Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1862–63 Barnes F.C. season


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep or merge. There is clearly no appetite for deletion and the nominator has indicated willingness to withdraw, discussions about whether to merge, and if so where, can continue on the talk page ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:52, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

1862–63 Barnes F.C. season

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I feel like this isn't a good case for WP:NSEASONS as it's just friendlies from that particular season instead of actual league matches. I would also like to nominate these articles for possibly the same reason.


 * HawkAussie (talk) 11:38, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. HawkAussie (talk) 11:38, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. HawkAussie (talk) 11:38, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. HawkAussie (talk) 11:38, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 13:08, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. HawkAussie (talk) 11:38, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. HawkAussie (talk) 11:38, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 13:08, 6 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep This is quite possibly one of the worst reasons to delete an article I've ever seen, as it has nothing to do with the sourcing in the article at all. Every single game is sourced. There's a possible argument these seasons should be merged together into one article, but that's a merge, not a delete: there is absolutely no reason for us to delete any of this information. SportingFlyer  T · C  13:21, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment. There are ten Barnes season articles, all listed at List of Barnes F.C. seasons but only five are nominated here. What should be done about the other five which are similar in content to these and are also summarising matches that were not part of a league system. There are two FA Cup ties in 1871–72. I think we need to understand what is being proposed. No Great Shaker (talk) 20:22, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep As the creator of these articles, I'm probably biased but I strongly disagree with the deletion. These are some of the earliest seasons of any club in English football, and have inherent interest as they lead up to the formation of the Football Association (Barnes was one of the leading clubs in the foundation of the FA) and document its earliest seasons, including the radical changes in the rules that occurred in its first decade. Indeed, the 1862-63 Barnes FC season contains the very first match ever played under FA rules (a fact noted in the article).  I can add more prose to these articles as necessary, and would be happy to do so.  While there may be a general guideline that season articles should not consist solely of friendly matches, surely it's taking things too far to extend this principle to seasons that predate the very concept of competitions in association football?   It would mean that Wikipedia would be unable to give detailed coverage of any seasons in association fooball that predate 1871-72.  Shouldn't Wikipedia be able to tell the story of what happened before and leading up to the first ever FA cup? Grover cleveland (talk) 20:51, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment and Withdraw What about merging the seasonal aritlcles because surely we don't need ten pages of friendlies to be all seperate seasons right. Other than that I would be happy to withdraw this. HawkAussie (talk) 21:38, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment One problem I have with these articles is the question of whether 'seasons' actually existed at the time in question. The FA Cup – the first football competition (which would define a season) – did not start until the 1870s. A better solution might be to merge them all (including the unnominated articles) to List of Barnes F.C. matches. The subject is probably just about notable, but I cannot see that individual seasons are. Would Grover cleveland be amenable to that solution? Number   5  7  10:45, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Looking at the dates of the matches in the articles would imply that seasons did exist - I am sure nobody at that time would have referred to "the 1862-63 football season", but it's clear that football matches were only played during the autumn/winter/spring, presumably because the chaps of Barnes were off playing cricket in the summer....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:22, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Merge all into List of Barnes F.C. seasons or List of Barnes F.C. matches. I think either title would be okay given the limited term. I think the idea of a football season was prevalent because it had long been perceived as a winter game while cricket was the main summer game. It's true that competitive football didn't begin until 1871 with the first FA Cup but I don't believe the season was created by competition. No Great Shaker (talk) 13:24, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
 * In response to No Great Shaker and 5, the concept of a "football season" absolutely did exist at the time; there was no requirement for teams to be entering organized competitions.  For example, in the London v Sheffield (1866) article, the following quote is included from Sheffield FC's annual meeting: [Sheffield's loss was ] the most severe defeat it has ever been your misfortune to encounter, but it is to be hoped that you will return the compliment this season  [emphasis added]. The general notion of a "season" was of long standing and by no means exclusive to sport: there was the "shooting season" (for various game), a "social season" at which the upper classes would mingle and introduce debutantes, etc. Grover cleveland (talk) 22:24, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I still don't think the season articles are worthwhile, so I stand by my suggestion to merge to List of Barnes F.C. matches. Number   5  7  12:17, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment This should be closed and a merge discussion initiated somewhere. SportingFlyer  T · C  23:31, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep or merge. GiantSnowman 17:19, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
 * merge I am not sure how important these records actually are but instead of a season articles they could be merged into List of Barnes F.C. matches per Number57. Govvy (talk) 12:10, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
 * List of Barnes F.C. seasons already exists. I can't see what the point of having both that and List of Barnes F.C. matches would be - how would they differ? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:15, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
 * It is there but it's only a bare list of links to the season articles so the proposed merge would completely overwrite it and effectively be the same as opening the matches option. No Great Shaker (talk) 13:46, 12 January 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.