or should say because that goes against its purpose. You can't have any debate about minors and sexuality turn into a witch hunt where anyone who holds a disagreeable opinion has to be subjected to opposition research and public flogging. Earlier you said it doesn't matter if a person is only right 1% of the time, but it does matter. Sometimes you may also have someone who is somewhat right, but doesn't present it accurately as in this case. The reality is that the editor did not identify as a pedophile but expressed having a sexual attraction towards pubescent minors, which studies indicate is actually much more common and rarely acted upon. Indeed, in some parts of Europe the age of consent is low enough to cover most pubescent minors.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 18:10, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I must say I'm quite alarmed at the hysteria being expressed by certain people in this thread. It seems a lot of arguments here amount to nothing more than "WP:IAR because OMG PEDOPHILIA!!!!111!!" —Psychonaut (talk) 15:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - Doing the right thing in the face of bureaucratic malaise is always a good thing. DOn't be the US government to DC's Bradley Manning. Tarc (talk) 17:34, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Not that there's anything remotely resembling moral equivalence between the two ... stealing classified documents != exposing a self-admitted child pornography host. --B (talk) 17:55, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you're missing the point in that the authorities in both cases are more interested in prosecuting the breach of process than they are in discussing the validity of the material that was publicized. Tarc (talk) 19:56, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose I want to be clear on why I and so many others here have an issue with what DC has done. From Child protection:
 * I think the reason for this is fairly obvious; if I write is a pedophile, I shouldn't be allowed to hide behind a defense of "Yeah, but I was protecting children when I ruined 's career". So let's look at what's happened now. Despite massive amounts of RevDel and/or Oversight, dozens of editors now know who it is we're talking about. Anyone seriously curious can probably find it with a limited amount of on-wiki digging. Now, I don't mind that too much, since it sounds like the accusations were correct, but... what if they weren't? What if this turns out to be some convaluted misunderstanding? I'm not saying it will – in fact, I doubt it will – but is any of us really so confident in the evidence that we feel it's okay to say things about this user that would be seen as severely defamatory if found to be untrue.
 * Pedophiles suck. No objections there. I'm a teenager myself, and I'm quite happy to know that I don't have to worry about leering emails from creepy older guys when I edit Wikipedia. But there's a very clear process for dealing with them, and Delicious carbuncle didn't follow it. Instead, he emailed ArbCom once, got impatient (despite the fact that there was nothing in his evidence that suggested an imminent threat... child porn traffickers have no place on Wikipedia, but it's not the same thing as actually making sexual advances on a minor through Wikipedia), and as far as we know... proceeded to plaster the guy's name around several high-visibility pages, and edit-warred to keep the content visible. He did not take the time to send ArbCom a follow-up email asking where they were on the matter (I don't know about the rest of you, but I start pestering functionaries if I have an Oversight request outstanding for more than 15 minutes or so) despite having been specifically told in the past that this is what he should do, and that he would be blocked if he took any on-wiki recourse. As far as we know, he did not bother to email the Foundation, Jimbo, or OTRS on the matter either (from my experience, an email to gets responded to within under 5 minutes).
 * DC got trigger-happy here. He thought he was doing the right thing. But he should know better by now (I think that diff from AGK says it best), and the fact that he still doesn't is a problem. What if he gets it wrong next time? — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  19:13, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * PinkAmpersand, you may not be aware of the history here. ArbCom and I have a relationship going back years. At times it has been more productive than it is at present, but I believe there is enough of an institutional memory in that group that Arbs know what to expect when they see a report from me. The responses I have gotten from ArbCom in the recent past when reporting these types of cases have been less than satisfactory. So I decided to take a different approach and started writing blog posts. I have profiled three editors so far and sent ArbCom links to each of my posts. The first user profiled was blocked independently, the second is still editing, and the third has just been blocked (again, independent of ArbCom). I have made no secret of the fact that I believe ArbCom is ducking their responsibility in this matter. Statements from Arbs that they take this issue seriously or deal with these types of emails more quickly are not borne out by their actions. All ArbCom needed to do to prevent this debacle was to send me a note saying "we'll look into this" or "we're discussing this". In the absence of any such confirmation, I have no reason to believe that this issue was being discussed by the Committee before I brought it up on Jimbo's page, despite what Carcharoth may have said earlier. If ArbCom did not know what to expect when they got my latest email, they haven't been paying attention. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I assume they thought that they'd been clear enough last time about what would happen if you did this again. Setting aside your feelings toward ArbCom or vice versa... AGK said you should feel free to pester them as much as you wanted about this. Seeing as you knew that you could wind up with an ArbComBlock yourself for doing this, why didn't you take the time to send a second email? — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  20:09, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * To what end? I gave them more than enough chances to put their money where their mouth was. I have no antipathy for ArbCom as a whole. I generally feel sorry for anyone on ArbCom (although they asked to be elected to that position, so my sympathy only extends so far). The possibility of an ArbCom block doesn't concern me. If ArbCom wants to block me, they will. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:31, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "To what end?"?... To get them to block the user without having to bring it up on-wiki. According to Carcharoth, a second email would have almost definitely yielded a "Yes, we're looking into it" response. — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  21:06, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you may be missing the point here, PinkAmpersand. ArbCom wasn't acting on the information I sent them. I have no reason to believe that ArbCom were going to act on the situation at hand and every reason to believe that they were not. There is a lot here you don't know, but if you feel like reducing this to a question of one email not sent, please go bother ArbCom. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:31, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose: Acting to maximize drama is not "a job well done". --Carnildo (talk) 21:47, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Fifth proposal
Let's give ArbCom some time to handle this fiasco, broadly construed.  Automatic Strikeout  ( T •  C  •  AAPT ) 15:19, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Bam Support with addendum " or Jimbo or WMF."--v/r - TP 15:25, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes Per policies cited in opposition to the 4th proposal. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:52, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Any objection to just hatting the whole thing as a case of "time to move on with life"? --B (talk) 20:41, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. Many objections. — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  21:02, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Other than moar drama, what do you see as something to be achieved here? The editor in question is blocked indefinitely and no admin is going to remove that block.  Arbcom might choose to take an action, but the continuation of this thread isn't going to change whatever action they take.  Delicious carbuncle is not going to be sanctioned, blocked, or thanked.  Arbcom might choose to take an action, but continuation of this thread isn't going to change whatever action they take.  The disruption/drama from the "let's punish somebody" discussion vastly exceeded any disruption/drama that might have existed from originally posting the link.  So I ask, what is it that you would like for an administrator to do here? --B (talk) 21:16, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Unblock the blocked user
He is now blocked and he now has to prove his innocence on matters unrelated to editing Wikipedia. ArbCom has a track record of not unblocking unless the person is 100% clean (I know this from another case which had to do with a legal issue completely unrelated to child abuse). Whatever he may be doing wrong is a matter for law enforcement, not Wikipedia. It would be different if our policies were violated, if people were contacted on Wiki in inapproprate ways etc. etc. None of that is relevant in this case. Count Iblis (talk) 16:32, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Count Iblis, I admire your bravery in suggesting this, but I doubt any admin here is willing to risk losing their admin rights over this. Can I suggest that we have this discussion on the ArbCom talk page and get the Arbs to weigh in on the issues? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think that is a more appropriate venue. What should be discussed there is the general issue of an editor being blocked for reasons other than bad behavior here and then that becoming an ArbCom issue where there is no scrutiny from the community anymore. Count Iblis (talk) 17:59, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * While the blocking part is up to any administrator and/or Arbcom, the unblocking part is explicitly per policy an Arbcom-only decision. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 19:19, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll also point out that your statement and other comments give the impression that you believe he was blocked because editors didn't like his lifestyle and not for any policy-based reason. That is incorrect.  WP:CHILDPROTECT states that editors "who identify themselves as pedophiles will be blocked indefinitely".  The policy does not require any inappropriate onwiki interactions with minor editors. Ryan Vesey 20:39, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Except one has to ask if this individual actually did that in the first place. Pedophilia has a specific definition and the individual in question did not identify as a pedophile even implicitly going off that definition, but instead stated that he was attracted to pubescent minors, i.e. teenagers. As I noted above, the propriety of such relationships is subject to far more debate than those with prepubescent minors, to say nothing of mere arousal. I don't believe the intention of the policy was to encourage editors to go digging off-wiki to see if someone has ever admitted anywhere to being attracted to anyone under a given age of consent so they can get that person blocked.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 21:07, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hebephilia (and its talk page) is an interesting read on the subject. Suffice to say, it's a very controversial topic, underscored by the fact that there's currently an Arbcom case that was sparked by the issue. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:19, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I saw a hot 17 yr old girl downtown the other day. I'd hit it.  Guess ya'll have to ban me.--v/r - TP 21:21, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * How many child pornography FTP servers have you managed? --B (talk) 21:24, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit.--v/r - TP 21:27, 3 April 2013 (UTC) For the record, I am trolling at this point. So feel free to keep scrolling or trout me.--v/r - TP 21:27, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * WTF? --Onorem♠Dil 22:35, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I know that this whole discussion is moot and that the user in question is never going to be unblocked by Arbcom or the WMF, but I don't see the "he identified himself as a pedophile" part anywhere. He didn't. He was blocked for what he said and did off-wiki. We should at least be honest and change WP:CHILDPROTECT to reflect this status quo: Off-wiki behavior will be taken into account, and it's not just "self-identifying as a pedophile" or "actively engaging in pro-pedophile activism" that matters. The moment someone, somewhere on the web shows a vaguely positive view towards pedophilia he will be blocked, and WP:CHILDPROTECT should say so. --Conti|✉ 21:35, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If the point of the policy is to prevent the possibility of self-indentified pedophiles from associating with minors here, then it doesn't matter where the self identification took place. This view that Wikipedia is somehow a protected zone within society where the usual rules do not apply is ridiculous. Kevin (talk) 21:43, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Then why doesn't WP:CHILDPROTECT say so? --Conti|✉ 21:55, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If one reads the policy closely, it is silent on that aspect (or at the very least vague) Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:08, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Given the serious impact it can have on lives, it shouldn't be. The policy should be very explicit about what is and what is not allowed. Currently, any hint of pro-pedophile opinions (whether on- or off-wiki) can lead to a block, and neither arbcom nor the WMF will ever touch the block of anyone who has published such opinions. And since they are the only ones to overturn such blocks, the block will remain in place. So that's the status quo the policy should reflect: Anyone with a known pro-pedophile opinion will be blocked, regardless of his actual actions on Wikipedia. --Conti|✉ 22:27, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It should not have such an impact, if policy is followed. That is one of the reasons for discreet process.  Of course, publicizing it will but we cannot control what people publicize off-wiki -- only what we publicize on-wiki (Although, sometimes  we may be able to block for off-wiki harassment in instances where it arises to disrupt). Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:17, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree with Conti, off wiki behaviour should be taken into account. And when a user has stated that they had a private FTP server with images of children being abused by older men then they need to be blocked, reported to the local cops and have their nuts chopped off. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:04, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This type of commentary is why we should not discuss these things in a community process. It offers nothing and only fuels destructive attitudes.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 22:36, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Your of the opinion then that perverts should not get their nuts chopped off then? Darkness Shines (talk) 22:43, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * How would that work here on Wikipedia? Would Jimbo have to perform the castration? Count Iblis (talk) 22:51, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe the last thing we need is to have some people whipped into a frenzy with talk of castration and brutalization when talking about an actual person who could be subjected to vigilante "justice" by anyone here who may be willing and able to mete it out.-- The Devil's Advocate tlk.  cntrb. 23:00, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to elicit a tear of pity for such an abomination of a person, but so far the cheek is remaining as dry as a desert day. Tarc (talk) 23:12, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * What motivates me so much with this issue is that the hard line taken against the editor is primarily motivated by enforcing social norms that are irrelevant to maintaining Wikipedia. By doing that on one issue we feel strongly about we lose the argument that other Wikipedias should not enforce their social norms if these totally contradict our values. Also note that had Wikipedia existed in any other time in our history, we would almost always have taken the wrong decisions. Women, gay people, black people, Jews, atheists etc. etc. would all have been banned. The only thing that could have stopped that from happening is if we had exclusively focussed on maintaining Wikipedia. Therefore the only correct rule is to precisely do that and leave prosecuting pedos to the prosecutor, judge and jury. Count Iblis (talk) 23:14, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

THE SLY
For various days, (and possibly his/her IP, they have similar editing) has been adding unsourced and biased information to articles, including, but not limited to, Tigres de la UANL and San Luis F.C. 1, 2, 3. SLY has been warned in the past for violating the NPOV policy e.g., and multiple times warned at es.wiki 3. Since the account creation's, SLY has not proved any kind of communication with others, demostrated by his/her edit count. Last days, I gave him/her a final warning considering I warned the IP for including unsourced content and deliberately ignoring the warns, and considering I was reverted in less that a minute (a and b,) and the similar pages they edit, like Lucas Lobos, José José, et. al. They are likely the same person. Both accounts have denoted no intentions to discuss, source or balance they edits. I reported him/her at AIV, but it was declined (I haven't check why), but they need to stop. Tb hotch .™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions.  00:18, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * S/He continue adding unsourced an biased content. Tb hotch .™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it!  See terms and conditions.  02:50, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I semiprotected a page during a dispute in which I was involved
Just to be transparent, I've semiprotected the page Kenny Anderson (basketball), even though I was involved in a recent argument. For some context, see Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard, and the article's history. If anyone believes I was overstepping my bounds, feel free to remove the semiprotection. But if you do so, please promise to watchlist the article yourself. I'm tired of dealing with it by myself. The problems there have been going on for years - see this ignored post I made to BLPN in 2010. I feel that my actions were necessary to enforce the BLP policy in the face of good faith, but irresponsible editing. Zagal e jo^^^ 00:33, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I will keep an eye on it. The reason I didn't get into that discussion is that arguing with IPs intent on pushing material is useless. They don't care about blocks or number of reverts per 24 hours. Notice the discussion on the same page about Jonathan Goodyear. Short of an admin stepping in and protecting the page, there's nothing much we can do. And I really don't want to test the "3RR doesn't matter for BLPs" theory just in case someone decides I was unfairly reverting anything other than grossly libelous or truly problematic material. § FreeRangeFrog croak 00:44, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the help. Zagal e jo^^^ 00:57, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Why didn't you post request at WP:RPP instead of protecting yourself? NE Ent 02:03, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought about it, but such requests often take hours to get a response, and I didn't feel comfortable leaving the article in that state any longer. Zagal e jo^^^ 02:16, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I support the one-week semiprotection and I would have made it longer. It is distasteful that the IP is reverting to add the birthdates of Anderson's children to the article. The IPs argument (from BLPN) is that: "Kenny irresponsible action of multiple kids born in the same year with the same name to different mothers is his fault not oures. To leave it out is wrong as it is documented: in washington pist, court records, espn, etc." Wikipedia is under no requirement to include all documented facts, and it sounds like the IP is selecting data to push his POV regarding the moral character of the article subject. EdJohnston (talk) 02:42, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Austrian School edit warring
Not an emergency, but I'd like to get some more eyes on Austrian School. For the past couple months, there has been slow moving edit warring, adding and removing some criticisms of the group. Thus far, I've fully protected the page a couple of times and issued one block. None of this has changed things, and the edit warring continues unabated. I'm hesitant to spring for longer full protection or block people for the slow moving edit war. I'd love if some uninvolved users could offer some suggestions/or take action here. (Note that this wiki-conflict has received mainstream media attention.) Mark Arsten (talk) 19:23, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * thx, i will watch the ANI and offer help if possible. perhaps a good starting point would be to trim the articles length? the concept appears very straightforward not needing such a long article. one way might be ask the editors to create a sandbox version where only text can be removed then compare the results perhaps finding common ground. excess text could be recycled into other existing articles and new articles created as needed. Darkstar1st (talk) 19:58, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, that's great. I think I have read enough to say with some confidence that is an obstructionist who is guilty of edit-warring and should be blocked if they make another Krugman-related edit to that article again. As far as I'm concerned they should be topic-banned. Now, the RfC is a bit less clear and overwhelming than I'd like it to be (for the fans: it's in the talk page archive, page 6), but it supports LK's reverts. I don't know about article length--the thing as a whole seems moderately decently balanced, but the constant bickering is amazing, and I'd block Byelf for a month (they've already been blocked three times for the same thing) if those edits had been more recent than two days ago. Does that help, Mark? Thanks for dragging me into this, pal. Drmies (talk) 00:20, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 68kB is rather large, much of the bloat being trivia from critics. Darkstar1st (talk) 07:15, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Interestingly enough, it's almost the same size as Keynesian economics. Take that for what you will, I suppose. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:06, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 48kB, good point, both could use some trimming. notice the small criticism section of the Keynesian article compared to AE. Darkstar1st (talk) 19:18, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "I think I have read enough to say with some confidence that is an obstructionist" One, this ad hominem, and is irrelevant to the issue. Also, based on what arguments? Why am I an 'obstructionist'?
 * "As far as I'm concerned they should be topic-banned." Because?
 * "Now, the RfC is a bit less clear and overwhelming than I'd like it to be." The RfC included, I'm not making this up, literally "blah blah blah" in it. That's not a legitimate proposal for being voted on.
 * "I'd block Byelf for a month" Why?
 * "(they've already been blocked three times for the same thing)" That's not relevant to whether or not I should be again.
 * I'd also like to note that you do not mention any of the actual issues involved here (arguments for/against inclusion). I'll also add that I support inclusion of the Krugman material, just not in a particular form, but rather in another, because of what I see as a neutrality issue.
 * In any case, it's not relevant: other editors have repeatedly put the material in without consensus and without addressing opponents arguments. So I'm just following site policy and insisting that people who want content in address criticisms of it (prior to a consensus inclusion, which has not yet occurred).
 * Apparently, we're just supposed to take your word for it that I'm doing bad things on the page, but opponents to my edits are not? Based on what? I don't see a substantive contribution here, other than "Bfelf sucks". This isn't conducive to quality on this site. Byelf2007 (talk) 29 March 2013
 * You can say "ad hominem" until the cows come home. An editor asked an admin to look into the slow edit war going on in this article, and I did. I discovered that you are the edit warrior. You keep removing information that an RfC has agreed should be included, and so whoever reverts you is not being disruptive--rather, they are restoring consensus. You were blocked before for edit warring in that same article--three times. Sorry, but how is that not relevant? Drmies (talk) 16:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Eyes needed, indeed
Scientology was in better shape when it was edited by the Church of Scientology. In comparison, the "Austrian School" makes objectivism look like serious philosophy. Kiefer .Wolfowitz  12:23, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Lol - I've looked at the article a couple of times and ran away screaming. Mind you, I also ran away screaming when I had to study the subject at university decades ago (where I had the opportunity to fly a paper airplane during a lecture by Ayn Rand with my tutor watching me and laughing). Dougweller (talk) 13:15, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * See #19. MastCell Talk 16:52, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Doug, I now officially love you. That is one of the coolest stories I've ever heard. Will you gay marry me? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 10:49, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal for Byelf2007
I propose that be topic banned from Austrian School. His activity there has included edit warring (continually reverting in lieu of discussion), failure to respect consensus, and general WP:IDHT behavior. I think his presence on the page prevents any improvements to the topic because he feels he has the license to revert any content he doesn't want included. Mark Arsten (talk) 13:57, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * since one cannot edit-war alone, perhaps the editors who reverted each of Byelf's reverts should be topic banned as well? i cant think of any edit or revert Byelf has made that has survived recently? Darkstar1st (talk) 14:44, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Looking over the past few days, I see Byelf has been reverted by three different editors. I'm not sure there's enough evidence to case either of the three individuals as edit warriors. Looking back over the past couple months, Byelf seems to be the only user who is continually removing the content from the page. But if you have specific concerns about any other editors on the page, feel free to raise them here. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:17, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * scroll thru the older 500 view, notice how few/none of Byelf's edits/reverts have remained. it appears he lost every edit war, and regardless if the other editor was correct, or wp:truth, the fact remains it was a war with 2 or more belligerents, right? Darkstar1st (talk) 15:42, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. Yes, it takes two to tango--but it takes only one person to undo the conclusion of an RfC, which is what was happening here, and blocking the other person for restoring agreed-upon content is wholly unfair. BTW, I think that article needs a couple more RfC, on individual points, and it needs a rewrite: count how many sentences start "Economist X". Drmies (talk) 16:25, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * not so sure this will fix it, a rewrite would be a great place to start. count up the economist x, the overwhelmingly majority are critical of AS. Was refactoring the content 10+times really the best way? instead of edit warring there are other tools available and the reverting editors failed to use the appropriate method to end the disruption, possibly making the situation worse, definitely wasting many bytes and bandwidth intertubes. Darkstar1st (talk) 16:38, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. Sometimes one editor's conduct in an edit war is just wrong. That appears to be the case here. Byelf's pattern of behavior on the article and their inability to get it here warrant an article ban. If someone else has the fortitude to rewrite all or part of the article, more power to them.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:31, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * all editors edit warring are wrong, even those attempting to help. wp has specific guidelines to follow in this type of issue, obviously the editors choose to ignore. Darkstar1st (talk) 21:47, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps this is a problem of labels. Let's not call the other editors' conduct edit warring but simply reverting. There's nothing necessarily wrong with reverting that doesn't rise to the level of an edit war. But even if it does, it doesn't necessarily make it blockable. I close a lot of reports at WP:ANEW, and I exercise a fair amount of discretion in when to block and whom to block. Things just aren't as black and white as you seem to think they are.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:42, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * good point. i doubt the block will improve the article as none of his edits are in there now, perhaps mediation would be the best way forward? Darkstar1st (talk) 01:53, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I am puzzled by your statement: "there are other tools available and the reverting editors failed to use the appropriate method" Byelf could have been taken to the 3RR incident noticeboard for multiple violations prior to the RfC. For one example see here: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 and here: 1 2 3 4 5 6.  Instead, several editors patiently cited WP policy to Byelf and asked him to desist. Shortly thereafter, user:Lawrencekhoo initiated the RfC on December 10, 2012 .  So in fact LK did escalate, and in a constructive collegial manner, by initiating the RfC.  Moreover on several occasions editors have asked Byelf to propose alternative text for talk page discussion or consideration in a second RfC.  Instead, Byelf has recited an ever-changing litany of reasons for his opposition to the Krugman text, but he has not chosen to propose an alternative version.
 * I think that other editors have shown admirable restraint and patience toward Byelf's behavior. He has engaged in tendentious editing on Austrian School for approximately two years now. Other editors have calmly recited WP policy to him but he responds with WP:ICANTHEARYOU.   In this diff, he appears to WP:CANVAS user:Darkstar1st to ensure his RfC vote here: . He repeatedly denies the legitimacy of the WP RfC process.
 * I did not initiate the discussion in this forum, but since the matter appears to have come to a head, I will state that I favor an indefinite topic ban for user:Byelf2007 in Austrian School and related topics. Naturally he would be free to appeal the block in the future, according to WP standards and norms for such appeals.  SPECIFICO  talk  23:18, 29 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Support. I reviewed the history of tendentious editing, and agree following an RfC and months of IDHT that Byelf deserves a ban. If the editor contributes to related articles for e.g. 4 months without similar problems, then a return would be considered. Kiefer  .Wolfowitz  21:38, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per my comment above. Every other avenue has failed and this important article is suffering in gridlock.  SPECIFICO  talk  23:18, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per SPECIFICO's comment. --☥NEO (talk) 04:58, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Support -- I've done a bit of occasional work on that article, and it's almost always Byelf's clear attempts at POV-pushing that need addressing. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 05:15, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: -- Since the last post on this topic, user:Byelf2007 has continued to edit war on Austrian School and has engaged in WP:BATTLE behavior on Liquidity Trap, (a non-Austrian economic subject) and on his talk page. On April 2, he was blocked  for 72 hours.  It appears appropriate to consider the operational terms of a prospective topic ban for Byelf2007.  Under the circumstances, I suggest that a ban be defined to cover any  article related to Economics or to Libertarianism.   SPECIFICO  talk  03:16, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban from economics
At this point, I'm comfortable that the evidence and consensus here support a topic ban from economics for. I'm going to implement that topic ban as follows: Byelf2007 is indefinitely banned from pages related to economics, broadly construed. The topic ban may be appealed at any point by Byelf2007 on the administrators' noticeboard, although he is advised that any appeal or request to have the topic-ban lifted is more likely to be successful after demonstrating a track record of productive editing on other topics. I will leave this thread open for now to allow for any additional comments, concerns, or feedback. MastCell Talk 18:14, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunate that things have come to this, but at this point, I think this the best solution. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:09, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Class of 1700 students fill Wikipedia with plagiarism. Response from prof is accusation of illegal behaviour by editors
Please see Education noticeboard and Education noticeboard.

