Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2018 Moscow–Constantinople schism


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep. No rationale for deletion is presented, only for a move. The nominator (and only supporter) was blocked for their various personal attacks. (non-admin closure) User:力 (power~enwiki, π,  ν ) 19:44, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

2018 Moscow–Constantinople schism

 * – ( View AfD View log )

There is no schism between Constantinople and Moscow. Constantinople is the head of the Christian Orthodox Church and Moscow is an independent church, like all other, but under the Ecumenical Orthodox Church of Constantinople. There was an attempted Moscow schism on 2018 for reason to oppose the recognition of Ukrainian Church as Autocephalus. Until recently the Ukrainian Church was under the responsibility of Moscow, however according to the Orthodox rules and laws, if a state request to become independent under their own state authority, this right should be granded. Technically and literally this is none of Moscow business other than to meddling with Ukrainian Church affairs, of course for matters of control and power. This is not the first time Moscow try to undermine the Ecumenical Orthodox Church or even other independent churches.

The title of this article is clearly misleading and not true. Used for matters of propaganda which could be linked to Moscow's troll paid activity as we are all aware of.

There is no official statement of any schism either by the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople and all Orthodox Churches, or from the Moscow Church.

(2021) Ecumenical Patriarch: There is no schism in Orthodoxy https://orthodoxtimes.com/ecumenical-patriarch-there-is-no-schism-in-orthodoxy-i-have-no-right-to-take-a-step-back/

(2018) Russian Orthodox Church warns of violence and schism over Ukraine https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/russian-orthodox-church-warns-of-violence-and-schism-over-ukraine-1.3631073

Moscow have repeatedly tried and failed to overpower the Christian Orthodox Head in order to take over, in multiple attempts for the past 50 years.

A Schism between Constantinople and Moscow technically is not possible. There could be a Schism between Christian Orthodoxy and Moscow as a matter of scientific terms and fact.

It is advisable the article to be renamed as 2018 Moscow attempted schism or breakaway from the Christian Orthodoxy. However the article even if with impovment to the title, is hugely misleading and false.

