Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2008–09 Kelowna Rockets season


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Consensus is that the season is not sufficiently notable for its own article TravellingCari  00:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

2008–09 Kelowna Rockets season

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Seasons for individual junior teams are not notable in such detail. As has been the past concensus for junior seasons only an overall league season should exist. The most recent example of such a season falling to AFD is Articles for deletion/2007-08 St. John's Fog Devils season. However there have been example of this at many levels of hockey such as Articles for deletion/2000-01 Huntsville Tornado Season and Articles for deletion/2007-08 Rogue Valley Wranglers hockey team and Articles for deletion/2007-08 Alexandria Glens season. NHL team seasons have been stated to barely meet the criteria themselves. Djsasso (talk) 18:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hockey-related deletion discussions.   —Djsasso (talk) 18:59, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete - season articles are only appropriate for senior teams playing at the highest level of their sport. TerriersFan (talk) 19:08, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I do not agree with this blanket statement. College Football and College Basketball teams have a significant amount of coverage that rivals the professional leagues, as such, these teams deserve season articles as well. SashaNein (talk) 15:40, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * There is a strong case that not even professional teams should have them per Wikipedia is not a statistics database. However, because of such strong opposition from numerous sports fans pro teams have begrudgingly been allowed to have them. -Djsasso (talk) 15:47, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * A good season article would not just be a jumble of statistics. It would provide a summary of the overall season and a short summary of each game, any notable occurences during the season, along with proper references. I want to expand articles for a college basketball conference, but I do not have the confidence that any of it would remain after 18 months. 2008–09 Kelowna Rockets season is a bad example of a season article. Aritcles like 2008 Kansas Jayhawks football team, however, should not be deleted. Until I can be assured that articles like that will be safe, I'm not going to waste hundreds of hours on a project that can be undone by one admin in 5 seconds. I have encountered far too many administrators that would gleefully demolish every single season article, pro and college. SashaNein (talk) 16:01, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Even if it does have such summaries most of the day to day events of a team are not encyclopedic. Wikipedia is not a sports almanac. Any highly notable events during the season should show up on either the main team page or the history page of the team. And being an administrator has nothing to do with anything, the community is who decides whether or not something is worthy of an article. -Djsasso (talk) 16:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * So, let me get this straight, should the 2008 Kansas Jayhawks football team article be deleted as well? Or, is consistency not a priority on Wikipedia? Not to be bitter, but after discussing the Kelowna Rockets season article's deletion for quite some time, I've learned to understand why the Kelowna Rockets season article should of been deleted, so to me it makes sense that the Kansas Jayhawks season article is the same deal, and therefore be deleted. Am I right? — Hucz (talk) 22:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Yup I would support a deletion of that article but it would need its own afd/prod. I mostly only edit hockey articles as mentioned below so I don't tend to go out routing for articles to delete in other sports, but I do watch for new hockey articles so I can tag them for the hockey project which is how I found this one. -Djsasso (talk) 22:52, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom.  Black  ngold29   19:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Do NOT delete I feel that this article should not be deleted for the following reasons:
 * Having lived in Kelowna my entire life, and family members owning season tickets since the Tacoma Rockets moved here to Kelowna, I can honestly say that this Major Junior hockey club/organization/franchise has had a tremendous impact on this town, giving Kelowna a name in premier sports.
 * This is the biggest hockey league (CHL) apart from the NHL, with the Kelowna Rockets alone recieving more than 6,000 people in attendence per game.
 * I have provided adequate references and sources (and will continue to provide more, as there are a lot of websites dedicated to the Kelowna Rockets).
 * Official sources have kept and are still keeping records of these seasons, preserving a significant part of ice hockey tradition in Canada.
 * Why would they be keeping these records, if they are not "appropriate" to even worth mention.
 * The notice that was left on the article page, stated that if the article were to remain and not be deleted, that someone were to cite sources etc. Well I did just that, and still Djsasso blatantly ignored my attempts and stapled the notice on the article again. Am I missing something here? Either put up the correct notice, or don't put one up at all.
 * Djsasso: You wrote that the article failed to meet the requirements for notability and provided a link to WP:NOTE, stating that the reason it failed notability was because, and I quote: "individual team seasons at the junior level are not notable". Well I read WP:NOTE and followed its guildlines and it mentioned nothing of the sort about what you're using as an argument. Even so, it states that with adequate references and sources and credibility, articles are considered notable. What seems to be the problem here? Either you're wrong, or Wikipedia is wrong.
 * — Hucz (talk) 19:20, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * They were two different notices. One was which means if it stays for 5 days it can be deleted without having to be taken to the point of AFD because its assumed that no one objects to its deletion. This is often the first step to deleting an article which it is assumed there is concensus to delete. When you removed it that was you objecting at which point I put up an AFD so that it could discussed. The issue is that the this ammount of detail for a junior team is too much, wikipedia is not a sports almanac. Articles of this nature would better be found at The Ice Hockey Wiki. Please read through the St. James Fog deletion discussion that is linked above and you will see why this article should be deleted. -Djsasso (talk) 19:34, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I read as much as I could, and I agree with your statements on those respective articles. However, the amount of time and effort I put into this at making it "notable" and significant is what we should really be debating. Not comparing a high-school midget team to a contract paying Canadian Hockey League that makes up the majority of future NHL players. — Hucz (talk) 19:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Two things, the St. John's Fog Devils were a Canadian Hockey League team as well. Exact same level of hockey. Secondly, players are not paid to play in the CHL. They just receive honorariums so it is not a professional league. You have put in quite a bit of work on it, I have no doubt, but that doesn't in itself make the subject notable. -Djsasso (talk) 19:43, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Whoah whoah whoah, back up. First you were arguing that the article lacked notability. When I addressed that issue, you jumped onto another argument, stating that it wasn't due to a lack of references, that it was because Wikipedia isn't a stats database. Now, you go back to the argument that it's not notable. I've addressed the notability issue with you, and you agreed with it. Now you're right back where you started.


