Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/4 famous flowers of China


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete.  MBisanz  talk 10:48, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

4 famous flowers of China

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Delete belatedly contested WP:PROD based on not being referenced and being a synthesis of original research. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:39, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I saw this when it came up for Proposed Deletion. I was on the cusp of doing a rescue &hellip; until I noticed that many of the sources that I had found were discussing three existing topics that we already have covered by their actual names: the Four Gentlemen, the flower tiles in the game of Mahjongg, and the national flowers of China.  (The latter could do with some expansion, but that's a different matter.)  As the proposed deletion nomination observed, none of the real subjects are known as "4 famous flowers".  Moreover, there's a lot of disagreeent in sources as to what the seasonal plants, used as symbols for those seasons in Chinese art (and Korean and Japanese art, come to that), are. Page 136 of ISBN 9780700704644, for example, states that the Four Gentlemen are the seasonal plants. Page 17 of ISBN 9780870113697 says the same.  The substitution of lotus for bamboo is supported by other sources, however.  ISBN 9780804838641 is a fairly comprehensive source on this matter.  But its approach to the subject divides it up on a plant-by-plant basis &mdash; much as we do with bamboo in fact &mdash; and doesn't give a name to the prunus/lotus/Chrysanthemum/orchid grouping.  Uncle G (talk) 19:38, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per my original prod reasoning. -Atmoz (talk) 00:55, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * rename "Flowers of the seasons (China)".i had found this poorly written stub and expanded it. i was unaware of the process for PROD, as i usually go to AFD to comment, and there was no comments started. i thought that it was just too soon and that some comments would begin shortly. i added references, rewrote it, and found what i believe to be the proper english phrase for this motif: Flowers of the seasons. im not sure if anyone noticed the rewrite, though i had started a discussion page for the article, but no comments on the deletion page. i think this is a valid subject for an article. the 4 flowers is one of a number of ubiquitous motifs in chinese culture, as i indicated. i provide some more links for you to examine:
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=Czx6-wYu6MoC&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=%22flowers+of+the+seasons%22+china&source=bl&ots=k1ZzKF4UIz&sig=CUMDazdKMqvQOEnSEXIylJfNtKg&hl=en&ei=TjPSSev3H5vWlQes4pSWBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA55,M1
 * http://www.npm.gov.tw/english/exh92/summer/flower9208/main.html#
 * http://www.gotheborg.com/index1.htm?http://gotheborg.info/qa/seasonscup.shtml
 * i will be happy to add these links to the article if its revived. i think i went overboard in linking to wikipedia articles on notable chinese painters. none of those articles are explicitly linking the artists to this motif, so i will gladly remove them. there is an interesting parallel set of plants, which has an article as you will see. oddly enough, there is a bamboo orchid plant, which links the 2, but thats definitely original research on my part. i wouldnt take up your time unless i thought we need to be diligent in documenting notable phenomena that were of primary importance in pre-internet times, ubiquitous, and from nonwestern cultures, esp. important ones like China. i look forward to the decision and thoughts. i think the subject should at least be incorporated into another article, perhaps as an aside as an alternate grouping on the 4 gentlemen page (which i would like to do if article is deleted). the article definitely has to be retitled if kept. this originally posted on Carlossuarez46 talk page, hope its appropriate to repost here. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 15:24, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete In case this is deleted, the article says that they were the plum blossom, orchid, the lotus, and the chrysanthemum, supposedly corresponding to winter, spring, summer and fall, respectively . However, in googling that combination  I don't see that these are considered symbols of the four seasons, other than in the one motifs website.  Like chop suey, I don't think this is a tradition. Mandsford (talk) 17:58, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Try books, not the World Wide Web. The real subject here is flower symbolism in Chinese/Korean/Japanese art, not "four famous flowers of China".  There are copious sources on that, and some of the printed ones do, as I noted above, bear out the assertion that these four flowers are associated with four seasons.  See page 41 of ISBN 1932476105, for example. The problems here are twofold: The article has a bad title and a poor scope (there being no apparent name for this particular grouping), and it is difficult to keep sources straight (partly because of the Four Gentlemen and partly because many sources are slipshod about the specific names of the flowers &mdash; plum versus Japanese apricot, for example).  But it can be renamed to flower symbolism in Chinese/Japanese/Korean art (or some better title) and refactored.  Uncle G (talk) 00:23, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * if i may add one more link: []. china came close to voting for these flowers as their collective national flower. i agree with Uncle G, even though i also acknowledge that the subject could easily be folded into an article on symbolism in east asian art.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 05:32, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete The article is badly written to begin with.--Zhong hei qing bai (talk) 08:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.