Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/425 Greatest Books of All Time


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was  d elete. - Mailer Diablo 17:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

425 Greatest Books of All Time

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

I don't believe that this list is notable enough for Wikipedia. I just can't see any establishment of notability. Blood Red Sandman Open Up Your Heart  -  Receive My EviLove  11:32, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Why do you feel it isn't notable? Pepso 14:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If one types "reading lists" into Google, over one million results are indicated (and 3.5 million for "reading list"). If one types "reading lists" into Wikipedia, the results show one page on speed reading and another on reading disabilities. This would thus seem to be an area of immense oversight on Wikipedia in comparison with global interest in the subject. Pepso 14:40, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The high number of results just proves my point: they are not notable merely for existing. Yes, I'm reasonbly confident there are some notable ones out there - in fact I'm sure of it - but so far as I can see this is not one of them. Blood Red Sandman Open Up Your Heart  -  Receive My EviLove  15:54, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Is it inappropriate to have a reading list on Wikipedia? Pepso 17:23, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Some people might have a problem with it, but I generally support the idea - just not this one. Blood Red Sandman Open Up Your Heart  -  Receive My EviLove  17:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Rename: The current name sounds like POV, and is misleading; a better name, since the info. is being drawn from a single source, might be, "Usenet list of the top 425 books of all time."  ◄ Zahakiel ►  19:43, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * delete this does not meet WP:WEB and so WP:N. Madmedea 20:06, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Surely the question is whether the subject of the article is notable. The article is about a list created on usenet. I'm not normally a fan of Google tests, but in this case it should be fairly revealing. "Greatest Books of All Time" + usenet reveals 11 hits while "425 Greatest Books of All Time" weighs in at 5. I fully agree with the nominator in the above discussions. This list is not notable - in fact, the article as much as says so. Talk of the validity of reading lists in general is just a red herring. CiaranG 20:08, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * On Usenet, this was notable. In fact, I recall running across it often ten years ago. Yet as years passed, it vanished, except for a citation on IMDb and a website where someone kept it with other book lists. My motive in importing it to Wikipedia was to salvage and resurrect something that was a valuable Usenet document and keep it from being lost to history. Pepso 20:14, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If the list has vanished, then the article is unverifiable. That the newsgroup participants who organized the project didn't ensure that it was properly recorded should be taken as a lesson for the future: Publish your work properly.  Usenet samizdat is not enough.  Wikipedia only takes subjects that have been properly documented and published, and even then its purpose is to contain encyclopaedia articles.  Wikipedia is not a repository of source material.  It is not the place to come in order to ensure that source material is preserved. Uncle G 01:44, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I find it interesting to note the areas on Wikipedia frequented by vandals. Often these indicate the vandals are high school students, incapable of landing on pages other than those they learned about from school assignments, such as Shirley Jackson and "The Lottery." I felt the 425 Greatest presented a pathway through a vast landscape of literature that might intimidate the vandals. Pepso 11:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Once we delete 425 Greatest, we will be left with a world of YouTubers like this one:
 * whts da point? u tryin to encourage us to read or or u just tryin to shof off da no of books u hab read? and ir u had da gud intention i m afraid we cant even c da pictures clesrly although u wrote da name of da books on da side
 * It was a response to a video in which someone showed their favorite books. Pepso 12:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with that people like that are somewhat ignorant, but how is that in any way relevant to this AfD? Blood Red Sandman Open Up Your Heart  -  Receive My EviLove  19:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Delete - Notability not established. Is it worth saving? Sure. Just not on Wikipedia. Get a website and post it there. MakeRocketGoNow 15:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Once this is deleted we will be left with Ninety-nine Novels and Great Books of the Western World. But what about Clifton Fadiman's Lifetime Reading Plan which is mentioned on Wikipedia but minus list. However, all three of these were sources for 425 Greatest as were others:
 * The Lifetime Reading Plan by Clifton Fadiman. (l)
 * Great Books of the Western World, Mortimer J. Adler, Editor. (g)
 * Great Books of the Twentieth Century, as proposed by Adler. (t)
 * "Books for the College-Bound Student," in Books and the Teen-aged Reader. (c)
 * The College and Adult Reading List of the National Council of Teachers of English (NCTE). (e)
 * Books for You, the secondary-level reading list of the NCTE. (b)
 * "List for the College-Preparatory Student" in Reading in the Secondary School. (s)
 * "One Hundred Significant Books" from Good Reading (Committee on College Reading). (r) Pepso 19:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That it was based on more notable lists doesn't make it notable in itself. Blood Red Sandman Open Up Your Heart  -  Receive My EviLove  19:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * While Walter Tevis was teaching English literature at Ohio University, he became aware that the level of literacy among students was dropping at an alarming rate. This observation gave him the idea for his science fiction novel Mockingbird. It's the story of a far future when mankind is dying and everyone is illiterate. The central figure of the novel is a man who has taught himself how to read. He contacts the dean of NYU and tells him that he has figured out what "reading" is and can teach others. They're not interested in hiring him. Pepso 13:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Pepso, you are welcome to create articles for the above notable reading lists. MakeRocketGoNow 15:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I did insert a link at 425 for the list of Clifton Fadiman's Lifetime Reading Plan. since that will vanish here, I better move it now to Clifton Fadiman's page. Pepso 16:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm left wondering: is copying the entire thing a copyvio?   Blood Red Sandman  Open Up Your Heart  -  Receive My EviLove  17:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.