Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive247

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Sir Joseph
''Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).''


 * Appealing user : – Sir Joseph (talk) 22:22, 22 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Sanction being appealed : 72 Hour Block for 1rr Violation


 * Administrator imposing the sanction :


 * Notification of that administrator : The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by Sir Joseph
I am requesting an appeal (I do have other reason, but I am requesting mainly on legal reasons, since this is AE and AE is supposed to be 100% legal) I did not realize this at first, but the AE request itself was invalid and should have been dismissed. This is the AE action brought against me,. However, if you look at the section "If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness_and_alerts)" Note the text Supply evidence that the user is aware of them, Nableezy only showed that there was an edit notice in place. If you go to AC/DS you will see that while there are ADDITIONAL requirements for page restrictions, there are requirements for alerting that Nableezy did not do or highlight which makes this AE action invalid. This is from: Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions No editor may be sanctioned unless they are aware that discretionary sanctions are in force for the area of conflict. An editor is aware if: There are additional requirements in place when sanctioning editors for breaching page restrictions. Therefore for the above reasons, I humbly submit my appeal, mainly on this specific issue. The only other issue I will bring up is that at the point of the block, the block was punitive, not preventative, and while an admin can take unilateral action and block, at the specific point in time, the edit was well over a day old and some admins were not in favor of a block and I think that even if a block was placed, a 72 hour block was far too long for a block.
 * 1) They were mentioned by name in the applicable Final Decision; or
 * 2) They have ever been sanctioned within the area of conflict (and at least one of such sanctions has not been successfully appealed); or
 * 3) In the last twelve months, the editor has given and/or received an alert for the area of conflict; or
 * 4) In the last twelve months, the editor has participated in any process about the area of conflict at arbitration requests or arbitration enforcement; or
 * 5) In the last twelve months, the editor has successfully appealed all their own sanctions relating to the area of conflict.

Statement by Nableezy
I opened the request. To the point of the appeal, Sir Joseph was notified of the discretionary sanctions within the past 12 months. Making that purely wikilawyering. An arbitration block does not even require an AE thread. Enforcing a page level restriction requires that the user be aware of the sanctions and an edit-notice. All it would take for Sir Joseph to get unblocked would be an acknowledgement that he did in fact violate the 1RR and a promise to abide by it in the future. But no, he wikilawyered around the revert, or attempted to, and is wikilawerying over the block now.  nableezy  - 00:00, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Sir Joseph

 * Endorse block per Nableezy From what I've seen, this is just further disruption from a disruptive user who seems, to me, to enjoy arguing. (He posted a related thread about Volunteer Marek but provided no dif's. His energy and eloquence would have been better spent at the AE thread that lead to the block.) Simply put, he violated 1RR, knew better, was sanctioned (minimally) and has no sound basis to be unblocked or to appeal the AE action. At risk of being accused of casting aspersions, my conclusion from my observations is his wikilawyering is for its own sake and vacant of any substance. Dloh cier ekim    (talk) 00:16, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Were it within my power to extend the block, I would do so. Ordinarily, such would be unseemly and excessive. But as blocks are preventative, and as appealant shows no indication of accepting that their behavior is/was inappropriate, and in fact continues to "game the system" disruptively and frivolously, a block extension would be warranted. Dloh cier ekim    (talk) 03:17, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Endorse. Even if the appeal were not dishonest (which Nableezy's evidence shows it to be), it would still be Wikilawyering and arguably a WP:NOTTHEM violation. Guy (Help!) 00:27, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Sir Joseph

 * This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.


 * Decline. Sir Joseph was aware that the area is under discretionary sanctions, per this alert, but is appealing on the ground that Nableezy failed to supply evidence that he was aware. I. e., Nableezy didn't supply the link to the DS alert which I have just given. Wikilawyering was one the issues that led to the sanction, and here's some more of it. You don't often see it this crude. Bishonen &#124; talk 01:00, 23 February 2019 (UTC).
 * Decline. If anything, this appeal makes me want to lengthen the block, but I will resist that temptation. Vanamonde (Talk) 01:23, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I sympathize. It isn't altogether out of our power: when I spoke of resisting the temptation I was simply making a point, but although an individual administrator cannot modify an AE action, we can certainly modify it if we have consensus to do so here. At the moment I am of the opinion that a "decline with prejudice" close to this appeal should be enough of a reminder to Joseph, but I'm not opposed to an extension, either. Vanamonde (Talk) 03:21, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Decline, and I wouldn't mind lengthening the block either. As per WP:AC/DS, Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied. The filing of this wikilawyering appeal seems to constitute "fresh misconduct" to me. T. Canens (talk) 04:38, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm closing this request because there is consensus that the appeal is frivolous. I'm also extending the block duration to one week because it is clear, judging by this appeal, that a 72 hour block is not sufficient to deter Sir Joseph from disruption.  Sandstein   07:30, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

‎Sangdeboeuf
''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''

Request concerning ‎Sangdeboeuf

 * User who is submitting this request for enforcement : 08:29, 23 February 2019 (UTC)


 * User against whom enforcement is requested :


 * Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2, page specifically placed under 1RR by Doug Weller (Arbitration enforcement log)


 * Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it :


 * 1) 06:01, 20 February 2019 - requesting Sir Joseph to self-revert on same article and same content - indicating awareness for 1RR on the article.
 * 2) 00:10, 23 February 2019 - revert of IP. Note use of "vandal" in edit summary - the IP made a single contribution, and it does not appear to meet the standards of vandalism in removing questionable BLP content.
 * 3) 00:11, 23 February 2019 - Revert of logged in user. Note Sangdeboeuf is aware they are reverting (removing, restoring).
 * 4) 05:01, 23 February 2019 - revert2 of logged in user - User is aware this is a revert as they used the rollback button.
 * 5) 06:44, 23 February 2019 - requested to self revert.
 * 6) 07:58, 23 February 2019 + 07:54, 23 February 2019 + 08:01, 23 February 2019 - Wikilawyery (and a wrong one) response claiming no vio.


 * Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any :


 * If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS):

12:40, 2 December 2018 - notified of AP2.


 * Additional comments by editor filing complaint :

Page is under AP2, not ARBPIA. Furthermore the content in question (for Trump and Omar) regards accusations of antisemitism towards US Jews, not Israel - making the relation to the conflict, even broadly, a stretch. Furthermore, the WP:ARBPIA3 applies only to "any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict." - this is a page level, not an edit level, restriction - and a freshman US congresswoman being "reasonably construed" seems unlikely - recently discussed at Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment (with a rather clear arb consensus, it would seem, that the current restriction doesn't apply and some discussion on whether it is worth extending it). Thus, the claim that this was made to enforce ARBPIA3 should be dismissed as without merit.
 * Addendum - the 110 edits and 44k wall of text on the talk page by Sangdeboeuf all or mostly around this recent issue is not helpful for reaching consensus.Icewhiz (talk) 09:08, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Nothing appears in Arbitration enforcement log about a special 500/30 revert exemption - I looked - it is a standard AP2 1rr DS (which exempts IPs, not logged in users) - old posts on the talk page are not where DSes should be looked for . ARCA on this specific article seems to indicate 500/30 does not apply. - ‎Sangdeboeuf was requested to self revert. They still have not, even after your response. They also called the IP behind this edit a "vandal" - a personal attack - that they did not retract below. Sangdeboeuf made two non-consecutive reverts to logged in users + a PA vs. the IP.Icewhiz (talk) 04:04, 24 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested :

notified

Discussion concerning Sangdeboeuf
''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''

Statement by Sangdeboeuf
WP:A/I/PIA states that it applies to "any pages and edits that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict". The non-autoconfirmed user that I reverted had removed "Israeli–Palestinian conflict" from a section heading; the first sentence under the heading read, "During her time in the Minnesota legislature, Omar was critical of the Israeli government and opposed a law intended to restrict the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement." I'm a bit mystified as to how this could be construed as unrelated to the Arab–Israeli conflict.

I admit that I didn't read the edit notice carefully enough; I assumed it was there because of the Israel–Palestine issue. I could have waited for the edit to be reviewed under WP:ECP, but I wasn't sure the reviewer would notice the general prohibition on edits related to Israel–Palestine. If uninvolved admins believe this was a breach of 1RR, I will happily self-revert. Since added 1RR here, perhaps they could clarify whether it supersedes the older exemption for reverts to enforce the 30/500 prohibition as mentioned here?

apparently thinks my talk page contributions are disruptive based on their comments above, which is nonsense, unless having a lot to say on the talk page is a sanctionable offense. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:00, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note that diffs #2 & #3 in the above request are consecutive edits, so count as a single revert. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:05, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The "vandal" I referred to in one of those diffs left no edit summary when removing text, and certainly did not suggest they were acting based on BLP, including on the talk page. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:55, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * It was a misunderstanding, though not just because of what's in the article. DW wrote on the talk page: "IPs and editors with less than 30 days and 500 edits may not edit material relating to the Arab-Israeli dispute ... This is part of the discretionary sanctions regime at WP:ARBPIA. Such edits can be reverted without counting as ordinary reverts." This is still what it says, which is why I requested clarification above. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:31, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I have self-reverted here. Note that this is already the topic of discussion at Talk:Ilhan Omar, where consensus was against using the phrase "Anti-Semitism" as a subheader. Now it's a level two header, which is worse. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 04:41, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by My very best wishes
The edit by Sangdeboeuf was made in a section of the page entitled "Israeli–Palestinian conflict". So, it can be reasonably viewed as covered by WP:ARBPIA. And WP:ARBPIA does tell "any pages and edits". Arbcom is debating this right now - see here. So, I have to agree with Sangdeboeuf: this is not a 1RR violation. Saying that, I do not agree with his/her edit, but that belongs to content disagreements. My very best wishes (talk) 00:25, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Zero0000
Debate between US politicians, especially within the US Congress, about the Israel-Palestinian conflict is very much part of that conflict. It isn't just people just voicing opinions either, because the US is a party to the conflict and events at home have a real effect on the progress of the conflict. There are countless reliable sources that treat this relationship in depth. So I believe you are mistaken. Zerotalk 03:38, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Result concerning Sangdeboeuf

 * This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.


