Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2018 Trader Joe's Hostage Incident


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. As suggested by a majority of editors in apparent consensus, questions about deleting this article can be re-visited once the newsy nature of this event passes, and it becomes clearer whether the event still holds water for notability. There is no prejudice against a "not-so-early" renomination, once the contemporary nature of the event gets over. (non-admin closure) Lourdes  05:30, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

2018 Trader Joe's Hostage Incident

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WP:NOTNEWS. I fail to see the notability of this event or any long-lasting effects it could have, especially in the United States, where crimes like this are common. Spengouli (talk) 04:35, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2018 July 22.  —cyberbot I   Talk to my owner :Online 04:57, 22 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions.  Kpgj  hpjm  05:11, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California -related deletion discussions.  Kpgj  hpjm  05:13, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States -related deletion discussions.  Kpgj  hpjm  05:13, 22 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep: Hostage situations are NOT common! A police chase, several hours of standoff and people being held hostage is FOR SURE a notable event. --Kingdamian1 (talk) 04:59, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * may you please strike your duplicate !vote above? Thanks.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 17:53, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Done! --Kingdamian1 (talk) 17:57, 22 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:NOTNEWS. SportingFlyer  talk  06:20, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NOTNEWS. Otherwise, you could argue that anything could have its own article here by citing two or three sources. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 08:10, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep: Story is developing, give it time. More sources are needed but keep it for now. Inexpiable (talk) 08:55, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:RAPID. Today is the 22nd. This occurred on the 21st. At present we have wide international coverage for this event - which involved two crime scenes - an initial domestic event, followed by a rampage that led to a 30-person hostage situation with injuries and a fatality. Coverage is well and beyond SIGCOV, with the only question being LASTING/SUSTAINED - which can not be ascertained at this point in time.Icewhiz (talk) 09:02, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:RAPID. While the question of whether coverage will be sustained cannot be ascertained at this point, this attempted murder (perp's grandmother still in critical condition at hospital with 7 gunshot wounds,) escalated into a hostage crisis with 40 people held at gunpoint in a grocery store, one of the hostages was killed and gunman is in custody, coverage at this point is a headline story in the news nationally and internationally.  so, WP:RAPID.E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:54, 22 July 2018 (UTC) withdraw for now.  Will revisit if coverage continues.E.M.Gregory (talk) 09:40, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete RAPID (or at least the only half editors seem to be reading) cannot be thrown out there for every news event; “let us just wait” does not cut it. The coverage is routine; we cannot neglect NOTNEWS simply because some editors mistake this place as WikiNews and cannot wait for LASTING significance. The guidelines for events clearly says: A violent crime, accidental death, or other media events may be interesting enough to reporters and news editors to justify coverage, but this will not always translate into sufficient notability for a Wikipedia article. Those arguing that the initial burst of coverage is enough need to read WP:N: the lead states an article must both meet WP:GNG and not be excluded by WP:NOT (in this case WP:NOTNEWS).TheGracefulSlick (talk) 18:06, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Story is still developing and article needs expansion, but sources already exist as national media cover this crime, presumably because of it's unusual nature, i.e., it appears to have started as a family murder, followed by a police car chase, and, then by armed perp bursting in to a busy supermarket where he shot and killed a grocery clerk - this is not a Run-of-the-WP:MILL crime. And, as always, we gauge notability by DEPTH, GEOSCOPE of coverage.  Which this WP:NCRIME already has.  The argument made by me and other editors above that while SUSTAINNED cannot be assessed at this point, this meets NCRIME on other counts.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:40, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Murders and hostage situations are not routine in general. And yes - many are not notable. The case for calling RAPID is those cases in which we have both a very recent event and very wide coverage - both of which apply here - we have wide US national coverage as well as international and non-English coverage. Had coverage been local in nature (or passing mentions on a national level) - then RAPID would not have applied.Icewhiz (talk) 18:59, 22 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep per WP:RAPID. This was on local, national, and possibly international news. While I do agree that the article currently has been made incorrectly, the topic of the article deserves to be on Wikipedia. --154.138.188.245 (talk) 18:11, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * — 154.138.188.245 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Delete per WP:NOTNEWS, no indication this is going to meet WP:LASTING. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:42, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Right now, this is making international headlines. 40 people held hostage in a renowned grocery store. Not everyday that happens! Kingdamian1 (talk) 19:19, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * While LASTING cannot be assessed at this point, htis is getting WP:SIGCOV in the form of reported stories in major national mdeia on the other side of the continent Washington Post: He had escaped the Trader Joe’s shooting. Then stayed to help others survive.; New York Times ("A version of this article appears in print on July 22, 2018, on Page A4 of the New York edition with the headline: Shopper Killed in Standoff in Los Angeles.",) Trader Joe’s Standoff in Los Angeles Ends With 1 Dead and Hostages Freed.