Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1993 Murders in Prashanthi Nilayam


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. However, the content is a serious issue and needs to be cleaned up. Stifle (talk) 10:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

1993 Murders in Prashanthi Nilayam

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Does not meet notability requirements, plus many smaller problems. D rew  S  mith     W  hat I've done  14:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions.  —  Salih  ( talk ) 14:27, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment In this case, it could be covered elsewhere, such as in the article of Sathya Sai Baba. However, if this had been six murders in a church in Indiana, rather than an ashram in India, would we describe it as non-notable? Mandsford (talk) 16:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Notability is determined by WP:NOTE and WP:RS. Most church killings in the U.S. probably would be WP:ONEEVENT and not get an article, it would probably have to be a pretty spectacular case, there are shootings in the U.S. regularly.  See Category:Spree shootings.  Drawn Some (talk) 21:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Article has serious issues with Notability: This article was written based on material  banned by the Second Arbitration commitee  and as well as contains other unrelaible sources.This material was removed originally from the Sathya Sai Baba article due to Libel and WP:BLP concerns.The following are the list of banned material and other unreliable sources used in this article.
 * 1) Source Priddy - banned in the second arbitration of the Sathya Sai Baba article.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba_2#Robert_Priddy
 * This article references following Priddy sources.
 * Analysis of 1993 Murders Discrepancies by Robert Priddy
 * Janakiramiah, Sai Baba’s blackmailing younger brother, Robert Priddy
 * 2) Source Basava Premananda - Declared Unreliable in the BostonMA mediation discussion on Sathya Sai Baba in 2006. . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BostonMA/Mediation
 * This article references following Premanada Sources:
 * Analysis by Bhasava Premanand of the 1993 Murders
 * Investigate the Murder at Satya Sai Baba's Collage, The Indian Skeptic.May 1998.] Image of body as carried on Indian Skeptic( warning: graphic images ).
 * SATYA SAI BABA. Retelling The Story, Babu R.R. Gogineni Former General Secretary of Rationalist Association of India - Self published document based on Basava Premananda
 * 3) "The Findings" - This source was declared as unreliable in Boston MA mediation discussion in 2006. 
 * This article uses the following references from Findings:
 * The Findings. An investigative report and collection of incriminating testimony complied by The Baileys.
 * The Findings. Terry Gallagher - A Letter to the Baileys.
 * This article is definitely Libel. I request it to be deleted as it lacks notability and reliability. Radiantenergy (talk) 22:46, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete as a violation of WP:BLP, and move any non-violating material to Satya Sai Baba. Priyanath talk 01:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: I strongly oppose the argument that this is a non-notable event. There were many newspaper articles about this event (See http://www.rfjvds.dds.nl/ex-baba/engels/articles/excerpts.html ) and it even appeared in Dutch newspaper (Volkskrant). I will make a list of newspaper article that treat this event. I am not sure whether this article should be kept because there is some good reason not to have the killings in the article Sathya Sai Baba because the involvement of the Sathya Sai Baba is not clear. Then where should be merged to? To Sathya Sai Baba movement? This seems like a better idea. Andries (talk) 16:49, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * THE WEEK JUNE 20, 1993, pages 28-33High intrigue. Deadly power struggle in Puttaparthi
 * The Hindustan Times 9-6-1993


 * The Hindu 9-6-1993


 * The Hitavada, Nagpur 9-6-1993


 * Times of India 9-6-1993


 * Indian Express 9-6-1993


 * Deccan Chronicle, Hyderabad 10-6-1993


 * Deccan Herald, 10-6-1993


 * The Hindu, 10-6-1993


 * The Pioneer, New Delhi 10-6-1993


 * The Times of India 10-6-1993


 * The Times of India 11-6-1993


 * The Hindustan Times New Delhi 9-6-1993


 * Indian Express 9-6-1993:


 * Deccan Chronicle, Hyderabad 10-6-1993


 * Deccan Chronicle 10-6-1993.


 * The Hindu 10-6-1993:
 * The Times of India, Delhi, 13-6-1993
 * Indian Express, New Delhi 13-6-1993
 * Deccan Chronicle, Hyderabad, 9-6-1993
 * Indian Express, Vizianagaram, 16-6-1993


 * The Telegraph, Calcutta 16-6-1993


 * Deccan Chronicle, Hyderabad 26-6-1993


 * The Hindu, Hyderabad 27-10-1995


 * The Hitavada, Nagpur 24-6-1993


 * The Hindu, Coimbatore 18-6-1993


 * The Hindu, Vishakapatnam 1-7-1993


 * Frontline 2-7-1993


 * Indian Express Vijawada, 4-7-1993


 * Nagpur Times 8-7-1993


 * The Hitavada 8-7-1993


 * The Hitavada 9-7-1993


 * Indian Express, Vijayawada 11-7-1993


 * Dalit Voice 19-7-1993


 * Times of India 27-10-1993

-- User:Andries
 * Deccan Herald, Bangalore 20-2-1994

''' Comments: I strongly support deletion of this article as it lacks notability and reliability. '''. Here's the reason why?