 * I do not view this page as being under the Arab-Israeli conflict sanctions (and I would decline an ECP request if it were made). A Western Politician simply having views on the conflict does not make them reasonably part of the conflict, even if they're known for them. There are plenty of American politicians who have strong views on this matter, and we never count any of them as being part of the conflict. That being said, I'm willing to close this without any formal action because I agree that it is a reasonable misunderstanding. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:41, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Also, clarify since I only removed part of what I was planning on saying, but its a contentious area and I don't want my sloppy copy-editing taken out of context: I think that a lot of the focus on this is a part ARBPIA is because she's visibly Muslim, and that plays a part in the news coverage, because it is a region where the ethno-religious tensions are high. This hasn't been brought up here, but I do think its something that needs to be addressed as a sort of elephant in the room.That being said, I don't think being a Muslim American politician with views on the conflict makes that politician part of it under our rules anymore than an Evangelical Christian congressman who wants all of Israel and the Palestinian territories to be part of the State of Israel because it will speed up the end of the world. The question is whether or not she can reasonably be considered part of the conflict. I do not think she or any other current member of the United States Congress can, so the exemption should not apply to reverting 500/30 violations, but at this stage, we should just close this with "be more careful and when in doubt, don't revert." TonyBallioni (talk) 03:01, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * if you can find me any other sitting member of the United States Congress that we have under ECP because of their views on the Arab-Israeli conflict, I may be willing to reconsider, but even then, I would first want to consider removing the ECP. There is no doubt that American politicians have contributed to the conflict, but our question under ARBPIA is whether or not they can be reasonably construed (not broadly) as being part of it. I do not think being a member of the US Congress who has attracted coverage because of statements involving Israel is enough to make her a part of the conflict. That is American political drama, and would fall under ARBAP2, not ARBPIA in my view. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:45, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * , thanks for pointing this out. This might be one of the rare instances I disagree with Doug, but let's see what other admins say. Regardless, I don't support sanctioning at this time because I agree you were acting in good faith and that the situation was unclear. When the law is unclear, there is no law, is a good axiom in general, and I think it applies here. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:31, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * as this exact article is being debated at ARCA now and other than one arb, the vibe I'm getting is that they agree with me it probably isn't under ARBPIA, would you be willing to self-revert and take it to the talk page?, yes, I understand, but the confusion as to if this is part of ARBPIA (where there is an exemption for reverting IPs...) is something they may have relied on in good faith, especially considering a then-arb posted on the talk page saying it was part of it. I generally only like sanctioning people if its clear they should have known better, and right now, I can't say that it is clear Sangdeboeuf should have known better. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:17, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Smeagol 17
''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''

Request concerning Smeagol 17

 * User who is submitting this request for enforcement : 12:11, 21 February 2019 (UTC)


 * User against whom enforcement is requested :

1RR
 * Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:GS/ISIL :


 * Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it :


 * 1) Revert 1: 09:40, 21 February 2019, Revert 2: 11:03, 21 February 2019 - 1RR Violation after recent warning
 * 2) Revert 1: 15:31, 19 February 2019, Revert 2: 07:36, 20 February 2019 - 1RR Violation after recent warning
 * 3) Revert 1: 08:44, February 18, 2019, Revert 2: 09:29, February 18, 2019 - 1RR Violation. Warning


 * Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any :


 * If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS):


 * Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, see the system log linked to above.
 * Gave an alert about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on April 27, 2018


 * Additional comments by editor filing complaint :
 * Smeagol 17's deceptive response is not comforting.- MrX 🖋 14:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I will copy this request to ANI. For future reference, where is the enforcement process for community authorized sanctions documented? I would have thought here or here, but for some reason, it is not.- MrX 🖋 19:47, 24 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested :

Discussion concerning Smeagol 17
''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''

Statement by Smeagol 17
I corrected wrong tense and accepted phrasing in the article, this was reverted without explanation. I used my once per day revert with explanation. What is a problem?Smeagol 17 (talk) 14:27, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * If my correction was formally uacceptable, then I am sorry. When given warning abot similar (more serious) matter in this article, I complied. If someone told me that this minor correction was also unacceptable, despite ambiguosnes about what constitutes a revert? I would have complied also. Smeagol 17 (talk) 14:53, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * About temporary self revert. Is it gaming the rules? I though they were working as intended. (I did it after reciving a warning, so I self-reverted for a day) Or what then is the point of allowing one revert a day?Smeagol 17 (talk) 17:10, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Maybe I was taking this issue too casually. But if you look for example here (end of tread) you will see that some are taking to editing even small wording issues on this topic with openly less then encyclopedic motives. Given that, I used formal rights to improve (in my view) the article. Honestly? I throught my explanation in the edit comment would be enough for such a minor (and close to consensus (in my view)) issue, without creating a talk topic (at least for third-party onlookers). I was wrong in this, as it often happened with such issues. Smeagol 17 (talk) 15:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * So, this situation has taken an a bit unexpected (to me) turn (re: User:Dan the Plumber). So what happens now? Smeagol 17 (talk) 15:16, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Mr rnddude
The first two "revert 1"'s are ... in what world is copy-editing (first one) and expanding the sentence (second one) considered to be "reverting"? As to the third "revert 1" diff, yes I think that actually constitutes a "first revert". Mr rnddude (talk) 14:58, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Fitzcarmalan
Three things:
 * As it turns out, the edits that are being "reverted" were those of a sockpuppet of Sayerslle.
 * Even if Dan wasn't a sock, replacing "regime" with "government" is without doubt an improvement to the article. I don't even know who Smeagol is, but blocking them for doing so is a pretty fucked up thing to do (so is censoring reporting them for that "violating 1RR").
 * I distinctly recall you disregarding an AE request once because community sanctions (and I quote) "are not a matter for enforcement through the AE process". If that is the case, then will you kindly inform your colleagues ( and ) that they are in the wrong here? Because they sure as hell are. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 18:58, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Result concerning Smeagol 17

 * This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.


 * While I agree "Syrian government" is more neutral than "Assad regime", this is what talk pages are for. I note one of these breaches was followed by a "temporary self-revert" which was re-reverted a day later, which smacks of gaming the 1RR rule. The other two seem to be clear 1RR breaches and as a warning was previously issued, a short block is probably necessary.  A look at the editing history of that article shows some tag team reverting by various editors which may warrant looking into. Fish +Karate  16:04, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Perhaps gaming was too strong a term, but making the second revert, undoing yourself, and then after a bunch of intervening edits by other editors, remaking the same edit just outside the 24 hour window for 1RR is not really conducive to collaborative editing. The one-revert-a-day rule, as with the three-reverts-a-day rule on standard articles, is not an entitlement.  You don't have to make sure you get your one revert in a day.  The revert rules are an arbitrary mechanism to stop edit warring, with the intent to nudge people into editing collaboratively; ideally you should be discussing, challenging, asking questions, making your case, reviewing sources, compromising, and so on - all the things that mean being a good, collaborative editor - on the article talk page. You should not be clock-watching to see when you can make another revert.  I hope the short block you're likely to get gives you a chance to go read a few talk pages and learn a that there is a better, less stressful, more enjoyable way to do things. Fish +Karate  11:02, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Looks like this Smeagol 17 has been working this particular revert (Assad ==> Syrian) for several days so any "I've been above board about my motives" arguments is disingenuous at best. A short block is in order. --regentspark (comment) 15:00, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Fitzcarmalan is correct that this is not an AE matter, because the sanction that is to be enforced is a community sanction. This request should have been made (and can still be moved to) WP:ANI.  Sandstein   19:31, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Highpeaks35
''This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.''

Request concerning Highpeaks35

 * User who is submitting this request for enforcement : 23:10, 24 February 2019 (UTC)


 * User against whom enforcement is requested :
 * Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Requests_for_arbitration/India-Pakistan :

I'll keep this as brief as possible. Highpeaks35 has been around just over a year, and has made 7000-odd mostly gnome-ish edits, to articles broadly associated with the history and culture of South Asia. Frequently, though presented as minor corrections, these edits have NPOV implications (they may or may not be violations of NPOV, but they do alter the POV of an article); examples include the following (diff, diff, diff). There are a number of others, among which the unifying pattern is a tendency to add "Indian", "Indian subcontinent", or "Hindu", as descriptors for specific objects and customs.

This, in and of itself, is concerning, as it appears to be subtle POV-pushing concealed by laconic and misleading edit-summaries. However, Highpeaks has also been in several conflicts, prominently with, many of which derive from the type of edits described above, including at Talk:India (and its archives, and ), Talk:Indus_Valley_Civilisation, and Talk:Pilaf. In each case, again, Highpeaks appears to be attempting to portray specific cultural heritage as "Indian" (such as at the article about Pilaf), or alternatively to be advancing the argument that bits of history favorable to "Hindus" have been left out (at the article about India).

Furthermore, in many of these situations, Highpeaks has veered into original research (diff (see their conversatin with SmokeyJoe), diff (no source was provided to back this up)). He has portrayed scholarly consensus as supporting his view when it obviously didn't (diff). He has also engaged in personal attacks (diff, diff), which he has refused to strike, displaying while doing so a certain inability to understand the underlying issues (diff).

In sum, Highpeaks has for several months now demonstrated an inability to use sources with the rigor necessary for a contentious topic, and an inability to work collaboratively, which required administrative intervention. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:10, 24 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any : User has not been previously sanctioned.

notified in March 2018.
 * If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS):


 * Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested : notified.

Discussion concerning Highpeaks35
''Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.''

Statement by Highpeaks35
I made my position clear, FF called my work “Hindu garbage.” Used “skin tone” where skin had no impact on the conversation. I am hurt and saddened that those language and content is being taken lightly from this user. This whole issue comes up when FF decides to come to my talk page, which I informed him not to do. I am not comfortable with him on my talk page, as his language and tone is not acceptable to me. He is usually degrading and boarderline insulting almost always (this is not just me, he has done it with other editors). (Highpeaks35 (talk) 23:40, 24 February 2019 (UTC))

Statement by Beyond My Ken
User:Highpeaks35 to User:Fowler&fowler on the former's talk page:


 * In my POV, you are a racist and white supremaist of the worst kind. Using your influence and privilege to be disrespectful, arrogant, calling me and my work “Hindu garbage”, making fun of Indian women and their skin color, etc.

This is the same discussion referenced above. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:06, 25 February 2019 (UTC)


 * WP:AC/DS Says, in part: "Within the area of conflict, editors are expected to...:2. comply with all applicable policies and guidelines; 3. follow editorial and behavioural best practice;" The standard for civility in a discretionary sanctioned subject area is supposed to be higher than normal, regardless of where discussion takes place. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:55, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Fowler&fowler
I became aware of on 1 January 2019, when, upon returning to Wikipedia after a long vacation, I discovered he had made a large number of unwarranted edits in the FA India. The following day, he made a post on my user talk page, which seemed to be taunting me. Said he, "Wait... Above you stated: "I will no longer be working on India-related topics." Change of heart? Missing edit-warring on India related topics with you Eurocentric view?" (See diff.) Although I did think it was odd that a total stranger was being so familiar, I did not respond.