A 1st-year Introduction to Psychology class of 1700 students has been given an assignment that, we analysed, has an 85% plagiarism rate, in addition to the generally poor quality of edits.

This professor started under the education programme in 2011. Following a study of edits made by the 2011 class here with commentary here, the professor was asked to stop and work with Wikipedia to fix the assignment. Instead he went underground and choose, in his words, to "fly under the radar". In Spring this year hundreds (possibly as many as 800) of his students hit our psychology and neuroscience articles. Hammering them with extremely low quality edits that have caused one of our best expert psychology editors to go on Wikibreak. Now that we've reviewed the edits here we see a plagiarism rate of over 85%. We have asked the professor to stop.

Instead, the professor has made here lots of accusations, including stating that editors are "cyber-stalking" his students, that this is "borderline (or not) illegal", and he's a victim of a "witch hunting" from "villagers with a torch and pitchfork". I'm not prepared to have those who damage Wikipedia accuse me and others of behaving illegally. Per No legal threats this is at step too far.

I think Wikipedia should be asking the University of Toronto where we send the bill for cleaning up the plagiarised mess he's caused. There is no way this class should be allowed to edit on Wikipedia again, it is already abundantly clear they cause harm. In my opinion, the prof's purpose of using Wikipedia is to set assignments for his megaclass that don't require teaching assistants to mark. The precedent for this is the "peerScholar" website he developed that lets students mark each other. Wikipedia is simply being used as a free resource, with horrendous consequences for the quality of our science articles.

If admins here think there is merit to his claims wrt cyberstalking (which is a serious crime), then block my account now and I'm gone.

Colin°Talk 19:01, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As I understand the issue, Colin is totally in the right. Several editors and ed program staff have tried to reason with the instructor, to no avail. The edits are coming from too wide a range for blocking, but it was suggested that hard-blocking the entire branch campus where he teaches might be the only way to proceed. I'd support it if there were no other way: personally, I consider it should be dealt with as deliberate vandalism. There seem no other sanctions we can use--the students are not to blame. I think the only recourse will be to find a colleague who does understand WP and can explain it to him. We can't just ignore it and fix the articles, because it's clear he intends to repeat this every academic term.  DGG ( talk ) 19:11, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think this is the level where we should go to the head of the department and see if they can put a stop to the program. I'll also note that I would accept blocking the entire campus as a last resort. Ryan Vesey 19:21, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Blocking the campus wouldn't work, even if we were to accept the enormous collateral damage; many of the students apparently edit from off-campus. See this SPI for more background. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 19:28, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Although I'm looking forward with interest to the results of communicating with the department head, mentioned below, I want to disagree with the statement that a hard block would not work. It would have to extend beyond the campus to residential areas nearby, and even though there would still be some unblocked student IPs, it would have the effect of rendering the class assignment ineffective. (You can't maintain a class assignment if most of the class is blocked.) These issues are being discussed in more detail at the Education Noticeboard. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:52, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Good point; I should have thought of that. However, the collateral damage would be even greater in that case.  I agree that I can't see any alternatives, but it's hard for me to believe that that's the best thing we can do. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 19:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Btw, our lack of policy to deal with huge assignments going wrong led me to consider proposing a new policy, of which a very early draft is: Assignments. They can't normally be solved at the editor level, especially when the editor account has a lifetime of minutes. Colin°Talk 19:26, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yet another reason why registering an account should be necessary to edit, if you ask me. At German Wikipedia (and perhaps other Wikipedias as well), no edits by IPs or editors with few edits are shown before they have been accepted by an established user. Is there a reason English Wikipedia couldn't follow the German Wikipedia example?Jeppiz (talk) 19:23, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. And it's far too large a discussion, spanning years, to include here.  So let's not divert and derail this with such side-issues.  This incident is specific behaviour of specific people at a specific university.  Uncle G (talk) 20:28, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As far as legal threats, I find the comment to be borderline, in that he's not making a specific threat but is clearly trying to chill others out of cleaning up after his students. However, whether that comment is a threat or not, we have a serious problem in the editor himself, and in the classes he's sending to edit. We've been trying for some time on the Education Noticeboard to come up with a solution to the problem of a professor who doesn't, himself, edit, but only tasks his students with editing: blocking the professor won't stop the disruption from the students, blocking the students can be overly bitey when they're not the ones refusing to listen and anyway will only work temporarily, and blocking the IP range would (apparently, according to CUs) be of only limited use in stopping the disruption. So how, exactly, do we stop a professor who firmly believes it is his right to send his students here unprepared and unsupervised? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 19:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wrt legal issue, cyberstalking is a serious criminal offence, which together with the "illegal" word used, is a most threatening and chilling allegation against any editor. How can two editors remain on Wikipedia when one openly accuses another of a crime. It must be retracted or firmly rejected by the community, or one of the editors should leave. Colin°Talk 20:04, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not disputing the uncollegiality or unsuitability of what he said, Colin, but WP:NLT is intended to address cases where legal action is being taken or threatened to be taken, not so much accusations of crime (which actually fall more under our oversight policy than anything, since accusing someone of a crime can be construed as libel). The reason I say Woodsnake's comment is borderline on the NLT issue is that while it is intended to produce a chilling effect by referencing illegality, it's not actually a threat to take legal action against you, or even a "chilling" hint that he plans to. Again, that's not to say he's right to say what he said, or that it's not related to NLT, but NLT doesn't cover it as squarely as it might seem at first glance. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:42, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In response to your last question, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that a hard block of the campus and its surroundings may be the only tool we have. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:52, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm somewhat alarmed to find myself leaning that way, as well (well, as far as blocking the campus, not necessarily the surrounding area) - at a certain point, if the university cannot stop its users from abusing Wikipedia, the university loses its privilege to edit Wikipedia until it can deal with those users. It's hard to tell, though, if people like you and me think the idea makes sense because it's truly (among) the most sensible, or because we've gone slightly insane from staring at the issue and beating our heads against the wall for so long... A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 19:57, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I might offer my approval, but that'd probably only support your insane hypothesis.--v/r - TP 20:02, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * How would a block of the campus or surrounding area affect established users who might happen to live in the area (I'm not aware of any, but there probably are a few). When that type of block is made, does the blocker get to see a list of accounts whom that would affect and then grant an IP block exempt to those uninvolved? Go   Phightins  !  20:01, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Such a move might put pressure on the university to deal with the professor's actions. Only a CU could determine what accounts that would affect. --Rschen7754 20:03, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm replying here to multiple replies to me. Yes, it is kind of a new way of thinking about blocking policy to think about such a block, but in my opinion we are in a new circumstance where a new approach is going to be needed, and that includes going beyond the campus to nearby residential areas. I would want the block to be configured such that any registered user would retain access to their own user talk page, which would provide a mechanism for "collateral" victims to request an individual unblock. (I'm not an admin, so please bear with me if I don't understand all the technical aspects of blocking.) --Tryptofish (talk) 20:15, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Someone who knows more than I can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe in the event of a campuswide block (and maybe a little further) we would be blocking the IP address, anybody editing from that IP address, and blocking account creation from the address. EEstablished editors would need to request for an IP-block exemption and would remain blocked for lack of an alternative until they requested the exemption.  New accounts would need to be created through the account creation process.  Does that sound about right? Ryan Vesey 20:17, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Everyone else comes here unprepared and unsupervised. I know that I did.  Why should students be an exception?  &#9786;  Uncle G (talk) 20:28, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have emailed the department head of the psychology department notifying him of what's been going on per Ryan's suggestion. Go   Phightins  !  19:37, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I will post any response I get as soon as I get it. I blind-copied Ryan on the email since it was his suggestion, but I would be willing to send a copy to anyone who wants it...basically it just notified him of the discussion going on and that our attempts to rectify the problem with the professor were unsuccessful. Go   Phightins  !  20:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think you'd want to block off campus areas … you'll catch a good piece of downtown Toronto, including Bay Street and Yonge Street within four or five blocks. Assuming the offenders are not at the campus in Mississauga ...--Wehwalt (talk) 20:16, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In this case, we are talking about a satellite campus, not the main campus. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:19, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * CU comment: I only looked at a handful of the accounts when I was checking the sockpuppet case, but from what I remember, we would probably have to rangeblock a huge chunk of the Toronto area to stop even a fraction of them from editing. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 20:23, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, that doesn't seem like a good idea, necessarily. I suppose that all of the individual accounts plus the professor could be blocked. Or we could involve general counsel as suggested by Todd below. Go   Phightins  !  20:26, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree, leave it to the office. They have more heft with department heads anyway.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:31, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I couldn't support it at that point. If the University fails to take action, would it be a appropriate to block just the university to ppressure them into taking action? Ryan Vesey 20:32, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's the best way of go, we'd get a reputation for doing that fast Our article University of Toronto Scarborough BTW mentions only small numbers of residence halls relative to the listed number of students, and while we might be incomplete, it has the feel of a commuter school.  Doubtless the students come from all over the GTA.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:35, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, we should certainly pursue communication with university counsel before we consider any wide block. It's better if we can solve it that way. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:54, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth: Reading the whole of WoodSnake's edit above, rather than relying solely upon the excerpted hyperbole, it is clear that xe is trying to make the assertion that the plagiarism level of xyr students is no greater than the general level of plagiarism amongst Wikipedia editors overall, and challenging people to crunch the numbers to test this assertion. Of course, that is missing the point that, and not dealing with students when they do it on Wikipedia as part of a course is not really living up to one's faculty responsibilities (q.v.).  Uncle G (talk) 20:28, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I am most disturbed that this faculty member has admitted to "going underground" to avoid scrutiny by the members of the community on which he has unleashed his students. On the face of it, this seems to be highly unethical. If this were a U.S. institution, I would contact the institution's IRB. I know this isn't the typical project over which IRBs have jurisdiction but this certainly involves human subjects and they are well placed to protect this community of people from unnecessary disruption caused by university faculty and students. Is there a similar body in Canadian institutions that deals with research ethics? ElKevbo (talk) 20:59, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * A quick Google search yields this. Go   Phightins  !  21:01, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it looks like this is the right unit to contact. The foundation has this and will proceed as it deems appropriate but this is definitely one place they can go if things go sour with the faculty member and department chair. ElKevbo (talk) 21:12, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Procedural question
Forgive me for asking what might be an obvious question, but shouldn't the foundation be involved at this point? I mean you've got a professor WP:GAMEing wikipedia, getting paid for it, enlisting students to break the law (copyright law) on Wikipedia servers. Isn't that the kind of stuff the paid folks at the foundation are paid for? There's a reason they have a general counsel. Toddst1 (talk) 20:14, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hmm. That is an interesting thought. If my contact with the department head doesn't go well, that could be an alternate route. Who would we contact about that? Ironholds/Oliver? General counsel Geoff? Go   Phightins  !  20:24, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * {e/c)Yep. I'd start with Geoff without delay. This is a legal issue. If they don't want to touch it, they can throw it back to the communiity. Toddst1 (talk) 20:29, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Emailed Geoff in reference to this discussion. Go   Phightins  !  20:31, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I would suggest that a telephone call from the foundation's in-house counsel to the university's general counsel, specifying that a university professor has requested university students to engage in a pattern of disruptive editing, including potential breaches of applicable copyright law, might just have the desired effect. University GCs are a notoriously cautious lot whose principle function is to avoid unnecessary litigation and adverse coverage in the media.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have found the right guy; he's their counsel for "matters relating to the University's research activities, including research funding, commercialization, research ethics, policy development and implementation, and regulatory matters". Sounds like this. I won't post his name on here, as that might be considered unethical, but if there's an issue finding the man, I have it bookmarked. Go   Phightins  !  20:42, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely sure that it's a foundation issue rather than a community issue, but I'm certainly not sure it's not. My guess is that Philippe Beaudette is the one to tell us if it is or isn't a WMF issue and the one who can take it to the right people, I'm leaving him a note now. Ryan Vesey 20:28, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I can confirm that the Foundation is actively aware of this issue. Kevin Gorman (talk) 20:50, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If someone wants to send me the prof's contact information (I don't know his name or anything, or I'd just look it up) by email to philippe@undefinedwikimedia.org, either I or someone from the Global Ed program will give him a call and see if we can talk him down. I can't go in with guns a-blazing or anything, but I can certainly make a phone call and see if we can talk as two logical people and see how we resolve it.  Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 20:51, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sent you an email. Go   Phightins  !  20:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Xyr name is at User:WoodSnake (q.v.). Uncle G (talk) 20:57, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've reached out to the professor and to the department head. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 21:04, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * All right, if I get any response from him before you, I will forward it your way. Go   Phightins  !  21:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Here's another procedural question, do we wait for response from the professor and/or dept. head before bringing their general counsel into this? I have is email address and can send a message explaining the predicament if necessary, but I want some sort of quick consensus before doing that. Alternatively, we can hold off until tomorrow (as I doubt we'll here back at this point considering it is after 5 PM in Toronto (I believe they're in the eastern time zone) and have Geoff communicate with their GC. I'm fine either way. Go   Phightins  !  21:11, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

