Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1947 Amritsar train massacre


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus is GNG met. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 01:53, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

1947 Amritsar train massacre

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Fails WP:N, almost the entire article is sourced from a single news article from 26 September 1947; several train massacres happened during the partition of India in 1947, this one in particular isn’t especially notable of them all. UnpetitproleX (talk) 07:31, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime, India,  and Punjab. UnpetitproleX (talk) 07:31, 15 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep - it would be a strange world if an event where thousands of people were attacked and killed was somehow not notable. There are contemporary newspaper reports that are easily found and historical studies that put the events in the context of that particularly horrific period. That's surely enough.
 * It may well be the case that there were other, horrendous, attacks in that period that have similar sourcing. I don't see this as any kind of logical argument for !delete, if anything it suggests an urgency to ensure that en.wiki covers all of these events. JMWt (talk) 09:51, 15 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep: More than 3,000 peoples were killed. ​​​​​​​𝐋𝐨𝐫𝐝𝐕𝐨𝐥𝐝𝐞𝐦𝐨𝐫𝐭𝟕𝟐𝟖🧙‍♂️Let's Talk ! 10:18, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. Three thousand people were killed and it isn't notable? On which planet would that be the case? -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:05, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 11:07, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: between 200,000-500,000 people are said to have died in the partition violence of 1947, most in the months August-December, a great number of them in train massacres. There were hundreds of these massacres, and this particular one isn't any more significant than many of them. Might I point out again, that the article cites a single news article as its source. If a single news article is enough for a page, we might need hundreds of such pages for the August-December period. The absolute lack of citations and the absolute lack of coverage in scholarly sources doesn't seem to bother the voters above. --UnpetitproleX (talk) 12:02, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to debate with you here, but once again you attempt the more people died in other events argument which simply doesn't land when we are talking about this many people dying. If there are other horrific events from that period which currently don't have pages on en.wiki then the solution is clearly to create them. JMWt (talk) 12:34, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The article is longer than even the news report that it’s built on. UnpetitproleX (talk) 13:10, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it was foolish on my part to begin this AfD without a prior discussion on the talk page of this article. pinging other India-related editors who are perhaps better aware of the context and can better contribute to this discussion. UnpetitproleX (talk) 13:18, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * At this point, perhaps the article should be turned into an article about Train massacres during the Partition of India or some such thing for which we can actually find more sources than one news article. UnpetitproleX (talk) 13:20, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Agree with the astonishment of those above who see 3,000 deaths as notable. So do I. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 12:37, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The 3,000 deaths are obviously notable. What’s not notable is the coverage of this massacre. Not enough to warrant a stand-alone article. It can be mentioned, with due weight, in an article about the Partition train massacres, or maybe even the Partition of India. UnpetitproleX (talk) 13:23, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * But it isn't the only news article. I see articles from Reuters, (which quotes the West Punjab Ministry of Refugees from 30 September 1947), the AAP ("3418 Dead and Missing, 1328 Wounded") from 25 September 1947, the Chicago Daily News (first line "life is cheap in the Punjab these days..) from 27 September 1947. Not all the details are the same, but to say that the WP is not notable because there was/is little newspaper coverage is just wrong. JMWt (talk) 14:07, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The event the article is about fails WP:INDEPTH, WP:PERSISTENCE, and WP:DIVERSE. UnpetitproleX (talk) 15:09, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You previously said quote "The 3,000 deaths are obviously notable. What’s not notable is the coverage of this massacre."