Meanwhile, Highpeaks had also just added many images to India (See diff)  Upon being challenged, he created sections in Talk:India, proposing in each section different images for inclusion in the article. (See diff) In particular, in the "Clothing" section there seemed to be gratuitous use of "Hindu," (or implication of Hindu) in the description of  attire that had been introduced into India in medieval times by Muslims from Central Asia. I said so in my reply, using the expression "Hindu garbage," which I regretted later, to mean irrelevant, somewhat provocative, use of "Hindu" to assert cultural ownership of apparel that by bragging rights belonged to the Muslims of India, especially an India in which the relations between Hindus and Muslims have been fraught. (See diff.) Accusing me of racism, Highpeaks35 took me to ANI, where I apologized; see here)

Highpeaks has since been feigning feeling hurt, assuming victimhood, but also insulting me across WP pages (see one example). Ultimately though, and more insidiously, Highpeaks35 has continued to make his POV edits of Hindu-, or Hindu-nationalist, or Hindutva, or Indian-nationalist promotion. One manner in which he has done this is to change "South Asia," "Pakistan," "Sri Lanka," or "Nepal" to "Indian subcontinent." (There are over 400 such edits with edit summary, "improve accuracy," in several hundred WP pages (see here) The expression "Indian subcontinent,"  as old WP India hands will know,  is preferred by many India-POV editors, for it puts the brand of India on all the countries in India's neighborhood.   Fixing these pages will take time.  Highpeaks35 obviously needs some kind of restriction.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  06:54, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Sitush
I don't have much time for this place at the moment but there is definitely something odd going on with Highpeaks35, aside from the extreme and unwarranted attacks noted above which they seem to be convinced do not need to be retracted. They have argued in this thread that this magazine article explains the justification for preferring the use of the phrase Indian subcontinent over other uses but, as I indicated in the thread, that replacement is often relatively imprecise and also point-y. I've not been active for considerable periods when they have been making changes, and a lot of their changes have been to aspects of Indian culture (such as foodstuffs) where I generally have little involvement, but I have a strong gut feeling that this all forms a part of some sort of Hindu nationalist agenda. I would have to trawl through an awful lot of my edits to find other examples of their inappropriate references to Indian subcontinent but they do exist. - Sitush (talk) 09:39, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Result concerning Highpeaks35

 * This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.


 * I've blocked for a week per BMK's diffs. Such personal attacks are unacceptable anywhere, but especially within DS areas. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:31, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Atsme
''Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).''


 * Appealing user : – Atsme ✍🏻📧 20:05, 20 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Sanction being appealed : Indef topic ban from AP2 broadly construed imposed at the beginning of this ARCA request in June 2018, and the first appeal in August 2018 that I withdrew in 24 hrs.


 * Administrator imposing the sanction :


 * Notification of that administrator : Diff

Statement by Atsme
I’m here to appeal my June 2018 AP2 indef T-ban that was imposed on me by Bishonen at ARCA independently of the case that was filed, noting that I filed a 1st appeal in Aug 2018 and withdrew it within approx 24 hrs with an ArbCom restriction of 6 mos before I could appeal again. The 6 mos. restriction has expired.

Over the past few months, I throttled down my editing to focus on family and RL demands, but also managed to devote some private time to reflect on my contributions in the AP2 topic area. I will say that it isn't easy to see oneself objectively but I did try and feel that I’ve succeeded as a result of the time I spent with family and friends who mercilessly indulged me in conversations regarding one of the least favorite topics people want to discuss over the holidays...that being the topic area of this appeal. It was the best thing that could’ve happened as it taught me how to better manage the emotional triggers that topic alone has a tendency to create. It certainly led me to a better understanding of the highly contentious AP2 topic area. More importantly, I’ve learned that the best way to avoid drama in political discussions is to simply stop contributing and walk away.

In retrospect, I regret the occasions I strayed from my customary collegial behavior during RfCs and consensus required discussions in the AP2 topic area. I don’t have such issues when editing in other topic areas so I used the latter to gage my behavior in AP2. I now see the biggest problem was my overzealousness to win the debates and gain consensus, showing little consideration to opposing views. The times my position did gain consensus were overshadowed by the inappropriateness of my persistence, and for that I apologize with a promise that it will never happen again. '''I made a New Year's resolution that if I ever find myself participating in the AP2 topic area again I will stay on point, present my case with civility while keeping brevity in mind, will answer questions if asked and will maintain my customary polite demeaner at all times. If I happen to be notified of an RfC, I will simply cast my iVote, state why, and move on to other areas. I have also read the essays WP:WORLDSEND, WP:DGAF, and WP:LETITGO and have taken them to heart.'''

In closing, I will add that I never before realized how intertwined politics is in our everyday lives, or that such a broad t-ban would be so restrictive to my normal editing activities, particularly when working at AfC and NPP. I also became overly cautious and chose to deny requests for copy editing and lead improvement if I saw even a hint of a potential political undertow in the articles. I did not under any circumstances want to inadvertently violate my t-ban. It has been a heavy burden to carry, and I do hope the decision here will weigh in my favor so I can return to my normal editing activity. Atsme ✍🏻📧 20:05, 20 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Floq - allegations of specific misconduct without diffs are difficult to address but I understand that going back to find evidence is tedious work, and as an admin you already have a lot on your plate. My appeal is somewhat broad in scope as I believe the crux of my behavior is what led to other behaviors. If it will help, I once copied all the diffs presented against me by MrX and addressed them at User talk:Atsme/RVW back in August in preparation of my 1st appeal. Please select the specific diffs you feel are not covered in my current appeal and I will be happy to address them individually. With regards to your questions about Bishonen, I believe the word I used was bias not hate, and if I did use hate, I apologize, it was totally out of character. With all due respect, I don't think it is appropriate for me to respond directly to that part of your question because I feel it is irrelevant to my appeal in that it has nothing to do with my ability to edit in the AP2 topic area. However, if it will help put your mind at ease, I will say that I hold no animosity toward anyone, regardless of the situation. In fact, I have defended two other editors at AE and/or ANI, and, who have consistently been opponents in the AP2 topic area. We have maintained a collegial association as editors despite our disagreements. I have kept two diffs from other editors because their comments were unsolicited and I treasure them to this day. Hopefully they will serve to support my position as they are relevent to behavior: 10-26-2018 by an admin, and 03-14-2016 by a user I once filed against at AN/I and now hold in high regard. Sidenote: I am nopinging to avoid the appearance of canvassing. Atsme ✍🏻📧 16:03, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Floq - this appeal is about my promise to not partake in TE, broadly construed. This is not about Bishonen - she was simply the enforcing admin. If you have an issue with anything I've said related to her, please take it to AN. It does not belong here. This venue is AE regarding editing behavior where DS have been imposed. Thank you. Atsme ✍🏻📧 23:45, 21 February 2019 (UTC)


 * AWilley - please read my response to Floq. Provide the diffs that have raised your concern, otherwise I cannot provide an appropriate answer without knowing exactly to what you are referring. I need specifics, please. The allegations against me are compiled in the link I provided to Floq above - you can pick the ones you feel I need to address. Without diffs to support a specific allegation, we are treading awfully close to aspersions. The diffs used as evidence against me in my June t-ban are there for the choosing, and my explanations are there as well. I don't recall ever being the editor you described below. While my editing was tendentious, I have never been one to spew nonsense, and will never be that person, unless  is indicated. I will admit that on a few occasions my humor was sarcastic but we all indulged from time to time. Since my t-ban was imposed, the following discussions have emerged: here and here, so it isn't an issue that is unique to my concerns. Read Masem's statement again as it describes the primary issue well. As for the comments about AP2 becoming a quieter topic area, doesn't that customarily hold true when most of the opposition is eliminated and the bulk of the editing is done by like-minded individuals? Have you considered that since your attempt to impose Special DS on SPECIFICO, he/she has not edited in that topic area since? Others have been on and off. Please don't forget that there have been a substantial number of editors t-banned since June 2018, not just me. Bishonen acknowledged that in her statement. Clarified here 14:38, 27 February 2019 (UTC) Was it really necessary for you to make such a claim without providing factual information with the numbers to support it? Atsme ✍🏻📧 21:39, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * It was very disheartening to read your response. In your 1st diff, the source is not black listed and can be used with caution, but I took it one step further by adding NYTimes as a source for verification per the diff you provided. Did you not read the diff? There was no error on my part. The 2nd & 3rd diffs you included below - Breitbart which was cherrypicked from an WP:RSN discussion, not from an AP2 article rather it was about something Ben Shapiro had said. The #2 diff was also at RSN. If you had read my comment you would have seen "Editors have to exercise a bit more caution than before when it comes to verifying any publication that's considered a "news source". Bait-click headlines and fallacious content are rampant, and none of them are immune." The Daily Wire and Red State diffs you included were in a question I asked on the Sean Hannity TP regarding edits by an IP - "Can we use Daily Wire which explains the crux of what IP207 is saying?", so again, my references to those sources were taken out of context. Nothing I've said in my appeal has been disengenuous. What you provided as evidence to discredit me regarding sources substantiated nothing that belongs in this appeal, and none of it can be related to disruptive editing which further explains why I did not include it. You have your opinion, AWilley, and there is nothing I can do to change that if you're not going to actually read the diffs in context, but as an admin, you are obligated to at least present the facts correctly. I cannot fix problems that don't exist and if I'm to be blamed for doing things I didn't do, you shouldn't be disappointed if I refuse to apologize for it. I identified the problem that existed regarding my t-ban and Masem's statement helped to validate it. It appears that whether or not I respond to each allegation made by involved editors/admins or choose to ignore them, I will be condemned either way as what Floq just demonstrated - damned if I do - damned if I don't. At least I've corrected the misinformation and properly stated facts, so if I'm to be punished for that, then so be it. I've done the best I can do. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 01:13, 22 February 2019 (UTC)