What about article protection or an edit filter?
It seems to me that if we protect or Semi protect the affected pages that might minimize some fo the problem and would be better than a block. There were 1700 students but a lot of the articles were the same. If this is a Psychology class, then it seems like we should be able to identify what's coming in. Additionally, we have several bots that look at plagiarism and copyright stuff. Can't they be tweaked to scrutinize the edits coming from that IP series where the university is? Just a possible alternative suggestion to a massive block. We could also set up an edit filter for that IP series that says to watch the edits from that area. Kumioko (talk) 20:31, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems to be a commuter school, which means the students likely often work from home. I suspect a fairly wide area.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:49, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Protection won't work. We don't know in advance which pages it will be, and once the students make two edits each, they are gone. We are talking about hundreds of pages, maybe more. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:50, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Or, alternatively, everyone could stop looking for a technical solution to a social problem. I suggest to everyone that Go Phightins! is on the right track by contacting the university.  Other people at the university need to be made aware of the situation, with reference to the university's own requirements about plagiarism, both on students and faculty.  If the professor continues to tacitly accept plagiarism amongst xyr students without any demonstrable move to tackle it, then other non-technical and imaginative approaches present themselves, such as (to pick something out of thin air) revoking the privileges of WoodSnake and replacing xyr user and user talk pages with a notice that Steve Joordens has had xyr Wikipedia editing privileges revoked for tacitly encouraging plagiarism amongst university students alongside a warning to xyr students that directs them to both our and the University of Toronto's policies on plagiarism.  Of course, you editors from the education noticeboard would have to make a solid case, and fully explore all avenues of contacting the university first, to have it do something about the errant professor, before such a prominent naming and shaming.  Remember that the goal is to get the professor to finally do the right thing, per xyr own university's requirements, not to be vindictive or punitive.  Uncle G (talk) 20:55, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Just so you know, the faculty member has already, repeatedly, rejected constructive responses from editors here. Also, he really does not make any edits in article space, so blocking him would not have an effect. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:00, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hence, we have contacted his real life superior. As for when and/or if we will get a response, I do not know, but if we do, I will be sure to consult the community and/or direct him to someone from WMF before I do anything that may have even a hint of controversy. Go   Phightins  !  21:03, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As I said: You need to make a solid case to that effect. You've presented one diff, which turns out upon reading to be an assertion that the plagiarism level is no greater than amongst the population at large, and a challenge to show otherwise with solid numbers, so far.  And you also need to follow through on what Go Phightins! is doing, first, as well.  Uncle G (talk) 21:14, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Tryptofish -- although a block would have no effect on WoodSnakes' account because he doesn't really use it, it would have, I believe, a significant effect on his students. Would you take part in an assignment on Wikipedia knowing the prof asking you to do it had been blocked for instigating such an assignment? Are students still somewhat militant, or have they gone soft since I was one? Colin°Talk 21:25, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Since you ask, my experience with students is that they care about the grade the professor is going to give them, not what some people at Wikipedia think. But, amid all the edit flurries here, I'm in favor of what the WMF is trying, as a first step before we go down the road of any kinds of blocks. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:33, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. We'd like to solve a problem.  We are not here to give some professor we don't know a lesson the effects of which we can't judge by trying to manipulate the psychology of students we'll never meet.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:37, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * And on another note, blocks are to be preventative, not punitive. Is there any evidence that the course is going to have additional assignments? If not, then we really cannot, under the blocking policy, issue a punitive block unless they are planning to do it again. Go   Phightins  !  21:42, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's unclear whether the course is over or not. Once it's over, that's true, until the next semester. There's a track record of this happening for this instructor year after year. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:57, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Bot Based Remedy
I think that asking large group of new editors to leave Wikipedia is missing the point and we should consider that they may not have a choice in the matter. I also do not believe the statistics above since we are unable to track them all. We need to find a way to deal with this type of group. Someone like User:Pgallert who has been managing larger groups of student (a whole department's worth) in Namibia might have some solutions on how he manages his students. My opinion is that if we set up a bot that handles scores for teachers they will make their students register with it and we can then deal with their work on individual basis but in a more automated manner. So by providing better incentives we can turn this tide of editors into a positive influence. BO &#124; Talk 20:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Generally, that's true, but in this case the instructor actually pulled out of the class project program and intentionally went "underground" when editors here asked him to do things differently. It's not about changing the student's minds: they make two quick edits for extra credit and then leave. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:04, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree but having a nice report for the teacher by email will motivate him to play with us! Especialy when it shows which student's plagiarizer/get reverted and which don'tBO &#124; Talk 21:07, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Also it look like this teacher thinks he is acting in good faith - and may agree to something like this solution if it is done scientifically.  BO &#124; Talk 21:12, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, I agree with you in the general case, but this particular professor apparently wants to see how editors here react to copyvio's by the students, so he won't take the bait. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:15, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Which would make this whole thing some sort of Breaching experiment. Not a good thing. - TexasAndroid (talk) 21:50, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Close this now?
Ok all. I'm very, very tempted to close this out at this point, though I'll hold off a little bit. IMHO all talk of technical solutions is very premature. And as for non-technical solutions, the foundation is now involved, so we really should back off and let them handle it until/unless they are unable to reach a solution and kick it back to the community. Am I missing some reason for us to keep this discussion going at this point? - TexasAndroid (talk) 21:09, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I sincerely doubt that the WMF is going to do anything. They are historically very elusive when it comes to making decisions that affect editors or editing. What you typically see is the WMF kicking the problem back to the community to deal with. Kumioko (talk) 21:13, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. I haven't got an individual section heading for my part of the discussion, yet.  Do we all get one each?  &#9786; Uncle G (talk) 21:16, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll AGF that the WMF is stepping up in this case, and I'm looking forward eagerly to see what they can accomplish, but it does not seem to me like the problem has been solved yet. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:19, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, I fully agree that nothing has been solved. I'm mostly questioning whether or not we *can* solve anything while WMF is actively working on the issue.  We don't want to get in their way, I would think.  And until WMF exhausts any efforts that it is willing to put into this, I'm not sure what else we can accomplish here. - TexasAndroid (talk) 21:33, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Let's give it maybe three more hours to make sure there are no new developments (off chance we get a response tonight), and then we can close it; it can always be opened again if necessary. Go   Phightins  !  21:35, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm pleased the foundation is investigating. I hope Joordens doesn't sweet-talk them into inaction. I'm still concerned that there has been no community response to the allegation of criminal behaviour (which not only concerns my activities but those performing the sock-puppet investigations). While I may be mistaken wrt the wikilaw about what constitutes a legal threat, it most certainly is a very serious personal attack. I would like some admin to let him know such allegations aren't ever acceptable and to ask him to retract it. Colin°Talk 21:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Btw, student activity seemed to die around the 23rd March and they may be on holiday this week? I don't know when the next student assignment is planned-for. And what does the community think should be done about the plagiarism that has been added? Colin°Talk 21:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know what the community can do other than begin the arduous task of cleaning up the mess either by removing the plagiarism or paraphrasing it better. Go   Phightins  !  21:38, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know either, but I'll point out that, with about 1700 students, this cleanup is "collateral damage" in its own right. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:41, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Media attention
This ANI thread has now been linked on Hacker News. I think it is in everyone (course staff and Wikipedia editors) interest to avoid media attention here and handle this through discussion by the involved parties. GabrielF (talk) 21:18, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * While I agree that it is in everyone's interests to avoid media attention, I would hardly call a blog entitled "Hacker News" media... Go  Phightins  !  21:20, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hacker News is widely read in the tech industry. Hacker in this case refers more to the building cool things in a startup environment sense of the term than the illegal activity sense of the term. My concern is that the story will be picked up by more mainstream publications. GabrielF (talk) 21:28, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Come to think of it, if the media got involved and gave the university some bad press, wouldn't they bend over backwards to fix the problem? Not saying that's the ideal way to solve the problem, but wouldn't we get the desired result: the professor cleaning up his act? Go   Phightins  !  21:31, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd call it a "medium". But that's grammar for you.  And we cannot have grammar here, in a group of encyclopaedia writers.  &#9786;  Uncle G (talk) 21:34, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * That depends on what the media say. For all we know, they might take the professor's side. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:37, 2 April 2013 (UTC) Uncle G, some of us don't think it's funny. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:37, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know how the media could construe it in a way that doesn't include "University of Toronto" and "plagiarism" in the same sentence, something the University I'm sure would like to avoid. Go   Phightins  !  21:39, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "WIKIPEDIA THREATENS TO BLOCK TORONTO" Which most people will interpret to mean, block from viewing.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:42, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * True, but we are not threatening, at least we should not be threatening, to block unless there's hard evidence that this professor has more planned (ec prior to this post). Go   Phightins  !  21:45, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Being on Hacker News basically means it will be picked up by main stream media tomorrow or Thursday. It is read by some of the most influential readers/writers in the tech industry. The discussion there is somewhat mixed. Alex Chamberlain (talk) 21:48, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I would agree with your characterization of the discussion. Hopefully they'll contact Philippe or someone for comment before writing a story, but if not, we may have a secondary problem on our hands. Go   Phightins  !  21:50, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * It's also made it to reddit. 50.198.13.161 (talk) 23:19, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Block of User:WoodSnake
We need to strongly protect our editors from those who are disruptive and make threatening legal remarks against them as done here. Stating that it is 1) cyber-stalking and 2) borderline (or not) illegal to review his students edits is bizarre and shows a lack of competence. I propose and indefinite ban until the WMF, the community and he come to an appropriate agreement on if and how he is allowed to continue editing. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:33, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support block Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:50, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Not a solution - The user's editing hasn't been problematic, generally. His real-world guidance has been causing issues, and a block doesn't help in any way about that. Preventing him from editing serves absolutely no purpose, and runs the risk of alienating him and/or complicating discussions. We're trying to engage in dialogue but propose to block him from editing? I'm pretty sure there has been some preliminary agreement earlier in the discussion that the specific post referenced here wasn't exactly a violation of WP:NLT, and even if it was eventually considered as such, a warning and suggestion to reword would be a highly preferable course of action. I am not endorsing anything specific he has said or done, but a block doesn't solve anything and is potential for more trouble. Of course, that's open to change if further things are said that cleanly cross a line. :) · Salvidrim!  ·  &#9993;  05:57, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what a block would accomplish here. He's not using the WoodSnake account for much of anything and he already knows that the community is displeased. I think its more important at this point that the lines of communication are open so that the issue can be resolved civilly. GabrielF (talk) 06:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Canada Education Program/Courses/Present/WikiPsych (Steve Joordens) lists four Campus Ambassadors. Any chance one of them might be able to help? --Guy Macon (talk) 06:10, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Those are from a year ago. Not sure if they are still active. Contacted them previously. Few edits either. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:15, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose:I'm sure there is a problem with the editor's understanding and use of Wikipedia. However blocking is not the solution. I've worked with outreach programmes, I'm sure with a little tact and patience, this professor would be an asset to Wikipedia. The local chapter ought to take a lead in the matter. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:13, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Was he made aware of wp:NLT? His suggestion of control group seems pretty scientific. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:19, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose Wikipedia is a website. We do not use our policies, which are not graven in stone, to affect how people act in the real world.  This should be left to the office.  As should the pedophile matter elsewhere on this page, IMO.  In his statement, what he said, at least on the surface, seems reasonable btw.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:22, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Blocking could jeopardize working this out via lines of communication and since he has not proceeded with any legal action, nor threatened to pursue it (just that he thinks possibly someone might have (or might not have) broken a law which we obviously know did not happen), he himself hasn't vandalized or plagiarized anything, and he hasn't indicated that he will in the future. Blocks are to be preventative, not punitive, so I fail to see how one would help in this case. Go   Phightins  !  10:30, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose This will create more problems than it solves.  Automatic Strikeout  ( T •  C  •  AAPT ) 15:04, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure so simply letting him continue editing will give the impression that the community does not have an serious issue with his class editing in the style they are and "under the radar". A partial analysis of his classes edits has been done and the amount of plagiarism is significant. This further analysis he proposes is not need as we already have two years of data.


 * He in fact agreed to stop editing which is why we did not pursue things a year ago. With respect to comparing his students to another group of new editors I have dealt with lots of new edits and not seen rates of plagiarism this great. He students sort of stand out as they frequently add refs to behind the U of T's firewall. It is hard not to notice a pattern. Unsure what "problems" people see blocking him as making? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 15:41, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Time out Our objective should be to make sure that this doesn't happen again, and to do so with the minimum of drama. There are currently actions being taken by the WMF and the Education board.  Can't we give them a chance to solve the problem?  I propose that we give this a couple of weeks and then reactivate the matter if it hasn't been solved.  We could name a group of editors who are responsible for doing that -- I'm willing to be one of them.  (I'm the one who first brought up the new problems on the Education Noticeboard.) Looie496 (talk) 16:17, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It appears per here that the education program has warned the prof in the past. I guess it is reasonable to give the WMF some time. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:36, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Pointless A user who almost never edits Wikipedia causes some problems for Wikipedia in real life, and we suggest to block him? It's not that I'm opposed to a block, I just don't see what difference it would make. If someone created WP:DONQUIXOTE, it would apply here.Jeppiz (talk) 16:22, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Update - Philippe has (or had at some point today) a Skype meeting with Joordens, so why don't we all keep our pants on until then? Go   Phightins  !  19:12, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Also there are hundreds of more edits that need looking at and the group of us working on it would love more help. Feel free to jump on in here  Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Update: - [ http://www.dailydot.com/news/wikipedia-joordens-toronto-professor-plagiarism/ ] --Guy Macon (talk) 16:52, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

User:SpyMagician behavior towards me
I'd like to report an incident. It started at the article Ages of consent in Asia. The age of consent in India has recently changed to 18. In order to update the article I added this new information, with a source (see the talk page of Ages of consent in Asia, there are plenty of sources listed there). I was reverted THREE times, without any explanation AND received hostile messages on my talk page. User:SpyMagician called my edits "combative & dismissive ". Now I may have not been perfect in this dispute, but is it normal and acceptable to be repeatedly reverted when you add sourced information and be attacked on talk page for trying to improve an article? Do people simply go around reverting new edits without even reading them? (I agree that I may have acted angrily, but is it justifiable to revert without properly reading and to attack an editor on their talk page for doing nothing else than trying to update an article with sourced information?)188.25.27.35 (talk) 13:04, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I have added a notification on the user's talk page. <span style="color:blue; font-family:'Segoe UI', verdana, sans-serif, arial;">Mediran ( t  •  c ) 13:14, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Your edit was reverted three times, by User:SpyMagician, User:Solarra and User:Josve05a. -- Hoary (talk) 13:19, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I reverted it the second time as I thought it was an attempt at possible factual inaccuracies. After further research I found ample sources to support the proposed revision, but as it was obviously contested proposed it be discussed on the article's talk page and posted a link for the IP user to be able to source his contribution there as well as seek guidance as to how to properly include it into the article.  Hope this helps :-)  ♥ Solarra ♥  ♪ Talk ♪  ߷  ♀ Contribs ♀
 * Correction: the edit wasn't so much contested as apparently blindly reverted. Recent changes patroller sees IP editor making an edit that removes material, boom, it's Twinkled right back, warning and all. Drmies (talk) 19:23, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Typical. IP makes an edit, references and all, and a brief edit summary, and is immediately reverted without explanation "because it didn't appear constructive to me", by a Recent changes patroller who all of a sudden racks up over 2000 semi-automated edits per month. IP reverts, is reverted again, reverts, is reverted again, and is justifiably pissed. The last reverter has the gall to say "His edits are combative & dismissive", which is complete nonsense: reverting without a proper explanation, that's what is combative and dismissive. Fortunately Solarra made an attempt to make up for it--really, though what Solarra should have done after looking at the sources is reinstate the IPs edits. Trouts to and to, both of whom reverted blindly and (in the case of SpyMagician) tried to make up for it by insulting the IP editor some more. And another one to , who had the nerve to pile it on here with accusations of incivility and personal attacks--no, Mediran, your "warning" was incivil and a borderline personal attack. IP, thank you for the report, and thank you for your contribution. Solarra, thank you for your realizing that this wasn't exactly right. Case closed with the warning that Recent changes patrollers should be much, much more careful judging IP edits--no, they should try to judge them in the first place. You're scaring off possible new editors. Drmies (talk) 19:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * At least part of the problem is that patrolling has become something of a race; no time for investigating or thinking, gotta rack up those edits and get there before anyone else. Malleus Fatuorum 19:23, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, there seems to be a rather easy solution for that: do NPP the old way, not semiautomated. And at least try to assume good faith, even (or especially from) IP editors, until you are proven wrong. Lectonar (talk) 19:28, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * A user comes along. Makes an edit. Does so with little to no explanation. Can only respond in badly formatted text & odd sentences. Can't even sign their name to comments. Feigns being a newbie, but somehow knows how to post to an administrator's noticeboard & is aware of the 3 revert rule? I claim that this IP user is not a new user, will not be scared off & is fully conscious of what they have done. And in this case I am the last of a total of 3 other editors who have acted against this IP editor. But somehow I am bearing the brunt of what exactly? --SpyMagician (talk) 00:51, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * For this edit. Only vandalism and trolling should be just reverted without at minimum an edit summary and preferably a talk page edit. NE Ent 02:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You are simply the third, last, and most irritated-sounding reverter of an edit. You may have had an excellent reason for reverting the edit (and even for reverting it in the way that you did), but no reason is immediately apparent to the IP or various others (e.g. myself). Did you have a reason, or did you simply goof? (Most of us goof from time to time - certainly I do.) If you goofed, say that you goofed. If you didn't goof, please explain. -- Hoary (talk) 02:12, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I did not goof. I explained why I reverted their edit above. And I stand by my assertion that the IP editor is far from a new user. Their edits were without regard towards references that existed previously. So is this a discussion of my edits, the concept of vandalism patrol, or a trial that is specifically dumping on me because one IP user had a fit? The invocation of the 3 revert rule falls more on the IP user who has complained than any of the 3 users let alone me. That evidence exists more than anything else. --SpyMagician (talk) 02:28, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture here but I personally don't see anything wrong with the IP's edit. Although the India Times is not a law journal by any means, his edits were clearly made in good faith and were an attempt to update outdated information. His/her rationale for editing is irrelevant, it's assume that what he did was in the interest of keeping Wikipedia updated, assuming otherwise without evidence is a clear and distinct example of a violation of WP:AGF. I guess he specifically mentioned you as you labelled his good faith edits as "dismissive" and "combative" even though a reliable source was provided and no one provided him/her with a reason for why they reverted his edits. I sympathise with the IP and can fully understand why he is frustrated particularly after being labelled as an unconstructive editor while attempting to improve Wikipedia. YuMaNuMa Contrib 04:03, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * IP editors are often not new users, SpyMagician. There was a four-day period recently when, through a combination of travel and closed proxies, I edited from at least six different IPs in four different states. Of course, I'm logged in, so you can track my edits from one IP to the next, but if I were logged out, I would appear to be this random guy who knows an immense amount of Wikipedia policy straight from his "first" edit. — PinkAmpers  &#38;  <sup style="color:#000;">( Je vous invite à me parler )  06:46, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "IP editors are often not new users, SpyMagician." Did you read what I wrote where I contend that this user is not a new editor based on the fact while they feign knowledge about doing basic things on Wikipedia—such as signing their posts—yet they somehow know where the administrator's noticeboard is & understand what the 3 revert rule is? I don't believe this user is some magical stray puppy that needs to be protected from their own bad editing habits. I was one of 3 editors who saw the edit, saw the IP user's erratic method of communication & deduced this was an edit that warranted reversion. I contend what I did at the moment was correct & I stand by any future edits that might have even reverted that. If one editor is on vandalism patrol & they notice an issue that wreaks of vandalism, then they have the right to act on that. If another later editor comes in & sees something else that adds substance despite the user's erratic behavior, they too have the right to act on that. Simple as that. Now can someone explain how the user Drmies behavior now towards me is in any way civil, with me basically being berated, “Your summary bears no relationship to reality.” on my talk page? Because I say this with no contention but my original assertion: The IP editor's behavior warranted the response I gave. I genuinely see no issue in in. And being berated or having passive-aggresive posts on my talk page do not change my opinion on this. Please move on & get over it. --SpyMagician (talk) 12:41, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "from their own bad editing habits"--the IP did not have a bad editing habit. Stop digging. The edit didn't even reek ("wreak") of vandalism, as should be obvious to anyone who can read English--provided of course they took the time to read the actual edit. Drmies (talk) 20:33, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

SpyMagician, you say "I did not goof." You did goof. You reverted the addition of adequately sourced material (A) that disagreed with other material already cited (B). It disagreed because (A) is newer than (B) and the world, and the facts about it, changed from the time reflected in (B) to the time reflected in (A). This has been pointed out above.

I've done things that are just as stupid. But when they're brought to my attention, I acknowledge them, and even apologize for them. You don't. Why not?

If you really still don't understand your goof, then you are slow on the uptake. I first tend to attribute slowness of uptake to exhaustion from too many edits (the "bad editing habits" that you rather freely attribute to others). But I may be wrong. Is there some other problem? -- Hoary (talk) 00:23, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

User: Taskin the Great
seems to match a pattern of low-quality stub creation about historical subjects "sourced" to Wikipedia. I believe this was a thing a couple of months ago but I'm not sure if this is someone evading a block or something like that. § FreeRangeFrog croak 23:35, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've tidied the articles as best I can.-- Auric    talk  00:08, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * This might be a Polllilur sock. I've notified Peridon to have a look. - MrX 04:13, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Only two edits, but for my money that's Polllilur. I'll add this to the SPI. Peridon (talk) 19:23, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * They'd only just closed the last one, too. Not blocked yet - I've asked for CU but mightn't get it. For me, there's a quack. Peridon (talk) 19:30, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

User:BobiSwiftie
appears to be here almost solely to promote Taylor Swift. Their talk page is full of warnings about violating BLP policy by adding unsourced content to articles/making unsourced changes, they had a block for this last November as well.

A lot of their changes centre around bumping up chart positions/sales figures in Swift's albums (often very specific numbers):
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * 

They've also, at times, removed a huge amount of content from articles without leaving any explanation:
 * 
 * 
 * 

Other promotional fluff (some sourced, some unsourced):
 * 
 * - which is actually a copyvio, as it's lifted STRAIGHT from the source
 * 

At best, here we have a WP:SPA that has little idea how Wikipedia works (yes, they have edited a handful of articles that aren't directly Taylor Swift, but most of those edits are about artists whom have either worked with her, or whom Swift has written songs about (e.g., Tim McGraw). At worst, we have a fangirl/fanboy whom has no interest in following guidelines - and given that this has been ongoing since November last year, I suspect it may be the latter. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 13:50, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The second set of diffs may just be disruptive incompetence, and the first and third set may just be someone unfamiliar with policy and using their own OR or not citing their sources. I would think it's just a fan. Has anyone tried to explain the issues using non-automated posts to her/his talkpage? IRWolfie- (talk) 15:35, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Sometimes they cite sources, sometimes they don't. As far as I can see, there is only one non-auto comment, about the reliability of Twitter. That said, I haven't seen an edit to any talk page by this user. Interesting to see they were warned for vandalism not long after my ANI notice went on their page. The creation of a page named "Ahhhh" in the past raises eyebrows as well. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 15:46, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yep, I see BobiSwiftie has never engaged with another editor. In fact the only talk page edit I could find was this blanking of their user talk page:, IRWolfie- (talk) 18:12, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd like to think your attempt to discuss it with them would work, but I doubt it. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 18:46, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Note - I've de-archived this as it isn't resolved, and the user is STILL making unsourced alterations, and has not responded to any notification of this: . Sadly, this user is clearly WP:NOTHERE and probably needs an indef. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 10:56, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Like the above thread, I'd personally call this as a WP:COMPETENCE issue more than anything else. A message along the lines of "use edit summaries and sources or we'll block you until you understand what we mean" might get the message through, though it's still a bit of a blunt instrument. Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   11:08, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I doubt it - this user has never replied to any message they've been left, so the message wouldn't help. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 11:55, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn't make myself clear - I meant block AND message. Usually gets someone's attention! Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   12:07, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, Lukeno94 has given him what appears to be a final warning, and he has not edited since (though it's been less than an hour). I reiterated the warning with angry bold text and suggested that he come here. If the next edit is also unsourced, block away - but if this were at AIV I'd decline for lack of edits after the final warning. Let's keep an eye on this one. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 12:41, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I just tried a new approach on this user's talk page. It will be interesting to see if I get a response. :) --Guy Macon (talk) 13:56, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I saw their addition of what appears to be copyvio quotes from reviews sourced to Taylor Swift's website before I saw your comment, and Blocked for 72 hours. No reservations about the block, but I apologize for not checking the talk page first. Hopefully, they discuss the issues before rushing into a longer block. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 14:17, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Good block. Nothing like not being able to edit articles to free up time for talk page discussion... :) --Guy Macon (talk) 16:31, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

DPL Bot
Check this on my TP- is the bot functioning correctly? I haven't edited Willem Jeths, so am unlikely to have created any Disam Links. In fact no-one has in the last few days. What gives? <b style="color:Green;">Basket </b><sub style="color:orange;">Feudalist 17:19, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Generally, unless you think it's urgent, you should report bot problems on the bot's talk page or on the owner's talk page.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:26, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Not urgent. Got me to read an article I would never hhave otherwise known existed <b style="color:Green;">Basket </b><sub style="color:orange;">Feudalist  17:31, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I disambigged the three terms that the bot reported. One of them was easy. The other two I either did it right or we don't have an article on the term. Take a look and see what you think if you feel like it. (Drmies, if you see this, you should look at it.)--Bbb23 (talk) 17:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * (ec) In looking at a few of the bot's edits to other user's talk pages near the edit to your talk page, it looks like a good sampling of the users haven't edited their assigned article in 3-5 days. May be a queuing problem or something.  It seems to have stopped for the day, so try the 'bot board. Rgrds. --64.85.214.111 (talk) 17:44, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It might well be something to do with the job queue. It's pretty badly backed up at the moment. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:14, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

