Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/İbrahim Bilgen (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. This is right on the line between keep and no consensus, but it's quite apparent to me there is no consensus to delete this article. Courcelles (talk) 02:58, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

İbrahim Bilgen
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

I proposed speedy deletion, however the deletion tag was repeatedly removed by another user, in violation of WP policy. In any case this individual is not notable per the general notability guideline for biographies, and therefore there should not be an independent article about him. This information should be merged into the Gaza flotilla clash article, and the article deleted. Marokwitz (talk) 05:37, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Gaza flotilla raid. The deceased was not notable prior to the flotilla, so this is WP:SINGLEEVENT. WWGB (talk) 05:51, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Redirect to main Gaza flotilla raid, or to a separate page Gaza flotilla raid victims once names and information about those killed in the raid are made available. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fjmustak (talk • contribs)
 * Comment: Here's a list of names (and a few tidbits of information and pictures) of the victims: http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2010/06/putting-names-to-faces.html --Fjmustak (talk) 06:08, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep There are many articles for candidates for mayor and MP in Wikipedia. Siirt has a population of 243,435. For example, Ben Konop, Conservative Party candidates, 2006 Canadian federal election. There are not many Turkish editors in Wikipedia, therefore not all Turkish politicians have pages for themselves, that does not mean this article should be deleted. Kavas (talk) 09:43, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep for now, and merge later: Gaza flotilla raid is not a good place for this. It should be merged to the article Gaza flotilla raid victims. Writing this article is not possible at the moment since Israel military has censored the exact number deaths and their names from the press so far. I suggest we keep the article for now till we get more information about the casualties. One can then create the article Gaza flotilla raid victims and merge this one into that. --DoostdarWKP (talk) 10:23, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete: the individual named here has no notoriety and his inclusion here is being used for personal ends as evidenced by the repeated removal of the deletion tag (in violation of WP policies), which was put in place in explicit accordance WITH WP policy for single incident/event. Other failed politicians had other significant biographical details worthy of entry - Ben Konop, mentioned above, is an appointed commissioner who has implemented numerous policies.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dahveed323 (talk • contribs) 10:29, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment He was a founder of Virtue Party that took 15% vote in Turkish general elections. Kavas (talk) 10:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment if you produce sufficient evidence of the deceased importance/notability by reliable secondary sources (regarding his activities prior to his death), then I will have no objection to and will change my vote, however so far this wasn't done, in my research I did not find evidence of notability, and must assume he is not notable enough. Being one of the founders (out of how many?) of a minor and unsuccessful political party is not enough. Marokwitz (talk) 11:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Virtue Party is not a minor party. It took more votes than CHP which was founded by Atatürk. It was banned by the Constitutional Court of Turkey after taking 15.41% vote in 1999, it should be regarded as a success. The party was the main opposition party. Some of the party members were Abdullah Gül Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan Turkish Prime Minister, Bülent Arınç Turkish Vice Prime Minister, Mehmet Ali Şahin Speaker of the Parliament of Turkey.Kavas (talk) 11:24, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep As per Kavas. He founded a party which received 15% of the votes in Turkey.  Then he was killed in this historical incident.  Obvious keep. First Verse (talk) 12:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * *Comment. Let's be clear that he was not "killed". He died of a heart attack. Cannot find my source. WWGB (talk) 12:53, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Huh? What's your source for that ?Marokwitz (talk) 13:38, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 13:07, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 13:07, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. It must be made clear that he was NOT the "founder" of this party.   Marokwitz (talk) 13:34, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. "A founder of that party", I wrote. Kavas (talk) 13:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Clearly notable, died during an incident which hit the headlines worldwide. PatGallacher (talk) 13:59, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The above comment is not based on wikipedia notability guidelines and policy. Is every person that died in a notable incident (For example, the September 11 attack) notable enough for his own Wikipedia page? See WP:MEMORIAL.Marokwitz (talk) 14:04, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete or Redirect - seems to be a case of WP:ONEEVENT and WP:MEMORIAL. I'm not seeing sufficient evidence of notability in his own right; if it wasn't for his recent death, I doubt he'd have received a Wikipedia page. Robofish (talk) 14:15, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment He is not my friend, relative, acquaintances, or anything. My first page was Neslihan Kavas on Wikipedia, they said that I was her, but I am not. Dear editors, do not call me people who I am NOT. Kavas (talk) 14:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep- the boat death may be the issue that brings him clear notability,, but is is not the only notable thing in his life. Off2riorob (talk) 17:16, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep as a founder of a political party and a pioneering television channel with several reliable sources, although having "died during an incident which hit the headlines worldwide" is insufficient in itself for an article. In relation to the comment "if it wasn't for his recent death, I doubt he'd have received a Wikipedia page", it is simply unfortunate that he wasn't created until after his death but this is often the way. Wikipedia is incomplete in that regard. -- can  dle • wicke  18:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete - no proof has been given that makes him notable enough for a own page in Wikipedia (WP:PEOPLE). But, he is notable enough to get a sentence in Gaza flotilla raid article. --Kslotte (talk) 19:13, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep per Candlewicke. The death in a highly publicized incident does add somewhat to his notability.  