Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/116th Street Crew


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. –MuZemike 22:27, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

116th Street Crew

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Premise of article and article title are pure OR. There is no reliable sourcing which indicates there is or was such a thing as a "116th Street Crew," yet the term is used repeatedly throughout the article along with "Palma Boy Social Club Crew," another made-up expression. This is an apparent web- or editor-created neologism. Entire article is primarily sourced to non-RS website. Factual accuracy dubious. Many web references apparently originating with Wikipedia article, nothing on Google News. Article should be deleted entirely or, preferably, with neologisms removed, merged with Genovese crime family or Anthony Salerno ScottyBerg (talk) 15:06, 29 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep I believe the page should remain. The article is relevant, the title is correct and it is one of the oldest mafia crews in New York City. The page should have more references but to shouldn't be deleted.--JoeyBR (talk) 20:03, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Joey, this article is about Mafia gangsters in East Harlem, specifically with the Genovese family. There's no question that there is such a history, and many books/articles written about it over the years. My concern is with the existence of a specific "116th Street crew." I have a number of Mafia books myself, and none refer to such an organization. Google News shows absolutely nothing. There is much on the web, but not from reliable sources. I think that "116th Street Crew" may be an invented term or "neologism" that gained currency on the Internet but has no historical basis. ScottyBerg (talk) 22:52, 29 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment further examination of the sources in the article indicate just one source utilized in the article, a deposition by Vincent Cafaro, mentioning a "116th Street crew." That's a primary source and insufficient to justify use of that name for this article. What this article seems to be about is the extensive East Harlem operations of the Genovese family, with "116th Street crew" placed on it as a label. One alternative to deletion is to either merge this with the larger Genovese article, or frame a broader article on East Harlem mafia activities, but that would have to include other Mafia families. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:20, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:08, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:09, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:09, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep - The premise for deleting the page is that the title, amongst other things are OR. However one of its own members, Vincent Cafaro, has said that that was the formal name for the crew. See the second citation to see the declaration Cafaro made about the crew. Some of the Genovese family's most notable mobsters have run the crew. This along with enough third party resources makes it acceptable in my opinion. Needs a lot more citations, though. --Ted87 (talk) 05:01, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep - If the title is what ScottyBerg believes is wrong with the page then, if should be changed to "Genovese crime family East Harlem Crew" (but more accurate title is "116th Street Crew") the crew has also been reported as the "Uptown Crew" (see the reference I added on the page now). Top members within Genovese family and the New York City mafia refer to the Crew as the "116th Street Crew". Most books don’t give a title to a Crew but names are based on geography locations of each crew’s criminal bases. The point Scotty makes that the page should be just about East Harlem mafia members is confusing. There have been two separate crime families operating in the area since the early 1900s, the Genovese (116th Street) and the Lucchese crime family on (107th Street). The 116th Street page is broken down into section about the leader (or Capo) of the crew up until the new capo emerges. This 116th Street crew has maintained control over an illegal gambling racket in East Harlem known as the Policy games (that can be traced back to the 1850s or early). I’ve been working on improving the page and for it to be nominated for deletion is upsetting to me. I understand the page needs more references for verifications but I believe it should not be deleted. --Vic49 00:16, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * What concerns me is the excessive synthesis and lack of sourcing to substantiate the article's constant reference to a kind of single Mafia organization in that region with the name "116th Street crew." This was the largest Italian neighborhood in NYC prior to 1950, and the sources suggest multiple and not single Mafia groups there, even within the Genovese organization. However, even if you remove the other families, a retitling to something like "Genovese Family East Harlem Operations" and removal of OR and synthesis may work. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:04, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The argument that the page is OR is incorrect, in the book "The origin of organized crime in America: the New York City mafia, 1891-1931" by David Critchley he explains that in the early 1900s East Harlem was not controlled by just one criminal organization but various groups. The most powerful group was the Morello-Terranova brothers mafia gang. They began to merge smaller gang into there own based in East Harlem 116th Street, from Little Italy in lower Manhattan to areas in Brooklyn waterfront. From the 1920s- into the mafia war of 1931 (Castellammarese War) the 116th Street Crew remained under control of the Masseria family (Joe Masseria took over the Morello family). When Lucy Luciano becomes boss the family is name Luciano family (later Genovese family). The Crew remained under capo Ciro Terranova, but he would be removed and the group continued to operate in the same area in the same family under Michael Coppola. In the book "Five families: The Rise, Decline, and Resurgence of American Most Powerful Mafia Empires" by Selwyn Raab. Pg 223-226 (Goes into detail of Tony Salerno operating in 116th Street, under Coppola and emerging as the leader, his hang out the