Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Jytdog/Workshop

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Questions to the parties

 * Arbitrators may ask questions of the parties in this section.

=Proposed final decision=

Jytdog's behavior
2) Jytdog's problematic behavior has included aggressive WP:COI enforcement without due respect for the editors suspected of COI editing, inappropriate off-wiki contacts, egregious violations of WP:CIVILITY, templating the regulars and general uncooperativeness. Jytdog's hostility has driven away other editors from Wikipedia.

There is a previous 2015 ArbCom finding of fact: "Jytdog has engaged in edit warring, has belittled other editors, and has engaged in non-civil conduct. " Jytdog has two previous indefinite blocks related to outing.
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 * Important to observe how the 2015 arbitration (the warning, the contrition, the apology, the pledge by Jytdog to do better) had zero impact on Jytdog's behavior. He continued harassing other editors. Since one of his defenders points to the important of diffs in comments, I'll share again this post he placed on my user talk page 1 August 2017. two years after the 2015 arbitration. The arbitration had no impact on his poor impulse control and inability to work with other editors. Coretheapple (talk) 14:04, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Off-wiki contact with Beall4
2) Jytdog's unsolicited phone call to Beall4 constituted a serious breach of WP:HARASSMENT.
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 * I have a question about his other editing behaviors also constituting harassment. There are seven presentations of evidence on the evidence page demonstrating harassment-type problems from Jytdog, and it looks as if they are all from women. Is this just coincidence, or is it possible Jytdog targeted editors he thought were female?  I know I strongly felt this was part of his issue with me.  I also know my feelings aren't proof of anything.  Still, it is a big coincidence, and should perhaps be considered.  Or perhaps not.  I throw it out there for comment.  Even the possibility of having an editor that targets women on Wikipedia is problematic. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:22, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * In case this is helpful, I will share my experience, since I worked alongside Jytdog as both a male and female. I was warned prior to opening this account not to reveal my gender here, as I wouldn't be taken as seriously. I worked hard to sound like a male, and successfully fooled my fellow editors until outed when given the "Editor of the Week" award. I remember thinking at the time, if Jytdog is the person I think he is, his behaviour towards me will change in a palpable way. It was immediate and so obvious it made me laugh. He quit answering my requests for sources or proof of his statements on talk pages, and when he did decide to respond, it was only to toy with me. I felt batted around like a mouse by a cat, that was how I was treated after Jytdog found out I am female. (Feel free to remove this comment if necessary.)    petrarchan47  คุ  ก   22:02, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Jytdog deceived others about the Beall4 incident
2) Jytdog gave false statements about the details pertaining to his inappropriate phone call to Beall4. He only back-pedalled after he had been called out several times. (Voceditenore's evidence/Premidated Chaos' evidence).
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Editors protected Jytdog as a so-called unblockable
1) Jytdog was subject to an extraordinary high number of AN/I complaints (wbm1058's evidence). Despite many legitimate complaints, Jytdog was never sanctioned, as his block log mostly constitutes of Oversight or ArbCom blocks. 's block for the latest incident resulted in a major pushback from Jytdog's supporters (Jusdafax's evidence). In some instances, editors who complained about Jytdog were sanctioned with a WP:BOOMERANG (Lepricavark's evidence/Sep 2018 ANI thread).
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 * Not sure what this adds. The evidence establishes that Jytdog's behavior is and has been repeatedly atrocious, but nobody has questioned either of the other two parties from the original case and nobody else is a party here at Case 2: The Recasening.  The actions of other specific editors is largely out of scope. ~  Amory  (u • t • c) 14:19, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I disagree. This is the heart of the matter. This explains how we got here. This is why so much damage was done by one editor (as now thoroughly documented on the evidence page). Who's at fault in this entire debacle? The community, for enabling it. The 2018 ANI in particular looks really, really bad. If we are to improve as a community, we need to be honest with ourselves about unblockables. Levivich&thinsp;[dubious – discuss] 14:04, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with Levivich - the community has demonstrably failed regarding holding Jytdog to account on multiple occasions. This isn't to say that every single complainant was without fault, but when it's six of one and half a dozen of the other sanctioning only one party is not resolving the problem, let alone when it's 90% Jytdog. Whether other editors also need sanctioning is outside the scope of this case and entirely unprejudiced by it. Thryduulf (talk) 19:23, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The community, yes, failed, and that'd be fine, but "Editors protected" and "so-called unblockable" isn't that. To me, this reads as "There are some specific editors who we're not naming, but you can find 'em" rather than "This is broken and is also why we're having the Harassment RfC." ~  Amory  (u • t • c) 11:16, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The problem of a false WP:BOOMERANG against anyone who challenges Jytdog is worth examining. I’ve even tangled with this problem and have been threatened with blocks and other sanctions by these folks over simple editing disputes. There is a line between enforcement of policy and bullying. Jytdog crosses it routinely, often with WP:BAIT that results in others (not surprisingly) losing their temper, and then he is egged on and enabled by others.  Montanabw (talk) 15:38, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Regardless of exact wording, it is true that Jytdog enjoyed an unseemly level of protection that enabled their behavior to go unchecked for far longer than it should have. L EPRICAVARK ( talk ) 12:13, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This is the elephant in the room, and Jytdog is not even the worst example of the "unblockable" phenomenon that comes to mind. Actually "unblockable" is a misnomer. What happens is that an editor is blocked multiple times, but a day of reckoning is always postponed when the editors puts on a humble act for a short tiime. In the process, the editor gains confidence that only the Wikipedia equivalent of a silver bullet will separate him from the project. Their behavior continues and possibly gets worse, and other editors are driven from the project or from subject areas. Coretheapple (talk) 18:45, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * There are significant issues with this as a FOF. First, people are allowed to voice oppositions and disagreements to blocks, or ask that the blocking admin justifies/explains their decision. Second, the WP:BOOMERANG blocks were fully warranted. Whether or not something should have been done about Jytdog is independent of whether or not others needed to be blocked. The term "unblockable" is also problematic for many reasons. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:16, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Agree. The unblockable/boomerang subject seems to imply a battleground mentality. It cites wbm1058's evidence as general hand-waving, but doesn't mention that most of those cases where Jytdog not being at fault at all (see Arbitration/Requests/Case/Jytdog/Workshop). That makes the claim about a high number of ANI and legitimate complaints misleading. Saying that they were never blocked for these is a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. If people are wanting Jytdog blocked, them not getting blocked at legitimate complaints about other editors is going to look like being unblockable. That also gets into the cited ANI where Jytdog did need their behavior addressed even though they quickly struck the comment, but Andy Digley needlessly escalated the situation and was sanctioned for hounding.
 * Jusdafax's evidence (who has been sanctioned in GMOs for aspersions and misue of admin boards) doesn't really have substance either and implies more battleground mentioning Jytdog's "supporters". That was a pretty wide swath of people asking for clarification, so the unblockable/supporter/enabler framing seems to just be stirring up sentiment when the community has been trying to deal with everything going on in disputes and not just zeroing in on only Jytdog. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:59, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Jytdog is site-banned
1) Jytdog2 is indefinitely blocked and Jytdog is not allowed to edit Wikipedia under any account.


 * Comment by Arbitrators:
 * This is certainly a possible outcome to the case. However, I don't agree with Coretheapple that Jytdog's 2018 statement that he was permanently retiring, in and of itself, means that he should never be allowed to return. An editor could sincerely believe that he or she would never want to edit again, and more than a year later change his or her mind. Our decision should be based on the editor's entire overall record of behavior. Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:07, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree. People change their minds, mature and grow, see the light, however you want to put it. The question before us is about his behavior in the past, his insight into that behavior, the veracity of his pledges not to continue as before, and whether the totality of it warrants a permanent ban from us, not the other way around. Katietalk 13:55, 29 March 2020 (UTC)


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 * The only choice in my opinion. Assuming good faith is a not a suicide pact. As mentioned in the General discussion section on this page, Jytdog has promised to improve his behavior after each block but has failed. That's what site-bans are for. --Pudeo (talk) 22:00, 28 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I believe the evidence clearly shows a siteban is the way to conclude this case, and thank Pudeo for this proposal. Jytdog avoided a full ArbCom case in 2018 by "retiring" because, as he stated himself, it was obvious what the result would be. Arguments in favor of a "time served" reinstatement of editing priviledges do not address that fact, and effectively allow Jytog to control when he leaves, and returns.


 * Proposals to topic ban and othewise attempt to correct his widely abusive behavior fly in the face of the failure of previous ArbCom warnings, blocks, topic bans, etc. I also again remind the Committee of the emails not made public, as discussed previously, which played a major role in the halted 2018 AbCom proceedings. Countless editor hours have been consumed in this matter alone. Enough is enough: simply ban Jytdog, and let's move on. Jusdafax (talk) 00:35, 29 March 2020 (UTC)


 * No heavy lifting required. In December 2018, at the end of an otherwise self-serving statement, Jytdog said  "I am out of here. I am scrambling my WP password and deleting my gmail account and 'Jytdog' will cease to do anything, anywhere.  If you see any other Jytdog doing stuff in the future, anywhere, it is not me." He then said  "I urge Arbcom to do just do a motion and indef or site ban me."   Either he meant it, in which case his wish should be belatedly granted, or it was not said in good faith (as I believed then and now) in which case his wish should be belatedly granted.  The only difference from 2018 is the additional wasted time he's put everyone through and the WP:GAMING aspect of his "permanent," "swore on a stack of bibles he'd never return" "resignation." Coretheapple (talk) 01:54, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree that this is the only option. I do want to add one other reason why. The WMF T&S is no longer taking calls. They are now transferring all authority to the English Wikipedia for English Wikipedia abuse cases. That means we need to show that we take abuse cases seriously. So far I haven't seen that. I've given up when I had to deal with T&S when I was told to "take it to the community." That is the last place I want to go. This action would be a first step in showing people that the English Wikipedia actually does take abuse and harassment seriously. Sir Joseph (talk) 03:41, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * As above, overwhelmingly supported by the evidence (years ago, even). ~ Amory  (u • t • c) 11:18, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The most appropriate sanction. The lack of “veracity of his pledges not to continue as before” is marked, repeated, and consistent.  He is not going to change. He will merely make humble noises for a bit and start up again a few months later. His useful work is outweighed by his toxic and damaging behavior.  Montanabw (talk) 15:41, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Like others above, I believe that a site ban is the only appropriate sanction here. I have not had any interactions with Jytdog before, but I find the evidence presented in this case of sustained long-term pattern of toxic bullying and harassment by Jytdog to be overwhelming. No amount of content contributions can outweigh that. Nsk92 (talk) 16:29, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * This really is the only acceptable outcome. I absolutely agree with Newyorkbrad and KrakatoaKatie above that editors can recognize their faults, learn from their past transgressions, and mature, and when they do we welcome them back. Jytdog has not: they still, in this case, in 2020, believe the only thing wrong about all of this was that the call went badly. They are still, in this case, in 2020, defending their decision to investigate another editor's identity to call them uninvited at their place of work for the express purpose of continuing an internet dispute which originated on our project, as though they have some authority to represent Wikipedia. As though it's a thing to be expected from editing here that strangers will call you out of the blue at work to pursue disagreements. If there was any hint, any indication whatsoever, that Jytdog even remotely understands how incredibly wrong all of this was, then perhaps the absolute minefield of proposed restrictions to deal with their many other problematic behaviours would be reasonable. But there are no restrictions we can create that will force Jytdog to get this, and if they don't get it then there's no reason to trust they won't do it again. Our only option at this time is a complete ban. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 22:08, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Evidence is compelling and overwhelming. In my opening remarks on the 2018 case, I was neutral, still assuming good faith and believing that Jytdog could mend his ways.
 * Today, a neutral position towards abusive editors is no longer tenable for the community, and for ArbCom. WP:FRAMGATE showed that the WMF was not the right entity to police enwiki, and the Jytdog case is a test of enwiki's willingness to enforce "lines in the sand" when an editor has indulged in multiple, egregious violations of our fourth pillar for years with impunity. Sadly, Jytdog has exhausted his supply of WP:ROPE. — JFG talk 03:58, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment by Xxanthippe. Both the telephone call and the longstanding harassment of editors are each enough to earn a permanent site ban. The overwhelming evidence is that Jtydog never learns and never will learn to be civil to other editors and stop harassing them. He repeatedly returns to his vomit and I see no evidence that he will ever stop. The combination of both these modes of behavior makes a permanent site ban the only solution. The fact that this situation has been allowed to exist over such a long period despite multiple attempts to address it indicates that something is seriously wrong with the governance of Wikipedia. Xxanthippe (talk) 05:47, 1 April 2020 (UTC).
 * While I don't take any pleasure in supporting this outcome, the evidence does make it clear that this is the correct course of action. L EPRICAVARK ( talk ) 12:15, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The only sensible outcome. A 2015 arbcom block; a 2016 oversight block; and then the block for off-wiki contact that brings us here. I am worried the problematic behavior will continue because it has continued, otherwise we would not be here. Asking otherwise productive but ultimately damaging editors to leave is painful, but it is a necessary action to prevent further harm to the project and its editors. — Wug·a·po·des​ 21:03, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, the evidence presented in this case has convinced me that Jytdog is unable to work well with others. Even without the phone call, he is a poor fit for a collaborative effort like Wikipedia. I believe a site ban is necessary. Kurtis (talk) 12:54, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I support this remedy. Jytdog is, as Kurtis says, "a poor fit for a collaborative effort". This remedy might sound harsh when viewed in isolation, but for many editors, working peacefully on Wikipedia was made impossible by Jytdog and his tight-knit group of supporters, whether through blocks and bans, or hounding. We will never know how many were driven off the Project for good, but if anything about this is sad, it the loss of those editors, not this one single individual.   petrarchan47  คุ  ก   21:12, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I echo what so many others have said above. There simply is no other option but to support this remedy. Atsme Talk 📧 01:48, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The only acceptable remedy, to avoid further damage to content, to editors, and to a collaborative editing environment. The personality is not suited to a collaborative effort, and no matter the sincerity of the plea in the moment or the appearance of contrition, the destructive behaviors were always there, the risk that they will return is too great, and there is insufficient upside to justify taking this risk in terms of the quality of content contributions. It was unnecessary to treat COI, trolls or POV pushers as he treated then, but even worse, it was too natural for him to turn the same treatment he delivered to the "bad guys" on the "good guys", damaging not only content, but leading to alienation of editors and a toxic editing environment. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  06:39, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The only acceptable outcome. There must be a zero tolerance policy for tracking someone down and contacting them offline. Levivich&thinsp;[dubious – discuss] 13:07, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with Ianvector. I am particularly alarmed at Jytdog's evidence statement that it was not that bad because the other party consented to talk when asked if it was ok. Jytdog does not appear to understand the awful power dynamic and pressure of an anonymous man calling from an unknown location to a covertly identified woman in her place of work. -- Colin°Talk 20:31, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * If I'm not mistaken, I believe the recipient of the phone call was actually a man. Not that it makes any difference; calling someone using a phone number that wasn't directly provided is still an egregious invasion of privacy. Kurtis (talk) 01:51, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
 * If I'm not mistaken, I believe the recipient of the phone call was actually a man. Not that it makes any difference; calling someone using a phone number that wasn't directly provided is still an egregious invasion of privacy. Kurtis (talk) 01:51, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Sanctions are preventative
1) Sanctions are preventative, not punitive. Wikipedia is not a court of law, and does not practice retributive justice.


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 * Although I consider myself to be largely retired from Wikipedia, I've been watching this case and I feel that I want to make some proposals here. I'm offering two alternative proposed principles, and I'll explain my reasoning below. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:08, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * This is a sensible summary of the principles behind sanctions and is a good starting point for any case. --RexxS (talk) 20:33, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Punitive sanctions can be preventative
2) For severe violations of community norms, sanctions that are punitive in significant part can be necessary to ensure the prevention of future disruption.


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 * I'm workshopping two possible principles that each point in largely opposing directions, although they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I'm not endorsing either of them. I'm honestly not sure which one is right for this case. But my advice to the Committee is that this is where you ought to start, when deciding about the case. If you feel that one or the other of these principles works better for you with respect to the case evidence, then that will point you towards what subsequent decisions you should make. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:08, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * This is an interesting basis (I'm hoping you'll discuss it with me, with the proviso that you may well be playing devil's advocate, . While this wouldn't be, fundamentally, an unreasonable decision, I'd be concerned that ARBCOM would be expanding beyond their remit. The Community has, in countless cases, stated this is not how to do things - both in severe and less severe cases. ARBCOM deals with complexity, not the "most severe", so they'd be taking a different attitude to that in place. Nosebagbear (talk) 19:52, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * As I'm sure you understand, I'm trying to keep my involvement here brief, but I thank you for asking me to discuss it further with you. Let me put it this way: I'm putting two alternatives out there, and inviting the rest of you to consider whether one of them makes more sense than the other, but I'm neither advocating for the devil nor for the angels (as it were). You make an interesting point about the extent of ArbCom's remit. On the other hand, what I wrote here is a paraphrase of something that actually said to me once. I guess one way to look at it is that, if the final decision is to make the siteban permanent, a basis in principle will have to be articulated for doing so, and if that's the case, there will have to be an explicit determination that Jytdog's promises to reform are not credible. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:06, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * This is a mistake. It's simply not true that sanctions that are punitive are necessary in any circumstances. A sanction that forbids an editor from editing in future (for whatever period) is only justified when that sanction is a reasonable measure to prevent further damage to the encyclopedia. We must not impose sanctions for reasons of punishment. FWIW, it's not the job of ArbCom or the community to take on the tasks of retribution, vindication, deterrence, reformation or reparation, either. We do what is needed solely to protect Wikipedia, any other effect is purely coincidental. --RexxS (talk) 20:43, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Jytdog restricted (1)
1) Any uninvolved administrator who determines that Jytdog has violated any part of the harassment policy is authorized to issue an indefinite block without prior notice. Such blocks must be logged at WP:Arbitration enforcement log and may be appealed only to the Arbitration Committee.


