Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case

= Requests for arbitration  =

Aspersions cast by Thryduulf
Initiated by   Sandstein   at 15:16, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Proposed parties

 * , filing party


 * Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request


 * diff of the notification of Thryduulf


 * Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried
 * Deletion review/Log/2024 July 2, section "British Rail DHP1"

Statement by Sandstein
In a WP:DRV request of 2 July 2024 regarding a WP:AFD closure I made (the substance of both proceedings are irrelevant to this request),, an administrator and oversighter, wrote: "Andy Dingley also states that it [the AfD] might have been closed as delete because they !voted keep, I don't have an opinion about whether that is true or not but iff it is then it's significantly problematic even ignoring everything else."

In doing so, Thryduulf accused me of misconduct in my capacity as an administrator. Namely, they falsely insinuated, without evidence, that I closed the AfD as "delete" merely because of alleged animosity against Andy Dingley. (To be clear, I hold no animosity against Andy Dingley, whom I do not know, nor did I let anything other than my assessment of policy-based rough consensus influence the AfD closure.)

This false allegation by Thryduulf violates the principle, recognized by ArbCom, that "an editor must not accuse another of misconduct without evidence" (WP:ASPERSIONS). It also violates the policy WP:NPA, and the WMF's universal code of conduct, particularly §2.2 (civility, collegiality), §3.1 (harassment) and §3.2 (using one's position and reputation to intimidate others).

For these purposes, it does not matter that Thryduulf cast the aspersions by couching them in terms of echoing an allegation made by Andy Dingley. This is because the effect is the same as if Thryduulf had made the allegations directly: a senior administrator falsely insinuates serious (and probably desysoppable) misconduct on my part in a prominent public forum.

After I objected to this false allegation, several editors agreed that it was an "off-base", "offensive, baseless aspersion" that should be struck. But Thryduulf did not do so or otherwise retract the aspersions. Instead, they sought to justify their aspersions by arguing that I failed to respond to the same aspersions when they were cast by Andy Dingley on my talk page. That is absurd, as nothing requires anyone to defend themselves against prohibited unsubstantiated accusations of misconduct (not even WP:ADMINACCT, which presupposes that queries are made in "reasonable good faith").

The above shows that Thryduulf seriously failed to meet the community's expectations regarding administrator conduct. I therefore respectfully request that ArbCom take up this case and take such disciplinary action as they deem appropriate.

