Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A A Baig & Co., Chartered Accountants


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was delete, no prejudice to recreation by users independent of the subject. --Core desat 04:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

A A Baig &amp; Co., Chartered Accountants

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

This article has a bit of history. It used to be a user page (User:Aabaig) I speedy deleted. The deletion was contested by the user on his talk page, asserting his company did meet the WP:CORP criteria. Since we both disagreed, I moved the page to the article space and I am bringing it to AfD. My opinion is that despite the fact that this company is on a list of accredited companies (with ~30 other companies from Pakistan), it does not make it notable, and its small size (30 employees) doesn't help. Delete -- lucasbfr talk 12:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Note - Article is also under discussion here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam


 * Delete per nominator; non-notable. Riana (talk)  12:52, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. multi article linkspaming for aabaig.com by 124.29.203.33 also presents a problem. see WikiProject Spam case --Hu12 13:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Request not to be Deleted. You guys may rather advise me to make necessary changes within the article to make it more appropriate and acceptable as per your regulations. I would also appreciate if you consider the following facts: a) This firm has around 100 employees if you include the employees which are hired by the firm but outsourced to various local and multinational organizations all over the country. The concept is known as Staff Leasing or HR Outsourcing. Since, such employees are hired purely for specific clients and are used there dedicatedly for long periods, such employees are not included by the firm in its manpower strength. b) Pakistan has more than 500 Accountancy Practicing Firms all working under license from the profession's regulatory body - the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Pakistan, however, only around 90 odd firms have satisfactory Quality Control Ratings. This firm is one of them. c) This firm was one of the first few professional firms / companies to have been given the status of ACCA Accredited Employer by ACCA even before companies such as Unilever Pakistan, Proctor & Gamble Pakistan, etc were given the same status. d) This firm's IS/IT Division's main clientele is UK based and the IS/IT Division's offices are also located in Leicestershire as well as in Newcastle - UK. Having offshore offices is a rarity among Accountancy / Consulting Firms in Pakistan. e)The firm's growth rate during the last financial year has been more than 100%. f)Keeping in view the fact that in Pakistan, there are only 5004 Chartered Accountants with 20% of them (around 1000) overseas, so from the point of view of Pakistanis and several other South Asians, this firm might justify a place at Wikipedia. g)You must note that Pakistan's economy is a growing one with one of the highest GDP growth rates in the world during the last consecutive three financial years. The economy is booming and so are professional service providers. This firm has grown from a relatively small sole practice into a medium size practice within a very short span of time (within five years). This too is an achievement for this firm. h)If you look at this firm's clientele, you will see that there are several top financial institutions which shows this firm's credibility. i) I will also appreciate if you look at the following wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzzacott "Buzzacott is a mid-sized London Accountancy firm based in a single office in the City. Buzzacott Lillywhite began trading in the City of London in 1919, by the late 1960’s the firm was working for a number of religious and charitable clients. Indeed, not-for-profit remains one of the firm's seven specialist teams together with corporate, private client, expatriate, VAT, IT & consulting and financial services. Buzzacott is a growing firm with around 200 employees and 18 partners and was ranked 30th in 2007 (with an income of £15m) in the Accountancy Age list of the top 50 accountancy firms." My reservation is that if a single office, single city firm which comes at number '30' in UK can justify a space at wikipedia, why cannot a multi office international firm like AAB justify a space at wikipedia. You may also visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergroup and you will understand my point more clearly. Please reconsider. Thankyou --Ahson Tariq — Ahson Tariq (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Neutral Response: Maybe if you were to have put that information in the article, rather than your list of services, representative clients and alliances, this wouldn't be so quick to be deleted. I'm well aware that firms such as yours pay of listings in directories, just as law firms list such information in "Martindale-Hubbell".  I'll concede that articles like the one on accounting giant [PricewaterhouseCoopers]] have a list of their clientele, which may be considered "informational", but Wikipedia should NOT be advertising.  A small firm that is striving to become a larger one is, essentially, advertising.  If you want to see an example of a professional firm description that lists its offices, see Greenberg Traurig.  Bear in mind, however, that the large firms built their notability before there was a World Wide Web.  Mandsford 22:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete -- Spammy goodness (SPA/COI diatribe not withstanding). /Blaxthos 14:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Spamming Unintentional, not SPA and COI not relevant The spamming was not intentional and Hu cleared it to me earlier and I understood and noted his point. The issue of COI is not relevant here since the same info may be posted by tens of thousands of other people who know of this firm and they would more or less post the same facts about the firm. Lastly, the issue of SPA. Since this account has been created just today, you cannot classify it as SPA and you should wait for a while to see what range of topics is the particular user interested in.Ahson Tariq (talk • contribs
 * Delete per nom. Fails WP:CORP.  Ashon, thank you for bringing Buzzacott and Intergroup to our attention - they should be deleted as well, and the appropriate procedures have been started. Tevildo 14:19, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * WP:CORP I have read WP:CORP and I do not see how the article under discussion violates any of the regulations / requirements mentioned in WP:CORP. It would be more fruitful if you explain the specific area where this article is in conflict. Maybe your'e right and that particular conflict can be removed from this article instead of deleting it altogether.Ahson Tariq (talk • contribs