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 * Again, I'm not necessarily endorsing any of the proposals here. I'm honestly not sure whether you should allow a return or not. But if (and only if) you do grant a return to editing, then you definitely need to enact some serious restrictions to prevent being back here again; in other words, enact restrictions that will allow net-positive contributions while warding off recidivism. I'm offering three possible restrictions with that in mind. I also acknowledge that there is a legitimate argument that someone who needs so many restrictions should simply not be here at all. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to avoid lengthy discussions here, but I'll make a combined reply to all of the comments so far about the three proposed remedies, and I'll somewhat arbitrarily put it here. Some editors have commented that the remedies do not address the underlying issue of Jytdog's underlying ways of thinking. I don't think that ArbCom can really remedy anyone's thought processes, but rather, they can remedy the manifestations of those thoughts as conduct. And I'm not really concerned with what might be the "standard procedure". I'm looking for ways that, if and only if Jytdog is allowed another chance, he will be doing so with some very clear boundaries in his mind at all times. Thus, he would be pushed to do the net-positive editing shown in parts of the Evidence page, while knowing very clearly what will bring the roof crashing down if he falls back on old habits, and everyone else will know exactly what to do if he does. I don't mind if some restrictions limit the amount of good editing he might do: that's a price he will have to be willing to pay if he wants to edit at all. If (and only if!) he comes back, the one thing that everyone should want is that he be forced to demonstrate good conduct and that the likelihood of bad conduct be minimized. It's not about whether an admin or an Arb will be the one who does something. It's about whether Jytdog won't do something. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:30, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * This issue with this is that is exactly what TNT did back in 2018, and they received a torrent of criticism. The outcome of this case needs to be handled by Arbcom, not left in the hands of administrators lest they receive the same response as TNT received. We see this all the time with other “unblockables.” I also think the first part of this proposal is already standard policy. Mr Ernie (talk) 09:15, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Without disagreeing, there's certainly a difference between "blocked" and "blocked but you cannot undo this." As to the merit, this seems to amount to ArbCom saying "you get one more chance then it's all over" and delegating an ArbCom block to sysops when it'd be easier to just skip this and ban by motion should the time come, per usual. ~  Amory  (u • t • c) 14:06, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Ineffective and ultimately counterproductive. ArbCom needs to act, not dump the problem back onto individual admins. Montanabw (talk) 15:44, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but no, this is not sufficient. Anything less than a full site ban would be irresponsible. Kurtis (talk) 13:02, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Impractical and not likely to work. First, tossing about the "harassment" word is apparently all the rage lately, and it would likely get tossed at him as frivolously as I've seen it used recently, creating a mess.  Second, there are plenty of ways to damage Wikipedia while flying under the radar of "harassment". For example, in something akin to "polite POV pushers", where an editor never crosses a behavioral line, while refusing to accept or understand core policies.  This sort of restriction is not enough to prevent the kind of damage done, and harassment was not the only behavioral problem.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  06:43, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Jytdog restricted (2)
2) Jytdog is placed under a WP:0RR restriction in all namespaces. Exceptions shall be allowed for self-reverts, but no other exceptions will be allowed. This restriction may be appealed to the Arbitration Committee after not less than one year.


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 * Similar reasoning as in (1): allow editing, but restrict behavior that may lead to conflicts. I'm not sure about the amount of time before appeal, which perhaps should be something else. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Not sure about this. In some subject areas this would be terribly limiting on useful editing (0RR when somebody adds obvious quackery?). I don't think Jytdog's reverting has in itself been a problem, and it doesn't apply to the specifics of the latest case. Also the perma-question about whether any edit can be a "revert" could lead to wiki-lawyering. In my view the means to damping down behaviour which leads to conflicts would be better achieved by some restriction concerning Talk pages and edit summaries. Alexbrn (talk) 15:45, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually his reverting has been an issue, see the evidence presented by Jenhawk777, Adrian J. Hunter and Julia W. Personally I don't think a 0RR on its own will do much to help matters, as the excessive reverting seems to be a symptom of the core problem (his attitude towards other people) rather than the heart of the matter. Thryduulf (talk) 18:04, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * There are many, many other useful edits Jytdog can do. There are plenty of other editors who can revert obvious quackery. He can report it to WikiProject Medicine. His repeated reverting and then templating those who revert him for edit warring and then getting angrier and angrier is a significant part of his behaviour as Thryduulf pointed out. He also did it to Beall4 and then branded her as "melting down". I agree that it is a symptom of the core problem of his attitude to other people. But if he is ever allowed back, he needs multiple restrictions to curb his impulsive and aggressive behaviour and its symptoms. Voceditenore (talk) 07:37, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Of itself, reverting the addition of unreliable or promotional medical content is a good thing, to be commended. It would be bad to have a system whereby WPMED (under strain at the best of times) was encumbered by a reporting system for routine editing jobs. Jytdog had no real problem with working with content, but with people , and I agree the reversion is just a symptom. I am beginning to think we don't need to craft anything ingenious to prevent the problem, but just do it plainly. Maybe something like "Jytdog is reminded that WP:CIVIL is a core Wikipedia policy and is required to pay scrupulous attention to abiding by it in each and every edit." (This particular wording is chosen because he also had a habit of making very intemperate comments only to redact/remove them a couple of minutes later ... but what is written cannot be so easily un-written). Alexbrn (talk) 08:00, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Alexbrn, I disagree. My diffs on the evidence page show that Jytdog can't even be trusted with reverting unreliable or promotional medical content, because his judgement on what constitutes that kind of content is skewed, heavy-handed, aggressive, and uncooperative. He will go back to reverting minor breeches of MEDRS as if the world is on fire, and will argue for every revert he makes, saying it was warranted; the last thing we want is to turn his less reasonable reverts into a topic of discussion every time he makes one. If he comes back at all and is allowed to edit, I agree that 0RR is more tolerable than fighting with him over his aggressive viewpoint on what can or cannot be left in an article for 10 minutes. Julia\talk 14:55, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Editors are never going to agree 100% on content, but Jytdog had a good nose for content in my experience. In the general way of things, the onus is on the editor wanting an edit to gain consensus for their desired change, so disruption will only flare up if such an editor reverts Jytdog's revert rather than following, say, WP:BRD. Looking at your edits, I see this type of re-reversion is what you did. including content that is questionable (Clovis Oncology's commercial site, particularly). The edit warring, which takes two, was thus underway. What would make the situation less problematic would be if Jytdog observed to the letter the strictures in WP:CIVIL - editors unfamiliar with this should remind themselves of it, it's really quite specific. (Looking at edits from the time of your evidence, I'd add your own flavour of interaction probably didn't help to calm things.) Alexbrn (talk) 15:32, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * You obviously didn't read my statement. I did NOT add Clovis's website to that page. If you're going to argue on his behalf here then you should familiarise yourself with complaints against him first. Julia\talk 15:41, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I was referring to the diff I linked, which included a citation to clovisoncology.com. Alexbrn (talk) 15:56, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Jytdog had "reverted" my original edits, but actually removed additional content at the same time (without saying so), that had never been added by me. I was not intentionally adding that material. And in this edit, when I realised, I removed it, and he still reverted me. Julia\talk 17:01, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Editors are responsible for the material they add. To bring this back to the point: Jytdog was an editor with ~ 90,000 mainspace edits, and no evidence has been presented that his reversions (just considered as reversions) were significantly problematic. This is not to excuse behaviour around the reversions. But we should sculpt remedies to address the particular core problem not (as has it) a "symptom" of that core problem. Alexbrn (talk) 17:19, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Responsible for the material they add...which includes accurate edit summaries. You appear to be censuring Julia W for taking Jytdog’s edit summary at face value. Obviously, that isn’t a very good idea, but wikipejans are, IMS, encouraged to assume good faith until proven elsewise. Qwirkle (talk) 15:58, 31 March 2020 (UTC)


 * you aren't listening. Julia W, Jenhawk777 and Adrian J Hunter all added evidence that Jytdog's reversions were problematic. Julia W has just reiterated this with additional explanation and you are still not hearing it. When I say it's a symptom of the core problem, I do not meant that the symptoms are not themselves problematic, because they are. My point is that tacking the symptoms piecemeal will not resolve the core problem. Thryduulf (talk) 19:15, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh I'm listening, but not agreeing (about reversions). Reversion of problematic edits is for the good of the Project, even if the editor being reverted objects, and that is what I am seeing Jytdog did. I agree however a piecemeal approach is futile which is why I am proposing this remedy be rooted in core policy rather than trying something indirect. Alexbrn (talk) 20:33, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Reversion of problematic edits is usually (but not always, sometimes editing to fix the problem is better) good for the project, but reverting unproblematic edits is almost always bad for the project (the exceptions mostly being related to socks of blocked or banned editors). The edits jytdog reverted were a mix of good, bad and not clearly good or bad, and he frequently showed no ability and/or desire to distinguish between them which meant at times his reversions were a very significant detriment to the encyclopaedia. Thryduulf (talk) 20:44, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Editing to fix the problem is sometimes better, but the excellent is the enemy of the good. Perhaps I missed it in the case evidence, but could you provide a couple of reversion diffs which amount unambiguously to a "very significant detriment to the encyclopaedia"? (I confess I may have mistaken the significance of the religious edits because this is an area I am entirely unfamiliar with). Alexbrn (talk) 21:00, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not so much the individual edits in isolation but the pattern of editing and the effect of the cumulative reverts and following people around and reverting all their edits even when they've fixed the apparent problems, and the inconsistency of what he edit wars to keep in and out of articles. Don't just look at the diffs, read why those diffs are being presented and how that made the editors trying in good faith to improve the encyclopaedia feel. Thryduulf (talk) 01:04, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with Alex. Religion is an area I stay away from aside from some WP:FTN posts, so it's possible I missed something there. That said, even though you're describing WP:TE editing (which I know the difficulties of portraying), we are at ArbCom. We really need direct evidence to cite rather than how people feel or why they included diffs given the "muddy water" issue I've been spending some time on to make sure we separate the wheat from the chaff to address what really stands out. Is there maybe something where Jytdog wasn't following WP:ONUS policy when it comes to edit warring/consensus needs? Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:18, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I am not an administrator, but I am an "other" and Alexbrn's request is unintentionally directly at me. I posted two examples with difs on the evidence page that don't require a background in religion to understand. Skim over the specific issues being discussed, they don't matter.  Focus on the fact that Jytdog bypassed Wykipedia policy by deleting the entire content of an article that consensus voted to keep. When called on it, he said he didn't care. That should matter to anyone who upholds Wikipedia's policies regardless of topic. Someone apparently restored most of it--I'm assuming that was after Jytdog left--because the article is currently about 75% my material--the same material that he deleted.   If this is a decent article--though I never got to polish it--it would not be in the encyclopedia at all if Jytdog had gotten his way.  That might qualify as an example of a detriment to the encyclopedia.
 * The second example was included as an example of how Jytdog would make up his mind about something or someone, fly off the handle, and refuse to listen or compromise and how intimidating that is to newcomers who's loss may or may not be seen as detrimental to the encyclopedia. Again, the topic doesn't matter. What mattered was that it was an example that trying to talk to Jytdog--offering explanation or asking him for explanation, or instruction or help or compromise--got you nowhere. He was autocratic. It was his way or nothing.
 * Before I had to cut the number of words, I had another set of difs where Jytdog called me dishonest because he reverted so fast that even he misunderstood what was happening! I went to the teahouse for help, and another editor took the time to go through the entire discussion between us, publicly told him he was wrong and I had not done what he accused me of. That's what it took--days of distraction for me and another editor not writing on the encyclopedia, but refereeing this kind of nonsense instead. Tht seems pretty detrimental to the encyclopedia to me. Jytdog and I once had a week long disagreement with me repeatedly asking why everything had to be organized by category--his way--instead of by topic which was mine.  I could find no policy on that--but I got reverted for not following his protocol. That behavior should matter to all, and it shouldn't be affected by however esoteric the topic may seem.  There were 7 editors who posted the same kinds of experiences with him, and I could have written a lot more if I hadn't been told to cut my word count. I never took him to arbitration because I was warned that Jytdog would get off no matter what he did. I was hoping his leaving was proof Wikipedia was actually better than they had perceived.  I am still hoping.  Please be better. Please care--whatever the topic, Jytdog is a bully. Jenhawk777 (talk) 08:46, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

This is a discussion specifically about whether/how reversion restrictions should be an aspect of a remedy. Taking your statement as a starting point, for religious topics, in counterpoint what I am also seeing from the evidence phase is a statement from saying "Jytdog was trying to keep these articles neutral and encyclopedic, perhaps their manner was a little abrupt or rude at times but I think they were protecting the encyclopedia from inappropriate content. [...] I only observed what they did on these articles on religion, where I felt their contributions were valuable", and from  saying "... he didn't always get his way either even if he often was right when contesting material that seemed to promote non-scholarly views. Some of his edits were reverted by other editors when he had to stop to avoid warring." Leaving aside the behaviour questions, it would therefore seem that content-wise reversions here were within the space where reasonable people may disagree, and that consensus prevailed. This is not to excuse behavioural problems but it seems to me curtailing Jytdog's content editing risks curtailing what would potentially be most useful to the Project. But we do need content disputes to be conducted in a civil manner. Alexbrn (talk) 09:28, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * You're right, Smeat's response is correct and applicable in some cases. Some of the reverts Jytdog made were appropriate and the result between us was better content. If that had been accomplished in a civil manner I wouldn't be here.  Others reverted me on occasion-- and  included--but they always worked things through with compromise and respect. It was a pleasure working with them both even when we disagreed. However, Smeat came late to the party, and they were unaware of most of what had transpired between Jytdog and I and their claim is therefore also incorrect in other cases. For example, how could Jytdog defending keeping an article as is that was tagged for bias have been about maintaining neutrality?
 * As to Jytdog not getting his way, that's only correct in the short term. Jytdog always managed to eventually. Jytdog was the only vote to delete on the Afd of the Ethics article, so he didn't get his way, true. Then he deleted content and managed getting what he wanted anyway.  Consensus did not prevail.
 * Jytdog is a quality writer, and many of his edits improved the encyclopedia, there is no doubt. I agree. If you could reinstate him so that he is allowed to write without being allowed to revert others directly--limiting his reverts--perhaps requiring him to bring all questionable material to the talk page first where consensus could be gained, then somehow enforcing abiding by that consensus, then even I would agree that he would be an asset to the project. Something needs to be done to protect others from his bullying--surely no one disputes that--and if that could be accomplished, the positive he has to offer is pure gold. Jytdog is an excellent writer. He is also a bully. All I ask is that you take both those things into consideration when making the decision here. I interpret Thryduulf as asking the same thing: make provision for both the qualities Jytdog has, not just one. To do that, some kind of reversion restriction seems inevitable. Jenhawk777 (talk) 16:23, 31 March 2020 (UTC)


 * For once, I partially agree with Jytdog’s supporters, but not for all of the same reasons. This sort of restriction is ineffective, unworkable, and sets a bad precedent. It is basically a boomerang of the tactics Jytdog uses to shut down all discussion and debate. While a 1RR restriction can be useful in editing disputes, imposing a 0RR eliminates even vandal patrol. It is not something we’d want to become a regular sanction for others.   Montanabw (talk) 15:49, 31 March 2020 (UTC)


 * While I could be open to some sort of revert restriction, I'm not seeing an FoF that we could use to justify and craft one on. For example, if there were multiple WP:ONUS violations by Jytdog, then something like an onus restriction could be implemented (i.e., no reverting content back in). I've run into a lot of editors that violate that policy though and continue edit warring, so it gets trickier to figure out a sanction there (i.e., what to do when someone is frequently having to respond to edit war prone editors vs. being the source of the issue). That said, it's probably better to focus on other established issues at this time. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:39, 1 April 2020 (UTC)


 * There's plenty of evidence to support an 0RR restriction, just as there is to support a restriction on hatting discussions and other past misconduct and abuses. But I don't think analyzing his past misconduct and applying bandaids would be productive or useful. Coretheapple (talk) 22:34, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Coretheapple, what would you consider to be more than a bandaid?
 * Kingofaces43, I don't believe Jytdog was ever responding to edit war prone editors. In my two years of harassment from him, I don't believe he and I ever once got into an actual edit war. We fought on the Talk page. I do know his methods of speedy mass reverting tended to evoke that response from others, but I doubt they were like that with anyone else.
 * If there is no way to figure out a way to allow him to edit again with realistically enforceable restrictions, then the only other option is the truly sad and painful one: a ban. What other options are there? Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:52, 2 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Replying to your question: the only viable option is a site ban. I appreciate Tryptofish putting these out for discussion but there is simply no alternative. Coretheapple (talk) 13:19, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * . Thank you for your response and your straightforward reasoning.Jenhawk777 (talk) 07:47, 3 April 2020 (UTC)


 * As I stated above, there are plenty of ways to damage a collaborative environment without ever reverting an edit, and this would not address the behavioral problem. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  06:46, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh he reverted me plenty! Take a look at the evidence I offer on the evidence page and discussed above.  He would mass revert, but I learned not to repost and edit war with him. I warred on the Talk page instead.  Others got really really tired of it, and complained, but what other option did I have?  Slink away cowed and repentant for daring to question his right to rule all things on Wikipedia?  But it became clear to me that my efforts to not be disruptive were disruptive, so not editing at all eventually seemed my only choice. That's one of the reasons why I am so interested in the outcome of this case. The other reason is that I was assured nothing would ever happen to Jytdog if I attempted arbitration--that it would boomerang back on me.  So I am really focused on whether or not ArbCom will actually act, since it is beginning to look as if the consensus opinion is a full site ban. What do you think?  Will they?  Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:00, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This is not the place for me to respond to that question,, other than to say that I have full confidence in ArbCom, and I am acutely aware that they most likely understand that whether or not to site ban Jytdog is only the tip of a very problematic iceberg. There is quite often much more than meets the eye in complex cases. I believe the arbs will seek the best resolution to protect content, to protect editors and to protect Wikipedia. If their solution is not our desired outcome, we have to assume they are operating on factors that not everyone is aware of; should that occur, please don't assume they haven't "heard" the community. We have some very astute arbs, who have been 'round these blocks many times.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  19:27, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you . I can live with that. I even think I am beginning to feel the same way--I mean--we are here aren't we? That in itself supports what you say. I guess I just wanted to hear someone else affirm that.  The wheels may turn slowly but they do turn.  That's what I care about--not a particular outcome.  So I am glad for your response. It has encouraged my faith in Wikipedia much of which I had lost. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:38, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Jytdog restricted (3)
3) Jytdog is restricted to no more than 25 edits per 24 hours, in all namespaces and regardless of the nature of the edit. This restriction may be appealed to the Arbitration Committee after not less than one year.