User:Mywikieditbh
This user (Mywikieditbh) has been making unsourced content changes to the article on North India. This includes replacing a map built on solid references with a map they've made themselves that reflects his/her POV. He has spurned repeated attempts to get him to engage in any form of discussion, which I have been completely willing to do. I posted to his/her talk page and noticed it was full of other complaints like mine from multiple other users. It's the same refrain: PoV edits, with poor or no sourcing, deletion of good material, zero explanations or willingness to engage in any conversation. I am notifying the editor on their talk page about this report over here so maybe he/she will at least try to explain whatever it is they're after over here. Updated: I also looked at Bhojpuri language:Revision history and I see he's edit warred extensively there too (192.151.243.xxx and Mywikieditbh are clearly the same user seen across multiple articles), resulting in the editors of that page having to protect it. Same m.o. - big, unreferenced and factually incorrect changes with zero discussion. --Hunnjazal (talk) 00:50, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Persistent disruption by User:Qworty in articles on gender studies academics
This user has persistently been behaving disruptively in articles on gender studies academics (perhaps for some political reason), and engages in wikihounding of me, a form of harrassment (Harrassment). His disruption includes edit-warring to delete whole sections (the customary list of books written by the article subject), frivolously claiming such lists are "unsourced" (a bibliography is obviously sourced by itself) and "spam"(!). (see eg. ,), and spamming articles on obviously notable people which are translated from the German Wikipedia which has a very high notability treshold (eg.)) with no less than 6(!) frivolous tags, a clear case of spamming. As he is constantly following me around to attack new articles I write or articles I edit in the way described, he is clearly doing this specifically to inhibit my work and behave disruptively in articles I am editing per Harrassment and Disruptive editing. Octet sole (talk) 01:25, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Octet sole is a maintenance-tag vandal, as seen here    .  Not all of the maintenance tags were placed by me, but are the work of multiple editors.  Octet sole has been warned many times about vandalizing the tags, with the warnings coming mostly in edit summaries, but continues to remove the tags without explanation, and without discussing issues on talk pages, as consistently advised.  I warned the user on her own talk page  but she blanked even that, again without explanation. Qworty (talk) 04:16, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As a third-party, I have reverted your latest removal of the maintenance tags at Ursula Apitzsch; I feel the issues have not sufficiently been addressed. I recommend discussion of some sort (did you even attempt to do this before coming to ANI?) rather than blind accusations of vandalism against Qworty or any other editors. Given your edit summary here, I would also recommend a reading of WP:OWN. -- Kinu  t/c 18:17, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, I have added more references and added the ISBNs for the publications (thereby referencing them). Both of you need to dial back your use of the term "vandalism" - removing a section as unreferenced and adding multiple tags, although not the most constructive of edits, are not valdalism, and neither is removing tags being a vandal. I suggest further improving the article building on what I've done so that the rest of the tags can be removed. Yngvadottir (talk) 00:24, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree it's not generally vandalism, so I didn't use the term in this report. But the sum of his behaviour, which included following me from article to article to bombard them with half a dozen tags (even notability tags for articles with versions in other Wikipedia editions) and blank whole sections of bibliographies and remove other uncontroversial information, and on top of that edit-warring and calling me a vandal, was extremely disruptive at the very least. I want him to stop following me from article to article to inhibit my work per Harrassment. Octet sole (talk) 10:19, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Also note that Qworty continues his disruptive activity, eg. by blanking the entire Örebro University article, leaving just a single sentence. While the article could need some improvement and more sources, it only contains uncontroversial information found in a dozen other language editions and lead sections are not normally heavily referenced. Note that I'm a third party in this question, as I didn't write the article, and despite this, Qworty uses a false edit summary implying I am introducing changes to the article, when he is the one drastically altering the stable version of it, and without any discussio. Octet sole (talk) 10:31, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Quite a display of atrocious behavior by established editors who should know better. A new editor (whether new to wikipedia or new to en-wiki isn't clear) and creates a series of perfectly appropriate articles on subjects relating to academia. Good work. The referencing is imperfect, but looks like it meets the standards for the other-language wikipedias from which information was drawn. A helping hand to the new user, and a few carefully-placed citation-needed tags on particular statements would have been an appropriate way to approach this. Instead, a few loud-mouth bullyboys dropped in, plastered the articles with absurdly overbroad tagging and insultingly hectoring the new editor. Just about the paradigm for WP:BITE violations, and not the way to improve an encyclopedia. Judging by the behavior here, one Octet sole is more valuable to our project than one hundred Qwortys, and some of the responses here, especially administrative, are really disappointing. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 12:15, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Creating a new user with a possibly offensive name directly after having the old user by that name renamed.
After having made a string of questionable edits on articles relating to India and/or Pakistan, such as deleting properly sourced text without discussing it on the talk page (the diffs show my reversals of his edits, with edit summaries), adding claims that where not supported by the refs also added (that is trying to sneak in claims hoping that no-one would check the refs) and adding POV-tag to an article without specifying what the issues were (that is behaving in a purely disruptive way), User:Theoccupiedkashmir was informed on his talk page that another user intended to report his user name as offensive, based on a combination of the user name and his edit history. Which made "Theoccupiedkashmir" request a name change, possibly to avoid having his edits discussed. The name change, to User:Maxx786, was promptly granted, and his old pages, including his edit history, was moved to that name on 1 April, 2013. The old name, Theoccupiedkashmir, was however registered again the next day, 2 April 2013, apparently by the same user (because it's a definite duck judging by the edit history), and is now "in operation" again. And since he is now no longer burdened by his old troublesome edit history the user has started a fresh new life here, under the same possibly offensive username that he previously used. In addition to that "Theoccupiedkashmir's" user and user talk pages are redirected to the new user, "Maxx786", meaning that "Theoccupiedkashmir" in effect doesn't have any user and user talk pages of his own, which could possibly cause problems if or when someone is going to issue warnings to him. So my question is simply if doing a thing like this is OK. Thomas.W (talk) 21:28, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As I recall from transitioning from to, if an editor logs back in under the old account name the old account is automatically recreated. Additionally it's often recommended the old name be recreated to prevent another editor from doing so. (Which is why  exists with zero edits.) As there are total of three edits under the old name it's way premature to be assigning any maliciousness or disruption to the situation. NE Ent 22:49, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't that be sockpuppetry? The user page redirects are relics of the page move and should probably remain so any earlier edits by User:Maxx786 that might still be signed "Theoccupiedkashmir" can be attributed to the correct user. Huon (talk) 22:47, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not sockpuppetry -- there's no attempt to hide the linkage between the accounts. NE Ent 22:50, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I missed your previous response. Anyway, if the old account was automatically recreated, who would be editing from it? If it's the old editor, that seems to defeat the purpose of the name change. Huon (talk) 23:25, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * (That's because I posted after you did but, very strangely, rather than an edit conflict it topposted my response. Weird. Not important.) Agreed; the point is a simple query (do you realize your logged in under the old account name?) rather than an accusatory ANI thread would be the better response. NE Ent 23:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I didn't get a new notification about my username change ... Now, I have logged in using the new username ... Thanks

--Maxx786 (talk) 07:09, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The account [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&action=view&user=Theoccupiedkashmir was recreated] because, presumably, the editor was still logged in with the old name after the rename was done. The username still exists on [//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth/Theoccupiedkashmir several other projects]. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 14:00, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Trigger happy twinkle an uncommunicative patroller
is very happy for reverting vandalism with Twinkle - a little too happy judging from the many unanswered requests to explain reversions of non-vandalism edits on his talkpage. When asked he doesn't seem interested in communicating that he understands our policies or in acting collegially. In fact when he does communicate it is often biting or riducling such as here. I don't think s/he needs access to automated tools untill s/he shows he understand policies and collegiality.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:09, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Can we please get an approval process for Twinkle or, at the very least, a blacklist? Ryan Vesey 03:00, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Or just tie it to the rollback userright.--v/r - TP 03:07, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Why would we do that? You shouldn't have to have the rollback right to automatically CSD tag an article. I wouldn't oppose an approval process, though. T  C  N7 JM  03:10, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Any admin can simply remove it from their common.js/vector.js.  Snowolf How can I help? 09:15, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm on it. Drmies (talk) 02:59, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, I've perused a bunch of their edits and left them a warning. I don't care one way or the either how we do it, but Twinkle is waaaay too easy for such editors and invites snark and damage. Drmies (talk) 03:16, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Twinkle generally has less destructive potential than, say, AWB, however it has always confused me that it basically hands out freely access to an option Wikipedia has an approval process for. I'm generally against adding bureaucracy and I definitely don't think it needs to be tied to the Rollback right as it performs much, much more, but I believe it should replace the Rollback right and use the same approval process as AWB. I was a rollbacker, and once I discovered Twinkle, I didn't use the Rollback right once. Only Twinkle. :) · Salvidrim!  ·  &#9993;  03:35, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps this is overcomplicating matters but what about joining the twinkle revert functions up with the rollback right while leaving things like CSD tagging, PRODing, etc as general use? Cabe  6403  (Talk•Sign) 08:01, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * SHZ needs a heads up about their sig too. Blackmane (talk) 09:33, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The easiest solution would be to create a blacklist, where users who have misused Twinkle can be listed. Then, Twinkle can check that blacklist to see if the current user is on it, and if so, disable itself.  This would basically mean that all users are given access to Twinkle by default (i.e. the same situation as today), except we'd add a measure of control for problematic users.  No additional bureaucracy required.  <span style="font:small-caps 1.2em Garamond,Times,serif;color:#777777;letter-spacing:0.2em;">‑Scottywong <span style="font:0.75em Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;color:#772277;">| spill the beans _  14:42, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yep, this is by far the best solution. Wikipedia needs less red tape, not more of it. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 18:10, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. Anyone on the blacklist can have their .js Twinkle settings page salted, I guess? :) · Salvidrim!  ·  &#9993;  18:36, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If this is a good idea, does anyone want to move forward with it?  Automatic Strikeout  ( T •  C  •  AAPT ) 20:46, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a wonderful idea. I think we should try to implement it ASAP. T  C  N7 JM  20:49, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with the idea as well. If the Twinkle developers will make the update, I don't even think we need an RfC. Ryan Vesey 20:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This used to exist. Why did it get removed in the first place? -- King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 21:03, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. Fine idea to have a blacklist. -- Alexf(talk) 12:28, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

(←) A quick search of the WT:TWINKLE archives led to an AN duscussion that had some background information. It appears, if I read it correctly, when Twinkle was rewritten in 2011 the blacklisting was not included in the new process. The AN discussion concluded it was too easy to circumvent the blacklisting at the time and just more busy work and creep, but hey, WP:CCC. Rgrds. --64.85.214.111 (talk) 13:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Pile on support. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 13:35, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Hang on! If we are to have blacklisting for Twinkle, then shouldn't we also have it for all those other tools that implement rollback in JavaScript?  E.g. AVT, and its derivatives.  Let's be clear what's happened here, historically.  Once upon a time only admins had MediaWiki rollback rights, and lots of anti-vandal tools were written to make non-admins productive anti-vandalisers.  Then rollback was granted more widely, for performance reasons, and some tools (e.g. Huggle) then required it, but not all.  Now we have some people demanding control over who uses what tools.  I don't think this is the way to go, not least because it might discourage tool development.  Any user of a tool is held responsible for what he does with it, and the blame attaches to the user, not the fact that the user was using the tool.  Either the user deserves a series of warnings leading to a block, or he doesn't.  Controlling access to a tool (as opposed to a MediaWiki facility) is not the way to go. Philip Trueman (talk) 16:23, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Yep, this was already tried, and it didn't really work. There is no practical way to 100% prevent unauthorized persons from using twinkle. If they abuse it after being asked to stop, we have an appropriate response already at our disposal. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:18, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There's no 100% way of stopping sockpuppeters getting RfAed. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have some kind of system in place to prevent it happening. A system not being foolproof is not a reason not to have it. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 20:00, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Boing! said Zebedee
This admin Boing! said Zebedee giving me block threats and accusing me that I'm doing political campaigning. I respect all wikipedians here, got nothing to do with any political parties, the block warning sounds like admin wants to stop me from my attempts to fix an article's issue with its neutrality.

Supplied book which clearly shows the distinction of castes but admin brings up irrelevant sections from book to the talk page and trying to make the decent talk to a mess. I strongly suggest for a topic ban on this admin. I would like to request some senior admins attention here, apparently there is some sort of "admin gang up" in progress in the talk page.

I strongly request to take off admin privelages from above mentioned admin, because he has been misusing it, yesterday he blocked another user from talk page and within minutes reverted after realising he was wrong,  irajeev wiki   talk  19:42, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * See Talk:Ezhava - all of it - and consider WP:BOOMERANG. - Sitush (talk) 19:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This looks like just another run-of-the-mill content dispute. I don't have the time to look at it now, but this doesn't seem to be something to desysop Boing! said Zebedee over. Also, as Sitush said, this may well end in a WP:BOOMERANG. - a boat   that can float!   (watch me float)  19:51, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Anyone who is interested might also want to consider the recent request for imposition of WP:GS/Caste made here. Patience has generally run out now: there is WP:IDHT in spades, and not a little WP:CIR involved also. - Sitush (talk) 19:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Was this archived before it was closed? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 03:25, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. There is no requirement that ANI discussions are formally closed. - Sitush (talk) 06:21, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment:It is unfortunate that Drmies has blocked Rajeev, Martijn has blocked Rajeev, (the block log says it is Martijn, but the notice is put by Drmies) the fellow is new and is trying to learn the ropes. The problem with the Ezhava page is that it is patrolled by a few admins and editors, that makes this allegation of "tagging" possible. I had appealed at the "India notice board" requesting editors to step in at Ezhava, to explain to these newcomers that they do not comprehend Wikipedia policy adequately as manifest from their edits on the talk page and else where. For the present I appeal that Rajeev be unblocked, perhaps Zebedee himself could unblock Rajeev as a good faith gesture. I don't understand the description "long history of disruption" for someone whose first edit was on 12 January 2013. I am not claiming that the sanctions have been wrongly applied, I appeal for leniency, in the interests of the project. Rajeev has a demonstrated commitment for the processes that run Wikipedia as manifest in his sitting out of a discussion until he could purchase a book that he thought supported his argument, and then coming back to the discussion (that is why he says above, "Supplied book which clearly shows the distinction of castes..."). Yogesh Khandke (talk) 02:27, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Just have a read of Talk:Ezhava, if you can face it - I don't really think I need to say anything more than that. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:11, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've seen that article talk page before, thanks. OK, I don't like swinging the boomerang around, but here it is: I'm blocking this account for three days to prevent further disruption. In my opinion, this retaliatory ANI thread, which comes on the heels of a justifiably issued warning which invoked WP:GS/Caste, is a disruption and is blockable: the General sanctions allow for sanctions for edits that fail to adhere to "expected standards of behavior". User has a long history of disruption in caste-related articles, and enough is enough. PS: will someone log this for me, please? I got a kid to pick up. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 20:19, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Has been logged by . De728631 (talk) 21:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, I could scrap "long". But I stand by "disruption"--a disruptive escalation. BTW, Martijn's block was last month; this one is mine. I am rarely opposed to leniency. Drmies (talk) 02:57, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Also consider that Rajeev has made only 2 article edits in the 400 odd edits he has made. 0.5%. This fellow is trying to discuss. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 03:19, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yogesh, how many times do newcomers need to repeat their disruptive WP:IDHT behaviour before we are allowed it is appropriate to take some action? "Discuss" is great, but "attack", "berate", "battle" are not, and it is plain to anyone reading Talk:Ezhava which of those is actually happening. Our purpose here is to build an encyclopedia (and the purpose of admins is to assist and support those engaged in that task), not to act as social support for people who possess neither the temperament nor the competence to take part in this collaborative project. Attracting new editors is a big part of what we do, but so is weeding out those who refuse to listen, refuse to follow community policy and consensus, and approach everything with a battleground mentality. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:12, 4 April 2013 (UTC) (modified -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:53, 4 April 2013 (UTC))
 * I accept what you have stated, it is for admins to exercise their privileges as they understand the situation best. I for that matter have appealed for leniency. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 08:11, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. If we saw some commitment to drop the battleground approach, I would also support leniency and would support an early unblock - and I would, indeed, be prepared to do the unblock myself (with the blocking admin's consent). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * CommentThis is clearly an attempt at gagging criticism, and the block was made by making a false claim ("long"). Rajeev has been blocked for criticizing an admin. If admins are infallible and cannot be criticized, just declare it in some policy. I have seen several incidents in which admins make false claims and begin threatening/blocking Indian eds on the basis of those false claims. WP admins are clearly engaging in racist behavior here and such admins should be banned from WP.OrangesRyellow (talk) 03:07, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps not the case, OrangesRyellow: Consider that you may be less than accurate in this case, please check the Ezhava talk page, could you provide an example supported by a diff, to substantiate your allegation please. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 03:19, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

OrangesRyellow
I would like to request action against User:OrangesRyellow for that accusation of racism against me - here's the diff, for the record. Racism is disgusting, and unfounded accusations of racism are also disgusting. I consider it a very serious personal attack, and if I saw such an accusation made against another editor I would reach straight for a block. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:12, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a mighty "vague" accusation. Maybe a warning on their talk page? Preventative, not punitive. Doc   talk  07:31, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "WP admins are clearly engaging in racist behavior" doesn't sound at all vague to me, and as this section is targeted at me and I am one of the few admins engaged in this subject area, I think I am justified in taking it personally. As for "preventative", yes, something to prevent further accusations is what I am requesting -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Strafing would escalate and not de-escalate matters. An unqualified apology from Oranges ought to put things to rest. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:49, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I would consider that acceptable. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:52, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Justified? Perhaps. But that's not really want what we're here for, is it? Ignoring such ridiculous accusations is better for the project -- they show confidence in one's actions and deescalate the situation better than a block talk-talk-talk-apologize eventual unblock scenario would. NE Ent 10:13, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * But when it comes from an editor with a history of low-level disruption and personal attacks (and always chipping into things he hasn't been involved in, if he can use them as an excuse to attack the people he doesn't like), it amounts to a drain on the goodwill of editors working in a very tricky subject area. And stopping such tactics is very much one of the things we (admins, at least) are here for. But see next comment... -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:37, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No, ignoring accusations of racism is a very very bad idea. These accusations only serve to poison the well. Very serious but evidently false accusations should result in blocks for disruption and not be tolerated. In general, the editor should specifically retract the accusation or substantiate it. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:47, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, the response to his talk page warning is not exactly a retraction - User talk:OrangesRyellow -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:58, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Ched has left a warning on the user's talk page; I say let's let that suffice unless the editor repeats the behavior. NE Ent 10:13, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, I'm happy to leave it at a warning - providing it proves to be effective. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:37, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * He didn't retract what he said when he replied: . IRWolfie- (talk) 18:50, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As childish as it sounds, I really want him to either apologise or substantiate the claim. As admins, we are generally subjected to a fair bit of abuse, which generally easily slides off - up to and including death threats. Being called, or watching my fellow admins being called racist though does really sting - and I have the feeling he actually believes it, though that's my perception. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:18, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Alas, I suspect that you will not get one except under sufferance. They have been contributing today and so far have not apologised or retracted despite a couple of notes suggesting that they do so (one from me). Of course, they may just have been paying a flying visit today but Boing's summary of character above ring pretty true to me & so the likelihood of them returning to this thread appears to be low. - Sitush (talk) 19:56, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Folks, I appreciate your thoughts, but it isn't worth wasting any time over. As I've gone about my business this week I've lost a pair of spectacles and I've trodden in dog shit. But I have plenty of spare specs and my shoes clean easily - and I'm happy to treat accusations from the likes of OrangesRyellow with the same disdain. His words speak only of himself. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:03, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Update
After consulting Drmies, I've accepted irajeevwiki's unblock request. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 04:04, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks Zebedee. Let us hope that by this wonderful gesture, he is encouraged to contribute constructively to the project. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:46, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Requesting review of speedy delete
Can someone take a look at User_talk:Visionat? I deleted following this help desk post, explained to the editor why I did and now I have been accused of "preserving racism" and being a "pro-apartheid Wikipedian". The article wasn't entirely promotional, but I felt confident that most admins would also have deleted it on sight. SmartSE (talk) 23:11, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Can't see deleted content, but the reaction and claims about discrimination (apartheid? what?) are excessive at best and indicative of larger issues than just having had an article deleted. § FreeRangeFrog croak 23:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * See User:Visionat/C-Graph.-- Auric    talk  23:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've warned the user that they'll be blocked for a good long time if the very nasty personal attacks continue. Maybe I should have blocked straight off, but what can I say, I'm a milquetoast admin. I'm also going to bed now; I hope somebody else will in fact block for a good long time if the nonsense continues. Nobody should have to put up with that crap. Bishonen &#124; talk 23:56, 3 April 2013 (UTC).
 * OK, thanks for that. So just a heads up, there's this. Might want to take it into consideration when dealing with her. Apparently her fiancee was murdered by an international racism conspiracy, allegedly tied to the University of Aberdeen, to prevent development of a GNU graphing package. There's also a website, which I shall not link to, that documents a bunch of other stuff, including accusations about other international conspiracies involving MIT academics. I believe care should be exercised when dealing with this person. § FreeRangeFrog croak 00:02, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think there was anything wrong with the speedy deletion. Vision can request review in the normal channels if she doesn't like it. But her reactions point her out as someone who may be fundamentally incapable of collaborative editing. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on how this evolves. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:08, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This article is part promotion, part allegation/soapboxing about alleged criminal activities ("As may be inferred from the University's non-disclosure in breach of its obligations under the DPA,[44] the conclusive evidence adduced is not amenable to challenge. The continuing cover-up relies on...") and very little actual third-party, RS coverage about the nominal subject of the article. Whether or not DRV would overturn a speedy nomination, I'd likely !vote delete at an AFD. Resolute 00:19, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for taking a look. If I did make the right call though, User:Visionat/C-Graph should also be deleted as it is exactly the same as what I deleted. I'd prefer that someone else took care of it, but if someone doesn't soon I'll delete it. I'm not happy with us hosting material with essentially unsourced accusations of theft, racism and forgery. SmartSE (talk) 10:49, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The page is no more acceptable in userspace. Wikipedia will not host attack pages anywhere. I've deleted it. Bishonen &#124; talk 15:19, 4 April 2013 (UTC).
 * Thanks. SmartSE (talk) 15:35, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Bishonen just reminded me about this forum. Had you taken the time to read the impugned article - and the sources - you would have been able to verify that the allegations are reliably sourced. The live page was deleted as I was adding such further sources. As I indicated on my talk page deletion of the article evidently serves only the interests of the eminent criminal enterprise and the continuing cover-up. That being the case, I am not surprised regarding the deletion of the page in my userspace, which included even further citations of verifiable evidence.


