Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive11

Grandmaster
User Grandmaster was a party to both Armenia-Azerbaijan and Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 ArbCom cases. According to the remedies imposed on him in these cases, Grandmaster is subject to supervised editing and "is limited to one revert per page per week, excepting obvious vandalism. Further, he is required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page."

In the Nagorno-Karabakh_Republic article, Grandmaster made a revert without discussing it on the talk page. Here is his revert:

It's a partial revert of the article introduction to a prior version. The prior version can be seen here:

In his revert, he basically restored the phrase "within the borders of Azerbaijan," which had been previously changed to "entirely surrounded by Azerbaijan" in the following edit by me:.

Note that partial restorations of text--i.e. partial reverts, are still considered reverts: "However, in the context of the English Wikipedia three revert rule, a revert is defined far more broadly as any change to an article that partially or completely goes back to any older version of an article." (Revert)

Grandmaster failed to accompany his revert on the talk page, as required by the ArbCom decision.

Note that Grandmaster's comment on the talk page does not satisfy this requirement, since he made that comment only in response to User:Steelmate's post on the talk page, after User:Steelmate had already reverted Grandmaster's revert  and discussed it on the talk page.

Here are the edit histories for the Nagorno-Karabakh_Republic article and the relevant talk page.

--TigranTheGreat (talk) 18:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * First of all, it is not a revert, second, I left a comment. Frivolous report. Grandmaster (talk) 07:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

If that is a revert, if Grandmaster didn't leave a comment exactly as he should - there's too many ifs in there, so I'm not really inclined to block for such a technical infraction, particularly in the context of the article just being split off from another and tempers raging rather high at the moment. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 15:55, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Mediation by Moreschi on Armenia-Azerbaijan related articles
In thread below, User:Moreschi kindly proposed to mediate and arbitrate in Armenia-Azerbaijan related articles. I think it's better if other contributors present their thoughts here in support or opposition of the proposal. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 00:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Atabek's request, and Moreschi's offer (which several users have rejected, considering the existing mediation by Golbez) needs to be considered in its context. The relevant accusations and responses appear on the ANI page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Golbez_and_VartanM), and should be read by those considering Atabek's request. Basically, Golbez has been mediating on the Nagorno-Karabakh article. Following extremely disruptive edits and posts by Atabek, Golbez made it known that Atabek's inputs are not welcome, as they are provocative. As I and other users (such as Steelemate) have stated, fulfilling Atabek's request will be tantamount to rewarding a disruptive editor who tries to push away a mediator with whom he disagrees. Therefore, and given Golbez' current mediation, I and other users have respectfully rejected Moreschi's offer. We may welcome him in the future.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 02:11, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Tigran, what makes you think that you and Steelmate are not disruptive while I am? Just the fact that Golbez and you are on one side of content dispute and I, along with few other contributors, am on the other does not suffice to call me disruptive. So assume good faith. Also, I believe this thread only asked for points explaining the rejection of Moreschi's kind offer (it's not an easy task to mediate and arbitrate this conflict) endorsed by at least 2 administrators at WP:ANI. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 09:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that Golbez should step down as a mediator on NK and other Armenia - Azerbaijan related articles. So far not a single Azerbaijani contributor agreed to his mediation. I agree that Moreschi or any other third party contributor takes up the role of mediator. Grandmaster (talk) 08:40, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I am dissatisfied with Golbez's mediation. He frequently resorts to spinosity and can get emotional - something mediators should avoid at all costs. I do not have anything against Moreschi taking over as a mediator. Parishan (talk) 09:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Is Parishan really dissatisfied of Golbez mediation? I wonder when was the last time he was engaged in any mediation to be dissatisfied? His participation on NK was basically reverting to Grandmasters position and sometimes providing a line or two, when he was criticized that he does not comment. Only after Atabek was singled out did he come to contribute there, and his arguments show that he doesn't even understand what the problem was really about.


 * This mentality of taking sides, Azerbaijani’s on one side and Armenians on the other isn’t helping anyone. If someone has the right to criticize Golbez's mediation, that person has to actually be engaged in the mediation process, those who were there when Francis and Golbez settled the issue before Atabek came and screwed it up. Coming here and claiming that his dissatisfied on a mediation that he wasn't even involved with besides a few comments which were already repeated by another contributor, doesn’t in any way weight in when commenting about Golbez's participation.


 * The point has been made, so why does Parishan continues pulling Golbez's foot? I think administrators should first understand the rational of Atabek's illogical, irrational requests. It won't be the first nether the last time contributors like Atabek pushed members to the extreme. VartanM (talk) 01:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I found Golbez's answer following my comment inadequate and inappropriate, and I did point it out to him . And my response did correspond to the question posed by him. I think that experience was memorable enough to allow me to draw conclusions from this mediation. In any event, I was actually trying to make a fruitful contribution, rather than attributing "bazaar mentality" to ethnicities, whose representatives happen to disagree with me. Parishan (talk) 11:03, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm quite happy with Golbez's mediation. He has solved long running issues and is very well familiar with the conflict and the history of the situation, his neutrality has only been challenged by pov pushers. Switching to another mediator will not be constructive.--  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 10:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That's not what I proposed. I'm also quite happy with Golbez's mediation. I'm more worried about everywhere else - the locus of dispute is not restricted to just this one article. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 10:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I would also be happy with word "mediation" applied in Golbez case, if someone could explain what mediation actually means, other than what is defined in the relevant article: "Mediation, a form of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), aims to assist two (or more) disputants in reaching an agreement.". It's clear from his edits and talk page comments, and the whole "raving maniacs" thing, that, with all due respect, he is more a disputant (within definition given above) than a mediator. Can we bring this to some formal board where a decision can be taken on who should actually mediate the articles? Because as of now, a group of users is refusing to contribute to the articles due to Golbez's activity, and when independent arbitrator like Moreschi offers his services, another group rejects for not quite detailed reasons but that  it simply wants to continue "pushing POV". Atabek (talk) 11:22, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Atabek, my comment on Golbeze's page was simply the product of you calling him an pro-Armenian, interested only listening to the Armenians. Same applies to the bazaar comment. I was under the impression that if I really started pushing POV just the way you claim that I do. And if it were anywhere near the level of your own pushed POV maybe then, the mediators would be able to reach a consensus and not be called pro-Armenian. I quickly changed my mind about that theory, for the simple reason that the last thing this project needs is another destructive user. And by destructive, I mean someone who is able to halt any productive discussion          by driving the mediator to the point of snapping  and then reporting him to ANI . VartanM (talk) 22:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * And I never rejected Moreschi's offer. The more neutral eyes we have on AA articles the better. Maybe then the compassions of NK to the Nazis will end. Also I didn't see you complaining about Golbez when he protected the Shushi article on a "right version". That wasn't really a pro-Armenian was it? VartanM (talk) 01:27, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

When you behave like a raving maniac, a moderator needs to point that out. He is doing you a favor, so you will step away and not sabotage the efforts of your fellow editors. Sometimes I get short breath just by reading your incessant tirades against your opponents. It's good if someone tells you to calm down and stop screaming.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 19:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I am in favor of having any impartial mediator. So far, Golbez has not proven to be one. All of the above clearly indicate quite the opposite. I am for Moreschi's help. --Ehud (talk) 01:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Banned members have no say in this. You are banned so you should learn to face it. - Fedayee (talk) 03:09, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep talking. Maybe this compensates your anger. --Ehud (talk) 06:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of what we say or think, there should be a change or rotation in mediation. One person cannot be mediator for his or her lifetime. If there is a call for change, why not to face it? I think we should follow this simple logic in this given case too. --Aynabend (talk) 21:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * As far as I am concerned, you’ve been OK so far, even thought I disagree with you very strongly on many issues. You have not come to discuss with Golbez, you’ve left Vartan with Atabek, which resulted into this. At least in your case you don’t say anything while Grandmaster pushes any misbehavior of Atabek under the carpet and then switches roles.


 * Didn’t it cross your mind that when Golbez said that he wanted the Azerbaijani position explained by another person other than Atabek, it could have been you? I think the call for change should be justified, what was the problem really?... it was the removal by Atabek of a word and the emblem. Is it really worth it to have another person go through thousands of texts and countless pages of discussion for two problems, one of which was a non-issue at least by the two sides before Atabek created this artificial problem?


 * For an artificial problem created and maintained by Atabek, we have not only one article to work on, but three now; the split and the FORK created by Grandmaster. Where does this lead us to? Logically, it should be Atabek that should be prevented from participating in those articles and you to come there and present your position and I am certain that the issue could be resolved without Atabek’s implication. Just try it, and then say if Golbez is what he was pictured here to be. - Fedayee (talk) 23:37, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Golbez's mediation did not work. It is time to try someone else. I will file a request for mediation soon. Grandmaster (talk) 08:20, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

VartanM
User:VartanM is a party to ArbCom He has recently pushed the limit, by attacking a whole ethnicity again: :
 * "Atabek its clear to me that Azeris have a bazar mentality in negotiations. As in you tart with your own ridiculously high price and wait for the Armenian to come up with its own ridiculously low price, go back and forth until a medium is reached then call it a deal. What has happened so far is that Azeris came up with the high price, but we the naive Armenians ask for the medium price right from the start, Azeris get confused and think that the medium is the low price and push for more."

I am not sure how long and how many times will this Arbitration Committee condone VartanM's attacks and the attack by TigranTheGreat like reported below on other contributors along ethnic lines and allow generalizations such as above. These contributors have been warned already at several instances.

No one likes being insulted or attacked for free contributions to free encyclopedia at own time and leisure. I hope Arbitration Committee will take this into consideration. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 18:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Chaps, attacking an ethnicity is only indirectly a violation of Wikipedia policy, but it's annoying and not something we want to see too much more of (Wikipedia ain't a soapbox either).
 * And, yes, Vartan, please don't do that. Nobody should. It's not much of a policy violation but it really does not help with the atmosphere around here, which is quite toxic enough as it is. There'd be no point browbeating an apology out of you, but please restrain from making such similar statements in the future. You're a classier sort of gentleman than that. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 19:23, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Arbitration enforcement is getting stupidly clogged up with your battles. At the moment it ain't all really working, I think you'll both agree. Perhaps we need a new approach. Here's an idea. I'll be full-time mediator and admin-enforcer to the Armenia-Azeri fights for a fortnight. If you accept, fine. If so, however, we're going to have work out a system whereby I get told where the latest fights are breaking out, because I haven't got every single Armenia-Azeri article listed. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 19:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Moreschi, I think that would be great if you could dedicate some time to Azeri-Armenian articles. I will be more than glad to cooperate in your efforts. Keep me informed, and I can provide you with a list of all disputed articles.

But for this particular case, I also want to request that VartanM be demanded an apology for insulting an entire ethnicity. It's really inappropriate and every time he makes a violation and is given a green light, just because it's reported by opposite side, he continues similar attacks next time. Atabek (talk) 19:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I am sorry to report this also, but VartanM engaged in another attack along ethnic and personal lines against User:Ehud Lesar. Perhaps, he needs to be explained to calm down. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 19:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you need to calm down. Just today you have already alienated one admin (Golbez) with your hyperventilating style of argumentation. Going around and accusing all your opponents in "attacking along national lines" is disruptive and annoying. Vartan made a simple point--User Ehud's behavior strongly suggests that he is a sock of Adil, and as such, he is impersonating someone having a Jewish name. Unless Ehud wants to bring up the issue himself and subject himself to checkuser, you need to move on and stop your disruptive behavior. --TigranTheGreat (talk) 02:11, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Tigran, if VartanM is not "attacking along national lines", why is User:Ehud Lesar's ethnic background is even a subject of discussion in Wikipedia? Does any Wikipedia rule proclaim that the user must state his ethnicity or be claimed as a sock otherwise? There is a simple method for proving a contributor is a sock of another - filing a checkuser. Is it really so much harder than assuming so much bad faith? Atabek (talk) 12:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The diffs of VartanM cited by Atabek are not actionable. Thatcher131 02:15, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's more, a personal attack on Atabek, accusations of trolling, etc. Quote: Atabek is clearly trolling and baiting you to say things that you wouldn't normally say. My advise is to ignore him, but if it continues you can report him to the administrators at WP:ANI. Also, constant accusations of User:Ehud Lesar being a sock of banned user Adil is another personal attack. VartanM knows very well that checkuser proved that Ehud and Adil are not related, but keeps attacking Ehud on any occasion. How many warnings can one person be given? I think it is time Vartan stops attacking other users, whom he happened to disagree with. Grandmaster (talk) 08:52, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Atabek, you're also a part of ArbCom and how many times you attacked Armenian side with the words like "separatists", "ethnic cleansings" etc (last time 2 days ago at Talk:Shusha)? and your last "editions" at Baku: after the Black January pogroms when the whole Armenian population fled the city its even very hard for you to see the word Armenian there in the article- when a prominent person from Baku was really an Armenian and in some cases was pressed to leave Baku like Armenian-Jewish Kasparov and his family? What about tolerance? Pls try to be more tolerant before asking about other users! Andranikpasha (talk) 13:00, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Andranikpasha, since when the words "separatist" and "ethnic cleansing", with listed facts and references in historical debate, are considered an attack? And Kasparov is a prominent person, not because he is from Baku and not because he is Armenian-Jewish, but because he became a chess grandmaster. And by the way, before Black January pogroms, Kasparov received education in Baku, elevated and paid for all his chess tournaments up to championship by no one other than the leader of Azerbaijan Heydar Aliyev. And by the way, when Armenians were leaving on ships or trains prior to Black January, Kasparov was chartering a comfortable plain for his family to leave to Moscow, safely, escorted from Baku airport. And by the way, if you look at my edits at Baku, I removed most Azerbaijani ethnic classification from prominent people listings as well. The article is about the city of Baku and prominent people from the city, not about their ethnic backgrounds. So WP:AGF. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 13:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thatcher131, may I remind you about few comments for which I was blocked before, links listed here: , . Perhaps, you could look at both links and since you don't find anything actionable in VartanM's "Azeris have a bazar mentality in negotiations" and "Atabek is clearly trolling and baiting you to say things that you wouldn't normally say", explain me what was "actionable" in what I said then? Atabek (talk) 11:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Different admins have different standards. It is obvious in context that VartanM meant bazaar, not bizzare, and it was a comment on negotiation tactics.  I could adopt the  view that every talk page comment that said "the [blank] people all do this" is a personal attack and ban the whole damn lot of you.  Certainly a more aggressive enforcement approach would fall on you as well. Thatcher131 14:35, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The thing is that I don't remember a single instance of any Azerbaijani user making generalizing comments about the Armenian people. I don't remember any Azerbaijani user ever saying "you Armenians are this and that". Previous report was dealing with comments of TigranTheGreat about the modern Azerbaijani people, to whom he referred as "so called Azerbaijanis" "with fictional ethnic identity", etc. It was not a matter of historical dispute, into which some users managed to change the discussion. If such remarks about the whole people are acceptable here, then everyone should feel free to make similar comments without the risk of being sanctioned. It is not even a matter of enforcing the arbcom decisions, it is more about the general atmosphere in talk pages, which keeps on deteriorating. I believe some sort of a general warning should be given to make users refrain from such inflammatory statements. Grandmaster (talk) 16:45, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Grandmaster. Such statements on a certain ethnicity indicate ethnic harted. I think VartanM should apologize for his unfair remarks about Azerbaijanis. Ethnic hatred should not be tolerated by admins in Wikipedia. Furthermore, Tigran should file a checkuser on my account along with people who think alike, if that makes him this worried that I am Adil Bagirov. So, Tigran and others, just stop talking and use your time to file a checkuser instead. Or, is it better for you that I am not checked so that you keep repeating the same melody over and over? I think the latter option suits your interests well and that's why you're inactive. --Ehud (talk) 01:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It has been already demonstrated that your persona is a fake one. We will all treat you as Adil because you are Adil. It was already pointed out that Lesar is Sephardic not Ashkenazi. It is unlikely that any Jew will ever support the claim that a few deaths amount to genocide and even to reply to an objection to the ridiculous comparison between Auschwitz and Khojaly by supporting the one who made such a ridiculous, plain and pathetic comparison.


 * No Jew will have any interest at calling Sevan (in the republic of Armenia) by its "Azerbaijani" name, or it being Azerbaijani land... all of which are claims exclusively made by Adil Baguirov.


 * We know now that Azizbekov was not a sock of a banned member... he has been banned by the ridiculous accusations brought forward by Grandmaster. But of course, here we have an obvious case of sock puppetry and administrators unsurprisingly remain silent. All the editors implicated (Armenian as much Azeri) have the knowledge to invade checkusers, particularly Adil, and on various occasions it was obvious it was him behind the sock puppetry, even without checkuser confirmation. It is no secret that there is an Atabek and Adil connection, so there should not be any surprise as to why Ehud always appears to give a hand to Atabek, just like when Adil was raining in with sockpuppets to come to Atabek’s defense. - Fedayee (talk) 03:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Grandmaster, you sound like you have very short memory. It wasn’t until recently that there were such comments and this happening because there are no consequences for what Atabek has been saying and doing for a very long time. And I witness that again you use the “Armenian and Azerbaijani” editors’ card. I don’t get it, why don’t you stick to reporting and start making less offending comments? You compared Armenia with Saddam’s Iraq, which, unlike the claim of a weak Azerbaijani national identity, is not substantiated. Tell me, how was your comparison any less offending when it was those same analogies, which have grown to become comparisons with the NAZIs, which have finally pushed Tigran into making those comments. If you don’t want others to make comments which you find offending, maybe you should also listen to other editors when they find your comments offending. I have not seen you doing anything when Atabek added his stuff in his user page offending Armenian users, he knew they were offending and only removed them when he wanted to comment in the request for arbitration page because he was probably scared to have his recent contributions analysed. - Fedayee (talk) 03:41, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It has been already demonstrated that your persona is a fake one. We will all treat you as Adil because you are Adil Demonstrated? By what? By repetitive sounds of nonsense? And who are you to treat me as Adil or any other user? Who is we? Do you guys mass mail each other and decide how to "treat" other users?
 * Really impressed about your knowledge on Jewish roots and even their views. Really astounding to see how you speak so well on behalf of Jews. It's up to the Admins to decide who's a sock and who's not. I think they are smart enough to determine who's who. But please do continue writing. Otherwise it'll get boring. --Ehud (talk) 06:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Fedayee, before accusing me of having a short memory you may wish to recall that “Armenian and Azerbaijani” editors’ card has already been played by Vartan (remember his "bazaar mentality" speech?). And I never compared Armenia with anyone, the discussion was about whether or not we can present as official an emblem of the city, introduced by occupational forces, and I reminded of a similar situation in another region of the world. And please stop attacking Ehud, it has never been demonstrated that his persona is fake, on the contrary, it has officially been proven that he has nothing to do with Adil. See this checkuser once again. I recommend Ehud to take this to WP:ANI next time anyone repeats this baseless sockpuppetry accusation, it is harassment and should be dealt with as such. Grandmaster (talk) 07:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You know checkusers will not show anything and you know nothing has been demonstrated of that sort. Ehud is Adil, we already confirmed this, so please for your own sake stop claiming it was demonstrated, I will start believing that you know it and defend him.


 * It isn’t difficult at all to confirm it, here are the same myths which were said by Adil who calls Sevan, Geycha (and the theory about it being Azerbaijani land)… here is the near identical claim again by Adil..


 * When you search in the talkpages, all the hits excluding one, point either to Adil and Ehud, for Geycha for the way Adil calls it by its “Azerbaijani” name. If you read Adil’s claim, you will see those claims put forward by Adil are identical to the ones put forward by Ehud. Neither you, nor even Atabek have ever made those claims about Sevan, they were exclusively Adil’s thing.


 * There can be no reasonable doubt that it is Adil, the ancestry of that family is Sephardic while Ehud claims otherwise… he calls Sevan, and which is in the republic of Armenia, by an Azerbaijani name, again Adil’s baseless claims, no one brought it up, at least not this way, Atabek calls its “Azerbaijani” name Gokcha not Geycha.