WP:RFAR, as the last resort in dispute resolution, is the proper venue for this request because (a) only ArbCom can take disciplinary action against administrators, (b) the discussion of Thryduulf's comment at the DRV did not resolve the problem, and (c) it is clear from Thryduulf's statements in the DRV, cited above, that further discussions in other fora would not have helped either.  Sandstein  15:16, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your questions. In my view, it would have been pointless to ask Thryduulf to retract their aspersion, since they already declined to follow the advice of multiple editors to do so in the DRV (and again here). It would also not ensure that such conduct does not reoccur, unless Thryduulf recognizes that what they did was wrong, and why.
 * An AN thread would also not have been helpful. First, it would have had the counterproductive effect of bringing Thryduulf's baseless allegation to the attention of even more people (more, I assume, than watch this page). Second, where the conduct of a long-established editor with many wikifriends (as evidenced by the recusal) and holder of multiple advanced permissions is at issue, experience shows that AN(I) discussions lead to more heat than light and rarely to an remedy that is effective at preventing the reoccurrence of misconduct. Only ArbCom can shape such remedies.
 * With respect to this being a single case, Cryptic's statement suggests that more similar conduct may come to light during the evidence phase; in my experience, such conduct rarely happens in isolation. Moreover, WP:ADMINACCT provides that "Administrators who seriously or repeatedly act in a problematic manner (...) may be sanctioned" such as for "Breach of basic policies (attacks, biting/civility[)]", meaning that even a single case of serious personal attacks by an administrator warrants examination - particularly in the light of the UCoC and its enforcement guidelines.   Sandstein   18:21, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The evidence for your seriously acting in a problematic manner is linked to in the above request for arbitration.  Sandstein   18:33, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Thryduulf
I have nothing more to say than I said in the DRV - I simply noted that allegations had been made by Andy Dingley and explicitly expressed no opinion regarding whether they were true or not. While some editors thought the allegations and/or the reporting of them were "off base" as Sandstein puts it, others such as SportingFlyer and Nfitz didn't see any personal attacks at all. The majority of participants did not comment one way or the other, presumably seeing it as irrelevant to the topic at hand. If any personal attacks were made they were made by Andy Dingley not me so it is particularly surprising to hear Sandstein say he has no problem with Andy making the comments. Given that the DRV has been closed a week, and both Sandstein and I have been active in the intervening period, I assumed this was all settled and everybody had moved on with their lives. To say I was startled to get the talk page notification is somewhat of an understatement - especially as there has been no discussion of this on my talk page, Sandstein's talk page, AN(I) or anywhere else that I am aware of. Thryduulf (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The issue Cryptic refers to is completely different - that was a blunt comment left by me as a description of actions Scott stated they took. Was I too blunt with the description? possibly, but they were not aspersions. If anybody does feel it worth taking that further (I don't), the best starting point would be to answer the question I asked at AN. Thryduulf (talk) 17:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Maxim given that the DRV page has been closed and archived a week now would striking it be appropriate and do anything more than draw extra attention to it? (although given the filing here, I suppose extra attention on the accusation is something Sandstein has no objection to?) Thryduulf (talk) 18:20, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Maxim (et al) I've now struck the quote at the closed DRV. Thryduulf (talk) 20:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Sandstein How is accusing me of "seriously or repeatedly acting in a problematic manner" without presenting evidence of such (vaguely speculating that if you file an arb case someone might throw some mud at the wall is not evidence) not you casting an aspersion? Thryduulf (talk) 18:25, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You have linked to one instance of my quoting somebody else making an allegation. Even if you disregard the multiple people who have failed to see any problem with my quoting it, that is not evidence of "seriously acting in a problematic manner" and it is unarguably not evidence of anything repeated. Thryduulf (talk) 18:37, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * (and Mangoe if I'm "the subject") Could I have a crumb of context please? Thryduulf (talk) 20:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment by Serial
I can just see how Andy's original "Sorry, but I'd assumed that Sandstein went with delete here just because I'd gone for keep" could be taken as a (pretty low grade) aspersion, indicating that Sandstein was biased (not sure what level of aspersion it really rises too though). But, by all that's holy, how can a remark made by one editor possibly be interpreted as a personal attack by another?! All they did, surely, was repeat something someone else had said, while noting that, they personally "don't have an opinion about whether that is true or not". Which Sandstein even mentions in their statement. ——Serial Number 54129 16:08, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Alalch E.
I agree that this was an aspersion and an uncollegial remark. Sandstein did well to ignore the original remark by Andy, as an isolated incident. But it is no longer an isolated incident when a second person picks up and repeats and amplifies the aspersion. Thryduulf, as an administrator (in particular because he is an administrator), is expected to know this, and he should have properly understood what it means for Sandstein to have ignored the remark. I don't think that it would have been productive to discuss this at ANI, because it is not an urgent incident or a chronic or intractable behavioral problem. It's a non-urgent incident, which significantly worsens Sandstein's experience on the site regardless. I don't think that Sandstein was obligated to start a discussion on Thryduulf's talk page after the latter wrote:. There was enough conversation between Sandstein and Thryduulf, and the latter made his position clear and did not retract. As someone who comments in DRV, my observation is that any remark of the sort that Thryduulf made lowers the level of the forum, and worsens the atmosphere of collegiality that is normally present there. Thryduulf should not do this in the future.While aspersions are personal attacks, I disagree with the following from Sandstein:. Both are administrators and I don't see a difference in power. (While Sandstein describes Thryduulf as a "senior administrator", there are in fact no senior administrators—all administrators are simply administrators—but if there had been, Sandstein would also have been a "senior administrator", in my view.)16:37, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Cryptic
This isn't isolated. A similar level of hostility - to whatever extent one's inclined to consider either exchange hostile - occurred at Deletion review/Log/2024 June 28. There was also some follow-up discussion at WP:AN. —Cryptic 16:52, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Floq
It is simply not true that only ArbCom can take disciplinary action against administrators. Administrators can be warned, topic banned, interaction banned, or even blocked by the community. The only thing that is ArbCom-only is a desysop.

