Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2021 Tampa Bay Buccaneers–New England Patriots game


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Somewhere between keep and a no consensus, to be fully open. There is merit behind the keep and merge opinions, cited in policy. Which of those comes out ahead is slightly unclear, but that can be handled editorially. I imagine a possible merger and if so, how much, may change as we get further from this game, but there definitely is not a consensus to delete the content. Star  Mississippi  19:56, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

2021 Tampa Bay Buccaneers–New England Patriots game

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Fails WP:SPORTSEVENT as it's not the final series (or single game when there is not a series) determining the champion of a top league, it isn't a college bowl game, it's not an all-star game, and it is not a game that is widely considered by independent reliable sources to be notable. Most coverage is routine and mentions of it being Tom Brady's return to New England before the game. A month and a half later, it doesn't seem to satisfy WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE. Rockchalk 717 22:46, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. Rockchalk 717 22:46, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Rockchalk 717 22:46, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete I agree that this is just a one-off game that does not meet SPORTSEVENT. It can be sufficiently covered at 2021 New England Patriots season, 2021 Tampa Bay Buccaneers season, Tom Brady, and any other relevant articles. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:52, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep: I find this deletion rationale weak since it hinges on WP:ROUTINE. The widespread coverage beforehand is just as valid, and we all know notability is not temporary. As to continued coverage, notable games like this often don't receive continued coverage until the end of the season (see the AfD for Hail Murray). You would be challenged to find any game where that's the case from week to week because of the nature of sports reporting. Simply put, this game was impactful. It was a highly-anticipated return for Brady, promoted specifically by its broadcast company (not every game gets this), Brady became the all-time passing yardage leader and joined the 32 Team Club during the game, not to mention it was the second-most viewed SNF game ever. The article's sourcing is quite good and includes multiple national sources (a key indicator of notability, even ROUTINE says this). So, to say it should be deleted based on weak rationale like ROUTINE and CONTINUEDCOVERAGE just doesn't make sense to me. Etzedek24 (I'll talk at ya) (Check my track record) 00:03, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete, spike the ball and do a choreographed dance per nom lest we be infested with routine NFL games every damn season. The Patriots aren't that special (though they are coming on now). "The Return" gained absolutely no traction as a catchphrase (fumble instead). It's already in the rearview mirror. As for it being the second-most viewed SNF game ever, do the first and third have articles? Also, Brady sets new records every other game. This isn't Bradypedia. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:36, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep clear pass of WP:SPORTSEVENT significant non-routine coverage leading up to the game and in its aftermath, particularly with Tom Brady setting the career passing yards record and his postgame interaction with his former head coach Bill Belichick. Easily among the most notable regular season games over the last several years.  Frank   Anchor  01:23, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment I think you might want to look at WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE. The majority of articles about it were from the week leading up to the game, and a few immediately after the game, but there hasn't been very much continued coverage about it since indicating (using that policy's words) a "spike in coverage". If Wikipedia existed when Joe Montana returned to San Francisco when he played for the Chiefs, that probably wouldn't qualify for an article either. This seems pretty similar to when Brett Favre returned to Green Bay or when Peyton Manning returned to Indianapolis, lots of build up the week or two leading up then the game was largely forgotten by history. And I have to pretty strongly disagree about it being "among the most notable regular season games over the last several years". Outside of Tom Brady, there wasn't very much notable about it. In regards to the record comment, records are broken and tied more often than most people realize. Hell, Patrick Mahomes tied (another) record Sunday night and there wasn't much coverage about it, now I'll admit career passing yards is more notable then things like "fastest to (milestone)" "most (stat) after ___ career games". The 2018 Rams/Chiefs game is by a large margin the most notable regular season game recently and look at everything about that game.-- Rockchalk 717 02:05, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE states "coverage does not need to be ongoing for notability to be established." There was also clearly more than a short "burst" of a few days of coverage, as evidenced by this game headlining the schedule release in May, and the highly publicized Adele promo released more than a full week before the game took place.  