Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ATK–Mohun Bagan


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. There seems to be no disagreement that the two clubs have merged, but there is a lack of clarity on what the new name of the club will be. Since there is not a strong consensus within this discussion, I think it's best to wait for more clarity (i.e. if the club itself makes an official announcement about its new name) and then do any moves/merges/redirects that are required. This problem will be far easier to solve when there is clear evidence of the club's name. ‑Scottywong | [confabulate] || 07:23, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

ATK–Mohun Bagan

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Procedural nomination. The subject seems to exist and has many Google News hits, but there have been claims that this is nevertheless a hoax. Adam9007 (talk) 16:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete: per WP:HOAX, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:RUMOUR. No such club exists. The existing Mohun Bagan A.C. article will be updated when something is annoucned from the club. A rumour based article, total hoax. Status of the clubs will be revealed after a board meeting of both the clubs, nothing is official yet and meeting is yet to take place. reference for clarification. Drat8sub (talk) 16:45, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , I don't understand why XFD is done here instead of the speedy deletion. When no such club exist and when those article on google are just speculation and rumours why there is a need of discussion. I would also like to invite most experienced editors from WP:IFTF,, and  to put their thoughts. Drat8sub (talk) 16:56, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you have any reason to believe that this article was created in bad faith? A hoax is a deliberate attempt to deceive. From what I can see, this is probably just a misunderstanding. Adam9007 (talk) 17:05, 17 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes, I've enough reason for that, you will simply understand the POV pushing happening at both club articles and can go through the talk pages of the articles. This was not a misunderstanding but a deliberate attempt that we have seen in the respective articles and social media. Because in clear words everything is mentioned in the Mohun Bagan and ATK articles' talk pages. Drat8sub (talk) 17:12, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 17:16, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 17:16, 17 June 2020 (UTC)


 * We go by what reliable sources say, not editors' own opinions. This name is confirmed by, , and many others found by the Google News search linked at the top of this discussion. Maybe there are inaccuracies in the article, but it is nothing like a hoax, and the fact that an editor chose to edit-war over the speedy deletion tag casts doubt on the good faith being shown here. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:41, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * And just I was looking for further sources the first I saw was "ATK Mohun Bagan Private Limited incorporated with the Ministry of Corporate Affairs", published today by Goal.com. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:45, 17 June 2020 (UTC)


 * , this is not my opinion, the club has said after a board meeting they will reveal name, then those article does not count. More than that the article is not saying it is the official name, they just said the clubs are merged, well written in the Mhun Bagan and ATK articles. These are all speculation. I have added a ciation for clarification also. Secondly, the articles that you have mentioned says ATK-Mohun Bagan will play in the continental, no doubt they will but not as new entity, because a new entity cannot play in the continental level, this is a fact, rules of AFC. That's why said, you should have consulted with the editors who are working on Indian football articles. . Drat8sub (talk) 17:51, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That Goal areticle is total crap. Reason I've mentioned much before at the article talk page. Nothing is official, the club will reveal everything. Since when wikipedia is creating articles on speculation. Above that it violated WP:NOTNEWS, WP:RUMOUR. Drat8sub (talk) 17:55, 17 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment At best, this is the case of WP:TOOSOON, at worst this should be deleted. Though the club may have been created as new entity, it's just ATK investor taking controlling share in Mohun Bagan club. In my opinion, when more details emerge, Mohun Bagan A.C. should be moved to new page, with whatever the new name is. Coderzombie (talk) 04:28, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 11:54, 18 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep - on the basis that a new club called 'ATK-Mohun Bagan' exists per this and other sources. It is standard when two existing clubs merge to create a new article, see eg Dagenham F.C. + Redbridge Forest F.C. = Dagenham & Redbridge F.C.... GiantSnowman 11:58, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , Did you read all the comments above? First, since when articles are created on specualtion? Show me one article where the clubs say that the name is ATK-Mohun Bagan. Show me one citation where the clubs say this will be a new club. Citations can say anything, untill and unless there is any offical annoucement from club, that the new name will be this or there will be a new club, we even cannot write anything, creating new article far from this. The merger thing is well written in the clubs article? Giant you are one from whom I used to learn, but this is gross violation of WP:NPOV to show an example of another club to justify another situation where the borad meeting are yet to take place and official announcemnet are yet to be there. Is wikipedia now creating on WP:CRYSTALBALL/WP:NOTRUMOR/WP:NOTNEWS ? This one is a classic case of cystalball for sure. Drat8sub (talk) 13:41, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * And more then that Coderzombie and me re-iterated the same thing, we know Indian football much better than anyone else, because we are well aware of facts and rules. Mohun Bagan got the continental slot, so they will play in the AFC Cup, but to play in the continental level a new club cannot play there, for a new club it has to play from lower division to higher division. So there will be new name, but new club, they will go with the history of either ATK or Mohub Bagan, to justify that they are not new club. And thats why once the borad meeting will be there an dthere is an official announcemnt from the meeting, we can create write and do