Though that by itself wouldn't suffice, the totality of factors is enough. JamesMLane t c 21:02, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:BIO. Particularly: subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject, there are a lot of claims in this, but even if they were true they are passing mentions. WP:POLITICIAN does NOT include candidates. Owning something, is not criteria for notability. Dying is WP:ONEEVENT. Finally: you have to meet at least one criteria, there is no doctrine of totality.--Savonneux (talk) 23:40, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Article is linked to sources. Exists perfectly as a stub Mar4d (talk) 07:46, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Gaza flotilla raid or Gaza flotilla raid victims. Was not notable prior to the event, so this is WP:SINGLEEVENT. The event itself is indeed highly significant, but the individual's role within it is not a large one Maashatra11 (talk) 10:15, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Being a founder of a notable party explains why he was famous. Also the references are there (with some of them published too, that's the most important thing). Minima  c  ( talk ) 10:21, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * He's not "the" founder, he is "one of the" founders. If he's notable only for being one of a certain political party's founders, I'm really wondering where are all the other founders' articles? The fact is that he didn't have an article prior to that event. Period. Maashatra11 (talk) 10:25, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Does "a founder" not mean "one of the founders"? This person may not have had an article until they died but this is so often the case and has happened at least once today. Floribert Chebeya's death has just been announced. He was a leading activist in the Democratic Republic of the Congo since the 1990s but despite this 20-year career he did not have an article either until he died. Andrei Voznesensky is an important poet who died this week (he is on the Main Page). His article looked like this on the day he died and there has been considerable improvement since (even before the Main Page appearance). The appearance/non-existence of an article at the time of death gives little indication of importance. -- can  dle • wicke  16:55, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:WAX --Savonneux (talk) 23:38, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * That was not about notability but about the idea that dead people with no article cannot be ever be notable if they had no article before. It doesn't work like the Nobel Prize where it is a race against time to make sure they have it before they die. The person ought to be notable as well of course. -- can  dle • wicke  01:07, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep I imagine if Elizabeth May or Jim Harris in Canada had been killed in an international incident, that it wouldn't disqualify them from having a wiki page - if anything, the manner of his death justifies further. Obvious keep. KRNasir (talk) 20:01, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep big man in a small town, notable just like Norman Paech, and Aengus Ó Snodaigh. WP:Politician: "2-Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage.  Generally speaking, mayors are likely to meet this criterion, as are members of the main citywide government or council of a major metropolitan city." Pohick2 (talk) 20:05, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete per Savonneux and Robofish. Unless there is evidence that he was more than just "a founder" of a fairly minor political party, I don't think this belongs (keep in mind that political parties are often "founded" by large groups of people who do nothing more than add their signatures to a founding document). Benwing (talk) 23:32, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Because I do not see a reason to do otherwise. Menj (talk) 08:30, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep - I removed that he was a psychiatrist with a doctorate (seems to be a namesake), but the article is useful. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 14:18, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Mr. Bilgen was certainly notable in Turkey prior to his killing; the absence of an article for him on WP is not evidence he was not notable. It is only evidence that there was no article for him. The evidence he was notable, is the fact that he was a public figure with a long history of involvement in local and national politics and media. His death makes him more notable outside Turkey. This article should not be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tirpse77 (talk • contribs) 14:30, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Ibrahim Bilgen died in a noble cause. He died as he strived with free men and women to deliver humanitarian aid to people under inhumane siege. His death will surely be a big inspiration for all freedom activists around the World. Removing this page is just an unethical attempt to bury evidences of the Freedom Flotilla Massacre. Why would someone adamantly insist on removing the page of such a noble man while the page of the criminal Baruch Goldstein is kept untouched? Mamrushdi (talk) 16:52, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah you're completely right. Baruch Goldstein doesn't deserve his own article, because he is a criminal. --Maashatra11 (talk) 08:25, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete Wikipedia is not a memorial. While the incident in which he died was notable, there are no indications he was personally notable. Edward321 (talk) 19:09, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Not exactly the appropriate place for this; I don't know about the whole process for nomination (and I'd probably screw it up), but there's an article for another one of the dead from the flotilla, Furkan Doğan, who is clearly not notable (much less so than the subject of this AfD). If someone could please nominate it appropriately, thanks. 207.216.57.226 (talk) 04:40, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd rather go for keep and wait with the expectation that more sources with arise given more time. There is no reason we can't reconsider it later. Circéus (talk) 05:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep would be notable even without the recent raid. Founders of significant political parties are notable.    DGG ( talk ) 02:23, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.