Frank   Anchor  13:24, 17 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep as per and 's comments (maybe not for the records being broken), but mostly for the game's strong ties to the Brady–Belichick era of New England Patriots history, which is considered one of the greatest, if not the greatest, dynasties in sports. I'd also suggest merging to the Brady/Belichick page, but as mentioned before, there is plenty of coverage for the game and its circumstances, which I think would be too much for a merged article to contain, especially for one game. --WuTang94 (talk) 02:10, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep I do think that Brady's return is significant given the magnitude of playing against his former coach and team, as they carved a huge place in sport's history when together. I also think that such a matchup likely will not happen again, unlike Favre or Manning as mentioned by . But in the likelihood of this page getting deleted, I have moved some of the significant copy surrounding the game (and not the game itself) to the Brady–Belichick era page. --Flowerkiller1692 (talk) 05:31, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * On second thought, maybe the merge target should be 2021 New England Patriots season instead. Either one of the teams' seasons is probably more capable of taking on this page's content than the Brady/Belichick page, and the game meant more to the Pats than the Bucs. I still think this page merits keeping though. --WuTang94 (talk) 16:29, 17 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep Based on 's argument. His statement that WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE dictates that coverage does not need to be ongoing, is enough here, considering this game got significant coverage that isn't routine even for the biggest regular season games, especially beforehand. I don't typically think particular games should get their own article, especially regular season, but I think this one meets proper criteria. Spf121188 (talk) 14:40, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep based on the amount of coverage this particular game received. -- Mike 🗩 17:55, 17 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete While this marked Brady beating all 32 teams, he is not the first QB to do so, and the game was not memorable for anything else in particular. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:647:300:146B:6165:92A0:DA22:CB36 (talk) 04:53, 19 November 2021 (UTC)  — 2601:647:300:146B:6165:92A0:DA22:CB36 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * I would re-read the article and many of the above comments. There are clearly other things this game was notable for. That is all.--WuTang94 (talk) 14:49, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * People still talk about The Catch or the Miracle in Motown. Does anybody, less than two month later, fondly reminisce about "the Return"? There's no WP:LASTING coverage. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:32, 21 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep I really thought initially to vote delete, but reading the article, it's very well written (likely GA-level or better) and sources clearly covered this event in enough detail to pass WP:GNG. -- Jayron 32 16:24, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Redirect and selective Merge to Brady-Belichick era. There's certainly coverage about the game, routine or not. However, keeping it as a stand alone article in my opinion fails WP:10YEARTEST as almost all the coverage centers around the drama of Brady and Belichick rather than the game itself. Unlike other recent notable games like the Hail Murray and the 2018 Kansas City Chiefs–Los Angeles Rams game, the coverage about the game had little to do with what happened on the field, and everything to do with the Brady-Belichick relationship. That's why I think readers would be better served having this game covered in the article about the Brady-Belichick era, giving it WP:DUEWEIGHT in the context of that article. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 14:04, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom and Muboshgu. Cbl62 (talk) 14:30, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Selective merge per Qwaiiplayer . The coverage of the game centers around the "return" of Brady and the Brady-Belichick relationship. Natg 19 (talk) 17:40, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually on 2nd thought, most relevant information is already at the merge target, so delete and redirect. Natg 19 (talk) 17:46, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Posted notice at WikiProject National Football League. Natg 19 (talk) 17:59, 24 November 2021 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: What do folks think about redirect? (And even merging anything of use) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 19:15, 24 November 2021 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 01:34, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. I was a bit unsure about this one before I read through the arguments presented in favor of each option, but I'm now satisfied that this article passes WP:SPORTSEVENT and WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE, because of the game receiving a much greater amount of coverage than most NFL games from the moment that the schedule was announced, in addition to the records that were broken by Brady as a result of it. --Zander251 (talk) 19:00, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep Received coverage well beyond that of a normal football game. Satisfies WP:SPORTSEVENT. Mlb96 (talk) 00:19, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete, all relevant information (Brady-Belichek) is already on their respective articles. No reason to have a bunch of other cruft filling out the rest of this article. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 15:06, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment in response to the relisting comment on redirect/merge, this is not an appropriate outcome as there is clearly enough WP:SIGCOV to pass WP:GNG per my above “keep” vote and others, and “2021 Tampa Bay Buccaneers - New England Patriots Game” is an unlikely search term.  