 * The sarcasm too is 100% Adil. Adil has been known to impersonate, Jewish, Armenian and various other ethnicities already and we know he can escape checkusers. So I doubt that you buy the claim that it was demonstrated that it was not Adil, when it is 100% sure that this guy is Adil. As for your comment about short memory, you ignore again all the things which were done for months by Atabek, aimed at provoking members with offending comments and you merely put your finger on a recent event, no comment is even needed for that. - Fedayee (talk) 18:39, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It is OK to read these theories for me. They bring laughter. I am just kind of puzzled. By being an Armenian, and supposedly not speaking Azeri, what are you trying to prove by stating that one user calls the region Gokcha and the other one calls it Geycha? For your information, if you open the doors to Azerbaijani articles and try to consider the other side of the story, you would come to know that Gokcha is transliteration from Russian, and Geycha from Azerbaijani. If two users are using different transliterations, why would one think the rest of the people belong to one category or another? If you did some real research instead of your "investigation", you would come to come that resources compiled/written based on Azeri sources or transliteration would state the name as "Geycha"; if Russian - then "Gokcha", etc. It's a matter of choice, Mr. fedayee. Atabek chose to use "Gokcha", Adil chose "Geycha". For your information, one of your friends got the name from Russian transliteration, while in Azeri sources it is Azizbayov or Azizbeyov. I see now that, according to your logic, in the few days, weeks, years, you'll be calling the rest of the Azeris, Jews, Georgians, Americans who use one or another way of calling the region, "Adils", "Atabeks" from now on.
 * Same applies to Adil Bagirov's posts on Zangezur and Geycha you provided links of, which he must have learned from websites, books, articles, and what others haven't learned much about. I, in my turn, have learned the history of both Armenia and Azerbaijan, and am mentioning what I had learned. Geycha and Zangezur, which are the present day Sevan and Syunik, have been a part of Azerbaijan up until they were transferred to Armenia in the beginning of the 20th century. I am not saying they weren't once a part of Armenian Empire. They belonged to both of the nations in various periods of time. The bottom line is that they are a part of independent Republic of Armenia and were recognized as part of Armenia by international community when it got its independence, as much as Karabakh is a part of Azerbaijan Republic and were recognized as part of Azerbaijan by international community; however was a subject to occupation by Armenian armed forced. You may call it a "myth" as much as you like, but it's a recorded history. You are so brainwashed by your own ideology, that you don't give yourself a chance to look at the other side of the paper. --Ehud (talk) 02:50, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The only thing you do with your answers is to confirm more and more that you are Adil. I have accumulated evidence that shows that even your intimidations and accusations are identical to Adil Baguirov. I will provide the evidence on ANI. It is also known why it would not have been logical that Adil Baguirov’s IP could have matched with yours, since Adil left for his postdoctoral only after he was banned, you forced me to say why the IP could not match even if he was not to use an open proxy. I will not say anything more on why your justifications are bogus, we'll see it on ANI and you will be free to reply. I will not be filling an Arbitration request, because my trust for the arbitration has reached an all-time low, I will only hope some administrators will use some of their time to go through the evidence. - Fedayee (talk) 06:53, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Fedayee, I strongly encourage you to file a report to ANI, because your harassment of Ehud has to stop. It is about the time admins put an end to this. Let them check all the evidence and results of cu and pass their own judgement. Grandmaster (talk) 08:18, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Quite clear above, in my posts, that there are no posts involving any sort of intimidation. I am not sure why you choose that kind of words if you understand that it'll be clear to any English speaking person that there are no intimidations on my part, only your continuous harrassment, baseless accusations, negative attitude. I must say that it's rather positive that you're so impressed by Adil Bagirov; so impressed that you happen to follow his life cycle, but I think you should free your mind from the name Ehud Lesar. File a checkuser, provide any kind of evidence on ANI, so that the administrators see, assess and evaluate, and clear out for you once and for all that I am not and never have been another user. Maybe then you'll stop your never ending harrassment. --Ehud (talk) 08:22, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

VartanM's choice of words was full of flavour. In light of the prior Arbcom cases this is not ideal, but among the reams of talk on these pages it isn't surprising that we all get frustrated from time to time and wax a bit lyrical about the tactics of others. The correct response at these times is to AGF, which in this case would mean assuming VartanM meant bazaar :- a jovial call for clarification would have been more effective then bringing this to AN/AE.

Fedayee, this thread is about VartanM, not Ehud Lesar. If you have enough proof that Ehud Lesar is someone else, "put up or shut up" until such time as you are ready to put your cards on the table. John Vandenberg (talk) 13:28, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

SPA and ArbCom
This user is an SPA for an article which was subject to ArbCom (whose resultant decision prohibited SPA's) Requests for arbitration/St Christopher ChampionHero (talk) 14:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Single purpose accounts may be banned for making disruptive edits. Please provide diffs of such edits.  (There appears to be no restriction on SPAs unless they are disruptive. Thatcher131 17:58, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Some whitewashing, not a good sign, and frankly I've yet to see an SPA there that was not disruptive. Guy (Help!) 21:11, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

None of my edits have been disruptive, feel free to check my history with regard to that article. I have actually recently restored sourced and valid information to the page that was removed by another user in an attempt to whitewash the article (with that user violating the 1RR they were placed under by another admin. for edit waring on that particular article with another editor). Anyway, there is something terribly suspicious regarding the original editor that lodged the request here. They have one edit to their name and it is to this board to complain about other editors? Smells like a sock to me. StrongPassword (talk) 10:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's also necessary to discuss inappropriate actions that appear to have been taken against editors listed at the bottom of that arbitration page under "Logs of Blocks and Bans". Nearly all of the editors had general, indefinite bans placed on them for being SPA's, while the "Remedies" and "Enforcement" sections of the Request for Arbitration do not allow for that. According to the enforcement section "Page bans shall be enforced by brief blocks of up to a week for repeated violations. After five such blocks, the maximum block length increases to a year." Clearly neither the Remedies (which only discussed bans from the article in question and it's related content NOT all of Wikipedia as what happens with an indefinite, general block) nor the Enforcement criteria were followed in sanctioning those editors. Something really needs to be done about that. StrongPassword (talk) 11:18, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I consider your edits disruptive - in fact, I consider virtually all edits to that article by people with no significant history outside that article to be disruptive. It has been nothing but a battleground for as long as I can remember, and the very last thing we need is more people joining the battle without actually contributing to the encyclopaedia. I don't think much of your calling my edits "vandalism" either. Guy (Help!) 11:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't call your edits vandalism, I considered those of the editor that removed sourced and valid information from the article "vandalism" (which can easily been seen in the articles edit history). Your assertion that my edits are "disruptive" is meaningless as I doubt any rational administrator will agree with you. StrongPassword (talk) 11:40, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I am troubled by your edits. Pretty much the most notable thing about that college, the source of most of its UK coverage and the whole source of its discussion in numerous venues, is the fact that the GMC specifically cites it as a cause of their removal of registration from a doctor, and setting up a list of unrecognised institutions.  Causing the General Medical Council to strike a doctor off and change its practices is a pretty big deal, to the point that it belongs in the lead of this article on the UK entity.  Your reaction to this was to revert, and your reaction to edits by another editor is also to revert - you are demonstrating WP:OWN problems, and I would say that your edits to that article are therefore disruptive.  The solution is pretty simple: leave it alone and edit some other articles.  The restriction only applies to single purpose accounts. Guy (Help!) 12:20, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I am troubled by your edits as well. Your edits show you are obviously trying to push your POV on this article and are refusing to hash it out on the talk page. Just because you feel something is notable does not mean it is so. If you read the article from the GMC closely you will see that the GMC never said they setup the list in response to St. Christopher's, there is your own synthesis and extrapolation of the information in the article. I did no revert the non-redundant information that you included, it was moved to the media section where it belongs. Your decision that my edits are disruptive is inappropriate when you are involved in editing the article yourself and are pushing a particular agenda. A neutral administrator needs to determine if my edits are disruptive. I will not accept your decision in this matter because you have a pre-existing conflict of interest. StrongPassword (talk) 12:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * User:StrongPassword has been blocked for 24hrs for disruptive behaviour on St Christopher Iba Mar Diop College of Medicine. Note that Arbcom didnt just say disruptive edits - even good edits by an SPA, when done in a disruptive fashion, are sufficient to result in a block and banning if required. John Vandenberg (talk) 12:39, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that; as a result I have finally managed to get an unconflicted edit to more fully reference the content. It's not every medical college that can claim to have changed GMC policy, after all. Guy (Help!) 12:53, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Request for Clarification for User:Fyslee
This user, Fyslee was subject to a recent arbitration ruling (ie, March 2007). Fyslee has gone out of his way to harass, threaten, as well as try very hard to goad me into making personal attacks against him/her. Here are some specific behavior issues: The only reason I am bringing this up at all is because of the request for clarification made by User:Orangemarlin below. But now that I have been shown how to make a complaint against Fyslee, I am freely doing so. For the last 1 and 3/4 years I have been editing articles in peace on Wikipedia, minding my own business. But fairly recently, a group of skeptics have been trying very hard to goad me into making personal attacks against them. In my opinion, it was mostly due to User:Fyslee trying to force his/her partisan point of view on several articles related to alternative medicine. -- John Gohde (talk) 19:29, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yet, another instance of Fyslee's non-stop harassment, and goading is shown in his/reply below. Fyslee is always trying to force his/her partisan point of view into everything.
 * 1) 02:20, 21 December 2007--personal attack plus trying to goad me into making a personal attack
 * 2) 02:18, 21 December 2007--threatening me plus trying to goad me into making a personal attack
 * 3) 21:06, 18 December 2007--personal attack plus trying to goad me into making a personal attack
 * 4) 01:43, 18 December 2007--Repeated my name in the edit summary
 * 5) 01:42, 18 December 2007--Put my name in the edit summary as well as tried to goad me into making a personal attack
 * 6) 22:17, 16 December 2007--trying to goad me into making a personal attack
 * 7) 15:44, 16 December 2007--personal attack plus trying to goad me into making a personal attack
 * 8) 10:11, 12 December 2007--forcing his partisan point of view because I had already answered in extreme detail
 * 9) 01:48, 12 December 2007--forcing his partisan point of view because I had already answered in extreme detail
 * 10) 19:46, 29 November 2007--Totally unprovoked personal attack--Miscellany for deletion/Portal:CAM
 * 11) * Without a doubt the very first personal attack was made by Fyslee. -- John Gohde (talk) 20:12, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I must say this is an interesting type of WP:POINT violation - creating this section to attack me, as a response to the RfC below (which was raised by another user!). As a violation of WP:POINT and obvious bad faith contribution, please remove this whole section as this is a classic ad hominem personal attack only intended to divert attention from the real issues raised below. --  Fyslee  /  talk  19:00, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * And, of course, we're ignoring the ruling with respect to Fyslee:

3.1) Fyslee is cautioned to use reliable sources and to edit from a NPOV. He is reminded that editors with a known partisan point of view should be careful to seek consensus on the talk page of articles to avoid the appearance of a COI if other editors question their edits.

passed 7-0 at 12:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * He was cautioned, not put on probation like John Gohde, and has worked for consensus. This Clarification for User is bogus and should be eliminated.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 19:15, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Fyslee should be permanently banned from editing any article related to alternative medicine becuase he/she has tried to block collaboration every step of the way. Fyslee has been talking constantly about personal attacks while I have been successfully editing articles, bothering absolutely nobody.  And, here Orangemarlin for absolutely no reason reverted two of my edits today because of a ruling in 2004!!! And, filed a request for Clarification on Christmas day, just to goad me into making a personal attack. -- John Gohde (talk) 19:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry? What's Christmas?  If you're so easy to goad into making a personal attack, should you be here?  Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 20:08, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Most of the diffs cited by User:John Gohde at the top of this complaint show Fyslee being reasonably civil. At least one (the last diff, which John Gohde has helpfully bolded) shows John Gohde himself in a worse light than Fyslee ("science trolls"?) But then, I suppose I'm not uninvolved, as I've previously been unimpressed with John Gohde's canvassing and advice to other users on how to game Wikipedia's policies (,, , , etc). MastCell Talk 22:27, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

If anyone wants to find good examples of John Gohde's personal attacks and other parole violations, just use the links he posts as examples of personal attacks by other users. They inevitably show that he is the attacking party. His own talk page's history makes an interesting study in the deletion of warnings and good advice, even ridiculing admins when they warn him. This is entirely consistent with his stated opinion of admins as "mentally ill individual[s]" : "The only picture that I get of an Admin at Wikipedia is that of a mentally ill individual. In my humble opinion, you cannot have a rational conversation or any kind of a rational exchange of ideas with the mentally ill."

Anyone who is in doubt about his purpose here can read his website description of Wikipedia here: "Try to promote any subject matter on Wikipedia and you will quickly get the attention of at least one of these mentally ill admins. I promoted Alternative Medicine all too well." "I actually accomplished what I had originally intended to do at Wikipedia, on day one, before I even set up a user name. But, I was so quickly attacked by hordes of Wikipedians so bent on destroying what I had edited that I decided to stick around a whole lot longer. One thing lead to another, and I ended up promoting alternative medicine in general." He isn't here to write in an NPOV manner, but to "promote alternative medicine." Advocacy is forbidden here. It's rather odd that he accuses others of being "partisan", when he himself is probably one of the most "partisan" editors at Wikipedia.

Since this RfC (based on his own stated reason) is an obvious violation of WP:POINT, a bad faith action, and an ad hominem personal attack only intended to divert attention from the real issues raised below (which have now led to his blocking for 48 hrs.), what more is needed to get this deleted? Misuse of this board for personal attacks and soapboxing is disruptive and should not be rewarded. Please delete this. --  Fyslee  /  talk  23:44, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Darwinek and breach of standard civility parole
The administrator Darwinek did not take too kindly to my edits at Duchy of Teschen where I had changed the names in the article to Teschen, which is the predominate (majority) usage in English. The user came to my talk page and accused me of, among other things, stalking, not being a good editor at all, not knowing anything, being vengeful, not understanding content and destroying it, etc. Also, that he has created or contributed to many featured articles and since I have not, I am not an editor at all and he is a good editor. The differences are here:, ,. It should also be noted that there have also been two RfCs against Darwinek and note made of his preferences when changing article names and content, as shown here: Requests for arbitration/Darwinek. The arbitration to which he is subject is located at Requests for arbitration/Darwinek and the relevant civility parole requirement is here: Requests for arbitration/Darwinek. I found most all of this looking for the proper means to file a request yet learnt he was already subject to one. I am no angel myself and readily admit to a temper, yet I make a concerted effort at remaining level headed. I was shocked with how this administrator (these should represent the very best of our editors, a class I don't claim to be in, but I'm pretty good) spoke to me and I feel he is exercising a bias in naming (as noted in the ArbCom and his comments about German names on my page) and that he should be subject to discipline as he is still under parole. His comments also go against WP:OWN, as well as the aforementioned WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. Feel free to ask me any questions, I will be more than happy to answer. Charles 00:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow. Charles is first engaging in a series of personal attacks on several pages, and then when he succeeds in baiting Darwinek, he complains that he is being attacked. I read Dawrinek's posts and yes, the second in the series of three on Charles page is mildly incivil (as far as my standards go, but I have learned that my civility standards are too often set too high anyway...) - but Darwinek's reaction is hardly surprising considering the baiting from Charles that came before it (in many posts); it is certainly no more incivil than Charles' preceding threats of "you will be reported and punished" in his discussion of Darwinek, and probably less than Charles' opening a new discussion with bad faith accusations and following it with accusations of editors who disagreed with him being skewed, accusing them of hating Germany, "purposeful obscuration" and so on. While I'd like to see Darwinek refactor his posts and try to keep his cool down, I don't see the need for any further action with regards to him. However as long as we are considering ArbComs, I'd strongly recommend that Charles should be made aware of this general restriction and advised not to attack and bait other editors.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 00:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I am continually annoyed with this blind bandwagon-style following around that is going on. The issue is that a group of editors is constantly trying to rile up individuals who do not agree with their POV regarding naming. Please note the covert manner in which Piotrus speaks to others. The reason why I have become annoyed with this goes way back to when an administrator was on the chopping block and he was given a chance and did not live up to his end. Forgive what may seem to be character assassination, but:, , (and all other things to which this admin has been subject). The attacking and baiting that Piotr speaks of is true character assassination. In my opinion, he does not seem to hold himself and those who agree with him to the same standards which he holds everyone else. I am normally not one to hold a grudge, but I am very weary of, and try to avoid, Piotrus because many editors have told me he would try to have those who disagree with him blocked, etc. I gave him the benefit of the doubt before and hate situations where my heart tells me to have faith in others, yet my experience says otherwise. I had a feeling that this would happen because numerous editors have cautioned me of some sort of group that operates with regards to these editors, who appear en masse at disputes, and that I would be baited and possibly "gotten rid of" or have an attempt of that made, if that could even happen. Evidently there is something about the behaviour of Piotrus and these editors which would cause people to say that.  Charles 00:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I will be more than happy to answer any and all questions regarding the differences which Piotrus has posted as I do feel I had plenty of reason to be frustrated even though I should not have acted out on it. While my actions might be questionable if viewed in a limited context, I feel that my views are wholly justified and I would be happy to explain them if necessary, since it seems this is tying into a bit of a larger dispute (which I would like to avoid, because I don't want to spend my holidays writing up ArbCom requests, etc). My main concern here is the accountability of the administrator to his parole. Have him answer to his actions and I will answer to mine. Charles 01:02, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Charles, why do you always accuse others of cabalism whenenver two or more editors disagree with you? Please consider that maybe it simply means you are in the wrong.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 01:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Where is this "always"? I don't "always accuse others of cabalism"; please substantiate that accusation. And no, Piotrus, please simply consider that you are wrong, or that every time someone disagrees with you and your behaviour it doesn't mean that they are automatically wrong. Charles 01:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I am no angel, this is not a secret but above Charles' complaint is a pure exaggeration. I never made a personal attack to him, never claimed ownership of the article and my comments are only slightly uncivil. I am shocked he implies I am anti-German, since I am the one who added hundreds of German names to Polish and Czech villages with strong German population in the past. I never claimed I created any featured article (in fact I haven't created any) and never claimed to Charles I am a good editor. He did so above ("but I'm pretty good"). As Piotrus pointed out, I suspect stalking and baiting, just see Talk:Duchy of Oświęcim and Charles' heated-up comments towards his opposers. It is not coincidential he made such edits to Duchy of Teschen article some two days after my Oppose vote in request for move of Duchy of Oświęcim article. Whole this complaint reminds me of one Czech proverb which could be translated as "Thief yells 'Catch the thief!'" - Darwinek (talk) 00:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * "I have expanded this article, clarified many things. You are the one destroying it and don't understanding the content. How much you have contributed to this article? How many featured and good articles did you created? Are you the administrator? How many edits have you made? Comparing these questions bring us closer to the answer which one of us is a good editor and who is not editor at all.". I was also involved in the RM article for the Duchy of Teschen before the Duchy of Auschwitz issue and knew of it before because of the articles on the Austria-Teschen line of the house of Habsburg. My edit history notes the royal articles on which I have worked. If I was an administrator and acted half as "bad", I would expect my powers to be taken away, but that's me. Charles 01:02, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Charles has engaged in several oneside and controversial moves(see talk at Duchy of Oświęcim). When faced with editors that have dissaproved of his action, his responce focused mainly on other editors traits and involved some accusations that could be regarded as very incivil. Further discussion often involved non-involved issues and remarks that didn't serve the quality of dialogue. It's realy strange for a person engaging in constant remarks about editors, involving controversial naming associated with Nazi concentration camp in history of medieval Poland to complain about incivility.--Molobo (talk) 01:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Molobo, What is your point? Dr. Dan (talk) 01:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This user (Molobo) was pushing the topic into the concentration camp. Note my repeated statements that we were talking about the duchy and not the concentration camp, which were ignored until the point where the concentration camp was discussed, upon which Molobo went to my previous argument of it not being about the camp! To quote an unsolicited but true email I received (I got a lot from casual observers of this, for some reason really, it was alarming): By now you should realize that this little clique ... will spin, and spin, and spin, any rational or logical argument until they are blue in the face. Totally to the detriment of Wikipedia. It's amazing how in one discussion, they use an argument to support a position favorable to their POV, only to object to the same argument when it doesn't suit them in the next debate. I had to laugh when Molobo chided you for your "attitude" and lack of "civility" ... back at work, making the encyclopedia "better", after being banned from Wikipedia for a year for his behavior.. If the viewing admins think this is inappropriate, I will remove it. Surely I am posting here at the risk of losing peace in my editing and I wouldn't reveal who sent it to me because the same would happen to them. Therefore if it is to be disregarded, I'll remove it, but it speaks to the discomfort other editors feel. Again, please note the group mentality when issuing character assassination. Charles 01:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Before this develops into another full blown wiki-dramu, I have a proposal to end this here and now: Darwinek will apologize to Charles for the comments that Charles feel are offensive (I see Darwinek has already tried to do so by refactoring his comments); Charles will apologize to Darwinek and other offended users for personal attacks such as his accusations of cabalism and refactor his posts accordingly, and we will be able to enjoy the rest of the holidays without visiting this board. What do you say? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 01:40, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I feel that everyone should be subject to the rules already laid out for them and for Darwinek that includes probation. I wish for this to stop, but I shouldn't think I have to avoid editing anything remotely Poland related to avoid being attacked, baited, insulted and played with. I do not seek further conflict; I seek enforcement of the applicable probation. Charles 01:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, it is either an apology or both Charles and Darwinek get a week off to enjoy the new year. Your choice. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * What? Both? It's Darwinek who is on parole, he is supposed to restrict himself in the first place, not to "refactor" and "apologize" after a deed is done once again.-- Matthead DisOuß   02:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I would like acknowledgement of the broader situation and everyone else at fault for these games before I make any decision. If all people can be held accountable then it is fair, since everyone else seems to be more than happy to add their two cents, like Molobo and Piotrus, both of whom make snide comments as anyone else has been accused of doing. I feel though that there is also the issue of an administrator being subject to probation, which should require further consideration. I would also like to know exactly what I am expected to apologize for and if I do, I would like an apology regarding the uneven weight given to my actions by others who are pointing fingers. If not, this certainly is not being conducted fairly. That's my honest opinion. Since others have made the Duchy of Auschwitz an issue here perhaps they too ought to be issuing apologies. Charles 01:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm shocked to learn that not only his civility parole is apparently not enforced, but that he has been resysopped. What going on here? At Templates_for_deletion/Log/2007_December_27, Darwinek has just put up a template created by me up for deletion He attacks the template:Sudetenland for containing, historically correct, the Nazi flag - I guess if I had omitted that, I would have been accused of denial. I've removed it anyway for now due to complaints. Also, he requests that due to the "behaviour of its creator it should be deleted" which is blatantly ad hominem - whats next, deleting articles only because they have been edited by one editor too many? Besides, he had created a similar template, under the bold title Template:Polish municipalities in the Czech Republic, based on "More than 10% of total population". Declaring a foreign place as Polish based on a minority there is quite preposterous. Also, at User Talk:Tulkolahten, they obviously discuss the template in a foreign language, rather than openly in English. And frankly, I'm more than tired of seeing always the same small bunch of Polish (Slavic) editors showing up together, supporting each other in attacking the messenger. It is Darwinek who is under scrutiny here, stop filibustering by attacking Charles. Ceterum censeo, Darwinek needs to be desysopped again for good, and his parole needs to be enforced. -- Matthead DisOuß   02:13, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You know very well that template you are talking about is only and only for disruption. There is nothing more to say ...  ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 11:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