 * regentspark - I feel that your question relating to Bishonen is irrelevant to my appeal in that it has nothing to do with my ability to edit in the AP2 topic area. Why are you even bringing it up? This is now beginning to appear to be punitive considering this is my first t-ban ever, since I've been an editor, and it was an indef t-ban whereas other editors who have done far worse were given shorter time limits. There is no need for me to vindicate Bishonen's actions. This is a t-ban appeal at AE, not a request for desysopping at AN so why is it even being discussed? No, I have no intention of filing for a desysop of Bishonen. My statement in my appeal is thorough and to the point. Your questions go beyond what is expected in an appeal. I've made my statement and acknowledged the areas where I need to improve - if you have reason to believe there are other areas that I need to improve, then provide the diffs please. I actually went back and studied the diffs that were used against me, and asked for the specifics. His response was quite vague - not one diff was mentioned. Editors who make allegations about another editor are expected to provide diffs to support their allegations. With all due respect, I ask for the same consideration. Provide the diffs so that I may respond with an intelligent, well-thought out answer to your questions. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 21:39, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * regentspark - I hope it doesn't create an issue, but I just bolded a portion of my text above to emphasize the crux of my appeal. In totality, that is the part that really matters. The focus here is supposed to be a remedy for disruptive behavior, and to deny my appeal based only on speculation and dismissing what I've vowed to do is not fair to me or the project. If you haven't actually studied the diffs in context that were used against me, and I copied to User talk:Atsme/RVW, please take the time to do so because they are what my t-ban was based on - and this appeal is about that t-ban. If you find anything in those diffs that I have not addressed, please advise so we can discuss it. I am a person of principal and I honor my commitments. You can take my words at face value. I am not hiding behind anonymity - what you see is what you get - my real id is on the line here, and I was hoping that my years as an editor have been far more productive than disruptive, so please don't judge me based on this one t-ban. In fact, it would be wonderful if every editor who participated in the AP2 topic area would make a behavior vow similar to mine. AE would look like a ghost town. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 03:29, 22 February 2019 (UTC)


 * MastCell - please provide the diffs you are referencing so that I may address your concerns. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 22:28, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * - I have asked you to provide diffs so that I can respond to your specific concerns but you have not. I provided a link to my explanations of the diffs that were used to support the allegations against me in my original t-ban but I'll do it again specifically for you, only this time I've added a hashtag to the relevant diffs: User_talk:Atsme/RVW. Harvard University conducted a study last year that is available for all to download for free here. It's an interesting study. What Harvard published is an academic study, MastCell, not a news source. You are accusing me of wikilawyering when all I'm trying to do is state the facts. Show me the diffs that make you believe I'm on a "misconceived crusade against reliable media sources". Are you talking about discussions years ago at RS/N or NPOV/N, or are you talking about discussions on article TPs, wherein I've exercised caution as it applies to NOTNEWS, RECENTISM and other related PAGs, especially when unidentified informants were used as sources? Please, point me to the diffs that have given you pause, and have led you to say the hurtful things you've said about me, and with what appears to be anger and unyielding distrust. I've never seen this side of you, and I'm truly hurt by the things you've said. Show me the specific diffs that support the following comments you made about me, and I promise you that I will study them, yet again, and will try my best to ease your mind: "The major concern was that Atsme consistently undermined or obstructed reliable sources, dismissed high-quality journalistic sources as "propaganda", and mischaracterized fact as opinion, all in service of an apparent ideological agenda.", and "Atsme's misconceived crusade against reliable media sources, and ...despite Atsme's unwillingness to substantively engage with the issues that led to the original ban. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 22:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * MastCell, you have to read the diffs in the context they were intended, and to do that you have to read the full discussion. Surely you don't expect me to explain their context here, do you? If you're going to repeat AWilley's questions, then you should have included my response to him as well. What I can say unequivocally to you now is that, to my knowledge, I have always adhered to our PAGs. I believe WP:NOTNEWS is very clear in that Wikipedia is not a newspaper. The policy also states: However, not all verifiable events are suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia and it cautions us about original reporting and that we should not offer first-hand news reports on breaking stories. Wikipedia does not constitute a primary source. It also states, While including information on recent developments is sometimes appropriate, breaking news should not be emphasized or otherwise treated differently from other information. Timely news subjects not suitable for Wikipedia may be suitable for our sister project Wikinews. And then there is WP:RECENTISM - Allegations of recentism should prompt consideration of proportion, balance, and due weight. Material may need to be moved, deleted, or added to. Certain articles might be merged or placed on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion; conversely, articles may need to be split into new articles for balance. Sometimes in-depth information on current events is more appropriately added to Wikinews, which can be reached here. And finally, WP:NEWSORG which states News reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors). In reviewing the diffs you provided, I see where I could have been more selective in my choice of words, and I should not have strayed off-point to indulge in unnecessary debate. I will continue to adhere to our PAGs as I always have, and if I ever find myself editing in the AP2 topic area again, I will behave in the manner I described in my appeal. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 02:12, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * In the diff you referenced, you have to read the discussion for proper context. The article is about Trump's racial views, and the section of the discussion is "Shithole countries". I was trying to demonstrate to my Wikifriend that we have residents along the Texas border who don't consider a border wall as racially motivated, rather they see it as preventing crime, drug trafficking, etc. What I've read in left leaning mainstream sources is the exact opposite, and some appear to be politically driven regarding this issue. Of course, each case is different and why it is our job to evaluate the sources, read the articles and include material in compliance with NPOV. In that discussion I linked to a couple of local and regional sources, including this article, which reported the killing of an innocent angler who got too close to the drug camps, and this one about the increase in migrants from "countries as distant as Bangladesh and Pakistan". I also included a link to the cartel crime stats in Texas. I'm comfortable with what I demonstrated to MPants, and believe it was worthy of consideration. That's what we're supposed to do on article talk pages. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 04:14, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I answered your question above but forgot to ping you. This will be my final comment, and I hope it puts your concerns to rest. In an effort to present the diffs in proper context, please keep the date of the diffs in mind and that the discussion was about the inclusion of specific material in Donald Trump or Racial views of Donald Trump where BLP policy takes precedence. The basis of the discussion was racism and I believe we all know there are two sides to that argument which has already been addressed below by DGG, Masem, Vanamonde, and others. I do give credence to RS such as WaPo and NYTimes, and there are plenty of instances that support what I'm saying now. However, as said below, if I had turned up here "arguing about those same diffs, we'd send her packing for re-litigating the ban." I look at the proposed material to be added/restored/deleted, specifically the article(s) cited, and then I research to corroborate the material as published by other RS; i.e. writing for the opposition. As a result, I've been painted as the opposition in a derogatory manner. I am very cautious of clickbait headlines, and I do strictly adhere to NEWSORG and RECENTISM. I wish more editors would do the same. I often look to the NYTimes and WaPo to corroborate other sources, and vice versa. They are the staples of mainstream media, but they are not infallible. Journalists for both publications tend to lean left. FOX News is criticized as being far right, yet Marc Thiessen with the Washington Post is a Fox News contributor. If we don't read different views, we cannot possibly achieve proper WEIGHT and BALANCE, and we'd be doing the project a disservice. Consensus typically finds the middle ground but we should not silence opposing views, or censor them by ommission. Another aspect for consideration when isolating diffs as evidence - the diffs used were from last year which further demonstrates the blow back of RECENTISM. We have since learned more about that particular issue; however, at the time of the diffs, we did not have all the information, and there were other RS with opposing views that I attempted to impress upon for inclusion to satisfy NPOV (my choice of words back then were not the best). I am not the editor you have characterized based on a few diffs taken out of context. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 15:13, 28 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Drmies - of course there is a human crisis at the southern border, and something needs to be done about it but AE is not the place to discuss it, and certainly not now. Instead of automatically believing the worst of me, you should have noticed that picture was posted a year ago on my TP and it is no longer there. The story behind it was actually a true situation when a friend's kids were watching TV and saw all the kids playing in one of the camps, and they actually thought it was a summer camp where they could go. Real life moment. Secondly, it has no relevance to this appeal except as an attempt to unfairly smear me, and it should be removed. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 05:49, 22 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Bishonen - I was actually referring to the section here for involved editors.<span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 14:28, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Bish, my apologies for the confusion. Regarding the disruption comment, I was actually referring to your statement in the original case wherein you said, "I should say that Am Pol is no rosegarden even if we disregard Atsme's input, and probably won't be one even if my ban is upheld. Several people have recommended an AP3 case to deal with the chaos on Trump-related pages. This diff. Probably not the best example but it made sense at the time. With regard to the other issue, my reference was to the section title below where "Involved editors" are supposed to comment - involved in the regard MastCell mentioned and where other editors have participated in AP2, I suppose. Perhaps I was confused over what you said. Anyway, work awaits, and I think it's time for me to get busy responding to CE requests. Enjoy the day! <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 17:59, 22 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Just wanted to respond to MVBW's use of this link which appears to have raised some doubt. It actually turns out to be an excellent example of what I have already identified as the problem I vowed to not repeat. In that diff, I was overzealous, wandered off point, and clearly lacked brevity - please read my close in that diff which is actually the point I was trying to make - Use inline text attribution, follow the RS guideline for material that may be challenged, avoid policy noncompliance and apply BRD to rid an article of biased garbage and fallacious claims. Unfortunately, my close was completely lost primarily because of what I have properly described in my appeal as the crux of my problem. I reiterate...overzealousness, lack of brevity, wandering off point - and that's what led to the issues that were raised. Had I simply stated what I stated in the close instead of all the rambling that preceded it, my comment would not have been an issue...except for some of the ending terminology which I will not use in that manner in the future. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 18:20, 22 February 2019 (UTC)


 * , thank you for expressing your concerns. I fondly remember our past discussions and your willingness to help. In response to your concerns regarding admin actions, please rest assured that I have read WP:INVOLVED more than once, and understand it well. Regarding your second concern, ...to commit to keeping discussions on topic, and adhering to the guidelines as they are written, I believe the bolded portion of my appeal addresses "on topic", but I used the words "on point" - please consider it to mean the same thing. Regarding the remainder of your concern...my unyielding adherence to guidelines is part of what got me here - and there is also IAR to consider - but I think I understand the gist of your concern. Please rest assured, I have found the middle button, and know when to leave well-enough alone. My interpretation of our PAGs have served me well over the years in the topic areas I've been involved, including as a reviewer at NPP & AfC, as an OTRS agent, at AfD, in GA & FA reviews, and as an occasional contributor in discussions necessitating PAG modifications for improved clarity and less ambiguity. I hope my response will put your mind at ease. <span style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">Atsme ✍🏻📧 14:31, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Bishonen
I don't think I'll comment here, unless someone should have an urgent question for me. But it might be useful to have a link to my topic ban rationale. Here it is. Bishonen &#124; talk 21:06, 20 February 2019 (UTC).