 * Anyone can become a Wikipedia editor or administrator. So Wikipedia has a few problems? [User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] claims my GNU C-Graph is an attack page. Who is/are the article attacking? Are the secondary sources which include international and public agencies and officials themselves presenting reliable facts on theft, racial discrimination and apartheid that are self-attacking? The user page you deleted included additional citations to such reliable secondary sources providing further verification to the facts cited in the article. Who benefits by covering up the information elucidated by these sources?


 * Perhaps you need to articulate the issues that you claim justify the deletion to help those who are viewing this conversation (I am sending messages) better understand why an historic case on apartheid in universities - moreover one subject to a blanket cover-up by national and international law enforcement authorities - should be excluded from an article in Wikipedia with verifiable secondary sources. What are Wikipedia's policies concerning racial discrimination - and censorship of articles on racial discrimination and their authors? Visionat (talk) 21:11, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Bluntly, notability is an issue beyond the fact that the article existed for the dual purpose of promoting this software and attacking the alleged theft (unproven) and coverup (unproven). Of the 47 inline references (not all of which are citations), 24 go back to Thompson herself. Several have absolutely nothing at all to do with either Thompson or this software (notably the two articles complaining about the ICC and several about mathematical formulas), and the rest are pretty much letters and responses to allegations.  There is, as far as I can tell, not a single reliable, third party, neutral, non-trivial source about the nominal subject of that article, the "GNU C-Graph".  The response I posted above after my first glance was far too charitable to your position.  This article was little more than a soapbox to continue your campaign against the University. Wikipedia does not exist to right great wrongs, and unless significant third-party, independent, reliable coverage can be shown, this is definitely an obvious speedy delete. Resolute 23:16, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Given the obvious bias, it would be a waste of my time to continue discussions here. I have software to develop and further criminal complaints to draft. I am now completing the citations in the article and will resolve the issue through more appropriate channels at Wikipedia. All the citations are concerned with the software as the theft of the associated rights is crime underlying the commission of apartheid. The software and it's underlying dissertation are at the heart of the issue. Obviously, an encyclopedia cannot of itself "right great wrongs", but it can assist in the perpetration of such wrongs by concealing encyclopedic facts from the public. I am obviously accustomed to pedestrian reactions to any mention of "racial discrimination". "Biased" is far too charitable a description for your actions. As I said, I don't have the time to waste here. Visionat (talk) 00:49, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok you seem to miss the general point everyone is trying to raise; if you feel there should be an article about something it must be covered by reliable third party sources to meet notability requirements. There isn't a "more appropriate channel" if you can't meet that basic requirement for an article to exist. If notability can be established legal action could be mentioned, again if covered by RS, then it has to be neutral. The extent you could say that currently there are legal proceedings from party x against party y for z. It wouldn't accuse someone of theft or try to write anything as fact - once a ruling is provided that can be added but even then if the ruling is not in favor it would still need to be reported. Reiterating your borderline (and in cases overboard) attacks isn't going to help you get people to adopt your point of view because all you are doing is setting up a toxic atmosphere. If it is truly something you want to see covered you would need at least a couple of RS to start and then mark it as a stub for someone to work on if they ever decide to, or yourself if you have time. Waving your hands wildly without providing materials to ensure that people can say it meets the basic requirements for an article and then trying to demean everyone that shows you why the article doesn't meet these things isn't helping. Tivanir2 (talk) 18:52, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I have no idea what the truth of your allegations are, but I do know that Wikipedia is a tertiary source, and if secondary sources aren't available, then this is not encyclopedic material as Wikipedia defines it. You can accuse me of bias and throw out boogeyman claims like "apartheid" if you like, but you asked for someone to articulate why this artcile merited deletion and I obliged.  Throwing down meritless accusations (both overt and implied) of nefarious intent on my part while refusing to respond to the substance of my comments does not serve as a reasonable defence of your position. The simple truth is that we cannot write a neutral article if the only sources available flow through you.  Resolute 22:06, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

User:Wondering55

 * A month ago, Wondering55 was sent to ANI for methodically removing all citations to one newspaper, specifically one newspaper reporter's articles: Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive788. He was warned not to keep doing so.
 * Today he did another such removal: ; on top of that, he is changing the citation to refer to a WP:SPS, and thus threatening the GA status of that article.
 * As such, I think Wondering55 should be indefinitely blocked per WP:NOTHERE as his only purpose here is to eliminate citations to a newspaper reporter's articles that he apparently has a grudge against. He continued the behavior after being warned. I would do this myself, but I'm put in a bit of an awkward position as most of the removals are from U.S. Roads articles; due to my prominent position in that WikiProject, I'm referring the matter to someone else, though I don't think I'm biased here. --Rschen7754 08:08, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I note that Dennis Brown proposed mentoring in the previous ANI thread. What was the result of that? Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   09:06, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Dennis tried to talk him down, and it apparently didn't work. User talk:Wondering55 It seems that the account is only here for one purpose, and mentoring someone who is bent on one purpose is not a good use of resources, in my opinion. --Rschen7754 09:13, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * From my perspective, it look more like WP:COMPETENCE than WP:NOTHERE, though his penchant for explaining himself in great and tedious detail does him no favours. Dennis is, as usual, bang on point and I agree with his insights. I think before we wield the banhammer, we make it unambiguously and abundantly clear what he's doing wrong and draw a line in the sand, making it incredibly clear that a block might happen if he crosses it. Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   09:22, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * We already did that last time - why do we need another round? --Rschen7754 09:22, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've had a look through his contributions and he has started using talk pages, which (at least according to Seb) he wasn't before the ANI thread, so I think he is trying to contribute, even if he does so in a boorish manner. For a WP:NOTHERE claim to stick, in my view, I would expect to see multiple warning templates on the talk page, including a few "this is your last warning" ones at the bottom. I also note that no invitation to the teahouse has been posted on his talk page - as a new user, that may be worth considering. Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   09:33, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, but most of his talk page ramblings are basically "why did you undo my changes?" and repeated WP:IDHT. --Rschen7754 09:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * For what it is worth, I did point them to the Teahouse in my "Dear Friend" comment, near the bottom. Dennis Brown - 2¢  © Join WER 14:05, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have dropped a note on Wondering55's talk page - we'll see what comes out of that. Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   13:07, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm torn here. My first instinct is to offer one final piece of rope, one more chance than they likely have not earned.  However, the logical side of me says that it won't matter and that we will end up here again if we do, causing more collateral damage along the way.  Some people simply do not do well in a collaborative environment; they are simply not wired for it.  My estimation is that this is what we have here, and that no amount of mentoring is going to make a difference.  I don't draw this conclusion flippantly, nor do I enjoy having to do express it, but to say otherwise would simply be dishonest of me.  I did try to approach them on their talk page, which was responded to politely but with excuses rather than a desire to learn what the expectations are.  We are pretty independent around here, and that is part of the charm that is Wikipedia, but it still requires a degree of conformity in how we deal with disputes or the whole system breaks down.  I'm not convinced this person can do this, or truly understands this.  I will leave it to others to determine a proper course of action, as I really have no idea what would be best in this situation. Dennis Brown - 2¢  © Join WER 13:49, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well I'd consider his latest edit here, adding a substantial amount of unreferenced content, and moving an existing reference around, to be problematic, though I'll leave it up to the people who understand the topic to comment on that. Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   14:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There should be no problem with my latest Pulaski Skyway edit here since every single one of my significant edits includes a cited source or was addressed in Talk:Pulaski Skyway for the accepted statement that I added in other sections in order to maintain consistency in the article. In addition, I moved an existing reference around since the same source referred to an existing statement and multiple consecutive statements that I added next to it. Rather than insert the source after each consecutive sentence, I included the original source once in a summary statement at the beginning of the paragraph that referred to all existing and new referenced consecutive sentences that immediately followed in that paragraph. All of my edits added significant value and clarification to the entire Pulaski Skyway article when reviewed in its full context.Wondering55 (talk) 16:03, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I would like to add a constructive perspective to the issues that have been raised on this Talk page since some of the information that has been presented is inaccurate, biased, or does not represent the complete picture. Since my original kerfuffle as a novice Wikipedia editor, the record clearly shows that I have been diligent and focused in adding significant value, updates, and corrections to multiple articles without removing Record articles.

In addition, I have followed the advice of Seb and opened up some Talk pages to raise issues and asked for substantiated feedback on whether some of the cited Record articles should be replaced with more reliable sources since the reported info in a cited Record article either had absolutely NO details in regards to the referenced article statements or had information that was in contradiction to the referenced statements or facts. I have NOT continued to make any widespread effort to remove Record articles without some type of resolution.

In fact, my updates for Route 24 New Jersey, which seems to have started this new kerfuffle, were based on adding value, updates, and corrections for multiple items, along with providing an alternate source for the cited Record article that I raised and thought was agreed to in Talk:New Jersey Route 24. On April 2, I thought that the Record source replacement could be made after I did not hear back from Dough4872 for 5 days after addressing his concerns and providing justification for the suggested changes on the Talk page on March 28.

So lets recap the positive aspects of my contributions. I provide multiple value added updates to Route 24 New Jersey. I followed Seb's advice to raise issues that I have about making a proposed change. I addressed the feedback provided to me on Talk:New Jersey Route 24, and made changes on April 2 based on what I thought had been properly resolved after waiting an appropriate time. Now let's address the unsubstantiated and biased charges against me:


 * Rschen7754 uses inflammatory biased language, which Wikipedia recommends not be used, when Rschen7754 falsely accuses me of having a "grudge" against a reporter, which is simply not substantiated by any facts. Since the original ANI notice, I have made dozens of updates, clarifications, and corrections to multiple articles that have not involved removing source material from the cited reporter.
 * Rschen7754 continues his biased accusations against me without any supporting evidence that "his only purpose here is to eliminate citations to a newspaper reporter's articles". The evidence clearly contradicts this statement since my contributions for a variety of articles clearly show I have made dozens of updates, clarifications, and corrections to multiple articles that have not involved removing source material from the cited reporter.
 * Rschen7754 seemed to be wrong when stating "he is changing the citation to refer to a WP:SPS, and thus threatening the GA status of that article." The reliability of nycroads (by Steve Anderson) and alpsroads (by Steve Alpert) as reliable sources based on WP:SPS was raised, resolved, and accepted by Wikipedia users in Talk:New Jersey Route 24 that I referenced for that article prior to adding what I thought was a reliable source from nycroads, which is currently in 100's of Wikipedia articles, and the author Steve Anderson is mentioned as an authoritative source in Robert Moses.
 * Rschen7754 has no clear evidence to support the contention that "Wondering55 should be indefinitely blocked per WP:NOTHERE". In fact, in the dozens of contributions I have made I have tried to demonstrate positive contributions that oppose every one of the self-interest and bad behavior traits identified in WP:NOTHERE. I try to treat everyone with respect when they treat me with respect and they provide substantiated facts without biased accusations.
 * Rschen7754 is simply wrong when falsely accusing me that "He continued the behavior after being warned." The facts clearly show I have NOT continued this behavior. My focus has been on making dozens of positive contributions. If I have had a question about a specific cited article I have raised it in a Talk page as I was asked to do and waited for what I thought was final resolution to allow me to make a specific change based on the facts and feedback.
 * Rschen7754 continues to demonstrate a bias and lack of respect in violation of Wikipedia policies when referring to my Talk page communications as "ramblings" instead of acknowledging my Talk page communications as an effort to address legitimate issues in good faith while presenting facts and reasons for my proposals.
 * Rschen7754 distorts the legitimacy of issues that I have raised by falsely dismissing "most of his talk page ramblings are basically "why did you undo my changes?". Most of my talk pages are NOT focused on why my changes were undone, but are instead focused on resolving any differences of opinion and trying to understand the other person's point of view when there is a contentious issue regarding changes made to a very few of the dozens of changes that I have made. In many cases, I have accepted the other person's feedback and allowed the change to be made or I have convinced the other party to accept my changes based on additional info that I have provided them, or we have made even better changes than each of our original revisions based on mutually agreed additional suggestions by both of us.

I believe I have been working in a very collaborative manner and have worked to not make contentious contributions and have not gone against previous advice, while also soliciting user feedback.

'''I have to say with full honesty that I definitely did heed the advice of Dennis Brown "for a desire to learn what the expectations are". I make no excuses and I have regularly checked out Wikipedia policies referenced by others in a variety of Talk pages that I have seen. I have worked to make sure that my integrity, behavior, and efforts for collaboration and resolution on a variety of issues have met Wikipedia policies and respect for others.'''

I hope this response has given everyone pause to reconsider my status and my dozens of positive contributions, which also includes collaborating with others.Wondering55 (talk) 19:33, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * So your new tactic is to attack the person who reported you to ANI, just as you did to Alansohn? Secondly, GA standards have gone up a lot since 2008; those SPS sources are no longer acceptable. Finally, all of your rambling comments above are a red herring - you have not addressed the fact that you are continuing the behavior (specifically removing links to reliable sources) that got you in trouble in the first place. --Rschen7754 19:44, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh my word. Wondering55, all administrators are going to think when reading your above rant is "tl;dr" You've got to be straight and to the point, otherwise you're not going to get anything done. If you really think Rschen's being disruptive, show us some diffs of it so we can judge for ourselves.  Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   19:56, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm somewhat invested here and would like to think I'm patient and thorough, but even I just skimmed this. I applaud your reading of policy, but it seems you have yet to understand the nuances in the spirit behind the policies, which is more important than the actual words.  You are still giving external reason for your shortcomings, which makes others less likely to consider your point of view, quite frankly.  This is why I suggested you pull back, perhaps be a bit deferential in your dealings with others, and maybe remember that you are the new one here, others are more familiar with the community norms.  Again, I don't doubt your sincerity, but I do question your ability to get along, and your compulsion to generate walls of text only make matters worse. Dennis Brown - 2¢  © Join WER 21:12, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

In order to make it as succinct as possible, dozens of my contributions, which anyone can check, have been focused on providing constructive value, updates, or corrections and have NOT been focused on removing sources from one reporter or removing reliable sources.

I should also not be cited for making a source replacement based on referencing Talk:New Jersey Route 24 that allowed the cited source and my replacement on April 2 based on what I thought was resolution from my March 28 comment for Talk:New Jersey Route 24.

Rschen7754 has been disruptive in NOT first addressing this issue with me prior to bringing it to this administrative board and in making personally denigrating comments and false claims without supporting facts. All of this is against Wikipedia policies.

The only one, who is personally attacking anyone is Rschen7754 with denigrating comments, along with even more extraneous issues and false claims that simply have nothing to do with the facts of this case. The only one guilty of a red herring is Rschen7754 due to a refusal to acknowledge that I have clearly addressed all of the facts that show I am NOT continuing the behavior that is claimed against me. I responded to each of the many, many, original false claims by Rschen7754 by presenting the facts and substantiated reasons that disputed these claims that were without merit.

It would not seem right that I could not provide a brief response with substantiated reasons and facts to dispute each of the 7 original false claims made by Rschen7754. It would not seem right that someone can also cite multiple Wikipedia policies against me and I can not respond to show I have not violated the policies based on the facts.

If Rschen7754 has any issue with including nycroads or alpsroads as being reliable sources, Rschen7754 should raise it on my Talk page or on his Talk page with me and provide more definitive sources to support that contention. I would be more than happy to listen since it does not need to take up the time of the administrators on this page.

I don't find the need to put up a wall of text if someone does not put up a wall of false claims and denigrating comments against me and my activities and then continues to repeat and add more false claims and denigrating comments in total disregard of the facts and substantiated reasons for my actions.

I have a great ability to get along with those who respect me, even if they may disagree with me.Wondering55 (talk) 22:13, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * But you have still not stopped your problematic behavior of removing all citations to a particular reporter. Furthermore, Imzadi1979 and Dough4872 have also agreed with me that the nycroads and alpsroads sources are problematic. --Rschen7754 22:21, 4 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Repeating something over and over does not make it any more true. The claim remains just as false as when it was originally made based on the facts that I have presented. I am also not clear why Rschen is wasting the time of the administrators and other on this Talk page regarding comments about nycroads and alpsroads sources since this issue has just been addressed and resolved to my satisfaction in Talk:New Jersey Route 24 in which Rschen7754 directly participated. I hope that Rshchen7754 is still not trying to make me look bad, while still NOT working with me. As the old saying goes, "You can try and lead a horse to water, you just can't make him work with you."Wondering55 (talk) 01:18, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wondering, what I am seeing is that frequently you make a change to a page, then go to the talk page, get extremely defensive, long winded, and if I do say so, rather abrasive in your tone. You're doing better than before, but you have a ways to go. We aren't here to debate articles, we discuss them.  None of us know it all, we need each other.  Often, I think I'm correct, but instead of pounding the other person, I try to calmly discuss and let them get around to figuring it out themselves.  Sometimes I will simply defer to other's opinions, even if I think they are mistaken, and go research it quietly, then discuss with them at a later date.  This is more productive than trying to battle out every little edit, and it makes others want to actually work with you, instead of feeling like every time you walk into the room, there is going to be a battle.  When I say you might try a little deference to others, this includes when you think you are right.  Slow down, research a bit, learn the system, and instead of barking in frustration, try "Hey, I was reading the policy on $x, it says $y, wouldn't that apply here?"  In other words, genuinely ask.  You might actually be right, and your tone dictates whether others are receptive to your ideas.  Or, you might be wrong, and they will gladly explain why if you are not so brazen in the asking. I'm afraid that if you don't pull back, and I mean pull back hard, you will be blocked for WP:TE and/or WP:DE before long.  Go slow, learn.  You learn by doing, not just by reading, and that means taking advice from others when it comes to editing even if you don't fully understand at the time. You have to trust your fellow editors a bit and rely on their experience. If you want to be here, you must stop making excuses, blaming others, and find a way to cooperate with them.  I've said enough.  At this point, what happens next is solely in your hands. Dennis Brown - 2¢  © Join WER 01:53, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Dennis, I'm not sure why you have been grossly misrepresenting my actions and my intentions in a such a negative fashion. You could have looked at all of my communications and edits and indicated that based on the facts Wondering55 makes constructive value added edits and frequently resolves issues amicably without any long winded responses. Anything can be taken out of context to try and prove a point. If people make denigrating comments, misrepresent my actions or revisions, or are abrasive to me, I direct myself to those issues. I am also not sure why you now piling on Wikipedia policies that are not relevant, unless you can verify those accusations. I certainly have NOT disrupted progress towards improving articles or building the encyclopedia or made partisan, biased or skewed edits. I have made dozens of constructive, neutral, value added edits and occasionally go to the Talk page to try and clarify an issue. I also defer to others, even when I disagree with them. If others respond in a dismissive or challenging manner or make unsubstantiated comments, I try to redirect them back to the facts. I also do not allow others to insult me without clearly telling them they are wrong.  I came to Wikipedia to make good faith efforts to work with people and improve articles in a neutral constructive manner based on the facts and Wikipedia policies. Can you work with me on that basis and recognize the positive in my contributions?Wondering55 (talk) 04:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * So basically "Wondering55 is always right and everyone else is wrong"? --Rschen7754 05:03, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If I'm honest, I would read Dennis' comments carefully yourself and consider how they might apply equally to your own behaviour as well as Wondering55 - a good recent example of which being your aggressive conduct at WP:DRN and subsequent attempt to take the project to WP:MFD . In retrospect, don't you think ignoring all that and taking a short break would have been better? Anyhow, it's all been dealt with so it's water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned. I apologise if I've got come across in an increasingly blunt and hot-headed manner about this recently, but you need to stop overreacting to criticism - nobody is "always right" and if you think you are - don't! In an attempt to close this thread down, I'm going to politely ask Wondering55 to drop this issue now, and for Rschen to consider being a little more tactful and empathic when dealing with new editors in future. Be cool, people.  Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   09:06, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it.  No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Keithstanton, once again


