Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2018 Schoharie New York traffic accident


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. With news coverage from all over the globe, this is never going to fail our notability guidelines. Obviously, comments regarding the NTSB investigation and possible further legal issues are WP:CRYSTAL at this stage, however it is clear that we do tend to keep articles about road transportation accidents that are out of the ordinary. Therefore, I do not see the point in keeping this AFD open any longer. Black Kite (talk) 23:16, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

2018 Schoharie New York traffic accident

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

There are hundreds of car accidents in any country in the world everyday. How is this notable? ASF23 (talk) 18:50, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment If it is the number of deaths that makes this notable, I suggest that you do a quick google news search with keywords "bus+gorge". --ASF23 (talk) 19:08, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * This involved a stretch limo, not a bus, and it didn't go into a gorge, just a small ravine (the area is on the Schoharie Creek's flood plain). Daniel Case (talk) 04:03, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete unfortunate traffic accident involving private vehicles. No long term signifiance. --19:45, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 20:04, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 20:04, 7 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete As stated, crashes on the roads are hardly a rare occurrence, and while the death toll here is high, nom is right to point out crashes with a large number of casualties are also unfortunately fairly common. The World Health Organization reports that more than 3,400 people die every single day on the roads. Wikipedia is not a news source. AusLondonder (talk) 20:16, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:LASTING. Long term significance seems highly doubtful. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:40, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep a significant death toll, particularly for a developed country. --LaserLegs (talk) 20:49, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete While tragic, an accident is not notable. I think we should wait for the investigation, see if this leads to any policy changes, and then decide whether an article is necessary or not. --regentspark (comment) 20:56, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * A specific statement of no prejudice against recreation would be reasonable, although cause/effect incidents are always tenuous as to providing separate articles. Nosebagbear (talk) 20:58, 7 October 2018 (UTC)


 *  Delete Neutral - I have to agree that, while high, the death toll is not sufficiently unique - even in the USA (only biggest since 2009) - to make it warrant its own article. While there's no hard and fast point at which this would change (and within USA comparisons only would certainly be reasonable) I feel on this timescale this is a reasonable judgement. Nosebagbear (talk) 20:57, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * A demonstration of precedents that indicate that largest incident in a decade is sufficiently unique (if that phrase makes sense) to justify it. I personally am unsure, but my viewpoint would contradict established precedent, without sufficiently clear policy to support me, I'm reticent to stand against it at this point. Nosebagbear (talk) 6:18 pm, Today (UTC+1)