It turns out I've nevertheless got a few questions now:
 * 1)  You say "Please don't forget that there have been a substantial number of editors t-banned since June 2018, not just me. Bishonen acknowledged that in her statement." I'm not quite following that. I acknowledged what, where?
 * 2)  I notice that now you meet some resistance, the allegations of "involved administrators" appear again: "It appears that whether or not I respond to each allegation made by involved editors/admins or choose to ignore them, I will be condemned either way". Not sure who you're referring to as involved — is it Awilley? Awilley and some others?  Bishonen &#124; talk 12:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC).
 * 3) You point out that Atsme's banner about the Trump summer camps is seven months old, and "unless there's evidence of recent advocacy [you're] not really concerned about that". How could there be more recent advocacy, when she has been topic banned from American politics for the last seven months? And has properly abided by the ban. Anything Am Pol-related from Atsme is going to be at least seven months. Bishonen &#124; talk 12:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC).
 * I was hoping this needn't turn into a whole discussion, but I'm more confused now than before you posted your reply. Does it refer to both my questions, or is there more coming? Where is there a section for involved editors? Where in my statement (presumably not my brief statement above, so what statement?) did I acknowledge "that there have been a substantial number of editors t-banned since June 2018, not just [you]"? Bishonen &#124; talk 16:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC).

Statement by Mr Ernie
I would support a lifting of the restriction. This is a very introspective appeal. Atsme is intelligent and articulate, which are characteristics of editors we need on the project. I believe them when they say they've taken those instructive essays to heart. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:57, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
 * There’s a risk that this could now go on and on with editors coming in with specific questions about what would you do in this case, what do you think about this, what do you think about that. I would encourage us to AGF and believe Atsme when they say they will approach this topic with better behavior. Most admins below seem to support lifting the topic ban, so how long do we need to go round and round here? Mr Ernie (talk) 18:56, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by MrX
Any administrators considering whether to lift this topic ban should evaluate whether Atsme's appeal addresses the full extent of the conduct that resulted in the topic ban. As the editor who brought the original complaint, I can say that it had nothing to do with civility. Brevity and staying on point are necessary, but so is refraining from the other behaviors that lead to the ban: whataboutism, discrediting reliable sources, claiming bias and propaganda in reliable sources, filibustering, sidetracking discussions, POV fighting, rehashing comments, refusing to get the point, distorting policies, and wikilawyering.

After Atsme was topic banned, the quality of discussion on several American politics talk pages improved markedly. If the topic ban is lifted, it should come with a firm provision that any recidivism will result in a resumption of the topic ban. - MrX 🖋 02:30, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I stand by my assertion that the discussions on the Trump talk pages improved in brevity, adherence to the topic, and quality. What's interesting is that if you think they have been the same or worse, why you have not raised your concerns at AE. It's not like you haven't been here before.- MrX 🖋 15:32, 21 February 2019 (UTC)


 * It might be helpful to know if Atsme still believes that "the media" is biased and proven to be 90% negative against Donald Trump, or if separating immigrant children from their parents is Barack Obama's fault. Does she still believe that news sources "spin the truth"?. Has her opinion changed that The Washington Post is "highly misleading and inaccurate" when they say "It has become standard operating procedure for Trump and his aides to deceive the public with false statements and shifting accounts."? Does she still believe that CNN, WaPo, NYTimes report disinformation? Does she still think that her close friends on the border are better sources than Leftist mainstream media? - MrX 🖋 22:57, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by MONGO
Atsme is kind, is polite, is passionate about her editing, truly cares and wants to help keep articles balanced in their wording. While Atsme claims that she has had RL issues and what not to attend to since, I feel that the ban took the wind out of her sails for most anything on the site. I therefore support seeing the ban lifted but offer advice should this happen. That advice to Atsme is to not waste your precious hours arguing with editors that loiter on these political articles. While its fine to cast a "vote" and to offer a very concise explanation, the inevitable hectoring from those that disagree with you should be met with no response, no response at all. Brevity is the soul of wit. You will not change their minds, as their minds are made up. Avoid those drama-laden articles where no good happens, no one smiles, no one is happy, where people waste thousands of edits and yet the article is no where near to achieving even a "Good" rating because the article is merely a collection of twisted sound bites, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Yes, lift the ban so we can put this behind us and Atsme won't be carrying this on her otherwise quite excellent wiki-resume any longer.--MONGO (talk) 04:24, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Simply adding that Atsme is going to be watched quite obviously. The chance she is going to make an irreversible error is next to zero and if she does err in a manner unpleasing to those here that object to her unbanning, it will surely be quite easy to ban her again, and that will likely be irreversible...at least in the near term.--MONGO (talk) 01:08, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Winged Blades of Godric
The appeal looks sincere and impresses upon me that she has understood the problems of her erstwhile conduct in the area. Support a grant. &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse 11:04, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Floq
, do you still believe the topic ban was placed unfairly, as retaliation by an involved admin who did so because she hates you? That it should have resulted in Bishonen's desysop? You said that - several times - on your talk page when it was first imposed, and while I haven't gone digging for diffs (I can if you believe I'm being inaccurate), I recall you saying similar things a whole bunch of times after that. Has that perspective changed as well? I'd also value your opinion on MrX's comment above. Do you think the only problem with your behavior was that you weren't being nice and were too longwinded?

I'm a friend of Bish's, so I'll consider myself involved, but these are the kind of things I think uninvolved admins should be asking. --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:37, 21 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Why are you asking for diffs about things that you 100% know you said? Two of which you linked to yourself above? Here are 3 obvious, easy ones:
 * Atsme's statement in response to MrX's ARCA filing:
 * Atsme's comments on her own talk page after the t-ban imposition:
 * Atsme's statement in her appeal in August:
 * Do a ctrl-f for "Bishonen" in each section and at least a half dozen examples of accusing her of malfeasance will show up in each one. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:52, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Last reply: I am not trying to get you further sanctioned for the baseless accusations you made about Bishonen 6 months ago. I'm trying to evaluate whether you still have the same battleground mentality and proclivity for gamesmanship in an argument that caused the topic ban to be imposed in the first place.  I think you've answered that question, so I'll go find something else to do now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:56, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by MastCell
I'm concerned that this appeal shows no indication that Atsme understands the rationale behind the topic ban. She states that she has learned the importance of being brief and remaining civil. True, there was an element of bludgeoning in her previous participation in the topic area, and her commitment to avoid that behavior going forward is welcome. But the topic ban was not placed because Atsme was uncivil, or overly prolix. (If anything, commentary in the initial topic ban discussion generally praised her civility). The major concern was that Atsme consistently undermined or obstructed reliable sources, dismissed high-quality journalistic sources as "propaganda", and mischaracterized fact as opinion, all in service of an apparent ideological agenda. Those behaviors were rightly identified as toxic to our efforts to cover political topics accurately and neutrally. I would absolutely oppose lifting this topic ban unless and until Atsme grapples with the actual reasons that it was placed. And that's a practical consideration, not a personal one: if she doesn't understand why the topic ban was placed, then she will certainly run into the same trouble again. We currently have a major problem on American-politics articles with editors who inappropriately dismiss, stonewall, or undermine reliable sources on partisan grounds, and who enable and amplify each other in doing so. Adding Atsme back to the topic area is a mistake unless it's clear that this behavior isn't going to be repeated.

Separately, Atsme's reaction to the topic ban was highly, and somewhat indiscriminately, belligerent. She attacked various editors and admins as biased, disruptive, and so on, often without any substantive evidence. I understand that, to some extent, this was a fight-or-flight reaction in the heat of the moment. But if that's the case, then I think it's reasonable to ask for some introspection on Atsme's part. How does she view her reaction to the topic ban now, at a distance? Does she continue to believe that it was motivated by bias and personal malice? Does she feel an apology is owed to any, some, or all of the people whom she attacked?