Keithstanton is back again, and is out on the same disruptive POV-crusade as before. Given this user's history, which consist of nothing but edit-warring and vandalism in areas covered by WP:ARBMAC, I'm surprised no action has yet been taken. I'd like to point out that many of his most obvious vandalism-edits have been to articles since deleted, so they don't show up in the edit history. Given that this user (whom many on ANI have suggest is a sock) is well aware of 1RR and openly abuses it and even taunts other users that they cannot deal with him because they are on 1RR, ,. I don't know about others, but I find a user who deliberately edit wars, to report those who disagree for 1RR  and then even taunts them about it to be abusing the system. In short:
 * Keithstanton is on Wikipedia with the only purpose of pushing a particular POV in articles related to the Balkans.
 * He does so without even trying to get any consensus.
 * He edit wars, and vandalizes articles.
 * He openly taunts people that he can edit war while they cannot since they are at 1RR.
 * Based on the above, the least I think should be done is to put Keithstanton on 1RR as well, though a topic ban on everything related to the Balkans would be a more proper solution as this is an obvious case of user who is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia.Jeppiz (talk) 10:14, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Totally agree with Jeppiz. Keithstanton has serious issues with understanding WP policy, and is in ARBMAC-land. Having been ARBMAC-warned, I believe a three month minimum topic ban is appropriate. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:18, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I should add that Keithstanton has already been blocked twice for his disruptive editing. Two blocks in less than 100 edits is rather revealing. He has been warned repeatedly by several admins both over his incivility and his disruptions.Jeppiz (talk) 10:26, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 1RR and/or an indefinite ARBMAC topic ban. He skirts the line on edit warring but basically has a trigger finger ready for anyone who is already on 1RR. Not to mention he has a habit of grave dancing, , even going so far as to (incompetently) deny an unblock request , taunting, personal attacks which I find highly distasteful. Blackmane (talk) 11:04, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * agree. I am not always on the same page as Evlekis, but we are one on this. He has lost the plot, this is not how we roll on WP. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:21, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * This editor either cannot understand, or deliberately fails to understand, how we work here, and why he cannot edit in the disruptive manner he does. Previous blocks have not worked, and I honestly doubt a topic ban would have any effect either. I would therefore propose an indefinite block. GiantSnowman 11:24, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * the egregious nature of his edits tends to make me lean in that direction, but I didn' t want to be seen to be leading the charge. No doubt, indef is appropriate. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:29, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Indef him ASAP - clearly NOTHERE, if they've been blocked twice in 100 edits, and they're still making such outrageous comments, they need to go. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 11:49, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

User:Anti-sock
This is a brand new account and has only made two edits, both of which were to accuse User:Ministar Nesigurnosti of being a sock of banned user User:Iaaasi. No SPI launched. The name of Anti-sock makes me suspicious and I'm not really inclined to AGF and am tempted to revert the edits and tell Minstar Nesigurnosti to ignore it. And to block Anti-sock as a disruption only account. Thoughts? NtheP (talk) 19:36, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * If anything, it sounds to me like Anti-sock is probably the sock. I would agree with your evaluation of the situation. Go   Phightins  !  19:46, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Anti-sock, and  are Stubes99. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 20:07, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

RHaworth's block of The Banner
I'm not sure if I should post this on AN or AN/I. I'm requesting a review of RHaworth's block of The Banner. Banner had been in a dispute with Stavros1. RHaworth made no effort to communicate to Banner why he was blocked, let alone mention any possible policy that could be applied. I am requesting a review of this block. If the block is overturned, I also request someone leave a word of caution to RHaworth to avoid making these kind of unexplained blocks in the future. 132.3.33.79 (talk) 20:05, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 26 Mar: Stavros told Banner that he was done with Wikipedia.
 * 5 Apr: Stavros left a message on RHaworth's talk page regarding articles Banner had tagged the week before.
 * 5 Apr: RHaworth blocks Banner for a week, leaving this message on Banner's talk page and no explaination in Banner's block log.
 * 5 Apr: RHaworth replies to Stavros with this inappropriate edit summary.
 * All three editors have been notified. 132.3.33.80 (talk) 20:11, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

DJ8946

 * This user have created some articles that were deleted by afd per non notability. Also, he created The Funkadacyls. Me and other user redirected the article to Brodus Clay. We explain some times that the article isn't notable, but we can redirect the article to Brodus Clay. He reverted a lot of articles, near to the war edition, delete my messages from his talk page (no archive). Also, he reported me as a vandal, when I tried to explain my contributions and why his editions are wrong. We have tried to explain to him how Wikipedia works, but he don't pay attention.--HHH Pedrigree (talk) 21:40, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I split this off from what appears to be an unrelated discussion. IRWolfie- (talk) 21:45, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It looks like Toddst1 initiated a discussion on the article's talk page. The fact that both of you reverted so many times without any penalties is staggering.  Start a dialogue, request outside opinions, take it to AFD; there are several options to explore.  Perhaps this is even a good time to re-examine what constitutes "notability" for a stand-alone article in the Professional Wrestling project. 68.200.150.22 (talk) 23:49, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Uninvolved admin needed to close a discussion please
Needed here. Please review the survey responses, state your finding of whether there is consensus to include the word "anti-immigration" (or any weaselly derivation thereof) in the "Agenda" section of the article mainspace, and make the edit in the article mainspace if appropriate. Thank you. (The article is under 1RR probation or I'd do it myself.) Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 22:07, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * it might be better to start with an RfC at the moment we have a straw poll initiated by P&W which does not have full engagement by all active editors on the page.  Oh and an ArmCom review in progress  Snowded  TALK 22:16, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * At this point, the survey is 6-4 opposed to use of that word, or any weaselly derivation thereof. Obtaining consensus in favor of using that word would require future "votes" to include at least five or six "supports" with zero "opposes." That just doesn't seem possible. And seriously, which active editors on the page haven't fully engaged in the survey yet? What you're doing is starting to resemble tendentious editing at this point. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 22:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Er, voting doesn't determine consensus, strength of arguments does. 6 opposes and 1 support is meaningless if the opposes don't have strong, policy-rooted reasoning. Your comment on needing more votes for consensus is just blatantly wrong, as it's definitely possible (and happens in AfDs all the time) where a lopsided !vote (not-vote) turns out the opposite of the vote count. Just saying. gwickwire  talk editing 22:41, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, the discussion has only been open for 2 days. It would probably be appropriate to leave it open for a longer period of time, to make sure all interested parties have a chance to contribute to it.  And, to echo gwickwire, consensus is not determined by counting votes, so a 6-4 vote doesn't automatically mean that the opposers "win".  <span style="font:small-caps 1.2em Garamond,Times,serif;color:#774477;letter-spacing:0.2em;">‑Scottywong <span style="font:0.75em Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;color:#772277;">| verbalize _  22:51, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Just an FYI, I don't think that Phoenix and Winslow was happy with this discussion, and is now forum shopping.04:16, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Altaic languages Warring
I encountered the Altaic languages article yesterday, and saw that it was written to present, as settled fact, what is in reality a controversial minority opinion in comparative linguistics today -- that Korean and Japanese are part of the Altaic family.

I rewrote the intro to give a neutral treatment of the subject -- with references -- and am now in an edit war with several of the editors responsible for the previous distorted content: User:Kwamikagami, User:CodeCat, User:Taivo.

Here are some standard, widely referenced, highly respected works which do not include Korean and Japanese in Altaic:


 * Ethnologue — http://www.ethnologue.com/family/17-15
 * The Languages of the World, 3rd Ed. 2002, by Kenneth Katzner, pp. 3, 18-19 — http://books.google.com/books?id=PxJrB_OKn04C
 * Oxford English Dictionary

Ironically, the biased article uses Ethnologue as its source for one fact (the number of Altaic languages). But then when I point out to Kwamikagami and CodeCat that Ethnologue does not include Korean and Japanese in Altaic, they say it's not a "reliable source".

I've repeatedly asked for what their reliable sources are — something that shows the current general opinion in the field of comparative linguistics, not just a particular scholar advancing his own theory. They refuse to answer this question (in Talk, or in their increasingly strange "undo" comments), and just keep stating that I can't alter the previous "consensus" on the article. They say the previous article doesn't need to be defended with references. I need to defend my changes. But my standard sources aren't good enough for them. And their "consensus" didn't even exist — we find an earlier visitor to the Talk page writing:

"I agree. In the academic world, Korean and Japonic are generally NOT included in this language family. The article is misleading. --Lysozym (talk) 05:48, 27 December 2012 (UTC)"

Here is our discussion in on the article Talk page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Altaic_languages#Correcting_Article_to_Reflect_Leading_View_of_Korean_and_Japanese_as_Only_Hypothetically_Part_of_Altaic

Here is the History-version of the biased state of the article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Altaic_languages&oldid=548931872

And what I'm trying to change it to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Altaic_languages&oldid=548943722

You will find my older Talk comments and edits not-signed-in, as IP 98.180.5.232 and IP 98.180.31.49. I have now created an account as User:AltaicNPOV.

I've messaged User:Kwamikagami, User:CodeCat, and User:Taivo with "subst:ANI-notice".

This is such an egregious example of editors using an article to promote a personal agenda, that I have to suggest that it would be in the interest of Wikipedia to block their accounts (and investigate all of their past edits).

Thank you for your help with this matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AltaicNPOV (talk • contribs) 05:06, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: I have added the signature for User: AltaicNPOV -- Cameron11598  (Converse) 05:48, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't pay much attention to the rants of the paranoid, and I don't give much time to people this rude, but since we's now here at ANI I'd better respond so my citizenship isn't revoked.
 * We've had several discussions about this. The current versions of the articles are a consensus compromise. I've reverted scores of edits to them, some insisting that they are all Altaic without question, and some insisting that Altaic not be mentioned at all. Our single-purpose account is of course welcome to start a discussion on changing the consensus (half of Altaic is valid and half is not), but they should get their way through convincing others, not by edit warring.
 * BTW, the "highly respected" sources are a joke. — kwami (talk) 05:57, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * "BTW, the 'highly respected' sources are a joke." Really? The OED is no longer an RS? The other two sources look respectable to me. Toccata quarta (talk) 06:02, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * If this were an argument over string theory, would you really accept the OED as a RS?
 * Yes, the other two are respectable. That doesn't make them good sources.
 * Anyway, this is a question over how to respond to having a BOLD edit reverted. — kwami (talk) 06:10, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Protected for a week because of edit-warring, and that's without looking at the latest revision; feel free to blame me for WP:WRONG, since I don't know which side's perspective is currently represented. If this were an argument over string theory, we wouldn't pay much attention to the OED, because it's a top-notch language publication without any physics specialists.  Since this is an argument over language, we pay attention to it because it's a top-notch language publication.  Meanwhile, I've seen the Ethnologue getting cited tons of times by articles on African languages; unless we have evidence that they're singularly confused on this subject, we should stop questioning them here or attempt to get them removed from the African language articles.  Katzner doesn't look the best, simply because it's written for non-specialists; it looks like an introduction.  However, I find the talk page quite bizarre: basically everyone is saying the page is unbalanced, except for Kwamikagami, whose responses are always "consensus is in favor of this position".  How can you have consensus at a specific talk page when almost everyone disagrees?  Meanwhile, I'm perplexed by the final section of the discussion page, at which one editor is bringing in additional sources and getting referred to WP:TRUTH in response.  In other words, "shut up; your sources don't even merit discussion".  The whole situation strikes me as a small group of editors deciding to impose their will on everyone else and doing it because everyone else either forgets about the issue or feels driven off.  Nyttend (talk) 07:19, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * FWIW, outside view, Nyttend not WP:WRONG, at least this time. Despite having studied this in learning languages on both sides of the supposed Altai tree I haven't edited this article. And I wouldn't go near it with a barge pole seeing this: 07:27, 5 April 2013‎ Kwamikagami (rv. BOLD violations; not worth my time to sift the wheat from the chaff). The problem here has snowballed but was initiated by a WP:OWN or indeed WP:OWN and not worth my time to condescend attitude from Kwami, which I've seen before on linguistics pages (Kolkata-Calcutta I recall) where a short fuse and lack of the awareness of limits of an editors own perspective leads to those kind of imperial edits and creates problems, then ends with 90% of edits being accepted because they reflect sources the editor didn't know. However.. freezing the page for a week won't hurt. Let them work it out on the Talk page. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Britannica doesn't include Japanese and Korean. The Concise Encyclopedia of Languages of the World states that the inclusion of those languages in the group is controversial.  Our article seems to be giving undue weight to that controversial point of view. Warden (talk) 08:47, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Dictionaries and encyclopedias are not RS for this unsettled question. Comparative linguistics is highly speculative, being largely based on statistical comparisons as opposed to historical data. Even where similarities characterized as "typological" (i.e., syntactic) are recognized, lending credibility to a possible connection, if phonological and semantic correlaries are scant, some will discount any connection outright.
 * Oftentimes positions on this are politically motivated. Nationalists in various countries see any drawing of a connection as a dilution of their pedigree or a threat to their independence, for example.
 * In the future this topic will become more interdisciplinary. For example, I believe that there is little debate among archaeologists and anthropologists regarding the influx of Tungusic peoples into the northern part of the Korean peninsula. That would seem to provide ample room for a linguisitic connection on some level.-- Ubikwit   連絡見学/迷惑 09:40, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Maker Studios


Persistent edit warring, most recently removal of talk page comments by 76 account, and continued editing on article after receiving 3rr warning (waited for just over 24 hours to do so); this could just as well go to edit warring or page protection boards, but this is a longterm issue involving an experienced single purpose user with an apparent conflict of interest and a strong sense of article ownership. It seems clear that these two accounts are related, if not puppets. Disclosure: I've been involved at this page as two 99 IPs in the last few weeks, and opened a thread at BLP noticeboard last month. 99.0.83.243 (talk) 03:26, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * IP attempted to remove this section, reverted and warned. gwickwire  talk editing 23:06, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I blocked the registered account for 2 weeks and the IP for 3 months. Comparing their edits, the evidence was overwhelming. The IP is supposedly dynamic, so I'm not sure how much good it will do. If necessary, I will semi-protect the two articles (the other article is Ray William Johnson).--Bbb23 (talk) 03:57, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

User:Pks1142


This has been going on for a long time now, and after innumerable tries to deal with calmly, User:Pks1142 has crossed all limits. It all began with the editing of Priyanka Chopra's page, an article that failed a recent FAC due to huge amount of fancruft that has been added by this particular user. When I tried to bring a semblance of sanity to the lead. this is how he responded: [] and []. Also have a look at Talk:Priyanka Chopra (all the sections) and the way this user has been creating problems with everyone who is trying to help. Other editors trying to sort the issue on his talk page also did not help, as he started attacking other users too (see User talk:Smarojit too). -- smaro jit  <sup style="color:green;">(buzz me)  05:16, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you, You have a nice thought of interpreting things and come up with a different story. I was behaving in that way because you are showing bias in the biographical page of chopra. No one asked him to improve it, See his first edit on the talk page of Chopra Talk:Priyanka Chopra  and his concern was over a line which says "She was noted for her versatility...."He reflected that we were turning the article as articles bouquet not thorns. Then, he himself came with a new lead completely opposite of the original. Then I told him not to change, because I added that stuff after long discussion with My co-editor Bollyjeff and Dwaipayan (who said he liked my new version). Suddenly, Smarojit changed the lead and started reverting my edit. I told him that he doesn't own the article and he said "I will revert your every edit". Meanwhile, the other editor (with whom I maintained a distance, as they want their credit in the article, which I never denied) were started adding fuel to the heated argument, you can see here User talk:Smarojit. I reflected him not to do that (I also suspect of Gleeks having another account), as it will only stretch the discussion. I have contributed much to the article. The article failed its first fac, not because of fancruft, but of fragmentry style see here, The candidate failed because of fragmentry style not for fancruftry But, the user has interpreted it differently to tell a new story. I'm sorry for my anger, but the user wants me to leave the article for him. I requested him to reflect on first fac, but he didn't and now he is telling a new story. He is a bias as well, he considers an actress a "female hero" and praises her to sky but here he goes saying "sex symbol". This shows his biasness. He used the word sex symbol after one source but, another source said she acts like a hero, did he included no. Playing favorites might be the reason. Please, I request you to tell him not to kill my mind. I have injured myself and will not interfere with his any edit. Prashant   talk  05:45, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Dear Adminstrators: Well he has requested many of his friend to support him and I don't have any support in my favour. I'm not here to make any friends and take benefit of that. I'm here to edit and I had contributed to many articles and will always. I gave my blood and sweat to the article, but now, no one will see my hard work because of the above user. I'm feeling beaten, scolded and punished by doing good job to the article. I'm killing my self as why i came here to edit. Well, I have nothing to say nor have any support but, i have truth and my hard work to support me, but will anyone notice that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pks1142 (talk • contribs) 05:59, 5 April 2013
 * A small piece at the end of the above comment was removed by the WMF after a report, the rest of the comment was left so as to allow continued discussion Jalexander--WMF 06:35, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The reported user (Pks1142) has many good contributions to his credit; however, in this particular instance, was not agreeing to the good faith changes that Smarojit brought to the article in question, despite multiple explanations, requests, and telling that the article is in a manufacturing phase, and has not attained a stable phase yet. Discussions were on way in the talk page of the article, but frequently disrupted by rather childish behavior of Pks. I understand Pks also acted on his good faith, but his repetitive reverts on the article and inflammatory comments in the talk page were creating hindrance. I hoped with time things will calm down, but it did not. We definitely did not want to bring this to ANI, but could not find any other way. I feel what would be beneficial for the article and the editors is if Pks refrains from editing in the article and its talk page for a few days. Let the article develop, and then he is welcome to comment for further improvement. --Dwaipayan (talk) 18:32, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I have cleared everything and I think it's all well. Also, I tried to pass the olive branch but, he is not keen to accept it. However, co-editors on the article have helped us solving our differences. I'm ok with that user and he should also remember and accept it. It was just because of the stretched discussion and I'm apologetic to everyone. Prashant  talk  00:45, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Editor has apologized. Nothing to see or gain by taking action here. An admin please close this as soon as you can.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  12:25, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeoberry

 * (see also IP edits and )
 * And probably others that have been miseed
 * User Yeoberry notified of this AN/I discussion here.
 * And probably others that have been miseed
 * User Yeoberry notified of this AN/I discussion here.
 * And probably others that have been miseed
 * User Yeoberry notified of this AN/I discussion here.
 * And probably others that have been miseed
 * User Yeoberry notified of this AN/I discussion here.
 * And probably others that have been miseed
 * User Yeoberry notified of this AN/I discussion here.
 * And probably others that have been miseed
 * User Yeoberry notified of this AN/I discussion here.
 * And probably others that have been miseed
 * User Yeoberry notified of this AN/I discussion here.