 * So which is it? JMWt (talk) 16:22, 15 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. I don't see any indication that this subject is notable on its own. Rather it is one of the many violent incidents that took place in the whole partition event. Capitals00 (talk) 15:13, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep The article may not currently cite WP:DIVERSE WP:INDEPTH coverage, but it appears that coverage exists in multiple newspapers internationally and over period of time, suggesting the article can be improved rather than deleted. --Mgp28 (talk) 15:51, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * No, this particular event does not receive any wide ranging coverage in newspaper that exists “over period of time”. All the international coverage are a couple news articles, from within one week of the event. Beyond that it is just one of the many incidents from August-November 1947, and should be included in an article about those events based on how much is WP:DUE. UnpetitproleX (talk) 16:02, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, I've found multiple articles from around September 1947 but agree I haven't found later articles specifically about this event. (It's quite bleak that there was so much suffering 3000 deaths could almost be forgotten from the written record.) I see above you suggested merging this with other train massacres of the period. I can see that that could make a good article but I think we should keep this current article until that any such merge takes place. --Mgp28 (talk) 16:40, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * While you’re at it, could you look up news articles for 1947 Kamoke train massacre, 1947 Haranpur train massacre and 1948 Gujrat train massacre? The first two happened in September 1947, the latter in January 1948. Please post any articles you find to my talk page, thanks. Since we’ve decided all partition train massacres with scant news coverage deserve their individual articles, it’s only fair to create these articles. UnpetitproleX (talk) 17:50, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure anyone decided there should be multiple articles. I thought your suggestion of an article combining information about all these train massacres could be a good one, and that this article could merge into that. But my opinion is that until that time, we should not delete this article. --Mgp28 (talk) 18:17, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep, but my views differ from that of the nom, who pinged me . I think the nominator has a fair point about coverage, but it's utterly implausible to me that a killing of this size in Amritsar would be covered in The Advertiser of Adelaide, and nowhere else. There is certain to be coverage in UK/US newspapers that someone with newspapers.com access, and a little time, could find. There was definitely coverage in Indian newspapers too, but I'm not sure if archives from that period are accessible outside specialist collections. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:53, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I already did that, above. JMWt (talk) 16:20, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete and instead incorporate its contents, in a WP:DUE manner, into a general article about Partition violence/train massacres during the Partition. On it's own, the event of the article has no indepth diverse coverage that has persisted over the years. All coverage seems limited to September-October 1947, there are no secondary sources that discuss the event years—or even months—after the initial September reportage. It doesn't even get a passing mention in contemporary works on the partition, such as Talbot and Singh's 'The Partition of India' (2009) or Yasmin Khan's 'The Great Partition' (2007). Not even in the detailed, Punjab-specific 2011 work of Ishtiaq Ahmed. UnpetitproleX (talk) 18:54, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * You were the nom. You can't !vote twice. JMWt (talk) 20:17, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Noted, boldface removed. UnpetitproleX (talk) 21:22, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NOTNEWS . With this much distance in time, we need to defer to scholarly sources to identify what are notable events and how to cover them in an encyclopedia. Newsreports from 1947 are vastly inadequate. The title of the page is also pretentious in assuming that there was only one train massacre at Amrtsar in 1947. The earliest I have seen mentioned was in March 1947, when an inbound train carrying Hindus and Sikhs was sacked near Amritsar (Ahmed Ishtiaq). Even in September 1947, we can't be sure there was only one train massacre at Amritsar. added a scholarly citation to say that this was definitely notable. But this particular massacre is not mentioned in the source, despite the source being exclusively on train massacres. Neither does the Ahmed Ishtiaq book mention it. I think an article on train massacres of the partition of India would be a worthy topic for an article, because the phenomenon is frequently alluded to by everybody that talks about partition, but not any single of them. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:46, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * News reports from 1947 are vastly inadequate? What on earth is that piece of logic based on? A newspaper report from 1896 is as good as one from 1986. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 06:12, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep, for now; another couple of years  (was pinged).  This is a tricky one.  This article has been around for a couple of years. It cites the Australian-AP report, a primary source.  I looked at my copy of Ian Talbot's Divided Cities: Partition and its Aftermath in Lahore and Amritsar: 1947–1957, OUP, Karachi, 2006 and a related journal article.  There is no mention of this train massacre, but then there is little mention of trains (beyond the last wave of anti-Hindu-Sikh violence beginning in Lahore after a train full of dead Muslims arrived in Lahore from Amritsar.)  The trains were special, ad hoc, trains, that can't be referred to as "Frontier Express etc."