 * Delete - Unspeakably tragic, but otherwise not notable outside of the high death count, which does not justify this article's existence. Spengouli (talk) 21:05, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete - Only thing that stands out is the high death toll, it is nothing more than a common cause of a common accident caused by simple human error. Tragic, but nothing unique. Kirliator (talk) 21:46, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete - Fails WP:LASTING, similar to most small-scale shootings in the US, as others above have noted, the only real thing that stands out is the unusually high death toll. SamaranEmerald (talk) 22:41, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Question while I understand WP:OTHERSTUFF, and this article is clearly doomed, can someone please tell me why the 2018_Hong_Kong_bus_accident is notable, but the 2018 Schoharie New York traffic accident isn't? You can leave a note on my talk page if you have an opinion, it's not my intention to hijack this discussion. Thanks. --LaserLegs (talk) 22:57, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep, this is notable due to the significant loss of life—highest in the U.S. in a decade. -- Tavix ( talk ) 23:08, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * ...And? What else makes it significant? Hornetzilla78 (talk) 23:48, 7 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep per Tavix. Notable as the deadliest US traffic accident in a decade. -Zanhe (talk) 23:26, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * ...And? What else makes it significant? Hornetzilla78 (talk) 23:48, 7 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete other than the “significant loss of life", this is nothing more than a standard, everyday car accident. No long-term impact. Hornetzilla78 (talk) 23:48, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * ...And? How do you know there is no long-term impact? --LaserLegs (talk) 00:16, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * It sounds like both of you are turning into TRM. SamaranEmerald (talk) 01:37, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep - 20 people died, that's not common for a car crash. Deadliest transport accident in the USA in almost 10 years. 1779Days (talk) 00:27, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep the arguments that the nature of the accident (two-car collision) make the article inherently non-notable are absurd, and quite frankly, border on disrespectful. Would their death be deemed more notable if they had died in a plane, or in a boat? There are DOZENS of other crashes with similar or less amounts of media coverage which have found no objection here - 2018 Hong Kong bus accident, 1999 Deutschlandsberg bus crash, 2017 Verona bus crash, Måbødalen bus accident, Grafton bus crash, 2009 Taconic State Parkway crash, Kalamazoo bicycle crash, I could go on. If this article is deleted, it sets a precedent that all or many the articles preceding - which received similar amounts of media coverage, and which each had distinct lasting impacts on how the respective industries involved are regulated - should all be deleted. To be clear, none of these articles should be deleted simply because they involved automobiles. If they have significant media coverage (this article does), and can be found to have a lasting impact on the social consciousness of the region it occurred in, or on the industries involved (limo industry), then it should clearly be notable just as an airline accident would be. We can't know if the latter qualifier is true, because mere hours have passed since the incident! However, the NTSB is investigating and all indicators seem to tell us that there is a high probability some meaningful change will be enacted following this tragic incident. For all these reasons, strong keep. Flipand Flopped  ツ 00:28, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Strong Delete - I disagree with the above user, the NTSB has said that with MANY incidents in the past, yet little to nothing ever happens. As AusLondoner states, accidents like these happen frequently and are far more common than anyone thinks, the “keeps” are not convincing and are just repeating the the same rationale each time. Python Dan (talk) 00:43, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * So we should delete the article based on your subjective opinion that NTSB investigations and recommendations are ineffective? The other part of your statement is just patently false - this is the most lethal transportation accident to have occurred in the USA for nearly ten years, and the extensive media coverage reflects that. By mere virtue of that, this accident is not reflective of a 'common occurrence'! In fact, accidents this devastating, which have received this amount of coverage, have almost always received an article in the past because they ARE particularly notable, as I did mention. Flipand Flopped  ツ</b> 01:12, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Accidents like these get widespread coverage initially, but fall out of the public eye several days later, and become forgotten soon afterwards as well. If you take a look at several articles of disasters in similar and lesser scales, there is considerable activity once these disasters occur, but eventually cease regular contributions once no further information pops up. SamaranEmerald (talk) 01:26, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep, this is the most deadly vehicle accident of any kind in the US for the past 9 years, receiving national and international news coverage (currently the most read BBC News article). Articles about vehicle accidents with this many deaths are common on Wikipedia --LtNOWIS (talk)
 * Keep per LaserLegs and Flipandflopped. Lepricavark (talk) 01:55, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep, also per LaserLegs and Flipandflopped. The fact that this is the deadliest vehicle accident in the United States in nine years is also significant; it's unusual for a road accident to hold such a distinction. -- Ser Amantio di Nicolao Che dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 02:28, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. Two-digit death tolls from road accidents in the U.S. are notable because they're so rare. This has dominated the national news all day—no small feat given yesterday's events. Fewer (not less) people died in the Table Rock Lake duck boat accident barely two months ago; no one even nominated that for deletion. What makes this one different because it didn't happen in water? Nothing. Daniel Case (talk) 03:35, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Addendum: By death toll alone this would merit inclusion on List of disasters in the United States by death toll as the cutoff for inclusion there is 15. There are 26 entries with fewer deaths than this. Two of them—World Wide Tours bus crash and Sherman, Texas bus accident—were also MVAs. They both happened more than 5 years ago; no one has suggested either article be deleted. I would also add, as my wife and I realized just now, discussing this as she came back from work, that this accident, unlike most other entries on "deadly U.S. road accidents" is unusual for involving neither a bus nor a grade crossing; I think it may wind up being the deadliest stretch-limo accident ever (but I'll wait for a reliable source to say that). Daniel Case (talk) 