Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2005 killings of Christians in Nigeria


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete per WP:V, which consensus cannot supercede. The level of sourcing for this story is so poor that it does not appear that a verifiable article can currently be written about it. Sandstein (talk) 06:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

2005 killings of Christians in Nigeria

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

This article is written in a POV manner, and on attempting to rewrite it with NPOV, I was unable to find any news articles that mention this event in either international news sources or domestic Nigerian news sources (including a thorough search of Allafrica.com). Google turns up many pages that reference the event, however they are all on Christian persecution websites that seek to advance a point of view.

It appears that the event may not have actually occurred, or if the event did occur, it is not notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia. Rjhatl (talk) 14:11, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete. It is common knowledge, among Christians involved with missionary support, that such events do occur on a regular basis in Nigeria. But this article singles out one specific occurrence and does not cite reliable sources. --Blanchardb- Me • MyEars • MyMouth -timed 14:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep The article contains the link ti web pages of news agency that cover the fact Why Delete?User:Lucifero4
 * The sources in question make no mention of this particular event, and they are about other instances. --Blanchardb- Me • MyEars • MyMouth -timed 14:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * There is a brief mention in the first link, and I think the second link is relevant... but... the two links in the article are not reliable non-biased sources. The first is a link to an editorial with a clear POV, and the second is a link to a Christian persecution news site. There are no news agency links. Googling the quotes in the Compass news story turn up only two hits, both to the same story. Rjhatl (talk) 15:05, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, I finally found a non-biased mention of the event from the US State Department . According to them, what happened is that: The Adamawa State governor dethroned the ethnic Bachama traditional ruler for his role in inciting violence between ethnic Bachama Christians and ethnic Hausa Muslims in Numan in June 2004. Later the governor named a new traditional leader for the Bachama. In early February 2005, police killed at least two persons and arrested at least 30 others who were protesting the appointment of the new ruler, claiming that he had no mandate to rule over them. I think this shows the bias of the article and its sources (only two killed, and by the police, not "Muslim militants"), and also helps establish that it is not a notable event. Rjhatl (talk) 17:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Nigeria-related deletion discussions.   --  Beloved  Freak  15:41, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete This is written with bias and cannott be verified. Gtg289m (talk) 13:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein (talk) 07:05, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete; one source seems to describe nothing about this article, and neither are from reliable sources. It seems unverifiable.--Prosfilaes (talk) 15:00, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per Rjhatl's research. So Awesome (talk) 15:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete After trying to find contemporary reports of a massacre in Desma, Nigeria, the only one that I can see made at the time was from the Nigerian newspaper The Guardian. After that initial report, there is no indication of a followup report, no call for investigation, no comment from any government, etc.  An incident where 3,000 people were displaced would attract a response of some sort, even if people were indifferent about 36 persons being killed.  The story gets repeated, as one might expect, on websites that collect reports of atrocities, persecution, etc., but other than that first report in the Nigerian paper, there's nothing.   Finally, there are Christian missionaries regularly sent to Nigeria, and one would think that the murder of 36 Christians would at least lend to a warning from missionary organizations, and I don't see that either.   I think that this is a case of an oft-repeated story that has never been confirmed.  Mandsford (talk) 15:25, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge to Human rights in Nigeria --Pustefix (talk) 18:20, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge to Human rights in Nigeria  Yahel  Guhan ' 02:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete: POV and soapboxing. Merge any useful information into Human rights in Nigeria.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 02:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep The article cites two sources, including the Canadian Free press which seems reliable, to back up its claim. A simple google search will show that this type of violence against Christians by Muslims has happened on several occasions.  I refer you to the following New York Times article.  http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950CE3D8113CF930A25756C0A9629C8B63 another rundown is found at http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/nigeria-1.htm  There is no indication or reason to believe that this event is being made up just simply because it is Christians who are talking about it.  Of course, Nigerian Muslims aren't advertising the events but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.  The article would probably be better served by inclusion in a larger article on Nigerian Muslim and Christian Violence or some similar topic but until such an article is found it should be kept.  I do not believe it should be filed under Human Rights in Nigeria since mob violence is not sponsored by the government or technically a violation of Human Rights by a government organization.  Acts of violence are not so rare that such an event would trigger mass media coverage and the event should not be discounted just because it is only reported by a few organizations.  Blahblah5555 (talk) 05:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The Canadian Free Press does not seem reliable; it ends with "God protect all Christians in Muslim nations everywhere.", which makes clear that its goal is not unbiased reporting. And in fact, it covers this event in one line, citing Compass Direct, which is clearly not a reliable source. If we don't have reliable sources covering it, not just sources wearing their bias on their sleeve and quoting each other, then we can't make an article on it.--Prosfilaes (talk) 11:35, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I reiterate that just because the reporters are Christians does not make them liars. As verified by the NYT, a very reliable source, there have been several events of this nature in Nigeria.  The Canadian Free Press does not have a history of simply making things up and there is no evidence that they did so here.  Mandsford has stated that The Guardian has made a mention of the attacks, providing additional evidence that they did in face occur.  Absent evidence that the reports have been fabricated they should not simply be dismissed because the writers are Christian.  The reports are fairly detailed providing names and numbers of people injured something that is not easily made up.  However, like I said before a larger article on Christian/Muslim violence perhaps using the NYT article as a starting point would be more useful in my opinion.  Blahblah5555 (talk) 14:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem with the CFP isn't that it has Christian reporters or has stories talking about Oprah is the AntiChrist . The problem is that it's an editorial article that makes a very brief mention of the event. Nobody is arguing that Muslims and Christians in Nigeria fight from time to time. The question here is about a specific incident. Your NYT article makes no mention at all of the incident in question. Please see the earlier research I did on this topic- the particular event in question is only reported by one news/advocacy organization in a biased news article. And the US State Department tells a very different version of this story from what the advocacy article reports. I still believe that the incident itself isn't notable. As for merging it into Human Rights in Nigeria, I still think this incident isn't verifiable enough for inclusion, but that there certainly should be some mention of clashes between Christians and Muslims in that article, and have made a note to work on expanding that article. Rjhatl (talk) 21:44, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * On review, I think I agree with Blahblah5555 that Human Rights in Nigeria may not be the right place for this sort of thing. Maybe an article on religious and ethnic conflict. :) Rjhatl (talk) 22:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * A source where the authors wear their bias on their sleeve and make no pretense of objective reporting is rarely a reliable one. It's not about lying; it's clear that the CFP is passing on a report from someone else uncritically, and we don't know anything about who passed the report on to Compass Direct or how critically they looked at it. The game of Chinese whispers tells us just how reliable honest people can be when they repeat something that someone else told them. And even if the original reporter, who we know nothing about, was entirely honest, that doesn't mean they're accurate; it's frequent for estimates of things like the numbers of refugees and dead to vary by an order of magnitude for official estimates, and more than that for people estimating on the run or in a panic. There is no evidence that this isn't just some rumor or misunderstood story or some echo of some other event. It's not about lying; it's about fact checking and skepticism.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep per Blahblah5555. --Shyamsunder 15:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * New Articles Found that disprove the story. Thanks to Ankimai who searched for articles about clashes that were not religiously motivated, we now have three articles that do indeed reference conflicts in Demba Village-- however the conflicts were not religious, but were issues between Fulani herders and farmers. This is a common issue, as herders have to move farther and farther south to find grazing areas. The articles are dated on February 7, on February 8 and on February 9. Rjhatl (talk) 21:57, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.