Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2011–12 FK Željezničar season


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. I'm closing this as no consensus as this is fast turning into a mess. There are a number of keep votes but they concern themselves mainly with whether the league is professional or not. That is not relevant, NSEASONS only says club seasons for top professional leagues can normally be created because they usually satisfy GNG. Furthermore it also says that articles should be mainly sourced prose and in most instances here they are not. However, some work has been done on some articles which indicates GNG, which complicates matters, although number are just stat dumps with a couple of references. Finally, the nominators decision to try to withdraw the nomination very late on further complicates things.

This closure should not be taken as affirmation that any of these articles are notable, more that a decision on such a large number is now very hard to make. I would recommend any editor who still questions the notability of any of these articles to renominate individually and for editors in those discussions to focus on GNG, not simply whether the league is professional or not. Fenix down (talk) 19:56, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

2011–12 FK Željezničar season
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

The article fails WP:GNG as the league wasn't an professional league until 2016-17. I will also be nominating these articles for the same reason.

HawkAussie (talk) 05:33, 13 June 2019 (UTC) Withdrawn by nominator as the leagues seem to be professional and will probably not break GNG. I reckon the best reasoning is to withdraw this nomination. HawkAussie (talk) 08:48, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. HawkAussie (talk) 05:33, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bosnia and Herzegovina-related deletion discussions. HawkAussie (talk) 05:33, 13 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete, Wikipedia is a not a stats collection. Through I am open to merger to a single article that could pass notability, if someone can make such a case. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:06, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Redirect to FK Željezničar Sarajevo per WP:NSEASONS and WP:NOTSTATS. I don't see the lack of professional status as being particularly germane here. While NSEASONS does suggest that teams in top professional leagues qualify for individual season articles, it doesn't require professionalism. Instead, it has a fairly lengthy section considering notability for a specific subset of non-professional sport (i.e., US college sport) which concludes that there are certain circumstances in which they can be notable. In this particular case, we have a national championship winning season in both the country's and the world's most popular sport, with a league that was ranked higher by UEFA than some fully professional leagues. Lack of professionalism should not be a factor here. However, the article in its current state is nothing but stats and records, which certainly is a factor. This should be redirected to the parent article for now, but without prejudice on recreation if anyone cares to research and write a proper prose version of the article. Lowercaserho (talk) 07:57, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 09:07, 13 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete all - per NOTSTATS and NSEASONS. No need to redirect. GiantSnowman 09:08, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Weak keep all The nomination itself has a fatal flaw - WP:GNG has absolutely nothing to do with the professionalism of the league, which is a rough guideline from WP:SEASONS, which also allows for top level articles. The Željezničar articles would be fine if they had properly referenced prose. I've added a very brief bit of sourced prose to the 2011–12 season, which they won the Bosnian double and which clearly passes WP:GNG. There was a college seasons article I nominated for failing WP:NOTSTATS which was kept since the season ultimately passed WP:GNG I'm trying to find. I think it's Articles for deletion/1979–80 Notre Dame Fighting Irish men&. Basically, I'm a weak keep for most of these, even though all of them currently fail WP:NOTSTATS, based on that policy. SportingFlyer  T · C  17:23, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep all, do not delete any - These seasons were all seasons in top-flight of Bosnian football, and deleting them would go against WP:GNG, as technically, these were all significant seasons in these clubs' history. Technically speaking, most seasons of any sports team (notably those where they finish mediocre in all competitions) would fail WP:NOSTATS, however, nobody is going to delete them as they all have some significance to the team's history. The argument that these seasons weren't "professional" is flawed as the Top 4 teams automatically qualified for European competition, meaning that UEFA recognized the winners as the domestic champions and allowed them (and the 3 teams that finished below them) to compete in arguably, the most professional soccer competition in the world. I also agree with SportingFlyer that the arguments presented as to why the articles should be deleted are flawed. Many other teams like FC Barcelona, Arsenal F.C., and FC Bayern Munich have articles about nearly every season that they have ever played, and some of those articles about a specific season would fail WP:NOSTATS. So instead, I recommend that we fix the glaring issues in these articles, so that they aren't considered "delete-worthy" again. KingSkyLord (talk) 01:48, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - I think these AfDs may need to be broken down into smaller batches. For example, I suspect the main nomination, 2011–12 FK Željezničar season, may likely pass WP:GNG given that the team won the domestic double and competed in the Europa League. The lack of prose is not a reason for deletion given that Deletion is not cleanup. Kosack (talk) 05:58, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete all per WP:NSEASONS failure. Number   5  7  10:36, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. Nomination appears incorrect - it's not difficult to quickly find significant Bosnian media coverage for some of these seasons - even some English