 * There is no argument about whether this incident happened or not. At that time when this incident happened it was published in those newspapers.  This incident is already mentioned in the Sathya Sai Baba article.  There is already a section talking about this incident.
 *  Question: Is this incident is notable enough to have a separate article? 


 * I don't think this topic is notable enough to need a separate article for the following reasons. The material it is sourced  suffers seriously due to lack of notability and reliability. . There was no clear indication linking this incident to Sathya Sai Baba. Nobody know for sure why this incident really happened. Who was behing this?. Where there any following court case after this incident? No. My point is that  such incidents happens all aound the world. 


 * Also I would like to point that "Ex-Baba.com" website mentioned by User:Andries are negative attack websites on Sathya Sai Baba. A similar site  "Robert Priddy another attack website was banned by the Second Arbitration commitee  stating that these negative attack websites are full of POV views and cannot be considered as reliable / notable source for the Sathya Sai Baba article.


 * As I said before this current article suffers from serious notability issue as it is based on sources banned by the Second arbitration
 * The article is sourced to several other unreliable sources.


 * I would also like to point that User:Andries was banned from editing the Sathya Sai Baba article for his WP:COI. His views may be biased. I am not sure if he is even concerned using all these material banned by the second arbitration in this article.
 * Radiantenergy (talk) 18:36, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 1. No, incidents like do not happen frequently. Because SSB is the most prominent Godman of India and the prime minister and the president sometimes visit him. SSB claims to be God and is considered so by his followers
 * 2. I linked to newspaper articles on exbaba.com, so these are reliable sources and can be used without problem. I admit that exbaba.com also contains unreliable sources.
 * 3. I admit that most of it is already in Sathya Sai Baba where it should not be because the involvement of SSB is not clear. If it should be somewhere then it should either be a seperate article or moved to Sathya Sai Baba movement. Please note that I did not write that the article should be kept. I only wrote that the argumentation to delete it i.e. lack of notability is flawed.
 * 4. The incident was not only discussed when it happened it was also treated in the BBC documentary The Secret Swami. And Basava Premanand published a book about the incident of more than 500 pages, Murders in Sai Baba's Bedroom It is no longer in my possession.
 * Andries (talk) 20:27, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments:  Notability Issues in the article.: I still think the article should be deleted.
 * 1) Attempts on religious leaders are not uncommon. There was an attempt on Pope John Paul's life. Should such incidents be reported in the Biography of the person. Yes.  This incident on Baba's life has already been included on the Sathya Sai Baba article sourced to BBC.  As I stated before there is a separate section discussing this incident.


 * 2) Unreliable Sources violating WP:BLP:
 * i) Basava Premananda and his book - Murders in Sai Baba's Bedroom:  Major part of this article including the photos is written based on Basava Premananda.  Neither Basava Premananda and his 500 page book were accepted as reliable source in the'BostonMA' discussion. . Wikipedia articles cannot be written based on unreliable sources.
 *  Discussion Link from BostonMA discussion on Basava Premananda's book: 
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BostonMA/Mediation/Sathya_Sai_Baba/Premanand_as_a_Source#Premanand.27s_Book


 * ii) Robert Priddy as a source.  Arbitration ruling banning Robert Priddy: The arbitration stated as below 6.1.1) Robert Priddy is a former Sai Baba devotee who wrote a favorable book, Source of the Dream - My Way to Sathya Sai Baba. He later left the movement and wrote an unfavorable book, The Sathya Sai Baba Enigma. The Sathya Sai Baba Enigma is only held by one large library world wide according to Worldcat; it is published in India and is not available for sale on Amazon.com or Amazon.co.uk. Priddy maintains several web sites: http://home.no.net/rrpriddy/Nos/index.html is a conventional author's web site with links to many of Priddy's works. http://home.chello.no/~reirob/ titled SATHYA SAI BABA stories, myths and deceits http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/ and http://home.no.net/abacusa/ are attack sites containing large amounts of opinion and  what appears to be personal experience and unverifiable original research. 
 * Discussion Link:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba_2#Robert_Priddy


 * iii) "The Findings as a source": The Findings was declared as unreliable by BostonMA in the mediation.
 * This article should be deleted as it is based on unreliable and banned material.  It is definitely Libel as it has serious notability issues. 
 * Radiantenergy (talk) 22:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep but ... BBC has a 2004 documentary that discusses this event at considerable length ( transcript here); the incident was covered extensively by contemporaneous Indian media (as shown by links listed above). So notability is not an issue per se. However the current version of the article is far from good since it includes some very poor sources (geocities and wordpress pages and www.saipetition.com !). All content sourced to such unreliable sources needs to be removed at once, especially given the associated BLP concerns. In short, keep the article but make sure that all its content is reliably sourced. The latter though is a content rather than deletion policy issue, and should be dealt with on the article talk page.Abecedare (talk) 01:53, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep The event in itself meets notability guidlines. The article is not neutral however and needs a cleanup. --Deepak D'Souza 12:42, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. It is full of badly written, probably libellous material. Whatever happens to it, all the unreliable sources and speculation needs to go. It reads as an attack piece. After one mediation in 2007 editors should know better. Fences and windows (talk) 23:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.