Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2007 Leinster Minor Football Championship


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was KEEP. The argument that sources are required that discuss the competion as a whole rather than its component matches is reminiscent of George Berkeley's argument that one cannot think of an abstract triangle, only a particular one. I might have found that more convincing if a single example of a good article demonstrating how such a thing could be constructed were offered. None was, but several counter examples of articles that don't were offered. I could not find any myself either: even very high profile competitons such as the 2006–07 FA Cup have only citations to individual games or players. I would not normally give credance to any kind of WP:OTHER argument but in this case, this kind of article is so ubiquitous that if we are to start deleting them then some kind of community debate is required first to establish that we don't want them in principle. I accept that this article is in WP:summary style and that the components of that summary are primarily the individual matches that made up the competition, thus the decision is to keep.  Spinning Spark  20:42, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

2007 Leinster Minor Football Championship

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

I cannot find RS support to reflect notability of the subject of this article, per wp notability standards. It has been tagged for lacking refs since 2007. It is an orphan. It has been tagged for being an orphan since 2010. And it is at the "minor" level (under age 18). And amateur football. Similar minor competition AfDs that have closed as "delete" are the past AfDs for Connacht Minor Football Championship and Laois Minor Hurling Championship. Epeefleche (talk) 16:57, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep: the Leinster MFC is one of the four provincial championships within the All-Ireland Minor Football Championship, one of the highest-profile sporting contests in Ireland - the final is played in front of up to 80,000 spectators along with the Senior final. The amateur status is irrelevant: all Gaelic sports are amateur but at inter-county level the players are of the highest standard. Yes, minor players are under 18, but the county minor sides are where most senior inter-county Gaelic footballers begin their careers. The article could certainly be improved but should stay. Brocach (talk) 17:24, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * What, if anything, in what you wrote indicates that the subject meets wp's notability guidelines?--Epeefleche (talk) 17:33, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Did you read what I wrote? - high profile/part of national championship with huge attendance/major amateur competition/highest standard/minors become seniors... Brocach (talk) 00:29, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. I am referring to wp's notability guidelines, however. --Epeefleche (talk) 01:16, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. Epeefleche (talk) 01:22, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Weak delete - I would expect (for a "high profile" championship) to see quite a bit of media coverage, even local coverage. There is some, but mostly local reports of particular games, rather than coverage of the competition itself. What makes me hesitate is my understanding that the competition has been run in years other than 2007. Is that the case? And if so, why don't we have coverage of years other than 2007? Is there a "parent" article into which this could be merged? Say Leinster Minor Football Championship? Stalwart 111  01:30, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Theopolisme   ( talk )  00:24, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

 
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mediran  ( t  •  c ) 02:21, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep: per Brocach. - Ret.Prof (talk) 19:47, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Brocach failed to explain how in his view it might meet wp's notability guidelines. To have weight, !votes (not votes) should be policy-based.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:26, 19 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Merge to Leinster Minor Football Championship. Not notable on its own, but contains valuable content. 069952497aComments and complaintsStuff I've done 22:56, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Automatic  Strikeout   ( T  •  C  •  AAPT ) 02:36, 25 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep I have added some sources and links. Enough reliable sources available. The Banner talk 20:51, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, those are the ones I was talking about. They are okay, but aren't they all basically routine coverage of particular games during that season? They don't really talk about the season itself, why it was different to other seasons, things that would justify its notability as a standalone season article (especially since we don't have equivalent articles for 2006, 2008, 2009, etc). Also, they are all from the same source (hoganstand, the Hogan Standard?) and so could only really be considered one source for the purpose of WP:N. But they are absolutely the reason my !vote was weak. Would be interested in your thoughts. Stalwart 111  22:10, 25 March 2013 (UTC)


 * What makes me hesitate is my understanding that the competition has been run in years other than 2007. Is that the case?
 * Yes. Looks like it has been going since about 1929.


 * And if so, why don't we have coverage of years other than 2007?
 * Who knows? Everything has to start somewhere. Wikipedia is a work in progress. Maybe this part just hasn't been completed yet.

Some other things worth considering might be:
 * The competition is a direct gateway to the All-Ireland Championship, i.e. the Leinster winner contests the All-Ireland Championship at national level.
 * The final is usually played at Croke Park (the fourth largest stadium in Europe, and the largest not primarily used for association football) so it wouldn't be a small event.
 * A similar Laois Minor Hurling Championship is referred to by the nominator but this is even further apart from the top in terms of grade. Laois is a county, in Leinster incidentally. Leinster is a province and leads directly to the All-Ireland Championship.
 * The use of "orphan" as a reason for deletion is dealt with at WP:ORPHS and needs hardly to be expounded on further here.
 * The nominator questioned why the competition was amateur. In fact the italics suggest they turned their nose up entirely at the thought that it might be amateur, that this is somehow disgusting. The competition can only ever be "amateur" - there is no and has never been a higher grade.
 * Professional sports seem to be a relatively recent, largely American phenomenon and it would be absurd to delete every Gaelic football article on the basis that it does not measure up to this standard. The professional sports article suggests sports like cricket and rugby union have resisted a so-called "professional" approach. Even the Olympic Games have traditionally been "amateur" in their approach.


 * No one has specified what else is necessary apart from coverage of the games. The games themselves are the events that make the competition, that make any competition. This article is reliably sourced. It has more reliable sources than 2006–07 Heineken Cup or 2007–08 La Liga, to select two entirely random examples which would never seriously be considered for deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.194.23 (talk) 19:33, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.