 * Comment by Arbitrators:
 * I understand your reasoning but I really don't care for this type of restriction as they tend to cause more problems than they solve. Something like this can be gamed from either direction Beeblebrox (talk) 22:37, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * What I mean is restrictions with numerical limits. They tend to become traps that cause drama. While we sometimes use sanctions that limit reverts, limiting total edits across all all namespaces just feels like it would be very problematic. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:05, 31 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * This is unconventional, but please hear me out about it. As someone who worked with him for a long time, I actually think that this may be the single most useful restriction you can make, if (and only if) you let him come back. There is a consistent pattern to Jytdog's conduct, all over the Evidence page. He starts out making positive contributions, but gets progressively more and more worked up and that sometimes leads to the kind of bad conduct supposedly in defense of the project that is in evidence. Slow him down, and make him think hard before hitting "save". The number 25 is arbitrary and could certainly be something else, but it needs to be on the low side, and as in (2), one year could also be something else. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * While I don't disagree it could theoretically help, edit rate isn't the issue here, editing behavior is. Agree with Zaphod above that it'd just be more trouble that it's worth. ~  Amory  (u • t • c)
 * I understand the rationale behind this suggestion, and I appreciate the reason for it, but the obvious response is if this editor is so terrible that he has to be restricted like this, if he can't control himself, wouldn't it be better just to separate him from the project? Forgive me for stating the obvious. Coretheapple (talk) 20:28, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Beeblebrox, re: I really don't care for this type of restriction as they tend to cause more problems than they solve -- has anything like that ever been tried? I can't think of any instances offhand.  I'll stay neutral on this specific instance but there have been other cases where I was sure something like it would do some good. 2601:648:8202:96B0:E0CB:579B:1F5:84ED (talk) 06:27, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * There is precedent for editing rate restrictions. The only examples I can immediately bring to mind are related to (suspected) automated editing, e.g. MZMcBride - see Requests for arbitration/MZMcBride; and particularly BetaCommand (AKA Δ) - See Requests for arbitration/Betacommand 2. The latter especially did not work well - see Arbitration/Requests/Case/Betacommand 3. I think there have been more recent ones too but I might be misremembering. Thryduulf (talk) 14:40, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thryduulf, thanks, though those examples are unconvincing because they didn't try to limit editing to anywhere near thoughtful human speed (they might have slowed some bots down slightly). And in Δ's case the limit was exceeded without consequence many times, so it's hard to see how it caused more problems than it solved.  That said, 25 edits/day sitewide is awfully low (I made the above post in 1 edit, but then used 2 more fixing indentation and a typo that I missed during preview) and makes it impossible to participate in any discussions.  And a higher number doesn't serve the intent of the proposal.  So the proposal doesn't sound promising.  2601:648:8202:96B0:E0CB:579B:1F5:84ED (talk) 18:37, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * If you're woried about this restriction being under-endforced, and edit filter could be written to enforce it. * Pppery * it has begun... 19:09, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure, we could craft a filter, but we don't need a fine-grained arms race between Wikipedia and problematic editors. A custom filter-enforced restriction on Jytdog would only incentivize him to further sharpen his cunning bullying tactics. When an editor can scare away others in 100 edits a day, he can do the same job, perhaps even more effectively, in 25 edits a day with surgical precision strikes. A site ban is the only appropriate remedy. — JFG talk 03:42, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I would like to thank User:Tryptofish for an honorable effort to find a solution to a problem that can't be solved. There have been other editors who have been differently problematic than Jytdog, who have provided different inextricable mixes of good and bad, but unacceptable amounts of bad.  In the previous cases (which I won't list here), there have been efforts to minimize the damage done by difficult editors while keeping them contributing to the encyclopedia.  Unfortunately, it has proved necessary for the community to cut its losses by cutting the problematic editor.  The problem is different than with other problematic editors, but the sad answer is that complex remedies don't work.  Robert McClenon (talk) 23:08, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Robert, thank you very much for saying that. I appreciate it very much. Although this page ought not to be a vote, I've been reading the comments by other editors, I have to say sadly that I find the argument made by above in support of a siteban to be very astute and convincing. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:48, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I wanted to add my thanks to Robert McClenon's. I appreciate Tryptofish's workshoping very much. Coretheapple (talk) 17:47, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This is the worst possibility of the three proposals, because of the sheer amount of damage Jytdog could do with this many edits a day. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  06:48, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

2020 definition of harassment
1) Editors who welcome private communication typically post their preferred contact information on Wikipedia, sometimes enabling email through the Wikipedia interface. Contacting an editor using any other contact information, without first obtaining explicit permission, should be assumed to be uninvited and, depending on the context, may be harassment. Never contact another editor in this way as part of a dispute, or when the editor has asked not to be contacted that way. Unexpected contact using personal information as described above in Posting of personal information may be perceived as a threat to the safety and well-being of the person being contacted. (text from WP:OWH introduced Jan 21, 2019 after the original case).


 * Comment by Arbitrators:


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * This would be the creation of a new harassment policy, and is outside the power and mandate of ARBCOM. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:22, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually nevermind, it's at WP:OWH. However, this is 1) not a definition of harassment 2) it was not added to WP:OWH in 2020. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:24, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the header is just to clarify what the "current day" part of the policy is and that is has been updated in 2019 as stated in the main text. That's definitely something arbs can tweak if they have a better header idea if they use it. Definitely not meant to create anything new. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:29, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Preventative sanctions
2) WP:PREVENTATIVE is policy. When it is clear an editor intends not to engage in an inappropriate activity again, sanctions generally are meant to allow the editor to to demonstrate to the community they are capable of handling work on the encyclopedia while avoiding areas they have had issues with while preventing disruption. This can allow the community to assess if preventative measures are still required at a future date.


 * Comment by Arbitrators:


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:

Unsolicited contact
1) Jytdog called Beall4 without permission.


 * Comment by Arbitrators:


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * As proposer. This at least gets to the core of what led to this case without additional speculation or trying to reanalyze complicated old disputes. Even though Jytdog says in their evidence they asked right away in a phone call if Beall4 wanted to talk, calling someone who hasn't expressly given their phone number goes against our norms. There hasn't been any hard evidence presented that would suggest malice rather than a good faith if misguided attempt at resolving a dispute either though. That was still crossing the line, but also shouldn't be treated as much more extreme phone harassment either as I've seen some comments somehow hinting at gender, etc.
 * If anything for FOF for this topic is going to be fleshed out more, that should probably be left to arbs, etc. who are privy to the more sensitive details that us regular editors shouldn't be delving into beyond this fact. In real-life as a researcher, there's no problem with me trying to find contact info for someone who said they organized part of a conference and were easily identifiable if I wanted to get in touch with them (and I won't go into more detail than that given the private nature of this case to avoid outing). That's what phone books and listing yourself as a coordinator for symposia, etc. are intended for. That "freedom to contact" does not mesh well when editing Wikipedia though, in part because of how bad stalking and harassment has historically been that a hard line needs to be taken, even if it has some good-faith bycatch. That applies even if someone practically announces who they are on-wiki. Back when this occurred, WP:OWH did not reflect this, but today, it is much more explicit, so the hard-line dynamic is something the community has been wrestling with. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:46, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Aspersions
2) Editors have repeatedly cast aspersions related to this case about Jytdog and those trying to address issues with Jytdog’s behavior as “supporters” or “enablers”. Aspersions about gender have also been common.
 * Comment by Arbitrators:
 * Comment by parties:
 * Comment by others:
 * As proposer. I moved this sentence out of the main FOF to focus more on fact, but these behaviors have significantly limited the community’s ability to discuss Jytdog in noticeboards in a meaningful manner. This is in part due to others furthering a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality that polarizes discussions through rhetoric, not evidence. This makes it difficult to address legitimate issues with Jytdog's behavior since it muddies the water so much. The comments about “supporters” or “enablers” misrepresents what other editors are doing that are trying to address what Jytdog’s editing and other editors involved in disputes. The gender comments are also serious allegations or allusions, yet those arguments have boiled down to the editor simply being female without showing that gender was ever an issue. We need to be wary of that sort of sexism just as much as we need to be wary about legitimate gender-based stalking, which doesn’t seem to have been evidenced here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:52, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This goes too far and ignores the elephant in the room. When that many women are targeted, a spade is a spade. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  07:04, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * As proposer. I moved this sentence out of the main FOF to focus more on fact, but these behaviors have significantly limited the community’s ability to discuss Jytdog in noticeboards in a meaningful manner. This is in part due to others furthering a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality that polarizes discussions through rhetoric, not evidence. This makes it difficult to address legitimate issues with Jytdog's behavior since it muddies the water so much. The comments about “supporters” or “enablers” misrepresents what other editors are doing that are trying to address what Jytdog’s editing and other editors involved in disputes. The gender comments are also serious allegations or allusions, yet those arguments have boiled down to the editor simply being female without showing that gender was ever an issue. We need to be wary of that sort of sexism just as much as we need to be wary about legitimate gender-based stalking, which doesn’t seem to have been evidenced here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:52, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This goes too far and ignores the elephant in the room. When that many women are targeted, a spade is a spade. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  07:04, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Resolving disputes
Jytdog is capable of interacting in collegial disputes 


 * Comment by Arbitrators:
 * Comment by parties:
 * Comment by others:
 * As proposer. This is not intended to say there have never been issues, but this semi-"recent" AN thread caught my eye with the close Mostly a misunderstanding. Jytdog and Slatersteven are to be commended for actually listening instead of endless escalation. This is just to highlight that this is how disputes should be resolved if Jytdog comes back both as advice to Jytdog and other editors. It definitely takes two cooperative editors to do so though. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:21, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This feels like "Damning with faint praise". Sandy Georgia (Talk)  06:55, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It took an AN drama to resolve this matter, which is not my idea of "interacting in a collegial manner."  Coretheapple (talk) 17:51, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This feels like "Damning with faint praise". Sandy Georgia (Talk)  06:55, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It took an AN drama to resolve this matter, which is not my idea of "interacting in a collegial manner."  Coretheapple (talk) 17:51, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Community ability to address issues
Editors in dispute with Jytdog have frequently used administrative noticeboards to seek sanctions regardless of validity.(see evidence analysis section): In the most extreme cases, this has led to editors needing to be banned from interacting with Jytdog due to WP:HOUNDING. This tendency has disrupted administrative discussions for:


 * 1) Cases when another editor's behavior was at issue in an area Jytdog was editing.


 * 1) Cases when Jytdog's actions were considered minor, or a more serious issue was present, but was the complainant was excessively escalating or exacerbating the issue, which prevented Jytdog's behavior from being addressed in more a reasonable manner.


 * Comment by Arbitrators:


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * As proposer. This is a little longer explanation, but this is also finally a time when I can formally air (and maybe somewhat finalize) the issues I or others have been forced to deal with or clean up that have been associated with Jytdog being in topics, but are generally caused by other editors. I expect this one may need some condensing if arbs used it, but and I’m not asking arbs to weigh every single case in that list. This is to give a potential framework for addressing how much Jytdog was an issue vs. others being the primary source of disruption outside of blocking instances (which may be a much more focused way to examining Jytdog’s behavior than this). Arbs could definitely pull from other evidence to fill this in more if need be since this isn't meant to be exhaustive.
 * If we get outside the phone call subject and into general history, this is a concept that needs to be weighed to sort out legitimate issues from those based more in Jytdog being hounded though. This is based on wbm1058's evidence section and analysis of it since that has been the focus of evidence so far. This is proposed because how often others have pointing to Jytdog being mentioned a lot at ANI insinuating he has frequently been disruptive when it’s usually a case of Jytdog dealing with a disruptive editor lashing out.


 * In many of the cases, editors want to sanction Jytdog for going through generally the correct channels on dealing with disruptive behavior by the editor. This is a form of WP:IDHT violation where editor A is often disruptive, is called out on an issue by editor B (whether appropriately or not), and A lashes out projecting a battleground mentality onto editor B. If you edit as much as Jytdog did in controversial areas, it's not difficult to accumulate incidents like that. They then can act as periphery editors in future noticeboards as a WP:BLUDGEON casting WP:ASPERSIONS about past disputes or omitting key details because they aren't the focus of the report (e.g., saying Jytdog brought them to COIN without mentioning a COI was actually found, nominating an essay for deletion as bullying when the essay/the editor was found disruptive, etc.). In the above principle evidence, you can also find multiple cases where the disruptive editor tried to claim harassment merely because they were sanctioned. This happens so often that others just linking to an editor saying Jytdog harassed them is not enough for ArbCom.
 * Case 2 gets in to when Jytdog had a legitimate issue though. I won’t get into the clear cut issues that I’m sure arbs will flesh out on their own, but this is tailored to more complicated ones. This case on Yakult had issues with Jytdog calling the article shit. However, they immediately reverted that after realizing it was out of line. Not good, but at least they were self-policing that “venting” problem. This is the one where Andy Digley was I-banned for hounding Jytdog. The community generally agreed Andy was needlessly escalating this and previous situations. That kind of hounding can rightfully get Jytdog frustrated, and it makes trying to give guidance for improvement difficult after the fact and goes down a negative feed-back route. Jytdog is still responsible for their behavior, but we also have to acknowledge at the same time the community's failure to address the atmosphere the contributes to many (though not all) cases where Jytdog has acted out.
 * I don't think we're ever going to solve this general problem, especially at ArbCom, but that is something we have to account for when looking at evidence presentation, sorting out actual problems from noise, and considering if a lower bar for sanctions is needed in an area to crack down on battleground grudges. That should never be misconstrued as trying to protect an editor from sanctions on their own behavior either. This point ends my main interest in this case because Jytdog is pretty much on his own when it comes to remedies and arbs. The problem I ran into more than anything was was not Jytdog, but how much topics/noticeboards were disrupted by other editors because Jytdog was there regardless of whether he was the issue or not. Since we’re talking about Jytdog, I’m hoping that can at least be acknowledged for all us who have had to clean up the after effects regardless of who was doing it. That can matter for if Jytdog can return too, but at this point, my interest is mostly in damage done to topics by people pursuing Jytdog. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:49, 2 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I noticed in perusing the diffs above a reference to the Charlie Gard case, which reminded me of a post Jytdog put on my talk page when I commenced editing that article:

"I will warn you this one time, that the GANG behavior and personal attacks that I tolerate from you at WT:COI, I will not tolerate in mainspace. Please do not continue that behavior there. Jytdog (talk) 00:27, 1 August 2017 (UTC)"
 * This is the kind of routine harassment to which Jytdog subjected other editors constantly over the years, such that it became expected of him, Note if you look at the next diff on my talk page I simply removed Jytdog's WP:BAITING without an edit summary or saying anything further. I took no action, because I knew that Jytdog had absolute impunity to act this way, that plenty of editors had his back no matter what he did, and that bringing the matter to a noticeboard would be futile. Coretheapple (talk) 00:25, 3 April 2020 (UTC)


 * There is too much speculation in this finding, because one can never know how things would have, could have, might have gone for many other editors if they had had a different Wikipedia experience than encountering Jytdog. Also, one knows not how many people supporting Jytdog's side of the story at ANI might now be inclined to see things differently. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  07:03, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Jytdog contact banned
1) Jytdog is banned from contacting Wikipedia editors through Wikipedia's email system or any other communication methods within Wikipedia's purview for 6 months. Jytdog is prohibited from initiating off-wiki contact with any editor regarding an on-wiki matter unless it is explicitly invited. This excludes emails to someone in an administrative capacity (e.g. oversight). Outside of normal editing, they are expected to only be in contact with editors through talk pages.