anything else, not before that. This is not official !!! Period. If anybody counter, show me one proof that the clubs officially named it as ATK-Mohun Bagan and they annoucned it will be a new entity. Drat8sub (talk) 13:50, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * OK literally in the strapline of the article I shared - "The new entity will be called ATK-Mohun Bagan and will come into existence from June 1". GiantSnowman 14:46, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , the new entity "will be", who told them that it will be called this, the clubs are yet to tell the official name, they are yet to take decision, no matter if this will be the same name they keep. Let's accept its a crystball. Drat8sub (talk) 15:18, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Drat8sub, you seem not to accept anything written by an independent secondary source in the absense of an announcement on one of these clubs' web site. That is not how Wikipedia works. We prefer such independent secondary sources to primary sources such as club web sites. And your statement about the AFC Cup is pure original research. We don't go by your interpretation of the rules, but by what is written in reliable sources such as I linked above. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:54, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , such an absurdity. Written in the article "ISL winners ATK Mohun Bagan", ISL winner is ATK not ATK-MohunBagan 1, this is fact manupulation to justify the later satement, in the same article where they've written "since Mohun Bagan and ATK to merge". So, still you want to go with such a crap citation where they are delivering a false information, a winner's name and manipulating to justify their opinion to look like a fact. I am disgusted. And FYI anyone can write on goal.com, many football enthusiat write on goal.com. Drat8sub (talk) 15:18, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * And no one questioning merge, that why the merging things are well written in the clubs' article. The question here is the name, which is not an official and these citation failed to justify why they ahve written it. Its just for publication purpose to bring more readers to read. Drat8sub (talk) 15:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * and, here for you, hope will convince finally, most credible news atleast not like a crap source like Goal.com(it has several times spread rumours regarding players and club), this one from yesterday, TOI through PTI says clearly, So, this article is simple out of crystalball and rumours, nothing fact based. Drat8sub (talk) 15:50, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You haven't actually read/understood CRYSTALBALL have you? It clearly says "it is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, if discussion is properly referenced [...] Individual scheduled or expected future events should be included only if the event is notable and almost certain to take place". Will this topic be notable? Yes. It is likely to happen? Yes. Therefore the article remains. In short, topics which might or are going to happen can be notable, and that extends to events or entities which might never materialise, see e.g. List of future stadiums. I have made my point, you have made your point, you cannot persuade me otherwise, please stop pinging me. GiantSnowman 16:09, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No one questioning the merging, no one questioning the notability, but it is notable and likely to happen, that a new name will be revealed but the subject of the article is not merging event, but a new club, if the title of the article is kept as "Merging of ATK and Mohun Bagan" then your argument justifies. We are talking about the name of club, which is not justified by Cball where it says almost certain to take place. No one is certain that the club name will be ATK-Mohunbangan. And list of future stadium is there because names are proposed for every construction project. Drat8sub (talk) 16:39, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry, for the repeated ping, it must have gone becasue of repeated correction, apologise for that. Drat8sub (talk) 00:43, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't rely on that article. Indian journalism is... well, not always perfect. First, from all official sources and other independent sources, this isn't a "merger", this is more RPSG Group buying an 80% stake in Mohun Bagan and will merge the ATK brand with the Mohun Bagan one and also form a new corporation for Mohun Bagan. This is from sources such as from The Hindu where they say "The new football club will have brand names of ATK and Mohun Bagan." meaning that the club hasn't even come up with a name yet. Outlook India states the same. This article from Scroll has the press release which literally says "The new football club will have brand names of ATK and Mohun Bagan". On June 1, we were supposed to get the new name, the new brand, the new logo... everything. But of course, that was postponed. It could be ATK Mohun Bagan (which would be the same as the usual when Mohun Bagan has a sponsor in their name) or ATK-Mohun Bagan or something else. I think we should wait until then and for now Delete this article and re-direct this to Mohun Bagan. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:27, 18 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment I'm not understanding this nomination. Consensus is that the club exists, but the name isn't final? There's been many a team article for a new team in a top league created after the team is announced, but before it is named. As such, shouldn't this be an article name discussion, not a delete discussion? Is there something about the notability that I'm missing? Nfitz (talk) 22:13, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * To provide some clarity... we don't know what is going on. Coming into 2020 we had two clubs, ATK and Mohun Bagan. In January 2020, ATK's owners RPSG Group bought an 80% ownership stake into Mohun Bagan with Mohun Bagan owning the other 20%. It was said officially that the "new club" would involve a "merger" of the two brands ATK and Mohun Bagan. Nothing more has been said other than that on June 1, 2020 the official name, brand, and everything else would be announced. Due to Covid, that didn't happen and we don't know when it will. As of this moment, we don't know if this is a new club or not. It could be a brand new club but it could also just be ATK folding and Mohun Bagan continuing but with a different name. This is not like Major League Soccer where they announce a new expansion club and all of a sudden we get an article for Charlotte MLS team or something. We don't know what this is yet officially.