Frank  Anchor  16:48, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep Notable game for various reasons, well-cited, and well written. GNG passed and the article is a potential GA or even FA candidate. DrewieStewie (talk) 20:24, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete and merge to Brady–Belichick era. The notability of the topic itself is not the game that was played, as implied by the title of this article, but the legacy of these two men. This topic is already covered in-depth in Brady–Belichick era. This is just another footnote in a long history. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 20:26, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep, per discussion, especially Frank Anchor's comments. And, of course, Brady. Randy Kryn (talk) 05:38, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom, merge/redirect to Brady–Belichick era per Gonzo_fan2007, Dissident93, Natg 19, and Qwaiiplayer. Game is only notable for its relation to the men featured in proposed target article. In 10 years, their championships together will far outWEIGH a single game played as opponents. - "Ghost  of  Dan Gurney"  12:20, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * This discussion should have been closed as Keep by without this relisting, per comments before the relist. Please have another reading of everyone's comments and reasoning, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:59, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * And no, the page is relevant beyond Belichick and really has little to do with him. It's about Brady and his return to play his former team (and, importantly, his former owner Robert Kraft, whose decisions were relevant in Brady leaving the Patriots) and what he accomplished while doing so. It's not about what Brady accomplished while quarterbacking the Patriots, but about the game, the fans, and the overall drama resulting in the "second most-watched broadcast of NBC Sunday Night Football in its history". Belichick is New Engand's coach and not a rival to Brady, and he is more or less tangential to the page. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:13, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * This is only the second relisting. Many AfDs are relisted multiple times, especially in close calls such as this. I don't need to be told to read anything for a third time, thanks. And based on your recent edits, I must ask you to stop replying to me in order to make a WP:POINT about closers reading discussions. - "Ghost of  Dan Gurney"  14:27, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Whoops, my apology, my comment was more for than you, this seems an obvious Keep from early on and could use a close reading from the closer. p.s. the last sentence of Dan's ghost was added after this comment. My answer to you above was also meant for you and for other editors who want to make an inappropriate-target merge. This is not a topic about Brady and Belichick, although they both were active participants in the game (as were many others). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:30, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It's odd to say it's obvious when the discretion is on the closing admin. There are legit points presented here with the discussion for either keeping the article or/and merging. – The Grid  ( talk )  15:17, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Just asking the closer to read through the page, and I think the discussion in this relist can add to the case for Keep. Mainly, the premise of the suggested redirect doesn't apply to this article other than for a brief mention and a link to the page. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:00, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * That is for the closing admin to decide. Nothing more. Nothing less. – The Grid  ( talk )  20:33, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Which is why I'm asking the closer to actually read the page and understand its discussion. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:04, 3 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment just want to reiterate the whole naming discussion and notability. The game that was played was not notable, i.e. the actions that occurred during the game did not make it notable, like Fail Mary, Bottlegate and 2018 NFC Championship Game. Being the 2nd most viewed SNF game or Brady setting some random record does not make the game notable. Looking at the article's current name, 2021 Tampa Bay Buccaneers–New England Patriots game, the implication is the topic of the article is the game, i.e. the events that occurred during the game. However, looking closely at the sources, the topic that is notable is Brady and Belichick's history, legacies, and now rivalry. Looking at it from this perspective, Brady–Belichick era already covers this topic. This game becomes part of this topic, with the most appropriate outcome being a new section in Brady–Belichick era covering Brady and Belichick's interactions after Brady left the Patriots, which includes this game. So again, this game is notable and should be included in Wikipedia, but the topic is already covered by an existing article. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 16:46, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, this article was previously titled "Tom Brady's return" before being moved to its current title. On one hand, I feel that that title was actually a better title to indicate why this game is notable, but on the other hand, as pointed out by those who supported the move, it's a bit of an ambigious title that could be confused with other "returns" that Brady has made throughout his career, such as his 2009 return from his torn ACL or his 2016 return from his Deflategate suspension. So if this article is kept (as I have already voted for it to be), maybe there should be a new discussion about a title that better demonstrates the game's notability than just having the title be the year and the teams involved in the game, but it might have to be something a little more specific than "Tom Brady's