 * Comment by Arbitrators:


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * As proposer. This should address WP:PREVENTATIVE privacy concerns without violating the policy by adding in more that wouldn't change anything on that front. 6 months is arbitrary for me, and I could see arbs wanting to discuss changing length of a sanction, etc. Either way, there needs to be some kind of sanction that solidifies that last sentence in this proposed remedy, so this is one route I've seen proposed in past discussions that arbs could partially spingboard off of or tailor for crafting a more finalized remedy in the proposed decision. This is in part meant to dovetail with the proposal below to keep Jytdog focused on content areas. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:21, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Any restriction like this needs to be carefully worded so as to allow for exceptions for contact with other people who happen to be Wikipedia editors for reasons unrelated to Wikipedia (e.g. if he happens to be real-life friends with, or work with, someone else who edits Wikipedia). It is also (I believe) not within arbcom's remit to prohibit his attendance at meetups, editathons, conferences, etc. (whether he is welcome there is a matter for the WMF and/or organisers). Thryduulf (talk) 22:49, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah, those sorts of details can definitely be hammered out in this drafting stage or by arbs in their final version since I hadn't thought of meetups, etc. (not sure if that's a something Jytdog does). I tweaked it all little bit to say "and systems within Wikipedia's purview" (i.e., calling an editor they are not acquainted with in real-life is under purview per in terms of the updated harassment policy). I'll probably leave it be until later as more ideas come in. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:55, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Might it be simpler just to say Jytdog is prohibited from initiating off-wiki contact with any editor unless it is explicitly invited? Alexbrn (talk) 10:47, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * "Jytdog is prohibited from initiating off-wiki contact with any editor regarding an on-wiki matter unless it is explicitly invited" might work, as he may interact with other editors (who he may not even know are editors) for entirely unrelated matters. Thryduulf (talk) 14:24, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I like that one. I've gone ahead and added it. In a way, that could apply to meetups if that becomes a thing (i.e., register for an event and you are "approved" or invited in a sense), but I don't think that needs to be a focus. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:01, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I disagree with this remedy. It doesn't make sense to me that the remedy for someone initiating uninvited off wiki contact is to prohibit them from initiating uninvited off wiki contact. This is just restating the rule that was broken. Also, this doesn't address the larger issues, like the years-long pattern of aggressiveness, of which this incident was only the latest episode (see evidence page cataloguing years of incidents). Levivich&thinsp;[dubious – discuss] 14:12, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * "Inappropriate or unwanted public or private communication" is contrary to policy, but not all forms of communication. According to Jytdog he has contacted people in the past with a good outcome. This remedy would prohibit any such "reaching out". Alexbrn (talk) 15:00, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * According to Jytdog he has contacted people in the past with a good outcome. What about according to the people he contacted? Which editors have said "I'm so glad Jytdog found my phone number and called me at work"? Levivich&thinsp;<sup style="white-space:nowrap;">[dubious – discuss] 15:34, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The point is this remedy shuts down all uninvited (not just "unwanted") off-wiki communication, even if Jytdog think it's going to go great or that it is obviously irreproachable. I think that would be helpful to do. Alexbrn (talk) 15:41, 30 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Would not solve all of the problems, as there were behavioral issues beyond the contact. And he has demonstrated not to stick to promises.  Too great of a risk.  And, even if he does stick to contact banned, there are still too many other ways he could damage content, editors, and environment.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  07:06, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Jytdog banned from editor identity information
1) Jytdog is banned topics that directly relate to an editor's personal identifying information.


 * Comment by Arbitrators:


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * As proposer. Before this more more general privacy issue happened that doesn't really fit under COI, Jytdog was actually having an improving track record on the COI front since their return to it. Maybe language similar to it relating to To avoid ambiguity, "non-public information" includes (but is not limited to) any information about another user including legal names and pseudonyms, workplace, job title, or contact details, which that user has not disclosed themselves on the English Wikipedia or other WMF project. could be fit into this, but I usually expect arbs will craft their own tailored version, so this is the gist of it.


 * Basically, stay away from WP:COIN, anything related to IDing information, etc. and stick to content. I'm not sure what would need to be written to ensure WP:GAMING by other editors doesn't occur (e.g., someone says they work for group X in a dispute then claim Jytdog has to leave because they brought up personal information). Jytdog still did a lot of good at COIN though, so something of that nature may not need be indefinite, but I view this more as a moratorium to show their content editing after their year-long block/break before returning to areas like COIN if at all that deal with personal information correctly. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:26, 28 March 2020 (UTC)


 * This proposal, like all the others seeking to avoid a ban, disregards that for whatever reason, Jytdog cannot seem to avoid harassing other editors. That's the problem here. He promises he won't and then he does it again. Wikipedia is WP:NOTTHERAPY. We can't sit and hold his hand and hope he "gets better." Jytdog violated personal privacy not out of zealousness to "fight COI" but as part of a pattern of conduct, As for this proposal and others that relate to personal privacy, I deeply resent the implication that it is not possible to fight paid editing and COI without violating WP:OUTING or even being accused of violating WP:OUTING. I have been viciously attacked for my stance on paid editing over the years but never once was accused of outing. Coretheapple (talk) 13:38, 31 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I concur with . Jytdog has repeatedly harassed well-meaning editors, and does so on a regular and predictable cycle. He is admonished, blocked, settles down for awhile, but then starts up again. It’s “shampoo, rinse, repeat” with him.  WP’s legitimate need to police paid editing is not the same as outing random editors.  He also confuses COI with POV on a regular basis, makes false or exaggerated accusations, and repeated blocks have not resulted in changed behavior. Some of his targets may be paid to edit aggressively, and yes, they need to be banned, but vigilante action is not the way to go about it. But more often, Jytdog’s targets are simply the over-enthusiastic, some with a true COI who just don’t  “get” it, and there an appropriate admin block delivers a better cluebat than being called out of the blue by a stranger.  Jytdog’s biggest problem, though, is that he harasses people who, at most have a peripheral COI and a passionate belief.  Jytdog’s persistent belief in naming and shaming has crossed the line too many times.  Montanabw (talk) 15:30, 31 March 2020 (UTC)


 * And just so it's clear, these are proposed as part of a last-chance scenario for Jytdog among other possible remedies that could/should be added if they are allowed back. I'm not sure even sure if Jytdog coming back is the best scenario, but we need to do it right, and that's up to Jytdog and arbs mostly on the final decision. If they violate these, they're gone for good regardless of problems with other editors. The other editor problem is an issue, but me focusing on that due to how much disruption I've experienced or what actual evidence said while others already fleshed out the Jytdog problems shouldn't be considered as having "ardently defended" Jytdog if we're following WP:NPA on misrepresenting what I've actually said. If anything, that's justifying it's a problem here even more. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:58, 3 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The problems with Jytdog were not only in COIN. This would not address problems in medical content, and if you write an equivalent restriction in medical, then you've banned him from both areas where he worked.  Which = just ban him.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  07:10, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is Not Therapy
1) If an editor has behavioral problems that disrupt the collective work of creating a useful, encyclopedic reference, then the editor's participation in Wikipedia may be restricted or banned. These problems may be caused by personal immaturity, an inability to properly apply Wikipedia's policies, poor social skills, or other reasons.

2) When efforts to ameliorate editor misconduct are ineffective, action must be taken to stop the disruption of the encyclopedia. This requires that Wikipedia editors accept our limitations at changing behavior or policing it, admit that we are not equipped to engage in extended efforts to change or improve someone's behavior, and follow the usual procedures to request a block or ban. Ultimately, it is not the responsibility of the community to develop or enforce a plan that enables the editor to be successful.

3) When efforts to control the editor's behavior come to naught, ultimately the community will protect the encyclopedia by terminating the editor's participation in the project.


 * Comment by Arbitrators:


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * As proposer. Copied from WP:NOTTHERAPY. I think that this addresses the underlying issues dealt with ad nauseum in the Evidence. Coretheapple (talk) 13:47, 31 March 2020 (UTC) I agree in the main with 's suggestion and have added a third clause. I realize this is somewhat long for a proposal but this is a workshop after all, and I'm touching on a general area that thus far has not been dealt with. Coretheapple (talk) 16:53, 31 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Useful, but I’d add “...if disruptive behavior is not controlled, ultimately the community will protect the encyclopedia by restricting the editor's participation in the project.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Montanabw (talk • contribs) 15:55, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Good principle to be reminded of. The community's willingness to help members understand and remedy issues with their behaviour has reached a hard limit in this case. Further hand-holding may be counterproductive both to the project and to the individual. — JFG talk 07:28, 1 April 2020 (UTC)


 * This used to be called exhausting the community's patience. 2601:640:104:9AD1:7B47:57EE:EFA8:DBC3 (talk) 07:57, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, that sounds familiar. I quoted from WP:NOTTHERAPY because it squarely addressed editors with long-term behavioral issues who are given multiple chances. Coretheapple (talk) 16:29, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Purpose of Wikipedia
The purpose of Wikipedia is to create a high-quality, free-content encyclopedia in an atmosphere of camaraderie and mutual respect among contributors. Contributors whose actions are detrimental to that goal may be asked to refrain from them, even when these actions are undertaken in good faith; and good faith actions, where disruptive, may still be subject to sanctions.
 * Comment by Arbitrators:


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * Taken verbatim from the recently closed Motorsports case. I think it is important this be included as Jytdog's motiviation seems to be to impove the encyclopedia. That others disagree with him about whether his desired outcome is an improvement and/or whether his actions will achieve an improvement is beside this point. Thryduulf (talk) 15:12, 1 April 2020

Decorum
Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct including, but not limited to, personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment (including Outing) and disruptive point-making is prohibited.
 * Comment by Arbitrators:


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * Adapted slightly from the priniple passed in Motorsports, as I do not recall evidence of Jytdog engaging in (intenional) trolling or gaming the system and outing was not a feature of that case. I've added the "included, but not limtied to," phrasing as there is history of complaints being interpeted too narrowly by Jytdog. Thryduulf (talk) 15:12, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Consensus
Disagreements concerning article content are to be resolved by seeking to build consensus through the use of polite discussion – involving the wider community, if necessary. The dispute resolution process is designed to assist consensus-building when normal talk page communication has not worked. When there is a good-faith dispute, editors are expected to participate in the consensus-building process and to carefully consider other editors' views, rather than simply edit-warring back-and-forth between competing versions. Sustained editorial conflict is not an appropriate method of resolving content disputes.
 * Comment by Arbitrators:


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * Copied verbatim from Motorsports, although it may need tweaking as this doesn't quite hit the mark regardining Jytdog's interaction with new editors. Thryduulf (talk) 15:12, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Treatment of new editors (1)
Please do not bite the newcomers, an important guideline, reminds us that "Wikipedia articles are improved through the hard work of both regular editors and newcomers. Remember: all of us were new editors at Wikipedia once.... New members are prospective contributors and are therefore Wikipedia's most valuable resource. We must treat newcomers with kindness and patience—nothing scares potentially valuable contributors away faster than hostility. It is very unlikely for a newcomer to be completely familiar with Wikipedia's markup language and its myriad of policies, guidelines, and community standards when they start editing...".
 * Comment by Arbitrators:


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * Copied from Rhaworth. Thryduulf (talk) 15:12, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if you're planning to include an FoF related to this since this subject hasn't been discussed yet. However, knowing past examples from fringe science subjects, we'd definitely need to distinguish between instances of advocacy/soapboxing newcomers and dealing with common disruption from them vs. legitimate biting a newcomer for less serious things. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:42, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * There is no difference; if one can't deal with the fringe, advocacy, soapboxing editors without biting them, one should not be editing in that area. The (low) standard set by these bitey enforcers who overlook such behavior based on their anti-woo fervor, is then accepted  (even to the point of quoting admins and Jimbo Wales in grossly uncivil posts) and repeated by older editors, emulated by newer editors as if it were the norm, when it need not be. It is precisely this sort of acceptance of low standards that has caused an overall toxic environment in medical editing, as evidenced clearly by reading through the full links of the diffs I supply above and noticing who does and does not support gross incivility in a discussion with editors who are highly likely to have a serious mental disorder, through no fault of their own. In the same time one spends battling anti-woo, one could/should instead rewrite the article to a standard that can be upheld, or write a talk page FAQ that answers the frequent questions.  Oh, but whacking the anti-woo is so much more satisfying to those with such an inclination. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:34, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Treatment of new editors (2)
If it is necessary to comment on problematic actions, do so in a clear and polite manner. This is especially important when dealing with new editors as treating inexperienced editors with hostility can alienate a potential contributor and is therefore detrimental to the project as a whole.
 * Comment by Arbitrators:


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * This is mostly copied from Kudpung but with slight tweaks. I was considering combining this with the previous principle but I couldn't think of a way to do that without it becoming unweildy. Thryduulf (talk) 15:12, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, well done. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  07:18, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Conflicts of interest
Conflict of interest (COI) editing involves contributing to Wikipedia about oneself, family, friends, clients, employers, or financial and other relationships. Any external relationship can trigger a conflict of interest. That someone has a conflict of interest is a description of a situation, not a judgement about that person's opinions, integrity, or good faith.
 * Comment by Arbitrators:


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * Taken from the first paragraph at Conflict of interest, but reworded from first to third person. The final sentence is particularly important to stress. Thryduulf (talk) 15:12, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Dealing with conflicts of interest
The COI guidlines note that "If a user's edits lead you to believe that they might have a COI (that is, if they have an "apparent COI"), and there has been no COI disclosure, consider first whether the issue may be simple advocacy. Most advocacy does not involve COI. Whether an editor is engaged in advocacy should first be addressed at the user's talk page, then at WP:NPOVN the appropriate noticeboard."

They go on to explicitly note editors should not harass editors who might have a conflict of interest: "When investigating COI editing, do not reveal the identity of editors against their wishes. Wikipedia's policy against harassment, and in particular the prohibition against disclosing personal information, takes precedence."
 * Comment by Arbitrators:


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * Combined from various parts of the COI guidelines. Jytdog's harassment, on and off wiki, of people he suspects to have a COI is an important aspect of this case. Thryduulf (talk) 15:12, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This doesn't go far enough, but I doubt that it is in ArbCom's remit to make a Finding of fact that goes beyond what is currently stated at WP:COI. We seem to have no wording at COI to address the problem that "if you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail", which led Jytdog to see COI everywhere.  That is, how do we stop COI being weaponized to win content disputes, where an editor knows that with a COI charge leveled by Jytdog, they were likely to be hauled before noticeboards where Jytdog's views would find support, and one would end up topic banned?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:48, 3 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I’d add from WP:COI, “how close the relationship needs to be before it becomes a concern on Wikipedia is governed by common sense.” Which has been an issue with Jytdog. Also, I’d recommend a brief note referencing the language later on that page that COI and bias are two completely different things—-while you can have both, you can also have one without the other. Can’t find the diff now, but this was borne out with Jytdog someone with a strong POV based on personal experiences was accused of COI, which was taking the definition to quite an extreme (For a theoretical example, does someone who has a 1957 Chevy have a COI to the point they can’t edit 1957 Chevy?) Montanabw (talk) 20:29, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Both very good points, and ones I've tried to stress repeatedly in the past in the context of paid editing (which, contrary to some vocally expressed opinons, is not a subset of COI and/or bias - they are independent but overlapping sets). Perhaps it would be worth expanding that into a second principle? Thryduulf (talk) 22:44, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

On the meaning of Harassment
1) The Harassment policy should not be interpreted as allowing specific kinds of actions that are not explicitly listed as prohibited there. Rather, this policy provides a general prohibition of any conduct in relation to Wikipedia, on and off wiki, that can be reasonably viewed as aggressive pressure or intimidation.


 * Comment by Arbitrators:
 * I agree that no set of rules can predict in advance every possible situation that might arise. See my post here and even better, the best law review article ever. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:11, 3 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * I am proposing this principle since quite a few of Jytdog's defenders, in both the 2018 and 2020 arbitration case requests, argued that his conduct towards Beall4 should be excused since Harassment did not explicitly prohibit the specific actions he undertook in contacting her off-wiki. Nsk92 (talk) 14:27, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. This may be one of the most important things to come out of this case. I was surprised to see those claims in the original request. Mr Ernie (talk) 14:50, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I am quite concerned about how the charge of harassment has become weaponized (precisely as COI charges were weaponized under Jytdog) and used as a term to intimidate. I hope we don't further this trend, having seen the harassment word crop up recently where there is absolutely zero justification for its use.  Very careful wordsmithing is needed should the arbs make a finding in this direction. I think we have all that is needed for this case, without opening doors for further weaponization of the charge de jour which could enable others to extend it beyond the situations with the severity of this case. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:55, 3 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Here’s now I’d word it: “The Harassment policy includes, but is not limited to, specific kinds of actions that are prohibited. This policy provides a framework to evaluate if any conduct in relation to Wikipedia, on and off wiki, can be reasonably viewed as aggressive pressure or intimidation, and thus, if it constitutes prohibited behavior. Montanabw (talk) 21:32, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I like that wording. Thryduulf (talk) 22:54, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Jytdog's behavior towards female editors
1) On multiple occasions Jytdog engaged in aggressive and bullying behavior towards female editors. Diif1, Diff2, Diff3, Diff4, Diff5, Diff 6, Diff7, Diif8, and, of course, the entire Beall4 incident.