03:59, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep - By sources as far away as the South China Morning Post and the Times of Israel, this is reported as the "worst US transport accident in a decade." The nom's "comment" above indicates this is more of a troll AfD rather than a serious concern of the improvement of this project. --Oakshade (talk) 03:44, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep - there should be a SNOW/Speedy criteria for news stories like this. (I wouldn't recommend a speedy keep for "no reason for deletion", but How is this notable? isn't really a rationale)  It seems very likely there will be continuing coverage of this over the next week; there's nothing reasonable to do at this point other than to keep the article. power~enwiki ( π,  ν ) 03:53, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment Question to anyone in favour of keep - why is the fact this accident happened in the U.S. make it uniquely notable? India regularly has crashes which kill dozens and dozens of people. Keeping this article opens the floodgates to a massive number of articles about tragic incidents with little lasting significance. AusLondonder (talk) 05:23, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * If articles about those bus accidents were created, I would not oppose them. Just because we don't have them doesn't mean we couldn't. Daniel Case (talk) 05:40, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep – Widespread international news coverage. Wjfox2005 (talk) 06:47, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. List_of_traffic_collisions_(2000–present) seems to imply it's the deadliest single-car crash worldwide in at least the last 5 years and possibly much longer (although this could of course be thanks to the success of deletionists in keeping us all in the dark), and a lot deadlier than many other items on that list (including many non-US items). It is also the deadliest single-car accident that I can ever remember hearing about in my 64 years on this planet (altho this could of course be down to my faulty memory and/or to faulty news sources). So it is unsurprizing that it has received worldwide news coverage. Incidentally, it is seemingly also the worst transport accident of any kind in the US for about the last 10 years. As for all the WP:Lasting objections, they seem to be little more than WP:Crystal-violating claims that they can know that this will have no lasting impact - seemingly the delusional claim that they can know that it will not result in any significant regulatory change. (Incidentally, the original nomination's wording seems grotesquely inadequate, but has ensured that an editor with just 30 edits has single-handedly got a seemingly basically very reasonable (tho poorly worded and poorly defended) and good-faith ITN-nomination closed, a matter that may perhaps require lasting change to Wikipedia procedures ).Tlhslobus (talk) 07:34, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep One of the top stories on the BBC News this morning, with the reporter saying it was the worst road crash anywhere in the US for a decade or so, IIRC.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 10:00, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. Worst transportation accident in U.S. for a long time;  issues/implications for regulation of after-market converted limousines (e.g. per this NJ.COM coverage; obvious Keep.  It is predictable that Wikipedians will automatically trash any article on event in the news with silly negative tags, as if to make ourselves look stupid in front of readers who arrive for the news.  What is most important is to convey to the broad public is our divisiveness and silly bureaucracy, right? --Doncram (talk) 10:53, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep The accident has both a significant death toll of 20 victims and is the second most serious traffic accident in New York State. It also received major international media coverage, eg. report from Global Times, a major Chinese state-runned newspaper. I therefore believe that the accident is notable enough for a Wikipedia article.廣九直通車 (talk) 11:18, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep - Unusual and newsworthy. Seems a bit too soon to delete this.--WaltCip (talk) 11:29, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep - It's too soon to be having this discussion because we can't know now how notable this event will ultimately be. It can always be deleted later. PrimaPrime (talk) 15:14, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep Is this some kind of sick POINTY joke? I once put up an AFD for a cat who was notable because it's owner made a joke about it being the mayor of the local town. It was roundly rejected. Get some perspective, people. ghost 15:19, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep – Worst accident in ten years, by death toll.  Notable.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:27, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Also, I know that this is speculative ... but I am quite sure that this incident will galvanize legislation and a call for change in safety standards of stretch limos. Something that has been brewing for many years.   Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:30, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Question can we get closure on this? It looks like keep has emerged and it would be nice to feature this on the main page like the nearly identical 2018 Hong Kong bus accident. --LaserLegs (talk) 15:59, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep - I was actually leaning delete early on but the amount of coverage this event has received plus the existence of similar articles on related incidents, some of which actually had lower desto tolls, had convinced me to change by !vote. Inter&#38;anthro (talk) 17:43, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep the death toll here is much larger than normal, and its notability based on international press coverage and political attention is on par with that of a bus accident. --Sjakkalle (Check!)  18:21, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep Notable death toll for its category, since it is the largest from ground based transport in the US in almost 10 years. Also, there are somewhat unusual circumstances in that it was a limousine made by modifying a standard vehicle frame, and it has the potential to influence new regulations for these types of vehicles. --Bobc1113 19:46, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep, per arguments by Tavix, Flipandflopped, and others. The crash is likely to affect the regulation of stretch limousines, and should affect the particular stretch of "T"-road that has been very crash-prone in the past. - Mardus /talk 19:56, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Snowball Keep I think this AFD has run its course and will not be deleted. Support closing the AFD. Acebulf (talk) 21:39, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep: While "long-term effects" is a crystal ball argument, saying a tremendous loss of a life is no grounds for an article is incorrect, as well. I would surmise that twenty deaths from a single automobile accident constitutes something notable and unheard of in itself. D ARTH B OTTO talk • cont 22:14, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. Evking22 (talk) 22:53, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.