Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2018 deaths in American television


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Randykitty (talk) 13:17, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

2018 deaths in American television

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Unnecessary content fork from Deaths in 2018. We have literally no precedent for spinning off separate lists of deaths grouped by particular domain of notability: not only does a standalone list of "deaths in American television" not exist for any year prior to 2018, none exists for deaths in any-other-country television either. Nor for deaths in any-country literature, or any-country music, or any-country politics, and on and so forth. It's also significantly padded out with lots of fluff and cruft, as it adds literally anybody who can claim any sort of connection to US television at all no matter how tangential: foreign actors who have a few US bit parts in their résumés, foreign actors who are known in the US only because a cable channel imported a foreign show, wrestlers, cameramen, singers who competed on reality shows, Nevada's dead Republican state legislator pimp, and even Aretha Franklin. There just isn't a strong basis for breaking with past practice here: we've never done "Year deaths in American television" before, and a considerable number of the people listed here are irrelevant to the question of whether now is the time to start doing something new. Bearcat (talk) 23:54, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 00:07, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 00:09, 5 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep I understand that there isn't a precedent for this, but it has to start somewhere. At almost 90,000 bytes, this article would make any article that this would be merged into a very large article indeed. This was a split from the page 2018 in American television which currently is at 619,000 bytes so it would be rather untenable to merge it into that article, at least in its current form. For what it's worth, I already removed many entries from the list and so naturally I was conservative in doing so. I think non-Americans who predominately appeared on American television or are notable for appearing on American television are strong candidates for the list. All the entries are notable, having their own Wikipedia articles. Onetwothreeip (talk) 00:17, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Every other year's "Year in American television" page has an embedded list of deaths, which is often every bit as long as this one is — but it's somehow not overwhelming those lists, and 2018 hasn't been such an unprecedentedly death-laden year. And I didn't say anything about non-Americans who predominantly appeared on American television — what I was talking about was non-Americans whose appearances on American television were footnotes to careers that were predominantly in their home countries: for example, there's one guy who never had a single American television role in his life, but is included in this list because an American cable channel imported a foreign show he was in. Which is like saying that a British musician should have her album listed in 2018 in American music if the record label released it in the United States (which no, she shouldn't, because she isn't an American person.) Bearcat (talk) 00:33, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with removing those kinds of entries from a list like those entries. Regarding other years, it's definitely true that the list of deaths for 2018 is overwhelming the 2018 American television article more than the articles of other years. If the same circumstances apply to other years then certainly I would split them into their own articles as well. It just hasn't been as urgent for other years because they haven't been as detailed as 2018 in American television. The name of the article could be changed though. Onetwothreeip (talk) 00:40, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Merge back into 2018 in American television to match every other #### in American television article. This was originally split from it to decrease that article's size but since the trimming is still ongoing and the article is much smaller now, it's no longer necessary to have its own article. TomCat4680 (talk) 04:43, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * If you're referring to the main television article, it's still very big. WP:ARTICLESIZE holds that anything over 100,000 bytes is very long. The deaths article is also not a small article. At the very least we should wait until both are trimmed down, especially the main one. I don't think we will get the main television article to below 100,000 though, unless there are more splits. Regarding that there aren't such lists for other years, I intend on making them as it arises. Onetwothreeip (talk) 05:14, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * This article (section) used to be twice as long until we deleted entries of people with no article and a few other non-TV related people. The other article is almost 200K smaller than it used to be too. TomCat4680 (talk) 05:21, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I only think I can get the main article down to 500K which is still five times as large as the rule of thumb for articles to be split, and this article being 90K is itself almost at the point where splitting would be called for (although I don't see it possible). I think we can consider merging if we get to the point where the articles are small enough that it would make sense, after all this was the second largest article on Wikipedia. Onetwothreeip (talk) 05:34, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * BTW for anyone unfamiliar with the original article, there's an ongoing discussion about trimming it at Talk:2018 in American television. Suggestions for further trimming are welcome there. TomCat4680 (talk) 05:42, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The 100 kB rule of thumb you cite specifically relates to readable prose. Lists like this aren't meant to be read from beginning to end as would a normal article. And even if they were, this list doesn't have anywhere near that much text; much of its total size comprises references and other wikicode. mgiganteus1 (talk) 18:25, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The rule of thumb is that articles over 50K may have to be divided, not only after 100K. There can of course be exceptions but without any split this article would be among the few largest articles and aren't classified as good articles. It's perfectly reasonable under WP:SPLITLIST and WP:SPINOFF. Onetwothreeip (talk) 20:00, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep 2018 in American television is a sprawling monstrosity and adding more stuff would make it even longer. Stuartyeates (talk) 23:45, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * It's down to 567,468 kb now and this article is only 	80,857 kb so I don't see how merging them would be a problem. TomCat4680 (talk) 22:20, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * 567,000 is a very large article and requires further splitting. Merging other articles into it would be the opposite. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:37, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Well 2018 in American television isn't the longest of its kind any more. 2017 in American television is 639,597 kb and its deaths section is still intact. TomCat4680 (talk) 22:57, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * That article should be split too, just like the 2018 article. Onetwothreeip (talk) 23:10, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Merge Back for consistency with other articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:241:300:C930:2C2C:3E90:D92A:82 (talk) 05:32, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually there is one for 2017 which already exists and we will be doing them for more years and will continue to do so as the need arises, so this is not one-off. Onetwothreeip (talk) 07:26, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Return content to 2018 in American television The split was done without any minimum discussion on a proper talk page; both splits on that (including 2018 in American television network changes) should be returned into the main article and a proper discussion on the talk page (along with WT:WPTV for further consensus) be done before any split is decided.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 08:17, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Splits don't require a discussion. I acted WP:BOLDLY and with affirmation from other editors to reduce the size of the article as prescribed by WP:ARTICLESIZE. I've done many splits before, and there ought to be a reason for undoing a split. If not for these splits, the article would be the largest English Wikipedia article. Onetwothreeip (talk) 08:26, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * A split that large requires some kind of minimum discussion. BOLD is for obvious things that are commonly agreed should be done without getting multiple processes involved, which this certainly was not. WP:HASTE makes this clear; discussion should always be done before something like this is considered.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 08:44, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I've done much bigger splits and content removals without any controversy or discussion. This one was just as obvious and there wasn't opposition. This isn't a major change, the content is still there, it's just on another page. Onetwothreeip (talk) 09:46, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * "BOLD is for obvious things" It is not in any way restricted to such edits. please stop misrepresenting it. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:26, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Return content to 2018 in American television. While anyone can edit such articles, anything television-related should be under the umbrella of WikiProject Television, and any major overhauls should be discussed there first. —  Wylie pedia  @ 02:25, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * "any major overhauls should be discussed there first" Not so, per WP:OWN and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:28, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment Nobody here seems to be expressing any reason why the content should be part of 2018 in American television. As a very very large article, it was appropriate to split it per WP:SPLITLIST as this is a natural way to split it since it was already split in the article itself. People can read Talk:2018 in American television if they want to see that these splits were indeed discussed. Onetwothreeip (talk) 04:25, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Neutral on keep or delete, but do not restore to the parent article as that is still far too long. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:26, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep – A valid WP:SPINOUT article that conforms with WP:SIZERULE relative to the size of the 2018 in American television article, which is presently at 634 kb (!). North America1000 15:37, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   18:25, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep - Per WP:SIZERULE. Also might need changing to 2018 deaths in television to avoid Anglophone bias. FoxyGrampa75 (talk) 22:18, 11 December 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.