 * Also, you still won't even remotely touch my point I've been making. That the CHL is the second biggest league to the NHL. Until you do so, I'm not going to debate this any further. — Hucz (talk) 19:49, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It does lack notability, because its a junior level team and this level of detail for a junior team is not notable because wikipedia is not a statistics database. They are both the same arguement, one is the reason for the other. I never said the article was notable. The size of the CHL is irrelevant, it is still a junior league and as such this level of detail is too much for wikipedia. The fact that the league is so big means that there can be a league season article. (which there usually is). But individual team season articles are too much detail and violates wikipedia is not a statistics database. -Djsasso (talk) 19:54, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Wrong again. You continue to derank the CHL of it's name. It's Major Junior hockey, not junior. BIG difference in terms of hockey. You took the postition at stating that the problem wasn't notability, that it was stats. That's agreeing with me that the article is notable. Perhaps you should look at WP:NOTE before bringing up the issue. The sources, references, links, and info is all in the article. Stats is not the only thing in there. So that arguement about Wikipedia being a stats blah blah blah doesn't apply to an article that has things other then stats as it's primary content. — Hucz (talk) 20:02, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Major Junior is still junior hockey. I realize the difference, being that I am part of WP:HOCKEY. The subject of the article is the individual team's season. As such junior hockey (or major junior if you prefer) teams seasons are not notable in this level of detail. It's called undue weight. As for as the stats issue, that applies whether or not the articles main purpose is stats. And I would argue a season page is mostly about stats. Look are most season pages. -Djsasso (talk) 20:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe he was giving specific examples as to why the SEASON lacked notability. Considering Dj is probably the ipso facto contributor to the Hockey Wikiproject, I don't see any reason to question his knowledge of Major Juniors. Considering that the majority of the articles he edits are hockey articles, your argument that is not based in policy and is based on some perceived lack of knowledge of hockey that a person who has done nothing but write about hockey is fallacious. Argue about the article, not the contributor. The fact of the matter is that the CHL is not the highest level of ice hockey in any form. Delete per nom, obviously. --Smashvilletalk 20:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete. I see no reason for this article to exist before the fact, and it would take something unusual during the season to call for an article of its own. A summary of what happens in the season should go at the league's season article and/or the team's; if the events of the season require so much text that they take over the article, then we can consider splitting, but I see no reason to break it out now. —C.Fred (talk) 20:17, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * WP:NOTE mentions that lists of stats is discouraged, and that they need to be put into infoboxes and tables. Everything you've been saying about stats and referring me to WP:NOTE#STATS is inaccurate. Please explain, with Wikipedia's words. Not biased opinion, and what "you" think is not allowed based on what Wikipedia says. Smashville: Taking to someone else's defense based on their reputation with Wikipedia is offensive to me. I have not questioned Djsasso's behaviour, so whatever gives you this idea, is rather disturbing to me. Stay on topic. — Hucz (talk) 20:26, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, my reason for deletion is that the CHL is not the highest level of hockey in any country of any form. Which is what I said. My comments about Dj were in response to your very clear questioning of his knowledge of hockey. And, again, argue the article, not the contributor. The point is, the CHL is not the highest level of ice hockey. Precedent has been that teams that do not perform at the highest level do not have articles on individual seasons. --Smashvilletalk 20:34, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment As much as I love junior hockey, I also doubt very much that a junior team season is notable enough for Wikipedia's main encyclopedia. Yes, even Major Junior.  That said, there is an ice hockey wikia that is maintained by another big junior hockey fan.  You might consider moving your work to here, where I am completely certain that the article will be accepted. Resolute 20:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Is there any way I can incorporate the article into a "History of Kelowna Rockets" or "List of Kelowna Rockets seasons", or something, without erasing the article in it's entirety? — Hucz (talk) 20:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not completely certain of the rules pertaining to linking a wikia article to a Wikipedia article, but I personlly see no reason why it could not be placed as an external link from the main Kelowna Rockets article, or a proposed one for History of the Kelowna Rockets. It would seem to be a relevant link to me. Resolute 20:34, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I can live with that. — Hucz (talk) 20:36, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not unprecendented to do. I know that, for example, Memory Alpha and Wookieepedia are linked from Star Trek and Star Wars articles, respectively. —C.Fred (talk) 20:38, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think anyone would have a problem with it. It's not advertising and it would specifically be written as a companion piece to the WP page. --Smashvilletalk 20:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I know we have done it with another deleted hockey article but I can't think of which one it was. Would be fine to me as an external link. -Djsasso (talk) 20:42, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Hucz, is it okay with you if we delete the article? If you set up an e-mail address, the content can be sent to you. --Smashvilletalk 20:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * We don't need to rush to delete the content, the AfD will take care of itself in 5 days. Hucz can copy and paste the material from this article into a new one at the Wikia at any time before then. Resolute 20:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Yup, he already copy and pasted it, beat me too it. -Djsasso (talk) 20:51, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Okiedoke...just trying to avoid GFDL stuff by it being in two places. --Smashvilletalk 20:53, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Hucz is the sole editor of the content, so if he moves it himself, there are no GFDL concerns. Resolute 21:01, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * That is why I keep you around...--Smashvilletalk 21:23, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete as non-notable junior team season article, plain and simple.  Grsz  talk  21:51, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.