return." --Zander251 (talk) 17:43, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * (coming in riding the surf of an edit conflict) Yes, the game is notable, per 32 good sources which cover Tom Brady in relationship to this game. Brady's focus was not on any kind of rivalry with Belicheck, even if some but not all of the press played it up. A merge to the Brady-Belicheck page would be inaccurate. A mention and a link there is fine, but this article is about a noteworthy game. And the "random record" Brady achieved during the game was for the most passing yards in a career (as notable a football record as you can get, tied). Randy Kryn (talk) 17:50, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I disagree that the 32 references show notability for the game itself, compared to the circumstances around the game. When I look at the title of these refs, 9 of them are about Tom Brady's time with the Buccaneers or the aftermath of his leaving (e.g. "Tom Brady officially signs contract with Buccaneers", "Patriots eliminated from postseason contention for first time since 2008"). Many other refs are about the circumstances of the "return" or about the ratings (e.g.  "Watch chilling moment as Patriots crowd roars for Tom Brady's return",  "Tom Brady's return was the second most-watched 'Sunday Night Football' game ever on NBC"). An argument could be made that the game itself was notable for Brady becoming the NFL all-time passing leader, but we don't have an article on the game where Brees broke the previous record. There is no doubt that this article is well sourced, but this game was notable because of "The Return", which can be summarized and covered at the Brady-Belichick article. Natg 19 (talk) 20:29, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The "circumstances around the game" are part of the article about the game (the page doesn't have to be about the 60 minutes on-field play). The game is not about Brady and Belichick, not discernible rivals, and a merge to that page would be a mismerge per topic. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:10, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 's theory that the page is misnamed seems to get to the heart of the differing opinions here. The page is a prominent Tom Brady page and not a page about Brady and Belicheck, and should be renamed accordingly. Makes sense. This is a well sourced page about a notable game which, by coincidence, contains Brady obtaining a notable record, which should tip a Keep. Just could be the title has to describe it better. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:10, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, the naming doesn't matter. The topic is what matters. The topic is notable, it's just that the topic is already sufficiently covered by another article. The argument I am making is that the topic that is notable is the relationship between Brady and Belichick, not the game that was actually played. The game should definitely be noted, but as part of the larger topic on the Brady–Belichick era. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 16:45, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The Brady-Belichick era ended in 2019 and is defined in the first sentence of the Brady-Belichick era. This game was played in 2021, and has nothing whatsoever to do with their mutually shared success (which is what their article is about but. again, not what this one covers). Randy Kryn (talk) 17:04, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It's a footnote (or a postscript) to the Brady-Belichick era. If it weren't for the extraordinary success of the B-B era, nobody would care about this game. The notability of this game flows directly and exclusively from the former. Cbl62 (talk) 17:24, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, it should have a note, or maybe a 'See also' entrant, but that page is about something that ended, per the page lead sentence, in 2019. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:27, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't understand how you can say that this game has nothing whatsoever to do with their mutually shared success. If not for the mutual connection between Brady and Belichick, this would just be a run of the mill regular season game, and this article would be speedily deleted and we would not be having this discussion. Natg 19 (talk) 17:58, 3 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep: I hate Tom Brady like any self-respecting fan, but there were just too many story lines, records, and viewership numbers with this specific game. It could easily overburden any single article about Brady or the franchises, and since Wikipedia is not constrained like a paper encyclopedia, the sources give it the notability needed to give the subject its own little corner of the internet. Ignoring notability (which is proven), it transcends a stub and people looking to rescue articles should pay more attention to the effort given here.Outdatedpizza (talk) 11:06, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep as article passes WP:GNG and this article is notable enough to rise above WP:NSPORT concerns. Swordman97  talk to me  02:32, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
 * For the nom's argument: theres an article here that shows that the match is still in people's heads.  Swordman97  talk to me  03:40, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete this is a game that was not really big like the Butt Fumble, the Tuck Rule Game, or the Beast Quake so I would recommend to delete this page. SoonerFan4life67 talk 0:20, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Just because you claim that this event isn’t as “big” as other games, that doesn’t make it so. As is the case of the other games you mentioned, there is significant non-routine coverage of this contest to warrant an article.  Frank  Anchor  01:57, 9 December 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.