 * Comment by Arbitrators:


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * ArbCom should not be allowed to duck this issue without discussing it directly. Nsk92 (talk) 14:28, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This is only relevant if he engages significantly differently with editors who identify as female (and/or who he believes to be female) than he does with other editors. I have not looked to see if this is the case, but my gut feeling was that in relation to people he suspects to have a COI he harasses equally regardless of gender? Thryduulf (talk) 14:46, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Since I wrote the comment above, its become apparent that Jytdog's harshest behaviour does seem to have been directed at female editors disproportionately, at least in regards to content disputes (although it's not clear if this is real or a sampling bias). However I agree with Sandy Georgia and Julia W that as this case doesn't hang on determining that - his behaviour is egregiously bad enough without needing to bring gender into it that it's probably best not to feature it heavily, if at all, in the final decision. If it turns out that it is just a sampling (or similar) error then that could serve to undermine the rest of the findings unnecessarily and to the detriment of the project. Thryduulf (talk) 22:35, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This seems to be a vastly inappropriate proposal. It reads as special pleading that because editors were apparently a particular gender that those editors' behavior should not have been addressed in a generally appropriate manner for most listed diffs. Otherwise, I don't see anything that would come close to implying gender was an issue here. WP:FOLLOWING is also clear Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles.
 * You can't really get "bullying" out of most of these either since they're generally straightforward discussions about MEDRS sourcing, etc. Otherwise, this was over 5 years ago before the GMO ArbCom case where Jytdog was being hounded by multiple now banned editors (the mess of that discussed here, and this (which wasn't the full ANI) ommitted another editor actually using COI investigation as a bludgeon in content against Jytdog. disputes. It also ignores the problem that Tryptofish outlined well there: this is exactly what MjolnirPants said just above: editors with prior disagreements with Jytdog, many of their own creation and not his, refusing to let this discussion close. That attempted boomerang by Jusdafax against Jytdog was shot down hard. Kingofaces43 (talk) 14:54, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, a lot of the editors who have been the target of Jytdog's aggression detailed in the evidence section are women: Beall4, Julia W, Atsme, Jenhawk777 etc. Considering that women make up a minority of Wikipedia's editors, this is a rather striking coincidence if it is one. --Pudeo (talk) 15:04, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Pudeo, if there is evidence of actual targeted harassment due to gender, that needs to fleshed out and actually dealt with. If not, we cannot allude to things like you did. That is becoming a significant problem here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:32, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * While we have VERY GOOD evidence that Jytdog harassed a number of women-- that stands out strikingly so in an environment with so few women-- I am uncomfortable with a gender-based finding because it seems to slight any men he harassed as well. I don't know how we can single out a finding about women without hard data, but at the same time, it is going too far to fault those who point out that there is a striking number of women on this page.  We don't know what all factors might be at play with regards to the proportions.  I think the best way to accomplish what this finding would accomplish is by acknowledging that he harassed one person too many, no matter the gender, and banning him. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  07:28, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe the tone of conversation with female editors differed a little from males, but I can testify that Jytdog's threats and WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality are independent of his opponents' actual or perceived gender. He is an equal-opportunity bully. — JFG talk 09:22, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand the reluctance of some editors to make a gender-based finding, but I think the diffs show a condescending attitude and a greater tendency to gutter-level abuse when Jytdog targeted female editors. It is hard to read diff 8 without wondering if a male editor would have received a response with a torrent of f-bombs with the edit summary "fucking reply" ':"drchrissy is a guy, for what its worth. you really cannot sort out a personal attack from someone fucking cursing in frustration? and you again post yet another fucking distraction from the fucking point here, which is 'david tornheim's behavior.   i am fucking sick of his fucki0ng personal attacks. IT IS NOT FUCKING OK.  Please answer me - why do you condone and even encourage personal attacks?" Then look at the next post on that page, directed at another female editor: "yep i worked on that, and i believe you were working on the page at the same time SlimVirgin - i'm surpsised that you let it stand so long if you long if you find it problematic.. And no one fucking owns any fucking guideline or fucking policy in WP and the claim that it is 'mine' is unbefuckinglieavable."
 * When Jytdog harassed me he never used that kind of language, and I am a male. But again, I understand the reluctance. Coretheapple (talk) 14:30, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Coretheapple, to clarify, it is absolutely my personal belief and experience that Jytdog harassed and intimidated women, and was not called on it by his colleagues. But it may be that we hear from women more here because we experience harassment differently than men, because of a sense of physical vulnerability. And we don't have acceptable evidence on which to base a finding. Then, there are so many factors that would come in to play even if we did have evidence.  Are men more likely to be silent and not report harassment because they feel that being battered makes them less manly?  Are the particular kinds of men who inhabit Wikipedia more inclined towards accepting this kind of behavior from each other?  Are the men who were harassed more likely to have end up banned by the ANI circling-of-the-wagons around Jytdog so that we can't hear their voices here, while the women quietly put their heads down and waited for another day ?  (That was my approach when I faced a later-desysopped abusive admin whose invective was right up there with Jytdog's ... had I not just put my head down, he would have had me blocked or banned.)  There is just no way to quantitatively measure what we are observing in those who have weighed in on this arbcase, and I don't know what the research supports in terms of gender differences in experience of abuse.  A general finding, non-gender-specific, will get the job done here.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:07, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Since diffs from my evidence are being presented here, I will weigh in reluctantly. Like others I find the proportion of women participating here and on the evidence page with reports of foul and aggressive behaviour from Jytdog to be startling, considering that women are such a minority in the community overall. And to further that, neither COI nor medicine would particularly strike one as topic areas that are strong on female representation.
 * For my part, I firmly believe that Jytdog treated me, an established, intelligent, reasonable contributor, trusted with sysop and oversight tools, with multiple DYKs prominent on my user page, as he did solely because I am quite obviously a woman. There is very little explanation for his behaviour towards me except to believe that he assumed I would be rubbish at such a tricky and specialised topic as tyrosine kinase inhibitors, and then behaved towards me as if his biased assumption were correct. Try to imagine him going hard on a male editor with an identical history to me without any provocation; would he really choose out of the blue to cross swords with, and so overtly patronise, an obviously male oversighter with an account only 6 months younger than his?
 * Now, having said this, I agree wholeheartedly with SandyGeorgia above that Jytdog's attitude towards women is not a productive or helpful line of questioning and is quite separate from the problem we're trying to solve here. It's also not straightforward due to the multiple confounding factors present; the whole rainbow of sex and gender expression is swamped with differences in how abuse is perceived, experienced, and talked about. I'm grateful that it's been pointed out, so that the arbitrators can keep in mind that aggressiveness which may seem minor or harmless to male editors is not perceived as such by female editors, as a generalisation. But it is a generalisation and we should probably not devote further time to this speculation. <b style="color: #4B0082;">Julia</b>\talk 16:17, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * There is very little explanation for his behaviour towards me except to believe that he assumed I would be rubbish at such a tricky and specialised topic as tyrosine kinase inhibitors, and then behaved towards me as if his biased assumption were correct. Light bulb moment. I am not accustomed to thinking in gender-related ways, having spent my entire career very comfortably succeeding in male-dominated industries, but this gives me a whole new way to think about the way Jytdog treated my editing as-- like you-- an experienced, knowledgeable, MEDRS-compliant, anti-fringe editor.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  17:55, 3 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I think it is appropriate to note that while he may bully everyone, and phrasing needs to be carefully worded, yes, he does escalate his aggression toward women editors. I noticed this in my interactions with him. In debates, he tended to escalate until or unless a known-male editor would swing by and support the opposing view, at which point he would return to a more rational tone. It is true that most women “quietly put their heads down and wait for another day“ and I am known as one who doesn’t.  But he is one of the few editors where I ever felt the need to do so, as, like Sandy’s situation above, ”had I not just put my head down, he would have had me blocked or banned.” Jytdog crosses the line from bullying to intimidation at times.  Montanabw (talk) 20:50, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Jytdog's pattern of behavior
2) Jytdog has a consistent and long-term pattern of aggressive, abusive and bullying behavior towards editors who disagree with him. Diff1, Diff2, Diff3, Diff4, Diff5, Diff6, Diff7, Diff8, Diff 9, Diff 10.


 * Comment by Arbitrators:


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 * Similar to a FoF proposed by Pudeo but with a slightly different wording. Nsk92 (talk) 14:38, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It's good to see diffs at least to discuss, but it looks like the focus is just more on swear words. Diff 1 is more venting than any sort of specific bullying or abuse. A lot of us who deal with fringe issues often may vent like that, but the issue is we don't vent those frustrations on Wikipedia (or limit them to less than this). 2 and 3 were somewhat addressed above as we do have to be wary about cherrypicking the context of an editor at the height of being hounded before the ArbCom case 5 years ago. 4 was out of line venting again, but not bullying, etc. and awhile ago too. On 5, WP:BULLSHIT is a legitimate essay that was linked to (though should have been from the start). 6 seems to be dealing with a tendentious editor issue again. Subject competence can be a legitimate issue, though I haven't dug into that incident to verify. On 7, it's perfectly fine to say you polished a turd. Ideally that should be done at AfD for ones that end up deleted just to be rigorous.
 * What seems to be the main issue is Jytdog referring to articles as shit. That is not an inherent WP:CIVIL violation, though not preferred by many editors including myself. It's not gross profanity directed at an editor as WP:IUC identifies though. For instance, telling someone to "go fuck themselves up the ass" or similar(from GMOs again) has definitely gotten editors blocked for civility violations. If there was something more invective of that nature recently as opposed to colorful language not directed at editors, that would definitely support an variation of this FoF for related remedies. Otherwise it gets mired in disagreement in the community about general cursing or should be addressed under focus of Jytdog's venting edits instead (though I haven't seen evidence yet that those weren't becoming less frequent). Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:28, 2 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Sure, this is a fairly stated principle, and the difffs can be taken into consideration along with the ones provided by others in Evidence, including mine. What make these useful is that they show Jytdog's well-grounded perception of impunity and immunity from consequences, amply demonstrated here by his abusing other editors as if they were minions he could push around and fire at will. This is the behavior of a bully you might run into in a bar who has had one too many, not a Wikipedia editor who sincerely believes he is "upholding the Five Pillars." His perception of the Five Pillars is that he can say to other editors things like "do not give a flying fuck" and "shitty content " and "They refuse to 'fucking stop and fucking learn how to fucking edit.  Bloody fucking hell" and "jesus fucking christ". And that's just the first diff. The other eight are just as bad if not worse. And let's not jump to the conclusion that he was egged on into this vile language by others.


 * In that regard, I think this diff cited above as "diff 8" is important. It is Jytdog commenting at WP:AN in a subsection commenced by a female administrator. Responding to the concerns of that administrator, Jytdog unleashed an unprovoked stream of abuse: And no one fucking owns any fucking guideline or fucking policy in WP and the claim that it is "mine" is unbefuckinglieavable. The context is here. Note that in that discussion only Jytdog resorted to abuse, Note also that he directed this abuse toward an administrator in a noticeboard, for he knew perfectly well that there would be no consequences. Coretheapple (talk) 17:23, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Just a note for arbs that the above commenced by a female administrator by Coretheapple is another example of aspersions/dog-whistle in this case. That kind of invective from them is starting to be a concerning trend in this case. That administrator was also hounding Jytdog and others in those related discussions when you follow through them (gender was never an issue) to the point those discussions led to me proposing the current GMO aspersions principle. To cherrypick right when that badgering from multiple editors got to Jytdog at the height of the GMO ArbCom beginning without context is misleading. Doesn't excuse Jytdog, but the stuff going on that that time would try even a sage's patience and significantly changes where the majority of preventative action needed to be better focused. Not to mention this isn't an unresolved issue in terms of Jytdog at least. Those events were all addressed in the GMO ArbCom even if we didn't get everything taken care of with other disruptive editors right away that were the main instigators. The issue in that era at least was Jytdog becoming the focal point of pursuit of the many later sanctioned editors I mentioned in my evidence. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:20, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * He did in fact target a female administrator with that abuse, which is a statement of fact not an "aspersion" or "dog whistle" (?). Jytdog's treatment of female editors was raised elsewhere and is worth exploring precisely because of this kind of behavior. Whether he would have directed f-bombs as he did, unprovoked, to a male administrator is an interesting question. I do find it strange that he would explode like that pretty much out of the blue. Certainly his loss of self-control and abusiveness at AN speaks for itself. Anyone can look at the context and see whether it is justified without delving into some GMO controversy you reference. I am not familiar with it. All I know is that only Jytdog resorted to abuse in that discussion. Coretheapple (talk) 19:56, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Speaking of "aspersions," your comment that the female administrator was "hounding Jytdog" is just that. I'm pinging the admin in question in the event she wants to respond to what you are saying. . Coretheapple (talk) 20:26, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, throwing in gender when it isn't relevant like that is sexism. That needs to stop, and that's why I was addressing arbs as a general closing statement for me on this proposal. I'm not sure if Jytdog has identified their gender (nor should it be relevant anyways even is sexual harassment was alleged). As for aspersions, I already addressed that hounding issue in both my analysis of evidence sections[ sourced to relevant ANIs. Even more details than that weren't relevant for this ArbCom case, and if absolutely necessary, I would rehash what was going on back then in minute detail if required. That is very different than wild speculations you've made. I didn't intend to bring it up, but others insisted on including it, so don't blame me when the situation was taken out of context. The reality is hounding is a serious documented issue (regardless of who did it over the years) that has exacerbated issues where Jytdog has edited even if a site ban is the best option. That needs to be weighed so arbs can figure out what the best course of action is. [[User:Kingofaces43|Kingofaces43]] (talk) 21:27, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Just so we can put this subset to bed, the ANI in question actually clarified the issue with what set off Jytdog when another editor pointed out in reference to SV's comments: Actually, in spite of Jytdog's somewhat colorful language, a search of the history of the guideline shows that his first edits were in June 2014, and mainly dealt with paid editing. The sections requiring civility and instructing editors to bring COI concerns to COIN predate Jytdog's edits. So we should try to keep this rational and lose both the insinuations and the language. Formerly 98 (talk) 00:18, 28 March 2015 (UTC) That had to do with Jytdog working on text in WP:COI to the effect of raise the issue with the editor in a civil manner on the editor's Talk page. This isn't the place to flesh all that out except the overall issue that happened in that ANI. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:47, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This finding not only sums up the evidence-- it resonates. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  07:30, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Jytdog's long-term pattern of bullying and threats to editors who disagree on content needs to be acknowledged by the committee. Added a diff regarding a content dispute with . — JFG talk 09:13, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Jytdog topic banned
1) Consecutive to any site ban imposed on Jytdog in this arbitration case, Jytdog is placed under a 48 months topic ban on the topics of WP:COI and WP:ADVOCACY, maximally broadly construed. This topic ban applies to all Wikipedia name-spaces. The only exceptions are WP:ARBITRATION pages regarding the enforcement, clarifications and amendments of this remedy. Any WP:AE block resulting from a violation of this topic ban must be at least 9 months in duration.


 * Comment by Arbitrators:


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * As noted above, I strongly favor an indefinite site ban. I am suggesting the above remedy on the off chance that Arbcom imposes something less than a site ban, or that a site ban is at some point lifted. Most instances of harassment, bullying and aggression by Jytdog, presented at the evidence page in this case, had to do with him accusing other editors of COI or advocacy. If and when Jytdog is allowed to resume editing, he should not be allowed to go anywhere near the topics of COI and advocacy. Nsk92 (talk) 13:41, 2 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I don't believe this meshes too well with the indefinite ban. Coretheapple (talk) 17:29, 2 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Doesn't deal with his editing in the medical content area; the problems were not only COIN. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  07:31, 3 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I’d call this a “lesser included offense” but definitely favor an indefinite site ban. If he’s not indeffed, the  MEDRS, SCIRS, etc need to be included. And the noticeboards. I agree that banning him from everywhere he’s caused trouble is pretty much banning him from everywhere he edits, though, and thus I concur with those who say to just indef him.  Montanabw (talk) 21:04, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Template
2) {text of proposed remedy}


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Template
1) {text of proposed enforcement}


 * Comment by Arbitrators:


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Template
2) {text of proposed enforcement}


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Proposal by User:SashiRolls
Though I could have added evidence, I chose to stay out of this. However, at this point I think this needs to be stated as an FoF:

"Defend Each Other"
1) Jytdog has been ardently defended by Kingofaces43, who has currently provided 44% of the text on this page. --  SashiRolls 🌿 ·     🍥 00:01, 3 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment by Arbitrators:
 * No, actually, this did not need to be stated as an FoF. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:28, 3 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment by parties:


 * Comment by others:
 * And I command commend them for taking the time. — Paleo  Neonate  – 04:41, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I know what you intended, but that typo brought a chuckle.
 * I originally wasn't going to respond to this FoF since I had said my part and was more or less withdrawing from this, but the general attitude of the FoF is part of the problem in addition to Jytdog's issues. As discussed elsewhere, a major issue is when disruptive editors like the proposer continue old disputes or interject battleground behavior and then cry foul when brought to ANI, boomeranged, etc. Then editors get branded as "supporters" as a way of dismissing the other problems when they try to deal with that side of the coin even when they've also been critical of Jytdog (e.g., me in this FoF). Nuance of sorting through evidence saying X wasn't a legitimate issue, but Y was has not been taken kindly here. Doesn't help when Jytdog was an issue, it doesn't help when they weren't, and I've yet to see anyone here truly "supporting" Jytdog.
 * The trouble that makes Jytdog ArbCom "worthy" is it's a two-pronged issue. One is Jytdog's actual problematic actions. The other is when Jytdog becomes a lightning rod for other's battleground behavior and it disrupts ANI, etc. making it hard to concretely deal with the first prong. That mentality showed by many editors makes it hard for them to step back from the fervor and see the community trying to weight all the issues instead of compartmentalizing it as "overwhelming defenses" of Jytdog. I added this FoF because it shows how both parties should be acting (i.e., self reflection) rather perpetuating a toxic atmosphere that's such a problem in the second prong.
 * After the 2015 GMO ArbCom, Jytdog's issues were more apparent to me in part because they didn't edit anymore in farm topics where I am mostly, but I also saw all the disruption caused by the second prong too. That's why I've spent so much effort on this because I don't care about "defending" Jytdog as that boat would've sailed years ago if that was ever my focus. What mattered to me as a main point here was the atmosphere in Jytdog topics others are contributing because that disrupted topics I've seen as much or more than Jytdog ever did. I kept things brief relative to how much has happened at least even though it took a lot of time and text anyways. That's really all I have to say as the workshop draws to a close. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:10, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * In yet another 2.9K addition, KoF draws attention to one of his two previous (lengthy) prosecutions of me. He neglects to mention he was called out by the same administrator (Vanamonde) both times for making things up.  Nor does he mention that in the case he links to the assembled mob was asked to provide a single diff of any disruption whatsoever I'd caused in the topic area in the last 90 days.  None were provided.  KoF's link is an excellent example of AE qua kangaroo court:  those who complain the loudest and longest win, evidence is not necessary (as long as they're playing for the "home team".  --  SashiRolls 🌿 ·     🍥 17:31, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * An important point as to why it has taken this long to deal with this situation is such ardent defense of the behavior in question. Others have called this "enabling." Vigorous and overwhelming defenses at noticeboards and in discussions are often effective. Mr Ernie (talk) 12:53, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Moreso, the "vigorous and overwhelming defenses at noticeboards" have an impact that cannot be measured by the lengthy analyses of evidence on this page, because they deter those bullied from seeking help at noticeboards to begin with, per the FALSE BOOMERANG they know will occur. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  14:16, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't see a need to pursue Kingoffaces43 in an FoF, though I'm not exactly thrilled by what he has been posting. Coretheapple (talk) 18:07, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Recidivism
1) Users who have been sanctioned for improper conduct are expected to avoid repeating it should they continue to participate in the project. Failure to do so may lead to the imposition of increasingly severe sanctions.