User: Yeoberry has been engaged in a long-term edit war stretching back to August 2012 over the inclusion of the views of John B. Carpenter across a wide swath of articles. Discussions at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Eastern_Orthodoxy back in August, and just recently WP:RSN and WP:COIN reached community consensus that (i) this is a matter of self-promotion by an editor across numerous Wikipedia articles and (ii) Carpenter is not a reliable source for the purposes proposed in those articles. Nevertheless, Yeoberry has persistently re-inserted the deleted material, even after such consensus was reached. He has been warned numerous times, and has been the subject of a prior discussion of the same material at and has deleted the warnings without discussion or response. After those warnings, he has persisted in re-inserting the material. (He's actually at 3RR right now at Iconoclasm) He has previously been blocked for edit warring over an unrelated topic area. This persistent, and defiant disruption and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT attitude needs to be curbed. In the short term, a lengthy block is in order. In the longer, term a topic ban prohibiting Yeoberry from inserting material from Mr. Carpenter across Wikipedia articles is probably in order as well, as this appears to be a problem that will not go away absent sanctions of this kind. Fladrif (talk) 15:48, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The article I (yeoberry) reported on is an academic article, in a peer-reviewed journal (edited by notable scholars), and certainly relevant to pages on "iconoclasm", icons, etc. While the paragraph may could profit from some editing, Fladrif has deleted the paragraph without discussion and ignored comments in the talk page.
 * Fladrif suggestion that wikipedia ban scholars from commenting on their area of specialization is absurd.174.53.88.54 (talk) 16:04, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No it is not. Your paper has no academic or theological value. As we explained in detail to you multiple times, and in multiple fora, Google Scholar does not even detect the paper. It is useless. In addition you refuse to understand that you have a WP:COI and you are edit-warring to add your non-notable work across many articles. Now you are using the IP to avoid scrutiny and continue the longterm edit-warring of your main account across multiple articles. Δρ.Κ. <sup style="position:relative">λόγος<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πράξις  16:36, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Where the consensus is clear that this is a COI case of an editor adding his non-notable paper across many articles using longterm edit-warring and personal attacks. Δρ.Κ. <sup style="position:relative">λόγος<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πράξις  16:36, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Please see also relevant discussions at
 * Multiple religious articles related to Eastern Orthodoxy (WP:COIN)
 * Journal of the International Society of Christian Apologetics (WP:RSN)


 * I haven't read the article but everything suggests that it is an apologia for a Protestant iconoclastic position and does not represent a position held across the field. I note for instance references to the Synod of Elvira, whose canons have been a subject of debate since the Reformation. Carpenter's paper could be presented, I suppose, as an exemplar of a certain position, but his conclusions do not enjoy, shall we say, catholic acceptance. It is also freshly published and thus certainly subject to criticism as an untested contribution to scholarship. Yeoberry's rock-headed resistance to anything except reception of the paper as an indisputable authority has wasted a great deal of time for all involved. I have to think that, if nothing else, he could find other Protestant apologists with more of a track record to express the same positions, again noting that it a position and not the consensus of the field. Mangoe (talk) 16:40, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Besides the fact that Yeoberry (editing now as an IP for some reason) has ignored RSN, edit-warring to keep material in where the editor has a clear COI is unacceptable. That Yeoberry has a major COI in regard to Carpenter is IMHO indisputable - he hasn't denied it and the evidence at COIN makes it explicit. Despite discussions at COIN, RNS, article and project talk pages he continues to do as he has done since he created a new deleted article on Carpenter in 2007, push Carpenter's ideas wherever he can (a list is at COIN). Given his insistence that he is right some sort of sanction, preferably something like a ban on using material based on Carpenter's work, seems required. Dougweller (talk) 16:47, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

And the response of Yeoberry on their talk, includes the following appraisal of Wikipedia: with edit summary: 174.53.88.54 Epiphanius Letter 51 discussed in a footnote; wikipedia is an "idiocracy". An example of the uncooperative mentality of this editor. Δρ.Κ. <sup style="position:relative">λόγος<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πράξις  16:49, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeoberry is a long-time POV-pushing editor with a serious COI concerning Dr. John B. Carpenter and the local church he is the pastor of. Articles he created on those topics have been deleted at AfD over Yeoberry's vociferous objections. Discussion at RSN determined that the source Yeoberry is inserting is not reliable, not' peer-reviewed, and not notable, yet Yeoberry continues in his campaign to insert the POV he favors into these articles using this unreliable source. History indicates that Yeoberry will continue to actively press this campaign, despite the reasonable policy-based objections raised by multiple editors in multiple places, and will not stop until he is blocked. A topic ban seems quite reasonable, considering the ongoing behavior and clear agenda of this editor. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:55, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Since Yeoberry is so determined to impose his personal views across a wide set of articles I believe he has passed all the reasonable thresholds for taking admin action. I recommend an indefinite block, to be followed if necessary by an unblock discussion in which he will hopefully agree to follow our policies. EdJohnston (talk) 17:28, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * He has also developed a penchant of attacking other editors through use of edit-summaries. Here he accuses Doug Weller of stalking both in the edit-summary and the text: Revision as of 19:26, 4 April 2013 Yeoberry with edit summary: (answer to false accusations of "edit warring" and Doug Weller's stalking). He takes Doug's sage advice and guidance as "stalking". This is unacceptable. Δρ.Κ. <sup style="position:relative">λόγος<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πράξις  19:09, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I suggest an immediate topic ban for Yeoberry on the work of John Carpenter and Eastern Orthodoxy with a stong warning that continuing this sort of behavior anywhere on WP will result in an indefinite block. Lady  of  Shalott  19:19, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Has the editor ever edited constructively anywhere else? It looks like the account is trying to POV push elsewhere, like this edit warring at Southern Poverty Law Center last month (as highlighted by the initial post): . A limited topic ban won't prevent that disruption, IRWolfie- (talk) 19:42, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think he understands what he is doing. On top of the personal attacks he said (please see above): answer to false accusations of "edit warring". That's the only thing he has been doing even as an IP, yet he does not accept doing it. This is unbelievable. Δρ.Κ. <sup style="position:relative">λόγος<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πράξις  19:54, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeoberry is neither stupid nor uneducated, and he understands exactly what he is doing and is doing it deliberately. The short answer to IRWolfie's question is, "No." Looking at his edit history (I have had no involvement personally with the editor until a RSN question was posed a couple of days ago) it appears that Yeoberry has never edited at any article at Wikipedia where he has not (i) used Wikipedia to push his POV and (ii) if questioned about his edits, has done anything other than edit-war, engage in personal attacks, and adamantly refuse to work collaboratively with other editors. Fladrif (talk) 01:35, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * This morning at COIN, I stated that the editor was very clearly NOTHERE and was blatantly engaged in self-promotion and POV pushing across multiple articles, and that a more diplomatic editor than myself should try to explain to him the nature of the project and what is, and is not, allowed here. St. Anselm was kind enough to oblige. However, I was dismayed that the editor simply deleted St. Anselm's overtures without comment, and continued to edit-war, still insisting against consensus that his source was reliable, and accusing those opposed to his additions of being part of and "idiocracy". It is indeed probable that the editor genuinely does not understand the nature of the project and of his transgression.


 * However, because of his IDIDNTHEARTHAT attitude, his combativeness, his disregard or even disdain for consensus and policies, and his continued edit-warring and self-promotion, it is highly unlikely that anything other than an indefinite ban will get through to him. If he can convince an adminitrator that he understands the nature of the project, and promises that he will no longer engage in self-promotion, POV pushing or using WP as an extension of his pastor's pulpit, he can be unblocked, preferably with a requirement that he be mentored. Without such reassurances, however, the editor is a detriment to the project.


 * If there were any other way of obtaining such assurances without an indefinite block, I would be all for it, but in light of his behavior today, I cannot say that I am at all optimistic. He hasn't provided any indication that he intends to use WP for anything but promotion of himself, his intimates, and his own religious beliefs. That's a shame, because he probably does have a high level of familiarity with religious scholarship, which could be useful to the project. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:24, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: The material added is from different articles - this edit is relevant, and from a reputable journal. But it's a COI edit, and adding it seemed to me to be WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE, so I removed it. I would support the removal of all John B. Carpenter references, and a topic ban for Yeoberry on John B. Carpenter. I have no opinion about a topic ban on Eastern Orthodoxy. StAnselm (talk) 20:32, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've had some unpleasant encounters with Yeoberry and have found his edits to be problematic. For example, making accusations of bias at Family Research Institute and editing against consensus at List of organizations designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as anti-gay hate groups and Southern Poverty Law Center. His edit warring at all of these articles resulted in a block. He also made some sharp accusations on my talk page . He also made a borderline personal attach at the Family Research Institute talk page: "That you seriously used "The Advocate" as a source suggest you are deeply emotionally invested in a particular POV.".


 * The pattern seems be that he tries to shape articles to his preferred POV, argues against consensus, edit wars against consensus and violates WP:NPA. The COI is also a concern, suggesting that he is probably NOTHERE to help build an encyclopedia. I would be opposed to a the limited topic bans that have been proposed, and would favor something broader and more likely to have a lasting effect. - MrX 21:00, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * In his pattern of personal attacks it is also clear that he tries to subdue the spirit of his perceived opponents. He checked my userboxes and other information which I have on my userpages, gave me a spurious tit-for-tat 3RR warning, and told me: Given your images and symbols here, there may be a COI on your part.. In other words, due solely to my userpage identifiers he divined that I have an automatic COI. This is an unfair personal attack which is based only on my pictures and userboxes. Δρ.Κ. <sup style="position:relative">λόγος<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πράξις  21:12, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Now he is harassing LoveMonkey based on his religion: Now I Understand So, you're Eastern Orthodox and are using your position as a wikipedia editor to suppress historical evidence that may make your religious institution look bad. It makes sense now. Now, that's a real "COI". In the future, just be upfront about that.User talk:Yeoberry 04:58, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: Topic Ban
Per LoS and StAnselm, I propose an immediate topic ban on anything related to John B. Carpenter, broadly construed with a 1RR provision in articles he has established himself. Alles Klar, Herr Kommisar  23:52, 5 April 2013 (UTC) WIthdrawn in favor of indef. Alles Klar, Herr Kommisar  03:03, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Broadly construed", I assume? Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The topic ban should have a provision of 1RR in any article given that he has established himself as a longterm and prolific edit-warrior across many articles who uses also an IP to evade scrutiny. Δρ.Κ. <sup style="position:relative">λόγος<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πράξις   00:19, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Given these f*ck you posts today from Yeoberry at WP:COIN and another editor's talkpage, it is clear that Yeoberry is far too intelligent, erudite and educated to be forced to muck around in the ignorance and stupidity of mere mortal Wikipedia editors. It would be a service to both him and us to sever the link permanantly. A topic ban will not suffice. An indefinite block, after which, if he deigns to grace us with reasons why his erudition should be shared with we peons, and he might then be allowed to soil his shoes walking among the unwashed heathens of Wikipedia, is the only reasonable solution. Fladrif (talk) 01:13, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Scratch that. I'd go back to indef. This person is WP:NOTHERE to cooperate with other editors. See his harassment of LoveMonkey for which I added a report just above. Δρ.Κ. <sup style="position:relative">λόγος<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πράξις  01:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: Indefinite Block
This user is NOTHERE to collaborate on building an encyclopedia, so blocking him until he can convince the community that he understands the purpose and goals of the project, and can work harmoniously with others, would be in everyone's best interest.


 * Support as nominator. - MrX 01:36, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Anyone who harasses other users based on their religion is WP:NOTHERE to build anything. His disruption is relentless, uncommunicative, unresponsive, unapologetic, aggressive, and damaging to the encyclopedia. Δρ.Κ. <sup style="position:relative">λόγος<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">πράξις   01:45, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per POV, NPA, NOTHERE, IDHT. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:04, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per NOTHERE most of all, with too much NPA and POV thrown in. Binksternet (talk) 02:19, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support (assuming non-admins are allowed to "vote" here) for all of the above reasons, compounded as Yeoberry keeps digging a deeper and deeper hole with every post. Fladrif (talk)
 * Support because it is clear this editor is here to promote the viewpoint of a single author, rather than to help build a neutral encyclopedia. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:34, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I had hoped a topic ban would be sufficient, but in light of the further developments today, I have to move to support an indefinite block. Religious harassment of other editors is not acceptable behavior. Lady  of  Shalott  02:49, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Yeoberrie's disruptive behavior has evidently escalated far beyond the sanctions of a topic ban. Proposal withdrawn. Alles Klar, Herr Kommisar  03:03, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - It's unlikely this editor has any interest in following our policies. Negotiation would be fruitless. EdJohnston (talk) 03:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support per Beyond My Ken and Someguy1221's reasonings. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:47, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Per above. — ΛΧΣ  21  03:53, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Claiming that others have a COI because of their religion while not accepting that he has a COI is unacceptable and insulting (it's also foolish, does he really think we are that stupid that we don't know he has a COI?}. He's a COI edit-warrior with disdain for what other editors have told him, and as EdJohnston has said, negotiation would be fruitless. The fact that he's managed to get so many editors wanting to block him speaks for itself.Dougweller (talk) 04:56, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:SNOW ✅ reference — Ched : ?  06:25, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Bullying and ownership concerns at Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach and Sparrow Mass over the use of infoboxes
I have never filed an ANI complaint previous to this in over five years and 50k edits, and I am sorry to have to do so now, regarding established editor conduct towards editors new to an article and on the broader topic of infoboxes and classical music composers and compositions.

On March 30 I stopped by Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach after noticing some changes on my watchlist there. I have never edited content at the Bach article to my knowledge aside from possibly some vandal reversion, and have absolutely no history with any of the editors at the Bach article. While there, I contributed a !vote on an issue being discussed, the proposed addition of an infobox to the article. I voted for inclusion, but is important to note at this point that the content of the article is not why I am here.

The reasoning behind my !vote was frank and straightforward, but hardly uncivil, in my own view. To my astonishment, User:Ceoil replied to my first-time Talk page comment with a "Fuck You" response either directed at me, or interpreting my comment that way, which either way is highly inappropriate. Ceoil has a long record of previous incivility etc. that has resulted in 11 blocks, from which he has seemingly learned nothing.


 * I suggest a substantial block for Ceoil on the basis of this f-word diff, which, especially directed to a first-time editor at an article, is extremely uncivil and unwelcoming, and obviously designed to have a chilling effect. The infobox proposal was also the subject of a directed canvassing notice - by Ceoil. This results in a slanted group of commentators.

Looking at the current Bach Talk page, I notice a polite suggestion from User:Gerda Arendt on March 21 to be the cause of concern from about a dozen editors. As I say, I am not disputing content in this report, but the way the simple request for an infobox was dealt with... what can only be termed needless hostility, including a comment by User:Kleinzach, in which he inappropriately he questions the good faith of the proposal itself and by extension, the proposer.


 * I suggest a strong administrator warning for Kleinzach on the basis of this diff - which again, in my view, is clearly designed to have a chilling effect.

Further reading the Bach talk page reveals at least one editor, User:GFHandel recently resigned in protest over the infobox issue and specific and arguably tendentious claims that the infoboxes are "difficult for women to edit", presumably after years of fruitless discussion with the aforementioned relatively small clique, and the resignation by GF Handel I can only take as another red flag. A few days ago I made a strong warning statement at the bottom of the Bach talk page regarding Ceoil calling editors that want userboxes "special interests" that has gone unanswered; it seems no one on the anti-infobox faction were untroubled by Ceoil and my reaction.

Another page that has serious current infobox issues is Sparrow Mass where I notice a violation a few days ago of WP:3RR by an administrator, User:Nikkimaria, who actually removed the offending infobox via a misleading edit summary called "cleanup." This plus three additional reverts resulted in a 24 hour block, the notice of which was scrubbed twice by the admin Nikkimaria to eliminate any trace of unpleasantry. I'd call this type of edit warring by an administrator highly unacceptable, and the edit summary and removal of notices lacking in transparency, which are crucial traits in an admin; Nikkimaria was also following Gerda Arendt and deleting infoboxes.


 * I suggest that administrator Nikkimaria needs at the very least a serious warning, with possibly additional sanctions to make Wikipedia's basic policy clear and prevent further intimidation and process abuse, with any further examples cause for a desysop discussion. (As for the Sparrow Mass article, it had to be fully protected to stop the edit war, but has since been unprotected and has been quiet for the last 24 hours as of this posting.)

Historically, infobox opponents have tried to stifle opponents. The template for the infobox itself at Template:Infobox classical composer has been the subject of multiple attempts at deletion, with the last being closed as a bad faith nomination. Clearly User:Antandrus, the recipient of the bad faith closure and awarning to stop keep trying to delete the template doesn't want an open discussion as he advises the need to keep the infobox topic off discussion boards. This is sneaky battleground mentality, as I see it, and another example of a systemic problem on the infobox topic. Strike through with apologies to Antandrus, I got this backwards, as he was not the recipient of the bad faith closure.