 * But, it's also been a dogma in the partition literature for years that Hindus and Sikhs were killed in Lahore and Muslims in Amritsar. I remember visiting the Jallianwala Bagh, an iconic site of Indian nationalism, where troops or police under Dyer had shot 300 defenceless Indians in 1919, spurring Gandhi to the forefront, but thinking while standing there, that thousands of Muslims were killed here 30 years later and there is no monument. For all the apologies demanded by the Indian nation, and later offered by David Cameron, no apology, not even regret, has ever been offered for the Muslim deaths in Amritsar or the Hindu and Sikhs in Lahore.  For all these reasons, keep for now.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  11:32, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I also remember from British accounts that the Sikh Jathas and the ex-Indian-National-Army men, recently released, which was both Hindu-Sikh and Muslim, but more of the former, were particularly vicious in their violence. So much for the Hindu-nationalist claim that Subhas Bose, latterly their darling, would have prevented the partition. Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  11:51, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The pre-August-1947 violence in Amritsar was predominantly anti-Sikh-Hindu. But after August, as initially the rumors and then news of the award of Amritsar to India spread, the violence was largely anti-Muslim, including that perpetrated on trains.  Here is Talbot (referred to above), pages 46 to 48.  It has more than I had initially thought.  What it describes as the general atmosphere and trend of violence in Amritsar in the days following the boundary award in mid-August, makes such a massacre more plausible, though not definite, and therefore worthy of keeping until more definitive details emerge:


 * "'News was also reaching the city (Lahore) of heavy Muslim casualties in Amritsar and its surrounding villages. According to a US report, Muslim deaths were in the proportion of 3:1 in the city. (Footnote: 73. Telegram 19 August 1947, New Delhi to Secretary of State, Central File 845.00/8-1947, National Archives Washington) ... Mountbatten noted in his personal report of 16 August that armed Sikh bands were raiding Muslim-majority villages in the Amritsar district at the 'rate of three or four each night.' In the city of Amritsar 'the casualties to Muslims have been alarmingly high' he wrote, following the disarming of the Muslim police by the new Hindu additional superintendent of police.(Footnote 81: Viceroy's Personal Report 16 August 1947, cited in Government of Pakistan, Disturbances in the Punjab 1947 (Islamabad 1995), p. 355). The Muslim constables were replaced by ex-INA men, many of whom joined rioters in the assaults on the remaining pockets of Muslim population within the walled city... Muslims had poured into Sharifpura, which was cut off from the rest of the city. In the weeks leading up to independence it had served as a kind of field hospital and military training area for the Muslim population.  ... By 14 August, Sharifpura's population had swollen to 100,000. People sat in the streets surrounded with whatever belongings they had been able to rescue.  This Sharifpura refugee camp faced severe deprivations in they days immediately after independence.  Mass evacuation was organized through special trains which ran twice daily, taking 5000 people in each trip.  'The railway track was not far from Sharifpura', an eyewitness recalls. 'We came to Lahore by train on 16 or 17 August.  Every train came under attack.(Footnote 86: Interview with Dr. Khwaja Muhammad Zakria, Lahore, 23 October 2004.  I am grateful to Tahir Mahmood for conducting this interview.)"