<<< I can only say this. Blocks are preventative, not punitive. If all people involved cannot make peace and will continue throwing mud at each other, I would apply blocks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Jossi, do you feel that throwing mud at each other, is on the same level as violating a specific parole issued to a contributor. Just curious as to your objective opinion. Is there a difference? Dr. Dan (talk) 02:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * My opinion? There is a general restriction by the arbCom here and what it says is that Any editor working on topics related to Eastern Europe, broadly defined, may be made subject to an editing restriction at the discretion of any uninvolved administrator. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Good point, Jossi. If Darwinek would have been blocked earlier as his parole demands(!), this (and other things) would have been prevented. Enforcement of Darwinek's parole was requested by Charles here, and as Darwinek had recently attacked me and "my" template, I support this. Yet, how come that Piotrus and Molobo seem to be "throwing mud" (civil wording?) here, are they directly involved with Darwinek's parole, are they Darwinek lawyers, did I miss something? If they have a problem with Charles, "ANI/AE" is not the place to discuss it, yet. But as it seems to be acceptable here: frankly, I'd like to see Piotrus, Darwinek, Molobo and some others put on parole to stop minding in each others business in "One for all, and all for one" style as if they were Siamese twins. Yet, I'm not in the mood to start a RfC, RfAr, Wikipedia:Sock puppetry update request or whatever bureaucratic procedure is needed for that, I rather edit articles than lawsuits. -- Matthead DisOuß   03:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * In looking at your edit history, I would argue that you need to be placed under the same restrictions specified at Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Is the administrator Darwinek not accountable to his probation, also considering he had to be desysoped first? The above comment does not address Matthead's comment and also you did not clearly answer Dr. Dan. Without trying to provoke, I'm just saying... Charles 03:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I hope civility will be respected, but I have doubts about Matthead being a neutral party in this case as he made remarks that could be seen as controversial(i.e scholar). As for my part I apologize if anybody was offended by remarks, and hold no ill feelings towards anybody. As always I am looking forward to positive and contstructive discussions that will allow us to expand and improve Wikipedia's content.--Molobo (talk) 03:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

This whole witch-hunt is getting digusting and it seems to me its only purpose is to disqualify the adversary. Stalking and baiting continues by the same editors who hunt witches here, just see: Talk:Cieszyn Silesia and Talk:Euroregion Cieszyn Silesia, which were unsurprisingly "invaded" by these users just "about time". However, I say "sorry" to Charles if my comments hurted him and he feel I overreacted. I await his "sorry", too. - Darwinek (talk) 07:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You are an administrator and you are on parole. That's all I have to say about that. As for stalking? Oh, please. How did Piotrus get here? Also, I have WP:RM in my watchlist. I have had it in there for almost two years. If you want to talk about invasions, we could always talk about that cabal that everyone seems to think exists. I do not accept "sorries". I do not feign apologies because that is disgusting to do so and then claim that others have been uncivil. If you want to talk about baiting as well, look at every single "Polish" naming issue that has ever been on Wikipedia and then tell me about baiting. I absolutely respect Polish spelling and the like, but this is not Polish Wikipedia. Like I said, you're an administrator and you have nothing to say for your actions. It's all about how everyone else "misunderstands" you. Unreal! Charles 08:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I offered you a friendly hand and you slapped it. Very friendly attitude, indeed. I suggest every noninvolved user who came here to read whole above discussion and make his own judgement. - Darwinek (talk) 09:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry and "sorry" really are not the same thing, and it isn't an apology when evidentially the blame for the situation on my talk page is being solely placed on me, especially when preceded by accusations of disgusting behaviour, a witch hunt, stalking and baiting. Again, read the article Non-apology apology. Apologize for your actions, not for mine. Charles 09:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't know quotation marks are so important to you. Then - sorry. I still await your apologize. - Darwinek (talk) 09:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I have notified the administrators who were participants in the ArbCom from which Darwinek's probation came of this discussion. I feel that they should be able to weigh in on the matter and add their two cents. Charles 08:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * With all the respect, this seems to be a content-dispute but not the case for ArbCom. There were no actions abusing administrator privileges or any supporting them.  ≈Tulkolahten≈ ≈talk≈ 11:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Well I put this situation as follows, person in question user:Darwinek during his ArbCom case was desysoped and due to systematical wrong doings towards his opponents was placed on parole. He also promised to behave, however as his logs of blocks and bans shows he was blocked again and for incivility and again the block was lifted due to promise to properly behave (!). As new evidences shows the same old problems continues despite repeated promises to desist such practice. Actually I believe that his practice to describe opponents as trolls should end at once, as well as empty promises. This situation should be solved now as history shows the same problems will continue in th future. M.K. (talk) 16:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I am closing this discussion, all editors involved are encouraged to drop the profuse exhibitions of bad faith, and find ways to collaborate without baiting, flaming, and escalating these personal disputes any further. If these continue, there will be no other option than a new ArbCom case, that will bring the community's scrutinity to all these involved. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Request for Clarification for User:Ferrylodge
In Requests for arbitration/Ferrylodge, the following decision was made by the Arbitration committee:

2.1)  is subject to an editing restriction indefinitely. Any uninvolved administrator may ban Ferrylodge from any article which relates to pregnancy or abortion, interpreted broadly, which they disrupt by inappropriate editing.
 * ''Passed 6 to 1 at 23:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

If I might interpret broadly, Ferrylodge is violating this agreement on the article Fetus, which definitely relates to pregnancy and abortion. Here are some of the most abusive edits:


 * Adding in POV images. These images are not medically oriented, and are used by Pro-Lifers to show the fetus as something more than a collection of cells.  (Note well, of all of my edits, you will find no indication of my POV on abortion, since I keep my viewpoint very private.)
 * POV edit
 * POV edit
 * 3RR warning for Fetus
 * POV-pushing

He should be blocked again. Orange Marlin Talk• Contributions 18:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I see a pretty basic discussion about the inclusion of images that is progressing in the correct manner. Yes, the edit war would have best been avoided but I wouldn't class this as "disrupt[ion] by inappropriate editing" and therefore wouldn't agree with a block.  violet/riga (t) 18:42, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Go with the wording, "interpreted broadly". He was disruptive even without interpretation.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 18:56, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The "interpreted broadly" clause refers to whether an article "relates to pregnancy or abortion", not to the disruption. violet/riga (t) 20:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Valid point, but it doesn't mean he should get away with disruptions of articles.  Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 20:08, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The onus is on the editor seeking to include disputed content, to achieve consensus for its inclusion. Ferrylodge, who has an extremely strong POV, long-standing issues with POV-pushing and edit-warring, is aggressively pushing for disputed content that supports his POV.  I would say this is pretty unambiguous.  Guy (Help!) 20:56, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Guy, if I may ask: where was I pushing to "include disputed content"? I thought I was seeking to restore longstanding content that was removed without consensus, and which has since been restored by another editor.  As far as I know, I was not seeking to include any new content at all.Ferrylodge (talk) 23:31, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * In the diffs cited you were edit-warring over disputed content. You are not allowed to do that, per the arbitration restriction.  Guy (Help!) 23:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * As I said, the images have been in the article for many months. Since when is the "onus" on an editor who is seeking to restore stable, well-sourced, longstanding content that was removed without discussion or consensus?Ferrylodge (talk) 23:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * has a history of POV pushing of her own, for example see and is virtually a SPA on feminist topics.  I see no reason why Alice should be able to remove those images with an entirely spurious reason (These images are not medically oriented, and are used by Pro-Lifers to show the fetus as something more than a collection of cells.) but FL should be restricted from replacing images which had sat comfortably in the article for 4 months. Thatcher 23:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, I agreed with IronAgeAlice. I said, "If these drawings are not medically accurate then they should be removed."  But she produced no evidence of inaccuracy at all.Ferrylodge (talk) 23:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I was the one who restored the images to the article. I don't know a whole lot about the background on this Ferrylodge business, but the images at the Fetus article were medically accurate. I checked with other medical sites and with sonograms to make sure. When I found that they were conclusively accurate and brought a greater dimension to the article, I restored them. Like Ferrylodge stated these pictures were in the article for months, and were deleted by an editor that I warned for repeated POV edits and vandalism. If you take a look at this list of edits made by IronAngelAlice you will see a consistent pattern. I don't throw the vandal and POV warning out a lot. I work hard to develop consensus in my contributions. I am currently doing so on another page. In this instance, I don't see destructive POV from Ferrylodge as it relates to those images. The images were not from an anti-abortion site, nor were they placed there to invoke anti-abortion sentiments. Instead, they help illustrate the development of a Fetus. My biology textbook from college had very similar drawings and photographs. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 04:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57


 * I have a problem with the characterization of FerryLodge's conduct as disruptive. A lot of that depends on context and on the point of view of the other editors.  Taking a look at the cited examples:
 * characterized as "These images are not medically oriented, and are used by Pro-Lifers to show the fetus as something more than a collection of cells." This comment strikes me as odd.  Isn't it essentially correct that the embryo is defined as a fetus when it has developed to a certain point? (NIH Web site)  These drawings do not come from a partisan pro-life web site but from a commercial site for expectant mothers that seels advertising.  (As such, the links should perhaps be removed, however).  Is there a question about there accuracy, and in that case, has anyone tried to find images from medical or scientific sources?  The rationale for complaining about these images seems extremely suspect, and the idea that an article on fetus will describe but not illustrate the stages of fetal development seems to be an extreme point of view of its own.
 * Described as a POV edit; without a citation it appears to be original research (a conclusion drawn from other facts) but it appears a statement reasonably founded in the text of the article itself (NIH web site). As a conclusion, it should be sourced to reliable non-partisan source (medical textbook, etc) but calling it a "POV edit" only applies I think if you have a very different POV.
 * Another "POV" edit Again, why is it POV to cite factual information about the various stages of fetal development?  It would be better to cite the relevant mainstream medical literature, and not a controversial figure such as Peter Singer, but if the relevant medical literature supports this statement, why not include it in  a list of fetal milestones?
 * Regarding this edit, also labeled "POV pushing", talk page discussion by partisans on both sides of an issue is part of the process of arriving at NPOV middle ground and consensus. Talk page disruption is behavior that prevents other editors from working together; that does not seem to be the case here, and the point FL raised (abortion is a procedure performed on a mother and a fetus) seems as least reasonable to raise for discussion.
 * With respect to Guy, FerryLodge may be aggressively seeking to include disputed content (the brainstem activity, drawings of different stages of fetal development) to serve an agenda, but it seems to me that aggressively seeking to remove such content serves the opposite agenda, and if one is not to be tolerated than neither is the other. Again, I can not see how the article on fetus can not have drawings of different stages of development (assuming they are accurate) and I do not understand why is is not objectionable to state "At nine weeks, the fetus is able to bend fingers around an object; in response to a touch on the foot, the fetus will bend the legs or curl the toes to move away from the object." but it is objectionable to state "Brain stem activity has been detected as early as 54 days after conception."
 * Regarding the enforcement request, I do not see sufficient evidence of disruptive behavior to emplace an article ban at this time. Thatcher 23:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Any uninvolved administrator may ban Ferrylodge from any article which relates to pregnancy or abortion, interpreted broadly, which they disrupt by inappropriate editing. Sounds like it says he may be banned from an article, which discussion should be held here. It says nothing about blocking. The Evil Spartan (talk) 23:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Blocking is used to enforce article bans. The specific enforcement clause seems to have been left out of this case, but that is the usual practice and there is no reason to ignore it here on a technicality. Thatcher 23:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It is not a technicality. Should we agree that this is necessary, we say "Ferrylodge, stop editing the article". Simple as that. Of course, blocks are used to enforce bans; but no ban is put in place. The Evil Spartan (talk) 23:58, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You should read up on some other Arbitration cases. In many many cases, admins are authorized to place discretionary topic bans. Violation of such bans are enforced by blocking. In this case, FL may be banned from any abortion-related article he disrupts by any uninvolved administrator, for a set period of time or indefinitely. If a ban is posted to his talk page and logged appropriately, and he then continues to edit in violation of the ban, he may be blocked. Usually, the blocking language says something like "Should any user subject to an editing restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be briefly blocked, up to a week in the event of repeated violations. After 5 blocks, the maximum block shall increase to one year." In this case, Arbcom neglected to pass such an enforcement clause, but I would have no hesitation in issuing blocks if necessary, because otherwise the ban is meaningless. At this time, no article bans have been imposed, see Requests_for_arbitration/Ferrylodge. Thatcher 00:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thatcher, I'm sorry to bother you with this on Xmas, but are you saying that I will be completely banned from Wikipedia if it is decided that I should be banned from a particular article related to abortion or pregnancy? My impression was that I would simply stop editing that particular article, rather than being completely banned from Wikipedia.  I was unblocked for the entire, miserable ArbCom proceeding in my case, and yet I did not edit a single article, because I was instructed not to do so.  If I'm authoritatively ordered in the future to not edit a particular article, then of course I wouldn't edit that article, even if I think the order is rubbish.Ferrylodge (talk) 00:24, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * No, see above. Thatcher 00:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thx. Incidentally, I stumbled on this discussion by accident.  Isn't there some rule or custom that the subject of the discussion ought to be made aware of it?Ferrylodge (talk) 00:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * When the original complaint was made at WP:RFAR, you should have been notified of the discussion, ideally by the complaintant. I later moved it here, and by the time I had finished looking it over you had responded.  For any editor named in an Arbitration remedy, this is probably a page you should watchlist. Thatcher 01:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thatcher, I don't disagree in respect of content, but in respect of Ferrylodge, it is clearly the case that a militant promoter of an agenda, under an arbitration restriction, is absolutely the wrong person to be fighting that particular battle. He needs to take it to talk, not edit war.  That is, to my reading, the whole point.  Guy (Help!) 00:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Guy, if you're going to characterize me as a "militant promoter of an agenda" then I would appreciate if you would cite a diff, preferably a recent one. I deny it.  Restoring longstanding, sourced images of a fetus in an article titled "fetus" is militant promotion of an agenda?  Come on.  That was not the least bit "inappropriate" on my part.Ferrylodge (talk) 00:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, guys. I have a proposal. It is not radical, it makes sense, I would hope that people would be willing to abide by it. I worry, however, that people will be more interested in simply blocking Ferrylodge than agreeing to a solution. Ferrylodge is limited to one revert per day at Fetus for a period of 12 months. Ferrylodge may not make any more reverts on Fetus for a period of one week from now. Any admin who wishes to enforce this may. Unfortunately, as I said, I worry people will not think this is enough. The Evil Spartan (talk) 00:38, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Frankly, I'd rather just be banned from the article. I did nothing wrong there.  I restored material that had been there for many months and that was properly sourced.  I didn't violate 3RR.  I tried to engage in discussion at the talk page.  After I was unsuccessful at restoring the images, I let it go, rather than be disruptive.  Another user restored the images, not me.Ferrylodge (talk) 00:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Understandably. You made some changes and let it go, and the same people whose own views are as extreme as your own on the opposite end of the spectrum are hounding to see you blocked. So is it official then? Would an admin just pronounce the words "Ferrylodge is banned from the article fetus for a period of (6 months|1 year|indefinitely)" so we can close this thread and get it over with? —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Evil Spartan (talk • contribs) 00:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thatcher and Violetriga already indicated above that I have done nothing to warrant a ban here. Why do you disagree, Evil Spartan?  All of the stuff I did at fetus recently was restoring longstanding, well-sourced material that was being deleted without consensus.Ferrylodge (talk) 00:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point. This was not at all "disrupt[ion] by inappropriate editing", as arbcom said must happen. It is simply one user's frustration that Ferrylodge is editing the same article as himself. Restoring content is not disruptive, except to people who want to see it removed in the first place. The Evil Spartan (talk) 01:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * In response to both Guy and Evil Spartan, yes there will likely be problems whenever FerryLodge gets involved in situations like this. It would be better for FerryLodge to find someone who does not carry the same baggage to deal with situations such as the removal of the fetus illustrations, either be contacting a friend or through a content RFC or request for third opinion.  However, that was not required by the decision.  It would be a good idea for FerryLodge to observe a voluntary 1 revert limit on all the articles he edits, and look for assistance if more than one revert is needed to deal with the dispute.  However, that was also not mandated.  What is left is that FerryLodge is free to edit until an uninvolved admin decides he has been disruptive and lodges an article ban.  Bear in mind that admins have different standards of "disruption", so it would be an excellent defense to be able to point out that one had observed a voluntary 1RR limit and it was the other editor who was disruptive. Thatcher 01:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thatcher, are you volunteering as "someone who does not carry the same baggage"? :-)
 * No. Thatcher 01:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Believe me, I would like nothing better than to dump these contentious situations in someone else's lap. The main obstacle, I suppose, is the Wikipedia policy against canvassing; I'm not supposed to go looking for people to back me up, right?  I certainly would not be inclined to do a voluntary 1RR on articles that are not even pertinent to my ArbCom restriction.  Regarding articles that are pertinent to the ArbCom restriction, I'm kind of ambivalent.  This particular thread, for example, seems kind of frivolous, and yet there does not seem to be any penalty or other drawback for people who seek to bring frivolous complaints against me.  If there were such a penalty or drawback, then I doubt there would be any reason for us to even be talking about a voluntary 1RR.Ferrylodge (talk) 01:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * There is a difference (sometimes subtle) between asking people for help and canvassing. Thatcher 01:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Your bold font is noted. I don't want to create another mess here, that leads to people accusing me of disruptive and inapproriate canvassing.  As you say, the distinction between canvassing and asking for help is sometimes subtle.  In contrast, there is no subtlety about the propriety of restoring longstanding and well-sourced material that has been deleted without consensus, and yet look at the hot water I'm in right now.  Sheesh.  Does every frivolous complaint against me have to result in some "compromise" that further whittles away what I can do at Wikipedia?  I'd be glad to make some good-faith inquiries regarding "someone who does not carry the same baggage" as I do, but I do not expect the inquiries to be met with any enthusiasm, given the spectre of canvassing.  Isn't it enough that you can permanently ban me from any abortion/pregnancy article if I violate 3RR, and even if I don't violate 3RR but edit in an inappropriately disruptive way?Ferrylodge (talk) 01:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The bold font was merely a personal expression. I strongly dislike editing articles that are targets of partisan bickering on any side.  As to your situation, it is one that many editors find themselves in after Arbitration.  Some do well enough that they are able to successfully petition for early release, so to speak.  Others do not.  The Arbitration case is intended to put a damper on your previous behavior, but not to make you a target for baseless complaints.  Ultimately how you edit and how you respond to these situations is up to you.  Eventually, stronger action could be taken against a serial bad faith complaintant, but it is much too early for that here. Thatcher 02:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I hope to continue Wikipeding appropriately, and the prospect of early release is certainly an incentive. I'm sorry if using all the tools legitimately available to me results in more complaints against me.  Even if I never reverted anyone, I'm sure the complaints would continue. (Believe it or not, I too don't much like editing articles that are targets of partisan bickering.)  ANYhow, Happy Holidays and New Year.  :-)Ferrylodge (talk) 02:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thatcher, I absolutely agree. A voluntary 1RR restriction would be a big step forward, and Ferrylodge should recognise that simply by being the person making the edit he is going to cause a certain amount of friction at the moment, so if the edit is as uncontentious as he clearly believes it to be then he really should take it to talk where I am sure it will achieve consensus one way or the other almost immediately, given the number of interested editors, thus removing the problem. Guy (Help!) 11:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not quite sure why Ferrylodge should have to limit himself to 1RR after doing nothing wrong for common sense reverts simply because a user who is even more POV-pushy and uncivil than he makes a report in order to get a one-up in an edit dispute. I'm not sure we shouldn't just shut the thread and ask OrangeMarlin to stop asking for a block every time Ferrylodge has the chutzpah to undo one of his edits. The Evil Spartan (talk) 11:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Right. Ferrylodge is on probation.  Not me.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 17:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, a little more here. I know you're capable of reading, so maybe you should take a look at the ArbCom conversation about Ferrylodge.  Or how about his nice little RfC about Bishonen which got the support of one person, and the antagonism of probably 50 other editors, although we did enjoy the food commentary.  Or how bout the 20 people wrote against him.  And as for your personal attack, thanks.  I always like saving personal attacks for future reference when necessary.  You see, I use the system to stop POV-warriors.  Oh, BTW, Ferrylodge, being a christian pov-pusher, would never have Chutzpah.  I, being a good Jew, get to use that word.  No more anti-semitism from you.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 17:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * OrangeMarlin, your accusations of anti-semitism against Evil Spartan are completely baseless, but nevertheless are typical fare for you. Moreover, I am not a Christian, and I am not pro-life.  Of course, I'll probably be thrown in solitary confinement for daring to correct you.Ferrylodge (talk) 17:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * He doesn't have to. However, multiple reverting is not an accepted method of editing (see bold, revert, discuss), and a voluntary 1RR would make it less likely that FerryLodge would get caught up in future enforcement action. Thatcher 15:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly. It's a prudent piece of self-discipline for an editor under a restriction of this sort. Guy (Help!) 15:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So, if IronAngelAlice reverts longstanding, well-sourced content against consensus, and refuses to provide any plausible explanation, then you are suggesting that I not revert more than once, and when she reverts me back, I should do nothing. I do not have time to go through infinite dispute resolution procedures.  Can't anyone say, "Thank you Ferrylodge, for restoring longstanding sourced content that was reverted without consensus by an editor who refused to provide a plausible explanation?"  I was standing up to a bully here, without violating any Wikipedia policies.Ferrylodge (talk) 16:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, IronAngelAlice hasn't been put on probation for edit-warring, personal attacks, and whatever else you've done (including attacking admins like Bishonen). So I guess you're going to have to live with your dirty deeds.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 17:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * IronAngelAlice does have a note on his/her user page that notes that the account is a sockpuppet and that the user has used one or more accounts abusively. Doesn't that count for something? Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 17:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57
 * Then haver the user blocked. My point was that IAA is not the subject of this enforcement, only Ferrylodge.  So no, it has no value.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 19:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a frivolous request, OrangeMarlin.Ferrylodge (talk) 19:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So there we go, we're in agreement. But you on the other hand, should be blocked.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 19:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Could someone point to diffs showing where FL violated even a 1RR much less came close to a 3RR? I've looked through the revision history of Fetus in the last month. I see a total of 5 edits (single edits or a consecutive group of edits) by FL. The first was to restore images that (by all accounts) had long been part of the article. Then he restored a sentence while adding a reference. He restored a completely different sentence that was already sourced. He inserted a comment in a different place. And finally he added a ref and fixed a missing ref in yet a different paragraph. Sorry, I just don't see the beef. Sbowers3 (talk) 00:54, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Could someone point to diffs showing where FL violated even a 1RR
 * I see a total of 5 edits...the first was to restore images..."Restore" = "revert"...Then he restored a sentence...Two reverts, by your own admission...He restored a completely different sentence...The 3RR applies to any three reverts. You have documented three reverts.  That's a lot of edit warring for someone who is under arbcomm restriction.  Guettarda (talk) 06:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * "I see" said the blind man (to his deaf wife). What I saw was single reverts in totally different areas. I (mis)understood that 3RR was reverting the same material more than three times. In most WP:AN3RR complaints this is what I see - as many as eight reverts to the identical material. I did not realize that 3RR meant any three reverts in the same article even if in different places. If I (a moderately experienced editor) made that mistake then probably other editors also misunderstand the policy. Sbowers3 (talk) 15:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Please note: under any definition, I did not violate 3RR here.Ferrylodge (talk) 17:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Three reverts is a limit, not an entitlement, and wikilawyering about the exact number of reverts or the period is, and always has been, right out - whoever you are. You are under a restriction for tendentious editing, you are editing a subject on which you have a very strong POV, you are up against people who are seriously pissed off with you, and if you don't have the good sense to recognise good advice when it's offered by neutral parties such as Thatcher then there's probably not much hope for you.  If, on the other hand, you can take a deep breath, accept that the world will not actually stop turning if your POV is slightly less than 100% represented for a few hours, and take it to talk in a civil and dignified manner, you will leave your opponents with no sticks with which to beat you.  The choice is yours.  Guy (Help!) 21:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Look the point here is that FL is showing bad judgement. If I was on probation for editing, say, alien abduction articles in a contentious way and getting into huge fights and driving off other editors and all kinds of other trouble, then I think I would stay away from those articles. I do not care if it is 1RR. I do not care if it is 0RR. It is a very very bad idea for FL to show himself around those articles. It is likely to lead to trouble. And I personally am unfit to judge whether those images constitute disruptive editing or not; I would rely on someone who is a longstanding editor of those articles and consensus. But even if they are not WP:DE, it is a bad bad idea. And it really smells bad from here. It looks like the camel's nose under the tent.--Filll (talk) 05:52, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * FYI, I started a thread at ANI an hour or so ago, regarding OrangeMarlin.Ferrylodge (talk) 06:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * FYI, the Fetus article has been fully protected by an admin, and the admin explained here.Ferrylodge (talk) 07:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Request for Clarification for User:John Gohde
This user, who was known as User:Mr-Natural-Health was subject to this arbitration ruling. Although that ruling is old (2004), it has relevance to his current behavior at Complementary and alternative medicine and Talk:Complementary and alternative medicine. Here are some specific behavior issues:
 * Identifying edit by a long-time editor as vandalism
 * Implying an editor is a liar
 * Rude edit summary
 * Major reversion against NPOV
 * Personal attack #1
 * Nominating an article for GA that has significant issues with NPOV
 * Identifying pseudoscience as nonsense
 * False accusation of personal attack and intentional misrepresentation of comments
 * Personal attack #2
 * Personal attack #3
 * Personal attack #4

