Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1985 Wales vs Scotland football match


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Mark Arsten (talk) 03:00, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

1985 Wales vs Scotland football match

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This match is only notable for one thing - the death of Jock Stein. It has no particular notability as a football match. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 04:37, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 04:39, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in Scottish task force's list of association football-related deletions. &#9733;&#9734; DUCK IS JAMMMY &#9734;&#9733; 06:20, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment It would, however, make quite a good Death of Jock Stein article. Nanonic (talk) 06:30, 12 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Merge relevant bits to Jock Stein, 1985-86 in Scottish football and/or Scotland national football team. I remember watching this game on TV and (unless my ageing memory is dreaming up this part) seeing Big Jock being carried past in the background during a postmatch interview, but I don't think an entire article on his death is merited.  We don't have articles on the deaths of any other major football figures and IMO a death from natural causes isn't unusual enough to merit a stand-alone article........ -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:43, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete and merge per ChrisTheDude - not notable on its own. GiantSnowman 08:01, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - there was a section on this match on Football Focus at the weekend, they described it as "one of the most notable matches in Scottish history" or something. It resonated with me. GiantSnowman 08:02, 16 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep and rename to Death of Jock Stein. The article already demonstrates the amount of coverage given to the event long after it happened (WP:NTEMP), eg BBC radio programmes made in last ten years. The game itself wasn't particularly notable, so the article is not correctly titled, but Stein's death (and circumstances of that) is notable. Merging into Jock Stein would be giving it undue weight in that article. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 08:12, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge to the biog. The idea of a sparate article on his death is totally absurd. All biogs eventually end in a death, and a "Death of...." article would nly be appropriate ifte death was the only notable event in the person's life.TheLongTone (talk) 09:20, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That's an absurd argument; there are plenty "Death of" articles, mostly about people who were primarily notable for events other than their death. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 09:36, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * TBF most of those are re-directs or articles about books, etc, with "death of" in the title. The ones that are genuinely about the deaths of famous people are about incidents like the deaths of Princess Diana, Michael Jackson and Osama Bin Laden, events which were worldwide frontpage news.  I don't believe Stein's death was in the same category as those........ -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:47, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That's because you are only looking on the first page of the search-result, which gives you the most popular pages. In this category you'll find plenty "death of"-articles about people who weren't worldwide frontpage news. --Mentoz86 (talk) 13:07, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge/Redirect to Jock Stein. Don't think his death warrants its own article in the sense that Ayrton Senna's does for instance, or any of the others described above. So merge or redirect to his page is best option. NapHit (talk) 13:04, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This is a notable match in itself. It continues to receive significant coverage for a number of reasons relating to its importance to both teams as well as the nature of Leighton's substitution and the tragic death of the national manager during the game (the suggestions above that the death of one of Scotland's most successful managers by the pitchside during an important national qualifier is not a notable event in itself are absurd). Reliable sources for the match itself will not be hard to come by. Can't help but feel that this nom is a routine box-ticking exercise which doesn't actually examine the event or its overall impact (on both sides). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:52, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep per Thumperward/Chris. Seems to be a particularly notable match in Scotland's history, and easily (already) verifiable. --Dweller (talk) 14:23, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep Extremely notable match and I think Thumperward sums this up particularly well. Blethering  Scot  19:23, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep Article is referenced by a number of reliable, significant sources. If only a few more of our football articles had this many sources. Eldumpo (talk) 19:44, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment As the author of the article, I don't feel I can objectively say whether it should be kept, as of course I think it should be. However, I do feel obliged to comment - the death of Jock Stein is of course the overriding element to this game, and is probably the major reason why it is so remembered to the majority. However, the significance of the game itself as a barometer of the level of Scottish (and indeed Welsh) football is also commented on, as is the previous World Cup qualifier between the two in 1977. I do not suggest that every such game have its own article, but the fact of it being a significantly dramatic game in and of itself, with the prospect of qualification for the World Cup essentially hanging on this one result for both nations, coupled with the tragedy of Jock Stein's death in so public a way, makes it worthy of having its own page, rather than it merely being a footnote. Hammersfan (talk) 12:07, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - this is a game that is widely considered by independent reliable sources to be notable, and passes WP:SPORTSEVENT. --Mentoz86 (talk) 08:59, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.