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:54, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 08:12, 23 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Hrm. This one's difficult, but I think the balance falls towards delete per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:LASTING. Of course, we won't know for sure until everyone forgets about it as the news cycle churns on its merry way, but it's likely that'll have happened by the time this AfD ends anyways. I disagree with the notion that WP:ROUTINE means that an unusual event confers any sort of notability; it's all about the sourcing (i.e. routine coverage), and it doesn't seem to be any different from any other just-happened-shocking-event so far. ansh 666 08:47, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Note, however, that it is unclear whether the store manage was killed by a bullet fired by police or by perp. Discussion has already begun about the difficulty police face when an active shooter - a guy who was being chased because he had already shot someone - runs toward a building filled with people.  While I do see why this article was started at the point when a gun man was holding ~40 people inside a grocery store, it is often best to wait a day or two before starting such articles.  And it certainly would have been better to wait a few days for the dust to settle before starting this discussion. As it stands, editors might want to revisit this after the results of the ballistics investigation show whether the store manager was shot by a police bullet (which might lead to a significant conversation); and whether aspects of perp's childhood or background spark significant commentary.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:01, 23 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Note: I've renamed the article per WP:NCCPT. Hope this resolves any potential confusion. Callmemirela  &#127809; talk
 * please try not to rename articles that are at AfD, even if it's the most obvious WP:WNC change. Moving articles means the header templates at the discussion page point to the wrong place. In this case, especially, there's really nothing to be lost by waiting to fix the capitalization issue; it's not causing any confusion at all. ansh 666 21:35, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
 * My apologies. I wasn't aware. Do I revert my renaming? Callmemirela  &#127809; talk 22:50, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
 * No, it's fine. ansh 666 00:36, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete: WP:NOTNEWS applies; no apparent lasting significance or societal impact. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:31, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Update LAPD now saying that the Trader Joe's store manager was killed by a bullet fired by a police officer. Story just breaking now.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:13, 24 July 2018 (UTC)  Washington Post now up with a story by its own reporter Woman killed during Trader Joe’s standoff was shot by police, not the gunman, chief says raises issue about gun battle in parking lot of crowded grocery store.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:19, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think it would change my !vote. It's a tragic development but seems unlikely to have a lasting impact, such as policy changes. The suspect was armed and was shooting at the police; they had little choice. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:30, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with K.e.coffman - just because there was a follow-up article doesn't mean it's going to have a lasting impact. SportingFlyer  talk  03:56, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * We're still getting wide national/international level coverage on the 26th - 5 days after the event. This is exactly what WP:RAPID is for. Will it have be LASTING impact? At this point - that's in crystal ball turf - if coverage stops in a couple of days, and doesn't pick up later - then an AfD 6 months from now would choose to delete. However - if we get more bursts of coverage - it would be a keep. Right now - it is impossible to assess this other than saying it can not be assessed (beyond editorial opinion, not based on coverage, of whether this will receive coverage in the future - and considering we have known unknowns and unknown unknowns (:-)) - we can't really do this, beyond such opinions counting for the very little (sometimes cases get continuing coverage for rather bizarre reasons - e.g. victim family human interest generating it).Icewhiz (talk) 06:20, 26 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep'  Revisiting this AfD because the Los Angeles Times - and others are demanding "the department owes the public — after adequate time for full investigation — an accounting of what mistakes were made and what lessons learned, if any." because "It’s important as well to remember that the outpouring of grief for Corado is echoed with depressing frequency across the city by other families who lose loved ones to police bullets. Some victims are as innocent as she, others less so. But in all cases, the LAPD should work to be as candid as in the Trader Joe’s incident — and as focused on minimizing future losses of life."  The second news cycle includes an ex cathecra editorial in the Los Angeles Times: A welcome bit of transparency from LAPD after the tragic Trader Joe's shooting this new round of coverage focuses on the fact that LAPD Michel Moore took the job only a month ago.  A reported article in the Washington Post: Woman killed during Trader Joe’s standoff was shot by police, not the gunman, chief says. Here's this morning's CNN commentary: Trader Joe's suspect should be held accountable for accidental police shooting of bystander .   It is far too WP:RAPID to delete this story.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:52, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep as per WP:RAPID and as per above. Octoberwoodland (talk) 20:17, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:RAPID. Plus, shooting of an innocent bystander by a trained professional in law enforcement.  Most def a keeper. XavierItzm (talk) 08:13, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep Just needs tightening up of the grammar, need addition information as it becomes available, and additional references. The article is off to a good start so far.   Mr. C.C. Hey yo!I didn't do it! 22:01, 28 July 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.