 * From WP:CORP - "Trivial or incidental coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not sufficient to establish notability." The only secondary sources currently listed on the page are the various professional regulatory bodies and associations that your firm is a member of, none of which count as non-trivial.  We'll need an article that's specifically about your firm, not just its inclusion in a list of similar, non-notable, firms. Tevildo 14:26, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ref | WP:CORP - ACCA is the world's largest accountancy body and has been around for over a hundred (yes over 100) years and has members in over 170 countries - Calling such an organization "TRIVIAL" is an absurdity. Moreover, we are not just a member of this International Accountancy Body, we are its "Accredited Employers" and there are not many in Pakistan who have this status. Coming to the second Accountancy Regulatory Body - Institute of Chartered Accountants of Pakistan - then again, we are not only just a member of this Regulatory Body, we are one of the few firms in Pakistan who have satisfactory Quality Control Ratings. In my 'professional' opinion, comparison of a newspaper or magazine article, especially from those of local Pakistani print media WITH listing on the official websites of these prominent Accountancy Bodies is not appropriate. Nonetheless, here's an independent source from where you can check about our firm on the web media http://www.accountancy.com.pk/newsprac.asp?newsid=658 . Feel free to make further queries. Ahson Tariq (talk • contribs
 * Ref | WP:CORP - One more thing. Here's the wiki link of Ford Rhodes Sidat Hyder which is without a doubt one of the top most Accountancy Firms in Pakistan and represents Ernst & Young (Big 4) in the country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Rhodes_Sidat_Hyder As you will see, its entry is also not supported by any 'article that's specifically about the firm', even though it is indeed one of the top firms of the country. Still its entry is there at Wikipedia. Why do the rules not apply to everyone? I can give u several other entries here which although are not backed by news articles but still the organizations are such that they merit a place at Wikipedia. I will appreciate if after looking at the independent link http://www.accountancy.com.pk/newsprac.asp?newsid=658, this article is not subjected to further open scrutiny for deletion. Regards and thanks.Ahson Tariq (talk • contribs
 * The rules do indeed apply to everyone. Ford Rhodes Sidat Hyder is equally unreferenced, and equally at risk.  The proverb "If you're in a hole, stop digging" comes to mind... :) Tevildo 15:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You asked me to provide you with an "article that's specifically about the firm and not just some listing" and I provided you with the same. So,.... Now what.....? Ahson Tariq(talk • contribs}
 * WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS The nature of Wikipedia means that you can't make a convincing argument based on what other articles do or don't exist. See also Inclusion is not an indicator of notability. Lets keep the focus on A A Baig &amp; Co., Chartered Accountants.--Hu12 16:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS I agree with you that giving examples of other articles is not the right approach. So let's shelf it. Let us come to the Notability Issue: I have comprehensively replied to that above. Let us come to the independent article request: I have provided the same. So, I ask now, what else do you require? Ahson Tariq(talk • contribs)
 * The new link is a press release from the firm themselves, and is therefore not an admissible secondary source. Tevildo 16:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That new link is "not" a press release at all. Mufti Hassaan Kaleem is a prominent Scholar not only in Pakistan but in several other countries and when the news of his joining AAB went out, we were approached by several business newspaper reporters as well as the owner of this accountancy portal namely, Mr. Mairaj Ghous. He asked specific questions and reported the same on his website. Hence, this is not a press release, but an independent reporting. Secondly, you may also visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Chartered_Certified_Accountants#.28D..29Pakistan and click on Aureole Training link. Here you may visit the ACCA section of this Institute's website and you will see that some of the partners / directors of this firm are part of the lead faculty of this Institute as well. Moreover, in the following online documents, you will find details about Mufti Hassaan Kaleem who is a director in the firm. http://www.1stethical.com/News_5.pdf http://www.iifm.net/confhome/Brochure.pdf Here are more links about the firm's director Mr. Kaleem http://www.alhudacibe.com/newsletter/jan-07/emerging_market_4.html http://www.cie.com.pk/consultancy.htm http://www.pktcl.com/en/ShariahBoardAdvisory.aspx Lastly, but not the least, visit http://www.timelenders.com/services.htm here you will note that Time Lenders Inc. which is incorporated in Chicago as well as in Boston and Karachi has AAB as its strategic alliance / partner. Check their clientele and please tell me if such a distinguished International firm has AAB as its strategic partner, is the firm AAB not notable enough. Are all these "secondary" sources not admissible too?Ahson Tariq(talk • contribs)
 * Guys, I think this discussion can go on and on forever, so I'll throw in the towel. You guys do what you feel is appropriate. However, I must commend the moderation team here who are very vigilant. Lastly, I propose that you guys may consider waiting a bit and see whether any visitor (apart from moderating team) has any objection to this article. If it is reported, then the moderating team can consider deleting the article, while in the meantime, it may consider ending this deliberation on removing the article and remove the box on the top of the article for the time being which says that the article's deletion is being considered. Regards and thanks. Ahson Tariq(talk • contribs)
 * Delete per nomination as well as the fact that the article is mostly made up of external links. (consider me outside the "moderation team", although one doesn't really exist...) Nat Tang ta 17:43, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Damned if you do, Damned if you don't. The external links were for authenticity. Moreover, The article could have contained thousands of words, but it was deliberately kept the way it is to ensure that it served an information purpose rather than commercial purpose. And the endless debate goes on..... Ahson Tariq(talk • contribs)