coverage such as this. While the WP:NSEASONS guideline may not be met, it's not relevant given that WP:GNG is easily met. Articles should be improved and expanded, not deleted. Nfitz (talk) 15:51, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep all - most likely we are all aware that Wikipedia isn't for collecting and archiving statistical data, but to simply reiterate that certainly isn't much of an argument here. I am not sure how exactly we are suppose to be aware or how we "know" that Premier League of Bosnia and Herzegovina became "professional" only since 2016? That's absolutely incorrect! I had dispute several years ago over issue of this particular league professional status with some user (with admin's prerogatives) claiming how league wasn't professional, although I don't remember his exact arguments mine were quite simple - beside the fact that Yugoslavian First League became fully pro in the 1960s, and that all successor leagues (Slovenia, Serbia (w/t Montenegro at the time), Macedonia, Croatia, and Bosnia) changed absolutely nothing in regulating of their own respective competitions, I was able, and I still am, to find online various written official documents, academic research and legal papers, or simply online text documents discussing regulation of professionalism in Croatia, Serbia and most importantly Bosnia. Now, I really hope that we already moved beyond doubts on professional status of all leagues successors of former Yugoslav First League since that time, and that we learned that Premier League of Bosnia, just like top flights in all these other countries of former Yugoslavia, is professional since 1960s. So my only problem, though easily solvable, would be lack of prose in some of the articles that I checked, and (maybe) need for (perpetual) improvement of refed sources, but notability shouldn't be questioned just because some don't like it, or aren't interested, or consider country's competition unimportant and too obscure from his/her perspective. We should keep Seasons and tagged them if needed properly for improvement.-- ౪ Santa ౪  99°  17:43, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I'm relisting this even though I feel the stronger arguments are for delete. The arguments for keep are lengthy but ultimately not closely linked to guidelines. Rather than focussing on whether or not the league is professional or not, I would encourage editors to cite specific sources that show both GNG and that sourced prose can be added to these articles per NSEASONS as the current NOTSTATS concerns are valid. Had there not been such a large number of articles up for deletion, I would have closed this now.
 * Keep all Because some of this articles was already nominated for deletion, about 5 years ago. Bosna Sarajevo (talk) 21:37, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep all - per above, especially per KingSkyLord. These are professional teams now anyways. Inter&#38;anthro (talk) 22:52, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fenix down (talk) 06:54, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment It's been slow going, not least because I haven't been on Wikipedia as much, but there's plenty of Bosnian language content to update these articles with once the archives of some of these websites are found. Maybe not all of these seasons are notable, but I'm starting to WP:HEY the "parent" article, and it should clearly pass WP:GNG. Also, I'm convinced not every Bosnian Premier League team's season would be notable on WP:GNG grounds, but Željezničar at the very least is well covered. SportingFlyer  T · C  03:59, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment There are claims in the some of the delete comments that WP:NSEASONS isn't met. However this is not true. This also came up in the previous 2014 AFD. NSEASONS says Articles can be created on individual seasons of teams in top professional leagues. And these articles are (I think) all for the top level professional soccer - Premier League of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The claim in the nomination statement by User:HawkAussie that the league wasn't an professional league until 2016-17 is not correct, and in contrast to the AFD discussion in 2014. The league may have not been fully professional until 2016, but it was professional - and that's what NSEASONS is referring to. Nfitz (talk) 18:34, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Not correct - when it comes to 'professional' at WP:NSEASONS, it actually means (like our player notability requirements) "fully-professional". GiantSnowman 13:45, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Digging through various archives and previous discussions, I don't see any conclusion that the "professional" in NSEASONS means fully-professional. This has come up before, such as in the previous AFD, where even you didn't refute this for the month after the same claim was made. I do see historic discussion about whether top professional applies to the semi-pro 5th level of English football - but that focused more on "top" than "professional". Attempts have been made to make it fully-professional, but have been reverted in the past. In particular, the current wording dates back to 2010, before which it was only top leagues - looking at the accompanying discussion, there doesn't seem to be any consensus that it's fully-professional.
 * Beyond that, let's go back to the reason to have standards such as WP:NSEASONS, which is primarily, so we don't waste lots of time debating the notability of topics that invariably are notable, with GNG sources available. As noted in the previous comments, six additional GNG sources have now been added to 2011–12 FK Željezničar season, significantly improving the article. Articles should be improved, as GNG sources are not difficult to find - which shouldn't be a surprise for teams that played at the top level, were historically fully-professional, and are currently fully-professional. Nfitz (talk) 00:28, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep all Bosnian league is a direct successor of the Yugoslav first league where for example FK Zeljeznicar reached semi finals of UEFA Cup 1986 season. Bosnian league is a professional league and is a member of UEFA. BiHVolim (talk) 20:51, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 16:56, 27 June 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.