Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A. T. Powers (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. &mdash;Darkwind (talk) 03:22, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

A. T. Powers
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Local pastor who served as the American Baptist Association leader for two years in the 1950s. This article was created for self-promotion. User:Billy Hathorn, now banned but still active with sock puppets, started this article, which is mainly sourced to one article written by Hathorn in a local history journal (also up for afd at Articles for deletion/North Louisiana History (North Louisiana History nomination)). Out of the 21 citations, Hathorn cited himself more than half the times. There is one trivial mention by the NY Times in the 1950s, the book that mentions Powers by name in the title ("Austin T. Powers As I Knew Him") exists in no library in the world, a minor mention in the Minden Herald in the 1940s, and two speeches (Presidential addresses) he made that aren't published (Hathorn tends to source items that can't be verified in published sources, see "Statement of Jack D. Tharpe" in Articles for deletion/Jimmy G. Tharpe (2nd nomination)).

Powers fails to meet Notability (people), especially shown with the depths of sources Hathorn used: trival mentions from the 1940/1950s, Hathorn's own article and a book you can't get from any library. It seems like this article was simply one of many articles User:Billy Hathorn created to promote his work, and is one reason the community was annoyed and led to his ban. (See: "Billy Hathorn appears to create a new article for every single obituary or newspaper story he reads" at Requests for comment/Billy Hathorn.)

This was previously nominated for deletion two years ago, but the AFD was withdrawn by nominator, who wrote: "I take the addition by Billy Hathorn in good faith as accurate, and while difficult to verify..." This is "still difficult to verify" and given Hathorn's behavior, his promotion of his own work about unnotable people and ban since, I think this is worth closer look.

Also Hathorn, but it is unclear if how he has the rights to upload it. Given the history he has of uploading images that aren't his, its likely another copy-vio. SalHamton (talk) 07:50, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2013 March 28.  Snotbot   t &bull; c &raquo;  08:07, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Texas-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:45, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:46, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:46, 28 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep He was the leader of a nationwide religious group.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:54, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Zero google news hits for "American Baptist Association" Austin Powers and one hit for "American Baptist Association" "AT Powers". So there is one mention of him and this organization. I will quote the complete mention (it's in the wiki article too): "The Rev 'AT Powers, La., was elected president of the American Baptist Association last night" (NYT, 1957) Thus, he fails WP:GNG as it not only lacks "significant coverage," this person lacks even basic coverage. If being the leader of the ABA was important, there should be several non-trivial mentions in the last 60 years about him. SalHamton (talk) 20:16, 28 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete – The sources provided simply do not add up to notability. The only one that comes near is the NYT and a passing mention concerned more with the organisation than the person is trivial. The Bogard Press is an in-house ABA publishing house and not really third-party.  Hathorn's book is unidentifiable and in any case must have been more about Clover that Powers (All the page numbers lie between 127 and 135)  As stated above, the article was nominated for deletion two years ago and was spared on the grounds that notability was difficult to verify but there has been no improvement and my own searches on Google produced nothing of relevance. Jpacobb (talk) 00:02, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Good point. I didn't catch that all of Powers' mentions from the only independent source lay within 7 pages. SalHamton (talk) 20:07, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Hathorn gave no indication of the publisher etc of the "book". Additional investigation shows that the references are to an article in North Louisiana History a local journal which is itself subject of an AfD as not notable and is obviously a "local source".


 * Keep -- Though his tenure would be shorter, I would suggest that President of a major denomination such as American Baptist Association is the equivalent of being a bishop in a major episcopal denomination. For some one who died so long ago, Ghits is probably not a good test.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:36, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:BIO requires "the person has received a well-known and significant award or honor" OR "has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field." One way to see if a person is notable is is searching news databases and book databases that scan literature for the last several hundred years. There was ONE trivial mention for this person. Thus, a reasonable impression from that is he is not notable based on the lack of coverage. Ghits have nothing to do with this.
 * The American Baptists were never a "major denomination." The American Baptist's self-published numbers (I use with caution) in 1931 were 116,562 members and for 2009 it lists 100,000 supporters. So even by using their inflated self-published numbers, they haven't grown, but have a net loss over the last 80 years. Contrast with the Southern Baptist Convention that has 16 million. More than that if they do have 1,600 churches and 100,000 members that means each church has a mere 62 people in them. Very small even if we assume the numbers of people and churches aren't inflated at each level of reporting. Those self-published numbers reveal why we found one source: the American Baptists are a marginal group within the Baptist sect, which itself is merely a fraction in the Protestant sect. Thus, there is little, if any, coverage.
 * But let's pretend it were a "major denomination". Per BIO, each person must have sources to prove that they "made a widely recognized contribution." There is no evidence that AT Powers has done this. SalHamton (talk) 19:21, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


 * delete per nom. Pass a Method   talk  14:53, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete. This article appears to be weaving a bunch of minor mentions into a biography of an allegedly notable figure.  If the Rev. Powers were the equivalent of an Episcopal bishop, then there would be a multi-page obituary about him in the New York Times, as I've personally seen about bishops of the same time period in the NYT, not just this one sentence mention. I think some editors may mistakenly think that the ABA is the equivalent of something like the 16 million member Southern Baptist Convention, but our own article on the American Baptist Association gives no indication it is anything but a very minor branch or twig of the large tree that is American Baptism.  Gamaliel (talk) 19:26, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep - A better view of sources is He does seem to be notable (frequently cited) for being an author of an authoritative history of 50 years of the American Baptist Association.   which is cited in at least     This indicates that he "has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field." SBaker43 (talk) 00:14, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * You claim he is "frequently cited," but following that link on google books you posted about Austin Powers, I get 29 hits TOTAL, which are all trivial mentions or his own self-published work. In contrast, Jared Diamond's single book Guns, Germs, and Steel has more than 26,000 hits on google books. Diamond's book is frequently cited, Powers' work is not. When his book about the ABA (published by the ABA) is mentioned in those examples, it is merely a trivial bibliographic listing. I'll give the full quotes of The American Baptist Association, 1924-1974 in those books you listed above:
 * "Encyclopedia Of Religion In The South". Clover and his co-author are only mentioned in the bibliography. The full mention is: "Conrad N. Glover and Austin T. Powers, The American Baptist Association, 1924-1974.
 * "Religions of the World." Clover and his co-author are only mentioned in the bibliography. The full mention on page 90 is: "Conrad N. Glover and Austin T. Powers, The American Baptist Association, 1924-1974
 * "Religion in the Southern States: A Historical Study." The full mention on page 56 is: "Conrad N. Glover and Austin T. Powers, The American Baptist Association, 1924-1974
 * "Encyclopedia of Southern Baptists." The full mention on page 2080 is: "Conrad N. Glover and Austin T. Powers, The American Baptist Association, 1924-1974
 * Thus, none of these sources actually discussed the book or its author. In fact, in those examples mentioned, the book was merely included in the bibliography often with hundreds of other books. In the case of "Encyclopedia of Southern Baptists," it is one of thousands of books mentioned. Every single example you gave is 1) not actually about Powers, 2) does not include an analysis or review of his book, 3) is trivial and 4) Powers is not even the first author of the book cited.
 * There are no multiple non-trivial sources to meet WP:GNG and your above search proves that. Not only is GNG policy, but it is a good policy because you can't make an article about a person without sources about that person. SalHamton (talk) 01:55, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.