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 * Proposed, taken from the GamerGate and Ryulong cases. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:04, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

External conduct
2) While users' conduct outside of Wikipedia is generally not subject to Wikipedia policies or sanctions, the Committee may choose to consider off-wiki activities which are egregiously disruptive to the project in determining findings and sanctions.


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 * Proposed, also from the Ryulong case. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:04, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Sanctions and circumstances
3) In deciding what sanctions to impose against an administrator or other editor, the Arbitration Committee will consider the editor's overall record of participation, behavioral history, and other relevant circumstances. An editor's positive and valuable contributions in one aspect of his or her participation on Wikipedia do not excuse misbehavior or questionable judgment in another aspect of participation, but may be considered in determining the sanction to be imposed.


 * Comment by Arbitrators:


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 * Proposed, taken from the Ryulong case. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:04, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Analysis of evidence
Place here items of evidence (with diffs) and detailed analysis

On wbm1058's evidence section
While the focus of this case is about the phone call, many editors are bringing up previous history, so I want to focus on just that aspect for a bit. I'm concerned about wbm1058's long list of links where Jytdog was involved in admin boards without any annotation basically being used as handwaving to insinuate Jytdog was the problem in most of them. That is already used in one proposal to insinuate there were many legitimate complaints against Jytdog or that their behavior was getting worse, and the workshop instructions are very clear not to do that. This might get longer than a typical analysis section, but it was also a lot of links just thrown out there. I'll work backwards from Jytdog's Nov 2018 block (more recent stuff generally carries more weight) and talk quotes are generally ANI closes:


 * 1) November 2018 - Unnecessary block caused by Muse (disambiguation) content dispute and User:Jytdog's harrassment : The complaints by MusenInvincible are not supported by policy, as explained by several editors. MusenInvincible is advised to drop the issue. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:02, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
 * 2) September 2018 - Jytdog (yet again) and Yakult:OP (Andy Digley) was one-way I-banned for hounding Jytdog.
 * 3) August 2018 - User Jytdog Misconduct.: OP filed an ANI because Jytdog hatted a section. OP was CU blocked as a sock.
 * 4) August 2018 - User Jytdog Should Be INDEFINITELY Blocked: Didn't link the whole ANI where the COI account wanting to boomerang Jytdog was indeffed.
 * 5) June 2018 - User:Jytdog: For  Godrestsinreason OP is Indef blocked for COI violations and per their basically requesting a self block here by agreeing to a site ban. No reason to continue the drama. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:14, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
 * 6) April 2018 - Malicious editing and AfD actions by Jytdog: user:Quinn2425 indef blocked for sockpuppetry and personal attacks. The rest appears to be a content dispute. Guy (Help!) 09:12, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
 * 7) February 2018 - GLAM / WIR / COI:Complicated somewhat meta-issue on how COI affects GLAM and Wikipedians in Residence. Can't find much there on what Jytdog supposedly went overboard on, but it sounds like others agreed Pigsonthewing was mostly overreacting and they had a COI.
 * 8) January 2018 - User:Jytdog reported by User:Prokaryotes: Protected. Prokaryotes was also banned from GMOs (at AE and almost ArbCom) for things like editing warring and involved with Jytdog there. There was a flurry of edits making it hard to count reverts, but it definitely looked like Prokaryotes wasn't following WP:ONUS policy. Jytdog could have slowed a bit on reverts, but others were also having trouble with Prokaryotes edits too. Looks more like a managing serial edits problem than a clear cut edit warring violation to pin on anyone.
 * 9) December 2017 - Jytdog Ban breaking/request of Enforcement and further actions:Closed as likely sockpuppetry. Even for me being familiar with how broad we made the GMO DS, there wasn't any evidence presented convincing of a ban violation.
 * 10) November 2017 - User:Jytdog: OP (Banzernax) indeffed.
 * 11) August 2017 - Boomerang for Jytdog: Not the whole ANI. This has gone on long enough. No consensus here to act about anything, but nobody's hands are clean either. Everybody go edit the encyclopedia now and be kind to each other. Katietalk 22:48, 6 August 2017 (UTC) Boomerang requested by Jusdafax (also involved with Jytdog and sanctioned in GMOs for making accusations without evidence) was mostly opposed.
 * 12) August 2017 - Unjustified reverting by User:Jytdog: New editor being reverted for mass problematic changes in single edits by Jytdog. Editors seemed to agree ANI wasn't appropriate and gave advice to new editor.
 * 13) April 2017 - Jytdog abusing WP:THREATEN:Another case of a sock and editors having to say Jytdog didn't threaten anyone at all.
 * 14) March 2017 - request for block of user @Jytdog: to prevent him from removing valid edits: Core complaint was Thus, I ask you to block jytdog from removing edits soley because they are based on primary sources. Editor was kindly reminded about WP:MEDRS.
 * 15) February 2017 - reporting myself (and Jytdog): Mostly a misunderstanding. Jytdog and Slatersteven are to be commended for actually listening instead of endless escalation. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 21:29, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * 16) February 2017 - Arbitration motion regarding Jytdog: COI restriction removed with caveat of revealing non-public information will result in an indef.
 * 17) January 2017 - Block #3
 * 18) * 04:15, 15 January 2017 blocked Jytdog with an expiration time of 24 hours (account creation blocked) (Violation of the three-revert rule): Found the unlisted AN3. Both were blocked, and Jytdog definitely went past 3RR. The other editor Namarly looked to have some belligerence issues as a newer editor, wasn't listening, and was also check-user blocked.]
 * 19) November 2016 - User:Jytdog reported by User:CanadaRed: Page protected – 5 days. Please use the talk page to agree on where to go from here. The stuff Jytdog was removing does look promotional by our usual definition. But Jytdog need not assume the sole burden of removing promotional content, and when he breaks 3RR that is sooner or later going to be enforced. User:CanadaRed is risking a block for disruptive editing if he continues to restore material that has been removed after lengthy talk page discussion. Since this article has caused so much trouble in the past people need to step carefully. EdJohnston (talk) 04:08, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
 * 20) November 2016 - Jytdog: Good response to OP If you add unsourced material to a BLP ([1]) you can't really complain when another user drops an unsourced template on your talk page. However, it does appear that this can be sorted out via discussion on the talk page, and is thus a content dispute and not something that WP:ANI needs to concern itself with. Black Kite (talk) 19:03, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
 * 21) September 2016 - Disruptive editing by Jytdog; possibly article ownership or edit warring: Content dispute by OP who was the only one found to need guidance.
 * 22) September 2016 - User:Jytdog removing talk pages comments based on their opinion:Treated as a frivolous request.
 * 23) September 2016 - Edit-war with jytdog over Teledermatology:No issue found with Jytdog, looked like another new editor having trouble with MEDRS.
 * 24) September 2016 - Verbal and Psychological Abuse of a female editor by Jytdog: OP topic-banned from sex/gender-related topics.
 * 25) June 2016 - (Enforcer) Jytdog has lost objectivity in COIN: Almost unanimous support for a bommerang to COI OP as vexatious. The close does not mention issues with Jytdog at all.
 * 26) June 2016 - Doxxing? "During the ArbCom there were 3 people outed! All 3 of them on the side that was challenging the Jytdog et al. It is logical to suspect foul play."  01:12, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I find it odd wbm1058 chose to highlight that aspersion in the GMO topic that's in conspiracy theory territory by another GMO topic-banned editor. In reality, this was the actual ANI requesting a moderated RfC the the scientific consensus of GMOs. Jytdog was no longer in the topic at this time. The part wbm1058 highlighted on doxxing was one admin, Laser brain, who agreed to moderate the RfC, received threats over email from those opposed to the RfC, so it wouldn't make sense to insinuate Jytdog's involvement given his stance in the subject before his ban. That both petrarchan47 (the remainder wbm1058's quote) and Slimvirgin floated conspiracy theories about that being a false flag (in the above diff) does show the kind of battleground mentality myself, Jytdog, and other science editors in the GMO topic were bombarded with though.
 * 1) June 2016 - Block #2 : I will comment on this block, and I encourage editors to read the talk page notice summarizing it for the public. COI editor was editing under their real name. There was crossing the line with including a link about the person that resulted in the block, but there was also discussion about tensions between WP:COI and WP:OUTING. The block was valid, but highlighted tensions for those trying to balance the two.
 * 2) * 16:00, 8 August 2016 unblocked Jytdog (Successful appeal to the Arbitration Committee: He is warned that any further violations of the outing policy will be cause for a site ban. Unblock
 * 3) * 17:34, 27 June 2016 blocked Jytdog with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation blocked) (OversightBlock):
 * 4) * 19:51, 27 June 2016 changed block settings for Jytdog with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation blocked, cannot edit own talk page) (OversightBlock)
 * 5) March 2016 - Grave threat of harm made by User: Jytdog: There is no credible threat of harm to Picomtn here. Picomtn has no basis for their accusation of sock puppetry by David Gerard and Jytdog. I hesitate to even suggest that Picomtn take their allegations to WP:SPI as I imagine it would quickly be declined and closed for lack of evidence. . . Bbb23 (talk) 11:40, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
 * 6) March 2016 - Jytdog Enough is Enough!:No alleged personal attacks alleged by IP found.
 * 7) March 2016 - More WP:BATTLEGROUND from Jytdog at Berylliosis: Filed by Andy Digley (I-banned years later). No formal close, but it looks like Jytdog walked away from this dispute rather than engage.
 * 8) February 2016 - Jytdog's bullying over editing Craig J. N. de Paulo: It appears that the OP is forum shopping. As has been suggested, WP:RSN seems to be a more suitable forum for this issue. (non-admin closure) Erpert blah, blah, blah... 01:40, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 9) December 2015 - Genetically modified organisms case closed: I already commented on the complicated nature of the GMO case at my evidence section. In short, Jytdog had some issues, but many were exacerbated the the sheer number of problematic editors that were eventually also banned from the subject for advocacy or hounding issues that explains, but does not justify, many of the incivility issues.
 * 10) * Jytdog and DrChrissy are placed indefinitely under a two-way interaction ban.
 * 11) * Jytdog is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to genetically modified organisms and agricultural chemicals, broadly interpreted; appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed.
 * 12) * Jytdog is admonished for their poor civility in relation to the locus of this case.
 * 13) November 2015 - Block #1: This block was good for an oversight block. I know what it was about, and it was a serious issue about certain editors that was only apparent off-wiki (as much as I'll say there). It should not have been brought up publicly in the case though.
 * 22:04, 27 November 2015 unblocked Jytdog (per email discussion; has promised not to repeat the relevant edit)
 * 03:06, 17 November 2015 blocked Jytdog with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation blocked, cannot edit own talk page) (please contact ArbCom or the functionaries team)
 * 1) September 2015 - User:Jytdog reported by User:DrChrissy: Article protected. Part of the larger GMO dispute and issues between DrChrissy and Jytdog.
 * 2) September 2015 - Editor Jytdog's none neutral GMO edits: This is the ANI case that largely set up the GMO ArbCom case. No one was sanctioned at this time.
 * 3) August 2015 - Would like Jytdog to leave me alone: Per the OP's suggestion, closed as resolved with a voluntary Iban between Jytdog and CorporateM. BMK (talk) 18:41, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * 4) July 2015 - Mass deletion / PROD / redirect of mall articles under the guise of WP:COI
 * 5) * Suggestion to Jytdog and GregJackP
 * No formal close, but a history of problems with GregJackP and others was interjected into the ANI. It was suggested Jytdog and GregJackP try to avoid each other since the ANI was derailed. From Jytdog: I'm late to the party, but I would be happy to steer clear of GregJackP and am OK with the hatting of both threads. Jytdog (talk) 11:47, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) July 2015 - What is our CoI policy actually?: Not the full ANI: The final motion, "Elvey has exhausted the patience of the community and is topic banned from COI, broadly construed. This sanction may be appealed to the community in six months", has broad consensus. So ordered. Drmies (talk) 17:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * 2) May 2015 - Jytdog needs administrator intervention, please?: Withdrawn by OP
 * 3) May 2015 - Strong-arm tactics by Jytdog: IP blocked - this is obviously a long-time disputant, possibly block-evading, certainly trying to evade scrutiny. Not here to contribute. Guy (Help!) 23:18, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * 4) May 2015 - User:Jytdog reported by User:Anmccaff: No action or violations.
 * 5) April 2015 - User:Jytdog: Unclosed, but seems to be another COI thread. Jytdog stated that Dr. Joseph Shaw shouldn't edit the article Latin Mass Society of England and Wales because Shaw is the chairman of that society, which definitely doesn't seem to warrant an AN posting.
 * 6) April 2015 - JYTDog - Vote Stacking:Nowhere near the full unclosed ANI. The small complaint within seemed to be that Jytdog pinged editors who had been active at the article somewhat recently. Many of them had also been in dispute with the editor on that page and other editors didn't seem to take the complaint seriously.
 * 7) March 2015 - Jytdog's behavior: Not the full ANI. Drmies close: But this was not about Jytdog or ANI, so: c. There is a measure of agreement that David Tornheim's editing is problematic
 * 8) March 2015 - Jytdog: Protracted uncivility and harrassment: DrChrissy filed as part of the GMO dispute. Swarm closed with a warning to Jytdog. DrChrissy's behavior with Jytdog was not addressed at this time (later at GMO ArbCom).
 * 9) March 2015 - Request review of closure of ANI against Jytdog: Made by DrChrissy in relation to the previous, closure was reaffirmed.
 * 10) September 2014 - User:Jytdog reported by User:Blacksun1942: Page protected. Looks like talk was ongoing when the OP filed this and was confused about 3RR. It looks like it resolved on its own practically.
 * 11) September 2014 - User:Jytdog and User:Gandydancer reported by User:SW3 5DL: Declined. Jytdog was cleared, SW35DL was told to use the talk page.
 * 12) April 2014 - Recurrent violation of Civility policy by Jytdog: This is not a matter to be resolved at this noticeboard, because there is no concise synopsis with diffs showing any sort of behavior that would require an immediate block.
 * 13) January 2014 - User:Jytdog reported by User:FelixRosch: No violation.

Now I think it's rather absurd to have to go through this many blanket links at ArbCom, but when you read the links, it actually gives a pretty telling story. In general, it was usually the editor that was in a dispute with Jytdog that was the problem (disruptive, new, COI, or sock), and Jytdog wasn't found to be the issue. That's especially the case as you go back from Nov. 2018. They had nearly two years of decent editing since their COI ban was lifted or block 3 for edit warring, which isn't something that's going to trigger discussion of indef blocks. You have to go back to block 2 for a more serious issue related to outing, but it also was a more complicated case where the editor already revealed their name. It's not until you get back to the GMO case and block 1 around 2015 that you get to some more clear cut issues (and a lot of messy stuff mired in GMOs I won't get into here).

