Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/50 Classic Ski Descents of North America (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Keep arguments are strong. Expertwikiguy (talk) 10:23, 5 February 2021 (UTC) (non-admin closure) Expertwikiguy (talk) 10:23, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

50 Classic Ski Descents of North America
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log )

This book was recently restored as a soft deleted article in the prior AFD. This book however does not meet the criteria for inclusion of either WP:NBOOK or WP:GNG. I cannot find any reference to it and it's only reference in the article is the book itself. McMatter (talk)/(contrib) 17:14, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. McMatter (talk)/(contrib) 17:14, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. McMatter (talk)/(contrib) 17:14, 28 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:NBOOK and WP:LIST. As a book, it's clearly not notable because it wasn't reviewed widely. As a list, it fails because most of the listings are themselves not notable. If we cut this down to the bare blue links, you'd have a little spare list. Bearian (talk) 20:48, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * User:Bearian, perhaps you meant wp:NLIST, not wp:LIST? Can you revisit here, given my comments below? --Doncram (talk) 01:11, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, typo: WP:NLIST. Still a deleter. Bearian (talk) 18:53, 1 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep, though rework to be a proper list of notable ski descents (often the first descents) in North America. My !vote at first was "Delete, tentatively, although a "merge" might potentially be possible." --Doncram (talk) 23:35, 31 January 2021 (UTC) 00:26, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * To expand, I don't understand what is the topic: is the topic the 2010 book of that name, or is the topic the "ski descents" that the book covers. Either way, it seems very odd that the book is not given as a source, that it is not quoted from at all, that it is not used as the source to support any statements about what the book contains.  The one source in the article is a brief book review, which describes the book itself as a "classic" that covers "classic" ski descents, without defining what "classic" means.  It would be surprising to me if a 2010-dated book in any field would be regarded as a "classic".  Also it not clear what is a "descent", much less a :classic descent". Is a descent a specific downhill ski route, which may have been run by many persons over the years?  Or does it refer to a specific skiing trip/expedition/downhill run taken by one person or party on one specific date?  Like perhaps the first ski run down some difficult-to-get-to place.  Is a "classic ski descent" a particularly famous expedition?  Like the 1947 voyage of the Kontiki might be regarded as a "classic sea voyage", because it is famous and was a first of its type, was "ground-breaking", etc.?  In which case it would make sense to give at least the year of each specific expedition/run, in a list-article about these events.  But the list provided is just a list of names of mountains, which isn't very helpful.  And that list of 50 mountains is not given in the one source cited in the Wikipedia article! Perhaps/probably the book actually does name those mountains, but then you need to cite the book as the source for that information!  Are these among the earliest or "greatest" ski run events, or earliest-created routes on those mountains, or the longest available ski routes in the world, perhaps?  Couldn't/shouldn't something be said about each route or expedition, like how many meters of elevation drop it has, like what makes that "descent" a "classic", etc.?  Based on fact that one of them is on Mount Denali, which I am pretty sure does not have any ski resort with ski lifts, I take it at least some of these are non-routine routes which might be skiied by persons who were helicoptered in or who spent days hiking up.  But I don't know, does it include any ski routes supported by ski chair lift operations?  Apparently it does have very nice photos of the 50 ski routes or mountains, and has stories or perhaps interviews about 14 skiiers or skiing expeditions.  This begs the question for me, is this then (just) a coffee table book collection of 50 places or expeditions for which the authors/editors have been able to obtain good photos?
 * And what is a "historical atlas", anyhow? It is from 2010.  Does it include a collection of 50 actually old (historical) maps?  I think an atlas is a collection of maps, not of photographs.  I think the phrase does not mean what you think it means.
 * Anyhow, if it is an author of the book, or someone working for them or for the publisher, who is "pushing" this article, i want to say to you: this is not okay as it is now:
 * IMO there is not sufficient evidence that the book is important enough to have an enclopedia article about it (I am not myself familiar with requirements for articles about books; that is probably what wp:NBOOKS is about), and
 * IMO this set of 50 ski descents (seemingly randomly chosen? not explained, anyhow) appears not to be an encyclopedic topic as a set.