OK, I could go on, and this is a holiday, so I'd rather not be spending hours finding everything just to make a point. What are our choices? Orange Marlin Talk• Contributions 17:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It appears that the remedies in the earlier arbitration case expired three years ago (although it may still be relevant as background). Therefore, any problems with this editor should be pursued through usual dispute resolution methods, culminating if necessary in a new request for arbitration. You can also take the situation to WP:ANI if you believe there is an issue warranting administrator attention. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:20, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I assume that you know more about the process than I. However, several admins, in private discussions with them, recommended this route, since the ruling does not go "sour" after a certain amount of time.  Gohde/Mr. Natural Health, being one in the same person, is returning to their old ways.  Does that not mean something?  And so we're supposed to waste the community's time in going through the whole long process of ANI, RfC, RfArb, etc. etc. etc.  Meanwhile, this vile editor continues along his merry way, screwing up the project.  I personally don't get it.  We spend more time protecting POV warriors than building the project.  People like this game the system, using pseudo-legal methods to stay their executions.  It's making me less and less and less and less civil about these types of editors.  But thanks for your opinion.  I know you mean well, but the bureaucracy of this project is no fun.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 19:27, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, this was one of the first (if not the very first) arbitration cases ever. Most arbitration remedies nowadays are more open-ended. Leaving this here for other thoughts and comments. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That's telling. Gohde was involved with the very first ruling.  It figures.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 19:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

An additional issue is whether John Gohde is even allowed to edit at all at the present time. A condition for him to return may remain unfulfilled, IOW he shouldn't have been unbanned in the first place and should be rebanned.

A condition of his ArbCom was this:


 * 4.1) User:John Gohde must read and acknowledge he has read Ownership of articles and No personal attacks and write 200 words each on the implications of having custodians on Wikipedia and on the implications of allowing personal attacks on Wikipedia before being allowed to edit Wikipedia again.

I have politely requested that he provide proof for fulfillment of this condition, but he has refused and deleted my request. This is not a good faith action, and definitely not collaborative.

Unless he provides proof of fulfillment, he should immediately be returned to limbo. --  Fyslee  /  talk  19:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a second case that I was not aware of when I wrote my comments above (it is not cited in the original comment from OrangeMarlin). Based on the second case, the "personal attack parole" remains in place at this time. Any alleged violations should be reported to Arbitration enforcement. On the other hand, speaking solely for myself, I don't think I would have much of an appetite for enforcing a "write 200 words" type of remedy if I were the administrator at AE. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:51, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I wish it were easier to find these things. Thank you Fyslee for bringing up the next RfAr.  Are there more?   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 20:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Requests for arbitration/Completed requests should be a list of all the cases ever decided, and one can do a search for the name of an editor. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:40, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is his block log. Finding things on him isn't always easy since he constantly engages in revisionism of his editing, and his user page contains hidden comments for his own use. This revisionism even includes improperly changing his article talk page edits, personal attacks, demands, and ownership comments. He simply changes them and thus makes others users' replies seem improper. Instead he should strike them and add a comment so there is no question about what has happened, who did it, and when. Now that he has again been getting in hot water he has begun deleting incriminating and aggressive comments (one example) he has made.

Rely to RfC by User:John Gohde
I have had almost no edit contact with User:Orangemarlin. So, I am at a total lost as to what motivated Orangemarlin to revert two of my edits and file this request for a clarafication on Christmas day(which I celebrate). I suspect it has something to do with his partisian point of view on CAM. But, I can point out several instances of a behavior issue with this editor: -- John Gohde (talk) 21:42, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) 12:03, 25 December 2007--Said he was reverting and reporting to ArbCom this prefectly valid, uncontested edit becuase of a 2004 ruling. Why?
 * 2) 11:43, 25 December 2007-Said he was reverting and reporting to ArbCom this prefectly valid, uncontested edit becuase of a 2004 ruling. Why?
 * 3) 18:02, 15 December 2007--Personal Attack, Goading, and bashing CAM with a fringe and dated position.


 * Response Edit warring and incivility at Complementary and alternative medicine.    Technically, even if the one-year attack parole at Requests for arbitration/John Gohde  only took effect after the one year ban expired, the parole expired on 30 April 2007.  And John only has one recent block.  However, as a matter of common sense, if an editor is sanctioned for poor behavior twice and continues, taking new action should not require clearing an impossibly high bar.  Blocked for 48 hours and recommend filing a new Request for Arbitration if the behavior continues. Thatcher 22:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent action. Hopefully, he gets the point, but I don't believe that will happen.  I'm preparing the RfAr as we speak.  Let me respond to the above attack on me, just in case someone actually reads this in the future.  I watch numerous Alternative Medicine articles, so I would invariably run across Gohde.  I asked for clarification on christmas, since it's a non-holiday to Jews like myself.  But what is completely laughable is his accusation of a personal attack on the third diff above.  He asked for why I wanted the tags, and I stated so.  Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 23:11, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I was asked to review this request. He has been using "vandalism" in reference to good faith edits, together with numerous personal attacks etc. I'm afraid John has shown no insight into his block, compares it to being raped and receiving lashes, and is repeating much of his behaviour from 2004 that got him a ban. His main bête noire from that time (RK) has left Wikipedia, but in the few weeks John has been back he's managed to make a whole string of enemies. I have not engaged with him at all, but I am merely observing that a 48-hour block may not reform this editor into healthy editing. JFW | T@lk  07:47, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * If anyone wants to find good examples of John Gohde's personal attacks and other parole violations, just use the links he posts as examples of personal attacks by other users. They inevitably show that he is the attacking party. His own talk page's history makes an interesting study in the deletion of warnings and good advice, even ridiculing admins when they warn him. This is entirely consistent with his stated opinion of admins as "mentally ill individual[s]" : "The only picture that I get of an Admin at Wikipedia is that of a mentally ill individual. In my humble opinion, you cannot have a rational conversation or any kind of a rational exchange of ideas with the mentally ill."


 * Anyone who is in doubt about his purpose here can read his website description of Wikipedia here: "Try to promote any subject matter on Wikipedia and you will quickly get the attention of at least one of these mentally ill admins. I promoted Alternative Medicine all too well." "I actually accomplished what I had originally intended to do at Wikipedia, on day one, before I even set up a user name. But, I was so quickly attacked by hordes of Wikipedians so bent on destroying what I had edited that I decided to stick around a whole lot longer. One thing lead to another, and I ended up promoting alternative medicine in general." He isn't here to write in an NPOV manner, but to "promote alternative medicine." Advocacy is forbidden here. It's rather odd that he accuses others of being "partisan", when he himself is probably one of the most "partisan" editors at Wikipedia and repeatedly reveals ownership sentiments as part of his attacks on other editors. Needless to say an awful lot of diffs will be forthcoming if this ends up in an ArbCom.


 * Speaking of an ArbCom, I believe it is unnecessary in this case as there are enough issues already on the table to justify a community ban. An ArbCom will only provide him with an even larger soapbox and will defeat the purpose of dispute resolution, which is to avoid disruption of Wikipedia. If this were a doubtful situation, then an ArbCom would be in order, but it's not doubtful at all. It would be an enormous disruption of Wikipedia and waste of time to go there. Please just be courageous, act on the evidence, and end this miserable situation in an expeditious manner, IOW short and quick. No one but those who deserve a similar fate will complain. --  Fyslee  /  talk  08:39, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, comparing himself to a woman who was raped and received lashes is just disgusting. This editor needs to be banned permanently along with his numerous socks.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 17:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Speaking as one of the few (I am guessing) admins who is actually provably mentally ill, at least in as much as depression is classifiable as such, I believe that John Gohde has by now painted himself so far into the corner that there is no hope for him. His edits, his comments and his website all make it pretty clear that he is one of those individuals for whom The Truth&trade; is of paramount importance, and anything that stands in the way of The Truth&trade; is necessarily evil.  Sadly, The Truth&trade; in this case equates to a minority point of view, which makes the tension between Gohde and Wikipedia essentially unfixable. Whether he is blocked, banned or sent to ArbCom, I think the outcome will probably be the same. ArbCom would have the merit of probably only banning him from one topic area, but that does seem to be the only area in which he's interested. Guy (Help!) 12:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * As someone who was brought to this article and user page accidentally by an editor asking me if I used CAM, I had to find out what it meant first. I asked another editor and got responses by a few editors and links to the article  and to the talk page .  I found that the talk page was totally uncivil and that user [[User_talk:John_Gohde] was telling editors not to listen to other editors and bringing up unnecessary cases that did nothing useful except to inflame situations going on.  Reverts seem to be aimed at editors that were trying for balance with notations that the editor being reverted either was a vandal or worse. I have only watched what is going on the past week or so and I have not edited at these sites at all.  When I came across this I asked why this kind of page was allowed as it was a list that appeared to be set up for attacks of a few editors.  For the record, this last notes page was recently deleted by its owner.  I find that this article in general is just a repeat of current articles just trying to get a point a view from the alternate side and not a balanced view in total. I also questioned why the whole article wasn't set up for a speedy delete.  Deleting this article I think would help prevent the smoldering of sides that this article is receiving.  Of course this is just my opinion as an outside view of things.  I think this editor needs to be polite and let all sides post without feeling intimidated.  I also think this article should be considered for a speedy delete.  This of course is just how I saw things.  I could post diffs but I think there is enough posted above to show the problems that are stated.  --[[User:Crohnie| Crohnie Gal ]] Talk  15:56, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * His first contribution to a talk page after his block was over appears to be an admission of ignorance over what proper editing is all about. . Seems like he's just asking for an indefinite block. --Ronz (talk) 19:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * His second contribution to a talk page after his latest block is harassment --Ronz (talk) 19:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * To Guy: I wonder if the DSM-IV has an entry on Wikipedia administrators? Anyway, as per Newyorkbrad, this may not be where this case is ultimately decided, but I'd like to voice my opnion in the meantime as well. I've been watching User:John Gohde on and off myself for a few weeks (and also remember him from 3 years ago) and have left several civility warnings on his talk page. Those warnings were removed by him without response and then a line was put at the top of his talk page saying that he would "delete" any edits he found insulting or threatening. All through his interactions with other editors on Wikipedia he tends to question the people whom he disagrees with about their personal motives rather than the technical nature of their complaints, viz the tendentious questioning of User:Orangemarlin on this page. Those sorts of ad hominems, and a stated pro alt med agenda, lead to problematic interaction, especially when dealing with his opposite number(s) from the sceptical side. I am glad he is coming (again) to community attention, and I support vigorous sanctions if other admins agree. --Bradeos Graphon (talk) 22:07, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * See. I would call this the 2nd so-called warning on my talk page.  Not only had I already changed my behavior way before your comment, you posted nothing to respond to. Compare your comments with this Adm who actually gave me something to respond to.  Your comments are way off base. You comments are yet more complaining about something that I had already stopped doing long ago. -- John Gohde (talk) 02:18, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Since I said specifically that I was warning you, the issue of what you choose call my warnings is moot. You didn't reply to the warnings at all, you simply removed them from your talk page without discussion. You didn't send me a message at any point. You have the right to do that, and I have the right to consider those removals without comment a sign of dismissal on your part. I also have the right to an opinion, and I also have the responsibility to protect the greater Wikipedia public from abusive editors. I'm not commenting on your content disputes, my warnings and my opinions here are comments on your behaviour. It is your opinion that you have changed your behaviour, mine is otherwise, as exemplified by your gloating in a talkpage section headline (Ha, .. Hah, Ha!) when you thought someone had been digging up dirt on another editor with whom you were in dispute. I'm not concerned about your content issues, I don't give a fig about alt med or pseudoscience or Quackwatch. I don't want to block you, I don't want you to go away. I think you can make valuable contributions to Wikipedia. The dismissiveness and the tone you deliver it with has to stop, however, or you will eventually be blocked permanently. I invite you to change my opinion. --Bradeos Graphon (talk) 03:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Nothing about about your comment indicated that a reply was needed. Like I just wrote, your comment came after I had already corrected my behavior. So, I fail to see what there was to reply to. As far as I am concerned, during my 3rd stay at Wikipedia I did not participate at any time in an edit war.  Okay, I managed to do 3 reverts in one day, but nothing about that indicated an edit war to me. I am perfectly happy with the current state of affairs at Wikipedia.  I am happy with the current state of all the articles that I have edited. Things could hardly be better as far as the state of Complementary and Alternative Medicine articles go on Wikipedia.  What everybody is constantly complaining about is totally beyond me. No edit wars are currently going on.  I did no reverts today.  I did not do very much editing either because everything has been pretty much successfully completed.  And, so it goes.  My job on my 3rd stay at Wikipedia has been successfully completed.  Have a nice day. -- John Gohde (talk) 03:49, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Rely to RfC by User:John Gohde-Amendments
I find it totally incongruous that Orangemarlin knows the differences between being "cautioned" versus "put on probation" for RfCs, but did not know that the remedies in the earlier 2004 arbitration case had expired some three years ago.