I may not have remembered as precisely, but my general observation is borne out in Talbot. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  16:10, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * PS I have now added two modern secondary sources: Marian Aguiar, University of Minnesota Press, 2011 and G. D. Khosla, Oxford University Press, 1989, along with a primary source from 3 October 1947 (with quote) footnoted in Aguiar. I think the sources are pretty watertight. It is time to end this AfD as Keep.  Pinging  Thanks UnpetitproleX, for bringing this up.  Finding the sources was fun, especially the quote from the British Railway Gazette, October 1947, quoted in Maria Aguiar.  Best,  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  21:17, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * My issue is the precedent this sets. During the August to November period a large number of these massacres happened. The one at Kamoke is covered in some detail by Ishtiaq Ahmed, including an eyewitness account. He cites the GD Khosla report, a Tribune article, and Disturbances in the Punjab, Islamabad: NDC, 1995. If we take bits and pieces from contemporary news reports and modern scholarship, dozens of such articles can be concocted (Kamoke, for instance, can be written right away). Which is why I believe a single article on the train massacres is much, much better. UnpetitproleX (talk) 22:12, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see an issue with a dozen such articles where they are supported by reasonable sources. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:12, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your improvements, Fowler. And UnpetitproleX, I am sure an article about the train massacres will be very valuable, but I also think that having well-sourced information about individual massacres enhances rather than detracts from this. Thank you all, Mgp28 (talk) 00:09, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If you want to create a page on Partition violence in Amritsar, I would have no objection. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:51, 16 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete One of the many attacks that happened in the partition. A mention on a broader article would be fine but a separate article for this incident isn't right. Orientls (talk) 11:30, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment Thanks to Fowler for some excellent digging. I do worry very much indeed that there is a subtext here among users effectively seeking to downplay these events. One article is enough to cover all massacres because there were so many and so many died so why would we condone celebrating every little massacre? is an argument I actually find chilling. I also worry about 'this is complicated so let's just leave it fuzzy'. If these incidents occurred (and they did) and they were documented (and they were) and with a little work we can create accounts of the events (we can), then why would they not merit standalone articles where there is enough depth to justify such an article? Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 05:27, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd also point out that other horrendous periods of history commonly have articles about individual atrosities on en.wiki. I don't even want to devalue the pages about events where thousands died by casually linking to them here - but we surely all have seen and read them. JMWt (talk) 07:18, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep (was pinged). While a train massacres during partition article is an excellent idea, each incident probably deserves its own article as well. I agree that documentation may be hard to find but if there is any documentation (contemporary news reports for example) then we should have a corresponding article. --RegentsPark (comment) 06:17, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete One of the many attacks that happened in the partition.Nothing significant for a separate article and it lacks sources.122.164.114.13 (talk) 10:44, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The above vote being this IPs sole contribution to Wikipedia... Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 10:47, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment I'm getting quite tired of seeing repeated statements that suggest this event is insignificant when thousands of people are reported to have died. I don't know if I've stumbled into some kind of slow motion edit-war vortex about this period of history or something, but in my view we can't continue a calm AfD discussion when this is continually being repeated. I suggest that a passing uninvolved Admin now close this "debate" as no consensus and I'll attempt to formulate a form of words for a RfC where we can put to bed this argument once and for all. JMWt (talk) 10:56, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't worry about doing an RfC. This AfD is going to die a natural death. I'm sure more sources exist.  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  11:04, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * With respect, and in sympathy with your view on this, as the discussion stands it's a solid 'Keep' and I think this AfD could close as such and an RfC could then be opened on the subject of other similar incidents. However, this being kept would be a strong precedent for further AfDs, so the result could and should (as we stand) be the best one. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 11:05, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I think we need a stronger precedent than a simple !keep. I'm thinking of starting an RfC about the concept (ie whether an argument can ever be acceptable to suggest that an event where there were many thousands who died within the context of a wider bloody conflict is insignificant). In my view this is never an acceptable !delete argument. JMWt (talk) 11:11, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would not disagree. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 11:20, 17 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep: per above, there are plenty of sources to outline the main points of the event. Other issues do not pertrain to deletion, but article improvement.  // Timothy :: talk  20:40, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - The issue of notability is due to the single source cited in the article. This is not a ground for deletion but indicates more sources are needed. Both the National Libraries of Australia and New Zealand have contemporary newspaper articles that describe this as India's Worst Train Massacre. So, I am sure there is ample global coverage in the newspapers of the time, but most of it is off-line, so will not be discovered by searching Google. There is a news chasam in the internet during the second half of the 20th century from when copyright still exists on newspapers and the use of the internet by newspapers during the 1990's. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 23:18, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - Sources looks good. Plenty of in-depth coverage. Per WP:GNG.BabbaQ (talk) 11:00, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep The first 3 sources cited in the article demonstrate notability 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 00:04, 21 March 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.