Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2007 Star Mazda Championship season


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. causa sui (talk) 17:19, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

2007 Star Mazda Championship season

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Fails WP:GNG and WP:EVENT and article only shows race results. Contested PROD by main editor who put some refs in that are either not independent or only announce the winning driver (routine news event). --DeVerm (talk) 20:15, 3 August 2011 (UTC).
 * Keep The Star Mazda Championship series appears to be notable, as it receives coverage in Autoweek among other racing and auto enthusiast sites.  If the series is notable, then articles about its individual seasons are valid for inclusion.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 20:23, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment This series has become a recognized step towards Indy series from 2010 onwards. You will find plenty references for 2010 and 2011 but none for earlier seasons, hence it only became notable from 2010 onwards --DeVerm (talk) 20:36, 3 August 2011 (UTC).
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 20:38, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete: Appears to fail notability. Only two drivers in this series have achieved notability in succeeding years, a minor level national series, references do not demonstrate notability and article itself is substantially under-written. The text makes no effort to demonstrate its notability. The column titled 'supporting' is somewhat of a damning statement of it's own, implying that some of what notability it may have is by association rather than its own merits. The parent Star Mazda article is substantially under-referenced. If the parent article is a borderline notability fail, there seem little to redeem its individual racing seasons. Bets relocated to a motorsport specific wiki. --Falcadore (talk) 04:08, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:34, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep season article for a fully professional racing series. "Supporting" does not mean anything regarding the series' notability. It merely means it ran with another series during its race weekend and that the other series is more significant and was the "main event". Do we delete the articles of professional boxers who fight on the undercard rather than the main event simply because of that fact? Additionally, I've added several more citations and exposition to the article. -Drdisque (talk) 02:11, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment, while the additionaly references assist with verifiability, they do not seem to do anything towards notability. Is there anything that establishes Star Mazda's place in the greater scheme? Is it a third or fourth-tier open wheel series? Is it actually fully professional? Team personnel may be professional but are the drivers? --Falcadore (talk) 03:00, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Here's a point of reference for the professional nature of the series in 2007. Champion Dane Cameron won a scholarship to race in the Atlantic Championship in 2008. This package is likely worth over $200,000 USD - which qualifies as professional in my book. -Drdisque (talk) 14:13, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Ehm.. that scholarship is for the Atlantic Championship which is not the Star Mazda Championship. We all know that famous race drivers started their careers in non-notable championships, which means that those drivers get an article on WP but those non-notable championships do not --DeVerm (talk) 14:23, 10 August 2011 (UTC).
 * It's the value of the prize that's important, and what in my opinion, makes the series professional. Would you rather the champion be given $200k worth of potatoes? -Drdisque (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a scholarship which, by definition, shows we are not talking about professional level. Also, the figure of $200k is not mentioned anywhere in the link you provided (no dollar value is mentioned at all) and I think it has no dollar value at all. I did find other sources showing his p[rice money to be $100k plus a Mazda car which is what you might be thinking of. I also found that this series equals the European Formula-3 series in level, which is also far away from professional level --DeVerm (talk) 15:29, 10 August 2011 (UTC).
 * If various European F3 series are amateur then why do most of them have season articles? If the scholarship has no value, then feel free to call up race teams and say that would would like to drive for them with no sponsorship next year and prepared to be laughed at. Auto racing is different from other sports, it requires lots of money to compete in. The difference between amateur and professional is what you can get back for that money. -Drdisque (talk) 15:47, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Drdisque - a scholorship is awarded to persons who are believed to be talented, in order to give them room to learn and get better. The finances involved enable the driver to participate. This in contrast with professional drivers who get hired/paid to come and drive the car. Also, I don't think that the high costs you mention to participate in this championship, make it notable. The fact is that there are simply no sources that comply with WP:N and WP:V because the series is... not notable enough --DeVerm (talk) 19:36, 10 August 2011 (UTC).