Orangemarlin reverted two of my edits on Christmas Day, which I celebrate (see my original reply for their diffs), so that he could report to "ArbCom of editor's behavior" in order to seek remedies for the 2004 ruling. At the time of Orangemarlin's reverts there was clearly no edit war going on. In fact, I had stopped editing complementary and alternative medicine for a few days since I had been mainly editing the complementary medicine article,. Furthermore, Having wised up to the editing tactics of the editors posting complaints on my talk page, I had been for approximately two weeks extremely careful not to post anything that might be construed as a personal attack. So, at the time of the filing of this specific RfC I was being very civil to everyone.

So, I rightfully ask why Orangemarlin went out of his way on Christmas Day which I celebrate to revert two of my edits and to file this RfC? In my opinion, there is only one possible answer: Orangemarlin was intentionally using his two reverts along with his RfC as an editing tactic that would keep me from editing complementary and alternative medicine for a couple of days. In order to gain an editing advantage on complementary and alternative medicine that would allow Orangemarlin to make changes that never reached any consensus in the respective talk page.

Since this RfC was filed specifically in reference to the 2004 ruling, no subsequent rulings or blocks should be taken into consideration for this specific request of Orangemarlin. -- John Gohde (talk) 20:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You have managed to dig yourself one of the deepest holes in Wikipedia's history (which is saying quite a bit). That you find yourself unable to refrain from digging further is unfortunate. MastCell Talk 05:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * John, this is another distraction. This RfC is about your current behavior (and only that).


 * There are other rulings (mentioned above) that still apply, regardless of the opening comments of this RfC. Not only that, but current policies also apply, and your numerous violations of them are more than enough to get you blocked (that has happened enough without the desired results) or banned, without any type of current ArbCom happening (which causes even more disruption) or resorting to past ArbCom rulings.


 * The most worrying thing here is that you fail to understand why so many are complaining about you. This also applies to your interactions elsewhere on the internet, where you leave a nasty trail behind you, are constantly in conflict with others, and also get banned. A simple Google search of your name turns up some very telling information. An attitude that everyone else is wrong and that only you are right is problematic. Your stated attitude towards Wikipedia admins (that they are "mentally ill" - documented above) reveals so serious conflicts between your basic attitudes about Wikipedia and the purposes of Wikipedia, its policies, and the congenial and collaborative editing environment we want to have here, that I doubt you are capable of ever being anything other than a disruptive, contentious editor who sees Wikipedia as his own property to be used for advocacy.


 * I find it quite interesting that Jimbo Wales himself saw fit to refer your actions to (possibly the first) ArbCom. Way back then he realized what a danger you were to the project, and history has proved him right. --  Fyslee  /  talk  05:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * John was actually asking a real question? I thought he was being sarcastic.  I'm shocked (said with veritable mountains of sarcasm).  I didn't go out of my way to do anything.  I was bored on Christmas Day because it has no meaning to me, I was editing, because I know vandals with new computers come out in the loads full.  I was doing some checking into John Gohde, found out he had a sock that got the first ArbCom ruling, and voila, I'm here.  Nothing more sinister than that.  And the whole you've dug is so deep, I don't think they have internet service down there.   Orange Marlin  Talk• Contributions 05:36, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I think we're done here. It is absolutely apparent that John Gohde sees himself as a bearer of The Truth&trade;, this is obvious from his user page, his user talk, and his off-wiki activism.  He likens himself to a woman who was sentenced harshly for being raped.  John, you're wrong.  As largely an outsider to this dispute I would say he is a tendentious editor, incivil, querulous to a fault and completely unwilling to accept that any criticism of him is valid.  The only question is whether we need a user conduct RfC before moving to ArbCom, I believe we do but only to establish that John's behaviour is not significantly different from that which led to sanction in the previous arbitration case.  Guy (Help!) 11:52, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * See Requests for arbitration. Guy (Help!) 18:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Turkics in Armenia <-> Azerbaijanis in Armenia

 * This issue was originally posted on WP:ANB/I -- Cat chi? 01:58, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * User:Grandmaster and User:Atabek seems to want the title "Azerbaijanis in Armenia"
 * User:VartanM and User:Eupator seems to want the title "Turkics in Armenia"
 * Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan
 * Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2
 * Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2

A slow paced move war seems to be the case. I do not know the details (did not really looked deep into it) but there seems to be a problem. People may have been violated their revert parole from the linked arbcom case above. In any case an admin review is necesary.

I am particularly bothered by VartanM's conduct on List of attacks by the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia as he is removing reliable (governmental) sources:  

-- Cat chi? 01:31, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reporting and notifying. This is a content dispute, which revolves around what sort of material should go into the article. As for ASALA, Turkish governmental sources can not be considered reliable, and neutral since the Turkish government was the primary target of ASALA. And we all know what Turkish government thinks about Armenians. You are welcome to provide neutral sources. I suggest looking in the TKB. VartanM (talk) 00:05, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Content dispute or not, revet parole maybe at work. I'll let an admin or two decide on the verdict.
 * This statement adds to the problem. I find it inflammatory. Governmental sources are well within WP:RS. Obviously the Ugandan government will not cover ASALA attacks...
 * -- Cat chi? 00:18, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I will always welcome mediators and third opinions in Armenia-Azerbaijan disputes. Judging by the month old diff you brought it up, you can't provide neither. I am still waiting for the explanation in the talkpage of ASALA article. If you want a constructive environment, you shouldn't revert the article to your proffered version and then report the other party to ANI. Back to the
 * Azers/Turkics in Armenia the only outcome I see is having two sapperate articles, one for Azerbaijanis in Armenia, another for Turkics in Armenia. You can not have an article about Turkic tribes, some of whom are distinctly different from Azeris and call the article Azeris in Armenia. If there are any volunteers who are willing to help us divide the article, they can express their views in the talkpage. VartanM (talk) 00:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * "And we all know what Turkish government thinks about Armenians." <- That is racist and inflammatory.
 * It seems like the only problem you have with the Governmental source is that it is Turkish...
 * -- Cat chi? 01:13, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I consider this edit racist and inflammatory. It was uncalled for! I am beginning to think someone is gaming the system.
 * Judging by the overwhelming number of Azerbaijan-Armenia posts here, I think a 3rd arbcom case is necesary.
 * -- Cat chi? 01:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Good for you, but you are wrong. This is not a secret, it's common knowledge. The Turkish governments attitude towards Armenians in general is not far from the Third Reichs attitude towards the Jews mildly put. Any publication on the Turkish MFA site for example concerning Armenians is vile and racist:. A growing number of Turkish people in Turkey are sick and tired with their government and their position as a result, like them you should condemn the government instead of supporting their sick and deranged propaganda. Weren't you a party of an arbitration case that dealt with this topic as a matter of fact several years ago that got you banned from the Armenian Genocide article? --  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 03:36, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I also think that third arbcom is inevitable. POV push and edit warring by a certain group of editors has to stop. Grandmaster (talk) 05:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I never got banned from any article and even if I had, that still would not justify your conduct here. Who is my government again? I never announced such a thing. You know, I have been accused of being from so many nationalities it ain't even interesting anymore. I do not believe this will be tolerated any longer. -- Cat chi? 12:57, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Eupator, this is not a place for WP:SOAP. Sufficient to say that up to 100,000 Armenians today reside in Turkey, have their own church and functioning patriarchate, while not a single Turkic soul (apart from 100 people you mentioned) is left in Armenia. And about Third Reich and Jews, if I may - Jerusalem Post article about the vandalism against the Holocaust Memorial in Yerevan, Armenia - as recent as yesterday, December 23rd. This is while, Turkey has been a safehaven for Jews fleeing Inquisition in middle ages and Holocaust in 20th century. In any case, what's relevant in Wikipedia are specific comments by Wikipedia contributors, and hope you come up with facts to support your statements next time. Otherwise, please, assume good faith. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 09:52, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It is always convenient for you to soapbox about this issue and claim it is not the place to soapbox. The only person who soapboxed is you; Eupator explained why the statement is not racist. There have been more anti-Jewish actions in Turkey then there will even be in Armenia multiplied by a factor of few thousands. Three part of a series on The Middle East Media Research Institute., , . The anti-semitism (not real anti-semitism) in Armenia is directly related to Israel acting as a puppet of Turkey supporting its politics on the Armenian Genocide issue. While the anti-semitism in both Turkey and Azerbaijan are the belief in a Jewish world domination of some sort, the belief of Islamist fanatics. The Ottomans opened their doors to the Jews not to save them but they opened their doors to the Jews to populate them in Greek and Armenian quarters to fight against those minority groups’ economical supremacy. It was also Turkey which installed the Capital Tax against its Jewish, Armenian and Greek population in World War II, near identical to the Reich tax to have them out from Turkey. Had Turkey not been Israel's ally, right now we would have Israeli lawyers or Jewish organizations suing it for the missing worth of hundred of millions of gold which passed by Turkey. Besides, it is scholars like Pierre Vidal-Naquet (Holocaust specialist) who compares the modern Turkish regime position toward the Armenians as the Third Reich and its ambassadors to Himmlers. If notable scholars can make such comparisons, so can Eupator, Vartan etc. - Fedayee (talk) 19:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Content dispute. Unless you want an admin to arbitrarily make a decision for you, don't bring these here. Further comparison of Turkey with Nazi Germany is not recommended. Picaroon (t) 19:20, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * How much more will we good users have to tolerate such nonsense? VartanM, Eupator, Fedayee has such a constant inflammatory tone. The above conduct basically is a test of my patience. You state that such contribution isn't recommended. Shouldn't it be banned? -- Cat chi? 01:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

VartanM placed on A-A 2's restriction. - Penwhale &#124; Blast him / Follow his steps 22:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * What is A-A 2 restriction. I would welcome so that ignorant masses (that would be me) know precisely what it means. :) -- Cat chi? 01:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * User:Andranikpasha is also removing sourced content . -- Cat chi? 01:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Not content, but biased non-reliable, non-governmental source, which you're pushing. VartanM (talk) 01:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Minister of Culture of Turkey is a governmental source unless you do not consider Turkey as a country. Turkish government is QUITE reliable. Terrorism Knowledge Base of Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism (MIPT), a non-profit organization funded by the United States Department of Homeland Security is also quite reliable. Have you actually checked the diff? -- Cat chi? 14:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * White Cat, an admin comment on "reliability" of that Turkish "source" on Armenian Genocide denial and Armenian "terrorism" is added to the article's talk. Pls read it! Andranikpasha (talk) 15:10, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * White Cat: this is the restriction. - Penwhale &#124; Blast him / Follow his steps 04:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I find it truly amazing that no one is seeing anything at all. It's really sad. Eupator gave his time in expanding an article and had it sabotaged, Vartan on the other hand has to deal with Atabek’s provocations by having to deal with someone who compares the Armenian regime with NAZI Germany. We have Ehud, who we all know is Adil. Vartan was the one member without a restriction who had to deal with two members, who were using the fact that they had no restriction by simply reverting and only Vartan could have done anything about it.

Here you have Atabek talking about an event which a few hours later, Ehud adds to an article.

Also, I don't see in any way how the summary of Vartan is offending, if they want to have the article on the Azeris in Armenia, then they should cover only those. I don't think the Turkmen, the Turks, the Tartars etc., would like to be called in mass as Azeri. - Fedayee (talk) 08:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The one who really expanded this article was Parishan, and Eupator deleted many of his edits. Then together with Vartan they tried to move the article to a new title without any consensus on talk with other involved editors, and in his last edit Vartan deleted plenty of sourced info again. Also, Fedayee, you presented no compelling evidence that Ehud is somehow related to Adil, and checkuser does not support your claims either. You were advised by the admins not to claim that Ehud is Adil unless it is officially proved that he is, but you keep on baiting this user by your baseless allegations. How long is this gonna continue? Grandmaster (talk) 11:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Grandmaster, pls look on your edits before asking about others. We need common standards here! Im the only person who really expanded to Shusha pogrom (1920) and you deleted many of my edits and moved to Ethnic clashes in Shusha in March 1920 without any consensus. And do you remember, how without marking any facts you wikistalked me saying Im a sock of user Artaxiad until I was blocked and re-opened just because an admin get sure Im not a sock but a newbie who dont know how to self-defence! Had you any facts that I was a sock of Artaxiad then? Andranikpasha (talk) 12:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That article eventually got moved by admins to another provisional title, since the one created by you was POV. And I only filed a cu on you, that does not amount to wikistalking and was quite justified considering the amount of sockpuppetry on this topic. I advised Fedayee many times to do the same with regard to Ehud and follow the established procedures to deal with his suspicions. Grandmaster (talk) 12:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Admin movings (also called by you a POV) is another case I wrote about your unconsensused info deletions and moving. And why wikistalkings by you are justified considering the amount of sockpuppetry on Armenia-Azerbaijan topic, and when Fedayee disputtes Ehud's sockpuppetry, you represent it as an significant point (problem) here? Andranikpasha (talk) 15:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Parishan’s contribution on Wikipedia overall has been disruptive, we have documented in the previous case that he has edited countless articles to have the term Azerbaijani added when it should not have been done. If another case is opened, we will document how he has created countless articles about individuals which do not pass the test of notability. Parishan’s contribution on Wikipedia look to be centered on adding the term Azerbaijani, and adding as many articles (which otherwise will not pass the test of notability) to have that word there. This is more particularly related to events covering periods where the Azerbaijani identity did not exist. You claim that some group of editors’ POV pushing should be covered and another arbitration is necessary. During the two arbitration cases, you have failed to document any POV pushing; we on the other hand during the second arbitration case have loaded the evidence page with POV pushing which was ignored totally. We have dozens of pages documenting POV pushing and I agree on a next arbitration about POV pushing, this is what I wanted during the last one, and I will oppose any new arbitration which would not be centered on that because a new case which would not deal with this would be a waste of time.


 * And this time the evidence, which had it been available or known by some of us during the first case, would have probably changed the final decision, particularly on Atabek. So yes, I want a third arbitration too but only if this time it is taken more seriously. And yes Ehud is Adil, and evidence points that Elsanturk is behind this Ehud thing too, all that is needed is a new arbitration case with fresh blood… maybe the arbitration this time will be reading the evidence... - Fedayee (talk) 18:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Fedayee, - what an incredible waste of community's time... After it's once more clarified that Ehud Lesar and AdilBaguirov are not the same person, I suggest that you apologize to these and all other contributors, with regards to whom you just keep on assuming bad faith. Atabek (talk) 01:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Fedayee, you can be my guest and raise the notability question for every single article I have created. I honestly see nothing wrong in the fact that most of my articles have to do with personalities and events that are linked to Azeri culture. Just like most of your edits have to do with Armenia-related issues. Parishan (talk) 09:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the inclusion of my name in this report was appropriate. I only moved the article once, almost a week ago, for 2 reasons which I clearly explained on the talk page:


 * 1. There is no such word as "Turkics" in English vocabulary
 * 2. The article content for 99% deals with the eradicated Azerbaijani community in Armenia

I don't know to what extent my single page title change with justification is considered edit warring, in light of Eupator or VartanM revert activity, just check the article history.

In the rest, if someone wants to expand and use Turkic instead of Azeri to describe the unfortunate fate of Turkic-speakers in Armenia in light of the policies of anti-Turkism and ongoing conflicts, then fine. It seems that some contributors think that by purging out or replacing the name "Azeri" or "Azerbaijani" from articles or their titles is going to add anything encyclopedic. Atabek (talk) 22:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * My goodness, now Elsanturk is Ehud too, or the other way around. Perhaps, Atabek and Grandmaster are Adils too. Who else who's not supported Armenian point of view? Parishan, Aynabend, etc. With this logic, we will all "become socks" soon. I agree with Atabek. I hope Fedayee and others who try so hard to relate me to any other names are demanded an apology when everything becomes clear. (Ehud (talk) 03:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC))

I have blocked for 24 hours due to the above accusation that Ehud is Adil, and left a note on User talk:Fedayee with more background. John Vandenberg (talk) 06:09, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

It's clear that the so-called "admin" John Vandenberg has turned himself into a meatpuppet for the Azeri users. He completely justified Ehud's insults and AGF violations, in fact he even encouraged them. He insulted Fedayee after Ehud was reported for insulting other users. And now this pseudo-admin is blocking a Fedayee as a final act of service to the Azeri users. He has no job being an administrator. We will make sure that he is stripped of that privilege.

Fedayee has ample evidence that Ehud is a sockpuppet, and he has the right to express it, to prevent a potential sockpuppet from disrupting articles without a restriction.

And by the way, if an administrator starts behaving suspiciously, users have every right to point it out, due to the serious potential of abuse. --TigranTheGreat (talk) 07:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Just a few more facts. WP:AGF is not a policy. It is a guideline which "is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception." (WP:AGF). Saying that someone is a sockpuppet is not a violation of AGF--someone may engage in sockpuppetry with good faith (i.e. believing that he is making Wikipedia better).

Furthermore, a penalty should be applied after an official warning is placed on a user's talk page, and the user is told that continued violation will result in blocking. It's spelled out in the ArbCom decision: "Before any penalty is applied, a warning placed on the editor's user talk page by an administrator shall serve as notice to the user that these remedies apply to them." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan_2 Poorly worded and vulgar requests (containing phrases such as "shut up", ) on other pages do not count.

In sum, Fedayee's block was highly inappropriate and needs to be lifted. I request a neutral admin to do so. Thank you.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 11:14, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This block was not intended to be part of Arb enforcement simply because it occurred on the AN/AE noticeboard, as I have explained on the users talk page. I have requested a review on WP:AN in order to gather wider input. John Vandenberg (talk) 11:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Let's see the choice of the words by Tigran: so-called "admin" John Vandenberg has turned himself into a meatpuppet for the Azeri users (Tigran got away with "so called Azerbaijanis", now this), "pseudo-admin is blocking a Fedayee as a final act of service to the Azeri users", and goes as far as intimidating: ''He has no job being an administrator. We will make sure that he is stripped of that privilege''. Tigran thinks that sticking to WP:AGF is not obligatory, even despite the recent arbcom specifically mentioning it among its principles:, how about WP:Civil? Grandmaster (talk) 13:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Grandmaster, TigranTheGreat is not the only one, I think all the users by Armenian side (off course included me) are sharing Tigran's opinion that Jayvdb's activities on Armenia-Azerbaijan related articles are always pro-Azeri biased and surely Jayvdb knows our common opinion about this (see for example []). Anyways he's continuing to "arbitrate" Armenia-Azerbaijani questions without leaving this hard responsibility for a less biased admin who can made a real consensus not a basis for future conflicts. The tolerance is what we need in Wikipedia! By all the sides! Andranikpasha (talk) 14:13, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Andranikpasha, as you know two of the people that recently were foaming at the mouth about my involvement in this area were sockpuppets user:Bassenius and user:Verjakette. The only other two people that have voiced their discontent are yourself and TigranTheGreat, which isnt surprising because I have warned you both for being extremely difficult.  VartanM has made a snide remark on Talk:Shusha which I think was more directed at the overall quagmire this topical area is (I wasnt mediating the article at the time).  As far as I know there is nobody else who has not been banned by someone other than myself; please correct me if I am wrong.


 * As for having a pro-Azeri bias, perhaps that you forget that I happily transcribe pro-Armenian sources like The New York Times/Nurses stuck to post and The New York Times/Armenia prepared for a hard fight, of which at least the former you used in an article (Shusha, I think it was).


 * I have mostly Azeri articles on my watchlist primarily because I came into this topical area as a result of involvement with the Rasulzade article (I dont recall how I arrived there; it was over a year ago, feel free to dig through my contribs); I've yet to spend time working on primarily Armenian articles, but by the same token I have yet to tackle any predominately Iranian or Turkish topics either. To imply that this means I have a pro-anything worldview is bordering on paranoid.  I simply have not been in a position to need to defend the Armenian point of view from being trampled on, as nobody has ever asked me to and I am busy enough as it is.