 * In the end, what should happen is we delete this page and redirect to Mohun Bagan for now. We update the Mohun Bagan history section to include recent events plus maybe stating that an announcement did not occur due to Covid-19. Because that is literally what is happening. There is no new club yet. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 03:58, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , yes club exists and the article for that club already exists, its the Mohun Bagan A.C.. The owner of the ATK (football club), RPSG Group bought share of Mohun Bagan and decided that their newly formed club ATK will be merged to Mohun Bagan and a new name, new brand name, new board will be there as happen in all club for example when some comapny buys shares. For e.g when Quess Group bought share of East Bengal team they named the East Bangal team as Quess East Bengal for sponsorship. Similarly, here also the Mohun Bagan team will be named with a prefix or suffix of the company/their club (which no one knows) who bought share. Now, so called football websites/Indian media get this whole thing wrong or deliberately done to get views or to create rumours, that it will be totaly a new club which is not the case, as if you go through The Hindu or TOI, you will find exact description not these Goal.com or KhelNow as described above by other editors too. This is not a new club, this is renaming of existing club with a prefix or suffix as a company bought a share who have a club and merged their club to the existing club. Not a new club popping out. Drat8sub (talk) 00:41, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Notice: This page has been semi-protected to prevent further block evasion of 78.1.13.211 and 78.0.160.0/19. This discussion is contentious and contains removed comments. It should only be closed by an administrator who has also evaluated the removed comments. Please do not non-admin close this discussion. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 13:25, 23 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: I just want to point out here that both the ATK social media channels and the Mohun Bagan social media channels are still posting as if they are separate clubs. Nothing has been rebranded yet or merged. Meanwhile, on the official Indian Super League channels, it is still mentioned as ATK and using the ATK logo. The league website itself still has them listed as just "ATK". This is why I think this article is very premature. The Covid-19 situation has made the situation complicated but what is known right now is that for now, both ATK and Mohun Bagan are separate. In regards to the future, no one knows for sure what is going on. We don't know if this will be a brand new club (like how Seattle Sounders (1994–2008) became Seattle Sounders FC) or a merger/keeping the history of one of the club's.