This "many admin boards" thing isn't a new problem, and it often distracts from dealing with legitimate behavior issues with Jytdog while tending to inflame situations or topics they want to edit with the examples above related to hounding of Jytdog. I cant think of any remedies for that, but if Jytdog comes back, I get the feeling we'll need some caution (maybe an FoF?) in place to sort out the peanut gallery effect or hounding from old disputes by sanctioned editors so Jytdog's concrete behavior can actually be examined over time at admin boards. To be clear I don't know of any background of wbm1058 with Jytdog in that regard, but the way the evidence was presented has become an issue. Kingofaces43 (talk) 05:47, 29 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment by Arbitrators:
 * Comment by Parties:
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Regarding:
 * 1. November 2018 - Unnecessary block caused by Muse (disambiguation) content dispute and User:Jytdog's harrassment : The complaints by MusenInvincible are not supported by policy, as explained by several editors. MusenInvincible is advised to drop the issue. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:02, 12 November 2018 (UTC)


 * had an interest in Muse (band), and on 26 October 2018 made several minor edits to improve coverage of that topic.
 * MusenInvincible makes five good-faith edits to Muse (disambiguation) between 26 October–2 November 2018‎, and is reverted by multiple editors.
 * @15:33, 2 November 2018 MusenInvincible edits Jytdog talk Re: edit blocking threat
 * Jytdog is the last editor to revert; initiating discussion at Talk:Muse (disambiguation) @15:54, 2 November 2018
 * @16:04, 2 November 2018 – just 10 minutes after starting that discussion – Jytdog placed an edit-warring notice on MusenInvincible's talk page.
 * 3RR noticeboard discussion initiated @16:04, 2 November 2018

Respectfully, I disagree with the close of that ANI discussion. Five edits over the course of eight days does not, in my view, constitute "long-term edit warring".

Jytdog's behavior in this incident is appalling. He was overly aggressive in templating with a warning, which was undue escalation of what strikes me as a relatively minor dispute.

But, starting a 3RR discussion a mere ten minutes after initiating discussion at the talk page where the alleged edit-warring occurred, and then citing that very discussion as their attempt to "resolve the dispute", really now, on what planet is that acceptable behavior? wbm1058 (talk) 02:26, 30 March 2020 (UTC)


 * 2. September 2018 - Jytdog (yet again) and Yakult:OP (Andy Digley) was one-way I-banned for hounding Jytdog.

Andy Dingley's behavior is irrelevant here. The purpose of this analysis is to evaluate Jytdog's behavior. In that regard, we only need look at the opening quote of that discussion to find some below-standard behavior: "This is a pile of dogshit on the sidewalk. If people want to write a real article on this, please do so. But I bet not a single one of the !voters here will clean up this dogshit. Nope, you will give your !vote and leave the shit here for other people to step in." is simply not acceptable editing behaviour.

OK, again I respectfully disagree with the apparent community consensus on civility. Calling someone's work "a pile of dogshit" is not civil discussion. wbm1058 (talk) 05:18, 30 March 2020 (UTC)


 * 3. August 2018 - User Jytdog Misconduct.: OP filed an ANI because Jytdog hatted a section. OP was CU blocked as a sock.

Again I respectfully disagree that the behavior of the complainant is relevant. Jytdog created the deletion discussion Articles for deletion/Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine. Then, acting as a WP:INVOLVED administrator, even though he was not actually an administrator, he hatted opposing comments ONCE, TWICE, THREE times (bold-revert-discuss protocol would have called for discussing the disputed hatting before reinstating it – hatting the comments was a bold action). In general, editors should not act as administrators in disputes in which they have been involved. This is because involved administrators may have, or may be seen as having, a conflict of interest in disputes they have been a party to or have strong feelings about. Involvement is generally construed very broadly by the community... By what stretch was Jytdog not acting as an "involved admin" in his actions here? wbm1058 (talk) 14:09, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I just wanted to interject that strictly speaking Jytdog was not acting as an administrator, he was acting as a disruptive editor by refactoring a project page in a manner that favored his position. He did that with me (see reference to "collapsing tangent" at my evidence here). He has done that with others. It's part of his pattern of toxic behavior that was allowed to fester because he was an "unblockable," as noted above. Coretheapple (talk) 15:02, 30 March 2020 (UTC)


 * You may personally disagree, but evidence needs to presented in appropriate context. There was community consensus in many of those, so there shouldn't have been a massive list of links insinuating Jytdog was the problem there when community consensus in them generally ran the other way outside of specific cases. If you personally disagre with the community, then there should have been compelling cases you delved into that would have made a clear case. I still don't see that here, and we shouldn't be expected to walk through every link in response at this point.


 * On your numbered points, the use of the term "templating" is odd in 1. Templates are there to alert editors of an issue. Some follow essays like WP:DTTR and ignore other essays criticizing that essay when I see that language, but using templates is definitely not a sanctionable offense. There was a slow edit war going on, and 3RR is clear the number of edits isn't always the issue (policy like WP:ONUS comes into play). They had been blocked for edit warring before. Calling that situation appalling is reaching way too much since the admin saw otherwise. I'll jump to 3. You can't say the behavior of the complainant is irrelevant when the action was dealing with their behavior in the first place. There, Jytdog hatted comments that any editor can do for a soapboxing COI editor, not just admins. It's usually better to leave that to article talk pages, but a COI/SPA tag would have been better at AFD. In the end, the comments were hatted by another editor anyways. That is weak for even establishing tendentious editing.


 * The second one on Yakult is the only one that warrants some discussion. There, you need need to read the whole ANI rather than just look for stuff Jytdog did. Andy Digley had been hounding Jytdog for years on little instances they could bring to try to sanction Jytdog. That is what brought Andy Digley's behavior to a head there. If you read the rest of the ANI before the boomerang, editors excluding those who had been heavily involved in other battleground disputes with Jytdog (back to the hounding problem again), generally viewed Jytdog could be course corrected instead of blowing the situation up as Andy did. Now we'll never know. Now, calling article content itself dogshit isn't preferable, but that isn't a personal attack either. Some editors swear and others take offense to it, but it's usually a distraction. What was an issue there was that Jytdog should have toned back the other criticism directed at editors even though he immediately realized it was not appropriate and also withdrew the AfD. They do need to improve by venting outside Wikipedia and not hitting the publish button so quickly even though the frequency of that seemed to be improving. That's actually an example of a legitimate issue with Jytdog that might have been resolved more simply if the hounding issue wasn't a problem as opposed to my many examples in the analysis above of just pure hounding inappropriately painting Jytdog as the issue. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:33, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

On Atsme's evidence section and larger admin board issues
This is my last analysis section (mostly because I'm familiar with the history) given the time the above took, but Atsme's section concerned me for how much it misrepresented both Jytdog and Atsme and drug up 5+ year-old disputes. Normally I wouldn't focus this much on a non-party, but Atsme has provided examples of the kind of problems that other editors muddy the water with on Jytdog at admin boards.

Disruptive behavior: This subsection was extremely misleading in annotation asserting targeting an editor, bullying, etc. What Atsme omitted was that this dealt with DePiep before the GMO ArbCom, and this was the actual ANI That editor was blocked for personal attacks and casting aspersions (i.e., shill gambit), that got so bad in the topic, we had to adopt a principle on it at the GMO ArbCom. Myself and Jytdog were especially hounded on this by DePiep and others, and editors were justifiably frustrated by DePiep's actions and Slimvirgin's comments at the ANI (Atsme links to some responses by Jytdog to both). That was a case of Jytdog being frustrated by harassment and pot-stirring, so I'm very concerned Atsme used ArbCom to try to paint Jytdog trying to get admin action on that as bullying people. It took ArbCom to finally crack down on that.

Business associations: This section is also misleading. Atsme didn't link the whole COIN against them that did find Atsme has a COI with Earthwave, the issue was more about what to do about edits Atsme made. The actual COI was demonstrated on-wiki by Atsme themselves though, which makes the "probing" language inaccurate. Atsme says His distorted truths and misconceptions caused me to be wrongfully branded as a paid editor., yet I'm not seeing any diffs that show Atsme's claim isn't an aspersion, especially claiming that Jytdog said Atsme was paid for those edits at COIN. Instead, Atsme escalated it to ArbCom calling it an abuse of COIN, which arbs declined. Atsme instead picked the one arb who mentioned no prejudice, who actually said that in the context of if the community couldn't handle the issue, not that Jytdog was at fault there. The other arbs generally seemed agreed that there wasn't anything done by Jytdog at the COIN to really merit a case, so it wasn't really closed in Atsme's favor or that Jytdog really stepped out of line. DGG summed the core problem up well there in response to Jytdog and others trying to tackle Atsme's COI issue, As I see it, the principal problem is Atsme's refusal to accept legitimate criticism and to assert article ownership. As she apparently sees it, her approach to an article is always the right one.

Malicious intent: That last issue actually culminated in their last section. This largely had to do with an essay Atsme wrote WP:AVDUCK. The first version had some serious issues that Jytdog and the community took issue with where the essay was correctly deleted. Atsme eventually recreated a version that has survived, but also filed an ANI against Jytdog about it. What Atsme ommitted in their annotations that don't match the diffs was not showing the final close of the ANI where Bishonen blocked Atsme for disruptive editing there.. That's very different than the picture Atsme just tried to paint, and is cherrypicking to the point that it's misuse of Arbcom time for pursuing an old dispute where Atsme was sanctioned.

If you read through Atsme's links or the actual cases, that's an example of an editor unable to deal with their own disruptive behavior and then projecting that problem onto other editors (like Jytdog) who have tried to address that behavior as discussed in Atsme's noticeboard discussions. Maybe it's in part because Jytdog is a prolific editor covering multiple topics (especially fringe areas), but Jytdog does seem to attract a lot of WP:IDHT editors over time that follow this pattern of: 1. be disruptive where Jytdog has edited, 2. Jytdog goes to an admin board, 3. editor is correctly sanctioned (or not), 4. editor pursues Jytdog at future admin boards minimizing who was actually sanctioned saying Jytdog was as bully or misuses noticeboards, 5. Admin board is derailed making it very difficult to determine if there are legitimate issues with other editors or Jytdog because of old grudges.

tl;dr: Like my previous analysis section, I'm wondering what arbs think about addressing the general hounding/old grudge issue (or rather just acknowledging it) if Jytdog comes back? That seems to come up whether Jytdog is editing well or having issues (see my previous analysis section), and that is part of the reason why Jytdog topics generally aren't handled well by the community (and end up in ArbCom's domain). Generally, we try to ignore those editors and focus on the core issue when that's going on, but that usually means more time wasted by the community that shouldn't be pinned on Jytdog (and I will pin things on Jytdog when they are due). This is outside the core phone-call issue, but I feel like we'd be setting Jytdog up for failure if we also don't attempt to address this larger hounding problem in the community that isn't always the result of Jytdog being gruff and has already resulted in some I-bans. If anyone can address the mess that causes, it will be here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:57, 29 March 2020 (UTC)


 * A small correction: Kingofaces43 writes above that Atsme "filed an ANI against Jytdog" concerning the dispute regarding WP:AVDUCK. Though Jytdog was (along with a great many other people, including me) involved in the dispute regarding that controversial essay, Atsme didn't name Jytdog at all in the ANI filing she linked as evidence (I was named, along with User:I9Q79oL78KiL0QTFHgyc and User:QuackGuru). In fact, Jytdog's participation in that fractious ANI discussion was minimal, making Atsme's claim that the ANI thread showed 'Malicious intent' appear rather open to question, to say the least. See the final state of the thread as it was archived, and note that Jytdog's sole contributions were a single post in response to my suggestion that Atsme be provisionally unblocked so she could raise the broader essay issue before ArbCom (which JytDog advised against, on the grounds that doing so probably wasn't in Atsme's best interest) and a 'non-admin closure' noting that Atsme had been blocked. If there is evidence of 'malice' in those posts, I can only say that I can't see it, and I have to concur with Kingofaces43's suggestion that Atsme's evidence in this particular regard is best characterised as a "misuse of Arbcom time".


 * As for other evidence for or against Jytdog, I will offer no opinion here, beyond expressing a hope that ArbCom look at the evidence itself, rather than the spin being put on it by those submitting it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:25, 3 April 2020 (UTC)


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I haven't looked into this evidence presentation in depth, but, after skimming it, my biggest takeaway is this: One of the five pillars is "Wikipedia's editors should treat each other with respect and civility". The evidence shows multiple failures in multiple components of this pillar: civility, etiquette, seeking consensus, avoiding edit wars, and assuming good faith.
 * On 30 May 2016 at Jimbotalk on meta, Jytdog brags "Like I said I have learned the boundaries of the community's tolerance on OUTING and believe me I have tested the limits of that in my COI work. But I have stayed within bounds so far.  It's the community's game; not yours or mine."
 * Weeks later, he is blocked from 27 June 2016 to 8 August 2016, and warned that any further violations of the outing policy will be cause for a site ban.

Jytdog will push and push at the boundaries of respect and civility as long as the community lets him get away with it, and lacking professional staff to monitor and control this activity, Wikipedia's volunteer administrators don't have the time or resources to effectively deal with it. My evidence presentation couldn't be kept under 500 words when it simply listed links to each relevant noticeboard section. The aggregate word count of all these discussions combined is unfathomable. Think of all the community time that's been wasted as editors have been forced to take time out from mainspace editing to respond to it all. Jytdog has demonstrated failure to keep disputes from escalating, many, many times. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:04, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I had not heard of that Meta discussion before, but it would fit with his later comments. On November 13, 2018, just before the phone call incident, Jytdog stated: When any editor, but especially paid editors, start talking about their "rights" it is clear that things are very far gone. On the same day, administrator Gamaliel called Jytdog "Inspector Javert" in a thread about a different topic on the COI noticeboard. I don't think this vigilante attitude with COI issues ever changed between 2016 and late 2018, despite reassurances.--Pudeo (talk) 17:32, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Protecting the encyclopedia from COI (while not everyone can do it) enforces not only policies but also legal terms of service ( and ). It is indeed the case that when advocates push for their "rights" their arguments are usually flawed and often devolve into WP:IDHT until prevented or blocked.  I don't find problematic in itself that Jytdog had a reputation to fight COI.  Volunteers must do it, the foundation cannot deal with that by itself.  Jytdog understood that and cared.  — Paleo  Neonate  – 21:26, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * That "Inspector Javert" comment (which was removed as a personal attack and shouldn't have been blanket posted here) led me to look at the whole COIN. If anything, that showed exactly what I'm talking about here with Jytdog being briefly frustrated by the subject of the COIN turning around and acting as as victim and lashing out when their COI was clearly demonstrated. Jytdog course corrected, and his comments among all the other editors there were more or less by the book. Ironically, that diff you provided showed an above section with a COI editor lashing out at Jytdog that had a very appropriate close summary. We need to look at the evidence as a whole here at ArbCom, not just quote zingers in isolation that had to be removed. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:18, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Not really. CheckUser did not block the suspected COI account despite being "technically indistinguishable" in the SPI, because apparently their explanation about using a company WIFI made sense. The only edit in the suspected COI area tagged a company CEO for notability which would not make sense. In the following exchange on the suspected COI editor's talkpage, the editor directly said that I have not been paid by my employers to make edits, ever. That should have been it. But Jytdog responded: OUTING is not a get out of jail free card from PAID. Nope. I will respond to the rest at COIN. At COIN, Jytdog called his explanation "complete bullshit" and said he should be indefinitely blocked (he later struck through the latter). The editor then asked Jytdog to stop harassing him and called it an "awful experience" on his talkpage. I am assuming that you were not aware of all the details, because that is inexcusable behavior. --Pudeo (talk) 06:48, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Most of that doesn't seem to be an analysis of the evidence at hand in this area, but if someone's biggest takeaway on this section isn't looking at issues other editors also bring in (rather than something buried in that evidence section), that's part of the larger problem we need to address here. Most of the frustrations (by the community or Jytdog themselves) would be greatly reduced when you account for those cases. Acknowledging that at least helps with sorting legitimate issues here or in the future (. In my experience when my topics used to overlap with them, most of the civility issues were outbursts related to such cases, not outright harassment requiring sanctions strictly on Jytdog. Those kinds of outbursts at least, can be managed if the underlying reasons aren't left to linger and accumulate excessively (e.g., the GMO case).
 * As for the COI work comment, remember that the tensions between COI and OUTING were definitely in flux at this time (and still are to a lesser extent). If you said someone had a COI without evidence, that's also blockable. I remember Jytdog being involved in a lot of conversations on how that sometimes opposing guidance could be navigated. For whatever reason, Jytdog leaned too hard into COI and not enough into OUTING in that block instance, and much of the discussion immediately after that had to do with how easily the most active COIN editors could get caught up by that dispute. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:18, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I just wanted to make a point concerning Jytdog's COI work that needs to be made here. is, has been, and will be second to none in his dedication to fighting COI and paid editing, and his standing in that area is far greater than Jytdog's. But if you look at the evidence presented by Smallbones, you find the following: I first ran into Jytdog AFAIK in June 2014 and have never been able to work with him, despite supposedly "being on the same side" of the paid editing issue. His extreme impoliteness alienates almost everybody, and as a result I believe his "my way or the highway" attitude has done more to hurt the process of paid editing reform than any other Wikipedia editor. I avoided WP:COIN for years simply because I didn't want to deal with him in any way. While I can't hold a candle to Smallbones I too have worked hard against paid editing, and my evidence describes his bullying of me on my talk page and other misconduct regarding BP, in which my focus was countering COI editing there. So let's not make the mistake of fostering an image of Jytdog as a lonely warrior against COI, when the reality is an editor who repelled other editors regardless of one's "side."  Coretheapple (talk) 22:35, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Replace a few terms in Smallbones' post, to substitute paid editing for medical editing, and we have the sum of the problem. That is why Jytdog ran into so many issues in the areas he chose to work. If one can't deal with the advocacy, quacks, COI, trolls, POV pushers, alt-med types, then one shouldn't be editing in those areas, and yet both of Jytdog's editing areas (COIN and medical) brought him into contact with editors that require a specific skill set that Smallbones seems to have, but Jytdog struggled with. And then the (faulty) behaviors he used dealing with those editors were turned on productive and policy-compliant editors, as he seemed to lose sight of who the "good guys" were. When other editors look up to, emulate and defend the behaviors, there goes the whole neighborhood.  And when you lose the whole neighborhood, the very elements you were "fighting" win.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  08:06, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Jusdafax's evidence

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 * I just wanted to note that the 2016 topic ban you refer to in Evidence provided by Voceditenore and Premeditated Chaos was lifted in 2017 (motion), prior to the November 2018 phone call incident. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:12, 5 April 2020 (UTC)


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General discussion

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 * Comments from User:Jytdog2 Just a note, that I will accept whatever the decision is - limitations or banishment. Jytdog2 (talk) 04:15, 1 April 2020 (UTC)


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 * Comments from User:Pine
 * I am somewhat familiar only with the immediate issue at hand, namely the phone call that shouldn't have been made, and not with the rest of Jytdog's edit history. Personally, I am satisfied that Jytdog is sincere in apologizing for that phone call, and I agree that the call was a bad idea.


