Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A.D. Penner


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. – bradv  🍁  15:12, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

A.D. Penner

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Biography of a small-town (pop. 15K) mayor, not reliably sourced as the subject of enough significant press coverage to clear WP:NPOL #2. As always, the notability test for mayors (especially mayors of small towns) is not just the ability to verify that they existed -- it requires the ability to write and reliably source a substantive article that contextualizes his political importance. But this is just a purely biographical sketch, referenced 75 per cent to bad sources: his paid-inclusion death notice in the newspaper classifieds, a (deadlinked) death notice on the self-published website of the funeral chapel that held his funeral, and a very short blurb about other people trying to organize a tribute to him after the funeral. The only source here that isn't completely worthless is a local history book, but even that was published by the local historical society through a print-on-demand house, so it doesn't clinch his notability all by itself if it's the only non-worthless source you can show. Nothing stated here is "inherently" notable enough to exempt him from having to show much better sourcing than this. Bearcat (talk) 04:04, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Bearcat (talk) 04:04, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Manitoba-related deletion discussions. Bearcat (talk) 04:04, 26 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Really Weak Keep - the town he was mayor in is the 3rd largest city in the entire providence. That may be the regional prominence per WP:POLOUTCOMES. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 08:58, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Mayoral notability is not a question of where the city ranks in an ordinal list — it always requires a substantive article that provides more context for his political importance and cites more sources than this, and the question of whether it's the largest, smallest or middlest city in any given region has nothing to do with it. Bearcat (talk) 01:11, 29 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete. Local politician which does not put him over the WP:POLITICIAN & WP:GNG guidelines. Lefcentreright  Talk  (plz ping) 10:57, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. BTW did you know...
 * ... that Wikipedia once deleted an article on a decade-long mayor of Baton Rouge, Louisiana?
 * ミラP 19:47, 26 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete when he was mayor the population was below 6,000. This is not the type of place that gives notability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:48, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Added three better sources. User:Mennowiki
 * You added three new sources, yes. They aren't better, or notability-clinching, ones: mayoral notability always still requires more than that. Bearcat (talk) 01:13, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Added another three more. Scholarly sources. These certainly are better. With the new sources I think this article should stay. The notability rests not simply on him being a mayor of small city, but also his economic impact and his transformative cultural impact, as established in the recently added scholarly sources (From U of T, for example). User:Mennowiki
 * People don't accumulate notability just because their name gets mentioned in a book that isn't about them in any non-trivial way. So to change the equation here, you have to do a lot more than just reference bomb one single, generic, quasi-promotional sentence with three book citations — it's not enough to just say that "he transformed Steinbach economically and contributed to the cultural assimilation of the Mennonites in southern Manitoba into mainstream society", if you can't or won't write any substantive content that explains how he accomplished those things. What specific things did he do to earn that claim? That's what might make a difference here, not just stating the claim as a given. Bearcat (talk) 00:30, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
 * The article has been rewritten now, with better scholarly sources, to emphasize and address the specific concerns that Bearcat has. Penner is not notable for being a mayor of a small town, but for his cultural and economic impact on the Kleine Gemeinde Mennonites. I believe the article, as it now stands, is substantive and specific. User:Mennowiki —Preceding undated comment added 02:07, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Tending towards delete; however, just to be cautious, going ahead (begrudgingly) with this relist
 * Keep I do think the article should stay. While this article would clearly not meet notability for the subject's contributions as a politician. It does seem to meet notability as a community founder, builder and establisher of a relatively notable ethno-cultural group within a nation or region. I would also think that this article would benefit from some additional credible sources however. In the meantime the article should remain, not based on his contribution as a politician, but rather as a builder and integrator of an ethno-cultural group.  Krazytea  (talk) 17:35, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Lourdes  13:41, 3 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Has anybody actually assessed this page as something other than a political page? I believe this article is being considered as a town/city founder and builder, of which him being a politician is only a footnote. There are plenty of similar articles on Wikipedia including for example Alexander Majors, William D. Brown, or Frederick H. Billings as three random examples. Now if under these criteria A.D. Penner does not meet notability, that is fine. If this article is simply being assessed as a now deceased, small town mayor, that is an injustice.  Krazytea  (talk) 05:22, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment This strikes me as really grey in terms of notability - he's not notable for being the mayor per NPOL, there's enough sources in the article I can't access that aren't about him being a mayor, he was talked about a bit by the Winnipeg Free Press. I'm not sure how independent the Mennonite books are. I've been on the wrong side of articles for "big fish in small pond" articles before - a prominent person in a small community. I really can't determine if WP:GNG is met here, so I'm the weakest possible keep. SportingFlyer  T · C  12:36, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment I agree the original article was problematic in terms of sources and not establishing notability. I agree with Kraytea's comments, that the article should be reassessed based on the new academic sources and the notability of A.D. Penner should be judged based on his unique cultural and economic impact in southern Manitoba. The fact is, and the sources (especially Royden Loewen (U of T)) attest to this, the Mennonites of southern Manitoba would be significantly less assimilated had it not been for A.D. Penner. Now, whether this impact is enough to warrant an article can be debated, but as Krazytea pointed out, I hope it's being assessed with this impact in mind. The fact he was mayor is secondary. User:Mennowiki

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  N0nsensical.system (err0r?)(.log) 09:41, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
 * keep Notable impact on a certain community, which is not at all "a small pond". Staszek Lem (talk) 17:05, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:HEY. It's a different article, . Bearian (talk) 01:16, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
 * The AFD process does not require me to come back and withdraw or revise my nomination statement, or even to have ever looked at this page again. If enough other people are convinced that the article has been improved enough to be keepable now, then it can get kept whether I change my mind or not — so there's no need to ping me in your responses, because my followup attention is not required. Bearcat (talk) 02:37, 18 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep. Now shows accomplishment. Hyperbolick (talk) 22:13, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:HEY. Seems to meet WP:GNG now. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:26, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep - WP:HEY - credit to Mennowiki for working so hard. --DannyS712 (talk) 06:01, 20 February 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.