I'm placing myself in this section, rather than the uninvolved-admin section, because I've interacted with Atsme quite a bit. We've often disagreed; we've sometimes agreed; we've generally been friendly. But, like Floquenbeam, these are the kinds of questions I would expect uninvolved admins to ask, as part of their basic due diligence, before entertaining removal of this topic ban (thank you, RegentsPark and Awilley). MastCell Talk 21:32, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Like Floquenbeam, I think it's silly (if not dishonest) to demand diffs when we both know exactly what I'm talking about. And I see that after Awilley went to the trouble of fetching the shrubbery you demanded, and provided an exhaustive list of diffs, you responded: "I'm not going to go over each one of your cherrypicked diffs". To me, this looks like straight-up wikilawyering on your part, to avoid taking responsibility for your statements and actions. I'm absolutely opposed to lifting the topic ban at this point, because I think Atsme's responses provide no reason to believe that anything will be different if the ban is lifted. MastCell Talk 22:23, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I continue to feel that Atsme has not understood the reasons for her topic ban, and that she will therefore inevitably return to the same behaviors. (After all, how can one change a behavior if one doesn't realize that it was problematic in the first place?) Worse, some commenters have actually enabled Atsme's misconceived crusade against reliable media sources. I'm also concerned by the blithe assurances that Atsme will simply be re-banned if she strays again&mdash;that burden is going to borne by the people commenting up here, which is why we're so insistent on figuring out whether she's actually learned anything. Since this ban appeal looks likely to succeed, I will expect the admins who voted in favor of it (despite Atsme's unwillingness to substantively engage with the issues that led to the original ban) to be personally available and willing to act if the problematic behaviors resume. MastCell Talk 20:51, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Atsme, I've already addressed your request for diffs, but will do so again. Let's start with the list of diffs supplied by Awilley here. Those diffs are a reasonable representation of what concerns me. Specifically:
 * "if you don't live along a southern border in the US, or within 100 miles of it, you can't possibly know what really goes on. If you think leftist MSM is going to tell you, think again... MSM has done a great job with their open border propaganda and keeping the American people uninformed via ommission." This is an outright rejection of this site's sourcing guidelines and policies, and an assault on reliable sources as the foundation of our content, with the suggestion that we should replace reliably-sourced content with testimonials from people living within an arbitrary radius of the southern border.
 * You again attack reliable sources, on political grounds: "enforcement of those laws has obviously become politicized and sensationalized by clickbait media, most of which are proven to be 90% negative toward Trump. Ironically, some of the very same media who attempted to circulate images of children in fenced cages, blamed Trump when the images were actually from the Obama administration... enough already with the back and forth here, all of which is based on biased media reporting to appeal to human compassion (more like propaganda), none of which to date is supported by factual evidence... the biased media wants to blame Trump for everything, including the mistakes of prior admins. Oh, and ask yourselves honestly if we allow such material in the Trump BLP, are we going to include the related information in the Bush & Obama administrations, considering they should be considered equally at fault?" (You promote the falsehood that Trump's family-separation policy is substantially the same as Obama's. While promoting politically-motivated falsehoods on talkpages is not necessarily sanctionable, neither is it desirable behavior.)
 * Another attack on reliable sources: "No, (the sources) are not clear, they are spinning the truth, playing on human emotion and are not properly presenting the actual facts, which includes purposeful child endangerment by the parents who are being arrested for not entering legally via ports of entry and by adults who are trafficking children, etc."
 * More attacks on reliable sources: "Surely you have the needed editorial discretion to make a sound judgment call between what biased clickbait media portrays and what Trump's actions and actual FACTS tell us. Show me one instance in the Trump presidency that supports white supremacy other than the spin by biased media, and I will be expeditiously change my position about the topic... I'm not ok with the media creating their own facts after the questions have been answered."
 * (I've borrowed these from Awilley; you declined to address them when he presented them to you.) These are a small sample, but they illustrate my major concern: you have attacked, undermined, and rejected reliable sources because they conflict with your personal political viewpoints. That was a central reason for the topic ban. Has that changed? How do you view these diffs now&mdash;do you continue to endorse them? Will you commit to accepting news reporting from reputable journalistic outlets, like the New York Times or Washington Post, as reliable sources&mdash;even if you personally disagree with their content? Will you, at a minimum, stop actively attacking and sabotaging these reliable sources on Wikipedia? Will you refrain from using talk pages to promote politically motivated falsehoods? MastCell Talk 23:22, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Atsme, your response is, well, non-responsive. I don't need a lecture about WP:RECENTISM and WP:NOTNEWS. You were not invoking those policies in the diffs I presented. You were arguing that reliable sources are biased against Donald Trump and should be deprecated. Here you explicitly state that reliable sources cannot be trusted because they are inherently "leftist", and dedicated to spreading deliberate misinformation and "open border propaganda". That has absolutely nothing to do with RECENTISM or NOTNEWS&mdash;it is a straight-up rejection of this site's basic sourcing policies. Can you explain, without cut-and-pasting large swathes of irrelevant policy, whether you continue to hold the sentiments expressed in that diff? MastCell Talk 02:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Vanamonde, I think we're on the same page. The issue is not Atsme's personal beliefs per se, but rather her insistence on blocking the use of reliable sources on the basis of those beliefs. Atsme is free to regard the New York Times and the Washington Post as "leftist open border propaganda". I just want her to commit to stop using those opinions to stonewall the use of reliable sources on Wikipedia. (As an analogy, we've had plenty of editors who reject the scientific literature, but we generally don't allow them to write our articles on vaccination). It's pretty clear to me that a) Atsme has done this and b) that she doesn't have any insight into this issue at all. But if no one else is seeing that, then hey. MastCell Talk 04:39, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Softlavender
In her responses to administrators here, Atsme is going right back into the WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and self-justification that got her the indef topic ban. Sample: "it was an indef t-ban whereas other editors who have done far worse were given shorter time limits." Sample: bringing up Newyorkbrad who wisely ignored her belligerent baiting demands on his talkpage back then: "I actually went back and studied the diffs that were used against me, and asked for the specifics. His response was quite vague - not one diff was mentioned." Etc. All this says to me that Atsme has not been rehabilitated, does not understand her own behavioral problems, and will likely continue with battleground attacks and self-justifying recriminations if the topic ban is lifted at this time. I will also note that over the course of her TBan she complained fairly noticeably about the TBan, usually symbolically, indirectly, or covertly, but clearly, including to kindred spirits like Winkelvi, including posting images of a person with their mouth gagged, and so on. I recommend retaining the TBan. Possibly an appeal in another six months will be less belligerent and more self-responsible. Softlavender (talk) 00:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by K.e.coffman
I've been involved in the general topic area, but not in the specific disputes with Atsme. I'm concerned about potentially continued advocacy that may be contrary to the goals of the project, such as inclusivity and tolerance. For example, Atsme's Talk page displayed the following in July of 2018:

Source: permalink. If the appeal is granted, I would like to request Atsme to please refrain from broadcasting intolerant messages in userspace.

I'm also concerned about the lack of acknowledgement of past battleground behaviour, as specifically was evident in the first appeal. At the time, I described it as "borderline harassment of the editor who submitted the original request":  Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics_2. I see this as more than "stray[ing] from my customary collegial behavior". Perhaps, a one-way interaction ban should be considered in case the appeal is successful. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:36, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * In re: this response to my statement, the "real life moment" was posted without context and the sentiment it seems to express was echoed in an unrelated user Talk page discussion about the Trump administration family separation policy:
 * "the whole affair has been sensationalized by media - great clickbait - our local news has assured us that the kids are fine, and living under the best of conditions. Our American children who are homeless wish they had it so good. The hook audio of babies crying is done with a purpose, specifically to persuade the midterms...".
 * I noticed Atsme's response because I started the thread: permalink, and then took a look at Atsme's Talk page and found more of the same. I believe that such comments are relevant to the appeal, as Atsme asserted that reliable sources were "clickbait" and ascribed nefarious motives to the journalists covering the family separation policy, apart from my concerns about the nature of the Talk page banner. Such comments are toxic in the AP area, and I was asking Atsme to avoid them in the future should she return to editing these topic. --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:15, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Ading ping as you have commented on my statement. --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:23, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Drmies
Whoa, that kid's summer camp was new to me. Atsme, I do not understand how you ever thought that was funny. Those kids, separated from their families, many of them fleeing abuse only to land in more abuse, deserve much better than that. Drmies (talk) 04:46, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * , I am puzzled by your comment on reliable sources. You say it's become common to "blindly use sources in a slavish manner without question, while there are others (which I'd include myself in and consider Atsme in as well) that feel that it wholly appropriate to consider the state of the state before blindly using sources". The "blindly" thing is a complete straw man, as if the regular editors don't have editorial judgment; and Atsme, well, I am not aware that I've seen her reasonably and comprehensive question reliable sources. I have seen doubt being cast more generally on "the mainstream media", as if there isn't any reliability at all anymore. I sure hope that, if this topic ban is lifted, we will see less of that cynicism. Seriously, "blindly using sources"--I am going to sign off before I will really start to doubt your judgment. Drmies (talk) 03:06, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Objective3000
I’m generally in favor of second chances, and I really like to see contrite appeals acknowledging past error and plans to avoid those errs in future. Atsme’s appeal was, indeed, contrite and promised avoidance of further problems. It was very well presented. Unfortunately, I believe it was off topic. Atsme was not banned for incivility. MrX gives a brief rundown of the many problems with her past behavior related to AP2 articles. I agree with all of MrX’s observations and haven’t seen any indication that they won’t be repeated. I would feel far more comfortable with an acknowledgement of these problems. And, I fear anyone with such a dim view of sources like WaPo and NYT, while accepting Breitbart, will continue to experience difficulties in AP2. Having said all that, Atsme is a solid contributor in non-AP2 areas. It would be an unfortunate outcome should reinsertion in the AP2 arena degrade her contributions to other areas of the project. O3000 (talk) 15:01, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment by JzG
Atsme is a lovely person, but I have encountered exactly the same behaviour since I first encountered her over her edits to in 2015, and also in other cases related to her hot-button issues. The tban here is entirely defensible, and any lifting would basically require a voluntary restriction almost as broad, I'm afraid. I think this is just how Atsme is. The good news is that everywhere else, I find she is an absolute delight, endlessly helpful and polite. Guy (Help!) 18:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I understand your point, but Atsme has not simply advanced a political POV, she has rejected reliable sources on the basis that they conflict with her ideology. That is a specific and very real problem. The right wing media bubble is now almost completely disconnected from the continuum of mainstream media. Fox used to cite the WSJ and even WaPo, but this declined sharply after Fox lost viewers over ideological purity, with Breitbart taking up the slack. Fox has regained mindshare in the right only since it stopped referencing mainstream sources in its main segments. These days the word "mainstream" is used by the political right as a synonym for "liberal". That is profoundly dangerous. It casts propaganda and journalism as equivalents. The mainstream media includes the Wall Street Journal, remember, which has an editorial policy that is fiscally and socially conservative and rejects climate change on ideological grounds. I find Atsme's rejection of sources simply because they are mainstream to be profoundly disturbing. It is antithetical to WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NPOV - and it was in evidence over the dispute in 2015 around G. Edward Griffin (a member of the John Birch Society), with a distinct conspiracist tinge. Guy (Help!) 22:40, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by JFG
Atsme is one of the most level-headed editors I have ever encountered in the DS/AP area. Sure, she tends to be rather argumentative when discussing contentious issues, but isn't that what talk pages are for? I'd much rather deal with the occasional talk page bludgeoning than with a sneaky WP:NINJA editor or a holier-than-thou WP:POVFIGHTER. Atsme has personal bias, as we all do, but she doesn't let her personal opinions get in the way of the overall goal of the encyclopedia. I believe the enforced break may have improved her sense of understanding when she should drop the stick, or in her own words WP:LETITGO. She also has a thick-enough skin to withstand whatever criticism of her actions may further arise. Last but not least, I am looking forward to enjoying her sense of humour again. Support unblock lifting TBAN. — JFG talk 09:32, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Statement by Darouet
I support the lifting of these sanctions. Atsme is not merely a kind editor, something that most have acknowledged here. She is also a superb editor and an example to other editors all across the project: sharp, dedicated, and involved in content creation. Atsme has a very strong record of improving site content. And Atsme appears kind because her tone reflects her generally thoughtful attitude to her editing.

Atsme's kindness and corresponding thoughtfulness have not always been reciprocated either by editors or admins at US politics pages, as she has demonstrated. Atsme's concerns in this regard were evidently not considered seriously since she was topic banned just minutes after posting diffs to defend herself.