 * Quoting from Harassment: "Editors who welcome private communication typically post their preferred contact information on Wikipedia, sometimes enabling email through the Wikipedia interface. Contacting an editor using any other contact information, without first obtaining explicit permission, should be assumed to be uninvited and, depending on the context, may be harassment. Never contact another editor in this way as part of a dispute, or when the editor has asked not to be contacted that way. Unexpected contact using personal information as described above in Posting of personal information may be perceived as a threat to the safety and well-being of the person being contacted. Users who experience inappropriate off-wiki contact should report occurrences privately to the Arbitration Committee or to the emergency response team."


 * In my personal opinion, if Jytdog thought that a voice conversation would help to resolve an issue, then what would have been better would have been contacting the editor on their talk page and inviting the other editor, in a completely nonthreatening way, to have a conversation using any number of voice communication tools including tools which don't require the other user to provide their phone number or other nonpublic information. The current policy prohibits even that ("Never contact another editor in this way as part of a dispute"), which I personally think is going too far but I am not proposing that Arbcom change this as a part of this case.


 * "Bad idea" does not necessarily imply "malicious", and at this point I'm mostly convinced that Jytdog was not being malicious with that phone call, but the call was "uninvited". If only considering that phone call, I don't think that an indefinite ban would teach any lesson that Jytdog has not learned, and I do not think that an indefinite ban would be appropriate or necessary if that phone call was the only issue of concern with Jytdog's conduct. However, I have not looked into other conduct by Jytdog, and I would remain concerned if this was a part of a pattern of issues. If there is a pattern of issues then I might support an indefinite ban or some editing restrictions pending some persuasive evidence of reform for issues beyond those that are immediately visible on the surface of this case. For example, it might be that Jytdog should be prohibited from directly intervening in alleged conflict-of-interest cases and should be required instead, if Jytdog does anything about them, to bring them to the attention of an uninvolved administrator or an appropriate noticeboard.


 * A call could have gone well and been appreciated by someone who was having difficulty with Wikipedia's interface or policies, but a call could also theoretically also have led to someone being outed and at risk for consequences from an employer or someone else that disapproved of the individual's Wikipedia activities. While I think that this was not Jytdog's intent, it is a risk that should be taken into consideration. Accordingly, I think that a remedy in this case should include putting Jytdog on indefinite probation with terms something like this: "Further violations of the policy regarding Harassment are to result in an indefinite ban under the procedures for Arbitration enforcement, and should be brought to the attention of the Arbitration Committee."


 * Thank you for considering these comments. ↠Pine   ( ✉ )  04:41, 22 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Supplementing my comments above:
 * Arbitration actions are different from civil or criminal legal actions. Some of the statements that I have read suggest to me that some users' sense of justice leads them to calls for vengeance or punishment. While civil and criminal legal systems may provide those types of options, the goals in this case should be to manage the risk of further harm and to promote the net good of Wikipedia and of the people who participate here.
 * I would be interested in hearing from Jytdog any recommendations for remedies in this case, assuming that the Arbitration Committee permits them to return.
 * In addition to the options for restrictions or an indefinite ban, an option that Arbitration Committee has is to ban Jytdog indefinitely but permit a request for review of the ban after one or more years.
 * I have not conducted a thorough review of Jytdog's conduct in general. If the Arbitration Committee does that and concludes that Jytdog's presence on Wikipedia would be unacceptably risky for others, themselves, or the project, now or any number of years in the future, then I will probably trust that judgment. My view is that most contributors who are not trolls are capable of reform, although that reform may require a number of years to take hold, and editors who return after a ban such as this should at a minimum be monitored and should initially have some restrictions if they are permitted to return. ↠Pine   (<b style="color:#FFDF00;text-shadow:#FFDF00 0 0 1.0em">✉</b>)  01:49, 2 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Comments from Voceditenore
 * Jytdog's unsolicited phone call to an editor with whom he was in dispute using off-wiki research to obtain her private information needs to have a finding of fact and a remedy, even if it is ultimately reduced to "time served". He retired after the arbitrators were in possession of potentially damning private evidence and the case was about to be accepted. In his retirement announcement he gave as his ostensible reason  The retirement and subsequent request to return a year later should not be allowed to short-circuit and prevent the scrutiny and judgement that he sought to avoid in 2018. The remedy should be decided as it would have been had he not "retired". If the arbitrators feel that a site ban is warranted for that behaviour, then that should be the remedy, and it should be recorded as such, before they shorten it for "time served".


 * Jytdog has a long record of occasions of gross incivility dating from 2015 right up to 2018. The 9 sample occasions cited in my evidence were all triggered by his anger over alleged COI/advocacy. His judgement in this area is permanently impaired. He was blocked for outing an alleged COI editor in 2015 . Promised not to do it again . Was unblocked. Did it again in 2016. Was blocked again . Promised not to do it again . Was unblocked again with a comprehensive topic ban on "all matters related to COI editing . Had his topic ban lifted in 2017 with a strong warning . In 2018 he was blocked for off-wiki harassment and privacy violation of an editor whom he deemed a COI "advocate"  (the trigger for this case). Promised not to do it again . Was unblocked. Was re-blocked by an ArbCom motion . And here he is again in 2020, still dissembling about what he did, and promising not to do it again.


 * Yet, the reason he gives for wanting to return  is that he wants to edit in the very area (COI/Advocacy/Promotionalism)  that over the past five years has repeatedly triggered his gross incivility, aggression, and impulsive acts of outing and harassment. If he is ever allowed to return, he should be under the following restrictions (or something similar) for a very lengthy period:
 * Topic-banned from any article, discussion page, or user talk page where issues of COI, advocacy, or promotionalism are involved—broadly construed
 * Restricted to 0 revert on any page and for any reason.
 * Forbidden to contact any editor off-wiki (including by email) for any reason without their explicit prior permission, given in writing and on-wiki.
 * In my view, without these restrictions he will inevitably repeat his past behaviour, despite his promises and the assertions of others that for some reason this time he really has learned his lesson. The next time may not be one of the exact same things he has done before, but it will almost certainly be a variation on them—and an egregious violation of the spirit, if not the letter, of the policies and warnings he has repeatedly flouted. None of these restrictions would impair his ability to create high quality content. Voceditenore (talk) 09:52, 28 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Comments from Coretheapple


 * I appreciate that editors are going to such trouble to figure out ways of keeping a toxic editor from having opportunities to be toxic, and that he be given one really really final chance to not be toxic. Look at this case. Look at the thousands of words and hundreds of person-hours wasted on this. Do you really want yet another time suck to waste the community's time a few months hence? It would be inevitable if arbcom kicks the can down the road.


 * The 2018 proceeding was terminated by Jytdog in his own self-interests. I appreciate 's and  's comments, but I suggest that it would be a serious mistake to wipe the slate clean and disregard that Jytdog interrupted the 2018 proceeding because he knew that the evidence overwhelmingly supported a site ban. His comment at the time "I urge Arbcom to do just do a motion and indef or site ban me." reflected the inevitability of that outcome. Let's give him unwarranted AGF and assume he sincerely believed what he was saying in 2018, and was not cynically short-circuiting the proceedings in the hope of gaining a better outcome down the road.Even if you take him at his word,  what we have is Jytdog's own assessment that his behavior warranted a siteban or indefinite block, and not yet another chance not to be toxic. Coretheapple (talk) 15:31, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I hear you, and we're not going to disregard it; it will likely show up in the FoFs to be considered in support of one or more remedies. We're not that far in the PD draft yet, so that's all speculation (though I'm a drafter). Editors often rage quit or embarrassment quit, if you will, after an incident that's blown up or an interaction gone wrong, only to later change their minds. Most of the time a return isn't an issue at our level. This time it is, and we're going to look at all his behavior, not just what he's said in the last three months. I'll be interested to hear your comments about the PD when it's posted. Katietalk 17:32, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it is important that when a site ban is a realistic possible outcome of an arbitration case that time be spent investigating whether there are any viable alternatives that will allow an editor to be a positive contribution to the encyclopaedia while protecting the project and its other contributors from harm. In this case, I've yet to be convinced that there is a workable remedy that will allow this, given the variety and nature of the problems brought up in evidence, but it is absolutely right that all the options are explored before a final decision is made. That is exploration is done, and seen to be done, is particularly important when the editor facing the site ban (or a desysop) is someone who might be regarded as an "unblockable" as it will reduce the intensity of the inevitable shit storm at WT:ACN when the case is closed. Thryduulf (talk) 18:17, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that the "remedies" being discussed are nonstarters in this particular situation. I participated in the 2018 arbitration and watched it unfold in realtime. Neither rage nor embarrassment was a factor in the departure. Those two ships had sailed long before. What was happening was that he was about to be banned, as he acknowledged. Coretheapple (talk) 20:00, 29 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Comments from User:Qwirkle
 * There appears to be an unexamined assumption that Jytdog’s editing was a net positive. In the thankfully small interaction I have had with him, I saw little evidence of that. The majority of those interactions involved a conflict between the opinions of one anonymous person on the internet (Where no one knows you’re a jytdog?) on the one side and the Harvard School of Public Health and the Mayo Clinic, among others, on the other. Guess who won? Next, there has been a claim that JD’s campaign against real or imagined COI is somehow protecting the WMF from liability. Little could be further from the truth. Just like (other?) social media sites, Wikipedia is seen as a throughput system, with the original author bearing the primary onus. On the other hand, holding oneself forth as a user-friendly place, and then actively allowing harassment, could have real economic consequences, and not just potential legal ones like we saw in Framban fiasco. Everyone I know of personally with a medical background has, over the past few years, gone from active monetary support, and sometimes rather generous support, to none. That’s anecdotal, of course, and given the vast gap between the WMF’s actual needs and its current income, it could be a decade before that sort of thing has an impact. Finally, it is entirely possible that the excessive emphasis on potential COI has created far more problems that it has solved. Routine good edits, even if by knowledgeable insiders, should be encouraged. Puffery and slanting should be removed, regardless of the source. Good edits Good, Bad edits Bad, regardless of the source. We’d still, of course, have an issue with undue emphasis, but, again, that is solveable, and by means more useful to the reader. Qwirkle (talk) 15:50, 31 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I expect that the Arbcom is capable of distinguishing between “the community” and “whoever happened, or was brought to, ANI that day,” and will act based on this. Part of the problem that this case crystalizes is that ANI is susceptible to gaming. Qwirkle (talk) 18:33, 3 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Comments from User:Pbsouthwood
 * Claims of "net positive" or "net negative" made without reasonably verifiable supporting statistics are purely opinion and all they really say is that the person making the claim likes or does not like what they have seen of the subject of the claim. Decisions made here should be based on what is demonstrably non-compliant with terms of use and project policy. If policy needs to be changed or clarified, that is an issue for a different forum. There are several aspects of our policies which appear to be interpreted differently by different groups, and are frequently at the heart of intractable disputes. Some clarification may help, particularly for people who do not have the skills to read between the lines, or choose to insist that their personal interpretation is correct, or that any interpretation that they can bludgeon other people into accepting as even vaguely possible must necessarily be accepted as a loophole.
 * I can see two possibilities. Either Jytdog has made this request in good faith, with the intention to change their ways, or not. Several people who claim to know Jytdog personally, state that Jytdog is a basically well-meaning person, and not duplicitous. This may be true. If it is true, Jytdog seems to have difficulty staying out of trouble for reasons other than being inherently evil. One possibility is that this is a social competence issue, or an inability to interpret our policies in a way that is acceptable to those who take issue with their actions. Jytdog is by no means the only person who may not be able to interpret some of our policies in the way they were intended. There may be other possibilities. If anyone can think of them, please, in fairness to Jytdog, bring them up.
 * Blocking, banning and other editing restrictions are historically considered preventative measures, not punitive. This may or may not be a useful policy. Blocks could also be considered a teaching intervention, for people who are hard of listening, but may yet be capable of learning from personal experience. If imposed for this reason, the probability of learning from the experience is enhanced if the blocked person actually understands exactly what they have been blocked for. This may require some explanation from the persons imposing the block.
 * I have not had sufficient personal interaction with Jytdog to offer an unsolicited judgement, but I would prefer to see actions taken that will be constructive, both in preventing future trouble of the same or basically similar kind, and both relevant to this specific case and any others with similar causes. &middot; &middot; &middot; Peter Southwood (talk): 07:08, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comments from Thryduulf
 * A split between "trolls" and "non-trolls" is too simplistic. There are people who contribute in good faith but are simply unable to collaboratively and productively edit the English Wikipedia, this could be due to a variety of reasons e.g. insufficient ability with the English language, lack of technical competency, lack of ability to put aside personal preferences/prejudices and defer to consensus, and lack of ability to work within the bounds of certain key policies (NPOV, NOR, NPA, copyright, etc.). I genuinely believe that Jytdog's goals align with Wikipedia's - he wants to contribute in good faith. However the problem is that his behaviour, in multiple ways, is fundamentally incompatible with the collaborative editing environment and Wikipedia's policies. In order for someone to change their behaviour they have to acknowledge and understand that it needs changing and importantly how and why it needs changing. Almost nobody is seeing evidence of this necessary awareness from Jytdog, which fits the pattern we've seen over the years - he doesn't repeat the exact same problem twice, instead he does something equally bad but very slightly different - there is no understanding of why what he did was bad, despite repeated explanations from multiple people. Thryduulf (talk) 10:13, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I’d have to add a slight nuance to this. People who believe that citations, and the research that should go with them, are merely “tactical” can not share the goals with someone trying to create an encyclopedia in the way that wikipedia does. It’s a fundamental disconnect. Jytdog represents an extreme case of an unfortunately common sort of wikiteur, someone who believe he knows things (rightly or wrongly), and uses cites tendentiously to support his vision of facts. Such people are often well-meaning, but their work is radically misaligned with both wikipdia, and with construction of a traditional encyclopedia. Qwirkle (talk) 14:59, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Without commenting on the larger point, note that based on context, I believe the use of "[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Qwirkle&diff=prev&oldid=679966116 tactical]" wasn't meant in the way you suggest. As far as I can tell, Jytdog was asking if there was any underlying motivation or guiding principles being followed by you, and so used "tactical" as a contrast. I agree the message could have been more clearly stated. isaacl (talk) 16:15, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Could be, but given the general pattern of blindly adding cites which did not support his position elsewhere, I suspect otherwise. Qwirkle (talk) 21:31, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi for what it's worth, let me emphasize that my opinion is that "most contributors who are not trolls are capable of reform", which is somewhat different from "all contributors who are not trolls are capable of reform". I agree that there are some people, thankfully I think a small percentage, who try to participate here and can't participate constructively enough to be a net positive. Most people who are in this category, such as people who struggle to write in English, thankfully seem to respect these limitations.
 * By the way, I am not claiming that English is a superior language, and my own limits include, for example, not trying to participate in complex discussions on German Wikipedia because I don't know enough German. ↠Pine   (<b style="color:#FFDF00;text-shadow:#FFDF00 0 0 1.0em">✉</b>)  23:03, 2 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Comments from Montanabw
 * When reviewing his public block log, the bulk of the evidence, and the number of unique complaints (as opposed to the walls of text on this page, nearly half from a single individual), it is clear that Jytdog has a longstanding problem with incivility, bullying, harassment, and simply refusing to drop the stick. There’s a line between dedication and being a zealot, he crossed it long ago.
 * The only thing that surprises me is that he remained so lightly sanctioned for so long. But this is in part because some of his abuses were supported by others. It’s really a bit terrifying to take on Jytdog and those who back him without question as indeed, he routinely went after flies with a sledgehammer.
 * While I have had a few civil interactions with Jytdog over the years, many were negative. But rather than contributing to the diff collection, I’ll simply say that the negative evidence here presented by others aligns with my experiences, though some of what’s here is worse than what I dealt with.  Montanabw (talk) 21:25, 3 April 2020 (UTC)