It would set a good precedent for ArbCom to quickly reject this case request because not all dispute resolution steps have been tried. It doesn't take a month to determine that Thryduulf was kind of a dick, and Sandstein overreacted. And it doesn't take a week to determine that AN/ANI weren't tried. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:37, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I think you are confusing the two different people User:AndyTheGrump and User:Andy Dingley. Floquenbeam (talk) 18:40, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Black Kite
I don't even see the problem here. Thryduulf clearly said "I don't have an opinion about whether that is true or not but if it is then it's significantly problematic". If we ended up here every time someone said "if *insert aspersion about X here* is true then *X should be sanctioned*" then this page would be flooded. Black Kite (talk) 18:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Statement by North8000
99% of the time (including in interactions with me) Thryduulf has been excellent. One instance of the 1% they were badly out of line with (including from their own norms) in an interaction with me. One or two other possible ones are noted above. Maybe a nudge to strive to get that 99% closer to 100% from somewhere would be good, if this turns out to be such an instance. Maybe administrative action review, albeit for/was using using the admin imprimatur rather than the tools. North8000 (talk) 18:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC) Response: I'll send it by email and you decide. Sincerely North8000 (talk) 20:35, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Statement by User:Mangoe
While I have had my go-'rounds with the subject, I'm not seeing where this needs to go forward. I have to agree that the AfD closure didn't make a lot of sense and I personally would have relisted, and had I participated, I would have gone with a merge given that this was a single prototype for a larger class. I think the comment was uncalled for but the reaction to it seems excessive. Can we just all move on? Mangoe (talk) 18:56, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Striking the first phrase as I have no intention of revisiting the past. Mangoe (talk) 20:17, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Statement by 28bytes
I don’t think this needs to be a case, but I can also understand why someone would be ticked off at an administrator echoing an unsupported “big, if true!” allegation that disparages them.

, what could Thryduulf do at this point for you to consider the issue resolved and obviate the need for a case? 28bytes (talk) 20:12, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Just Step Sideways
A lesson I learned the hard way is that sometimes it is better to left some things unsaid when closing a discussion if they don't really matter as to the end result. Whatever your intent may be, such comments can be interpreted in ways you did not anticipate, and drama can follow. I'd hope that Thryduulf now realizes this as well, having struck the offending comment out, which I believe satisfies WP:ADMINACCT, so I don't think there is a case here. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 20:21, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Robert McClenon (Thryduulf)
What remedy is Sandstein requesting against Thryduulf? If the remedy is anything less than desysopping for one aspersion, then ArbCom should decline the case because the community has not yet been asked to remind, warn, or admonish Thryduulf. If the remedy being asked is a desysop, then ArbCom should decline the case because the remedy is disproportionate to a one-time offense.

What started this is that an experienced non-admin editor, User:Andy Dingley, insulted the filing party on their user talk page by suggesting that they had closed an AFD contrary to their !vote out of spite. That was a low-level personal attack and should have either resulted in a short block or been ignored. I called out User:Andy Dingley and was also insulted, and then tried to ignore the trolling. Instead User:Thryduulf repeated the allegation (and has now stricken that repetition). Either User:Sandstein should ignore the low-level insult or ask for action against Andy Dingley, but the time to respond to the original insult is two weeks in the past. Not every cheap insult deserves to be repeated and quarreled about, even if an admin makes a second mistake of repeating the insult. User:Andy Dingley was acting like a troll and provoked a reaction, which should be allowed to subside. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:48, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Ivanvector
I'm curious why, since it's his comments that are at the center of this, AndyTheGrump has not been listed as a party? It seems relevant to this complaint that the editor who originally made the offending comment was recently the subject of a community discussion about their history of offensive behaviour, and is currently sitting out a week-long arbitration enforcement block resulting from that discussion. Had Andy not cast that blatant aspersion, we wouldn't be here. It was also suggested repeatedly in that discussion that Andy's behaviour was heading for an Arbcom case. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:29, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Well the answer to why AndyTheGrump isn't listed here has been answered: I indeed have confused two different and entirely separate incidents. Apologies. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:44, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Statement by Softlavender
This looks like it's a snow decline, but even so I wonder why this was taken immediately to RFAR rather than to AN, which is always the primary initial port of call for minor or major admin-conduct issues. I respect both of these admins and the hard work and lengthy time they put into Wikipedia. I think this was a misunderstanding and something was sort of 'lost in translation', possibly coupled with perhaps some built-up past history or irritation which was not disclosed. I do not think a single sentence in a DRV warrants jumping to RFAR, and I hope Sandstein familiarizes himself on the venue that should have been used instead as the primary venue for this. Softlavender (talk) 02:22, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Statement by {Non-party}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.