 * To anyone promoting the book, a possible way forward would be to find an already-existing more general list of ski routes or ski expeditions in the United States or in the world, and to add information to that list, citing the book and perhaps quoting from it. Perhaps you could work in 50 statements, with 50 footnotes pointing to your book, which would effectively provide significant advertising about your book.  Or, if there is not yet any suitable list of significant ski expeditions or ski routes, perhaps that could be created by yourself and others (and this really might be possible), but trying to be more general and including more sources than just this one book.
 * Anyhow, with all these questions outstanding, and with the list not having sufficient content to appear to me to be interesting to any encyclopedia reader, my "!vote" is to delete for now at least. Or it could be moved to Draftspace for further development if the book promoters / article developers were willing to try to convert it into a significant encyclopedic list of expeditions or routes. --Doncram (talk) 23:35, 31 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment: The article creator has not been active, is probably not being reached by notice of this AFD. I am sort of interested in improving/creating Wikipedia coverage in this topic area, though.  There does exist List of ski descents of Eight-Thousanders, about (all? earliest? "classic"?) specific ski expeditions/runs down mountains over 8,000 m tall.  It seems to me that a List of ski descents in North America may well be a valid topic for a list-article, and maybe/possibly the 50 of this book might all be included into that.  I don't immediately find any other comparables, there is no Category:Ski descents (currently a redlink) or Category:Lists of ski descents (currently a redlink).  Does there exist even one article on the topic of a specific ski descent?  That would not be required, necessarily, to have a list of specific ski descents, though.  The "List of ski descents of Eight-Thousanders" links to a bunch of individual skiiers.  It would seem better to link to specific wp:anchors within articles about skiiers where the specific ski expeditions are covered. --Doncram (talk) 00:00, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment 2: Okay, i talked myself into this:  pioneering ski descents seem to be important/interesting, like the pioneering ascents / summitings of mountains.  The list-article should be kept, but reworked/developed into being a list of (notable) ski descents in North America.  A website about the book itself provides more info, including listing the 14 mountaineers/skiiers it interviews/features (some having Wikipedia articles already):
 * Hilaree O'Neill
 * Chris Davenport, "Davenport skied 2000 feet of the Lhotse Face on Mount Everest, described as 'one of just a handful of documented ski descents on the Lhotse Face'"
 * Lou Dawson
 * Andrew McLean
 * Pete Patterson
 * Jimmy Chin
 * Greg Hill
 * Kristoffer Erickson
 * Glen Plake "named the pioneer of extreme skiing in America" (per Wikipedia article quoting somewhere)
 * Lowell Skoog (currently a redlink) He himself reports, that among other accomplishments, with others he "also made pioneering ski descents on peaks such as Logan (1982), Fury (1985), Buckner (1999), Hurry Up (2002), Forbidden (2003) and Sinister (2005)." Lowell Skoog's "Classic Ski Descents", his full interview/account from which the "50" book excerpted (is that a word?), has two longish essay-like passages defining the term "classic ski descent", is a great source for a reworked list-article.
 * Mark Synnott
 * Ptor Spriceniets (currently a redlink, seems clearly Wikipedia-notable to me). He "gained notoriety for his 1995 first descent of the north face of Mt. Robson, the Canadian Rockies’ tallest summit" per "Go Your Own Way", April 2019 in Backcountry Magazine
 * Kevin Quinn
 * Eric Pehota "best known for his more than 40 first descents of mountains on skis" per Wikipedia
 * Many of them have won skiing championships and have been featured in extreme skiing films. Their (and others') notable ski descents in North America will be an interesting collection.
 * Note, I think it is not a problem that the accounts given in the 50 Classic Ski Descents book, and in other sources, will largely be from the skiiers themselves. That's how writing about mountaineering works... we know about famous ascents of mountains from the writings of the mountaineers themselves.  I myself very much enjoyed attending a speech/presentation/slideshow given a few years ago by English mountaineer Chris Bonington, covering numerous fascinating ascents or attempted ascents, including covering some deaths of fellow climbers.  Individual pioneering ski descents will also be significant, and are worth listing, IMHO. --Doncram (talk) 00:46, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Question (and answer): what was the famous annual downhill ski race in the U.S. or Canada, where everyone would circle their way around and down a certain route, until some guy accidentally or purposefully went over the edge and straight down, winning outrageously? Was that at Tuckerman Ravine?