There is no schism. More references available if necessary, definitely more than that exists in google search. --Charalampe (talk) 11:41, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Speedy Keep, WP:SKCRIT#1. The nominator at best makes a case for a rename, not deletion. The topic of the 2018 schism, rift, dispute, or what have you is easily notable and covered by reliable sources: Moscow weighs up the consequences of Orthodox Church schism,, , https://www.vox.com/2018/10/17/17983566/russia-constantinople-ukraine-eastern-orthodox-schism-autocephaly. There is some recent denial from the Constantinople side that there is a schism (Orthodox leader denies schism crisis claims), but that does not make the topic any less notable.-- Eostrix  (&#x1F989; hoot hoot&#x1F989;) 11:48, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment: you created the article with the title "Moscow–Constantinople schism" (I then renamed it to "Moscow–Constantinople schism (2018)"). I inform you that  indirectly states the word "schism" in the article's title might have been due to some people being in some ways involved with "Moscow's troll paid activity". Veverve (talk) 11:55, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Clearly for Deletion. As suggested even a proper change to the title, the article will still remain misleading. The topic indeed is notable but the article false. Unless the topic remains within the scope of the Autocephalus now Church of Ukraine and the related events, this article must be deleted. I present fact, other than speculations, the Othodox Times is specialized in Orthodox Church Journalism and offers a statement from the Ecumenical Orthodox Partiarch of all Orthodox Churches which states that there is no schism, and this makes it a fact. If there is a statement from the head of Moscow Church that states there is a schism or breakaway of Moscow Church from the Orthodox Church, then this could also be a fact, and this makes a dispute on the topic. Nonetheless to say, still in that case, this current wikipedia article will be misleading and false. The topic is notable, but the article is vague, misleading and innacurate. Keep in mind i present facts and official statements versus speculation and gossips of tabloids on the matter. --Charalampe (talk) 12:14, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Charalampe, if the topic is notable, the article should not be deleted. It should be corrected. Those are the kinds of things that should be discussed on the article's talk page, not in a deletion discussion. The talk page is at Talk:2018 Moscow–Constantinople schism. —valereee (talk) 12:18, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep: There is no official statement of any schism either by the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople and all Orthodox Churches, or from the Moscow Church. Well, the article states Met. Hilarion, head of the DECR stated: "As of today, we have very clearly stated: the fact that the Patriarchate of Constantinople has recognized a schismatic structure means for us that Constantinople itself is now in schism. It has identified itself with a schism. Accordingly, we cannot have the full Eucharistic communion with it." Hilarion added that when members of the Russian Orthodox of Moscow Patriarchate pay visits to the monasteries on Mount Athos, they cannot participate in the sacraments (for example, receive communion), and promised punishment to any priests who participate in the divine services together with the local clergy" (emphasis added). This is a quote from the official DECR website here.
 * Moreover, multiple sources in the lede uses the word schism; other sources I can give off the top of my head are this one, and this one who use the term "raskol" which means "schism" in this context. Veverve (talk) 12:19, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete: There is an Official Statement of the Ecumenical Orthodox Patriarch the head of all Orthodox Churches which states there is no schism Here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charalampe (talk • contribs)
 * Please !vote once, your nomination counts as a !vote.-- Eostrix  (&#x1F989; hoot hoot&#x1F989;) 12:45, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The EP is no the "Head" of the E. Orthodox Church, nor the official spokesman of the E. O. Church. He is the head of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and the primus inter pares (a purely honorific rank according to most E. O.) of the other autocephalous E. Orthodox Churches; he is nothing more. Moreover, why should we take his word for it on any matter? Veverve (talk) 12:53, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment: I'll point out the nominator is very new and quite likely doesn't know how to go about getting an article's title changed/content changed, maybe thought deletion was the only way. Please don't bite. —valereee (talk) 12:16, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment: The rules for Deletion Process are very clear and this article is eligable for Deletion.--Charalampe (talk) 12:29, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Vandalism: User Veverve changed my text, see Here and could it other changes than that. Please do not Vandalize. --Charalampe (talk) 12:41, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Adding an unsigned template to the end of your unsigned comment is not vandalism. Please see WP:NOTVAND; Wikipedia uses a stricter definition of the word vandalism, and none of the times you have used the word have been actual vandalism. Please also don't remove the comments of others, as you did here. - Aoidh (talk) 12:48, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep - Per Veverve. Plenty of sources in the article to support the content, which easily meets WP:GNG. - Aoidh (talk) 12:37, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete The Head of the Orthodox Church and of all Orthodox says that there is no schism. I believe his statement is a fact and he is the source. Those you mentioned as sources are rather suggestions and included no official statement that states of a Schism. So the source in an institution or a government is suggestions of tabloids or the statements of the leaders?! I believe the statement of these institutions and their leaders. In this case we have a clear statement that states there is no schism. This coming from the head of the Orthodox Church, this is a fact. --Charalampe (talk) 12:53, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 13:36, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 13:36, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 13:37, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 13:37, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 13:37, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Snow Keep The subject is clearly, self-evidently notable enough for an encyclopedia article about it. Disputes over terminology, naming, and other issues are part of the normal editing process, and should be carried out via discussions on the article talk page and not through the deletion process.  This AFD nomination clearly appears to be out-of-process and there is no chance that an article in this state of development will be deleted.  Recommend speedily closing this as keep per WP:SNOW. -- Jayron 32 16:35, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


 * (Painfully) Strong Keep Yea, this user is having a very bad time of instead of nominated the page for deletion, just talk about of reconsider to renaming the page or something like that to pleased the user, at the 2018 Moscow–Constantinople schism's talk page. But the writing sounds both painfully and hilariously insane (as well as immature, than my worst days in the past years) of why for deleting it. And because of this the user's acting (including its own talk page doesn't helping its own case), I will suggest to keep it, until some other user demand of change/renaming the page itself at it's talk page. Chad The Goatman (talk) 19:26, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.