Aspersions cast by Thryduulf: Clerk notes

 * This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).


 * Noting that the original comment by Andy Dingley is at Special:Diff/1231516029. Posting this here as it is more of a clerking/housekeeping comment rather than "as an arb". Primefac (talk) 15:49, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Aspersions cast by Thryduulf: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/7/1>
Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)
 * Recuse. Thryduulf and I are good friends in real life so I'm duty bound to sit this one out. HJ Mitchell &#124; Penny for your thoughts? 16:43, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thryduulf: could you please consider striking "Andy Dingley also states that it might have been closed as delete because they !voted keep, I don't have an opinion about whether that is true or not but iff it is then it's significantly problematic even ignoring everything else" from the DRV page? You're repeating an unsubstantiated accusation that's clearly prejudicial to Sandstein; to fling around something like that requires something resembling evidence at a minimum, and there has been nothing resembling evidence presented for that accusation. Sandstein: I think someone of your experience would know that ArbCom is not about to jump to a case over a single incident of throwing mud. Why not reiterate your request to Thryduulf to retract the comment on his talkpage, or barring that, start at thread at WP:AN? It seems to me an unnecessary escalation; Floq would have given the same advice at AN as he has here. Maxim (talk) 17:55, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that WP:ARC is the biggest drama board of them all, especially when administrator conduct is involved. Going here, versus AN/ANI and maybe XRV, will tend to attract more attention than elsewhere because it's the highest-stakes environment. At this point, anyone into drama knows about the comment, so striking it at the DRV, even if it's been archived, is unlikely to bring significantly more attention. It would have the upside of being a formal retraction. While I don't want to appear to speak for my colleagues, ArbComs present and in the near past don't seem to have a habit of sanctioning administrators over a single incident, that, as far as single incidents go, is very much on the mild side. Maxim (talk) 19:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Decline, per everyone else below. Maxim (talk) 00:51, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Is only ArbCom can take disciplinary action against administrators something that can be found written somewhere? Policy (e.g. WP:BANDESYSOP) contradicts this, and administrators have been and should be subject to community sanctions. The disputes or complaints section of the Administrators policy reflects the fact that administrators are not above the normal dispute resolution processes and that these processes should generally be attempted prior to a case request, and this is not an extraordinary situation that would be an exception. The DRV discussion alone is not sufficient prior dispute resolution that would warrant a case. - Aoidh (talk) 19:12, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Decline - Per my above comment. - Aoidh (talk) 16:51, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Arbitration is a last resort and apparently not required at this time. &#126; ToBeFree (talk) 14:01, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Decline, primarily because the original content was struck, also per ToBeFree. Primefac (talk) 16:01, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Decline I don't see a need for us to act here --Guerillero Parlez Moi 19:44, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Decline. I broadly agree with Maxim's comments here. As a general matter, although the threshold for accepting an ADMINCOND case is lower than the threshold for accepting a case, the case request must provide enough information to determine that there is a serious case to consider . See . Best, KevinL ( aka L235 · t · c) 20:12, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Decline I don't think this rises to an incident where ArbCom is necessary. Z1720 (talk) 19:28, 19 July 2024 (UTC)