 * I do not "tolerate" stonewalling and incomplete sourcing and/or research. Perhaps that is the problem. John Vandenberg (talk) 15:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry John I dont want to discuss your biasement I done it earlier many times and you know my opinion. Just some things: the source on Shusha was found and represented by me (not you), I already used it, and you just putted it to Wikisource. Sorry its not a great help! And I dont want you to became pro-Armenian Im just said your activities are pro-Azeri biased and no any user by Armenian side disagrees with me (not only the socks you marked, but all, all Armenians:). Also you're watching both Armenian and Azeri articles. Thats not the problem. The problem is only Armenian users are warned by you, and you made only pro-Azeri biased editions. Do you need some obvious facts? Andranikpasha (talk) 18:04, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, you found the the article and mentioned it here on October 9, with a transcription. As far as I know, it wasnt until November 22 that you used that source on an article.  In that time, I had put it on Wikisource, and added many others to it.  I have no intention of being pro-anything; I'm just interested in improving our coverage of this topical area.  That includes putting PD sources onto Wikisource where they can be easily accessed, discussed and value-added with Wikilinks. John Vandenberg (talk) 19:04, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I remember that User:TigranTheGreat was claiming punishment for another third party user, who happened to disagree with Tigran on Khojaly article.  Grandmaster (talk) 16:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know much about this admin but I think blocking someone for accusations of sockpuppetry is hogwash particulalry when there is a mountian of evidence. I'm accusing Ehud of being a sokpuppet as well. Once again that block is of extreme poor judgement and requires immediate review. Also John Vandenberg asked for clarification here User talk:Fedayee/LesarBaguirov Evidence 3 days ago and never responded. If he is so interested and deeply involved in this case to the extent of issuing blocks why on earth did he not bother to take into consideration the response to a question that he put forward? --  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 17:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Upon further review I must say that All of Vandenberg's interventions are indeed ALWAYS one sided. Starting with the move at Paytakaran while the article was being mediated and the mediation turned against Grandmaster who started edit warring leaving the table. In fact, you ALWAYS appeared when an inch of apperearence of misbehavior was from our side. But where were you during the rest of the time? VartanM remark? What more evidences of your bias when you criticised it here in a discussion which also contained references of Atabek comparing the Armenian regime with the NAZIs. Indeed no one was ever fragile to the ears when this comment was made on various occasions. Only has it disturbed you when the comparison with the Reich and Turkey was made. Then, Picaroon made a comment, White cat was so much insulted. Or what about your justifications of Ehud infamous remarks, you must have also missed his remark to Fedayee accusing him of being brainwashed. Was this reply also related to the accusation of sockuppetry?

Golbez was pushed out from mediation, while no one had any problems when he was locking the article on Grandmasters version, neither when he was reverting Armenian users. But what about you? Tell me how when on average you don't know anything is happening in those articles, you ALWAYS appear at the right time at the right place, which is to support one side against the other?

Also, I do imply you are pro-something and I find comments such as this offensivebordering on paranoia.

Stonewalling? Here one more, Ehud is a sockpuppet of Adil. This is to say it midly quite obvious. He claims he learned the things about Geycha from libraries, it must be quite difficult when such a claim put forward by Adil is neither included in any article on Jstor or any web database, neither in a single work found on google book. More surprising is his intervention on the Church of Kish, when the number of people who wrote anything about it could be counted on one hand. In fact one magazine he contributes in, and one article written by Adil Baguirov are mostly all to be found supporting the position he was maintaining. ''The restoration work related to the Church and humanitarian help to Azerbaijani refugees and IDPs by NHE can be reflected in a new article. Heyerdahl's visits and research on theories should rather be added to his page.'' Such a knowledge from an alleged Jew of a subject not even notable.

This guys participation on Wikipedia could be mostly resumed at reverting to Grandmaster, Atabek etc. version in articles which were interesting so much for Adil Baguirov socks. This guy maintains unconventional positions which are exclusive to Adil, regardless of what he claims. This guy started contributing on Wikipedia hours later Adil knew he will be banned. No one will assume downright that an editor is obviously impressed by Adil, unless the person who is backing that claim is Adil himself. On three different occasions when sockuppetry was at its peak, it only stopped after Ehud returned. He claims he has a heavy schedule, funny that the heavy schedule of Adils sockuppet will in those occasions coincide with Ehud's light schedules. Or the association between Atabek and Ehud, the same way there is one between Adils socks who were mostly always landing in the articles where Atabek was contributing. Like Atabeks comment about the holocaust monument vandalism in Armenia, and few hours later Ehud having a section prepared to be posted in an articles mainspace. And the many other evidences provided in Fedayee's page, including those I have supplemented elsewhere makes of this sockuppetry thing confirmed. That you request more time to study this or are incapable of confirming what is obvious is no reason to block a member. If a new arbitration case is opened you MUST be added as an involved party!

Vartan gets the restriction for an accurate and supported edit summary, Fedayee is blocked for 24 hours a day after. I wonder who Penwale has consulted as he claims. I hope it wasn't you, neither Whitecat (who so much concentrated on Armenian and Kurdish "terrorism" filling articles with unreliable references comming from the Turkish government propaganda websites). --  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 17:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I dont have time to answer all of this right now as it's 5am here, but to ensure there is no confusion, neither Penwale or Whitecat has consulted me. I dont know Penwale at all, and have only run into Whitecat a few times wrt to image related discussions on commons (presuming I have the right cat).
 * I have looked and seen Ehud's regular reverts which is why I think it warrants further investigation, and I have committed to doing it, but continual accusations do not make that user a sock puppet. It takes time to thoroughly analyse a users contributions in order to independently verify that they are a sock puppet (something I dont like to accuse someone of without a good reason).  I did not respond to the additional note at User talk:Fedayee/LesarBaguirov Evidence because the thick of the holiday season arrived.  When I returned to review AN/AE I found Fedayee had continued to make the same accusations in spite of the warning days earlier, and this thread going along the same path as .  Note that in that thread I specifically said that VartanM's use of colourful words was reasonable, as I dont think it is wise for Wikipedians to get their knickers in a knot over every barb in each others words on talk page - the way to stop words escalating into blocks is to shrug them off where possible, and get back to our task of writing an encyclopedia.
 * I have explained why my interventions are primarily one sided. If you review my contributions, my interventions are limited to a few articles that I have already contributed to, or I have contributed to articles in very close proximity to them.  That has nothing to do with my point of view or any bias.  If the other side of these topic disputes request that I take a look at something, and give me the space to come up to speed at my own pace, my watchlist would be full of Armenian articles as well. John Vandenberg (talk) 18:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Eupator and TigranTheGreat, please, check this section of AGF policy (and it says in introduction that AGF is the fundamental policy in Wikipedia): In this case, User:Fedayee keeps on accusing Ehud Lesar of sockpuppetry with Adil, while not having any confirmation for his claims. Also, User talk:Fedayee/LesarBaguirov Evidence, which you cite above seems to be analyzing and trying to identify the geographical location and personal details of User:AdilBaguirov, which is on the borderline of WP:HARASS. As I said, it would be much easier, if administrators dealing with this case directly contact each contributor to obtain the proofs that one is not the other. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 19:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If bad faith motives are alleged without clear evidence that others' editing is in fact based upon bad faith, it can also count as a form of personal attack, and in it, the user accusing such claim is not assuming good faith.

Atabek, WP:AGF says nothing about it being a fundamental policy, as you misquoted. It states that it's a fundamental principle. And, the page states that it's a guideline which doesn't need to be applied in all circumstances. Please stop misleading others with false statements. As for accusing Ehud--there is very clear evidence that he is a sockpuppet, it's been clearly manifested--hence it is NOT a personal attack to call things by their names.

To Jayvdb: It doesn't matter why your interventions are one sided. Since you admit that your actions are indeed one sided, regardless of the reason, you need to step away from Armenian-Azerbaijani articles to avoid such one-sided actions. That's the only way to guarantee neutrality. Which means, to start off, you need to lift off Fedayee's block, which right now provides EXTREMELY strong evidence of your bias.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 19:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That, quite frankly, is obvious nonsense. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 19:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Is this one-side support a nonsense too ? Andranikpasha (talk) 19:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Eupator, you and Fedayee are not only accussing me. You're obviously stalking me. If you posted your so called "evidence" by going through my contributions, contributions of user Adil Bagirov, Atabek, Grandmaster, Elsanturk, etc., comparing the dates of edits/reverts, talk page discussions, etc., calculating and then pasting bunch of links to claim this proves I am someone I am just NOT, that doesn't mean I am that very same user and have to be banned. Javydb clearly pointed out to Fedayee that he will investigate and so did the other admins. Why do you keep stalking me? Why don't you just continue contributing and expect the decision? It's not like I edited hundreds of Armenian articles in a day. On contrary, as a sign of respect to the admins looking into the issue, and as a sign of respect to the Armenian requestors, I did not start or edit many articles I wanted to, until my name is cleared.
 * Secondly, if not much information about Azerbaijan and History of Azerbaijan exists online in above mentioned databases and google books, that doesn't mean they don't exist at all. This is perhaps one of the mistake Azeris have been making. While Armenians, largely represented by Armenian diaspora in Western countries have had the first access to online resources, and moreover, had access for easier publishing in western languages, Azeris have not, and as a whole, have obviously been passive. If you ever attend libraries in other countries and perhaps Azerbaijan itself, rather than only searching for them online, you will come to find out that these books, articles and documents are available for you to read. Just looking at the volume of Azerbaijani online literature and hard copy literature as a whole on history of the conflict as well as history of Azerbaijan since the beginning of 1990's, and comparing it to the decades before, you will find an answer to your question. Sources on Armenian though and Armenian point of view has been there several decades earlier, and were taken online right after we found out what internet is. Hope this clarifies why and how I read and have read some books you are not aware of.
 * Third, you're mentioning my addition to the article on Jews in Armenia after allegedly Atabek posted it somewhere in Wikipedia. Now it gets really funny. In the preceding comment, you're mentioning that there is no information about Geycha and Zangezur online, Jstor, google books, and then you're also saying that I posted something (available online) which Atabek posted some time ago. Eupator, you're contradicting yourself. I am notified about news on Israel by google notifier, and other users may use the same tools, you know, just like Armenian users read the news about Armenia every day.
 * Fourth, "this guy..." is not an appropriate way of addressing. Some respect would be nice. Ehud (talk) 23:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Random edit point
Oh My Goddess! I just keep my eye off of wikipedia for... What? 48 hours? And we have a full fledged flame war! Please take your flame war elsewhere preferably off-wiki. This page is for Arbitration enforcement and your fine points on your other issues do not belong here at all. -- Cat chi? 23:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Dear John Vandenberg, out of curiosity, and since one side of the Aremnia-Azerbaijan conflict strongly feels that you are not neutral, I have been studying your contributions, and you do have a history of mysteriously appearing on various articles in which User:Grandmaster is involved in, usually to support User:Grandmaster's position in an editorial conflict. There is an undeniable pattern that supports this assertion, so in light of this, can you please clarify the nature of your relationship with User:Grandmaster? Are you in contact with User:Grandmaster outside Wikipedia via emails and instant messaging? --JamesDS (talk) 23:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Why not use his talk page for that question? -- Cat chi? 00:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Having read the above flame war how can anyone seriously believe that these are people who came here to edit in good faith and build an encyclopedia? How much time has now been wasted on this? Half this darn page seems to be about this dispute. Time to get that clampdown effect on people who aren't here for the encyclopedia going. AGF not set in stone? Oh come on already. EconomicsGuy (talk) 19:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think its worse than that. Most of the flame wars are collapsed meaning you only see it if you click the hide/show button. -- Cat chi? 00:32, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

White Cat
This is user is disrupting the project.
 * He just attacked the Armenian genocide memorial images. He deleted the ones in commons and requested the ones on wikipedia to be deleted as well He is a known Armenian genocide denier and his actions are disruptive and insulting. I request immediate attention. VartanM (talk) 02:18, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * We have no jurisdiction over commons. Thatcher 15:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You do here on wiki. VartanM (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 06:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Two IfD nominations is not disruption. Thatcher 15:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I merely am bringing the problem to community attention. Those images are actually speedy deletable per Armenian law. I am giving the community every opportunity relicense them. I am even willing to upload them from commons to here on en.wikipedia if there is a need. Few commons admins would go this far. I guess this is the reward I get... No good deed goes unpunished... -- Cat chi? 16:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Deleting images for copyvio reasons is not disruption. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 02:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Select copy of edit history

 * 17:34, 10 November 2007 User:VartanM - MIPT is somewhat reliable Turkish ministry of culture and Australian-Turkish media group are not.Please use neutral, third party sources.
 * 22:14, 13 November 2007 User:Denizz - partial rv
 * 07:36, 8 December 2007 User:White Cat - full revert. Please do not remove sourced material
 * 12:54, 8 December 2007 User:VartanM - full revert. I didn't remove material. only unreliable partisan sources
 * 19:03, 24 December 2007 User:White Cat - revert back to last fully sourced version, also made a few other alterations. Stop removing sourced material.
 * 18:16, 25 December 2007 User:Andranikpasha - a Turkish propagandist site supporting the Genocide denial and dedicated to Armenian "terrorism" is surely biased and not reliable one!
 * 21:16, 25 December 2007 User:Bjweeks - rv, see talk
 * 07:24, 26 December 2007 User:Andranikpasha - revert after a consensus is achieved, OK? also pls read the admin comment on reliability
 * 18:34, 27 December 2007 User:White Cat - Do not remove sources without a good reason. You arent even disputing the validity of the information prsented here.
 * 18:49, 27 December 2007 User:Andranikpasha - rv, discuss at talk first, have a consensus and then add (without this propagandist site!) look on an admin comment


 * On 10 November VartanM made his first contribution to the article in question. All he did was remove the sources presented. One from the Turkish Ministry of Culture and the other a Turkish media group based in Australia (which MIPT considers reliable enough to credit).
 * Denizz somewhat revered him 3 days later on 13 November.
 * White Cat fully reverted the source removals 25 days later on 8 December.
 * White Cat was reverted by VartanM on the same day back to his last version.
 * White Cat reverted again 16 days later on 24 December.
 * White Cat posted a complaint to this page on 25 December after noticing Turkics in Armenia <-> Azerbaijanis in Armenia move war. White Cat's bot User:Computer fixed a double redirect created by that nonsense.
 * White Cat was reverted by Andranikpasha on 25 December after my post.
 * White Cat contacted the uninvolved Bjweeks via IRC to look into the matter as a third party. White Cat did not choose him and instead made a general post to the channel. White Cat has reverted Andranikpasha and posted a comment on the talk page
 * Penwhale placed VartanM on A-A 2's restriction which he later explained as "this".
 * Andranikpasha reverted Bjweeks a day later on 26 December.
 * White Cat reverted to last version by Bjweeks on 27 December.
 * Andranikpasha reverted White Cat on the same day minutes later.
 * Compiled by Cat chi? on 19:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Comments
I hereby request the A-A 2's restriction be placed on Andranikpasha as he has only continued VartanM's behaviour. The only contribution of both VartanM and Andranikpasha to the article is the removal of the sources. -- Cat chi? 19:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is a known issue. User:Andranikpasha is edit warring across multiple pages. I can significantly expand your list. He was originally placed on parole for this, but it turned out that there's nothing that could be done about it and he is free to do it as long as he remains civil. The arbitration system can be easily gamed here. Grandmaster (talk) 19:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Two questions: to what extent has he actually been mentored because I can't find a single diff to show that but I may be wrong and second, why is he allowed to edit war when he was unblocked on condition of a working mentorship? He was indef blocked as a disruptive single purpose account. Is there any evidence to show that this has changed? EconomicsGuy (talk) 20:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

This is yet another content dispute brought here by White Cat. VartanM (talk) 23:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Please pull the other leg... You said to me "if you continue edit warring you will be reported". When I report Andranikpasha for edit warring the same issue becomes a content dispute? Can you at least please be consistent on what you are saying? -- Cat chi? 00:28, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * WP:V states. "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". Turkish propaganda cites and the ministry of tourism are neither. VartanM (talk) 00:41, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Request for comment is probably the only way to end this. Lets see what the community thinks about this. VartanM (talk) 00:42, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a complaint over user conduct. To be more specific the conduct of Andranikpasha. The content of the article, weather or not the sources stay, is irrelevant to this complaint of user conduct. Do not even attempt to change the subject. Others may fall for that but I wont. Any irrelevant comment will be promptly ignored so please stay on topic. Do not contribute to the problem.
 * Andranikpasha has a history of revert waring and has been blocked indefinately for doing so. He is only allowed to edit because he is under supervision of User:El C. Despite this he seems to have a consistent history of revert waring. Above is just one example. Revert wars are unwelcome as you agree. The only reason this isn't in 3RR complaints page is because of the two RFAR cases. 3RR isn't a license for three reverts.
 * -- Cat chi? 01:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you disprove the facts in the article using your own (apparently non-existent) reliable sources? If no then this boils down to the question of how this mentorship has worked and to what degree he has changed his behavior since the indef block. Also, per WP:NPOV both views must be presented unless they are fringe. Are you saying that the attacks did not occur or that the casualties are incorrectly reported. If so do you have reliable sources to backup this claim? White_Cat's sources are simply used as supplements and are used by the non-disputed sources. EconomicsGuy (talk) 01:02, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This is getting more and more absurd. Apparently per this his mentor is VartanM! This is the most absurd thing I've ever seen... and I've seen quite a bit here. I'm shocked to say the least. EconomicsGuy (talk) 02:31, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Whats so shocking? Care to elaborate? Whats shocking is how so many users just appeared out of nowhere. VartanM (talk) 02:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Unlike you I can edit freely. Continue your insinuations and I'll deal with you on ANI. As for your question I'm shocked that you are supposed to be mentoring him yet there you are side by side in the same dispute. I call for this mentorship to be stopped and at the very least an unrestricted uninvolved editor be named as mentor instead. When were you planning to disclose this? EconomicsGuy (talk) 02:40, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Excuse me? Be honest, White Cat asked you to come here didn't he? My mentorship of Andranik started back in September, he hasn't been blocked and is very familiar with how wikipedia works. He disscusses his edits and is open to mediation and compromise. I consider your remark about my edit restriction, which was applied to me only 3 day ago, an insult and I will report you if they continue. I want to remind you that this noticeboard is not for content disputes. VartanM (talk) 02:52, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * There is no content dispute since you can't dispute any content with reliable sources. Why didn't you say so at the top of this thread? Why didn't you correct White Cat when he referred to EL_C as his mentor? You knew perfectly well that this was about the mentorship, why didn't you just say that you are the mentor? EconomicsGuy (talk) 03:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Have you noticed the hidden text White Cat has been adding? The one About Yanikian. Yanikian had nothing to do with ASALA, the organization didn't even exist when he commited the murder, It isn't even a terrorist attack. The sources White cat is pushing is Australian-Turkish media group, who's goal and objective is to respond to the Armenians and Greeks. The other one is Turkish Ministry of Culture and Tourism this one falls under WP:V it's not a third party source. Is it so hard to find neutral sources? Why are we even arguing about this? What happened to NPOV? and to answer you question, you're the only one who brought up the mentorship, El_C is the one who designated me as his mentor, if you have further questions, you can ask him. VartanM (talk) 03:13, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So let me get this straight so if two planes carry out a suicide attacks on the World Trade Center in New York City, I can't use New York police or US government as a source? Is that what you are trying to say? Or if a suicide attack is carried out against a USS Cole (DDG-67), I can't use the US Government as a source for that either? -- Cat chi? 17:10, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * No, what I'm saying is that Turkish sources have a clear bias toward Armenians and you can not use them as a reliable source. I'm tired of this, open a RFC VartanM (talk) 18:37, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Would you like dessert with your order sir? I am not your waiter. Direct your orders at someone else. US government is biased towards its own Terrorists (Al-Quida, Hezbollah, Hamas, whatever) no less than Turkish government. Attempts to fabricate a controversy don't tend to go well. -- Cat chi? 05:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Desert would be nice, but you can't compare US government with Turkish govt. for the simple fact that the rest of the world tends to agree with US, but a lot of governments including the US have spoken against Turkeys illigal blokade of Armenia, and its denial of the Armenian Genocide. In any case, three different admin's agreed that you can not use the Turkish sources, you need to let this one go. If you care about this article so much, find neutral sources and everyone will win. VartanM (talk) 05:36, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The worlds view on ASALA is pretty consistent. The French are not pleased with people bombing their airports. The Swiss immensely dislike people blowing up their embassies. The US hates shootouts getting their citizens killed. Turkeys closure of it's borders to Armenia or Turkeys position on the Armenian Genocide has nothing to do with this discussion. I told you before. Stay on topic. -- Cat chi? 06:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You're way off-topic, If I was to compare, I would compare using US govt source on anti-Iran related article. Turkish government can not be considered reliable source since its not third party. You have been told this by three admins. You are creating a dram out of nothing. Follow the rules please. VartanM (talk) 06:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I am off topic? ASALA did bomb French airports. ASALA did bomb swiss embassies. ASALA did shoot US citizens. This article covers such attacks. I am following the rules. Turkish government is an acceptable source. Any suggestion to the contrary must be based on sources. Burden of proof falls in your hands. We work with sources on Wikipedia, not with the opinions of a few editors. If the material on the Turkish governmental source is false, this should be easy enough to prove with sources. If you can't do that, tough luck. I am not creating drama at all. It isn't like I am engaged in frequent flame wars unlike some people I may mention as evident on the text below. -- Cat chi? 07:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * News flash. The text bellow was started by you. VartanM (talk) 07:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You are welcome to continue to avoid the question. -- Cat chi? 07:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I remember a similar dispute at Nagorno-Karabakh War. That article presents as facts claims of an obscure Armenian source about participation of Amir Ibn Khattab in the Karabakh war, while no third party reliable sources support such a claim. I remember how User:MarshallBagramyan and User:VartanM were arguing that it was ok to do so and that the Armenian anonymous (not even governmental) source was reliable to claim it as a fact. I was insisting on using third party sources and presenting the claims of the sides only as opinions, but this was rejected by the aforementioned users. You can even see here VartanM edit warring to keep the claim of the Armenian source presented as a fact.  Despite what he says in the edit summary, anyone can see that the claim is only supported by an Armenian source (i.e. The Armenian Weekly On-Line). VartanM’s position on using third party sources seems to be quite unstable. Grandmaster (talk) 10:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So far a lack of consistency has been the only thing consistent in my dealings with VartanM. -- Cat chi? 11:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Andranikpasha placed on revert parole for 6 months by Moreschi. Thatcher 02:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Eupator
was a party to both Armenia-Azerbaijan and Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 ArbCom cases. According to the remedies imposed on him in these cases, is subject to supervised editing and "is limited to one revert per page per week, excepting obvious vandalism". 