 * No sources that comply with WP:V? Coverage from notable outlets like Speed (TV channel), Autoweek, and Racer (magazine) doesn't meet WP:V? -Drdisque (talk) 21:29, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Like I wrote in the nom above: only announce race results (routine news event). --DeVerm (talk) 22:38, 10 August 2011 (UTC).
 * Drdisque - To look at a dictionary definition, to be a professional is to belong to a profession, not to aspire to do so. A singer does not become professional by competing for the cash prize in American Idol. And is Star Mazda comparable to Formula 3 anyway? The article makes no statement as to what level Star Mazda races at. Third-tier? Fourth-tier? Fifth-tier? In some countries Formula 3 is the highest level of open wheel motor racing one can race at, this is certainly not the case in the US is it? How can this series claim to be notable when the article makes no statement as to what level of notability it is? You say the scholarship prize to compete in the Altantic Championship, but there is not statement about whether the Atlantic Championship is a professional series, and indeed the 2008 Atlantic Championship season makes no statement of professionalism or notability either. You can't make a claim to notability by association with another series which is not established as notable. --Falcadore (talk) 19:52, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Only a handful of drivers on the planet are paid significant amounts of money to drive yet hundreds upon hundreds have auto racing as a profession (their primary occupation). In addition, let's compare this article to one you created - 2005 New Zealand Grand Prix. Not only are the Star Mazda cars faster and more expensive to race, the article in question is about a whole season while this article is about a single race. Finally, 2005 New Zealand Grand Prix has no external sources other than the race results. I know this sounds like WP:OTHERSTUFF but my intent is to show that I feel you're holding this article to an unrealistic standard of "notability" that you don't even ascribe to in your own articles. -Drdisque (talk) 21:29, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The New Zealand Grand Prix accurately portrays itself as the premier motor race for the year in New Zealand. The notability comes from the status of the event rather than the competitors. The speed of the cars is not a relevant factor towards notability, nor is their expense. Star Mazda would be signifcantly faster than the British Touring Car Championsip if we are to make irrelevant comparisons, are you going to suggest that BTCC should be deleted on that basis? The New Zealand Grand Prix is the equivalent of the Indianapolis 500 in New Zealand, it's notability comes from New Zealand sources. How does the Star Mazda series compare to its domestic equivalent, which is the Indianapolis 500?
 * I fear you are misunderstanding what is being asked of this article with regards to notability. Notability does not work against a global standard of speed or expense, or quality of equipment. Star Mazda is a purely domestic series, just North America, so its notability is not established against events in Europe or New Zealand. How does Star Mazda compare with North American motorsport? Is it as big as NASCAR? NASCAR Nationwide? Indycar? Champ Car? NASCAR Trucks? ALMS? Grand-Am? Atlantics? Indy Pro Series? World of Outlaws? Does it even rank within the top ten most important series in the US?
 * I feel strongly you need to have a read of the WP:GNG of WP:Notability. --Falcadore (talk) 23:15, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment When evaluating this article for notability, please keep in mind that this discussion is about the 2007 season only. If there are questions about the notability of the race series as a whole, that should be a separate discussion.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 12:20, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep Notability for a racing series (and its seasons) is separate from notability of its drivers. If there's enough reliable sources then it should be kept per WP:GNG.  Royal broil  11:54, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I fully agree with you so how is it possible that you !vote Keep while I am at Delete? We surely must interpret the given sources differently and I am most curious how the closing admin will interpret them --DeVerm (talk) 12:55, 11 August 2011 (UTC).
 * Agreed. Apparently we disagree what is reliable. Speed (TV channel) covered it which is a major cable network in the United States. That in itself in my opinion shows that it's major since there likely are other major reliable sources. Auto Racing Daily covered it and they appear to be professional too. That's multiple. I don't know how reliable the rest are but they count as something too toward the total.  Royal broil  20:31, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep I truly believe the coverage by the Speed Network proves well enough that this event is notable.  Agent Vodello OK, Let's Party, Darling! 01:01, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * A question though - would not that depend on who paid for it? If Star Mazda organisers purchased air time on Speed Network would that make it notable? --Falcadore (talk) 03:33, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed... I don't even believe that Speed Network is an independent source... they even show training sessions etc... whatever the sponsors want --DeVerm (talk) 08:46, 17 August 2011 (UTC).
 * By that standard, every TV network is not an independent source as they all accept paid programming. No offense, but you're making "rules" up as you go along. -Drdisque (talk) 16:24, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.