 * "The Iconic Ski History of Tuckerman Ravine in the White Mountains" covers several first descents at Tuckerman's Ravine, including April 11, 1931 first "headwall drops" there, by John Carlton and Charley Proctor. Yes, that's the place, where Toni Matt, as part of the 1939 third "American Inferno" race down Mount Washington, bombed his way down the ravine, at least partly by accident (The Race for All Time: Celebrating Toni Matt's legendary schuss of the headwall 75 years ago. Cutting the race record almost in half, from around 12 minutes to around 6 minutes (only partly due to the shortcut taken).  This one has to be included! --Doncram (talk) 01:26, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.  The review notes, "Naturally, the photography is striking, both in capturing the inspiring beauty of landscapes and the spine-tingling expectations of what it must be like to pitch off a ridge and go for it with all the gusto needed to succeed."  The review notes, "The most impressive - and most expensive - I've seen this year is Chris Davenport's Fifty Classic Ski Descents of North America ($59.95, Wolverine Publishing). With its epic, jaw-on-the-floor photography, this book looks so good you might build a dedicated coffee table just for it. ... Davenport's book isn't as much a guide book as it is a get-amped-to-ski book."  The review notes, "the book details with vivid photography the most iconic descents on the continent" and "the narratives are as gripping as the photographs".  The review notes: "By contrast, Fifty Classic Ski Descents is a beautiful 12x13 coffee table book with stunning photographs of skiers on each route. The descriptions are bare bones, covering peak elevation, descent aspect, vertical feet, coordinates, and, if known, the first decent party. There is no information on the approach, or typical conditions, or the best time of year to attempt the descent, or a turn-by-turn description of the descent. As such, Davenport, Burrows, and Newhard get back to the adventurous spirit of the pioneers, allowing each potential ski mountaineer to find his or her own way." The review further notes, "While the book is meant to inspire, it is not an expert's only affair. Some of the routes will definitely challenge the best skiers in the world (and have only seen one descent), but some are in reach of intermediates. For instance, right after the descriptions of the North Face of North Maroon Peak and the Landry Route on Pyramid, Dawson describes the Silver Couloir on Buffalo Mountain in Summit County, Colo., an easily-accessible route and popular ski descent."  The review notes, "Spanning the Messner Couloir on Mount McKinley to Tuckerman Ravine on Mount Washington, you’ll find a dearth of actual route information. But the point is the stunning jaw-dropping images accompanied by brief anecdotes from Alpine legends like Lou Dawson and Andrew McLean. Notably absent was a ski descent or two in Mexico." <li> The review notes, "The large coffee table book is similar in style to Davenport·s first book, Ski the14ers. The eye catching, jaw dropping, mouth watering photos alone make Fifty Classic Ski Descents of North America well worth the price of a day lift ticket. Who wants to ride lifts, anyway? Especially after thumbing through this book, readers will be enticed to experience the rugged and wild backcountry."</li> <li> The review notes, "From the Tetons to Alaska, the Sierra Nevada to the Presidential Range, this beefy coffee-table book is a photographic journey to 50 of the most beautiful and iconic ski mountaineering routes in North America."</li> <li> The abstract notes, "The article reviews the book "Fifty Classic Ski Descents of North America" by Chris Davenport, Art Burrows and Penn Newhard."</li> <li></li> <li></li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow 50 Classic Ski Descents of North America to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 12:37, 1 February 2021 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * Thanks. With my browsing plus User:Cunard's helpful/surprising links, I have come around to agree that the book itself is notable, actually.  Although that doesn't require us to have an article about the book, narrowly. It can be left to interested editors willing to discuss at the Talk page of the article, but currently I think I would prefer to transform it to being a list about notable ski descents in North America, with many footnotes to the book, and with some explicit discussion of the book.  Either way, this amounts to "Keep:. --Doncram (talk) 00:48, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * By the way, I am corresponding with one of the 14 mountaineers, seeking relevant photos to add to the article, and he has replied; I am not sure if it will lead to some original photos of one or more of the significant first ski descents being contributed to Commons, or not. --Doncram (talk) 00:51, 3 February 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.