Palma Boys Social Club became the name of his crew) Defining a "Mafia Crew" – is a group of made-men and associates operating criminal activities in a designated area under control of one leader a (capo). A mafia crew operates under control of the family. In NYC the five families each have multiple crews each controlled by a capo. When the capo is killed, imprisoned or reties the crews remains within the same family. --Vic49  15:34, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No, you're not correctly characterizing the three pages of the Raab book that you cite. There is no discussion of anyone operating "on 116th Street." It talks in general terms about these mob people but does not tie them to any particular "118th Street crew" or "operating on 116th Street," either by name or even implied The only physical locations cited in this book is to Pleasant Avenue, the Palma Boys social club at 115th Street, and more a general reference to Italian community clustering around First Avenue. There is no discussion here of a distinct 116th Street crew. It's essential that we not go beyond what is in the sources and add original research or personal opinions. You say that there is another book that supports your position, but given the incorrect characterization of the Raab book I'm afraid I just do not think that can be accept on good faith. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:58, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * In Raab's book, the pages were not used to explain the title (116th Street) but who took over after Coppola retired it was Salerno operating from his Palma Club 115th Street. The title 116th Street Crew its can be seen in Cafaro's deposition, but is not explained in any books that Ive found. To toss my other book David Critchley Origins of organized crime is confusing its explains the early history of the Morello family. In Critchley book, he states that Ciro Terranova lived on 116th Street in East Harlem (see pg.117) but to use this as an explanation for the title 116th Street Crew is wrong and would be incorrect. I don't known actually were the title 116th Street Crew originated from but that it is used to describe this crew by members (like Cafaro). --Vic49 16:21, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It's just used by Cafaro, and I don't think that's enough to build an article around. We can't construct an article around one isolated use of the term and synthesis. As I said, I don't think this is an insoluble situation. We can reformulate the article but we have to be accurate in our terminology and not go beyond the sources. I'm already on record supporting a renaming and reformulation of the article as an alternative to deletion. We also need to keep in mind that the Pleasant Avenue area was the main nexus of mob operations, so that might be an even more accurate geographical name. But I think a better route is to be more general in title and concept. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:02, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand your point of using OR, there could be a better title for the page. "Genovese crime family in East Harlem", "Genovese crime family's East Harlem Crew", "Pleasant Avenue Crew", (but isn’t calling the page the Pleasant Avenue Crew considered OR) or "Coppola Regime" (stated in Valachi hearings 1963 See). Either "Genovese crime family's East Harlem Crew" or "Genovese crime family in East Harlem" are my favorite alternative names for the page (I still like 116th Street Crew the best), the intro can be changed to: The Genovese crime family's East Harlem Crew is one of the oldest mafia crews in New York City. Throughout time the name of the crew has changed from the 116th Street Mob, 116th Street Crew, Coppola Regime (regime is short for caporegime) and the Uptown Crew..... --Vic49 17:33, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Genovese crime family in East Harlem would be best because just characterizing it as a single "crew" would seem to go beyond the sources. There was more than one Genovese capo operating in East Harlem, as I understand it. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:39, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright, then we have a consensus the page will be named Genovese crime family in East Harlem, Would you like to move the page and change the intro? Ive have to go to work. Thanks --Vic49 17:46, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * We really need to reach consensus on the talk page of the article, soliciting further comment there. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:35, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment - The discussion on the 116th Street Crew page between Rogermx and ScottyBerg should be brought into this debate. --Vic49 00:16, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Support: I agree with Vic49, the page should keep the same (116th Street Crew) title. --JoeyBR (talk) 14:41, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Joey, your support is already recorded above. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:37, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep: The title as is, It seems everyone is confused with the 116th Street Crew there has never been a split! When Salerno took over in early 1960s he became the leading figure of 116th Street, promoted to Consigliere in 1972 losing his "capo title". Saverio Santora became capo of the 116th Street crew in 1974, while Salerno moved up in the ranks to underboss, Front boss, many soldiers reported to Salerno but he wasn’t the a capo. (Vincent Cafaro says he was made in 1974 into Santora’s 116th Street crew while he worked for Salerno) there are remarks to Bellomo reuniting the 116th Street crew – meaning when Salerno was imprisoned in the Commission case in 1986, Bellomo was the only leader (the true capo). --BronxTom (talk) 23:46, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep: it seems like the discussion is mainly about the title of the page. One point is how not all the mobsters were active on 116th Street of Manhattan; some were active around the area. The reason I support the title 116th Street crew because it has recognition. In the early 1920s the group was called 116th street mob. The early mafia was smaller then today’s mafia and the area has become a crew not a family. --LibertyZip (talk) 00:05, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.