To conclude, clearly there are editors and at least one admin that don't want infoboxes in classical composer articles, and said opponents are using methods that are, at best, irregular and questionable. In my view, these methods call for the admin community to investigate further. And really, all this over infoboxes! The topic of music composers, some of the finest examples of humanity, should be a pleasant place to edit, not a battleground that drives away those with opinions different from an established clique. Jus da  fax   04:55, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * For the record, you still need to inform Nikkimaria and Kleinzach of this thread. That being said...
 * I think Ceoil needs a NPA/AGF warning;
 * I think Kleinzach needs to AGF a bit more (but as that edit was more than a week ago, not necessarily actionable by itself now);
 * There is nothing currently that prevents an editor from removing any notices unless it's an active block notice - and the block had expired by the time that Nikkimaria removed it, so that edit is okay on that front. - Penwhale &#124; dance in the air and follow his steps 05:14, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I have informed the parties you mention. Remedial efforts aside, you fail to address the larger pattern of the systemic abuse I have documented. Jus  da  fax   05:36, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Jusdafax, you have accused people of bullying. I read your entire post, but I saw nothing about that there; the issue regarding User:Ceoil is one of WP:CIV. Accusing people of bullying is a bold accusation, and even though I already challenged you to defend it here, you have not done so, and now are repeating that claim. Toccata quarta (talk) 05:45, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Our posts crossed, and I have moved the discussion here from the Bach page, by notification. Perhaps your definition of the word "bullying" is different from mine. I look forward to other voices than anti-infobox clique found on the Bach Talk page to give their views on the tone found there, including yours. Jus  da  fax   05:54, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "My tone"? My tone was one of opposing the infobox, in posts devoid of uncivil or vulgar language. Once again: diffs, please? Toccata quarta (talk) 06:13, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In my view, the diffs I have supplied (which I notice you do not discuss) are indicative of problems. In regards to your tone, calling an infobox "useless" is worthy of comment for starters. And one can be "devoid of uncivil or vulgar language" and still be uncivil in intent, as your repeated use of bolding in your "requests" which come off as demands. I again point out that the point of bringing this matter to ANI was to get input from the wider community, not to have the conversation dominated by intractable infobox opponents, which is how I would define your demonstrated inflexible opposition. Jus  da  fax   07:11, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have never thought of the word "useless" as uncivil (unless it is used to describe another editor), and I'm unaware of an euphemism for it, except for perhaps "it would serve no purpose". As for bolding, you have made bold accusations; ones which I do not take lightly. Toccata quarta (talk) 08:07, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Jusdafax, please note that contrary to your assertion, Antandrus did not nominate that infobox for deletion. It was nominated by Pigsonthewing, and it was the second time he had attempted to get it deleted. Pigsonthewing received the "warning" about repeated attempts at deletion, and the bad faith nomination (rightly or wrongly). Antandrus !voted to keep it. I suggest you strike your accusation above. Voceditenore (talk) 06:01, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Quite right, I managed to get it reversed, which shows if nothing else that I am unfamiliar with this entrenched infobox battleground. My apologies to Antandrus; I'll do some strikethroughs. However, I now see that it is even more complicated than I previously thought... this template was another battleground and was never seriously used, as far as I now can tell. Antandrus' comment about keeping the matter off talk boards is still telling, in my view. I have notified Pigsonthewing about this discussion. Jus  da  fax   06:20, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Telling" to you because you chose to interpret his comment as a conspiracy to keep the discussion off the notice boards. He was absolutely right in his assessment, things do turn nasty very fast. Incidentally, the issue referred to there was then discussed at the Village Pump . Voceditenore (talk) 06:42, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Conspiracy" is your word, not mine. I am here to ask for wider editor comment and admin scrutiny, which you will hopefully welcome. Jus  da  fax   07:22, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have also notified Antandrus of this discussion, which you failed to do. Voceditenore (talk) 06:13, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have been editing non-stop for a couple hours, and had not yet notified Antandrus. Jus  da  fax   06:42, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Another question, Jusdafax: you claim that there issues of WP:OWN going on at Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach, but all I see there is a discussion among editors. Where's the breach of WP:OWN? Toccata quarta (talk) 06:24, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Let's make it plain to the community, Toccata quarta, that you are a staunch opponent of the infoboxes, as the Bach Talk page clearly shows. What would you call the way I was greeted with an F-word... friendly? Now, the reason I brought this to ANI is to get some other views to this discussion. Let's let others be the judge of what's going on at that Talk page, shall we? Jus  da  fax   06:39, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:OWN comes into play with comments like "not usually associated with composer articles"; "has never edited the article... like X", as though there was some requirement to edit a page (now much? how often?) before expressing an opinion on its talk page; and "contra WP:COMPOSERS policy" (my emphasis) as though that opinion page had any authority, which WP:Advice pages makes clear it does not. Likewise in the HTML comment at the head of the Bach article, which read "Please do not add an infobox, per Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers#Biographical infoboxes" (again, my emphasis). Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:11, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment by Gerda Arendt, involved, surprised
 * I suggested an infobox for Bach, knowing that Project Classical music asks to have no infoboxes for composers. It was discussed, supported by some users, not supported by several others, I moved on, suggesting a much shorter infobox for Handel.
 * I installed an infobox for Sparrow Mass, knowing that there is no such restriction (or how should I call it?) for compostions. It was reverted, see history, in a pattern that can be seen also at Peter Planyavsky and Membra Jesu Nostri. In the latter case, I received a discussion about the content of the box on the talk which I found helpful, and I made changes. A good way forward: I believe that discussion is better than reverting and edit war, and I respect the involved editors, see? Happy Easter. (In Leipzig at Bach's time, they celebrated Easter for three days.)
 * ps: this is the first time that I am an involved party on this page, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:28, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * ps II: I miss GFHandel and said so. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:32, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks Gerda, but again, what I am attempting to do is get some outside views of the way a new editor to a page and community, like myself, is being dealt with when they contradict orthodox editing. This is not about infoboxes, it is about the way opponents of infoboxes are acting. It has the effect of driving editors away, in my view, and in some cases investigation and correctional measures may well be needed. I am a totally uninvolved editor, so I saw bringing this to ANI as a moral duty. Your proposal was termed "bad faith" by Kleinzach, which I find unacceptable, and I seek comment and action on that here. Only one editor on the Bach Talk page, a supporter of your proposal, saw fit to speak up against this serious abuse before I did, which got my attention. It may not bother you, but what of someone new to Wikipedia? Really, what kind of editing environment exists at classical music articles? I submit there is room for improvement, based on my statement above. Jus  da  fax   08:03, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Jusdafax:
 * Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach doesn't show that I'm "a staunch opponent of the infoboxes". For a start, I'm one of the main editors of the article Magnus Carlsen, but I have never complained about the infobox there (or removed it). Like many other editors at the Bach talk page, I'm opposed to some infoboxes because of the reasons listed at WP:COMPOSERS. That's why I have no problem with geographical infoboxes, for instance.
 * I have already commented on the F-word issue by saying that it has to do with WP:CIV.
 * None of what you wrote has to do with WP:OWN. Toccata quarta (talk) 08:07, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment (I saw the discussion but didn't post). I note that Douay–Rheims Bible, Rennet, Structural engineering and Captain Midnight are lacking infoboxes also. The reason I mention this is that Jusdafax, your comment "This one will have one too, sooner or later" was the kind of comment that - while not deserving the uncouth terms of the "F" response you got, was still not exactly going to win classical music editors to your cause. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:39, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As an eventualist, the comment I made stands, but it did not deserve the F-word, and when the person hurling it has been blocked 11 times, I'd say there is a problem. Jus  da  fax   08:03, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you're missing the point. "In other words, I discount your argument, becuase I cant, and dont want to, understand it. And f.. you anyway. is how your comment sounded to Ceoil hence his next sentence "sooner or later" is the under current most of the supporters are hinting at, nice that you are so explicit." - he's saying you were in effect saying F. you to others. Yes he deserves a WP:CIVILITY warning. But to be honest even your comment here above "As an eventualist, the comment I made stands" might be worthy of a small baby trout. Do you not see that "This one will have one too, sooner or later" is not a conciliatory or communicative reason? In ictu oculi (talk) 11:10, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment - Uninvolved user here. I'm generally pro-infobox, but don't understand why people get so heated over one. The comment by Ceoil is absolutely unacceptable, and should result in a heavy sanction, given their history in this area (yes, their last block was January 2012, but for such an out of proportion attack, with the user having 4 blocks for personal attacks since whatever discussion overturned the earliest ones in 2008, a block is needed, and a NPA warning is utterly pointless). The second user needs a AGF/NPA warning, but probably little more, based on the evidence here. Nikkimaria has already been dealt with for edit warring, so there's nothing for anyone to do there. Luke no 94  (tell Luke off here) 08:10, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It is so heated because it became a personal thing which went on for years, 2005 has been mentioned. I am new to the topic, so not yet tired. How do we get to content? For example discuss the content for an infobox Bach, rather than yes or no? Bach is a vital article and deserves one, if you ask me ;) - I generally assume good faith and am speechless when I am not trusted, - thanks to those speaking for me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:39, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment These discussions on infoboxes are rarely useful and can generate extraordinary responses.  The discussions also divert attention from the difficulty in actually producing reasonable content on classical music, which can be a slow process.  Mathsci (talk) 08:54, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Looks like a forum shopping expedition to me."What I am attempting to do is get some outside views of the way a new editor to a page and community, like myself, is being dealt with when they contradict orthodox editing." This doesn't sound like the same person who wrote: "Infoboxes are standard components to most Wikipedia articles. This one will have one too, sooner or later." Infoboxes "contradict orthodox editing" yet they are standard and every article must have one. Hmm. --Folantin (talk) 12:06, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I didn't see "bullying" per the thread title; I did see one intemperate comment from Ceoil from a few days ago. I've asked him to cool his jets. It'd be great if folk could refrain from getting so heated over fairly minor issues like this one and use the normal channels of DR rather than coming here. --John (talk) 13:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The Bach page is just one example. There's a lot of bullying and it consistently happens (Talk:Robert Stoepel is another recent case). And most of those opposed to infoboxes will consistently bring up that there's no rule for or against them, and that the guideline against them for classical music articles is just a guideline and should be taken on an individual basis....yet if someone puts in a box in good faith it'll be reverted -- here is a good example. "format per WP:Classical music" as an edit summary? Seriously? Not to mention as far as arguments in the talk pages we have this little gem. I'd give a lot more but at this point I've really stopped wanting to waste so much energy on it. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 14:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * One wonders where bringing WikiProject Biography to bear on these controversies would force a different outcome. Mangoe (talk) 14:18, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * [ec]One? Perhaps you missed this: ? Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: I think this ANI is well-taken, I see bullying occurring here quite clearly.  I have not been involved at all in either of these two articles, but I have noticed that the anti-infobox "consensus"  of these particular wikiprojects is rather odd and in conflict with most of the uses of infobocx person and its variants across wikipedia.  As there is a good-faith discussion of whether that consensus SHOULD change, personal attacks on people who weigh in with good faith opinions is not appropriate.  Having looked at the diffs and associated talk, there is a clear attempt to run off people who disagree with the "old guard" or even those who attempt to tread a middle ground.  The individuals who perpetuated this incivility need some appropriate cautions and warnings.  I don't see it as an "off with their heads" sanction, but telling anyone to "f-off" is not the way to handle any dispute.   Montanabw (talk) 16:02, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You will find that there POV is more important then there willingness to solve the problem. Many suggestions have been proposed over the years to no avail, resulting in the loss of there own project members and group isolation. Some progress has been made in the wording of there advice page, but despite the communities concerns this is still a problem. Its embarrassing and a waste of time to say the least for all of us who have to explain to people why this small corner  of Wikipedia is uninviting and full of conflict.Moxy (talk) 16:20, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment I've commented a little previously on this infobox issue. I see it as an unfortunate attempt by a group of truly excellent editors who have otherwise my great respect and admiration,  to try to maintain a standard of formatting in their special area that is different from elsewhere it WP. I agree that articles look cleaner without infoboxes. I agree that our current formatting of infoboxes   overly highlights them. I hope very much the Wikidata project devises some better way of handling it. But I think there is a general consensus at WP, rightly or wrongly, that all biographical articles should have infoboxes, and I do not think any one project ought to decide otherwise unless they can get a consensus of the entire  community. We are a single encyclopedia.  The project's primary job should be maintaining the generally excellent quality of the articles in their field, not fighting over formatting. If they try to maintain a special format they will inevitably come into conflict with outsiders, and give the impression of a closed community.  DGG ( talk ) 18:24, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "But I think there is a general consensus at WP,rightly or wrongly, that all biographical articles should have infoboxes." There isn't. In fact, editors have been sanctioned for trying to impose infoboxes on articles by force and bullying . I hope very much the Wikipedia Data project and its associated tag team give up their efforts to own every article on Wikipedia. --Folantin (talk) 18:43, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Folantin, the way your remarks are worded, it sound like you are lumping everyone who is in favour of info boxes into a "tag team". There's similar remarks from other users on the Bach talk page that imply that roving gangs of bullies are going around trying to impose their info-box-will on others. There's lots of individual people who favour info boxes that are not doing so in an attempt to own the place or doing so on behalf of the Wikipedia Data project. Divisive lumping together of people of similar opinions into hypothetical factions is never a good idea, and it's one reason the issue is being discussed on this board. -- Dianna (talk) 18:59, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "Folantin, the way your remarks are worded, it sound like you are lumping everyone who is in favour of info boxes into a 'tag team'." No, I'm not and it doesn't sound that way, not if you read it properly. I'm referring to a small(ish) but highly committed group of editors who try to impose infoboxes on every article. Their reason for doing so, whether they state it or not, boils down to metadata concerns rather than any concern for things like accurate content. They appear on a wide variety of articles on subjects for which they have displayed no prior interest or knowledge. --Folantin (talk) 19:07, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I am not part of a group "imposing infoboxes on every article". I explained (on the Bach talk) that I think Bach deserves an infobox because it's a vital article, like Franz Kafka, for example. When I noticed that the thought was not welcome enough I moved on and recommended to archive the discussion. Please stay factual. - Everybody is welcome to add infoboxes to "my" articles, I like structured information for easy access and I don't believe that they are "trivialising" the subject. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:27, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No one said you were a part of this group. But Andy Mabbett and his Metadata crew is not a figment of my imagination, although some of its members are now either banned or otherwise sanctioned. Mabbett himself has been banned twice for a year by ArbCom for aggrssive behaviour. Most of these infobox debates would benefit massively by his absence. --Folantin (talk) 09:26, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This discussion should be about the incidents mentionened, Bach and Sparrow Mass. I suggested one and inserted the other. Why mention "group" in this context? - See my talk for an 1 April operatic semiseria DYK suggestion (not by me), for a smile, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:18, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Mabbett features in both those examples as well as in most of the others mentioned in this discussion. --Folantin (talk) 11:37, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, making reasonable comments, so? - I am on friendly terms with him, with the three editors mentioned in headings below (1, 2, 3), with several others in this thread, - and would like to talk about the facts of a future rather than unpleasant personal experiences of a past that I don't share. I am sorry to disagree with Truthkeeper (in this case), recommending to NOT look at old discussions, but to take a fresh unbiased look at the question if Bach or others should have an infobox, and what it should contain if wanted, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:11, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * He was permanently community-banned from contributing to Featured Article of the Day after a particular nasty infobox imposition incident only last August . He's exhibited the same behaviour for years and shows no sign of stopping....But he's your friend, so OK then. --Folantin (talk) 13:25, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "shows no sign of stopping" - I don't see that, - also "on friendly terms" and "friend" don't mean the same for me. You show no sign of stopping to talk about people instead of facts, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:36, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It is a fact that Mabbett has been community-banned and ArbCom-banned over these issues.--Folantin (talk) 13:41, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: I've been away for over a week, not logged in once, because I'm sick of these discussions and am more than disgusted at finding this here. That Gerda misses a user and adds that person to a special page  and ignores another who has left for the same reason shows the closed community DGG mentions above. I commented at Bach, and yes made edits when my suggestion to tidy the page were ignored,,, otherwise I've not edited there. These discussions have been raging all over the project and we *are* losing productive content editors because of it. One particularly nasty discussion occurred here, there's another here, one here, another here. Bullying? Yep, there's been bullying for sure. In my view bringing this is AN/I over a single word said by a single editor is beyond shortsighted. But carry on. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:16, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: As someone who loves classical music, loves working together with other people and abhors incivility: this whole thread saddens me.--Shirt58 (talk) 09:22, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have stood back here after initiating this ANI thread and responding to initial comments, but I feel I must respond to Truthkeeper's post, as well as try to begin to wrap this up. I have attempted to make it abundantly clear that this is not about one profane word at one Talk page, but about the nature of the debate on infoboxes in composer and composition articles and the methods used by opposers. That f-word triggered thorough examination of that entire Bach Talk page and the topic as a whole, but I resent being called shortsighted by Truthkeeper (who does agree, along with a number of others, that bullying at classical music articles exists) for bringing the matter to this noticeboard. As I have commented on the Bach talk page, I gave the matter considerable thought. Above all, the fact that I was and am completely uninvolved in this debate and those debating it made me, I continue to feel, an ideal editor to initiate this ANI complaint to bring in fresh eyes to the overall topic of bullying and ownership at classical music articles. I also feel that the fact that I have never initiated a single ANI complaint of any kind previously added weight to my concerns. It may be important at this point to acknowledge that at least one advocate of infoboxes in classical music articles has issues of the his own regarding questionable editing practices. So be it. That a number of other editors have stepped forward to agree that a problem exists has been established. Let's move on from there to the next phase of this discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jusdafax (talk • contribs) 09:29, 3 April 2013‎
 * You do realise, don't you, that Truthkeeper was referring to what she perceived as bullying by pro-infobox editors? And that she pointed to what she considers to be further examples of it, not in classical musical articles, but in those on literary and historic architecture subjects? Voceditenore (talk) 10:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: I've arrived here late, and to be frank I'm relieved to have missed most of it. I’ve been accused (inaccurately) of saying that the infobox proposal at Talk:Johann Sebastian Bach was made in ‘bad faith’, though in fact I said was that it was an open question. What I had in mind was SNOW "If an issue does not have a snowball's chance in hell of being accepted . . . ." Here’s the relevant diff . (The context of my remark was the attempt to close a damaging and unproductive discussion.) I stand by what I wrote there and elsewhere in response to the proposal. Anybody who reads this ANI and still thinks that these discussions are ruled by AGF must be living in cloud cuckoo land. Given the substantial blocks suffered by the leading player in these debates, going back to 2007, good faith is clearly in short supply.  Klein zach  15:43, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I live in a "cloud cuckoo land", not after reading "these discussions", but when suggesting an infobox for Bach. Things could be so simple, Gerda writes an article, Andy adds an infobox, Gerda says thank you. (This is an example, which also actually happened, see Holzhausenschlösschen). Note that I said "adds", not "imposes" "by force". I think of infoboxes as an additional access to structured information, we can discuss their content and their design ("cloud cuckoo land"?). I don't think sanctions will help to change minds. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:55, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps somebody else has thus accused you, but IIRC I said you had "questioned Gerda's good faith". Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:52, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Infoboxes aren't as great as many people think that they are. It is 100% ok to not use them. -- Guerillero &#124;  My Talk  01:58, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It is also 100% OK to use them. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:52, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment. The bias against infoboxes by the classical music/composer projects is a well-known fact and has been ongoing for many years now.  There are good arguments on both sides.  In theory, infoboxes were designed to help the reader; they were meant to confer essential information at a glance in an unobtrusive way, but that has not always been the case.  The best solution is for preferences to control their placement.  If you don't like them, then you should be able to use your preferences to control their display. Viriditas (talk) 02:25, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It is already possible for a user to hide them, using their local CSS (set  to  ). I'm in a rush now, but I'm sure someone at WP:VPT will advise or assist anyone wanting to do so.  Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:52, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Proposed sanctions for Nikkimaria, Ceoli, and Kleinzach
It is established that there is a problem with the methods being used by some opponents to infoboxes in general and these three in particular. I have discussed each editor in the bullet points in my original complaint that started this thread. I call for editor comment on proposed sanctions for the three as a start to make it clear to opponents, and yes, supporters of infoboxes as well. One thing I notice is that none of the three has seen fit to contribute to this discussion to date, much less express contrition. This, in my view, should be a matter of of community concern and response. Jus da  fax   08:29, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Jusdafax, I suggest you do your homework before asking for these sanctions. You've dropped into a single conversation, taken offense to a single word, and are apparently fully unaware of more than a year of seriously unacceptable behavior by Pigsonthewing et. al., that's had repercussions in terms of editor retention. The Bach conversation came directly on the heels of another infobox discussion and in the least the timing was bad. It was you who posted beneath my own post on Bach saying there will be an infobox regardless, basically telling me to fuck off. I'm very very tired of this and hope that other uninvolved admins do their homework, look at the many conversations - I can provide more diffs if someone posts a request on my page - and takes a good long hard look at what's really happening. Furthermore in terms of looking for contrition and responses, might be a good idea to look at editors' editing patterns to see how often and when they edit before asking for sanctions less than 24 hours after a single comment was dropped on a page. In my view you're fueling a fire that's best let alone and I strongly suggest you withdraw these proposals and let this thread be archived. Truthkeeper (talk) 12:06, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Bullying? Ownership concerns? The first just didn't happen – profanity and incivility are not bullying. The second is asserted but never even attempted to be shown. This whole soap opera/drama should never have reached this forum. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 15:02, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I have already explained the ownership concerns, above (Timestamp: 15:11, 2 April 2013).  Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:21, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Proposed block of Ceoil
For his profane f-word greeting to my initial greeting to my initial post at the J.S. Bach talk page, as well as other highly questionable editing behavior found on the Bach talk page, I propose a block. This block is preventative, not punitive. To date, Ceoil has received a lukewarm warning on his talkpage, with no contrition expressed or indeed response of any kind. Again, this editor has amassed 11 blocks for unacceptable editing in the past, which must be factored into my concerns. Jus da  fax   08:29, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * What a pompous and pretentious statement.  Giano   21:17, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Jusdafax, Ceoil wrote "In other words, I discount your argument, becuase I cant, and dont want to, understand it. And fuck you anyway." Ceoil is not making an own statement here but is satirizing your position.--Razionale (talk) 12:46, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I apologise for the tone of my replies, and the swearing, but just not for the substance of what I was (ineglently) trying to say. Jusdafax, contrition, really? If you going to get into arguments, and try and walk past people, full steam, and totally disregarding thier view point so flippiantly, expect frank openion back. Ceoil (talk) 21:17, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Proposed strong warning or additional block for Administrator Nikkimaria
A 24 hour block for the edit warring and tendentious editing outlined above is not enough. Administrators must exhibit the highest standards of community trust; when they edit in demonstrated bad faith, a serious problem exists. Here again, no contrition has been demonstrated, to my knowledge. This suggests an intractable admin with a pov issue that needs to be dealt with by the community, and not just by a 24 hour block that the admin can then scrub from their Talk page and go on their way. Jus da  fax   08:29, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Was the user in question warned before they made their fourth revert? Also this happened 5 days ago thus a little old. And the users who were attempting to add the content into the article managed to do so per and without consensus on the talk page . Typically it is the person attempting to add new content who should get consensus before it is added not the other way around.  Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 15:52, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The admin in question was blocked (24 hours) for that episode. The "warning" was a diff to this conversation. Unless I'm mistaken, the OP here is asking for an (additional) longer block for the offense she'd already been blocked for. Voceditenore (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * There's no evidence of any "admin abuse". Nikkimaria did not use her admin tools in the dispute(s). --Folantin (talk) 17:08, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * RFC is thataway. --Rschen7754 17:23, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Proposed warning for Kleinzach
To submit that a proposal for an infobox, made in civil language and with proper formatting and knowledge of the subject is in "bad faith," is unacceptable, and cannot be allowed to stand. At least one other editor has provided an additional complaint diff above; I suggest a strong warning on Kleinzach's Talk page to discourage this sort of attack-editing in the future. Jus da  fax   08:29, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * No sanctions. Some other admin may feel free to warn editors more sternly. Personally, I think that Ceoil's "Fuck you" came way too out of the blue, and if you agree you might feel inclined to leave some diplomatic words of your own on their talk page. But here's the thing. Some of you are some of the best editors around. There's at least a half a dozen names in the conversation above and the discussion on the article talk page--wait, maybe a dozen--of some of the finest editors I know producing some of the finest content we have. In y'all's capacity as editors, I look up to you. In y'all's capacity as human beings, you may not be as bad as I am, but you're not perfect either, that's clear as well. There's bad blood here, judging from some of the article talk page comments (there's mention of teams, of ownership, etc), but blocks are only going to make that worse. As an admin (admittedly not of the same detached and calm temperament as some others), I do not think that the (admittedly poor) behavior (of some) is blockworthy. Will you please work this out some other way? You're setting a terrible example for the kids. Sorry, I'd speechify more, but a student came in and we're talking Paradise Lost. Good luck to you all, and may you write your content cooperatively and in peace. Drmies (talk) 16:56, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No sanctions, please read what I said above, look for "cloud cuckoo land": "I don't think sanctions will help to change minds." --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:55, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * ps: I try praise, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:53, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Concur with Gerda. Some WP contributors are more emollient than others, but I agree with Drmies, above: we must not get so prim as to drive away key contributors over minor alarums and excursions. Kleinzach is a key contributor by any standard; the areas of WP that I work in would simply not exist as they now are without him. I've had the occasional reciprocal poke in the eye from Kleinzach, but such things are as nothing compared to his contribution. Strongly opposed to any sanction. – Tim riley (talk) 19:21, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Drmies in the entirety. This whole thing is getting very unseemly.  I've studiously avoided being drawn in, but even if people are unable to agree, they need to agree on a way of settling the question.  Otherwise it's going to land in ArbCom.  I used to tell parents in custody matters that despite their differences, it was better that they decide what happens to their children than a stranger, however well-meaning and learned.  I do not feel a great deal of sympathy toward content contributors from ArbCom these days.  Don't go there.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:52, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It started unseemly and it will end with content editors walking away - off the top of my head I know of about five who already have, good editors even if not considered "quality editors". If the above is a veiled threat, then add more who will simply decide that if writing isn't valued on WP there are better ways to spend one's volunteer time. Giano got it right here. That's the only way to end it, but wasn't accepted and then moved on to Bach a day or so later and so it goes. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:28, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I did not mean to sound threatening and am very sorry if you mean that I did. I simply hope that you can settle this thing, in some way that ends this flareup.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:34, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * "You" - singular? As in TK herself settles this? "You" plural as in "you group of editors?" Or perhaps "we" - as in the community, whatever that is. If "we" or "you" the community want only metadata then speaking for only for myself, I've spend too much money on library fines, books, etc., and way too much time creating content that's obviously meaningless and WP is the wrong place for me. If "we" the community want to impose across-the-board uniformity to the point of blocking editors who protest, then you're right, it needs to be settled. But I suspect strongly it will settled by people walking or committing wiki-suicide. And yes, the remark about the arbs vs. content editors did sound a bit threatening. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:55, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I also support the reasonings by Drmies, Tim Riley, Wehwalt and Gersa. Per Tim and Drmies, we must never get so prim that we drive off any productive editors. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:59, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) It does not appear that an infobox policy has been/will be adopted; 2) that leaves it to local consensus; 3) so, you are either going to have to work it out article to article (with the continuing sturm and drang) or come to some solution among yourselves (perhaps in mediation); but whatever you do, first decide if any of it is worth the cost. Isn't an infobox (as nice as they are) a small thing, compared to the article itself? -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't want to comment on bans and civility blocks. I'd like to comment more generally. See Help:Infobox: The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article. It is a good recommendation for a free encyclopedia. I oppose promoting uniformity and I support people who still believe that this is a free encyclopedia. I don't think editors at WP:CM are a clique, they work in the complicated area of music history, which may be (and is) different from other areas. They have right to object to oversimplifications. They present their arguments in a sensible and informed way. They could hardly be called a "minority", because in that area, they are actually a "majority". A really free and professional encyclopedic project should respect their point of view. On a side note, I don't think we desperately need this kind of consistency (I mean "all bios must have an infobox"). --Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 15:46, 6 April 2013 (UTC)