I strongly agree with more or less every aspect of 's statement on this case, highlighting that "it is essential for the proper presentation of controversial topics that all views be represented, proportionately and fairly," and "US courts have long held that the rules on free speech and press apply particularly to political matters." This is wholly consistent with Atsme's original appeal: "I didn't think civil disagreement while seeking consensus would be grounds for a sanction." -Darouet (talk) 18:29, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment by Shrike
I think Atsme learned from her mistakes and I support the appeal --Shrike (talk) 13:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment by PackMecEng
For what it is worth it certainly seems she has learned her lesson. I think her contributions elsewhere speak for themselves on that issue. Her response here also clearly shows she has seen the issues with past behavior and has learned form them. I must disagree with MrX's point above though, at best discussions on those pages are the same or worse. To say since the removal of Atsme the pages have "improved markedly" is rather perplexing and an unnecessary comment. I also think that many people will have an eye on her in that subject area and be quick to report any infractions should issues arise. In the end Astme is a productive and valuable editor and it would be a shame if she could not help improve all topics. PackMecEng (talk) 15:07, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I tend not to complain as much. Unless something becomes a large problem or if I think something positive would actually come of it. PackMecEng (talk) 15:49, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

So at this point it looks like just about everyone is in agreement to lift the sanction and keep an eye on things. Sound like a plan? PackMecEng (talk) 03:32, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment by Masem
Not really directly involved in any fashion but I've rubbed up against Atsme and other involved editors enough to consider myself "involved", if only that I share Atsme's stance on how we are treating these topics. I've been in the same boat before with Gamergate (where my policy-based discussed on talk pages were considered by some to be disruptive but not determined to be by Arbcom), and in reviewing the diffs from the original AP actions, the worst I see is the tendentious editing facet, but everything else argued then seemed to be an attempt to silence a dissenting voice that is bringing up valid policy-related matters and otherwise not outright disruptive. (I've seen this far too much in other venues outside AP2) As long as Atsme is aware of TE issues and is willing to back off if told they're approaching that point, then there's no reason to not lift the ban. AP2 is going to naturally create animosity between editors, but we have to be careful to vilify those that seem to be contrary but are otherwise fairly arguing. Talk pages are there to work it out. --M asem (t) 15:49, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * From Mastcell's comment How one views what Atsme did (per diffs of the AP2 complaint) is eye-of-the-beholder stance. There is an unfortunate trend over the last several years that editors want to blindly use sources in a slavish manner without question, while there are others (which I'd include myself in and consider Atsme in as well) that feel that it wholly appropriate to consider the state of the state before blindly using sources. Which way to go is not prescribed by any policy, so there's no right or wrong way, thus it is improper to consider Atsme's interactions as disruptive for these types of comments is in poor judgement. Otherwise, this becomes a very easy way to silence opponents (the same problems happening at Gamergate) That there was TE-ness in their edits, that's very different and an actionable manner and one that, should their ban be lifted, to make sure Atsme stays away from. --M asem  (t) 21:59, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm simply re-stating the original basis for the topic ban. I'm not interested in re-litigating its merits with you, nor do I think you're doing Atsme any favors by minimizing and normalizing the behavior that got her topic-banned. MastCell Talk 22:06, 21 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Looking at the four diffs presented by MastCell, I want to comment on those. First, I do want to point out this statement from Bishonen's block action, The first four of those five (well, perhaps not the persistence resistance one) are all actionable as behavioral problems that have zero to do with any content, source reliability, or the like. I know I've been on the WP:TE side of talk page discussions, and long since tries to disengage as soon as I feel I'm going there, and that's something that is not unreasonable to expect with Atsme here. Those four behaviors can be disruptive and should be dealt with. The fact that Atsme backed off, and in this recognized the TE behavior as a problem is all reason to lift the ban, with cautionary restrictions should that behavior arise again.
 * The last one of Bishonen's areas is tied to MastCell's four diffs, and that's the area that I think is all in the "eye of the beholder". Where some might see those diffs as refusing to accept that reliable sources are beyond reproach, I see someone asking us to look at the bigger picture and how to consider those sources in treating a controvesial topic in a neutral manner. We're not an ivory tower or walled garden, and have every ability to question the sources', particularly in like of NPOV. No policy requires us to accept RSes at face value, a fact that tends to get lost in the current AP2 topic area. I do think some of Atsme's characterizations of sources get a bit too strong, but not to an actionable point - its only when combined with the TE-ness of how they discuss topics that makes the overall behavior troublesome. But to ask questions of source reliable is 100% fair game for a talk page discussion that doesn't veer into TE-like discussions. I would caution going too much into exactly how much we can question RSes, as that's a very very length issue - the point is that it is not a hard policy issue and one that editors can take different ways, and thus should not be consider actionable in lieu of any of the other above behavioral problems. --M asem (t) 00:34, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * there's a very big difference between trying to argue that reliable sources are not reliable (which I don't think anyone is doing) and trying to argue that reliable sources are not infallible. The latter is very much in the realm of possibilities particularly in the present day situations and the state of the media. The situation that Atsme appears to have been stuck in is that all editors around them wanted to take the reliable source at face value without question, which is not a good method of writing a neutral encyclopedia. There is not a single policy that prevents editors from asking those types of questions. Now if they keep on begging and begging the question into TE territory... that's different. --M asem (t) 06:30, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment by Springee
I'm very much not an involved editor here. I have no idea what brought Atsme to this point. What I'm seeing is two camps. One that thinks a second chance is warranted, others who are pointing out past issues out of concern they will happen again. It sounds like a fence case. I see four possible futures here. One, consensus says no and it turns out they were right because Atsme would return to the problematic behavior. Two, consensus say yes and Atsme stays clean. Three, consensus says no but Atsme would have stayed clean. Four, consensus says yes and bad behavior resumes.

The first two represent the correct decisions given future behavior. They represent the betterment of Wikipedia. The fourth is unfortunate but also reversible. The third is the problem. In the third case the decision is effectively a punishment rather than protecting the encyclopedia. What is the harm in giving the benefit of the doubt in a fence case? If the Tban is lifted and problems return are people concerned that Atsme's behavior won't be scrutinized or an admin would be more than willing to restore the ban? If lifting the ban turns out to be the wrong choice it can be reversed, edits undone. But if it's the right choice, but not the consensus decision, then the Tban is a punishment for past sins rather than a protection. Both the editor and encyclopedia suffer for it.

For what it's worth, and I only know what people are saying here, I think she should be given the benefit of doubt and lift the tban. It can always be restored. Springee (talk) 00:59, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment by GRuban
Support per everyone and their brother. She's dedicated, experienced, energetic, kind, and an all around good Joe. Summer camp, well, if everyone who's ever made an unsuccessful attempt to lighten a terrible situation with a joke were excluded, we wouldn't have any humanity left. To err is human, to forgive is … among other things, what this noticeboard is for. --GRuban (talk) 15:41, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I would also like to give proper due to some of the opposing voices, by quoting none other than the original restricting administrator, the inimitable User:Bishonen (in today's Signpost, no less!):

"When people insist that before blocked users can be unblocked, they must apologise, admit their mistakes, agree to learn to avoid previous pitfalls, work to address all of the issues, pave the road, seek redemption, face the music, show that they understand why exactly they were blocked and how right it was that they should be, or show remorse, it's probably not because the insister would like to see a show trial or ritual humiliation. More likely they have some psychiatric training and know how important it is to resolve conflicts and seek reconciliation, and how much better the delinquent would feel afterwards."
 * --GRuban (talk) 21:15, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment by My very best wishes
I think a successful appeal should generally include two parts:
 * 1) What was the problem? For example, that might be a personal bias that a lot of reliable sources are equal to the "fake news" (as Mr. President said), or as Atsme tells here, "The news we're getting now is mostly propaganda". Obviously, one can not properly use reliable sources if one believes they are propaganda.
 * 2) The solution? There could be different solutions. 1. Maybe the contributor realized that trashing reliable sources was wrong. 2. Maybe he/she still has a bias, but will not even mention any sources colored pink or yellow in this Table, while focusing on the sources colored green. 3. May be he/she is going to avoid editing any controversial subjects for a while. And so on, and so on. This depends on the person, but I am not sure what is that exactly, after looking at her statement. Something like "I will stay on point, present my case with civility while keeping brevity in mind" does not really address the actual problem I think. My very best wishes (talk) 16:21, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * @Atsme. My apology if I misinterpreted something. In the diff you compared WorldNetDaily and NYT as equally "good" sources. My very best wishes (talk) 20:37, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment by Petrarchan47
I see no reason that the topic ban should not be lifted and good faith assumed. If Atsme is pulling our legs, or for some reason goes off the deep end, Wikipedians will deal with it in the moment. I see no harm in letting Atsme's future actions speak for themselves, and I see no good arguments presented to convince me otherwise.

Atsme's topic ban was meant to teach a lesson, and not, one would hope, to remain indefinitely in order to silence an editor who steers articles toward NPOV in Wikipedia's arguably left-leaning atmosphere. Obviously, any bias has a profoundly detrimental effect on the reputation of the encyclopedia. DGG points to this issue: the need for editors who speak outside of the echo chamber. Indeed these editors should be embraced if NPOV is treasured as it should be. I have not worked alongside Atsme on any political articles but I wonder from the response to the border wall cartoon if she is viewed by some as not anti-Trump enough, or seen as problematic for not adhering to a 'house bias'.  petrarchan47  คุ  ก   23:23, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment by Tryptofish
I've been wavering for days about whether or not I should say anything at all. But I've decided that I want to say that GoldenRing's most recent comment is correct. I think you should grant the appeal, and of course include very specific language about not backsliding and so forth. And if there is backsliding, then we will be back here swiftly, with decisive results. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:15, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment by Pawnkingthree
Just wanted to say I agree entirely with Mastcell. Someone who regards the New York Times and the Washington Post as leftist propaganda and not reliable sources for Wikipedia purposes should not be editing in this topic area. Atme’s refusal to answer Mastcell’s straightforward question is very revealing. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:06, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Atsme

 * This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.