However on Azerbaijanis in Armenia he moved the page to a new title twice without any consensus on talk:, and then deleted large content from the article, which according to WP:3RR is also considered a revert:

Grandmaster (talk) 09:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Moving the page twice is a violation of revert parole, as far as I can see (though removing the content is not, the policy is just badly phrased) but 3 days after the violation any block would be overly punitive. Eupator can consider himself warned not do so again, if you please. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 15:08, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * No it's not. Move # 1 was a regular edit. Move number # 2 was a revert. How on earth is this a violation? This is not a violation, the move was a consequence of my edit not the aim. I expanded the article and included data about tribes and more data regarding population movements which was not specific to the Azerbaijani's, had I created one article, the consequences would have been to request the merging because some information covered what is already in the Azeris in Armenia article. Others moved my article by leaving my additions there which made no sense and was illogical because I really expanded the article and with the already included content it could not have been considered as Azeris in Armenia, so I made a revert, ONCE. This makes one revert, not two. I don't understand why Grandmaster is even including the deletion, it included what I added myself and also information not specific to the Azeris, I took them out to create another article about the Turkic people in Armenia throughout history. I don't see how this counts as a revert, as a revert of what, what I added myself? Where is the second revert? I modified the article, expanded it to be more general, I was reverted for the renaming not the rest, then I reverted. I had 1 revert, the first not being one..., since some people started to edit war, I removed what I had added. Kindly retract your warning or elaborate.--  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 00:41, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Eupator removed large chunks of well-presented, relevant and sourced information from the article and drastically modified its content, along with its title. If he wanted to cover the history of Turkic tribes in Armenia, the Azeris in Armenia article did not have to suffer. He should simply have started a new section within the article, or a new article, rather than disturbing the one that took almost a month of intense discussion to reach consensus on earlier in 2007, and remained in that form for the past 6 months. Not to mention multiple reverts on Eupator's part, which I believe contradict the Arbcom ruling. Eupator claims he made only one revert, when in fact deleting another user's contributions (in this case, mine) is in fact considered a revert. He started the edit war on the article by moving the page twice without any consensus with other editors on talk. Parishan (talk) 08:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * There never was any consensus on that article. And the only reason why the article remained that way is because Parishan is acting as if thinks he owns the article. Parishan claims that Eupator has removed large chunks of article… what he does not say is that those were irrelevant. The article is used as a vehicle to rewrite history by claiming an identity which was yet not formed. I and Eupator have agreed on a RFC, now Parishan has yet to agree. - Fedayee (talk) 19:19, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Eupator once again deleted large content from the article, which was there for many months. He did that without any consensus on talk with other involved parties. While this is not a violation of his parole, it is an obvious POV editing, which is the main reason why the conflicts on this topic never end. The same thing happens on many other articles. Grandmaster (talk) 06:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Why aren't you reporting Parishan, Aynabend and Baku87. They are not violating anything, but it is an obvious POV editing which is the main reason why the conflicts on this topic never end. The same happens on many other articles. (I typed each letter) VartanM (talk) 07:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * They did not delete from the article anything that was there for many months, unlike Eupator, yourself and Andranik, did they? Grandmaster (talk) 07:31, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If you want the material to remain, which Eupator expended then you have to agree that article be renamed to reflect what it covers. Otherwise you're free to create a new article that covers Turkic tribes in Armenia and add the deleted info there, I don't think anyone will disagree with that. VartanM (talk) 08:17, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And by did not delete you mean like this ? VartanM (talk) 08:34, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Eupator moved the page twice without any consensus and deleted content many times without consensus. If he thought that the article should have been a certain way, he needed to discuss and reach consensus first. As a long time editor you should know that. As for you diff, all the staff added by Andranik is undue weight, it takes more space than any other section in the article and is another example of tendentious editing. Grandmaster (talk) 08:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Ehud Lesar
Lately user Ehud Lesar has been openly insulting other users, engaging in trolling, and seriously violating the Wikipedia policies requiring Civility and Assumption of Good Faith.

Just in the past 24 hours Ehud Lesar trolled and insulted several times, all on this page. Following are the examples.

Here is an obvious act of trolling against another user (Fedayee):

"Keep talking. Maybe this compensates your anger."

Here is again similar offensive remarks and trolling, this time not only against Fedayee, but all Armenian users (notice the highly provocative "do you guys"):

"Do you guys mass mail each other and decide how to "treat" other users?"

"But please do continue writing. Otherwise it'll get boring."

Once again, Ehud Lesar seriously violating WP:CIVILITY and WP:AGF, against Armenian users:

"Or, is it better for you that I am not checked so that you keep repeating the same melody over and over? I think the latter option suits your interests well and that's why you're inactive." 

Such behavior is completely unacceptable in Wikipedia, and requires some sanctions to ensure it will not happen again.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 18:06, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You're stating above I am openly insulting other users, engaging in trolling, and seriously violating teh Wikipedia policies And where would be anything indicating OPENLY insulting? Please bring some examples, other than those lines above which are NOT indicative of anything. Please also, copy and paste your own remarks about Azerbaijanis, your remarks on Azeri users, etc. That would be interesting to compare my discussion posts with yours. --Ehud (talk) 02:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So, you admit that you were insulting sneakily. The examples provided above constitute insults and trolling by any reasonable standard.--TigranTheGreat (talk) 04:42, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Tigran, it is written as clear as you can see above that I am asking for some examples which indicate any intention or actual insult against any Armenian, other than your examples which make no sense. It is understandable that you have no other choice, no other card to use against me and out of desperation, you just try to pull out words from me. Keep trying. --Ehud (talk) 05:26, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Adil, you see why you are banned now? Even under a new username, you just can't stop disrupting. Here I'll add one more: You are so brainwashed by your own ideology, that you don't give yourself a chance to look at the other side of the paper. - Fedayee (talk) 06:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that if there actually is any trolling here, it comes from those users who keep on making baseless accusations of Ehud being a sock of Adil. I would like to specifically draw attention of the admins to the behavior of User:Fedayee, who keeps harassing Ehud, just check his post above mine, where he refers to Ehud as Adil, while he knows perfectly well that those users are unrelated. The comments of Ehud posted here were made in response to such accusations, and he was actually baited to make them and got reported. CU proved that Adil and Ehud are not related:, still harassment of Ehud continues. I would like to ask the admins to put an end to this harassment campaign. Grandmaster (talk) 08:06, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Ehud Lesar was baited here, and consequently sunk his teeth in a little. Please stop baiting him; if you believe Ehud Lesar is a banned user, compile your evidence and submit it to be investigated further. Don't make accusations about sock puppetry until it has been proven otherwise you have unclean hands. John Vandenberg (talk) 13:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Correct accusations of abusive sockpuppetry are normally fairly easy to prove. I suggest collecting evidence at either Suspected sockpuppets or Requests for checkuser. Until then, please follow John V's advice. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 13:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Sure, here you go . I started adding the evidence, I will be adding more depending on how much you request if this is not enough. I am really amazed that no one sees anything in Adil's game. The reason I don't want to add all the evidences at once is that, from experience, I know it won’t even be read. - Fedayee (talk) 02:48, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Good job. Thank God. I am personally requesting administrators on this page to pay immediate attention to the above "evidence" of user Fedayee. Moreover, I am specifically requesting admins on this page to track everything related to my account and announce for bothered users that I was not in Baku or any other location the provided by Fedayee user names can be associated with. These groundless accussations and attacks on my personality, my ethnic background, and my contribution to Wikipedia must end. Thank you (Ehud (talk) 08:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC))


 * Add all the convincing evidence you can find and then tell us to come look. What I see now is not a definitive establishment of sock puppetry. So far, you've established that:
 * Adil has created fake ethnicities for his socks before.
 * Adil can evade checkuser detection.
 * But I want more evidence of behavioral similarity than just making similar reverts. The Geycha and Zangezur stuff does not make sense to me. Picaroon (t) 20:11, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Take another look at his behavior. I think this is a give away: You're free to be either obsessed with or pretty much obviously impressed by him, but please stop dragging me into "being" someone I am not just NOT. . Geycha does not make sense? It does when only Adil out of every Azerbaijani users here claimed this and when the claim is contradicted by the official Azerbaijani map covering the disputed territories. It makes this claim exclusively Adil's. It was also only Adil turning articles into subjects covering Armenian fictional destructions. Like this:, . Or this more recently.


 * Also, I don't think Adil has created fake ethnicities for his socks before is all there is to be. Not ponly did he create different ethnicities, but that in three occasions when Ehud left for a considerable lenght of time other socks reappeared and during those occasions sockpuppetry only ceased when Ehud came back. And didn't you find anything suspicious about the fact that Ehud registered hours after Paul August modified the proposed decision of all the members but him and Artaxiad? This coincides with the confirmation that Adil will be banned.


 * No other person besides Adil lambasted so much about other members being brainwashed by their ideologies like this : You are so brainwashed by your own ideology, that you don't give yourself a chance to look at the other side of the paper. --   Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 23:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Dear Admins, I will be more than happy to help you with any questions/queries you might have on this case. I have not been editing in Wikipedia for several months due to my busy schedule and as soon as I appeared back, obviously my edits (not even edits but my appearance on talk pages) started irritating the above and other involved Armenian users. I see that all the links they have been posting on this and other admin pages are only targeting to relate me to Adil Bagirov just because he is a banned user: for one simple reason - to get me banned. These same users do not have anything else to use against me (violation of any Wikipedia rules).
 * All the claims with my "appearance" on the dates related to one or another banning, warning, edits, socks of any other banned or paroled users are groundless for one simple reason: This is called Wikipedia. Any user comes in at any time he's free and available to help expand Wikipedia. I am sure the same can be applied to Armenian users whose timing of appearance, edits, reverts coincide. Go figure now if they are socks or not. Maybe they should provide their timing on Wikipedia as well. Secondly, the issue of Geycha and Zangezur is NOT exclusive to Adil Bagirov. It is the history of Caucasus available in many libraries in many countries. If a previous user (Adil Bagirov in our case) has provided this specific information on Wikipedia first, that doesn't make any of the next Wikipedia users with the same information Adil Bagirovs or anyone related to him. We all read and write and get sources from somewhere. Let's then connect all Armenian users to the first Armenian who claimed Nagorno-Karabakh to be Armenian on Wikipedia, and let's declare the former to be fake users, shall we? Third, it's your own business of being impressed by Adil Bagirov and his trips to other countries, but I have been a Wikipedia user from one computer at one location. Admins can easily check that.
 * Once again, I am ready to provide the administrators with the requested information so that I am cleared from baseless accussations. (Ehud (talk) 05:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC))

FerryLodge, continued

 * Requests for arbitration/Ferrylodge

I believe FL again has made uncivil comments on talk pages. And this is particularly notable because they occurred while similar concerns were being brought up here. FL is not trying hard to avoid the personal attacks, even when there is this scrutiny over his editing. I bring up two cases: and. The first, FL says "I'm sure if Romney robbed banks with his father, then Qworty would be supporting as much detail as possible." There is no reason to speculate on what another editor would or would not support, especially when it is a hypothetical situation that involves disparaging a public figure. The comment would have been fine if that entire sentence was simply not there. Again, there is no reason to make accusatory statements about other editors on talk pages. The second example should be read completely (or even in context). He links to an inflamatory statement another user said about Odd nature 3 months ago. This is similar to when FL brought up another editor's political party affiliation by linking to off-site content. These are all uncivil things, and should never have occurred on article talk pages. I'm writing this because I know FL will read it, and hopefully he will take it to heart and attempt to change. As I've said over and over this past month. Comment on content, not on users. I apologize that this isn't exactly related to the ArbCom enforcement (I will also note that the comments to Odd nature that happened today were in relation to Roe v. Wade, which is clearly related to abortion, although the article itself is Mitt Romney), but incivility is still a blockable offense, that I ask to be considered by an uninvolved admin. -Andrew c [talk] 22:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I object to Andrew c bringing up these insubstantial matters. Already on December 20 at this page, Andrew c asked “an uninvolved admin to review this case and possibly ban him from Roe v. Wade.”  That request was rejected.  Now Andrew c is back on December 26 with more.


 * Andrew c now raises three cases, which all occurred at the talk page of the article about Mitt Romney, and two of which have absolutely nothing whatseoever to do with abortion or pregnancy (which is the only type of issue addressed by the ArbCom decision in my case)....


 * First, this December 21 talk page comment was completely unrelated to abortion or pregnancy. Andrew c also takes that comment out of context.  I said, “I'm sure if Romney robbed banks with his father, then Qworty would be supporting as much detail as possible. :-)”  Note the smiley face at the end.  No one complained or objected about this humorous comment then, nor during the time period from then until now.  The person who I made the comment to (Qworty) had announced --- with no prompting from me --- that he is not a Republican, and Qworty had also argued at great length that we should insert detail into the Mitt Romney article about Romney's alleged Mormon underwear. My brief comment about robbing banks ought to be viewed in that context.  It was a humorous remark completely unrelated to abortion or pregnancy, and so I do not understand why Andrew c is bringing it up here.


 * Second, Andrew c brings up this December 26 talk page comment which was tangentially related to abortion and pregnancy.  Here is the comment in context.  Andrew c objects to the fact that I linked “to an inflamatory statement another user said about Odd nature 3 months ago.”  The comment to which I linked was an appropriate warning to Odd nature for having harassed me.  I do not know why Odd nature showed up at the Mitt Romney article today to revert me, but I felt it would be appropriate to mention to Odd nature that “I hope we can have an unusually productive discussion here” in view of our past difficulties.  There was nothing uncivil at all.  It is ironic that one of the people accusing me here today can make wild accusations of antisemitism without the slightest repercussion, and yet Andrew c objects to me even suggesting the possibility that a user (Odd nature) may have previously behaved inappropriately toward me, which he most certainly did.


 * Third, Andrew c brings up this December 17 edit in which I referred to another editor's political party affiliation by linking to off-site content.  And again, this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with pregnancy or abortion, so Andrew c has no reason to bring it up here, unless his purpose is to rewrite the ArbCom decision. Please note that the other editor’s user page prominently has a link to the off-site content in question, calling it “my brush with fame.”  So, I was not revealing any secrets.  All I did was  mention parenthetically to Qworty that the other editor is not a Republican, because  I thought Qworty might find that interesting, seeing as how Qworty hadalready mentioned that he himself is not a Republican.  There was nothing uncivil, and I explained the same thing when I was warned about it before.Ferrylodge (talk) 23:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I will address the last item as it involved me: I do not accept this explanation. There were  3 days and over 160 edits to that talk page in between Qworty's comment about himself that he is not a Republican, and Ferrylodge's comment about what the Washington Post article (that he was also featured in) said about my being a Democrat.   It is hardly believable that he thought  at that point in time out of the blue that it would be "interesting" to mention my nominal political affiliation (the article also said that I had not decided who I am supporting in this election) in a comment in which he also  characterized my editing. I was not a party to the discussion in that section of the talk page,  and Qworty wasn't talking about not being a Republican then or there,  yet  Ferrylodge brought me into it saying this:


 * "If we're going to keep this religion section, it ought to go at the end. Other candidates don't have such a section, and this material is not the most important stuff about him. But Tvoz insisted that it be up front, and accused me of trying to bury it (Tvoz is a Democrat by the way)." 


 * In what universe is it believable that this was said just to provide an interesting side comment about my voter registration status? I believe it was a personal attack - it seems clear that it was an insinuation that my so-called "insisting" and "accusation" about the location of this material  was politically motivated. The point was incorrect to boot - I was only one of the people who thought that placement made the most sense in the context of the article - indeed, it was a compromise solution that I helped create and which we reached consensus on to have the religious background section appear  as the second section of the article, which broke the logjam and allowed the full protection of the page to be lifted. This is explained at the end of the section.  This is not the first time that Ferrylodge has made irrelevant and gratuitous personal comments about me, and it is disturbing that this also went on during and now after the arbitration proceeding.  Despite the fact that ArbCom chose to focus only on his tendentious editing of reproduction-related articles  rather than also cautioning him about  his similarly tendentious editing of political articles,  I think it is impossible that they were giving him carte blanche to behave in an uncivil manner on any article or talk page, and personal attacks, no matter how one tries to backpedal from them, are uncivil. Tvoz | talk 03:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Tvoz, no one is supposed to have carte blanche to make uncivil attacks. I deny that I have been uncivil to you, but if you wish to lodge a complaint in that regard, this is not the correct place.  The incident you mention had nothing whatsoever to do with abortion or pregnancy, as specified in the ArbCom decision.


 * Moreover, I hardly think that parenthetically mentioning your party affiliation is a heinous insult. I did not mean to imply that you have any conflict of interest, and I'm sorry that you took offense.


 * Please keep in mind also that you have used the Mitt Romney discussion thread to insinuate that I am engaging in a "campaign" for Romney, and to accuse me of attempting to "bury" material about Romney. Hardly AGF.


 * And it's also ironic that the person who started this section (OrangeMarlin) has a nasty habit of viciously attacking anyone who says a word in my defense, without penalty. He told User B that he couldn't wait to watch User B being fucked, and more recently accused User Evil Spartan of antisemitism.   In what universe is it believable that parenthetically mentioning your party affiliation is even remotely comparable to the type of language used by OrangeMarlin (who incidentally also falsely accused me of being a Christian).