 * I notice this conversation has become dormant so I would like to wake it up and call on   and  to provide some further discussion. There are also points above that have not been responded too. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:47, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Initially Drat8sub annoyed me by firstly claiming that this was a hoax, which it certainly wasn't, and then by edit-warring the speedy deletion template back into the article after I had removed it, so my opinion might be prejudiced by this. There has certainly been plenty of discussion of this which I still think probably amounts to notability even if this doesn't go through in the end. The title can be changed if needed, but the important issue is that we should have coverage of this proposed merger. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:58, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed with Phil Bridger. Hoaxes (which this is not) and events that never happen (as this might be) can still be notable. Badgering us isn't going to change that fact, or our opinions. GiantSnowman 20:04, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, whatever may be wrong with this article, the merge (whether it actually happens or not) has plenty of coverage in the media, and therefore seems to meet WP:GNG. Adam9007 (talk) 21:21, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Look, I am not trying to badger you guys. Drat's comments are his own and he shouldn't have gone off the handle the way he did. The reason I tagged you guys again is because it was almost a week since the last comment and there were points not commented on. I agree, there should be a section covering this "merger" but the thing is... there is no proof that this is an actual merger yet. All we know officially is that ATK's owner, RSPG Group, bought an 80% stake in Mohun Bagan. That is all. We don't have any further official details other than that. I think we need a section in the ATK (football club) article describing what is happening from an ATK perspective and a section in the Mohun Bagan page from that perspective and then leave it at that. Thoughts? --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 00:13, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Phil_Bridger, I did not do any edit warring, reverting once, is not edit waring at all. I did not make any single edit in the article after that. And when you have opened the thread I did participate in that, to get to know if I did anything wrong or what is the reason behind your edit. You simply add a citation which is giving false fact, as written above claiming the champion of the ISL as ATK-Mohun Bagan, where as the champion is ATK and so how can you trust sources like that. So, please don't take anything personal just because we've differences, I don't think alleging is working here in anyway and we need to think staright and work together. Drat8sub (talk) 01:49, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Giant, I always look up to you here. If you says its not hoax, fine. But let me know one thing, when the concerned club article is already exist along with the new name is yet to be decided and annoucned, does this article belong here? Atleast isn't it belong to TOOSOON, isn't it NOTNEWS? See, fake news/rumour are very big issue in India, a simple google search will tell you how its affecting every thing, check what IFCN tells about Indian media. And in football, rumours is common and very big deal that we often see about signing of players and often have to deal in wikipedia articles. For example, do we annouce any Presidential/PM canditate as elected based on opinions polls or post election polls, no, the similar case happening here, its a general opinion of all website that the following the merger the name, logo staus etc will be this and that and an wikipedia article is creating on this kind of opinion. We simply not badging. I've said anyone can write in such website, no accountability. My suggestion was we could have wait for it, due to Covid situation the meeting could not have happened on the scheduled time which further ignite these rumours, and as the TOI article says everything will soon be annouced, if such article needed to be created we can create, the article itself helping those rumours now. Even if you think I did any mistake I'm simply sorry for that. Drat8sub (talk) 01:49, 25 June 2020 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fenix down (talk) 06:45, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect to ATK Mohun Bagan F.C. - Kori das   📣 22:33, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: Oh jesus christ, there is another page!? Can someone explain to me why this one should be the redirected to page? There is no source that says that the team name will be "ATK Mohun Bagan F.C.". This is starting to become ridiculous. You have editors on here who are not responding and editors from Kolkata who quite frankly are fanatics in the worst way who just want to create a page so they can say they have. Can someone just tell us, once and for all, where is the proof that there is an actual merger and that the name will be ATK Mohun Bagan. That is all I want. Right now, officially, from what I know, something was supposed to happen on June 1... but nothing did. The Indian Super League is still referring to ATK as ATK and other media is referring to Mohun Bagan as Mohun Bagan. We have goal.com mentioning a registry name but nothing official about the club name, for the club playing in the 2020–21 Indian Super League season, being ATK-Mohun Bagan or ATK Mohun Bagan F.C. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 22:47, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , but AIFF is mentioning ATK Mohunbagan. and the ATK Mohun Bagan F.C. is older and more factual.  ❯❯❯  S A H A   16:45, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No, it isn't. Where has it ever been mentioned that there is an "F.C." in the name? Also, has an official name been announced formally? Do we have any branding? Is this even a separate club or a continuation of Mohun Bagan or ATK? None of this has been answered yet. The AIFF mentioned ATK Mohun Bagan in one article and just discussed them as a joint venture. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 16:52, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , it is a football club. so, fc will be there. mohunbagan was established as athletic club, so they mention AC  ❯❯❯  S A H A   16:55, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That makes no sense! I support the New York Red Bulls and they don't have FC or anything like that. Just because they are a football club doesn't mean they get "FC". --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 17:11, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , That's not a huge issue. It can be moved later. also, American soccer clubs don't use FC/SC. but, almost every association football clubs use.  ❯❯❯  S A H A   17:30, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * American clubs do use FC. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:38, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , 50-50. but other than that, almost all association football clubs use fc/sc/ac whatever.  ❯❯❯  S A H A   18:44, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Cool... so does it make sense that F.C. is automatically included here? I get you want to create the article for the sake of it but don't add something that has never been said officially. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:49, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * , as I said, not a huge issue. it can be easily moved.  ❯❯❯  S A H A   19:26, 30 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Redirect to ATK Mohun Bagan F.C.: created before, properly sourced and more factual. citations-      ❯❯❯  S A H A   16:53, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect both this page and ATK Mohun Bagan F.C. to Mohun Bagan A.C. – until a formal announcement is made, both articles should be redirected to the Mohun Bagan page. Nothing has been announced yet. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 16:56, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Why MB, and why not ATK? ATK is the major shareholder. and I didnt revert. I am new to the conflict resolving tool.   ❯❯❯  S A H A   17:26, 30 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep and, if necessary, Move should a different name be announced at a later date. Spike &#39;em (talk) 18:30, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. The existence of the football club, to the best of my knowledge, is hardly in doubt; rather it is the name. The name of the club should not be a reason to delete, and it is no difficult task to move it to the right name if the final name is different. This isn't a hoax at any rate.  Java Hurricane  02:00, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: I don't think it is just the name that is in doubt but the status of a new club. Will this "new team" be Mohun Bagan but rebranded with ATK in the name or will this be a brand new club. That is my argument. At the end of the day, we might not need a new page, just a rename of the Mohun Bagan page. The reason I think that is because the ATK owners, RPSG Group bought a stake in Mohun Bagan. Not the club, but the club's owners bought a stake in Bagan. We hear the word merger but is it a merger of the two clubs or is it just a "faux merger" in that the only merging done is ATK's name being added to Mohun Bagan's name? We have precedence for this before, with Mohun Bagan being known as McDowell's Mohun Bagan at one point due to them being partly owned by Vijay Mallya and his United Breweries Group. That is why I think this article is a bit premature right now. It was created after 1 June when the "merger" was supposed to take place but didn't due to Covid-19. Nothing was announced or finalized. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 14:03, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , mcdowell mb is not the same as atk MB. city group bought shares in Mumbai city, but the clubs didn't merge. they are operating multiple clubs simultaneously. now, if goenka have operated 2 clubs, then the situation would have been different. but, this is a case of club merger like psg.  ❯❯❯  S A H A   11:36, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll say this one more time and then I'm leaving this discussion to a closing admin... this is like McDowell and Mohun Bagan. ATK isn't buying into Mohun Bagan and this is not a classic "merger". In this situation, the owners of ATK separately have bought an 80% stake in Mohun Bagan. ATK is going to disband but the branding will be worked into Mohun Bagan, to what extent, we will see. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 16:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Note to closing admin - has been canvassing. GiantSnowman 11:51, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Please note that is not my intention at all to sway. Almost a week went with no response, even after the AfD was relisted. I wanted to provide some context and I provided sources to do so. If people read it and decide keep, that is fine and I am more than happy to go with consensus in the end. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 13:50, 1 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete - Per all the discussion here, it seems clear to me that the merger in question has not taken place. Articles and previous announcements may say this was going to happen on June 1st but due to ongoing circumstances that came into doubt and nothing further was mentioned. This club, effectively, does not exist yet. Until an announcement or official release is put out, this is a case of WP:TOOSOON.
 * Redirect to ATK Mohun Bagan F.C.. There's no doubt that there's notability here, and there's no doubt that ATK Mohun Bagan F.C. is a better location for an article. What the final name of the article should be is unknown ... but this shouldn't be a deletion debate. But no prejudice against future redirect, renaming, or merging discussions when more is known. But perhaps hold off until there's some news? Nfitz (talk) 21:12, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: Reading over these comments, and looking at this article, I guess the question I now have is, whatever the page is between this one and ATK Mohun Bagan F.C., should we rename one of them to New Kolkata ISL club. This would basically be the same as in Major League Soccer, when they announce new expansion clubs but there is no name yet... so like Charlotte MLS team and St. Louis MLS team. The article above pretty much mentions that there probably will be a new team but with nothing confirmed, I think the best course of action, from an encyclopedia perspective, is to say New Kolkata ISL team. Thoughts? --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:21, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * So basically have an opener along the lines of this with more relevant information. If it does turn out to be just Mohun Bagan continuing as one entity then we can merge, if not, we can push on with the new article. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 21:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , it was clearly mentioned in the press release of mohunbagan, that it will be both clubs and not one. so, there's no question whether mohunbagan will be continuing as one entity.  ❯❯❯  S A H A   06:45, 2 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: most probably the board meeting will be held on 10th of this month. so, we should wait before taking any other step.  ❯❯❯  S A H A   06:48, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * source  ❯❯❯  S A H A   11:38, 3 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.