 * We all are missing one important point here. Accountancy Firms are grooming / training grounds for Finance Professionals all over the world. Tens of thousands (if not in hundreds of thousands) of Students of ACCA, CA, CIMA, et al look for recruitment in Accountancy Firms all the time. Do a random search of the web and you'll see that information regarding Accountancy Firms is easily available for US/UK/Canada/Australian Accountancy Firms. But when it comes to Accountancy Firms in Asia, there is no organized information available for these students. Wikipedia's Accountancy Firms page can help fill that gap with country-wise information about various Accountancy Firms. However, the theme should be informative rather than commercial. Ahson Tariq(talk • contribs)


 * Keep, because of references and client list in article shows notability. Add more description/history kind of stuff, maybe images, though, but in summary, keep and improve, seems notable enough for such a large encyclopedia.  --24.154.173.243 00:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete per nomination -- not notable per WP:CORP. -- A. B. (talk) 02:29, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete per nomination (but allow for independent recreation). Article contains no information whatsoever, let alone its assertion as notable.  Please put the article on WP:RA.  --Dirk Beetstra T  C 10:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete per nomination. Not notable. Narson 21:23, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was deleted by Coredesat non admin close.  Whispe ring  11:27, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

A A Baig & Co., Chartered Accountants
AfDs for this article: 
 * – (View AfD) (View log)

This page doesn't seem to fit the notability guidelines and might be used as an advertisment. The images on the page are dead and most of it's content seems to be exteranal links. This article should be deleted.  Wikidudeman  (talk) 10:27, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.