 * I support lifting this restriction, on the understanding that the tolerance for trouble will be very minimal. GoldenRing (talk) 08:23, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Note that in making 's comment unthreaded I made a bit of a mess of the template.  If you consider yourselves involved, please move your comments back into the involved section.  Sorry, everyone.  GoldenRing (talk) 16:10, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I consider myself involved enough to not participate in this section (beyond this message) to determine the result, but uninvolved in the larger picture. --M asem (t) 19:18, 21 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes, no objection to the restriction being lifted, with the usual caveats about Atsme not backsliding into any of the previous problematic behaviour. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:1.1em/1em Arial Black;letter-spacing:-0.09em"><u style="text-decoration:none;color:#38a">Fish +<u style="text-decoration:none;color:#B44">Karate 10:10, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * To add, I think the banner K.e. coffman has provided is evidence of a poor lead-balloon joke lifted here out of context, rather than 'political advocacy', and I note it is from 7 months ago, unless there's evidence of recent advocacy I'm not really concerned about that. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:1.1em/1em Arial Black;letter-spacing:-0.09em"><u style="text-decoration:none;color:#38a">Fish +<u style="text-decoration:none;color:#B44">Karate 10:32, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes that's right. Sorry I wasn't clear - I would be concerned if there had been anything during the topic ban. As I mentioned, I'd want to see the topic ban lifted with the usual caveats about not backsliding into problematic behaviour, and political advocacy would be one of those behaviours. <u style="text-decoration:none;font:1.1em/1em Arial Black;letter-spacing:-0.09em"><u style="text-decoration:none;color:#38a">Fish +<u style="text-decoration:none;color:#B44">Karate  13:07, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I share the views expressed by GoldenRing and Fish and karate.  Sandstein   11:04, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm a little troubled that Atsme hasn't addressed her remarks about Bishonen that I see linked above (Bishonen's statement). Atsme, do you still believe that Bishonen's actions were retaliatory and that she should be desysopped? I notice that you apologized only for using the word "hate" in your response to Floq - a word which, incidentally, you did not use - but say nothing about the other statements you made about Bishonen's motives following the block. It would be helpful if you would clarify whether you believe that the ban was justified and not retaliatory or made by an involved admin.  --regentspark (comment) 19:38, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Atsme, the reason I brought that up is because your initial statement says that you recognize that your editing was less than ideal ("strayed from the collegial", for example) but it didn't specifically address your remarks about Bishonen (actually, coming to think of it, the entire statement is rather devoid of particulars). The point is fairly straightforward. If you continue to think Bishonen's actions were retaliatory and unjustified, then most of your statement is, with apologies, hogwash. Which is why it is not irrelevant. Now that I've read Awilley's comments below, I think what's troubling is that you're dealing in generalities and not pointing to anything specific about what resulted in the t-ban in the first place and not pointing to any specifics about how you're going to change going forward. --regentspark (comment) 01:47, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * In the interests of moving this forward, I think we should accept this appeal. I would have liked to see a clear statement regarding her view on whether the t-ban was justified or not but I understand that's not always easy to make. Awilley and Vanamonde93 make good points below that there has been some introspection and - cue ominous music - :) "people are watching" and there's more to lose than to gain by dragging this out. --regentspark (comment) 18:18, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Leaning towards accept, but with a few thoughts and one big concern:
 * First, I think Bishonen's topic ban effected a clear net improvement for the topic area. Going back and reading some of the material surrounding the evidence diffs reminded me how bad things were getting, and as a side note it was interesting to see how many of the disruptive editors have since been topic banned or have otherwise moved on. If the topic ban is lifted I would expect Atsme to adapt to how things have changed, and try to further elevate the discourse (which is still far from ideal), and not drag things back in time to 2018 and earlier.
 * I think the appeal above does a really good job of dealing with the concerns of filibustering, IDHT, bludgeoning, etc. That really was a problem. In fact I wrote User:Awilley/Discretionary_sanctions specifically with Atsme in mind, and if she hadn't already been topic banned at the time of writing I would have placed that sanction on her without any hesitation. (I think it would be a good idea for her to give it a read through and follow it anyway, since it's mostly just good talkpage etiquette.)
 * I don't think the appeal has adequately dealt with the concern about "Repeatedly discrediting reliable sources; claiming bias and propaganda in reliable sources" which was a big part of the evidence and rationale for the topic ban. Is Atsme going to continue referring to the "MSM" as "propaganda" or claiming that sources like Breitbart are as reliable as the NYTimes? Note I'm not saying that we should unquestionably accept everything the "MSM" says, but there's a difference between having a healthy skepticism for all sources vs. yelling "Propaganda!" and "Fake News!" when news organizations write things we don't agree with. I'd appreciate a response to this @Atsme.
 * ~Awilley (talk) 20:11, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Your request for diffs strikes me as a bit disingenuous, and the page you linked didn't resolve my concern. You're responding to the diffs in "Group 1" as if the problem were civility. (It was not.) "The diffs related to the problem I am referencing are all here under the convenient subheading "Repeatedly discrediting reliable sources; claiming bias and propaganda in reliable sources" and also the diffs in the following sentence: "Although she often complains about clickbait sources, she is apparently OK with using source like The Daily Caller, Breitbart, World Net Daily, Daily Wire, and RedState" I'm really not interested in re-litigating the rationale of the topic ban and copying over and analyzing diffs that you are perfectly capable of opening and reading yourself. All I want to know is that you understand what the problem was and that you intend to fix it. ~Awilley (talk) 00:07, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I've given this some thought over the past couple of days. I believe that the best outcomes of an unban/unblock occur when an editor clearly understands the problem that led to the ban and makes a commitment not to repeat that problem. My concern here was that Atsme only did that for half the problem and didn't seem to understand the other half of the reason for her ban. My conversation with her on her talk page unfortunately did little to resolve that concern. The next best solution I suppose is to lift the ban with an explicit warning that repeating the behavior that led to the ban will result in further sanctions. Call it WP:ROPE if you wish. ~Awilley (talk) 22:02, 25 February 2019 (UTC)


 * I think we should accept the appeal. It is essential for the proper presentation of controversial topics that all views be represented, proportionately and fairly. It cannot be assumed that in an area like AP (or any country's politics, or any similar mater of wide interest and extensive coverage,) that the sources will be divided neatly into Reliable  vs. Unreliable. There is no  source whatever in areas like this--even sources which try to present just a factual chronology or something that seems absolutely straightforward -- that can be assumed to be wholly reliable. They may at best be reliable for what they include, but they will always leave some things out.  They may do this through deliberate judgment, or inadvertently. Similarly , there is no source so unreliable that it can not be used for what the person who writes it chooses to say about their POV.   We cannot understand honest sources unless we compare hem with dishonest ones. The key here is proportionality and fair presentation.  Every one of us who is interested in this topic will have a personal POV, and the only way to avoid expressing it is to consciously and deliberately and carefully write for the enemy, something that many find to be very difficult.   Even if we cannot do that. we still need to consider that there may be situations where the opposing sources are correct. If I dislike a particular POV, I will be handicapped in finding positive sources about them, and need to at least not oppose those who do find them. . Historically, sources that are generally despised sometimes are the ones which find the most valuable material, The only way to get a balanced article is to be inclusive.
 * I do not know how close Atsme's politics might be to mine, and in any case I could not talk about it here for I have no intention of disclosing my own--I do know people have made various guesses about it, all of which cannot be accurate. I personally prefer not to edit in this topic area, for the very reason that i do have strong feelings, and though I may be experienced enough to not let them consciously affect my editing, I do not want to say anything that might disclose them. I think it would be good if those who do edit in this area would at least try not to blatantly disclose them either, even in non-article space.  I'm aware that some of the people who have been involved in this matter have in fact disclosed them, to a degree that I think improper. and which might have a tendency  to discourage opponents. I would therefore set a very high bar indeed to a topic ban in this area. The reasoning is exactly the same why the US courts have long held that the rules on free speech and press apply particularly to political matters. These are the ones where we need to be certain to not exclude those on the basis they have too strongly expressed views that we may not individually agree with. Frankly, it does sometimes look as if WP does have a certain political slant. To some extent, this is unavoidable, and will necessarily as in all other topics reflect the people who work here. We should however try to minimize it, and I think we probably need to make an effort to keep partisan political discussion out  of user and talk space, as well as articles; indulging in it gives the impression that it will affect the person's content contributions also.
 * The only significant thing that I think Atsme has done really wrong is carrying on an argument beyond the point where it is productive. Obviously, the same charge will necessarily apply to those on the other side of the discussion. We need to fight any tendency that might look as if we deal with it differently depending on the position. In any case, I think Atsme realizes the reasons why such persistence is not appropriate here. (persistency may be a great virtue  in partisan environments, but not in discussing content in WP).  I'm concerned both that we need to remove this topic ban, and that we avoid making other similar bans. It is never a good idea at WP to look for reasons to discredit  one's opponents.  DGG ( talk ) 07:35, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * @JzG :The repetition here of diffs from earlier years may show problematic behavior then, but it has little bearing on whether it would continue.  At this point, I think repeating them constitutes an attempt to suppress further discussion at the proper places, and possibly even to fix the interpretation the way you would prefer it.   DGG ( talk ) 02:34, 23 February 2019 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that the questions being put to Atsme are straying into rehashing the original ban. If Atsme has turned up here arguing about those same diffs, we'd send her packing for re-litigating the ban; I don't see why we should entertain the same from other editors.  Atsme has abided by the ban, shown fairly mature reflection on her own behaviour and asked that the ban be lifted; IMO we should give her another chance, but at any rate rehashing behaviour from before the ban is not helpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GoldenRing (talk • contribs)


 * Lift the ban. Atsme doesn't have to demonstrate that she wholeheartedly supports the ban, as opposed to believing it was unfair, to get it lifted.  Editors trying to control her thoughts abd trying to get her in line with groupthought shouldn't even be commenting here.--v/r - TP 01:16, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Straw man. Nobody is trying to control thoughts or get Atsme to say she agrees with the ban. ~Awilley (talk) 05:44, 1 March 2019 (UTC)


 * , I seem to remember giving you some advice about your tban, but aside from that my only impressions of you are positive, so I hope you take these questions as they are meant to be taken. I think your appeal addresses quite well the issue of the temperament necessary for editing contentious topics. Nonetheless, I don't think you've addressed the entirety of the issue, and I would like to give you a chance to respond to two specific points. First, re Bishonen: I disagree that the matter is irrelevant. The purpose of any sanction on Wikipedia is to lessen disruption. If, after an admin places a sanction, the sanctioned user runs to ARBCOM claiming the administrator was involved when they were not, that is a serious concern, because it is precisely the sort of time-sink the sanction was supposed to prevent. So, we can't expect you to suddenly be Bishonen's best friend; but I, for one, would like to hear a recognition that an admin who has previously sanctioned you is not INVOLVED just because they have sanctioned you. Second: Wikipedia very much has a bias; we're biased in favor of the preponderance of reliable sources, which may be identified in specific ways. There's is legitimate room on Wikipedia for policy-based disagreement about the reliability of specific sources. There isn't room to "correct" for "bias" that you believe to exist among the whole body of reliable sources themselves (As an aside, if you think I'm targeting your POV specifically, I'm not: the "reliable sources are biased" argument is found everywhere on Wikipedia, including in nationalist disputes, GMO-disputes, climate-change disputes, etc, etc: I have had to explain this ad nauseum to very many users) My point is, in reviewing the diffs which led to the ban, I see several in which you are griping about how sources that are as mainstream RS as you can find among the news media are in fact "biased", often in places where that wasn't even particularly relevant. Regardless of your personal views about said sources, I think you need to commit to keeping discussions on topic, and adhering to the guidelines as they are written. Are you willing to do that? Vanamonde (Talk) 02:16, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Atmse. @ The rest: I'm willing to grant an appeal at this time. I think Atsme has demonstrated more self-reflection than most people appealing a sanction, and has been here long enough to know that a successful appeal isn't a license to return to old patterns. If I'm wrong about that, well, there's enough people watching her actions, too. Vanamonde (Talk) 14:35, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
 * With respect, I think your latest query goes a little too far. Atsme is quite free to consider MSNBC on par with low-grade toilet paper for reliability; that's her prerogative, as long as she's willing to work within policy when discussing article sourcing. I think she has committed to that, certainly to the extent that we can grant an appeal. She doesn't have to discuss her personal opinion of any source, and I don't think you should ask her to. Vanamonde (Talk) 03:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)