 * I am growing weary of these frivolous requests for ArbCom enforcement. Can we start the new year in a more cordial manner, please?Ferrylodge (talk) 03:26, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * [ec]I didn't say "heinous insult" - I didn't say insult at all, nor do I think it is an insult to be called a Democrat.  I also did not say you suggested a conflict of interest per se - that would be someone who worked for a candidate, or perhaps who openly supported and contributed to one, and neither applies to me so there is no possible COI on my part that you could accuse me of.  What I said was that it was a gratuitous (because I was not in that discussion) personal attack to suggest, as you clearly did, that my editing was biased based on an article off-wiki that said I was a Democrat (a point about me that you raised to the reporter, by the way, according to him, in addition to an incorrect characterization of who you think I am supporting in this election). Yes, I link to the article on my user page, but it bears no relevance to my editing or to an exchange you were having with Qworty.  It stretches believability to say that you were just  letting him know that there was another Democrat editing the article - it's laughable in fact. You were attacking me, and that is what I am responding to here.  You're very good at backpedaling, but that doesn't change the facts, and it's exactly the same thing I and others have raised about you before. It would have been a good outcome of the arbitration if you stopped doing this, whether or not they focussed on your editing of political articles, as I said above. Finally, I didn't open this thread, so the fact that it has nothing to do with reproduction is beside the point - I am being talked about, and it's my right to give my view on this. I did not comment on the rest of the points raised here.   Tvoz | talk 22:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You can write all you want here, Tvoz. It seems to have become an open forum.  But note this:  I did not tell any reporter what your political affiliation was, because I did not know what your political affiliation was.  You told the reporter and the world that you are a Democrat, and yes I'll mention here that you're a Democrat.  It's not an "attack".  What was an "attack" was you using the Mitt Romney discussion thread to insinuate that I am engaging in a "campaign" for Romney, and to accuse me of attempting to "bury" material about Romney.Ferrylodge (talk) 22:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Is there some reason why this section has not been closed? I'd appreciate it. Everyone, it seems, has had an ample opportunity to say everything they wanted to say, and then some.Ferrylodge (talk) 21:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * All that's missing is some kind of acknowledgement from you that aggressively pushing your POV, and edit warring in any form, is decidedly not smart, and that you'll make an effort not to do so in the future. See Thatcher's comments above.  Under the circumstances, and given the restriction already placed on you, it would be wise to voluntarily undertake a 1RR restriction and take things to the talk page, especially if they are as unambiguous as you say.  It is apparent that your edits will cause friction simply because it is you making them, so this should have the effect of removing any appearance of a continuation of the problems that led to your restriction by ArbCom.  Acceptance that you need to moderate your behaviour is, I think, all that's required for non-involved parties to close this and leave everyone be.  Certainly nobody wants to rehash the ArbCom case here.  Guy (Help!) 11:45, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Guy, you can say a million times that I have aggressively pushed a POV, but that does not make it true. I dare say you have no idea what my POV is.  I do not recall encountering you in any article discussions.  I do not recall seeing you present any diffs during this discussion.  If you want to keep piling on here, then why not (GASP!) present some evidence?Ferrylodge (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, all this response says to me is that you are determined to nitpick and not accept that your editing style, combined with your known biases and your past history, makes for a problem. Unless and until you accept that some people will take issue with what you do simply because it is you doing, it, and realise that they have at least some justification in this, per the ArbCom case, I foresee a turbulent time for you. Guy (Help!) 22:04, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the diffs, Guy.Ferrylodge (talk) 22:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Taunting? Not the wisest place for it, this. FeloniousMonk (talk) 03:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Not meant as a taunt. I only mean that if people want to say I'm doing something wrong, then please say where.Ferrylodge (talk) 03:33, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I see the Ferrylodge drama and disruption continues apace, hardly missing a beat, or an opportunity, since this month's RFAR ruling. My question to the committee: How much disruption is the community expected to take? FeloniousMonk (talk) 03:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


 * If the issue is the Fetus article, I hope that it will be noted that Guy/JzG has ultimately agreed that the images that OrangeMarlin deleted (without discussion) are actually acceptable images.Ferrylodge (talk) 03:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


 * And, if the issue is the Mitt Romney article, I hope that it will be noted that, although Odd Nature reverted a huge number of my edits (without discussion), all of those edits have been restored by consensus after discussion.Ferrylodge (talk) 03:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


 * FerryLodge is subject to an Arbcom restriction on matters related to abortion. For all other topics, the normal dispute resolution methods apply and reports here are inappropriate.  If you believe that FerryLodge should be under a broader sanction, you should probably approach Arbcom again, which overturned the previous community ban and imposed a restriction on abortion-related topics only. Thatcher 06:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

ScienceApologist/Martinphi
I think this diff where ScienceApologist says:

And:

Clearly violates his restriction in the recent ArbCom, and he should be blocked. He has made many similar edits recently, but just the one should be enough (see What the bleep do we know.

On this, go see the list of editors he's talking about, if you want proof he's assuming bad faith:











Calls good faith disputes POV pushing and claims it's a conspiracy. 

"Right now you seem to have nothing more than a vague promotional agenda."

Note here that he's dealing with a lot of people who attack QW:







In case that isn't enough, look at these- I believe that all of them are incivility, and add to the pattern. However, some of the individual examples are certainly not block-worthy:

Yawn:



Accuses of dishonesty:



Dismisses offended user as having taken what he said the wrong way, then adds "Caio," since the user has said he's leaving:



"I'm not going to let you insert that spin into the article."



Note here how he uses "Thank you" to mean "deal with it, asshole."

"You cannot impose the goals of your organization onto Wikipedia. Thank you."



Same meaning of "Thank you:"

"Obviously, this person has a conflict of interest in this case and while their concerns are noted, cold fusion is ultimately subject to the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia, not the wishes of the LENR-CANR librarian. Thank you."



In case you're in doubt whether he uses endings like that for incivility: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Parapsychology&diff=171504507&oldid=171504397 Thanks, that's sweet of you. XOXOX ScienceApologist 20:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Parapsychology&diff=172175012&oldid=172174673 I love you all,]

"Hi, the same guy who quick-failed force is making a stink at the talkpage and GAR again. "



"Maybe you're upset that I wasn't involved in the fake "consensus" discussion that you had with yourself, Levine, Anthon01, and a number of other alt-med POV-pushers. You seem to have a very short fuse and have hit upon me as someone you want to take down."



"While there are others involved, Levine tends to act as the main instigator and ring-leader with many of the other alt-med POV-pushers simply parroting his responses back."



"Since the review of QW doesn't mention QW's advocacy of peer-review we cannot link the two. Get it?"



"Usually when Martin doesn't like a series of edits I can tell I'm on to something good."



He must be on to something very good indeed. —— Martinphi   ☎ Ψ Φ —— 05:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I have notified ScienceAplogist of this. Cardamon (talk) 07:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Martinphi, it might be useful to cut that list down to things you think are obvious violations. Your interpretation of "thank you" to mean "deal with it, asshole," is remarkable, given how many times you have had to petition administrators and arbitrators to reinterpret your own similar statements. (Remember the incident where you stated you would actively disrupt Wikipedia, then backtracked via personal pleading on an arbitrator's talk page?) I am clearly 'partial', but this list is really unconvincing to me. Hence, to try to be neutral, my suggestion in the first sentence.  Ante  lan  talk  08:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Martinphi, I think you should consider Antelan's point. Mixing genuinely problematic posts with spurious examples like the one he pointed out might tend to make your case less persuasive. Dlabtot (talk) 08:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * No. First, I never backtracked, that is just Antelan mis-representing me (don't want to make a personal attack here), as he has in I believe 3 ArbComs by now- don't believe it.  And no, Dlabtot, I'm not going to pare down the list (or at least not for that reason)- it is clearly separated from the worst to the less bad (I originally was going to post only the first diff, which is more than enough in my opinion).  Nor am I going to take back the obvious: it is obvious, to any unbiased observer, that when you use "thank you" like that, what you mean is "deal with it [some denigrating term or other]."    Wikipedia should not be such a legalistic place that people overlook the obvious because a dictionary definition might not give you quite the same answer.  To do so is just to give the clever free reign to do destroy the wiki.


 * Actually, that "thank you" is much like the "I love you all" sign-off he used once on the Parapsychology talk page. —— Martinphi   ☎ Ψ Φ —— 08:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd pare this list down, too. Why are you making everyone wade through so much muck? This diff seems apologetic. This one might be a bit terse, but hardly incivil. And after reading through the diffs outside the "not block-worthy" section, it seems a few of them don't seem to be attacking the other editors, anyway, but instead try to discredit others' ideas. It looks to me like you're grasping at straws to get him blocked from editing these articles. -- RG2 10:34, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I would like to comment that neither attacking another editor's arguments, nor criticizing another editor's edit patterns, is by itself a personal attack. Cardamon (talk) 11:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I wish to add for consideration a bad-faith revert comment, with an unfounded accusation of WP:COI, while initiating an editwar on Conversion disorder. Guido den Broeder (talk) 12:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You're one to talk, Guido. I'm not sure why anyone should take your accusations of bad faith seriously if you're not willing to assume a little good faith yourself. -- RG2 13:13, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Right back at you. Guido den Broeder (talk) 13:39, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Huh? -- RG2 13:52, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I lost that assumption somewhere around the time that this character accused me of being an 'advocate of pseudoscientific nonsense'. Guido den Broeder (talk) 13:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that some of the diffs Martinphi provided really didn't need to be added here. However, I also feel there is merit to some of them, such as the first one about "crap" and the questioning the good faith of others. I would also like to that I recently warned SA twice about continued incivility, once on 20 Dec, see User_talk:ScienceApologist, and on 27 Dec, see User_talk:ScienceApologist. In both cases he responded on my talk page and questioned my good faith. For the record, iin both cases I issues these warnings in response to editors asking me for help because they felt SA was being incivil. Since I agreed with them, I issued the warnings. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 15:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

My own warnings:
 * on 20 Dec, link: User_talk:ScienceApologist, diff, "shitty, shitty pseudoscientific garbage"
 * on 27 Dec, link User_talk:ScienceApologist, diff "ulterior agendas"

Some of the links from above that are incivil:
 * on 27 Dec, diff, "how ridiculously fatuous can an argument get?"
 * on 27 Dec, diff, "because they are too stupid to warrant comment."
 * on 30 Dec, diff, "It would be nice if TimidGuy would cut out that crap, but I'm not holding my breath"

Some of the links from above questioning good faith:
 * on 14 Dec, diff, "fake consensus discussion"
 * on 27 Dec, diff, "holding this article hostage"
 * on 30 Dec, diff, "I object to the enfranchisement of more than a few of the people voting..." (meaning some people can't participate?)
 * — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 15:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * And let's not forget that Martinphi is one of the most zealous promoters of fringe and pseudoscience content, has a long history of provoking SA, is absolutely not a neutral party in this dispute, and by saying SA "must be on something good" is as guilty of incivility as SA ever is. I have a problem with at least some of the selective quoting above - for example, "because they are too stupid to warrant comment" is very clearly notaimed at any Wikipedia editor, but at the reliable sources who decline to comment on the pseudoscience and other twaddle in a film that sources describe as pseudoscientific propaganda, nonsense, and "for the completely gullible"; ditto the full quote "How can you narrowly define the "subject" of the article to simply be the movie and nothing else? If we write an article about the theory of relativity, does that mean including a reference to a biography of Einstein is original research? How ridiculously fatuous can an argument get?" - it is not even a straw man, it was genuinely being suggested that the article keep clear of rebuttals of the fallacious arguments and logical disconnects in that film.  These are also somewhat old. "You obviously didn't do a very good job in my estimation, which is why I want you to explain what I consider to be a poorly considered position" is perfectly civil.  A much better result would be for more editors to watchlist these articles and leave SA less isolated in defending NPOV against the advancement of fringe theories and outright pseudoscience.  Guy (Help!) 15:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This particular case is about ScienceApologist, if you have a concerns about Martinphi, please file an enforcement case here. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 15:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I don;t think it is. I think it's about a small coterie of POV-pushers trying to run off one of the major obstacles to them skewing content away from the mainstream. Quite a few of the quotes Martinphi cites above seem reasonable to me, for example the one explaining the addition of the NPOV tag, I think that was a fair assessment of the situation.  Luckily we've now found more sources for the critique and the non-mainstream editors seem to have accepted that it is reasonable to call it, in the words of the American Chemical Society, "pseudoscientific docudrama". Guy (Help!) 16:04, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Some of the edits are indeed not too bad, when considered individually in isolation. For instance, one of the "thank you" quotes might not have made it in.  I assume admins are allowed to take things in context. —— Martinphi    ☎ Ψ Φ —— 21:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Keep in mind that Martinphi himself is under arbcom probation for disruptive editing. If this "throw it against the wall and see what sticks" attempt to damage his adversary doesn't constitute disruptive editing then I don't know what does. He should be blocked accordingly, irrespective of whether any sanctions are placed on SA. Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * My original intent was to use only the first diff. I was advised to use as much evidence as possible.  If you don't like that way of going about things, then at least know that it wan't my idea, though I do think the diffs are evidential in their context. —— Martinphi    ☎ Ψ Φ —— 21:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Please file an enforcement case on Martinphi if you feel it is warranted. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 16:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * No. The arbcom case jointly considered Martinphi and SA; the conduct at question here revolves around interactions between Martinphi and SA. To pretend that we can make a clean division between the two participants is untenable. Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm with Raymond on this. Martinphi's presentation of this request looks to me very much like disruption, at the very least querulousness.  POV-pushing is rampant, and SA is not the one doing it.  Guy (Help!) 16:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Wrong. The diffs are almost entirly not about me and SA. —— Martinphi    ☎ Ψ Φ —— 21:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This case is about SA's incivility and arbcom restrictions, not the merits of the points being made in articles. If Martinphi has been incivil, feel free to list them here. So far, none of you has listed any incivility by Martinphi. I myself will go through Martinphi's recents edits later today. As I do see merit in the point that SA and MP are very intertwined here. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 16:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a good idea. As a point of information, remember that Martinphi's sanction was for disruption rather than incivility. Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I want to be fair to both sides, but I don't have time to look into Martinphi right now. I will do so later today. If anyone wants to post his diffs here that are relevant, I'll surely look at them. — Rlevse  •  Talk  •  —Preceding comment was added at 16:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This page is for arbcom ruling enforcement. It is (for better or worse) not about judging the original or ongoing dispute per se, or who did what, but about enforcing specific decisions. The issues brought here all relate to complex or heated disputes that ended up at arbcom, where conduct was examined, and where specific rulings and requirements were then made. The question here is "did user X visibly breach an arbcom ruling".


 * Even if the request were in bad faith or one-sided (as suggested), the user's conduct is what is at question, not the motive of the bringer of the request. The diffs will speak for themselves, or not. If there are diffs showing SA being uncivil, then he breached a ruling requiring him to be civil. If diffs exist showing a personal attack, then he breached a ruling about personal attacks. If diffs exist showing a bad faith assumption, then he breached a ruling about bad faith. Questions such as "was he provoked" or "how bad was it" may influence how that's handled, but the bottom line is, arbcom rulings and restrictions are not trivial, and are imposed in order to be complied with. There is an expectation that the case having gone all the way to arbcom, blatant breaches of that final ruling will result in the appropriate remedy applying.


 * Finally, to address the side-concerns, relevant restrictions on Martin are likewise serious too. If Martin also breached his rulings, then you might want to retitle this section "SA/Martin", and ask that question of both. If he didn't but his actions were still problematic then you may want to address them separately, or indeed seek extension of the ruling if it was inadequate. The issue here and now is not that SA is wrong to expect a high standard on articles. It is that he was in an arbcom case where it was ruled that his means of doing so, via incivility, attack or failure to give reasonable good faith, was required to cease.


 * FT2 (Talk 16:20, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Everyone keep in mind this is an arb enforcment page, not a dispute resolution page. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 16:28, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Pursuant to the comments above that ask for a simpler complaint: On the What the Bleep talk we were having a civil conversation about the lead in which we were talking directly about the content, not each other. SA chose this opportunity to switch discussion from the actual article and comment that what I say needs to be taken with a grain of salt because I "don't really seem to have that much familiarity with scientific literature". Following that he posted an a new section called "NPOV concerns" and complained that editors are holding the article hostage and that I was apparently one of these editors.

Here it seems that some editors think that it's perfectly reasonable to attack other editors (in my case totally without reason) to discount their opinion on the article. That may be true, we're probably all guilty of it at some time or another, and I can personally take SA repeated demeaning comments. But in the arbitration he wasn't just warned to stop making personal attacks, he was also warned to stop being disruptive. Switching the focus of the conversation off the actual article and onto other editors is disruptive. In the very least we have to stop talking about the article and start defending ourselves. This is especially disruptive when (again in my case) it is totally without merit. He only lumped me in there because I was disagreeing with his argument. At that point I'd barely even done any edits on the article or talk page, much less held it hostage. Making rude comments about others is something a lot of us do periodically, but SA does it all the time. It appears to happen any time he's in a content dispute.

(Assuming that snide, demeaning comments about editors actually are OK:) I don't care if he gets blocked from the article. I don't know if that is completely necessary. But I would appreciate someone directing him to stop being an asshole all the time. -- Nealparr  (talk to me) 17:44, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Please don't let your frustration at someone else's behavior goad you into uncivil behavior of your own. Dlabtot (talk) 18:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I would ask the administrators evaluating this complaint take a good look at SA's RfC at Talk:What_the_Bleep_Do_We_Know!? and his responses to those who have commented on that RfC. I would submit that this is disruptive behavior. Dlabtot (talk) 18:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Pls provide diffs and/or quotes. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 18:26, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry; there are so many that I don't think I'm up for the task. The point is that he argued with and harangued every RfC respondent who disagreed with him. I think this is disruptive to the RfC process. If it's necessary for me to provide diffs for my comment to be considered then I humbly withdraw my comment. Dlabtot (talk) 18:38, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You don't need to withdraw it, but diffs make it much easier to work the case. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 19:09, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Should we put a notice at the top of this page that "this is not part of the Wikipedia dispute escalation process?" I'd have been tempted to say "dispute resolution"  but the lack of any attempts to resolve the dispute seems to leave that out of the running. Guy (Help!) 18:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Uh, re "the lack of any attempts to resolve the dispute seems to leave that out of the running" I happen to be looking at edits from SA and MP right now. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 19:09, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure. And the two of them have not shown any attempt to resolve their disputes, largely because their disputes arise from irreconcilable philosophical differences. SA gets away with slightly more because he is, in every case I've seen, supporting the mainstream view.  MP, on the other hand, has in recent times become a master at querulousness.  The problem with SA would, IMO, not exist to any meaningful degree were it not for the ever-zealous promotion of fringe nonsense by various parties. Guy (Help!) 19:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I really don't care much, but I think that is a personal attack if you don't provide diffs. —— Martinphi   ☎ Ψ Φ —— 21:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Has this not struck anyone else as exceedingly ironic: Martinphi interprets SA's "thank you" to mean "deal with it, asshole," stating that it is "obvious to any unbiased observer," and further, that "Wikipedia should not be such a legalistic place that people overlook the obvious..." Immediately after that interpretation bit, he says "that is just Antelan mis-representing me (don't want to make a personal attack here)." I am compelled to point out that there is an even more obvious interpretation of that statement - when you say that you have avoided making a personal attack, the attack is implied. The parenthetical sort of tips you off to the synonym for "misrepresenting" that he was thinking about. In the end, my point is that Martinphi's history with SA seems to make his actions abhorrent to Martinphi, while Martinphi participates in the exact same behavior that he dislikes from SA. I really don't think there's anything meritorious here beyond Martinphi's constant goading of SA. Ante lan  talk  19:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * In other words, Antelan, since you have just asked specifically, I didn't want to accuse you of being a liar, because that would have been to assume that you knew that you were not telling the truth. Thus, it would have been a violation of AGF, and a PA in calling you a liar.  While I did think what you said mis-represented me (though you did have some point), I didn't want to go over the edge into a personal attack.


 * Now if you have some actual diffs which say that I engage in the same behavior problematic behavior as SA, please present them here. I'm sure you could come up with something I did wrong, but it would not show such a consistent and deep pattern.  —— Martinphi    ☎ Ψ Φ —— 21:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * And I don't really want to accuse you of lying and grasping at straws and misinterpreting dozens of diffs to see what sticks so you can give someone you disagree with another strike on his block log, as that would be "a violation of AGF, and a PA," and, you know, I don't want to go over the edge ...
 * Yeesh. Stop doing that. -- RG2 22:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Apply enforcement to both
These edits show breach of the ruling. Specifically,, , show incivility and , ,  do not assume good faith. I have therefore applied the enforcement and blocked User:ScienceApologist (SA) for 72 hours.

I have also looked at the wider dispute to see why SA acted this way and noticed User:Martinphi (MP) also breached his ruling. In filing this report, MP included several diffs that did not show incivility or lack of AGF by SA, such as, which MP interpreted as "deal with it, asshole"; and also this was not needed. There is also the incident where User:Thatcher warned MP about provoking SA on, see (this diff). Therefore, I have also blocked MP for 72 hours.

Regardless of the merits of their positions, both sides have an arbcom ruling that this is not the way to go about them and the community has deemed "you just dont do it that way". I beseech both SA and MP to work to resolve their diffences in a civil and non-provocative manner. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 22:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)